Behind the Scenes part 4

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  1. Thanks so much for all your thoughts and condolences. It means a lot to us. Gretchen

  2. Patrick says:

    Did something happen?

  3. landerer1 says:

    Yes, please what happened? Thank you, Rosie Landerer McCabe

  4. Miguel says:

    Gretchen.

    I do not know how your mother is. If she had passed away my sincere condolences to you, your sister Atty, Barry and all your family.

    Miguel

  5. Miguel says:

    Thanks Margaret and Larry.

    Larry
    Your story sounds familiar and very similar to mine.

    I trust you that you are brave and you’ll have a new oportunity for love or that at least you will try your best to make it happen.

    Miguel

  6. Margaret says:

    [Subscribing for Margaret]

  7. Margaret says:

    Dear Larry,
    you have much more to offer than you might realize.

    buddying with you I discovered this really kind person, with a lot of diferent and surprising qualities, someone who really listens and hears and keeps opening up and allows the person with him to open up as well, with the safety of someone that listens without judging or trying to direct, but really listens and hears, as I mentioned, and that is a rare quality.

    you seem to be moving forward on the right track and I wish you the very best, and hope you also find more people you can relate to on a deeper level.

    just had a nice evening here with my roommate, a new patient, listening to all kinds of music we chose on his iPad, and the music brought back many memories and some tears..

    nice to hear from you, and hope things keep developing positively up there,
    M

  8. So so sorry for you.

  9. (As always, please leave my real name out of this blog) Steak, salad, vampire movie…what a cure for post-group feelings of rage and despair over what was said to me as group was almost over. BB, you killed me in one fell swoop! “Well, you were successful again at saying nothing in group”. Why didn’t you just tell me that Groucho Marx would rather be a member of any club that wanted him in it (as long as Elephant Mann was NOT a member of that club). That would have at least had a bit of humor while you were destroying the good feelings I had gotten while crying about the few months I had with my mom before losing sight of her at 10 months of age. Maybe I needed to be killed again, I have no idea. I am sure you don’t believe me when I tell you when I say I cannot get my mouth open in group. It BARELY happened at the retreat, but that was a whole different dynamic. There is a serious disconnect in my brain that takes place in which I would like to tell the group what I am feeling, but the brain is sending signals that keep that from happening. My brain does not send the proper signals to my mouth when I attempt to do cunnilingus either, but I will definitely look for that instructional website that was mentioned today in group. Anyway, what happened to me in group? BB, you gave me a quick touch on the shoulder, while explaining to everyone how we all needed to be touched. It was a good cue for me, even though I did not have any big feeling pushing up at the moment, but that is pretty normal for me. But it was a good enough cue so that I could go to the private room, listen to my Doors song, and cry about my mom. Cry while seeing the LOST smiling faces of mom, aunts, brother, and Tiny the dog. Cry while seeing images of her upstairs bedroom where she held me and cared for me; seeing the sunlit window that must have caught my eye every day, December through October, most likely some beautiful-sounding California raindrops too. I never do see many of the memories in great detail, possibly due to these memories having been laid down in an undeveloped but rapidly-growing baby brain that got going over 61 years ago. Or maybe I am just skirting the surface of this mega-pain still. Anyway, BC had dropped me off at 2 since she needed the car, so I was listening to the words and music of the (somewhat uncharacteristically upbeat) Doors song and a few other songs, while walking up and down the hilly streets that surround the Institute and staring at the good, bad, and ugly. I was looking at beautiful monstrously-high green hedges, and the gorgeous bright blue cloud-strewn sky (Good). But then I saw a lost dog poster on every street pole (Bad) I hope it is not one of the dogs that live next door to the Institute, although I did hear one of them howling today during group. There is nothing much very ugly in that neighborhood. Maybe the beggar with his sign outside McDonalds, but I fed him and myself, so a little less ugliness for a while.
    “I looked at you, you looked me, I smiled at you, you smiled at me
    And we’re on our way , No we can’t turn back, babe , Yeah, we’re on our way
    And we can’t turn back” –The Doors, maybe Robby Krieger song.
    In your trusty little room, my first crying was about BC coming over to my apartment in 1975. How we did the nasty, and then she somehow stayed over for 38 years. Then my crying went to baby me and mom. I didn’t cry about the bad uncle, just mom and the rest of the household in Monterey Park. Well, there was just the tiniest thing about bad uncle, since I was thrown into his bedroom which DIDN’T have a sunny window, when the Galaxy Police disappeared my mom.
    Anyway, BB, I guess I should be grateful for the attention, but HARSH, buddy! Maybe you want me to scream at you, I don’t know. But you blind-sided me, bushwhacked me, caught me by surprise, I must say. But, as I said above, steak and salad helps sometimes, and if BC and I were not on the outs because my post-retreat pain is triggering HER pain, and if my fucking bosses had not served me up shit all week, I would probably have gotten MORE of that old-time RELIEF (but I DO feel a good-enough sized bit of it, for once).
    PS, not sure what you guys meant by the word you gave me “TRUST”, but after that retreat, I am pretty much trusting my old feelings now, previously it was hard to trust the odd and horrendous happenings that turned my life into SHIT. Also, sitting in group after crying, I was seeing images of my great-grandmother comforting me. I have never seen these memories before, although sometimes you and BC see me rubbing my forehead, and I think this is how she comforted me, maybe in the first few days after losing my mom. Also I was seeing her old German face, and the faces of my mom, grandmother and aunts were merging into each other in this memory; obviously they all looked somewhat alike.
    PPS, another close memory triggered by these lines in the song “We’re on our way, and we can’t turn back” I really felt the essence of being born, being alive, being thrown out of the womb with a roll of the dice (and then bounced around into some strange situations). Talk about a real world philosophical sensing and insight of magical, mystical LIFE! Wow.
    Well, thanks again for having me over. Full moon group—YEAH!!! (As always, please leave my real name out of this blog)

  10. BTW. I first heard of PT when I was in Rota in 1975. It took me 10 years before I finally got to PT. I was hoping to lose my virginity in Rota, and i halfway did, but the lady was rushing me out the door, saying that La Guardia Civil was coming, with his machine gun on his shoulder. So I left interruptus.

  11. Miguel says:

    Elephant Man

    It’s very sad your story. I understand it is difficult for you to speak up in groups. I also happened to me.

    A pleasant surprise when I read you were in Rota when your first heard about Primal Therapy.

    Too bad the Guardia Civil did not let you finish your job. In 1975 many people in this country feared the Civil Guard at the time, were the last days of Franco. I discovered that in Los Angeles police seemed a little bit similar to the Civil Guard (Guarda Civil) of those years. In Los Angeles I think people fear and respect the police at once. It is not quite the same. It is not same ralated to political repression. But that goes back to the Spanish Civil War and that is a very long story.

    In Rota happend to me a curious anecdote. I was walking though a nice path and a nice lady crossed. I begun talking to her in a quite friendy way. She told me that the people in there were very grateful to the Americans and that she had a daughter of about 20 years and feared the psossibility of her falling in love with a Marine, and then go with him to America., but then she said: “Oh children do not belong to us they are free.”. A lovely person. Mothers in this country are very possesive with their children.

    We also have in common another story. You could not finish your work, you could not lose your virginity in Rota.

    It happened something similar to me in London. I do not know when I lost my virginity, but I know that with a certain lady I could not finish the job I was doing at that moment, because being in the bedroom with her, she began saying that her husband (I think they were separating) was coming home ( He was supposed to be working in London at that time). I had to run out and get dressed in a hurry. Just like in the movies. Sometimes reality is stronger than fantasy.

    I am grateful to this lady, she did all the work for me, I just let me be followed by her.,I was so awkward in the art of seduction. Being loved for me without me having to do much about it was something new. I did not what to expect from a woman. Then I understood.

    She taught me what it ment to be loved by a woman. What to expect from a woman. Thank you Lady X, you will always have a place in my heart.

    All this happened about 1978.

    You see elephant man we have things in common.

    Elephant man how is that it took you 10 years to go to Los Angeles for therapy?

    Miguel

  12. Fiona says:

    Gretchen and Atty,
    So sorry to read your news. There is nothing that can be said to make it easier. Thinking of you both. Fiona

  13. Margaret says:

    wooooooow elephant man, that is one fine hell of a comment!!!!
    M.

  14. Anonymous says:

    Still not sure what happened, did Gretchen’s mom died?

  15. skibuff41 says:

    Sorry to hear about your mom’s death, Gretchen. It seems no matter how many mistakes they made; no matter how they hurt, neglected, and abused us, we still mourn when they die. Be well.

    Steve Herron

  16. Daniel says:

    Sorry to hear about your mother, Gretchen

  17. Patrick says:

    I want to express my sympathy with you Gretchen as you did to me. No matter how ‘bad’ I am you never give up on me. As you know my Mom died too recently and just from my own expierience I havn’t found it to be ‘too bad’. I don’t seem to have these kind of typical feelings of being an ‘orphan’ etc. That has to do though mostly that our bond was weak and frayed anyway and though I did get to ‘understand’ her a lot better on her death bed it seems to be thin gruel for a lifetime of mostly misses. Anyway sorry don’t want to make it about myself, just don’t know what else to say. Sorry.

  18. Margaret says:

    Steve,
    nice to meet you here on the blog!
    hope you will hang around, same goes for elephant man and of course my own papa-san from last group..
    M

  19. Hey All, Thank you so much for all your thoughts, comments and condolences on the blog , by email and in person. It has meant a great deal to me . I feel very lucky to have so many kind and sensitive people in my life, I really do. I appreciate all of your thoughts and your ability to reach out at just the right time! Gretchen

    • Phil says:

      Gretchen, I’m very sorry about your mother. A little late seeing this. I hope you are doing OK. Phil

      WordPress.com

      primalinstitute commented: “Hey All, Thank you so much for all your thoughts, comments and condolences on the blog , by email and in person. It has meant a great deal to me . I feel very lucky to have so many kind and sensitive people in my life, I really do. I appreciate all of you”

  20. Margaret says:

    back to Belgium tomorrow.
    luckily I heard the weather is really summery there, and I look forward very much to seeing my cat, or did I already mention that smiley?

    had a nice goodbye sesssion today, and after getting ‘home’ here after a nice lunch with my roommate, all of a sudden missed my dad, and not being able to go back home to see him.

    as a child I craved more affection and attention from him, but as an adult I could see better how he was also very stable and reliable, and showed affection in his own ways.

    I do miss him.
    M.

    • skibuff41 says:

      You never cease to amaze me, Margaret. Many people with perfect sight would find it daunting to travel thousands of miles to a country where the dominant language is not theirs. But you seem to take it all in stride. I could not do what you do. Be well, stay safe, and hope to see you next year.

      Steve Herron

    • vicki says:

      Have a good trip, Margaret — with hopefully no luggage snafus! See you next time!

  21. Margaret says:

    will fly back tonight, feel a mixture of sadness and pleasure specially thinking of seeing my cat again..

    just gave my mom a call and she was very nice cheerful and supportive.

    yesterday felt I miss my dad..

    this morning got another scare when I got a mail a dear friend who was going to take me to the airport is ill.
    that is already worrisome but also meant I have to find another solution short term to get there.

    luckily my roommate L. was still around, about to leave, and immediately volunteered to accompany me to the airport with the taxi and to hang around there with me until I was about to leave.

    his presence here is like a gift from heaven, smiley..

    have to go on with more packing before it gets too hot, hope my suitcase will follow me this time, but will stuff even more items into my hand luggage just to be on the safe side..

    it has been a difficult stay at times, but all the warmth and help I recieved from many people still makes me want to come back..

    M.

  22. Margaret says:

    hi Steve,
    thank you.

    I got your invitation for Linked-in but am not a real member there anymore, have never really done anything with my inscription there.

    it is so nice to be able to talk to you as well here on the blog, it is such a great way to stay in touch with a number of people witout having to write many different e-mails.

    congratulations again with your degree, Barry described me the picture of you that hangs in the group room.

    you are a great example for me to keep on making the effort on moments it seems almost pointless. so far luckily I haven’t had moments like that but I feel pretty sure they will come when I run in to practical problems and uninteresting classes.
    hope you stick around here, you have a smart mind and a very direct way of expressing yourself which I like.

    now will put the laptop in its travelbag so am gone for a while.

    see you guys later, Margaret

  23. Margaret says:

    thanks Vicky,
    promise to keep your bunk if I am there first!

    all packed but unpacked laptop again to pass the time..

    M.

  24. Margaret says:

    arrived home safe and sound, with suitcase this time..

    my cat was soooo happy to see me, can’t get enough of me still, keeps rubbbing her smell on me and vice versa, folllowing me everywhere and making little sounds to keep contact and showed her pleasure in several other ways.
    she lost some weight but since I am back has been munching all the time so will quickly make up, haha!

    my brother picked me up at the airport, and at some point on the ride home asked me what exactly I did every time over there in L.A. at the Institute.

    I told him still some therapy but also by now seeing old and new friends, as I had already processed a lot, and told him it was also nice to be able to help other people.
    I told him there are group and private sessions, and that we talk about what is difficult in our lifes, which is for everyone a very individual story.

    I told him in my case it had been mostly about my dad, who had worked hard for us but had been distant, and my halfbrother made an affirmative sound. not his dad by the way but raised him and was even more distant to him..

    then I mentioned our mother, said she is sweet but also a child in many ways, and again my brother made an affirmative sound.

    then I mentioned how also my disability comes up for me, as being in another city and not necessarily always having help at hand is confrontational, but I always feel I come back stronger.

    I started saying that facing these things and, that it felt helpful to.. and while I was still looking for my words,my brother ended my sentence ‘..express it’.

    that was very nice, he seemed to understand and for the very first tie showed genuine interest without any note of disappproval, on the contrary.

    that was very very nice.

    then we even talked about how it helped me to become stronger in my life back here, giving me more strength to go out to dance for example, and to meet more people and maybe some day a new partner in life.

    we talked about dating sites and he told me he had actually been searching for me if there were sites for disabled people.

    it was late so I only gave our mom a call from the car and he took me home, and gave me some fresh food he had bought for me to get going, and said hi to my cat who was so happy she even came up to him for a cuddle..

    this was a nice homecoming, illustrates how me and my brother have really come closer very much over the last years.

    love him very much.
    M. and cat!

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I think I will write down and memorize your answer about what you are doing in LA. Primal therapy is still like some kind of ‘taboo’ subject around here, even in my own mind it is somehow, I could never seem to establish it as something even borderline ‘legitimate’ the sense of shame and defeat were always too big. So even though I ‘believed’ in it and everyone could see by my actions that I did…………….STILL it feels I dunno ‘underground’ or something. In a few weeks I am hoping to see some people I knew in College who knew I was into PT and one is now a High Court judge another is a University Lecturer, another head of an NGO and I’m thinking how do I ‘explain’ what I have been up to all these years……………..still even with them does not feel easy. I think a lot of it comes from my sense of myself being so minimized and what I wanted not being important, what was important was the overall agenda which was keep your nose clean, get a good degree, marry and have children and anything else I should not bother about. That’s why also I wish PT had more a sense of ‘legitimacy’ in the world at large……………..but it doesn’t so that’s ‘reality’. I can’t get ‘support’ from there it is up to me myself and I………………..what a strange notion………………

  25. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    one other thing I said to my brother was I did not ‘need’ to go as in not being able to do without, but that I wanted to keep going back as I could sense it always kept making me stronger.

    I think you underestimate the value and name primal therapy has, even while it might not be in the mainline psychology textbooks.

    I would like to read what Steve Jobbs for example had to say about it.

    and I think other and more scientifically orientated specialists in the medical field have also great interest in its findings, but if it is still all developing those things are hard to know.

    I have just read a book about a Belgian female therapist who started a treatment centre for children, and I assure you her ideas and ways in which she works are very primally orientated.

    the ideas have really conquered a lot of territory.

    but I htink you are right there is more there for you, a shame that has more to do with your own personal history than with whether primal therapy is a widely recognised therapy or not.

    after all it is a therapy that is officially recognised by US medical security systems which is already a fine proof of its legitimacy I would say in itself.

    keep searching for what there is there for you, as I also still feel you have held back for some reason in your own therapy so far.

    you are already very able to explore your feelings on your own or by writing etc., but there is much more that can only be discovered in groups and session,, I still find out for myself, as these settings confront me more with those hidden painful truths we automatically avoid in our life.

    specially on this stay I have had some stuff I had to deal with I had expected to have lefgt behind and that could only have come up in a group setting.

    unsettling at first, very difficult too, but therefor all the more useful on hindsight.

    M

  26. Patrick says:

    Thanks Margaret – yes ‘primal’ for me………..well it reminds me of something I read in a book how ‘therapy’ could be likened to using dental floss on your teeth, it’s just sometimes the dental floss itself gets stuck in the teeth and then THAT is a problem. Kind of a ‘meta’ problem if you know what I mean.

    But your’e right it represents a lot for me and to me and about me. That is one reason I feel this blog has been so helpful to me, it was a better and more constuctive way to ‘complain’ than in any groups or sessions. But it a BIG topic that’s all I feel up to day and I know if I say very much I will fall into some category of ‘crooked thinking’ lol!!. Speaking of that where has my fellow ‘crooked thinker’ Guru gone to. Hopefully not to ‘crooked thinking heaven’ where I’ve heard things are very HOT!!. Hope you are ok Guru maybe you have hit the jackpot (lol) and no longer need us………………

    • Patrick says:

      Shows what a ‘crooked thinker’ I am I can’t even distinguish Heaven from Hell. Hell is where it is HOT. “So you think you can tell/Heaven from Hell/blue skies from pain/you think you can tell”

      So Guru I hope you are not in ‘crooked thinker Hell’ …………..that might be quite bad.

  27. Margaret says:

    am checking the blog in the middle of the night, nothing, no new other mails either, loneliness strikes again sort of..

    shit.

    M

  28. Patrick says:

    Living in Ireland it is quite noticeable how there is more sympathy and coverage of the Palestinian’s plight under the Israeli assault on Gaza. More certainly than in the US and also the UK. Two days ago after the killing of the 4 Palestinian boys playing soccer on the beach the front page of the Irish Times was the father of the boys looking totally anguished and he holding one of his other sons in his arms – that boy’s eyes full of tears. It struck me you would not easily see that in the NY Times or ANYWHERE in the US.

    Also there has been several demonstations here on behalf of the Palestinians even attended by members of Parliment. I don’t want to make too much of it but instincivly the Irish with no explanations needed empathize with the Palestinians. They KNOW so well the history they had themselves the disrespect in their own land by outside colonialists, the hypocricy and the justifications. On a sort of related topic I find the English newspapers and coverage of the downed plane in Ukraine scary, headlines like “Putin’s Missile” and several others in that vein quite scary. I get the feeling we are being prepared for a war, I honestly think Russia is the next ‘prize’ for the US/UK/Israeli axis. If Putin is not careful he will end up like Gaddafi butchered in a ditch and his country gone.

    Still with the wonders of the internet here is a little something actually made in the USA “Democracy Now” not at all typical but at least SOMEONE is talking………………..

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/glenn_greenwald_why_did_nbc_pull?autostart=true

  29. Larry says:

    Whenever I am lonely and check the blog, you are always there Margaret. 🙂

    I and my summer students have been putting in lots of extra time at work, and the heavy workload continues since my return from the retreat. This past Friday a student and I worked until 10 pm. On Wednesday 5 of us worked 17 hours straight until 12:30 in the morning. It is a good thing I like my job and the people I work with, but putting so much time and energy into work cuts way too much into my private life, and I don’t have the strength and stamina I had when I was younger, so more and more I contemplate retirement.

    I wrote last time about L. Last Monday I was afraid of how I would interact with her when I went to the bereavement group. At the meeting she seemed unsure and afraid too of interaction with me. It felt like we were wanting each others’ attention but were keeping a safe distance, hidden behind walls that deterred spontaneity and connection with one another. When she talked during the meeting it became apparent that she was wrestling with grief feelings bubbling up and she felt embarrassed over her need to cry. I was doubting myself and my impression of who she is and what I want from her. We were hurting and avoided the connection we often have with each other at the end of the meeting. Subsequently all week I wrestled with phoning her, and didn’t phone.

    This morning I saw the following article about a father who saved his son but couldn’t save his own lilfe. It touched a feeling in me.

    http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2014/07/20140714-191540.html

    I cried about the love and caring of that father for his son, that I never got and I felt I didn’t deserve, but I’m beginning to feel how I needed it and it should have come automatically. I cry that it is so difficult for me to even let in and enjoy the attention of friends on my birthday. I cry about the love between Noreen and I that was a remarkable and important turn that made my life. I cry out I love her, and scream for her, then accept more that she is gone, and let myself feel more of the vacuum left upon her death.

    Here I am, back in the prairies I grew up in, without love again, where life feels heavy, and to make life better I have to fight against all my insecurities and loneliness. I wonder what is there for me here, why am I back here, and appreciate more deeply how much life Noreen gave me. It’s an injustice that I have to fight to make my life be more than empty grey, and I have to fight against the feelings that I don’t deserve more.

    As a child I could never imagine my father saving my life at a risk to his. I could never imagine him wanting to hold me. I don’t feel he cared much. I never felt I deserved more anyway, so I can’t blame him. And yet friends at the retreat gave me all that attention on my birthday. And L. sees something in me. I feel you fail to see there is nothing there.

    I guess I fail to see that maybe there is.

  30. Larry says:

    30+ years back in time in LA, as Noreen and I found each other and reached for the courage to let each other in, our two orbits gradually merged into one. It was a scary, wonderful, magical time the likes of which neither of us had known before. But as always, there was ancient pain that made us stumble.

    I specifically remember sitting beside her one afternoon, my arm around her, talking with her so openly and honestly, feeling so lucky to be with her, then out of nowhere falling backwards writhing and moaning in painful dark empty void, so deep that I wanted her to leave me forever before she got caught in my tentacles pulling her into my lonely dark pit. In that writhing moment I strongly felt I would be bad for her, that she would not have the strength to not get trapped in my deep black bottomless need, and that for her future happiness she should leave me now. When I arose from the feeling I told her what it was about and that I worried about the future it foretold. After a pause I then told her that all I knew for sure was that right now I wanted her and wanted to be with her and felt like it could be for always.

    Soon after we arrived on the prairies, she didn’t want to live here. I couldn’t leave here. I couldn’t live here without her, and I couldn’t leave here with her for her.

    Several times we holidayed on the west coast, along the ocean where she felt most at home. I contemplated us moving there and my trying to find a job, but I never could make it happen. After some years of trying and me not budging, she said she would leave me. It would have broken me and my life.

    But she stayed with me on the prairies, made the best of it against her great need to leave, and we made a meaningful, fulfilling and mostly happy life, of a kind I couldn’t have had without her. I determined that I would try to retire to the west coast with her.

    She told me she wanted her ashes spread on the ocean, so that’s where they are, on the west coast beach where we holidayed together.

    I wish I could still hold you Noreen, but I release you. You are free now. I’m forever grateful I met you.

  31. Margaret says:

    Elephant Man,
    I think it is the special sad circumstances these weeks that are at the cause of you not having recieved a reply to your great comment of last week.

    hope you keep on writing here like this, or just write in any which way, nice to have you here!

    Larry, hope L. gives you more openness and clarity soon, why did you not phone her?

    I have never been good at assessing whether it is best to contact or leave alone someone but on the other hand I remember a few times this last year where I was really very glad I did..

    good luck and go for it whenever you feel any impulse to do so I would say, you deserve it.

    M.

    • Larry says:

      Hi Margaret. It seems that episodes of L. and I opening toward each other are followed by attacks of grief in each other. I feel myself opening to more grief after I risk opening my feelings to her a little more. I cried off and on all day yesterday about losing Noreen. I cried and remembered all that was wonderful about Noreen and her being in my life, and cried still wanting it but now deeply sadly letting go and accepting that time with her is over and past. It is taking many many bouts of my crying the loss a little deeper each time, because I’ve been so shut down most of my life before her because I had so little emotional connection before her, I sense eruptions of grief are happening now with L, judging by what she talks about in bereavement group, although I wonder whether she grasps the connection that opening to feelings for someone in the present would open the tap more to yet unresolved grief. If she has feelings for me that stir grief for her deceased husband, she’ll block me out to block out her grief. I’d rather talk to her in person and see where she is at rather than talk to her on the phone and not have as good a sense of where she is.

      In the past I’ve phoned L. about 4 or 5 times. The last few times I felt I was intruding, that my call wasn’t welcome. She has never phoned me. I feel the message is for me to keep my distance. I feel very hesitant to phone her any more.

      When I see her in person and we talk, she stirs compelling feelings in me. She stirred me right from the beginning, more and more so over time. Those feelings also open me to grief, but just before the feelings break out, my need drives me to want to connect with her more to ease my pain, and when I’m in that needy place I don’t trust the reasons driving me to connect with her. I’d rather phone her when I am interested in her, when I care about her, when I want to know her better. I’d rather not phone her when I need her to make me feel better, when I’m driven by emptiness and need. It’s better instead that I cry and feel my need and loss, which I’ve been doing yesterday.

      My need is driving me to imagine already a life with L as my soul mate, something like Noreen was. But L is a lot different than me. For one thing she is much younger. For another she seems unable to be alone. I’m alone a lot and wish I had more friends. She spends a lot of time with family and friends, often to her irritation at not having time to herself. She likes to play pool. I don’t. She and her husband played pool a lot together with friends. I wouldn’t want to. She likes to go to car races. She has a family member who races. I’m bored by car racing. She is fascinated by muscle cars. I appreciate them, but they are pretty low on my interest barometer. I think she likes country music. I don’t. So now and then reality smacks me up the side of the head and clears the notion she might be a soul mate, and I cry and feel my emptiness that fuels my need for her to be one, and I accept my aloneness a little more. After that I feel in a better place to risk getting to know her, out of interest and able to let things go where they will between us rather hoping right off the bat she’ll be a soul mate. I feel the sound of too much need in my voice will scare her off.

      Finally, in the bereavement group we try to create an atmosphere of support and trust. I feel many there open to me and trust me. It creates a healthy healing atmosphere for me and them. Maybe all I am to L is someone who she can trust and talk to. I don’t want to ruin that. For now I want to be sure of my feelings for her, and I want my dealings with her to be in person where I can get a sense of where she is at and who she is, until I become less afraid of what seems to be growing between us. When my impulse feels very right, I go for it, but whenever I have doubts, going for it usually turns out being awkward.

      Maybe her own need in grief is confusing her feelings for me. So long as we both take the time to cry through our feelings of grief, we may over time in a clear headed way we can at least become friends. Maybe eventually more. In the meantime, I’m keeping myself open to also meeting other women.

  32. Miguel says:

    Steve,

    I’m glad to hear news from though the blog, It seems you are doing right.

    Miguel

  33. Miguel says:

    From now on I can not participate in the blog as much as I would like. And for me this blog is like an umbilical cord that binds me to you and the primal community. But I want to be in touch and hope to go to Santa Barbara next retreat.

    I have gathered enough courage. I have decided to be be self-employed.

    I rented a small, but nice office in one of the best places in town.

    I have decided to make my dreams come true. For a long time I wanted to be a psychologist, psychotherapist but could not for one reason or another. But now I want to implement my titles of Psychologist (five years), University Expert in Dynamic Psychotherapy and a Master in Family Therapy and Systems.

    I am working hard to put my office and all papers processed to record my practice as a medical and psychotherapeutic center so we can help my clients also using my experience of Primal Therapy for many years.

    At the beginning of this therapy could only understand it with my mind, to my knowledge, but now that I understand it my feelings, and with my heart , it never ceases to amaze me every day.

    My ex-girlfriend with whom I maintain a good relationship now and I talk occasionally with her, tells me that thanks to me and Primal Therapy she was able to tell her mother before she died: “Mom I love you”. A quite simple sentence but that she could not say before. That was a great relief to her. After three years that the relationship is finished, she says she still cries occasionally by situations that reminds her of her childhood.
    When being together with her I helped her with therapy and Imago therapy ( a therapy for couples similar to Primal Therapy) , but the results were scarse because she was not very much convinced of it and did not put much attention.

    Miguel

    • Larry says:

      Congratulations and best wishes in making your dreams reality,Miquel. I’ve never met you in person, but I’ve noticed over your years on the blog the change in you from all thinking to more feeling. I have the impression you will be helpful to people.

  34. irena says:

    Last week we went to an ‘Assisted Dying’ Bill demonstration at the House of Parliament, to reinforce the message to members of the House of Lords, that the law needs to be changed.
    I am campaigning for greater choice, control and access to services at the end of life. Providing terminally ill adults with the option of an assisted death, within strict legal safeguards, and for universal access to high quality end-of-life care.
    This is because of my personal experience some years back.
    What brought up the feeling again was demonstrating next to the very vocal opposition, many young people there who all were chanting ‘we shall overcome’ and told us that Jesus was suffering also and then had risen. So will the terminally ill people after their long (and utterly pointless) suffering.
    Needless to say I got and get deeply angry at such ways of thinking. It brings up feelings I have not dealt with, probably because it was all too much at the time. During the long day, I started expressing to my friend some of those feelings and decided to write on the blog to look at them in some detail (again).
    My mother was placed into an end-of-life-home back in Switzerland after her cancer had spread, now inoperable. It was a case of her dying slowly. She had written and signed a piece of paper, that if she’d ever be in this situation she’d would not want to have a slow death but preferred assisted dying. I didn’t know at the time that was only available in certain places. I thought that piece of paper was enough to have some nurse give her a cocktail to release her of her ongoing agony. But they didn’t want to hear about this where she was.
    My son was still young then and I had to leave him back with his dad looking after him. But also during the same time, we had just moved Countries; our marriage had come to an end. My husband then had moved in with his new partner, which meant our boy stayed with them. I felt horrified by that, because of the change and the fact that he didn’t knew the new woman very well. He also had to deal with the fact that his granny was dying.
    I had no money for the trip so I had to pawn my jewellery, which made matters worse. Then I stayed two weeks with my mum. In the home during the day, her apartment at night, cleaning, sorting goods and selling them. All the while I was thinking that my boy is far away maybe missing me, needing me, and I was not there for him. After two weeks I’d fly back home to stay for two weeks, thinking, what if mum dies now, all alone, with nobody there. I felt guilty 24/7. I kept going back to sit by her bed, holding her hand and thinking of my child. Two weeks here, two weeks there. And repeating this over some time.
    (My son presently, just left for a difficult ‘task’ far away and guess what I felt).
    When I was with my mother, watching her deteriorate, being eaten alive by the cancer, I had to turn every now and then, to look over my shoulder, checking if the hollow, black figure with the scythe, sitting in the corner, sneering a toothless grin, finally gets up and takes her. I looked at her, unrecognizable, thinking: DIE!! Just DIE! Go!! Why are you still here? What are you waiting for?? Why hang around? Gogogogogo!!!
    For days she was so, so thirsty, begging me for water, only to throw it back up again soaking everything. It had nowhere to go anymore, but into her shirt, her pillow, her mattress. She was begging me to give her a mix of pills to kill her. Please, it’s such agony, do that ONE thing for me. I had to tell her that there is still a little boy who needs his mother. Not in prison but by his side. Has this now become a matter of her or him?! I had to tell her it’s going to be him. No-brainer. She agreed, but her eyes still look at me today. I don’t want to have to make such ‘choices’ ever again. There can be a solution for both parties.
    Back home again for two weeks. Smile. Think of mum being alone. No other visitors. So alone. Need to go back, should be at her side. Mami….
    Then the phone call came. She passed. I wasn’t there.
    I failed her. I am so, so sorry, Mami, I wasn’t there to hold your hand while you had to go down the dark, dark road into the unknown.
    Let me kiss your sunken eyes, put my cheek against your bony face and cry a bit.

    • Patrick says:

      Irena – not to take away from your feeling or anything but I kind of went through something like this. My Mom died on a Monday morning and I was on our way to see her as I did everyday. We got a call on the way that she had died. So I wasn’t there when she actually passed away and I thought about that a bit. My sister was quite upset that she wasn’t actually there and I heard her cry a few times in the days after about not being there.

      I got there maybe a half hour after she died but for myself I didn’t feel that I ‘missed’ something so big or anything. Also when a person is so close to death it’s even difficult to pin point exactly the moment………………I was just glad I had spent a few weeks really getting to ‘know’ her as strange as that may sound so I didn’t really feel bad about not being actually there when she died. It sounds like you did everything possible that you could do and spent quite a bit of time with her. It probably does sound like I am trying to take away your feeling so I will shut up now. But I don’t think you failed her it seems like you did everything possible……………..

    • Larry says:

      Hi Irena. I remember years ago talking with you about the episode in your life that you write about. Some time after those talks, I lost my Noreen. From the perspective of my loss, I’d like to share with you my impressions upon reading your post.

      I don’t feel that you failed your mum. Life is not perfect and we can rarely perfectly be there for a loved one. You were there for her as best you could be, and I suspect that meant a world of comfort to her. Because of you, she was not all alone, even if you weren’t present when she died. Books about the dying experience say that it in many instances it seems our loved ones intentionally choose the moment of death for when we leave the room or aren’t there, to be able to let go and to spare us the trauma of their passing.

      Your mother may have chosen the time of your absence to be the time to die. I was with Noreen constantly for the three days she was unconscious before her death, administering pain medication subcutaneously when she seemed to need it. The way her breathing was so shallow and irregular, it had seemed to me that most of her brain must have been shut down and dying and she must have been gone already, and it must have been only her primitive reptilian brain stem still alive robotically functioning and sending messages to her heart and lungs to automatically keep them going. On the third day my brother and sister arrived to be with me when Noreen died. My sister-in-law is a retired nurse, and had been at many a dying person’s bedside. They brought their little dog with them. My brother needed to take it for a walk and invited me to join him. I did. I hadn’t been out of the condo and away from Noreen for three days. My brother and I and the dog walked for 1/2 hour. When we left, my sister-in-law sat at Noreen’s bedside and said to her, “It’s OK Noreen, We’re here for Larry. You can go now.”, and with that Noreen breathed her last. She was gone when I returned from the walk. I’m open to the possibility that she chose then to die, when I was away.

      I understand the horrible helplessness, in having to choose between being there for your son, or being there for your mother and for her sake perhaps illegally hastening her death. When Noreen was first diagnosed with cancer, she asked me whether I would help her end her life before the cancer pain became unbearable as she feared it would. I was horrified to contemplate that we might reach the stage where I’d be confronted with the horrendous choice to actively end her life to end her suffering, and that probably I’d have go to prison for it, I felt that if I didn’t have the courage to help her it would haunt me for the rest of my life. Fortunately we never came to that place. Noreen died at home under palliative care. She had access to drugs that kept the pain mostly relatively under control. It was a most difficult time for both of us, but at least I had the peace of knowing she was relatively comfortable.

      The real crime, Irena, is that the end-of-life home in Switzerland by the sounds of it didn’t actively help to relieve your mother’s agony. The crime is that you were left in an impossible situation with no one to help you that I can see. The heartwarming side of the distressing episode is how you did you best to help your loved ones. I think Yes, feel what you need to and cry what you need to about not being able to be there perfectly for both of them, but I hope you can also feel good about your efforts to be there for both of them even if flawed due to circumstances beyond your ability to control in an imperfect world.

      I think it is good that these feelings are coming up for you, even after all this time. Just this weekend, 5 years after her death, I’ve still been crying regret that I couldn’t move my life to the sea coast for Noreen, and more and more I understand how we are imperfect and not all powerful. It matters that we cry and feel regret for not being perfectly there for a loved one. It also matters that we cry and feel the good and love that was there, and perhaps sadness for not being able to have more time and make everything OK. I think cry for you mother if you need to, and for your son who maybe sometime didn’t have you when he needed you, and for you who couldn’t be all powerful and perfect in a very distressing time.

  35. Miguel says:

    A sad and tragic choice you had to do betwen your child and your dying mother. It is like the situation was splitting you in half Irena.

    I think you did your best in that situation.

    But your feelings toward your mother Irena are there, it is good to express them because I think they are very intense.

    The reason why you’re fighting looks to me very noble. Everybody should have the right to die with dignity, and respect their personal decisions and not suffer more than normal in these cases.

    Of course, if someone beliefs say that we have come here to suffer and this life is valley of tears then …

    But belief is a personal thing I think if a person or a group of persons thinks so,then that the consequences of their belifs will affect them and only them, not others.

    One has to be responsible of ones convictions and not to impose them on others.

    I understand you Irena.

    Miguel

  36. irena says:

    Thank you, Miguel,
    very kind.

  37. Margaret says:

    Miguel,
    congratulations with that major step in your life, and I wish you success and satisfaction in your job!

    Irena,
    your story sounds so painful..

    I completely back up your fight for the right to die in a dignified way on a moment of one’s own choice.

    we now caught up more or less with the Netherlands with our laws on euthanasia, even for children under certain conditions of hopeeless suffering.

    I have seen some very mving documentaries about people choosing a serene death in the middle of their beloved ones.

    actually my former neighbor
    r was one of them, he had severe ALS and organized a goodbye to all his friends and then a final goodbye with his closest friends and relatives, and there was also a very touching documentary made of him and that process as he was a famous actor here.

    I have talked to y mother and her doctor about the option if ever it would be needed and he agreed to give assistance if it would be the best option at one point..

    I know from my own personal experience how soothing the knowledge of that option being within reach can be, and how jusst knowing it exists and people are there to support you if you’d want them to, can be a major nd decisive step to finding more safety and security and therefor courage to go on living, without that huge fear and concern of what ordeal might still be waiting.

    to know there is the option of taking control, of being able to decide on some of the circustances and to make the best of them, even to turn them into a moment of closeness and even beauty, is so very important and valuable.

    m.

  38. irena says:

    Thanks Margaret
    I don’t think that law will pass here in the UK but it is certainly been looked at more closely than ever. For the first time ever it moved forward to a second reading at the Parliament.

  39. Patrick says:

    At Mass today the priest happened to talk about the Irish Famine something I am often stuck by how LITTLE it is talked about. Anyway the area where we live the Dingle Peninsula now has 10,000 people living there, the priest said at the time of the Famine it was 40,000 people. I was surprised it was that many but it makes sense actually. The population of Ireland basically halfed from 8 to 4 million during those years.What I found more surprising is there was a ‘work home’ there at that time that had 6,000 ‘inmates’ people too poor and desperate and could not feed themselves. He said the ‘work home’ was modelled on American prisons!

    There will be an open air Mass at the graveyard that adjoned the work home next Friday and I plan to go and find out more. The graveyard was basically a mass grave for poor and desperate people. I sometimes think the Famine must have caused so much trauma in so many different ways and the legacy of that has been passed down. After all it happened around 1848 almost within living memory of my grandfather. As I say I am often struck by how little it is spoken about and it just occurs to me now that my interest in politics is somehow related to issues like this. I feel often there is some kind of ‘big picture’ causing or underlying a lot of the individual cases of grief or trauma and I find it helpful to ‘understand’ even if that does not take away the hurt.

    • Larry says:

      Did the famine happen in one year, or over several, Patrick?

      • Patrick says:

        Larry – from what we were told about ‘history’ it was from 1845-1848. I’m not sure in what way it ‘stopped’ then but basically 3 or 4 years. I read a book about it recently and apparantly more food was exported from the country during those years that could have fed all the people. But the British already had this whole ‘free market economics’ ideology going on so it was verboten to ‘interfere’ in the economy. So if people were dying that was economics at work!!

