Remembering Summer comments page two

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  1. jackwaddington says:

    Gretchen: I was under the impression that there would be a new blog article. Seemingly not just a way, I presume to take us back to number one (1) instead of 795.


  2. Larry made a comment to Jack yesterday on the previous page, so out of courtesy for Larry I will copy it here:

    Larry says: “I feel practice what you preach Jack. Drop your rant and find out what’s driving it.”

    THE Ultimate Superstar Guru says: Uh-Oh! 😮

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – thanks I kind of wanted to do that……………but I though it might enmesh me in some more ‘unwanted attention’……………..

  3. Patrick says:

    It’s funny what I ‘accuse’ the likes of Leslie of (cutting me off) I now sort wish I COULD do that with the likes of Jack. That I was ‘strong’ enough and sober enough.

    To be honest I do find myself mellowing towards the Grand Old Man and I think hey be cool give him a chance, he is not so bad blah blah blah……………….but I have to say………….well maybe put it this way he would be a terrible therapist. Pointing out the obvious, shoving stuff back in your (mine actually) face endless repeating of his ‘theories’ judge mentality up the ying yang as in ‘you did better this time’ like some dude ‘grading my papers’ all the time, inability to pick to listen or pick out any subtle shifts. Now I understand he does not did ever really ‘want’ to be a therapist but maybe he should quit PLAYING one then!. I am not a therapist I just PLAY one on an obscure blog that about 10 people ‘listen’ to. I gives me (him actually) the feeling someone is listening and can ‘pontificate’ all day and have the illusion of importance. Pontificate is an interesting word from the Pontiff the Pope. Pope Jack The Second how would that sound? Not so bad huh?

    Pope Jack assumed the throne around 2010 and his reign was undistinguished and marked by rigid adherence to ideology. Critics even well meaning Irish ones were slapped down un-ceremoniously. He seemed un-interested in the details of the Faith and also un-interested in the welfare of his flock. All that mattered to him it seems was religious orthodoxy and no technique was off limits in enforcing this orthodoxy. As he got older he seemed to get even more rigid and lots of people around the Court assumed he had lapsed into a kind of dementia. Most of them ignored him and left him alone except for a very troublesome Irish Cleric called Patrick the Cruel who would not give up criticizing him. There was another one called “Ultimate Superstar Guru the First” who was also somewhat of a critic but mostly keep his peace. As the gap between his orthodoxy and the troubles of his flock grew he did not seem to care. Any ‘evidence’ that would be taken by the average person as a ‘problem’ in the Faith he just saw as more ‘proof’.

    We are talking about him as if it was the past but Pope Jack STILL rules at least in the Kingdom of his own MInd.

  4. Patrick says:

    I was listening to Obama’s talk at the WH correspondents dinner. He said that Ted Cruz (that has nothing to do with Dr Kruse) compared himself to Galileo because he does not believe in global warming. In other words Cruz sees himself as such an ‘out of the box thinker’ that he is that cool.

    And then hmm…. I thought Jack compared himself (he did!) on the blurb of his’ book’ to Galileo AND Copernicus! (a twofer lol).

    Obama said actually that’s not right because Galileo became famous for showing the Sun did not go around the Earth but the Earth went round the Sun but Cruz is famous for believing the whole World revolves around him. And I thought hmmm ANOTHER similarity to Pope Jack.

    I am just having ‘fun’ here so before anyone freaks out and ‘ignores’ me some more you are all free to mock Patrick the Cruel as he has been known as in some circles. Patrick disputes that but he would being ‘Cruel’

    BTW I thought Obama would make an excellent stand up comedian better at it than his ‘job’. Something I also thought about Barry B.

  5. Patrick says:

    Speaking of what the World revolves round. Years ago I saw this comedian Andy Dick (yes that’s his name) say his whole act could be boiled down to “I am the piece of shit the World revolves around”……………I thought there was something ‘profound’ in that. Could I relate? I am afraid yes a little bit at least………………

  6. Margaret says:

    > back to statistics and also writing an article about my way of working as asked for by a small university magazine..
    > have had to take some sad and difficult decisions lately but feel deeply they were right.
    > Patricks representation of the story of my
    > e and my cat is even factually wrong, but hey, he is probably the only one to believe in his own version.
    > also his memory of the things he said seems very different than the reality but well, no comment..
    > it is true I have criticized his behaviour at several occasions, but always with the underlying desire to help him and never to just be hurtful for the sake of it.
    > it is good sometimes he seems to get glimpses of his own act outs and what is not right about them, but I fear there still is a long way to go, and it will be all too easy to relapse I am afraid.
    > have to let go, none of my business, have to go my own way.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      A ‘lapsed’ Catholic………….or a ‘lapsing’ Primaller……………maybe I will have a death bed conversion…………

  7. jackwaddington says:

    Larry: Yes, you are right, I should be doing that.

    Phil: I thought it was inertesting the way YOU put it

    U superstar G: Thanks for reposting Larry’s post as yes, I did miss it


    Maybe now that Larry has said it, others will follow. I will read them all.

    For myself: Larry was not the first to tell me that … I got just that from not only my mother and father but from my siblings, and other kids at school. I will reflect (I promise) on all that was written.


    • Patrick says:

      The Pope cannot be seen as a total hypocrite!. Appearances are important and though nothing will change or is even planned to change it is important not to give bad example to the flock. They are mostly devout and true believers………….but still even they sometimes open their eyes and maybe would have some doubts. But a renewed expression of the Faith should work for now. In the long term who knows but it is important at the moment that the Pope is seen as devout.

      • David says:

        I am happily nontheist, but if Francis could kick over all the traces as he has done the trappings, that Dude would have a wife, ok nod birth control, marry gays, ordaine women, take on social atrocities and govts and continue to commit his ultimate sin, loving people of all colors, and content of wallets, or lack thereof. He’d fire all of those sociopath red hats and invite the dali llama to be his spiritual partner. Edward Snowden would be a consultant on social morality. He’d evolve into buddhism, atheism or, nontheism. I think he’s da bomb !!! He has to be on the political assassination list. Can’t hurt that dude too much on a blog or quackwatch, although the republicans are trying.

        In the 70’s we had a lot of clergy come for therapy. All RC clergy had been raped in seminary by the old Priests. They left the church, married; after therapy. We didn’t have any RC cleric pedophiles, I know it’s clear they are legion however; but we did have some protestant cleric offenders, sexual opportunists, family and spousal abusers.
        But they were all too common in Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Guides, too. The etiology of that whole thing should be publicized. Secrecy never healed anything.

        Come to think of it I think that’s a premise of Primal.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: in an attempt to practice what I preach, I thought to add to my last comment and say what it all did to me.

      It hurt.


  8. Patrick says:

    I was ‘thinking; (a bad habit I have but I promise I will reflect on it and I can even already promise to do better, being ‘in my head’ has been deemed by the Pope a cardinal sin so I will ‘improve’ promise)……….anyway all this talk actually only mine about Popes, the Faith, the flock and so on got me ‘thinking’ (sorry about that I have not purged myself completely but I will adhere to the Pope’s latest penance , coming soon I am sure) anyway where was I…………oh yeah like just doing a survey in my own mind here it seems all the people here are Catholic/Christian whatever you want to call it………………like people who are set up to be ‘true believers’ kind of naive, well meaning a bit dopey, hooked on suffering and their own sins, told that thinking sad thoughts is somehow a gateway to Heaven………. but this whole place is founded run and organized by Jews. And I ‘thought’ (sorry again about that) that’s interesting…………… there something to that and I think (sorry again) yeah there probably is.

    But then I ‘thought’ (my bad) Tom V is an exception he is Jewish……………but actually I think Tom was really brought up and raised as a “Communist” and those guys are as bad if not worse than Catholics in terms of ‘true belief’.So I would say even Tom ‘qualifies’ the Communist part wins out there.

    Of course Jack is a bit of a conundrum then, he is not Jewish but he acts like ‘authority’ here………..but first off he only ‘acts’ he ‘plays’ expert/therapist whatever……………..the rulers actually have nothing to do with him, have no connection and have a ‘hands off’ approach to all his works including his ‘books’. In that way he is what used to be called in politics a ‘useful idiot’………….someone who does someone else’s dirty work, someone who is loyal but does not know what he is ‘loyal’ to, someone who can be counted on to betray his own class and do the work of others who have their own agenda.

  9. Patrick says:

    Guru – what do you think about my ‘comedy’ efforts? Do you think I might have a second act as some kind of Hollywood script writer………… be honest……………

    • If I say “Yes, you’re great!” you will like it and many others will see me as forming an alliance with the blog’s perceived pariah.

      If I say “No, you suck!”…Others on the blog will commend my courage and independence of thought while you may dislike me more.

      I hope you can see what a bad spot your question puts me in.

      How about I just buy a Swiss flag to hang in my living room as a declaration of my strict neutrality, OK?

      • Phil says:

        Guru, A comedy routine; are you laughing or not, no neutral here. I have been laughing, I do think it’s got possibilities. But needs to be tried in front of a live audience. Phil

        • jackwaddington says:

          Phil: the comedy routine has been on-going on for almost 30 years. It was called “Gentle Ginat Moving and Storage Compny”

          I am delighted (somewhat) it makes you laugh. that’s way better than being sad and crying. (that’s not meant to be sarcastic) … unless you perceive it that way … in which case I can nothing about it.

          I am all for injecting fun into the blog (it is another or our human feelings), but also I am not averse to anger either.

          I am inclined to be a little wary of what I consider to be “lovey dovey” for it’s own sake. But then that is just MY feeling/reasoning.

          One other factor I thought to mention was that I am reminded daily, from My Jimbo that I have an ugly side to me. His pet phrases are:- Oh! for fuck’s sake shut up” another is “You don’t understand” and a third is, and perhaps the most telling is:- “You’re on your ‘hoby horse’ … AGAIN. So I am kept aware of my short-comings and … Patrick does put the icing on the cake.


          • Phil says:

            Jack, That is a long running routine you have had with Patrick.You guys must have had a lot of fun at Gentle Giant.I had no involvement with that, of course, and haven’treally been so much involved or targeted here.So I don’t have to take It all seriously. I suppose that isn’tpossible for you.Phil

            Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:25:10 +0000 To:

            • jackwaddington says:

              Phil: The Gentle Giant story is a sort of comedy of errors … on both our parts; I suppose. The REAL comedy didn’t actually involve me, but it was a standing joke with almost all members of the company with two exceptions, they being the two (P & S) involved.

              The only thing I insisted upon from the very moment of Patrick’s entry onto this blog was:- I know Patrick far better than anyone else on this blog (25 years) Of course, it also applied, he also knew me equally well.

              I met Patrick way before he created Gentle Giant; (with his partner), and in those early days we worked together on several moving jobs. At that time I found him to be fun to work with, and laughed a lot at his beef about Michael Holden becoming a “Jesus freak”.

              I was in-on the very beginnings of the company and introduce him and his partner, to computing in the business and lent them a computer. However I was fired within a couple of weeks and on being fired I walked over; unplugged my computer and took it away. Patrick immediately yelled out “Oh no! … we want the computer” … and within minutes I was re-instated. Therein is where the ‘comedy of errors’ started.

              Enough for now; unless there is a general interest in the story from my perspective … which I strongly doubt.


      • Phil says:

        It shouldn’t be a monologue though. Good, but I think the therapist needs to cut in with the punch lines. Phil Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.

      • Patrick says:

        Oh Guru – you are such a fence sitter! No need to afraid even though I can be known as Patrick the Cruel I don’t bite. (one time I told a friend of mine like my Dad they used to say about him “his bark was worse than his bite” and she replied ‘yes but who wants to be barked at all day. I thought that was pretty funny too) But whatever I know I could never be as funny as you so I am just doing my best here. Your humor is so good in short ‘bites’ especcially do you think I might have possibilities for some kind of long form drama maybe it could be classed as a tragi-comedy with emphasis on the tragedy part

  10. Margaret says:



  11. Margaret says:

    > just a general observation to celebrate finally getting the comments mailed from the blog..
    > isn’t there a basic contradiction in promoting paleo on a cruise ship?
    > sailing, rowing, yes, but pointlessly burning tons and tons of fuel to go from a to b to c and back to a, or even having to fly back, does not seem very natural or ecological really.
    > even our retreats seem more paleo with their locally raised organic food from the gardens and orchards, but well, as I said, just a passing observation that occurred to me.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – you are totally right and well spotted! I HAVE sort of mentioned that to Dr K. (insiders get to call him that lol)) actually but I did not dwell on the point. I thought I was already such a ‘nay sayer’ at the retreats I did not want to repeat my (failed) history.

      But sadly what you point out is like a central contra-diction of modern life to do ANYTHING it seems is actually bad for the environment, not actually anything but you get the drift. Since you mention retreats that is also an example and I NEVER even mentioned that one though I was aware of it. I tried to keep my ‘objections’ on point lol

      I like the way you ‘bounce back’ you are not a wilting violet or a shrinking tulip or a fading rose or whatever you want to call ‘primal people’ who are all for exploration until it just gets a teeny weeny bit uncomfortable…………………and then poof there gone…………………

  12. Larry says:

    ……setting up…..

  13. Patrick says:

    Fiona – I address you to see how alert you are or if you actually read…………..well really kidding there but I know you have a problem scrolling down and it get’s worse as the thread get’s longer and longer.

    Well a good ‘short cut’ (and it was Ultimate Guru pointed this out to me when the comments were getting all mixed up date wise I thank him for that) is to go on the right side of the page to “Recent Comments” and click the top one or even any on them but that will instantly take you to the bottom of the page or close to it.. Do NOT click “Recent Posts” Recent Comments just so there is no confusion.

    This might make your ‘job’ just a small bit easier as I know scrolling down all the time can be a real pain in the a.. and since Margaret is such a voluminous writer I can imagine it could to be a lot of work. Hope that might help.

    Now let’s see if you notice…………….read…………….

  14. Patrick says:

    I am reading this fascinating book about the diamond industry “Glitter and Greed” by Janine Roberts and I start to see quite a few similarities to the strategy of De Beers and Janov. Might sound a bit out-landish but I really think there is some similarity there…………………I have to think carefully how to present this without outraging too many more people………………

  15. Patrick says:

    Sins………………………………………………………………Act outs
    Salvation through suffering……………………………Feel the Pain

    There are more but of a kind of ‘meta-physical’ nature that is very personal and hard to explain.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Just thought I might (for the fun of it, or hell of it, whichever takes your fancy) on the interpretation you offered re- your five (5) points:-.
      Sins………………………………………………………………Act outs
      Salvation through suffering……………………………Feel the Pain
      Act-out…………………………………………………………..against our NATURE and hence our REAL health … a bummer
      Sessions………………………………………………………..getting to the real point of whats happening inside ourselves … leave confession to the Cat-ho-lic church
      Salvation (other than the S Army………………………….Feel the feeling and ‘viola’ the pain evaporates
      Groups…………………………………………………………..get to say your “party piece” … something the church never did allow!!!
      Retreats………………………………………………………..’time-out’ from the daily grind of life. rather than running away (retreating) from the retreat site for a couple of days.


  16. dvddoodle99 says:

    This should be called the Four Amigo’s Show. It gets a bit boring for someone who knows none of you. I left therapy in 1987. The old , ” Primal Bulletin Board,” was much more interesting and featured a larger cast. I don’t know if the call and response format is good natured satire between friends or barbed rants between people stuck in their old shit for 25 years. Either way, if you are all entertained then that’s all the site is accomplishing; from my point of view. Barry, bring back the Primal Newsletter. David H; Nova Scotia

    • jackwaddington says:

      David H: If you’re in for some fun from time to time, and sometimes sad stories that might trigger your own, and then sometimes things that ‘piss you off’; then you’re in the right place. If it worries you that there seems to be no progress then just say what you consider propgress to be.

      Otherwise let us know what’s happening in your life … if you care to.

      Jack: presumably one of the amigos

      • dvddoodle99 says:

        Thanks for the tutorial, Jack. I’m so grateful to have that explained for me. Anything can be defended.. Art had a word for that. I’m enormously aquainted with the Primal Process Jack. But this has been a limited cast hogging the lines for years now on this sit com. There’s progress and there’s stuck.
        I’m pissed off that Fred Grey was murdered; that Jesus Heurta was murdered, unless he was Houdini. That’s not primal pain triggering anything; that’s my humanity.

        • jackwaddington says:

          David H: I am sorry that you saw my response as a tutorial. Most new commenters are welcomed, but, as I read you, (though perhps I was misreading you, highly likely), I felt you were seeing most of us to be stuck … without progress. That is why I asked what you considered progress to be. Of course, most of us read at least one of the books of Art Janov and got a sence of what it was all about.

          I personally see the purpose of the blog as a means for respondents to state what is going on with themselves and to express in the own way how they feel. That simple by my reckoning. I was hoping that I was being encpouraging but …. who knows!!!!


        • Patrick says:

          It’s a “free” country as they say even if it is not! (I just heard on the radio 3 states either have made it illegal or are planning to make it illegal to take pictures of cops doing their ‘work’ – hello Police State. This is/was the ONLY thing to make them change their ways) so their is nothing stopping you changing the script of the sit com if you have a better one. Or adding your bit.

          And while I would agree with you there is a strong element of ‘being stuck’ here I feel that too………….there is something about that judge mentality too that reeks of Art. (I also reek of Art but it is a ‘smell’ I am trying to shed with ‘mixed’ results)

          I did it by accident a few days ago but I like making ‘judgementality’ into two words like that it is usually uses as one I think but my making it two it brings out a slightly different meaning………………the mentality of a judge

          Vincent Bugliosi once said people usually have a high opinion of a judge but Bugliosi pointed out a judge is a combination of a lawyer and a politician. Separatatly people typically do not have a high opinion of either one but combined they do. A kind of alchemy there that keeps people ‘fooled’……………………

      • David says:

        I’m embarrassed by this reptilian response now, Jack Just my empty vitriole because I cannot stand any thing that I interpret as calling me stupid, making sport of me or smacking of very serious issues being trivialized. Both were translated through my own pain filter. Shit this is opening that whole Primaldora’s Box again. A whole lot different between thinking about Primal and feeling. I had been confusing the two again. Back in my head between the occassional feelings. Also I know I mostly cry away feelings as a safety valve more than feeling them.
        I have beeen flooded with insights over the past few days. Thanks for the E book. Will read it this week and reply to you.

    • Phil says:

      David, Welcome to the blog! It’s good to have more contributors here otherwise the discussion can get stuck in a pattern. It might or might not indicate people stuck on a personal level. I guess the entertainment level was enough to get you to comment. You say you left therapy in 1987. Do you still work at it on your own? Phil

      Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 00:38:59 +0000 To:

  17. dvddoodle99 says:

    Oh, and sorry, I have no pseudonym to hide behind. So I guess I’m not a player

    • Patrick says:

      Most people here do not have pseudonyms so that’s not a problem. Though “Ultimate Superstar Guru” is getting CLOSE I have to admit. The only other one that comes to mind is ‘Otto’ or “Elephant Man’ or whatever he is calling himself this week.

      dvddoodle99 LOOKS like a pseudonym and SOUNDS like a pseudonym and you know what they say about something that looks and sounds like a (duck) it usually IS.But it’s true dvddoodle99 does not not WALK like a pseudonym but maybe you can explain more………….

      • dvddoodle99 says:

        My stock, though genuine, response to friends, colleagues, or patients, asking my opinion,
        a la, “(tell me what to do..”??? is that their brain is as good or better than mine at figuring stuff out; and you know the why of all that, Patrick.
        Oddly avoiding taking credit for my own thoughts I was a master at assigning them to the notorious, ” I read, I hear, or tha omnipresent, ” they.”
        I liked the format of the Primal Newsletter; and was also hoping to read what’s new in therapy thinking, how it has evolved.
        My best male friend, and mentor, wrote Art a scathing letter after I loaned him my , latest, ” NEW Primal Scream,” accusing him of , “…strangling Primal into relative obscurity.” His issue is that Arthur never encouraged it to go mainstream, that he should have opened training centres for therapists across the US and Canada, instead of fostering the policy of cloistering it to so few venues.
        Now I understand the quality control concerns.

        He believes however that, in terms of therapists, ” …., the cream would have risen to the top, the chafe to the bottom, the misfits weeded out and this valuable gift to mankind ubiquitously available.”
        I’m on a rant now, aren’t I ? Not many folks to talk Primal with on the east coast of Canada.

      • David says:

        It was my little girl’s pet name for me. There were 98 doodles before me when I registered my mail account. Never added a user name to my profile; it’s David.

  18. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > the way you show up here makes me feel you carry a lot of anger..
    > there are better ways to introduce yourself into a new group of people than popping up with a number of well, accusations?
    > if we are that boring, nothing keeps you from coming up with what inteerests you or say what you would rather hear about.
    > Jack invited you in his own way to tell us something about yourself.
    > if you do not want to do so it is hard to pay any attention to your criticisms kind of ‘the best sailors are standing on the shore’..
    > so, what would you like to read about, or what would you like us to ask you?
    > M

    • dvddoodle99 says:

      Everyday, Phil, since 6 months after reading Arthur’s 1st Prmal Scream. Occassionally those out of nowhere little catch my breath feelings and the oh, wow, insights. No wailing and gnashing of teeth in the primal box; often , not a single tear. The feelings that weren’t deliberatly pursued, the ones that just pop up from that old program running in the background.
      Hard not to let the ,” real world,” time demands interfere with feeling something completely; and so the repeats. But much better than not being able to feel.

      • Patrick says:

        “Occassionally those out of nowhere little catch my breath feelings and the oh, wow, insights. No wailing and gnashing of teeth in the primal box; often , not a single tear. ”

        I like that. I was thinking (my bad again) if there is ONE ‘change’ or ‘improvement’ on primal as written down so far is to maybe get away as much as possible from the idea of therapy being identified with sessions, groups, retreats etc. The way I see it now therapy ‘happens’ or not every second of every day. To ‘wait’ for sessions and so on to me is a fatal mistake.

        I am not saying others including therapists have not said stuff like that.but I do feel Art Janov has always to even to this day sort of implies he has some ‘magic technique’ that is exclusive to him and primal therapy. He does not !! That is what I was getting round to about the De Beers corporation. They convinced or tried to convince the world diamonds were very rare and hence very expensive. They are not it turns out diamonds are sort of everywhere and now they can make them industrially but to convince people they could only get the real gems from De Beers allowed them to charge very high prices

        Diamonds are everywhere and so are feelings……………….it was one of Janov’s central conceits that it all had to go through him. Not true. Not true then and not true now. What makes me question him even more is he has never tried to face up to this problem at least in public. Which is where it would count.

        • dvddoodle99 says:

          Absolutely my conclusion. I look back now on my early foray into therapy, needing to impress, envying those souls who just fell into classical, meaningful, all senses engaged, deep Primals , as pretty much bull shit. I wanted it to be real, believed it was real, even argued that point once with my therapist. In the end it’s all fodder for progress. Finally no one to impress; too old!!! hah And now those,” diamonds ,” just arrive on their own out of the process of living. And some days I’m able to see them, recognize and feel them. One, that I had known intellectually all of my life and, ” worked at,” for 40 years, the whole sequence passed before my eyes as I was parking my car. It was like a movie fast framed.
          What I was thinking about was how much I liked my new-to -me car, when it arrived.
          Beyond feeling the extreme sadness came a validation, ” It was true.” the relief was huge.
          My resignation was joy. Some sadness, too, that so much of my life had been wasted stuggling with that story line and those people.

        • dvddoodle99 says:

          Guilty of only 1/2 reading your post before responding. I don’t know Art. Moved some of his furniture once. The main Primal Patient occupation; that and bread baking…
          Whatever motivates that in Janov , and Primal Therapy control, in general has I agree resulted in in becoming one of the best kept secrets. It was on everyone’s lips in the 70’s.I never meet even people in Psychology or Social Work who have even heard of it anymore.
          Has Barry or Gretchen written any books ??

        • jackwaddington says:

          I quote you again:- “if there is ONE ‘change’ or ‘improvement’ on primal as written down so far is to maybe get away as much as possible from the idea of therapy being identified with sessions, groups, retreats etc”.

          I totally agree that most of the time, for me, the feelings comes to me mostly when I am on my own … though at the retreats I was often thrown into a sad feeling of my own … mainly by hearing someone else’ story.

          As I experience it, sessions, groups and also the retreats serve to poke me, I later, often when I have left, reflect upon the session or group and drop into a feeling. From quite small through to quite huge. As I see the whole Primal procedure…once I got the theory behind it all … I saw a whole ‘other way of being’. My therapy placed me squarely in that ‘mold’

          To and for me:- that “other way of being” was simply to be integrated within my body and existence from seeing it ALL as feelings. I watch the PBS news nightly and the major issues of the day … first the Ebola out-break and now the Nepal earth quake are events that make me sad and I will often shed a tear for it. Other events on the news like the police brutality; triggers me into anger and I usually blurt out some expletive about them, and depending upon the valance, might strike a blow into a cushion or my sofa.

          One other feeling that arises occasionally is fear, mainly fear of my own “process’ of my demise. It triggers me into an experience of the most unutterable fear when I was two years old and woke up to an empty house and no ‘mammy’ to come to me … and no idea what next; just:- I am about to die. The other feelings are mostly, fun, happiness, joy and just simple contentment.

          All the above for me is what I now feel I gained from therapy. For me … well worth the price, the time and my journey here to LA. I see it all as:- that simple. No need to philosophize about it or spend a great deal of rationalizing, or thought about it.


          • dvddoodle99 says:

            Simply due to circumstances I have not made a Santa Barabara retreat. I agree with the value of retreats and sessions. My need to impress, to belong, made my early, “Primals,” a bit of role playing. If it was finacially possible I’d be back for sessions, apply to redo intensive; and attend retreats. I believe in the therapy unequivocally. I had more blocks than a retaining wall. Had I been able to stay past 10 months they would perhaps have crumbled.
            I was measuring myself, my ability to Primal, against that hig screen 3D movie screen Primal, image I had conjured prior to coming to therapy. MY childhood lot in life was liar, and failure.

            AS a young Social Work Student interning at a Psychiatric Hospital, the doc who supervised me jokingly said the classifications of mental illness were, mad,sad, glad,crazy, and all fucked up. AFU was me.

            Rambling on in my head now; suffice to say my barriers to therapy were many and well fortified. They have to be to escape being killed.

            In therapy I was sttruggling to get healed to finally have a life and convinced I’d be a failure at it and live on in that misery. I kept that to myself. A bit counter productive. I figured if Barry knew how bad I needed help they’d toss me rather than waste time on a hopeless case. When I didn’t see him after Intensive, I was convinced. You know the really top therapists are saved for the best outcome candidates, the star patients. Kept that to myself, too. Pretty fucked up shit, eh ?

            When back home without anyone to impress, no one to try to get to love me best, I started to see some of those things. My next huge job was to stop thinking, stop trying to create the primal scene, doing it right. Thinking was my stay alive tool as a kid.

            As I gave up trying it happened. A slower process and will likely cover little compared to a guided tour. Without a lottery win, that’s all that’s left for mme. My chance came and went.

            • jackwaddington says:

              David: Something moved me in this comment of yours. I sort of saw what a terrible time you had both in child-hood and also in your cut short therapy. It saddened me. Don’t ask me why … I might figure it out later … unless you have an idea; if so, it would be ok to tell me.

              I personally don’t see ‘mental illness’ the way you describe your supervisor characterized it. I see it as the destruction of what should have been … a normal life in utero and the very early entrance into this world. That said, is it possible to reverse it?? I’m not sure … BUT I do see that some of that damage can be mittigated … such that one can get some sort of decent life from here-on-in. However, I am not into your head so I can’t say that the same might apply to you.

              What I do feel very strongly about is that even for those not aware of Primal Therapy or Art Janov … there is a way to get some recompense. I wrote a second book titled “Feeling Therapy; Real Health: Yourself” where I hoped (maybe foolishly) that I might have something to pass on to others. Arthur Janov read the book and (breiefly) commented back to me:- “It is good but I never sign books because you recommended the Primal Institute as well as the Primal Center. It is concise and fine book” .
              Vivian read my first book and wrote back to me:-“I found the first 5 pages stating principal of Primal theory to be a very good summary. In part 2, I think you risk your strong opinions to be taken as simplistic and hard for some readers to relate to. Neither Barry nor Gretchen have read it though I did give them a copy of my last book.

              Wnat I am suggesting is that I would be willing to send you an e-copy of that book if you would supply me with an email. Mine is No offense if you would prefer me not to.


              • Patrick says:

                Seems to be a great need to get the Janov’s approval………………..I would wonder why. It’s clear they keep you at a distance which I suppose makes the need for their approval all the more. Seems strange after all these years hardly even a basic understanding of anything has been achieved. There seems to be a lot of deliberate ‘distancing’ going on here and you make yourself a sort of ‘child’ to them……………

                • dvddoodle99 says:

                  I wasn’t kicking therapy. Believe me I would if I felt it was appropriate. I was describing defences I came to recognize in my primal box at home. I left to look after my teen age children when their mother moved in with another man. I was sold on Primal when Art wrote the first Scream. It seemed right. I was also exposed to observing the practice of , ” mock Primal, ” as the Institutes call it from then until I went to therapy. The patients were all chronic mental health ,”failures,” in the beginning, psychoses, addicts, suicidal; later, overflow Institute applicants on a waiting list from all over the world. They were all encouraged to wait until the Institute had an opening. Seeing them heal into drug free functioning reasonably content people was beynd exciting.

                • jackwaddington says:

                  You asking “Seems to be a great need to get the Janov’s approval………………..I would wonder why.”

                  Actually I did not need their approval. What they gave me was to read my book/s and comment upon them. There’s nothing else needed. I have done the 30 years of therapy and that was me doing it for myself. For all your “wonderings” that is all I can tell you. I hope that answers your question.

                  Yes they kept their distance, but then they kept thier distance from all patients. That, as I read you, was one of your chief complaints … yeah????.

                  Are you close to Dr. Kruse?


                  • Patrick says:

                    Well he certainly does not keep his distance in the way the Janovs/therapists did. I spent close to 2 days with him which I think is/was good in that it helps take away any ‘symbolization’ or ‘hero worship’ tendencies at least for me. As I said before there were/are aspects of him I question a bit……………but at least I get to do that and not drift forever in never never limbo land as I feel a lot of ‘primals’ do.

                    I think it is an important part of ‘primal’ (as currently done) is to keep that distance and to me it encourages a lot of illusion. This ties into my conceit about Janov being like the De Beers the more illusion you stoke, the more ‘special’ and rare they appear, the more money you can charge, the more the market you can corner, the more ‘warnings’ you can send out first about other therapies and once that’s done ‘warnings’ about anyone else who does primal.

                    A funny thing about Janov he filed a lawsuit to patent the word ‘primal’………think of the absurdity of that primal is a word so basic and so beyond even ‘indigenous’ culture, it is more basic and more common to all humans and even all animals. But this dude tried to ‘own’ it literally make it his. Instead of recognizing it belongs to all of humanity he attempts to ‘corner the market’ and it all has to go through him. In an ironic twist little or nothing goes through him now……………justice I would say

                    “Diamonds are Forever” as the slogan went well Janov WANTED to be forever and it seems with you Jack you are one of the few where he ‘succeeded’

                    • jackwaddington says:

                      We all have a knack of twisting the words of others to demonstrate our own point of view; but you really “take the biscuit”.

                      Janov in the days after I arrive in 1981 did the Thursday afternoon group which I didn’t feel was his keeping any distance. To the best of my awareness he didn’t even make any attempt to keep it secret in that by the time I arrived (7 years later) there were at least 12 therapist. I gather he did not start to issue warnings until such times as he found other psychologist; from just reading his book/s, trying to cash in on it. As far as I know the patent office will only allow copyright to phrases and not single words in the English (or any other language). Such that he does have the right to copyright the phrase “Primal Therapy”.

                      I am of the impression that if others try to jump on the Paleo Diet bandwagon that Dr. K might attempt the same. The whole nature of patent and copyright is meant to protect people that spend time energy and money developing something unique. Arthur Janov certainly falls into that category. He certainly made no attempt to stop my book/s and especially the last one where I was offering a ‘do-it-yourself’. book based on Feelings. So … I am not convinced by your take on this matter. I stated in both books, that no-one has a monopoly on feelings. He did not question that accertion of mine.

                      Looking into my “crystal ball” I feel strongly that there will eventually be a universal recognition of his findings (discovery, and hence the theory surrounding it) and that eventually the medical profession will accede to that. However there is no guarantee that my ‘crystal ball’ has any validity in forecasting the future. One last factor:- Yes I am a fan of his; just as there are many out there that are fans of musician, painters, writers, actors or the like. Being a fan is not the same as creeping up to the guy for recognition. I have stated several times, there are few that know him [personally;- only his writings and work) and neither you, U.S.G, or I, know the guy that intimately. I follow only his therapeutic methodology … otherwise I remain the same flawed human being you have known since those early days, when we both worked a couple of times for Mike Lewis.


                    • dvddoodle99 says:

                      Mike Lewis now there is a name, Jack; Mike and his old Ford pick up and tow behind furniture van. What a scammer! I think Rory ??, pickup truck mover, referred me to him. I confonted him one morning with his dishonest behaviour. He wisely aborteds a move to physically sneak attack me, but promised I’d never work in LA again. I went on to work for Tom Foley and Oyvind, at Moving Hearts, Frank Mulhare, Patrick ?? a few times , and Elephant Move.
                      We moved in some of the same circles.

                    • dvddoodle99 says:

                      Try putting, ” Neurosurgeon,” behind ones name without being certified by the Allopathic medical monopoly.

                  • dvddoodle99 says:

                    Though hardly phyically small, I became aware in post group that I felt smaller and less significant than the therapists, and some patients who seemed to have the , “classic,” , “primals.”
                    Then one night my perception changed and we all were one size, and I perceived my ability to be equal.

              • dvddoodle99 says:

                My supervising psychiatrist was one of the very few mentally healthy docs at the psychiatric hospital; a warm, caring humanitarian, who did not do prescription pad treatment nor ECT; a younger Chinese lady, with a wicked sense of humor, from whence came the humorous def describing her archaic profession. Not indicative of her attitude or practice. And certainly not mine.
                I’m not sure what stirred your feeling. Yeah, I survived every worst that Chas Dickens should never have written you can imagine. I had a good live in grandfather but he died when I was 8. And then I repeated by assembling a cast of significant relationships where I gave and got nothing or got more abuse. You know the drill. I avoid those now. But there’s not a lot to pick from. My only emotionally straight pal is 90, and no longer mentally acute. The other friend here who had years of Primal ,”informed ,” therapy, descended into addiction and after regaining sobriety becoming emotionally inaccessible, after his horribly abusive father died, I gather ending the possibiity or hope of ever resolving that.
                So settling for understanding what’s going down, what the limitations are when socializing with egocentrics and narcissists is a trade off to having a friend who is interested in what I’m about.

                And to be fair I’m not an easy match; non theist, non bigot, non racist, socially and environmentally conscientous, non macho, with an advertised weird belief in equitable sharing and that the well being of all living things is as important as mine.

                Sometimes being all grown up is about that accepting what I cannot change thing. Tears are very healing.
                My 40 year established pension fund got gutted by a frequent trader manager and exposed in the 08 crash. My share of the 200 + million dollar fine was $ 48.62. Just explaining. I believe I have fully felt that. Except for the, “it’s unfair,” feeling. That’s an old one though. I’m laughing about it right now.
                My retirement plans included returning to LA. That is not going to happen now. Reality.

          • Patrick says:

            “No need to philosophize about it or spend a great deal of rationalizing, or thought about it”

            It seems to me you do little else……………….

            • jackwaddington says:

              I get the feeling that your “Seem” (or is it seam) is a bit out of ‘flunter’. However, I doubt that you might be willing to give that some consideration. Just my gut feeling about you … having known you for these past 30 years. But whatever.


    • dvddoodle99 says:

      Not so much anger as angst, Margaret, for the real issues out there, and in my personal life. Not to get , too, ” Primally 101,” here but my mother, I would learn through feeling, brought up plenty of anger in me by constant complaining, never doing anything to deal with those things but try to get someone to look after her and blame all of issues of her own initializing onto other people. Perhaps sometimes in situations where I’m not being paid to be supremely non-judgemental, I still drift into my reptile brain and get pissed off like a little kid.
      And maybe a bit angry that circumstances called me home 6 months short 10 months into my LA stay. But the tool box I was able to assemble has been a valuable ally.

    • David says:

      You are correct, maybe, Margaret. I like to say I have let it go. I actually thought that was true.It makes me sound like a better evolved human. I think hurt is the toughest thing for me to feel. On the other hand you have not a clue who I am. I expressed an opinion. Guess I lost that round with you.

  19. Otto Codingian says:

    Remembering summer.yes it is hot as hell in l.a. and it is not summer. Quick note for posterity. Just about to fall asleep. Black cat wants to be in the room with me and dogs. Cat always wants to lay on edge of bed, which always makes me feel trapped. Then starting to drift off, and I see this recurrent dream of some big big building with many rooms, no people, secret rooms. Immediately thinking of the attic my uncle used to put me in,then I am thinking I should look up other closet-boys on the internet. I guess that is pretty horrific when you think about it. Really trapped and alone. Well I will never feel this feeling, and I would really like to have a better dream than this giant building industrial that has secret panels and walls and hiding places. Good nite

  20. I write this with some apology to Mr. DVDdoodle99, because it seems like he is opening up now and I don’t want to stand in his way….however…

    I felt somewhat of a sense of urgency to type this out before I forget, OK? I do apologize for “stealing attention away from another”. Once I finish this post, I will walk away for a short while, at least.

    Not long ago, I wrote about how music can seem to contribute to mood disorders over the long term because of how it has become a hyper-emotive acoustical drug today compared to ancient Primal man using bird wing flutes 40,000 years ago,.

    Below are three good examples of kick-ass songs that are so fucking depressing to me now that I shake my head in bewilderment at how I listened to such sad songs so much when I was a teenager. I maintain they compounded my depression….Sure, the songs are a beautiful expression of melancholic feelings, but they are so powerful they bombarded my little teenage brain into needing Prozac more than would have been necessary without listening to them and having them reverberate constantly in my mind for days because of my kickass 60-watt Pioneer/multi-way Jensen/sound-absorbing cloth car seats. Creates a bad mindset when trying to study Calculus, you know? It really did….How the hell can I study complex, delicate logic when I was being tossed asunder emotionally by my own car stereo system? My party friends all thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread, and I didn’t know any better or give what I was doing any serious reflection unlike today.

