Behind the Scenes part 3

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583 Responses to Behind the Scenes part 3

  1. Miguel says:

    Thanks for the new page:

    Patrick I’m sorry to hear about your mother ‘s disease

    Yesterday I was touched by this story I red in a a digital newspaper

    I wish I had a parents like like that, specially a father like the one in this story.

    How having a really good father really counts: It made me cry quite a lot.

    Yestereday I was pleasantly shocked to read in the newspaper the incredible story of overcoming of an adversity by a father and a son. This is the story of a father who has climbed mountains, swim oceans and run to the end of the world and back to provide a better life for her son serving as a model for many other parents and even today , is thrilled when he reads a letter received a few years ago .

    Rick ‘s story was complicated at birth and was born with cerebral palsy , doctors said the child would be in a vegetative state for the rest of his days. Her parents ignored and began an obstacle to provide your child with a normal vido like the other children.

    Team Hoyt ‘ : the incredible story of the ‘ father courage ‘ of triathlons

    Read more: ‘ Team Hoyt ‘ : the incredible story of the ‘ father courage ‘ of triathlons – Other Sports News

  2. Miguel says:

    I am sorry the news is in Spanish ,maybe the new must be in in USA newspaper,
    anyway the pictures are good to understand the new.

  3. Patrick says:

    Thanks Miguel – it’s nice to have a little ‘adult supervision’ on here (Gretchen). The lunatics have been running this asylum a little too long now lol!.

    Speaking of stories in the paper here is something from yesterday’s NT Times magazine and I found it interesting in that it struggles with this whole problem of despair, despair about the state and ultimate fate of the world. The whole global warming, nature is dying, we are entering the 6th Great Extinction Event etc etc. These things do bother me (a lot sometimes) and I found it helpful to see somebody else struggling with it

  4. Patrick says:

    Sorry, here’s an excerpt from the story as it is rather long but intetesing in my opinion and the link below:

    Sitting in the hut, the air stale and the light almost nonexistent, I thought of something Hine told me earlier. “People think that abandoning belief in progress, abandoning the belief that if we try hard enough we can fix this mess, is a nihilistic position,” Hine said. “They think we’re saying: ‘Screw it. Nothing matters.’ But in fact all we’re saying is: ‘Let’s not pretend we’re not feeling despair. Let’s sit with it for a while. Let’s be honest with ourselves and with each other. And then as our eyes adjust to the darkness, what do we start to notice?’ ”

    Hine compared coming to terms with the scope of ecological loss to coming to terms with a terminal illness. “The feeling is a feeling of despair to begin with, but within that space other things begin to come through.” Yet arriving at this acute state of “awareness of what’s worth doing with the time you’ve got left” isn’t always easy for Dark Mountain’s followers. “Some people come here,” Hine told me, “they get very excited by the fact that people are inspired, and they go: ‘Right! Great! So what’s the plan?’ ” He and Kingsnorth have worked hard to check this impulse, seeing Dark Mountain as a space to set aside what Kingsnorth refers to as “activist-y” urges.

  5. Margaret says:

    I was nicely surprised by my mother calling me the second day in a row, asking me extensively how I am doing.

    it was a very nice call and welcome as I just finished all my chores, cleaning, garbage sorting, and ending the third go over my course.

    still feeling lonely but also encouraging I seem to be funcioning nevertheless.

    this week everything will pic up again after two weeks of holiday, music school, a friend visiting, and hopefully niws from statistics teacher..

    and doing well without the painkilers at the moment.

  6. Fiona says:

    Thanks Gretchen 🙂

  7. Irena says:

    Nunmy, Patrick,
    Thank you both for your very moving words. I had a few days of a freeze about this. (Too good to accept).
    And….Hi Gretchen 🙂

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      What? No acknowledgement that I responded to Irena’s story a full hour before Patrick did? Admittedly I only wrote one sentence bereft of flowery & loquacious words, but the timestamps speak for themselves. Personally I think I served as a gentle reminder for Patrick to make his own response 🙂

    • Anonymous says:

      I don’t understand…”a freeze” ‘too good to accept. I am totally baffled. i … I…. uh….don’t know how to respond via text. ???? MY words were moving? YOUR words were the moving…words. Is it a case of you not being able to accept appreciation? I am confused.
      Your entries are so…….Oh , uh, …I just don’t have the words for them. You bring us all to the moments that you are experiencing………..we are there. ..with you. Are you not a journalist or writer? I feel like I walked the streets of Moroco because of your entry. Freeze? really? Your entries sound so…..sane. I do not understand this therapy.

  8. Guru, You are pretty much completely yourself – no filters Ha! G.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Gretchen: It’s really nice of you to say that, but I admit I have personal shortcomings I am having a hard time facing, too.

      Nun-MY gave me some things to think about where my own anger is concerned (to a certain degree).

      I was kidding Patrick in that post.

  9. Patrick says:

    That’s cool Guru I think you may even be right about that.

    Nunmy – I want to apologize again and actually now that your ‘name’ makes sense (none of my business) I can see what you were trying to convey. And I do plead ‘guilty’ to no one much ever listening to me as a child so I have an outsized need for that now

    Gretchen – It is good to see you back as I say the lunatics (I DO include myself) have been running this thing for a little too long………

    Irena – I don’t want to cause any more days of ‘freeze’ for you so I will not say anything more right now.. Where are you going next year?………so we have more ‘dispatches’ to look forward to, last year Morocco, this year Switzerland, next year ?? I see a book in this “Dispatches from the Front(s)

  10. Patrick says:

    I don’t think people here are so much interested in politics or current affairs. But this is a story by the incomparable IMO Diana Johnstone about the situation in Ukraine and I thought it worth posting. It may hurt your head a bit but I think it is worth following the logic. And again it shows to me the many devious and dishonest uses the charge of “Anti-Semitism” is used for and very often to start MORE wars. What is interesting also to me this time not Israel or Jews using it…………It is the US which sort of explains for me how that whole ‘relationship’ works. Israel will often ‘use’ the US by charging “Anti-Semitism” but it also and maybe more often goes the other way around. the US uses Israel to start the wars they want. All in all a toxic stew and btw for anyone following this closely it is now coming out that the whole reason for attacking Syria (chemical weapons WAS bogus) What is scary to me to think people like John Kerry and President Obama seem no other word for it flat out liars and seem to have no problem starting wars on completly false grounds. This is a bad pass we have come to meanwhile real problems like global warming are totally ignored.

  11. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    What if everybody knew everything about everybody else? In other words, everybody’s business became everybody else’s business?

    Would the world briefly descend into a hellish chaos as newly-discovered damning and embarrassing information became widespread? Only to re-emerge in a collective state of joyous and mutual understanding thereafter?

    Would everybody’s business becoming completely open to everybody else be a worldwide therapeutic catharsis?

    • Patrick says:

      Not eneough time!!

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        True, true. T’was just a weird thought inspired by our new friend “Nunmy”.

        • Anonymous says:

          I spent over 3 hours writing a response to you. and somehow it got gobbled up. I do not ……think in words and so I am not going to spend another 3 hours to try and recreate my response. I wwill try and condinse it (without worrying about spelling) ……..basically …………..oh jesus GU I am just too tired to do it ,I have to gert up and go to work in 6 hours. But I DO NOT THINK IT WAS A WIERD THOUGHT. Nunmy.Love yah kido. It’s really super cool being thought of as an an “inspiration”

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            If you spent over 3 hours trying to say something to me it obviously had to be something serious and meaningful. I would be interested in knowing what it is if you want to recreate it, but maybe it’s something better off written elsewhere than on the blog?

            If you decide to recreate it, maybe you can send what you wanted to say to Gretchen and she can forward it to me? This way you can still protect your anonymity and I won’t even know who you are; I will just know what you told me.

            However you decide to proceed, I thank you for the love you send! 🙂

  12. I do read the blog every single day – I just don’t always comment . So I am always here actually ….lurking. 🙂 Gretch

  13. Miguel says:

    Thanks Jack for your nice comment on me

  14. Irena says:

    You are right. It’s all about the timestamp. I apologize profoundly for neglecting to give you a mention. Maybe even the first mention. Should have done. My bad. I will now let you know that your gentle nudgings are well appreciated, even necessary. Perhaps you ought to change from Ultimate Guru to simply GG (sorry Patrick) standing for Gentle Guru. Has a nice feel to it. 😉 🙂

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      I’m starting to see why guys could have a soft spot in their hearts for you with your self-effacing humility and your refreshingly uplifting spirit. It’s nice to hear directly from you again after such a long time! Don’t worry about the other post; I was mostly teasing and I was only very “slightly slighted” 🙂

  15. Patrick says:

    Guru – want to join me in a ‘petition’ called “Bring Irena Back” (to the blog) or maybe at least her Sunday Morning ‘guest spots’ which is the way I remember it. In my opinion she has been “Too long in Exile”…………..which happens to be about my favorite Van Morrison song (it varies from time to time) but ‘no pressure’ Irena.

    This song touches me too because I will soon touch down in the Homeland and Irish people are legendary for their homesickness. I also have been ‘too long in exile’ and I love the ‘balance’ of some of the words here “Too long in exile/you can never go home again” which for me perfectly sums up the emotions the ‘mixed bag’ involved in all that

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      Wishing you a nice trip back “home”. Good move. You’ll have a chance to speak with your mum. It will be precious.

      • Patrick says:

        Thanks Tom – that is very kind of you.and yes I am looking forward to it a lot.

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Ah yes, Patrick! Bring Irena back, bring Fiona back, bring them all back! I can’t run roughshod over the blog forever…The more that visit the merrier..

          I know you like that song a lot because you’ve posted it on the blog a fair number of times over the years, but I have to ask…

          I don’t know Van Morrison very well; was the band started by “The Doors” Jim Morrison’s truck-driving older cousin?

          • Patrick says:

            Guru – I thought I was the one riding “roughshod over the blog forever” I guess it is easy to feel that way.Sometimes you seem to feel that way but I have never felt that.

            Your’e right and well remembered, for some reason I figured noboby pays much attention but obviously you do. That song is very “irish’ also you probably missed the very end where he pays tribute to all these Irish guys James Joyce, Samuel Beckett, Oscar Wilde (all famous writers) and I love that touch Georgie Best (a soccer player) and Alex Higgins (a snooker player) anyway these are the little things………..

            I can’t make sense of your last sentence but Van Morrison has nothing to do with Jim Morrison of “The Doors” though they were both riding high around the same time. But Van now lives in Ireland and is a kind of ‘grand old man’ of music and letters. Unfortunatly Jim of course died at a very young age (27 I think)

            • THE Ultimate Guru says:

              Patrick: You obviously have a talent for sharing rich and engaging backstories, but are you sure you didn’t catch the last sentence of my 7:10 pm post? Since you worked with your moving company for 20 years, I’m actually a little worried at this point.

  16. Miguel says:

    I am glad you are back, I like the way you write.

    Patrick you might look hard outside you sometimes, but I think you are a sentimental
    and romantic type of person actually.

    Appearances can be deceiving


  17. Patrick says:

    Guru and Miguel – I will kind of answer both of you with this. I like the words

    And I’ve been kicked by the wind
    Robbed by the sleet
    Had my head stoved in
    But I’m still on my feet
    And I’m willin’, oh, I’m willin’

  18. Margaret says:

    sorry for the change of subject and yes, this is about me only.
    i have felt so bad the last couple of days for the first time ever I wondered whether this therapy was really useful as it made me feel so sensitive.

    i mentioned efore I had not had any response from the statistics teacher on three brief mails I sent kind of togehter 8 days ago, mails with some results and questions and attempt for a conclusion about a first assignment.
    yesterday I sent him a ‘reminder’ mail just asking him if he was ok, nothing more than that.
    it was the first time he did not reply for such an extended time and well, there could be many reasons, for example my mails simply snowed under by a hundred other mails…

    today I finally got replies.

    in his first reply to my question of how he was doing, he said ‘ok but very busy, and how are you doing? I am really very busy but will read your mails now’

    then he sent me replies to the other mails, with good feedback and thankfully my conclusions had been right about the assignment.

    so actually I did feel good about that and relieved about us being back ‘in communication’ so to say.
    I forgot to mention in his second mail he apologised in case he had sounded maybe a bit abrupt in his first mail, but that that was only because he was in a hurry.

    despite feeling ok about this all, I still felt tense and like something was not right with me.

    when I laid down for a brief rest, and took some time to reflect, all of a sudden it did strike me.
    I did feel hurt after all, it did hurt he seemed to ave felt he did not have time for me, it had triggered a deep and very early feeling of not being important.

    that immediately dawned on me while big tears started streaming and intense and early crying went on for a while.

    this cry dissipated all the tension, and separated the old pain from the present.

    now I feel I can simply focus on my next assignment and when that seems ready, mail it through for feedback again.

    so all the tension that was building up over the last week, and that even made me feel ‘isn’t this therapy supposed to make us feel better?’, now feels very useful as it led to this important connection.
    those tears were so big and felt almost greasy, it literally seemed I could feel how they were loaded with stresshormone, so good to get rid of that stuff…

    so, well, great therapy after all, though not always easy.

    i am very grateful this will make it easier for me not to act out in the present.

    Gretchen, it is very nice to know you keep reading the blog.


  19. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Some days I feel like I am an abandoned shopping mall. An implosion of something formerly great struggling to rebuild from the neglected ruins while a completely indifferent world is far, far away:

    Surreal and Harrowing Pictures of America’s Abandoned Shopping Malls

  20. Larry says:


  21. Miguel says:

    Some people say that falling in love, being in love is the closest thing to a crazy state.

    This is what the developmental psychologist Urie Bronfenbrenner-:

    “To grow normally every child needs somebody to be crazy for him”

    It should not be not be a surprise that we face the risk of getting a little bit of mad when we fall in love?

    • Patrick says:

      That’s interesting Miguel – this song pops into my mind “spend all your time waiting for that second chance……………….pulled from the wreckage of a silent reverie………….everywhere you turn vultures and thieves at your back…………..keep on builiding the lies to make up all that you lack………………in the arms of the angels fly away from here………………..”

  22. Margaret says:

    there is a lot of truth in what you mention, both from the child’s as from the person in love’s perspective.

    I think a lot of the ‘craziness’ that can occur when being in love, is directly related to what lacked for the small child..
    all that unfullfilled need and hope projected on that newfound person, ha…

    what makes you come up with this?

  23. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Here you go, Miguel:

    “Have you ever been in love? Horrible isn’t it? It makes you so vulnerable. It opens your chest and it opens up your heart and it means that someone can get inside you and mess you up. You build up all these defenses, you build up a whole suit of armor, so that nothing can hurt you, then one stupid person, no different from any other stupid person, wanders into your stupid life…You give them a piece of you. They didn’t ask for it. They did something dumb one day, like kiss you or smile at you, and then your life isn’t your own anymore. Love takes hostages. It gets inside you. It eats you out and leaves you crying in the darkness, so simple a phrase like ‘maybe we should be just friends’ turns into a glass splinter working its way into your heart. It hurts. Not just in the imagination. Not just in the mind. It’s a soul-hurt, a real gets-inside-you-and-rips-you-apart pain. I hate love.”

    ~Neil Gaiman

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Guru
      Interesting. Could you let me know where did you quote this bit from? Which book? Essay?

    • vicki says:

      I like that, UG. Gaiman also wrote the only non-Straczynski script out of 110 scripts for Babylon 5. “Day of the Dead” is one of my favorite episodes. He has quite a sensitivity.

  24. Patrick says:

    I hope people don’t mind…………….I saw this in counterpunch and found it interesting and pretty convincing…………….

    The United States is in the opening phase of a war on Russia. Policymakers in Washington have shifted their attention from the Middle East to Eurasia where they hope to achieve the most ambitious part of the imperial project; to establish forward-operating bases along Russia’s western flank, to stop further economic integration between Asia and Europe, and to begin the long-sought goal of dismembering the Russian Federation. These are the objectives of the current policy. The US intends to spread its military bases across Central Asia, seize vital resources and pipeline corridors, and encircle China in order to control its future growth. The dust-up in Ukraine indicates that the starting bell has already been rung and the operation is fully-underway. As we know from past experience, Washington will pursue its strategy relentlessly while shrugging off public opinion, international law or the condemnation of adversaries and allies alike. The world’s only superpower does not have to listen to anyone. It is a law unto itself.

    The pattern, of course, is unmistakable. It begins with sanctimonious finger-wagging, economic sanctions and incendiary rhetoric, and quickly escalates into stealth bombings, drone attacks, massive destruction of civilian infrastructure, millions of fleeing refugees, decimated towns and cities, death squads, wholesale human carnage, vast environmental devastation, and the steady slide into failed state anarchy; all of which is accompanied by the stale repetition of state propaganda spewed from every corporate bullhorn in the western media.

    Isn’t that how things played out in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria and the former Yugoslavia ?

    Indeed, it did. And now it’s on to Moscow. Putin’s survival and that of the Russian Federation depends to large extent to his ability to grasp the new reality quickly and to adapt accordingly. If he decides to ignore the warning signs hoping that Washington can be appeased or that the men who dictate US foreign policy can be persuaded to abandon the so-called “pivot to Asia”, he could face the same end as Saddam or Gadhafi. So the first priority is simply to accept the fact that the war has begun. All future policy decisions should derive from that basic understanding.

    So what does Putin know already?
    He knows that the CIA, the US State Department and the US-funded NGOs were directly involved in the coup in Kiev. He knows (from hacked phone messages) that Washington had a hand in picking the junta’s leaders. He knows that the White House and NATO have already undermined the spirit of Friday’s Geneva agreement by threatening to intensify economic sanctions and by planning to move more military assets to the Baltics as well as 10,000 US ground troops to Poland and additional American warships to the Black Sea.” He knows that high-ranking US policymakers have demonized him in the media as the new Hitler, a moniker that is unfailingly affixed to targets of Washington’s aggression. And he knows that the Obama team is loaded with bloodthirsty neocons and recalcitrant Cold Warriors who have never abandoned the idea of splintering Russia into smaller pieces, pilfering its resources, and installing a US puppet in Moscow.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      When I was a teenager & in my 20’s such a story would have stirred conversations with me, yet if I filled my mind with this stuff today I’d never have any brain cells left to figure out how to get what I want out of life. The players in that story could care less whether any of us here on the blog are dead or alive.

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      I don’t mind the posting, it just made me wonder what prompted you to do it. You could’ve just referred us to the article, as you’ve done in the past.

      • Patrick says:

        Tom – (searching my mind) truthfully…………..well I guess I felt if I just put on a link there people would not bother to read………….so maybe it’s my attempt at ‘forcing’ them to read or ‘encouraging’ them to read…………I have the feeling people and not only here have a great indifference to ‘politics’ or current affairs. Which I do understand but at the same time I have the feeling big and important things are happening right in front of our eyes and we don’t see………………my take is there is huge ‘propoganda’ especiallly here in the West and I suppose my small attempt to counter it……………

        • thomas verzar says:

          Hi Patrick
          Rest assured that the propaganda in the West, doesn’t even come near to what is dished out in other Third and Second world countries, let alone in communist countries. I was one of the devoted junior communists, going to liberate my uncle’s family in New York in 1960, as we were immigrating to Australia..
          Oh boy. How a person’s mind can be warped.

          • Patrick says:

            Tom – that is interesting that you felt that way. But not EVERYONE felt that way certain people like say Alexander Solyenitzen (spell) saw through all of that. Would you maybe question yourself a bit here………..are you STILL under the spell of ‘propoganda’ In my honest opinion Tom you are if the websites you get your ‘news’ from is anything to go by. I find most of them kind of poisonous nonsense but that’s just my opinion

            As far as quality of propoganda goes the West wins out completly. We have all the marketers and public relaions people and advertisers. BTW the nephew of Sigmund Freud a guy called Edward Bernays is credited with being the ‘inventor’ of public relations and basically fooling the public. See any connections there ? I do a bit……………

            • thomas verzar says:

              In reference to your comments on April 29, 3.21pm.
              You really need to get off your high horse. How can you compare a 13 year old child with Alexander Solyenitzen? Are you off your rocker? Or what? There is a pseudo intellectual manner that you employ, in vain, to denigrate and disparage anyone who doesn’t agree with your lofty notions of this world. Be it diet, politics or Primal Therapy. You make your self important statements, but generally they are based on some article you read up on, to back your notions of this world. Of course, you tend to gravitate towards authors that fit your concept of this “world”
              Almost every person on this blog has suggested to you, to look at what is going on with you, when you are reacting in such a manner.
              But it’s like water off the ducks back.
              And again, the snide remark about Freud and his nephew. What is that about? Why even go there? Unless you cannot find anything else more poisonous to invent.
              So when all else fails to denigrate me, or others, you go to the anti Semitic route.

              • Patrick says:

                Tom – I am sorry I didn’t realize you were only 13 years old. I guess at that age it can easily happen to be under the spell of some kind of ‘propoganda. I just wondered because honestly I do see you under the spell of propoganda these days at least in certain matters. Just my opinion but I am thinking of some ‘story’ you sent me about a Palestinian woman who was rushed to hospital by some Israeli soldiers to have her first child only a few years later they found the same woman with a bomb strapped to her body intending to blow up some Israeli soldiers.

                I do find these kinds of ‘stories’ poisonous and the message seems to be Palestinians (for example) are utterly ‘bad’ people. To me that is total de-humanization and done by people who are in a priveledged position that they basically have no right to. All stuff they have just taken from these same Palestinians. If you want to call that “anti-Semitic” that’s up to you but I see that as another cheap shot that is just meant to shut people up.

                As far as me getting my information from ‘some article I have read’………..well where do you get your information?. I think we all get it from someone/somewhere else. But I like to think that I evaluate stuff pretty carefully. Without bragging or being arrogant…………..I do think and read a fair amount about ”current affairs”.

  25. Miguel says:

    Hallo Margaret

    I will answer you later

    Oscar Wilde a great seducer, said once:

    “The only way to get rid of temptation is to give up to it”

    We will continue: European soccer championship:
    Bayern of Munich, Atlético de Madrid, Real Madrid, or Chelsea
    Who do you think will the winner, what team do you favor?

    Guru the images about abandoned shoping Malls: devastating

  26. Patrick says:

    Miguel – I am saying Chelsea to beat Athetico Madrid just because of expierience. Another 0-0 draw would not surprise me but Chelsea to shave it maybe in penalties
    I would pick Real Madrid over Munich. The Spanish coaching does not seem to go so well with the German way of playing. It seems they end up with a team having the worst of both worlds.
    So for the Final I would pick Madrid again just because they are a better team. Though I have to say I was not impressed by them either against Munich.
    All of these kind of predictions usually turn out pretty much all wrong which is why I have never been a ‘gambler’ at least in that sense in other way I suppose I have

  27. Margaret says:

    while watching my soap, a Flemish one, there was a scene in which a young guy has a go at his dad. they have had a very turmoiled and difficult relationship and the young guy’s emotions are anger and hurt, and he shouts at his dad ‘you don’t know how to love anybody!’
    all of a sudden the dad grabs his son and actually kind oof forces him into his arms into a strong hug until he gives up his resistance, which happens almost immediately really.

    it triggered me, I guess because of the dad taking charge, in a strong but risky gesture..

    a really and direct gesture at the same time, and in a way taking up the adult role of adjusting the situation..


  28. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    For Patrick:
    Remember our very old posts about the brilliant Werner Herzog and his movie Stroszek?
    His latest creation From One Second to the Next (35 minutes)

    Yes, yes it’s a brutal film covering a microscopic facet of my own personal agenda, so feel free to ignore if you wish. Even Patrick is free to ignore it, but he likes Werner Herzog as do I, so….it was worth a post if nothing else:

    Werner Herzog’s Paralyzing Case Against Texting While Driving…(The Atlantic Monthly)

  29. Patrick says:

    Wow Guru – I can ONLY imagine how this might affect you. I like the way it was done especially the bits about ‘forgiveness’ it is kind of amazing the difference that can make. And the one involving the Amish reminds me a few years ago there was a terrible shooting at an Amish school (done by some crazy outsider) I think like 5 or 6 kids were shot dead. And even the same week the Amish people were saying they ‘forgave’ the guy, that seems almost excessive but an amazing difference to the way life is run here now. America (ok a big generalization) is from I can see a very punitive society and unfortunatly that shows up in the numbers of prisoners all the way to foreign wars and drones zapping people who mostly are not guilty of anything. Forgivness seems to help everyone maybe especially the one doing the forgiving. Thanks Guru for putting that on here. BTW not too long ago on Netflix I saw Herzog’s documentary about a guy on death row in Texas called “Into the Abyss” which was a very very good movie. It is based all on reality and he conveys the whole tragedy of the situation wonderfully.If you have Netflix I can imagine you would like it

    • Jack W says:

      I get the feeling that your are wanting to be forgiven … forgiven (to quote you) for all the crap you’ve thrown out. There’s a better way … stop throwing the crap around, or, to use your own words stop lashing out … then there’s no need to be forgiven. Forgiveness is a religious concept … which to my way of feeling … is a way to repress the expression of a feeling.. Feel it and express it and forgiveness becomes redundant. But that needs a bit of thinking about.


      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Although Werner Herzog is really good at what he does, I do think the message of forgiveness he conveyed through the Amish story and astronomy story misses the point I have tried to make in the past.

        Both the direct victims and the perpetrators (texters) are unwitting victims of a much larger machine. It’s easier to forgive lone, frail, clueless participants in a giant societal machine…but what is not so forgivable is the nature of the machine itself.

        It has left millions of bloody American carcasses behind and the Walton family’s $100 billion fortune would have never been remotely possible without a gigantic automotive machine that takes lives away in an instant.

        Something along the lines of a tobacco master settlement like the ones levied against the tobacco companies seem more appropriate in this case.

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          I’ve completely forgiven my inner 2 year-old for struggling to understand this ridiculous problem. I still have a wild bodily animal I need to tame, though.

        • Patrick says:

          “Forgivness” to me means ‘letting go’ or ‘letting go of things’ or ‘not holding onto things’……often the person we have to ‘forgive’ is ourselves above all………….which often comes with the realization of powerlessness. To me it is the opposite of ‘regret’ for me at least it means the full acceptance of life from start to finish………….’regret’ means I am still trying to change it……………..

          About your larger points I dunno…………………I get into similar stuff I suppose with things like global warming…………….no real ‘answers’ anywhere…………..even that seems to demand ‘acceptance’……………….

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            This absolutely demands further discussion, Patrick. This is a very very sore spot with me.

            If we were playing Pink Floyd’s “Comfortably Numb” and the lyrics asked: “Can you show me where it hurts?”

            This would be a major sore spot.

            It can be healed by looting the treasury somehow.

            • THE Ultimate Guru says:

              (I said the last sentence as a bit of a metaphor.)

              • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                OK, I will try to accept that I unwillingly lost my childhood to a machine so that big companies like Wal-Mart could become really, really rich.

                Yeah I could see why the beneficiaries of such a machine would want those wounded by it to accept the results so they can continue to run their operations completely cost-free.

                Hell man, if I took something incredibly valuable away from someone it would be in my best interests to make sure my victim walked away with a smile, wouldn’t it?

                Angry torches and pitchforks would stop the whole gig, wouldn’t it?

                • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                  Fuck it. I realize I am a little stick figure helplessly hooting like an owl over it. But thanks for indulging my thoughts on it, Patrick. I will do this another way.
                  Good luck with your plane trip, at least.

          • Phil says:

            Forgiveness is maybe more for institutions making judgments and issuing punishments. I wouldn’t say I forgive anything just that I’m done with it, no longer upset or angry. If it goes on and on that probably means it’s triggering old feelings.


            Patrick commented: “”Forgivness” to me means ‘letting go’ or ‘letting go of things’ or ‘not holding onto things’……often the person we have to ‘forgive’ is ourselves above all………….which often comes with the realization of powerlessness. To me it is the opposite of”

  30. Patrick says:

    I have a feeling this is not ‘appropriate’ but I feel like doing it for some reason so I decide to go with it. My Mom is ‘failing’ and maybe fast, and my flight over there is not until May 6th. So today I got so scared she would be gone by the time I arrived so this came to me.

    hold on Momma
    hold on
    hold on for me
    and then…………
    we can let it all go
    all the mistakes
    all the confusion
    all the jealousy
    all the misses
    all the arguments
    all the hatred
    all the spite
    all the regret
    let every fucking thing go Momma
    I will let go of you
    you can let go of me
    the way we never did in life
    like lovers with abandon
    an ecstatic dance
    of death

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Reschedule the flight? Southwest Airlines allows it for domestic. Not sure on the international.

      Yeah, you’d better hurry and see her. It would knock my socks off if I saw my mother again. It would be an incredibly weird experience seeing my own mother 10 years younger than me now..

  31. Patrick says:

    Margaret – you ‘warned’ me about waiting too long. As usual I did not listen but I want to acknowledge you did. Thank you.

    Also Margaret I feel like saying please don’t get inhibited about your postings on here. I know it is easy to feel that way and speaking for myself only I want to say I always like to see you on here. You are the heartbeat of the blog.

  32. Margaret says:

    thanks, your words got me by surprise and actually made tears come to my eyes.
    i am feeling lonely and sometimes pretty hopeless lately so your words really mean a lot to me.

    I am so sorry to hear this latest news about your mom, could you change the date of departure possibly?
    in any case you have all my support,
    a warm hug, Margaret
    ps Jack, you miss out on a lot if you don’t see the value of the concept ‘forgiveness’,

    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: I don’t agree with you about ‘missing out’ on “forgiveness”. Many state “They can forgive but never forget” I would say “I never forgive, but I can easily forget” Forgiveness implies that you feel the other has sinned against you. I don’t see the sinning … just another religious concept. I’d rather feel my feelings and express them … appropriately..


  33. Miguel says:


    I’m really impressed by the depth of your feelings about your mother

    I do not know what to say. I have been stunned.

    I always thought and thought you have a deep personality.

    I hope you can advance the date of your trip or that your mother can resist until you arrive

    It is best to hasten the trip if I can encourage you Patrick.

    You’re the best player

    Good luck in this game life has put you in the position to play

  34. Miguel says:

    Yes Margaret you are the spirit of the blog

    I have been really surprised by this video where a dog hidden by a car is rescued by another one putting its life in danger, meanwhile a child is hit by a car and nobody helps him

    Where is our humanity?

    When and where we lost our feeling and our compassion


  35. Margaret says:

    Miguel, thanks!
    I can’t find any good words, but it is good to hear you’ll be on a lot of people’s minds.
    that is quite a fantasy you imagine. can’t even begin to think what it would bring up..

    until a certain point in my life the word ‘forgiving’ had very little meaning to me as well, apart from hearing it in religious contexts.
    but then at some point I got in a position where its meaning became more clear in a direct way.
    somebody had hurt me badly in the pat.
    but now that somebody seemed to really regret it and expressed that in a very convincing way to me.
    it was a very very intense moment of deep feeling on both sides, and for me the forgiving occurred almost naturally, which does not mean it was not very consciously on my mind.
    I think it consisted merely in letting go of all animosity about what had happened, and accepting the genuine regret and sorry as bein honest and deeply felt.
    it does not imply forgetting, which I will never do, and if you say you do forget old hurts I don’t believe it one minute.
    I think forgiving requires a certain situation, either seeing the person is truely sorry, or seeing the person could not help it in the circumstances. and understanding and accepting that and still feeling love and compassion to use another very ‘old-fashioned and religious’ word.
    it implies accepting one is not perfect, seeing there is a lot of good about the person, and mostly good intention, and then, if you cannot get the rest of what ‘for giving’ implies, I think I cannot explain it.
    all I can say, that comes near, are words like tenderness, love and generosity. to see most people mean well, or are driven by their own pain and victims themselves.

    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: I get the sense that you are mixing apples and oranges here in this last comment of yours, to me. Please don’t confuse old memories (from childhood/wombhood) with memories in what Janov characterizes as third line feelings. For example I can easily forget my hat when I go out … in deference to forgetting (as you implied) some feeling/s on second and third line. So NO I never forget old (early childhood) hurts … the ones I’ve brought back into my consciousness

      That you had an epiphany about forgiving after someone hurt you badly, I feel was your way of not wanting to express that hurt, but rather got into some mental ‘aberration’ about easing the pain by “forgiving”. I would rather express my feeling/s about my hurt/s and then move on. Forgiveness to me is a ‘dodge’ from ones expression of third line events

      I have a similar reaction to ‘condolences’. I don’t need condolences (to be consoled) when in a grieving state … that takes me away from expressing my grief. I would much prefer to be listened to, expressing my grief. I also feel the same about platitudes. They do little for me.

      Lastly I quote the first part your last line “all I can say, that comes near, are words like tenderness, love and generosity.” Wouldn’t it be lovely if the world was full of “tenderness, love and generosity”. Sadly that is not how we humans in the world, as I see it; behave. A lot of hate abounds. For and of myself I wrote:- There is the good, the bad and the downright ugly about me. My attempting to justify myself is nothing more than a defense … something I am very invested in trying to get away from.


  36. Margaret says:

    we have been writing on the same moment about forgiving.
    your comment appeared on the moment I sent mine to Fiona.
    I really like what you wrote. It shows clearly you know what you are talking about.
    way t to go.
    any news about your flight?

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Margaret, Jack and Patrick
      Is ‘forgiveness’ a feeling?

      • Jack W says:

        Tom: No! as I perceive it “forgiveness in not a feeling … it’s something you do … I see forgiving (the verb) as a means of:- a) dodging a hurt. b) attempting to maintains some connection to the person you are forgiving OR, the person your are wanting to forgive you. c) attempting to come across as a benevolent person … hence its religious concept: eg. ‘see; aren’t I such a good and lovely person for being so forgiving … a ploy.


        • Patrick says:

          This reminds me of how Lucifer became the Devil. Lucifer was the most bright and brilliant angel but his ‘pride’ brough him low and he became the Devil.

          • Jack W says:

            This reminds me of a moment when you and I were on a moving job for Mike Lewis and you were ‘Going Off’ about Michael Holden becoming a “Jesus freak”. Seems like you’ve now beconme a ‘Jesus freak’ … or maybe just a “Lucifer freak” … what an irony!!!!!


            • Patrick says:

              What you say BARELY makes sense anymore…………..this is the kind of idiotic non sequitor that you do more and more nowadays, hard to imagine but you are getting WORSE! There is no ‘irony’ just because I use an image from the Bible I am becoming a “Jesus Freak’ Jesus what a freak you are……………..

  37. Margaret says:

    still thinking about forgiveness.
    when I said to me it requires certain circumstances it is because to me there certainly is a limit to what I could and would want to forgive.

    there certainly are certain things I would never be able to forgive, if they happened.
    I don’t even want to give any example. luckily at this point in my life there dont seem to be any major grudges or unresolved issues.
    i think the hardest things one probably never would be really able to forgive is the hurt done to people or anumals we love.

  38. Fiona says:

    for some reason I wrote on the other page (page 2). Now I realise I do want some of you to see it. I’m still not done with needing things from people then!!
    I think I just wanted a listening eye or a seeing ear LOL!
    Oh… and an opportunity for a joke, so it seems.

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Fiona
      Hear you loud and clear.
      Starting up a business and running an other at the same time is a very big load. Not even mentioning all the household related chores. No wonder you feel overwhelmed.
      However, keep on keeping on. You are making changes in your life, and it sounds like for the better.
      Nice to hear from you.

    • Larry says:

      Glad to hear from you Fiona. I do miss your presence on the blog. Thanks for filling us in on what’s happening with you.

    • Fiona says:

      Thanks Tom and Larry !! Probably be back at some point in the future…. Maybe when due for a retreat and the panic sets in, LOL! not till November for me! luckily!

  39. Larry says:

    My boss will retire next year. I am afraid of it. I am alone. I’m feeling lost. Can’t shake the feelings.

    I don’t know what my life will become like next year when my job as I know it ends, or whether I’ll have the inner resources to make life into something meaningful for me without my job, or whether my aloneness and anxieties will overwhelm and paralyse me. I don’t even know which direction to take myself, or whether this is the stage of life to just get old and fade away.

    I feel like I don’t belong anywhere, like I never did. I need belonging and security and love. I cried for Mommy this afternoon, so desperate for her to fill those needs. She never did, not enough to banish my inner demons,

    To be able to make my life meaningful next year, I have to overcome a lifetime of emptiness and doubt. Feels like between now and then I’ll break, many times.

    If not for this therapy, I’d snap.

  40. Margaret says:

    one reaction before reading the rest of the comments.
    Tom, and Jack,
    to me the forgiving I refer to is as I said in my former comment some kind of an almost automatic process that occurred. so definitely not something I ‘do’,, certainly not with the goals Jack mentions.

    jack also came to the conclusion it was a way to avoid feelings or to avoid expressing them, things couldn’t be more wrong.
    there had been a long history of very strong feelings on the matter, with confrontations and all.
    the ‘forgiving’ was the last stage of a healing process in my case and actually kind of took me by surprise.
    so in that sense if you want to call it something, you could call it the outcome of a lot of feelings, and actually it felt like finding peace.

  41. Margaret says:

    that was quite a comment!
    hope you’ll only be ‘whelmed’ soon so we can read more!