        One effect it had I think was to make people less sociable. Like the native Irish were famous for their hospitality to strangers and travellers etc but that changed and it become more of a world of ‘every man for himself’ and it really damaged the social fabric of the country. I imagine a lot of the extreme taboo about sex etc may also have to do with the Famine, the LAST thing needed at a time like that was more babies…….

        • Larry says:

          I imagine that a prolonged collapse of any society’s ability to provide for itself in a healthy way physically and spiritually, without helpful intervention would cause it’s members to become scarred or ‘crazy’. If what you read is true, it’s unconscionable that profits were made by exporting food while the locals starved. I can see it happening again in our free market system.

          • Daniel says:

            It does happen again, especially in Africa where the world bank sometimes forces countries into highly capitalistic programs in exchange for loans. They want to help modernizing the economy but many times it causes severe shocks that leave many destroyed.

            For example, this is happening right now in Ghana with tomatoes – a very popular vegetable there – where the market is flooded with cheap, heavily subsidized Italian canned tomatoes that the local farmers cannot compete with. The world trade organizations put tremendous pressure on Ghana not to help those farmers with a subsidy of their own. This has happened many times over in the past 30 years in various developing counties around the world.

  40. irena says:

    Thanks Patrick
    and Larry:
    your very last words hit the nail on the head.

  41. Margaret says:

    Larry,
    you make a lot of sense in all what you say.
    M

    • Larry says:

      Gosh Margaret, I wish I didn’t make sense. If I do that means my intuition must be right that for me there is no easy row to hoe but to slog through my anxieties and insecurities toward making a better life for me, because it’s not going to get better any other way.

  42. Daniel says:

    Patrick and Gretchen’s moms passing, and Irena’s post about her own mother’s death, made me think about mourning customs. In my own Jewish case we have what is called a Shiva (literally “Seven”) which is a week of mourning. Only after experiencing it first hand after my parents’ death did I come to truly appreciate it.

    There is usually a short ceremony before burial, and then after the burial the family sits for seven days, usually but not always at the home of the deceased. For seven days people come to console the grieving family. There are many conversations, many memories being brought up, picture albums are scanned again and again, you hear many stories about the person you’re grieving that you’ve never heard before, there’s some laughter. And people never stop nibbling on one refreshment or another.

    The main thing is that for a full week you’re hardly left alone. When this is over we visit the grave again, and then return to our lives. (Stricter people don’t shave for a month and won’t wear fancy cloths or put on makeup, and for a full year will not attend parties).

    The important thing that I discovered about the Shiva was that it structures the mourning and helps you to go along with it.

    What is it like for Christians? I always thought that after the burial the family is alone but I’m not really sure.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – in my case (Irish Catholic) we don’t have anything so formal though it actually works quite like what you describe. Like I have this very good esp I think in my own case as I had been ‘gone’ for so long. I have been picking up bits and pieces and also a lot of ‘insight’ into the family dynamics. I find I get nuggers of information often from quite surprising sources. And actually it is still kind of going on, next Sunday is a Mass for my Mom in the local church (2 months after death) and all the family are coming AGAIN for that. Don’t want to say I ‘look forward’ to it but I suppose I do. The thing I find the most helpful (healing) is just the knowledge I am just one of them, it’s not ONLY me, to fit into a big chain even if painful at times well I feel more part of life not outside of life looking in……

  43. Patrick says:

    this is a gem I heard on the radio this morning. A beautiful love song ‘may you never/lay your head/without a hand to hold/may you never make your bed/out in the cold’

  44. Patrick says:

    Hamas, the Israelis tell us, is cowardly and cynical. (see list from today Guardian)

    They hid at the El-Wafa hospital.

    They hid at the Al-Aqsa hospital.

    They hid at the beach, where children played football.

    They hid at the yard of 75-year-old Muhammad Hamad.

    They hid among the residential quarters of Shujaya.

    They hid in the neighbourhoods of Zaytoun and Toffah.

    They hid in Rafah and Khan Younis.

    They hid in the home of the Qassan family.

    They hid in the home of the poet, Othman Hussein.

    They hid in the village of Khuzaa.

    They hid in the thousands of houses damaged or destroyed.

    They hid in 84 schools and 23 medical facilities.

    They hid in a cafe, where Gazans were watching the World Cup.

    They hid in the ambulances trying to retrieve the injured.

    They hid themselves in 24 corpses, buried under rubble.

    They hid themselves in a young woman in pink household slippers, sprawled on the pavement, taken down while fleeing.

    They hid themselves in two brothers, eight and four, lying in the intensive burn care unit in Al-Shifa.

    They hid themselves in the little boy whose parts were carried away by his father in a plastic shopping bag.

    They hid themselves in the “incomparable chaos of bodies” arriving at Gaza hospitals.

    They hid themselves in an elderly woman, lying in a pool of blood on a stone floor.

  45. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    I was already trying to form myself a mental image o of what goes on there, and your comment gave me some vivid and horrible pictures..

    once read a book about the situation there, explaining the only option that has any chance of working, would be forming a joint government, Israeli and Palestinians, but sadly enough I don’t see it happening in a near future..

    I would like to know how much opposition there is in Israel itself, this violence is indeed completely out of line in my opinion.

    very sad, and deteriorating I am afraid..

    M

    • skibuff41 says:

      Everyone seems to be forgetting that Hamas has written in its charter the goal of wiping Israel off the face of the map, and killing as many Jews as possible. What should the Israelis do in the face of such blatant aggression — say “please?”

      • Jack W says:

        Skibuff41: Many years ago I learned in the EST (Erhard Seminar Training) that it is all effect, effect, effect. I once attempted, on a call in show, that both Israelis and Palestinians are both sub-sets of the Semite races. It’s akin to the Roman Catholic Protestant division within Christianity. In the Muslim world it’s the Shiite and Sunni division. Here we could state that it one Semite group, against another.

        I once; at a retreat when, I think it was Vivian, going on about Judaism, butted in by saying “Stop being Jewish; start being human … Stop being British; start being human” The room went silent for a second or two then a different subject was then continued. It is my feeling that between the British (having Palestine as a protectorate) and the American’s, after World War II; decided that Jews should have a homeland with land taken from the then Palestine…. even though it was Nazi Germany that created the death camps (holocaust) of Jews mainly, Gays and Gypsies. It would seem the German’s got away with merely getting the country being temporarily divided by American, British, French and Russian, sections … until l all that evaporated.

        I contend (maybe wrongly) that if we could all just get back to our human-ness and stop all the one group against another, there might be some REAL PEACE … least-ways amongst us humans. Like so many other things I don’t see it ever happening … que lastima …and it is my contention we humans will destroy ourselves and maybe the rest of all life on the planet … and it could be sooner than we think.

        It’s not a case of picking one or two isolated factors like ‘global warming’, ‘over population’ et al, for it’s all of ONE piece. That, for me was made clear, when ‘Neurosis’ got finally defined … between 1967 and 1970. However, I feel the TOTAL implications got bogged down in differing opinions about how to conduct therapy.

        It’s not that Primal Therapy failed … it’s just that some failed to do Primal therapy. As far as I know, the therapeutic practice is for ever being improved and updated … in both houses.

        Jack

        • skibuff41 says:

          You are correct, Jack W! We need to get back to our “humanity.” Unfortunately, that cannot be done unilaterally. If the Israelis drop their weapons and attempt with words to get Hamas to do the same, the Israelis will suffer the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazis in WWII. They will once again be exterminated — wholesale. And so the mantra of the IDF is “Never Again!” — and rightfully so.

          The Palestinians have only themselves to blame for the very existence of the State of Israel. Decades ago in Mexico I had a conversation with an American whose father was an American diplomat in Palestine before the creation of Israel. He was a young student at the American School in Jerusalem who rode the public buses to and from school every day. He told the story of how one day on a public bus, he witnessed a Palestinian man get on the bus and order a Jew to get up and give him his seat. The Jewish man refused, whereupon the Palestinian and several of his fellow Arabs fell upon the Jew, beat him bloody, and threw him off the bus. THIS is the reason the Jewish State was created — because the Jews were experiencing at the hands of their Palestinian neighbors much the same treatment they received at the hands of the Nazis.

          The Palestinians seem to understand only one thing — violence. Where is the humanity in that?! No doubt there are hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims in this world; however, tolerance does not seem to be one of the major tenets of the Muslim religion. And please tell me who is the leader of the Islamic Peace Movement! They show us again and again that they refuse to live side by side with anyone who embraces any religion other than Islam.

          • Jack W says:

            skibuff41: It is interesting to me that when certain questions are posed … the uninitiated always have a ready answer. I quote you . ”Unfortunately, that cannot be done unilaterally. If the Israelis drop their weapons and attempt with words to get Hamas to do the same, the Israelis will suffer the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazis in WWII. They will once again be exterminated — wholesale” I said in my original comment that everything is effect, effect, effect, effect, effect. The Israelis get for their tiny country (smaller than the state of Alabama, 3 (three) billion dollars anually from the American Tax payers … which Alabama does not get from the Federal government … without which the state of Israel would have collapsed decades ago and what do the Israelis do with that money … buy arms to kill occupied territory,Palastinian women children and young guys playing football on the beach..

            Had the British and the American not tried to settle a political problem (from shame) on the back of the Palestinians and further if in 1968 they had; the Israelis been content with the bit they had instead of a preemptive strike for more of the Palestinian land and occupied them keeping them OPPRESSED. The Jewish Semites could have learned to live in peace with their fellow Semites. They didn’t feeling that the world owed them something and meantime have created a propaganda campaign to justify their “Superiority complex”.

            I am aware that not all Jews and not all Israelis agree with what their government is doing. I also think for all their PR machine they are beginning to lose the war of words The Israelis have to act unilaterally if they want to save their country and their culture. Things in the wold are changing fast and if the Israelis give up the war of words and retreat back to the 1967 borders as Obama asked Netenyatu they wil be surprised that yes, … they can make a PEACE. Then maybe the world will follow that example.

            The Hamas are a faction that got created by and through the Israeli policy. However, I don’t expect you to even vaguely understand that. “C’est la vie”

            Jack

  46. Patrick says:

    This (below) was written by the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, and, as it was strategically important it was suppressed and was never released to the public until many years later:

    “There are people (the Arabs, Editor’s Note) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another … if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.”

  47. Margaret says:

    Steve,
    ok, what you mention is also an umacceptable standpoint.
    but when people are standing literally with their baks against the wall, they start relying on whoever offers then any support, in this case Hammas.

    more and more the situation becomes polarized and extreme, a cycle that can only start changing its downward direction if some real openings would come up for genuine participation.

    i think more reasonable forces within both groups would get a chance, people that are tired of the craziness of this ongoing slaughter, and would want to support more constructive solutions.

    but I fear we are far from that, as as long as Israel does not offer real participation in a more unified kind of government, of what is a very entertwined complex situation, of teritories and roads and far too many fences only the hardliners on both sides seem to be getting the lead.

    an unacceptable charter from one party in my opinion does not give the right for this brute attack on civilians that can’t even get away.

    if it would be only about tunnels, there would be other ways to detect and block them, I am sure Israel has equipment that is advanced enough to do that locally on the spots where they cross the many boundaries they set up.

    communication and making allowances and agreements is the only way, one state and democratic power for everyone could offer a solution, but maybe that would be only an option in a very far future, if ever.

    on both sides less extreme views would have to become stronger, and in this situation that seems unlikely.

    a third party could help, but that third party should take stronger standpoints than they have done so far. with more back-up on both sides from other countries.

    but hey, that is only my personal view of a situation I have only a very limited idea about, and far too little knowledge.

    i can only see that what happens now is not right.

    M.

  48. Patrick says:

    Margaret – you make some points but I don’t like this kind of ‘both sides’ way of talking. The State of Israel is meant to be running things there, they are the Government, if that is how they ‘run’ a country it certainly seems it would be better that they were never given that responsibility.

    Of course if they are in the words of the British Prime Minister in the early 1900’s “a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars” it makes everything that is going on there more understanable. That’s exactly how it has played out and it is not over yet Syrian and Iran among others have yet to be dismembered.

  49. Miguel says:

    If you want peace prepare yourself for war, si vis pacem, praeparet bellum (latin)

    A. Janov told us that beliefs was the most superior force that ever existed on earth, and that they were the opium of people.

    Actually this war in the Middle East is caused by two different beliefs. It is not about race or genes but beliefs, cultures. It is true that some cultures are more tolerant than others. Or what is the same: some neurosis are more ugly and intolerant than others.

    Our culture emerged in the Middle East 10,000 years ago and with its neurosisIis based in theses beliefs systems which are really a defence system. Which should make us reflect on our culture and origins.

    The best solutions and ideal are based on peace. But one thing is to be good and the other being silly. If my neighbor wanted to exterminate me, I would talk to him to show him he’s wrong that it is better to cooperate than fight or compete , but once all the possibilities of dialogue are exhausted I would defend to the fullest.

    Romans already said: if you want yorself peace prepares for war. The dialectic

    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – I feel to put down these differences to different ‘beliefs’ to be unconvincing. More important than beliefs is food land water, electricity etc. Things that are being denied and taken away from the Palestinians. Beliefs are the ‘top end’ more basic is survival itself and I don’t like this kind of way of saying ‘oh they are all crazy with different ‘beliefs’ and if only they could me more enlightened they could live like us in the west, atomised alienated individuals’. Also people by nature are social and it is totally natural to belong to a tribe or group or country. I find that living in Ireland as I am for the Summer there is much more a sense of ‘tribe’ or country than say in the US or UK and to me at least all the better for that

      I think in the West generally we are missing that ‘tribal element’ it is actually something ‘missing’ and we do all kinds of things as a result…………..including going into ‘therapies’

      • Patrick says:

        I don’t know much abuot Jung but I think that was one of his big differences with Freud who was approaching things very much from an individual viewpoint. Jung had this notion of the ‘Collective Unconscious’ and I think it is very real in more ‘indigenous’ cultures. I certainly feel echoes of it in Ireland but it is something that is gone pretty much in the ‘developed’ countries. And we can kid ourselves about how ‘free’ we are or how free of ‘beliefs’ we are and if only these ‘primitives’ could be more like us peace might break out…………..a false hope I would say.

  50. Miguel says:

    Irena. Thanks for your comment

    Margaret .Thanks for your comments.

    I hope you finish your studies in psychology and be a good and empathetic psychotherapist

    Miguel

  51. Daniel says:

    Oh boy. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a complex one, that for some reason or other always draws attention, and I don’t feel like really getting into it. But I can’t help take up one issue that Jack and Patrick brought up.

    Jack says: “… the British … and the American’s, after World War II decided that Jews should have a homeland with land taken from the then Palestine”.
    And Patrick quotes the Bannerman Report: “.. a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this [arab] nation..”.

    Both of these ideas come to mean that Jews have no legitimate connection to this piece of land and it’s all just political power plays. But, is that a fair portrayal?

    For centuries Jews all over the world end the Passover ceremony by saying, “Next year in rebuilt Jerusalem”. And, do you know how many times Jerusalem is mentioned in the old testament? 656 times! Now surely this is not some imperialist ploy but a genuine yearning for and an affiliation with the so-called land of Israel from which the Jews were expelled twice (so far).

    This obviously does not mean that the Palestinians do not have a similar affiliation – the do – but do the Jews. I told you it’s complex.

    • Jack W says:

      I heartily disagree Daniel. Jews were living in Palestine for year and ‘what right’, does one supposed culture, deserve a homeland all unto themselves. Quoting history and especially that dubious history of the Old Testament doesn’t make it any more right for anyone to have have a homeland. There’s only one homeland … Planet Earth

      The question I have posed several times as a counter argument to the fact; Jews were persecuted down time. Until one get’s into the psychology of why one group gets persecuted as opposed to others … never gets discussed. I take my own sub sub sub culture of being ‘gay’ and could easily ask why we gays have been persecuted … all down time? Having been a party to many groups of gays on many occations … it is not surprising. We are a pompous lot when in a group and I for one have concluded that, that does not endear us to anyone. My sexual orientation is only one minor part of me. I would equally assume that applies to Jews. I’ve met Jews I hated, all the way through to my greatest mentor in my youth being Jewish. Just like I don’t like Christians trying to inculcate their belief onto me, I would equally hate any ‘gay’ person trying to do the same … to me or any other person.

      As opposed to Jews, the Israelis I gather are not pleasant to the other half of their Semite brothers … the Palestinians. Herein lies the problem. It can seem almost impossible at times to have perfect peace … even with ones lover. The problem is simple … one word … “Neurosis”

      Jack

      • Phil says:

        With our modern understandings that all people are equal and should have the same rights, it is clear that Zionism was a big mistake. Because of this, I would think that Israelis should be apologetic and accommodating. Instead they continue to be obnoxious and aggressive. It is a terrible problem. The US was, I believe, the first country to recognize Israel’s independence and this was, in my view, a huge error. Phil

        • Jack W says:

          Phil: It is my feeling that the 20th Century made several political blunders. Stalins take over of the “dictatorship of the proleteriat, the rise of Hitler … perhaps in response to his own paranoia of Communism and maybe some historic event in his life that cause him to hate Jews. Then the third one was the creation of Israel on Arab (Palestinian) land..

          Why, in my opinioon, it was a major political blunder was the both The US and The UK, thought (mistakenly), they were soloving a political problem … stemming IMO from their own gult that a Eureopean demacracy (Germany) could perform an act of such horrendous proportions. The effect of that as I see it is that Zionism took on a greater mandate for itself, to create their own homeland. It has haunted the West now for over 60 years and has NOT made living in Israel any the safer. Nor will it ever IMO.

          Jack

          • Phil says:

            Jack: The rise of Hitler and Stalin were not events comparable to the creation of Israel. Those dictators were criminal psychopaths skilled and lucky enough to gain power in their countries. The Zionist movement gained momentum because of misguided British policy; a mistake repeated by the US. Looking at history it seems wrong to let any individual leader hold excessive powers. This can easily be seen in the US where presidents of both parties have taken us to unnecessary wars bypassing or manipulating congress in a wave of patriotism. It is too easy to resort to using force, it seems to be a part of our culture. I favor a system where the leader would be severely limited and unable to make such executive decisions. Leadership by committee might be preferable. Phil

            Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 21:11:08 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

            • Jack W says:

              Phil: For the most part I agree with you … but the problem lies deeper that this and has to do with the human development (not the human condition). Something in our human evolution (my guess … but only a guess) was that some 40,000 years ago we became neurotic. Bernard Campbell a Cambridge archaeologist proposed one idea. However even if we knew accurately how and/or why we became neurotic that doesn’t anywhere near resolve how we might change it. It might seem that some sort of mass education might do it, but I have my doubts that even that would be possible (my feeling that education [teaching] is part the the neurosis, rather than “permitting learning”).

              However to bring up my favorite ‘contention’ again, the very abolition of money and any form of exchange might/could bring about the complete reversal, almost by osmosis.

              I have been a political anarchist for many years (I am not active in any anarchic activism), but then with the sudden, for me, understanding of “neurosis” 40 years ago, after reading “The Primal Scream” many insights started to fall into place for me. I know not what would happen if, by some miracle, we could abolish money … hence; governments and it’s handmaiden ‘law’ … but I do know that what we have with governments, politicians then police to keep it in place and prisons if one does not toe the line, and then armies (militarism) if one section of humanity felt their power threatened, isn’t working. The human cost of keeping this “capitalist system’ in place, creates the most abominable horror, pain, death, starvation and utter destruction of shelter for millions of humans.

              To come back to the current crisis in the ‘middle east’ Why will the Israelis NOT negotiate with the Hamas. They are the two protagonist and yet Israel is willing to negotiate with anyone and everyone except the Hamas. Pure lunacy. To and for me, therein is the problem. The Israelis want it all their own way … and the Hamas are determined that one way or another they will prevent them. We are stuck.

              Jack

  52. Daniel says:

    errata. That sentence before last should read: “This obviously does not mean that the Palestinians do not have a similar affiliation – the do – but so do the Jews”

  53. Daniel says:

    Another errata? It should read: “This obviously does not mean that the Palestinians do not have a similar affiliation – they do – but so do the Jews”

  54. Daniel says:

    To Phil and Jack W.
    So you are both in agreement that it would be better if the state of Israel ceased to exist. After all, it’s a big mistake, way up there with Stalin and Hitler, and it still haunts the world. By the way, are there any other countries that need to go away or is it just Israel?

    One side of me would like to go into this, but I’ll just leave you with a small poem written by the German pastor Martin Niemöller. It’s called ‘First They Came For The Jews’.

    First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    • Jack W says:

      Daniel: There are hundreds of historical incidents of one peoples taking land from others. In more recent time I would say the British were the greatest culprits. What they did to the planet as a whole and in particular Africa, parts of Asia, the whole of Australasia and certainly the whole of North America; solved nothing for anyone. until the British Empire collapsed of it’s own dead weight.

      I have no idea how, after World War II, but had it been left to the Zionist to fight for a piece of land WITHOUT being subsidized by the U.S. tax payers … I am sure there would have been quite a different outcome. I think the Zionist, wherever they might have finished up; perhaps their own state in the U.S,. or a piece of Germany, OR wherever … things would be far different to what is happening now … with the demolishing of homes and killing defenseless men, women and children in Gaza. I suspect there is going to be a major back-lash on the Israel government and quite possibly be a UN mandate for the Israelis to return to the 1967 borders and for the U.S to go bankrupt and have to abandon the 3 (three) billion dollar hand out.

      The Hamas is an outgrowth (*effect, effect, effect, effect”) of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians. Having the right to defend themselves is not the same as insanely demolishing Gaza and it’s people. It only creates the Hamas to set out to ultimately demolish Israel. This is a debacle that is solving NOTHING for anyone.

      Jack

      • Daniel says:

        Jack, to get the facts right:
        1. The Zionists in Israel fought the war in 1948 (their war of independence) without any American aid. The Israeli budget for 2014 is some 400 billion Israeli Shekels, By today’s exchange rate it’s about 117 billion US dollars. So, 3 billion is a lot but not that much. And, since most of it must be spent in the US it is actually a subsidy for the US military industry.

        2. Israel accepted the UN resolution dividing Palestine into a Jewish and a Palestinian states , and accordingly a day before the British mandate ended declared it’s statehood and independence. The Arabs did not. Instead, Palestinian, Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrian forces started a war which they lost. For some reason this is a fact rarely mentioned, presumably because it puts – God forbid – some responsibility for the Arab condition on the Arabs themselves. About 1% of the Israeli population at the time was killed in that conflict (by today’s numbers the equivalent of some 31 million Americans or 6 million British people).

        3. As I said in an earlier post, the Jews have a very strong historical attachment to that piece of land (as do the Palestinians), and none for Germany or the US or any other place on earth. Yes, of course things would have been different if Israel was not there, but things would have been different also if the US wasn’t there. What do you say, how about returning it all to the Indians and going back to Europe and Africa and Asia?

        • Jack W says:

          Daniel: Your last phrase “returning all (the land) to the Indians” I’m all for that. They seemingly managed the land far better than the (British) colonials and the subsequent U.S.

          As for Jews having some affinity with that land … as it did the Palestinians … but that does not give them the RIGHT (whatever that means) to occupy it … make preemptive war to control a bit more of it, and subject the other guys that also had an affinity with it … to oppression … out of … I suspect, paranoia.

          As a kid I learned quickly to ‘tread carefully’ around the other kids, especially the bigger ones. Since … I now just tread carefully around policemen.

          Jack

    • Phil says:

      Daniel, I didn’t say that I thought Israel should cease to exist but that isn’t a bad idea. It could be replaced with a peaceful and inclusive state. Everyone involved would have to agree however, and that’s unlikely to happen. Phil Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 22:13:50 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  55. Margaret says:

    Daniel,
    that is right, and so do the christians .
    so maybe a new way of thinking would be to sort of create like a multi-cultural ‘protectorat’, supervised by an assemblee of all concerned and some extra unbyassed parties, supervising and even governing the territory…?

    would raise protests in all the camps but in a way could function like a cultural heritage kind of thing, without barriers and frontiers to guard..

    sounds like an illusion, but is just a suggestion for a way of thinking more gernerally out of the box, remember Vivian’s quote to start thinking like humans instead of within the rigid lines of nationalism or religion, looking for the common ground instead of the differences.

    not that I have any hope of seeing such a thing happening in my own lifespan really, if ever…

    maybe one day when women gain more ‘power’, they might focus more on peace and security and possibilities for their children to grow up happily and being able to deverlop themselves, than on the ‘who is in charge and who has the power’ stuff.

    how do we get along and what are our shared interests?

    what is beneficial for the both of us, what is the best option in the long run, how can we find good compromises we can all live with?

    yeah, Imagine, etc., and yeah, I am a dreamer..
    I do think it is important to keep in mind how the ideall situation would be..
    M.

  56. I am now a grandad since Monday. Wish I could say I am overjoyed at this birth, but I can’t. Cute baby who looks too too much like me. Don’t want to bond with him due to various bonding issues i have. Seeing the baby triggers me and brings up images of baby (me?) being slammed against the wall. I worry for my son because he is paid so little. I worry how little the baby will get, once my son and his wife have to go back to work. I worry that all the neglect I stupidly did to my son, will get done to this baby. I have no money to give to my son. They moved further away from us, so they could be closer to my daughter-in-law’s mother, so that mother could help with the baby. However, her mother has to go back to work too, so she can give my son and daughter-in-law money to live on. Wife BC had a brilliant idea of getting a hybrid car, so she could travel down the 405 to San Pedro to help take care of the baby. Her thought was that she would use the carpool lane to make a quick trip, and they hybridness of the car would save money because we would buy less gas. But BC needs the A/C on in this heat, which killed the gas mileage. Plus the 405 is unforgiving, as most freeways are. If there is an accident, which there always is, the carpool lane is blocked too. Ok, no seques here…I heard GB or someone talk at the retreat about somebody that was selfish, and now i feel very selfish. Wife BC lost her job and I am panicked about making the rent in September. I finally got some overtime, but it will get spent at whole foods and other expensive places. I was in Rota, Spain in 1974 and 5, hoping to become a great film-maker. Drugs, booze, and murder of my best friend, and death of my favorite uncle began the end of that dream. Drugs and booze and probably marriage kept me from getting to PT for 10 years; and I can no more afford PT now, then I did at the beginning. ISIS taking over Syria and Iraq and mutilating vaginas and stoning women, and there is nothing I can do about it. Maybe there was a chance to have stopped them in Iraq, when they were on the open roads, by bombing the crap out of them, but that did not happen. I feel the bullets that fly into bodies of good muslims, bad muslims, good jews, bad jews, good deer, I am not sure whether there are bad deer or not. It has been 100 degrees in the valley today, and the A/C in my bedroom is finally making it cool enough to be in here. Dogs have had enough to eat and are sleeping. No bombs are falling on us, but the bombs that are falling these days, are unimaginable, and the bombs that killed millions in WW2 (according to the Oliver Stone untold history of the US series that BB recommended to me) are unimaginable, unless they dropped on you. Listen to me carefully…I did not like the Jackass tv series when my kids used to watch it. But we went to see my son and his wife and new baby last night, and my son showed us a movie from the Jackass people, about an old guy and his grandson. And this is such a fucking great movie! It should get an Oscar. Funnier than hell. I get chills down my spine writing this about that movie. I did not get teary or feel sad during the movie, now i feel a little teary and i dont know why. anyway it was good to be with my son, and laugh loudly like we used to when we watched the Simpsons, Married with Children, and such, when he was a kid. Thank fucking god for comedy… Ok thanks for listening. As usually, please dont mention my name.

  57. Patrick says:

    Israel is bombing the graves now so Palestinians have problems buying their dead. Yet another thing they can’t do. Maybe Hamas are hiding in graves or they soon will be. But sadly all this will be ‘forgotten’ and even ‘forgiven’ a few week from now. This is also not a ‘heated outburst’ from Isreal this is thought out ahead of time and planned meticously and it is done every other year. Standard operating procedure. And if someone complains a few weeks from now they will be called an ‘anti-semite’ as ‘forgetting’ kicks in.

    • Daniel says:

      Patrick, regarding civilian toll in Gaza you say,

      Israel is bombing the graves now so Palestinians have problems burying their dead… This is also not a ‘heated outburst’ from Israel this is thought out ahead of time and planned meticulously…

      So, you actually believe that the assignments and operation orders that the Israeli pilots or artillery men or infantry man receive are “bomb that graveyard so they won’t bury their dead, look for civilians and kill them, send your missiles into that school filled with pupils, etc.” How do you know that? Where is your evidence (or don’t you need any when making such accusations)? What military purpose will such orders serve and how will they advance the Israeli objectives to remove threats against it from rockets and tunnels?

      You obviously have none of these because they simply don’t exist. What seems much more likely is that these are inadvertent killings, probably because they were too near a legitimate target, or mistakes.

      Such mistakes happen in every war. In 1945 the British flew a mission to bomb the Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen in Operation Carthage. The mission was successful, but part of the raid was mistakenly directed against the nearby Jeanne d`Arc boarding school; it resulted in a total of 125 civilian deaths, including 86 schoolchildren and 16 adults at the school, and 67 children and 35 adults were wounded. I give this example because war always includes mistakes that cause death and destruction.

      • Patrick says:

        One thing Daniel is things have moved on a bit from the second world war in terms of GPS and stuff like that. To give you an example we live way out in the country here in the West of Ireland in a house by itself off a small road. Last week we had someone coming from England to see the house and I wondered how he would find it so I sat by the side of the road. After a while a car come along and just pulls into the drive way. I ask the guy how he ‘knew’ where to stop, he just said ‘co-ordinates’. The co-ordinates of the house are published in some tourist book he puts them into his GPS device and boom there you have it.

        Yesterday the Israeli’s bombed the UN SHELTER where a lot of wounded people were being treated and the UN worker specifically said they had given the ‘co-ordinates’ to the Israelis and STILL they bombed them. I think it IS a strategy of showing utter disregard, they WANT to show the Palestinians they are not worth a crap, utter de-humanization and they want the Palestinians to KNOW it and know it they do. Bombing a graveyard is just an extreme sign of disrespect and disregared which the Israelis’ are proud to show. I don’t buy this ‘mistakes happen in war’ excuse, they know that’s available AS an excuse and therefore use it when needed.

        Most of all of the news is censored coming out of there and self censored, a SKY news camera showed something with all the ‘horrible bits’ blurred out, we have NO idea of the pure horror that is being inflicted on these people and knowingly, yes KNOWINGLY done. The whole enterprise from start to finish is illegitimate and and to me shows Jews/Israelis in an extremely bad light, a people who are capable of utter duplicity and cruelty are in my mind utterly un-trustworthy and it is time all this stuff is called for what it is.

  58. Margaret says:

    Elephant man,
    again this comment of yours grabbed me by the balls I don’t have..

    sorry, that is the only descritption that somehow seems to be fit to say something about how your comment really got straight into my system with its directness and honesty.

    congratulations grandpa, sounds like you do care a lot about your son, the little kidddo, and all the others
    things you mention.

    thanks for writing this here, wish you and your family the very best, including the furry bunch,
    M.

  59. Daniel says:

    Patrick,
    Since WWII things have moved on in terms of technology but not in term of human fallibility. People still make mistakes, even in the army and especially during war. For example, some of the Israeli soldiers killed in this war were killed accidentally by other Israeli soldiers, as happens in any war (so called ‘friendly fire’. But, hey, who knows? Maybe the Israelis kill their own just to add a final touch to their devilish conspiracies). Likewise, many of the rockets the Hamas fires toward Israel land in Gaza itself. In all wars mistakes happen all the time. And by the way, Israel’s record is better than NATO’s in Kosovo or the US in Iraq.

    You say,

    I think it IS a strategy of showing utter disregard, they WANT to show the Palestinians they are not worth a crap, utter de-humanization and they want the Palestinians to KNOW it and know it they do. Bombing a graveyard is just an extreme sign of disrespect and disregard which the Israelis are proud to show.

    Again, how do you know this? Have you ever read anything written about Israeli strategy? (A great deal was written) Have you heard any Israeli official ever say something to that effect? Was anything ever leaked to you? What are your sources for that? Do you actually think this is how wars are conducted? Or, is it just something you KNOW in your heart to be true. Well, if it is it says nothing about Israeli strategy but does say something about your heart. I wonder, what that something might be?

    You go on to say,

    … to me [it] shows Jews/Israelis in an extremely bad light, a people who are capable of utter duplicity and cruelty are in my mind utterly un-trustworthy and it is time all this stuff is called for what it is.

    Ah, so it’s not just the Israelis anymore – it’s the Jews. Those duplicitous, cruel, un-trustworthy Jews. Well, you’ve certainly revealed what that something might be. Do you think it’s time all this stuff (of yours) is called for what it is?

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Best be careful, Patrick. It looks like Daniel’s almost ready to cast a Jewish money hex on you and you will suffer pecuniary misfortune of the rest of your natural life. How do you dare to proceed from here, I wonder?

      • Patrick says:

        Well first and more importantly it’s good to see you back Guru. Where have you been lurking?

        Daniel – neither you or I ‘know’ eneough to solve any of this stuff. But I DO have my reactions and to myself at least they feel ‘grounded’ and not at variance with ‘reality’. I get tired of all this pussy footing around about ‘both sides’ blah blah blah, what the Israelis are doing is horrible disgusting, cruel, devious I can make up a hundred words the reality is the same.

        It’s not only the Israelis/Jews the modern world seems to be based on the destruction of nature, the seas are dying, frogs, bees, etc etc are dying out at rates that are scary, we seemingly are on a very bad track. But the way I see it what I call the US/UK/Israeli ‘axis of evil’ are constantly pushing for wars and more wars in Syria, Ukraine, Libya, Iran it doesn’t matter, More and more wars and Israel whether the cause of them or the pretext being used doesn’t really matter. Like the British setting up the State of Israel are the Jews using the British or vica versa. Does it matter?

        And for what it’s worth me being Irish have my own take on this. The Irish were the ‘indigenous’ people that the English ‘practiced’ their imperialism and cruelty on first so if I may dare I kind of look at it that way. As I said before the Irish have an instinctive understanding and empathy with the Palestinians for very good and historical reasons. I have noticed it living here and I am encouraged by it. Because as far as mainstream US or UK media forget about it.

        Does that make me an ‘anti-semite’? My reaction is you can call me any dirty name you like it does not change the reality of what is happening. And it pisses me off that you ARE trying that old hoary trick.

  60. Patrick says:

    I had this notion these modern wars……………are invented/designed by Israel/Jews, implemented and run by the United States and ‘sold’ (think Tony Blair’s smiley face and now Cameron’s stuffed shirt hypocricy) by the British.

    And I thought kind of like ‘primal therapy’……………………….

  61. Patrick says:

    ……………and to carry the conceit a little further, you have the ‘well meaning’ Europeans (Germans, Swedish, Danish, Swiss etc) kind of being used in the middle of this in different ways and also providing a lot of the ‘financing’………….then you have a few stray ‘self hating Irish’ like myself (not only Jews are ‘self hating’) caught in the web………….and as far as the real ‘indiginous’ the people who are actually a lot closer to a ‘primal’ way of being……………..they are nowhere to be seen not does it seem to have anything to say to them……………

  62. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    (Neutral on Israel/Palestine: Not enough room in my mind for it)
    Peasantry tasks: Shave, wash dishes, wash clothes, take out trash

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Oh yeah, Elephant Man:

      Have your wife put imitation Freeze Pak/ fake ice cubes in freezer overnight. She brings small cooler & fresh ice packs in car to work. Ice packs to be used where needed in absence of auto air conditioning. Keep one hand on steering wheel. Put ice packs in cooler for all day storage when arriving at work. Rinse. Repeat. Ice packs back in fridge after home from work.

  63. Margaret says:

    Elephant Man,
    which movie was that?

    Guru,
    so nice to hear you back, I was really starting to worry a bit, nice to picture you doing your peasantry tasks, aren’t they satisfying?

    feel down, and scared of going down deeper still..

    all seems kind of hopeless and empty.

    will just have to keep moving in hope to get through this emotional swamp at some point..

    girlfriend coming by soon, so I bettter go shower now and get dressed etc.

    daniel, you have a sharp mind and your comments are nice reading.

    i still think your view on it all being accidental collateral damage, those schools and hospitals being bombed might be a little too much of a wishful thinking, but I can’t hold that against you really, in case of doubt it seems better to me to give the benefit of the doubt first, and it says something about there not being too much hate in your heart in general.

    still after so many of these ‘mistakes’ isn’t it about time to change strategy I would think…?

    in any case I don’t have any answers at all, only feel sad about all that suffering and pain.

    patrick,
    after some of the things you said in your anger, you can’t seriously be surprised of being called antisemitic?
    maybe you should reread some of your own last sentences and admit they are maybe a bit over the top…?

    seems some connection there with all the rage and despair you still carry, but hey, just speculating, forgive me if I am wrong, smiley..

    we all mean well, I know, and we all don’t want other people to suffer, is the main feeling here.

    M think

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I find the whole ‘anti-semitic’ charge mostly absurd and a very manipulative move to put any critics on the defensive so I sort of reject taking it seriously out of hand, I almost ‘welcome’ it in a way. But of course if someone has anything to lose (do I ?) it can certainly cost a person big time. It’s one of those things that throws everything back on the person kind of like “it’s your feeling”

  64. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Well hi Margaret:
    Thank you for your welcome back. You’re such a sweet person!
    Will post again a little later, I suppose.

    Patrick: This is only a hypothetical question, OK? Maybe just a pipe dream question, but I was curious: Do you think it’s possible to turn a mere $2,000 into $1 million in 6 months? Or would I just be talking out of my ass with that? Just asking you for fun, nothing more…

    • Jack W says:

      Guru: I can answer that one:- Take two thousand dollar bills and fold them. That way you’ve doubled it. Then fold them again …. more doubling …then screw it all up in your hand, and then when you straighten it all out it’s in-creaed

      Surprised you didn’t know that.

      Jack

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Jack:
        Since you’ve decided to take Patrick’s place I will defer to your answer. It would be a very high-risk, high-pressure assignment anyway. Let us now forget this googly-eyed, pie-in-the-sky fantasy I espoused.

  65. Margaret says:

    just heard on the news there was a demonstration in London against the violence in Ghaza, and muslims and orthodox Jews walked in it side by side..
    interesting.
    M

  66. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    if you use frases like ‘Jews are …’ or any other group for that reason, you have to accept the consequences of having accused a whole group of a certain bad quality.

    it would be much more usuful imo if you’d be more cautious and specific in your accusations, referring to more specific parties or even single members instead of labelling an entire group as being so and so..

    i think you know that actually, so what makes you search the confrontation once more?

    might be useful to look for the deeper pattern, I don’t need to hear more specifics on the Israeli Palestine situation, believe me I do care a lot about it as well, and also feel very concerned.

    • Larry says:

      I don’t know whether there is a pattern, but I sure feel one. The way Patrick is getting flak from everyone for over the top beating up on the Israelis, feels very much like the way Patrick got flak from everyone for over the top beating up on a mischievous helpless old man here on the blog.

      Also, what gets me is if the Irish are understood to be a damaged society torn broken by severe oppression, surely one could see the Israelis as a society damaged by a social memory of severe oppression. Of all people Patrick, you understand what it is like to be bullied, and as you’ve said your automatic reaction is to lash out defensively. That’s what I see the Israelis doing….lashing out defensively. I see Hamas doing the same thing, lashing out. Someone has to stop, just like you eventually stopped bullying and beating on Jack. You had Gretchen, group, the retreats, and this blog to help you. I don’t see anyone helping the Israelies and Hamas to back away from beating each other up. They are in a crazy predicament and we fall in and take sides that inflame the situation rather than help them both out of it.