    Warning: Intense Depression Ahead

    The Smiths “How Soon Is Now”

    The Smiths “That Joke Isn’t Funny Anymore”

    Bryan Adams “Everything I Do (I Do It for You)” <—Probably the best-known of the three

    • I’m done now, thank you. Back to DVD and others. I wanted to get this off my chest.

    • Phil says:

      Guru, What I find is that music can help me get deeper into a feeling I’m already having and I’m attracted to it for that reason. An example, Jimmi Hendrix “Blues” compilation; I want to listen to that sometimes when I’m in a really low down feeling, basically feeling like s**t. If I go deeper then I may want to turn the music off as it becomes a distraction I no longer need. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:55:33 +0000 To:

      • Funny you should mention Jimi Hendrix, Phil. “Waterfall” is my favorite of his and it happens to be a cheery song for me. But yeah, I do see much more clearly how I got carried away by music when I was younger. He’s no longer in the business (think he’s dead now), but Bob Shabel was one of the best stereo installers in the country for a time. I wish I had never met him in some ways, LOL!

        • Phil says:

          Guru, I’m going to check out those songs you mentioned later on. If you were to listen to them now they don’t have that effect? To me the grunge rock genre is all depressive stuff and a lot of alternative rock too, but it doesn’t quite do it for me. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 21:20:43 +0000 To:

          • Phil: It’s the same effect today as it was a long time ago, but today I am much more cognizant that the music itself is altering my moods (many times for the worse). It could be simply because I am older & wiser, but I am willing to concede it to Progress in Primalling (ie. learning more about myself and who I am, etc. etc.)

            • Phil says:

              Guru, As a child music was important to me and my brother as well. I remember when I was about 12 and he was 17, his musical tastes were changing. He started listening to Black Sabbath and Mahavishnu Orchestra and similar things. Music having little joy I would say. Jehovah Witness people came around to our house and he took their pamphlets seriously and was talking about Satan the devil etc. I could see how he was becoming delusional, or at least it seemed so to me. Then what happened is he had a psychotic break, which he’s never recovered from to this day. The music didn’t do this to him; he always had a lot of problems Apparently he latched on to it due to his state of mind. Also he attempted suicide by drinking rubbing alcohol. A part of that low down feeling I was talking about besides other things that took place in the family. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 21:37:03 +0000 To:

        • dvddoodle99 says:

          My close friend used Hendix music to access feelings, especially 1st line ,before he had sophisticated language. For him, an accomplished musician, it was the music not the words.
          For me it was words; I write songs. I stopped performing because there was nothing I wanted to be connected with saying anymore.
          A few years ago the music became more important, both Cello and Sax began stirring feelings.

          My choice for moving music moved to raw Rock and Blues. And the way women musicians voice their instruments seems more primordial to me.

    • dvddoodle99 says:

      Worthy selections. May I nominate, ” Hopeless Romantic,” Billy Vera, to that fold. It so strongly stimulated that, ” nothing left,” feeling the critic demanded he cheery up the ending a bit. It still moves grief in me; the first time dredging up my loss of my 4 year old daughter, ater cardiac surgery. ” I live in a dream world of caring and sharing, Of good guys and nobody lies…”

      • Well, the point I was trying to re-iterate earlier today was simply that I don’t regret listening to much less music than I did in the past. It has helped me quite a bit in terms of emotional stability. I won’t speak for others here, but I definitely notice the difference for myself overall. I figure if primal man didn’t need anything more than bird wing flutes 40,000 years ago, it has been easy as pie for me to just listen to absolutely nothing but my own thoughts & contemplations on long drives, etc.

        Why waste our short, fragile lives being bombarded with mass-marketed external acoustics when it can already be difficult enough as it is to discover & unearth our own deepest musings without such distractions?

        • Phil says:

          Guru, I can see about those Smith’s songs being depressive but not really the one by Bryan Adams. Doodle, that Billy Vera video is a good one. I have loads of songs which work with sad feelings, here are a couple: “Leaving on a Jet Plane” by Peter Paul and Mary. My sister gave me an album this was on, and then she left on a plane, she was always leaving. “I left my heart in San Francisco” by Tony Bennett. I’ve never been there but the song gets to me. “The times of our lives” by Paul Anka. A very “primal” song, it minds me of my father. Phil Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 04:24:42 +0000 To:

          • dvddoodle99 says:

            davydoodle is my middle daughter’s pet name for me. It got used when I finally agreed to give up my tech resistance. I vowed when I retired the computer would remain in my old office. My name is David. Now this is sad, some friends call me David, some , Dave, and some, Davey. I unwittingly memorized who uses which version and used to idenitfy myself accordingly when corresponding with each.

      • Leslie says:

        We don’t know each other – but I was and continue to be sorry for you and the unimaginable loss of your young daughter…

        • dvddoodle99 says:

          That is kind, Leslie. Thankyou. I watched a TV movie when in LA where George Burns played god,
          he was in the witness box and at a point in his evidence I was moved to tears. After feeling the feeling and weeping I rewatched it, it was one of those play it over and over channels, and at the same point sadness came up again, but a different facet of the feeling. So I watched it again, same point another feeling memory. This may sound too trivial, but besides feeling I got an educational experience. !st time watched in my buoyant enthusiasm about Primal, I was, ” Yes. It works. I ffelt that and it’s resolved. 2nd time it thought it didn’t work, here I was tied up in knots again, and then found it was a different feeling; and so on. I’ll confess to experimenting with multiple viewings. I should have save time bought a VCR and the movie..hah And I started to learn that I would have to feel some things over and over, some would never resolve.
          At a Institute Halowe’en Party I wrote comic Primally lyrics to the music of the Everly Brothers tune, ” Dream.” The last line was, ” Oh Mr. Janov Primal really is a scream.”
          At the end of the day I give thanks for Primal, I love it, I hate it, I wish I had never heard of it. Sometimes I say I wish I had been a drunk brute long haul driver who believed his wife and dog were to blame for his misery, instead of a social worker, adding the misery of the world to my own personal load. But Primal changed that, too.

          I will never be Primal Man. Most days I’m not aware if that still makes me feel like a failure. I suspect that I am too well defended to be able to access a lot of pain. My mother would say I’m simply too stupid to ever get anything right, I know that’s untrue but some days mommy still knows best.

          I don’t deliberately try but apparently I ‘m good at hiding because people, except a couple close friends, who know me well talk about how strong I am because I have remained happy, smiling, and there for others despite personal adversity. There’s great song, ” Hiding,” recorded by Albert Lee; written by a good friend of mine, about hiding our feellings.

          I never bad mouth Primal because that might prevent someone who needs it from applying.

  21. Otto Codingian says:

    I need to talk. But too tired now. Hope I get a turn later.

  22. Otto Codingian says:

    Ya know what, I am really really fucking tired of this shit. This fucking goddamn shit. This motherfucking goddamn shit that makes up my life. I am reallly really really fucking tired of this shit. I have had e-fucking-nough.

  23. Otto Codingian says:

    Yes, I have had it. I worked really hard to get a job application in by deadline. Then I didn’t read all the instructions carefully so I didn’t include a required form, and I was disqualified. I didn’t really want the job, just the money, so no biggie. Then my friend at work allowed me to listen in to his over-the-phone- interview for this same job. He is very adept at speaking, even though they gave him difficult questions, he did a good job. He relates well to people, he kept his cool, and his confidence. So next to him, I feel like a total schlub. You know I can’t get my mouth open in group. I would have done miserably on the interview. I hadn’t any time to prepare for the likely questions that they asked him because the old dog is draining both Z and me. The house looks like shit, the cat is sick, the other dog has long long nails and I don’t have the energy to trim them. We are very broke and I was actually hoping to get this job so I could pay some bills, even though the job would have entailed so much more work. I am taking off so much time at work, that I definitely would not have been able to do this job. Now some one of Z’s friend’s mother has died, I don’t know if Z is even coming back with the car tonight so I can go to work tomorrow. She is consoling her friend. The head honchos at work, 2 of whom were the job interviewers, keep giving out creepy statements in our meetings, political bullshit, work more more more and you too can go to the top, like the young kid who is going to get this job, who has been groomed to take this job, who this job was created for, yes, even my black friend who did great on the interview, he knows this, all of us at work know this, motherfucking masons, motherfucking bitchholes. Bringing up feelings in me of beatings. That meeting today was a real beating. Old beatings I cannot remember. Or just one life-threatening beating. Mental beatings by being locked in an attic with no food, and only cardboard boxes as friends. The attic that peered down on the pigeon coop where my uncle would pull out baby pidgeons and pull their heads off and encourage me to do the same, and watch as the headless birds stay upright with blood spurting out of their necks, and being encouraged to laugh at it, this is the feeling that I experience at work all the time now, not visually, but just “I CANT STAND BEING HERE! I HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE!” And the rest of my life, the fucking dryer crapped out again. No problem because it is a hundred fucking degrees here in the valley, put the washed clothes on the chairs in the backyard. I cant wait to go back to work tomorrow, cant wait to get a coffee and a sandwich at 7-11, push so much carb sugar into my bloodstream that I feel like I am on heroin, so I can force myself to work yet another day. Good to go to work, because focusing on my job keeps me away from all my shit feelings. Except for today, with the meetings with the asshole bosses and their devious plans and their back-office clandestine closed-door meetings. The cat is howling and I feel like chasing it with a broom, but I don’t have the energy. I could watch porn on the internet, and I could have the speaker turned on since Z is with her grieving friend somewhere, but I don’t have the energy. I finally got more than one tomato plant planted this year, but so the fuck what. Living near the freeway, the tomatoes will probably be poisoned by asbestos and other crap. I cant go to the mens retreat in the desert, and I don’t want to go to the fucking desert and play poker anyways, but I am jealous that people get to do things that I cant. I went to the fucking desert when my 2nd kid was young, with his boyscout pack and I felt so out of place, I am so afraid of people or uncomfortable around people, it is horrible. I just want to get into a room and scream and yell about this bullshit, but I wouldn’t have even done this at the previous institute, because I don’t want anyone to hear me. Making noise got me sent to the attic as a kid. Making noise as a kid got me doped up with something, milk sugar, who knows what. Come on dog, just fucking go to sleep and let me write my misery out.

    • Larry says:

      Your life seems really difficult, too difficult. I feel mine is easier in comparison, yet I identify with yours. I easily feel immobilized. It often feels too difficult to take necessary steps toward change. That’s what I hear in your post, and it strikes a chord in me.

    • Phil says:

      It sounds like your uncle was extremely sadistic and sick. I guess you can’t scream and yell where you are. Maybe the neighbors are too close and it would disturb the
      pets? I use my car in the garage as my primal box. It’s quite cramped but it
      does work as far a privacy. In the winter I bring an electric blanket there in addition to pillows.
      I also relate a lot to your posts although my life is mostly different.

  24. Larry says:

    Huh! “Primally Inspired” recipes and natural living.

    • Al says:

      Dude, I don’t see any organic jelly for my intercourse. . .

    • Larry says:

      It’s interesting to me how 40 years after the Primal Scream, the word “primal” is still felt to have significant cachet in cultural consciousness such that businesses will attach their brand to it to promote themselves.

      • Patrick says:

        Larry – if I can gently disagree again ‘primal’ is word regardless and independent of Janov. Now it’s true he tried to make it ‘his’ or synonymous with him which to me encapsulates many of the qualities which meant ‘primal’ could not or did not succeed as done and defined by him.

        Does not mean it cannot ‘succeed’ but it would IMHO take a pretty serious re-think and re-vamp. Primal as a word was there before Janov and hopefully it can withstand his ‘influence on the word so it will be there after him. And it seems that it is.

        • Larry says:

          Very different perceptions of reality you and I have, Patrick. Interesting what a different tangent your thoughts take. I wonder if it’s hard work to maintain them.

          • Patrick says:

            Larry – No I would not say it is ‘hard work’ and I don’t like the smirky last sentence………….of course you are sure to get ‘support’ here so you feel ‘strong’ enough to talk like that to me. I really don’t like the supercilious and pseudo knowing tone in that……………like you really KNOW? Do you?

            • Patrick says:

              Phil – it’s a good question you put to me…………..if you don’t mind I will leave it awhile as I would probably only repeat myself so let me think about it a bit.

            • Larry says:

              Huh. I was just wondering. No intent to be smirky. You sure jumped to that conclusion quick.

              It’s better not to talk to you. You take things the wrong way.

          • dvddoodle99 says:

            A person who knows Art told me he regretted from the get go using the word , “Primal.” It was a convenient word to describe a phenomenon so different from any patient experience in psychotherapy.
            Why not invite Dr. Janov to comment on this forum, about , ” Primal,” usage and the supreme being image that is painted on him, instead of second guessing the man. He was able to regroup on return to LA. Some people must still regard him positively. ????
            How much negative feeling towards him is transference ?

            • dvd: Where exactly on the blog did you infer that there is a supreme being image painted on Art? Can you doodle the answer on a slightly clearer canvas for us?

              • dvddoodle99 says:

                I recently ,” outed,” my name, “david.” The inference I keep picking up is that many people believe that Dr. Janov construes himself as some superior being. That he is only interested in protecting his turf and the notiin that only he knows how to do the therapy correctly.I don’t know the man. I think there’s an equal chance that others for their own needs and reasons will see him in many lights and they will all more than likely, in some small part, or wholely, be wrong.
                There is no evidence that ,” Primal, ” theory ever emanated from any mind before his ,” discovery,”and no way of knowing if, or how long after, it would have ever been discovered. Putting it out there cost him dearly. Whenever anyone swims against the current of political power there is a price to pay. And BIG PHARMA medicine protects it’s turf. And, thankfully there is a conservative brake to new iideas.
                But I beieve Arthur Janov is owed a huge debt of gratitude for Primal theory.

                • dvddoodle99 says:

                  Oh, ?? your sarcasm drips, ” Guru.” The Inuit have a theory that sarcasm is a childish way to indirectly express misdirected anger.

                  • Patrick says:

                    dvddoodle99 – I thought Guru’s question quite reasonable and didn’t see any ‘sarcasm’ in it. Since the blog seems to be messing up a bit again in terms of where it puts things Guru’s question was:

                    “Where exactly on the blog did you infer that there is a supreme being image painted on Art?

                    • David says:

                      You can reread it but more to the point I am permitted to make my own interpretation and the comment was not directed to you.

                    • David says:

                      Guwrote , maybe I would care to “doodle” more clearly. I say that’s sarcastic. Come on, all of the Art haters allude through their own transference goggles that he holds himself as being otherworldly. I know I sure as heck have not made the contribution to the possibility of regaining mental heath as have he and Vivian, et al who made the cut as certified therapists.
                      I argue more should have been done to force Primal into the prima therapy.position.

        • jackwaddington says:

          The problem therein; lies in the acronym IMHO. If you only knew from whence your, or anyone else’s, “opinion” originated … you might use it a little more sparingly.    An opinion proves nothing in the final analysis, and demonstrates it comes mainly from that solo performer “the left lobe” Jack  

      • Phil says:

        Larry, Businesses may not be referring to primal therapy when they use the word.
        I see google says that synonym’s to primal are: basic, fundamental, essential, elemental, vital, essential, intrinsic, and inherent. I wouldn’t use the word in those senses though.

        Patrick, I don’t know why you insist on remaining with our cult here. I’m guessing we’ve all gotten the message by this point on how you feel about Janov and primal. I’m fine with that, but it’s the repetitiveness that starts to get to me.

        • Larry says:

          I agree Phil. I doubt that the businesses are referring to primal therapy, or that they’ve even heard of primal therapy. What I’m saying is it’s interesting how the word has been assimilated onto the axons and dendrites of western culture consciousness, after the Primal Scream came out. I don’t remember hearing the word primal before then. Google primal, and most or all references to it are dated after 1970.

          • Phil says:

            Larry, that is an interesting point and I think you’re right. Freud made use of the word primal but it doesn’t seem like it entered common usage at that time.

      • dvddoodle99 says:

        I have to doubt if these businesses are piggy backing on Primal Therapy. When I used to bring up, ” Primal,” at professional gettogethers beyond the mis 90’s , psychologists and social workers had never heard of Primal. Once the threat failed to materialize that Primal would, as I believe it should, replace the failed, ” conventional,” psychotherapy, and push psychopharmaceuticals into disuse, sadly, Primal disappeared from the popular lexicon.
        Primal theatened to kill a financially lucrative sick care industry.
        I obviously have never and will never reach the level of Primal experience of those of you with 30 + years interaction with formal therapy, but I saw enough in practical application with other patients to make me an unequivocal believer in the efficacy of Primal theory.

        • Larry says:

          David, I think there are less than you can count on one hand how many here have 30 years of interaction with formal therapy. My understanding is that some on this blog have been in it very briefly and now aren’t doing primal therapy at all nor living it. I had less than 2 years of formal interaction, way back when I started primal, and have lived away from LA since. More recently, I’ve been on this blog for the almost 6 years since it started and in the 6 years started going to the retreats.

          Since starting therapy way back then I’ve been primalling throughout my life, slowly in small dribs and drabs making changes to my life, squeezing out the pain and gradually, little by little coming out of the shell I was deeply embedded in. I find that this blog and the retreats have helped me to see the things I need to do and have accelerated my passage deeper and deeper into my childhood where I strongly resist going.

          Like you I have no doubt as to its efficacy, and I see how each individual is complex in their history, their personality, their defenses and their willingness to look at and change their life and to primal, and the efficacy of the therapy varies accordingly. Primal therapy isn’t magic that easily makes life better. I see some people have a really, really, really hard road to slog to better their life. I see that very few people want to do that. I wish there was a way to help the people in therapy who have a really hard life, but the therapy only works from the individual trying to better their life. I see that ultimately we each have to re-experience the worst of our life on our own, which is the hardest thing to do, and must be almost impossible for individuals with strong defenses.

          • dvddoodle99 says:

            Well put, Larry. Not knowing the other bloggers I wanted to be clear that I have only had 10, but very valuable, months of therapist directed treatment, and then on my own as life
            digs it out and I happen to be up to recognizing it. No magic. But know
            there are real reasons for my imperfections, not imaginary.
            Oh how I wanted there to be magic. One of those keepers of the secret would push my button and I would scream my way into a perfect, happy life.
            Somewhere in those months I believe I lost the ability to kill myself. Somedays I lament that loss. No lack of opportunities to feel pain.

            • Leslie says:

              Thank you Larry and David! This is refreshing to read.

              Absolutely, therapy is a long, drawn out process and it has only been with the skilled and caring guidance and support of Gretchen, Barry, Vivian and Art, Mark and others over all the years that have made it possible for me to get the help to help myself. To now recognize and allow what I am feeling is such a monumental yet comforting sense of being – that I am forever and ever grateful to have and count on.

              From across our fine land :),

          • Patrick says:

            Larry – I wonder if your way of thinking is hard to ‘maintain’. Just to repeat a bullshit question or to quote yourself below………………

            “The reason I wonder is because something is driving you to go on and on, telling us over and over, trying to convince us. … or yourself? … or wanting validation? …or what? Hammering away, over and over, for some reason. It seems like a lot of work. I imagine it would be tiring.”

  25. Vicki says:

    Otto, with all that daily sugar, I would worry you could be diabetic, and is your blood pressure ok? My other brother did not take care of those things, just got up every day and had lost 20 lbs, so he thought he was ok, but he had a stroke over a month ago, and lost serious functionality, senses and muscles. He is unable to drive, in a wheelchair, learning to walk again, regaining his balance, wearing a catheter, on meds just to keep from throwing up all his food, facial left-side numbness, blurry left vision, now on insulin as well as blood pressure meds. It was too easy to have happen, and he lost even more control of his life.

  26. Patrick says:

    Larry – it is hard work to maintain your ideas? What kind of a bullshit question is that? Is it ‘better’ if it is ‘easy’ or ‘hard’? Why don’t you say what you are really thinking? So the question for you is is it HARD or EASY for YOU to maintain your ideas? What are you really driving at?

    • Larry says:

      The reason I wonder is because something is driving you to go on and on, telling us over and over, trying to convince us. … or yourself? … or wanting validation? …or what? Hammering away, over and over, for some reason. It seems like a lot of work. I imagine it would be tiring.

  27. Otto Codingian says:

    Stuck at home again with dogs and cats and hellish heat. Z took car to go see her sister. Worked overtime this morning, and that was the highlight of my day. Pulling old data out of an ancient system to figure out if old computer equipment was gotten rid of or not. It is interesting to me, in that it is a puzzle to be figured out, how to get this data out of a kooky-ass database system. Took a nap, got up and did nothing. Too hot, no motivation. Also, I know that if I start to do something, either the old dog will bark and gutterally talk because he wants to pee, poop, eat, or drink. Or who the hell knows what he wants. Or Z will call me to tell me what a good time she is having, or she will walk in the door when I finally have gotten myself motivated, so I don’t bother doing anything. I finally got started listening to music, which is difficult enough, because most of the music that I like is old (60’s) and it makes me feel old to listen to it. Finally listening to Hair, What a Piece of Work is Man. I didn’t know this was Shakespeare when I was young. That verse set to music is superb. Anyway, I took this girl to see Hair at the Aquarius Theatre in Hollywood, sometime in the late 60’s or early 70’s. I wanted her so bad, and she already had a boyfriend with whom she was intimate; I didn’t know that when I took her. Also took her to see the Doors, was reminded of this the other day when I heard Love Me 2 Times. Anyway, big sorrow in that arena. Don’t really want to think about it. Why the hell am I writing this boring piece of information? I forget. Sitting in my box of a bedroom with the a/c on, dog in lap, no car, no friends, no hope. I am thinking, I would not mind going to some place and hearing some live music and people-watch. I lost interest in doing that kind of thing a few times. One of the last ones was, and this was at least 2 years ago, when I still had .08 percent left of Hope, me and Z went to the Farmers Market and there was a little band there, and I was enjoying listening to the music, but Z got into a feeling about how I wasn’t paying any attention to her, so that was the end of that. I give up easy. Ok, so stuck in prison here, and I am feeling more and more hopeless. Maybe if Z gets back before it is too late, I can take a ride down by the beach with the dogs. Ha! Just kidding. More likely, I will likely open a can of stringbeans for the dogs. Well, at least we are not being bombed by ISIS or anti-ISIS, run out of our homes into the desert. Or at least another million horrible things are not happening to me. Yet.

  28. Otto Codingian says:

    The Retreat, as “A unique and valuable therapeutic experience”, kind of like the Venice May Day Festival tomorrow, as announced by sm. Well maybe i go catch at least one act. Fat chance, I hate Venice. I don’t hate seeing women in their summer clothes, however. But the parking, or lack of it…whatever. Maybe i go scout it out tomorrow morning with the dogs. Don’t count on it bitch.

  29. Otto Codingian says:

    Getting manic. Maybe the moon going into scorpio. At least, I think it is. I will know tomorrow if sex is dripping off the bright blue sky, and women look at me with lust. I won’t be looking at me except with disgust, I didn’t look that good as a kid, but this old face I really don’t like to see. Or I will know if I can figure out worldy stuff so easily, I cant give an example, but maybe I will experience one tomorrow. Kid and Z got back, in the other room making noise playing some game. I should hang out with them but even if they didn’t have the killer dog with them in there, the one who has bitten all the other dogs, I wouldn’t be out there. Kid is whistling and being loud, he wants me to see that he is alive and he wants me to be a dad, and sadly, I am just a piece of garbage. I should have put more detail into my previous post about going to work today. For example, the data I am pulling out of ancient database; what year was the computer purchased, who in the warehouse input the computer’s info into the datanbase, etc. On the surface, boring crap, but all that datae exists because someone or many someones had something to do with that computer being where I work. Like if I were writing a movie, you would see the guy in Washington putting out a bid, some government bean counter kind of guy, talking in a character actor way to a computer salesman kind of character actor guy, in some sort of interesting exchange that I don’t care to flesh out at the moment and I never will. The black guys in the warehouse getting the pallets of computers, and being black around each other, not your movie type of stereotypical black, but more realistic kind of black, like movie sex is, compared to actual sex in real life (or so I have heard). A nurse walking down the hall, thinking about her relatives in the Philipines, but who knows if that actually is what she is thinking, because unlike Hemingway, I shun people and their experiences. The phillipine nurse trying to use her computer and yet it doesn’t do what she wants it to do. Maybe she is thinking about her childhood in the Phillipines while the computer guy is working on the computer. Maybe I could work in a cameo of the SNL computer guy here. Maybe the computer guy is thinking about how his boss came to work also, on the weekend working overtime, hanging out with his dream team, talking behind our backs about us and plotting how to increase their empire of computers and networks. Maybe the Chinese girlfriend of the boss would slither in, wearing her short skirt, oozing sexuality all over the place, and well, lets leave that alone for another day. Maybe the black janitor who is always polite would be there for some reason. Who gives a shit, because I really don’t have the drive I did when I was young and I just don’t care any more. The younger guys there were talking about starting a reality show about this hospital, but I doubt anything will happen because taking pictures here is forbidden. This kind of thinking helped me survive my childhood, which I guess is a good thing…or not. Lots of fantasy and guessing and creating scenarios. I remembered the other day a Flintstones playset that I had, when I was all alone in the living room of our house in Long Beach, probably before teenagehood. Moving the plastic Fred’s and Wilma’s around the little set that looked like Bedrock. I have no idea what I was making them say. Anyway, just another group of lonely days and nights, set around some points of time in the existence. Anyway, look at these lyrics, how can people write this stuff, it is not the greatest of lyrics, but jeez, it speaks to me.
    “Scarlet Begonias”

    As I was walkin’ ’round Grosvenor Square
    Not a chill to the winter but a nip to the air,
    From the other direction, she was calling my eye,
    It could be an illusion, but I might as well try, might as well try.

    She had rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes.
    And I knew without askin’ she was into the blues.
    She wore scarlet begonias tucked into her curls,
    I knew right away she was not like other girls, other girls.

    In the thick of the evening when the dealing got rough,
    She was too pat to open and too cool to bluff.
    As I picked up my matches and was closing the door,
    I had one of those flashes I’d been there before, been there before.

    Well, I ain’t always right but I’ve never been wrong.
    Seldom turns out the way it does in a song.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    Well, there ain’t nothing wrong with the way she moves,
    Scarlet begonias or a touch of the blues.
    And there’s nothing wrong with the look that’s in her eyes,
    I had to learn the hard way to let her pass by, let her pass by.

    The wind in the willow’s playin’ “Tea for Two”;
    The sky was yellow and the sun was blue,
    Strangers stoppin’ strangers just to shake their hand,
    Everybody’s playing in the heart of gold band, heart of gold band.

  30. dvddoodle99 says:

    I have read the comments on the therapists maintaining a distance from patients. I ‘m not friends with everyone I know. I think Primal Therapists pay a huge personal price for maintaining that distance in order to keep therapy the best it can be for patients. Imagine if one of the therapists meets a person as a patient and that friendship chemistry is there. The therapist has to deny herself/ himself that possibility.

  31. David says:

    Spent a 1/2 hour reading the thrust and parry. Hmm, I’m not sharp enough to feel embarrassed, hah. 60 years ago I got pissed off, do they still use such vulgarity in Primal circles??; at a fathers and sons hockey game because the ref gave penalties for falling down to the sons when the fathers tripped them, and credit to the fathers team when the sons scored a goal. My adult cousin put his arm around me and said it was sad I had never developed a sense of humour. I chalked that up to one more personal shortcoming not one more transgression against me. I adored this cousin for always doing nice things for me, but here was the unavoidable truth , he despised me like everyone else. After that I always felt hurt around him and never spoke unless spoken to.
    It never occured to me that you aquainted bloggers were being humorous, sometimes; and between some of you friends. And that throwing out anger and everything else should be.When in the hell was humour officially approved in the official Handbook of Primal Dictum. hah

    I was setting up sound gear for a gig last night, eavesdropping on a conversation involving one erudite self agrandizing gentleman I find trying; I don’t like the phony all important offensive prick and he dislikes me.
    His lines and affect were so sweet I was bristling thinking , ” If you only knew what this asshole is really about.” The other, older, guy began relating a story about his life as a young man when he was physically competent. This, ” prick, ” replied, ” My how wonderful it is for you to have such a healthy memory.” The story teller became speechless.
    The words seemed genuine, from this ,”pricks,” humanity. I was moved to tears for some unknown reason.

  32. David says:

    Jack I went to your ,” author,” site but the send function was not working; tried Firefox; Chrome; IE, browsers with same result. I have Stettbacher’s book. He was convicted of sexual offenses and Alice Miller wrote him off. But then towards her final days and with evidence of impaired faculties she denounced the Janovs and Primal in bizarre proportions.

    David Hardy, the artiste formerly identified as dvddoodle99. Hard to believe there were 98 dvddoodle’s before me and no user space left for david, davey, davy, nor, davee, ” doodle’s”. My middle kiddo was insistent I use that baptismal nomenclature so she could spot my rants from wherever in the world she happened to be. The poor misguided child likes me so I acquiesced.

    • jJack W says:

      David: The site for my last book is:- The self publishing company is AuthorHouse and I believe it is available from The two other alterantrives are:- !) for me to send you, free of charge, the e-copy of the book if you will supply me with an email address 2) I will send you a hard copy; if, after emailing me that request, you will supply a mailing address. I would be greatful to be renumerated afterwrds for postage

      • jJack W says:

        The site (inadvertently deleted in sending the last comment is:


      • Patrick says:

        There’s always a ‘sale’ going on……………….in redundant ideas.

        • Jack W says:

          Are you talking about YOUR ideas???? May be you are referring to your/our superstar’s ideas.
          If you are talking only about mine, I might suggest that my most redundant idea is that I once thought you were ‘fun’ to work with, in the days before the advent of Gentle Giant (aka “Genital Giant” 🙂 or for you 😦 .

          • David says:

            Jack, et al… Ideas. I have a friend who is defended like a steel wall. Her anger is palpable. Her father is a sober alcohol addict. Her mother abdicated her role as enabler and wet nurse to her father and K took it on at age 6 or 7. She hates her mother shits on her constantly and adores her father. Last night she was telling me a memory of her father bringing home a 3 “, 3lb Porterhouse Steak every Saturday night as his treat. He would make a ceremony of introducing it as that, his 3” 3lb Porterhouse steak. She would sit quietly on his lap while he ate it, knowing she should not even consider asking for a piece. After he consumed the whole thing he would allow her to suck the steak juices from the fat and the bone. She beams with pride when she recalls that story. THat poor man who had such a hard life letting her sit on his tired lap, he owned a grocery store, and the plum, allowing her to suck on the waste before he gave it to the dog.

            I could scream, weep for that poor little 6 yr old girl. I have always got along with her now very elderly dad. Professionally I know the family story; he was a drunken, philandering, charismatic, manipulator who impregnated numerous women in the area, married and single, some not very bright. Her mother was the creative brains and stability, behind his financial success, but she stayed in the background because she was embarrassed and wanted people to think highly of her husband.
            I would never scratch the scab on my friend’s story because, well, I think why is evident.
            I welcome any input if I am missing any way. I can help here. I don’t see it.
            I loaned her partner, the Primal Scream, years ago. He was interested. I used to see it on the living room table. It came back never opened I think. Thanks..

            • jackwaddington says:

              David: If your relationship is more than just professional then I feel you need to tell us about that. In any event if K is as “defended as steel” I would suggest there is little you can do. As a friend or lover, you first need to accept her the way she is. From there-on-in, consider if your relationship is worth it.


              • David says:

                Thanks, Jack. Never a professional relationship. I was merely in a circumstance 40 + years ago to know her parents relationship and her father’s behavior. None of them would be aware of that, I had listened again to this story just before commenting. I don’t think I can do anything to help but wondered how other eyes would see it. I can’t even offer a shoulder, the sort that can be interpreted as re-enforcement of her interpretation. I listen pan faced. The most I offer is that I’m sad for her.

              • David says:

                Oh I neglected to clarify, K is the partner of a long time friend and former band mate. I have one of those blood hound faces that attracts people to tell me their stories. ha

                Professionally and personally I follow the rule, ” First do no harm.” I lucked into this wonderful gift of Primal that makes my life better. I feel bad for those that didn’t.

                • Larry says:

                  “I lucked into this wonderful gift of Primal that makes my life better. I feel bad for those that didn’t.” You’re going to feel bad a lot then, because a lot of people didn’t luck into the therapy. Maybe the best way you can help your friend is to keep working on yourself and getting better, becoming an example and inspiration to others and your friend of what the therapy can do. Besides, not everyone wants this therapy, and it’s not necessarily going to work for everyone. I feel it’s up to the individual whether it’s worth it to them to risk the time and energy and do the work to change their life. Sometimes, seconds away or right in an awful feeling, I question whether it’s worth it to face the horrible reality. For me though it always is worth it, eventually. I wouldn’t want to be back there trapped in the feelings that were oppressing me weeks, years and decades ago.

                  • David says:

                    hmm; I’m really not wanting to be a role model. I’m pretty simple. It comes naturally to respect others; I don’t associate with people who hurt others.. My professIonal guidepost, ” unequivocal acceptance, ” was a natural fit for me. I don’t have any need to struggle to try to entice people who are unlikely to be interested in investigating change. Visitors to my home will see several Janov books in obvious places. I don’t judge them.
                    And so I am unimaginably grateful that I got steered to Social Work and an incredible 1st mentor as a result of my old car imploding. Otherwise I would have made money and never have been given that copy of Primal Scream in 1972. And would have killed myself. It took 14 years to earn the extra money for Primal, , and sold my guitars, to travel 5000 miles to LA. where I an overweight sedentary became mr. cargo mover to live. A series of unplanned circumstances…
                    In the mean time I was exposed to, ‘mock” therapy and was a volunteer to receive potential patients at the Primal Centers of Nova Scotia.

  33. Larry says:

    Reality can be so hard. Who would ever want to face its harshness! Who would ever want to do this therapy! But the ones who do it, know the serenity of finally not running, finally accepting reality.

    For 5 ½ years I’ve been mourning the death of my wife. I’m amazed how the crying that I did in the beginning, that hurt so much, barely scratched the surface compared to the depth of loss when I feel it now.

    This afternoon I ran into and talked for a while to a younger colleague at work. She is a reclusive, troubled extrovert, can be sensitive, and now that she knows me is surprisingly open and honest. How are you? she asked. I felt like she meant it.

    I told her it’s not easy for me knowing that I’m likely putting in only one more summer, only one more field season at work, that all too soon I’m suddenly at this later stage of life where my ‘career’ is over and I move into retirement. Where did the years go so quickly? I want to still be back there. I confided to her that the prospect of retirement is not coming easily to me. I explained that I have low grade persistent anxiety about my unknown, directionless future, anxiety that presents itself as a recurring tightness in my chest and periodic uneasy, asthma-like breathing.

    She said, “I think you’re still in mourning. That’s why the prospect of retirement is hard for you.”

    I try not to see it myself, so I never thought someone could see it so easily. As soon as she said it, I knew she was right.

    After work I got home feeling unusually tired, heavy, and uncomfortably short of breath. I had no energy to attend a meeting I was supposed to be at in the evening. As soon as I sent notice that I wouldn’t be there, I needed to cry.

    For 5 ½ years I’ve been chipping away, crying and letting go a little more and a little more. Deeper and deeper I let go of what we once had, and know there is no going back. I feel how pivotal it was to share life, and how alone my life has otherwise been. I bring a towel to my mouth because I feel need for loud expression as I wail and I don’t want to worry the neighbours. I sink into it, louder and more freely, until like a volcano I erupt into a brief spasms of pure in the moment intense feeling and I don’t care who hears it, it is profoundly important to my life to let go all stops and experience this feeling. She is gone and I will never again know the being with her. Not only is it I who wails, but a child in me screams with me at the pure hurt, the unfairness, the outright cruelty to finally have found someone and then have her taken away so soon. It’s too cruel for a child to bear, for a child to have no one. A child would have to shut down to survive.

    Such a deep painful truth is such a relief to feel and accept, but I know there’s more.
    I feel how important it is to let go, to accept loss so if I’m lucky I can be able to let someone else in…for who they are and not as a replacement to shield me from the loss. I don’t want to hold on to and live in the past.

    After the feeling, the band around my chest is gone, the load has lifted from my back and shoulders, my breathing is easy and relaxed, and I feel a little more able to step into my future.

    To not keep this to myself, to have you bear witness, helps my healing and growth.

    • Leslie says:

      It is amazing what you can do, do and then write about Larry!
      So glad you got to know, love and experience the love you and Noreen created together.
      To have all that – esp.after nothing – swept away so tragically and way too soon must be unbearable…
      ox L.

    • Jo says:

      I’m listening Larry…

    • David says:

      I’m wrecked after pushed into feelings by your post. Thank you . I am sad for you.

      • Margaret says:

        > David,
        > well, the more I hear from you the more I start to like you, as you are good at looking honestly at yourself , which is probably the hardest thing to do for all of us, both for seeing what should change, and for seeing what is really nice about ourselves..
        > I like your balanced way of responding, so you are right in what you said about me not knowing anything about you at the time of my first response..
        > it was merely an impression, probably coloured a bit by my fear another angry guy would show up and rant all over the place.
        > but your presence is actually very refreshing, so I hope you will stay and keep adding your comments!
        > you are very welcome here, Margaret

        • David says:

          I was remembering an apres big group friend I met at Coco’s. His life story was bizarre and though he had made a tremendous recovery he would in times of agoraphobic tension react with a echolaic face rubbing routine . He was a kind, sweet person. I felt so sorry for him; an intelliegent, handsome, personable guy. But this , ” tic,” was offputting to others, and he had really no social group, like me. Remembering him recently and my benevolent kind sorrow for him it suddenly occurrred to me , how fucking arrogant I was, I am; fucked up me feeling sorry for him as if I didn’t have as big a problem, as if I wasn’t just as defective.

    • Margaret says:

      > Larry,
      > thanks for sharing that.
      > M

    • David says:

      “To not keep this to myself, to have you bear witness, helps my healing and growth. ” This is also a need of mine, to have someone know my suffering. I have a Primal friend who never says what’s going on with him. He’s sa brilliant since the dawning of humans, flawless Lexicon. That info permeates his conversation. His not sharing which I usually read as his superior not needing to share feeds into my gonna die panic feeling, not as good as, defective…

      • Larry says:

        The primal feelings that I’m slowly more and more succumbing to are childhood aloneness that I had thought were impossible to face. When I come up out of the feeling, you fellow bloggers help me to learn to trust that there really are good, empathetic people out there, unlike my childhood reality. Your existence helps me shift my deeply ingrained perception from one of childhood aloneness on this planet, to one of feeling of connection to good human beings.