  42. Patrick says:

    I think a lot of this talk about ‘forgving’ misses the point completly. It is not about ME forgiving YOU or YOU forgiving ME………………it is not to so do mujch with that kind of thing. To me it is ‘understanding’ usually an understanding that BOTH parties were/are ‘powerless’ and as Margaret says often then like finding peace.. Like I ‘forgive’ my Mom everything in the sense that I know and feel she was powerless to do different given her circumstance.

    Maybe another way to look at it is what does NOT forgiving mean or do?. Usually to me that is based on NOT understanding on a delibaerate and egotistical ‘holding on’ to things. Instead of seeing ”forgiving’ as something we ‘do’ I would wonder what is this all about NOT forgiviing. To me that is what’s werid and twisted.

    And I srated talking about this in terms of society too. This society seems to be full of that……………the prison system in this country seems to be the most punitive and unforgiving iin the whole world. Is that a good way to go? Is ‘our’ way better than the Amish………….it’s hard to see how it is in ANY way. I was wondering Guru if it would not be ‘therapeutic’ in some way for you to see others who were involved in your Mom’s accident or was there others? I don’t know that.

    ‘Primal peple’ as a generalization run the risk of being like that. Old peple still consumed with all that was done ‘wrong’ to them. Maturing or growing up usually involves seeing a bit more than that.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Patrick said:
      ‘Primal peple’ as a generalization run the risk of being like that. Old peple still consumed with all that was done ‘wrong’ to them. Maturing or growing up usually involves seeing a bit more than that.

      So this means you have matured and grown up considerably in the last two weeks ever since you told Jack to drop dead in the most painful way possible (preferably in his own bile)?

      Sounds rather unforgiving there, doesn’t it?

      • Jack W says:

        Wow Guru: A smart answer … yeah!!!!!


      • Patrick says:

        Guru – to me that is not a ‘smart’ comment, maybe ‘smart alec comment’ possibly. And a bit typical IMO of your kind of ‘partial’ grasp of a lot of things. You are kind of ‘smart’ in the way a day trader is ‘smart’ which is not smart to me.

  43. Margaret says:

    I think you have a point that in certain stages of therapy the focus indeed lays on the hurt we feel was ‘inflicted’ upon us.
    but isn’t it true that the more we process the easier it becomes to naturally forgive, well, for most of us?
    again i still think it is also natural some things can’t be forgiven, merely accepted if that lack of cmmunication or good intentions is in the way.

    not everything needs to be forgiven but it is a blessing if one can reach that state and you seem to be there with your mother.
    it won’t keep all the pain at bay, on the contrary in my experience, but it definitely opens new and deeper levels of the good things at the same time.
    i hope so much for you and your mom you’ll be able to sit by her side and hold her hand or whatever you will feel like doing.
    what matters also is that is what you want to do in the first place, as some things are out of control.
    hang in there, Patrick.

  44. Margaret says:

    don’t you guys see that what Patrick said about forgiving had nothing, really nothing at all to do with Jack?
    why don’t you get off his back and have some decency?

    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: Don’t you see you’ve got a THING about Patrick? And it seems you’ll go to any length to protect the guy who came onto the blog ‘blowing’ ‘ranting’ off at me and spewing his hate and venom. Now YOU want us to be all lovey dovey to this very same guy. Where are you at Margaret in all this COSY relationship with him????? Look to yourself and stop wanting to protect others … for a change. This pisses me off about you.


    • THE Ultimate Guru says:


      Hey, I wasn’t trying to give Patrick a hard time per se, but why is he allowed to not forgive Jack at all when I explained to the blog that Jack’s decision cost Patrick anywhere between $60,000 to $300,000 in lost income?

      My mother used to work in the heart of American quantitative finance before the World Trade Center was ever constructed. It was all swept away from me in a matter of seconds while I was still in diapers without even a “Thank You!” note from a car-hungry society. I’m probably looking at a $50 to $75 million problem in terms of lost income over decades’ worth of time. I don’t know how in God’s name I will ever patch that up.

      I mean, it’s OK with me if Patrick has said I should grow up and forgive this, forget it and move on, but isn’t it fair to look at all corners of the boxing ring when the call to forgiveness duty is made?

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – I didn’t mean you had a ‘duty’ to forgive, I was trying to say ‘reality’ has an agenda of it’s own, in that sense there is a ‘duty’ the duty to recognise reality………I don’t like global warming either but what can I do about it? What can you do about a ‘car hungry society’ ? NOTHING! But you keep on and on about it I get tied of all the emphasis on money too……………….you lost money ok but you seem so trapped in it. And you focus on money ALL THE TIME. It is tiring at times to me I know you have some terrible traumas but I dunno there must be another way to deal with this. To me this in a weird way also shows the limitations of ‘primal’ you have entered in a bond with your own pain never to be broken, what that articlke I posted called the ‘trauma bond’ that pissed of the Primal Ayatolloah himself Jack because of course it challenged his ‘faith’ He is super touchy and ‘religous’ on that issue

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          I fully understand my auxiliary losses surrounding what happened to my mother is tiring to many people, but…this is a therapy blog, though.

          We write our own personal graffiti here; I’m not trying to be a columnist for the Washington Post to stimulate and entertain people. I’m doing it for myself.

          Look around you. See all those people watching those insipid little TV shows with their pointless lives hour after hour? What’s more productive? Self-therapy or TV?

          To me, talking about money a lot is not tiring at all. Most people don’t talk about it much and that’s precisely what the gentrified classes would prefer. I prefer to get to the bottom of things so I can make wise decisions going forward.

  45. Margaret says:

    you are so off the mark.
    this does not have anything to do with whether it is about Patrick, I would say the same if it was anybody else.

    I find it simply mean to attack a person who just shared some deep and very sensitive things about what is going on for him,and who is in a difficult time right now.

    it is below any standards in my view to use a situation like that or even to just pick on a person in general that has enough on his plate already.
    it is a disgrace to the primal community to ehave like you do right now, and you can interpret all you want, it only says somethin about your own ways of thinking, and not at all about me.
    that is all I am gonna say about this, this is really not worth going into any further.

    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: Why the fuck are you getting into all this if it upsets you? I take it you are totally oblivious to what Patrick has and is doing about me …to this very day I too wondered that if such “crap” (acting-out) could be bandied around this blog. Where the fuck have you been?

      Patrick is quite capable of digging his own grave. leave him alone and let him … he ‘don’t’ need you “protecting” him.

      My sense is there’s something behind your defending him … but I could be wrong; if not I doubt you’ll tell us.

      My reasoning is:- I just so love blogging … and particularly ‘poking’ Patrick.


      • Patrick says:

        To me you did your own grave everyday………………I find you utterly unfeeling an ideologue of ‘feelings’ it seems you ‘want’ to feel but to me you about as far from a ‘feeling person’ as almost anyone I have ever met…………….you are living proof when Janov talks about how ‘stupid’ intellectuals are……… me you are in the real sense an utterly stupid person even though you are ‘smart’ like Lucifer. And NO I am not becoming a “Jesus Freak” that was a kind of amazingly ‘stupid’ remark. BTW it never seemed to bother you that Janov’s neurologist and co-author of his big book at the time (Primal Man – The New Consciousness) went totally ‘off his rocker’. I mean to this day I find that worth exploring or worth thinking about but I understand to you as a ‘relgious’ primaller you are in the see no evil hear no evil brigade. And just because I use the word ‘evil’ does NOT follow I am becoming a “Jesus Freak”……….Jeez what a clown!

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – you don’t need me to ‘support’ you just as you don’t ‘support’ me uncritically. I know you are a ‘figher’ and can fight your own fights. But I just want to say I feel bad that SOME of the kind of crap Jack dishes out day after day to me splashed onto you. But hopefully it gives you a glimpse of the kind of bullshit I have been dealing with for over 2 years now here. And all because he goes back AGAIN and AGAIN about how I came on the blog………………yet another ‘primaller’ stuck in a ‘trauma bond’ stuck FOREVER in the past, no ‘letting go’ forget ‘forgiveness’ just STUCK year after year ‘in love’ with his own ‘pain’ NOT healthy IMO……………..

  46. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Margaret is obviously upset and and I have a feeling something dark is brewing in the background behind the blog’s facade. Just so you know, I was not out to pick on you at all nor am I explicitly attempting to take sides with Jack. Jack is his own animal. All I am looking for is fairness and integrity. You are right that I need to move on ASAP in many ways from any “mommy” losses I may have. This is totally true in the pragmatic sense, but what the hell else can I do when I am hurting when absolutely everything has been taken away? Go smoke meth with Walter White?

    I know your situation is urgent to go to Ireland to see your mother one last time. I do hope you are able to see her for one last quality visit I know you’re facing a sad situation of your own soon and I hope you can make the most of it while you still can.

  47. Patrick says:

    Thanks Guru – I responded all the way down as I read so hopefully I did not piss you off all over again. But thanks yes I mean that and with you I have had differences in the past but nothing at least for me that hangs around, hopefully something similar for you. As far as ‘something dark brewing’ whatever my attitude is bring it on then ……………

  48. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Well OK maybe a little bit of TV is fun:

  49. Patrick says:

    Below is the paragraph I put on here before that pisses off Jack so much but anyway I think this is WORTH THINKING ABOUT, THAT’S ALL I AM SAYING. I am not ‘challenging’ anyone’s religion or ‘belief systems’ but I think this IS WORTH THINKING ABOUT………..that’s all!!. Guru I actually dare to say I think this might have something to say to you……….as far as Jack I doubt it his ‘religion’ is utterly water tight and ‘reality tight’…………..

    Some institutions, especially the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, actually encourage and seek to enhance traumatic memory associated with the Holocaust, insisting that identification with Holocaust victims should be the basis of Jewish identity, rather than identifying with those who tried to stop the Holocaust. In my book The Death of Judeo-Christianity: Religious Aggression and Systemic Evil in the Modern World, I call attention to the extreme danger of this approach: “To live in the same world in which the Holocaust occurred, the Wiesenthal Center is saying, you must accept it both as history’s biggest crime and the most important determinant of Jewish identity. But that is a mistaken strategy, because it gives too much power to the Holocaust. You cannot base identity on the Holocaust without internalizing its aggression, because you cannot take in one without the other.”[i] This creates a trauma bond, which bonds the victim not to the aggressor, but to his aggression. This is why so many victims appear to imitate and act out the kind of aggression with which they were once victimized; the abused child grows up to be an abuser

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Patrick: In years past some of the nicest, down-to-earth, and honest people I knew were Jewish. Even my grandmother’s money manager was Jewish. None of them ever mentioned the Holocaust to me. It was a non-issue through and through. In my case, though, traffic collisions are important simply because of what it did to the very person I loved the most in the world.

      The closer one is to the epicenter of something really bad, the more understandable it would seem to me to “bond” with the trauma, as you put it.

  50. Patrick says:

    Guru – I am NOT going on about Jews, please can we kind of ignore that connection (I am in ENEOUGH trouble as it is) this so happens to be the example he takes about ‘frauma bond’ but I feel it MIGHT have some relevance to primal. To me I do see that as a ‘danger’ or a possibility and in your own case far be it from me to ‘analyse’ you but I think it is worth pondering that a bit.

    I am sure the Ayotollah of Feeling will be spewing here to-morrow about how ‘stupid’ this all this but as you know that changes nothing. An empty tin can rattles the loudest! To me he is in a total ‘trauma bond’ with so many things including it seems here ‘how I went on the blog’. I mean does that have a ‘statute of limitations’ and though he might find that hard to believe as obnoxious as he thought I was (and I DO admit I WAS) several people here really LIKED it! So get over it dude!! Get over yourself dude! A LOT of things you might ‘get over’ and maybe a bit of ‘forgiving’ would be a START.(try it)…………instead of all your ‘head tripping’ and pseudo dictionary definitions You would be Exemplar No 1 if I was to try to illustrate what ‘trauma bond’ does to someone.

  51. Patrick says:

    Actually TO get into more trouble……………..Janov of course is Jewish and I think there is something there. There is a “Jewish flavor’ to what I would consider some of his more unbalanced wiays of dealing with trauma and some other aspects too. I am probably in MORE trouble now but whatever I don’t really care I suppose I could say…………….

  52. Patrick says:

    OK last one – but this thing of ‘getting over’ something. I had an issue with a guy who is occasionally on the blog refuse to say hello to me or shake my hand when I offered it asking him what is wrong. His answer “you insulted me on the blog” ………which to me was borderline comical because I didn’t or if he considers that an insult……….well I could show him something a bit ‘stronger’ than that. This was at the last Summer Retreat and I must say it happened right at the beginning and it was in many ways a kind of ‘final straw’ for me with formal therapy at the PI. Like Jack he can’t seem to get over himself and what I find SO weird is this therapy is SUPPOSED to be about having the freedom to say what is on your mind. Until you do!! So we have Jack here FOREVER going on and on and on about ‘how I came on the blog’ Again get over it dude! MANY people really LIKED it, so not saying it was ‘right’ but for fucks sake eneough of this precious prissy crap especially from a group which is SUPPOSED to be about expressing WHATEVER is on your mind.

    It is a bit weird me doing this now with my Mom’s situation and all but I am here until next Tuesday and she seems to be stable and maybe this is my ‘parting gift’. And I am stressed out but it reminds me in Ireland if someone got drunk well they often DID speak the truth not saying I am drunk I am not but I AM fed up with prissy precious primallers (how’s that for a Spiro Agnew moment!) who are so ‘conventional’ in so much they do all the whlle talking a good game…………but not playing one IMO…………

  53. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Keep up the spirit there, Patrick.

    Hope Nunmy, Fiona, and others continue to post

    I have run out of words and anger for now. Back to a lonely, difficult life.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      I should say TODAY was a lonely, difficult life. Some days are better than others.

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – Good for a minute there I thought you were ‘trauma bonding’ again………….be careful with that please……………

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Too many guy friends, not enough girl friends. I’m not gay or anything but it really feels like a sausage-fest after a while. I’ll have to keep trying, I guess…

  54. Miguel says:


    The fury of intolerance is the most insane and dangerous of vices, because it disguises with the appearance of virtue (Robert Southey).

    Jack and Patrick you behave like two vexed lovers.

    Patrick will you see he European Championship League between Bayern Munich and Real Madrid?:
    Ancellotti Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale, Ramos, etc against Guardiola, Robben, Lahm etc.. In the Allianz Arena of Munich.

    Maybe it will be too late for Los Angeles time.


    • Patrick says:

      No Miguel I pretty much watch all the Champions League games here. It is on around noon our time. So I will see it today, that’s a big game for sure. Do you ‘support’ the Spanish teams in general. If so which team especially if you have one.

      About Jack and I don’t know about ‘lovers’ but not much ‘love’ at all I would say.

    • Jack W says:

      Miguel: You may well be right … with your perception. All I can say is I’m having a lot of fun. Not sure what it’s doing for Patrick … but I would have thought he would be more pre-occupied with getting over to Ireland and seeing his mother.


      • Patrick says:

        Of course – I am STILL doing something wrong. Just leave me alone you stuffed English shirt. Such a fucking freak a ‘commentator’ on life. Leave me the fuck alone you asshole!!

        • Jack W says:

          It’s hard to leave you alone … you offer me such fun

          If you were to stop referring to me, I would be lost for some of my email fun … but then I have other ways of having fun.


          • Margaret says:

            just ignore him. he is an attention addict, and someone that uses the description ‘having fun’ for hurting someone else does not deserve any response anymore. imo, ha!

            • Patrick says:

              Margaret – I find it quite disturbing that someone would kind of ‘ape the language’ (of feelings) but do it in a mocking and provocative way. It seems like a real serious sickness and all the more insidious because the person will never admit to anything.

              I keep coming back to this thing about the Devil. The Devil aped the language of holiness he could ‘project’ himself into any sitution but not in a genuine way, more to ‘control’ and then undermine it. It was scary for me as a child and actually a bit scary even in the present time……………..a person like that is utterly untrustworthy.

            • Patrick says:

              Actually Margaret I feel literally traumatized. When I wrote that ‘poem’ to/about my Mom it was let’s say a ‘heavy’ moment for me. Something very deep and personal and for someone not miss a beat but to attack me and spew all kinds of rubbish…………well it makes a mockery of everything. And make it hard to trust (here) I think again I am better off just writing to my good friends I think I should just quit this blog all together but I do LIKE it here in many ways. So we’ll see……………but I think you put things very well and it is nice not to feel totally alone in the face of that kind of hatred.

          • Patrick says:

            LIke I am a hound and you are a hare and I ‘like’ you for blood sports, race after you and rip you apart pretty much anytime I feel like it. Because I am faster and bigger and stronger than you and did I mention I was BETTER than you!

            But don’t even bother to get the feeling you are ‘needed’ or even serves any useful purpose really, there are MANY other things I can do for ‘fun’ There are so many ways I have of having fun but you don’t need to know and I certainly can’t be bothered to tell you. But you can wonder if you like you will just never get any answers

            You can go now but if I feel like it I will do something else very cruel to you, you can just wait and wonder but probably your time will come sooner than later because well sometimes I get bored and easily distracted (my forms of ‘fun’ are not you might say creative) and you are always an easy target and most other kinds of ‘fun’ has some challenges for me………… not, you are just perfect ‘meat’ for my endless hunger.

            I am a hound and you are a hare, why can you just get that in your head you stupid hare


  55. Patrick says:

    I dreamt Jack and I ‘made peace’ it felt pretty good actually, lots of confusion and other people around but it felt nice. (Jack no need to ‘analyse” me just describing my dream)

    One thing I want to say is I think it is very cool of Gretchen to make this forum available. One of my main complaints about the PI in the old days is is was not by any definition that I understand an ‘open’ organization. I think it is a testament to Gretchen especially that she has the confidence and well the integrity to allow this. For me it has made a HUGE difference in my ‘therapy’ since coming back it is exactly what I COULD NOT DO before with bad consequnces

    I know it can ugly and stupid (my bad I am sure at times) but to me that is one of the things ‘therapy’ is supposed to be about. The ability to say just about ANYTHING that seems relevant or crosses my mind on a given moment. I liked it from the moment I found it and mostly have not looked back since. I wish Jack could start to ‘get over’ how I got on here, look I am saying I acted kind of fucked up but Jesus Christ it makes no sense to talk about this FOREVER. I am serious about this ‘trauma bond’ thing it is unhealthy and a kind of insidious syndrome. And when it seems to even apply to relativly recent events and fairly ‘harmless’ ones IMO well…………..I do feel the need to call time on stuff like that

    Gretchen may not ‘thank’ me for this………….but my feeling is she brings her womanly instinct to this and has made a more valuable contribution than all the male ‘head trippers’ like Janov and Jack and I suppose to be honest I have to include myself. I was always afraid of women but I find more and more they have a sense of life which leaves us behind in so many ways. I have found one here and there after ‘coming back’ and that has made even more difference (in a good way)

    Jeez…………this feels like another ‘parting gift’ before I leave, fleaving or the Irish leaving was a HUGE deal and so was ‘coming back’ I feel I am channelng some of that………….

  56. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Hey Patrick:

    I have a question for you:

    Would you think William James Sidis was a smart guy?

    Looks like he graduated from Harvard at age 16

    He didn’t have much of a later life, though…but his IQ was reported to be anywhere from 250 to 300…or at the very least 200 or so.

    Let me ask….Would you trust the intellectual soundness or reliability of Mr. Sidis’ musings?

    It looks like he understood 90 languages, etc. etc.


    Thank you if you can provide some feedback

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – I read the wikipedia entry. Well just in the most general way I tend not to be impressed by that kind of thing. I mean I had a little bit of that myself and I don’t think it is at all healthy for a child. You can also of course get into “Savant Syndrome” where kids can make amazing feats of mathemathical calculation but that is more like a ‘disorder of the brain’. I dunno I am just not that interested in that kind of thing. So much of it seems also to involve forcing the pace of a child’s development so he went to Harvard at 11. My reaction is I feel sorry for him more than anything. But this is just my take to me all these attemps to ‘improve on Nature’ typically just backfire. And his life seems to have been far from smooth.

  57. Miguel says:


    I favor Atlético Madrid. It has been my team for many years.

    It happens that you and Jack have different approaches for Primal therapy:
    Yours is more flexible and open, more close to the way the Primal Institute considers or ponders Primal Therapy.

    Jack your approach to Primal Therapy is more rigid and dogmatic. more close to Arthur Janov.
    So your “love” or close friendship could not last long time:

    History repeats itself
    In the first years there were differences in the way to understand Primal Therapy.

    That’s life.

    Yes Patrick you are right. Thanks to Gretchen and Barry for the blog and for being open.

    Yes, I feel too, more and more relaxed surrounded by ladies. As I understand better and better their ways and their psychologies it is a pleasure to be with them and they feel good also about me.

    There is where my pain lies, being liked, that is very unusual for me.

    Real Madrid is winning. Good for Sevillian Sergio Ramos.

    • Jack W says:

      Miguel: You say “Jack your approach to Primal Therapy is more rigid and dogmatic. more close to Arthur Janov.
      So your “love” or close friendship could not last long time:” My current one is now 33 years old. Not bad for a gay couple Mmmmm!!

      I’d like to correct you there Miguel: My approach to Primal therapy is relatively simple. To enter into the feeling zone of life. To me Patrick’s approach is all over the lot depending what suits him in the instant. There are two factors to the Primal notion … the first being Primal Theory … which by my thinking/feeling has not altered one jot (unless you bring in the notion of “Life Before Birth”). The other is the methodology of the practice of Primal Therapy which as far as I know, no-one other than trained and certified therapist are privy to.

      If you feel I am rigid in my notions of Primal Theory … I would be very interested in another version of it. So far I don’t see it. However I don’t dispute your perception/notion.

      To me Patrick does not have a concept of either Primal Theory or Primal Therapy. If he does he has not stated it on this blog. So your notion of flexibility seems somewhat crass. Just to add:- Why is being rigid to a theory a pejorative??? I can think of hundreds of theories that are rigid starting with “Pythagoras” all the way down to the “Vatican councils” Are you suggesting that Pythagoras should be made a little more flexible???


    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – I didn’t even watch the second half today the game was ‘over’ by then. (so my first ‘prediction’ came through). Ok today is the big game for you then. Athletico Madrid are having an amazing season so unusual now for anyone other that the Big Two to do anything in Spain. I will think of you then when watching today. I would say today’s game is a ‘toss up’ but Chelsea are tough in these kinds of situations so I still say they will ‘shave’ it.

      I don’t disagree what you say about primal therapy. You say I am more in ‘agreement’ with the way the PI operates, well I suppose so more than Janov’s Centre though I do not know anything about Janov’s Centre. But just going by the ‘flavor’ or feeling of Art Janov’s latest writings I would not be drawn to it. As I said before Janov is so many ways has lost ‘credibility’ and once lost it is very hard to regain barring say a big mea culpa and Janov is the LAST one I would expect that from. Unfortunatly for me behind all this ‘theorizing’ about primal therapy I feel a great despair of the prospects of life itself on this planet. I do get away from it in many ways but it seems in the end it is always there waiting as a reality for me……………….like death itself I suppose. Will human life survive ? does it ‘deserve’ to survive ? it has been such a plague on the rest of life for quite a whlle now. I don’t know if you are familiar with these theories about how we are going through the so called 6th Extinction Event (caused mostly all by us) but I find it convincing. Apparantly these great extinction events are quite real I don’t know so much about it but the most recent one was like 55 million years ago when the dinosaurs and so on dissapeared. Anyway supposedly we are now going through another of those, frogs, bees, butterflies and most fish are dissapearing for various reasons but all kind of under the umbrella of global warming. I find the idea that the oceans are dying so frightening and discouraging and once the oceans go land will go too. Anyway in the meantime we can find joy in life as best as we can I suppose..

  58. Margaret says:

    I know it will be very hard for you, but I really think it will help you in the long run just to keep writing here and at the same time completely ignore all Jack says. Also don’t even refer to him in your comments in general.
    he thrives on your feedback and without any of that te ‘fun’ will soon be over.
    if you trust his commments to be bullshit, they will speak for themselves.

    • Patrick says:

      OK but when I don’t that is ‘no guarantee’ of anything. This latest tussle all started when Guru put on that Werner Herzog video about people who got killed in car accidents and I was commenting on how the Amish ‘forgave’ the person who killed someone in their family. Jack was the furthest from my mind and I was going through this whole thing about my Mom but he jumps in a goes on about how it seems I am asking for ‘forgiveness’ and of course why I might need it but of course IF I did it is clear I would NEVER get it anyway (from him – all about him). So I ignore that pretty irrelevant right but that is just the begining of more and more ‘theorizing’ and ‘spewing’ about the nature of ‘forgiving’ and just tin general promoting ‘non-forgivness’. And to me it seems all of a piece and yes well you are right I can’t also it seems turn down a fight it’s my Achilles Heel (Hell?) in this whole thing. I have often commented before how ‘fighting’ saved me life saved me from bullying and maybe suicide it was the ONLY thing that ‘worked’. I am not ‘proud’ of it but it was all I had and when push came to shove I relied on myself and I survived.

      My brother told me today my Mom is doing better so that is good news I am leaving on Tuesday and I even hope she can come home with us (me) again…………….I would like to take my Mom home just as she took me after I was born, in so many ways we had a life of conflict and misunderstandings but blood is thicker than water as they say and I suppose above all I am looking for……………peace.

  59. Miguel says:


    I am glad you are having such a lasting loving relationship.

    I was talking about your relationship with Patrick.

    I believe Arthur Janov writes very well and I like his articles. His last one is fantastic: The Unconscious As The Last Frontier.

    What I was talking about is not the theory itself where the differences began but the consequences of Primal theory and the way to gain access to the unconscious.
    The way to gain access to the unconscious is one of my favorite topics and I am reading and working on it, it is a fantastic one.

    In the way Primal theory is applied, the Primal Institute is more respectful of the patient.


    Glad your mom is doing better.

    You are right Primal therapy should consider everybody idiosyncrasy and how far ones wants to go into his unconsciousness. It is a very personal issue that should be respected.

    The poem about your mother is fantastic.

    Yes I understand your concerns about the future of our planet. I am optimistic and I believe that, things have to get bad for that start improving.

    More and more people are sensitized about this problem.

    I would like you to stay in this blog.


    • Jack W says:

      Miguel: When Patrick first came onto the blog I am not sure that you were at that time reading it. If not then, other than you going back on it and reading it, I feel it’s best left alone. Why are you so invested on wanting Patrick and I to resolve our differences? It beats me … but no doubt you have your own good reasons. All this got resolved for me (after 30 years of knowing the guy) when he “blew his top” in an email to me … tried several times to phone me … then came round to my trailer and broke into it (which was illegal) … even as he stated it was open. He still had NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to enter my home without my permission. When, (as I saw it) he did not get his own way (which as an owner of his moving company he was used to). At that moment I made a very clear and distinct decision that I did not like this guy anymore. Too volatile, too egotistical, too arrogant too self centered and too selfish. My decision.

      Since, he’s taken upon himself to rant off any number of attempts to insult me … most of which I ignored, BUT seemingly, he’s the one that cannot let go. It would seem to me he wants something from me … I cannot be sure what. If some of you bloggers still thing he’s got charm and is so righteous … that’s your prerogative …. but it ain’t mine. That simple.

      I am aware that you read Art’s articles, but I need to say that I feel you miss the point of my last comment. There are only two, AND TWO ONLY, aspects of the Primal notion. a) The ‘Theory’ which has nothing to do with the Primal Institute or for that matter the Primal Center. It is Arthur Janov’s formulation of a theory to explain the the working of the mind after his experience with Danny Wilson, Gary Hillard, then more and more patients that he performed his therapy upon. The one other b) the therapeutic practice as practiced at the Primal Institute, the Primal Center, and some ex therapist that were trained and certified, and are now practicing on their own. Primal Theory is NOT APPLIED at the Primal Institute …. merely Primal Therapy … that neither you not I are fully cognoscente of … and certainly not Patrick. If you were to ask Patrick to give a brief outline of Primal Theory I doubt he could … other than plagiarize what I wrote in my first book for which he has a copy.

      There … that kept me entertained for the last half hour or so. Hope it does not upset you … too much Miguel.


      P.S. The way to gain access to the subconscious (unconscious) is though re-living. Nothing more complex

  60. Patrick says:

    Well MIguel thanks – I suppose in some ways me saying I might leave the blog has kind of reached the stage of an ’empty threat’. I have talked about it before and never followed through. The real reason being I don’t WANT to leave and then I get the feeling I am being ‘pushed’ off or made to leave and you know me in that kind of a situation NO!

    This thing about the Devil seems worth ‘exploring’. As a child I gave ‘him’ a fair amount of thought. He was a kind of perfect foil for a child with an active imagination and already a bent towards the meta-physical. He was everywhere and nowhere and could pop up anywhere. Had a very chameleon type quality you never even knew when you met him he could be anybody or in the shape of anybody. He was anti-religion but he KNEW religiion inside out and could even pose as religous and ape all the language etc. At a very scary level he could be inside say the priest or even much higher up even a Cardinal or God Forbid the Pope himself possibly? That would be the ultimate betrayal

    The Devil seemed to have so much power was he possibly inside ME? If he was ‘everywhere and nowhere’ did I possibly carry him inside of me? He was certainly CLOSE at times so close he could distract me from my prayers, like right in the middle of a ‘holy thought’ I could hear his mockery sometimes. He made a mockery of EVERYTHING so if it got bad eneough there was nothing left. He ran through everything and destroyed.

    This was not an everyday fear I would say. And we had ways of ‘dealing’ with him. We had stories I remember one about a man who sold his soul to the Devil for a lot of money but in 7 years the Devil was going to come back and get his. The man thought in the day he did the ‘deal’ oh 7 years is far far away but as soon as the next day arrived he was concerned, each day was like a countdown to disaster. We had saying ‘idle hands temps the Devil’ and that seemed important, to stay busy find things to do other wise he would creep up and ‘tempt’ you. Tempting was the key idea the Devil ONLY had power if you gave in to his temptations. He had NO power if you were strong and about all sincere and devout…………….then he had no ROOM to get ‘in’ get into me, inside of me

    So my challenged today are weirdly familiar…………….I am told and I tell myself don’t be ‘tempted’ don’t give him any room but he is wily and clever and has nothing else to do. He has NO productive work of his own to do, he has no family no real friends his sole ‘fun’ is getting inside little boys and corrupting their souls.

  61. Miguel says:

    Thanks Patrick for sharing this about the devil

    Your article reminds me a lot about James Joyce´s novel the Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and Dubliners. He had a very Catholic background. James Jpyce was an Irish writer.

    All I can say that there are people that disguising themselves of good intentions that are really bad people as bad as the devil.


    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – I sort of thought Athletico Madrid had lost as I came home in the afternoon and I did watch the whole game on ‘tape delay’. I thought they had lost because I’m thinking if they had won you would have mentioned it. So even late in the game and they leading 3-1 I STILL thought mmmm………..MIguel would have mentioned it. But now as I look at the time stamp it seems probably you wrote just as the game was begining.

      On that subject I found that to be an astonishing display on their part one of the truly special games and special teams that comes along quite rarely. I find myself even comparing them to the Dutch team of 1974 but NOBODY compares to the Dutch of that era IMO. Still you must be loving it I know that can be such a thrill and ‘your’ team also. Congratulations this might mean there is good things in your present and future Like a lot of us A Madrid’s past is not so good but what they have now and going forward is something else all together. I am happy for you and now I am really looking forward to the Final. If I had to bet my money would be on Athletico and I will be ‘cheering’ for them and the fact I know it will make you happy if they win another reason to ‘support’ them

  62. Margaret says:

    I am not sure whether it is useful to repeat this but anyway, one more time..
    as long as you behave like a victim Jack will behave like a jackal.
    why bother?
    what does it matter what he says at all?
    what do you hope for when you still get into a discussion?
    you’ve said it all, and very clearly so.
    remember the song, let it be, just delete as soon as possible whatever starts to trigger you, and try to feel whatever comes up then, probably a whole other kind of pain and emptiness and sadness, that might allow you to detach yourself from this ongoing torture and self-torture.

    you do not need Jack, and you do not need his friendship or appreciation, you willl never get it, you will never ever be able to trust him, no matter what would happen.
    you are not a hare and he is no dog that can catch you.
    maybe it would help you to picture him like one of those old Muppet guys on the balconee sniggering and mumbling about anything at hand.

    don’t play along, you help recreating something here which does not seem to lead you anywhere useful.

    letting go might help you to move on, I rest my case.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I have no ‘argument’ with anything you say here. Also I would like to say I feel you are genuine and really genuinely trying to help. I appreciate that very much and from the day I ‘met’ you on the blog you have always been a ‘straight shooter’ with me and we have had our fights and differences but never have I felt a meanness of spirit or anything at all underhanded. We both have our issues and we are both ‘fighters’ so it is not a wonder we have had an occasional one of those and though I may be a ‘boxer’ you are a judo person (right?) so I am always a bit careful lol……….I don’t know what a judo fighter might be able to do!

      About the matter at hand (Jack) I ask him here as respectfully and politely as I can if he could please refrain from commenting on what I write about or at least as much as possible. I promise to do the same. I tend to believe the present and the future is more important than the past or at least it is more of a ‘live’ issue and something we can change going forward. It is no secret I find what he has to say to me unhelpful and not of any value to me. But I want to focus on the future and what is especially bad about it from my point of view is it draws me into a ‘struggle’ and a ‘fight’. I don’t need ‘encouragment’ in that direction if there is ONE thing that I tend to do to ‘avoid a feeling’ it is to have a fight with someone

      As people know here I am going to Ireland I will have a lot on my plate over there, the last thing I want or need is Jack ‘commenting’ on what I write. To me the blog is literally a place to express myself NOT to ‘pass an exam’ or ‘meet some standard’ and often a standard I have little time for. I am not always ‘rational’ but so what……… me the beauty of the blog is we CAN be ‘not rational’ I am not being graded here and I find it very helpful for kinds of ‘incipient feelings’ to share them here and not immediately feel under attack which I do now. I will have plenty ‘gauntlets’ to run in Ireland the last thing I need is ANOTHER one here.

      I have talked about leaving the blog I have some great friends I can write to but it’s ‘different’ here a different reality and feeling. And I value that, I really do it is like I can have a close friend which is great but here it’s like going into the village and meeting others it’s as I say a different feeling and quite valuable to me.

      I promise to respect Jack and not comment either I am sure he does not find my comments helpful so that should not be a loss for him. I really hope the future can be better than what has gone on here so far in that aspect and I AM hopeful. I am Irish and a big characteristic is I would say to ‘never say never’ the future CAN be better than the pas

      PS Margaret – Ireland is not a million miles from Belgium also I am flying into and out of London so maybe at the end we could meet up. Good luck to you in the Summer the retreat and so on. AND watch out for Belgium in the World Cup (soccer) they have an astonishing amount of very good playes now. Miguel will let you know I speak the truth about that.

      • Jack W says:

        Patrick: Just another long epistle … but this time there is a slight change. You sound to me that finally your have some regrets by the way things have gone between you and I. To quote my mother you should have though about that before YOU started the whole saga … and you started it. Initially as far as the blog was concerned, I ignored you. I was not upset, hurt nor even bothered. I just saw finally your attempt to GET WHAT “YOU” WANTED and it all back fired on you. You did not get what you wanted to get (not even when you were in front of a judge). You fucked up royally and worse, in spite of your admirers; you are still fucking up.

        When Rick your partner finally left he maintained a friendship with me for a year or so and when you found out that he was in contact with me and not you … you were pissed. He was the first person to let me in to the fact that you were, and still are, a bully … Sally; in front of me, several times, was the second You prior comment demonstrated that admirably, when you say “……………….you can go now but if I feel like it I will do something else very cruel to you, ” Careful: the NSA is tapping all emails.

        Lastly, both you Margret and anyone else … refrain from telling me to stop blogging. I will continue to do whatever I feel is right for me; period end.

        It is after all just a blog … and blogs have a habit of shoving the shit around … Primal or otherwise … to quote you, “just get over it”.


    • vicki says:

      I like what you wrote here, Margaret.

  63. Margaret says:

    that is such a nice comparison, writing on the blog being like walking into the village.
    that is exactly how it feels to me as well.
    that was a really nice comment you wrote and a pleasure to read.
    come to think of it it is true this ‘village’ has a very ‘home-like’ feeling about it for me, a place where one can be oneself..

    take good care and keep walking these streets and sitting on the park benches every once and a while!

  64. Fiona says:

    Jack ……..

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:


      I don’t say this lightly….

      Based on my own impartial experiences with both Patrick & Jack I’ve finally come to realize that they truly deserve each other.

      It was a marriage of pure hatred made in Heaven to provide abject lessons in character flaws for the rest of us.

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – I would say that is one of your classic ‘partial’ truths. There is truth in it for sure but and I mean this sincerely I think it would help you (in general not about this matter forget this crap) to try a little harder, push a little deeper, just challenge yourself just a bit more. For every partial truth you find you leave a little bit or quite a bit out………………over time the bits all begin to add up until you arrive at a point where you are leaving a LOT out. To me you have kind of reached that point and I deep down I think you know it yourself. I don’t mean to be patronizing it is my honest take on it.

        • Patrick says:

          Guru – i thought about what I wrote here and I am sorry. Really there is nothing objectionable in what you said and an AWFUl lot of truth in it. You didn’t deserve to get a hard time about it. Sorry.