      • Patrick says:

        Larry – that’s a good connection you make…………..one that had not occured to me, am I in some way like the “Israelis”………….I suppose I have to cop to it a bit. I CAN be like that if my sense of ‘fairness’ is insulted or outraged which I suppose is also how they see it. Still I don’t want to go too far with this…………………..not at this moment at least……………but thanks that pretty sharp of you I would say.

  67. Margaret says:

    although I felt very down and feared to go down even more this morning, I seem now to regain some feeling of strength..

    a few factors seem vital, firstly and most importantly a minimal amount of interaction with other people, in a direct way, like assistants and girlfriend coming over to my place.

    that seems to help to dissipate the hopeless feeling of utter isolation..

    then the factor of regaining some control over practical issues, cleaning my place more thoroughly now the heatwave is over, and finding some routine in studying again.

    also a major factor is the control over my use of painkillers, losing it upon return, regaining it for several days in a row, losing it again and hopefully regaining it once more..

    during my stay of three weeks in L.A. I only took two half painkillers, in total.

    upon returning my stresslevel immediately peaked and all the positive factors of company and metings dropped, thus in the evening giving me no motivation or distraction to lay awake for a while and see if I could fall asleep anyway, which usually worked during my trip.
    on the retreat I could even fall asleep within a minute while people around me were talking..

    company seems to ease my mind, specially familiar and friendly company..

    in other words it seems crucial to take care of my social contacts, finding a balance between taking up challenges and keeping my sresslevel into bearable limits..

    my stay has been a bit of a bumpy ride this visit, for the first time at a given point making me feel the anxiety was maybe not worth the effort or the reward, but then eventually some feelings broke through which instantly dissipated that huge anxiety level, and a few days later assessing my stay in my last session, I noticed how the whole process had actually started to make me much stronger.

    I am still in the dialectic fase seemingly of feeling some of the fear and hopelessness, to then recover, and then feeling some more etc…

    today on the phone with a girlfriend mentioned how sometimes I feel very down, and her response was to call her when I would go too low..

    having a friend like that feels so important, not because I would call her but just for the mere possiblility of sharing some of what goes on and feeling some support.

    i know I would and do call her in case of emergency or crisis, but I won’t turn her into some kind of therapist or band-aid, we are friends offering each other good times and support when necessary, but the good times must prevail.

    she will come by tomorrow, plan is I go to yoga class first and then we have lunch..

    she was going to come by today originally, but called she had been cleaning instead and did not really feel like it, which was fine.

    I had been cleaning too, and had seen my cat lady to pay her, and was studying so it did not leave me empty in any way as we meet tomorrow..

    sorry if this sounds tedious to the readers, smiley, but thinking out loud onhere is better than only to talk to my cat or the walls..

    M

    • Larry says:

      After making a living and taking care of one’s physical health and needs, I think social contacts are unquestionably of prime importance Margaret.

  68. Daniel says:

    Patrick,
    I’m not sure why in your mind you can call Jews (an entire race) a duplicitous, cruel and un-trustworthy people while I can’t call you (a single person) a Jew- hater.

    Being critical of Israel and its policies and actions is perfectly legitimate and accordingly I never tried to prevent you from speaking your mind, erroneous as I think you are. I myself am very critical of Israel’s policies and actions toward the Palestinians.

    But when you expand your criticism to include the Jews as a people, be they in Los-Angeles, Antwerp, Berlin, Moscow, Buenos-Aires or next door to you in Dublin; and when you go on and describe them as being duplicitous, cruel and un-trustworthy, and charge them with designing wars everywhere; and you do that without a single shred of evidence beyond having a personal reaction of your own, then it’s an entirely different matter.

    Now, when you conjure up an image of a Jew in your mind – any Jew, even the one who has been living in Dublin for the past 5 generations – that image is of a war-mongering, duplicitous, cruel and un-trustworthy person. And when this foul image is based entirely on a personal reaction of your own, that personal reaction is distinctive enough to merit a name of its own. It’s a phenomenon called anti-Semitism, which I prefer calling Jew hating.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – to me a lot of these things can become ‘chicken and egg’ type situations. I don’t accept the way you describe me is accurate. Also there is a problem with ‘generalizations’ to me they can be very useful, I do feel a person’s (ethnic) background can explain a lot sometimes but not all of course. But there is another problem where all ‘generalizations’ are made taboo…………..then a lot than even can or should be said is not allowed. And then you are into this kind of extreme ‘political correctness’. And (to generalize) I feel Jews do that a lot and take advantage of that and I find it very ironic that Jews are often on the forefront of denouncing ‘racism’ in all it’s forms and possible forms and even hints of it and yet………………they run a frankly ‘racist’ and ‘apartheid’ state (Israel) By any measure the MOST ‘racist’ state there is on the planet……………………..how can that circle be squared?

      • Daniel says:

        Patrick,
        Here you go at it again, making accusations that I doubt you can back up. You don’t mean there are racist Israelis (I’m sure there are), and not even that there are racist trends in Israeli society (there are), but that the state is racist. Now when you say that you must mean that it’s an institutional racism, but can you actually point at this institutional racism?

        State racism must be ingrained into the legal and judicial systems, be it in the state or local level (for example, an ordinance that says that blacks cannot ride in the same bus as whites). And it must be wide spread, not just a one or two incidents. So, can you show us what in the Israeli legal or judicial system is racist?

        And by the way, Jews throughout history not only denounced racism but did something about it, be it in South Africa or Marching with Martin Luther King.

        One can generalize from time to time, we all do it, but you seem to have a steady and slanted generalization against Israel and the Jews. At least that’s the way it looks to me.

        • Patrick says:

          Daniel – can you be serious that there is no ‘institutional racism ‘ in Israeli society………………..roads that Palestinians cannot be on etc etc. I know little of the specifics but I find it hard to even read about it it is so disgusting, so cruel and so based on ‘I am better and different than you’. You seem an intelligent man and yet you can sit there and ask me to ‘prove’ something you can easily find out for yourself (if you wanted to). From what I know Israel is a thoroughly ‘racist’ society and it would be good if ‘Jewish leaders’ kept that in mind before denouncing even the slightest hint of it or even discussing it. That kind of double standard I have a real hard time with

          • Patrick says:

            Daniel – it just occurs to me there is an excellent book on current Israel called “Goliath” by Max Blumenthal who is Jewish by the way. I found it hard to read though the level of contempt and harted and yes ‘racism’ displayed against ‘Arabs’ was really hard to take. But IF you want to know it might be a good place to start and maybe stop putting the onus on me to ‘prove’ something that as I say you can learn for yourself

  69. Larry says:

    Emann, you have a unique,expressive, charismatic, engaging way of telling your story. You draw me into your life every time. Too bad your dream of being a film maker died. What was the movie you mentioned that made you laugh so much? I might want to see it..

  70. Margaret says:

    just heard a remarkable little piece of knowledge in a documentary..

    in the mud under mangrove trees the amount of bacteria is so high, that one teaspoon of mud contains 10.000.000.000 bacteria…

    so that would be more than the curent poppulation of humans on this earth, I was actually imagining holding such a sppon and trying to picture all these little individual creatures there, 10 billion of them, picture all of us, litle UG’s, atricks, Jacks etc. together in a teaspoon, I find it awesome to learn stuff like that..

    I find the small world often harder to conceive than the large macrocosms, although that is pretty awesome as well..

    in a way it gives me some hope for life in general to move on despite our human stupidities..

    if only one teaspoon of those would ever survive, well, when they start breeding, things can move fast…

    M

  71. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    (I’m not fond of writing long posts anymore, for I always feel fearful that many peoples’ eyes will glaze over at the “wall of text”. In this case, I must make an exception.)

    This is for Daniel and Tom (from OZ):

    First, both of you guys are curious objects of fascination for me in some ways. I want to make it perfectly clear at the outset that I am not an anti-Semite. I am neutral (or maybe even apathetic) where most religions are concerned. In fact, in the years before I set foot in the Institute I formed some very close, invaluable relations with several Jewish people that literally altered the course of my earlier life. It is a mixed bag for me in some areas, though, for I do feel some significant misgivings in other areas about how some Jews do things in the financial & psychological arenas (not important to discuss here & now).

    I respect that both of you guys steadfastly identify yourselves as Jewish and that you feel a strong loyalty towards the culture & religion. Israel can stay in place forever. No problem with me at all.

    My only question is: How in the hell did you guys end up in Primal Therapy? You do realize that the Main Man, Arthur Janov, is saying, “Although the human brain is an exquisitely complicated organ, it is not mystical (and our consciousness will permanently vaporize upon death)”.

    OK, fine. His statement implies to me that historical religious monuments and artifacts carry no more meaning than as provisional fodder for spirited conversations. It would all just be words generated by the speech centers of the mammalian brain and nothing emotionally worthy of giving your life or higher intellectual sensibilities for,

    As fervent Jews, how did you guys reconcile this conflict by spending a significant chunk of your lives’ energies pursuing a therapy that was promulgated by a complete militant animalistic atheist that has absolutely no use for religion except to keep the citizens’ lawless impulses in check? (I’m referring to Dr. Janov as the atheist in question).

    How does someone who is so strongly identified with a religion become so utterly convinced by the words of a man who implies that the sanest course of action within a normal life is to have no emotional attachment towards any religion at all?

    Please note I don’t say this following part to convince you guys to soften your zealous attachment with Judaism, but….

    I was raised a Catholic, and if someone came in here ranting and raving against the Catholic way I wouldn’t be upset and call them “Anti-Catholics”. I would mostly just yawn and my eyes would sparkle with a wry sense of amusement.

    I always believed Primal Therapy was a breeding ground for atheists and spiritual malcontents, so you two are indeed a refreshing break from the norms represented by this Primal blog in spite of how much you guys’ apparent cognitive dissonances perplex me…

    Too long, didn’t read?
    How do fervently religious people believing we are special children of God become so entranced by the words of a man (Janov) who adamantly proclaims he is nothing more than a senselessly random product of impulse-laden lust destined to vaporize back into nothingness? Endlessly fascinating question for me…

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Couple of footnotes:

      –I do welcome and appreciate Miguel’s contributions to the blog, so I hope I don’t hurt him when I note that on July 10th Miguel wrote: “Mr. Janov, with Vivian Janov gave you a Copernican turn to psychology. May God keep you long.”
      Can anyone understand why this comment drew a cynical chuckle from me?

      –Please don’t hijack these posts, Jack. I would really like to hear from Tom and/or Daniel if at all possible. (Or even any other strongly religious Primal folks…which is a perplexing conflict for me.)

    • Jack W says:

      Guru: My responding to you should not “hijack” any other blogger’s attempt to also respond to you. That is why I recomended that you read the book “Straight and Crooked Thinking”. You “blow off” in writing all sorts of question to one and all, istead of doing some ‘pondering’ of your own, then letting us know what thoughts come out from your guruing. Here’s mine:-.

      People for the most part came to do Primal therapy because they were hurting, and “The Man” not his character, seemingly was offering a way out of that suffering. Presumably you did it for other reasons.

      Next:- What Judaism is; or purports to be, is a culture as well as a religion. I gather Muslims do the same … but then Judaism and Islam came out of Arab folks. Not sure the other religions makes it cultural. Hinduism and Buddhism … don’t know much about them. The Catholics do have a habit of inculcating it into their young at such a young age that somehow they can never free themselves from it, however they might try.

      Finally to stick just one more thorn into your side … for a guru you seem to lack any understanding of other peoples motives and responses. To me, from my ‘unguruness’, it’s all so understandable and actually very simple. But then I am, as I have been informed on hundreds of occassions … just a mere simpleton.

      Jack

      • Jim says:

        Jack: Yes, you are a mere simpleton. Now shut up and go away. I was wanting to hear from either Tom or Daniel. I made this explicitly clear.

        • Jack W says:

          Ultimate Guru: No!!!! I won’t go away … just to appease your … whatever feeling you are having????.

          I’m having fun … that’s the joy, reward, pleasure of being a simpleton Not sure what’s happening to you.

          Jack

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            No, the real question Jack is why you felt the need to be an ass when I courteously asked you to stay away.

            There is truly a point where you make yourself an annoyance to others from any reasonable adult’s perspective. You have definitely crossed that line here.

            Here’s an even better question for you: What if you had been forced not to troll my posts even though you really wanted to just to see if you can get under my skin? What sort of feelings would have come up for you at that point?
            I actually know that you are trolling me to avoid feelings yourself right now.

            You’re the one with the problem here.

            • Jack W says:

              UG: Thank for your psychoanalysis of me … I needed that, but not sure that I picked up on the courteousness

              I’ll add:- I love blogging and even thinking of creating my own. I sincerely hope you too are having fun … if not lighten up. It’s the best feeling of all..

              Jack

  72. Patrick says:

    Here is a guy who has gotten into HUGE trouble in France by being called an ‘anti-semite’ ‘racist’ etc but he is actually a comedian, French mother, father from Cameroon I think. Anyway I like this guy but his career in France has become almost impossible. But if you listen to me he makes sense and to me at least shows how these charges cut both ways (at least)

  73. Patrick says:

    Guru – I will answer you ‘down here’ otherwise it might get lost, your question if it is possible to turn 2K into a million dollars in 6 months? Of course it’s possible and the more ‘insider information’ you the more possible it becomes sometimes bordering on a certaintly…………….so unless you have such information better keep clear of those kinds of fantasies.

    Speaking of gambling I told once my older brother pretty much has that ‘problem’ (I see it as a big problem!) anyway and he told me about this before the World Cup started he put a ‘spread bet’ (you might be familiar with this notion I did not know anything about what it meant) on the number of ‘yellow cards’ that would be issued during the entire tournament. The bookies prediction was around 280 yellow cards and my brother wagered 250 pounds (English money he lives in England) that it would be less. Sounds harmless eneough right? Well apparantly what a ‘spead bet’ means in this case was for EACH card under the 280 he gets 250 pounds conversly if it goes over for EACH card over it costs him 250 pounds. He explained to me his ‘logic’ of why he was convinced it would be less than 280 and I have to admit all his reasoning made very good sense but I am in principle NOT a gambler so I was not interested in actually doing it.

    Anyway his ‘logic’ turned out to be correct and right from the beginning of the tournament he was on a ‘winning streak’ and it end up being about 110 yellow cards LESS than the ‘strike position’. Result is he won about 27,500 pounds. Not a bad ‘return’ but even that I see as a ‘negative’ because it cranks up his ‘gambling gene’ for more mayhem into the future…………….my take at least. But I thought you might enjoy that story and it’s all true……….

    • Jim says:

      5K & 9 months or 2K & one year would give more breathing room. Still an intense pressure cooker assignment with high risk of ruin, though. OK thank you for your answer, Patrick. I see you & Jack are in rare agreement that I am a delusional loon for positing this question. Don’t worry about taking this topic any further.

  74. Patrick says:

    Sorry I realized that interview with the French comedian was Part 2 this is Part 1 and I think gives a good impression of where he is coming from. I find most of what he says mostly the simple truth but this guy’s life has become a misery in France as a result. BTW this was done a few years ago so the prime minister he refers to is Sarkozy who was in power then. Also THEN they was another ‘assault’ on Gaza going on ………………what do the French say plus la change (I don’t speak French so excuse me) anyway the more things change the more things stay the same…………..certainly for the people in Gaza they do

  75. Patrick says:

    Looking at these pictures…………………….can we really with a straight face (or conscience) wonder WHY ? when some of this comes back to us. Karma is a bitch………………….

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2014/jul/26/gaza-ceasefire-takes-hold-in-pictures

  76. Miguel says:

    Guru wrote:

    “Mr. Janov, with Vivian Janov gave you a Copernican turn to psychology. May God keep you long.”
    Can anyone understand why this comment drew a cynical chuckle from me?

    Guru
    You do not hurt me for your comments

    I am agnostic thanks God

    I am interested in people, their humanity.Few days ago I had an interesting conversation with a lovely woman who was a jehovahs witness. I think the charm was mutual.
    Tolerance and laughter even from ourselves and our beliefs and others people beliefs are a good remedy for the ills of this humanity and for the sanity of our souls.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Miguel: That sounds like a very nice meeting you had with that woman. I’m glad you weren’t hurt by my comment.
      You might like this link, Miguel. I once shared it with Patrick (very long read, though, so if time is short for you or you are just not interested there is no obligation to read it):
      http://www.naturalism.org/death.htm

  77. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    (Reprinting this post to allow more clean space away from trailer trash.)
    (I’m not fond of writing long posts anymore, for I always feel fearful that many peoples’ eyes will glaze over at the “wall of text”. In this case, I must make an exception.)

    This is for Daniel and Tom (from OZ):

    First, both of you guys are curious objects of fascination for me in some ways. I want to make it perfectly clear at the outset that I am not an anti-Semite. I am neutral (or maybe even apathetic) where most religions are concerned. In fact, in the years before I set foot in the Institute I formed some very close, invaluable relations with several Jewish people that literally altered the course of my earlier life. It is a mixed bag for me in some areas, though, for I do feel some significant misgivings in other areas about how some Jews do things in the financial & psychological arenas (not important to discuss here & now).

    I respect that both of you guys steadfastly identify yourselves as Jewish and that you feel a strong loyalty towards the culture & religion. Israel can stay in place forever. No problem with me at all.

    My only question is: How in the hell did you guys end up in Primal Therapy? You do realize that the Main Man, Arthur Janov, is saying, “Although the human brain is an exquisitely complicated organ, it is not mystical (and our consciousness will permanently vaporize upon death)”.

    OK, fine. His statement implies to me that historical religious monuments and artifacts carry no more meaning than as provisional fodder for spirited conversations. It would all just be words generated by the speech centers of the mammalian brain and nothing emotionally worthy of giving your life or higher intellectual sensibilities for,

    As fervent Jews, how did you guys reconcile this conflict by spending a significant chunk of your lives’ energies pursuing a therapy that was promulgated by a complete militant animalistic atheist that has absolutely no use for religion except to keep the citizens’ lawless impulses in check? (I’m referring to Dr. Janov as the atheist in question).

    How does someone who is so strongly identified with a religion become so utterly convinced by the words of a man who implies that the sanest course of action within a normal life is to have no emotional attachment towards any religion at all?

    Please note I don’t say this following part to convince you guys to soften your zealous attachment with Judaism, but….

    I was raised a Catholic, and if someone came in here ranting and raving against the Catholic way I wouldn’t be upset and call them “Anti-Catholics”. I would mostly just yawn and my eyes would sparkle with a wry sense of amusement.

    I always believed Primal Therapy was a breeding ground for atheists and spiritual malcontents, so you two are indeed a refreshing break from the norms represented by this Primal blog in spite of how much you guys’ apparent cognitive dissonances perplex me…

    Too long, didn’t read?
    How do fervently religious people believing we are special children of God become so entranced by the words of a man (Janov) who adamantly proclaims he is nothing more than a senselessly random product of impulse-laden lust destined to vaporize back into nothingness? Endlessly fascinating question for me…

  78. Daniel says:

    Guru,
    I’m Jewish by birth, I had no choice about it. I’m not a religious Jew and don’t feel a special child of God. I’m not sure how fervent I am. I’m completely secular but being Jewish is a part of my identity, of who I am, and I guess it’s especially so when Jews as a people are maligned. Perhaps it’s in me because my family (my mother and her side) paid dearly for being Jewish in Nazi Germany, or that the Jewish people in general were persecuted for millennium.

    I find no problem with Janov or his attitude toward religion. I came to PT because I was in pain and I wasn’t able to formulate to myself that this is what I’m feeling until someone gave me the Primal Scream to read. I came to the PI because I was hoping to get some help. So, think of me not as Jewish contribution to neurosis but rather a neurotic contribution to Judaism.

    I don’t know how accurate you are about Janov’s attitude toward religion, but if it is total disregard than I’m sorry to hear that. Long before psychotherapy came to the scene it was religion that dealt with the great questions of life (love, death, sex, faith, bereavement, the Other, etc) so at least it deserves some respect. Unfortunately, today everybody wants to be scientific, including Janov, and in my mind something dear can be lost in that process.

    By the way, Miguel’s line about the Copernican turn also caught my eye, but it’s not appropriate to include my comments about it here.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Daniel:

      I’m glad you responded and thanks for that, but..man….so many things I could say here…

      I want to apologize in advance for not fully engaging with your good post, I need to respond to my own pain in a certain way. Please bear with me!

      Let me just address one part of your story:
      “Perhaps it’s in me because my family (my mother and her side) paid dearly for being Jewish in Nazi Germany, or that the Jewish people in general were persecuted for millennium”

      The roots of your personal attachment to Judaism is perfectly understandable given what you explained above and what happened with your mother’s family (in italics).

      Did you know that, until about three weeks ago all of my mother’s cousins thought I was either dead or I simply didn’t exist? Can you imagine the awkwardness of my calling a total stranger in North Dakota and explaining to them my mother was their first cousin?

      This is why I was so angry about the extremely limited informational visibility of fatal traffic collisions vs. murder. I was completely torn apart from my own mothers’ cousins and we didn’t even know it for decades.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        I’m a bit consumed with thinking about that right now. Sorry. Everything you said in your post was reasonable in the contemporary sense.

      • Daniel says:

        It’s quite something to find these relatives. For several years now I’m looking for any remnants of my Grandfather’s family on my mother’s side. Haven’t found any yet. It’s all part of a need to learn more about my mother and her background. I’ve actually made considerable progress and found out things that were not known to us. Unfortunately my mother isn’t alive to share it.

        And I wonder, after you find the relatives, what do you say to them?

    • Jack W says:

      Daniel: I would like to tell my story (at this point of the discussion) and maybe set some light on where I stand. When I was very young 6, 7, 8, or so I thought “Jew” was a verb and would refer to another guy as having “jewed” me out of my marbles if I felt he cheated me. I dunno where I got that idea from, but suspect from the other kids. Then some years later at school we were reading for English literature Shakespeare’s “Merchant of Venice” and the teacher ask the class to write a synopsis on Shylock. Don’t remember all of what I wrote, but I ended up suggesting that “Shylock was, in-fact, a typical Jew”. The teacher the very next day came bouncing into the classroom and said “Waddington: stand on your seat … no stand on your desk” I promptly did so and she started to walk round me quoting Shylock soliloquy after he had been told that his bond did not permit one drop of blood. The speech started with Shylock saying “Hath not a Jew eyes, dimensions senses, affections, that other men have; if you prick him does he not bleed …….” the rest I don’t remember. I felt so humiliated by the teacher who by the way was not Jewish and actually liked me. I told my parents that night about that experience and my mother (normally a very compassionate person) came back with “Don’t worry; she’s probably got a Jewish boy friend”. What my mother told me did not ‘jive’ with me and I knew there was something amiss in her trying to pacify me.

      Then during my conscripted Army days in 1950 my religious group was free chuch which included Jews. I thought nothing of it … then one day during leave I was on Brighton Beach and met this guy, a little older than me who made a pass and we subsequently became good friends. But for the fact that he had an accent and I asked where he was from, I would not have known that he was a German Jew. He too had served in the British army. Stating that he had had to flee Germany in the early thirties due to the Nazi krystal nacht. Other than my inquiry I doubt he would have ever told me he was Jewish, as he was certainly secular. He became my mentor and for me I had never met such a brilliant thinker in all my life.

      However, in the mid 50’s I secured a job as a clerk in Covent Garden market and the owner of the company was Jewish and made a great show of it and did not like the guy at all and felt he was just a money grabber, and was not very nice to his employees.. I hated him and after some months left the company and got another job.

      Some years later I had two American Jewish females who were my friends and one day they started a conversation between themselves for which I was only a spectator but very interested in their conversation. One of them started by asking (I know not why) “What is all this about being Jewish?” I was enraptured by their conversation that suggested to me that the only thing that made both of them culturally Jewish was that their mothers were Jewish. I didn’t and don’t to this day feel they had any regrets about their Jewishness … merely thinking aloud about ‘what it was all about’. That made me reflect on what I then considered to be my culture. “What’s it all about??? … and came to conclusion that it had little or no significance other than I had a British accent and most know where I am from. Beginning … End. Like my gayness it is a minor part of me. I see little value (other than some semblance of ego as to why anyone prides themselves in their culture). It does not serve any other purpose, as I see it.

      Jack

      • Daniel says:

        Thanks Jack for that. I read once about a guy saying to his friend, “I’m proud to be a Jew”, “Why are you proud?” his friend asked him. “Because if I weren’t proud I’d still be a Jew”.

        This whole nationality thing is more important to some than to others, but I guess it has to do with belonging to something which is bigger that yourself. Also, we all need a sense of identity, of who we are, and nationality supplies some of that.

        You know, my mother’s family lived in Berlin, were communists, didn’t feel Jewish but German, and it was Hitler who reminded them their Judaism, as the Nazis has a race ideology and later legislation that identified Jews according to their lineage and not their identification. So, you could be a proud German, feel German, fight for Germany in the First World War, but still identified by the state as of a non-German, inferior race to be excluded first from German life and later from life.

        • Jack W says:

          Daniel: Being anything:- nationality, culture, sexual orientation, religious affiliation is something ‘we take’ on to ourselves. The one exceptions are the color of ones skin and ones gender. It is my feeling and I do feel it’s Janov’s also, that the need to belong is borne out of not “belonging” in womb-life, infant-hood and early childhood.

          If I took away a message from the two women freinds, listening to their conversation:- was that the “being” something or othee was actually quite arbitary. other than gender and skin color, but even in this area it’s not as hard and fast as initially seems. The trasgender movement perhaps has demonstated that clearly and the skin color is not as ‘black and white’ either (pun definately intended) We’re all mongrel one way or another.

          One last pont:- My father was for ever insisting that I be proud to be British, English, Lacastrian and on and on. I asked my father if that meant that another nationalities should be ashamed, to which he replied after a pause “No! they too can be proud of their county” to which I replied “What’s the point?”

          I know of two Jewish guys that have repudiated their Judasim. I consider that their prerogative. If t’were possible I would repudiate my British/English ness. But it’s imnpossible to obtain an international passport. Bernard Shaw tried diligently to create such a passport. Pity he didn’t suceed.

          Jack

  79. Cain, Abel, and Manabove at it again: “Gaza baby delivered from dying mother”. “Man dies after lightning strikes 14 in California” “Shiite militia display jihadist bodies in Iraq city” Gee, thanks Yeshual/jaweh/allah/budallah/. a real masterpiece of work you done did. Can’t wait to see the next one. “What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason, how infinite in majesty”–ahh something like that, from Hair, I think…Also. DEVO: “IT’S A BEAUTIFUL WORLD WE LIVE IN
    A SWEET ROMANTIC PLACE
    BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE
    THE WAY THEY SHOW THEY CARE
    MAKES ME WANT TO SAY
    IT’S A BEAUTIFUL WORLD”
    ha ha ha ha ha

  80. Speaking of Hair, now that I remember, when I was 17, I took a girl to see the live show at the Aquarius Theatre In LA. 1968 or so. I was obsessed with this girl, and she was happy to have me take her to Doors concerts and this Hair thing. Little did I know she had a boyfriend, and even if I wasn’t such a piece of garbage, I would not have had a chance with her anyways. I guess I was happy to talk to her about my crazy grandmother, while driving to LA from Long Beach. Anyway, I have no point, I guess people were talking about chemistry and love in group, I wanted to say something about it, but I didn’t. I cried and screamed about being thrown into a black hole of aloneness when i was torn away from my mom at age 11 months. I was also triggered by something someone said about their child, which reminded me of when my children were young, and how that time is now gone, and also of how hard it was to raise my kids during that time.
    John Lennon;
    You gotta eat, you gotta drink
    You gotta feel something, you gotta worry
    But it’s hard, you know it’s hard
    Sometime I feel like going down

  81. Patrick says:

    Recently I read a book about the history of the Mormans and how they started out in New York State but were ‘persecuted’ there and moved then to Ohio I think and were not treated properly there so had to go to Missouri and were treated worse there and then moved to Illinois and that was so bad they decided there was only one solution for all this…………………to get/make their OWN state so they moved to the virtually empty spaces of Utah and set up there.

    And to me at least it has such an echo of the Jewish problem and one other thing. The Mormans insisted on being ‘separate’ or a ‘people within a people’ and to take the good things of living in a society but not really being a part of the society. So when Daniel casually mentions how ‘persecuted’ the Jews were, to me it’s not as simple as that. That is literally one side of the story for every action there is a reaction blah blah blah. But this kind of one sided ‘history’ of persecution to me is not really history more ‘crayon book history’.

    And not to get too ‘primal’ about it my family where we grew up kind of took that approach, they were ‘different’ or ‘better’ or in some ‘other realm’ than the neighbors and guess what we were not liked for that. And that kind of history then goes on and on, gets passed on through generations. Even myself now I come back here and people kind of look and me and think (I think) he always set himself apart he is STILL setting himself apart. In my mind I am not but I also feel like a victim of history I am just a cell in a much larger ‘body’

    But what I find destructive now about the “Jewish project” is it seems to be STILL based on they are different, they are special, their lives and survival are worth so much MORE than say a lowly Palestinian. And also that seems so self defeating and really just a guarantee of more hatred and blowback in the future. If you look at those photos of Gaza (and for a moment stop talking about the ‘holocaust’) see the holocaust you are perpretrating and know it WILL come back to haunt you in some way.

    I admit none of this is easy at all……………………..in my own case I feel I sort of have to ‘die out’ and leave no children (which I don’t have) and just let this fire burn out. They are no good answers left or no other manouvers to do.

  82. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Some months ago…

    I refused to watch the 9-hour documentary Shoah because I felt not enough attention was being paid to the deadly dangers of auto collisions (and let’s keep in mind this is killing a sizeable number of Jews as well). At the time I felt like a blog outcast…a petulant, rebellious child for not doing so.

    Patrick was in the thick of things and readily agreed to watch the entire 9-hour documentary at Daniel’s suggestion, yet in the end Patrick became the anti-Semite.

    I am not pointing fingers or picking on anyone when I write this, but rather I am impartially marveling at the strange turn of events..

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – beware ‘crooked thinking’ lol here. I watched that docu on Daniel’s suggestion and I really appreciated it and thought in many ways was a great movie. And I am glad I watched it I can see there is SOME reason for Jews to feel the way they do but in general it also feeds into this kind of endless paranoia, self pity, self justification which to me is not ‘healthy’ and almost just guarantees something else some other ‘holocaust’ will occur again. I am sure there are Palestianinas ‘dreaming’ of that very thing from time to time these days. So I reject the phrase I became an anti-semite, if you want you can say I was already an ‘anti-semite’ but as I said before I reject that name as just lazy (and crooked?) thinking and also manipulative in the extreme. But whatever people can say whatever they want…………………………..it’s a ‘free’ country (well not really but anyway)…………..

  83. Margaret says:

    Guru,
    that sounds like really something, that you got in touch with your mother’s cousins..

    must have triggered a lot of feelings, but it also seems such a positive thing to do.

    if you’d like to expand on it a bit, I would love to hear more about it.

    M.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Thanks a bunch for asking me about this, Margaret *cyberhugs*

      I’m just a bit busy for now but I might type out a short reply about this a little later (My contact has only been brief so far, anyway).

  84. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    why is it so difficult to simply leave it at admitting the problem starts when you talk in generalizing ways about large groups that are not at all homogeneous in the sense you refer to them?

    you keep detracting the discussion to what it is not about to start with.

    Daniel gave his own opinions on some matters which clearly show he does not match your general label of ‘the Jews’.

    he explicitly said you can say whatever, and he even agrees, as many of us do on a lot of issues, but just accept you have a problem with just that last generalizing negative judgement you seem to want to make for some reason.

    would you want to provoke in some way or another?

    UG, I just heard on tv every 30 seconds someone dies in some traffic accident on the road..

    gnna celebrate my brother’s birthday today with him and our mom..

    just got very frustrated when finally my ‘inscription’ for the course I am alrady studying for three months got ‘ accepted’ but still not quite, they recieved it now they say, but as now they see some attestation has not been renewed yet for 2014 I would need to pay double price unless I first deal with that..

    it is crazy how for this course I seem to keep running into walls over and over and over, this will be solved eventually but it drives me nuts..

    finally got some word of my statistics teacher he reserved some ‘time slots’ to work on our method so at least there is something positive there..

    had a nice afternoon with my friends yesterday, which in retturn made it easier for me to fall asleep without feeling a strong need for a painkilller, had lots of dreams, most of them not so pleasant, some of them better, and feel back on track again to just toss and turn and be patient until sleep does catch up with me, often sooner than expected..

    fear on the rise again, will have to live with it for the time being..

    M

  85. Margaret says:

    it was pretty intensive and took a lot of energy to take care of our mom but me and my brother again made a fine team so the whole day wet by nicely..

    him and me talk much more now about stuff that really matters, which is great.

    feel exhausted though, but satisfied.

    M. and cat

  86. Daniel says:

    Patrick, you say,

    … can you be serious that there is no ‘institutional racism ‘ in Israeli society………………..roads that Palestinians cannot be on etc etc. I know little of the specifics but I find it hard to even read about it it is so disgusting, so cruel and so based on ‘I am better and different than you’. You seem an intelligent man and yet you can sit there and ask me to ‘prove’ something you can easily find out for yourself (if you wanted to). From what I know Israel is a thoroughly ‘racist’ society…

    I’ve studied this subject in quite a lot of detail, reading both Arab and Israeli accounts. The point wasn’t to get the answers from you so I can learn them but to see if you actually studied the subject before making such bold accusations.

    The feeling is you take a detail from here or a rumor from there and fit it into an already established personal internal knowledge that the Jews or Israelis are foul people. So, you tend to disregard or twist any information that seems to contradict what you already think. You do save time and bother by simplifying it all, but the result sounds and feels bigoted and shallow.

    I too think Israel’s occupation of the west bank should end; that the control over another people corrupts Israeli society and hurts the Palestinians no end; that the transfer of Israeli civilian population into those territories beginning the 1970’s is unjust and immoral; that the strong trends in Israeli society and politics to annex or somehow keep the west bank puts Israel on a slippery slope toward either apartheid or the end of the Jewish state. And I could go on. But, is Israel currently a racist state? Absolutely not.

    I can explain and argue each of my points above, and when I criticize I take into account the claims of those who think differently on each point, and especially the reasoning behind their thoughts and actions.

    So, is Israel a racist state?
    Can Arabs in Israel vote and be elected? Yes, they can. They do and are. Can an employer not accept an Arab for a position because he’s Arab? Not unless he’s willing to risk his freedom because it’s illegal. Can a bus driver of physician refuse service to Arabs, or ask them to sit in the back of the bus or move to the end of the waiting list for a liver transplant? No, they can’t. Can a restaurant owner or club owner refuse entry to Arabs? Not by law they can’t. Can an Arab express any opinion, in speech or writing? Yes he can. Does the legal system ensures equality under the law? You bet. Is the judicial system controlled by government? No, it’s completely independent. Do Arabs have the right to organize? Yes they do, the civil society is filled with such organizations. Does an Arab have the freedom of travel? Yes he does.

    Is it fun being an Arab citizen in Israel? No, it isn’t. Too many times you’re a suspect and a security risk, your local councils are underfunded, your national narrative is not recognized enough and signs of your past communities have been steadily obliterated from the landscape, you’ve suffered to many land expropriations, and the list can go on.

    There are obvious power relations between the the Arab and Jewish community in Israel, and the Jewish side most certainly exercised its extra power over the Arab community.

    And by the way, the Palestinians have made terrible political mistakes themselves, and committed terrible acts of terror and injustice. Like I try to argue again and again the situation is extremely complex and the two sides are both right and wrong.

  87. Renee S. says:

    For those of you who are interested in both a thoughtful and emotionally grounded article, this was recently in the Toronto star: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/07/22/beautiful_dream_of_israel_has_become_a_nightmare.html. It was written by a Canadian doctor who has been very influenced by Janov’s theories and primal therapy.

  88. Renee S. says:

    Oops…..if the above link does not work, check it out here on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152120224342294&id=182983372293.

  89. Patrick says:

    Renee – thanks for posting that article I know of Gabor Mate I have even read one of his books “In the land of the hungry ghosts” about drug addiction. He is a very principled man and as you say has been influenced by Janov quite a lot. He could also quite legitimitly claim to be a ‘holocaust victim’ though apparantly the definition of that is very broad now. Basically any Jewish person who was alive in Europe or even North Africa during the war.

    As far as choruses of “hear, hear” I see that as more choruses of unknowing. Chorus of wilful blindness. Margaret you ask why I ‘generalize’ about groups…………………..well to me it is to help to ‘understand’ and often people who refuse to do that are basically ‘not seeing’. I am pretty sure when the NEXT war comes along and the pretext is some (bogus) ‘humanitarian’ problem most of the ‘hear hear’s’ will fall right in line and be fooled (willfully) yet again. I live here on a sheep farm and sheep act a lot like that. If you can get the leader or first one to do something they all follow along crying ‘bah bah’ or ‘hear hear’ it’s hard to tell the difference.

  90. Dear Mommy, I had an experience yesterday during group, in which I went back to age 11 months old. I was able to feel a tiny amount of the ANGST of being torn away from you and thrown into a black pit forever. Maybe some relief came from that experience. At least I could be 5% kinder (than I normally am) to my wife TONIGHT, in discussing why we argued heatedly for an hour yesterday about how she left me stranded after group by switching picking-me-up plans. Or maybe there is just something astrological happening to me today. I guess time will tell.
    I found some interesting Pit and Pendulum images to describe in better detail how i felt when i was thrown into the pit. I am not sure how the rest of you guys are pasting pictures in here; it is not working for me. I feel incredibly stupid by posting anything in this blog.
    http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608033963367139217&pid=15.1&P=0

    http://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A86.J3QlM9dTAkwA_8APxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsOXB2YTRjBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw–?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-ironsource-fullyhosted_003&va=inquisition+pit&hspart=ironsource&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003

  91. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    For Margaret & Daniel:
    I was going to get back to you about reuniting with my cousins, yet at the same time it….*sigh*…I am in the middle of a lot of very delicate intellectual work that demand almost completely Zen-like, monastic levels of attention. Where do I go with this?

    Lets just say talking a bit about what split me apart from the cousins and writing letters/sending photos was a good way to start.

    Even with the cousins I have to take things very slowly because I’m in the middle of what is delicate brain surgery for me right now (as mentioned above.)

    Sorry to cut it short; I do appreciate your wanting to discuss it further….but not at this time.

  92. Miguel says:

    Hi Renee S.
    Very nice to hear from you in the blog.
    Miguel

  93. THE Ultimate Guru says:
  94. Margaret says:

    Renee,
    just read the article, your first link worked fine, thanks!

    M.

  95. Miguel says:

    It is a war of wills and beliefs. In a war not everything is valid. But certainly what is not valid is to equate morally and ethically the sides that are facing in Gaza. Becasue in one side is terror and the other democracy, progress and freedom. In one barbarism and in another civilization. Daniel put it clear that.

    But again, and again we prefer to follow the politically correct, We let ourselves be fooled by the beliefs of political correctness. Not what is best or what it makes sense.

    Ideas as opiates with lyrics by Tears for fears.

    miguel

    • Phil says:

      Miguel, In this conflict it is not at all clear to me that one side is preferable to the other. A lot of it is just politics. I wonder what the average Palestinian and Israeli really thinks should happen. A lot of them might like to leave and live somewhere else is my guess. Phil

      • Jack W says:

        Phil I disagree with you here somewhat. Yes it’s policies from both, One that is repressing and the other that is being repressed. The solution (which I feel is for the repressors to negotiate with the repressed) … My take is, that this is not happening. The Israelis by their “spin” are trying to win the PR game, but as I see it they maybe winning the battle, but ultimately will lose the war. Sadly the repressed have no-where they can go … that’s part of the repression.