  34. Larry says:

    Just maybe, if we don’t foul our nest and kill ourselves off first, we might work it out. The following conclusion quoted from the World Happiness Report gives me room to hope. It imagines how to have the kind of world that I think as a child I expected to grow up in.

    “There is a common social theme that emerges consistently from the World Happiness Report 2015. At both the individual and national levels, all measures of well-being, including emotions and life evaluations, are strongly influenced by the quality of the surrounding social norms and institutions. These include family and friendships at the individual level, the presence of trust and empathy at the neighborhood and community levels, and power and quality of the over- arching social norms that determine the quality of life within and among nations and generations. When these social factors are well-rooted and readily available, communities and nations are more resilient, and even natural disasters can add strength to the community as it comes together in response.

    The challenge is to ensure that policies are designed and delivered in ways that enrich the social fabric, and teach the pleasure and power of empathy to current and future generations. Under the pressures of putting right what is obviously wrong, there is often too little attention paid to building the vital social fabric. Paying greater attention to the levels and sources of subjective well-being has helped us to reach these conclusions, and to recommend making and keeping happiness as a central focus for research and practice.”

    • David says:

      I don’t think it is possible to teach empathy. I believe it’s potential is informed by the early memories stored in the subconscious. I believe we can ask the unconscious to share it’s stored information memories but not teachable. I am convinced the adult subconscious shuts out . negative comment.
      I am not being flippant when I say I ask my subconscious for the location of misplaced item; lyrics to seldom used tunes….It never fails.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: There is both a reluctance and an incentive for me to respond to this comment of yours. The reluctance stems from the fact that initially we may be mostly in agreement. The incentive arises in me in that I feel (just my perception) that you have not have stated it succinctly, concisely or briefly enough for it to make an impact.

      I will take the chance here, in all my arrogance and conceit, to re-state what I feel is the ‘simplicity’ of the our human dilemma. Somewhere along our human evolution, we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’. I know not why, though Bernard Campbell, a Cambridge University professor of Anthropology in England, offered one possibility), .We then became what in psychology is deemed “Neurotic” Freud first coined the word; BUT, I contend, Janov finally defined it. In the simplest sense, this is our problem. Other that Primal Theory, no-one (that I am aware of) seems to have seen a resolution to the problem. Janov has stated over and over again; that until we go back and see the origins of that problem, all else will fail There are many out there seeming to offer a reversal of the dilemma/problem by social, educational or political means. I concur with Janov, none of this is EVER going to work.

      Nothing more that an overturning of our defenses (by that magical process of “re-living”); will we ever effectively resolve it. On the individual level, I see only Primal Therapy achieving that. On a global scale I contend (again) only by the abolition of money … that firmly keeps ‘neurosis’ in place.


      • Larry says:

        You have to admit, Jack, that it is your fantasy that we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’. You have no way to know. It makes more sense that we’ve been neurotic all along, that when we became the human species, we at the same time became a neurotic species. Maybe individuals of many or all intelligent, emotional, social species can become neurotic. It’s likely that our species is the only one that can primal.

        Money is a useful tool. What we need to abandon is how we give it the power to rule our decisions, and instead give other factors precedence such as family and community well being.

        It’s my impression that most on this blog would agree with you that overturning our defenses is a good thing. No doubt, even on their own insights from Primal Theory can change attitudes toward making better decisions to bring about a happier world.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Larry: No! I do not have to admit “‘that we humans abandoned our real nature” IS my fantasy. If we can cure it (change it) then by definition it’s not natural (our nature).

          How long does “all along” constitute? All along through time? or. just from the moment that we become human? As I read Arthur Janov that is not what he believes. Freud apparently felt that way, but Janov argues otherwise and that, to and for me, makes WAY MORE sense. According Janov, as I read him, no other creature turns its young into neurotics. Some domestic animals; principally horses and dogs, can be made neurotic by our human INTERVENTION.

          If money is a useful tool then why all the mayhem in the world, with starving children, wars, police brutality, billionaires whilst many go for a lifetime needing the basic necessities?????? If you and I are the lucky ones, able to have some; how come millions are unable to get their hands and this “useful tool”??????

          I don’t see overthrowing our defenses as a “good thing” I see it, for me least ways, to achieving a life WORTH LIVING. I would insist a “NECESSITY”

          Finally I am not promoting a “happier world” I am promoting a “FULLY FEELING-FULL ONE” Therein is a whole difference.

          So! Larry: it seems we disagree.


          • David says:

            It has been part of my pacifying narcotic, the fantasy that we will ever recover that benevolent ” humanity,” ie: that it become the rule rather than the exception. I disagree that neurosis was part of the founding package. The science of brain evolution, as I understand it does not support that idea,
            My up close time spent with various domestic and wild non human beings taught me that the human brain does not have exclusive potential for kindness, sadness, grief, mourning or planned revenge, in reaction to their real environment. Even being kind protective parents cross species. The abused ones exhibited some of my neurotic behaviors, subservience, cowering. Others were unpredictably given to striking out without explanation.

          • Larry says:

            Disagreement is fine Jack. It seems though that I was misunderstood on one account. I didn’t mean to imply that neurosis is our natural condition. More and more what makes sense to me is that for as long as there have been humans, there have been at least some neurotic humans, maybe a lot of humans a little bit neurotic. Probably even before then.

            • jackwaddington says:

              I didn’t take you to mean that was a major characteristic of mine. I sort of knew what you were implying. However, just as you implied that I could not be certain of my notion; the very same applies to yours. No problem with that from me either. However, if I read Art Janov correctly, then you are also implying that it is his fantasy also.


              • Larry says:

                I think you are telling me that Art Janov believes there was a time, in the early stage of our species, when we existed without neuroses, and generations/millennia later our species took on neurosis. If that is what Art Janov believes, then yeah I think he’s wrong.

                But I don’t know what he believes. I’m just going by what you tell me. If that is what he believes, it would be interesting to know the reasons why. It is interesting to know the evidence, reasoning, and feeling upon which a belief is based.

                Thanks for conversing with me about this, Jack. Not many people want to.

                I think I’m in a lonely phase.

                • jackwaddington says:

                  Larry: I am not exactly sure just where he mentions this, but if I remember rightly; he gives his reasoning. If I find it I will surely relay it to you to read for yourself. If anyone else knows where he stated it and can give the page number and book title I would appreciate that.

                  I sincerely hope you are able to get through this debilitating feeling of loneliness. It sounds daunting.

                  Take great care.


  35. Vicki says:

    … “human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It’s how we get our satisfaction. If we can’t connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find — the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about ‘addiction’ altogether, and instead call it ‘bonding.’ A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn’t bond as fully with anything else.

    So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection. ”

    • Larry says:

      So in the absence of sufficient human connection, I am addicted to work and to this blog. I knew that. It makes sense. I know I need more human connection. That’s the hard part, because in striving for it, I run up against why I gave up in the first place on hoping to get it.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Vicki: Way too complicated. I read some of the article. It’s simpler that that. We only get addicted to “PAIN” killers. It’s pain that we’ll do ANYTHING to get away from. Yes Vicki, lack of connection, especially in early childhood, is painful, BUT keep it to the ‘direct’ cause.

      Tom: I feel your conclusions to your observation was flawed; either that or you have a different definition of what constitutes “neurosis”. You were not in these animals heads. Janov defined it very, very simply

      Geeze: we love to make things complicated.


      • David says:

        Oh, I took to it be saying just that, that we attach to the pain reliever, whatever it is, the chem narcotics being one. I had a friend who, between bouts of sobriety, used multiple substances but only alcohol would totally impair his functioning, and he used less of that in terms of daily quantity. Stoned on other drugs he worked, maintained personal and social contacts. “Why,” intrigued me.

    • sylvia says:

      Thanks for article, Vicki. It is always encouraging to read about a better take about people’s pain. Looks like a good start against just putting people in jail for their habits.
      I agree with you Tom, that animals can be neurotic. I have a cat that shows her affection by biting. Never had that in any other pet. Maybe it’s because when at 5 weeks her mother and littermates were killed by the neighborhood big dog, and she cried for days hungry, before being rescued.

      • David says:

        That seems remarkably common with cats. Lots of theories as to why. Not likely we’ll ever know.

      • Vicki says:

        I agree, Sylvia. In PT, we often think of the lack of connection, disconnection, and inability to bond because we didn’t have those bonds in our families, as they didn’t care how we felt, and were disconnected from themselves and their own pain. But it’s good to see that concept and language in an article specifically about addiction.
        And that cause sounds likely for your poor cat, as likely the worst experience she knows.

        • David says:

          Just received this from my health mentor Dr. Peter D’Adamo, Connecticut Naturopathic Physician and Scientist. It is composed by Martha, his wife. Her mother, Mary was Russian born.

          (Have to find a way to make this about me…. after my wonderful grandfather died, with the inexperience of an 8 year old, I set out to find his replacements, assuming all old people were kind. Being old, they all kept dying on me… david)

          Mothering May 9, 2015 Healing, Inspirational, Martha D’Adamo0 Comments

          The act of mothering is defined as to “bring up (a child) with care and affection; look after kindly and protectively, sometimes excessively so; to take care of, nurse, protect, tend, raise; to give birth to.

          We’ve all come into this world through a mother, that woman we used as a portal for physical life. Some relationships with our mothers are deeply nurturing, close, kindly, and provide the emotional nourishment that allows us to grow into fully formed adults. Other relationships with mother aren’t so fortunate. Where the mother lacked an emotional connection, the child starved emotionally, unable to form that deep connection that allowed for emotional maturity, the ability to love and be loved, to deeply care for self.

          Mothers come in many different shapes and sizes, and sometimes they come to us not through birth but through life circumstance, and those who “mother us,” raise us up, and nurture us may be older or younger than us and they may be women or men…or animals. The act of nurturing is not limited to one who brings us into the world, although having that essential first relationship in tact is wonderful. Yet it doesn’t guarantee that we will be emotionally balanced, loved throughout our lives or even happy.

          I am very grateful for the mother who brought me into the world. She had strength of character, courage, strength, almost super-human powers at times, and vulnerability. Her given name was Mary, which has numerous meanings, two of which are “my beloved,” and “rebelliousness.” My mother wanted to be a rebel, but had the constraints of seven children, maintaining a household, limited resources, and the emotional inheritance she shared with women of her generation, which was that she had a particular place in society. Near the time of her death, she talked about this, about how she wished for more for herself, yet how thrilled she was that her daughters had the opportunities to accomplish that which she could not.

          She also mused on how the tables had turned; once she had cared for us, and now we cared for her as she struggled with the aftermath of a stroke, with I might add, a great sense of dignity and her wicked Irish humor, which sustained her and all of us throughout her life and through her death. She loved that my two daughters, Claudia and Emily, would “nurse” her – bring her tea, read her poems, knit and crochet for her when she couldn’t move her hands, perform for her. It was lovely to witness, and it reinforced in me that mother is not just a noun or a name to call someone; it is a verb—for the act of caring, tending and nurturing another.

          I have been so fortunate to have been mothered by many and to have mothered many, most particularly my daughters, who actually taught me how to be a mother, and they continue to do so every day.

          I honor Mary, my sisters and sisters-in-law, mothers-in-law, my dear friend, Regina, my daughters, my husband, Peter (yes, men can mother! And some of them do it very well.) My puppiesJ and all of those throughout my life who gave me the opportunity to love and be loved, to nurture, and to grow.

          Happy Mother’s Day

        • thomas verzar says:

          Hi Vicki
          I thought it was a great article. Incredible where you dig them out of.
          As you know, my primary gripe about my life is that I didn’t get bonded to my mum, and possibly even to my dad. I often thought it was/is remarkable that I didn’t end up on drugs, or commit suicide. The loneliness that I endured as an immigrant teenager both in Europe and then Australia, was excruciating. I never realised till lately, that “perhaps” it may have originated much earlier. My mum was 18 when she had me. She fell pregnant soon after the war, when she was only 17. And then moved to Romania with my dad, thereby not having the supoport of her mum.
          I agree with the content of the article. If you are not connected or bonded to people around you, you are doomed to be in PAIN.
          See you soon.

      • David says:

        When my friend’s kids’ hamster died, their German Shepherd, who used to carry the little rodent all over the neighborhood, in her mouth, laid by his cage and mourned for about a week. My male 5 year old Valley bull dog mothered 3 abandoned kittens, including letting them dry nurse on him. He had been badly physically abused before I adopted him; rescued from a stoning by a group of Reform Baptist church goers one Sunday, having been abandoned by a military family posted out, he was eating compost. Obviously they feel; understand human language and human intentions towards them.So they,too, can be injured. Not born neurotic.
        When I began with horses, I learned it was smart to make friends with them; and that the really intelligent ones demanded being consulted not ordered about like idiots. Cats also demand that. A friend, who is a Reiki Master, tells me cats will not allow themselves to be touched by people who they sense want to overpower their free will. She says she trusted me because her cats and her Rottweilers accepted me, exposed their bellies to me, soliciting touch. If I could speak canine and feline I’d try to find out what’s really going on. Of course they might lie…. heh

        • jackwaddington says:

          David: Of course, they couldn’t lie … feeling-full creature have no need to. Only neurotics find reasons to lie … in order that …….


          • David says:

            My shallow foray into humor,again Jack “… they might lie.”. Exactly, they are as they are. I watched a big old momma cow last Spring urge a baby goat all the way across the pasture to his wailing momma. He moved grudgingly. She gently nudged him along with her huge horns, and with her nose pushed him under the fence back into the goat paddock to his mother. She uttered one MOO before returning to her herd. From age 11 – 17 we lived in the bush, April to end November. The wild beings there provided an amazing education. A few orphans, small and big animals, lived with us in our cabin until ready to go on their own.

            • jackwaddington says:

              David: It’s all a matter of what we consider a “lie” to be. This, for me, is the inevitable ambiguity of words. Animals as I sense it, don’t have words; just feelings that they express … appropriately … UNLESS there is some intervention on the part of us neurotic (unfeeling-full) humans.


              • David says:

                I wish I could learn their languages as well as they do English. My eavesdropping Valley Bull dog has done things like go fetch a book I mentioned in conversation with another human. Mind you he didn’t go to the bookshelf and choose it by title, rather by me saying I left it on my night stand. So he heard ,”my book,” and ,” nightstand,” but had to deduce it was in our bedroom and that I wanted it. I volunteer on an Organic/ Byodynamic Farm. An intact 5 year old bull who was a buddy gored the thumb web on my left hand. I swear he showed sorrow when I showed him the bloody wound after I stopped cursing at him. Most would say I was a fool being in a pen with an intact adult bull. I was repairing his head lock, he stuck his head in and tried to look up to see what I was doing and to lick my salty sweaty arm.

      • Margaret says:

        > Sylvia,
        > that poor cat!
        > good she had you to understand her and see it the right way.
        > maybe feeeling safe some of her true pain was allowed to come out.
        > so good to imagine she did not get hit or something for showing her affection in her own way..
        > my cat used to show hers in her funny own particular way, by running up to me specially after having enjoyed her meal, to sharpen her claws in my sneakers, while I was wearing them..
        > it was clearly gratitude and affection, she sometimes did it completely out of the blue, without food, just in a spur of the moment impulse to show her warm feelings and appreciation to me..
        > still miss her a lot..
        > M

    • Leslie says:

      Thanks for posting this article Vicki. I like and agree with the message. I know I was desperate for connection all along – just used food as an accessible refuge for many years – as the emptiness was too much.

  36. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Larry and Jack
    Growing up, I always had a dog. When I got a bit older, I had pigeons.
    Having observed those animals and pigeons through a number of generations, my take is that ” neurosis” as you guys put it, is inherent in every species, be it human, dogs, pigeons or fish.
    As all species change over time for all sorts of reasons, part of a survival mechanism is in fact “neurosis”. if we were not able to become Neurotic, we would’ve died out long ago. And so would’ve dogs, pigeons, fish etc.
    So, in my opinion, neurosis is good.

    • David says:

      How did your furry and feathery friends exhibit their neuroses ?? What caused them ?? You were their caretaker ??

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: You sound just like my mother. She would just blurt out my name … all I was left with was:- is she about to tell me something?????????? OR …. is something I wrote causing an eruption within you???????????????????????????????????? :O .


        • David says:

          Through my Naturopathic Association I received an invite to participate in a 7 Day seminar on, “Anxiety, Causes and Cures.” It finished yesterday and I looked in on the synopsis today. Except for the recommendation that patients be advised to find a nourishing diet and take regular, the remainder was either amusing or infuriating.

  37. David says:

    I read Tom’s comment and I was inviting your esteemed response, as in, ” I wanna hear how Jack responds to this bit of illuminative edification.” I had a huge grin on my face, and my gut is sore from laughing answering you now. david

  38. jackwaddington says:

    Quote from “The Primal Scream” Chapter “The Problem” Page 20

    “Genius that he was, Freud bequeathed us two most unfortunate notions which we have taken as gospel truth. One is that there is no beginnings to neurosis–that in other words, to be born a member of the human race is to be born neurotic. The other is that the person with the strongest defense system is necessarily the one who can best function in society”.

    My dictionary gives the definition of neurosis as:- “a nervous disorder” If we wish argue the meaning of the word … that’s anogther matter. I take it from reading Larry’s comment that he does not consider it a ‘dis-order’. From Tom’s comment that “neurosis” is just some transient re-action. From David that he gets a great laugh from it all.

    Mine, for what it is worth, is that neurosis is:- “The pathology of feelings” In other words that the EXPRESSION of feelings are dead. The feeling sensations keeps reverberating around in our bodies … causing any number of UN-NATURAL behaviors and/or ingestions that are detrimental to ones health.

    Of course, I didn’t invent this all on my own … It’s how I read Arthur Janov. Who knows???? Maybe my reading is way off.


    • Larry says:

      In your quote from the Primal Scream there is nothing contrary to what I’ve been saying. How you get the notion that I don’t consider neurosis a disorder? Your idea that “Somewhere along our human evolution, we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’.” is your invention. What the quote you presented from the Primal Scream says to me is that we aren’t born neurotic, which I and probably everyone on this blog agrees completely with.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Larry: Instead of asking me the question “How you get the notion that I don’t consider neurosis a disorder” clarify for me when, how, where or why we became neurotic, Then I would see what it is that you consider is “The Problem” that Janov was writing about.

        Should you just prefer me to answer your question then I extrapolated (maybe wrongly) from you writing:- “It makes more sense that we’ve been neurotic all along, that when we became the human species, we at the same time became a neurotic species.” It was further seen by me that you were inferring when you wrote “What the quote you presented from the Primal Scream says to me is that we ‘AREN’T BORN NEUROTIC’, which I and probably everyone on this blog agrees ” Emphases mine.

        As I read Arthur Janov (again maybe wrongly) he is stating that somewhere in our evolution WE BECAME NEUROTIC. It is my contention, purely mine, that that occurred some time between 20,000 to 30,000 year ago … assuming that we humans have been in our present biologic form for roughly 100,000 years.

        So yes I do see a contradiction from your earlier comment to what I am now reading in THIS comment. Granted, I used the phrase “abandoned our nature”.

        If indeed you do see it as a disorder, AND you also see that we became neurotic at the onset of becoming human. I can only assume that you see the human race as defective from the onset. Maybe your studies in biology corroborate that notion. As I stated, it would be clearer to me if you were to state what being human means relative to neurosis.


    • David says:

      Jack I was not laughing at neurosis, or the concept of neurosis; I realize we do not know each other so I should not be so presumptive to think another should know my character including my sense of humor. I was anticipating how you might respond to Tom’s take on neurosis. I attributed to you an, ” Oh my dog, what next,” expletive. And that tickled my sense of humor, and that led to my, ” Jack???” as in go get him Jack. I believe you were the best to respond to Tom. All thought and said with respect for you and the, emotional self. I don’t use sarcasm. Old age has made me rather witty though. I don’t worry much any more about acting silly.

      After reading the messages you write to folks on the blog I conclude that I like who you are, strong in what you believe, up front, and non vindictive.

      I believe at union of sperm and egg we are destined to arrive in this reality untarnished perfection. I believe that injury can happen prior to birth. I believe that we all have a right to love, care, and respect just by getting born. When that is not forthcoming I believe the resulting assaults means our reality has to become altered to survive; to the rescue, our childhood savior, repression; and, the result, neurosis.. If that band aid is not sufficient to salve the pain, psychosis.

      I ‘m 69 years old. I survived dire poverty, physical, verbal, and sexual abuse; and several attempts by my mother to kill me. She complicated that by telling me her horror stories of abuse, further cutting me off from feelings. My father was a brilliant, gifted, mega talented man who could not remember we needed wood for heat, and food in the pantry. I had a wonderful but very elderly live in grandfather. He died when I was 8. There was no positive social set to offset the shit. I aced music festivals and oratory competitions. That just got the shit kicked out of me by age mates. I started a rock band, but knew I was no good at it regardless of what was said.

      Perhaps out of my own need, During my Social Work practice I didn’t know how to help everyone referred to me but I could at least love and unconditionally accept them, per their birthright. Living and working in a small rural area you better not be a phony.

      I have received cards and letters from children, youth, and old geezers like us saying that was how I made them feel. One girl wrote that I was like a mother duck, taught her to swim and kept watch while she achieved independence. A once enormously suicidal person wrote that she was stunned when I offered to sit with her so she didn’t have to die alone if she really believed she needed to die. Also that I was the only male,” helper person that didn’t screw, ” her.

      I received a fair bit of criticism from some colleagues who thought I used people with the, ” respect gig, ” because I was needy. I never needed however to move in their ranks. I only once ever answered that slander. I said, and I still believe it true, I didn’t need to believe that I was all that; didn’t solicit or feel gratified by all of the adoration, but the youth I worked with did. It made them feel worthwhile that someone they construed as being all that always had time for them and kept their best interests front and center. Sometimes the best I ever did was to provoke a kid by caring to tell me off so they could experience standing up for themselves; and learn that you can’t lose a friend by doing that.

      And I always taught them to master chop sticks. I’m proud of that sneaky bit.

      My self image, I’m the ugly faced, fat, liar, stupid, kid that nobody wants as a friend or to dance with, just as my mother said. And when I believe that someone is going to see that, I get fucking terrified.
      As I was writing this the boyhood friend I have for 59 years mourned since age 10 when he moved away, came to visit, unannounced. I hadn’t seen him for 34 years, June 27, 1981; the day my 4 year old daughter died. His 3 year old son was also in hospital.
      He was telling his wife about what a brilliant talented kid I’d been. I wanted him to shut up because it was a lie and him lying meant he was never my friend. Phony. His mom was an English war bride; very erudite. Briefly, I once heard him during a play visit, in a conversation with her, he was crying, saying, ” David’s my best friend.” She answered, ” You’re not friends with him, we just feel sorry for those kind of people.”
      hurts like hell, david

      Chapter 154 , Page 503……

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: Wow … I liked your comment, and particularly what you wrote about me. That made me feel real good.

        As for your humor, I needed to read your comment twice before I got into the gist of it. My kind of humor is somewhat more primative. Eg. “Oh! my god, what the fuck next”, but then I came from that hell hole in the dreary industrial north of England, where poverty was the norm, and primative humor is the only way out. I actually didn’t think you were laughing at me, but it wouldn’t have mattered even if you were.

        You said a great deal in this comment about yourself and your child-hood. I found it very interesting.

        I don’t know you either David, but to tell you a little about myself I am an 82 going on 83 year old old gay man … more arragant and conceited than most, who loves blogging and saying his/my ‘party piece’. I love people (though few love me … not surprisingly). I love animals, but I am utterly stupid when it comes to plants and languages, and that incluides my own … English.

        There’s more of the ugly about me and quite a bit of the bad about me, but for the life of me I can’t remember the good cos, the short term memory is on the blink. Ah well!!!


        • David says:

          Here’s one for the books Jack, the Primal Books that is, ha!! I had not looked at your blog photo with my glasses on until yesterday. If that is you at 82-83, holy shit, you’ve preserved incredibly well. Anyhow, without glasses you looked like my male nemesis prototype, slim faced handsome, cocky, jocular grin, the face of that popular, athletic, snotty guy(s) that shit all over me and got the girl. And so that old demon on my shoulder condemned you. Man how that shit fucks up our lives and narrows the field of meeting interesting people. Or as my past wife choices show also allowed me to naively let some unsavory people fly under my spidey sense and into my intimate space.
          I sometimes wish I had a nasty bone i my body but I don’t; at times my worst fault. I’m sure I can come off as arrogant/opinionated. If that means sticking to my values and facts I accept, I guess I am. david

          • jackwaddington says:

            David: I have to admit that, that picture was taken some 5 years ago. But in all conceit I do feel I look good for my age. It’s my mouth and my writing that put most people off … and oh! … the farts.


            • David says:

              I began coloring my hair when it went white. I stopped last fall when my stylist said how much she liked white hair; and now even the 50 somethings treat me like I’m irrelevant old guy, call me dear and hon in stores, and not with studly intent…My neighbor offered to carry my garbage today. I may go back to being dark blonde again…

  39. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Jack, Larry and the new kid on the block, David.
    I disagree with all of you.
    And the reason is that you all assume/presume that our beginning was a blessed one, that we started off somehow in a state of bliss.
    Far be it from the truth, Look at people with all sorts of genetic disabilities. Look at people with mental disabilities. Cerebral palsy, autism etc, etc, the list is endless.
    Look at a baby born right now in Nepal. Or a baby born in Nigeria, or North Korea, where babies/toddlers die of starvation.
    Where was their blissful beginning? Did they all have terrible parents? Un-feeling mothers and dads? I don’t think so.
    I think that besides the “nurture and or nature” discussion, ( which we are not having here, at the moment) there is the ” circumstance” to your beginning.
    Were you born in Africa a couple of hundred years ago, when your tribal leader sold you off into slavery? Did mummy and daddy not love you then?
    Or were you kidnapped by people for various nefarious reasons?
    I think, that you need to put that into the equation, besides how was your beginning and birth. You could’ve the best mum who did everything right during your gestation, and who went on to give you the best birth on this planet. But if all other things/circumstances don’t come your way, you are there to face a life of PAIN.
    By my discourse here, I am not marginalising Primal Theory nor Therapy. It’s the best. It resonated with me, as it did with most of you. That’s why I upped and went to LA, 7500 miles from Sydney, taking my family with me, uprooting all of us.
    On a more personal note, Jack, you are unique. In my mind, you are a true Primal Warrior. Keep it up. I like that you don’t take anything lying down.
    You Larry, when you write, as I said many times before, you take me to an other place. I can always feel you when you write.
    And last, but not least, the new kid on the blog, DAVID. Remarkable. Coming out from your corner and barring yourself in front of all these peons. Congratulations. Neither you dad nor your mum have any idea what they missed out on. All the people that you touched through your work, were very lucky. You were indeed a blessing to them.
    Now that I got this off my chest, I have to address my demons and write to you about them.
    Sleep well, all of you.

    • Larry says:

      I agree with what you are saying, Tom. It is a mystery to me what I said that you disagree with. I suspect I’m being misread.

      • Larry says:

        I look forward to hearing from you. Glad you’re still there.

        • David says:

          Not just to add another oar in the water, Larry; but regardless what you meant to say I interpreted it as you saying you believed we are born neurotic; I read Tom as saying the same about non human animals. There’s some education involved there on brain structure that informs the lack of validity of that assertion.
          I know because of my conversational writing style I am not easy to correctly read at times, too; but somehow, maybe just the way you write, it reads as if you flip flop several times on the same topic., from reply to reply. Probably just me.

          • Larry says:

            That is interesting David. Actually I also perceive you to flip flop.

            I guess it irks me if I feel words and ideas are attributed to me that aren’t mine. I guess it makes me feel misunderstood. I grew up misunderstood, so it bothers me when people misinterpret who I am and portray me as someone who I’m not. When it happens in the present I try to let it go, except for people who are close to me. My interaction with Jack yesterday didn’t get anywhere except to fill my loneliness, The interaction with him was pretty much the only significant interaction I had all day.

            On the neurosis discussion, I assumed that the meaning of what I was writing was obvious and I didn’t go into detail, but looking back I can see where some of my words could be taken in different ways. So even though it feels like a lot of work to try to clear up a misunderstanding of me, I’ll try again just because I don’t like being misunderstood,

            Like others have said here, I feel we aren’t the only species who exhibits neurotic symptoms. I see that all of us, humans and other species, aren’t born automatically neurotic as if by design. We are designed to survive, and to survive optimally we are designed with potential to be healthy. Whatever species we are, I see that If we got all the love, caring and nourishment that we needed, there would be no neurosis, and vice-versa, neurosis sets in if and when our reality of not getting what we need becomes too painful.

            I believe that the more behaviourally and socially complex the animal species is especially in the upbringing and care of the offspring, the more the possibility for something to go wrong and for deprivation and neurosis to set in. I believe there were neurotic individuals in our non-human ancestors and in our human ancestors, because I don’t believe they all had perfect childhoods where all their needs were met. Deprivation could even begin in the womb, for instance if the mother is undernourished. I feel certain that at least some of our early ancestors were deprived of at least some of their needs and grew up neurotic because of it.

            Human childhood, a time of exploration, learning and development is exceptionally long. There is lots of time for something to go wrong, for deprivation to happen before the person becomes a fully formed adult able to take care of themself. The human being, and especially the human brain, is incredibly complex. The more complex something is, the more opportunity there is for something to go wrong. I don’t see how our ancestors brains and their childhood development would be more robust than ours. I don’t see how our early ancestors all lived in perfect conditions that gave all of them perfect childhoods where they got all that they needed. I believe there was sometimes deprivation in the time of our early human ancestors just as there is in our time. Some mothers are better at mothering and others are bad at it no matter what time you live in.

            I see that we are a species capable of deep empathy toward one another. We had to develop that sensitivity toward one another to get along and co-operate together in groups. If we hadn’t, we wouldn’t be here. We are especially vulnerable without each other. We are especially vulnerable to deprivation. I see that neurosis has always been our curse when our needs haven’t been met, since the beginning of human beings and even before. I guess that is my sticking point with Jack. He feels that neurosis set in 20 – 30 millennia ago. I’m not saying his is wrong. I’m presenting a different view, that we’ve always been susceptible to neurosis, just like we’ve always been susceptible to infection and disease. I’m not saying that we are automatically born neurotic, but that we have always been susceptible to becoming neurotic if our needs aren’t met.

            I suspect that probably when we became large in number, when there were too many to feed by hunting and foraging and we leaned toward domesticating plants and animals to feed ourselves, at time when studies reveal we were undernourished, when we formed large permanent settlements and rigid social hierarchies and a less-well-off underclass of oppressed people doing laborious, tedious, repetitive agricultural work, might have been a time that gave rise to a culture and conditions that fostered neurosis and increased frequency of neurotic individuals in human populations.

            • jackwaddington says:

              Just by way of a change of subject, I feel is perhaps very relavant … especially in view of Larry’s comment (May 10 @ 11:16 am).

              He commented, and I quote:- “I guess it irks me if I feel words and ideas are attributed to me that aren’t mine. I guess it makes me feel misunderstood. I grew up misunderstood, so it bothers me when people misinterpret …….”. I too as a child felt very misunderstood especially by my ‘daddy’. However. I did get what I felt was understanding from ‘my Granny’, and to some lesser extent by my mother. I spite of that, I still had this urge to be understood by my ‘daddy’ and struggled for it. It did seem to me that my bother (the one that has just died) got all my father’s attention; mainly because he was into my father’s sport (Rugby League). I hated it and saw little point of all those grown men running around in short pants trying to get a mis-shaped ball into the opposing team’s goal area. For all my struggles it did not occur to me then, to become a ‘Ruby fan’.

              In my 30 some years of my therapy I have felt and cried a great deal about wanting ‘daddy’s love and understanding. Such that now I care little if I am misunderstood … with the exception of those I feel real close to. my Jimbo, my nephews, some nieces and my remaining sisters. There is no-one posting on this blog I feel that close to; so! in that sense, I no longer desire that I am understood. Craving for it, for me, is to contiue with that old struggle. I am delighted that I have reached this stage in my therapy.

              So why am I posting this comment. For the most part, I wish to show that it is possible to trancend being misunderstood. However for those that never got any understanding; perhaps even from friends … it must be incredibly hard to go through all that. I was lucky … BUT I do feel it is doable/feelable.


            • David says:

              Any species can be injured emotionally. But if we accept the premise that neurosis involves painful memories in our subconscious where the worst are fortified against conscious recall by the process of repression, from where they direct our behavior then the brain involved must have evolved to the point it has conscious and unconscious/subconscious, ” compartments.” I have lived with wild and domestic animals, companion and farm. Ritualistically abused I have seen fearful beings, some who cower, some who lash out. I have not seen planned revenge or manipulation.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Tom: It’s fine by me that you disagree with me, but when you wrote “you all assume/presume that our beginning was a blessed one, that we started off somehow in a state of bliss.”, I cannot speak for the others, but for me I do NOT feel that our human beginnings were a state of “bliss”.

      My assumption is that it was a state of ‘feeling-full-ness’. A state of bliss is something, I feel, can only be transient. For me, that state happens when I fall in love, when I have a very exciting experience, go to a very, very beautiful location, and sometimes in the presence of an adorable child or animal. There maybe others, but off hand I can’t think of them.

      Just to elaborate on how I assume our beginnings occurred:- I feel that it took quite some millennium to transition from the monkey (or whatever we were) to our present biological state. Even though since then, there may have been some minor biological changes.

      However I do also feel very strongly that some 20 to 30 millennium ago there was an ‘relatively’ abrupt change that took place, due perhaps to us leaving the then current environment (my feeling the tropics), and venturing into colder ones. That necessitated an adaptation to this new location and it is there that I feel (solely my feeling) it precipitated the advent of neurosis in that there was some neglect to the NEEDS of our young.

      From there-on-in a chain reaction was set in whereby we now became viciously territorial and persisted in anger to the point of violence, and that state of being has remained ever since.

      Since neurosis (as I see it) became the ‘modus operandi’ by those humans in the colder environments they inflicted it upon all other humans they came in contact with and that included those that stayed in their/our tropical regions.

      Of course, all this is MY reasoning’s, opinions, ideas or whatever. I have no proof, nor do I feel it will ever be provable. It will forever remain speculative at best.

      On reflection; on making this comment … who am I trying to convince? Maybe daddy OR, could be myself. Just another crazy aspect of me.


    • David says:

      The,” Primal,” beginning was still absolute perfect potential. Injury can occur in utero; and many brain injuries occur just prior to or during birth. We can certainly emerge from the vaginal canal injured, emotionally, mentally, developmentally and physically. Very briefly, the method used by the Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential to allow brain injury to heal, one I must add I have personal professional experience with, is based on beginning at the developmental point that the injured child’s brain passes all competency tests. Ie: it is fruitless to reteach a 10 year old to read if he is left spastic by the brain injury. Only because I do not know who knows what about competency development; there is a term , encephalocaudal sequencing of development, defined, everything starts in the brain, crawling, rolling, talking and moreover one skill is built on the other. So they challenge the brain by mimicking every thing the child went through to having arrived at becoming the healthy normally functioning 10 year old he was before the injury. Not unlike Primal Theory and the systematic resolution of pain , as I understand it, in order to achieve sustained change. I recall some of the times I got all thrilled ,hyped up, by feeling something out of sequence only to crash into feelings of further proof of me being a failure when change didn’t hold beyond a few weeks.

      I have watched the Institutes method reinstate all of the skills, a healthy brain, as existed before the brain injury, whether sustained in utero, during delivery, or after birth, nerve blindness, deafness, muteness, intellectual handicap, cerebral palsied, ADDHD, Autism, one a veritable vegetable neurologically, following a drowning.

      However I have never seen that brilliant method change hair color, make straight hair curly, an Aussie child emerge a Russian speaker, a Greek child become genetically Japanese.
      So I gather that only injuries can be reversed. Injuries are something that happen to us not part of our innate structure.

  40. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Margaret
    Haven’t seen you on the blog lately. Are you OK?

    • Margaret says:

      > dear Tom,
      > thank you for caring enough to ask, that really means much to me and actually triggered me.
      > I have had a very hard time.
      > specially the first two weeks after losing my cat were so painful.
      > the feelings that came up were so much worse than anything I felt before, this was the first time it felt like pure and agonizing pain. before old feelings always had a taste of relief to them, of finally things falling into place, which kind of overruled the old grief, turning it into healing.
      > the feelings triggered by having to let go my dear cat, were nothing but pain.
      > am crying while writing this.
      > they are in the present, and they are dealing with the horrible finality of death, of losing something so very precious, the unique presence of one particular fellow and very dear companion I shared my life with for the last ten years.
      > I have always felt so very protective about her, which of course made it all the more painful to work through the trauma of the whole episod of having to agree with the decision and trying to make the goodbye ok.
      > so much sadness.
      > at the same time I had to deal with feeling let down and hurt by someone I expected more support of, , and had to try and deal with tose feelings and that situation as well as I could..
      > tried to avoid a struggle that might cause me more hurt, and managed to reach out to someone else.
      > I am still working my way through this, got good help from Gretchen and Barry , .
      > , but don’t want to go into this here.
      > I know I have not been hurt intentionally, but I feel definitely hurt, as also after reaching out while already feeling very bad, I felt more hurt by the response, so my only healthy reaction seeemed to get out of the situation as much as possible.
      > all the pain is slowly getting less intense though there is still a lot of it right under the surface, which can be easily triggered again, by for example just talking about my cat and mentioning one of her endearing and sometimes very funny behaviors..
      > slowly I am picking up my life again, am in touch with a lady with two cats with kittens, will visit them soon, and gradually work again on prparing my statistics exam next month..
      > so well, under the
      > the circumstances I feel I am making the best of things, but still carry a lot of sadness around for the moment.
      > won’t be at the retreat, but still feel very connnected with a number of members from the primal community.
      > M

      • Larry says:

        Glad to hear you Margaret. I feel your description of the agonizing pain of loss. The finality is so hard to accept. It’s so huge. If it’s any help though, I find that a little at a time it can be let in.

      • Leslie says:

        10 years with Molimet – that is amazing Margaret. She would have loved every minute too.
        Must be so hard to say good-bye…
        ox L.

  41. Otto Codingian says:

    hurtin’, buddy. nothing new. fuck mother’s day.