      • Phil says:

        We might want to rename the blog “The Jack versus Patrick show”. But ratings are very low, it should be canceled. How about some new ideas. Phil

        • Jack W says:

          Phil: Any suggestions ????


          • Phil says:

            Jack, anything with a different theme would be preferable to me. I think the curtain should come down on the current show. It won’t make it to Broadway. To a parking lot, if anywhere, is where it should go. What do you say? Phil


            Jack W commented: “Phil: Any suggestions ????


            • Jack W says:

              Phil: I am not on the blog trying to please or entertain anyone but myself. So for me it seems like the current “fun” is coming to an end. No big deal.

              As for trying to make Broadway or the West End; those days are over for me.

              I never did use the blog for therapy or for proselytizing … even though some may well feel that I was.. I got a good deal out of my therapy and now I will live with what I gained and had insights about for myself. What else is there? I love life and so far I am having a great time.


    • Jack W says:

      Yes Fiona: were you about to say something OR just doing a motherly call????


  65. THE Ultimate Guru says:


    I know you’re busy working on your new business models, but I would really like to see you posting more here on the blog (same for Irena & Nunmy & others).

    If you feel afraid to post because you don’t feel safe around Jack, I will see if I can wallop him with my pointy Internet stick if he gives you a hard time. OK? Just give that some thought.

  66. Miguel says:


    Hi Patrick ,
    I like very much Atletico Madrid.

    You’ll like the recent history d this team because one of great fighters.

    El Cholo Simeone now the coach of the team, was also a soccer player and as a player was also a great fighter. As a coach has inspired, motivated , some players like Gabi , Raul Garcia or Koke that are not stars as Cristiano Ronaldo or Mesi , but were rather mediocre but he has instilled in them a winning spirit , he has endowed them with an incredible faith in themselves and has provided them with a technical discipline and extraordinary tactics for a team that does not have much money to sign up stars players like Real Madrid , Bayern Munich , Barcelona and City and United ( Manchester ) do.

    True, the Cholo Simeone has charisma . Who knows, maybe has seduced his players in the sense of connecting with their your unconscious , and inspired them to get the better out of themselves.

    El Cholo is dating a beautiful model 18 years younger than him, but this does not seem to alter the life of the Argentine coach .

    The final of the European Championship League will be in Lisbon and and it will Madrileña and Spanish: Real Madrid versus Atlético Madrid

    If you have time and mood to take and show us some photos of this beloved Emerald Island.

    Margaret,in the Atlético it plays The Belgian Curtois, a gret goal keeper, probably the best, and it happens he is loan from Chelsea.


    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – did not mean to not answer you, just I suppose I don’t want to go on too much about soccer here. But yes they are a wonderful team and such a refreshing development away from all the big money guys. I will be cheering for them in the Final

      You mentioned the goalie is Belgian, ANOTHER Belgian, I told you Margaret your little country has become a big soccer power. Now they are better than the Dutch.

  67. Margaret says:

    yesterday my brother was going to come by and pick me up to go to our mom.
    I had tried to reach him, in vain, to let him know I was not feeling well, headache and a cold, and might not go along.
    but as he had gone riding his bike and then had taken off immediately he did show up early at my door anyway.
    I was just ready tidying up the place and let him in, still not sure if I’d go along or not.
    we chatted for a while and I told him I had been trying to reach him as I did not feel too well, but I kind of checked on whether he would like me to come along anyway.
    it was clear he hoped I would come so my decision was easily made.

    there were a lot of issues we had to deal with and solve at our mom’s house, but it was ok, and the main and major change is now me and my brother get along so easily and form such a good team.

    I dodon’t feel like going into details or giving examples, just want to mention it, how amazing and wonderful it is after all these years we got so much clowser while taking care of our mom together.

    he, and I, have become so much more open towards each other, which is a blessing in itself, but it also makes dealing with our mother’s increasing old age problems much easier.

    i means so very much to me.


  68. Patrick says:

    Yesterday I was thinking/feeling a bit more about this whole ‘forgiveness’ thing and for me at least it has nothing to do with being ‘benevolent’ or like ‘giving’ someone something or like ‘be-stowing’ something. Above all I would say it is based on UNDERSTANDING, of understanding the situation of the other person and once understanding is achieved or accepted, ‘forgiveness’ just flows from that, it is just an outcome of an internal process.

    This can (and does) go futher maybe a lot further…………and to speak personally then I tend at that point to then ‘blame’ myself or find my own part to be the problem. So then there is a different problem but even that once I understand myself usually I sort of realize I was powerless, it was the best I could do at the time and in the circumstances and with that understanding come ‘forgiveness’ also, forgiving oneself which to me is often the hardest part (A Catholic is SUPPOSED to be guilty lol)

    I can see where the notion of forgiveness got a bad name, in religous situations it was often demanded whether one felt it or not and that kind of corrupted the notion. And that is I think another unfortunate effect of a lot of religous indoctrination, there is often somethiing true at it’s core but the forceful way it is done turns a person against it for the rest of his life. In my own case I actually think there was/is a lot of ‘truth’ in some of the Catholic/Christian tradition (and also much of the Eastern ‘religions’ if that is the right word). But because of the forceful way they were put to us as children we then reject ALL of it for the rest of our lives. And that can be yet another trap/mistake.

    To me it is not for no reason that so many people mention ‘forgiveness’ as a kind of necessary condition of spiritual progress like anything it can be overdone but to kind of stamp one’s feet and almost on principle ‘not forgive’ is also a problem (for the person themselves) And this whole thing was started thinking about the Amish versus the ‘modern’ way of punishment. I see so many virtues of the Amish way and so many problems with ‘our’ way. It is interesting to me also – every Saturday morning I get eggs, cream etc from an Amish farm and the quality of that food is so superior to say Whole Foods ‘free range’ (so called) eggs for example. There is a HUGE difference and of course kind of reprises some of my earlier ‘themes’ the de-natured food we pretty much all eat now leads in part to de-natured ‘thinking’ I have gotta think the Amish ‘know’ a lot more than we do! Our ‘fall’ from ‘primal man’ is a very large and long story and I am not at all sure we can see ourselves out of our morass just using the ‘tools’ we are given.

  69. Patrick says:

    I was also thinking about the Amish versus say the debacle in Oklahoma with the botched execution of the guy who ended up dying of a heart attack instead. Apparantly earlier in the day he was ‘tazed’ because of ‘non compliance’ he also slashed his own arms with a knife, there was then an attempted execution and he died in the end of a heart attack. Not a good day! but sadly almost typical for the ‘justice’ system.

    Even this Donald Sterling ‘controversy’ here is a guy being taped unkowingly by his (ex I think) ‘girlfriend who does everything to trap him into saying something derogatory about blacks. And I listened to the tape and the guy keeps saying things like ‘why are you saying these things’ or ‘I don’t hate blacks’ “I have noting against blacks’. Anyway I don’t want to ‘litigate’ the whole thing but what is interesting to me is the ‘punitive’ reaction from almost everybody. It was a ‘private’ conversation, it was set up as a trap to deliberatly GET him to say something but the weird thing is he STILL hardly said anything, never approached the “N” word nothing like that and EVERYBODY comes down on him like a ton of bricks. He is even barred from GOING to basketball games………..can that be ‘legal’??……….it seems it is!!

    Anyway my point is the ‘punitive’ nature of the reaction, forget ‘understanding’ or any kind of normal sympathy. To me it is not at all a good ‘sign’ and to think we are making ‘progress’ from old fashioned ‘religous’ notions to our Brave New Modern World is completly unwarranted IMHO.

  70. Patrick says:

    I happened to hear this on the radio yesterday and I thought it was pretty cool. See these rappers have a ‘sensitive’ side to them……………

  71. Larry says:

    Interesting song by Neko Case:

    “Nearly Midnight, Honolulu”

    Hey, little kid that I saw at the bus stop one day
    It was nearly midnight in Honolulu (Lulu)
    We were waiting for the shuttle to take us to the aeroplane
    When your mother said, your mother said
    Like I couldn’t hear her, she said,
    “Get the fuck away from me!
    Why don’t you ever shut up?
    Get the fuck away from me!”
    Oh, oh

    Well, I just want to say that it happened
    ‘Cause one day when you ask yourself,
    “Did it really happen?”
    You won’t believe it, but yes, it did
    And I’m sorry
    And I’m sorry
    ‘Cause it happens everyday

    They won’t believe you
    When you tell them
    They won’t believe you
    When you say, “My mother, she did not love me.
    My mother, she did not love me”

    No (no) [x8]

    Some days you feel like a cartoon
    And people will rush to make excuses for you
    You’ll hear yourself complain
    But don’t you ever shut up please
    Kid, have your say
    ‘Cause I still love you
    Even if I don’t see you again

  72. Margaret says:

    Hi Vicky,
    thanks. I have always valued and still value your opinion, so that is nice to hear.

    how are you doing? it has been a while, apart from just a few words now and then..


  73. Jack W says:

    I have just received another email from my Serbian friend, Nenad, and I am submitting it since I feel it could be an inspiration to many. I will not edit it as I feel it shows his real self as a none native English speaking person and also from the last mail of his I posted I don’t think he will mind me posting it. He did say that for him to go and read the blog in English would be far too difficult for him so he declined to join.

    Should anyone want to respond to him, I suggest your comment be short … I will forward it to him. Here is his massage to me:-


    I hope you are fine. Tell me if there is something new?

    I want to say hello and to tell you this that I was almost mad before I started to take medication which was 10 years ago, also insecure, low self esteem, anxious, and now with medications and even in last two, three years when I started primal therapy on my own I feel very good, confident. I know what I want and how to get it, less tics…generally better in my skin, in judging, making desicions, all is in its own place, I have a glimpse at least, I dont think at all about death and suicide. I am on minimal dosages of medications. Now, I am the master of my soul and my choices, mostly. I understand humanity, why are there so much wars, suffering, I know power of intuition and instinct, (Darwin said we have reserved and rudimented instincts, I disagree. Everything we were in our history of specie we are going thru that since conception to adult period.) nonverbal brain, animal brain, animal function, I maturated in my opinion my life. I know where is my seat in bus which call life. More content. I tend to do tings I like, stay out of troubles, and troublemakers, aware of dangerous and manipulative people. Everything is in right order. In my opinion capitalism in raw is just continiuum of natural selection. Feelings inspire me.

    Sorry if I sound too confident, or arogant, too philosophical, or something. I just felt the need to summarize me and my life and to express by telling you.


    Nenad, your friend

  74. Margaret says:

    have a safe trip tomorrow,

  75. Patrick says:

    Thanks Margaret – I am due to fly out at 3pm to day and have not STARTED to pack my bags yet. Once I get over some of this pro-crastination I will know primal therapy is ‘working’ for me (smiley)…………..until then y’all will just have to put up with me (another smiley)………….

  76. Patrick says:

    Tom – I imagine this below from JH Kunstler this week might come under quoting you “but generally they are based on some article you read up on, to back your notions of this world. Of course, you tend to gravitate towards authors that fit your concept of this “world”……….that’s as maybe but I find this guy such a ‘colorful’ writer it seemed worth putting on here……….

    Despite its Valley Girl origins, the simple term clueless turns out to be the most accurate descriptor for America’s degenerate zeitgeist. Nobody gets it — the “it” being a rather hefty bundle of issues ranging from our energy bind to the official mismanagement of money, the manipulation of markets, the crimes in banking, the blundering foreign misadventures, the revolving door corruption in governance, the abandonment of the rule-of-law, the ominous wind-down of the Happy Motoring fiasco and the related tragedy of obsolete suburbia, the contemptuous disregard for the futures of young people, the immersive Kardashian celebrity twerking sleaze, the downward spiral of the floundering classes into pizza and Pepsi induced obesity, methedrine psychosis, and tattooed savagery, and the thick patina of public relations dishonesty that coats all of it like some toxic bacterial overgrowth. The dwindling life of our nation, where anything goes and nothing matters.

    It’s not just the individual cluelessness of ordinary people leading lives too frantic for a moment’s reflection about anything, but the appalling institutional cluelessness of enterprises where you’d think combined intellects might tend toward a more faithful view of reality. But these days all we get is a low-order of wishful and clownish group-think, such as this item from today’s New York Times discussing a proposed reversal of Gazprom pipelines along the Ukraine / Slovakian frontier as the solution to the Kiev government’s fuel problem:

    “………..Nearly all the gas Washington and Brussels would like to get moving into Ukraine from Europe originally came from Russia, which pumps gas westward across Ukraine, into Slovakia and then on to customers in Germany and elsewhere. Once the gas is sold, however, Gazprom ceases to be its owner and loses its power to set the terms of its sale……………”.

    Get that? To avoid depending on Russian gas, they’re going to buy Russian gas from sources other than Russia. What New York Times editor can read this story without spraying her video display with coffee? What genius in John Kerry’s “Haircut-in-Search-of-a-Brain” State Department dreamed up this dodge? Who would think that you could improve a Chinese fire drill by tacking on a Polish blanket trick (i.e. trying to make your blanket longer by cutting a foot from the top and sewing it onto the bottom).

    • Jack W says:

      So! You suggest that Primal Therapy is working for you. So! what the FEELING going on inside you?

      Talk about that … the other stuff ain’t gonna change … just like you said about my suggestion of abolishing money.


  77. Patrick says:

    I just realized the profound wisdom of Fiona…………….and very likely in more ways than one……………….

    • Jack W says:

      You mean … it’s taken you all this time to realize Fiona’s wisdom … boy1 you’re SLOW at catching on.


  78. Miguel says:

    Have a nice and safe trip

  79. thomas verzar says:

    Yesterday was an interesting day. Some of you may know that I do some grief and bereavement support work through an Agency.
    A bit over 3 years ago I was put together with then, an 84 years old Hungarian Holocaust survivor, whose husband of 63 years passed away, through difficult circumstances. The Old Age Care section referred her to my supervisor for help and support.
    My work is really about visiting her and spending time with her and enable her to talk about her loss. At times she would cry about her loss. You can imagine being a Holocaust survivor, she often talked about the loss of ALL her family. She has no one here.
    After 2 years, it became slowly evident, that I ought to disengage from her, as she has dealt and talked about her loss enough, to be able to carry on in her life. This has been my past experience already with other clients.
    And this is when my problem surfaced. I asked my supervisor to arrange for some other volunteer to take over from me and to provide some socialising for the old lady. He’s twice arranged a meeting with the relevant people in the Old Age section, however, they couldn’t, find anyone suitable to replace me. Suitable and acceptable to her.
    As before, I continued calling her and seeing her in the past year or so. Lately, I’ve started to cut back my contact with her. But I just COULDN’T cut her off. I knew by then, that it is now My Issue. I couldn’t live her all alone. I couldn’t bear the thought of her being alone, crying at night, wanting her husband and nobody there.
    Then yesterday she called. An English lady of 70 was introduced to her with whom she feels comfortable to be with. The other volunteer will visit her every couple of weeks. She is intelligent and friendly with my client. Simpatico, in other words
    I was driving to the Grumpies ( a bunch of old guys like me, who get together twice a week, to shoot the breeze) when she called. As I realised what she was saying, I was flooded with relief. Then I got tearful.
    She won’t be alone. Someone will be there for her. SHE WILL BE TAKEN CARE OF. Now I can move on. I can relinquish my responsibility.
    Hello! Who was I talking about? That’s how insidious pain is.
    I didn’t know whether to share this with you guys. It’s my shit.

  80. Miguel says:


    It is a touching story.

    I have a great appreciation for you Tom.
    Might I ask you if there is something in your current life, a significant need, an important dream that you would like to become a reality?


    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Miguel
      All things considered, my life in the present is not too bad, except for the fact, that I almost always feel like a baby, who needs to be held and comforted. My ‘significant’ feeling is that -I’m not going to make it-. It is with me 24/7.
      Materially I seem to be able to manage, sometimes better than other times.
      It feels like I am pushing at ‘something’ all the time to make it. I hardly ever dream. But I often wake up at night looking around, expecting something. Don’t know what that something is, but until I get it, I cannot calm down, feel agitated, will always feel somewhat empty. In the evenings, before I go to bed, most nights I am like a dog on the prowl, looking for food, something sweet, to calm me down. In spite of the fact that I know it’s an old feeling, I can’t stop myself.
      Why can’t my mum see that I need her!!!!!!!!!
      Why doesn’t she come to me and hold me and comfort me????????????
      I do not know how to do that for me!!!!!!!!

      • Anonymous says:

        I appreciate you. Thank you for sharing. I relate to everything you wrote. But, especialy the…”expecting something” part….but, well, I guess by now since you wrote this that you have already realised that the ‘expecting’ is about expecting your mum to SEE that you need her and not being able to understand ,as a baby, why she can’t. Yes. And even when we understand it ….. it is horribly NOT RIGHT. I too have trouble getting to the NOT RIGHT feeling myself. But when I do….well..ya’ll all probably know what …peace ensues. (for a time)

        Your taking the time to post your feelings so honestly makes a difference in my life. It has helped me grow and deal with my own …old unfelt/un….unintergrated feelings.
        I have a note on my monitor that reads: “DO NOT POST ANY ENTRIES ON THE PT BLOG!!!” But I wanted you to know that your bravery made a difference in my life.

        • thomas verzar says:

          Hi Nunmy
          Interesting. My very first reaction when I read your post was………………………wait for it……………………I felt honoured. It felt like you saw that I am not full of shit. I am prepared to share and show myself. It felt good that my posting could change your mind.
          On the other hand, it made me very curious. what made you put that note on your computer in the first instance: DO NOT POST ANY ENTRIES ON THE PT BLOG!!!
          What have I or anyone one of us done, or impinged on you to make you feel like that?

  81. Margaret says:

    this sounds like a mixture of ‘your shit’ as you call it with genuine empathy and concern for her.

    I am often in the ‘dependent’ situation of the one being assisted, and this also triggers things for me.

    i can assure you your care in dealing with the situation with respect for the lady’s feelings is very worthwhile, as a relation like this involves trust and all kinds of entanglements of affeection and dependance, specially from the helped person’s side.

    if a helper suddenly turns out to really be disinterested or indifferent that could easily be very harmful emotionally to the person in the dependant situation. so it is good you here careful in your dealings, even when part of your concern might have been triggered by your own pain.

    that pain at the same time probably does make you all the more sensitive for possible pain others might feel.

    the fact the lady called you to let you know she had someone else now seems the best of solutions, really.

    you did create the possibility for that to happen.

    it takes realy ‘good’ persons to do jobs like this in a good way, persons with empathy and a kind heart, and you definitely seem to be one of them.

    i have met so many caretakers and it is very easy to sift out the ones that are focused on and get something out of ‘being in control’.
    then there are the ones that are basically indifferent, but they are kind of a minority.
    the good ones are those who do care.

    of course there is your shit as well, that will always be there, forever, but you turn it into a ququality now.
    that, dear Tom, is a great accomplishment in my opinion.

    • thomas verzar says:

      I don’t normally do this, but with your encouragement, I feel compelled to continue.
      It is now Saturday night here. On Thursday, following my discussion with my client, I started to think that I might go the the cemetery on Friday, when I have my session with Barry. I’ve done this once before, even to my amazement.
      I started to feel I want, to be more accurate, NEED, something from my mum. It was approaching mother’s day, which is this Sunday here, in OZ.
      Then I thought what’s wrong with me. My mum is in the ground, she can’t give me anything…….But in the end, reason left me, and I had my session in the cemetery.
      As I crossed the gate of the cemetery, I was flooded with a sense of relief. In one instant, I felt comforted and somehow held. For a moment I thought I lost my marbles.
      Mum! I am here! I am coming to see you! I want you!
      I stood at my mum’s grave and told Barry how much I want my mum.
      Mum!!!!! I will come more often again! I promise! I miss you! I want you! I cannot forget you! I WANT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Then I looked around at my grandma’s grave. Then I walked down the isle to my father’s grave.
      Then I walked back to my mum’s grave. MUM! I WANT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Is it OK to want my mum? Will any of you be angry at me for not being able to let go?
      But I want my mum. I am tearful as I write to you.
      Forgive me. But I want my mum.

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Margaret
      Thanks for your feedback.
      My client called last Saturday to tell me that the lady that was going to see her, will come in a couple of weeks, but after that she is going to England for a vacation and to see her family. I asked how long will she be away, my client didn’t know.
      So it looks like back to the past again, for me. I will call in the next couple of days the woman in charge of these other volunteers to get some clarification of what is happening. But my feeling is that I cannot give up my responsibility to my client, at least for now.
      Not till I know what the future holds for my client. Perhaps I am over doing it.

  82. Patrick says:

    \i ‘made’ it to \ireland. Rather than ‘talk’ here is two ‘poems’ I wrote on the airplane. I am never so concerned with the quality of anything I write as ‘verse’ or ‘poetry’ or whatever, Just glad that I can sometimes when I feel a bit ‘inspired’

    My Mom is alive………………………..and mentally very sound but I don’t like the treatment she is getting in the hospital but I havn’t said much to anyone about it not that they would listen I don’t think

    Irrigate me
    with your waters
    your tears rain on me
    to ease my passage
    as soft as the dew
    or as hard as sleet
    so I know you
    are there………………….

    Pushing the envelope
    in every which way
    in all the wrong ways
    but you know
    that old saying is true
    “A fool in his folly becomes wise”
    I had to find my wisdom
    and I found it in you
    every step of the way
    even before I had steps
    squeezing me gently
    into life…………………….

  83. Miguel says:

    Thanks Tom for your clarity.

  84. Miguel says:


    Good you arrived well and your mother is mentally aware

    Even if I do not know very well what you’re talking about in your poem, you use a deep and brilliant metaphors.


    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Miguel – I don;t know about ‘deep and brilliant’ but hey I’ll take it!. I just like the ‘process’ I don’t often feel ‘creative’ so it’s special to/for me when it does. Kind of gives me a glimpse of what life could or might really be like……………….

  85. Margaret says:

    I have missed that poem because of a problem with a local server.
    I would like to read it, so if you could mail me a copy that would be really nice!
    how does it feel to be back there?

    due to that f.. server I also lost part of the latest comments so iI haven’t heard a word since you left L.A.

    how is your mom?
    my guess is she must be so glad you are there.

    • Patrick says:

      \Margaret – I can relate to your problems with ‘servers’. I have a bit of a mini-nightmare here because of stuff like that. The problem is I can’t get into my email, Microsoft have ‘detected’ I am trying to log on from a different location so ‘no can do’. Duh!

      So they are making it SO difficult (impossible still at this point) to get on it. And there are one or two people in the world I really like to write to most everyday and now I can’t do that at least at the moment. Also there is a few ‘unfinished business’ types things in LA I can’t attend to – super frustrating and I can be impatient!!

      In general with computers it seems these companies want to control you and try to make things easier but end up making them more difficult. Plus I get the feeling all the complaints I sent them are actually being read by other computers (cheaper it seems that paying a guy 10 dollars a week in India lol) so the answers back make little or no sense. Frustrating in the extreme.

      About my Mom…………………It’s like I don’t want to say so much right now. Between jet lag and computer problems and all the new things I am dealing with everyday it all a bit too much right now. But on a kind of general note I find it sad how old people are dealt with including my Mom. Being pumped full of meds, constant ‘procedures’, tests, bad air food and light, it’s pretty depressing. And I think back to the way people lived and died in Ireland say even 50 years ago seemed so much more dignified I suppose I could say. People more just got old (not sick so much) and died surrounded by their children and greanchildren. Now everything is ‘medicalized’ the ‘feeling’ aspects of life are downplayed the technical ‘medical’ aspects seem too important to me at least.

      So I start to get into this thing about how the way people live is almost guaranteed to make them sick and here comes the ‘doctors’ to the rescue. Except they don’t or not really the way I see it. It might seem strange I am not taking more ‘personally’ but anyway I don’t feel like it right now not at least so ‘publicly’………………………I am sure you will hear more from me (some people sighing!).

      The weather is a bit of a shock too, winds and rain here most of the time, some spots of sunshine but all of this is a lot of change to deal with. But I am comfortable with my brother and we get along well, we have a similar kind of humor and just general take on things. But so far things are no so easy…………… if only I can that email up things would start to smooth out a bit. It’s ironic too I told everyone in LA and elsewhere just email me that is good all over the world and well so far it’s not!

  86. Margaret says:

    thanks to Fiona copypasting and sending me the latest entries I missed out on I am finally back up to date.
    Tom, what you wrote in reply to Miguel’s question was so very touching, and heartbreakingly painful.
    it did resonate with me too somehow.
    and Nunmy your response was equally touching.

    so glad to hear staying with your brother sounds nice.
    and yeah, I know the kind of problems you are dealing with, computerwise, I kind of halfexpected something like this might happen.
    it is a real drag, I think the only solution might be to work with g-mail or hotmail maybe, but you better ask someone else, and hopefully after you warn the people that matter they can then shift to contacting you in that way for the moment.

    when I go to the U.S>. I would have the same problem, but we got around it by working with someone’s server from his work, for my mail out.
    getting my mail in seems less of a roblem abroad.

    I hope you find a solution soon, and yeah, some of that rain gets all the way over here as well and is actually right now leaking through my roof at a pace of two buckets a day…
    landlord promised to search a professional roof repair man, but he gave no time set…Fiona, thanks a million for sending me the updates of the blog, things function again for the moment luckily, knock on wood…

  87. Patrick says:

    Since \i have been over here I have renewed my love affair with……………………..the hot water bottle!! I have gone to bed with it each night so far and start to like it so much I had a little afternoon nap with it today. I thought it would just be a night thing but the affair starts to heat up already in the afternoon. Don’t anyone worry for me it is just the cold weather! I thought all these people were exaggerating but no it really is cold (and wet, and windy, and horrible!)

  88. Margaret says:

    while going over for the hopefully last time over the chapter about schizophrenia, and about how sometimes voices with ‘comments’ are heard it reminded me of a group I once was in at a retreat.
    I was getting into some feeling and talking and crying about it, until the attention moved to another person.
    I was still in the feeling and tearful and at the same time thought I heard someone make an annoyed observation about me, like:’what’s with her?’
    I spoke up asking who had said that, but barry responded noone had done so and I was still in a feeling.
    with this memory on my mind now, I started feeling again how in my childhood there had been many similar situations, where I might have been distressed and crying, to then be criticized and ridiculed by some remark about me.
    I tried to think of what I could do in a group in that feeling to go deeper in it, imagined going out of the room but that seemed not right, imagined other approaches but they did not feel right either, until I kind of pictured myself just doing nothing for attention but folding into myself and the feeling that went with it and that I worded was just a faint ‘help’.
    that made me cry and seemed to be the, or a missing piec
    this kind of strikes me as it for me also reflects a very deep feeling of distress about my core self, like in ‘am I crazy?’ or ‘am I despicable and ridiculous?’, shaking the fundaments of who I am.
    it points out how very destructive it can be to be made fun of as a small child while being distressed, or of being scolded for it.
    it attacks and undermines the basis of one’s very true and open and vulnerable self, and I seem to be starting to realize myself how on some level it made me feel there was some repulsive craziness in me, centered around my need or sadness or anger, it all could make me be rejected and devastated with ridicule and scorn.

    again it makes me cry,te hopelessness of the situation for a three or fouryear old, when nothing can be done.

  89. Margaret says:

    haha, yes, I have a hot water bottle too, and love it too!
    not now as I have the gasheater on but on colder winter nights it is delicious, and can only be beaten by one warm purring cat by one’s side.
    on the other hand the cat does not let hersolf be shoved around from belly to feet to back and back, smiley!

  90. Margaret says:

    your post about needing your mom touched me very much.

    as a kid here is nothing else to do but to suffer until the breaking point where it turns into that nagging old pain we all struggle with.

    why the hell didn’t your mom pick you up and held you close???


    • thomas verzar says:

      I suspect my mum didn’t pick me up because my dad would’ve told her to let me cry, get used to ‘not having my way’. She was too young to have me after the war, 18. She turned 19 2 months after my birth. she was never strong enough to stand up to my dad, who thought he knew everything. But he didn’t. In the last few months of her life, mum told me that she wishes she followed her instinct at times, and not listen to my dad. Unfortunately, by this time it was way to late. She was dying and I was in way to much pain, hurting.

  91. Patrick says:

    So far this song seems to sum up how I expierience Ireland…………………………………..

    • thomas verzar says:

      Moverall impression of the song was………………….despondency.
      Is that right? Is that how you feel? Or am I way off track here?

      • Patrick says:

        Tom – not sure I would say that. It’s more the sheer physical difference(s) of being here versus sunny all the time LA. It’s a big adjustment, any change is difficult anyway but the strong winds and almost constant rain is a MAJOR change……………………….but I am ‘adapting’ just takes some time I suppose.

        Yesterday was a bit nicer and there was that effect that I love of the shadows of the clouds racing all over the countryside. I used to love watching that as a child even and yesterday I had a kind of insight into that………………..the freedom and carefree kind of feeling of that I wished my thoughts and feelings could flow as freely, unpredictably and spontaneously. So it has it’s good points…………………

  92. Patrick says:

    Margaret – I went to bed for a nap with my hot water bottle at 5pm yesterday then went out around 7pm and ended up going to bed at 12:15 am and the bottle was STILL a bit warm. That’s amazing ‘technology’!!

  93. thomas verzar says:

    Aren’t you a bit old to be out so late? What will people think?

    • Patrick says:

      Ah it’s just once in a while Tom for special occasions. Like meeting my sisters I had not seen for 5 years but your’e right I am not usually out/up so late.

  94. Margaret says:

    what you say about your mom is so very sad.
    wish I could say more..

    about your lady client I don’t think you are overdoing it. the fact she called you must be because she feels scared somehow.
    you did all the good things also by calling the organization.

    still about your mom in a way I find it comforting, a little at least, that however indirect the subject seems to have been adressed between the two of you.
    how do you feel towards her knowing that?
    no need to answer here, but maybe it might help talking to her as if you were sitting by her bedside again before she died, and as if anything could be said?

    not that it will take the old hurt away, but it might help you in some way maybe?

  95. Miguel says:

    Margaret I liked the clarity and intensity of what you felt in the group of someone who had made comment and probably you thought it was about you, you feeling vulnerable in that situation.

    I’ve always been very shy and had a difficult time in group, because in them there is a catalyst,- enhancing of feelings.

    For me the situation most similar to groups has been to go to a tiny little disco on Sunday afternoons. Before going to that place I felt bad and thought I could be rejected, not liked for the people in there, and it was difficult for me just begun talking to a woman, especially if she was pretty and good looking, without having been introduced to her or not knowing what to say nice words so that I could get their attention in a place where there is competition and so many stimulus, how to begin a conversation with them, how to ask to ask for their telephone number and for a date.

    After all I thought men and women who are going there do because they’re lonely and want to make friends and communicate. When I was in there I felt a carousel of emotions over me and I was excited and felt good dancing “Rasputin” by Boney M.

    I managed to make friends and contact with the girls, dance and just have a good and also feel a range of emotions. I was just tired of being alone and wanted to make friends specially with women that for me for different reasons was very difficult but I am happy I have made a lot of progress on that field.


  96. Miguel says:


    The story with your mother is sad.

    If babies and children can reign on their mothers as marahas or pashas of India, there would be so much sadness and men should not seek the services of prostitutes.


  97. Margaret says:

    just came home from my exam of clinical psychology part 1..

    will have to wait now for the results for about two weeks…

    a lot of devious tricky questions of course, as it is multiple choice and they try to set one up..

    feel exhausted right now but hope I passed..

    there are only a few courses left that are already available for visually umpaired persons, so soon I will hve to find a solution for that problem as Belgium refuses to pay for ‘distance education’ and the Netherlands refuse to pay as I am not Dutch so they only pass me through what they already transposed for a Dutch blind person, and seemingly those did not get too far in the latest courses…

    oh well, problem for later..

    Miguel, that was a nice and also very clear post of yours, haha, I liked the detail about the Rasputin song!

    you sound very good, and that is nice to hear!

  98. Margaret says:

    where is everybody?
    I did not mention all the names, got tired of typing, smiley.

    Nunmy, is that postit still on your screen?

    MI feel lonely and miss your comments!!
    Guru, Larry, Vicky, Jo, and of course the regulars,?

    Miguel, your hip must be very well when you have a good time at the disco, that’s nice!!

    sorry if I

  99. Margaret says:

    sory for messing up my last comment, too tired to check and it got tossed about..
    never mind it,s ununderstandable parts..

    still, where is everyone??

  100. Margaret says:

    is the blog really so silent or are the mails not coming through?

  101. Anonymous says:

    It is silent Margaret.


  102. Anonymous says:


  103. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Well hi Margaret, Larry, etc.

    Let’s see…my dad flew off to Vegas late last month. He became acutely ill from pneumonia in his hotel room and he calls me up, sounding like a newfound zombie entering the ranks of the dead. “Go to the hospital immediately”, I say. “No, it’s OK. I can catch the plane home tomorrow.” He was in sad, sad shape when I picked him up at the airport. Very weak.
    I take him to the doctor. The doc says dad was lucky he didn’t keel over in his hotel room at the time, but instead of hospitalization dad was prescribed a strong round of antibiotics.
    I’ve been watching over him and tending to his needs ever since.
    Dad is much better now and I am anticipating a full recovery. He should be back to normal in a few days, but any recurrence of pneumonia would be deadly.

    Other than that, it’s campfire time with friends and …..

    Oh yeah, a scowl-worthy story for me. I took $500 to a video poker machine yesterday, steadily escalating the stakes as I won…I won about $937 in a half-hour. I stand up and ask myself, “Should I go home now? Leave the casino? Nahh…It’s all good. It’s safe to be here.”

    So I sit back down and gamble more….lose…lose…lose…lose….now I’m down to $400. I start winning again, win more, win more, escalate the stakes, win more, escalate, Come on! Goddess of Greed!!
    “Whoa! What is this?” $2,100? $1,600 winner in three hours? Should I leave now?

    Something overpowered me….I’m reduced to a craven, ravenous animal. The casino has me in their Skinner’s Box.
    3 hours later I leave with 50 cents in my pocket.

    At least I didn’t lose more than my allocated budget, but still very disappointed I didn’t leave while far ahead and wondering what compelled me to stay in the casino.

    Now I am re-reading Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schull and I am struggling to understand exactly why the poker machines are such powerfully addictive trance-induction devices.

    I didn’t want to be in a “machine zone”. I wanted to leave. How was I compelled to stay? And why was the urge to stay there so strong that it overrode my own best interests and rational decision making?

    How did my own free will become hijacked, so to speak?

    It pisses me off that my own mind was being played with by casino marketing geniuses without my total permission.

    Interesting stuff with a lot more details being left unsaid, but I must go now…

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi UG
      Your dad. I presume he went to Vegas to gamble, right?
      What I pick up on, rightly or wrongly, is that he shirked his responsibility for himself, right at the outset. As soon as he called you, he transferred responsibility onto you.Your advice was correct for him to go to the hospital immediately. But oh no. That’s not what happened.
      He came home for his son to look after him.
      I am not surprised at your reaction after, by going gambling. Trying to get something. You must’ve been screaming inside. Howling. I know i would. Who are you going to ‘get from’?
      Please excuse my meanderings here. I could be way off base. But you sound like you are hurting. At least to me.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:


        Well I said what I said because I felt bad for Margaret yearning for more blog posts overall, so I figured I’d just make an update on things.

        After my dad explained to me why he wanted to fly back home, it made sense to me. I can’t comment on why he went there, but when he explained why he wanted to come back home his reasons were very sound (just trust me on this!). I don’t look at dad as a selfishly demonic infantile force manifested as a black hole of endless need. He does have his emotional shortcomings, to be sure, but I was glad to help him because he had no control over the pneumonia at all.

        The gambling story was simply an interesting sideshow, but it does leave me shaking my head at how I, as a frail lone human, became so psychologically submissive to something much more powerful than myself. In other words, these casinos have spent untold millions of dollars studying every conceivable variety of human emotional weaknesses and needs in ways I really don’t totally understand.

        You’re right, though, that I shouldn’t have gone on an outing like that while dealing with dad being sick.

        In my eyes my dad has been totally absolved of all his sins despite his occasional annoyances. The things I howl and scream about are much more serious than this (remember our little spat between you, me, Patrick, and Daniel?).

    • Anonymous says:

      It sounds like it was a scary time for your Dad UG.

      Since you know that on average the house wins, it must be that you gamble for the entertainment of it, or a deep rooted need for quick easy gains, unless you figured out a way to shift the probabilities in your favour. 🙂

      I never go to the casino. Too boring. I’d rather read a magazine.


      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Deep rooted need for quick, easy gains. Yes. Didn’t I mention that $50-$75 million in lost household income because of what happened to mom? Yeah, a small act-out, I guess…
        Instant validation….Split-second wins are like a shot of morphine.

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          A big split-second win is like the opposite of a fatal traffic collision. A happy accident. The perfect symbolic antidote, perhaps.

    • Jack W says:

      Guru: For what it’s worth it’s called “NEUROSIS” trying to get that, that you thought you deserved which was/is still, just a symbol of that that you never got.

      Again for what it worth pondering … express the feeling of what you were so terribly deprived of … there is NOTHING else. All else is a “fools game”

      All those guys; Casino owners, big business men, and some small business men, politicians et al are in the same game and play on our ‘neurosis’ and it’s so easy.

      Hope your dad recovers.