        As happened to me in childhood:- Daddy was a firm believer that if we were punished severely enough that there would be a change of behavior. Yes there was …. biut not what daddy hoped and inteded That; Primal Theory wise, is not what happens. Punishement NEVER did bring about what we thought it might. Hense neurosis perpetuates ad infinitum, and matters get severely out of hand … at the one extreme creating schizophrenia … at the other extreme a bad boy/girl.

        In the first instance we deem the schizophrenic a “terrorist” and that seemingly ends the justification matter … except that it doesnt’ The other extreme just produces “bad” people … that never includes ourselves.

        Israel will negotiate with anyone … except their percieved enemy. Any third party negotiator is by definition “biased”.

        Jack

    • Patrick says:

      I can hardly believe what I read here………………but (generalization) most primal people are politically clueless in my opinion of course. it is even ‘encouraged’ by the lop sided nature of the ‘theory’

      • Patrick says:

        Sorry if I was not clear, I was referring to Miguel’s post not Phil’s

        • Phil says:

          Patrick, politics is all a matter of opinion. People are well informed and have a well developed political consciousness when they agree with me. Otherwise, they need to be better educated and may need therapy. Phul

      • Jack W says:

        Of course: being unbelievable signifies “unreasonable”. Designating your adversary as being “clueless” does not make it so … it merely lets your readers see your feeling in the matter. Said another way:- Designating ones feelings as facts, goes no-where … health wise. Incidentally when and where did you become an authority on Primal Theory? Again: just another feeling … insufficiently expressed … IMO

        Jack

  96. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    what you said about most primal people being politically clueless does irritate me.
    first, how on earth would you know what our political views and opinions are, and even stronger than that, I htink this very blog shows a lot of us do care and are well informed and concerned.

    what makes you different and better I wonder???
    it is not because we don’t rant in the way you do, that we don’t care.

    what do you do more than we do I wonder, I don’t see you doing any practical volunteering work or humanitary work or even political demonstrating or other engagements, correct me if I am wrong.

    what the f.. makes you feel you can arrogantly insult the whole primal community like that and pretend to be way above us all for some incomprehensible reason??

    would it have made a difference if we would have cheered and gone along with your insults of ‘the Jews’?

    thought you were past the stage of needing to be boorish now, were does this attack come from?

    I am pissed I guess, these aren’t wise balanced words but hey, there is a limit to what is acceptable and this is so crazy and unreasonable I don’t care too much anymore about replying in a reasonable way either, it seems no use anyway.

    had to stop being a good girl anyway, smiley..

    M
    and then on top of things blaming ‘primal’ whatever for it, you really start sounding very out of touch with reality here.

    time you sort out some of the feelings that feed these crazy ideas Patrick, but of course you will put this into the basket of the big stupidity and conspiration of the primal brainwashed sheep..

    get a hold on yourself please, before you become psychotic or paranoid cause htis comes close to delusional.

    I am being so hard here because I feel bad about you going off into that crazy direction again, Patrick, blindly kicking around and insulting people without any grounded reasons.

  97. Miguel says:

    Phil

    Perhaps democracy in North America is not perfect, but it makes many things work.

    Have you ever wondered what has The United States of America made great in the rest of the world?

    What immigrants seeking when they came to the United States?
    Do you know that is the American dream?.

    Perhaps democracy in your country is not perfect, but the levels of freedom, of believing in a better world, tolerance, prosperity are not readily available in other countries.

    It is in many other countries probably they do not even know what freedom means . Freedom for what?

    Have you ever wondered why the United States of America do not get along with the other American states mosty behing El Rio Grande?

    All your neighbors are the same for you?

    Perhaps threre is not a right way to live either individually or as a society, but there are better ways to live if we consider parameters such as freedom, prosperity, tolerance for the beliefs of others, respect for the law, respect for human rights, absence of corruption, democracy, control those who have the power, press freedom, freedom of market. Equality tetween men and women, etc,

    Now where is Israel considering threse parameters, and where are the other people? Thousand of miles away.

    Miguel

    • Jack W says:

      Miguel: Much that I admire many of your comment I wish to take exception to this one. First off: many years ago in my 20’s I attended a lecture on Democracy. The lecturer was very eloquent and demonstrated to me that we humans had a great misconception of what “Democracy” is all about. Firstly the people in what is termed a Democracy do NOT RUN the society. Politicians who are liars enough, or truthful whilst campaigning, but the instance they are enthroned; do whatever they can to make sure they keep their cushy seat and pay packet … serving the public as a whole takes on a whole back seat. I have recently witnessed just such politicians working their political agendas and the main theme is they will litigate to the highest bidder for their future campaigns. So much for Democracy. The people are conned into giving them privileges we paeans will never attain.

      However, to see this in an historical perspective we need to go back many thousands of years and look at all forms of government. It serves only the privileged … whomever the privileged happen to be. The rest of us are merely pawns. Chess makes this very revealing

      Next:- “Freedom” There is only one form of freedom and that is the ‘freedom’ to feel and express that feeling. All else is a sham. The current “SYSTEM” does not allow this. There are police forces (yes they are in every sense of that word ‘a force’ forcing us to do the legislators will, who in turn are doing the will of the privileged few). So they create a force that will FORCE we paeans to do their bidding and if we don’t; then they have another institution to PUNISH us, called prisons. But then if too many of the people rebel then there is another institution with Guns, tanks, bombers, and now nukes:- the military … will subvert any uprising. They learned not to make the mistake of the Aristocrats of the French Revolution.

      The major problem is “Neurosis” that from early child-hood the big people forced us to do their bidding, and we’ve bought into that notion. They have the biggest stick. Sadly, other than a critical mass seeing this fallacy … we will in the sense of Patrick’s sheep on his home farm do what the shepherd demands. It’s a sort of compromise on life … que lastima.

      Jack.

    • Phil says:

      Miguel, Sometimes I wonder why immigrants do come here. So that they can live in very poor and violent urban areas similar to 3rd world countries? Here many people are fighting hard to maintain the right not to have healthcare. We are a country of strong individualist who reserve the right to go bankrupt from a severe illness. Those new immigrants learn the hard way that the streets aren’t paved with gold. There is prosperity but it is so unequally distributed that the American dream is a joke. I think the problems are severe. Phil Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 21:53:57 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • Patrick says:

        Phil that reminds me of a joke we have here. The Irishman goes to London to work because he is sick of being poor and it told the streets of London are paved with gold.

        He arrives on a Friday night and as he come out of the railway station and onto the street the first thing he sees is a 100 pound note coming towards him on the breeze. He looks and thinks to himself “nah that’s ok I will wait until Monday morning to start”

  98. Leslie says:

    Margaret,
    Today, you have written so much of how I have been feeling and have held back from writing. It is hard to do! -and you have been (and continue to be) so encouraging, kind and patient.

    Patrick, I am so fearful of your wrath – Your callous, cruel words that you expel so quickly and often.
    Targeting and generalizing only keeps you isolated and alienated. Dismissing people and groups of people exposes your fears. If only more of your energy and time could be directed there…

    You have shown your caring side and I still appreciate your concern for my brother during his wait for surgery etc. He is doing really well btw and I did want to let everyone on the blog know that.
    I just don’t want to be afraid of you anymore.

    This brings up my feelings about my dad and the way he kept himself so aloof because of his supposed intelligence, and superior take on how the world should be. Sadly, he did not cope with day to day living at all and we (his family) lived in fear and I grew up never feeling good enough.

    ox L.

  99. Patrick says:

    Well I see I have annoyed some people. Which I ‘understand’ I mean even as I am making that comment I am aware it is an ‘off the top of my head’ type remark. But I kind of believe in doing that not all the time but sometimes it feels good to just go whatever is on my mind not ‘think’ at all or try to put it better etc

    I guess I was shocked Miguel of all people saying things like the Israelis are the ‘civilized’ ones and the Palestinians the ‘barbarians’ or whatever. In a way he is correct though in that to my way of thinking the less ‘civilized’ we are usually the better we are. The Israelis represent the ‘tip of the spear’ of civilization and it is well named. The tip of aggression, violence and hatred of life itself. Each day bring new atrocities and it honestly really affects me, also in Ireland as I keep saying the propoganda is less total than in say the US or UK. People here have a visceral disgust with what is happening as I say partly because of their own history but also the ‘brain washing’ is less.

    To say primal people are ‘politically clueless’ is wrong, of course from my point of view MOST people at least in the more ‘developed’ world are politically clueless and primal people are a sub set of that. I suppose it’s just I would ‘expect’ more or something different from primal people but to be honest I think they are fairly typical of the population at large. But in a way I find that dissapointing but I am aware people could say I only want them to agree with me.

    I do feel we live in very ‘propoganda’ or ‘brain washing’ like times. It bothers me like yesterday the news is full of ‘sanctions’ against Russia which has done nothing that I can see as ‘wrong’ but the Israelis are now commiting ‘war crimes’ right out in the open on la la la see no evil , say no evil etc.Even all this talk about Israel is only ‘allowed’ right now because they are blatantly killing innocents and deliberatly so if during ‘normal’ times I even brought this up Margaret would REALLY think I had lost my marbles. But this is par for the course for them they do this every few years but are ALWAYS messing and being very cruel to their neighbors who actually have a ‘right’ to be there unlike them!! But Margaret I have to tell you no I feel very much like I have my ‘marbles’ for whatever that is worth.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Patrick: You haven’t annoyed me at all lately. I am strictly neutral on the whole
      Israel/Palestinian rigamarole.

      I do understand Leslie’s fear from my own past run-ins with you, but that was a long time ago for me.

      I noticed you said you are living on a sheep farm. Are you planning to stay in Ireland or are you coming back to L.A.? Or…??

      I could potentially envision you as a wizened old sheepherder with a long, flowing white beard and holding a curled cane while you post on the Primal blog. Seems like a far cry from a moving company CEO, but if it works, it works..

      • Patrick says:

        Promoting “Griffinism” lol…………………whatever that is lol…………

        • Patrick says:

          Guru – I just thought it could be called “The Institute for Crooked Thinking” and maybe you can be my first client. I am wondering what you are prepared to pay or do I have to pay you? lol Maybe that’s the first topic we could apply “Crooked Thinking” towards and see what comes up. Probably won’t be much worse than so called “Straight Thinking”. What do you ‘think’ (crookedly if you can but no need to get self conscious about it)

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Patrick:
            The problem I was dealing with was not crooked thinking, but word poverty…..complete & utter thoughtlessness. I counted the number of words devoted in news print to what happened to my mother:

            130 words.

            …..130 words for instant capital punishment of an innocent finance person…

            How many words were devoted across the country’s news outlets to those botched executions of convicted murderers? 500 million words? A billion words? 5 billion words?

            A more extreme example would be 9/11. 100 trillion words there, perhaps? Maybe even a quadrillion words as an aggregate of intelligence briefings, books, news articles, miscellaneous documents, etc.?

            (at 3,000 deaths that’s 333 billion words per capita)

            I feel sad for my younger self for doing some really stupid and reckless things not understanding this horridly abyssal problem, but there’s only so much I could do as an individual.

            I think Virginia Woolf discussed something about word poverty in a different context than what I explained above, but I have to get back to more work here…

            • THE Ultimate Guru says:

              ….That was just a fucking super dangerous situation for me. Reading Janov’s books made it more dangerous by orders of magnitude. Crying and primalling is “A-OK” in my book, but Art….went WAAAY too far in saying too many dangerously impulsive things that led me to some erroneously self-destructive conclusions.

              I like the crying though. It really helps.

  100. thomas verzar says:

    Hi All
    Just to talk about something else, besides Judaism, Griffinism etc, I decided, at the behest of my school friend of 54 years ago, to attend the 50th school reunion in Cluj-Napoca, Romania, where I originate from. This guy, Edi, is beyond belief. He is so nice to me, the way he talks to me, it brings me to tears every time we talk on the phone or Skype.
    He is arranging my train ticket from Budapest, Hungary, where he lives, to Cluj-Napoca. I am to stay with him in Hungary, and at the organiser of the reunion’s place, an other school mate in Cluj-Napoca. We will go to her weekend retreat the day after we arrive.
    I would’ve never guessed that I would ever end up in this situation in my life. Had they not search for me, it would’ve never occurred to me to look for them. That’s how demented I was, and still am.
    On an other note, I still haven’t recovered from my trip to Budapest and Los Angeles. I am constantly tired, worn down, and listless. I often cough and get an instant excruciating headache. I’ve taken medication for a cold in Hungary, for an allergy in Germany and Los Angeles. I don’t think(????) i am sick, but then why the fuck do I feel, still, like an invalid.
    Although I’ve been back in OZ 10 days, it is only today, that I was able to overcome my resentment of looking after myself, my affairs. Pay bills, contest fines, find a room heater trades person, etc.
    I get so ‘pissy’, disenchanted that I have to look after myself.
    So where the fuck does the feeling come from,hah? Mum!!!!!!!!!!!! You can’t stay in the grave. You haven’t finished your job yet. Get here, and do your job. TAKE CARE OF ME!!! Now!!! DON”T LEAVE ME HANGING THERE!!!!!
    DO YOU HEAR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Oh. It is so difficult to be an adult. It really sucks.
    Luckily for me, most people do not see the baby in an old man’s body.
    But, oh. They will be so nice to me at the school reunion. They sure know how to hurt ,me.
    So long for now, children of need and deprivation.
    Tom
    PS I am flying out on the 20th of August. Pray for me.

    • Larry says:

      It makes me feel good to see you here Tom. Sounds like important change is happening in your life. I’m glad for you.

  101. Miguel says:

    Jack:
    I agree with you that we live in a hierarchical society that benefits the rich and powerful.

    However since we had started the recent history of our Western civilization, not the human one, democracy, while maintaining the hierarchy ,offers a degree of freedom, tolerance, respect that never had not before known in our western culture.

    The United States marked a milestone in the defense of liberty and human rights.

    Democracy with its spirit of tolerance will allow the transition to lifestyles, more sustainable in the economic and human ways.

    I think that will not happen in a fast, but rather in a slow but inexorable way.

    The proof is the Primal community. We are an example of how things can change.

    Yes , we can.

    Here the poem of Manuel Machado

    Caminante no hay camino
    Se hace camino al andar

    Waker, there is no walking path
    The path is made by walking

    Miguel

  102. Miguel says:

    Phil

    Ideally, the best is that existedf many ways to live, not just the American way.

    As far as I know immigrants began going to the United states seeking economic, political and religious freedom.

    Life is not easy for anyone. All we have to earn a living, even plants.

    Immigrants go to the United states seeking prosperity and a quality of life that they do not have in their countries of origin. Of course you certainly have to start from scratch. From cero. The same holds if a Spanish emigrated to Germany. He will not have the best work from the beginning.

    Phil do not know why you complain so much of Israel and not want to see what is happening in Syria and the violation of human rights in other countries in the Middle East almost always committed by the same belief in the same direction.

    Miguel

    • Phil says:

      Miguel, Some of the nations with the worst human rights records in the Middle East have been supported and propped up by US policies. Also, Israel wouldn’t exist without US support. That’s how we spread democracy around the world. Actually I don’t usually spend much time on these topics and it might be time to move in to something else on the blog. Phil

      • thomas verzar says:

        Hi Phil
        “Miguel, Some of the nations with the worst human rights records in the Middle East have been supported and propped up by US policies. Also, Israel wouldn’t exist without US support. That’s how we spread democracy around the world. Actually I don’t usually spend much time on these topics and it might be time to move in to something else on the blog. Phil”
        I take exception to your statement above.
        You imply in your first sentence that US supports countries in the Middle East with the worst human rights record. And then you go on to say that Israel wouldn’t exist without US support. One could easily deduce that Israel is also a nation with the worst human rights record. Which we all know it not to be true. Israel has always survived and will in the future, with or without US support.
        For a small country the size of New Jersey, it has a GDP of over US$290 billion in 2013. The support it gets from US therefore is less than 1% of it’s GDP.
        So before you take a live on the subject, get your facts straight. Do not use innuendo. It creates easily a false impression, and I am sure that’s not what you intended.

        Tom

        • Phil says:

          Tom, I wasn’t really equating Israel with other countries in the Middle East on human rights. But what I have said in general does reflect my opinion on all of this. A lot of people I interact with seem to think the same way. It is good to hear what you say on it. It does have an impact. I am taking it into consideration and will study it further. Phil

  103. Miguel says:

    Tom,

    I will pray for you to gett safe to Australia

    You’re a real man.

    Your feelings for your mother touch me.

    miguel

  104. Patrick says:

    I understand people are tired of the topic so this is my last (for now) say on this. Multiply this episode by how many more that are never discoverd and we begin to see the scale of atrocity and de-humanization. Also I prefer to talk about real present day ‘holocausts’ rather than constantly replaying history

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

  105. Daniel says:

    Patrick, you say,

    ..Israelis are now commiting ‘war crimes’ right out in the open

    I don’t know if Israelis are committing war crimes right now or not, and neither do you. Did you ever bother to look at what War Crimes are, beyond what you see on the TV? I don’t mean the obvious, but what are the rules when, for example, there’s a legitimate military target with civilians around, what is permitted in this case and what isn’t? Or, when the entrance to a military tunnel from which guerilla warfare is being conducted is under a clinic, or a mosque, or a home, or a school, or when these are used to store weapons – what then? When an enemy refuses to meet you in a battlefield outside the inhabited areas and builds its entire war infrastructure within the civilian terrain, what can the other side do? How to conduct the so-called Military Operations in Urban Terrain or Close Quarters Battle?

    The information is readily available (you can start here, have you looked at it before being so sure?

    I’m sure the allegations will be investigated after the war – Israel always is – and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you in protest and condemnation and demand for accountability if war crimes have been committed by the Israelis.

    But wait, in the meantime we do know that firing rockets deliberately into civilian areas outside the battlefield is a war crime, and such crimes have been knowingly and openly perpetrated by the Hamas regime in Gaza thousands of times over years and years. Will you stand shoulder to shoulder with me and demand accountability too?

    I know that you,

    .. get tired of all this pussy footing around about ‘both sides’ blah blah blah, what the Israelis are doing is horrible disgusting, cruel, devious …

    And you’re right, why bother with all this complicated blah blah blah. It is tiring, even to someone politically conversant and mindful such as you (unlike lesser primal people). But then there are times you courageously rise to the occasion and overcome your fatigue,

    … when Daniel casually mentions how ‘persecuted’ the Jews were, to me it’s not as simple as that. That is literally one side of the story for every action there is a reaction blah blah blah. But this kind of one sided ‘history’ of persecution to me is not really history more ‘crayon book history’.

    Seems when it comes to Jews your blah blah blahs can do some very fancy gymnastics.

    • Daniel says:

      But this is not what I wanted to write to you about. Since it was already a long comment I’ll do that in another one.

      BTW, I hope you saw, in the 2004 Guardian link you supplied us, that the man in question was charged in a court of law. Did anyone on the other side was charged with anything?

      • Patrick says:

        Daniel – even as i was sending that I pictured SOMEONE bringing up that point. And it is a point but a very weak one I feel. The US brings up the same ‘defense’ so some soldier goes totally nutso and wipes out a whole village and see how ‘civilized’ we are we brought him up on charges. This I find very weak and in this instance if I am not mistaken it was on ‘lessor’ charges like not handling his gun properly. But that is not important to me the BIGGER PICTURE is the Israelis and the US have ‘no business’ being there and putting soldiers in these kinds of situations to begin with. And I am sure you would admit for every one up on ‘charges’ there are many atrocities that never see the light of day

  106. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Daniel: If you really believe Patrick is so wrong, why not just give up the struggle and let him continue to be wrong?

    Look at me, for instance. I gave up struggling with you about the traffic collisions vs. murder issue a long time ago. I just felt the dark sensation that some people will always be obstinate to what I am talking about for a lifetime and I try to let it go…

    • Daniel says:

      Because there is a difference. The debate with you made me interested, made me think of things anew, and it did that without being provocative or bigoted or hateful. It was the way civilized people talk about things, even if they don’t agree about them, even if spirits flare up. This is a far cry from someone who’s out to get my people, spreading hateful lies and innuendos in the process.

      One of the reasons the State of Israel is so dear to Jews the world over is that through it we’re no more that people who just has to suffer the pogroms and persecutions, or pay a special tax just to be left alive, or run defenselessly into the killing pit or the gas chamber. We will take it no more. We will defend ourselves. We will confront our enemies and those who wish to abolish us head on.

      And then again – you’re also right in that I actually think Patrick’s hate is in a way a loving one, that he’s just out to pick a fight (and I and others oblige). I’m sure it makes him feel alive much more than any neutral stand. That was the thing I actually set out to write yesterday but then the comment got too long.

      • Patrick says:

        Daniel – that’s a little too ‘psycho-analytic’ for me. I mean if I examine myself there is truth in what you are saying but to ‘reduce’ all kind of ‘real world’ conflicts to a kind of psychological shadow world is well…….. the ‘limitations’ of psycho-analytic thinking in my humble opinion. Like anything it CAN be overdone.

  107. Margaret says:

    just reread what I wrote yesterday, fearing I would be embarassed about myself but in fact I am not, still sounded ok, even while I had not reread it as I almost never do, I don’t feel like taking back any of my words.

    and hi Leslie, nice to hear you again and so nice your brother is ok!

    Phil, it was so good getting to know you better at the retreat, you are such a smart and nice person, and your comments make me smile as you need very few words to hit the nail on the head.

    M.

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, Thank you for what you say here, I enjoyed spending time with you at the retreat and rooting for the Belgium soccer team. You have a wonderful presence here on the blog. The news for me is that my wife is now in Spain since last Sunday. Although my son is here with me, a lot of feelings related to her being gone have come up , as expected. Last evening I had some very deep crying and connected it strongly with the loss of my mother, better than previously. So I feel like that is good progress. There are two more weeks before we will also be travelling to Spain. Phil Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:16:45 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  108. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    you assume too easily you know what people think, me in this case.

    it is not your ideas that are questioned, it is the way you frase then.

    even while my own ideas might come close to yours, which they often do actually, the way you ventilate and express then for me is not right, for example if you would simply have stated ‘I feel mot
    st primal pr
    eople are clue
    eless’ it would have made a difference, as then you would be talking about your feelings and not making dismissive judgments about anyone.

    if you’d state you need to ventilate before you take off on a whole community like ‘the Jews’, and make it clear you really mean the people that are responsible for the cruel attacks, that would help too

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I take your points but one thing…….this business about always saying ‘I feel’ before something, first off I sometimes think OF COURSE what else would it be. Why is in necessary to say it all the time. Also that can get into that kind of ‘posing’ like I am sensitive blah blah blah, also it gives an ‘out’ for whatever the person is saying. So I see your point it is ‘better’ to say I feel Zionism is a rotten trick played on the whole world than Zionism is a rotten trick played on the whole world. One is ‘just my feeling’ (how convenient that can be!) the other is I am saying this is ‘reality’ (that can be ‘inconvenient’ later)

      I got into ‘trouble’ at both the retreats I was at about that kind of thing. But I find it frustrating a lot like there is some damn ‘formula’ or ‘form’ to check and it seems the opposite of spontaneity. And I see Vicki (for example) there checking off the boxes, yes there , no there, did that ‘right’ did that ‘wrong’ and it’s like what’s the point of ANY of this………..

      • Jack W says:

        The point is:- YOUR HEALTH …your mental health that is.

        In expressing ones feeling your can “act it out” … mentally unhealthy … OR, you can express it knowing it is your feeling … a la Primal Therapy … instead of assuming in your head that it is a fact.

        It is little wonder that you got into ‘trouble’ at both retreats. You seem NOT to get it. It’s all feelings. That’s life.

        Jack

      • thomas verzar says:

        Hi Patrick
        Margaret is right. You do have trouble with your mouth. It runs away with you, blaspheming the righteous, the Jews. Where do you get off saying “So I see your point it is ‘better’ to say I feel Zionism is a rotten trick played on the whole world than Zionism is a rotten trick played on the whole world. “? Do you know what the fuck you are talking about? Do you have a clue what Zionism is about?
        You are rude and sneaky. If you keep insisting making these wild statements, you live yourself open to some serious allegations.
        As Margaret and almost everyone else put to you on this blog, look for the underlying feeling. Stop being stupid about it. If you want to have our attention, to which you are entitled to, then ask for it. Beg for it. It is time to piggy back on your intellect and start showing us what REALLY hurts you. What REALLY makes you angry.
        Don’t be obtuse. You deserve more than that, to yourself after what you’ve gone through.
        Tom

  109. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    it is good to hear you are aware of it when you ‘talk off the top of your head’ as you call it.

    I agree it can be useful to do so on occasion.

    I also htink it might help you to make a lot of progress if you try it differently .

    it might bring up other levels of grief and pain but also permit you to keep growing and keep getting along better and better with most others, as you have a lot of qualities that remain unnoticed because of all that old anger.

    imho

    M

  110. Margaret says:

    Tom,
    so nice to hear you will be going to Hungaria and Roumenia in august.
    I look forward to hear about that trip!

    you are very good at doing so much despite the hard feelings you have to tolerate all the time, it is inspiring.

    M.

  111. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    This has been a very tough, desultory evening for me and I might as well spend some time here on the blog as a personal release…

    I’ve given up hope of getting any work done tonight, so I am going to address this post to Patrick somewhat for the benefit of Leslie & Margaret, too:

    Most of us like your charming side, Patrick. You’re a great guy in a lot of areas, but I’m sure you’re well aware of how a lot of people have mentioned that when you get angry you will hurl some scathing insults (cruel, callous words as Leslie put it).

    From my experiences and intuition, I have noticed when you feel “miffed” at someone about something you express your anger in a subdued, diplomatic fashion….up to a point. It’s almost like a “point demerit” system with you in a way (from what I can see). If I make a statement that rubs you the wrong way the infraction counts for…say…5 points, for example.

    Once the “point demerit” meter reaches 100 points with you (with someone having rubbed you the wrong way with enough subtle slights and stinging innuendos), you will then explode with boiling outrage and that’s where the hurtful insults seem to come out in all their brilliantly destructive forms.

    The powder keg gets slowly hotter and hotter until critical mass is reached and *BOOM*!

    I feel like I have gotten to know you well enough to where I can occasionally sense where you feel slighted about what I said and yet you will diplomatically hold it in even though I have earned a few demerit points with you and the internal pressure is slowly rising

    I know you’re not asking for my advice at all, but I do wonder if…when you feel slighted in any way, even a very small way it would be a good idea to immediately express this very slight assault to your character so that the powder keg stays dry and the demerit point scores don’t build to a high enough level for an insult-filled explosion?

    I’m not even going to say what you are doing is wrong. To me, it’s just the way you seem to operate with your own anger, and that’s OK! I have just become a bit more sensitive to when I might be rubbing you the wrong way in subtle, imperceptible areas more than I used to.

    OK, the end…

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Example: Like….When I was kidding earlier about your assuming a new identity as a wizened shepherd with a curled cane and long white beard you responded with:

      “Promoting “Griffinism” lol…………………whatever that is lol…………”

      I could just feel that I earned 5-8 quiet demerit points with you for that even though nothing was directly said right then and there.

    • Leslie says:

      What a good friend you are Guru! – really helpful!!
      Isn’t that so often the case too – that we all need help!, and what a relief it can be to realize it is ok – and in fact better to recognize that…
      It is hard to be truly honest with friends. I need them and love them. When an argument takes place however, it is so hard to completely clear…
      With B. – whom I have had the worst arguments ever with – they truly get erased. Even a somewhat recent fight last Feb/Mar? that felt so critical, is hard for me to recall now. I remember how bad it felt at the time, but it would take so much brain power to get all the details again – and I don’t really want/need to…
      After lots of crap, time, talking etc. we work our way back together… In fact, now I remember just how incredible the outcome of each of us being able to find our links to the past – ugh – yet again 🙂 after sorting thru much miscommunication etc.
      Funny too, in recent years I have this grading system of understanding break-ups… of “oh – this is when a celebrity couple would call it quits” (pretty low grade stuff),to “oh this is when people who have been married 25/35 years throw in the towel”, as that used to surprise me when they have made it that long… Anyway that is an aside.
      The fact is that it is so hard for me to truly clear arguments with friends – as those arguments/words I can still remember years later.
      Does sex cause amnesia? Perhaps.
      ox L.

      • Patrick says:

        Leslie – when you were writing there I’m thinking that’s ‘love’ when arguments can be overcome and forgotten……………

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Leslie:
        That was a really special post you wrote for me; thank you lots for that!
        I am envious of what a beautiful relationship you & Barry seem to have; at least you both know that when things are very tough, gritty, and you have hard arguments you are in the good times and bad times together as a team and you know there is a light at the end of the tunnel because of you seem to be able to trace it back to something in the past for yourselves.

        How can love possibly get much deeper when you both go through the roughest parts of the relationship there is a deep inner certainty you will both still be there for each other no matter how tumultuous it gets in the present moment?

        God, I’m so jealous of that. Congratulations, you made it!

        One last metaphor I can think of about arguments that are forgotten:
        They are simply rowing your boat down the stream of marriage and bumping the hull against a rock sticking out of the water. The bump becomes forgotten a mile down the river….just another rock in the stream…

  112. Patrick says:

    Guru – you have actually said some VERY perceptive things there. I have thought about my ‘explosions’ and as to WHY………and actually it comes from ‘weakness’ weakness in the sense of the inability to deal with things as the arrive or happen (as you say). So things build up, I feel slighted, I feel taken for granted, I feel something is unfair, I feel ‘used’ and then especially of course if that person is ‘important’ in some way in my life again as you say BOOM, the top of whatever the name of that mountain in Indonesia goes off and darkens the skies for a few years.

    And it has that effect sometimes unfortunatly. Inside I may feel ‘generous’ or seeing things from the other person’s point of view but there is a limit………and then it all kind of goes backwards and I just see my OWN point of view and f… them kind of thing. Also what you say about ‘pressure building’ is very apt. Sometimes I find if I am in a ‘stressful’ situation and I am counseling myself ‘above all stay calm’ for example that can make things WORSE, like it subtly adds to the ‘pressure’ enough to be the straw that broke the camel etc.

    Recently my brother was talking about my Mom who just died and he said when in one of her ‘rages’ she had no idea or care for what damage it would do to HERSELF later, she just didn’t care what damage it would do to her ‘strategic’ interests in the long run. As I have often kind of ‘prided’ myself in NOT being like my Mom but at that moment he said that I thought ‘damn he could be talking about me’ It stuck me how buried and deep some of these kind of things are.

    As far as your example of the shepard with a white cane………………nah that honestly does not get you a ‘demerit’ well maybe a point but NOT 5 or more, I see it more as your very nice and subtle humor and how you can change the trajectory of things. I like that in you I more burrow in and dig in for the long haul before I go BOOM I suppose. That’s yet another reason I relate to the likes of Hamas they are being abused, tortured alive but they keep SOMETHING inside, something that can go ‘off’ one day often sadly to their own great cost. Being a ‘suicide bomber’ is not an easy life (trust me). I am speaking totally metaphorically I don’t want anyone sending this to Homeland Security I know how ‘connected’ some people are lol………….

  113. Patrick says:

    OK now that I have finished ‘answering my mail’ here is a song that is big here. Sinead O’ Connor is of course kind of our ‘patron saint’ but I like this. The words are interesting and (I feel) see I am ‘mastering’ this has some relevance to ‘primal’ ….the church that hurts

  114. Margaret says:

    yeah!! going off to the seaside next week for four days with my best friends again like I did last year!

    idea triggered fear at first, but she came by and helped me all morning with some peperwork for the university and for my lost luggage claim etc, and we talked about the seaside and my fears and now I feel really ready to go!

    feel a bit bad to leave my cat again but will leave on monday and be back on thursday already so is not too bad, will have all year to make up to my cat..

    so nice to have friends like that, so incredibly reassuring and nice.

    she needs to have a piece of her knee replaced in september, and I definitly will do my best to support her then and visit her in the hospital etc..

    she and her husband are smart, nice and funny, and caring so it will be a great stay..

    will have to reread last few posts before forming a response, but guru, you seem to have a good way of communicating there..

    M.

    • Leslie says:

      Yes, so glad you are going again Margaret! I immediately remembered the beautiful description you gave last summer of your friends being on either side of you, as you 3 jumped over the ocean’s waves …so lovely. And then the quiet times you spent together too. All good isn’t it!
      I get anxious as well about things as they approach… Going to LA can feel so great until about 1-2 weeks before – when flying, LA, faring well at the Retreat etc. loom heavily. It is only the years of knowledge of knowing how everything feels fine once there that helps, just a little. And then I get there and the whole experience unfolds and feels safe and so great.
      So good for you – with your last trip having the added huge obstacle of lost luggage that you are ready to jump out and away again.
      Relax, savour and have fun!
      ox L.

  115. Margaret says:

    my girlfriend, when she said she understood getting out of my confort zone by going with them to the seaside triggered some anxiety, worded it even clearer than I could have done so up to that point..

    she said it must of course be scary to make myself completely dependent for days in a row..

    in my case that is very true of course, and specially the idea triggers fear, fear of how I might end up feeling, so fear of my own pain, being confronted with my disability and its limitations..

    luckily I remember how last year I had a really great time all along.

    but it shows how much empathy she has for my situation, and that feels very nice and safe.

    M.

  116. Margaret says:

    p.s. I think I might say ‘I feel you are an asshole’ or ‘I feel you behave like an asshole to me’ or ‘I feel..’ whatever would come up in my mind, in the cases part of me knows there is some misuderstanding going on, and my rational mind tells me this person isn’t really that big an asshole, I merely feel hurt by his behaviour and don’t understand it and feel very angry.

    but I entirely agree that when things happen in the spur of the moment it is always better to be direct and spontaneous even if you say things you might have to come back on to put them in perspective later on..

    but here on the blog that seems rarely to have to be the case, this is a perfect medium to practice some ‘looking inwards’ before choosing the words.

    no scores here Patrick, we all learn continuously and all of us will keep making ‘mistakes’ which is the best way towards making improvements.

    i am sure you know what I mean with the ‘I feel’ thing, it is easy to ridicule anything at all, but you are smarter than that, when you feel like it, smiley..

    M

    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: I’d like to add some of the ways you were hinting at that I have found useful to me … in order to let people know that it’s my “feeling” or “opinion”, rather than having to constantly say “I feel …..”.

      My list would include:- “I like …”, “I don’t like …”, “I gather…”, I assume…”. “It seems to me …”, “It pisses me off …”, “That hurts me when …. “, “According to …”, “That’s not the way I see it ….”, ” That story/report got under my skin”. “I don’t see it from that perspective”. etc. etc.

      The problem … as I see it … is that amusing a spontaneity we are apt to do what I call “the blame game” especially with anger Blaming the other person for my/ones anger. I learned early in my therapy to OWN all my feelings … especially my angers. Finally it is not necessary to always analyse why we feel the way we do … but to respond from within my feeling, letting MY feeling express myself the way I did as a child … simply, naturally and with that ‘child-like’ spontaneity.

      Jack

  117. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    how was te camping trip with your son?

    Patrick,
    sounds more like vulnerability than like weakness.

    sounds like you think of specific events where you have felt that way and felt very hurt.

    or scared to be hurt and therefor lashing out?

    not a capital crime, you seem to be making a lot of connections there.

    my own top has blown off a number of times and in a way it does feel great while it happens, doesn’t it?

    but of course only when useful connections are made afterwards otherwise like your brother mentioned about your mom there remain heaps of damage for a long long time as you must know all too well.

    glad you are still writing here on the blog.

    heard several times on the news so far that even UN workers admitted weapons were hidden by Hammas in schools and hospitals.

    still before you go off, I do not see that as a free pass to just shoot some rockets into these places.

    there must be other ways to solve such a situation by allowing civilians to move out first, or by entering the place and removing the threat without all this so-called ‘collateral damage’.

    they risk losing some soldiers in the process but well, they are soldiers after all, and not children and wounded people.

    it is a foul trick from Hammas though to use these places in their fight.

    i don’t want to start a new discussion, merely pointing out there never is a black and white situation.

    todaybI also heard on some program a lot of civilians, both Jewish and Arab, would be ok with the whole zone becoming one country under a shared government with equal rights for everyone.

    on both sides the major political parties are against that idea though, so it is a long way off at this point.

    sadly enough.

    M.

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, It’s wonderful that you will get to go to the shore again with your friends. I’m sure it will be a good time as before. Our camping trip went well, although it was a little hectic since it was the weekend following the retreat. The weather stayed nice and everyone had fun. It was a big reunion with four of my cousins and their families. There were a lot of little kids running around. Phil Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 22:06:41 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  118. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Margaret:
    You said the following to Patrick:
    “no scores here Patrick, we all learn continuously and all of us will keep making ‘mistakes’ which is the best way towards making improvements.

    I know you meant this for Patrick, but I wanted to say I’m tired of learning hard lessons. I’ve gathered too much bitter wisdom as it is.

    It’s time for me to live a life of idyllic, hedonistic debauchery and to forget about learning anything anymore.

    Just want to dive into nothing but the sweet nectar of a world that is otherwise hopelessly & completely corrupt to the very core

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      I went through something as a two-year old that makes many fully-grown adults want to cry “Uncle!” and file mega-sized 8-figure lawsuits (something which is hard to understand in pre-school)

      Yeah, I’ve had enough of the bitter lessons..

      • Jack W says:

        Guru: Your perpetual search for that nectar of an idilic life is a fornlorn persuite. Saying that “you’ve had enough of the bitter lessons” is the best way IMO of spending the rest of your life in “bitterness”.

        Life … according to Primal Theory as I read it is;- is ‘reeling’ from one feeling to the next and if expressed appropriately, will SELF RESOLVE.

        You seem to be in this endless search … dare I say it … from within your head. I don’t see my issues stemming from my ‘head trips’ … but then that’s me.

        Jack

  119. Patrick says:

    I wondered if ‘straight thinking’ can get SO straight it ‘flat lines’ like an EKG machine telling us no heart activity detected at all………..

  120. Patrick says:

    I think from now on in any discussions about Gaza etc I will use the word “Zionism”. To talk about “Jews” is just inviting problems and accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ and to say “Israelis” is too bloodless and harmless. It leaves out the fact that Israel is a construct of Jews worldwide and United States money, an artificial colonialist nightmare of a ‘country’

    Also I was thinking this whole ‘anti-semitic’ charge is so dishonest and manipulative. First off if someone says something ‘bad’ about say the Irish it would be like jumping immediatly to saying you are ‘anti-Irish’ sounds a bit absurd but cleverer than that you say ‘anti-semitic’ which of course has nothing to do with is but is sounds good and actually totally distracts from the real meaning. So anytime someone bad mouths Hamas can we say they are ‘anti-semitic’ I am so f….. sick of these kind of ‘mind games’ trouble is they are mind games that are causing death and misery to millions maybe hunderds of millions if you count them all.

    And actually people that ‘know’ about these things do use the word “Zionism” a lot. By the way Margaret I agree with you I think the only hope there is to have ONE country where everyone is equal and ‘ethnic origin’ is not an issue but Israel being an explicitly ‘racist’ state has a big problem with that. The so called 2 state solution in my opinion is rubbish, that’s like the blacks in South Africa has their own ‘states’ little ‘prison camps’ in the middle of nowhere. BTW as bad as South African ‘racism’ was they were not pounding these states with the most up to date weapons………………..can you imagine if South Africa had been behaving like that? What an outcry some people get upset when Israel is compared to South Africa, I think it is wrong also Israel is way WORSE than South Africa ever was.