  42. Otto Codingian says:

    not just because my bitch mother died just a tiny bit early in my life, but because the minute i start listening to music and give myself just the tiniest of tears and/or pleasure, maybe i can make it through the next week, or even the day. The minute i start, z says we going out to eat for mothers day, even though the kid took her yesterday and did that, even though the old dog’s pain has taken a new turn, and he cant be left alone at all, so lets find an outside cafe on mothers day so i can bring the dog and then drive down to long beach to z’s mother’s cemetary, hours and hours in the car with the stupid fucking dog, and now i cant get overtime and now the fucking secret society masons at work have bent me over backwards and shot it up my butthole, which may be fine for the gay community, but it reminds me too much of an early assault, and chest pains coming all the time now, fuck this shit baby. goodness gracious.

  43. Margaret says:

    > well, animals do sometimes ‘lie’ and have their own kinds of ‘vocabulary’.
    > crows so far are known to have at least 50 different sounds, which clearly stand for different things.
    > and occasionally one ‘smart’ for
    > row intentionally uses the sound for ‘alarm’ to make the other crows fly away, when he spots a ymiie piece of food. by making g
    > the alarm sound he can safely eat it all by himself, or herself..
    > those kinds of behaviour are also spotted in other species.
    > some behaviours are part of the genetic imprint, like birds pretending to have a broken wing to make predators follow them instead of finding the nest with the young.
    > one of my former cats used to put up a big show when laying on the table, ‘accidentally’ near the part of the b
    > table set up for breakfast, with a nice slice of ham or cheese.
    > she would start yawning theatrically and then start stretching ‘casually’ to then gagain ‘accidentally’ stretch one of her paws right up to the yummie piece of food, and then fast as lightning claw it away from the tray and run off with it..
    > it was very funny to watch, and he knew very well he was supposed to stay off that part of the table, haha, but his show was good enough to let him get away with it a few times!
    > M

    • David says:

      During a trip into the bush, we, our bunch, heard animal noises and upon investigating we watched a group of crows holding ceremony for a dead crow. They walked around the body making sounds we hadn’t heard from crows. When they finished they left.

  44. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > the few occasions I (almost) stepped on my cat’s tail, or toes, always lifting my foot in time warned by her loud scream of alarm, the cat always noticed I felt very distressed about it, and ran up to me while I was saying sorry to her, to reassure me by rubbing against my legs, clearly to let me know she knew it was just an acccident and no need to feel bad about it!
    > there are so many many ways all animals communicate, with each other, their own specie
    > es, but also with other species including us humans, which I think they often consider a bit thick or dumb..

    • David says:

      I believe that completely. My now ex wife mocked me for apologizing to the cats and dogs if I accidentally stepped on a tail or bumped into them.

  45. Phil says:

    Wow, the blog has been so active I can hardly keep up. I think the origin of neurosis for us as a
    species will remain speculation. I’m sure that wild animals can become neurotic but I would think that would have to effect their ability to survive and reproduce, and so they probably wouldn’t be around.
    Maybe in past centuries some of us wouldn’t have survived due to our neuroses. We would have
    maybe died during birth along with our mothers, or have been more susceptible to childhood illnesses etc.
    Being neurotic doesn’t seem to have effected
    our “success” as a species. Success meaning we reproduce and pass our genes on to the
    next generation. Evolution works at the population level and doesn’t have much to do with
    the “quality” of anyone’s life. We compete well with other species, too well.
    Modern civilization has maybe changed the equation as medicine can keep us alive even being
    neurotic. Maybe someday primal therapy and theory can be embraced to improve more people’s lives and reduce the craziness in the world.

  46. David says:

    Is there evidence that other species have the brain structure necessary to permit neurosis,; ie: a subconscious, Phil ?

    • Phil says:

      David, Other species can exhibit deviated behaviors which, to me, indicates neurosis. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 06:20:00 +0000 To:

      • David says:

        ,” deviated behaviors, ” what examples come to mind, Phil?

        • Phil says:

          David, I think this is easily seen with some of our pets which have been abused, although I think domesticated animals might already be somewhat neurotic in that they have lost their ability to live in the wild. But dogs, on the other hand, seem to have evolved to live with us. I think abnormal dog behavior can be observed. For neurotic dogs I’m thinking of ones which are very skittish and leery of contact, due to having been beaten by their owners. I assume that wild animals which lose their mothers will be neurotic. Experiments done with rats taken from the mothers shows them to be different (neurotic) because they weren’t licked etc. by the mothers. These are rats in cages and maybe not in a good environment but I think it does show something. Animal neurosis doesn’t have to exactly correspond to human neurosis. Higher mammals all have similar brains to us, although lacking expanded areas where higher thinking takes place. Neurotic animals behave differently than non-neurotic ones is what I suppose. They don’t relate to others of their species as they should. Can’t do much about it I think. We have enough to worry about with our own traumas. If the human population could heal I think that would go a long way in helping both our domesticated animals and wild ones which share the world with us. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:07:28 +0000 To:

          • David says:

            Barbarous maternal deprivation experiments with Chimps clearly showed they developed Failure to Thrive Syndrome symptoms, pining, depression; began relating to inanimate objects, strangers, but not their mothers when reunited. It’s believed that proximity releases the pain of the original separation.

            • Phil says:

              David, It sounds like those chimps in the experiments you mention had good mothers and when reunited with them after the traumas inflicted were able to “primal” it. That’s my interpretation. There was no need to organize a chimp retreat. What do you think? Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:58:12 +0000 To:

              • David says:

                No, Phil, like human babies so deprived that they develop Failure to Thrive Syndrome to survive the pain of emotional needs not being met, the damage was permanent. The conventional treatment is to find alternate caretakers for those children. Placing them back with birth parents after their health and development normalized resulted in , ” failure,” resuming.

                Art wrote about, ” primaling, ” Rick , once, when he was a toddler.

                I could walk onto a pediatric ward and go to the Failure to Thrive child without being introduced.. The injury was written on their faces.

        • Phil says:

          I wonder among animals if their are examples of fathers having a role in the rearing of the young. It seems to me we really need both parents, and having a village helps too. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:07:28 +0000 To:

          • David says:

            My male Valley Bull raised orphaned kittens; washed them let them dry nurse him, gathered into himself to sleep.

            • Phil says:

              David. That’s interesting and unusual. Those were lucky kittens! So, you let your dog take responsibility there and didn’t chip in? Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:46:14 +0000 To:

              • David says:

                According to a recent APTN documentary it’s not so unusual. My Bull buddy, Max, was badly abused by stoning at the hands of a group on their way to church. He was brilliant intellectually, had an astounding receptive vocabulary,and was a kind pacifist to a fault. If his Shih tzu brother got hurt rough housing, Max would back off until high strung aggressive Jake calmed down and then very clearly apologized. His face showed concern. My first dog pal, Rex, a bull shepherd mix jumped into a fast moving current emptying into the Minas Basin to rescue an injured red fox. Once ashore the fox confronted Rex. Rex circled him, lunged, firmly grasped the fox’s tail and held his hind feet off of the ground until my father could secure the injured fox. No aggression. He kept vigil at the fox’s cage until his leg was healed and he was released. An orphaned fawn we raised 7 months and then placed on a sanctuary, traveled about 40 miles to come back home. One morning there he was curled up in the porch with Rex.

                Out of the spirit of being honest, Max would run to the door, and , ” Woof,” and when Jake went to investigate the cause for the ado, Max would run back and steal some of Jake’s food. And ,I once pretended to be hurt,on a bush walk to see how they might respond , and they didn’t give a shit… hah !

                Animals in the wild were video documented responding to the distress cries of cross species babies. Wolves are known to be incredibly developed in parenting.
                I recommend, ” Never Cry Wolf,” by Farley Mowat.. It made me weap, the , ” humanity,” of wolves.
                When we first began living in the bush my mother was afraid. My father said, ” The only animals to fear were the ones who walked on two legs and any others they domesticated.”

              • David says:

                Oh I was the guy who found them, Phil, brought them home and initially bedded them down on my bed with hot water bottle and a key wind clock to simulate a momma’s body warmth and heart beat. They had to be fed unpasteurized sheep’s milk with an eye dropper with a soft pipet. Old Max stood guard and when they went to the floor he took over the mothering. Well I did prepare the meals. I never felt comfortable letting Max use sharp knives and appliances. I know, I know, I’m a HELICOPTER PARENT, with a RESCUER OBSESSIVE NEUROSIS.. I detest stock phrases but, ” My Bad!!”

                During my rural social work career I probably rescued and adopted out well in excess of 100 dogs and cats, mostly abandoned by military families posted out at the end of the school years. Favorite drop off method, as diagnosed by my Vet friend, throwing out of or off of moving vehicles, depending on the size of the poor dears.

                I developed an even stronger assuredness for the validity of my practice of Homeopathy, treating their various injuries, scrapes, fear…. No placebo explanation, I reasoned, with babes and non humans

  47. Margaret says:

    > I would think animals that dream probably also have a subconscious.
    > in any case for all species most cognitive processes are mostly subconscious, only a tiny part of them is available to our conscious mind, and even less to our conscious control..
    > M

    • David says:

      Certainly for tasks it is accepted we do one thing at a time under conscious control.

    • sylvia says:

      Don’t know if this relates to the question about subconscious, but 2 of my adult dogs, one past and the present one exhibited the sucking reflex while asleep as if a puppy nursing. One part of brain was active without their being aware. I found it fascinating.

  48. Margaret says:

    > I think there is a whole range of different responses possible..
    > maybe those dreaming dogs suckling were processing some feelings, animals definitely also act them out occasionally, and sometimes they just express them loud and clear.
    > the last time I left my cat with my mom, a few years ago, for a couple of weeks, upon my return, she came up to me, and for a whole minute loooked up to me meowing in a whole range of different and very expressive ways. I could distinguish sounds that seemed to simply ask ‘why?,’, and ‘how could you?’ and very plaintive meows, also then some indignation, and on and on. this was the first time I had tried to let her come to me instead of immediately going to look for her.
    > that was because every year I left her at my mom during my trip to L>a., she seemed to get more pissed off on my return.
    > the first year she was simply very happy to see me again, ran up to me, jumped on the couch and put her nose against mine, and started to tell me a whole story, and enjoyed being cuddled right away.
    > the next year she was cross for a while, and every year it got worse, to the point she actually hissed and clawed at me for the first few hours. but it occurred to me that was because I went up to her while she was still hurt and angry, so that last time I allowed her to take her time and come to me.
    > so she did, after a little while, and expressed this whole range of feelings, and believe it or not, five minutes later she allowed me to caress her, with just afterwards when I tried to do so again, a halfhearted hiss as to say, mmmm, still a bit pissed off, but well…
    > so allowing her to express herself to me really made a huge difference to the years when she actually even scared me a bit with the amount of her anger and frustration.
    > all animals are different, but being really attentive reveals so many similarities we all share to some degree as well..
    > also with horses the interaction can be fascinating, respect and trust being key words, come to think of it, adding love and care, that goes for all of us doesn’t it?
    > Phil, I enjoyed reading the long comment you wrote.
    > I agree that if we’d all be more feeling the ways we treat our domesticated animals, and the wild ones, would change drastically.
    > can’t stand the way animals are raised and slaughtered on industrial levels, it is a disgrace to humankind.
    > M

  49. Margaret says:

    > is there a sudden silence on the blog for the last say 12 hours or is it the mails not being sent?
    > probably just all busy doing other things?
    > had such a fine phone session with Gretchen, all the pain about my cat and about feeling other kinds of hurt all poured out of me almost instantly.
    > it is so good to be able to let this happen and to get feedback that feels honest and reliable, thanks Gretch!
    > felt huge relief, but woke up again feeling down, but during the day again began feeling how a lot of pressure had dissipated and things had fallen into place.
    > there remains still a lot of sadness to go through, but the insecurities have been well addressed, and that is a huge burden off my chest.
    > and Phil, thanks to you as well for your support!
    > have ordered a spring cleanup service for my place, will let them do everything I cam possibly think of, including washing curtains and stuff like that, now is the time to do it, no feline around looking for open and normally forbidden doors inviting to explore the wide world behind it. a big fear otherwise, cat sneaking into stairway and so onto street or even in huge basement, brrrr…
    > also ordered a new tiny device that can do an enormous number of complicated and useful stuff, download all kinds of formats and turn them into speech, record classes or music or memo’s and download audio books or courses, and allow me to edit them in all kinds of ways.
    > of course a huge and complicated manual comes with it, I don’t particularly look forward to learning again a new set of instructions but hey, at some point I should start being glad to have it at hand..
    > used to work with a larger and much more simple device using Daisy formats on cd, but they are not made anymore, so am obliged to go with the digital latest versions… a pain at first, but step by step I should be able to work it out..
    > only starting it up takes already 35 pages of instructions..
    > Guru, where are you and how are you???
    > so well, just felt like chatting a bit I guess…
    > the kittens I am told are growing well, have to be patient!!
    > this weekend will meet a fellow student that will soon get her bachelor, will get togehter with her for the first time, and she has two cats, so hurray, will be able to have the pleasure of caressing their soft fur and play with them and hopefully make them purr and maybe sit on my lap for a while!!
    > hope the blog catches up again, M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, I’m glad to be able to help. I guess what happened here is the discussion about neurotic animals came to an end. Have you picked out the kitten or two that you want from the litter? Phil

  50. jackwaddington says:

    I decided NOT to respond to these question as to the possibilty animals having a subconscious or that they are capable of neurosis in the same sense as human neurosis. Primarily because I dont feel I have enough experince with animals, only some cats and one dog.

    What I am inclined to see and feel, by reading these latter comments, is there seems to me to be a tendency to characterize behavors in animals and relate that directly to behaviors in us humans. I see that as crooked thinking a la Thouless. I personally see another creature being skittish as merely expressing fear.

    I personally find most of these comments to be unscientific, unresaonable, illogical and/or, even irrelevant. It is an extrapolation methodology that I find flawed and capable of directing our thinking and reasoning, into convuluted and complicated conclussions. It sound good, but is it??????

    It relates to what I feel and find is taking place in the study of cosmoplogy. Seemingly, there is an attempt to find evidence out there in the cosmos of another intelligent being. The assumptiom, as I see it, is flawed in, that we have assumed that we are intelligent (far more advanced compared, than any other creature on OUR planet). Advanced in what sense? I strongly refute that notion.

    That idea suggest to me, that another creature on another planet to be as neurotic (fucked- up) as we are, and is unthinkable and worse irrelevant. I base my idea on what my dictionary defines as neurosis. Said another way … I feel the discussion is off on a tangent .. that reveals nothing useful.


    • David says:

      Agreed. But the kindness including cross species kindness I have witnessed makes me wonder if they have superior qualities. I , too, think their confront or run responses are in the moment feeling reactions.
      End of my contribution to variations on this theme, which I fear I stirred in the beginning. I wondered what and why opinions were out there.

    • Phil says:

      Jack, The dog which was beaten and treated cruelly by his master, later, in a good environment still exhibits fearful behavior. Has it learned or been trained according to behavioral theory. No, I tend to think it has been made neurotic. I don’t see why that would be crooked thinking. We are not that different from other animals, especially mammals. Phil

      • jackwaddington says:

        Phil: As I understand the disease/discomfort defined as neurosis, I do feel that some domestic creature are made neurotic (lacking their natural expression) by human intervention. In particular the horse, and some highly trained dogs (for our human use and/or entertainment). There may be others that I am not mentioning here.

        I am not sure if the dog in question is neurotic. From my reading of your comment, it seems to a greater extent that it has learned to express fearful behavior (under what circumstance you did not state). That is not, as I see it, neurotic.

        The “crooked thinking” I refer to is to extrapolate animal behaviors and correlate them with human behaviors. That kind of extrapolation according to my reading of Thoules IS “crooked thinking”. That extrapolation does not stand up to any more than a vague opinion. Science; demands a greater indulgence and peer review scrutiny.


        • Phil says:

          Jack, you seem to agree here that certain animals are made neurotic by human intervention. Why would it only be humans capable of making animals neurotic? On the other hand, in your earlier message, you said you didn’t think that animals could be neurotic. So which is it? Or maybe I haven’t understood. I see no reason why animals, especially higher mammals, wouldn’t have a subconscious if we have one. The brain structures correspond. Animals are used all the time to help study human conditions, so that wouldn’t be an unusual type of extrapolation. We hold similar views on primal but I would point out to you that it is not peer reviewed nor really scientific. So I wonder about that as a point of argument from you. I did a Google search on neurotic animals and there does seem to be opinion supporting that notion. Not all wisdom comes from the book of straight and crooked thinking, (which I didn’t understand to be a textbook of scientific method), or Art Janov. I’m not wedded to the idea of animal neurosis and you could be right, but I’m not following your reasoning. Phil

          Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:43:51 +0000 To:

          • jackwaddington says:

            Phil: It is my contention (solely mine) that animals can be made neurotic, but only through human interverntion. If I did indeed write that animals could not be neurotic; then I mis-wrote. My intent was that no animal left to it’s own NATURAL upbringing would ever become neurotic (given that it was not traumatized by us humans … later)

            The next arguement you profer “I see no reason why animals, especially higher mammals, wouldn’t have a subconscious if we have one”. From my reading of Art Janov and his deliniation of Primal Theory … the subconscious is CREATED at the moment of trauma; when there is the need to block the overwhelming feeling. Blocking off; is what creates the subconscious. To corroborate this I see the purpose of Primal Therapy is:- to bring the subconscious back into consciousness. The subconscious in this context, is something that is CREATED in order that the overwhenlming trauma does not kill us at worst OR, drive us totally crazy (schitzoid) at best.

            That animals are used in laboratories to study biology, and hopefully be able to extrapolate our finding (rather our idea of our findings). I would have thought:- demonstartes my notion of “Human Intervention”.

            Final point (my developed notion over a period of more than 30 year … and yes that is me with the remnants of my neurosis) Talking (the use of language in a ‘pathetic’ means to convey expression of feelings) AND writing is a neurotic ‘act-out’. Since I love blogging and blogging requires me to attempt to portray my sentiments (feelings) on matter that interest me BY writing. I am, by my own definition, using a neuotic technique to express my sentiments. Said another way “head tripping”.

            An addendum:- Way before I read “The Primal Scream” I read “Staight and Crooked Thinking” by Robert H.Thouless (origianally written in 1930 and reprinted in 1954, which is about the time I first read it. I was impressed with the book; one of a few books that I found extremely impressive. I tried from there-on-in to be as straight a thinker as I was able. However on reading Janov’s first book in 1973 I saw that thinking was using only half my brain. The other half was my feeling brain. Having spent many years as a thinker and thinking at the time it was the way to a better living ‘modus’ I found it hard to totally let go of my former rationalizing self. But I will keep on plodding. My last two years ‘New Years Resolutions’ have been to do more expressing of my feeling, AND way less thinking. Not easy … old habits die hard.


            • Phil says:

              Jack, What I wonder; if an animal’s natural upbringing is disturbed, by the loss of the mother for example, what effect that would have. In theory it could produce “neurosis” or whatever you want to call it, as seems to happen to mice or rats under human care, when the mother is removed. I remember reading about animals given an artificial furry milk dispenser in place of the mother. They reached adulthood but had problems. In the wild maybe these animals wouldn’t have survived.

              With writing, such as here on the blog, part of the connection is missing but I wouldn’t necessarily call it an act-out. But in person I’m sure we could reach a more satisfying understanding. Phil

          • David says:

            Pigs are very biologically similar to humans; allowing some pig parts to be transplanted into humans; which is why epigenticists say pig is not fit for human consumption. Consider the number of religions that forbid eating pig, including christianity; or the old testament
            selection at least. There must have been a lot of years of observation for primitives to have reached that conclusion. Humans eat anything advertised now with the right sugar salt ratio to flavor.
            Being afraid is normal, not neurosis; agoraphobia and claustrophobia are; Anger is normal,not neurosis; a compulsion to strike out indiscriminately is.; Sex drive is not neurosis, needing to have sex with every person we know or use it to salve pain is.
            Neurosis is a symbolic behavior in defense against excessive psychobiologic pain. Neurosis is self-perpetuating because symbolic satisfactions cannot fulfill real needs. In order for real needs to be satisfied, they must be felt and experienced. Unfortunately, pain has caused those needs to be buried. When they are buried, the organism goes into a continuous state of emergency alert. That alert state is tension. It propels the infant, and later the adult, toward the satisfaction of need in any way possible. This emergency alert is necessary to ensure the infant’s survival; if he were to give up hope of ever having his needs fulfilled, he might die. The organism continues to live at any cost, and that cost is usually neurosis–shutting down unmet bodily needs and feelings because the pain is too great to withstand.
            I have hired professional grandparents to hold and rock twenty four hours a day severely emotionally deprived / Failure to Thrive toddlers who were dying because of that emotional abuse at our Provincial Children’s Hospital. I have done touch therapy to try to coax toddlers who were victims of , ” Hospital Syndrome,” back into this reality; and counseled the parents to deal with the rage and hate aimed at them when the child began feeling again. It took years to convince hospitals that no child under 14 should be admitted without a parent living in with them full time and to commence soliciting feelings from accident victims at point of admission or as early as possible.

            Can’t say I ever met a non human animal who exhibited survival behavioral response to cope with unmet needs.

            • Phil says:

              David, this discussion stimulated me further today and I found the link below. A book excerpt about experimental neurosis in a dog and sheep, both of them exhibiting shy behavior which seemed to have effected their functioning. Who knows maybe this type of experiment could be a way to prove primal theory. Not the therapy though, as I don’t know if it could be performed on sheep or dogs. Animal models have been used to study the mechanisms of various human diseases. Ethical considerations are maybe a problem. Phil Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 03:22:48 +0000 To:

              • sylvia says:

                Hi Phil. Poor dog and sheep. In regards to your wonder about the dog reliving its trauma that caused shyness; Maybe under the right circumstances they can. I’ve read on Janov’s blog where he tells a little about a rescued, frightened dog of theirs. He said it snuggled in his armpit and whimpered and cried like a baby. He does not go on to say anymore (like if it became less frightened over time.) But I recall in some of the primal writings where a dog after a veterinary procedure, once home and secure howled, presumably about its experience. I’d like to think they can get rid of their pain too.
                You asked before if in other animals the father helps in raising the children. I’ve watched a few gorilla videos on line and the male silverback will care for orphaned, weaned gorillas. Birds, male and female, I think, share in the feeding of the young.

                • Phil says:

                  HI Sylvia,Interesting, maybe we could act as therapist to our pet dogs and catsbecause, as our domestic companions, they can have a certain levelof trust in us.Maybe this is related to the process of animal domestication in general, removing them early from their parents, besides controllingbreeding to emphasize desirable characteristics. We becamesurrogate parents. Apparently very few species can be usefully subject to this process.Phil

                  Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:51:15 +0000 To:

                  • Phil says:

                    I have a sad story to relate about cats. Quite a few years ago when we first moved to the house where we are now, we got two young cats. My wife grew up on a farm where animals were not allowed in the house. The only way I could convince her to get a cat was because of mouse catching ability. Some rodents were eating her flowers outside the house. I said the solution was to get a cat. We ended up with two. However, they could be either outside or come into the basement, but could never be allowed in the living quarters.
                    This arrangement didn’t work out. One of the cats never really got used to us at all,
                    it was fearful. One day when I started my Jeep in the garage an accident took place.
                    Missy had been hiding in the engine and was fatally injured by moving parts in there.
                    I buried her in the backyard.
                    The other cat, Minnie, often disappeared for long periods of time. It turns out she was
                    staying at our neighbors house where there were better accommodations.
                    We got Minnie back but that didn’t last for long. One day she left and never came
                    back. For many days I went out walking and driving around but could never find that cat.
                    My wife still has nightmares about Minnie running away. My younger son always
                    wanted a dog but couldn’t have one due to this thing about not having large animals in the house. We did have good experiences with hamsters, turtles, and fish, however.

                • David says:

                  A long term Canadian wolf study showed that a number of the male wolves in a pack do not mate with females and take on the role of nannies when the rest of the pack are on a hunt. Farley Mowat says they are enormously kind and demonstrative to their young.

              • David says:

                Thank you, Phil. I must admit I’d have to review the posts to figure out why I started this in the first place. I will suss out the links you so kindly provided. I don’t know about subconscious but I am convinced dogs, cats, deer, cows, horses are incredibly intelligent in reasoning, and developing understanding of human vocabulary. I injured my spinal cord last October and have not been able to work on the farm since. It’s a working farm not a place to hang out, so today is the first day I have been back there. I got out of my car and called across the field, ” Where’s Davey’s girl?” I saw a head go up and across the field trots Tara and sticks her snout through the fence for a nose kiss. My buddy says I shouldn’t talk about this relationship anywhere a psychiatrist might overhear… hah
                So I know she has long term memory.

    • Patrick says:

      Cosmoplogy ?

    • Phil says:

      Jack, We are probably done with this topic but I had a few more thoughts on it. And that is how we are different from animals; our thinking capacity, straight or crooked. But neurosis is a disorder of feelings not thoughts, isn’t it? A key question would be, do animals have feelings? I think they do. Humans, no doubt, can be neurotic in a greater variety of ways and with more complexity as compared to animals. For animals maybe a different word should be used for the disorder to make that distinction. All of this is just my opinion, subject to change and not scientific. Phil

      • jackwaddington says:

        Phil: if you have more thoughts to comment upon the matter, by definition, it is not “done with”

        Maybe I read Arthur Janov all wrong. That aside for now, I read neurosis as either or both the feeling sensation (relegated to the subconscious) and/or the EXPRESSION of that feeling. “Two components” if my memory serves me correctly. If you are not, as it seems to me, talking about both these factors, but merely just mentioning the feeling sensation aspect of a full-feeling; then we are more than likely to be talking cross purposes.

        Just to clarify my notion. Thinking; disconnected from a feeling, is a factor of neurosis. The brain is:- as I read it, an organ solely meant to organize the expression of the feeling and then appropriately re-act to it. All the rest, language, mathematics, and the rest of our need to be taught (as opposed to being allowed to learn) is part of that process that we created; in order to NOT feel the unutterable feelings due to our rearing both in early child-hood and utero.

        If we do not come to some understanding of what is meant with words then we are on the path to MISUNDERSTANDING of one another.


    • Patrick says:

      Jack wrote “I personally find most of these comments to be unscientific, unreasonable, illogical and/or, even irrelevant. It is an extrapolation methodology that I find flawed and capable of directing our thinking and reasoning,blah blah blah……………..”

      Now there’s a guy on a roll………………….4 ‘un’s and ‘in’s in a row……………I can see why he does not want any ‘intellectuals’ around…………..he wants it all to hims\elf………… ‘pretenders’ to the throne he is the TRUE Keeper of the Crypt and he wants to keep it that way…………….get out of the way all you ‘pretender’ intellectuals I am the REAL intellectual………………he chides people for being ‘in their heads’ but what is he?……….well ‘in his head’ of course…………of course like most things he takes after his ‘guru’ Janov who also derided all ‘intellectuals’ so his ‘mock intellectualism’ could be the one and only one………….come to think of it is that why he objects so strongly to Guru calling himself the ultimate and superstar guru…………..there is only ONE true guru………………Janov of course but Jack is SO close to him his reflected glory shines on him………………he is an ‘obedient’ little Lucifer no rebellion from him……………..just kissing the ass of what he perceives as authority…………an authority who will have little if anything to do with him……………well one time he said his ‘book’ was OK……………………..

      • David says:

        Whoa…. some say this is a just a comic act , you and Jack, between two good friends. If so have at it if it entertains you. If not,it is a bit of violent vitriolic diatribe which I find disturbing. Doesn’t do a thing for me in terms of ferreting out my buried stuff. Patrick just for my edification what have you done for humankind that comes up to the bootstraps of Arthur Janov.?? I don’t know perhaps you are the current personification of messiah. I saw through that silly god story when I was 12.
        Your Janov is not my Janov; ie: our impressions of the man. You apparently have done a live autopsy on the man so that you know his most personal thoughts, his motivations, perhaps even better than Mr. Janov. does. Do you not find that troubling. That would not be indicative of fabulous mental health. If this coming from your Daddy stuff ?? I wonder if he slanders you? Oh that’s right, he doesn’t know your exist. I’m sorry that hurts you.

        • Patrick says:

          David – I do not NEED to know his “his most personal thoughts, his motivations” but I DO see and have seen his ‘results’ or his ‘works’. By their fruits you shall know them and please leave out your amateurish attempts at ‘psycho-analising’ me……………..have you not learned anything or very much……………of course like most ‘primallers’ you are very much stuck at first base…………….that is part of the program……………keep people forever not grown up and forever needing ‘therapy’……………

          • David says:

            You are certainly compelled to tell us all the real truth and the whole truth, oh wise one. That biblical crap is very mature. And if this is not a friendly comic routine then you have an apparent obsession with Jack. Being so opposed to Primal and full of hate for the guru why do you shop here.? Your conclusions are not borne out in fact. No, no; why am I debating the unarmed ?? I should be ashamed. Actually I was a professional psychotherapist. I didn’t do that shit to anyone then.

  51. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > not yet, the lady says they are still to small and the cat mommies too protective for a visit.
    > but maybe next week or so she will let me know when the time is right for a first visit, look forward to it of course.
    > seven kittens, and probably all gorgeous and endearing!
    > will try to keep it to just one, might give the vet a call first to make up my mind, two is nice but can also get more complicated..
    > i am home a lot of the time so there will be plenty of company, and hopefully cats don’t mind to feel they are the only feline ruling the place..
    > M

  52. Otto Codingian says:


  53. Patrick says:

    Below is something I read this week by a guy called Jon Rappoport which I found interesting and it seems to me true of the way the world is going………………..

    “To place every person on the planet into a cradle-to-grave system of diagnosing and drugging vaccinations and interference.. To make every person, first and foremost, a medical patient. To thereby condition every person to obey orders.


    The doctor knows. Don’t question him. Just do what he tells you to do. Comply. From now until they lower your body into the ground. Take the drugs, and become more debilitated and, therefore, more obedient at a much deeper level.
    This is the foremost system of eliciting obedience in the world.

    We’ve recently seen the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, issue a dictum about vaccination. Former exemptions have been canceled. Families receiving government aid will be cut off from that money if they refuse to vaccinate their children. No more freedom.

    Obey or else.

    When you can get citizens to obey in one area, there is a spillover to other areas. They become accustomed to a life of surrender. They give in. They go along. They yield on one front, so they yield on another”.

  54. Patrick says:

    Cosmoplogy………..reminds me of this scene from Spinal Tap about “Dobly”………….

    • David says:

      Or the practice of rectocranialinversion….

      • sylvia says:

        Nice to learn new words, David.

        • David says:

          Patrick’s words dumped me into my reptile brain. I lashed out. I’m not so nice as I thought I am.

          • Patrick says:

            That’s fine David………………I do that to people it seems…………..probably because I very much reside in my own reptile brain…………..the part that says ‘give me mine, don’t take it away from me eff the guy who might do that etc etc……………..I like the way you can check yourself……………if EITHER Jack or I could do that it would not have gone on so long……………..the reptile brain is very concerned with SURVIVAL…………..that’s me all right…………

            • David says:

              Reading your words of comment to me brought out in me something I later recognized from youth, put a third, outsider, in with me and my best bud, and we verbally ganged up on him, had sport with him, shat on him. So that’s what I wanted to do to you, dump on you with insulting comments for insulting, “Primal.” The safety offered by teenage ganging up by two’s or gang is replicated by the distance and anonymity of this gadget.
              I think that’s where my, ” great defender,” “dave the brave,” behavior came from, started about age 14. At age 14 I threw a hung over man, a stranger, out through his window because he was threatening more beating to his bruised wife and his daughter. Like some Charles Bronson character I then went outside and stood over him listening to him curse and threaten me and hoping he’d get up and challenge me. I had 14 years of hate I guess I wanted to take out on him.
              Until now that story was known only to that family, the delivery guy I was working for, and me. All these years I was rather proud of how brave I had been, Humph. Not sure how to see it now.

              Sober,or less so, I always could be pushed or led by the ear, remain good natured, with no resistance. In either state if I saw someone else being bullied I was all over it, naively without regard for my safety, physically and legally.
              I would never want to be the coward who closes his shades when a person in danger is outside screaming for help.
              But there’s a line isn’t there ??

              • Patrick says:

                David – I like the way you ‘cop’ to things………….if you hang around here for a while I wonder if you still will feel ok to do so. I hope so but well let’s say I have my doubts. Another ‘ironic’ effect of ‘primal’…………………..and to be clear my ‘doubts’ are not about you it’s more about the ‘environment’ (here)…………..

                • David says:

                  Yeah it’s as cannibalistic as the Association of Professional Social Work tribe and the legislated Naturopathy hierachy. We espoused on unconditional acceptance, respect, blah , blah, and then feed on each other to gain favor of the political handlers. I was hated by the bureaucrats. I used to delight looking into their eyes when they were forced to say something nice about me in a public forum.
                  I assumed as we evolved, moving , ” Towards a Primal World,” and hopefully attaining such community; we would heal to a large extent, live in loving harmony with one another, and if we still needed to shit on anyone we’d collectively and in concert rage against the bastards who damaged us and be tolerant for each other’s foibles, presuming they don’t include wantingly harming others, and feel sad for one another. That’s my Utopia.

                  Spinning of the accidental thorns of people going their own way can be a blessing, a tool for further release of pain. Deliberately setting out to hurt someone is just plain fucked. No role for me in that family dynamic. I had a full childhood of it. I as the only surviving sanity out of that mess, bar my wonderful grandfather.
                  My sibs are born again christians or alcohol addicts. They tried to convince me that I was broken and an embarrassment because I am neither. I save money because I don’t have to pay to belong to either of those country clubs.

                  Shit all I ever wanted to do was love and let love. Beats hell out of looking over my shoulder for the next nut with a perceived score to settle. fuck, i did it again , pontificate, puff and blow..

                  Cheers ( my youngest brought that home from his years,”abroad.” hah; good kid.)

  55. Hey All, I really need you to ” rat out” your fellow retreat participants and let me know who has a birthday that falls during the week of the upcoming retreat. You can email me at – Thanks, Gretch p.s. Nice to have you joining us on the blog David 🙂

    • David says:

      Long time since I sat in your presence. Your kindness and competence are legendary. That guy you hang out with is not too shabby either. hah
      Mary, you may know is a psychologist in Colorado; her sister Theresa is a Doc of Naturopathic Medicine located near me.

      much respect, david

  56. Margaret says:

    > hi Phil, and Sylvia,
    > the male seahorse, don’t know if it is the proper name in English, this tiny animal with a head a bit like a horse’ and a curly tail with which it holds on to branches of seaweed and stuff, well, they take over the eggs and young of their wifes and keep it in some kind of pouch and take care of then, kind of a surrogate very good mommy role.
    > and to be honest, I hope there is no need anymore for more animal experiments about neurosis, I always get very distressed when reading about them,many of these experiments are so cruel.
    > Phil, that is a sad story about your cats. it is a surprise your wife still has nightmares about the cat running away, and not about the other one in the car..
    > hopefully she has again found someone maybe providing her with a lush personal pillow on the couch smiley.. cats tend to get a bit opportunistic on this level..
    > M

    • David says:

      Not to detract from the deserved solemnity of your post, but reading the first line or so, my silly brain wrote, “… no Margaret, not called a sea horse in English, that’s a “tony abbott.” Don’t know where that came from ? sign of a sick man, I’m sure.
      Then I read further and I withdraw my satirical substitution, because by all reports Australian PM, Tony Abbott, does not have any care or concern for other than his white republican social group, even the vulnerable young

      . unh; damn, broke through my soap box…..

    • David says:

      Forced to live with or at the mercy of humans is perhaps the most prominent experiment. I doubt if my best effort to be a surrogate family mate was ever good enough. I was likely more the recipient of good fortune than they.

  57. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > don’t censor yourself too much, so far I enjoyed reading your contributions.
    > we have all searched how best to deal with some of the occasional vitriolic verbal diarrrea occasionally dripping over the blog.
    > you are doing fine so far im ny opinion, standing your ground with reasonable and sound arguments and a touch of humour.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I can’t help but feel you are referring to me……………..I don’t like that……………I have given you my ‘apologies’ or at least my ‘explanations’ more than once…………….yet you CONTINUE your jabs…………….you have had your session with Gretchen now try to put a bit of what you learned into effect. I will not be just a punching bag for you I can imagine you feel so ‘justified’ but I as I have told you several times have a different take.

      When I see you ‘sizing up’ a new little cat it seems to be here comes another ‘victim’ a victim that will be shot full of vaccinations and drugs and ‘interference’ and ‘love’. Your kind of ‘love’ something to keep you from feeling alone someone who will not be remotely allowed to be themselves – a cat – something to be ‘vaccinated’ against meeting other cats…………….anyway I am going off again but it pisses me off you continue your jabs (both meanings of the word) and nonsense…………

      Also I don’t get the feeling you have ‘learned’ anything from you last experience you will do the same again with your new cat…………….including your cute little ‘final act’?. I still don’t like that but it seems it’s all about you, how to salve your loneliness, the cat is just a prop…………….I know I have an ‘issue’ with this……………what is ‘love’ is it as it seems to be for the most part ‘selfish’ I suppose it is maybe just my ‘stupid’ Catholic upbringing taught me it was something else………………..

      • Anonymous says:

        Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms.

        • Many claims of sexual abuse against Catholic Priests turn out to be false

          The Catholic Church has paid out billion$ in settlements over the past decade to alleged (my emphasis) abuse victims. There’s no denying some people were sickeningly abused, but how do you ferret out the false claims?

          Anybody can say anything, and if I was a janitor working my ass off for $10 an hour, for example, it could appear mighty tempting to lay a false claim against a neighborhood priest that he did something bad to me as a child for a quickie million dollar settlement. (Equaling 100,000 hours of janitorial work…50 years full time manual labor in exchange for blurting out “he abused me!”)

          Gold diggers are always attracted to the latest gravy train.

          • Patrick says:

            Guru – you make a good point there. I grew up Catholic including 5 years in an all male boarding school,run by priests I am NOT recommending that but I never was ‘bothered’ by anyone either another student or any of the priests in anything of a sexual nature. Neither did I see or even hear of any ‘abuses’ of any kind

            Again just my experience but I suspect a fair amount of these ‘claims’ now may be motivated by money or at least in part by money. Like you say if someone’s life is not going so well…………hmmm maybe I was ‘abused’ a bit this could be money…………….