      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Jack: What I was discussing yesterday was something more specific to a technology that hadn’t even been invented when Arthur Janov wrote The Primal Scream. I don’t consider myself easily fooled by many things anymore, but when I realize I am being fooled by something I feel compelled to learn more about the machinations behind the trickery.

  104. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Why is it so hard to get ahead in life, yet it’s so easy to be destroyed?

    What can take years, even decades, to build can be destroyed in seconds. So yeah I can definitely see the lure of a quick hit or a quick gain as a soothing antidote to that ultra-harsh reality.

  105. Margaret says:

    well, after reading all these comments, up to yours saying something about the gambling being like a fix of morphine, it also seems illustrative how you could not stop after winning what could be called a fair amount in comparison to what you started with.

    I mean, doesn’t this show how despite the addictive nature of the craved fix, it would never be really satisfyingly enough, would never give what is really looked for to start with.

    no judgement being formed here at all as I have my own set of struggles with addictive behaviours of several kinds, and knowing does not take away the craving for momentary relief or hope.

    thanks for sharing this in any case, very honest and real.

    Tom, your first reply did resonate with me though, I can relate to the emotions you mentioned there.

    it is tricky ground as I also relate to UG’s immediate defense of the sound reasons of his dad, the parent’s ‘manipulations’ are always sooo entertwined with our true feelings of love and concern and our own set of needs.

    i in my own case find it hard too to ncorporate the growing reality of time being limited.

    in some way I seem to be getting some peace with the idea, and on another level it probably freaks me out.

    then there is the almost forbidden notion of freedom that will finally occur, I say forbidden because part of me feels I should not even write this down, but it is definitely true part of me feels like the burden of some kind of struggle will be lifted when mom … find it hard to write the words…

    but I am also aware of the huge drowning wave of sadness that will also overwhelm me when it occurs, and all kinds of despair and loneliness and need.

    so fear is my key word I guess right now…

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:


      OK, I don’t think I am rushing to my dad’s defense; I believe he was being quite reasonable in his actions. I didn’t share the exact reasons why he came back, which would help explain things. He’s almost fully recovered now so this is a moot point, really.

      As for gambling, I generally just look at it as an interesting hobby. I’ve had bad trips like the one I mentioned above, but I’ve also had some brilliant ones, too! There have been plenty of times where I win a bunch and just quit for a while. I’m simply trying to understand why I sometimes don’t quit when I should and Natasha Schull’s book seems to hold valuable clues in that regard. I really hate those trips where I am nicely ahead and the trip turns into a loser. Sometimes I can pack my bags and leave when I should, sometimes not.

      • Larry says:

        I can’t help feeling that looking for those clues about how the casino design gets you to stay when you should leave, is like looking for clues for how the processors and marketers get a hungry man to want to eat their food. I’m sure it’s easy enough for them to do when their victim harbours an aching deep black empty pit that needs to be filled.


        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          …”An aching deep black empty pit that needs to be filled”…

          Sometimes your descriptions are so good, Larry, that they can become self-fulfilling prophecies. If you didn’t write these words, maybe the pit wouldn’t be there?

          I try to learn a new lesson from every losing trip. I learned something new from this one, so I have moved on…

          • Larry says:

            OK UG. I get where you are coming from.

            • THE Ultimate Guru says:

              If you didn’t write these words, maybe the pit wouldn’t be there?

              I hope you know I was kidding you here, don’t you Larry?

              • Larry says:

                No I didn’t know you were. It’s nice of you to let me know, UG. I don’t want to write or say anything that unnecessarily hurts or angers anyone. Life is too short to waste it in arguing with people. After your May 17, 7:51 am reply, I just want to give you a hug. Thanks.

  106. Patrick says:

    I had a somewhat interesting thing happen today………………….I am visiting my Mom in hospital everyday and she is ‘surviving’ I suppose but not in good shape and being plied with lots and lots of ‘drugs’ which to my way of thinking means she CANNOT get better anyway……………………….

    I have a little problem myself with my knee, twice I hit it pretty hard on the pavement, falling off my bike anyway it is a nasty sore and since I am in the hospital pretty much everyday I decide to get it ‘treated’ The first day the doctor says we will do an x-ray on your knee and I go ‘oh I don’t think that is necessary it’s only a surface bruise’ So he goes ok we won’t do it then.
    They ‘treated’ it he gave me a prescription for (oral) anti-biotics.

    So I decide to myself well I will ignore that, I see no reason to do it. So today the doctor says and you are taking your anti-biotics and I go well no actually I am not, I don’t think I really need that.
    And he goes ‘well to tell you the truth I would not take them either’ and I go ‘huh really?’ and he goes we have to do that for ‘protocol’ And kind of a ‘funny’ story but not so funny for my Mom, they are giving her anti-biotics (2 different kinds) blood pressure meds, probiotics, blood thinners and several more for pain etc and others I don’t know what for.

    So I said to her doctor (a different doctor) this evening I am concerned about the amount of drugs she is being given. One day I counted 11 tablets and that was in just one session. There were several others. Anyway the doctor leans across and says to me ‘confidentially’ you know I agree with you but our hands are tied. She says we all end up taking loads of these. Then she went on to explain that they have no choice but to ‘treat’ if anything (blood pressure, temps etc etc) go outside certain narrow bands………………….so this really bothers me but nothing I can do. It’s like she CANNOT get better the way she is being ‘treated’………………….

    • Jack W says:

      Just a little story of my own from way back when in the 1970’s. I was living In Ibiza in a remote farm house, the closest village being 3 km away. For the very first time a young doctor was assigned to the village and was meant to serve four other villages. He spoke English and we kind of got on very well with one another. Then one day he came to my house feeling very bad as he’d encountered his first death.

      An old woman in the village living with her children in a nuclear family one day just left the house and went to lie under her favorite olive tree. She knew she was dying. Her son now knowing there was a doctor in the village sent for him and he my friend, the doctor, sent for an ambulance and she was shifter off to a hospital, sirens blazing; to the main city of the island where she was distracted by bight light 24/7 and kidney dishes. Two days later she died and my doctor friend came to talk to me feeling very bad and sad. I yelled at him and said “why the hell did you not leave her under her favorite olive tree to die? … she knew she was dying and could have gone surrounded by her very own and familiar surroundings. My friend was even more shattered and said “My training did not permit that”

      What’s so terrible about death? It’ll happen to the best of us one day. For some, when it happens to me; it has been wished it’ll be long, miserable and painful. It well might be … but when it’s all over I will be well out of any misery wished upon me. I will, as I deem it … be beyond all feeling … for ever.


    • Anonymous says:

      A hospital is the last place to go to get well. Once admitted, your control of your life goes out the window and you better have someone to advocate for you. I’ve heard doctors say the same on radio shows.

  107. Margaret says:

    that is quite a story.

    it is amazing how open these doctors were to you, they must feel retty bad with these protocols themselves.

    have you talked with your sister, the doctor, about whether maybe she can have some influence on diminishing at least some of the medication?

    it is important of course your mother is not in pain.

    hang in there,

    • Patrick says:

      Yes Margaret she had been trying a bit. But the thing is my sister too is very ‘imbued’ with the medical model if I can call it that. She is very thorough and in many ways a ‘good doctor’ but I find her incurious about a lot of ‘medical’ types things and also very much hews to standard medical ‘wisdom’ down to the low fat dogma to take just one example……………..

  108. Patrick says:

    Speaking about ‘medical models’ I found this somewhat interesting as regards ‘psychiatry’

    • Jack W says:

      Just read the link that you posted and what is so, so, so interestingly stupid is that everyone of these highly educated, ‘head trippers’ know only what it is NOT nor what really works … but admittedly clueless as to the very cause of the malady.

      I know that one and one does not equal three … or even four … or even five … and certainly not one. But that does not make me a highly educated mathematician. We somehow missed the train … it already left the station!!!!!


  109. Margaret says:

    maybe this is more your kind of game, just look at it like being conditioned with a variable ratio and variable time interval scheme of reward.
    very efficient in making those poor rats push their handles or pull the one-armed bandit’s lever..

    you of all people should know the odds are against you, but well, it seems like you have to explore something here, so I just wish you success in your search.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Margaret: Believe me when I say this is not an important pursuit in my life or anything. It’s like going fishing or rock-climbing; an intriguing diversion that ultimately has little meaning on its own. There’s more I didn’t say, too, but ….

      One thing I learned about it that made sense to me: The human brain craves novelty Constantly new and fresh components and elements introduced add to the addictive powers of the game because there are millions of possible different hands available at any given time. There is a certain brain stimulation with being confronted with new and novel situations all the time when poised against the backdrop of a humdrum, mundane everyday life.

      • Larry says:

        That does make sense.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Just this blog is a good example: Peoples’ brains seem to crave a variety of fresh, new content here regularly, etc.

        People seem to begin to feel deprived when it’s the “same old stuff” without anything new or when it’s a total blank all the time, etc.

        • Larry says:

          The blog does fill a need for human contact, self-expression, acceptance and being heard in a way that sometimes leads to self- discovery, that is probably lacking in the rest of our lives or we wouldn’t be spending time here.

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Larry: Sure, there may be other psychological needs being filled by this blog I didn’t talk about, but I brought up the variety & novelty part to better explain what I was saying about the hard-wired need to constantly see novel, fresh, and new games inside those poker machines, etc.

            I’m guessing it’s probably a hard-wired need for human species survival to have a steady diet of seeing or encountering constantly new and fresh things for overall life enhancement over the long term, etc.

            I paid $800 tuition to learn this lesson some months ago. My free gift to you today.

            • Larry says:

              I guess I’m saying that I don’t think it’s the case that the human species is hard-wired to constantly see novel, fresh, and new. I think that for survival, the human species, any species, has to acquire from its environment whatever it takes to fill its biological needs. For instance, a bird is biologically driven to need to find food, shelter, a mate, build a nest, and raise a family. When needs are met, life is “enhanced over the long term”, whether we are talking about birds or people.

              I’m more struck by your statement on May 17, 2014 at 8:10 am, that “There is a certain brain stimulation with being confronted with new and novel situations all the time when poised against the backdrop of a humdrum, mundane everyday life.”. You said so much there. To me you are saying that the degree to which one is addicted to poker machines is directly correlated tot he degree to which one’s life is mundane and unfulfilled.

              My life is a roller coaster of feelings, from deep despair when I try but am unable to meet my needs, to peace, joy, and a sense of oneness with the universe when I try and am able to meet my needs. For me, compared to real life, the roller coaster experience from gambling is pretty lame and fleeting. I see gambling as an easier but poorer substitute for the game of winning and losing in real life, but a surrogate experience one is drawn to when satisfaction in real life is hard to achieve.

              I do have my addictions, ultimately unsatisfying, that I often fall back into when my life is empty, and that dissolve and are forgotten when I achieve satisfying connection with real life and people.

              • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                Larry: So many things I could say here in response, but I’ll adorn you with the Master of the Universe crown for today, OK?

                Ironically, I have a social engagement to run to for now….have to sign off.

                • Larry says:

                  OK. I’ll try to wear it in the spirit in which its been given, and return it when you get back.

                  Here’s wishing you a nice social engagement. I myself am off to buy a hanging basket of flowers for my balcony. There is a feeling here that Spring might have arrived. It’s nice to enjoy the outdoors more easily, and hear and see more people outdoors enjoying it.

        • Patrick says:

          Reminds me of something James H Kunstler said one time, to paraphrase I hope correctly that a human typically has a very strong ‘belief system’ but while he/she will hold onto that almost no matter what at the same time we crave novelty. It’s a kind of paradox of being human you might say. (Hopefully this comment won’t be ‘graded’ and found lacking something tells me though…………………….)

      • Jack W says:

        Geeze Guru: you go into all this diatribe about gambling and what it means to you and what it isn’t.

        Gambling is a means of getting something for nothing … period end. You are forever trying to get ‘money’ for some compensation or other, but when Phil, sometime back, asked if, when getting this money, would you be happy, you declined to answer that question. What’s your life about?????

        Methinks there’s something very crooked going on in those upper regions. Art Janov very clearly explained what addiction is … and why … and as far as I can make out no-one has bettered or stated it more simply what it is … and why. Go figure


  110. Hey Guru, Is it possible that it is not the novelty and variety one looks for in those machines but rather the comfort and predictability? Maybe we find a kind of restfulness in the repetition and monotony of the experience. Gretch

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Gretchen: I have an answer for you, but how did you come to this conclusion? Did you read Schull’s book or did you learn this from other sources or….??

  111. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    I gave this “addiction” word some serious thought and I carefully calculated an average time of about 12-15 hours per month in front of those machines. The lower & upper bounds of one (maybe even two!) standard deviation(s) would be 8-20 hours per month.

    I think this is quite reasonable and I would actually get sick of it if I played any more than that. Small to moderate doses are fine, but I really hate walking away a loser after an initial run of good luck (wouldn’t we all?)

  112. Hey Guru, No I have not read the book you mentioned but I have worked with a few “Professional” and non pro gamblers over the years and I have done some reading on the issue. Additionally I have played slot machines myself a time or two. In fact I actually have a real slot machine sitting in my living room as we speak. It happens that I also own a vintage coke machine but that’s another story 🙂 . I would NOT say it is my conclusion but rather a question I thought might be worth pondering. It struck me that there is,in fact, a certain sameness, almost a repetition compulsion. Also it has been expressed to me multiple times that it is not the win that is being chased but the loss ( yes, the loss!). Your experience, of course, may be quite different but many people have said that far from looking for variety they instead observe a kind of mindlessness. So I don’t claim to have the answers but I certainly find it interesting. Gretch

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Wow, Gretchen. I’m amazed at your piercing insight and I am reminded once again why Barry is such a lucky guy. Yes, Natasha Schull’s book echoed many of the things you just explained to me. I won’t post what Schull said verbatim in her book here, but your observations are freakily close to hers.

      I just don’t understand why sometimes I can chase a win and walk away with it while other times my resolve is weakened in some mysterious manner and I chase the loss or simply play just to play all the way down to destroying that day’s budget when I was nicely ahead earlier in the visit. There’s a certain blurry, inscrutable line here that I sometimes cross between rational decision making on when to quit and walk out rather than falling for the siren song of staying with the soothing melodies and candy-colored lights of the slot screen (obviously the casinos love to see this invisible line being crossed!). I just don’t like being manipulated by something I don’t quite understand…

      The soothing certainty of sameness & repetition compulsion is a very real phenomenon, but at least for me I would fall asleep unless my mind was engaged in some variety of active decision-making (slots don’t offer this, but poker machines do). For me, there has to be a level of strategic variety and decision making encapsulated within that box of soothing clockwork monotony.

      Schull’s book did expand beautifully upon the psychological and human factors you touched upon today, so I would recommend picking up a copy of her book for even deeper study if one is so inclined.

      Not sure what to say about having your very own slot machine, though.

      I could go on and on about peripheral topics surrounding the core we are discussing here today, but for the blog’s sake I will quiet down now.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        To put it in a very succinct way, there are psychological retailing tricks used at shopping mall & big box stores to entice the customer to spend more money, yet the ambient & ergonomic mind tricks used in a casino seem to be far, far more intense than those used in retail.

      • Phil says:

        Another common addiction is video games, especially for boys. As the father of 2 boys I have found it interesting how almost all boys seem to be heavily into video games but girls are much less interested, as far as I know. These games seem to be a lot more entertaining when played together with friends, but there are also many entertaining one player games. I very rarely played these games with my kids, its just not my thing. It seems to me that an explanation for gambling addiction has to take into account the winning or losing of a lot of money, otherwise various games could serve as substitutes. I have never found it entertaining to risk my hard earned money in this way. Phil

        THE Ultimate Guru commented: “Wow, Gretchen. I’m amazed at your piercing insight and I am reminded once again why Barry is such a lucky guy. Yes, Natasha Schull’s book echoed many of the things you just explained to me. I won’t post what Schull said verbatim in her book here, but y”

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Hi Phil:
          Thanks for your input.
          I can only speak for myself here and say…
          I posted all that gambling stuff on the blog because I was seriously wondering why & how my own mind-body connection was hijacked into continuing gambling even though I was $1,600 ahead at one critical moment.

          If I had been placed in a parking lot next to my car at that very instant in time and I was allowed to think clearly about my situation alone in the quiet outdoors for 30-60 seconds instead of being deep in the bowels of a magical enchanted casino fairyland, I would have been much more likely to have gone home at that point & do other things..

          This actually speaks to the power of environment where human thinking and decision making is concerned (just as Janov has so clearly laid out that childhood environment can influence a person’s way of being for life).

          Interesting stuff with a lot more I left unsaid, but I have to lift myself away from this topic for now.

  113. Patrick says:

    About Gretchen’s comment on ‘chasing defeat’ I think there is definitly something in that. In my own case ‘sport’ has been a kind of addiction specifically soccer (called football in the UK) and the game I remember most was Holland losing to Germany in the World Cup Final of 1974. For various reasons too long to go into it felt devastating to me but in a strange way I value and remember that more than any ‘win’ or if they had won. There is something about the tragic beauty of ‘losing’ is better than any win. However like all of this I would not want to generalize too much about it. There is even a cultural element in this, the Irish lost and lost in history, lost their language, culture to a great extent, religion was persecuted etc and as an Irish person I identify with that. In primal terms of course we are chasing the loss too in order to ‘feel’ it even if symbolically. To come back to soccer I remember quite a few headlines about ‘Irish moral victories’ which translated meant a loss. And along with that too is an identification with the underdog………………….another reason the cause of the Palestinians is so compelling to me. A people seemingly doomed not only from PAST losses but also FUTURE ones as far as the eye can see. Now that’s a hard one to ‘feel’ it’s not only past losses but many more to come……………………..

  114. Patrick says:

    A little bit more about ‘loss’ Carlos Fuentes the Mexican writer who died recently I remember years ago reading something he wrote on the subject of loss. And it was basically that loss is more ‘remembered’ or more ‘pure’ or more ‘compelling’ than any ‘win’ and though I have not read any of his books apparantly the theme is almost always about the losses suffered by Mexico first at hands of the Spainish Conquistadors and later the Yankees (Americans). These ‘cultural’ things can loom very large in people’s expierience of life and of course throw in a good amount of presonal trauma and it can become all consuming almost. But and this is interesting to me the personal trauma is often itself a reflection of some bigger historical/cultural trauma. In my own case I find it ‘helps’ me to somehow see and understand that background too…………………..after all no parents would be cruel to their kids if they hadn’t suffered trauma themselves, and there I do find the historical/cultural context helpful. In the case of Ireland I do believe the trauma of the Famine has reverberated through the generations to this day…………………….and for me at least a full ‘understanding’ includes all that……………

  115. Margaret says:

    it crossed my mind that maybe worse than loss is the bleakness of nothing at all, emptiness that seems to stretch into a hopeless future, nothing to expect at all..

    when there is loss at least something is moving, something can be felt, there is something there for me to explore I think..

  116. Jack W says:

    I’m not sure where all this talk of ‘addictions’ is leading. As I see it, we each of us need to talk about our own addiction/s and know WHY we are addicted. Talking about addiction in general terms avoids either talking about our own addictive behaviors, OR worse, being in denial about the nature of them.

    I will stick my neck out here and state that addictions are simply ‘pain killers’ and hence why we indulge them. Before I go into what mine were and are; I would like to comment on Gretchen’s response to Guru. My take, and I hope Gretchen will correct me if I am wrong, felt she was implying, should we be on a winning streak (whatever constitutes winning for each of us) at no point are we willing to let go, since if we did, we’d be left with only “HOPE”. (If only I had kept going I might have won even more and would ‘kick ourselves’ for not continuing). However, when we are reduced, as in Guru’s case to 50 cents, we’ve re-created the past (and maybe most of our present), and can ACCEPT it. ‘Acceptance’ is a better state of being than ‘hoping’ Hence we go for that “better state of being”.

    Now my greatest addiction/compulsion (call it what you will) was sex. It, at the time for me, offered the instant thrill, and it took me a long long time to just realize that the ‘thrill’ avoided the “Rising Pain”. It’s only in romantic love (at least with us humans) that sex really has its true connection. But I reasoned for all those years that sex was a natural function. Now, being old, my sexuality has completely evaporated, and so it could be said I am left with my main compulsion:- to read and respond to this and other blogs. Only by being in the ‘full feeling zone’ am I ever going to get beyond this one.


    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      I believe your addiction is Arthur Janov.
      As for the 50 cents, that was what was left of the money in my pocket that day. Separate money strictly for a gambling session. I don’t have any debts and everything else was untouched. I could have taken out a cash advance on a credit card or cashed a check, but that’s another line I wouldn’t want to cross.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        By the way, I didn’t talk about the day I walked in with $90 and left with $8,300 an hour later. I have my good days, too…

        • Patrick says:

          Guru – but isn’t the the ‘hook’ that keeps you coming back………chasing the dragon you might say……………you are not only pursuing ‘loss’ you are also pursuing ‘gain’……….are they the same imposters in different guises……………pleasure or pain what is really the difference. (“Do you think you can tell/Heaven from Hell/blue skies from pain/do you think you can tell/hot ashes from trees/hot air from a cool breeze/do you think you can tell/did they get you to change/your heroes for ghosts/did you exchange/ a walk on part/for a lead role in a cage” -random lines from “Wish you were here” by Pink Floyd)

          I read somewhere the WORST thing that could happen to a gambler in the making is some big early ‘sucess’. BOTH of my brothers had this happen to them with VERY damamging consequences. I am not leaving myself out of this, I have no interest or draw towards ‘gambling’ in the conventional sense but in some ways I was in a worse condition. My WHOLE life WAS a gamble…………………if it is that big you/I don’t even see it!. So ‘gambling’ is in some ways just a ‘word’………………..just as ‘addiction’ is……… is easy and superficial to think of some other person with a ‘problem’………………….these problems run deep………………

      • Jack W says:

        Guru: Why are still talking about your habit … almost as if it were something else????


  117. Patrick says:

    I went to Mass today (on my bike) and I actually liked it, it was not ‘boring’ as I usually find it. It started with a song sung by all the class of high school girls with guitars and accordians also. This one I just found out by searching for the words.

    And what I liked about it the whole Mass did not commence until the song was finished, the priest and everyone just stood and waited for the whole song. Listening to it now it seems a bit corny maybe but in that atmosphere I found it quite moving and meaningful and also reflects the best of those kind of Irish Catholic values. The whole Mass was interspersed with songs and music, actually some ‘pop songs’ even by Bruno Mars and Kelly Clarkson.

    I was a bit teary during some of it and then I reflected on my ‘big day’ that went so bad for me, my First Communion Day and what was ‘weird’ is the altar and the rails when we knelt to take communion is EXACTLY the same as that day which was 54 years ago. Also the stained glass windows have not changed one little bit, neither the scenes on the walls of the church. Anyway I could place myself at the exact curve in the altar rails, the exact position and how according to my Mom I somehow messed up how she beat me quite badly and the reason was………………………I somehow heard through the grapevine I was ‘too slow’ in coming back to my seat having receiced communion.

    I have replayed the events of that day many times and looked at it from different ways and perspectives but today I though what if I was slow, or ‘too slow’ and actually maybe I was…………………and I could imagine myself a little boy the first day he ever put on a suit and tie, the magical and sacred atmosphere in the church, the music mixing with the stained glass windows and somehow it was all for ME or at least it felt that way. And I could imagine myself ‘drinking in’ all of that, even at that age I had a kind of ‘mystical’ bent and I could imagine myself almost ‘drunk’ on the joy and wonder of it all so maybe I DID delay, maybe I did hesistate for it to be over and just return to my seat. None of this is to make any excuses for my Mom, this was the most disastrous day of my life and one that has haunted me forever since. It felt my life was OVER already for someone so young. I went ‘underground’ and got into a pattern of delaying life and putting off life and living ‘in the meantime’ all very poor ways to live or actually not live life.

    I have been doing a lot of this kind of ‘revisiting’ on this trip and it feels healing and it is as simple as letting things be, in the past I would come back and knock myself out trying to DO something about all the mess my life had become…………………….this time I feel better about it in that I much more let things just ‘happen’ and espesically inside my own mind. I try not to ‘pressure’ myself anymore, maybe also a function of getting older, in reality now there is not much I CAN do, so I find I can ‘let things go’ more…………………………also a form of ‘forgiving’ and mostly forgiving myself…………..

    • Anonymous says:

      Sounds like you are getting a lot out of your trip home, Patrick.

      • Patrick says:

        Thanks Larry I;’m guessing it is you, hope that is not being too I don’t what the word would be ……………(What’s up with your ‘software’ that you have problems putting in your name, if so you could just add your name at the end each time)

        I would say I am……………………..but just yesterday I sense/see new troubles dawning/brewing having to do with the present realities on the farm that my brother has here. I don’t want to get into it here yet but with my family and me it seems a case of ‘if it’s not one thing it’s another’ but even that I ‘decide’ not to internalize it all and make myself responsible for it all, something I have done SO much in the past and not only with my family, also with the new ‘families’ or proxy families as I used to call them in LA.

        That was another effect of my First Communion Day……………………..a lot of ‘proxy’ living very little real living…………… waiting for the world to begin but sensing it is ending……………..and in fact that is still my situation. I feel a sense of potential (forever ‘potential’) while the world may be ending if you take seriously the warning of scientists I mean particularly global warming………………….

  118. Patrick says:

    \i have also been listening to a lot of ‘pop songs’ on the radio as I used to love to do as a teenager. This song I like the guy is Irish and it has a lot of the kind of ‘spirituality’ and also the conflicts that generates. Anyway it is on the radio a lot here and for some reason feels like a kind of soundtrack for my visit. I love listening to the radio and again I suppose just letting things be and appreciating beauty and love wherever I find it…………………

  119. Patrick says:

    Guru – I have kept out of the gambling discussions……………..but it is a bit uncanny two of my brothers have suffered/suffer from ‘gambling addiction’ and especially my brother here on the farm it has causes immense damage and problems for him. Any there was talk about ‘spicing’ up life or introducing variety or novelty because real life was too drab. I see that as a MAJOR factor with my brother, and it is a very difficult problem because in a way life IS drab here, but what REALLY make it drab is his own impacted feelings. And to ‘help’ with that he craves and seeks the ‘relief’ of gambling.

    From what you say about yourself your gambling is pretty well ‘contained’ like you say the .50 cents was what you allowed yourself to get down to, you did not dip into your own security (which very tragically my brother has) so I think that is very good and you have your wits about you and all that……………………..still I think it might be a productive line to work on. The dynamics seem similar to a real gambling ‘addiction’ but it is contained but would it appeal to you to be ‘free’ of it all toghether.

    One problem I see with the idea of ‘working’ on it though is the problem of living (only) in the ‘mental health ghetto’. Speaking for myself what has helped me more than anything is I would say Dr Kruse in that it has literally put me in touch with my own body. I understand that was also the ‘promise’ of Dr Janov but again and speaking for myself here and not wishing to restart any ‘primal wars’ if a body is already really messed up (diabetes, obesity, I am sure there are others) a ‘mental’ or even ‘feeling’ approach by itself is not eneough. And the ‘cycle of misery’ continues whether gambling or going to groups to ‘work’ on it. I by no means am saying ‘feelings’ are not important but at least in my expieriece it is not ENEOUGH, sometimes I think I was so messed up I need two ‘genius doctors’ to help me and actually I would say that is true. So I am speaking for/about myself here and hope or wonder if it has some application to you……………..

    • Jack W says:

      “Here we go again … happy as can be” … You say you don’t want to start any “primal wars” then fire the first shot. I will fire back … from my cannon … Feelings aren’t the totality of Primal … it is the EXPRESSION of those feelings that is the whole total way out of the “mental ghetto” you seemingly find yourself in. It’s no wonder you need another doctor to fix that body of yours. If you want to keep out of wars … lay down your guns.

      Guru stated I was addicted to Art Janov …. are you not addicted to Dr Kruse ?????


  120. Miguel says:

    You’re right Patrick,

    Not only feelings are important but also food is paramount and listening to your own body.

    As I understand it, your first communion, such an important day for a child and his family , and the religious ceremony, full of spirituality, magic, music , that it was meant to be one of the most important days in your life, turned into a catastrophe, disaster , a shock for you just because your mother gave more importance to the performance of the act than to the spirituality of it, more emphasis placed on the appearance that on the essence of it.

    From that moment the soul of a child, was shattered.

    I do not want to do firewood from a fallen tree.


  121. Margaret says:

    talking about healthy eating etc., I am just watching a Dutch consumer test program where they have tested five brands of biologically raised quinoa..

    the results were not good to say the least.
    3 brands were full of insecticides, one even with a level of 700 percent of the admitted level for non-biological food, so 7 times the rate of what is considered the limit.
    the used insecticide does affect the nerve system, and now due to the program in the Netherlands the brannd, something like ‘Raw Nature food’ is taken out of the sale.

    two other brands contained two different kind of insecticide, one brand 30 percent above the limit..

    then earlier on on the Belgian channel there was an item in the news more than half an hour a day using the cellphone can cause a brain tumor says a French investigation. although the tests were quite convincing they have to do the same tests again on other large groups of people to finally come up with a valid proof.
    in our world t seems to become very hard to find really healthy food nowadays.
    Eggs from one’s own chicken are supposed to contain too much heavy metals if the animals roam around freely, and in some areas homeraised vegetables are also not safe.

    wat I do is to follow my intuition as best as posible, and to vary, and then to console myself with the idea that once adults we can take quite a bit of unhealthy stuff, and that having a healthy mind matters at least as much, and well,hopefully it will only make say a difference of not morre than one year on a lifetime, on average…

    no big thoughts here really, just feeling some concern for the world as a whole nore so than for my own health.

    and for babies and kids it does matter a great deal not to get those insecticides in their organism while they develop their neurological system.

    Patrick, in regard to primal therapy and food, I think we are all considered adults capable of forming our own opinions on the matter, and some general advices to watch our diets and to take care of ourselves is certainly being given.

    I for one am glad there is no strict guideline as for what would be The Healthy Diet. opinions change continuously on that matter and I would feel suspicious of one restricting guideline.

    behaving like adults making up each one our own minds seems well, ‘more healthy’, smiley, imho.

    don’t get me wrong, I do not object to you, Patrick, giving your view here on what is best as a healthy diet.

    it even influenced my own eating habits to some degree.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I will admit I have not explained this partly because I know people get tired of it……………….but Dr Kruse’s work is well beyond just being just about food. He has said recently food is maybe 10% of what is involved in health. He is a very serious scientist and the topic is too big, my hope would be that someone in PT, someone with some credibility and some influence might look into this. To me it is very clear PT as it stands is dying, is dying for many different reasons. We here are in many ways an un-representative self selected group and it is too easy to kind of ignore what I would call the ‘real world’. PT while a great theory is IMO even from the beginning a bit ‘unbalanced’ but worse the implementation of it has left a lot to be desired. This is pretty clear to anyone who has not kind of drunk the cool aid and worse continue to just do that. IMO PT can still be relevant and maybe we could say be ‘saved’ but not by just keeping going on the path it is on. There has GOT to be somebody other than me who sees this, unfortunatly I don’t have the abilities or credibility or professional qualifications………………..but I believe I do have this odd talent to see what needs to be done. I would even give myself credit for being able to read “The Primal Scream” at the tender age of 20 and SEE immediatly how important it was and the implications it had for psychology and philosophy. But time moves on, to try to hang onto that moment is dare I say it an example of ‘neurosis’. Nothing that is alive stops or stays the same. To treat Dr Janov as being somehow the last word on all of this is basically cult like thinking.

      • Thomas Verzar says:

        Hi Patrick
        “a bit ‘unbalanced’ but worse the implementation of it has left a lot to be desired. trick”.
        Above, you are referring to PT. You’ve made similar remarks a number of times in the past.
        It is time for you to explain yourself here.
        What is unbalanced? What leads you to this conclusion? Are the therapists unbalanced? Or is the therapy itself unbalanced? Or is it the ” theory” that is unbalanced? What?
        And more importantly, it would be
        GOOD, if you would expand on how you see PT could be implemented in a more desirous manner. What tricks are we missing out on?
        I have no doubt that your answers will have an impact on me and others. These are very serious allegations.
        Please come clean this time. Don’t hide behind general statements, allegations, and if you can, do not refer to other “authors” of any repute.

  122. Patrick says:

    Tom – I appreciate your questions and you have some good ones…………….however right at the moment I can’t/don’t want to engage in great depth about this. I am actually involved in a kind of complicated thing here regarding my Mom’s will etc and I need to put all my attention into that pretty much for at least maybe a week. But none of these issues I mention are ‘new’ and none of them will go away………………I would say people can have it if they feel they have anything they want to say. But I am not just ducking out here but also I am not sure what I can ‘achieve’ I think most people know/sense there is a ‘problem’ with PT as it stands, the ‘solution’ is a lot more tricky and it can wait. Time will do a lot just all by itself!

    • Phil says:

      Patrick, Primal is my personal feeling process. I don’t see that my feelings can be updated. Maybe new methods can be found to help people get started but it seems to me the process will remain the same. Phil

      • Jack W says:

        Phil: You make a brilliant point, BUT I feel it goes unheeded by many. I would say the same thing but another way. Primal therapy is not something you have done to you … rather it is ones own feeling process that one does within ones self. I totally agree you cannot update feelings.

        As far as I see it, the therapist are ‘for ever’ updating how they encourage us to go into and express them. Patrick and some others, as I see them, are for ever putting off answering, by such responses as:- “I appreciate your questions and you have some good ones…………….however ………” It’s a dodge … that never get’s resolved.

        Feelings are happening even as we are doing our chores … it’s the manner and way we express them that constitutes health or the lack thereof.


        • Phil says:

          Jack, Thanks. Not brilliant, just stating the obvious. I don’t understand exactly what Patrick is talking about, and he has mentioned this a lot of times. About adding a diet or other ways of addressing health concerns? An interesting idea but I don’t think would be appropriate for the reasons Margaret mentioned in her post. Phil

          Jack W commented: “Phil: You make a brilliant point, BUT I feel it goes unheeded by many. I would say the same thing but another way. Primal therapy is not something you have done to you … rather it is ones own feeling process that one does within ones self. I “

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      Hope all is going well for you in Ireland. You are going through a difficult period.
      On an other note.
      ” I think most people know/sense there is a ‘problem’ with PT as it stands, the ‘solution’ is a lot more tricky and it can wait.”
      I am not sure on who or what did you base your pronouncement above. Most people I talk with and most people on this blog, seem to think that PT, as it stands today is OK. There is no “PROBLEM”. The only solution is to feel the “feeling”, whatever is that for you. There have never been any tricks that I know of, nor do I believe we need any tricks. Is PT evolving? I really don’t know. You would have to ask a therapist. What seems to be the essence of PT is that the patient runs the show. The Therapist is there to “be there”, to support and guide us.
      You almost make it sound like we are manipulated in some insidious manner. I have never, ever, witnessed that. And that I find very comforting.
      When you are ready,I’d like to hear what is it that you’re withholding from us now. The fact that you have trouble trusting us, the PT therapist must have very deep roots. Can’t wait to find out what it is.
      Be well in the meantime.

    • Jack W says:

      I will make another stab at this to see if I can get it across. Quote: William Shakespeare:- It is not, dear Brutus, in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underling” I would re-phrase that in the Primal context. It is not in Primal Therapy, Mr. Griffin, but in ourselves that we think it is not working.’.


    • Larry says:

      I must be stupid.

      I don’t know/sense there is a problem. Once or twice while in the bowels of my feeling and seeing my truth, I plead to my imaginary Gretchen to please make it stop. She doesn’t of course, and the feeling of my painful truth engulfs me. That’s the beauty of this therapy….it doesn’t pretend it will fix your past or better your reality. You have change the course of your life yourself. This therapy helps you see how. At it’s powerful core is pure, simple, elegant truth.

      I’m not arguing with you Patrick. It is important for you to have your say. When you generalize like you do, I think you are cheating yourself. You say “I think most people know/sense there is a problem”. I don’t know of any such people. Really.

      It is a tough therapy to do. Not many want to confront their lives. Not many want to work as a therapist listening for decades to people screaming in pain. The therapy is uncompromising in its going to the heart of emotional truth. Each person only goes as far as they can, at a pace that they can. Most don’t want to at all. That’s reality, not a flaw of PT.

      I began to try to be physically healthy, exercising in reading books on nutrition, more than a decade before I started PT. It was pretty obvious to me before I started PT that you need to be physically healthy if you want to have any success in taking on the challenges and stresses of life. It sounds like it was very late in life when you finally started to take some responsibility for your own health. How come it didn’t happen decades sooner, I wonder?


  123. Jo says:

    I’ve known how to eat healthy for decades- Leslie Kenton’s ” Raw Energy” did it for me. Next, I gave up smoking, and in spite of healthy eating, my (underlying) desperate feelings caused the amount I ate to get out of control. Meanwhile I start therapy, and during this process (more decades) grow to realise that it is the feelings that drive me to not take care of myself – nutrition, exercise, etc..and it is very hard (for me) to get the balance right. I have now a structure which suits me to help with this.
    (This is just one aspect of how I have benefitted from Primal Therapy).