  121. Patrick says:

    Sorry I said I would say no more about this issue. Here’s a ‘funny’ on it which I liked

  122. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Not to interrupt Patrick’s messages, but I simply wanted to say I feel a lot better now; thank you for your mails & helping me out of a horrific rut. I was feeling incredibly miserable earlier today and yesterday.
    This is just as well….not enough time to f*** around being buffeted by emotional storms. Really have to keep my eye on the ball with more work..
    Just thankful I’m somewhat back to normal..that is all…

  123. Patrick says:

    Leslie I was thinking some more about your post and this came into my mind…..that’s a good hint also Guru to quit now while I’m ahead? Last one this morning (promise)

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      It’s OK Patrick, I responded to Leslie’s post up above. Maybe she’ll like Pink’s song too, I don’t know…

      Just happy to be feeling pretty good again..

  124. Miguel says:

    In Gaza there is a war going on. Tragic, horrible. But it is not a genocide or extermination. Although the propaganda of those who hate Israel insists on the opposite.

    Israel could easily annihilate their enemies. But choose not to. His enemies will not hesitate to annihilate Israel though.

    The issue is why are are people who hate Israel and the United States so much?

    Barry B wouyld say : “say good question, Miguel”

    Miguel

    • Patrick says:

      I saw a sign at the demonstration in Dublin today. It said “Your 9/11 is our’s 24/7” and if you look at the pictures in Gaza it DOES look like NY after 9/11. My question is why are we so ‘sensitive’ to our own sufferings and it seems utterly insensitive to others. In Israel you can sit in a loung chair drinking and watching the bombing from a nearby hill. That is a society that has lost all sense of humanity and is doomed in the long run (maybe shorter than we might imagine)

  125. Margaret says:

    Guru,
    I know that feeling of being tired of bitter lessons all too well.

    i think it is ok to give yourself a break, to be nice to yourself.

    good to hear you feel better.

    Leslie,
    haha, that is funny, does sex cause amnesia?
    could use a little anmesia, haha!

    M

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Thank you for thinking of me, Margaret. I would always want to be nice to myself, but the feeling really bad was involuntary for me.
      On a “1” (suicidal despair) to “10” (endless wine, golden goblets, grapes, and orgasms) I am simply back up to a “6” from a “3” earlier.
      I’ve had some “8” days before, but 9’s and 10’s are the elusive holy grail to me.

  126. Margaret says:

    hi Larry,
    thanks for what you said.

    how is life up there now for you?

    M

  127. Daniel says:

    Patrick,
    I could have asked you, what you actually know about Zionism.
    I could have asked you, in what way exactly is Israel “an explicitly racist state”.
    I could have asked you what you know of the history of the region.
    I could have asked you, what you know of the one vs. two states solution.
    I could have asked you, how these solutions relate to the South African experience.
    I could have asked you, what you know of anti-Semitism in history.

    But, what’s the use. It’s so obvious you know nothing about these matters beyond some slogans you picked up off some crooked ideological shelf. You even admit to it by saying your use of the word Zionism is taken from “people that ‘know’ about these things”, meaning of course that you don’t. These are not the brain-children of a curious political and historical mind but the slurs of a bigoted one.

    And since you know next to nothing about the subjects about which you so vehemently and slanderously propagate, then I would suggest these ‘truths’ of yours apply not to the situations you wish to describe but to you personally:

    When you talk about Israel being “The tip of aggression, violence and hatred of life itself”, it is an aggressive, violent and hateful part of you you actually describe, a part I’m sure you’re familiar with.

    When you speak about “Israel being explicitly racist” you likewise give voice to racist part of your own, a part known only too well here on the blog.

    But, like I wrote in a previous comment I don’t think your hate is entirely a common wish to destroy. I know I need to explain that so two of your sentences will be a springboard for what I shall try to describe:

    I find the whole ‘anti-semitic’ charge mostly absurd and a very manipulative move to put any critics on the defensive so I sort of reject taking it seriously out of hand, I almost ‘welcome’ it in a way [my emphasis]

    And,

    Well I see I have annoyed some people… sometimes it feels good… [Again, my emphasis]

    Why would you welcome the charge of being anti-Semitic? And why does it feel good when you have annoyed some people? (and before you jump all over me for taking that “sometimes it feels good” a bit out of context, let me assure you I’ve noticed it).

    I obviously don’t know you well enough but at the risk of annoying you yet once again I would dare to speculate that you hate the other not in order to destroy it, but to do precisely the opposite – to conserve the other.

    Your hate is then nondestructive in intent but an acting-out of an unconscious form of love. It often looks as if you preserve relationships by sustaining a passionate negative investment in them. And when you can’t achieve that secretly desired state by hating, you try to accomplish it by being hateful and inspiring the other to hate you. It’s as if only through hating or being hateful can you compel the other into passionate relating.

    So, your hate is not the opposite of love, but rather a substitute for it. It’s the passion you’re after. That’s why you never dread retaliation by the other; on the contrary, you welcome it. What you fear is indifference, not being noticed or seen by the other.

    I can only guess that you generate passionate hate as an alternative to love, which you assume to be unavailable.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel I appreciate you have put in on my ‘behalf’. To me there are shards of truth in what you say like shafts of light from a particular angle reflect something sometimes………….but and I can see you saying “you would” I find it mostly unconvincing.

      As to what I ‘know’ I think you underestimate me there a bit. I have read quite a bit about the region Robert Fisk, Diana Johnstone, Tariq Ali and several others. I don’t know if these names mean anything to you and when I say I defer to those who ‘know something’ I of course am being realistic and not trying to put myself up as some ‘expert’ I clearly am not but the authors I mention what I notice is and I take this as a kind of test are of the type that confidently predicted the invasion of Iraq would be an all time disaster and well yes it was and IS at least the way I see it.

      I don’t want to go right down the line through your message and bore everybody. But really I find your logic a bit strained and tenditious (!)…….like this thing of me ‘welcoming’ being called an ‘anti-semite’ I said that out of pure frustration I don’t ‘like’ it but my attitude is for f… sake call me that stupid freaking name if you want to, if you DON’T want to think or be serious just f…. call me that then. A cheap move and NEVER addresses the real problem(s). Did you watch what Diudonne m’Bala m’Bala said in the little video I posted. He puts it better than me you tell me I don’t ‘study’ things I don’t you do so much either.

      And this thing of ‘it feels good’ IS out of context. Now I understand you are trying to ‘make a case’ or even a ‘psychological profile’ so you can do that………………but still I feel it IS strained, you obviously have a kind of heavy Freudian background, that’s OK of course but it can veer into looking for ‘deep meanings’ and ignoring what is in front of your eyes. Unless you don’t want to see what’s in front of your eyes…………..and that I can understand you are a ‘good’ person I can imagine it is very difficult to look at what Isreal is doing, very difficult indeed and ‘preserve’ you mind set and ways of thinking. So two can play the ‘psycho-analysing’ game also it is not only up to you. I prefer to LOOK and SEE the ‘obvious’

      And who of us are ‘experts’ really on anything. But I do have my common sense (thank God) and I am ‘allowed’ to notice certain things but I am not the only one to see a LOT of similarites between Israel and South Africa (though I do see Israel as worse) and some people are now trying to start campaigns of boycotts etc. I think they will have a much harder time taking down Zionism well first off they will be called ‘anti-semites’ and most people don’t ‘welcome’ that it is basically doom for any career I am lucky I suppose my days or ‘career’ are over and I CAN say these things. But let’s see what happens………I wonder how you ‘psycho-analyse’ the Israelis sitting on lounge chairs cheering on the bombing from a safe distance………………

      • Daniel says:

        Patrick, for every point I make I try to show how I got there, be it political, historical or psychological. I may of course be wrong in my interpretation of things but I show the way I got to my conclusion, whereas you have not. Even when making some very provocative accusations. This is why I put all those questions to you.

        I have no problem with the fact that you criticize the state of Israel and I have never accused you of being anti-Semitic until you started including the Jews as a whole in your angry and accusatory and conspiracy-style accusations. And even then I always showed my method of how I got to that specific conclusion. Nor have I used these to evade what you put in front of us here in the blog – as far as I can remember I’ve always tackled your ideas first, and resorted to ‘a bit of Freud’ only much later.

        I have watched the Diudonne video you posted. I completely disagree with almost everything he says, with the exception that I also think that Israel sometimes uses the name of the Holocaust in vain. Although I understand Israeli fears I am completely against it. Not every anti-Israeli stand is anti-Semitic and also the Holocaust doesn’t ‘belong’ to the state of Israel but to history in general. You must admit however that it was rather ironic to see Diudonne and his interviewer speak so much about freedom of speech on Iranian TV!! In general, I find that in most cases those who complain about being denied freedom of speech actually never shut their yapper.

        Robert Fisk, Diana Johnstone, and Tariq Ali are fine. I still think that if you’re really interested in the subject you would benefit from taking a look at the basic facts, and not just at the interpretations of them by others. Don’t take these commentators literally, find out for yourself. For example, if you check out what Zionism actually is you will first find a totally neutral definition – it was an attempt to solve the difficulties of Jews by political means through self-determination. Or in other language – we’re tired of being ruled by others. That’s it. Nothing more.

        Of course, after it became so successful all hell broke loose in the region, and regarding that hell I do not clear Israel of blame. But, nor do I clear the Arabs.

        Regarding your last point, I son’t like Israelis cheering the bombing but I can understand it. I can also understand the Palestinians cheering the launching of their rockets, celebrating the detonations of suicide bombers on Israeli buses, etc. When you’re hurting you really want to see the other side suffer too. It’s sickening but human.

        • Patrick says:

          Thanks Daniel – and it’s interesting what you say about Zionism. I read somewhere it got going almost in a similar way and time as “Irish Nationalism” when the Irish dreamed of ‘having their own country’. Both were active in the US around the same time, gathering money, influence etc. But there is a slight little problem there, if Jews dreamed of having their own country …..fine but the slight problem was there was people ALREADY living there and it’s really almost as simple and unfortunate as that. And really isn’t that what most of this mayhem is about.

          PS. I will always be ‘indebted’ to you for referring me to the Shoah movie, it did move and influence me if not for that I might be a worse ‘anti-semite’ lol……..

        • thomas verzar says:

          Daniel
          You are a breath of fresh air. You are intelligent and succinct with your analysis of all and sundry.
          I wish I met you and spent time with you. Who knows, maybe one day.
          Tom

      • thomas verzar says:

        Hi Patrick
        My friends and family members in Israel are sitting in their concrete bunkers at 15 seconds notice, many times a day. Their kids are totally traumatised by constant barrage of ‘friendly rockets’ from their neighbours.
        I understand from a ‘credible sources’, that the manufacture of rockets in Iraq and the financing from Qatar, and other lesser sovereign nations in the area, is still going according to plan.
        The main shakers and movers amongst them, feel somewhat left out, as they have to sit it out in their respective palaces and other resorts, somewhat removed from the ‘action’.
        Tom

  128. Daniel says:

    Sorry, it’s formatted wrong. I shall post it again below. Administrator – you can delete this one and leave the one below.

  129. Jack W says:

    Daniel: I have a couple of question to ask you after reading your response to Patrick a couple of times.

    First: Why do you think that Jews have been persecuted all down time? And do you feel Jews themselves have contributed to being hated/despised?. I earlier made the analogy between my own orientation of us (gays) being persecuted and often killed and until less than a century ago, were imprisoned for BEING homosexual. I did however from my own perspective of ‘the gay world’ try to state what it was about US GAYS collectively that precipated the hate, killing and imprisonment. Not only are we more than pompous as a group in a group setting … but I suspect that we were despised for what might have appeared as easy and uncomplicated sex life … that being:- no periods and pregnancies.

    This whole question, of Israel/Palestinan (so called) conflict, has it roots going back more than three millenium. If the Bible ( or Torah) is an authentic history of the past (and I have my own doubts about both), since to me both are a “self fulfilling proffecy”. Moses, supposedly suggesting that it was “the promised land” … was in the Primal context, stating his desire (a self fulfilling proffecy … from a politician). There has been no other justification that I am aware of.

    Also since Jews have been living in that part of the middle east for centuries … does not, to my way of thinking, justify the creation of a state for them (my take because of the British and American guilt that one of the European democracies … Hitler was voted into power .., they could settle the matter on some other guys land. If Palestime was to be made into a single state which could possibly bring about some redemption (but not I fear to all Zionist as I see it) then there might, for all those wishing for the destruction of Israel, have their wish fulfilled. Israel would be gone and then all the Semite Peoples could run an old state and potentially mostly live in peace. Least-ways as peaceful as any other state on the planet.

    To debate recent history over the matter doesn’t, for me, cut it.

    Jack

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:
      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Fiona: Try posting at the end of the page now; it worked for me.

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Maybe only Ultimate Gurus can post at the end of a page. They may teach you everything you know, but they will never teach you everything they know, haha…

          • Larry says:

            I will reverently post in your shadow that I may learn from your teaching of things mysterious to us.

            • Larry says:

              Ha ha… Thank you O Great Ultimate Guru. You are most kind. 🙂

              • Larry says:

                …and you teach in mysterious ways.

                Your humble disciple.

                • Jo says:

                  I’m persistently trying again⚓️

                  • Jo says:

                    Funnily enough, the whole debate about politics, between the boys, seems to state exactly why there are wars, and unsolvable issues between countries.
                    ⚓️

                    • Larry says:

                      L. and I had dinner at a restaurant last night, our first, maybe only ‘date’. Scared and anxious as it approached, the day before I cried feeling so small and alone.

                      I wasn’t myself. She seemed different. We ate and talked for three hours. I tried to contain self-doubt. I wasn’t sure any more what my feelings were for her. Something was missing. I kept looking for more connection that didn’t happen. Or did I not want it to happen, not with her after all? Or were we both reserved, defended, careful, not sure any more about the real person before us? Were be both scared? I couldn’t tell whether we would ever do this again. I didn’t want it to end. I was looking for a meeting of souls, a clarity of path to take, but it didn’t happen.

                      Now what? Will I try to see her again? Is she hoping we do? Is she hoping we don’t? Will she be embarrassed if I ask her? Will I? Do I want to? Why? That’s the trouble, I don’t know if I want to. But I do I want to know what path this is. I don’t want to give up on her until I’m more sure. There are very few people who I’ve had a 3 hour meal with and we didn’t notice time pass.

                      Today after work at home I cried. I’ve always been so alone. I can’t believe I’m starting to see it and I’m not going insane. Why couldn’t my parents hug me? There’s never been anything here for me. Noreen saved me from having to see this. It kills the soul, almost killed my life. Now that I see it, what I never had, where do I go, what do I do?

                      I’ve been so alone. Now that I see, can I survive? It’s a relief to stop running from seeing. To see brings a clarity to the mind, a restfulness at last from the truths too traumatizing for my childhood brain.

                    • Margaret says:

                      ***** [Larry – response to you from Margaret above in the comments thread. Adding at the bottom of the page still not happening for me! F]****

                      Daniel,
                      I live here in Antwerp in the middle of both Jewish and non-Jewish people, and a large orthodox community.

                      what I do notice is that when some of the non-Jewish people express prejudices, they often use the issue of Jewish people considering themselves as ‘the chosen people’, and therefor conclude they must consider themselves more end better than anyone else.

                      that might be one factor that often is used against them.

                      it is so easy to generalize and be blinded by group prejudices like that, that imediatly dissipate and prove wrong when focusing on single persons, piercing through the barriers of prejudice by getting to know then as persons.

                      that goes for all people of course, but recently hearing about the excesses of the ‘Islamic State’, the former Isis and how they want to circumcise all the females between say 10 and 50 of the areas they invade, that is truely horrific, and to be honest my first reaction is I would not mind too much if a bomb would be dropped on then.

                      just imagine being a girl in the city they conquer for a moment, or having a young daughter there..

                      M

                    • Larry says:

                      First of all, to post at the bottom of the page, for some reason you have to reply to the post at the bottom of the page.

                      Margaret, you do help, in the most important way a friend can, by being interested, listening, hearing, and caring. The friends on this blog who hear me and react to me and care, help me to explore my life outward and inward, help me to look inward to see what I am afraid of and how it rules my outward life, help me to look outward at what I need to change in life that I am afraid to, and help me feel not totally alone and give me courage to make the change,

                      You are doing all you can do. I have to do the rest. Just be here as an interested and caring friend and this blog will be worth something to me.

                      They sound like wonderful friends who took you to the seaside. How did you meet them?

                    • Miguel says:

                      Hello Larry.

                      I do not want to give you any advice. But I understand your situation with regard to this woman. It is true in these times one seems to go mad.

                      To clarify the way as you say, it would be good you tell her what you need from her, what you want , your fears, what would you expect of your relatioship and also what you are willing to give her in return. I recognize that it may be embarrassing but that could clear the way.

                      You could encourage her to do the same thing: telling you what she needs from you, what she expect from the relatioship, where she wants to go with the realtioship, what are her fears, hopes.

                      I hope it helps

                      Miguel

                    • Larry says:

                      Thanks Miguel. I appreciate your input.

                      My problem is I don’t know what I feel about her any more, so I don’t know what I need from her or what I want.

                      When it earlier it became clear to me that she was interested in me and I in her, I told her I was interested and could we meet some time, which led to our dinner together.

                      Now after our dinner date I don’t know how I feel about her or what I want or what the next step is. It seems like each step opens me to a lot of emptiness in my life and I have to summon bravery to go forward and I have to feel she is worth it. Right now I’m unsure whether she is, or I have to feel and work through some deep aloneness bubbling up before I am brave enough for the next step. I suspect she is just as unsure. Being in grief complicates feelings.

                      If I feel strongly enough about her, I’m sure I will eventually tell her how I feel and what I hope for. I’m not there yet. I’m trying to feel what the next step is. Likely I will see her at Monday night group, and I hope I will get some sense of where I want to go next.

                      You are right, she and I should talk with each other about what we individually want in our lives, and what our interest in each other is. I’m confused about how interested in her am now that I have more of a picture of her. I enjoyed being with her on Thursday. We were together for three hours. I didn’t want the evening to end until I knew we would meet again. But all evening I was troubled by not feeling as captivated by her as I wanted to be, by almost wanting to feign deeper interest that wasn’t there, not yet anyway. Thinking about it now, I guess I felt disappointed. Even though it was an enjoyable evening that went by quickly, I felt we didn’t click the way I’d hoped we might. Maybe we are headed for friendship. It will be relief to eventually know and become friends, and I continue my search for more than friendship.

                      I’m not falling head over heels in love, but feelings change as you get to know someone, and I realize just now that I’d like to spend at least one more time with her, doing something that we both like.

                      I might have to get a grip on my life, and feel OK about being alone and can manage and enjoy life, before I feel confident that I have something to offer in a relationship.

                    • Larry says:

                      Posting down here because it matters to me:

                      crying crying crying so scared and alone I couldn’t have made this life without Noreen I wanted her She wanted me Without her so empty and alone and afraid.

                      crying crying crying My mommy wasn’t there They didn’t want me
                      Small and so afraid and alone and empty Always The world is too big for me I am too small and alone and empty Too afraid I don’t know how to all by myself

                      I am too small to be without love The hurt is too big Without them I can’t be

                    • Larry says:

                      forever forever I will never know their love Forever I will always have needed it.

                      I survived ’til now somehow but always it hurts I withdraw I isolate so I don’t have to feel it Being noticed hurts. It makes it hard to endure my birthday with friends A hug from Gretchen bewilders me. It makes it hard to let L in. I cried a lot to let Noreen in.. I’m afraid of love and attention. It hurts. They wrecked my life. They didn’t love me. I was only little.

                      all they had to do was love me

                    • Margaret says:

                      Larry,
                      years ago we met at a tango class they and me and my dancepartner attended.

                      afterwards we all formed part of the small group of people that always stayed for a few drinks, and found we shared the same opinions and a common sense of humor.

                      we also went to a couple of tango trainings together with our club in Kreta, the Greek island, and had a terrific time out there, smimming, dancing and having meals together and roaring with laughter a lot of the time.

                      now they and me rarely go dancing anymore but we remained friends.

                      they are both fysiotherapists but he worked as a fireman and she as a social worker with difficult teenagers, but they are both retired recently.

                      they are warm and funny and very smart people and I still can’t completely let it in they keep liking me, part of me still seems to think I am not really worth it seemingly, still dreading the moment of rejection and disinterest.

                      it is healing to recieve this friendship without having to ‘perform’ in any way, just being me is enough.

                      she has to have a knee operation soon and I said I was thinking about what I’d bring her as a present when I’d visit her at the hospital, and she replied, just bring yourself, that is enough..

                      it is scary to feel how empty I can still feel, as if I have nothing to offer..

                      luckily when we are together things are really easy and all of my fear dissipates and we talk and relax and often laugh like crazy about the silliest things.

                      at the same time we have very serious talks as well, sometimes even difficult when she adresses some of my past act-outs concerning some of my past crushes on unavailable men for example..

                      once on a holiday we even had a screaming argument, but also survived that without any grudge at all.

                      they are fine people and I feel privileged to have them as my friends.

                      Guru, thanks for enjoying my good times as well, I hope you have some good times regularly as well.

                      i do notice now on my first day of no company again, how it feels too empty somehow, although it did enable me to do a lot of studying..

                      so tomorrow I should attend yoga class to get out of my lonely comfort zone here!

                      M

                    • Larry says:

                      Wow. They do sound like really good friends.

                    • Larry says:

                      This is to Margaret, and meant to be posted right after hers.

                      Wow. They do sound like really good friends.

                    • Larry says:

                      A new singing duo, for the pleasure of whoever this touches. In me the song stirs memories of the brave dreams Noreen and I once had, and how time changed all that.

                    • Margaret says:

                      Daniel,
                      I kind of lost count of the number of retreats I attended..

                      my first one must have been in ’98 I guess, and then on average once a year.

                      back then I also had phone sessions but their rate seems to be diminishing to only a few times a year, as I feel less need for them.

                      it works fine for me that way.

                      at my first retreats I was so consumed with my pain it was hard to focus on other people. that has changed a lot even though sometimes there still are difficult moments that make it very clear groups and therapy in general are still very useful.

                      it is nice to keep going back as so many of the people have become good friends and it is nice to see how they keep opening up and developing in positive ways.

                      the retreat site in Santa Barbara is also such a gorgeous place to be, peaceful and pretty, healthy food and a beautiful and usually very quiet swimming pool that must contain several primal tears..

                      M

                    • Larry says:

                      I like that image you conjured up, Margaret….swimming pool filled with tears. Mine fill the creek, where I sit on the bench to have a cry.

                    • Larry says:

                      I’ve been crying quite a bit this weekend. I try to live but it hurts. Posting on here helps me get it out. Posting the music here helps. That’s why I’m posting two more, by this sister duo I stumbled upon, First Aid Kit, with lovely voices.

                      This next song is about our despoiling of what is natural around us. What gets to me is the idea of the wolf parents wearing themselves ragged in their devotion to bringing up their wolf pups, a devotion I never felt from my parents.

                      This next song is about wanting life, being held back by our shackles, while our hopes and dreams keep us trying to break free.

                      On Sunday, the first day of the summer retreat, after dinner I walked alone from the cafeteria back to the dorm to get ready for group that evening. Friends were half way back along the path, following behind me. I chose not to wait for them to catch up. I would socialize when I got to the dorm. Almost there, I saw a car had arrived, and Barry and Gretchen were getting out. I wanted to run away, to avoid them, but I was sure they saw me. Bracing myself, disconcerted by what a coward I still am since childhood, I kept walking headlong towards them, seeing no escape for me. Gretchen looked towards me, said a friendly Hi, approached and gave me a spontaneous, generous, caring hug. I was perplexed. Barry approached and said Nice to see you. I froze momentarily, lost for words.

                      It hurts too much to be seen.

                      I’m crying about it now. Gretchen and Barry see me and care about me more than my parents did. From Barry and Gretchen and primal friends I see what I needed but was never there. The emptiness of my childhood denied me of life. To rationalize the pain I had to believe I was no good. It was too traumatizing to not blame myself but to see the truth that they just didn’t love me. The hurt is enormous. It lasts a lifetime. It makes life impossible. I’m lucky I found Noreen and her love but now she’s gone. I try to carry on but the vacuum, the absence of love, sucks out life.

                      I needed by parents but there was nothing for me.

                      No love for me. Impossible to live. Too hard to carry on.

                    • Margaret says:

                      Patrick,
                      I don’t know what makes you keep coming up with these completely unrealistic views on what primal therapy is about.

                      your comparison does not make any sense at all to me.

                      on the opposite really, if anything is further from brains
                      washing and CIA boot camps it is primal therapy in the way I have known it since I started in ’96.

                      patient-orientated witout any inference and with total respect for everyone’s own history and personality.

                      I have never had any difficulty in bringing up feelings from my personal past in a room in L.A..

                      of course it does trigger more feelings coming back to one’s familiar surroundings where everything started, those things are not contradictory at all.

                      you seem to seek ways to be able to dismiss primal therapy at any cost for some reason.

                      any idea why?

                      M

                    • Larry says:

                      You can’t induce him to feel if he is too afraid to, Margaret.

                    • Larry says:

                      Geez, does nothing get posted where it is supposed to any more.

                    • Patrick says:

                      Larry – I understand you ‘mean well’ but I do find your comments to me often a bit patronizing. I often feel things are a little more ‘complicated’ than you allow………..I am not trying to provoke a row (wot me?) but several ‘small’ things I let go and for some reason just want to say that……..

                    • Larry says:

                      No problem Patrick. As I was writing that comment in a hurry I was feeling a twinge of unease that I should be more careful how I say this. In some ways that comment was patronizing to both you and Margaret I think probably I was getting a little frustrated with Margaret always trying to get you to see something that you always don’t or don’t want to. I think she is your better friend than I am in trying to see eye to eye with you.

                    • Patrick says:

                      Thanks Larry. It was not a big thing but it feels ‘healthier’ for me to say stuff like that. And I can understand your frustration I get ‘frustrated’ with myself quite a bit…….

                    • Margaret says:

                      went with my friends to the big Swedish furniture store we all know, and ordered two couches there.
                      feels very good to replace the old worn out ones with two cheerfully coloured modern onees with removable covers, will brighten up my place !

                      tomorrow friend comes to bring and put them together and to take away old ones!

                      meanwhile received large number of calls of mom, since yesterday, who feels bad and confused, but finally mamaged to cheer her up and renew her courage..

                      we have mother’s day on friday and me and my brother already ordered flowers and fod etc…

                      it sometimes is very hard to remain patient but it is the only decent thing to do, she can’t help it anymore now and it would be cruel to get angry ..

                      at some point in the car my girlfriend rubbed my shoulders to relax me while I repeated things to my mom on the phone..

                      so glad we went to choose the new furniture, my friends are zoo very nice, I love them!

                      M

                    • Margaret says:

                      while being often irritating and somewhat manipulative, my mom can also be disarming..

                      she had been confused and afraid and had already called me a number of times to check some appointments and at some point she started crying again, saying she only felt like walking off into the woods, and just keep walking..

                      at first I tried to cheer her up in the usual way of reassuring her she only has a short term memory problem and the rest of her mind is ok, and that she does pretty well living on her own, but then I made a little joke saying she would quickly regret it walking off when it would start to rain.

                      it made her laugh and then she said ‘to be honest that is what I sometimes do, look out the window and go.. mmm. no, not now..’..

                      we laughed and she said the impulse was mostly momentary and that it was good to be able to mention it..

                      i could on my turn talk about it with my friends and they laughed and said me and my mom have a lot in common..

                      feel tired though..

                      M

                    • Larry says:

                      Posting a second time, this time down here hopefully.

                      Thank you my friends for being here for me as I share my life on the blog. By giving me space to talk, by hearing me and responding, you help me get to my truths. The dialogue with you percolates my thoughts and incubates my feelings. At home late this afternoon after work, I submerged to little boy crying and eventually desperate little boy screaming wailing, seeing the truth as a little boy that I wouldn’t have parents all of my life, in a world fraught with danger, where a child needs the reassurance and guidance of adult love and support.

                      I am becoming unhinged as I leave behind comforting landmarks and my life enters a no-man’s land of unfamiliar terrain. My life with Noreen recedes further into the past, leaving me more alone than I ever felt I could survive. Retirement approaches and I realize I cling to my work, even as my boss phases into retirement and my work role winds down ,because my work is the only familiar anchor I have left. I try to freeze my world in place and time but it’s changed and keeps changing. As I move on in life alone into an unfamiliar, unknown future, I feel how overwhelming this was to do alone as a little boy.

                      After having had the cry, I feel less pressure of need for an answer right now from L. I feel more poised to give her time and space to figure out how she feels about me, more poised to read and respond to the cues in the dance between us be they whether we will become friends only or more than friends. I’ve tried and at the appropriate time will try more to show her I want to spend more time with her, to discover what our relationship might become. The ball is in her court for her to show me she wants to explore it too. It’s scary for me and probably for her too and maybe her interest in me isn’t strong enough to overcome her concerns.

                    • Margaret says:

                      Tom,
                      nightmare, ‘mare’ as in female horse, in response to your ‘stud’
                      at least I think a mare is a female horse, as in Dutch we have ‘nachtmerrie’ for nightmare and there it is..

                      but maybe you got it in the first place and were just joking..

                      up early today for my old sofas to go and the new to arrive!
                      M

                    • Miguel says:

                      Very clear Larry and very well written Larry.

                      Margaret how is your cat. I have adopted an abandoned kitten my daughter brought
                      I really like cats and she has adapted well and we give company to each other each other.

                      Miguel

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Margaret: It was nice that you were able to fill(y) Tom in on the details. Good job.

                    • Patrick says:

                      Margaret – I admit that comment was a bit ‘over the top’. But I was thinking more of the ‘old days’ and also some of this talk about bypassing ‘culture’ annoyed me. Living here in Ireland that was a big problem growing up for me – my parents ‘bypassed’ the local culture to our great detriment. All this yakking about ‘abolishing’ things annoy me, abolish countries, abolish money, abolish language, abolish the brain………..

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Patrick used to play Sunday morning music. I will fill in as the alternate high priest today:

                    • Larry says:

                      What does the song that you posted mean for you UG?

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Larry: Well you don’t expect bubbly young women prancing around in short skirts to wear horn-rimmed geriatric glasses every day, do you? Refreshingly out of context styles and soothing femininity made for a good, sweet summer Sunday song to feel a bit centered with.

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Larry: Actually it was just something I wanted to post on a whim. If I had noticed your 8:19am posting with those two clips I wouldn’t have bothered posting mine. Just an ephemeral moodiness on my part.

                    • Larry says:

                      No concern UG. I happen to be on the blog this moring, (this weekend) and I was just curious and interested in what your song meant for you. Follow your whim I say.

                    • Patrick says:

                      Guru – I like that ‘high-priest’ or even just a priest would be fine!

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Patrick: OK, great. I have to ask, though: How would you respond if Dr. Janov anointed you as a high priest?

                    • Patrick says:

                      Q. “Why is Dublin the biggest city in Ireland?” A. Because it is always dublin’

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      hahahahaha….you got me on that one 🙂

                    • Larry says:

                      The math was difficult. 🙂

                    • Margaret says:

                      Guru,
                      haha!
                      your question qbout how Patrick would feel being anointed by Art J made me smile all through washing the dishes!

                      M

                    • Patrick says:

                      Lol lol yes yes……………well let’s say I might have to decide how I would cross that bridge if ever I came to it……..VERY un-likely lol (again).

                      (Guru – I put it down here again as it appeared way up there. Would a new page help)

                    • thomas verzar says:

                      Hi Larry
                      You are such a doll. It won’t be long at you will find your lady friend won’t be ale to hold back from you.
                      Tom

    • thomas verzar says:

      hi Jack
      You are really dreaming when you think that by creating a single state all Muslims will come to an epiphany and learn to live with Jews. Those Jews whom they sworn to eradicate, annihilate. Better yet, they are already teaching their kids how to do it in primary school, so that by the time they are old enough, say 10, they can go out and kill in the name of Allah. Either with a weapon of choice or by wearing a vest laden with you know what.
      Really Jack. I expect more from you.
      And who cares how Israel was created. It is here. Get used to it.Enjoy her fruits and labour. After all, mankind would be very backwards without some JEWISH input over the centuries, don’t you think? You may not believe this, but gays have rights in the godforsaken country.
      And yes. A BIG yes. Jews are special people. Just ask any one of us. Just ask any other human being on this planet. All WELL informed people are in awe of us. Including you. Better get used to it.
      Tom

      • Jack W says:

        Tom: I strongly suspect that many Nazis both during and even after the war would say “And who cares how many Jews, Gays or Gypsies were killed? (gassed) … it happened … get used to it” That is careless talk, either way. As for you expecting ‘more’ from me … what is the MORE that you expect?????.

        There are many things whereby it could be said “get used to it” and I suspect if most of did ‘just that’ then nothing would ever get achieved. Just as the British for more than two centuries were hated: Muslims and Arabs will go on hating Jews … as I suspect Jews will go on hating Muslims and Arabs … you being a demonstration; though I am not sure universal of all Jews … and Israel will for ever be a country living in fear of annihilation. “Get used to it” to quote you.

        Defending Judaism whilst hating Muslims and Arabs is cause, as I see it, of putting your psyche into a spin. There are good and bad Jews and there are good and bad Muslims and Arabs … if one is determined to see things in terms of GOOD & BAD. I personally rejected both characterization in my book that you bought and read. It seems my main point of that book (The Implications of Primal Theory) did not get through to you … maybe I should seriously think of a re-write.

        Jack

        • thomas verzar says:

          Jack, Jack, Jack
          Whatever makes you think that I hate Arabs or Muslims. I do not. I do not wish them ILL. But I do hope they come to their senses and stop hating each other, the Jews and whoever gets in the way of their Ultimate Jihad. Which includes all of the Western World.
          And why should I or anyone else get used to your idea that of annihilation? Yesterday, today or tomorrow?
          What takes place right at this moment in time in the Arab world ought to be a clear sign for all concerned. Including the British and Irish. There is no escaping from the driving minority of Muslims, unless you stand up. the issue gets categorised by all and sundry as being a Arab-Jewish issue. Nonsense. Have you looked lately what they are doing to their own? How many hundred of thousands of their own they kill? Would you want to be next? I don’t.
          This is not Arab Israeli conflict. it just suits the pseudo-intellectuals, left-wingers and the hard core Anti-Semites
          But unfortunately while you toil to explain yourself in this matter, ROME IS BURNING. Lokk about.
          Tom

          • Jack W says:

            Tom: “Whatever makes you think that I hate Arabs or Muslims” Your writing and seemingly your anger about this whole situation. Hope that explains my perception of how you are taking this whole debate. Merely my perception mind.

            I continue to ask the question:- What do you think it is about those Semites (Jews) that has caused the hate and persecution, all down time with even many Christians as seemingly Patrick seems to feel? It’s not without cause. The pride you seem to have for your ethnicity is, I feel, neither serving you or benefiting you one iota as I pointed out to Daniel. The saying goes:- “Pride comes before a fall”.

            I do think that it is possible for all Semites to live in some relative peace. BUT not until some conceptual LEAPS from both parties. My feeling and I did write about exactly this in my first book, is that it is ‘Religion’ that is the major cause of the major divisions among humans. However, I do see there is a trend among many people to become more and more secular as you yourself tell me of yourself. Something that set out as a religious concept to become an ethnicity is fraudulent and an aspect of what I deem “Crooked Thinking”. Words, words, words … we seem to be able to make just about anything from the use of words, but does any of it really serve to help the quality of life … for any of us?

            It is an Irony that the one person that seeming did the most damage to you in your early childhood, is the one person that you deem gave you your ethnicity. Is there some paradox here … and I ask the question sincerely … not really knowing your answer..

            Jack

            • thomas verzar says:

              Hi Jack
              I am addressing your second paragraph first.
              It is pure envy and jealousy. No other race/ ethnicity has achieved as much as the Jewish people in history..
              And when people are a primitive lot, uneducated, to say the least, you become easily gullible, and it is easy to be persuaded that your lousy life, your poverty, is all due those demonic Jews, or Gays or whomever.
              Similarly, what have the gays done over the centuries to bring down upon themselves such hatred.? …….NOTHING. You may recall your ancient history, there were civilisations I think like the Greeks, or Romans who openly practised homosexuality. It was part of their culture.
              You have to get used to the idea, that there always be people, who will take advantage of people’s ignorance. Better to educate your people, debate all issues to death, and sharpen their minds.
              And why shouldn’t I be proud of my ETHNICITY? Whatever makes you think that it doesn’t serve me well? Why shouldn’t you be proud being GAY?
              Now to your third paragraph.
              While the general Arab population ‘choose’ to stay ignorant, there is absolutely no chance of ever being peace in the Middle East, or anywhere else, for that matter. You need to get of your horse and stop pontificating about the /Semites’. They do not exist as a cohesive, homogeneous group. They never did, and never will. It’s in human nature. It is all part of any organism.
              I didn’t become secular. I was never religious. I grew up in a communist country, where religion was strictly forbidden. Over a long period of time, I gradually became more and more proud of my ethnicity. I look around and I see the many accomplishments of a group of people, who put education and regard for human life above all else. Unlike some other people we know.Right?
              The only crooked thinker is the one who doesn’t think, nor is prepared to engage in meaningful debate. ” But don’t kill me”. OK?
              I do not understand your last paragraph.
              What has giving me birth and neurosis has anything got to do with ethnicity? Are you suggesting that giving me birth was neurotic? Or, being ethnic is neurotic? Or both?
              Mankind developed in spurts and starts, like all organisms. and mankind developed over a long period of time, lover many different geographical areas. Hence, to borrow from our learned mentor, Arthur Janov, epigeny (probably bad spelling) has been a major contributor to our differences, or shall I say the end result is that we are not all one, at any tone time, at any place.
              Oh. I said too much. Be easy on me, OK?

              • Patrick says:

                Below is something I wrote to a friend this morning. Sorry I know ‘quoting myself’ that sounds egotistic. But I wanted to say something about him here and well easier than doing it all again. Also I am aware I am falling into this thing of commenting on a suicide that I ‘accused’ Art Janov of but I like to think I relate it to myself, I am not ‘speculating’ beyond that.

                Speaking of being edgy and tense I just heard on the radio as I am sure you will Robin Williams the actor committed suicide. There for me always was something about him……………I remember seeing him years ago on Charlie Rose (talk show like Mike Parkinson) and he was SO funny but also SO ‘edgy and tense’ and I of course don’t consider myself ‘funny’ (though I try to be sometimes) but I could really relate to this thing of whatever he did was not (funny) enough. Like he would tell one really funny story/joke and before the laughter or the effect had died down he HAD to come with another and another……………. I relate it to me to have to perform, always do stuff and top myself all the time. An exhausting life and I have always had this feeling about him like even maybe he would do that one day. Once in Oregon Margaret my sister visited us and she said ‘patrick you really remind me (looks) of a certain actor’ and she for a long time struggled with finding the name. I told her don’t worry about it but secretly I wanted to know and later she said ‘Ive got it Robin Williams’. I remember thinking s… I am MORE like him than you know in terms of having to ‘outdo’ himself and actually later I used to look and I don’t think I looked like him at all so maybe she was picking up on something else. Anyway too long of a story but when I heard that this morning………………….he was 63 so one year to go, sorry I should not ‘joke’ like that.