            I assume it was David who wrote though it said ‘anonymous’ but from the context I am pretty sure it was him.

            “Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms”

            I really don’t like that kind of talk. Well maybe just leave it at that but I really don’t like it. Some people even say a lot of “Jewish” lawyers got very rich ‘dismembering’ the Catholic Church

            • David says:

              Hello Patrick, No, this didn’t come from me. I always own what I say, as outrageously silly as it may be sometimes.
              “Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms”

              That sounds like vomitous non directed rage; you know, off the chart fury but not able to direct it at the deserving target of the rage..

              Do you think that state could be a component of targeted but random mass murders: eg: the school shootings.

              I did have professional contact with a number of RC and Anglican priests in the 70’s and 80’s who left their professions, who disclosed that they had been sexually abused in seminary by the, ” old priests. The clergy of all stripes show up in forensic studies as high on the sexual perversion and abuser scales; doctors a close second. By profession, doctors and professional police placed highest on spousal abuse and spousal homicide. Psychologists and Social Workers scored tops
              in poorly controlled spending and consumer debt.

              We treated sexually abused ,”children,” of medical docs including, psychiatrist and pediatrician.

              • Patrick says:

                David – hmmm I wonder who DID write it then? I guess ‘un-focused’ rage could end up anywhere school shootings included………….one thing that strikes me about Catholic Church abuse is like in Ireland now and for the past 10 years they endlessly beat themselves up about it, the people in general I mean, endless ‘guilt’ about it and it’s like they can never flagellate themselves enough about it but what I notice is there is very LITTLE discussion about how to ‘solve’ it. To me there is an easy answer to that allow priests to marry…………that is basically the root of the problem But it’s interesting to me how people rather than ‘look forward’ to a solution they would prefer to endlessly wallow in the past………………I even relate this to ‘primal’ and I mean in my own case. A strong tendency to ‘look back’ and beat myself up rather than well you know……….

                (Jack to be clear I am really talking about myself and maybe why ‘primal’ appealed to me so much – there really is no need to ‘defend’ your/the Faith)

                • David says:

                  The whole sexual cleric predator gets popularly dumped on RC priests. In my professional experience I found it to be ubiquitous throughout the clergy married and unmarried; also the Roman Catholic married deacons. Children were not the sole victims but also age 16 + and mature female parishioners. The RC priest and church residential school abuse experience here is that the victims are primarily boys, both pre and post pubescent. Not just abuse but murder of children occurred there. The pedophile and sexual predator priests were not attracted to same sex adult relationships.
                  I had one priest come out to a parishioner, whose husband physically abused her and ritualistically sexually abused their daughter for several years, that he had sex with a woman lover when he was out of province on vacation. He potentially exposed himself to punctuate sexual normalcy, something that was eluding her because of abuse and religious conflicts.
                  His bravity raised him high in my respect.

          • David says:

            While imperfect, as is any rule, one consideration when investigating is that people lie to get out of trouble, not in it. Outing oneself as a victim especially by a man against a man is to mark yourself forever by a segment of society as also being a pervert. The cross examination is no picnic. That said ,since adults know about sex it is easier for them to fabricate a story about abuse. Although it would be tough for a man to describe the emotional and physical experience of being anally raped if it hadn’t happened. A good psychopathic actor could pull it off. Most reporting victims of clergy abuse are male. We have had accusations against nuns. One was convicted of horrendous physical assault and humiliation of girls. It is believed she murdered children. In another province a huge case against Nuns began, and suddenly disappeared when reportedly enough money made it go away. During my practice it was impossible to gain prosecution of female sexual abusers acting on their own. Society was not ready for that blow. It’s believed that only sexual abuse by a prominent care taker can explain certain later behaviors. The lack of reports of these abuses by males is explained by that it usually ends around age 4. If the male child refuses he can’t be intimidated into having an erection. We all know know how tough it is to access those early memories. And our society does not have much love or tolerance for their act outs, delinquent behavior, youth homelessness, child prostitution.

            One of the failures of Right to Lifers, their vigilance ends with delivery.

            I established case law to allow me to hire lawyers to be present during proceedings to protect children as young as 8 from being further abuse by crown and defense counsel.

          • David says:

            Oddly I have found who profoundly believe on the gravy train opportunists theory and those who warn us to be on the lookout for them have been the ones with their snouts deepest in the trough.

      • David says:

        Not to pile on, but I have thought for the past 40 years that it is an injury to companion animals to separate them from their parent(s) and whelp mates at the conventional age. Separation from mom is understood by us all I think. Separation from whelp mates means cutting them off from important relationship experience, rough housing, normal mouthing, chewing on sibs, conflict resolution. I’m amazed more don’t act out with aggression towards us stead of in with passive or obedience behaviors.
        Enslaved peoples don’t revolt and commit genocide against the invaders or slavers; historically they self harm and create expression secret to their group. White north america’s survival particularly as power broker is a case study in point.

        Not to try to paint me as a higher life form but the only time non humans who lived with me went to a vet was in case of severe injury. That’s also the only time this animal goes to an Allopathic doctor/MD. 69 now, I’ll report on how that worked out in another 30 years.( huma). I learned at great tragic cost to canine I adopted. The contract required that he be castrated before release to my home. I spent enough time with him at the shelter what kind of guy he was. What I received after surgery was an intellectually brain damaged boy. Research / Dr. Andrew Pitcairn; uncovered the cause. Vaccinations given at point of surgery cross the brain blood barrier, piggy backed on the anesthetic designed to do just that, and poison the brain.

        Natural approaches to healing and a home prepared mock natural diet were followed. The same with the farm animals.

        Shit, there I go, at the pulpit again. david the wise… Totally quiet for long expanses an then, pow…

        I always gritted my teeth listening to my father’s soliloquies. They were deathly embarrassing, even more painful than his unspoken hate for me. It was worse to me that people would judge him a fool.

        Now I do it….

        At the risk of gratuitous comment, Mr Bear in the wild has survived as a species without a vet. His only real threat is us.
        To , ” quote, ” ??? Pink Floyd, ” Peoples, leave those kits alone.” Lots of abandoned and seniors facing euthanasia needing a home to escape the NEEDLE available for adoption..

        We all need some salving; at least this,”we,” does…. That may be what we get from a healthy relationship. Just sayin’ man…

        • Margaret says:

          > David,
          > I can relate to some extent to what you say, but only partly so.
          > I have talked about this before here so will try to be brief.
          > I do not want to go to breeders for a pet, and join the commercial circuit of breeding design animals.
          > but adopting a stray cat’s kitten is merely providing a safe home for an animal already there and needing one.
          > it is a win win situation, not all cats are so lucky to find a home with a great outdoors that is free of cars and coyotes, but mine has cought her fair share of mice here and enjoyed that.
          > if we wait ten to eleven weeks, the kitten or puppy seems to be ready to explore the world while bonding with a new companion, curiosity prevailing over the old nest’s familiarity.
          > it is in many ways a natural thing, we had cats when I was young, outdoors and occasionally indoors as well, and the mother used to chase the young at a certain age to go their own way.
          > I carefully watched my former cat when I got her, had waited about ten weeks, before taking her with me to her new home, and I asssure you, she was really at ease and happy and adjusted instantly.
          > we were a few people watching her, while she did the tour of the place, exploring all the corners in a quick and smooth check-up, and then she jumped onto the bed and curled up very much as to say, mmmm, purring and graciously accepting all the smiles and sounds of admiration and approval, to then go for a delicious nap.
          > she used to sleep cuddled up in my hair, once in the palm of my hand, and bonded rightaway with me as one more big almost furless cat that clumsily walked on its hind legs, but that was ok otherwise.
          > she showed her affection in many ways, got a lot of care and attention, with me being around almost all the time, and well, I am sure she had a very happy life really, not as a cat in the wild but as a domesticated cat.
          > i am sure it would even be better if I’d have a large garden, but still, she could go out on the terrace and roof and caught a couple of pigeons even, which luckily she released spontaniously when I approached to check out what the racket was about..
          > I have heard your words, given them some thought, and then thought of and remembered my purring cat cuddling up against me, and felt she liked me, liked her life and was happy.
          > not a perfect life, I agree, feel bad about not having been able to let her have her own kittens, but that is reality too, there are too many already, who sadly enough often end up in much worse circumstances.
          > believe me, I am concerned with what is right and what is not, so don’t feel I have learned or gained anything with these comments, that are not helpful in any way to me.
          > that is probably not their goal anyway, just saying.
          > I am glad to say I follow my own conscience and feelings on this one, and the cats as far as I can honestly observe then while I do my best to provide them with a happy life, and make it as fullfilling and pleasant as possible, within my possibilities.
          > maybe look at yourself instead and check if all is so perfect there?
          > M

          • sylvia says:

            Hi Margaret. Reading about the care you have for your cat reminds me. The lengths I’ve gone to over the years for cats. Once I tracked down, or tried to, a mother cat the day after her giving birth in fear she would not return to her newborns. I got to know the whole neighborhood by way of my cats. I ask, “have you seen my tabby cat and if you do she answers to ‘Elsie?” The neighbor gentleman said “no, but I’ll remember her name because that’s my wife’s name.” Finally Elsie came home after hunting.
            I’ve had 3 week old kittens lose their mom to the hi-way, and we bottle-fed all 5 babies. I taught them to hunt rats by shining a light up the wall of the barn and up they’d go.
            Recently with my elder cat (the biter) I’m having to change her diet because of kidney problems. I thought she might be diabetic, but okay so far. In my research of diabetic cats it is not an easy or pleasant life for them with the glucose testing and shots.
            I’m glad you are doing better and am always glad to find you here. Your future kitty will be very lucky to have your care.

            • David says:

              Sylvia, I agree. It is abusive what has been done to animals to satisfy neurotic humans. Did you construe I was advocating supporting breeders ??
              I am a “student” of Dr. Andrew Pitcairn teachings. I would never order a breeders’ cat or dog. All of my non humans family have been rescues, orphans, including the horses that would have gone for meat as they failed the highest working horse gradings. They were too intelligent to be subservient; marvelous to get on with cooperatively when their intellect was respected.

          • David says:

            Wow that last line is a 6 yer old poorly veiled warning shot over my bow, Margaret. Does anyone call you M, or Mag or Maggy or Peggy ??
            Patrick is correct, you do come in sneaky and nasty when you sense an afront, I was not attacking you. Just sharing my well informed information. After completing my doctoral degree in Naturopathy, I took studies in animal development and care from the perspective of a practitioner with a Phd in Animal/Veterinary Medicine, and decades of experience in wild and domestic animal care. He noted he never treated a wild animal who had any of their domesticated descendent’s diseases and affectations; nor fleas and ticks problems; no matted hair that plagues my well groomed long hair calico, Mao, every spring full name Mouse y Tongue ( Mao zedong ???); who has never met a rodent she didn’t befriend. Needs to be reeducated, I know.. sister of Mitsu, the wise and loving, Moishe Patch Eye, the inventor, Mouse the Silly, and ” M eye Five” their fierce mother, who only is friendly towards me when no other cat is in sight; all feral, who chose to come in an open door and stay. I’m their house staff.

            Some thought comes from the accepted animal science rule, when I studied, that at 1 year of age a cat has attained the brain maturity of a 5 year old human; the social capacity of a teenager at about 12, and stalls there. I would never separate a 5 year old from his mom. I would offer up to any orphan, with no one else though.

            I have personally seen what happens to the children sent off at age 8, 10, 12, to strangers, to pursue someone’s dreams of becoming a, musician super star, ballerina diva, sports celebrity, modelling sensation. I wept for those babes and the families they would someday go on to create,their parents blind to the harm they were doing. to their babies. Another example, the residential schools, the publicly funded and the privately purchased, by the wealthy, torture chambers. A S Neill documented that tragedy very well. And it has always struck me that his
            methods of therapy bordered on primal for children. What children’s psych unit would pay a nanny to keep a child clean who is defending by defecation and not reprimanded; and, then to go further by paying the child when he did a really big shit in his underwear. The modern geniuses would put him in a secured by locking device disposable diaper,a behavior modification program ,and meds.

            We of all people should know what happens when we fuck with nature. I’m a reasonably high functioning example. Like the white skinned mulatto, you’d never pick me out in the crowd of “whiteys.”

            The concern for happiness, if you like, of all living things has been a facet of this imperfect me. I tear when I see road kill. Someone’s natural destiny was stolen.

            My ex-wife once said it didn’t make her feel special being so well loved by me because I loved everyone and everything. Odd that was what initially attracted her to me. hmm.. A better shortcoming than abusing, I figure.

            I wrote a large sample group of human adopters in 1989. I asked them to describe their adopted children, placed with them between ages of newborn and three years. The response painted an astounding picture, for me. The children over 3 months of age when adopted were described as being essentially identical to their older birth sibs; having had no interaction for more than a decade.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Patrick: in response to your May 14th 3:37 am comment I get the feeling that you love to dole out the vitriol, but it seems you get really, really upset when someone merely just hints at your imperfections. AND I am not the first to mention it

        Just a hint from “The keeper of the Crypt” If it seemingly hurts you that bad … how about checking your dumping on others?

        No guarantee it work however.


  58. Patrick says:

    “What is love anyway/does anyone love anybody anyway”

    • David says:

      ” What’s love but a second hand emotion ,”

      Next line, “Tina,”…..

      • jackwaddington says:

        I have heard two explanations of what is love:- the first came from some little girl when one of the muppets asked that question “What is love?” and the little girl replied “Hugs and kisses and a warm feeling inside” That really touched me. The other was a little more ‘academic’ and was words to the effect:- When allowing all NEEDS to be met.

        There are not a lot of needs in order to survive in relative comfort. If I remember them correctly they were:- to be allowed to breath freely, to be fed when needed, to be kept warm and clean, free movement, touched and/or held and freely express what we feel.

        As I understand it, there is the that other use of the word, when used with:- “Falling in LOVE”. I think perhaps that is what you David meant with “…. a second hand emotion”. I would prefer to use the term:- ‘the other second meaning’.

        One is being loving … the other being loved …. .


        • David says:

          T’was my SILLY GENE jumping into the driver’s seat again, Jack. I have not viewed the video yet. I was nudged to recall a Tina Turner song, ” What’s Love Got to Do With It,” that quote is the 2nd lyric line in the bridge.

          I have the fondest and most revered place inside me for the faces of love. The greatest gift I ever received was being permitted to be a caretaker of my babes. My youngest, Rachael, died at age 4, after open heart surgery. She would have been 38, May 24th. Her favorite song was Ms Charlie MacLaine’s, ” Surround Me With Love,” offered at full volume while , ” accompanying,” herself on piano., ” Whatever comes I’ know I’ll make, because you surround me with love.” I thought my great love would guarantee her survival. I was wrong. I should have sold my fucking house and taken her to Russia for the surgery. Her surgeon suggested I should seek psychiatric help when I started crying when we met to discuss ,” her file,” 6 weeks after her death.
          I held my tongue because my grandfather taught me never to debate an unarmed man.

          She brought out the best of my humanity. I miss her.

  59. Margaret says:

    > just for all other reders of the blog, although I don’t think anyone or almost noone is that stupid to not know this, the friend I was disappointed in I mentioned when talking about my session, was definitely not Patrick, ha!
    > the only frase exchanged about him in my session was that it was a relief not to have him on the blog for a while.
    > and mahybe just a few more words like sick and crazy, haha!
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I did not ‘assume’ either that you were referring to me……………I am not that presumptuous but and maybe I am wrong I DID think you were referring to me with this

      “we have all searched how best to deal with some of the occasional vitriolic verbal diarrhea occasionally dripping over the blog.”

      Were you? it’s a simple matter only you know what is in your mind. A ‘yes’ or ‘no’ would be nice. So no need to be ‘cute’ about it. Like when Otto (I think) compared me to his dog there was a bunch of ‘speculation’ from you but HE never answered. So much for ‘primal straightness’ a value more honored in the breach than the observance to use an old phrase

      And speaking about ‘verbal diarrhea’ to use your phrase isn’t what you wrote kind of an example of that? I don’t like the way you feel free to write all kinds of crap on/about me but you are so ‘precious’ about any criticism of yourself.

      As far as you getting a ‘new’ cat I notice there is already a vet on the scene, proving ot me you have learned nothing, you will do the same again torture and hurt the poor thing for what you think is right for it and you will ‘finish it off’ too if you decide that’s what’s good for it. So check yourself a bit, I know you feel in the majority here……………….does not make your ‘right’

      • Phil says:

        Patrick, About your brother’s sheep; that isn’t any kind of experiment. It’s like a smoker saying he doesn’t think smoking causes cancer because he hasn’t gotten it yet, or that he knows a smoker who lived to the age of 90. Pretty much a worthless random observation. Phil

        • Patrick says:

          Phil – I TOTALLY dis-agree!!

          • David says:

            SHIIIIT !! Jon Stewart is leaving the Daily Show. They may be looking for new writers and faux, ” correspondents.” Break me up .
            Are you and Jack the same age, Patrick. He mentioned in a blog working with you years back with one of my early LA employers, Mike Lewis; the rat !! I try to convince myself that my brain is not atrophying with little brain games, occasionally, like driving through LA. I think Mike Lewis’s street name started with, “C”; but that might represent some other word that came to mind when I read his name. If I was an artist I could paint his house from memory.
            Here I go…. I felt this great bit of hope and comfort when Rory ??? told me he had referred me to Mike Lewis for more frequent work than Rory had to offer. I had a friend back here named Mike Lewis. Our kids played sports together. I coached because I didn’t want some moron fucking with my kids’ heads. He was a great guy, great dad. Mike had died with a brain tumor just before I left for LA.
            The contrast between the two Mikes could not have been more exaggerated.
            Associations, eh ???

            • Patrick says:

              I worked for Mike Lewis too – I even crashed his truck one time (brakes failed not ‘really’ my fault). This was also part of my ‘baptism’ in LA and was one of the things that ‘alerted’ me that primal seemed to ‘fail’ most of the time. I met him and many others like him who had been around for years and years and it was like huh?…………..I was talking to a friend a few days ago and we were talking about what we expected primal people to be like and for some reason I came up with maybe like Led Zeppelin only ‘cooler……………and he was like ‘yeah something like that. Then we both laughed at our absurd fantasies.

              • David says:

                I needed that. Mike sent us out to move the ,”dad” character, Michael Gross, on ” Family Ties,” out of storage on the production co lot to a gated house in Malibou; with that fucking ancient Ford pickup and the furniture van. The guy was in a forced move situation. I listened to Mike on the phone with told Gross his fleet of Moving Vans was solidly booked for weeks but if it would help him out he’d send out two certified moving technicians with the truck and trailer he reserved for transporting boxes and moving blankets to the job. No, he did not have any furniture robes left, they were all on his vans.
                WE got to the job, me, two days in the bizz, and one very hung over, ” Louie,” from NY, with a splitting head ache, who by appearance I worried might roll me when the customer paid the cash job.
                Gross had a fucking painting that was worthy more than Mike’s house. I told him the truth about Lewis Moving Corporation, what we arrived in was the company equipment; that we had no insurance and that the only way I was moving anything was for him to have the production company office type up a Waiver releasing me and Louie from any and all liability arising from damage to his furniture. He did so. We went into carpentry and he took 4 sheets of inch thick hard wood plywood and 4 sheets of 4 ” egg crate impact absorbent foam; and rolls of duct tape and furniture robes. We packed that painting, loaded and delivered Buddy’s furniture.
                We retired from Lewis futures.

        • Patrick says:

          Phil – to explain a bit more why I think that…………..the results on ONE person or animal can tell you a whole lot………….more than the ‘averages’ beloved of medical science and ‘blind controls’. …………..most of medicine is totally cluttered up with statistical ‘truths’ (non truths usually). The smartest people in medicine are beginning to say this they talk about each person’s N=1, a statistical sample of ONE or of YOURSELF. I would say pay attention to that and not so much to statistics.

          • Phil says:

            Patrick, There’s probably no point in debating this but there could be a whole lot of reasons why the sheep were healthy one year and less so another. It’s great that they are doing well, just that I wouldn’t draw large conclusions from that. It is simply one observation which is worth a lot less than thousands of observations. Phil

            Primal Institute wrote:


            Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.

            Comment URL: ( Post URL: (

            This was in response to Phil:

            • David says:

              On the biodynamic organic farm I work on our sheep , cattle, and goats always do well. They eat a plant based, grain free diet; free of all chemical medicines. They do not require deworming. They graze on the hard scratch fields they are genetically engineered to thrive on..
              They are spared the stress of man shearing and dipping.They are permitted to naturally shed and the wool is collected.
              I use homeopathic remedies as needed with the critters but the sheep never need it..

          • Phil says:

            Patrick, To add more to what I said, if you found something that works for you I can understandabout going with that, I would do that too. But that, to me, doesn’t mean throwing out all medicine, vaccinesetc. I watched about half of Dr, Kruse’s interview you posted, I don’t know what to make of that, I can’t really evaluate it.He talks about subatomic workings, but what goes on at cellular, organ and the organism levels is stillimportant. What Dr. Kruse talks about is at the opposite end of the spectrum from primal, so the two don’t really gotogether. But Kruse may have valuable findings, he certainly is totally convinced. Phil

            Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 01:59:34 +0000 To:

            • Patrick says:

              Phil – I take your point that Kruse might seem the opposite of primal…………….but not really to me…………the way I think of it is what is reality?……………….if someone makes a ‘discovery’ about some important aspect of ‘ reality’ is is ‘coupled’ with lots of other things that might not at first seem related……………he knows a bit about organs and cells etc after all his day job is a brain surgeon.

              But I have to admit having gone ‘off’ him a bit recently. Since I met him actually. Also now I feel he under-estimates the damage of certain things (vaccines especially) and possibly over-estimates the dangers of cell phones etc. Still he is a formidable presence at least I think so. The way I see it ALL of these things are damaging it’s a matter of degree and some emphasize some aspects others different ones.

              I have tried to interest him in primal I gave him Janov’s book “Life Before Birth” but yes I suppose that is what you are saying………………now I start to feel as good as he is he has blind spots too. It seems everyone has blind spots or so I see it……………..

              • Phil says:

                Patrick, I realize Kruse is a brain surgeon, but he no longer seems to think much of his medical training. I don’t have any chronic medical condition I need help with, and that’s why Dr. Kruse doesn’t interest me. No need to change what I am doing. Phil

      • David says:

        I want to add Patrick that the remarks, levied against you, that you’d approve of child sexual abuse, in the RC religion post, that’s just plain DIRTY. Too far below the muck to even be reptilian.
        The anonymity is actually comforting. I’d never give an ounce to someone in hiding.

        • Patrick says:

          The anonymity is also ‘cowardly’ and ‘weak’…………..something I have gotten a bit used to here……………….you are a nice change a breath of fresh air to a stuffy room that needed it pretty badly. Hope you can keep going……………

  60. And, I also wanted to write “Hi” to Margaret. I am doing OK, but all this talk about animals doesn’t really light my rockets, you know? I wish you the best in your future feline endeavors, nonetheless.

  61. Patrick says:

    Quote again from Jon Rappoport

    ““To place every person on the planet into a cradle-to-grave system of diagnosing and drugging vaccinations and interference.. To make every person, first and foremost, a medical patient. To thereby condition every person to obey orders”

    My addition to the above: not only every person……………….but every cat, dog,, sheep, cow, goat, even maybe rabbit do the same………………..I am glad to report that my brother’s sheep are all great and un-fucked with for a change………………

    • jackwaddington says:

      But at some time; aren’t they going to be slaughtered against their own wishes or input … by slitting their throats and leaving their own heart to beat such that it drains the blood out before the actually die.

      Seems you know what it means for sheep to feel “great” yeah!!!! Least-ways until they are led to the slaughter housse

      Will this remain another unanswered comment?????


      • David says:

        I hunted deer in the years when I was a meat eater. I always felt great remorse after a kill. I always apologized to the deer and thanked it for the meat. Don’t know where that came from. In 2008 I learned that my father’s biological father was North American Indian. I began frequenting a local
        reserve interested in leaning their culture. I saw other aspects of them in me, as I was from childhood. Lo and behold thanking the animal is a part of their ancient beliefs. None of this is to justify my kills.
        At the farm they don’t have me work on slaughter days.

        I am also convinced by the scientific work of Connecticut Naturopathic Scientist, Dr. Peter J. D’Adamo, that Blood Types, O, B and to a lesser degree AB require red meat consumption for optimal health. That need is genetically programmed by ions of human existence.
        I’m Blood Type A; best suited for a vegetarian diet.

    • David says:

      Thanks be for ta poor sheeps…. Did some shearer get laid off ???? hhah On a serious note, I was amazed and appalled by the jokes and songs I heard last year about the at least once common practice of sheep rape in the State of Maine. A radio station staff recorded a CD with many references accompanied by gfaws and chortles.

  62. Patrick says:

    Jack – so what kind of ‘no-win’ situation are you putting me in now? If I ‘answer’ it’s taken as just something more to ‘argue’ with and an example of my ‘defensivenss’ or some other jargon you have picked up in your ‘studies’ your sport as you have admitted is ‘riling’ me up……………….so if I abstain from your ‘lure’ it becomes not answering the question. Somebody must REALLY have done a number on you………….where at over 80 y.o. you get your kicks from ‘provoking’ me……………anyway that said I agree with you here.

    Did you hear that?!?!?! I AGREE with you……………..what will you do to/with that? How can you turn that into an ‘argument’

    But seriously you are correct but you know yourself it is hard to find a ‘total solution’ to things though sorry I forgot you already have that “Abolish Money”

    And please if you can don’t talk about it……………

  63. David says:

    Come on lads, square off now ; enuf of tha truce ‘n’ civility tripe. Fisties up, sarcastic jab, left cross ta tha funny bone… Humour, Humour….

  64. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > it was not clear to me you were not trying to ‘correct’ me and just explaining your personal view.
    > so it felt you were judging me.
    > therefor my question in the end, kind of what makes you so perfect, indeed a defensive reaction of mine.
    > to go from there to call me nasty etc. and specially to say P is correct about me, seems again kind of judgamental, and disregarding all what has been said in the past, just labelling me in some attempt to hurt me.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      P. stands for Patrick……………….Patrick is my name…………….this is not even ‘ignoring’ but some weak semblance of ‘ignoring’…………….please I would like to be called by my name, don’t paint me as some ‘unspeakable’ or ‘pariah’ say my name………….I don’t wish to see/say this again………………..

      • jackwaddington says:

        So!!!!! What’s the feeling?????????


        • David says:

          Do you know this Irish ditty, Patrick; from my old ma:” Patty wrote a letter ta his darlin’ Mollyo
          Sayin, ” If ya don’t receive this
          Write an let me know…”

          • jackwaddington says:

            David: My father had another one:- “Where were you going when I saw you coming back?”

            I didn’t quite ‘get it’ when I was a kid and would retort “when was that daddy?”


          • Patrick says:

            No David I didn’t exactly but I know what you mean. Irish humor can be pretty good. A short one.

            The Irish are planning a manned mission to the heart of the Sun. Somebody says are you mad you will be incinerated before you get there. Answer: We thought of all that we are going at night!

    • David says:

      Only you can decide if it doesn’t fit, Margaret. Generally I ‘m just a from whence it comes guy, nothing personally offends me. In real time, I only care what my kids and grand kids think of me. In real time I am kind, generous, nurturing, non sexist, non judgmental.
      Catch me on one of those other days and I’ll answer your snotty nasties and sarcasm by verbally going all over you, and without filthy language. I don’t know you, your age, if you are fragile, none of those things that would have me temper my debate accordingly.
      My huge issues are with an abusive mother who tried to destroy an angelic, bright, beautiful boy. She failed, “he,”, I, was retrievable. Just so you know.

  65. Margaret says:

    > Sylvia,
    > thanks for your comment.
    > I’m glad Elsie returned, smiley.
    > M

  66. jackwaddington says:

    Your question:- “where at over 80 y.o. you get your kicks from ‘provoking’ me”

    Real easy. I get a great (maybe perverted) kick out of provoking you because I know it gets you all riled up. You loved (seemingly) on entering this blog with a whole host of ‘blowing off’ about me (most of it true) … without let up … until I started to POKE you. Commonly referred to as cause and effect

    Being 82 + y/o is not my favorite age, but so far I seem to be holding out and as yet (contrary to a prior wish of yours) I am not suffering a slow death … yet. It might happen sooner or later. Meantime I/we laugh a lot, specially with my Jimbo. I cry (I suspect) more than most out there, but that is no problem for me. I do get angry and yell about it; especially with all the police shootings and wars. Why, I ask, would anyone ever want to be a police or military person? putting oneself in harms way? Then there are the odd moments of fear and terror (old feelings bubbling up to the surface … mainly at night). Other things are:- I love dancing, singing, walking (not to far; half a mile or so), I love blogging and saying my party piece, I even love organizing things … but in someone else’s space, I have to compromise on that

    However, all this is what I see as LIFE. Hope this answers (to some extent) your question.


    • Patrick says:

      That’s cool………………but you STILL go on an awful lot about something that happened over 3 years ago. Just sayin’ man!

      • jackwaddington says:

        Of course … Primal therapy is about bringing re-memories back into consciousness … never to return to the subconscious; again.

        I also know it irks you to be reminded of your introduction (induction, or what you will) here..

        Unless and until you can either go back to that moment and … in all honesty, state why you REALLY did it. OR, that you begin to see that you are the VERY CAUSE of your own irritations, irk-some-ness, anger … and it is YOU that is going no-where … (my feeling … observing and reading you, of course).


        • David says:

          Sounds like you really care about Patrick.Jack. Can’t imagine hanging on putting myself out there and in for getting heck in return for someone I didn’t care about; and vice versa Patrick. You both could have just said fuck it and moved on. you’re obviously bright evolved men.

          I’ll send you guys the address of my receivables accountant to remit my fees for my miracle savior treatment…. hah !!

          • Patrick says:

            Well if it works maybe you have some ‘miracle treatment’. I am open to miracles……………we all went to Lourdes (in spirit) as children so miracles are possible in my mind. In all seriousness I would like to make peace with Jack and I have ‘learned’ a few things the last few years I give him his props in certain and quite a few matters…………………but if he wants to just demean me and mock me IN PUBLIC that just cannot work.. if he is in any way ‘serious’ so am I. I am anyway………………

            As far as your ‘fee’ you will be paid strictly by ‘results’ unlike Janov who made sure to collect all money up front lol……………we were speculating recently if say primal was to be paid for say over a period of two years quite a few would have been gone by about 6 months………………but Janov was ‘smarter’ than that…………..

            • David says:

              In the culture of my ancient,, ( some 8000 years a distinct nation; – up to the early 1800’s,) culture of my Mi kmaq ancestors, their chief and counsel were paid at the end of each year, if the people agreed they had done a good job.
              Wouldn’t that weed the ass draggers and nutty nuts out of our governments and commerce.

        • Patrick says:

          AT THE TIME YES AT THE TIME…………..Gretchen proposed a ‘joint session’ you wouldn’t you have ‘bragged’ often later why you didn’t, I said I was ‘sorry’ you didn’t do ‘sorry’ you said, I apologized’ I only did it to look good to other said………… are just a full of shit primaller who WANTS to hold onto things forever and ever, you NEED that for some reason. If peace is not being made it is because AT LEAST one party wants ‘war’ (I read recently about the Middle East ‘peace process’ well there is no peace process because Israel NEVER wants peace, I see you in that way) even though you don’t want war you are too much of a faery for that, you want endless sniping and smart alecing. You are a full of shit primaller whose lifestyle is BASED on never ‘forgiving’ it maybe provides some ‘proof’ to you that primal is so valid………………see I can never forget. ………….so it must be true for EVERYONE………… my fucking ‘books’ and see how true it all you are a full of shit primaller…………….the worst kind………………

        • Patrick says:

          OK why did I REALLY do it? How about this I had it up here of your blackmail and threats, your lying and you constant need for ‘help’ and when for a change I needed ‘help’ from you you as usual treated my like an enemy. All of this we could have hashed out and trashed out but you wouldn’t’ you would rather ‘litigate’ it here as you have for over 3 fucking years now and you will go on and do that forever. You don’t WANT peace I don’t know what you want but it seems VERY important to you to keep up major blocks and then yak here about it…………….where it can never be resolved. If you REALLY want to know I am willing to talk to you with or without Gretchen or whomever. Listen good I am willing to talk and try to ‘resolve it but NOT HERE! It CANNOT be ‘resolved’ here you know that is that why you keep ‘proposing’ it??

          I am sorry if I get a bit over heated but I am quite wiling to talk to but again NOT HERE. For your ‘safety’ as I can imagine that might be another fake issue by you Jim can be there, Gretchen, Barry, Janov himself but NOT IN PUBLIC. That should not be too hard to understand………………

          • jackwaddington says:

            Patrick: Your characterization of event is colored with what seems to me ‘a route to make you sound good’ OR … poor victim me, Patrick. I have related this story from my perspective on about three different occasions, only for it to be met by you as “lies, blackmail et al” without you tending your version of the event.

            However I will state it again:- Prior to you asking me, some two to three weeks before your entry onto the blog; things between us were not (as I recall) that bad or terrible. Gentle Giant now in the hands of the new owners that you had given to them, were wanting to renegotiate the deal you had with them (my understanding that they were to pay you in perpetuity $10,000 a month, you offering no particular service).

            You emailed me and asked if I would hand over to you each month the software development that you could then relay back to them. I saw that as you wishing to have leverage with them. I agreed to that with you, on the condition that you asked their permission to allow this detour. The next email from you was such a tirade towards me which I found to be unutterably unreasonable. I answered that email insisting that I needed their permission as I did not want to jeopardize my relationship with then, relative to providing monthly upgrades and getting my fee. Then another tirade ensued from you, bringing in matters that I felt were not relevant to the current wish on your part. I decided there and then I would not answer this second email. Then a third email came from you that was even more vitriolic.

            At that point I decided that any communication with you on this matter was pointless and served nothing for me. Then I got a phone call, and when I realized that it was you I put the phone down. Then another phone call from you and I again put the phone down on you. Then a third one, for which I did the same.

            The next move on your part was to come onto the Primal Blog, knowing that I frequented it, blasting away with all the venom I felt you were able to muster. You did get one “Rah rah” from one blogger but Gretchen came on and suggested to you that she did not like the hateful attempt to willfully hurt another, BUT that they did not bar anyone for commenting on the blog. There were (if my memory serves me correctly) several more rants, tirades and barrages from you until I finally responded that I did not like you anymore and wanted nothing more to do with you … in-spite of what ‘I deemed’ a pathetic and insincere attempt on your part to apologize in, what I considered was to “mend the bridge” I wasn’t having any of it.

            When you then started to attempt to lambaste Primal Therapy; I then stepped in with what I call my “POKES” at you.

            If your version of events are different then just present your case, and yes! in public. Merely suggesting that I am a liar and that you have done so, much to rescue the ‘poor little me’ from starvation and homelessness, doesn’t cut it with me.

            There!!! I stated it again. Now: your turn.


  67. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > are you saying I have spoken to you in snotty nasties and sarcasms?
    > in that case please adress exactly what I have said so I can understand and maybe even say I am sorry, but this feels just like hostility without a clear reason.
    > I am not your mother and I am able to feel hurt.
    > I am not into wisecracks and double messages, prefer openness and vulnerability.
    > I have told you I felt defensive, if you still want to remain hostile well, I am not gonna get into a struggle about it, don’t need to defend myself for no reason really.
    > M

    • David says:

      Read your post to me Margaret. I’m not hostile. It has gone by. I’m just saying if you snipe at me on a day I’m raw I may come back unpleasantly.

  68. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > I have gone back to reread my comment to you that for me seeems to have triggered your reply, and that last sentence you refer to would be my asking you to have a look at yourself and see if everyting there is so perfect.
    > what is so terribly nasty about that? specially since I went to the trouble afterwards of explaining to you I felt you were judging me for wanting to bring home a kitten .
    > and by the way I am 57, you can ask if you like to know.
    > so now I have reread the comment and I still dont see why I am being called nasty, so well, I can only supose it must be in the eye of the beholder..
    > M

  69. Patrick says:

    David’s mention of Mike Lewis……………..anyway I thought I would tell this little ‘story’ (all true)

    I was somewhat of a regular ‘helper’ of his as it was called, my regular ‘driver’ as it was called was D. Anyway D. was a primal guy around for maybe 2 or 3 years and I quite liked him. He was very cool not bossy at all would say to me a lot ‘what do you think’. He was a bit phlegmatic but all in all a good guy and very trust worthy and truthful. I had no problems with him at all and considered him a friend though we did not socialize together.

    Anyway I heard through the grapevine (Mike) that he was not so happy with D. Small things like he doesn’t count the ropes, he didn’t charge for the use of a wardrobe box. I felt the guy was fine and I’m thinking typical of M to nit pick shit like that. Like really ‘micky mouse’ stuff in fact later me and a friend used to just call him “micky mouse’. Micky Mouse Movers we liked the alliteration in that.

    One morning M. tells us (me and D) that he is ‘demoting’ D and ‘promoting’ me to being the ‘driver’. I felt a bit embarrassed like I knew this guy was a very good worker and he did not deserve this. But anyway what could I do?

    I remember sitting in the truck about to take off and I do I don’t feel good about this I really don’t want this and said I would (privately) split the difference in money with him. He was like no that’s cool don’t worry about it and I said well anyway I will. He is starting to eat a carton of yogurt as we are talking.

    Off we go onto the 10 going east, past La Brea going near Crenshaw a sudden traffic ‘pile up’ or at least ‘sudden’ to me maybe not paying so great attention. I slam on the breaks I should mention at this point his ‘rig’ was a pick up truck hauling a ‘horse trailer’ behind (a real professional operation lol) anyway slam on the breaks the pick up takes a violent turn to the left and spins around and ends up facing traffic in the next lane. The horse box has got entangled in the truck but luckily (very luckily) no cars his us from the next lane.

    I calm down……….Phew11………………look over at my new ‘helper’ erstwhile ‘driver’ and the yogurt is splashed all over his shirt. I go “So D what do you think or your new ‘driver’ then?

    This is a totally true story not a word of embellishment……………..I have many many more if anyone cares to hear……………..

    • David says:

      Oh my; I just picked me up off the floor. I thought I’d choke to death laughing. That was the same shit Mike was using when I worked for him. truck and pony rust color carpeted trailer. bring em on.