  124. Margaret says:

    ‘Fear’ seems to be the key feeling to deal with at this stage of my life.
    nightmares full of spiders, and continuous anxiety about anything my mind can come up with.
    for example when I went to my exam last week, I fed the cat and refreshed her water and let the tab run slightly just in case something would happen to me, like an accident, and I would not come home..

    anything I need to do out of my comfort zone triggers stress and more anxiety than usual, and I seem to be more aware of it somehow.
    I wake up clenching my teeth and feel my muscles being sore and tense.

    i specially hate this feeling as there is not much one can do to get relief, with sadness a good cry does help, but what do you do with fear?

    of course Jack will say ‘express it’, but that is maybe true but a bit of a simplification imo.

    saying ‘I am scared’ does not help much so to say.

    it is a long process of undoing one’s defenses and looking for opportunities if possible to be with ‘safe’ people to go deeper.
    the catch 22 is of course that being with ‘safe’ people tends to diminish the feeling of fear that is on the rise..

    i can feel it though, pushing upwards like a big lump full of sadness and hopelessness under the surface.


    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: You are quite right I do suggest you just express it. I have no idea how you express your fears, but for me, I scream blue murder … others; seemingly freeze up. Yes, it is a great help to feel safe to express fear and terror in particular but NOT impossible. The very first time it happened to me was not a safe environment at all.

      You have mention on several occasions about being “triggered”. Don’;t despise or run away from being triggered … it’s one way into the whole feeling response. Sure ! easier said than done … but best you can, under whatever your own personal circumstances are:- just let the trigger take you where it will.

      I contend that the nature of this blog is to trigger each of us in our own way and that it why it is not censored, supervised or regulated. It’s free flowing for that very reason … and no-one is controlling it … deliberately.


  125. Margaret says:

    this seems a bit like we’ve been there already but anyway..

    patrick, you seem to want a ‘therapy’ to give guidelines in every field like nutrition and health and so on and so on, things dr. K addresses and maybe even more.

    isn’t this a psychotherapy that tries to help people to unfold and develop their own capacities?

    we are all independent adults capable of searching for what is important to us and of how to best take care of ourselves.

    take for example the ‘diet’ issue.
    diets are adjusted as scientists or others discover stuff.
    so giving advice about specific diet plans involves possible mistakes and also puts the ‘patient’ in a dependant position where he does not have to take responsibility for his own ideas and decisions.

    some advice is useful and is already given by the PI, but more seems to me would be counterproductive.

    we don’t need to be taken care of, we have to learn to take care of ourselves.

    come to think of this, is that what you might be looking for, to be taken care of? no criticism, I’d totally relate.

    and then, maybe there is not even one ‘good’ diet. i have read in the world there are three specific types of intestinal flora biotopes, not spread around according to cultures or diets but more or less evenly spread through all people everywhere.
    those groups might well have specific eating inclinations or each a possible ‘best’ ideal diet.

    if the PI would then give one specific kind of dietary advice they would act like a well-meaning but mistaken parent.

    this is a therapy trying to help us to sort out our fears and pains to then be able to find our way and our own paths in life.

    i see the point of other factors than feelings being of importance but I think if necessary they are already addressed well enough.

    for example yourself, you have been given a lot of suport and encouragment to explore and talk about your ideas about and search for healthy diets etc.

    isn’t that what counts?

    a psychotherapy centre that would have fixed ideas and ‘prescriptions’ on numerous areas would feel very uncomfortable and even suspicious to me, and would in my view risk seriously to become a sect.

    openness and freedom are what matters, and that is definitely there.

    and primal therapy can never die anymore as its ideas and discoveries are already deeply inserted in the general picture, and will keep evolving.

    instead of doom and gloom it is far better to look for and see the possibilities to add something constructive to that process, or to create the possibility oneself if possible.

    you for example would be well capable to write about an integrated way of living dealing in as healthy a way as possible with both mind and body.
    nothing keeps you from doing so, is it?

    i am serious, if something matters to you very much, you have to work on it and not wait until others do so.


  126. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    This is for Patrick:
    You wrote two posts to me about gambling and yet you said you will be gone from the blog for a week while you settle your mother’s will.

    Lessons learned:
    A) Scale back the stakes very quickly when my “heater” turns into a “cooler”
    B) I must keep my wits about me every single second I am inside such psychologically challenging places
    As Schull pointed out in her book: “Individuals must be extremely autonomous, highly rational, and ever-alert masters of themselves and their decisions; constant contingency management is the task.”
    C) Look away from the machine screens frequently so as to not fall into a hypnotic “zone”.

    I don’t want to be rude by not responding to you any further, but there is very little more I feel like saying about the gambling topic for now. Sure, there are tons more things I could talk about here, yet I don’t feel as though it’s necessary to discuss here on the blog. Also, you and I are on totally different wavelengths in some areas here. Explaining why would wear out my poor little typing fingers.

    You wouldn’t want that on your conscience, would you?

    Plenty of other things I gotta work on around here, so…putting gambling on the backburner for me (for at least a few more days if not another week or more)….

    Bai Bai!

  127. Patrick says:

    I appreciate that everyone here is I suppose I could say trying to ‘help’ me. And my situation/position is ‘complicated’ in that all the time I am here I too run everything through the ‘primal filter’ so it’s not that I ‘reject’ it or disagree with it so much……………but the primal filter is also so much part of my alienation or certainly has been.

    I won’t even attempt to ‘argue’ let me just describe a little. My Mom is I think close to the end but I have had two beautiful days with her, listening to her and how she felt, about her marriage especially. Her mind is crystal clear, she remembers everything in sharp detail, not just the events but the feelings she had. I got a beautiful sense her ‘moving’ through life, she lived like that instinctivly, not a lot of formal education but just simply and again that word instinctivly.

    I mostly listened and now she moves through life no more but her mind still does and I followed her every ‘move’ in rapt attention. She told me how my Dad courted her (minimally), they hardly ‘knew’ each other at all, That was Ireland in the late 1940’s. But my Dad seemed like a nice man, had a car unusual in those days, had a reasonably good farm. She entered the marriage with high hopes. I asked her did you like that he had a car? She said oh yes I did. She seems now so truthful small little exchanges like that mean a lot to me.

    I have always seen my Dad as the ‘good guy’ and my Mom as the ‘bad guy’…………….but now I see it so different. My Dad (like me) was an ‘insensitive’ (to women especially) business guy, he was a farmer but also ‘invested’ in the stock market, was an onion ‘dealer’ etc. I loved my Dad growing up but he I see now ‘manipulated’ me too and also ‘against’ my Mom. She was ‘simple’ or simple minded in his terms he was the ‘educated’ one etc blah blah blah. What a mistake!!. The old Irish have an amazing instinctive (feeling) way of living. My Mom was from that world, my Dad not. He sort of aped the “English” ways and I followed him to my great cost. I missed out on my Mom’s wisdom and simplicity.

    I could to on and on, too many jumbled thoughts right now. I have also been talking to another woman in the hospital ward and it so wonderful to me, her ways of thinking, she has even written a book of stories she gleaned from even ‘older Ireland’. The pure instinctive ways of living just blow me away…………………….and yet they are completly ‘normal’ what is abnormal was my over intellectualized approach to life and going 6000 miles away to undergo ‘therapy’ was a huge symptom of that ‘alienation’. But it is me and it is what I have done and like everything is has to be ‘accepted’…………….! gotta go my brothe is calling me

  128. Margaret says:

    it was very touching to read about how you relate with your mother now.

  129. Margaret says:

    Hello hurray I passed!!

    just barely this time with only a 6 but that is secondary.

    still will try and check the answers if possibble to see what was wrong, but will not push to be able to do so.

    got workers here who are fixing one roof, the other one that’s liaking will be for next week or later they say..

    fears are stil there but not so prominently anymore.

    scary though to be honest to only get a 6 after studying hard, am not used to that, but well, it was over a thousand pages and the questions were really very tricky and not very clear sometimes, even while knowing the related material well I could often not make out what exactly they aimed at with their ambivalent way of frasing them.

    oh well, haha!


    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Nice work, Margaret. Congratulations. Pheromone sweating workers slaving away at home for you & your passing a stressful test. All you need now is a Mai Tai drink with a little plastic umbrella in it for that final happy ending, yes?

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Margaret
      Great Achievement.
      Congratulations. Well done.

  130. Patrick says:

    I seem to do better if I just describe and not argue a point (I even got a ‘like’ from Jack lol) and I hesistate to start in here, it feels this would take WAY too long but if it’s ok I will have a bite at it, sometimes even a little can say a lot.

    I have mentioned before how we were ‘bullied’ at school, I have ‘remembered’ a bit more with the help of my sister since being here. She said one day they took my school bag and threw it over a fence into a field. There is something about that………… a ‘proud’ boy and a strong boy, I just could not take or accept that humiliation (tears), another time she told me they took my coat and did the same. My mom says I just stood there and ‘demanded’ they get my coat back or I would never go home…………..I don’t remember this and I think my mom is embellishing a bit. They would not care if I ever went home, what did it matter to them. Anyway there is something about that image, how proud I felt but how low I was brought, a conflict that has rumbled and tumbled me throughout my life. I was proud also because I spent a lot of my very young years 2 to 4 y.o. with my grandparents who treated me like a little king, I was the centre of attention there and I could never forget what it was to be treated properly. Later when all the shit came down, all the horrors of small minded hatred came down on me like a ton of bricks………..I could not accept it, no way thought I had to swallow it for a while but then later after I beat one of them up I became a ‘boxer’ and a fighter, but that was not my ‘real’ nature I didn’t want to fight, I felt thought
    I HAD to fight (to survive).

    So I started in the silence of my own mind to make ‘plans’ plans to go away……………and I did by dent of getting good results in exams and being clever with my parents I got away to boarding school at 13 and life became a lot better. It was a ‘better’ life but built on a rocky and unsound foundation, something else that has haunted me througout my life. I will stop now I want to get this right it is leading somewhere I promise you but I don’t want to bore people or be too long winded I can be that way so more later……….

    • Thomas Verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      This is the right time to be long winded. This is the time to go over old issues and share them with us.
      Take your time.

  131. Patrick says:

    Maybe another little ‘bite’…………..thing thing about ‘going away’ I am trying to relate some of this with my ‘conflict’ re PT. Going away was a HUGE pattern of mine, it was a salvation of sorts and also an ‘act out’ of sorts, it was one of those things that bound up all the contradictions and instead of act outs I prefer to see how most everything we do ‘contains’ different elements, certainly for me who is somehow nearly always ‘conflicted’

    Anyway I ‘went away’ to do PT in 1978 and did not come back home at all until 1986 when my younger brother died (of heart and mental problems, once again I’m thinking ‘mental and physical a theme of mine) and though it was up to then like I had gone away ‘forever’ coming back for his funeral was a revelation. Especially the beauty of the people here, the instincive way they ‘think’ and live, the intense family feeling they have, how they (some of them my former ‘bullies’ too) embraced me, I remember one evening at the church some of the girls who had been in my class in primary school literally embraced me……………….and I felt knocked out, I felt like someone who returned to his ‘gene pool’ like a frog who wandered away and had been desiccated and dried out to an inch of his life in the deserts of LA……….only to now return to the watery wonderland of his birth and home. Anyway maybe too much purple prose here but the point is…………I had been in LA ‘trying to feel’ and I come back here to the place I ran away from to find that the ‘real’ reality was here not in some therapy room in Los Angeles, it was in the very place I ran from to the therapy room……………….only to find it does not work that way at least not for me. I will stop again……..take a breath before I take another bite……………

  132. Patrick says:

    I will be ‘real gone’ for the day visiting my Mom in hospital but it would not be me if there was not some song…………….and Van Morrison aside from being a ‘genius’ song writer IMO at least was also an Irish guy who went to the US and became famous and successful but is not back here a ‘grand old man’ of music and poetry. Sometimes I think my life might follow a similar arc even if anything I do would be ‘small time’ compared to him……………

  133. Patrick says:

    correction re; above “went to the US and became famous and successful but is not back here a ‘grand old man’ of music and poetry” should have read “is now back here”

  134. Patrick says:

    OK this is really the last one this morning…………….here is a part of something I wrote to a friend yesterday about how it was with my mom (yesterday)

    “Today I suppose I saw a bit the tough side of my mom…………the stubborn, in a way inflexible and wilful side. At one point she was talking about my dad again and not in a good way and I said I think you associated me with my dad and she said ‘absoltuly I did’ and kind of went on I was just like my dad, stubborn, thinks he knows more and better than everyone etc etc. We kind of joked about it but you know she was serious too. Later she kept saying she wanted to die, I held her hand for maybe an hour in the afternoon, I cried a bit thinking how I never took her hand or she mine or how little I was ever comfortable with a woman to take her hand. Such a simple and loving gesture………………mostly eluded me. I tried to say a little about that, saying we never walked hand in hand but she was not that interested………….in me……………..more about herself. But of course I don’t blame her I told her I was sorry I was not a better son to her. We talked about how she ALWAYS sent me Christmas cards, birthday cards, St Patrick’s Day cards and how I did not respond. She said it would a person feel like the other person did not care…………..and I said yes I’m sorry I understand but then I said I at least always sent you money at Christmas. She said you did and often quite a lot, she said you did you best, you had your own problems. So all ok but today when we were leaving she had a kind of stare in her eyes I have seen here and there and I do not take it as a good sign. She was real feisty in the morning but in the pm talked a LOT about how she wanted to die, get it over with etc. It was all a ‘waste’ she said and all for what, just put her in the grave etc etc.

    Still I think though of course ‘nothing changes’ I feel I have a better understanding of her for sure and what she faced, I like that ‘understanding’ basically. But yes…………….still ‘nothing changes’and my feelings were definitly traumatized and over and over again in different ways, I never said a word about first communion day, too fraught and I really don’t want her to have that on her conscience. Like you said I see more and more we are ALL traumatized, just different reactions and slightly different situations. NONE of the others had that happen to them though, it’s interesting here too this is the communion time of the year and it is in the papers and radio quite a bit. You can see it is STILL a very big deal in Ireland it was even more so in our day.”

    • Larry says:

      I feel how desperately sad and disturbing for your mother at the end of her life to feel that it was all a waste. That would have to be the worst evaluation to make of one’s own life at the end of it, when there is no time left to try to salvage any of it. I feel how unfortunate for our parents and the generations before us that they didn’t have the chances that we do to make our lives better.

      • Patrick says:

        Thanks Larry, it is sad………….still I didn’t see it so much that way. Life IS ‘weird’ or ‘absurd’ in to quite a large extent and say no matter how good a life or how fulfilled, we do die. Also my mom was saying I think the keeping her alive was a ‘waste’ not necessarily her whole life, she feels sometimes that this whole medical loop de loop in a ‘waste’. I kind of agree with here there and I did not try to talk her out of her feeling/notion. I ‘joked’ about it I said to her ‘oh well mom I feel like that at least once a day but it passes and it usually just for a second or two’. She seemed to like that and then I said it’s just like the weather, now overcast and rainy, then sunny and nice, I said it is fine for you to say those kind of things and feel those kind of things. My brother was a bit you know don’t think like that, you will be dead long eneough………… I said to him it’s ok we can just accept that is how she feels. And yesterday she has a ‘sunny’ day and somehow the ‘acceptance’ of her had something to do with it I think…………..

  135. Margaret says:

    thanks Guru!
    well, the workers are actually not slaving right now, don’t know what keeps them as the whole roof of the downstairs neighbours patio is gone. they don’t really slave for me either, but for the landlord..

    but hey, I am glad they started to work before I leave for LA as now at least I can keep an eye on my cat and reassure her the world is not coming to an end..

    but cheers to you too, I like those little umbrellas but prefer the paper ones, aren’t they fabulous? you can even open and close them and they seem to be painted as well, all those little fingers that have worked on putting them togehter wow, not such a nice thought, for probably close to nothing.
    but still they are a nice piece of work..

    Patrick, your comments are really very worth reading.
    still I think PT did help you to get to where you are now, this amazing communication that is going on despite everything between you and your mom, and you are being very generous too in thinking of her and not wanting to burden her consciousness with the communion disaster.

    still I htink even that could be adressed if carefully, and you sound like you are able to a lot now, way to go!
    hang in there, you are being a good son,

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:


      Thanks for the return message, but I think you may have misunderstood what I meant slightly:
      Here in America sipping Mai Tai’s on the beach with the umbrella is a sign of retiring to paradise after achieving success.
      You achieved success professionally by passing the test.
      You may achieve success romantically by having sweaty masculine guys working for you (or your landlord, I guess).
      So with romantic and professional success, it’s time for a Mai Tai! (with the umbrella)

      That is all…Just kinda kidding, too

      Apologies if you can’t see this 5 second clip, Margaret, but it helps to show what I meant I suppose….

      The Jerk (Steve Martin, 1979)

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        (just something random I was reminded of…)
        Even though The Jerk was a comedy about an imbecile finding success, there was a nice, relaxing song with Steve Martin & Bernadette Peters nestled in the middle of that movie:

  136. Margaret says:

    I got the idea the first time, but thanks for expanding a bit anyway, haha, kinda like the part of sipping a drink with a little parasol or even an umbrella if the company is nice and the setting is not a sunny beach.
    we have to go vote on sunday and as a matter of fact I just contacted a couple of friends if they will afterwards go into town as usual ’cause this time I’d feel like going along and having a drink and a few laughs, has been too long since I have done that!

    the sweaty guys have disappeared and the roof is still not there, but the good side is the hammering and drilling stopped..

    just checked the list of courses that needs to be followed and passed and wow, pretty disconcerting, this will keep me busy for a long time if I manage to find ways to make them accessible for me, which might be specially difficult for some specific classes.

    but worries for later, the next step is the one that matters now, and taking as much pleasure in it as possible, and the rest is more or less beyond control at this point.

    i might for example meet my very own sweaty or preferably non-sweaty one who might happen to live on his very own Polynesian island, and that might me want to reconsider my plans, haha!
    for example.

  137. Patrick says:

    I wanted to give people a ‘break’ from all patrick all the time. Here is something that came to me yesterday and like I always say I am not so concerned about it as ‘verse or poetry’ I just like it when it happens. I guess this could be called “The Obvious”

    I travelled such a long way
    to realize……
    the obvious

    I huffed and puffed
    like a schreeching train
    only to come to a halt
    in front of…
    the obvious

    I will take the obvious
    and hold it close
    so I no longer have to run away
    in search of…
    the obvious

    My brain power is nil
    my thoughts are jumbled
    in the face of…
    the obvious

  138. Margaret says:

    thanks Tom!
    yes I have read about those poor people surviving in the underground sewer systems in other cities as well, dreadful.

    Larry, your comment about Patrick’s mom made me reflect on how even if one momentarily can feel it has all been a waste, it seems to me that when you have children, and specially when they are around at your dying bed holding your hand, you can’t possibly feel your life has been a complete waste.

    I fear it might be harder for those among us without children. like myself..

    this morning waking up early, five a.m., I felt and feel pretty hopeless myself.
    feel like having nothing to expect, and what is the point of anything at all for me?

    briefly the dreadful pain of missing my eyesight started coming up, but that is so huge and I miss out on so much that I don’t particularly feel like trying to go into it on my own here at five in the morning..

    all the things that before were so natural to take pleasure in, just looking around, specially nature but also anything at all, and the isolation and limitation in contrast right now, feels devastating.
    feeling coming up now anyway..

    still I feel I have no choice but to keep moving trying to get forward, like a bug stuck in something very sticky, in the faint hope of eventually getting out.

    will continue studying but having seen how many classes and practica there are ahead of me, none or almost none adapted for blind people, it scares me.

    but I also feel little things still do encourage me, I do not need much to keep going.
    like I just got, for the first time, an e-mail from another mentoring office than my local onne here in Antwerp, this one coming from the Dutch central office of the faculty of psychology in the Netherlands.
    they congratulated me with having passed the last exam and invited me to contact them if I need tutoring advice.

    so that feels nice. another entry to bring up my concerns and questions.

    my statistics teacher is out of office for a few weeks, but he sent me a mail to to congratulate me and will start working again soon and try to work some more on transposing some more of that course for my software..
    all I can do is try to count the blessings I still have, the relative comfort, the luxury of being able to study for pleasure and to travel, etc.

    the luxury too to be able to share my feelings here and at the PI soon, and a retreat to go to.

    so many people have to struggle only to survive in so many parts of the world, and I wish I could help them all, but I can’t.

    too often this world, or my life in particular, feels like a purgatory, but one without hope to get in heaven eventually, ha, for some people it must feel like hell too often, and for all of us far too rarely it can feel like heaven, but always temporarily.

    still, as a child so many things were blissful, I know I still can reach some of that bliss, in good company and the right setting, like with good friends at the seaside, but without my proper eyesight it is much and much more difficult to find moments like those.

    enough complaints, haha, I am really getting tired of myself now and actually start feeling a little better already.
    the sun is almost getting up and I have some pleasant things ahead of me today, small but real pleasures .

  139. Margaret says:

    a few days ago I think I mentioned how some big old feeling seems to be on the rise.
    last night I had a nightmare that seems to confirm that..

    I dreamed I amd my late husband were thrown in the ocean for some reason to die.

    we were facing one another when we went down into the cold black water, and sank deeper and deeeper very fast.

    so fast that it was impossible to deny the reality of that even if we could stop the descent, we would already be too deep very soon to get up in time to breathe..

    while that horrific truth started overwhlming me my husband embraced me and kissed me and started sharing his breath with me.

    that was some comfort in the sense that at least we’d have each other’s company to hold onto and would share our last breath together.

    but panic started rising and rising and I started frantically to feel around with my feet to find some kind of support to push us back up, but in vain.
    we were very deep already and the water was almost completely black, and kept going down fast, while our breath went faster and more shallow as the oxygen ran out, and panic rose to such a level it made me wake up with a moan and a jerk of my body, gasping for more air.

    slowly I regained my breath and quieted down, but so far no other nightmare, and I have had lots of them, was so clearly connected to a rising fear of dying and a rising feeling I would not be able to do anything about it and the horror was coming closer and I could not could not could not cope…

  140. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Margaret
    You are getting closer and closer to the original BIG Pain.
    Can’t be easy. You have tenacity though.

  141. Miguel says:

    Hi Margaret

    You are doing very well.

    I can understand your poor eyesight is a big limitation for you.

    Though I have discovered lately how we can use what we know about the unconsciousness, about the power of feelings, about non verbal language, to contact other people. You can call it the power of seduction, the power of feelings, just to make contacts and even get the love you want.

    It does not matter so much if one is not very well looking, or does not have much money.

    Most people are in need, their lives are boring, and if we know how to take advantage of that, not to hurt them but to make friends is quite easily. You only have to acknowledge how therapists talk to you in a low vice as if they were your lovers, just to contact you, your needs, (past and present) and your unconsciousness.

    I’ll tell you an anecdote. One day I was at a barbecue for singles, widowed,
    I have invited two girlfriends. I spoke little and listened to women particularly one of them. I took pretty pictures both with my smart phone and camera. I spoke like a soft voice like therapist do, not to create or bent defenses.

    Later the woman had told me that that when I came close to her to take pictures she had smelled my scent (sex pheromones). She has been able to feel, and therefore rely on me and trust me and therefore her feelings. (I have written that with permission of my girlfriend).

    Now my girlfriend and I had a great time.

    Both we deserved it after a traumatic divorce.

    In the same way I have managed to make many friends.

    One of the young waitresses in the cafe where I’m going, calls me a Latin lover and we both laugh.

    He had always been very shy (sickly timid) and awkward in my social relationships.

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Miguel
      Wow. You are on the way. A girlfriend. Wow. And a Latin Lover to boot. where to next. You are unstoppable.


  142. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Please, O Dear Lord…
    Please help me remove this persistent earworm that has been tormenting my mind for almost a week now. I love the guitar in this song and I picture myself below a big, elegant crystal chandelier when it plays, but now it’s time for it to go!!
    I don’t feel like playing a Sudoku game to try to clear my working memory of it…

    Mr. Big – Wild World

    Now that I’ve lost everything to you
    You say you want to start something new
    And it’s breaking my heart you’re leaving
    Baby I’m grieving

    And if you wanna leave take good care
    Hope you have a lot of nice things to wear
    A lot of nice things turn bad out there
    Oh baby, baby, it’s a wild world
    It’s hard to get by just upon a smile
    (yeah…) oh baby, it’s a wild world
    I’ll always remember you like a child girl
    You know I’ve seen a lot of
    What the world can do
    And it’s breaking my heart in two
    Coz I never want to see you sad girl
    Don’t be a bad girl
    But if you wanna leave take good care
    Hope you make a lot of nice friends out there
    Just remember there’s
    A lot of bad and beware
    La…la…la…la…la…baby I love you.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      OK, I played a song I listened to a lot before this one and now it seems the earworm is going away. Maybe it cancelled this newer song out? If not, I will sigh in resignation and hunt for some mind puzzles as a last resort. (No, software coding doesn’t work for earworms…already tried).

    • vicki says:

      UG, I just heard Cat Stevens (now Yusuf Islam) sing his hit “Wild World” last Sunday for his induction into the “Rock and Roll Hall of Fame”. I always liked his voice, and it was nice to see him sing publicly again, and accept his past.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Hi Vicki: Nice to hear from you again. (As a non-email subscriber to the blog I did luckily catch your Neil Gaiman post too, by the way).

        I knew Cat Stevens had the original to “Wild World”, but I will break down in a bit of honesty and say I had some fond memories of when Mr. Big came out with their own version. Mr. Big’s times were my own recklessly halcyon pot-smoking days, haha!
        Thanks for the upload!

        • vicki says:

          UG, I have also been hearing Cat Stevens’ “Peace Train” from last Sunday’s show, in my head all week long, but luckily don’t feel tormented by it. I usually find some song running through my head most of the time. Recently before, it was Pharrell Williams “Happy” for a couple of days after I saw the video. But years ago, I got very sick of Bobby McFerrin’s “Don’t Worry Be Happy” when it got stuck in my head — that was too much!

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Vicki: (It looks like I should re-subscribe to the blog via email once more. At least I can post right after yours here for now.)

            Anyone else reading this: I feel as though sometimes blog readers may think I am being an attention addict (or attention seeker) when writing a long post such as this one. However, this is only a serious study into the inner workings of my own brain as an appreciation for Vicki’s post. If this bores you, feel free to ignore…

            The Mr. Big “Wild World” song finally garbled itself to shredded nothingness over a 24-36 hour period around May 26-27th when I played a previously favored song in my head. Mr. Big’s song would continue to play in my mind during May 26th-27th or so, but in a more subdued and stunted fashion until the earworm mercifully disappeared altogether.

            I have not been afflicted by any earworms since then. I am only beginning to learn that any earworm like this lasting more than a day or two is really punishing myself….insulting my own intelligence in a way I don’t fully understand yet. It’s only the first inkling of a greater insight for now.

            I am not tormented by the song per se, but rather I wanted to get rid of it as soon as possible from my mind so I could continue to devote precious mental resources to my own computer programming rather than someone else’s big $$$$ mass-market royalty generator (ie. that song).

            The best part is that after the earworm ended I did make a nicely brilliant breakthrough on the computer coding early this month when my mind was silent from the incessant clutter. (Daniel had a good point on this one about silence being of immense potential value.)

  143. Margaret says:

    Thanks Tom and Larry.

    went to our mom yesterday, and it was intense, she cried to start with about her ongoing struggles with the dentists about her old and new dental protheses which need repair and adjusting etc. but some of those dentists refuse to help her and have been very nasty to her and told her they’d warn other dentists not to help her anymore.
    she admits she is artly to blame for losing her temper there some time in the past, but their reaction was mean and unprofessional to an old lady of 83 years old with starting dementia.
    so now she cried that noone is wiling to help her except her boyfriend and her children and that the whole world is against her.
    she said she could not find her new teeth and thought she had thrown them away as they did not fit well anyway and her old teeth missed three front teeth that had broken off recently and those dentists had refused to repair them etc.

    so big drama at the start, but really very painful as she was not being theatrical but just very lost and scared and sad.

    i felt very bad as I saw not much way to help her but to search for the lost teeth and to advice her to go back to the one freindly dentist we know with the old teeth, but my brother was very sweet annd patient with her and said he would contact the dentist and talk with him about possible solutions.

    she cheered up, and we cooked for us etc,.
    then, when my brother was in the back ‘storage’ room fiddling with the washing machine, al of a sudden he spotted a bunch of glimmering teeth grinning at him from a shelf!
    the lost new teeth had been found!
    now they still need adjusting and my mom still might need to have some broken roots in her mouth taken out, but it was a large step forward, ha! and it was so nice to hear my brother laugh so freely, which he did several times that evening.

    i love it when that happens,
    I told him at some point how I felt he was being very nice and patient with our mom and how I admired it. I discover more and more what a gentle person he really is and not so tense and gloomy as I thought, but with a good sense of humor that is often surprising.

    I think it is feeling him by my side, us being together in helping our mom and otherwise, makes the world of difference as to not getting crushed by the situation but coping with it all relatively well.

    tonight I go to spent the evening with friends, five of them, to eat and watch the results of the elections, and I bring two bottles of Cava, a very nice spanish kind of champaign.
    will be good for me to be in good company and have probably a lot of laughs as they are all smart and funny and warm people.

    now getting ready to go and vote myself, it is in the Jewish school next to my house. yesterday there was a shooting in Brussels by some crazy guy in the Jewish museum where three people got killed, two Jewish tourists and one volunteer worker.
    so there is even more police watching the surroundings here now than on other occasions.


  144. Margaret says:

    I feel ok about how I can relate with other people while just using my own voice in the way that feels natural to me at any given moment, no problem there.

    what is missing is all the eye contact I can’t have anymore and which forms such big part of making the first opening or invitation to connect with new people.

    it is a fact I have to live with, but I do my best on engaging as well as possible once a contact is established and a conversation started.

    can and want only to be myself and find someone that likes me for who I am.
    but your story is nice to hear and gives hope for the future, all the best with your girlfriend!

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Margaret: I don’t keep up with the science of eyesight very much, but I am aware there have been some strides in recent years in trying to restore sight. Have you considered keeping track of the latest scientific or medical news eyesight treatments? Just as a hobby, I mean? Maybe you could sign up for some experimental studies someday. I do know if I was trying to cope with the loss of most of my eyesight I would be researching ophthalmology and the related fields as much as possible for the latest news.

  145. Margaret says:

    thanks for the concern.
    I htink the only area in modern medicine that might be useful for me is stancell therapy.

    they are making progress as one milestone they have reached is to make an optical nerve grow back together with the cells of the retina of mice, thus enabling completely blind mice to again see the difference between light and dark.

    it did occor to me to volunteer for medical experimenting in that way on one of my eyes, the completely blind one, but it is not very appealing to volunteer for endless and probably painful examinations and experiments in hospitals with little guarantee for good results. besides I don’t even know if I’d be accepted.

    had a nice time at my friend’s place yesterday but the elections did not go as we all hoped they would.

    in all of Europe the right wing seems to be gaining power at a scary pace.

    still it was good to notice all of my friends and their friends as well are all more or less of the same opinions. we did not really lose but the right wing is becoming larger as more people of the centre go in that direction.
    they use populist slogans that sound good without covering much else but fear and selfishness on a small nationalistic scale which uses hate to achieve more and more power.

    to be continued, the last time we took almost 600 days to form a national government after the elections which cost the country billions of Euros and made us drop on the financial rating scales.

  146. Miguel says:


    On the European elections or on any elections, I think it is better to stop being herd than choosing between different shepherds.

    But opinions are like like ass holes, everybody has their own : jajaja.

    It seems you have changed, so you see your brother from a different point of view.


  147. Miguel says:

    Thanks Tom for your kind words.

    I thank so much Barry becasue for years he was my brother, my father, my mother and my grandparents.

    He persuaded me and seduced me to be a good person and to dig into my feelings and uncousciousness.

    When I was sick he encouraged me to do everything possible to improve my situation.

    On Sunday afternoon I go to the disco dancing and dance my favorite song, Rasputin by Boney M. I tell the disc Jokey to play it. I dance it nearly as well as the male leader.

    Rasputin was a kind of monk who seduced women . He was rather ugly. He could be friendly and charming with women but olso brutal and rough with them. The odd thing is that he seduced married women and husbands agreed voluntarily them to maintain sexual relations with Rasputin .

    It seems that his skills with women consisted of a sort of hypnotism , we would say now that somehow he connected with their unconscious needs. Naturally it was a bad use of these skills.

    Finally it seems that his enemies murdered him.

    Till now I did not know exactly what the lyrics said about him

    This is the link and the lyrics.

    There lived a certain man in Russia long ago
    He was big and strong, in his eyes a flaming glow
    Most people looked at him with terror and with fear
    But to Moscow chicks he was such a lovely dear
    He could preach the bible like a preacher
    Full of ecstacy and fire
    But he also was the kind of teacher
    Women would desire

    Lover of the Russian queen
    There was a cat that really was gone
    Russia’s greatest love machine
    It was a shame how he carried on

    He ruled the Russian land and never mind the czar
    But the kasachok he danced really wunderbar
    In all affairs of state he was the man to please
    But he was real great when he had a girl to squeeze
    For the queen he was no wheeler dealer
    Though she’d heard the things he’d done
    She believed he was a holy healer
    Who would heal her son

    But when his drinking and lusting and his hunger
    for power became known to more and more people,
    the demands to do something about this outrageous
    man became louder and louder.

    “This man’s just got to go!” declared his enemies
    But the ladies begged “Don’t you try to do it, please”
    No doubt this Rasputin had lots of hidden charms
    Though he was a brute they just fell into his arms
    Then one night some men of higher standing
    Set a trap, they’re not to blame
    “Come to visit us” they kept demanding
    And he really came

    Lover of the Russian queen
    They put some poison into his wine
    Russia’s greatest love machine
    He drank it all and he said “I feel fine”

    Lover of the Russian queen
    They didn’t quit, they wanted his head
    Russia’s greatest love machine
    And so they shot him till he was dead

    (Spoken:) Oh, those Russians…

  148. Margaret says:

    for some reason my laptop refuses to come up with your e-mail adress, so I’ll adress you here..

    as I know you usually attend the friday group before the retreat, thought I’d ask you, could you give me a ride to that group please?
    I’d be staying at Steve’s.
    please also send me a personal mail so I ccan store your mail adress once more!

    thanks in any case, M

  149. Miguel says:


    How is your mother doing?


    • thomas verzar says:

      How are you doing?
      I’ve been thinking non-stop about the situation you are in regarding your mum
      If you find it in you, talk with her. Tell her everything you ever wanted to, but perhaps you may have felt inhibited when a child. You will be doing her a favour, as she also needs closure with you.
      Had I known at the time of my mum’s imminent death, that all I ever wanted was her, I would’ve told her. In hindsight, she would’ve been over the moon.
      I wish she was here, now, as i want her all the time, incessantly.
      Let me/us know how you are doing please. This is a trip of a lifetime. Your relationship with your mum pulls my strings.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Grrrr. So many things I could say here. Not enough time to get in another emotional blog quagmire.

      • Patrick says:

        Tom – sad to say my Mom died on Monday. I am sure I will have a lot to say about everything surrouring it at some point, but today I am overwhelmed in more ways than one so it will have to wait. Today was the wake at our house, tomorrow is the funeral, so I am very ‘busy’ until then at least. But thanks Tom for your concern and interest, I will be in touch.

  150. Miguel says:


    In hindsight, If Patrick´s mother were your mum , and if you,were in Patrick´s situation what would you tell your mum?


    • thomas verzar says:

      For me it always comes down to these words:
      ” Mum! I want you! Mum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

  151. Miguel says:


    My girlfriend treats me as a pacha o maraja of India, that gives an idea what a loving, tender and caring mother could had benn, should I had had one. That gives a lot of feelings.

    Of course I treat her the same way.


  152. Miguel says:


    Don´t be shy

    What’s so important that you would like to say and share with us


    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Oh believe me, Miguel, I have lots I could say here and I do thank you for asking. Honestly at this point I feel completely bullied out of saying anything at all.
      The situational Catch-22 trap is complete, and there’s nothing more I can do here.
      Absolutely no choice here but to find some good beer & soak in the quiet Spring evening.

  153. Patrick, I am so sorry to hear that – I can certainly relate as I am going through the same thing with my mother- thinking of you – Gretchen

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Gretchen
      I had no idea. So sorry to hear that.
      Thinking of you. Your news certainly stirred me up.

  154. I am so glad you made it back in time – g.

  155. Miguel says:

    Hi Patrick I am so sorry about.that.

    Good that you could see her and talk to her.

    Gretchen, sorry about your mother.


  156. thomas verzar says:

    Just this morning ( as it is morning here) I felt very lonely. No mum! No dad!
    I remember you were the first person that asked if I felt like an orphan. Your question took me by surprise. Now it has slowly sunk in.
    Well, not quite.
    No one to go back to. No one “who knows better”. There is no hope.
    I have to go to the cemetery again. I want my mum!!!!!!!!!!!
    All the time. I want my mum. I will go to the cemetery in the next day or two, to “see my mum”., before I leave Sydney.
    I cannot believe how much I want her. Need her?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    It just never stops. I WANT YOU MUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  157. Larry says:

    I’m glad for you and your mother that you had a visit with each other. I’m sad for you Patrick that it was the last. Take care.

    • Larry says:

      Your sharing your visit with your mother, Patrick, us being introduced to her a little more and getting to know you both a little more, your trying to connect and understand after a lifetime, and then it’s the last visit…..the ending….the finality of it…, got to me. I think about it still and feel very sad, about the reality of endings and unfulfillment.