                • Margaret says:

                  Larry,
                  it sounded to me like she did give you the message the folkfest isn’t the right setting to meet, didn’t she?

                  then why do you expect to receive another call about it still?

                  my take is you should not jump to too many comclusions if she does not call on this topic, just let time evolve and tell you where to go..

                  Patrick,
                  it makes sense what you mention about needing to perform etc, and hearing ore about how you feel in general makes me really wish even more strongly you’d start to work again with Gretchen, that seemed to be good chemistry, isn’t it?

                  hope you give yourself another chance, you have so many qualities..
                  Tom, I am indeed getting tired of the whole ‘semite’ discussion..

                  ran into some quotes about different ways in which guys and women tend to discuss in my textbooks, which I keep up my sleeve for the moment as it would just open another can of worms, haha, the guys/girls one, and I immediately see both truths in it and loads of exceptions.

                  anyway, I am ok, thanks, back to studying some more..

                  M

                  • Margaret says:

                    Tom, haha, ‘you stud you’??
                    (Night)mare M.

                    • Margaret says:

                      a really horrific example of the craziness of extremism..
                      on the news we had an item about if I remember well an Australian former Syria fighter now with IS, former Isis.
                      he poses proudly for a picture with his seven year old son, who is made to hold up someone’s chopped off head to the camera.

                      the text with the picture. ‘that’s my boy!’

                      sad and crazy..

                      M

                    • Phil says:

                      Margaret, that is really crazy. I am hoping that Isis is prevented from establishing their own country. Syria and Iraq are not on my list of of places to visit. Phil

                    • Miguel says:

                      Phil

                      I think the ideologies and stereotypes are very strong
                      A wave of anti-Semitism travels through the world specially Europe

                      Why: ?

                      According to Cuban writer Carlos Alberto Montaner there are several reasons.

                      1- We humans formulate our judgment on the basis on stereotypes and categories. It is our way of peering into a complex reality. We think that we have an idea of what Germans, English, Americans, Catalonians, blacks, whites and Chinese are like. Those schematic views are frequently loaded with negative connotations, as happens in the case of gypsies and blacks.
                      That is the same as Freud said about mechanism of projection. A Defense mechanism: Projection is a defense mechanism by which the subject attributes to others the virtues or defects, including its shortcomings (lack). For negative projection, it operates in situations of emotional conflict or internal or external threat of origin, attributing to other people or objects feelings, or impulses that are unacceptable own thoughts to the subject.

                      2. Lamentably, the idea of the Jew was coined by his Christian enemies. Dissension in the synagogue — a few Jews were convinced that the Messiah had arrived and his name was Jesus — turned into a cruel and interminable persecution as soon as Christianity, that heretical branch of Judaism, became the religion of the Roman Empire through the Edict of Thessalonica (A.D. 380), promulgated by Theodosius the Great, a resolute emperor who declared “mad and wicked” anyone who rejected the authority of the Patriarch of Antioch.
                      From that point on, and for the next 1,600 years, the Jews were characterized as demoniacal, perverse, miserly, traitorous, disloyal and dirty. They were persecuted, massacred, expelled, defamed and shoved into ghettoes. They were branded as odious and condemned to wear visible insignias; they were forced to renounce their beliefs, under penalty of death. The Catholic Church created repressive institutions, such as the Holy Inquisition, for the purpose of destroying them or “purifying” them on pyres.
                      This permanent harassment created a very negative stereotype, thus perpetrating a continuous “character assassination” of an entire people. Classical literature then picked up and disseminated that swill. Shakespeare, Lope de Vega, Quevedo, Voltaire, Dickens, T.S. Eliot, Pío Baroja, Dostoyevsky and a hundred other wonderful writers incurred in various manifestations of anti-Semitism that kept the flame of hatred alive.

                      3. Today, the old anti-Semitism of the Inquisition, of the Cossacks, of the Nazis, is one of the identifying characteristics of the groups that call themselves “progressive.” If in these anxious days someone wants to immediately assume a revolutionary role, the most efficient way to do so is to show one’s rejection of the Jews and condemnation of Israel. It’s the equivalent of hanging a poster of Che or wearing a T-shirt with his image.
                      Fortunately, the terrible label slapped on the Jewish people is reversible. The fact that Israel, surrounded by enemies, is a society that’s stubbornly democratic, prosperous, creative, a generator of science and technology, the home of the only free Arabs in that tortured region, including Arab women, belies that malignant stereotype.
                      Little by little, the truth will break through: Israel is the most successful and worthy political experience of the second half of the 20th Century. But we have to say it loudly and fearlessly.

                      Miguel

                    • Miguel says:

                      You can see the whole article in C arlos Alberto Montaner Blog

                      Israel’s struggle against infamy

                      http://www.elblogdemontaner.com/israels-struggle-infamy/#more-5340

                    • Jack W says:

                      Miguel: You are obviolusly well read and informed … BUT (my ‘grander’ view) all this is as a result of ALL exchange systems that strated way back when. Once we needed to give this for that and stopped natural “giving” and acceptable “receiving” then we were on the slippery road to what we now deemed “capitalism” (cloined by Carl Marx, another Jew). I feel (believe if you will) that we don’t have to maintain this system. That it is ‘fear of the unknown’ that primaily maintains it.

                      However, since, I see this as mankind’s acquired “neurosis”, firmly believing that it is “OUR NATURE” (erroneously by my sentiments); when in fact it is our acquired behavior … it will, because of our condition (neurosis) continue ad infinitum, until we either ‘blow ourselves up’ OR, poison ourselves OR, asphyxiate ourselves into extinction.

                      I would like to WISH otherwise … but then that’s perhaps my ‘obsession’ Que lastima.

                      Jack

                    • Phil says:

                      Miguel: I don’t think “progressive” groups are necessarily anti-Semitic. Israel is seen as a belligerent state, not just defending itself, is what the problem is. For example for many years there has been talk of a preemptive strike on Iran, with possible US backing. Not a good idea at all. But I feel done with this issue, at least on the blog. Maybe you want to discuss further offline. Phil

                      Primal Institute wrote:

                      Howdy,

                      Miguel commented on: Behind the Scenes part 4.

                      Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/behind-the-scenes-part-4#comment-16380) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/behind-the-scenes-part-4)

                      This was in response to Phil:

                    • thomas verzar says:

                      Hi Phil
                      I take exception you calling Israel a ‘belligerent ‘state. Where do you get that from? What analysis of events and situations in the recent past led you to that conclusion.
                      Tell me, what would you do if you had a nation of 75 million people, led by zealots, insane people, were threatening with your annihilation? Would you just stand by and tell them they are very naughty to talk like that? Do you really think they would actually sit down and have a meaningful conversation or dialogue with you, to come to a mutual understanding that you have to be annihilated.
                      Or would you come out of the clouds and seriously consider how to protect your citizens, families and children from such a real threat. Honestly Phil.
                      Were you considering writing a critic on events unfolding, as we speak in Iraq, where the whatever majority sect is, took it into their heads to start exterminating the Kurds. And if by chance the Kurds were to defend themselves, would you be calling them belligerent also?
                      Tell me, those young ( Christian) girls abducted by the Muslims in Nigeria, would you have considered them belligerent, had they been able to defend themselves?
                      How do you come to make those statements? What drives you to do so? I know you had enough of the subject, but it keeps cropping up.
                      You cannot just make lofty statements and not expect a reaction.

                    • Phil says:

                      Tome: Reread what I said. In my post to Miguel I was trying to explain how I think Israel is seen among progressive groups. I could be all wrong. I do want to let this go on the blog and I am tired of the topic. But we can discuss it further offline if you want. Phil phiban@msn.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:00:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

                    • Jack W says:

                      Tom: You obvious caring and defense of Israel, gets me to beg the question, and I don’t mean it facetiously. Is there a reason that you do not go to live there? Since Australia is not your place of birth, and yes, I am aware that when one settles somewhere it’s not that easy to just uproot and leave and maybe start all over. I’ve done it several times in my life and I might have to do it again, but I have no desire to return to somewhere I once lived.

                      To digress for a few seconds in order to get round to my main point … I watched the one hour show on PBS last night about the life of Stephen Hawking. I did once make an attempt to write to him, but his gate keeper kept me at bay. I suggested to him that “Unified Field Theory” had already been formulated, after he wrote in his book that if and when it was formulated it would need to be simple and understandable to ordinary people and not just mathematicians and physicists. My proposal fell into that category. Simpy: I was suggesting that Primal Theory was “Unified Field Theory” in so far as it was about US (The Human being) and that it was so simple as to be almost unbelievable.

                      I did read his book “A Brief History of Time” and I felt I understood it; and him. What was distressing about the program was that he had lost out on life, least-ways a decent life as a full human.

                      He replaced several notions that ‘before the “Big Bang”, that created the universe, there was no such thing as time. He also, through mathematical demonstrations came up with “black holes” such that his maths would ‘add up’. I use the phrase “add up” in much the same way that the title of his book was also a ‘tongue in cheek’ title … a play on words. He use the word “singularity” in the same manner. It’s all words, words, words in the end

                      This brings me now back to what I hope to suggest to you. You too, I feel, in order to support your feeling and caring for Israel is in the same vein … and I feel that your support has more to do with YOUR ‘feelings’ rather than any outward (factual factor) of what Israel is OR is not. My feeling about Stephen Hawking is that he was totally into his head and neglected the “right lobe” of his brain in order to feed the left lobe … and the consequences to his body suffered “Lou Gehrig’s” disease. Yes Tom, I am suggesting that your comments relating to Israel are a “head trip” Something Patrick is very apt to do about his sentiments … also about Israel, et al. DEEMING it facts when all there is:- is feelings … and then the expression of those feeling. One without the other isn’t the whole of US as a creature.

                      Jack.

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      (Man, I hope this post sticks to the bottom of the blog!)
                      Jack: So, why did Albert Einstein not have Lou Gehrig’s disease? Einstein’s left brain lobe was having a delicious feast too, wasn’t it?

                    • Patrick says:

                      Another strange ‘fact’ or is it just a ‘feeling’ (LOL) …………is I have heard many people got Lou Gehrig’s disease who never met Lou Gehrig. Can anyone explain that using ‘head trips’ or not I don’t really care so long as there is an answer……….

                    • Phil says:

                      Patrick, It’s not thought to be an infectious disease. Being an athlete, it would be hard to consider Lou Gehrig to have been in his head. I guess the disease got named after him because of how it quickly debilitated a strong and famous athlete. Phil

                      Phil

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Phil:

                      If I told my dad what I am about to tell you right now, he would get upset and tell me I am “berating him” for making a logical fault. I only hope you don’t feel the same way, but I am a bit puzzled by the 180-degree about-face you logically made between your post addressed to me and the one you made to Patrick…

                      I asked Jack why Einstein did not have Lou Gehrig’s since I was assuming both men were living deep in the left side of their heads as great scientists. You replied by saying Einstein was more down to earth, which implied to me that Jack’s hypothesis was still valid to some extent and that Einstein could escape the disease by not living so much in his head.

                      Then you told Patrick that it was hard to imagine Lou Gehrig himself living in his head as an athlete, yet he still contracted the disease.

                      It leaves me wondering why you wanted to tell me that Einstein was more down to earth if the post you made to Patrick superseded the one you made to me.

                      Sorry if this happens to sound nit-picky to you. It’s not a big deal, anyway.

                    • Patrick says:

                      Phil – my comment about Lou Gehrig’s disease was purely a joke. I heard it years ago and always liked it and you would imagine a disease called after a particular person would be transmissable or actully may not come to think about it.

                      But you do bring up an interesting point if Lou Gehrig’s disease is associated with ‘being in your head’ then why did a very great athlete get it. Unless HE was ‘in his head’ also. Kind of points out the whole notion needs a little revision though the definition of ‘being in your head’ is a bit vague and depending on who is talking ANYONE could be ‘in their head’ including a great athlete. Still hardly passes even basic ‘science’…………..

                    • Patrick says:

                      Guru – I think you are correct. Einstein was saying (I imagine) that ‘reality’ is not based on ‘randomness’ but had to follow strict laws of causality etc. He was reacting to the quantum guys who said everything was based on probabilites, statistics etc. Guru as a bit of a ‘gambler’ I imagine it might appeal to you, the quantum notion that is.

                    • Jack W says:

                      Patrick: Seemingly there can be many reasons for us to fuck-up our heads and it then to resinates in our bodies. If your head (left lobe) is forever concerned about FACTS then I suspect you are missing out on half of what life is about.

                      I doubt you will even take what I say into considration. As I see you … you are so invested in the “Head Trip” and seemingly blind to the nature of “Full Feelings” That’s ok … it’s your body and I suppose you can do with it what you you DEEM fit.

                      Jack

                    • Phil says:

                      Patrick, Good one. You got me with that, I’ll know better next time. It would be very hard to prove that being in your head causes anything, although it probably does. All of us here got “Janov’s disease”. Phil Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 20:53:26 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

                    • Phil says:

                      UG: First if all I’m not convinced being in one’s head would cause this disease. My posts are just some stuff which comes to mind,. Phil

                      Primal Institute wrote:

                      Howdy,

                      THE Ultimate Guru commented on: Behind the Scenes part 4.

                      Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/behind-the-scenes-part-4#comment-16431) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/behind-the-scenes-part-4)

                      This was in response to Phil:

                    • Jack W says:

                      Phil: I’d like to add to your comment by saying that the root causes of all these type of ailments/diseases are not as a result of what we are doing in the present … but originated in the womb or in early childhood. That one or another disease culminates at a later stage in life (exacerbated by the then current life-style … “defense system”) … is ‘the way ones cookie crumbles’ To ignore ones history (to quote Art Janov) is to miss TOTALLY ‘the wood for the trees” Hence as I see it,Jim alias Guru and Patrick are on the wrong track.

                      They love,seemingly, their head tripping.

                      Jack

                    • Phil says:

                      Jack: I do think primal pain is powerful and a possible cause for a lot of things. No doubt about it. Phil Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 00:18:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

                    • Phil says:

                      I think Albert Einstein was maybe a little more down to earth than Stephen Hawking. Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.

                    • Phil says:

                      UG: Einstein thought God not to be a gambler, that he wouldn’t play dice with the universe. Not really that reassuring for me. An attempt to use math and science to confirm beliefs. Phil

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Phil: OK, that’s fine and I’m sure that would be an interesting conversation piece all its own aside from the Lou Gehrig discussion we’re having.

                      I can only say that Einstein was a fan of Baruch Spinoza’s philosophies. The “God doesn’t play dice with the universe” comment is something my poor little mind won’t touch with a 10-foot pole because of all the topics that can arise as an outgrowth of that comment. I do not think Einstein had to believe in a God to make a comment such as that (ie. a belief in an intelligent creator is not a necessary pre-requisite for that comment).

                    • Jack W says:

                      Guru: In reality I don’t have any idea why Einstien didn’t get Lou Gehrig’s disease, but from what I’ve read about Einstien it was his wife that did nearly all the matematical shenanigins. Anyway he was not concerned to make his maths mean anything other than dole out a formua. So!!!! no he wasn’t feasting on maths … he got his wife to do all that stuff.

                      Hope that answered your question.

                      I have aske you in the past to start doing your own “thinking”, rather than forever asking question that you then can do your ‘wisdom contortions’ on.

                      Jack

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      Jack: And I have asked you multiple times in the past to stop posting personal information on the blog. You did this with Gretchen’s relatives, and now you are doing it with me.

                    • Jack W says:

                      Guru. No I won’t: it was your mistake outing yourself.

                      You are not my daddy … nor my mommy so … live with it.

                      Jack

                    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                      This has nothing to do with idiotic mommy or daddy nonsense. It boils down to human privacy & confidentiality. Something you obviously don’t give a shit about.

                      OK, I’m going to have to request stronger measures, then.

                    • Jack W says:

                      Guru: What’s so fucking private about your first name????. Geeze man … get a grip of yourself. AND … YOU ‘OUTED’ YOURSELF. What stonger measure do you have in mind????

                      Maybe a gun … yeah !!! that’s constitutional … and pretty normal in your ‘nick of the woods, I gather … yeah !!!!

                      Jack

                    • Miguel says:

                      Jack:
                      I think what Tom says goes beyond what is happening in Israel.
                      The attack on Israel is a threat to the West and the freedom of us all. It is part of jihad or holy war against the infidels.

                      Europe is particularly threatened: in some schools and you can not celebrate Christmas because it goes against the sharia. In others in some schools you can not speak of pork ham because it also goes against it.

                      Islam is more than a belief. With the Sharia it’s also a totalitarian regime as dangerous as Nazism and Communism. Nothing to do with Ghandi or Mother theresa ideas about peace.

                      Primal Therapy would not be possible in these countries, nor hippies.

                      Freedom is a feeling and think one of the most important. It is also a fact. Without freedom there is nothing but slavery.

                      Tom ,
                      thank you for your kind words.
                      Carlos Alberto Montaner is really a fighter for freedom. I had to escape the tyranny of Castro´s communism . He has lived in the United States and now in Madrid.
                      He has had several controversies with songwriters and castro followers . Also with the writer Gabriel Garcia Marquez (100 years of solitude), friend of Castro. With him he could not talk about polilitics though He is a polite man and true to himself.

                      I discovered Carlos time ago because for me he means to be free and different. I discovered him in a Spanish newspaper called Digital Freedom, Libertad Digital, where he usually writes

                      Miguel.

                    • Phil says:

                      I am in Spain now. Everything is going well but I am a little out of practice with the language. In the next few days we will be going to the beach in Alicante and also to a soccer game; Real Madrid versus Atletico Madrid. Interesting my wife hears that quite a few Spaniards went to Ireland due to the poor economic conditions here. Also, there are many Romanians here; some even in the very small town I’m visiting, but this is nothing new. Phil

                      Primal Institute wrote:

                      Howdy,

                      Miguel commented on: Behind the Scenes part 4.

                      Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/behind-the-scenes-part-4#comment-16558) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/behind-the-scenes-part-4)

                      This was in response to Jack W:

                    • Miguel says:

                      Phil
                      I hope you enjoy the soccer game between Real Madrid and Atletico

                      I am a follower of the Athletic

                      Do your kids love soccer ?

                      I hope you enjoy in Spain

                      See you next time.

                      Miguel

                    • thomas verzar says:

                      Miguel
                      You are a genius.
                      Wherever did you find this Cuban writer?
                      Tom

                    • thomas verzar says:

                      Hi Margaret
                      What did you mean by (Night) mare? Me? are you talking about me?
                      Tom

                  • Larry says:

                    Thanks Margaret. What you say is making me think.

                    I guess I felt indecision on her part. I guess I had wanted her to phone me about it, as it would solidify a connection between us. But she hasn’t given me any message that any time or place is the right setting to meet a second time. She hasn’t given me any hint that she welcomes or rejects another meeting ever. No rejection is a positive sign in my books, but I shouldn’t be letting my hopes get too far ahead of me. I should plan that she won’t be in my weekend. If she phones me that will tell me something, but really I don’t expect that she will.

                    But at some point I will stop my tentative advances if it isn’t clear to me that they are welcomed. My feeling is that she doesn’t want to give up on me, but has mixed feelings about me. Our feelings are complicated by having lost spouses we were deeply attached to and we are afraid of new relationships.

                    Thanks for spurring me to think about this Margaret.

              • Jack W says:

                Tom: First I will be very easy on you … the easiest I know how, and that is to not answer many of your points. Why? cos I obviously am not getting through to you, and that is entirely my fault and I take the blame. Are you getting through to me? Yeah! I think so, since I feel I understand everything you say and it makes total sense to me that you think and believe the way you do. However, I don’t think the way you do … maybe that’s why so many have called me crazy … and I am. So to put it mildly you’ve been having a dialog with a crazy idiot.

                The only point I will re-iterate is that accepting ones ethnicity … whatever that ethnicity is … is arbitrary. ‘A religious belief system’ for all adults is something we take onto ourselves. We can either proudly proclaim it … all the way to being ashamed of it … but since it’s a “BELIEF SYSTEM” we can unbelieve it. I never knew you were Jewish until I asked. I forget what caused me to ask. The same goes with ethnicity. You can take it upon yourself or, you can dismiss it. I’m doing my utmost to dismiss all mine.

                I have been called many names by many telling me who I am … including a great deal on this blog. I have given most some great thought, least-ways since childhood, when much of the name calling did indeed upset me. My mother passed it all off with the “Sticks and stones …….” mantra. Yeah their perception of me is that I am … this or that … not sure it makes much difference to the way I walk down the street OR, where I buy my groceries, OR, who I decide to live with OR, what I had for breakfast and on and on and on..

                Jack

                • Phil says:

                  Jack: I agree that ethnicity and religious beliefs are kind of an artificial layer. Beliefs can change. People immigrate and take on the attributes of the new country. Jewish Americans are not the same as Russian Jews. Irish Americans, are not the same as Irish. At a young age, some indoctrination takes place. If it is done well it will seem to be a permanent thing. I was raised half heartedly as a Catholic. That never took for me, I rejected it. Maybe people need to identify with a group when they are not in touch with their core feelings and identity, pain being in the way. Phil

                  • Patrick says:

                    Rather than add anymore to the ‘semite’ discussions I have found a TV channel much to my liking which I think I have mentioned once before called RT (“Russia Today”) and it basically gives the Russian perspective on a lot of things. I think it is based in the UK but not sure. Anyway in the US it came with the basic cable package but I was surprised to find it in the UK also and even in Ireland again in some kind of basic cable package

                    I find it very refreshing compared to the ‘corporate media’ and it’s take make so much sense in regards to Ukraine, Syria, Gaza and all these kind of issues. I prefer it mostly to even ‘left’ types programs in the West, anyway I thought to point it out to people. A lot of people may have it and not realize it, to me it is well worth a watch now and then but maybe that’s just me

                  • Jack W says:

                    Phil: What your comment suggested, fits in with a lot of what I am writing here. My friend and companion Jim was also brought up Roman Catholic and since rejected it out of hand.

                    The greatest line in your comment for me was:- ” Maybe people need to identify with a group when they are not in touch with their core feelings and identity, pain being in the way. ” That’s exactly how I see it and I feel that is basic Primal Theory.

                    I personally, don’t feel the need to BELONG to anyone, any group, or any thing. Maybe I am lucky … who knows?????

                    Jack

                • thomas verzar says:

                  Hi Jack
                  It is always nice to banter with you. You have a genuine interest in people, their issues, world events etc, and you are not afraid to speak your mind. and you giveth as well you take.
                  I refer to your second paragraph. This is Wikipedia’s definition of ethnicity.
                  “An ethnicity, or ethnic group, is a socially-defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural, or national experience.[1][2] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, myth of origins, history, homeland, language (dialect), or even ideology, and manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc”
                  If I was to follow your logic, if I got it right this time, you’re promulgating that one can, if so wished to, give up his/her history, cut loose, and choose a new identity that suits his/her circumstances of the day. Be they based on religion, geography, history, and ethnicity, whatever.
                  I contend, that you cannot give up your history. You, Jack, always be “English” in my eyes, The way you think, the way you talk, the way you paraphrase your thoughts, your general behaviour, will always show you to be the English Man. It stands to reason, Janov’s being saying this for quite some time. I think he calls is epigenetics, that your experiences change you, shape you, starting from your mother’s womb. If that is the case, than due to timing, geography, change of climate, famine, etc, a group of people will evolve differently from other groups. Will develop different ways of doing things, acquire different ‘habits’, so to speak. That of course would mean that we are different from each other.
                  Hence, when you are talking about ethnicity, in my case evolving over 300 generations, it would put us apart from other people. But so are other people.
                  But that is NOT the issue, really. The issue is, can one human being, or more to the point, in this case, a group of people, tolerate each other. Tolerate each other’s differences and accept them at the same time.
                  Us Jews are well known to be argumentative. (This is one reason that we are such damned good lawyers, by the way). However, it is rare that we turn on each other. It does happen occasionally, unfortunately. But we don’t go on killing each other. The only time we start a war, if it is accepted that if don’t, our demise could be imminent. Every race, colour, ethnicity has the urge, and compulsion to survive. It’s in our DNA. So why should Israelis behave any differently? More to the point, if it is perceived that we act differently, and hence are treated differently compared to all other races or ethnics groups, then YES, Anti-Semitism comes into play. And why should I, or any of my fellow Jews accept that? Does any one race or ethnic group likes and accepts being singled out? NO. No WAY.
                  I’ve run out of steam. Over to you old man.
                  Tom

  130. Larry says:

    Since the retreat I’ve been pretty busy at work, Margaret. Last Thursday we put in the hours of two work days, the extra time needed to drive to and from the field site, 5 of us in a van. The good thing is I like working outdoors and I like the people I’m working with. They are young and full of life and kind of carry me in their wake. The bad thing is that I don’t have the same energy and motivation as I did when I was younger, and my arthritic back is bothering me, so I feel like I don’t want to do another summer of this work. In other words, I’m feeling my age and the approach of retirement.

    I’m anxious about retiring though. My most reliable, satisfying interactions with people, that help my self-esteem, are at work. The workplace structures my life and connects me with people I’ve been with for 20 years. I don’t see them outside of work though. On weekends I can easily let inertia set in and feel awful lonely. I feel better on weekends if I try to get out and be with people, but it feels like surfing and I don’t have the kind of deeper more solid connections I need, and I succumb to waves of crying feeling alone and scared.

    This is a long weekend here. Monday is a holiday. I had hoped to visit relatives in another city, but they have health crises. I had hoped to visit friends in another city, but they are busy with family. I phoned a fellow from the bereavement group about getting together this weekend, but his children and grandchildren want to spend the weekend with him. It really hits me how alone I am here and there’s no one who’s looking out to be with me. Too much alone and I’ll go crazy, especially when I retire. It’s a matter of survival that I make the effort to get out and connect with people somehow, but I have to fight against the fears of a little boy who is very overwhelmed, alone and afraid of the world.

    After the bereavement group meeting last Monday, L. and I talked with each other for a while before getting in our cars and going home. There is no doubt that she and I are interested in each other in some fashion. She’s been attending the group for 1 ½ years. For the very first time, next week she and I are going to get together outside of group one evening for coffee or something. She suggested Thursday, Aug. 7. That day is the 5th year anniversary of Noreen’s death.

    At first I wanted to suggest a different day, but there are good reasons to keep that date for our meeting. For one thing, it is good therapy for me. I like L. quite a bit. I only sort of know her and my head has all sorts of reasons for not getting involved with her, but my feelings have a different opinion and often take the spontaneous lead and my head yields and follows. In other words, my intuition tells me to take the risk and get to know her better, because often my feelings tell me there may be a good thing here and makes me act before my head realizes what’s going on.

    But I also have so many feelings of inadequacy. I’m not the kind of guy many women would want. I’m not in control of my life and doing what I want, confident and satisfied. I have a very hard time making myself get out and have any kind of social life. I want to present the best side of me to L. and then I see all my flaws that no one would want unless the person had them too.

    Noreen’s love and belief in me kept me going when life was too much, which was often. I need her back so badly; I ache for her deeply, for the solace, grounding and peace of having her and love in my life, and it sinks in more and more that I will never experience her ever again and I am entirely on my own and at the mercy of my own resources and strength and belief in myself.
    As Aug 7, the 5th year anniversary of Noreen’s death and the meeting with L., draw near, I remember how much I needed to be with Noreen to not be overwhelmed by my aloneness, I cry how afraid and alone I am now and how ill equipped to deal with life on my own, and healing happens when I feel the vacuum throughout my life that should have been love, and there is no way out but for me to feel the terror of my aloneness, and choose to love me and take the risk and give myself the chance, now the adult, to find my way out of this.

    If after next Thursday L. isn’t interested in meeting me again, I will be crushed and feel very alone. If she is interested in getting together more, what then? I will feel alone and afraid as I embark perhaps on a new direction in life with her, not sure where it is going and knowing there is no one who can make it safe, just like there wasn’t for Noreen and I.

    • Larry says:

      This music reminds me of the feeling of Noreen being in my life.

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Larry
      I don’t know what it is about you, but when you write about yourself and your life, I always feel I am being rocked in someone’s bosom/lap, and taken to a magic place.
      I don’t see how you could do wrong, ever. You have two big issues looming in your life. One is work, and the other the lady who got your attention, big time.
      Work wise, not that you’ve asked, I suggest you negotiate a consultancy agreement with your present work place, or some kind of a part time job. It is not unusual. A lot of my friends and acquaintances do it, as they reach the ripe old age of retirement. What I am suggesting is to transition out of full time work, if possible, gently. I cannot imagine you could be replaced so easily.
      And as far as your lady is concerned, go for it. It isn’t just about whether she wants you. She needs to know that you want her as well. Otherwise you cannot even start to dance, so to speak.
      Please forgive if I am transgressing here. But you have an endearing little boy quality about you. And that’s probably what that woman is picking up about you. So go for it, in spite of any of your misgivings.
      Tom

      • Larry says:

        Thanks for your support and encouragement as always Tom. Glad to see you on the blog and making progress in opening up. Please keep us in touch with how you are doing.

  131. Patrick says:

    Daniel was trying to point out to me I might have some ‘issues’ of my own in relation to this Israeli thing……..and though I don’t believe in ‘reducing’ political isses to ‘psychological shadows’ I DO have issues about it but not so much in the way Daniel thinks at least it does not seem that way to me…………..

    I see how our family tried to make themselves different and special and how they pissed off the neighbors and how that generated decades of hatred and confusion. As a child I felt ‘special’ all right specially picked on and bullied unmercifully, I remember once the newspaper was delivered to our house and I had this ‘flash’ like I was surprised we were even that ‘regular’ of a family that would be done for us. I felt we were a ‘pariah family’ I felt hated and despised for no reason and I felt compelled to ‘prove’ myself as a result……….and I ‘proved’ myself all right proved myself as some ‘brilliant freak’ who was STILL and now even more so ‘hated and despised’

    So I know a little bit (a lot!) about people who set themselves up as ‘special and different’ well the world treats them that way and though it is hard the only ‘salvation’ is to climb down from that. That’s one of the things I have been doing here and it feels great at times though scary and hard to do. I am amazed how little interactions move things in my brain and ‘change’ me. Not to say they were all ‘right’ and we were all ‘wrong’ but basically yes……………..we were ‘wrong’ to try to set ourselves up as ‘outside’ and it led to terrible problems and honestly I DO see Jews in a very similar light writ large in history. So………..at least from I see the ‘salvation’ is in climbing down from that and not make thing WORSE with more aggression and paranoia. And Jews with their ‘never again’ type thinking are just setting themselves up for more and worse…………in my ‘little’ non expert opinion……..

    • Daniel says:

      We’re just like everybody else – some of us are wonderful, some stink, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.

    • thomas verzar says:

      Hi Patrick
      I wouldn’t argue with Daniel. He is always right. Except he is too modest.
      And I would take on board what everyone is saying to you. From Margaret, our chief bloger, who wants nothing but the best for you, to UG, who amazingly enough still talks to you, to Larry, who comes in in his soft way and of course the rest of us on the side line.
      Don’t let your first reaction to be an adversarial move. Some of these people actually have a kind heart. Let it in. You’ve come a long way.
      You are getting there. Wherever there is for you.
      Tom

  132. Patrick says:

    I hadwhat I suppose you would call an ‘insight’ yesterday people here are familiar with my interest in ‘biology’ health, food all those kinds of issues (not ONLY Israel lol)………I was wading in the ocean and it is one of those ‘insights’ that are hard to grasp……..but I felt the LAST time I was OK was ONLY when I was ‘all body’ all body in the sense of BEFORE any ‘brain’ or ‘thinking’ came around it was THAT long ago and far away……………and my interest in those kinds of things harks back to that time and state of being, that’s why ‘mental health’ does not appeal to me much it feels it is far too AFTER THE FACT………………and I have this notion that all of us go back to the stage when we felt OK, felt as a unified being and START OVER FROM THERE………….if I can go back to that stage THEN FROM THERE I can go forward…….if I ‘start’ from later (mental health etc) it will not work that is already ‘too late’ too after the fact. Of course though isn’t it a ‘fantasy’ that I can start over, is that just a dream too…………….I suppose in many ways it is after all history cannot be rewound, things did go bad from there am I doomed to just ‘dream’ of what might have happened…………

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      You guys can keep going all you need to in order to get to the bottom of this, but I was wondering: Have the Israelis or Palestinians in the Middle East ever talked about Patrick & Daniel?

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        I meant to say Jews or Palestinians in Israel, but never mind my question, anyway. Just an errant comment.

      • thomas verzar says:

        HI UG
        I have it from a ‘credible source’ that both Hamas and the Israelis can hardly restrain themselves waiting for the next tit bit from our blog.
        Rest assured that we are a world wide phenomenon already.
        Do not despair.
        Tom

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Actually, Tom….that was my original point!

          I briefly wondered why we were paying so much attention to something (or someone(s)) that won’t pay an ounce of attention to us, but then I realized there can be much more to the story than just that simple question. This is why I wanted to retract the original thought.

  133. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    what makes you think Primal is only about the thinking part of mental health?

    many of my primals have gone back to the stage before any words existed for me, only the integrated body and emotion feeling as a whole.

    I fear there might be no short way for you to get there if you refuse to work through some other stages first.

    you are doing so but seem to chose the long way round.
    wish you luck nevertheless.

    working on our ‘mental health’ even using some thinking to find our way in, carries us often straight back into that early state where things often went wrong and need to be reset as much as posible by leetting the emotion and overwhelming feeling for that baby finally run its course.

    in one of our first groups togehter you triggered me and heard the baby me, entirely a spontaneous process tat feels healing.

    and no I was not scared of your thundering voice back then, it was just the baby me protesting in the memory of long past arguments and wanting them to stop, before the stage even of feeling unsafe or scared.

    in that particular cry anyway..

    you miss out on a great deal with all your resistance and suspicion.

    it is entirely up to you to decide what you do with the rest of your life, and it is not a choice of either primal or either social and political concern, it is not as if those things can’t go together.

    what are you really afraid of I wonder, is it that what you keep calling ‘weakness’?
    that little boy was not weak, give him a chance before it is too late.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – it’s a feeling……………..mine I mean…….by way of ‘explanation’ of the ways I think, like ‘mental health’ does not do it or not eneough. I understand Janov’s ‘promise’ is we could get back in our bodies……..but can we, especially if our bodies have been ruined by a life time of ‘bad choices’………….that’s why I think something MORE is needed. Something that address the damage WHERE the damage is laid down or ‘stored’. You are right none of this is either/or but in my view something MORE is needed.

      It reminds me of something Freud wrote about (Daniel can quite properly point out I know LITTLE of Freud) but he wrote somewhere of ‘trauma’ and likened to a candle that tipped over and result was the whole house burned down. A smoking ruin useless as a house afterwards. Freud talked about how going back to the incident with the candle was not ENOUGH, we can go back and ‘replay’ that forever but it does nothing for the ruined house. In my own case I see my delving into ‘biology’ as an attempt to restore or fix up the house in some way as best as I can. I don’t have much interest in Freud but that struck me as very interesting and he was really pointing out the ‘limitations’ of ‘reliving’ types of therapy……………….and I do believe he was onto something there.

      • Larry says:

        No, you can’t go back and start over. There’s no rewinding and having a second go. The tragedy is that life has been lived and the damage done. I say give Freud due credit for being a visionary, but being 100 years before our time appreciate his vision was limited. His vision as you’ve interpreted it for us, is that the house burns down and the damage done is forever and repair isn’t possible. Our bigger, deeper vision, thanks to the Janovs, is that as children for some reason we acquire the careless/dangerous behaviour of burning down our house and the effect throughout our lives is tragic, and as we grow up we continue the reckless behaviour so as a consequence our house burns down every time we try to rebuild, or we don’t try at all. The Janovs showed how we can go back to childhood and gain insight into the reason for our behaviour and its destructiveness and stop it, and change our behaviour now so as adults when we try to rebuild we finally have a chance to have a house. If Freud was alive today he’d read the Primal Scream and say Aha! Of course! I should have seen it, it was right before my eyes!

        • Patrick says:

          Larry said (above) “His vision (Freud’s) as you’ve interpreted it for us, is that the house burns down and the damage done is forever and repair isn’t possible”

          Larry I don’t think that’s what Freud was saying, I interpret it to mean that aside from having to reckon with ‘traumatic events’ we also have to reckon all the damage in the meantime that results from those events. This is of course not news to primal people and I suppose in the primal world that is even obvious.

          But what has concerned me for example and I have mentioned this before I was diagnosed with diabetes in 2003. I have seen diabetes describes as ‘metabolic chaos’ and it has seemed to me that something like that needs MORE than well ‘therapy’ as in primal therapy and the way it is practiced. That has sort of been my quest these last few years and I do believe with the immense help of Dr Kruse to have kind of cracked that nut (hopefully). I dare to say this applies to more than diabetes I would say cancer, chronic fatigue and many other conditions even Alzheimer’s, Parkingson’s, Multiple Schlerois etc etc

          It seems to me all these traumas and the way we deal with them (often ‘bad decisions’ on how we live our life) are ‘stored’ in the body. And I do think help can be done on that level leading possibly to a lot of ‘feeling’ and hopefully true resolution of the problem(s). But to kind of only go the ‘feeling route’ or try to do it all through feelings…………….well maybe it’s possible but it depends on so many things falling into place. Primal can be a ‘one trick pony’ and in-effective very often from my own expierience and observations of others also. The ultimate test is results and just because a theory or therapy SHOULD work does not mean that it does (work)

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Patrick:
            You said:
            I interpret it to mean that aside from having to reckon with ‘traumatic events’ we also have to reckon all the damage in the meantime that results from those events.

            This strikes to the very core of what’s bothering me personally right now. In a lot of ways I am already “happy” Primally-speaking (or at the very least able to integrate feelings reasonably well as I encounter any…).

            I’m just overwhelmed at trying to repair the long-term physical damage from my mother’s loss anymore rather than the psychological. This is what I find most discouraging & despairing for me.

            A shiny, happy person buried under rubble, so to speak.

            Taking a cue from Larry, I already have quite a few answers I needed to have a long time ago; I just want the burnt-down house rebuilt.

            • Jack W says:

              There seems to be a notion flying around the blog that:- The traumas of the past cause damage and that the damage is beyond repair. Of course trauma, by definition, causes damage, but that damage (depending how one defines “damage”), is redeemable … in-so-far as we don’t have to “suffer” it (meaning:- being debilitating) for the rest of our lives:- Primal Theory.

              I feel that we complicate the issue if we talk of trauma and it consequential damage and equate the two as one … “crooked thinking”. All the analogies of wrecked houses and rebuilding the house … distracts IMO from what is needed to (dare I say it) repair the “suffering” from the damage. It’s the ‘suffering’ that is the most painful. Once felt and expressed … we are in repair mode.

              Jack.

              • thomas verzar says:

                Hi Jack
                You put things so succinctly. You are our Primal Torch Bearer. You are always able to demystify and bring light to our various grievances, no matter how insignificant or large they may be.
                Are you on a retainer by the Janovs, by any chance? Freud would’ve done better for himself, had you been on his team.
                Forgive me, as I am a slow learner. I’ve put in 31 years of hard work, and I am still ‘thinking crookedly’.
                What I like about your approach mostly, is that there is a ‘ boy ‘ like quality and simplicity to your thinking. you bring some kind of joyful quality to bear. I just wish I could emulate you, as so often I feel so weighed down, so much under the influence of my past.
                Tom

                • Jack W says:

                  Tom: No! I am not on any retainer by the Janov’s … and not sure I would want to be. I’ll take the compliment, if you meant it as such, about being succinct and being “The Primal Torch Bearer.