  70. Patrick says:

    My comment about Led Zeppelin only cooler………………you can see I has set the bar real high but hey John Lennon did it and these guys Led Zeppelin are singing about communication breakdowns and they seem to be in similar territory to me so maybe yeah who knows. Anyway you can see my ‘fantasies’ were VERY big I ‘expected’ a lot which ‘explains’ my deep sense of disappointment when I got here

    (Again Jack NO NEED to ‘defend’ your Faith I am just saying……………..that was me and I suppose embarrassingly so but I want to say it now……………..) I was/am quite ‘shy’ compared to Robert Plant.

    Hey, girl, stop what you’re doin’
    Hey, girl, you’ll drive me to ruin
    I don’t know what it is I like about you, but I like it a lot
    Won’t you let me hold you, now, let me feel your lovin’ touch

    Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
    Havin’ a nervous breakdown, a-drive me insane

    Hey, girl, I got somethin’ I think you oughta know
    Hey, babe, I wanna tell ya that I love you so
    I wanna hold you in my arms, yeah
    I’m never gonna let you go, ’cause I like your charm

    Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
    Havin’ a nervous breakdown, drive me insane, ow, suck

    Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
    Havin’ a nervous breakdown, a-drive me insane, yeah

    Communicate, I want you to love me all night
    I want you to love me all night, I want, hey, I want, yeah

  71. Patrick says:

    I have an English friend who fantasied (as a result of primal) (sic) that he would play center forward for England in the World Cup when he could get time off from jamming with Pink Floyd and Eric Clapton and something else real ‘cool’ too.

    I remember in my mind being a drummer for a ‘super group’ called “The Primal Blues Band” and oh what else…………..I might have to go back to Ireland to ‘save’ the country by becoming the Prime Minister or something. I by some magic would play goal keeper for Holland in the World Cup Ireland hardly ever made it and when they did they were no good. I FELT they were no good and neither was I……………..

  72. Patrick says:

    David – OK last one another Mike Lewis story (all true)

    After out little ‘accident’ it seems I was still ‘promoted’ still ‘driving’ same ‘helper’ he is cool like I said carries no resentments (not ALL primallers are that way) anyway Sunday morning in Orange County, ‘foreign’ territory a bit for us, warm day we show up in horse box and pick up.

    Some problem with tools in like we don’t really have any, need to ask the customer for a wrench to undo the washer/dryer. Tense situation in the house, divorce looks like husband hostile wife friendly (to us). Have to borrow another tool (screwdriver) husband is getting hot under the collar I am never the best at calming a situation but you know not escalating it either.

    For some reason husband looks outside sees our ‘rig’ totally loses it, what the fuck do we think we are playing at. Rampaging around the house picks up a hammer (for us?) situation is getting a bit frightening…………I remember him running through the house like a headless chicken. I say well sir it’s your choice if you do not want us to move you blah blah blah…………….that f…. right I don’t want you to move me. (I think he was also using it to stay with his wife a bit longer) so anyway we had hardly anything on the truck take it back in the house and get the f… out of there

    I am the new ‘driver’ we race up the free way Sunday morning very little traffic flying along like get away from there as fast as possible. People start waving at us…………..I am like eff you leave us alone, it happens again I am still like leave us alone mind your own business…………..after a while D says to me they are STILL waving at us (Who are those guys??)…………and then we see smoke enveloping the truck. D says to me have you released the hand brake…………..oops NO!!

    I look over at him and say “D your new driver is having some problems”

  73. Patrick says:

    Jack – I will answer down here but again I am not really happy about this . This is more ‘public posturing’ the way I see it more just attempting of airing dirty laundry. if I felt you were ‘sincere’ I don’t know why you would object to a ‘meeting’ or a ‘session’ alone or with others you might want so I dunno this feels pointless……………..

    I can say I acted impulsively and without really thinking a lot of things through……………..but you know this about me you have and did know me for a long time. I was in a crisis situation at that time and really I was grasping at straws and recently I have tried to take it step by step through in my own mind……….and I can see your points and why you acted the way you did

    But and you should understand this…………it was literally a FEELING for me, I felt I had been there for you in a helpful way many many times…………….when you were ‘down’ I never turned you away or was deaf to you……………when I was ‘down’ I expected something similar I didn’t feel i was getting it but I accept from your point of view it might look pretty crazy

    You might find this hard to believe Jack but I saw you in many ways as an exemplar of primal unlike me a ‘lapsed’ one………….and again I found this business of just hanging up the phone so opposite of what I thought of primal to be. Now maybe you ‘spoilt’ me in that I always felt I could talk to you and to suddenly be just hung up especially at a very low time in my life…………..well that was hard to take and I remembered you at those earlier times and it’s like now that counts for nothing.

    But again Jack and you should understand this why are we making these kind of ‘factual’ points in public it’s not that I am ‘against’ in public but really do you want to make peace or not. i feel that I do I feel it would be productive to meet in some way. I now live about 6 blocks from you I will probably run into you one of these days…………….i dunno we still ‘litigating’ all this over the internet. I don’t like it it provides way too many loop holes for posturing and lecturing and spinning. I know you love blogging but not everything is some public show. You and I have done way too much of this I find it embarrassing but I suppose this is better than nothing or better than we have been able to do so far. I have ‘admitted’ some things here I can ‘admit’ some more but I dunno in public still does not feel right to me

    • jackwaddington says:

      I do see from this comment that you are making an attempt to, as I phrased it, “mend the bridge”. I am not willing to go there. It seems you are not willing to accept that. One minute you sound like you want something between us … then when it doesn’t happen, you are back to attempting to insult, berate or show that I am the nastiest. That constitutes to me someone that flips from one mode to, what appears to me, the extreme other.

      I don’t like you anymore, and have no desire, even if I see pass on the street to even speak to you. It’s that simple. In the past I worked for you and later with you. That’s now come to an end. It’s for you to now accept that is where I am at with regards to you … the exception being when you start trying to re-organize and berate this therapy and/or Arthur Janov and his work. Since you are on the blog … and no-one is banning you … and I too am on the blog … and so far no-one is banning me; I will respond with what I call my “pokes” anytime you attempt to misrepresent this therapy, the theory supporting it, or Arthur Janov (not as a personality, but his work).

      Others characterize it/us as the “Jack and Pony show” I accept their characterization.


      • Patrick says:

        I was going to say ‘I’m not surprised’ but actually I am. I always feel peace is possible, past hurts can be ‘forgiven’ and ‘understood’. To me there is deep truth and value in that. But well thanks for just telling me straight, part of this was for me too…………..I sometimes think ‘what if you die’ and then it is too late for real for ever. Now at least I won’t beat myself up so much if it happens at least I feel I made a serious attempt at peace and understanding.

        You did help me a lot Jack in quite different ways but we are very different as people your strengths tend to be my weakness and vica versa I would say But as a team we did I believe create great software though you get full credit for the actual programming. But I think you would agree it took the two of us. The tragedy and I had a big part in this is not just accepting it takes two……………….I could never do it all by myself even if I tried I could not. And so it is in many walks of life takes me a long to realize that.

        I probably the way it looks be back in Ireland in about 18 months for good I would say. So if you die I will probably be far away but I am glad even if maybe only for myself to have tried to reach out . I hope and believe I will have a clearer conscience about all that happened so in that way I am being ‘selfish’ too.

        I am guessing you do this partly on ‘advice’ well that’s your business but my opinion for what it’s worth (nothing) is that ‘advice’ does not really serve you well. It is the same ‘advice’ responsible for the wrecking of your micro-biome and your dependence on drugs that have a large factor in making you the ‘dried prune’ you have become. So in a way I don’t take it so personal I know it has a lot to do with your ‘medicated’ status and your inability to look outside primal and get a bigger picture of what has happened to you. Instead you have become ‘fanatical’ about your ‘beliefs’ and you will spiral down the hole you have chosen……………..oh well it’s a bad habit of mine to try to ‘save’ people you have rejected that strongly. We will both have to live (and die) with it.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Just one simple response: I took no-ones advice about the whole matter. I went with my own gut feeling. If anything I was advised to the contrary.


  74. Patrick says:

    I did not write these words Van Morrison did but it has a feeling of death or someone about to die, honestly I think that’s why now I reached out to Jack (and thanks to David’s good influence too) but I have a feeling death is near. Could be wrong and hope I am. Maybe it’s my death who knows it feels very bad karmas to me to walk on the other side of the street but just my feelings/beliefs each person goes their own way (to death)

    Slim slow slider
    Horse you ride
    Is white as snow
    Slim slow slider
    Horse you ride
    Is white as snow
    Tell it everywhere you go
    Saw you walking
    Down by the Ladbroke Grove this morning
    Saw you walking
    Down by the Ladbroke Grove this morning
    Catching pebbles for some sandy beach
    You’re out of reach
    Saw you early this morning
    With your brand new boy and your Cadillac
    Saw you early this morning
    With your brand new boy and your Cadillac
    You’re gone for something
    And I know you won’t be back
    I know you’re dying, baby
    And I know you know it, too
    I know you’re dying
    And I know you know it, too
    Every time I see you
    I just don’t know what to do

  75. Patrick says:

    How about those Lakers or Dodgers? What time of the year is it?

    • David says:

      Shit !! B B King is dead. I read he was unwell and then perked up again. I never met him; went to a few shows. But in 1979 I signed with RCA Records Publishing arm, DUNBAR. and also got a contract to polish other writers work, $ 200,00 a pop. .Jack Feeney their A&R man phoned me one day. He’d been courting me hard. I was so important, so gifted. Mr Hardy, he says, I’ve got a music legend here,trying to sign him; he listened to your track and the two tunes you collaborated on and he wants to talk with you. Mr. Hardy says this kind sounding voice, It’s BB King. Son, you’ve got the gift and now you’ve got a fine record company behind you. All I could manage was, “” ththththanks…”He took my number and address and his publicist actually sent me some,” Requested Material,” envelopes, to send him tunes I wrote. BB never signed with RCA, he went with Mercury records. A year later I sided with another writer RCA had screwed and I was no longer Canada’s most important new song writer. Makes a good story now to laugh on…

  76. Patrick says:

    David – to lighten the mood a bit more…………….I don’t really have so many great M. L. stories but I thought to mention this.

    We had a crazy long day of moving for him, D. the same guy who was later ‘demoted’ was now the ‘driver’ and I was the ‘helper’ This was a BAD day the ‘low light’ of which was the customer’s mattress blow off on the Freeway and if my memory serves me well (not really sure of this but I think so) we went back around on the freeway and retrieved the (damaged) mattress. Yes I am pretty sure we did as I remember the customer complaining about the damaged bed (or was it the total disappearance of the bed – maybe that was it. Anyway I also remember having to make 2 trips so maybe we SAW the mattress on the freeway on our second trip

    Anyway long story short – we are arriving back to the ‘office’ definitely that in quotes and we pass a U-Haul. It is around midnight and I have that tiredness that was in a way nice all tension drained out of my body almost is a surrealistic kind of state calm and strangely alert too……………anyway the sign at U-Haul is advertising their services with a slogan “An Adventure in Moving”

    I looked at D and we both broke out laughing………………like why would they advertize THAT we just HAD one of those…………’s nothing to be proud of and nothing to desire yet here you have a nationwide company advertising that and trying to induce their customers to partake. We both concluded it’s like they are on drugs or something or WE are on drugs…………….the drug of outrageous adventure, the adrenaline of danger and just the sheer absurdity of it all.

    And I thought probably tomorrow D will get in trouble for having lost one rope or something…………..

  77. Patrick says:

    I have a few more ‘stories’ but like a proper series maybe I release them like once a week or something…………….don’t want to overload people here……………..

    • David says:

      Oh boy just like waiting for Western Theatre….thank you Patrick. From now on I’m going to take my lap top to the floor to partake in your version of Monty Python….

    • David says:

      Has everyone gone on furlough in primal land ?? One day silent figured all off to church; 2 days…..
      Feeling abandoned; again
      My earliest writing, 8 or so by my spelling tells of, ” hate the rain, because I’m stuck in a house where no one wants me.” Later I would often just write, ” Here comes the rain again,” when I sensed a new friendship/relationship was fading. Struggle a little. Time to go away..I’ll die and then they’ll be sorry they didn’t love me.”

      Those 5 words still can twist my face into a mask of agony Like now; Is that feeling or acting out ?? Just a neurotic way to keep the feeling of not being loved ?

      • Phil says:

        Hi David, I was also wondering where everyone went. As a kid I almost always preferred leaving my house and going off with friends. Home was not a happy place. It’s a sunny day here last time I looked. No window in the room where I work. Phil

      • jackwaddington says:

        I think it got shut down for some repair work? Oh! maybe everyone decided to sleep in … but then I wouldn’t really know anyway. No accounting for what Primal people are up to.


        • David says:

          Plotting, my lovely, Plooootting…. hee hee

        • David says:

          OK proof primal works. I’m finally able to take ownership. It wuz me who broke it Jack. There , I feel better now.

          • jackwaddington says:

            David: I sort of knew you were up to something, being down under there. What’s it like living upside down ????

            • David says:

              I’m in Nova Scotia, Canada, Jack, not Aussietralia; we’re just backward not upside doon….

              • jackwaddington says:

                David: does that mean you walk backwards … in that can of ada. That’s almost as bad as walking upside-down. Yeah !!!


                • David says:

                  Ya breaks me up , sir !!!! I recall when 1st in LA sorting out all of our come from away accents, making the near fatal accident of asking a Melbourne woman from what part of England did she hail…. Had an Australian take exception, at the bloody gas pumps, when, after telling me he was visiting from Adelaide, I asked about a newsworthy event in New Zealand.. He exploded, ” My god man, I’m from Australia, that’s a whole different country… blah, blah, blah. ” I said yes I knew that my son in law hailed from Angaston, on his doorstep, but I thought being geographically loser his take on the situation might be more accurate. He choked on his humble pie or a bumble bee or something, muttered something barely audible and stormed off. It struck me funny, as eruditeness often does, and I was leaning against the pump for support laughing my arse off.

                  • jackwaddington says:

                    David: “Laughing your arse off” Did you stick it back on again after filling the tank. You’d look real funny if you’d left it at the petrol station Geese, you Aussies, specially after leaving the place, talk real funny.

                    Yeah yeah! I know we Brits have a habit of talking with that hot tater in the mush, but you guys leave me wonderin if we did the wrong thing when we sent all those convicts to Aussieland and gave them rabbits to take with um.

                    Is aw this stuff therapy ????????????????


      • sylvia says:

        Just wanted to say really liked Letterman’s last show. It was a program that my mom and I always agreed on; that we liked Dave Letterman and his humor. It was good to see him with his friends and the appreciation they had for each other. In the look-back his little interviews with children was touching–you could tell he understood them. Will miss seeing him and his truth- baring wit. Never will forget him saying to one of his guests when they were going on and on about something; “Cut the crap.” Great guy.

        • David says:

          I fell asleep. I have not done a lot of Late Night Shows viewing, Letterman , et al, are past midnight airing here. I kept thinking , I must be missing the, how funny he is aspect of his public character. Colbert and Stewart slay me; but then I thrive on big shots getting it stuck to them and Republican politicians having their genetic code put on display. It’s the only one bar genetic code I have ever seen. Chimps have more bars.

        • David says:

          Drove by a shop today that primarily sells clothing and hardware. A Large Lettered handposted sign read, ” Just Received New Supply of Letterman’s Better Beef.” On my return trip it was altered, reading ” SORRY, I meant to write, ” LEADBETTERS BEEEFF,” cracked me up…

  78. Larry says:

    This evening I was with some friends at a fund raising dinner for Nepal. The venue was a big church auditorium. There were maybe 300 people present, a lot of whom were East Indian, Pakistani, and Nepalese. Prior to the official ceremonies, an East Indian lady was up on the stage playing a sitar, and an East Indian man was playing taballa drums, creating an exotic, inviting, interesting atmosphere.

    The ceremonies opened with a fellow on stage talking about the earthquake disaster, while images of the people in Nepal and the devastation were projected onto the main stage screen. The effect was to bring home to me that the earthquake was not just an item on the news, but a real natural disaster hurting real people right now, and that it could have been me instead of them that it happened to.

    The master of ceremony said a long prayer before the meal, expressing mystification as to how God could let the disaster happen to His children, but then asking that good work be done in His name to reveal His true glory. Next an East Indian lady sang a beautiful rendition of the Lord’s prayer. For a few moments I was caught up in how comforting it would feel to believe in a greater power who looked out for us, cared for us and loved us, whose existence would help me believe in goodness and help give me strength and feel good to do good and right for others. That faith and belief is so alluring in contrast to reality as I see it, namely that there is no greater power looking out for us, that the earthquake was caused by recurring periodic natural movement in the earths crust that happen irrespective of our wishes, and that we are fragile, vulnerable bags of jelly in an infinite universe of powerful physical forces indifferent to our existence.

    Instead of comforting faith and belief in a benign, nurturing greater power, it is so much more stark and empty to see the reality that there is no greater power out there caring and looking out for me, that I’m on my own in a universe that is stark, cold, empty, and can be dangerous. Sounds like a feeling coming up. Emptiness and aloneness is eating away at me, sapping the life out of me. I expect soon it will feel so all encompassing and debilitating that I will succumb to it.

    • Larry says:

      Also makes me feel this therapy will never go mainstream. Who would ever want to face the emptiness of reality coalescing upon them! It’s going to drive me to a breakdown ( a primal).

  79. David says:

    When I was 10 I went to what had been my beautiful grandfather’s room, turned into a store room. Our defunct TV was there.I know now all it needed was a Vertical Hold vacuum tube. Anyhow, winter, grandfather dead, father out on the land on the trap line, no escape now from mother’s abuse. I had a chat with god. I’d asked him before to stop the abuse of my family pointing out that I was a very good boy. Guess he was too busy trimming his nails or beard. Anyhow….Told him if he fixed the TV I’d believe in him and for the rest of my life I’d tell everyone he’d fixed my TV and helped me in that way. Well I guess he never went to tech school either and sure as hell was a non communicator. Shortly after that day I went to secluded outside place to have it out. I knew he didn’t give a shit. Now I was going to test his all powerful shtick. ” Pee,” I said; we were only allowed to say,”wet,” for the need to urinate. “Poop,” I said; we were only permitted to say,”dirty, ” pronounced, ” dirdy.” Summing up courage and cringing, I said,” SHIT,” no bolt of lightening. Hell he couldn’t have hurt me if he did exist unless he’d made me swallow a line of fish hooks and then ripped them out of my gut and back up my esophagus.
    I followed up with, “damn, god damn, and jesus christ.” I knew then I’d been sold a load of shit.
    And I had no word for it then but on the spot. I became a non theist. Kind of like a drunk forced sober by circumstances; ie: can’t get any booze; He doesn’t have to belong to any mystical group or attend meetings.
    I forayed back to church, I was janitor of all our community churches from age 14 – 19. I got my meals , gratis, at home after age 11; the rest I earned. I got outed as having a good voice and ended up in the choirs as a soloist; voice trained by a retired New York Metropolitan Opera Company, voice coach and former Primary Mezzo Soprano. More important I had access to ,”borrow,” two mikes for my rock band. Odd, at 14 I looked 20 and at 50 I looked 30. I also free lanced as lead guitarist with adult pop bands. On Saturday night I sat on stage with the , ” Harbour Lights,” , small, ” Big Band,”,dance band wearing my father’s fedora, and sporting an eye pencil mustache watching the good hell fire and brim stone Baptists get pissed and then several mixed marriaged , ( not married to each other,) partnerships would stroll outside, returning one good screw time later. Sunday morning I sat beside the minister in the soloists chair and grinned down at the same hypocrites and took great glee in watching them squirm. My 15 year old drummer took up educational relationships with some of those Baptist moms. He was Anglican and someone had told him to ,”… never shit in your own bed,” which I remember him telling me with an air of a man of the world sophistication. They also gave him, at his request,spending money and pints of Vodka, the booze of choice of the Fundamentalists.

    I was even the lay preacher at the United Church. I never, “Believed,” ever again, though. The free voice training and the accolades were the only draw. Neither did the minister believe in all that crap, I later learned as an adult. A 6’6″ Armenian, impressive figure of a man, a fine caring humanist and a wonderful dad to his 3 kids. His sermons dealt with those human traits not ghosts, sins, and miracles.
    I sat with my little girl for two days after her surgery, leaving her side only a couple of times to the rest room. I had a chat with my grandfather. Told hmi I didn’t believe in his god. But if I was wrong would he have chat with his god and ask him to spare Rachael’s life. I told him if he was right, believing, then it would be blasphemous for me to ask, and any way the bible says it’s a real biggy to try to bargain with their god. What horse shit eh.
    Like electric gadgets, good thing religion has an off switch. Can’t believe many modern brains actually believes such nonsense.

  80. David says:

    … TRIBUTE IN BLUES, Mr Riley B ( Blues Boy / BB) King
    David Hardy 15/05/2015

    BB’s gone
    Packed up Lucille an’ slipped away
    Yea ea ah
    BB’s gone
    Packed up Lucille an’ gone away
    You know a cold, cold feelin’
    Settled in some hearts today

    Can’t say for sure
    When I first heard him
    Was I, 8 or was I, 9
    Can’t say for sure
    When I first heard him
    Was I, 8 or maybe 9
    I think the song he was singin
    Was Trouble in Mind

    The notes from those magic fingers
    They reached way down inside of me
    yea ea ea ah
    Those tremblin’ wails they triggered
    Somethin’ , somethin way down deep inside of me
    I think it was my true self
    Tryin’ to get free

    No new licks will be comin’
    From the master’s hands
    No oh oh oh
    No new riffs will be comin’
    From those master hands
    But his gift will keep on giftin’
    He left his master class plan

    • Phil says:

      David, I took my son to see B.B. King last Oct. It seemed like a goodbye tour, he spent a lot of time talking and interacting with the audience but we enjoyed the show. Phil

  81. Patrick says:

    David – did you write that? about BB KIng, Anyway I like it. Nice.

    I am trying to grasp something at the edge of my consciousness here……………..but you mentioned doing moving and even my name………………I’m thinking but can’t quite recall a “David Hardy” who might have worked ‘for’ me if that is not too pretentious to say. It’s like one of those things/names I can BARELY recall but somehow I think I can but not completely sure. Also I can’t put any kind of ‘face’ to the name just the name seems to ring some bell.

    About those moving stories about the only thing I learned from most of those movers was what NOT to do…………… in that way it was a kind of ‘training’ training in what not to do…………..but still a kind of learning I suppose……………

    • David says:

      Yep, PATRICK, I wrote the BB Tribute tune yesterday AM. You can sing it to the melody of Cold Cold Feeling, the same perfect melody to a couple million other blues songs. hah !!
      I was sitting with a blues musician buddy when he was dying from spinal cancer; when he grins over at me and says ,Dave, you know the secret to writing a really, really great blues song ? I just listened. ” Well I woke up this mornin’,” he sings full growlin’ volume, head arched back and we both nearly choked to death laughing.
      Yep, I worked for an Irish Patrick on at least one job. Tom Foley recommended me. ???? We dismantled a TV Commercial Studio/warehouse; a repossession by Bank of America, I recall ?? It was a shell company in the name of the daughter, but owned by her father, a guy who was convicted of selling defective airplane parts to the military. Parts that had failed commercial airline x ray scans and sold for scrap., That Patrick with permission of the suit overseeing the job for the bank gave me a pair of Bauer Professional Hockey Skates and the sweaters and shorts worn by the NHL players who has shot an anti drug commercial at that facility. One Minnesota North Stars outfit had Bobby Smith’s name on the back.
      I worked for Frank Mulhare pretty steady until I came back home for christmas. I got bumped by immigration on my first attempted return. They told me to never try to get back into the USA or I would go to prison, because they had information I had been working, rucking, in LA illegally. ( My ex, I guess.. The low life she’d been fucking dumped just before I got home in December. She also wrote the Institute and tried to get me kicked out. Said I had been disclosing confidential inf’n about fellow patients. Stupid me I saw a letter in our joint mail box addressed to her from the Institute and thought my big surprise was she had applied for treatment. I was so happy for her, and so proud of her courage.)They were a tough crowd, immigration. i had all kinds of documentation from my office and a certified cashier’s cheque for 5 grand, US funds. I stupidly had bought a return ticket through a friend working at LIU Airlines, Frank Doggett, originally from Maine. I had to return to Nova Scotia; cooked up a cover story with a friend in Boston , ” to visit.” to see some Bruins games and meandered across the USA back to LA. When I returned to LA I was sick with the flu for like 2 weeks. I had taken the funds back with me because I was determined I wasn’t going to work for Elephant Move any more on my down time between jobs with Frank. They weren’t really very respectful of their workers. I called Frank to let him know I was back and he dumped me, I guess because he would never speak to me again. I was heart broken. I thought we were friends. I did good work for him. Saved his ass once on a job with an other driver who crapped out under stress from the customer’s neighbors. Not a very adult way to behave. When I decide to be someone’s friend I jump in right to the family acceptance level.
      I sent him a Facebook friend request and a, .” can’t we talk about this, 30 years later ?” but no answer. I read that he’s office manager for a moving company. I think he secured green card amnesty. I guess that still hurts because I’m crying now. I keep getting thrown away by people I’ve been good to and did nothing wrong to deserve it. That began at birth Patrick.
      Fucking red ant in white ant hills.,
      Come to think of it when, ” Patrick,” called me to offer me work, I think maybe it was Frank who referred me, huh…
      I ended uo going back to Elephant move and worked well with their most notorious driver, John Rice. The strikers rolled their eyes and told me what a prick he was, he’d can me if I talked to him or didn’t fold the robes a particular way and suspend them just off the floor with ropes; and the ropes had to be done a certain way. Well Frank had taught me well. I didn’t say a word to John Rice; I just nodded every morning and immediately broke eye contact. After the third day. He said , ” You probably think I’m a prick for not talking. I’m scared to death I’ll get lost if I don’t pay absolute attention until 10 AM That’s when elementary school still goes in my mind. I’m in class then and I’m safe.” In time he chose to share his story. A lovely, kind, funny generous, guy; who introduced me to killer Falafels at the World’s Best Falafel House, hole in tha wall, in Santa Monica,on Pico. John was ex aeronautics engineer, who had to leave the profession because ya can’t not talk to your co geniuses until after 10 AM.
      He built model planes and took me along to the modlers air field.

      • David says:

        And oh, per the Hardy curse, Patrick, you asked him if you could give me a pro MacGregor baseball ourfielder’s mitt. I still use it. Well shit…

  82. Patrick says:

    Wow………..some of those names are really ringing bells with me. I think I even remember the job you are talking about the Bank etc. I was not there myself but yeah it was like a liquidation bankruptcy kind of thing and was paid for by the Bank. That was in the real early days early 1987 I am saying. So yes I think I saw your ‘name’ but I don’t think I actually met you.

    I know Frank Mulhare very well was a roommate with him on Brooks Ave, he is Irish also.I don’t want to say too much more…………..he might be reading lol.I met all those guys you mention John Rice yes worked with him and even Frank Doggett I remember he ran some kind of travel agency thing was not a mover.

    About being thrown away by people who you thought you were close to……………….don’t get me started. I have a notion about that which I have mentioned here before…………..I think ‘primal people’ are MORE apt to do it than the so called ‘repressed’ majority. They have all the tools and the trauma bond (their own) is in place and all the ‘explanations’ are at the ready (they don’t struggle etc)……………well you saw it here yesterday or at least I did. An old story of ‘religious’ folk who think they are so different in fact usually the same as the old only worse in many ways……………

    People find ways of ‘balancing’ themselves out so if they have a THEORY of ‘expressing feelings’ they are LESS likely to actually really be that way. In my experience………………..

    • jackwaddington says:

      Wow: How you get your brain all in a twist; Quote:- “People find ways of ‘balancing’ themselves out so if they have a THEORY of ‘expressing feelings’ they are LESS likely to actually really be that way. In my experience………………..” I take it you are talking about Patrick Griffin having a THEORY about expressing feelings????

      People that EXPRESS their feeling don’t have and have, nor need a theory about it. The only theory relevant and talked about here is Primal Theory. Should your brain not run to it. Having a theory about NEUROPHYSIOLOGY is not the same as having a theory about “expressing feelings” That’s a verb …, an action … something one does. Like walking. You don’t have to have a theory about walking to walk. Duh!!

      It is my experience from reading you on this blog that the one person seemingly NOT ABLE to express his feeling; is none other than Patrick Griffin.


      • David says:

        Ah Jack, so warm and fuzzy. I mean that with all respectful humor, Jack. I never deal out sarcasm.I really have become fond of you and Patrick.

      • Patrick says:

        No I was specifically thinking of you when I said that. I believe it to be very true in your case.

        Even yesterday I wanted to move towards peace and fixing things…………… seem to prefer war and broken things

        Each to his own………….I just wish you would ‘ignore’ me you have made it clear you want to ‘resolve’ nothing so just leave me be then

        Wait now for another ‘attack’………………..

        • jackwaddington says:

          “No I was specifically thinking of you when I said that. I believe it to be very true in your case.” So !!! why didn’t you say so directly or indirectly???
          “Even yesterday I wanted to move towards peace and fixing things…” If you knew how to create peace it would be easy … seemingly you don’t
          “I just wish you would ‘ignore’ me ” No such luck … I just love poking you .. sort of like you seemingly love all the vitriol towards me. It’s a ‘Jack and Pony’ show .. remember?
          “Wait now for another ‘attack’………………..”


    • David says:

      Huh, I really thought you were there Patrick at the beginning and the end of the job after we’d torn the thing apart and packed it up for the repossessor to move it into quarantine. I became brazen asking for stuff and asked, I thought ,you, to ask the bank rep who watched the work lime a hawk if I could have that stuff. It blew Frank away that I would ask customers for stuff they were trashing. I got 2 gross of custom made shirts from Cosmetics mogul David Evans who we moved to Lost Hills, Vegas
      I never had to launder a shirt the rest of the time I was there. I merely ripped the sleeves and the collars off. from Oscar Cosmetics supplier David Evans who we moved to Lost Hills Nevada. Fuck that was a trip. We had two trucks. We stopped at a truck stop for grub that was straight out of , Deliverance.” WE fucking escaped from there !!! David Evans’ partner, George, took a shine to Frank. They invited us to stay over with them. We declined. Shit it was a scene. We never got a fucking penny in tip from them. We went into Caesars Palace at 2 AM or so because Frank needed to use the Bank Machine..Filthy from a two truck load in the Valley. Wearing shorts and Frank in a sports coat that was a copy of, “Joseph’s Coat of Many Colors.
      ” Fuck ….
      Shit., my ” archives” still work well. On the way back we had to make a delivery to David’s daughter in Lake Echo, Nev; . I totally freaked out scaling that fucking mountain, road, bolted onto the face of the mountain like LEGO; a zillion bloody feet above sea level. I had to leave my truck part way up.
      We transferred my stuff to Frank’s truck. I was ok driving back down in daylight. It was the morning after Hallowe’en. I saw the worst thing I’d ever seen. the remains, a torso in a white blood soaked t -shirt. I stopped, spell bound. .A trucker stopped and told me to get out of there or I’d end up charged for it. Someone waited for that person, forever.

      I can half picture you. Dark hair, pretty capably built guy, maybe barrel chested ??

      Yeah, I met you at your place on Brooks, Venice. I was there twice, once answering a co-renter wanted advert and once when Frank was moving a family out of Venice who objected to drug soldiers shooting up their windows. It was a three man job, the third , I think Peter Crummy, so the truck box was never left unattended. hah/

      I’m Canadian, 5′ 11″, had dark blond thick longish hair until Francis/Frank convinced me short hair would be more appropriate for a man my age, 39 yrs then. Always grinnin’, unless crying… I arrived in LA, August 86, 238 lb obese; left 190 lb, 44″ chest and 32″ waist. I’m Canadian, we apologize when someone steps on our fingers or toes ..Can’t miss us. We’re notoriously polite.. ha My Irish maternal grandfather was not known for being too nice; peaceable but…. He was among the Irish
      child refugees to North America in 1865.. Raised by a German Family. I don’t even know what his Irish birth name was. My Canadian born Irish/ Dutch uncles sounded like they’d just gotten off the boat from Ireland, their brogue was so thick.

      When I arrived in LA in Aug 86 you guys were advertising for a roommate, on Brooks; interviewing candidates. I thought that odd. Back home we’d just say, ” come on in.” And then suffer in silence if it was a disaster.

      Buddy who owned the company being liquidated was convicted of fraud, human endangerment, and being a heinous human, , and lost everything on his way to prison. It was a major news story.

      I wish I could have worked it out with Frank. I really like the guy. SWe had a bunch of laughs and worked well together. He was going to take me flying with him after the December break. I drew a caricatured business card for him, depicting him navigating the moving truck. He looks a bit like Richard Dreyfuss so it was easy to draw.

      I’ll tell you my plumber’s helper job some time; it’s a good laugh.

      • Patrick says:

        David – yes ‘you’ are coming back to me, but I am not the most observant person. i am pretty sure I did meet you but I cannot recall any specifics. Anyway it’s not important but sometimes I like to ‘push’ my memory as some kind of exercise. But now that you mention it I do remember Frank was the driver on that bankruptcy job but I was back in the ‘office’ (in quotes again)

        It’s interesting kind of going over some of this kind of stuff it actually stirs up feelings……………..I have a lot to look back on and a lot to regret

        • David says:

          No Frank wasn’t on that job. You are correct it, was early 8; I left April/May to return after receiving word my wife got pregnant, had an ectopic pregnancy and abandoned our children.

          Frank never spoke to me after Dec 86. Never saw him again.

          Watching , ” Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.” A friend recommended it,. She said the girl really fucks up a perverted probation worker. There’s a scene where the heroine sutured the Daniel Craig character’s facial injury with a sewing needle. Bang I was briefly jetted back to age 6. We were in the bush for the summer. I hung a barking knife on a limb and it fell and landed razor sharp blade on the web of my right thumb. My thumb just dropped as the tendons were cut. I could see all the white connective tissue. My father reattached the tendons and sutured the cut using catgut fishing line and a small trout hook with the barb snipped off. I don’t know if he used the words or if it was in his touch but he told me I was stupid. The feelings rushed up just now, I asked him why he thinks I’m stupid; that it hurt me and that I’m not stupid. Then I asked why he hates me and the feelings disappeared and I couldn’t bring them back,. huh….Along with the emotion was a violent pain behind my knees, uppermost calf. I have always had the exact same sympathetic pain seeing or sometimes just hearing the account of someone’s painful injury.

          That’s the first primal scene ever to appear like that. For me it’s always just been feelings, except for the rape scene as an infant – early toddler.I’m face down. Can’t see the family member who did that. Don’t know what I’d ever do if I discovered it was my wonderful grampy.

          • Larry says:

            What a horrific way to treat a child!

            • David says:

              What aspect IS,” HORRIFIC,” , to you, Larry. The , ” back country surgery,” was not a problem for me. It was the only choice.It was brilliant. He was brilliant, superiorly competent in dozens of skills and talents, ecologist, writing, poet, woodsman, canoe builder, church steeple painter, worked without safety harness of course; canoeist, hunter, fearless wild animal rescuer, trapper, shooter, a true STRONGMAN, but 5’5″ maybe; a trick sharpshooter, professional sportsman competitor, internationally sought out sports guide, hair stylist/barber, clock and watch maker, jeweller, electronics tech, totally and perfectly ambidextrous, perfect body strength, dexterity and reflexes, peri- sidedness , the balance and stealth of a cat, He could still do one arm chin ups and execute a clean , ” skin the cat,” gymnist movement when he was 88 years; a fine cabinet builder, tailor, dress maker, custom knotted button holer, hat maker, logger, chef, pastry chef, painter, multi instrumental musician, domestic and wild animals and birds flocked to him like he was family., devoutly religious , an ordained Christian Adventist Cleric,but not a proselytiser; never a braggart.
              I adored him, I was terrified of him, that look. I dreamed of him always the same, killing me with an axe.
              He was loving to me as a baby. Held me, rocked me, looked into my eyes.. Wanted to be there for me when I was sick and injured. It ended by age 5 and he hated me, what I was; wished I wasn’t his son.
              Christmas 86, I came home from LA.. He told me he loved me. I’ve always been huggy, cuddly guy, always told him I loved him. He said it and I thought I was going to freeze to death. I never ever told him I loved him again. I nursed him uninterrupted the month of his dying. He talked incessantly about my perfect brother. I knew he’d been kind to me when I was a helpless baby.I wanted to give him the same genuine loving unconditional escort from this life. He died holding my hand as we ,”paddled across the lake to, the cove.” ” It was you I always took there, Donald ” were his final words. I squeezed his hand. My perfect brother was in the hall trying to seduce the nurses. He came in when I succeeded getting his attention, to beatifically pronounce ( he’s a High Anglican deacon), ” Look he’s in the arms of Jesus now,” an arm around the waist of each nurse who flanked him. I was invisible.
              Oh, in case anyone wonders, I have had feelings about those events.

              I realize I’m just saying what you all know, but; when a significant other dies that ends the possiblity of continuing the struggle, and any possible resolution. I hope I don’t leave anyone I love with that rest of life sentence.

              ” Each of us has friends, and we love them,
              So before life’s story ends, why don’t we tell them so?
              All the feelings we had stolen, when we were young
              Is this as far as we can come ?

              See, the people, falling to the ground
              Looking like their hearts will break with pain
              Like the story in the poets’ songs
              Hope I’m never called on to explain

              Why we hide or hopes so well
              That no one can tell, we ever had a dream
              All those feelings that we forced down
              When we were young
              Is this as far as we’ve come

              All the pain that has chained us
              Since we were young
              Why do we leave those chains undone

              • Larry says:

                Are you kidding! Being hated and told you are stupid by your father when you are 6. Being raped as an infant. I’m wondering why you even ask.

                • David says:

                  Oh, no sarcasm intended, Larry; I’m big on clarification. I thought maybe it was the hill billy surgical feat. Thank you. Yeah life with the Hardy’s was not as much good luck as relatives often told me.
                  If you happen to read my epistle which mentions my perfect brother; he further endeared himself to me by fucking my first wife X times and attempted with my 2nd. He died a few years ago. He’d fucked most of the women at his funeral, grandmothers, mothers, their daughters and grand daughters. They were all sitting with his wife and daughters, all weeping uncontrollably. He was a full fledged deacon at his Anglican Church. He always had an angle how establishing friendships would benefit him. He got two free homes built for him, on and on. He gave new meaning to the saying, ” Luckier than a shithouse rat.”
                  I had to fight to maintain my composure at his funeral as looking at all of those people started a review of the tragic comedy to play in my mind. When he finally confessed to me by phone, 2 am, under the courage of a 24 beer, he said he figured he’d,” made me feel better because he certainly did.” His greater mission was to bring me back to god. I think I may have mentioned both fucking and god in my immediate response. I think he had passed out because my line went out of service and he didn’t speak any more.
                  On the other side, years now, of feeling about that little disclosure, I am laughing. Because in the eyes of all those who “, DIDN’t ” know that God fearing Jesus loving man best,” he’s a fucking saint. I could probably get an audience with Francis by just dropping his name.