  158. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    I’m with Larry, Tom, and Miguel in saying I am sorry for your mother’s passing. I sense it will cast a heavy shroud of sadness and irrevocable finality over everything in your life for at least a while. Stay close to your siblings & feel free to keep posting everything you need to on the blog and just ignore the feeling I was dealing with earlier today, Thanks.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      (And no, I didn’t have any alcohol in my system when I wrote my post above as I implied I was going to do earlier.)

      So sorry, Patrick. Take the time to count blessing and share lots of stories with family & friends.

  159. Jo says:

    Patrick, I’m so sorry for the loss of your mum. It’s priceless that you’ve had the time together.

  160. Jo says:

    Gretchen, I’m sorry that you are going through the same thing with your mother – I’m thinking of you.

  161. Miguel says:

    Hi Tom,

    I can understand you very well. I also felt like an orphan specially at the beginning of my therapy. So if Gretchen asked you that if you felt like an orphan was great.

    It seems that your childhood and mine have been similar.

    So now when my girlfriend loves me without me having to struggle for it. It hurts and it is sweet at the same time. In the past I have to struggle much to get little love with my mother and with my girlfriends.

    So the first time I was with my girlfriend I commented her I have been sick and I had had to pay some women to take care of me and then she said that it is sad if that would happen again I will come (she lives in another town) and I will take care of you. I did not have to ask for it. I did not have to struggle. It was the first time in my life that it happened to me. I hurt and it was nice and sweet at the same time.


  162. Margaret says:

    I am so sorry to hear about your mother.
    I hope you are able to be with her and think of you and Patrick.

  163. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    There are still some things I’d like to say that some people wouldn’t want to hear or be reminded of. I struggle with the implications of saying these things.

    If I said them, I would come off as selfish during a raw time for others, so I pass it by for now….

  164. Patrick says:

    Thank you Gretchen and everybody else (too many names to mention) that wished me support during this time. The funeral was today, quite a major thing they way they do it in Ireland, anyway now it’s over. So Guru if you feel like having a whack at me or whatever have at it……………..I am not THAT different or in that different situation than I ever am. And we know ALL feelings are ok right?………..

  165. THE Ultimate Guru says:


    No….not now, but I do think it would be a good time to share a brief unrelated story about spirituality or life after death.

    A rather discouraging story, I’m afraid….

    In 1990 one of the richest men in the world and once one of the world’s most prolific high-stakes gamblers, an Australian named Kerry Packer, suffered a massive heart attack while playing polo.

    He was clinically dead for six minutes. He tipped $1 million to each of the ambulance rescue workers that saved his life that day.

    Here is a snippet from an interview with Mr. Packer about that day:

    KERRY PACKER: You want the good news or the bad news?

    INTERVIEWER: Give us the good news.

    KERRY PACKER: The good news is there is no devil. The bad news is there no heaven.

    INTERVIEWER: Is that right?

    KERRY PACKER: Yeah, there’s nothing.

    In a press conference he later remarked on his temporary oblivion “I’ve been to the other side and let me tell you, son, there’s fucking nothing there…there’s no one waiting there for you”

    Scary thought…

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Sometime late this year or in early 2015 we will surpass 500,000 Americans killed in automobile traffic since 9/11.

      There’s fucking “nothing there” about that, either. (paraphrasing Kerry Packer)

      The dark arts of oblivion are fascinating in their own strange way, I guess…

      • Phil says:

        Guru, I think the 911 museum has finally opened up in NY. Also, we have a lot of memorials to wars, with names of the dead etc. Maybe there should be a museum of auto fatalities, to remember all of those people. This week I have been realizing that I worry excessively about my kids driving. It is a risk, but my feelings do seem out of proportion on this issue. Phil

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:


          It’s up to you what you want to do with whatever I say. I’m not sure what to do about a problem that big, anyway. I’m trying to focus on my own little wounded, frail stick-figure life

          My point was not the driving….It was more that lack of information in life seems similar to the nothingness and oblivion of death. (if Kerry Packer is right about that)

          I have a Karma related story I might share one day about it (if one believes in those things), and it’s a damn frightening story..

          …but I think maybe Patrick & Gretchen should have the blog here since I am not going through anything particularly tough at the moment

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Let me explain that a better way:
            Gretchen once told me an Elie Wiesel quote: “The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.”
            If love breeds life, indifference seems to breed death (oblivion).
            Indifference (or lack of information/word poverty) is oblivion, etc..

          • Patrick says:

            “Patrick & Gretchen”…………I like that but then I always did try to impress ‘teachers’ to make up for a lack of a home life or even a school life…………..

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – doesn’t it seem a bit typical of this guy’s arrogance that he can be so ‘certain’ or even think that he ‘knows’………….

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Well…….Maybe I shouldn’t have posted that story and I picked a bad time to do so.
        It’s possible that Mr. Packer wasn’t even clinically dead (and was misdiagnosed as being so)
        ….Or..There could be a lot of possibilities about this near-death experience.
        I had an acquaintance send me a book called Experiencing the Soul by Eliot Rose. It has 30+ different peoples’ accounts of near-death experiences across a broad spectrum of cultures. Might be an interesting counterpoint to Mr. Packer’s story. I also find the naturalism article I sent you about subjective consciousness never being destroyed to be of some interest.

        I’m kind of an agnostic (and I want to entertain all possibilities) while most people around here in the Primal area are pretty strong atheists.

  166. Margaret says:

    just saw such an incredible, beautiful documentary about euthanasia for children.
    we and the Netherlands now have laws that permit it in cases of excessive suffering without any chance of recovery.

    there were long interviews with the doctors and parents of children that had deceased that way, some small children and some over sixteen.

    it was so very very clear how much love, tenderness, respect and dignity there was.
    as one doctor stated, to be allowed to be present is like an honour, and with being born it is our most intimate moment, which is so true.
    it was clear they all had peace with the decision, in fact they were very serene and it was clear they had had very intense and loving times with their children before and after the decision was made.
    one sixteen year old girl in the last stage of leukemia, felt very relieved after having set a time two days later, enjoyed the last days without ever doubting her decision, on the contraary.
    so far she had been so scared to slowly asfixiate, and her life quality had deteriorated a lot.
    her dad said that she had asked him to help her if she could not get euthanasia, and he said he would have done so.
    all of this was so extremely full of true love, it made me cry, and at the same time it was so very beautiful.

    it reminded me the moment in my life I was very very ill and asked my own mother if she would help me if ever I’d ask her to do so.
    she simply said ‘of course I would’, and that answer took away all my fears in one split second.

    that in my view is true love, to see what the other person wants and needs.

    I am proud of our countries to have those laws which luckily do not need to be used very often.


  167. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Sorry for the clutter. Will shut up after this post.
    I have an immaculate track record of avoiding wild animals on the road when I am driving. Deer, raccoons, bunny rabbits, cats, dogs, skunks, etc.
    My luck ran out yesterday. A stray dog ran out in front of my car and I had less than 1/2 second to react. Going 60 mph. Killed it 😦
    Went to the casino today and defied 650,000 to 1 odds, so maybe the dog forgave me???

    • Larry says:

      Maybe the odds going your way UG balanced out the odds that went against the dog.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Larry: I’ll take the conservative route and accept it as a meaningless coincidence, but it certainly was strange, though…

  168. Daniel says:

    Patrick, sorry to hear about your mom. In spite of all the pain that may have been inflicted, and in spite of our advanced years, there is only one mother. I hope you will find your way through it in one piece.

    Gretchen, I wasn’t sure what exactly you ment – wheather your mom passed away or is somewhere in that process – but, one way or the other, I was saddened by the news.

  169. Thanks everyone for all your thoughts and messages. My mom is actually home in the care of hospice. I can certainly understand the journey Patrick has been on . It is difficult but it is also true that none of us gets out of here alive. I do appreciate all the concern both on and off the blog. Please feel free to bring up anything you like as I am well aware we all have life issues to deal with. I hope you are alright Patrick! Gretch p.s. Group tonight and retreat in a few weeks!

    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Gretchen – I am ‘all right’ or as all right as I ever am which is not saying so much……………I will be leaving here soon and as usual kind of holding my head, so much to think about and more this time because of my Mom’s passing away.

      One thing I realize in relation to this blog or PT in general, it’s like that was my ‘project’ or even my ‘identity’ and I did not have the strenght or courage to stand with that or stand behind that. There was/is such an emphasis on ‘career’ in and around my family and though I ‘rejected’ all that sadly for me I did not or was not able to make my own identity and PT itself though I was a big believer in it was also an object of ‘shame’. And still is that way to this day. Even now I had people here ask me why I went to America I don’t tell them. I understand there are reasons not to tell them or go into all that but………… feels ‘hidden’ or even shameful and that is one reason I ‘gripe’ so much about PT. I wish IT was stronger or more ‘accepted’ then I could go up against all the doctors and engineers and computer scientists around here………………but I feel I cannot or could ever not.

      That is one of the things that has been running through my head in relation to ‘here’ and PT in general but at least it feels good somehow to get under some of my ‘complaints’ not to say I am ‘capitulating’ completly………………it would not be me if I did not have some kind of ‘yes but’ going on in my mind. And I am tired of that too. I am sure I will have more to say and hope people don’t mind………

  170. Patrick says:

    People here know how I am about ‘songs’ well I hear this on the radio here and it sums up the way I feel a lot. Even the picure, very similar to the waves opposite our house here endlessly and sadly rolling in and as a child I ‘fell in love’ with my horse for a while………….(that lonely)

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      (that lonely)……. got to me. It’s so poignant..
      You are now, and were in childhood surrounded by family and friends. And none the less, that’s the result.
      Oh boy.
      Oh boy.

  171. Margaret says:

    it sounds like you have a lot on your plate but somehow you also sound like you are dealing with it in a very constructive way.

    all what you write resonates with me.

    like the thing about having fallen in love with a horse, I did so several times, and what you said about that lonely makes sense.

    nowadays I guess it is my cat that fills the gap, partly..

    it must be so hard to ‘hide’ a part of your life that matters a lot to you from your family.

    you have had your own career, and succesfuly so, both your degrees and your company.

    what would happen you think if you’d just mention also having done some therapy?
    not too many details, just give some example that is not too threatening of something it was good talking about and processing, or just keep it vague until the other shows interest?

    what you said about standing for it seems to make sense to me.
    I can’t talk much about my therapy, with my family, but at least mentioning it is good not to feel you ‘should’ be ashamed for it, I think.

    no need to push things if you have little time left now with your relatives, just when there would be an opening I think it might be worth a try.

    it is hard to predict how people react, sometimes they are surprisingly glad to be able to talk themselves about their pain.

    i just got some questions about my upcoming trip to America myself from the guy that helps me out with my screenreader, and I am postponing my answer a bit to find the right words to mention the therapy.

    in a way it seems a matter of trust and respect a person’s capacity to understand and respect your own views, to give them some information.
    just a little to start with and more if they ask for it.

    but hey, I think you are very capable of sensing what is the right thing in your situation, just want to tell you how it is for me and try and help you to see you have nothing to be ashamed about, at least not more than anny of us have, nobody is perfect, smiley..

    hope you keep writing, as much as you want to,

  172. Patrick says:

    Thanks Margaret – that feels very constuctive and supportive. But to let you know the kind of thing I am up against…………….we went to a lovely beach and I had a long walk and talk with my brother. Anyway in conversation I mentioned somebody I knew and mentioned I had met that person in primal therapy. His answer/question wait for it was……………….”oh was he/she also a casualty of taking LSD!!!!!!!. I could not believe it lucky for everybody I was in a mellow mood but that comment blows me away even now when I got home. I didn’t realize this but he associated me going to the US for PT with being an ‘LSD casualty’……………..once in one of our ‘talks’ all those years ago I mentioned something about that but had no idea this is the kind of conclusion he made. I never saw myself as a ‘casualty’ of anything except I suppose my family and maybe even him!!!!!

  173. Margaret says:

    just watched the news.. there was an item about the two girls, 14 and 15, that were raped and murdered in India by seven men and then hung up in a tree. the police and judhge first refused to accept the complaint of the family, but now under the public pressure they started to arrest both police offecers that were among the rapists and the officers that refused to respond to the complaint of the parents.

    then there was an item about a woman in Sudan that was raised by her christian mother and married a christian man, but is condemned now by the local sharia for ‘falling out of ‘ the islamic religion as her father was muslim.

    her sentence is a hundred whiplashes and then to be hanged till death..

    now her lawyer managed to postpone the sentence for two years as she gave birth to her second child in jail and is allowed to breasfeed it first before being whpped and hanged..

    her husband was allowed to visit her now in jail..

    she is not the first woman to be sentenced like that but she is the first who refuses to give in by accepting the islam religion and then probably escape the death sentence..

    i find both these stories so shocking and ‘unacceptable’, because of their crazy atrocity. it is so hard to deal with the fact we live in that kind of world with so much unnecessary cruelty and complete craziness.

    a very very long way to go.

    very very sad too and must be so hard for the people involved to have to deal with that kind of injustice.

    I can only hope some of the public attention will raise enough reaction to influence those who have some control over changing these systems and patterns, but as I say, a long long long way to go..


    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: Those stories are unbelievably sad and there seems no solution whilst we live in this crazy system.

      However, I will make my bid again and say that all this could be solved by one simple action … not education … that has never worked … not by changing laws … we’ve had those for centuries and they too have not solved the problem … not by re-thinking anything other the one solution I will again suggest … it’s so fucking simple … but it is the simplicity that makes is seem rediculous. Just as I knew when I read “The Primal Scream” …. it was the shear simplicity that made it so telling …. least-ways, to me.

      Certainly the advent of definng “neurosis” has not done much to convince the population at large … and I fear that it is the very nature of “education” (the need to teach … rather than acepting the very natural means that all creatures posses … to learn … without schools and/or collages.

      Ok here again THAT SIMPLE ONE STEP SOLUTION. Just abolish Money and the consiquesnces of it ie:- Religion, Law, Governing, Police, Prisons, and the militaary, will naturally just evaporate … along with many more things.

      Yeah!!! I am fully aware that I seem to be totally mad … AND I AM … but not because I ‘feel and know’ that the abolition of money is our REDEMPTION … but becaquse I had to spend so many years in this mad, mad system that made you so sad and angry, just now. I can’t say that I revel in my madness … but sadly having started out having to adapt to it … I have now gotten used to it … and all I am left with is to scream and yell … incesantly … about the craziness we humans have to live with. And yes!!! from time to time I do have to ‘yell and scream’.


  174. Margaret says:

    in a way this reaction of your brother also illustrates how too little information can also create misperceptions.

    at least he clearly remembered that bit of information from long ago, and I hope at some point you get an opportunity for some better communication, and some day your brother and maybe other family members stop seeing your friend, or you, or all of us, as lsd casualties, smiley

    these things take time, too much insistance has the opposite effect in my experience, small doses on the right moment or simply gradually feeling more free to be yourself changes the relationship.

    yesterday my brother actually visited me, not just to go to our mom together, but just to spend time with me and go somewhere and have a drink and a talk dogether.

    atfirst when he called in the morning to say he wanted to come by early afternoon, did make me feel nervous, but I decided not to give in to worrying and doing my best to welcome him, so I dressed nicely, cleaned up some more, and even prepared a warm meal in case he would like to eat something.

    we had a drink here first, just some juice and tea, and then went out to a terrace nearby where he had coffee and I had a beer.

    he talked a lot about his job and his bicycle trips, and I talked about the preparations for my trip.

    we were both also very happy about the news I had from our mom her false teeth were finally, finally adjusted in the right way and fit now without hurting!!

    I told him I would not join him this time to go see her, as I had things to do and then he could drive back home rightaway afterwards to his own place.

    he called me up from her house while she was under the shower, updating me she had now plenty of food in the fridge, had eaten well and seemed fine.

    we had had a nice time together and will do it again or even go to a restaurant the next time.

    it is only the last years we have grown closer as to be at ease around each other and talk about stuff much more openly and freely.

    i did mention therapy to him but he is not into it so it is hardly discussed ever since, but does not object to me going there either.

    there is genuine affectiion now coming more and more to the surface.

    I do hope you find some connection points with some members of your family, or you probably already have some, or you wouldn’t be staying there and I remember you mentioning sharing several interests with your brother.

    wish you the best,

  175. thomas verzar says:

    Hi All
    Patrick’s reference on his posting on ….being that lonely, stirred me up. I am in the final phase of preparation before leaving for parts unknown. Actually flying out a week from today.
    So, I went to the nearby university, as they have a specialised unit set up with all sorts of gismo, to check my eyes, take three dimensional pictures etc.
    The place is five minutes drive away. When I got there, had to fill in some forms, then wait a few minutes till I was fetched. During those minutes, I went through a free fall.
    I am looking after myself, being a responsible adult. Last week I had my yearly medical check up. The week before that my yearly blood tests. And a visit to the optometrist as well. All this before I leave.
    So, I started to feel lonely. Nobody is here with me. Why am I struggling? Why am I struggling to make it?
    I’ve done what I am here for.I’ve my progeny. he is OK. He has his progeny. He is OK.
    Maybe I can die now. Yes, die now. Stop the struggle. Give up on ” never giving up”.
    And then in crept my need for my mum.
    I want you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I will go to the cemetery again, before I leave. I am coming to you mum. I will talk to you. I will tell you how much I want you..
    It is unbearable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I’m first going on a vacation, before I come to LA.
    Honestly, don’t know what I am expecting. What, that I will feel better? Ridiculous.
    And what is “IT” that I will take back home with me from LA and Santa Barbara? What? Am I kidding myself that something will finally change for me? I’ve done this trip over twenty times.
    Strange. I stopped for a couple of minutes to make a cup of tea. And I remembered that for weeks now, I’ve been looking forward to going away. Go away and stop looking after everybody. The family, friends, my client. You name it. I was thinking it will be such a relief.
    And it is so sad at the same time.

  176. Patrick says:

    I keep having this idea of starting a ‘family blog’ where we might all start to say the things we can’t say to each other for real or face to face. It might be interesting though I get the feeling I might be the only participant. Also maybe an ‘unreal hope’ of mine that somehow, someplace all the unsaid things can finally be said, all secrets can be revealed, all misunderstandings cleared up. I think where the unreal hope comes in too is when it comes to ‘need’ like even when everything IS said the ‘need’ is still there………..

    But these thoughts were brought to the fore especially by my brother’s remark about LSD. Like how MUCH misunderstanding there is. And I take your point Margaret I could start with something small………….that’s why I thought ‘family blog’ something small and ‘safe’, writing to me is ‘safe’ or at least safer than well I’m not sure what to call it real life I suppose. It has that feeling of a safe zone of removal, removal from the casual brutality where life is cheap and you/I can live or die and it means next to nothing. A zone of ‘reflection’ a ‘life of the mind’ away from the dirt and cruelty of ‘reality’

  177. Margaret says:

    I hope you will have a fine trip meeting nice people!

    I notice more and more for myself how I tend to look forward to days without ‘obligations’, where I don’t have to see anybody.
    I do enjoy then at first, but then, specially if it is more than one day, start feeling lost and can’t relax to sleep in the evening.
    this morning after such a weekend I woke up with a feeling of doom, and the underlying urge there is something I desperatly should be able to do to avoid total disaster that is approaching.

    seems connected to birth terror and linked with daily feeling of unsafety. there seem to be different flavours of unsafety, the one stirred by mixing or having to mix with other people, and the one triggered by being alone.

    I remember how coming back after a retreat and simply entering an empty house after having said goodbye to the people that drove me, all of a sudden I felt literally how my tension level started rising in a long big wave, up to the level I sort of am used to all year around.
    seem to need company after all, I feelI could get used to live in a retreat setting for the rest of my life.

    it is so comforting to know there will be people around at some point, even like that one time I got stuck at the dorm when everyone had gone off for lunch, I felt terrible but knew at some point they’d be back..

    luckily in that case after five or ten minutes it turned out two people had still been talking upside so when they came down I could walk with them to lunch..

    all of this to say I can relate, Tom to being torn between needing to be on your own and then feeling bad for being alone.

    good you are doing things anyway, it is courageous and I feel confident you will ‘get something out of it’.

    look forward to seeing you at the retreat, or at friday group before it, someone else offered to take me, hope to see you there maybe!

    you sound like you don’t need a family blog anymore to develop the ways you relate with your family, with all you wrote in the past weeks here, you seem to be doing very well without.

    of course writing stufff down you’d like to be able to say sounds very useful in any case, but spending time with them is in my opinion mor important at this point.

    sorry for saying unnecessary thing, just feel like keeping some conversation going, smiley, am too alone myself and it all feels pretty empty out here right now.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I don’t feel I am doing ‘well’ not at least in terms of ‘communication’ with my family. There is SO much left unsaid, and they way I see them more than one are kind of ‘mental and physical wrecks’ not that that is such a pleasant message. Still I am mostly just fooling myself to think I can do much of anything about any of this…………..I am pretty slow going even with myself……….

  178. Patrick says:

    Today I cycled around and found myself in the little church we all went to as kids. It is still exactly the SAME as far as everything I remember. I found out all the stained glass, marble floors, altar etc were put in in the 1930’s so that kind of answered my questions about how long it has all been there and my amazement at how timeless it seems/feels. I went into the confessional by myself (no priest there) and sort of put myself in my own shoes of 50 years ago. The door is clearly marked “Penitent” and the middle one “Priest” and I remember how key it was to feel something ‘wrong’ with me…………….that was almost a test of piety or something, if I felt ok there is no ‘religion’ much to speak of.

    Anyway this is a kind of preamble, I went all around the church and could remember how I felt praying before the “Stations of the Cross”. There is 14 of them and beautifully illustrated and put in a very nice wooden frame with a cross on top of a lot of ornate woodwork. It seems worth writing down what each one ‘said’ each one had a meaning and fitted into a kind of narrative, I felt a narrative of my own life there as a child (not only Jesus’)

    1.Jesus is condemned to death.
    2.Jesus takes up his cross
    3.Jesus falls for the first time
    4.Jesus meets his Mother.
    5.Simon of Lyrene helps Jesus
    6.Veronica wipes Jesus’ face
    7.Jesus falls for the second time
    8.Jesus consoles the women
    9.Jesus falls for the third time
    10.Jesus is stripped of his clothes
    11.Jesus is nailed to the Cross
    12.Jesus dies on the Cross
    13.Jesus is taken down from the Cross
    14.Jesus is laid in the tomb.

    I found it interesting how I related pretty closely to that, the paintings of Jesus falling and the cruelty everywhere (bullies) only relieved by an odd help from ‘strangers’ Simon or Veronica and the occasional ‘do good’ gesture of Jesus himself ‘consoles the women’. Also the ending no triumphant victory, actually defeat and death, that was the end of it. I am not trying to make too much of this, I don’t think any of this ‘traumatized’ me at all, actually it was more an outlet for my feelings and kind of relieved the grim and mean realities I was dealing with. And combined with the stained glass windows and the light it more gave comfort and expression to a child who felt very ‘persecuted’ (me)

  179. Margaret says:

    in some way what Jack has more than once stated, that expressing the feeling is of major importance, is true I must admit.

    sometimes I get automatically into a feeling, but right now I was just feeling tense and uncomfortable and fed up with it, so just gave it a try to say out loud ‘I feel scared’, and it worked, triggered tears and wails instantly..
    i could notice how much of the tension in my face and throat dissolved in the crying and the tears.

    just forming the words is such a valuable tool to break through that last layer of defense.

    sure there is plenty more to come..

  180. Patrick says:

    This song is on the radio here quite a bit. It’s U2 current one and the Irish are proud of U2, why not? Their music to me is a kind of ‘aural wallpaper’ but very pretty wallpaper it is, a good soundtrack around here…………

    Words to “Invisible”

    It’s like the room just cleared of smoke
    I didn’t even want the heart you broke
    It’s yours to keep
    You just might need one

    I finally found my real name
    I won’t be me when you see me again
    No, I won’t be my father’s son

    I’m more than you know
    I’m more than you see here
    More than you let me be
    I’m more than you know
    A body in a soul
    You don’t see me but you will
    I am not invisible

    That’s right
    I’ll be in the invisible world

    I don’t dream, not as such
    I don’t even think about you that much
    Unless I start to think at all

    All those frozen days
    And your frozen ways
    They melt away your face like snow

    I’m more than you know
    I’m more than you see here
    I’m more than you let me be
    I’m more than you know
    A body in a soul
    You don’t see me but you will
    I am not invisible
    I am here

    I am here

    There is no them
    There is no them
    There’s only us
    There’s only us
    There is no them
    There is no them
    There’s only us
    There’s only us
    There is no them
    There is no them
    There’s only you
    And there’s only me
    There is no them

  181. Margaret says:

    the leaking roof is finally getting fixed, workers running up and down the stairway all day long..

    cat hidden in wardrobe, except while the workers were silent, gone for lunch break, cat came out and had her own snack.

    noise in creasing now, drilling, hammering etc.

    feel tired, tense and anxious, all the rising fear is wearing me out..

    one consolation is I received my next course in audio and digital version, ‘Cognition’ by Sternberg himself.
    very interesting course, but big and very condensed, loads of information in every single paragraph.

    good to keep my ind busy but now have to stop cause of noise..

    still have to take care of so much during these last weeks before traveling, and feeling of having to be vigilant, watch and control as much as possible all eventual hazards does not help to be calm and relaxed..


  182. Margaret says:

    as workers still noisy will pass time by translating a joke someone just sent me.

    students are in the library, all silently looking at their textbooks.
    a young guy comes in and walks up to a free chair next to a girl, and asks her softly if it is free.
    she respons in a loud voice:’no, I am not going to bed with you!’
    all the students stare at the embarassed guy who seeks a free seat at another table .

    after a little while the girl gets up to leave and walks by the young mshe bends over, and whispers:’I study psychology so I know how to manipulate people. got you there didn’t I?
    he replies, in a loud voice:’500 $? way too much for a night!’
    now all the students look at the girl with shock or interest.
    the young guy whispers to her:’I study law so I know how to make someone look guilty..’

    one of the few jokes that made me smile

  183. Daniel says:

    In response to Margaret and Jack. Expressing feelings is obviously important (also hate?). The question is, what kind of expression are we talking about, in the regular every day sense or in the Primal sense?

    If I’m hurt by a friend it might be good to express that hurt to him, but that’s the every day usage. If I’m taking my hurt and express it as fully as I can in my own privacy that’s the Primal way, and here too it might or might not be beneficial.There is certainly the feeling that in the expression, if it works alright, a load is immediately taken off one’s chest, but of course the Primal notion is much more ambitious then taking a load off. The end goal is getting to, releasing and thus abolishing specific Primal Pains; letting go of neurotic symptoms; and in general promoting psychic and physical health.

    For me the most important part is the very first one – the occasional stumbling on the Primal Pain while blurting the emotional truth out. But, once there, there’s still a lot of work to be done, and I’m not so sure anymore that this work can be achieved by continuing to try and feel over and over again the same feeling, as if to drain the emotional puss (Primal Pain) out of that specific wound.

    Surprisingly, I find the quiet moments, those without passion or drive, to be of immense value and I believe that the feeling of ‘something’s missing’, of a void, should be given room and presence and life. This can be a terrifying moment as along with the beginning anxiety seeps also a disaster anxiety, the feeling of a looming catastrophe. You might argue that this dread of something bad that might happen is the beginning of a Primal Pain that lurks all down the line, but I don’t think this is necessarily so. Sometimes it is just the sound of a self beginning to dawn, perhaps for a first time.

    • Jack W says:

      Daniel: I sort of dislike having to respond to this comment of yours as there is the tendency for it to look like I am lecturing or doing a sort of superior number about Primal Therapy and/or Primal Theory. However, I do feel very strongly that you have several misconceptions about the nature of expressing ones feeling/s. For the sake (if nothing else) to clarify what I am trying to say … permit me to respond, as gently and politely as possible.

      To quote you “Expressing feelings is obviously important (also hate?). The question is, what kind of expression are we talking about, in the regular every day sense or in the Primal sense?” The quick answer is: There is anger (hate at it’s extreme) in the present AND anger in the past that was never fully expressed. The later needs to be expressed in the “Primal sense … the former (if expedient) in the here and now … simply … and naturally.

      Since” the former can and should be expressed simply in the present … preferably, if appropriate, to the person towards who you are angry with. One caveat:- and that is firstly that one owns ones feeling of anger, and that it does not become a blame game, (the blame game is a defense). The other person is merely a catalyst to YOUR FEELING (in this case anger)

      The second: a very vital point that seeming gets missed by many (as I see it) is that “Primal Pain” is the pain as a result of NOT being expressed, both at the time and since. Once expressed, the pain totally evaporates. That is the very nature of what and why “To Primal” is beneficial … otherwise we are left continuing to feel the feeling (old or new) and NOT resolve it … Primal Theory.

      Thirdly:- the only time that one ought NOT feel it is when NOT expedient to express the feeling in the present (here and now) is because to do so would exacerbate the situation. A good example of just this is ‘not to express your anger’ with a policeman … he has a baton and a gun and just might use either. In such cases it becomes expedient to say nothing at the moment …; swallow the feeling … go to ones “safe haven” and then express it. Hence, you more or less will have resolved THAT feeling … unless it was so huge that it requires another go at another time, OR that by having that feeling it precipitates an ‘old feeling’. Then you need to use the ‘common word’ for us primalers; “PRIMAL”.

      One last quote:- “The end goal is getting to, releasing and thus abolishing specific Primal Pains; letting go of neurotic symptoms; and in general promoting psychic and physical health.” I say NO, NO, NO! The end goal is to live in the feeling zone of life … that means to start to use the right and left lobe of the brain and INTEGRATE them. All else is running into ones head in some vague attempt to figure it all out … in the left lobe only. I cannot be done just using the left lobe … it needs the integration into both right and left lobes … Primal Theory.

      To and for me, it is little wonder that there are these confusions and/or exception. It’s simpler than that … yet in the very simplicity is the “denial”. We love complicated solution … one of the hallmarks of neurosis IMO. Simple answers are deemed “simplistic”, a pejorative.


      • thomas verzar says:

        Hi Jack
        This explanation is very impressive. This is the clearest you’ve ever been.

        • Jack W says:

          Tom: Wow that was nice to read. I will revel in it for at least an hour.


          • thomas verzar says:

            Hi Jack
            “Tom: Wow that was nice to read. I will revel in it for at least an hour.”
            As long as an hour? That’s quite an achievement. And I didn’t find it disparaging either. I am glad I was able to put you in a better mood.

  184. Patrick says:

    This is ‘dangerous’ ground for me to even wade into this, it risks violating my own vows to stay “Jack free” but in all seriousness I do want to stay that way and I want to approach this JUST from my own point of view and not so much from a ‘theoretical’ perspective.

    I have talked a fair bit here about being bullied as a child, anyway I bought a bike here and use it to get around and one good thing about that as opposed to a car is I run into all kinds of people INCLUDING some of the ‘actual’ bullies from my childhood. And I do find it quite ‘healing’ or so it feels to me to talk to them………….they are mostly fine people and it really helps me (it feels) to put a lot of this stuff in perspective. Of course I have ‘known’ all these years they were not ‘monsters’ or something but in my brain they WERE monsters, but a few times here after talking to some of them I feel sort of ‘healed’ but in a way I could never achieve in say a therapy room in Los Angeles.

    And one of my big ‘gripes’ about PT was and is exactly that……….and this is going back to a lot of ‘history’ but Janov and the PI made no serious attemps to ‘integrate’ his discoveries and theories into places where it could really help like a lot CLOSER even geographically to the places and times where all of this stuffs happens or happened. I NEVER wanted to go to the US for ‘therapy’ and just that…………….dragging people way out of their ‘comfort zone’ or ‘known zone’ into a kind of maelstrom of survival that was/is LA, away from all the moorings of their lives where this stuff could actually make a difference and into some kind of ‘universalist fantasy of ‘feelings”………….well I think I can say that hardly if ever ‘worked’. I sometimes think I put myself forward as just an EXAMPLE of someone for whom it did not ‘work’. Now it works ‘somewhat’ and I am well prepared to admit it worked MORE for several other people but overall and in general it mostly did not ‘work’ IMHO. To me Janov has/had what I call today a ‘universalist fantasy’ and he made out his ‘therapy’ has no cultural implications or what might be called ‘local’ implications. And this is ironic in that his theory of breaking down neurosis is to go from the general to the particular. To me he has mostly remained in the ‘general’ and that is why (this morning) I don’t feel like engaging in the ‘general’, my ‘particular’ situation was not helped by that hardly at all.

    I do feel I make ‘progress’ now in therapy to use a word but it has very much to do with going into the ‘particulars’ of my life however I go about that and it can be talking, writing, listening to music whatever………..but not much to do with some ‘universalist’ notion of ‘feelings’ almost for their own sake……….

  185. Patrick says:

    Of course ironically I now have a different ‘problem’ LA has pretty much become my ‘home’ so anything I do here is no longer ‘local’ to me…………talk about being ‘displaced’ but that seems so much to be the reality of modern living…………everywhere invaded by ‘non native species’ no ‘home’ anywhere…………..even in Dr Kruse’s terms ‘non native electro-magnetic frequencies’ harming our health and the health of all living things………… we move into one of the Great Extinction Events…………..

  186. Patrick says:

    Wouldn’t that make a good title for an album/cd whatever “Moving into another Great Extinction Event” could rival Pink Floyd’s “Set your controls for the Heart of the Sun” or “Atom Heart Mother” or “Careful with that axe Eugene” or…….or……or. Different times, different places ‘ya know those were different times’ as Lou Reed said in “Sweet Jane”

  187. Margaret says:

    in my experience Primal therapy has always encouraged people to work on living their life as fully as possible.
    at the same time it reinforcess therapy itself as that indeed would not work by simply sticking to attending groups and sessions without ever growing and evolving outside the therapy room.

    I have always felt there are some advantages in living far away and visiting the PI on a good regular basis as it kind of forces both the reality check of one’s actual life and the regular boost of being in a therapy environment where the more difficult items can be accessed and processed.

    the way therapy works becomes clear in how we experience and deal with the people in our daily life, be it relatives or other persons.

    if therapy would only consist in endless chewing over the same stuff in therapy rooms without ever picking up one’s life, facing it and improving it and growing, I would agree with your criticism Patrick.

    Luckily that is not the case and in a way you are the living example.

    having processed many of your feelings about the bullying might have helped to now to be able to stop for a talk with them and see them as they are and feel you have dealt with it.

    only you know how much ‘therapy’ or feeling old stuff you have done, and we each do so in our own ways, without or with the help of therapists and friends.

    there is no ‘either…or’ it can all be useful.

    for me and many other people specially the safe environment of therapy enables us to go deeper than one can usually go at home by oneself.

    not aan easy process at times, though in my case so far so rewarding I never once hesitated to continue.

    now there are hard feelings on the rise, this fear feels worse than anything I have dealt with before but if my options are to push it down and swwwallow it with all the leftover tension that causes, or to try and adress it by facing it if posssible by letting my defenses down in the safe company of other people exploring their fears and pains, my choice is clear.

    and Daniel, in some way the feeling of doom might be the uptime for more of my ‘real’ self, but I fear first there will have to be some real nasty stuff to be felt first in my case this time..

  188. Margaret says:

    again to my great relief managed to make that crucial step from feeling tense and miserable into the feeling.

    this of course is no new thing to me but at this stage it means so much as I am so tired of feeling so tense and bad all the time..

    I was actually watching the news, with half an ear as it was almost over, and also noticing how ‘miserable’ I felt.

    so I just let myself say what came out of my mouth, ‘mama’, and it set off early wailing and tears.

    I immediately noticed how when the wails started they sounded in the very first moment only like an outcry of need, immediatly subtly but clearly changing of tome, with a more frustrated, sad and hopeless pitch.

    while wailing I kept ‘savouring’ what I felt, and it was a mixture of need, wanting my mommy but also not wanting her, frustration and the sadness of knowing my needs would not be met roperly .

    I recognized the feeling, the facial expression too that is even preserved for eternity as for some weird reason my parents sometimes took pictures of me when I was crying like that.

    they, or mostly my mother, found it a funny sight to see me sad, angry and indignified at the same time I guess, so my mother must have urged my dad to take a picture of me those times..

    no wonder I feel so lonely inside, and so scared to be hurt, rejected or ridiculed.

    still feel like crying.

  189. Margaret says:

    come ton think of it what triggerd it in the short term was probably a phone talk I had with my mother yesterday evening.

    I told her she would be able to get household help for a couple of hours a week in the near future, and it turned again into a discussion of some kind.
    again she said she did not really need it and that she wanted to feel free to see her friends, but actually specially her boyfriend, and what if the hours would coincide etc…

    I told her again if that would be the case she could always cancel the help for that week, but that usually she meets her boyfriend in the weekend or the afternoon so it should not be a problem if the help came in the morning.
    then she went on about what they would help her with, as she did not need help,until I reminded her of the fact we had gone through this over and over several times and she had promised the last time to give it a try and not argue about it anymore.