                  The “Straight and Crooked Thinking” was a book written in the early 30’s and revised in the 50’s that I read in the 50’s and again recently and was impressed with the way the guy was able to sift through and sort out both “straight” thinking as opposed to “crooked” thinking.

                  The Israel/Palestine thing, is something you and I have discussed in the past in private. It being brought up again on the blog and I felt the need to say ‘my party piece’ (rightly or wrongly) that it was in essence a Semite v Semite conflict. going back seemingly for many millennium … but also equating it with my own personal experiences being a gay man. In the end we are all just humans going through life. That Janov, Marx, Einstein et al were Jewish is irrelevant to and for me. I took from each what they were offering … Janov being at the top of my heap.

                  I don’t think I need to take into consideration anyone’s ethnicity, gender or otherwise when reading their work. Also that I may like their work does not mean that i have to like them as people (their characters). Something, I tend to feel, others equate the two and hence confuse the overall issue. I admired the writings of Dickens but I gather that he was a very awkward and difficult person to be around. Churchill also I’ve read: more recently John Lennon … so I am told .. but I loved his songs, particularly “Imagine”.

                  Life should not have to be a struggle for anyone, but seemingly millions are and that saddens me. Hate is the extreme of anger, as I see it, often misplaced … and that to me is a pity. Finally, ‘crazy’ as it may appear to others, I feel the abolition of money would resolve 95% of our human problems … alas, I don’t see that happening either.

                  I do feel lucky in that I have someone that loves and cares for me (for now) and that is such a gift. Meantime, I love blogging and there is a chance that I soon may be running my own blog and I have a website, should anyone be interested in looking at it.

                  Jack

          • Larry says:

            Why would one restrict oneself to only going the feeling route toward getting healthy. It doesn’t make sense. If you keep smoking and drinking and eating poorly and sitting on the couch all the time watching TV, trying to heal only through the feeling route isn’t going to work and I don’t see where anyone suggests it is the way to go. I keep wondering where you get these notions. Primal theory is about feelings. Kruse’s is a theory about becoming healthier through nutrition and exercise. They don’t contraindicate each other. A smart person would use every avenue he could find toward healing.

            • Jack W says:

              Larry: I would like to add one further comment to what you wrote.

              You say:- “If you keep smoking and drinking and eating poorly and sitting on the couch all the time watching TV, trying to heal only through the feeling route isn’t going to work and I don’t see where anyone suggests it is the way to go.”

              I have tried to emphasize many times; that just sitting on ones bed or couch and feeling the feeling is NOT the totality of the whole feeling. IT NEEDS TO BE EXPRESSED. That is what in the past we got deprived of … the “expression”

              When fully expressed (and it may take some time), then there is little need for diets and exercise regimens.

              To my way of feeling … when one has totally connected, one knows just what to eat and just how much exercise I/we need to do. We’re all different. It doesn’t need an MD (who, as I see it, diagnose via statistics). The expert on me is ME … not some MD, many of whom seem not to be in contact with their own bodies.

              Anyway that how it works for me.

              Jack.

              • Larry says:

                You can emphasize all you want Jack. I beg to differ with your emphasis.

                • Jack W says:

                  Larry: That’s fine: The question remains … who’s suffering????

                  Jack

                • Larry says:

                  OK.. I’ll bite. I suppose everyone is, more or less, each and every person’s life experience being different from others. The question is ambiguous Jack.

                  • Jack W says:

                    Larry: Really!!!! … Not sure how you define ambiguity in that case.

                    Are you, or are you not suffering? In the Janovian sense. A simple question … to which even you (I know) is either “Yes” or “No”

                    However, the best way of avoiding being trapped by your own words; is to skip the question and add a rider. Yeah!!

                    Ok, Larry I can see you dodged that one nicely … be that on your own head.

                    Jack.

                  • Larry says:

                    So you mean your question is about me Jack? That wasn’t obvious. If it’s about me, the answer is sometimes I am and sometimes I’m not. And when I’m suffering it’s OK because it’s not for long. It seems like a question that goes nowhere. It seems like you are the one dodging something here Jack.

            • thomas verzar says:

              hi Larry
              Hear, hear.
              Tom

  134. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Daniel:

    I gave your response you gave me earlier some thought in which you said: “One of the reasons the State of Israel is so dear to Jews the world over is that through it we’re no more that people who just has to suffer the pogroms and persecutions, or pay a special tax just to be left alive, or run defenselessly into the killing pit or the gas chamber. We will take it no more. We will defend ourselves. We will confront our enemies and those who wish to abolish us head on.

    I appreciate what you’re saying here. I really do, but…

    If you happen to feel offended by what I am about to say, I want you to understand that I am only following up on Janov’s own stated beliefs from his writings. I am writing from a temporary vantage point of pure, raw animal atheism.

    What if Arthur Janov is right and our brains and consciousness will be utterly vaporized upon death?

    Wouldn’t that make any cultural group nothing more than an artificially contrived nametag? It would seem like a horrible tragedy to fight for a nametag. (And I’m not just referring to the Jewish identity, but also any other potentially oppressed group.)

    If I was a Jew and I became convinced of Janov’s beliefs that death is the ultimate oblivion of consciousness, the logical thing to do would be to simply renounce my Jewish identity altogether and warn all my friends and family that they are simply fighting a deadly war for an artificially contrived nametag. I would urge them to absolve themselves of any cultural identity, run to a dark forest in Canada somewhere and buy some land to live in quiet seclusion next to a healthy fishing lake trying to live as long as possible, staving off the final nemesis (death).

    I realize we discussed this angle before and I won’t try to convince you of anything, but I still find this whole scenario I described above to be an unsettling possibility worth mentioning on a Primal blog at least twice.

    • Daniel says:

      Guru, you argue with such grace…
      I’m not sure I have a full answer. I think you’re bringing up the big question of what is the meaning of life. I can’t say why people stick to their heritage but I know it’s a profound phenomenon.

      Regarding going elsewhere – first, for some reason nobody is offering this to Palestinians but just to Jews. Second, we’ve tried that before and it didn’t work very well.

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        “Regarding going elsewhere – first, for some reason nobody is offering this to Palestinians but just to Jews. Second, we’ve tried that before and it didn’t work very well.”

        When I was coming home today I realized I wasn’t clear enough in certain areas in my last post. Israel/Palestine is a dangerous land with enormous emotional baggage. I wasn’t meaning that one side should leave and the other should stay. Rather, I am pointing out that according to the Janovian consciousness both the Jews & Palestinians are giant cults landlocked into a deadly battle over what may amount to nothing more than empty words (eg. “holy lands”). This is why I was giving the hypothetical advice for any individuals to leave for healthy places without emotional baggage attached to it. (I meant this for both individual Palestinians & Jews if they have the financial resources for it and have lost their belief in anything beyond materialism/reductionism).

        Personally, I think the situation is eternally hopeless for both sides as groups, neither one will leave, and that will never change. However, autonomous individuals within those groups can decide to leave the area for safer terrain.

        Do I agree with Janov that when we die it’s all over? I’m not sure, but I do know his statements carry very serious implications on how to best live our lives in a broad variety of sphere (including what I mentioned above).

  135. Margaret says:

    Guru,
    now that you repeat some of Daniels words, it seems even more clear there is some similarity between the emotional patterns of Patrick’s feelings and how part of the Jewish people feel.

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      We will no longer be bullied? Yeah…

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Just to clarify for Margaret’s software reader, she said:
        it seems even more clear there is some similarity between the emotional patterns of Patrick’s feelings and how part of the Jewish people feel.

        I responded: We will no longer be bullied? Yeah, I can see the similar themes as well..

  136. Margaret says:

    Larry,
    that was so well worded!!
    M

    • Larry says:

      🙂 Not sure what was, Margaret, but thank you for the complement. When do you leave for the seaside with your friends? Mmmmmm. I can hear and smell the sea already, and the feeling of good times with friends. I could use some of that. I’m jealous.

  137. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    sure, it all matters.
    restoring or rebuilding up the house, maybe in a safer way if we have learned not to leave a candle burning near a curtain.

    as you say, it is not a question of either that choice or that one, it all matters.

    i do think when we get back in touch more with ourselves, it also becomes easier to work on living in a healthy way, and vice versa.

    M

  138. Daniel says:

    Jack, I’d like to reply but I gotta run. I will do that later or tomorrow.

  139. Patrick says:

    Larry said “Kruse’s is a theory about becoming healthier through nutrition and exercise” and I will reply ‘down here’ as the comments get too ‘skinny’ otherwise. Anyway Larry it seems to be that is the kind of statement of which great (and little) mis-understandings are made…………a bit like someone saying ‘oh primal scream therapy that they did in the ’70’s, is that still going I thought all that was all given up on’……..it may satisfy to kind of put things into ‘boxes’ like that…….but I would more see it that Dr Kruse is trying to REALLY understand the nature of the organism, body and brain and how they ‘connect’ what is REALLY going on…………something I feel ‘primal people’ and the ‘primal establishment’ have largely given up on so in love with their own ‘certainties’ that they no longer feel the need to look ‘outside’……………but I think it’s important to look outside……..sometimes it’s rainy and sometimes it’s sunny……..certainly here in Ireland the weather is of endless interest………in LA it is more possible to contemplate one’s own navel…..the weather is always the same so no interest there………though I am aware you live in the prairies where I am sure the weather is of great interest also………

    • Patrick says:

      Also sometimes someone is pissing on your leg and they TELL you it’s raining………..

    • Larry says:

      Correct me if I am misunderstanding. What I hear you saying Patrick is that Kruse has all the answers you are looking for. I would think you’d be a happy devotee of his. But instead what I hear more loudly from you is that you are disappointed and hurt by, even angry with the group of primal people you hang out with, angry with us because we are close minded navel gazers.

      • Patrick says:

        Not quite Larry, I don’t think he has all the answers but neither does ‘primal’ at least the way it is now IMO. My dream maybe fantasy is some kind of synthesis of both but I don’t imagine he would be interested nor the PI would neither. So I feel like a little boy wishing his parents would see things the same way which interestingly was kind of my situation as a child. I wished for peace and harmony and got a lot of differences and conflict and never being on the same page……

  140. Margaret says:

    have to react before reading the rest of the comments.
    Patrick, who specifically do you aim at when referring to ‘the primal establishment’ who do nothing but staring at their navels?

    what on earth do you base that on?
    how dare you insult Barry and Gretchen like that as that is what you did, and then I don’t even refer to all other primal patients that you keep offending with your projections of your own distorted views.

    this is exactly why looking inwards could help you as your view on reality is so very coloured by your own fears and misconceptions.

    you bring yourself down by throwing around these unfounded accusations and insults.

    M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – would it ‘satisfy’ you if I was to say “it’s just my feeling” would that meet with your approval………………because it IS my feeling (and actually based on some ‘knowledge’ also but let’s forget about that here at least)

      • Patrick says:

        Also Margaret – Gretchen and Barry can speak for themselves they are big girls and boys. And like the song says

        I hope you know, I hope you know
        That this has nothing to do with you
        It’s personal, myself and I
        We’ve got some straightenin’ out to do
        And I’m gonna miss you like a child misses their blanket
        But I’ve got to get a move on with my life
        It’s time to be a big girl now
        And big girls don’t cry
        Don’t cry
        Don’t cry
        Don’t cry

        • Patrick says:

          That song is so great I HAVE to put it on……..I did before but anyway, also Margaret I will send it to you privatly so you get it…..I wonder Leslie if you like it as you seem to have a good ear for music…….

  141. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    Patrick….Patrick:
    You’re a business turnaround specialist, aren’t you? Can you tell me what went wrong in trying to turn around this failing Frozen Yogurt shop? (8 minute video)

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – you just wasted 8:24 mins of my precious time……………..

      • THE Ultimate Guru says:

        Another demerit?

        • Patrick says:

          No no demerits for this. But I AM a bit puzzled what’s the point, I find these kind of business guys annoying anyway but this was all far too ‘meta’ for me. Reminds me though of an old comedy thing on BBC called “The Rise and Fall of Reginald Perrin” which was super funny, this just left me cold completly.

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Well, that’s too bad. I suppose everyone has different…..uhm….”tastes” in humor, then, and I should be realistic by expecting that some people will poo-poo this video.

  142. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Patrick and Jack
    I don’t normally do this, but I am sending you guys a web address for you and everyone else who is on the blog to see and take in the absurdity of your comments, theories and hypothesis regarding peace in the middle east.
    You do not have to go back in history any further than today. Today there is a country composed of a multitude of nationalities, races and religions, where all people practice their beliefs and respective religions, protected by LAW. All people have the right to vote, educate themselves and make an ass of themselves, without fear of being lashed, hung, killed etc.
    The people of this land have no other wish, but to be left alone and to live their lives as they see fit. They harm no one, that doesn’t harm them and their children,
    On the other side, there are people who want nothing more than to exterminate them. They teach hatred in their kindergartens, schools and playgrounds. They kill their own if they refuse to become suicide bombers.
    Are you two living in a fairy land, or what? Do you really think Jack, that it will be ever possible to have a united country with these Arabs/ Muslims who want nothing more than to exterminate a whole nation? Really?
    And Patrick. Do you really know what you are talking about? Aside from spewing your venom, what exactly are you bringing to the table? Since when are you a fountain of knowledge of these matters? You scour the media, who we both know is totally biased, and pick and chose those ideas that fit your neurosis. The fact is, in my book you are anti-Semitic. Let’s call a spade a spade, it’s time.
    You seem to forget that you participate in a therapy developed by a Jew. You are on this blog, because a number of Jews tolerate your intolerance, believing that one day you will get to your ” feelings”. In my opinion, take stock of yourself and stay as long as necessary in Ireland and contemplate how you can mend your ways. And by the way, Ireland did contributed to the demise of JEWS in the WW2. And Ireland is not too helpful in today’s conflict either.
    What may be extremely helpful to both of you, is to go and visit the Middle East. talk to people on the ground, families who lost their kids to wars, families who are happy to sacrifice their young for Jihad. Isn’t it interesting that Israeli hospitals take care of Palestinian casualties, who then sometime come back with a vest packed with ammunition, ready to blow up those that lent a hand.
    You two live on a different planet.
    I am running out of patience. What is happening today is real. People are dying for all the wrong reasons.
    I will submit some other videos for you to watch, in your spare time, and get informed. I restrained myself up until now, but I really had enough.
    And you Patrick. Instead of taking on what Daniel is putting forward for your own good, you hose him down. No wonder. You are a true bigot.
    Tom

  143. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Boys
    Here is an other statement by an other statesman.

  144. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Boys
    Here is an other statesman’s statement. Jack and Patrick! You have a job on your hands.

    Sleep well.
    Tom

    • Patrick says:

      Tom – I’m not sure what the point here is. I would take it that eneough abuse might drive someone crazy (like this guy) or maybe he is just making a cheap speech. Either way I don’t think it ‘proves’ what I feel you want it to prove which if I can guess is…………………these Arabs are crazy irrational nutty and full of hatred and vengance which to me is actually a ‘racist’ attitude . Which I feel you have towards Arabs, come to think of it you could be called an ‘anti-semite’……….

  145. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Boys
    Just found an other peace of light entertainment for your sleepless nights.
    You may want to watch the other accompanying bits of light entertainment. But keep in mind, it was put out by the media. So be somewhat sceptical, OK?

    Isn’t it fun watching a people terrorised night and day? Who knows, they may even pack up and leave and migrate to mother England, or even better, Ireland. After all, both countries need their economy boosted. And who better than a people who educate themselves, invent things in their spare time, and generally add value to any country they are “invited to live in”.
    Oh, I shouldn’t forget, occasionally their hosts do turn on them, confiscate their property, burn their houses, destroy their businesses and just for fun, murder them.
    I understand that there are other parts of the world, where the poor Muslims get killed by their own kind. In hundreds of thousands. Who is speaking up on their behalf? Or does their plight get lost in the Jew hating frenzy?
    Oh well. Tomorrow is an other day. An other dawn.
    Tom

    • Phil says:

      What I think is that these issues are unlikely to be settled here on the blog or people’s opinions changed and so it all ends up being useless. To know better I would have to visit Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank etc to talk to the people and see first hand. I wish there could be a good solution to this problem which everyone could live with but it seems very unlikely. Phil Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:49:28 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  146. Patrick says:

    Daniel – I want to say I have ‘enjoyed’ if I can use that word debating with you. You are reasonable and fair minded I feel or at least you try to be. I would think no minds were changed by all this certainly mine hasn’t but that’s ok. Changing minds it turns out is very difficult………….

  147. Miguel says:

    Tom,

    I totally agree that the Jews deserve their own state after being persecuted for so many years and expelled from many countries, only because they were different, or they were doing well in business, by envy, all for reasons totally unjustified.

    Jack, wouold you trust a soldier who instead of defending you uses you as a human shield and as propaganda?

    These terrorists soldiers hide themselvers among women and children in hospitals, schools to use them as shields and as propaganda. For them it is more important to let the press get in than to attend a wounded child.

    The Catholic Church has evolved towards freedom and tolerance, as most beliefs. However some beliefs are rooted in the Middle Ages and into fanaticism and intolerance. For them, the Western world is dangerous because we represent freedom, tolerance, human rights, freedom of belief, etc.. right for minorities
    For them we are infidels and those who think different as them must be destroyed.

    Many people in Europe defend them and in doing so are advocating hatred and intolerance, and want to go back to the middle ages.

    The state of Israel want to live in peace, live and let live. They have the right to defend themselves. So is it a crime?

    Jack on which side are you?. On freedom or fanaticism and intolerance. You know what they do with those countries with homoxesuals? Do homoxesuals in those countries have any rights?

    Jack do you know what the word Islam means?

    I do not think I must impose my belifs on any body, be it Primal therapy or some others beliefs, but I do not want also anybody to impose their belifs on me.

    Miguel

    • Phil says:

      Miguel, A comment on what you wrote to Jack: My understanding is that there are many moderate and moderate Muslims. There are intolerant extremists in all religions, it seems to me, and this is an ongoing problem.

      Western policies and actions are actually promo ting the growth of Muslim extremism. In recent history Europeans and Americans exploited Middle East nations for their natural resources. Zionism was a part of this attitude. All the injustices from the past can’t be rectified but all of this led to the current mess in the Middle East. Phil

    • Phil says:

      I meant to say “there are many moderate and modern Muslims”. Phil Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.

      Philip Banco wrote:

      Miguel, A comment on what you wrote to Jack: My understanding is that there are many moderate and moderate Muslims. There are intolerant extremists in all religions, it seems to me, and this is an ongoing problem.

      Western policies and actions are actually promo ting the growth of Muslim extremism. In recent history Europeans and Americans exploited Middle East nations for their natural resources. Zionism was a part of this attitude. All the injustices from the past can’t be rectified but all of this led to the current mess in the Middle East. Phil

    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – I hope it is ok to ask you if you are Jewish or part Jewish. Hopefully that’s not considered ‘anti-semitic’ but your beliefs seem odd to me given how much you know about history and all the rest of it. I cannot see Israel other than the rebirth of colonianism and all the worst because it is ‘hidden’ under another agenda. I understand people have different takes on things but that’s mine and I can’t see any reason to think otherwise

      • Phil says:

        Almost the whole world is against Israel in regards to it’s policies on settlers and military actions. In the UN it is only the US and a puppet nation such as Costa Rica, which will usually support Israel on these issues. Policies of the US are distorted due to money in politics. No politician can a thing about this. It’s a very sad state of affairs. Phil

        • thomas verzar says:

          Hi Phil
          Do you really think that the ‘settlers’ are the main issue here? And the ‘military actions’?
          Israel has withdrawn from Gaza a few years ago. Agreed to at least three peace treaties in the recent past. All were rejected by the people of Gaza.
          Now then. We come to military action. How would it go down with you, assuming you live in New York state, if Canada decided to launch approx 60,000 missiles into your population over the years. Traumatise your family and especially your kids.
          Would you turn the other cheek? Naughty, naughty. Stop that. And if those rockets keep coming, how would you defend your family and kids? What kind of deal do you think would make the Muslims firing those rockets stop? They are made in Iraq and Iran. Financed by Qatar and a few other friendly nearby states.
          You would defend your own country! You would defend your family!
          This is about survival!!!!!!!!
          Tom

          • Phil says:

            Tom: I think Israel will promote it’s long term survival by negotiating with the Palestinians and coming up with a comprehensive solution. I see that there’s a 72 hour cease fire in effect now and it seems widely agreed that nothing was achieved by either side in the current conflict. I think Israel is obviously in the drivers seat with this because of military and economic power. Gaza’s economy is strangled, that is the main immediate issue for them and Israel wants security. What’s really needed is a comprehensive agreement. I think it’s true what I said that almost the whole world sides against Israel because of it’s policies and that isn’t due to anti-Semitism. I think the US suffers from the same strong tendency to lash out with military power which creates many more problems than it fixes. I’m thinking of Iraq and Afghanistan. Phil

            WordPress.com

            thomas verzar commented: “Hi Phil Do you really think that the ‘settlers’ are the main issue here? And the ‘military actions’? Israel has withdrawn from Gaza a few years ago. Agreed to at least three peace treaties in the recent past. All were rejected by the people of Gaza. No”

          • Phil says:

            Hi Tom, Going back to what you said here, I’d probably be upset with those crazy Canadians launching missiles and would want to defend myself.. But I’d also want to find out why they were doing that. Some good reasons would probably come out. But Israel has been fighting the same war for 70 years and isn’t going to survive in the long run the way things are going. Just take a look at a map of the Middle East. The US should also look closely at why it’s targeted by terrorists. I think there are actual issues which can be addressed. Phil

            WordPress.com

            thomas verzar commented: “Hi Phil Do you really think that the ‘settlers’ are the main issue here? And the ‘military actions’? Israel has withdrawn from Gaza a few years ago. Agreed to at least three peace treaties in the recent past. All were rejected by the people of Gaza. No”

      • Jack W says:

        Why are you upset, fearful or angry about being called “anti-Semitic”? It’s just a word/phrase OR are you very so, so, so sensitive to being called names.

        My mother used to say to me as a kid:- “sticks and stone may break my bones, BUT calling me won’t hurt me” Yet! so many of us get upset being called one thing or another. Big deal … and come to think of it, you’ve done more than your fair share of calling me all sorts of things. Many true, but more to do with your vindictiveness (my word) than letting the world know who Jack was. .

        I tried to keep it simple:- by not liking you anymore, and re-acting by ignoring you …after the first email that started this whole debacle. Then you coming onto the blog to (presumably) make it public.

        Between you and I, WE’VE caused many to flee the blog. Tim for one.

        Jack

    • Jack W says:

      Miguel: I appreciate your comment and read ti carefully: You ask which side I am I on .. simple:- I’m on the side of humanity and the ability of all of us to live our lives as we deem fit… providing that we aren’t imposing on others, and that includes our babies

      It’s the diving up of one people with another that is the problem, as I see it. I wouldn’t know a Jew if I met him in the street, unless he was wearing his yarmulke, There’s more differences between the sexes than ever there is between a Black male, a Jewish male, a British male and an Irish male and any other human male. The same goes for females. We’re all one but somehow (my take because of neurosis) that we separate ourselves for neurotic reasons rather than REAL reasons like:- … I like …. or I do not like ….

      What bothered me at the time it happened was the preemptive war by the Israelis to take more land from their fellow Semites after the creation of Israel in 1948 or whenever. on the pretext that they were surrounded by ‘enemies’. Then why did they pick to settle in that ‘nick of the woods’ knowing they would be surrounded by enemies and the seemingly the FEAR of Israelis continues to exist to this very day. It’s all effect, effect, effect, effect ad infinitum..

      Hence we now have innocents being slaughtered just so the politician in Israel can seem to be defending their RIGHTS (no sure who gave them that “right”) but they are sticking with it and seemingly winning the battle … but I would warn … perhaps losing the war. and who told Moses that it was “The promised land” It’s similar to the cardinals that vote who the next pope will be … but the one person at the voting table that is for ever missing is ‘God’.

      Geeze we humans are such a fucked up species.

      Jack

      • thomas verzar says:

        Hi Jack
        You refer to a pre-emptive strike by the Israelis ‘ to take more land”. Really? Is that what you think it was about? It had nothing to do about wanting to protect their population from the messing of the surrounding armies of all neighbours intent to annihilate all Israeli citizens.
        And then there are ‘the innocents being slaughtered’ Were you referring to the hundred of thousands of Muslim innocents by any chance, slaughtered by their own kind? Or were you, God forbid, referring to the Palestinians used as a shield by Hamas?
        As far as Moses is concerned, you need to check back with him.
        Israel exists today. Get used to the idea.
        Over the last 2000 years or more,many nations came into being, for a period of time, and then were consumed by neighbouring people, coveting their land, civilisation etc..
        In our life time look at China, USSR, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, just to name a few.
        Are you implying that all nations, countries, civilisations should roll back the clock? So to speak, and try all over again? That would be a hard call, and more importantly, impossible to execute.
        So, Israel exists today. Get used to the idea. Forget about abolishing money, it isn’t going to happen. Not now, not ever. What exactly do you think that would accomplish? A BIG FAT NOTHING!
        I looked up the word ‘effect’: According to good old Google it has three meanings:
        1, a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
        2, the lighting, sound, or scenery used in a play, film, or broadcast
        3, cause (something) to happen; bring about
        I am not quite sure what you mean here. I am having problems with your definition of Israeli action.
        And pray, who are the innocents here? The Hamas? The Sunni? The Shiites? The Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Egyptians, who refused to take in the so called Muslim Arab refugees? How Many people have these people have killed, of their own kind, without You, the UN, and other “democratic bystanders even said BOO?
        And why do you bring in the issue of gays here? Why do you separate them from the rest of the world? They are human, aren’t they? They do have equal rights in most developed societies in the western world, don’t they?
        Oh yeah, I forgot. They do have a problem being gay in the ever so lovely Muslim world, where they tend to be hung, tortured and killed.
        And what makes you think the human kind was any better 100,000 years ago, or 50,000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago?
        Just something to think about.

  148. Miguel says:

    Tom,

    I totally agree that the Jews deserve their own state after being persecuted for so many years and expelled from many countries, only because they were different, or they were doing well in business, by envy, all for reasons totally unjustified.

  149. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Boys and Girls
    Here is an other major achievement by Semitic cousins.
    http://www.pravmir.com/45-christian-institutions-mosul-destroyed-occupied-isis/
    It looks like they have it in for all religions, not just their cousins, hah, Jack?
    And Jack. Really? Do you really think that our cousins would live peacefully with all other religins amongst them? are you totally oblivious of what they are doing to Christians in the existing muslim countries? This includes not just the Middle East but Asia and Africa as well.
    Do you really believe that these Muslims will accommodate and live in peace with anyone else? when they cannot even live in peace among themselves?
    Have you heard of Jihad? Do you get what it really means? THE EXTERMINATION OF ALL OTHER PEOPLE< WHO ARE NOT BELIEVERS? but then there is the problem that they cannot agree amongst themselves, how to go about exterminating all others. Hence the 'conflict' (Iam being subdues here) between the various factions of Muslims,
    But, if you find the magic formula that works, let me know, and I will be your soldier.
    Rest well.
    Tom

    • Jack W says:

      Hey Tom: I don’t see even married couples being able to make it: let alone others of one religion or the other. and yes I have a formula … but I’m keeping it a big secret … but if you promise not to tell anyone else; I’ll let you in on the formula. Promise to keep it to yourself and don’t even whisper it to another … Promise … OK then here it is and it’s so fucking simple:- JUST ABOLISH MONEY … and then voila, you will see so many other things fall into place and, I suspect, (though I would ‘bet the store’ on it) that even parenting would mean that only those wanting a child for the child’s sake … would enter into that habit … unless they automatically wanted and would love that child … all the way from inception to adult-hood.

      It ain’t that long ago that even factions of Christianity couldn’t even get along with one another and I suspect even within Judaism, the various factions were at one another’s throats. Give the Muslims a chance .,.. it’s a much more recent religion and they too need to evolve (if that’s the correct word) to our level of “fuck-up” before they can merely just bad mouth one another.

      Incidentally in this ‘nick of the woods’ you can shoot the other guy cos it’s constitutional to have a gun … and use it … see George Zimmerman and Travon Martin for a start, and then the police force here are brilliant at choke holding a hapless street vendor and killing him

      It’s a slow process and we in the west spent at least 2,000 years getting it organized … or disorganized as the case may be.

      I feel Tom that:- for Arabs and Muslims; you have your biases. Not that I’m without mine.. Stop thinking we westerners are so fuckin ‘holier than thou’

      Jack

      • thomas verzar says:

        Jack
        I don’t have it in for Muslims nor Arabs. I do have it in for people who take a stance based on prejudice, ignorance and lack of empathy.
        There are 1,600,000,000 Muslims in the world. A fairly large percentage of the world’s population. Probably somewhere between 15-25% are blindly intent to hold the whole world to ransom. After all, they murder their own kind in the name of Jihad. I wonder how many in the last 30-50 years? 500,00, 600,00 people?
        What do you propose the rest of the world should do to” educate or eradicate these zealots? Oh yeah. Tell them to abolish money, and their troubles will be over.
        Tom

    • Patrick says:

      Tom – I have never done this before re-posted something I had already sent. Could please for a change calm down and THINK a little, try to stop ‘reacting’ and just repeating your prejudices. I know THINKING here can get kind of a bad name, but it DOES have it’s place. We have a brain presumably for a reason to use it. If you could absorb some of what is written here you might advance your ‘understanding’ just a LITTLE bit, a then a little can lead to more and more and before you know it you might be getting somewhere. All these ‘videos’ etc that you post are NOT convincing, it doesn’t matter (to me) how MANY of them you do……………….(repeat post below)

      This (below) was written by the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, and, as it was strategically important it was suppressed and was never released to the public until many years later:

      “There are people (the Arabs, Editor’s Note) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another … if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.”

      • thomas verzar says:

        Patrick
        The Prime Minister of Great Britain, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman was a visionary. And Scottish, if I am not mistaken. Oh, all right. I am not going to hold that against him.
        However, I do not understand what has he got to do with the present day conflict where the whole World is trying to come to grips with the Muslim Jihadist extremists, who have already taken a liking to Britain, Scotland, Ireland and number of European countries.
        Are you saying that you wish he was alive today, so that he could use his cunning and intellect to deal with the Arab/Muslim issue?
        I am not quite sure where and how could I advance my ” understanding” just a little. And of what?
        You are being a little too subtle for me here.
        Oh yeah. And what are those prejudices that you are referring to?
        I am not trying to convince you of anything. All I want to do is have you and the other co-blogers see some other facets of this conflict, not what is just conveniently presented by a prejudiced media to lot of people. But on the other hand, the media couldn’t get away with their prejudiced and distorted view, unless they are preaching to the same minded people. Right?
        Tom

        • Patrick says:

          Tom – to repeat what he said “a foreign body (Israel to spell it out ,,) should be planted in the heart of this nation (the Arab world to spell it out….) to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars”

          “never ending wars”………….isn’t that what happened and is happening. Tom it’s an old British strategy practiced and perfected ON the Irish it’s called “Divide and Conquer” not that it ever worked completly on the Irish they were a bit ‘divided’ to begin with.

          Divide and Conquer – EXACTLY what Israel has done in the region, sow chaos and destruction and complain and laugh about it later. Not the mark of a good people, neither are the British or the Americans IMO, they have now gone global with this way of doing things. And the world is burning up…………..who’s next Russia, Iran, China more and more wars……sad and disgusting……

          • thomas verzar says:

            OK Patrick. I am slowly getting it. I have no exception to your posting above, August 6, 2.18 am until the last paragraph. I am not with you on this.
            How has Israel ‘Divided and Conquered’ in the region. And sow chaos and destruction, and COMPLAIN and Laugh about it later. Please explain. And i do not want to jump to any ill informed conclusions here.
            You make the statements, you back it up, OK?
            What sort of cataclysm are you postulating here? There is nothing new on the world scene. We are never a happy people. We like wars and destruction. Seems to go to the heart of our primeval first line brain, don’t you think?
            Over to you.
            Tom

            • Patrick says:

              How has Israel ‘divided and conquered’….well Iraq, Libya, Syria, Lebanon…….all part of their ‘handiwork’ and want to do the same to Iran and once that’s done someone else…..endless paranoia and fear…….their own survival of utmost importance the others not at all.

              No I don’t think ‘the primeval first line brain’ in entrained for war……..isn’t that kind of basic to ‘primal theory’ or can that be tossed too…………

              • Daniel says:

                Iraq? Libya? Syria? Lebanon? Israel has divided and conquered only those countries? You give them too little credit my friend.

                You seem to have forgotten the civil war in the Sudan, the conflict between India and Pakistan, and the one between the north and south Korea and the one between China and Taiwan. And what of Putin’s demolition of Chechnya, most certainly orchestrated by the Israelis? And what about The Troubles, there were Israeli fingerprints all over them too! And I’m not sure why you left out Ebola, clearly an Israeli spread disease. And that Indonesian plane gone missing (it’s in Tel-Aviv), and the other one shot down over Ukraine by those war-mongering Israelis.

                Personally, I don’t think it’s just the Israelis, It’s the Jews!

                Come to think of it, it’s Janov!!!

  150. Patrick says:

    Phil – I have to give you your ‘props’ for hanging in there and keeping a clear mind (at least from my point of view) on some of these matters. You live in a country (US) with almost over-whelming propoganda in the other direction but you keep your head about you. Also I presume you were born in the US which makes it more difficult. At least us ‘Europeans’ have been exposed to something different for the most part, that’s why I wonder where Miguel is coming from…….

    • Phil says:

      Hi Patrick, Thanks for saying this. You’re right, the propaganda is all in the other direction. It was striking for me to seewhat the new mayor of New York City said a few months ago about Israel, that AIPAC (the pro-Israel lobby group) would “always have a friend at city hall”. Like there’s no question about it. This statement actually created a controversy amongsome American Jews, who aren’t supporters of Israel’s policies, who thought the statement outrageous.Maybe a slip of the tongue on his part, but he was just sayinghow it is, politicians must proclaim their strong friendship with Israel, andcompete over who is the best friend, or face not getting elected. The US has huge leverage over Israel but can hardly use it. This is a large partof the problem.Phil

      Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 07:30:20 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

    • thomas verzar says:

      Patrick
      What exactly have you ‘Europeans ‘ been exposed to, that our American friends missed out on? Please explain. Don’t just make statements.
      Tom

  151. thomas verzar says:

    OK Jack. Here we go again.
    I thought I jump in, and respond to some of your postulates before Daniel gets a chance to read your post, due to the time difference.
    First. Did Jews contribute to their undoing over the last 5774 years or so? If being educated, meaning, at least reading and writing for over 230 generations would create envy amongst the general population of mostly primitive people? The answer is YES. Having strong family values amongst the illiterates? The answer is YES? Having an incredibly strong regard for life? Then the answer is an unqualified YES. Oh, and then there is the question of ETHICS.
    I am not saying or implying that all Jews adhere to all commandments at all times. But, all you have to do is to observe the majority of them, and you can see a civilised lot of people, way before other civilisations woke up to that.
    Really Jack. It is no mystery. All you have to do is read the TEN COMMANDMENTS. Then you will start to have some insight of Jewish Achievement over the last 5774 years.
    Why do you concern yourself with the “roots of the conflict being over 3000 years old”? Who cares? We are dealing with today’s issues. Irrespective when and where they originated.
    As someone wiser than I said earlier on this blog, you cannot turn the clock back. Deal with the present problems.
    Not only did the Jews live in the present Israel for centuries, they lived there for over 5000 years. And there were no Arabs there then. Back then, there were no Muslims laying claim to the land. And if the present Arab countries absorbed the 1,5-3,0 million Palestinians, in the same way as Israel absorbed the millions of Jews from the world over, including those that had to leave their Arab countries, there would be no conflict today.
    You really are a dreamer. Do you seriously think the Hamas, Sunni and Shiite Arabs would ever agree to one country, housing them together with these Jews, whom they swore to annihilate first?
    Get real. Do you think I or the majority of Jews today, give a shit what the rest of the World think? The World, who that closed it’s eyes, to the murdering of my families, all the Jewish families in WW2, And again, the World saw fit, to turn on the Jews, the Israelis, for wanting to survive. It doesn’t matter what the Arabs are doing. It doesn’t matter that the Arabs have already shown to the Western Civilisation that they are next.
    Tell me Jack. What would be your reaction if rockets were landing in the neighbourhood of your mobile home park?
    Tom

    • Jack W says:

      Tom: I have read three times, very carefully, what you wrote in this comment and I have listed 9 (nine) of your points and will answer each one (after giving each of your points some considerable thought not just now, but also in the past. Many of the question you raised I have been thinking about for a long long time (Specially before I did therapy as I was one of those guys who was TOTALLY into my head.

      I am not sure if I will be able to make clear your comment and my response and would if I could put my responses in another color but that’s not possible as far as I know so I will indent my response on the next line and hope it is makes it clear Here goes.

      1) “Did Jews contribute to their undoing over the last 5774 years or so?”
      I have no real knowledge they did, OR didn’t, but from what I THINK I know about psychology I would take a guess and say “yes” … they must have done. Why were the British so hated around the world in the 19th and early 20th century?
      2) “If being educated ….”
      Being educated (as I pointed out in my book that you read is not an accolade IMO. Learning Maths, Science, Grammar, History, Geography, and failing to teach how to live is a huge blunder that one we humans do. No other creature is so stupid. Schools are prisons for children, IMO
      3) “All you have to do is read the TEN COMMANDMENTS”
      All laws and especially those laws laid down thousands of years ago are an hindrance to life and the living thereof. To quote Charles Dickens “the Law is an ass”
      4) “Why do you concern yourself with the “roots of the conflict being over 3000 years old?”
      Simple:- as one Jew taught me namely: Jack Solomons alias Werner Herhard it’s all effect, effect, effect effect ad infinitum
      5) “Deal with the present problems”
      Those that ignore history are apt to repeat it” So the saying goes
      6) “Not only did the Jews live in the present Israel for centuries, they lived there for over 5000 years”
      The state (nation if you will) of Israel was created just after WW2 Prior to that it did not exist … or so my history book told me. .
      7) “Do you seriously think the Hamas, Sunni and Shiite Arabs would ever agree to one country?
      I think Phil answered this question very succinctly when he suggested that the U.S. created the terrorist Calling the other guy a terrorist is part of one own mind-set and we British were brilliant at do that … hence ‘HATED’
      8) “The World, who that closed it’s eyes, to the murdering of my families, all the Jewish families in WW2”,
      Since the camps were ‘so called’ discovered at the end of WW2 and apparently many Germans were not aware of their existence. However Churchill railed against Hitler way before many other British politicians did. I don’t think (though I could be wrong) that Hitler broadcast his intentions for Jews, Gays and Gypsy’s in “Mein Kampf”
      9) “Tell me Jack. What would be your reaction if rockets were landing in the neighbourhood of your mobile home park?”
      I’d risk being out of breath and RUN like fuck … that’s assuming that I hadn’t already been maimed by them. My life is way more important that my trailer … OR, the park

      In one sense Tom I consider you to be someone that I have been having a dialog with for some time and as such feel I know you well, as I also feel you know ME well. You are one of the few people that bought a copy of my first book and read it. Some of the points you mention are in that first book. I say this to let you know that I do think carefully (best I can) about what I say and before therapy would mull over many points that I felt about the world that I had been born into. However I will admit being the neurotic I am … I have my biases. I can’t speak for anyone else..

      Jack

  152. Fiona says:

    Mum – why couldn’t you just hold me like you meant it?
    It would have been nice to be loved

  153. Fiona says:

    Why are there 2 comments ‘stuck’ at the bottom of the thread? Anyone else have an odd post order?

  154. Fiona says:

    I have no time for trying this pathetic bickering trying to sort out politics, history or changing someone else’s opinion! I really wish you guys would fucking stop it. I have NOT read it all – refuse in fact! I simply see glimpses as I post M’s comments. Wont even read the barrage of whatever comes after this blurt of my own ranting rage! Pointless – all of it – mine too

    You guys try to convince each other of your own point of view; your own depth of knowledge and perceptions as you relate to them – and all it does is create resentment and initiates a reaction of defence in the others. There’s no way you are getting through to ‘them’, ‘this time’ either!

    You are all ‘deaf’ to what can be ‘seen’ in others, and ‘blind’ to what they are ‘saying’. You get a ‘taste’ of their feelings and ‘touch’ on nothing but your own ‘bitterness’.

    No one else IS you – or sees the colour red as you do! They see their own version of refracted light upon degenerated retinas, and may fucking well call it orange.

    Give up the struggles – you can’t change them – they don’t want it….

    I can only change me

    seems you don’t want to

    • thomas verzar says:

      Fiona
      Point taken. For me, it is not an issue of convincing anyone of anything. This is a free for all blog, after all.
      It is about not letting anything go by me, that smells of prejudice and reeks of anti-Semitism. I will not stand by, as my ancestors did, to my desolation and loss,and be annihilated, whether on this blog or out there.

      • Phil says:

        Fiona, It is a good point. And Tom I understand that these issues are much more for you. We all have our reasons for thinking the way we do. There is just so much crazy and painful stuff going on in the world that it’s better to stay focused on what’s close to home. In my case this type of a debate can be a distraction. Because at my house these kinds of things were discussed and important family matters (like me) weren’t given attention. So it’s too easy for me to get caught up in it. Phil

        Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 01:11:11 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

        • Larry says:

          I suspect it’s easier to focus outward and talk about world problems than it is to focus inward and deal with the people and problems immediately in our lives

      • Larry says:

        I’ve never seen this side of you Tom that you’ve shown recently on the blog. It feels to me like you are growing.

    • Jack W says:

      Fiona: Is there a feeling in there?. Worth investigating … yeah!!!!

      Blogging isn’t all about being ‘lovey dovey’ or, to use Patrick’s phrase “pussy footing” Triggers are what happens in real life and my take is Primal Therapy is a means of dealing with it. But then what would I know????

      Jack

      • Larry says:

        Jack, is there a feeling in there for you.. Seems like you always get triggered by Fiona. Seems like you don’t like what she writes on the blog.

        • Jack W says:

          Larry: There’s always a feeling there for me. I (hopefully) live to be always IN a feeling. AND … believe it or not I’m getting good at expressing it. I love it, I love it, I love it, Being in feelings. They make me alive and I’ve been having them ever since birth … and even before when I was in the womb. I celebrate them. Yipppppeeee

          So! since life triggers me ALL the time I have to say that I feel (you see; another feeling) that is what life is about …. for me at least. I just hope Larry that for the most part you too can have some feelings and express them and if reading you on this blog I get the feeling (there! another one) that you too have them. Only that many of them seem to be devastatinly sad ones … cos from what I read of you: your childhood was unutterably devastating.

          To be serious for a second:- what Fiona’s comment did to and for me was I thought like Margaret has come across sometimes as WANTING the blog what she/they want it to be. I don’t think Gretchen set the blog up to be anything other than a forum for everyone wishing to contribute (to quote Barry), to put ones “two pennuth in”. Gretchen did say some three years ago that the blog was not censored.

          So at the risk of playing therapist (that I am won’t to do) I did feel that Fiona could have expressed it a little more simply and directly. Summut like:- Oh! you fuckers goin off about Israel and Jews and all that other bullshit pisses me off … especially that smart arse (the English spelling) fucker Jack … who thinks he so fuckin cleaver

          So! Larry I hope that answered your question ………. about what was going on … down in the depth of my belly.

          Jack

  155. Patrick says:

    Since people were talking about ‘inside/outside’ I thought this was interesting……..

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/06/mindfulness-is-self-help-nothing-to-change-unjust-world

    • Larry says:

      Focusing on just in, or on out, or only talking about it but not doing much to change life, is not addressing the problem. I always get a kick out of this Monty Python parody of one of the commonly prescribed remedies for how to tackle difficult life problems.

      And yet there is some truth in the parody. It is important to have a vision on the good that can happen in life and strive for it, because just sitting around brewing about what’s wrong doesn’t effect change either.

      The balance between in and out, and acting upon life to make it better, is the ideal, Patrick.

  156. Jo says:

    Funnily enough, the whole debate about politics, between the boys, seems to state exactly why there are wars, and unsolvable issues between countries.

  157. Jo says:

    Funnily enough, the whole debate about politics, between the boys, seems to state exactly why there are wars, and unsolvable issues between countries.

    PS(Trying to post this at the end) PPS (hoping the “war” will end)

  158. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Boys and Girls
    An other day, an other unspeakable event.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/bondi-racist-bus-attack-jewish-schools-on-alert-after-eight-males-threaten-to-cut-schoolchildrens-throats-five-teenagers-arrested/story-fni0cx4q-1227015860427?nk=af062ffe34452467ebe545a0477aa1b4

    Check this out. It happened right in my backyard. Yeah, in liberal, democratic, ‘fair go’ Australia.
    Now you may get a sense of why are my feathers ruffled. It is an unheard of event over here. Not that anti-Semitism doesn’t happen here as well. But nothing like this, threatening young school kids.
    When the Jews/Israelis say,NEVER AGAIN, they mean it. I mean it.
    There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of behaviour. Not here, not now, not ever, not anywhere.
    So don’t tell me we are having a discussion, or an exchange of ideas in a drawing room. What I want to hear from you guys is, what are YOU doing about it? How do you stop the spread of this evil behaviour? I don’t want to hear talk. I want to hear action.
    Don’t give me drivel about the Middle East. You have no bloody idea what is really going on there. What just happened in the quiet backwaters of this world, in Sydney, is only the tip of the iceberg.
    By all means speak up for the Muslims. But make sure you speak up for The Jews and Israelis. And their frightened children.
    Kapish?

    Tom

    • Patrick says:

      Tom – and just speaking for myself here I find these ‘clips’ you put on so pointless and like they are meant to ‘prove’ something…………..to me they don’t except some people are very ferreting out so called examples of ‘anti-semitism’ I suppose to distract from the horrendous war crimes of a Government. So a few kids in Australia got rowdy what the f….. point here??

  159. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Patrick

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/06/laurie-blank-follow-up-on-gaza-proportionality-and-the-law-of-war/?tid=hpModule_04941f10-8a79-11e2-98d9-3012c1cd8d1e

    This is particularly aimed at you. You always go on and on about how the Palestinians are done in by the Israelis. Often you and others, allude to proportionality in this conflict.You often quote savants in your various arguments and meanderings.
    So now you can read about the ‘legal’ definition about the above, for a change. Don’t let that deter you from taking sides and shouting on the mountain top as to how ingrate the Israelis are.
    Over to you, mate.
    Tom

  160. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Boys and Girls

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/-10142h.html

    You may get an insight into the Middle East conflict with the help of this article. The conflict has bugger all to do between the poor Palestinians and Israelis. It is part of a much bigger picture.
    So feast your eyes and be brought up to date on what is really happening out there.

    Tom

    • Patrick says:

      Tom – I refuse to click on these as I know they are just more of your pointless, clueless ‘sources’. Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees. It just occurs to me and hopefully not ‘playing therapist’ too much……………it might be a good idea if you were to lie down, climb down off your hobby horse and think a little and maybe ‘feel’ a little and who knows where it might lead……….

      • thomas verzar says:

        Patrick
        Pray, tell me. which trees am I not seeing here? Do you have some hidden sources that you deliberately kept away from us, uninformed peons?
        Tom

      • thomas verzar says:

        Patrick
        I missed your ditty about my pointless, clueless ‘sources’.
        How would you know?
        Tom

        • Patrick says:

          Your ‘record’

          • thomas verzar says:

            Hi Patrick
            So you say…..”my record”. Ouch. I feel ;lashed.
            But so that I do not miss understand, can you elaborate a little here. Don’t just make an other grandiose statement leaving me hanging there. OK?
            Tom

  161. Margaret says:

    I am back from a great stay at the seaside with my friends!!

    just opened my mail and saw or heard I am about 80 comments behind on the blog so will have to spend some time reading now….

    talk to you later..

    have to make up with my cat first as well, M

  162. Miguel says:

    Jo
    It is not about politics but rather to see how different beliefs work and how difficult it is to try and change them even among us of Primal Therapy.

    I respect all beliefs as far as they are not dangereous. Mos of them are harmless and respectful of the freedoms of others , but some others can be can be lethal, .

    It’s also about civil rights.

    Jo, I can not imagine a woman living in one of those countries. What rights do women have in one of these countries?

    As our organism and our brains can inhibit and suppress painful and inconvenient feelings and ideas that threaten our stability, we can believe just anything: that white is black and black is white, that there are flying saucers and flying donkeys, etc

    We always almost believe what is most convenient for us not what it is true.

    Miguel

    • Jo says:

      Miguel, the “resolvers” are politicians in disputes, I thought.
      It seems to me there is a dispute going on on this blog, that gets ‘catty’ and heated at times, .. so it just struck me as a little ironic.
      🚒🚑

  163. THE Ultimate Guru says:

    I remember a blog article Barry Bernfeld once wrote where he complained about his yearly(?) continuing education requirements. He apparently would just roll his eyes and sigh in resignation at these unnecessary requirements since they had no meaningful bearing towards working with patients within the Primal-sphere.

    Oftentimes I feel the same way about many of the things I study and read. So much crap out there…An overwhelming amount of crap.

    Just the other day I became acquainted with someone who has written 1,600 articles in the past 5 years (each article 1-4 pages).

    Where does all this verbiage come from? I just don’t have the time or energy to pick through thousands of pages trying to find tiny morsels of lasting wisdom within such a towering haystack of words…

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Here’s just one of those 1,600 articles I referred to above:

      The following list of values will help you develop a clearer sense of what’s most important to you in life, as explained in the article Living Your Values. Simply print out this page, mark the values which most resonate with you, and then sort your list in order of priority. As you scan the values list below, you may find that while most values have little or no significance to you (and some may even seem negative to you), there are those values that just jump out and call to you, and you feel, “Yes, this value is part of me.” This values list is merely a guide. It is lengthy and contains many synonyms but is certainly not exhaustive, so feel free to add unlisted values to your own list as well.
      1.Abundance
      2.Acceptance
      3.Accessibility
      4.Accomplishment
      5.Accountability
      6.Accuracy
      7.Achievement
      8.Acknowledgement
      9.Activeness
      10.Adaptability
      11.Adoration
      12.Adroitness
      13.Advancement
      14.Adventure
      15.Affection
      16.Affluence
      17.Aggressiveness
      18.Agility
      19.Alertness
      20.Altruism
      21.Amazement
      22.Ambition
      23.Amusement
      24.Anticipation
      25.Appreciation
      26.Approachability
      27.Approval
      28.Art
      29.Articulacy
      30.Artistry
      31.Assertiveness
      32.Assurance
      33.Attentiveness
      34.Attractiveness
      35.Audacity
      36.Availability
      37.Awareness
      38.Awe
      39.Balance
      40.Beauty
      41.Being the best
      42.Belonging
      43.Benevolence
      44.Bliss
      45.Boldness
      46.Bravery
      47.Brilliance
      48.Buoyancy
      49.Calmness
      50.Camaraderie
      51.Candor
      52.Capability
      53.Care
      54.Carefulness
      55.Celebrity
      56.Certainty
      57.Challenge
      58.Change
      59.Charity
      60.Charm
      61.Chastity
      62.Cheerfulness
      63.Clarity
      64.Cleanliness
      65.Clear-mindedness
      66.Cleverness
      67.Closeness
      68.Comfort
      69.Commitment
      70.Community
      71.Compassion
      72.Competence
      73.Competition
      74.Completion
      75.Composure
      76.Concentration
      77.Confidence
      78.Conformity
      79.Congruency
      80.Connection
      81.Consciousness
      82.Conservation
      83.Consistency
      84.Contentment
      85.Continuity
      86.Contribution
      87.Control
      88.Conviction
      89.Conviviality
      90.Coolness
      91.Cooperation
      92.Cordiality
      93.Correctness
      94.Country
      95.Courage
      96.Courtesy
      97.Craftiness
      98.Creativity
      99.Credibility
      100.Cunning
      101.Curiosity
      102.Daring
      103.Decisiveness
      104.Decorum
      105.Deference
      106.Delight
      107.Dependability
      108.Depth
      109.Desire
      110.Determination
      111.Devotion
      112.Devoutness
      113.Dexterity
      114.Dignity
      115.Diligence
      116.Direction
      117.Directness
      118.Discipline
      119.Discovery
      120.Discretion
      121.Diversity
      122.Dominance
      123.Dreaming
      124.Drive
      125.Duty
      126.Dynamism
      127.Eagerness
      128.Ease
      129.Economy
      130.Ecstasy
      131.Education
      132.Effectiveness
      133.Efficiency
      134.Elation
      135.Elegance
      136.Empathy
      137.Encouragement
      138.Endurance
      139.Energy
      140.Enjoyment
      141.Entertainment
      142.Enthusiasm
      143.Environmentalism
      144.Ethics
      145.Euphoria
      146.Excellence
      147.Excitement
      148.Exhilaration
      149.Expectancy
      150.Expediency
      151.Experience
      152.Expertise
      153.Exploration
      154.Expressiveness
      155.Extravagance
      156.Extroversion
      157.Exuberance
      158.Fairness
      159.Faith
      160.Fame
      161.Family
      162.Fascination
      163.Fashion
      164.Fearlessness
      165.Ferocity
      166.Fidelity
      167.Fierceness
      168.Financial independence
      169.Firmness
      170.Fitness
      171.Flexibility
      172.Flow
      173.Fluency
      174.Focus
      175.Fortitude
      176.Frankness
      177.Freedom
      178.Friendliness
      179.Friendship
      180.Frugality
      181.Fun
      182.Gallantry
      183.Generosity
      184.Gentility
      185.Giving
      186.Grace
      187.Gratitude
      188.Gregariousness
      189.Growth
      190.Guidance
      191.Happiness
      192.Harmony
      193.Health
      194.Heart
      195.Helpfulness
      196.Heroism
      197.Holiness
      198.Honesty
      199.Honor
      200.Hopefulness
      201.Hospitality
      202.Humility
      203.Humor
      204.Hygiene
      205.Imagination
      206.Impact
      207.Impartiality
      208.Independence
      209.Individuality
      210.Industry
      211.Influence
      212.Ingenuity
      213.Inquisitiveness
      214.Insightfulness
      215.Inspiration
      216.Integrity
      217.Intellect
      218.Intelligence
      219.Intensity
      220.Intimacy
      221.Intrepidness
      222.Introspection
      223.Introversion
      224.Intuition
      225.Intuitiveness
      226.Inventiveness
      227.Investing
      228.Involvement
      229.Joy
      230.Judiciousness
      231.Justice
      232.Keenness
      233.Kindness
      234.Knowledge
      235.Leadership
      236.Learning
      237.Liberation
      238.Liberty
      239.Lightness
      240.Liveliness
      241.Logic
      242.Longevity
      243.Love
      244.Loyalty
      245.Majesty
      246.Making a difference
      247.Marriage
      248.Mastery
      249.Maturity
      250.Meaning
      251.Meekness
      252.Mellowness
      253.Meticulousness
      254.Mindfulness
      255.Modesty
      256.Motivation
      257.Mysteriousness
      258.Nature
      259.Neatness
      260.Nerve
      261.Noncomformity
      262.Obedience
      263.Open-mindedness
      264.Openness
      265.Optimism
      266.Order
      267.Organization
      268.Originality
      269.Outdoors
      270.Outlandishness
      271.Outrageousness
      272.Partnership
      273.Patience
      274.Passion
      275.Peace
      276.Perceptiveness
      277.Perfection
      278.Perkiness
      279.Perseverance
      280.Persistence
      281.Persuasiveness
      282.Philanthropy
      283.Piety
      284.Playfulness
      285.Pleasantness
      286.Pleasure
      287.Poise
      288.Polish
      289.Popularity
      290.Potency
      291.Power
      292.Practicality
      293.Pragmatism
      294.Precision
      295.Preparedness
      296.Presence
      297.Pride
      298.Privacy
      299.Proactivity
      300.Professionalism
      301.Prosperity
      302.Prudence
      303.Punctuality
      304.Purity
      305.Rationality
      306.Realism
      307.Reason
      308.Reasonableness
      309.Recognition
      310.Recreation
      311.Refinement
      312.Reflection
      313.Relaxation
      314.Reliability
      315.Relief
      316.Religiousness
      317.Reputation
      318.Resilience
      319.Resolution
      320.Resolve
      321.Resourcefulness
      322.Respect
      323.Responsibility
      324.Rest
      325.Restraint
      326.Reverence
      327.Richness
      328.Rigor
      329.Sacredness
      330.Sacrifice
      331.Sagacity
      332.Saintliness
      333.Sanguinity
      334.Satisfaction
      335.Science
      336.Security
      337.Self-control
      338.Selflessness
      339.Self-reliance
      340.Self-respect
      341.Sensitivity
      342.Sensuality
      343.Serenity
      344.Service
      345.Sexiness
      346.Sexuality
      347.Sharing
      348.Shrewdness
      349.Significance
      350.Silence
      351.Silliness
      352.Simplicity
      353.Sincerity
      354.Skillfulness
      355.Solidarity
      356.Solitude
      357.Sophistication
      358.Soundness
      359.Speed
      360.Spirit
      361.Spirituality
      362.Spontaneity
      363.Spunk
      364.Stability
      365.Status
      366.Stealth
      367.Stillness
      368.Strength
      369.Structure
      370.Success
      371.Support
      372.Supremacy
      373.Surprise
      374.Sympathy
      375.Synergy
      376.Teaching
      377.Teamwork
      378.Temperance
      379.Thankfulness
      380.Thoroughness
      381.Thoughtfulness
      382.Thrift
      383.Tidiness
      384.Timeliness
      385.Traditionalism
      386.Tranquility
      387.Transcendence
      388.Trust
      389.Trustworthiness
      390.Truth
      391.Understanding
      392.Unflappability
      393.Uniqueness
      394.Unity
      395.Usefulness
      396.Utility
      397.Valor
      398.Variety
      399.Victory
      400.Vigor
      401.Virtue
      402.Vision
      403.Vitality
      404.Vivacity
      405.Volunteering
      406.Warmheartedness
      407.Warmth
      408.Watchfulness
      409.Wealth
      410.Willfulness
      411.Willingness
      412.Winning
      413.Wisdom
      414.Wittiness
      415.Wonder
      416.Worthiness
      417.Youthfulness
      418.Zeal

      At the end of this list of virtues….All the Ultimate Guru can say is, “F-U-U-U-C-K!”

      Too many components to deal with in life…

      • Phil says:

        UG: This is a waste of time, a pointless exercise. Here’s another one: read a dictionary and see if any words stand out. Phil

        • THE Ultimate Guru says:

          Phil” Would you believe me if I told you that article (along with the 1,600 others) was written by a summa cum laude graduate in computer science/mathematics at a well-respected university?

          Maybe it was too much acid??

        • vicki says:

          LoL, Phil!

          U.G., summa cum laude or not, sometimes a good rule-of-thumb is “the more words used, the less is being said”. The more he feels a need to write, the less I feel a need to read it. Also applies to speech.

          — I should add that for me, this is not true when I’m reading or hearing a good story that pulls me in, sets the stage, paints an entire picture full of “life”, and resonates with feelings. So it’s not just the volume of words, but the meaning imbued.

          That long list of his “values” held my interest enough to think about the breadth of his choices for a few seconds, but it’s so intellectual an exercise, that it can’t hold my attention.

          • THE Ultimate Guru says:

            Vicki: You may have already surmised I wasn’t trying to hold anyone’s attention with that list. I would expect almost anyone’s eyes to glaze over and forget about it.

            Having said this, though, consider how many hours of speeches Gretchen has listened to during 40 years of being a therapist. I figure 30 hours per week multiplied by 50 weeks per year being 1,500 hours per year of listening to people drone on and on about things.

            This works out to 60,000 hours of listening to people. If we can’t handle a list of 400 items, how did she handle 60,000 hours? Did she force herself to remain interested when things were excruciatingly mundane or off-putting?

            My real question is that Art claimed that non-neurotics have a long attention span, so is it indicative of some sort of psychological issue when people want to break away from a topic that bores or irritates them? Maybe the person should feel the irritated feeling? Or is it just a natural lack of interest in the subject matter?

            Those things were never clear to me…

            • THE Ultimate Guru says:

              I would assume ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) issues would come into play from a clinical standpoint. I tended to believe throughout the years that the ADHD diagnosis was a farce because it was simply saying a person is not interested in a certain topic. Now I’m not so sure when I bring up Gretchen’s 60,000 hours of listening as an example of a completely ADHD-free lifestyle….

            • vicki says:

              U.G. — I have never imagined that Gretchen listens to “hours of speeches”, as you say they “drone on and on about things”. I believe she doesn’t feel that’s what happens in sessions, mostly, if not all. My own experience is that there’s a lot of dialogue, conversing back and forth between two people — it’s not a speech or monologue. But it makes me wonder if you felt your own sessions were like that, or not.

              It’s true that sometimes what we call “boredom” or “irritation” are indicative of other feelings, but not always — I don’t remember the context of Art saying “that non-neurotics have a long attention span”, so I can’t address that point.

              • THE Ultimate Guru says:

                Vicki: No, I didn’t sense that most of what I went through were speeches or monologues on my part, but it is fair to say that I did most of the talking while the therapists did most of the listening.

  164. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    why do I get the impression you very conveniently happened to refuse to read an article that might be hard to ignore?

    in El Pais there recently was an article explaining how Saudi Arabia and Iran are stirring things up in order to break the existing relative peace between Egypt and Israel.

    I indeed htink it is futile to look at the smaller scale details without looking at the larger picture of the big powerful interests who couldn’t care less about all the victims on either side.

    their own power and income is what counts, and nothing else.

    all the rest comes down to manipulation and senseless horror and endless vicious circles of struggle.

    jo you have a good point, the discussion on this blog shows in my opinion too how there is hardly any interest to listen to and put oneself in the other person’s place, try to look at it from both sides and try and find some kind of compromise or common ground.

    no, instead the only goal seems to prove one’s own truth, and dismiss the other point of view as complete nonsense..

    and sorry, Patrick, but you are among the least flexible there, I htink you are the one always galopping around on your high horse trying to prove your one and only TRUTH.

    this does not lead anywhere at all, I hope this discussion ends very soon.

    this in my opinion has so little to do with religion, but only with power.

    that also sseems to be the case for most of the smaller scale fights and discussions, just males fighting.
    ?

    none of you has any power or influence anyway, and I think you have made your points, so it would be nice if some other subjects could get some attention as well..

    Fiona, sounds like you are going through some hard times.

    M
    I simplify of course, but I do think this ‘masculine’ impulse is manipulated and used by some wealthy and powerful parties who themselves safely stay out of the front lines.

    it is such a sad process as most parties lose, specially the women and children.

    i think all of you guys have a point, but as long as the big drriving powers behind all of this are aimed at winning more territory and wealth in every way, instead of trying to find ways to seek compromises everyine can live with and create some peace, the killing and grieving will go on forever.

    you are all right in a way, but can’t you see this discussion is not productive at all, and not constructive in any way???

    I do not pretend to have any truth at all, what the hell do we know about all the underlying deals that are being made?

    i fear noone will be able to find the truth in newspapers, articles or on the internet, it is all information, some of it more or less objective, but all of it terribly incomplete.

    so please, just keep reading as much as you all want, but well, how long will this keep going on here I wonder?

    where do you guys think it leads?

    I think we all agree on one thing, we want people to be free and safe, and no injust suffering to be inflicted.

    peace, more or less and respect.

    could we possibly leave it at that

    • Phil says:

      A representative solution can be worked out here on the blog. For example, Patrick representing Hamas will stop launching rockets at Israel and cease other hostilities. Tom, representing Israel, under those conditions will agree to start opening the borders so that Gaza’s economy can function. Other details to be ironed out. Later on we can all work on a more comprehensive agreement. Oh, and we all promise to try harder to understand each other’s perspectives and bring the discussion to an end as it is interrupting other business. Phil

  165. Margaret says:

    ps I had the greatest time with my friends.
    very intense, a lot of fun and also very feeling and moving conversations, and some fine swims in the sea..

    cat very happy to see me again, smiley..

    M

  166. Jack W says:

    Folks: Wow the blog seems to be coming so alive. I love it all and I read it all and it doesn’t take all that much time … and then I’m waiting get my lover companion to come over and we’ll make coffee and eat an apple turnover and then well have fun and tell jokes and sometimes have an argument and he’ll tell me to shut the fuck up and then we’ll hug and make up and then again he’ll tell me that joke about the 4 y/o kid that’s talking to his his grandma on the phone who’s trying to figure out her lap-top and the kid says “just press the wi-fi button” … pause, and then he puts his hand over one eye and says “Oh! for fucks sake grandma”. and we roar with laughter

    I just feel like the grandma. Jack

  167. Miguel says:

    Jo
    Not all men are equal, either in primal therapy or outside, as not all women are the same. Not all bloggers of this page are the same wether they are male or famale.

    My point is not inf politics but in the belief system.
    There have been many wars throughout history for different beliefs.

    Nor wars are male thing: remember: Golda Meir first Israeli minister in 1973 and Margaret Thacher (prime Minister of Great Britain) Maldives war with Argentina.

    Miguel

  168. Margaret says:

    ok Jack,
    I see your point, in my case I guess it would be something like, err.., let’s see…
    I find it painful to have to witness how people I care about don’t get to some kind of understanding, but seem to come closer and closer to wanting to lash out to each other.

    it makes me feel sad, seems so pointless and it hurts, I want them to hear and understand each other, respect and possibly even like each other.

    my old feeling is please be nice , please don’t hurt each other, it leaves me utterly unsafe and alone..

    in the present it merely triggers a tiny bit of hurt, a lot of growing impatience and some irritation I guess.

    and no Jack, it does not all need to be love and violins playing, I definitely can even enjoy a good fight, but only if it leads somewhere and gets constructive in the end.

    you filling in what Fiona and me are supposed to want from the blog merely says something about your perception of us, not about how we really are, so hey, maybe you should take some time to look at why you see us in such a sugary kind of sick daylight.

    neither me or Fiona, I think, are soft pussicats who want it to be all l-d, I find that such a stupid expression I don’t even want to repeat it anymore..

    M

    • Jack W says:

      Margaret: you say:- “you filling in what Fiona and me are supposed to want from the blog merely says something about your perception of us, not about how we really are, so hey, maybe you should take some time to look at why you see us in such a sugary kind of sick daylight.”

      Of course Margaret it’s my PERCEPTION of what seemingly is going on with you guys. That’s ALL any of us have about anyone else … and I feel that all the creatures on the planet have the same faculty to one degree or another. So! I felt (just a feeling/perception ; mind) that both you and Fiona and I suspect some others … mainly I gather, by what they and you write … that you get a perception of me perceiving you, Fiona and others “in such a sugary kind of sick daylight.”

      Good to know from a budding Psychotherapist that I have a “SICK” component to me. I’ll see if the pharmacist has a pill for that.

      Jack

  169. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    hear hear, smiley..

    Guru, haha, yeah, good example of a waste of time..

    i scrolled down to number 144 and was still only in the E’s ..

    was curious about the xyz’s but could not bring up the patience to check them out, another smiley..

    M

    • THE Ultimate Guru says:

      Margaret:
      I probably should have warned you a huge word list was coming so you could have skipped the entire thing, sorry!
      I don’t mind wasting time on fun stuff; that’s actually one of my weaknesses.
      What blows me away is how some writers come up with such endless material. Anyway I have to drop all that and trudge back to more busywork. See you later.

  170. Margaret says:

    Jack,
    it is nice to hear you so happy,
    M

  171. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    You mentioned above that there are currently 10,00 inhabitants on the Dingle Peninsuala: that seems very high??? I thought there were much less.
    What day did summer fall on this year over there???
    Donal.

  172. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    You mentioned above that there are currently 10,00 inhabitants on the Dingle Peninsuala: that seems very high??? I thought there were much less.
    What day did summer fall on this year over there???
    Donal.

    • Patrick says:

      Donal – I presume that’s a typo and you meant 10,000. Well now that you mention it I suppose it does but I don’t know where that figure came from, I just heard if from the priest (so must be true lol) and I don’t know if it includes Tralee for example but I suppose not. What struck me though was the 40,000 number pre-famine how high that was. That is an erormous number of people for those times and I presume all being pretty much ‘self-sufficient’…………..until sadly they wern’t

    • Patrick says:

      Sorry Donal I forgot your last question. Funny you should ask………I had really forgotten how cold cloudy and wet the weather is even during the Summer. I came back from England on July 1st and yesterday was the FIRST un-interrupted day of sunshine. And actually not un-interrupted, clouds racing around, windy, periods where the sun dissaperad for a while. So that’s 5 weeks and one ‘good’ day in there. Before I left in June there was pretty much a week of sunshine and that’s it so far. Most days start off cloudy, misty maybe raining a bit but gradually over the day ‘clears up’ and the afternoon/evenings are usually sunny and nice. So it’s always changeable in any day you have all different kinds of weather but I do my best with it and appreciate it as best as I can. After a while I quite like it and I can imagine the LA weather might seem ‘boring’ when I go back

  173. Daniel says:

    Jack,
    I’m sorry for being late in responding to your August 2 comment and the important questions you raised.
    You ask,

    Why do you think that Jews have been persecuted all down time? And do you feel Jews themselves have contributed to being hated/despised?

    I’m not sure there is a complete and definite answer for this. However, I think there are religious, social, economic and psychological reasons for hatred of Jews.

    First and foremost, a world that was brought up on Christian knees was told again and again that the Jews murdered Jesus. For this reason Jews must be punished. By the way, the fact that Judaism continued to exist for such a long time after Jesus and the birth of Christianity is a theological difficulty, as the New Testament with God should make Judaism disappear.

    Second, there is always the hate of the other, the one different and separate, and Jews were different in their religion and customs and in their physical appearance.

    Thirdly, there was economic hate. Some Jews succeeded financially, and one of the ways to explain that was the image of the Jew who got rich by landing money with interest, thus “sucking the blood” of the weak and poor who needed those loans. This sometimes underwent a kind of generalization, for example when lampoons during the Nazi time in Germany blamed the Jews for taking all that is sacred to the Germans.

    Some claim there are psychological reasons, such as the weak and vulnerable always stimulates the urges of the stronger ones to abuse him/her (the weaker one). I’ve even heard an explanation based on projection, namely that people see more clearly in Jews that which they do not wish to see in themselves. So, individuals, groups or nations who behind a cloak intellectual superiority secretly had the urge to dominate others, projected those inclinations on Jews who now became threatening creatures who crave world domination.

    Did Jews themselves contribute to this? I’m sure individual Jewish people were quite terrible and hateful, and most likely didn’t treat others fairly, as any human being can, but I don’t quite know how as a people or even as a specific congregation they made others hate them. Jews throughout history and until the creation of Israel were never an aggressive people; on the contrary, they were quite pacifistic – historically, of the three monotheistic religions Judaism most certainly has been the least aggressive.

    Of course things changed after the creation of Israel, because now the Jews had a state of their own with all the power of a state, and what that state did (and does) was sometimes perceived as the actions of Jews in general.

    Regarding the connection of Jews to the so-called Land of Israel, I’d like to answer that in a separate comment.

    (By the way, what you say about homosexuals appear to others to have an easy and uncomplicated sex life, reminded me of what Michel Foucault said, that as expressed homosexuality was forbidden in the Western world, all the vitality of homosexual life had to be concentrated on the act of sex itself. Therefore, they have benefited from a collective thinking-through of the nature of their erotic life and in this respect know a great deal more about themselves that do other sexual groups, including the “normal heterosexual”).

  174. Daniel says:

    Jack,
    Regarding the affiliation of Jews to the Land of Israel or Palestine, it is far more than just the biblical prophecy about the Promised Land. The Declaration of Establishment of the State of Israel (a very short read) has a good summary of the reasoning behind the attachment of Jews to that specific piece of land. It is there that Jews had for a long time political and cultural freedom and evidence for this is everywhere – I mean real evidence, not the Bible stories.

    The Jews also have some unique characteristics that complicate the matter. First and foremost is that the Jews living today are the direct descendants of the Jews that lived in ancient Israel. This is because groups of Jewish people did not assimilate into the cultures and religions of the countries they were in after being expelled from ancient Israel but kept their heritage and customs no-matter where they were. This is quite exceptional and there are only very few cultures in the world who are similar in that respect (notably in the Far East). None of the other great cultures of the old Near East (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Phoenicia) or even those of Greece and Rome can say the same.

    Even more remarkable is that had a man or a woman from ancient Israel meet now with a present day Hebrew speaker the two could actually understand each other. Hebrew speakers speak more or less the same language their ancestors spoke thousands of years ago in that very same piece of land, the same language the bible was written in. This isn’t true for present day Greek or Egyptian Arabic and certainly not for Italian.

    This is not to say that other people, such as the present-day Palestinians, do not have a similar attachment to that same piece of land, but just to show that the connection of Jews to this land is genuine.

    • Jack W says:

      Daniel: From my own dealing with Jewsih people and that includes more recently the therapist at the Intitute, then in my late youth with the German Jewish guy (also gay) that becme my mentor whose name was Werner Wolfson. I have been very familar with the differences in all poeples within many ethinic groups. My mother, one of the most devout Christians I ever knew, always insisted that Jesus was a Jew. However, I think I related earler about my history of what a “Jew” was, from it being a verb … all the way to being made to stand on my desk by my English teacher and repeating Shylock’s soliloquy from the play “Merchant of Venice”.

      Other than Buhdism and Hinduism for which I know little, I am aware that Judaism is more than just a reigious belief, but ethnic, but many Jews I know are actually secular. From a religious teaching perspective this is a sort of fraudulent concept (my take ‘Crooked Thinking’) Roman Cathilicism, didn’t quite go that far, but did impose upon the children of Romann Catholics to imbue their young, with the notion of a God and punishment (from Saul of Taurus; later St. Paul) of ‘original sin”. Hence; the coffessional. This too is just another example of promoting the “faith” though ‘crooked thinking’ and fear. It is from these concepts that I have … since my devout Christianity up until the age of 19 … become totally secular to the point of deeming ALL religious teaching to be highly neurotic and even dangerous to us as a creature; since it separates us as people, rather than promoting co-operation. It actually creates all those other factors of ‘neurotic humans’ and in consiquence has us to believe that it is a part of our nature. To and for me that is total bullshit and rubish (nothing more than a learned behavior) and something I feel Arthur Janov has been fighting ever since his discovery … but old notions especially those deemed HOLY, don’t reform easily. As I feel that some of the responses to this very blog, show very clearly.

      So Daniel though I appreciate you responding I feel you are stuck, as mnay of us are, in our ethnicity and as such are reluctant to look beyond it. I am first a human, that by pure accident was born on that little bunch of islands… namely Great Britain, and that did not make me special and sure gave me no pride.

      I repeat again for all; and especially you that in one group at the retreat in Santa Barbara when (my recollection) Vivian Janov was going ‘off’ OR ‘on’ about being Jewish and I butted in saying “Qh! stop being Jewish … start being human (pause) stop being British start being Human”. The room went silent for several seconds then continued with someone else issue. If we cannot co-operate as humans … then there is little hope for the contiuance as a speices IMO. My ‘opinion’ stemming from all those feeling I had in the womb and early childhood.

      Daniel … I don’t see that it helps you one iota being Jewish. and it sure doesn’t help me one iota being British.

      Jack

      • Daniel says:

        Jack, my answer to you was about the attachment Jews have to the piece of land called Palestine/Land of Israel, so I’m not sure were you’re taking this.

        Regarding myself – I don’t know what you mean by saying I’m stuck, but if you mean being Jewish without being religious then it’s just a fact that I am Jewish. Does that make me not see beyond my ethnicity? I don’t see how. There are times when the borders of ethnicity are more delineated, like being a Jew in Nazi Germany, or being a christian these days in northern Iraq, and there are times when these borders are less so. And by the way, you can only say that being British doesn’t help you one iota because you have been born a white man (I assume) in the western hemisphere. Were you born a black woman in Bangladesh or Zair you would have killed to be British.

        You say that religion is at bottom neurotic. I completely disagree with that. It certainly can be used for neurotic purposes but still, it’s too impressive a phenomenon to be relegated to a type of personal mental disturbance alone. By the way, it was during my time at the Primal Institute that I began to feel more Jewish, more connected to the Jewish history. I think this was because my family was very influenced by that history and naturally I carried that influence within me, unknowingly for some 24 years. It was gradual and at first I didn’t know why I was, for example, attracted to see movies and programs about the holocaust, which I never was before, but as the years passed it became (and keeps becoming) clearer and clearer.

        So, when you say something like, “stop being Jewish … start being human” you fail to realize that the feeling of being Jewish (or Chinese or whatever) is human. So you’re asking people to stop being human. You’re obviously guided by an idealistic wish to create a better world, but I think the problem with idealistic outlook on humans is that it makes you dislike actual humans.

        • Jack W says:

          Daniel: Being who I am, I am encouraged yeah! inspired, to respond yet again. Here goes … at the risk of boring most other bloggers.

          Daniel you are NOT attached to any piece of land on the planet … If you were you’d never be able to move … not even crawl . If you believe otherwise I would suggest it’s a feeling and NOT A FACT. You are able to walk (presumably) and where you finish up in that walk is your new global position … until you move to another position on the planet. Incidentaly all national borders are puely arbitary. The attachment you talk of is PURELY symbolic or put another way:- a notion: stuck in your head. If you are capable of sticking a notion into your head OR having it stuck in your head when at a vulnerable stage of your childhood, then you are equally capable of UNSTICKING IT (Primal Theory). There’s no such thing as a typical Jew OR, Gay OR, Male OR, Female OR, even Homo Sapien. We’re all unique Yeah?????

          Palestine, Israel, the UK, the US, Germany, even Ireland (Eire) … is a creation of neurotic peoples not actually some fact applicable to all other creatures … especially birds: they fly where-ever they deem fit. We humans should have the same capacity. You actually have a choice to relinquish your Judaism … not that I’m suggesting you ought, but it is a choice and I know two guys who’s mothers were Jewish that have repudiated their Judaism. dunno know exactly why, but they did make a point of letting me know.

          I am trying to broaden the dialog and getting away from “emotional attachments”; that I consider are always changeable … as of when and how we deem fit. Hence my use of the word “Stuck”. Native Americans seemingly have been in these ‘nick of the woods’ for millennium … until Columbus thought (stupidly) he discovered a new land … little realizing that it had been there long before there were creature to inhabit it. Nothing ‘NEW’ about it except to his THINKING.

          One last point: Yes the League of Nations or whomever: designated a chunk of land to be given to become Israel. Why did not the Israelis be satisfied with that chunk of land instead of stealing a lot more in 1968. If the Israelis were to retreat back to just that same, pre 1968 border, I feel a certainty in resolving a high proportion of the Palestinian/Israeli question.

          Keep the dialog broad-based if you wish to keep some dialog with me going Daniel.

          Jack