                  • Larry says:

                    I’ve never met you, but given what you’ve written here about your family and your growing up, it’s amazing you are as sane as you come across to me to be, if kind of quirky. You must have incredible survival instincts and a good soul.

                    • David says:

                      My sustaining defense was to love everybody. I met a healthy mentor early in my 20’s who introduced me to Primal. But we weren’t really pals. I am absolutely sane. I trust too easily; getting better at that. I have never had a friend who didn’t betray me. I’d like to have that. Someone who would have my back. Someone who respects my opinion as much as I do them. I hope to meet a woman to fall in love with again. I love being in love and I’m really good at being a partner. Unfortunately I have always awakened closed down women who then go on like 19 year olds having discovered the best candy in the world. Wonder how a person can look across a room and spot an extrovert who is actually emotionally unavailable.

                      I was very sick with a nasty virus and dealing with a spinal injury, December and January. My, ” best,” friend knew I was in pain and couldn’t even walk some days. I can see his house from mine. Friends and former band mates for 40 years. I saved his life twice. He lived at my house for a year while recovering from homelessness and addictions.
                      I never heard from him until February when he was climbing the walls from dealing with his new wife and he needed a pack of cigarettes. I crawled to my car got his cigarettes, delivered them and he said thanks and that he needed to go for a nap. You cannot touch narcissists only admire them. I know what the score is. I make a conscious decision to take left overs. That’s all I got as a kid,
                      I have feelings about that, Larry, hurt, anger, sadness from the hopelessness; cry my heart out. But it doesn’t alter the reality of surviving in the real world.But in LA, I didn’t have any friends either; just people that simulated friendship as long as I propped them up. I had a woman who one time took me camping with her to Oxnard, as I found out because she didn’t want to go alone. She did come around to say goodbye when I left to come home.

                      Yesterday my friend was at work and got called to do a gig after work. His wife wouldn’t let him use her car to drive home to get his gear. She’s a control freak. So he phoned and I dropped off one of my guitars, amp, pedal board and stuff. Ended up he didn’t play so he had me drive him home. By then it was 7 pm. He said he was going to have a nap. So I came home. But he was really going out with his wife and her cool friends, who still have the emotional maturity of 14 year olds but make huge money. And she can struggle with their alcoholic personalities that mimic her father’s.
                      I should tell him to fuck off, but there are 8000 people in our 4000 square mile county; someone to occasionally talk to beats nobody.
                      Guess that makes me sound pretty pathetic.
                      I’ve rambled on enough. Turn me on and I don’t know when to stop. Oh it was at sweat lodge 2008, someone told their sad story, and remarked that their experience was beyond the understanding of my perfect life and my permasmile.. So I shared a little. That person has never made eye contact with me since. Fucked up his image of me. I’m not supposed to be human.
                      |I’m tired of that, too.
                      gudnite, Larry, wherever ya are. Thank you for caring.

    • David says:

      I was traumatized when I first starting hanging with professional musicians. A song writer and an absolute sook, I wrongly assumed that these giants of song who wrote those feeling drenched ditties were my kind of people. Most were completely devoid of feeling and absolute women using / abusing, people using pricks. They may have had feelings when they wrote and first performed their songs. By the time I played with them they were juke boxes, put some dope in get a tune out. They used their wives like shit. Like my brilliant non physically abusive father; he hit me once; but hated me; they left their wives often in middle of no where housing with no money to fend for themselves; wouldn’t fix a fucking water pump or the wives cars.

  83. Patrick says:

    David – it seems you write in a great rush – I know that feeling and I do it too, actually at time I love that feeling feels ‘creative’ in a way that I hardly ever feel other wise. But something tells me to tell you try slowing down a bit. The words tumble out in a great rush and I find myself ‘skipping’ over them a bit. If you try to convey too much you run the danger of conveying less at least at times

    I hope you don’t mind it’s not meant as ‘criticism’ but I think you have been a re-refreshing voice here and in my ideal blog/world we could help each other and give each other tips without causing offence and fights. That just my impressions of you.

    • David says:

      Accepted in the spirit offered, Patrick, thank you. Yeah I feel an urgency ,kind of like the memory, the thoughts may get lost before I get it down. I tend to live in a rush; odd, physically I move slow as hell. what’s that state called that is actually impossible to exist ? hmmm,oh ” multitasking.”

  84. Patrick says:

    I have been reading a lot about vaccines………………I found this very interesting. It is about so called SIDS which stands for “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome” which used to be in the news quite a bit. Not so much now just accepted?? or no longer news worthy?? I don’t know.

    “According to Harris Coulter PhD, “Crib death” was so infrequent in the pre-vaccination era that it was not even mentioned in statistics. It started to climb in the 1950s with the spread of mass vaccinations. So much so it even acquired a new name-“SIDS,” Sudden Infant Death Syndrome of unknown origin. The medical establishment assures us that SIDS is unrelated to vaccines which begs the question; How do you know its not vaccines if it is of unknown origin? The three primary doses of DPT are given at two, four and six months of age. Eighty-five per cent of SIDS deaths occur from one to six months of age, with the peak incidence from two to four months. Another coincidence?

    In a recent study of SIDS, breathing was monitored before and after vaccination. The data clearly showed that vaccination caused an extraordinary increase in episodes where breathing either nearly ceased or stopped completely. This is why it is so important to have our babies sleep on their backs, if you plan on vaccinating. It is easier for them to breath. Another problem associated with breathing is Asthma. Vaccinated children are shown to be five times more likely to become afflicted with this serious respiratory ailment.

    Dr. William Torch of the University of Nevada School of Medicine did a study of 103 children who died of SIDS. He found that more than two-thirds had been vaccinated with DPT prior to death. Of these, 6.5% died within 12 hours; 13 % died within 24 hours; 26% died within 3 days; and 37, 61 and 70 % within 1,2,3 weeks respectively. Anything that happens to a baby after four weeks is considered God-given. The average time it takes for a vaccine to dissipate in the body is 10-12 days. Click here for Dr Buttram’s explanation. Even if a baby dies immediately after a vaccination the cause of death will be labeled SIDS”.

    • David says:

      SIDS would make a good study Patrick. There’s a report in one of Arthur’s books, maybe,” the Feeling Child,” that found similarities between SIDS and suicide victims. Another of his investigative studies showed moms of Primalees dealing with particular issues reported having undergone life threatening events at about 7 months gestation.

      . A study by Dr. Henry Kempe, Colorado, in the 70’s showed the SIDS babies they studied had all had, ” Hard Births,”. Hard birth was defined as premature, post mature, with physical signs of fetal distress: ie: meconium staining / the presence of fecal matter in the amniotic fluid at birth,
      When I was doing my research, there had never been a recorded case of SIDS where there was another human in the same room at the time of death; and like the Janov study, regardless of how young, the infant had always changed body position from how their caretaker laid them down to sleep.
      I am not a pro – vaccinator and am suspicious of the effects of any toxins injected into our bodies, and that of little kids; aluminum, mercury, the Thimerisol carrier. A Naturopath colleague who is also an expert in pharmacology says the combination vaccines are a further danger.

      One argument that puzzles me is if vaccination confers total immunity on the vaccinees, why the worry that the non vaccinated child poses a risk to them ???
      I try to maintain a healthy paranoia filter but man to believe there really is a world based mind control conspiracy is a bit to swallow.

      • Patrick says:

        David – right there you have asked the right question. IF it confers ‘immunity’ what are they so afraid of from non vaccinated children? It doesn’t make sense like any of their arguments if you delve into them.

        Like a lot that Janov says I am a bit skeptical……………..not that he is so wrong but he always attempts to shoehorn a problem into HIS paradigm. And misses the boat as a result.

        This business about the infant needing to lay on it’s back and to watch that it does not lay on it’s front hardly makes any sense. I imagine that the infant lays down on it’s front to die it ‘wants’ to die or it is time for it to die from the shots not that it can’t breath in that position. About another person being in the room I would be skeptical of that also from what I have read these infants/children often die in the parents arms

        And it is not only what I read, last Saturday I met a woman I know quite well……………anyway we got to talking about vaccines she said a friend of her’s had ‘missed’ all the early vaccines the child was 4 y. o. anyway she was told/convinced she needed to ‘catch up’ on her vax schedule and did…………….that evening the child DIED in her arms. So I would say there is something MORE going on than a ‘hard birth’ or nobody being in the room.

        Janov is great and everything but it is always his tendency to as I call it ‘shoehorn’ the evidence that has made him so irrelevant in the world of science and actually in the world as we live and it and know it – all of course IMHO…………….

        • David says:

          It was the research of Colorado Pediatrician and child abuse prevention expert advocate, Dr. Henry Kempe, et al ,beginning in 1960 that I was studying when I was involved with investigating child abuse and SIDS deaths events. Clinical hallmarks of Unexplained Sudden Death in Infancy included that the baby was always alone, had always moved to a different location in he crib, and had assumed a fetal position; and was never over 9 months of age..

          In all other cases a cause of death was found at autopsy.

          Dr. Kempe was able to verify the , ” hard birth, ” component, in 1962. We were able to practice prevention by simply assuring that the at risk baby was never left alone; slept in the parents room, was carried in a front Snuggly, never alone in a rear position car seat, until the babe had passed the 9 month risk to die unexpectedly cut off. Incidentally those babies were also at higher risk for child abuse.
          In several cases I investigated, the baby had been murdered and the doctor and the undertaker failed to report the condition of the body.
          I studied with Dr. Kempe

          A medical research team that Janov commissioned delivered the independent report. that found similarities between suicides and SIDS babies. A much later and separate team dealt with a feeling level specific group whose mothers were interviewed and they volunteered that they each had suffered a life threatening experience at about 7 months gestation.

          I agree Arthur erred in not ensuring Primal Therapy became an available choice wherever psychotherapy is practiced. I am guilty of that protective behavior, too, Patrick, but because I could not trust other staff to treat patients, competently and respectfully.

          But I believe it is unproductive and misdirected to piss all over the man just because he breathes.

          • Patrick says:

            David – that’s very interesting. However your last sentence I find strange in the extreme. To me shows the kind of ‘primal touchiness’ where anything but worshipful praise of Janov is ‘pissing all over’ him??? That’s why PT is sometimes called ‘cultist’ To make it easy on you I will give you the 2 things I said about him here again…………….is that really ‘pissing all over’ him

            First Quote “Like a lot that Janov says I am a bit skeptical……………..not that he is so wrong but he always attempts to shoehorn a problem into HIS paradigm. And misses the boat as a result.”

            Second Quote “Janov is great and everything but it is always his tendency to as I call it ‘shoehorn’ the evidence that has made him so irrelevant in the world of science and actually in the world as we live and it and know it – all of course IMHO…………….

            If he is so great how come the therapy as constituted is effectivly dissapearing? Something went wrong somewhere along the way……………

            • David says:

              I don’t know the answer Patrick, but I think it is in part a result of the decision to keep therapy under close ,” quality,” control that resulted in Primal no longer being on everyone’s tongue.

              I know in my country Allopathic / MD drug pushing medicine worked hard to defame and ridicule the theory of Primal from the get go. AA members and drug addicts were insulted that Dr. Janov classified their addictions as the product of neurosis/mental illness. They like to delude themselves into believing they have congenital physical diseases, incurable and only controllable by drugs and daily dib dib dibbing and dob dob dobbing to their christian god.

              Our mock Primal center charged the fee of sticks of gum, or 10 cent bags of dulse to people who could not afford to pay, allowing them the dignity of a symbolic choice of treatment.
              We had the cooperation of an oddly healthy middle aged Brit psychiatrist in the beginning.
              Mental Health was happy to allow chronic patients to be accepted into treatment, I witnessed catatonic schizophrenics, heal, reversing the path if you like, from psychotic to neurotic to just normally fucked up like me. Our patients came from all over the world.

              As soon as chronically mentally ill patients and alcoholics got well, meds free, and idol worship free, then the medical and psychiatric community and AA came after us.

              Our Director was so excited with the results that he agreed with a patient request that they hold a symposium to share their grand fortune with doctors and the community at large. At that meeting several former hard core alcoholics told how they were able to drink safely. That was as blasphemous as soiling a christian religious statue with male bodily fluids…

              The final straw came when we accepted a 32 year old , ” schizophrenic,” young woman, daughter of a male psychiatrist and mother pediatrician.with a history of long term closed psych ward containment. Long story short, she healed from the pain of her parents ritualistic sexual abuse from age 10 – 14, when she made a disclosure of sexual abuse and her father had her committed, treated with courses of ECT and Chlorpromazine for nearly 2 decades until an aunt rescued her.

              That was the final nail in the coffin of Primal clinics of Atlantic Canada. .

              I am a fair person, Patrick, and I would rather there be a private way to say this. I know I have at least a 100 % chance of being wrong; I have no desire to give anyone extra fodder to piss on you. What I say is said without mean spirit or trying to be so smart; but, when you write about Dr. Janov your hate for the guy is palpable, I can taste it. I hope you take this in the spirit I offer it. And I’m not interested in changing anyone’s opinion about anything. What do I know ??

              I believe that Dr. Janov’s discovery should be the hallmark of psychotherapy, not an obscure cult class alternative..

              I have seen the the damage done by the mind fucking games of conventional psychiatry and psychology with their DSM dial a diagnosis, ECT, lobotomies, the manipulative condescending dialogue and mind controlling drugs, including the needless suicides. I witnessed the physical and sexual abuse of committed patients.

              I am not know for my blind or easily solicited praise, Patrick. My level of creature comfort would have been better if I was.

    • David says:

      I was an uneducated sheep when my kids were small. We accepted vaccinations blindly. They were ill after every vaccination and it was called a normal response. It was an anti Rubella vaccine injected into my wife when she was exposed to German Measles in her first Trimester of pregnancy that was deemed the probable cause of our baby girl’s congenital heart deformity; transposition of the great vessels.
      Vaccinations are neither tested for safety nor efficacy in humans.

      • Patrick says:

        David – I am so sorry to hear that. Apparently now that is the new ‘trend’ (I am not saying that was the case with your wife) but the new ‘trend’ is to vaccinate in utero which makes sense from their demented viewpoint. In other words vaccinating against Hepatitis B at one day old is not QUITE ‘safe enough. We need to get them while in the womb. That way they can emerge into this super dangerous world of bugs and germs ‘armed’ and ‘defended’ by their so called vaccinations

        Kind of an interesting twist on the Catholic thing where we born a ‘sinner’ or ‘impure’ we needed Baptism to wash away our ‘sins’. Now it’s the world that is ‘impure’ it is full of bugs and germs that the infant must be inoculated against. On balance as ‘bad’ as it was i would take the Catholic version every time

        From my reading I have become convinced that ALL vaccinations are either dangerous or just worthless and ineffective but the real tragedy now is they get the children/infants so young and so many shots.

        I was taking to my brother in Ireland and they have just come up with ANOTHER one cattle have to vaccinated against. A neighbor told him it’s 2 shots and something squirted up the nose and costs 20 Euro. Can you imagine the money in that (there are lots of cattle in Ireland) and the result will be further weakening of the herd.and discouraging of the farmers. A crazy and bad world we live in………………again to sort of turn the Catholic thing upside down. So it’s like it is true what the vaxxers say but ironically it is BECAUSE of what they do there is nothing inherently ‘bad’ about the world. Another of those self fulfilling prophecies……………

        • David says:

          Yep, we keep fucking with, ” normal,” and then the abnormal becomes the new normal. I tend to just say what I believe is true but most of my fellow Naturopaths and MD’s who are kindred spirits only speak their mind behind closed doors, scared of being black listed as ubernuts…
          The history begins in earnest in the late 1800’s when the Hearsts, Rockerfellas, Duponts, Emersons, bought political favor in return for being president makers. Alloparhic Medicine , (MD’s,) cut, burn and poison , aka surgery, radiation, and chemical drugs, They killed natural medicine and with their acquired monopoly replaced it with their wealth making machine. Now Big Petro owns Big Pharma, and patents on all medical machines; that owns all of the Hospitals that own all of the Medical Clinics…….. And they are currently making that monopoly around the world. Australia just enacted laws that says if you refuse to have yourself and your babies vaccinated the government will not sign any government generated cheques payable to you, pay cheques, social security cheques, baby bonus, etc.. A buddy of mine says that the fascists are set to take over as soon as the christianity organized crime bosses die off.

          The AMA killed, breast feeding, vaginal delivery, babies being raised by their mamas, and home baking and home cooking. I believe that explains a good deal of the impairment of natural immunity.

          The same scenario made the little known and unimportant orange the King fruit of America.

  85. Margaret says:

    > I must confess I also started recently to ‘skip through’ a lot of the comments, and had completely missed David talking about being abused in his childhood.
    > just to be clear, it is not only your comments I started to only read partially, David, it was anyone’s mostly, the long stories about movers or the details of primal theory being right or wrong etc., sorry, too much of it, for me at this moment I guess..
    > David, I still think you probably misinterpreted something I wrote as being ‘nasty’ to you, wish you’d have answered to that one, but well..
    > this goes for Patrick as well, in my opinion when we are ‘lashing out’ to someone, it is not enough to say ‘that is why I did it’, or in serious cases, even an apology does not necessarily make it all right again.
    > don’t get me wrong,I am actually a good ‘forgiver’, really.
    > I guess what I want to say is forgiveness being possible is not a free ticket to just be allowed to say or do whatever expecting it will not have lasting consequences.
    > if things like that happen just one time too often, it seems just a healthy reaction to stay clear as much as possible from the person that caused hurt or behaved in an offensive or hostile way.
    > it then for me can only change when I get the feeling that person is adressing on more than a superficial level what caused his or her behaviour, and expresses to be sorry in a genuine way, which can only be one’s own personal subjective response then, whether and to which w
    > extend one feels willing then to make peace again or not.
    > but this goes for Jack, I wonder why if not wanting to make up, which I can understand, you still want to ‘poke’?
    > I am not saying it is wrong or right, but curious why really you do it, what feeling makes you want to do it.
    > and please, don’t just say ‘it is fun’, I htink it is more than that.
    > is it anger, or defending your teritory, not wanting to give in, fear?
    > really, just curious, I don’t count on an answer really, it would be nice, but well, just expressing myself here..
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      I like most everything you say there Margaret including what I have to ‘learn’ it can be a painful lesson. Honestly I took primal as benediction for any and all kinds of expressions/insults whatever etc. Well anyway I find that is not the real world so have to pretty much take that on board.

      I think Freud talked about that like if one is to lift one’s own repression the world does not just change for you……………the world is still the same.

      I admire the way you come through things you are a fighter but also a forgiver…………..I think that is a good combination.

      I want to apologize to you also about coming on so strong about vaccines etc…………the thing is when I get ‘passionate’ about something I want to tell the whole world so to speak. I understand all of this hit you from left field you were kind of just in the way. I did not plan any of this I asked you about your cat and vaccinations just at the beginning of this and then learned and found out more and more. But I know you were an un-suspecting person on the road who sort of just got ran over

      The only thing I would suggest now is think just a bit about what you will do to your ‘new’ cat if you get one. DON’T take the word of vets etc to me that is the beginning of lots of mistakes. It’s interesting too my brother and all the farmers in Ireland are being directed and told what to do by “Brussels” as they call it actually the EU. The EU is FULL of regulations they have effectively ruined all Irish farming to the point where farmers do not dare to drink the milk they produce

      You live close to Brussels………….the atmosphere of regulation and interfering with Nature is strong there……………..the Irish know better if only they would listen to their ancestral wisdom……………….but sadly mostly they don’t. They because of their inferior feeling about themselves allow themselves to be told what to do by their ‘betters’. That used to be the English but now it’s the EU (Brussels)

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret I quote you:- “but this goes for Jack, I wonder why if not wanting to make up, which I can understand, you still want to ‘poke’?………………………………………………… and please, don’t just say ‘it is fun’, I think it is more than that.”

      As best as I am able, I will answer you. First off, there is an historical connection between Patrick and I almost 30 years. That 30 years cannot be ignored (from my perspective) Next:- Patrick entered this blog in what I perceived as an attempt to humiliate me perhaps even attempt to hurt me. None of which it achieved, as best as I am currently aware. What I felt was:- Patrick was wanting something, but he was using a means that I felt was crazy; characterized by some in Gentle Giant as “verbal bullying” (something I feel he learned in the school yard as a kid). He never bullied me since I felt he knew he did not dare, because I was more than useful to the company and it’s operation

      Patrick NOW begins to tell me that he was in a desperate situation and wanting me to do something for him. I was willing but I had a one condition; prior stated. Had Patrick approached me in a different manner I might have been willing to indulge him and reconsider. However during that 30 years of knowing him I had watched how he dealt with others (a practice I did not like), but since he was dealing with someone else I did not interfere. Suddenly I now found he was attempting to use that same modality on me. I thought then (mistakenly) he would see that this approach with me was not working. I now see this as a blind spot in him, but he continues in this manner, not only with me, but others including you Margaret.

      Why I wish to “poke” him is I wish to be a ‘counter balance’ to what I see as his “desperate” attempt to use this blog to “re-organize Primal Therapy and dispute Primal Theory and castigate Arthur Janov. You, I gathered, wished for him to be banned, if only for a time. Because of who and what I am, I will counter his approach, by what ever means I have at my disposal (Pokes). In the hopes that it at least shows others he’s off on some tangent/s. (first Paleo, now vaccines and I am sure his old feelings will find [through his prolific reading] some other means).

      Lastly:- Does it bother you Margaret that I am having FUN doing it? I know in the past you have stated you do not ‘like it at others expense’ …. but I noticed few jumped upon Patrick for his vitriol against me … save Gretchen initially. Ok, if you feel it is more than just that, perhaps you are right, and this is one of my blind spots. What I would like from you Margaret is to tell me directly and simply (don’t hold back cos I can take it from you) what you feel is going on with me in this incessant poking of Patrick. You don’t have to be right (as I feel you already know) … just express what it is you feel.

      Hope that answers most of your questions.


      • Phil says:

        Jack, You say one reason you poke Patrick is as a counter balance to the things he says. But I find it hard to believe you think Patrick could have some effect on primal by what he says on this blog. Also the participating bloggers are limited in number and there is nothing new in what you and Patrick say in the interaction. You are not reaching a huge audience. It all seems pointless, repetitive, and annoying. That’s maybe why I was referring to it as a primal comedy routine. You guys got to freshen it up and add new material. I was hoping you would take Patrick up on his offer for reconciliation if only so you would stop poking him. My assumption is Patrick is angry because primal hasn’t work out for him. He seemingly no longer has any trust in therapists or the process, so it couldn’t work. So, you might think it’s time to move on. Phil

        • jackwaddington says:

          Phil: I have said in the past that Patrick has a great talent as a salesman … and to the unititiated, be convincing. Hence, I do beleive he could do one of two things here on this blog. The first is:- others that might have some doubt about the effacacy of this therapy might be convinced by what he says, without some counter response. That I would find a great pity. The second is that there are, out there, others, and possibly reading this blog, though not commenting, characterized as “Primal deniers”. They then could take all this back to their own blog as instances of a Primal person, to demonstrate the lack of what they deem is the ineffectiveness of Primal.

          Being that I feel strongly that the discovery of “Primal Pain”was the greatest discovery ever made… or for that matter, will ever be made. Why!!! because finally I see it, we humans have now discovered something about OURSELVES … I see that, as way more important that what is happening out there in our known universe … or any other aspect of science. It could, by my way of thinking, perhaps restore us to our original full-feeling-selves. Hopefully before we totally wipe out all life on this planet.

          Ok. I realize, and perhaps with good cause you find it pointless, repetative and annoying … that is not my feeling … but then I could be way off point here. It is for that very reason that I am prepared to read anyone that has a some notion of what they perceive is going on with me. I will read it and as best I know how give it great consideration.


          • Phil says:

            Jack, Maybe there are more people reading the blog than I was thinking. If there are, it would great if they would participate by posting. I noticed some good news by the way; the “debunking primal” website is no longer seems to be around. Phil

            • jackwaddington says:

              Phil: I really do feel there are more people than is assumed, reading this blog and not commenting. I am not sure of their reason, but I will proffer some:- Most of us want to be thought of as good and nice people (a myth IMO) Another could is that they have little to say, but wish only to be entertained or edificated by other’s ideas. Another could be that they are scarred shit-less lest someone jumps on their case (old feeling stuff there, I feel). Perhaps one last egocentric one in that they feel above it all.

              Just stuff off the top of my head at the moment of reading your response. Maybe just a figment of my (weird) imagination.

              I do feel that the purpose of the blog is to stimulate feelings and hopefully to get readers to respond. My reasoning being that Barry B in one group I attended suggested that we just say the first thing that comes into our heads. To me, that represent the real me (in my case). Censoring what I say is what I had to do as a kid and I feel what many others had to do. By going with what Barry suggested I feel puts each of us into that vulnerable position we encountered in our childhoods and hence could be capable of precipitating what is behind all our trepidation. To take another piece from a therapist I deeply admire,Vivian, who often said “Take a risk”

              So far; my taking those kinds of risks have not killed me … yet.


              • David says:

                Thanks for this post Jack. I fear I may have non deliberately entertaining myself composing the long but totally true accounts of my life.
                One reason I can see for the long windedness is that I always had to deliver a convincing account of events as a defense to escape my mother’s beatings..
                Fuck it must drive people ion the receiving end nuts. I always found my father’s soliloquies boring and infuriating.

                • jackwaddington says:

                  David: for what it’s worth; don’t take what anyone might say about you writing here. Just write your thing, your way and when you feel like it, as I feel you are doing. I read you, but not sure l know where you are at or where you are coming from, most of the time … maybe a factor of getting passed 80. To and for me, that’s not relevant. It comes to all of us, as I see it, in bits and pieces..

                  The great insight I got some time ago was there is no “end point’ to this therapy. Just more and more of feeling this stuff and each time getting better at expressing it. All I am able to do is see what others say about me as some mirror being held up to me. I need all that, as I am not the only person in the universe. My universe yeah! … but then there are these little bugs (not the living kind) swearling around that “bug” me.


          • David says:

            A good place for me to state unequivocally that I believe Primal Therapy holds the greatest hope for recovery from mental illness. I have seen miracles result. And I’m not an easy sell.

          • David says:

            I remember running to Barry B to rat out patient John ### who was making horribly disparaging remarks about Primal, at the hotel on Pico. He told me to save my money and go home, that it was crap, the Institutes were a fraud.. I was really worried that he could scare off people who really needed therapy. Barry told me and I quote, ” I have great respect for that man. He has the courage to say what he feels.”

            I felt whipped by , ” daddy,”. I had been the good boy and got the shit kicking.

            Barry was right of course.

            • Patrick says:

              Somehow nobody ever said anything like that to me…………………..and I never said (that I remember) that it was ‘crap’ or a ‘fraud’. Sometimes actually though he has never said anything like that I imagine Barry reading some of the stuff I write and even ‘agreeing’ with me. Honestly I don’t think I am so ‘anti-primal’ at all I know LOTS of people who have done the therapy and are completely ‘over’ it, I and maybe unfortunately for me am still in a kind of uncomfortable middle……………but I do believe and feel I am going through something I am working towards something. Keep in mind the people here while maybe mostly all on the same page are a self selected group and not at typical the way I see of people who have gone through therapy. Me I am not ‘typical’ either just my own freaking painful self but anyway I feel I am on a path that’s good for me.

              I was thinking how do I ‘place’ myself and I thought of Martin Luther (not MLK) I am talking about the German friar who broke away from the Catholic Church. He didn’t reject Jesus or Christianity or the Bible but his DID object to some of the actual practice of the Church. Anyway just a conceit I had…………….but I did order a book on Luther have not got it yet but something tells me it will be interesting to me……….Phil puts me in some category of someone who can’t or won’t trust therapists or something I find that shallow and a bit weak…………………..

              • David says:

                Whoa, Whoa, Patrick; I must be a terrible communicator. I never said that you said that stuff; rather a guy I called, “John.” No one on this blog.
                Friends of mine in LA had John pick me up at LAX and drive me to the famous PICO BUNDY hotel. He crapped on Primal, the Janov’s, and the therapists.. I learned from him , too, that Arthur and Vivian had divorced. That was shocking !! The god that knew the magic to save me wasn’t there.
                John told me to save my money and go back home, that the therapy and the therapists were frauds.
                My point in telling the story is what happened when I ratted John out to Barry. My motivation was honorable. I was worried he might interfere with someone in need of therapy.

                Barry’s response was what is important. He didn’t reward me. He said that he had enormous respect for John because John had the courage to speak his mind. He was not interested in stifling criticism. That adds to the Institute’s credibility for me.

                This was not in reference to you Patrick. I would be a Tyrranosaurus PRICK if I behaved that way to you.

                I do not know Dr. Janov , and only Vivian, Barry, Gretchen, as any patient knows them. I would trust them with my life.
                I don’t share the opinion of anyone that the therapy is ineffective nor do I have any facts that would cause me to conclude that Dr.Janov is Dr Evil. There is proof for me that he is Dr Genius for having described this therapy.


        • David says:

          When I read your original comment Phil, I thought , shit, this Jack and Patrick are pals, co – conspirators writing this scrip, luring the rest of us into feeling states. How generous of them .That made it more palatable. Wow, but if it is just what it is, that’s really sad, from my perspective.

          I was in a cab in Toronto years ago heading to Hamilton, and while chatting about what I worked at, the cabbie passed me a letter. He told me about some guy, a former close friend, he’d fallen out with 30 years before. He said he’d decided to accept the olive branch this former friend had offered from time to time. He passed me the letter saying, ” This explains it all.” I looked at the letter that started , ” Dear Ed,…” and passed it back saying , ,”Ed,” it didn’t feel right for me to read his friend’s letter to him. He answered that he was Alvin, his friend was Ed. Said he’d carried that letter around for weeks trying to get to mailing it. Now it was too late. Ed’s wife had phoned that evening to say Ed was dead, killed while stopped to render assistance to someone.
          ” That would be Ed, he said, always had to get involved…”

          • Larry says:

            They’ve been at each other’s throats on this blog for probably at least 3 years, beginning when Patrick first appeared on the blog. When they put on a fight and duke it out round after lengthy round, it makes a person not want to bother with this blog. Their exchanges were a lot more vitriolic in the past. Recently there was a rare, brief, sensitive exchange between them, a fascinating turn to witness.

            • jackwaddington says:

              Larry: I take ‘exception’ to this latest comment of yours … I need to explain my feelings about a) ‘blogging’, b) ‘feelings’ and their place in life, c) ‘running away’ from all that we perceive as unpleasant.

              BLOGGING: is a forum for the exchange of idea and opinions … whatever those opinions might entail. If you merely wish for it all to be “lovey dovey” (my phrase) … then I feel you are in the wrong forum.

              FEELINGS and their place in life: All feelings are valid and that will inevitably involve feelings we do not always like If you really feel bad about the way the blog is going; I know not what you can do … BUT to try and change the tempo of the blog, to me, is a forlorn task.

              RUNNING AWAY from all that we feel is unpleasant:- is not a solution, as I see it: We can ignore it, skip over those comments we feel bad about, or express our feeling about them… BUT “not want[ing] to bother with the blog” I feel is a cop-out.


              • Larry says:

                Jack, don’t get your knickers in a twist, and fuck….are you preaching to me? If you are, enough patronizing preaching already. It makes me angry when someone tries to preach to me what I already know better than them. If you aren’t preaching, then what is the feeling underneath what you wrote, driving you to write it?

                The venom between you and Patrick was a lot more vicious two or so years ago. You want to sit through a bar fight like the one between the motor cycle gangs in Waco, Texas, go ahead, be my guest. Not me. I walk away from bar fights and find better things to do. It’s a totally valid feeling about unpleasant bar fights that guides my life well, Jack.

                You two have become a lot more civil to each other in the last year or so, so the blog doesn’t stink as bad as it did then. I haven’t walked away. I still get what I need from it. To those who stay away, either they don’t need it or they’re otherwise busy. It’s nice to see a newcomer, David, join. The blog will be whatever the people who participate here make it to be. Hopefully the people here will be sensitive enough to let others explore their feelings here. That’s what is most important to me.

      • David says:

        You are truly gifted with clarity of written thought, Jack. I wish I had it. Patrick pointed out to me, kindly, how my using too many words can detract from the message being read.
        I think me daring to expose what was done to me and then what I did to me by buying in is more important to me than considering if it will be read. It’s nice to hear kind comments though.
        Someone will tell me I’m full of shit sometime, I’m sure.. hah Having survived Bella the rest of the world is not up to the task.

        Just remembered going to a ” Primal,” folks birth day party in LA.. During the evening seeing her standing alone I kissed the gal who I went with on the forehead. It really upset her because she worried I had, ” marked,” her; ie: no other guy would hit on her because I had staked claim with that friend kiss on her forehead.
        I went outside for a smoke and was overcome by my teenage feeling of not belonging anywhere. Mom was right again, no pretty girl would ever want to be with me, a fat, ugly faced guy.

        • jackwaddington says:

          David: let me be the first on to tell you are full of shit. How do I know … well sometime, minutes after my birth, I started shitting and have been doing it ever since. I did hope that I would reach a point when I was all emptied out, and rid of all that messy smelly stuff. But alas it keeps on coming. I gather that you are in the same dilemma, so there you have it … you must be full of shit also. 🙂 .

          Boy!!! this language that my folk in that piece of the islands in the North Sea devised this lingua and it’s so full of absurdities … puns, onomatopoeia, hyperbola, paradoxes, ironies. alliterations and some other stuff that my English teacher taught me that I have since forgotten.

          My father had a thing about shit. What’s so terrible about it? we all do it … so I am given to understand.

          We deride the anus (arse hole) and other parts in that same region. What with us humans????


          P.S. In the film (movie) “Amadeus” the music master to the Emperor told Mozart there were “too many notes … cut a few” Wolfgang responded with “which few did you have in mind?”

          You might ask Patrick the same question.


    • David says:

      Probably too big a coincidence , Margaret, Brussels, were you ever an interpreter ?

      Margaret, I have been , ” feeling,” doing, ” mock,” Primal,since the early 70’s then the real thing mid 80’s. I was a Professional Social Worker, psychotherapist, Dr. of Naturopathy, Homeopath a Certified Counselor, musician, singer songwriter.. I cringe at saying , “i was,”; because I think it sounds pretentious. but it’s the quickest way to say how I served. And I don’t know if this is neurotic but I always felt/thought I was a fraud.
      I am probably the most kindly, forgiving soul I know. Over the past 2 years I began to quit people with whom I had one way relationships; ones where I permitted myself to be used. I’ve been a bit pissed off lately. One thing that’s clear is that I have always aquiesced to ,” understanding,” people, but I have never been extended that same understanding. I changed a bit and overreaction accompanies change while trying on new skin. I don’t take anything that sounds like, ” you don’t know shit about me,” shit. And I don’t react well if I get that spidey sense tingle that someone is trying to manipulate
      me out of my right to my feelings. It’s not like I have spent time thinking about it but the evidence is clear, being genuinely, kind, accepting did not affect the outcome one little bit towards establishing real friendships. So while I wish no one harm I no longer associate with those people. And I tell people in socially acceptable ways mostly not to fuck with me.
      It feels like making myself vulnerable to give you an apology Margaret right now; but don’t concern yourself with it. I’m practicing standing up for myself. That’s coming from feelings not my head.
      As the cowardly party leaving an intimate relationship and wanting to get away unscathed always says to the other, , ” It isn’t you, it’s me.”

      I can’t even make a witty remark without people who know my character should know when I am joking. But, no, I’m chided for saying something silly. I was so serious a guy up to age 60, always oh so careful to never say anything that could possibly be misunderstood that would hurt another. Now I am free to be as silly as I wish. I am now as witty as I always wished I was when I was a younger man. And I will be as ridiculous as I choose. I will never deliberately hurt anyone and will help anyone I can. That’s my character.

  86. Margaret says:

    > just saw a program about possible other causes of allergies becoming so widespread.
    > one of them was in some countries 25 procent of the births have become caesareans now, robbing the child from certain bacteria the birth canal provides for them, covering their whole bodies at birth with a layer of these bacteria, which work like an anti-allergic boosting the immune system.
    > then another factor is our internal biotope of bacteria is becoming too poor, too little getting in touch with outdoor natural life, animals and earth etc.
    > well, I have got my share of that as a kid luckily, used to be playing out in the ‘dirt’ all day, and even craled into our dog’s small doghouse once,remember just fitting in, and it being kind of dusty and hairy inthere, and well, smelling of dog, smiley..
    > i agree with there probably being overvaccinating nowadays, but well, would want to be careful not to throw out the child with the bathwater so to say.
    > polio was such a terrible disease, if a fairly safe vaccine can prevent thousands of children to get paralysed or disabled, well, it ba becomes a question of balancing I guess.
    > the plague being another example of a horrible disease having almost disappeared.
    > but well, I agree on the fact too many vaccinations can be equally harmful, but I am not at all an expert on the matter, can only say it is good there is a discussion going on about it..
    > M

    • David says:

      I listened to that about a year ago Margaret. I was really into the obstetrician narrating the presentation until he got down to how they propose righting the situation. They want to continue controlling women’s bodies and raking in the income from their factory farm deliveries. So instead of returning C Sections to it’s proper status, last ditch response to EMERGENCY LIfe Saving Procedure, instead of system convenience and control of women, Doctor plays golf at 3pm, they propose swabbing the mom’s vaginal canal and swearing the secretions over the babies body. These same geniuses called the wonderful Dr. Frederick LeBoyer nasty names when he suggested that doctors so inoculate their hands before touching newborns.
      Vaginal deliveries need to be reinstated as the primary delivery procedure.

    • David says:

      I agree, Margaret. All of the hand sanitizers, antibacterial soaps and sprays, wrecking the biome we need to encounter and defeat in establishing a competent immune response.. Like letting the boy in the bubble out… The percentage of intestinal bacterium ratio to total contents weight in a healthy bowel is significant. They play a huge part in an innumerable number of processes.