    I told her too it matters to take the household ehelp now, while she is still reasonably well, as if she waits until she gets ill or something, they won’t have anyone available and even if they would it would be someone she does not know and who does not know anything about her.

    it is true there is a shortage and waitning lists for household help for elderly people, so I also told her it would take a lot of worry from me and my brother’s shoulders to know there was an extra person in the cases we could not come by.

    i told her I wish she would cooperate a bit more and show some gratitude for all the help we invest by organizing and dealing with all the administration to obtain it, and finally she did agree to give it a try..

    there is no date fixed so far for the household help, so far she has only a cleaner every fourth night, but well, it is concern for her future years but also a way of taking care of myself and my brother by organizing some professional help in time in case she would suddenly really need it.

    she can use it now already but we help out a lot and she gets older fast.

    it is her way of always knowing better and her stubbornness and selfishness that trigger me, while I can of course also see her point of wanting to defend her independence..

    but anyway, that struggle set me off in what I now see is a struggle that started very very early in my life.

    in a way it is reassuring to feel pieces are falling into place as sometimes in these pre-feeling stages when the tension rises it almost feels like slowly going crazy.

    now I know once more it serves a worthwhile purpose.

  190. Patrick says:

    ! am aware I have a ‘thing’ about PT, I have talked before of the ‘shame’ I have had to deal with in relation to it and how I could never ‘establish’ myself in it or as something I could stand behind. Here is something I wrote to a friend a few days after my Mom died.

    “The other thing about living my own life…………….that is such a biggie for me. This is all connected with the ‘shame’ I feel in my family about PT, how I ‘hide’ that too, hide it from them, so J. and M. (my siblings) kind of stand for who they are, I don’t, I have always been a bit secretive about PT. I told you even when I left I packaged all those primal journals that meant so much to me in plain newspaper (a disguise too) and you know just ‘hoped’ they would be there when I got back. See I have got back MANY times 85, 86, 92, 97, 02, 05, 07, 09 and ONLY now do I ask my mom and on her death bed! That ashamed or embarrased or whatever, that helps explain why I did not do so well there, I could not stand behind it as much as I ‘believed’ in it. That is sad too my ‘life project’ hidden under a bush as usual. A lot of shame, secrecy even about things that were not shameful or needed to be secret.”

  191. Margaret says:

    sound like important insights Patrick.

  192. Patrick says:

    A friend sent me this today and I thought it a very beautiful and touching song AND video about someone close dying and trying to move on…………….

  193. THE Ultimate Guru says:


    Could someone please, PLEASE explain to me what term or definition is used for this style of music?

    It’s Jan Hammer’s “Evan” from “Miami Vice”

    If you listen to it, stay with it for the entire 3:06…every second..don’t give up on it

    It is horrible at first, but then it gets better and better and better and better until it builds to a soaring crescendo at the end.

    What style is that???

    Can anyone please tell me? Pretty please???

  194. Patrick says:

    Techno (con)fusion ??

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      To Daniel & Patrick:
      The name of the style I may be looking for is not related to the synthesizer in the song. It’s the structure of the song I was curious about (the gradual rise to an ending crescendo). Any instrument(s) could be used to build it up towards the end like that.

      It’s not a big deal, yet I’m surprised that music schools don’t have a term for it.

  195. Margaret says:

    I am amazed how much relief those bits of crying and insight gave me instantly, specially cause the crying was intense but brief.

    the entire day my anxiety had dissipated and I had fun at singing class and chatted and lauged a lot with the teacher and other students, and even signed up for some concerts in the fall.

    i also, what to me matters even more now, fell asleep easily, and even the familiar pursuit of me in my dream this time was more hilaric than horrifying.

    this afternoon have to go to university to review a past exam out of curiosity, and to explore some of the website with the help of an assistant and to talk about my study planning hopefully..

    I can feel some of the anxiety and fear will rise again but hopefully I can deal with it again making another step forward.

    this sounds like all of this is news to me which of course it is not, it is merely the ‘efficiency’ this time that strikes me, little cry, big effect and relief.
    way to go, haha, would like to have more of that!

  196. Margaret says:

    haa, spent a couple of hours at the study centre,figuring the most efficient way out on their website to the items that matter to me.
    was very ‘illuminating’ and useful.
    found out I almost reached the first ‘checkpoint, to finish ‘part 1, would do so if I’d be able to do the first exam of statistics.
    that won’t happen immediately but am already busy in ‘part 2’, so now I have some idea of where I am at on the study path.

    also found out my ‘6’ which was somewhat disconcerting in reality was 29 right of the 40 questions, so actually a 7,2, which was downsized to 6,9 to deduct possible guessed answers, and then a 6.9 is automatically rounded off downwards to a 6.

    feels reassuring as now it is more in tune with what it felt like to me, even if the score still is a six.

    feel tired but satisfied despite some frustrations of a server being out of order so I still could not fill in a form that went wrong without assistance, will give it another try later on and then give up on it as it is not essential..

    sorry if this does not interest anyone, but have to share it with just virtual reality if necessary for the mere sake of ‘sharing’

    although it was and is a laborious undertaking it feels good to get more grip on the organisation of my studypath and its hurdles.

    to be continued, smiley…

  197. Daniel says:

    Jack, thanks for your clear reply, I don’t know why you hesitated posting it.

    I’m not sure where my misconceptions are, but I think we meet when we both agree that “feeling pain” in the Primal sense is the major issue here, rather than the every-day sense of feeling. But, once we meet there we immediately part. You state that “Once expressed, the [Primal] pain totally evaporates”, and my point was that this is not true, that people can feel (in the Primal sense) for years over the same issues and still not get rid of it.

    You go on to say that it is all very simple and again I beg to differ. On the contrary, the complexity is evident everywhere you look. For example, the so-called Borderline and Hysterical personalities feel constantly, cry their eyes out, rage often, but this most of the time leads them nowhere.
    You might say that this is a problem of abreaction (in the Primal sense), feelings that are not connected to the original Primal Pain, and perhaps this is true but then surly introduces complexity into the issue of resolving Primal Pain. In other words, helping people of various personality structures to truly connect to their Primal Pain is a highly complex matter.

    The notion may be simply stated (feel your feelings, connect left and right brain lobes) but when it comes to be applied to actual human beings the complexities begin. In order to address these difficulties the first step must be to acknowledge the inherent complexities and difficulties and then proceed from there. By the way, it also helps theoreticians and clinicians to be more modest, humble themselves before those realities.

    • Jack W says:

      Daniel: The major quote from this last comment of yours:- “…………………………. and my point was that this is “not true”, that people can feel (in the Primal sense) for years over the same issues and still not get rid of it…………….”

      IF, you are feeling for years and years … and not getting rid of it; you have MISSED the very essence of Primal Therapy. I’ll take another shot:- THERE ARE TWO COMPONENTS TO “ALL” FEELINGS. Yes, every one of them. The first is the physical sensation … the second factor is:- THE EXPRESSION OF IT. If the physical sensation is NOT fully “EXPRESSED” the feeling continues to “reverberate” in the body UNTIL fully expressed. (go back and re-read “The Primal Scream” or, “The New Primal Scream”.

      Why, for Fuck’s sake Daniel, are you so “all hell bent” on a “COMPLICATED” reasoning. Are you totally unable to to just sit for a moment or two and CONTEMPLATE the simple one … rather than designate it, as most do:- “Simplistic” hence a pejorative.

      It is not a matter of “OPINION”. AND … I did not figure this out.


      • Thomas Verzar says:

        Hi All
        Received this just a couple of hours ago from Keith Wilkinson, a fellow traveler in therapy.
        Curious what you all think of this.

        See you soon.

        • Jack W says:

          Tom: I watched this whole video from beginning to end and all the while was thinking :- “Janov has been talking and writing about just this for some years now. I suspect that his woman had at least some inkling of Janov’s work. If she did I think it was remiss of her not to at last acknowledge that. If she did not, I do wonder if she got a lot of this information via someone that was cognoscente of Janov’s work. Either way I feel this is typical of people wanting it to appear all their own work/idea. To me, that is a form of dishonesty.

          However, all that aside, it was very interesting that this was being put out on this now popular program “TED”, and though it was presented in a slightly differing format to the way Janov does it; nevertheless, is presenting the case of “Life Before Birth”. That part pleases me greatly.

          I must say I do get pissed at the Primal deniers and those that seemingly wish put Janov and his work down: to some now ‘old fashioned idea’ (when in fact it was a HUGE discovery) or that there has been some MD’s who’ve now discovered something else that negates Janov’s work All that is the world of egos IMO

          I have lived with and continue a very close relationship with my friend Jim who was educated in the medical world and from that perspective, has for ever dismissed the Primal notion. I can well see his reasoning’s, but I refuse to take his basic premise. However, I long since gave up any attempt to convert/convince him. There are sad aspects to this, but I would rather keep this very loving, (now 33 year relationship), going … that for both of us is extremely valuable … even though we do have our disagreements, but we also have a lots of fun too.


          • thomas verzar says:

            Hi Jack
            I see things a little bit differently to you.
            I see Janov’s work everywhere. Everywhere where people are doing something to better their lives. People, psychologists, psychiatrists, ‘groups of all sorts’ refer, one way or the other to early feelings, and the impact they have on humans, way down the road.
            I see primal everywhere, Ted is just one venue. It is like a ripple effect. As time goes on, one doesn’t remember, or know, where some ideas came from. What matters, that ‘someone’ came up with it, and the rest of us, are in the happy situation that we can make use of it.
            He had balls to call it The primal Scream. You’re right. Perhaps by another name, it wouldn’t have been so ‘confrontational” to the general public, in particular to that subversive group, called psychologists and psychiatrists.

    • Phil says:

      Daniel and Jack, I think that feelings which look like abreaction can actually be leading somewhere. Connected feelings aren’t all or nothing propositions. I don’t really jump into any fully connected feelings. It’s more like the level of connection increases as I go along. I believe it is worthwhile to continue working on the same issues as they come up. I thought that was the whole point of primal. Why stop t revisiting a particular issue? I have certain things which will only be resolved little by little with more success as time goes by. I wouldn’t want to interrupt that process as that would be the end of my primal journey. Also,I think how this all works varies with each person. Phil

      Daniel commented: “Jack, thanks for your clear reply, I don’t know why you hesitated posting it.

      I’m not sure where my misconceptions are, but I think we meet when we both agree that “feeling pain” in the Primal sense is the major issue here, rather than the every-day “

      • Jack W says:

        Phil: In essence I don’t disagree with you … except to say that I would word some of it differently. I agree that there are some feelings that can only be felt and expressed in small doses. We are all different and all of “our cookies crumbled” differently. A major part of this is contingent on the valance of the feeling in early child/womb hood..

        One factor I would really word differently and that is:- “I thought that was the whole point of primal” My POINT about what Primal is all about is to:- simply enter into the “Feeling Zone”, and once there … then all this other stuff/explanations “flies out the window”.

        Again to re-iterate my mantra:- Keep it simple … and “simplicity” should be what we all should be striving for. the rest is hard work and “the struggle”.


  198. Daniel, I have a feeling you may know this but just in case…. Hysterical personalities and Borderlines can often ( but not always) appear to be feeling but in fact are not . They may be venting or raging or even screaming but that is not the same as feeling and connecting Primal feelings. One of the first things I learned in training was to be able to recognize and even hear the difference. There is no real relief from ones pain with random expressions of feeling. That is not to say that we don’t all, on occasion, feel the need to simply vent but as a general rule we need to go deeper. I always wondered if the first book had not been titled The Primal Scream, maybe instead Janovian Therapy it might have been better. Those who thought this was about screaming and then getting nowhere might have found a better direction. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      UhGretchen I see your point…………..still “Janovian therapy” is kind of a mouthful and not in a good way. Something with the word ‘feelings’ in it but my take is in those days there were quite a few books coming out with that notion (Rodgers, Laing etc etc) and Janov wanted to make a very big splash! And he did…………….pity he did not really know how to take if from there IMHO.

    • Jack W says:

      Gretchen: The last part of your comment here:- “I always wondered if the first book had not been titled The Primal Scream, maybe instead Janovian Therapy it might have been better.” For me it was the word “Scream” that intrigued me. Being lent the book and reading that introduction threw me for a loop. Before knowing about therapy I had had a reliving event in a clinic in London and couldn’t believe I had that kind of scream in me. I was screaming at the top of my lungs; “I’m dying …. I’m dying”. AND I was back there as the baby me … dying. Not just remembering:- being totally there with the smells and the taste in my mouth and the sights as only the baby me could see and feel them then.

      None of this is to invalidate what you said for I totally agree that many have made the act of “screaming” the ‘modus operandi’ of the therapy … which it definitely is not. But if the book had been called “Janovian Therapy” I doubt I would have even read the introduction. So! “The Primal Scream” for me was the total impetus. I suspect that also might apply to others. It was indeed a dramatic title.

      I will re-iterate something I have said … I think … more than once on this blog. Many years earlier I did The F. M. Alexander Technique. He Alexander wrote a book called:- “The Use of the Self” In that book he said he was asked if on reading his book anyone could do his “technique”/therapy. He replied:- “Yes … if they can read” Implying, as I saw it, that many read lots of stuff, but that doesn’t imply that they take it all in. I feel this also applies to “The Primal Scream”.


  199. Patrick says:

    Moored here in the West of Ireland (and the howling wind and rain are back) I feel like continuing not getting involved in the ‘primal wars’ (that’s unlike me) and keep it personal or tell some stories if you like.

    Being here I suppose I keep thinking about this business of how I wrapped up in newspaper and tied them all with a very unimpressive string to make it seem like ‘nothing’, ALL the Primal Journals (not newsletters they came later), there were 4 years of them, one each quarter so 16 in all. I guess I am trying to unravel my own state of mind at that time…………and above all it was PROMISE, I felt the journey I was about to embark on was important, important to me but also I couldn’t help but feel it had more importance than just me, maybe to my family and even the whole community (Ireland itself?) around here.

    It felt importance, I felt those journals one day might be pored over by ‘thinkers’ even hundreds of years from now. I had a degree in Philosophy and knew something about ‘ideas’ and how sometimes they stay buried or are discovered later. Like say the ancient Greek culture kind of ‘slept’ or was buried until the Renaissance time. Anyway none of this means much just to show my state of mind, I felt I had found gold, gold for my body and mind. It had been 5 years since I read the “Primal Scream” and these journals and Janov’s other books too, I read ALL of them cover to cover more than once and now the time had come……….time to put ideas behind and go and DO it, do the thing with all the promise, all the hope the thing that would fix it all, somehow make up for it all though the books said NOTHING would make up for it………..nothing really COULD make up for it deep down I felt that, to be bullied like I was, to be hated for no reason, I was a ‘soft’ child, I went to that local school full of hope also, full of hope and expectation only to have everything shoved back in my face. So I ‘knew’ all that I was never that naive or ‘stupid’ naivety had been taken from me a long time before all this.

    But the other thing I want to mention is as much as I felt it to be important or even earth shaking/changing I also ‘hid’ it. I couldn’t really even tell my family WHY I was going, I couldn’t even leave the journals around where someone might find them, I wrapped them in newspaper for that very reason, so they would look like ‘nothing’, I also stuffed them high up in a closet surrounded by paint, chrismas decorations etc. I don’t want to make too much of this, one reason is if my family read them they might be scandalized, much talk about sex etc, also and of course worse was the pointing to the parents as being the source and cause of all these problems. So I had a ‘reason’ to hide them that made sense.

    I mentioned I had come back here maybe like 6 times and STILL never asked or looked for them. There was another reason for that too……… ‘quest’ had proved mostly dissapointing I would say, I didn’t feel it a terrible mistake but somehow it did not measure up to the hope and promise I felt before I left so I suppose I just kind of let it go……….I did not want to draw attention to them or myself. This time it is a bit different, I ‘came back’ to primal at least to a good degree and now I would like to find them, read them, share them with my brother. My Mom is gone so it would not upset her now and it seems from what I gather about 3 years ago they cleared out that closet and it seems they are gone (thrown away). I asked my Mom about them only about a week before she died and in the wonderful ‘honest’ way she had at the end she said after she at first ‘denied’ it “oh maybe I did throw them away, I thought Padraig is gone now, he is gone and there is no reason to keep around stuff like that”. She associated me with my Dad and a lot of ‘useless’ theorizing so now time to just bury all that. As she was buried last week.

    I was not close to her for many many many years but now she is gone I understand her better than I ever did (tears). I am here only with my brother who is alone and I have volunteered to prepare the food etc, anyway yesterday I was making something and he goes off to his room……..and I could feel a little of what she felt there but only a little , she had to put up with a hundred times (at least) as much as I have to. Including from me in those days me with my head in books and no regard or appreciation of what she was doing for me, cleaning, cooking and everything else. One time she went ‘on strike’ on Christmas Day I thought that was so awful at the time but now I see her point of view…………..of course that was a good day to go on strike it was one of the few days she had ‘power’. That was a big insult to her, she had no power here, she was disregarded and not valued and as she told me she entered her marriage with high hopes and great expectation…………..just like I did they day I wrapped up my Journals and headed to the United States with similar high hopes and expectations. It’s funny how life repeats itself or how patters recur again and again……….I am not ‘blaming’ anyone but my expierience was weirdly similar to hers even if in my arrogance of youth I figured I had nothing to learn from her. I absorbed my Dad’s notions that she was almost worth nothing which was another thing that put me going in quite bad directions. I missed out so much on the feminine wisdom, the wisdom that now seems life saving if it can be saved at all.

  200. Margaret says:

    I enjoyed reading your comments, and also Phil’s and Gretchen’s replies.
    and also what you wrote, Patrick, very real and touching.

    that ‘soft’ boy is still intthere somewhere and it would be very nice getting to know him more and more.

    you are a very strong person and that will never get lost either.

    i still feel you are doing well in the sense that you definitely seem to be on a good track. did not want to use ‘the right track’ as there are many ways that lead to Rome..


  201. Patrick says:

    I just heard this song on the radio (radio is GREAT here) and though it is written from a ‘romantic’ perspective it conveys a lot of what happened with my Mom. First I was the ‘last to know’ what was happening to her, then I ‘internalized’ that and didn’t want to know, deliberatly made myself not know and later when I did ‘bad’ things she was the last to know. Circle complete! Work done! and above all that is what I feel now that tradgedy, above all I did not ‘know’ what she was going through and I am not talking about her cancer, I am talking about her whole life here after she married my Dad. I would have come to her aid……………I didn’t know………..

  202. Daniel says:

    Gretchen, I’m aware of venting vs. connected feelings and also mentioned it in my comment. My point was that it isn’t simple, that the mere fact that defense-mechanisms can be so varied and prevent us from connected feelings in so many ways is evidence that to get to true connected feelings can be a complex matter.

    I’ve been for 5 years at the PI and know from my own experience and also from the experience of some of those who were around me that for many it isn’t simple (And it doesn’t take anything from Janov’s achievement). Or, as Barry used to say – easier said than done.

    My other point, which is kind of the other face of this one, was that even when connected we can’t just drain the Primal Pain away once and for all and thus rid ourselves of our symptoms and live a fuller life. In my opinion the process must be a two-way deal: it’s not just about loosing something (the old pain that is drained), bringing something out, it must also be about gaining something, letting something in. That’s what I meant in an earlier comment – parts of the self that heretofore were only a potential (and were not realized for various reasons) begin to have a life.

    And I think that these potential parts of the self don’t just automatically begin to have a life because the Pain that was in their way is now gone, something else must happen. The issue is constructing a subjectivity, becoming a subject, and I think Janov, as far as I know (I’m not familiar with his recent work), didn’t give this matter enough attention. And he was right there, as the Primal notion is actually to experience for the first time something that already happened but never experienced (in other words – to fill something where an experiential void was).

    • Larry says:

      A theory applied to something mechanical such as an internal combustion engine can give an exact predicted outcome, but life is much more complex so outcomes from any biological theory are much less reliably predictable. I agree that Primal Theory might be simple, but the application of it complex.

      I’ve only read Janov’s earlier work. It changed my life and I’m thankful. Daniel your writing here made me contemplate it for its shortcomings. I agree with you in that the thrust of his writing was to demonstrate the theory by presenting examples of people having primals and the physiological and behavioural changes that followed and why. I agree that his writing for the lay public didn’t focus on application of the theory in the treatment of complex personalities in complex lives. Maybe Gretchen and Barry will write that book.

      As for constructing a subjectivity, it seems to me that even emotionally healthy people who have parental love and support, whether they become athletes or musicians or scientists, have to explore life and discover their potential and find who they are. Why should primal people be any different? Seems like you are saying that in his writing Janov failed to address our unreal hope that just primalling will do it all for us. Of course those of us who never had parental love will find it much more difficult to explore life to discover ourselves, and will wish primalling did it all. Maybe Barry and Gretchen will expand upon that in the book I hope they’ll write.

      • Jo says:

        Larry, sorry – they’re too busy looking after me!!!

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Reading Janov’s books compounded my own problems. I wish I had never independently researched my way towards them until about 2002 onwards so I could have viewed my life’s situation more objectively instead of through the lens of a dangerously glory-seeking megalomaniac without any other solid information available to help properly balance things out.

          Problem is, if I hadn’t done my research by 1994 I would have been dead long ago.

        • Larry says:

          Oh, Jo. 🙂

        • Larry says:

          I think they are writing it during phone sessions, and when we think we see Barry doodling in group, he’s actually probably writing another chapter.

      • Larry says:

        Daniel, I see ambiguity in my second sentence of the second paragraph. I meant to say “….made me have a try at comtemplating the content of Janov’s writing with the analytical eye of a book reviewer.”

  203. Patrick says:

    Niels Bohr who was very important in developing quantum physics supposedly said “If you think you understand quantum physics – you don’t”. I think this can certainly apply to primal theory sometimes it seems the people most sure of themselves are kind of the very ones to miss the boat. Especially as feelings are not amenable to ‘thinking’. And no Daniel I am not thinking of you. One time about a year ago you wrote a thing here about the direction primal therapy MIGHT have taken in terms of ‘playing well with others’ which I thought was quite brilliant. And something I wish Janov and his acolytes might pay attention to but they won’t…………..

  204. Miguel says:

    Gretchen and Jack

    I think Janov used the title for his book in a very appropiate way. The Primal Scream.

    As important as to have a good product of art, of science, of literature, etc.
    is to know how to sell it. That is marketing. That the produch reach thousands and thousand. Very difficult.

    When I was a school teacher a had very good ideas, I was so naive that I thought that just by teeling the parents of my pupils that would be enough. I would convinced them. It is is not enough. One has to know how to sell them, how to gain people trust and that is not so simple, you have to persuade, seduce (if you want to call it) and conquer their hearts. Not just telling them what it is in your mind, even if it is a very important idea, proyect, or product. There must be marketing.

    If you remkember J.F. Kennedy, he was a great seducer. He used to look at the TV cameras as if he weere talking to them, seducing them. He used feelings, American mitholgy. That is to say, passion.

    I think the media and people in general want entertainment, pictures, drama. I think their wishes are between reality and fantasy (unconscious).

    I think that A. Janov not only discovered a fantastic new product, together with Vivian Janov,. He knew very well how to sell it : he popularized the psychological science, he added stories of his patients: added excitement, drama, science and called the attention of hundreds of thousands of followers and readers of the Primal Scream, he persuded them, excited them that so many of them cross the Atlantic to see him and do his therapy.

    And yes, he was the JF Kennedy of psychology and a great seducer, producer , entertainer and learned to sell their product and put passion and drama in his books and therefore in the lives of thousands and thousand of people.

    So Jack , you are very, very right. Good for you.

    You can ask for more?


    • Jack W says:


      Great to read that from you Miguel … as you know I have been in admiration of your intellect and a great deal of things you say on this blog.

      English not being your first language … albeit way better than my Spanish … I have long contended that the natural thing for all beings and especially young children is the propensity to learn. We can IMO learn without teachers or teaching … which is the way I feel all other creatures learn. Learning is simple and natural … teaching is complex and more often than not involves the ‘ego’ of the teacher. Perhaps the only one to come close to refraining for that was A. S. Neil (of Summerhill).

      Art went to see him and was a great admirer of his work. I too knew someone that attended Summerhill and after 3 years of just sitting around eventually just went to the classroom and in 5 months (according to him) learned everything he should have learned in those 3 years. He was a very smart guy and the son of a famous radio actor of those days.


    • Phil says:

      Miguel, I think you are right that having the word scream in the title helped make the book a best seller. But it is also a problem when people think of it as a type of scream therapy.


  205. Margaret says:

    in response to Daniel, I think when we have made enough connections about a certain feeling the process of healing and growing, developing the part that was partially cut off, starts happening spontaneously.
    on the other hand, I think, specially when we are badly damaged and start therapy in a later stage of our life, there will always remain a lot of ‘scar tissue’ or sore spots and some of the pain will linger in the background and occasionally be triggered again.
    but to quote Barry, we get better at tolerating the pain and not act it out.

    in my experience it can all be true, from great and instant relief to only partial dissipation and the necessity of having to go over the same kind of stuff over and over again. still even in that case there seems always to be some subtle evolution.

    I find it fascinating and although I know I definitly have to accept certain losses, there is the major gain of liking myself more, trusting myself and letting go of more and more feelings of shame.

    I htink over the years I have become a nicer person, as the anger and resentment diminishes when fear and insecurity diminish.

    from a ‘tough’ and often agressive person I can accept now I am actually kind of shy in certain situations and scared to be hurt.
    that is ok.

    like right now I become kind of almost teary, this therapy does not solve it all but for me personally has added so much depth to my life, some of the depth that should be our natural birthright, and that to me is priceless.

  206. Patrick says:

    Just heard this on the radio, I love the radio here…………….

  207. Patrick says:

    Inspired by that song here is something I wrote to a friend this morning

    “all the beauty that has been lost before/wants to find us again”

    I think of my mom too…………….what I got from her death or really talking to her before her death was something like that. The hope and expectation she had of her marriage and how it was dashed, but it never went away, it was something in her, she refused to think it was ‘right’ what was done to her, that became stubborness and bitterness and anger later but the real thing is these were reactions to the dashing of her love and her hopes and dreams. So she sees me growing up getting bigger and stronger, putting on a tie, wearing a suit……………..BAM! kill him, kill him now before he becomes another monster, another swaggering griffin who will put me down even lower…………….and she did ‘kill’ me……………

    And it struck me just now the same could be said of me and my ‘gripes’ about PT. This is not to endlessly ‘blame’ and a lot of it is was/is my misunderstandings BUT there was/is a ‘reality’ too. I cannot accept the ‘sanitized’ history of PT, I refuse to be just a good group member. For me at least ‘truth’ is important and in the bigger outside world Miguel and Tom here have talked about the ‘influence’ Janov has had…………..what strikes me is the LACK of influnce given the profound promise contained in the idea. Something happened here (to me) but not ONLY to me……….to me it is all of a piece and the piece mostly spells ‘failure’ (to me)………….but not ONLY to me………..repeat endlessly in an infinite loop……..well that’s what I am trying NOT to do……….to ‘blame’ Janov and the PI is to give them too much power………I need to ‘let go’ of that too and live my life according to my lights not the darkness and mistakes in all that………

  208. Daniel, You bring up a good point and this is something we have discussed often. I think the tricky part is evaluating whether the void that is left is another aspect of the old feeling pushing through to the surface or is it something to be explored in the present. I believe both things can be done. Of course we can never be the person we might have been had we lived completely healthy lives . Maybe that is something we have to grieve. All that being said I do think you bring up an important part of the process, definitely worth exploring in therapy. To those concerned about my suggestion that the Primal Scream have a different title 🙂 I was not entirely serious and I certainly think there were positives in that choice – consider it stream of consciousness! Gretch

  209. Miguel says:

    Thank you Jack for your comments on me.

    Gretchen I think in the dialectic process, the pass and present ( how to live fulfilled lives as much as possible) are the two sides of the same coin: To live our lives as best as possible).

    I think what Janov did was right: to touch and shake the lives of thousands and he did it. To do that he had to call the attention of those people in the first place and that is not easy with so many different therapies and magical cures going around and in the middle of the franzie of Cognitive-Behavioral therapies.

    We might argue that Primal Therapy arose too many expectations. And what you said Gretchen we can not live a totally fufilling lives the same as if we had had loving and caring paretns. We con only grieve about it and learn how to better our lives in the present.

    Anyway Janov wrote many times about the dangers in the misuses of Primal Therapy.

    If we take Primal Therapy as a powerful tool that can touch and sake our lives in a deep way and meaningful way and bring us close to the personality we should had had if not were for the Pain, that is all we can expect from this therapy which is quite a lot for me. And if neurosis is the pathology of feelings ( taken them in a meaningfull and integrated way), one we can begin feeling again and that is the cure as Vivian used to say, no more nor less. There is no magic: this a materialistic and dialectic process , we leave the magic to have fun.

    And that is a very idiosincratic process, very different and one can go as far or less far in this process. But if one continues on and on calling at the door of our uncouncious memories, that memories and feelings associated with them will be rendered.


  210. Miguel says:

    I feel curiosity how many different nationatilies live in the USA.

    One of the biggests and important comunities are latin people, who speak so well English and Spanish.

    When I go to the disco I liked so much this song by Mark Anthony: Vivir la vida: Live your own life.

    In the interwie New Yorker and Puertorican Mart Anthony is asked if he is entitled to sing God Bless America. He answers he is a New Yorker and Puerto Rican (American territory). He speaks such a nice Spanish.

    He talks in his beatiful song about living life at fullest at the present.

    He says I am going to live, to sing, to dance. Theres is only a life, live, live laralala.

    He says why to cry, why to suffer. I do not agree with that , but I agree with Mark Anthony to live at fullest. There is only one life and we have to live it at fullest.

    Although I am agnostic ,God Bless America and Puerto Rico

    This is the link for Vivir la Vida by Mark Anthony

  211. Margaret says:

    that comment was very well written, Miguel, Margaret

  212. Margaret says:

    ps I referred specially to the reply you wrote before the one about vivir la vida, smiley, o sonrisa

  213. Miguel says:

    Thanks so much Margaret


  214. Larry says:

    i wish the interplay between me and my parents when I moved back home at 4 after having left at 1 1/2, had been the same as that between this just adopted dog and its new owner. I don’t remember any hugging between us ever, my whole life.

    • Larry says:

      It would have made a lifetime of difference to me.

    • Jack W says:

      That is so … so! sad Larry. Jack

      • Larry says:

        I’m touched that you are so affected, Jack.

        Here is something for you. It is from the man who lives without money:

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Are you ready to put your bankroll and your S.S. checks in escrow, Jack? Live off the fat of the land?

        • Jack W says:

          Larry: I read the link you offered, but there were some misconceptions about his whole life and being. The first of these was the he started out by having enough money to get those things that would then facilitate his ability to live on the lowest rung of the (money) ladder. He needed a trailer and at lest a few things like buckets to fetch water … and on and on and on. There are millions of people who just wished they could win the lottery (one maybe Guru) and then they could rid themselves of the shackles of “as they perceive ‘living without money'”. Life on the planet not just us humans is a co-operative effort … in that without any one creature then all the others fail and then we’d finish up being another planet like Mars or Saturn.

          So for me to get back “on my hobby horse” again I say that living without money has to be a totally co-operative factor. The guy in the article did acknowledge several necessities to live … as I would characterize him. He needed to live near a river … on a piece of land that he could live there rent free, to be as near to nature … unlike the rest of us … so that it would appear he was living WITHOUT money … whereas as I see him he was living in the barest of minimums (NOT WITHOUT IT; a mis-characterization of his situation. So!!!!! all the smart Alec’s like Guru that suggest I do it alone, miss the essence of a FACTOR that we humans in order to supposedly make it easier actually do the very opposite and make it so ‘fucking’ complicated and then DEEM (that dirty word again … according to Patrick’s philosophy) that it is all for the best. The best that we have become inundated with and wonder why the hell all the suicides, depression, shear fucking boredom, greed and live a life most of which is spent “WISHING …..”.

          So!!!! Larry: et al, we need to get back to that, that for 90 per cent of our existence … we lived by … according to the writer of your article.

          I will repeat for those that didn’t get it on first read. It is a “CONCEPTUAL LEAP” in ones thinking “It has to be a co-operative effort” … to rid ourselves of this unutterable stupid system that one way or another we ALL of us complain about … even the rich … but think (stupidly cos we’ve been doing it for years) that it is the only way it can be. BULL-SHIT.


          • THE Ultimate Guru says:


            As noble as your goal to abolish money may sound, how would you plan to have property owners give up the entire concept of owning anything at all?

            Included in this stockpile of goodies owned in America are 300 million guns.

            Wouldn’t some angry gun owners be firing off some shots first before giving up their possessions?

            • Jack W says:

              Guru: If instead of asking the questions, you were to do a bit of your own “contemplating”; then there would be a chance that you too could become a “noble” thinker. (nice compliment, but I can’t REALLY claim any credit).

              First off, I was not the first … nor will I be the last to “conceive” (maybe that will now become a ‘dirty’ word as well) of reversing something we created. If we can create it … we can abolish it, but beware the you don’t in abolishing it ‘run down another rabbit hole’ of substituting it with another ‘exchange’ system.

              This is why I consider that both you and Patrick are crooked thinkers. You’ve always, as most of us tend to do … when confronted by a new and/or radical THOUGHT to have a ready answer … without giving the radical idea any REAL THOUGHT.

              In reality I have no idea how it all would all work out if we were to abolish money: nobody does, but that is not to say that we should give the idea a great deal of thought … As did Proudhon, Engels Marx, Kropotkin and Bakunin and many more. The current system necessitates that most of all of us do boring work for the major part of our lives, then have to create governance to keep it all in some (hopeful) order by creating laws, then create prison for those that don’t obey those laws, then police (usually the bullies of the world) to make sure we ‘peons’ do the lawmakers bidding. What we’ve created is slowly killing ourselves and maybe the planet with us, just to keep some stupid system going that most of us can only think/feel we should just TWEAK. It’s the system that’s fucked, but we are way too afraid to change it … cos in essence we are far too afraid of change.

              That is precisely why the notion of living life from a FEELING perspective rather than a rational one … that the Primal notion didn’t take off. Feelings had become alien to us neurotics and we would rather keep our act-outs, rather than feel the deep hurts of child-hood. Way too threatening … for most of us. We want instant answers … not something that we need to live by for the rest of our lives.

              Incidentally I did meet one other “anarchists” as we are deemed; in Primal Therapy. A much younger guy than me, and for reason completely unknown to me, we were put together as buddies at one retreat and thereafter became good friends, until he returned east to go back to be with his family.


              • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                Well you certainly give my eye muscles a thorough rolling, stretching workout. Kudos to you for that, Jack!

          • Patrick says:

            Plus the guy is Irish…………what the fuck could or would he know about ‘conceptual leaps’………….it takes some REALLY REALLY ‘smart’ people to do that like some really ‘exceptional’ people………….

            • Jack W says:

              Not much … it seems. He’d rather think it all over, over 5 pints of Guinness, then forgive the bad guys (to make a good laugh) if they would just do 3 Hail Marys. Maybe we could rename it all Guinness Therapy; a la the Irish


  215. Patrick says:

    I can imagine Larry. Below is something I wrote to a friend this morning. Please excuse the lenght and just ignore if it does not pique your interest. For some reason though it is important that people here ‘see’ me also. It’s like I am dealing with all my ‘running away’ from here but I don’t want to ‘run away’ from here (the blog) either.

    “Last night I arranged to meet one of the ‘bullies’ from my time in primary school at the local bar. Actually he was not really one of them, he was the older brother of one who was at least in my mind, but actually they ALL were (bullies) in my mind. Generalization habit started early I’m afraid, I HAD to generalize to ‘survive’ or at least I thought so.

    But now having met him Pat is his name at my mom’s wake and funeral plus another day I stopped my bike and talked to him and his son I have quite a good feeling about him, that’s why I actually called him last night and said I will be at the bar. Anyway I’m waiting for him at the bar, nursing my Guinness and I actually cry a little thinking…………… ‘alien’ I am here, how alien I felt and I remembered my parents driving me to boarding school (not the first time was later maybe I am 14 y.o.) and in the back of their car they are doing all this for me, they both seem in a good mood too and many feelings running through my mind. I remember being ‘red in the face’ which even at the time I recognized as ‘feelings on the rise’ I even opened the window of the car wide to have the wind cool my face, also I did not want to show up to all my fancy new friends ‘red in the face’ like a little peasant boy, the little peasant boy I really was. But they are driving me 40 miles, using my dad’s car and gas and time and I have some new clothes, I feel unworthy of all that the time and attention and the money they spent on me.

    The other thing about it……………was the pure ‘escape’ I had made from my nightmare in the local school. Like in a way I can’t believe it was that easy, I ‘got away’ scot free almost, I am only 14 and I am already ‘gone’ gone from them, their cruelty and violence and hatred towards me, I got away I never thought of myself as being so clever not at least that kind of clever but see there I suceeded, I have done it all and it has turned out far better than I ever could have imagined.

    Anyway that’s what I was thinking about last night waiting for the guy and I cried a little………….because there was sadness there too, the sadness of ‘escape’ I had turned my back on everyone and everything and it worked like a dream, but almost was a dream, I was now living a dream, a dream world but not so real world. The guy comes in and we talk and basically have a good talk he has travelled a lot including to America several times and ‘all the major capitals of Europe’ We drink some more Guinness another guy comes in who lives half the year in Austin TX and half here.

    None of this is so important then Patricia my first cousin comes in with her husband, she if one the Griffin’s in Stradbally who causes us a lot of the problems at school. You asked me once WHY we were bullied, long story short there was a ‘family feud’ between my dad and his brother who lived a mile away and ran the creamery, anyway they then kind of turned more of them against us, plus my parents were ‘weirdos’ in a way anyway Patricia is his daughter, younger than me by maybe 5 years. I met her at the funeral and wake and have a very good feeling about her, she is out going friendly to a fault you might say, also good looking very good body shape etc. So now we are all at the bar and well I ‘like’ them all and they seem to ‘like’ me. They start kind of telling stories about me and I sort of feel the centre of attention a little bit and as they are talking to/about me I start to cry but softly, not a ‘scene’ or nothing like that, but tears are coming down my face. Anyway I let it happen, it’s like I want that to happen…………..becuase I want to tell them ‘I am not an asshole like maybe they might think, I am not a resentful or superior or anything else guy, they see me crying and they pause a little bit, but then gradually I pull out of it and the conversation laughing joking telling stories resumes.

    Not a big deal but I was ‘happy’ to do that, somehow I conveyed something to them (I think) eventually we leave I give Patricia a close hug and she to me and she says maybe it’s good for J to have you around for a while, to help him get over the two women (my mom and Joan who also died in Novemeber – remember) and I left feeling you know good, like I had made some progress in communicating and burying all the horrible painful past (for me). Though all were kind of drunk the “American” and Pat drove me home and I stumbled into the house 3.5 pints of Guiness in me. I did not sleep so much anyway I wanted to tell you

    What were the ‘stories’ they were telling about me? Pat said he will never forget one day at the creamery we were all lined up with our horses and cart with the tanks of milk and I was in line he right behind me. And he said something about my dad and ‘he will never forget it’ I said something like whatever my dad would do would be ‘stupid anyway’ so he said it struck him like I was a guy who did not just go along with the ‘program’ I thought for myself etc. See they would like me for that because my parents were considered ‘assholes’ in the area and by me saying that I was letting them know I was no longer with that program. I was ‘communicating’ like I was last night with my tears. It’s not a big thing but I liked what Pat was saying though to call my dad ‘stupid’ I dunno you can see how disgruntled and angry I was getting. I was about 19 y.o. at the time maybe a year before I read Primal Scream.

    Patricia said 2 of her brothers knew me in College and they always talked very good about me. That’s why recently two of them came back to the house but I was gone………..she said they really wanted to talk to me. It was around then I started to cry and then she said and kind of under her breath said ‘I should not say this but they all like(d) you more than J (my brother). I cried and actually am crying now because I felt ‘seen’ by them……… who has been so elusive and hidden, who has ran away so much from them somehow they do not hold it against me, the want to ‘love’ me and welcome me back.

    That’s the thing also I have told you ……….the Irish culture is so lovely at it’s best, even my ‘bullies’ are lovely, it was all a gigantic mistake, they are good people. Can you imagine we lived ONE mile from our first cousins and like never had anything to do with them really. like I told you before I want to take you around to all these PLACES, there were no ‘people’ there growing up only places. Now I can kind of populate the places with the people the SAME people who were there all the time”

    • Larry says:

      Wow Patrick. You are opening like a plant blossoming. Thanks for sharing. I can imagine being there with you, and “getting it”.

      • Patrick says:

        Thanks Larry also Margaret and Miguel. I have always had this kind of instinct about ‘therapy’ like I have to do it HERE, here where it happened. That underlies a lot of my ‘complaints’ about PT way back in the 1970’s the LAST thing I wanted to do was go to LA, to me if Janov could have found a way (wanted to) make PT available to the people especially in Europe where there was a big demand for it……….I could imagine it would almost develope it’s own ‘flavors’ according to the different characteristics of the people here.Like Irish PT would be a little different than say Italian PT. But he embarked on a very different way, made it exclusive and ‘universalist’ at the same time, a kind of recipe for it to become some kind of ’boutique’ therapy which I think in many ways it has become.

        I mentioned earlier how when I was leaving here in 1978 I felt it had big implications even for the people here, well now the papers are full of concerns about ‘depression’ ‘obesity’ ‘suicide’ you name it and I see little or NO influence of ‘primal’. I may just be dreaming here, there is something it seems about humanity and the modern world that seems destined to do everything wrong, like we are on a path to destruction and we are determined to get there! And it seems that we will.

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Patrick: One small question, OK? Can you share who referred you to Janov’s books? I’m not asking you to name names…was it a friend, etc?

          • Patrick says:

            Guru – I don’t mind at all I could go on…and on….the first time I heard about Janov was John Lennon’s interview in Rolling Stone (I was ‘hip’ or trying to be even in those days) and Lennon gave a fair and thorough description of it and I thought now that makes total sense, makes all the sense in the world.

            So this is not ‘rocket science’ who was I just a muddled teenager and I could ‘see’ it immediatly. Then one of those stange coincidinces I ‘fell in love’ for the first time and ‘tried’ to tell the girl my ‘feelings’ about her and instead broke down into a very heavy sobbing session ( to be completly honest I HAD been drinking (a lot) but this was only to give me the ‘courage). Afterwards I actually kind of passed out but I ‘awoke’ with such a strong feeling of peace, the kind of peace I had never known or certainly ‘forgotten’ about). I was ‘wondering’ about that as a philosopy/psychology student I was a bit intrigued.

            Anyway literally about 3 weeks later what is the ‘big new book’ being featured in Eason’s bookstore in Cork….Janov’s The Primal Scream………….in all it’s garishness and ‘shock’ value. Still I thought mmm…. John Lennon, this crying fit I had………….I think I need to read this. As I said somewhere here before the book took me over I was in a daze of self recognition and total amazement at the same time. When I ‘finished’ it I think I was in shock actually…….it took me a while also I was supposed to be sitting final exams in college in a few months. I was trying to concentrate but could not and somewhere a plan dawned to just skip the exams and go to London to do ‘primal therapy’. Must be there right, everything can be had in London, and that was a huge shock gradually it dawned on me NO it is not and gradually reluctantly over time I put my tail between my legs and accepted I would have to journey into the heart of the “Evil Empire” LA and the US (I am channeling Ronald Reagan what he called the Soviet Union, but what goes around comes around )

            But to me personally what is a great shame is I think it would have much more meaning THERE I mean HERE in Ireland/UK. And honestly I do ‘blame’ Janov in that respect I think in many ways his own greed, egotism etc overcame his hopefully better judgement

            • THE Ultimate Guru says:

              OK Patrick, thank you for telling me your story of how it all started for you. I’ll only add that although I could write a lot singing the praises of Primal Therapy, I do feel a great sense of caution when approaching Janov’s writings. Too much more to write about when my energy is needed elsewhere so I let this one go….

  216. Margaret says:


    I see nothing wrong with wanting some attention, specially not if being straightforward about it. I think that can actually be healing, and scary, as in breaking the habit of being indirect about it. yes, haha, talking about myself here.

    Patrick, not a little thing at all, I actually shed a tear while reading your account of your evening in the pub, it is impressive imo..

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Margaret: Ah, never mind my concern about the attention, OK? I took a look at Patrick’s last post and I realized how laughably overstated my own concern was.

  217. Miguel says:

    Vow, Patrick:

    It seems that what is happening to you is a big step.

    It is a pity that sometimes in families there are so many hatred, discord, quarrels, misunderstandings and children suffer as a result of this bad atmosphere among family members.


  218. Patrick says:

    One thing I am enjoying very much here is the kind of ‘anarchic’ humor of the people but also on radio and television. Last night there was priceless skit about how they disovered a lot oil in Ireland and right away the US was there to ‘liberate’ the people from it’s ‘oppressive regime’. Pretty soon too they were finding ‘chemical weapons’ etc. Hilarious and rings pretty true to me. But what is even nicer the whole time the Irish make fun of themselves and mock themselves. As much fun they make about the “Pentagon Liberation Force” they make even more fun of their own Government etc.

    When I look at the BBC it seems staid and boring by comparison. Watching David Cameron ‘lecturing’ the Russians is eneough to make me sick. Ireland also has always had this ‘neutral’ stance in most of the great conflicts and it is nice to see that is still around. They have this kind of anarchic on the edge of a Continent feeling about them……..

  219. Miguel says:

    Hi Patrick

    I am with you that one thing is goverments and onother is people living in their countries. Most and most people do not feel represented by their politicians and it’s all a farce, a crude theater, a tragic comic issue.

    Most people laugh at their alleged political representatives and probably it is the best they can do and can be done.

    Every time I’m lees and less interested in politics and more less what the neighbor tells me and in the the music and dance.

    This song and dancing are causing a stir in Spain and in Lating American countries.

    Enrique Iglesias, Descemer Bueno y Gente de Zona. Bailando (Dancing)


    I see you and this takes my breath away.
    When you look at me I feel my heart
    (My heart beats slowly)

    And in silence your look tells a thousand of words.
    The night when I’m begging of you not to let the sun rise.
    (Dancing, dancing, dancing, dancing)
    Your body and mine filling the void
    Moving up and down (up and down)
    (Dancing, dancing, dancing, dancing)
    That fire inside me is driving me crazy
    It’s filling me up

    With your physics and your chemistry and your anatomy
    Beer and tequila and your mouth with mine
    And I can’t take it any more (and I can’t take it any more)
    And I can’t take it any more (and I can’t take it any more)
    With this tune, your colour, your fantasy
    With your philosophy my head is empty
    And I can’t take it any more (and I can’t take it any more)
    And I can’t take it any more (and I can’t take it any more)

    I want to be with you, to live with you
    to dance with you, to have
    a crazy night with you (a crazy night)
    and kiss your mouth (kiss your mouth)
    I want to be with you, to live with you
    to dance with you, to have a crazy night with you,
    with a tremendously crazy one
    (Ooooh, ooooh, ooooh, ooooh)


    The link:

  220. Miguel says:

    This morning I red the article by A. Janov´s blog about how important the sense of smell is for the recovery of old memories and for feeling in general.

    The sense of smell is the most primitive of the senses and as Janov says is the highway to the memories, memories and feelings of the limbic system.

    Janov says in his latest article blog “A Past without a Memory”

    “And if we want to retrieve very early memories of gestation, birth and infancy we need to understand the memory system; for our very earliest memories are of smells; so early that they bypass the usual routes, and travel directly to the limbic/feeling system, directly to the memory centers. Memory of odors are idea, concept and situation free; they are pure and unadulterated”

    Reading this article I remember the day I spend at the barbacue with the person that would become my girl friend and some other people, some of them are now friends also.

    As I have said before, when my girlfriend left the barbacue place with her girlfriend, she was very excited and said to her girlfriend “ I had smelled him ( referring to me). since she had smelled me, she could trust me, that is, her heart had vibrated, she had felt very deeply about me and therefore she could trust me.

    I remember the article Gretchen wrote earlier in this blog about trusting

    Other men had tried to gain her confidence but could not.

    What happened was that: I had been sick and tired of being alone. I decided to do something important, as if it were a job, something professional or almost a professional event. Then I was kind to her, listened, spoke her in a low, whispering voice. In primal terms is as if he had opened the gate or help a little bit.. All this in a careful, respectful and friendly way.

    She wanted to see if that scent about me, that , that made her shiver was real or if she was going crazy.

    And since then ( a month and a half) has emerged a friendship, love, tenderness and amazing confidence between us.

    So I have suggested her the therapy and we will try to go to a few weeks to Los Angeles as soon as possible.

    So I am grateful to A. Janov and the Primal Institute for this therapy.

    Thanks A. Janov: Go on preaching even though you sometimes might look as if your voice cries out in the middle of the desert. But soon the desert might have as many followers as grains of sand.


  221. Joe M says:

    Sounds like someone I knew. . .

  222. Patrick says:

    Hard to ‘top’ that Joe. Here is a song I heard on the radio here this morning (I love the radio here) which I thought was interesting. And yes I would say I am ‘working on’ seeing things from the ‘other side’

  223. Patrick says:

    Another ‘radio’ song………….(sorry)

  224. Patrick says:

    The retreat has not started already has it………….or I did not know my ‘musical selections’ turned people off that much…………I have a few more (honest)……….but I will refrain (today)…………

  225. vicki says:

    This story got to me, below are some excerpts.

    “Hidesaburo Ueno, born in Japan in 1871, was a professor in the agriculture department at the University of Tokyo. His dog, Hachiko, would sit by the front door and see him off for work every day and greeted him at 4 o’clock at the nearby train station when he returned from work.

    One evening, Professor Ueno didn’t show up on his usual train. Earlier in the day, on May 21st 1925, Dr. Ueno suffered a stroke and died at the University. Hachiko went home when his master didn’t arrive, but showed up on time the next day to wait for the professor to return on the train. He continued to arrive at the station at 4 o’clock every day, faithfully waiting for his master to return.

    Many commuters saw the Professor and his loyal dog together each day when he was still alive. These commuters would bring Hachiko treats and food when he showed up. Hachiko who was now without his master, was sent to the home of relatives or friends, but without fail he continued to wait at the platform every day, searching for his best friend’s face in the crowd. Hachiko would, without fail, show up on time at the Shibuya Station when the train was due at the station, and continued to do so for ten years.

    Hachiko died in 1935, after ten years of returning to the station every day looking for the professor. The Shibuya train station installed a bronze statue of Hachiko at the exact spot where he waited, where it will always remain waiting for his master.”

  226. vicki says:

    Coincidentally, I found another song I like – Lennon & Maizie Stella do a cover of “That’s What’s Up” (by Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zero’s)

    “That’s What’s Up”

    I’ll be the church, you be the steeple. You be the King, I’ll be the people.
    While I was feeling such a mess, I thought you’d leave me behind.
    While I was being such a wreck, I thought you’d treat me unkind.
    But you helped me change my mind.

    I’ll be the sun, you be the shining. You be the clock, I’ll be the timing.
    While I was feeling such a mess, I thought you’d leave me behind.
    While I was feeling so upset, I thought the sun never shine.

    Then I found Forever Hey! Hey! love!
    We’ve been best friends forever darling. That’s’ what’s up!

    Forever! No matter what!
    You’ve got my love to lean on darling. That’s what’s up!
    You’ve got my love to lean on darling. No matter what!

    You be the book, I’ll be the binding. You be the words, I’ll be the rhyming.
    While I was feeling such a wreck, I thought of losing my mind.
    While I was feeling such a mess, I thought the sun never shine.

    You be the bird, I’ll be the feather. We’ll be the best of friends forever.
    While I was feeling such a mess I thought you’d leave me behind.
    When I was feeling such a wreck, I thought you’d treat me unkind.
    Then I found

    Forever! And Always! You’ve got my love to lean on darling.
    All the days! Forever! Come with me!
    You’ve got my love to lean on darling. All the days!

    You’ve got my love to lean on darling. All the days All of our days
    Yeah… Love is a shelter. Love is a cause. Love goes on forever.
    Yeah, Love will leads us all. Love! It is our honor. Love! It is our all.
    Love goes on forever. Yeah, Love it is our home.

    Oh yeah! Yeah! That’s what’s up!
    Oh yeah! That’s what’s up!
    Yeah That’s what’s up!

  227. Margaret says:

    feel stressed with all the hassles before leaving I still need to deal with.

    yesterday we went to our mom, and I felt very tired after a late night with a singing performance and some drinks afterwards.
    so while my brother and mom were having dinner I lay down on the couch and listened to them in the other room.

    I really hurt listening to my mom’s incessant need for attention, her ending every sentece with ‘huh?’ or another equivalent of ‘isn’t it?’ thus forcing some kind of feedback from my brother.

    it made me feel so lonely and desperate, really hurting almost physically.
    then she asked him for the fifteenth time if I did not want to eat and he replied once more, patiently, I had already eaten at home before leaving my place so was not hungry.

    then she did come over to me and asked me if I didn’t want a blanket, and actually I did, and she fetched one and tucked me in and stroked me over my hair.

    that touched me and made me realize how she also has this tender caring side which I love and cherish.

    thinking back of it, and how she is really getting older I just cried, such a stron mixture of huge need, irritation and frustration, love, fear, despair, it is all there.

    now more and more I realize myself I will never get that ‘complete’ connection, or even ‘normal’ or ‘real’ connection I crave, she is too fucked up. excuse me the word, it was what came to mind first.

    it is so sad, makes me and my brother on some basic level so lonely, so manipulated and controlled and yet in so much need.


  228. Miguel says:


    Nice story about this dog Hachiko. I saw the movie.

    There was another story of a dog called Balto, who helped a child to overcome diphtheria, helping to get the medicament for that disease from a remote place in Alaska. He inspired a whole nation and became a legend.

    The song is very touchy, beautiful. Thanks Vicky.

    Margaret; what you describe is sad; it is basically that neurotics are basically selfish, because they are emotionally like children and children are selfish. They have many needs to fulfill.

    That is the reason why from my point of view many couples fail, because most of them are like children and children cannot have grown-up, mature relationships.

  229. Margaret says:

    the lyrics of the song you posted sounded intriguing, so I wanted to listen to it but could not detect the link.

    do you want to say what the song represents for you in your personal life?it made me wonder why it struck you.

    • vicki says:

      Margaret, the link is at the bottom of the post, immediately after the lyrics, I’m sorry you couldn’t detect it. I liked the gentle singing, and the lines, “While I was feeling such a mess, I thought you’d leave me behind. While I was being such a wreck, I thought you’d treat me unkind.” sound so simple, I have felt that way for sure. The two sisters are such a pair of harmony, one quite young, and the other a teenager. I remember reading what someone wrote about the Everly Brothers, that when two people sing who are related, there is a natural harmony in their voices, that only occurs among those biologically-related, that it comes from their shared genetics. — Vicki

  230. Margaret says:

    that is so true.
    my mother is so very much like a child,, so very much.

    I remember once, still being a child myself, hearing my dad during an argument with my mother angrily shouting at her:’you are a real small child!’ and my immediate reaction of panic and terror, feeling no no no, don’t say that please, dad, it is too sharp, too destructive, too true and devastating!!

    it was too painful for me probably too to hear it being said so clearly, and my immediate impulse was to want to protect, even if I could not do so right then.

    with a person like that, obviously still the child, well, in my mother’s case anyway, the surface between the underlying pain seems so thin, and the pain so massive.

    or is it just me being brainwashed, hard to tell.

    it is all sad, knowing her history and seeing why she had to fall back on remaning the child in order to survive, and also seeing and feeling what the effect was for us, her children.

    I curse her mother who left her almost to die in her crib, and abandoned her so she had to be raised in some kind of orphanage, and I curse the guy who raped her at the age of twelve on one of her visits home.

    it was one key event that made her decide to cling to her formally ‘happy’ feeling of being a child, a conscious decision, she told me at one stage, not to let that guy turn her world into an ugly, nasty place.

    in many ways it did save her, enabled her to still revel over birds and flowers and things, but at a high cost.

    her need is unsociable, and has impacted all the lifes of the people surrounding her.

    it makes her a person can both hate and deeply love at the same time.

    and my own need will also remain bottomless on some basic level that might never be restored.

    i am glad me and my brother are closer again, it helps so much to be able to try and see, and deal with reality as best as possible. that means taking care of ourselves while being kind and taking care of her as well if necessary.

    sad reality.

  231. Margaret says:

    just found out I am still not signed up for the course I am actually already studying.
    probably computer problems at the university..

    also found out there are only one or two courses left that are transposed to audio or digital material.
    the other fifty odd courses are not…

    so I definitely will have to look for solutions myself soon, but no time for that right now.

    i hate having unsolved problems though, they seem to keep taking up space and energy in my mind, causing stress..

    one consolation is I have several options to explore, ways of scanning texts and transposing them to pdf or textformat, or devices to transpose them to audio material, or paying to have them read in an audio studio and recorded..

    will look at it after my trip..

    not much news from the statistics prof either, probably busy with other students exams..

    at least the ‘cognitions’ course from sternberg is quite chewy so it will keep me busy for a while. can only digest it by small chunks..

    tomorrow will meet the cat lady, same one as last year who in vain tried to make friends with my cat while I was abroad..

    hate to leave her behind knowing she will be listening for my footsteps on the stairs for three weeks in a row..

    but twice a day at least it will be the lady to feed her and clean out the you know what..

    by the way, Vicky, there are Japanese tourists who specially visit Belgium to look up a small statue of a dog here in Antwerp.

    there is an old story similar to the one you refer to, we have here, and the book was also turned into a movie and had a lot of succes in Japan.
    so as so many tourists asked about it here, they made that little statue to please those Japanese tourists, as the story here was actually not very famous, being old.

    I find it hard to imagine right now I will be able to do everything I still need to do in order to leave for L.A.

    again that feeling of ‘I will not make it’, or I can’t cope, am not up to it’.

    ha, and Vicky, if you arrive first at the retreat, can you please save me a bottom bunk??
    I promise to do the same for you!

  232. Fiona says:

    Hi Gretchen – new Page if you would please? Ipad having seizures….

  233. Patrick says:

    Don’t want to be going on about the radio (a proxy for the country!) all the time but one thing that is so cool about it is how unpredicable it is. Probably because there are still only a few radio stations for the whole country there is this kind of great mix. One minute Nicki Minaj, the next a country and western song, the next some punk rock. In the US there is all this ‘market segmentation’ and each stations caters to some pre-defined ‘audience’. So you get all these micro worlds none speaking to each other (Tower of Babel)

    So each morning I wake up and listen and don’t know what I will find but it nearly always surprises me and interests and delights me. Just now I heard this and it seems so ironic a song about LA but a song I never heard while I was there (maybe my fault) but here I am in the remote west of Ireland and this thing comes on. I love his thing about LA as being ‘like Nashville with a tan’. This also for some reason reminds me of Gretchen not as the subject of the song at all, just maybe some people she might have met. I wonder if she has a reaction

    • Patrick, Sorry it took me so long to respond… I can see actually why you might have thought of me! Gretch

      • Patrick says:

        Gretchen – and I am even ‘sorrier’ to take even longer lol. I don’t get these as emails so sometimes just miss things entirely, just saw this now. I like your answer very “meta” though you don’t really answer the question IMO an old ‘primal’ trick but that’s cool………..though you are part of the “Primal Establishment” you escape my ire totally for some reason………….I don’t know what your ‘secret’ is maybe just that you are a good person…………possibly as simple as that IMHO………

  234. Patrick says:

    The other thing that is taking up a lot of my time is the World Cup (soccer). And the Dutch are at it again, doing graceful and beautiful things like this in their first game last week, more tonight……..

  235. Miguel says:

    Hi Patrick.

    So sweet and tender the song.

    The Dutch won the Spanish team by a convincing 5-1

    What teams are your favorites to win the World Cup?

    Mine: Germany and the Netherlands


    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – ‘favorites’ as in I would like the Netherlands to win as always. They have always suffered the ‘beautiful losers’ syndrome – I guess I identify with that. As to who will actually win it it is a ‘fools game’ to bet or guess but anyway at this point I would ‘guess’ Argentina or even maybe Chile. But who knows……………..nobody.

  236. Margaret says:

    yesterday ‘we’ Belgians played on the worldcup football.

    I don’t particularly like football, but against my expectations was caught by the game this time anyway, although I could not make out much of what was to be seen, the commentator’s descriptions filled me in.

    it is amazing how I, and obviously all others, were dragged into the turmoil of feelings from hope to disappointment to facing possible failure to excitement and new hope and then finally to the exhilaration of winning with 2 to 1 from Algeria.

    it seemed impossible not to get sucked in into the wave of empathy with the players, and with the spectators all investing their hopes in the same ‘goal’…


  237. Patrick says:

    I am in London now visiting some people here…………..and I have to say it does not appeal to me (anymore) I used to really like it, find it ‘exciting’ etc but not anymore. Maybe overly influenced by Dr Kruse but being in the ‘tube’ with every other person on a cell phone, I can only imagine the amount of ‘non native electro magnetic frequencies’ all bouncing around and swirling in a great haze of electro pollution. And seemingly everyone quite unaware of what might be happening to them. Or at the airport doors open for me when I am 15 feet away…………………how…………..some kind of ‘wireless technology’ this place is saturated with it and combine that with the English kind of clipped pragmatic attitudes, the horrendous over crowding to me at least it is not an attractive place (anymore)

    I felt sad leaving |Ireland (as usual) I was crying quite a bit on the plane as it was leaving, I thought ‘quietly’ but this older woman reached across the empty seat and actually took my hand and said ‘are you all right, why are you so sad’ I told her a little and she told me her husband of 40 years just died and then she started to cry a bit. So we sat next to each other and had a nice talk. She is Irish but living in England………………..anyway with the Irish that kind of thing can happen easily sometimes and I just get a visceral feeling it is a ‘healthier’ country for me than England. The last 3 days in Ireland the weather was good so I spent 3 whole days in this beautiful but also very secluded beach. It felt close to Paradise, just a great feeling and combined with the people it is no wonder Irish people get ‘homesick’

    I found in Ireland I slept better, the ‘electro smog’ problem at least way out in the west coast is small I would say………………..anyway it just feels to me I should/might make serious efforts to move back there.

    • Thomas Verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      “..anyway it just feels to me I should/might make serious efforts to move back there.”
      This took me by surprise. Going home.
      Everything you’ve written about your trip sounded like you feel like you belong in Ireland. Home.
      I wish I could go home.

      • Larry says:

        Amen Tom! After LA I returned home, only to learn in stages over the subsequent 30 years, that I never had much of one.

  238. Patrick says:

    Ireland of course for me is not without it’s/my problems. Yesterday I heard THIS on the radio which seemed to sum up a lot……………………….

  239. Larry says:

    I haven’t written here in a long time because it would always be about the same thing…I’m alone…I miss you Noreen…good-bye…I’m alone…

    I found a group of singles my age. I sometimes socialize with them. I sometimes socialize with people from the Unitarian community, sometimes with people from work, and on occasion with people from my bereavement group. Often I am more alone than I want to be. I was alone all day today. I shopped for groceries and clothes, but all day didn’t see or talk with anyone who I have acquaintance with. At the end of the day, after the shopping, alone, this evening I cried.

    It’s good for me to be enjoying time together with people who I know, but in the last months when with them I get a disquieting glimpse of how little I have. They have partners, or children and grandchildren, or friends who they frequently see. I feel like I have no one. I very rarely see anyone who wants to spend time with me. I feel like I have a hard time letting people in. I feel like I’m always on the fringe, just barely belonging, a bit of fluff in other people’s lives. I feel inconsequential. I ache for deep solid connection to someone, I don’t have it, and I’m not finding it. When I contemplate dating and growing a relationship with some lady, I feel I haven’t much to offer and why would someone be interested in me and my hollow life. There isn’t much in life I’m interested in any more. There is nothing much in life that drives me any more. I’m mostly just afraid, empty, and lost, hanging on to my job because it is all I have as retirement draws near.

    I remember what a frightened person I was when I met Noreen. I don’t know how I dared to let her in. My hope must have been greater than my fear. It was torture being on a date and taking her to a restaurant. As we sat ordering, waiting for, and eating our meal, I didn’t know what to say or how to be. I felt paranoid. I felt afraid of everyone overhearing and seeing me. I wanted to run out of there and get away. I was afraid of not measuring up to what was expected of me, whatever that was. I was afraid of not being normal and confident. I had so little experience of being in public, so little to share of interest in conversation, had no experience being on a date and had no business being with her on one. But I wanted her, and she seemed to want me despite all my flaws. Her voice, her smile, her eyes upon me, calmed me down and let me block out the paranoia from everything around me long enough to get through our meal and get out of there.

    She calmed me down through all our life together, helped me block out enough of the paranoia inside me to let me get on with life and enjoy some of it and make some of it worthwhile.

    Why was it otherwise so empty?

    In the past I’ve told you about a young woman in my bereavement group. It seems to me there is an interest between us that waxed, then waned. Lately I wonder whether it’s me who feels too afraid to get too close and she senses it and is just as afraid. Lately the interest is waxing again, and feels mutual. Sometimes the attraction between us feels powerfully compelling to me and catches me off guard, and I want it badly but don’t trust it and back away. There are so many reasons why I should be undesirable to her. I don’t know why I want her, or how real it is. I’m having a hard time imagining spending time with her.

    I’m having a hard time imagining any future for me, of any kind. I’m having a hard time finding joy. I’m too alone, too afraid, too empty, too worthless.

    I cried this evening because I had love once and now it’s gone, and most of my life I haven’t had any, and I very possibly never will again. I cried because I’ve seen and accomplished many things that I wanted to, against all odds and expectation, even falling in love and marrying and feeling grounded for a while in what normal life should be, despite immobilizing fear that weighed me down, and now it’s over and done and past, and I’m getting old and am running out of steam and don’t know where to take my life now or do I just fade away, alone.

    It is as simple that. Emptiness, fear, and feeling worthless wired me for failure and unfulfillment, for a life destined to be cold and short. Primal therapy showed me how to rewire enough of the pain so that I could let in love and find some meaning and warmth.

    It’s as real as that. Those days are over and I’m alone, afraid and lost again. I’m thankful for what I managed to have in my life and not the total bleakness that was in the cards. In the time I have left can I muster the desire and energy to do it again, to turn from the course of emptiness ahead toward something more meaningful, warm and joyful when it’s not the experience of my growing up?

    I’m afraid but not so fearful as I used to be, lost but know I was once before and somehow found a course. I’m alone again, like I always used to be, but now I can bear it better. When I stand back and look at the broad sweep of my life, and see that the greater bulk of it is over…what remains is uncharted and my time will run out, I wish I could…I need to hug and love my parents. They didn’t hug and love me like I needed them to. Now I realize the double whammy pain that I couldn’t hug and love them like I needed to. There was no room for loving and caring in our family. It’s what I want though. I want to hug them and love them even in my late adult stage. None of that happened. That’s what the void inside me is, the aloneness, the fear. It’s why I always felt like something was wrong with me, that I would never measure up; I needed a reason I could makes sense of for why I should be alone.

    I cry and I see that little guy who was me. Instead of despising him and wanting to get far away from him like I always have before, I see it’s not his fault that he’s not loved. He’s so alone and hurting so bad, and can’t resolve it, is a prisoner to it, and I approach and put my arms around him and comfort him and love him, and we merge and unleash in one long breath a sustained, deep wail of angry anguish at the crippling hurt and injustice of being unloved by them for all of my life.

    I left LA and returned home hoping things would be better. But primal therapy didn’t fix me. I have to fix me. Primal therapy showed me the path to truth that people run from for a lifetime, but doesn’t soften or make the truth palatable.

    I’ll always need it, but I’ll never know parental love. Never will they let me love and hug them like I needed to.

    At least I will love him, so that the child in me won’t be utterly and eternally alone. I will try to stop finding something wrong with him. He’s just a little kid, ready and capable of loving and being loved, needing it and deserving it.

    I can see now that I recoiled from interest and attention from anyone that threatened to awaken in me awareness of what I didn’t have, of deep emptiness, and that I needed to imagine that something was wrong with me in order to have an excuse to withdraw from them. I can see why, before therapy, I didn’t have friends and could barely hold a job.

    I see a little better why I’m afraid of the sometimes compelling attraction I have toward the young woman in my bereavement group, or of the possibility of love that she symbolizes to me. I hope I become less afraid of trying to get to know her and nature of our interest in each other,.

  240. Margaret says:

    Tom, you must be travelling now, how is your trip going ?

    • Thomas Verzar says:

      Hi Margaret
      My trip, so far, has been marred by a very bad cold. It started before I left Sydney. Medicine hadn’t helped.
      Presently, I am in Budapest, heading to Frankfurt on Tuesday, and on Friday to LA. Can’t wait.
      Met up with an old school mate, whom I haven’t seen in 54 years. Very emotional, for both of us.
      Tell you about it in more detail when I see you.

  241. Margaret says:

    I look forward to hearing about your trip and about how it was to see your old friend again.

    I am in the middle of packing which triggers a lot of fearful tension, scared to forget something important and also hard to choose which cloths to put on and to take with me…

    had an interesting dream, about seeing some playful school to learn circus acts, and I played along kicking a ball really high up into the air, and then trying to bounce it up again with my head in order to keep bouncing it that way.
    but then I missed the ball, could not focus well enough to see and aim clearly. it triggered immediate and intense pain, made me howl with the feeling of definite loss of those abilities, and the howling went on for a while.
    then still in the dream I ‘woke up’ and told someone I had had that feeling in a dream.
    a bit later I really woke up knowing that last part was still in a dream setting, and now I finally woke up into the ‘third’ layer of my bedroom..

    i had a nice birthday at my mother’s place, with her and my brother, and he will take me to the airport on thursday.

    feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the things to do and think of, so keep doing stuff bit by bit with still the knowledge of having time ‘enough’, but still feel scared on some deep irrational level.

    if I’d choose my own word for this retreat it might well be ‘FEAR’…


  242. Margaret says:

    Just had a real fright and hurt myself.
    I cane out of the kitchen, carrying a large plate of hot food in one hand and a big auudio book device in my other hand, and wanted to go and sit on a large terrace chair.

    I felt backwards with the side of my hand feeling the armrest of the chair, so started sitting down, when all of a sudden I realized myself in a split second, too late, I sat down to the wrong side of the armrest, so beside the chair,so I fell backwards slamming with the side of my back against the wall, and hitting the floor hard with my behind, as I also tried to save both the reading device and the plate with hot food.

    it was such a hard fall specially with my spine and left ribs against the wall, I immediately gave out a long hard moan, thinking oh no, I maybe broke my back!!!!

    part of the hot food was sprayed around. I will try to be glad it is not worse, and take some painkillers with me on the planes for sure..

    might need some soft pillows in group, ha!!!

    scary though, and stupid but I think it was mostly due to being tired..

    and my device was not broken but going berserk until I switched it off, still sitting there, and doing so I discovered I could still move and cautiously got up.

    I stretched to lessen the coming soreness but it already hurts badly when I move or take a deep breath, so that promises for the upcoming travelling…

    still, the good thing is it feels like no ribs are broken, though it might feel as if they are by tomorrow..



  243. Margaret says:

    thanks for your response, and right, I also hope it won’t happen again, smiley.
    today it still hurts but less than yesterday, apart from some brief stabs when I make a wrong movement..

    it is amazing how it hurts on unexpected spots, hand, elbow, neck, back and ribs, hips, ass most certainly, and knees so I mmust have used all of those to break my fall…

    maybe some of my automatic judo reflexes still saved me from a worse result..

    but I clearly remember that instant of terror something in my back might be badly damaged and the loud and long moaning cry it provoked. none of my neighbours did respond, but some of them probably were not home..

    my poor cat also got a fright, and she already is pretty vigilant because of the suitcase and stuff, poor thing, but I give her a lot of extra attention..

    sorting out, on a slow pace, last number of cloths to take, three heaps, one NO, one Maybe and one YES and then the final selection.

    usually the last spaces in the suitcase get filled up anyway with more stuff but Iwill have to refrain as the weight limits have become more severe for the luggage…

    s much work but the good side is I go through all my cloths and it is clear I have to give away a lot of it when I return home, too much things I never put on..

    sorry for the babbling, could use some of that and a break..

    look forward to hearing how you are and sharing bedtime stories in our bunks..


  244. Margaret says:

    argh! more stress even than the usual travelling stress…

    they just said on the news Brussels Airport plans a strike tomorrow from the air controllers, unless they come to an agreement in a meeting with their bosses tonight…

    I should leave tomorrow morning, and catch another connecting flight in LOndon…

    all the time suffering with the feeling I can barely cope..

    will have to keep listening to the evening news and hope they come to some agreement soon enough..

    can’t even imagine all the hassles if they strike..


  245. Margaret says:

    I am in L.A., but my suitcase is not…

    a drag, all the more because the company refuses to give me a call on my own cellphone, an international number but using the local network, so not much extra charge, but anyway..

    on the other hand they are hard to reach, and would ask for all kind of specifications I can’t read out fast enough..

    then they won’t give any information even to the persons that they accepted as contact persons with a local number here, won’t even tell them when they call whether the bag arrived..

    so a big drag..

    we keep trying and I will, in case of news, or eventually also in case of no news, have to go there myself and maybe miss out on group, the worst drag of all..

    but I am grateful for all the help I got so far from friends and also from a total stranger, which was very helpful in checking the website for lost luggage, just to find out it is still being looked for…

    otherwise I am ok, tired and tense but still alive and ‘kicking’ feel like kicking the walls or something but anyway…


  246. Margaret says:

    waiting to go to the airport with P. to pick someone up and in the meantime go look for my suitcase, just in case…

    thinking of my poor cat so alone and probably not happy and scared, it suddenly triggered me as well, the feeling of being vulnerable and kind of powerless, scared and alone, sort of, anyway, I seem to identify with her and it maede me cry..

    making up a tiny bit for the lost group of tonight…

    f.. suitcase better be there before sunday or else i have a really big problem.

  247. Margaret says:

    still no suitcase.
    went to airport yesterday night to chek but in vain, no news about it.


    only have medication left for a week, and won’t be able to reload my cellphone, not to speak of all the other items, cloths, toilet gear, and I only have the warm pants I travelled in.

    have to call for a compensation, to recheck and to give Santa Barbara adress if necessary, and it is all so complicated as they want me to be on the phone and I can’t read out all the nmbers etc they demand to hear.

    still haen’t had the possibility to go for a local phone either, and have missed group yesterday night.

    feel I am losing out and have no words for the rest of what I feel.