  87. Larry says:

    David, you make me think of this song:

    • David says:

      My youngest daughter and her 14 year old erudite friends rewrote that tune, substituting the lyrics of filthy mouthed 14 year olds, .” I got held down,, and i ‘m knocked up ag’in….. I knew 14 year old boys did that, I was one once, but prim, proper, 14 year old ballerinas??? I snuck off so as not to embarrass them.hah. She’s a wonderful 36 year old, multi degreed strong woman, and, great mom now;;and out of ear shot of her kids she has the mouth of a pirate. She never heard it from me. I thought I was imaginative, but she’s found creative applications for the word , “fuck,” I never thought of. And I cringe to hear that sweet little girl say it…hah

      ‘m liucky , I guess, Larry. Was it my wonder grampy?? I don’t know. Maybe it was avoiding attracting pain. I have not a clue. But I managed survive to hold a 40 year career in human sciences and the respect of coworkers who were decent to others. The bureaucrats I’m proud to say hated me. I have served on charities, the last one I have served for 45 years and chaired for 30, so I am able to play well with others. There are a dozen friends who would say I saved their lives.
      But, I have never had a friend where I would always be welcome at any time, impossible to ever be an inconvenience to just one person. Maybe that’s an unreasonable expectation. Maybe that only comes from a healthy parent child relationship. Except, I have known people who have had that. And sometimes I go away from their presence , hurt, and cry

  88. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > thanks for your long and honest answer.
    > it sounded genuine and made sense.
    > to your question I cam only say I did not know really what your motives were, that is why I asked.
    > what you said about the thirty years of history and Patrick’s entry on the blog makes me think there is indeed some anger involved, but all the other things you say make sense as well, so thanks for expanding a bit about what is your own stricktly personal mix of feelings.
    > I am not opposing to any of it.
    > Patrick, I know I said I would never adress you again, but well, I heard your apology,.
    > if I may give another advice, it would be nice if you try to generalize a bit less.
    > you’d be surprised at how some vets, even ones that live not very far from Brussels, also question the number of vaccinations that are given at this moment.
    > people are individuals, with their individual opinions, which depend rarely or to a minimal degree of where they live, but much more on their interest and formation and general viewpoints that also keep evolving all the time.
    > specially attributing opinions to people just because of the country they live in or the profession they have, well, it does not feel right to me.
    > I have even mentioned before I have asked my vet about the vaccines and what she answered, so well, I hope you can see there was no ‘need’ to run me over to make your point so to say.
    > truely hope you do reflect on this, as it would also help you a lot in my opinion.
    > M

    • David says:

      A professional acquaintance , a Phd in animal medicine, who uses Homeopathy primarily, and Acupuncture; and Natural Diets, and refuses to comply with euthanasia for human convenience requests, has been often threatened with loss of license for not practicing the standard,burn, cut and poison vet medicine. His satisfied owners would revolt .

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I think you can lighten up a bit about ‘generalizations’. When I say “Brussels” I am how would say joking is not quite right but anyway no need to take it so literally I mean about a specific place or country. I know if anything it is the whole EU policies

      As far as you vet – I was reacting to all the stuff you constantly were saying about you cat, all the shots and creams and suits etc etc. And I am just saying maybe look at your ‘results’ Were the results good? From what I see they were not.

      My ‘advice’ and I know that’s a dirty word here if you get a new cat JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, LET IT BE A CAT. That involves doing NOTHING or a ‘medical’ nature. That’s right NOTHING nothing at all. And when you will undoubted see much better ‘result’s you might then think a bit more in general about ‘medical interventions’

  89. Margaret says:

    > the whole ‘medicalizing ‘ of the farming is maybe finding its concentration point in Brussels, but is a complex interaction between a lot of pressure groups, not to forget also the ‘bio-industry’, replacing traditional farming,which I find very worrying.
    > annimals are only regarded as how much gain per kilo they offer, and how fast they can be forced to grow, it is a shocking and degrading evolution which I strongly oppose.
    > the only thing I can do against it sadly enough, apart from supporting some animal defense groups, is not buying regular meat or as little as possible.
    > it is the whole ‘marrket’ system which we as consumers form part of, if the majority of us keep bying ‘cheap’ meat, which actually means cruelly raised meat full of hormones and antibiotics, pressure will remain on the politicians making up the rules to keep their farming voters in the comercial race.
    > animal rights pressure groups can only do so much if we as consumers don’t go along and support them with our own behavior.
    > so well, even while I live close to Brussels, I would forbid what actually forms the bio-industry, it is a shame,a disgrace.
    > M

  90. Patrick says:

    David – I have been stretching my mind in trying to remember you. I think I can ‘see’ you now tall not really tall like 6-1, skinny and in good shape, a bit ‘curly’ hair not really curly just like a bit or a bit in front, talkative a little bit ‘self absorbed………………………….

    It was (if I am on the right track) in the Brooks Ave house in the ‘living room’ which was just one sofa as the atual living room had been cordoned off and turned into a bedroom

    I hope this is not boring to people I just did it as a bit of an exercise to let my mind recall it gradually came to me………………..not that I really know if I am right……………

    • David says:

      I’d like to say, yes to tall and skinny and curlyish hair, and,” not me,” to self absorbed. I think I would not come off as self absorbed. I was 5’11”, pretty straight hair, shoulder length when 1st in LA and then,respectably short, per Frank’s recommendation. I am barrel chested, 190 lb when in good shape; an obese 240 lb when I arrived Aug 86; 190lb, 44- 46 ” chest and 32 ” waist when I left May, 87. I think both you and Frank were home, August 86, when Jerry and I answered your ad for new roommates wanted. We didn’t make the cut.
      I think Tom Foley recommended me to Frank. It was my opinion Frank had started his own moving service by the time I began working for him. Rented Ryder trucks until he bought one, a cab over, in Colorado, I think, mid Fall 86.
      I only remember someone eating in the kitchen; the day we moved the family out of Venice; the new guy I think Frank said. Brooks rt off of Venice heading south, your house just a few houses off Venice on left side of street ???

      Yep I play wandering through history too; to prove my intact mental acuity to myself, hah !!!
      Guess we can use this spot as we wish….

      • Patrick says:

        David – I am pretty sure it was you then all the physical features pretty much match………… far as ‘self absorbed’ that would be in the eye of the beholder. Do you think someone who doesn’t think they are ‘self absorbed’ quite often ARE. I mean that might be part of the syndrome I know a bit of what I speak here. A friend one time told me I was ‘self absorbed’ and my first reaction was not at all I am interested in all kinds of things but later I realized she was right. I was too self absorbed to notice that I was self absorbed lol…………….

        • David says:

          cool, holmes…I’ve never been skinny. watching a flick with Daniel Craig; shit How I wanted to look like that when I had fantasies about wanting to be a chick magnet. Now when the call me dear and hon, its as a prefix for , ” poor old thing..” haaa As sad an awakening as coming to grips with the fact that that BIG Yellow, “S” on my forehead is not for SUPER…

  91. Margaret says:

    > ha, I was interviewed for the monthly magazine of the Open University, for studying psychology as a blind student in her fifties.
    > I just reread the version they made of it, a shortened version of my answer to their questions, but was very glad to see they left in my mentioning of Primal Therapy and its usefullness as one of the causes to raise my interest in studying again.
    > a small thing maybe, but on the other hand not so small, as this is my first achivement to publish something about Primal Therapy in the actual ‘professional’ or ‘future professionals’ field of psychology.
    > not only the name of Primal was nentioned, but also that I went to Los Angeles for it for years, and that it is a deep exploration of repressed and unprocesssed emotions dating as well from a more recent past as from childhood.
    > I added over the years my interest and involvment kept growing, leading to my decision to pick up the study at the Open University.
    > ha, and they asked for a digital picture, so I gave them the only digital picture I have on my laptop, me and my former cat, smiley.
    > apart from that it is about working with the screenreader and having to do it all mostly by myself as it is such specialized software, and about the good assistance I got nevertheless from my mentor and specially from my statistics teacher.
    > but hey, maybe some people will look up “Primal Therapy’.
    > I said much more about it and about Janov and Barry and Gretchen but well, they left out that bit. but still, hey, I feel pleased about it!
    > M

    • David says:

      Margaret, you speak of your visual blindness,in this post. Are you life long blind ? A visually blind friend,who was a stringed instruments musician, had a stock answer that tickled him when asked if he had been blind since birth. He answered,” To the best of my memory.” He used to have a penchant for driving his ,” smash up derby car,” in his field. Asked about that he’d reply, that he had intended to become a race car driver, that the smash up designation was the result of a natural progression, being unable to see where he was going.
      Do you watch the TV show, Battle Creek. I get the impression that the creator may be referencing Primal. I nearly jagged in watching it, The conflict interaction between some of the characters is so typical of 7 – 9 year olds. Rowan Atkinson says his , ” Mr Bean, ” character is a nasty 9 year old and that he dislikes him and is amazed he is liked by viewers.

  92. Patrick says:

    That’s cool Margaret – good for you.

    David – I will write down here because if I reply directly the comment gets too ‘skinny’.We are getting our wires crossed just a little bit I mean in relation to the Back Motel story. So let me try to clear it up.

    You said “John” said PT was a ‘con’ and ‘crap’ but that Barry said he respected “John” because he thinks for himself, says what he believes etc etc. My point was and is I don’t think I even ‘went that far’ or said things like that but it is true I have been a ‘critic’ of PT quite a lot here. I know also you did not say or imply that I ever said it was ‘crap’ but I was simply saying how come I never got those kinds of kudos from Barry or actually anyone else.. Sounds lame maybe wanting kudos but anyway I want to be clear and I also know you didn’t say that I said it was ‘crap’ So hopefully that puts that to bed.

    About Art Janov you said about me

    “when you write about Dr. Janov your hate for the guy is palpable, I can taste it.”

    Umm…………….I would not put it like that. I have a great sense of disappointment in him I think he tripped over something with enormous potential but sadly I feel it has remained mostly as potential. I am sure people here will quickly say my ‘disappointment’ is with myself, yes partly I have to agree but I hate that kind of primal ‘cheap shot’ where any criticism is so quickly turned back of the critic (Cult Alert!!)

    That has been the practice from the beginning all the way to now………………and it has not served PT very well.

    • Phil says:

      Patrick, I agree with what David wrote about your apparent hate for Janov. I am astounded by what you write here. It’s probably pointless to remind you, but in many posts over the time I’ve been here you’ve crapped repeatedly all over Janov, the therapy, the therapists and the members here. You’ve said that the therapy and therapists are a scam as well as many other hateful things. It has seemed to me that you strive to say the most vicious, hurtful things possible on this blog. Then it seems like you want to pretend nothing happened. Phil

      • Patrick says:

        Cult Alert!!

        • Phil says:

          Patrick, With David, for some reason, you want to say you are disappointed with Janov. That you don’t really hate him. So tell me then, and no “cult alert” b.s., what accounts for all the bile you release here? Phil

          • Patrick says:

            Oh for fucks sake Phil stop all this ‘precious’ nonsense. You call it ‘bile’ to me it’s something else. I have a purpose even if only for myself that goes beyond bile. Phil the little I know of you you seem a very ‘conventional’ thinker. Maybe that ‘works’ for you but it does not work for me at all

    • David says:

      Oh, good. I did not want to have created a misunderstanding with you, Patrick.. Actually I reread your post, understood you were not even thinking I was accusing you. I slapped myself; why didn’t I read it fully instead of glancing and reacting. It also alluded me that you were making that comparison that you are never shown respect for speaking your mind. I respect that and prefer it in my interactions, even if it doesn’t always feel good. I like to know where I stand and have the opportunity to respond how I choose.

      I wish the Institute and the Primal Center would explain why they have kept the practice of the,” real,” Primal Therapy to themselves. I am sure these highly intelligent minds have thought about this.

      I can totally understand the quality control;argument. It is valid. I realize they were in the initial understanding and development phase. But at some point clutching control became flawed reasoning.

      Frgive me for making the ugly comparison, but if MacDonalds had limited itself to one restaurant, patented all of their products and issued blatant public warnings that only their MacStuff was the one and only, and, the only safe, real mac coy; and to stay clear from all dangerous counterfeiters, mock burger makers, MacDonalds would have failed.

      What if Dr, Christian Bernard had kept his heart surgery techniques to himself advising the world that only his personally supervised surgery was the real/competent product ??

      In the case of MacDonalds world health would be better served if they had failed… IMMHFO

      Arthur, IMMHO, should have traveled the world sharing certified peer reviewed patient testimonials and encouraging therqpist to go for it, offering to assist opening Primal Therapist Training Centers.
      In the beginning, Dr. Janov writes, time and again, he knew nothing about what they were doing.. And the patients developed the therapy. I am not competent to say but it is possible the theory and the treatment techniques continue to evolve.

      What happens to the availability of the real Primal Therapy beyond the longstanding professional devotees, Arthur, France, Vivian, Barry, Gretchen.

      That’s my concern and the gripe I have, it is bloody selfish, criminal, if their eventual passing kills Primal Therapy.

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: I can’t be absolutely certain, but I did read somewhere why Art didn’t want anyone practicing Primal Therapy from merely reading his book/s. The reason if I remember rightly, was that pushing patients into feelings that they were not ready to feel was potentially dangerous, in that it could cause major confusion … without any resolution. I gather he also felt if such incidents were to happen; it would give the whole concept a bad name. Ironically, that may actually have precipitated very thing he wanted to avoid.

        This was a factor that also caused me some concern and I spent a great deal of time wondering (yeah! head tripping) how to fix this very paradox (delemma if you like). I came up with the idea for a do-it-yourself procedure, and wrote a book to that effect.

        I am pretty certain that both Art and people at his Center along with Barry and Gretchen at the Institute are fully aware of this ‘paradox’ (my phrasing).

        I personally feel certain (should we humans NOT blow up all life on the planet within the next 100 years) that there will be a re-read of Primal Theory and that from that will ensue the practice of a psychological therapy that will help most.

        As I see it (just me apparently), the problem is moving from the theory, to a practice, which entails a RE-LIVING of ones own feelings in early childhood and/or womb life. I don’t see the proclivity to “re-live” ones past as something new. I feel many did so in the past … BUT they mis-interpreted their experience and related it to what in their conscious mind, was aware of (for the most part, a religious/spiritual experiences) then promoted just that. Of hand I see Saul of Taurus, Thomas of Aquino, Buddha, et al. being cases in point.

        As patients and ex patient we each of us have our own feelings and reasoning about this very “paradox” (as I wish to call it). Of course I risk in stating this, to be considered lecturing (and maybe in a sense I am), but what is so terrible about lecturing. There are many that make a handsome living out of it. It’s not a dirty word … yet. Just that many don’t like it, for reasons only they know.


        • David says:

          Thank you Jack. I value your thoughts. And thank you so much for your book. The spinal cord injury I am healing from prevents me from sitting or holding any same body position for long periods, so my reading has been slow. But I think you are bang on. Primalling on my own I believe hanging on to a scene too long or crying away feelings or ranting them away was a defense a therapist would have interrupted.

          I have been reading Dr Janov, and Primalling in some form since 1972
          I have read all of those explanations.from Dr. Janov. And while they are valid I think there came a point they defeated the spread of Primal Therapy to have taken its place as the therapy of first choice. So from that point of view they don’t hold water. Arthur should have embarked on making Primal , ” IMPRINTED,” on the world’s mind. People remember the names Freud, Jung, et al, but only myself and a tiny group of post primal friends here in my Province have ever heard of Arthur Janov and Primal Therapy.
          When new Social Workers, Psychologists, Psychotherapists came on staff or joined the local Mental Health Clinic, i would endeavor to sneak Primal into the discussion. None had ever heard of Primal and it sounded too whacky to interest them to inquire further. A couple borrowed from my, “Primal,” library. It ended there. They had been brainwashed, ” head dedicated.”

          There was a time when a group of us met at the Psych Dep’t at St Anne’s Universitè every week to discuss Primal therapy and helping clinical understanding of patients in primal terms . The prof , a close primal friend, had gone to Montreal and then New York to do his own therapy. He taught a graded course on, ” Dr Arthur Janov ,Primal Therapy, Theory and Practice.”
          A French speaking college, students came from all over the French speaking world.

  93. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > no, I have seen normally until the age of 40.
    > in my first year of therapy I could still see well, but then in the following year got tbc in the brain which as a meningitis caused too much pressure for too long on the optical nerves.
    > result after three months of hospital was loss of about 95 percent of sight and loss of the hearing of my left ear.
    > don’t feel like going into more medical details on this blog.
    > it is a huge loss to cope with, but I try to make the best of my life nevertheless.
    > I think it helped me in my therapy actually as I was forced continuously to ‘look at myself’, no escape but to be confronted with my inner world all the time..
    > only on the second visit after losing most of my sight did the feelings about it break through, in their own howling way.
    > now i still miss basic things, looking at beautiful things like landscapes but also just absorbing all kinds of visual atmospheres of well, hidden corners and back alleys for example, every spot has its very own ‘feeling’, and I was a very visual person, drawing all the time for example.
    > now turned to singing and dancing for the last decade, and studying for the last couple of years.
    > M

    • David says:

      Ah FUCK !!!!, Margaret; You can’t tell but I have tears for you. It’s meaningless to say it, not even close to intelligent, but UNFAIR !!! Margaret, UNFAIR !!! Can’t imagine how you had the ability , the desire , to search out any , ” Old stuff.”
      I admire your resilience. I’d wallow in the corner and feel sorry myself to death.

  94. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > well,I think we all can do more than we suspect when there is little choice..
    > I know I am a fighter, that is true, to some extend, as I have kept going to the Institute, despite it being so much more scary as everything becomes a problem, finding my way, buying food, socializing, name it, even having fun is not easy..
    > but well, you have to go with the cards you get,and I had led a life full of risks before so carry part of the blame.
    > of course that lifestyle was again partly due to my old pain and search for relief, and partly to the ’70’s and their adventurous freaky lifestyle, which has also had is up sides with some unbelievable adventures, crazy as some of them were, there was also a lot of beauty there.
    > you have faced your own hardnesses as well, I can’t begin to imagine how it must be to lose a 4 year old daughter, and then to have to go on in a world that must suddenly have lost a lot of its appeal.
    > I htink that is the kind of sadness you always keep with you, that can only become part of you.
    > that is one useful , one of the many useful things Barry said to me: when I was talking about my struggle to get rid of my sadness, he asked me why I felt I needed to get rid of it, as it formed a part of me.
    > that helped me a lot, to come to terms with the idea almost as if it is something to be ashamed about, something that should be hidden or disguised.
    > of course sometimes that is the best option, some occasions demand you to function regardless of what the feeling is inside, but between friends it should be an acceptable feeling, to be sad.
    > that is why retreats are such a blessing, to be able to explore how it is, finally to feel safe to let it all come to the surface and express it, to just be able to be who you are and explore and experience it.
    > the last few days am feeling how a new ‘wave’ of doom and gloom is coming up, will have to make my way through it, fear, sadness, hopelessness, loneliness, all there..
    > luckily my dreams do a lot of work for me, processing a lot of fear, often sadness, and sometimes treating me with fabulous visual starry skies and landscapes, gorgeous buildings and even cloths and shopping malls and displays of pastries and icecream, smiley.
    > not to forget a fine and varied collection of dream lovers, haha!
    > and of course a lot of cats too in my dreams, and horses.
    > but actually in my daily life feel somewhat depressed and partly paralised with fear and gloom momentarily.
    > a bunch of setbacks together and a load of sadness to process.
    > have lost my husband in ’90, we were drug users on and off, but we also had some very nice years, actually the best of my life, just a couple of them, living a simple life with two dogs and some stray cats at a Spanish coast.
    > strange but fascinating world, this world..
    > kindness and generosity are values I higly esteem, don’t know why I say this, simply because it feels it matters a lot to me I guess.
    > don’t know why I feel teary right now.
    > m

    • David says:

      A know a 47 year old man, who I coached in baseball, who contracted bacterial meningitis when he was 14 and is paralyzed. He tells me I am the only one he talks to about his ongoing dreams of being ambulatory. He says it makes anyone else too uncomfortable. He says I am the only one who showed tears and anger over his injuries, didn’t act stoic or signal that he should , ” suck it up.” He says that my confiding in him that if it had happened to me my first wheel chair outing would have been over his cliff into the ocean, may well have prevented him from dong just that. He felt it and then didn’t have to act it out.
      We are lucky to have had the opportunity to learn about feelings and our right to them. That’s why Primal is the ultimate gift to me. I lament I will never achieve the level of recovery from neurosis I would like. But I am fortunate for what I have acquired. I can hurt, feel lonely, get pissed off, but I KNOW there’s nothing wrong WITH ME, I’m suffering for what was done to me, and I’m okay.

  95. David says:

    and, oh, you speak of dreams; Margaret; I rarely remember dreams but my body pillow is terrified of me…hah
    I demand that this blog also be a pace for silliness, fraught with our ridiculous parts. I have an elderly e pal, a retired Methodist minister who sends me delightful smutty jokes and cartoons; she is 81. Her lament is having forgone that hillarious part of herself to maintain an image.

    • jackwaddington says:

      David: I agree that this blog might serve a great therapeutic service if the was more silliness. Isn’t that the way we were all meant to be? I remember being told so many times that I was silly and idiotic and stupid when I was a kid and it never occurred to me that it was normal to be that way.

      Out there, in the world at large, we are all pretending to be so fucking sensible, intelligent, good and righteous. but looking around, I feel I am the only one that is that way.

      As my granny once said to me once, ” The’re aw a bit peculiar … except me and thee … and tha can be a bit funny ut times”. “What!! me granny”, I replied. “Ay, thee”. It didn’t bother me, if I remember rightly cus I knew she really loved me … but it wasn’t until I started attending retreats that I saw she was absolutely right. So in order to become the real me, which I gathered was the purpose of this therapy, I started to be silly and stupid and idiotic. Wow! what a thrill it all was. Now I realized I had gotten a handle on what Art was talking about when he wrote that it was all about becoming the REAL person I am,

      Isn’t that the paradox? I think that I am so fucking righteous. and that it everyone else that is so ‘fucked up’

      For what time I’ve got left, I’m convinced that all I need to be is that fucked-up person that I was forever hearing that I was. Now I beginning to believe it.


  96. David says:

    Patrick, whar ‘r’ ye ? y’alright, sir ???
    This doesn’t come up to a Mike story. Too short on length and the funny..
    After Frank bought the ” Cab -over,” moving truck, we were barely on the 405 headed North I think. Frank had gassed up and had the guy check the engine oil, and maybe top it up. Anyhow, we’re behind a semi hauling a tandem load of large medium crush rock. A couple of vehicles ahead a Jeep Grand Cherokee did what they are best known for, spontaneously going into a lateral roll over. Buddy hauling the crush rock puts on the binders, maybe spilling some of his load,??? Frank brakes, and suddenly we’re looking at the pavement; me laying against the dash; no seat belts in the old truck. Buddy at the garage had forgotten to latch the cab locks after checking the fluids….. I may have learned it wasn’t smart to laugh out loud at everything by then….

    I remember another time at that crazy intersection, somewhere along Olympic maybe. It was like a spoked wheel, there were so many converging lanes that intersected. A woman came through. on a red, driving a Honda coupe, and our truck drove right over the boot on her car. I was fucking freaked out. Out of the truck to check on her. Frank was super cool,”Fucking stupid cow,” may closely approximate his response. I was horrified. In Canada if someone runs over me, I say sorry I made you run me over mate. If I run over someone, I say super, super, super sorry, I should have. known you were going to fall out of that tree in front of me. MY BAD… well we’re almost that bad, by myth anyhow.

    Why is a myth referring to a rural tale still called an urban myth ??

    • Patrick says:

      David – taking a break……………… does not feel good being ‘poked’ all the time…………….and I WILL be maybe even for this………………….hope he puts his ‘poker’ somewhere else…………………….but the ONLY way for me to avoid being ‘stabbed’ is to keep away………………..maybe ANOTHER reason I disagree with vaccines………………..I don’t like being poked/stabbed………………as a child/infant being poked/stabbed is no ‘sport’ even if it has become so for certain switched off members of the primal ‘upper class’ the one who are ‘allowed’ head trips…………….also another reason I don’t like Margaret stabbing and poking her defenseless little kitty cats………………………………..

      • jackwaddington says:

        I wonder if it occurred to you that most people don’t like a lot of things that you have had the habit of doing on this blog? I suppose it’s ok for you to ‘blow off’ at other’s, but oh no! “don’t do things to me that I don’t like” . Perhaps you aren’t even aware that it is all “Cause and Effect”. How dumb can that be?. Oh I forgot you love to do ‘your’ thing and then assume that others will be “EVER SO FORGIVING” … and that is what you’ve assumed Primal Therapy is all about.

        You use any principle that comes to mind to JUSTIFY your action … but little realize that you cause the ensuing effects. Now you state you don’t like it, but even justify it all through being JABBED and connect that to vaccination. Is that way less cruel than your brother breeding “defenseless’ sheep to be slaughtered … against their will Try looking into yourself; being just a little more introspective. You might find it causes you a little less misery.

        And yes I have no doubt I will be asked to ‘practice what I preach’ or even being at your throat. Incidentally no-one banned “head tripping”, but it handy when I know that’s what’s I’m doing.

        However, I’m REAL happy to see you back. More fun 🙂 . Not about to put my poker down … yet


      • David says:

        my screen is a bit blurry, ” you did write, ” p o k er,” right. I am glad to hear how that makes you feel.. I am sincere, and no primal pun intended. I have learned never to 2nd guess. Yeah it’s gotta be shit to hear that you’re hated and will never reach a truce. It would be easier if you didn’t care. Or, through my lens of course. I know how too much of such messages make me feel.
        You’ve been decent to me.

  97. Margaret says:

    > the last couple of days I felt kind of down, but also with a strong flavour of fear. so ‘gloom and doom’, let’s say, covers it quite well.
    > at night really freaky scary nightmares about being attacked, almost killed, persecuted, having to fight back, or hide, run, and try to protect cat and on one occasion a little girl as well..
    > all socializing feels threatening, more than it already does to me usually in that state..
    > but this morning picked up the statistics once more, and they made me feel after an hour of two I was gradually regaining some control..
    > then my brother came by and we sorted out some stuff that needed to be done on my place, went to a store to look at materials and managed to make a decision.
    > told him too I’d rather stay home than go along to our mom, had called her already and told her about my cold. I had spoken to her cleaning lady, and was very reassured she told me she would keep coming weekly to my mom, despite my mom telling her it was not necessary and she could come every fourtnight or even every month..
    > she deals with that ever so nicely, just nods and agrees with our mom, and instead of saying ‘I’llo do this next week’, she says ‘I’ll do this the next time’.
    > she gives my mom a call the evening before she goes there, (weekly!), and my mom does not know anymore it is only a week ago..
    > this is for me and my brother a big reassurance, and we are very grateful the cleaning lady is so nice and kinkly flexible.
    > our mom can use that help really well, as her memory fails more and more, in the evening she does not know anymore what she has done during the day, even if it was being out all day with her boyfriend.
    > of course she finds that distressing and sad and scary..
    > but she copes quite well lately, and we are happy we manage to find ways to allow her to stay in the house she lived in for almost 55 years now.
    > then I managed too to get through to my own social assistance and get them to send me a one time thorough cleaning team, two persons for an entire morning, next week.
    > I will start gathering stuff I should get rid of now, old software wrappings you need to keep for the first couple of years, but they end up piling up and gathering dust, for example.
    > so a ‘clean hurricane’ will go through the appartment and they are also warned everything should be put back exactly on the same spot again, otherwise I have to search and search if I want to find somehting not being able to spot it visually..
    > so well, getting things in action makes me feel better already, a bit anyway, though of course I know the old feelings of fear keep lurking and won’t go away untill I have faced the demons..
    > fear is such a hard feeling to process, it is so paralising and compelling me to want to stay home in my ‘relatively’ safe shell which of course is not good if it goes on for too long.
    > but still, I think I manage to find a balance more or less, to keep my life on the move..with a little help from my friends..
    > and family..
    > M

    • Larry says:

      I know about paralysing fear and wanting to stay home. I fear that when I retire, I’ll want to stay home all the time and will have to be constantly battling my fear and making myself get out or I won’t have much of a life. Already, since being alone and having to battle my insecurities alone, my life is diminished.

      Last weekend was a long weekend, Monday being a holiday here. I cried a lot about how alone I am. Thank goodness I did get out and go with some acquaintances to a dinner fundraiser for Nepal, and the next evening went to dinner with 25 people from a singles group…followed by my brief presence at a dance with 5 of them. An acquaintance and I had planned to see the movie Ex Machina on Sunday but she had to change the plan to Monday. Then on Monday she was wrestling a cold, so I went to the movie alone, to an almost empty theatre.

      I’m glad I was able to make myself get out and spend time with these casual acquaintances, because outside of them I was alone all long weekend. All the long weekend I cried a lot about my aloneness in the present and more importantly aloneness that pervades my life deep into my past when because there was no one there I unconsciously gave up hope and imprinted onto the behaviour track that cursed me to be always alone. It’s very hard to change that track and be confronted with the truth of how alone I was and why.

  98. David says:

    I hear and share your thoughts on fear. Maggie. I say when asked about dying I don’t fear death
    but I don’t want to die in fear; if that makes sense.

    Arms about you for a while
    Arms about you, there my child
    Naught will harm you
    I will keep
    Arms about you
    Go to sleep

    I wrote lullabies for my kids and grandkids and ggk’s, this for Sandra, the middle one; oh the poor middle ones…

  99. Larry says:

    I just read an interesting magazine article by two authors of a new book on meditation and mindfulness. Here are some excerpts that capture the essence of the article.

    “Meditation and mindfulness have a dark side that should not be ignored, say psychologist Miquel Farias and Catherine Wikholm” in their new book The Buddha Pill: Can meditation change you?”

    “Twitching, trembling, panic, disorientation, hallucinations, terror, depression, mania and psychotic breakdown – these are some of the reported effects of meditation.”

    “But happiness and de-stressing were not what meditation techniques, with their Buddhist and Hindu roots, were originally developed for. The purpose of meditation was much more radical: to challenge and rupture the idea of who you are, shaking one’s sense of self to the core so you realise there is “nothing there” (Buddhism) or no real differentiation between you and the rest of the universe (Hinduism). So perhaps it is not so surprising that these practices have downsides.”

    “…we realised that media report were heavily biased: findings of moderate positive effects were inflated, whereas non-significant and negative findings went unreported.”

    “Another study found that practising mindfulness for 20 minutes a day resulted in higher levels of biological stress, as measured by the hormone cortisol (despite lower reported levels of subjective stress) than for those in the non-meditation group.”

    “Torkel Brekke of the University of Oslo in Norway, who edited a book on Buddhism and violence, describes Buddhist texts that explain how individuals who have become enlightened through meditative practice may act amorally if their actions are undertaken in a detached state of mind. Rather than being exceptional, the association between meditation and detached killing became the norm in Japan during the second world war. The historian and Zen priest Brian Victoria writes how the training of Japanese soldiers included the use of meditation techniques to ensure that the soldier lost his sense of self and “became” the very order he received.”

    “Meditating can produce powerful effects on the mind, but not all of these are beneficial or peace-generating.”

    “Despite popular opinion, meditation is not a panacea. The truth is that most of us, including scientists, have beliefs about meditation that are often naive, and have turned a blind eye to its potential dark side. We need to change this.”

    • Patrick says:

      Larry – yes that is an interesting article.I think the main point is correct, that a lot of the practices have been sort of bastardized in the West nowadays. Like ‘mindfulness’ though in theory makes sense and I would even say I ‘practice’ it here and there it apparently has become a kind of ‘program’ in Silicon Valley. Like at Googe you get mandatory breaks to practice ‘mindfulness’. Also like the Japanese army these companies are promoting this for THEIR benefit…………….more focused and rested employees hence more ‘productivity’ they hope………………..

      I would be a bit show in dismissing it all though…………………..and the kinds of criticisms here of meditation, well OTHER criticisms could be made of ‘primal’ like regardless how how wonderful the ‘theory’ is and sounds the actual ‘practice’ is often quite something else…………..

      • Larry says:

        I see meditation and mindfulness as a defense which serves to try to keep your thoughts on a preferred track and away from disturbing feelings and reality. I also see it as similar to a drug the purpose of which is to deal with symptoms. Like any defense or drug I feel meditation has its use, but the ideal is to a become a whole, healthy, feeling human being no longer needing the defense or drug.

        • Patrick says:

          Larry – there is some truth in what you say. But the exact same thing could and should be said about primal…………………” keep your thoughts on a preferred track” even it is ‘painful’ it is for some reason ‘preferred’……………I have done this a lot a Catholic upbringing led me to ‘pain’ and ‘suffering’ as a way out or a solution to life’s problems………………turns out not to be so true after all. I don’t care for this wholesale putting down of New Age type things………………..Janov did that a lot still does yet his solution seems not to have worked any better for the most part. Often I pick up some New Age type magazine just at random it seems often to have more to say to me than primal…………………that kind of primal exclusivity just seems really unhelpful and the ‘results’ seem to match that situation. “Results” to me are important including for Margaret and her cat. Whatever her ‘intentions’ what are the ‘results. Her blast at me below makes me feel quite unmoved – I feel SHE needs to go back to the drawing board.

          • jackwaddington says:

            “Larry – there is some truth in what you say. But the exact same thing could and should be said about primal…………………”
            What’s the “could and should” you are referring to and by what theory of yours???? Geeze !!!! do you think all this up while standing upright?????

            If you are able (which I somewhat doubt) write us a little thesis about what you feel went WRONG” with the practice of Primal Therapy. It’s one thing to say “it went way off track”, but yet another to give your reasoning as to how and/or why.

            The only thing, I feel, is driving your thinking is that since you FAILED to get it. It’s not credible. How could some great thinker, like yourself, be so utterly ’round the bend???’

            Tell us once and for all; what went wrong with the PRACTICE of Primal Therapy. That could …. in the annals of Gretchen, Barry B and Arthur Janov be some great piece of enlightenment … even perhaps help the rest of us ‘conventional thinkers’ to put our minds to rest. 🙂


            • Patrick says:

              I MIGHT one day try to write all this down……………….for sure there is a good story there though I am not sure I am the one to tell it. I am limited, lazy and easily distracted but certain thing I am fairly sure of…………….but it is a big story and involves many disciplines if you want to get serious about it. But my very short version for now is primal was a brilliant stab in the dark but it didn’t go so well from there. Here I don’t think is the right place because there is a lot of ‘piling on’ people’s own insecurities. The idea of FAILURE scares people me too………………but I have had to face it………….I failed and I hold myself forward as an example of mostly failure on a mass level with primal…………….failure is the coin of the realm but people are busy NOT feeling that……………since I faced that I ‘failed’ in conventional primal terms I find myself getting better and seeing it in a new way…………………but you will have to wait……………..

          • Larry says:

            It feels kind of pointless to react to you Patrick because your manner of thinking is more random and defensive rather than leading anywhere.

            Of course the whole point of primal therapy is to help a person to to think about and understand and see how they defend against their pain, to ultimately open up to their pain and feel it. That’s what most of us on this blog try to achieve. If you don’t want to that’s fine, but if your are too afraid to let go of your defenses, if you consistently refuse to acknowledge or even look at them, if you’ve never acted in ways that would allow your defenses to crumble and never allowed yourself to experience resolution through the therapeutic process, then you’ve never experienced the therapy. By criticising primal therapy when you’ve never allowed yourself to experience it and understand it, you are just defending against actually doing it. That’s OK. You can defend all you need to, but most of us on this blog are on a very different path.

            Why you are on this blog is a mystery to me, and all I can think is that you are looking for a way to get emotional resolution without feeling your pain. You won’t find that here. The other reason I think you come here is because it’s the only place you can discharge some of your anger and frustration about your life, which you blame the therapy for, and we are the only ones who listen to you.

          • David says:

            One more thing. Re: who you like best on the blog; I wish you liked me best. I’ve always wanted that status with a pal.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: Interesting. I must say I have always had some doubts about certain forms of meditation especial when Transcendental Meditation (TM) was all the rage.


    • Larry says:

      What I find interesting about the article is that psychologists are finally looking deeper and beyond the naive idealistic notion that meditation is the path to peace and enlightenment, that in fact it detracts a person from dealing with their reality and worse can have negative consequences or side effects, just like any defense or drug.

      • Phil says:

        I have found that using a kind of meditative state can work to access painful feelings.This method seems to lead to skipping later childhood feelings in favor of early ones, so I don’t do that anymore. Better to be talking to someone about what’s going on or even by myself rather than the meditative technique.Maybe not the kind of meditation they are talking about in the article.Phil Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 16:12:45 +0000 To:

        • Larry says:

          What you experienced with meditation doesn’t appear to be surprising, Phil. Here is more from the article:

          “Why would meditation make you feel more stressed? There are various reasons. Trying to focus your awareness on what you are feeling and thinking can be a demanding cognitive exercise. Another reason that is less well known is that when you meditate “the scum rises to the surface”. These are the words of Swami Ambikananda Saraswati, a charismatic meditation teacher and translator of Hindu sacred texts who we interviewed for our book. She confided that most meditation teachers know about this, but don’t like to discuss the intrusive thoughts and feelings–such as sexual, sad, fearful or violent ones–that may arise rather abruptly when you meditate.”

          • David says:

            Meditation employed to get me out of my head, I concluded was like allowing the feeling not thought, to dominate; consistent with Primal Therapy theory as I understand that aspect.. Interestingly I observed people with no defenses, the psychotic, the addict ,respond the most dramatically when their external crutches were removed. I’m not advocating that. I have no advice on how to do Primal. But I’ll never be deterred from believing it’s the one therapy that has the potential to heal neurosis.
            I agreed to sit in on a Zen Psychotherapy group last fall. It was productive for me because it was so fucked up, all the mystical religiosity, that it brought up old rage and anger, to let loose when a safe distance away from those poor sad folks, being coached to avoid , ” reharming,” themselves by not feeling, rather giving it up to their gods, their dead, their pets, their plants, waiting on divine intervention to carry their load. People in deadly pain reassuring themselves and each other they were making progress.
            Even feeling I am failing is better than than for me.

        • David says:

          I’d run very fast in the other direction from any opinion held by any of the conventional head doctors. If emptying my mind of intentional thinking is meditation I work on that. Following the breath for me reduces my brain clutter to one none thing.

    • David says: