Gretchen: I was under the impression that there would be a new blog article. Seemingly not just a way, I presume to take us back to number one (1) instead of 795.
It’s funny what I ‘accuse’ the likes of Leslie of (cutting me off) I now sort wish I COULD do that with the likes of Jack. That I was ‘strong’ enough and sober enough.
To be honest I do find myself mellowing towards the Grand Old Man and I think hey be cool give him a chance, he is not so bad blah blah blah……………….but I have to say………….well maybe put it this way he would be a terrible therapist. Pointing out the obvious, shoving stuff back in your (mine actually) face endless repeating of his ‘theories’ judge mentality up the ying yang as in ‘you did better this time’ like some dude ‘grading my papers’ all the time, inability to pick to listen or pick out any subtle shifts. Now I understand he does not did ever really ‘want’ to be a therapist but maybe he should quit PLAYING one then!. I am not a therapist I just PLAY one on an obscure blog that about 10 people ‘listen’ to. I gives me (him actually) the feeling someone is listening and can ‘pontificate’ all day and have the illusion of importance. Pontificate is an interesting word from the Pontiff the Pope. Pope Jack The Second how would that sound? Not so bad huh?
Pope Jack assumed the throne around 2010 and his reign was undistinguished and marked by rigid adherence to ideology. Critics even well meaning Irish ones were slapped down un-ceremoniously. He seemed un-interested in the details of the Faith and also un-interested in the welfare of his flock. All that mattered to him it seems was religious orthodoxy and no technique was off limits in enforcing this orthodoxy. As he got older he seemed to get even more rigid and lots of people around the Court assumed he had lapsed into a kind of dementia. Most of them ignored him and left him alone except for a very troublesome Irish Cleric called Patrick the Cruel who would not give up criticizing him. There was another one called “Ultimate Superstar Guru the First” who was also somewhat of a critic but mostly keep his peace. As the gap between his orthodoxy and the troubles of his flock grew he did not seem to care. Any ‘evidence’ that would be taken by the average person as a ‘problem’ in the Faith he just saw as more ‘proof’.
We are talking about him as if it was the past but Pope Jack STILL rules at least in the Kingdom of his own MInd.
Patrick plays the role of “patient” and Jack is “therapist”. The audience is not always getting it; still needs some work. And the audience does not seem to want to participate. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
I was listening to Obama’s talk at the WH correspondents dinner. He said that Ted Cruz (that has nothing to do with Dr Kruse) compared himself to Galileo because he does not believe in global warming. In other words Cruz sees himself as such an ‘out of the box thinker’ that he is that cool.
And then hmm…. I thought Jack compared himself (he did!) on the blurb of his’ book’ to Galileo AND Copernicus! (a twofer lol).
Obama said actually that’s not right because Galileo became famous for showing the Sun did not go around the Earth but the Earth went round the Sun but Cruz is famous for believing the whole World revolves around him. And I thought hmmm ANOTHER similarity to Pope Jack.
I am just having ‘fun’ here so before anyone freaks out and ‘ignores’ me some more you are all free to mock Patrick the Cruel as he has been known as in some circles. Patrick disputes that but he would being ‘Cruel’
BTW I thought Obama would make an excellent stand up comedian better at it than his ‘job’. Something I also thought about Barry B.
Speaking of what the World revolves round. Years ago I saw this comedian Andy Dick (yes that’s his name) say his whole act could be boiled down to “I am the piece of shit the World revolves around”……………I thought there was something ‘profound’ in that. Could I relate? I am afraid yes a little bit at least………………
> back to statistics and also writing an article about my way of working as asked for by a small university magazine..
>
> have had to take some sad and difficult decisions lately but feel deeply they were right.
> Patricks representation of the story of my
> e and my cat is even factually wrong, but hey, he is probably the only one to believe in his own version.
>
> also his memory of the things he said seems very different than the reality but well, no comment..
>
> it is true I have criticized his behaviour at several occasions, but always with the underlying desire to help him and never to just be hurtful for the sake of it.
>
> it is good sometimes he seems to get glimpses of his own act outs and what is not right about them, but I fear there still is a long way to go, and it will be all too easy to relapse I am afraid.
>
> have to let go, none of my business, have to go my own way.
> M
Larry: Yes, you are right, I should be doing that.
Phil: I thought it was inertesting the way YOU put it
U superstar G: Thanks for reposting Larry’s post as yes, I did miss it
Patrick:
Maybe now that Larry has said it, others will follow. I will read them all.
For myself: Larry was not the first to tell me that … I got just that from not only my mother and father but from my siblings, and other kids at school. I will reflect (I promise) on all that was written.
The Pope cannot be seen as a total hypocrite!. Appearances are important and though nothing will change or is even planned to change it is important not to give bad example to the flock. They are mostly devout and true believers………….but still even they sometimes open their eyes and maybe would have some doubts. But a renewed expression of the Faith should work for now. In the long term who knows but it is important at the moment that the Pope is seen as devout.
I am happily nontheist, but if Francis could kick over all the traces as he has done the trappings, that Dude would have a wife, ok nod birth control, marry gays, ordaine women, take on social atrocities and govts and continue to commit his ultimate sin, loving people of all colors, and content of wallets, or lack thereof. He’d fire all of those sociopath red hats and invite the dali llama to be his spiritual partner. Edward Snowden would be a consultant on social morality. He’d evolve into buddhism, atheism or, nontheism. I think he’s da bomb !!! He has to be on the political assassination list. Can’t hurt that dude too much on a blog or quackwatch, although the republicans are trying.
In the 70’s we had a lot of clergy come for therapy. All RC clergy had been raped in seminary by the old Priests. They left the church, married; after therapy. We didn’t have any RC cleric pedophiles, I know it’s clear they are legion however; but we did have some protestant cleric offenders, sexual opportunists, family and spousal abusers.
But they were all too common in Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Guides, too. The etiology of that whole thing should be publicized. Secrecy never healed anything.
Come to think of it I think that’s a premise of Primal.
I was ‘thinking; (a bad habit I have but I promise I will reflect on it and I can even already promise to do better, being ‘in my head’ has been deemed by the Pope a cardinal sin so I will ‘improve’ promise)……….anyway all this talk actually only mine about Popes, the Faith, the flock and so on got me ‘thinking’ (sorry about that I have not purged myself completely but I will adhere to the Pope’s latest penance , coming soon I am sure) anyway where was I…………oh yeah like just doing a survey in my own mind here it seems all the people here are Catholic/Christian whatever you want to call it………………like people who are set up to be ‘true believers’ kind of naive, well meaning a bit dopey, hooked on suffering and their own sins, told that thinking sad thoughts is somehow a gateway to Heaven………. but this whole place is founded run and organized by Jews. And I ‘thought’ (sorry again about that) that’s interesting……………..is there something to that and I think (sorry again) yeah there probably is.
But then I ‘thought’ (my bad) Tom V is an exception he is Jewish……………but actually I think Tom was really brought up and raised as a “Communist” and those guys are as bad if not worse than Catholics in terms of ‘true belief’.So I would say even Tom ‘qualifies’ the Communist part wins out there.
Of course Jack is a bit of a conundrum then, he is not Jewish but he acts like ‘authority’ here………..but first off he only ‘acts’ he ‘plays’ expert/therapist whatever……………..the rulers actually have nothing to do with him, have no connection and have a ‘hands off’ approach to all his works including his ‘books’. In that way he is what used to be called in politics a ‘useful idiot’………….someone who does someone else’s dirty work, someone who is loyal but does not know what he is ‘loyal’ to, someone who can be counted on to betray his own class and do the work of others who have their own agenda.
Guru – what do you think about my ‘comedy’ efforts? Do you think I might have a second act as some kind of Hollywood script writer…………..now be honest……………
Guru, A comedy routine; are you laughing or not, no neutral here. I have been laughing, I do think it’s got possibilities. But needs to be tried in front of a live audience. Phil
Phil: the comedy routine has been on-going on for almost 30 years. It was called “Gentle Ginat Moving and Storage Compny”
I am delighted (somewhat) it makes you laugh. that’s way better than being sad and crying. (that’s not meant to be sarcastic) … unless you perceive it that way … in which case I can nothing about it.
I am all for injecting fun into the blog (it is another or our human feelings), but also I am not averse to anger either.
I am inclined to be a little wary of what I consider to be “lovey dovey” for it’s own sake. But then that is just MY feeling/reasoning.
One other factor I thought to mention was that I am reminded daily, from My Jimbo that I have an ugly side to me. His pet phrases are:- Oh! for fuck’s sake shut up” another is “You don’t understand” and a third is, and perhaps the most telling is:- “You’re on your ‘hoby horse’ … AGAIN. So I am kept aware of my short-comings and … Patrick does put the icing on the cake.
Jack, That is a long running routine you have had with Patrick.You guys must have had a lot of fun at Gentle Giant.I had no involvement with that, of course, and haven’treally been so much involved or targeted here.So I don’t have to take It all seriously. I suppose that isn’tpossible for you.Phil
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:25:10 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: The Gentle Giant story is a sort of comedy of errors … on both our parts; I suppose. The REAL comedy didn’t actually involve me, but it was a standing joke with almost all members of the company with two exceptions, they being the two (P & S) involved.
The only thing I insisted upon from the very moment of Patrick’s entry onto this blog was:- I know Patrick far better than anyone else on this blog (25 years) Of course, it also applied, he also knew me equally well.
I met Patrick way before he created Gentle Giant; (with his partner), and in those early days we worked together on several moving jobs. At that time I found him to be fun to work with, and laughed a lot at his beef about Michael Holden becoming a “Jesus freak”.
I was in-on the very beginnings of the company and introduce him and his partner, to computing in the business and lent them a computer. However I was fired within a couple of weeks and on being fired I walked over; unplugged my computer and took it away. Patrick immediately yelled out “Oh no! … we want the computer” … and within minutes I was re-instated. Therein is where the ‘comedy of errors’ started.
Enough for now; unless there is a general interest in the story from my perspective … which I strongly doubt.
Oh Guru – you are such a fence sitter! No need to afraid even though I can be known as Patrick the Cruel I don’t bite. (one time I told a friend of mine like my Dad they used to say about him “his bark was worse than his bite” and she replied ‘yes but who wants to be barked at all day. I thought that was pretty funny too) But whatever I know I could never be as funny as you so I am just doing my best here. Your humor is so good in short ‘bites’ especcially do you think I might have possibilities for some kind of long form drama maybe it could be classed as a tragi-comedy with emphasis on the tragedy part
> just a general observation to celebrate finally getting the comments mailed from the blog..
> isn’t there a basic contradiction in promoting paleo on a cruise ship?
> sailing, rowing, yes, but pointlessly burning tons and tons of fuel to go from a to b to c and back to a, or even having to fly back, does not seem very natural or ecological really.
> even our retreats seem more paleo with their locally raised organic food from the gardens and orchards, but well, as I said, just a passing observation that occurred to me.
> M
Margaret – you are totally right and well spotted! I HAVE sort of mentioned that to Dr K. (insiders get to call him that lol)) actually but I did not dwell on the point. I thought I was already such a ‘nay sayer’ at the retreats I did not want to repeat my (failed) history.
But sadly what you point out is like a central contra-diction of modern life to do ANYTHING it seems is actually bad for the environment, not actually anything but you get the drift. Since you mention retreats that is also an example and I NEVER even mentioned that one though I was aware of it. I tried to keep my ‘objections’ on point lol
I like the way you ‘bounce back’ you are not a wilting violet or a shrinking tulip or a fading rose or whatever you want to call ‘primal people’ who are all for exploration until it just gets a teeny weeny bit uncomfortable…………………and then poof there gone…………………
Fiona – I address you to see how alert you are or if you actually read…………..well really kidding there but I know you have a problem scrolling down and it get’s worse as the thread get’s longer and longer.
Well a good ‘short cut’ (and it was Ultimate Guru pointed this out to me when the comments were getting all mixed up date wise I thank him for that) is to go on the right side of the page to “Recent Comments” and click the top one or even any on them but that will instantly take you to the bottom of the page or close to it.. Do NOT click “Recent Posts” Recent Comments just so there is no confusion.
This might make your ‘job’ just a small bit easier as I know scrolling down all the time can be a real pain in the a.. and since Margaret is such a voluminous writer I can imagine it could to be a lot of work. Hope that might help.
I am reading this fascinating book about the diamond industry “Glitter and Greed” by Janine Roberts and I start to see quite a few similarities to the strategy of De Beers and Janov. Might sound a bit out-landish but I really think there is some similarity there…………………I have to think carefully how to present this without outraging too many more people………………
Sins………………………………………………………………Act outs
Confession……………………………………………………Sessions
Salvation through suffering……………………………Feel the Pain
Church………………………………………………………..Groups
Retreats………………………………………………………Retreats
There are more but of a kind of ‘meta-physical’ nature that is very personal and hard to explain.
Just thought I might (for the fun of it, or hell of it, whichever takes your fancy) on the interpretation you offered re- your five (5) points:-.
Sins………………………………………………………………Act outs
Confession……………………………………………………Sessions
Salvation through suffering……………………………Feel the Pain
Church………………………………………………………..Groups
Retreats………………………………………………………Retreats
=======================
Act-out…………………………………………………………..against our NATURE and hence our REAL health … a bummer
Sessions………………………………………………………..getting to the real point of whats happening inside ourselves … leave confession to the Cat-ho-lic church
Salvation (other than the S Army………………………….Feel the feeling and ‘viola’ the pain evaporates
Groups…………………………………………………………..get to say your “party piece” … something the church never did allow!!!
Retreats………………………………………………………..’time-out’ from the daily grind of life. rather than running away (retreating) from the retreat site for a couple of days.
This should be called the Four Amigo’s Show. It gets a bit boring for someone who knows none of you. I left therapy in 1987. The old , ” Primal Bulletin Board,” was much more interesting and featured a larger cast. I don’t know if the call and response format is good natured satire between friends or barbed rants between people stuck in their old shit for 25 years. Either way, if you are all entertained then that’s all the site is accomplishing; from my point of view. Barry, bring back the Primal Newsletter. David H; Nova Scotia
David H: If you’re in for some fun from time to time, and sometimes sad stories that might trigger your own, and then sometimes things that ‘piss you off’; then you’re in the right place. If it worries you that there seems to be no progress then just say what you consider propgress to be.
Otherwise let us know what’s happening in your life … if you care to.
Thanks for the tutorial, Jack. I’m so grateful to have that explained for me. Anything can be defended.. Art had a word for that. I’m enormously aquainted with the Primal Process Jack. But this has been a limited cast hogging the lines for years now on this sit com. There’s progress and there’s stuck.
I’m pissed off that Fred Grey was murdered; that Jesus Heurta was murdered, unless he was Houdini. That’s not primal pain triggering anything; that’s my humanity.
David H: I am sorry that you saw my response as a tutorial. Most new commenters are welcomed, but, as I read you, (though perhps I was misreading you, highly likely), I felt you were seeing most of us to be stuck … without progress. That is why I asked what you considered progress to be. Of course, most of us read at least one of the books of Art Janov and got a sence of what it was all about.
I personally see the purpose of the blog as a means for respondents to state what is going on with themselves and to express in the own way how they feel. That simple by my reckoning. I was hoping that I was being encpouraging but …. who knows!!!!
It’s a “free” country as they say even if it is not! (I just heard on the radio 3 states either have made it illegal or are planning to make it illegal to take pictures of cops doing their ‘work’ – hello Police State. This is/was the ONLY thing to make them change their ways) so their is nothing stopping you changing the script of the sit com if you have a better one. Or adding your bit.
And while I would agree with you there is a strong element of ‘being stuck’ here I feel that too………….there is something about that judge mentality too that reeks of Art. (I also reek of Art but it is a ‘smell’ I am trying to shed with ‘mixed’ results)
I did it by accident a few days ago but I like making ‘judgementality’ into two words like that it is usually uses as one I think but my making it two it brings out a slightly different meaning………………the mentality of a judge
Vincent Bugliosi once said people usually have a high opinion of a judge but Bugliosi pointed out a judge is a combination of a lawyer and a politician. Separatatly people typically do not have a high opinion of either one but combined they do. A kind of alchemy there that keeps people ‘fooled’……………………
I’m embarrassed by this reptilian response now, Jack Just my empty vitriole because I cannot stand any thing that I interpret as calling me stupid, making sport of me or smacking of very serious issues being trivialized. Both were translated through my own pain filter. Shit this is opening that whole Primaldora’s Box again. A whole lot different between thinking about Primal and feeling. I had been confusing the two again. Back in my head between the occassional feelings. Also I know I mostly cry away feelings as a safety valve more than feeling them.
I have beeen flooded with insights over the past few days. Thanks for the E book. Will read it this week and reply to you.
David, Welcome to the blog! It’s good to have more contributors here otherwise the discussion can get stuck in a pattern. It might or might not indicate people stuck on a personal level. I guess the entertainment level was enough to get you to comment. You say you left therapy in 1987. Do you still work at it on your own? Phil
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 00:38:59 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Most people here do not have pseudonyms so that’s not a problem. Though “Ultimate Superstar Guru” is getting CLOSE I have to admit. The only other one that comes to mind is ‘Otto’ or “Elephant Man’ or whatever he is calling himself this week.
dvddoodle99 LOOKS like a pseudonym and SOUNDS like a pseudonym and you know what they say about something that looks and sounds like a (duck) it usually IS.But it’s true dvddoodle99 does not not WALK like a pseudonym but maybe you can explain more………….
My stock, though genuine, response to friends, colleagues, or patients, asking my opinion,
a la, “(tell me what to do..”??? is that their brain is as good or better than mine at figuring stuff out; and you know the why of all that, Patrick.
Oddly avoiding taking credit for my own thoughts I was a master at assigning them to the notorious, ” I read, I hear, or tha omnipresent, ” they.”
I liked the format of the Primal Newsletter; and was also hoping to read what’s new in therapy thinking, how it has evolved.
My best male friend, and mentor, wrote Art a scathing letter after I loaned him my , latest, ” NEW Primal Scream,” accusing him of , “…strangling Primal into relative obscurity.” His issue is that Arthur never encouraged it to go mainstream, that he should have opened training centres for therapists across the US and Canada, instead of fostering the policy of cloistering it to so few venues.
Now I understand the quality control concerns.
He believes however that, in terms of therapists, ” …., the cream would have risen to the top, the chafe to the bottom, the misfits weeded out and this valuable gift to mankind ubiquitously available.”
I’m on a rant now, aren’t I ? Not many folks to talk Primal with on the east coast of Canada.
It was my little girl’s pet name for me. There were 98 doodles before me when I registered my mail account. Never added a user name to my profile; it’s David.
> David,
> the way you show up here makes me feel you carry a lot of anger..
>
> there are better ways to introduce yourself into a new group of people than popping up with a number of well, accusations?
>
> if we are that boring, nothing keeps you from coming up with what inteerests you or say what you would rather hear about.
>
> Jack invited you in his own way to tell us something about yourself.
>
> if you do not want to do so it is hard to pay any attention to your criticisms kind of ‘the best sailors are standing on the shore’..
>
> so, what would you like to read about, or what would you like us to ask you?
> M
Everyday, Phil, since 6 months after reading Arthur’s 1st Prmal Scream. Occassionally those out of nowhere little catch my breath feelings and the oh, wow, insights. No wailing and gnashing of teeth in the primal box; often , not a single tear. The feelings that weren’t deliberatly pursued, the ones that just pop up from that old program running in the background.
Hard not to let the ,” real world,” time demands interfere with feeling something completely; and so the repeats. But much better than not being able to feel.
“Occassionally those out of nowhere little catch my breath feelings and the oh, wow, insights. No wailing and gnashing of teeth in the primal box; often , not a single tear. ”
I like that. I was thinking (my bad again) if there is ONE ‘change’ or ‘improvement’ on primal as written down so far is to maybe get away as much as possible from the idea of therapy being identified with sessions, groups, retreats etc. The way I see it now therapy ‘happens’ or not every second of every day. To ‘wait’ for sessions and so on to me is a fatal mistake.
I am not saying others including therapists have not said stuff like that.but I do feel Art Janov has always to even to this day sort of implies he has some ‘magic technique’ that is exclusive to him and primal therapy. He does not !! That is what I was getting round to about the De Beers corporation. They convinced or tried to convince the world diamonds were very rare and hence very expensive. They are not it turns out diamonds are sort of everywhere and now they can make them industrially but to convince people they could only get the real gems from De Beers allowed them to charge very high prices
Diamonds are everywhere and so are feelings……………….it was one of Janov’s central conceits that it all had to go through him. Not true. Not true then and not true now. What makes me question him even more is he has never tried to face up to this problem at least in public. Which is where it would count.
Absolutely my conclusion. I look back now on my early foray into therapy, needing to impress, envying those souls who just fell into classical, meaningful, all senses engaged, deep Primals , as pretty much bull shit. I wanted it to be real, believed it was real, even argued that point once with my therapist. In the end it’s all fodder for progress. Finally no one to impress; too old!!! hah And now those,” diamonds ,” just arrive on their own out of the process of living. And some days I’m able to see them, recognize and feel them. One, that I had known intellectually all of my life and, ” worked at,” for 40 years, the whole sequence passed before my eyes as I was parking my car. It was like a movie fast framed.
What I was thinking about was how much I liked my new-to -me car, when it arrived.
Beyond feeling the extreme sadness came a validation, ” It was true.” the relief was huge.
My resignation was joy. Some sadness, too, that so much of my life had been wasted stuggling with that story line and those people.
Guilty of only 1/2 reading your post before responding. I don’t know Art. Moved some of his furniture once. The main Primal Patient occupation; that and bread baking…
Whatever motivates that in Janov , and Primal Therapy control, in general has I agree resulted in in becoming one of the best kept secrets. It was on everyone’s lips in the 70’s.I never meet even people in Psychology or Social Work who have even heard of it anymore.
Has Barry or Gretchen written any books ??
I quote you again:- “if there is ONE ‘change’ or ‘improvement’ on primal as written down so far is to maybe get away as much as possible from the idea of therapy being identified with sessions, groups, retreats etc”.
I totally agree that most of the time, for me, the feelings comes to me mostly when I am on my own … though at the retreats I was often thrown into a sad feeling of my own … mainly by hearing someone else’ story.
As I experience it, sessions, groups and also the retreats serve to poke me, I later, often when I have left, reflect upon the session or group and drop into a feeling. From quite small through to quite huge. As I see the whole Primal procedure…once I got the theory behind it all … I saw a whole ‘other way of being’. My therapy placed me squarely in that ‘mold’
To and for me:- that “other way of being” was simply to be integrated within my body and existence from seeing it ALL as feelings. I watch the PBS news nightly and the major issues of the day … first the Ebola out-break and now the Nepal earth quake are events that make me sad and I will often shed a tear for it. Other events on the news like the police brutality; triggers me into anger and I usually blurt out some expletive about them, and depending upon the valance, might strike a blow into a cushion or my sofa.
One other feeling that arises occasionally is fear, mainly fear of my own “process’ of my demise. It triggers me into an experience of the most unutterable fear when I was two years old and woke up to an empty house and no ‘mammy’ to come to me … and no idea what next; just:- I am about to die. The other feelings are mostly, fun, happiness, joy and just simple contentment.
All the above for me is what I now feel I gained from therapy. For me … well worth the price, the time and my journey here to LA. I see it all as:- that simple. No need to philosophize about it or spend a great deal of rationalizing, or thought about it.
Simply due to circumstances I have not made a Santa Barabara retreat. I agree with the value of retreats and sessions. My need to impress, to belong, made my early, “Primals,” a bit of role playing. If it was finacially possible I’d be back for sessions, apply to redo intensive; and attend retreats. I believe in the therapy unequivocally. I had more blocks than a retaining wall. Had I been able to stay past 10 months they would perhaps have crumbled.
I was measuring myself, my ability to Primal, against that hig screen 3D movie screen Primal, image I had conjured prior to coming to therapy. MY childhood lot in life was liar, and failure.
AS a young Social Work Student interning at a Psychiatric Hospital, the doc who supervised me jokingly said the classifications of mental illness were, mad,sad, glad,crazy, and all fucked up. AFU was me.
Rambling on in my head now; suffice to say my barriers to therapy were many and well fortified. They have to be to escape being killed.
In therapy I was sttruggling to get healed to finally have a life and convinced I’d be a failure at it and live on in that misery. I kept that to myself. A bit counter productive. I figured if Barry knew how bad I needed help they’d toss me rather than waste time on a hopeless case. When I didn’t see him after Intensive, I was convinced. You know the really top therapists are saved for the best outcome candidates, the star patients. Kept that to myself, too. Pretty fucked up shit, eh ?
When back home without anyone to impress, no one to try to get to love me best, I started to see some of those things. My next huge job was to stop thinking, stop trying to create the primal scene, doing it right. Thinking was my stay alive tool as a kid.
As I gave up trying it happened. A slower process and will likely cover little compared to a guided tour. Without a lottery win, that’s all that’s left for mme. My chance came and went.
David: Something moved me in this comment of yours. I sort of saw what a terrible time you had both in child-hood and also in your cut short therapy. It saddened me. Don’t ask me why … I might figure it out later … unless you have an idea; if so, it would be ok to tell me.
I personally don’t see ‘mental illness’ the way you describe your supervisor characterized it. I see it as the destruction of what should have been … a normal life in utero and the very early entrance into this world. That said, is it possible to reverse it?? I’m not sure … BUT I do see that some of that damage can be mittigated … such that one can get some sort of decent life from here-on-in. However, I am not into your head so I can’t say that the same might apply to you.
What I do feel very strongly about is that even for those not aware of Primal Therapy or Art Janov … there is a way to get some recompense. I wrote a second book titled “Feeling Therapy; Real Health: Yourself” where I hoped (maybe foolishly) that I might have something to pass on to others. Arthur Janov read the book and (breiefly) commented back to me:- “It is good but I never sign books because you recommended the Primal Institute as well as the Primal Center. It is concise and fine book” .
Vivian read my first book and wrote back to me:-“I found the first 5 pages stating principal of Primal theory to be a very good summary. In part 2, I think you risk your strong opinions to be taken as simplistic and hard for some readers to relate to. Neither Barry nor Gretchen have read it though I did give them a copy of my last book.
Wnat I am suggesting is that I would be willing to send you an e-copy of that book if you would supply me with an email. Mine is jackwaddington@yahoo.com. No offense if you would prefer me not to.
Seems to be a great need to get the Janov’s approval………………..I would wonder why. It’s clear they keep you at a distance which I suppose makes the need for their approval all the more. Seems strange after all these years hardly even a basic understanding of anything has been achieved. There seems to be a lot of deliberate ‘distancing’ going on here and you make yourself a sort of ‘child’ to them……………
I wasn’t kicking therapy. Believe me I would if I felt it was appropriate. I was describing defences I came to recognize in my primal box at home. I left to look after my teen age children when their mother moved in with another man. I was sold on Primal when Art wrote the first Scream. It seemed right. I was also exposed to observing the practice of , ” mock Primal, ” as the Institutes call it from then until I went to therapy. The patients were all chronic mental health ,”failures,” in the beginning, psychoses, addicts, suicidal; later, overflow Institute applicants on a waiting list from all over the world. They were all encouraged to wait until the Institute had an opening. Seeing them heal into drug free functioning reasonably content people was beynd exciting.
You asking “Seems to be a great need to get the Janov’s approval………………..I would wonder why.”
Actually I did not need their approval. What they gave me was to read my book/s and comment upon them. There’s nothing else needed. I have done the 30 years of therapy and that was me doing it for myself. For all your “wonderings” that is all I can tell you. I hope that answers your question.
Yes they kept their distance, but then they kept thier distance from all patients. That, as I read you, was one of your chief complaints … yeah????.
Well he certainly does not keep his distance in the way the Janovs/therapists did. I spent close to 2 days with him which I think is/was good in that it helps take away any ‘symbolization’ or ‘hero worship’ tendencies at least for me. As I said before there were/are aspects of him I question a bit……………but at least I get to do that and not drift forever in never never limbo land as I feel a lot of ‘primals’ do.
I think it is an important part of ‘primal’ (as currently done) is to keep that distance and to me it encourages a lot of illusion. This ties into my conceit about Janov being like the De Beers the more illusion you stoke, the more ‘special’ and rare they appear, the more money you can charge, the more the market you can corner, the more ‘warnings’ you can send out first about other therapies and once that’s done ‘warnings’ about anyone else who does primal.
A funny thing about Janov he filed a lawsuit to patent the word ‘primal’………think of the absurdity of that primal is a word so basic and so beyond even ‘indigenous’ culture, it is more basic and more common to all humans and even all animals. But this dude tried to ‘own’ it literally make it his. Instead of recognizing it belongs to all of humanity he attempts to ‘corner the market’ and it all has to go through him. In an ironic twist little or nothing goes through him now……………justice I would say
“Diamonds are Forever” as the slogan went well Janov WANTED to be forever and it seems with you Jack you are one of the few where he ‘succeeded’
We all have a knack of twisting the words of others to demonstrate our own point of view; but you really “take the biscuit”.
Janov in the days after I arrive in 1981 did the Thursday afternoon group which I didn’t feel was his keeping any distance. To the best of my awareness he didn’t even make any attempt to keep it secret in that by the time I arrived (7 years later) there were at least 12 therapist. I gather he did not start to issue warnings until such times as he found other psychologist; from just reading his book/s, trying to cash in on it. As far as I know the patent office will only allow copyright to phrases and not single words in the English (or any other language). Such that he does have the right to copyright the phrase “Primal Therapy”.
I am of the impression that if others try to jump on the Paleo Diet bandwagon that Dr. K might attempt the same. The whole nature of patent and copyright is meant to protect people that spend time energy and money developing something unique. Arthur Janov certainly falls into that category. He certainly made no attempt to stop my book/s and especially the last one where I was offering a ‘do-it-yourself’. book based on Feelings. So … I am not convinced by your take on this matter. I stated in both books, that no-one has a monopoly on feelings. He did not question that accertion of mine.
Looking into my “crystal ball” I feel strongly that there will eventually be a universal recognition of his findings (discovery, and hence the theory surrounding it) and that eventually the medical profession will accede to that. However there is no guarantee that my ‘crystal ball’ has any validity in forecasting the future. One last factor:- Yes I am a fan of his; just as there are many out there that are fans of musician, painters, writers, actors or the like. Being a fan is not the same as creeping up to the guy for recognition. I have stated several times, there are few that know him [personally;- only his writings and work) and neither you, U.S.G, or I, know the guy that intimately. I follow only his therapeutic methodology … otherwise I remain the same flawed human being you have known since those early days, when we both worked a couple of times for Mike Lewis.
Mike Lewis now there is a name, Jack; Mike and his old Ford pick up and tow behind furniture van. What a scammer! I think Rory ??, pickup truck mover, referred me to him. I confonted him one morning with his dishonest behaviour. He wisely aborteds a move to physically sneak attack me, but promised I’d never work in LA again. I went on to work for Tom Foley and Oyvind, at Moving Hearts, Frank Mulhare, Patrick ?? a few times , and Elephant Move.
We moved in some of the same circles.
Though hardly phyically small, I became aware in post group that I felt smaller and less significant than the therapists, and some patients who seemed to have the , “classic,” , “primals.”
Then one night my perception changed and we all were one size, and I perceived my ability to be equal.
My supervising psychiatrist was one of the very few mentally healthy docs at the psychiatric hospital; a warm, caring humanitarian, who did not do prescription pad treatment nor ECT; a younger Chinese lady, with a wicked sense of humor, from whence came the humorous def describing her archaic profession. Not indicative of her attitude or practice. And certainly not mine.
I’m not sure what stirred your feeling. Yeah, I survived every worst that Chas Dickens should never have written you can imagine. I had a good live in grandfather but he died when I was 8. And then I repeated by assembling a cast of significant relationships where I gave and got nothing or got more abuse. You know the drill. I avoid those now. But there’s not a lot to pick from. My only emotionally straight pal is 90, and no longer mentally acute. The other friend here who had years of Primal ,”informed ,” therapy, descended into addiction and after regaining sobriety becoming emotionally inaccessible, after his horribly abusive father died, I gather ending the possibiity or hope of ever resolving that.
So settling for understanding what’s going down, what the limitations are when socializing with egocentrics and narcissists is a trade off to having a friend who is interested in what I’m about.
And to be fair I’m not an easy match; non theist, non bigot, non racist, socially and environmentally conscientous, non macho, with an advertised weird belief in equitable sharing and that the well being of all living things is as important as mine.
Sometimes being all grown up is about that accepting what I cannot change thing. Tears are very healing.
My 40 year established pension fund got gutted by a frequent trader manager and exposed in the 08 crash. My share of the 200 + million dollar fine was $ 48.62. Just explaining. I believe I have fully felt that. Except for the, “it’s unfair,” feeling. That’s an old one though. I’m laughing about it right now.
My retirement plans included returning to LA. That is not going to happen now. Reality.
I get the feeling that your “Seem” (or is it seam) is a bit out of ‘flunter’. However, I doubt that you might be willing to give that some consideration. Just my gut feeling about you … having known you for these past 30 years. But whatever.
Not so much anger as angst, Margaret, for the real issues out there, and in my personal life. Not to get , too, ” Primally 101,” here but my mother, I would learn through feeling, brought up plenty of anger in me by constant complaining, never doing anything to deal with those things but try to get someone to look after her and blame all of issues of her own initializing onto other people. Perhaps sometimes in situations where I’m not being paid to be supremely non-judgemental, I still drift into my reptile brain and get pissed off like a little kid.
And maybe a bit angry that circumstances called me home 6 months short 10 months into my LA stay. But the tool box I was able to assemble has been a valuable ally.
You are correct, maybe, Margaret. I like to say I have let it go. I actually thought that was true.It makes me sound like a better evolved human. I think hurt is the toughest thing for me to feel. On the other hand you have not a clue who I am. I expressed an opinion. Guess I lost that round with you.
Remembering summer.yes it is hot as hell in l.a. and it is not summer. Quick note for posterity. Just about to fall asleep. Black cat wants to be in the room with me and dogs. Cat always wants to lay on edge of bed, which always makes me feel trapped. Then starting to drift off, and I see this recurrent dream of some big big building with many rooms, no people, secret rooms. Immediately thinking of the attic my uncle used to put me in,then I am thinking I should look up other closet-boys on the internet. I guess that is pretty horrific when you think about it. Really trapped and alone. Well I will never feel this feeling, and I would really like to have a better dream than this giant building industrial that has secret panels and walls and hiding places. Good nite
I write this with some apology to Mr. DVDdoodle99, because it seems like he is opening up now and I don’t want to stand in his way….however…
I felt somewhat of a sense of urgency to type this out before I forget, OK? I do apologize for “stealing attention away from another”. Once I finish this post, I will walk away for a short while, at least.
Not long ago, I wrote about how music can seem to contribute to mood disorders over the long term because of how it has become a hyper-emotive acoustical drug today compared to ancient Primal man using bird wing flutes 40,000 years ago,.
Below are three good examples of kick-ass songs that are so fucking depressing to me now that I shake my head in bewilderment at how I listened to such sad songs so much when I was a teenager. I maintain they compounded my depression….Sure, the songs are a beautiful expression of melancholic feelings, but they are so powerful they bombarded my little teenage brain into needing Prozac more than would have been necessary without listening to them and having them reverberate constantly in my mind for days because of my kickass 60-watt Pioneer/multi-way Jensen/sound-absorbing cloth car seats. Creates a bad mindset when trying to study Calculus, you know? It really did….How the hell can I study complex, delicate logic when I was being tossed asunder emotionally by my own car stereo system? My party friends all thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread, and I didn’t know any better or give what I was doing any serious reflection unlike today.
Warning: Intense Depression Ahead
The Smiths “How Soon Is Now”
The Smiths “That Joke Isn’t Funny Anymore”
Bryan Adams “Everything I Do (I Do It for You)” <—Probably the best-known of the three
Guru, What I find is that music can help me get deeper into a feeling I’m already having and I’m attracted to it for that reason. An example, Jimmi Hendrix “Blues” compilation; I want to listen to that sometimes when I’m in a really low down feeling, basically feeling like s**t. If I go deeper then I may want to turn the music off as it becomes a distraction I no longer need. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:55:33 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Funny you should mention Jimi Hendrix, Phil. “Waterfall” is my favorite of his and it happens to be a cheery song for me. But yeah, I do see much more clearly how I got carried away by music when I was younger. He’s no longer in the business (think he’s dead now), but Bob Shabel was one of the best stereo installers in the country for a time. I wish I had never met him in some ways, LOL!
Guru, I’m going to check out those songs you mentioned later on. If you were to listen to them now they don’t have that effect? To me the grunge rock genre is all depressive stuff and a lot of alternative rock too, but it doesn’t quite do it for me. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 21:20:43 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: It’s the same effect today as it was a long time ago, but today I am much more cognizant that the music itself is altering my moods (many times for the worse). It could be simply because I am older & wiser, but I am willing to concede it to Progress in Primalling (ie. learning more about myself and who I am, etc. etc.)
Guru, As a child music was important to me and my brother as well. I remember when I was about 12 and he was 17, his musical tastes were changing. He started listening to Black Sabbath and Mahavishnu Orchestra and similar things. Music having little joy I would say. Jehovah Witness people came around to our house and he took their pamphlets seriously and was talking about Satan the devil etc. I could see how he was becoming delusional, or at least it seemed so to me. Then what happened is he had a psychotic break, which he’s never recovered from to this day. The music didn’t do this to him; he always had a lot of problems Apparently he latched on to it due to his state of mind. Also he attempted suicide by drinking rubbing alcohol. A part of that low down feeling I was talking about besides other things that took place in the family. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 21:37:03 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
My close friend used Hendix music to access feelings, especially 1st line ,before he had sophisticated language. For him, an accomplished musician, it was the music not the words.
For me it was words; I write songs. I stopped performing because there was nothing I wanted to be connected with saying anymore.
A few years ago the music became more important, both Cello and Sax began stirring feelings.
My choice for moving music moved to raw Rock and Blues. And the way women musicians voice their instruments seems more primordial to me.
Worthy selections. May I nominate, ” Hopeless Romantic,” Billy Vera, to that fold. It so strongly stimulated that, ” nothing left,” feeling the critic demanded he cheery up the ending a bit. It still moves grief in me; the first time dredging up my loss of my 4 year old daughter, ater cardiac surgery. ” I live in a dream world of caring and sharing, Of good guys and nobody lies…”
Well, the point I was trying to re-iterate earlier today was simply that I don’t regret listening to much less music than I did in the past. It has helped me quite a bit in terms of emotional stability. I won’t speak for others here, but I definitely notice the difference for myself overall. I figure if primal man didn’t need anything more than bird wing flutes 40,000 years ago, it has been easy as pie for me to just listen to absolutely nothing but my own thoughts & contemplations on long drives, etc.
Why waste our short, fragile lives being bombarded with mass-marketed external acoustics when it can already be difficult enough as it is to discover & unearth our own deepest musings without such distractions?
Guru, I can see about those Smith’s songs being depressive but not really the one by Bryan Adams. Doodle, that Billy Vera video is a good one. I have loads of songs which work with sad feelings, here are a couple: “Leaving on a Jet Plane” by Peter Paul and Mary. My sister gave me an album this was on, and then she left on a plane, she was always leaving. “I left my heart in San Francisco” by Tony Bennett. I’ve never been there but the song gets to me. “The times of our lives” by Paul Anka. A very “primal” song, it minds me of my father. Phil Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 04:24:42 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
davydoodle is my middle daughter’s pet name for me. It got used when I finally agreed to give up my tech resistance. I vowed when I retired the computer would remain in my old office. My name is David. Now this is sad, some friends call me David, some , Dave, and some, Davey. I unwittingly memorized who uses which version and used to idenitfy myself accordingly when corresponding with each.
That is kind, Leslie. Thankyou. I watched a TV movie when in LA where George Burns played god,
he was in the witness box and at a point in his evidence I was moved to tears. After feeling the feeling and weeping I rewatched it, it was one of those play it over and over channels, and at the same point sadness came up again, but a different facet of the feeling. So I watched it again, same point another feeling memory. This may sound too trivial, but besides feeling I got an educational experience. !st time watched in my buoyant enthusiasm about Primal, I was, ” Yes. It works. I ffelt that and it’s resolved. 2nd time it thought it didn’t work, here I was tied up in knots again, and then found it was a different feeling; and so on. I’ll confess to experimenting with multiple viewings. I should have save time bought a VCR and the movie..hah And I started to learn that I would have to feel some things over and over, some would never resolve.
At a Institute Halowe’en Party I wrote comic Primally lyrics to the music of the Everly Brothers tune, ” Dream.” The last line was, ” Oh Mr. Janov Primal really is a scream.”
At the end of the day I give thanks for Primal, I love it, I hate it, I wish I had never heard of it. Sometimes I say I wish I had been a drunk brute long haul driver who believed his wife and dog were to blame for his misery, instead of a social worker, adding the misery of the world to my own personal load. But Primal changed that, too.
I will never be Primal Man. Most days I’m not aware if that still makes me feel like a failure. I suspect that I am too well defended to be able to access a lot of pain. My mother would say I’m simply too stupid to ever get anything right, I know that’s untrue but some days mommy still knows best.
I don’t deliberately try but apparently I ‘m good at hiding because people, except a couple close friends, who know me well talk about how strong I am because I have remained happy, smiling, and there for others despite personal adversity. There’s great song, ” Hiding,” recorded by Albert Lee; written by a good friend of mine, about hiding our feellings.
I never bad mouth Primal because that might prevent someone who needs it from applying.
Ya know what, I am really really fucking tired of this shit. This fucking goddamn shit. This motherfucking goddamn shit that makes up my life. I am reallly really really fucking tired of this shit. I have had e-fucking-nough.
Yes, I have had it. I worked really hard to get a job application in by deadline. Then I didn’t read all the instructions carefully so I didn’t include a required form, and I was disqualified. I didn’t really want the job, just the money, so no biggie. Then my friend at work allowed me to listen in to his over-the-phone- interview for this same job. He is very adept at speaking, even though they gave him difficult questions, he did a good job. He relates well to people, he kept his cool, and his confidence. So next to him, I feel like a total schlub. You know I can’t get my mouth open in group. I would have done miserably on the interview. I hadn’t any time to prepare for the likely questions that they asked him because the old dog is draining both Z and me. The house looks like shit, the cat is sick, the other dog has long long nails and I don’t have the energy to trim them. We are very broke and I was actually hoping to get this job so I could pay some bills, even though the job would have entailed so much more work. I am taking off so much time at work, that I definitely would not have been able to do this job. Now some one of Z’s friend’s mother has died, I don’t know if Z is even coming back with the car tonight so I can go to work tomorrow. She is consoling her friend. The head honchos at work, 2 of whom were the job interviewers, keep giving out creepy statements in our meetings, political bullshit, work more more more and you too can go to the top, like the young kid who is going to get this job, who has been groomed to take this job, who this job was created for, yes, even my black friend who did great on the interview, he knows this, all of us at work know this, motherfucking masons, motherfucking bitchholes. Bringing up feelings in me of beatings. That meeting today was a real beating. Old beatings I cannot remember. Or just one life-threatening beating. Mental beatings by being locked in an attic with no food, and only cardboard boxes as friends. The attic that peered down on the pigeon coop where my uncle would pull out baby pidgeons and pull their heads off and encourage me to do the same, and watch as the headless birds stay upright with blood spurting out of their necks, and being encouraged to laugh at it, this is the feeling that I experience at work all the time now, not visually, but just “I CANT STAND BEING HERE! I HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE!” And the rest of my life, the fucking dryer crapped out again. No problem because it is a hundred fucking degrees here in the valley, put the washed clothes on the chairs in the backyard. I cant wait to go back to work tomorrow, cant wait to get a coffee and a sandwich at 7-11, push so much carb sugar into my bloodstream that I feel like I am on heroin, so I can force myself to work yet another day. Good to go to work, because focusing on my job keeps me away from all my shit feelings. Except for today, with the meetings with the asshole bosses and their devious plans and their back-office clandestine closed-door meetings. The cat is howling and I feel like chasing it with a broom, but I don’t have the energy. I could watch porn on the internet, and I could have the speaker turned on since Z is with her grieving friend somewhere, but I don’t have the energy. I finally got more than one tomato plant planted this year, but so the fuck what. Living near the freeway, the tomatoes will probably be poisoned by asbestos and other crap. I cant go to the mens retreat in the desert, and I don’t want to go to the fucking desert and play poker anyways, but I am jealous that people get to do things that I cant. I went to the fucking desert when my 2nd kid was young, with his boyscout pack and I felt so out of place, I am so afraid of people or uncomfortable around people, it is horrible. I just want to get into a room and scream and yell about this bullshit, but I wouldn’t have even done this at the previous institute, because I don’t want anyone to hear me. Making noise got me sent to the attic as a kid. Making noise as a kid got me doped up with something, milk sugar, who knows what. Come on dog, just fucking go to sleep and let me write my misery out.
Your life seems really difficult, too difficult. I feel mine is easier in comparison, yet I identify with yours. I easily feel immobilized. It often feels too difficult to take necessary steps toward change. That’s what I hear in your post, and it strikes a chord in me.
Otto,
It sounds like your uncle was extremely sadistic and sick. I guess you can’t scream and yell where you are. Maybe the neighbors are too close and it would disturb the
pets? I use my car in the garage as my primal box. It’s quite cramped but it
does work as far a privacy. In the winter I bring an electric blanket there in addition to pillows.
I also relate a lot to your posts although my life is mostly different.
Phil
It’s interesting to me how 40 years after the Primal Scream, the word “primal” is still felt to have significant cachet in cultural consciousness such that businesses will attach their brand to it to promote themselves.
Larry – if I can gently disagree again ‘primal’ is word regardless and independent of Janov. Now it’s true he tried to make it ‘his’ or synonymous with him which to me encapsulates many of the qualities which meant ‘primal’ could not or did not succeed as done and defined by him.
Does not mean it cannot ‘succeed’ but it would IMHO take a pretty serious re-think and re-vamp. Primal as a word was there before Janov and hopefully it can withstand his ‘influence on the word so it will be there after him. And it seems that it is.
Very different perceptions of reality you and I have, Patrick. Interesting what a different tangent your thoughts take. I wonder if it’s hard work to maintain them.
Larry – No I would not say it is ‘hard work’ and I don’t like the smirky last sentence………….of course you are sure to get ‘support’ here so you feel ‘strong’ enough to talk like that to me. I really don’t like the supercilious and pseudo knowing tone in that……………like you really KNOW? Do you?
Phil – it’s a good question you put to me…………..if you don’t mind I will leave it awhile as I would probably only repeat myself so let me think about it a bit.
A person who knows Art told me he regretted from the get go using the word , “Primal.” It was a convenient word to describe a phenomenon so different from any patient experience in psychotherapy.
Why not invite Dr. Janov to comment on this forum, about , ” Primal,” usage and the supreme being image that is painted on him, instead of second guessing the man. He was able to regroup on return to LA. Some people must still regard him positively. ????
How much negative feeling towards him is transference ?
dvd: Where exactly on the blog did you infer that there is a supreme being image painted on Art? Can you doodle the answer on a slightly clearer canvas for us?
I recently ,” outed,” my name, “david.” The inference I keep picking up is that many people believe that Dr. Janov construes himself as some superior being. That he is only interested in protecting his turf and the notiin that only he knows how to do the therapy correctly.I don’t know the man. I think there’s an equal chance that others for their own needs and reasons will see him in many lights and they will all more than likely, in some small part, or wholely, be wrong.
There is no evidence that ,” Primal, ” theory ever emanated from any mind before his ,” discovery,”and no way of knowing if, or how long after, it would have ever been discovered. Putting it out there cost him dearly. Whenever anyone swims against the current of political power there is a price to pay. And BIG PHARMA medicine protects it’s turf. And, thankfully there is a conservative brake to new iideas.
But I beieve Arthur Janov is owed a huge debt of gratitude for Primal theory.
dvddoodle99 – I thought Guru’s question quite reasonable and didn’t see any ‘sarcasm’ in it. Since the blog seems to be messing up a bit again in terms of where it puts things Guru’s question was:
“Where exactly on the blog did you infer that there is a supreme being image painted on Art?
Guwrote , maybe I would care to “doodle” more clearly. I say that’s sarcastic. Come on, all of the Art haters allude through their own transference goggles that he holds himself as being otherworldly. I know I sure as heck have not made the contribution to the possibility of regaining mental heath as have he and Vivian, et al who made the cut as certified therapists.
I argue more should have been done to force Primal into the prima therapy.position.
The problem therein; lies in the acronym IMHO. If you only knew from whence your, or anyone else’s, “opinion” originated … you might use it a little more sparingly. An opinion proves nothing in the final analysis, and demonstrates it comes mainly from that solo performer “the left lobe” Jack
Larry, Businesses may not be referring to primal therapy when they use the word.
I see google says that synonym’s to primal are: basic, fundamental, essential, elemental, vital, essential, intrinsic, and inherent. I wouldn’t use the word in those senses though.
Patrick, I don’t know why you insist on remaining with our cult here. I’m guessing we’ve all gotten the message by this point on how you feel about Janov and primal. I’m fine with that, but it’s the repetitiveness that starts to get to me.
Phil
I agree Phil. I doubt that the businesses are referring to primal therapy, or that they’ve even heard of primal therapy. What I’m saying is it’s interesting how the word has been assimilated onto the axons and dendrites of western culture consciousness, after the Primal Scream came out. I don’t remember hearing the word primal before then. Google primal, and most or all references to it are dated after 1970.
Larry, that is an interesting point and I think you’re right. Freud made use of the word primal but it doesn’t seem like it entered common usage at that time.
Phil
I have to doubt if these businesses are piggy backing on Primal Therapy. When I used to bring up, ” Primal,” at professional gettogethers beyond the mis 90’s , psychologists and social workers had never heard of Primal. Once the threat failed to materialize that Primal would, as I believe it should, replace the failed, ” conventional,” psychotherapy, and push psychopharmaceuticals into disuse, sadly, Primal disappeared from the popular lexicon.
Primal theatened to kill a financially lucrative sick care industry.
I obviously have never and will never reach the level of Primal experience of those of you with 30 + years interaction with formal therapy, but I saw enough in practical application with other patients to make me an unequivocal believer in the efficacy of Primal theory.
David, I think there are less than you can count on one hand how many here have 30 years of interaction with formal therapy. My understanding is that some on this blog have been in it very briefly and now aren’t doing primal therapy at all nor living it. I had less than 2 years of formal interaction, way back when I started primal, and have lived away from LA since. More recently, I’ve been on this blog for the almost 6 years since it started and in the 6 years started going to the retreats.
Since starting therapy way back then I’ve been primalling throughout my life, slowly in small dribs and drabs making changes to my life, squeezing out the pain and gradually, little by little coming out of the shell I was deeply embedded in. I find that this blog and the retreats have helped me to see the things I need to do and have accelerated my passage deeper and deeper into my childhood where I strongly resist going.
Like you I have no doubt as to its efficacy, and I see how each individual is complex in their history, their personality, their defenses and their willingness to look at and change their life and to primal, and the efficacy of the therapy varies accordingly. Primal therapy isn’t magic that easily makes life better. I see some people have a really, really, really hard road to slog to better their life. I see that very few people want to do that. I wish there was a way to help the people in therapy who have a really hard life, but the therapy only works from the individual trying to better their life. I see that ultimately we each have to re-experience the worst of our life on our own, which is the hardest thing to do, and must be almost impossible for individuals with strong defenses.
Well put, Larry. Not knowing the other bloggers I wanted to be clear that I have only had 10, but very valuable, months of therapist directed treatment, and then on my own as life
digs it out and I happen to be up to recognizing it. No magic. But know
there are real reasons for my imperfections, not imaginary.
Oh how I wanted there to be magic. One of those keepers of the secret would push my button and I would scream my way into a perfect, happy life.
Somewhere in those months I believe I lost the ability to kill myself. Somedays I lament that loss. No lack of opportunities to feel pain.
Thank you Larry and David! This is refreshing to read.
Absolutely, therapy is a long, drawn out process and it has only been with the skilled and caring guidance and support of Gretchen, Barry, Vivian and Art, Mark and others over all the years that have made it possible for me to get the help to help myself. To now recognize and allow what I am feeling is such a monumental yet comforting sense of being – that I am forever and ever grateful to have and count on.
Larry – I wonder if your way of thinking is hard to ‘maintain’. Just to repeat a bullshit question or to quote yourself below………………
“The reason I wonder is because something is driving you to go on and on, telling us over and over, trying to convince us. … or yourself? … or wanting validation? …or what? Hammering away, over and over, for some reason. It seems like a lot of work. I imagine it would be tiring.”
Otto, with all that daily sugar, I would worry you could be diabetic, and is your blood pressure ok? My other brother did not take care of those things, just got up every day and had lost 20 lbs, so he thought he was ok, but he had a stroke over a month ago, and lost serious functionality, senses and muscles. He is unable to drive, in a wheelchair, learning to walk again, regaining his balance, wearing a catheter, on meds just to keep from throwing up all his food, facial left-side numbness, blurry left vision, now on insulin as well as blood pressure meds. It was too easy to have happen, and he lost even more control of his life.
Larry – it is hard work to maintain your ideas? What kind of a bullshit question is that? Is it ‘better’ if it is ‘easy’ or ‘hard’? Why don’t you say what you are really thinking? So the question for you is is it HARD or EASY for YOU to maintain your ideas? What are you really driving at?
The reason I wonder is because something is driving you to go on and on, telling us over and over, trying to convince us. … or yourself? … or wanting validation? …or what? Hammering away, over and over, for some reason. It seems like a lot of work. I imagine it would be tiring.
Stuck at home again with dogs and cats and hellish heat. Z took car to go see her sister. Worked overtime this morning, and that was the highlight of my day. Pulling old data out of an ancient system to figure out if old computer equipment was gotten rid of or not. It is interesting to me, in that it is a puzzle to be figured out, how to get this data out of a kooky-ass database system. Took a nap, got up and did nothing. Too hot, no motivation. Also, I know that if I start to do something, either the old dog will bark and gutterally talk because he wants to pee, poop, eat, or drink. Or who the hell knows what he wants. Or Z will call me to tell me what a good time she is having, or she will walk in the door when I finally have gotten myself motivated, so I don’t bother doing anything. I finally got started listening to music, which is difficult enough, because most of the music that I like is old (60’s) and it makes me feel old to listen to it. Finally listening to Hair, What a Piece of Work is Man. I didn’t know this was Shakespeare when I was young. That verse set to music is superb. Anyway, I took this girl to see Hair at the Aquarius Theatre in Hollywood, sometime in the late 60’s or early 70’s. I wanted her so bad, and she already had a boyfriend with whom she was intimate; I didn’t know that when I took her. Also took her to see the Doors, was reminded of this the other day when I heard Love Me 2 Times. Anyway, big sorrow in that arena. Don’t really want to think about it. Why the hell am I writing this boring piece of information? I forget. Sitting in my box of a bedroom with the a/c on, dog in lap, no car, no friends, no hope. I am thinking, I would not mind going to some place and hearing some live music and people-watch. I lost interest in doing that kind of thing a few times. One of the last ones was, and this was at least 2 years ago, when I still had .08 percent left of Hope, me and Z went to the Farmers Market and there was a little band there, and I was enjoying listening to the music, but Z got into a feeling about how I wasn’t paying any attention to her, so that was the end of that. I give up easy. Ok, so stuck in prison here, and I am feeling more and more hopeless. Maybe if Z gets back before it is too late, I can take a ride down by the beach with the dogs. Ha! Just kidding. More likely, I will likely open a can of stringbeans for the dogs. Well, at least we are not being bombed by ISIS or anti-ISIS, run out of our homes into the desert. Or at least another million horrible things are not happening to me. Yet.
The Retreat, as “A unique and valuable therapeutic experience”, kind of like the Venice May Day Festival tomorrow, as announced by sm. Well maybe i go catch at least one act. Fat chance, I hate Venice. I don’t hate seeing women in their summer clothes, however. But the parking, or lack of it…whatever. Maybe i go scout it out tomorrow morning with the dogs. Don’t count on it bitch.
Getting manic. Maybe the moon going into scorpio. At least, I think it is. I will know tomorrow if sex is dripping off the bright blue sky, and women look at me with lust. I won’t be looking at me except with disgust, I didn’t look that good as a kid, but this old face I really don’t like to see. Or I will know if I can figure out worldy stuff so easily, I cant give an example, but maybe I will experience one tomorrow. Kid and Z got back, in the other room making noise playing some game. I should hang out with them but even if they didn’t have the killer dog with them in there, the one who has bitten all the other dogs, I wouldn’t be out there. Kid is whistling and being loud, he wants me to see that he is alive and he wants me to be a dad, and sadly, I am just a piece of garbage. I should have put more detail into my previous post about going to work today. For example, the data I am pulling out of ancient database; what year was the computer purchased, who in the warehouse input the computer’s info into the datanbase, etc. On the surface, boring crap, but all that datae exists because someone or many someones had something to do with that computer being where I work. Like if I were writing a movie, you would see the guy in Washington putting out a bid, some government bean counter kind of guy, talking in a character actor way to a computer salesman kind of character actor guy, in some sort of interesting exchange that I don’t care to flesh out at the moment and I never will. The black guys in the warehouse getting the pallets of computers, and being black around each other, not your movie type of stereotypical black, but more realistic kind of black, like movie sex is, compared to actual sex in real life (or so I have heard). A nurse walking down the hall, thinking about her relatives in the Philipines, but who knows if that actually is what she is thinking, because unlike Hemingway, I shun people and their experiences. The phillipine nurse trying to use her computer and yet it doesn’t do what she wants it to do. Maybe she is thinking about her childhood in the Phillipines while the computer guy is working on the computer. Maybe I could work in a cameo of the SNL computer guy here. Maybe the computer guy is thinking about how his boss came to work also, on the weekend working overtime, hanging out with his dream team, talking behind our backs about us and plotting how to increase their empire of computers and networks. Maybe the Chinese girlfriend of the boss would slither in, wearing her short skirt, oozing sexuality all over the place, and well, lets leave that alone for another day. Maybe the black janitor who is always polite would be there for some reason. Who gives a shit, because I really don’t have the drive I did when I was young and I just don’t care any more. The younger guys there were talking about starting a reality show about this hospital, but I doubt anything will happen because taking pictures here is forbidden. This kind of thinking helped me survive my childhood, which I guess is a good thing…or not. Lots of fantasy and guessing and creating scenarios. I remembered the other day a Flintstones playset that I had, when I was all alone in the living room of our house in Long Beach, probably before teenagehood. Moving the plastic Fred’s and Wilma’s around the little set that looked like Bedrock. I have no idea what I was making them say. Anyway, just another group of lonely days and nights, set around some points of time in the existence. Anyway, look at these lyrics, how can people write this stuff, it is not the greatest of lyrics, but jeez, it speaks to me.
“Scarlet Begonias”
As I was walkin’ ’round Grosvenor Square
Not a chill to the winter but a nip to the air,
From the other direction, she was calling my eye,
It could be an illusion, but I might as well try, might as well try.
She had rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes.
And I knew without askin’ she was into the blues.
She wore scarlet begonias tucked into her curls,
I knew right away she was not like other girls, other girls.
In the thick of the evening when the dealing got rough,
She was too pat to open and too cool to bluff.
As I picked up my matches and was closing the door,
I had one of those flashes I’d been there before, been there before.
Well, I ain’t always right but I’ve never been wrong.
Seldom turns out the way it does in a song.
Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Well, there ain’t nothing wrong with the way she moves,
Scarlet begonias or a touch of the blues.
And there’s nothing wrong with the look that’s in her eyes,
I had to learn the hard way to let her pass by, let her pass by.
The wind in the willow’s playin’ “Tea for Two”;
The sky was yellow and the sun was blue,
Strangers stoppin’ strangers just to shake their hand,
Everybody’s playing in the heart of gold band, heart of gold band.
I have read the comments on the therapists maintaining a distance from patients. I ‘m not friends with everyone I know. I think Primal Therapists pay a huge personal price for maintaining that distance in order to keep therapy the best it can be for patients. Imagine if one of the therapists meets a person as a patient and that friendship chemistry is there. The therapist has to deny herself/ himself that possibility.
Spent a 1/2 hour reading the thrust and parry. Hmm, I’m not sharp enough to feel embarrassed, hah. 60 years ago I got pissed off, do they still use such vulgarity in Primal circles??; at a fathers and sons hockey game because the ref gave penalties for falling down to the sons when the fathers tripped them, and credit to the fathers team when the sons scored a goal. My adult cousin put his arm around me and said it was sad I had never developed a sense of humour. I chalked that up to one more personal shortcoming not one more transgression against me. I adored this cousin for always doing nice things for me, but here was the unavoidable truth , he despised me like everyone else. After that I always felt hurt around him and never spoke unless spoken to.
It never occured to me that you aquainted bloggers were being humorous, sometimes; and between some of you friends. And that throwing out anger and everything else should be.When in the hell was humour officially approved in the official Handbook of Primal Dictum. hah
I was setting up sound gear for a gig last night, eavesdropping on a conversation involving one erudite self agrandizing gentleman I find trying; I don’t like the phony all important offensive prick and he dislikes me.
His lines and affect were so sweet I was bristling thinking , ” If you only knew what this asshole is really about.” The other, older, guy began relating a story about his life as a young man when he was physically competent. This, ” prick, ” replied, ” My how wonderful it is for you to have such a healthy memory.” The story teller became speechless.
The words seemed genuine, from this ,”pricks,” humanity. I was moved to tears for some unknown reason.
Jack I went to your ,” author,” site but the send function was not working; tried Firefox; Chrome; IE, browsers with same result. I have Stettbacher’s book. He was convicted of sexual offenses and Alice Miller wrote him off. But then towards her final days and with evidence of impaired faculties she denounced the Janovs and Primal in bizarre proportions.
David Hardy, the artiste formerly identified as dvddoodle99. Hard to believe there were 98 dvddoodle’s before me and no user space left for david, davey, davy, nor, davee, ” doodle’s”. My middle kiddo was insistent I use that baptismal nomenclature so she could spot my rants from wherever in the world she happened to be. The poor misguided child likes me so I acquiesced.
David: The site for my last book is:- The self publishing company is AuthorHouse and I believe it is available from Amazon.com. The two other alterantrives are:- !) for me to send you, free of charge, the e-copy of the book if you will supply me with an email address 2) I will send you a hard copy; if, after emailing me that request, you will supply a mailing address. I would be greatful to be renumerated afterwrds for postage
Jack
Are you talking about YOUR ideas???? May be you are referring to your/our superstar’s ideas.
If you are talking only about mine, I might suggest that my most redundant idea is that I once thought you were ‘fun’ to work with, in the days before the advent of Gentle Giant (aka “Genital Giant” 🙂 or for you 😦 .
Jack
Jack, et al… Ideas. I have a friend who is defended like a steel wall. Her anger is palpable. Her father is a sober alcohol addict. Her mother abdicated her role as enabler and wet nurse to her father and K took it on at age 6 or 7. She hates her mother shits on her constantly and adores her father. Last night she was telling me a memory of her father bringing home a 3 “, 3lb Porterhouse Steak every Saturday night as his treat. He would make a ceremony of introducing it as that, his 3” 3lb Porterhouse steak. She would sit quietly on his lap while he ate it, knowing she should not even consider asking for a piece. After he consumed the whole thing he would allow her to suck the steak juices from the fat and the bone. She beams with pride when she recalls that story. THat poor man who had such a hard life letting her sit on his tired lap, he owned a grocery store, and the plum, allowing her to suck on the waste before he gave it to the dog.
I could scream, weep for that poor little 6 yr old girl. I have always got along with her now very elderly dad. Professionally I know the family story; he was a drunken, philandering, charismatic, manipulator who impregnated numerous women in the area, married and single, some not very bright. Her mother was the creative brains and stability, behind his financial success, but she stayed in the background because she was embarrassed and wanted people to think highly of her husband.
I would never scratch the scab on my friend’s story because, well, I think why is evident.
I welcome any input if I am missing any way. I can help here. I don’t see it.
I loaned her partner, the Primal Scream, years ago. He was interested. I used to see it on the living room table. It came back never opened I think. Thanks..
David: If your relationship is more than just professional then I feel you need to tell us about that. In any event if K is as “defended as steel” I would suggest there is little you can do. As a friend or lover, you first need to accept her the way she is. From there-on-in, consider if your relationship is worth it.
Thanks, Jack. Never a professional relationship. I was merely in a circumstance 40 + years ago to know her parents relationship and her father’s behavior. None of them would be aware of that, I had listened again to this story just before commenting. I don’t think I can do anything to help but wondered how other eyes would see it. I can’t even offer a shoulder, the sort that can be interpreted as re-enforcement of her interpretation. I listen pan faced. The most I offer is that I’m sad for her.
Oh I neglected to clarify, K is the partner of a long time friend and former band mate. I have one of those blood hound faces that attracts people to tell me their stories. ha
Professionally and personally I follow the rule, ” First do no harm.” I lucked into this wonderful gift of Primal that makes my life better. I feel bad for those that didn’t.
“I lucked into this wonderful gift of Primal that makes my life better. I feel bad for those that didn’t.” You’re going to feel bad a lot then, because a lot of people didn’t luck into the therapy. Maybe the best way you can help your friend is to keep working on yourself and getting better, becoming an example and inspiration to others and your friend of what the therapy can do. Besides, not everyone wants this therapy, and it’s not necessarily going to work for everyone. I feel it’s up to the individual whether it’s worth it to them to risk the time and energy and do the work to change their life. Sometimes, seconds away or right in an awful feeling, I question whether it’s worth it to face the horrible reality. For me though it always is worth it, eventually. I wouldn’t want to be back there trapped in the feelings that were oppressing me weeks, years and decades ago.
hmm; I’m really not wanting to be a role model. I’m pretty simple. It comes naturally to respect others; I don’t associate with people who hurt others.. My professIonal guidepost, ” unequivocal acceptance, ” was a natural fit for me. I don’t have any need to struggle to try to entice people who are unlikely to be interested in investigating change. Visitors to my home will see several Janov books in obvious places. I don’t judge them.
And so I am unimaginably grateful that I got steered to Social Work and an incredible 1st mentor as a result of my old car imploding. Otherwise I would have made money and never have been given that copy of Primal Scream in 1972. And would have killed myself. It took 14 years to earn the extra money for Primal, , and sold my guitars, to travel 5000 miles to LA. where I an overweight sedentary became mr. cargo mover to live. A series of unplanned circumstances…
In the mean time I was exposed to, ‘mock” therapy and was a volunteer to receive potential patients at the Primal Centers of Nova Scotia.
Reality can be so hard. Who would ever want to face its harshness! Who would ever want to do this therapy! But the ones who do it, know the serenity of finally not running, finally accepting reality.
For 5 ½ years I’ve been mourning the death of my wife. I’m amazed how the crying that I did in the beginning, that hurt so much, barely scratched the surface compared to the depth of loss when I feel it now.
This afternoon I ran into and talked for a while to a younger colleague at work. She is a reclusive, troubled extrovert, can be sensitive, and now that she knows me is surprisingly open and honest. How are you? she asked. I felt like she meant it.
I told her it’s not easy for me knowing that I’m likely putting in only one more summer, only one more field season at work, that all too soon I’m suddenly at this later stage of life where my ‘career’ is over and I move into retirement. Where did the years go so quickly? I want to still be back there. I confided to her that the prospect of retirement is not coming easily to me. I explained that I have low grade persistent anxiety about my unknown, directionless future, anxiety that presents itself as a recurring tightness in my chest and periodic uneasy, asthma-like breathing.
She said, “I think you’re still in mourning. That’s why the prospect of retirement is hard for you.”
I try not to see it myself, so I never thought someone could see it so easily. As soon as she said it, I knew she was right.
After work I got home feeling unusually tired, heavy, and uncomfortably short of breath. I had no energy to attend a meeting I was supposed to be at in the evening. As soon as I sent notice that I wouldn’t be there, I needed to cry.
For 5 ½ years I’ve been chipping away, crying and letting go a little more and a little more. Deeper and deeper I let go of what we once had, and know there is no going back. I feel how pivotal it was to share life, and how alone my life has otherwise been. I bring a towel to my mouth because I feel need for loud expression as I wail and I don’t want to worry the neighbours. I sink into it, louder and more freely, until like a volcano I erupt into a brief spasms of pure in the moment intense feeling and I don’t care who hears it, it is profoundly important to my life to let go all stops and experience this feeling. She is gone and I will never again know the being with her. Not only is it I who wails, but a child in me screams with me at the pure hurt, the unfairness, the outright cruelty to finally have found someone and then have her taken away so soon. It’s too cruel for a child to bear, for a child to have no one. A child would have to shut down to survive.
Such a deep painful truth is such a relief to feel and accept, but I know there’s more.
I feel how important it is to let go, to accept loss so if I’m lucky I can be able to let someone else in…for who they are and not as a replacement to shield me from the loss. I don’t want to hold on to and live in the past.
After the feeling, the band around my chest is gone, the load has lifted from my back and shoulders, my breathing is easy and relaxed, and I feel a little more able to step into my future.
To not keep this to myself, to have you bear witness, helps my healing and growth.
It is amazing what you can do, do and then write about Larry!
So glad you got to know, love and experience the love you and Noreen created together.
To have all that – esp.after nothing – swept away so tragically and way too soon must be unbearable…
ox L.
> David,
> well, the more I hear from you the more I start to like you, as you are good at looking honestly at yourself , which is probably the hardest thing to do for all of us, both for seeing what should change, and for seeing what is really nice about ourselves..
>
> I like your balanced way of responding, so you are right in what you said about me not knowing anything about you at the time of my first response..
>
> it was merely an impression, probably coloured a bit by my fear another angry guy would show up and rant all over the place.
>
> but your presence is actually very refreshing, so I hope you will stay and keep adding your comments!
>
> you are very welcome here, Margaret
I was remembering an apres big group friend I met at Coco’s. His life story was bizarre and though he had made a tremendous recovery he would in times of agoraphobic tension react with a echolaic face rubbing routine . He was a kind, sweet person. I felt so sorry for him; an intelliegent, handsome, personable guy. But this , ” tic,” was offputting to others, and he had really no social group, like me. Remembering him recently and my benevolent kind sorrow for him it suddenly occurrred to me , how fucking arrogant I was, I am; fucked up me feeling sorry for him as if I didn’t have as big a problem, as if I wasn’t just as defective.
“To not keep this to myself, to have you bear witness, helps my healing and growth. ” This is also a need of mine, to have someone know my suffering. I have a Primal friend who never says what’s going on with him. He’s sa brilliant since the dawning of humans, flawless Lexicon. That info permeates his conversation. His not sharing which I usually read as his superior not needing to share feeds into my gonna die panic feeling, not as good as, defective…
The primal feelings that I’m slowly more and more succumbing to are childhood aloneness that I had thought were impossible to face. When I come up out of the feeling, you fellow bloggers help me to learn to trust that there really are good, empathetic people out there, unlike my childhood reality. Your existence helps me shift my deeply ingrained perception from one of childhood aloneness on this planet, to one of feeling of connection to good human beings.
Just maybe, if we don’t foul our nest and kill ourselves off first, we might work it out. The following conclusion quoted from the World Happiness Report gives me room to hope. It imagines how to have the kind of world that I think as a child I expected to grow up in.
“There is a common social theme that emerges consistently from the World Happiness Report 2015. At both the individual and national levels, all measures of well-being, including emotions and life evaluations, are strongly influenced by the quality of the surrounding social norms and institutions. These include family and friendships at the individual level, the presence of trust and empathy at the neighborhood and community levels, and power and quality of the over- arching social norms that determine the quality of life within and among nations and generations. When these social factors are well-rooted and readily available, communities and nations are more resilient, and even natural disasters can add strength to the community as it comes together in response.
The challenge is to ensure that policies are designed and delivered in ways that enrich the social fabric, and teach the pleasure and power of empathy to current and future generations. Under the pressures of putting right what is obviously wrong, there is often too little attention paid to building the vital social fabric. Paying greater attention to the levels and sources of subjective well-being has helped us to reach these conclusions, and to recommend making and keeping happiness as a central focus for research and practice.”
I don’t think it is possible to teach empathy. I believe it’s potential is informed by the early memories stored in the subconscious. I believe we can ask the unconscious to share it’s stored information memories but not teachable. I am convinced the adult subconscious shuts out . negative comment.
I am not being flippant when I say I ask my subconscious for the location of misplaced item; lyrics to seldom used tunes….It never fails.
Larry: There is both a reluctance and an incentive for me to respond to this comment of yours. The reluctance stems from the fact that initially we may be mostly in agreement. The incentive arises in me in that I feel (just my perception) that you have not have stated it succinctly, concisely or briefly enough for it to make an impact.
I will take the chance here, in all my arrogance and conceit, to re-state what I feel is the ‘simplicity’ of the our human dilemma. Somewhere along our human evolution, we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’. I know not why, though Bernard Campbell, a Cambridge University professor of Anthropology in England, offered one possibility), .We then became what in psychology is deemed “Neurotic” Freud first coined the word; BUT, I contend, Janov finally defined it. In the simplest sense, this is our problem. Other that Primal Theory, no-one (that I am aware of) seems to have seen a resolution to the problem. Janov has stated over and over again; that until we go back and see the origins of that problem, all else will fail There are many out there seeming to offer a reversal of the dilemma/problem by social, educational or political means. I concur with Janov, none of this is EVER going to work.
Nothing more that an overturning of our defenses (by that magical process of “re-living”); will we ever effectively resolve it. On the individual level, I see only Primal Therapy achieving that. On a global scale I contend (again) only by the abolition of money … that firmly keeps ‘neurosis’ in place.
You have to admit, Jack, that it is your fantasy that we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’. You have no way to know. It makes more sense that we’ve been neurotic all along, that when we became the human species, we at the same time became a neurotic species. Maybe individuals of many or all intelligent, emotional, social species can become neurotic. It’s likely that our species is the only one that can primal.
Money is a useful tool. What we need to abandon is how we give it the power to rule our decisions, and instead give other factors precedence such as family and community well being.
It’s my impression that most on this blog would agree with you that overturning our defenses is a good thing. No doubt, even on their own insights from Primal Theory can change attitudes toward making better decisions to bring about a happier world.
Larry: No! I do not have to admit “‘that we humans abandoned our real nature” IS my fantasy. If we can cure it (change it) then by definition it’s not natural (our nature).
How long does “all along” constitute? All along through time? or. just from the moment that we become human? As I read Arthur Janov that is not what he believes. Freud apparently felt that way, but Janov argues otherwise and that, to and for me, makes WAY MORE sense. According Janov, as I read him, no other creature turns its young into neurotics. Some domestic animals; principally horses and dogs, can be made neurotic by our human INTERVENTION.
If money is a useful tool then why all the mayhem in the world, with starving children, wars, police brutality, billionaires whilst many go for a lifetime needing the basic necessities?????? If you and I are the lucky ones, able to have some; how come millions are unable to get their hands and this “useful tool”??????
I don’t see overthrowing our defenses as a “good thing” I see it, for me least ways, to achieving a life WORTH LIVING. I would insist a “NECESSITY”
Finally I am not promoting a “happier world” I am promoting a “FULLY FEELING-FULL ONE” Therein is a whole difference.
It has been part of my pacifying narcotic, the fantasy that we will ever recover that benevolent ” humanity,” ie: that it become the rule rather than the exception. I disagree that neurosis was part of the founding package. The science of brain evolution, as I understand it does not support that idea,
My up close time spent with various domestic and wild non human beings taught me that the human brain does not have exclusive potential for kindness, sadness, grief, mourning or planned revenge, in reaction to their real environment. Even being kind protective parents cross species. The abused ones exhibited some of my neurotic behaviors, subservience, cowering. Others were unpredictably given to striking out without explanation.
Disagreement is fine Jack. It seems though that I was misunderstood on one account. I didn’t mean to imply that neurosis is our natural condition. More and more what makes sense to me is that for as long as there have been humans, there have been at least some neurotic humans, maybe a lot of humans a little bit neurotic. Probably even before then.
I didn’t take you to mean that was a major characteristic of mine. I sort of knew what you were implying. However, just as you implied that I could not be certain of my notion; the very same applies to yours. No problem with that from me either. However, if I read Art Janov correctly, then you are also implying that it is his fantasy also.
I think you are telling me that Art Janov believes there was a time, in the early stage of our species, when we existed without neuroses, and generations/millennia later our species took on neurosis. If that is what Art Janov believes, then yeah I think he’s wrong.
But I don’t know what he believes. I’m just going by what you tell me. If that is what he believes, it would be interesting to know the reasons why. It is interesting to know the evidence, reasoning, and feeling upon which a belief is based.
Thanks for conversing with me about this, Jack. Not many people want to.
Larry: I am not exactly sure just where he mentions this, but if I remember rightly; he gives his reasoning. If I find it I will surely relay it to you to read for yourself. If anyone else knows where he stated it and can give the page number and book title I would appreciate that.
I sincerely hope you are able to get through this debilitating feeling of loneliness. It sounds daunting.
… “human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It’s how we get our satisfaction. If we can’t connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find — the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about ‘addiction’ altogether, and instead call it ‘bonding.’ A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn’t bond as fully with anything else.
So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection. ”
So in the absence of sufficient human connection, I am addicted to work and to this blog. I knew that. It makes sense. I know I need more human connection. That’s the hard part, because in striving for it, I run up against why I gave up in the first place on hoping to get it.
Vicki: Way too complicated. I read some of the article. It’s simpler that that. We only get addicted to “PAIN” killers. It’s pain that we’ll do ANYTHING to get away from. Yes Vicki, lack of connection, especially in early childhood, is painful, BUT keep it to the ‘direct’ cause.
Tom: I feel your conclusions to your observation was flawed; either that or you have a different definition of what constitutes “neurosis”. You were not in these animals heads. Janov defined it very, very simply
Oh, I took to it be saying just that, that we attach to the pain reliever, whatever it is, the chem narcotics being one. I had a friend who, between bouts of sobriety, used multiple substances but only alcohol would totally impair his functioning, and he used less of that in terms of daily quantity. Stoned on other drugs he worked, maintained personal and social contacts. “Why,” intrigued me.
Thanks for article, Vicki. It is always encouraging to read about a better take about people’s pain. Looks like a good start against just putting people in jail for their habits.
I agree with you Tom, that animals can be neurotic. I have a cat that shows her affection by biting. Never had that in any other pet. Maybe it’s because when at 5 weeks her mother and littermates were killed by the neighborhood big dog, and she cried for days hungry, before being rescued.
I agree, Sylvia. In PT, we often think of the lack of connection, disconnection, and inability to bond because we didn’t have those bonds in our families, as they didn’t care how we felt, and were disconnected from themselves and their own pain. But it’s good to see that concept and language in an article specifically about addiction.
And that cause sounds likely for your poor cat, as likely the worst experience she knows.
Just received this from my health mentor Dr. Peter D’Adamo, Connecticut Naturopathic Physician and Scientist. It is composed by Martha, his wife. Her mother, Mary was Russian born.
(Have to find a way to make this about me…. after my wonderful grandfather died, with the inexperience of an 8 year old, I set out to find his replacements, assuming all old people were kind. Being old, they all kept dying on me… david)
Mothering May 9, 2015 Healing, Inspirational, Martha D’Adamo0 Comments
The act of mothering is defined as to “bring up (a child) with care and affection; look after kindly and protectively, sometimes excessively so; to take care of, nurse, protect, tend, raise; to give birth to.
We’ve all come into this world through a mother, that woman we used as a portal for physical life. Some relationships with our mothers are deeply nurturing, close, kindly, and provide the emotional nourishment that allows us to grow into fully formed adults. Other relationships with mother aren’t so fortunate. Where the mother lacked an emotional connection, the child starved emotionally, unable to form that deep connection that allowed for emotional maturity, the ability to love and be loved, to deeply care for self.
Mothers come in many different shapes and sizes, and sometimes they come to us not through birth but through life circumstance, and those who “mother us,” raise us up, and nurture us may be older or younger than us and they may be women or men…or animals. The act of nurturing is not limited to one who brings us into the world, although having that essential first relationship in tact is wonderful. Yet it doesn’t guarantee that we will be emotionally balanced, loved throughout our lives or even happy.
I am very grateful for the mother who brought me into the world. She had strength of character, courage, strength, almost super-human powers at times, and vulnerability. Her given name was Mary, which has numerous meanings, two of which are “my beloved,” and “rebelliousness.” My mother wanted to be a rebel, but had the constraints of seven children, maintaining a household, limited resources, and the emotional inheritance she shared with women of her generation, which was that she had a particular place in society. Near the time of her death, she talked about this, about how she wished for more for herself, yet how thrilled she was that her daughters had the opportunities to accomplish that which she could not.
She also mused on how the tables had turned; once she had cared for us, and now we cared for her as she struggled with the aftermath of a stroke, with I might add, a great sense of dignity and her wicked Irish humor, which sustained her and all of us throughout her life and through her death. She loved that my two daughters, Claudia and Emily, would “nurse” her – bring her tea, read her poems, knit and crochet for her when she couldn’t move her hands, perform for her. It was lovely to witness, and it reinforced in me that mother is not just a noun or a name to call someone; it is a verb—for the act of caring, tending and nurturing another.
I have been so fortunate to have been mothered by many and to have mothered many, most particularly my daughters, who actually taught me how to be a mother, and they continue to do so every day.
I honor Mary, my sisters and sisters-in-law, mothers-in-law, my dear friend, Regina, my daughters, my husband, Peter (yes, men can mother! And some of them do it very well.) My puppiesJ and all of those throughout my life who gave me the opportunity to love and be loved, to nurture, and to grow.
Hi Vicki
I thought it was a great article. Incredible where you dig them out of.
As you know, my primary gripe about my life is that I didn’t get bonded to my mum, and possibly even to my dad. I often thought it was/is remarkable that I didn’t end up on drugs, or commit suicide. The loneliness that I endured as an immigrant teenager both in Europe and then Australia, was excruciating. I never realised till lately, that “perhaps” it may have originated much earlier. My mum was 18 when she had me. She fell pregnant soon after the war, when she was only 17. And then moved to Romania with my dad, thereby not having the supoport of her mum.
I agree with the content of the article. If you are not connected or bonded to people around you, you are doomed to be in PAIN.
See you soon.
Tom
When my friend’s kids’ hamster died, their German Shepherd, who used to carry the little rodent all over the neighborhood, in her mouth, laid by his cage and mourned for about a week. My male 5 year old Valley bull dog mothered 3 abandoned kittens, including letting them dry nurse on him. He had been badly physically abused before I adopted him; rescued from a stoning by a group of Reform Baptist church goers one Sunday, having been abandoned by a military family posted out, he was eating compost. Obviously they feel; understand human language and human intentions towards them.So they,too, can be injured. Not born neurotic.
When I began with horses, I learned it was smart to make friends with them; and that the really intelligent ones demanded being consulted not ordered about like idiots. Cats also demand that. A friend, who is a Reiki Master, tells me cats will not allow themselves to be touched by people who they sense want to overpower their free will. She says she trusted me because her cats and her Rottweilers accepted me, exposed their bellies to me, soliciting touch. If I could speak canine and feline I’d try to find out what’s really going on. Of course they might lie…. heh
My shallow foray into humor,again Jack “… they might lie.”. Exactly, they are as they are. I watched a big old momma cow last Spring urge a baby goat all the way across the pasture to his wailing momma. He moved grudgingly. She gently nudged him along with her huge horns, and with her nose pushed him under the fence back into the goat paddock to his mother. She uttered one MOO before returning to her herd. From age 11 – 17 we lived in the bush, April to end November. The wild beings there provided an amazing education. A few orphans, small and big animals, lived with us in our cabin until ready to go on their own.
David: It’s all a matter of what we consider a “lie” to be. This, for me, is the inevitable ambiguity of words. Animals as I sense it, don’t have words; just feelings that they express … appropriately … UNLESS there is some intervention on the part of us neurotic (unfeeling-full) humans.
I wish I could learn their languages as well as they do English. My eavesdropping Valley Bull dog has done things like go fetch a book I mentioned in conversation with another human. Mind you he didn’t go to the bookshelf and choose it by title, rather by me saying I left it on my night stand. So he heard ,”my book,” and ,” nightstand,” but had to deduce it was in our bedroom and that I wanted it. I volunteer on an Organic/ Byodynamic Farm. An intact 5 year old bull who was a buddy gored the thumb web on my left hand. I swear he showed sorrow when I showed him the bloody wound after I stopped cursing at him. Most would say I was a fool being in a pen with an intact adult bull. I was repairing his head lock, he stuck his head in and tried to look up to see what I was doing and to lick my salty sweaty arm.
> Sylvia,
> that poor cat!
> good she had you to understand her and see it the right way.
> maybe feeeling safe some of her true pain was allowed to come out.
> so good to imagine she did not get hit or something for showing her affection in her own way..
>
> my cat used to show hers in her funny own particular way, by running up to me specially after having enjoyed her meal, to sharpen her claws in my sneakers, while I was wearing them..
>
> it was clearly gratitude and affection, she sometimes did it completely out of the blue, without food, just in a spur of the moment impulse to show her warm feelings and appreciation to me..
>
> still miss her a lot..
> M
Thanks for posting this article Vicki. I like and agree with the message. I know I was desperate for connection all along – just used food as an accessible refuge for many years – as the emptiness was too much.
Hi Larry and Jack
Growing up, I always had a dog. When I got a bit older, I had pigeons.
Having observed those animals and pigeons through a number of generations, my take is that ” neurosis” as you guys put it, is inherent in every species, be it human, dogs, pigeons or fish.
As all species change over time for all sorts of reasons, part of a survival mechanism is in fact “neurosis”. if we were not able to become Neurotic, we would’ve died out long ago. And so would’ve dogs, pigeons, fish etc.
So, in my opinion, neurosis is good.
Tom
David: You sound just like my mother. She would just blurt out my name … all I was left with was:- is she about to tell me something?????????? OR …. is something I wrote causing an eruption within you???????????????????????????????????? :O .
Through my Naturopathic Association I received an invite to participate in a 7 Day seminar on, “Anxiety, Causes and Cures.” It finished yesterday and I looked in on the synopsis today. Except for the recommendation that patients be advised to find a nourishing diet and take regular, the remainder was either amusing or infuriating.
I read Tom’s comment and I was inviting your esteemed response, as in, ” I wanna hear how Jack responds to this bit of illuminative edification.” I had a huge grin on my face, and my gut is sore from laughing answering you now. david
Quote from “The Primal Scream” Chapter “The Problem” Page 20
“Genius that he was, Freud bequeathed us two most unfortunate notions which we have taken as gospel truth. One is that there is no beginnings to neurosis–that in other words, to be born a member of the human race is to be born neurotic. The other is that the person with the strongest defense system is necessarily the one who can best function in society”.
My dictionary gives the definition of neurosis as:- “a nervous disorder” If we wish argue the meaning of the word … that’s anogther matter. I take it from reading Larry’s comment that he does not consider it a ‘dis-order’. From Tom’s comment that “neurosis” is just some transient re-action. From David that he gets a great laugh from it all.
Mine, for what it is worth, is that neurosis is:- “The pathology of feelings” In other words that the EXPRESSION of feelings are dead. The feeling sensations keeps reverberating around in our bodies … causing any number of UN-NATURAL behaviors and/or ingestions that are detrimental to ones health.
Of course, I didn’t invent this all on my own … It’s how I read Arthur Janov. Who knows???? Maybe my reading is way off.
In your quote from the Primal Scream there is nothing contrary to what I’ve been saying. How you get the notion that I don’t consider neurosis a disorder? Your idea that “Somewhere along our human evolution, we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’.” is your invention. What the quote you presented from the Primal Scream says to me is that we aren’t born neurotic, which I and probably everyone on this blog agrees completely with.
Larry: Instead of asking me the question “How you get the notion that I don’t consider neurosis a disorder” clarify for me when, how, where or why we became neurotic, Then I would see what it is that you consider is “The Problem” that Janov was writing about.
Should you just prefer me to answer your question then I extrapolated (maybe wrongly) from you writing:- “It makes more sense that we’ve been neurotic all along, that when we became the human species, we at the same time became a neurotic species.” It was further seen by me that you were inferring when you wrote “What the quote you presented from the Primal Scream says to me is that we ‘AREN’T BORN NEUROTIC’, which I and probably everyone on this blog agrees ” Emphases mine.
As I read Arthur Janov (again maybe wrongly) he is stating that somewhere in our evolution WE BECAME NEUROTIC. It is my contention, purely mine, that that occurred some time between 20,000 to 30,000 year ago … assuming that we humans have been in our present biologic form for roughly 100,000 years.
So yes I do see a contradiction from your earlier comment to what I am now reading in THIS comment. Granted, I used the phrase “abandoned our nature”.
If indeed you do see it as a disorder, AND you also see that we became neurotic at the onset of becoming human. I can only assume that you see the human race as defective from the onset. Maybe your studies in biology corroborate that notion. As I stated, it would be clearer to me if you were to state what being human means relative to neurosis.
Jack I was not laughing at neurosis, or the concept of neurosis; I realize we do not know each other so I should not be so presumptive to think another should know my character including my sense of humor. I was anticipating how you might respond to Tom’s take on neurosis. I attributed to you an, ” Oh my dog, what next,” expletive. And that tickled my sense of humor, and that led to my, ” Jack???” as in go get him Jack. I believe you were the best to respond to Tom. All thought and said with respect for you and the, emotional self. I don’t use sarcasm. Old age has made me rather witty though. I don’t worry much any more about acting silly.
After reading the messages you write to folks on the blog I conclude that I like who you are, strong in what you believe, up front, and non vindictive.
I believe at union of sperm and egg we are destined to arrive in this reality untarnished perfection. I believe that injury can happen prior to birth. I believe that we all have a right to love, care, and respect just by getting born. When that is not forthcoming I believe the resulting assaults means our reality has to become altered to survive; to the rescue, our childhood savior, repression; and, the result, neurosis.. If that band aid is not sufficient to salve the pain, psychosis.
I ‘m 69 years old. I survived dire poverty, physical, verbal, and sexual abuse; and several attempts by my mother to kill me. She complicated that by telling me her horror stories of abuse, further cutting me off from feelings. My father was a brilliant, gifted, mega talented man who could not remember we needed wood for heat, and food in the pantry. I had a wonderful but very elderly live in grandfather. He died when I was 8. There was no positive social set to offset the shit. I aced music festivals and oratory competitions. That just got the shit kicked out of me by age mates. I started a rock band, but knew I was no good at it regardless of what was said.
Perhaps out of my own need, During my Social Work practice I didn’t know how to help everyone referred to me but I could at least love and unconditionally accept them, per their birthright. Living and working in a small rural area you better not be a phony.
I have received cards and letters from children, youth, and old geezers like us saying that was how I made them feel. One girl wrote that I was like a mother duck, taught her to swim and kept watch while she achieved independence. A once enormously suicidal person wrote that she was stunned when I offered to sit with her so she didn’t have to die alone if she really believed she needed to die. Also that I was the only male,” helper person that didn’t screw, ” her.
I received a fair bit of criticism from some colleagues who thought I used people with the, ” respect gig, ” because I was needy. I never needed however to move in their ranks. I only once ever answered that slander. I said, and I still believe it true, I didn’t need to believe that I was all that; didn’t solicit or feel gratified by all of the adoration, but the youth I worked with did. It made them feel worthwhile that someone they construed as being all that always had time for them and kept their best interests front and center. Sometimes the best I ever did was to provoke a kid by caring to tell me off so they could experience standing up for themselves; and learn that you can’t lose a friend by doing that.
And I always taught them to master chop sticks. I’m proud of that sneaky bit.
My self image, I’m the ugly faced, fat, liar, stupid, kid that nobody wants as a friend or to dance with, just as my mother said. And when I believe that someone is going to see that, I get fucking terrified.
As I was writing this the boyhood friend I have for 59 years mourned since age 10 when he moved away, came to visit, unannounced. I hadn’t seen him for 34 years, June 27, 1981; the day my 4 year old daughter died. His 3 year old son was also in hospital.
He was telling his wife about what a brilliant talented kid I’d been. I wanted him to shut up because it was a lie and him lying meant he was never my friend. Phony. His mom was an English war bride; very erudite. Briefly, I once heard him during a play visit, in a conversation with her, he was crying, saying, ” David’s my best friend.” She answered, ” You’re not friends with him, we just feel sorry for those kind of people.”
hurts like hell, david
David: Wow … I liked your comment, and particularly what you wrote about me. That made me feel real good.
As for your humor, I needed to read your comment twice before I got into the gist of it. My kind of humor is somewhat more primative. Eg. “Oh! my god, what the fuck next”, but then I came from that hell hole in the dreary industrial north of England, where poverty was the norm, and primative humor is the only way out. I actually didn’t think you were laughing at me, but it wouldn’t have mattered even if you were.
You said a great deal in this comment about yourself and your child-hood. I found it very interesting.
I don’t know you either David, but to tell you a little about myself I am an 82 going on 83 year old old gay man … more arragant and conceited than most, who loves blogging and saying his/my ‘party piece’. I love people (though few love me … not surprisingly). I love animals, but I am utterly stupid when it comes to plants and languages, and that incluides my own … English.
There’s more of the ugly about me and quite a bit of the bad about me, but for the life of me I can’t remember the good cos, the short term memory is on the blink. Ah well!!!
Here’s one for the books Jack, the Primal Books that is, ha!! I had not looked at your blog photo with my glasses on until yesterday. If that is you at 82-83, holy shit, you’ve preserved incredibly well. Anyhow, without glasses you looked like my male nemesis prototype, slim faced handsome, cocky, jocular grin, the face of that popular, athletic, snotty guy(s) that shit all over me and got the girl. And so that old demon on my shoulder condemned you. Man how that shit fucks up our lives and narrows the field of meeting interesting people. Or as my past wife choices show also allowed me to naively let some unsavory people fly under my spidey sense and into my intimate space.
I sometimes wish I had a nasty bone i my body but I don’t; at times my worst fault. I’m sure I can come off as arrogant/opinionated. If that means sticking to my values and facts I accept, I guess I am. david
David: I have to admit that, that picture was taken some 5 years ago. But in all conceit I do feel I look good for my age. It’s my mouth and my writing that put most people off … and oh! … the farts.
I began coloring my hair when it went white. I stopped last fall when my stylist said how much she liked white hair; and now even the 50 somethings treat me like I’m irrelevant old guy, call me dear and hon in stores, and not with studly intent…My neighbor offered to carry my garbage today. I may go back to being dark blonde again…
Hi Jack, Larry and the new kid on the block, David.
I disagree with all of you.
And the reason is that you all assume/presume that our beginning was a blessed one, that we started off somehow in a state of bliss.
Far be it from the truth, Look at people with all sorts of genetic disabilities. Look at people with mental disabilities. Cerebral palsy, autism etc, etc, the list is endless.
Look at a baby born right now in Nepal. Or a baby born in Nigeria, or North Korea, where babies/toddlers die of starvation.
Where was their blissful beginning? Did they all have terrible parents? Un-feeling mothers and dads? I don’t think so.
I think that besides the “nurture and or nature” discussion, ( which we are not having here, at the moment) there is the ” circumstance” to your beginning.
Were you born in Africa a couple of hundred years ago, when your tribal leader sold you off into slavery? Did mummy and daddy not love you then?
Or were you kidnapped by people for various nefarious reasons?
I think, that you need to put that into the equation, besides how was your beginning and birth. You could’ve the best mum who did everything right during your gestation, and who went on to give you the best birth on this planet. But if all other things/circumstances don’t come your way, you are there to face a life of PAIN.
By my discourse here, I am not marginalising Primal Theory nor Therapy. It’s the best. It resonated with me, as it did with most of you. That’s why I upped and went to LA, 7500 miles from Sydney, taking my family with me, uprooting all of us.
On a more personal note, Jack, you are unique. In my mind, you are a true Primal Warrior. Keep it up. I like that you don’t take anything lying down.
You Larry, when you write, as I said many times before, you take me to an other place. I can always feel you when you write.
And last, but not least, the new kid on the blog, DAVID. Remarkable. Coming out from your corner and barring yourself in front of all these peons. Congratulations. Neither you dad nor your mum have any idea what they missed out on. All the people that you touched through your work, were very lucky. You were indeed a blessing to them.
Now that I got this off my chest, I have to address my demons and write to you about them.
Sleep well, all of you.
Tom
Not just to add another oar in the water, Larry; but regardless what you meant to say I interpreted it as you saying you believed we are born neurotic; I read Tom as saying the same about non human animals. There’s some education involved there on brain structure that informs the lack of validity of that assertion.
I know because of my conversational writing style I am not easy to correctly read at times, too; but somehow, maybe just the way you write, it reads as if you flip flop several times on the same topic., from reply to reply. Probably just me.
That is interesting David. Actually I also perceive you to flip flop.
I guess it irks me if I feel words and ideas are attributed to me that aren’t mine. I guess it makes me feel misunderstood. I grew up misunderstood, so it bothers me when people misinterpret who I am and portray me as someone who I’m not. When it happens in the present I try to let it go, except for people who are close to me. My interaction with Jack yesterday didn’t get anywhere except to fill my loneliness, The interaction with him was pretty much the only significant interaction I had all day.
On the neurosis discussion, I assumed that the meaning of what I was writing was obvious and I didn’t go into detail, but looking back I can see where some of my words could be taken in different ways. So even though it feels like a lot of work to try to clear up a misunderstanding of me, I’ll try again just because I don’t like being misunderstood,
Like others have said here, I feel we aren’t the only species who exhibits neurotic symptoms. I see that all of us, humans and other species, aren’t born automatically neurotic as if by design. We are designed to survive, and to survive optimally we are designed with potential to be healthy. Whatever species we are, I see that If we got all the love, caring and nourishment that we needed, there would be no neurosis, and vice-versa, neurosis sets in if and when our reality of not getting what we need becomes too painful.
I believe that the more behaviourally and socially complex the animal species is especially in the upbringing and care of the offspring, the more the possibility for something to go wrong and for deprivation and neurosis to set in. I believe there were neurotic individuals in our non-human ancestors and in our human ancestors, because I don’t believe they all had perfect childhoods where all their needs were met. Deprivation could even begin in the womb, for instance if the mother is undernourished. I feel certain that at least some of our early ancestors were deprived of at least some of their needs and grew up neurotic because of it.
Human childhood, a time of exploration, learning and development is exceptionally long. There is lots of time for something to go wrong, for deprivation to happen before the person becomes a fully formed adult able to take care of themself. The human being, and especially the human brain, is incredibly complex. The more complex something is, the more opportunity there is for something to go wrong. I don’t see how our ancestors brains and their childhood development would be more robust than ours. I don’t see how our early ancestors all lived in perfect conditions that gave all of them perfect childhoods where they got all that they needed. I believe there was sometimes deprivation in the time of our early human ancestors just as there is in our time. Some mothers are better at mothering and others are bad at it no matter what time you live in.
I see that we are a species capable of deep empathy toward one another. We had to develop that sensitivity toward one another to get along and co-operate together in groups. If we hadn’t, we wouldn’t be here. We are especially vulnerable without each other. We are especially vulnerable to deprivation. I see that neurosis has always been our curse when our needs haven’t been met, since the beginning of human beings and even before. I guess that is my sticking point with Jack. He feels that neurosis set in 20 – 30 millennia ago. I’m not saying his is wrong. I’m presenting a different view, that we’ve always been susceptible to neurosis, just like we’ve always been susceptible to infection and disease. I’m not saying that we are automatically born neurotic, but that we have always been susceptible to becoming neurotic if our needs aren’t met.
I suspect that probably when we became large in number, when there were too many to feed by hunting and foraging and we leaned toward domesticating plants and animals to feed ourselves, at time when studies reveal we were undernourished, when we formed large permanent settlements and rigid social hierarchies and a less-well-off underclass of oppressed people doing laborious, tedious, repetitive agricultural work, might have been a time that gave rise to a culture and conditions that fostered neurosis and increased frequency of neurotic individuals in human populations.
Just by way of a change of subject, I feel is perhaps very relavant … especially in view of Larry’s comment (May 10 @ 11:16 am).
He commented, and I quote:- “I guess it irks me if I feel words and ideas are attributed to me that aren’t mine. I guess it makes me feel misunderstood. I grew up misunderstood, so it bothers me when people misinterpret …….”. I too as a child felt very misunderstood especially by my ‘daddy’. However. I did get what I felt was understanding from ‘my Granny’, and to some lesser extent by my mother. I spite of that, I still had this urge to be understood by my ‘daddy’ and struggled for it. It did seem to me that my bother (the one that has just died) got all my father’s attention; mainly because he was into my father’s sport (Rugby League). I hated it and saw little point of all those grown men running around in short pants trying to get a mis-shaped ball into the opposing team’s goal area. For all my struggles it did not occur to me then, to become a ‘Ruby fan’.
In my 30 some years of my therapy I have felt and cried a great deal about wanting ‘daddy’s love and understanding. Such that now I care little if I am misunderstood … with the exception of those I feel real close to. my Jimbo, my nephews, some nieces and my remaining sisters. There is no-one posting on this blog I feel that close to; so! in that sense, I no longer desire that I am understood. Craving for it, for me, is to contiue with that old struggle. I am delighted that I have reached this stage in my therapy.
So why am I posting this comment. For the most part, I wish to show that it is possible to trancend being misunderstood. However for those that never got any understanding; perhaps even from friends … it must be incredibly hard to go through all that. I was lucky … BUT I do feel it is doable/feelable.
Any species can be injured emotionally. But if we accept the premise that neurosis involves painful memories in our subconscious where the worst are fortified against conscious recall by the process of repression, from where they direct our behavior then the brain involved must have evolved to the point it has conscious and unconscious/subconscious, ” compartments.” I have lived with wild and domestic animals, companion and farm. Ritualistically abused I have seen fearful beings, some who cower, some who lash out. I have not seen planned revenge or manipulation.
Tom: It’s fine by me that you disagree with me, but when you wrote “you all assume/presume that our beginning was a blessed one, that we started off somehow in a state of bliss.”, I cannot speak for the others, but for me I do NOT feel that our human beginnings were a state of “bliss”.
My assumption is that it was a state of ‘feeling-full-ness’. A state of bliss is something, I feel, can only be transient. For me, that state happens when I fall in love, when I have a very exciting experience, go to a very, very beautiful location, and sometimes in the presence of an adorable child or animal. There maybe others, but off hand I can’t think of them.
Just to elaborate on how I assume our beginnings occurred:- I feel that it took quite some millennium to transition from the monkey (or whatever we were) to our present biological state. Even though since then, there may have been some minor biological changes.
However I do also feel very strongly that some 20 to 30 millennium ago there was an ‘relatively’ abrupt change that took place, due perhaps to us leaving the then current environment (my feeling the tropics), and venturing into colder ones. That necessitated an adaptation to this new location and it is there that I feel (solely my feeling) it precipitated the advent of neurosis in that there was some neglect to the NEEDS of our young.
From there-on-in a chain reaction was set in whereby we now became viciously territorial and persisted in anger to the point of violence, and that state of being has remained ever since.
Since neurosis (as I see it) became the ‘modus operandi’ by those humans in the colder environments they inflicted it upon all other humans they came in contact with and that included those that stayed in their/our tropical regions.
Of course, all this is MY reasoning’s, opinions, ideas or whatever. I have no proof, nor do I feel it will ever be provable. It will forever remain speculative at best.
On reflection; on making this comment … who am I trying to convince? Maybe daddy OR, could be myself. Just another crazy aspect of me.
The,” Primal,” beginning was still absolute perfect potential. Injury can occur in utero; and many brain injuries occur just prior to or during birth. We can certainly emerge from the vaginal canal injured, emotionally, mentally, developmentally and physically. Very briefly, the method used by the Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential to allow brain injury to heal, one I must add I have personal professional experience with, is based on beginning at the developmental point that the injured child’s brain passes all competency tests. Ie: it is fruitless to reteach a 10 year old to read if he is left spastic by the brain injury. Only because I do not know who knows what about competency development; there is a term , encephalocaudal sequencing of development, defined, everything starts in the brain, crawling, rolling, talking and moreover one skill is built on the other. So they challenge the brain by mimicking every thing the child went through to having arrived at becoming the healthy normally functioning 10 year old he was before the injury. Not unlike Primal Theory and the systematic resolution of pain , as I understand it, in order to achieve sustained change. I recall some of the times I got all thrilled ,hyped up, by feeling something out of sequence only to crash into feelings of further proof of me being a failure when change didn’t hold beyond a few weeks.
I have watched the Institutes method reinstate all of the skills, a healthy brain, as existed before the brain injury, whether sustained in utero, during delivery, or after birth, nerve blindness, deafness, muteness, intellectual handicap, cerebral palsied, ADDHD, Autism, one a veritable vegetable neurologically, following a drowning.
However I have never seen that brilliant method change hair color, make straight hair curly, an Aussie child emerge a Russian speaker, a Greek child become genetically Japanese.
So I gather that only injuries can be reversed. Injuries are something that happen to us not part of our innate structure.
> dear Tom,
> thank you for caring enough to ask, that really means much to me and actually triggered me.
>
> I have had a very hard time.
> specially the first two weeks after losing my cat were so painful.
> the feelings that came up were so much worse than anything I felt before, this was the first time it felt like pure and agonizing pain. before old feelings always had a taste of relief to them, of finally things falling into place, which kind of overruled the old grief, turning it into healing.
>
> the feelings triggered by having to let go my dear cat, were nothing but pain.
> am crying while writing this.
>
> they are in the present, and they are dealing with the horrible finality of death, of losing something so very precious, the unique presence of one particular fellow and very dear companion I shared my life with for the last ten years.
> I have always felt so very protective about her, which of course made it all the more painful to work through the trauma of the whole episod of having to agree with the decision and trying to make the goodbye ok.
>
> so much sadness.
>
> at the same time I had to deal with feeling let down and hurt by someone I expected more support of, , and had to try and deal with tose feelings and that situation as well as I could..
> tried to avoid a struggle that might cause me more hurt, and managed to reach out to someone else.
>
>
> I am still working my way through this, got good help from Gretchen and Barry , .
>
> , but don’t want to go into this here.
>
> I know I have not been hurt intentionally, but I feel definitely hurt, as also after reaching out while already feeling very bad, I felt more hurt by the response, so my only healthy reaction seeemed to get out of the situation as much as possible.
>
> all the pain is slowly getting less intense though there is still a lot of it right under the surface, which can be easily triggered again, by for example just talking about my cat and mentioning one of her endearing and sometimes very funny behaviors..
>
>
> slowly I am picking up my life again, am in touch with a lady with two cats with kittens, will visit them soon, and gradually work again on prparing my statistics exam next month..
>
> so well, under the
> the circumstances I feel I am making the best of things, but still carry a lot of sadness around for the moment.
>
> won’t be at the retreat, but still feel very connnected with a number of members from the primal community.
>
> M
Glad to hear you Margaret. I feel your description of the agonizing pain of loss. The finality is so hard to accept. It’s so huge. If it’s any help though, I find that a little at a time it can be let in.
not just because my bitch mother died just a tiny bit early in my life, but because the minute i start listening to music and give myself just the tiniest of tears and/or pleasure, maybe i can make it through the next week, or even the day. The minute i start, z says we going out to eat for mothers day, even though the kid took her yesterday and did that, even though the old dog’s pain has taken a new turn, and he cant be left alone at all, so lets find an outside cafe on mothers day so i can bring the dog and then drive down to long beach to z’s mother’s cemetary, hours and hours in the car with the stupid fucking dog, and now i cant get overtime and now the fucking secret society masons at work have bent me over backwards and shot it up my butthole, which may be fine for the gay community, but it reminds me too much of an early assault, and chest pains coming all the time now, fuck this shit baby. goodness gracious.
> well, animals do sometimes ‘lie’ and have their own kinds of ‘vocabulary’.
>
> crows so far are known to have at least 50 different sounds, which clearly stand for different things.
>
> and occasionally one ‘smart’ for
>
> row intentionally uses the sound for ‘alarm’ to make the other crows fly away, when he spots a ymiie piece of food. by making g
> the alarm sound he can safely eat it all by himself, or herself..
>
> those kinds of behaviour are also spotted in other species.
>
> some behaviours are part of the genetic imprint, like birds pretending to have a broken wing to make predators follow them instead of finding the nest with the young.
>
> one of my former cats used to put up a big show when laying on the table, ‘accidentally’ near the part of the b
> table set up for breakfast, with a nice slice of ham or cheese.
>
> she would start yawning theatrically and then start stretching ‘casually’ to then gagain ‘accidentally’ stretch one of her paws right up to the yummie piece of food, and then fast as lightning claw it away from the tray and run off with it..
>
> it was very funny to watch, and he knew very well he was supposed to stay off that part of the table, haha, but his show was good enough to let him get away with it a few times!
>
> M
During a trip into the bush, we, our bunch, heard animal noises and upon investigating we watched a group of crows holding ceremony for a dead crow. They walked around the body making sounds we hadn’t heard from crows. When they finished they left.
> David,
> the few occasions I (almost) stepped on my cat’s tail, or toes, always lifting my foot in time warned by her loud scream of alarm, the cat always noticed I felt very distressed about it, and ran up to me while I was saying sorry to her, to reassure me by rubbing against my legs, clearly to let me know she knew it was just an acccident and no need to feel bad about it!
>
> there are so many many ways all animals communicate, with each other, their own specie
> es, but also with other species including us humans, which I think they often consider a bit thick or dumb..
>
>
Wow, the blog has been so active I can hardly keep up. I think the origin of neurosis for us as a
species will remain speculation. I’m sure that wild animals can become neurotic but I would think that would have to effect their ability to survive and reproduce, and so they probably wouldn’t be around.
Maybe in past centuries some of us wouldn’t have survived due to our neuroses. We would have
maybe died during birth along with our mothers, or have been more susceptible to childhood illnesses etc.
Being neurotic doesn’t seem to have effected
our “success” as a species. Success meaning we reproduce and pass our genes on to the
next generation. Evolution works at the population level and doesn’t have much to do with
the “quality” of anyone’s life. We compete well with other species, too well.
Modern civilization has maybe changed the equation as medicine can keep us alive even being
neurotic. Maybe someday primal therapy and theory can be embraced to improve more people’s lives and reduce the craziness in the world.
Phil
David, I think this is easily seen with some of our pets which have been abused, although I think domesticated animals might already be somewhat neurotic in that they have lost their ability to live in the wild. But dogs, on the other hand, seem to have evolved to live with us. I think abnormal dog behavior can be observed. For neurotic dogs I’m thinking of ones which are very skittish and leery of contact, due to having been beaten by their owners. I assume that wild animals which lose their mothers will be neurotic. Experiments done with rats taken from the mothers shows them to be different (neurotic) because they weren’t licked etc. by the mothers. These are rats in cages and maybe not in a good environment but I think it does show something. Animal neurosis doesn’t have to exactly correspond to human neurosis. Higher mammals all have similar brains to us, although lacking expanded areas where higher thinking takes place. Neurotic animals behave differently than non-neurotic ones is what I suppose. They don’t relate to others of their species as they should. Can’t do much about it I think. We have enough to worry about with our own traumas. If the human population could heal I think that would go a long way in helping both our domesticated animals and wild ones which share the world with us. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:07:28 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Barbarous maternal deprivation experiments with Chimps clearly showed they developed Failure to Thrive Syndrome symptoms, pining, depression; began relating to inanimate objects, strangers, but not their mothers when reunited. It’s believed that proximity releases the pain of the original separation.
David, It sounds like those chimps in the experiments you mention had good mothers and when reunited with them after the traumas inflicted were able to “primal” it. That’s my interpretation. There was no need to organize a chimp retreat. What do you think? Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:58:12 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
No, Phil, like human babies so deprived that they develop Failure to Thrive Syndrome to survive the pain of emotional needs not being met, the damage was permanent. The conventional treatment is to find alternate caretakers for those children. Placing them back with birth parents after their health and development normalized resulted in , ” failure,” resuming.
Art wrote about, ” primaling, ” Rick , once, when he was a toddler.
I could walk onto a pediatric ward and go to the Failure to Thrive child without being introduced.. The injury was written on their faces.
I wonder among animals if their are examples of fathers having a role in the rearing of the young. It seems to me we really need both parents, and having a village helps too. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:07:28 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
David. That’s interesting and unusual. Those were lucky kittens! So, you let your dog take responsibility there and didn’t chip in? Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:46:14 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
According to a recent APTN documentary it’s not so unusual. My Bull buddy, Max, was badly abused by stoning at the hands of a group on their way to church. He was brilliant intellectually, had an astounding receptive vocabulary,and was a kind pacifist to a fault. If his Shih tzu brother got hurt rough housing, Max would back off until high strung aggressive Jake calmed down and then very clearly apologized. His face showed concern. My first dog pal, Rex, a bull shepherd mix jumped into a fast moving current emptying into the Minas Basin to rescue an injured red fox. Once ashore the fox confronted Rex. Rex circled him, lunged, firmly grasped the fox’s tail and held his hind feet off of the ground until my father could secure the injured fox. No aggression. He kept vigil at the fox’s cage until his leg was healed and he was released. An orphaned fawn we raised 7 months and then placed on a sanctuary, traveled about 40 miles to come back home. One morning there he was curled up in the porch with Rex.
Out of the spirit of being honest, Max would run to the door, and , ” Woof,” and when Jake went to investigate the cause for the ado, Max would run back and steal some of Jake’s food. And ,I once pretended to be hurt,on a bush walk to see how they might respond , and they didn’t give a shit… hah !
Animals in the wild were video documented responding to the distress cries of cross species babies. Wolves are known to be incredibly developed in parenting.
I recommend, ” Never Cry Wolf,” by Farley Mowat.. It made me weap, the , ” humanity,” of wolves.
When we first began living in the bush my mother was afraid. My father said, ” The only animals to fear were the ones who walked on two legs and any others they domesticated.”
Oh I was the guy who found them, Phil, brought them home and initially bedded them down on my bed with hot water bottle and a key wind clock to simulate a momma’s body warmth and heart beat. They had to be fed unpasteurized sheep’s milk with an eye dropper with a soft pipet. Old Max stood guard and when they went to the floor he took over the mothering. Well I did prepare the meals. I never felt comfortable letting Max use sharp knives and appliances. I know, I know, I’m a HELICOPTER PARENT, with a RESCUER OBSESSIVE NEUROSIS.. I detest stock phrases but, ” My Bad!!”
During my rural social work career I probably rescued and adopted out well in excess of 100 dogs and cats, mostly abandoned by military families posted out at the end of the school years. Favorite drop off method, as diagnosed by my Vet friend, throwing out of or off of moving vehicles, depending on the size of the poor dears.
I developed an even stronger assuredness for the validity of my practice of Homeopathy, treating their various injuries, scrapes, fear…. No placebo explanation, I reasoned, with babes and non humans
> I would think animals that dream probably also have a subconscious.
> in any case for all species most cognitive processes are mostly subconscious, only a tiny part of them is available to our conscious mind, and even less to our conscious control..
>
> M
Don’t know if this relates to the question about subconscious, but 2 of my adult dogs, one past and the present one exhibited the sucking reflex while asleep as if a puppy nursing. One part of brain was active without their being aware. I found it fascinating.
> I think there is a whole range of different responses possible..
>
> maybe those dreaming dogs suckling were processing some feelings, animals definitely also act them out occasionally, and sometimes they just express them loud and clear.
>
> the last time I left my cat with my mom, a few years ago, for a couple of weeks, upon my return, she came up to me, and for a whole minute loooked up to me meowing in a whole range of different and very expressive ways. I could distinguish sounds that seemed to simply ask ‘why?,’, and ‘how could you?’ and very plaintive meows, also then some indignation, and on and on. this was the first time I had tried to let her come to me instead of immediately going to look for her.
> that was because every year I left her at my mom during my trip to L>a., she seemed to get more pissed off on my return.
>
> the first year she was simply very happy to see me again, ran up to me, jumped on the couch and put her nose against mine, and started to tell me a whole story, and enjoyed being cuddled right away.
> the next year she was cross for a while, and every year it got worse, to the point she actually hissed and clawed at me for the first few hours. but it occurred to me that was because I went up to her while she was still hurt and angry, so that last time I allowed her to take her time and come to me.
>
> so she did, after a little while, and expressed this whole range of feelings, and believe it or not, five minutes later she allowed me to caress her, with just afterwards when I tried to do so again, a halfhearted hiss as to say, mmmm, still a bit pissed off, but well…
>
> so allowing her to express herself to me really made a huge difference to the years when she actually even scared me a bit with the amount of her anger and frustration.
>
> all animals are different, but being really attentive reveals so many similarities we all share to some degree as well..
>
> also with horses the interaction can be fascinating, respect and trust being key words, come to think of it, adding love and care, that goes for all of us doesn’t it?
>
> Phil, I enjoyed reading the long comment you wrote.
>
> I agree that if we’d all be more feeling the ways we treat our domesticated animals, and the wild ones, would change drastically.
>
> can’t stand the way animals are raised and slaughtered on industrial levels, it is a disgrace to humankind.
>
> M
>
> is there a sudden silence on the blog for the last say 12 hours or is it the mails not being sent?
> probably just all busy doing other things?
> had such a fine phone session with Gretchen, all the pain about my cat and about feeling other kinds of hurt all poured out of me almost instantly.
> it is so good to be able to let this happen and to get feedback that feels honest and reliable, thanks Gretch!
> felt huge relief, but woke up again feeling down, but during the day again began feeling how a lot of pressure had dissipated and things had fallen into place.
> there remains still a lot of sadness to go through, but the insecurities have been well addressed, and that is a huge burden off my chest.
>
> and Phil, thanks to you as well for your support!
>
> have ordered a spring cleanup service for my place, will let them do everything I cam possibly think of, including washing curtains and stuff like that, now is the time to do it, no feline around looking for open and normally forbidden doors inviting to explore the wide world behind it. a big fear otherwise, cat sneaking into stairway and so onto street or even in huge basement, brrrr…
>
> also ordered a new tiny device that can do an enormous number of complicated and useful stuff, download all kinds of formats and turn them into speech, record classes or music or memo’s and download audio books or courses, and allow me to edit them in all kinds of ways.
> of course a huge and complicated manual comes with it, I don’t particularly look forward to learning again a new set of instructions but hey, at some point I should start being glad to have it at hand..
>
> used to work with a larger and much more simple device using Daisy formats on cd, but they are not made anymore, so am obliged to go with the digital latest versions… a pain at first, but step by step I should be able to work it out..
> only starting it up takes already 35 pages of instructions..
>
> Guru, where are you and how are you???
>
> so well, just felt like chatting a bit I guess…
>
> the kittens I am told are growing well, have to be patient!!
> this weekend will meet a fellow student that will soon get her bachelor, will get togehter with her for the first time, and she has two cats, so hurray, will be able to have the pleasure of caressing their soft fur and play with them and hopefully make them purr and maybe sit on my lap for a while!!
>
> hope the blog catches up again, M
Margaret, I’m glad to be able to help. I guess what happened here is the discussion about neurotic animals came to an end. Have you picked out the kitten or two that you want from the litter? Phil
I decided NOT to respond to these question as to the possibilty animals having a subconscious or that they are capable of neurosis in the same sense as human neurosis. Primarily because I dont feel I have enough experince with animals, only some cats and one dog.
What I am inclined to see and feel, by reading these latter comments, is there seems to me to be a tendency to characterize behavors in animals and relate that directly to behaviors in us humans. I see that as crooked thinking a la Thouless. I personally see another creature being skittish as merely expressing fear.
I personally find most of these comments to be unscientific, unresaonable, illogical and/or, even irrelevant. It is an extrapolation methodology that I find flawed and capable of directing our thinking and reasoning, into convuluted and complicated conclussions. It sound good, but is it??????
It relates to what I feel and find is taking place in the study of cosmoplogy. Seemingly, there is an attempt to find evidence out there in the cosmos of another intelligent being. The assumptiom, as I see it, is flawed in, that we have assumed that we are intelligent (far more advanced compared, than any other creature on OUR planet). Advanced in what sense? I strongly refute that notion.
That idea suggest to me, that another creature on another planet to be as neurotic (fucked- up) as we are, and is unthinkable and worse irrelevant. I base my idea on what my dictionary defines as neurosis. Said another way … I feel the discussion is off on a tangent .. that reveals nothing useful.
Agreed. But the kindness including cross species kindness I have witnessed makes me wonder if they have superior qualities. I , too, think their confront or run responses are in the moment feeling reactions.
End of my contribution to variations on this theme, which I fear I stirred in the beginning. I wondered what and why opinions were out there.
Jack, The dog which was beaten and treated cruelly by his master, later, in a good environment still exhibits fearful behavior. Has it learned or been trained according to behavioral theory. No, I tend to think it has been made neurotic. I don’t see why that would be crooked thinking. We are not that different from other animals, especially mammals. Phil
Phil: As I understand the disease/discomfort defined as neurosis, I do feel that some domestic creature are made neurotic (lacking their natural expression) by human intervention. In particular the horse, and some highly trained dogs (for our human use and/or entertainment). There may be others that I am not mentioning here.
I am not sure if the dog in question is neurotic. From my reading of your comment, it seems to a greater extent that it has learned to express fearful behavior (under what circumstance you did not state). That is not, as I see it, neurotic.
The “crooked thinking” I refer to is to extrapolate animal behaviors and correlate them with human behaviors. That kind of extrapolation according to my reading of Thoules IS “crooked thinking”. That extrapolation does not stand up to any more than a vague opinion. Science; demands a greater indulgence and peer review scrutiny.
Jack, you seem to agree here that certain animals are made neurotic by human intervention. Why would it only be humans capable of making animals neurotic? On the other hand, in your earlier message, you said you didn’t think that animals could be neurotic. So which is it? Or maybe I haven’t understood. I see no reason why animals, especially higher mammals, wouldn’t have a subconscious if we have one. The brain structures correspond. Animals are used all the time to help study human conditions, so that wouldn’t be an unusual type of extrapolation. We hold similar views on primal but I would point out to you that it is not peer reviewed nor really scientific. So I wonder about that as a point of argument from you. I did a Google search on neurotic animals and there does seem to be opinion supporting that notion. Not all wisdom comes from the book of straight and crooked thinking, (which I didn’t understand to be a textbook of scientific method), or Art Janov. I’m not wedded to the idea of animal neurosis and you could be right, but I’m not following your reasoning. Phil
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:43:51 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: It is my contention (solely mine) that animals can be made neurotic, but only through human interverntion. If I did indeed write that animals could not be neurotic; then I mis-wrote. My intent was that no animal left to it’s own NATURAL upbringing would ever become neurotic (given that it was not traumatized by us humans … later)
The next arguement you profer “I see no reason why animals, especially higher mammals, wouldn’t have a subconscious if we have one”. From my reading of Art Janov and his deliniation of Primal Theory … the subconscious is CREATED at the moment of trauma; when there is the need to block the overwhelming feeling. Blocking off; is what creates the subconscious. To corroborate this I see the purpose of Primal Therapy is:- to bring the subconscious back into consciousness. The subconscious in this context, is something that is CREATED in order that the overwhenlming trauma does not kill us at worst OR, drive us totally crazy (schitzoid) at best.
That animals are used in laboratories to study biology, and hopefully be able to extrapolate our finding (rather our idea of our findings). I would have thought:- demonstartes my notion of “Human Intervention”.
Final point (my developed notion over a period of more than 30 year … and yes that is me with the remnants of my neurosis) Talking (the use of language in a ‘pathetic’ means to convey expression of feelings) AND writing is a neurotic ‘act-out’. Since I love blogging and blogging requires me to attempt to portray my sentiments (feelings) on matter that interest me BY writing. I am, by my own definition, using a neuotic technique to express my sentiments. Said another way “head tripping”.
An addendum:- Way before I read “The Primal Scream” I read “Staight and Crooked Thinking” by Robert H.Thouless (origianally written in 1930 and reprinted in 1954, which is about the time I first read it. I was impressed with the book; one of a few books that I found extremely impressive. I tried from there-on-in to be as straight a thinker as I was able. However on reading Janov’s first book in 1973 I saw that thinking was using only half my brain. The other half was my feeling brain. Having spent many years as a thinker and thinking at the time it was the way to a better living ‘modus’ I found it hard to totally let go of my former rationalizing self. But I will keep on plodding. My last two years ‘New Years Resolutions’ have been to do more expressing of my feeling, AND way less thinking. Not easy … old habits die hard.
Jack, What I wonder; if an animal’s natural upbringing is disturbed, by the loss of the mother for example, what effect that would have. In theory it could produce “neurosis” or whatever you want to call it, as seems to happen to mice or rats under human care, when the mother is removed. I remember reading about animals given an artificial furry milk dispenser in place of the mother. They reached adulthood but had problems. In the wild maybe these animals wouldn’t have survived.
With writing, such as here on the blog, part of the connection is missing but I wouldn’t necessarily call it an act-out. But in person I’m sure we could reach a more satisfying understanding. Phil
Connecting here has made me realize how much I act out with words; act out a whole lot more than I would have thought. just thinking out loud, I realize you all appreciate, but not acting,;eg:defending is also acting out.
Pigs are very biologically similar to humans; allowing some pig parts to be transplanted into humans; which is why epigenticists say pig is not fit for human consumption. Consider the number of religions that forbid eating pig, including christianity; or the old testament
selection at least. There must have been a lot of years of observation for primitives to have reached that conclusion. Humans eat anything advertised now with the right sugar salt ratio to flavor.
Being afraid is normal, not neurosis; agoraphobia and claustrophobia are; Anger is normal,not neurosis; a compulsion to strike out indiscriminately is.; Sex drive is not neurosis, needing to have sex with every person we know or use it to salve pain is.
Neurosis is a symbolic behavior in defense against excessive psychobiologic pain. Neurosis is self-perpetuating because symbolic satisfactions cannot fulfill real needs. In order for real needs to be satisfied, they must be felt and experienced. Unfortunately, pain has caused those needs to be buried. When they are buried, the organism goes into a continuous state of emergency alert. That alert state is tension. It propels the infant, and later the adult, toward the satisfaction of need in any way possible. This emergency alert is necessary to ensure the infant’s survival; if he were to give up hope of ever having his needs fulfilled, he might die. The organism continues to live at any cost, and that cost is usually neurosis–shutting down unmet bodily needs and feelings because the pain is too great to withstand.
I have hired professional grandparents to hold and rock twenty four hours a day severely emotionally deprived / Failure to Thrive toddlers who were dying because of that emotional abuse at our Provincial Children’s Hospital. I have done touch therapy to try to coax toddlers who were victims of , ” Hospital Syndrome,” back into this reality; and counseled the parents to deal with the rage and hate aimed at them when the child began feeling again. It took years to convince hospitals that no child under 14 should be admitted without a parent living in with them full time and to commence soliciting feelings from accident victims at point of admission or as early as possible.
Can’t say I ever met a non human animal who exhibited survival behavioral response to cope with unmet needs.
Hi Phil. Poor dog and sheep. In regards to your wonder about the dog reliving its trauma that caused shyness; Maybe under the right circumstances they can. I’ve read on Janov’s blog where he tells a little about a rescued, frightened dog of theirs. He said it snuggled in his armpit and whimpered and cried like a baby. He does not go on to say anymore (like if it became less frightened over time.) But I recall in some of the primal writings where a dog after a veterinary procedure, once home and secure howled, presumably about its experience. I’d like to think they can get rid of their pain too.
You asked before if in other animals the father helps in raising the children. I’ve watched a few gorilla videos on line and the male silverback will care for orphaned, weaned gorillas. Birds, male and female, I think, share in the feeding of the young.
HI Sylvia,Interesting, maybe we could act as therapist to our pet dogs and catsbecause, as our domestic companions, they can have a certain levelof trust in us.Maybe this is related to the process of animal domestication in general, removing them early from their parents, besides controllingbreeding to emphasize desirable characteristics. We becamesurrogate parents. Apparently very few species can be usefully subject to this process.Phil
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:51:15 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I have a sad story to relate about cats. Quite a few years ago when we first moved to the house where we are now, we got two young cats. My wife grew up on a farm where animals were not allowed in the house. The only way I could convince her to get a cat was because of mouse catching ability. Some rodents were eating her flowers outside the house. I said the solution was to get a cat. We ended up with two. However, they could be either outside or come into the basement, but could never be allowed in the living quarters.
This arrangement didn’t work out. One of the cats never really got used to us at all,
it was fearful. One day when I started my Jeep in the garage an accident took place.
Missy had been hiding in the engine and was fatally injured by moving parts in there.
I buried her in the backyard.
The other cat, Minnie, often disappeared for long periods of time. It turns out she was
staying at our neighbors house where there were better accommodations.
We got Minnie back but that didn’t last for long. One day she left and never came
back. For many days I went out walking and driving around but could never find that cat.
My wife still has nightmares about Minnie running away. My younger son always
wanted a dog but couldn’t have one due to this thing about not having large animals in the house. We did have good experiences with hamsters, turtles, and fish, however.
Phil
A long term Canadian wolf study showed that a number of the male wolves in a pack do not mate with females and take on the role of nannies when the rest of the pack are on a hunt. Farley Mowat says they are enormously kind and demonstrative to their young.
Thank you, Phil. I must admit I’d have to review the posts to figure out why I started this in the first place. I will suss out the links you so kindly provided. I don’t know about subconscious but I am convinced dogs, cats, deer, cows, horses are incredibly intelligent in reasoning, and developing understanding of human vocabulary. I injured my spinal cord last October and have not been able to work on the farm since. It’s a working farm not a place to hang out, so today is the first day I have been back there. I got out of my car and called across the field, ” Where’s Davey’s girl?” I saw a head go up and across the field trots Tara and sticks her snout through the fence for a nose kiss. My buddy says I shouldn’t talk about this relationship anywhere a psychiatrist might overhear… hah
So I know she has long term memory.
Jack, We are probably done with this topic but I had a few more thoughts on it. And that is how we are different from animals; our thinking capacity, straight or crooked. But neurosis is a disorder of feelings not thoughts, isn’t it? A key question would be, do animals have feelings? I think they do. Humans, no doubt, can be neurotic in a greater variety of ways and with more complexity as compared to animals. For animals maybe a different word should be used for the disorder to make that distinction. All of this is just my opinion, subject to change and not scientific. Phil
Phil: if you have more thoughts to comment upon the matter, by definition, it is not “done with”
Maybe I read Arthur Janov all wrong. That aside for now, I read neurosis as either or both the feeling sensation (relegated to the subconscious) and/or the EXPRESSION of that feeling. “Two components” if my memory serves me correctly. If you are not, as it seems to me, talking about both these factors, but merely just mentioning the feeling sensation aspect of a full-feeling; then we are more than likely to be talking cross purposes.
Just to clarify my notion. Thinking; disconnected from a feeling, is a factor of neurosis. The brain is:- as I read it, an organ solely meant to organize the expression of the feeling and then appropriately re-act to it. All the rest, language, mathematics, and the rest of our need to be taught (as opposed to being allowed to learn) is part of that process that we created; in order to NOT feel the unutterable feelings due to our rearing both in early child-hood and utero.
If we do not come to some understanding of what is meant with words then we are on the path to MISUNDERSTANDING of one another.
Jack wrote “I personally find most of these comments to be unscientific, unreasonable, illogical and/or, even irrelevant. It is an extrapolation methodology that I find flawed and capable of directing our thinking and reasoning,blah blah blah……………..”
Now there’s a guy on a roll………………….4 ‘un’s and ‘in’s in a row……………I can see why he does not want any ‘intellectuals’ around…………..he wants it all to hims\elf…………..no ‘pretenders’ to the throne he is the TRUE Keeper of the Crypt and he wants to keep it that way…………….get out of the way all you ‘pretender’ intellectuals I am the REAL intellectual………………he chides people for being ‘in their heads’ but what is he?……….well ‘in his head’ of course…………of course like most things he takes after his ‘guru’ Janov who also derided all ‘intellectuals’ so his ‘mock intellectualism’ could be the one and only one………….come to think of it is that why he objects so strongly to Guru calling himself the ultimate and superstar guru…………..there is only ONE true guru………………Janov of course but Jack is SO close to him his reflected glory shines on him………………he is an ‘obedient’ little Lucifer no rebellion from him……………..just kissing the ass of what he perceives as authority…………an authority who will have little if anything to do with him……………well one time he said his ‘book’ was OK……………………..
Whoa…. some say this is a just a comic act , you and Jack, between two good friends. If so have at it if it entertains you. If not,it is a bit of violent vitriolic diatribe which I find disturbing. Doesn’t do a thing for me in terms of ferreting out my buried stuff. Patrick just for my edification what have you done for humankind that comes up to the bootstraps of Arthur Janov.?? I don’t know perhaps you are the current personification of messiah. I saw through that silly god story when I was 12.
Your Janov is not my Janov; ie: our impressions of the man. You apparently have done a live autopsy on the man so that you know his most personal thoughts, his motivations, perhaps even better than Mr. Janov. does. Do you not find that troubling. That would not be indicative of fabulous mental health. If this coming from your Daddy stuff ?? I wonder if he slanders you? Oh that’s right, he doesn’t know your exist. I’m sorry that hurts you.
David – I do not NEED to know his “his most personal thoughts, his motivations” but I DO see and have seen his ‘results’ or his ‘works’. By their fruits you shall know them and please leave out your amateurish attempts at ‘psycho-analising’ me……………..have you not learned anything or very much……………of course like most ‘primallers’ you are very much stuck at first base…………….that is part of the program……………keep people forever not grown up and forever needing ‘therapy’……………
You are certainly compelled to tell us all the real truth and the whole truth, oh wise one. That biblical crap is very mature. And if this is not a friendly comic routine then you have an apparent obsession with Jack. Being so opposed to Primal and full of hate for the guru why do you shop here.? Your conclusions are not borne out in fact. No, no; why am I debating the unarmed ?? I should be ashamed. Actually I was a professional psychotherapist. I didn’t do that shit to anyone then.
>
> Phil,
> not yet, the lady says they are still to small and the cat mommies too protective for a visit.
> but maybe next week or so she will let me know when the time is right for a first visit, look forward to it of course.
> seven kittens, and probably all gorgeous and endearing!
> will try to keep it to just one, might give the vet a call first to make up my mind, two is nice but can also get more complicated..
> i am home a lot of the time so there will be plenty of company, and hopefully cats don’t mind to feel they are the only feline ruling the place..
> M
Below is something I read this week by a guy called Jon Rappoport which I found interesting and it seems to me true of the way the world is going………………..
“To place every person on the planet into a cradle-to-grave system of diagnosing and drugging vaccinations and interference.. To make every person, first and foremost, a medical patient. To thereby condition every person to obey orders.
Obey.
The doctor knows. Don’t question him. Just do what he tells you to do. Comply. From now until they lower your body into the ground. Take the drugs, and become more debilitated and, therefore, more obedient at a much deeper level.
This is the foremost system of eliciting obedience in the world.
We’ve recently seen the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, issue a dictum about vaccination. Former exemptions have been canceled. Families receiving government aid will be cut off from that money if they refuse to vaccinate their children. No more freedom.
Obey or else.
When you can get citizens to obey in one area, there is a spillover to other areas. They become accustomed to a life of surrender. They give in. They go along. They yield on one front, so they yield on another”.
That’s fine David………………I do that to people it seems…………..probably because I very much reside in my own reptile brain…………..the part that says ‘give me mine, don’t take it away from me eff the guy who might do that etc etc……………..I like the way you can check yourself……………if EITHER Jack or I could do that it would not have gone on so long……………..the reptile brain is very concerned with SURVIVAL…………..that’s me all right…………
Reading your words of comment to me brought out in me something I later recognized from youth, put a third, outsider, in with me and my best bud, and we verbally ganged up on him, had sport with him, shat on him. So that’s what I wanted to do to you, dump on you with insulting comments for insulting, “Primal.” The safety offered by teenage ganging up by two’s or gang is replicated by the distance and anonymity of this gadget.
I think that’s where my, ” great defender,” “dave the brave,” behavior came from, started about age 14. At age 14 I threw a hung over man, a stranger, out through his window because he was threatening more beating to his bruised wife and his daughter. Like some Charles Bronson character I then went outside and stood over him listening to him curse and threaten me and hoping he’d get up and challenge me. I had 14 years of hate I guess I wanted to take out on him.
Until now that story was known only to that family, the delivery guy I was working for, and me. All these years I was rather proud of how brave I had been, Humph. Not sure how to see it now.
Sober,or less so, I always could be pushed or led by the ear, remain good natured, with no resistance. In either state if I saw someone else being bullied I was all over it, naively without regard for my safety, physically and legally.
I would never want to be the coward who closes his shades when a person in danger is outside screaming for help.
But there’s a line isn’t there ??
David – I like the way you ‘cop’ to things………….if you hang around here for a while I wonder if you still will feel ok to do so. I hope so but well let’s say I have my doubts. Another ‘ironic’ effect of ‘primal’…………………..and to be clear my ‘doubts’ are not about you it’s more about the ‘environment’ (here)…………..
Yeah it’s as cannibalistic as the Association of Professional Social Work tribe and the legislated Naturopathy hierachy. We espoused on unconditional acceptance, respect, blah , blah, and then feed on each other to gain favor of the political handlers. I was hated by the bureaucrats. I used to delight looking into their eyes when they were forced to say something nice about me in a public forum.
I assumed as we evolved, moving , ” Towards a Primal World,” and hopefully attaining such community; we would heal to a large extent, live in loving harmony with one another, and if we still needed to shit on anyone we’d collectively and in concert rage against the bastards who damaged us and be tolerant for each other’s foibles, presuming they don’t include wantingly harming others, and feel sad for one another. That’s my Utopia.
Spinning of the accidental thorns of people going their own way can be a blessing, a tool for further release of pain. Deliberately setting out to hurt someone is just plain fucked. No role for me in that family dynamic. I had a full childhood of it. I as the only surviving sanity out of that mess, bar my wonderful grandfather.
My sibs are born again christians or alcohol addicts. They tried to convince me that I was broken and an embarrassment because I am neither. I save money because I don’t have to pay to belong to either of those country clubs.
Shit all I ever wanted to do was love and let love. Beats hell out of looking over my shoulder for the next nut with a perceived score to settle. fuck, i did it again , pontificate, puff and blow..
Cheers ( my youngest brought that home from his years,”abroad.” hah; good kid.)
.
Hey All, I really need you to ” rat out” your fellow retreat participants and let me know who has a birthday that falls during the week of the upcoming retreat. You can email me at primalinstitute@gmail.com – Thanks, Gretch p.s. Nice to have you joining us on the blog David 🙂
Long time since I sat in your presence. Your kindness and competence are legendary. That guy you hang out with is not too shabby either. hah
Mary, you may know is a psychologist in Colorado; her sister Theresa is a Doc of Naturopathic Medicine located near me.
> hi Phil, and Sylvia,
> the male seahorse, don’t know if it is the proper name in English, this tiny animal with a head a bit like a horse’ and a curly tail with which it holds on to branches of seaweed and stuff, well, they take over the eggs and young of their wifes and keep it in some kind of pouch and take care of then, kind of a surrogate very good mommy role.
>
> and to be honest, I hope there is no need anymore for more animal experiments about neurosis, I always get very distressed when reading about them,many of these experiments are so cruel.
>
> Phil, that is a sad story about your cats. it is a surprise your wife still has nightmares about the cat running away, and not about the other one in the car..
> hopefully she has again found someone maybe providing her with a lush personal pillow on the couch smiley.. cats tend to get a bit opportunistic on this level..
> M
Not to detract from the deserved solemnity of your post, but reading the first line or so, my silly brain wrote, “… no Margaret, not called a sea horse in English, that’s a “tony abbott.” Don’t know where that came from ? sign of a sick man, I’m sure.
Then I read further and I withdraw my satirical substitution, because by all reports Australian PM, Tony Abbott, does not have any care or concern for other than his white republican social group, even the vulnerable young
Forced to live with or at the mercy of humans is perhaps the most prominent experiment. I doubt if my best effort to be a surrogate family mate was ever good enough. I was likely more the recipient of good fortune than they.
> David,
> don’t censor yourself too much, so far I enjoyed reading your contributions.
> we have all searched how best to deal with some of the occasional vitriolic verbal diarrrea occasionally dripping over the blog.
> you are doing fine so far im ny opinion, standing your ground with reasonable and sound arguments and a touch of humour.
> M
Margaret – I can’t help but feel you are referring to me……………..I don’t like that……………I have given you my ‘apologies’ or at least my ‘explanations’ more than once…………….yet you CONTINUE your jabs…………….you have had your session with Gretchen now try to put a bit of what you learned into effect. I will not be just a punching bag for you I can imagine you feel so ‘justified’ but I as I have told you several times have a different take.
When I see you ‘sizing up’ a new little cat it seems to be here comes another ‘victim’ a victim that will be shot full of vaccinations and drugs and ‘interference’ and ‘love’. Your kind of ‘love’ something to keep you from feeling alone someone who will not be remotely allowed to be themselves – a cat – something to be ‘vaccinated’ against meeting other cats…………….anyway I am going off again but it pisses me off you continue your jabs (both meanings of the word) and nonsense…………
Also I don’t get the feeling you have ‘learned’ anything from you last experience you will do the same again with your new cat…………….including your cute little ‘final act’?. I still don’t like that but it seems it’s all about you, how to salve your loneliness, the cat is just a prop…………….I know I have an ‘issue’ with this……………what is ‘love’ is it as it seems to be for the most part ‘selfish’ I suppose it is maybe just my ‘stupid’ Catholic upbringing taught me it was something else………………..
Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms.
The Catholic Church has paid out billion$ in settlements over the past decade to alleged (my emphasis) abuse victims. There’s no denying some people were sickeningly abused, but how do you ferret out the false claims?
Anybody can say anything, and if I was a janitor working my ass off for $10 an hour, for example, it could appear mighty tempting to lay a false claim against a neighborhood priest that he did something bad to me as a child for a quickie million dollar settlement. (Equaling 100,000 hours of janitorial work…50 years full time manual labor in exchange for blurting out “he abused me!”)
Gold diggers are always attracted to the latest gravy train.
Guru – you make a good point there. I grew up Catholic including 5 years in an all male boarding school,run by priests I am NOT recommending that but I never was ‘bothered’ by anyone either another student or any of the priests in anything of a sexual nature. Neither did I see or even hear of any ‘abuses’ of any kind
Again just my experience but I suspect a fair amount of these ‘claims’ now may be motivated by money or at least in part by money. Like you say if someone’s life is not going so well…………hmmm maybe I was ‘abused’ a bit this could be money…………….
I assume it was David who wrote though it said ‘anonymous’ but from the context I am pretty sure it was him.
“Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms”
I really don’t like that kind of talk. Well maybe just leave it at that but I really don’t like it. Some people even say a lot of “Jewish” lawyers got very rich ‘dismembering’ the Catholic Church
Hello Patrick, No, this didn’t come from me. I always own what I say, as outrageously silly as it may be sometimes.
“Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms”
That sounds like vomitous non directed rage; you know, off the chart fury but not able to direct it at the deserving target of the rage..
Do you think that state could be a component of targeted but random mass murders: eg: the school shootings.
I did have professional contact with a number of RC and Anglican priests in the 70’s and 80’s who left their professions, who disclosed that they had been sexually abused in seminary by the, ” old priests. The clergy of all stripes show up in forensic studies as high on the sexual perversion and abuser scales; doctors a close second. By profession, doctors and professional police placed highest on spousal abuse and spousal homicide. Psychologists and Social Workers scored tops
in poorly controlled spending and consumer debt.
We treated sexually abused ,”children,” of medical docs including, psychiatrist and pediatrician.
David – hmmm I wonder who DID write it then? I guess ‘un-focused’ rage could end up anywhere school shootings included………….one thing that strikes me about Catholic Church abuse is like in Ireland now and for the past 10 years they endlessly beat themselves up about it, the people in general I mean, endless ‘guilt’ about it and it’s like they can never flagellate themselves enough about it but what I notice is there is very LITTLE discussion about how to ‘solve’ it. To me there is an easy answer to that allow priests to marry…………that is basically the root of the problem But it’s interesting to me how people rather than ‘look forward’ to a solution they would prefer to endlessly wallow in the past………………I even relate this to ‘primal’ and I mean in my own case. A strong tendency to ‘look back’ and beat myself up rather than well you know……….
(Jack to be clear I am really talking about myself and maybe why ‘primal’ appealed to me so much – there really is no need to ‘defend’ your/the Faith)
The whole sexual cleric predator gets popularly dumped on RC priests. In my professional experience I found it to be ubiquitous throughout the clergy married and unmarried; also the Roman Catholic married deacons. Children were not the sole victims but also age 16 + and mature female parishioners. The RC priest and church residential school abuse experience here is that the victims are primarily boys, both pre and post pubescent. Not just abuse but murder of children occurred there. The pedophile and sexual predator priests were not attracted to same sex adult relationships.
I had one priest come out to a parishioner, whose husband physically abused her and ritualistically sexually abused their daughter for several years, that he had sex with a woman lover when he was out of province on vacation. He potentially exposed himself to punctuate sexual normalcy, something that was eluding her because of abuse and religious conflicts.
His bravity raised him high in my respect.
While imperfect, as is any rule, one consideration when investigating is that people lie to get out of trouble, not in it. Outing oneself as a victim especially by a man against a man is to mark yourself forever by a segment of society as also being a pervert. The cross examination is no picnic. That said ,since adults know about sex it is easier for them to fabricate a story about abuse. Although it would be tough for a man to describe the emotional and physical experience of being anally raped if it hadn’t happened. A good psychopathic actor could pull it off. Most reporting victims of clergy abuse are male. We have had accusations against nuns. One was convicted of horrendous physical assault and humiliation of girls. It is believed she murdered children. In another province a huge case against Nuns began, and suddenly disappeared when reportedly enough money made it go away. During my practice it was impossible to gain prosecution of female sexual abusers acting on their own. Society was not ready for that blow. It’s believed that only sexual abuse by a prominent care taker can explain certain later behaviors. The lack of reports of these abuses by males is explained by that it usually ends around age 4. If the male child refuses he can’t be intimidated into having an erection. We all know know how tough it is to access those early memories. And our society does not have much love or tolerance for their act outs, delinquent behavior, youth homelessness, child prostitution.
One of the failures of Right to Lifers, their vigilance ends with delivery.
I established case law to allow me to hire lawyers to be present during proceedings to protect children as young as 8 from being further abuse by crown and defense counsel.
Oddly I have found who profoundly believe on the gravy train opportunists theory and those who warn us to be on the lookout for them have been the ones with their snouts deepest in the trough.
Not to pile on, but I have thought for the past 40 years that it is an injury to companion animals to separate them from their parent(s) and whelp mates at the conventional age. Separation from mom is understood by us all I think. Separation from whelp mates means cutting them off from important relationship experience, rough housing, normal mouthing, chewing on sibs, conflict resolution. I’m amazed more don’t act out with aggression towards us stead of in with passive or obedience behaviors.
Enslaved peoples don’t revolt and commit genocide against the invaders or slavers; historically they self harm and create expression secret to their group. White north america’s survival particularly as power broker is a case study in point.
Not to try to paint me as a higher life form but the only time non humans who lived with me went to a vet was in case of severe injury. That’s also the only time this animal goes to an Allopathic doctor/MD. 69 now, I’ll report on how that worked out in another 30 years.( huma). I learned at great tragic cost to canine I adopted. The contract required that he be castrated before release to my home. I spent enough time with him at the shelter what kind of guy he was. What I received after surgery was an intellectually brain damaged boy. Research / Dr. Andrew Pitcairn; uncovered the cause. Vaccinations given at point of surgery cross the brain blood barrier, piggy backed on the anesthetic designed to do just that, and poison the brain.
Natural approaches to healing and a home prepared mock natural diet were followed. The same with the farm animals.
Shit, there I go, at the pulpit again. david the wise… Totally quiet for long expanses an then, pow…
I always gritted my teeth listening to my father’s soliloquies. They were deathly embarrassing, even more painful than his unspoken hate for me. It was worse to me that people would judge him a fool.
Now I do it….
At the risk of gratuitous comment, Mr Bear in the wild has survived as a species without a vet. His only real threat is us.
To , ” quote, ” ??? Pink Floyd, ” Peoples, leave those kits alone.” Lots of abandoned and seniors facing euthanasia needing a home to escape the NEEDLE available for adoption..
We all need some salving; at least this,”we,” does…. That may be what we get from a healthy relationship. Just sayin’ man…
>
> David,
> I can relate to some extent to what you say, but only partly so.
> I have talked about this before here so will try to be brief.
> I do not want to go to breeders for a pet, and join the commercial circuit of breeding design animals.
>
> but adopting a stray cat’s kitten is merely providing a safe home for an animal already there and needing one.
> it is a win win situation, not all cats are so lucky to find a home with a great outdoors that is free of cars and coyotes, but mine has cought her fair share of mice here and enjoyed that.
>
> if we wait ten to eleven weeks, the kitten or puppy seems to be ready to explore the world while bonding with a new companion, curiosity prevailing over the old nest’s familiarity.
>
> it is in many ways a natural thing, we had cats when I was young, outdoors and occasionally indoors as well, and the mother used to chase the young at a certain age to go their own way.
>
> I carefully watched my former cat when I got her, had waited about ten weeks, before taking her with me to her new home, and I asssure you, she was really at ease and happy and adjusted instantly.
> we were a few people watching her, while she did the tour of the place, exploring all the corners in a quick and smooth check-up, and then she jumped onto the bed and curled up very much as to say, mmmm, purring and graciously accepting all the smiles and sounds of admiration and approval, to then go for a delicious nap.
>
> she used to sleep cuddled up in my hair, once in the palm of my hand, and bonded rightaway with me as one more big almost furless cat that clumsily walked on its hind legs, but that was ok otherwise.
>
> she showed her affection in many ways, got a lot of care and attention, with me being around almost all the time, and well, I am sure she had a very happy life really, not as a cat in the wild but as a domesticated cat.
>
> i am sure it would even be better if I’d have a large garden, but still, she could go out on the terrace and roof and caught a couple of pigeons even, which luckily she released spontaniously when I approached to check out what the racket was about..
>
> I have heard your words, given them some thought, and then thought of and remembered my purring cat cuddling up against me, and felt she liked me, liked her life and was happy.
>
> not a perfect life, I agree, feel bad about not having been able to let her have her own kittens, but that is reality too, there are too many already, who sadly enough often end up in much worse circumstances.
>
> believe me, I am concerned with what is right and what is not, so don’t feel I have learned or gained anything with these comments, that are not helpful in any way to me.
>
> that is probably not their goal anyway, just saying.
>
> I am glad to say I follow my own conscience and feelings on this one, and the cats as far as I can honestly observe then while I do my best to provide them with a happy life, and make it as fullfilling and pleasant as possible, within my possibilities.
>
> maybe look at yourself instead and check if all is so perfect there?
> M
Hi Margaret. Reading about the care you have for your cat reminds me. The lengths I’ve gone to over the years for cats. Once I tracked down, or tried to, a mother cat the day after her giving birth in fear she would not return to her newborns. I got to know the whole neighborhood by way of my cats. I ask, “have you seen my tabby cat and if you do she answers to ‘Elsie?” The neighbor gentleman said “no, but I’ll remember her name because that’s my wife’s name.” Finally Elsie came home after hunting.
I’ve had 3 week old kittens lose their mom to the hi-way, and we bottle-fed all 5 babies. I taught them to hunt rats by shining a light up the wall of the barn and up they’d go.
Recently with my elder cat (the biter) I’m having to change her diet because of kidney problems. I thought she might be diabetic, but okay so far. In my research of diabetic cats it is not an easy or pleasant life for them with the glucose testing and shots.
I’m glad you are doing better and am always glad to find you here. Your future kitty will be very lucky to have your care.
S
Sylvia, I agree. It is abusive what has been done to animals to satisfy neurotic humans. Did you construe I was advocating supporting breeders ??
I am a “student” of Dr. Andrew Pitcairn teachings. I would never order a breeders’ cat or dog. All of my non humans family have been rescues, orphans, including the horses that would have gone for meat as they failed the highest working horse gradings. They were too intelligent to be subservient; marvelous to get on with cooperatively when their intellect was respected.
Hello David. I think you meant your comment for Margaret. Welcome to the blog. Looks like we all are in a dance of getting to know one another. A growl here, a sniff there (as dogs do.) What a pack, huh
Oh, “dog,” the small dogs and cats who manage to crawl under the lattice border of the deck to make toilette. Savor that hot July day lingering olafactory memory. hah !!
Wow that last line is a 6 yer old poorly veiled warning shot over my bow, Margaret. Does anyone call you M, or Mag or Maggy or Peggy ??
Patrick is correct, you do come in sneaky and nasty when you sense an afront, I was not attacking you. Just sharing my well informed information. After completing my doctoral degree in Naturopathy, I took studies in animal development and care from the perspective of a practitioner with a Phd in Animal/Veterinary Medicine, and decades of experience in wild and domestic animal care. He noted he never treated a wild animal who had any of their domesticated descendent’s diseases and affectations; nor fleas and ticks problems; no matted hair that plagues my well groomed long hair calico, Mao, every spring full name Mouse y Tongue ( Mao zedong ???); who has never met a rodent she didn’t befriend. Needs to be reeducated, I know.. sister of Mitsu, the wise and loving, Moishe Patch Eye, the inventor, Mouse the Silly, and ” M eye Five” their fierce mother, who only is friendly towards me when no other cat is in sight; all feral, who chose to come in an open door and stay. I’m their house staff.
Some thought comes from the accepted animal science rule, when I studied, that at 1 year of age a cat has attained the brain maturity of a 5 year old human; the social capacity of a teenager at about 12, and stalls there. I would never separate a 5 year old from his mom. I would offer up to any orphan, with no one else though.
I have personally seen what happens to the children sent off at age 8, 10, 12, to strangers, to pursue someone’s dreams of becoming a, musician super star, ballerina diva, sports celebrity, modelling sensation. I wept for those babes and the families they would someday go on to create,their parents blind to the harm they were doing. to their babies. Another example, the residential schools, the publicly funded and the privately purchased, by the wealthy, torture chambers. A S Neill documented that tragedy very well. And it has always struck me that his
methods of therapy bordered on primal for children. What children’s psych unit would pay a nanny to keep a child clean who is defending by defecation and not reprimanded; and, then to go further by paying the child when he did a really big shit in his underwear. The modern geniuses would put him in a secured by locking device disposable diaper,a behavior modification program ,and meds.
We of all people should know what happens when we fuck with nature. I’m a reasonably high functioning example. Like the white skinned mulatto, you’d never pick me out in the crowd of “whiteys.”
The concern for happiness, if you like, of all living things has been a facet of this imperfect me. I tear when I see road kill. Someone’s natural destiny was stolen.
My ex-wife once said it didn’t make her feel special being so well loved by me because I loved everyone and everything. Odd that was what initially attracted her to me. hmm.. A better shortcoming than abusing, I figure.
I wrote a large sample group of human adopters in 1989. I asked them to describe their adopted children, placed with them between ages of newborn and three years. The response painted an astounding picture, for me. The children over 3 months of age when adopted were described as being essentially identical to their older birth sibs; having had no interaction for more than a decade.
Patrick: in response to your May 14th 3:37 am comment I get the feeling that you love to dole out the vitriol, but it seems you get really, really upset when someone merely just hints at your imperfections. AND I am not the first to mention it
Just a hint from “The keeper of the Crypt” If it seemingly hurts you that bad … how about checking your dumping on others?
I have heard two explanations of what is love:- the first came from some little girl when one of the muppets asked that question “What is love?” and the little girl replied “Hugs and kisses and a warm feeling inside” That really touched me. The other was a little more ‘academic’ and was words to the effect:- When allowing all NEEDS to be met.
There are not a lot of needs in order to survive in relative comfort. If I remember them correctly they were:- to be allowed to breath freely, to be fed when needed, to be kept warm and clean, free movement, touched and/or held and freely express what we feel.
As I understand it, there is the that other use of the word, when used with:- “Falling in LOVE”. I think perhaps that is what you David meant with “…. a second hand emotion”. I would prefer to use the term:- ‘the other second meaning’.
T’was my SILLY GENE jumping into the driver’s seat again, Jack. I have not viewed the video yet. I was nudged to recall a Tina Turner song, ” What’s Love Got to Do With It,” that quote is the 2nd lyric line in the bridge.
I have the fondest and most revered place inside me for the faces of love. The greatest gift I ever received was being permitted to be a caretaker of my babes. My youngest, Rachael, died at age 4, after open heart surgery. She would have been 38, May 24th. Her favorite song was Ms Charlie MacLaine’s, ” Surround Me With Love,” offered at full volume while , ” accompanying,” herself on piano., ” Whatever comes I’ know I’ll make, because you surround me with love.” I thought my great love would guarantee her survival. I was wrong. I should have sold my fucking house and taken her to Russia for the surgery. Her surgeon suggested I should seek psychiatric help when I started crying when we met to discuss ,” her file,” 6 weeks after her death.
I held my tongue because my grandfather taught me never to debate an unarmed man.
She brought out the best of my humanity. I miss her.
>
> just for all other reders of the blog, although I don’t think anyone or almost noone is that stupid to not know this, the friend I was disappointed in I mentioned when talking about my session, was definitely not Patrick, ha!
>
> the only frase exchanged about him in my session was that it was a relief not to have him on the blog for a while.
> and mahybe just a few more words like sick and crazy, haha!
> M
Margaret – I did not ‘assume’ either that you were referring to me……………I am not that presumptuous but and maybe I am wrong I DID think you were referring to me with this
“we have all searched how best to deal with some of the occasional vitriolic verbal diarrhea occasionally dripping over the blog.”
Were you? it’s a simple matter only you know what is in your mind. A ‘yes’ or ‘no’ would be nice. So no need to be ‘cute’ about it. Like when Otto (I think) compared me to his dog there was a bunch of ‘speculation’ from you but HE never answered. So much for ‘primal straightness’ a value more honored in the breach than the observance to use an old phrase
And speaking about ‘verbal diarrhea’ to use your phrase isn’t what you wrote kind of an example of that? I don’t like the way you feel free to write all kinds of crap on/about me but you are so ‘precious’ about any criticism of yourself.
As far as you getting a ‘new’ cat I notice there is already a vet on the scene, proving ot me you have learned nothing, you will do the same again torture and hurt the poor thing for what you think is right for it and you will ‘finish it off’ too if you decide that’s what’s good for it. So check yourself a bit, I know you feel in the majority here……………….does not make your ‘right’
Patrick, About your brother’s sheep; that isn’t any kind of experiment. It’s like a smoker saying he doesn’t think smoking causes cancer because he hasn’t gotten it yet, or that he knows a smoker who lived to the age of 90. Pretty much a worthless random observation. Phil
SHIIIIT !! Jon Stewart is leaving the Daily Show. They may be looking for new writers and faux, ” correspondents.” Break me up .
Are you and Jack the same age, Patrick. He mentioned in a blog working with you years back with one of my early LA employers, Mike Lewis; the rat !! I try to convince myself that my brain is not atrophying with little brain games, occasionally, like driving through LA. I think Mike Lewis’s street name started with, “C”; but that might represent some other word that came to mind when I read his name. If I was an artist I could paint his house from memory.
Here I go…. I felt this great bit of hope and comfort when Rory ??? told me he had referred me to Mike Lewis for more frequent work than Rory had to offer. I had a friend back here named Mike Lewis. Our kids played sports together. I coached because I didn’t want some moron fucking with my kids’ heads. He was a great guy, great dad. Mike had died with a brain tumor just before I left for LA.
The contrast between the two Mikes could not have been more exaggerated.
Associations, eh ???
I worked for Mike Lewis too – I even crashed his truck one time (brakes failed not ‘really’ my fault). This was also part of my ‘baptism’ in LA and was one of the things that ‘alerted’ me that primal seemed to ‘fail’ most of the time. I met him and many others like him who had been around for years and years and it was like huh?…………..I was talking to a friend a few days ago and we were talking about what we expected primal people to be like and for some reason I came up with maybe like Led Zeppelin only ‘cooler……………and he was like ‘yeah something like that. Then we both laughed at our absurd fantasies.
I needed that. Mike sent us out to move the ,”dad” character, Michael Gross, on ” Family Ties,” out of storage on the production co lot to a gated house in Malibou; with that fucking ancient Ford pickup and the furniture van. The guy was in a forced move situation. I listened to Mike on the phone with told Gross his fleet of Moving Vans was solidly booked for weeks but if it would help him out he’d send out two certified moving technicians with the truck and trailer he reserved for transporting boxes and moving blankets to the job. No, he did not have any furniture robes left, they were all on his vans.
WE got to the job, me, two days in the bizz, and one very hung over, ” Louie,” from NY, with a splitting head ache, who by appearance I worried might roll me when the customer paid the cash job.
Gross had a fucking painting that was worthy more than Mike’s house. I told him the truth about Lewis Moving Corporation, what we arrived in was the company equipment; that we had no insurance and that the only way I was moving anything was for him to have the production company office type up a Waiver releasing me and Louie from any and all liability arising from damage to his furniture. He did so. We went into carpentry and he took 4 sheets of inch thick hard wood plywood and 4 sheets of 4 ” egg crate impact absorbent foam; and rolls of duct tape and furniture robes. We packed that painting, loaded and delivered Buddy’s furniture.
We retired from Lewis futures.
Phil – to explain a bit more why I think that…………..the results on ONE person or animal can tell you a whole lot………….more than the ‘averages’ beloved of medical science and ‘blind controls’. …………..most of medicine is totally cluttered up with statistical ‘truths’ (non truths usually). The smartest people in medicine are beginning to say this they talk about each person’s N=1, a statistical sample of ONE or of YOURSELF. I would say pay attention to that and not so much to statistics.
Patrick, There’s probably no point in debating this but there could be a whole lot of reasons why the sheep were healthy one year and less so another. It’s great that they are doing well, just that I wouldn’t draw large conclusions from that. It is simply one observation which is worth a lot less than thousands of observations. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
On the biodynamic organic farm I work on our sheep , cattle, and goats always do well. They eat a plant based, grain free diet; free of all chemical medicines. They do not require deworming. They graze on the hard scratch fields they are genetically engineered to thrive on..
They are spared the stress of man shearing and dipping.They are permitted to naturally shed and the wool is collected.
I use homeopathic remedies as needed with the critters but the sheep never need it..
Patrick, To add more to what I said, if you found something that works for you I can understandabout going with that, I would do that too. But that, to me, doesn’t mean throwing out all medicine, vaccinesetc. I watched about half of Dr, Kruse’s interview you posted, I don’t know what to make of that, I can’t really evaluate it.He talks about subatomic workings, but what goes on at cellular, organ and the organism levels is stillimportant. What Dr. Kruse talks about is at the opposite end of the spectrum from primal, so the two don’t really gotogether. But Kruse may have valuable findings, he certainly is totally convinced. Phil
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 01:59:34 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – I take your point that Kruse might seem the opposite of primal…………….but not really to me…………the way I think of it is what is reality?……………….if someone makes a ‘discovery’ about some important aspect of ‘ reality’ is is ‘coupled’ with lots of other things that might not at first seem related……………he knows a bit about organs and cells etc after all his day job is a brain surgeon.
But I have to admit having gone ‘off’ him a bit recently. Since I met him actually. Also now I feel he under-estimates the damage of certain things (vaccines especially) and possibly over-estimates the dangers of cell phones etc. Still he is a formidable presence at least I think so. The way I see it ALL of these things are damaging it’s a matter of degree and some emphasize some aspects others different ones.
I have tried to interest him in primal I gave him Janov’s book “Life Before Birth” but yes I suppose that is what you are saying………………now I start to feel as good as he is he has blind spots too. It seems everyone has blind spots or so I see it……………..
Patrick, I realize Kruse is a brain surgeon, but he no longer seems to think much of his medical training. I don’t have any chronic medical condition I need help with, and that’s why Dr. Kruse doesn’t interest me. No need to change what I am doing. Phil
I want to add Patrick that the remarks, levied against you, that you’d approve of child sexual abuse, in the RC religion post, that’s just plain DIRTY. Too far below the muck to even be reptilian.
The anonymity is actually comforting. I’d never give an ounce to someone in hiding.
The anonymity is also ‘cowardly’ and ‘weak’…………..something I have gotten a bit used to here……………….you are a nice change a breath of fresh air to a stuffy room that needed it pretty badly. Hope you can keep going……………
And, I also wanted to write “Hi” to Margaret. I am doing OK, but all this talk about animals doesn’t really light my rockets, you know? I wish you the best in your future feline endeavors, nonetheless.
““To place every person on the planet into a cradle-to-grave system of diagnosing and drugging vaccinations and interference.. To make every person, first and foremost, a medical patient. To thereby condition every person to obey orders”
My addition to the above: not only every person……………….but every cat, dog,, sheep, cow, goat, even maybe rabbit do the same………………..I am glad to report that my brother’s sheep are all great and un-fucked with for a change………………
But at some time; aren’t they going to be slaughtered against their own wishes or input … by slitting their throats and leaving their own heart to beat such that it drains the blood out before the actually die.
Seems you know what it means for sheep to feel “great” yeah!!!! Least-ways until they are led to the slaughter housse
I hunted deer in the years when I was a meat eater. I always felt great remorse after a kill. I always apologized to the deer and thanked it for the meat. Don’t know where that came from. In 2008 I learned that my father’s biological father was North American Indian. I began frequenting a local
reserve interested in leaning their culture. I saw other aspects of them in me, as I was from childhood. Lo and behold thanking the animal is a part of their ancient beliefs. None of this is to justify my kills.
At the farm they don’t have me work on slaughter days.
I am also convinced by the scientific work of Connecticut Naturopathic Scientist, Dr. Peter J. D’Adamo, that Blood Types, O, B and to a lesser degree AB require red meat consumption for optimal health. That need is genetically programmed by ions of human existence.
I’m Blood Type A; best suited for a vegetarian diet.
Thanks be for ta poor sheeps…. Did some shearer get laid off ???? hhah On a serious note, I was amazed and appalled by the jokes and songs I heard last year about the at least once common practice of sheep rape in the State of Maine. A radio station staff recorded a CD with many references accompanied by gfaws and chortles.
Jack – so what kind of ‘no-win’ situation are you putting me in now? If I ‘answer’ it’s taken as just something more to ‘argue’ with and an example of my ‘defensivenss’ or some other jargon you have picked up in your ‘studies’ your sport as you have admitted is ‘riling’ me up……………….so if I abstain from your ‘lure’ it becomes not answering the question. Somebody must REALLY have done a number on you………….where at over 80 y.o. you get your kicks from ‘provoking’ me……………anyway that said I agree with you here.
Did you hear that?!?!?! I AGREE with you……………..what will you do to/with that? How can you turn that into an ‘argument’
But seriously you are correct but you know yourself it is hard to find a ‘total solution’ to things though sorry I forgot you already have that “Abolish Money”
> David,
> it was not clear to me you were not trying to ‘correct’ me and just explaining your personal view.
> so it felt you were judging me.
> therefor my question in the end, kind of what makes you so perfect, indeed a defensive reaction of mine.
>
> to go from there to call me nasty etc. and specially to say P is correct about me, seems again kind of judgamental, and disregarding all what has been said in the past, just labelling me in some attempt to hurt me.
> M
P. stands for Patrick……………….Patrick is my name…………….this is not even ‘ignoring’ but some weak semblance of ‘ignoring’…………….please I would like to be called by my name, don’t paint me as some ‘unspeakable’ or ‘pariah’ say my name………….I don’t wish to see/say this again………………..
Do you know this Irish ditty, Patrick; from my old ma:” Patty wrote a letter ta his darlin’ Mollyo
Sayin, ” If ya don’t receive this
Write an let me know…”
No David I didn’t exactly but I know what you mean. Irish humor can be pretty good. A short one.
The Irish are planning a manned mission to the heart of the Sun. Somebody says are you mad you will be incinerated before you get there. Answer: We thought of all that we are going at night!
Only you can decide if it doesn’t fit, Margaret. Generally I ‘m just a from whence it comes guy, nothing personally offends me. In real time, I only care what my kids and grand kids think of me. In real time I am kind, generous, nurturing, non sexist, non judgmental.
Catch me on one of those other days and I’ll answer your snotty nasties and sarcasm by verbally going all over you, and without filthy language. I don’t know you, your age, if you are fragile, none of those things that would have me temper my debate accordingly.
My huge issues are with an abusive mother who tried to destroy an angelic, bright, beautiful boy. She failed, “he,”, I, was retrievable. Just so you know.
Your question:- “where at over 80 y.o. you get your kicks from ‘provoking’ me”
Real easy. I get a great (maybe perverted) kick out of provoking you because I know it gets you all riled up. You loved (seemingly) on entering this blog with a whole host of ‘blowing off’ about me (most of it true) … without let up … until I started to POKE you. Commonly referred to as cause and effect
Being 82 + y/o is not my favorite age, but so far I seem to be holding out and as yet (contrary to a prior wish of yours) I am not suffering a slow death … yet. It might happen sooner or later. Meantime I/we laugh a lot, specially with my Jimbo. I cry (I suspect) more than most out there, but that is no problem for me. I do get angry and yell about it; especially with all the police shootings and wars. Why, I ask, would anyone ever want to be a police or military person? putting oneself in harms way? Then there are the odd moments of fear and terror (old feelings bubbling up to the surface … mainly at night). Other things are:- I love dancing, singing, walking (not to far; half a mile or so), I love blogging and saying my party piece, I even love organizing things … but in someone else’s space, I have to compromise on that
However, all this is what I see as LIFE. Hope this answers (to some extent) your question.
Of course … Primal therapy is about bringing re-memories back into consciousness … never to return to the subconscious; again.
I also know it irks you to be reminded of your introduction (induction, or what you will) here..
Unless and until you can either go back to that moment and … in all honesty, state why you REALLY did it. OR, that you begin to see that you are the VERY CAUSE of your own irritations, irk-some-ness, anger … and it is YOU that is going no-where … (my feeling … observing and reading you, of course).
Sounds like you really care about Patrick.Jack. Can’t imagine hanging on putting myself out there and in for getting heck in return for someone I didn’t care about; and vice versa Patrick. You both could have just said fuck it and moved on. you’re obviously bright evolved men.
I’ll send you guys the address of my receivables accountant to remit my fees for my miracle savior treatment…. hah !!
Well if it works maybe you have some ‘miracle treatment’. I am open to miracles……………we all went to Lourdes (in spirit) as children so miracles are possible in my mind. In all seriousness I would like to make peace with Jack and I have ‘learned’ a few things the last few years I give him his props in certain and quite a few matters…………………but if he wants to just demean me and mock me IN PUBLIC that just cannot work.. if he is in any way ‘serious’ so am I. I am anyway………………
As far as your ‘fee’ you will be paid strictly by ‘results’ unlike Janov who made sure to collect all money up front lol……………we were speculating recently if say primal was to be paid for say over a period of two years quite a few would have been gone by about 6 months………………but Janov was ‘smarter’ than that…………..
In the culture of my ancient,, ( some 8000 years a distinct nation; – up to the early 1800’s,) culture of my Mi kmaq ancestors, their chief and counsel were paid at the end of each year, if the people agreed they had done a good job.
Wouldn’t that weed the ass draggers and nutty nuts out of our governments and commerce.
AT THE TIME YES AT THE TIME…………..Gretchen proposed a ‘joint session’ you wouldn’t you have ‘bragged’ often later why you didn’t, I said I was ‘sorry’ you didn’t do ‘sorry’ you said, I apologized’ I only did it to look good to other people.you said…………..you are just a full of shit primaller who WANTS to hold onto things forever and ever, you NEED that for some reason. If peace is not being made it is because AT LEAST one party wants ‘war’ (I read recently about the Middle East ‘peace process’ well there is no peace process because Israel NEVER wants peace, I see you in that way) even though you don’t want war you are too much of a faery for that, you want endless sniping and smart alecing. You are a full of shit primaller whose lifestyle is BASED on never ‘forgiving’ it maybe provides some ‘proof’ to you that primal is so valid………………see I can never forget. ………….so it must be true for EVERYONE…………..read my fucking ‘books’ and see how true it all you are a full of shit primaller…………….the worst kind………………
OK why did I REALLY do it? How about this I had it up here of your blackmail and threats, your lying and you constant need for ‘help’ and when for a change I needed ‘help’ from you you as usual treated my like an enemy. All of this we could have hashed out and trashed out but you wouldn’t’ you would rather ‘litigate’ it here as you have for over 3 fucking years now and you will go on and do that forever. You don’t WANT peace I don’t know what you want but it seems VERY important to you to keep up major blocks and then yak here about it…………….where it can never be resolved. If you REALLY want to know I am willing to talk to you with or without Gretchen or whomever. Listen good I am willing to talk and try to ‘resolve it but NOT HERE! It CANNOT be ‘resolved’ here you know that is that why you keep ‘proposing’ it??
I am sorry if I get a bit over heated but I am quite wiling to talk to but again NOT HERE. For your ‘safety’ as I can imagine that might be another fake issue by you Jim can be there, Gretchen, Barry, Janov himself but NOT IN PUBLIC. That should not be too hard to understand………………
Patrick: Your characterization of event is colored with what seems to me ‘a route to make you sound good’ OR … poor victim me, Patrick. I have related this story from my perspective on about three different occasions, only for it to be met by you as “lies, blackmail et al” without you tending your version of the event.
However I will state it again:- Prior to you asking me, some two to three weeks before your entry onto the blog; things between us were not (as I recall) that bad or terrible. Gentle Giant now in the hands of the new owners that you had given to them, were wanting to renegotiate the deal you had with them (my understanding that they were to pay you in perpetuity $10,000 a month, you offering no particular service).
You emailed me and asked if I would hand over to you each month the software development that you could then relay back to them. I saw that as you wishing to have leverage with them. I agreed to that with you, on the condition that you asked their permission to allow this detour. The next email from you was such a tirade towards me which I found to be unutterably unreasonable. I answered that email insisting that I needed their permission as I did not want to jeopardize my relationship with then, relative to providing monthly upgrades and getting my fee. Then another tirade ensued from you, bringing in matters that I felt were not relevant to the current wish on your part. I decided there and then I would not answer this second email. Then a third email came from you that was even more vitriolic.
At that point I decided that any communication with you on this matter was pointless and served nothing for me. Then I got a phone call, and when I realized that it was you I put the phone down. Then another phone call from you and I again put the phone down on you. Then a third one, for which I did the same.
The next move on your part was to come onto the Primal Blog, knowing that I frequented it, blasting away with all the venom I felt you were able to muster. You did get one “Rah rah” from one blogger but Gretchen came on and suggested to you that she did not like the hateful attempt to willfully hurt another, BUT that they did not bar anyone for commenting on the blog. There were (if my memory serves me correctly) several more rants, tirades and barrages from you until I finally responded that I did not like you anymore and wanted nothing more to do with you … in-spite of what ‘I deemed’ a pathetic and insincere attempt on your part to apologize in, what I considered was to “mend the bridge” I wasn’t having any of it.
When you then started to attempt to lambaste Primal Therapy; I then stepped in with what I call my “POKES” at you.
If your version of events are different then just present your case, and yes! in public. Merely suggesting that I am a liar and that you have done so, much to rescue the ‘poor little me’ from starvation and homelessness, doesn’t cut it with me.
> David,
> are you saying I have spoken to you in snotty nasties and sarcasms?
> in that case please adress exactly what I have said so I can understand and maybe even say I am sorry, but this feels just like hostility without a clear reason.
> I am not your mother and I am able to feel hurt.
> I am not into wisecracks and double messages, prefer openness and vulnerability.
> I have told you I felt defensive, if you still want to remain hostile well, I am not gonna get into a struggle about it, don’t need to defend myself for no reason really.
> M
> David,
> I have gone back to reread my comment to you that for me seeems to have triggered your reply, and that last sentence you refer to would be my asking you to have a look at yourself and see if everyting there is so perfect.
> what is so terribly nasty about that? specially since I went to the trouble afterwards of explaining to you I felt you were judging me for wanting to bring home a kitten .
> and by the way I am 57, you can ask if you like to know.
> so now I have reread the comment and I still dont see why I am being called nasty, so well, I can only supose it must be in the eye of the beholder..
> M
David’s mention of Mike Lewis……………..anyway I thought I would tell this little ‘story’ (all true)
I was somewhat of a regular ‘helper’ of his as it was called, my regular ‘driver’ as it was called was D. Anyway D. was a primal guy around for maybe 2 or 3 years and I quite liked him. He was very cool not bossy at all would say to me a lot ‘what do you think’. He was a bit phlegmatic but all in all a good guy and very trust worthy and truthful. I had no problems with him at all and considered him a friend though we did not socialize together.
Anyway I heard through the grapevine (Mike) that he was not so happy with D. Small things like he doesn’t count the ropes, he didn’t charge for the use of a wardrobe box. I felt the guy was fine and I’m thinking typical of M to nit pick shit like that. Like really ‘micky mouse’ stuff in fact later me and a friend used to just call him “micky mouse’. Micky Mouse Movers we liked the alliteration in that.
One morning M. tells us (me and D) that he is ‘demoting’ D and ‘promoting’ me to being the ‘driver’. I felt a bit embarrassed like I knew this guy was a very good worker and he did not deserve this. But anyway what could I do?
I remember sitting in the truck about to take off and I do I don’t feel good about this I really don’t want this and said I would (privately) split the difference in money with him. He was like no that’s cool don’t worry about it and I said well anyway I will. He is starting to eat a carton of yogurt as we are talking.
Off we go onto the 10 going east, past La Brea going near Crenshaw a sudden traffic ‘pile up’ or at least ‘sudden’ to me maybe not paying so great attention. I slam on the breaks I should mention at this point his ‘rig’ was a pick up truck hauling a ‘horse trailer’ behind (a real professional operation lol) anyway slam on the breaks the pick up takes a violent turn to the left and spins around and ends up facing traffic in the next lane. The horse box has got entangled in the truck but luckily (very luckily) no cars his us from the next lane.
I calm down……….Phew11………………look over at my new ‘helper’ erstwhile ‘driver’ and the yogurt is splashed all over his shirt. I go “So D what do you think or your new ‘driver’ then?
This is a totally true story not a word of embellishment……………..I have many many more if anyone cares to hear……………..
Oh my; I just picked me up off the floor. I thought I’d choke to death laughing. That was the same shit Mike was using when I worked for him. truck and pony rust color carpeted trailer. bring em on.
My comment about Led Zeppelin only cooler………………you can see I has set the bar real high but hey John Lennon did it and these guys Led Zeppelin are singing about communication breakdowns and they seem to be in similar territory to me so maybe yeah who knows. Anyway you can see my ‘fantasies’ were VERY big I ‘expected’ a lot which ‘explains’ my deep sense of disappointment when I got here
(Again Jack NO NEED to ‘defend’ your Faith I am just saying……………..that was me and I suppose embarrassingly so but I want to say it now……………..) I was/am quite ‘shy’ compared to Robert Plant.
Hey, girl, stop what you’re doin’
Hey, girl, you’ll drive me to ruin
I don’t know what it is I like about you, but I like it a lot
Won’t you let me hold you, now, let me feel your lovin’ touch
Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
Havin’ a nervous breakdown, a-drive me insane
Hey, girl, I got somethin’ I think you oughta know
Hey, babe, I wanna tell ya that I love you so
I wanna hold you in my arms, yeah
I’m never gonna let you go, ’cause I like your charm
Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
Havin’ a nervous breakdown, drive me insane, ow, suck
Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
Havin’ a nervous breakdown, a-drive me insane, yeah
Communicate, I want you to love me all night
I want you to love me all night, I want, hey, I want, yeah
I have an English friend who fantasied (as a result of primal) (sic) that he would play center forward for England in the World Cup when he could get time off from jamming with Pink Floyd and Eric Clapton and something else real ‘cool’ too.
I remember in my mind being a drummer for a ‘super group’ called “The Primal Blues Band” and oh what else…………..I might have to go back to Ireland to ‘save’ the country by becoming the Prime Minister or something. I by some magic would play goal keeper for Holland in the World Cup Ireland hardly ever made it and when they did they were no good. I FELT they were no good and neither was I……………..
David – OK last one another Mike Lewis story (all true)
After out little ‘accident’ it seems I was still ‘promoted’ still ‘driving’ same ‘helper’ he is cool like I said carries no resentments (not ALL primallers are that way) anyway Sunday morning in Orange County, ‘foreign’ territory a bit for us, warm day we show up in horse box and pick up.
Some problem with tools in like we don’t really have any, need to ask the customer for a wrench to undo the washer/dryer. Tense situation in the house, divorce looks like husband hostile wife friendly (to us). Have to borrow another tool (screwdriver) husband is getting hot under the collar I am never the best at calming a situation but you know not escalating it either.
For some reason husband looks outside sees our ‘rig’ totally loses it, what the fuck do we think we are playing at. Rampaging around the house picks up a hammer (for us?) situation is getting a bit frightening…………I remember him running through the house like a headless chicken. I say well sir it’s your choice if you do not want us to move you blah blah blah…………….that f…. right I don’t want you to move me. (I think he was also using it to stay with his wife a bit longer) so anyway we had hardly anything on the truck take it back in the house and get the f… out of there
I am the new ‘driver’ we race up the free way Sunday morning very little traffic flying along like get away from there as fast as possible. People start waving at us…………..I am like eff you leave us alone, it happens again I am still like leave us alone mind your own business…………..after a while D says to me they are STILL waving at us (Who are those guys??)…………and then we see smoke enveloping the truck. D says to me have you released the hand brake…………..oops NO!!
I look over at him and say “D your new driver is having some problems”
Jack – I will answer down here but again I am not really happy about this . This is more ‘public posturing’ the way I see it more just attempting of airing dirty laundry. if I felt you were ‘sincere’ I don’t know why you would object to a ‘meeting’ or a ‘session’ alone or with others you might want so I dunno this feels pointless……………..
I can say I acted impulsively and without really thinking a lot of things through……………..but you know this about me you have and did know me for a long time. I was in a crisis situation at that time and really I was grasping at straws and recently I have tried to take it step by step through in my own mind……….and I can see your points and why you acted the way you did
But and you should understand this…………it was literally a FEELING for me, I felt I had been there for you in a helpful way many many times…………….when you were ‘down’ I never turned you away or was deaf to you……………when I was ‘down’ I expected something similar I didn’t feel i was getting it but I accept from your point of view it might look pretty crazy
You might find this hard to believe Jack but I saw you in many ways as an exemplar of primal unlike me a ‘lapsed’ one………….and again I found this business of just hanging up the phone so opposite of what I thought of primal to be. Now maybe you ‘spoilt’ me in that I always felt I could talk to you and to suddenly be just hung up especially at a very low time in my life…………..well that was hard to take and I remembered you at those earlier times and it’s like now that counts for nothing.
But again Jack and you should understand this why are we making these kind of ‘factual’ points in public it’s not that I am ‘against’ in public but really do you want to make peace or not. i feel that I do I feel it would be productive to meet in some way. I now live about 6 blocks from you I will probably run into you one of these days…………….i dunno we still ‘litigating’ all this over the internet. I don’t like it it provides way too many loop holes for posturing and lecturing and spinning. I know you love blogging but not everything is some public show. You and I have done way too much of this I find it embarrassing but I suppose this is better than nothing or better than we have been able to do so far. I have ‘admitted’ some things here I can ‘admit’ some more but I dunno in public still does not feel right to me
I do see from this comment that you are making an attempt to, as I phrased it, “mend the bridge”. I am not willing to go there. It seems you are not willing to accept that. One minute you sound like you want something between us … then when it doesn’t happen, you are back to attempting to insult, berate or show that I am the nastiest. That constitutes to me someone that flips from one mode to, what appears to me, the extreme other.
I don’t like you anymore, and have no desire, even if I see pass on the street to even speak to you. It’s that simple. In the past I worked for you and later with you. That’s now come to an end. It’s for you to now accept that is where I am at with regards to you … the exception being when you start trying to re-organize and berate this therapy and/or Arthur Janov and his work. Since you are on the blog … and no-one is banning you … and I too am on the blog … and so far no-one is banning me; I will respond with what I call my “pokes” anytime you attempt to misrepresent this therapy, the theory supporting it, or Arthur Janov (not as a personality, but his work).
Others characterize it/us as the “Jack and Pony show” I accept their characterization.
I was going to say ‘I’m not surprised’ but actually I am. I always feel peace is possible, past hurts can be ‘forgiven’ and ‘understood’. To me there is deep truth and value in that. But well thanks for just telling me straight, part of this was for me too…………..I sometimes think ‘what if you die’ and then it is too late for real for ever. Now at least I won’t beat myself up so much if it happens at least I feel I made a serious attempt at peace and understanding.
You did help me a lot Jack in quite different ways but we are very different as people your strengths tend to be my weakness and vica versa I would say But as a team we did I believe create great software though you get full credit for the actual programming. But I think you would agree it took the two of us. The tragedy and I had a big part in this is not just accepting it takes two……………….I could never do it all by myself even if I tried I could not. And so it is in many walks of life takes me a long to realize that.
I probably the way it looks be back in Ireland in about 18 months for good I would say. So if you die I will probably be far away but I am glad even if maybe only for myself to have tried to reach out . I hope and believe I will have a clearer conscience about all that happened so in that way I am being ‘selfish’ too.
I am guessing you do this partly on ‘advice’ well that’s your business but my opinion for what it’s worth (nothing) is that ‘advice’ does not really serve you well. It is the same ‘advice’ responsible for the wrecking of your micro-biome and your dependence on drugs that have a large factor in making you the ‘dried prune’ you have become. So in a way I don’t take it so personal I know it has a lot to do with your ‘medicated’ status and your inability to look outside primal and get a bigger picture of what has happened to you. Instead you have become ‘fanatical’ about your ‘beliefs’ and you will spiral down the hole you have chosen……………..oh well it’s a bad habit of mine to try to ‘save’ people you have rejected that strongly. We will both have to live (and die) with it.
I did not write these words Van Morrison did but it has a feeling of death or someone about to die, honestly I think that’s why now I reached out to Jack (and thanks to David’s good influence too) but I have a feeling death is near. Could be wrong and hope I am. Maybe it’s my death who knows it feels very bad karmas to me to walk on the other side of the street but just my feelings/beliefs each person goes their own way (to death)
Slim slow slider
Horse you ride
Is white as snow
Slim slow slider
Horse you ride
Is white as snow
Tell it everywhere you go
Saw you walking
Down by the Ladbroke Grove this morning
Saw you walking
Down by the Ladbroke Grove this morning
Catching pebbles for some sandy beach
You’re out of reach
Saw you early this morning
With your brand new boy and your Cadillac
Saw you early this morning
With your brand new boy and your Cadillac
You’re gone for something
And I know you won’t be back
I know you’re dying, baby
And I know you know it, too
I know you’re dying
And I know you know it, too
Every time I see you
I just don’t know what to do
Shit !! B B King is dead. I read he was unwell and then perked up again. I never met him; went to a few shows. But in 1979 I signed with RCA Records Publishing arm, DUNBAR. and also got a contract to polish other writers work, $ 200,00 a pop. .Jack Feeney their A&R man phoned me one day. He’d been courting me hard. I was so important, so gifted. Mr Hardy, he says, I’ve got a music legend here,trying to sign him; he listened to your track and the two tunes you collaborated on and he wants to talk with you. Mr. Hardy says this kind sounding voice, It’s BB King. Son, you’ve got the gift and now you’ve got a fine record company behind you. All I could manage was, “” ththththanks…”He took my number and address and his publicist actually sent me some,” Requested Material,” envelopes, to send him tunes I wrote. BB never signed with RCA, he went with Mercury records. A year later I sided with another writer RCA had screwed and I was no longer Canada’s most important new song writer. Makes a good story now to laugh on…
David – to lighten the mood a bit more…………….I don’t really have so many great M. L. stories but I thought to mention this.
We had a crazy long day of moving for him, D. the same guy who was later ‘demoted’ was now the ‘driver’ and I was the ‘helper’ This was a BAD day the ‘low light’ of which was the customer’s mattress blow off on the Freeway and if my memory serves me well (not really sure of this but I think so) we went back around on the freeway and retrieved the (damaged) mattress. Yes I am pretty sure we did as I remember the customer complaining about the damaged bed (or was it the total disappearance of the bed – maybe that was it. Anyway I also remember having to make 2 trips so maybe we SAW the mattress on the freeway on our second trip
Anyway long story short – we are arriving back to the ‘office’ definitely that in quotes and we pass a U-Haul. It is around midnight and I have that tiredness that was in a way nice all tension drained out of my body almost is a surrealistic kind of state calm and strangely alert too……………anyway the sign at U-Haul is advertising their services with a slogan “An Adventure in Moving”
I looked at D and we both broke out laughing………………like why would they advertize THAT we just HAD one of those…………..it’s nothing to be proud of and nothing to desire yet here you have a nationwide company advertising that and trying to induce their customers to partake. We both concluded it’s like they are on drugs or something or WE are on drugs…………….the drug of outrageous adventure, the adrenaline of danger and just the sheer absurdity of it all.
And I thought probably tomorrow D will get in trouble for having lost one rope or something…………..
Oh boy just like waiting for Western Theatre….thank you Patrick. From now on I’m going to take my lap top to the floor to partake in your version of Monty Python….
dave
Has everyone gone on furlough in primal land ?? One day silent figured all off to church; 2 days…..
Feeling abandoned; again
My earliest writing, 8 or so by my spelling tells of, ” hate the rain, because I’m stuck in a house where no one wants me.” Later I would often just write, ” Here comes the rain again,” when I sensed a new friendship/relationship was fading. Struggle a little. Time to go away..I’ll die and then they’ll be sorry they didn’t love me.”
Those 5 words still can twist my face into a mask of agony Like now; Is that feeling or acting out ?? Just a neurotic way to keep the feeling of not being loved ?
Hi David, I was also wondering where everyone went. As a kid I almost always preferred leaving my house and going off with friends. Home was not a happy place. It’s a sunny day here last time I looked. No window in the room where I work. Phil
I think it got shut down for some repair work? Oh! maybe everyone decided to sleep in … but then I wouldn’t really know anyway. No accounting for what Primal people are up to.
Ya breaks me up , sir !!!! I recall when 1st in LA sorting out all of our come from away accents, making the near fatal accident of asking a Melbourne woman from what part of England did she hail…. Had an Australian take exception, at the bloody gas pumps, when, after telling me he was visiting from Adelaide, I asked about a newsworthy event in New Zealand.. He exploded, ” My god man, I’m from Australia, that’s a whole different country… blah, blah, blah. ” I said yes I knew that my son in law hailed from Angaston, on his doorstep, but I thought being geographically loser his take on the situation might be more accurate. He choked on his humble pie or a bumble bee or something, muttered something barely audible and stormed off. It struck me funny, as eruditeness often does, and I was leaning against the pump for support laughing my arse off.
David: “Laughing your arse off” Did you stick it back on again after filling the tank. You’d look real funny if you’d left it at the petrol station Geese, you Aussies, specially after leaving the place, talk real funny.
Yeah yeah! I know we Brits have a habit of talking with that hot tater in the mush, but you guys leave me wonderin if we did the wrong thing when we sent all those convicts to Aussieland and gave them rabbits to take with um.
Just wanted to say really liked Letterman’s last show. It was a program that my mom and I always agreed on; that we liked Dave Letterman and his humor. It was good to see him with his friends and the appreciation they had for each other. In the look-back his little interviews with children was touching–you could tell he understood them. Will miss seeing him and his truth- baring wit. Never will forget him saying to one of his guests when they were going on and on about something; “Cut the crap.” Great guy.
S.
I fell asleep. I have not done a lot of Late Night Shows viewing, Letterman , et al, are past midnight airing here. I kept thinking , I must be missing the, how funny he is aspect of his public character. Colbert and Stewart slay me; but then I thrive on big shots getting it stuck to them and Republican politicians having their genetic code put on display. It’s the only one bar genetic code I have ever seen. Chimps have more bars.
Drove by a shop today that primarily sells clothing and hardware. A Large Lettered handposted sign read, ” Just Received New Supply of Letterman’s Better Beef.” On my return trip it was altered, reading ” SORRY, I meant to write, ” LEADBETTERS BEEEFF,” cracked me up…
This evening I was with some friends at a fund raising dinner for Nepal. The venue was a big church auditorium. There were maybe 300 people present, a lot of whom were East Indian, Pakistani, and Nepalese. Prior to the official ceremonies, an East Indian lady was up on the stage playing a sitar, and an East Indian man was playing taballa drums, creating an exotic, inviting, interesting atmosphere.
The ceremonies opened with a fellow on stage talking about the earthquake disaster, while images of the people in Nepal and the devastation were projected onto the main stage screen. The effect was to bring home to me that the earthquake was not just an item on the news, but a real natural disaster hurting real people right now, and that it could have been me instead of them that it happened to.
The master of ceremony said a long prayer before the meal, expressing mystification as to how God could let the disaster happen to His children, but then asking that good work be done in His name to reveal His true glory. Next an East Indian lady sang a beautiful rendition of the Lord’s prayer. For a few moments I was caught up in how comforting it would feel to believe in a greater power who looked out for us, cared for us and loved us, whose existence would help me believe in goodness and help give me strength and feel good to do good and right for others. That faith and belief is so alluring in contrast to reality as I see it, namely that there is no greater power looking out for us, that the earthquake was caused by recurring periodic natural movement in the earths crust that happen irrespective of our wishes, and that we are fragile, vulnerable bags of jelly in an infinite universe of powerful physical forces indifferent to our existence.
Instead of comforting faith and belief in a benign, nurturing greater power, it is so much more stark and empty to see the reality that there is no greater power out there caring and looking out for me, that I’m on my own in a universe that is stark, cold, empty, and can be dangerous. Sounds like a feeling coming up. Emptiness and aloneness is eating away at me, sapping the life out of me. I expect soon it will feel so all encompassing and debilitating that I will succumb to it.
Also makes me feel this therapy will never go mainstream. Who would ever want to face the emptiness of reality coalescing upon them! It’s going to drive me to a breakdown ( a primal).
When I was 10 I went to what had been my beautiful grandfather’s room, turned into a store room. Our defunct TV was there.I know now all it needed was a Vertical Hold vacuum tube. Anyhow, winter, grandfather dead, father out on the land on the trap line, no escape now from mother’s abuse. I had a chat with god. I’d asked him before to stop the abuse of my family pointing out that I was a very good boy. Guess he was too busy trimming his nails or beard. Anyhow….Told him if he fixed the TV I’d believe in him and for the rest of my life I’d tell everyone he’d fixed my TV and helped me in that way. Well I guess he never went to tech school either and sure as hell was a non communicator. Shortly after that day I went to secluded outside place to have it out. I knew he didn’t give a shit. Now I was going to test his all powerful shtick. ” Pee,” I said; we were only allowed to say,”wet,” for the need to urinate. “Poop,” I said; we were only permitted to say,”dirty, ” pronounced, ” dirdy.” Summing up courage and cringing, I said,” SHIT,” no bolt of lightening. Hell he couldn’t have hurt me if he did exist unless he’d made me swallow a line of fish hooks and then ripped them out of my gut and back up my esophagus.
I followed up with, “damn, god damn, and jesus christ.” I knew then I’d been sold a load of shit.
And I had no word for it then but on the spot. I became a non theist. Kind of like a drunk forced sober by circumstances; ie: can’t get any booze; He doesn’t have to belong to any mystical group or attend meetings.
I forayed back to church, I was janitor of all our community churches from age 14 – 19. I got my meals , gratis, at home after age 11; the rest I earned. I got outed as having a good voice and ended up in the choirs as a soloist; voice trained by a retired New York Metropolitan Opera Company, voice coach and former Primary Mezzo Soprano. More important I had access to ,”borrow,” two mikes for my rock band. Odd, at 14 I looked 20 and at 50 I looked 30. I also free lanced as lead guitarist with adult pop bands. On Saturday night I sat on stage with the , ” Harbour Lights,” , small, ” Big Band,”,dance band wearing my father’s fedora, and sporting an eye pencil mustache watching the good hell fire and brim stone Baptists get pissed and then several mixed marriaged , ( not married to each other,) partnerships would stroll outside, returning one good screw time later. Sunday morning I sat beside the minister in the soloists chair and grinned down at the same hypocrites and took great glee in watching them squirm. My 15 year old drummer took up educational relationships with some of those Baptist moms. He was Anglican and someone had told him to ,”… never shit in your own bed,” which I remember him telling me with an air of a man of the world sophistication. They also gave him, at his request,spending money and pints of Vodka, the booze of choice of the Fundamentalists.
I was even the lay preacher at the United Church. I never, “Believed,” ever again, though. The free voice training and the accolades were the only draw. Neither did the minister believe in all that crap, I later learned as an adult. A 6’6″ Armenian, impressive figure of a man, a fine caring humanist and a wonderful dad to his 3 kids. His sermons dealt with those human traits not ghosts, sins, and miracles.
I sat with my little girl for two days after her surgery, leaving her side only a couple of times to the rest room. I had a chat with my grandfather. Told hmi I didn’t believe in his god. But if I was wrong would he have chat with his god and ask him to spare Rachael’s life. I told him if he was right, believing, then it would be blasphemous for me to ask, and any way the bible says it’s a real biggy to try to bargain with their god. What horse shit eh.
Like electric gadgets, good thing religion has an off switch. Can’t believe many modern brains actually believes such nonsense.
… TRIBUTE IN BLUES, Mr Riley B ( Blues Boy / BB) King
David Hardy 15/05/2015
BB’s gone
Packed up Lucille an’ slipped away
Yea ea ah
BB’s gone
Packed up Lucille an’ gone away
You know a cold, cold feelin’
Settled in some hearts today
Can’t say for sure
When I first heard him
Was I, 8 or was I, 9
Can’t say for sure
When I first heard him
Was I, 8 or maybe 9
I think the song he was singin
Was Trouble in Mind
The notes from those magic fingers
They reached way down inside of me
yea ea ea ah
Those tremblin’ wails they triggered
Somethin’ , somethin way down deep inside of me
I think it was my true self
Tryin’ to get free
No new licks will be comin’
From the master’s hands
No oh oh oh
No new riffs will be comin’
From those master hands
But his gift will keep on giftin’
He left his master class plan
David, I took my son to see B.B. King last Oct. It seemed like a goodbye tour, he spent a lot of time talking and interacting with the audience but we enjoyed the show. Phil
David – did you write that? about BB KIng, Anyway I like it. Nice.
I am trying to grasp something at the edge of my consciousness here……………..but you mentioned doing moving and even my name………………I’m thinking but can’t quite recall a “David Hardy” who might have worked ‘for’ me if that is not too pretentious to say. It’s like one of those things/names I can BARELY recall but somehow I think I can but not completely sure. Also I can’t put any kind of ‘face’ to the name just the name seems to ring some bell.
About those moving stories about the only thing I learned from most of those movers was what NOT to do……………..so in that way it was a kind of ‘training’ training in what not to do…………..but still a kind of learning I suppose……………
Yep, PATRICK, I wrote the BB Tribute tune yesterday AM. You can sing it to the melody of Cold Cold Feeling, the same perfect melody to a couple million other blues songs. hah !!
I was sitting with a blues musician buddy when he was dying from spinal cancer; when he grins over at me and says ,Dave, you know the secret to writing a really, really great blues song ? I just listened. ” Well I woke up this mornin’,” he sings full growlin’ volume, head arched back and we both nearly choked to death laughing.
AND
Yep, I worked for an Irish Patrick on at least one job. Tom Foley recommended me. ???? We dismantled a TV Commercial Studio/warehouse; a repossession by Bank of America, I recall ?? It was a shell company in the name of the daughter, but owned by her father, a guy who was convicted of selling defective airplane parts to the military. Parts that had failed commercial airline x ray scans and sold for scrap., That Patrick with permission of the suit overseeing the job for the bank gave me a pair of Bauer Professional Hockey Skates and the sweaters and shorts worn by the NHL players who has shot an anti drug commercial at that facility. One Minnesota North Stars outfit had Bobby Smith’s name on the back.
I worked for Frank Mulhare pretty steady until I came back home for christmas. I got bumped by immigration on my first attempted return. They told me to never try to get back into the USA or I would go to prison, because they had information I had been working, rucking, in LA illegally. ( My ex, I guess.. The low life she’d been fucking dumped just before I got home in December. She also wrote the Institute and tried to get me kicked out. Said I had been disclosing confidential inf’n about fellow patients. Stupid me I saw a letter in our joint mail box addressed to her from the Institute and thought my big surprise was she had applied for treatment. I was so happy for her, and so proud of her courage.)They were a tough crowd, immigration. i had all kinds of documentation from my office and a certified cashier’s cheque for 5 grand, US funds. I stupidly had bought a return ticket through a friend working at LIU Airlines, Frank Doggett, originally from Maine. I had to return to Nova Scotia; cooked up a cover story with a friend in Boston , ” to visit.” to see some Bruins games and meandered across the USA back to LA. When I returned to LA I was sick with the flu for like 2 weeks. I had taken the funds back with me because I was determined I wasn’t going to work for Elephant Move any more on my down time between jobs with Frank. They weren’t really very respectful of their workers. I called Frank to let him know I was back and he dumped me, I guess because he would never speak to me again. I was heart broken. I thought we were friends. I did good work for him. Saved his ass once on a job with an other driver who crapped out under stress from the customer’s neighbors. Not a very adult way to behave. When I decide to be someone’s friend I jump in right to the family acceptance level.
I sent him a Facebook friend request and a, .” can’t we talk about this, 30 years later ?” but no answer. I read that he’s office manager for a moving company. I think he secured green card amnesty. I guess that still hurts because I’m crying now. I keep getting thrown away by people I’ve been good to and did nothing wrong to deserve it. That began at birth Patrick.
Fucking red ant in white ant hills.,
Come to think of it when, ” Patrick,” called me to offer me work, I think maybe it was Frank who referred me, huh…
I ended uo going back to Elephant move and worked well with their most notorious driver, John Rice. The strikers rolled their eyes and told me what a prick he was, he’d can me if I talked to him or didn’t fold the robes a particular way and suspend them just off the floor with ropes; and the ropes had to be done a certain way. Well Frank had taught me well. I didn’t say a word to John Rice; I just nodded every morning and immediately broke eye contact. After the third day. He said , ” You probably think I’m a prick for not talking. I’m scared to death I’ll get lost if I don’t pay absolute attention until 10 AM That’s when elementary school still goes in my mind. I’m in class then and I’m safe.” In time he chose to share his story. A lovely, kind, funny generous, guy; who introduced me to killer Falafels at the World’s Best Falafel House, hole in tha wall, in Santa Monica,on Pico. John was ex aeronautics engineer, who had to leave the profession because ya can’t not talk to your co geniuses until after 10 AM.
He built model planes and took me along to the modlers air field.
dave
Wow………..some of those names are really ringing bells with me. I think I even remember the job you are talking about the Bank etc. I was not there myself but yeah it was like a liquidation bankruptcy kind of thing and was paid for by the Bank. That was in the real early days early 1987 I am saying. So yes I think I saw your ‘name’ but I don’t think I actually met you.
I know Frank Mulhare very well was a roommate with him on Brooks Ave, he is Irish also.I don’t want to say too much more…………..he might be reading lol.I met all those guys you mention John Rice yes worked with him and even Frank Doggett I remember he ran some kind of travel agency thing was not a mover.
About being thrown away by people who you thought you were close to……………….don’t get me started. I have a notion about that which I have mentioned here before…………..I think ‘primal people’ are MORE apt to do it than the so called ‘repressed’ majority. They have all the tools and the trauma bond (their own) is in place and all the ‘explanations’ are at the ready (they don’t struggle etc)……………well you saw it here yesterday or at least I did. An old story of ‘religious’ folk who think they are so different in fact usually the same as the old only worse in many ways……………
People find ways of ‘balancing’ themselves out so if they have a THEORY of ‘expressing feelings’ they are LESS likely to actually really be that way. In my experience………………..
Wow: How you get your brain all in a twist; Quote:- “People find ways of ‘balancing’ themselves out so if they have a THEORY of ‘expressing feelings’ they are LESS likely to actually really be that way. In my experience………………..” I take it you are talking about Patrick Griffin having a THEORY about expressing feelings????
People that EXPRESS their feeling don’t have and have, nor need a theory about it. The only theory relevant and talked about here is Primal Theory. Should your brain not run to it. Having a theory about NEUROPHYSIOLOGY is not the same as having a theory about “expressing feelings” That’s a verb …, an action … something one does. Like walking. You don’t have to have a theory about walking to walk. Duh!!
It is my experience from reading you on this blog that the one person seemingly NOT ABLE to express his feeling; is none other than Patrick Griffin.
“No I was specifically thinking of you when I said that. I believe it to be very true in your case.” So !!! why didn’t you say so directly or indirectly???
“Even yesterday I wanted to move towards peace and fixing things…” If you knew how to create peace it would be easy … seemingly you don’t
“I just wish you would ‘ignore’ me ” No such luck … I just love poking you .. sort of like you seemingly love all the vitriol towards me. It’s a ‘Jack and Pony’ show .. remember?
“Wait now for another ‘attack’………………..”
Huh, I really thought you were there Patrick at the beginning and the end of the job after we’d torn the thing apart and packed it up for the repossessor to move it into quarantine. I became brazen asking for stuff and asked, I thought ,you, to ask the bank rep who watched the work lime a hawk if I could have that stuff. It blew Frank away that I would ask customers for stuff they were trashing. I got 2 gross of custom made shirts from Cosmetics mogul David Evans who we moved to Lost Hills, Vegas
I never had to launder a shirt the rest of the time I was there. I merely ripped the sleeves and the collars off. from Oscar Cosmetics supplier David Evans who we moved to Lost Hills Nevada. Fuck that was a trip. We had two trucks. We stopped at a truck stop for grub that was straight out of , Deliverance.” WE fucking escaped from there !!! David Evans’ partner, George, took a shine to Frank. They invited us to stay over with them. We declined. Shit it was a scene. We never got a fucking penny in tip from them. We went into Caesars Palace at 2 AM or so because Frank needed to use the Bank Machine..Filthy from a two truck load in the Valley. Wearing shorts and Frank in a sports coat that was a copy of, “Joseph’s Coat of Many Colors.
” Fuck ….
Shit., my ” archives” still work well. On the way back we had to make a delivery to David’s daughter in Lake Echo, Nev; . I totally freaked out scaling that fucking mountain, road, bolted onto the face of the mountain like LEGO; a zillion bloody feet above sea level. I had to leave my truck part way up.
We transferred my stuff to Frank’s truck. I was ok driving back down in daylight. It was the morning after Hallowe’en. I saw the worst thing I’d ever seen. the remains, a torso in a white blood soaked t -shirt. I stopped, spell bound. .A trucker stopped and told me to get out of there or I’d end up charged for it. Someone waited for that person, forever.
I can half picture you. Dark hair, pretty capably built guy, maybe barrel chested ??
Yeah, I met you at your place on Brooks, Venice. I was there twice, once answering a co-renter wanted advert and once when Frank was moving a family out of Venice who objected to drug soldiers shooting up their windows. It was a three man job, the third , I think Peter Crummy, so the truck box was never left unattended. hah/
I’m Canadian, 5′ 11″, had dark blond thick longish hair until Francis/Frank convinced me short hair would be more appropriate for a man my age, 39 yrs then. Always grinnin’, unless crying… I arrived in LA, August 86, 238 lb obese; left 190 lb, 44″ chest and 32″ waist. I’m Canadian, we apologize when someone steps on our fingers or toes ..Can’t miss us. We’re notoriously polite.. ha My Irish maternal grandfather was not known for being too nice; peaceable but…. He was among the Irish
child refugees to North America in 1865.. Raised by a German Family. I don’t even know what his Irish birth name was. My Canadian born Irish/ Dutch uncles sounded like they’d just gotten off the boat from Ireland, their brogue was so thick.
When I arrived in LA in Aug 86 you guys were advertising for a roommate, on Brooks; interviewing candidates. I thought that odd. Back home we’d just say, ” come on in.” And then suffer in silence if it was a disaster.
Buddy who owned the company being liquidated was convicted of fraud, human endangerment, and being a heinous human, , and lost everything on his way to prison. It was a major news story.
I wish I could have worked it out with Frank. I really like the guy. SWe had a bunch of laughs and worked well together. He was going to take me flying with him after the December break. I drew a caricatured business card for him, depicting him navigating the moving truck. He looks a bit like Richard Dreyfuss so it was easy to draw.
I’ll tell you my plumber’s helper job some time; it’s a good laugh.
dave
David – yes ‘you’ are coming back to me, but I am not the most observant person. i am pretty sure I did meet you but I cannot recall any specifics. Anyway it’s not important but sometimes I like to ‘push’ my memory as some kind of exercise. But now that you mention it I do remember Frank was the driver on that bankruptcy job but I was back in the ‘office’ (in quotes again)
It’s interesting kind of going over some of this kind of stuff it actually stirs up feelings……………..I have a lot to look back on and a lot to regret
No Frank wasn’t on that job. You are correct it, was early 8; I left April/May to return after receiving word my wife got pregnant, had an ectopic pregnancy and abandoned our children.
Frank never spoke to me after Dec 86. Never saw him again.
Watching , ” Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.” A friend recommended it,. She said the girl really fucks up a perverted probation worker. There’s a scene where the heroine sutured the Daniel Craig character’s facial injury with a sewing needle. Bang I was briefly jetted back to age 6. We were in the bush for the summer. I hung a barking knife on a limb and it fell and landed razor sharp blade on the web of my right thumb. My thumb just dropped as the tendons were cut. I could see all the white connective tissue. My father reattached the tendons and sutured the cut using catgut fishing line and a small trout hook with the barb snipped off. I don’t know if he used the words or if it was in his touch but he told me I was stupid. The feelings rushed up just now, I asked him why he thinks I’m stupid; that it hurt me and that I’m not stupid. Then I asked why he hates me and the feelings disappeared and I couldn’t bring them back,. huh….Along with the emotion was a violent pain behind my knees, uppermost calf. I have always had the exact same sympathetic pain seeing or sometimes just hearing the account of someone’s painful injury.
That’s the first primal scene ever to appear like that. For me it’s always just been feelings, except for the rape scene as an infant – early toddler.I’m face down. Can’t see the family member who did that. Don’t know what I’d ever do if I discovered it was my wonderful grampy.
What aspect IS,” HORRIFIC,” , to you, Larry. The , ” back country surgery,” was not a problem for me. It was the only choice.It was brilliant. He was brilliant, superiorly competent in dozens of skills and talents, ecologist, writing, poet, woodsman, canoe builder, church steeple painter, worked without safety harness of course; canoeist, hunter, fearless wild animal rescuer, trapper, shooter, a true STRONGMAN, but 5’5″ maybe; a trick sharpshooter, professional sportsman competitor, internationally sought out sports guide, hair stylist/barber, clock and watch maker, jeweller, electronics tech, totally and perfectly ambidextrous, perfect body strength, dexterity and reflexes, peri- sidedness , the balance and stealth of a cat, He could still do one arm chin ups and execute a clean , ” skin the cat,” gymnist movement when he was 88 years; a fine cabinet builder, tailor, dress maker, custom knotted button holer, hat maker, logger, chef, pastry chef, painter, multi instrumental musician, domestic and wild animals and birds flocked to him like he was family., devoutly religious , an ordained Christian Adventist Cleric,but not a proselytiser; never a braggart.
I adored him, I was terrified of him, that look. I dreamed of him always the same, killing me with an axe.
He was loving to me as a baby. Held me, rocked me, looked into my eyes.. Wanted to be there for me when I was sick and injured. It ended by age 5 and he hated me, what I was; wished I wasn’t his son.
Christmas 86, I came home from LA.. He told me he loved me. I’ve always been huggy, cuddly guy, always told him I loved him. He said it and I thought I was going to freeze to death. I never ever told him I loved him again. I nursed him uninterrupted the month of his dying. He talked incessantly about my perfect brother. I knew he’d been kind to me when I was a helpless baby.I wanted to give him the same genuine loving unconditional escort from this life. He died holding my hand as we ,”paddled across the lake to, the cove.” ” It was you I always took there, Donald ” were his final words. I squeezed his hand. My perfect brother was in the hall trying to seduce the nurses. He came in when I succeeded getting his attention, to beatifically pronounce ( he’s a High Anglican deacon), ” Look he’s in the arms of Jesus now,” an arm around the waist of each nurse who flanked him. I was invisible.
Oh, in case anyone wonders, I have had feelings about those events.
I realize I’m just saying what you all know, but; when a significant other dies that ends the possiblity of continuing the struggle, and any possible resolution. I hope I don’t leave anyone I love with that rest of life sentence.
” Each of us has friends, and we love them,
So before life’s story ends, why don’t we tell them so?
All the feelings we had stolen, when we were young
Is this as far as we can come ?
See, the people, falling to the ground
Looking like their hearts will break with pain
Like the story in the poets’ songs
Hope I’m never called on to explain
Why we hide or hopes so well
That no one can tell, we ever had a dream
All those feelings that we forced down
When we were young
Is this as far as we’ve come
All the pain that has chained us
Since we were young
Why do we leave those chains undone
Oh, no sarcasm intended, Larry; I’m big on clarification. I thought maybe it was the hill billy surgical feat. Thank you. Yeah life with the Hardy’s was not as much good luck as relatives often told me.
If you happen to read my epistle which mentions my perfect brother; he further endeared himself to me by fucking my first wife X times and attempted with my 2nd. He died a few years ago. He’d fucked most of the women at his funeral, grandmothers, mothers, their daughters and grand daughters. They were all sitting with his wife and daughters, all weeping uncontrollably. He was a full fledged deacon at his Anglican Church. He always had an angle how establishing friendships would benefit him. He got two free homes built for him, on and on. He gave new meaning to the saying, ” Luckier than a shithouse rat.”
I had to fight to maintain my composure at his funeral as looking at all of those people started a review of the tragic comedy to play in my mind. When he finally confessed to me by phone, 2 am, under the courage of a 24 beer, he said he figured he’d,” made me feel better because he certainly did.” His greater mission was to bring me back to god. I think I may have mentioned both fucking and god in my immediate response. I think he had passed out because my line went out of service and he didn’t speak any more.
On the other side, years now, of feeling about that little disclosure, I am laughing. Because in the eyes of all those who “, DIDN’t ” know that God fearing Jesus loving man best,” he’s a fucking saint. I could probably get an audience with Francis by just dropping his name.
I’ve never met you, but given what you’ve written here about your family and your growing up, it’s amazing you are as sane as you come across to me to be, if kind of quirky. You must have incredible survival instincts and a good soul.
My sustaining defense was to love everybody. I met a healthy mentor early in my 20’s who introduced me to Primal. But we weren’t really pals. I am absolutely sane. I trust too easily; getting better at that. I have never had a friend who didn’t betray me. I’d like to have that. Someone who would have my back. Someone who respects my opinion as much as I do them. I hope to meet a woman to fall in love with again. I love being in love and I’m really good at being a partner. Unfortunately I have always awakened closed down women who then go on like 19 year olds having discovered the best candy in the world. Wonder how a person can look across a room and spot an extrovert who is actually emotionally unavailable.
I was very sick with a nasty virus and dealing with a spinal injury, December and January. My, ” best,” friend knew I was in pain and couldn’t even walk some days. I can see his house from mine. Friends and former band mates for 40 years. I saved his life twice. He lived at my house for a year while recovering from homelessness and addictions.
I never heard from him until February when he was climbing the walls from dealing with his new wife and he needed a pack of cigarettes. I crawled to my car got his cigarettes, delivered them and he said thanks and that he needed to go for a nap. You cannot touch narcissists only admire them. I know what the score is. I make a conscious decision to take left overs. That’s all I got as a kid,
I have feelings about that, Larry, hurt, anger, sadness from the hopelessness; cry my heart out. But it doesn’t alter the reality of surviving in the real world.But in LA, I didn’t have any friends either; just people that simulated friendship as long as I propped them up. I had a woman who one time took me camping with her to Oxnard, as I found out because she didn’t want to go alone. She did come around to say goodbye when I left to come home.
Yesterday my friend was at work and got called to do a gig after work. His wife wouldn’t let him use her car to drive home to get his gear. She’s a control freak. So he phoned and I dropped off one of my guitars, amp, pedal board and stuff. Ended up he didn’t play so he had me drive him home. By then it was 7 pm. He said he was going to have a nap. So I came home. But he was really going out with his wife and her cool friends, who still have the emotional maturity of 14 year olds but make huge money. And she can struggle with their alcoholic personalities that mimic her father’s.
I should tell him to fuck off, but there are 8000 people in our 4000 square mile county; someone to occasionally talk to beats nobody.
Guess that makes me sound pretty pathetic.
I’ve rambled on enough. Turn me on and I don’t know when to stop. Oh it was at sweat lodge 2008, someone told their sad story, and remarked that their experience was beyond the understanding of my perfect life and my permasmile.. So I shared a little. That person has never made eye contact with me since. Fucked up his image of me. I’m not supposed to be human.
|I’m tired of that, too.
gudnite, Larry, wherever ya are. Thank you for caring.
I was traumatized when I first starting hanging with professional musicians. A song writer and an absolute sook, I wrongly assumed that these giants of song who wrote those feeling drenched ditties were my kind of people. Most were completely devoid of feeling and absolute women using / abusing, people using pricks. They may have had feelings when they wrote and first performed their songs. By the time I played with them they were juke boxes, put some dope in get a tune out. They used their wives like shit. Like my brilliant non physically abusive father; he hit me once; but hated me; they left their wives often in middle of no where housing with no money to fend for themselves; wouldn’t fix a fucking water pump or the wives cars.
David – it seems you write in a great rush – I know that feeling and I do it too, actually at time I love that feeling feels ‘creative’ in a way that I hardly ever feel other wise. But something tells me to tell you try slowing down a bit. The words tumble out in a great rush and I find myself ‘skipping’ over them a bit. If you try to convey too much you run the danger of conveying less at least at times
I hope you don’t mind it’s not meant as ‘criticism’ but I think you have been a re-refreshing voice here and in my ideal blog/world we could help each other and give each other tips without causing offence and fights. That just my impressions of you.
Accepted in the spirit offered, Patrick, thank you. Yeah I feel an urgency ,kind of like the memory, the thoughts may get lost before I get it down. I tend to live in a rush; odd, physically I move slow as hell. what’s that state called that is actually impossible to exist ? hmmm,oh ” multitasking.”
I have been reading a lot about vaccines………………I found this very interesting. It is about so called SIDS which stands for “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome” which used to be in the news quite a bit. Not so much now just accepted?? or no longer news worthy?? I don’t know.
“According to Harris Coulter PhD, “Crib death” was so infrequent in the pre-vaccination era that it was not even mentioned in statistics. It started to climb in the 1950s with the spread of mass vaccinations. So much so it even acquired a new name-“SIDS,” Sudden Infant Death Syndrome of unknown origin. The medical establishment assures us that SIDS is unrelated to vaccines which begs the question; How do you know its not vaccines if it is of unknown origin? The three primary doses of DPT are given at two, four and six months of age. Eighty-five per cent of SIDS deaths occur from one to six months of age, with the peak incidence from two to four months. Another coincidence?
In a recent study of SIDS, breathing was monitored before and after vaccination. The data clearly showed that vaccination caused an extraordinary increase in episodes where breathing either nearly ceased or stopped completely. This is why it is so important to have our babies sleep on their backs, if you plan on vaccinating. It is easier for them to breath. Another problem associated with breathing is Asthma. Vaccinated children are shown to be five times more likely to become afflicted with this serious respiratory ailment.
Dr. William Torch of the University of Nevada School of Medicine did a study of 103 children who died of SIDS. He found that more than two-thirds had been vaccinated with DPT prior to death. Of these, 6.5% died within 12 hours; 13 % died within 24 hours; 26% died within 3 days; and 37, 61 and 70 % within 1,2,3 weeks respectively. Anything that happens to a baby after four weeks is considered God-given. The average time it takes for a vaccine to dissipate in the body is 10-12 days. Click here for Dr Buttram’s explanation. Even if a baby dies immediately after a vaccination the cause of death will be labeled SIDS”.
SIDS would make a good study Patrick. There’s a report in one of Arthur’s books, maybe,” the Feeling Child,” that found similarities between SIDS and suicide victims. Another of his investigative studies showed moms of Primalees dealing with particular issues reported having undergone life threatening events at about 7 months gestation.
. A study by Dr. Henry Kempe, Colorado, in the 70’s showed the SIDS babies they studied had all had, ” Hard Births,”. Hard birth was defined as premature, post mature, with physical signs of fetal distress: ie: meconium staining / the presence of fecal matter in the amniotic fluid at birth,
When I was doing my research, there had never been a recorded case of SIDS where there was another human in the same room at the time of death; and like the Janov study, regardless of how young, the infant had always changed body position from how their caretaker laid them down to sleep.
I am not a pro – vaccinator and am suspicious of the effects of any toxins injected into our bodies, and that of little kids; aluminum, mercury, the Thimerisol carrier. A Naturopath colleague who is also an expert in pharmacology says the combination vaccines are a further danger.
One argument that puzzles me is if vaccination confers total immunity on the vaccinees, why the worry that the non vaccinated child poses a risk to them ???
I try to maintain a healthy paranoia filter but man to believe there really is a world based mind control conspiracy is a bit to swallow.
David – right there you have asked the right question. IF it confers ‘immunity’ what are they so afraid of from non vaccinated children? It doesn’t make sense like any of their arguments if you delve into them.
Like a lot that Janov says I am a bit skeptical……………..not that he is so wrong but he always attempts to shoehorn a problem into HIS paradigm. And misses the boat as a result.
This business about the infant needing to lay on it’s back and to watch that it does not lay on it’s front hardly makes any sense. I imagine that the infant lays down on it’s front to die it ‘wants’ to die or it is time for it to die from the shots not that it can’t breath in that position. About another person being in the room I would be skeptical of that also from what I have read these infants/children often die in the parents arms
And it is not only what I read, last Saturday I met a woman I know quite well……………anyway we got to talking about vaccines she said a friend of her’s had ‘missed’ all the early vaccines the child was 4 y. o. anyway she was told/convinced she needed to ‘catch up’ on her vax schedule and did…………….that evening the child DIED in her arms. So I would say there is something MORE going on than a ‘hard birth’ or nobody being in the room.
Janov is great and everything but it is always his tendency to as I call it ‘shoehorn’ the evidence that has made him so irrelevant in the world of science and actually in the world as we live and it and know it – all of course IMHO…………….
It was the research of Colorado Pediatrician and child abuse prevention expert advocate, Dr. Henry Kempe, et al ,beginning in 1960 that I was studying when I was involved with investigating child abuse and SIDS deaths events. Clinical hallmarks of Unexplained Sudden Death in Infancy included that the baby was always alone, had always moved to a different location in he crib, and had assumed a fetal position; and was never over 9 months of age..
In all other cases a cause of death was found at autopsy.
Dr. Kempe was able to verify the , ” hard birth, ” component, in 1962. We were able to practice prevention by simply assuring that the at risk baby was never left alone; slept in the parents room, was carried in a front Snuggly, never alone in a rear position car seat, until the babe had passed the 9 month risk to die unexpectedly cut off. Incidentally those babies were also at higher risk for child abuse.
,
In several cases I investigated, the baby had been murdered and the doctor and the undertaker failed to report the condition of the body.
I studied with Dr. Kempe
A medical research team that Janov commissioned delivered the independent report. that found similarities between suicides and SIDS babies. A much later and separate team dealt with a feeling level specific group whose mothers were interviewed and they volunteered that they each had suffered a life threatening experience at about 7 months gestation.
I agree Arthur erred in not ensuring Primal Therapy became an available choice wherever psychotherapy is practiced. I am guilty of that protective behavior, too, Patrick, but because I could not trust other staff to treat patients, competently and respectfully.
But I believe it is unproductive and misdirected to piss all over the man just because he breathes.
David – that’s very interesting. However your last sentence I find strange in the extreme. To me shows the kind of ‘primal touchiness’ where anything but worshipful praise of Janov is ‘pissing all over’ him??? That’s why PT is sometimes called ‘cultist’ To make it easy on you I will give you the 2 things I said about him here again…………….is that really ‘pissing all over’ him
First Quote “Like a lot that Janov says I am a bit skeptical……………..not that he is so wrong but he always attempts to shoehorn a problem into HIS paradigm. And misses the boat as a result.”
Second Quote “Janov is great and everything but it is always his tendency to as I call it ‘shoehorn’ the evidence that has made him so irrelevant in the world of science and actually in the world as we live and it and know it – all of course IMHO…………….
If he is so great how come the therapy as constituted is effectivly dissapearing? Something went wrong somewhere along the way……………
I don’t know the answer Patrick, but I think it is in part a result of the decision to keep therapy under close ,” quality,” control that resulted in Primal no longer being on everyone’s tongue.
I know in my country Allopathic / MD drug pushing medicine worked hard to defame and ridicule the theory of Primal from the get go. AA members and drug addicts were insulted that Dr. Janov classified their addictions as the product of neurosis/mental illness. They like to delude themselves into believing they have congenital physical diseases, incurable and only controllable by drugs and daily dib dib dibbing and dob dob dobbing to their christian god.
Our mock Primal center charged the fee of sticks of gum, or 10 cent bags of dulse to people who could not afford to pay, allowing them the dignity of a symbolic choice of treatment.
We had the cooperation of an oddly healthy middle aged Brit psychiatrist in the beginning.
Mental Health was happy to allow chronic patients to be accepted into treatment, I witnessed catatonic schizophrenics, heal, reversing the path if you like, from psychotic to neurotic to just normally fucked up like me. Our patients came from all over the world.
As soon as chronically mentally ill patients and alcoholics got well, meds free, and idol worship free, then the medical and psychiatric community and AA came after us.
Our Director was so excited with the results that he agreed with a patient request that they hold a symposium to share their grand fortune with doctors and the community at large. At that meeting several former hard core alcoholics told how they were able to drink safely. That was as blasphemous as soiling a christian religious statue with male bodily fluids…
The final straw came when we accepted a 32 year old , ” schizophrenic,” young woman, daughter of a male psychiatrist and mother pediatrician.with a history of long term closed psych ward containment. Long story short, she healed from the pain of her parents ritualistic sexual abuse from age 10 – 14, when she made a disclosure of sexual abuse and her father had her committed, treated with courses of ECT and Chlorpromazine for nearly 2 decades until an aunt rescued her.
That was the final nail in the coffin of Primal clinics of Atlantic Canada. .
I am a fair person, Patrick, and I would rather there be a private way to say this. I know I have at least a 100 % chance of being wrong; I have no desire to give anyone extra fodder to piss on you. What I say is said without mean spirit or trying to be so smart; but, when you write about Dr. Janov your hate for the guy is palpable, I can taste it. I hope you take this in the spirit I offer it. And I’m not interested in changing anyone’s opinion about anything. What do I know ??
I believe that Dr. Janov’s discovery should be the hallmark of psychotherapy, not an obscure cult class alternative..
I have seen the the damage done by the mind fucking games of conventional psychiatry and psychology with their DSM dial a diagnosis, ECT, lobotomies, the manipulative condescending dialogue and mind controlling drugs, including the needless suicides. I witnessed the physical and sexual abuse of committed patients.
I am not know for my blind or easily solicited praise, Patrick. My level of creature comfort would have been better if I was.
david
I was an uneducated sheep when my kids were small. We accepted vaccinations blindly. They were ill after every vaccination and it was called a normal response. It was an anti Rubella vaccine injected into my wife when she was exposed to German Measles in her first Trimester of pregnancy that was deemed the probable cause of our baby girl’s congenital heart deformity; transposition of the great vessels.
Vaccinations are neither tested for safety nor efficacy in humans.
David – I am so sorry to hear that. Apparently now that is the new ‘trend’ (I am not saying that was the case with your wife) but the new ‘trend’ is to vaccinate in utero which makes sense from their demented viewpoint. In other words vaccinating against Hepatitis B at one day old is not QUITE ‘safe enough. We need to get them while in the womb. That way they can emerge into this super dangerous world of bugs and germs ‘armed’ and ‘defended’ by their so called vaccinations
Kind of an interesting twist on the Catholic thing where we born a ‘sinner’ or ‘impure’ we needed Baptism to wash away our ‘sins’. Now it’s the world that is ‘impure’ it is full of bugs and germs that the infant must be inoculated against. On balance as ‘bad’ as it was i would take the Catholic version every time
From my reading I have become convinced that ALL vaccinations are either dangerous or just worthless and ineffective but the real tragedy now is they get the children/infants so young and so many shots.
I was taking to my brother in Ireland and they have just come up with ANOTHER one cattle have to vaccinated against. A neighbor told him it’s 2 shots and something squirted up the nose and costs 20 Euro. Can you imagine the money in that (there are lots of cattle in Ireland) and the result will be further weakening of the herd.and discouraging of the farmers. A crazy and bad world we live in………………again to sort of turn the Catholic thing upside down. So it’s like it is true what the vaxxers say but ironically it is BECAUSE of what they do there is nothing inherently ‘bad’ about the world. Another of those self fulfilling prophecies……………
Yep, we keep fucking with, ” normal,” and then the abnormal becomes the new normal. I tend to just say what I believe is true but most of my fellow Naturopaths and MD’s who are kindred spirits only speak their mind behind closed doors, scared of being black listed as ubernuts…
The history begins in earnest in the late 1800’s when the Hearsts, Rockerfellas, Duponts, Emersons, bought political favor in return for being president makers. Alloparhic Medicine , (MD’s,) cut, burn and poison , aka surgery, radiation, and chemical drugs, They killed natural medicine and with their acquired monopoly replaced it with their wealth making machine. Now Big Petro owns Big Pharma, and patents on all medical machines; that owns all of the Hospitals that own all of the Medical Clinics…….. And they are currently making that monopoly around the world. Australia just enacted laws that says if you refuse to have yourself and your babies vaccinated the government will not sign any government generated cheques payable to you, pay cheques, social security cheques, baby bonus, etc.. A buddy of mine says that the fascists are set to take over as soon as the christianity organized crime bosses die off.
The AMA killed, breast feeding, vaginal delivery, babies being raised by their mamas, and home baking and home cooking. I believe that explains a good deal of the impairment of natural immunity.
The same scenario made the little known and unimportant orange the King fruit of America.
>
> I must confess I also started recently to ‘skip through’ a lot of the comments, and had completely missed David talking about being abused in his childhood.
> just to be clear, it is not only your comments I started to only read partially, David, it was anyone’s mostly, the long stories about movers or the details of primal theory being right or wrong etc., sorry, too much of it, for me at this moment I guess..
>
> David, I still think you probably misinterpreted something I wrote as being ‘nasty’ to you, wish you’d have answered to that one, but well..
>
> this goes for Patrick as well, in my opinion when we are ‘lashing out’ to someone, it is not enough to say ‘that is why I did it’, or in serious cases, even an apology does not necessarily make it all right again.
> don’t get me wrong,I am actually a good ‘forgiver’, really.
> I guess what I want to say is forgiveness being possible is not a free ticket to just be allowed to say or do whatever expecting it will not have lasting consequences.
>
> if things like that happen just one time too often, it seems just a healthy reaction to stay clear as much as possible from the person that caused hurt or behaved in an offensive or hostile way.
>
> it then for me can only change when I get the feeling that person is adressing on more than a superficial level what caused his or her behaviour, and expresses to be sorry in a genuine way, which can only be one’s own personal subjective response then, whether and to which w
> extend one feels willing then to make peace again or not.
>
> but this goes for Jack, I wonder why if not wanting to make up, which I can understand, you still want to ‘poke’?
> I am not saying it is wrong or right, but curious why really you do it, what feeling makes you want to do it.
> and please, don’t just say ‘it is fun’, I htink it is more than that.
> is it anger, or defending your teritory, not wanting to give in, fear?
>
> really, just curious, I don’t count on an answer really, it would be nice, but well, just expressing myself here..
> M
I like most everything you say there Margaret including what I have to ‘learn’ it can be a painful lesson. Honestly I took primal as benediction for any and all kinds of expressions/insults whatever etc. Well anyway I find that is not the real world so have to pretty much take that on board.
I think Freud talked about that like if one is to lift one’s own repression the world does not just change for you……………the world is still the same.
I admire the way you come through things you are a fighter but also a forgiver…………..I think that is a good combination.
I want to apologize to you also about coming on so strong about vaccines etc…………the thing is when I get ‘passionate’ about something I want to tell the whole world so to speak. I understand all of this hit you from left field you were kind of just in the way. I did not plan any of this I asked you about your cat and vaccinations just at the beginning of this and then learned and found out more and more. But I know you were an un-suspecting person on the road who sort of just got ran over
The only thing I would suggest now is think just a bit about what you will do to your ‘new’ cat if you get one. DON’T take the word of vets etc to me that is the beginning of lots of mistakes. It’s interesting too my brother and all the farmers in Ireland are being directed and told what to do by “Brussels” as they call it actually the EU. The EU is FULL of regulations they have effectively ruined all Irish farming to the point where farmers do not dare to drink the milk they produce
You live close to Brussels………….the atmosphere of regulation and interfering with Nature is strong there……………..the Irish know better if only they would listen to their ancestral wisdom……………….but sadly mostly they don’t. They because of their inferior feeling about themselves allow themselves to be told what to do by their ‘betters’. That used to be the English but now it’s the EU (Brussels)
Margaret I quote you:- “but this goes for Jack, I wonder why if not wanting to make up, which I can understand, you still want to ‘poke’?………………………………………………… and please, don’t just say ‘it is fun’, I think it is more than that.”
As best as I am able, I will answer you. First off, there is an historical connection between Patrick and I almost 30 years. That 30 years cannot be ignored (from my perspective) Next:- Patrick entered this blog in what I perceived as an attempt to humiliate me perhaps even attempt to hurt me. None of which it achieved, as best as I am currently aware. What I felt was:- Patrick was wanting something, but he was using a means that I felt was crazy; characterized by some in Gentle Giant as “verbal bullying” (something I feel he learned in the school yard as a kid). He never bullied me since I felt he knew he did not dare, because I was more than useful to the company and it’s operation
Patrick NOW begins to tell me that he was in a desperate situation and wanting me to do something for him. I was willing but I had a one condition; prior stated. Had Patrick approached me in a different manner I might have been willing to indulge him and reconsider. However during that 30 years of knowing him I had watched how he dealt with others (a practice I did not like), but since he was dealing with someone else I did not interfere. Suddenly I now found he was attempting to use that same modality on me. I thought then (mistakenly) he would see that this approach with me was not working. I now see this as a blind spot in him, but he continues in this manner, not only with me, but others including you Margaret.
Why I wish to “poke” him is I wish to be a ‘counter balance’ to what I see as his “desperate” attempt to use this blog to “re-organize Primal Therapy and dispute Primal Theory and castigate Arthur Janov. You, I gathered, wished for him to be banned, if only for a time. Because of who and what I am, I will counter his approach, by what ever means I have at my disposal (Pokes). In the hopes that it at least shows others he’s off on some tangent/s. (first Paleo, now vaccines and I am sure his old feelings will find [through his prolific reading] some other means).
Lastly:- Does it bother you Margaret that I am having FUN doing it? I know in the past you have stated you do not ‘like it at others expense’ …. but I noticed few jumped upon Patrick for his vitriol against me … save Gretchen initially. Ok, if you feel it is more than just that, perhaps you are right, and this is one of my blind spots. What I would like from you Margaret is to tell me directly and simply (don’t hold back cos I can take it from you) what you feel is going on with me in this incessant poking of Patrick. You don’t have to be right (as I feel you already know) … just express what it is you feel.
Jack, You say one reason you poke Patrick is as a counter balance to the things he says. But I find it hard to believe you think Patrick could have some effect on primal by what he says on this blog. Also the participating bloggers are limited in number and there is nothing new in what you and Patrick say in the interaction. You are not reaching a huge audience. It all seems pointless, repetitive, and annoying. That’s maybe why I was referring to it as a primal comedy routine. You guys got to freshen it up and add new material. I was hoping you would take Patrick up on his offer for reconciliation if only so you would stop poking him. My assumption is Patrick is angry because primal hasn’t work out for him. He seemingly no longer has any trust in therapists or the process, so it couldn’t work. So, you might think it’s time to move on. Phil
Phil: I have said in the past that Patrick has a great talent as a salesman … and to the unititiated, be convincing. Hence, I do beleive he could do one of two things here on this blog. The first is:- others that might have some doubt about the effacacy of this therapy might be convinced by what he says, without some counter response. That I would find a great pity. The second is that there are, out there, others, and possibly reading this blog, though not commenting, characterized as “Primal deniers”. They then could take all this back to their own blog as instances of a Primal person, to demonstrate the lack of what they deem is the ineffectiveness of Primal.
Being that I feel strongly that the discovery of “Primal Pain”was the greatest discovery ever made… or for that matter, will ever be made. Why!!! because finally I see it, we humans have now discovered something about OURSELVES … I see that, as way more important that what is happening out there in our known universe … or any other aspect of science. It could, by my way of thinking, perhaps restore us to our original full-feeling-selves. Hopefully before we totally wipe out all life on this planet.
Ok. I realize, and perhaps with good cause you find it pointless, repetative and annoying … that is not my feeling … but then I could be way off point here. It is for that very reason that I am prepared to read anyone that has a some notion of what they perceive is going on with me. I will read it and as best I know how give it great consideration.
Jack, Maybe there are more people reading the blog than I was thinking. If there are, it would great if they would participate by posting. I noticed some good news by the way; the “debunking primal” website is no longer seems to be around. Phil
Phil: I really do feel there are more people than is assumed, reading this blog and not commenting. I am not sure of their reason, but I will proffer some:- Most of us want to be thought of as good and nice people (a myth IMO) Another could is that they have little to say, but wish only to be entertained or edificated by other’s ideas. Another could be that they are scarred shit-less lest someone jumps on their case (old feeling stuff there, I feel). Perhaps one last egocentric one in that they feel above it all.
Just stuff off the top of my head at the moment of reading your response. Maybe just a figment of my (weird) imagination.
I do feel that the purpose of the blog is to stimulate feelings and hopefully to get readers to respond. My reasoning being that Barry B in one group I attended suggested that we just say the first thing that comes into our heads. To me, that represent the real me (in my case). Censoring what I say is what I had to do as a kid and I feel what many others had to do. By going with what Barry suggested I feel puts each of us into that vulnerable position we encountered in our childhoods and hence could be capable of precipitating what is behind all our trepidation. To take another piece from a therapist I deeply admire,Vivian, who often said “Take a risk”
So far; my taking those kinds of risks have not killed me … yet.
Thanks for this post Jack. I fear I may have non deliberately entertaining myself composing the long but totally true accounts of my life.
One reason I can see for the long windedness is that I always had to deliver a convincing account of events as a defense to escape my mother’s beatings..
Fuck it must drive people ion the receiving end nuts. I always found my father’s soliloquies boring and infuriating.
David: for what it’s worth; don’t take what anyone might say about you writing here. Just write your thing, your way and when you feel like it, as I feel you are doing. I read you, but not sure l know where you are at or where you are coming from, most of the time … maybe a factor of getting passed 80. To and for me, that’s not relevant. It comes to all of us, as I see it, in bits and pieces..
The great insight I got some time ago was there is no “end point’ to this therapy. Just more and more of feeling this stuff and each time getting better at expressing it. All I am able to do is see what others say about me as some mirror being held up to me. I need all that, as I am not the only person in the universe. My universe yeah! … but then there are these little bugs (not the living kind) swearling around that “bug” me.
A good place for me to state unequivocally that I believe Primal Therapy holds the greatest hope for recovery from mental illness. I have seen miracles result. And I’m not an easy sell.
I remember running to Barry B to rat out patient John ### who was making horribly disparaging remarks about Primal, at the hotel on Pico. He told me to save my money and go home, that it was crap, the Institutes were a fraud.. I was really worried that he could scare off people who really needed therapy. Barry told me and I quote, ” I have great respect for that man. He has the courage to say what he feels.”
I felt whipped by , ” daddy,”. I had been the good boy and got the shit kicking.
Somehow nobody ever said anything like that to me…………………..and I never said (that I remember) that it was ‘crap’ or a ‘fraud’. Sometimes actually though he has never said anything like that I imagine Barry reading some of the stuff I write and even ‘agreeing’ with me. Honestly I don’t think I am so ‘anti-primal’ at all I know LOTS of people who have done the therapy and are completely ‘over’ it, I and maybe unfortunately for me am still in a kind of uncomfortable middle……………but I do believe and feel I am going through something I am working towards something. Keep in mind the people here while maybe mostly all on the same page are a self selected group and not at typical the way I see of people who have gone through therapy. Me I am not ‘typical’ either just my own freaking painful self but anyway I feel I am on a path that’s good for me.
I was thinking how do I ‘place’ myself and I thought of Martin Luther (not MLK) I am talking about the German friar who broke away from the Catholic Church. He didn’t reject Jesus or Christianity or the Bible but his DID object to some of the actual practice of the Church. Anyway just a conceit I had…………….but I did order a book on Luther have not got it yet but something tells me it will be interesting to me……….Phil puts me in some category of someone who can’t or won’t trust therapists or something I find that shallow and a bit weak…………………..
Whoa, Whoa, Patrick; I must be a terrible communicator. I never said that you said that stuff; rather a guy I called, “John.” No one on this blog.
Friends of mine in LA had John pick me up at LAX and drive me to the famous PICO BUNDY hotel. He crapped on Primal, the Janov’s, and the therapists.. I learned from him , too, that Arthur and Vivian had divorced. That was shocking !! The god that knew the magic to save me wasn’t there.
John told me to save my money and go back home, that the therapy and the therapists were frauds.
My point in telling the story is what happened when I ratted John out to Barry. My motivation was honorable. I was worried he might interfere with someone in need of therapy.
Barry’s response was what is important. He didn’t reward me. He said that he had enormous respect for John because John had the courage to speak his mind. He was not interested in stifling criticism. That adds to the Institute’s credibility for me.
This was not in reference to you Patrick. I would be a Tyrranosaurus PRICK if I behaved that way to you.
I do not know Dr. Janov , and only Vivian, Barry, Gretchen, as any patient knows them. I would trust them with my life.
I don’t share the opinion of anyone that the therapy is ineffective nor do I have any facts that would cause me to conclude that Dr.Janov is Dr Evil. There is proof for me that he is Dr Genius for having described this therapy.
When I read your original comment Phil, I thought , shit, this Jack and Patrick are pals, co – conspirators writing this scrip, luring the rest of us into feeling states. How generous of them .That made it more palatable. Wow, but if it is just what it is, that’s really sad, from my perspective.
I was in a cab in Toronto years ago heading to Hamilton, and while chatting about what I worked at, the cabbie passed me a letter. He told me about some guy, a former close friend, he’d fallen out with 30 years before. He said he’d decided to accept the olive branch this former friend had offered from time to time. He passed me the letter saying, ” This explains it all.” I looked at the letter that started , ” Dear Ed,…” and passed it back saying , ,”Ed,” it didn’t feel right for me to read his friend’s letter to him. He answered that he was Alvin, his friend was Ed. Said he’d carried that letter around for weeks trying to get to mailing it. Now it was too late. Ed’s wife had phoned that evening to say Ed was dead, killed while stopped to render assistance to someone.
” That would be Ed, he said, always had to get involved…”
They’ve been at each other’s throats on this blog for probably at least 3 years, beginning when Patrick first appeared on the blog. When they put on a fight and duke it out round after lengthy round, it makes a person not want to bother with this blog. Their exchanges were a lot more vitriolic in the past. Recently there was a rare, brief, sensitive exchange between them, a fascinating turn to witness.
Larry: I take ‘exception’ to this latest comment of yours … I need to explain my feelings about a) ‘blogging’, b) ‘feelings’ and their place in life, c) ‘running away’ from all that we perceive as unpleasant.
BLOGGING: is a forum for the exchange of idea and opinions … whatever those opinions might entail. If you merely wish for it all to be “lovey dovey” (my phrase) … then I feel you are in the wrong forum.
FEELINGS and their place in life: All feelings are valid and that will inevitably involve feelings we do not always like If you really feel bad about the way the blog is going; I know not what you can do … BUT to try and change the tempo of the blog, to me, is a forlorn task.
RUNNING AWAY from all that we feel is unpleasant:- is not a solution, as I see it: We can ignore it, skip over those comments we feel bad about, or express our feeling about them… BUT “not want[ing] to bother with the blog” I feel is a cop-out.
Jack, don’t get your knickers in a twist, and fuck….are you preaching to me? If you are, enough patronizing preaching already. It makes me angry when someone tries to preach to me what I already know better than them. If you aren’t preaching, then what is the feeling underneath what you wrote, driving you to write it?
The venom between you and Patrick was a lot more vicious two or so years ago. You want to sit through a bar fight like the one between the motor cycle gangs in Waco, Texas, go ahead, be my guest. Not me. I walk away from bar fights and find better things to do. It’s a totally valid feeling about unpleasant bar fights that guides my life well, Jack.
You two have become a lot more civil to each other in the last year or so, so the blog doesn’t stink as bad as it did then. I haven’t walked away. I still get what I need from it. To those who stay away, either they don’t need it or they’re otherwise busy. It’s nice to see a newcomer, David, join. The blog will be whatever the people who participate here make it to be. Hopefully the people here will be sensitive enough to let others explore their feelings here. That’s what is most important to me.
You are truly gifted with clarity of written thought, Jack. I wish I had it. Patrick pointed out to me, kindly, how my using too many words can detract from the message being read.
I think me daring to expose what was done to me and then what I did to me by buying in is more important to me than considering if it will be read. It’s nice to hear kind comments though.
Someone will tell me I’m full of shit sometime, I’m sure.. hah Having survived Bella the rest of the world is not up to the task.
Just remembered going to a ” Primal,” folks birth day party in LA.. During the evening seeing her standing alone I kissed the gal who I went with on the forehead. It really upset her because she worried I had, ” marked,” her; ie: no other guy would hit on her because I had staked claim with that friend kiss on her forehead.
I went outside for a smoke and was overcome by my teenage feeling of not belonging anywhere. Mom was right again, no pretty girl would ever want to be with me, a fat, ugly faced guy.
David: let me be the first on to tell you are full of shit. How do I know … well sometime, minutes after my birth, I started shitting and have been doing it ever since. I did hope that I would reach a point when I was all emptied out, and rid of all that messy smelly stuff. But alas it keeps on coming. I gather that you are in the same dilemma, so there you have it … you must be full of shit also. 🙂 .
Boy!!! this language that my folk in that piece of the islands in the North Sea devised this lingua and it’s so full of absurdities … puns, onomatopoeia, hyperbola, paradoxes, ironies. alliterations and some other stuff that my English teacher taught me that I have since forgotten.
My father had a thing about shit. What’s so terrible about it? we all do it … so I am given to understand.
We deride the anus (arse hole) and other parts in that same region. What with us humans????
Jack
P.S. In the film (movie) “Amadeus” the music master to the Emperor told Mozart there were “too many notes … cut a few” Wolfgang responded with “which few did you have in mind?”
Probably too big a coincidence , Margaret, Brussels, were you ever an interpreter ?
Margaret, I have been , ” feeling,” doing, ” mock,” Primal,since the early 70’s then the real thing mid 80’s. I was a Professional Social Worker, psychotherapist, Dr. of Naturopathy, Homeopath a Certified Counselor, musician, singer songwriter.. I cringe at saying , “i was,”; because I think it sounds pretentious. but it’s the quickest way to say how I served. And I don’t know if this is neurotic but I always felt/thought I was a fraud.
I am probably the most kindly, forgiving soul I know. Over the past 2 years I began to quit people with whom I had one way relationships; ones where I permitted myself to be used. I’ve been a bit pissed off lately. One thing that’s clear is that I have always aquiesced to ,” understanding,” people, but I have never been extended that same understanding. I changed a bit and overreaction accompanies change while trying on new skin. I don’t take anything that sounds like, ” you don’t know shit about me,” shit. And I don’t react well if I get that spidey sense tingle that someone is trying to manipulate
me out of my right to my feelings. It’s not like I have spent time thinking about it but the evidence is clear, being genuinely, kind, accepting did not affect the outcome one little bit towards establishing real friendships. So while I wish no one harm I no longer associate with those people. And I tell people in socially acceptable ways mostly not to fuck with me.
It feels like making myself vulnerable to give you an apology Margaret right now; but don’t concern yourself with it. I’m practicing standing up for myself. That’s coming from feelings not my head.
As the cowardly party leaving an intimate relationship and wanting to get away unscathed always says to the other, , ” It isn’t you, it’s me.”
I can’t even make a witty remark without people who know my character should know when I am joking. But, no, I’m chided for saying something silly. I was so serious a guy up to age 60, always oh so careful to never say anything that could possibly be misunderstood that would hurt another. Now I am free to be as silly as I wish. I am now as witty as I always wished I was when I was a younger man. And I will be as ridiculous as I choose. I will never deliberately hurt anyone and will help anyone I can. That’s my character.
>
> just saw a program about possible other causes of allergies becoming so widespread.
> one of them was in some countries 25 procent of the births have become caesareans now, robbing the child from certain bacteria the birth canal provides for them, covering their whole bodies at birth with a layer of these bacteria, which work like an anti-allergic boosting the immune system.
> then another factor is our internal biotope of bacteria is becoming too poor, too little getting in touch with outdoor natural life, animals and earth etc.
>
> well, I have got my share of that as a kid luckily, used to be playing out in the ‘dirt’ all day, and even craled into our dog’s small doghouse once,remember just fitting in, and it being kind of dusty and hairy inthere, and well, smelling of dog, smiley..
> i agree with there probably being overvaccinating nowadays, but well, would want to be careful not to throw out the child with the bathwater so to say.
> polio was such a terrible disease, if a fairly safe vaccine can prevent thousands of children to get paralysed or disabled, well, it ba becomes a question of balancing I guess.
>
> the plague being another example of a horrible disease having almost disappeared.
>
> but well, I agree on the fact too many vaccinations can be equally harmful, but I am not at all an expert on the matter, can only say it is good there is a discussion going on about it..
>
> M
I listened to that about a year ago Margaret. I was really into the obstetrician narrating the presentation until he got down to how they propose righting the situation. They want to continue controlling women’s bodies and raking in the income from their factory farm deliveries. So instead of returning C Sections to it’s proper status, last ditch response to EMERGENCY LIfe Saving Procedure, instead of system convenience and control of women, Doctor plays golf at 3pm, they propose swabbing the mom’s vaginal canal and swearing the secretions over the babies body. These same geniuses called the wonderful Dr. Frederick LeBoyer nasty names when he suggested that doctors so inoculate their hands before touching newborns.
Vaginal deliveries need to be reinstated as the primary delivery procedure.
I agree, Margaret. All of the hand sanitizers, antibacterial soaps and sprays, wrecking the biome we need to encounter and defeat in establishing a competent immune response.. Like letting the boy in the bubble out… The percentage of intestinal bacterium ratio to total contents weight in a healthy bowel is significant. They play a huge part in an innumerable number of processes.
My youngest daughter and her 14 year old erudite friends rewrote that tune, substituting the lyrics of filthy mouthed 14 year olds, .” I got held down,, and i ‘m knocked up ag’in….. I knew 14 year old boys did that, I was one once, but prim, proper, 14 year old ballerinas??? I snuck off so as not to embarrass them.hah. She’s a wonderful 36 year old, multi degreed strong woman, and, great mom now;;and out of ear shot of her kids she has the mouth of a pirate. She never heard it from me. I thought I was imaginative, but she’s found creative applications for the word , “fuck,” I never thought of. And I cringe to hear that sweet little girl say it…hah
‘m liucky , I guess, Larry. Was it my wonder grampy?? I don’t know. Maybe it was avoiding attracting pain. I have not a clue. But I managed survive to hold a 40 year career in human sciences and the respect of coworkers who were decent to others. The bureaucrats I’m proud to say hated me. I have served on charities, the last one I have served for 45 years and chaired for 30, so I am able to play well with others. There are a dozen friends who would say I saved their lives.
But, I have never had a friend where I would always be welcome at any time, impossible to ever be an inconvenience to just one person. Maybe that’s an unreasonable expectation. Maybe that only comes from a healthy parent child relationship. Except, I have known people who have had that. And sometimes I go away from their presence , hurt, and cry
>
> Jack,
> thanks for your long and honest answer.
> it sounded genuine and made sense.
> to your question I cam only say I did not know really what your motives were, that is why I asked.
> what you said about the thirty years of history and Patrick’s entry on the blog makes me think there is indeed some anger involved, but all the other things you say make sense as well, so thanks for expanding a bit about what is your own stricktly personal mix of feelings.
> I am not opposing to any of it.
>
> Patrick, I know I said I would never adress you again, but well, I heard your apology,.
> if I may give another advice, it would be nice if you try to generalize a bit less.
> you’d be surprised at how some vets, even ones that live not very far from Brussels, also question the number of vaccinations that are given at this moment.
> people are individuals, with their individual opinions, which depend rarely or to a minimal degree of where they live, but much more on their interest and formation and general viewpoints that also keep evolving all the time.
> specially attributing opinions to people just because of the country they live in or the profession they have, well, it does not feel right to me.
>
> I have even mentioned before I have asked my vet about the vaccines and what she answered, so well, I hope you can see there was no ‘need’ to run me over to make your point so to say.
> truely hope you do reflect on this, as it would also help you a lot in my opinion.
> M
A professional acquaintance , a Phd in animal medicine, who uses Homeopathy primarily, and Acupuncture; and Natural Diets, and refuses to comply with euthanasia for human convenience requests, has been often threatened with loss of license for not practicing the standard,burn, cut and poison vet medicine. His satisfied owners would revolt .
Margaret – I think you can lighten up a bit about ‘generalizations’. When I say “Brussels” I am how would say joking is not quite right but anyway no need to take it so literally I mean about a specific place or country. I know if anything it is the whole EU policies
As far as you vet – I was reacting to all the stuff you constantly were saying about you cat, all the shots and creams and suits etc etc. And I am just saying maybe look at your ‘results’ Were the results good? From what I see they were not.
My ‘advice’ and I know that’s a dirty word here if you get a new cat JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, LET IT BE A CAT. That involves doing NOTHING or a ‘medical’ nature. That’s right NOTHING nothing at all. And when you will undoubted see much better ‘result’s you might then think a bit more in general about ‘medical interventions’
>
> the whole ‘medicalizing ‘ of the farming is maybe finding its concentration point in Brussels, but is a complex interaction between a lot of pressure groups, not to forget also the ‘bio-industry’, replacing traditional farming,which I find very worrying.
> annimals are only regarded as how much gain per kilo they offer, and how fast they can be forced to grow, it is a shocking and degrading evolution which I strongly oppose.
> the only thing I can do against it sadly enough, apart from supporting some animal defense groups, is not buying regular meat or as little as possible.
> it is the whole ‘marrket’ system which we as consumers form part of, if the majority of us keep bying ‘cheap’ meat, which actually means cruelly raised meat full of hormones and antibiotics, pressure will remain on the politicians making up the rules to keep their farming voters in the comercial race.
> animal rights pressure groups can only do so much if we as consumers don’t go along and support them with our own behavior.
> so well, even while I live close to Brussels, I would forbid what actually forms the bio-industry, it is a shame,a disgrace.
> M
David – I have been stretching my mind in trying to remember you. I think I can ‘see’ you now tall not really tall like 6-1, skinny and in good shape, a bit ‘curly’ hair not really curly just like a bit or a bit in front, talkative a little bit ‘self absorbed………………………….
It was (if I am on the right track) in the Brooks Ave house in the ‘living room’ which was just one sofa as the atual living room had been cordoned off and turned into a bedroom
I hope this is not boring to people I just did it as a bit of an exercise to let my mind recall it gradually came to me………………..not that I really know if I am right……………
I’d like to say, yes to tall and skinny and curlyish hair, and,” not me,” to self absorbed. I think I would not come off as self absorbed. I was 5’11”, pretty straight hair, shoulder length when 1st in LA and then,respectably short, per Frank’s recommendation. I am barrel chested, 190 lb when in good shape; an obese 240 lb when I arrived Aug 86; 190lb, 44- 46 ” chest and 32 ” waist when I left May, 87. I think both you and Frank were home, August 86, when Jerry and I answered your ad for new roommates wanted. We didn’t make the cut.
I think Tom Foley recommended me to Frank. It was my opinion Frank had started his own moving service by the time I began working for him. Rented Ryder trucks until he bought one, a cab over, in Colorado, I think, mid Fall 86.
I only remember someone eating in the kitchen; the day we moved the family out of Venice; the new guy I think Frank said. Brooks rt off of Venice heading south, your house just a few houses off Venice on left side of street ???
Yep I play wandering through history too; to prove my intact mental acuity to myself, hah !!!
Guess we can use this spot as we wish….
David – I am pretty sure it was you then all the physical features pretty much match…………..as far as ‘self absorbed’ that would be in the eye of the beholder. Do you think someone who doesn’t think they are ‘self absorbed’ quite often ARE. I mean that might be part of the syndrome I know a bit of what I speak here. A friend one time told me I was ‘self absorbed’ and my first reaction was not at all I am interested in all kinds of things but later I realized she was right. I was too self absorbed to notice that I was self absorbed lol…………….
cool, holmes…I’ve never been skinny. watching a flick with Daniel Craig; shit How I wanted to look like that when I had fantasies about wanting to be a chick magnet. Now when the call me dear and hon, its as a prefix for , ” poor old thing..” haaa As sad an awakening as coming to grips with the fact that that BIG Yellow, “S” on my forehead is not for SUPER…
> ha, I was interviewed for the monthly magazine of the Open University, for studying psychology as a blind student in her fifties.
> I just reread the version they made of it, a shortened version of my answer to their questions, but was very glad to see they left in my mentioning of Primal Therapy and its usefullness as one of the causes to raise my interest in studying again.
>
> a small thing maybe, but on the other hand not so small, as this is my first achivement to publish something about Primal Therapy in the actual ‘professional’ or ‘future professionals’ field of psychology.
> not only the name of Primal was nentioned, but also that I went to Los Angeles for it for years, and that it is a deep exploration of repressed and unprocesssed emotions dating as well from a more recent past as from childhood.
> I added over the years my interest and involvment kept growing, leading to my decision to pick up the study at the Open University.
> ha, and they asked for a digital picture, so I gave them the only digital picture I have on my laptop, me and my former cat, smiley.
>
> apart from that it is about working with the screenreader and having to do it all mostly by myself as it is such specialized software, and about the good assistance I got nevertheless from my mentor and specially from my statistics teacher.
> but hey, maybe some people will look up “Primal Therapy’.
> I said much more about it and about Janov and Barry and Gretchen but well, they left out that bit. but still, hey, I feel pleased about it!
> M
Margaret, you speak of your visual blindness,in this post. Are you life long blind ? A visually blind friend,who was a stringed instruments musician, had a stock answer that tickled him when asked if he had been blind since birth. He answered,” To the best of my memory.” He used to have a penchant for driving his ,” smash up derby car,” in his field. Asked about that he’d reply, that he had intended to become a race car driver, that the smash up designation was the result of a natural progression, being unable to see where he was going.
Do you watch the TV show, Battle Creek. I get the impression that the creator may be referencing Primal. I nearly jagged in watching it, The conflict interaction between some of the characters is so typical of 7 – 9 year olds. Rowan Atkinson says his , ” Mr Bean, ” character is a nasty 9 year old and that he dislikes him and is amazed he is liked by viewers.
David – I will write down here because if I reply directly the comment gets too ‘skinny’.We are getting our wires crossed just a little bit I mean in relation to the Back Motel story. So let me try to clear it up.
You said “John” said PT was a ‘con’ and ‘crap’ but that Barry said he respected “John” because he thinks for himself, says what he believes etc etc. My point was and is I don’t think I even ‘went that far’ or said things like that but it is true I have been a ‘critic’ of PT quite a lot here. I know also you did not say or imply that I ever said it was ‘crap’ but I was simply saying how come I never got those kinds of kudos from Barry or actually anyone else.. Sounds lame maybe wanting kudos but anyway I want to be clear and I also know you didn’t say that I said it was ‘crap’ So hopefully that puts that to bed.
About Art Janov you said about me
“when you write about Dr. Janov your hate for the guy is palpable, I can taste it.”
Umm…………….I would not put it like that. I have a great sense of disappointment in him I think he tripped over something with enormous potential but sadly I feel it has remained mostly as potential. I am sure people here will quickly say my ‘disappointment’ is with myself, yes partly I have to agree but I hate that kind of primal ‘cheap shot’ where any criticism is so quickly turned back of the critic (Cult Alert!!)
That has been the practice from the beginning all the way to now………………and it has not served PT very well.
Patrick, I agree with what David wrote about your apparent hate for Janov. I am astounded by what you write here. It’s probably pointless to remind you, but in many posts over the time I’ve been here you’ve crapped repeatedly all over Janov, the therapy, the therapists and the members here. You’ve said that the therapy and therapists are a scam as well as many other hateful things. It has seemed to me that you strive to say the most vicious, hurtful things possible on this blog. Then it seems like you want to pretend nothing happened. Phil
Patrick, With David, for some reason, you want to say you are disappointed with Janov. That you don’t really hate him. So tell me then, and no “cult alert” b.s., what accounts for all the bile you release here? Phil
Oh for fucks sake Phil stop all this ‘precious’ nonsense. You call it ‘bile’ to me it’s something else. I have a purpose even if only for myself that goes beyond bile. Phil the little I know of you you seem a very ‘conventional’ thinker. Maybe that ‘works’ for you but it does not work for me at all
Oh, good. I did not want to have created a misunderstanding with you, Patrick.. Actually I reread your post, understood you were not even thinking I was accusing you. I slapped myself; why didn’t I read it fully instead of glancing and reacting. It also alluded me that you were making that comparison that you are never shown respect for speaking your mind. I respect that and prefer it in my interactions, even if it doesn’t always feel good. I like to know where I stand and have the opportunity to respond how I choose.
I wish the Institute and the Primal Center would explain why they have kept the practice of the,” real,” Primal Therapy to themselves. I am sure these highly intelligent minds have thought about this.
I can totally understand the quality control;argument. It is valid. I realize they were in the initial understanding and development phase. But at some point clutching control became flawed reasoning.
Frgive me for making the ugly comparison, but if MacDonalds had limited itself to one restaurant, patented all of their products and issued blatant public warnings that only their MacStuff was the one and only, and, the only safe, real mac coy; and to stay clear from all dangerous counterfeiters, mock burger makers, MacDonalds would have failed.
What if Dr, Christian Bernard had kept his heart surgery techniques to himself advising the world that only his personally supervised surgery was the real/competent product ??
In the case of MacDonalds world health would be better served if they had failed… IMMHFO
Arthur, IMMHO, should have traveled the world sharing certified peer reviewed patient testimonials and encouraging therqpist to go for it, offering to assist opening Primal Therapist Training Centers.
In the beginning, Dr. Janov writes, time and again, he knew nothing about what they were doing.. And the patients developed the therapy. I am not competent to say but it is possible the theory and the treatment techniques continue to evolve.
What happens to the availability of the real Primal Therapy beyond the longstanding professional devotees, Arthur, France, Vivian, Barry, Gretchen.
That’s my concern and the gripe I have, it is bloody selfish, criminal, if their eventual passing kills Primal Therapy.
David: I can’t be absolutely certain, but I did read somewhere why Art didn’t want anyone practicing Primal Therapy from merely reading his book/s. The reason if I remember rightly, was that pushing patients into feelings that they were not ready to feel was potentially dangerous, in that it could cause major confusion … without any resolution. I gather he also felt if such incidents were to happen; it would give the whole concept a bad name. Ironically, that may actually have precipitated very thing he wanted to avoid.
This was a factor that also caused me some concern and I spent a great deal of time wondering (yeah! head tripping) how to fix this very paradox (delemma if you like). I came up with the idea for a do-it-yourself procedure, and wrote a book to that effect.
I am pretty certain that both Art and people at his Center along with Barry and Gretchen at the Institute are fully aware of this ‘paradox’ (my phrasing).
I personally feel certain (should we humans NOT blow up all life on the planet within the next 100 years) that there will be a re-read of Primal Theory and that from that will ensue the practice of a psychological therapy that will help most.
As I see it (just me apparently), the problem is moving from the theory, to a practice, which entails a RE-LIVING of ones own feelings in early childhood and/or womb life. I don’t see the proclivity to “re-live” ones past as something new. I feel many did so in the past … BUT they mis-interpreted their experience and related it to what in their conscious mind, was aware of (for the most part, a religious/spiritual experiences) then promoted just that. Of hand I see Saul of Taurus, Thomas of Aquino, Buddha, et al. being cases in point.
As patients and ex patient we each of us have our own feelings and reasoning about this very “paradox” (as I wish to call it). Of course I risk in stating this, to be considered lecturing (and maybe in a sense I am), but what is so terrible about lecturing. There are many that make a handsome living out of it. It’s not a dirty word … yet. Just that many don’t like it, for reasons only they know.
Thank you Jack. I value your thoughts. And thank you so much for your book. The spinal cord injury I am healing from prevents me from sitting or holding any same body position for long periods, so my reading has been slow. But I think you are bang on. Primalling on my own I believe hanging on to a scene too long or crying away feelings or ranting them away was a defense a therapist would have interrupted.
I have been reading Dr Janov, and Primalling in some form since 1972
I have read all of those explanations.from Dr. Janov. And while they are valid I think there came a point they defeated the spread of Primal Therapy to have taken its place as the therapy of first choice. So from that point of view they don’t hold water. Arthur should have embarked on making Primal , ” IMPRINTED,” on the world’s mind. People remember the names Freud, Jung, et al, but only myself and a tiny group of post primal friends here in my Province have ever heard of Arthur Janov and Primal Therapy.
When new Social Workers, Psychologists, Psychotherapists came on staff or joined the local Mental Health Clinic, i would endeavor to sneak Primal into the discussion. None had ever heard of Primal and it sounded too whacky to interest them to inquire further. A couple borrowed from my, “Primal,” library. It ended there. They had been brainwashed, ” head dedicated.”
There was a time when a group of us met at the Psych Dep’t at St Anne’s Universitè every week to discuss Primal therapy and helping clinical understanding of patients in primal terms . The prof , a close primal friend, had gone to Montreal and then New York to do his own therapy. He taught a graded course on, ” Dr Arthur Janov ,Primal Therapy, Theory and Practice.”
A French speaking college, students came from all over the French speaking world.
dave
> David,
> no, I have seen normally until the age of 40.
> in my first year of therapy I could still see well, but then in the following year got tbc in the brain which as a meningitis caused too much pressure for too long on the optical nerves.
> result after three months of hospital was loss of about 95 percent of sight and loss of the hearing of my left ear.
> don’t feel like going into more medical details on this blog.
>
> it is a huge loss to cope with, but I try to make the best of my life nevertheless.
> I think it helped me in my therapy actually as I was forced continuously to ‘look at myself’, no escape but to be confronted with my inner world all the time..
> only on the second visit after losing most of my sight did the feelings about it break through, in their own howling way.
>
> now i still miss basic things, looking at beautiful things like landscapes but also just absorbing all kinds of visual atmospheres of well, hidden corners and back alleys for example, every spot has its very own ‘feeling’, and I was a very visual person, drawing all the time for example.
> now turned to singing and dancing for the last decade, and studying for the last couple of years.
> M
Ah FUCK !!!!, Margaret; You can’t tell but I have tears for you. It’s meaningless to say it, not even close to intelligent, but UNFAIR !!! Margaret, UNFAIR !!! Can’t imagine how you had the ability , the desire , to search out any , ” Old stuff.”
I admire your resilience. I’d wallow in the corner and feel sorry myself to death.
>
> David,
> well,I think we all can do more than we suspect when there is little choice..
> I know I am a fighter, that is true, to some extend, as I have kept going to the Institute, despite it being so much more scary as everything becomes a problem, finding my way, buying food, socializing, name it, even having fun is not easy..
> but well, you have to go with the cards you get,and I had led a life full of risks before so carry part of the blame.
> of course that lifestyle was again partly due to my old pain and search for relief, and partly to the ’70’s and their adventurous freaky lifestyle, which has also had is up sides with some unbelievable adventures, crazy as some of them were, there was also a lot of beauty there.
>
> you have faced your own hardnesses as well, I can’t begin to imagine how it must be to lose a 4 year old daughter, and then to have to go on in a world that must suddenly have lost a lot of its appeal.
> I htink that is the kind of sadness you always keep with you, that can only become part of you.
>
> that is one useful , one of the many useful things Barry said to me: when I was talking about my struggle to get rid of my sadness, he asked me why I felt I needed to get rid of it, as it formed a part of me.
> that helped me a lot, to come to terms with the idea almost as if it is something to be ashamed about, something that should be hidden or disguised.
>
> of course sometimes that is the best option, some occasions demand you to function regardless of what the feeling is inside, but between friends it should be an acceptable feeling, to be sad.
> that is why retreats are such a blessing, to be able to explore how it is, finally to feel safe to let it all come to the surface and express it, to just be able to be who you are and explore and experience it.
>
> the last few days am feeling how a new ‘wave’ of doom and gloom is coming up, will have to make my way through it, fear, sadness, hopelessness, loneliness, all there..
>
> luckily my dreams do a lot of work for me, processing a lot of fear, often sadness, and sometimes treating me with fabulous visual starry skies and landscapes, gorgeous buildings and even cloths and shopping malls and displays of pastries and icecream, smiley.
>
> not to forget a fine and varied collection of dream lovers, haha!
> and of course a lot of cats too in my dreams, and horses.
> but actually in my daily life feel somewhat depressed and partly paralised with fear and gloom momentarily.
> a bunch of setbacks together and a load of sadness to process.
> have lost my husband in ’90, we were drug users on and off, but we also had some very nice years, actually the best of my life, just a couple of them, living a simple life with two dogs and some stray cats at a Spanish coast.
>
> strange but fascinating world, this world..
>
> kindness and generosity are values I higly esteem, don’t know why I say this, simply because it feels it matters a lot to me I guess.
> don’t know why I feel teary right now.
> m
A know a 47 year old man, who I coached in baseball, who contracted bacterial meningitis when he was 14 and is paralyzed. He tells me I am the only one he talks to about his ongoing dreams of being ambulatory. He says it makes anyone else too uncomfortable. He says I am the only one who showed tears and anger over his injuries, didn’t act stoic or signal that he should , ” suck it up.” He says that my confiding in him that if it had happened to me my first wheel chair outing would have been over his cliff into the ocean, may well have prevented him from dong just that. He felt it and then didn’t have to act it out.
We are lucky to have had the opportunity to learn about feelings and our right to them. That’s why Primal is the ultimate gift to me. I lament I will never achieve the level of recovery from neurosis I would like. But I am fortunate for what I have acquired. I can hurt, feel lonely, get pissed off, but I KNOW there’s nothing wrong WITH ME, I’m suffering for what was done to me, and I’m okay.
and, oh, you speak of dreams; Margaret; I rarely remember dreams but my body pillow is terrified of me…hah
I demand that this blog also be a pace for silliness, fraught with our ridiculous parts. I have an elderly e pal, a retired Methodist minister who sends me delightful smutty jokes and cartoons; she is 81. Her lament is having forgone that hillarious part of herself to maintain an image.
David: I agree that this blog might serve a great therapeutic service if the was more silliness. Isn’t that the way we were all meant to be? I remember being told so many times that I was silly and idiotic and stupid when I was a kid and it never occurred to me that it was normal to be that way.
Out there, in the world at large, we are all pretending to be so fucking sensible, intelligent, good and righteous. but looking around, I feel I am the only one that is that way.
As my granny once said to me once, ” The’re aw a bit peculiar … except me and thee … and tha can be a bit funny ut times”. “What!! me granny”, I replied. “Ay, thee”. It didn’t bother me, if I remember rightly cus I knew she really loved me … but it wasn’t until I started attending retreats that I saw she was absolutely right. So in order to become the real me, which I gathered was the purpose of this therapy, I started to be silly and stupid and idiotic. Wow! what a thrill it all was. Now I realized I had gotten a handle on what Art was talking about when he wrote that it was all about becoming the REAL person I am,
Isn’t that the paradox? I think that I am so fucking righteous. and that it everyone else that is so ‘fucked up’
For what time I’ve got left, I’m convinced that all I need to be is that fucked-up person that I was forever hearing that I was. Now I beginning to believe it.
Patrick, whar ‘r’ ye ? y’alright, sir ???
This doesn’t come up to a Mike story. Too short on length and the funny..
After Frank bought the ” Cab -over,” moving truck, we were barely on the 405 headed North I think. Frank had gassed up and had the guy check the engine oil, and maybe top it up. Anyhow, we’re behind a semi hauling a tandem load of large medium crush rock. A couple of vehicles ahead a Jeep Grand Cherokee did what they are best known for, spontaneously going into a lateral roll over. Buddy hauling the crush rock puts on the binders, maybe spilling some of his load,??? Frank brakes, and suddenly we’re looking at the pavement; me laying against the dash; no seat belts in the old truck. Buddy at the garage had forgotten to latch the cab locks after checking the fluids….. I may have learned it wasn’t smart to laugh out loud at everything by then….
I remember another time at that crazy intersection, somewhere along Olympic maybe. It was like a spoked wheel, there were so many converging lanes that intersected. A woman came through. on a red, driving a Honda coupe, and our truck drove right over the boot on her car. I was fucking freaked out. Out of the truck to check on her. Frank was super cool,”Fucking stupid cow,” may closely approximate his response. I was horrified. In Canada if someone runs over me, I say sorry I made you run me over mate. If I run over someone, I say super, super, super sorry, I should have. known you were going to fall out of that tree in front of me. MY BAD… well we’re almost that bad, by myth anyhow.
Why is a myth referring to a rural tale still called an urban myth ??
David – taking a break………………..it does not feel good being ‘poked’ all the time…………….and I WILL be maybe even for this………………….hope he puts his ‘poker’ somewhere else…………………….but the ONLY way for me to avoid being ‘stabbed’ is to keep away………………..maybe ANOTHER reason I disagree with vaccines………………..I don’t like being poked/stabbed………………as a child/infant being poked/stabbed is no ‘sport’ even if it has become so for certain switched off members of the primal ‘upper class’ the one who are ‘allowed’ head trips…………….also another reason I don’t like Margaret stabbing and poking her defenseless little kitty cats………………………………..
I wonder if it occurred to you that most people don’t like a lot of things that you have had the habit of doing on this blog? I suppose it’s ok for you to ‘blow off’ at other’s, but oh no! “don’t do things to me that I don’t like” . Perhaps you aren’t even aware that it is all “Cause and Effect”. How dumb can that be?. Oh I forgot you love to do ‘your’ thing and then assume that others will be “EVER SO FORGIVING” … and that is what you’ve assumed Primal Therapy is all about.
You use any principle that comes to mind to JUSTIFY your action … but little realize that you cause the ensuing effects. Now you state you don’t like it, but even justify it all through being JABBED and connect that to vaccination. Is that way less cruel than your brother breeding “defenseless’ sheep to be slaughtered … against their will Try looking into yourself; being just a little more introspective. You might find it causes you a little less misery.
And yes I have no doubt I will be asked to ‘practice what I preach’ or even being at your throat. Incidentally no-one banned “head tripping”, but it handy when I know that’s what’s I’m doing.
However, I’m REAL happy to see you back. More fun 🙂 . Not about to put my poker down … yet
my screen is a bit blurry, ” you did write, ” p o k er,” right. I am glad to hear how that makes you feel.. I am sincere, and no primal pun intended. I have learned never to 2nd guess. Yeah it’s gotta be shit to hear that you’re hated and will never reach a truce. It would be easier if you didn’t care. Or, through my lens of course. I know how too much of such messages make me feel.
You’ve been decent to me.
>
> the last couple of days I felt kind of down, but also with a strong flavour of fear. so ‘gloom and doom’, let’s say, covers it quite well.
> at night really freaky scary nightmares about being attacked, almost killed, persecuted, having to fight back, or hide, run, and try to protect cat and on one occasion a little girl as well..
>
> all socializing feels threatening, more than it already does to me usually in that state..
>
> but this morning picked up the statistics once more, and they made me feel after an hour of two I was gradually regaining some control..
>
> then my brother came by and we sorted out some stuff that needed to be done on my place, went to a store to look at materials and managed to make a decision.
>
> told him too I’d rather stay home than go along to our mom, had called her already and told her about my cold. I had spoken to her cleaning lady, and was very reassured she told me she would keep coming weekly to my mom, despite my mom telling her it was not necessary and she could come every fourtnight or even every month..
>
> she deals with that ever so nicely, just nods and agrees with our mom, and instead of saying ‘I’llo do this next week’, she says ‘I’ll do this the next time’.
>
> she gives my mom a call the evening before she goes there, (weekly!), and my mom does not know anymore it is only a week ago..
>
> this is for me and my brother a big reassurance, and we are very grateful the cleaning lady is so nice and kinkly flexible.
>
> our mom can use that help really well, as her memory fails more and more, in the evening she does not know anymore what she has done during the day, even if it was being out all day with her boyfriend.
>
> of course she finds that distressing and sad and scary..
>
> but she copes quite well lately, and we are happy we manage to find ways to allow her to stay in the house she lived in for almost 55 years now.
>
>
> then I managed too to get through to my own social assistance and get them to send me a one time thorough cleaning team, two persons for an entire morning, next week.
> I will start gathering stuff I should get rid of now, old software wrappings you need to keep for the first couple of years, but they end up piling up and gathering dust, for example.
>
> so a ‘clean hurricane’ will go through the appartment and they are also warned everything should be put back exactly on the same spot again, otherwise I have to search and search if I want to find somehting not being able to spot it visually..
>
> so well, getting things in action makes me feel better already, a bit anyway, though of course I know the old feelings of fear keep lurking and won’t go away untill I have faced the demons..
>
> fear is such a hard feeling to process, it is so paralising and compelling me to want to stay home in my ‘relatively’ safe shell which of course is not good if it goes on for too long.
>
> but still, I think I manage to find a balance more or less, to keep my life on the move..with a little help from my friends..
> and family..
> M
I know about paralysing fear and wanting to stay home. I fear that when I retire, I’ll want to stay home all the time and will have to be constantly battling my fear and making myself get out or I won’t have much of a life. Already, since being alone and having to battle my insecurities alone, my life is diminished.
Last weekend was a long weekend, Monday being a holiday here. I cried a lot about how alone I am. Thank goodness I did get out and go with some acquaintances to a dinner fundraiser for Nepal, and the next evening went to dinner with 25 people from a singles group…followed by my brief presence at a dance with 5 of them. An acquaintance and I had planned to see the movie Ex Machina on Sunday but she had to change the plan to Monday. Then on Monday she was wrestling a cold, so I went to the movie alone, to an almost empty theatre.
I’m glad I was able to make myself get out and spend time with these casual acquaintances, because outside of them I was alone all long weekend. All the long weekend I cried a lot about my aloneness in the present and more importantly aloneness that pervades my life deep into my past when because there was no one there I unconsciously gave up hope and imprinted onto the behaviour track that cursed me to be always alone. It’s very hard to change that track and be confronted with the truth of how alone I was and why.
I just read an interesting magazine article by two authors of a new book on meditation and mindfulness. Here are some excerpts that capture the essence of the article.
“Meditation and mindfulness have a dark side that should not be ignored, say psychologist Miquel Farias and Catherine Wikholm” in their new book The Buddha Pill: Can meditation change you?”
“Twitching, trembling, panic, disorientation, hallucinations, terror, depression, mania and psychotic breakdown – these are some of the reported effects of meditation.”
“But happiness and de-stressing were not what meditation techniques, with their Buddhist and Hindu roots, were originally developed for. The purpose of meditation was much more radical: to challenge and rupture the idea of who you are, shaking one’s sense of self to the core so you realise there is “nothing there” (Buddhism) or no real differentiation between you and the rest of the universe (Hinduism). So perhaps it is not so surprising that these practices have downsides.”
“…we realised that media report were heavily biased: findings of moderate positive effects were inflated, whereas non-significant and negative findings went unreported.”
“Another study found that practising mindfulness for 20 minutes a day resulted in higher levels of biological stress, as measured by the hormone cortisol (despite lower reported levels of subjective stress) than for those in the non-meditation group.”
“Torkel Brekke of the University of Oslo in Norway, who edited a book on Buddhism and violence, describes Buddhist texts that explain how individuals who have become enlightened through meditative practice may act amorally if their actions are undertaken in a detached state of mind. Rather than being exceptional, the association between meditation and detached killing became the norm in Japan during the second world war. The historian and Zen priest Brian Victoria writes how the training of Japanese soldiers included the use of meditation techniques to ensure that the soldier lost his sense of self and “became” the very order he received.”
“Meditating can produce powerful effects on the mind, but not all of these are beneficial or peace-generating.”
“Despite popular opinion, meditation is not a panacea. The truth is that most of us, including scientists, have beliefs about meditation that are often naive, and have turned a blind eye to its potential dark side. We need to change this.”
Larry – yes that is an interesting article.I think the main point is correct, that a lot of the practices have been sort of bastardized in the West nowadays. Like ‘mindfulness’ though in theory makes sense and I would even say I ‘practice’ it here and there it apparently has become a kind of ‘program’ in Silicon Valley. Like at Googe you get mandatory breaks to practice ‘mindfulness’. Also like the Japanese army these companies are promoting this for THEIR benefit…………….more focused and rested employees hence more ‘productivity’ they hope………………..
I would be a bit show in dismissing it all though…………………..and the kinds of criticisms here of meditation, well OTHER criticisms could be made of ‘primal’ like regardless how how wonderful the ‘theory’ is and sounds the actual ‘practice’ is often quite something else…………..
I see meditation and mindfulness as a defense which serves to try to keep your thoughts on a preferred track and away from disturbing feelings and reality. I also see it as similar to a drug the purpose of which is to deal with symptoms. Like any defense or drug I feel meditation has its use, but the ideal is to a become a whole, healthy, feeling human being no longer needing the defense or drug.
Larry – there is some truth in what you say. But the exact same thing could and should be said about primal…………………” keep your thoughts on a preferred track” even it is ‘painful’ it is for some reason ‘preferred’……………I have done this a lot a Catholic upbringing led me to ‘pain’ and ‘suffering’ as a way out or a solution to life’s problems………………turns out not to be so true after all. I don’t care for this wholesale putting down of New Age type things………………..Janov did that a lot still does yet his solution seems not to have worked any better for the most part. Often I pick up some New Age type magazine just at random it seems often to have more to say to me than primal…………………that kind of primal exclusivity just seems really unhelpful and the ‘results’ seem to match that situation. “Results” to me are important including for Margaret and her cat. Whatever her ‘intentions’ what are the ‘results. Her blast at me below makes me feel quite unmoved – I feel SHE needs to go back to the drawing board.
“Larry – there is some truth in what you say. But the exact same thing could and should be said about primal…………………”
What’s the “could and should” you are referring to and by what theory of yours???? Geeze !!!! do you think all this up while standing upright?????
If you are able (which I somewhat doubt) write us a little thesis about what you feel went WRONG” with the practice of Primal Therapy. It’s one thing to say “it went way off track”, but yet another to give your reasoning as to how and/or why.
The only thing, I feel, is driving your thinking is that since you FAILED to get it. It’s not credible. How could some great thinker, like yourself, be so utterly ’round the bend???’
Tell us once and for all; what went wrong with the PRACTICE of Primal Therapy. That could …. in the annals of Gretchen, Barry B and Arthur Janov be some great piece of enlightenment … even perhaps help the rest of us ‘conventional thinkers’ to put our minds to rest. 🙂
I MIGHT one day try to write all this down……………….for sure there is a good story there though I am not sure I am the one to tell it. I am limited, lazy and easily distracted but certain thing I am fairly sure of…………….but it is a big story and involves many disciplines if you want to get serious about it. But my very short version for now is primal was a brilliant stab in the dark but it didn’t go so well from there. Here I don’t think is the right place because there is a lot of ‘piling on’ people’s own insecurities. The idea of FAILURE scares people me too………………but I have had to face it………….I failed and I hold myself forward as an example of mostly failure on a mass level with primal…………….failure is the coin of the realm but people are busy NOT feeling that……………since I faced that I ‘failed’ in conventional primal terms I find myself getting better and seeing it in a new way…………………but you will have to wait……………..
It feels kind of pointless to react to you Patrick because your manner of thinking is more random and defensive rather than leading anywhere.
Of course the whole point of primal therapy is to help a person to to think about and understand and see how they defend against their pain, to ultimately open up to their pain and feel it. That’s what most of us on this blog try to achieve. If you don’t want to that’s fine, but if your are too afraid to let go of your defenses, if you consistently refuse to acknowledge or even look at them, if you’ve never acted in ways that would allow your defenses to crumble and never allowed yourself to experience resolution through the therapeutic process, then you’ve never experienced the therapy. By criticising primal therapy when you’ve never allowed yourself to experience it and understand it, you are just defending against actually doing it. That’s OK. You can defend all you need to, but most of us on this blog are on a very different path.
Why you are on this blog is a mystery to me, and all I can think is that you are looking for a way to get emotional resolution without feeling your pain. You won’t find that here. The other reason I think you come here is because it’s the only place you can discharge some of your anger and frustration about your life, which you blame the therapy for, and we are the only ones who listen to you.
Larry: Interesting. I must say I have always had some doubts about certain forms of meditation especial when Transcendental Meditation (TM) was all the rage.
What I find interesting about the article is that psychologists are finally looking deeper and beyond the naive idealistic notion that meditation is the path to peace and enlightenment, that in fact it detracts a person from dealing with their reality and worse can have negative consequences or side effects, just like any defense or drug.
I have found that using a kind of meditative state can work to access painful feelings.This method seems to lead to skipping later childhood feelings in favor of early ones, so I don’t do that anymore. Better to be talking to someone about what’s going on or even by myself rather than the meditative technique.Maybe not the kind of meditation they are talking about in the article.Phil Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 16:12:45 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
What you experienced with meditation doesn’t appear to be surprising, Phil. Here is more from the article:
“Why would meditation make you feel more stressed? There are various reasons. Trying to focus your awareness on what you are feeling and thinking can be a demanding cognitive exercise. Another reason that is less well known is that when you meditate “the scum rises to the surface”. These are the words of Swami Ambikananda Saraswati, a charismatic meditation teacher and translator of Hindu sacred texts who we interviewed for our book. She confided that most meditation teachers know about this, but don’t like to discuss the intrusive thoughts and feelings–such as sexual, sad, fearful or violent ones–that may arise rather abruptly when you meditate.”
Meditation employed to get me out of my head, I concluded was like allowing the feeling not thought, to dominate; consistent with Primal Therapy theory as I understand that aspect.. Interestingly I observed people with no defenses, the psychotic, the addict ,respond the most dramatically when their external crutches were removed. I’m not advocating that. I have no advice on how to do Primal. But I’ll never be deterred from believing it’s the one therapy that has the potential to heal neurosis.
I agreed to sit in on a Zen Psychotherapy group last fall. It was productive for me because it was so fucked up, all the mystical religiosity, that it brought up old rage and anger, to let loose when a safe distance away from those poor sad folks, being coached to avoid , ” reharming,” themselves by not feeling, rather giving it up to their gods, their dead, their pets, their plants, waiting on divine intervention to carry their load. People in deadly pain reassuring themselves and each other they were making progress.
Even feeling I am failing is better than than for me.
I’d run very fast in the other direction from any opinion held by any of the conventional head doctors. If emptying my mind of intentional thinking is meditation I work on that. Following the breath for me reduces my brain clutter to one none thing.
I’ve noticed Deepak Chopra, the Dalai Lama , the Maharishi Mahem Yogi, and a few Yogi’s I’ve seen on TV seem like uptight, twitchy dudes…. So there’s probably something in that. Suppose it might be an ad to flog anti depressants ?? lol
It was just me, being me, Maggie. Oh, may I call you, Maggie ??. I wrote it for my colicky middle babe; who is certain there never one created just for her. I rocked her for hours every night until she was 7 months old. Her mom couldn’t abide her distress.Caught in the middle, a precocious 3yr older brother and a 3 year younger sister living with a death sentence. She always felt she was the recipient of left overs. I know now she hated that position. She was also angry with me because my great love was felt as me keeping her from her mother.. How blind of me, she wanted her mother not me.
Even though I reserve my right to feel, adult arms around me have been very healing some times.
I guess I always want to be ‘objectionable’ which leads to ‘pokes’ so in that sense I bring it all on myself. Anyway the news is full of this gay marriage referendum in Ireland and of course mostly self congratulatory commentary all around. The Irish are ‘praised’ for being so forward looking the bad old days of the Catholic Church just a memory welcome to a brave new world of ‘equality’ and tolerance………………….that maybe but I can’t help seeing it in the true sense of more evidence of de-evolution. The human race is de-evolving not evolving much anymore.
Fish are being replaced by jelly fish, men and women are being replaced by unisex’ that are all the same. Also I was thinking about this whole idea of ‘progress’ in primal terms very often an ‘idea’ contains it’s opposite, so like in my case I might act ‘important’ because I feel UN-important maybe we have an idea or myth of ‘progress’ because we know deep down we are going backwards (de-evolving). We ‘invented’ progress as a notion because deep down we KNEW we are and are doing the opposite.
I wonder even if the loads of poisons, vaccines etc that children are exposed to leads to ‘unisex’.I have a feeling it might be a big factor.
I wonder what kind of ‘poke’ this will get though I should not provoke him though it does not take much…………..a hyper active with no hobbies comes out of the woodwork with even the SLIGHTEST breeze……………..
Babies have been born in North America for some years now with facial and body hair and adult genitalia,and breasts. It has been traced to growth hormone, beta agonists, and genetic manipulation in poultry production that grows a 27 day old chick to mature market chicken. Prior to 1991 all poultry that failed tolerances testing were sold to countries that had no standards. These birth anomalies were first documented in Guatemala, the number 1 recipient of our toxic chicken, Now we eat it at home, too.. These births in Canada are concentrated in areas with high Asian populations, with higher chicken consumption rates.
Our bloody christian business ethic in motion…
> Patrick,
> you are such a hypocrit to pretend you feel concerned about the kitten!
> all you want is to control and dominate, and make personal attacks to people who don’t bend to your bullying.
> your apologies clearly meant nothing at all, I wish you’d take off for once and for all, you have lost all credit with me definitely now.
> you are not worth this reply even, as you never really listen anyway, but I want to get this off my chest, your arrogance and mean craziness pisses me off big time, I have had it with you, and I don’t buy your victim role at all.
> poor sensitive concernd Patrick, ha, Jack is so very right about you, and so smart not to want to make up with you.
> I hope he keeps poking forever, who are you to complain anyway, Jack’s pokes are so innocent compared to what you do to anyone disagreeing with you.
> I am not gonna lower myself to say what comes to my mind, fill it in yourself, if you want to be a paria, so be it, I am really done with you now, you are pathetic and very sick
> M
Margaret – that is so pathetic, I mean I told you I would not likely change my opinion of what you did to your cat. And I don’t just mean your ‘cute’ final act I mean all along the constant interference.
Let me ask you a simple question? Do you really think your results were good, did you have in any sense a healthy cat? Try to answer that honestly id you have a healthy cat? If not do you wonder why not? Do you consider a cat with suits and creams and constant it seems ‘shots’ in any sense normal?
Quit your nonsense here try to grow up a bit and look at your actual results…………….before you find another victim. I ‘saw’ you eyeing up that poor cat that poor innocent cat soon to become your victim with all your nonsense. Pull you head out a bit if you can………………
Margaret, I’ve come around in my thinking and now see that Patrick should be “poked” as necessary here on the blog. Somebody has to do it, Jack enjoys it, and is good at it. They know each other for a long time. It’s good for Patrick as I think it constitutes a kind of virtual vaccination process. Phil Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 14:56:33 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Margaret – if you get a new cat you have a choice. Either go down the road you did before with very predictable results. Shoot the cat up and deal with all the nonsense that follow. You will subject the cat and we will have to listen to all about the suits and creams and so on
OR
You can leave the poor thing alone, let it be a cat, let it meet other cats let it be a cat. And see the I am sure much better results. It’s up to you. Now try to stop your ranting, think a bit and let some light into your brain…………………..
I just knew that there was some enlightenment to come from the one that is endeavoring to put Primal Therapy on the right path. Let the Pat be a cat … oooops!!! … did I not get the message right? I should have known better cos my Jim is always telling me that I don’t understand things. If I read enough (whilst having fun with it) who knows; I might even become (what’s the word) er … er …. Ah yep, I remember CURED. 😦 .
I got the book on Martin Luther and am half way through it. Just having some fun and I hope this don’t get me ‘banned’ I am pretty sure not Gretchen is very good on that issue not so for some of her ‘followers’ lol.
Anyway as I sort of expected I seem to be quite like Luther. He grew up on a farm had a pretty tough life, his parents were not so bad but tough no nonsense kind of people. Was beaten up a few times by both of them but again not so bad. He decided to become a monk and his dad did not like that at all. Thought he should get a trade of some kind make money and look after his parents when they were old.
But being a very stubborn boy he insisted on being a monk/priest, had some kind of profound experience that convinced him that was the way to go. He was VERY serious about his religion, had many ‘dark nights of the soul’ and wrestled with a lot of internal demons. But over a period and with some good support kind of reconciled in his own mind what Jesus, the Church and all the rest of it fitted in. He surprisingly found himself in a kind of ‘strong’ place. Not arrogant or a know it all but ‘strong’ he felt kind of grounded for the first time and well ready to be himself.
He didn’t become a ‘critic’ of the Church by design or intention it just sort of gradually happened. He first of all had problems with ‘indulgences’ and it kind of went on from there. He was above all I would say ‘stubborn’ if he got a notion in his head he would just not let go. This applied to him ever becoming a priest and now later in that if he felt something was wrong well he would say it and keep saying it if that is how he really saw things. This somehow connected also to the fact he was a ‘farm boy’ just tough and hard maybe, not polite like a town person a bit crude maybe at times but above all ‘serious’ about his religion and how it was practiced.
OK so I am Luther and I’m thinking about the others here. Who are they what are they like how does Luther see them etc etc.
First off of course Jack…………….Jack is the Pope, Pope Jack. He is older very experienced in his religion. Knows a lot about it can debate it and make his points very subtly and cleverly. But Luther sees him as ‘insincere’ not actually ‘serious’ about his religion unlike Luther. Over time he sees the Pope as a hypocrite he has one rule for himself another one for his ‘flock’. He is corrupt and has many bad personal habits but you would never know it because of his pious and authoritative front. To him his religion is almost a ‘game’ he plays with ideas he can spin things any which way and does. In debate he is not sincere, will take any point just to win. He will be on opposite sides in a flash whatever it takes to come out on top. Luther over time comes to despise this about him, Luther is not so fast with his mind but he is again that word ‘serious’ about his religion he does not respect and go for all this ‘spinning’. Luther tries to resolve things with him but the Pope is a slippery and tricky character and wants nothing more to do with this earnest and serious farm boy. Luther then thinks ‘just as well’ he is a snake in the grass and is better off with no further dealings with him.
Next Larry………………Larry is a good person, he IS sincere about his Faith. He practices it day and night to the point of self flagellation. He ransacks his mind for any ‘sins’ he might have and diligently works on over coming them. He is one of the best monks Luther has ever met. But Luther is now in a different place at one time he was like Larry if maybe not as so ‘believing’ but to Luther now that was in the past time to move on a bit. He feels Larry is ‘stuck’ he seems to repeat his expiation of his sins over and over and over. Luther does not deny he is a good and sincere person but wonders why he has to go over the same things it seems forever and ever. He does not seem happy or have great joy in life actually the opposite he seems almost addicted to pain and painful things. Luther would never deny him as being a good even a very good person but wonders if somehow he could move out of what he seems permanently in.
Next Margaret she is the only woman in their group. Margaret has some terrible traumas and personal difficulties to deal with on a daily basis. Her life is very hard but she is brave and a fighter. Luther has always like her and admired her courage and strength but lately he does not get on so well with her. She seems to him to almost become the ‘crazy person in the tower’. She moans and wails and also lashes out especially at Luther. It’s true he criticizes her he questions some of the stuff she does and says. She seems unable to deal with this, maybe her situation is too tough and hard for her so she lashes out at Luther a lot. He being the stubborn farm boy is not so good at backing down though he does ‘understand’ her and he tries to make allowances and be a good person to her. But she wails and screams at him and at a certain point he thinks I am not going to listen to this anymore he has other stuff to do
The last main one if Guru……………Luther likes him the most. Luther even wonders if he is a Catholic at all. He seems a very ‘free thinker’ but at the same time a believer and L. likes that very much. He also lives far away from Germany or even Rome off somewhere not sure where maybe the Orkney Islands or some such. L. though does not really know him as I say he lives far away and there is something ‘far away’ about him as a person too. Luther wonders where he fits into the Church really he is close to one of the main Madonna’s in the Church and somehow that anchors him to his Faith. He comes and goes disappears somewhere for long periods. But Luther always finds him pretty much agreeable and subtle about their Faith or any other issues too. But Luther also wonders if he ever was to get into some serious problem with the Church where would he be? whose side would he be on? Luther feels instinctively he would not be on his side so though he likes him he would not consider him someone he could count on if some serious trouble brewed.
That’s about it a new guy called David just showed up. Luther is not sure what to make of him. He seems a bit of a swash buckler he rides in on horseback and there is an element of braggadocio about him. He talks a lot and seems to have done a lot and been many places but though Luther finds him fine and ok he wonders if this guy will ‘last’. To really ‘last’ here in this little group it seems to help not to have any children and to live alone. Maybe people with children just have better things to do. There is something very dead end about the little group and is also seems to help ‘last’ if you live on your own. That way there is no interference from what we might call ‘reality’ either the reality of living with someone else of the reality of having children. To really be in the group it seems to help in terms of ‘lasting’ not to have much connection with what most people would call ‘reality’ David seems to have children so I am skeptical if he will ‘last’ not saying that is a bad thing at all – not lasting that is.
Like there are several others on the periphery of the group but mostly as I say they either have children or live with someone. They get tired of the banter it really seems to fit only for people who are kind of loners and maybe we could say ‘weirdos’. And that includes Luther.
Thanks for mentioning me Patrick. My children are 30’s and 40’s. My youngest who died at age 4 after heart surgery would have been 38 today. So I think that has anesthetized me a bit this day. I miss her. I owe the kids a lot. They brought out the best of my humanity.
I’ve lived alone for 13 years, and am not well traveled. And I do run on too much. It saved my life dealing with ma; long and complicated accounts of explanation.
I think I am too insecure and self critical to ever be the braggart. I’d like to be though. It’s been a curse having tried/driven to know, to do so many things and none of them to a point of competence. I was copying my father’s shtik.. Thought he might get to like me.He never noticed.
Me thinketh Luther is more considerate than he putteth out in the realm.
I like your descriptor, ” devolution.” It takes great courage to say it. I respect that.
I wrote you a tale of trucking with Frank. Not as entertaining as your fare.
You made a terrible spelling mistake here It should be L O O S E R not L U T H E R
I can hardly believe the utter conceite you show here. You’re almost as conceited as me.
But it would take a great deal to better a Pope Jack the very first:-
Earth has not anything to flow more fur:
Dull would he be an ass-hole who could piss by
a shite so touchy in it’s bigotry
This shitty now doth like a garment wear
to beautify this mone-ing: silly and bare
Shits travels; doom, theater, and tantrums
Lies open unto the feels and pry
all bright and piffleling in the smoggy eire
Ne’er did some more brutally speak
in its First blustter, bully, shock or hell
Ne’er saw I, ne’er felt a palm to creep
The drivel glideth at it’s own discrete will
Dear Guru the very Primal seems to weep
And all that mighty fart is lie-ing …… still
Silly Waddyworth
Jack,I’m very impressed with your the verses you wrote here.I hope you have more like this which can be collected ina book.Phil Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 15:56:47 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> David,
> I was impressed with your ability to be vulnerable by saying you actually had hoped to be liked most.
>
> of course I have my opinion on who you wanted to be liked by at that moment, but that is just my personal thing of course.
>
> I have asked myself if I hate P but I don’t, he would be the first person I’d hate, and obviously I am not a hater.
> but well, I have little to no respect for him anymore.
> of course like everyone he has all the potential to be a fine person, but he chooses consistently to remain stuck in what Barry once refeered to as his ‘boarish’ behavior.
>
> I hope you won’t find it out the hard way, you sound like a likeable person.
> M
Margaret – to be clear Barry said I was ‘boorish’ not ‘boarish’. I looked up the meaning of ‘boor’ this is what it says
: peasant
: a rude or insensitive person
Luther was a ‘peasant’ also but ok enough about him. Boarish is a different word from ‘boar’ meaning a male pig. So to be clear Barry did not call me a male pig he called me a peasant and a rude and insensitive person
By the way the dictionary says ‘boor’ come from the Dutch ‘boer’ which I suppose was the same word about the Boer War etc.So there is a Dutch connection there.
nothing more soothing than a hot cuppa, ” Dutch Process Cocoa….”
Ya love pickin at scabs, dontcha Patrick ???? i give ya 3 hail , “chocolate chip cookies……..”
cheers
Yeah, a biggy for me. I generally ask for nothing. And then I self questioned, was I being real or was it manipulative ??
I have no way to assess the need behind anyone’s expressions voiced here. I just take things at face value. Sometimes I can slough off, sometimes I bleed.
Just for myself. Listening to some John Phillips Sousa and other marching band music on prarie home companion. takes me back to my navy boot camp days. joined navy to get away from the fact that my best friend had been murdered earlier in the year. should i listen to this song over and overr and lay down in bed and let tears come up? nah, just keep paying bills and other non-essesntials.
Jeez they are going wild with sad songs on prarie home. tenting tonight on the old campground. well is it a sad song? maybe when they read something by walt whitman or some other guy from the civil war battles antitem and all the kids getting killed. ok more luyrics. i guess it is a sad song abouit war. i did not know that.
>
> David,
> well, you can call me Maggie, as you asked me if you could, which is nice.
> I would not allow anyone to do so, or well, can’t make them not do so if they do, but my reaction surely depends on how things get addressed.
>
> just out of curiosity, David, as you seem to know Barry and Gretchen well, have you ever tried having a phone session?
> I found they work amazingly well, although I do so less and less now as the urge gets smaller, they are invvariable very productive and nice.
> that with the occasional e-mail helps to stay connected while not being there in person.
>
> just curious, as you seemed to regret not being able to go there, maybe it would be an option?
>
> what I tend to do if it has been a while, is to send some e-mail first with some of the facts and things and feelings that occurred lately, as it saves time in the session to go to what it triggers.
>
> having a buddy is also a sheer luxury, which I only found out after years of therapy and telling myself I did not need one.
> have had a few and am very happy with my actual one, it is so liberating to be able to talk openly and honestly to someone and to build a trusting relationship.
> it does not always work out well, but it is always an interesting experience.
> so again being curious, do you have a buddy or welll, good friends you can share your stuff with?
> sure hope so of course.
>
> larry, I really enjoyed that long comment you posted recently, it was very to the point.
> M
Thank you. Maggie. Barry was my Primary therapist. My views are formed from observing he and Gretchen in big group, and hearing how fellow therapists felt about them.
My financial situation does not permit the luxury of purchasing sessions of any kind. Briefly, my retirement fund was raped by unscrupulous administrators leaving me with a paltry $1400.00/mo. A spinal cord stress injury last Nov. precludes me from earning at this time.
I had two Primal pals who have rediscovered christianity,” informed normal,” lives with non Primal mates, which does not include Primal practice. Their wives decided primal was hokey. They decided that the marriages were more important than asserting their rights to feeling and pre-marriage lifestyle choices like vegetarianism. I respect that.
I am unable to make such compromises, can respect others’ choices but won’t have them foisted on me. Always a price to pay.
Last night, friends who knew it was my deceased daughter’s birthday today invited me to dinner. While listening with sincere interest to their early life and current daily struggles, I took the leap of sharing that I had some similar experiences..She disappeared to do,”another,” cleaning of their newly acquired adjacent cottage; he shared that he needed to have an early bed time. And, oh, yes, she bought that cottage from beneath my nose, when the owners asked her how ho could get in touch with me. He had intended to offer it to me on a rent to own basis. She told them she knew I was not interested.
My best boyhood pal contacted me today out of the blue. His wife was a really cool Hippie when I knew her. He wants to catch up on the past 60 years. That was nice and brought lots of tears.
david
correction: I meant to write how fellow patients, not fellow therapists, felt/related their experience with Barry and Gretchen. That combination of being straight and genuinely kind touched me. For that reason I say, I’d trust them and Vivian with my life.
ok laying down, trying, pauls face. hung out in garage wrapping newspapers to throw to houses. boot camp hard for a guy like me. alone amongst the strange other boots. ok a few tears. lay down again. maybe the thunderer will keep repeating on youitube for me
wow didnt think i could get that many tears and sobs out at home llistening to music. san diego boot camp. where so many young kids like me had been graduated into death zones/war. i liked the marching when thjey plauyerd the music and i liked eating. not much else
wow. i dont feel any better. coujld it be the millions of dollars of bills and the wife who completely does not understand the millions of dollars of bills? at least she went away to take the kid grocery shopping, or i would not have had the solitude to feel this tiny bit. what a big part of my life those few years in the navy was. a real killer.
RETREAT before it is too late. Those Iraqi soldiers surely know that they don’t want their heads cut off by ISIS. Get out of Nazi Germany, before it is too late. I don’t know why I am saying this, I just am. RETREAT. PULL BACK. TAKE COVER. SHIT’S A COMIN’.
I request, no damn it, I’m a primaler, so, I demand, that both you, Jack, and Patrick, proceed such posts with a warning, ” You are Advised to Read the Following Seated,” when you are about to slay with such incredibly well crafted hilarity. I still don’t know and do not need to know if you and Patrick are realy lay therapists directing us. But if your issues are real, for the sake of the world you two should heal and take your talents on tour. Thank you,, thank you, thank you…
OK I will ‘do’ one more but it is not a M.L. one it is another one a different primal mover. But give me a few days but I promise you one thing it will be all true…………….I am not so talented that I can just make stuff up. Then I would be a novelist which was always a great mystery to me how people do that.
The feeling level of your writing tells me it’s all true. Odd how such intense hilarity can be inoculated with pain, mine. Don’t have a clue what that’s about. Thank you for sharing. When I was at my daughter’s grave yesterday and then later visited places where my kids and I played I felt a mixture of the same things. Maybe it will reveal itself.
David: My computer has a mind of its own and does all sorts of things that I tell it not to do. I should do what my father did with me .. in his failing attempt to train me … and spank it. that might solve the problem.
You Are Advised to Read the Following Seated,
So!!! back to your first comment. I’m not sure if you are telling me what to do, or just pleading cos you’ve got a bit of something or other going on. I welcome it when some decide that they would like to direct how this blog should procede, cos I have not the slightest idea … and I’m knda curious. I do figure (maybe wrongly), that if there were rules about what can or cannot be said/written here that the ones running the joint would put their oar in. I know in the Primal Support Group that there is a moderator to keep it all nice and sweet and loving and safe. BUT, that to me, is not what liife is about. I could well have gotten ‘what this life is about’, all wrong … but so far I not been put in prison for it … again So presumably (this blog) is what I thought it was … a forum for expressing oneself. Sort of getting it off ones chest … as t’were, whilst not acting it out. But who knows, I could be TOTALLY off point.
I have been wonderin lately if there is much fun and laughter in heaven. I have never heard of it, from those that supposedly know what goes on up there, but if there isn’t, then I want to go to the other place, cos I hear it much warmer and I’m not fond of cold, and who knows; there might be more fun. I’m not sure if there is any sex in heaven either. I wonder sometimes why it’s all allowed doen here, but then up there they’re all, seemingly, just lieing arround, piously praising the old man sat on the throne. I would find all that a bit boring.
And I thought it was just me. I spend as much time swearing at and correcting this possessed thing as composing.
I’d never tell you what to do or think. My failure at being humorous again. You, and Patrick, simply slay me when you douse me with your gift for hilarity. Pat’s Mike Lewis stories. You are one of the funniest people I have ever , “heard.”I have been on the floor writhing.
You both are also profound in other entries.
I find myself saying ” Come one guys, get over it,” when battle starts. But it’s none of my business.
I simply am not sure when you, ” poke,” each other, ( a new term for me,) if you are always serious. If it is that’s for you guys to work out, even if that means not forgiving. I do have this thing, more pronounced since my 4 year old’s death, that I wish everyone could just be okay with each other. I’ve decided that I quite like both of you.
I may have gotten it all wrong but I thought Primal would lead to not not needing to hold on to old resentments. I would never let Charles Manson to go out again, but I no longer am filled with the initial feelings.
If the blog is gloves off therapy I see danger that I could stay on a wrong tangent forever; and wouldn’t that fly in the face of the evolution of therapy that says it is non productive even harmful, to be pushed into feelings. If I could have worked it out with ,”real world rules,” I would never have started Primal. Those real world rules allowed my child abuse to continue..
I pronounced dog and heaven a cruel hoax nearly 60 years ago. So I have no thoughts that go there. I felt enormously empowered when I came out of the christ/god closet and said I did not believe. For years it was my secret. I bet few clergy believe the myth either. Richard Dawkins says the old Brit country clerics were atheists.
If there is a heaven I hope it’s FREE LOVE HIPPIES make the rules, lots of pot and sex….
I really like this one. I heard a wild discussion yesterday; a born again christian wrestling with her biggest worry, where will meat come from in heaven, since there is no death there. It made great fodder for belly laffs.
Hi All
I’ve been reluctant to write as I felt I am not getting something, I am not clear as to what I am feeling. I’ve been “down”. Feel so removed from LA, from a place where I can express my feelings and talk about them, without repercussions. It seems that the only time I feel completely “myself”, when I am in group either at the retreat or in LA. That doesn’t give me much time to enjoy life to the fullest.
For years, no matter what I touch, it goes to shit. Every premise I based an investment on, or deal I get involved in, has been wrong. And it goes way back to early childhood.
Now as I wonder around, I start to remember being so lonely as a kid. When I walked the streets as a 13 year old in Belgium, while we were immigrating, I thought my heart would split and I would die. Lately, I’ve been thinking of death. Imminent death. I’ve done all I can, but I could never make myself happy, at peace, not driven for all the wrong reasons. I’ve started to withdraw somewhat, after all, nothing helps, NOTHING IS IT.
But then I read Arthur Janov’s latest posting on “On feeling lonely again”.
Wow. It blew me away. I’ve been running away from this feeling for years. Forever, I’ve been talking about being “connected”. Lately I’ve been lamenting why some of the old friends do not keep in touch. It’s always up to me to keep the “relationship ” going. You have to ask why has that been so important to me. after all, I don’t “suffer” from loneliness. I have friends on four continents.
But nothing is ever “IT”. It’s hard to believe that in spite of growing up surrounded by family and friends, I missed out on the most basic staple…. touch…..mum looking into my eyes…..dad not fucking with me, competing with me….mum not hearing my wails and not listening to me asking for what I needed back then.
My kids are fine. My grandchild is fine. I am a good step dad, and a really good step grandpa. I can’t do more. I am running out of energy, I want to give up my struggle and die. I am convinced that I will die. No matter how much I try, how much I struggle, I will never get IT.
So I might as well die. Life will go on.
………….
I am sure what i wrote above is not clear, but I can’t clear my head. I want IT.
Tom
Tom: Your comment really touched me, and I for reasons I can’t think of right now, I want to help. But I know I can’t and will not go there.
However, I will tell you my story. Maybe I have already done so.
The lowest point in my adult life was after a break-up of the most passionate love of my life. Co-incidentally it was with the Australian guy I have mentioned to you before. I was so depressed, lost and miserable and run around like a “blue house fly” not knowing where to turn, what to do to make the awfulness go away. I wanted desperately for someone to just listen to me … but after about 2 to 3 minutes anyone I spoke to, then wanted out: and I had to end it there. Nothing worked. My mother rang me during that period, and tried to pacify me … but that didn’t work either. But after my mothers phone call, I began to cry. What I cried about first was about the mess I was in. But later that day I began crying again. I was totally unable to keep the tears back, but at the same timer I was having to work as I had no money. I now began crying at work … quietly, to myself.
I was living with a girl who was a mutual friend of another girl I knew. She recommended that I see a psychology friend of hers, and I spent 15 pounds (more than I could afford) … but that did nothing for me either. I then remember being in her kitchen and I just burst into the most deep crying that I had ever known (in my adult life). Afterwards she remarked that she never knew that two gay guys could be that much in love. She assumed that only a man and a woman could experience that depth of love. Somehow that gave me some confidence. I later went off to see my doctor (who was a personal friend) and on getting into his surgery he said he couldn’t believe that I was so desperate: having known me as a guy he always considered up, bright and fun. He pulled out of his cupboard a bottle of whiskey and drank from the bottle and burst into tears with me, right there in his surgery.
Slowly from there on, I began to have confidence that my crying was not a downer. I must, over that period have cried buckets full of tears. I shortly afterwards went off to Ibiza to be among the hippies and there I read “The Primal Scream” I have known from there-on in- that my tears are my sanity.
In-spite of all the fun I have been having recently on this blog, I have also done quite a bit of crying. There is something imminent in the last few days that I am very sad about. I have not totally resolved it all yet, and don’t, as of now, feel the need to talk about it on the blog, or even with my Jimbo (he hates me crying). I cry for as long as I need to, in bed; on my own; at night. It’s not the sadness for me, but the crying that accompanies the sadness, and for which I know is the totality of my feelings. That’s what works for me.
You brought my truth to the forefront, Tom. What is there to do when what you describe, Tom, is the reality. I gave and give, and give, love, loyalty, be the best friend, and all I get is left overs, complimentary acknowledgement. I’d like to scream, go away, if all you want to give back, all I’m worth is obligatory acknowledgement. But I can’t when I might hurt someone or cut off the hope of getting something. Feeling all of that does not change the reality. Wish I could stop feeling.
Barry once said to me that it is impossible to lose a friend, someone who really loves you, you can’t drive them away. If they ever stop they never were. I suppose I should say that’s how I remember him expressing it.
This arrived in my e box from an Elder I respect, as in Aboriginal Elder, not LDS:
Once you make a friend, a friend never leaves you, even to death. So a real friend is really hard to find.”
–Wallace Black Elk, LAKOTA
Once, an Elder told me he had made a decision to be my friend. He said this friendship wasn’t based on anything I had done; or how I acted; he said the friendship was based on his decision. He decided to be my friend. This friendship has happened like he said. Even if I don’t see him for a long time, or if I get mad at him, he has never changed his decision. This is true friendship.
Tom, a late response to what you wrote. What you talk about sounds so difficult and I’m hearing that it’s continuous. I hope you can get some good relief soon. You deserve a break. Phil
> Dear Tom,
> it hurts reading about your pain. wish I could do more than just listen and hear you, but I can’t.
> my heart goes out to you.
> are you going to the summer retreat?
> I do hope you are going, it sounds like a big one is coming up..
> you have a heavy load on your back, but you are a strong person too so please hang in there.
> in the present you are not alone, ask your grandson, without so many words..
> what dit Art say about feeling lonely that touched you so deeply?
> M
All is very quiet here. Feeling scared like I’ve been deserted. It’s in the bottom of my gut like I’m going to die. Like early days of Elementary school. Like dragging my mom off the beach when she said she was there to drown herself because I didn’t love her. If I loved her I’d be a better boy.
Hi Margaret
Feeling lonely is excruciatingly painful. If it goes on for too long part of you dies. Just go back and look at the documentaries of the old Romanian orphanages. How those kids looked blank already, how they were rocking themselves to give themselves “some comfort”. Every time I watched those pictures I would get tearful and say I feel/felt like that. But I was somewhat removed from it. Now I realise that that’s exactly how I felt. Yes, I can and did feel like an orphan in my parents home. Not my home, their home.
So when the therapists would ask me early on, some 30 years ago, Tom, what do you want? I couldn’t answer nor did I know what I wanted, other than “TO BE TAKEN CARE OF”. Is that so much to ask? After all, you are a therapist, so TAKE CARE OF ME!. NOW!
Do you look at an infant, or a baby just born and ask…..what do you want?
What drives me nuts is that I have an affinity with young kids. I look at them in their pram, smile or pull a face and they start smiling back at me. I don’t know if I wrote about my step grandson, but he had grandparents day in his “school” (kindergarten, as he is only three years old). He insisted that I come. How is that possible? The other day I picked him up from school. On the way home he wanted to stop at the shopping centre to buy some cherries. After checking with my step daughter on the cell phone, I turned around, parked the car and we went upstairs to the fruit shop and bought his cherries. Walking back towards the under ground car park we passed a little merry go round. Idan, his name, looked at me and asked if he can have a ride. I said yes. He then asked for the $2 coin which I gave him. While he was riding, an other little boy walked up to me and asked if he can get on. I said yes. After, his mum told him to thank me. I simply said…..KIDS RULE.
Last Monday, when I put my grandson to bed, he turned to me and asked for me to pat his head and stomach. I nearly cried. I was so happy he could still be so direct and knowing what he wants. He is ten years old in June.
But I missed out on all the above. It hurts. There is a void, a sense of alienation. An emptiness that nothing can fill in the present.
So that’s how it is for me Margaret.
And now at my age, I am scared to make any major decisions, work wise, because I am not sure if I am acting out, or it may just be the right decision. One thing I know is that I will not go into any partnership, with the neurotic hope of being taken care of.
Oh yes, I am going to the summer retreat.
Thank you for your feed back, Jack, Larry and David.
Tom
Wish I had something to give you, Tom; but your story overwhelms me with the want and need in me that I am convinced will never be met. This seems totally out of place, inappropriate, but I remember my father telling a story about attending the last hanging in our county. He said the hangman who knew the convicted man asked if he could get him anything, asking if he’d like a chew of tobacco. He said the accused answered, ” No thanks, t’aint healthy.”
I just posted below, on the wrong page, before reading Tom’s and David’s latest comments. Tom and David I feel I understand you both, better and better.
I sure could use and understanding ear, a reassuring hug right now.
Work is good….the new students working for me are good people nice to be with who make my job as their supervisor easy, last Sunday I much enjoyed an arduous 11 km hike with the Nordic Ski Club in the Nesbitt Forest an hour from here in 30 C heat, I attended my bereavement group meeting last night after several weeks absence and found it easier than ever to talk to people and talk during the meeting…while feeling respected, appreciated, and people attentive to what i have to say……But I feel so empty.
….And I don’t really believe I can change it, nor can anyone. I’ve been crying a lot, for days in a row with the odd break and rest for a day. How was I so lucky to have met my wife? How unusual and profound it was to connect warmly, lovingly to someone? Was being with her a lucky for me one time peak of my life? How cold and callous that it came to a premature end. How empty now. How empty before but I had never understood until I met her and felt for the first time the magic of connection. Now I see the emptiness now, and the emptiness of childhood. No one can make the childhood emptiness go away, I can’t escape it, it’s reality forever.
I cry and sink into the emptiness of my childhood, I’m there seeing it, crying it finally, the unbearable truth that I’m small and helpless I need their love but – they – don’t – can’t – love me – see me..too horrible to contemplate when you are 3…too horrible to understand I will know utter excruciating aloneness..forever. It’s always been my truth. i’m letting myself see it more, feel it more, a truth that has me at a breaking point and after all these decades i can’t run from anymore.
I’m waking up to the horrible aloneness that’s been my albatross draining me of life. I’m waking up and seeing what my childhood was, that is still in me, that made me need therapy to try at some recovery from. I would scream into madness if I let myself see all of it all at once. I feel so empty and alone.
No one can now give me what I needed then, but I wish there was someone right now to see me and hug me warmly. Without it life is trying somehow to have fun while utterly cold empty existence lurks in the shadows, around the corner, a few stealthy steps behind me gathering to pounce.
Hi Tom, Larry, David, Jo, and everyone I relate to what everyone is saying. I’m also a member of this club.I’m not alone in the present, as I have my family. But it doesn’t take much to trigger the feeling that I’m all alonebeing neglected and not seen because that was my reality as a child.This feeling kind of builds up over days to the point where I expressit intensely. This happens once or twice a week.If I am left alone here, if my family goes away for even one day, it can be devastating.I also work with seeing how I shut down as a child because it hurt so much.Then I was unable to connect with people to try to get what I need.I stopped trying. Phil
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 03:29:58 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> David,
> how old were you when that happened with your mom on the beach? what was the situation like that led to this,?
>
> I hear all this pain here, Tom, Larry, David, and it resonates, and at the same time I feel like saying for a reason not completely clear to me, ‘don’t forget to count your blessings too’.
> maybe it is my survival mechanism driving me to want to say this, at some point all that is left is making the best of things, while they are far from perfect, or even not good at all..
>
> but hey, of course it is also very useful to look our pain in the face and I know you guys do really make the best of your lives, so I guess I am talking to myself here, kind of ‘ get up and move’, take care of yourself, do what you need to do, work, take risks, and accept the sadness and even the fear as it comes..
>
> a cleanup team is about to show up here, so I have been up since 5.30 am to get ready for the invasion…
>
> somehwo I feel we are all warriors fighting to make life and if possible bits and pieces of our world better..
> hang in there guys, and please keep writing!
> M
from age 4 – 8, for sure. Or she would hide when I came home from school to check on her. She had lots of reasons fro her behaviour. I was unwanted and terrorized from the beginning by her. She had some good moments with me. Some very sick. Then she would tell me of her abuse and I’d feel sorry for her. That cut me off from my feelings, too.
It would take a novel to describe. The emotional abuse throughout teen years to convince me I was unlikable, unlovable., by anyone. It was a whole package, mom, sibs, harder to catch dad at it but there are a few scenes. Throw in thee needless poverty….
> I have two guys here right now cleaning the appartment, Ahmed and Glenn, they are still in the back, bathroom and kithchen, cleaning walls and windows..
>
> just had a cup of tea with them and some cookies, feels a bit strange to have two young male strangers here fiddling around with my stuff..
>
> have put my bag a bit out of sight, and try to keep myself busy in the meantime, while keeping in touch with them from time to time..
>
> i thought they would take stuff to the containerpark for me as well, had it all ready and almost sorted out, in bags and boxes, just mainly old software and computer wrappings, but they can’t do that today..
>
> well, gonna look at things from the bright side, what is cleaner is cleaner, even if it is not going the way I thought it would, and we seem to get along, a bit awkwardly so as one speaks the language only partially and the other seems to be a bit of a right-winger, haha, a funny combination but luckily they seeem to get along well with each other..
>
> will be glad when they are gone in a few hours, as it does feel like an invasion, which of course I invited, but well, a necessary and useful intrusion into my privacy, luckily not on a regular basis..
>
> they are also gonna give the large terrace a good scrub, and clean the very high front windows..
>
> sigh..
> it is ok though..
> they told me they are used to really bad situations at drunk people’s houses or junkies were they have to go for sanitary reasons, so for them now it is a luxury being here, an easy job..
>
> is difficult though to be able to do some stuff myself while trying to keep out of the way of two guys at a time moving around with buckets and a ladder..
> but well, should not complain, should I, smiley??
> M
>
> it occurred to me what I said before about counting one’s blessing might come across as not respecting people feeling down. of course I do, as I feel down myself a lot of the time, and feelings of pain also easily get triggered.
> on the other hand that feels also reassuring, a sign the connection is open and the process continues.
>
> I relate to all of what is described here, I get torn between the ‘safety’ of being on my own, not much risk for rejection or indifference, and being so lonely the need gets stronger than the fear and makes me go out and socialize ..
>
> every time I manage to do so, specially when it is something niew like meeting a new fellow student, afterwards I feel how it made me stronger, a fear conquered seems to be very constructive, but well, when a new challenge approaches ratio gets overruled by old feeling again and it gets difficult once more to get over the threshold to go out and mix and mingle..
>
> we can all only do our best, face stuff and have as pleasant a life in the meantime I guess.
>
> well, now about the clanup team, they are gone, hurray, the worst cleaners I have ever met!!
> one of them was almost acceptable, but the other one was well, not good at all..
> I think he used a wrong product, a product to remove calcium rests and possible sources of fungus from sanitary devices, sinks, bathtubs etc., and he seems to have used it on the windows and some floors, leaving kind of a toxic smell, so I will have to do at least the floors again with regular neutral soap…
>
> not even half of what I wanted them to do is done, not even a quart really, and things they did are only done halfway..
>
> I am a better cleaner myself, even with pooor eyesight.but hey, the windows are ‘done’ and the walls of the bathroom got ‘cleaned’, and my terrace got scrubbed here and there, mostly in the middle as they did not seem to move much stuff around..
>
> gave it a try, and well, all the stuff I got ready for the containerpark is still here as well, will ask a girlfriend to come by with a car to take it there..
>
> so far for that cleanup team, a one time experience!
> M
>
> I guess, what I said about despite the old pain we feel, we make ourseves a better life in the meantime,if we talk a lot about our pain here, it is because here that is possible, while in other social circles it is better to focus on the fun part of life or on just being sociable and enjoying it.
> I merely say so because well, some people do not seem to get that, it irritates me that fine and active people like Larry were not for the first time described as if he does nothing else but focus on his sadness and stay stuck in it.
>
> that is so unjust and shortsighted, but well, it is always the same one coming up with the same bullshit, so I should let it go by I guess..
> everyone else here seems to find a fine balance between facing the old pain and living a full life as well as possible.
>
> my reaction is one of wanting to defend people I like and respect against being described in an offensive way, I know all of them are strong enough to just shrug their shoulders, but for the silent readers who are trying to form an opinion, just felt like saying this, there is a lot of fine and very functionable people here, with very high moral standards and kind hearts, who keep working on themselves to get better still.
> I am proud to know them.
> M
Margaret, Your right that it can look like we are wallowing in our pain. The blog is a good place to complain. I feel real good this morning actually. My older son is home from college and he will be around all summer because he has a local internship. It was nice to see him and his younger brother, who is finishing up high school, before I left the house this morning. I slept well and it’s a beautiful day. So those might be some of the reasons why I’m feeling good today. Phil Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:52:56 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes Margaret – Larry can ‘defend’; himself but the interesting thing is he doesn’t or didn’t seem to feel the need to maybe he did not see it as an ‘attack’ if I remember he said he found it ‘cute’…………….but YOU do. How come?
Like the other one with a dead micro-biome you seem full of resentments if anything at all disturbs your ‘religion’ you are scratchy and touchy and so full of offense. But like the other one I ‘understand’ even if is still pisses me off……………..
Quote:- “…..he did not see it as an ‘attack’ he said he found it ‘cute’…………….but YOU do. How come? Like the other one with a dead micro-biome you seem full of resentments”. So!!!! what are you FULL of, peaches and cream and just plain cute???. For myself, I have never thought of you as cute, and I doubt that my shit (biome) lights up. Least-ways when I defecate, its just plain brown and doesn’t illuminate in the dark. Maybe yours does. I’ll take your word for it. 😦 .
Phil: Yeah! I thought of another one would be to swallow some pixels; you know, the ones that glow on the computer screen. But then Patrick is perhaps dead right, and I don’t have any inner glow. The only thing I would like to suggest to Patrick is that he allows for some of the inner glow to flow out and be on the outside. Maybe if he goes on the Kruse cruise he’ll find out how to do it. Poor guy … he really doesn’t seem to know just where his feelings emanate from. :((
Jack, As I understood it, the sun takes care of the outer glow. I watched part of Dr. Kruse’s video. Problem is most of us are too covered up with clothes and are indoors much of the time. Maybe that’s why the IPA always likes to offer nude bathing at their convention. I didn’t participate in that the one time I attended so I don’t know if it also helps to bring up feelings. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
jackwaddington commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Phil: I have done more than my fair share of nude sunbathing in my time and now the skin is all shriveled up, and even my bottom is now droopy. So !!! not sure that is an answer either, but I do love nudity. I always felt there was an honesty about it.
Clothes, make-up, hair-does, Places we live in, jobs. certificates hanging on the walls, fabrications, pseudonyms, and many others I can’t think of right now … are to me … means to hiding the real identity. Who am I really???
What in the end does it all matter as long as someone loves me.
Phil: Yeah! I thought of another one would be to swallow some pixels; you know, the ones that glow on the computer screen. But then Patrick is perhaps dead right, and I don’t have any inner glow. The only thing I would like to suggest to Patrick is that he allows for some of the inner glow to flow out and be on the outside. Maybe if he goes on the Kruse cruise he’ll find out how to do it. Poor guy … he really doesn’t seem to know just where his feelings emanate from. 😦
Jack, I agree that nudity shouldn’t be a problem. But I’ve had enough problems to deal with while wearing clothes; being self conscious and worried what people think of me. At the beach, I just want to have a good time and never wanted to add possible problems to the experience. So nude bathing never appealed to me. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
jackwaddington commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Phil: Suggestion … start of being nude in the bedroom then progress to the bathroom especially if you have a full length mirror there. Next doing around the house. Then in the garden. Then find a nude beach and slowly peel off that outer skin make up from animals and vegetation. When you see others on the beach that are uglier than you, then you’ll be riding high.
My problem is that it would be real hard … now … to find someone uglier than me. But what the fuck; if I get to a nude beach I’ll just strip off, and see others finding it hard to look at me. That’ll be their problem. Meantime, I’ll be sucking up all that vitamin D … and shriveling up even more.
Problem … getting to the only nude beach I know of is Point Dume. To far to drive.
I once had a patient who was an ex nun. Before she,” kicked the habit,” she had acquired huge body issue conflicts. She used to tub bathe wearing a floor length cotton garment. Shedding that costume was a major break for freedom. My mask was being invisible. No, I did not really think I could become invisible,, figurative speech ??? hah
Hi Jack, if you can’t find fire flies there could be another way. The Museum of Ideas and Inventions (MIBA) of Barcelona, Spain has on display fluorescent dog biscuits and food which will provide glow-in-the-dark dog poop. Supposedly helpful for night joggers to not step in. It is said will be coming to the USA. Munch, munch.
Sylvia: Where can I buy these dog biscuits in the LA area. I would love to have my poop, as you put it, light up in the dark, especially at those times, when in shear desperation, I need to drop my pants and do it right there and then.
That is nice what you wrote about your friends, Margaret. I can say for myself and I’m sure I speak for the others when I say that the feeling is mutual.
I choose to devote my time and energy to the people important to me and to bettering my life. There are many people who care about me. Almost all the people I know respect me and marvel at how well I’ve coped and moved forward from Noreen’s death. But only a very few know about the primals I’ve been through along the way, and the only people who know how difficult loss is are the ones who’ve had the misfortune to experience it themselves.
There will always be people who don’t see and don’t understand, who seemingly can’t and probably never will. They have little sway or influence over me, the more I accept how my parents never saw me. I feel there is nothing to be gained by arguing with them. They will say what they will, but being on a very different path they will never know or understand mine, and I feel no need to waste my time becoming distraught about it.
I’m touched though by how you want to defend your friends. Thanks Margaret.
Always stick with the ‘group’ and the ‘Faith’…………..never think too much for oneself and always scurry back to the seeming ‘safety’ of doctrine and received wisdom…………….and stick together…………easier that way and no need to think or feel alone ever…………………….for all the TRYING to feel alone………………… ‘want’ to feel alone but don’t actually do it…………………so much of primal is that………….want to but don’t actually……………wish to but don’t do……………..
> ha Phil,
> that is very nice to hear.
> despite the very mediocre cleaning team I feel good too today, at least I did my best to take control of and care for my life, wil do the rest of the cleaning mostly myself again, and ask for a hand with some stuff to a girlfriend.
> it sounds like you and even Larry in Canada have much better weather then we have right now, here it is sometimes a bit sunny, often clouded, and too cool for the late spring season. and will get even cooler and wet tomorrow…
>
> but then again, I like an occasional walk through the rain with an umbrella, smiley..
> M
> yesterday I went to meet a fellow student at her house.
> she is about to finish her bachelor, and has not yet decided what specialisation she’ll take in her masters.
> our statistics teacher brought us in touch, he wrote ‘you are two fine persons, and she has a couple of cats, so you might also enjoy cuddling those while waiting for yours..’
>
> so we got in touch by e-mail first, found a number of things we had in common, and finally yesterday I went over to her house..
>
> of course felt a bit scared to go there, but it turned out really well.
> the cat I saw was gorgeous, and we had a lot to talk about.
> after talking about the courses, I told her an overview of the story of my life, and also talked about Primal Therapy.
> I got slightly emotional two times, once talking about my first primal and what a big impact it had, and how nice it felt to find back my almost lost 4 year old self, and the second time when talking about how touching it can be to be in group and listen to an otherwise succesful person in life, allowing himself to become a distressed young kid again.
> I talked about how I would like to work on adding up my own experiences one day with everything I am learning, and what I might want to expand on, which subjects etc.
> she told me the fields she would like to work in, and told me stuff about herself as well..
> it was a stimulating and inspiring afternoon, and it felt good to have gone there, and to get to know people like her and my teacher, inspiring and smart and nice at the same time.
> come to think of it I find myself more and more able to really enjoy meeting new people, specially when the encounter goes beyond a certain superficial level.
> i was also surprised at how easy it was to talk about myself and all the aspects of my past, even the ones I feel not so proud of or a bit embarassed about. the sum of it all makes it all kind of ok seemingly and it felt amazingly good to present myself in this complete way.
>
> it makes me feel my selfconfidence has grown stronger somehow.
> part of me will always remain somewhat shy, and another part simply loves attention.
>
> sometimes for example with my mother on the phone, not always but often, I find myself almolst reluctant to speak much, as if it takes a lot of effort to just talk and tell her about stuff, it feels like a physical and emotional chore kind of, and then on other occasions, with people I like and trust, or people that simply show interest, I suddenly find myself loving to talk and talk about this and that and the other, that difference keeps amazing me as it is so big and obvious.
>
> that silly side of me should get some more opportunity again to even be boisterous and to make people, including myself, crack up from time to time.
> so well, I should start socializing some more again I guess, it seems about time to invest some energy in that once more..
> M
Margaret wrote
“there is a lot of fine and very functionable people here, with very high moral standards and kind hearts, who keep working on themselves to get better still.
> I am proud to know them”
Sounds like a speech at some club or dinner. Kind of what I would call ‘phony’ and makes me wonder who are the people WITHOUT ‘high moral standards’ or who DON’T ‘work on themselves to get better still’………………….the outsiders the one’s who don’t belong in this little phony make believe club…………………….I think I would PREFER to be outside of that kind of thing…………..
Rather than ‘try’ to feel alone I would rather BE alone…………………some people might call that ‘acting out’ and maybe it is from a certain point of view………………….but I guess i would prefer to be ‘acting out’ so called than simply ‘acting’ as in play acting at being alone. Go on and on about ‘alone feelings’ but always cling to the group, mimic the group think and use their words and go to their retreats and have their birthdays etc. Maybe it’s just a different way of dealing with a wound that refuses to heal. Anyway that’s not my way I have my own way……………..
Phil – I have almost finished the book on Luther and it seems to explain something. I feel ‘primal’ had some great promise that is not being fulfilled……………..if I thought it was truly worthless I would leave of course. Even now as i am getting ready to go on the Kruse Cruise I am looking to take a few Janov books with me that I can show them but I don’t actually have any. (If anyone has any to loan I would accept them – I don’t actually want to spend any more money to buy them) So I am not simply someone who sees no value in it but don’t think it is being ‘done’ properly for the most part. Many people have speculated primal will be re-discovered. Maybe it will but I feel it will have to be from a different direction………………..maybe I am trying to find that direction……………
Patrick, You didn’t answer my question. You say you want to be alone and not cling to a group. Yet you seem to want to be a part of this group, maybe also the group on Dr. Kruse’s cruise. Your certainly cling to us here. You have your “own way”, so what is it? Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
I believe there is merit in your words, Patrick. I respect that.
My interpretation of , “…a Primal World,” was that we’d be getting on quite nicely. I though that ideally we should live in Primal Communities because we wouldn’t want to struggle with all of the fuck up in the real world.
I thought that kindness, understanding and resolve would be features. Maybe just my neurotic needs….
I thought I’d spend my post primal time attending to real needs and responding appropriately to real issues.
But maybe our DNA dictates that humans are supposed to believe in magic like our thousands of years past ancestors, explaining thunder and epilepsy in terms of anger of the gods, or, being possessed with devils, wandering towards the ultimate reward for passing all tests, that beautiful meadow in the sky for the faithful. Maybe we’re supposed to behave like 9 year olds who haven’t progressed past their limited social skills of name calling, creating impenetrable cliches, scratching, hair pulling and fisticuffs.
You have tremendous resilience Patrick.
If you feel so inclined, tell me what is ,”your way.”
You say:- “I feel ‘primal’ had some great promise that is not being fulfilled…………….” then later follow it all up with:-
“So I am not simply someone who sees no value in it, but don’t think it is being ‘done’ properly for the most part. ”
So what the fuck is the PROPER way to do Primal. It seems, I now gather from several of us, that you are forever (and Geeze does it seem to go on and on and on), telling the rest of us, that It’s not being done properly.
Suggestion:- Get in contact with Gretchen, OR Barry B, privately, and tell then how to PROPERLY do Primal. All else, it seems, is YOU claiming to be the only one that knows how.
OR … For fuck’s sake … tell US what is the right way. Your silence on the matter is deafening.
Put another way “we’re all out of step except you?” Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> David,
> thanks for replying, it sounds like a very complicated situation, to grow up in, and I know how difficult it is to try and explain some of it as it is so hard to catch things in words, specially by writing.
>
> my own mom used to do that to me to, mess with my mind, and then tell me she was abused as a child, so I have some idea what you talk about when you say she robbed you of your feelings.
>
> it is very hard to unravel the whole tangled up mess of need and anger and pain and frustration and concern and love and guilt and frustration and resentment, and Idon’t know if hate comes into the picture, that word somehow sounds not right, too all encompassing black and white.
>
> how many siblings do you have, and how were they, or are they?
>
> if you feel like writing about them here, I’d understand if you rather not, I feel a bit inhibited about doing so too much about my own brother, as I know he would hate it, and I feel like respecting that.
>
> we grew much closer together again during the last couple of years loking after our mom while she is aging, becoming very forgetful but even more stubborn than she always was..
>
> it is so sad to have to deal with the need and the pain of not getting the love you deserve yourself, while also seeing the need and pain of the one supposed to have given you that love makes it impossible.
> I am in the middle of trying to accept I will never get it, not in the way I’d like to, and accepting that pain helps to see what was and is still good in her, and love that part.
>
> a kind heart is the main thing, all the rest is ‘behaviour’, which of course can be excruciating .
>
> I once described my feelings towards my mom as irritated tenderness or tender irritation.
>
> sometimes it gets to plain irritation and even anger, lately `i have felt more able to express that, but now I am over that stage and into a calmer area of going with the flow and not struggling if possible..
>
> M
I am like looking into a mirror for my sibs. I reached out and they ran. God/religion, alcohol and womanizing are their medicines. Two had the nerve to say they would pray for me, to lead me to their Jesus. Jesus is one neurotic defense I don’t have.
I would simply be recanting a history for the sake of the telling. I have shared some just to describe me. No therapeutic purpose in rehashing the resolved.
I went to Dr. John Raiss in April. He did an overview of my life as well as talking of psyc meds.
We agreed I was using too much caffein, especially in the form of caffein pills. I was taking about 1800mg of caffein a day.
Dr. Raiss said caffein is like opiates ( such as Demeral or Percodan.) Caffein and opiates relieve depression at first but more and more are needed and eventually they stop working.
We made a specific plan for me to cut down and graph my intake. It seems vague goals don’t work well.
I was having a caffein crash most afternoons.
I’m trying to taper my caffein use. Dr. Raiss said using the cold turkey process would take about nine days.
I see I must take care of my medical health. I can’t just take a pill or feel a feeling to override not taking care of my health. I must also watch diet and exercise, and I’ve heard a bad diet puts on weight faster than exercise takes it off.
Beginning Primal comes with a series of dietary recommendations. The only scientific work I have ever encountered on nutrition and health is available in several books for the consumer, by Dr. Peter J D’Adamo. I referred his work to patients who did extremely well. It departs from the one size fits all dietary recommendations. Eat 4 Your Type and Change Your Genetic Destiny are two that are good to start with. The 2nd is a primer in the Science of Epigenetics.
> Bill, is that really you?!?
> the one and only Bill I know??
> in that case so nice to hear you here, great really!!
>
> if it would be another Bill Jones, which I doubt but well, strange things happen, welcome too to the blog, smiley,
> Margaret
Thanks for,” frightening,” up my day, Larry. Just kidding , appreciate it. This guy can rip my guts apart. That place that is just feelings for me. That big ball of burning whatever in my low gut.
Night before last, went to bed. Should have known,but it’s been years since the last visitation; achy ankles; hyper sexual; the nasal gnawing grunts started. Not enough energy to let that unfold; and, anyway it’s out of sequence. In early days it made me feel I was going to be one of the anointed ones. It can stave off tension for several weeks but does not resolve anything.
This time I tried to fight my way out of the feeling. On the other side of my BR wall is an old man ; i can hear his breathing. If I let this proceed to the wails he’ll freak out. The bones in my face and head start to ache violently. So I forced myself out and sobbed and snotted quietly into a pillow.
I suspect it’s fighting to get born; doing it all myself. Her fighting to stop me.
I think ,
” this place,” has reopened primdora’s box, and I’m back in the little house of horrors. But shit, I survived it all in real time. I’m better armed now. Can’t be fooled anymore. Fuck I’m just whistling walking past the grave yard.
I don’t know how it is for you, but for me the dread is worst before the feeling. For me it feels like when I’m finally in it, it’s only because I’m ready, and it’s a relief to finally feel some of it.
The grave yard is full of dead people. I believe they can’t hurt you. 🙂
Exactly. I was figuratively reflecting on my resolve, which may be bull shit, that I am up to braving the pain and the truths that are sometimes revealed, the old adage about pretending to not be afraid. thanks
I think I was only ever in one group, a mixed group, that Vivian co facilitated. I went off on a woman I’d never met, because I felt she was trying to garner sympathy as a manipulative tactic. (Just like my mother.) You know what it’s like when the persons words don’t match their emotional delivery. I know it well because that’s how I am when I’m in my head, spouting bull shit.
Anyway, then I got afraid of reprisal. I curled up in a ball beside Vivian, and that process started; the 1st time. I’m wrong, she moved away and deathly panic set in, I needed to struggle, to get the closeness, I moved closer, she pulled back and then the process began.
Vivian commented at the end of group that she thought what happened was I, “got smaller.” What I heard was, it was insignificant, or that I was lying to get attention. And I never asked what she meant. I still do that. I think I don’t want to appear stupid, and in that case to be told I was full of crap. I often got beatings for pretending the beating was worse than it was. All fucked up shit, man.
Once my mother was chewing out my brother, 7 yr my senior, who had hurt me I was 4. I ran outside and cut a rose thorn switch for my mother to beat him with. I was excited that he was going to finally get a turn. She often sent him for one to switch me. She looked it over said it looked like a good one, said let’s try it out, and told me to drop my pants and then beat me with it, bare arms and legs, for wanting her to hurt my brother.
yep !! When the pain is the worst I have wished that she had succeeded in killing me. Sometimes so down on myself that I say out loud, ” no wonder you wanted to kill me.”, stupid , useless twit I am…
She had lots of history to explain it; mom died when she was 4, her gran at age 6; relinquished to Children’s Aid before 7; ritualistically beaten and raped by the Baptist Minister who served as the agency’s agent who kept her at his boarding house until age 10. Then abused at a series of farm placements.
I met her 70 year old niece a few years ago. Looked like her twin. But Bernice is so kind, so gentle, so wise; I had to stay away for her. It was looking at the mom I missed out on. Too much..
Not too strange I chose social work and labored to clean that mess up.
Now it’s pretty much under total gov’t control again across Canada and a complete mess wherever gov’t is in charge. Loyalty to the minister and fear of job loss keep the social workers in line. The only scandals that ever surfaced in this province involved gov’t owned, hand picked and promoted, social workers.
Like Winnipeg. It makes me sick. Manitoba child services has been a disgrace for all of the years I have been informed. The minister was in tears before the media, distraught even, when the 2nd Indian child was brutally attacked. She, the minister has regained her composure now. It’s back to business as usual. Well I better not get started on my rant about the ongoing genocide of the North American Indian. Mr. Hitler had teachers to follow, the white Europeans wherever they went.
So sad David. Your family’s story is heartbreaking and I marvel at your survival and glad you had the strength and smarts to seek therapy. Thank you for sharing.
It was a combination of witnessing first hand what Primal Therapy can do and desperation, Sylvia; not my strength nor smarts. Also something I call my spontaneous hyper naivete. I reach a fear point where some unknown worst thing that could possibly happen is happening,I just react.
I left therapy when I received word that my wife had abandoned our teenage children. It was a wrong decision. I would die for my children. But it was the wrong decision; taken 10 years after I should have shown her the door and raised the children alone.
Wow David: That is the best ever comment I felt you have made on the blog and was so moving. A tear came to my eyes reading it. So straight, so simple … and so moving.
Not trying to laugh off the hurt. Another David. wow!!!
Hi
This is a confession.(?)
Some time ago, I watched a documentary about a little monkey who left his tribe and became the leader of an other tribe of monkeys. His mum brought him up mostly in a cave, to protect him from other predators and even from the male leader of that particular tribe. ( I am not sure what is the plural for monkeys).
When time came for him to die, although he was some distance away from his childhood grounds, he travelled back and found the old cave to die in, which he did overnight.
This really stirred me up.
HE WENT HOME TO DIE.
Then came last night. I hardly ever dream, and even if I do, it is more often than not, I am having a conversation or dialogue with someone, or more frequently, I am talking to myself. Who else is there to talk to, hah?
I was deciding in my sleep that it is time to die. I cannot continue my ‘struggle’ to ‘feel better’, ‘happy’. The kids are fine, the grand kids are fine, and Suzi will somehow manage.
The big question is, am I having a premonition that my time has come, after all, whether I like it or not, I’ll be 69 in July, and some of my friends have died already. So it’s not so much just a fantasy.
Or, am I trying to give up my ‘primal struggle’, knowing that I could face death, or shall I say, faced death, way back then, at the beginning of my life.
I don’t have the answer. I presume as my defences crumble, the answer will come, slowly, agonisingly, in time. What really bugs the shit out of me is that I do not remember EVER being ‘happy’.Whatever that means.
Do any of you have similar experiences? Do any of you think of death?
Will I die alone? As I felt ‘alone’ ALL my life.
Forgive me. I am lamenting again. But I am HURTING. It never stops. Forgive me.
In my dream I was ‘seriously’ thinking perhaps i should consider going back to Transylvania to die.
But where? To whom? I don’t recall a cave. Why am I hurting all the time? Why is the pain relentless?
Is the only ‘summer’ in my life when I come to a retreat? Do I have to wait all year around for ‘my summer? Before i come back to my eternal winter?
( A bit dramatic here. Please forgive me.)
Tom
Don’t know. Should I post this?
I think dreams can be just dreams. My only thoughts about my death is on days I wish the struggle would end. I wake and sometimes am furious, sometimes in tears, that I’m still stuck here, still alive. On those days I find the positive in getting older, less time left.
Maybe tomorrow some passion will return.
Hi Tom, That all sounds so heavy. I’m sorry you are going through all of this I hope you can get to the bottom of it. I haven’t had anything similar. At the retreats you’ve seemed to me quite healthy and vigorous even while dealing with big feelings. Phil
“Do any of you have similar experiences? Do any of you think of death?” Yes Tom; a great deal of the time. At 82 I’m a little closer to “deaths door” than you. The only problem I have about my demise is first the conceited one “How will the world survive without me?” The second one is:- will my Jimbo, if he survives me, be ok?
My brother’s death has gotten me thinking more and more about it. He’s now totally free, as I view it. I’m the one with all the problems of survival and what and where to go next and the desperate hope that I don’t die slowly and painfully … in-spite of it having it been wished upon me. The only home I know is ‘planet earth’ and that is where I suspect I will die. Death isn’t the problem … it’s the process of dying that is.
“Don’t know. Should I post this?” Absolutely and unequivocally YES. It matters little what your dream means. According to Janov ones dreams are a symbol invoked buy a feeling. If you know the feeling; my take, that is all that matters.
It’s good you posted, Tom. I think about some people who write here, who had really horrible childhoods that permeate and drain the vitality out of their life in the present, who have a lot of work to go through a lot of horrible feelings and it’s so unfair to them. All I can say from my experience is that having something good in the present, at least sometime, helps make life worthwhile. It feels to me like those old feelings that are so hard for you to sink into are rotting and draining the life out of you.
When I look back over my life, there were several junctures when against all odds I naively/stupidly risked my neck and stuck out in a direction I wanted to go, feeling this will make or break me, and I was so lucky doors opened at critical times and people came out of the woodwork from nowhere and supported me along my way, got me into meaningful work, to primal therapy, and to love for the first and only time in my life. Many times things could have gone differently, wrongly and my life ruined. I feel lucky there were positives in life that helped me through my primal pain.
Now it’s almost all over. My job will be over soon when I retire, Noreen is gone, and I have no purpose or sense of where to go with my life. I’m lost. I don’t know how to make life work for me anymore. I’m having a hard time feeling how to make it worthwhile. Sometimes I feel I haven’t sunk into all of the horribleness of death and loss, and it’s ugliness is tainting any joy that I once had for life. Aloneness is also sapping vitality out of life. Childhood emptiness is always so close now, making it hard to go forward and find meaning and joy.
It seems I will still have to do what worked when I was younger, namely find within myself a direction that will give me meaning, stick my neck out and risk losing it, go forward and hope.
But I’m scared and lost, getting older and running out of what makes me feel alive.
………………(channeling Jack)………….I ‘grade’ my boys I like to give them mostly an “A” (tears stream down my face) of a “B” like here ‘a tear came to my eye’……………I live for ‘tears’ even if I can just squeak one out it makes me feel I am actually alive otherwise not so much………………so I work at that and God Bless Us sometimes tears do really stream down my face. I am in glory then nothing to do with ‘feeling pain’ I feel wonderful I know I am fulfilling Janov’s gospel I am alive and my tears celebrate that.
The above story gets at least a “B+” because well it fulfills the requirements of a good primal story a bit of cruelty etc but what makes it so special for me is to see a therapist and even better a JANOV in all her glory being the great therapist I believe her to be. Those 2 factors scored big with me and then the fact a tear came to my eye (I think) well that’s really an “A” then
I don’t want to give the impression I ONLY hand out a or b’s. There is one student an Irish ruffian who challenges me when he first came on here he gave some glimpses of what my ACTUAL life was like. I will NEVER forgive him for that that is un-pardonable and he must be punished and if possible humiliated FOREVER. Primal values so called be damned someone does not challenge me in my class room and get away with it. I never tire of flogging that Irish boy I would bugger him too but I don’t find him cute……………but the worst thing about him is he does not give me total respect and control in my OWN classroom. That’s what I look for in new boys and this David seemed at first a bit of a loose cannon but I think by praising him and letting him know how to be what is approved and what is not I will be able to maintain an orderly classroom where I am in charge. Soon he should know what is ‘expected’ here………….
Sometimes I wish the Irish ruffian would disappear but in a way I like him being here. I get off on ‘flogging’ him flogging is almost as good as buggering and it gives me a chance to show my chops in that regard. Keeps me in practice and shows to others what I am capable of is someone ‘disrespects’ me……………plus I have nothing else to do no hobbies at all and I ‘get off’ on abusing him. At least I can still ‘get off’ and if I can manage a tear let alone have them ‘stream down my face’ I am in Primal Heaven and praise be to the Janov’s (both of them)……………
Patrick, then I shall surely be handed a F-. One politician wrote of me, to my supervisor”…. bypass the stocks and take the prick straight to execution. Show him the door. He can’t be taught to behave.” Well, I was 40 years walking out that door.
I was pissed when I first arrived here and told by a contributor that I was pronounced welcome here. That was after after I toned down down a bit, thought maybe I had over reacted. I thought how fucking arrogant. There’s a story about my maternal Irish grandpa, an 1862 famine boat child, throwing a mate out for insulting him in his own house. He didn’t bother opening the door first.
I don’t usually dabble in gratuitous flaying, but like you I do not tolerate that being done to me either. The care taker part of me, more and more less frequently still wants to reach out when someone hurts. I suppose that vulnerable child part of me is looking for something here, Larry calls it the , ” IT,” maybe; or maybe it’s trying to feel that old hope, my last hope when I traveled 5000 miles to LA; Maybe I was looking for self help clues I often found in the old Primal News Letter to help Primaling on my own.. I don’t have a fucking clue, truth be told; but the man is not looking for anything here. And as I did with several , ” friends, ” recently, I can walk out the door when I choose, nothing lost, but maybe hope. And maybe neurotic hope is best abandoned anyhow.
I respect that you.don’t suffer gladly. I did hear you reach out. I cannot imagine anything short of one of you having kept with the early christian practice of cannibalizing your neighbor’s baby that would explain the apparent ongoing ,”public-cized,” impass.
Well, who am I to judge ??? I really haven’t forgiven my brother for fucking my wife. That may seem unchristian of me. But he had to drive 120 miles each time, so they can’t cop, ” It just happened..”…..I’ll likely burn in their imaginary hell because he’s dead and I don’t like him any better just because he died. Ah, what the fuck spew it all out, and he buggered me when I was a toddler. But he died a Deacon of his church, exalted by the high priest for loving his jesus. He had fucked most of the female mourners, and they all bawled in his memory at his wife’s side, so it must have been christianly all right.
Goog night, Sir Patrick
I never thought when I first read your reply that you might be referencing my related experience. On second read…??? Now I’m not accusing, just asking, were you pissing on me ?
I know Primal Therapy works. I saw it in our , “mock, ” clinic. I saw shit that would freak people out of their wigs. And when that shit got released I saw very sick people become well and then get on with their lives. No idol worship nor pack infighting.
No David I was not ‘pissing on you’. Not at all. I can see why you might think so it was ONLY my attempt to ‘poke’ back a bit at the poker. I’m a poker, I’m a smoker, I’m a mid-night toker lol………………..
Also interesting David you saw things that impressed you and were real at a ‘mock clinic’…………….me too MORE so than anything I saw at the ‘real thing’. How strange life can be. “Real” and “mock” it turns it was mostly ‘marketing’ convince them something is scarce, convince them nobody else can provide it, patent it, dress it up as unique “A diamond is forever” and THEN charge a lot of money for it Corner the market then for the future, discourage and deny anyone else’s contribution and you should be right as rain for a long time at least. A nasty plan.,
“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
―Robert A. Heinlein
sounds rather actualized to me, Patrick. That’s healthy, I think… cheers
I feel strongly that there needs to be a counter response to the one proffered in this comment of Patrick’s. Not about me or who or what he deems I am. There may be some truth in that.. What, I feel the need to counter is just why (as I read him) Janov decided to withhold the practice of Primal Therapy from those already trained in the Freudian tradition. It was, as I perceived it, an act of INTEGRITY. Perhaps best described as an ‘integration’ of both parts of the brain:- ie the feeling brain and the thinking brain. A completely NEW notion/concept at the time.
In, somewhat, a defense of those wanting and hoping to jump on the bandwagon of Janov’s discovery; were two factors as I saw it. The first was an ego one, of believing that their psychology degree was a passport to enhancing their ability to make a living … in light of the discovery. The other was in believing that if Janov himself was able to start from scratch … why could they NOT do likewise. I have no idea what took place with both Art and Vivian in the developing of his special therapy (Primal Therapy); but he did write, he needed input from his children “TO KEEP ME (him) STRAIGHT” and his wife, and perhaps also input from patients that had, had re-living experiences, namely Danny and Gary. So he did have, as I read it, more than just his own musings. Another factor was (again … just my assessment):- The ability from merely reading … as I feel Patrick is the prize master … at MISSING the essential ingredient. A factor, many of us humans attempt to asses about many NEW NOTIONS … all down time.
I do also feel that most that read “The Primal Scream” intuitively and subliminally recognized the INTEGRITY of that book. How else could it have become a ‘best seller’ in the way it did. It touched thousands … maybe even millions … and continues to do so … seemingly. One last point:- There is a blog, “The Primal Support Group”, moderated by one of our own, Phil, that for the most part is composed of people ‘self primaling’; many of whom have had no formal (Primal) therapy. I am not aware that Art Janov’s Center nor the Primal Institute is suing them. So much for the alleged; ‘keeping it under wraps’.
I am unmovable in my absolute belief in Primal Therapy. I have close friends with years of primal clinic contact who are not.
The argument for not promoting Primal to the world does not convince me. Banting might have kept insulin under wraps; and all of those other examples. It sounds simply defensive , Jack, presented in those terms. I think I am as protective of Janov, Vivian,Barry and Gretchen as anyone.
Janov was a joyous Social Worker – Psychologist who had discovered the Holy Grail, not a clinical writer.
We were at war defending Primal/Janov against conventional psychiatry, psychology. Many believed they were well founded in their skepticism. A lot of it was turf war and Big Pharma wasn’t too excited about the prospect of losing drug profits from life long guinea pigs. AA was at war with us for suggesting people could become happily non alcohol dependent without substituting dependence to their god.
And in every book was the disclaimer warning people the therapy was only available at the Institute. So we fought two wars, defending Janov/Primal, and the intent and competence of our centres. We advised every applicant to apply to the Institute first.
For the sake of the therapy it is indefensible that at some point it was not released to the world with their blessing. BIG Pharma won and mental health remains victimized, a pandemic of needless suffering.
How many new patients start therapy in LA annually, 85 – 200. max 8 – 10 thousand over the lifespan of the 2 primal clinics. Where will it be in 20 years?
There was a network developing across Canada in the 70’s; two Primal Centers in Nova Scotia, under the direction of a competent decent guy, who began Primaling 2 years before taking the first patient. At first it was the wreckage Mental Health had damaged and deserted. The recession hit and a feature of new Primal Patients is that we all want to be looked after, for free, patients were lousy at paying after intensive, $ 300.00,X 3 wk for 24 hr availability, open limit sessions,.and we were lousy at setting limits and collecting fees. Some patients thought if those results were so easily available, the therapy so simple,, no drugs, no smart therapists, ( Art discouraged utilizing transference,) that the therapy wasn’t worth the fees, $ 10.00 group, $15.00, individual. After all they’d been fucked around zombies for years in conventional psychiatry, and boom, they were functioning and happier by a therapy their neighbor could have provided.
I cant imagine what the operating costs must be in LA. I doubt if any of those folks are loaning money to Donnie Trump. I do not question their integrity for a moment. I wish I had been born to such kind people.
David: I gather that you are still in process of reading my book “Feeling Therapy ………” Whereby I too feel that there is a posibility of getting into ones feeling on ones own; as many on The Primal Support Group seem to exemplify. Where I felt and still feel there is a need to be extremetly careful is in the patient/therapist relationship.
Anyone feeling the need to go to a therapist I feel is someone that either is not aware that it could be achieved on ones own, OR that they wish to get help as do-it-yourself modus, is not convenient; even if they are aware of being able to do it oneself. I learned most of this by extensive buddying, seeing that the buddy often seemingly wanted to take me in their direction, OR that in my sitting for the other, I wanted to give what I considered a “helping hand”.
Desiring to help does not necissarily mean having the ability to REALLY help … especially since this therapy is taking us somewhere that most of us never vedtured before.
What I mean by being careful is that any ex neurotic carries with them, remnants of that neurosis and, hense the danger of pushing the patients in their direction, or at speeds the patient is not ready for. According to Janov, and I give him the benefit of the doubt, that proclivity is prevelant until such times as an intesive internshnip. Since I have not undergone any orientation let alone training, I can’t say that I have any definitive knowledge. Merely intuition (which may not be enough).
The only other notion/idea that I have had was that in the event of “abolishing money and all forms of exchange” there would ensue a simplicity, starting from the notion that would each learn by instinct, to ONLY bring a child into existence when there was that instictive desire from a man and a woman desiring such. I believe very strongly, that such a situation would bring about loving the child for it’s own sake, and that very practice would occur rapidly. However that’s just my notion and apparently is a notion NOT shared by many others.
Yep, every child a wanted child, and even more difficult to achieve, born to parents capable and suitable to meet a child’s needs.
Buddy’s shouldn’t, I believe, ever, try to be a therapist. I mainly called a buddy to stave off excessive fear. As a buddy I was mute, unless asked for input. I have always avoided giving advice.
There was a time when Arthur knew nothing about how to do the therapy. His gained experience could have provided immeasurable assistance to decent, competent people who genuinely wanted to promote the therapy. At some time he had garnered enough experience to formulate a practice procedure.
If. Dr. Christian Bernard had kept his knowledge to himself cardiac surgery might have suffered.
I am cognizant of all of the caveats. There would have been some charlatans, There would have been properly motivated trainees that would have failed the cull. I’m sure both Arthur and the Institute have failed some trainees and expelled therapists for breaking rules. I admire their high standards.
But we’d still be in our caves picking our teeth with a bird tendon if knowledge was not set free and nurtured..
It will be sad if my grandchildren come across an obscure historical note about Primal, a footnote about a failed ill conceived notion, a dead cult.
That’s how Wiki paints Primal now. In no small part a continuing effort of the real Quacks fronted by chief QUACK, psychiatrist( by certificate only) Stephen Barrett at QUACKBUSTERS.
I went/fled to London in the bitter cold Winter of 1973 to do primal therapy and found it could only be had in LA. It was the pits of winter the winter of the “Miner’s Strike” 3 day week, we kept light and heat on the apt by putting a 10p bit just to keep it going…………..often it just went out anyone one morning it is SO cold I don’t want to come out from under the bed clothes and this song comes on…………………don’t know who it is or what but I thought yeah aside from primal therapy I GOTTA go to California, this way of life seems THE way of life I want
Then I heard this, funny now I feel it is time to leave here…………..is that rumbling I hear a 10 Earthquake………………..bringing down the 10……….
Below is from this writer Jon Rappoport who I like quite a bit. I think a lot of this can be applied to ‘primal’…………..
Limited concepts of space, time, energy, the mind, cause-and-effect—these, too, are “given” to human beings as the be-all and end-all of a story. A story that ultimately short-circuits and short-changes what the individual is really capable of.
The entire mural of imposed Reality is aimed at radically diminishing the individual’s power.
People are consciously or unconsciously fixated on boundaries and systems. They are hoping for whatever can be delivered through a system.
That is a form of mind control.
But here we are dealing with The New. Old notions of cause and effect don’t apply. The past doesn’t determine the present. The way a religion or a science paints a cosmology is irrelevant.
Freedom isn’t a system.
But freedom needs creative power, otherwise it just sits there and becomes a lonely statue gathering dust in an abandoned park.
At one time or another, every human being who has ever lived on this planet has abandoned his creative power. The question is: does he want to get it back?
It never really goes away. It is always there. It is the basis of a life that can be lived. A life that can be chosen. People instead choose roles that don’t require that power. They think this is a winning strategy.
The Sitar adds a hopeless attitude , I was going to say, doesn’t it, but, I’ve always thought. Great Jimmy guitar. A lot of speculation when it was released that Joni Mitchel was the mystery girl. Poor Joni all used up by the fucking cigarettes. Never got off on her voice but she is legendary for her guitar innovations.
Hope, ” home,” is still home, Patrick.
Extinction Level Event. Why do i get sad every time in that comet movie when Tea Leoni finds this info on the internet. Well it is ELE for elefant man most likely. anyway…..
hey another good scene. opening scene mother and baby crying m night shymalan UNBREAKABLE. if you like baby crying and pain being emoted. on a primal primeval level. netflix.not sure if there will be ajny sex scenes. not sure if i care too much about that anymore
> I called my mom just now, to let her know me and my brother would come by this afternoon.
>
> she asked me how I was and I told her about my cold and a bad headache.
> she was very sweet really, told me I should stay home if I felt too bad, or else she would already turn the heating on in her bedroom so I could rest there and be warm and comfortable, and I could leave the door open so I could still listen to the conversation if I wanted to..
>
> she also asked about the kitten, and when I said I’d go and visit the kittens next week, but I’d have to wait some more weeks, again she was very sweet, when she said ‘it must be hard’, she sounded so real and kind, I almost started crying, and still could do so now I guess..
>
> moments like this bring me back in touch with the mother I love, the mother that provides care and compassion, other than the meedy mother who wants endless attention..
>
> she really touched me this time, maybe I will just go and let myself be pampered a little, will see..
> M
I remember seeing the film Deep Impact way back in the late 90’s when it was on the big screen. There’s no doubt the movie had some intense teary-eyed moments. Remember the suicide mission those astronauts were suddenly forced to pursue, and they had one last chance to talk to their families as they flew deep into the comet? Gets me every time! Morgan Freeman was an excellent President in the film, serving as a patrician protector of all the country’s scared citizen children as the deadly comet came bearing down upon the world.
Aside from all the teary moments, the movie did have its slow spells and I was taken aback by all the (almost comical) double entendres.
Double entendres such as…
.The movie had a Deep Impact on the emotional psyche for a lot of people (is that why the title was named as such?)
Tea Leoni played ‘Jenny Lerner’. She definitely “LEARNED” a lot, from being a carefree news reporter whimsically exploring an adulterous affair at the outset to being on the cusp of an event that would end the entire world. She traversed and reported on the worst of humanity as the world’s situation worsened, and she had to explore how her own father abandoned her…..so she “LEARNED” a lot (get it?)….”LEARNER”
The comet was named “Wolf-Biederman”. A comet that’s about to kill the whole world can be considered a “WOLF” at the door, right?
Even the Secretary of Defense packing those “ENSURE” drinks to go far away with his family to “ENSURE” his survival in the coming apocalypse was not lost upon me.
Perhaps this movie is a lesson that amusing double entendres can be gleaned from the worst emotional dramas at times (for whatever reason that may be).
I don’t understand what you mean. I don’t use the product, but by all accounts Ensure is an innocuous and non-controversial item (?). As I said before, it just seemed that the movie had an abnormally high number of inadvertently amusing double entendres within the theme of darkness and doom.
A combination of my inane sense of humor and my genuine concern. , ” Innocuous and non controversial,” we move in different circles Sir Guru. A friend, and former MD colleague, a neurology specialist turned oncology expert, with a Phd in Nutrition says ,” ENSURE,” and the like guarantee our chances of developing fatal cancers and dementia’s. Made from cheap man made sugars and a vitamin mineral analysis that can be obtained from a lump of coal and a piece of boot leather. Cancers love sugar, especially the man made pre digested ones like high fructose corn syrup aka glucose-fructose.
There are lots of healthy Organic products on the market, real food. I see ENSURE for INFANTS and ENSURE FOR KIDS on the shelves. Gotta capture them early and raise . em up right…
cheers…
Hi David. Think I would have to have a comet chasing me before I drank Ensure. The last time had bad low blood sugar from it. Yet carrot, apple, and celery from a juicer is no problem. Guru, nice to read you here.
Jack and Dave, seems like Janov is more giving about the therapy, having their website to view and videos to partake of. It’s been helpful to me and I would guess others. At one time the only info to be had was ‘newsletters’ and ‘journals’. I think he ‘s reaching out to the other therapies with the training videos making more available now.
Hi, David. On the web type in: The Janov Primal Center. Don’t know about the primal support group, though get email from their blog. Think Phil knows address or maybe you can find on web (under primal support group ?) lucky 13 for U Guru. S
I’ve been a card-carrying member of Yahoo PSG since around 2003-2004 when Pat T. from South Africa administered the group. I introduced Jack to the group a few years ago.
Hrm…oh well…live and learn!
I’ve visited Arthur’s site, ( my Dream Team,) but never noticed the training videos. I felt a boulder of disappointment and fear in the pit of my stomach when I got to LA , signed in, and then learned Dr. Janov was no longer associated. Divorced, ran off with some young thang ??? Oh no. I’ve been deceived,, no help here, I’m finished, the sky is falling…..
I pondered….twelve different responses here (some lengthy and some brief) that never saw the light of a “Post Comment” button…This was number thirteen and it survived. Bye!
WordPress has a habit of causing the e-mailed comment and it’s “leave a response button” to disappear. such that if one subsequently wants to respond then the only way is to go into the blog: find that comment and then hit the “reply” button. What seemingly then ensues is that the comment does not show “in response to …” Assuming that a Guru did not already know that 🙂 .
No, Jack…that’s not what I meant. I typed in a dozen responses to David and considered the potential complications that could arise. None passed the test, and thus I chose not to press “Post Comment”. I highlight each message, hit “delete”, and try a new message. Number 13 was bland enough to pass muster without being mired in an unprofitable quicksand without any personal rewards.
Just for the record: I did not get an email to this response of yours … but being already on the blog saw your response so hit the “reply” button.
Dunno if this helps, but I find writing replies easier to deal with if I write them in ‘wordpad’ first then copy and paste. Sometime for reasons beyond me; the whole email does a disappearing act and though sometimes miraculously returns; many time doesn’t.
I suspect old age is setting in … with all it’s irritants. I’ve done my utmost to reverse the process … but with little or no success.
I realize everybody has their own concerns and interests, and I will try not to bore anybody here…
Yet, I took a quick glance at the news today and read about Beau Biden dying at 46 of brain cancer. This is Vice-President Joe Biden’s son.
This news is a bit worrisome to me because Beau’s mother was killed in an auto crash when he was two years old…almost exactly like my past. Did Beau’s brain cancer come about in his 40’s as a result of repression from his own childhood? What’s in store for me here? It also appears Beau had a stroke some years ago, as well. There were no obvious symptoms (perhaps transient ischemic, not sure).
Guru – I just read that right now also. My first thought was how much did he use a cell phone? Which side of his head if it was on one side was it and did that correspond to cell phone use? I guess we all have our own fears but very sad for him and his family
Patrick: That’s a super-detailed question which would be almost impossible for the general public to know. Just to begin any conversation on it, either the Biden family or Beau’s doctors would have to deem cell phone usage to be a factor in the first place.
Not saying it’s a bad question, but probably impossible to discover the answer without knowing the right people.
Guru – I take your point there but to me it is an interesting question. I spoke about this before but I have a similar reaction when someone goes ‘off’ like in a school shooting or the guy who brought down the plane in France in that case I am usually curious about what kind of psych meds they were on. Usually the answers to all of these questions are “Yes” but as you say hard to get the specific information. The thing is any of these situations have huge potential to ‘educate’ the general population and for that very reason are generally totally avoided in the media. LIke now if somehow it was to come out that Biden was a heavy cell phone user and even tied it to the specific part of the brain it could really ‘educate’ people. But I am not holding my breath on that one.
I had spoken with Gretchen in the past about my fears of having a brain aneurysm; she would reassure me that nothing will happen. I have taken her at her word on this and I can only hope she is right. I suppose if she had told me things will not be alright and my brain will explode, it wouldn’t have helped matters, anyway.
I get scared with health issues too (getting older does not help either). Some things are just genetic too. VP Joe senior had a near fatal aneurysm too when he was 46 and recovered after 2 surgeries. But yes, poor family, unexpected.
Sylvia: That is a good point about the genetics. I didn’t consider that, thanks. Wouldn’t it be nice to grow younger? I wouldn’t mind living forever as long as it wasn’t a completely agonizing experience every minute of the day.
Biden’s similar childhood drama with my own did raise alarm bells for me considering all the things Janov has talked about over the decades, etc.
I finally found something on netflix that is not depressing and also moves me. BB, you told me last year, but i must have forgotten. House is in the house. Old dog is on my lap. Other stuff is shit or it isn’t but escape works for me tonite.
All these wars, human trafficking, and refugees trying to find something better and no one wanting them and drowning when their overloaded boats capsize on the oceans, is really getting to me tonight.
My kid talks to her and not much to me. Only because i am walled off. He will get phd in a year and then what will he do. the big unknown. i have too many fears. like the 2nd house episode, you hate to see your kid in pain. in my case, i caused a lot of his pain. shit.
Apparently there are 37 million churches in the world (not including mosques, synagogues, etc.). How are you, me, and Art going to straighten these people out, David? Are you ready to work some overtime?
I cowardly lived as a closet non mystic believer for years, having kicked that opiate at age 12. A few years back a card carrying christian boyhood, ” friend,” confronted me on the issue in a public place. I, ” came out,” with an unequivocal no I don’t believe, in gods, in jesuses, in religions. He then set out to save me and I finally had to remove that irritant by expressing my views. He gives me a wide berth now.
It was so empowering to say who I am. How anyone of normal intellect could believe that shit is beyond me. Anyone who does, fine, but I don’t want to hear about it.
I finally told that to a clergywoman, Phd Theology, friend of former, or pretend friend, whatever those people are called; when she expressed her quandary, how such a kind, loving, person like me could be a non believer….
I think we’d have better luck popularizing , ” belly button cheese,” both unpalatable thoughts to me… hah
David et all. More and more people are finding that temples churches and synagogues are becoming redundant. Just a few, like my father when he was nearing his end, decided that he might after all be a believer … JUST in case …… Now most in the western world are seeing the unutterable stupidity of even contemplating these fairy stories. Give the Muslims a little more time and they’ll come to the same conclusion.
But then after that, we have to see the utter futility of “Culture” Cos that’s another fairy tale. We are first and foremost just humans … and all the subdivisions are becoming irrelevant with the ever diminishing size of the planet, due to fast travel. Next, national boundaries, mere limitations on who are able to travel, settle and breed. Inevitably: after that, the stupidity of needing to be governed, cos the governors are just as fucked as the rest of us are. All that is then needed is:- to burn the law books: just another restriction on freedom. Guess what; from henceforth the need for control (ostensibly the others) will evaporate, and the we can burn all currencies (means of exchange).
All this assuming that some bunch of clowns (feeling privileged) don’t try to kill off the rest of us, and as a consequence of “unintended consequences” kill themselves off also. Highly likely, especially for those that fail to see the simplicity of Primal Theory.
Jack,I don’t think it’s true what you say here. Most people in the westernworld belong to the established christian denominations. Becoming morecommon are people who are “spiritual’, but don’t belong to any church.Children are indoctrinated at a young age in religion and that’s why itbecomes a core belief. It didn’t happen in my case for some reason.My family was very half hearted about religion and going to church andthat might be why.Phil
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 20:46:11 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
All I get to see about Amarakah these days is via TV. It appears that Christianity and other fundamentalist ideologies is alive and thriving among the politicians, whites who kill non whites for sport, and the non white victim populations. It’s been that way since between 9 million and 3o million Americas Indians began to be the target for genocide. If only they had sunk those early ships. Man they had whitey outnumbered. But, oh, no, they had to be kind and hospitable….
I attend ceremonies for survivors of the government established Christian Residential Schools, where kids were, shorn, branded, tortured, sexually abused, by clergy and nuns, medically experimented on, an estimated 30% murdered, and they open or insert somewhere a prayer to the christian god, and some thank jesus for sparing them. I get physically ill, and furious. They wrote the handbook for training camp for Hitler and his ilk.
Doesn’t it ever cross minds to ask why in the fuck their god allowed it to happen if he’s so all fucking loving and powerful ?? That’s called complicity. No fucking common sense. How long have modern humans traipsed this planet, 100, 000 years ??
Dashes my hope for human kind Jack.
The US Constitution preamble sounds like the founders were non believers, a country not to be founded on religion or christian precepts.
Phil: It’s my feeling that what is traspiring is that we are doing something that has been happening to Judaism and that is hanging onto the cultural aspects whilst finding the religeious aspect somewhat “off key” but keeping it under wraps “Just in case ….” by using the word spiritual (without, I contend, defining “it”) It helped me greatly when I was able to substitute “spiritual” with “feeling-full” then the whole ‘pack of cards’ got some ligtitamcy. However, in the long run it’s all about WORDS and that stringing together of those bits (words) to make what we hope is understanding … but then actually failing in that endeavor to understand. Hence WAR.
Just in order to make my point (or ego as the case may be) I wrote in my first book a whole chapter namely:- “The Nature of Thinking”. According to Benjamin Lee Warf we “Think in Language”. If that is so, the implications are enormous.
Jack,You may be right but it’s a slow process and can easily be reversed in the form of religiousrevivals. I wonder how you make these conclusions. If you were to visit many very conservativeareas of the country you might think otherwise. At it’s core I think religion has it’s basis in feelings , and people don’t just give those up. News stories keep popping up about southern states andthe teaching of evolution. They want little emphasis on evolution and creationism given equalstatus in science classes. We don’t need to worry about global warming, a new world will be created.No need to worry about animal species becoming extinct, for the same reason.So I wonder about things changing.Phil
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:24:02 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil;: I am aware of the slow movement of change that takes place in us as individuals, but the young have, and will always rebel. That rebellion is gaining ground and the young are a little more skeptical of the status quo than ever before, and sort of making themselves heard.
It may be seen, especially in our Primal community, that Janov’s influence took a turn to slowing down, but as I see it; and strongly feel it, the stage was set. And the clock cannot be turned back. Patrick aside, he’s unwittingly a part of the past, and hanging onto very conservative view points. But, as I see it, that form of conservatism, seeing it all through THINKING is beginning to fail. It is the likes of me, you and the rest of the blog, the Primal Support Group and others, is keeping the flame burning. Though it might in contemporary terms seem insignificant, it will eventually burst forth. That has been the manner in which all of our human endeavors have taken shape throughout our known history. One only needs to look at ordinary human concepts at the time of Copernicus … not that long ago.
I’ve just been watching a program on PBS about the slow growth of the “Climate Change Movement” It’s accelerating at a rate we could not imagine only just a decade ago. Will it happen soon enough. I nor anyone else really knows, but if not … nature will out. The planet (ostensibly) will continue and perhaps, who knows, a NEW cycle of evolving could/might take place. Nothing stands still; least of all the universe.
Religion, as I see it, was the forerunner of psychology and yes; it is based on subliminal feelings. But, as is now viewed by many, misplaced expressions of those feelings. It survives through indoctrination via fear.
We are talking about kids and, ” young adults,” , the hope for tomorrow’s revolution, who sit in the same room , elbow to elbow texting each other about reality TV and video games ???
That’s a big hyme, I mean, amen, to that, Jack…. Without exception, my kids and grandkids around age 4 challenged the notion and expressed their anger over people being told where they could live on this planet.
It seems from there on we descend into a downward spiral of diminished common sense.
David,I was at the atheist temple this afternoon. Just kidding, actually the gym.There was an atheist temple planned for London: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/25/atheists-temple_n_1231848.htmlI can’t find more recent references to it so it probably was never built.Maybe primal centers would make better temples of atheism.Phil
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:49:50 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
That would be a bit like AA for non drunks, right ?? Whenever 2 or meet in my name……they must be members of the buffalo hunters association….
Shit gotta get off my ass and go to the gym. Not sure I’ll go in and exercise, on e good step at a time….
Yeah, I could be lured into a Primal Temple….
I am really overwhelmed in a weird way. My whole body is in a lot of pain where it’s hard for me to do ANYTHING.
I know EXACTLY what to do. I am not lost here. I know all the steps I need to do yet I can’t carry them out. EVERYTHING feels painful right now. I go to bed so overwhelmed I don’t want to get back up.
I read Larry’s post about being lost and it feels like something I experienced a long time ago. My brain is clear on many things with an angry determination, yet my body has “given up”.
I wish I had a half-dozen administrative paperwork servants and computer programmers carry out my brain’s orders. That’s all I would need for 2-3 weeks and I’d be good to go.
I try to let the pain course through my body as much as possible. Let it run its course through me like a poison. Pain with no insight is not only no fun, but brings up questions as to whether I am being masochistic. I don’t know. I just don’t like it at all when it’s hard for me to do ANYTHING. Even the most trivial task is carrying a great weight for me at the moment.
Guru – my first though is ‘adrenal fatigue’ or maybe ‘chronic fatigue syndrome’……………not to be flip or dismissive………………..but that’s what I like so much for myself the COMBINATION of the knowledge and wisdom of Dr Kruse AND Dr Janov. Jack pay attention I give YOUR ‘guru’ his props too………………but NOT as some kind of be-all end-all ‘solution’. Anyway for me it feels like the difference of having one oar or 2 oars in the water……………..if you have one oar (which I feel too much ‘reliance’ on primal amounts to)……………..you go in circles. With 2 oars you have a chance to move out of the shallow you might find yourself in…………my ‘objection’ to Janov always comes down to or back to this point by making it ‘exclusive’ to him and his ‘ideas’ it has in PRACTICE whatever about the wonderful ‘theory’ led to a lot of people working very hard with one oar in the water. I know this will be probably considered more ‘in-sensitivity’ from me but I see Tom’s sincere ‘reports’ in that way……………….I see Otto as having one oar planted firmly in the water and many more too in different degrees and ways……………..as I say said before maybe Jack IS some exception to the rule he is a very ‘smart’ and ‘unusual’ guy but even if he is (which I have my doubts but whatever who knows) I don’t think holding up some ‘freak’ of nature as a rule for some kind of therapy that would work for the ‘average’ person is a sound idea. Count me as someone who is ‘average’ in many ways it did NOT ‘work’ for me………………I do believe I have found now something well let’s just say works a lot better so that’s why I can be and am a pain in the ass about it. I would honestly ask people here how many feel they are rowing with one oar in the water. I know I did for many years and it is no fun, it’s tiring and the scenery gets VERY boring…………..sorry Guru I kind of went on a tangent there (2 oars in the water can move me in ‘strange’ directions sometimes) but hopefully this means something to you. And Jack before you get your panties all in a twist the 2 oars thing is an IMAGE or a ANALOGY save me the ‘lectures’ about how it is some freaking bullshit about ‘crooked thinking’ or something. I know how you ‘think’ if you could only stop that a bit YOU might not be ‘in your head’ so much. With 2 oars you might even occasionally have a bit of different ‘scenery’ but the thing about you is you LIKE the scenery not matter how ‘boring’ it looks from the outside. Fair dues to you on that but I don’t see it as a ‘program’ that appeals much to anyone else…………..and certainly not the ‘young’ who you imagine to be a certain way, David shows a much more ‘realistic’ knowledge about that………….and many other things too but IMO that would not be that hard…………..to be more ‘realistic’ than you you are super ‘ideological’ a big word for being ‘in your head’ you are SO much there that it is your favorite insult to the likes of me but not ONLY me…………….I looked at the Primal Support Group blog and there was ANOTHER guy there you are berating for being totally ‘in his head’……………it was a strange experience for me like do I have a ‘double’ running around somewhere……………….but then I realized nah………………it’s just Jack’s ALL PURPOSE ‘insult’………….time maybe to get a new one but I forgot you LOVE the ‘scenery’ no matter how repetitive and ‘boring’………………
Interesting what you say about the state of, “being in the head.,” Patrick. We used to point out to people that that was the greatest of the human gifts, the ability to survive with the pain. To suicidal patients I would genuinely say, aren’t you glad you have a choice if the pain becomes so intolerable…. respecting choices is I think is empowering.
And for people who were terrified they weren’t , ” succeeding,” therapy wasn’t working, the assurance defenses would become reestablished was comforting. I’ve got some ,” thought,” rumbling around, and maybe going nowhere, that maybe someone who believes Primal isn’t working for them has in fact had more success that is recognized. Awareness just seems to be more progressive than numb, in feeling and thought.
There are people whose behavior is so objectionable to me that I have no interaction with them But I wish them no harm. Do them no harm.
Sounds like your body is protesting, saying to slow down; especially if you are overwhelmed. (Just a thought.) What to do?? Wonder what a therapist would say.
S.
Hope you are feeling better Guru. Does doing something to take your mind away from the pain help to not feel overwhelmed? Also, Patrick, watched the piece with Ortiz and Janov group few months ago and found it interesting. Art, now a true senior citizen, and not afraid to show emotions crying. Yes, death anniversaries are hard. I still dream of my parents as alive and awaken slowly to face the reality in the morn.
S.
I did recently have an ‘insight’ into this thing about something being ‘the same’ or ‘boring’ and I did realize it was/is a big issue for me……………..because even from a young age I always wanted something ‘new’ or wanted to get away from where I was actually at. So I ‘choose’ to go to boarding school was not sent there…………..I was always moving ‘away’ away from where I was and worse away from myself……………………..so to be honest here even now I realize my ‘2 oars in the water’ idea though I think it IS good and explains a lot is ALSO connected with my desire/need to get away………………..get away from where I am at. I remember in College a lot of people were starting to get into ‘meditation’ and it never appealed to me……………like someone would say all you have to do is lie down relax and get into yourself…………………….and without even ‘thinking’ about it it never appealed to me I could not nor had I any desire to do it. That’s why also last week I was kind of saying hold off on ‘putting down’ meditation………………….it seems like ANY ‘idea’ we might have or I should say I might have is based on a ‘feeling’ even my beloved ‘2 oars in the water idea’. But I don’t like primal (the way I see it) then REDUCING everything to a ‘feeling’……………….that ITSELF is just another ‘idea’ based on some other ‘feeling’ not valid either………………this kind of stuff can and does go on forever and ever…………..welcome to the wacky world of infinite regression…………..could primal be described as that……………..so not only are we spinning in circles we are doing it BACKWARDS lol…………..Jack note the ‘lol’ don’t take this as an ‘attack’ on YOUR ‘idea’ ……………..the one you are in your head about lol again………………………….
…………..or another one I don’t like it ‘here’ here on the blog but I AM here and I STAY here…………….that is a big issue for me…………the environment surrounding me does not feel good but I am trapped in it, can’t actually get away……………feels like being surrounded by a toxic soup………………….that wouid be an ‘old feeling’ no doubt about it…………….
Here is something I just stumbled across. I found it quite interesting and not at all boring, I hope Janov is ok, I am sure he is this was done I think over a year ago. And I did catch him in one little what as kids we called ‘fibs’
I went to the web and tried 3 sites with the same results. Production glitch I guess. I was truly disappointed. Listened to another current inteview. Fr, Janov’s voice is still clear and strong; vocabulary sharp.
It came to me today while cutting down some firewood trees for a friend, that Dr. Janov in early writings said that in our early times it was likely that we primaled naturally. I’ll have to check some of my notes from the 70’s. I could still read my hand writing then… ha
David: It’s my contention that, that is correct and that Primaling (re-living) old feelings is not new. What I do feel however, is that most that did so, interpreted it as a religious (spiritual) expereince … hence totally missed out on it’s usefulness..
I say this since had someone really known what was taking place, that it would have been broadcast … one way or another. It seems to me that it did not occurr.
I also feel that the psychodelic movement of the early hippies (the beatnicks) had a major influence on Janiov. Not sure if Art or Vivian or even Rick Janov would be willing to fill in upon Art’s biography; leading up to the event with Danny Wilson.
We may never know, but in hindsigh.t I feel not much of that now matters.
When I say , “in the past,” Jack, he was referring to our less , “civilized,” ancestors. That they probably did not internalize, rather responded immediately, emotionally, to stimuli.
This is purely subjective but I can think of little children who try to do that and are talked down, with guilt, shaming, manipulative logic, challenging the accuracy of their recall. I remember saying, and I feel quite ill now, saying to my children, ” Is that any way to speak to a Daddy who loves you?”
I heard loud and clear from a 17 year old daughter how my always attending to her toddler colic hours of distress was perceived as me keeping her from her mom.
Acts of commission, omission, and out of the best of intentions all carrying the risk of causing harm.
“When I say , “in the past,” Jack, he was referring to our less , “civilized,” ancestors. That they probably did not internalize, rather responded immediately, emotionally, to stimuli.”
I totally agree … what I was referring to is the last 10 to 20 millennium. I speculate that we have been neurotic at least that amount of time.
I was leaving the local mini mall yesterday as a woman exited the community transit shuttle, hand on crotch, loudly announcing, ” Gangway, I gotta piss. I took fluid pills at my doctor’s office an hour ago, not a god thing before boarding a bus.” A fine example of immediate self full expression and not holding , “IT,” in…….
Now that’s weird, I listened to it this morning without a problem and I checked it again now I can hear EVERYTHING!!. The only problem a bit is you can hear the Pacific Ocean waves in the background which is a little distracting but no I can hear everything!. That’s really odd………………….I found it quite fascinating and also found it quite interesting to kind of ‘compare’ Ortiz’ journey and Janov’s……………….just really interesting I thought.
BTW a prize for whomever can spot Janov’s little ‘fib’ it’s really a LITTLE one I should not even focus on it and I am sure it is not a ‘fib’ just his memory is a bit faulty. I was inclined to doubt some of the ‘creation myth’ of primal therapy but it all seems to be true.
I went through all of my audio settings but not only your posted video but all sites offering the Ortiz Janov interview and every other on Janov’s site where he is interviewed, and the Primal Sessions. I can hear the patients quite well. Also France’s videos are clear and loud. Arthur’s radio interview on his book is fine.
I’m going to hook into my sound system as soon as I can get a USB cable that’s long enough.
On a bit of a rool right now but I just found this also, it’s an interview with Janov about his last book “Life Before Birth” I thought this quite a good interview
My Mom died a year ago to-day (actually June 2nd but ‘today’ in that it was a Monday)…………and it just struck me now she died on a Monday morning………………like was another ‘work week’ too much for her……………..not that she was working now but she did and so much for so long, no wonder she was tired and would not want another week……………..7 children constant farm work including milking cows making a fire everything.washing clothes cooking all the meals on and on and on………….the amount of work she had to do was inhuman. I feel bad for her today I was not getting what I needed from her at all but I don’t feel she was a ‘bad’ mother in that she had some real bad cruel or crazy streak…………….she did not in a different environment she could have been a very good Mother. Her instincts were always there just shoveled under literally you could almost say I cry a little for her now
It’s also interesting she died on June 2nd TWO of my brothers have a birthday on June 3rd. I really don’t think there is anything there but today I think of her like that facing another week of relentless work and 2 births also………………..just all too much for the poor dear. I was just another selfish greedy boy who wanted to be fed, held, talked to, touched listened to……………….but she only had time to feed me. She did that and very well…………..it’s not an accident I suppose that I have focused on ‘diets’ it was about all I had to work with but no blame no shame on her. She also washed my clothes and made sure I had time for my ‘lessons’ but there is a yawning gap where her instincts were never allowed to flower. They would have and could have with some encouragement. Rest in Peace Mommy you ‘deserve’ and have ‘earned’ your rest.
Patrick: How painful was it for your mom to raise 7 kids on the farm like that? Being able to blast through all that work…week after week…year after year..It would sound like a continually miserable existence she had to endure, yet the meaning of family was so strong that it was easy for her to set aside those everyday working pains if she endured it as such.
It seems so sad now when the main goal of life for my Mom was to get a rest from it. As Catholics we were told there was Heaven where we would go but my Mom even felt I’d say at the end was all she was going to get was ‘rest’. And she appreciated that……………….so many times in her life she wanted to rest but could not or was not allowed
I like my songs and this is not really the one I want. But it’s something and sung by a woman Marianne Faithful…………………….not that my Mom was anything like Marianne, no high jinks or glamour or ‘fags’ to smoke. Still it’s the best I can do
I was deeply touched by your words/feelings, Patrick.. I have quite dealt with my mom’s abuses of me on this side of the womb. It is a wonder having survived her childhood traumas, then the drudgery of caring for 4 boys, the infant death of a daughter, no modern amenities, scrubbing on a scrub board, hanging clothes outside 12 mo/yr; cutting firewood; with little help from a coureurs de bois dreamer husband, that she was able to meet any of our needs at all.
I grieve sometimes for the relationship we never had.
Thanks David (also Guru)…………….yes that is kind of how I feel “the relationship we never had.” sums it up a lot.
Growing up as a child I was always on my Dad’s ‘side’ but being with my Mom as she was dying I so much saw her point of view. It really changed how I saw the dynamics of the family. Doesn’t change my childhood feelings but I find ‘understanding’ like that very helpful to me. I find I carry a lot less bitterness towards her now that I got to hear and see all her side of the story. In a different environment she could have been a very good Mom I do believe………………..the environment we find ourselves in can bring out the best or the worst in us. That is true of everybody ‘fault’ pretty much misses the point…………
The blog is getting messy up above so I will post this at the end. I will keep this as simple as possible because I am not looking to be a burden to anyone right now. I simply wanted to just say what I had to say yesterday where I knew at least someone would listen.
Also, I am having a lot of trouble delineating between the plain old pain of everyday hard work and drudgery vs. the repressed pain of the past. If I have a mountain of work in front of me, isn’t it normal to hesitate in despair before trying to tackle it? It’s much easier to simply lay down and put it all off. I cannot do that, though, not enough time.
That is all really. I am bemoaning the aching pains of everyday hard work and it never seems to let up. Should I study and explore how it’s feeling while I do this endless work? It feels like the gravity of the Earth getting the best of me in my mute struggle for excellence of some kind.
I’m rambling too much here. The bottom line: I can’t tell for sure what pains are everyday drudgery and what pains are trauma-based.
Hi Guru. I guess logically it would make sense to table trying to feel and just focus on your work for now. For me, when under pressure to get something done, it’s best to just do the here and now mode and trudge through. Later, if work demands ever stop, you’ll have the leisure to feel if you want to. And if you do feel a bit, maybe the next time your work load won’t feel so ominous. Then, again, maybe you just have too much work. I know a lot of times I look at something thinking I don’t want to do it, it’s just too hard; but I start doing it and it’s easier than I thought. I know others have written about that here too. We think something will be as hard as it always was. I think that feeling of it’s too hard comes from an early feeling but it somehow attaches itself to now. Anyway.
Sylvia: There is one other important thing I didn’t mention here which I discussed with Gretchen a long while back. I don’t want to get into all of that here, but …well the amount of the work is not entirely overbearing (though it’s a lot), but rather the complexity and risk of failure. Makes it feel like it’s not worth trying. Extremely cerebral work, though. I started some computer programming back when I was 14 and I will always regret being distracted into drugs and alcohol in my later teens instead of continuing more computer lessons.
Thanks for writing and paying attention to what I had to say!
I am envious that you are going to retire soon without any financial worries. I know you don’t seem to like the lack of a quasi-support system at work, but I personally almost never get bored by anything and I can find a scintillating kaleidoscope of meaning from even the smallest cluster of molecules, if necessary. I’m sure you can do the same if you need to.
I suppose this is getting a bit self indulgent of me but I tracked down one of the good days I had with my Mom as she was close to death. It is a big deal for me because I had so few of them and it is something I cherish to at least have had something like that before she died.. For that reason I suppose I want to drag it out again. This was written last May 2014
“I appreciate that everyone here is I suppose I could say trying to ‘help’ me. And my situation/position is ‘complicated’ in that all the time I am here I too run everything through the ‘primal filter’ so it’s not that I ‘reject’ it or disagree with it so much……………but the primal filter is also so much part of my alienation or certainly has been.
I won’t even attempt to ‘argue’ let me just describe a little. My Mom is I think close to the end but I have had two beautiful days with her, listening to her and how she felt, about her marriage especially. Her mind is crystal clear, she remembers everything in sharp detail, not just the events but the feelings she had. I got a beautiful sense her ‘moving’ through life, she lived like that instinctively, not a lot of formal education but just simply and again that word instinctively.
I mostly listened and now she moves through life no more but her mind still does and I followed her every ‘move’ in rapt attention. She told me how my Dad courted her (minimally), they hardly ‘knew’ each other at all, That was Ireland in the late 1940’s. But my Dad seemed like a nice man, had a car unusual in those days, had a reasonably good farm. She entered the marriage with high hopes. I asked her did you like that he had a car? She said oh yes I did. She seems now so truthful small little exchanges like that mean a lot to me.
I have always seen my Dad as the ‘good guy’ and my Mom as the ‘bad guy’…………….but now I see it so different. My Dad (like me) was an ‘insensitive’ (to women especially) business guy, he was a farmer but also ‘invested’ in the stock market, was an onion ‘dealer’ etc. I loved my Dad growing up but he I see now ‘manipulated’ me too and also ‘against’ my Mom. She was ‘simple’ or simple minded in his terms he was the ‘educated’ one etc blah blah blah. What a mistake!!. The old Irish have an amazing instinctive (feeling) way of living. My Mom was from that world, my Dad not. He sort of aped the “English” ways and I followed him to my great cost. I missed out on my Mom’s wisdom and simplicity.
I could to on and on, too many jumbled thoughts right now. I have also been talking to another woman in the hospital ward and it so wonderful to me, her ways of thinking, she has even written a book of stories she gleaned from even ‘older Ireland’. The pure instinctive ways of living just blow me away…………………….and yet they are completely ‘normal’ what is abnormal was my over intellectualized approach to life and going 6000 miles away to undergo ‘therapy’ was a huge symptom of that ‘alienation’. But it is me and it is what I have done and like everything is has to be ‘accepted’…………….! gotta go my brother is calling me
I just want to say I appreciate David being here. Honestly I feel better about the blog since he came around. I sense an open mind and just a nice and flexible attitude. Also he has given me ‘permission’ to put in so many entries I used to ‘censor’ myself but with his example to follow I don’t do it now. I hope I am not ‘over doing’ it but it feels nice to just bash out anything of any nature. That is a real nice thing about this blog I was on Dr Kruse’s blog for a while and still do here and there but it’s not the same. It’s like I feel I am supposed to have a ‘topic’ there here I don’t have to just whatever I am feeling or thinking about. Once again I give Gretchen major props for doing this and also want to thank her for not ‘barring’ me. God knows I gave her good reasons sometimes………………..
BTW David I imagine you might find that conversation between Ortiz and Janov interesting. Ortiz was very much influenced by Aboriginal culture and it seemed really good the way he explained and used it. I felt Janov to be almost ‘bourgeois’ by comparison but anyway worth listening to. I still don’t get what the audio issues are.
Patrick: Personally, the beginning of that video struck me as very strange with the ‘mother’s milk’ conversation, so I did some sidelong glances of the bleached walls, French doors, and switched the video off after a few minutes thinking about Malibu real estate values.
This train of thought isn’t symptomatic of anything against Janov per se, but rather it shows me how our personal values have diverged so much over the years.
Guru – do you mean your ‘values’ have diverged from Janov’s. I would have thought you would very much like a beach front property in Malibu. I would have nothing against it myself though to hear the sounds of the waves washing would make me quite nervous. Tsunamis, earthquakes even big storms. We grow up in Ireland near the beach but the people there would NEVER put a house so close to the ocean. Sometimes at night depending on some climatic factors that I don’t understand I could hear the distant roar of the ocean. I liked that but I also liked that it was at a safe distance.
I liked that video very much it had the feeling of not being controlled and I was especially impressed by Ortiz. That is the kind of person I could look up to.
Patrick: When I said “our values have diverged over the years” I meant our topics of interest in general. I don’t have anything against the video being done; I just have other things on my mind, that is all. Malibu is out of my price range and I wish I could change that as quickly as possible. The work involved in trying to do so is overwhelming (as I just wrote yesterday).
I met a fellow patient, he a post patient who could have afforded a Malibu residence, but sadly languishing in the Hills. ( Just my humor., no disrespect nor lack of sensitivity nor judgement..) No longer neurotic but trapped miserable because he couldn’t throw away those trappings because he’d have to leave the income stream, too, and his wife and children were accustomed to that lifestyle.
I was in two Malibu gated homes, as a mover. Bob Dylan has Porta Potties on his Malibu property for his bevy of resident servants. They have no inside facilities. How fucked up is that ???
Is that really true………….if so how terrible is that. Reminds me of the story and I think true that John Paul Getty had pay phones (back in the day when you dropped coins into them) all over his house. Bob Dylan though an undoubted genius seems to have a dark side even a lot of his ‘love’ songs sometimes had a bit of ‘hate’ in them. But I suppose that’s what makes him a good artist…………….he tries or gives a complete picture. This I always think of the greatest ‘break up’ songs ever…………
Yeah, our public broadcaster did a sleuth camera doc on Bob’s , “Howard Hughes,” dogmatics around the issue. I recall one clip catching him frenetically buzzing about his enclosure. Gated communities make me reflect on the tune.” Signs……,” by the Five Man Electrical Band.
Gated Communities, brought to you by, “Turf Builder.”
Patrick, what are ya doin’ ta me lad ? I clicked on the Dylan site, case of tissue by my side, and the screen reads, ” NOT AVAILABLE.” I sense some evil lurking about. First they silenced Janov and now Dylan……Must be an anti pain coalition….
You have increased my resolve to jack up the volume somehow. What I did hear of Janov’s voice, ( I wonder is there more than one Janov in the world ?? hah) I was impressed that it sounded like the voice of a younger man, no word searching, which has begun to plague me, 20 years his junior. In the radio interview he is humble, humorous, but aptly secure to take credit for what he thinks he, personally, the therapy, and the therapeutic teams, has contributed to mental health, and the understanding of the developing brain.
And if only he had once just looked at me, had I shook his hand, or touched the hem of his garment, I would be a reborn man. hah. Do you suppose he donates old clothes to Good Will ?? Hmmm, the,” TSHIRT OF SANTA MONICA,” unwashed, sweat stained, better still if his faceprint is visible. There’s a shrine possibility there,Patrick. Coffee Shop sightings,a frosted cookie in his likeness, a Burrito that screams when bitten into…
And before anyone has a cerebral hemorrhage I am being humorous. I bet if Dr. Janov reads this blog, he’ll laugh his ass off at this. While I remain unmoved that the therapy should have been established far and wide decades ago, I have nothing but profound respect for the man as I perceive him.
Sylvia: In the days ahead, I will think about what you told me. I simply want to be able to persistently hammer through the difficult tasks in my life rather than caving in to the overpowering urge to fling my arms up in exasperated despair and simply lay down somewhere doing nothing.
House again. the show moves me, gives me tears. he and his team fix people. I need fixing. I thought this on the way home from work: crying won’t fix me, it would take a whole lot of screaming. as described in the book by doctor janov, if my memory is correct, the kind of screaming that someone does when they are about to be murdered. i feel murdered, or maybe just beaten up badly. maybe that is what i picked to be my life, if I believed in reincarnation, and i pretty much don’t, but it is always interesting to think about it. my spirit would have gone into my embryo screaming, knowing what lay ahead for me.anyway, not even enough screaming would fix me. And so at times like these, I have to shout, well, its almost over anyways! As I get closer to my inevitable death, that is. I should write that I was driving home up Sepulveda Pass into the Valley, because it just needs to be noted, for some reason. Listening to the Sirius comedy channels. Rushing home to take care of the old dog, and also myself. Boring boring job today. Anyway, something so irrelevant as a comic talking about getting freebies at some show, put the figure of a woman in my head, while driving home today. This was before the thought about screaming above. I don’t have time to put this is proper sequence. It is more like the disjointed sequence of thought that I would have in group, and then the inability to get my mouth open to say those words in group. But maybe I could go to the little room and cry. Of course the figure of the woman then translated into my mom, and of course her leaving me at 10 months, which of course would then lead to baby me crying and definitely screaming. I can always hear that baby scream; it never really goes away. It is a very distinctive scream; maybe some of you have heard some baby scream at some point in your life. It is basically the same scream as the adult who is about to be murdered makes, but of course with baby vocal cords. Probably drove my uncle nuts, which made him want to murder me. Ok who came up with this scenario in Reincarnation Camp? Ok, who wants this one, Dad dies before you are born, mom dies when you are 10 months old, get placed with a cruel murderous uncle and cold aunt for a while, raised by a grandmother and teenage aunt who maybe just didn’t have the same touch as my mother; finally get a stable life at age 5 living next door to another aunt and uncle, kinder, better aunt and uncle; then get that taken away from me at age 10, always left alone in all those years, taking care of myself. Well why go on, who wants this one? Ok you in the khaki spiritual gown. Now who wants to go back as the mouse who gets grabbed by the hawk and is torn apart piece by piece while still alive, and fed to hawk babies? I must really go to bed. Someone got shot a block away from my house tonight by the Sheriffs, I didn’t hear it, need any more horrible thoughts???
I have tears running down my face, Otto. I hope I have enough connected humanity that they are for you, the baby you, and you the survived adult, and not just for me.
What are your real time thoughts about feeling it, getting through it.
I thought a lot last evening about my arrogance, my audacity, to lay claim to my right to be self centered about my pain, telling my story, when there is so much human misery, so much victimization. It is ubiquitous.
This season’s closing scene of the Blacklist, where the scenario is painted of World governments
conducting this experiment like professional wrestling promoters, planning the next war, the next famine, the next scary disease and disease outbreak…..
Janov spoke early on about the resiliency of children.
I am going to end here because I do not want to distract from what is important here, ” You, Otto.”
David – I will post down here…………..that’s frustrating it might be something from my computer. Like sometimes now in my own email it says I cannot play some youtube thing but if I click on the actual address (if it shows it – on this blog I don’t think it does) so then you might not be able to.
But the stuff yesterday was different a few people complained about the audio on Janov and Ortiz that I don’t know as I say I can hear it fine over the waves of Malibu.
Are you having me on about how to copy a youtube video? Well just in case your’e not say you are playing a song you like on youtube AS YOU ARE PLAYING IT (to make sure there is no mistakes) highlight and copy the web address bar. (Control-C) Then ‘paste’ it in this blog (Control -V)
It’s hard to talk about this how to do this without jargon but hopefully that works. Try it (you might like it)
Yep, that’s the copy and paste procedure I use but when I post it here all I get is the script description… I can post to email and Facebook ok, just not here.hmm
I tried, using three servers to hear the Janov Ortiz interview, but inaudible every time. I got bits of Ortiz but almost nothing of what Janov was saying. So it’s not your computer obviously.
David – I hope we are not cluttering up the blog too much (we are!!)…………..anyway just a bit more about this. Say you see here the ‘picture’ of the Bob Dylan song. Right click and you get some options, pick the top one which is something like “get URL address” pick that and that will show you the ‘address’ in the middle of the ‘picture’. Right click on that and it give you the ‘copy’ option. Then say to to your own email and ‘paste’ it in there and you can play it. Sorry I am getting totally irrelevant here………………I will go off for the day and leave a bit of space for other people………………..
You might put up defenses against this, David, but with three failed attempts maybe God was telling you in his own mysterious way not to listen to Janov?
Dear Margaret,
I’m not sure I’m the same Bill Jones you know.
I met you only once, at a men’s Primal brunch around the time of a retreat.
I hope you are well.
Take care,
Bill Jones
> hi Bill,
> it dawned on me when it was too late the Bill I was thinking about has another last name..
> but then I remembered I had also met another Bill once at a retreat, an ‘old timer’ on a one time visit again, can that also have been you apart from the men’s brunch?
>
> anyway nice you remember me, well, haha, maybe a woman at a men’s brunch kind of stands out smiley..
> how are you doing with the caffeine?
> I know it is hard to kick those habits, have kicked several serious addictions, and right now have stopped for some time already to take the occasional codeine painkiller to give me a break from feeling scared and sad and therefor tense..
>
> not having them around, the pills I mean, is crucial, and finding a strong motivation to hang on to.
>
> still I often wake up feeling depressed, which then usually dissipates once I am up and about making myself do stuff despite the feeling of hopelessness..
>
> easier said than done, but it gets easier over time as it is clear it is the best way out of the paralising gloom..
>
> it is a very cold spring here now, and that does not help, and I still miss my cat I had to put to sleep about five weeks ago.
> am going to visit someone with two litters of kittens today, that search a good home, and hope one of the kittens really likes me, smiley, or maybe two, who knows..
>
> do you feel like telling us some more about yourself?
> thanks for replying, Margaret
> Tom,
> I remember your comment from some time ago, which resonated with me.
>
> one thought crossed my mind then, that at least you managed to achieve to raise what sounds like fine (grand)kids, and so fullfill the basic fact of your genes being passed and the chain continuing..
> of course I also know how huge your old pain is and that it interferes a lot with your daily feeling of wellbeing.
>
> guess it is my own life I am evaluating, which is hard, no dkids, no relationship, getting older, being disabled..
>
> then again, my litttle interview being posted now in the university magazine, with the paragraph about Primal Therapy intact, reminded me of another longer interview that was published about me in a more glossy magazine, and a 20 minutes long item about me and my ways of coping with my situation, on television a number of years ago..
>
> not really that important, but also not really completely nothing at all either, my feelings of insignificance and worthlessness must have a large level of old feeling in them..
>
> it is a long process of sifting out the old stuff and get a clearer view of actual reality.
>
> what you wrote made me feel the retreat might be very useful to you once more, as every time you seem to go to a deeper stage of that all encompassing huge feeling of yours.
>
> you are one very strong person, Tom, to keep facing that same monster time and again, making it shrink more and more bit by bit, while hopefully it gets more and more bearable to live with its presence.
>
> old pain always remains with us somehow, I think, but it gets way more manageable and its impact on our life gets smaller.
>
> but for me it seems to go in waves, and the current feeling on the rise is fear, a hard one as there seems not much way of release, no tears to shed, only enduring it and trying to function despite of it seem to be the ways to process it, which gets pretty exhausting from time to time..
>
> trying to live in the moment as much as possible is what I do, otherwise worries tend to overwhelm me.
>
> you are a courageous person, and I have great admiration for your capacity to be who you are in groups, you are a man in full to quote Tom Woolfe, in a very real kind of way.
> as you would say, I lift my hat for you, smiley..
> M
Hi Margaret
I’d like to respond to your comment below from June 3.
> one thought crossed my mind then, that at least you managed to achieve to raise what sounds like fine (grand)kids, and so fullfill the basic fact of your genes being passed and the chain continuing.<
You are right in what you said above. But. A big but.
I started to mimic life from about the age 12-13, when I realised that "I am feeling bad". I couldn't work out why. After all, I had 'everything' in life. Good in school, a gymnast, a swimmer, played piano, loads of friends etc, etc. It drove me mad, not feeling 'well'.
As an adult, I continued mimicking life. Got a job, had a few girlfriends, got married, had a child, did everything adults did. The problem was and still is ( don't tell anyone, top secret), that I still mimic life, but to a far lesser degree, as I become more concious.
It was like when I started therapy 32 years ago. The therapist would told me to ask for what I want. Me…..how can you ask me what I want, I don't know. You should know (the therapist).
What I have been wrestling with all my life, (a big secret), is that I am a baby. How can a baby articulate what he wants. I couldn't, didn't. It was my mum's and dad's job. I really hate to admit it, but they BOTH failed in providing me the nurturing I needed at that time.
Every day, something would drive me crazy, in the present, because NOTHING is ever it. I was so glad to read Janov's latest posting about" IT". So I wasn't crazy. IT does exist.
When will I get my IT? I want it now. Right now. Can't you see I am hurting. I am hurting all the time. Please! Give me IT. Please.
I rather, in hindsight, lived the way I felt. Like an orphan originally, then a homeless person on the street. At least it would've matched my feelings, that were well covered up and totally repressed.
Suzi used to say in the beginning that I am like a ghost, living in the shadows. Unfortunately, she was right.
I am still hurting. Non stop. Somebody, please help. Please hold me, care for me, love me.
Yesterday we were having a conversation and it took me back 3.5 years, when my mother died. I was called in 5 am to the nursing home. I sat next to her. She was dead. I couldn't leave. I kept looking at her, wanting something from her. I still do. When I go out to the cemetery to visit, I stand in front of her grave, and I am still waiting, maybe she will reach out and hold me. Look into my eyes. Be one with each other. For ever.
I am crying now as I am writing. Sorry. I am still a baby. Why can't I have my mum? I will be a good boy. Promise.
So yes, I built myself a life. At what cost?
And yes, I adore my son. He will be inside me till I die. I miss him. I love him.
Sorry. I got carried away.
Tom
> finally the feeling broke through.
> about an hour before friends pick me up to go see the kitttens, all of a sudden, while reading a novel in which the word ‘grief’ was mentioned, something clcked and the dam broke and I started crying, knowing what had been brewing all along.
>
> I still miss my cat so much..
>
> we have had a wonderful ten years together, and going to see another kitten triggers the feeling about goodbye, and about it being definite, crying again
I wailed the day my pal, Mitsu, died/was killed,over several hours; 8 years ago. I held Jake
Shih tzu, 21 earth years with me, while he died, natural cause.
My father died holding my hand.
I hurt more when , “The Friendly Giant”, Robert Homm, died.
>
> have been to cats and kittens foster mothers, was such a heartwarming experience, large family, kids, teenage daughter with baby, and very warm mother, or grandmother, was not entirely clear, with a girlfreind of hers that also fosters stray cats with kittens when necessary.
>
> they also had a little dog and a huge male cat, but all very friendly, even to the new kitttens when they were brought in from the house nextdoors to visit and meet the possible new human companions.
>
> kittens that form bonded pairs stay together and don’t get separated, but many of them are more lonerlike venturers eager to go their own way, the difference shows early.
>
> two of the three kittens I saw today immediately responded by calming down when I made little purry cat sounds, and when I gently stroked the right spots, and sniffed my nose, a definite cat greeting, and rubbed their smell on me and then installed themselves warm and comfortably in my neck and half on my face, one of them, and the other one in the palm of one hand on my chest..
>
> this is important as cats are choosy on who they like or dont like, and they were so very cute, black and white, actually white with black spots, their heads very nice with a white muzzle and white stripe on the forehead, and the area of the ears black, one tip of one ear white..
> the ladies were very ateentive at how we strangers would deal with the cats, but they were actually thrilled to how fast the kittens trusted and liked me. I think they had been a bit worried about me being blind, but that worry quickly vanished completely.
>
> it was such a warm happy atmosphere there, with the kids also very gently handling the kittens, the big cat watching it all philosophically and going here and there for a bit of petting, the baby reaching out to the kittens in their bench in the end, the baby’s hand touching a kittens paw through the mazes of the bench they were in to go back to their cat mommy next door.
>
> it was like a warm shower,both people and kittens so open and warm and welcoming.
>
> there are new strict regulations here, pretty crazy, about when to sterilize and vaccinate new kittens, but we agreed not to follow those rules, but to do it differently, but I do not want to go into this here, too much interfering advice already and I am old and wise enough to find my own way in my own situation.
>
> al the information was welcome, but well, I am not completely ignorant myself either, thank you very much..
>
> this comment is mostly meant for the likes of Sylvia for example, also clearly an active cat lover and provider of a happy home for a few of the many cats needing one.
>
> it would be great if all cats could roam freely in the woods and come home for a warm shelter when they like, but the fact is there are simply too many cats already giving birth to kittens who are there now, and either get a home that is not a house in a huge yard full of mice and birdies, but still a catfriendly welcoming place and much better than the asylum or a final injection.
>
> and f.., why do I have to defend here, it feels so right, a win win situation, under the circumstances, and all hostility I received about this is really so out of place I refuse to give into it, so well, dear Sylvia, this one is for you. I feel warm and happy after having felt once more how nice it is to feel able to make a kitten or cat feel safe and happy as well.
>
> and belive me, I have a clear conscience very attentive about what feels right or wrong towards an animal, so please give me the benefit of the doubt at least and stop the criticizin and projecting. not you Sylvia, of course.
>
> M
Margaret – you do a pretty good job there talking about me but not mentioning my name. That’s cool…………..I seem to have that effect on people. I’m not sure that’s so cool (that I affect people that way) but it is what it is as the Italians say…………..I have to ‘own’ that as Jack says………….
Hi Margaret. Glad you had such a nice experience with the foster kitties. When I was little I played with my cats and kittens rather than with my dolls. I just needed something alive. I’ve always had a soft heart for these babies. I’m lucky that my brother cares about pets too and knows what they mean to me and thinks it’s great when I can care for them and nurse them back to health if need be. It’s always nice having someone encouraging you. Keep up the good work. (I think caring for pets helps us care about people too.)
Margaret, thanks for asking how I am… I’m feeling fairly settled.. I’ve joined a tennis club nearby, and playing regularly now, which makes me happy, and gives me an opportunity to socialise. Typically, on my way to the club this morning, I felt the usual slight anxiety, which is about coming into a group as the new girl. This dissipates quickly as I’m now used to saying hello and making conversation.
So, I do have moments of feeling “at home”, and feel I chose this town really well!
Jo
Dear Margaret,
I’m glad you met an old-timer you liked at a retreat. However, it wasn’t me;I’ve never been to a retreat.
Again, I wish you well.
Take care,
Bill Jones
While not Primal Associated, I recommend this site: info@iahp.org
The Institutes for the Achievement for the Development of Human Potential, PA have been healing severe brain injury for 50 years. They are as bonafide as sunshine. If the symptom is brain injury related, deaf, blind, mentally retarded, Downs Syndrome, Spastic, ADD, ADHD, Cerebral Palsy, Stroke, it can be and is regularly healed. I think that does coincide with Primal and Janov’s research. Normalcy is their goal regardless if the injury was caused before or after birth.
I recommend What to do About Your Brain Injured Child, Glen Doman; and the Pathway to Wellness. In a way the Doman, ” method,” is no different than the Janov method, it uses brain pathways to achieve normalcy.
My computer has a gremlin, so I may be on furlough for a bit. This took 1/2 hour to produce.
Since David’s computer has a gremlin to ‘help out’ here what he has given of course is the email address. The website is http://www.iahp.org which would be what he wanted to show I am sure.
I have looked at it and it seems interesting though I don’t really get a sense of what they do. I am probably being too lazy to find out. But I have tried to contact me and they are supposed to call me back.
What I am interested in is ‘vaccine damage’ and the possibilities of recovering from that. I know 2 boys who are quite badly afflicted whether by vaccines or something else I don’t actually know. But I consider it a big possibility.
I have read a huge amount about vaccines and am as convinced as I could be they are harmful maybe very harmful for some. What I don’t know is there anything much that can be done in terms of recovery or is it just a case of ‘damage done’. My primal orientation always feels recovery is sort of possible for almost anything…………….but I don’t think that is all together true. ‘Damage done’ IS a big factor in life including psychological damage.
If anyone here has heard of anything along the lines of vaccine recovery I would be very interested but I am really looking for some more ‘physical’ type thing, ‘psychological’ can come later if it comes at all…………
gremlin erradicated !! The address I gave was correct. They will send short monthly eletters telling the story of a recovered brain injured child. The legendary book explains the process, a process conceived of by WW 11 hero, Dr. Glen Doman, and Neurosurgeon Temple Fay and developed by the practical application experience of parents and children over 50 years.
I will try to be brief. ” Me,”, hah ..
They use a developmental profile of the brain injured covering all spectrums of development. At whatever stage the brain injured passes , ALL tests, “he, ( for convenience,) regardless of chronological age, is deemed to be at that age of development, be it birth or 3 years.
Children with Downs, Cerebral Palsy, etc obviously have those injuries at birth. They are not however non curable.
A program is then created to mimic every activity he would have passed though on the way to becoming a normal, 10 year old, say. If the brain injury has affected the organ of sight, or the organ of hearing, in addition to general, “exercises,” there would be special vision and hearing stimulation to reestablish
those functions.
A good deal of long dedication by parents, family, is needed. The cost to the family is minimal. I know it works because I have seen the results.
The most severe where I have had personal connection was a drowned hospital resuscitated 7 yr old, Australian child. After a year doctors stopped life support. He kept breathing. The medical recommendation was to withdraw water and nourishment. Blind, deaf, a ,” vegetable,” he fully recovered at the Institutes. He speaks 5 languages fluently, astro physics became his passion..
The last adult patient was Senator Joseph Kennedy. 3 years after his massive stroke, resident at the best stroke recovery centre money could buy, his condition had worsened, no speech, wheel chair confined. He was received on condition the family was not permitted to pay for treatment.
In a short time Joe Kennedy was walking and talking. They have a coma arousal team that has lured long term people back from, ” vegetative ,” states.
Your question about vaccine damage is interesting. The theory is that it is a defense builder rather than a cellular modifier. I must admit that I am a skeptic of
vaccines. I have a friend, post primaler and a doctor, who is skeptical, thinks that some do some good, that the benefits has been overblown, and that risks and damage are understated. Another friend, a doctor, with neurology and oncology expertise, does not recommend vaccination, except for Pneumovax; his children are unvaccinated.
That makes sense I would say. Most any ‘mental problem’ can be seen as ‘arrested development’ of some kind or other. We get stuck or stopped at a tender age. So to start it up again is the difficult part……………..whatever we (I) do we will tend to be ‘in-appropriate’ so it takes understanding people around for it to have a chance. It’s a ‘dialectic’ I suppose you could say, feeling pain is part of it of course but maybe bigger is finding the thread that was lost and picking it up again and kind of doing the steps now that ideally should have happened then. That’s takes a lot of understanding by people in the environment. Maybe that’s what they provide somehow and leads to their good results if all they are saying is true.
I only know personally a hand full of kids treated with the Institutes guidance; Several ” trainable mentally handicapped,” , two very delayed , physically ill “Downs Syndrome,” one cerebral palsy; one Intellectually delayed with a congenital rotating nystagmus, one drowning victim, 7 years old under water at well bottom for 11 minutes. All attained or regained normalcy.
A mom whose daughter I sponsored to IFAHP told me of meeting a recovered former patient working there in general maintenance. She asked if that reflected his level of recovery. He said no, but they had a full compliment of doctors and he wanted to give back to the program that saved his life.
That brought a lump to my primal throat…
> David,
> it’s clear you cared deeply about your animals.
> sometimes I am not entirely sure wht kind of animal you talk about at some point, dogs and one real bull, like in bullfight, is that right?
> that must be the gentle giant, isn’t it?
> didn’t he ever try to chase someone out of his territory?
> I truely love that feeling of connection there can be with animals, at different levels.
>
> I remember once when I could still see well, and I was walking in the hills in Spain, I suddenly ran into a fox, beside the trail, not far away at all.
> we both stood still, and just looked in each otther’s eyes for a while. it was such an open gaze, just a pure connection, in which he must have picked up I meant no harm whatsoever, as after a while he just calmly turned away and trotted along, without hurrying.
> I cherish that memory, those honeycoloured bright eyes and the privilege of that brief but intense encounter.
> those are the kind of things I deeply miss not having proper eyesight anymore.
> M
the, ” bull,” most likely refers to a Valley Bull Dog; there was a bovine bull on the bio dynamic farm where I worked who was friendly. Once he achieved breeding age he became aggressive and not safe to interact with. I had a client whose Hereford bull remained like a companion dog all of his life. I think I would never trust one.
yep, that’s a lotta bull. I like to stay safe. ” Charlie,” is long since become burger. He was a bright guy, but a bull. I hunted deer for decades. No more. I stay away from the farm on killing days. I treat all of the animals as pals. Meat is a necessity for some. At least these guys have a good home, grass fed, free to roam, no meds, homeopathic remedies on occasion.
There I run on again…
I just volunteer for gas money on farm, Organic, Bio Dynamic.
But look on the bright side Phil, ya got to keep your nuts…
Unless you’re smarter than me, retirement hain noo great shakes either. My pension fund got raped while I wasn’t paying attention; per usual. OUCH !!!
Barry says what doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger, fuck am I strong or what…..hah This is a laf at life day …..
I’m rapidly physically deteriorating. I feel I’m suddenly aging very very quickly, or have contracted something very serious like fibromyalgia, lupus, muscular dystrophy, or multiple sclerosis. I have weakness, muscle and joint aches and pains throughout my limbs, feet, hips, and neck. It is getting worse by the day. I wake up in the mornings painfully stiff and sore. It is hard to walk or raise my arms. I have to force myself to move and gradually increase my range of motion so that I’m gradually able to function through the day although with weakness, stiffness and pain. Late in the day I’m exhausted. I’ll be wearing long pants, undershirt, shirt, hoodie, and jacket, and still feel chilled on a 20 C summer evening, while colleagues I’m with wearing only T-shirt and shorts feel warm. If this continues life won’t feel worth living. When I see myself in a mirror I look very old.
I am scared. My doctor hasn’t found any infection that would be the cause of my symptoms. Next week I will see the results of another blood test to determine whether I have an autoimmune disease.
Yesterday it occurred to me that I might have a calcium/magnesium deficiency or imbalance. Yesterday after work I soaked in a tub of dissolved magnesium chloride. It is a quick way to take in magnesium. Today I feel some relief and on a road back to normal. I so look forward to having my health and strength back and the chance to enjoy life with all of it’s emotional pains, sorrows, and joys. For the next few days I will continue with topically applied magnesium. Next week I’ll see my doctor again.
I am allergic to dairy products so don’t eat them. In December I was advised that too much calcium supplementation is harmful, and that we get enough from our food. In January I stopped taking my calcium supplements, which have magnesium also. In February, down with a cold, I first noticed a lot of neck stiffness. Then in March some shoulder pain and stiffness as well. Instead of feeling all better when my colds went away, as time goes by I’ve been feeling more and more weak, stiff, and in pain. I hope that with the magnesium supplementation I’m on the track back to health. I think I’ll make an appointment to see a naturopathic doctor.
Believe me, physical health is the best gift of all, the foundation from which the rest of our life flows.
Hi Larry
Physical ailments are terrible, but not as ever lasting as emotional damage. Or are they? I don’t know any more.
I really am with you on what you’re going through at the moment. I’ve also been feeling pretty bad the last few weeks. After weeks of running to the toilet due to my incessant drinking of cherry juice, to avoid gout, two cataract operations, a major bout of allergy and now a suspected kidney stone attack, which turned out to be a pulled inner muscle after weeks of coughing, I am physically finished.
Today is my first day on recovery, after spending the whole afternoon in the local hospital’s Emergency yesterday.
I cannot tell as yet, what brought what on. Did I FEEL bad enough to get sick, or I got sick, so that I will be reminded that I am still not well enough emotionally. Don’t take me too seriously here, as I am theorising a lot.
I even started to panic that I may be not well enough to travel to the summer retreat. So I have to get my shit together. There is no way I’ll miss this or any other future retreats. Other than when I’ll get too old to travel. It’s a prick of a trip, 14 hours non-stop there and 15 hours non-stop back. It always takes me days and days to recover. Would’ve never made a good airline steward.
Fight like crazy man. I want to see your face at the retreat. OK? Do you hear me?
Tom
My doctor insists there are no Lyme disease carrying ticks here, and it’s too early in the year to have caught West Nile Virus from the carrier mosquitoes that aren’t out until later this summer.
I had only recently become very concerned that after recovering from a series of colds etc., I,m still now for some reason clearly seriously deteriorating by the day. In the last week I’ve been too weak, stiff and achy to exercise, which is very unusual for me. I’m scared. I need an answer soon. If I find that transdermal intake of magnesium immediately gives me finally signs of relief and turnaround, I’ll have a pretty good idea that the answer to my condition is nutritional.
Larry; Just dropped in house briefly from cleaning at lodge; Will check again tomorrow if you saw this. There’s something afoot. I’m hearing these symptoms and the exact same onset pattern from a bunch of people. Do your feet, besides painful have a numb sensation and a sensation that they are expanding, not just a swelling type feeling, but an internal pressure..
Adding a cup of food grade Epsom Salts and 2 cups of Baking Soda to the Magnesium Chloride will increase the transdermal uptake.
david
Larry,In your travels you may have been bitten by a tick. You would think your doctorcould just order the test to rule out Lyme. I’m keyed into to that as I know severalpeople who have been badly effected by chronic Lyme disease. In one case, it took the person years to discover that the source of health problemswas Lyme disease and co-infections from some past tick bite. The acute phase of the illness can be insignificant and not treated and then it lingers on.Of course, it could be something completely different. I hope you’re on the righttrack with what you are already doing.Phil
Patrick You talk about the money to be made on Lyme disease testing and treatment etc, but isn’t Dr. Kruse also selling something? What’s controversial and unsettled is Lyme disease as a chronic condition. Authorities are saying it doesn’t exist but some doctors are treating patients for chronic Lyme disease against those recommendations. Phil
Phil – I don’t really mean Lyme Disease (for example) is like some ‘conspiracy’ to make money it’s more the way the system has evolved. i am sure there are lots of sincere doctors working on it. And of course it is ‘complicated’ and I am far from being any kind of ‘expert’ but reading the literature on the Lyme’s ‘community’ that is doctors, patients etc it was sort of obvious to me basically they DON”T KNOW much of anything for sure about it. It can be for sure a kind of one way road to I don’t want to say ‘Hell’ by believing and following a lot of the ‘protocols’ but yes in a way
As for Dr Kruse I don’t actually know his motives really………….he has a ‘job’ doing brain surgery so his internet activities from where I know him seems to be mostly a ‘hobby’. He does not talk much about it but he has mentioned it is ‘money losing hobby’ once. I and other members pay him $99.00 a month but he has to have web site programming and support and a lot of things of that nature that are expensive to do.He also puts enormous time into it webinars, Q&A’s etc etc that are hugely time consuming. I have mentioned how on this Cruise as far as I can tell I am only paying directly to the Cruise Line. He seems to make no money from that. Like if you were to pay the Sisters in Santa Barbara directly and not to the PI. (Patrick’s ‘idea’ for this year lol). So like anyone he has to make a living I would not begrudge him that but he does not seem to be motivated by money. He said to me when I met him his goal was to change Medicine, to ‘reform’ it from top to bottom. I told him “Good Luck” with that one and even if he did we still as a species have huge problems (global warming etc etc)
As ‘radical’ as he is I don’t think he is quite radical enough……………he is after all a doctor and still though he tries to get away from it imbued with ‘medical dogma’. He has mentioned the most painful thing he has had to confront was the 40 years of ‘education’ was mostly wrong. BUT he still seems to think vaccines might have some purpose, he seems to ‘waver’ on the importance of HIV whereas I think it has no importance. But I have seen (on-line) several of his ‘people’ deal with things like mold, Lyme’s etc with impressive results if you believe all they say. Like anyone he is not perfect and he has a background and bias I am sure.. Another aspect of Medicine nowadays is it may not be ‘safe’ to be a ‘vaccine denialist’ or an ‘AIDS denialist’…………………this kind of reputation could ruin a doctor’s job prospects and could lead to bigger problems. Again he has not talked about this but I wonder if it might not be a factor.
Sorry I talk too much about him probably but yes there is ‘controversy’ about for example Lyme’s – you say so yourself here – which shows to be it is far from settled science. In fact I think there is VERY little ‘settled’ about it. My take on it for what it’s worth (nothing!) is it’s ‘real’ in the sense people do really suffer because of it but I would think there is something ‘behind’ all that. Like one for argument’s sake ‘healthy’ person could get bit and have no problems and others well they will have lots of problems. So at the very least there is added factor maybe we can call it ‘general state of health’ Dr Kruse might call it ‘redox potential’ but whatever a fancy word for a body and system well ‘charged’ as opposed to one running on an almost flat battery. I have put on here before his image of the ‘flat battery’…………….once you have that all bets are off.
Patrick, It sounds like Dr. Kruse is a good person the way you describe him. I agree that some people stay healthy and infection free and others don’t, and there isn’t always a good explanation. I find primal, in addition to other things, helps me to stay healthy. But I think sometimes people who seem to be very healthy in all ways get terrible illnesses. There’s just no guarantee of good health in life. To me, where medicine goes wrong is with a lack of emphasis on prevention and lifestyle choices. But what I see where I work is that the average patient who is diabetic or “prediabetic”, for example, just isn’t at all willing to make necessary changes. What they expect is a pill to fix their problems, and will continue to be over weight and follow a poor diet. The doctors know that lifestyle changes and diet are critical, but it is out of their control, they can’t force patients to make changes to be healthy. So they have to write prescriptions. To do otherwise would be unethical. Also, a lot of the financial incentives in the the way the medical system works are set up wrong. But just because a medical practice or treatment is unconventional doesn’t make it right. I go to my regular MD for any serious complaints first and consider his advice, but also investigate myself to see whether I want to follow that advice or not. Phil
Hello, Larry; Came home for a couple of hours to do laundry. Spending a few days in the bush. I read you are an entomologist.. I’m being lightly sarcastic when I say I never realized how many doctors we have on the blog…You being an entomologist know that 1/ it is believed only a few varieties of ticks carry Lyme disease. And those must have feasted on a small mammal infected with the bacterium,” Borrelia burgdorferi,” 2/ A quick search informs me that only a few cases of Lyme have been registered in Saskatchewan. As a scientist you know how helpful or not that official info’n is. I pulled up a couple of sites you should find helpful. If it was me I would consult with an MD who is a doctor of Functional Medicine. Like Janov and the 50 minute psych sessions, they do not have 15 minute appointments and take over hands on case management. They have a lot more tools in their , ” tool box.” and are considered specialists. No referral is necessary.
I stopped practicing Traditional Naturopathy when Naturopathic Medical Schools began graduating more highly credentialed Nat docs; and then came Drs of Functional Medicine. A well educated, i.e.: taught in Germany, Dr. of Natural Health who has Energetic Medicine electronic diagnostic equipment I am convinced by personal experience can do competent wide spectrum diagnosis. An hour with one of those docs is time well spent. It will be popooed by local docs but NASA has employed this with astronauts for years. An MD friend, Internist and urologist, trained, TCMD specialist,worked in the development of the equipment and therapies. I trust him.
Whatever the etiology of your symptoms, you are definitely ill. I suspect Patrick is correct when he says that a contributing factor to any onset of symptoms is our current condition. Enough stress can certainly disable our immune function. I am thinking, ” out loud,” , not contributing , ” I’m so smart preaching,” realizing you know all of this probably, given your education, better than I.
With your permission I will burn some sacred herbs/smudge. I don’t believe in hocus pocus in any of it’s titled incarnations, but the scent will keep your emergency on my mind. Being , ” electrical beings,” that at least cannot cause harm.
My sincere wishes for regaining health,
Dave hardy
I would like to know if this has reached you.
http://canlyme.com/ This was founded by well intended folks, and appears to be unequivocally reliable.
and:
Biology of Infection with Borrelia burgdorferi
Kit Tilly, PhD,a Patricia A. Rosa, PhD,b and Philip E. Stewart, PhDcorresponding authorc
Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
The publisher’s final edited version of this article is available at Infect Dis Clin North Am
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.
The spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi is a tick-borne obligate parasite whose normal reservoir is a variety of small mammals [1]. Whereas infection of these natural hosts does not lead to disease, infection of humans can result in Lyme disease, as a consequence of the human immunopathological response to B. burgdorferi [2,3]. Consistent with the pathogenesis of Lyme disease, bacterial products that allow B. burgdorferi to replicate and survive, rather than true “virulence factors,” appear to be primarily what is required for the bacterium to cause disease in a susceptible host. In support of this idea, the genome sequence of B31, the type strain of B. burgdorferi sensu stricto [4, 5], revealed that the bacterium lacks factors common to many bacterial pathogens, such as lipopolysaccharide, toxins, and specialized secretion systems. In this chapter, we will describe the basic biology of B. burgdorferi, and some of the bacterial components required to infect and survive in the mammalian and tick hosts.
Go to:Natural history of the Lyme disease spirochete
The causative agent of Lyme disease is a member of the eubacterial phylum Spirochaetes. Members of this group of organisms share a distinctive morphology that includes a spiral or wavelike body and flagella (organs of motility) enclosed between the outer and inner membranes. The spirochetes include several human pathogens, including Treponema pallidum (agent of syphilis), Leptospira interrogans (leptospirosis), and several Borrelia spp. that cause relapsing fever. Although these other spirochetes had long been known to medicine, it was relatively recently that the bacterial agent of Lyme disease was identified [1]
This is interesting. “In a 2010 study published in Science titled ‘Markets, Religion, Community Size, and the Evolution of Fairness and Punishment’, the psychologist Joseph Henrich and his colleagues engaged more than two thousand people in fifteen small communities around the world in two-player exchange games in which one subject is given a sum of money equivalent to a day’s pay and is allowed to keep or share some of it, or all of it, with another person. You might think that most people would just keep all the money, but in fact the scientists discovered that the people in hunter-gatherer communities shared about 25%, while people in societies who regularly engage in trade gave away about 45%. Although religion was a modest factor in making people more generous, the strongest predictor was ‘market integration”, defined as “the % of a household”s total calories that were purchased from the market, as opposed to homegrown, hunted, or fished”. Why? Because, the authors conclude, trust and cooperation with strangers lowers transaction costs and generates greater prosperity for all involved, and thus market fairness norms ‘evolved as part of an overall process of societal evolution to sustain mutually beneficial exchanges in contexts where established social relationships (for example, kin, reciprocity, and status) were insufficient.’
From the book ‘The Moral Arc. How Science and Reason Lead Humanity Toward Truth, Justice, and Freedom’ by Michael Shermer.
Larry I know you have bigger stuff on your plate but on that ‘study’ well I would question it or even it’s ‘motives’
25% of hunter gatherers share
45% of people tuned into ‘markets’ share
Therefore: Market people are ‘better’ or more ‘sharing’ than hunter gatherer people
Sounds more like ‘propaganda’ than a ‘study’ with all kinds of assumptions which leads to a ‘wanted’ conclusion and IMHO a pretty false one
Hi Jo
Remarkable. Where on earth did you find this article?
Reading your postings I can’t help thinking that you’ve re-created your earlier life. Meaning sent away to boarding school, if I remember right. And how now, you go from place to place. Just reading it, is agonising, to me. Keep wanting to yell out…..stop. Stop hurting yourself…..Or am I projecting somewhat here?
This is so hard at times.
See you soon, I hope.
Tom
Larry – I do actually feel for you about your health problem(s).I am pretty sure I could help point you in a very good direction. But I don’t think here is the right place to do so. It could be pretty ‘involved’ but I would be quite happy to talk to you.
Are you going to the retreat this Summer? Will you be in LA then?
I will be back in LA on June 28th from the Kruse Cruise so I am pretty sure my head will be sprouting even more ‘ideas’ than usual lol! You and I have never hit it off so well here Larry (mostly my ‘bad’ probably) but as I hope I made clear in my little “Luther” fantasy I do like and respect you. Above all I see you as a sincere and truthful person who is interested in the truth.
Anyway I would be more than happy to meet up with you if you want to. Larry remember maybe ‘truth’ or ‘help’ sometimes comes in pretty un-likely packages and though I feel you don’t care for my ‘style’ very much, that’s fine I accept my style of ‘communication’ seems to lead to it’s opposite at least 1/2 the time. But I don’t like to see you suffering like this and feel it is only correct to ‘reach out’ to you \especially as I feel it would amount to more than just ‘support’. I don’t think you need ‘support’ so much as the ability to get back on your feet in good health again.
So anyway there I make my ‘offer’ it’s up to you of course what you do with it. I will be ‘gone’ on the Cruise from June 20th to June 28th. Anyway no big deal there is time enough and it would be really nice to see you in LA. I am not going to the retreat but you probably guessed that already.
> Larry,
> you as an entomologist, do you think there are ticks there ?
> my mom has gotten Lime’s and a cousin too, he still has some residual effects, but mostly only when he gets very tired.
> M
My feeling ‘entomology’ or not is the hunt for ticks etc is mostly a wild goose chase. I am following Dr Kruse on this basically he says so called “Lyme’s Disease” and so on are not the real problem. If you have pre-existing poor health in one way or another just about ANYTHING can set you off including a ‘tick’
‘Ticks’ have been around forever it’s true because of climate change etc they can be more of a problem but basically they are not the problem. Lyme’s Disease is a huge boondoggle mostly…………..if you read their magazines they don’t even know what it is, how to deal with it, what does it mean to deal with it etc etc. (I happened to find out a bit about because someone I know was ‘diagnosed’ as having it something I was quite skeptical about I can tell the whole story some other time if people are interested)
I am pretty sure someone will say ‘what the hell do you know’ ………………well not so much but i think I have a good FEELING of where to look and kind of know who is worth listening to. For sure nowadays it is very easy to end up listening to the wrong people or beliefs I would say it is a big majority. Modern medicine is a mine-field of mostly wrong beliefs IMHO………………..I would hate you to see you go down one of those roads Larry.
My story about Lyme’s not that it’s much of a story. David you can see it as an example of a ‘moving story’ if you like. Anyway it’s true
I am sitting in the office of a moving company I worked at for a while after the ‘demise’ of my own or the demise of my part in it to be more accurate. I get a call from the owner who is out doing a moving job. He says he got bitten by some bug, tick, whatever and he wants me to take him to a clinic. I got “Why” what’s the big deal or issue. Oh he says this could be serious it might be Lyme’s Disease (This is happening in LA not Pennsylvania or whatever)
I go “really” why do you think that? I was on moving jobs and though not really clear on it think I have been bitten by things many times. I never gave it a thought. He goes ‘oh no this is serious or could be serious’ I say whatever if you don’t mind paying me and more to the point paying them it’s your choice but I think it is just a big waste of time and money
No this is urgent it has to be done right away he already had got a replacement driver coming out, I just need to get over there as fast as I can and take him to the clinic. I pick him up and again ask him why are you doing this and what does this cost? He told me the ‘test’ was like $1100.00 so I go “joking’………….if they are charging you $1100.00 for a test the odds are pretty good they will find you have it (Lyme’s) I kind of mess with him on this the whole way to the clinic On the way back I say to him I ‘bet’ they will find you have it
Anyway he has the ‘test’………………I think little more of it but a few weeks later I see lots of “Lyme’s Disease” literature all around the office. I ask him what’s going on what was the results of your ‘test’………………He says ‘It’s positive, I have it” Oops should not have had that ‘test’
It was later I looked at some of this literature and I was struck by how iffy a lot of this stuff is, they mostly are guessing and actually making stuff up. They are full of statement’s like Phil’s above about stuff like “co-infections from some past tick bite”…………..this gives all kinds of loopholes and leeway basically they don’t know. But they DO know there is big money in all this I don’t know what happened to my friend the mover but I DO know the $1100.00 was just a small beginning…………….the ‘treatments’ was a LOT more…………….courses of drugs, constant ‘monitoring’ more ‘tests’. goes on and on and on……………..
> larry,
> oops, sorry for missing that you said your doctor thought there were no lyme carrying ticks, instead of no ticks .
>
> hope you find support there, and maybe a second opinion or well, any way you judge best, and wish you a good recovery.
> keep us posted please.
>
> to join in the Lyme panel, there is a lot of it and discussion about it going around here the last couple of years, as we have three times as many ticks now than we had say ten or twenty years ago.
>
> the latest findings here show it is crucial to go on with the treatment long enough if some symptoms persist.
>
> my mom had severe symptoms at first, but she responded very well to the treatment, and my cousin, I don’t know much about the details of how things went for him, but he either did not get enough treatment, or did not react well, or something else went on, but he started having paralisis at somepoint, which now luckily is almost entirely better, unless, as I said, he gets really tired, then some muscles might respond just a little less.
>
> he is a big strong young guy, and my mom is old, and has had a lot of illnesses.
>
> but as far as I know the medication definitely seems to be very useful, but I am no doctor, and tend to be like Phil, listen and explore, and not think in terms of black and white.
>
> it is interesting what you wrote about those baths you take, Larry, I used to think the skin did not let through most substances, but am finding out there too it is not black and white at all.
>
> something as harmful as fenol goes right through it, and I heard tickets, like the bill you get in a supermarket, often are containing high levels of fenol, specially those ‘shiny’ tickets, the ‘slippery’ ones, which since then I handle with great care, try not to touch them if possible, as it is such a toxic product the skin almost immediately soakes up. I always worry about those poor cashiers since, but well, not being an expert it is hard to judge on the level of reality of all the health controversies that go around.
>
> hope Europe does not allow any hormone meat to enter its territory, but it seems they are heading that way little by little.
>
> Larry, somehow I feel a bit bad for all of this discussion to snow under your comment, story, feelings, sorry if I add to the blizzard , wish you well, M
> ha, went tango dancing today, it had been months since I had done that, and it was nice!!
> caught up with my former dance partner, about how he is doing, and he told me six weeks ago they took out 8 centimeters of his colon, but the same week he was already dancing again!
>
> today I also had three or four (very sensual) tangos with my former tango teacher, which is always very nice.
>
> he invited me to a party in a few weeks, also with tango dancing.
>
> it is nice to dress up, for a change, high heels and all, nice swirly dress, good music, good dance partners, fun and good exercise, and good company.
>
> now feel a bit tipsy after only one glass of wine. should go out to dance more often again, glad I went..
> M.
>
>
Thank you everyone for your interest and caring, and for your helpful suggestions. As you can see, there are many hypotheses as to what might be causing my physical ailment. I can think of even one more possible cause that no one has mentioned yet on the blog. Obviously I can’t pursue all of them all at once. I have to do what I can to help myself, trust the experts who are helping me, mainly my doctor at the moment, and when he can’t help me move on to someone else. I’ll be so glad when someone figures out what is wrong. I’ll have one more visit with my doctor this week. I plan to also see a naturopathic doctor.
David, today when I googled functional medicine I discovered there is a clinic here and I emailed them a request for an appointment.
Tom, I do want to pull out of this and be able to travel and see you and my other friends at the retreat. Thanks buddy.
Patrick, I’m good with having a visit, seeing how you are doing and catching up. But I feel I know what you are going to say and where the conversation will go. If I am preached or lectured to, it will make me feel worse and I’d have to leave.
Transient polymyalgia rheumatica. It’s a psychological relief to have a diagnosis. And a prescription, which I started to take at noon and am already feeling some relief. The prescription tapers down to nothing in a month. In midweek I’ll see a physiotherapist to help me with gentle physical recovery through exercise. Later in the week I’ll see a naturapathic doctor at a functional medicine clinic in the hope she’ll be able to help me lessen the likelihood of recurrence.
It’s been a nightmare of becoming more afraid and isolated as growing weakness, stiffness and pain became constant and restricted my life to minimal, bare essential activity moving through ever present muscle and joint pain. I couldn’t even escape the symptoms in sleep, because physical inactivity ramps up the stiffness and pain, and tossing and turning were so painful as to sometimes almost make me cry.
I look forward to a better sleep tonight, and a more normal life in a couple of days. I look forward to returning to exercise and normal living. Though they sometimes seem to daunting, I look forward to regaining health and having the chance to meet the challenges of life.
Hello Larry; Checked in with my friend’s mobile and read your news. The,” transient part,” is related To an ACTH deficiency. PR is most prevalent in women and, to a far lesser degree, in elderly men, who most always also have exceptionally serious accompanying giant cell arteritis. PR’s usually always upper body but in ACTH deficiency cases it can affect the pelvic girdle and the legs; although the symptom is weakness there not pain, if my recall is intact.
For medication I would suspect you were prescribed Prednizone. Rarely is it a short lived treatment except in the elderly. The risks associated with Prednizone are osteoporosis, and with any corticol steroids, the activation of dormant Tubercular Bacterium, which for safety sake was at least once construed to be present in all of us of recent Canadian ancestry. The same is considered true for Lyme.
Patrick, and you, make good points that life style behaviors can render us vulnerable to varmints we are carrying in us, like lyme. I get a bit of a chewed lip about the, ” myalgia’s,” family. I have one, Fibro; and I think, IMHO, its easy speak for, “… patient, you are in excruciating pain, we don’t have a clue what it is but we’ll trade some of these nice pretty beads for some of your wampum…” There are some meds that cut us off from feeling our symptoms. They don’t go away, we just don’t feel them.
Steroid injections into joints accomplish that.
One of the things I like about the MD’s who specialize in Functional Medicine, they really try to get to the heart of the problem. That takes time and hard work.
Honest GPs tell me none of them wants the tough patient, too many old folks, etc. Can’t make lifestyle bucks getting tangled up with a hard cases.
Well, got to hand this gadget back to owner. Will check your further good news when I’m back home.
You’re steering your own ship. I’m all for that.
cheers
dave
I just read this: ‘Seasonal, cyclical variations implicate infectious agents (e.g., viruses, Mycoplasma pneumoniae) as triggers….’ of polymyalgia rheumatica. That makes sense to me. A series of colds this winter eventually resulting in inflamed lungs/bronchitis but not bad enough to stop me from going to work, in my mind was the beginning of the symptoms. If back then I’d seen a doctor for bronchitis symptoms I might have thwarted the development of the polymyalgia. If I’d seen to it that I got plenty of rest, I likely wouldn’t have had the series of colds in the first place. Lesson learned, the hard way.
> Larry,
> yes so good you have a diagnosis and a treatment, and a very good idea to also look for ways to prevent it from happening again.
> so glad too you could deal with it before taking off to the retreat, it would have been so hard if all of this had started while you were traveling!
> glad for you too the medication has an immediate effect.
>
> I found out things like this, unexpected ilnesses or pain, as you say indeed make us value how precious it is to simply be healthy.
> hope you can enjoy that fully again soon, M
>
> thanks Jo, I seem to have missed that on, and maybe some others, who knows, virtual space is full of Gremlins sometimes!
> i specially hate it when text messages on the phone do not arrive as my best girlfriend’s phone’s Gremlin causes, which causes a lot of useless waitning for replies and misunderstandings sometimes!
>
> Larry, you do sound a lot better already! Nice!
> M
Sorry to hear some of you are having trouble hearing the song I find so moving.
No visuals required Margaret.
I think the easiest way to access it is to –
google Youtube music – Shaina Noll- How Could Anyone Ever Tell You
L.
>
> yesterday I had a big argument with someone that assists me, by coming by once a week for about an hour and a half, to help me out with stuff that is hard to do by myself.
> it is her job, she is not a volunteer.
>
> we were going into town for the second time to get the mobile phone from my mom fixed, and I said something like let’s hope it works out this time so we don’t have to go there again. she replied with ‘yeah, as I won’t accompany you anymore in that case!’
> I thought she was joking but when I asked about it, she told me she meant it and gave me some crazy explanation about her view on the new ideas and regulations of her direction, and how she felt I should find another solution as after all it was my mom’s cellphone and blabla
>
> I told her I had tried to find other ways, and that this was urgent and very immportant for me, and that after all iI felt I should have the right to decide about my own priorities,etc, and soon the discussion escalated into a real argument, in which I even told her I felt I can’t work with her in this way, and would ask her office for someone else.
> by the time we were on the tram into town, I had asked her if she had any idea how unsafe this made me feel.
>
> she propposed to go and have a drink first to talk things out.
>
> it worked, she admited her communication had been very poor,and she should have gone about it differently, including me in finding a solution, which I do anyway all the time, as I had already planned several plan b’s for the cellphone problem.
>
> but what matters mostly to me is my feelings were right there, I was very teary, and could tell her about my fear and how vulnerable all of this made me feel, and how hard it can be to deal with what seems simple stuff to others etc.
>
> she thanked me afterwards for showing her my vulnerable side, and I feel it really helped, to open up our communication and understanding, and for me to explore what goes on, all the fear and sadness.
>
> then at night I had a dream which continued the feeling, I was in the middle of a group of people, kind of a walking dinner, and spotted a tall handsome guy who was blind, and thinking about how I’d introduce myself to him, telling him about my own disability, the feeling overwhelmed me completely, even though I stood right in the middle of the room, leaning on the table full of food, plenty of people around, but I allowed, or maybe did not have any other option, myself to go with it, crying and moaning in pain, full of intense grief, letting it take its course until I woke up, still breathing heavily..
>
> it is such a wonder of this therapy to me, that it enables me to process hard stuff like this even while sleeping, maybe some feelings are even better accessible in my dreams, like strong fear seems to be.
>
> today should become a good day, am again going with my best girlfriend to the kitten house, hurray, hopefully able to choose two of them that seem to enjoy being together, and that also enjoy being with me!
> the lady sent me some pictures from the last visit,probably me with a huge smile, with the tiny kitten comfortably installed in my neck and on my chin, looking at the world around it from that warm and safe spot.
>
> M
> had another baby wail feeling just now, set off by feeling sad about my lost cat.
> I am going to visit the kittens this afternoon, and noticed feeling restless and kind of unhappy again, so ended up laying down and taking a stuffed toy cat in my arms, immediately triggering a lot of sadness and crying.
> that imediately turned into baby wailing, almost purely physical expression of sadness, which went on for a while.
> interesting is that the chronic throat ache I have had the last months, or year, seemed to be exactly the same as the ‘lump in the throat’ feeling right before crying, and during the wailing the aching seemed to resolve bit by bit.
>
> i am sure not all of the feeling is processed but still, it feels good the process is still continuing.
> I will miss being around everyone at the retreat and while socializing, but at least my feelings still find their way out..
> kittens this afternoon, exam next week, more studying for next exam in august, and in three or four weeks finally those cuuuute kittens here!!
> got my mom’s cellphone fixed too yesterday, so she will have it back this weekend, to her relief, and ours..
> M
> Leslie,
> in my case, and I think also in Phil’s, we simply did not get the e-mail with your comment, so it was not the link but the entire comment that got lost in virtual space somehow for us, ox M
Jack – I agree it’s not good to keep it all inside but this will have to wait for another day (busy) and don’t feel like getting into it now. But thanks for asking I’m sure at some point I will……………
Hi
HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was going through some old emails and found this article. It’s in Hungarian, but if you put it onto Google Translate, you’ll get the gist of it.
I was stunned to read Nussbacher Melitta’s mum telling all the 5 year old kids to say good by to her daughter, as they are leaving for Romania, and THEY WILL NEVER EVER SEE HER AGAIN. („Gyerekek, búcsúzzatok el Melittától, mi pár nap múlva elutazunk Izraelbe, búcsúzzatok el tőle, mert soha többé nem fogjátok már látni.”)
I have often talked about leaving Romania, leaving Europe, and never ever going back. I’ve often wondered if I made this up, or was there some truth to it. Made it up because I was in so much pain already, that leaving Europe was to alleviate my “old feelings” of me wanting , but not knowing what from and why.
” you will never ever see Melitta” again. I never ever saw my childhood friends, for an awful long time. Caught up with my class mates after 54 years, last year.
My old feeling is, that I will never ever get what I want.
I will make a pact with the devil right now, if I could go and sit next to my mother in the nursing home, even though she is dead.
MUM. I WANT YOU! I WANT YOU NOW!
Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s unbearable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WANT HER RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
Being as this is a blog about a feeling therapy, I had assumed it was understood i was talking about letting go emotionally, not intellectually. Yes, i suspect a voluntary, thinking letting go would be a walking away from the feeling, but it would never occur to me to do so, and so isn’t a part of my lexicon.
In was only as in response to your comment to another person about how they handle things. It was a question not a judgement. How are you feeling, Larry; physically….???
Just a genuine general question made in the spirit of conversation, Larry, and not meaning any personal reference to anyone; If I continue to suffer an event emotionally for an extended period wouldn’t that mean, in Primal terms, that I have not actually mourned the event ?? Or that the emotion is not about the current event at all, but rather brought up by it ??
My reason for checking out, and participating, was looking for others’ insights to help me make the most effective use of self Primaling. That doesn’i quite express it but as close as I can come. I don’t know about others but I can go down non productive paths repeating chasing a familiar feeling as a defense. Just being sorry for myself. Avoiding the feeling.
Reading Jack’s book I am trying to be aware of my language in my self speak, separating ,the ” feeling,” from the ,”emotion,” connected or not connected to the real feeling/event. And practicing it in my writing should help. Thanks, Jack.
I had completely forgotten Dr. Janov making that point.
Oh, that;s me, Larry, as I hit post and your comment came up on my email for delete, I know what I was thinking. I read your comment to that person as asking, why they can’t just let go. It made me think, letting go isn’t a conscious choice; but only occurs once the provoking feeling has been felt to the point of resolution. As you say this blog is about feeling therapy.
Actually, I didn’t ask Tom why he can’t just let go.
I was connecting with him in feeling how hard it must be for him in that he can’t yet let go emotionally even just a little bit. I was communicating some sense of understanding of the depth of the trauma he has to deal with.
I self-primalled before I got to LA. Self-primalling helped me for sure, but on my own like that it was easy to go off the rails and become moored in a suffering with a feeling but not actually feeling it, an act out.
Soon after starting therapy, having real feeling people around me, especially the therapists, helped me to know the difference for myself between having a real feeling and chasing a feeling. A real feeling has a life and painful truth of its own that I want to run from, not chase after. The real feeling happens if I let it after I learn how I try to prevent it, and it opens me to uncomfortable truth. For me a real feeling comes in the act of chasing life. Coming home after work and breaking down because I hit a wall and can’t see myself going on with my life any longer is a feeling I want to run from, not chase after.
In my experience, the act out happens if I chase the suffering and wallow in it and don’t want to face the truth, which happened before I started therapy, but not since. Facing the truth sometimes feels impossible to do but is the best thing I can do for me, feeling it bit by just bearable bit. It seems to me it takes many, many eruptions of feeling a very difficult pain, over years, before some sense can gradually be made of it and finally feeling it out to the point of some resolution. My guess is for most of us some feelings are too horrible to approach and resolve, unless we have a long enough time to slowly chip away at it.
I’ve had to reconcile it’s what’s left for me. I’ll never be able financially to return to LA.. To quote Barry, loosely, I was able to build a bit of a tool box while there. There is no one to buddy with here. Everyone else who did primal has moved on, geographically.
> another amazing fact of nature that just impressed me:
> the monarch butterflies fly from North America, even Alaska, all to a small forest in the hills of mexico, some more then 3500 miles, and gather there, to spend the five winter months, with as many as 500 million butterflies, all hanging around in certain trees to share their warmth in the night, enjoy the sunshine, and drink at small rivers. they don’t eat at all during those five months, and search a mate.
> then the long flight back home.
> only the energy reserve they must have in their tiny fragile bodies, well, not that fragile to do more than 10 000 kilometer back and forth, on as good as an empty stomach, it is so impressive!
> on top of that they are gorgeous, they were filmed in close up, flying, in slow motion, wow, I stood next to the tv so could see it,fabulous!!
> these things for me keep making life worthwhile, natural earth being so beautiful and fascinating..
> M
Margaret – what is also amazing about them at least from what I read is that no one butterfly makes it there and back. They breed and die off either on the way there or back or while there in Mexico. Apparantly the one that arrives back is typically the ‘grandchild of one who left But they still ‘know’ how to find the place they are destined to go to and back. It is pretty amazing and scientists are having a real hard time figuring out how they do it.
The latest theories is it’s some kind of combination of light and magnetism. The light supposedly ‘bumps’ up electrons in their eye and that then ‘senses’ the earth’s native magnetic field. Pretty exotic stuff if at the same time very ‘natural’ one writer speculated they might ‘see’ the magnetic lines of force sort of the way they are shown in science books. If we can see light why not that they can ‘see’ magnetism.
Yeah they keep flying to the ‘right’ and ‘listening’ to Bill O Reilly and scientist are trying to figure out how that combination somehow brings them home…………….
Here’s a goodie: hits me in the tear ducts for some reason{
I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
You look lovelier tonight than I remember
I’m so glad I got to see you once again
I’ve enjoyed just sitting down and reminiscing
But I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
So you say you’re happy now, you’ve found a new love
Tell him, I said, he’s a lucky, lucky man
No, I don’t think I’ll have time to see his picture
I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
There’s so much more between us than this table
All those years, all those dreams, all those plans
Guess you know without me sayin’, I still love you
But I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
There’s so much more between us than this table
All those years, all those dreams, all those plans
Guess you know without me sayin’, I still love you
But I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
Songwriters BILL ANDERSON
but i like porter wagoner’s version
Read more: Porter Wagoner – I’ve Enjoyed As Much Of This As I Can Stand Lyrics | MetroLyrics
I’ve sung that while wailing on my old J45 and cried my heart out more than a few times at break up time, hanging on to hope, pledging to just hang around forever. Sad, eh ??
That’s the undeserved obedience my mom wanted, too.
Post Primal I sang, ” So long, farewell, verpiss dich adieu; Adieu, adieu, fick dich ins Knie, too…..” Fa la la la la la la la la…..
Waylon sang, ” I hope the train from Caribou Maine runs over your new love affair,
So you’ll walk the floor from door to door,
And pull out your peroxide hair,
Then I will have sweet, sweet, sweet, mental revenge…..
All on the road to getting free, and not having any emotion about them anymore.
Real time pain like knowing you’ll never see, hold or talk with, your child again, I wouldn’t want to expunge.
A thought occurred to me. It might have been my murderous Texan uncle who sometimes played country music at his house. I don’t remember it right off the bat, but this thought just struck me. If that was my introduction to classic country music, that is a mind-blower. I gained a fondness for that kind of music when i was older, when my cousin sold me an 8-track tape player and a Hank Williams tape. Not sure how young i was at either of these memories. Anyway, just saying.
Reply
Below is another bit from this guy Jon Rappoport. Margaret seems to think me going on about stuff like this is aimed just to hurt her whereas in fact it is an attempt to help her our and hope she does not repeat history with her new kitten(s). Some things can really be just what they are or seem to be not some ‘projection’ or whatever of something else. Like Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I do not like the way she has tried to turn me into some kind of ‘bad guy’ who needs banning and ignoring etc etc. But whatever I can take it………….it takes more than that to bring me down or shut me up lol………………..this goes for others too (they know who they are)
“The claim of preventing disease before it occurs is one of the strongest propaganda efforts of the global medical cartel. It is used to pump up and justify all other medical druggings and procedures and diagnoses. It is “a banner of pride” flying on the medical flagship.
Vaccination, through its toxic effects, is an attack on what would otherwise be a much healthier early childhood in many countries around the world. In short, if wellness and health staged a strong universal comeback, it would expose the lie that “everyone needs doctors all the time.” That egregious and repulsive lie is one of the cornerstones of modern medicine.
Based on these reasons, how confident and trusting would you be, when this medical establishment has gained direct access (by needle) to every individual bloodstream in the world? ”
(including animals – my comment)
Patrick, You might be interested in this vaccination forum: http://www.curezone.org/forums/f.asp?f=74 I found it just now for you, and it’s probably a better place to debate this topic. But I wonder why the vaccination issue catches your attention so much? Why do you care whether Margaret’s kittens are vaccinated or not? Phil
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:00:46 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – and why are we alive? and why does anyone care about anything? and why do you always try to steer things down some imaginary ‘correct’ track, and what’s it to you? why why why…………………two or more could play that game………….
To try to answer your question I listened here to Margaret for literally years detailing the constant it seems ‘illness’ of the cat and after a while I start to wonder about it. I think a bit about it, I read some more and I gradually form conclusions. I try to ‘share’ them with her but she seems to think it is just some ‘attack’ on her way of doing things
And it is a ‘disagreement’ with her way of doing things that’s true and when I see her eyeing up more cats it honestly kind of gives me the creeps…………….more misery and more sickness will be coming down the line for them…………….so excuse me Phil if I have an ‘opinion’ on this and right now I don’t feel like checking out your link as it just seems some effort to ‘side line’ me in favor of what……………………where we can all just talk about our ‘feelings’ in the abstract or without context. That makes no sense to me.
‘Feelings’ are our way of relating to the world not something in themselves. The ‘failure’ of primal is very much connected with this in my mind at least……………….feelings as the ultimate commodity as a friend of mine recently said…………..feelings just for the sake of themselves mostly disconnected from anything ‘real’………………
Patrick, I just don’t get why you go on and on about vaccinations. My own theory is it started because you saw someone talking it on the PSG forum. In general the idea of vaccinations probably triggers people because authorities make them mandatory. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
No Phil – your ‘theory’ would be wrong. I glanced at the PSG forum for a short time and never saw anything about vaccinations there. Why make it some mystery about ‘motivation’ …………what ‘motivates’ anyone to do anything………….it became an interest of mine really through a series of accidents and I tried to follow it for whatever reason (probably because it ‘interested’ me – how circular is that)
I am pretty much ‘through’ with it but I have formed certain beliefs as a result. And I reserve the right to express them as I see fit. I am not interested in joining any anti vaccine movement, I don’t have kids and really it is almost of ‘academic’ interest to me. Plus I never did well with ‘activism’ a fault in me really I am more of a ‘thinker’ or some might say ‘dreamer’. But that’s me but I am gratified it seems to have made a difference to my brother in Ireland and it seems to give him some strength in dealing with the almost relentless pro vaccine propaganda he has to endure. And this is only as regards animals. Animals of course make the perfect ‘victims’ they don’t talk back and nobody really cares if they get sick. Children are a close second but people care about their kids and can see the holes in the argument at least sometimes.
But with animals at least in the EU they are adding vaccines constantly and again I remember I grew up on a farm there with NO vaccines and NO illness to speak of. You may consider this ‘anec-dotal’ but to me it says a lot. It seems appropriate the vaccine promoters talk about ‘herd immunity’ We are being treated like a herd all right so maybe that bothers me. I think there is no need to wonder about my ‘motivation’ I could just as easily wonder how come you are NOT ‘motivated’
The end run of the commercial, MGM back lot factory food animal game makes us the victim, stuffing that e coli contaminated, hormone, antibiotic, beta agonist, nitrite, drenched flesh into our gut.
Opinions are dangerous uttered in the form, ” now believe this as the real reason,” Phil.. Your , ” take, ” is not something I would take to heart. I have spent decades educating myself on Allopathic Medicine, including vaccination. It’s as unclean as the Vatican Bank.The top Merk scientist recently gave a statement to the FDA about the hidden dangers and lies about efficacy surrounding vaccination. He then resigned. All Big Pharmas Co’s have been convicted criminally in US Federal Court for, lying, fudging, concealing, medical larceny in the past 5 years. Allopathic/Conventional Medicine and Big Pharma was a vicious adversary of Primal Therapy, painting Dr. Janov as an unqualified deranged egotist. The thought of patients not buying $ 300.00 wkly appointments and a closet full of psychotropic drugs, “till death they did part, did Not Impress them Much..”
” Iatrogenesis,” death caused by physician, is the leading single cause of death in North America. The drug companies own the private hospitals; the hospitals own , ” private, ” off campus, medical clinics, who own the doctors, according to a neurologist friend of mine. Now he may be wrong. I’ll suggest he ask you.
David,I’ve spent decades working in healthcare and have my own views but I’m not reallyinterested in debating on this. I see you feel strongly about it and that’s fine.Phil Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:14:50 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Quote; your last paragraqph:- “Feelings’ are our way of relating to the world not something in themselves. The ‘failure’ of primal is very much connected with this in my mind at least……………….feelings as the ultimate commodity as a friend of mine recently said…………..feelings just for the sake of themselves mostly disconnected from anything ‘real’………………”
Nuerotics: like yourself … and for the most part 99.999% or the human race don’t have a clue to the WHOLENESS/TOTALITY of what a feeling is. You are prize on this very blog at DEMONSTRATING just this.
A FEELING bereft of it’s EXPRESSION is precisely what PREVENTS real communication with the rest of humanity. That was the great discovery that seemingly you failed to grasp. Hence you are forever trying to explain this whole phenominon in that left lobe inside your head with phrases like:- “The ‘failure’ of primal is very much connected with this in my mind at least”
For fuck’s sake man. It’s not figure-out-able in the MIND. That is where you missed the train, bus, boat or, what you will.
By your own admission YOU FAILED with Primal Therapy. For an unuterable failor you are pathetically stupid to try to explain the failor of THIS THERAPY.
Shit; you are so fuicking irritating to me on this blog and I suspect many others. But seemingly you are ‘out to prove somehting” …., though you NEVER say what.
“Failure” is an emotive word, nobody like to ‘fail’ and for me to admit I ‘failed’ at PT well actually I think that takes courage if I might say so myself. I have always had the need to ‘succeed’ so it’s very hard for me actually
It is also very much the mark of a cult to stifle and direct back any criticism as some moral failing of the questioner. Janov has done this forever you being one of his loyal followers even if he keeps you well clear of his ‘inner circle’ apes that all the time.
Luckily for me I have found a way not to be only a ‘failure’ at something that basically the way it is done could not ‘succeed’ so I do not feel bad about myself however much you try the ‘moral failure’ shtick.. Call someone a ‘failure’ and it should shame them into ‘compliance’ that’s your (and Janov’s) rotten little trick. I am glad to say I have pretty much freed myself from that kind of cult like obedience
Life is better outside the box especially the primal box.
If “failure” is an emotive word for you … then hang in there … accept you failed at something …. just as I can and will accept that I failed in business. The real problem with your discourse is that you do not fully admit to failure BUT are so fucking adamant that Primal Therapy, Arthur Janov, possible me, and uncle Tom Cobley, have ALL FAILED. From a reluctant admitter of FAILURE …, you are prize at denoting other’s failures. Where do you get the brains from to make that assumption. I suspect Eireland: especially those that want to go to the sun, but have bethought beforehand to do it night !!!!.
It’s an arrogance on your part that isn’t gaining you any friends, as it comes across to me.
Next what do you know about “CULTS”? Fuck all … if my reading of you is anything to go by. AND no-one, to the best of my understanding, is trying to get you to “comply” with anything. I personally am delighted that you go on and on with your silly reasoning. It give me great fun (a lovely feeling, by my standards), that I express with a variety of expressions … laughing out loud, getting irritated by your comments to a Primal Therapy blog, incredulous that I hung around you for as long as I did, and sometime get pissed with you.
My take on you is:-.”to say I have pretty much freed myself from that kind of cult like obedience” That’s not what it looks like from where I’m sitting. But then who the fuck am I ????
Also if someone even uses the word ‘mind’ and it is ONLY a word…………….you jump on it as proof of a ‘head trip’ how weak and stupid is that. Should I say instead of my ‘mind’ my ‘system’ or my ‘body’ whatever it is only a word. I saw you doing the exact same thing to another guy on the PSG group constantly berating him for ‘being in his head’…………where are you in your ‘gonads’ I thought Primal Therapy could ‘cure’ that so are you a ‘failure’ too primal therapy was supposed to ‘cure’ being gay, but the way I know you you came to therapy gay and ended up gayer. This is a serious question “Does that mean you FAILED” to use you own emotive and manipulative word. You are just another full of shit primaller……………..
I humbly submit this site; http://www.greenmedinfo.com, , which my MD, ND, and CD, friends subscribe to
for education on health including vaccinations. I recommend taking out a Professional Membership.
Cornered by a reporter hoping to extract a negative quote about Primal Therapy, ie: , ” Why did
you quit Primal Therapy?
John Lennon said, ” I didn’t quit, … …some of us also have lives to get on with.” He went on to exalt Primal Theory. Finally ,exacerbated by the relentless nitwit, he said well except for me no longer needing drugs, alcohol, or a Maharishi, maybe I didn’t get much out of it.
The reporter didn’t have the brains to realize he’d been pissed on. I didn’t think it wa so subtle that the average person would have missed it.
now , my story, my story, come on, come on…..
Why do you care that Patrick cares, Phil ? We all participate here by choice.
We all have companion animals or friends who do. We all likely have relative children. As humans we should be concerned. Vaccinations are overstated in need and efficacy and understated in risks according to the independent science I read and qualified medical friends I respect.
Vet medicine has become one more rip off industry. Once responsibly utilitarian now it is a designer status symbol. I use no vet services, my cats and dogs are flea free, tick free, and worm free. They reach 20 – 22 calendar years of quality life. No decrepit joints, no skin problems, no psychological problems worse than mine.. My MD friends don’t vaccinate their kids; I don’t buy preprepared foods for myself nor companions..
And I don’t abide direction to preprepared scripting.
David, I think we all already know how Patrick feels about the vaccination issue.I just don’t know why he wants to hammer us with his views on this repeatedly. I haven’t noticed that anyone has a strong interest in it. I’m seeing his anger inregards to the issue, not so much that he cares.
I tend to get triggered by this kind of preaching. I have experienced it in the past and it feels like I am not being listened toand treated as a person. I don’t have to agree on this issue.I have looked into information on vaccines many times in the past and am satisfiedthat they are very useful and backed up by science. I don’t know much about theiruse for animals. I see that you don’t agree andthat’s fine. I do think that something like the vaccination forumwould be a better place to engage in these type discussions, where people are activated about it.
But actually there appears to be something personal about all of thisIt is probably as Margaret says, just something to use to get back at her forwhatever reason. Patrick’s whole reason to be here seems to be to attack anyonewho has an interest in primal, and contradicts him in any way. Phil
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 00:24:16 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Read my whole post Phil. Vaccines are shit and that truth is out there to be found. Monsanto says ROUNDUP is good, but it’s poison. Only sheep follow the carpet baggers.
David, I’ve read your whole post. You come across as a know it all.Also, there loads of good material in your posts for fans of conspiracytheories. I’m just not easily convinced on this type stuff. It spreads aroundas easy as shit hitting a fan and mostly worth as much. Phil
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:34:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Not at all. But when dirt slinging is the vehicle that tells me all I need to know. The inability to string thoughts or spell speaks to a very childish level of social functioning.
On the other hand it brought up a feeling I get no where with, the umbilical cord wrapped around my neck, and the thought I need to be still and not struggle.
But the adult me says I survived it when it was in real time, and I won’t let it allow myself to be tricked into a state of powerlessness.
The take I have has been formed by a lot of study and experience and the education and experience of a lot of highly academically qualified people I know I can trust. They and course work in advanced statistics taught me the value of thinking.
See, that’s where you live Phil, in the place of reptile brain nasty. That s what you show of yourself. Name calling is the lowest denominator. Go for the throat or dress it up it’s visible.
Sound like my two surviving children at age 9 and 6 trying to achieve dominance in the relationship . When does it degenerate into, ” Mommy, David’s being mean ?”
David, I haven’t called you any names. It is your righteous attitude in the discussion which bothers. Obviously there are many others with decades of experience who think vaccines are a good thing. Many people I have worked with and studied under. But I do respect that you have a different opinion. The only thing I did say is that you come across to me as a “know it all”, an expert on many subjects. Meaning I must totally agree with you. Even you recommend some organization we should join. What’s up with that? Phil
The work of the Institutes which I tossed out as, look at what they do, I thought might be of interest because they heal severe child brain injuries, There is some overlap with Primal Theory.
My nature is to never poke anything down anyone’s throat. But I have over the years become more comfortable with what I believe.
I find the ganging up on Patrick unsettling. And predictably Margaret jumped to your side to say , ” Good , give it to him.”
I stopped the unequal expectation that I should always be nice and always make excuses for those who were not nice towards me. I wish them no ills but I chose not to associate with them.
“And above all, being conscious means treating people and our children humanely so that they grow up enhancing the culture, not destroying it.” Dr Arthur Janov.
That what I believe is, to you, “.. shit into a fan,” and worth just that, ” shit,” I’m a know it all, full of shit. You could not be striking further from the truth. And really doesn’t matter. But how would that be a help to anyone ? I had enough of that abuse from my family of origin.
David, My comment about “shit into a fan” was in reference to what I think about most conspiracy theories, if you read it. My point is that those kinds of theories and accusations are easy to make, but much harder to prove. And they easily spread around. I think you have been personally insulting to me, saying I’m not intuitive, I guess because I don’t agree with you, also that I’m not worth much, for the same reason. Maybe these particular topics hit close to home for you and are triggering. Is that what it is? Otherwise it’s hard for me to understand. Phil
Conspiracy theories is a matter of opinion except the obviously whacky ones. There are particularly astute minds who question the spoon feeding we often get. Over a career span of 50 years I have had the good fortune to be in the company of many of them as a listener. Just because a dominant group that controls the message asserts their interpretation is the right one doesn’t make it so.
I could postulate many maybe’s, perhaps’s, but I’d be only guessing; my family certainly played the game of me having a vivid imagination or inventing mal treatment when I confronted them or told someone.
Being an unknown to people who seem to know each other well, I identified me by my life experiences. Perhaps that was unnecessary. I don’t call doctors, doctor, that is what they do not who they are. I never felt comfortable with anyone addressing me by anything but my given name. Titles appeared ostentatious and conceited to me.
Patrick is fair game for anyone and everyone. Everyone can attack, and he is supposed to take it or be grateful; whatever; and then overlook it. But he’s held to the letter for what he says,or what someone thinks he says. Jack, too, is disrespected at times about his interpretation of Primal Theory. I read his book, a few times, and it appears he has a good handle on it.
I am at a familiar point right now where I lose the thread of argument; stop trying to justify, own up; I’m in trouble again and if I don’t be quiet I’ll be in worse trouble, shut down, comply, disappear.
So I’m going to sign off.
Patrick knows I am unequivocally certain about Primal Theory and that Dr. Janov is owed a great debt for beginning the therapy. I also think and have expressed it is Dr. Janov’s failure that Primal Therapy is not available in every private and publicly funded mental health service in the modern world. Neither Dr. Janov nor Patrick has tried to eviscerate me for my opinions
A lot he says seems a lot more real than some here.
>
> Patrick,
> you are such a hypocrite, so it is all just honest wellmeaning interest in vaccinations that brought you to out of the blue lashing out at me, just when I was so very sad about my cat, accusing me completely unrightfully for ‘having tortured’ her, wishing me I’d really feel like crap, and that I’d feel extremely guilty, etc.
>
> it is not about the vaccines, and not about the cat even, it is about you, and your need to dominate and be admired, and the nasty anger you acct out when people don’t bend to your (crazy) ways of thinking.
>
> David, before you form an opinion, please go back a few months and read how this all came along.
>
> Gretchen knows me for many years, and stated on this very blog what a good ‘mommy’ I had been for my cat from the very start, and backed me up completely in all what happened.
>
> it is such a shame what actually was a story of connection and care, that it got so distorted by this sick and crazy hateful person to fit his own need to be the victim, poor victim of me unrightfully feeling attacked, ha, it would be funny if it would not be so very very sick.
>
> somehow this is not about vaccinations, but probably about fear for closeness and hatred to anyone expressing what Patrick refers to as ‘weakness’..
>
> I probably should not post this as in my opinion all Patrick wants is attention, and this is more than he deserves, but oh well, I don’t give a f really, whatever anyone says to him, it is useless as every time it gets too close to a painful truth, he chickens out from looking at himself.
>
> it is all about vaccines, is it, and about being interested in it, but when Phil offers a genuine forum about it ha, you are such a pathetic phony, Patrick.
>
> if you’d be honest, I would not mind you being scared or angry or whatever, but you are not, and that is one thing I can’t come up with any excuse for, specially as you combine being a coward with being mean.
> so again, goodbye Patrick, I do not buy any of your shit.
> M
Quote “Gretchen knows me for many years, and stated on this very blog what a good ‘mommy’ I had been for my cat from the very start, and backed me up completely in all what happened”
First off just because Gretchen ‘said’ it does not make it true. People ‘say’ all kinds of things and it also based on what they are told You look for support and comfort better look at your ‘results’ before you repeat them again.
How soon until we will hear about ‘cat suits’ and ‘creams’ and ‘shots’…………….you are really good at lashing out at me I see very little looking at your own results
And you now want to make it seem I was piling on on you at your moment of grief NO quite a bit before that I was questioning all you were doing with the cat.
And then you went and KILLED it……………that was some kind of final straw for me. You KILLED your beloved cat quit all your re-writing of history about your moment of grief. You did it yourself
Now you ask Jack and Larry how they are doing……………..looking for more ‘support’ maybe? And you can “Goodbye” me all you like it does not make me go away. I know it’s a primaller habit to cut people off …………….not a good habit at all but somehow justified in the kind of inverted reality a lot of them deal in…………….
> by the way, Jack, are you ok? it has been a while since you wrote here.
> and Larry, how are you? does the medication still make you feel better?
> M
Margaret: Thanks for your concern about me, but other than slowly dying (aren’t we all) I’m surviving reasonable well. The reason for not responding recently, there was little that “tickled my fancy” … other than Patrick’s vague reference to someone, then not saying what or who and using far more words than it would have taken to write who he was referring to. I consider that redundant … but then I figure Patrick loves to put things off, to the point that it will get forgotten … hence no reason to explain himself … I suspect
According Thouless, that’s a manner of “crooked thinking” (not to say that I myself am not prone to the same syndrome).
One question for you Margaret, whilst I’m at it. Does your software for reading/listening to comments give/describe to you those smiley or sad “emoticons”? My reason for asking was I thought to place on the blog for you and others some of the emoticons … for amusement. I find them great … meaning that a picture can replace a “thousand words’. Also it will give me an idea what WordPress accepts and what it does not.
Feeling better Margaret. Symptoms almost gone for now. Making a priority of getting exercise and building strength back up. Saw a naturopathic doctor today to help me in my objective, and to maybe get some idea where I went off the rails and hopefully forestall a recurrence or ongoing symptoms. It’s nice to have an experienced, trained, informed partner on the same wavelength as me to help me through this.
I have some personal ideas as to how I could live my life in a more healthy manner, one being to occupy myself less on the computer and more in other aspects of life. I can sometimes use the computer too much like a drug that eases the pain of loneliness at the expense of not addressing the loneliness.
The loss of Noreen caused me grievous injury, and there is more hurt yet to deal with, but I have a sense that I’m entering an acceptance and regrouping phase, a readiness to accept the brutality of losing her and to want to make the most of what I have left. This health scare is almost like a small encapsulation of how losing her shattered me but if I can address the root causes of the pain I have a chance to heal somewhat from it and perhaps reshape my life into something still worthwhile to me.
She died unexpectedly 5 1/2 years ago. She’s the only deep real connection I ever had with someone. I was a pretty emotionally crippled guy when I started therapy, and still wonder now how I will make it without her, but am moving forward.
I don’t feel hard done by, David. There are a lot of people who life isn’t fair to. I’m not looking for sympathy, just understanding. If your guts are in a knot for me, that tells me you have a lot of personal stuff to deal with.
One human caring for the suffering of another is not valid in and of itself ??
I agree my vault of stuff is vast. Your loss obviously trigger my own. Thank you
I don’t believe that becoming embroiled in someone else’s suffering is useful to anyone in the long run. I think empathy, understanding and support to help work through and out of the suffering is helpful, but the sufferer is really ultimately on their own in having to work through it. I appreciate you caring, David.
“And above all, being consciousness means treating people and our children humanely so that they grow up enhancing the culture, not destroying it.” Dr. Arthur Janov.
I agree, Larry. One of the gifts I received from Primal Therapy was being better able to separate my feelings from those of others. It improved my professional practice, let me more comfortably to be there for others, and circumvented the burnout from, ” becoming embroiled in the feelings of others.”
Clearly my parasympath innate personality made looking after others, and remaining invisible, a comfortable fit. Looking after myself equally as well was abandoned. It is still foreign to me and the reason for many of my circumstances.
.
I notice you are an intelligent, capable guy. Makes me wonder why after all this time you are in somewhat dire circumstances. Your statement that you have difficulty looking after yourself explains a lot to me.
My pension plan got, ” raped,” by our Canada Life Administrator. Unbeknown to us Canada Life was convicted of frequent trading in a Toronto court. In 2001 I received a cheque from the Ontario Securities and Exchange Commission for $ $48.62. I inquired of our Director what it represented. He’s a good guy, but has a record of giving answers without being informed. He said it was a small dividend that for some reason could not be rolled back into the pension plan and joked, cash it and go to dinner. I learned a year later about the legal action, and then that by cashing the cheque I had given up all entitlement to any further legal recourse. My plan into which 1/3 + of a million dollars had been deposited was worth $ 128,000.00 when I retired. In Nova Scotia provincial regulations lock in registered pension funds and determine how much can be withdrawn annually. I am permitted $ 5,120.88 per year. My own fault, I should have been monitoring my account. I knew earlier retired staff received more than 40 k a year and concluded that would be my pension. Stupid guy I am. If I had 10 mill I’d likely give it away anyhow.
In 2002 myself and 4 other senior staff became extremely ill from multiple toxin exposure, asbestos, sewer gas, stack gas and a host of molds. Our group life policy provided for Disability payments. We consulted a lawyer who concluded an employer negligence action against the agency would fail.
> my cat already was ill with an auto-immune disease when I got her as a kitten.
> without treatment she’d have died, in a painful way, but a very dedicated vetrinary clinic helped to find a way to get control over the disease, and we had almost ten fine years together, before she suddenly got ill the last few months, only three.
> even during those months, the ‘torture’ of the care I gave her, with the help and advice of the vets and their dermatologist, were actually creating a very deep bond of trust between me and my cat, who always allowed me to treat her, and more so, stretched out her neck as to facilitate me putting on the (natural) cream.
>
> for three months I dedicated all my energy to try to save her, and those were beautiful months despite of being exhausting as well.
>
> my only priority was for the cat to feel ok, not to feel ill or scared, to feel safe.
>
> you say I ‘killed’ her only because she got diabetes, that is a distortion of how it was.
>
> she had a wound in her neck, hterefor the creams and the protective suit, and two shots of antibiotics.
> the medication the vets prescribed against the severe allergy and autoimmune reaction, normally would have worked, and then a urine sample finally showed why she kept losing weight and why the wound, despite healing on one side, kept slowly spreading to the other side.
> she had developed diabetes, indeed probably as a result of ten years of allergy medication.
> regularly I had tried to dinimish and stop giving it, but the only way turned out to be to give her a small daily doses.
>
> but that allowed her to live ten happy years.
> finding out about the diabetes on top of the other problems, made it clear to the vets, and to me, the cat would only get really ill, and start to suffer.
> now she was just on that point where she was starting to feel bad some of the time.
> the last weeks she peed on the couch and on the bed, sometimes three times in one night, but I was never cross at her, simply changed the sheets and washed and washed, sheets, blankets, couch covers, and comforted the cat.
>
> I was glad to do so for as long as it took to make her better, but the verdict of the added diabetes closed of that possibility.
>
> trying to cure the diabetes with daily blood taking and shots would really have been a crazy form of torture in this case, with no chance and a lot of suffering for the cat.
>
> saving her that meaninigless suffering and al the fear, saving her another trip home for a few more weeks just for my own peace of mind, and then probably having to take her again to the clinic, while she would be miserable and scared, would have been utterly selfish.
>
> we were there for the urine sample, not having expected the goodbye would already be for that day, although the last weeks I had spent a lot of time just sitting on my balconee with the cat on my lap, feeling it was the harvest of her life, and sharing the beauty of our affection for each other.
> am crying right now.
>
> all your nasty interpretations do not affect the deep and true feeling I have of having done what is right, of having had a truely loving bond with my cat, that was mutual, and only got deeper those last difficult months.
> so she sat on my lap at the vet’s, trusting me,and when the vet said she truely felt euthanasia would be the right thing to do, for the cat’s sake, she only confirmed what I had felt coming for weeks, but now with a clear diagnosis, that gave no room for hope to make her better, on the contrary.
>
> my priority was to save my cat from being scared, at all cost, so her this time being quietly on my lap, offered a way to make the extrelenly painful decision of having to let her go, in the most peaceful way possible, her remaining on my lap, one shot to gently put her to sleep, still in my arms, and the second and final shot only after she was completely gone, but still while I was holding her.
>
> it was the most loving hting to do for my cat, the most respectful one, she deserved it, and I would want the same thing in her place.
>
> actually being very ill, I once asked my own mother if she’d help me with wuthanasia if iI’d get worse, and she promised me to help me when I would come to that point.
>
> that felt like the biggest expression of her love she ever gave to me, and immediatly apeased my mind on that very moment.
>
> all your explanations about vaccinations contain truth, but are really beside the poijnt in htis case, as the cat was already vaccinated when I got her as a kitten.
>
> and anyway, I have merely done what was the best thing I could do with the knowledge I had and with the advice and assistance of several dedicated vets.
> my last vet, the dermatologist, cried when she gave my cat the last injection. she too had really done all she could all that time.
>
> so regardless of what is right or wrong about vaccinations, you just used it as an excuse to hurt me, as I was not even part of the pro or con and merely listening.
> I even mentioned I had adressed my vet about it, and she had agreed there is overvaccination now, and a lot of them go against that.
>
> so this is the reality of the situation, which you refer to as me ‘torturing’ and ‘killing’m my cat, picturing me as some kind of monster.
>
> i have no idea why you tried to hurt me, out of the blue, apart from maybe being triggered by all the stories of concern and caring.
>
> you wrote on several occasions how scared you are of closeness, but that is no excuse whatsoever to try and really hurt people here that show their vulnerability and talk about love.
>
> you have done so with others in the past, calling them ‘weaklings’, well, I only see one of those here, a very bitter one too.
> M
Margaret – that is a good explanation of all that happened. Of course you know an awful lot more about it than me…………………..so I accept what you say here.
On the other hand I was making more ‘general’ points and I feel you take them very ‘personally’ but hey nobody’s perfect not even me lol………….
> Jack,
> lately I noticed my software mentioning ‘smiling face with open mouth and tightly closed eyes’, or ‘face with neutral mouth’, or ‘frowning face’, for example..
>
> they add a little, but I actually prefer words that express the feeling somehow..
> but well, I am curious to hear more emoticons being described, smiley..
> M
Speaking of using ‘failure’ as some mark of ‘moral weakness’ hers is something from Janov’s blog a few weeks ago. Any comments of mine in brackets
“I have no desire to hang onto some concocted theory that I adore.(oh no??)If it does not make the patient better then why hang onto it? (Why indeed – that’s what a lot of us have been wondering??) This is largely what happened to all those therapists who wanted to improve on our theory. (Your own or others?? They added drugs to the mix, then hypnosis, then cognitive and so on ad nauseam. All because they never saw the central truth of feeling. (Intellectual failure) And, I assume, because they never underwent their own feelings” (Slam……………..moral failure……………case proved except not just a cult leader insisting he knows it all)
What is interesting here is he seems be referring to some of his OWN ‘therapists’ though that is not completely clear (deliberate?)………….but what I notice it is not enough to ‘disagree’ with them though we can only assume if they were trying to ‘improve’ the therapy they must have felt it NEEDED improving…………….but the last sentence is the classic primal slam the slam that is just a disguised personal insult and only has power if you accept his own kind of formulations………….and the kind of cheap shot slam practiced by primal true believers. it is some moral failure they could not get to their feeling blah blah. And this seems to be applied at least partly to his own therapists the ones who dared to think they could ‘improve’ on what he was doing. How could you improve on something to quote Jack is not only mankind’s greatest ever discovery but the greatest discovery that WILL EVER be made. Note the foreclosjing of the future itself which is not surprising if you only ‘see’ backwards or do other major things in life ‘backwards’ Jack to quote Dr Phil ‘how has that worked out for you’??
I have explained this story repeatedly.
> stil, in the middle of my grieving, you spoke about my torturing the cat, and how you hoped I would feel extremely guilty and that I would feel like crap, if you think people should not take stuff like that personally you are even crazier than I thought, or a hundred times blinder than I am.
> once more you brush off responsability and avoid looking at yourself and your true underlying motivs for your behavior.
>
> so be it, I merely wanted to give a bit of reality to David, who has missed a lot of the preambles.
>
> don’t know why I still bother really, me talking about my mother bothered you, me talking about my cat does, anything that is not about you and how smart you are seems to do so.
> your constant need to patronize and then bully people who don’t buy it, well, as the song goes it don’t impress me much.
> nothing more to say about it, as it is always more of the same.
> M
Oyy. I spent way too much time on the computer tonight. The consolation is I do find writing on this blog and interacting with you all to be a worthwhile learning and growing experience.
I’ve experienced a friend from the past ceasing to contact me with no explanation, and last night I dreamed that we met and I tried to get answers from her. The dream story becomes less clear, and I feel every thing she is saying makes it my fault. I wake up feeling suicidal. I feel that I somehow make everyone leave me in real life, there is no hope (for full healthy close relationships). As I write I cry…it’s my parents I see leaving me..and leaving me with the feeling I’ve done something wrong, it’s my fault.
I described the old feeling there. Now that I’m away from that, it is so that in real, current life, I feel more connection with people I meet now, than a few years ago, having done a lot of work in therapy. The feeling that it’s my fault gets in the way a lot, but I try not to act on it. I have much more of my self back!
That seems like such an important insight. I know how hard you worked to get there, Jo. And I’m struck by a difference in you in that you’ve shared these two paragraphs, when in the past you’d only write a couple of words if anything.
> David,
> you say you like this blog as you learn a lot from the interaction.
> maybe you could go back then and see it was actually you startin off with the insults, and not Phil. you were the one coming up with the comparison about only sheep following the carpetbaggers,which immediately struck me as offensive.
>
> what you blame phil for, about dominance, feels like sheer projection to me, as on this I feel you and Patrick have a lot in common.
>
> I know I amnot gonna be liked for saying this, but well, this is how it comes across to me
>
> what you said about Phil is out of line, believe me, , and tells me more about you than about him.
>
> and before you ask me why I care, I know him and respect him, and well, feel you are very judgamental and rude too much of the time, which I don’t like.
> can’t do much about it, but it seems to explain why you make so much efforts to side up with Patrick.
>
> oh well, now I probably have two ennemis here, can live with that, won’t keep me from saying what I feel like saying.
> Phil, I liked all you said.
> seems like we have two persons intending to shove their opinions down our throats now, hammering away and insulting everyone that shows disagreement of any kind.
> M
Not much to say Margaret but to an outsider it seems judgmental is a common feature here common here. And encampments. So it’s ok for one cliche to say another is full of shit, but an answer to that is unacceptable ??
Oh, I didn’t say I was learning anything here, Margaret; Jack was so kind as to send me his book and I like it. Reading people in feeling is of value. Occasionally reading another’s process in the old Primal Newsletter would bring up a feeling. I enjoyed following Institute therapists I respect. I do have questions though as why well primaled people continue to need to participate in lashing out at others and note that it will not be tolerated from some, followed by piling on.. ” And above all, being conscious means treating people and our children humanely so that they grow up enhancing the culture, not destroying it.” Arthur Janov.
Most days, I have no need to answer back. On the day that something hurts me I do. Primal gave me back the right to feel.
,” sheep following carpet baggers, ” refers to the public, including me being influenced by the marketers who have something to sell. My study indicates that the pharmaceutical industry is also one of those, creating their, ” truths, ” to prompt panic and compliance.
> David,
> of course you can’t help only getting a partial view of the situation, having joined us recently.
> I can assure you there is no ganging up against Patrick going on, everyone here is actually wellmeaning and basically nice.
> we all gave Patrick a lot of support, for years now, but literally everyone was insulted by him, with no apparent reasons, or even viciously attacked, including the therapists and the therapy in general.
> so what you perceive as ganging up is just the sum of individual responses to what I could call a provocative and very hurtful attitude Patrick regularly shows, and which he consistently refuses to take responsibility for.
> but he is good at adopting the victim role, I must admit.
>
> like you I only try to react when I feel angry or hurt enough, or something deifinitely seems not right.
>
> we all tend to look through the coloured glasses of our unresolved old feelings, but if I may say, try not to form your opinions about people here too quickly please.
> you seem to have a certain view about how I am that seems more to depend on your past experiences with unpleasant women, than actually with who I am, as really you hardly know anything about me, but have repeatedly made some negative or sarcastic remarks.
> just mentioning, no big deal.
> M
Margaret, I’m not going to be affrontive. We are all as , ” good, ” as we can be. Most of my best friends are women, and I work in volunteer work now mostly with women. I am constantly posting that we need to tap into the wealth of women intellect and intelligence in the political sphere, because men, well… And I know they see me as, ” … just the sweetest man.”
I have an intuitive thing, the worst thing about intuition and guessing is I have at least a 100% chance of being wrong. But it’s there. And sometimes it goes off when it senses manipulative behaviour, or pack behaviour, and it brings up a feeling in me. Some percentage of that belongs to the past I am sure.
Happy times to you.
This is apropos of nothing…………..well not actually. I was listening to KPFK this morning and the subject was – guess what vaccines. They are at the point of passing a new law here which dis-allows any ‘personal exemption’ that a parent might want to claim vis a vis their child like they would say ‘I don’t believe in vaccines please don’t vaccinate my child’ Anyway the new law if passed would do away with that exemption so then the child has to be up to speed with all vaccinations or he/she can’t be at school. or day care or whatever
But what I found interesting is the guy there who is now an ‘activist’ explained how he got involved. He had a son, born seemingly fine, no problems smiling happy communicative etc ‘Ahead’ of his peers even in any development tests they did. He is a new parent they are anxious to do everything right but somehow have maybe already missed some vacc’s so at 5 MONTHS yes 5 months they go in to get ‘caught up’ with vacc. Child is given several vacc’s that evening is screaming constantly, crying all the time but worse having epileptic fits. This goes on for days they get some medication to calm him down. He seems to come out of it seems to be close to being his old self
They still want to do everything ‘right’ so they go in to see their child doctor. Tell her they want to go slow with the vacc. tell her they are concerned and afraid and want to wait until the child is say a year old before they give him any more. Says the doctor kind of reads them the riot act, they are ‘endangering’ their child etc sort of ‘threaten’ them. Again though not convinced him and his wife want to do the ‘right’ thing in spite of their instincts and well unfortunately you can maybe guess what happened.
Child goes into uncontrollable and constant epileptic fits. Goes on and on hundreds a day and has not stopped since. The child is 13 now and a total lost case, mental ability of a 6 month old etc constantly suffering especially the fits.
Anyway so what you might say……………….but I just had a ‘connection’ I have seen so many of these TV programs over the years about children with constant fits. These programs typically were about medical marijuana and how it helped to reduce the fits, calm them down etc etc. These parents are very motivated to get the right kind of marijuana not the kind that get’s you stoned there is another kind instead of THC it has a different kind of oil
Anyway my ‘connection’ was now……………..THAT’S very likely the culprit in these fits vaccination that is. I have kind of idly wondered WHY are these children having this horrendous problem, presumably they were not born with ‘fits’ what happened to cause it………………..I believe I know mostly now what the reason is. Big deal you might say but I think it is…………..
“If you are dealing with inflammation then get a comprehensive evaluation to look at what is perpetuating your personal fire.
Lifestyle: Remove adverse mechanisms (Stress, Over-exercising, Poor Sleep, Blood Sugar Dysregulation, Poor Social Behaviors.) Lifestyle factors are huge, the stress response triggers immune marker IL6 which turns on the immune pathway TH17 which is the fast track to Autoimmunity.
Lifestyle: Restore beneficial mechanisms: Create conditions of love & appreciation, keep positive attitudes, maintain proper exercise (training to a maximum heart range; i.e. Peak Fitness exercises), have adequate sleep, restore blood sugar balance, and facilitate healthy social interactions. All these things promote natural systemic opioids which pushes the immune pathway TH3 which reduces Autoimmunity.
Dietary Support: Stabilize blood sugar, remove food Autoimmune triggers, and promote intestinal integrity with proper flora and nitric oxide and glutathione pathways. Include fermented foods and supplement appropriately as may be needed.”
I’m not doing so good in the “create conditions of love and appreciation” department. I’m getting nowhere with that. When it comes to ‘facilitate healthy social interactions’ I’m in a deep, dark valley. I’m crying. My childhood was in the black. My need for conditions of love and appreciation and healthy social interactions came up against immovable cold granite.
There is nothing here for me. I’m too alone. I feel doubtful I have the strength or ability to change it. This therapy is awful because it can’t fix it. I don’t know which way to go with my life. No matter where I turn, the way looks empty.
Awful as it is, it’s a relief to let myself cry and see there was nothing all those years when I was small and helpless, my childhood needs met by cold granite. My ability to create conditions of love and appreciation is severely stunted. I sense that deep connection with someone would improve my life and health dramatically, but feels like an impossible dream. This empty, lonely void feels impossible to get out of, and not worth living.
How could I have endured it as a child! I guess I didn’t. I guess I lost some of me, lost part of my consciousness, so I could exist and hope things got better. My consciousness is tortuously awakening now, acknowledging what I needed but never got. Now I have to tap into truth, into reality, into more me to learn how to take better care of myself. I’m all I’ve got now. I had a lucky streak for a couple of decades with Noreen in my life. Couldn’t have made it this far without her. Wonder whether this is as far as it goes.
Larry, It sounds like you’re in a real difficult spot. I hope you’ll be able to fix things the way you want them. Just a few more weeks until the retreat, I look forward to seeing you there Phil
It’s not the sobbing that needs to be stopped, but all the anger, hate and venom.
The sadness and any accompanying tears are relatively harmless to all … except those that subliminally are triggered by their own sadness and grief and refuse to express it by way of tears.
The ultimate of repressed anger is violence … which eventually lead to wars. BUT we neurotic human are reluctant to grasp that. Que lastima.
Barry told me about John Sarno’s book “healing back pain”, back in 2002 ish, when I had excruciating pain in my lower back..I had to rest in bed most of the time and it just didn’t improve. The book helped tremendously, in fact I was ‘cured’!
Larry postings got me remembering all this, (and we talked about it yesterday).
It’s a worthwhile approach, IMO, and I’ve just bought the latest book “Pathways to Pain Relief” – 21 Jan 2013 by MD John E. Sarno. The forward itself is worth reading.
Hello, Jo; searched Sarno and found 4 books, the last published in 2006, The Epidemic of Mind Body Disorders. If you’d be so kind, What is the title of your edition and the ISBN #. Thank you
david
David, the title is exactly as I wrote it above; I bought it on Amazon UK. Ive no idea what the ISBN is. Having ordered it, it lets you read a few pages via cloud (I have the Kindle app).
If Barry says Sarno is a credible read that’s good enough for me.
When I went to the free download site I found testimonials, like Jo’s; this one to Dr Sarno’s latest book, ” The Divided Mind. The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders.”
“My Mother died last year. We didn’t have a good relationship. I was at the grocery store this week trying not to see all the people buying Mother’s Day flowers, cards , and gifts. Is it a coincidence that I was in my bed crying on Mother’s Day – using my Ten’s unit for the pain? I already knew that I had a lot of unresolved issues with myself and my life, but I really thought I was getting them nicely under control. ( under control, bury the feelings and burn the map therapy… david’s brackets.)
Because of “The Divided Mind” I feel a weight has been lifted off of me.
I will be buying a hard copy of Dr. Sarno’s book. This is an abridged version – I want to read every word.
I know I sound insane. I remember seeing John Stossel on 20/20 saying Dr. Sarno cured his back pain. At the time I thought it was the power of suggestion.
Well- I definitely suggest you give this book a chance to change your life. What do you have to loose – except your pain?
I don’t care if the pain comes back. I feel empowered to deal with it.
Happy Mother’s Day – I have to go have a conversation with my brain now.”
This is a danger zone for me. That next book , the one that has the head trip magic word I can utter and I’ll be healed. Weird instead of the old feeling of exhilaration about another new chance I’m filled with dispiar, streming hot taers, and th at thing wrapped aroud my neck
Jo: I read the introduction to the book “Mind Over Back Pain”. by Dr. John E. Samos and had a few observations of my own.
In brief:- my own history relative to the said ‘syndrome:-
In my early 20’s I started a “Voice Training Class” in order to pursue my ambition to become an actor. These classes strayed from the excepted norms of voice training in that it was all based on diaphragmatic breathing for the EMOTION. The man that thought it all up was Irish named Herbert Scott. Sadly; among the Drama Schools of the time no-one took up his method.
After gaining access to “the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London I was recommended by a fellow actor to the Frederick Maithers Alexander Technique clinic in London. He, Alexander was asked if anyone could learn his technique by merely reading his book “The Use of the Self”. He claimed “Yes; providing that one could read” A very provocative statement. I went for session for over one year. It’s main principle was a head, neck, back, relationship due to poor child rearing habits. I greatly benefited from this technique, and to this very day and at age 82 still do not have a belly. No six pack abs, as of the last few years but certainly a straight back, neck and head that has never given me any back or shoulder pain, or ensuing migraines.
Last week on the PBS TV channel I encountered a woman (who’s name eludes me as of now) who was discussing to her audience the need for good posture with respect to health.
All those methods and techniques in my life have contributed to my physical health. Then in 1973 I read Arthur Janov and ever since I feel I have finally connected all the dots to what I feel now, is real health. Not that I have perfected any one of them … as yet !!!!
In reading Dr. John E. Sarnos’ introduction I agree that he found a cause … but NOT the reason for the cause. To and for me Janov was, and is, the only one that went into the total history demonstrating where and why it all took place in the first place. I feel the medical profession as a whole (though slowly getting closer to ‘the reason for the cause) is:- to quote Janov; is only interested in the symptoms and thence looking for cures. I do feel that Dr. Sarnos went a little deeper, but (by my reckoning) not far enough. I contend that the trauma of childhood and or womb-hood creates what is commonly know as “slouching” All the above methods and techniques attempt to rectify that slouch, but fail to go to the real fundamental cause of WHY it all took place in the first place … though I do not doubt that any one of the methods and techniques mentioned, can bring about relief. Whether that can become a permanent state of affairs, is perhaps questionable.
I’m glad the Alexandra Technique helped you Jack.
John Sarno’s Healing back pain book certainly helped me. He does actually acknowledge the source of rage.
His last book, ” The Divided Mind. The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders,” further evolves his thoughts. Very forthright on how medicine has missed the boat. Janov comments, “Appropriately enough, Sarno correctly recognizes the feeling component of this early repressed material ,( pain manifestations,) is typically severe early rage in, “The Divided Mind – The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders.”,
David: I have not read any further of Sornos’ works, so I am not cognoscente of the development of his thoughts. What is somewhat distressing to me, is that all these new theories, without recognizing the previous works by others. I find it more than a little disconcerting that there are many that use other peoples work and theories without acknowledging their (others) prior work. Maybe for several reasons, but to promote a theory that has already been delineated shows the lack of learning and perhaps an attempt to cash in on a prior theory, tweaking it to appear ones own.
Janov, as I read him, did not do that, and acknowledged Freud, and Reich. That to me was honest. It was my critique of Stone in “Cure by Crying”. He acknowledged the existence of Janov without acknowledging his work, theory and/or research. That happens a great deal in the world of science … principally, as I see it, to reap profit for themselves. For me, the reason:- unless and until we abolish capitalism … we’ll continue down this destructive route .. until our very own destruction … and perhaps of all life on the planet. It is “PROFIT” that is evil … and unnecessary, to my way of thinking.
Apparently, Dr. Sarno, born 1923, Professor of Rehabilitative Medicine New York School of Medicine; developed his theory in the late 50’s early sixties and wrote papers in the early 70’s; 1st book,82. His work and theory was not welcomed nor accepted into practice by 99.99% of doctors he said.
The testimonials are impressive. Help is help wherever it comes from. I get more than a little more interested, too, when the establishment trolls come after someone the same as they have Dr. Janov and Primal Theory over the years. Dr. Sarno has released the 4 books to free downnloads, but the Divided Minds download has been abridged by the publisher, so I’m going to order the book.
I find this comment pretty ironic. Janov wrote the book on claiming how ‘unique’ or ‘new’ his theories were. Then he wrote another ‘book’ not allowing anyone to take from him, co-operate with him etc etc. Hence his irrelevance among the general public and the scientific community. Which is a great pity I think as his ‘theory’ had it’s good points but just not as good or as ‘unique’ as he seemed to and amazingly still seems to think I guess kettles call pots black all the time. The nature of a kettle ?
Janov ‘borrowed’ liberally from all around him but tried to put HIS stamp on it all. So R D Laing or Carl Rodgers or Abraham Maslow or whomever were NOWHERE according to him and then he could not even seem to co-operate with his own ‘followers’ or even his own ‘therapist’s’ if we follow his recent blog. He is an interesting case of someone who could not seem to find his place either with what came before and came after.But then he was ‘neurotic’ and I would agree from my own experience that is a deep problem. Still if he was just ‘honest’ about that a lot of problems would have been avoided. But ‘honest’ is not something i would ever call Janov. To me he has a VERY low bar in the ‘honesty’ department. Which is a big problem in any walk of life.
I find it ‘rich’ that you of all people refer to the “kettle calling the frying pan black”. I read all those psychiologist that came after Freud … but none (to my way of reckoning) made a great discovery and formulated a theory that encompased it. They formed a theory and developed a practice around it … without, I might add, making any discoveery. Merely an idea … in their heads.
You ‘read’ all those psychologists that came after Freud.?? My guess would be it would be more ‘honest’ to say you read none of them. Have you read R D Laing or Maslow or Rodgers? But I think one reason you ‘adore’ Janov is you see yourself in him…………………..maybe starting with a big lack of honesty Second would be seeing yourself/him as an ‘undiscovered genius’ third and related to second it nobody ‘get’s it’ but you and him. There are others but I don’t want to get too personal.
This business about ‘reading everything’ reminds me also how you said you ‘thoroughly investigated’ the whole basis of HIV medication……………again my memory/impression was you didn’t even read the label on the drug package or the insert even explaining the logic of those drugs. But you love to ‘create an impression’ of the thoughtful intellectual who at the same time is not a ‘head tripper’ (have it every which way which reminds me of your ‘hero’ also) so I could see one reason you would like blogging there is no checks of any kind and whatever you say is ‘true’. Except when it isn’t which seems to be most of the time
> on his visit here yesterday, my brother saw the big picture of me and my cat in the university magazine, and read the interview.
> when he heard I also have it on line, he asked me to e-mail him the link, and just now he sent me a mail telling me I should be proud of myself and of what I achieve despite the disability.
>
> his words mean so much to me, I was not sure about how he would react, with Primal therapy being talked about and everything, but we really grew so much closer together the last few years,it is heartwarming.
>
> our mom is getting older, increasing ailments and a very bad memory, but she goes about it rather gracefully most of the time.
> it is exhausting though, as she repeats the same questions over and over, and gets more and more deaf, so we have to yell the same stuff over and over without losing our patience and temper..
> but we agree on that we will do everything to keep her in the place she lives in now, a house from 1778 with a large garden and big trees around it, as she really loves plants and birds and squirrels and the donkey and carthorse in the back..
> she’d probably wither in a nursing home, and get in trouble because of her stubbornness and strong will, and occasional big mouth..
>
> but she does still make us smile regularly which is good.
> M
> i tried reading the pdf but failed to get into the text with my screenreader.
> but am pretty curious by now about Sarno, sorru if I misspell, and his approach of pain and how to heal it.
> can you, or Jo, who has actually applied it, maybe give me a (brief) summary of the approach he stands for, and how to deal with backpain etc?
> please?
> M
Margaret, it’s 13 years ago and I don’t have “healing back pain” any more to refer to…
Simply, though, find the rage in you to really rage at the pain.
Larry and David are saying that the latest book of John Sarno is “The divided mind”, which I may get.
Jo
It has been suggested that I never read any books about Psychology. I have no reason to lie, since I read psychology for pure interest … initially amazed that the mind could be introspective about itself. I had a friend, also interested in psychology and eventually got a degree and licence to practice. She was primarily a Jungian. I tried to turn her onto Janov and bought her a copy of “The Primal Scream” She was not convinced.
From my mid teens I was always concerned to better myself in life. It was perhaps what precipitated my initial interest in Psychology. However, in my mid twenties I was introduced to F.M. Alexander and took sessions and was greatly pleased with the results and my mother also acknowledged that it helped me. Since Alexander started his practice in 1925 (the time Dr. Sarnos was born) he certainly preceded anything that Sarnos came up with. Briefly:- his principle was the use of the self and the relationship of the body via head, neck and back … noting that he himself, and most others, slouched and lacked good posture. He refrained from using the word posture, as he felt it misled the natural position the body should take, and that it should be an effortless process. He termed that “None doing” and “Let it happen” meaning that if we gave the body a chance it would self rectify.
In or around 1966 I experienced a very deep and disturbing encounter after a penicillin injection at a London Clinic. I recounted that incident on both my books. I had no idea what it was and I knew the doctor in attendance at the time, also knew nothing about it, and appeared as scarred as I was on seeing me in that state. On reading the introduction to “The Primal Scream” some seven years later; it made total sense to me and from there-on-in I was a convert to Primal Therapy and Primal Theory. I re-lived an event in my very, very early childhood that felt I was dying, and believed I was indeed in the process of dying.
What I feel about psychotherapy in hindsight was that Freud was the very first to postulate a theory relating to what takes place in the mind. From my prior reading of most of the psychologist since Freud, I was convinced that none of the psychologist made a discovery. Janov, at the event with Danny Wilson; stated he had “no idea what had taken place” It was only after trying out what he’d done with Danny, on many other that he was eventually able to formulate a theory to encompass and explain what had taken place. The discovery came first. The practice on others and getting the same or similar results came next; only then did he, because of his 17 years of practiced in Freudian therapy, was able to formulate a theory. All the others I read, formed a theory first, then began a practice in the hopes of demonstrating the validity of their initial theory. Janov did it in reverse order. It is my contention that since the advent of Freud’s theory (Ego, ID, and Super Ego and later the “Interpretation of Dreams”), no other valid theory based on ‘experience and practice’ has been proposed, until Janov.
Of course, Freud was not the first to come up with the notion of studying the mind and mental illness. That goes back centuries.
Lastly I do acknowledge that through the internet and Wikipedia; it is easy to research the history of Psychology. I do confess to get the dates of the psychologists since Freud, I did resort to the internet.
Briefly:- the history since Freud; though not totally comprehensive:-
Freud Sigmund 1886 EGO: Self esteem or awareness of self ID: The subconsciousness of ones instincts SUPER EGO: Self absorbed, compulsiveness Early 20th century ‘Interpretation of dreams
Adler Alfred 1911 left Freud’s theory; to form his own school of thought, accusing Freud of overemphasizing sexuality
Jung 1913 The collective unconscious
Wilhelm Reich 24 March 1897 – 3 November 1957) The Orgone box, Character Analysis, and body armoring
Moreno Jacob L. 1921 – conducted the first large scale public Psychodrama session
Rogers Carl 1942 published Counseling and Psychotherapy,
Fritz Perls 1951 – The seminal work of “Gestalt Therapy:
Skinner B.F. 1953 – lending support for behavioral psychology .
Maslow Abraham Harold (1943) Hierarchy of needs
Ellis Albert 1955 – began teaching the methods of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.
Laing R. D. 1960 – published The Divided Self which saw mental illness as an expression or communication Stated that it should be parents that are punished for the actions of their children
Fromm Erich (Author of The Art of Loving) Meditation
Eric Berne 1964 “Games People Play”
Different subject but maybe a similar phenomenon: Christmas of 1995 my younger daughter brought home from University her then current big love. A really nice, bright kid, with the enormous advantage of that in addition to be doing graduate work he was a real ” Bluesman”, a very old soul in a young man’s body. I uncased a couple Strats and found I wasn’t even close to his league.
I decided to gift him with a wonderfully documented,” History of R & B and Rock ‘n’ Roll.” I, ahem, perused it for a week before wrapping.
I was taken that beginning in the early 50’s the same movement was occurring in New Zealand, Australia, Britain, the USA and Canada. No Internet, no, “Smart,” phones, AM Radio, no TV promotion in those early years and trade was not what it is today.
Yet what was essentially, ” Black Music,” birthed in the US was happening everywhere, among musicians who were unaware of what was happening on other continents.
Musicians feeling and thinking the same way without ever having talked to one another.
It opened up a new train of thought about possibilities regarding human evolution.
(Not always, because it seems very sophisticated, “Rap,” was happening in China 500 years ago.)
Jack, I don’t know why anyone would would assume you didn’t read psychology books.I like your brief history of the subject since Freud.I’ve read loads of psychology books myself. Not so much out of interest but as an attempt to get to the root of what was bothering me. When I was 21 and feeling suicidal I finally decided I should give the idea ofdoing some kind of therapy a chance instead of killing myself. I happened to get a hold of a copy of”The Primal Scream”. It made a big impact on me and I reread it over and overa countless number of times..Then I went to the local library and spent many hours there comparing primaltherapy as described in the book, to every other method I came across in otherbooks. I probably read all of the books on clinical psychology in the library,not necessarily cover to cover, but focusing on points which seemed importantto me. Nothing else but primal made much sense to me. I didn’t see how focusing onmy thoughts could change them and I didn’t see how trainingnot to be anxious would work, for example. Freudian based therapies didn’t have anyappeal either. I came across “Going Sane” by the founders of The Centerfor Feeling Therapy and I gave that book particular attention, as I remember it,but it didn’t seem sensible either. Primal therapy seemed to offer the onlychance of achieving the level of change I thought I needed. I imagined myselfbasically becoming a totally different person with the therapy. I was really crazy because I made the decision to do primal therapy solely based onwhat I read in books. I didn’t discuss the decision with even one person. In fact, I never even told anyone that I had a lot of things bothering me.Asking for help from anyone I knew was out of the question for somereason. I just wasn’t something I did. I didn’t talk to anyone at the Institute. I sent in my biography, got accepted,signed some papers, and committed myself. I was able to pay for it with the moneyI earned working during high school. I didn’t need to ask for something from anyone. I was very lucky that there was the New York Institute close by, otherwise it probably wasn’t going to happen for me at that time. I think it would have been too muchfor me to try to get it together to go to LA.I’ve continued to do a lot of reading since then on psychology, but I read a lot ingeneral. It’s, no doubt, one of my defenses, how I distract myself and have doneit since childhood. Phil
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 21:52:48 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil; Very impressive story on your rout to therapy. Yes, I too find it a little er … condescending that one would insist that I never read any books on psychology. However, I do see it as a problem for the person stating it. Surely; I am my own best person to know my own history. But I am not overtly bothered by it. I like that about myself … even though it might be because of my own conceit.
It did occur to me writing that comment, I was stating what most already knew. but hey hoo; I wanted to write it, if only for myself. If there was some defensiveness on my part … so-be-it. I’m not perfect … yet 🙂 or maybe 😦 .
I used to do a great deal of reading, but for some reason unknown to me, I have since taken to blogging ever since getting into computers some 30 years ago on arriving in the US.
I didn’t ‘insist’ on anything just the statement that you read ‘all’ books on psychology since Freud is on the face of it ‘absurd’.Do you have any idea how many books that would be? I am pretty sure there are some major psychologists you have never HEARD of let alone read
A friend of mine who incidentally went through ‘primal’ is now working with something someone called John Bowbly came up with. (Attachment) I am not into that but there is a huge amount of work going on there. I was/am reacting to the kind of ‘intellectual posing’ which I see you doing……………….oh like I am some fine august British ‘intellectual’ and the next minute anytime anyone especially me has an ‘idea’ about anything…………..that’s a ‘head trip’. Which I see as more ‘British posing’ and fake superiority which you are also quite good at.
One minute you disdain any ‘researching’ of any kind UNLESS it conforms to your religion………………..and the next posing as some well read ‘intellectual’.That’s why I found your ‘thoroughly researched’ story about HIV just pompous and ridiculous and maybe more important NOT TRUE. Small detail.
I had a dream last night about going to intern at an embalming room. The embalmer turned out to be a guy I had played in a band with 50 years ago. There were two tables, an adult male on each; one a handsome dark complected man with an athletic body, the other, a former elementary school mate I have never been close to. Both were alive and choosing to circumvent catastrophic illness by death by embalming.
While the first man was being injected I asked the fellow I knew if he was sure about his decision, that he, “… might get well.” He was ambivilant. The embalmer excused himself to have a smoke. Another person I never saw started talking to the injected man. He said he ,”could feel the fluid setting up, and died with a grotesque grimace like an open mouthed scream.” Blair, the guy I knew
slipped off the table, wrapping the sheet around and we ran, suddenly being pursued by two security guards. I woke in a sweat, sobbing, ” I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” It was just a weird dream.
In the shower this am thoughts began flooding my mind. Thoughts about how in spite of all of my years of study, my daughter still died after surgery. I cried and said over and over, ,” Phil’s right, I’m full of shit. All of that study and I couldn’t save you. I’m sorry, I’m sorry.”
Then I remembered. Blair showed up at my school in Grade 3. A few months into the school year he was absent and the teacher said he had rheumatic fever, that he was very ill and might die. At night in my bed I talked to ,”god,” every night. I told him I wasn’t any good, that no body loved me or wanted me so would he let me take Blair’s place because people liked him. I did that until nearly the end of the school year when Blair returned.
On my way to my Chiro appointment this morning; I’m undergoing Matrix Repatterning, to deal with a spinal cord injury sustained last Fall, I remembered my mothering telling me at bedtime one night about helping the undertaker that day prepare the body of of an elderly neighbour for funeral. It was still often done at home at that time. She described the gravitation embalming in extreme detail, the process, the sounds, the smells. When she came home smelling of vinegar and formaldehyde I relived that information. Who in their right mind tells that to a 4 or 5 year old ?? crying now I remember,i’m seven, sitting , rocking back in forth on the cot, in our Front Room, bawling, she comes in and asks why, and i say i’m an old man mom, i’m just a little boy and i’m an old man. she stole my childhood and she had no right. and nobody cares unless i have something they want.
Exhausted, throat raw have not hit that much pain for that length of time for a long time body wanting to go again but i just can’t rigt now and what for anyway
Margaret,
I have copied some of the forward written by John Sarno from “Pathways to pain relief”, which hopefully gives you a better insight, than my simplistic version!!
“The proper diagnosis is a mindbody disorder in which people may experience pain, a variety of sensations called paresthesias (numbness, tingling, burning, etc.) and muscle weakness in the trunk, legs, and arms. Symptoms are highly individual. Of these, pain is the most consistent and disabling and the one for which most people seek treatment. The pathophysiology— that is, the actual physical process that is responsible for the symptoms— is rather straightforward. What one might refer to as the unconscious decision- maker in the brain/mind concludes that the emotional situation has reached a critical point and that something must be done to reinforce the normal forces of repression, the process that is designed to keep dangerous, painful, unhappy, embarrassing, or otherwise unacceptable emotions locked up in the unconscious. It is a decision made without consulting the conscious decision- maker, which seems illogical but which is the reality of brain function at this point in evolutionary time….”
What follows is the result of work with thousands of patients over almost four decades, a lot of reading in psychology and discussion with the psychologists who work with me. I am prepared to alter the ideas to be set forth at any time, as long as it is acknowledged that their origin is psychosomatic. Long before the details of the psychodynamic became evident, it seemed clear that some unconscious process was at work. Eventually, it was concluded that symptoms were created to reinforce repression by mounting a physical distraction, and that the severity of the symptoms reflected the intensity of the emotional state that required them. In other words, the symptoms were designed to protect the individual from the conscious experience of strong emotions. The obvious questions: What are those emotions, and what is their genesis?.
At first glance, it is hard to believe that the most important feeling is unconscious rage. The idea is threatening, preposterous, frightening to most people, but there is reason to believe that, with variations, unconscious rage is universal, part of the human condition in our culture at this point in evolutionary time. Consideration of its sources will make the idea more acceptable. As will be seen, it is not the only unconscious feeling that contributes to the necessity for symptoms, but is clearly the most powerful. It must be noted, however, that the rage is only a brief step away from the symptom designed to repress it, separated only by the “wall” that separates the conscious and unconscious spheres of mental- emotional activity. Experience has taught us that trying to express this unconscious rage is fruitless, though patients invariably ask how to do it. We have found, on the other hand, that becoming aware of the feelings that give rise to the rage can have a strong therapeutic effect. It should come as no surprise that the first contributor to the reservoir of rage we accumulate as we go through life is childhood. In fact, the influence of childhood emotional experiences is probably responsible for the majority of the rage, as will be seen as we go along. In the first five or six years of life, we are primarily emotional beings. It would, therefore, be logical that whatever reactions we have will be unrelated to reason or thought….”
I have also started to read “The divided mind”. A memory has been jogged of how I had to endure a doctor giving me penicillin injections in my bum daily, I may have been 4 or 5 years old. It was humiliating, as well as excruciatingly painful, as my dad was there watching (not nurturing) and my mum anxious. I remember yelling and having to steel myself… It may explain why I am extremely sensitive to injections, I get agitated if a spot of blood is taken from my thumb at my clinic ..etc. Not least my M.O. around G.P.s is suspicious initially, before I accept (or not) their wisdom.
> Phil, David, Jack,
> thanks, that was good breakfast reading, interesting and touching!
> am still bothered myself by a lot of fear, in my dreams, and as white noise during the day, hope some of it gets resolved in a not too distant future!
> then at some point had a nice dreams, with first some concerns about cats getting locked out in a room, but then turning into a warm and hilarious dream about cats playing around with pingpong balls and coming up for a cuddle and some reassurance.
>
> part of the fear might be triggered by upcoming statistics exam on thursday, the plumbers invading my place for two days in a row, as they are fixing toilets on all the floors, right now they are in my bedroom fixing a little fountain.
> then there is worry about my mom neding to go to a doctor’s appointment soon in another village, while she insists she can do it by herself, forgetting she did not find the former doctor at first, and forgot where she left her car too on another occasion, was ehelped out then by her boyfriend who happened to be around..
> and she gets so pigheaded when I discuss other options with her on the phone!!
> and of course there seems to be a huge load of old fear, including fear not to make it at birth, ‘won’t make it’, ‘can’t cope, can’t cope!!’..
> planned to go to a dance and a meal into town with a friend on friday, but am already very much inclined to cancel it, feel ‘not up to it’, well, might feel like ‘I can’t cope’, which is my everpresent fear before social outings..
> was feeling kind of weak all day long yesterday, bit dizzy too, found out my blood pressure was just a bit low, so only took half a pill of the blood pressure medication I am on.
> it already is a very low dos, as I kept diminishing the original prescription, while keeping my doctor up to date.
> I had to start it when for some reason my blood pressure reached extremely high peaks, 24 instead of the more normal 12 or 13 , and underpressure 17 instead of the normal 7 or 8..
> so right then the medication was really necessary,but I will keep cheeck on it now, with my talking blood pressure device, and maybe decrease the meds to nothing at all eventually..
> sorry for the long explanation, kind of thinking out ‘loud’ here..
> M
> forgot to mention the plumbers, appropiate name, pointed out to me, well, I asked them about it, that several of my drinking water plumbery is still in lead instead of copper.
> there are regulations now the landlord has to fix this, so have to make him do this now as soon as possible, as it worries me, drinking water out of lead plumbery all day long..
> just another worry on the pile..
> M
Weirdly ironically – having written earlier about sensitivity to injections, I’ve just been called by the practice nurse at my clinic, who are recommending I have the MMR vaccine as I’m soon travelling to Usa, and there is a measles outbreak.
Actually, the only times I’ve succumbed to vaccination as an adult was (1) in 1996 when I worked in the NHS in a hospital, and it was compulsory to have a Tetanus shot: (2) in 2000 when some shots were compulsory when I went to Thailand: (3) my first ‘flu jab in my life, jabbed viciously into my arm by an Intern ( she hit bone), which resulted in a frozen shoulder. Needless to say it was my last ‘flu jab EVER.
I feel disconcerted because there was care in the nurse’s voice, and it’s hard sometimes to ignore what the Health service offer. I don’t need to have anything added to make me anxious about my long-haul trip; California is one of the affected States, and she added “then you don’t know what you may pick up on the plane”!
It’s likely I won’t have the shots, as I don’t want more foreign bodies in my system.
Which means I have to try not to let it get to me.
Jo – please don’t…………….there is ‘NO’ so called ‘outbreak’ here there just isn’t. I have read a bit more about this so called outbreak…………………most of the kids who supposedly ‘got the measles were ALREADY vaccinated.(since vaccination is so wonderful one would have thought it might have prevented that NO it didn’t as it turns out…………….as far as how anyone could ‘trace’ and ‘outbreak’ (ALL of my words will have to be brackets) to a specific place like Disneyland……………….good ‘marketing’ I would say. Who would have thunk it the happiest place on Earth and some evil virus rises from the depths there……………a totally silly and off the wall piece of propaganda. But you can see it is propaganda that ‘works’ you have nurses in the UK ‘worried’ about it. That IS how propaganda works most of the people doing it have no idea………………..
Your instincts are good in this matter and your experience tells you too……………this is beyond ridiculous but shows the power of a growing let’s calls it medical mafia
You don’t have to ‘believe’ me there is no outbreak here…………………just ask anyone you know if they know anyone who is ‘affected’…………..they won’t because well there simple is no ‘outbreak’
Though maybe Jack knows someone he seems to ‘get off’ on proving me ‘wrong’ …………….what a strange ‘head trip’ is that and from an eminent ‘intellectual’ no less……………….
Jo, Another possibility is to be tested for measles titers. If the titers come back higher than a certain level, a vaccine is not considered necessary anyway. That was a really incompetent nurse, sticking your bone with the needle. I had a frozen shoulder this past year. It was painful and I went to physical therapy for it. It’s mostly all better now. Phil Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 13:11:54 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
That is beyond silly IMHO……………..’measles titres’ what is that supposed to mean……………you can be pretty sure the people who use it don’t know either…………….I had no idea this ‘shots’ business is becoming so common place…………….now every plane trip is suspect ‘you never know what you might catch there’………….it seems humanity is doomed and for several different reasons…………………
Patrick What your comment shows me is that you don’t know much about vaccines. Of course the people ordering and performing the test know what measles titers means. Why wouldn’t they? I do agree though about little risk traveling to Ca. But the MMR vaccine is no big deal. I’ve gotten it several times with no ill effects, just inconvenience of the doctor visit. Phil
Patrick Measles titers is a blood test showing the serum anybody levels for the antibody found to confer immunity. It could be high do to past infection as well. We order the MMR titers fairly often as institutions want evidence that prospective employees or students have immunity. They can either get the shot, have the blood test done, or find documents proving they were already vaccinated within the accepted time frame. Phil
This is a level of bureaucracy I am glad I have nothing to do with. Just about every sentence there could be disputed but whatever……………….one thing I do notice is “already vaccinated within the accepted time frame”……….vaccinations were sold as giving life time immunity but it turns out no it seems………………need more and more ‘booster shots’ which of course is more and more business…………….to me it is utterly corrupted ‘science’ and none of it can stand honest scrutiny.
I am honestly amazed that in the UK they are pushing MMR for adults now and maybe ‘booster shot’ versions so the person will need it again next year if they travel again. I got measles at 5 y.o. that is the end of the story if you rely on nature if you rely on the ‘industry’ you will be dealing with booster shots and their not small side effects. Your choice Jo but I think you know the answer……………..
Phil – I have thought a bit more about this. In all honesty it seems typical of the ‘half thinking’ involved is so much of this. So if someone had measles as a 5 year old presumably the ‘anti-bodies’ would be low or quiescent by now. So what do you do ‘rev’ them up again with a shot…………….this to me is pure nonsense based on multiple mis-undestandings. It’s hard even to know where to begin but if this is the state of ‘science’ now god help us…………….
I’m currently a book entitled “The Emperor of all Maladies: A Biography of Cancer”. It’s a Pulitzer prize winner, very well written and interesting. It is the story of cancer throughout history and our battle with it. Apparently it has been made into a documentary by Ken Burns, but I haven’t seen it. The book mentions that the average human lifespan in the year 1900 was 47 years, I think referring to the U.S. By 1950 the average lifespan went up by 20 years to 67. This was a tremendous improvement at a greater rate then centuries past. This was due mostly to advances in medicine and sanitary condition. The advances in medicine include vaccines, antibiotics and other medicines, improved surgical techniques etc. Sanitary improvements helped reduce the danger of infectious diseases. I guess a lot of here might not now be living with these advances. I’m only part way through the book, but highly recommend it. Phil Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:37:09 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
In averaging, the death toll from hazardous occupations is an important factor. Sanitation was a huge influence. It would be interesting, too, if average age of death in rural populations was compared to urban population.
A pictorial history of earliest 1900’s US cities shows not only garbage and sewage in the streets but rotting dead animals, including cartage horses.
A report from US medical archives cites that during the Asian flu pandemic patients treated at
Homeopathic Hospitals responded to nearly 100% cure. The death toll at Allopathic hospitals was staggering.
“The report of the Surgeon-General of the US Army states that during 1917 there were admitted into the army hospitals 19,608 men suffering from anti-typhoid inoculation and vaccinia. When army doctors tried to suppress the symptoms of typhoid with a stronger vaccine, it caused a worse form of typhoid, paratyphoid. But when they concocted an even stronger vaccine to suppress that one, they created an even worse disease, Spanish flu.” Mainly originating at a camp in Kansas.
Documentation shows a staggering increase in infant and maternal death rates when doctors seized prenatal care and birthing from midwives.
In 1979 a report published by the head of Pediatrics at our Children’s hospital Dr, Nuala Kenny,
states that an infant born Belgium, Denmark, and, Sweden, and numerous other countries considered less techno advanced had a markedly increased chance,upwards of 70%, of neonatal survival than infants born in Canada and the Unites States.
I think caution should be taken in both understating and overstating.
When the FDA approved the use of the arsenic drug Roxarsone to be used in poultry production used to quicken weight gain and rush to market maturity size, it’s odd it never raised an eyebrow.
David, All good and interesting points. I think it’s true about huge deadly mistakes made along the way. The book talks a bit about overly radical disfiguring cancer surgeries. Phil
David, I don’t know much about homeopathic medicine. I would look into it, as well as standard stuff, when trying to get well. I had a slight case of acid reflux which responded to dietary changes, and I was able to avoid prescriptions having unwanted side effects. Phil
A good introductory book is , ” A Guide to Family Homeopathy,” Dr. Andrew Locke; Dr. Margaret Roy, now in Glasgow I believe is a wonderful educator, practitioner, and author; Internationally, Professor George Vithoulkas, Athens, is recognized as the current world authority. He is generous, and a remarkably good communicator. They are offering a new course, advanced Classical Homeopathy. Dr. William J Lavalley, MD, Phd; is another source I trust implicitly.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Patrick, according to the WHO website 146,700 people died from measles globally in 2013. It is one of the leading causes of death in young children even though there is a safe vaccine available. Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013. Just quoting what is stated on the website. I don’t see how anyone can argue such statistics unless you want to theorize some massive conspiracy of misinformation. Phil Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:37:09 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
The term used is , “from complications of…”; in a world of 7 billion people. ” Leading cause is not used anywhere except, ” total worldwide population. Iatrogenisis, physician caused deaths , in the USA is cited as causing upwards of 800,000 deaths a year.
According to John Hopkins the child deaths from injectables and antibiotics far exceeds the risks of measles with 4 people dying since 2004.
David, My understanding is that measles is a dangerous illness. Those deaths reported by WHO almost all occurred in developing countries. Your low figure of 4 measles deaths might be for the US. Even for the California outbreak some people were hospitalized, although no deaths occurred, as far as I know. Iatrogenic deaths in the US: I see a figure of about 250,000 per year and not the leading cause of death. Still much too high and it should come down. There is a benefit/cost formula that comes into play with medicine. The benefits of it far out weigh the costs. Without medical interventions of all kinds, including vaccinations, antibiotics, and everything else, our average lifespan expectancy would no doubt drastically fall to match some developing counties where it is as low as 40 or 50 years. It’s clear to me we won’t be coming to agreement on these issues, and that’s fine. Phil Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 02:29:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
David, When I search on naturopathy and homeopathy mostly what I see are comments that it has 0% validity. Studies don’t seem to show that claims hold up, in most cases. That is pretty persuasive for me but I still have an interest in learning more about it. Maybe a lot of money and effort hasn’t been put to studying it and that might have something to do with it. Phil Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 02:29:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
depends where you look. Who is controlling the message; search Dr. Margaret Roy former Physician to the Royal Family; Professor Vithhoulkas; Dr. William J Lavalley; accredited schools of homeopathy; the Southwestern School of Naturopathic Medicine; Bastyr College of Naturopathic Medicine, Bridgeport….It was once the primary medical care system in the USA; now like Osteopathy and Primal it has been obscured. We, ” conspiracy theorists,” find links to the influences of the Rockerfellas, the DuPonts, the Carnegies in defaming natural medicine in favour of synthesized chemical allopathy. These links are in the form of letters to gov’t from the invested parties and the AMA. But they were likely forged. Like the utterances of Bush’s weapons of mass destruction detractors …
First described by Dr. Samuel Hahnemann, 1755 – 1843, in 1789. He is called the Father of Modern Pharmacology, for beginning evidence based efficacy; as well as Homeopaethy. He lead the way in medical sanitation, and was successful treatment of cholera, and typhoid; and was a leader in establishing humane treatment for mentally ill.
In the US ABC News touted Dana Ulman, MPH as “Homeopathy’s Foremost Spokesman.” Dana has devoted his life to homeopathy. He regularly speaks at leading medical schools and universities. He has authored 10 books and authored chapters on homeopathy in 3 leading medical textbooks. Dana authors an exceedingly popular column at the Huffington Post. https://www.homeopathic.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Homeopathy/A_Condensed_History_of_Homeopathy.html
Globally there are 100’s of Schools of Homeopathy; it is taught in many European Medical Schools as a degree program. The Devon School of Homeopaethy is considered one of the finest.
reference: http://avilian.co.uk/2008/08/25/scientific-research-and-homeopathy-research-forums-and-discussion-groups/ http://www.alive.com/health/homeopathy/
…” a man who has ears to hear and eyes to see has a growing mind…” Sitting Bull, Sioux
I’m resending this because of some many typos, I hope I fixed them all.
I’m currently (reading) a book entitled “The Emperor of all Maladies: A Biography of Cancer”. It’s a Pulitzer prize winner, very well written and interesting. It is the story of cancer throughout history and our battle with it. Apparently it has been made into a documentary by Ken Burns, but I haven’t seen it. The book mentions that the average human lifespan in the year 1900 was 47 years, I think referring to the U.S. By 1950 the average lifespan went up by 20 years to 67. This was a tremendous improvement at a greater rate then centuries past. This was due mostly to advances in medicine and sanitary condition. The advances in medicine include vaccines, antibiotics and other medicines, improved surgical techniques etc. Sanitary improvements helped reduce the danger of infectious diseases. I guess a lot of (us) here might not now be living (without) these advances. I’m only part way through the book, but highly recommend it. Phil Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:37:09 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Depends on your point of view Phil…………….I imagine I know at least as much ‘basics’ as you. In fact you seem to be missing the ‘basics’……………..as in most of your ‘science’ is not well founded……………
It never occurred to me to vaccinate for travelling to the US. Now I’m a bit leery about travelling to the retreat because my immune system is suppressed at the moment. Hopefully it will rebound by the time I leave for LA, as I’ll be almost finished with my diminishing drug dose by then. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Jo.
Actually, now I remember my Naturapath gave me some stuff for helping to fight infections should I catch anything while my immune system is suppressed.
> Jo,
> that is very unpleasant, right before you will be leaving!
>
> It made me wonder, I have had the measles as a kid, does that make one resistant to it all life long?
> and smallpox and another disease, nasty kind of cough..
> wish you a very nice stay, Jo!
> M
Margaret, thanks…
I told the nurse that both my girls had measles when they were small, and I didn’t catch it, and she said I must have had measles when I was a child then.
The other diseases – not smallpox but rubella ( I had that several times at boarding school, and one is only supposed to get it once!) and diphtheria the other.
my medical doctor says that following the logic of the panic campaigns it seems illogical that humankind ever survived let alone flourished, particularly among those living in comparatively primitive circumstances. She reflected on the fact that it was ,”needled,” modern world relief workers who brought in the pestilences into Haiti following that tragic event they found nearly impossible to eradicate.. She herself turned to a Functional medicine MD, and a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine to regain her own health.
David “panic campaigns” is a good word for it. Disneyland measles ‘outbreaks’ and things of that nature are needed to keep up the panic and needless fear. They are literally like advertising campaigns and like advertising unfortunately they do work
Whatever happened to ‘ebola’ no longer such a problem it seems but the ‘campaign’ has worked………………..a vaccine coming at some point the fear campaign makes it seem necessary without the campaign people might ‘lose faith’ in their authority figures/doctors
I wonder at your authority on some of these matters. What I find a little disconcerting about your comments on the matter is that you are so, so adamant that your version of things are correct. A little more modesty and less authoratarianism might help you to be more convincing. There are no real certaincies in life other than “Death and Taxes”. What is today’s truth (certainty) is tomorrows doubt … and revision in ‘thinking’. That has been our history for millennium !!!
I don’t doubt that the medical profession has missed many ‘boats’ and later has had new ones … and the process goes on and on … to the extent that at times there seems little that one can be certain of. It was for that very reason that I abandoned the notion of “Truth” in my first book. Who’s truth and for how long? …
It was for that very reason that I would rather go by MY feelings … and hope that every other person on the planet would just trust their gut and go by their own feelings. Alas, we have perverted the very nature of the “whole feeling” (that is the sensation and the expression). It’s all to do with MONEY … and yet, most of us are unable to even contemplate it’s abolition. Why? I beg to ask. the only solution to that question, as I see it is:- we are so so, fucking terrified of CHANGE.
You make good points there IMHO. I actually agree with most of this. The only thing that I would question a bit is aren’t you with your strong adherence to you own ‘beliefs’ also showing great fear of change? You may say you don’t ‘believe’ in anything but to me you do. What makes you so ‘different’ what COULD make you so different? This old John Lennon chestnut I would add “I don’t believe in primal”
I have said before on this blog and wrote in my book that you supposedly read, I refrain from believing. “Belief” is a verb … something you do. I keep as far away from that ‘doing word’ as I can. I do not “believe” in Primal Therapy I DO Primal Therapy OR, to put it more simply I express my feelings as soon as they come up, and that is the whole essence of this therapy that by your own account, YOU FAILED to do.
Secondly: for you to play clairvoyant in-so-far as you are for ever telling me, what I do, what I believe, who I am, what’s going on inside me; is arrogant in the extreme. I am the expert on me … and YOU will never be an expert on ME. You are, as I’ve repeatedly stated, the best expert on yourself … only
Others, outside of oneself can merely only state their feeling/s about another. GET IT ……….. for fuck’s sake. Boy!!!! you are a slow learner, for all you hope, seemingly, to become some great intellectual. Something I am (slowly, I do confess) attempting to shed. It is my sole desire to become a FEELING-FULL person and to drop all that intellectualism that I got educated into. That was the turn around for me, when I entered Primal Therapy. That is why , to me, this therapy is so, so, so different to anything else out there. Especially those things devised by ex medical students, that it appears to me, YOU seem so desirous to follow.
Jeez Louisz man – I said I AGREED with you, you seem to NEED an ‘argument’………………..shows to me how little has changed………………you might as well be some toffee nosed snob mocking the likes of me for being ‘slow’……………even if I am ‘slow’ so what I thought being ‘fast’ is just a head trip. Methinks you are on permanent ‘head trip’……………..head tripping NEEDS ‘argumentation’………………….
Another aspect of this vaccination business………………it infantalises people turns them into little kids……………for God’s sake we ALL got ‘measles’ when we were children why are they pushing this on adults now. And Margaret you have not been so great attention ‘getting’ the measles is the ONLY way to build immunity to it not some stupid man made piece of crap riddled with other viruses, aluminum, formaldehyde etc etc.
And all under the guise of ‘caring’ oh we are worried about you, there is an outbreak there blah blah blah……………..treat someone like a child with no mind of their own……………..they love this about places like Africa of course…………….make sure you get you shots…………….but now the whole world is ‘infected’ how utterly nonsensical all of this is……………….
And Margaret to come back to you as ‘right’ as you think you are about so much……………look at your RESULTS!!
I had several dreams last night. In one of them I was a child on the floor wanting to
cuddle with a pet dog. The dog didn’t want to do this however, and moved away from me.
The dream was short and to the point.
Actually in childhood I got better attention from pet dogs than I did from my own mother. She wanted nothing to do with me that I can remember. The dream has to do with being ignored and
treated badly even by a dog.
Phil
Hi All
Yesterday I went to visit my “girlfriend”.
She is my “92 year old client”, as we talk about her at home. I do grief and bereavement support as a volunteer. I probably mentioned this before. But, the onset of age plays tricks with my mind.
Anyway, I was asked to arrange with her, Maria, to do an interview and some photo shoots. The story will go into a monthly blurb in the agency, which provides all sorts of services to the community.
After the interviewer left, my girl went quiet, closed her eyes. I asked her if she is OK, would she like to lye down, as she is extremely frail. She said……..wait for this…..she was talking to her mum and dad and her little sister. She was telling them how lucky she is to have ME in her life.
I got very tearful. Not because of the complement. No.
BECAUSE she had them inside her. Her terrific mum, unbelievable dad and the most beautiful little sister. They were all killed in the Holocaust. But they lived inside her.
Where is my MUM? How come I can’t find my Dad? Why aren’t they inside me now? Why are they not inside me FOREVER?
It kills me. It leaves me feeling empty. Lonely. Forever searching for that elusive IT.
It hurts. Don’t know how to stop it hurting. Day and night.
MUUUUUUUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
PS
Am I your darling boy? Do you really love me? Love me MUM. Please.
I’m wrestling with it a lot these days. I don’t know which way to turn with my life. Every direction is empty, as is staying in place.
The one thing I know is I have to change the status quo; staying in place doesn’t change much, whereas following a direction might. I feel overwhelmed. I’ve been here before. I’ve learned that if I follow a direction that looks hopeless but deep inside means something to me, meaning starts to happen. But I feel frozen in place.
I advised someone once that the worst place to be is in the fog of indecision. That’s where I am, as retirement approaches and my life as I’ve known it up until now ends. The reason it feels so difficult is because I feel so alone with it all. When it comes to the desperate crunch, there is no one in me who I talk to….there is just me in there all by my fearful lonely self having to manage life’s journey.
> as I am no expert on most things, I stay away from strong opinions.
>
> my assumption would be a lot of vaccines are very useful, while some others might not have such a positive effect.
> at least that seems to be the conclusion if I recall a recent interview with a doctor here on television, with regard to a new vaccine against, I am not sure, rubella or smallpox or something similar, that some want to include in the general packet.
>
> he said with this disease and vaccine, the risk is it wears out at the age of thirty, and if people get the disease at that age it is much more serious than when they would get it at a young age.
> so that would be a risk, unless they also would oblige a revaccination in time.
>
> I guess as with most things, the middle way is the best way, finding a balance between the usefullness like with vaccines against polio, for me undeniably extremely useful, as they saved a lot of lifes and a lot of people and children from paralyses and disablement.
>
> on the other hand, as also my vet said, there tends to be an over vaccination which indeed we should be careful about and do our best to avoid.
>
> that is my cautious standpoint right now, and my behaviour at this moment is inquiring, asking people I trust, including medically well trained professionals, who often are very open about the pros and cons.
>
> it seems well, a bit presomptuous and not very smart to make strong conclusions about vaccines in general, if you don’t even know titers are useful just to check a vaccine is not necessary when the immunity is still there, for most people who had measles, but probably not for all.
>
> I ‘d leave those questions for trained people like phil and his colleagues, ask them about it and listen to their responses, without jumping to strong and rigid conclusions.
>
> so much arrogance, as a saying here goes, a lot of beeee beeee and not much wool, smiley, didn’t know the word for the sound sheep make, guess this comes down to the same..
> M
Margaret, A vaccine for Lyme disease in humans did not work out and was pulled from the market. It caused symptoms similar to the disease. It’s taking a long time for a new one to come out. Lyme disease is s big problem around here. Not all new vaccines, medicines, and procedures turn out good. So what you say here makes sense to me.
Margaret: The word I gather, for the noise that sheep make is:- Bah, Bah. As in the nursery rhyme I learned as a kid: “Bah bah black sheep have you any wool? …… Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full” If you are interested in the rest of the rhyme I might recollect it.
Margaret – I see your little and not so little ‘digs’ at me. Black and white, arrogant etc I know you are referring to me and I am not impressed by that kind of indirect shit spreading or attempting to. You seem to harbor a lot of resentments and a kind of weird certainty and there is something very rigid about you. It seems you will or would keep on and on with this so I decide to ‘call’ you on it. It takes more than your indirect resentful digs to make me go away.I am aware of your below the radar approach. I would prefer to be directly addressed. You seem to seek ‘agreement’ from others to bolster yourself into some ‘certainty’ but I don’t like your ‘digs’
>
> David, just for the record, I wrote my former comment before reading yours, so it does not refer to you at all.
>
> but well, as you mention it, although this is no medical blog, and I am just expressing my own personal momentary view, I have strong hesitations about homeopathy.
> I believe in herbal treatments, don’t get me wrong, but well, the memory of water is too far a step for me, specially after seeing some documentaries about comparative studies of clinical effects, or their absence.
>
> but well, we all can only try to form our own opinions with the infomation we gather, and I respect your view and your experiences of course.
>
> as Jack stated so well, nothing is entirely certain, and if I might add, nothing is entirely black and white in my own experience so far.
>
> by the way, does the word ‘nuance’ exist in English? or which word would be the correct one, if it exists?
> just curious.
> M
I’m sorry Margaret what comment of mine are you referencing ? Yeah, Homeopathy sounds rather whacky. That was my impression, too, even after some early study. Then I witnessed it’s efficacy in action, not only with adults but children, infants, small and large animals. A significant number of medical doctors use it in their practice on several continents. In France pharmacies listed Homeopathic Remedies as the first medicine they dispense.The medical doctors who introduced it to me held Phd’s, a degree beyond MD, in medicine and several specialties. They were introduced to it accidentally and their early foray into homeopathy was actually to prove to themselves it was ridiculous.
Stephen Hawking says the explanation for why it works is embedded in nano physics not chemistry, and that vibronics is the explanation for why anything works.
Homeopathy has done a poor job of explaining itself to the world. They reason that defending lowers credibility. Medical doctors I know are open with me that they use it quietly because they know if they go against the dictates of their association they will be defamed.Once the largest medical model historians blame the politics of the power of wealth caused it’s decline. There is no kings ransom to be earned as a practitioner. Remedies are comparatively cheap. People get well and stop contributing to the income line.
The studies I have seen have been designed for failure.
Medicine is big business.
>
> whom the shoe fits etc.
> life does not revolve around you Patrick, you seeem to focus on attacking the person instead of the ball most of the time, while my focus is on the contents of the subject.
> and yes, arrogant referred to your attitude, i have no problem being direct with that.
> M
This video/song reminds me of Jack…………… a top hat and tails toffee nosed ‘arse wipe’ except with him it seems to be a ‘wanna be’ of that luckily for the world he never ‘succeeded’………..I hate that English snobbery even ‘inverted snobbery……………………..
David – I thought it interesting your account of the Great Flu around 1918 was very likely CAUSED by vaccines or vaccines for the effect of other vaccines. It makes sense.
I have no proof of this but I was thinking as kids growing up the big fear of course was polio anyway I wonder what caused it how did it seemingly suddenly appear on the scene. I have tried to read up on it and I think we as kids got a vaccine so called DPT (diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus) which had been used in Ireland since the 1940’s. Anyway my suspicion is it is quite likely that so called ‘polio’ was as a result of that vaccine or others like it. It is a great irony that our attempts at ‘fixing’ things often make things worse.
As far as I remember we received for sure one vaccine possibly two and that was it (thank God) I know we were afraid of polio but I don’t know if the vaccine was even in Ireland at that time. Polio of course is always held out a the great ‘success’ and ‘proof’ of vaccines. But the more you dig into it it is far from that. Changed definitions, non paralytic polio was afterwards called meningitis, the paralytic polio had to last over 60 days after tne vaccine was introduced, before a few days was enough etc etc. Major messing with statistics to ‘prove’ what they set out to prove namely that the polio vaccine was safe and effective.(What strikes me also if the authorities did all this changing of definitions etc it means they knew how dodgy the whole thing was if the general public did not)
They never even really knew what polio WAS, they assumed it was a ‘virus’ which they did not know what that was either just something very small and assumed to be the ’cause’. it is interesting though that ONE episode has firmly put it in people’s mind that vaccines ‘work’. That’s some good brainwashing……………………….and something that is now built on to absurd levels.
Jesus Jesus Jesus. I am depressed and unable to do a lot of things that I need to do. Not sure why depressed. Old dog is old and will die someday. In the meantime, if he isn’t asleep, he needs someone with him constantly. That is making it difficult for Z because she is with him all day and trying to work at home also. Whatever. Money to pay taxes might be coming in, possibly. I got a few cans and jugs of corn, watermelon, and other seedlings going at least. Don’t know if I will ever get them in the ground. I cannot clip the maltese’s nails, which are horribly long. They are too long to take to a groomer, and he struggles so much that I cannot clip them myself, so they continue to grow longer. The old dog grows weaker and weaker in his front legs; we bought one of those crippled dog carts so he could walk, but that is not working out too well, the cart is like Frankensteins monster to me, and difficult to use, and there is no room in the house for him to use it. The boss clique at work just got worse, as they hired one of their own to be the lead technician. I hate their politics and I am paranoid about what they are going to make us do. They already stress us out by demanding more and more work; I am old and inefficient and my brain and body and will cannot keep up with the younger guys. The yard remains a mess and I always worry about the city coming to inspect it and costing my landlady thousands in fines, and then she could kick us out, and we would never be able to find anything as affordable in a good part of town. It is already hotter than hell here in the San Fernando Valley, which makes it even harder to get motivated. There is a goddamn hawk living in a tree not too far away, feeding it’s babies any live thing it can catch, in a horrible tearing manner, I imagine. My blood sugar had gotten to 400 by eating sugar, but I finally got it down to under 200 by eating boca burgers and raw vegetables and cheetos. Well got to go get some sleeping pills for Z at whole foods. I will come back and finish watching a John Wayne movie on Netflix, about a plane going into the sea. Strange little movies they put on Netflix. Strange strange strange. Anyway, cockroaches coming out of the woodwork. I moved a heavy recycling trash container of bills and papers that I have stored in there since we got back from Arizona in 2008. There were cockroaches under it, and I killed at least 3 of them by crushing them, by accident. One little roach went up to one of the dead ones and stopped for a minute and looked and then scurried off under the blue trash container that I had moved, where all the others had run to. Except one had run into the neighbors yard, and their dog was barking and then someone said “oh,he’s got a bug”. So I felt devastated that I had disturbed the roaches little happiness, and also the neighbor is going to know where the roaches came from, and he is a prissy guy who is always working on his house, and so I have fear fear fear.
I am not sure about his endorsement of Homeopathy, only read an article in which Dr. Hawkings said he understands the mechanism as the explanation comes from physics and that it does not act on disease, bacteria, viruses, rather it acts on the tissue of the body and the body interprets it as it does the vibrations that forms colors and sound. In doing so it stimulates the body to heal itself. I am glad Dr. Hawkings can speak in my language because I cannot speak his level of understanding. hah
No Naturopathy refers to a medical art based on the belief of using natural substances, including nutrition, and natural therapies to support the body in maintaining health and healing. Naturopaths study Homeopathy and may choose to specialized in Homeopathy after completing a 4 year Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine, which in itself is pretty much equivalent to a GP with a specialty in natural medicine. A BSc and Premed are standard prerequisites. My Naturopath is also Degreed in Pharmacology, and was a practicing pharmacist. My MD,GP, gave up standard practice to pursue evidence based medicine. My Homeopath is a qualified MD,+ PHD, Medicine, MSc Microbiology, CD, PHom, Evidence Based Oncology Protocol Formulator.
When my son had cancer he recommended surgery before natural healing. My son s tumour ended up being benign. The oncology team hounded him for three years after because he was the, ..” youngest person to ever have this type of tumour.” When he refused to be guinea pigged the situation became nasty. His youngest son, at the time of his birth the youngest premie survivor, he had shared in completing a family history, was following an ovo vegetarian and fishes diet. He was threatened with being referred to Child Protection Services for exposing Daemon to a dangerous diet, if he did not submit to exploratory medicine. We met that with a legal response.
Homeopathy is also practiced as a stand alone practice. It has 2 schools of conviction: Classical Homeopathy, the practitioner uses single remedies and
attempts to find the one remedy that most closely matches the individual; Complex Homeopathy utilizes combination remedies. North Americans are wanting a quicker fix me it seems and complex remedies are composed of a number of compatible remedies that meet different characteristics of the presenting symptoms.
Contrary to popular belief a 1 hr consultation is not a hand holding, poor dear, empathy ‘r’ us, session. Case taking is hard work, recording dozens or hundreds of facets of presenting symptoms and cross referencing them with thousands of pages of Materia Medica. The Naturopath and Homeopath
is often rather poker faced to avoid imparting any behaviour that might influence patient response. It would not be uncommon in appropriate situations to give a benign remedy to check for placebo response. At all cost no message of, ” this is going to fix it,” should be imparted.
David,Interesting, I wonder what qualifies something as a natural substance. The activeingredient in aspirin, for example, is found in the bark of willow trees, so it is naturally occurring.I’m sure, however, that it is synthesized and not harvested from willow trees. Phil
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 22:55:05 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hmmm!!!!….???? Very interesting question, Phil; Sodium salicylate is commercially prepared by treating sodium phenolate (the sodium salt of phenol) with carbon dioxide at high pressure (100 atm) and high temperature. So the chemists synthesize natural substances, and sell them for whorish profits. We believe and there is actually science to back it up that natural substances are complex, such as salicin sourced from white or black willow bark, compared to test tube acetylsalicylic acid. It is the synergy of those elements that produces the desired effects and mutes the undesired ones.
Roughly 80% of the modern Pharmacopeia is based on the knowledge of the North American Indian at point of Invasion.
I’ m not going to do this Phil. I believe your, ” interest,” is pseudo and disingenuous; a man with a plan.
This is the game where where you, the guy with the real science degree sucks in the guy with the unscientific degrees and conspiracy theory mind and reveals he is not credible. Maybe that’s what Patrick means when he uses the word, ” sneaky.”
I don’t know you and I don’t have any desire to get to know you;and I do not wish to dialogue with you further. You’re a lab tech, you know where to look for information. Stupid me for playing into your hand. I’m a bit vulnerable these days and softened against my better judgement. I won’t make that mistake again. And surely as a grown person you don’t require rescuers rushing in now to laud you and spank me.
Now there’s arsenic in fruit seeds but different than the arsenic drugs Zoetis, Nitarsone, and Roxarsone, used to make poultry grow faster, 2X as fast. Hey, Phil maybe depression is really caused by low levels of Prozac?? What do think , Phil ??
David, I did do a little search on homeopathy and saw that many consider it a pseudoscience. Primal gets the same kind of treatment, of course. After I finish what I’m currently reading maybe I could find an interesting story on this type medicine. It isn’t some sneaky plan to later attack you, but I am biased due to education and experience, I admit, and skeptical. It would be good to become better informed on this, but I don’t know if I’ll follow through. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
This thing about ‘memory in water’ sounds strange at first but memory itself is pretty strange. Or how about the ‘memory’ of DNA etc of inheritance what is the memory that guides the development of a foetus in the womb, ‘something’ is doing the memory and water is pretty central to life. I know next to nothing about homeopathy but I think it is probably good also for all the stuff it would NOT do……………….I mean the usual cocktail of drugs and vaccines etc. There may well be something to it and also maybe not exactly the so called ‘placebo’ effect but the effect of going to someone who sits you down and listens respectfully. That though it sounds pretty basic is not so easy to find anymore it seems. The guy who made the movie about Scientology said though that is sort of obviously a crazy ‘religion’ just the fact that they start out listening seemingly intently and respectfully is enough to get people ‘hooked’ on it
I think Stephen Hawking’s ‘endorsement’ if that is what it is is maybe a mixed blessing. He also seems to believe that our best chance to survive involves going to other planets. That sounds like a pretty crazy and bad idea to me. I saw the movie about him during the winter and I dunno he is ‘smart’ so to speak but I don’t think that smart. What struck me about him is he seemed to start with big bangs and black holes and so it has been ever since. Even his illness did not seem to give him pause and in a strange way he has been ‘rewarded’ for his illness and all the cheering he gets for doing all his work in spite of his illness keeps him very much on the same track.I found it odd that at least as the movie tells it he never seemed to much wonder about his illness………………it was just a case of big bangs and black holes all the way down.
Phil – NO actually! Quite the opposite I think I am still too ‘sciency’. I seem to need it as I cannot quite rely on myself and my feelings. It feels like something I ‘needed’ when I was very small and helpless………………..without that ‘crutch’ I would not make it. So it feels as ‘safety’ to me but like all crutches better thrown away or like living without addictions. But to me the beauty of ‘science’ is it has lots of ‘negative feed back loops’ so if it pursued to it’s end it tends to invalidate itself. I think ‘good science’ does that ‘bad science’ is more like ‘religion’……………
Patrick, To me, bad science would be something not properly proven by scientific methods. We might believe in some of those things anyway for whatever reason. It would be very difficult to stop using the results of science in our lives. Have to go live in the bush pretty much to not be using those products
Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
So !!!!!!! Who is deciding what is good science and what is bad science? I hope to fuck it’s not left to P. Griffin to decide. That would be an even a bigger disaster.
” Memory of water,” is not a Homeopathic term. It was coined by a journalist when the theory published by French Immunologist Jacques Beauveste about histamine, etc, etc., After diluting the substance many time there was no discernible material present.
Homeopathy does not portend to treat disease. The belief that the body has the intelligence to heal itself is the basic premise. The homeopath is simply helping the body to so respond.
The same as I saw veritable miracles happen with Primal, me not yet one, lol; I have seen the same with Homeopathy. The first my inlaws Corgi, Taffy; diagnosed as paralysed in the hind quarters; I had accepted the sad job of taking her to the vet to be euthanized. She was to stay with us for two days before the event. As I walked down the hall, Taffy began screaming and chewing her hip. Every time I walked by it was repeated. So I sat and watched, talked to her and watched her eyes, her breathing. She was quiet and sad but only screamed if I walked close. So I
chose three remedies, dissolved each in sterile water and dripped them under her tongue. An hour later Taffy was walking. Months later she exhibited incontinence, and the vet believed it too was spine related. Remedies for elder incontinence did the trick. Those for childhood enuresis had no effect.
Enuf; guess it is clear Homeopathy is exciting for me. For others it is the ultimate quackery.
I wish you all you’ll have a good retirement. I would love to go, but unfortunately I must give priority to solve and improve my financial situation and move forward with my business. I think next summer I will be in a better position to go.
I really miss you. I have not done a long trip since long time and would love so. So I miss all colleagues of therapy, Also Barry Bernfeld, Gretchen, Atty, Tom, Jack, Margaret, Vicky, etc. To everyone I carry in my heart, you are always on my mind
Also say that the emotional brain has natural mechanisms for self-healing: it has innate abilities to recover balance, homeostasis and well-being comparable to other self-healing mechanisms of the body, such as wound healing or eliminating infection. If the right circumstances happen and no doubt that in the Primal Institute and in its retreats happen such circumstances.
The approach to the emotional brain to produce these properties of recovering homeostasis, the lost equilibrium is and was the great discovery of A. Janov and his team.
So I get emotional and I dedicate this song and I work you are always on my mind, best way you are always in my heart.
> miguel,
> that was very nice.
> how does your business go?
> does it give you satisfaction?
> it must be hard to start up, I hope all goes well for you, you worked hard for it, M
Below is something about the shooting in So Carolina. Whatever else is the same or different it seems pretty much all of these guys are on psych meds.Doesn’t say much for those meds.
“CBS News is reporting that Dylann Roof was arrested on February 28 in a mall, while he was asking a store clerk “out of the ordinary questions.” At that time, he was found in possession of a medicine called Suboxone.
It is an addicting drug used to treat opiate addiction. Some adverse effects: agitation, hostility, hallucinations, attempted suicide, depersonalization.
Rapid withdrawal from Suboxone can be more dangerous than taking it.”
At it again: One med causes it all. Namely that psyche meds are the cause of all criminality. So !!!!! first answer the questions:- 1) Why do some folks take psyche meds? 2) Why don’t all folks taking psyche med turn out to behave criminally? I contend the answer to both lies deeper than that Irish mind of yours permits.
Geeze; the simplicity of your explanations should require you to undergo some psychological treatment … not necessarily Primal … that might be too difficult for you Seemingly, your diet and exercise are not cutting it for you 😦 ..
You are just an idiot who it seems constantly needs an ‘argument’ I am not saying anything like you are saying, I just noticed that in the news. All the rest is just you usual projections, nonsense, head tripping etc.
I said earlier “you mght be right” I think that ‘threatens’ you more than anything, you might run out of someone to ‘argue’ with.
Phil I put this quote down here in answer to your ‘statistics’ about measles. I do find your just sort of repeating what you are told well a bit ‘weak’ There need not be ” you want to theorize some massive conspiracy of misinformation”…………after all a ‘conspiracy’ is not needed if people willingly just believe what they are told……………
“Over 30 years of vaccination for measles has caused vicious mutation in the disease, transformed it into a disease of adults and infants and left us with inadequate immunity to pass on to our children. And we now have a substantial number of children damaged by the vaccine”
You do an awful lot of ‘contending’……………the same word as ‘contentious’ argumentative………………to me that’s a poor sign of some ‘success story’ as self defined…………….how about trying a bit of FEELING………………..said in a high pitched gay Winston Churchill like shriek……………….
>
> went to do my first statistics exam yesterday, Quantitative Data Analysis..
> it took me three hours, and the good thing is I felt more or less in control, managing quite easily to look up data in all the different files my previous data analysis had given as output, and the summaries I had made of it.
>
> but doing this exam also was a test on checking how well the software I work with ‘R’,is lined up with the SPSS software that was used by the other students and the exam commission who had made up the questions.
>
> turns out there still are some differences,, some of then probably due to different presettings, I have heard my software is more accurate, and can therefor for example label a result as insignificant, while other less accurate programs would still accept it as significant.
>
> a minor .001 makes a huge difference if it comes down to a multiple choice exam sometimes.
>
> then it also showed that the way I had, together with the teacher, made up some commands in ‘R’ to split up a variable in subcategories, and then labelling it as an extra variable to work with, also contained a small difference, just a few percentages more or less in the groups shiffted the outcomes from some tests.
> that of course was no good news, as some of my output did not even appear in the options of the answers, but the good thing is I noticed what the problem was, and what its cause , and could extrapolate what might be the right answer with different settings, probably.
>
> then some small bugs in my own software became apparent, so I did the exam, feeling I had a good grip on most of the theory and practice, but will have to wait for to which degree the software that still needs some adjusting will interfere with the outcome of the test.
>
> I did immediately note down all the question numbers involved, in an e-mail I sent to the teacher, briefly explaining the complication.
>
> then today I did spend a lot of time in summing up all the items that need to be looked at, software and ways of proceeding with it, output inconsequencies, and the influence on a number of exam questions.
>
> I copypasted the output of the relevant tests and some definite anomalies and attached the whole lot in an e-mail to my teacher.
>
> I told him I felt good about feeling I had a grip on the material, and stil firmly believe in we can make it work with this software, using it only with the sound of the screenreader, and that I hoped he, or we, would find time to look into it, and make the necessary adjustments.
>
> so the conclusion is I feel proud of myself for what I did, regardless of whether I pass, but of course I certainly hope I will, after all the hard work!!
>
> sorry if this might not interest many of the blog readers, but maybe some, and it felt nice to write it down for myself anyway!
> so fingers crossed and to be continued, M
Margaret, It sounds like you must have done well on the exam, Congratulations! I would think your professor would take into consideration those software differences. I remember taking a course in statistics last century and all we had for use were calculators. It’s a large task crunching a lot of numbers that way. Phil Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:35:20 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Lucky old you … for at least having a calculator. In my century we had to do it with ambition, distraction, amplification and derision; then get the Griffin to look at our answers and pass it on to the Mad Hatter for marking … then if it was wrong the Quenn of Hearts would strap us.
Margaret: Good luck with the results. Can’t say though that your comment lit my candles. But hey hoo if this gets you where you want to be, that’s all that matters.
Thank you so much Phil and Margaret . I am sorry , I meant retreat, instead of retirement. Have a nice retreat. Retiro it means retreat , but retirement is jubilarse which it means in latin to be glad.
Margaret nice you are working hard with statistics. I had to take private lessons to overcome the exams on statistics the X in the equations gave me a headache, also private lessons for Methodology, and Learning and conditioning ( Watson, Skinner and Ivan Paulov) game me same headache) and also private lessons for Experimental designs.
Yes Margaret I am working hard on my business, after having had all my bourocracy resolved and My private practice recognized by the Department of Health of the Andalusian and having being recognized me and my offices as a sanitarian Center and me a Sanitarian or clinic psychologist and now I must look for clients , which is quite hard , there is much competition .
This is my site http://www.psicologointegral.com yand try to practice Terapia Emocional profunda. Deep Emotional therapy so there is no confusion with Primal therapy.
Miguel: I checked the site and from my ‘tienda’ Spanish was able (surprisingly, being such a failure with linguas) to get the gist of most of it. A great site, very impressive and hope it gets you a fair amount of clients. I loved the picture of the girl crying.
>
> wow, Phil,
> can’t imagine how long it must take to do a data analysis with only a alculating machine, a small one iI mean..
>
> it took me almost a month, several hours a day, to do the analysis with the statistics software, a lot of time going into unraveling all the data and summarizing them as to search for conclusions..
> and of course all the thinking first as to which tests need to be done, etc. and setting up the right set of commands..
> it is still surprisingly interesting, while also to be used with care and caution, as goes for most things..
> jack, thanks anyway, smiley!
> M
Margaret, we mostly dealt with small sets of data, sample sizes of 20 to 30, lets say. Yes, it all had to be done with small calculators lacking statistical functions. This was before PCs. Phil
You must feel great pride in your accomplishment, Maggie. Imagine when we had to do it on a piece of slate, using a pointy rock to inscribe the data. hee hee. Stats was a terror curse for me. I think something to do with ultimate accountability.
Gud on ya.
I am leaving to-morrow for the Kruse Cruise. Fly to New Orleans to-morrow early and leave on Sunday arrive back the following Sunday so 7 days at sea. Stops a few places along the way Yucatan in Mexico, Belize I think also. So maybe you will not hear from me (a relief to some I am sure) but then again maybe you will. I imagine everything nowadays has internet access.
I am ‘excited’ at the least it should be interesting. We have a little ‘group’ of 5 already but I think there will be about 30 in the total group but this in a ‘boat’ containing up to 3,000 people.. Anyway to give an idea our group is a 24 y.o. Chinese guy who now lives in Australia and seems a borderline genius a super ‘smart’ guy, a woman from Finland in her 30’s who seems to have something close to an iddlyic life in Finland, a guy about my age lives in Arizona and is a kind of ‘veteran’ (like myself lol) of a lot of the ‘movements’ from the 60’s onward lived in India with ‘gurus’ etc knows about primal too lol and a lady in her 50’s who is Canadian
I am a bit fearful it feels a bit like when I decided to go to boarding school. Leave the dirt and hardship and the ‘hatred’ of the neighbors behind for a NEW life a different and better life (I hope) a llfe where I will be listened to and respected and not harried and hounded by ‘hatred’. “Here” feels like home and people can see the parallels…………….anyway I found in the past that I cannot build a new life on the shaky and ruined foundations of the old but I am slow to learn. I am stubborn and always it seem ready to try again even if now i am older and ‘know’ that is not really possible
In some ways it feels like some “Last Hurrah” I feel weirdly ‘older’ all of a sudden but anyway maybe feels like it will be my last significant ‘trip’ not before I die exactly but before I settle down in Ireland very likely and sort of watch the madness of the world go by. I am done with ‘changing’ all that but I do reserve the right to keep my mind and eyes open and sort of go into the long night of the soul with a very bitter/sweet feeling about life. Some of the stuff I have been on about here the reliance on drugs and the vaccines and all the rest of it just seems like humanity bent on self destruction but bigger people than me seem powerless to stop it so………….
Primal or people here are my ‘family’ so to speak with all the resentments and ‘hatreds’ I have accumulated but family is still family so to speak again anyway I am rambling…………..I want to thank Gretchen for loaning me a few books that I may or may not talk about there……………I will see how it goes………….I even imagined myself maybe giving a little ‘presentation’ about primal I know people here might find me a strange ‘ambassador’ but anyway life can be and it seems is strange. I feel like saying ‘wish me all the best” I am a bit scared and apprehensive actually………..
This thing about being ‘stubborn’ or willing to try again reminds me of this song. And David you can even see how the ‘moving’ theme fits in here there is one bit around the one minute mark where I swear I just saw M.L. ‘truck’ lol
Patrick: Enjoy the trip and for fuck’s sake don’t go overboard with Jack Kruse. This time there may not be any life guards to save you … I don’t think they operate that far our in the Gulf of Mexico. AND … as advice from the “keeper of the crypt”; stay with the fear … it might resolve itself. You never know.
> Patrick,
> I wish you the best, and a bit to my own surprise I really mean it.
>
> you talk about hatred coming your way, maybe reflect a bit on the saying ‘what you give is what you get’, you sometimes really seem to be looking for confrontations, for reasons only you can figure out.
>
> so, well, still wish you the best.
> M
>
> David, thanks, smiley.
> when did you have to do a statistics course?
> I had never had it before, not even in high school, was my very first encounter with it..
> will be a bummer if I have not passed, but still, the feeling of achievement is already there, and the desire to persist in going on with it..
> now have to dive into all the brain parts, their functions, the theories about memory, attention and other cognitive functions, and all their interactions and disorders, and it is a very detailed course, sigh, with cell layers and everything, and all those creaks and folds and their names, no wonder we get some crooked thinking now and then. an intersting course, but hard to study, too many facts…
>
> due in august..
> M
nearly 50 years ago, Margaret, Sociology; pretty rudimentary stuff as a function compared to today. But it did form a good base for complex critical thinking, due diligence, all of that. I came to realize how valuable it had been maybe 3o years ago.
I don’t want to be jinxing myself here and I really should be packing my bags…………….but I delay…………..I think I delay a lot because it is all too painful, delay seems to put things on hold, on hold from realizing how conflicted and confused I am.
Like this thing about the ‘new’ and the ‘old’ when I struck out all by myself at 13 y.o. I turned my back on everybody and everything, that’s young to do that or to feel I had to do that but I did………..I ‘planned’ it and saw it through but my plan hit a bump when my Dad took me out alone to an isolated spot in the mountains and broke down crying and I mean long and hard crying………….without words I knew what he was saying to me ‘I will miss you’ you have been the apple of my eye and you are going away’…………..it shocked me I was all set on my plan.
It was not derailed though I saw it through but I felt deep down guilty………………I think that is why I quickly moved from No 24 to No 1 in the class and stayed there for the next 5 years. I felt I ‘owed’ him that I could do that for him make him feel it was not all ‘wasted’ I was coming good or doing good for him really. And then that finished and I dove in another direction I was all set up to become a doctor that would have pleased him but I balked……………….I could not keep on that treadmill
Anyway I don’t even know why I am going on about this I should be packing my bags but there is like this huge conflict between the my desire and even ‘bravery’ for the new and the pull of the old. The old never lets me go it has a powerful pull it seems in the end to always win out. It’s where loyalty and deep connection and love itself is to be found and yet it also the place all those things were lost and lost forever. Newness is just an attempt to mask it to try again, to find my own way but I am weak and not equipped I am not well ‘formed’ I will wither and die
This kind of ‘conflict’ is even playing out now today……………primal is the old, Dr Kruse is the new and my fantasy is I might be all to TELL him about the old and for him to hear me and then everything old and new, past and present and future can all be contained in one great big understanding……………….the kind of ‘understanding’ I felt from my Dad that day though it really surprised me. I suppose it would ‘surprise’ me also if Dr Kruse ‘understands’ me…………..
Thanks David. And I have to tell you this you being on here is a factor maybe even a big factor to allow me to be ‘vulnerable’ i have mostly felt for a long time now un-appreciated and mis-understood here. It doesn’t take much so to speak but I am craving that. Anyway don’t want to be too mawkish about it but I have found you a very refreshing voice on here and your interest in natural health and natural ways of healing is inspiring to me. I have often found a weird ‘conventionality’ among primal people something that does nothing for me. The very first night I arrived in LA in 1978 I went to this ‘primal house’ I know one of the guys from London and it hit me like a brick and the word was “Conventionality” and really like a lot of first impressions there was a huge truth in it. My instincts told me ‘run away’ but I was ‘all in’ I had paid the money and I BELIEVED…………….
Patrick: these last two comments of yours have shown to me, that you were talking about how you feel … instaead of what you think … that to me was so refreshing. That, as I peceive it, is Primal Therapy. Least-ways the beginnings of it. The rest, I contend, will follow … naturally.
I doubt that Jack Kruse will be persuaded by anything you say … he’s too far into his own; er … thinking. I also doubt that others on the cruise will even let you make those kind of suggestions … the general feeling within the group (I suspect) is that most have already bought into his whole concept, theory, principle or, what you will.
However meantime, enjoy the trip for what it is worth.
all this Kruse cruise talk, thought I’ d google his site. Looks like an avoid poor health through diet and exercise site. I expected some hokus pokus. I’ve long ago found sense in the Nutrition Science described by Dr. Peter J.D’ Adamo. He wrote the first science based nutrition protocols and some said, ” Hey Peter, science and nutrition don’t mix.
David – moi hocus pocus? Do I look like a hocus pocus kind of a dude? Maybe so. I would like to think it is quite a bit more than ‘diet and exercise’. He has said recently food is fundamentally not important and as for exercise he does not stress that either, he is more a ‘brainiac’ than a maniac so to speak. To me he has a LOT to teach and he’s just waiting for me to put the final touches on his ‘system’……………primal that is…………..sometimes I suffer from delusions of grandeur……………and we know where they come from THEIR OPPOSITE of course…………..delusions of grandeur = made to feel very un-important……………
Iwhat I meant to covey is , that was how I heard it typed and all my cursory peek found was what seems to be very common sense based.
I’ll visit again.
That’s cool……………did you watch/listen to the Little Feet song up a bit from here……………..if you go to 1:09 minutes check out that truck, if that is not like M.L. setup I don’t know what is . Only thing missing is the horse box/trailer. Cracked me up!
This is an oldie but goodie…………….I cry softly as I listen to it……………….so many sad ‘leavings’ I mean this is all very natural I wanted the new and was loyal to the old it should not be such a great conflict but it was…………..
OK last one and then I REALLY have to start packing my bags. This song conveys to me someone ‘bigger’ the singer is ‘big’ enough to care about or look after someone else (like me maybe as an example). Me I have never been that ‘big’ though I might have wanted to be I was always too caught up in myself too much a victim or I felt myself as the victim. Too much internal conflict and confusion to be able to really care about someone else. Anyway just a thought and of course I would still like to be that ‘big’ but well I’m not for the most part sad to say
OK packed my bags not such a big deal. Anyway I wanted to write a little bit about the murders in So Carolina. People here may remember in 2012 so the ones that are still around how much I liked and how inspired I felt by what I called the “Black Church” which was a Bible Study kind of a thing that was held once a week at a coffee shop. There was such a great feeling there really if I may say so I felt a kind of ‘fellowship’ and closeness to the people there I never felt in primal anyway I probably should stop saying things like that. Also I felt totally accepted by them even if I was the only ‘white guy’ there. Long way round of saying this church that was shot up some of the people and especially the women were talking about it on TV
They sound SO like the group I knew just really good people. One woman was describing how a fairly young boy don’t know what age stood in front of his Mother to ‘save’ her – they both died. The woman said he was awash with his Mother’s blood on the floor but so simply said “He was a good boy” It seemed almost matter of fact in a way like that’s what she expected of the boy.I feel like trying to find the group I used to go to and say to them “I was thinking about you” and just tell her how sorry I am for how bad white people can be. And apologize for all the nonsense and slavery and hardship they put blacks through and continue to this day
Maybe not a time to be ‘political’ about it but I can’t help thinking also even now this is the kind of slaughter the US dishes out every week with their drones and all the horrible wars they have un-leashed on the people of the MIddle East. Violence seems to be in this country top to bottom inside with the police etc and outside even worse. Even President Obama I am sure will do a good maybe call it PR job on this…………….more convincing would be if he made any kind of halt to US violence abroad but he does not.
Nice moral; gesture on your part Patrick… but the root of the problem lies way beyond even racism or that notion of the “other” be the other; gays, lesbians transgenders, blacks Native American’s and on and on. The Charleston alleged murderer was according to reports: hate-full. His psychological hate he transferred onto blacks and feebly justified that by “raping white women”.
What we need to study is why and where that hate came about … and NOT what the hate constitutes in legalese.
Where it possible (and that’s a remote notion) to go into his whole history from conception onward I am certain (and I fully expect Arthur Janov to write an article to this effect on his blog), that the very root of his hate would be revealed. Had the baby Dylann Roof been allowed the full expression of that initial hate/anger … there would never have occurred that transference onto blacks. Alas, we see and seek the problem from the wrong end … the present, rather than his past.
My white friends sold their winter home in S Carolina because they could not emotionally abide that white people there still teach their babies to hate black babies. His reported drug addiction would suggest the need to self medicate against imbedded pain.
A 16 year old Latino boy in SC, hands cuffed behind his back, was shot dead through his mouth in the back of a police cruiser. The officers thought he might have been a , ” missing child.” The state attorney general accepted the police report, “…suicide.”
Sick attitudes perpetuated through the generations also create outcomes.
David: This is a disaster that is shaking America. They real problem is:- will anything really change? If the history of the country is anything much to go by; the answer is perhaps little or nothing.
But my point was that, as Art is forever saying, until and unless we go into the history of the person, we will not find solutions … mere band aids. 😦 😦 😦 .
For the Colorado mass shooting , the movie theater case, I believe thedefense attorneys were arguing insanity. I’m not sure how that turned out,it may still be in process. The legal question hinges on whether the perpetratorcould tell right from wrong at the moment the crime was committed. The Coloradoshooter was on psych meds and did seem to be, as described, psychotic or close to it.But to me, with all of these crimes, whether they were planned or not the perpetratorsare insane, but not by any legal definition. Whether they know right from wrong doesn’tmatter. Their deep pain is driving them. It seems obvious that at the moment of the crime,any concept of right and wrong is submerged. Even during the planning stages of the crime.I was reading the story of this latest case and saw that victims families said that they forgave the shooter,in statements they made in court. This “forgiveness” seemed to be coming from theirstrong religious beliefs. I have been trying to imagine what statement I would make, if any,under similar circumstances. I haven’t come up with anything yet.This 21 year old boy is just the alleged shooter, but there doesn’t appear to be any doubt hedid it. I guess that’s why the victims families and surviving victims were allowed to make statements. Phil
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 04:55:12 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
This,” forgiveness,” also a feature of our Native community, is one of the most powerful weapons imported by the European invaders. A two headed promise, a better life in the, “afterlife,” and a sentence in imperpetuity for those refusing to accept subservience. Our courts and prison systems show that the latter is still implemented, now called justice rather than purgatory; ” purge + torious;”
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Int J Oncol. 2010 Feb;36(2):395-403.
Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells.
Frenkel M1, Mishra BM, Sen S, Yang P, Pawlus A, Vence L, Leblanc A, Cohen L, Banerji P, Banerji P.
Abstract:
The use of ultra-diluted Homeopathic products in the management of disease and treatment of cancer has generated a lot of interest and controversy. We conducted an in vitro study to determine if products prescribed by a Homeopathic Clinic in India do in fact have any effect on breast cancer cell lines. We studied four ultra-diluted Homeopathic remedies (Carcinosin, Phytolacca, Conium and Thuja) against two human breast adeno carcinoma cell lines (MCF-7 and MDA-MB-231) and a cell line derived from immortalized normal human mammary epithelial cells (HMLE). The remedies exerted preferential cytotoxic effects against the two breast cancer cell lines, causing cell cycle delay/arrest and apoptosis. These effects were accompanied by altered expression of the cell cycle regulatory proteins, including down regulation of phosphorylated Rb and up regulation of the CDK inhibitor p27, which were likely responsible for the cell cycle delay/arrest as well as induction of the apoptotic cascade that manifested in the activation of caspase 7 and cleavage of PARP in the treated cells. The findings demonstrate biological activity of these Homeopathic products when presented at even ultra-diluted doses. Further in-depth studies with additional cell lines and animal models are clearly warranted.
Interesting article David on an interesting subject. Thank you.
I tend to be a skeptic but with a cautiously open mind. Until now I’ve steered clear of homeopathic treatments, thinking of them as quackery. I haven’t read a theory yet of how homeopathic remedies work that makes sense to me. But on the advice of my naturopathic doctor who I trust for now I am taking a homeopathic medicine in the belief it will help me.
I believe skepticism is healthy and a sign of flexible thinking. I thought it was hogwash when first exposed. Hope the right remedy was chosen for you. The computer programs lighten the effort but the purists claim it cannot replace the observation skills of an excellent practitioner.
David, Positive results, and on that link you posted. With this one they would also have to prove it works in vivo, not just with cancer cell cultures. Thanks for finding all of this, I am impressed with it. Phil
THE INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF HOMEOPATHY
professor George Vithoulkas
23/ June /2015
Dear David,
The course Manish wrote to you concerning is finally a go. The prompts and early response is incredibly heartening. You are correct that Homeopathy needs to better represent itself and put out there for ongoing and continuous scientific validation.
George
Difficult Cases with in Depth Analysis Postgraduate Course
September 21st – 25th, 2015
Language: English – Portuguese (simultaneous translation)
Teachers: Prof. George Vithoulkas and Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa
The lectures consist of Live Cases, case-taking, analysis, evaluation, prescribing strategies, comparison of remedies, Homeopathic Philosophy and in-depth insight into the difficulties encountered in Homeopathic practice based on Prof. Vithoulkas’ 55 years of experience.
There will be further discussion on decision-making concerning the “Levels of Health” and the dosage and potency of the homeopathic remedy indicated, not only based on health status, but also in line with several other essential parameters that the physician should consider. Professor George Vithoulkas emphasizes the comparison of Materia Medica, presents new ideas that enhance awareness and understanding regarding the function of the human body, healthy or not.
Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa del Toro , MD, PHd(Medical Doctor and Moderator of IACH) will also teach and explain the Theory of “Levels of Health” and “The 22 Observations of the possible reactions of the organism during the homeopathic treatment.”
Daily schedule
09:30 to 11:00 Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa
11:00 to 11:30 Break
11:30 to 13:00 Prof. George Vithoulkas
5:00 p.m. to 18:30 Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa
18:30 to 19:00 Break
19:00 to 20:30 Prof. George Vithoulkas
This course can be attended by scientists of biology, physics, chemistry, biochemistry and related sciences. This is done with the purpose to open up areas of research for all questions related to scientific proof of homeopathy.
Information and Booking: Mrs Evgenia Mitsaki, Secretary of International Academy of Classical Homeopathy, tel. +30 24240 65142, email: academy@vithoulkas.com
Traumeel helps relieve pain, i forget the homeopathic drug in it.Our vet uses accupuncture on my old dog and it calms him down. The vet tech rubbed the old dogs accupressure points on his head and he relaxed. Primal Therapy is similar to homeopathics, in that most Western doctors think all of the above is lunacy.Also Tranquility Blend ( some brand name containing Paws in it) helps put the old dog to sleep. I am too lazy to get up to find out detailed info, and I could really use a homeopathic to stop my progression of alzhiemers or oldtimers or overwork-related stress. You know what, opium is probably a homeopathic, or at least a “NATURAL” remedy. Wish I had some.
The Homeopaethically prepared ingredients of Traumeel have been used for many years for therapeutic purposes, such as for pain (Atropa belladonna), inflammation (Echinacea), bruising (Arnica montana), wound healing (Matricaria recutita, Calendula officinalis), bleeding (Achillea millefolium), edema (Mercurius solubilis), and infections (Hepar sulfuris). Based on such observations, Traumeel was developed by the German physician, Dr Hans-Heinrich Reckeweg,MD, in the 1930s; he combined botanical and mineral substances to produce this natural medicine to treat musculoskeletal injuries and inflammation.
In 2008 I experienced a collapsed artery and an emergency admission. Assessment at The QE 11 Hospital, Hlfx, was performed and I was advised that I had incurred between 60 and 70 % heart muscle damage. Knowing that meant the equivalence of bruised muscle I phoned a Naturopath who also Practices Homeopathy from Intensive Care and asked she bring me an appropriate Homeopathic Remedy. The earlier the intervention the better. We agreed on a single dose 2000x Arnica, ( Arnica is a component in Traumeel,) Remedy. The Cardiac team placed a medicated stent to support the collapsed but clear artery. I was told I would have to observe restricted mobility for 6 months and a very cautious prognosis was suggested. A month later, once my incision was healed and dangers of blood clotting was past, I was back on my mountain bike and cardiac testing/echo grams/tread mill stressing, showed there was nearly 0 residual heart muscle damage; a nearly non discernible quiver. The caridiologist repeated the tests 3 times out of disbelief.
I used to suggest Traumeel to patients with satisfactory results for muscle related injury, sprain, strain and stubborn myofascial pain and release point therapy. I had a patient use it for Bells Palsy, the attack occurred on a Sunday and it was all he had on hand, with total satisfactory effect.
You are correct, Homeopathy is a choice in advanced European Medical treatment centres. Many pharmacies in Canada have Homeopathic Materia Medicas and Repertories and pharmacists who are knowledgeable in prescribing. It removes the , “man behind the curtain,” coveting of medicine when patients are involved in their treatment. It’s just respectful.
David: Your excursion into homeopathy caused me to look it up and the definition I found was :- “a system for treating illnesses that uses very small amounts of substances that would in larger amounts produce symptoms of the illnesses in healthy people”
I was always under the impression that it relied on natural herbal medications and as such it incorporated many of the other ingredients of those herbs. Whereas the pharmacology isolates the active ingredients and hence leave the body open to side effects, IMO..
In my childhood there was no ‘ Free National Health System’ in the UK (that came about later, after 1945 with the Socialist Government). During my childhood we were quite poor and going to the doctor was an expense my mother tried to avoid by treating us with herbal remedies; there being a herb shop and herbalist close to our home. We as kids hated my mothers herbal remedies, most of them bitter and nasty tasting, but my mother did manage to keep us relatively healthy (except for the xymatic diseases of childhood:- measles, chicken pox, mumps and whooping cough; then my father had to borrow money in order to call the doctor.
I am not sure if these remedies would fall under the category of Homeopathy; but they sure did keeps us very healthy as kids. Where I would draw the line between the real health (as I deem it) with ‘fully-feeling’, and ‘medicines’ whether herbal or pharmacology, is that is an attempt to cure the problem, after it has manifested itself. Not that I would denounce them, but my emphasis these days is on prevention in the first place. AND that, for me is:- via feelings and their appropriate expression.
In the 1780’s Samuel Hannehmann, MD, while treating a patient for malaria accidentally took quinine powder, mistaking it for his own headache powder. He recorded and later reports that he developed all of the symptoms of malaria which subsided relatively quickly. He repeated that experiment on himself many times with the same result. He then recruited volunteers and repeated it on them, same result. He then experimented with malaria patients and found as he decreased the dose of quinine the recovery was quicker. Those doses became less and less until a miniscule dose, he found, was the most efficacious. Since then thousands of substances, plant, animal, mineral known to cause certain symptoms if consumed have been catalogued. To make a homeopathic remedy a substance is dissolved in pure alcohol. It is then succussed a certain number of times. The liquid is referred to as the mother tincture. And here is where the voodoo comes in. Which Stephen Hawkings says is understandable by the laws of advanced physics. One drop of the mother tincture is added to a gallon of water, and it is succussed 100 times. This may be repeated many times until none of the original material is discernible by chemical analysis.
Hawking says everything has a vibronic/by vibration imprint. The color blue has different vibrations
than red; the same as an open D string on a guitar sounds different than an open E, different number of vibrations. The experience of Homeopathic scientists over 330 years is that the more the remedy is diluted the stronger the therapeutic effect.
Give that remedy, the source of which in it’s full state would cause certain symptoms in a healthy person, to a person with the same symptom, and health is restored. Homeopaths have to study and engage in supervised clinical work for many years before certified as Practitioners. Like any profession, some are gifted, some are great and some are less so.
I used the Homeopathic remedy Coffea, made from coffee bean, to treat severe hyperactivity, a remedy made from a plant that will causes bladder incontinence in children, will stop bed wetting; yet is ineffective with elderly; the remedy that counters incontinence in the elderly has no effect on children. A remedy from a plant that causes a hemophilia response will stop bleeding. Comfrey, made into a homeopathic form will heal broken bones. The Native Indians were using it when the Europeans arrived. A dilution of comfrey root dripped onto a gash will close it like it has been sutured, in minutes. These things I have seen, adults, children, babies, large and small animals. When my mother in law’s Corgi was diagnosed by her vet as paralyzed in the hind quarters, I was given the task of taking her to be euthanized. The night before I gave her, 30CH, each, Arnica for pain, Causticum and Gelsemium for paralysis and all I can tell you Jack is minutes later Taffy was up, tail wagging, and barking to go out to pee. An abused horse with heaves, calves with scours, one calf that was simply dying and her little face was so contorted with pain. I recently was reintroduced to now a young woman who at over a year old couldn’t sit, or hold her head up, let alone stand. 3 minutes, she sat straight and held her head up. Her mom’s GP and the clinic psychometrist had pronounced her severely mentally retarded, destined for a , ” Children’s Home.” She is self supporting, quite lovely, and normally mobile.
I thought Homeopathy was whacky shit crazy when I was first introduced to it by a medical doctor. I’m a believer now. And when I read Dr. Janov’s ongoing research I can see where it fits in, epigentics, Janov and D’Adamo; the ability to turn bad gene expression off and good gene expression on, methylation, which Naturopathic scientists have been studying for 2 decades, originally laughed at by conventional researchers. Primal is supposed to be impossible. We know different. I was reading Dr. Janov yesterday. He was saying, and I paraphrase, ” we’ve been looking in the wrong places.” “That’s why addiction, high blood pressure, cancers, dementias haven’t been figured out.” He didn’t say it out and out but between the lines, dementia so closely parallels the process of the primal process, back to infancy, and then ceasing to be, death; only dementia patients don’t come back to the present the way patients do after a primal experience. What if that holds the key to dementia recovery, Jack ??? When I read Dr. Janov,’s blog I get emotionally excited and wish I were a younger man, with my whole life ahead of me. I believe Dr. Janov when he writes that we are just on the doorstep of learning so much about the human condition.
If we don’t destroy our home planet first….
And I’m much less elitist these years. Whatever works to bring peace of mind… , ” Let it be…”
Jack, I agree that prevention is the best thing but that isn’t always possible, I think, even with the expression of feelings. We all eventually get sick with something. As a child I was plagued with a lot of allergies, dust, ragweed, and other things. I was hospitalized for pneumonia. I was rather sickly. I am healthier now and attribute it to success getting to deep feelings in recent years. My blood pressure used to be borderline high and it stays in a low normal range now. There are probably other reasons such as exercising and diet, but it is all related. If I’m feeling lousy I can’t be bothered trying to be healthy. Phil
BIG AGREE from me Jack, Prevention. Arthur speaks so gently to moms and dads in the Life Before Birth interview, asking them to get along, stay together during pregnancies, give that developing baby the best uterine environment possible. I was so touched how gentle he was.
David: On thinking about what you wrote on homeopathy I later came to the notion that perhaps homeopathy was the fore-runner to what enable the medical profession to hit on the idea that: inject the dead virus and bacteria into the body causing the white cells (the major ingredient to body immunity), was thought up. Not usre if the origniators of that idea brought it from the homeopathy notions of letting the body guard itself against infection via the white cells, imunity.
I wonder at this stage, if Patrick would be against even that since it’s sort of the same priciple … infusing drugs etc into the body to precipitate an imunity against infections.
Following on from Phil’s comment: I do see if our childhoods and womb-life did not get what we needed then it would seem natural that the medical profession sought out pharmacological remedies. It is my main complaint against the medical profession that it is ever “fighting the war after it is began” rather than the prevention of the war in the first place.
How that may be brought about within the civilization as it presently exist; I am not sure how we procede. My contentions have for a number of years now, remained with the simplest concept I have been aware of, and that was the abolition of money and all forms of exchange. However, for all the simplicity of the concept; I am fully aware of the enormous difficulty of it’s implimentation. “C’est la vie” for now.
Jack, What’s interesting to realize is that vaccination isn’t entirely an invention of modern medicine.I read that the Chinese were already vaccinating for small pox during the 10th century. They inoculated people through the nose with material from small pox lesions. A little later people in Africa and Indiawere also already vaccinating for small pox. Europe didn’t catch on to this until late in the 18th century.Phil Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 22:35:02 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – IF (and I do emphasize that) indeed they did that has little or nothing in common with the modern phenomenon called ‘vaccination’. To me it sounds like typical ‘propaganda’ to make it all seem nice and ‘normal’. To me there is absolutely NOTHING ‘normal’ about it.
Anyway HI to everybody, it wouldn’t be me if I was not ‘arguing’ I have to admit that. Everything is so nice and happy without me it seems. Anyway I am what I am is all I can say. I am having a kind of amazing week on the Kruse Cruise, I am so happy I came. BUT I am ‘arguing’ with them/him a bit also. Trying to explain that primal has an important part of the puzzle…………………………………..anyway not really getting far with that which I suspected would be the case but you know me tilting at even bigger windmills!
Gotta go as this costs a dollar a minute (from the boat)
Quite a different mechanism. The goal there is to have the immune system recognize and mount an ongoing defence,There are specific Homeopathic preparations for communicable diseases. The remedies are in the 10’s of thousands, each proved by countless expert Homeopaths worldwide, repertorized for the symptoms it will remedy and cross referenced for compatibility with other remedies. Some remedies will actually antidote other remedies. Sometimes more than one remedy is required and there is a proven order.
When the Europeans landed here, the Aboriginals had a sophisticated plant based pharmacology. Some tribes practiced birth control, including temporary and permanent sterility by utilizing different strengths of the herb , “Indian Turnip.” They were using analgesics, using porcupine quills dipped in herbals to cause superficial anesthesia, sort of like acupuncture, or puncturing the skin and injecting muscles to perform certain surgeries. They understood the circulatory system and that the heart was the pump.
Late thought…: homeopathy was once the major medical art in North America. It’s reputation was established on the great success it had in curing the major communicable diseases. There were 22 major Homeopathic Medical Schools in the USA, and hospitals. It took me awhile to learn how to search for it’s successes as there has been a massive attempt to discredit it as lunacy, much the same as the attack on Primal by conventional medicine.
There is a homeopathic remedy prepared from opium. However it would not induce anesthesia rather treat the symptoms consistent with opium use. My Materia Medica describes the remedy:
Opium (Op.): The homeopathic remedy prepared from opium is more useful for emotional shock in which the person looks and acts like a ‘stunned mullet’. They are withdrawn, respond poorly to what is happening around them, and have a dazed, besotted expression.
>
> yesterday went to our mom’s place to celebrate my birthday.
> I was a bit apprehensive it would not be relaxed and nice, but it actually turned out to be more or less pleasant this year.
>
> mom had not forgotten to buy a birthday cake, like she did last year, after numerous calls to me about which day and what and when and the same all over x 10 times in one afternoon..
>
> and this year, she started asking me again over and over if she had already given me an envelop with some money, but after say the seventh time or so I could break the loop by telling her that if she asked me again I’d say no, and end up walking out in the evening with a lot of money in my pocket.
> that made her and my brother laugh, and she calmed down about it.
>
> I called her in the evening to remind her she needed to hang up the load of laundry we had put in the machine for her, and she actually told me out of the blue she loves me, which is very nice.
>
> so besides all the irritation and old stuff, we still manage to stay in touch with the warm feelings as well.
>
>
> still no news about the statistics at all, hmm, brrr…
> M
ha, Phil, much more than a relief, euforia comes closer, smiiiiley!!!
> feels so important, not only for me but also for my fabulous teacher !!
> I seem to have passed even without taking in considerations the software problems with 5 of the questions, so that feels even better, under better circumstances still would have been even better, and it is nice too now we can still use this to improve the software settings (for the next 5 exams, ha!)
>
> am so happy about this, thank heavens there is the blog to share this with, is still off the record so I can’t tell fellow students..
>
> haaa, momentary slight extacy mmmm best feeling of achievment of all exams,,by far, no wonder after all the preparing work we did, feel so specially happy for my teacher, really, would have felt worst for him if I would not have passed!
>
> too bad my best friends here are abroad for three weeks, want to celebrate!!
> M
Congratulations Margaret. That is a major achievement, especially given the so many doubts and hurdles that you overcame. It will be interesting to see what you eventually learn from all this, besides the course material. Happy Birthday.
> thanks Jack, that is a nice way to look at it!
> it is so good to really have something I feel proud about, this course was such a challenge compared to the other courses. 5 more modules of it to go, smiley..
>
> and only 35 more modules of all kind of courses only for the bachelor ha!
> and then the rest after that, won’t be bored for a while, smiley..
> M
Hi Margaret
Happy, happy Birthday. Many happy returns. Glad to hear your mum stepped up and made it pleasant for you.
And congratulations for your educational accomplishment. That is major achievement.
You have perseverance and you are goal orientated. It paid off. Big time.
Tom
Happy, Happy Birthday Margaret! Could not have thought of a better gift for you – than your hard work, determination and brains (not necessarily in that order either!) paying off.
Congratulations!
Enjoy this proud and happy time!
ox L.
Always a oneupper in the crowd. We all said, Happy Birthday, to Margaret now, here’s a Happy, Happy, Birthday, from Leslie… hah hah hah !!!!! exclamation marks, Maggie.
> thanks Leslie, David, Larry, Tom!
> I notice how ‘feeling good’ about myself expresses much more the feeling than ‘feeling proud’ actually.
> it seems to be a healing from not feeling good about myself, a regain of some basic self-confidence, in part.
>
> some of the shame about ‘failures’ and stupid actions and decisions in my life gets resolved I guess..
>
> thanks to all of you, also Miguel, Jack and Phil of course…
> M
> hi Patrick,
> haha, yes, have you always argued, also as a little boy?
> and love to us all, that’s nice, seabreeze must be good for you, am curious as to how things will work out there.
> hope you have some good times, M
Margaret, I am my health is 95% better thanks, but I am not back to normal. I am down to 1/4 of the gradually diminishing initial prescription dose. I don’t know whether it’s due to the drug or the disorder, but I’d become weak and very short of breath. I’d considered I might not be fit enough to go to the retreat. This past Thursday though my breathing became more normal, and on Friday at the gym I felt with relief I was finally approaching somewhat closer to my normal level of fitness.
But as of last Wednesday I’ve been having small flareups in some small muscle groups. It started with my neck bothering me on Wednesday evening for no obvious reason. The ache lasted overnight and was more intense when I arose on Thursday morning. As I awoke to the pain I became very anxious that the symptoms of the disorder would return in full force and plague me forever.
What is interesting from a primal perspective, is that I became scared and then angry at the disorder and that it might cripple my life. I spontaneously, reflexively, angrily pounded pillows and cushions, pissed at the disorder and defying it. Pretty quickly the anger drifted to being pissed that the disorder will hold me back from life, and then drifted to anger that I’m holding myself back from life because of feeling afraid and alone, and then drifted to anger at my parents, particularly my Dad, when from being a small boy I was scared and alone and needed connection with him but he was stone cold distant and out of touch, I’m angry that his insensitivity and indifference allowed for an impossible to cope with gaping hole of fear and aloneness in me that blighted my entire life. I’m angry that the fear and aloneness could overwhelm me still today, and I need to fight against it, fight for myself, to make something of my life. I’m angry that I’m needlessly burdened with such difficult hurdles that I might let hold me back. Interestingly, after I got through some anger and cried some need for him, to my physical and emotional relief my muscle soreness and inflammation abated for a few days. It seems to be back again though, troubling me with transient soreness in feet or hands or neck. I think before I fly to LA I better talk to my doctor again about my prescription dosage.
My hope is that my brain is creating the physical symptoms to distract me from becoming conscious of deep emotional pain, and that eventual connection with the emotional pain will reduce or eliminate the need for my brain to generate the distracting physical symptoms. I do notice an internal shift in my psyche, towards accepting in a deeper way that yes I am alone and afraid in the present and deep in the fiber of my being, and only I can do something about it, specifically I have to push beyond/despite the fears and aloneness and do what feels impossible and hope I can fill my life and make it better for me. It seems to me that otherwise I will be paralysed not just by my fear, but by the immune system disorder attacking my muscles.
A powerful, moving book of historical fiction that I’ve been reading helped me to sink into awareness and feelings of the unfair burden of my fears and emptiness and my anger over it and into ultimately crying my deep need for my parents, especially for my Dad. The book is Sarah’s Key by Tatiana de Rosnay. The tragic loss suffered by the innocent 10 year old girl is real and heart rending, a grossly unfair burden she bravely strives to survive, a burden she of course can never entirely escape and that callously and indifferently diminishes her innocent life. It is historical fiction. It is real. Near the end of the book my sobbing rose up in empathy for her, and in my sobbing I then saw myself and my truth I can never escape from, except to open up to and confront and accept head on, as much as I can a little at a time.
The gay marriage issue seemingly is settled: but what does it actually mean for me, a gay man cohabiting with my lover/companion of 34 years? I am not quite sure.
For the gay community as a whole I am pleased for all of us. It gives us finally, legal status previously only afforded heterosexual couples. That’s great, but for me there is a broader issue … Does it mean that we can feel safer out there in the world? Not sure, for the moment at least … does it mean that now gay couples will flaunt their new found freedom?. I sure hope not … does it mean there will be less discrimination? … for the moment, I doubt it, … but it does pave the way for the younger generation. I feel, it’s no big deal being gay, straight, red haired, brown eyed, tall, short, male, female or, any other difference there might be between us … as humans??
I do feel that the biblical scriptures that have denounced homosexuality (man laying with man) have perhaps been dealt a great blow to it’s validity. That I feel in the long run will invalidate much of all the mono-theism’s ‘raison d’etre’.
However, one last thought that might bring me some flack from other gays and lesbians:- Whatever way it is looked at, there is nothing “normal” about homosexuality. It a product, or a result of, trauma … in the womb IMO. That is not to say that it could or should be reversible.
I am totally unqualified to make comment on this issue, Jack, of which you are expert, but your thoughts mirror my own. I think,( IMHO,) that regardless of country, that the, “… old, fat white white, ” power brokers, regardless of their race, gender, sexual preferences, run the show to their advantage. The rest of us are allowed to exist in a descending order of privileges according to our colors, assortment of identities, and assumed threat to the ownership of the booty and the enabling rules of regime of the, ” rulers.” I have given up using my pea sized brain analyzing how it is to their advantage when small, ” improvements,” are permitted to come to be, sexual preference, re-legalizing cannabis, ending slavery. The Civil War is flagged as ending slavery, yet the federal gov’t of the North ensured that it continued for nearly another 80 years. The prison system was, and is, much more efficient that the slave barns. There are a myriad of other examples, the illegal Mexican work force; child sweat shops, and the abuse of the immigrant, illegal and applicants in waiting work force in Canada including the piece work textile cottage industry, where women are largely targeted. Not to mention how, “we,” run , ” our,” slave trade in the offshore economies.
It occurs to me that I just answered my question to myself as to why I have not been in a feeling marathon for the past couple of weeks, I’m more back in my head. The comfort of refuge…. hah
Lifted this off of a site on Health and Epigenetics and how choice of foods need to be tailored to our individual blood types, otherwise lectins in foods affect us and trigger disease responses. Anyway found this interesting.
Why Personalized Nutrition Matters June 27, 2015Blood Type Diet, Blood Type Physiology,
How many advertisements for the latest diet fad have you read that started like this…
healthydigestion
“I’ve tried every diet out there and nothing worked until I found FILL IN ANY DIET NAME HERE.”
The person in the ad then went on to tell you why this new diet worked for them when nothing did before. If you know anything about personalized nutrition, it’s not surprising that nothing else worked for them – the other diets simply weren’t compatible with their blood type. Finding the right nutrition program for you can involve years of trial and error, or, you can make it simple and follow your Blood Type Diet. It’s really that easy – personalized nutrition matters.
Why?
This is the question that is at the heart of the genetic puzzle. It is also central to our exploration of blood types. The key is genetic heritage – the story line of your life. Even though you are living in the 21st century, you share a common bond with your ancestors. The genetic information that resulted in their particular characteristics has been passed on to you. People who are O blood type have a different set of characteristics than people who are Type B or Type A – they are susceptible to different diseases, they should eat different foods and exercise in a completely different manner
The Lectin Connection
Foods and supplements contain lectins that interact with your cells depending on your blood type. This explains why some nutrients which are beneficial to one blood type, may be harmful to the cells of another. Simply put, when you eat a food containing protein lectins that are incompatible with your blood type antigen, the lectins target an organ or bodily system (kidneys, liver, gut, stomach, etc.) and can begin to interact with the tissues in that area.
Digest This
There is surprising evidence that many of the bacteria in your microbiome like to ‘eat right for their blood type.’ Our blood type antigens are actually prominent in your digestive tract and, in about 80% of individuals, are prominent in the mucus that lines your digestive tract. Because of this, many of the bacteria in your digestive tract actually use your blood type as a preferred food supply. In fact, blood group specificity is common among intestinal bacteria with almost 50% of strains tested showing some blood type A, B, or O specificity.
Disease Susceptibility
Numerous scientific studies have linked blood type with a predisposition to many diseases including; cancer, ulcers, thyroid disease, autoimmune diseases, and cognitive diseases. Eating the right foods and living a healthy lifestyle may help to counteract those diseases.
Stress Response
People of different blood types have different responses to stress. For example, Type O ancestry causes an immediate “fight or flight” response in people of this blood type. However, this finely tuned response to stress, so vital in early Type O’s, is not always so beneficial in modern times. The Type O response can cause bouts of excessive anger, temper tantrums, hyperactivity and even create a severe enough chemical imbalance to bring about a manic episode. Since there is a powerful, synergistic relationship between the release of dopamine and feelings of reward, Type O is more vulnerable to destructive behaviors when overly tired, depressed or bored. These can include gambling, sensation seeking, risk taking, substance abuse and impulsivity. Type As have a naturally high level of the stress hormone cortisol and produce more in response to stressful situations. Due to the naturally elevated cortisol in type As, additional stress often manifests in several ways; disrupted sleep patterns, daytime brain fog, increased blood viscosity (thickening), and promotes muscle loss and fat gain. In extreme cases in Type As, stress can manifest in more serious ways, causing obsessive-compulsive disorder, insulin resistance and hypothyroidism.
Crying not suire why. Scarlet Begoinias. Donna girl singing maybe tripped me off. dead mom. dead friend who probably tried to play the dead on his guiitar for me. mom who played music for me.. impendfling dead dog. miss the institute. never got into the dead before, lately l9istdning to them more and more. z is out somewherre, only reason i can dare to feel.
missed out on the whole grateful dead era. missed out on the dancing and loving. just got the drugs and missed out on everything else. lonely lonely lonely
I just got home, it’s strange so many aspects and feelings relating to all that I experienced the last week and it’s like to-day travelling back to LA I ‘imagine’ myself writing about this and that aspect not about it overall that feels like too much. And now I don’t seem to have a thought in my head, tired also I suppose.
Anyway it seemed worth saying I imagined voicing it out to the blog………………maybe also because I don’t have anyone I am REALLY close to so the blog it will have to be. I will write as things pop into my head……………..
Can’t sleep so well…..restless and I suppose a bit jet lagged though only a 2 hour difference. Part of me thinks who am I kidding I mean the idea that ‘here’ is a place I can kind of let down and just say and say…………..I have burned too many bridges why should people listen or care………….but it would be nice to have that kind of a place. I suppose I could but I tend to alienate and ruin things.
I didn’t hear this first hand for myself but Dr Kruse (afterwards known as Dr K) though in person is very friendly and outgoing and likes to see the funny side of things has kind of a very dark vision of humans and where we are going. A lot of his stuff is based around the idea the world is deteriorating and fast and he is trying to give ‘tips’ on how to survive or make it through as he sees it the ongoing “6th Extinction Event” which is a title of a book that came out last year written by Elizabeth Kolbert which I read recently. Let’s say it’s pretty much up there in my ‘gloom and doom’ ones ahead of JH Kunstler even.
Anyway I do follow the news but being off the grid for a week I didn’t and coming back and seeing more and more random killings or not ‘random’ as the case maybe. There was the S. Carolina one before I left and reading the papers yesterday Tunisia and other stuff in the Middle East. And on the ‘positive’ as we like to think it is at least we can only stack up things like gay marriage and obamacare. Little ‘patches’ or band aids on an ongoing disaster. OK this is what I did not hear directly from him but someone there did and he supposedly said if humans are to have any chance of truly turning things around and developing a new and sustainable future the population will need to be ‘thinned down’ to around 150,000 total worldwide
I don’t know the context of this or is it that the world is so over-taxed that it can only support about that many and maybe we heed such a massive shock and die off to change. I really don’t know………….but it’s the kind of thing that resonates with me and instinctively makes sense to me. And coming back here to LA and the heat and not being able to sleep it feels right even if it also feels pretty wrong if I am making any kind of sense at all. Anyway though as I say deep down very gloomy the guy is a lot of fun as you might get the impression here he is the main character in the glasses and I feature here too if you scroll down. He seems to like me even though I push back with him more than most like trying to say ‘primal’ is important. He is not there yet if he ever will be……………….looking at those pictures it’s like what is left from the ’60’s which sadly is not very much
Dr K is not a ‘guru’ to me I don’t think I am capable of really believing in gurus…………but on a certain level I suppose. I need a daddy figure or most correctly I really needed a daddy which my dad was in many ways………….anyway looking at the pictures I like that he put me first not that I am ‘first’ with him at all. There are other people ‘smarter’ than me or at least I give them that………….I never feel so ‘smart’ anyway I shed a tear looking at those and it’s partly because he put me ‘first’ I always was first in my class at school because I deep down felt I was ‘last’. I am known there a bit from my ‘jokes’ and sometimes a bit serious too that he is fomenting a ‘cult’ (that word again)………but he rides it pretty good and I really like the way he can take a push back or even a punch and not be all ‘hurt’ or resentful or out to hurt me back. He is 1/4 Irish and I think he feels that in common with me too, he knows we can get like that and no hard feelings will be left over. I am crying a little as I write this…………….that is what I have always wanted…………
He says he is 3/4 German and 1/4 Irish…………..and I said at one of the meetings that kind of sums him up in certain ways. The German part is the great thinker and system builder reminds of me of the great German philosophers I loved as a young man (Kant, Hegel, Heidegger etc etc) some really great ‘minds’ and the Irish part is the bit that wants to give it all away for free, just because and because he cares. And he knows that the world needs it and it might help the ‘common good’. I am crying as I write this I suppose he is a bit of a ‘guru’ anyway no big deal……………………
rry,
> sorry to hear your health still goes up and down, that must be very stressful..
> hope you make it sound and safe to the retreat and that dealing with your feelings helps you with getting better soon!
> good you are about to doublecheck with your doctor too.
>
> will miss you all and will miss not being there myself, so you retreaters, it would be very very nice if you keep us posted a bit from time to time, smiley..
> wouldn’t it be an idea to try out a group through skype, that must be possible imo, using it kind of like a conference call, with a therapist to moderate..
> would be an interesting experiment, not quite the same but still with its own qualities and accessible and cheap for the ones living far away!
>
> hi Patrick off te boat,
> M
For me the retreats have always been a rich and helpful experience, yet I never totally look forward to going to them. As this one approaches, I almost feel ill about the thought of going. Retreats can be rewarding, but only if you are willing to grapple with your fears there. Not looking forward to it.
Some things happened to/for me on this trip…………….like crying several times in different situations. The first one was the first ‘session’ actually meeting where all (around 32 people) were to introduce themselves. I was one of the last to speak and having listened to a lot of the others it’s like I wanted to do something a bit different. Like people would typically say how and when they heard of Dr K. I thought I want to do something a bit ‘more’ or different even work primal into it
But it starts to feel all too much so much to get out how do I introduce topics especially primal etc. Anyway my turn comes and I go like ‘I’m not sure where to start’. Dr K says ‘why don’t you start at the beginning” Wham! I start sobbing like that’s a big question I try to talk but basically can’t crying and I mumble out ‘I can’t do this’ Dr K says ‘that’s ok’ and just moves on to the next person. I feel like such a child I could not speak I literally could not. Over time I start to calm down and listen to the others. I’m thinking I feel I have so much to say but the more there is the more impossible or huge it feels. Then I’m thinking I can’t just let this go, I can’t walk out of that room and not have spoken the ONLY one with that problem
So I wait until everyone is done and I put up my hand and say I have to speak I can’t just leave it like this. And then I was OK I was able to talk about about how ‘primitive’ I felt compared to most of them there. There are several doctors lots of IT people or ex IT people as most of them want to get away from it and even blame a lot of their health issues on excessive IT especially if they work in the field. I mention how they all want to get back to a simpler life and I talk about how I HAD that I mean as a child. No electricity until 4 y.o. no running water of showers or baths for that matter until I was 9 y.o. How in our different ways we are all trying to get back to that ‘simple’ life that I had but did not value. We were ashamed of ourselves growing up just a bunch of dirty peasants and yet that is what we all want now. How I felt inadequacy compared to a lot of the others but how I want to hold onto and get back to my ‘primitive’ ways and state.
I talk a bit about primal I mentioned earlier here when I met Dr K in March I gave him Janov’s “Life Before Birth” and I ask him has he any opinion on it. Dr K says he does but it’s too early to say he does not want to say something that might be wrong. He thinks Janov has something but does he think there is also some ‘bullshit’ in it?. Yes he does he says but he is still thinking about it is not prepared or able to say much now. But he will he has taken the fact I gave him that book seriously. I mention the German/Irish connection and just kind of chat and bullshit but I felt good that I came back did not walk out of the room with my tail between my legs so to speak. Somebody said it was good I cried being vulnerable is fine and so on.
Not much of a story really but that was the first day and I felt good about it. Later the next day I run into Dr K and he says he thought it was so good first that I could be vulnerable like that but also the fact I came back. How he liked the way I did not give up but bounced back. I have had this image of myself several times before like I am a turnip (peasant food) in a vat of water and something just pounds me on the head with a big stick but being a turnip I come back to the surface for some more (another blow). But I keep coming back some people might call that a ‘struggle’ but that seems to lie beneath a lot of my ‘fighting’ I bounce back I HAVE to bounce back otherwise I will die……………..it feels like my ‘fighting’ is overlaid on some earlier ‘survival’ situations. Anyway enough for now
Patrick, I would suppose it’s your experience with primal that made it possible for you you cry in front of the group on the cruise. Maybe you’ve gotten more benefits from therapy than you think. Phil
It’s interesting (to me at least) Dr K posted his impressions of the week 50 of them and 2 of them mentioned me. First one was “11. Patrick not giving up, but digging deeper”. That I am sure refers to what I talked about before. The other impression was “39. Patrick in deep need for an orange robe………..all week”
Orange robe is another name for ‘cults’ and I was ‘joking’ about that and at times ‘serious’ too. LIke me and my roomate on the trip started a whole joking thing about that. How do you spot a “Kruiser” they DO wear orange glasses at night to screen out bright lights I do that too……………..anyway the boat has about 3,000 people on it and there were 32 of “us” so I would joke how ‘practical’ it would be if we all wore orange robes. We could spot each other so easily. So I would go on about how it was a ‘practical’ problem I was trying to solve
Anyway that aside……………..I think he picks up on something there like I am the one with a concern about ‘cults’ but really I am the cult member the one who needs the orange robes. Also the fact he says “all week” like I did not relax or be able to go with the flow which is basically true.
It’s interesting also there is a retreat going on this week which I am not going to or really have no desire to …………………but it’s like I am ‘doing’ a retreat where it is not really wanted or understood……………….there is some deep alienation there I feel ‘safer’ with strangers than with my own type…………….there I feel stifled I want to voyage away somewhere where it will the a challenge the result is in deep doubt……………..I do not feel at home anywhere…………….I am “a traveler between two worlds one dead the other powerless to be born”………….that’s a quote I did not write that Matthew Arnold I think……………
When my Mom was dying she told me the story about my birth or really the day I was born. It was August time to ‘bring in the hay’. They would ‘save’ the hay and put in these big piles we call them ‘winds’ not sure if that is even a word or spelled correctly maybe ‘wydnes’. These would be out in the fields and left there for maybe a few months it did something to the hay, allowed it to cool off or something.
But a VERY big day on the farm would be ‘bringing in the hay’ that is putting it in place for the winter where literally the animals would live off of it until the Spring and Summer came. It was the main food store for the animals for the coming Winter and it goes without saying how important it was. In later years that I can remember we had a ‘shed’ or what would be here called a ‘barn’ so bringing the hay in there would not be such a problem, just wait for a good weather day and bring it in. But the things is in 1952 the year I was born my Dad did not have a hay shed. He just had to make a bigger pile outside and protect it against rain etc with some kind of thatch roof. Many of the other farmers though ‘poorer’ than my Dad had a shed even my Mom’s people poorer and more ‘primitive’ than my Dad had one. A bit typical of my Dad he had a car which almost nobody else except the priest and the doctor had. He was kind of ‘big shot’ in his own mind (remind you of anyone lol) but kind of deficient in basic things. And that was one of the (many) things that irritated my Mom about him. Kind of a dreamy impractical person unlike her.
So the big day is bringing in the hay……………..my Dad has organized a bunch or neighbors/workers to help him it’s a big job needs a lot of work. Anyway everything is laid out whatever they put on the ground etc……………..and disaster of disasters it starts to rain. This is a major problem some of the hay it already on the ground problem can be solved I suppose put some kind of ‘tarp’ on it do they have ‘tarps’? they have something I suppose and there is the issue of the workers send them home whatever just a kind of big problem
Another ‘problem’ announces itself in the form of me inside my Mom announcing my intention to be born in the form of a massive pain (to her). So it’s a ‘medical emergency’ for her she needs to be taken to the Hospital 20 miles away. But my Dad HAS a car and somehow he deals with the workers and the hay and the rain and drives her to the Hospital. At that point the film goes blank (in her description) but she tells me later in the afternoon my Dad meets one of the neighbors in that town as he is going about his business and the neighbor tells him he has a new son, that would be me. That’s all my Mom told me she left out all the spaces or blanks. Was she implying how unconcerned he was he found out from a neighbor he has new son? Maybe so a bit maybe how alone she felt having me by herself (tears)……………just me and her bring born into a world of pain. A world without a lot of communication or understanding. How ‘important’ it must have been to her was just a detail for my Dad on his ‘business’ things in that town
Of course later he would ‘take me away’ from her in letting people know I was his ‘favorite’ the one he thought the cleverest and smartest and quickest of wit. I was not really but he wanted that.. Anyway the point of this story (is there a point?) is my Mom told me after that experience which she made clear in her own way was horrible she told my Dad she would ‘go on strike’ give up, leave, whatever unless he got himself a hay-shed. That day was so difficult for her she would not continue living there unless he put up a hay-shed. And he did I don’t know when but my impression was it was there for the next year’s hay
So ‘what’s the feeling as Jack would say’……………………I was born in chaos and stress, things were happening around me big forces I did not understand or know but they were there interfering with the intimacy and peace I would have needed with my Mom. She told me there was an atmosphere of ‘seacharan’ that’s a Gaelic word that has a huge connotation……………..of chaos especially of stress and confusion too……………my Mom was a ‘survivor’ too she took a lesson from it it would hot be allowed to ever happen again……………it was that bad for her. When she was telling me this I felt no ‘blame’ from her about my ‘role’ in all this……………she had ‘affection’ for me I suppose like you would for a young calf or lamb not so personal but you know she wanted me to ‘survive’ too just like herself. But she was ‘mad’ at my Dad for his impracticality and I suppose his selfishness maybe by causing me to be and then just dropping everything even to be point of being told by a neighbor that I was born. He ‘heard’ about it like maybe something he would hear in the ‘news’…………….not so important to him but to her she nearly died of pain and stress and confusion. Anyway she had me and I ‘survived’ too even if I carried and do still carry the ‘imprint’ everyday of my life.
“she had ‘affection’ for me I suppose like you would for a young calf or lamb not so personal but you know she wanted me to ‘survive’ too just like herself. But she was ‘mad’ at my Dad for his impracticality and I suppose his selfishness maybe by causing me to be and then just dropping everything even to be point of being told by a neighbor that I was born. He ‘heard’ about it like maybe something he would hear in the ‘news’…………….not so important to him but to her she nearly died of pain and stress and confusion. Anyway she had me and I ‘survived’ too even if I carried and do still carry the ‘imprint’ everyday of my life.”
So!!! next step … what is the feeling for YOU … in all this?
Ok called out sick to take care of old dog. He didn’t pee most of yesterday evening and so I was worried he was getting sick, but he finally peed this morn. Took him and the other 2 dogs for a walk in Beverly Hills adjacent last night. I had dropped off Z to go lead her panel at some homeless shelter. It was not a long walk, just up and down one block. L don’t particularly enjoy that area, off Pico and La Cienaga, still not sure why. Lot of young people or apartment people, really narrow streets, but there were old trees and such, so it was ok. Then we went to the streets by the old Institute. I used to take walks there, on Saturdays when I would come to use a room and listen to music, trying to get into feelings, or to buddy with Corvette, who eventually disappeared into Santa Monica, never to be heard of again. Anyways, took the 3 dogs for a walk over there, I love the beautiful neighborhood but of course I am so jealous of the people who can afford to live there. I have to carry the old dog. Anyway, so I am home today, always feel guilty about calling out sick. I have plenty of work to do both at home and on the job. Can’t really do anything at home most of the time because if the old dog is awake, he barks when left alone. So watching another episode of House with old dog and younger dog on my bed. A nice little scene of a dead mother comforting her sick daughter in her hospital bed. Poignant. The doctors finally found a cure for her, and she was looking at her dead mom (a hallucination) and asking her if she was now going to go away, and she nodded yes, and rubbed her hand and nodded. I would put that up on youtube if I could figure out how to clip it out, but I probably wont. It did not bring tears to my eyes; it just caught my eye, I guess the rubbing of the daughter’s hand by mom. I probably had 10 months of that kind of care, just after coming out of my mom’s belly, soothing babying care. Quite a biggie experience, those 10 months. I CANT THINK OF THE WORD (maybe IMPRESSION will have to do), having that good care when the brain and skin and organs and body are giantly bursting and shooting forth like a stalk of corn in the bright sun. I could have had a cruel mother for those 10 months (or no mother) for that very impressionable time, but I got lucky about that. And I think that living in that big house near Pasadena with my mom, grandmother, aunts, and great-grandma(for a while) was also good. A bunch of women, most or all of them were Cancers, nurturing. My grandma was a bit crazy from a whole shitload of painful life, but still…I think my great-grandma used to rub my forehead when I was fussy. Anyway, I finally got the old dog to go back to sleep, I rubbed his head for 10 minutes. And thus I found time to write this. I hope everyone enjoys their retreat. I am so jealous that I cant go, which is strange because until last year, I always thought the retreats were not for me. I think I made great strides last year, even though the bucket of pain only yielded a drop of relief. And then Z lost her job, so that was the end of PT at the PI for me. Which maybe has allowed me to finally deal with my old pain, this year, slowly, feeling a tiny bit at home, just the last few months actually. With music. I had stopped listening to music for soooo long, ok I think I have reversed that course. Ok it is becoming a million degrees here in the valley. Got to pay a bill. That is going to be really hard, since something is keeping me from doing it. Time is about up though. Goodbye.
This song I have always liked very much it’s called “World Without Tears”. Thinking of my Mom her’s was not a world without tears she was a ‘cryer’ actually and thought I did not like it so much as a child because it always announced suffering and problems ahead…………….even then I suppose I felt her reality, I liked that part if I can even separate it out I used to feel tears were associated with truth even my Dad though not a ‘cryer’ sometimes in very important moments did and that sealed it for me tears were the truth. So Janov was music to my ears.
If we lived in a world without tears
How would bruises find the face to lie upon?
How would scars find skin to etch themselves into?
How would broken find the bones?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would heartbeats know when to stop?
How would blood know which body to flow outside of?
How would bullets find the guns?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would misery know which back door to walk through?
How would trouble know which mind to live inside of?
How would sorrow find a home?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would bruises find the face to lie upon?
How would scars find skin to etch themselves into?
How would broken find the bones?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would bruises find the face to lie upon?
How would scars find skin to etch themselves into?
How would broken find the bones?
How would broken find the bones?
How would broken find the bones?
Read more: Lucinda Williams – World Without Tears Lyrics | MetroLyrics
oh yeah, finally got to see the younger kid’s baby last week. kid had told us we were dead to last year around Christmas time, and he hadn’t talked to us since, but a few weeks ago, he had a job near our house so he came over wanting to know all about the shit that we put him through when he was young. some of the shit was not our fault. anyway saw his baby finally walking now. Kid does not think the baby is talking, but we heard the baby say NO and some other common word. got to go dog is waking up
Scared and apprehensive about flying to LA tomorrow for the retreat. Not looking forward to having to stand up for myself and reach out and connect there. There is such a big empty nothing and so much fear inside of me. This afternoon needing and imagining getting caring and mothering at the retreat, I cried lots of hurt and loss, and the feeling of being cast aside by coldly indifferent life. We are social beings but I got none. Life is too much to deal with all alone. Seems like what I mostly know to my core is all alone. There is only me, scared and empty, to move and motivate me into my unknown future. The future could be good. It could be fun if I could make it happen. It won’t happen when fear and emptiness paralyses me.
Barry Berfield said there was only one thing that hurts more than not getting what we want, getting it. I started therapy in August 86, went home for xmas. I hugged my father as usual and he said in my ear with his deep bass but this time trembling voice, for the 1st and only time, ” I love you David.” I said I loved him as I had always done when I hugged him.
But I turned to ice and I felt the pain in the bottom of my gut, heavy, big, burning, cutting, tearing and I had to stuff it down there not able to get it out until my wife and children left the house the next morning. I wished he had never said it.
Gov Jerry Brown apparently has just signed the mandatory vaccination law in California. This to me is a very bad omen and a very bad thing in itself. Victim parents and children can look forward to a lifetime of brain illness and all the rest of it. Most of them will not have a clue what hit them or where it is coming from. I am not saying it is only vaccines but they are a big factor elephant in the room IMO. People will and are going to doctors standard and ‘alternative’ psychiatrists and psychologists standard and ‘alternative’ with really no relief to be found. No clue what him them…………….that is deeply unfair.
You can see also how the so called ‘outbreak of measles in Disneyland’ propaganda has served it’s purpose hell even nurses in the UK wanted to vaccinate Jo to ‘protect’ against that myth. If we are to get to Dr Kruse’s ‘prediction’ that the human race will dwindle to 150,000 total humans world wide this is a start I suppose. To really get to that number I think will have to involve nations slinging nuclear bombs at each other……………….which is not too hard to imagine either. Mad world.
Usually docile Jim Carey is out front calling it Fascism. Given the latest in the Journal of Neurology it is a bad move. Politics, scare, play to the lobbyists,
attract money, get reelected…
> wow, to my great surprise, I managed to get a 7 on my statistics exam, hard to believe, as they also substract points for possible gambling answers, and in 5 of the 40 questions I noticed those differences of mine and their software..
> so after all I must have had more right answers than I thought!!
> such a nice surprise, as I was actually prepared to only get a 5.5 or so, so hurray again, smiley!
>
> a welcome boost to keep up the courage to study all those brain parts and their respective (dis)functions..
> managing to deal with some practical problems for our mom at same time, together with brother, each doing our bit, so keeping a few balls up in the air for now with success.
> hot summer weather, which I like too, and soon kittens here, a few more days only..
> hope you keep writing in this way, Patrick, sounds like you are making good progress there.
> M
A bit more about vaccines…………..I just watched this by turns gripping, frightening, appalling, fascinating, informative lecture about them. Very ironic given what has just happened in California………….it seems the human race is bent on collective suicide it is fascinating in a horrific way to even think how far things can go wrong. I like this guy also because he can duke it out with so called ‘scientists’ he is a good one himself. Phil this might be interesting for you though if you take it seriously you might have to quit your job I know that can be a major problem. Margaret you might find interesting also the use of statistics a lot of the time I still say my one off ‘experiment’ with my brother’s sheep means MORE than reams of so called ‘epidemiological’ studies. That’s not arrogance it’s just stating a fact or a fact as I see it. Also Margaret I am sorry about my communication ‘style’ or maybe non communication but if you can get yourself to watch/listen to this all the way through you may see my ‘concern’ for you cats goes a little bit beyond seeing things in ‘black and white’. If you want to see things in color watch or just listen to this. A true mind blower to me anyway and I thought I knew the worst…………………it is so bad that it is hard to get or go there to how bad it is I mean. Gotta go off for the day now…………..
Patrick,It seems to me that the whole vaccine controversy probably has more to do with feelingscaused by big government, big pharma, …….big whatever, (big Mommy and Daddy?) and not anything actual. The new law signed by Jerry Brown is no doubt stirring up more feelings.Phil Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 18:54:41 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Except Dr. Russell Blaylock is a highly respected board certified Neurosurgeon. And he is but one of hundred’s of MD’s ringing alarm bells. Putting their careers even medical licenses on the line to stand up for what they believe to be the caveats. Former WHO, and CDC scientists, Big Pharma Scientists who have left cozy tenured salaried positions to speak out.
Hardly reasonable that all of them are informed from being frightened, uninformed, impressionable, neurotics, while the vaxxxers are unquestionably the good guys.
Recalcitrance against thinking outside the Top Down dictated box is not Jim dandy healthy either.That’s very much a mommy daddy unresolved issue.
So is joining in to piss on one identified target. That’s bully behavior. A need for the pack because of a lack of individual felt security.
What kind of people would Dr. Janov, Barry and Gretchen be, if they met every applicant, pissed on them, out intellectualized them, out rationalized them, called them losers, for being fucked up and told them to go away ?
This sucks and I’m pissed !! That’s a feeling, too.
David, You and Patrick are beating a dead horse over and over. It’s dead, why can’t you let it go. Is it so currently relevant to your own healthor Patrick’s ? I just don’t get it. Phil Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:45:17 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – It may be ‘over’ as you put it ……………………..for California’s and much of the world’s children……………….and primal therapy will be powerless to help, way too much damage done……………..
Vaccination probably could have some beneficial effects but not as toted and not as delivered. The benefits are way overstated and the dangers and damage hidden; until now when medical doctors are beginning to blow it out of the water. I know very little but nearly 40 years of trying to learn from unbiased science has been somewhat fruitful. The community of medical doctors and other health care medical practitioners with whom I communicate around the world can’t all be plain stupid. I’m sure Jerry Brown’s former lobbyist activities on behalf of a pharmaceutical company has not influenced his actions. But it does show how he thinks, conventionally and minimalistically.
Patrick and David,There is a vaccine for shingles and recommended yearly vaccines for the flufor older people. In view of our discussion here I recommend not getting those vaccines.Don’t get any boosters either.Now we should be allset.
The subject is that in this case Patrick presented compelling new evidence that vaccines cause damage to the brains of developing fetuses. We came to Primal to try to remedy our brain damage, the damage of every cell in our bodies which we believe are caused by assaults on our developing emotional self. The perception I glean is that he is poopooed and abused just some silly misguided misanthrophic boy and the salient information is pissed on. Grow up, engage respectfully and, “you’ll,” be good.
The subject is that in this case Patrick presented compelling new evidence that vaccines cause damage to the brains of developing fetuses. We came to Primal to try to remedy our brain damage, the damage of every cell in our bodies which we believe are caused by assaults on our developing emotional self. The perception I glean is that he is poopooed and abused just some silly misguided misanthrophic boy and the salient information is pissed on. Grow up, engage intelligently and respectfully in the presence of dissenting information and, “you’ll,” be good.
David: There are a couple of things in this last comment of yours that I would like to take exception to. The first is to designate Dr. Blaycock a highly respected board certified Neurosurgeon. On that count I feel stongly that all the neuro therorist in the medical world misses out on Janov’s discovery, and I personally would NOT, for all their titles, give them much credit. But then that’s just ME.
Primal Theory for me, put all those guys in the medical closet and closed the door. I do however see that vacinations were an attempt to take the diseases of neurotic humans and attempt to create a remedy. Where I feel the discovery of Primal Pain left most of that in the dust, was that:- where we not made neurotic in the first place, primarily by mommy and daddy; then perpetuated by the neuroic civilization from there-on-in … our natural imune suystems would have protected us from needing vaccines … BUT and here is the big “but” … since mommy and daddy DID ‘fuck’ our natural imune systems up; maybe vacinations for most, left with their neurosis, is one meager step to somewhat of a prevention. I personally am on the route to getting back (via Feeling and their respective full expressions) to my natural imune system. That for me, is via Primal Therapy. The rest missed the genius of “The Discovery of Primal Pain”
With all due respect Jack to you and my total respect for the theory and clinical expertise of Dr. Janov, if I am in an accident and suffer brain injury or have an aneurysm I want that neuro surgeon. If I suffer extensive bone breakage I want that orthopedic surgeon , not exclusively herbal tea. I am not so arrogant as to think other disciplines have no place Dr. Blacklock is a specialist in his field. He has researched the effects of vaccines on infant brain development. Recent science discovered that the brain has a lymphatic system and that injectables cross the blood brain barrier and cause impairment to the developing brain. Dr. Janov sings the praises of the Science of Epigenetics, and employs neurologists and other medical specialists to interpret observed changes in
patients. So apparently he does not view them with hostility, nor dismiss them as know nothings.
In the area of disease I believe Allopathic medicine has shown itself to be an abject failure. And there are hosts of us,including medical doctors who believe the same.. In those conditions I want a Naturopath and a skilled Homeopath. The science showing the failure, baloney, and damage caused by vaccine and vaccine delivery systems is meticulously documented. Those who support it and those who sell it do not discourage business.
My deceased daughter’s heart according to her Cardiologist was damaged in utero when our caring and best intentioned GP injected my wife with an anti Ruebella vaccine early in her 2nd trimester of pregnancy, because a child suspected to be with measles had visited the clinic that day. That child he said had been previously immunized but he wanted to be safe.
If I have a financial windfall, I’ll be back in LA, after assessing whether I return to the Primal Institute where I know I’m welcome or to try to beg my way into Dr. Janov’s clinic based on his published continued research, including new ways all of the time to better serve patients. There are NO Failed Primal patients only failed therapy, due to not knowing at that point in time what to do to help that patient.. May I never be compelled to utter such needless hurtful diatribe to anyone. If I dislike someone’s behaviour I stay away, do them no harm, wish them no harm.
.The therapists do their best as practitioners based on what tools they have accumulated at any point in time. Being smart is but one cog on the wheel.
Phil – to me that is the kind of narrow ‘reductionist’ attitude that has led to the death of primal therapy. Something that has no room and destroys more than it encourages. It has died in case you haven’t noticed ongoing retreats not-withstanding
To be clear I don’t believe it HAS to die or SHOULD die or even that it cannot rise again in a better form but from all I see it will have to be well outside ‘institutional’ primal as we now have it.
Talking of reduction(isms), I would have thought that just 30 people on a cruise with Kruse never really took off excpt with those 30 odd folks. I know for you, Primal has been dead for sometime, BUT that’s just you. I doubt that PG could contribute to a revival of PT (therapy or theory) .. in any other form.
Either Primal Theory is totally redundant and SO, you’ve been pursuing a redundancy, such then there will be no revival OR, it is very much alive and will be revived intact. If not then as you state it’s ALL dead … you and me included. Since as Kruse predicts there will only be 150,000 left and I doubt anyone one of them are likely to have heard of Jack Kruse or Arthur Janov. They no doubt will die off, and then all we will be left with is the earth twirling around our solar sun until the very end of time. Without any pussy cats or your brother’s sheep even.
Patrick , ya silly boy; now be a nice lad and run along now. Don’t ya know you’re playin’ over your head here. Go ’round to the other side of the school where ya can hold yer own with yer age mates. Scoot now before we have ta reprimand ya. Fuck, I don’t know why you even try, Patrick. You’re Primal to the bone; and you have a thinking brain. I think I’ve come to understand that when you start explaining something you are taking, or overcome with, a multi facted input and you assemble as you talk. Evening questioning the information as you do so. I’m told geniuses do that. It takes a little more effort than, “Dick and Jane,” dialogue to follow; ” Run Tom, run. See Flip run……”
Why don’t you start your own Primal blog.
My respects to you sir.
David, It could be that Patrick just wants to “poke” us with this vaccine thing. Margaret for some reason. And I don’t agree on his views, in my case, and Jack for other reasons. But I don’t have to agree, do I? Maybe when it strikes me I’ll look into the issue yet again. But I will investigate it myself. It’s just this kind of fixation or obsession on this issue (vaccines) We are maybe 7 active bloggers here. What is the importance of convincing us. That’s what makes me wonder what drives it. If it is so important, contact elected officials or join a demonstration. But why harangue us with it here. I’m just not receptive towards things presented in this way. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Intellectualize all you want. Act precious. Be paranoid, recalcitrant. I have no vested interest in your life. The more I hear you the more you sound like a robotic game player. I am accustomed to well ,” educated,” well socialized friends sharing info often. I don’t question their reasons. That’s how we keep up to date. I know how to do due diligence. Six more Black congregation churches were burned in South Carolina this week. And ,” we’re,” closeted to our little elitist me, me, me ?? There’s a whole world out there and maybe it’s my wrong upbringing but I big boy care and I was taught to do something about what you can effect.
Phil – you very much mis-understand what I am doing here. It has nothing to do with ‘poking’ really it’s as simple as what I am interested in and thinking about at this point in time. All of this vaccine business happened by accident I heard a Gary Null interview with Janine Roberts in the middle of the night when I had trouble sleeping.
I thought and read more……………..and then it occurred to me about Margaret and how her cat was it seems always sick. Purely from curiosity I started to ask her about her ‘shots’ etc. At the same time I started talking to my brother in Ireland. All of this just happened but you know I am ‘excited’ about finding out stuff I talk about it here.
“Here” to is WHATEVER we are interested in, whatever is going on with us, if I am ‘up the pole’ hopefully I will find out in my own way and in my own time.To me there should be no ‘should’ if that is not too absurd, no ‘approved’ topics no praise for ‘feeling’ and sarcasm and disdain about ‘thinking’ As humans we have all of these aspects and many more I really don’t like the kind of ‘praising’ some topics and disdain for others.
This is probably enough for now on this topic (vaccines) and I will try I promise to keep a light touch about it for now but it is important to me that you understand what drives me and motivates me. Are there sub-conscious other things that drive me…………..of course there are am I still acting out being ‘top of the class’ I am sure I have not left that totally behind but this to use a cliche is a journey not a destination. I think the only real ‘destination’ of life is when we die so please let me wander on my journey. I think we would both be the better for it
Hadn’t you already gone “OFF” a bit before you even started ?????
Patrick!!! it seems to me you do not understand what you are doing. You are on a Primal Institute blog … flogging you little theories to do all in you power to show that you are the only bright one around.
Go back to Kunstler .he’s more in your line of head stuff.
From knowing you all these years you always pick the wrong modus, wrong girl friend wrong arguments from the wrong end of the stick. You’re tiresome..
I think the sharing of pertinent information related to health is relevant regardless of the focal intent of the blog. People concerned for people, friends, associates seems progressive.
David; the relevant word in your comment was “pertinent”
Wouldn’t it be equally pertinent to show the ill health effects of ingesting arsenic, in that case?
It’s not what Patrick is attempting to show, but the manner in which he delivers it. Which is why I stated that IMO he little knows what he’s doing. Coined by Janov on several occasions as being on “Automatic Pilot”.
Jack either I am a poor communicator and am unable to use the inane comparison as a tool or you need to read more carefully. Ingesting arsenic effects, really, Jack. It’ll fuckin kill ya…
cheers
David – I am moved by some of the things you say and I don’t think it is just ‘support’ not there is anything wrong with support………….but what I feel is ‘understanding’ I have felt (here) misunderstood for a very long time now. Part of it for sure is my fault I get involved in fights and am easily provoked and I have a lot of anger/disappointment about the way primal actually worked out or rather did not for me.I could have been more honest about all that but I think it’s the fear of failure or the fear of being called a failure is so huge for me. I mentioned before I was always ‘top of the class’ so some of these things are very convoluted and hard for me to un-entangle
Gretchen who IS a smart cookie at one of the retreats I was at about 2 years ago gave me the WORD ‘mis-understood’ and I have to say it rings a loud bell now. To come at something with such force and intensity and to be pooh poohed so much well it hurts or maybe better to say it has hurt. Today not so much I am feeling my way out of this. You say I am ‘primal to the bone’ I’d say that is accurate even on the Cruise I was in one way or another trying to get it in in many different contexts and situation. I gave “The Feeling Child” to my bunk-mate a lovely Canadian woman as it turns out but she showed no interest.
I cried quite intensely 4 different times on the Cruise and in front of people too………………and I suppose what made it ‘real’ is it is not ‘expected’ of me I feel even it is not appreciated but somehow that makes it more real. At the retreats that kind of thing is ‘approved’ so to me well it does not feel ‘real’ so much.Like I am just being a good boy and doing what is expected of him……………….again my problem (By crying where it is not appreciated could be called ‘acting out’ my situation with my family but that’s the way my cookie crumbles)
I am aware even this is quite personal to me and in that sense strictly my problem………….but I think it shows how subtle and delicate the process of feeling is. We are doing brain surgery without scalpels I think it is good to be humble and realize the tricky nature of what we are engaged in. Art Janov said it was all so simple………………and at bottom it is but ‘getting there’ is the tricky part
I am rambling around here but I want to tell you again I appreciate your presence here so much David – combined with some of the people I met with on the Cruise and other things happening I feel a new day dawning. Thank you again.
Patrick, you’re a good boy, pat, pat, as in ,”pat,” not Pat, short for Patrick, performed by the rules of acceptable conduct, and have been given a conditional hall pass… Noe sin no more…
Reminds me my 3 week therapist L. (yes I still remember those days) told me to be careful if my answers became too ‘pat’. And he joked about that like pat was being too ‘pat’ I did take his point which was I intellectualize to the point where everything is explained so nothing left to feel………….are you being ironic here something I am not quite sure you are saying………….
> David,
> your reply to phil feels so ful of disdain, so rude and arrogant, and disrespectful.
> you so often claim to be nice and polite and well-educated but too often I see you go off trying to tackle someone in a very hurtful personal way, without any real basis to do so, and without knowing them at all.
> not nice to watch, and it to me is a big warning sign to stay clear of you as much as possible.
>
> in this case Patricks reply to Phil was much more sensible and polite, good on you Patrick.
> M
I never claim to be well educated, that would be pompous. I do a lot of research and am privileged to be included in discussions with well educated, well socialized, people, most of them women who I find more emotionally intact.
My neurotic head has composed a lot of dialogue/soliloquy with/to you, that would waste space here detailing. Attacking you, explaining me to you, all of the facts that would convince you I am a good boy, I don’t care, all of those rounds.
Wow, Margaret, that cut deep; the word hurt is a catch all; it brought up that old darkest fear of my existence being threatened in me. So my break time is over, feeling time is here. I recognize when I really have nothing but bland head talk to say so I’ll stop. Man I want to be hurtful right back.
We both seem to be rescuers.
David – I feel like saying to you ‘there is no need to be discouraged’ I am pretty sure anything ‘bad’ or whatever said about you has been said about me in ‘spades’. And I ‘survived’ it of course we are all different but I feel like saying ‘don’t leave’ or don’t give up or whatever (for my own reasons too of course)
Maybe you were a bit ‘rude’ to Phil but really so what……………….IMO he kind of ‘deserves’ it too he sort of poses as someone who knows something about say vaccines etc………..to me he does not know so much maybe he ‘works’ in the field which is FAR from knowing much. Unfortunately nowadays it usually translates to being a functionary of a very poor system……………not the same as ‘knowing’ anything
The kind of stuff Margaret said to you she has said to me MANY times and I have lived to tell the tale. My take is she does not need to jump in to ‘defend’ Phil he can do that for himself if he wants to. Of course here I am jumping in to ‘defend’ you things can be absurd like that…………..
Quite by accident I read in a local paper there was an anti-vaccine demonstration in Santa Monica this afternoon so I went. About 1,000 people there I estimate maybe a bit less, Channel 7 and Channel 4 were there surprisingly to me.
I found the whole thing moving and quite sad……………..many mothers there reaping the sad harvest of this totally bogus ‘science’ It starts to feel like 1984 the book only worse. Apparently they have about another 135 vaccines ‘on deck’ waiting for their chance to deploy them. They will also since the basically have the kids already push for more and more adult vaccines. In employment starting now with day care workers teachers also I think, The thin end of the wedge you can imagine fast food workers might be next or just about anybody in any dealings with the public. One can only hope they will reach too far but I sense the opposition is weak. This whole thing is so absurd it would be laughable if the consequences were not so serious.They are also starting to tie it in with travel…………….I can imagine a day when you cannot travel to other countries with proof of vaccination. The whole thing as bad as it is now they have more and bigger plans to ramp it up. Quite scary stuff.
Louis Farrakhan’s people (Nation of Islam)were there not himself but a real look alike. The leader Tony Muhammed spoke a fine speech but again I wonder really what they can do. (Farrakhan of course as far as the media are concerned might as well not exist since he has been tarred as an ‘anti-semite’ the death knell for anyone’s career. I think he was just not on board with what Israel is doing hence the bogus charge. Lucky my career days are over so i can speak a little bit about that) The quite well known British doctor Andrew Wakefield was there and I spoke to him. He said his wife was Irish and he still had problems figuring out what she was saying. He also gave a fine speech.
They are looking for signature gatherers for a ballot initiative they need 400,000 signatures I think I will volunteer to do that as they are looking for volunteers. I was glad I went it was quite moving even if in a sad and kind of desperate way.
Dr Wakefield mentioned the huge power of the drug companies and the ‘parasites and carper-baggers who trail in their wake. I have to admit I thought of Phil when he said that
Be fair now Jack, it impacts humans, in particular fetal brains, of whom we are so rightfully fond. I know how you feel. If I’m a bit agitated I some times feel the same way about simple social chit chat here. Then I think, that it reflects us as whole people, ingrown toe nails, loves, losses. I was able to write about the death of my 4 year old daughter with nary a criticism for being irrelevant. Actually nary any kind of comment. It was my experience but also feeling charged. So lots of off label stuff passes as being unremarkable.
I’m prejudiced because I’m for social responsibility. That’s what the thousands of medical doctors opposed to vaccines have been saying, they can ring the alarm bells but citizens have to put boots on the streets and pressure on the politicians. One thing they know for sure is they want to keep their cushy jobs. Good to see your out there, Patrick. The last campaign I involved myself in here was a cut to in home services for the elderly. Amazing when reporters start covering discontent. Mr. Schwarzenegger says Jerry Brown is playing politics, diverting attention, making it appear that he’s doing something. In this case waging a war against a non existent enemy.
Wildlife specialists report increased disease across the populations.
The character, reputation, and career assassination of Dr. Wakefield by a lying, disgraced, pharmaceutical industry hired gun reporter, shines the power of a mammoth industry. It was a months work of tedious effort to ferret out the truths there. It began falling apart after the London Times said that guy was lying when he claimed to work for them. By that time the damage had been done to Wakefield, but the medical community momentum dedicated to furthering the known facts gathered steam as they recognized the ruthlessness of the industries feeling threatened.
Weird, that 150,000 population number is exactly the number quoted in a paper co created by WHO and the CDC for the 1993 World Banking Association
Annual Meeting. Only it suggested that that is all of the humans needed with modern systems in place and that we mere dispensable peons were using up the air and currency of the entitled worthy. It was passed out at a Health Care meeting I was attending. And I thought, ” How paranoid is that ?” hmmmm…
It also named the board members for all of the major organizations and most were exactly the same names. Just dedicated folks I guess.
“waging a war against a non existent enemy”,,,,,,,,,,,,,,kind of sums up so much of what the US does in the world war on drugs, war on cancer, war on terror all lost before they start because it is not an honest agenda
Another thing that came up at the demo was medical marijuana for children. You know this whole movements about getting hold of a special marijuana oil to stop seizures etc. The speaker used the phrase ‘micro-glial activation’ which is a word for brain inflammation leading to seizures and things like that. Well it seems some of the drug companies are against the marijuana and trying to stop it but ARE working on a synthetic pill for the same condition. And they talked about the horror of these companies first off CAUSING the problem and now presenting themselves as the CURE and of course making money off both ends. And I think that is the way it is going. They also as I suspected very much tied in SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome to vaccines
Reminds me again of Margaret and her cat she is dealing with ‘vets’ who are constantly giving the cat it’s ‘shots’ and and also there mopping up with all their drugs, creams, suits etc.Please Margaret try not to take this personally you are no different than these innocent mothers dealing with life long problems in their children. I understand it goes against nature and common sense not to trust or listen to your vet and yet that seems to be the best course of action
135 new vaccines in preparation……………….I didn’t know there were that many ‘diseases’ well there will be more than that if they manage to deploy them…………….
Quote:- “Reminds me again of Margaret and her cat she is dealing with ‘vets’ who are constantly giving the cat it’s ‘shots’ and and also there mopping up with all their drugs, creams, suits etc.Please Margaret try not to take this personally ……..”
You are an idiot, ass-hole, a very disturbed person and a twisted brain …. but PLEASE do not take it personally. Do you even know what you are saying, thinking????????
I’m not sure if you have a serious COMPULSION with cats, vets or, Margaret … but you seem unable to refrain from adding them to your comments. What is the matter with you??? Seriously!!!
I adopted once from a shelter. I spent several weeks visiting with this brilliant lab shepherd cross. One condition for adoption was neutering. I support that.
When I picked up my neutered dog I now had an absolute idiot, not the brilliant, well socialized guy I had interacted with and brought home for several weekends. He had to be re house trained, and that really, entailed training me, because he was dually incontinent, and chewed wooden furniture. The poor guy would suddenly start crying, beat his head on the floor, the wall. And claw at it until he drew blood. I called the shelter and they suggested euthanizing him. Acupuncture and Homeopathy gave him relief, but he was never again normal, could not handle changes, like me bringing my bike in the hallway when it rained. Before the surgery I would take him on an old logging trail and he would run along side my bike. After the surgery he would attack my bike and I had to short leash him on walks on bike pedestrian bike paths. That may have explained my personality altered neutered cats. I blamed myself for causing them separation anxiety from the 3 day hospital experience. My beautiful Mitsu had an at home vet neutering and seemed not impacted.
I contacted another vet, a PHd, and former Pharmacist, who asked me if the dog had been given any shots close to the time of the surgery. My bill showed he had been given a full suite. He said that was the reason, that the vaccines had crossed the blood brain barrier via the appropriate carrier in the anesthetic, and had caused permanent brain damage. I shared this with the older vet at the shelter. He was aware of the science but chose to not believe it.
Most recently it has been scientifically established that the brain has its own lymphatic system and that injectbles do cross the blood brain barrier causing brain injury. Like the tobacco industry there is now a deny, deny, deny, damage control, and intellectual rebuffs to existing documentation.
I realize it is likely totally gratuitous to mention that the illegalization of cannabis was political, suppressing competition with synthetic textiles and synthetic drugs. The first step was to include it in the medically prescribed category and tax it, then illegalization. It’s value as tax revenue will lead to legalization again. I suspect inhaling smoke room any source is unhealthy. UCLA Med School, Sou Cal, in the early 70’s quoted research claiming that the kindling temperature of cannibis was higher than tobacco, increasing in its various refined products, so that the oils seared delicate respiratory and lung tissue. I was dong some street social work and used med info and not boogie man tactics to educate youth. Never occurred to me in my naivete of my younger years that that med info was simply invented, like optimum blood pressure, body temp , etc. Lots of stuff for likely non malicious reasons.
My oncologist friend says the campaign against smoking tobacco was mainly fueled by the fact that tobacco tar was needed by industry to replace coal tar, and petroleum in the manufacture of artificial colorings and flavorings and pharmaceuticals. No dispute that it was not a health promoting habit, but like JACK says money and capitalism are prominent culprits.
I went to the beach yesterday I suppose in attempt to ‘prove’ to myself that the ocean is dying………….I know little about it but the most obvious thing I look for is the pelicans. Those great swooping birds like airplanes but with better control. They use to swoop all around me and just hang in the air and then let gravity do it’s thing drop with great force and plunge head first into the ocean. At first I thought they were playing but it seems it was all about the food….the fish.
Anyway go there……………….not one not even one to be seen. I ask the lifeguard is it a seasonal thing? He doesn’t know, I ask what does he think is happening. He says it might be different currents, El Nino whatever they follow where the food is coming from or going to.He doesn’t know I leave it at that. I suspect the worst but what’s the point of ‘proving’ it. Though I have a drive to do that too it would somehow confirm my world view My ‘world view’ that nature is dying and it’s really just a matter of time. We are not ‘special’ we are part of nature and our time is coming. And really it’s only just……………we have done and caused all this mayhem, why should we be spared if the innocent penguin isn’t. We shouldn’t and we won’t.
It’s a big thing for me………………..I kind of moved my focus from the ‘inside’ and thought I found something in the ‘outside’ nature in all it’s glory and variety. Something that was ‘real’ in the immediate sense and something to read about and wonder at too……………….but it seems to be another false hope or doomed promise whatever words you want to use. NIck Barton (a primal therapist for those not in the know) one time wrote that the big irony of ‘doom and gloom’ people especially about predicting that (future tense) is that it has/had already happened. Well yes…………………and no too. The cruelty humans have visited on their children has consequences and they are now playing out in the destruction of nature and maybe all life except bacteria probably. The pain of infancy and childhood was like a preview for the horror show to come………….
Asteroid at my back
Past,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Asteroid coming towards me
Future……………….
Does’t leave much
Here in the middle ground
begging for time
begging for attention
begging for love
soon……………..
begging for food
begging for mercy
begging for time
still…………….
David: The significance of Patrick’s quote of Nick Barton was that the greatest of our sadness’s lies in the past. Whilst there is lots of sadness in the present, for the most part most of it is triggered by our past sadness’s. I see nothing enlightening in YOUR comment:- “No wonder sadness is so ubiquitous.” The sadness is not in looking into the future, since “the future” is the absolute UNKNOWN. Seeing our “gloom and doom” and being sad about it was:- as I feel Nick Barton was attempting to portray, is in the past … that for the most part is laying dormant in the subconscious.
oh, I neglected to insert a comma after wonder; I must have been in a coma.. coma…. comma ?? I have known relatively few people, no patients, who experienced an enriching early life.
The past informs the lens to the future though Jack, whether clear or distorted by old pain.
There could be a break through there, postulating that early life sadness effects us later on… sorry, couldn’t help myself….
David: the insertion of that comma would have made a huge difference; in that I would have known that you were saying … in essence:- “that sadness is sad”. Sort of obvious, yeah!!!!
No, Jack, that sadness is so prevalent that the collective response to the future is interpreted though that lens, the past, repressed feelings; sadness, fear, panic, hate, aggression, blind spots, displacement, sublimation.
A patient of mine, a Baptist cleric, spontaneously dropped all of those religious trappings, when he felt being unloved , helpless, and hopeless. That affected lens became inane for him. No one suggested that to him. And had it been suggested before he felt those things, a huge academic argument would have ensued in defense of godianity.
David: I agree that it MAY be being interpreted through that lens, but that is not how I charactgerized it. I was not concerned at the point of your comment (first and/or second) how it was it being interpreted, but rather suggesting that you were stating the obvious with little ‘purpose’ to your original feeling about Patrick’s comment.
‘
I accept being corrected by my use of “purvey” and agree it would have been simpler to say “convey”. I also liked the story about the Baptist cleric. That to me is Primal Therapy at it’s best. Much of what we feel and think pre-therapy is often turned on it’s head, when we start to get into feelings and expressing them. In my own case; I was in my adult life, quite unaware of how as a child I was terrifyingly shy. A sort of expectation the guillotine would chop off my head at any given moment … unless ……….!!!!
That all that had been repressed in my adult mind is to me, ‘the very nature (essence) of neurosis’. Now me; stating the obvious.
Quote:- “NIck Barton (a primal therapist for those not in the know) one time wrote that the big irony of ‘doom and gloom’ people especially about predicting that (future tense) is that it has/had already happened.”
If I remember rightly, Nick Barton said at a retreat group:- “The worst has already happened” I would add to that:- ‘Other than our own actual death … the worst HAS already happened’.
The significance of what I feel he was trying to purvey was that ‘the gloom and doom’ we personally feel is in the past … should we be able to go back and re-live it, is the only way to resolve it. For the future all we can do is feel and express the present. All the REAL guru’s have been trying to teach us for centuries.
Meantime I agree that we humans are not on any great path; collectively, towards a great future of the generations to come. I contend the problem is “NEUROSIS”. Yep, just one little word … with huge implications.
Hi Jack. I agree that doomsday has already happened. I use to think that something bad was going to happen, but I think my body was trying to tell me that it already had. As I began to re-experience those terrifying past feelings (of my tiny self) my thoughts of bad things to come has dissipated. And I think I am less drawn to and entangled in the real environmental threats around us. I still care, but don’t feel the hopelessness that somehow was attached to it before.
Also I wanted to ask Margaret: have you heard of “Be My Eyes”. I don’t know if you had mentioned it here or not. It is an app that you can get on your I-phone or I-pad. It connects sighted volunteers with blind persons who need visual assistance. You point your phone at a product (can of soup, piece of mail etc.) and the volunteer will view and tell you what they see. It is free and comes in 35 languages.
Sylvia: It goes without saying that feeling the unutterable devastation of the past makes the present way less daunting. Yes: if we wish to dwell on the future things look pretty grim … but to be for ever consumed by an unknown, assumed doomsday, is likely to make living in the ‘now’, a real burden as you stated.
I feel strongly that if we could put it all in the right perspective (whatever is assumed to be the ‘right perspective’), we just might be able to prevent a great deal of what is a potential future. It is my feeling that the future generations are NOT going to look back on us with any great reverence … in–spite of all the science and technology that abounds. Just as our generation is not all that enamored of past generations either. It’s the aspect upon which we view it all, that matters.
For my part, I am greatly thrilled with my therapy … not that it is all ‘hunky dorey’ for the most part. But hay hoo; life’s short, and I feel we don’t get a second shot.
Take care Sylvia. Maybe we can read more of your insights, and revelations in your therapy. That, I feel, would be very therapeutic for many of us.
Hi Jack. Thank you for your receptive words. Speaking of past generations, I lament that new moms can no longer stay home with their babies like was customary in past generations. Now a few weeks home and off back to work. Finances have become more important for survival supposedly than what is natural. Future generations of patients, I guess.
Sylvia: Yep!!! what we deem as “fiances” has taken over our lives … when, by my reckoning, none of was ever necessary in the first place.
We’ve created a society (civilization system) by “piece meal” In other words, we invented money to control the other guy, then we needed a policing system to make sure every one paid, and then we created prisons for that that refused to pay, then we created a military just in case another society didn’t do it our way, and on and on and on. We are for ever patching up the system … of quilts, until everything is now a fucking mess, which we all know … but feel we can nothing about it … so we vote for whomever makes the best promise, only to discover that once they have the power, they will do it their way and if we protest then we bring in those of us peons, that became policemen to make sure it’s done their way. and now moms are totally unable to look after their off-springs, and the off-springs grow up to become so called terrorist, and so we now have to invent another whole mode of warfare to conquer them, because no-one want to join the military and get killed; and somehow, through what is deemed technology we will create robots to do it all for us and guess what? … the robots will take over our lives and it will become unlivable for all of us.
If we were to go back to square one (money) and abolish it … all else would fall into place … since that was how it was in the very first place before we came out of the trees in the topics. BUT, oh no say the Walton’s…. not because they are happy, but because they want to remain the privileged ones. What a farce … and unwittingly we all support it … then we become diseased with incurable diseases, and die a miserable death.
That’s okay Jack. I may have to dig out a Disney video to cheer me up or a puppy video online. But the way my computer is acting I might have to turn around and play with my real dog. Have to remember how to act human sometimes.
Disney never did cheer me up … I had to rely on snaps and snails and puppy dogs tails, since I was always told (by my sister in particulare) that, that was what boys were made of. 🙂 .
I did tell you, and you should now feel warned that robots were going to take over. Well, as I said they have a mind of their own and fuck knows who their mommy and daddy was!! It is my feeling Sylvia that you don’t have to remember how to act human … me thinks; it comes naturally to you 😛 .
JackDisney never did cheer me up … I had to rely on snaps and snails and puppy dogs tails, since I was always told (by my sister in particulare) that, that was what boys were made of. 🙂 .
I did tell you, and you should now feel warned that robots were going to take over. Well, as I said they have a mind of their own and fuck knows who their mommy and daddy was!! It is my feeling Sylvia that you don’t have to remember how to act human … me thinks; it comes naturally to you 😛 .
I think the correct word is ” convey,” not “purvey,” Jack. And the interpretation is rather gratuitous. I think a bit of neucrosis creeps in, too.
Barry once said, half the people coming to therapy think the cause of their problems is in the past. They’re wrong. The other 1/2 think the cause of their problems is in the present, And, they’re wrong.
The courage to change after all of that old shit is felt can for some be a now issue.
Vaccines are irrelevant really in the big picture and the long run……………it’s just I believe they are hastening the destruction of the human race and animals too……………..maybe a collective death wish that is just playing out.
I just spoke to my brother he has 93 yews and this year (no vaccines) had no miscarriages. He said the ‘expected’ rate (that would be ‘standard’ vaccinated sheep) is about 10%. I asked him how many mis-carriages did he have last year out the 93. 9 or 10 he said and that was typical of former years. Another tiny bit of ‘data’ I don’t need to say if a mother mis-carries it is nature’s way of saying ‘no bueno’……………..this will probably not work out too well.
And I believe for that and other reasons things are not working out too well and ‘it will get worse before it get’s better’ it it ever does. A vain hope it seems to me.
Jack said “A sort of expectation the guillotine would chop off my head at any given moment … unless ……….!!!!” so now it seems instead of being ‘afraid’ he chops off other’s heads certainly mine any chance he gets. Above is a typical and all too common example. Any ‘gap’ or ‘opening’ as he sees it and he is through it like a mad sheep following some ‘primal’ concept in his own head
So I wonder is that ‘progress’ in any sense? Probably about as good as it will get in the “degenerate” form of ‘primal’ he practices and believes in. Go from acting it in to acting it out or whatever. Go from being afraid to intimidating other people – a pretty straight forward case of ‘acting it out’ to use the jargon. Jargon I don’t care for actually. It’s very disappointing for me and makes me wonder……………..if the original ‘real’ primal therapy was no great shakes, the practice amateurish for the most part and the results poor and the ‘institution’ of primal dying by any measures in the ‘real’ world and now we have here a worse ‘version’ of it a more narrow and ‘fundamentalist’ and hateful form of it as least as exemplified by Jack and he sort of ‘runs’ the place now that even Margaret has gone AWOL (a kind of ISIS of primal lol)……………………….so David I am game for starting another blog. I know 2 people already who have been to the PI (unhappy with the place and the ‘results’ as most are deep down or even not so deep down right on the surface more often) and expressed quite a bit of interest.
I must admit I do miss a place where I can kind of plop down every morning and say what is on my mind. I do it a bit with email etc I have even thought of starting a ‘family blog’ I mean for me and my siblings but that is not really what I am looking for. “Here” is no longer worth it to me……………just about anything I write I expect and often it is ‘thrown back in my face’ by Jack. I do not need that, he does it with no good purpose in mind he does not mean me well he just provokes or attempts to in his hateful head tripping kind of way. He is a pest to me and the last thing I should be doing is jousting with him. It drags me to the same level a level of crazy mean one upmanship.
Now I wait for more crap because of this……………but I am not interested in that I am interested in your thoughts David and see if there is anything I can DO about this. This nonsense has gone on way too long for me and really it is because I don’t create a better alternative for myself. The main thing I took away from the Cruise is as you put it ‘primal to the bone’ I am so it is totally unproductive for me to be ‘arguing’ with it or with some of its degenerate adherents. I want to be ‘doing’ primal and in a way that is more ‘true’ to the original vision and we all had a ‘vision’ there not just Janov himself. Certainly the kind of slavish ‘following’ of him to me makes no sense. To continue the sheep image racing through a gap behind him and he is a pretty imperfect leader in this ‘sheep’s opinion lol…………
PS David I understand you have not been here so long and you may well feel you want to stay here or you have more to ‘get’ here or whatever. I have been here a long time 3.5 years which is about 3 years too long. Anyway all of the above are really just my thoughts this morning what I feel about the place but I do feel/think it is a good idea for me to get away. But I want to get away to somewhere better.
Quote:- “He is a pest to me and the last thing I should be doing is jousting with him. It drags me to the same level ”
If it really does hurt you that much, and you then need to write an epistle for some kind of appeal … god knows to whom … then there is indeed something terrible wrong with your outlook.
You started this all matey … with a bluster 3.5 years ago coming on the blog here with the sole purpose of trying to hurt, humiliate and get some vengeance for what you perceived as being cheated upon; and you kept at it for quite some time. As you have repeatedly stated on this blog, you “bring it all upon yourself”, and, as I see it, have lost all credibility from most.
Good luck with your own blog … but make sure you totally hide it from me.
OK finally took Otto the old Dachhsund to the vet and put him to sleep. Cried and screamed in the car on the way there (sorry otto). Wept at the vets, before and after. Wept 2 days ago, pretty sure this was the week that this was going down. Took 2 advil and not crying now, probably later since everything around me reminds me of him. The bed where I ended up giving him morphine every 2 hours, the lake park me and the 3 dogs used to walk around together, Z remembering holding him in her lap in the car when we went to the store or Chipotle every night. Bye Otto. That was the hardest thing i ever had to do in my life.
Sylvia,
> thanks, yes, I have heard about that ap.
> kittens have arrived yesterday evening, adorable, look like identical twins.
> one a bit shy at first, but completely at home today.
> they came up with a very funny and wild game, some kind of beach rugby in one of the litter boxes, mixed in with shadow boxing and high kung fu jummps and surprise attacks from under the bed to the one defending the litter box, for which they took turns. grit all over the place, but big fun, haha!
>
> afterwards they jumped onto the bed with me for a good purring rest, with the occasional lazy stretch full of wellbeing. soooo cosy!M
>
> > Otto,
> I am so sorry for you, although it was the kindest thing to do for your dear dog, it is so very very painful as all we want is our pet to feel happy and safe.
> you didm all that was possible and I am sure he knew, and he knew how much you loved him.
> M
I wonder if Otto’s dog also used to get his ‘shots’ probably so he already mentions the ‘vet’.(Vet Alert!!) Primal people in general are very ‘conventional’ in their beliefs about health etc This all seems so odd to me all the ‘medical care’ of these animals and the atrocious health if even that word can be used in relation to these poor animals. I probably should be ’emoting’ about Otto’s dog but I wonder why don’t people think about this a bit. Of course in primal any thinking is kind of frowned on as a ‘head trip’ result is people don’t think for themselves hardly at all. Co-incidence? Hardly Janov is meant to do all the ‘thinking’ and the followers are mostly discouraged people with little confidence in themselves and any bit they have tends to be eroded by the ‘ideology’ – some like Jack put themselves in the place of Janov and get more and more ‘confident’ and arrogant as THEY do the little ‘thinking’ involved. All ‘un-authorized’ when Janov in that interview was showing his colleagus, students, patients, co-workers etc I could see nary a trace of Jack. He is the court eunuch who is not even at the Court. But hey the dog died after a miserable life but Otto got a ‘cry’ out of it so not totally wasted to channel the primal mind set. He got to a feeling!……………….. now if he can just do more and more of that himself he might magically get well……………….’magically’ would be the right word as I see no evidence of that working either.. Also how similar to Margaret’s case with her cat, shots, vets, massive ill-health and the final straw being put to sleep I prefer to say killed by and with the very same ‘vet’ who more than likely started it all with his ‘shots’ and all the rest of it. It’s not as if here we don’t have a contrary example – David mentioned he has had lots of cats and dogs who routinely live up to 20 years with no ill health to speak and no ‘shots’ given and no need to be ‘put to sleep’ at the end where we all cry and ’emote’ and express our ‘support’ something that is all basically un-necessary. But in the primal mind set we all ‘get to feelings’ so it’s all worth it. Is it really?
Didn’t you go out to sea with a vetinarian (oops doctor) for paleo people and cry at least 4 times according to your story. What’s all this mocking people that cry. Isn’t crying a normal natural expresion for someone one who is very sad???? OR just for those on a boat with their guru??? I kind of get a feeling that somehow you are losing your marbles. Or as W. A. Mozart was filmed as saying … the Paloe elite, shit marbles. Quite different to the rest of us who shit differently.
Anyway; why are you still ‘blowing off’ here when you should be recruiting other disgruntled primalers and getting them to join your blog. According to you there are a great many. So you should have little problem recruiting quite a number; then you can (in congnito) spend the rest of your lives complaining about Janov, Margaret, Otto and have a ball (book load) going off about me.
Speaking about “The Keeper of the Crypt” I just came across this today (Jon Rappoport again) which seemed to me (I am sure to be ‘refuted’ by the very same Keeper. He would!) weirdly relevant to that notion.
“On air, the anchor is neutral – a eunuch. Ultimately, he is paving over the Void.
This is a time-honored ancient tradition. The eunuch, by his diminished condition, has the trust of the ruler. He guards the emperor’s inner sanctum. He acts as a buffer between his master and the people. He applies the royal seal to official documents.
All expressed shades of emotion occur and are managed within that persona of the dependable court eunuch. The anchor who can move the closest to the line of being human without actually arriving there is the champion.”
It’s kind of funny to think of Jack forever battling for Janov but is nowhere to be seen or heard in Janov’s inner sanctum. Once Janov told him (he says) that he liked his ‘book’ that’s it. Gretchen and Barry won’t even say if they read it. My feeling is they probably ‘tried’ as I did and many people I know did. None ‘finished’ the book from everything I heard though one lady I know got close………………
Otto is gone. The old dachshund is gone, died yesterday. Where’s Otto? Don’t see him on my bed today. I can still smell his pee on my bed. I can see the wood chips outside that I carried him to and set him down to pee. I can see me carrying him around the garden I planted, showing him stuff to keep him from getting bored, since he could no longer walk. Walked at the lake yesterday with Z and the other 2 dogs, without having to carry Otto the whole way around the lake. Now I am able to go out of my bedroom without Otto barking, not wanting to be left alone. Z won’t be calling me up at work complaining that she cannot work because Otto needed to be attended to every minute. I still won’t be able to cry in front of Z. I don’t know how she can appear to be happy; I know she is sad too. So…washing the dishes with fury, probably like my grandma did after my mom died. My teenage aunt probably resented the dishes getting more attention from grandma than she did. Teenage aunt is now 70-something. I don’t think she wants to talk about any of that. I can’t blame her. Washing the small bowls in which I used to mix Otto’s many medicines. We won’t be needing to use those for now. Is Otto’s spirit in the sky? Who knows…I could finally go to group, now that I don’t have to babysit Otto every minute. But I feel so estranged from group. I still hate that new Institute. Plus all the Retreat guys will be shoved into that small room. I can cry at home now if the music helps me; although I am shoving down my sadness with as much food as I can stuff down my throat. Still have feelings not attended to from other losses, let alone Otto. Oh well, bills to pay, live pets to attend to. Jar of peanut butter on my desk, peanut butter that I used to put Otto’s pills in before he stopped eating. Receipt from drug store for his meds on my desk. Not crying now. Maybe later.
Some more tears about Otto, while listening to that perennial sad song Bobbie McGee, Greatful Dead version. I had been walking him around the block for the past month at 5 in the morning. By walking, I meant me walking while carrying him. Seeing the back of his head as he looked down at things, interestedly, while ensconced in my right arm. (My right arm will probably stop hurting soon, he weighed 12 pounds). Walking in the dark down Victory Blvd, a few cars speeding past on their way to work. Cats or kittens on the sidewalk scurrying away as we got near. Sprinklers a-sprinklin at the apartment building getting us a tiny bit wet. Turn the corner and walk past the house where the lady sat on her steps, one or 2 times out with her 2 chihuahuas running around unleashed and following us down the block while she called out in some latin accent LOKI! LOKI!, can’t remember the other dog’s name. Always hoping she would be out there again. Turn another corner and there was grass I could walk on for a bit, turn the final corner back to our house, and the mockingbird would wake up and start singing, then almost home, and I always felt dizzy at that point, not sure why, not health-related. I did the walk so hopefully I could put him back with z in her bed so he would go back to sleep for a few more hours. Had to push the monster dog out of z’s bed, so I could put otto in there. Had to drug him up first. Then take the monster dog out to crap, and drive her with me to work, for me, and to my son’s house, for her. Then get some coffee at 7/11 and off to the boring job and monster bosses.
Still crying. Love is love and not fade away. thanks for letting me know about music route to feelings BB, or at least that it is a valid route. kinda always thought that it was.
Can’t do much for Z’s sorrow, i am not much of a person. Don’t want to hug. she misses kissing Otto’s nose, or at least the part where his snout met his nose. We have time on our hands now. Stopped listerning to music and just looking out at the tree leaves blowing in the wind. Feel bad. Can’t do much for her. I am useless. His body is in a refrigerator at the crematorium, waiting in line to be torched.
Just to piss off the “Keeper of the Crypt” his ‘official’ name (well not really – but how DO you deal with a ‘mad dog’ you can try patting him on the head, ‘threatening’ him with something, throw him some red meat but anything is pretty much useless he is a ‘mad dog’ and a mad dog will do what a mad dog will do – now wait for it. the ‘reaction’ should take about 5 minutes lol…………….anyway I was about to say here is a little bit more on vaccines and something that is not often considered. Vaccines are becoming a form of ‘genetic engineering’ a lot of people are concerned about doing that to plants and more and more animals too. Why would humans be spared from this ‘great experiment’?. Answer: They are not! We have GMO’s for plants and animals and vaccines for humans and animals. Animals get it from both ends
If anyone thinks this is crazy or have serious doubts about this we need look no further than here and look at the fate of Otto’s dog and Margaret’s cat. Do you really think their horrible lives and final killing has nothing to do with all those great ‘shots’ they got to ‘protect’ them God help us. ‘Protected’ from meeting other cats and dogs, ‘protected’ from having anything like a normal healthy life but not ‘protected’ from being murdered in the end. Here is the quote (Jon Rappaport)
“I want to extend the remarks I made about vaccines the other day.
The reference is the New York Times, 3/15/15, “Protection Without a Vaccine.” It describes the frontier of research. Here are key quotes that illustrate the use of synthetic genes to “protect against disease,” while changing the genetic makeup of humans. This is not science fiction:
“By delivering synthetic genes into the muscles of the [experimental] monkeys, the scientists are essentially re-engineering the animals to resist disease.”
“‘The sky’s the limit,’ said Michael Farzan, an immunologist at Scripps and lead author of the new study.”
“The first human trial based on this strategy — called immunoprophylaxis by gene transfer, or I.G.T. — is underway, and several new ones are planned.”
“I.G.T. is altogether different from traditional vaccination. It is instead a form of gene therapy. Scientists isolate the genes that produce powerful antibodies against certain diseases and then synthesize artificial versions. The genes are placed into viruses and injected into human tissue, usually muscle.”
Here is the punchline: “The viruses invade human cells with their DNA payloads, and the synthetic gene is incorporated into the recipient’s own DNA. If all goes well, the new genes instruct the cells to begin manufacturing powerful antibodies.”
Read that again: “the synthetic gene is incorporated into the recipient’s own DNA.” Alteration of the human genetic makeup. Not just a “visit.” “Permanent residence.”
The Times article taps Dr. David Baltimore for an opinion:
“Still, Dr. Baltimore says that he envisions that some people might be leery of a vaccination strategy that means altering their own DNA, even if it prevents a potentially fatal disease.”
Yes, some people might be leery. If they have two or three working brain cells”
Quote:- “Just to piss off the “Keeper of the Crypt”
Since you Patrick are now in the business of merely desirous to ‘piss me off’ … let me give you some info about a program I watched on PBS last night by a guy, not quite in my corner, with a PhD from Yale, that it advocating a revamp of the economic system whereby the workers take over the workplace. Not un-similar to what I tried to convince you to do with Gentle Giant … make it employee owned You may have in your great searches of the internet, heard of him:- Proff. Richard D. Wolff. If not you can look him up also on the internet.
I wrote him and received a response to say he would look into my message … but no promise to make an personal reply
I totally agree with you in that we are certainly into some weird stuff to combat disease. Much, by my way of reckoning, that Janov found a solution to, way back in 1967.
I listen to him (Richard Wolff) a lot on KPFK. I like him and agree with most everything he says in the economic sphere. He is very good on how dysfunctional our ‘economy’ is and has many interesting things to say about Greece etc. Not that that many are listening I don’t think…………..
It is ironic that you listen and like much of what Wolff says, but when I was suggesting running Gentle Giant in like mannner you were totally against it, since, presumably, it would have put you “The big boss” (dictator) on the same level as the rest of us. Seemingly you liked the ability to run arround with one thousand dollars in your wallet at all times.
I critique Wolff in a similar manor in that since “ECONOMICS is the study of money flow” It is tantamount to the STUDY of the pedestrian flow in any given city … USELESS, WORTHLESS AND POINTLESS.
Maybe … just maybe, you could by the same token get your head around Primal Theory and see (conceive) that YOU, a self admitted failure of Primal therapy wish to up-date, revamp or re-configure Primal therapy. Leave it to those doing the study and work, at the Primal Institute and Primal Center. Not Jack Waddington and certainly NOT Patrick Griffin. At best, both of us are merely patients.
An addendum:- The only ‘crypt’ for which I am the ‘keeper’ is my own personal piggy bank.
Further:- Just as Karl Marx was the genius he was to conceive and describe, very succinctly, the “capitalist system”, so also R. D. Wolff is able to do likewise. By my reckoning it was in both cases, how they considered (conceived) the means out of it; that was/is flawed. Just as with the “French Revolution”, they got rid of the rulers (the monarchy) to merely replace it with another. It’s the whole system that needs to be scrapped and that includes 99% of the medical profession. Which is a practice that is tantamount to closing the barn door AFTER the horse has bolted. I suspect Jack Kruse is in the same ball game (category).
Primal Theory aims to deal with the problem at it’s very core, source or, what you will.
For an extremely arrogant and conceited sob……………..you strangely are mute and quite when it comes to the PI. You are a mere ‘patient’ and so is the dependency fostered and the appeal to a non existent ‘authority’ maintained. Just goes to show most people need a ‘religion’ you have certainly found yours. Now chill out we know about your religion and like all religious fanatics it gets very tiresome. Do YOU like talking to Jehovah’s Witness………………no need to answer please don’t answer if you can I have heard it all a million times already. I get it you BELIEVE……………..BFD! What a wanker!
PS I wonder what ‘study and work’ has been done by either Janov or the PI…………much like you they seem content to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat………….I would say what is remarkable is the LACK of any study or work. Why should they they have already ‘got’ it………………a typical religious attitude.
You can wave ‘failure’ in my face all you like (ass-hole!) but I know better and have found my own way now. No longer listening to the likes of you who never wished me well anyway. I have seen through the hollowness and the aridity of your ‘life style’ I think you have gotten worse since you moved back in with JIm. Perhaps there is now less opportunity for fellating (or whatever you do I am not even sure what that means but we all know what I am talking about) large black strangers………………….so you are at a loose end it certainly feels that way. You take out your hatred on me constantly……………..I think you might be better served by going back to your old ways of promiscuous sex with the wrong gender and using the wrong orifice and with strangers.. Then maybe you could stop lecturing me on all the ‘wrong’ things I do and did. You use the ‘wrong’ gender and the ‘wrong’ orifice why don’t you start there and kind of keep to that. Then you might be busy with yourself instead of all your posturing and ‘acting out’ fucking hypocrite………………NEVER has ‘practiced’ primal therapy in any way just fucking ‘lectures about it……………what a wanker!!!
It occurs to me vaccines would be a good ’cause’ for Dr Janov to explore. Both from the point of view of traumatizing children (not a small matter, just think what a visceral fear we all have still to this day for ‘needles’ aside from being stabbed to me it’s one of the worst things that could happen to me. Imagine a 2 day old child now being ‘stabbed’ and that is when they start and well don’t stop until the child is like 18 or something. Maybe 50 ‘shots’ later) and also the ‘medical’ aspects of it which I would imagine he is quite qualified to speak about. A case of really f….. up infants and children and we see the ‘results’ all around us. ADD,Autism etc on and on.
Of course in the ‘respectable medicine’ community that would be the end of him. Now responsible for TWO (count them) ‘wacko’ theories primal therapy (pretty bad) and now ‘worse’ he is an ‘anti-vaxxer’ If he lacked ‘legitimacy’ before the anti-vaxxer label should really do him in. I notice in a lot of the media now they very often lump ‘global warming denialists’ and ‘anti-vaxxers’ as being the same kind of people…………….anti-science, irrational, crazy etc.
I must be some kind of freak because I think global warming is our greatest problem and see no reason at all to ‘deny’ it but I also think vaccines is one of our greatest self imposed problem as a species. What does that make me 1/2 anti-science 1/2 irrational or 1/2 crazy lol…………..
Reminds me of an “Irish” joke. An Irish immigrant returns to the ‘old country’ from America. He is sight seeing and touring around the country in his car. He comes across a railway crossing but the gate is not either open or closed it is at like a 45 degree angle 1/2 open or 1/2 closed depending on how you look at it
He waits. Nothing happens waits some more still nothing. Finally he get’s out of the car and asks the attendant what is going on is it safe to go or should he wait.
The attendant says “Ah sure we’re 1/2 expecting a train. Oh well maybe you had to be there lol……………
> Otto, I was very touched by your description of how you walked around the block with Otto on your arm.
> there is so much love and tenderness there.
> sadness about the loss is one more facet of that same love. for me it helped to think about my cat being in my heart.
> my best girlfriend said to me my cat would surely be bragging about me in cat heaven, I am sure Otto will be showing off with you there too, in doggy heaven in his case.
> it was also touching you showing your dog stuff and talking to him so he would not be so bored for not being able to walk around.
> sounds like you work hard to take care of all of them, getting up so early in the morning and so
>
> M
> David,
> you are very silent lately.
> maybe you are getting a better view now about how Patrick ruthlessly uses other people’s grief to show off with his crazy act out.
> I find this so sick and ugly I deleted the last comment I ran into after te first lines.
> it gets worse seemingly, I find that somewhat worrying, but by now feel pretty powerless as I have tried in many ways to get through, clearly in vain.
> it is sad really, and somewhat scary.
> Patrick, I know you don’t like to be talked about without being adressed, so here is the only thing I can think of to say to you, in an honest effort to for old times saake, I think you need help, please go see Gretchen.
> M
Margaret – thanks for your concern but I am fine. At least I feel fine. If I were you I would look to yourself and I can imagine your cat in cat heaven saying that lady meant well and tried to love me…………….but she f… me up so bad by turning me over to the ‘vets’. She meant well but she was badly mistaken.
I guess I feel a bit similar about you……………you mean well (more than I can say for Jack – he does NOT mean me well)…………but you are mistaken. At least an honest mistake not like the other one…………….he does not mean well or do well or think well……………but he constantly ‘promotes’ himself. What is to promote how to do everything ‘wrong’ wrong gender, wrong orifice……………wrong thinking……………..and yet he’s ‘proud’ of it………………what a wanker!!
Margaret – a bit ‘typical’ of you also you ‘interpret’ what David is thinking…………….you have NO IDEA is my guess……………maybe stick with that. And NO your cat would not be ‘bragging’ about you nor would Otto’s dog …………..why should they. You are so self absorbed and think ‘love’ overcomes everything……………….I could advise you to see Gretchen though like Jack you have done plenty of that with seemingly very meager ‘results’ That’s why now I am fine with being a ‘failure’ in primal as constituted……………..is it POSSIBLE to ‘suceed’ I doubt it from all the ‘evidence’ I have seen I have ‘liberated’ myself from the nonsense and I still think there is an important place for PT but NOT the way I have seen and experienced it……………..but thanks for caring I do feel it to be genuine.Meaning well is a good step but knowing well and doing well is often something else. All our parents ‘meant well’ did they do well……………..not so much it seems……………..
Margaret: I was reminded in your latest comment to Patrick; of a conversation I had with my brother in law, just before I set off to Los Angeles to do Primal Therapy. He said to me: he being a brick layer and having made quite a bit of money:- “The only Time I would see a psychologist or psychiatrist was when he/she needed my help”. I kind of feel Patrick would have a similar response to your suggestion.
My sense of Patrick is that he now feels so isolated and so hurt that he needs DESPERATELY to fire back, in the hope that he comes off as being … smart.
I am absolutely convinced he would do well running his own blog with like minded people. I doubt he’ll find that many on this blog however … but whatever.
whatever whatever ‘wank’ away wanker!! I am fine I have never felt so ‘sane’ it helps when I REALLY ‘free’ myself from your nonsense. I find all this anal-ising’ me you and Margaret pretty ironic…………….you are both crocked up HIV positives with no life and you both dose yourselves with toxic drugs that literally don’t allow you to ‘think’ straight (crooked thinking lol) . I am fine wanker………………do your self a favor go out and find yourself a LARGE black man…………….leave me the fuck alone…………your are a poser and a hypocrite…………….it really seems moving back with Jim has caused you a problem not that you did not have plenty before but the level of hatred is constant and un-remitting. I am sure people think I am going off the deep end here……………..NO! I am just fucking sick of literally sick people who dose themselves with toxic drugs ‘lecturing’ me about health or mental health. You BOTH don’t have a fucking clue……………….I pay NO mind to anything you both say……………physicians heal thy-selves……………fucking hypocrites…………….
Irish humour takes a bit of being there, listening. I like that about it. Like the Irish account of the origins of the formal Brit dining dogma, knife in right hand, fork left; etiology, paranoia. LOL here…. Brit humour kind of hits you over the head, American is in your face. I am always amazed how blog ha ha humour goes unrecognized, or interpreted, unless, an acronym or emoticon denotes it is meant to be humourous or kindly satirical. Native Americans use humour to avoid feeling fear. The Inuit use it to insult, veiled anger.
I am told I don’t know the history of the blog. That is true. Barry Bernfield, and I paraphrase, once wrote about relations and holding up staff relationships as an example, said, …” we don’t always agree. Some days we don’t even like each other very much. But I would trust any one of them with my life.”
I don’t believe in Gods or their fictitious prophets, but if I were wrong and the neurosis concocted character JC himself appeared, or blogged, and recommended Patrick Griffin, that would not be enough here. He is permitted no wiggle room, no compassion. I used to criticize my profession for eating it’s young, practice exactly the opposite of their creed in their personal and inter staff/professional relationships. This is supposed to be a place to speak, to express, to present feelings, actually, ” For Comments”. But,it’s like equality, it only applies to the anointed.
I’m not over smart enough or over together enough to recommend anything to anyone else, but it might not be a bad idea to think on that, and see if there any attached feelings..
I suspect Patrick will give up on you. A feral cat could expect more humanity. My brother used to get great glee from tormenting my old Lab who only knew how to love. Then one night he pretended to be attacking me, and kind old Rex who never retaliated sprang into action, and pinned my brother to the floor and issued him strong warning. He’d had enough. My brother demanded I have him killed, (euthanize is such a sanitized word,) and I ordered my brother from my house, to never return. He never saw that coming because I was like old Rex, capable only of putting up with crap, forgiving, and loving. He misjudged both of us.
David: “The Inuit use it to insult, veiled anger.” Therein lies the very nature, (the essence) of the expression of anger. I mentioned all this in my last book, but maybe I did not make it very clear. An attempt to insult, hurt or in anyway degrade another, one is angry with, is not IMO, the true expression of anger … rather, it becomes a “blame game” and as I see it, and have experienced it. It is not resolving of the angry feeling.
The origins of all this, as I see it, emanates from all that we were left with as children … in that we were forbidden to express anger in that natural way that children do instinctively: hence we then began to take it out on the nearest thing or person to us, and make it a “blame game” in order to subliminally, justify it.
It’s a terrible irony that leaves us with what is then known as “resentment”, and not healing. Merely just my feeling about the matter.
Always having the ‘last word’ or attempting to. You are talking about me but now in your sly indirect and dishonest way.Making some ‘point’ like some demented professor. Some bogus point of primal doctrine or ‘religion’ or even theology it has got o that point with you.
You have sniped and mocked me and relentlessly ‘quoted’ me and criticized me for weeks now. I ‘ignore’ it I made a vow to just ‘express’ myself I DO NOT NEED your creepy ‘attention’ you have said yourself if you see me on the street you would just walk on by………………..fine that’s ok with me so leave me the fuck alone here then. I don’t anal-ise and critique everything you say, you yak on about ‘abolishing money’ or whatever head tripping nonsense I leave it alone whatever I am not impressed but it’s what you are doing. You seem an empty and hollow person with nothing to do and you lie in wait for me like a spider with a fly and try to hook me in some way.
I lost my cool with you I do not feel bad about it or that I did anything wrong. You mouth words like ‘healing’ you are the same wanker who proudly states he never forgives or forgets (me) you are a huge hypocrite and as David says one day I may just ‘leave’ here and REALLY get away from your crap but for some reason I still don’t want to or am not ready. I get the feeling you want to drive me off but you also enjoy f… with me.
As far as your use of toxic drugs I think it is big factor in how close to a cadaver you act. I see it as more than a co-incidence that both you and Margaret are scratchy and intolerant of other ideas, you are quick to take offence and both ‘defend’ primal and act as it is under attack if I hint even at a slight inconsistency or whatever. Margaret CANNOT it seems see I am trying to show her how to have a better experience with her new cat and more to the point the cats will have a better life. That simple but she has built this up and up another characteristic of both or you. You NEVER ‘back down’ but up the ante constantly. You double down on your mistakes constantly.To be clear I don’t believe HIV is anything at all if I am sure of one thing is it is the ‘wrong’ target………….but your use of drugs to ‘combat’ it makes both of you into crazy monsters. I am sure that seems exaggeration but that’s the way I see it. You are both intolerant crazy monsters if any difference come up or any attempted ‘education’ is done. If you could or would only see I have something to ‘offer’ you a lot that would actually improve your live(s)
It is ironic though what does it say about the vitality of primal if the primal blog is ‘anchored’ and ‘dominated’ by two people on the same toxic drugs, drugs that for sure dim any vitality of life.. I am afraid it DOES say something about primal or the way it has evolved or mostly not evolved but has settled into some kind of terrible cul de sac.
You can no longer hurt me by calling me a ‘failure’ I embrace the failure tag in relation to a ‘therapy’ that has lost it’s way and lost it a long time ago. When I came to LA for therapy in 1978 so many things felt ‘off’ and to me the way I see it and understand it now WERE ‘off’ it has been a long and difficult journey for me to un-tangle all of that. I am not ‘bragging’ but really with little of no help from the PI though I always credit Gretchen for allowing this blog. It is the first time I feel I have been able to have my ‘say’ not at the PI originally or even recently the ‘tradition’ of the place militates against REALLY listening to people. I feel I have found my way now but don’t kid yourself that the ‘failure’ tag hurts me any longer. But it has cost me a lot and if Janov has more integrity and basic truthfulness a lot of my wanderings and ‘mistakes’could have been cut short.
What I find interesting is to me you are an even greater ‘failure’ and yet you seem to have no knowledge or recognition of that. Failure you might say is the coin of the realm when it come to ‘standard primal’. Failure is everywhere in it and inevitable in it. It HAS failed what is going on now is some face saving pretense – it has no influence in the world either of regular people or professionals. And to me the great shame is it should not be this way or in many ways could have avoided being this way. But it IS this way I wonder why more people don’t wonder about such a huge promise and such a broken result.
I havn’t heard anyone yet say how the retreat was……………as I said before I see little or no ‘retreating’ there more of a bolstering session. A good retreat practice IMO would be to wonder why are we still doing that? Retreat from the retreats makes a lot of sense
Quotes; and there are a plenty in this epistle, which I figure speak for themselves:- ” I ‘ignore’ it I made a vow to just ‘express’ myself ” “I lost my cool with you I do not feel bad about it or that I did anything wrong” ” I may just ‘leave’ here and REALLY get away from your crap but for some reason I still don’t ” “but you also enjoy f… with me” “I am trying to show her how to have a better experience with her new cat ” “You are both intolerant crazy monsters ” “I have something to ‘offer’ you a lot that would actually improve your live(s)” “You can no longer hurt me” “you are an even greater ‘failure’ ” “I havn’t heard anyone yet say how the retreat was……………as I said before I see little or no ‘retreating’ ” “Retreat from the retreats makes a lot of sense”
Yes ass-hole…………..and your ‘point’ is………….you always have a ‘point’ to prove……………….I am serious find a BIG black man before it is too late…………….dive down some wrong hole in the wrong gender and then come back and show what is ‘wrong’ with me. You are a pompous Lord Ha Ha fucking idiot………………..
I am familiar with the clinical. Conquered peoples learn to veil feelings and stop feeling to survive. I was a conquered person, by family abuse and by my local community that placed us somewhere below. The situation and the practice is still alive and well dominant factions trying to conquer the
undefended.
And the Irish are a very ‘conquered’ people. It engenders self hatred and an in-ability to every be whole again. And if I may be allowed a conceit or analogy it is interesting I feel I am even dealing with this right now today battling with Lord Ha-Ha with the potato in his mouth giving him that weird and superior accent and attitude. The English did not get to rule the world by being good people and we were the ones they ‘;practiced’ all their cruelty and deviousness on. Divide and conquer, intolerance of our language and religion and promoting THEIRS. And something that one of them is still doing it feels to me. Cruelty and deviousness I see in him in spades……………. and pushing his own demented religion. Excuse me I no longer care for your religion I have my OWN…………….let me nurture and respect that your’s is obviously NOT worthy of my respect…………..
I was jamming with some old band mates and others today. One referred to the Walk of Tears, from the Appalacians to Oklahoma, of the Cherokee and other Eastern Tribes as a , ” relocation.” Like they purchased the lands at market price and bussed them in air conditioned coaches.
It is estimated 70 % died en route, dehydration, starvation, fatigue. The able bodied carried their sick and dead until the day’s trek ended. Some mothers carried the bodies of their dead children to Oklahoma.
Some returned to their homeland from , ” the dead land,” another 5 year walk back.The monstrous effort was genocide.
Relocation ???? I lost it.
The Eastern Appalacian colonials learned how to construct local government, sophisticated log housing, farming, animal husbandry, medicine, anesthesia, surgical education, birth control, gravity fed spring water reserves, even the Town Hall concept, and village layout, from the Cherokee, a long permanently settled agrarian culture. Across the america’s my Amer-Indian ancestors were repaid by slaughter by the, ” civilized,” European invaders.
We are still mastered by the colonization mentality that keeps reinventing strategies to expunge North America/ Turtle Island of the Amer-Indian. That is felt to this day.
In an early post I discussed this non directed anger by mainstream white society; ie: sarcasm. Another voice of the same is elitism where one by words or intonation or tacit response wants to tell the other how it really is, as if he were the keeper of the real truth. That always strikes me as arrogant. On the other hand principled people, say like the Dalai Lama, speak their opinions, unwavering, and it feels compassionate.
David: I am not quite sure what you are getting at, other than perhaps you felt pissed (though I could well be wrong) that I repeated myself about how I see anger not being fully expressed … for the purpose of getting beyond it Maybe I read you wrongly. All I can add to that was that you were not being direct: … unless it was meant as some sort of humor. Sorry … it passed right over my cuckoo’s nest.
“for the purpose of getting beyond it” for YOU that is like the joke of the year or joke of the decade for you it’s the joke of the century………………..your principle is to NEVER get over anything……………..if you actually did you would not need to go on and on about PT for ever and ever…………..so your little toy would be taken away from you. A big case of ‘trauma bond’ loving your own trauma hoarding it and looking at it…………….it tends to fool most people that but not me……………….imagine a ‘stupid’ Irish farm boy seeing through Lord Ha Ha…………………ha ha ha that’s funny?
Just an add on that I forgot until I hit the post button. I have read Dr. Janov for nearly 45 years. And was employed in a profession that required clinical understanding and practice. And I understand non directed anger, it’s manifestations and it’s etiology.. I was simply alluding to how various conquered cultures use different ways to employ the defense. And how conquered children share those attributes, bullying, subservience, sarcasm, pleasing, non compliance, pleasing,… each of us assuming roles according to how we coped, before therapy. Sometimes I am merely just wanting to have a normal conversation with people who share an interest. No hidden agenda. A, what do you think about this, conversation ?? Substituting this gadget for face to face interaction is a skill I haven’t mastered. An unknown communicating with unknowns. Maybe not a fit for me. Better perhaps to assemble a group of real bodies in real time. Ah, I’m talking too much, saying nothing.
David: No! that came across to me much more clearly. I grant that talking face to face is more natural and normal, but since blogging is here to stay, as I see it, we then need to master it, if we wish to continue to communicate in this media.
I personally love it, and have been at it for some years now before this blog was created. It appeals to the arguamentative-ness within me.
I feel horrible with the dog being gone. I would feel worse if I wasn’t taking antidepressants. I am trying to install an air conditioner via the instructions that come with it. You know how that goes. At least for me with my scrambled brain, left/right reversed. I gave up, too hot now, try to finish tomorrow. I got some corn squash and tomatoes going in my garden. Not sure how high my water bill is going to be, pretty high. Kid and Z went out to do something. What more can I say.
Wow, Otto; yep I’ve had hair to my waist, a 2 foot diameter afro, pony tail, native double plaits ; I, too, feel I missed it all, the genuine experience because I only rebelled to support the rights, needs and feelings of others. I either didn’t know I had or had stopped feeling I had any.
> David,
> ok, we seem to have a different notion about humour.
> I think and that is my personal opinion, that it is right to react against personal attacks on people about their sexual orientation for example, and other offennsive namecalling just with an intention to hurt.
>
> it is also Barry Bernfeld which now comes to my mind, who once said being in group, or in this case being on a blog, should not be different from being in a regular social conversation, we should be able to express ourselves, but as in any social interaction social correction or social feedback is valuable.
>
> you don’t seem to see how often we try to help Patrick.
>
> in response one moment I am referred to as genuinely caring, the next comment I am attacked upon my medical status, which is a private matter which I could sue him for for putting it out here in public.
>
> and for what purpose?
>
> merely probably because he is angry at Jack for pointing out some painful truth and in his own way imo Jack tries to help Patrick as well besides teasing him and having his own agenda.
>
> but hey, it is ok, we see things differntly seemingly, so be it.
> M
Margaret – It is not really a case of ” personal attacks on people about their sexual orientation” it is specifically and only this ‘wanker’ and what he does and how he is. As for as this wanker trying to ‘help’ me all I can say is ‘are you serious?”
I appreciate you still come up for air and try to make sense of things………………….I will just say again ‘think’ a bit. All of my stuff about vaccines HIV etc is not personal to you. It is something I have discovered over the last few years. And I have found the process ‘exciting’ to me discovery and wonder about things is exciting. And I at times want to share or talk about it here. If the likes of Jack just dismisses all this as a ‘head trip’ he just makes the world poorer and nastier than it already is. And that seems to be largely what he is about.
> wow, without having said anything I go from being called genuinely caring in one comment to being called an intolerant monster in the next.
> but hey, it is not personal, is it?
> that’s ok then.
> M
Hey Margaret – it’s all ‘feelings’…………..and as to you I honestly see your good side and also what I think of your ‘mistaken’ side NOT bad side. To me Jack has gone over so far to the ‘dark side’ the ‘bad’ is mostly what is left. Sad really. You have good intentions and you have ‘helped’ me in the past and you have tried more often and maybe I didn’t take it up as much as I might As far as ‘mistakes’ in the end it is a matter of opinion I would say to you I don’t just shoot my mouth off (though that too) but there is a kernel of truth most of the time in what I see and say.
After all I saw the potential and greatness of Arthur Janov when I was a mere 20 y.o. Not bad for a boy just up from the farm. Jack likes to say I was just a ‘speed reader’ I am quite sure I knew and understood at least as much about it as he did. By the time I came here at 26 y.o. I had read all 5 books several times and ALL the Journals of Primal Therapy. So it was a huge thing for me and at a young and formative age…………………all the greater the let down when I come here and first week become aware of Dr Holden handing out Thorazine like it was candy and other very bad ‘signs’. As I said these ‘signs’ were signifiers to something quite problematic at the core of PT. Something I now believe to be the case. But squaring all this has not been easy for me but I do believe I CAN ‘forgive’ if not forget. I move on as best as I can
This sums up my day today interacting with some of the ‘retreaters’. Did I slip over the line probably in their eyes yes in my own not really or if I did it’s all good……………..
> Patrick,
> what were you referring at in your comment , the one, soryy if I misquote a bit, where you say ‘this was my day. might have passed the line with some retreaters but that’s ok’
> I did not really understand that comment.
> jack and me did not go to the retreat this year.
> so what was that about?
> M
Margaret – I better not say so much but it involved a bit of what we used to call ‘gate crashing’ by me.Nothing intentional but one thing kind of led to another but in my opinion as I say I felt “it’s all good”
I didn’t get that feeling from the people there however ………………..I think it is fair to say they were/are not ‘impressed’ by me and it’s fair to say v\ca versa for my part. A very strong feeling of repeaters if not so much ‘retreaters’ a feeling almost of a ‘terminal’ situation for some individually and the ‘movement’ as a whole.
Anything else I say would be gossip and best avoided in my opinion……………..it’s only important if gossip is important which I don’t think it is. But I got an idea now…………….instead of talking about the Retreat maybe we should call it the Repeat. As in are you going to the Repeat this year? Who was you buddy at the Repeat? Were you at last year’s Repeat. I like the sound of that and I think it is way more accurate.
Gretchen was cool one of the few – others who kind of anoint themselves in her place not so much in my humble opinion……………
> Patrick,
> am I very far from the truth if I make a wild guess that you ‘barged in’ so to say in group?
> am smiling right now, wishing I would have been there, though maybe it is not really funny.
> why did in that case you not simply sign up for group?
> ha, I am burning with curiosity now, smiley.
> swear I did not hear anything about it at all, only reading the blog here.
> M
> Patrickk,thinking about it some more, I am really curious as to what, apart from daily living a life in a healthy way and being in touch with some real actual issues, would represent for you a good and productive primal experience, not in a general way but in a specific way of dealing with some primal personal event.
> like if you would picture an ideal situation, session, group setting, otherwise, in which you could allow yourself to submerge into a feeling you want to work through, and possibley share, as that is yet another level than having feelings by oneself, a lot of the time anyway.
>
> I am really curious as to how you’d picture, imagine it should be for you to work.
>
> you had such high expectancies of primal, how did you picture it then?
>
> did you imagine the therapists would do something special to trigger you for example?
>
> that would be an expectation many of us might have had.
>
> reality is they can help a great deal very often, helping us to cross that last line of defense, but it remains the patient who has to do it.
>
> and for what you say about repetition, some feelings are huge, and have to be gone through many times over to be processd entirely, at first sight it might seem a simple repetition, but all the time things keep changing and the inner feeling keeps evolving, and improvment keeps happening, which you might not believe of course, but well, it is my repeated experience, smiley, personal and by watching and observing others.
>
> specially coming over only once a year it is easier to witness true changes in people, some subtle, other quite obvious.
>
> but well, as you still see a lot of good in primal I still wonder about how you picture its practice, and why you do not allow yourself to give it a try with a skilled person like Gretchen, what do you have to lose?
>
> of course it would be of no use if only to prove it does not work, if you do not want to be vulnerable it would not work.
>
> M
Margaret – your post deserves a proper response but I don’t have the time now I promise I will but also I don’t want to stoke more ‘controversy’. Honestly how much of anything I say will not be ‘refuted’ ‘contested’ ‘rejected’ ‘contended’ on and on by Jack (my feeling). It gets hard here running a fucking gauntlet all the time. Life should not be THIS hard this un-yielding and yes this un-feeling
But I appreciate your questions some ‘answers’ will come I am pretty sure. I dunno just the use of the word ‘gate crashing’ appeals to me. Reminds me of the hippy and squatting days when usually the way to any ‘party’ was to gate crash it. Did you have some kind of similar word in Belgian or Dutch. It just has a good kind of anarchic feeling to it.
For some reason this song reminds me of yesterday Thin Lizzy Irish rockers as it happens called “Jailbreak” though I was not really trying to break out of a jail I was trying to break into one lol. As usual I am getting it backward or ‘wrong’. Gretchen was the only one who felt was likely to give me a pass. But she was ‘over ruled’ by certain ‘self appointed’ jailers………….well let them have their jail I think I am better off being ‘free’ even if it gets lonely out here. I will send you the song to your email too as I know you have some difficulty with the links sometimes. The song is not a big deal just reminded me now of that kind of anarchic spirit but as I say I am/was trying to break INTO a jail. Go figure as they say……………
Todays quote:- “Life should not be THIS hard this un-yielding and yes this un-feeling”
Yesterdays quotes:- “I ‘ignore’ it I made a vow to just ‘express’ myself ” “You can no longer hurt me”
A prior quote:- “I bring it all on myself”
The ‘point’ here seems to be maybe I am ‘in-consistent’ or ‘contradictory’ to myself or something. Maybe to a ‘computer mind’ that is the case, but we are not computers and the ‘apostle of feelings’ still JUDGES them all the time for some reason. Judge-mentality the very opposite of feelings…………..I don’t think any of these ‘statements’ are even contra-dictory and so what if they are?
I try to be as kind as possible and see it as an example of ‘computer mind’ though really I suspect it is more of a case of ‘cadaver mind’ brought on by toxic drugs…………….though the tendency was always there………….
…………….always an ‘answer’ even if you have forgotten the question………………anyway I use words as they occur to me and as I feel ‘appropriate’………….but I agree me using the word ‘kind’ is a little out of character……………….maybe my ‘therapy’ starts to work lol………………I am actually ‘deep down ‘ a kind person though I can see how that concept can be abused………………probably Hitler or Stalin for example were ‘deep down’ kind also if you get my drift………………
I don’t want to forget Winston Churchill……………..I don’t think he was any ‘better’ really than those two……………he has had much better PR of course…………..the English are VERY good at PR something I struggle with to this day…………….there is some ‘research’ that says give a guy or girl I guess a good English accent and their IQ goes up about 20 points in the view of the audience…………….the Irish are a lot more ‘primitive’ and closer to their feelings as a consequence………………tend to get a bad press as a result but and of course it is a generalization the Irish are much closer to what I call ‘true primal’ than the more ‘developed’ peoples……………….I even think ARE ‘developed’ people too far gone to even know what ‘true primal’ is their ‘cultural values ‘ of disposability and cutting off is mostly just TOO developed.and ingrained in them?. In Ireland last Summer it occurred to me the ‘average’ Irish person can ‘conflict solve’ way better than the average primal person. It starts with something as simple as not being under the illusion that one person has ‘all’ the truth with that as a kind of starting point things can go somewhere………………now I have to admit I am not a great example of a kind of ‘indigenous’ Irish I was un-fortunatly brought up to ape the English to my great cost……………we looked to England because we ‘hated’ ourselves…………………self hatred is a son of a bitch to deal with but is a consequence of colonialism and as I say the English ‘practiced’ all their cruelty and deviousness on us. In that way we probably got MORE of it than say even the Africans because it went on for hundreds of years…………….they ‘perfected’ it on us and then applied it to the world…………
Having just returned from the incredible fold of being with good people out to help themselves and others at the Retreat, scanning the blog is absolutely shocking! Just full of blame and crap.
How fortunate that we had around 40 people who were able to expose their inner turmoils and hurts. We had controversies that people then uncovered more truths about themselves – not continuous lashings outs. We had emotional maturity and fun! So many good laughs, experiences and connections.
Truly magical – in that what happened there is not found anywhere else. The individual growth of people in 1 week was astounding – not all in the same way but for each person.
I will hold onto it and so many memories and people for as long as I can.
This blog is poisoned and does not at all represent what Primal Therapy is about and can give.
Leslie
Leslie, I agree with everything you say here about the retreat. It was a tremendous experience for me and today I find myself still thinking about things that happened there. Reading the blog is discouraging, as it is mostly a wasteland. It is indeed kind of “poisoned”; not everything but enough to kind of ruin it. Phil Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:48:24 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
David and others: There is nothing anyone can do to turn this current situation on the blog arrond, whilst Getchen made it clear that no-one will be banned. To and for me I felt that was a great decision and felt the purpose was to allow all comments (Gretchen might correct me), however distasteful any one, or group was re-acting to it. All re-action to what is taking place need that the person/s re-acting to look into themselves … and self analyse what it is that is happening to themselves.
Patrick for whatever is deeper motives are is re-acting … to quote Artthur Janov … on auto pilot IMO. No-one can tell, educate, eluicidate or pacify Patrick. He needs to come to terms with himself in his own good way and in his own good time.
Seemingly, he is greatly upset with the way I re-act to him. He needs to resolve that “upset-ness” on his own terms … whatever that be.
Now I need to say how all this affects me. It is a multifaceted factor for me. The first being, that I have a longer history with Patrick than anyone else on the blog. Equally Patrick has that some history with me.
Another is that I do not feel insulted, hurt, bothered or upset by his responses to me. I have said in the past:- I cannot be insulted … I can only allow myself to FEEL insulted … and in these instances I don’t. If all this was happening with someone I really cared about that would be a different matter and I have no doubt I would be deeply hurt. I have little or no intentions of re-acting differently to pacify anyone’s distastes. That is their issue … not mine
Lastly; for this comment of mine. I do have a ‘perverted’ sence of fun putting Patrick’s words back to him. Life is getting short for me and I wish to get as much fun, pleasure, joy and contentment as I can out of it, whilst it lasts. Blogging, and especially this blog, offers that to me.
> Patrick,
> ok, I am curious to hear your response to my questions.
> I think it would help, in order to get less oposition, if you’d word what you picture in positive terms, not just mentioning what it should not be, but focus on how you would like it to be for you, personally.
>
> and no, I don’t know a word in our language for gatecrasher, don’t even ran into the concept ever.
>
> M
> if I may express my personal opinion, apart from still wanting to hear Leslies of course, of course it can be turned around, it is what we make of it.
>
> if say a minimum of two people keep being constructive in what they write, and sincere or vulnerable or whatever way of being honest, even angry, but in a way that is useful, not only namecalling , but well, I should not have to explain, we are all adults with sufficient intelligence, this blog is still worthwhile, regardless of any occasional well, whatever one wants to call it.
>
> noone is forced to read all the details of what seems not to add anything, just skip through it, and add your own entry which means something to you.
>
> staying away won’t help, on the contrary.
>
> i hope people will hang around and stick it out, glad you wrote here, Leslie, and Phil, seems like it was a very good retreat for what I heard of it so far.
>
> no regrets I did not go this year, am doing fine here with enough things to do and two fine kittens that keep me, and themselves very happy.
> they are bouncing balls of curiosity and playfulness and affection.
> M
The retreat for me was a great experience; the reuniting of old friends, the getting to know a little more about each other, and the making of new friends. As you say, Leslie, controversial, fun, warm, raw, connective, and the overall emotional maturity…plus – waking in the morning and always someone there to speak or wave to before breakfast, the beautiful surroundings, the trips off site… fascinating, engrossing, interesting, life-enhancing and life-changing.
Thank you to everyone 😂😱😪😳😔😕😍😘
I’m lost. First day of coming home from work, without Otto being there to bark at me, to pick him up and hold him. I don’t feel like I can cry now, but I hope I can, so that I don’t leave grief unfelt. I feel so horrible but of course the whole thing is starting to go underground.
i feel that there is a lot of sorrow and pain and love and love lost in EVERY comment in this blog. Just got to read between the lines sometimes. So we keep on keeping on…
Otto; Thank you for your sharing. I always read you carefully. This is a huge insight you have painted. Even if known to every reader, it’s a lovely gift laid out like this.
Your ability to be totally open, “vulnerable,” is a popular word these days is amazing. You let it all hang out. That takes great courage. It happens accidentally when I get on a loose canon rant. But you seem totally present with it.
To some, maybe, most, people, their non human family members, they call pets, “my,” as in ,” mine,” denoting ownership,( like the marriage certificate.) They determine creature comfort and length of existence by logical financial measures. My neighbour’s lovely old Blue Tick Hound has her heated non attached heated suite. All he gives her are survival comforts, and a rare walk. No regular human interaction since his wife died 2 yr ago. He gave her about the same amount of attention. Then there are those of us who love unconditionally and share at least equitably with all family members we take on, down to the gold fish. And we think of their best interests and converse with them beyond, “go lie down, be quiet, and good dog.” And we grieve them when they die. I feel bad for the road kill; they had a right to live. I’ve yet to find a human who will extend that luxury to me. Perhaps, in reality it’s only to be expected from a parent, a mother in particular. I only add that to save someone from having to tell me. 1/2lol
That’s deep trauma. As an adult. Knowing that the day of Otto’s death was finally at hand. Getting out of bed and calling the vet’s and making a 9am appointment for euthanasia. Knowing that I was driving him to the vet to do this deed. Some crying and screaming in the car on the way, but not enough. Taking him and Sophie the other dachshund for their last short walk near the vet’s. he did not want to be put down on the grass, so I picked him back up. Going into the Vet’s, knowing what awaited us. He made it clear that he did not want to die. Holding him in the Vet’s exam room, waiting for the vet to come, sobbing. The kind vet explaining the procedure and taking him out of the room to get the catheter in his arm. The vet coming back later saying that Otto was already tranquilized. Now I was to hold him while the vet slowly dripped the final drug into Otto to slowly ease him down, then he pushed the rest of it. And said whatever he said, he is gone, I don’t remember what he said. Stuff to ease my pain…he was already close to the end…stuff like that. Then he was leaving and said to take all the time I needed. I petted Otto’s lifeless body for 10 mins and wept a little, and put Sophie on the table to see his death but she didn’t. I needed to scream. But you don’t do that at the vet’s, and so that scream remains in me. At least I wept. I have taken more than one pet in my life to be put to sleep, I don’t remember crying much at those times, so that grief is still in me. Some cultures more close to the ground allow their people (or at least their women) to grieve loudly, maybe middle eastern comes to mind. I think our culture tries to shove it under the rug, although I have certainly heard loud grieving at the vet’s by other pet parents. The vet techs saying Sorry as I left with Sophie. They sent me a card too. This is not the best summer that I want to remember. I was barely able to go to the retreat last year because otto was starting to become a real handful. So much pain.
Leslie,
I am very glad you had a good retreat.
You are absolutely right about the state of the blog. Despite some sincere and worthwhile entries by some individuals, I do not feel it is reflective of the best of primal therapy right now. That is why I generally do not participate anymore. There seems to be a lot of wading through pseudo-intellectual, dense and meaningless entries to find some meaning and to get something close to what I would in group or at a retreat. Again, there are some people like yourself and Margaret (and others) who have meaningful entries. Maybe Margaret’s point is the key: if enough of us write meaningful stuff reasonably often, it may return more to what it was a while back: something closer to an online primal group where you can get support and people can have honest reactions to each other.
Donal
Hello, Donal; By the time I ,” arrived,” here, the mold had been cast. I was at the PI 86/87. Had a ,” buddy,” in a neighbouring province for a few years. And feeling on my own since. I live in Maritime Canada. My work background is family social work, social activism, mediation, individual therapy, and Natural Health.
How would you describe a , ” meaningful entry ?”
How did it use to be, and what would the layout, for want of a better word, that would allow it to function in the way you see it most appropriate and helpful to post -,primalers ?
Do you envision more of a, post “Big Group,” model ?? Is there any value in addition to spontaneous posts of a more real time sceduled ” group.” Varying time zones and the absence of an independent person to provide impartial support raise some obstacles. Just thinking….
David and others … again:- It is my feeling that if some of the responses were a little more direct and state just which comments and commentators they are disgusted with that might open things up a little more.
I do suspect that there are those that feel I am equally, or even more “disgusting” than Patrick. If that is the case I feel it would be more profitable towards resolution if we each were more specific. I feel that hinting can cause as many problems as is hoped to resolve … least-ways that is my experience.
To and for me, all feeling being expressed on a feeling blog are valid. There is nothing intrinsically terrible IMO, about anger or any other feeling. That to me is part of being human … on the proviso that it it expressed in such a way as to OWN that feeling … whatever it is.
One last point:- If things were getting “out of hand” I am sure Gretchen and/or Barry would be putting their ‘oar’ in. So far, neither has come forward with anything. I personally feel there is no need for them to do so. It will, IMO ‘all win out’.
I will read any and all responses to this one of mine, and if I feel it would be helpful … will respond.
Jack and Everyone, I think if more people would participate the blog could improve. But that’s probably unlikely to happen seeing what goes on here.One thing that bothers me a lot is Patrick’s endless diatribes againstprimal therapy and everything about it. I’m fine with the expressionof those opinions but not when they are never ending. What”s the point?It’s been going on many months even years. Diatribes on other topics are very tiresome aswell. Another thing is that the insults are pretty disgusting as well.Imagine this as a live group; with all the ranting, raving, lectures, and insultsI think everyone would leave the room. Patrick, you should consider attending a group and expressing all this stuff in person.Maybe you could then connect with something at a deeper level after everyone hasleft the room. Jack, your lectures to Patrick about primal seem to be a lost cause. Wouldn’tit be better to give it up, if possible? In my case, it would be healthier if I could just ignore all this crap, but I seem it havetrouble doing that. Phil
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 00:54:35 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – what I think you and maybe many others sort of misunderstand about me is – it is not necessarily just a ‘diatribe’ for diatribes sake. I have a big ‘personal’ issue about primal therapy mostly a negative one – believe it or not I do feel this blog has helped me a lot……………….I have a hard time expressing my own realizations about my own failures etc which is the other side of that coin. Like did primal therapy fail me or did I fail primal therapy? It doesnt really matter at this point but I feel it has been good for me and is still good for me to ‘explore’ a lot of this stuff.
I understand it is probably not so pleasant to have to read it. But and I hesitate to say this for fear of starting a whole new ’round’ but Jack being ready to pounce (I feel) on me all the time and this thing of quoting me and throwing it back at me I find very un-helpful. I mean it is hard for me to admit things but I feel if I do Jack will kind of be ‘crowing’ ha ha ha I told you so etc etc. This honestly makes it very hard for me and I think I might ‘progress’ through some of these issues better or quicker but is someone is at the ready to gloat or criticize etc…………………that’s a horrible environment to even try to express oneself. I mean it is beyond horrible it is stupid to even try but try I do. I am a sucker for punishment, I draw in on myself too it’s also connected to the self hatred I talked about.
I want to say also I agree with Leslie I think the atmosphere IS bad…………..and I am sure people probably think of me first in that regard. It’s not that I am not aware of all this but I FEEL ‘provoked’ by Jack really I would say only him. Like I would ask anyone here would they like or would they put up with constant badgering and ‘quoting back’ with a view to just fuck with me. I really doubt anyone would put up with that it is only me and my ‘masochistic’ tendencies and ability to take a lot of pain and tendency to ‘struggle’…………….anyway I do want to let people know I am not oblivious about the atmosphere and my ‘intentions’ are not bad even if I agree I can be quite ugly at times……………
I also do have some I believe substantive ‘issues’ with or about primal. I don’t think that should be off limits and I don’t see anything is served by a kind of head in the sand mentiality that primal is all hunky dory. I don’t believe it is but then what is? Deep down I feel a real sense of doom about the world nature especially so on one level it all seems a storm in a teacup really. If the oceans are dying and all the rest of it I don’t think Dr Kruse or Dr Janov will make much difference really. But in the meantime we (I) fight for and about things…………………
Patrick, What a joke! You want us to consider what you do here as “to explore a lot of stuff”.Maybe in one post out of every thirty. What I mostly see is a lot of bullying behavior and how you don’t give a shit about anyone. Your “exploring stuff” seems to be finding new insults and new ways to degrade and tear apartthe therapy and anyone interested in participating in it. Phil
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 02:30:29 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I take your point and will go over you comment several times later … but off the bat on first reading, the unlikehood of readers not re-acting … for whatever their reason, to me, has some history for each of us. It is at this point, I will quote Vivian who ofter suggested at the retreats (she was my assigned therapist) “Take a risk”.
The point of me “lecturing” was a point I made to Margaret on the blog and David in private. Patrick, as I read him from my 30 years of expereince of him would dominate the blog to the point of ‘everone’ leaving. I respond by way of countering his arguaments. Maybe I fail in that endeavior. Alternatively he could be pursuasive to doubters who only visit this blog and never comment.
For whatever my deeper reasonings (subliminal or otherwise) I am tempted to counter him. Not necessarily to change Patrick, but to ‘hopefully’ show there is another point of view. If that is me being deffensive, then feel free to tell me so … anyone
That is the kind of, “group'” I was looking for, and envisioned. Maybe it’s just my romantic dreaming self.
The mingling in the entry hall between the Big Group room and Individual rooms, was often as therapeutic as anything.
Donal – thank you for responding. I personally also know other good people like you who have gone on the blog and are disheartened and at times disgusted by its content.
Gone is the welcoming, sharing of pain and in its place is a gong show.
I have tried to create what I want to see, get and connect with on the blog for some time now. I recognize when others have too. Unfortunately, it gets smothered and the firestorm appears to take over again and again.
L.
> hi Donal!
> so good to hear you again, I truely hope you stick around!
> how are your studies and choice of direction with it?
>
> Leslie, one way to maybe make things easier is to receive the comments by mail then after a quick runover in case of possible disgust just a tap on the delete button will do the trick and even make you feel good, smiley..
> Patrick, don’t forget you were going to reply to my questions about how you’d like to go about your personal therapy in an ideal case, apart from the helalthy living issues.
>
> and I also think you might profit on looking into the fact Jack has on several occasions responded in a very positive and supportive way to you on the occasions you truely talked about your feelings.
>
> it also struck me what you said about being a sucker for punishment. it reminded me of what I mentioned a few times in the past about assuming a victim role.
> I am not analizing, as I do not understand what goes on there for yyou, it is only up to you to unravel what goes on in your heart.
>
> I refuse to be pessimistic about this blog, I strongly feel it is what we make of it, which is up to us.
>
> already right now it feels so much more constructive, for the time being, smiley.
>
> maybe by the time my comment gets posted it will all be rants again, hope not!
> I specially feel disgusted by the name calling, as that feels utterly useless and even destructive for all parties.
>
> we have a saying that more or less goes that who plants winds will harvest storm.
>
> M
Margaret: You truly are the staple of the blog and though there have been times when I felt you went on at great lengths about certain things, in hindsight I knew you needed to do that. In this comment what I liked most was:- ” I refuse to be pessimistic about this blog, I strongly feel it is what we make of it, which is up to us.” I agree wholeheartedly with that.
I was thinking over the recent comments this morning as I went for my early morning short walk, made my breakfast, then came to my computer to read my emails. I thought over some of the comments over the years, made by therapists that meant a great deal to me:- “What’s the feeling?” “Name the feeling”. “Keep it simple” “What did that do to you?” “What does the feeling want to say?” and the one I mentioned yesterday that Vivian on several times repeated:- “Take a risk”.
It is relatively easy to look back on the pleasures and joys; it’s somewhat harder to see and respond to the sadness’s … as I feel you Margaret over the loss of your cat … and Otto over the loss of his dog; Otto. It can be a little more complex dealing with anger and the worst of all for me is facing the terror.
Collectively we all make the blog … and blogging, from my expereience isn’t always pleasant … but then neither is life.
OK Margaret – but again and maybe this is the nub of the argument so to speak. IF I am now to go into (or try) about either the ‘failure’ of PT or MY ‘failure’ I immediately think ‘oh Jack will see red with this’ and I think why bother? I can see a little bit now where Jack is coming from he is afraid of me as an ‘influencer’ in a bad direction. He maybe sees me as he did in the past where I ended up running a pretty large company. There I was the ‘boss’ and of course even then he seemed to have the attitude that I did not ‘deserve’ that or something. Anyway and I am trying to follow his thinking here maybe he saw this blog as his kind of ‘private’ domain and here I come taking over that or wrecking that too or whatever.
I don’t want to speculate too much as I am sure I will be ‘wrong’ but the funny thing is I in my own way saw Jack as an ‘influencer’ also and IMO not that good of a one. So in a strange way we are kind of playing the same game. I had a kind of ‘pristine’ image or version of primal in my mind and saw it ‘ruined’ in many ways. To me Jack was one of those ways but again please I am just saying ‘to me’. When I went back to therapy in 2012 and the retreat there I saw others that I had a similar feeling about. This can get kind of ‘deep’ like maybe to me ANY ‘instance’ of it in ‘reality’ takes away from my ‘idealized’ version of it
Something happened to me a few weeks ago………………I went to a friends house and by chance there was a copy of the “Journal of Primal Therapy Vol 1 No 2” there.Those were usually about 100 pages I could not stop reading I read the whole thing right there. But what amazed me it brought back the intense LOVE I had for primal I used to devour all that mostly by myself living in London in the 1970’s. EVERY single article seemed brilliant to me. Like a great album or something Dr Holden kicks it off (first track) “Levels of Consciousness” and it’s like now all Janov’s inchoate understanding is becoming ‘scientific’, Janov follows up with a killer second track(!) where he ‘interprets’ Holden. Other great stuff to by others and towards the end 2 beautiful’ prose poems’ about the process of being born. Just reading it again brought it back to me the ‘love’ above all I had for it. It seemed to put within it’s 100 pages all my yearnings, dreams, understandings such as they were. It was ‘scientific’ ‘philosophical’ \’poetic’ all by turns and let’s not forget the ‘hope’ it gave me that I would be released from all of my shyness, demons, lifelong pains’ etc etc.
Why am I going on about this? Well I think it was such an ‘ideal’ world……………..COULD any ‘real’ world compete? And it connects somehow to what I was talking about a few months ago like anything ‘near’ me is worthless, how we looked to England how our OWN better my OWN world was ‘worthless’. Yesterday sitting in the coffee shop I thought it is so strange, imagining me as an infant somehow THERE in that place and that moment was/is ‘perfection’ perfection in that it was the only time when need met fulfillment or whatever…………..but so briefly and then the opposite feeling kicks in. I was madly running away from that how could that be ‘worth’ anything. I am not explaining this properly but what I am saying is or trying to my ‘idealized’ version of primal was almost certain to or had to crash in reality.And crash it did and hard I would say. My ‘funny’ stories about some of the moving companies has a point to them (and I still ‘owe’ David another one)………………it’s like there was the ‘dream’ as in the Journal of PT and now there is the ‘reality’ of trying to scratch out a living doing moving. Working in an environment of well let’s say less than perfect versions of ‘worker rights’ or whatever. I remember in the real early days coming back at the end of the day from a moving job and the driver told me if you lose a dolly the owner will take it out of your pay. And I go but ‘that’s illegal’ and the guy shrugs his shoulders like he does it because he can I suppose.
I don’t want to say it was all bad it was a kind of ‘wild west’ out here……………..all bets were off it was ‘fun’ in a way. Freedom from just about everything a kind of chaotic crazy life in many ways. But even that now looking back on it I think it was pretty ‘irresponsible’ of Janov to think people could come here mostly with no visible means of support and kind of pitch them into a cauldron of sink or swim and expect them to delve into their deepest and most vulnerable places. It hardly seems possible as I say before my defenses were UP ‘survival’ was at stake a new country, strange ways of doing things, I could not even drive when I came here within 6 months I am commandeering a huge truck around LA, maybe ‘impressive’ in one way but in another in terms of ‘therapy’ or whatever far from ideal I would say
At the PI now they have a mat at the front door where in numerous languages (including Gaelic I was glad to see “Failte”) it says “Welcome” and though that is nice I could not help thinking how much better it would have been if primal was now ‘working’ in all those different countries. Janov though he had the ‘goods’ and dragged everyone here to ‘get’ them………………I think that was one of his greatest mistakes. It also shows an ego and an arrogance that was not warranted. Even at the time in the 1970’s I did NOT want to come to the US, I ‘waited’ and waited for primal to come to England and maybe eventually Ireland……………….but it after they telling me it would then changed again and told me it wouldn’t. As I say even at the time I felt going to the US was a ‘bad’ idea for me I really really did not want to do it or do primal there. It was one of my big ‘regrets’ at the time and actually continues to be to this day…………………………
When my Mom was dying last Summer she said to me “We (her and my Dad)should never have let you go to America” and at the time I thought that kind of ‘funny’ like she did not have the ‘power’ to stop me. I was very strong willed in those days I was going to do whatever I wanted (my attitude)………….but thinking about it now (tears) it was her way of thinking a very ‘old’ way of thinking. She was looking out for her son, she didn’t want me to have a more difficult like than I needed to have.
A few years ago I was talking to her and I was saying ‘I want you to know since I have come out here I have worked very hard, I have always done my best, it has not been easy but I want you to know etc etc’ and she said ‘yes it has been the hard road you choose and if I may say so also the foolish one’. That knocked me back a bit at the time but again I see now her ‘old’ ways.Her people were ‘primitive’ parents kind of ‘owned’ their children in a way but also in a way of looking out for them, guiding them from their own instincts and experience. I in my ‘ego and arrogance’ (to use my words about Janov) at the time though she knew ‘nothing’ she was just ‘stupid’ etc etc.Now I see things a bit different. “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”
Changing things up here a bit this news just came out from Edward Snowdon’s leaks how Israel assassinated one of the top Syrian generals back in 2008. A country they were not at war with but hey………….they do what they want. Syria is still the ‘bad’ guy of course and Assad their leader is ‘evil’ according to the demented propaganda here.We here are just more or less dupes of Israel lies.
I imagine people here do not care for me even talking about this……………but it bothers me. This ‘deal’ with Iran we are constantly told “Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism” of which no evidence is EVER produced………….yes here we HAVE proof that Israel is not just a ‘sponsor’ of terrorism it IS a terrorist state. They assassinated Iranian scientists right out in the open guys riding around in motor-cycles inside Iran just bang your’e dead.. These guys (Israelis) are worse than Columbian drug mafia types who had a similar MO.
But move on, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain…………….la la la everything is fine with the world……………….
There is no doubt that the Asaad regime is as demented as they come. Israel, should be tried in the Hague. Israel and Britain are known to have the most heavy hitting assassination squad in existence, The anointed can operate outside the rule of law and decency with impunity.Operating like movie characters with magnetic pipe bombs, etc. But like World Wrestling it shall unfold according to the script. President Obama did not give special voice to Netanyahu. I am so often absorbed by these kinds of realities, that go without a spirit of resolution A friend sent me a link, the 9 Nanas, nine mothers, wives, of various races and colors, from Western Tennessee who for the past 30 years have met every day at 4 AM to plot being a positive force in the lives of folks who needed a helping hand. They paid their bills, delivered care boxes, clothing, and their signature pound cakes, each box complete with a note, ” Somebody Loves You.” And until they were only recently outed, they did this all anonymously and using their own money saved by taking on domestic home chores they had previously farmed out. I want to be them when I grow up !!!! No mention of them being the products of any therapy. If this is neurotic, I want to be that flavour.
> Patrick, thanks for your elaborate answer so far.
> something still is not really clear to me
> so do you mean that if say, if you would have stayed in Ireland and gone over for visits for therapy it might have worked out better for you?
>
> or if the whole setting of actual therapy would be available in Ireland it would work for you?
>
> or is there something in its actual practice you would want to be different, and if so, what, and how would you like it to be?
>
> and maybe a very personal one, what would you want or really neeed from your therapist, either in a practical way or at a feeling level, or basically on a deeper level too, which old need would you like most to be met?
>
> I am not trying to analize, am truely curious about this.
> M
Margaret – and I could be wrong about this but even when I was in London in the 1970’s and messing around or trying to with a so called ‘mock’ therapy outfit (which it was really) anyway Janov does one of his ‘flying visits’ promoting “The Feeling Child” he was on BBC and interviewed by one of the music papers the NME..( “New Musical Express”)And they ask him specifically about this ‘mock therapy’ outfit and he does says they are very ‘dangerous’. I have talked about this here before but it was a big moment for me in that it FELT so wrong. People who were ‘inspired’ by him and modeled their whole thing on his writings and his works……………..NO ‘reach out’ of any kind. Quite the opposite just condemn them and cast them to the outer darkness.
That FELT very wrong even if even at that point kind of agreed with him. But it rubbed me very wrong and like I said before sometimes just your gut feeling tells you something even if in your mind you are telling yourself something else. It ‘told’ me that he was ‘exclusivist’ that ONLY he had the ‘answer’ that he was not interested in a broader ‘movement’ that he did not care for the people there (like me) trapped with the in-ability to pay out $6600.00 I am guessing about $25,000 in today money, he cared only about money maybe and the people who had it. All unverbalized impressions……………..that I feel later all turned out the be true. Just about every one of those has hobbled the primal ‘movement’ and to this day these kinds of problems cling to it IMHO.
OK Margaret I am not really answering your questions but I will approach it in a while. I have to go off for the day and also I don’t want to be ‘dominating’ this blog………………..as after all I am mostly just a ‘problem child’ or a ‘trouble child’
Warning:- For those bored, disturbed, irritated or distraught by my alledged lecturing … delete this comment immediately. For the unintiated I feel there COULD be some use in this, my comment; which is in reality a counter response to Patrick.
At the risk of coming across as lecturing (some make a handsome living out of it, though it never paid me much of any money). As I read “The Primal Scream” there was a whole NEW WAY, discovered of dealing with ourselves. The psychological profession up to that point had dealt with it’s patients through thinking and reasonings in the hope of enlightening. All that was blown away right at the moment of Danny Wilson’s scream. Janov, as he stated, hadn’t a clue what had taken place. I can only assume that he too was disturbed by what had taken place … but Danny came out of it … and stated:- “I’ve done it … I don’t know what …. but I can feel”. From that point on as I read him, he Janov, played the tape over and over again until some sence of it came to him. Seemingly, he was determined to find out what it all meant.
Therein to me, was Janov’s integrity and later his genius when he figured it out, after trying the same technique he tried with Danny, with other patients. His recounting of all this intrigued thousands … by his book becoming a best seller. In a word FEELINGS (and their expression) … not reasoning, logic or pure thinking.
Alas, as I saw thereafter; what was taking place, was that professional psychologist and psychiatrist did with it; RAN right into their heads; believing their studies gave them a better understanding than the ‘run of the mill’ readers. It was at that point as I read Janov that he realized a potential danger from the thinking and reasonings of those other professionals.
It needed, as I felt Janov saw it, that until and unless one had had a “re-living” of ones OWN past and unconscious feelings (subconciaous, my prefered word), then there was a tendency to see it all through thinking, reasoning and logic. Therein to me, is the rub.
Not a reply really but something that came to me. In the late 60’s early 70’s we,”Heads,” cool long haired guys and hippy chicks, we constantly accused the, “Establishment,” of being in their heads, not feeling, not being based in reality; our black friends preferred the phrase, ” living a face.” Of course so were we.
Not only does unresolved pain effect how we see our lives, the world, our being, every molecule of us has been altered hasn’t it ??
David – doesn’t this kind of show that the whole thing about the importance of feelings and not being in one’s head was a broad cultural thing at the time. My take partly on this at least is that Janov ‘hijacked’ that moment or tried and ‘patented’ it or tried to. So in some ways far from being a ‘progressive’ force he ‘bottled’ it and tried to sell it back to us. In the broad sense his influence is close to nil and in his attempt to ‘own’ and ‘control’ feelings he has set things back as much as brought them forward. In that way I see him like the Oppenheimers who own and control the De Beers diamond empire. There is a ‘greed’ there in the center of it that has not served it well.
I wonder a bit about the Danny Wilson story…………..in some ways it looks like Janov trying to look as he imagines a real ‘scientist’ would. I used to consider that whole thing a bit of a ‘creation myth’ but that video of him meeting with Ortiz the artist who initially inspired him shows that all that actually happened and was based on real events. So actually I should assume the Danny Wilson story is true also
For fuck’s sake STOP using YOU perceptions and imaginations about what Janov is/was doing. You don’t know nor it seems, will you ever. All anyone can do is read the book/s and operate from there. It initially impressed you, me and thousands of others. Leave it that. All else seem like you bitching cos you didn’t get whatever it was that you expected. Many did. Quote:- “The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars … but in ourselves that we are underlings”.
We don’t judge William Shakespeare for what he did in his private life, but soley on his works. Janov deserves the same consideration. Your theories, perceptions, idea and conjectures are meaningless to the rest of us, I gather.
I am judging him ONLY on his ‘works’ and they come up pretty ‘short’ IMO. I am going very much by ‘results’ and again same thing. So for fuck’s sake STOP telling me to STOP……………..see 2 can play that game.It’s pretty idiotic and though you may think it has a kind of spontaneous ring about it it falls pretty short IMO again…………….blog alert another tedious round and who started it……………I say Jack he probably says me. Jack to me you personify how ’empty’ it is 82 y.o. and well I better say no more………………
“Sharanda Jones — prisoner 33177-077 — struggled to describe the moment in 1999 when a federal judge sentenced her to life in prison after her conviction on a single cocaine offense. She was a first-time, nonviolent offender.” Jones was not innocent. She committed a crime. But she’s done 16 years in prison, and she’s got a lifetime to go. You should read this piece by WaPo’s Sari Horowitz: From a first arrest to a life sentence.
Ol’ Dubya never saw hard time for frequent recreational use of the same substance.
I had hoped that a spin off of our neurosis resolution would be also a resolution of the Charles Dickens Wild West. A stable full of Ted Cruze’s isn’t terribly heartening. What do y’all think about that. Our place in the larger world. A friend of Gretchen’s told me years back that , ” …. Gretchen volunteers at a palliative care hospice.” That would indicate that involvement and caring for the broad human condition is not at cross purposes to being a bona fide primaler.. Sorry, I don’t know how to voice that without sounding sarcastic, so I’ll own that. I know that escalated Ms. Castle even higher in my esteem for her.
I would like to repost, because I think it is very fitting, that when I told Barry, Dr. Bernfield, that a former patient who was still involved with a PI supported group was naysaying, totally trashing Primal Therapy, the PI and some therapists, that he told me to save my money and go home, Barry’s reply was only that he had great respect for that man because he had the courage to speak his mind. It brought up all kinds of feelings in me, which I didn’t even recognize as what I needed therapy to do. I was waiting to get in the magical room where Barry would chant the magic words,my entire sick life would be up on Big Screen, as I had witnessed with primaling psychotic patients, and I would be gradually reborn. The fact that in that sentence, he had brought up my fear of rejection, of being convicted of being a liar, of getting thrown out, of never being good enough, all important scenes; that all went over my head. I was going to experience Primal as a therapist not a patient. Just realized that last one; rather elitist of me, eh, aligning with power. Pretty messed up.
David – I wonder why I can or could never get that ‘love’ from Barry. I was/am doing much the same lol………………………..I saw him last Sunday and he along with everyone else still seemed quite ‘un-impressed’ by me……….Damn it!! LOL
I think I made this observation while a patient, but certainly after back in the real world. Barry is extremely vigilant not to show any response that would hint to a patient how he would have him feel about anything. I have seen in men’s group and mixed group him ask a logical question, “Why,” about an issue raised and watch patients go nuts as they attached their individual interpretations to the significance of him asking, ” Why.” From that envisioning, concocting, how he felt about the issue, writing the script so it were. A much more efficacious approach than asking it as, ” What do each of you think about that ?” Soliciting nice sterile answers.
I would wager that he holds to that best therapy practice with any potential patient. I have confidence in his integrity. I don’t know the situation of you meeting each other. If it is as suggested on the blog that you crashed a group, then there is a contract between paying patients and the PI.
It’s tougher being dead honest with people I like, and for the record I quite like you and understand a bit. Actually it’s just that I want to keep you telling the wonderful driver experiences.
David – let’s keep this in perspective. I didn’t ‘crash’ anything including my car thank God. I mentioned the word or idea of ‘gate crashing’ as it reminded me of my mis-spent youth in hippydom and squatland so let’s not let any ‘urban legends’ be given legs. But please not let’s us get into “If it is as suggested on the blog that you crashed a group, then there is a contract between paying patients and the PI”…………….I would not expect you of all people to get ‘legalistic’ about it.
Doon get yer water all hot.. lol I was trying to cover all possibilities; you left the story full of holes, and thus open to all sorts of interpretations as to how you came upon the group of Primalers on a field trip. Now, you’re alluding to not crashing your car, so was the encounter at a cross walk ??? lol
David,
you asked about my reaction yesterday. I was express something spontaneously, though there is some reality there regarding the blog. This seems to be corroborated by several others on here. I would like the blog to be similar to group where people are being vulnerable and open up. The types of discussions that go on here do not occur in group. It seemed that in the past more people were vulnerable talking about their feelings in a direct way which I could connect with. Now, it seems there is more cognitive discussion. I think some of the intellectual topics explored on here would be more suitable for college classes or some internet forums established for that kind of thing.
Jack suggested above that people be more specific in who or what they are reacting to, and this would enhance the blog. Apart from the obvious contradiction that Jack himself was unspecific in that particular post (he could have named somebody and something they said, thus following his own suggestion) I do not feel there is as much to react to on here in the way we do in primal.
Of course there are exceptions: Larry and Margaret consistently talk about their life and feelings, Leslie and Jo’s posts about the retreat made me feel something. As did Otto talking about the loss of his dog, and Patrick talking about what his mother said. This is what we do at the Institute and in buddying: I would like to see more of that here.
It is more limited that group, of course: no real time and not in person. However, people still get feelings out of it when we approach it like group.
I was a patient at PI 86/87. I had a buddy for several years . Feeling solo since. Beyond post group was interacting in the hallway. Both were were productive.The hallway mingling gave some idea of who we were in the real world. Do you not see any value in the blog including social discourse some discussion and maybe even involvement as a group in the real world that would add another dimension to our, ” primal community.”
In post group there is the impartial moderator in terms of therapists, to offer support, or to direct feelings at appropriate times. I have seen some pretty heated inter patient exchanges in post group that required a skillful nudge to help both patients. That would be lackng on the blog. I do not see to my satisfaction any patient being so appointed.
My hackles were raised by you telling me the right way to do it, like I don t know what Primal is about and was in need of tutoring. I reacted to Margaret early on for merely telling me I was welcome. Like you, concerning me, I likewise have no idea except by comments where anyone else is at with their therapy, if there is any game playing residual behaviour. I have known people who intellectualized that they wre enormously advanced in their therapy and that they were the truth and the light. I am very selective in who I place confidence.
People can,” talk,” on, or ” cry,” on ad nauseum about a scene. But the hall mark of being stuck is languishing in the same scene, not feeling it or using it as a defense against feeling.To me that suggests the scene either has not been felt , or it is not the pivotal issue, that there is something else. How would that be handled? Are people to be left with their defenses?
I do that in the real world when I know the person/patient has no likely alternatives. It would be cruel and inhuman to attack life stabilizing defenses.
David,At the retreat we all received tee shirts with “therapist” on the front.I’m not sure why and I don’t know if anyone asked. But in a certain sensewe are maybe all therapists. I received useful comments in group at the retreat and was listened to. Also from my buddy and everyone else I talked to there.Not necessarily relevant to what you said but I thought mention it anyway.At home the past week I’m feeling the lack of all of that support. Phil Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:03:07 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Jack,
I appreciated you responding to what I wrote. Though I was just stating an objective fact and have no personal axe to grind with you, I did feel some concern about embedding it in a response to David and not addressing you directly.
Donal
Donal: I took your remark in the spirit that you say you offered it, and I did not think you were getting at me. As you said, having no “axe to grind”. One of the great features I find with the blog, is seeing how others see me. I personally find that helpful.
Also, It did not bother me that you embedded it within a comment to David.
David,
No, I am not a therapist, PI or otherwise.
The only therapists I have seen posting n this blog are Barry and Gretchen, mostly Gretchen who I assume follows all posts and contributes as she feels is appropriate.
You raise a good point: therapists anchor groups and give them direction, and intervene to protect, encourage and engage people. On the blog this cannot be done in real time. However, Gretchen does all these things on the blog as much as anyone could, so it is the next best thing to a group despite the obvious disadvantages.
I am not really suggesting there is a right way to do anything, but in group and at retreats people end up on the same page, for want of a better phrase. I think the lack of stated rules, methods, or conventions in primal results in us all being safe enough to express out feelings. Really, the only guidelines in therapy are to participate and make yourself vulnerable by being honest about how you feel. Everything else unfolds in its own time.
Of late, it seems that is not occurring on here. It is much easier in groups as there is no substitute for physical presence and the lack of distractions from your feeling,
Do you ever go to LA or retreats…….perhaps not from what your wrote?
Donal
I’ve not been back to LA since 87. The likelihood of that happening is remote, much to my chagrin. Returned home to become a single parent, and never got back. My PI buddy married and Primal became secondary. I quite understand the process. It was that protecting, encouraging and engaging to which I was alluding. Sometimes connecting the person to the the ,” real,” source of a feeling when they are off track, or when they might be stuck.
you talked about life-stabalizing defenses. That is something I learned the importance of back a few years ago. I used to think defenses were something to eliminate as quickly as possible so all the feeling could come up. Of course, the defenses gradually disappear as they are no longer needed. As Barry the therapist has said to me several times, your body will use defenses to the exact amount to defend against the pain that remains (I am paraphrasing Barry here, but I think I got hid point across here).
Of course you can stop using certain defenses you are conscious of to set the stage for feeling, or to get deeper into current feelings, But even if it was possible to eliminate all at once, which it is not (your mind would not allow it, and many are unconscious anyway), a person would just be a dysfunctional mess and not be able to feel/integrate.
Donal.
What I meant is that it is unkind to dismantle the defenses of a person who has nothing else. Like, I’m pissed off again by you talking down to me as if you think you are my superior, have some higher knowledge and I’m in need of you educating me about Primal. I find your albeit civil tone arrogant and haughty..How would you know where I’m at ? And I don’t know you. If I unload on you for being arrogant will you be harmed. Is that just your manner of speaking or do you think you are superior. ? Is English a second language ?? So I am being careful.
Just for reference how long have you been Primaling ??
I am cognizant , too, of, Why, I would decide to let myself be affected by a stranger who means nothing to me.
Defenses come in strange forms. Sometimes the feeling is the defense.
Barry has a myriad of fabulous sayings. One I often use is, ” If you get on the wrong train, every stop is the wrong stop.” I once asked him if he was the author of christ’s handbook of better parables. He made some joke about his Jewish ethnicity making that an unlikely fit.
Hi David. I don’t know you, but have a comment — I can work out how you would feel “talked-down-to” from Donal’s comment, but since I have known him from past retreats, I know it as just his style of speech, and I don’t think he means any condescension.
Feeling bad. Watching youtube’s of Grateful Dead. Kind of depressing to see their later shows, how old they had gotten. I am old and this is horribly depressing. With Otto’s death, I have fallen into a funk from which I will never crawl out of. This is my finish. My grandmother once said to me, it is horrible to get old. It is her birthday today, but she died long ago, and she was not a person you could get close to. I am pretty much tired of every thing that exists. Going to the birthday tomorrow of my younger kid’s 1 year-old. No fun there. 2nd said we were dead to him last Christmas, and just got back in contact last month. However, his wife has blackballed my first son from coming for reasons better left unsaid. So the whole thing is shit to me. I feel like white trash around his wife’s family, who have seen the baby every day for a year, we have seen him just a few times.I have no more expectations from life, except that most likely it will get worse and worse. Can’t even cry this week. Work gets more and more boring, but since I have to focus intently at work, I have not thought much about Otto this week. Which is probably a bad thing. Well anyway China Cat Sunflower/I know you rider is a little uplifting, even when they were old, they played this well. Playing in the band, also uplifting, one of my favorites. Cant cry now, too late.
Black cat howling and wanting to be petted or to go out into the black night. Other dog/cats sacked out because that’s all they got going on right now. When I saw the post about how tee shirts with THERAPIST were given out at the retreat, it triggered my worst fear. Anyway, I really know so little about PT. I was in group once and someone said something about their breakfast or coffee, and I asked them about it, and they burst into tears. Another time, I was in group. I was near a feeling and it look like the therapist was moving on to someone else, and a patient who was always kind to me, he said to me, looks like you are still in the feeling or you look sad or something like that, and that brought out my tears. Other times, I hear patients in group saying, well, I don’t want to play therapist (or some shit like that), which always made my blood boil and made me reluctant to open my mouth when I had something to say to another patient (related to how sad they looked or whatever). Anyway, my worst fear is, that when I can finally afford to go back to group, the PI will have shuttered its doors, and the Primal Community will be all that is left, and my success with being in the Primal Community remains dismal from start to finish. Ok this GD video is just way out, this is the worst jam I ever heard. Damn.
I read somewhere to day that the original Schism or split in the Catholic Church between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox had to do with a dispute about ‘original sin’. The Easterners disagreed that we were born ‘sinners’ that by virtue of just being human we were automatically ‘sinners’ which was Rome’s view.
I found that very interesting like that’s a big point and a big difference. And I thought how deep that is in me or was in Ireland growing up. I noticed with with all my younger siblings after my Mom ‘had’ them in the Hospital and she usually stayed if I remember correctly about 2 weeks in the Hospital well on the way home with the new baby it was very important and more than that really it HAD to be done. What had to be done was to stop at our local Church and have the baby baptized. And there was something very beautiful and sacred about it the baby would be taken out of the car and brought into the Church and the ‘holy water’ of Baptism would be sort of poured on it’s forehead.
But of course the ‘message’ also was the baby was ‘unclean’ or like a little ‘savage’ whose soul if left to itself was on it’s way to perdition. I have kind of figured out from talking to my Mom as she was dying last Summer that maybe one reason she stayed up to 2 weeks in the Hospital is she it seems did breastfeed us for that time but not when we went home. She said to me once she got home the ‘feeding’ became a problem. I noticed she didn’t say ‘breast feeding’ and that it typical the puritanism was so severe. Even as she was dying my Mom though I felt being very honest and brave about everything could not say ‘breast feeding’. And it’s such a tragedy and it was the same situation when we got home…………….what I picked up from my Mom is breast feeding in the house was ‘taboo’ she could not be seen doing that by well whomever was there my aunt, my grandmother and I am pretty sure my Dad.
LIke they bring the baby into the world by having sex and now it’s here to see her breast feeding was considered ‘taboo’ and not to be allowed. That’s what I mean by my Mom’s instincts were always there and given her head and freedom would have breast fed us. I am pretty sure now that was the purpose of the fairly long Hospital stay. Like I said before I felt ‘loved’ by her like a young sheep or calf but once we went home I had to take my chances almost with the other children AND the calves etc. A pretty ‘quick’ course in infant hood! Now get on with living and taking care of yourself almost.
There is another aspect of this………………..there was this phrase growing up ‘living in sin’ was the phrase. It referred to two people living together (having sex!) without being married. To me it had a very alluring though also taboo sense about it. But it just stuck me today the ‘living in sin’ would have started already IF the baby had not been baptized and IF the breast feeding had continued. Again it all seems such a tragedy and waste really the VERY things that made living worth while were ‘taboo’ and all the things that made life difficult and painful were the ‘values’ we had or were told to have. I now realize all of this rubbed my Mom the wrong way too she felt herself a prisoner in a situation she did not understand or ‘agree’ with but just like us she had to just ‘get on with the program’ In England especially to this day they use the phrase a lot ‘oh just get on with it’ I noticed in Ireland they have what to me is a nicer one kind of meaning the same thing they say ‘work away’. But the ‘work away’ I like it has a very soft and accepting feeling to it. LIke I was in a shop and I am kind of thumbing threw different newspapers trying to decide which one to get and I say ‘excuse me I am just trying to decide here’ and the shop lady says ‘ah work away’. Many times during the Summer I heard that and it seemed really nice. Better that ‘get on with it’………………
Glad to see you here again for a while at least Donal. I have been silently ‘working away’ on my Irish primal mafia idea but I am BADLY out-numbered………………….but we are the little nation that could…………….well we were now we are just another euro-victim. Greeks to day us later……………..
For me, I saw a depth of thought, emanating out of this comment of yours. Much of which I agreed with (for what that is worth). But I would like to carry the discussion further, in as breif a manner as I can for the moment, Cos it’s bringing up a feeling
The creation of Judasim was born out of babylon, no doubt from what we in the west deem, Arab stock. It was thought through by a profets. Not a Messiah, they are still waiting for her … him … or whomever. As I was taught in my classes of Religious instruction, the first gospel of the new testament was written 40 years after the assumed death of a Messiah. The other gospels were based mainly on the first gospel, Mark, and quite some years after him. The other monotheistic religion emunated with another profet … Mohamed. Christianity is the only religion that was supposedly created by … one conceived (in other words fucked) by some holy spirit.
A Messiah. Presumably a holy messanger.
Just as in your comment the baby until baptized is unclean, (and even afterwards not totally cleansed … and that sex, until sanctified in a church ritual is nasty, dirty, aweful and sinful. To abandon breast feeding … for which I presume is the real fuction of ‘tits’ (as oppsed to brests wihch both men and other animals have) … was not meant to be looked upon by children and relatives … maybe not even the father
The feeling running around me right now is “fucking crazy” and “deprivation of a natural instinct”, from a woman having carried a baby inside here body for nine months.
How must the baby have reacted to that deprevation ???????????????.
There really is something wrong with us humans (and we have the conciet to believe we are an intelligent creature) Yezus kristopholus. It pisses me off.
There is so much insanity around sex and birthing. The C Section; doc playing golf at 2 birth surgeries completed by 12. I remember when it was so rare, and, how we felt really bad for mom and babe; when we pondered what effect that it had on the baby, being deprived of the natural experience Now medical science has determined that a myriad of infant/child problems, including natural immunities is irrefutably caused by CSection; i.e.: the baby does not come into contact with Moms historical bacterial genome. Hearing that news conference, ” Wow,” I naively think, tearing up, ” finally they are going to abandon this factory farming process, and return to natural birthing.” Leboyér so clearly showed that beautiful process. But no, the C Sections will become the standard, and they will swab mom’s vaginal canal and inoculate the baby artificially.
A scourge on humanity. Taking a natural, beautiful process and turning it into a medical nightmare, and an eternal destructive imprint.
David: Your opening sentence intimated that we all felt that way … but I gather that the surgeon going off to his round of golf, after the c section, wasn’t feeling that way. Had you finished it off with your last line in this comment that would have made it clear to me “how YOU felt”.
Not meant to be ‘a put down’, but for me, it is an example how we each of us often are not totally direct. And I include myself. What I find real useful from others, is how they are able to hold the mirror up to me. That is an essential part of my ongoing therapy.
Thinking a bit more about having 2 weeks with my Mom and only my Mom (tears)…………….it’s like it was understood as a kind of ‘sacred’ time. It was a Hospital it’s true so it was a medical facility but in those days the influence of the Church was strong(er)…………..2 weeks it seems it was of breast feeding and my Mom not hassled to distraction by farm chores other kids and so on. It was probably a ‘magic time’ for me and almost the last one I had. It only came back to a degree when I was ‘farmed out’ or ‘given away’ to my Mom’s people from about 2 to 3.5 years old. I still ‘remember’ those days a bit and how loved and special I felt. I was like a little “King” to them the only child there they could not do enough for me.Then played with me listened to me fed me took me on rides in the pony and trap…………..even now talking about it if felt like Heaven
My Mom told me when I came back home they were all a bit amazed at how ‘advanced’ I was with my words in both languages and even my ‘maths’. They (my Mom’s people) had a beautiful colored ‘ball frame’ where you could move this little colored balls along a wire and ‘count’ and ‘subtract’ etc. Anyway my Mom told me I was ‘ahead’ of my brother who was 14 months older than me.
Sometimes I wonder where I got my ‘strength’ such as it is and it feels like those two things at least in my mind/feeling now. Also I think it created a lot of ‘confusion’ for me I was exposed to two very different worlds the magical primitive world of my Mom’s people and the harsh intellectualized pragmatic world of my Dad. But growing up I ‘sided’ with my Dad and his way of thinking………………….. now I start to see the another side
finally crying again. but z and the kid are here, and i cry loud, and it dont want them to hear me. Sophie dog chewing on a bone reminded me of giving Otto a bone in the last few months. he tried to chew on it a little, and then he would push himself over into a crouching position and go to sleep next to me. He did that many many times in his last few months, and I miss it. Bad day for me at other kid’s first birthday party. I hate being around people, and his dumb family especially.
Lay Down Sally (Live from Crossroads 2010)
Honky Tonk Woman Sheryl Crow with The Rolling Stones
Steve Winwood, Eric Clapton – Can’t Find My Way Home
Eric Clapton, Steve Winwood – Presence of the Lord
TRAFFIC – THE LOW SPARK OF HIGH-HEELED BOYS – The Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys (1971) HiDef
************keeping me sane tonight***********
but these are the ones i listened to during my infrequent rides to big group after starting at the PI in 1985. Blind Faith Sea of Joy BeachBoys fun fun fun. hmmm, still aiming for that and still missing. fun and joy.
Patrick mentioned last Sunday “interacting with some of the ‘retreaters’. Did I slip over the line probably in their eyes yes in my own not really or if I did it’s all good…………….” and added, “I better not say so much but it involved a bit of what we used to call ‘gate crashing’ by me.Nothing intentional but one thing kind of led to another but in my opinion as I say I felt ‘it’s all good'”. And later, “I dunno just the use of the word ‘gate crashing’ appeals to me. Reminds me of the hippy and squatting days when usually the way to any ‘party’ was to gate crash it. …It just has a good kind of anarchic feeling to it.” “Gretchen was cool one of the few – others who kind of anoint themselves in her place not so much in my humble opinion……………”
I felt Patrick is almost painting himself as a swashbuckling rebel, minimizing what really happened — rather than appearing to be out-of-control or “stalkerish”. I was at first reluctant to post this, because I felt so hurt about it, but now feel I should say what happened, and how I felt.
Patrick was at the Institute before Gretchen’s group, and one person had seen him “slinking along a wall” outside, meaning he was stooping to avoid being seen, and hiding somewhat behind a bush or hedge. Several people said it felt like stalking since he was hiding behind a fence. Gretchen said he definitely was hiding behind a wall, and did not want to be seen. But someone pointed him out, and then he asked Gretchen if he could come to group, and she told him no, that the person he wanted to see was not there at all. He left, but later came back and tried to get in, asking for someone else. There were others who were not comfortable with him there, so the person who answered the door simply followed the group’s decision, and would not let him in. No one “anointed themselves in Gretchen’s place”, as Patrick wants to believe.
I arrived at group about an hour late, knowing nothing of all this, and I did not see him, but I wasn’t looking. Gretchen answered the door, as she was expecting perhaps Patrick again. He is not currently in therapy.
Once inside, I heard all the news, and Gretchen’s take on it. After 3-1/2 hours I had to leave. When I was going down the steps, I saw Patrick sitting about 20 ft. away. He said “hi”, and I immediately turned around to go back & let Gretchen know he had come back. Patrick started telling me not to “go telling and tattling to them”, “making out that I’m dangerous”. I said nothing. Gretchen came to the door with someone behind her, and told me to come back in, but I had to go, and I told her I just wanted her to know about him being there.
She shut the door & I left, but Patrick escalated his verbal abuse, yelling at me all the way almost to my car just around the corner. He snidely said “Go running to Primal Therapy to ‘cry’ about it”, “All of you are going to Primal Therapy all the time,” in several versions. I didn’t look at him or say anything at all. He called me names repeatedly (“Fat bitch!”) and said cruel things, clearly intending to hurt me, and trying to get me to respond, which I did not do. He yelled at me “You’re falling apart, you’re going to die in 5 years,” and “Why don’t you walk instead of waddle”. He seemed to whip out some of the kinds of insults he’s made at me in the past on the blog, like a schoolyard bully. I never said a thing, but I was kind of looking backward to make sure he wasn’t too close to me to grab or hit me. The last thing he said was, “I don’t want to talk to you, I want to talk to (so-and-so), and other people.”
Later I heard that several people thought they should have called 911 about him, but someone else felt it wouldn’t have done any good. After another 1-1/2 hrs. of group, as people dispersed, someone was escorted away, others hurried away, avoiding him. One guy responded “hi” but would not shake Patrick’s hand, telling him “No, because you’re acting kind of crazy right now”. However, (so-and-so) and a few others were talking to Patrick.
Barry came near the end and was with Gretchen when she left later, which was good, as we were worried.
I was a bit in shock driving home, but at home afterwards, my misery came out, and I connected to a couple of bullying scenes from my childhood. One of my brothers was mean to me, often lying to get me in trouble for things he did, and laughing afterwards when our parents punished me. And once in kindergarten some boys cruelly taunted me that I had done something wrong, and they were going to get me in trouble for it, and when my begging and pleading didn’t help, and I was sobbing, they laughed, and I knew they were lying, and enjoying hurting me. I felt terrible. They were able to do that to me, because of an earlier event, in which my parents terrorized me, threatening my life for something that made no sense to me.
The hurt about my struggles with my weight was the most obvious — I have long been a target for that. I struggle with it every day, with cravings and fears if I don’t eat to push down the tension I feel, that threatens to take over. Inchoate pains. I am ashamed every time I backslide from my resolve, and eat something not good for me, it’s happened times beyond count, and often leaves me in despair of ever succeeding. Still I have to keep trying, to save my life.
But I kept thinking in the back of my mind, “why did Patrick treat me that way?”, as if puzzled, and in talking about it with Gretchen today, I asked her, “He gets something from it?” and she said, “Yes”, and was sympathetic to my feeling victimized and bullied. That was good for me to hear, to try to take it in. It’s like I don’t “get it’, for some reason. I have to think I must have been bullied so much or so young, I lost something of recognizing it. I’m still a child, in some ways. I am doing my best to try and solve this problem, and that is all that keeps me going some days. Meanwhile, as long as I don’t solve my problem, it will continue to hurt me, as I am vulnerable to anyone who wants to hurt me.
Knowing that Patrick was waiting out there for hours for someone felt to me like some intense issues were roiling inside of him, which he hinted at in his first paragraph but didn’t want to explain. The scary thing about Patrick is he often seems not be aware of pent up stuff going on in him and has amply demonstrated he doesn’t handle his pent up stuff well. No one wants to be the object of it, so he’s avoided.
Knowing the kinds of exchanges that have happened between you and Patrick in the past, Vicki, I was afraid for you when you left the building alone, with him still out there, still waiting hours on end for who knew what. I thought you were brave to leave the building alone knowing he was sure to pounce, sure to force his agenda on you, sure to hurt you.
Whatever was going on with you, Patrick, you hurt her and I don’t like that you did. It was predictable that you would. Your issues that you don’t want to talk about blind you to how you hurt people, and you are dismissive of it. You seem unable to not hurt people.
Vicki,I feel sad that you were bullied by Patrick this way, and also outraged. I’mglad you were able to courageously write about it here and tell us how it ties in with yourhistory. I’m really sorry you had to go through this.Phil Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 06:46:22 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
First off Vicki I think it is legitimate you bring this up. I was sort of hoping you wouldn’t as it is ’embarrassing’ but I want to say that at least
I am not going to pretend this is easy for me. There is more than one issue like starting with ‘why’ was I there, what was I trying to achieve etc etc……………I would rather leave that alone for the moment at least. It’s pretty involved and pretty ‘complicated’ and I could ‘explain’ it all and maybe later I will but it does not feel right to do it now at least. Also there is issues about the privacy of other people another big reason I don’t feel able to or think it right to address it now at least.
To try to keep it to you……………..I decided to come back and wait until group was over as on reflection I thought there are several people there who I would like to meet. Even another Irish person that I had not known about but that Gretchen introduced me to before the group. So really it WAS at that point at least as simple as that, now I do realize thinking about it now you could not know that or whatever was in my mind. But it was……………..so I am sitting outside on a chair that just happens to be nearby and you come out of the group by yourself. I FEEL friendly towards you I say “hey Vicki how are you doing?”. You immediately ‘turn on your heel’ as we used to say growing up as a way to say someone not only ‘ignores’ you but makes a kind of public point of doing so. Then I figure out the ‘reason’ you have done that is to go back into the PI to ‘warn’ them that I am out there (my thinking or interpretation of what I see)
This pisses me off quite strongly…………..you make a point of ‘ignoring’ and having no response at all to a friendly greeting as it was and as it was meant but act as I saw it like some ‘cop’ or ‘security guard’. That’s the first thing I say to you as you are climbing back up the steps to the PI. You continue in your ‘cop’ persona Gretchen opens the door and I say things like ‘Gretchen this is so ridiculous, I have a perfect right to be here and I am actually waiting for x and y. (no names privacy but I did tell G.) I almost got the feeling G. thought it was ‘funny’ though I could well be wrong about that. But she seemed to be smiling/laughing at least as I could see and I felt she also thought it was a bit absurd and I mean specifically you playing ‘security guard’.
Anyway maybe I am wrong about that it’s not so important I don’t think but maybe to just explain how my mind was working (or not lol) at that moment I took it as a kind of ‘support’ and kind of ‘unload’ on you. I am very pissed at you your very unfriendly demenour your impersonation of a ‘cop’ and I see you in front of my eyes ‘waddling’ along as best you can I would not call it ‘walking’ though technically it is at least it was getting you to your car. I feel so pissed and yes I have to admit I did call you a ‘fat bitch’ and I think twice or maybe 3 times. Your obvious illl-health combined with all this ‘therapy’ well I just see red. i am mad at what I perceive is the ‘hypocrisy’ of the PI the hypocrisy of the people in it. In one moment in my mind at least it all comes together THIS is what I have be complaining about and trying to ‘explain’ on the blog for so long. And I am pissed not only at you at the PI also who leave situations like this drift on year after year and though I would not say they are in it for the money – they do take your money
It’s a bit ironic but when I ‘considered’ coming back to the PI in 2012 you were the first person I actually met and I don’t need to repeat but I have written about my reaction before when I met you and how shocked I was by your seeming extreme physical enfeeblement. No need to repeat all that but in my kind of ‘raging’ I think here we are over 3 years later and nothing is being done at least the way I see it to ‘help’ you or rectify whatever has and is going wrong. Just show up for ‘retreat’ and ‘sessions’ and ‘groups’ and it’s like is anyone looking or listening or seeing. It feels like a gigantic put up job a conspiracy of silence or take no notice of the man behind the curtain.
OK I don’t want to make this too long and I should probably try to stick to the point. But Vicki I want to mention one other ‘interaction’ you and I had. Not a big deal but it for some reason very much stuck in my mind. After the 2103 retreat the Monday after I was around at your house to visit someone staying with you. I go in you are in the kitchen and I say to go hi Vicki much like last Sunday and you ‘vanish’ out of there so fast you see me coming and boom you are gone. And I’m thinking this is the day after the retreat and that’s how ‘real’ all this shit is. Sit around, talk about ‘growth’ and ‘connection’ and ‘health’ and ‘over coming patterns’ etc etc etc………….but how ‘real’ is any of this like in the actual world it means it seems nothing.
Funnily enough I had a similar experience with Jo. This was after the 2012 retreat and Jo was my ‘buddy’ even………..anyway again the Monday after the retreat I am sitting at Whole Foods with a friend here comes Jo out of the store. I start to introduce my friend to Jo and vica versa and boom she’s gone. She did nothing ‘wrong’ but I’m thinking she could at least have sat down for a minute. After all she was my ‘buddy’ and here I want to introduce her and vica versa to a friend of mine. Not interested, like the ‘unreality’ of the retreat is over now………….back to the everyday world where it means next to nothing (This is kind of what I mean when I say the ‘average’ Irish person has more ‘feeling’ that all these professional ‘feelers’ (primallers)
I am aware all of this could be turned around on me…………maybe I am just ‘radio-active’ with/to primallers…………….and in many ways I am. I don’t like what I see as the ‘un-reality’ of most of formal therapy and I suppose that comes across and they don’t like me either. I can’t say I ‘blame’ them but for myself it does not overly bother me. Even last Sunday I have told people it felt almost like an ‘exorcism’ away from formal therapy……………….though I am still hooked on the blog
I feel I am missing something………….an apology I suppose. You have my apology in that there was a lot of pent up stuff going on for me and you did not deserve the be the object of all that. So I am sorry about that. At the same time I have just tried to explain what is/was going on with me. You can be the judge of how ;legitimate’ all that is.
Patrick, I’m not sure if you want a response, but I have something I want to say. You did only say “Hi” on Sunday (not more than that), and I did feel it was friendly — but I am no longer friendly toward you, and I cannot trust you. I liked you when I first met you as you returned to therapy. But then in groups, and at the retreat you attended, you repeatedly insulted me nastily, it was not simply “expressing feelings”, and you actually expressed repeatedly that you really want me to say nothing at all to you. So I have not felt friendly to you since then, and I do not simply forget when someone is mean and horrible to me. I was not at all comfortable with you coming into my house, to visit someone staying with me, but I had not known about it ahead of time, or I would have prevented it. Already I felt you had been intolerably cruel to me, and I had decided I should have nothing to do with you.
And I don’t believe you care at all about my health, but rather that you have a grudge about something else (the P.I., P.T., your own therapy, and/or your parents), and will simply grab and use any and all objects within reach, to bolster and vent your own anger.
“I was not at all comfortable with you coming into my house, to visit someone staying with me, but I had not known about it ahead of time, or I would have prevented it”
This is exactly the kind of mind set I have a very hard time with. what is so special about your ‘house’ you act like it is the White House or something. You might need Secret Service at the rate you are going. Ridiculous “American” nonsense
> David, Donal’s reply did not come across as talking down to you either.
> and my own ‘welcome’ was only meant, well, to make you feel welcome.
> there used to be a time that all the bloggers would have welcomed any newcomer, a lot of arrogance there then.
>
> too bad you are so defensive, it risks alienating people, speaking for myself it does a bit, feel like having to protect myself..
> even writing this feels risky, but well, hablando se entiende la gente is one spanish saying I like very much.
> meaning talking people understand each other/get along, kind of a double meaning in spanish.
> sorry if you knew this, other people might not, and well, not translating it might be considered arrogant too, see, this is how all the critic affects me already.
>
> i have grown so tired of all those long toes in my life, and the walking on eggshells I try to stay clear of it as much as possible in general.
> M
> I totally agree with Jo
>
> but also without having been bullied as a child, this would be a very unpleasant experience, to say the least.
> i just reread your comment Vicky, and feel well, maybe indignified comes closest.
> angry, incredulous, more angry, how dare you Patrick!!
>
> you should really be so ashamed of yourself, instead of denying what you did by saying ‘but it is all good’, it is not even minimizing, it is pure denial.
>
> true bullying.
>
> I guess I also feel disappointed in some way, how could you??
> this is what turns me off big time, the act out and dumping on people and then denying all responsibility and even assuming a victim role.
>
> the worst part is not wanting to look at the ugly reality of this kind of behavior, just acting out your own frustration by hurting someone else.
>
> vicky, you stood your ground so well really, I am proud of you!
>
> one can lose one’s selfcontrol once, everyone can, but for this repeated habit of bullying, on the blog and now on the street, there is little to no excuse. you are smart enough Patrick, so being dumb is no excuse either, you should get your act togehter, gather some courage and start to honestly work on yourself, dare to do real therapy including be vulnerable or leave people alone and go your own way somewhere else instead of all this craziness.
> it pisses me off big time when people I care about get hurt.
> M
> maybe it is my neurotic need to get through and maybe I should not write this, but I am stunned with the hypocrisy and emotional blindness of your comment, Patrick.
>
> literally I have watched you see go this act with three different people now, insult them repeatedly, and then, as if nothing happened, act like the poor victim when you are not met with a smile and a handshake and use it as a means to give you the right to be hurtful and extremely offensive.
>
> you must not have had a clear conscience in the first place about your intentions of being there, otherwise you would not have felt so angry at Vicky for merely going back to tell people you were still there.
> what is the big deal if you feel at ease about your motives?
>
> you seem to set up the same thing over and over, act like a bully to people and then put yourself in the role of the innocent victim merely filled with righteous indignation of not being treated correctly and decently, at the same time including the PI as bad guys.
>
> pretty crazy if you ask me, which of course you don’t.
>
> you are the one setting it all up, noone else to blame here.
> M
David,
First of all, I don’t think it’s really possible to gauge tone on here……I am taken aback by your reaction, and by your description of me as haughty and arrogant,….way too strong for someone who has never met me!
Anyway, I was not trying to explain anything to anyone or lecture about primal on here. Your posts just made me realize some things about therapy, and I was just freely in writing these down.on the blog. I never thought that you or anyone else was unaware of these things, The blog is helpful as it makes me aware of aspects of the therapy, and discussing them on here helps me use it as a tool in my life
Try to remember that just because someone discusses or states something does n’t acutally mean they are lecturing……it’s just a normal part of discussion,
To address one of your other questions: frankly, your use of the term “primalling” seems dated. A person can primal for decades, but I do not think that is what gets us better. In fact the term can imply solitary feeling which, even though it has it’s place, is a dated concept. In fact, I do not think if things in terms of “primalling” or “having a primal” or being “cured” i see the therapy is a tool to get to old feelings and resolve them in the context of leading as full a life as possible, given a person’s pain. A lot of it has to do with the relationships a person has both in and out of therapy. That’s why retreats work so very well for anyone I know who has gone to them.
I think the length of time I have been doing this is completely irrelevant and we are all at different stages when we arrive, and have different issues to begin with, so there are a lot of variables.
Donal.
Margaret, this page is about feelings ?? The language triggered a feeling in me. Feelings are best expressed as felt not edited. I think I shall shove off. You all have the rules established of what is appropriate and a comfort level. Only they change.
I tried to qualify my response; your manner of expression triggered feelings in me. To me it is preachy. It would been no help to that process if I explain them away. I’m sure you are a wonderful person. So I have a feeling and then get admonished, rude, etc., etc. That doesn’t coach feeling comfortable with being vulnerable.
A few days ago a patient tried to convert me to religion, his version, christianity. He’s an emotionally volatile fellow with not a lot going for him. I gently but unequivocally said that I was not convertible. But I left him with his defences and dignity intact. It was not appropriate for me to tell him that his take on life and religion was wrong or dated.
So I don’t know you and my comments are untoward; and you receive supportive comments. You tell me my take on Primal is dated, but you don’t know me. And I bet that will be sanctioned.
Patrick,
I hope you are doing ok.
I had to ask about the phrase you used in your last post “Ridiculous “American” Nonsense”. Would you care to elaborate? I ask out of curiousity. Also, why is the word American in quotes?
Donal.
Thanks Donal. Oh I dunno I probably should not have said anything……………..it just struck me like “american” just a kind of posturing about ‘my house’ BFD!……………..I remember it as a heavily fortified (metal protection everywhere somewhere in the ‘hood’ but there is this kind of propriety tone of a ‘property owner’………….and the same ‘security guard’ or ‘cop’ kind of attitude. And that is “american” in that we have millions of prisoners and we have military and weapons everywhere………………….let’s just say “american” is not a compliment…………….
Not new to therapy, but new to the blog. This feels awkward to be in this cyber space, but since I don’t live near the Primal community anymore I need to get out of my comfort zone to reach out to Primal people more regularly. I’m especially aware of that now, after having been to the retreat earlier this month.
Hi to “retreaters” Jo, Larry, Leslie, Phil and Vicki. It was absolutely wonderful to see you guys at the retreat.
I’ve visited this blog many times but backed out on trying to introduce myself and start joining-in…there are many good writers here, which I find intimidating. But mostly, I stayed away because I was discouraged by some of the content. However, recently some dialogue started about the blog content; and I feel more encouraged. Hopefully I can contribute some content of value.
Vicki, the stalker episode… When I saw him skulking along the wall that day before group I almost took a photo because that person looked criminally suspicious and might need to be identified at some point. But when I learned who it was, it all made sense. His antics that day triggered many feelings in me, but lucky for me I was in a safe place to address them – inside the institute. I feel so bad for you that you had face such abusive behavior out on the street, alone!
The Amen Corner………………..piling on. It’s so nice to have the ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ makes people feel ok and ‘belong’ for a while……………………retreaters and repeaters/watch your parking meters/jump down an alleyway/the pump don’t work/the vandals took the handle………………..apologies to Bob Dylan
Oh, I was making a deductive leap based on the Multilingual punctuation in your typing. ha Given two choices I always have at least a 100% chance of being wrong. ha. ( I resist lol’s, ha; I instinctively thought it meant, ” Lots of love.”) Are you Canadian ??
Thanks Larry, I hope I can contribute something of value other than greetings and cute comments. But for the moment I’m pretty nervous about putting all this stuff out on the internet.
Vicki,
I just read your account of what happened when you left group: what a horrible experience. I can empathize fully with the feelings of being hurt and bullied. Though I have never experienced something like this in a long time, I am intimidated easily and that fear does affect my life in a big way. It is painful to think of how much I was picked on at school up to the age of 14-15. Reading your post made me realize how deeply this has affected me.
I really hope that you will be ok, though I am sure you are still shaken. It seems that you are getting good support from Gretchen and others, which is touching,
Donal
David,
I saw your response to Margaret above. I would encourage you not to “shove off” as you put it, but to keep interacting on here, There are no rules. Margaret and Jo were simply giving you feedback on how you reacted to my comments and what they thought, Nobody was trying to deny you feeling. In fact, if this reaction you into a feeling you can feel, well and good. In my experience, though, when I have reacted to someone based on misunderstanding how that person was talking to me, I had to delve deeper to get to feeling. Part of that delving is getting the perspectives of other people on what is going on.
Just my two cents……….
Donal
Part of growth through therapy is developing a sense of from whom you accept commentary. Victims of bullying are prone to accepting unworthy criticism.
I haven’t seen anyone give you any criticism yet, David. Like Donal said, getting a clearer perspective on present reality helps clarify that earlier feelings are colouring the present, useful if you want to get in touch with and open to those earlier feelings. All I’ve seen so far is people trying to help you. I was very surprised by the wrong impression you quickly and easily came to about Donal. That tells me you suffered a lot of abuse in your life and harbour a lot of unresolved feelings about it, easily triggered by the slightest incident in the present.
Like you, I had to test the waters when i first came on the blog. There are no rules, but for many of us doing the therapy, there is a striving to become aware of and dismantle the act out of the feeling, to stop the struggles and connect to the pain….very hard to do. I argued a lot with Jack back then, not in a hateful way but in fear and frustration trying to figure out how he ticks and understand him, and in the process triggered some primals in me. Eventually we understood each other and I care about the guy. What I found out is there is a lot of empathy on the blog, while some others, sadly, are barely capable of it. It’s also clear to me that actively doing the therapy engenders capacity for empathy that I rarely see in my non-primal world but I know it’s out there.
I feel safe in saying that most of us on the blog are still transitioning from the cold hearted outside world that we grew up in, to the empathetic primal world. We are still learning, each in our own way and at our own pace. There are no rules, but there are ways of behaviour that help stop the defense and get to the pain, which is what most of us here try to achieve.
I’m having trouble sleeping tonight, oddly enough. Nice to talk to you at this late hour and give my racing brain something else to do. I think I’m ready to give the pillow another try now.
David,
I saw your response to me above after I made my last post, To be honest, I could not follow the post entirely, and it took me a minute to realize you were responding to me (you did not address me). Anyway……….
I do not know what your take on primal is as a whole, and was not commenting on that. In fact, you are a trained professional(I am not), so I assumed you were far more knowledgeable that in this area.
You asked me how long I had being primalling for the record. That specific question is one that people at the Institute do not really ask anymore. Furthermore, it seems like a narrow question: a lot of people out there may regard what they are doing as “primalling”, but they are not involved in anything as rich as therapy as it id done as the Institute. I am not saying that you are one of those people.
Also, I did not like the fact that you were trying to assess me based on how long I had been “primalling” which, to some degree you were otherwise you would not have posed the question this way.
Donal.
David,
To clarify my last post: I assume that you are far more knowledgeable than I in this are, as you are in the profession and I am not. In my haste, I did not write this correctly above.
Donal.
I consider myself as simply a novice on the road to self discovery, certainly not superior nor an authority in any way. My questions to you were just out of a getting to know you a bit. I was struggling to explain that I find it a disadvantage not knowing the participants. My status in my family as a child was that I was always wrong, ganged up against, no safety.. And I am still influenced by that to varying degrees. Being bullied outside the home was one more extension. My reaction was not against you personally. I do not know you. Janov, more eloquent than I, once equated the experience of the neurotic to dragging a stocking through a bag of lint. The bits that stick trigger me. I completely understand that it may not be the intention of the other to be any certain way. Simply my perception. But the process of the therapy I thought was to let it all hang out. To then be told I am wrong is counterproductive to my learning to stand up for myself if I again become the victim. At the same time it is helpful to push the feeling. If it was resolved I wouldn’t be sensitive to it. I know, too, that I have gone into my head about this and that makes the words come out as crap. So I’ll end for now.and feel.
David, I don’t think your “words come out as crap”. They somehow make things clearer. And they have a sadness to them. All regardless of you needing to “end now and feel.”
Thanks for your comments, Larry, Jo, Sandy, Phil, and Donal. Whenever I write, even though I feel it was good, I still have fears I won’t be believed somehow, so it matters to me to hear from others what they saw or felt. I guess that comes from when my brother lied, and there was nothing I could do, that would make my parents believe me — they were just clueless, and chose to believe I must be to blame, and I got hit and whatever, for things I didn’t do. That brother only finally owned up to it and apologized for making my life hell as a child, when he was going through his AA 12-step program over 20 yrs. ago, which stunned me to tears at the time. Even still, I felt I needed to remain cautious of trusting him, because of his past habit of lying, I wasn’t sure how genuine his apology was. But he has made good use of his “therapy”, and been more honest about things ever since.
Hi Vicki,
Hearing you talk of your brother and parents stirs up memories about my family. I also had a brother who pulled similar tricks, and parents who were clueless and believed him. Since he was older he could put together a more compelling story (lie) against my attempts to defend myself to my parents so I was the one who caught hell. And just like you, to this day I still expect to be dis-believed when I defend myself or tell my side. This gives me a lot to think about.
I realize I am cutting in on a directed communication. But it suddenly came up in me how I felt I had to cut myself off from relatives, and some friends who constantly were canonizing my deceptive, manipulative, abusive brother, and relatives who were constantly comparing me to him unfavourably to my face.
And as in childhood I feel I can’t defend myself or I’ll be in trouble.
Huh, an old ache in my gut started, writing about it.
It was so good to see your post on July 13 Leslie. When I read it I felt yes!… I hope more people need the blog who want to use it as a sort of virtual primal group, where we can go to with troubling personal issues and feelings and find help from each other in dealing with them, please, please, please. It was so nice to subsequently hear from others who haven’t written here in a long time…Donal, Vicki, Jo, and now brave newcomer Sandy. Nice to see stalwarts hanging in there, Margaret and Phil, who I feel I can explore feelings with. Seeing you here I don’t feel nearly so alone.
The retreat ended on Friday, but I stayed in LA for a week beyond that, with the specific and therapeutic intent of having to make myself reach out and connect with friends, at the risk that they might not want to or might be busy and I would be all alone. My biggest lesson from the retreat and my subsequent stay in LA was that the more I can I let my walls down and enjoy friends, the more I find that I matter to them, just as they matter to me. The revelation hurts deeply, because good feeling, meaningful rapport makes the neglect and aloneness in childhood and my early life become strikingly, painfully clear to the core of my soul.
I landed back a home yesterday afternoon, sad to be away from the rich companionship of feeling, sensitive people, troubled by the heavy burden ahead of me to try to fill my life here in a richer, more meaningful way.
God it’s awful to be back in the land of the post-retreat, the non-primal. I feel soooo empty and alone now back home. I feel a strong, healthy need to strike up more frequent, regular contact with my primal friends (please move here). You really are special people.
I’m sure there are some non-primal people out there who would be as rich and rewarding to know. The lesson I’ve learned is to keep trying to find them, to break the pattern of giving up because as a little child there was no one for me.
I remember returning home form LA , buoyed, feeling so up to the task of getting on with it. And then the terror hit. I was taking in the wash, my daughter’s skirts and dresses and I fell into a pool of drool on the deck, I didn’t know how to iron them, I’d never make it. Into my soundproof primal room, set the timer because I didn’t want to compromise my kids lives with my pain. I phoned some primal friends but they were pissed that I had,” walked out on them ,” and I wasn’t welcome anymore. Talk about lonely. And an extra recurrent theme to feel on, only being valuable to friendships when I could be leaned on for support.
I listed some names in my earlier comment this evening. It isn’t meant to be an exhaustive list, but there is another I wanted to add. Jack, whether you know it or not, my interactions with you on the blog when it was a more caring place helped me to some feelings, because, I discovered, you are basically a decent, caring fellow, though often misguided and even, as you’ve said, downright bad.
Larry – I really don’t ‘get’ this kind of strong distinction between so called ‘feeling’ people and non feeling people. I say ‘so called’ in a very real sense.at least so it seems to me
Also I find it odd a lot of people say how ‘depleted’ they feel or whatever when they go back home now they miss the companionship and so on……………..I could see that but it does not seem particularly ‘healthy’ to me. I know I came back from my Cruise feeling energized and strong and the feeling I had a lot to do and work on. I also made a few good friends who I have a very good ‘writing’ relationship with now.
Several people here report kind of living from one retreat to the next to me to repeat that does not seem particularly ‘healthy’ It seems a weak kind of depleted life that needs the ‘charge’ of get together s like retreats. Again kind of the opposite of Janov’s original ‘promise’ but the way I see most all of it is the ‘opposite’ now including cutting people off and ‘moving on’ or trying to………………….truly ‘feeling’ people would not be like that……………
Thanks for saying how you see it, Patrick It seems that you are unable to comprehend or let yourself experience the therapy or the retreats, so there is no way I can share the experience with you and there is nothing more I can say to you about it. You will I guess remain an outsider looking in and observing, but never risking joining to find out what it really is about.
From my perspective, the retreats are the most unique personal growth opportunity out there and I feel very very lucky to be able to attend and participate in such a rare, precious experience that dramatically, profoundly helps transform my life towards a richer, deeper, more meaningful one. I’ve grown through what I’ve experienced at them, and my people here at home see the growth in me. I’m very grateful for the retreats and the change they’ve accelerated in me.
Larry: “I landed back a home yesterday afternoon, sad to be away from the rich companionship of feeling, sensitive people, troubled by the heavy burden ahead”.
I was wondering Larry after reading this comment of yours, if, on retiring in the near future (as I understand) you might consider moving to live here in LA. I do understand that there could be many hurdles, like health care, residency (green) cards, money transfers, finding somewhere to live, and giving up all that you posses there in Canada.
The upside would be to be nearer people you have good feelings for, the Institute and the chance to buddy on a face to face basis. Just a thought.
Your other comment about me be “caring” and was nice to read … and yes, there is that very UGLY side of me.
Vicki,
I am absolutely horrified with what Patrick said and did to you! It is unbelievable to me that there continues to be someone so sick and twisted still here. I feel so badly for you having to endure Patrick’s rants and the hurt from his verbal assaults. You wrote so well Vicki – stating the facts that need to be seen.
Patrick – your long winded explanations do nothing but expose the cruel person you are. The distractions about Vicki’s home make no sense. Feeling safe in one’s home is a good thing. Invading that space when you have only hurled insults at that person is not something a conscious person would do.
Justifying all your bullying illuminates how far you are from emotional healthiness Patrick.
I really wish you would get the help you desperately need away from here!
The Amen Corner is quite large for a while at least. About Vicki’s ‘home’ that was 2 years ago there was no question about ‘ hurdled insults’ at the time though I think at that retreat I made it clear than I didn’t see the point of Vicki in group sitting on a high chair ‘refereeing’ the proceedings (too difficult for her to get up and down on the floor it seems ‘ the very picture of ‘health’ I guess I was supposed to say or at least NOT say what is staring me in the face)
Leslie behind your ‘lovey dovey’ persona I see an unforgiving and in-flexible person your ‘disdain’ for me is consistent and strong. You are especially ‘strong’ in that you want me away from here so you and your ‘friends’ could all be so lovey dovey and ‘supportive’ to each other. Well I will go when I feel it is the right time to go not on your ‘schedule’……………..for some reason I feel I have more to ‘do’ here……………something is not quite finished for me yet but I agree it will be nice not only for you but for me also when that day comes. As for ‘primal’ and all the rest of it something tells me there are still some shoes that have to drop. This ‘therapy’ or this place here is no more yours than mine and you can spare your little lectures about me ‘getting the help I need’. I told you before I could see you dressed up in a white coat dispensing ‘meds’ or maybe injecting vaccines or something…………….doing what YOU think is good for them but not anything that’s good for them at all certainly your ‘advice’ to me falls on very dear ears.
You as I say seem especially ‘strong’ on that you just want me ‘gone’……………….a very prevalent ‘primal’ value it seems when things are not going to your/their liking……………..this whole mess is a result of that kind of ‘attitude’………………throw away world, dumpsters filled with thrash world disposable world well there is one creature (me) here who can at least say they don’t agree with that even if it is what is happening. The world is dying but at least somebody actually notices…………………and for the moment at least can say they don’t ‘agree’ with it………….
Leslie, thanks — you’re probably more horrified than I can be, because I was half expecting it, although hoping for better. But I also understand how the warped thinking of insane anger feels, when I just feel like I want to tear someone to pieces, as in road-rage. Fortunately, I don’t act that out, but I do feel it, and it’s frightening to be that crazy-angry.
And some years back I was having anger triggered chronically by a couple of people in group, and I tried to say what was bugging me, to them — over and over. It was never completely clear to me what exactly they were doing, that made me nuts, it’s mostly just a very strong feeling that I can’t put my finger on. Every time I felt that way, I felt like I had to try and say it to them, hoping to learn what it was more deeply about. Finally, Gretchen told me I was abusing them, and that I had to stop it. So, painfully, I did. I continued having the feelings, just not ranting at the people in question. I have those feelings on my own, and sometimes talk about the meaning, in group. I have long known that the anger connects to very early feelings, of being flattened, whacked or clobbered, especially on the left side of my head — there is some physical connection I often feel.
So I do feel like I have some idea of how stuck Patrick is, although I know he feels differently about it. Stuck and painful and yes, crazy. Those words can sometimes apply to me too, but I am not abusing people right and left on a daily basis, like Patrick does, and which he seems to feel proud of doing, as if he needs to defend his life against intolerable threat.
David,
Not to beat a dead horse here…..nobody is saying you are doing something wrong, except. But, when you start applying adjectives like haughty, arrogant and preachy to another person on here that you don’t know, don’t be too surprised when they defend themselves.
Donal
Speaking of the “Amen Corner” they were a cool group. I loved this song at the time………………also the video of those birds diving that’s the way it was at Venice beach just few years ago………………..not anymore the world it seems is dying all our ‘growth experiences’ etc notwithstanding………………………
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
Long as you love me, it’s all right
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
You got the power to turn on the light
Everybody tells me I’m wrong, to want you so badly
But there’s a force driving me on, I’ll follow it gladly
So let them laugh, I don’t care-are
All I want is you by my si… Ide
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
Long as you love me, it’s all right
Bend me, shape me anyway you want me
But you got the power to turn on the light
Everybody tells me I’m wrong, to want you so badly
But there’s a force driving me on, I’ll follow it gladly
So let them laugh, I don’t care-are
All I want is you by my si… Ide
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
Long as you love me, it’s all right
> David,
> I feel there is some miscommunication going on here.
> you are not blamed for feeling something or even for expressing it. it is merely something I and many others had to learn at some point, the ‘hard’ way as like what is happening here.
>
> as Jack would refer to it, it is much more productive to try to own the feeling as to put the blame in the other camp, specially in case of reasonable doubt.
>
> like if you would have said to me for example, the way you welcomed me makes me feel bad as it reminds me of so and so, and I feel patronized or whatever, I could just easily respond with I am sorry that is how it made you feel, it was not my intention, and there would be no controversy,, while still you said what you needed to say and if necessary I could search in my heart if really there is truth in what you said.
> but immediately blaming and accusing the other person of being arrogant or something, usually does not work out well and tends to close the communication instead of opening it up.
>
> the only goal in therapy is not expressing ourselves, imo, but commnicating with each other as welll in what then mostly turns out to be constructive for both parties.
>
> but well, sorry if this might feel like explaining to you, I really want to help you to feel at ease here, we all started off at some point not knowing anybody.
>
> no intention at all to make you feel bad.
> M
Margaret: I would like to expand on the statement you made about my reference to anger. Anger is very tricky to deal with for several reasons as I have experienced it. There is a tendency, and this happens frequently in my relationship with Jim to this very day, that the anger spirals out of control. Meaning; that Jim gets angry with me and I respond angrily to his anger which then precipitates and even greater anger from Jim. I discovered from my therapy that I need to prevent the spiraling effect. So I learned to get away from Jim and have my anger privately (usually into my pillow or by getting in my car and driving off to some side street). I learned to start off by saying such things as “What you said, or did, pissed me off” Then explode into all the expletives I could think of, and sometimes thumping something soft without hurting my hand
What that did for me over a course of time was to end before I got into the “blame game” as I call it. The insights that came out of it for me was to “OWN” the anger. In other words to know that MY anger belonged to me and not to Jim … even though he precipitated it. What I now prefer to call “he was merely the catalyst”. This was an enormous learning process for me and helped me in many angry feelings and situations.
Looking back on it all I see very often with others and groups and in particular with governments. this spiraling effect, often leading to war: with groups; to fights and can in some instances lead to murder.
In short I see the “blame game” as the act-out. Taking ownership of my feelings is the only way, least-ways for me. for any resolution. For me, one of many great lessons of therapy.
If anyone wishes to take my up on any of this I will be willing to get into a dialog about it, and hopefully explain it all in terms of MY FEELINGS. That’s all in the end, I have.
I encountered two days ago a Buddhist monk that claimed he had found the secret to “happiness”. He stated that being caring of others was what brought about ‘real’ happiness. Least-ways that was how I read the post.
It was my immediate feeling that he he had the whole thing up-side-down. I contend (in all my arrogance) that a fully-feeling-full person is naturally caring of others … for the most part. Once one is fully-feeling-full then happiness will rear it’s “ugly’ head from time to time 🙂 … along with all the other feelings that are a part of being alive.
I do confess that this comment of mine, may well be a good example of what Larry stated was my “misguided” self. Ah well !!!!, I felt the need to comment on it anyway.
Patrick,
In the following post, I am not being rhetorical: I am genuinely curious as to why you expend so much energy here. Let me explain,
Your comments regarding people living retreat-to-retreat and feeling deflated when returning to their live as after a retreat have some validity. Retreats offer a lot of hope for many of us, and people can get ahead a few furlongs at a retreat, making progress that would take much longer in therapy back in LA.
Some people are more dependent on the therapy than others depending on their lives, so perhaps have more vested in it in the short term. Also, some people may not have as much to go back to as others……some compassion might be appropriate here,
Personally, though I do have a good life to go back to, I have found that ordinary work/social life can be a let down after 7 days us a Casa Marisa. Actually, I feel safe up there and start feeling apprehension the last couple of days in returning back to LA.
So, though you do have points, I have to wonder how much you use these points to validate your obviously strong bias against therapy? The other question is why do you bother going next to near anything or anyone involved in the Institute of you have such contempt for it? You scoff at those of us who rely on the hope that therapy offers??? Why waste all that time and energy railing against something you have no belief in at all……does n’t make sense…..don’t you have other things you want to do with your life. The Dr. Cruz cruise is something you seem to get a lot out of, in contrast to primal which you dismiss as ineffective. L.et’s face it, none of us have can afford to piss away time: none of us will see more than 100 years pr so, and that’s the best case scenario.
The other thing is do you even like anyone here??..maybe you do, but it is questionable based on what I have read.
I am sure you have been asked these questions many times on here. However, I want to ask you directly. These are open questions.
Donal
Not a problem Donal in me experience you have always been truthful and genuine with me not at all ‘rhetorical’
It’s strange – to day I spent a very nice day with two guys (English) who were at the retreat. It all felt fine I didn’t really feel any ‘difference’ with them. I imagine or hope they felt the same way. So what’s all the fuss about?
I don’t want to start any other ‘wars’ about all this. Maybe and I \talked to them about this think of this Luther thing I have talked about from time to time. Maybe you were not reading but basically that’s the best short hand image I can come up with now. Luther was a ‘believer’ he never it seemed for a moment doubted the truth of his ‘religion’ but he did have major differences with the Pope, a lot of the practices of the Church like ‘indulgences’ he did not think Confession was a good thing and really stripped away most all of the structures and stuff that had kind of grown up over time.
This might seem ‘grandiose’ and maybe it is but for me today it seems to be enough. Maybe one day I will pin my ‘objections’ or whatever to the door of the PI and Janov’s centre.lol. I say ‘pin’ not ‘nail’ as I don’t want to have a damage claim! I think a lot of my unhappiness and disgruntlement is actually from being too much a ‘believer’ so that is ironic too. Anyway thanks for asking Donal it is nice to be asked in a respectful and serious way.
Also I noticed you were the only one who asked me how I was doing in relation to this latest snafu. You expressed support and empathy for Vicki which is fine of course but at the same time did not pile on me.I appreciate that as most all of the ‘tabloids’ were/are giving me kind of dreadful headlines. Shock! Horror! Appall! etc etc. Makes me feel a bit like Putin……………but that is the kind of company I am glad to be in. Lots of ‘propaganda’ in the Western world now…………….it seems almost to be a ‘way of life’ Can people even ‘think’ that well anymore………………..
Larry,
I hope you are doing OK back home: post-retreat can be an adjustment. The intense connecting with people followed by the more superficial daily interaction is a bit of s shock. AS I alluded to in my post to Patrick, I feel cocooned at retreats. I only notice it on the second last day when it is time to think about leaving. I sometimes think of the empty retreat center right after we leave. For all it’s beauty, the place is only really meaningful when primal people are there. Sorry we only chatted briefly the other day, but I will try calling you soon.
Donal
I’m functioning OK Donal. After landing back at home on Saturday, today was my first day back at work. The people are nice and the work is an interesting enough diversion, but after the retreat I hunger for far more meaningful connection and it’s not out there in my daily routine. I talked to a primal friend last night and the natural, easy, fun, empathetic connection helped my spirit soar for much of today from my sad depths of aloneness, like water to a flower, like catnip to a cat, like a bow to a violin.
There is the familiar crying of feelings, and then there is the crying of feelings that goes deeper and broader than anything I’ve felt before. One of the latter happened to me while I was in LA after the retreat, at my friend’s home. While in the feeling I descended into the dank pit of my childhood and with more open eyes took in much more of the horrible black emptiness. I could let myself feel and cry the agony down there only because I knew that when I got back up on the surface I had primal friends and the empty agony no longer need be part of my life, but can be put to rest down in the pit that was.
I’m going to need primal friends to help me through this, Your offer of a phone call is welcome and timely. Perhaps we could text to plan a time to phone.
At this moment early this evening I’m hurting from emptiness, but too tired from not enough sleep last night to let up feelings, so I’m off early to bed. I suspect that until at some point I’m able to cry out the hurting that is seeping out of me now, I’ll be miserable in the days ahead, suffering from post-retreat blahs (ie. suffering from eyes wide open look at my life and my need to make it a lot better).
Primal Institute 
Gretchen: I was under the impression that there would be a new blog article. Seemingly not just a way, I presume to take us back to number one (1) instead of 795.
Jack
Larry made a comment to Jack yesterday on the previous page, so out of courtesy for Larry I will copy it here:
Larry says: “I feel practice what you preach Jack. Drop your rant and find out what’s driving it.”
THE Ultimate Superstar Guru says: Uh-Oh! 😮
Guru – thanks I kind of wanted to do that……………but I though it might enmesh me in some more ‘unwanted attention’……………..
It’s funny what I ‘accuse’ the likes of Leslie of (cutting me off) I now sort wish I COULD do that with the likes of Jack. That I was ‘strong’ enough and sober enough.
To be honest I do find myself mellowing towards the Grand Old Man and I think hey be cool give him a chance, he is not so bad blah blah blah……………….but I have to say………….well maybe put it this way he would be a terrible therapist. Pointing out the obvious, shoving stuff back in your (mine actually) face endless repeating of his ‘theories’ judge mentality up the ying yang as in ‘you did better this time’ like some dude ‘grading my papers’ all the time, inability to pick to listen or pick out any subtle shifts. Now I understand he does not did ever really ‘want’ to be a therapist but maybe he should quit PLAYING one then!. I am not a therapist I just PLAY one on an obscure blog that about 10 people ‘listen’ to. I gives me (him actually) the feeling someone is listening and can ‘pontificate’ all day and have the illusion of importance. Pontificate is an interesting word from the Pontiff the Pope. Pope Jack The Second how would that sound? Not so bad huh?
Pope Jack assumed the throne around 2010 and his reign was undistinguished and marked by rigid adherence to ideology. Critics even well meaning Irish ones were slapped down un-ceremoniously. He seemed un-interested in the details of the Faith and also un-interested in the welfare of his flock. All that mattered to him it seems was religious orthodoxy and no technique was off limits in enforcing this orthodoxy. As he got older he seemed to get even more rigid and lots of people around the Court assumed he had lapsed into a kind of dementia. Most of them ignored him and left him alone except for a very troublesome Irish Cleric called Patrick the Cruel who would not give up criticizing him. There was another one called “Ultimate Superstar Guru the First” who was also somewhat of a critic but mostly keep his peace. As the gap between his orthodoxy and the troubles of his flock grew he did not seem to care. Any ‘evidence’ that would be taken by the average person as a ‘problem’ in the Faith he just saw as more ‘proof’.
We are talking about him as if it was the past but Pope Jack STILL rules at least in the Kingdom of his own MInd.
Patrick, I think it’s more a rule of a duo, you and Jack. Or maybe a primal comedy team. Phil
LOL!
Patrick plays the role of “patient” and Jack is “therapist”. The audience is not always getting it; still needs some work. And the audience does not seem to want to participate. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-19505) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
An elder made an obsevation at a recent Sacred Fire, ” If we were all gifted singers, there would be no listeners.” AW !! and HAH !!
I was listening to Obama’s talk at the WH correspondents dinner. He said that Ted Cruz (that has nothing to do with Dr Kruse) compared himself to Galileo because he does not believe in global warming. In other words Cruz sees himself as such an ‘out of the box thinker’ that he is that cool.
And then hmm…. I thought Jack compared himself (he did!) on the blurb of his’ book’ to Galileo AND Copernicus! (a twofer lol).
Obama said actually that’s not right because Galileo became famous for showing the Sun did not go around the Earth but the Earth went round the Sun but Cruz is famous for believing the whole World revolves around him. And I thought hmmm ANOTHER similarity to Pope Jack.
I am just having ‘fun’ here so before anyone freaks out and ‘ignores’ me some more you are all free to mock Patrick the Cruel as he has been known as in some circles. Patrick disputes that but he would being ‘Cruel’
BTW I thought Obama would make an excellent stand up comedian better at it than his ‘job’. Something I also thought about Barry B.
Speaking of what the World revolves round. Years ago I saw this comedian Andy Dick (yes that’s his name) say his whole act could be boiled down to “I am the piece of shit the World revolves around”……………I thought there was something ‘profound’ in that. Could I relate? I am afraid yes a little bit at least………………
> back to statistics and also writing an article about my way of working as asked for by a small university magazine..
>
> have had to take some sad and difficult decisions lately but feel deeply they were right.
> Patricks representation of the story of my
> e and my cat is even factually wrong, but hey, he is probably the only one to believe in his own version.
>
> also his memory of the things he said seems very different than the reality but well, no comment..
>
> it is true I have criticized his behaviour at several occasions, but always with the underlying desire to help him and never to just be hurtful for the sake of it.
>
> it is good sometimes he seems to get glimpses of his own act outs and what is not right about them, but I fear there still is a long way to go, and it will be all too easy to relapse I am afraid.
>
> have to let go, none of my business, have to go my own way.
> M
A ‘lapsed’ Catholic………….or a ‘lapsing’ Primaller……………maybe I will have a death bed conversion…………
Larry: Yes, you are right, I should be doing that.
Phil: I thought it was inertesting the way YOU put it
U superstar G: Thanks for reposting Larry’s post as yes, I did miss it
Patrick:
Maybe now that Larry has said it, others will follow. I will read them all.
For myself: Larry was not the first to tell me that … I got just that from not only my mother and father but from my siblings, and other kids at school. I will reflect (I promise) on all that was written.
Jack
The Pope cannot be seen as a total hypocrite!. Appearances are important and though nothing will change or is even planned to change it is important not to give bad example to the flock. They are mostly devout and true believers………….but still even they sometimes open their eyes and maybe would have some doubts. But a renewed expression of the Faith should work for now. In the long term who knows but it is important at the moment that the Pope is seen as devout.
I am happily nontheist, but if Francis could kick over all the traces as he has done the trappings, that Dude would have a wife, ok nod birth control, marry gays, ordaine women, take on social atrocities and govts and continue to commit his ultimate sin, loving people of all colors, and content of wallets, or lack thereof. He’d fire all of those sociopath red hats and invite the dali llama to be his spiritual partner. Edward Snowden would be a consultant on social morality. He’d evolve into buddhism, atheism or, nontheism. I think he’s da bomb !!! He has to be on the political assassination list. Can’t hurt that dude too much on a blog or quackwatch, although the republicans are trying.
In the 70’s we had a lot of clergy come for therapy. All RC clergy had been raped in seminary by the old Priests. They left the church, married; after therapy. We didn’t have any RC cleric pedophiles, I know it’s clear they are legion however; but we did have some protestant cleric offenders, sexual opportunists, family and spousal abusers.
But they were all too common in Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Guides, too. The etiology of that whole thing should be publicized. Secrecy never healed anything.
Come to think of it I think that’s a premise of Primal.
Larry: in an attempt to practice what I preach, I thought to add to my last comment and say what it all did to me.
It hurt.
Jack
I was ‘thinking; (a bad habit I have but I promise I will reflect on it and I can even already promise to do better, being ‘in my head’ has been deemed by the Pope a cardinal sin so I will ‘improve’ promise)……….anyway all this talk actually only mine about Popes, the Faith, the flock and so on got me ‘thinking’ (sorry about that I have not purged myself completely but I will adhere to the Pope’s latest penance , coming soon I am sure) anyway where was I…………oh yeah like just doing a survey in my own mind here it seems all the people here are Catholic/Christian whatever you want to call it………………like people who are set up to be ‘true believers’ kind of naive, well meaning a bit dopey, hooked on suffering and their own sins, told that thinking sad thoughts is somehow a gateway to Heaven………. but this whole place is founded run and organized by Jews. And I ‘thought’ (sorry again about that) that’s interesting……………..is there something to that and I think (sorry again) yeah there probably is.
But then I ‘thought’ (my bad) Tom V is an exception he is Jewish……………but actually I think Tom was really brought up and raised as a “Communist” and those guys are as bad if not worse than Catholics in terms of ‘true belief’.So I would say even Tom ‘qualifies’ the Communist part wins out there.
Of course Jack is a bit of a conundrum then, he is not Jewish but he acts like ‘authority’ here………..but first off he only ‘acts’ he ‘plays’ expert/therapist whatever……………..the rulers actually have nothing to do with him, have no connection and have a ‘hands off’ approach to all his works including his ‘books’. In that way he is what used to be called in politics a ‘useful idiot’………….someone who does someone else’s dirty work, someone who is loyal but does not know what he is ‘loyal’ to, someone who can be counted on to betray his own class and do the work of others who have their own agenda.
Guru – what do you think about my ‘comedy’ efforts? Do you think I might have a second act as some kind of Hollywood script writer…………..now be honest……………
If I say “Yes, you’re great!” you will like it and many others will see me as forming an alliance with the blog’s perceived pariah.
If I say “No, you suck!”…Others on the blog will commend my courage and independence of thought while you may dislike me more.
I hope you can see what a bad spot your question puts me in.
How about I just buy a Swiss flag to hang in my living room as a declaration of my strict neutrality, OK?
Guru, A comedy routine; are you laughing or not, no neutral here. I have been laughing, I do think it’s got possibilities. But needs to be tried in front of a live audience. Phil
Phil: the comedy routine has been on-going on for almost 30 years. It was called “Gentle Ginat Moving and Storage Compny”
I am delighted (somewhat) it makes you laugh. that’s way better than being sad and crying. (that’s not meant to be sarcastic) … unless you perceive it that way … in which case I can nothing about it.
I am all for injecting fun into the blog (it is another or our human feelings), but also I am not averse to anger either.
I am inclined to be a little wary of what I consider to be “lovey dovey” for it’s own sake. But then that is just MY feeling/reasoning.
One other factor I thought to mention was that I am reminded daily, from My Jimbo that I have an ugly side to me. His pet phrases are:- Oh! for fuck’s sake shut up” another is “You don’t understand” and a third is, and perhaps the most telling is:- “You’re on your ‘hoby horse’ … AGAIN. So I am kept aware of my short-comings and … Patrick does put the icing on the cake.
Jack
Jack, That is a long running routine you have had with Patrick.You guys must have had a lot of fun at Gentle Giant.I had no involvement with that, of course, and haven’treally been so much involved or targeted here.So I don’t have to take It all seriously. I suppose that isn’tpossible for you.Phil
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:25:10 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: The Gentle Giant story is a sort of comedy of errors … on both our parts; I suppose. The REAL comedy didn’t actually involve me, but it was a standing joke with almost all members of the company with two exceptions, they being the two (P & S) involved.
The only thing I insisted upon from the very moment of Patrick’s entry onto this blog was:- I know Patrick far better than anyone else on this blog (25 years) Of course, it also applied, he also knew me equally well.
I met Patrick way before he created Gentle Giant; (with his partner), and in those early days we worked together on several moving jobs. At that time I found him to be fun to work with, and laughed a lot at his beef about Michael Holden becoming a “Jesus freak”.
I was in-on the very beginnings of the company and introduce him and his partner, to computing in the business and lent them a computer. However I was fired within a couple of weeks and on being fired I walked over; unplugged my computer and took it away. Patrick immediately yelled out “Oh no! … we want the computer” … and within minutes I was re-instated. Therein is where the ‘comedy of errors’ started.
Enough for now; unless there is a general interest in the story from my perspective … which I strongly doubt.
Jack
It shouldn’t be a monologue though. Good, but I think the therapist needs to cut in with the punch lines. Phil Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.
Oh Guru – you are such a fence sitter! No need to afraid even though I can be known as Patrick the Cruel I don’t bite. (one time I told a friend of mine like my Dad they used to say about him “his bark was worse than his bite” and she replied ‘yes but who wants to be barked at all day. I thought that was pretty funny too) But whatever I know I could never be as funny as you so I am just doing my best here. Your humor is so good in short ‘bites’ especcially do you think I might have possibilities for some kind of long form drama maybe it could be classed as a tragi-comedy with emphasis on the tragedy part
testing
Margaret
> just a general observation to celebrate finally getting the comments mailed from the blog..
> isn’t there a basic contradiction in promoting paleo on a cruise ship?
> sailing, rowing, yes, but pointlessly burning tons and tons of fuel to go from a to b to c and back to a, or even having to fly back, does not seem very natural or ecological really.
> even our retreats seem more paleo with their locally raised organic food from the gardens and orchards, but well, as I said, just a passing observation that occurred to me.
> M
Margaret – you are totally right and well spotted! I HAVE sort of mentioned that to Dr K. (insiders get to call him that lol)) actually but I did not dwell on the point. I thought I was already such a ‘nay sayer’ at the retreats I did not want to repeat my (failed) history.
But sadly what you point out is like a central contra-diction of modern life to do ANYTHING it seems is actually bad for the environment, not actually anything but you get the drift. Since you mention retreats that is also an example and I NEVER even mentioned that one though I was aware of it. I tried to keep my ‘objections’ on point lol
I like the way you ‘bounce back’ you are not a wilting violet or a shrinking tulip or a fading rose or whatever you want to call ‘primal people’ who are all for exploration until it just gets a teeny weeny bit uncomfortable…………………and then poof there gone…………………
……setting up…..
Fiona – I address you to see how alert you are or if you actually read…………..well really kidding there but I know you have a problem scrolling down and it get’s worse as the thread get’s longer and longer.
Well a good ‘short cut’ (and it was Ultimate Guru pointed this out to me when the comments were getting all mixed up date wise I thank him for that) is to go on the right side of the page to “Recent Comments” and click the top one or even any on them but that will instantly take you to the bottom of the page or close to it.. Do NOT click “Recent Posts” Recent Comments just so there is no confusion.
This might make your ‘job’ just a small bit easier as I know scrolling down all the time can be a real pain in the a.. and since Margaret is such a voluminous writer I can imagine it could to be a lot of work. Hope that might help.
Now let’s see if you notice…………….read…………….
I am reading this fascinating book about the diamond industry “Glitter and Greed” by Janine Roberts and I start to see quite a few similarities to the strategy of De Beers and Janov. Might sound a bit out-landish but I really think there is some similarity there…………………I have to think carefully how to present this without outraging too many more people………………
Sins………………………………………………………………Act outs
Confession……………………………………………………Sessions
Salvation through suffering……………………………Feel the Pain
Church………………………………………………………..Groups
Retreats………………………………………………………Retreats
There are more but of a kind of ‘meta-physical’ nature that is very personal and hard to explain.
Just thought I might (for the fun of it, or hell of it, whichever takes your fancy) on the interpretation you offered re- your five (5) points:-.
Sins………………………………………………………………Act outs
Confession……………………………………………………Sessions
Salvation through suffering……………………………Feel the Pain
Church………………………………………………………..Groups
Retreats………………………………………………………Retreats
=======================
Act-out…………………………………………………………..against our NATURE and hence our REAL health … a bummer
Sessions………………………………………………………..getting to the real point of whats happening inside ourselves … leave confession to the Cat-ho-lic church
Salvation (other than the S Army………………………….Feel the feeling and ‘viola’ the pain evaporates
Groups…………………………………………………………..get to say your “party piece” … something the church never did allow!!!
Retreats………………………………………………………..’time-out’ from the daily grind of life. rather than running away (retreating) from the retreat site for a couple of days.
Jack
This should be called the Four Amigo’s Show. It gets a bit boring for someone who knows none of you. I left therapy in 1987. The old , ” Primal Bulletin Board,” was much more interesting and featured a larger cast. I don’t know if the call and response format is good natured satire between friends or barbed rants between people stuck in their old shit for 25 years. Either way, if you are all entertained then that’s all the site is accomplishing; from my point of view. Barry, bring back the Primal Newsletter. David H; Nova Scotia
David H: If you’re in for some fun from time to time, and sometimes sad stories that might trigger your own, and then sometimes things that ‘piss you off’; then you’re in the right place. If it worries you that there seems to be no progress then just say what you consider propgress to be.
Otherwise let us know what’s happening in your life … if you care to.
Jack: presumably one of the amigos
Thanks for the tutorial, Jack. I’m so grateful to have that explained for me. Anything can be defended.. Art had a word for that. I’m enormously aquainted with the Primal Process Jack. But this has been a limited cast hogging the lines for years now on this sit com. There’s progress and there’s stuck.
I’m pissed off that Fred Grey was murdered; that Jesus Heurta was murdered, unless he was Houdini. That’s not primal pain triggering anything; that’s my humanity.
David H: I am sorry that you saw my response as a tutorial. Most new commenters are welcomed, but, as I read you, (though perhps I was misreading you, highly likely), I felt you were seeing most of us to be stuck … without progress. That is why I asked what you considered progress to be. Of course, most of us read at least one of the books of Art Janov and got a sence of what it was all about.
I personally see the purpose of the blog as a means for respondents to state what is going on with themselves and to express in the own way how they feel. That simple by my reckoning. I was hoping that I was being encpouraging but …. who knows!!!!
Jack
It’s a “free” country as they say even if it is not! (I just heard on the radio 3 states either have made it illegal or are planning to make it illegal to take pictures of cops doing their ‘work’ – hello Police State. This is/was the ONLY thing to make them change their ways) so their is nothing stopping you changing the script of the sit com if you have a better one. Or adding your bit.
And while I would agree with you there is a strong element of ‘being stuck’ here I feel that too………….there is something about that judge mentality too that reeks of Art. (I also reek of Art but it is a ‘smell’ I am trying to shed with ‘mixed’ results)
I did it by accident a few days ago but I like making ‘judgementality’ into two words like that it is usually uses as one I think but my making it two it brings out a slightly different meaning………………the mentality of a judge
Vincent Bugliosi once said people usually have a high opinion of a judge but Bugliosi pointed out a judge is a combination of a lawyer and a politician. Separatatly people typically do not have a high opinion of either one but combined they do. A kind of alchemy there that keeps people ‘fooled’……………………
Patrick this deteriorated into irrelovance and then became cryptic, and seemingly sarcastic. Whether or not that is so, only you know.
I’m embarrassed by this reptilian response now, Jack Just my empty vitriole because I cannot stand any thing that I interpret as calling me stupid, making sport of me or smacking of very serious issues being trivialized. Both were translated through my own pain filter. Shit this is opening that whole Primaldora’s Box again. A whole lot different between thinking about Primal and feeling. I had been confusing the two again. Back in my head between the occassional feelings. Also I know I mostly cry away feelings as a safety valve more than feeling them.
I have beeen flooded with insights over the past few days. Thanks for the E book. Will read it this week and reply to you.
David, Welcome to the blog! It’s good to have more contributors here otherwise the discussion can get stuck in a pattern. It might or might not indicate people stuck on a personal level. I guess the entertainment level was enough to get you to comment. You say you left therapy in 1987. Do you still work at it on your own? Phil
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 00:38:59 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Oh, and sorry, I have no pseudonym to hide behind. So I guess I’m not a player
Most people here do not have pseudonyms so that’s not a problem. Though “Ultimate Superstar Guru” is getting CLOSE I have to admit. The only other one that comes to mind is ‘Otto’ or “Elephant Man’ or whatever he is calling himself this week.
dvddoodle99 LOOKS like a pseudonym and SOUNDS like a pseudonym and you know what they say about something that looks and sounds like a (duck) it usually IS.But it’s true dvddoodle99 does not not WALK like a pseudonym but maybe you can explain more………….
My stock, though genuine, response to friends, colleagues, or patients, asking my opinion,
a la, “(tell me what to do..”??? is that their brain is as good or better than mine at figuring stuff out; and you know the why of all that, Patrick.
Oddly avoiding taking credit for my own thoughts I was a master at assigning them to the notorious, ” I read, I hear, or tha omnipresent, ” they.”
I liked the format of the Primal Newsletter; and was also hoping to read what’s new in therapy thinking, how it has evolved.
My best male friend, and mentor, wrote Art a scathing letter after I loaned him my , latest, ” NEW Primal Scream,” accusing him of , “…strangling Primal into relative obscurity.” His issue is that Arthur never encouraged it to go mainstream, that he should have opened training centres for therapists across the US and Canada, instead of fostering the policy of cloistering it to so few venues.
Now I understand the quality control concerns.
He believes however that, in terms of therapists, ” …., the cream would have risen to the top, the chafe to the bottom, the misfits weeded out and this valuable gift to mankind ubiquitously available.”
I’m on a rant now, aren’t I ? Not many folks to talk Primal with on the east coast of Canada.
It was my little girl’s pet name for me. There were 98 doodles before me when I registered my mail account. Never added a user name to my profile; it’s David.
> David,
> the way you show up here makes me feel you carry a lot of anger..
>
> there are better ways to introduce yourself into a new group of people than popping up with a number of well, accusations?
>
> if we are that boring, nothing keeps you from coming up with what inteerests you or say what you would rather hear about.
>
> Jack invited you in his own way to tell us something about yourself.
>
> if you do not want to do so it is hard to pay any attention to your criticisms kind of ‘the best sailors are standing on the shore’..
>
> so, what would you like to read about, or what would you like us to ask you?
> M
Everyday, Phil, since 6 months after reading Arthur’s 1st Prmal Scream. Occassionally those out of nowhere little catch my breath feelings and the oh, wow, insights. No wailing and gnashing of teeth in the primal box; often , not a single tear. The feelings that weren’t deliberatly pursued, the ones that just pop up from that old program running in the background.
Hard not to let the ,” real world,” time demands interfere with feeling something completely; and so the repeats. But much better than not being able to feel.
“Occassionally those out of nowhere little catch my breath feelings and the oh, wow, insights. No wailing and gnashing of teeth in the primal box; often , not a single tear. ”
I like that. I was thinking (my bad again) if there is ONE ‘change’ or ‘improvement’ on primal as written down so far is to maybe get away as much as possible from the idea of therapy being identified with sessions, groups, retreats etc. The way I see it now therapy ‘happens’ or not every second of every day. To ‘wait’ for sessions and so on to me is a fatal mistake.
I am not saying others including therapists have not said stuff like that.but I do feel Art Janov has always to even to this day sort of implies he has some ‘magic technique’ that is exclusive to him and primal therapy. He does not !! That is what I was getting round to about the De Beers corporation. They convinced or tried to convince the world diamonds were very rare and hence very expensive. They are not it turns out diamonds are sort of everywhere and now they can make them industrially but to convince people they could only get the real gems from De Beers allowed them to charge very high prices
Diamonds are everywhere and so are feelings……………….it was one of Janov’s central conceits that it all had to go through him. Not true. Not true then and not true now. What makes me question him even more is he has never tried to face up to this problem at least in public. Which is where it would count.
Absolutely my conclusion. I look back now on my early foray into therapy, needing to impress, envying those souls who just fell into classical, meaningful, all senses engaged, deep Primals , as pretty much bull shit. I wanted it to be real, believed it was real, even argued that point once with my therapist. In the end it’s all fodder for progress. Finally no one to impress; too old!!! hah And now those,” diamonds ,” just arrive on their own out of the process of living. And some days I’m able to see them, recognize and feel them. One, that I had known intellectually all of my life and, ” worked at,” for 40 years, the whole sequence passed before my eyes as I was parking my car. It was like a movie fast framed.
What I was thinking about was how much I liked my new-to -me car, when it arrived.
Beyond feeling the extreme sadness came a validation, ” It was true.” the relief was huge.
My resignation was joy. Some sadness, too, that so much of my life had been wasted stuggling with that story line and those people.
Guilty of only 1/2 reading your post before responding. I don’t know Art. Moved some of his furniture once. The main Primal Patient occupation; that and bread baking…
Whatever motivates that in Janov , and Primal Therapy control, in general has I agree resulted in in becoming one of the best kept secrets. It was on everyone’s lips in the 70’s.I never meet even people in Psychology or Social Work who have even heard of it anymore.
Has Barry or Gretchen written any books ??
I quote you again:- “if there is ONE ‘change’ or ‘improvement’ on primal as written down so far is to maybe get away as much as possible from the idea of therapy being identified with sessions, groups, retreats etc”.
I totally agree that most of the time, for me, the feelings comes to me mostly when I am on my own … though at the retreats I was often thrown into a sad feeling of my own … mainly by hearing someone else’ story.
As I experience it, sessions, groups and also the retreats serve to poke me, I later, often when I have left, reflect upon the session or group and drop into a feeling. From quite small through to quite huge. As I see the whole Primal procedure…once I got the theory behind it all … I saw a whole ‘other way of being’. My therapy placed me squarely in that ‘mold’
To and for me:- that “other way of being” was simply to be integrated within my body and existence from seeing it ALL as feelings. I watch the PBS news nightly and the major issues of the day … first the Ebola out-break and now the Nepal earth quake are events that make me sad and I will often shed a tear for it. Other events on the news like the police brutality; triggers me into anger and I usually blurt out some expletive about them, and depending upon the valance, might strike a blow into a cushion or my sofa.
One other feeling that arises occasionally is fear, mainly fear of my own “process’ of my demise. It triggers me into an experience of the most unutterable fear when I was two years old and woke up to an empty house and no ‘mammy’ to come to me … and no idea what next; just:- I am about to die. The other feelings are mostly, fun, happiness, joy and just simple contentment.
All the above for me is what I now feel I gained from therapy. For me … well worth the price, the time and my journey here to LA. I see it all as:- that simple. No need to philosophize about it or spend a great deal of rationalizing, or thought about it.
Jack
Simply due to circumstances I have not made a Santa Barabara retreat. I agree with the value of retreats and sessions. My need to impress, to belong, made my early, “Primals,” a bit of role playing. If it was finacially possible I’d be back for sessions, apply to redo intensive; and attend retreats. I believe in the therapy unequivocally. I had more blocks than a retaining wall. Had I been able to stay past 10 months they would perhaps have crumbled.
I was measuring myself, my ability to Primal, against that hig screen 3D movie screen Primal, image I had conjured prior to coming to therapy. MY childhood lot in life was liar, and failure.
AS a young Social Work Student interning at a Psychiatric Hospital, the doc who supervised me jokingly said the classifications of mental illness were, mad,sad, glad,crazy, and all fucked up. AFU was me.
Rambling on in my head now; suffice to say my barriers to therapy were many and well fortified. They have to be to escape being killed.
In therapy I was sttruggling to get healed to finally have a life and convinced I’d be a failure at it and live on in that misery. I kept that to myself. A bit counter productive. I figured if Barry knew how bad I needed help they’d toss me rather than waste time on a hopeless case. When I didn’t see him after Intensive, I was convinced. You know the really top therapists are saved for the best outcome candidates, the star patients. Kept that to myself, too. Pretty fucked up shit, eh ?
When back home without anyone to impress, no one to try to get to love me best, I started to see some of those things. My next huge job was to stop thinking, stop trying to create the primal scene, doing it right. Thinking was my stay alive tool as a kid.
As I gave up trying it happened. A slower process and will likely cover little compared to a guided tour. Without a lottery win, that’s all that’s left for mme. My chance came and went.
David: Something moved me in this comment of yours. I sort of saw what a terrible time you had both in child-hood and also in your cut short therapy. It saddened me. Don’t ask me why … I might figure it out later … unless you have an idea; if so, it would be ok to tell me.
I personally don’t see ‘mental illness’ the way you describe your supervisor characterized it. I see it as the destruction of what should have been … a normal life in utero and the very early entrance into this world. That said, is it possible to reverse it?? I’m not sure … BUT I do see that some of that damage can be mittigated … such that one can get some sort of decent life from here-on-in. However, I am not into your head so I can’t say that the same might apply to you.
What I do feel very strongly about is that even for those not aware of Primal Therapy or Art Janov … there is a way to get some recompense. I wrote a second book titled “Feeling Therapy; Real Health: Yourself” where I hoped (maybe foolishly) that I might have something to pass on to others. Arthur Janov read the book and (breiefly) commented back to me:- “It is good but I never sign books because you recommended the Primal Institute as well as the Primal Center. It is concise and fine book” .
Vivian read my first book and wrote back to me:-“I found the first 5 pages stating principal of Primal theory to be a very good summary. In part 2, I think you risk your strong opinions to be taken as simplistic and hard for some readers to relate to. Neither Barry nor Gretchen have read it though I did give them a copy of my last book.
Wnat I am suggesting is that I would be willing to send you an e-copy of that book if you would supply me with an email. Mine is jackwaddington@yahoo.com. No offense if you would prefer me not to.
Jack
Seems to be a great need to get the Janov’s approval………………..I would wonder why. It’s clear they keep you at a distance which I suppose makes the need for their approval all the more. Seems strange after all these years hardly even a basic understanding of anything has been achieved. There seems to be a lot of deliberate ‘distancing’ going on here and you make yourself a sort of ‘child’ to them……………
I wasn’t kicking therapy. Believe me I would if I felt it was appropriate. I was describing defences I came to recognize in my primal box at home. I left to look after my teen age children when their mother moved in with another man. I was sold on Primal when Art wrote the first Scream. It seemed right. I was also exposed to observing the practice of , ” mock Primal, ” as the Institutes call it from then until I went to therapy. The patients were all chronic mental health ,”failures,” in the beginning, psychoses, addicts, suicidal; later, overflow Institute applicants on a waiting list from all over the world. They were all encouraged to wait until the Institute had an opening. Seeing them heal into drug free functioning reasonably content people was beynd exciting.
You asking “Seems to be a great need to get the Janov’s approval………………..I would wonder why.”
Actually I did not need their approval. What they gave me was to read my book/s and comment upon them. There’s nothing else needed. I have done the 30 years of therapy and that was me doing it for myself. For all your “wonderings” that is all I can tell you. I hope that answers your question.
Yes they kept their distance, but then they kept thier distance from all patients. That, as I read you, was one of your chief complaints … yeah????.
Are you close to Dr. Kruse?
Jack
Well he certainly does not keep his distance in the way the Janovs/therapists did. I spent close to 2 days with him which I think is/was good in that it helps take away any ‘symbolization’ or ‘hero worship’ tendencies at least for me. As I said before there were/are aspects of him I question a bit……………but at least I get to do that and not drift forever in never never limbo land as I feel a lot of ‘primals’ do.
I think it is an important part of ‘primal’ (as currently done) is to keep that distance and to me it encourages a lot of illusion. This ties into my conceit about Janov being like the De Beers the more illusion you stoke, the more ‘special’ and rare they appear, the more money you can charge, the more the market you can corner, the more ‘warnings’ you can send out first about other therapies and once that’s done ‘warnings’ about anyone else who does primal.
A funny thing about Janov he filed a lawsuit to patent the word ‘primal’………think of the absurdity of that primal is a word so basic and so beyond even ‘indigenous’ culture, it is more basic and more common to all humans and even all animals. But this dude tried to ‘own’ it literally make it his. Instead of recognizing it belongs to all of humanity he attempts to ‘corner the market’ and it all has to go through him. In an ironic twist little or nothing goes through him now……………justice I would say
“Diamonds are Forever” as the slogan went well Janov WANTED to be forever and it seems with you Jack you are one of the few where he ‘succeeded’
We all have a knack of twisting the words of others to demonstrate our own point of view; but you really “take the biscuit”.
Janov in the days after I arrive in 1981 did the Thursday afternoon group which I didn’t feel was his keeping any distance. To the best of my awareness he didn’t even make any attempt to keep it secret in that by the time I arrived (7 years later) there were at least 12 therapist. I gather he did not start to issue warnings until such times as he found other psychologist; from just reading his book/s, trying to cash in on it. As far as I know the patent office will only allow copyright to phrases and not single words in the English (or any other language). Such that he does have the right to copyright the phrase “Primal Therapy”.
I am of the impression that if others try to jump on the Paleo Diet bandwagon that Dr. K might attempt the same. The whole nature of patent and copyright is meant to protect people that spend time energy and money developing something unique. Arthur Janov certainly falls into that category. He certainly made no attempt to stop my book/s and especially the last one where I was offering a ‘do-it-yourself’. book based on Feelings. So … I am not convinced by your take on this matter. I stated in both books, that no-one has a monopoly on feelings. He did not question that accertion of mine.
Looking into my “crystal ball” I feel strongly that there will eventually be a universal recognition of his findings (discovery, and hence the theory surrounding it) and that eventually the medical profession will accede to that. However there is no guarantee that my ‘crystal ball’ has any validity in forecasting the future. One last factor:- Yes I am a fan of his; just as there are many out there that are fans of musician, painters, writers, actors or the like. Being a fan is not the same as creeping up to the guy for recognition. I have stated several times, there are few that know him [personally;- only his writings and work) and neither you, U.S.G, or I, know the guy that intimately. I follow only his therapeutic methodology … otherwise I remain the same flawed human being you have known since those early days, when we both worked a couple of times for Mike Lewis.
Jack
Mike Lewis now there is a name, Jack; Mike and his old Ford pick up and tow behind furniture van. What a scammer! I think Rory ??, pickup truck mover, referred me to him. I confonted him one morning with his dishonest behaviour. He wisely aborteds a move to physically sneak attack me, but promised I’d never work in LA again. I went on to work for Tom Foley and Oyvind, at Moving Hearts, Frank Mulhare, Patrick ?? a few times , and Elephant Move.
We moved in some of the same circles.
Try putting, ” Neurosurgeon,” behind ones name without being certified by the Allopathic medical monopoly.
Though hardly phyically small, I became aware in post group that I felt smaller and less significant than the therapists, and some patients who seemed to have the , “classic,” , “primals.”
Then one night my perception changed and we all were one size, and I perceived my ability to be equal.
My supervising psychiatrist was one of the very few mentally healthy docs at the psychiatric hospital; a warm, caring humanitarian, who did not do prescription pad treatment nor ECT; a younger Chinese lady, with a wicked sense of humor, from whence came the humorous def describing her archaic profession. Not indicative of her attitude or practice. And certainly not mine.
I’m not sure what stirred your feeling. Yeah, I survived every worst that Chas Dickens should never have written you can imagine. I had a good live in grandfather but he died when I was 8. And then I repeated by assembling a cast of significant relationships where I gave and got nothing or got more abuse. You know the drill. I avoid those now. But there’s not a lot to pick from. My only emotionally straight pal is 90, and no longer mentally acute. The other friend here who had years of Primal ,”informed ,” therapy, descended into addiction and after regaining sobriety becoming emotionally inaccessible, after his horribly abusive father died, I gather ending the possibiity or hope of ever resolving that.
So settling for understanding what’s going down, what the limitations are when socializing with egocentrics and narcissists is a trade off to having a friend who is interested in what I’m about.
And to be fair I’m not an easy match; non theist, non bigot, non racist, socially and environmentally conscientous, non macho, with an advertised weird belief in equitable sharing and that the well being of all living things is as important as mine.
Sometimes being all grown up is about that accepting what I cannot change thing. Tears are very healing.
My 40 year established pension fund got gutted by a frequent trader manager and exposed in the 08 crash. My share of the 200 + million dollar fine was $ 48.62. Just explaining. I believe I have fully felt that. Except for the, “it’s unfair,” feeling. That’s an old one though. I’m laughing about it right now.
My retirement plans included returning to LA. That is not going to happen now. Reality.
“No need to philosophize about it or spend a great deal of rationalizing, or thought about it”
It seems to me you do little else……………….
I get the feeling that your “Seem” (or is it seam) is a bit out of ‘flunter’. However, I doubt that you might be willing to give that some consideration. Just my gut feeling about you … having known you for these past 30 years. But whatever.
Jack
Not so much anger as angst, Margaret, for the real issues out there, and in my personal life. Not to get , too, ” Primally 101,” here but my mother, I would learn through feeling, brought up plenty of anger in me by constant complaining, never doing anything to deal with those things but try to get someone to look after her and blame all of issues of her own initializing onto other people. Perhaps sometimes in situations where I’m not being paid to be supremely non-judgemental, I still drift into my reptile brain and get pissed off like a little kid.
And maybe a bit angry that circumstances called me home 6 months short 10 months into my LA stay. But the tool box I was able to assemble has been a valuable ally.
You are correct, maybe, Margaret. I like to say I have let it go. I actually thought that was true.It makes me sound like a better evolved human. I think hurt is the toughest thing for me to feel. On the other hand you have not a clue who I am. I expressed an opinion. Guess I lost that round with you.
Remembering summer.yes it is hot as hell in l.a. and it is not summer. Quick note for posterity. Just about to fall asleep. Black cat wants to be in the room with me and dogs. Cat always wants to lay on edge of bed, which always makes me feel trapped. Then starting to drift off, and I see this recurrent dream of some big big building with many rooms, no people, secret rooms. Immediately thinking of the attic my uncle used to put me in,then I am thinking I should look up other closet-boys on the internet. I guess that is pretty horrific when you think about it. Really trapped and alone. Well I will never feel this feeling, and I would really like to have a better dream than this giant building industrial that has secret panels and walls and hiding places. Good nite
Very difficult to get out of.
I write this with some apology to Mr. DVDdoodle99, because it seems like he is opening up now and I don’t want to stand in his way….however…
I felt somewhat of a sense of urgency to type this out before I forget, OK? I do apologize for “stealing attention away from another”. Once I finish this post, I will walk away for a short while, at least.
Not long ago, I wrote about how music can seem to contribute to mood disorders over the long term because of how it has become a hyper-emotive acoustical drug today compared to ancient Primal man using bird wing flutes 40,000 years ago,.
Below are three good examples of kick-ass songs that are so fucking depressing to me now that I shake my head in bewilderment at how I listened to such sad songs so much when I was a teenager. I maintain they compounded my depression….Sure, the songs are a beautiful expression of melancholic feelings, but they are so powerful they bombarded my little teenage brain into needing Prozac more than would have been necessary without listening to them and having them reverberate constantly in my mind for days because of my kickass 60-watt Pioneer/multi-way Jensen/sound-absorbing cloth car seats. Creates a bad mindset when trying to study Calculus, you know? It really did….How the hell can I study complex, delicate logic when I was being tossed asunder emotionally by my own car stereo system? My party friends all thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread, and I didn’t know any better or give what I was doing any serious reflection unlike today.
Warning: Intense Depression Ahead
The Smiths “How Soon Is Now”
The Smiths “That Joke Isn’t Funny Anymore”
Bryan Adams “Everything I Do (I Do It for You)” <—Probably the best-known of the three
I’m done now, thank you. Back to DVD and others. I wanted to get this off my chest.
Guru, What I find is that music can help me get deeper into a feeling I’m already having and I’m attracted to it for that reason. An example, Jimmi Hendrix “Blues” compilation; I want to listen to that sometimes when I’m in a really low down feeling, basically feeling like s**t. If I go deeper then I may want to turn the music off as it becomes a distraction I no longer need. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:55:33 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Funny you should mention Jimi Hendrix, Phil. “Waterfall” is my favorite of his and it happens to be a cheery song for me. But yeah, I do see much more clearly how I got carried away by music when I was younger. He’s no longer in the business (think he’s dead now), but Bob Shabel was one of the best stereo installers in the country for a time. I wish I had never met him in some ways, LOL!
Guru, I’m going to check out those songs you mentioned later on. If you were to listen to them now they don’t have that effect? To me the grunge rock genre is all depressive stuff and a lot of alternative rock too, but it doesn’t quite do it for me. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 21:20:43 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: It’s the same effect today as it was a long time ago, but today I am much more cognizant that the music itself is altering my moods (many times for the worse). It could be simply because I am older & wiser, but I am willing to concede it to Progress in Primalling (ie. learning more about myself and who I am, etc. etc.)
Guru, As a child music was important to me and my brother as well. I remember when I was about 12 and he was 17, his musical tastes were changing. He started listening to Black Sabbath and Mahavishnu Orchestra and similar things. Music having little joy I would say. Jehovah Witness people came around to our house and he took their pamphlets seriously and was talking about Satan the devil etc. I could see how he was becoming delusional, or at least it seemed so to me. Then what happened is he had a psychotic break, which he’s never recovered from to this day. The music didn’t do this to him; he always had a lot of problems Apparently he latched on to it due to his state of mind. Also he attempted suicide by drinking rubbing alcohol. A part of that low down feeling I was talking about besides other things that took place in the family. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 21:37:03 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Wow … what a nightmare.
Jack
Jack, Yeah pretty much a nightmare. Phil Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:25:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Link to Hopeless Romantic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs4mEdlx8qY
My close friend used Hendix music to access feelings, especially 1st line ,before he had sophisticated language. For him, an accomplished musician, it was the music not the words.
For me it was words; I write songs. I stopped performing because there was nothing I wanted to be connected with saying anymore.
A few years ago the music became more important, both Cello and Sax began stirring feelings.
My choice for moving music moved to raw Rock and Blues. And the way women musicians voice their instruments seems more primordial to me.
Worthy selections. May I nominate, ” Hopeless Romantic,” Billy Vera, to that fold. It so strongly stimulated that, ” nothing left,” feeling the critic demanded he cheery up the ending a bit. It still moves grief in me; the first time dredging up my loss of my 4 year old daughter, ater cardiac surgery. ” I live in a dream world of caring and sharing, Of good guys and nobody lies…”
Well, the point I was trying to re-iterate earlier today was simply that I don’t regret listening to much less music than I did in the past. It has helped me quite a bit in terms of emotional stability. I won’t speak for others here, but I definitely notice the difference for myself overall. I figure if primal man didn’t need anything more than bird wing flutes 40,000 years ago, it has been easy as pie for me to just listen to absolutely nothing but my own thoughts & contemplations on long drives, etc.
Why waste our short, fragile lives being bombarded with mass-marketed external acoustics when it can already be difficult enough as it is to discover & unearth our own deepest musings without such distractions?
Guru, I can see about those Smith’s songs being depressive but not really the one by Bryan Adams. Doodle, that Billy Vera video is a good one. I have loads of songs which work with sad feelings, here are a couple: “Leaving on a Jet Plane” by Peter Paul and Mary. My sister gave me an album this was on, and then she left on a plane, she was always leaving. “I left my heart in San Francisco” by Tony Bennett. I’ve never been there but the song gets to me. “The times of our lives” by Paul Anka. A very “primal” song, it minds me of my father. Phil Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 04:24:42 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
davydoodle is my middle daughter’s pet name for me. It got used when I finally agreed to give up my tech resistance. I vowed when I retired the computer would remain in my old office. My name is David. Now this is sad, some friends call me David, some , Dave, and some, Davey. I unwittingly memorized who uses which version and used to idenitfy myself accordingly when corresponding with each.
We don’t know each other – but I was and continue to be sorry for you and the unimaginable loss of your young daughter…
L.
That is kind, Leslie. Thankyou. I watched a TV movie when in LA where George Burns played god,
he was in the witness box and at a point in his evidence I was moved to tears. After feeling the feeling and weeping I rewatched it, it was one of those play it over and over channels, and at the same point sadness came up again, but a different facet of the feeling. So I watched it again, same point another feeling memory. This may sound too trivial, but besides feeling I got an educational experience. !st time watched in my buoyant enthusiasm about Primal, I was, ” Yes. It works. I ffelt that and it’s resolved. 2nd time it thought it didn’t work, here I was tied up in knots again, and then found it was a different feeling; and so on. I’ll confess to experimenting with multiple viewings. I should have save time bought a VCR and the movie..hah And I started to learn that I would have to feel some things over and over, some would never resolve.
At a Institute Halowe’en Party I wrote comic Primally lyrics to the music of the Everly Brothers tune, ” Dream.” The last line was, ” Oh Mr. Janov Primal really is a scream.”
At the end of the day I give thanks for Primal, I love it, I hate it, I wish I had never heard of it. Sometimes I say I wish I had been a drunk brute long haul driver who believed his wife and dog were to blame for his misery, instead of a social worker, adding the misery of the world to my own personal load. But Primal changed that, too.
I will never be Primal Man. Most days I’m not aware if that still makes me feel like a failure. I suspect that I am too well defended to be able to access a lot of pain. My mother would say I’m simply too stupid to ever get anything right, I know that’s untrue but some days mommy still knows best.
I don’t deliberately try but apparently I ‘m good at hiding because people, except a couple close friends, who know me well talk about how strong I am because I have remained happy, smiling, and there for others despite personal adversity. There’s great song, ” Hiding,” recorded by Albert Lee; written by a good friend of mine, about hiding our feellings.
I never bad mouth Primal because that might prevent someone who needs it from applying.
I need to talk. But too tired now. Hope I get a turn later.
Ya know what, I am really really fucking tired of this shit. This fucking goddamn shit. This motherfucking goddamn shit that makes up my life. I am reallly really really fucking tired of this shit. I have had e-fucking-nough.
Yes, I have had it. I worked really hard to get a job application in by deadline. Then I didn’t read all the instructions carefully so I didn’t include a required form, and I was disqualified. I didn’t really want the job, just the money, so no biggie. Then my friend at work allowed me to listen in to his over-the-phone- interview for this same job. He is very adept at speaking, even though they gave him difficult questions, he did a good job. He relates well to people, he kept his cool, and his confidence. So next to him, I feel like a total schlub. You know I can’t get my mouth open in group. I would have done miserably on the interview. I hadn’t any time to prepare for the likely questions that they asked him because the old dog is draining both Z and me. The house looks like shit, the cat is sick, the other dog has long long nails and I don’t have the energy to trim them. We are very broke and I was actually hoping to get this job so I could pay some bills, even though the job would have entailed so much more work. I am taking off so much time at work, that I definitely would not have been able to do this job. Now some one of Z’s friend’s mother has died, I don’t know if Z is even coming back with the car tonight so I can go to work tomorrow. She is consoling her friend. The head honchos at work, 2 of whom were the job interviewers, keep giving out creepy statements in our meetings, political bullshit, work more more more and you too can go to the top, like the young kid who is going to get this job, who has been groomed to take this job, who this job was created for, yes, even my black friend who did great on the interview, he knows this, all of us at work know this, motherfucking masons, motherfucking bitchholes. Bringing up feelings in me of beatings. That meeting today was a real beating. Old beatings I cannot remember. Or just one life-threatening beating. Mental beatings by being locked in an attic with no food, and only cardboard boxes as friends. The attic that peered down on the pigeon coop where my uncle would pull out baby pidgeons and pull their heads off and encourage me to do the same, and watch as the headless birds stay upright with blood spurting out of their necks, and being encouraged to laugh at it, this is the feeling that I experience at work all the time now, not visually, but just “I CANT STAND BEING HERE! I HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE!” And the rest of my life, the fucking dryer crapped out again. No problem because it is a hundred fucking degrees here in the valley, put the washed clothes on the chairs in the backyard. I cant wait to go back to work tomorrow, cant wait to get a coffee and a sandwich at 7-11, push so much carb sugar into my bloodstream that I feel like I am on heroin, so I can force myself to work yet another day. Good to go to work, because focusing on my job keeps me away from all my shit feelings. Except for today, with the meetings with the asshole bosses and their devious plans and their back-office clandestine closed-door meetings. The cat is howling and I feel like chasing it with a broom, but I don’t have the energy. I could watch porn on the internet, and I could have the speaker turned on since Z is with her grieving friend somewhere, but I don’t have the energy. I finally got more than one tomato plant planted this year, but so the fuck what. Living near the freeway, the tomatoes will probably be poisoned by asbestos and other crap. I cant go to the mens retreat in the desert, and I don’t want to go to the fucking desert and play poker anyways, but I am jealous that people get to do things that I cant. I went to the fucking desert when my 2nd kid was young, with his boyscout pack and I felt so out of place, I am so afraid of people or uncomfortable around people, it is horrible. I just want to get into a room and scream and yell about this bullshit, but I wouldn’t have even done this at the previous institute, because I don’t want anyone to hear me. Making noise got me sent to the attic as a kid. Making noise as a kid got me doped up with something, milk sugar, who knows what. Come on dog, just fucking go to sleep and let me write my misery out.
Your life seems really difficult, too difficult. I feel mine is easier in comparison, yet I identify with yours. I easily feel immobilized. It often feels too difficult to take necessary steps toward change. That’s what I hear in your post, and it strikes a chord in me.
Otto,
It sounds like your uncle was extremely sadistic and sick. I guess you can’t scream and yell where you are. Maybe the neighbors are too close and it would disturb the
pets? I use my car in the garage as my primal box. It’s quite cramped but it
does work as far a privacy. In the winter I bring an electric blanket there in addition to pillows.
I also relate a lot to your posts although my life is mostly different.
Phil
Huh! “Primally Inspired” recipes and natural living.
http://www.primallyinspired.com/
Dude, I don’t see any organic jelly for my intercourse. . .
It’s interesting to me how 40 years after the Primal Scream, the word “primal” is still felt to have significant cachet in cultural consciousness such that businesses will attach their brand to it to promote themselves.
Larry – if I can gently disagree again ‘primal’ is word regardless and independent of Janov. Now it’s true he tried to make it ‘his’ or synonymous with him which to me encapsulates many of the qualities which meant ‘primal’ could not or did not succeed as done and defined by him.
Does not mean it cannot ‘succeed’ but it would IMHO take a pretty serious re-think and re-vamp. Primal as a word was there before Janov and hopefully it can withstand his ‘influence on the word so it will be there after him. And it seems that it is.
Very different perceptions of reality you and I have, Patrick. Interesting what a different tangent your thoughts take. I wonder if it’s hard work to maintain them.
Larry – No I would not say it is ‘hard work’ and I don’t like the smirky last sentence………….of course you are sure to get ‘support’ here so you feel ‘strong’ enough to talk like that to me. I really don’t like the supercilious and pseudo knowing tone in that……………like you really KNOW? Do you?
Phil – it’s a good question you put to me…………..if you don’t mind I will leave it awhile as I would probably only repeat myself so let me think about it a bit.
Huh. I was just wondering. No intent to be smirky. You sure jumped to that conclusion quick.
It’s better not to talk to you. You take things the wrong way.
A person who knows Art told me he regretted from the get go using the word , “Primal.” It was a convenient word to describe a phenomenon so different from any patient experience in psychotherapy.
Why not invite Dr. Janov to comment on this forum, about , ” Primal,” usage and the supreme being image that is painted on him, instead of second guessing the man. He was able to regroup on return to LA. Some people must still regard him positively. ????
How much negative feeling towards him is transference ?
dvd: Where exactly on the blog did you infer that there is a supreme being image painted on Art? Can you doodle the answer on a slightly clearer canvas for us?
I recently ,” outed,” my name, “david.” The inference I keep picking up is that many people believe that Dr. Janov construes himself as some superior being. That he is only interested in protecting his turf and the notiin that only he knows how to do the therapy correctly.I don’t know the man. I think there’s an equal chance that others for their own needs and reasons will see him in many lights and they will all more than likely, in some small part, or wholely, be wrong.
There is no evidence that ,” Primal, ” theory ever emanated from any mind before his ,” discovery,”and no way of knowing if, or how long after, it would have ever been discovered. Putting it out there cost him dearly. Whenever anyone swims against the current of political power there is a price to pay. And BIG PHARMA medicine protects it’s turf. And, thankfully there is a conservative brake to new iideas.
But I beieve Arthur Janov is owed a huge debt of gratitude for Primal theory.
Oh, ?? your sarcasm drips, ” Guru.” The Inuit have a theory that sarcasm is a childish way to indirectly express misdirected anger.
dvddoodle99 – I thought Guru’s question quite reasonable and didn’t see any ‘sarcasm’ in it. Since the blog seems to be messing up a bit again in terms of where it puts things Guru’s question was:
“Where exactly on the blog did you infer that there is a supreme being image painted on Art?
You can reread it but more to the point I am permitted to make my own interpretation and the comment was not directed to you.
Guwrote , maybe I would care to “doodle” more clearly. I say that’s sarcastic. Come on, all of the Art haters allude through their own transference goggles that he holds himself as being otherworldly. I know I sure as heck have not made the contribution to the possibility of regaining mental heath as have he and Vivian, et al who made the cut as certified therapists.
I argue more should have been done to force Primal into the prima therapy.position.
The problem therein; lies in the acronym IMHO. If you only knew from whence your, or anyone else’s, “opinion” originated … you might use it a little more sparingly. An opinion proves nothing in the final analysis, and demonstrates it comes mainly from that solo performer “the left lobe” Jack
Larry, Businesses may not be referring to primal therapy when they use the word.
I see google says that synonym’s to primal are: basic, fundamental, essential, elemental, vital, essential, intrinsic, and inherent. I wouldn’t use the word in those senses though.
Patrick, I don’t know why you insist on remaining with our cult here. I’m guessing we’ve all gotten the message by this point on how you feel about Janov and primal. I’m fine with that, but it’s the repetitiveness that starts to get to me.
Phil
I agree Phil. I doubt that the businesses are referring to primal therapy, or that they’ve even heard of primal therapy. What I’m saying is it’s interesting how the word has been assimilated onto the axons and dendrites of western culture consciousness, after the Primal Scream came out. I don’t remember hearing the word primal before then. Google primal, and most or all references to it are dated after 1970.
Larry, that is an interesting point and I think you’re right. Freud made use of the word primal but it doesn’t seem like it entered common usage at that time.
Phil
I have to doubt if these businesses are piggy backing on Primal Therapy. When I used to bring up, ” Primal,” at professional gettogethers beyond the mis 90’s , psychologists and social workers had never heard of Primal. Once the threat failed to materialize that Primal would, as I believe it should, replace the failed, ” conventional,” psychotherapy, and push psychopharmaceuticals into disuse, sadly, Primal disappeared from the popular lexicon.
Primal theatened to kill a financially lucrative sick care industry.
I obviously have never and will never reach the level of Primal experience of those of you with 30 + years interaction with formal therapy, but I saw enough in practical application with other patients to make me an unequivocal believer in the efficacy of Primal theory.
David, I think there are less than you can count on one hand how many here have 30 years of interaction with formal therapy. My understanding is that some on this blog have been in it very briefly and now aren’t doing primal therapy at all nor living it. I had less than 2 years of formal interaction, way back when I started primal, and have lived away from LA since. More recently, I’ve been on this blog for the almost 6 years since it started and in the 6 years started going to the retreats.
Since starting therapy way back then I’ve been primalling throughout my life, slowly in small dribs and drabs making changes to my life, squeezing out the pain and gradually, little by little coming out of the shell I was deeply embedded in. I find that this blog and the retreats have helped me to see the things I need to do and have accelerated my passage deeper and deeper into my childhood where I strongly resist going.
Like you I have no doubt as to its efficacy, and I see how each individual is complex in their history, their personality, their defenses and their willingness to look at and change their life and to primal, and the efficacy of the therapy varies accordingly. Primal therapy isn’t magic that easily makes life better. I see some people have a really, really, really hard road to slog to better their life. I see that very few people want to do that. I wish there was a way to help the people in therapy who have a really hard life, but the therapy only works from the individual trying to better their life. I see that ultimately we each have to re-experience the worst of our life on our own, which is the hardest thing to do, and must be almost impossible for individuals with strong defenses.
Well put, Larry. Not knowing the other bloggers I wanted to be clear that I have only had 10, but very valuable, months of therapist directed treatment, and then on my own as life
digs it out and I happen to be up to recognizing it. No magic. But know
there are real reasons for my imperfections, not imaginary.
Oh how I wanted there to be magic. One of those keepers of the secret would push my button and I would scream my way into a perfect, happy life.
Somewhere in those months I believe I lost the ability to kill myself. Somedays I lament that loss. No lack of opportunities to feel pain.
Thank you Larry and David! This is refreshing to read.
Absolutely, therapy is a long, drawn out process and it has only been with the skilled and caring guidance and support of Gretchen, Barry, Vivian and Art, Mark and others over all the years that have made it possible for me to get the help to help myself. To now recognize and allow what I am feeling is such a monumental yet comforting sense of being – that I am forever and ever grateful to have and count on.
From across our fine land :),
L.
Larry – I wonder if your way of thinking is hard to ‘maintain’. Just to repeat a bullshit question or to quote yourself below………………
“The reason I wonder is because something is driving you to go on and on, telling us over and over, trying to convince us. … or yourself? … or wanting validation? …or what? Hammering away, over and over, for some reason. It seems like a lot of work. I imagine it would be tiring.”
Otto, with all that daily sugar, I would worry you could be diabetic, and is your blood pressure ok? My other brother did not take care of those things, just got up every day and had lost 20 lbs, so he thought he was ok, but he had a stroke over a month ago, and lost serious functionality, senses and muscles. He is unable to drive, in a wheelchair, learning to walk again, regaining his balance, wearing a catheter, on meds just to keep from throwing up all his food, facial left-side numbness, blurry left vision, now on insulin as well as blood pressure meds. It was too easy to have happen, and he lost even more control of his life.
Wow, Vicki, awful..
Vicki, that is terrible what happened to your brother. How old is he? That is so sad.
Phil
Larry – it is hard work to maintain your ideas? What kind of a bullshit question is that? Is it ‘better’ if it is ‘easy’ or ‘hard’? Why don’t you say what you are really thinking? So the question for you is is it HARD or EASY for YOU to maintain your ideas? What are you really driving at?
The reason I wonder is because something is driving you to go on and on, telling us over and over, trying to convince us. … or yourself? … or wanting validation? …or what? Hammering away, over and over, for some reason. It seems like a lot of work. I imagine it would be tiring.
Stuck at home again with dogs and cats and hellish heat. Z took car to go see her sister. Worked overtime this morning, and that was the highlight of my day. Pulling old data out of an ancient system to figure out if old computer equipment was gotten rid of or not. It is interesting to me, in that it is a puzzle to be figured out, how to get this data out of a kooky-ass database system. Took a nap, got up and did nothing. Too hot, no motivation. Also, I know that if I start to do something, either the old dog will bark and gutterally talk because he wants to pee, poop, eat, or drink. Or who the hell knows what he wants. Or Z will call me to tell me what a good time she is having, or she will walk in the door when I finally have gotten myself motivated, so I don’t bother doing anything. I finally got started listening to music, which is difficult enough, because most of the music that I like is old (60’s) and it makes me feel old to listen to it. Finally listening to Hair, What a Piece of Work is Man. I didn’t know this was Shakespeare when I was young. That verse set to music is superb. Anyway, I took this girl to see Hair at the Aquarius Theatre in Hollywood, sometime in the late 60’s or early 70’s. I wanted her so bad, and she already had a boyfriend with whom she was intimate; I didn’t know that when I took her. Also took her to see the Doors, was reminded of this the other day when I heard Love Me 2 Times. Anyway, big sorrow in that arena. Don’t really want to think about it. Why the hell am I writing this boring piece of information? I forget. Sitting in my box of a bedroom with the a/c on, dog in lap, no car, no friends, no hope. I am thinking, I would not mind going to some place and hearing some live music and people-watch. I lost interest in doing that kind of thing a few times. One of the last ones was, and this was at least 2 years ago, when I still had .08 percent left of Hope, me and Z went to the Farmers Market and there was a little band there, and I was enjoying listening to the music, but Z got into a feeling about how I wasn’t paying any attention to her, so that was the end of that. I give up easy. Ok, so stuck in prison here, and I am feeling more and more hopeless. Maybe if Z gets back before it is too late, I can take a ride down by the beach with the dogs. Ha! Just kidding. More likely, I will likely open a can of stringbeans for the dogs. Well, at least we are not being bombed by ISIS or anti-ISIS, run out of our homes into the desert. Or at least another million horrible things are not happening to me. Yet.
The Retreat, as “A unique and valuable therapeutic experience”, kind of like the Venice May Day Festival tomorrow, as announced by sm. Well maybe i go catch at least one act. Fat chance, I hate Venice. I don’t hate seeing women in their summer clothes, however. But the parking, or lack of it…whatever. Maybe i go scout it out tomorrow morning with the dogs. Don’t count on it bitch.
Getting manic. Maybe the moon going into scorpio. At least, I think it is. I will know tomorrow if sex is dripping off the bright blue sky, and women look at me with lust. I won’t be looking at me except with disgust, I didn’t look that good as a kid, but this old face I really don’t like to see. Or I will know if I can figure out worldy stuff so easily, I cant give an example, but maybe I will experience one tomorrow. Kid and Z got back, in the other room making noise playing some game. I should hang out with them but even if they didn’t have the killer dog with them in there, the one who has bitten all the other dogs, I wouldn’t be out there. Kid is whistling and being loud, he wants me to see that he is alive and he wants me to be a dad, and sadly, I am just a piece of garbage. I should have put more detail into my previous post about going to work today. For example, the data I am pulling out of ancient database; what year was the computer purchased, who in the warehouse input the computer’s info into the datanbase, etc. On the surface, boring crap, but all that datae exists because someone or many someones had something to do with that computer being where I work. Like if I were writing a movie, you would see the guy in Washington putting out a bid, some government bean counter kind of guy, talking in a character actor way to a computer salesman kind of character actor guy, in some sort of interesting exchange that I don’t care to flesh out at the moment and I never will. The black guys in the warehouse getting the pallets of computers, and being black around each other, not your movie type of stereotypical black, but more realistic kind of black, like movie sex is, compared to actual sex in real life (or so I have heard). A nurse walking down the hall, thinking about her relatives in the Philipines, but who knows if that actually is what she is thinking, because unlike Hemingway, I shun people and their experiences. The phillipine nurse trying to use her computer and yet it doesn’t do what she wants it to do. Maybe she is thinking about her childhood in the Phillipines while the computer guy is working on the computer. Maybe I could work in a cameo of the SNL computer guy here. Maybe the computer guy is thinking about how his boss came to work also, on the weekend working overtime, hanging out with his dream team, talking behind our backs about us and plotting how to increase their empire of computers and networks. Maybe the Chinese girlfriend of the boss would slither in, wearing her short skirt, oozing sexuality all over the place, and well, lets leave that alone for another day. Maybe the black janitor who is always polite would be there for some reason. Who gives a shit, because I really don’t have the drive I did when I was young and I just don’t care any more. The younger guys there were talking about starting a reality show about this hospital, but I doubt anything will happen because taking pictures here is forbidden. This kind of thinking helped me survive my childhood, which I guess is a good thing…or not. Lots of fantasy and guessing and creating scenarios. I remembered the other day a Flintstones playset that I had, when I was all alone in the living room of our house in Long Beach, probably before teenagehood. Moving the plastic Fred’s and Wilma’s around the little set that looked like Bedrock. I have no idea what I was making them say. Anyway, just another group of lonely days and nights, set around some points of time in the existence. Anyway, look at these lyrics, how can people write this stuff, it is not the greatest of lyrics, but jeez, it speaks to me.
“Scarlet Begonias”
As I was walkin’ ’round Grosvenor Square
Not a chill to the winter but a nip to the air,
From the other direction, she was calling my eye,
It could be an illusion, but I might as well try, might as well try.
She had rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes.
And I knew without askin’ she was into the blues.
She wore scarlet begonias tucked into her curls,
I knew right away she was not like other girls, other girls.
In the thick of the evening when the dealing got rough,
She was too pat to open and too cool to bluff.
As I picked up my matches and was closing the door,
I had one of those flashes I’d been there before, been there before.
Well, I ain’t always right but I’ve never been wrong.
Seldom turns out the way it does in a song.
Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Well, there ain’t nothing wrong with the way she moves,
Scarlet begonias or a touch of the blues.
And there’s nothing wrong with the look that’s in her eyes,
I had to learn the hard way to let her pass by, let her pass by.
The wind in the willow’s playin’ “Tea for Two”;
The sky was yellow and the sun was blue,
Strangers stoppin’ strangers just to shake their hand,
Everybody’s playing in the heart of gold band, heart of gold band.
Something about the Fire on the Mountain S B version is particularly stirring for me.
I have read the comments on the therapists maintaining a distance from patients. I ‘m not friends with everyone I know. I think Primal Therapists pay a huge personal price for maintaining that distance in order to keep therapy the best it can be for patients. Imagine if one of the therapists meets a person as a patient and that friendship chemistry is there. The therapist has to deny herself/ himself that possibility.
Spent a 1/2 hour reading the thrust and parry. Hmm, I’m not sharp enough to feel embarrassed, hah. 60 years ago I got pissed off, do they still use such vulgarity in Primal circles??; at a fathers and sons hockey game because the ref gave penalties for falling down to the sons when the fathers tripped them, and credit to the fathers team when the sons scored a goal. My adult cousin put his arm around me and said it was sad I had never developed a sense of humour. I chalked that up to one more personal shortcoming not one more transgression against me. I adored this cousin for always doing nice things for me, but here was the unavoidable truth , he despised me like everyone else. After that I always felt hurt around him and never spoke unless spoken to.
It never occured to me that you aquainted bloggers were being humorous, sometimes; and between some of you friends. And that throwing out anger and everything else should be.When in the hell was humour officially approved in the official Handbook of Primal Dictum. hah
I was setting up sound gear for a gig last night, eavesdropping on a conversation involving one erudite self agrandizing gentleman I find trying; I don’t like the phony all important offensive prick and he dislikes me.
His lines and affect were so sweet I was bristling thinking , ” If you only knew what this asshole is really about.” The other, older, guy began relating a story about his life as a young man when he was physically competent. This, ” prick, ” replied, ” My how wonderful it is for you to have such a healthy memory.” The story teller became speechless.
The words seemed genuine, from this ,”pricks,” humanity. I was moved to tears for some unknown reason.
Jack I went to your ,” author,” site but the send function was not working; tried Firefox; Chrome; IE, browsers with same result. I have Stettbacher’s book. He was convicted of sexual offenses and Alice Miller wrote him off. But then towards her final days and with evidence of impaired faculties she denounced the Janovs and Primal in bizarre proportions.
David Hardy, the artiste formerly identified as dvddoodle99. Hard to believe there were 98 dvddoodle’s before me and no user space left for david, davey, davy, nor, davee, ” doodle’s”. My middle kiddo was insistent I use that baptismal nomenclature so she could spot my rants from wherever in the world she happened to be. The poor misguided child likes me so I acquiesced.
David: The site for my last book is:- The self publishing company is AuthorHouse and I believe it is available from Amazon.com. The two other alterantrives are:- !) for me to send you, free of charge, the e-copy of the book if you will supply me with an email address 2) I will send you a hard copy; if, after emailing me that request, you will supply a mailing address. I would be greatful to be renumerated afterwrds for postage
Jack
The site (inadvertently deleted in sending the last comment is:
Jack
WordPress did not like me putting the backward and forward arrow around the site name, BUT it’s feelingtherapyyourself then:- dot com
Jack
Thankyou, Jack . my eaddress: dvddoodle99@eastlink.ca
There’s always a ‘sale’ going on……………….in redundant ideas.
Are you talking about YOUR ideas???? May be you are referring to your/our superstar’s ideas.
If you are talking only about mine, I might suggest that my most redundant idea is that I once thought you were ‘fun’ to work with, in the days before the advent of Gentle Giant (aka “Genital Giant” 🙂 or for you 😦 .
Jack
Jack, et al… Ideas. I have a friend who is defended like a steel wall. Her anger is palpable. Her father is a sober alcohol addict. Her mother abdicated her role as enabler and wet nurse to her father and K took it on at age 6 or 7. She hates her mother shits on her constantly and adores her father. Last night she was telling me a memory of her father bringing home a 3 “, 3lb Porterhouse Steak every Saturday night as his treat. He would make a ceremony of introducing it as that, his 3” 3lb Porterhouse steak. She would sit quietly on his lap while he ate it, knowing she should not even consider asking for a piece. After he consumed the whole thing he would allow her to suck the steak juices from the fat and the bone. She beams with pride when she recalls that story. THat poor man who had such a hard life letting her sit on his tired lap, he owned a grocery store, and the plum, allowing her to suck on the waste before he gave it to the dog.
I could scream, weep for that poor little 6 yr old girl. I have always got along with her now very elderly dad. Professionally I know the family story; he was a drunken, philandering, charismatic, manipulator who impregnated numerous women in the area, married and single, some not very bright. Her mother was the creative brains and stability, behind his financial success, but she stayed in the background because she was embarrassed and wanted people to think highly of her husband.
I would never scratch the scab on my friend’s story because, well, I think why is evident.
I welcome any input if I am missing any way. I can help here. I don’t see it.
I loaned her partner, the Primal Scream, years ago. He was interested. I used to see it on the living room table. It came back never opened I think. Thanks..
David: If your relationship is more than just professional then I feel you need to tell us about that. In any event if K is as “defended as steel” I would suggest there is little you can do. As a friend or lover, you first need to accept her the way she is. From there-on-in, consider if your relationship is worth it.
Jack
Thanks, Jack. Never a professional relationship. I was merely in a circumstance 40 + years ago to know her parents relationship and her father’s behavior. None of them would be aware of that, I had listened again to this story just before commenting. I don’t think I can do anything to help but wondered how other eyes would see it. I can’t even offer a shoulder, the sort that can be interpreted as re-enforcement of her interpretation. I listen pan faced. The most I offer is that I’m sad for her.
Oh I neglected to clarify, K is the partner of a long time friend and former band mate. I have one of those blood hound faces that attracts people to tell me their stories. ha
Professionally and personally I follow the rule, ” First do no harm.” I lucked into this wonderful gift of Primal that makes my life better. I feel bad for those that didn’t.
“I lucked into this wonderful gift of Primal that makes my life better. I feel bad for those that didn’t.” You’re going to feel bad a lot then, because a lot of people didn’t luck into the therapy. Maybe the best way you can help your friend is to keep working on yourself and getting better, becoming an example and inspiration to others and your friend of what the therapy can do. Besides, not everyone wants this therapy, and it’s not necessarily going to work for everyone. I feel it’s up to the individual whether it’s worth it to them to risk the time and energy and do the work to change their life. Sometimes, seconds away or right in an awful feeling, I question whether it’s worth it to face the horrible reality. For me though it always is worth it, eventually. I wouldn’t want to be back there trapped in the feelings that were oppressing me weeks, years and decades ago.
hmm; I’m really not wanting to be a role model. I’m pretty simple. It comes naturally to respect others; I don’t associate with people who hurt others.. My professIonal guidepost, ” unequivocal acceptance, ” was a natural fit for me. I don’t have any need to struggle to try to entice people who are unlikely to be interested in investigating change. Visitors to my home will see several Janov books in obvious places. I don’t judge them.
And so I am unimaginably grateful that I got steered to Social Work and an incredible 1st mentor as a result of my old car imploding. Otherwise I would have made money and never have been given that copy of Primal Scream in 1972. And would have killed myself. It took 14 years to earn the extra money for Primal, , and sold my guitars, to travel 5000 miles to LA. where I an overweight sedentary became mr. cargo mover to live. A series of unplanned circumstances…
In the mean time I was exposed to, ‘mock” therapy and was a volunteer to receive potential patients at the Primal Centers of Nova Scotia.
Reality can be so hard. Who would ever want to face its harshness! Who would ever want to do this therapy! But the ones who do it, know the serenity of finally not running, finally accepting reality.
For 5 ½ years I’ve been mourning the death of my wife. I’m amazed how the crying that I did in the beginning, that hurt so much, barely scratched the surface compared to the depth of loss when I feel it now.
This afternoon I ran into and talked for a while to a younger colleague at work. She is a reclusive, troubled extrovert, can be sensitive, and now that she knows me is surprisingly open and honest. How are you? she asked. I felt like she meant it.
I told her it’s not easy for me knowing that I’m likely putting in only one more summer, only one more field season at work, that all too soon I’m suddenly at this later stage of life where my ‘career’ is over and I move into retirement. Where did the years go so quickly? I want to still be back there. I confided to her that the prospect of retirement is not coming easily to me. I explained that I have low grade persistent anxiety about my unknown, directionless future, anxiety that presents itself as a recurring tightness in my chest and periodic uneasy, asthma-like breathing.
She said, “I think you’re still in mourning. That’s why the prospect of retirement is hard for you.”
I try not to see it myself, so I never thought someone could see it so easily. As soon as she said it, I knew she was right.
After work I got home feeling unusually tired, heavy, and uncomfortably short of breath. I had no energy to attend a meeting I was supposed to be at in the evening. As soon as I sent notice that I wouldn’t be there, I needed to cry.
For 5 ½ years I’ve been chipping away, crying and letting go a little more and a little more. Deeper and deeper I let go of what we once had, and know there is no going back. I feel how pivotal it was to share life, and how alone my life has otherwise been. I bring a towel to my mouth because I feel need for loud expression as I wail and I don’t want to worry the neighbours. I sink into it, louder and more freely, until like a volcano I erupt into a brief spasms of pure in the moment intense feeling and I don’t care who hears it, it is profoundly important to my life to let go all stops and experience this feeling. She is gone and I will never again know the being with her. Not only is it I who wails, but a child in me screams with me at the pure hurt, the unfairness, the outright cruelty to finally have found someone and then have her taken away so soon. It’s too cruel for a child to bear, for a child to have no one. A child would have to shut down to survive.
Such a deep painful truth is such a relief to feel and accept, but I know there’s more.
I feel how important it is to let go, to accept loss so if I’m lucky I can be able to let someone else in…for who they are and not as a replacement to shield me from the loss. I don’t want to hold on to and live in the past.
After the feeling, the band around my chest is gone, the load has lifted from my back and shoulders, my breathing is easy and relaxed, and I feel a little more able to step into my future.
To not keep this to myself, to have you bear witness, helps my healing and growth.
It is amazing what you can do, do and then write about Larry!
So glad you got to know, love and experience the love you and Noreen created together.
To have all that – esp.after nothing – swept away so tragically and way too soon must be unbearable…
ox L.
I’m listening Larry…
I’m wrecked after pushed into feelings by your post. Thank you . I am sad for you.
> David,
> well, the more I hear from you the more I start to like you, as you are good at looking honestly at yourself , which is probably the hardest thing to do for all of us, both for seeing what should change, and for seeing what is really nice about ourselves..
>
> I like your balanced way of responding, so you are right in what you said about me not knowing anything about you at the time of my first response..
>
> it was merely an impression, probably coloured a bit by my fear another angry guy would show up and rant all over the place.
>
> but your presence is actually very refreshing, so I hope you will stay and keep adding your comments!
>
> you are very welcome here, Margaret
I was remembering an apres big group friend I met at Coco’s. His life story was bizarre and though he had made a tremendous recovery he would in times of agoraphobic tension react with a echolaic face rubbing routine . He was a kind, sweet person. I felt so sorry for him; an intelliegent, handsome, personable guy. But this , ” tic,” was offputting to others, and he had really no social group, like me. Remembering him recently and my benevolent kind sorrow for him it suddenly occurrred to me , how fucking arrogant I was, I am; fucked up me feeling sorry for him as if I didn’t have as big a problem, as if I wasn’t just as defective.
> Larry,
> thanks for sharing that.
> M
“To not keep this to myself, to have you bear witness, helps my healing and growth. ” This is also a need of mine, to have someone know my suffering. I have a Primal friend who never says what’s going on with him. He’s sa brilliant since the dawning of humans, flawless Lexicon. That info permeates his conversation. His not sharing which I usually read as his superior not needing to share feeds into my gonna die panic feeling, not as good as, defective…
The primal feelings that I’m slowly more and more succumbing to are childhood aloneness that I had thought were impossible to face. When I come up out of the feeling, you fellow bloggers help me to learn to trust that there really are good, empathetic people out there, unlike my childhood reality. Your existence helps me shift my deeply ingrained perception from one of childhood aloneness on this planet, to one of feeling of connection to good human beings.
Just maybe, if we don’t foul our nest and kill ourselves off first, we might work it out. The following conclusion quoted from the World Happiness Report gives me room to hope. It imagines how to have the kind of world that I think as a child I expected to grow up in.
“There is a common social theme that emerges consistently from the World Happiness Report 2015. At both the individual and national levels, all measures of well-being, including emotions and life evaluations, are strongly influenced by the quality of the surrounding social norms and institutions. These include family and friendships at the individual level, the presence of trust and empathy at the neighborhood and community levels, and power and quality of the over- arching social norms that determine the quality of life within and among nations and generations. When these social factors are well-rooted and readily available, communities and nations are more resilient, and even natural disasters can add strength to the community as it comes together in response.
The challenge is to ensure that policies are designed and delivered in ways that enrich the social fabric, and teach the pleasure and power of empathy to current and future generations. Under the pressures of putting right what is obviously wrong, there is often too little attention paid to building the vital social fabric. Paying greater attention to the levels and sources of subjective well-being has helped us to reach these conclusions, and to recommend making and keeping happiness as a central focus for research and practice.”
I don’t think it is possible to teach empathy. I believe it’s potential is informed by the early memories stored in the subconscious. I believe we can ask the unconscious to share it’s stored information memories but not teachable. I am convinced the adult subconscious shuts out . negative comment.
I am not being flippant when I say I ask my subconscious for the location of misplaced item; lyrics to seldom used tunes….It never fails.
Larry: There is both a reluctance and an incentive for me to respond to this comment of yours. The reluctance stems from the fact that initially we may be mostly in agreement. The incentive arises in me in that I feel (just my perception) that you have not have stated it succinctly, concisely or briefly enough for it to make an impact.
I will take the chance here, in all my arrogance and conceit, to re-state what I feel is the ‘simplicity’ of the our human dilemma. Somewhere along our human evolution, we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’. I know not why, though Bernard Campbell, a Cambridge University professor of Anthropology in England, offered one possibility), .We then became what in psychology is deemed “Neurotic” Freud first coined the word; BUT, I contend, Janov finally defined it. In the simplest sense, this is our problem. Other that Primal Theory, no-one (that I am aware of) seems to have seen a resolution to the problem. Janov has stated over and over again; that until we go back and see the origins of that problem, all else will fail There are many out there seeming to offer a reversal of the dilemma/problem by social, educational or political means. I concur with Janov, none of this is EVER going to work.
Nothing more that an overturning of our defenses (by that magical process of “re-living”); will we ever effectively resolve it. On the individual level, I see only Primal Therapy achieving that. On a global scale I contend (again) only by the abolition of money … that firmly keeps ‘neurosis’ in place.
Jack
You have to admit, Jack, that it is your fantasy that we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’. You have no way to know. It makes more sense that we’ve been neurotic all along, that when we became the human species, we at the same time became a neurotic species. Maybe individuals of many or all intelligent, emotional, social species can become neurotic. It’s likely that our species is the only one that can primal.
Money is a useful tool. What we need to abandon is how we give it the power to rule our decisions, and instead give other factors precedence such as family and community well being.
It’s my impression that most on this blog would agree with you that overturning our defenses is a good thing. No doubt, even on their own insights from Primal Theory can change attitudes toward making better decisions to bring about a happier world.
Larry: No! I do not have to admit “‘that we humans abandoned our real nature” IS my fantasy. If we can cure it (change it) then by definition it’s not natural (our nature).
How long does “all along” constitute? All along through time? or. just from the moment that we become human? As I read Arthur Janov that is not what he believes. Freud apparently felt that way, but Janov argues otherwise and that, to and for me, makes WAY MORE sense. According Janov, as I read him, no other creature turns its young into neurotics. Some domestic animals; principally horses and dogs, can be made neurotic by our human INTERVENTION.
If money is a useful tool then why all the mayhem in the world, with starving children, wars, police brutality, billionaires whilst many go for a lifetime needing the basic necessities?????? If you and I are the lucky ones, able to have some; how come millions are unable to get their hands and this “useful tool”??????
I don’t see overthrowing our defenses as a “good thing” I see it, for me least ways, to achieving a life WORTH LIVING. I would insist a “NECESSITY”
Finally I am not promoting a “happier world” I am promoting a “FULLY FEELING-FULL ONE” Therein is a whole difference.
So! Larry: it seems we disagree.
Jack
It has been part of my pacifying narcotic, the fantasy that we will ever recover that benevolent ” humanity,” ie: that it become the rule rather than the exception. I disagree that neurosis was part of the founding package. The science of brain evolution, as I understand it does not support that idea,
My up close time spent with various domestic and wild non human beings taught me that the human brain does not have exclusive potential for kindness, sadness, grief, mourning or planned revenge, in reaction to their real environment. Even being kind protective parents cross species. The abused ones exhibited some of my neurotic behaviors, subservience, cowering. Others were unpredictably given to striking out without explanation.
Disagreement is fine Jack. It seems though that I was misunderstood on one account. I didn’t mean to imply that neurosis is our natural condition. More and more what makes sense to me is that for as long as there have been humans, there have been at least some neurotic humans, maybe a lot of humans a little bit neurotic. Probably even before then.
I didn’t take you to mean that was a major characteristic of mine. I sort of knew what you were implying. However, just as you implied that I could not be certain of my notion; the very same applies to yours. No problem with that from me either. However, if I read Art Janov correctly, then you are also implying that it is his fantasy also.
Jack
I think you are telling me that Art Janov believes there was a time, in the early stage of our species, when we existed without neuroses, and generations/millennia later our species took on neurosis. If that is what Art Janov believes, then yeah I think he’s wrong.
But I don’t know what he believes. I’m just going by what you tell me. If that is what he believes, it would be interesting to know the reasons why. It is interesting to know the evidence, reasoning, and feeling upon which a belief is based.
Thanks for conversing with me about this, Jack. Not many people want to.
I think I’m in a lonely phase.
Larry: I am not exactly sure just where he mentions this, but if I remember rightly; he gives his reasoning. If I find it I will surely relay it to you to read for yourself. If anyone else knows where he stated it and can give the page number and book title I would appreciate that.
I sincerely hope you are able to get through this debilitating feeling of loneliness. It sounds daunting.
Take great care.
Jack
… “human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It’s how we get our satisfaction. If we can’t connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find — the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about ‘addiction’ altogether, and instead call it ‘bonding.’ A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn’t bond as fully with anything else.
So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection. ”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html
So in the absence of sufficient human connection, I am addicted to work and to this blog. I knew that. It makes sense. I know I need more human connection. That’s the hard part, because in striving for it, I run up against why I gave up in the first place on hoping to get it.
Vicki: Way too complicated. I read some of the article. It’s simpler that that. We only get addicted to “PAIN” killers. It’s pain that we’ll do ANYTHING to get away from. Yes Vicki, lack of connection, especially in early childhood, is painful, BUT keep it to the ‘direct’ cause.
Tom: I feel your conclusions to your observation was flawed; either that or you have a different definition of what constitutes “neurosis”. You were not in these animals heads. Janov defined it very, very simply
Geeze: we love to make things complicated.
Jack
Oh, I took to it be saying just that, that we attach to the pain reliever, whatever it is, the chem narcotics being one. I had a friend who, between bouts of sobriety, used multiple substances but only alcohol would totally impair his functioning, and he used less of that in terms of daily quantity. Stoned on other drugs he worked, maintained personal and social contacts. “Why,” intrigued me.
Thanks for article, Vicki. It is always encouraging to read about a better take about people’s pain. Looks like a good start against just putting people in jail for their habits.
I agree with you Tom, that animals can be neurotic. I have a cat that shows her affection by biting. Never had that in any other pet. Maybe it’s because when at 5 weeks her mother and littermates were killed by the neighborhood big dog, and she cried for days hungry, before being rescued.
That seems remarkably common with cats. Lots of theories as to why. Not likely we’ll ever know.
I agree, Sylvia. In PT, we often think of the lack of connection, disconnection, and inability to bond because we didn’t have those bonds in our families, as they didn’t care how we felt, and were disconnected from themselves and their own pain. But it’s good to see that concept and language in an article specifically about addiction.
And that cause sounds likely for your poor cat, as likely the worst experience she knows.
Just received this from my health mentor Dr. Peter D’Adamo, Connecticut Naturopathic Physician and Scientist. It is composed by Martha, his wife. Her mother, Mary was Russian born.
(Have to find a way to make this about me…. after my wonderful grandfather died, with the inexperience of an 8 year old, I set out to find his replacements, assuming all old people were kind. Being old, they all kept dying on me… david)
Mothering May 9, 2015 Healing, Inspirational, Martha D’Adamo0 Comments
The act of mothering is defined as to “bring up (a child) with care and affection; look after kindly and protectively, sometimes excessively so; to take care of, nurse, protect, tend, raise; to give birth to.
We’ve all come into this world through a mother, that woman we used as a portal for physical life. Some relationships with our mothers are deeply nurturing, close, kindly, and provide the emotional nourishment that allows us to grow into fully formed adults. Other relationships with mother aren’t so fortunate. Where the mother lacked an emotional connection, the child starved emotionally, unable to form that deep connection that allowed for emotional maturity, the ability to love and be loved, to deeply care for self.
Mothers come in many different shapes and sizes, and sometimes they come to us not through birth but through life circumstance, and those who “mother us,” raise us up, and nurture us may be older or younger than us and they may be women or men…or animals. The act of nurturing is not limited to one who brings us into the world, although having that essential first relationship in tact is wonderful. Yet it doesn’t guarantee that we will be emotionally balanced, loved throughout our lives or even happy.
I am very grateful for the mother who brought me into the world. She had strength of character, courage, strength, almost super-human powers at times, and vulnerability. Her given name was Mary, which has numerous meanings, two of which are “my beloved,” and “rebelliousness.” My mother wanted to be a rebel, but had the constraints of seven children, maintaining a household, limited resources, and the emotional inheritance she shared with women of her generation, which was that she had a particular place in society. Near the time of her death, she talked about this, about how she wished for more for herself, yet how thrilled she was that her daughters had the opportunities to accomplish that which she could not.
She also mused on how the tables had turned; once she had cared for us, and now we cared for her as she struggled with the aftermath of a stroke, with I might add, a great sense of dignity and her wicked Irish humor, which sustained her and all of us throughout her life and through her death. She loved that my two daughters, Claudia and Emily, would “nurse” her – bring her tea, read her poems, knit and crochet for her when she couldn’t move her hands, perform for her. It was lovely to witness, and it reinforced in me that mother is not just a noun or a name to call someone; it is a verb—for the act of caring, tending and nurturing another.
I have been so fortunate to have been mothered by many and to have mothered many, most particularly my daughters, who actually taught me how to be a mother, and they continue to do so every day.
I honor Mary, my sisters and sisters-in-law, mothers-in-law, my dear friend, Regina, my daughters, my husband, Peter (yes, men can mother! And some of them do it very well.) My puppiesJ and all of those throughout my life who gave me the opportunity to love and be loved, to nurture, and to grow.
Happy Mother’s Day
Hi Vicki
I thought it was a great article. Incredible where you dig them out of.
As you know, my primary gripe about my life is that I didn’t get bonded to my mum, and possibly even to my dad. I often thought it was/is remarkable that I didn’t end up on drugs, or commit suicide. The loneliness that I endured as an immigrant teenager both in Europe and then Australia, was excruciating. I never realised till lately, that “perhaps” it may have originated much earlier. My mum was 18 when she had me. She fell pregnant soon after the war, when she was only 17. And then moved to Romania with my dad, thereby not having the supoport of her mum.
I agree with the content of the article. If you are not connected or bonded to people around you, you are doomed to be in PAIN.
See you soon.
Tom
When my friend’s kids’ hamster died, their German Shepherd, who used to carry the little rodent all over the neighborhood, in her mouth, laid by his cage and mourned for about a week. My male 5 year old Valley bull dog mothered 3 abandoned kittens, including letting them dry nurse on him. He had been badly physically abused before I adopted him; rescued from a stoning by a group of Reform Baptist church goers one Sunday, having been abandoned by a military family posted out, he was eating compost. Obviously they feel; understand human language and human intentions towards them.So they,too, can be injured. Not born neurotic.
When I began with horses, I learned it was smart to make friends with them; and that the really intelligent ones demanded being consulted not ordered about like idiots. Cats also demand that. A friend, who is a Reiki Master, tells me cats will not allow themselves to be touched by people who they sense want to overpower their free will. She says she trusted me because her cats and her Rottweilers accepted me, exposed their bellies to me, soliciting touch. If I could speak canine and feline I’d try to find out what’s really going on. Of course they might lie…. heh
David: Of course, they couldn’t lie … feeling-full creature have no need to. Only neurotics find reasons to lie … in order that …….
Jack
My shallow foray into humor,again Jack “… they might lie.”. Exactly, they are as they are. I watched a big old momma cow last Spring urge a baby goat all the way across the pasture to his wailing momma. He moved grudgingly. She gently nudged him along with her huge horns, and with her nose pushed him under the fence back into the goat paddock to his mother. She uttered one MOO before returning to her herd. From age 11 – 17 we lived in the bush, April to end November. The wild beings there provided an amazing education. A few orphans, small and big animals, lived with us in our cabin until ready to go on their own.
David: It’s all a matter of what we consider a “lie” to be. This, for me, is the inevitable ambiguity of words. Animals as I sense it, don’t have words; just feelings that they express … appropriately … UNLESS there is some intervention on the part of us neurotic (unfeeling-full) humans.
Jack
I wish I could learn their languages as well as they do English. My eavesdropping Valley Bull dog has done things like go fetch a book I mentioned in conversation with another human. Mind you he didn’t go to the bookshelf and choose it by title, rather by me saying I left it on my night stand. So he heard ,”my book,” and ,” nightstand,” but had to deduce it was in our bedroom and that I wanted it. I volunteer on an Organic/ Byodynamic Farm. An intact 5 year old bull who was a buddy gored the thumb web on my left hand. I swear he showed sorrow when I showed him the bloody wound after I stopped cursing at him. Most would say I was a fool being in a pen with an intact adult bull. I was repairing his head lock, he stuck his head in and tried to look up to see what I was doing and to lick my salty sweaty arm.
> Sylvia,
> that poor cat!
> good she had you to understand her and see it the right way.
> maybe feeeling safe some of her true pain was allowed to come out.
> so good to imagine she did not get hit or something for showing her affection in her own way..
>
> my cat used to show hers in her funny own particular way, by running up to me specially after having enjoyed her meal, to sharpen her claws in my sneakers, while I was wearing them..
>
> it was clearly gratitude and affection, she sometimes did it completely out of the blue, without food, just in a spur of the moment impulse to show her warm feelings and appreciation to me..
>
> still miss her a lot..
> M
Thanks for posting this article Vicki. I like and agree with the message. I know I was desperate for connection all along – just used food as an accessible refuge for many years – as the emptiness was too much.
Hi Larry and Jack
Growing up, I always had a dog. When I got a bit older, I had pigeons.
Having observed those animals and pigeons through a number of generations, my take is that ” neurosis” as you guys put it, is inherent in every species, be it human, dogs, pigeons or fish.
As all species change over time for all sorts of reasons, part of a survival mechanism is in fact “neurosis”. if we were not able to become Neurotic, we would’ve died out long ago. And so would’ve dogs, pigeons, fish etc.
So, in my opinion, neurosis is good.
Tom
How did your furry and feathery friends exhibit their neuroses ?? What caused them ?? You were their caretaker ??
JACK ???
David: You sound just like my mother. She would just blurt out my name … all I was left with was:- is she about to tell me something?????????? OR …. is something I wrote causing an eruption within you???????????????????????????????????? :O .
Jack
Through my Naturopathic Association I received an invite to participate in a 7 Day seminar on, “Anxiety, Causes and Cures.” It finished yesterday and I looked in on the synopsis today. Except for the recommendation that patients be advised to find a nourishing diet and take regular, the remainder was either amusing or infuriating.
I read Tom’s comment and I was inviting your esteemed response, as in, ” I wanna hear how Jack responds to this bit of illuminative edification.” I had a huge grin on my face, and my gut is sore from laughing answering you now. david
Quote from “The Primal Scream” Chapter “The Problem” Page 20
“Genius that he was, Freud bequeathed us two most unfortunate notions which we have taken as gospel truth. One is that there is no beginnings to neurosis–that in other words, to be born a member of the human race is to be born neurotic. The other is that the person with the strongest defense system is necessarily the one who can best function in society”.
My dictionary gives the definition of neurosis as:- “a nervous disorder” If we wish argue the meaning of the word … that’s anogther matter. I take it from reading Larry’s comment that he does not consider it a ‘dis-order’. From Tom’s comment that “neurosis” is just some transient re-action. From David that he gets a great laugh from it all.
Mine, for what it is worth, is that neurosis is:- “The pathology of feelings” In other words that the EXPRESSION of feelings are dead. The feeling sensations keeps reverberating around in our bodies … causing any number of UN-NATURAL behaviors and/or ingestions that are detrimental to ones health.
Of course, I didn’t invent this all on my own … It’s how I read Arthur Janov. Who knows???? Maybe my reading is way off.
Jack
In your quote from the Primal Scream there is nothing contrary to what I’ve been saying. How you get the notion that I don’t consider neurosis a disorder? Your idea that “Somewhere along our human evolution, we humans abandoned our real ‘NATURE’.” is your invention. What the quote you presented from the Primal Scream says to me is that we aren’t born neurotic, which I and probably everyone on this blog agrees completely with.
Larry: Instead of asking me the question “How you get the notion that I don’t consider neurosis a disorder” clarify for me when, how, where or why we became neurotic, Then I would see what it is that you consider is “The Problem” that Janov was writing about.
Should you just prefer me to answer your question then I extrapolated (maybe wrongly) from you writing:- “It makes more sense that we’ve been neurotic all along, that when we became the human species, we at the same time became a neurotic species.” It was further seen by me that you were inferring when you wrote “What the quote you presented from the Primal Scream says to me is that we ‘AREN’T BORN NEUROTIC’, which I and probably everyone on this blog agrees ” Emphases mine.
As I read Arthur Janov (again maybe wrongly) he is stating that somewhere in our evolution WE BECAME NEUROTIC. It is my contention, purely mine, that that occurred some time between 20,000 to 30,000 year ago … assuming that we humans have been in our present biologic form for roughly 100,000 years.
So yes I do see a contradiction from your earlier comment to what I am now reading in THIS comment. Granted, I used the phrase “abandoned our nature”.
If indeed you do see it as a disorder, AND you also see that we became neurotic at the onset of becoming human. I can only assume that you see the human race as defective from the onset. Maybe your studies in biology corroborate that notion. As I stated, it would be clearer to me if you were to state what being human means relative to neurosis.
Jack
Jack I was not laughing at neurosis, or the concept of neurosis; I realize we do not know each other so I should not be so presumptive to think another should know my character including my sense of humor. I was anticipating how you might respond to Tom’s take on neurosis. I attributed to you an, ” Oh my dog, what next,” expletive. And that tickled my sense of humor, and that led to my, ” Jack???” as in go get him Jack. I believe you were the best to respond to Tom. All thought and said with respect for you and the, emotional self. I don’t use sarcasm. Old age has made me rather witty though. I don’t worry much any more about acting silly.
After reading the messages you write to folks on the blog I conclude that I like who you are, strong in what you believe, up front, and non vindictive.
I believe at union of sperm and egg we are destined to arrive in this reality untarnished perfection. I believe that injury can happen prior to birth. I believe that we all have a right to love, care, and respect just by getting born. When that is not forthcoming I believe the resulting assaults means our reality has to become altered to survive; to the rescue, our childhood savior, repression; and, the result, neurosis.. If that band aid is not sufficient to salve the pain, psychosis.
I ‘m 69 years old. I survived dire poverty, physical, verbal, and sexual abuse; and several attempts by my mother to kill me. She complicated that by telling me her horror stories of abuse, further cutting me off from feelings. My father was a brilliant, gifted, mega talented man who could not remember we needed wood for heat, and food in the pantry. I had a wonderful but very elderly live in grandfather. He died when I was 8. There was no positive social set to offset the shit. I aced music festivals and oratory competitions. That just got the shit kicked out of me by age mates. I started a rock band, but knew I was no good at it regardless of what was said.
Perhaps out of my own need, During my Social Work practice I didn’t know how to help everyone referred to me but I could at least love and unconditionally accept them, per their birthright. Living and working in a small rural area you better not be a phony.
I have received cards and letters from children, youth, and old geezers like us saying that was how I made them feel. One girl wrote that I was like a mother duck, taught her to swim and kept watch while she achieved independence. A once enormously suicidal person wrote that she was stunned when I offered to sit with her so she didn’t have to die alone if she really believed she needed to die. Also that I was the only male,” helper person that didn’t screw, ” her.
I received a fair bit of criticism from some colleagues who thought I used people with the, ” respect gig, ” because I was needy. I never needed however to move in their ranks. I only once ever answered that slander. I said, and I still believe it true, I didn’t need to believe that I was all that; didn’t solicit or feel gratified by all of the adoration, but the youth I worked with did. It made them feel worthwhile that someone they construed as being all that always had time for them and kept their best interests front and center. Sometimes the best I ever did was to provoke a kid by caring to tell me off so they could experience standing up for themselves; and learn that you can’t lose a friend by doing that.
And I always taught them to master chop sticks. I’m proud of that sneaky bit.
My self image, I’m the ugly faced, fat, liar, stupid, kid that nobody wants as a friend or to dance with, just as my mother said. And when I believe that someone is going to see that, I get fucking terrified.
As I was writing this the boyhood friend I have for 59 years mourned since age 10 when he moved away, came to visit, unannounced. I hadn’t seen him for 34 years, June 27, 1981; the day my 4 year old daughter died. His 3 year old son was also in hospital.
He was telling his wife about what a brilliant talented kid I’d been. I wanted him to shut up because it was a lie and him lying meant he was never my friend. Phony. His mom was an English war bride; very erudite. Briefly, I once heard him during a play visit, in a conversation with her, he was crying, saying, ” David’s my best friend.” She answered, ” You’re not friends with him, we just feel sorry for those kind of people.”
hurts like hell, david
Chapter 154 , Page 503……
david
David: Wow … I liked your comment, and particularly what you wrote about me. That made me feel real good.
As for your humor, I needed to read your comment twice before I got into the gist of it. My kind of humor is somewhat more primative. Eg. “Oh! my god, what the fuck next”, but then I came from that hell hole in the dreary industrial north of England, where poverty was the norm, and primative humor is the only way out. I actually didn’t think you were laughing at me, but it wouldn’t have mattered even if you were.
You said a great deal in this comment about yourself and your child-hood. I found it very interesting.
I don’t know you either David, but to tell you a little about myself I am an 82 going on 83 year old old gay man … more arragant and conceited than most, who loves blogging and saying his/my ‘party piece’. I love people (though few love me … not surprisingly). I love animals, but I am utterly stupid when it comes to plants and languages, and that incluides my own … English.
There’s more of the ugly about me and quite a bit of the bad about me, but for the life of me I can’t remember the good cos, the short term memory is on the blink. Ah well!!!
Jack
Here’s one for the books Jack, the Primal Books that is, ha!! I had not looked at your blog photo with my glasses on until yesterday. If that is you at 82-83, holy shit, you’ve preserved incredibly well. Anyhow, without glasses you looked like my male nemesis prototype, slim faced handsome, cocky, jocular grin, the face of that popular, athletic, snotty guy(s) that shit all over me and got the girl. And so that old demon on my shoulder condemned you. Man how that shit fucks up our lives and narrows the field of meeting interesting people. Or as my past wife choices show also allowed me to naively let some unsavory people fly under my spidey sense and into my intimate space.
I sometimes wish I had a nasty bone i my body but I don’t; at times my worst fault. I’m sure I can come off as arrogant/opinionated. If that means sticking to my values and facts I accept, I guess I am. david
David: I have to admit that, that picture was taken some 5 years ago. But in all conceit I do feel I look good for my age. It’s my mouth and my writing that put most people off … and oh! … the farts.
Jack
I began coloring my hair when it went white. I stopped last fall when my stylist said how much she liked white hair; and now even the 50 somethings treat me like I’m irrelevant old guy, call me dear and hon in stores, and not with studly intent…My neighbor offered to carry my garbage today. I may go back to being dark blonde again…
Hi Jack, Larry and the new kid on the block, David.
I disagree with all of you.
And the reason is that you all assume/presume that our beginning was a blessed one, that we started off somehow in a state of bliss.
Far be it from the truth, Look at people with all sorts of genetic disabilities. Look at people with mental disabilities. Cerebral palsy, autism etc, etc, the list is endless.
Look at a baby born right now in Nepal. Or a baby born in Nigeria, or North Korea, where babies/toddlers die of starvation.
Where was their blissful beginning? Did they all have terrible parents? Un-feeling mothers and dads? I don’t think so.
I think that besides the “nurture and or nature” discussion, ( which we are not having here, at the moment) there is the ” circumstance” to your beginning.
Were you born in Africa a couple of hundred years ago, when your tribal leader sold you off into slavery? Did mummy and daddy not love you then?
Or were you kidnapped by people for various nefarious reasons?
I think, that you need to put that into the equation, besides how was your beginning and birth. You could’ve the best mum who did everything right during your gestation, and who went on to give you the best birth on this planet. But if all other things/circumstances don’t come your way, you are there to face a life of PAIN.
By my discourse here, I am not marginalising Primal Theory nor Therapy. It’s the best. It resonated with me, as it did with most of you. That’s why I upped and went to LA, 7500 miles from Sydney, taking my family with me, uprooting all of us.
On a more personal note, Jack, you are unique. In my mind, you are a true Primal Warrior. Keep it up. I like that you don’t take anything lying down.
You Larry, when you write, as I said many times before, you take me to an other place. I can always feel you when you write.
And last, but not least, the new kid on the blog, DAVID. Remarkable. Coming out from your corner and barring yourself in front of all these peons. Congratulations. Neither you dad nor your mum have any idea what they missed out on. All the people that you touched through your work, were very lucky. You were indeed a blessing to them.
Now that I got this off my chest, I have to address my demons and write to you about them.
Sleep well, all of you.
Tom
I agree with what you are saying, Tom. It is a mystery to me what I said that you disagree with. I suspect I’m being misread.
I look forward to hearing from you. Glad you’re still there.
Not just to add another oar in the water, Larry; but regardless what you meant to say I interpreted it as you saying you believed we are born neurotic; I read Tom as saying the same about non human animals. There’s some education involved there on brain structure that informs the lack of validity of that assertion.
I know because of my conversational writing style I am not easy to correctly read at times, too; but somehow, maybe just the way you write, it reads as if you flip flop several times on the same topic., from reply to reply. Probably just me.
That is interesting David. Actually I also perceive you to flip flop.
I guess it irks me if I feel words and ideas are attributed to me that aren’t mine. I guess it makes me feel misunderstood. I grew up misunderstood, so it bothers me when people misinterpret who I am and portray me as someone who I’m not. When it happens in the present I try to let it go, except for people who are close to me. My interaction with Jack yesterday didn’t get anywhere except to fill my loneliness, The interaction with him was pretty much the only significant interaction I had all day.
On the neurosis discussion, I assumed that the meaning of what I was writing was obvious and I didn’t go into detail, but looking back I can see where some of my words could be taken in different ways. So even though it feels like a lot of work to try to clear up a misunderstanding of me, I’ll try again just because I don’t like being misunderstood,
Like others have said here, I feel we aren’t the only species who exhibits neurotic symptoms. I see that all of us, humans and other species, aren’t born automatically neurotic as if by design. We are designed to survive, and to survive optimally we are designed with potential to be healthy. Whatever species we are, I see that If we got all the love, caring and nourishment that we needed, there would be no neurosis, and vice-versa, neurosis sets in if and when our reality of not getting what we need becomes too painful.
I believe that the more behaviourally and socially complex the animal species is especially in the upbringing and care of the offspring, the more the possibility for something to go wrong and for deprivation and neurosis to set in. I believe there were neurotic individuals in our non-human ancestors and in our human ancestors, because I don’t believe they all had perfect childhoods where all their needs were met. Deprivation could even begin in the womb, for instance if the mother is undernourished. I feel certain that at least some of our early ancestors were deprived of at least some of their needs and grew up neurotic because of it.
Human childhood, a time of exploration, learning and development is exceptionally long. There is lots of time for something to go wrong, for deprivation to happen before the person becomes a fully formed adult able to take care of themself. The human being, and especially the human brain, is incredibly complex. The more complex something is, the more opportunity there is for something to go wrong. I don’t see how our ancestors brains and their childhood development would be more robust than ours. I don’t see how our early ancestors all lived in perfect conditions that gave all of them perfect childhoods where they got all that they needed. I believe there was sometimes deprivation in the time of our early human ancestors just as there is in our time. Some mothers are better at mothering and others are bad at it no matter what time you live in.
I see that we are a species capable of deep empathy toward one another. We had to develop that sensitivity toward one another to get along and co-operate together in groups. If we hadn’t, we wouldn’t be here. We are especially vulnerable without each other. We are especially vulnerable to deprivation. I see that neurosis has always been our curse when our needs haven’t been met, since the beginning of human beings and even before. I guess that is my sticking point with Jack. He feels that neurosis set in 20 – 30 millennia ago. I’m not saying his is wrong. I’m presenting a different view, that we’ve always been susceptible to neurosis, just like we’ve always been susceptible to infection and disease. I’m not saying that we are automatically born neurotic, but that we have always been susceptible to becoming neurotic if our needs aren’t met.
I suspect that probably when we became large in number, when there were too many to feed by hunting and foraging and we leaned toward domesticating plants and animals to feed ourselves, at time when studies reveal we were undernourished, when we formed large permanent settlements and rigid social hierarchies and a less-well-off underclass of oppressed people doing laborious, tedious, repetitive agricultural work, might have been a time that gave rise to a culture and conditions that fostered neurosis and increased frequency of neurotic individuals in human populations.
Just by way of a change of subject, I feel is perhaps very relavant … especially in view of Larry’s comment (May 10 @ 11:16 am).
He commented, and I quote:- “I guess it irks me if I feel words and ideas are attributed to me that aren’t mine. I guess it makes me feel misunderstood. I grew up misunderstood, so it bothers me when people misinterpret …….”. I too as a child felt very misunderstood especially by my ‘daddy’. However. I did get what I felt was understanding from ‘my Granny’, and to some lesser extent by my mother. I spite of that, I still had this urge to be understood by my ‘daddy’ and struggled for it. It did seem to me that my bother (the one that has just died) got all my father’s attention; mainly because he was into my father’s sport (Rugby League). I hated it and saw little point of all those grown men running around in short pants trying to get a mis-shaped ball into the opposing team’s goal area. For all my struggles it did not occur to me then, to become a ‘Ruby fan’.
In my 30 some years of my therapy I have felt and cried a great deal about wanting ‘daddy’s love and understanding. Such that now I care little if I am misunderstood … with the exception of those I feel real close to. my Jimbo, my nephews, some nieces and my remaining sisters. There is no-one posting on this blog I feel that close to; so! in that sense, I no longer desire that I am understood. Craving for it, for me, is to contiue with that old struggle. I am delighted that I have reached this stage in my therapy.
So why am I posting this comment. For the most part, I wish to show that it is possible to trancend being misunderstood. However for those that never got any understanding; perhaps even from friends … it must be incredibly hard to go through all that. I was lucky … BUT I do feel it is doable/feelable.
Jack
Any species can be injured emotionally. But if we accept the premise that neurosis involves painful memories in our subconscious where the worst are fortified against conscious recall by the process of repression, from where they direct our behavior then the brain involved must have evolved to the point it has conscious and unconscious/subconscious, ” compartments.” I have lived with wild and domestic animals, companion and farm. Ritualistically abused I have seen fearful beings, some who cower, some who lash out. I have not seen planned revenge or manipulation.
Tom: It’s fine by me that you disagree with me, but when you wrote “you all assume/presume that our beginning was a blessed one, that we started off somehow in a state of bliss.”, I cannot speak for the others, but for me I do NOT feel that our human beginnings were a state of “bliss”.
My assumption is that it was a state of ‘feeling-full-ness’. A state of bliss is something, I feel, can only be transient. For me, that state happens when I fall in love, when I have a very exciting experience, go to a very, very beautiful location, and sometimes in the presence of an adorable child or animal. There maybe others, but off hand I can’t think of them.
Just to elaborate on how I assume our beginnings occurred:- I feel that it took quite some millennium to transition from the monkey (or whatever we were) to our present biological state. Even though since then, there may have been some minor biological changes.
However I do also feel very strongly that some 20 to 30 millennium ago there was an ‘relatively’ abrupt change that took place, due perhaps to us leaving the then current environment (my feeling the tropics), and venturing into colder ones. That necessitated an adaptation to this new location and it is there that I feel (solely my feeling) it precipitated the advent of neurosis in that there was some neglect to the NEEDS of our young.
From there-on-in a chain reaction was set in whereby we now became viciously territorial and persisted in anger to the point of violence, and that state of being has remained ever since.
Since neurosis (as I see it) became the ‘modus operandi’ by those humans in the colder environments they inflicted it upon all other humans they came in contact with and that included those that stayed in their/our tropical regions.
Of course, all this is MY reasoning’s, opinions, ideas or whatever. I have no proof, nor do I feel it will ever be provable. It will forever remain speculative at best.
On reflection; on making this comment … who am I trying to convince? Maybe daddy OR, could be myself. Just another crazy aspect of me.
Jack
The,” Primal,” beginning was still absolute perfect potential. Injury can occur in utero; and many brain injuries occur just prior to or during birth. We can certainly emerge from the vaginal canal injured, emotionally, mentally, developmentally and physically. Very briefly, the method used by the Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential to allow brain injury to heal, one I must add I have personal professional experience with, is based on beginning at the developmental point that the injured child’s brain passes all competency tests. Ie: it is fruitless to reteach a 10 year old to read if he is left spastic by the brain injury. Only because I do not know who knows what about competency development; there is a term , encephalocaudal sequencing of development, defined, everything starts in the brain, crawling, rolling, talking and moreover one skill is built on the other. So they challenge the brain by mimicking every thing the child went through to having arrived at becoming the healthy normally functioning 10 year old he was before the injury. Not unlike Primal Theory and the systematic resolution of pain , as I understand it, in order to achieve sustained change. I recall some of the times I got all thrilled ,hyped up, by feeling something out of sequence only to crash into feelings of further proof of me being a failure when change didn’t hold beyond a few weeks.
I have watched the Institutes method reinstate all of the skills, a healthy brain, as existed before the brain injury, whether sustained in utero, during delivery, or after birth, nerve blindness, deafness, muteness, intellectual handicap, cerebral palsied, ADDHD, Autism, one a veritable vegetable neurologically, following a drowning.
However I have never seen that brilliant method change hair color, make straight hair curly, an Aussie child emerge a Russian speaker, a Greek child become genetically Japanese.
So I gather that only injuries can be reversed. Injuries are something that happen to us not part of our innate structure.
Hi Margaret
Haven’t seen you on the blog lately. Are you OK?
Tom
> dear Tom,
> thank you for caring enough to ask, that really means much to me and actually triggered me.
>
> I have had a very hard time.
> specially the first two weeks after losing my cat were so painful.
> the feelings that came up were so much worse than anything I felt before, this was the first time it felt like pure and agonizing pain. before old feelings always had a taste of relief to them, of finally things falling into place, which kind of overruled the old grief, turning it into healing.
>
> the feelings triggered by having to let go my dear cat, were nothing but pain.
> am crying while writing this.
>
> they are in the present, and they are dealing with the horrible finality of death, of losing something so very precious, the unique presence of one particular fellow and very dear companion I shared my life with for the last ten years.
> I have always felt so very protective about her, which of course made it all the more painful to work through the trauma of the whole episod of having to agree with the decision and trying to make the goodbye ok.
>
> so much sadness.
>
> at the same time I had to deal with feeling let down and hurt by someone I expected more support of, , and had to try and deal with tose feelings and that situation as well as I could..
> tried to avoid a struggle that might cause me more hurt, and managed to reach out to someone else.
>
>
> I am still working my way through this, got good help from Gretchen and Barry , .
>
> , but don’t want to go into this here.
>
> I know I have not been hurt intentionally, but I feel definitely hurt, as also after reaching out while already feeling very bad, I felt more hurt by the response, so my only healthy reaction seeemed to get out of the situation as much as possible.
>
> all the pain is slowly getting less intense though there is still a lot of it right under the surface, which can be easily triggered again, by for example just talking about my cat and mentioning one of her endearing and sometimes very funny behaviors..
>
>
> slowly I am picking up my life again, am in touch with a lady with two cats with kittens, will visit them soon, and gradually work again on prparing my statistics exam next month..
>
> so well, under the
> the circumstances I feel I am making the best of things, but still carry a lot of sadness around for the moment.
>
> won’t be at the retreat, but still feel very connnected with a number of members from the primal community.
>
> M
Glad to hear you Margaret. I feel your description of the agonizing pain of loss. The finality is so hard to accept. It’s so huge. If it’s any help though, I find that a little at a time it can be let in.
10 years with Molimet – that is amazing Margaret. She would have loved every minute too.
Must be so hard to say good-bye…
ox L.
hurtin’, buddy. nothing new. fuck mother’s day.
not just because my bitch mother died just a tiny bit early in my life, but because the minute i start listening to music and give myself just the tiniest of tears and/or pleasure, maybe i can make it through the next week, or even the day. The minute i start, z says we going out to eat for mothers day, even though the kid took her yesterday and did that, even though the old dog’s pain has taken a new turn, and he cant be left alone at all, so lets find an outside cafe on mothers day so i can bring the dog and then drive down to long beach to z’s mother’s cemetary, hours and hours in the car with the stupid fucking dog, and now i cant get overtime and now the fucking secret society masons at work have bent me over backwards and shot it up my butthole, which may be fine for the gay community, but it reminds me too much of an early assault, and chest pains coming all the time now, fuck this shit baby. goodness gracious.
I’m glad you’re able to ignore all the other stuff happening on the blog and say what you need to.
> well, animals do sometimes ‘lie’ and have their own kinds of ‘vocabulary’.
>
> crows so far are known to have at least 50 different sounds, which clearly stand for different things.
>
> and occasionally one ‘smart’ for
>
> row intentionally uses the sound for ‘alarm’ to make the other crows fly away, when he spots a ymiie piece of food. by making g
> the alarm sound he can safely eat it all by himself, or herself..
>
> those kinds of behaviour are also spotted in other species.
>
> some behaviours are part of the genetic imprint, like birds pretending to have a broken wing to make predators follow them instead of finding the nest with the young.
>
> one of my former cats used to put up a big show when laying on the table, ‘accidentally’ near the part of the b
> table set up for breakfast, with a nice slice of ham or cheese.
>
> she would start yawning theatrically and then start stretching ‘casually’ to then gagain ‘accidentally’ stretch one of her paws right up to the yummie piece of food, and then fast as lightning claw it away from the tray and run off with it..
>
> it was very funny to watch, and he knew very well he was supposed to stay off that part of the table, haha, but his show was good enough to let him get away with it a few times!
>
> M
During a trip into the bush, we, our bunch, heard animal noises and upon investigating we watched a group of crows holding ceremony for a dead crow. They walked around the body making sounds we hadn’t heard from crows. When they finished they left.
> David,
> the few occasions I (almost) stepped on my cat’s tail, or toes, always lifting my foot in time warned by her loud scream of alarm, the cat always noticed I felt very distressed about it, and ran up to me while I was saying sorry to her, to reassure me by rubbing against my legs, clearly to let me know she knew it was just an acccident and no need to feel bad about it!
>
> there are so many many ways all animals communicate, with each other, their own specie
> es, but also with other species including us humans, which I think they often consider a bit thick or dumb..
>
>
I believe that completely. My now ex wife mocked me for apologizing to the cats and dogs if I accidentally stepped on a tail or bumped into them.
Wow, the blog has been so active I can hardly keep up. I think the origin of neurosis for us as a
species will remain speculation. I’m sure that wild animals can become neurotic but I would think that would have to effect their ability to survive and reproduce, and so they probably wouldn’t be around.
Maybe in past centuries some of us wouldn’t have survived due to our neuroses. We would have
maybe died during birth along with our mothers, or have been more susceptible to childhood illnesses etc.
Being neurotic doesn’t seem to have effected
our “success” as a species. Success meaning we reproduce and pass our genes on to the
next generation. Evolution works at the population level and doesn’t have much to do with
the “quality” of anyone’s life. We compete well with other species, too well.
Modern civilization has maybe changed the equation as medicine can keep us alive even being
neurotic. Maybe someday primal therapy and theory can be embraced to improve more people’s lives and reduce the craziness in the world.
Phil
Is there evidence that other species have the brain structure necessary to permit neurosis,; ie: a subconscious, Phil ?
David, Other species can exhibit deviated behaviors which, to me, indicates neurosis. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 06:20:00 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
,” deviated behaviors, ” what examples come to mind, Phil?
David, I think this is easily seen with some of our pets which have been abused, although I think domesticated animals might already be somewhat neurotic in that they have lost their ability to live in the wild. But dogs, on the other hand, seem to have evolved to live with us. I think abnormal dog behavior can be observed. For neurotic dogs I’m thinking of ones which are very skittish and leery of contact, due to having been beaten by their owners. I assume that wild animals which lose their mothers will be neurotic. Experiments done with rats taken from the mothers shows them to be different (neurotic) because they weren’t licked etc. by the mothers. These are rats in cages and maybe not in a good environment but I think it does show something. Animal neurosis doesn’t have to exactly correspond to human neurosis. Higher mammals all have similar brains to us, although lacking expanded areas where higher thinking takes place. Neurotic animals behave differently than non-neurotic ones is what I suppose. They don’t relate to others of their species as they should. Can’t do much about it I think. We have enough to worry about with our own traumas. If the human population could heal I think that would go a long way in helping both our domesticated animals and wild ones which share the world with us. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:07:28 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Barbarous maternal deprivation experiments with Chimps clearly showed they developed Failure to Thrive Syndrome symptoms, pining, depression; began relating to inanimate objects, strangers, but not their mothers when reunited. It’s believed that proximity releases the pain of the original separation.
David, It sounds like those chimps in the experiments you mention had good mothers and when reunited with them after the traumas inflicted were able to “primal” it. That’s my interpretation. There was no need to organize a chimp retreat. What do you think? Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:58:12 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
No, Phil, like human babies so deprived that they develop Failure to Thrive Syndrome to survive the pain of emotional needs not being met, the damage was permanent. The conventional treatment is to find alternate caretakers for those children. Placing them back with birth parents after their health and development normalized resulted in , ” failure,” resuming.
Art wrote about, ” primaling, ” Rick , once, when he was a toddler.
I could walk onto a pediatric ward and go to the Failure to Thrive child without being introduced.. The injury was written on their faces.
I wonder among animals if their are examples of fathers having a role in the rearing of the young. It seems to me we really need both parents, and having a village helps too. Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:07:28 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
My male Valley Bull raised orphaned kittens; washed them let them dry nurse him, gathered into himself to sleep.
David. That’s interesting and unusual. Those were lucky kittens! So, you let your dog take responsibility there and didn’t chip in? Phil Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:46:14 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
According to a recent APTN documentary it’s not so unusual. My Bull buddy, Max, was badly abused by stoning at the hands of a group on their way to church. He was brilliant intellectually, had an astounding receptive vocabulary,and was a kind pacifist to a fault. If his Shih tzu brother got hurt rough housing, Max would back off until high strung aggressive Jake calmed down and then very clearly apologized. His face showed concern. My first dog pal, Rex, a bull shepherd mix jumped into a fast moving current emptying into the Minas Basin to rescue an injured red fox. Once ashore the fox confronted Rex. Rex circled him, lunged, firmly grasped the fox’s tail and held his hind feet off of the ground until my father could secure the injured fox. No aggression. He kept vigil at the fox’s cage until his leg was healed and he was released. An orphaned fawn we raised 7 months and then placed on a sanctuary, traveled about 40 miles to come back home. One morning there he was curled up in the porch with Rex.
Out of the spirit of being honest, Max would run to the door, and , ” Woof,” and when Jake went to investigate the cause for the ado, Max would run back and steal some of Jake’s food. And ,I once pretended to be hurt,on a bush walk to see how they might respond , and they didn’t give a shit… hah !
Animals in the wild were video documented responding to the distress cries of cross species babies. Wolves are known to be incredibly developed in parenting.
I recommend, ” Never Cry Wolf,” by Farley Mowat.. It made me weap, the , ” humanity,” of wolves.
When we first began living in the bush my mother was afraid. My father said, ” The only animals to fear were the ones who walked on two legs and any others they domesticated.”
Oh I was the guy who found them, Phil, brought them home and initially bedded them down on my bed with hot water bottle and a key wind clock to simulate a momma’s body warmth and heart beat. They had to be fed unpasteurized sheep’s milk with an eye dropper with a soft pipet. Old Max stood guard and when they went to the floor he took over the mothering. Well I did prepare the meals. I never felt comfortable letting Max use sharp knives and appliances. I know, I know, I’m a HELICOPTER PARENT, with a RESCUER OBSESSIVE NEUROSIS.. I detest stock phrases but, ” My Bad!!”
During my rural social work career I probably rescued and adopted out well in excess of 100 dogs and cats, mostly abandoned by military families posted out at the end of the school years. Favorite drop off method, as diagnosed by my Vet friend, throwing out of or off of moving vehicles, depending on the size of the poor dears.
I developed an even stronger assuredness for the validity of my practice of Homeopathy, treating their various injuries, scrapes, fear…. No placebo explanation, I reasoned, with babes and non humans
> I would think animals that dream probably also have a subconscious.
> in any case for all species most cognitive processes are mostly subconscious, only a tiny part of them is available to our conscious mind, and even less to our conscious control..
>
> M
Certainly for tasks it is accepted we do one thing at a time under conscious control.
Don’t know if this relates to the question about subconscious, but 2 of my adult dogs, one past and the present one exhibited the sucking reflex while asleep as if a puppy nursing. One part of brain was active without their being aware. I found it fascinating.
> I think there is a whole range of different responses possible..
>
> maybe those dreaming dogs suckling were processing some feelings, animals definitely also act them out occasionally, and sometimes they just express them loud and clear.
>
> the last time I left my cat with my mom, a few years ago, for a couple of weeks, upon my return, she came up to me, and for a whole minute loooked up to me meowing in a whole range of different and very expressive ways. I could distinguish sounds that seemed to simply ask ‘why?,’, and ‘how could you?’ and very plaintive meows, also then some indignation, and on and on. this was the first time I had tried to let her come to me instead of immediately going to look for her.
> that was because every year I left her at my mom during my trip to L>a., she seemed to get more pissed off on my return.
>
> the first year she was simply very happy to see me again, ran up to me, jumped on the couch and put her nose against mine, and started to tell me a whole story, and enjoyed being cuddled right away.
> the next year she was cross for a while, and every year it got worse, to the point she actually hissed and clawed at me for the first few hours. but it occurred to me that was because I went up to her while she was still hurt and angry, so that last time I allowed her to take her time and come to me.
>
> so she did, after a little while, and expressed this whole range of feelings, and believe it or not, five minutes later she allowed me to caress her, with just afterwards when I tried to do so again, a halfhearted hiss as to say, mmmm, still a bit pissed off, but well…
>
> so allowing her to express herself to me really made a huge difference to the years when she actually even scared me a bit with the amount of her anger and frustration.
>
> all animals are different, but being really attentive reveals so many similarities we all share to some degree as well..
>
> also with horses the interaction can be fascinating, respect and trust being key words, come to think of it, adding love and care, that goes for all of us doesn’t it?
>
> Phil, I enjoyed reading the long comment you wrote.
>
> I agree that if we’d all be more feeling the ways we treat our domesticated animals, and the wild ones, would change drastically.
>
> can’t stand the way animals are raised and slaughtered on industrial levels, it is a disgrace to humankind.
>
> M
>
> is there a sudden silence on the blog for the last say 12 hours or is it the mails not being sent?
> probably just all busy doing other things?
> had such a fine phone session with Gretchen, all the pain about my cat and about feeling other kinds of hurt all poured out of me almost instantly.
> it is so good to be able to let this happen and to get feedback that feels honest and reliable, thanks Gretch!
> felt huge relief, but woke up again feeling down, but during the day again began feeling how a lot of pressure had dissipated and things had fallen into place.
> there remains still a lot of sadness to go through, but the insecurities have been well addressed, and that is a huge burden off my chest.
>
> and Phil, thanks to you as well for your support!
>
> have ordered a spring cleanup service for my place, will let them do everything I cam possibly think of, including washing curtains and stuff like that, now is the time to do it, no feline around looking for open and normally forbidden doors inviting to explore the wide world behind it. a big fear otherwise, cat sneaking into stairway and so onto street or even in huge basement, brrrr…
>
> also ordered a new tiny device that can do an enormous number of complicated and useful stuff, download all kinds of formats and turn them into speech, record classes or music or memo’s and download audio books or courses, and allow me to edit them in all kinds of ways.
> of course a huge and complicated manual comes with it, I don’t particularly look forward to learning again a new set of instructions but hey, at some point I should start being glad to have it at hand..
>
> used to work with a larger and much more simple device using Daisy formats on cd, but they are not made anymore, so am obliged to go with the digital latest versions… a pain at first, but step by step I should be able to work it out..
> only starting it up takes already 35 pages of instructions..
>
> Guru, where are you and how are you???
>
> so well, just felt like chatting a bit I guess…
>
> the kittens I am told are growing well, have to be patient!!
> this weekend will meet a fellow student that will soon get her bachelor, will get togehter with her for the first time, and she has two cats, so hurray, will be able to have the pleasure of caressing their soft fur and play with them and hopefully make them purr and maybe sit on my lap for a while!!
>
> hope the blog catches up again, M
Margaret, I’m glad to be able to help. I guess what happened here is the discussion about neurotic animals came to an end. Have you picked out the kitten or two that you want from the litter? Phil
I decided NOT to respond to these question as to the possibilty animals having a subconscious or that they are capable of neurosis in the same sense as human neurosis. Primarily because I dont feel I have enough experince with animals, only some cats and one dog.
What I am inclined to see and feel, by reading these latter comments, is there seems to me to be a tendency to characterize behavors in animals and relate that directly to behaviors in us humans. I see that as crooked thinking a la Thouless. I personally see another creature being skittish as merely expressing fear.
I personally find most of these comments to be unscientific, unresaonable, illogical and/or, even irrelevant. It is an extrapolation methodology that I find flawed and capable of directing our thinking and reasoning, into convuluted and complicated conclussions. It sound good, but is it??????
It relates to what I feel and find is taking place in the study of cosmoplogy. Seemingly, there is an attempt to find evidence out there in the cosmos of another intelligent being. The assumptiom, as I see it, is flawed in, that we have assumed that we are intelligent (far more advanced compared, than any other creature on OUR planet). Advanced in what sense? I strongly refute that notion.
That idea suggest to me, that another creature on another planet to be as neurotic (fucked- up) as we are, and is unthinkable and worse irrelevant. I base my idea on what my dictionary defines as neurosis. Said another way … I feel the discussion is off on a tangent .. that reveals nothing useful.
Jack
Agreed. But the kindness including cross species kindness I have witnessed makes me wonder if they have superior qualities. I , too, think their confront or run responses are in the moment feeling reactions.
End of my contribution to variations on this theme, which I fear I stirred in the beginning. I wondered what and why opinions were out there.
Jack, The dog which was beaten and treated cruelly by his master, later, in a good environment still exhibits fearful behavior. Has it learned or been trained according to behavioral theory. No, I tend to think it has been made neurotic. I don’t see why that would be crooked thinking. We are not that different from other animals, especially mammals. Phil
Phil: As I understand the disease/discomfort defined as neurosis, I do feel that some domestic creature are made neurotic (lacking their natural expression) by human intervention. In particular the horse, and some highly trained dogs (for our human use and/or entertainment). There may be others that I am not mentioning here.
I am not sure if the dog in question is neurotic. From my reading of your comment, it seems to a greater extent that it has learned to express fearful behavior (under what circumstance you did not state). That is not, as I see it, neurotic.
The “crooked thinking” I refer to is to extrapolate animal behaviors and correlate them with human behaviors. That kind of extrapolation according to my reading of Thoules IS “crooked thinking”. That extrapolation does not stand up to any more than a vague opinion. Science; demands a greater indulgence and peer review scrutiny.
Jack
Jack, you seem to agree here that certain animals are made neurotic by human intervention. Why would it only be humans capable of making animals neurotic? On the other hand, in your earlier message, you said you didn’t think that animals could be neurotic. So which is it? Or maybe I haven’t understood. I see no reason why animals, especially higher mammals, wouldn’t have a subconscious if we have one. The brain structures correspond. Animals are used all the time to help study human conditions, so that wouldn’t be an unusual type of extrapolation. We hold similar views on primal but I would point out to you that it is not peer reviewed nor really scientific. So I wonder about that as a point of argument from you. I did a Google search on neurotic animals and there does seem to be opinion supporting that notion. Not all wisdom comes from the book of straight and crooked thinking, (which I didn’t understand to be a textbook of scientific method), or Art Janov. I’m not wedded to the idea of animal neurosis and you could be right, but I’m not following your reasoning. Phil
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:43:51 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: It is my contention (solely mine) that animals can be made neurotic, but only through human interverntion. If I did indeed write that animals could not be neurotic; then I mis-wrote. My intent was that no animal left to it’s own NATURAL upbringing would ever become neurotic (given that it was not traumatized by us humans … later)
The next arguement you profer “I see no reason why animals, especially higher mammals, wouldn’t have a subconscious if we have one”. From my reading of Art Janov and his deliniation of Primal Theory … the subconscious is CREATED at the moment of trauma; when there is the need to block the overwhelming feeling. Blocking off; is what creates the subconscious. To corroborate this I see the purpose of Primal Therapy is:- to bring the subconscious back into consciousness. The subconscious in this context, is something that is CREATED in order that the overwhenlming trauma does not kill us at worst OR, drive us totally crazy (schitzoid) at best.
That animals are used in laboratories to study biology, and hopefully be able to extrapolate our finding (rather our idea of our findings). I would have thought:- demonstartes my notion of “Human Intervention”.
Final point (my developed notion over a period of more than 30 year … and yes that is me with the remnants of my neurosis) Talking (the use of language in a ‘pathetic’ means to convey expression of feelings) AND writing is a neurotic ‘act-out’. Since I love blogging and blogging requires me to attempt to portray my sentiments (feelings) on matter that interest me BY writing. I am, by my own definition, using a neuotic technique to express my sentiments. Said another way “head tripping”.
An addendum:- Way before I read “The Primal Scream” I read “Staight and Crooked Thinking” by Robert H.Thouless (origianally written in 1930 and reprinted in 1954, which is about the time I first read it. I was impressed with the book; one of a few books that I found extremely impressive. I tried from there-on-in to be as straight a thinker as I was able. However on reading Janov’s first book in 1973 I saw that thinking was using only half my brain. The other half was my feeling brain. Having spent many years as a thinker and thinking at the time it was the way to a better living ‘modus’ I found it hard to totally let go of my former rationalizing self. But I will keep on plodding. My last two years ‘New Years Resolutions’ have been to do more expressing of my feeling, AND way less thinking. Not easy … old habits die hard.
Jack
Jack, What I wonder; if an animal’s natural upbringing is disturbed, by the loss of the mother for example, what effect that would have. In theory it could produce “neurosis” or whatever you want to call it, as seems to happen to mice or rats under human care, when the mother is removed. I remember reading about animals given an artificial furry milk dispenser in place of the mother. They reached adulthood but had problems. In the wild maybe these animals wouldn’t have survived.
With writing, such as here on the blog, part of the connection is missing but I wouldn’t necessarily call it an act-out. But in person I’m sure we could reach a more satisfying understanding. Phil
Connecting here has made me realize how much I act out with words; act out a whole lot more than I would have thought. just thinking out loud, I realize you all appreciate, but not acting,;eg:defending is also acting out.
uh oh !! opinion, again…
Pigs are very biologically similar to humans; allowing some pig parts to be transplanted into humans; which is why epigenticists say pig is not fit for human consumption. Consider the number of religions that forbid eating pig, including christianity; or the old testament
selection at least. There must have been a lot of years of observation for primitives to have reached that conclusion. Humans eat anything advertised now with the right sugar salt ratio to flavor.
Being afraid is normal, not neurosis; agoraphobia and claustrophobia are; Anger is normal,not neurosis; a compulsion to strike out indiscriminately is.; Sex drive is not neurosis, needing to have sex with every person we know or use it to salve pain is.
Neurosis is a symbolic behavior in defense against excessive psychobiologic pain. Neurosis is self-perpetuating because symbolic satisfactions cannot fulfill real needs. In order for real needs to be satisfied, they must be felt and experienced. Unfortunately, pain has caused those needs to be buried. When they are buried, the organism goes into a continuous state of emergency alert. That alert state is tension. It propels the infant, and later the adult, toward the satisfaction of need in any way possible. This emergency alert is necessary to ensure the infant’s survival; if he were to give up hope of ever having his needs fulfilled, he might die. The organism continues to live at any cost, and that cost is usually neurosis–shutting down unmet bodily needs and feelings because the pain is too great to withstand.
I have hired professional grandparents to hold and rock twenty four hours a day severely emotionally deprived / Failure to Thrive toddlers who were dying because of that emotional abuse at our Provincial Children’s Hospital. I have done touch therapy to try to coax toddlers who were victims of , ” Hospital Syndrome,” back into this reality; and counseled the parents to deal with the rage and hate aimed at them when the child began feeling again. It took years to convince hospitals that no child under 14 should be admitted without a parent living in with them full time and to commence soliciting feelings from accident victims at point of admission or as early as possible.
Can’t say I ever met a non human animal who exhibited survival behavioral response to cope with unmet needs.
David, this discussion stimulated me further today and I found the link below. A book excerpt about experimental neurosis in a dog and sheep, both of them exhibiting shy behavior which seemed to have effected their functioning. Who knows maybe this type of experiment could be a way to prove primal theory. Not the therapy though, as I don’t know if it could be performed on sheep or dogs. Animal models have been used to study the mechanisms of various human diseases. Ethical considerations are maybe a problem. Phil https://books.google.com/books?id=FT4rAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=neurotic+animals&source=bl&ots=F6L-viy0Is&sig=bKrNVIH4Y8mi3d-e7ExWk8O5gGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QKZTVd2aGIexsATvkQE&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=neurotic%20animals&f=false Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 03:22:48 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hi Phil. Poor dog and sheep. In regards to your wonder about the dog reliving its trauma that caused shyness; Maybe under the right circumstances they can. I’ve read on Janov’s blog where he tells a little about a rescued, frightened dog of theirs. He said it snuggled in his armpit and whimpered and cried like a baby. He does not go on to say anymore (like if it became less frightened over time.) But I recall in some of the primal writings where a dog after a veterinary procedure, once home and secure howled, presumably about its experience. I’d like to think they can get rid of their pain too.
You asked before if in other animals the father helps in raising the children. I’ve watched a few gorilla videos on line and the male silverback will care for orphaned, weaned gorillas. Birds, male and female, I think, share in the feeding of the young.
HI Sylvia,Interesting, maybe we could act as therapist to our pet dogs and catsbecause, as our domestic companions, they can have a certain levelof trust in us.Maybe this is related to the process of animal domestication in general, removing them early from their parents, besides controllingbreeding to emphasize desirable characteristics. We becamesurrogate parents. Apparently very few species can be usefully subject to this process.Phil
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:51:15 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I have a sad story to relate about cats. Quite a few years ago when we first moved to the house where we are now, we got two young cats. My wife grew up on a farm where animals were not allowed in the house. The only way I could convince her to get a cat was because of mouse catching ability. Some rodents were eating her flowers outside the house. I said the solution was to get a cat. We ended up with two. However, they could be either outside or come into the basement, but could never be allowed in the living quarters.
This arrangement didn’t work out. One of the cats never really got used to us at all,
it was fearful. One day when I started my Jeep in the garage an accident took place.
Missy had been hiding in the engine and was fatally injured by moving parts in there.
I buried her in the backyard.
The other cat, Minnie, often disappeared for long periods of time. It turns out she was
staying at our neighbors house where there were better accommodations.
We got Minnie back but that didn’t last for long. One day she left and never came
back. For many days I went out walking and driving around but could never find that cat.
My wife still has nightmares about Minnie running away. My younger son always
wanted a dog but couldn’t have one due to this thing about not having large animals in the house. We did have good experiences with hamsters, turtles, and fish, however.
Phil
A long term Canadian wolf study showed that a number of the male wolves in a pack do not mate with females and take on the role of nannies when the rest of the pack are on a hunt. Farley Mowat says they are enormously kind and demonstrative to their young.
Thank you, Phil. I must admit I’d have to review the posts to figure out why I started this in the first place. I will suss out the links you so kindly provided. I don’t know about subconscious but I am convinced dogs, cats, deer, cows, horses are incredibly intelligent in reasoning, and developing understanding of human vocabulary. I injured my spinal cord last October and have not been able to work on the farm since. It’s a working farm not a place to hang out, so today is the first day I have been back there. I got out of my car and called across the field, ” Where’s Davey’s girl?” I saw a head go up and across the field trots Tara and sticks her snout through the fence for a nose kiss. My buddy says I shouldn’t talk about this relationship anywhere a psychiatrist might overhear… hah
So I know she has long term memory.
Cosmoplogy ?
Jack, We are probably done with this topic but I had a few more thoughts on it. And that is how we are different from animals; our thinking capacity, straight or crooked. But neurosis is a disorder of feelings not thoughts, isn’t it? A key question would be, do animals have feelings? I think they do. Humans, no doubt, can be neurotic in a greater variety of ways and with more complexity as compared to animals. For animals maybe a different word should be used for the disorder to make that distinction. All of this is just my opinion, subject to change and not scientific. Phil
Phil: if you have more thoughts to comment upon the matter, by definition, it is not “done with”
Maybe I read Arthur Janov all wrong. That aside for now, I read neurosis as either or both the feeling sensation (relegated to the subconscious) and/or the EXPRESSION of that feeling. “Two components” if my memory serves me correctly. If you are not, as it seems to me, talking about both these factors, but merely just mentioning the feeling sensation aspect of a full-feeling; then we are more than likely to be talking cross purposes.
Just to clarify my notion. Thinking; disconnected from a feeling, is a factor of neurosis. The brain is:- as I read it, an organ solely meant to organize the expression of the feeling and then appropriately re-act to it. All the rest, language, mathematics, and the rest of our need to be taught (as opposed to being allowed to learn) is part of that process that we created; in order to NOT feel the unutterable feelings due to our rearing both in early child-hood and utero.
If we do not come to some understanding of what is meant with words then we are on the path to MISUNDERSTANDING of one another.
Jack.
Jack wrote “I personally find most of these comments to be unscientific, unreasonable, illogical and/or, even irrelevant. It is an extrapolation methodology that I find flawed and capable of directing our thinking and reasoning,blah blah blah……………..”
Now there’s a guy on a roll………………….4 ‘un’s and ‘in’s in a row……………I can see why he does not want any ‘intellectuals’ around…………..he wants it all to hims\elf…………..no ‘pretenders’ to the throne he is the TRUE Keeper of the Crypt and he wants to keep it that way…………….get out of the way all you ‘pretender’ intellectuals I am the REAL intellectual………………he chides people for being ‘in their heads’ but what is he?……….well ‘in his head’ of course…………of course like most things he takes after his ‘guru’ Janov who also derided all ‘intellectuals’ so his ‘mock intellectualism’ could be the one and only one………….come to think of it is that why he objects so strongly to Guru calling himself the ultimate and superstar guru…………..there is only ONE true guru………………Janov of course but Jack is SO close to him his reflected glory shines on him………………he is an ‘obedient’ little Lucifer no rebellion from him……………..just kissing the ass of what he perceives as authority…………an authority who will have little if anything to do with him……………well one time he said his ‘book’ was OK……………………..
Whoa…. some say this is a just a comic act , you and Jack, between two good friends. If so have at it if it entertains you. If not,it is a bit of violent vitriolic diatribe which I find disturbing. Doesn’t do a thing for me in terms of ferreting out my buried stuff. Patrick just for my edification what have you done for humankind that comes up to the bootstraps of Arthur Janov.?? I don’t know perhaps you are the current personification of messiah. I saw through that silly god story when I was 12.
Your Janov is not my Janov; ie: our impressions of the man. You apparently have done a live autopsy on the man so that you know his most personal thoughts, his motivations, perhaps even better than Mr. Janov. does. Do you not find that troubling. That would not be indicative of fabulous mental health. If this coming from your Daddy stuff ?? I wonder if he slanders you? Oh that’s right, he doesn’t know your exist. I’m sorry that hurts you.
David – I do not NEED to know his “his most personal thoughts, his motivations” but I DO see and have seen his ‘results’ or his ‘works’. By their fruits you shall know them and please leave out your amateurish attempts at ‘psycho-analising’ me……………..have you not learned anything or very much……………of course like most ‘primallers’ you are very much stuck at first base…………….that is part of the program……………keep people forever not grown up and forever needing ‘therapy’……………
You are certainly compelled to tell us all the real truth and the whole truth, oh wise one. That biblical crap is very mature. And if this is not a friendly comic routine then you have an apparent obsession with Jack. Being so opposed to Primal and full of hate for the guru why do you shop here.? Your conclusions are not borne out in fact. No, no; why am I debating the unarmed ?? I should be ashamed. Actually I was a professional psychotherapist. I didn’t do that shit to anyone then.
>
> Phil,
> not yet, the lady says they are still to small and the cat mommies too protective for a visit.
> but maybe next week or so she will let me know when the time is right for a first visit, look forward to it of course.
> seven kittens, and probably all gorgeous and endearing!
> will try to keep it to just one, might give the vet a call first to make up my mind, two is nice but can also get more complicated..
> i am home a lot of the time so there will be plenty of company, and hopefully cats don’t mind to feel they are the only feline ruling the place..
> M
AH NEVER MIND
Below is something I read this week by a guy called Jon Rappoport which I found interesting and it seems to me true of the way the world is going………………..
“To place every person on the planet into a cradle-to-grave system of diagnosing and drugging vaccinations and interference.. To make every person, first and foremost, a medical patient. To thereby condition every person to obey orders.
Obey.
The doctor knows. Don’t question him. Just do what he tells you to do. Comply. From now until they lower your body into the ground. Take the drugs, and become more debilitated and, therefore, more obedient at a much deeper level.
This is the foremost system of eliciting obedience in the world.
We’ve recently seen the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, issue a dictum about vaccination. Former exemptions have been canceled. Families receiving government aid will be cut off from that money if they refuse to vaccinate their children. No more freedom.
Obey or else.
When you can get citizens to obey in one area, there is a spillover to other areas. They become accustomed to a life of surrender. They give in. They go along. They yield on one front, so they yield on another”.
Two sites; Natural News and GreenMed; where health professionals speak out on these topics.
Cosmoplogy………..reminds me of this scene from Spinal Tap about “Dobly”………….
Or the practice of rectocranialinversion….
Nice to learn new words, David.
Patrick’s words dumped me into my reptile brain. I lashed out. I’m not so nice as I thought I am.
That’s fine David………………I do that to people it seems…………..probably because I very much reside in my own reptile brain…………..the part that says ‘give me mine, don’t take it away from me eff the guy who might do that etc etc……………..I like the way you can check yourself……………if EITHER Jack or I could do that it would not have gone on so long……………..the reptile brain is very concerned with SURVIVAL…………..that’s me all right…………
Reading your words of comment to me brought out in me something I later recognized from youth, put a third, outsider, in with me and my best bud, and we verbally ganged up on him, had sport with him, shat on him. So that’s what I wanted to do to you, dump on you with insulting comments for insulting, “Primal.” The safety offered by teenage ganging up by two’s or gang is replicated by the distance and anonymity of this gadget.
I think that’s where my, ” great defender,” “dave the brave,” behavior came from, started about age 14. At age 14 I threw a hung over man, a stranger, out through his window because he was threatening more beating to his bruised wife and his daughter. Like some Charles Bronson character I then went outside and stood over him listening to him curse and threaten me and hoping he’d get up and challenge me. I had 14 years of hate I guess I wanted to take out on him.
Until now that story was known only to that family, the delivery guy I was working for, and me. All these years I was rather proud of how brave I had been, Humph. Not sure how to see it now.
Sober,or less so, I always could be pushed or led by the ear, remain good natured, with no resistance. In either state if I saw someone else being bullied I was all over it, naively without regard for my safety, physically and legally.
I would never want to be the coward who closes his shades when a person in danger is outside screaming for help.
But there’s a line isn’t there ??
David – I like the way you ‘cop’ to things………….if you hang around here for a while I wonder if you still will feel ok to do so. I hope so but well let’s say I have my doubts. Another ‘ironic’ effect of ‘primal’…………………..and to be clear my ‘doubts’ are not about you it’s more about the ‘environment’ (here)…………..
Yeah it’s as cannibalistic as the Association of Professional Social Work tribe and the legislated Naturopathy hierachy. We espoused on unconditional acceptance, respect, blah , blah, and then feed on each other to gain favor of the political handlers. I was hated by the bureaucrats. I used to delight looking into their eyes when they were forced to say something nice about me in a public forum.
I assumed as we evolved, moving , ” Towards a Primal World,” and hopefully attaining such community; we would heal to a large extent, live in loving harmony with one another, and if we still needed to shit on anyone we’d collectively and in concert rage against the bastards who damaged us and be tolerant for each other’s foibles, presuming they don’t include wantingly harming others, and feel sad for one another. That’s my Utopia.
Spinning of the accidental thorns of people going their own way can be a blessing, a tool for further release of pain. Deliberately setting out to hurt someone is just plain fucked. No role for me in that family dynamic. I had a full childhood of it. I as the only surviving sanity out of that mess, bar my wonderful grandfather.
My sibs are born again christians or alcohol addicts. They tried to convince me that I was broken and an embarrassment because I am neither. I save money because I don’t have to pay to belong to either of those country clubs.
Shit all I ever wanted to do was love and let love. Beats hell out of looking over my shoulder for the next nut with a perceived score to settle. fuck, i did it again , pontificate, puff and blow..
Cheers ( my youngest brought that home from his years,”abroad.” hah; good kid.)
.
Hey All, I really need you to ” rat out” your fellow retreat participants and let me know who has a birthday that falls during the week of the upcoming retreat. You can email me at primalinstitute@gmail.com – Thanks, Gretch p.s. Nice to have you joining us on the blog David 🙂
Long time since I sat in your presence. Your kindness and competence are legendary. That guy you hang out with is not too shabby either. hah
Mary, you may know is a psychologist in Colorado; her sister Theresa is a Doc of Naturopathic Medicine located near me.
much respect, david
> hi Phil, and Sylvia,
> the male seahorse, don’t know if it is the proper name in English, this tiny animal with a head a bit like a horse’ and a curly tail with which it holds on to branches of seaweed and stuff, well, they take over the eggs and young of their wifes and keep it in some kind of pouch and take care of then, kind of a surrogate very good mommy role.
>
> and to be honest, I hope there is no need anymore for more animal experiments about neurosis, I always get very distressed when reading about them,many of these experiments are so cruel.
>
> Phil, that is a sad story about your cats. it is a surprise your wife still has nightmares about the cat running away, and not about the other one in the car..
> hopefully she has again found someone maybe providing her with a lush personal pillow on the couch smiley.. cats tend to get a bit opportunistic on this level..
> M
Not to detract from the deserved solemnity of your post, but reading the first line or so, my silly brain wrote, “… no Margaret, not called a sea horse in English, that’s a “tony abbott.” Don’t know where that came from ? sign of a sick man, I’m sure.
Then I read further and I withdraw my satirical substitution, because by all reports Australian PM, Tony Abbott, does not have any care or concern for other than his white republican social group, even the vulnerable young
. unh; damn, broke through my soap box…..
Forced to live with or at the mercy of humans is perhaps the most prominent experiment. I doubt if my best effort to be a surrogate family mate was ever good enough. I was likely more the recipient of good fortune than they.
> David,
> don’t censor yourself too much, so far I enjoyed reading your contributions.
> we have all searched how best to deal with some of the occasional vitriolic verbal diarrrea occasionally dripping over the blog.
> you are doing fine so far im ny opinion, standing your ground with reasonable and sound arguments and a touch of humour.
> M
Margaret – I can’t help but feel you are referring to me……………..I don’t like that……………I have given you my ‘apologies’ or at least my ‘explanations’ more than once…………….yet you CONTINUE your jabs…………….you have had your session with Gretchen now try to put a bit of what you learned into effect. I will not be just a punching bag for you I can imagine you feel so ‘justified’ but I as I have told you several times have a different take.
When I see you ‘sizing up’ a new little cat it seems to be here comes another ‘victim’ a victim that will be shot full of vaccinations and drugs and ‘interference’ and ‘love’. Your kind of ‘love’ something to keep you from feeling alone someone who will not be remotely allowed to be themselves – a cat – something to be ‘vaccinated’ against meeting other cats…………….anyway I am going off again but it pisses me off you continue your jabs (both meanings of the word) and nonsense…………
Also I don’t get the feeling you have ‘learned’ anything from you last experience you will do the same again with your new cat…………….including your cute little ‘final act’?. I still don’t like that but it seems it’s all about you, how to salve your loneliness, the cat is just a prop…………….I know I have an ‘issue’ with this……………what is ‘love’ is it as it seems to be for the most part ‘selfish’ I suppose it is maybe just my ‘stupid’ Catholic upbringing taught me it was something else………………..
Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms.
Many claims of sexual abuse against Catholic Priests turn out to be false
The Catholic Church has paid out billion$ in settlements over the past decade to alleged (my emphasis) abuse victims. There’s no denying some people were sickeningly abused, but how do you ferret out the false claims?
Anybody can say anything, and if I was a janitor working my ass off for $10 an hour, for example, it could appear mighty tempting to lay a false claim against a neighborhood priest that he did something bad to me as a child for a quickie million dollar settlement. (Equaling 100,000 hours of janitorial work…50 years full time manual labor in exchange for blurting out “he abused me!”)
Gold diggers are always attracted to the latest gravy train.
Guru – you make a good point there. I grew up Catholic including 5 years in an all male boarding school,run by priests I am NOT recommending that but I never was ‘bothered’ by anyone either another student or any of the priests in anything of a sexual nature. Neither did I see or even hear of any ‘abuses’ of any kind
Again just my experience but I suspect a fair amount of these ‘claims’ now may be motivated by money or at least in part by money. Like you say if someone’s life is not going so well…………hmmm maybe I was ‘abused’ a bit this could be money…………….
I assume it was David who wrote though it said ‘anonymous’ but from the context I am pretty sure it was him.
“Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms”
I really don’t like that kind of talk. Well maybe just leave it at that but I really don’t like it. Some people even say a lot of “Jewish” lawyers got very rich ‘dismembering’ the Catholic Church
Hello Patrick, No, this didn’t come from me. I always own what I say, as outrageously silly as it may be sometimes.
“Catholic upbringing may have taught you that molestation and rape of children of just fine so long is it’s kept under wraps. Catholic Love is a contradiction in terms”
That sounds like vomitous non directed rage; you know, off the chart fury but not able to direct it at the deserving target of the rage..
Do you think that state could be a component of targeted but random mass murders: eg: the school shootings.
I did have professional contact with a number of RC and Anglican priests in the 70’s and 80’s who left their professions, who disclosed that they had been sexually abused in seminary by the, ” old priests. The clergy of all stripes show up in forensic studies as high on the sexual perversion and abuser scales; doctors a close second. By profession, doctors and professional police placed highest on spousal abuse and spousal homicide. Psychologists and Social Workers scored tops
in poorly controlled spending and consumer debt.
We treated sexually abused ,”children,” of medical docs including, psychiatrist and pediatrician.
David – hmmm I wonder who DID write it then? I guess ‘un-focused’ rage could end up anywhere school shootings included………….one thing that strikes me about Catholic Church abuse is like in Ireland now and for the past 10 years they endlessly beat themselves up about it, the people in general I mean, endless ‘guilt’ about it and it’s like they can never flagellate themselves enough about it but what I notice is there is very LITTLE discussion about how to ‘solve’ it. To me there is an easy answer to that allow priests to marry…………that is basically the root of the problem But it’s interesting to me how people rather than ‘look forward’ to a solution they would prefer to endlessly wallow in the past………………I even relate this to ‘primal’ and I mean in my own case. A strong tendency to ‘look back’ and beat myself up rather than well you know……….
(Jack to be clear I am really talking about myself and maybe why ‘primal’ appealed to me so much – there really is no need to ‘defend’ your/the Faith)
The whole sexual cleric predator gets popularly dumped on RC priests. In my professional experience I found it to be ubiquitous throughout the clergy married and unmarried; also the Roman Catholic married deacons. Children were not the sole victims but also age 16 + and mature female parishioners. The RC priest and church residential school abuse experience here is that the victims are primarily boys, both pre and post pubescent. Not just abuse but murder of children occurred there. The pedophile and sexual predator priests were not attracted to same sex adult relationships.
I had one priest come out to a parishioner, whose husband physically abused her and ritualistically sexually abused their daughter for several years, that he had sex with a woman lover when he was out of province on vacation. He potentially exposed himself to punctuate sexual normalcy, something that was eluding her because of abuse and religious conflicts.
His bravity raised him high in my respect.
While imperfect, as is any rule, one consideration when investigating is that people lie to get out of trouble, not in it. Outing oneself as a victim especially by a man against a man is to mark yourself forever by a segment of society as also being a pervert. The cross examination is no picnic. That said ,since adults know about sex it is easier for them to fabricate a story about abuse. Although it would be tough for a man to describe the emotional and physical experience of being anally raped if it hadn’t happened. A good psychopathic actor could pull it off. Most reporting victims of clergy abuse are male. We have had accusations against nuns. One was convicted of horrendous physical assault and humiliation of girls. It is believed she murdered children. In another province a huge case against Nuns began, and suddenly disappeared when reportedly enough money made it go away. During my practice it was impossible to gain prosecution of female sexual abusers acting on their own. Society was not ready for that blow. It’s believed that only sexual abuse by a prominent care taker can explain certain later behaviors. The lack of reports of these abuses by males is explained by that it usually ends around age 4. If the male child refuses he can’t be intimidated into having an erection. We all know know how tough it is to access those early memories. And our society does not have much love or tolerance for their act outs, delinquent behavior, youth homelessness, child prostitution.
One of the failures of Right to Lifers, their vigilance ends with delivery.
I established case law to allow me to hire lawyers to be present during proceedings to protect children as young as 8 from being further abuse by crown and defense counsel.
Oddly I have found who profoundly believe on the gravy train opportunists theory and those who warn us to be on the lookout for them have been the ones with their snouts deepest in the trough.
*eyeroll*
Oh, man..Why did I even bother visiting the blog today? At least I had a chance to respond to Margaret, I guess.
Had a nice visit ?? cheers, mate
Not to pile on, but I have thought for the past 40 years that it is an injury to companion animals to separate them from their parent(s) and whelp mates at the conventional age. Separation from mom is understood by us all I think. Separation from whelp mates means cutting them off from important relationship experience, rough housing, normal mouthing, chewing on sibs, conflict resolution. I’m amazed more don’t act out with aggression towards us stead of in with passive or obedience behaviors.
Enslaved peoples don’t revolt and commit genocide against the invaders or slavers; historically they self harm and create expression secret to their group. White north america’s survival particularly as power broker is a case study in point.
Not to try to paint me as a higher life form but the only time non humans who lived with me went to a vet was in case of severe injury. That’s also the only time this animal goes to an Allopathic doctor/MD. 69 now, I’ll report on how that worked out in another 30 years.( huma). I learned at great tragic cost to canine I adopted. The contract required that he be castrated before release to my home. I spent enough time with him at the shelter what kind of guy he was. What I received after surgery was an intellectually brain damaged boy. Research / Dr. Andrew Pitcairn; uncovered the cause. Vaccinations given at point of surgery cross the brain blood barrier, piggy backed on the anesthetic designed to do just that, and poison the brain.
Natural approaches to healing and a home prepared mock natural diet were followed. The same with the farm animals.
Shit, there I go, at the pulpit again. david the wise… Totally quiet for long expanses an then, pow…
I always gritted my teeth listening to my father’s soliloquies. They were deathly embarrassing, even more painful than his unspoken hate for me. It was worse to me that people would judge him a fool.
Now I do it….
At the risk of gratuitous comment, Mr Bear in the wild has survived as a species without a vet. His only real threat is us.
To , ” quote, ” ??? Pink Floyd, ” Peoples, leave those kits alone.” Lots of abandoned and seniors facing euthanasia needing a home to escape the NEEDLE available for adoption..
We all need some salving; at least this,”we,” does…. That may be what we get from a healthy relationship. Just sayin’ man…
>
> David,
> I can relate to some extent to what you say, but only partly so.
> I have talked about this before here so will try to be brief.
> I do not want to go to breeders for a pet, and join the commercial circuit of breeding design animals.
>
> but adopting a stray cat’s kitten is merely providing a safe home for an animal already there and needing one.
> it is a win win situation, not all cats are so lucky to find a home with a great outdoors that is free of cars and coyotes, but mine has cought her fair share of mice here and enjoyed that.
>
> if we wait ten to eleven weeks, the kitten or puppy seems to be ready to explore the world while bonding with a new companion, curiosity prevailing over the old nest’s familiarity.
>
> it is in many ways a natural thing, we had cats when I was young, outdoors and occasionally indoors as well, and the mother used to chase the young at a certain age to go their own way.
>
> I carefully watched my former cat when I got her, had waited about ten weeks, before taking her with me to her new home, and I asssure you, she was really at ease and happy and adjusted instantly.
> we were a few people watching her, while she did the tour of the place, exploring all the corners in a quick and smooth check-up, and then she jumped onto the bed and curled up very much as to say, mmmm, purring and graciously accepting all the smiles and sounds of admiration and approval, to then go for a delicious nap.
>
> she used to sleep cuddled up in my hair, once in the palm of my hand, and bonded rightaway with me as one more big almost furless cat that clumsily walked on its hind legs, but that was ok otherwise.
>
> she showed her affection in many ways, got a lot of care and attention, with me being around almost all the time, and well, I am sure she had a very happy life really, not as a cat in the wild but as a domesticated cat.
>
> i am sure it would even be better if I’d have a large garden, but still, she could go out on the terrace and roof and caught a couple of pigeons even, which luckily she released spontaniously when I approached to check out what the racket was about..
>
> I have heard your words, given them some thought, and then thought of and remembered my purring cat cuddling up against me, and felt she liked me, liked her life and was happy.
>
> not a perfect life, I agree, feel bad about not having been able to let her have her own kittens, but that is reality too, there are too many already, who sadly enough often end up in much worse circumstances.
>
> believe me, I am concerned with what is right and what is not, so don’t feel I have learned or gained anything with these comments, that are not helpful in any way to me.
>
> that is probably not their goal anyway, just saying.
>
> I am glad to say I follow my own conscience and feelings on this one, and the cats as far as I can honestly observe then while I do my best to provide them with a happy life, and make it as fullfilling and pleasant as possible, within my possibilities.
>
> maybe look at yourself instead and check if all is so perfect there?
> M
Hi Margaret. Reading about the care you have for your cat reminds me. The lengths I’ve gone to over the years for cats. Once I tracked down, or tried to, a mother cat the day after her giving birth in fear she would not return to her newborns. I got to know the whole neighborhood by way of my cats. I ask, “have you seen my tabby cat and if you do she answers to ‘Elsie?” The neighbor gentleman said “no, but I’ll remember her name because that’s my wife’s name.” Finally Elsie came home after hunting.
I’ve had 3 week old kittens lose their mom to the hi-way, and we bottle-fed all 5 babies. I taught them to hunt rats by shining a light up the wall of the barn and up they’d go.
Recently with my elder cat (the biter) I’m having to change her diet because of kidney problems. I thought she might be diabetic, but okay so far. In my research of diabetic cats it is not an easy or pleasant life for them with the glucose testing and shots.
I’m glad you are doing better and am always glad to find you here. Your future kitty will be very lucky to have your care.
S
Sylvia, I agree. It is abusive what has been done to animals to satisfy neurotic humans. Did you construe I was advocating supporting breeders ??
I am a “student” of Dr. Andrew Pitcairn teachings. I would never order a breeders’ cat or dog. All of my non humans family have been rescues, orphans, including the horses that would have gone for meat as they failed the highest working horse gradings. They were too intelligent to be subservient; marvelous to get on with cooperatively when their intellect was respected.
Hello David. I think you meant your comment for Margaret. Welcome to the blog. Looks like we all are in a dance of getting to know one another. A growl here, a sniff there (as dogs do.) What a pack, huh
And the occasional territorial lifted leg… hah
Yes, the aroma
Sorry. I used to raise small dogs–can’t forget the yard clean-up.
Oh, “dog,” the small dogs and cats who manage to crawl under the lattice border of the deck to make toilette. Savor that hot July day lingering olafactory memory. hah !!
Wow that last line is a 6 yer old poorly veiled warning shot over my bow, Margaret. Does anyone call you M, or Mag or Maggy or Peggy ??
Patrick is correct, you do come in sneaky and nasty when you sense an afront, I was not attacking you. Just sharing my well informed information. After completing my doctoral degree in Naturopathy, I took studies in animal development and care from the perspective of a practitioner with a Phd in Animal/Veterinary Medicine, and decades of experience in wild and domestic animal care. He noted he never treated a wild animal who had any of their domesticated descendent’s diseases and affectations; nor fleas and ticks problems; no matted hair that plagues my well groomed long hair calico, Mao, every spring full name Mouse y Tongue ( Mao zedong ???); who has never met a rodent she didn’t befriend. Needs to be reeducated, I know.. sister of Mitsu, the wise and loving, Moishe Patch Eye, the inventor, Mouse the Silly, and ” M eye Five” their fierce mother, who only is friendly towards me when no other cat is in sight; all feral, who chose to come in an open door and stay. I’m their house staff.
Some thought comes from the accepted animal science rule, when I studied, that at 1 year of age a cat has attained the brain maturity of a 5 year old human; the social capacity of a teenager at about 12, and stalls there. I would never separate a 5 year old from his mom. I would offer up to any orphan, with no one else though.
I have personally seen what happens to the children sent off at age 8, 10, 12, to strangers, to pursue someone’s dreams of becoming a, musician super star, ballerina diva, sports celebrity, modelling sensation. I wept for those babes and the families they would someday go on to create,their parents blind to the harm they were doing. to their babies. Another example, the residential schools, the publicly funded and the privately purchased, by the wealthy, torture chambers. A S Neill documented that tragedy very well. And it has always struck me that his
methods of therapy bordered on primal for children. What children’s psych unit would pay a nanny to keep a child clean who is defending by defecation and not reprimanded; and, then to go further by paying the child when he did a really big shit in his underwear. The modern geniuses would put him in a secured by locking device disposable diaper,a behavior modification program ,and meds.
We of all people should know what happens when we fuck with nature. I’m a reasonably high functioning example. Like the white skinned mulatto, you’d never pick me out in the crowd of “whiteys.”
The concern for happiness, if you like, of all living things has been a facet of this imperfect me. I tear when I see road kill. Someone’s natural destiny was stolen.
My ex-wife once said it didn’t make her feel special being so well loved by me because I loved everyone and everything. Odd that was what initially attracted her to me. hmm.. A better shortcoming than abusing, I figure.
I wrote a large sample group of human adopters in 1989. I asked them to describe their adopted children, placed with them between ages of newborn and three years. The response painted an astounding picture, for me. The children over 3 months of age when adopted were described as being essentially identical to their older birth sibs; having had no interaction for more than a decade.
Patrick: in response to your May 14th 3:37 am comment I get the feeling that you love to dole out the vitriol, but it seems you get really, really upset when someone merely just hints at your imperfections. AND I am not the first to mention it
Just a hint from “The keeper of the Crypt” If it seemingly hurts you that bad … how about checking your dumping on others?
No guarantee it work however.
Jack
“What is love anyway/does anyone love anybody anyway”
” What’s love but a second hand emotion ,”
Next line, “Tina,”…..
I have heard two explanations of what is love:- the first came from some little girl when one of the muppets asked that question “What is love?” and the little girl replied “Hugs and kisses and a warm feeling inside” That really touched me. The other was a little more ‘academic’ and was words to the effect:- When allowing all NEEDS to be met.
There are not a lot of needs in order to survive in relative comfort. If I remember them correctly they were:- to be allowed to breath freely, to be fed when needed, to be kept warm and clean, free movement, touched and/or held and freely express what we feel.
As I understand it, there is the that other use of the word, when used with:- “Falling in LOVE”. I think perhaps that is what you David meant with “…. a second hand emotion”. I would prefer to use the term:- ‘the other second meaning’.
One is being loving … the other being loved …. .
Jack
T’was my SILLY GENE jumping into the driver’s seat again, Jack. I have not viewed the video yet. I was nudged to recall a Tina Turner song, ” What’s Love Got to Do With It,” that quote is the 2nd lyric line in the bridge.
I have the fondest and most revered place inside me for the faces of love. The greatest gift I ever received was being permitted to be a caretaker of my babes. My youngest, Rachael, died at age 4, after open heart surgery. She would have been 38, May 24th. Her favorite song was Ms Charlie MacLaine’s, ” Surround Me With Love,” offered at full volume while , ” accompanying,” herself on piano., ” Whatever comes I’ know I’ll make, because you surround me with love.” I thought my great love would guarantee her survival. I was wrong. I should have sold my fucking house and taken her to Russia for the surgery. Her surgeon suggested I should seek psychiatric help when I started crying when we met to discuss ,” her file,” 6 weeks after her death.
I held my tongue because my grandfather taught me never to debate an unarmed man.
She brought out the best of my humanity. I miss her.
>
> just for all other reders of the blog, although I don’t think anyone or almost noone is that stupid to not know this, the friend I was disappointed in I mentioned when talking about my session, was definitely not Patrick, ha!
>
> the only frase exchanged about him in my session was that it was a relief not to have him on the blog for a while.
> and mahybe just a few more words like sick and crazy, haha!
> M
Margaret – I did not ‘assume’ either that you were referring to me……………I am not that presumptuous but and maybe I am wrong I DID think you were referring to me with this
“we have all searched how best to deal with some of the occasional vitriolic verbal diarrhea occasionally dripping over the blog.”
Were you? it’s a simple matter only you know what is in your mind. A ‘yes’ or ‘no’ would be nice. So no need to be ‘cute’ about it. Like when Otto (I think) compared me to his dog there was a bunch of ‘speculation’ from you but HE never answered. So much for ‘primal straightness’ a value more honored in the breach than the observance to use an old phrase
And speaking about ‘verbal diarrhea’ to use your phrase isn’t what you wrote kind of an example of that? I don’t like the way you feel free to write all kinds of crap on/about me but you are so ‘precious’ about any criticism of yourself.
As far as you getting a ‘new’ cat I notice there is already a vet on the scene, proving ot me you have learned nothing, you will do the same again torture and hurt the poor thing for what you think is right for it and you will ‘finish it off’ too if you decide that’s what’s good for it. So check yourself a bit, I know you feel in the majority here……………….does not make your ‘right’
Patrick, About your brother’s sheep; that isn’t any kind of experiment. It’s like a smoker saying he doesn’t think smoking causes cancer because he hasn’t gotten it yet, or that he knows a smoker who lived to the age of 90. Pretty much a worthless random observation. Phil
Phil – I TOTALLY dis-agree!!
SHIIIIT !! Jon Stewart is leaving the Daily Show. They may be looking for new writers and faux, ” correspondents.” Break me up .
Are you and Jack the same age, Patrick. He mentioned in a blog working with you years back with one of my early LA employers, Mike Lewis; the rat !! I try to convince myself that my brain is not atrophying with little brain games, occasionally, like driving through LA. I think Mike Lewis’s street name started with, “C”; but that might represent some other word that came to mind when I read his name. If I was an artist I could paint his house from memory.
Here I go…. I felt this great bit of hope and comfort when Rory ??? told me he had referred me to Mike Lewis for more frequent work than Rory had to offer. I had a friend back here named Mike Lewis. Our kids played sports together. I coached because I didn’t want some moron fucking with my kids’ heads. He was a great guy, great dad. Mike had died with a brain tumor just before I left for LA.
The contrast between the two Mikes could not have been more exaggerated.
Associations, eh ???
I worked for Mike Lewis too – I even crashed his truck one time (brakes failed not ‘really’ my fault). This was also part of my ‘baptism’ in LA and was one of the things that ‘alerted’ me that primal seemed to ‘fail’ most of the time. I met him and many others like him who had been around for years and years and it was like huh?…………..I was talking to a friend a few days ago and we were talking about what we expected primal people to be like and for some reason I came up with maybe like Led Zeppelin only ‘cooler……………and he was like ‘yeah something like that. Then we both laughed at our absurd fantasies.
I needed that. Mike sent us out to move the ,”dad” character, Michael Gross, on ” Family Ties,” out of storage on the production co lot to a gated house in Malibou; with that fucking ancient Ford pickup and the furniture van. The guy was in a forced move situation. I listened to Mike on the phone with told Gross his fleet of Moving Vans was solidly booked for weeks but if it would help him out he’d send out two certified moving technicians with the truck and trailer he reserved for transporting boxes and moving blankets to the job. No, he did not have any furniture robes left, they were all on his vans.
WE got to the job, me, two days in the bizz, and one very hung over, ” Louie,” from NY, with a splitting head ache, who by appearance I worried might roll me when the customer paid the cash job.
Gross had a fucking painting that was worthy more than Mike’s house. I told him the truth about Lewis Moving Corporation, what we arrived in was the company equipment; that we had no insurance and that the only way I was moving anything was for him to have the production company office type up a Waiver releasing me and Louie from any and all liability arising from damage to his furniture. He did so. We went into carpentry and he took 4 sheets of inch thick hard wood plywood and 4 sheets of 4 ” egg crate impact absorbent foam; and rolls of duct tape and furniture robes. We packed that painting, loaded and delivered Buddy’s furniture.
We retired from Lewis futures.
Phil – to explain a bit more why I think that…………..the results on ONE person or animal can tell you a whole lot………….more than the ‘averages’ beloved of medical science and ‘blind controls’. …………..most of medicine is totally cluttered up with statistical ‘truths’ (non truths usually). The smartest people in medicine are beginning to say this they talk about each person’s N=1, a statistical sample of ONE or of YOURSELF. I would say pay attention to that and not so much to statistics.
Patrick, There’s probably no point in debating this but there could be a whole lot of reasons why the sheep were healthy one year and less so another. It’s great that they are doing well, just that I wouldn’t draw large conclusions from that. It is simply one observation which is worth a lot less than thousands of observations. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-19843) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
On the biodynamic organic farm I work on our sheep , cattle, and goats always do well. They eat a plant based, grain free diet; free of all chemical medicines. They do not require deworming. They graze on the hard scratch fields they are genetically engineered to thrive on..
They are spared the stress of man shearing and dipping.They are permitted to naturally shed and the wool is collected.
I use homeopathic remedies as needed with the critters but the sheep never need it..
Patrick, To add more to what I said, if you found something that works for you I can understandabout going with that, I would do that too. But that, to me, doesn’t mean throwing out all medicine, vaccinesetc. I watched about half of Dr, Kruse’s interview you posted, I don’t know what to make of that, I can’t really evaluate it.He talks about subatomic workings, but what goes on at cellular, organ and the organism levels is stillimportant. What Dr. Kruse talks about is at the opposite end of the spectrum from primal, so the two don’t really gotogether. But Kruse may have valuable findings, he certainly is totally convinced. Phil
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 01:59:34 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – I take your point that Kruse might seem the opposite of primal…………….but not really to me…………the way I think of it is what is reality?……………….if someone makes a ‘discovery’ about some important aspect of ‘ reality’ is is ‘coupled’ with lots of other things that might not at first seem related……………he knows a bit about organs and cells etc after all his day job is a brain surgeon.
But I have to admit having gone ‘off’ him a bit recently. Since I met him actually. Also now I feel he under-estimates the damage of certain things (vaccines especially) and possibly over-estimates the dangers of cell phones etc. Still he is a formidable presence at least I think so. The way I see it ALL of these things are damaging it’s a matter of degree and some emphasize some aspects others different ones.
I have tried to interest him in primal I gave him Janov’s book “Life Before Birth” but yes I suppose that is what you are saying………………now I start to feel as good as he is he has blind spots too. It seems everyone has blind spots or so I see it……………..
Patrick, I realize Kruse is a brain surgeon, but he no longer seems to think much of his medical training. I don’t have any chronic medical condition I need help with, and that’s why Dr. Kruse doesn’t interest me. No need to change what I am doing. Phil
I want to add Patrick that the remarks, levied against you, that you’d approve of child sexual abuse, in the RC religion post, that’s just plain DIRTY. Too far below the muck to even be reptilian.
The anonymity is actually comforting. I’d never give an ounce to someone in hiding.
The anonymity is also ‘cowardly’ and ‘weak’…………..something I have gotten a bit used to here……………….you are a nice change a breath of fresh air to a stuffy room that needed it pretty badly. Hope you can keep going……………
And, I also wanted to write “Hi” to Margaret. I am doing OK, but all this talk about animals doesn’t really light my rockets, you know? I wish you the best in your future feline endeavors, nonetheless.
Quote again from Jon Rappoport
““To place every person on the planet into a cradle-to-grave system of diagnosing and drugging vaccinations and interference.. To make every person, first and foremost, a medical patient. To thereby condition every person to obey orders”
My addition to the above: not only every person……………….but every cat, dog,, sheep, cow, goat, even maybe rabbit do the same………………..I am glad to report that my brother’s sheep are all great and un-fucked with for a change………………
But at some time; aren’t they going to be slaughtered against their own wishes or input … by slitting their throats and leaving their own heart to beat such that it drains the blood out before the actually die.
Seems you know what it means for sheep to feel “great” yeah!!!! Least-ways until they are led to the slaughter housse
Will this remain another unanswered comment?????
Jack
I hunted deer in the years when I was a meat eater. I always felt great remorse after a kill. I always apologized to the deer and thanked it for the meat. Don’t know where that came from. In 2008 I learned that my father’s biological father was North American Indian. I began frequenting a local
reserve interested in leaning their culture. I saw other aspects of them in me, as I was from childhood. Lo and behold thanking the animal is a part of their ancient beliefs. None of this is to justify my kills.
At the farm they don’t have me work on slaughter days.
I am also convinced by the scientific work of Connecticut Naturopathic Scientist, Dr. Peter J. D’Adamo, that Blood Types, O, B and to a lesser degree AB require red meat consumption for optimal health. That need is genetically programmed by ions of human existence.
I’m Blood Type A; best suited for a vegetarian diet.
Thanks be for ta poor sheeps…. Did some shearer get laid off ???? hhah On a serious note, I was amazed and appalled by the jokes and songs I heard last year about the at least once common practice of sheep rape in the State of Maine. A radio station staff recorded a CD with many references accompanied by gfaws and chortles.
Jack – so what kind of ‘no-win’ situation are you putting me in now? If I ‘answer’ it’s taken as just something more to ‘argue’ with and an example of my ‘defensivenss’ or some other jargon you have picked up in your ‘studies’ your sport as you have admitted is ‘riling’ me up……………….so if I abstain from your ‘lure’ it becomes not answering the question. Somebody must REALLY have done a number on you………….where at over 80 y.o. you get your kicks from ‘provoking’ me……………anyway that said I agree with you here.
Did you hear that?!?!?! I AGREE with you……………..what will you do to/with that? How can you turn that into an ‘argument’
But seriously you are correct but you know yourself it is hard to find a ‘total solution’ to things though sorry I forgot you already have that “Abolish Money”
And please if you can don’t talk about it……………
Come on lads, square off now ; enuf of tha truce ‘n’ civility tripe. Fisties up, sarcastic jab, left cross ta tha funny bone… Humour, Humour….
> David,
> it was not clear to me you were not trying to ‘correct’ me and just explaining your personal view.
> so it felt you were judging me.
> therefor my question in the end, kind of what makes you so perfect, indeed a defensive reaction of mine.
>
> to go from there to call me nasty etc. and specially to say P is correct about me, seems again kind of judgamental, and disregarding all what has been said in the past, just labelling me in some attempt to hurt me.
> M
P. stands for Patrick……………….Patrick is my name…………….this is not even ‘ignoring’ but some weak semblance of ‘ignoring’…………….please I would like to be called by my name, don’t paint me as some ‘unspeakable’ or ‘pariah’ say my name………….I don’t wish to see/say this again………………..
So!!!!! What’s the feeling?????????
Jack
Do you know this Irish ditty, Patrick; from my old ma:” Patty wrote a letter ta his darlin’ Mollyo
Sayin, ” If ya don’t receive this
Write an let me know…”
David: My father had another one:- “Where were you going when I saw you coming back?”
I didn’t quite ‘get it’ when I was a kid and would retort “when was that daddy?”
Jack
No David I didn’t exactly but I know what you mean. Irish humor can be pretty good. A short one.
The Irish are planning a manned mission to the heart of the Sun. Somebody says are you mad you will be incinerated before you get there. Answer: We thought of all that we are going at night!
I liked that one … and laughed out loud.
Jack
Only you can decide if it doesn’t fit, Margaret. Generally I ‘m just a from whence it comes guy, nothing personally offends me. In real time, I only care what my kids and grand kids think of me. In real time I am kind, generous, nurturing, non sexist, non judgmental.
Catch me on one of those other days and I’ll answer your snotty nasties and sarcasm by verbally going all over you, and without filthy language. I don’t know you, your age, if you are fragile, none of those things that would have me temper my debate accordingly.
My huge issues are with an abusive mother who tried to destroy an angelic, bright, beautiful boy. She failed, “he,”, I, was retrievable. Just so you know.
> Sylvia,
> thanks for your comment.
> I’m glad Elsie returned, smiley.
> M
Your question:- “where at over 80 y.o. you get your kicks from ‘provoking’ me”
Real easy. I get a great (maybe perverted) kick out of provoking you because I know it gets you all riled up. You loved (seemingly) on entering this blog with a whole host of ‘blowing off’ about me (most of it true) … without let up … until I started to POKE you. Commonly referred to as cause and effect
Being 82 + y/o is not my favorite age, but so far I seem to be holding out and as yet (contrary to a prior wish of yours) I am not suffering a slow death … yet. It might happen sooner or later. Meantime I/we laugh a lot, specially with my Jimbo. I cry (I suspect) more than most out there, but that is no problem for me. I do get angry and yell about it; especially with all the police shootings and wars. Why, I ask, would anyone ever want to be a police or military person? putting oneself in harms way? Then there are the odd moments of fear and terror (old feelings bubbling up to the surface … mainly at night). Other things are:- I love dancing, singing, walking (not to far; half a mile or so), I love blogging and saying my party piece, I even love organizing things … but in someone else’s space, I have to compromise on that
However, all this is what I see as LIFE. Hope this answers (to some extent) your question.
Jack
That’s cool………………but you STILL go on an awful lot about something that happened over 3 years ago. Just sayin’ man!
Of course … Primal therapy is about bringing re-memories back into consciousness … never to return to the subconscious; again.
I also know it irks you to be reminded of your introduction (induction, or what you will) here..
Unless and until you can either go back to that moment and … in all honesty, state why you REALLY did it. OR, that you begin to see that you are the VERY CAUSE of your own irritations, irk-some-ness, anger … and it is YOU that is going no-where … (my feeling … observing and reading you, of course).
Jack
Sounds like you really care about Patrick.Jack. Can’t imagine hanging on putting myself out there and in for getting heck in return for someone I didn’t care about; and vice versa Patrick. You both could have just said fuck it and moved on. you’re obviously bright evolved men.
I’ll send you guys the address of my receivables accountant to remit my fees for my miracle savior treatment…. hah !!
Well if it works maybe you have some ‘miracle treatment’. I am open to miracles……………we all went to Lourdes (in spirit) as children so miracles are possible in my mind. In all seriousness I would like to make peace with Jack and I have ‘learned’ a few things the last few years I give him his props in certain and quite a few matters…………………but if he wants to just demean me and mock me IN PUBLIC that just cannot work.. if he is in any way ‘serious’ so am I. I am anyway………………
As far as your ‘fee’ you will be paid strictly by ‘results’ unlike Janov who made sure to collect all money up front lol……………we were speculating recently if say primal was to be paid for say over a period of two years quite a few would have been gone by about 6 months………………but Janov was ‘smarter’ than that…………..
In the culture of my ancient,, ( some 8000 years a distinct nation; – up to the early 1800’s,) culture of my Mi kmaq ancestors, their chief and counsel were paid at the end of each year, if the people agreed they had done a good job.
Wouldn’t that weed the ass draggers and nutty nuts out of our governments and commerce.
AT THE TIME YES AT THE TIME…………..Gretchen proposed a ‘joint session’ you wouldn’t you have ‘bragged’ often later why you didn’t, I said I was ‘sorry’ you didn’t do ‘sorry’ you said, I apologized’ I only did it to look good to other people.you said…………..you are just a full of shit primaller who WANTS to hold onto things forever and ever, you NEED that for some reason. If peace is not being made it is because AT LEAST one party wants ‘war’ (I read recently about the Middle East ‘peace process’ well there is no peace process because Israel NEVER wants peace, I see you in that way) even though you don’t want war you are too much of a faery for that, you want endless sniping and smart alecing. You are a full of shit primaller whose lifestyle is BASED on never ‘forgiving’ it maybe provides some ‘proof’ to you that primal is so valid………………see I can never forget. ………….so it must be true for EVERYONE…………..read my fucking ‘books’ and see how true it all you are a full of shit primaller…………….the worst kind………………
OK why did I REALLY do it? How about this I had it up here of your blackmail and threats, your lying and you constant need for ‘help’ and when for a change I needed ‘help’ from you you as usual treated my like an enemy. All of this we could have hashed out and trashed out but you wouldn’t’ you would rather ‘litigate’ it here as you have for over 3 fucking years now and you will go on and do that forever. You don’t WANT peace I don’t know what you want but it seems VERY important to you to keep up major blocks and then yak here about it…………….where it can never be resolved. If you REALLY want to know I am willing to talk to you with or without Gretchen or whomever. Listen good I am willing to talk and try to ‘resolve it but NOT HERE! It CANNOT be ‘resolved’ here you know that is that why you keep ‘proposing’ it??
I am sorry if I get a bit over heated but I am quite wiling to talk to but again NOT HERE. For your ‘safety’ as I can imagine that might be another fake issue by you Jim can be there, Gretchen, Barry, Janov himself but NOT IN PUBLIC. That should not be too hard to understand………………
Patrick: Your characterization of event is colored with what seems to me ‘a route to make you sound good’ OR … poor victim me, Patrick. I have related this story from my perspective on about three different occasions, only for it to be met by you as “lies, blackmail et al” without you tending your version of the event.
However I will state it again:- Prior to you asking me, some two to three weeks before your entry onto the blog; things between us were not (as I recall) that bad or terrible. Gentle Giant now in the hands of the new owners that you had given to them, were wanting to renegotiate the deal you had with them (my understanding that they were to pay you in perpetuity $10,000 a month, you offering no particular service).
You emailed me and asked if I would hand over to you each month the software development that you could then relay back to them. I saw that as you wishing to have leverage with them. I agreed to that with you, on the condition that you asked their permission to allow this detour. The next email from you was such a tirade towards me which I found to be unutterably unreasonable. I answered that email insisting that I needed their permission as I did not want to jeopardize my relationship with then, relative to providing monthly upgrades and getting my fee. Then another tirade ensued from you, bringing in matters that I felt were not relevant to the current wish on your part. I decided there and then I would not answer this second email. Then a third email came from you that was even more vitriolic.
At that point I decided that any communication with you on this matter was pointless and served nothing for me. Then I got a phone call, and when I realized that it was you I put the phone down. Then another phone call from you and I again put the phone down on you. Then a third one, for which I did the same.
The next move on your part was to come onto the Primal Blog, knowing that I frequented it, blasting away with all the venom I felt you were able to muster. You did get one “Rah rah” from one blogger but Gretchen came on and suggested to you that she did not like the hateful attempt to willfully hurt another, BUT that they did not bar anyone for commenting on the blog. There were (if my memory serves me correctly) several more rants, tirades and barrages from you until I finally responded that I did not like you anymore and wanted nothing more to do with you … in-spite of what ‘I deemed’ a pathetic and insincere attempt on your part to apologize in, what I considered was to “mend the bridge” I wasn’t having any of it.
When you then started to attempt to lambaste Primal Therapy; I then stepped in with what I call my “POKES” at you.
If your version of events are different then just present your case, and yes! in public. Merely suggesting that I am a liar and that you have done so, much to rescue the ‘poor little me’ from starvation and homelessness, doesn’t cut it with me.
There!!! I stated it again. Now: your turn.
Jack
> David,
> are you saying I have spoken to you in snotty nasties and sarcasms?
> in that case please adress exactly what I have said so I can understand and maybe even say I am sorry, but this feels just like hostility without a clear reason.
> I am not your mother and I am able to feel hurt.
> I am not into wisecracks and double messages, prefer openness and vulnerability.
> I have told you I felt defensive, if you still want to remain hostile well, I am not gonna get into a struggle about it, don’t need to defend myself for no reason really.
> M
Read your post to me Margaret. I’m not hostile. It has gone by. I’m just saying if you snipe at me on a day I’m raw I may come back unpleasantly.
> David,
> I have gone back to reread my comment to you that for me seeems to have triggered your reply, and that last sentence you refer to would be my asking you to have a look at yourself and see if everyting there is so perfect.
> what is so terribly nasty about that? specially since I went to the trouble afterwards of explaining to you I felt you were judging me for wanting to bring home a kitten .
> and by the way I am 57, you can ask if you like to know.
> so now I have reread the comment and I still dont see why I am being called nasty, so well, I can only supose it must be in the eye of the beholder..
> M
David’s mention of Mike Lewis……………..anyway I thought I would tell this little ‘story’ (all true)
I was somewhat of a regular ‘helper’ of his as it was called, my regular ‘driver’ as it was called was D. Anyway D. was a primal guy around for maybe 2 or 3 years and I quite liked him. He was very cool not bossy at all would say to me a lot ‘what do you think’. He was a bit phlegmatic but all in all a good guy and very trust worthy and truthful. I had no problems with him at all and considered him a friend though we did not socialize together.
Anyway I heard through the grapevine (Mike) that he was not so happy with D. Small things like he doesn’t count the ropes, he didn’t charge for the use of a wardrobe box. I felt the guy was fine and I’m thinking typical of M to nit pick shit like that. Like really ‘micky mouse’ stuff in fact later me and a friend used to just call him “micky mouse’. Micky Mouse Movers we liked the alliteration in that.
One morning M. tells us (me and D) that he is ‘demoting’ D and ‘promoting’ me to being the ‘driver’. I felt a bit embarrassed like I knew this guy was a very good worker and he did not deserve this. But anyway what could I do?
I remember sitting in the truck about to take off and I do I don’t feel good about this I really don’t want this and said I would (privately) split the difference in money with him. He was like no that’s cool don’t worry about it and I said well anyway I will. He is starting to eat a carton of yogurt as we are talking.
Off we go onto the 10 going east, past La Brea going near Crenshaw a sudden traffic ‘pile up’ or at least ‘sudden’ to me maybe not paying so great attention. I slam on the breaks I should mention at this point his ‘rig’ was a pick up truck hauling a ‘horse trailer’ behind (a real professional operation lol) anyway slam on the breaks the pick up takes a violent turn to the left and spins around and ends up facing traffic in the next lane. The horse box has got entangled in the truck but luckily (very luckily) no cars his us from the next lane.
I calm down……….Phew11………………look over at my new ‘helper’ erstwhile ‘driver’ and the yogurt is splashed all over his shirt. I go “So D what do you think or your new ‘driver’ then?
This is a totally true story not a word of embellishment……………..I have many many more if anyone cares to hear……………..
Oh my; I just picked me up off the floor. I thought I’d choke to death laughing. That was the same shit Mike was using when I worked for him. truck and pony rust color carpeted trailer. bring em on.
My comment about Led Zeppelin only cooler………………you can see I has set the bar real high but hey John Lennon did it and these guys Led Zeppelin are singing about communication breakdowns and they seem to be in similar territory to me so maybe yeah who knows. Anyway you can see my ‘fantasies’ were VERY big I ‘expected’ a lot which ‘explains’ my deep sense of disappointment when I got here
(Again Jack NO NEED to ‘defend’ your Faith I am just saying……………..that was me and I suppose embarrassingly so but I want to say it now……………..) I was/am quite ‘shy’ compared to Robert Plant.
Hey, girl, stop what you’re doin’
Hey, girl, you’ll drive me to ruin
I don’t know what it is I like about you, but I like it a lot
Won’t you let me hold you, now, let me feel your lovin’ touch
Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
Havin’ a nervous breakdown, a-drive me insane
Hey, girl, I got somethin’ I think you oughta know
Hey, babe, I wanna tell ya that I love you so
I wanna hold you in my arms, yeah
I’m never gonna let you go, ’cause I like your charm
Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
Havin’ a nervous breakdown, drive me insane, ow, suck
Communication breakdown, it’s always the same
Havin’ a nervous breakdown, a-drive me insane, yeah
Communicate, I want you to love me all night
I want you to love me all night, I want, hey, I want, yeah
I have an English friend who fantasied (as a result of primal) (sic) that he would play center forward for England in the World Cup when he could get time off from jamming with Pink Floyd and Eric Clapton and something else real ‘cool’ too.
I remember in my mind being a drummer for a ‘super group’ called “The Primal Blues Band” and oh what else…………..I might have to go back to Ireland to ‘save’ the country by becoming the Prime Minister or something. I by some magic would play goal keeper for Holland in the World Cup Ireland hardly ever made it and when they did they were no good. I FELT they were no good and neither was I……………..
David – OK last one another Mike Lewis story (all true)
After out little ‘accident’ it seems I was still ‘promoted’ still ‘driving’ same ‘helper’ he is cool like I said carries no resentments (not ALL primallers are that way) anyway Sunday morning in Orange County, ‘foreign’ territory a bit for us, warm day we show up in horse box and pick up.
Some problem with tools in like we don’t really have any, need to ask the customer for a wrench to undo the washer/dryer. Tense situation in the house, divorce looks like husband hostile wife friendly (to us). Have to borrow another tool (screwdriver) husband is getting hot under the collar I am never the best at calming a situation but you know not escalating it either.
For some reason husband looks outside sees our ‘rig’ totally loses it, what the fuck do we think we are playing at. Rampaging around the house picks up a hammer (for us?) situation is getting a bit frightening…………I remember him running through the house like a headless chicken. I say well sir it’s your choice if you do not want us to move you blah blah blah…………….that f…. right I don’t want you to move me. (I think he was also using it to stay with his wife a bit longer) so anyway we had hardly anything on the truck take it back in the house and get the f… out of there
I am the new ‘driver’ we race up the free way Sunday morning very little traffic flying along like get away from there as fast as possible. People start waving at us…………..I am like eff you leave us alone, it happens again I am still like leave us alone mind your own business…………..after a while D says to me they are STILL waving at us (Who are those guys??)…………and then we see smoke enveloping the truck. D says to me have you released the hand brake…………..oops NO!!
I look over at him and say “D your new driver is having some problems”
When is the book coming out?? I wrote you a short Mike story. Tacked onto a ramble. Not in your gut splitting style, I fear.
Jack – I will answer down here but again I am not really happy about this . This is more ‘public posturing’ the way I see it more just attempting of airing dirty laundry. if I felt you were ‘sincere’ I don’t know why you would object to a ‘meeting’ or a ‘session’ alone or with others you might want so I dunno this feels pointless……………..
I can say I acted impulsively and without really thinking a lot of things through……………..but you know this about me you have and did know me for a long time. I was in a crisis situation at that time and really I was grasping at straws and recently I have tried to take it step by step through in my own mind……….and I can see your points and why you acted the way you did
But and you should understand this…………it was literally a FEELING for me, I felt I had been there for you in a helpful way many many times…………….when you were ‘down’ I never turned you away or was deaf to you……………when I was ‘down’ I expected something similar I didn’t feel i was getting it but I accept from your point of view it might look pretty crazy
You might find this hard to believe Jack but I saw you in many ways as an exemplar of primal unlike me a ‘lapsed’ one………….and again I found this business of just hanging up the phone so opposite of what I thought of primal to be. Now maybe you ‘spoilt’ me in that I always felt I could talk to you and to suddenly be just hung up especially at a very low time in my life…………..well that was hard to take and I remembered you at those earlier times and it’s like now that counts for nothing.
But again Jack and you should understand this why are we making these kind of ‘factual’ points in public it’s not that I am ‘against’ in public but really do you want to make peace or not. i feel that I do I feel it would be productive to meet in some way. I now live about 6 blocks from you I will probably run into you one of these days…………….i dunno we still ‘litigating’ all this over the internet. I don’t like it it provides way too many loop holes for posturing and lecturing and spinning. I know you love blogging but not everything is some public show. You and I have done way too much of this I find it embarrassing but I suppose this is better than nothing or better than we have been able to do so far. I have ‘admitted’ some things here I can ‘admit’ some more but I dunno in public still does not feel right to me
I do see from this comment that you are making an attempt to, as I phrased it, “mend the bridge”. I am not willing to go there. It seems you are not willing to accept that. One minute you sound like you want something between us … then when it doesn’t happen, you are back to attempting to insult, berate or show that I am the nastiest. That constitutes to me someone that flips from one mode to, what appears to me, the extreme other.
I don’t like you anymore, and have no desire, even if I see pass on the street to even speak to you. It’s that simple. In the past I worked for you and later with you. That’s now come to an end. It’s for you to now accept that is where I am at with regards to you … the exception being when you start trying to re-organize and berate this therapy and/or Arthur Janov and his work. Since you are on the blog … and no-one is banning you … and I too am on the blog … and so far no-one is banning me; I will respond with what I call my “pokes” anytime you attempt to misrepresent this therapy, the theory supporting it, or Arthur Janov (not as a personality, but his work).
Others characterize it/us as the “Jack and Pony show” I accept their characterization.
Jack
I was going to say ‘I’m not surprised’ but actually I am. I always feel peace is possible, past hurts can be ‘forgiven’ and ‘understood’. To me there is deep truth and value in that. But well thanks for just telling me straight, part of this was for me too…………..I sometimes think ‘what if you die’ and then it is too late for real for ever. Now at least I won’t beat myself up so much if it happens at least I feel I made a serious attempt at peace and understanding.
You did help me a lot Jack in quite different ways but we are very different as people your strengths tend to be my weakness and vica versa I would say But as a team we did I believe create great software though you get full credit for the actual programming. But I think you would agree it took the two of us. The tragedy and I had a big part in this is not just accepting it takes two……………….I could never do it all by myself even if I tried I could not. And so it is in many walks of life takes me a long to realize that.
I probably the way it looks be back in Ireland in about 18 months for good I would say. So if you die I will probably be far away but I am glad even if maybe only for myself to have tried to reach out . I hope and believe I will have a clearer conscience about all that happened so in that way I am being ‘selfish’ too.
I am guessing you do this partly on ‘advice’ well that’s your business but my opinion for what it’s worth (nothing) is that ‘advice’ does not really serve you well. It is the same ‘advice’ responsible for the wrecking of your micro-biome and your dependence on drugs that have a large factor in making you the ‘dried prune’ you have become. So in a way I don’t take it so personal I know it has a lot to do with your ‘medicated’ status and your inability to look outside primal and get a bigger picture of what has happened to you. Instead you have become ‘fanatical’ about your ‘beliefs’ and you will spiral down the hole you have chosen……………..oh well it’s a bad habit of mine to try to ‘save’ people you have rejected that strongly. We will both have to live (and die) with it.
Just one simple response: I took no-ones advice about the whole matter. I went with my own gut feeling. If anything I was advised to the contrary.
Jack
I did not write these words Van Morrison did but it has a feeling of death or someone about to die, honestly I think that’s why now I reached out to Jack (and thanks to David’s good influence too) but I have a feeling death is near. Could be wrong and hope I am. Maybe it’s my death who knows it feels very bad karmas to me to walk on the other side of the street but just my feelings/beliefs each person goes their own way (to death)
Slim slow slider
Horse you ride
Is white as snow
Slim slow slider
Horse you ride
Is white as snow
Tell it everywhere you go
Saw you walking
Down by the Ladbroke Grove this morning
Saw you walking
Down by the Ladbroke Grove this morning
Catching pebbles for some sandy beach
You’re out of reach
Saw you early this morning
With your brand new boy and your Cadillac
Saw you early this morning
With your brand new boy and your Cadillac
You’re gone for something
And I know you won’t be back
I know you’re dying, baby
And I know you know it, too
I know you’re dying
And I know you know it, too
Every time I see you
I just don’t know what to do
How about those Lakers or Dodgers? What time of the year is it?
Shit !! B B King is dead. I read he was unwell and then perked up again. I never met him; went to a few shows. But in 1979 I signed with RCA Records Publishing arm, DUNBAR. and also got a contract to polish other writers work, $ 200,00 a pop. .Jack Feeney their A&R man phoned me one day. He’d been courting me hard. I was so important, so gifted. Mr Hardy, he says, I’ve got a music legend here,trying to sign him; he listened to your track and the two tunes you collaborated on and he wants to talk with you. Mr. Hardy says this kind sounding voice, It’s BB King. Son, you’ve got the gift and now you’ve got a fine record company behind you. All I could manage was, “” ththththanks…”He took my number and address and his publicist actually sent me some,” Requested Material,” envelopes, to send him tunes I wrote. BB never signed with RCA, he went with Mercury records. A year later I sided with another writer RCA had screwed and I was no longer Canada’s most important new song writer. Makes a good story now to laugh on…
David – to lighten the mood a bit more…………….I don’t really have so many great M. L. stories but I thought to mention this.
We had a crazy long day of moving for him, D. the same guy who was later ‘demoted’ was now the ‘driver’ and I was the ‘helper’ This was a BAD day the ‘low light’ of which was the customer’s mattress blow off on the Freeway and if my memory serves me well (not really sure of this but I think so) we went back around on the freeway and retrieved the (damaged) mattress. Yes I am pretty sure we did as I remember the customer complaining about the damaged bed (or was it the total disappearance of the bed – maybe that was it. Anyway I also remember having to make 2 trips so maybe we SAW the mattress on the freeway on our second trip
Anyway long story short – we are arriving back to the ‘office’ definitely that in quotes and we pass a U-Haul. It is around midnight and I have that tiredness that was in a way nice all tension drained out of my body almost is a surrealistic kind of state calm and strangely alert too……………anyway the sign at U-Haul is advertising their services with a slogan “An Adventure in Moving”
I looked at D and we both broke out laughing………………like why would they advertize THAT we just HAD one of those…………..it’s nothing to be proud of and nothing to desire yet here you have a nationwide company advertising that and trying to induce their customers to partake. We both concluded it’s like they are on drugs or something or WE are on drugs…………….the drug of outrageous adventure, the adrenaline of danger and just the sheer absurdity of it all.
And I thought probably tomorrow D will get in trouble for having lost one rope or something…………..
Mercy, mercy…
I have a few more ‘stories’ but like a proper series maybe I release them like once a week or something…………….don’t want to overload people here……………..
Oh boy just like waiting for Western Theatre….thank you Patrick. From now on I’m going to take my lap top to the floor to partake in your version of Monty Python….
dave
Has everyone gone on furlough in primal land ?? One day silent figured all off to church; 2 days…..
Feeling abandoned; again
My earliest writing, 8 or so by my spelling tells of, ” hate the rain, because I’m stuck in a house where no one wants me.” Later I would often just write, ” Here comes the rain again,” when I sensed a new friendship/relationship was fading. Struggle a little. Time to go away..I’ll die and then they’ll be sorry they didn’t love me.”
Those 5 words still can twist my face into a mask of agony Like now; Is that feeling or acting out ?? Just a neurotic way to keep the feeling of not being loved ?
Hi David, I was also wondering where everyone went. As a kid I almost always preferred leaving my house and going off with friends. Home was not a happy place. It’s a sunny day here last time I looked. No window in the room where I work. Phil
I think it got shut down for some repair work? Oh! maybe everyone decided to sleep in … but then I wouldn’t really know anyway. No accounting for what Primal people are up to.
Jack
Plotting, my lovely, Plooootting…. hee hee
David: Who knows !!! maybe poluuuuuting.
Jack
Hoooowwwwllll !!!!
OK proof primal works. I’m finally able to take ownership. It wuz me who broke it Jack. There , I feel better now.
David: I sort of knew you were up to something, being down under there. What’s it like living upside down ????
I’m in Nova Scotia, Canada, Jack, not Aussietralia; we’re just backward not upside doon….
David: does that mean you walk backwards … in that can of ada. That’s almost as bad as walking upside-down. Yeah !!!
Jack
Ya breaks me up , sir !!!! I recall when 1st in LA sorting out all of our come from away accents, making the near fatal accident of asking a Melbourne woman from what part of England did she hail…. Had an Australian take exception, at the bloody gas pumps, when, after telling me he was visiting from Adelaide, I asked about a newsworthy event in New Zealand.. He exploded, ” My god man, I’m from Australia, that’s a whole different country… blah, blah, blah. ” I said yes I knew that my son in law hailed from Angaston, on his doorstep, but I thought being geographically loser his take on the situation might be more accurate. He choked on his humble pie or a bumble bee or something, muttered something barely audible and stormed off. It struck me funny, as eruditeness often does, and I was leaning against the pump for support laughing my arse off.
David: “Laughing your arse off” Did you stick it back on again after filling the tank. You’d look real funny if you’d left it at the petrol station Geese, you Aussies, specially after leaving the place, talk real funny.
Yeah yeah! I know we Brits have a habit of talking with that hot tater in the mush, but you guys leave me wonderin if we did the wrong thing when we sent all those convicts to Aussieland and gave them rabbits to take with um.
Is aw this stuff therapy ????????????????
Jack
Just wanted to say really liked Letterman’s last show. It was a program that my mom and I always agreed on; that we liked Dave Letterman and his humor. It was good to see him with his friends and the appreciation they had for each other. In the look-back his little interviews with children was touching–you could tell he understood them. Will miss seeing him and his truth- baring wit. Never will forget him saying to one of his guests when they were going on and on about something; “Cut the crap.” Great guy.
S.
I fell asleep. I have not done a lot of Late Night Shows viewing, Letterman , et al, are past midnight airing here. I kept thinking , I must be missing the, how funny he is aspect of his public character. Colbert and Stewart slay me; but then I thrive on big shots getting it stuck to them and Republican politicians having their genetic code put on display. It’s the only one bar genetic code I have ever seen. Chimps have more bars.
Drove by a shop today that primarily sells clothing and hardware. A Large Lettered handposted sign read, ” Just Received New Supply of Letterman’s Better Beef.” On my return trip it was altered, reading ” SORRY, I meant to write, ” LEADBETTERS BEEEFF,” cracked me up…
This evening I was with some friends at a fund raising dinner for Nepal. The venue was a big church auditorium. There were maybe 300 people present, a lot of whom were East Indian, Pakistani, and Nepalese. Prior to the official ceremonies, an East Indian lady was up on the stage playing a sitar, and an East Indian man was playing taballa drums, creating an exotic, inviting, interesting atmosphere.
The ceremonies opened with a fellow on stage talking about the earthquake disaster, while images of the people in Nepal and the devastation were projected onto the main stage screen. The effect was to bring home to me that the earthquake was not just an item on the news, but a real natural disaster hurting real people right now, and that it could have been me instead of them that it happened to.
The master of ceremony said a long prayer before the meal, expressing mystification as to how God could let the disaster happen to His children, but then asking that good work be done in His name to reveal His true glory. Next an East Indian lady sang a beautiful rendition of the Lord’s prayer. For a few moments I was caught up in how comforting it would feel to believe in a greater power who looked out for us, cared for us and loved us, whose existence would help me believe in goodness and help give me strength and feel good to do good and right for others. That faith and belief is so alluring in contrast to reality as I see it, namely that there is no greater power looking out for us, that the earthquake was caused by recurring periodic natural movement in the earths crust that happen irrespective of our wishes, and that we are fragile, vulnerable bags of jelly in an infinite universe of powerful physical forces indifferent to our existence.
Instead of comforting faith and belief in a benign, nurturing greater power, it is so much more stark and empty to see the reality that there is no greater power out there caring and looking out for me, that I’m on my own in a universe that is stark, cold, empty, and can be dangerous. Sounds like a feeling coming up. Emptiness and aloneness is eating away at me, sapping the life out of me. I expect soon it will feel so all encompassing and debilitating that I will succumb to it.
Also makes me feel this therapy will never go mainstream. Who would ever want to face the emptiness of reality coalescing upon them! It’s going to drive me to a breakdown ( a primal).
When I was 10 I went to what had been my beautiful grandfather’s room, turned into a store room. Our defunct TV was there.I know now all it needed was a Vertical Hold vacuum tube. Anyhow, winter, grandfather dead, father out on the land on the trap line, no escape now from mother’s abuse. I had a chat with god. I’d asked him before to stop the abuse of my family pointing out that I was a very good boy. Guess he was too busy trimming his nails or beard. Anyhow….Told him if he fixed the TV I’d believe in him and for the rest of my life I’d tell everyone he’d fixed my TV and helped me in that way. Well I guess he never went to tech school either and sure as hell was a non communicator. Shortly after that day I went to secluded outside place to have it out. I knew he didn’t give a shit. Now I was going to test his all powerful shtick. ” Pee,” I said; we were only allowed to say,”wet,” for the need to urinate. “Poop,” I said; we were only permitted to say,”dirty, ” pronounced, ” dirdy.” Summing up courage and cringing, I said,” SHIT,” no bolt of lightening. Hell he couldn’t have hurt me if he did exist unless he’d made me swallow a line of fish hooks and then ripped them out of my gut and back up my esophagus.
I followed up with, “damn, god damn, and jesus christ.” I knew then I’d been sold a load of shit.
And I had no word for it then but on the spot. I became a non theist. Kind of like a drunk forced sober by circumstances; ie: can’t get any booze; He doesn’t have to belong to any mystical group or attend meetings.
I forayed back to church, I was janitor of all our community churches from age 14 – 19. I got my meals , gratis, at home after age 11; the rest I earned. I got outed as having a good voice and ended up in the choirs as a soloist; voice trained by a retired New York Metropolitan Opera Company, voice coach and former Primary Mezzo Soprano. More important I had access to ,”borrow,” two mikes for my rock band. Odd, at 14 I looked 20 and at 50 I looked 30. I also free lanced as lead guitarist with adult pop bands. On Saturday night I sat on stage with the , ” Harbour Lights,” , small, ” Big Band,”,dance band wearing my father’s fedora, and sporting an eye pencil mustache watching the good hell fire and brim stone Baptists get pissed and then several mixed marriaged , ( not married to each other,) partnerships would stroll outside, returning one good screw time later. Sunday morning I sat beside the minister in the soloists chair and grinned down at the same hypocrites and took great glee in watching them squirm. My 15 year old drummer took up educational relationships with some of those Baptist moms. He was Anglican and someone had told him to ,”… never shit in your own bed,” which I remember him telling me with an air of a man of the world sophistication. They also gave him, at his request,spending money and pints of Vodka, the booze of choice of the Fundamentalists.
I was even the lay preacher at the United Church. I never, “Believed,” ever again, though. The free voice training and the accolades were the only draw. Neither did the minister believe in all that crap, I later learned as an adult. A 6’6″ Armenian, impressive figure of a man, a fine caring humanist and a wonderful dad to his 3 kids. His sermons dealt with those human traits not ghosts, sins, and miracles.
I sat with my little girl for two days after her surgery, leaving her side only a couple of times to the rest room. I had a chat with my grandfather. Told hmi I didn’t believe in his god. But if I was wrong would he have chat with his god and ask him to spare Rachael’s life. I told him if he was right, believing, then it would be blasphemous for me to ask, and any way the bible says it’s a real biggy to try to bargain with their god. What horse shit eh.
Like electric gadgets, good thing religion has an off switch. Can’t believe many modern brains actually believes such nonsense.
… TRIBUTE IN BLUES, Mr Riley B ( Blues Boy / BB) King
David Hardy 15/05/2015
BB’s gone
Packed up Lucille an’ slipped away
Yea ea ah
BB’s gone
Packed up Lucille an’ gone away
You know a cold, cold feelin’
Settled in some hearts today
Can’t say for sure
When I first heard him
Was I, 8 or was I, 9
Can’t say for sure
When I first heard him
Was I, 8 or maybe 9
I think the song he was singin
Was Trouble in Mind
The notes from those magic fingers
They reached way down inside of me
yea ea ea ah
Those tremblin’ wails they triggered
Somethin’ , somethin way down deep inside of me
I think it was my true self
Tryin’ to get free
No new licks will be comin’
From the master’s hands
No oh oh oh
No new riffs will be comin’
From those master hands
But his gift will keep on giftin’
He left his master class plan
David, I took my son to see B.B. King last Oct. It seemed like a goodbye tour, he spent a lot of time talking and interacting with the audience but we enjoyed the show. Phil
David – did you write that? about BB KIng, Anyway I like it. Nice.
I am trying to grasp something at the edge of my consciousness here……………..but you mentioned doing moving and even my name………………I’m thinking but can’t quite recall a “David Hardy” who might have worked ‘for’ me if that is not too pretentious to say. It’s like one of those things/names I can BARELY recall but somehow I think I can but not completely sure. Also I can’t put any kind of ‘face’ to the name just the name seems to ring some bell.
About those moving stories about the only thing I learned from most of those movers was what NOT to do……………..so in that way it was a kind of ‘training’ training in what not to do…………..but still a kind of learning I suppose……………
Yep, PATRICK, I wrote the BB Tribute tune yesterday AM. You can sing it to the melody of Cold Cold Feeling, the same perfect melody to a couple million other blues songs. hah !!
I was sitting with a blues musician buddy when he was dying from spinal cancer; when he grins over at me and says ,Dave, you know the secret to writing a really, really great blues song ? I just listened. ” Well I woke up this mornin’,” he sings full growlin’ volume, head arched back and we both nearly choked to death laughing.
AND
Yep, I worked for an Irish Patrick on at least one job. Tom Foley recommended me. ???? We dismantled a TV Commercial Studio/warehouse; a repossession by Bank of America, I recall ?? It was a shell company in the name of the daughter, but owned by her father, a guy who was convicted of selling defective airplane parts to the military. Parts that had failed commercial airline x ray scans and sold for scrap., That Patrick with permission of the suit overseeing the job for the bank gave me a pair of Bauer Professional Hockey Skates and the sweaters and shorts worn by the NHL players who has shot an anti drug commercial at that facility. One Minnesota North Stars outfit had Bobby Smith’s name on the back.
I worked for Frank Mulhare pretty steady until I came back home for christmas. I got bumped by immigration on my first attempted return. They told me to never try to get back into the USA or I would go to prison, because they had information I had been working, rucking, in LA illegally. ( My ex, I guess.. The low life she’d been fucking dumped just before I got home in December. She also wrote the Institute and tried to get me kicked out. Said I had been disclosing confidential inf’n about fellow patients. Stupid me I saw a letter in our joint mail box addressed to her from the Institute and thought my big surprise was she had applied for treatment. I was so happy for her, and so proud of her courage.)They were a tough crowd, immigration. i had all kinds of documentation from my office and a certified cashier’s cheque for 5 grand, US funds. I stupidly had bought a return ticket through a friend working at LIU Airlines, Frank Doggett, originally from Maine. I had to return to Nova Scotia; cooked up a cover story with a friend in Boston , ” to visit.” to see some Bruins games and meandered across the USA back to LA. When I returned to LA I was sick with the flu for like 2 weeks. I had taken the funds back with me because I was determined I wasn’t going to work for Elephant Move any more on my down time between jobs with Frank. They weren’t really very respectful of their workers. I called Frank to let him know I was back and he dumped me, I guess because he would never speak to me again. I was heart broken. I thought we were friends. I did good work for him. Saved his ass once on a job with an other driver who crapped out under stress from the customer’s neighbors. Not a very adult way to behave. When I decide to be someone’s friend I jump in right to the family acceptance level.
I sent him a Facebook friend request and a, .” can’t we talk about this, 30 years later ?” but no answer. I read that he’s office manager for a moving company. I think he secured green card amnesty. I guess that still hurts because I’m crying now. I keep getting thrown away by people I’ve been good to and did nothing wrong to deserve it. That began at birth Patrick.
Fucking red ant in white ant hills.,
Come to think of it when, ” Patrick,” called me to offer me work, I think maybe it was Frank who referred me, huh…
I ended uo going back to Elephant move and worked well with their most notorious driver, John Rice. The strikers rolled their eyes and told me what a prick he was, he’d can me if I talked to him or didn’t fold the robes a particular way and suspend them just off the floor with ropes; and the ropes had to be done a certain way. Well Frank had taught me well. I didn’t say a word to John Rice; I just nodded every morning and immediately broke eye contact. After the third day. He said , ” You probably think I’m a prick for not talking. I’m scared to death I’ll get lost if I don’t pay absolute attention until 10 AM That’s when elementary school still goes in my mind. I’m in class then and I’m safe.” In time he chose to share his story. A lovely, kind, funny generous, guy; who introduced me to killer Falafels at the World’s Best Falafel House, hole in tha wall, in Santa Monica,on Pico. John was ex aeronautics engineer, who had to leave the profession because ya can’t not talk to your co geniuses until after 10 AM.
He built model planes and took me along to the modlers air field.
dave
And oh, per the Hardy curse, Patrick, you asked him if you could give me a pro MacGregor baseball ourfielder’s mitt. I still use it. Well shit…
Wow………..some of those names are really ringing bells with me. I think I even remember the job you are talking about the Bank etc. I was not there myself but yeah it was like a liquidation bankruptcy kind of thing and was paid for by the Bank. That was in the real early days early 1987 I am saying. So yes I think I saw your ‘name’ but I don’t think I actually met you.
I know Frank Mulhare very well was a roommate with him on Brooks Ave, he is Irish also.I don’t want to say too much more…………..he might be reading lol.I met all those guys you mention John Rice yes worked with him and even Frank Doggett I remember he ran some kind of travel agency thing was not a mover.
About being thrown away by people who you thought you were close to……………….don’t get me started. I have a notion about that which I have mentioned here before…………..I think ‘primal people’ are MORE apt to do it than the so called ‘repressed’ majority. They have all the tools and the trauma bond (their own) is in place and all the ‘explanations’ are at the ready (they don’t struggle etc)……………well you saw it here yesterday or at least I did. An old story of ‘religious’ folk who think they are so different in fact usually the same as the old only worse in many ways……………
People find ways of ‘balancing’ themselves out so if they have a THEORY of ‘expressing feelings’ they are LESS likely to actually really be that way. In my experience………………..
Wow: How you get your brain all in a twist; Quote:- “People find ways of ‘balancing’ themselves out so if they have a THEORY of ‘expressing feelings’ they are LESS likely to actually really be that way. In my experience………………..” I take it you are talking about Patrick Griffin having a THEORY about expressing feelings????
People that EXPRESS their feeling don’t have and have, nor need a theory about it. The only theory relevant and talked about here is Primal Theory. Should your brain not run to it. Having a theory about NEUROPHYSIOLOGY is not the same as having a theory about “expressing feelings” That’s a verb …, an action … something one does. Like walking. You don’t have to have a theory about walking to walk. Duh!!
It is my experience from reading you on this blog that the one person seemingly NOT ABLE to express his feeling; is none other than Patrick Griffin.
Jack
Ah Jack, so warm and fuzzy. I mean that with all respectful humor, Jack. I never deal out sarcasm.I really have become fond of you and Patrick.
No I was specifically thinking of you when I said that. I believe it to be very true in your case.
Even yesterday I wanted to move towards peace and fixing things……………..you seem to prefer war and broken things
Each to his own………….I just wish you would ‘ignore’ me you have made it clear you want to ‘resolve’ nothing so just leave me be then
Wait now for another ‘attack’………………..
“No I was specifically thinking of you when I said that. I believe it to be very true in your case.” So !!! why didn’t you say so directly or indirectly???
“Even yesterday I wanted to move towards peace and fixing things…” If you knew how to create peace it would be easy … seemingly you don’t
“I just wish you would ‘ignore’ me ” No such luck … I just love poking you .. sort of like you seemingly love all the vitriol towards me. It’s a ‘Jack and Pony’ show .. remember?
“Wait now for another ‘attack’………………..”
Jack
Huh, I really thought you were there Patrick at the beginning and the end of the job after we’d torn the thing apart and packed it up for the repossessor to move it into quarantine. I became brazen asking for stuff and asked, I thought ,you, to ask the bank rep who watched the work lime a hawk if I could have that stuff. It blew Frank away that I would ask customers for stuff they were trashing. I got 2 gross of custom made shirts from Cosmetics mogul David Evans who we moved to Lost Hills, Vegas
I never had to launder a shirt the rest of the time I was there. I merely ripped the sleeves and the collars off. from Oscar Cosmetics supplier David Evans who we moved to Lost Hills Nevada. Fuck that was a trip. We had two trucks. We stopped at a truck stop for grub that was straight out of , Deliverance.” WE fucking escaped from there !!! David Evans’ partner, George, took a shine to Frank. They invited us to stay over with them. We declined. Shit it was a scene. We never got a fucking penny in tip from them. We went into Caesars Palace at 2 AM or so because Frank needed to use the Bank Machine..Filthy from a two truck load in the Valley. Wearing shorts and Frank in a sports coat that was a copy of, “Joseph’s Coat of Many Colors.
” Fuck ….
Shit., my ” archives” still work well. On the way back we had to make a delivery to David’s daughter in Lake Echo, Nev; . I totally freaked out scaling that fucking mountain, road, bolted onto the face of the mountain like LEGO; a zillion bloody feet above sea level. I had to leave my truck part way up.
We transferred my stuff to Frank’s truck. I was ok driving back down in daylight. It was the morning after Hallowe’en. I saw the worst thing I’d ever seen. the remains, a torso in a white blood soaked t -shirt. I stopped, spell bound. .A trucker stopped and told me to get out of there or I’d end up charged for it. Someone waited for that person, forever.
I can half picture you. Dark hair, pretty capably built guy, maybe barrel chested ??
Yeah, I met you at your place on Brooks, Venice. I was there twice, once answering a co-renter wanted advert and once when Frank was moving a family out of Venice who objected to drug soldiers shooting up their windows. It was a three man job, the third , I think Peter Crummy, so the truck box was never left unattended. hah/
I’m Canadian, 5′ 11″, had dark blond thick longish hair until Francis/Frank convinced me short hair would be more appropriate for a man my age, 39 yrs then. Always grinnin’, unless crying… I arrived in LA, August 86, 238 lb obese; left 190 lb, 44″ chest and 32″ waist. I’m Canadian, we apologize when someone steps on our fingers or toes ..Can’t miss us. We’re notoriously polite.. ha My Irish maternal grandfather was not known for being too nice; peaceable but…. He was among the Irish
child refugees to North America in 1865.. Raised by a German Family. I don’t even know what his Irish birth name was. My Canadian born Irish/ Dutch uncles sounded like they’d just gotten off the boat from Ireland, their brogue was so thick.
When I arrived in LA in Aug 86 you guys were advertising for a roommate, on Brooks; interviewing candidates. I thought that odd. Back home we’d just say, ” come on in.” And then suffer in silence if it was a disaster.
Buddy who owned the company being liquidated was convicted of fraud, human endangerment, and being a heinous human, , and lost everything on his way to prison. It was a major news story.
I wish I could have worked it out with Frank. I really like the guy. SWe had a bunch of laughs and worked well together. He was going to take me flying with him after the December break. I drew a caricatured business card for him, depicting him navigating the moving truck. He looks a bit like Richard Dreyfuss so it was easy to draw.
I’ll tell you my plumber’s helper job some time; it’s a good laugh.
dave
David – yes ‘you’ are coming back to me, but I am not the most observant person. i am pretty sure I did meet you but I cannot recall any specifics. Anyway it’s not important but sometimes I like to ‘push’ my memory as some kind of exercise. But now that you mention it I do remember Frank was the driver on that bankruptcy job but I was back in the ‘office’ (in quotes again)
It’s interesting kind of going over some of this kind of stuff it actually stirs up feelings……………..I have a lot to look back on and a lot to regret
No Frank wasn’t on that job. You are correct it, was early 8; I left April/May to return after receiving word my wife got pregnant, had an ectopic pregnancy and abandoned our children.
Frank never spoke to me after Dec 86. Never saw him again.
Watching , ” Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.” A friend recommended it,. She said the girl really fucks up a perverted probation worker. There’s a scene where the heroine sutured the Daniel Craig character’s facial injury with a sewing needle. Bang I was briefly jetted back to age 6. We were in the bush for the summer. I hung a barking knife on a limb and it fell and landed razor sharp blade on the web of my right thumb. My thumb just dropped as the tendons were cut. I could see all the white connective tissue. My father reattached the tendons and sutured the cut using catgut fishing line and a small trout hook with the barb snipped off. I don’t know if he used the words or if it was in his touch but he told me I was stupid. The feelings rushed up just now, I asked him why he thinks I’m stupid; that it hurt me and that I’m not stupid. Then I asked why he hates me and the feelings disappeared and I couldn’t bring them back,. huh….Along with the emotion was a violent pain behind my knees, uppermost calf. I have always had the exact same sympathetic pain seeing or sometimes just hearing the account of someone’s painful injury.
That’s the first primal scene ever to appear like that. For me it’s always just been feelings, except for the rape scene as an infant – early toddler.I’m face down. Can’t see the family member who did that. Don’t know what I’d ever do if I discovered it was my wonderful grampy.
What a horrific way to treat a child!
What aspect IS,” HORRIFIC,” , to you, Larry. The , ” back country surgery,” was not a problem for me. It was the only choice.It was brilliant. He was brilliant, superiorly competent in dozens of skills and talents, ecologist, writing, poet, woodsman, canoe builder, church steeple painter, worked without safety harness of course; canoeist, hunter, fearless wild animal rescuer, trapper, shooter, a true STRONGMAN, but 5’5″ maybe; a trick sharpshooter, professional sportsman competitor, internationally sought out sports guide, hair stylist/barber, clock and watch maker, jeweller, electronics tech, totally and perfectly ambidextrous, perfect body strength, dexterity and reflexes, peri- sidedness , the balance and stealth of a cat, He could still do one arm chin ups and execute a clean , ” skin the cat,” gymnist movement when he was 88 years; a fine cabinet builder, tailor, dress maker, custom knotted button holer, hat maker, logger, chef, pastry chef, painter, multi instrumental musician, domestic and wild animals and birds flocked to him like he was family., devoutly religious , an ordained Christian Adventist Cleric,but not a proselytiser; never a braggart.
I adored him, I was terrified of him, that look. I dreamed of him always the same, killing me with an axe.
He was loving to me as a baby. Held me, rocked me, looked into my eyes.. Wanted to be there for me when I was sick and injured. It ended by age 5 and he hated me, what I was; wished I wasn’t his son.
Christmas 86, I came home from LA.. He told me he loved me. I’ve always been huggy, cuddly guy, always told him I loved him. He said it and I thought I was going to freeze to death. I never ever told him I loved him again. I nursed him uninterrupted the month of his dying. He talked incessantly about my perfect brother. I knew he’d been kind to me when I was a helpless baby.I wanted to give him the same genuine loving unconditional escort from this life. He died holding my hand as we ,”paddled across the lake to, the cove.” ” It was you I always took there, Donald ” were his final words. I squeezed his hand. My perfect brother was in the hall trying to seduce the nurses. He came in when I succeeded getting his attention, to beatifically pronounce ( he’s a High Anglican deacon), ” Look he’s in the arms of Jesus now,” an arm around the waist of each nurse who flanked him. I was invisible.
Oh, in case anyone wonders, I have had feelings about those events.
I realize I’m just saying what you all know, but; when a significant other dies that ends the possiblity of continuing the struggle, and any possible resolution. I hope I don’t leave anyone I love with that rest of life sentence.
” Each of us has friends, and we love them,
So before life’s story ends, why don’t we tell them so?
All the feelings we had stolen, when we were young
Is this as far as we can come ?
See, the people, falling to the ground
Looking like their hearts will break with pain
Like the story in the poets’ songs
Hope I’m never called on to explain
Why we hide or hopes so well
That no one can tell, we ever had a dream
All those feelings that we forced down
When we were young
Is this as far as we’ve come
All the pain that has chained us
Since we were young
Why do we leave those chains undone
Are you kidding! Being hated and told you are stupid by your father when you are 6. Being raped as an infant. I’m wondering why you even ask.
Oh, no sarcasm intended, Larry; I’m big on clarification. I thought maybe it was the hill billy surgical feat. Thank you. Yeah life with the Hardy’s was not as much good luck as relatives often told me.
If you happen to read my epistle which mentions my perfect brother; he further endeared himself to me by fucking my first wife X times and attempted with my 2nd. He died a few years ago. He’d fucked most of the women at his funeral, grandmothers, mothers, their daughters and grand daughters. They were all sitting with his wife and daughters, all weeping uncontrollably. He was a full fledged deacon at his Anglican Church. He always had an angle how establishing friendships would benefit him. He got two free homes built for him, on and on. He gave new meaning to the saying, ” Luckier than a shithouse rat.”
I had to fight to maintain my composure at his funeral as looking at all of those people started a review of the tragic comedy to play in my mind. When he finally confessed to me by phone, 2 am, under the courage of a 24 beer, he said he figured he’d,” made me feel better because he certainly did.” His greater mission was to bring me back to god. I think I may have mentioned both fucking and god in my immediate response. I think he had passed out because my line went out of service and he didn’t speak any more.
On the other side, years now, of feeling about that little disclosure, I am laughing. Because in the eyes of all those who “, DIDN’t ” know that God fearing Jesus loving man best,” he’s a fucking saint. I could probably get an audience with Francis by just dropping his name.
I’ve never met you, but given what you’ve written here about your family and your growing up, it’s amazing you are as sane as you come across to me to be, if kind of quirky. You must have incredible survival instincts and a good soul.
My sustaining defense was to love everybody. I met a healthy mentor early in my 20’s who introduced me to Primal. But we weren’t really pals. I am absolutely sane. I trust too easily; getting better at that. I have never had a friend who didn’t betray me. I’d like to have that. Someone who would have my back. Someone who respects my opinion as much as I do them. I hope to meet a woman to fall in love with again. I love being in love and I’m really good at being a partner. Unfortunately I have always awakened closed down women who then go on like 19 year olds having discovered the best candy in the world. Wonder how a person can look across a room and spot an extrovert who is actually emotionally unavailable.
I was very sick with a nasty virus and dealing with a spinal injury, December and January. My, ” best,” friend knew I was in pain and couldn’t even walk some days. I can see his house from mine. Friends and former band mates for 40 years. I saved his life twice. He lived at my house for a year while recovering from homelessness and addictions.
I never heard from him until February when he was climbing the walls from dealing with his new wife and he needed a pack of cigarettes. I crawled to my car got his cigarettes, delivered them and he said thanks and that he needed to go for a nap. You cannot touch narcissists only admire them. I know what the score is. I make a conscious decision to take left overs. That’s all I got as a kid,
I have feelings about that, Larry, hurt, anger, sadness from the hopelessness; cry my heart out. But it doesn’t alter the reality of surviving in the real world.But in LA, I didn’t have any friends either; just people that simulated friendship as long as I propped them up. I had a woman who one time took me camping with her to Oxnard, as I found out because she didn’t want to go alone. She did come around to say goodbye when I left to come home.
Yesterday my friend was at work and got called to do a gig after work. His wife wouldn’t let him use her car to drive home to get his gear. She’s a control freak. So he phoned and I dropped off one of my guitars, amp, pedal board and stuff. Ended up he didn’t play so he had me drive him home. By then it was 7 pm. He said he was going to have a nap. So I came home. But he was really going out with his wife and her cool friends, who still have the emotional maturity of 14 year olds but make huge money. And she can struggle with their alcoholic personalities that mimic her father’s.
I should tell him to fuck off, but there are 8000 people in our 4000 square mile county; someone to occasionally talk to beats nobody.
Guess that makes me sound pretty pathetic.
I’ve rambled on enough. Turn me on and I don’t know when to stop. Oh it was at sweat lodge 2008, someone told their sad story, and remarked that their experience was beyond the understanding of my perfect life and my permasmile.. So I shared a little. That person has never made eye contact with me since. Fucked up his image of me. I’m not supposed to be human.
|I’m tired of that, too.
gudnite, Larry, wherever ya are. Thank you for caring.
I was traumatized when I first starting hanging with professional musicians. A song writer and an absolute sook, I wrongly assumed that these giants of song who wrote those feeling drenched ditties were my kind of people. Most were completely devoid of feeling and absolute women using / abusing, people using pricks. They may have had feelings when they wrote and first performed their songs. By the time I played with them they were juke boxes, put some dope in get a tune out. They used their wives like shit. Like my brilliant non physically abusive father; he hit me once; but hated me; they left their wives often in middle of no where housing with no money to fend for themselves; wouldn’t fix a fucking water pump or the wives cars.
David – it seems you write in a great rush – I know that feeling and I do it too, actually at time I love that feeling feels ‘creative’ in a way that I hardly ever feel other wise. But something tells me to tell you try slowing down a bit. The words tumble out in a great rush and I find myself ‘skipping’ over them a bit. If you try to convey too much you run the danger of conveying less at least at times
I hope you don’t mind it’s not meant as ‘criticism’ but I think you have been a re-refreshing voice here and in my ideal blog/world we could help each other and give each other tips without causing offence and fights. That just my impressions of you.
Accepted in the spirit offered, Patrick, thank you. Yeah I feel an urgency ,kind of like the memory, the thoughts may get lost before I get it down. I tend to live in a rush; odd, physically I move slow as hell. what’s that state called that is actually impossible to exist ? hmmm,oh ” multitasking.”
I have been reading a lot about vaccines………………I found this very interesting. It is about so called SIDS which stands for “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome” which used to be in the news quite a bit. Not so much now just accepted?? or no longer news worthy?? I don’t know.
“According to Harris Coulter PhD, “Crib death” was so infrequent in the pre-vaccination era that it was not even mentioned in statistics. It started to climb in the 1950s with the spread of mass vaccinations. So much so it even acquired a new name-“SIDS,” Sudden Infant Death Syndrome of unknown origin. The medical establishment assures us that SIDS is unrelated to vaccines which begs the question; How do you know its not vaccines if it is of unknown origin? The three primary doses of DPT are given at two, four and six months of age. Eighty-five per cent of SIDS deaths occur from one to six months of age, with the peak incidence from two to four months. Another coincidence?
In a recent study of SIDS, breathing was monitored before and after vaccination. The data clearly showed that vaccination caused an extraordinary increase in episodes where breathing either nearly ceased or stopped completely. This is why it is so important to have our babies sleep on their backs, if you plan on vaccinating. It is easier for them to breath. Another problem associated with breathing is Asthma. Vaccinated children are shown to be five times more likely to become afflicted with this serious respiratory ailment.
Dr. William Torch of the University of Nevada School of Medicine did a study of 103 children who died of SIDS. He found that more than two-thirds had been vaccinated with DPT prior to death. Of these, 6.5% died within 12 hours; 13 % died within 24 hours; 26% died within 3 days; and 37, 61 and 70 % within 1,2,3 weeks respectively. Anything that happens to a baby after four weeks is considered God-given. The average time it takes for a vaccine to dissipate in the body is 10-12 days. Click here for Dr Buttram’s explanation. Even if a baby dies immediately after a vaccination the cause of death will be labeled SIDS”.
SIDS would make a good study Patrick. There’s a report in one of Arthur’s books, maybe,” the Feeling Child,” that found similarities between SIDS and suicide victims. Another of his investigative studies showed moms of Primalees dealing with particular issues reported having undergone life threatening events at about 7 months gestation.
. A study by Dr. Henry Kempe, Colorado, in the 70’s showed the SIDS babies they studied had all had, ” Hard Births,”. Hard birth was defined as premature, post mature, with physical signs of fetal distress: ie: meconium staining / the presence of fecal matter in the amniotic fluid at birth,
When I was doing my research, there had never been a recorded case of SIDS where there was another human in the same room at the time of death; and like the Janov study, regardless of how young, the infant had always changed body position from how their caretaker laid them down to sleep.
I am not a pro – vaccinator and am suspicious of the effects of any toxins injected into our bodies, and that of little kids; aluminum, mercury, the Thimerisol carrier. A Naturopath colleague who is also an expert in pharmacology says the combination vaccines are a further danger.
One argument that puzzles me is if vaccination confers total immunity on the vaccinees, why the worry that the non vaccinated child poses a risk to them ???
I try to maintain a healthy paranoia filter but man to believe there really is a world based mind control conspiracy is a bit to swallow.
David – right there you have asked the right question. IF it confers ‘immunity’ what are they so afraid of from non vaccinated children? It doesn’t make sense like any of their arguments if you delve into them.
Like a lot that Janov says I am a bit skeptical……………..not that he is so wrong but he always attempts to shoehorn a problem into HIS paradigm. And misses the boat as a result.
This business about the infant needing to lay on it’s back and to watch that it does not lay on it’s front hardly makes any sense. I imagine that the infant lays down on it’s front to die it ‘wants’ to die or it is time for it to die from the shots not that it can’t breath in that position. About another person being in the room I would be skeptical of that also from what I have read these infants/children often die in the parents arms
And it is not only what I read, last Saturday I met a woman I know quite well……………anyway we got to talking about vaccines she said a friend of her’s had ‘missed’ all the early vaccines the child was 4 y. o. anyway she was told/convinced she needed to ‘catch up’ on her vax schedule and did…………….that evening the child DIED in her arms. So I would say there is something MORE going on than a ‘hard birth’ or nobody being in the room.
Janov is great and everything but it is always his tendency to as I call it ‘shoehorn’ the evidence that has made him so irrelevant in the world of science and actually in the world as we live and it and know it – all of course IMHO…………….
It was the research of Colorado Pediatrician and child abuse prevention expert advocate, Dr. Henry Kempe, et al ,beginning in 1960 that I was studying when I was involved with investigating child abuse and SIDS deaths events. Clinical hallmarks of Unexplained Sudden Death in Infancy included that the baby was always alone, had always moved to a different location in he crib, and had assumed a fetal position; and was never over 9 months of age..
In all other cases a cause of death was found at autopsy.
Dr. Kempe was able to verify the , ” hard birth, ” component, in 1962. We were able to practice prevention by simply assuring that the at risk baby was never left alone; slept in the parents room, was carried in a front Snuggly, never alone in a rear position car seat, until the babe had passed the 9 month risk to die unexpectedly cut off. Incidentally those babies were also at higher risk for child abuse.
,
In several cases I investigated, the baby had been murdered and the doctor and the undertaker failed to report the condition of the body.
I studied with Dr. Kempe
A medical research team that Janov commissioned delivered the independent report. that found similarities between suicides and SIDS babies. A much later and separate team dealt with a feeling level specific group whose mothers were interviewed and they volunteered that they each had suffered a life threatening experience at about 7 months gestation.
I agree Arthur erred in not ensuring Primal Therapy became an available choice wherever psychotherapy is practiced. I am guilty of that protective behavior, too, Patrick, but because I could not trust other staff to treat patients, competently and respectfully.
But I believe it is unproductive and misdirected to piss all over the man just because he breathes.
David – that’s very interesting. However your last sentence I find strange in the extreme. To me shows the kind of ‘primal touchiness’ where anything but worshipful praise of Janov is ‘pissing all over’ him??? That’s why PT is sometimes called ‘cultist’ To make it easy on you I will give you the 2 things I said about him here again…………….is that really ‘pissing all over’ him
First Quote “Like a lot that Janov says I am a bit skeptical……………..not that he is so wrong but he always attempts to shoehorn a problem into HIS paradigm. And misses the boat as a result.”
Second Quote “Janov is great and everything but it is always his tendency to as I call it ‘shoehorn’ the evidence that has made him so irrelevant in the world of science and actually in the world as we live and it and know it – all of course IMHO…………….
If he is so great how come the therapy as constituted is effectivly dissapearing? Something went wrong somewhere along the way……………
I don’t know the answer Patrick, but I think it is in part a result of the decision to keep therapy under close ,” quality,” control that resulted in Primal no longer being on everyone’s tongue.
I know in my country Allopathic / MD drug pushing medicine worked hard to defame and ridicule the theory of Primal from the get go. AA members and drug addicts were insulted that Dr. Janov classified their addictions as the product of neurosis/mental illness. They like to delude themselves into believing they have congenital physical diseases, incurable and only controllable by drugs and daily dib dib dibbing and dob dob dobbing to their christian god.
Our mock Primal center charged the fee of sticks of gum, or 10 cent bags of dulse to people who could not afford to pay, allowing them the dignity of a symbolic choice of treatment.
We had the cooperation of an oddly healthy middle aged Brit psychiatrist in the beginning.
Mental Health was happy to allow chronic patients to be accepted into treatment, I witnessed catatonic schizophrenics, heal, reversing the path if you like, from psychotic to neurotic to just normally fucked up like me. Our patients came from all over the world.
As soon as chronically mentally ill patients and alcoholics got well, meds free, and idol worship free, then the medical and psychiatric community and AA came after us.
Our Director was so excited with the results that he agreed with a patient request that they hold a symposium to share their grand fortune with doctors and the community at large. At that meeting several former hard core alcoholics told how they were able to drink safely. That was as blasphemous as soiling a christian religious statue with male bodily fluids…
The final straw came when we accepted a 32 year old , ” schizophrenic,” young woman, daughter of a male psychiatrist and mother pediatrician.with a history of long term closed psych ward containment. Long story short, she healed from the pain of her parents ritualistic sexual abuse from age 10 – 14, when she made a disclosure of sexual abuse and her father had her committed, treated with courses of ECT and Chlorpromazine for nearly 2 decades until an aunt rescued her.
That was the final nail in the coffin of Primal clinics of Atlantic Canada. .
I am a fair person, Patrick, and I would rather there be a private way to say this. I know I have at least a 100 % chance of being wrong; I have no desire to give anyone extra fodder to piss on you. What I say is said without mean spirit or trying to be so smart; but, when you write about Dr. Janov your hate for the guy is palpable, I can taste it. I hope you take this in the spirit I offer it. And I’m not interested in changing anyone’s opinion about anything. What do I know ??
I believe that Dr. Janov’s discovery should be the hallmark of psychotherapy, not an obscure cult class alternative..
I have seen the the damage done by the mind fucking games of conventional psychiatry and psychology with their DSM dial a diagnosis, ECT, lobotomies, the manipulative condescending dialogue and mind controlling drugs, including the needless suicides. I witnessed the physical and sexual abuse of committed patients.
I am not know for my blind or easily solicited praise, Patrick. My level of creature comfort would have been better if I was.
david
I was an uneducated sheep when my kids were small. We accepted vaccinations blindly. They were ill after every vaccination and it was called a normal response. It was an anti Rubella vaccine injected into my wife when she was exposed to German Measles in her first Trimester of pregnancy that was deemed the probable cause of our baby girl’s congenital heart deformity; transposition of the great vessels.
Vaccinations are neither tested for safety nor efficacy in humans.
David – I am so sorry to hear that. Apparently now that is the new ‘trend’ (I am not saying that was the case with your wife) but the new ‘trend’ is to vaccinate in utero which makes sense from their demented viewpoint. In other words vaccinating against Hepatitis B at one day old is not QUITE ‘safe enough. We need to get them while in the womb. That way they can emerge into this super dangerous world of bugs and germs ‘armed’ and ‘defended’ by their so called vaccinations
Kind of an interesting twist on the Catholic thing where we born a ‘sinner’ or ‘impure’ we needed Baptism to wash away our ‘sins’. Now it’s the world that is ‘impure’ it is full of bugs and germs that the infant must be inoculated against. On balance as ‘bad’ as it was i would take the Catholic version every time
From my reading I have become convinced that ALL vaccinations are either dangerous or just worthless and ineffective but the real tragedy now is they get the children/infants so young and so many shots.
I was taking to my brother in Ireland and they have just come up with ANOTHER one cattle have to vaccinated against. A neighbor told him it’s 2 shots and something squirted up the nose and costs 20 Euro. Can you imagine the money in that (there are lots of cattle in Ireland) and the result will be further weakening of the herd.and discouraging of the farmers. A crazy and bad world we live in………………again to sort of turn the Catholic thing upside down. So it’s like it is true what the vaxxers say but ironically it is BECAUSE of what they do there is nothing inherently ‘bad’ about the world. Another of those self fulfilling prophecies……………
Yep, we keep fucking with, ” normal,” and then the abnormal becomes the new normal. I tend to just say what I believe is true but most of my fellow Naturopaths and MD’s who are kindred spirits only speak their mind behind closed doors, scared of being black listed as ubernuts…
The history begins in earnest in the late 1800’s when the Hearsts, Rockerfellas, Duponts, Emersons, bought political favor in return for being president makers. Alloparhic Medicine , (MD’s,) cut, burn and poison , aka surgery, radiation, and chemical drugs, They killed natural medicine and with their acquired monopoly replaced it with their wealth making machine. Now Big Petro owns Big Pharma, and patents on all medical machines; that owns all of the Hospitals that own all of the Medical Clinics…….. And they are currently making that monopoly around the world. Australia just enacted laws that says if you refuse to have yourself and your babies vaccinated the government will not sign any government generated cheques payable to you, pay cheques, social security cheques, baby bonus, etc.. A buddy of mine says that the fascists are set to take over as soon as the christianity organized crime bosses die off.
The AMA killed, breast feeding, vaginal delivery, babies being raised by their mamas, and home baking and home cooking. I believe that explains a good deal of the impairment of natural immunity.
The same scenario made the little known and unimportant orange the King fruit of America.
>
> I must confess I also started recently to ‘skip through’ a lot of the comments, and had completely missed David talking about being abused in his childhood.
> just to be clear, it is not only your comments I started to only read partially, David, it was anyone’s mostly, the long stories about movers or the details of primal theory being right or wrong etc., sorry, too much of it, for me at this moment I guess..
>
> David, I still think you probably misinterpreted something I wrote as being ‘nasty’ to you, wish you’d have answered to that one, but well..
>
> this goes for Patrick as well, in my opinion when we are ‘lashing out’ to someone, it is not enough to say ‘that is why I did it’, or in serious cases, even an apology does not necessarily make it all right again.
> don’t get me wrong,I am actually a good ‘forgiver’, really.
> I guess what I want to say is forgiveness being possible is not a free ticket to just be allowed to say or do whatever expecting it will not have lasting consequences.
>
> if things like that happen just one time too often, it seems just a healthy reaction to stay clear as much as possible from the person that caused hurt or behaved in an offensive or hostile way.
>
> it then for me can only change when I get the feeling that person is adressing on more than a superficial level what caused his or her behaviour, and expresses to be sorry in a genuine way, which can only be one’s own personal subjective response then, whether and to which w
> extend one feels willing then to make peace again or not.
>
> but this goes for Jack, I wonder why if not wanting to make up, which I can understand, you still want to ‘poke’?
> I am not saying it is wrong or right, but curious why really you do it, what feeling makes you want to do it.
> and please, don’t just say ‘it is fun’, I htink it is more than that.
> is it anger, or defending your teritory, not wanting to give in, fear?
>
> really, just curious, I don’t count on an answer really, it would be nice, but well, just expressing myself here..
> M
I like most everything you say there Margaret including what I have to ‘learn’ it can be a painful lesson. Honestly I took primal as benediction for any and all kinds of expressions/insults whatever etc. Well anyway I find that is not the real world so have to pretty much take that on board.
I think Freud talked about that like if one is to lift one’s own repression the world does not just change for you……………the world is still the same.
I admire the way you come through things you are a fighter but also a forgiver…………..I think that is a good combination.
I want to apologize to you also about coming on so strong about vaccines etc…………the thing is when I get ‘passionate’ about something I want to tell the whole world so to speak. I understand all of this hit you from left field you were kind of just in the way. I did not plan any of this I asked you about your cat and vaccinations just at the beginning of this and then learned and found out more and more. But I know you were an un-suspecting person on the road who sort of just got ran over
The only thing I would suggest now is think just a bit about what you will do to your ‘new’ cat if you get one. DON’T take the word of vets etc to me that is the beginning of lots of mistakes. It’s interesting too my brother and all the farmers in Ireland are being directed and told what to do by “Brussels” as they call it actually the EU. The EU is FULL of regulations they have effectively ruined all Irish farming to the point where farmers do not dare to drink the milk they produce
You live close to Brussels………….the atmosphere of regulation and interfering with Nature is strong there……………..the Irish know better if only they would listen to their ancestral wisdom……………….but sadly mostly they don’t. They because of their inferior feeling about themselves allow themselves to be told what to do by their ‘betters’. That used to be the English but now it’s the EU (Brussels)
Margaret I quote you:- “but this goes for Jack, I wonder why if not wanting to make up, which I can understand, you still want to ‘poke’?………………………………………………… and please, don’t just say ‘it is fun’, I think it is more than that.”
As best as I am able, I will answer you. First off, there is an historical connection between Patrick and I almost 30 years. That 30 years cannot be ignored (from my perspective) Next:- Patrick entered this blog in what I perceived as an attempt to humiliate me perhaps even attempt to hurt me. None of which it achieved, as best as I am currently aware. What I felt was:- Patrick was wanting something, but he was using a means that I felt was crazy; characterized by some in Gentle Giant as “verbal bullying” (something I feel he learned in the school yard as a kid). He never bullied me since I felt he knew he did not dare, because I was more than useful to the company and it’s operation
Patrick NOW begins to tell me that he was in a desperate situation and wanting me to do something for him. I was willing but I had a one condition; prior stated. Had Patrick approached me in a different manner I might have been willing to indulge him and reconsider. However during that 30 years of knowing him I had watched how he dealt with others (a practice I did not like), but since he was dealing with someone else I did not interfere. Suddenly I now found he was attempting to use that same modality on me. I thought then (mistakenly) he would see that this approach with me was not working. I now see this as a blind spot in him, but he continues in this manner, not only with me, but others including you Margaret.
Why I wish to “poke” him is I wish to be a ‘counter balance’ to what I see as his “desperate” attempt to use this blog to “re-organize Primal Therapy and dispute Primal Theory and castigate Arthur Janov. You, I gathered, wished for him to be banned, if only for a time. Because of who and what I am, I will counter his approach, by what ever means I have at my disposal (Pokes). In the hopes that it at least shows others he’s off on some tangent/s. (first Paleo, now vaccines and I am sure his old feelings will find [through his prolific reading] some other means).
Lastly:- Does it bother you Margaret that I am having FUN doing it? I know in the past you have stated you do not ‘like it at others expense’ …. but I noticed few jumped upon Patrick for his vitriol against me … save Gretchen initially. Ok, if you feel it is more than just that, perhaps you are right, and this is one of my blind spots. What I would like from you Margaret is to tell me directly and simply (don’t hold back cos I can take it from you) what you feel is going on with me in this incessant poking of Patrick. You don’t have to be right (as I feel you already know) … just express what it is you feel.
Hope that answers most of your questions.
Jack
Jack, You say one reason you poke Patrick is as a counter balance to the things he says. But I find it hard to believe you think Patrick could have some effect on primal by what he says on this blog. Also the participating bloggers are limited in number and there is nothing new in what you and Patrick say in the interaction. You are not reaching a huge audience. It all seems pointless, repetitive, and annoying. That’s maybe why I was referring to it as a primal comedy routine. You guys got to freshen it up and add new material. I was hoping you would take Patrick up on his offer for reconciliation if only so you would stop poking him. My assumption is Patrick is angry because primal hasn’t work out for him. He seemingly no longer has any trust in therapists or the process, so it couldn’t work. So, you might think it’s time to move on. Phil
Phil: I have said in the past that Patrick has a great talent as a salesman … and to the unititiated, be convincing. Hence, I do beleive he could do one of two things here on this blog. The first is:- others that might have some doubt about the effacacy of this therapy might be convinced by what he says, without some counter response. That I would find a great pity. The second is that there are, out there, others, and possibly reading this blog, though not commenting, characterized as “Primal deniers”. They then could take all this back to their own blog as instances of a Primal person, to demonstrate the lack of what they deem is the ineffectiveness of Primal.
Being that I feel strongly that the discovery of “Primal Pain”was the greatest discovery ever made… or for that matter, will ever be made. Why!!! because finally I see it, we humans have now discovered something about OURSELVES … I see that, as way more important that what is happening out there in our known universe … or any other aspect of science. It could, by my way of thinking, perhaps restore us to our original full-feeling-selves. Hopefully before we totally wipe out all life on this planet.
Ok. I realize, and perhaps with good cause you find it pointless, repetative and annoying … that is not my feeling … but then I could be way off point here. It is for that very reason that I am prepared to read anyone that has a some notion of what they perceive is going on with me. I will read it and as best I know how give it great consideration.
Jack
Jack, Maybe there are more people reading the blog than I was thinking. If there are, it would great if they would participate by posting. I noticed some good news by the way; the “debunking primal” website is no longer seems to be around. Phil
Phil: I really do feel there are more people than is assumed, reading this blog and not commenting. I am not sure of their reason, but I will proffer some:- Most of us want to be thought of as good and nice people (a myth IMO) Another could is that they have little to say, but wish only to be entertained or edificated by other’s ideas. Another could be that they are scarred shit-less lest someone jumps on their case (old feeling stuff there, I feel). Perhaps one last egocentric one in that they feel above it all.
Just stuff off the top of my head at the moment of reading your response. Maybe just a figment of my (weird) imagination.
I do feel that the purpose of the blog is to stimulate feelings and hopefully to get readers to respond. My reasoning being that Barry B in one group I attended suggested that we just say the first thing that comes into our heads. To me, that represent the real me (in my case). Censoring what I say is what I had to do as a kid and I feel what many others had to do. By going with what Barry suggested I feel puts each of us into that vulnerable position we encountered in our childhoods and hence could be capable of precipitating what is behind all our trepidation. To take another piece from a therapist I deeply admire,Vivian, who often said “Take a risk”
So far; my taking those kinds of risks have not killed me … yet.
Jack
Thanks for this post Jack. I fear I may have non deliberately entertaining myself composing the long but totally true accounts of my life.
One reason I can see for the long windedness is that I always had to deliver a convincing account of events as a defense to escape my mother’s beatings..
Fuck it must drive people ion the receiving end nuts. I always found my father’s soliloquies boring and infuriating.
David: for what it’s worth; don’t take what anyone might say about you writing here. Just write your thing, your way and when you feel like it, as I feel you are doing. I read you, but not sure l know where you are at or where you are coming from, most of the time … maybe a factor of getting passed 80. To and for me, that’s not relevant. It comes to all of us, as I see it, in bits and pieces..
The great insight I got some time ago was there is no “end point’ to this therapy. Just more and more of feeling this stuff and each time getting better at expressing it. All I am able to do is see what others say about me as some mirror being held up to me. I need all that, as I am not the only person in the universe. My universe yeah! … but then there are these little bugs (not the living kind) swearling around that “bug” me.
Jack
A good place for me to state unequivocally that I believe Primal Therapy holds the greatest hope for recovery from mental illness. I have seen miracles result. And I’m not an easy sell.
I remember running to Barry B to rat out patient John ### who was making horribly disparaging remarks about Primal, at the hotel on Pico. He told me to save my money and go home, that it was crap, the Institutes were a fraud.. I was really worried that he could scare off people who really needed therapy. Barry told me and I quote, ” I have great respect for that man. He has the courage to say what he feels.”
I felt whipped by , ” daddy,”. I had been the good boy and got the shit kicking.
Barry was right of course.
Somehow nobody ever said anything like that to me…………………..and I never said (that I remember) that it was ‘crap’ or a ‘fraud’. Sometimes actually though he has never said anything like that I imagine Barry reading some of the stuff I write and even ‘agreeing’ with me. Honestly I don’t think I am so ‘anti-primal’ at all I know LOTS of people who have done the therapy and are completely ‘over’ it, I and maybe unfortunately for me am still in a kind of uncomfortable middle……………but I do believe and feel I am going through something I am working towards something. Keep in mind the people here while maybe mostly all on the same page are a self selected group and not at typical the way I see of people who have gone through therapy. Me I am not ‘typical’ either just my own freaking painful self but anyway I feel I am on a path that’s good for me.
I was thinking how do I ‘place’ myself and I thought of Martin Luther (not MLK) I am talking about the German friar who broke away from the Catholic Church. He didn’t reject Jesus or Christianity or the Bible but his DID object to some of the actual practice of the Church. Anyway just a conceit I had…………….but I did order a book on Luther have not got it yet but something tells me it will be interesting to me……….Phil puts me in some category of someone who can’t or won’t trust therapists or something I find that shallow and a bit weak…………………..
Whoa, Whoa, Patrick; I must be a terrible communicator. I never said that you said that stuff; rather a guy I called, “John.” No one on this blog.
Friends of mine in LA had John pick me up at LAX and drive me to the famous PICO BUNDY hotel. He crapped on Primal, the Janov’s, and the therapists.. I learned from him , too, that Arthur and Vivian had divorced. That was shocking !! The god that knew the magic to save me wasn’t there.
John told me to save my money and go back home, that the therapy and the therapists were frauds.
My point in telling the story is what happened when I ratted John out to Barry. My motivation was honorable. I was worried he might interfere with someone in need of therapy.
Barry’s response was what is important. He didn’t reward me. He said that he had enormous respect for John because John had the courage to speak his mind. He was not interested in stifling criticism. That adds to the Institute’s credibility for me.
This was not in reference to you Patrick. I would be a Tyrranosaurus PRICK if I behaved that way to you.
I do not know Dr. Janov , and only Vivian, Barry, Gretchen, as any patient knows them. I would trust them with my life.
I don’t share the opinion of anyone that the therapy is ineffective nor do I have any facts that would cause me to conclude that Dr.Janov is Dr Evil. There is proof for me that he is Dr Genius for having described this therapy.
david
When I read your original comment Phil, I thought , shit, this Jack and Patrick are pals, co – conspirators writing this scrip, luring the rest of us into feeling states. How generous of them .That made it more palatable. Wow, but if it is just what it is, that’s really sad, from my perspective.
I was in a cab in Toronto years ago heading to Hamilton, and while chatting about what I worked at, the cabbie passed me a letter. He told me about some guy, a former close friend, he’d fallen out with 30 years before. He said he’d decided to accept the olive branch this former friend had offered from time to time. He passed me the letter saying, ” This explains it all.” I looked at the letter that started , ” Dear Ed,…” and passed it back saying , ,”Ed,” it didn’t feel right for me to read his friend’s letter to him. He answered that he was Alvin, his friend was Ed. Said he’d carried that letter around for weeks trying to get to mailing it. Now it was too late. Ed’s wife had phoned that evening to say Ed was dead, killed while stopped to render assistance to someone.
” That would be Ed, he said, always had to get involved…”
They’ve been at each other’s throats on this blog for probably at least 3 years, beginning when Patrick first appeared on the blog. When they put on a fight and duke it out round after lengthy round, it makes a person not want to bother with this blog. Their exchanges were a lot more vitriolic in the past. Recently there was a rare, brief, sensitive exchange between them, a fascinating turn to witness.
Larry: I take ‘exception’ to this latest comment of yours … I need to explain my feelings about a) ‘blogging’, b) ‘feelings’ and their place in life, c) ‘running away’ from all that we perceive as unpleasant.
BLOGGING: is a forum for the exchange of idea and opinions … whatever those opinions might entail. If you merely wish for it all to be “lovey dovey” (my phrase) … then I feel you are in the wrong forum.
FEELINGS and their place in life: All feelings are valid and that will inevitably involve feelings we do not always like If you really feel bad about the way the blog is going; I know not what you can do … BUT to try and change the tempo of the blog, to me, is a forlorn task.
RUNNING AWAY from all that we feel is unpleasant:- is not a solution, as I see it: We can ignore it, skip over those comments we feel bad about, or express our feeling about them… BUT “not want[ing] to bother with the blog” I feel is a cop-out.
Jack
Jack, don’t get your knickers in a twist, and fuck….are you preaching to me? If you are, enough patronizing preaching already. It makes me angry when someone tries to preach to me what I already know better than them. If you aren’t preaching, then what is the feeling underneath what you wrote, driving you to write it?
The venom between you and Patrick was a lot more vicious two or so years ago. You want to sit through a bar fight like the one between the motor cycle gangs in Waco, Texas, go ahead, be my guest. Not me. I walk away from bar fights and find better things to do. It’s a totally valid feeling about unpleasant bar fights that guides my life well, Jack.
You two have become a lot more civil to each other in the last year or so, so the blog doesn’t stink as bad as it did then. I haven’t walked away. I still get what I need from it. To those who stay away, either they don’t need it or they’re otherwise busy. It’s nice to see a newcomer, David, join. The blog will be whatever the people who participate here make it to be. Hopefully the people here will be sensitive enough to let others explore their feelings here. That’s what is most important to me.
You are truly gifted with clarity of written thought, Jack. I wish I had it. Patrick pointed out to me, kindly, how my using too many words can detract from the message being read.
I think me daring to expose what was done to me and then what I did to me by buying in is more important to me than considering if it will be read. It’s nice to hear kind comments though.
Someone will tell me I’m full of shit sometime, I’m sure.. hah Having survived Bella the rest of the world is not up to the task.
Just remembered going to a ” Primal,” folks birth day party in LA.. During the evening seeing her standing alone I kissed the gal who I went with on the forehead. It really upset her because she worried I had, ” marked,” her; ie: no other guy would hit on her because I had staked claim with that friend kiss on her forehead.
I went outside for a smoke and was overcome by my teenage feeling of not belonging anywhere. Mom was right again, no pretty girl would ever want to be with me, a fat, ugly faced guy.
David: let me be the first on to tell you are full of shit. How do I know … well sometime, minutes after my birth, I started shitting and have been doing it ever since. I did hope that I would reach a point when I was all emptied out, and rid of all that messy smelly stuff. But alas it keeps on coming. I gather that you are in the same dilemma, so there you have it … you must be full of shit also. 🙂 .
Boy!!! this language that my folk in that piece of the islands in the North Sea devised this lingua and it’s so full of absurdities … puns, onomatopoeia, hyperbola, paradoxes, ironies. alliterations and some other stuff that my English teacher taught me that I have since forgotten.
My father had a thing about shit. What’s so terrible about it? we all do it … so I am given to understand.
We deride the anus (arse hole) and other parts in that same region. What with us humans????
Jack
P.S. In the film (movie) “Amadeus” the music master to the Emperor told Mozart there were “too many notes … cut a few” Wolfgang responded with “which few did you have in mind?”
You might ask Patrick the same question.
j
SHIIIIIT, Jack, You slay me,dude…
Probably too big a coincidence , Margaret, Brussels, were you ever an interpreter ?
Margaret, I have been , ” feeling,” doing, ” mock,” Primal,since the early 70’s then the real thing mid 80’s. I was a Professional Social Worker, psychotherapist, Dr. of Naturopathy, Homeopath a Certified Counselor, musician, singer songwriter.. I cringe at saying , “i was,”; because I think it sounds pretentious. but it’s the quickest way to say how I served. And I don’t know if this is neurotic but I always felt/thought I was a fraud.
I am probably the most kindly, forgiving soul I know. Over the past 2 years I began to quit people with whom I had one way relationships; ones where I permitted myself to be used. I’ve been a bit pissed off lately. One thing that’s clear is that I have always aquiesced to ,” understanding,” people, but I have never been extended that same understanding. I changed a bit and overreaction accompanies change while trying on new skin. I don’t take anything that sounds like, ” you don’t know shit about me,” shit. And I don’t react well if I get that spidey sense tingle that someone is trying to manipulate
me out of my right to my feelings. It’s not like I have spent time thinking about it but the evidence is clear, being genuinely, kind, accepting did not affect the outcome one little bit towards establishing real friendships. So while I wish no one harm I no longer associate with those people. And I tell people in socially acceptable ways mostly not to fuck with me.
It feels like making myself vulnerable to give you an apology Margaret right now; but don’t concern yourself with it. I’m practicing standing up for myself. That’s coming from feelings not my head.
As the cowardly party leaving an intimate relationship and wanting to get away unscathed always says to the other, , ” It isn’t you, it’s me.”
I can’t even make a witty remark without people who know my character should know when I am joking. But, no, I’m chided for saying something silly. I was so serious a guy up to age 60, always oh so careful to never say anything that could possibly be misunderstood that would hurt another. Now I am free to be as silly as I wish. I am now as witty as I always wished I was when I was a younger man. And I will be as ridiculous as I choose. I will never deliberately hurt anyone and will help anyone I can. That’s my character.
>
> just saw a program about possible other causes of allergies becoming so widespread.
> one of them was in some countries 25 procent of the births have become caesareans now, robbing the child from certain bacteria the birth canal provides for them, covering their whole bodies at birth with a layer of these bacteria, which work like an anti-allergic boosting the immune system.
> then another factor is our internal biotope of bacteria is becoming too poor, too little getting in touch with outdoor natural life, animals and earth etc.
>
> well, I have got my share of that as a kid luckily, used to be playing out in the ‘dirt’ all day, and even craled into our dog’s small doghouse once,remember just fitting in, and it being kind of dusty and hairy inthere, and well, smelling of dog, smiley..
> i agree with there probably being overvaccinating nowadays, but well, would want to be careful not to throw out the child with the bathwater so to say.
> polio was such a terrible disease, if a fairly safe vaccine can prevent thousands of children to get paralysed or disabled, well, it ba becomes a question of balancing I guess.
>
> the plague being another example of a horrible disease having almost disappeared.
>
> but well, I agree on the fact too many vaccinations can be equally harmful, but I am not at all an expert on the matter, can only say it is good there is a discussion going on about it..
>
> M
I listened to that about a year ago Margaret. I was really into the obstetrician narrating the presentation until he got down to how they propose righting the situation. They want to continue controlling women’s bodies and raking in the income from their factory farm deliveries. So instead of returning C Sections to it’s proper status, last ditch response to EMERGENCY LIfe Saving Procedure, instead of system convenience and control of women, Doctor plays golf at 3pm, they propose swabbing the mom’s vaginal canal and swearing the secretions over the babies body. These same geniuses called the wonderful Dr. Frederick LeBoyer nasty names when he suggested that doctors so inoculate their hands before touching newborns.
Vaginal deliveries need to be reinstated as the primary delivery procedure.
I agree, Margaret. All of the hand sanitizers, antibacterial soaps and sprays, wrecking the biome we need to encounter and defeat in establishing a competent immune response.. Like letting the boy in the bubble out… The percentage of intestinal bacterium ratio to total contents weight in a healthy bowel is significant. They play a huge part in an innumerable number of processes.
David, you make me think of this song:
My youngest daughter and her 14 year old erudite friends rewrote that tune, substituting the lyrics of filthy mouthed 14 year olds, .” I got held down,, and i ‘m knocked up ag’in….. I knew 14 year old boys did that, I was one once, but prim, proper, 14 year old ballerinas??? I snuck off so as not to embarrass them.hah. She’s a wonderful 36 year old, multi degreed strong woman, and, great mom now;;and out of ear shot of her kids she has the mouth of a pirate. She never heard it from me. I thought I was imaginative, but she’s found creative applications for the word , “fuck,” I never thought of. And I cringe to hear that sweet little girl say it…hah
‘m liucky , I guess, Larry. Was it my wonder grampy?? I don’t know. Maybe it was avoiding attracting pain. I have not a clue. But I managed survive to hold a 40 year career in human sciences and the respect of coworkers who were decent to others. The bureaucrats I’m proud to say hated me. I have served on charities, the last one I have served for 45 years and chaired for 30, so I am able to play well with others. There are a dozen friends who would say I saved their lives.
But, I have never had a friend where I would always be welcome at any time, impossible to ever be an inconvenience to just one person. Maybe that’s an unreasonable expectation. Maybe that only comes from a healthy parent child relationship. Except, I have known people who have had that. And sometimes I go away from their presence , hurt, and cry
>
> Jack,
> thanks for your long and honest answer.
> it sounded genuine and made sense.
> to your question I cam only say I did not know really what your motives were, that is why I asked.
> what you said about the thirty years of history and Patrick’s entry on the blog makes me think there is indeed some anger involved, but all the other things you say make sense as well, so thanks for expanding a bit about what is your own stricktly personal mix of feelings.
> I am not opposing to any of it.
>
> Patrick, I know I said I would never adress you again, but well, I heard your apology,.
> if I may give another advice, it would be nice if you try to generalize a bit less.
> you’d be surprised at how some vets, even ones that live not very far from Brussels, also question the number of vaccinations that are given at this moment.
> people are individuals, with their individual opinions, which depend rarely or to a minimal degree of where they live, but much more on their interest and formation and general viewpoints that also keep evolving all the time.
> specially attributing opinions to people just because of the country they live in or the profession they have, well, it does not feel right to me.
>
> I have even mentioned before I have asked my vet about the vaccines and what she answered, so well, I hope you can see there was no ‘need’ to run me over to make your point so to say.
> truely hope you do reflect on this, as it would also help you a lot in my opinion.
> M
A professional acquaintance , a Phd in animal medicine, who uses Homeopathy primarily, and Acupuncture; and Natural Diets, and refuses to comply with euthanasia for human convenience requests, has been often threatened with loss of license for not practicing the standard,burn, cut and poison vet medicine. His satisfied owners would revolt .
Margaret – I think you can lighten up a bit about ‘generalizations’. When I say “Brussels” I am how would say joking is not quite right but anyway no need to take it so literally I mean about a specific place or country. I know if anything it is the whole EU policies
As far as you vet – I was reacting to all the stuff you constantly were saying about you cat, all the shots and creams and suits etc etc. And I am just saying maybe look at your ‘results’ Were the results good? From what I see they were not.
My ‘advice’ and I know that’s a dirty word here if you get a new cat JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, LET IT BE A CAT. That involves doing NOTHING or a ‘medical’ nature. That’s right NOTHING nothing at all. And when you will undoubted see much better ‘result’s you might then think a bit more in general about ‘medical interventions’
>
> the whole ‘medicalizing ‘ of the farming is maybe finding its concentration point in Brussels, but is a complex interaction between a lot of pressure groups, not to forget also the ‘bio-industry’, replacing traditional farming,which I find very worrying.
> annimals are only regarded as how much gain per kilo they offer, and how fast they can be forced to grow, it is a shocking and degrading evolution which I strongly oppose.
> the only thing I can do against it sadly enough, apart from supporting some animal defense groups, is not buying regular meat or as little as possible.
> it is the whole ‘marrket’ system which we as consumers form part of, if the majority of us keep bying ‘cheap’ meat, which actually means cruelly raised meat full of hormones and antibiotics, pressure will remain on the politicians making up the rules to keep their farming voters in the comercial race.
> animal rights pressure groups can only do so much if we as consumers don’t go along and support them with our own behavior.
> so well, even while I live close to Brussels, I would forbid what actually forms the bio-industry, it is a shame,a disgrace.
> M
David – I have been stretching my mind in trying to remember you. I think I can ‘see’ you now tall not really tall like 6-1, skinny and in good shape, a bit ‘curly’ hair not really curly just like a bit or a bit in front, talkative a little bit ‘self absorbed………………………….
It was (if I am on the right track) in the Brooks Ave house in the ‘living room’ which was just one sofa as the atual living room had been cordoned off and turned into a bedroom
I hope this is not boring to people I just did it as a bit of an exercise to let my mind recall it gradually came to me………………..not that I really know if I am right……………
I’d like to say, yes to tall and skinny and curlyish hair, and,” not me,” to self absorbed. I think I would not come off as self absorbed. I was 5’11”, pretty straight hair, shoulder length when 1st in LA and then,respectably short, per Frank’s recommendation. I am barrel chested, 190 lb when in good shape; an obese 240 lb when I arrived Aug 86; 190lb, 44- 46 ” chest and 32 ” waist when I left May, 87. I think both you and Frank were home, August 86, when Jerry and I answered your ad for new roommates wanted. We didn’t make the cut.
I think Tom Foley recommended me to Frank. It was my opinion Frank had started his own moving service by the time I began working for him. Rented Ryder trucks until he bought one, a cab over, in Colorado, I think, mid Fall 86.
I only remember someone eating in the kitchen; the day we moved the family out of Venice; the new guy I think Frank said. Brooks rt off of Venice heading south, your house just a few houses off Venice on left side of street ???
Yep I play wandering through history too; to prove my intact mental acuity to myself, hah !!!
Guess we can use this spot as we wish….
David – I am pretty sure it was you then all the physical features pretty much match…………..as far as ‘self absorbed’ that would be in the eye of the beholder. Do you think someone who doesn’t think they are ‘self absorbed’ quite often ARE. I mean that might be part of the syndrome I know a bit of what I speak here. A friend one time told me I was ‘self absorbed’ and my first reaction was not at all I am interested in all kinds of things but later I realized she was right. I was too self absorbed to notice that I was self absorbed lol…………….
cool, holmes…I’ve never been skinny. watching a flick with Daniel Craig; shit How I wanted to look like that when I had fantasies about wanting to be a chick magnet. Now when the call me dear and hon, its as a prefix for , ” poor old thing..” haaa As sad an awakening as coming to grips with the fact that that BIG Yellow, “S” on my forehead is not for SUPER…
> ha, I was interviewed for the monthly magazine of the Open University, for studying psychology as a blind student in her fifties.
> I just reread the version they made of it, a shortened version of my answer to their questions, but was very glad to see they left in my mentioning of Primal Therapy and its usefullness as one of the causes to raise my interest in studying again.
>
> a small thing maybe, but on the other hand not so small, as this is my first achivement to publish something about Primal Therapy in the actual ‘professional’ or ‘future professionals’ field of psychology.
> not only the name of Primal was nentioned, but also that I went to Los Angeles for it for years, and that it is a deep exploration of repressed and unprocesssed emotions dating as well from a more recent past as from childhood.
> I added over the years my interest and involvment kept growing, leading to my decision to pick up the study at the Open University.
> ha, and they asked for a digital picture, so I gave them the only digital picture I have on my laptop, me and my former cat, smiley.
>
> apart from that it is about working with the screenreader and having to do it all mostly by myself as it is such specialized software, and about the good assistance I got nevertheless from my mentor and specially from my statistics teacher.
> but hey, maybe some people will look up “Primal Therapy’.
> I said much more about it and about Janov and Barry and Gretchen but well, they left out that bit. but still, hey, I feel pleased about it!
> M
Margaret, you speak of your visual blindness,in this post. Are you life long blind ? A visually blind friend,who was a stringed instruments musician, had a stock answer that tickled him when asked if he had been blind since birth. He answered,” To the best of my memory.” He used to have a penchant for driving his ,” smash up derby car,” in his field. Asked about that he’d reply, that he had intended to become a race car driver, that the smash up designation was the result of a natural progression, being unable to see where he was going.
Do you watch the TV show, Battle Creek. I get the impression that the creator may be referencing Primal. I nearly jagged in watching it, The conflict interaction between some of the characters is so typical of 7 – 9 year olds. Rowan Atkinson says his , ” Mr Bean, ” character is a nasty 9 year old and that he dislikes him and is amazed he is liked by viewers.
That’s cool Margaret – good for you.
David – I will write down here because if I reply directly the comment gets too ‘skinny’.We are getting our wires crossed just a little bit I mean in relation to the Back Motel story. So let me try to clear it up.
You said “John” said PT was a ‘con’ and ‘crap’ but that Barry said he respected “John” because he thinks for himself, says what he believes etc etc. My point was and is I don’t think I even ‘went that far’ or said things like that but it is true I have been a ‘critic’ of PT quite a lot here. I know also you did not say or imply that I ever said it was ‘crap’ but I was simply saying how come I never got those kinds of kudos from Barry or actually anyone else.. Sounds lame maybe wanting kudos but anyway I want to be clear and I also know you didn’t say that I said it was ‘crap’ So hopefully that puts that to bed.
About Art Janov you said about me
“when you write about Dr. Janov your hate for the guy is palpable, I can taste it.”
Umm…………….I would not put it like that. I have a great sense of disappointment in him I think he tripped over something with enormous potential but sadly I feel it has remained mostly as potential. I am sure people here will quickly say my ‘disappointment’ is with myself, yes partly I have to agree but I hate that kind of primal ‘cheap shot’ where any criticism is so quickly turned back of the critic (Cult Alert!!)
That has been the practice from the beginning all the way to now………………and it has not served PT very well.
Patrick, I agree with what David wrote about your apparent hate for Janov. I am astounded by what you write here. It’s probably pointless to remind you, but in many posts over the time I’ve been here you’ve crapped repeatedly all over Janov, the therapy, the therapists and the members here. You’ve said that the therapy and therapists are a scam as well as many other hateful things. It has seemed to me that you strive to say the most vicious, hurtful things possible on this blog. Then it seems like you want to pretend nothing happened. Phil
Cult Alert!!
Patrick, With David, for some reason, you want to say you are disappointed with Janov. That you don’t really hate him. So tell me then, and no “cult alert” b.s., what accounts for all the bile you release here? Phil
Oh for fucks sake Phil stop all this ‘precious’ nonsense. You call it ‘bile’ to me it’s something else. I have a purpose even if only for myself that goes beyond bile. Phil the little I know of you you seem a very ‘conventional’ thinker. Maybe that ‘works’ for you but it does not work for me at all
Oh, good. I did not want to have created a misunderstanding with you, Patrick.. Actually I reread your post, understood you were not even thinking I was accusing you. I slapped myself; why didn’t I read it fully instead of glancing and reacting. It also alluded me that you were making that comparison that you are never shown respect for speaking your mind. I respect that and prefer it in my interactions, even if it doesn’t always feel good. I like to know where I stand and have the opportunity to respond how I choose.
I wish the Institute and the Primal Center would explain why they have kept the practice of the,” real,” Primal Therapy to themselves. I am sure these highly intelligent minds have thought about this.
I can totally understand the quality control;argument. It is valid. I realize they were in the initial understanding and development phase. But at some point clutching control became flawed reasoning.
Frgive me for making the ugly comparison, but if MacDonalds had limited itself to one restaurant, patented all of their products and issued blatant public warnings that only their MacStuff was the one and only, and, the only safe, real mac coy; and to stay clear from all dangerous counterfeiters, mock burger makers, MacDonalds would have failed.
What if Dr, Christian Bernard had kept his heart surgery techniques to himself advising the world that only his personally supervised surgery was the real/competent product ??
In the case of MacDonalds world health would be better served if they had failed… IMMHFO
Arthur, IMMHO, should have traveled the world sharing certified peer reviewed patient testimonials and encouraging therqpist to go for it, offering to assist opening Primal Therapist Training Centers.
In the beginning, Dr. Janov writes, time and again, he knew nothing about what they were doing.. And the patients developed the therapy. I am not competent to say but it is possible the theory and the treatment techniques continue to evolve.
What happens to the availability of the real Primal Therapy beyond the longstanding professional devotees, Arthur, France, Vivian, Barry, Gretchen.
That’s my concern and the gripe I have, it is bloody selfish, criminal, if their eventual passing kills Primal Therapy.
David: I can’t be absolutely certain, but I did read somewhere why Art didn’t want anyone practicing Primal Therapy from merely reading his book/s. The reason if I remember rightly, was that pushing patients into feelings that they were not ready to feel was potentially dangerous, in that it could cause major confusion … without any resolution. I gather he also felt if such incidents were to happen; it would give the whole concept a bad name. Ironically, that may actually have precipitated very thing he wanted to avoid.
This was a factor that also caused me some concern and I spent a great deal of time wondering (yeah! head tripping) how to fix this very paradox (delemma if you like). I came up with the idea for a do-it-yourself procedure, and wrote a book to that effect.
I am pretty certain that both Art and people at his Center along with Barry and Gretchen at the Institute are fully aware of this ‘paradox’ (my phrasing).
I personally feel certain (should we humans NOT blow up all life on the planet within the next 100 years) that there will be a re-read of Primal Theory and that from that will ensue the practice of a psychological therapy that will help most.
As I see it (just me apparently), the problem is moving from the theory, to a practice, which entails a RE-LIVING of ones own feelings in early childhood and/or womb life. I don’t see the proclivity to “re-live” ones past as something new. I feel many did so in the past … BUT they mis-interpreted their experience and related it to what in their conscious mind, was aware of (for the most part, a religious/spiritual experiences) then promoted just that. Of hand I see Saul of Taurus, Thomas of Aquino, Buddha, et al. being cases in point.
As patients and ex patient we each of us have our own feelings and reasoning about this very “paradox” (as I wish to call it). Of course I risk in stating this, to be considered lecturing (and maybe in a sense I am), but what is so terrible about lecturing. There are many that make a handsome living out of it. It’s not a dirty word … yet. Just that many don’t like it, for reasons only they know.
Jack
Thank you Jack. I value your thoughts. And thank you so much for your book. The spinal cord injury I am healing from prevents me from sitting or holding any same body position for long periods, so my reading has been slow. But I think you are bang on. Primalling on my own I believe hanging on to a scene too long or crying away feelings or ranting them away was a defense a therapist would have interrupted.
I have been reading Dr Janov, and Primalling in some form since 1972
I have read all of those explanations.from Dr. Janov. And while they are valid I think there came a point they defeated the spread of Primal Therapy to have taken its place as the therapy of first choice. So from that point of view they don’t hold water. Arthur should have embarked on making Primal , ” IMPRINTED,” on the world’s mind. People remember the names Freud, Jung, et al, but only myself and a tiny group of post primal friends here in my Province have ever heard of Arthur Janov and Primal Therapy.
When new Social Workers, Psychologists, Psychotherapists came on staff or joined the local Mental Health Clinic, i would endeavor to sneak Primal into the discussion. None had ever heard of Primal and it sounded too whacky to interest them to inquire further. A couple borrowed from my, “Primal,” library. It ended there. They had been brainwashed, ” head dedicated.”
There was a time when a group of us met at the Psych Dep’t at St Anne’s Universitè every week to discuss Primal therapy and helping clinical understanding of patients in primal terms . The prof , a close primal friend, had gone to Montreal and then New York to do his own therapy. He taught a graded course on, ” Dr Arthur Janov ,Primal Therapy, Theory and Practice.”
A French speaking college, students came from all over the French speaking world.
dave
> David,
> no, I have seen normally until the age of 40.
> in my first year of therapy I could still see well, but then in the following year got tbc in the brain which as a meningitis caused too much pressure for too long on the optical nerves.
> result after three months of hospital was loss of about 95 percent of sight and loss of the hearing of my left ear.
> don’t feel like going into more medical details on this blog.
>
> it is a huge loss to cope with, but I try to make the best of my life nevertheless.
> I think it helped me in my therapy actually as I was forced continuously to ‘look at myself’, no escape but to be confronted with my inner world all the time..
> only on the second visit after losing most of my sight did the feelings about it break through, in their own howling way.
>
> now i still miss basic things, looking at beautiful things like landscapes but also just absorbing all kinds of visual atmospheres of well, hidden corners and back alleys for example, every spot has its very own ‘feeling’, and I was a very visual person, drawing all the time for example.
> now turned to singing and dancing for the last decade, and studying for the last couple of years.
> M
Ah FUCK !!!!, Margaret; You can’t tell but I have tears for you. It’s meaningless to say it, not even close to intelligent, but UNFAIR !!! Margaret, UNFAIR !!! Can’t imagine how you had the ability , the desire , to search out any , ” Old stuff.”
I admire your resilience. I’d wallow in the corner and feel sorry myself to death.
>
> David,
> well,I think we all can do more than we suspect when there is little choice..
> I know I am a fighter, that is true, to some extend, as I have kept going to the Institute, despite it being so much more scary as everything becomes a problem, finding my way, buying food, socializing, name it, even having fun is not easy..
> but well, you have to go with the cards you get,and I had led a life full of risks before so carry part of the blame.
> of course that lifestyle was again partly due to my old pain and search for relief, and partly to the ’70’s and their adventurous freaky lifestyle, which has also had is up sides with some unbelievable adventures, crazy as some of them were, there was also a lot of beauty there.
>
> you have faced your own hardnesses as well, I can’t begin to imagine how it must be to lose a 4 year old daughter, and then to have to go on in a world that must suddenly have lost a lot of its appeal.
> I htink that is the kind of sadness you always keep with you, that can only become part of you.
>
> that is one useful , one of the many useful things Barry said to me: when I was talking about my struggle to get rid of my sadness, he asked me why I felt I needed to get rid of it, as it formed a part of me.
> that helped me a lot, to come to terms with the idea almost as if it is something to be ashamed about, something that should be hidden or disguised.
>
> of course sometimes that is the best option, some occasions demand you to function regardless of what the feeling is inside, but between friends it should be an acceptable feeling, to be sad.
> that is why retreats are such a blessing, to be able to explore how it is, finally to feel safe to let it all come to the surface and express it, to just be able to be who you are and explore and experience it.
>
> the last few days am feeling how a new ‘wave’ of doom and gloom is coming up, will have to make my way through it, fear, sadness, hopelessness, loneliness, all there..
>
> luckily my dreams do a lot of work for me, processing a lot of fear, often sadness, and sometimes treating me with fabulous visual starry skies and landscapes, gorgeous buildings and even cloths and shopping malls and displays of pastries and icecream, smiley.
>
> not to forget a fine and varied collection of dream lovers, haha!
> and of course a lot of cats too in my dreams, and horses.
> but actually in my daily life feel somewhat depressed and partly paralised with fear and gloom momentarily.
> a bunch of setbacks together and a load of sadness to process.
> have lost my husband in ’90, we were drug users on and off, but we also had some very nice years, actually the best of my life, just a couple of them, living a simple life with two dogs and some stray cats at a Spanish coast.
>
> strange but fascinating world, this world..
>
> kindness and generosity are values I higly esteem, don’t know why I say this, simply because it feels it matters a lot to me I guess.
> don’t know why I feel teary right now.
> m
A know a 47 year old man, who I coached in baseball, who contracted bacterial meningitis when he was 14 and is paralyzed. He tells me I am the only one he talks to about his ongoing dreams of being ambulatory. He says it makes anyone else too uncomfortable. He says I am the only one who showed tears and anger over his injuries, didn’t act stoic or signal that he should , ” suck it up.” He says that my confiding in him that if it had happened to me my first wheel chair outing would have been over his cliff into the ocean, may well have prevented him from dong just that. He felt it and then didn’t have to act it out.
We are lucky to have had the opportunity to learn about feelings and our right to them. That’s why Primal is the ultimate gift to me. I lament I will never achieve the level of recovery from neurosis I would like. But I am fortunate for what I have acquired. I can hurt, feel lonely, get pissed off, but I KNOW there’s nothing wrong WITH ME, I’m suffering for what was done to me, and I’m okay.
and, oh, you speak of dreams; Margaret; I rarely remember dreams but my body pillow is terrified of me…hah
I demand that this blog also be a pace for silliness, fraught with our ridiculous parts. I have an elderly e pal, a retired Methodist minister who sends me delightful smutty jokes and cartoons; she is 81. Her lament is having forgone that hillarious part of herself to maintain an image.
David: I agree that this blog might serve a great therapeutic service if the was more silliness. Isn’t that the way we were all meant to be? I remember being told so many times that I was silly and idiotic and stupid when I was a kid and it never occurred to me that it was normal to be that way.
Out there, in the world at large, we are all pretending to be so fucking sensible, intelligent, good and righteous. but looking around, I feel I am the only one that is that way.
As my granny once said to me once, ” The’re aw a bit peculiar … except me and thee … and tha can be a bit funny ut times”. “What!! me granny”, I replied. “Ay, thee”. It didn’t bother me, if I remember rightly cus I knew she really loved me … but it wasn’t until I started attending retreats that I saw she was absolutely right. So in order to become the real me, which I gathered was the purpose of this therapy, I started to be silly and stupid and idiotic. Wow! what a thrill it all was. Now I realized I had gotten a handle on what Art was talking about when he wrote that it was all about becoming the REAL person I am,
Isn’t that the paradox? I think that I am so fucking righteous. and that it everyone else that is so ‘fucked up’
For what time I’ve got left, I’m convinced that all I need to be is that fucked-up person that I was forever hearing that I was. Now I beginning to believe it.
Jack
Thank you for increasing my license , Jack..
No problem David … the bill is already in the male.
Jack
No, Jack; I’m Canadian, not Aussie; barned in Nova Scotia I were. The Aussie was visiting here.
Patrick, whar ‘r’ ye ? y’alright, sir ???
This doesn’t come up to a Mike story. Too short on length and the funny..
After Frank bought the ” Cab -over,” moving truck, we were barely on the 405 headed North I think. Frank had gassed up and had the guy check the engine oil, and maybe top it up. Anyhow, we’re behind a semi hauling a tandem load of large medium crush rock. A couple of vehicles ahead a Jeep Grand Cherokee did what they are best known for, spontaneously going into a lateral roll over. Buddy hauling the crush rock puts on the binders, maybe spilling some of his load,??? Frank brakes, and suddenly we’re looking at the pavement; me laying against the dash; no seat belts in the old truck. Buddy at the garage had forgotten to latch the cab locks after checking the fluids….. I may have learned it wasn’t smart to laugh out loud at everything by then….
I remember another time at that crazy intersection, somewhere along Olympic maybe. It was like a spoked wheel, there were so many converging lanes that intersected. A woman came through. on a red, driving a Honda coupe, and our truck drove right over the boot on her car. I was fucking freaked out. Out of the truck to check on her. Frank was super cool,”Fucking stupid cow,” may closely approximate his response. I was horrified. In Canada if someone runs over me, I say sorry I made you run me over mate. If I run over someone, I say super, super, super sorry, I should have. known you were going to fall out of that tree in front of me. MY BAD… well we’re almost that bad, by myth anyhow.
Why is a myth referring to a rural tale still called an urban myth ??
David – taking a break………………..it does not feel good being ‘poked’ all the time…………….and I WILL be maybe even for this………………….hope he puts his ‘poker’ somewhere else…………………….but the ONLY way for me to avoid being ‘stabbed’ is to keep away………………..maybe ANOTHER reason I disagree with vaccines………………..I don’t like being poked/stabbed………………as a child/infant being poked/stabbed is no ‘sport’ even if it has become so for certain switched off members of the primal ‘upper class’ the one who are ‘allowed’ head trips…………….also another reason I don’t like Margaret stabbing and poking her defenseless little kitty cats………………………………..
I wonder if it occurred to you that most people don’t like a lot of things that you have had the habit of doing on this blog? I suppose it’s ok for you to ‘blow off’ at other’s, but oh no! “don’t do things to me that I don’t like” . Perhaps you aren’t even aware that it is all “Cause and Effect”. How dumb can that be?. Oh I forgot you love to do ‘your’ thing and then assume that others will be “EVER SO FORGIVING” … and that is what you’ve assumed Primal Therapy is all about.
You use any principle that comes to mind to JUSTIFY your action … but little realize that you cause the ensuing effects. Now you state you don’t like it, but even justify it all through being JABBED and connect that to vaccination. Is that way less cruel than your brother breeding “defenseless’ sheep to be slaughtered … against their will Try looking into yourself; being just a little more introspective. You might find it causes you a little less misery.
And yes I have no doubt I will be asked to ‘practice what I preach’ or even being at your throat. Incidentally no-one banned “head tripping”, but it handy when I know that’s what’s I’m doing.
However, I’m REAL happy to see you back. More fun 🙂 . Not about to put my poker down … yet
Jack
my screen is a bit blurry, ” you did write, ” p o k er,” right. I am glad to hear how that makes you feel.. I am sincere, and no primal pun intended. I have learned never to 2nd guess. Yeah it’s gotta be shit to hear that you’re hated and will never reach a truce. It would be easier if you didn’t care. Or, through my lens of course. I know how too much of such messages make me feel.
You’ve been decent to me.
>
> the last couple of days I felt kind of down, but also with a strong flavour of fear. so ‘gloom and doom’, let’s say, covers it quite well.
> at night really freaky scary nightmares about being attacked, almost killed, persecuted, having to fight back, or hide, run, and try to protect cat and on one occasion a little girl as well..
>
> all socializing feels threatening, more than it already does to me usually in that state..
>
> but this morning picked up the statistics once more, and they made me feel after an hour of two I was gradually regaining some control..
>
> then my brother came by and we sorted out some stuff that needed to be done on my place, went to a store to look at materials and managed to make a decision.
>
> told him too I’d rather stay home than go along to our mom, had called her already and told her about my cold. I had spoken to her cleaning lady, and was very reassured she told me she would keep coming weekly to my mom, despite my mom telling her it was not necessary and she could come every fourtnight or even every month..
>
> she deals with that ever so nicely, just nods and agrees with our mom, and instead of saying ‘I’llo do this next week’, she says ‘I’ll do this the next time’.
>
> she gives my mom a call the evening before she goes there, (weekly!), and my mom does not know anymore it is only a week ago..
>
> this is for me and my brother a big reassurance, and we are very grateful the cleaning lady is so nice and kinkly flexible.
>
> our mom can use that help really well, as her memory fails more and more, in the evening she does not know anymore what she has done during the day, even if it was being out all day with her boyfriend.
>
> of course she finds that distressing and sad and scary..
>
> but she copes quite well lately, and we are happy we manage to find ways to allow her to stay in the house she lived in for almost 55 years now.
>
>
> then I managed too to get through to my own social assistance and get them to send me a one time thorough cleaning team, two persons for an entire morning, next week.
> I will start gathering stuff I should get rid of now, old software wrappings you need to keep for the first couple of years, but they end up piling up and gathering dust, for example.
>
> so a ‘clean hurricane’ will go through the appartment and they are also warned everything should be put back exactly on the same spot again, otherwise I have to search and search if I want to find somehting not being able to spot it visually..
>
> so well, getting things in action makes me feel better already, a bit anyway, though of course I know the old feelings of fear keep lurking and won’t go away untill I have faced the demons..
>
> fear is such a hard feeling to process, it is so paralising and compelling me to want to stay home in my ‘relatively’ safe shell which of course is not good if it goes on for too long.
>
> but still, I think I manage to find a balance more or less, to keep my life on the move..with a little help from my friends..
> and family..
> M
I know about paralysing fear and wanting to stay home. I fear that when I retire, I’ll want to stay home all the time and will have to be constantly battling my fear and making myself get out or I won’t have much of a life. Already, since being alone and having to battle my insecurities alone, my life is diminished.
Last weekend was a long weekend, Monday being a holiday here. I cried a lot about how alone I am. Thank goodness I did get out and go with some acquaintances to a dinner fundraiser for Nepal, and the next evening went to dinner with 25 people from a singles group…followed by my brief presence at a dance with 5 of them. An acquaintance and I had planned to see the movie Ex Machina on Sunday but she had to change the plan to Monday. Then on Monday she was wrestling a cold, so I went to the movie alone, to an almost empty theatre.
I’m glad I was able to make myself get out and spend time with these casual acquaintances, because outside of them I was alone all long weekend. All the long weekend I cried a lot about my aloneness in the present and more importantly aloneness that pervades my life deep into my past when because there was no one there I unconsciously gave up hope and imprinted onto the behaviour track that cursed me to be always alone. It’s very hard to change that track and be confronted with the truth of how alone I was and why.
I hear and share your thoughts on fear. Maggie. I say when asked about dying I don’t fear death
but I don’t want to die in fear; if that makes sense.
Arms about you for a while
Arms about you, there my child
Naught will harm you
I will keep
Arms about you
Go to sleep
I wrote lullabies for my kids and grandkids and ggk’s, this for Sandra, the middle one; oh the poor middle ones…
I just read an interesting magazine article by two authors of a new book on meditation and mindfulness. Here are some excerpts that capture the essence of the article.
“Meditation and mindfulness have a dark side that should not be ignored, say psychologist Miquel Farias and Catherine Wikholm” in their new book The Buddha Pill: Can meditation change you?”
“Twitching, trembling, panic, disorientation, hallucinations, terror, depression, mania and psychotic breakdown – these are some of the reported effects of meditation.”
“But happiness and de-stressing were not what meditation techniques, with their Buddhist and Hindu roots, were originally developed for. The purpose of meditation was much more radical: to challenge and rupture the idea of who you are, shaking one’s sense of self to the core so you realise there is “nothing there” (Buddhism) or no real differentiation between you and the rest of the universe (Hinduism). So perhaps it is not so surprising that these practices have downsides.”
“…we realised that media report were heavily biased: findings of moderate positive effects were inflated, whereas non-significant and negative findings went unreported.”
“Another study found that practising mindfulness for 20 minutes a day resulted in higher levels of biological stress, as measured by the hormone cortisol (despite lower reported levels of subjective stress) than for those in the non-meditation group.”
“Torkel Brekke of the University of Oslo in Norway, who edited a book on Buddhism and violence, describes Buddhist texts that explain how individuals who have become enlightened through meditative practice may act amorally if their actions are undertaken in a detached state of mind. Rather than being exceptional, the association between meditation and detached killing became the norm in Japan during the second world war. The historian and Zen priest Brian Victoria writes how the training of Japanese soldiers included the use of meditation techniques to ensure that the soldier lost his sense of self and “became” the very order he received.”
“Meditating can produce powerful effects on the mind, but not all of these are beneficial or peace-generating.”
“Despite popular opinion, meditation is not a panacea. The truth is that most of us, including scientists, have beliefs about meditation that are often naive, and have turned a blind eye to its potential dark side. We need to change this.”
Larry – yes that is an interesting article.I think the main point is correct, that a lot of the practices have been sort of bastardized in the West nowadays. Like ‘mindfulness’ though in theory makes sense and I would even say I ‘practice’ it here and there it apparently has become a kind of ‘program’ in Silicon Valley. Like at Googe you get mandatory breaks to practice ‘mindfulness’. Also like the Japanese army these companies are promoting this for THEIR benefit…………….more focused and rested employees hence more ‘productivity’ they hope………………..
I would be a bit show in dismissing it all though…………………..and the kinds of criticisms here of meditation, well OTHER criticisms could be made of ‘primal’ like regardless how how wonderful the ‘theory’ is and sounds the actual ‘practice’ is often quite something else…………..
I see meditation and mindfulness as a defense which serves to try to keep your thoughts on a preferred track and away from disturbing feelings and reality. I also see it as similar to a drug the purpose of which is to deal with symptoms. Like any defense or drug I feel meditation has its use, but the ideal is to a become a whole, healthy, feeling human being no longer needing the defense or drug.
Larry – there is some truth in what you say. But the exact same thing could and should be said about primal…………………” keep your thoughts on a preferred track” even it is ‘painful’ it is for some reason ‘preferred’……………I have done this a lot a Catholic upbringing led me to ‘pain’ and ‘suffering’ as a way out or a solution to life’s problems………………turns out not to be so true after all. I don’t care for this wholesale putting down of New Age type things………………..Janov did that a lot still does yet his solution seems not to have worked any better for the most part. Often I pick up some New Age type magazine just at random it seems often to have more to say to me than primal…………………that kind of primal exclusivity just seems really unhelpful and the ‘results’ seem to match that situation. “Results” to me are important including for Margaret and her cat. Whatever her ‘intentions’ what are the ‘results. Her blast at me below makes me feel quite unmoved – I feel SHE needs to go back to the drawing board.
“Larry – there is some truth in what you say. But the exact same thing could and should be said about primal…………………”
What’s the “could and should” you are referring to and by what theory of yours???? Geeze !!!! do you think all this up while standing upright?????
If you are able (which I somewhat doubt) write us a little thesis about what you feel went WRONG” with the practice of Primal Therapy. It’s one thing to say “it went way off track”, but yet another to give your reasoning as to how and/or why.
The only thing, I feel, is driving your thinking is that since you FAILED to get it. It’s not credible. How could some great thinker, like yourself, be so utterly ’round the bend???’
Tell us once and for all; what went wrong with the PRACTICE of Primal Therapy. That could …. in the annals of Gretchen, Barry B and Arthur Janov be some great piece of enlightenment … even perhaps help the rest of us ‘conventional thinkers’ to put our minds to rest. 🙂
Jack
I MIGHT one day try to write all this down……………….for sure there is a good story there though I am not sure I am the one to tell it. I am limited, lazy and easily distracted but certain thing I am fairly sure of…………….but it is a big story and involves many disciplines if you want to get serious about it. But my very short version for now is primal was a brilliant stab in the dark but it didn’t go so well from there. Here I don’t think is the right place because there is a lot of ‘piling on’ people’s own insecurities. The idea of FAILURE scares people me too………………but I have had to face it………….I failed and I hold myself forward as an example of mostly failure on a mass level with primal…………….failure is the coin of the realm but people are busy NOT feeling that……………since I faced that I ‘failed’ in conventional primal terms I find myself getting better and seeing it in a new way…………………but you will have to wait……………..
It feels kind of pointless to react to you Patrick because your manner of thinking is more random and defensive rather than leading anywhere.
Of course the whole point of primal therapy is to help a person to to think about and understand and see how they defend against their pain, to ultimately open up to their pain and feel it. That’s what most of us on this blog try to achieve. If you don’t want to that’s fine, but if your are too afraid to let go of your defenses, if you consistently refuse to acknowledge or even look at them, if you’ve never acted in ways that would allow your defenses to crumble and never allowed yourself to experience resolution through the therapeutic process, then you’ve never experienced the therapy. By criticising primal therapy when you’ve never allowed yourself to experience it and understand it, you are just defending against actually doing it. That’s OK. You can defend all you need to, but most of us on this blog are on a very different path.
Why you are on this blog is a mystery to me, and all I can think is that you are looking for a way to get emotional resolution without feeling your pain. You won’t find that here. The other reason I think you come here is because it’s the only place you can discharge some of your anger and frustration about your life, which you blame the therapy for, and we are the only ones who listen to you.
One more thing. Re: who you like best on the blog; I wish you liked me best. I’ve always wanted that status with a pal.
Larry: Interesting. I must say I have always had some doubts about certain forms of meditation especial when Transcendental Meditation (TM) was all the rage.
Jack
What I find interesting about the article is that psychologists are finally looking deeper and beyond the naive idealistic notion that meditation is the path to peace and enlightenment, that in fact it detracts a person from dealing with their reality and worse can have negative consequences or side effects, just like any defense or drug.
I have found that using a kind of meditative state can work to access painful feelings.This method seems to lead to skipping later childhood feelings in favor of early ones, so I don’t do that anymore. Better to be talking to someone about what’s going on or even by myself rather than the meditative technique.Maybe not the kind of meditation they are talking about in the article.Phil Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 16:12:45 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
What you experienced with meditation doesn’t appear to be surprising, Phil. Here is more from the article:
“Why would meditation make you feel more stressed? There are various reasons. Trying to focus your awareness on what you are feeling and thinking can be a demanding cognitive exercise. Another reason that is less well known is that when you meditate “the scum rises to the surface”. These are the words of Swami Ambikananda Saraswati, a charismatic meditation teacher and translator of Hindu sacred texts who we interviewed for our book. She confided that most meditation teachers know about this, but don’t like to discuss the intrusive thoughts and feelings–such as sexual, sad, fearful or violent ones–that may arise rather abruptly when you meditate.”
Meditation employed to get me out of my head, I concluded was like allowing the feeling not thought, to dominate; consistent with Primal Therapy theory as I understand that aspect.. Interestingly I observed people with no defenses, the psychotic, the addict ,respond the most dramatically when their external crutches were removed. I’m not advocating that. I have no advice on how to do Primal. But I’ll never be deterred from believing it’s the one therapy that has the potential to heal neurosis.
I agreed to sit in on a Zen Psychotherapy group last fall. It was productive for me because it was so fucked up, all the mystical religiosity, that it brought up old rage and anger, to let loose when a safe distance away from those poor sad folks, being coached to avoid , ” reharming,” themselves by not feeling, rather giving it up to their gods, their dead, their pets, their plants, waiting on divine intervention to carry their load. People in deadly pain reassuring themselves and each other they were making progress.
Even feeling I am failing is better than than for me.
I’d run very fast in the other direction from any opinion held by any of the conventional head doctors. If emptying my mind of intentional thinking is meditation I work on that. Following the breath for me reduces my brain clutter to one none thing.
I’ve noticed Deepak Chopra, the Dalai Lama , the Maharishi Mahem Yogi, and a few Yogi’s I’ve seen on TV seem like uptight, twitchy dudes…. So there’s probably something in that. Suppose it might be an ad to flog anti depressants ?? lol
> thanks David.
> had no granddads, let alone grand granddads.
> and dad did not sing lullabyes for me as far as I remember.
> M
It was just me, being me, Maggie. Oh, may I call you, Maggie ??. I wrote it for my colicky middle babe; who is certain there never one created just for her. I rocked her for hours every night until she was 7 months old. Her mom couldn’t abide her distress.Caught in the middle, a precocious 3yr older brother and a 3 year younger sister living with a death sentence. She always felt she was the recipient of left overs. I know now she hated that position. She was also angry with me because my great love was felt as me keeping her from her mother.. How blind of me, she wanted her mother not me.
Even though I reserve my right to feel, adult arms around me have been very healing some times.
I guess I always want to be ‘objectionable’ which leads to ‘pokes’ so in that sense I bring it all on myself. Anyway the news is full of this gay marriage referendum in Ireland and of course mostly self congratulatory commentary all around. The Irish are ‘praised’ for being so forward looking the bad old days of the Catholic Church just a memory welcome to a brave new world of ‘equality’ and tolerance………………….that maybe but I can’t help seeing it in the true sense of more evidence of de-evolution. The human race is de-evolving not evolving much anymore.
Fish are being replaced by jelly fish, men and women are being replaced by unisex’ that are all the same. Also I was thinking about this whole idea of ‘progress’ in primal terms very often an ‘idea’ contains it’s opposite, so like in my case I might act ‘important’ because I feel UN-important maybe we have an idea or myth of ‘progress’ because we know deep down we are going backwards (de-evolving). We ‘invented’ progress as a notion because deep down we KNEW we are and are doing the opposite.
I wonder even if the loads of poisons, vaccines etc that children are exposed to leads to ‘unisex’.I have a feeling it might be a big factor.
I wonder what kind of ‘poke’ this will get though I should not provoke him though it does not take much…………..a hyper active with no hobbies comes out of the woodwork with even the SLIGHTEST breeze……………..
Babies have been born in North America for some years now with facial and body hair and adult genitalia,and breasts. It has been traced to growth hormone, beta agonists, and genetic manipulation in poultry production that grows a 27 day old chick to mature market chicken. Prior to 1991 all poultry that failed tolerances testing were sold to countries that had no standards. These birth anomalies were first documented in Guatemala, the number 1 recipient of our toxic chicken, Now we eat it at home, too.. These births in Canada are concentrated in areas with high Asian populations, with higher chicken consumption rates.
Our bloody christian business ethic in motion…
> Patrick,
> you are such a hypocrit to pretend you feel concerned about the kitten!
> all you want is to control and dominate, and make personal attacks to people who don’t bend to your bullying.
> your apologies clearly meant nothing at all, I wish you’d take off for once and for all, you have lost all credit with me definitely now.
> you are not worth this reply even, as you never really listen anyway, but I want to get this off my chest, your arrogance and mean craziness pisses me off big time, I have had it with you, and I don’t buy your victim role at all.
> poor sensitive concernd Patrick, ha, Jack is so very right about you, and so smart not to want to make up with you.
> I hope he keeps poking forever, who are you to complain anyway, Jack’s pokes are so innocent compared to what you do to anyone disagreeing with you.
> I am not gonna lower myself to say what comes to my mind, fill it in yourself, if you want to be a paria, so be it, I am really done with you now, you are pathetic and very sick
> M
Margaret – that is so pathetic, I mean I told you I would not likely change my opinion of what you did to your cat. And I don’t just mean your ‘cute’ final act I mean all along the constant interference.
Let me ask you a simple question? Do you really think your results were good, did you have in any sense a healthy cat? Try to answer that honestly id you have a healthy cat? If not do you wonder why not? Do you consider a cat with suits and creams and constant it seems ‘shots’ in any sense normal?
Quit your nonsense here try to grow up a bit and look at your actual results…………….before you find another victim. I ‘saw’ you eyeing up that poor cat that poor innocent cat soon to become your victim with all your nonsense. Pull you head out a bit if you can………………
Margaret, I’ve come around in my thinking and now see that Patrick should be “poked” as necessary here on the blog. Somebody has to do it, Jack enjoys it, and is good at it. They know each other for a long time. It’s good for Patrick as I think it constitutes a kind of virtual vaccination process. Phil Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 14:56:33 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
ha ha ha………………LOL!
Margaret – if you get a new cat you have a choice. Either go down the road you did before with very predictable results. Shoot the cat up and deal with all the nonsense that follow. You will subject the cat and we will have to listen to all about the suits and creams and so on
OR
You can leave the poor thing alone, let it be a cat, let it meet other cats let it be a cat. And see the I am sure much better results. It’s up to you. Now try to stop your ranting, think a bit and let some light into your brain…………………..
I just knew that there was some enlightenment to come from the one that is endeavoring to put Primal Therapy on the right path. Let the Pat be a cat … oooops!!! … did I not get the message right? I should have known better cos my Jim is always telling me that I don’t understand things. If I read enough (whilst having fun with it) who knows; I might even become (what’s the word) er … er …. Ah yep, I remember CURED. 😦 .
Jack
I got the book on Martin Luther and am half way through it. Just having some fun and I hope this don’t get me ‘banned’ I am pretty sure not Gretchen is very good on that issue not so for some of her ‘followers’ lol.
Anyway as I sort of expected I seem to be quite like Luther. He grew up on a farm had a pretty tough life, his parents were not so bad but tough no nonsense kind of people. Was beaten up a few times by both of them but again not so bad. He decided to become a monk and his dad did not like that at all. Thought he should get a trade of some kind make money and look after his parents when they were old.
But being a very stubborn boy he insisted on being a monk/priest, had some kind of profound experience that convinced him that was the way to go. He was VERY serious about his religion, had many ‘dark nights of the soul’ and wrestled with a lot of internal demons. But over a period and with some good support kind of reconciled in his own mind what Jesus, the Church and all the rest of it fitted in. He surprisingly found himself in a kind of ‘strong’ place. Not arrogant or a know it all but ‘strong’ he felt kind of grounded for the first time and well ready to be himself.
He didn’t become a ‘critic’ of the Church by design or intention it just sort of gradually happened. He first of all had problems with ‘indulgences’ and it kind of went on from there. He was above all I would say ‘stubborn’ if he got a notion in his head he would just not let go. This applied to him ever becoming a priest and now later in that if he felt something was wrong well he would say it and keep saying it if that is how he really saw things. This somehow connected also to the fact he was a ‘farm boy’ just tough and hard maybe, not polite like a town person a bit crude maybe at times but above all ‘serious’ about his religion and how it was practiced.
OK so I am Luther and I’m thinking about the others here. Who are they what are they like how does Luther see them etc etc.
First off of course Jack…………….Jack is the Pope, Pope Jack. He is older very experienced in his religion. Knows a lot about it can debate it and make his points very subtly and cleverly. But Luther sees him as ‘insincere’ not actually ‘serious’ about his religion unlike Luther. Over time he sees the Pope as a hypocrite he has one rule for himself another one for his ‘flock’. He is corrupt and has many bad personal habits but you would never know it because of his pious and authoritative front. To him his religion is almost a ‘game’ he plays with ideas he can spin things any which way and does. In debate he is not sincere, will take any point just to win. He will be on opposite sides in a flash whatever it takes to come out on top. Luther over time comes to despise this about him, Luther is not so fast with his mind but he is again that word ‘serious’ about his religion he does not respect and go for all this ‘spinning’. Luther tries to resolve things with him but the Pope is a slippery and tricky character and wants nothing more to do with this earnest and serious farm boy. Luther then thinks ‘just as well’ he is a snake in the grass and is better off with no further dealings with him.
Next Larry………………Larry is a good person, he IS sincere about his Faith. He practices it day and night to the point of self flagellation. He ransacks his mind for any ‘sins’ he might have and diligently works on over coming them. He is one of the best monks Luther has ever met. But Luther is now in a different place at one time he was like Larry if maybe not as so ‘believing’ but to Luther now that was in the past time to move on a bit. He feels Larry is ‘stuck’ he seems to repeat his expiation of his sins over and over and over. Luther does not deny he is a good and sincere person but wonders why he has to go over the same things it seems forever and ever. He does not seem happy or have great joy in life actually the opposite he seems almost addicted to pain and painful things. Luther would never deny him as being a good even a very good person but wonders if somehow he could move out of what he seems permanently in.
Next Margaret she is the only woman in their group. Margaret has some terrible traumas and personal difficulties to deal with on a daily basis. Her life is very hard but she is brave and a fighter. Luther has always like her and admired her courage and strength but lately he does not get on so well with her. She seems to him to almost become the ‘crazy person in the tower’. She moans and wails and also lashes out especially at Luther. It’s true he criticizes her he questions some of the stuff she does and says. She seems unable to deal with this, maybe her situation is too tough and hard for her so she lashes out at Luther a lot. He being the stubborn farm boy is not so good at backing down though he does ‘understand’ her and he tries to make allowances and be a good person to her. But she wails and screams at him and at a certain point he thinks I am not going to listen to this anymore he has other stuff to do
The last main one if Guru……………Luther likes him the most. Luther even wonders if he is a Catholic at all. He seems a very ‘free thinker’ but at the same time a believer and L. likes that very much. He also lives far away from Germany or even Rome off somewhere not sure where maybe the Orkney Islands or some such. L. though does not really know him as I say he lives far away and there is something ‘far away’ about him as a person too. Luther wonders where he fits into the Church really he is close to one of the main Madonna’s in the Church and somehow that anchors him to his Faith. He comes and goes disappears somewhere for long periods. But Luther always finds him pretty much agreeable and subtle about their Faith or any other issues too. But Luther also wonders if he ever was to get into some serious problem with the Church where would he be? whose side would he be on? Luther feels instinctively he would not be on his side so though he likes him he would not consider him someone he could count on if some serious trouble brewed.
That’s about it a new guy called David just showed up. Luther is not sure what to make of him. He seems a bit of a swash buckler he rides in on horseback and there is an element of braggadocio about him. He talks a lot and seems to have done a lot and been many places but though Luther finds him fine and ok he wonders if this guy will ‘last’. To really ‘last’ here in this little group it seems to help not to have any children and to live alone. Maybe people with children just have better things to do. There is something very dead end about the little group and is also seems to help ‘last’ if you live on your own. That way there is no interference from what we might call ‘reality’ either the reality of living with someone else of the reality of having children. To really be in the group it seems to help in terms of ‘lasting’ not to have much connection with what most people would call ‘reality’ David seems to have children so I am skeptical if he will ‘last’ not saying that is a bad thing at all – not lasting that is.
Like there are several others on the periphery of the group but mostly as I say they either have children or live with someone. They get tired of the banter it really seems to fit only for people who are kind of loners and maybe we could say ‘weirdos’. And that includes Luther.
I suggested you write a thesis … not an analogy of who you THINK you are … and who you deem others are … in your fantasia.
Is it possible you will attempt to enlighten us all as why Primal Therapy went of the rails?????
Jack
That is a cute perspective, albeit superficial.
Thanks Larry. It’s nice you thought it ‘cute’…………
Thanks for mentioning me Patrick. My children are 30’s and 40’s. My youngest who died at age 4 after heart surgery would have been 38 today. So I think that has anesthetized me a bit this day. I miss her. I owe the kids a lot. They brought out the best of my humanity.
I’ve lived alone for 13 years, and am not well traveled. And I do run on too much. It saved my life dealing with ma; long and complicated accounts of explanation.
I think I am too insecure and self critical to ever be the braggart. I’d like to be though. It’s been a curse having tried/driven to know, to do so many things and none of them to a point of competence. I was copying my father’s shtik.. Thought he might get to like me.He never noticed.
Me thinketh Luther is more considerate than he putteth out in the realm.
I like your descriptor, ” devolution.” It takes great courage to say it. I respect that.
I wrote you a tale of trucking with Frank. Not as entertaining as your fare.
Correction, it never occurred to me at the time why I had to know how to do everything.
You made a terrible spelling mistake here It should be L O O S E R not L U T H E R
I can hardly believe the utter conceite you show here. You’re almost as conceited as me.
But it would take a great deal to better a Pope Jack the very first:-
Earth has not anything to flow more fur:
Dull would he be an ass-hole who could piss by
a shite so touchy in it’s bigotry
This shitty now doth like a garment wear
to beautify this mone-ing: silly and bare
Shits travels; doom, theater, and tantrums
Lies open unto the feels and pry
all bright and piffleling in the smoggy eire
Ne’er did some more brutally speak
in its First blustter, bully, shock or hell
Ne’er saw I, ne’er felt a palm to creep
The drivel glideth at it’s own discrete will
Dear Guru the very Primal seems to weep
And all that mighty fart is lie-ing …… still
Silly Waddyworth
Jack,I’m very impressed with your the verses you wrote here.I hope you have more like this which can be collected ina book.Phil Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 15:56:47 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sorry I meant this for Margaret: I should have said “Nothing like having a ‘cock in a frock in the batty-can’ …”.
Papa Jackus
anudder mispel mabe ?? or is there no ,” a ,” on yer puter kebord ? Jack us ???
> David,
> I was impressed with your ability to be vulnerable by saying you actually had hoped to be liked most.
>
> of course I have my opinion on who you wanted to be liked by at that moment, but that is just my personal thing of course.
>
> I have asked myself if I hate P but I don’t, he would be the first person I’d hate, and obviously I am not a hater.
> but well, I have little to no respect for him anymore.
> of course like everyone he has all the potential to be a fine person, but he chooses consistently to remain stuck in what Barry once refeered to as his ‘boarish’ behavior.
>
> I hope you won’t find it out the hard way, you sound like a likeable person.
> M
Margaret – to be clear Barry said I was ‘boorish’ not ‘boarish’. I looked up the meaning of ‘boor’ this is what it says
: peasant
: a rude or insensitive person
Luther was a ‘peasant’ also but ok enough about him. Boarish is a different word from ‘boar’ meaning a male pig. So to be clear Barry did not call me a male pig he called me a peasant and a rude and insensitive person
By the way the dictionary says ‘boor’ come from the Dutch ‘boer’ which I suppose was the same word about the Boer War etc.So there is a Dutch connection there.
nothing more soothing than a hot cuppa, ” Dutch Process Cocoa….”
Ya love pickin at scabs, dontcha Patrick ???? i give ya 3 hail , “chocolate chip cookies……..”
cheers
Yeah, a biggy for me. I generally ask for nothing. And then I self questioned, was I being real or was it manipulative ??
I have no way to assess the need behind anyone’s expressions voiced here. I just take things at face value. Sometimes I can slough off, sometimes I bleed.
Just for myself. Listening to some John Phillips Sousa and other marching band music on prarie home companion. takes me back to my navy boot camp days. joined navy to get away from the fact that my best friend had been murdered earlier in the year. should i listen to this song over and overr and lay down in bed and let tears come up? nah, just keep paying bills and other non-essesntials.
whatever feels right, Otto
Jeez they are going wild with sad songs on prarie home. tenting tonight on the old campground. well is it a sad song? maybe when they read something by walt whitman or some other guy from the civil war battles antitem and all the kids getting killed. ok more luyrics. i guess it is a sad song abouit war. i did not know that.
my favorite Walt Whitman writing is from, “…. why I’d rather live with the animals….”
>
> David,
> well, you can call me Maggie, as you asked me if you could, which is nice.
> I would not allow anyone to do so, or well, can’t make them not do so if they do, but my reaction surely depends on how things get addressed.
>
> just out of curiosity, David, as you seem to know Barry and Gretchen well, have you ever tried having a phone session?
> I found they work amazingly well, although I do so less and less now as the urge gets smaller, they are invvariable very productive and nice.
> that with the occasional e-mail helps to stay connected while not being there in person.
>
> just curious, as you seemed to regret not being able to go there, maybe it would be an option?
>
> what I tend to do if it has been a while, is to send some e-mail first with some of the facts and things and feelings that occurred lately, as it saves time in the session to go to what it triggers.
>
> having a buddy is also a sheer luxury, which I only found out after years of therapy and telling myself I did not need one.
> have had a few and am very happy with my actual one, it is so liberating to be able to talk openly and honestly to someone and to build a trusting relationship.
> it does not always work out well, but it is always an interesting experience.
> so again being curious, do you have a buddy or welll, good friends you can share your stuff with?
> sure hope so of course.
>
> larry, I really enjoyed that long comment you posted recently, it was very to the point.
> M
Thank you. Maggie. Barry was my Primary therapist. My views are formed from observing he and Gretchen in big group, and hearing how fellow therapists felt about them.
My financial situation does not permit the luxury of purchasing sessions of any kind. Briefly, my retirement fund was raped by unscrupulous administrators leaving me with a paltry $1400.00/mo. A spinal cord stress injury last Nov. precludes me from earning at this time.
I had two Primal pals who have rediscovered christianity,” informed normal,” lives with non Primal mates, which does not include Primal practice. Their wives decided primal was hokey. They decided that the marriages were more important than asserting their rights to feeling and pre-marriage lifestyle choices like vegetarianism. I respect that.
I am unable to make such compromises, can respect others’ choices but won’t have them foisted on me. Always a price to pay.
Last night, friends who knew it was my deceased daughter’s birthday today invited me to dinner. While listening with sincere interest to their early life and current daily struggles, I took the leap of sharing that I had some similar experiences..She disappeared to do,”another,” cleaning of their newly acquired adjacent cottage; he shared that he needed to have an early bed time. And, oh, yes, she bought that cottage from beneath my nose, when the owners asked her how ho could get in touch with me. He had intended to offer it to me on a rent to own basis. She told them she knew I was not interested.
My best boyhood pal contacted me today out of the blue. His wife was a really cool Hippie when I knew her. He wants to catch up on the past 60 years. That was nice and brought lots of tears.
david
correction: I meant to write how fellow patients, not fellow therapists, felt/related their experience with Barry and Gretchen. That combination of being straight and genuinely kind touched me. For that reason I say, I’d trust them and Vivian with my life.
ok laying down, trying, pauls face. hung out in garage wrapping newspapers to throw to houses. boot camp hard for a guy like me. alone amongst the strange other boots. ok a few tears. lay down again. maybe the thunderer will keep repeating on youitube for me
that whole navy period of my life, so sad, so drunk, so insane…
wow didnt think i could get that many tears and sobs out at home llistening to music. san diego boot camp. where so many young kids like me had been graduated into death zones/war. i liked the marching when thjey plauyerd the music and i liked eating. not much else
wow. i dont feel any better. coujld it be the millions of dollars of bills and the wife who completely does not understand the millions of dollars of bills? at least she went away to take the kid grocery shopping, or i would not have had the solitude to feel this tiny bit. what a big part of my life those few years in the navy was. a real killer.
RETREAT before it is too late. Those Iraqi soldiers surely know that they don’t want their heads cut off by ISIS. Get out of Nazi Germany, before it is too late. I don’t know why I am saying this, I just am. RETREAT. PULL BACK. TAKE COVER. SHIT’S A COMIN’.
CANT STOP SOBBING. MILITARY SCHOOL IN THIS TOO. UNIFORMS. GRIEF. NO FUCKING DESCRIPTION FOR THE LONELY SAD TIMES IN MY LIFE!
Fuck the fuckers who fucked with our heads.
> wow pope Jack,
> (so far) hiddden talents!!
> Hallelujah, smiley, M
Margaret: Dank u wel: Nothing like having a “cock in frock in the batty-can”
Phil: I already wrote two books un only made $5.00 last year in royalties, so! I’m not sure I could yearn any more from a book on poe-try.
Pope Jackus the 1st
I request, no damn it, I’m a primaler, so, I demand, that both you, Jack, and Patrick, proceed such posts with a warning, ” You are Advised to Read the Following Seated,” when you are about to slay with such incredibly well crafted hilarity. I still don’t know and do not need to know if you and Patrick are realy lay therapists directing us. But if your issues are real, for the sake of the world you two should heal and take your talents on tour. Thank you,, thank you, thank you…
………nah! too much Papal Bull……………….
When you feel like it, I’ll relish your next Mike Lewis installment. I will sit on the floor to avoid injury.
OK I will ‘do’ one more but it is not a M.L. one it is another one a different primal mover. But give me a few days but I promise you one thing it will be all true…………….I am not so talented that I can just make stuff up. Then I would be a novelist which was always a great mystery to me how people do that.
The feeling level of your writing tells me it’s all true. Odd how such intense hilarity can be inoculated with pain, mine. Don’t have a clue what that’s about. Thank you for sharing. When I was at my daughter’s grave yesterday and then later visited places where my kids and I played I felt a mixture of the same things. Maybe it will reveal itself.
David: My computer has a mind of its own and does all sorts of things that I tell it not to do. I should do what my father did with me .. in his failing attempt to train me … and spank it. that might solve the problem.
You Are Advised to Read the Following Seated,
So!!! back to your first comment. I’m not sure if you are telling me what to do, or just pleading cos you’ve got a bit of something or other going on. I welcome it when some decide that they would like to direct how this blog should procede, cos I have not the slightest idea … and I’m knda curious. I do figure (maybe wrongly), that if there were rules about what can or cannot be said/written here that the ones running the joint would put their oar in. I know in the Primal Support Group that there is a moderator to keep it all nice and sweet and loving and safe. BUT, that to me, is not what liife is about. I could well have gotten ‘what this life is about’, all wrong … but so far I not been put in prison for it … again So presumably (this blog) is what I thought it was … a forum for expressing oneself. Sort of getting it off ones chest … as t’were, whilst not acting it out. But who knows, I could be TOTALLY off point.
I have been wonderin lately if there is much fun and laughter in heaven. I have never heard of it, from those that supposedly know what goes on up there, but if there isn’t, then I want to go to the other place, cos I hear it much warmer and I’m not fond of cold, and who knows; there might be more fun. I’m not sure if there is any sex in heaven either. I wonder sometimes why it’s all allowed doen here, but then up there they’re all, seemingly, just lieing arround, piously praising the old man sat on the throne. I would find all that a bit boring.
Jack
And I thought it was just me. I spend as much time swearing at and correcting this possessed thing as composing.
I’d never tell you what to do or think. My failure at being humorous again. You, and Patrick, simply slay me when you douse me with your gift for hilarity. Pat’s Mike Lewis stories. You are one of the funniest people I have ever , “heard.”I have been on the floor writhing.
You both are also profound in other entries.
I find myself saying ” Come one guys, get over it,” when battle starts. But it’s none of my business.
I simply am not sure when you, ” poke,” each other, ( a new term for me,) if you are always serious. If it is that’s for you guys to work out, even if that means not forgiving. I do have this thing, more pronounced since my 4 year old’s death, that I wish everyone could just be okay with each other. I’ve decided that I quite like both of you.
I may have gotten it all wrong but I thought Primal would lead to not not needing to hold on to old resentments. I would never let Charles Manson to go out again, but I no longer am filled with the initial feelings.
If the blog is gloves off therapy I see danger that I could stay on a wrong tangent forever; and wouldn’t that fly in the face of the evolution of therapy that says it is non productive even harmful, to be pushed into feelings. If I could have worked it out with ,”real world rules,” I would never have started Primal. Those real world rules allowed my child abuse to continue..
I pronounced dog and heaven a cruel hoax nearly 60 years ago. So I have no thoughts that go there. I felt enormously empowered when I came out of the christ/god closet and said I did not believe. For years it was my secret. I bet few clergy believe the myth either. Richard Dawkins says the old Brit country clerics were atheists.
If there is a heaven I hope it’s FREE LOVE HIPPIES make the rules, lots of pot and sex….
I really like this one. I heard a wild discussion yesterday; a born again christian wrestling with her biggest worry, where will meat come from in heaven, since there is no death there. It made great fodder for belly laffs.
Hi All
I’ve been reluctant to write as I felt I am not getting something, I am not clear as to what I am feeling. I’ve been “down”. Feel so removed from LA, from a place where I can express my feelings and talk about them, without repercussions. It seems that the only time I feel completely “myself”, when I am in group either at the retreat or in LA. That doesn’t give me much time to enjoy life to the fullest.
For years, no matter what I touch, it goes to shit. Every premise I based an investment on, or deal I get involved in, has been wrong. And it goes way back to early childhood.
Now as I wonder around, I start to remember being so lonely as a kid. When I walked the streets as a 13 year old in Belgium, while we were immigrating, I thought my heart would split and I would die. Lately, I’ve been thinking of death. Imminent death. I’ve done all I can, but I could never make myself happy, at peace, not driven for all the wrong reasons. I’ve started to withdraw somewhat, after all, nothing helps, NOTHING IS IT.
But then I read Arthur Janov’s latest posting on “On feeling lonely again”.
Wow. It blew me away. I’ve been running away from this feeling for years. Forever, I’ve been talking about being “connected”. Lately I’ve been lamenting why some of the old friends do not keep in touch. It’s always up to me to keep the “relationship ” going. You have to ask why has that been so important to me. after all, I don’t “suffer” from loneliness. I have friends on four continents.
But nothing is ever “IT”. It’s hard to believe that in spite of growing up surrounded by family and friends, I missed out on the most basic staple…. touch…..mum looking into my eyes…..dad not fucking with me, competing with me….mum not hearing my wails and not listening to me asking for what I needed back then.
My kids are fine. My grandchild is fine. I am a good step dad, and a really good step grandpa. I can’t do more. I am running out of energy, I want to give up my struggle and die. I am convinced that I will die. No matter how much I try, how much I struggle, I will never get IT.
So I might as well die. Life will go on.
………….
I am sure what i wrote above is not clear, but I can’t clear my head. I want IT.
Tom
Tom: Your comment really touched me, and I for reasons I can’t think of right now, I want to help. But I know I can’t and will not go there.
However, I will tell you my story. Maybe I have already done so.
The lowest point in my adult life was after a break-up of the most passionate love of my life. Co-incidentally it was with the Australian guy I have mentioned to you before. I was so depressed, lost and miserable and run around like a “blue house fly” not knowing where to turn, what to do to make the awfulness go away. I wanted desperately for someone to just listen to me … but after about 2 to 3 minutes anyone I spoke to, then wanted out: and I had to end it there. Nothing worked. My mother rang me during that period, and tried to pacify me … but that didn’t work either. But after my mothers phone call, I began to cry. What I cried about first was about the mess I was in. But later that day I began crying again. I was totally unable to keep the tears back, but at the same timer I was having to work as I had no money. I now began crying at work … quietly, to myself.
I was living with a girl who was a mutual friend of another girl I knew. She recommended that I see a psychology friend of hers, and I spent 15 pounds (more than I could afford) … but that did nothing for me either. I then remember being in her kitchen and I just burst into the most deep crying that I had ever known (in my adult life). Afterwards she remarked that she never knew that two gay guys could be that much in love. She assumed that only a man and a woman could experience that depth of love. Somehow that gave me some confidence. I later went off to see my doctor (who was a personal friend) and on getting into his surgery he said he couldn’t believe that I was so desperate: having known me as a guy he always considered up, bright and fun. He pulled out of his cupboard a bottle of whiskey and drank from the bottle and burst into tears with me, right there in his surgery.
Slowly from there on, I began to have confidence that my crying was not a downer. I must, over that period have cried buckets full of tears. I shortly afterwards went off to Ibiza to be among the hippies and there I read “The Primal Scream” I have known from there-on in- that my tears are my sanity.
In-spite of all the fun I have been having recently on this blog, I have also done quite a bit of crying. There is something imminent in the last few days that I am very sad about. I have not totally resolved it all yet, and don’t, as of now, feel the need to talk about it on the blog, or even with my Jimbo (he hates me crying). I cry for as long as I need to, in bed; on my own; at night. It’s not the sadness for me, but the crying that accompanies the sadness, and for which I know is the totality of my feelings. That’s what works for me.
Jack.
Tom, your comment is very clear. The void as you write about it is palpable.
You brought my truth to the forefront, Tom. What is there to do when what you describe, Tom, is the reality. I gave and give, and give, love, loyalty, be the best friend, and all I get is left overs, complimentary acknowledgement. I’d like to scream, go away, if all you want to give back, all I’m worth is obligatory acknowledgement. But I can’t when I might hurt someone or cut off the hope of getting something. Feeling all of that does not change the reality. Wish I could stop feeling.
Barry once said to me that it is impossible to lose a friend, someone who really loves you, you can’t drive them away. If they ever stop they never were. I suppose I should say that’s how I remember him expressing it.
This arrived in my e box from an Elder I respect, as in Aboriginal Elder, not LDS:
Once you make a friend, a friend never leaves you, even to death. So a real friend is really hard to find.”
–Wallace Black Elk, LAKOTA
Once, an Elder told me he had made a decision to be my friend. He said this friendship wasn’t based on anything I had done; or how I acted; he said the friendship was based on his decision. He decided to be my friend. This friendship has happened like he said. Even if I don’t see him for a long time, or if I get mad at him, he has never changed his decision. This is true friendship.
Tom, a late response to what you wrote. What you talk about sounds so difficult and I’m hearing that it’s continuous. I hope you can get some good relief soon. You deserve a break. Phil
> Dear Tom,
> it hurts reading about your pain. wish I could do more than just listen and hear you, but I can’t.
> my heart goes out to you.
> are you going to the summer retreat?
> I do hope you are going, it sounds like a big one is coming up..
> you have a heavy load on your back, but you are a strong person too so please hang in there.
> in the present you are not alone, ask your grandson, without so many words..
> what dit Art say about feeling lonely that touched you so deeply?
> M
All is very quiet here. Feeling scared like I’ve been deserted. It’s in the bottom of my gut like I’m going to die. Like early days of Elementary school. Like dragging my mom off the beach when she said she was there to drown herself because I didn’t love her. If I loved her I’d be a better boy.
Hi Margaret
Feeling lonely is excruciatingly painful. If it goes on for too long part of you dies. Just go back and look at the documentaries of the old Romanian orphanages. How those kids looked blank already, how they were rocking themselves to give themselves “some comfort”. Every time I watched those pictures I would get tearful and say I feel/felt like that. But I was somewhat removed from it. Now I realise that that’s exactly how I felt. Yes, I can and did feel like an orphan in my parents home. Not my home, their home.
So when the therapists would ask me early on, some 30 years ago, Tom, what do you want? I couldn’t answer nor did I know what I wanted, other than “TO BE TAKEN CARE OF”. Is that so much to ask? After all, you are a therapist, so TAKE CARE OF ME!. NOW!
Do you look at an infant, or a baby just born and ask…..what do you want?
What drives me nuts is that I have an affinity with young kids. I look at them in their pram, smile or pull a face and they start smiling back at me. I don’t know if I wrote about my step grandson, but he had grandparents day in his “school” (kindergarten, as he is only three years old). He insisted that I come. How is that possible? The other day I picked him up from school. On the way home he wanted to stop at the shopping centre to buy some cherries. After checking with my step daughter on the cell phone, I turned around, parked the car and we went upstairs to the fruit shop and bought his cherries. Walking back towards the under ground car park we passed a little merry go round. Idan, his name, looked at me and asked if he can have a ride. I said yes. He then asked for the $2 coin which I gave him. While he was riding, an other little boy walked up to me and asked if he can get on. I said yes. After, his mum told him to thank me. I simply said…..KIDS RULE.
Last Monday, when I put my grandson to bed, he turned to me and asked for me to pat his head and stomach. I nearly cried. I was so happy he could still be so direct and knowing what he wants. He is ten years old in June.
But I missed out on all the above. It hurts. There is a void, a sense of alienation. An emptiness that nothing can fill in the present.
So that’s how it is for me Margaret.
And now at my age, I am scared to make any major decisions, work wise, because I am not sure if I am acting out, or it may just be the right decision. One thing I know is that I will not go into any partnership, with the neurotic hope of being taken care of.
Oh yes, I am going to the summer retreat.
Thank you for your feed back, Jack, Larry and David.
Tom
Wish I had something to give you, Tom; but your story overwhelms me with the want and need in me that I am convinced will never be met. This seems totally out of place, inappropriate, but I remember my father telling a story about attending the last hanging in our county. He said the hangman who knew the convicted man asked if he could get him anything, asking if he’d like a chew of tobacco. He said the accused answered, ” No thanks, t’aint healthy.”
I just posted below, on the wrong page, before reading Tom’s and David’s latest comments. Tom and David I feel I understand you both, better and better.
I sure could use and understanding ear, a reassuring hug right now.
Work is good….the new students working for me are good people nice to be with who make my job as their supervisor easy, last Sunday I much enjoyed an arduous 11 km hike with the Nordic Ski Club in the Nesbitt Forest an hour from here in 30 C heat, I attended my bereavement group meeting last night after several weeks absence and found it easier than ever to talk to people and talk during the meeting…while feeling respected, appreciated, and people attentive to what i have to say……But I feel so empty.
….And I don’t really believe I can change it, nor can anyone. I’ve been crying a lot, for days in a row with the odd break and rest for a day. How was I so lucky to have met my wife? How unusual and profound it was to connect warmly, lovingly to someone? Was being with her a lucky for me one time peak of my life? How cold and callous that it came to a premature end. How empty now. How empty before but I had never understood until I met her and felt for the first time the magic of connection. Now I see the emptiness now, and the emptiness of childhood. No one can make the childhood emptiness go away, I can’t escape it, it’s reality forever.
I cry and sink into the emptiness of my childhood, I’m there seeing it, crying it finally, the unbearable truth that I’m small and helpless I need their love but – they – don’t – can’t – love me – see me..too horrible to contemplate when you are 3…too horrible to understand I will know utter excruciating aloneness..forever. It’s always been my truth. i’m letting myself see it more, feel it more, a truth that has me at a breaking point and after all these decades i can’t run from anymore.
I’m waking up to the horrible aloneness that’s been my albatross draining me of life. I’m waking up and seeing what my childhood was, that is still in me, that made me need therapy to try at some recovery from. I would scream into madness if I let myself see all of it all at once. I feel so empty and alone.
No one can now give me what I needed then, but I wish there was someone right now to see me and hug me warmly. Without it life is trying somehow to have fun while utterly cold empty existence lurks in the shadows, around the corner, a few stealthy steps behind me gathering to pounce.
Hi Tom, Larry, David, Jo, and everyone I relate to what everyone is saying. I’m also a member of this club.I’m not alone in the present, as I have my family. But it doesn’t take much to trigger the feeling that I’m all alonebeing neglected and not seen because that was my reality as a child.This feeling kind of builds up over days to the point where I expressit intensely. This happens once or twice a week.If I am left alone here, if my family goes away for even one day, it can be devastating.I also work with seeing how I shut down as a child because it hurt so much.Then I was unable to connect with people to try to get what I need.I stopped trying. Phil
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 03:29:58 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Tom, David, Larry, that is my feeling too……I am so alone, scared…..TAKE CARE OF ME….
> David,
> how old were you when that happened with your mom on the beach? what was the situation like that led to this,?
>
> I hear all this pain here, Tom, Larry, David, and it resonates, and at the same time I feel like saying for a reason not completely clear to me, ‘don’t forget to count your blessings too’.
> maybe it is my survival mechanism driving me to want to say this, at some point all that is left is making the best of things, while they are far from perfect, or even not good at all..
>
> but hey, of course it is also very useful to look our pain in the face and I know you guys do really make the best of your lives, so I guess I am talking to myself here, kind of ‘ get up and move’, take care of yourself, do what you need to do, work, take risks, and accept the sadness and even the fear as it comes..
>
> a cleanup team is about to show up here, so I have been up since 5.30 am to get ready for the invasion…
>
> somehwo I feel we are all warriors fighting to make life and if possible bits and pieces of our world better..
> hang in there guys, and please keep writing!
> M
from age 4 – 8, for sure. Or she would hide when I came home from school to check on her. She had lots of reasons fro her behaviour. I was unwanted and terrorized from the beginning by her. She had some good moments with me. Some very sick. Then she would tell me of her abuse and I’d feel sorry for her. That cut me off from my feelings, too.
It would take a novel to describe. The emotional abuse throughout teen years to convince me I was unlikable, unlovable., by anyone. It was a whole package, mom, sibs, harder to catch dad at it but there are a few scenes. Throw in thee needless poverty….
> I have two guys here right now cleaning the appartment, Ahmed and Glenn, they are still in the back, bathroom and kithchen, cleaning walls and windows..
>
> just had a cup of tea with them and some cookies, feels a bit strange to have two young male strangers here fiddling around with my stuff..
>
> have put my bag a bit out of sight, and try to keep myself busy in the meantime, while keeping in touch with them from time to time..
>
> i thought they would take stuff to the containerpark for me as well, had it all ready and almost sorted out, in bags and boxes, just mainly old software and computer wrappings, but they can’t do that today..
>
> well, gonna look at things from the bright side, what is cleaner is cleaner, even if it is not going the way I thought it would, and we seem to get along, a bit awkwardly so as one speaks the language only partially and the other seems to be a bit of a right-winger, haha, a funny combination but luckily they seeem to get along well with each other..
>
> will be glad when they are gone in a few hours, as it does feel like an invasion, which of course I invited, but well, a necessary and useful intrusion into my privacy, luckily not on a regular basis..
>
> they are also gonna give the large terrace a good scrub, and clean the very high front windows..
>
> sigh..
> it is ok though..
> they told me they are used to really bad situations at drunk people’s houses or junkies were they have to go for sanitary reasons, so for them now it is a luxury being here, an easy job..
>
> is difficult though to be able to do some stuff myself while trying to keep out of the way of two guys at a time moving around with buckets and a ladder..
> but well, should not complain, should I, smiley??
> M
>
> it occurred to me what I said before about counting one’s blessing might come across as not respecting people feeling down. of course I do, as I feel down myself a lot of the time, and feelings of pain also easily get triggered.
> on the other hand that feels also reassuring, a sign the connection is open and the process continues.
>
> I relate to all of what is described here, I get torn between the ‘safety’ of being on my own, not much risk for rejection or indifference, and being so lonely the need gets stronger than the fear and makes me go out and socialize ..
>
> every time I manage to do so, specially when it is something niew like meeting a new fellow student, afterwards I feel how it made me stronger, a fear conquered seems to be very constructive, but well, when a new challenge approaches ratio gets overruled by old feeling again and it gets difficult once more to get over the threshold to go out and mix and mingle..
>
> we can all only do our best, face stuff and have as pleasant a life in the meantime I guess.
>
> well, now about the clanup team, they are gone, hurray, the worst cleaners I have ever met!!
> one of them was almost acceptable, but the other one was well, not good at all..
> I think he used a wrong product, a product to remove calcium rests and possible sources of fungus from sanitary devices, sinks, bathtubs etc., and he seems to have used it on the windows and some floors, leaving kind of a toxic smell, so I will have to do at least the floors again with regular neutral soap…
>
> not even half of what I wanted them to do is done, not even a quart really, and things they did are only done halfway..
>
> I am a better cleaner myself, even with pooor eyesight.but hey, the windows are ‘done’ and the walls of the bathroom got ‘cleaned’, and my terrace got scrubbed here and there, mostly in the middle as they did not seem to move much stuff around..
>
> gave it a try, and well, all the stuff I got ready for the containerpark is still here as well, will ask a girlfriend to come by with a car to take it there..
>
> so far for that cleanup team, a one time experience!
> M
>
> I guess, what I said about despite the old pain we feel, we make ourseves a better life in the meantime,if we talk a lot about our pain here, it is because here that is possible, while in other social circles it is better to focus on the fun part of life or on just being sociable and enjoying it.
> I merely say so because well, some people do not seem to get that, it irritates me that fine and active people like Larry were not for the first time described as if he does nothing else but focus on his sadness and stay stuck in it.
>
> that is so unjust and shortsighted, but well, it is always the same one coming up with the same bullshit, so I should let it go by I guess..
> everyone else here seems to find a fine balance between facing the old pain and living a full life as well as possible.
>
> my reaction is one of wanting to defend people I like and respect against being described in an offensive way, I know all of them are strong enough to just shrug their shoulders, but for the silent readers who are trying to form an opinion, just felt like saying this, there is a lot of fine and very functionable people here, with very high moral standards and kind hearts, who keep working on themselves to get better still.
> I am proud to know them.
> M
Margaret, Your right that it can look like we are wallowing in our pain. The blog is a good place to complain. I feel real good this morning actually. My older son is home from college and he will be around all summer because he has a local internship. It was nice to see him and his younger brother, who is finishing up high school, before I left the house this morning. I slept well and it’s a beautiful day. So those might be some of the reasons why I’m feeling good today. Phil Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:52:56 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes Margaret – Larry can ‘defend’; himself but the interesting thing is he doesn’t or didn’t seem to feel the need to maybe he did not see it as an ‘attack’ if I remember he said he found it ‘cute’…………….but YOU do. How come?
Like the other one with a dead micro-biome you seem full of resentments if anything at all disturbs your ‘religion’ you are scratchy and touchy and so full of offense. But like the other one I ‘understand’ even if is still pisses me off……………..
Quote:- “…..he did not see it as an ‘attack’ he said he found it ‘cute’…………….but YOU do. How come? Like the other one with a dead micro-biome you seem full of resentments”. So!!!! what are you FULL of, peaches and cream and just plain cute???. For myself, I have never thought of you as cute, and I doubt that my shit (biome) lights up. Least-ways when I defecate, its just plain brown and doesn’t illuminate in the dark. Maybe yours does. I’ll take your word for it. 😦 .
Jack
Jack, That’s a good one. I wonder then if swallowing some fire flies would be a good thing. Maybe lighten things up. Phil
Phil: Yeah! I thought of another one would be to swallow some pixels; you know, the ones that glow on the computer screen. But then Patrick is perhaps dead right, and I don’t have any inner glow. The only thing I would like to suggest to Patrick is that he allows for some of the inner glow to flow out and be on the outside. Maybe if he goes on the Kruse cruise he’ll find out how to do it. Poor guy … he really doesn’t seem to know just where his feelings emanate from. :((
Jack
Jack, As I understood it, the sun takes care of the outer glow. I watched part of Dr. Kruse’s video. Problem is most of us are too covered up with clothes and are indoors much of the time. Maybe that’s why the IPA always likes to offer nude bathing at their convention. I didn’t participate in that the one time I attended so I don’t know if it also helps to bring up feelings. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
jackwaddington commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20063) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
Phil: I have done more than my fair share of nude sunbathing in my time and now the skin is all shriveled up, and even my bottom is now droopy. So !!! not sure that is an answer either, but I do love nudity. I always felt there was an honesty about it.
Clothes, make-up, hair-does, Places we live in, jobs. certificates hanging on the walls, fabrications, pseudonyms, and many others I can’t think of right now … are to me … means to hiding the real identity. Who am I really???
What in the end does it all matter as long as someone loves me.
Jack.
Phil: Yeah! I thought of another one would be to swallow some pixels; you know, the ones that glow on the computer screen. But then Patrick is perhaps dead right, and I don’t have any inner glow. The only thing I would like to suggest to Patrick is that he allows for some of the inner glow to flow out and be on the outside. Maybe if he goes on the Kruse cruise he’ll find out how to do it. Poor guy … he really doesn’t seem to know just where his feelings emanate from. 😦
Jack
Jack, I agree that nudity shouldn’t be a problem. But I’ve had enough problems to deal with while wearing clothes; being self conscious and worried what people think of me. At the beach, I just want to have a good time and never wanted to add possible problems to the experience. So nude bathing never appealed to me. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
jackwaddington commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20066) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
Phil: Suggestion … start of being nude in the bedroom then progress to the bathroom especially if you have a full length mirror there. Next doing around the house. Then in the garden. Then find a nude beach and slowly peel off that outer skin make up from animals and vegetation. When you see others on the beach that are uglier than you, then you’ll be riding high.
My problem is that it would be real hard … now … to find someone uglier than me. But what the fuck; if I get to a nude beach I’ll just strip off, and see others finding it hard to look at me. That’ll be their problem. Meantime, I’ll be sucking up all that vitamin D … and shriveling up even more.
Problem … getting to the only nude beach I know of is Point Dume. To far to drive.
Jack
I once had a patient who was an ex nun. Before she,” kicked the habit,” she had acquired huge body issue conflicts. She used to tub bathe wearing a floor length cotton garment. Shedding that costume was a major break for freedom. My mask was being invisible. No, I did not really think I could become invisible,, figurative speech ??? hah
Hi Jack, if you can’t find fire flies there could be another way. The Museum of Ideas and Inventions (MIBA) of Barcelona, Spain has on display fluorescent dog biscuits and food which will provide glow-in-the-dark dog poop. Supposedly helpful for night joggers to not step in. It is said will be coming to the USA. Munch, munch.
Sylvia: Where can I buy these dog biscuits in the LA area. I would love to have my poop, as you put it, light up in the dark, especially at those times, when in shear desperation, I need to drop my pants and do it right there and then.
🙂 😦 :(( :”> 😉 😀 :-> 😛 ❤ 😀 😡 D:< =K :s ;P {17}
=) =O 🙂 :^) :] :[ D: 😀
Jack
They call that, ” progress,” ??? There are people staying up very late at night figuring how to sell us their crap….
> haha!! come on baby light my fire!
> lighten up, dude, and so on, but specially the illuminating crap is really so funny!!
> M
There’s a lot of crap out there that needs to be illuminated.. hah
That is nice what you wrote about your friends, Margaret. I can say for myself and I’m sure I speak for the others when I say that the feeling is mutual.
I choose to devote my time and energy to the people important to me and to bettering my life. There are many people who care about me. Almost all the people I know respect me and marvel at how well I’ve coped and moved forward from Noreen’s death. But only a very few know about the primals I’ve been through along the way, and the only people who know how difficult loss is are the ones who’ve had the misfortune to experience it themselves.
There will always be people who don’t see and don’t understand, who seemingly can’t and probably never will. They have little sway or influence over me, the more I accept how my parents never saw me. I feel there is nothing to be gained by arguing with them. They will say what they will, but being on a very different path they will never know or understand mine, and I feel no need to waste my time becoming distraught about it.
I’m touched though by how you want to defend your friends. Thanks Margaret.
Larry, Canada ??? where ?? me, NS; what years were you in LA ?
Saskatchewan, David. In LA 82-84.
Always stick with the ‘group’ and the ‘Faith’…………..never think too much for oneself and always scurry back to the seeming ‘safety’ of doctrine and received wisdom…………….and stick together…………easier that way and no need to think or feel alone ever…………………….for all the TRYING to feel alone………………… ‘want’ to feel alone but don’t actually do it…………………so much of primal is that………….want to but don’t actually……………wish to but don’t do……………..
> ha Phil,
> that is very nice to hear.
> despite the very mediocre cleaning team I feel good too today, at least I did my best to take control of and care for my life, wil do the rest of the cleaning mostly myself again, and ask for a hand with some stuff to a girlfriend.
> it sounds like you and even Larry in Canada have much better weather then we have right now, here it is sometimes a bit sunny, often clouded, and too cool for the late spring season. and will get even cooler and wet tomorrow…
>
> but then again, I like an occasional walk through the rain with an umbrella, smiley..
> M
> yesterday I went to meet a fellow student at her house.
> she is about to finish her bachelor, and has not yet decided what specialisation she’ll take in her masters.
> our statistics teacher brought us in touch, he wrote ‘you are two fine persons, and she has a couple of cats, so you might also enjoy cuddling those while waiting for yours..’
>
> so we got in touch by e-mail first, found a number of things we had in common, and finally yesterday I went over to her house..
>
> of course felt a bit scared to go there, but it turned out really well.
> the cat I saw was gorgeous, and we had a lot to talk about.
> after talking about the courses, I told her an overview of the story of my life, and also talked about Primal Therapy.
> I got slightly emotional two times, once talking about my first primal and what a big impact it had, and how nice it felt to find back my almost lost 4 year old self, and the second time when talking about how touching it can be to be in group and listen to an otherwise succesful person in life, allowing himself to become a distressed young kid again.
> I talked about how I would like to work on adding up my own experiences one day with everything I am learning, and what I might want to expand on, which subjects etc.
> she told me the fields she would like to work in, and told me stuff about herself as well..
> it was a stimulating and inspiring afternoon, and it felt good to have gone there, and to get to know people like her and my teacher, inspiring and smart and nice at the same time.
> come to think of it I find myself more and more able to really enjoy meeting new people, specially when the encounter goes beyond a certain superficial level.
> i was also surprised at how easy it was to talk about myself and all the aspects of my past, even the ones I feel not so proud of or a bit embarassed about. the sum of it all makes it all kind of ok seemingly and it felt amazingly good to present myself in this complete way.
>
> it makes me feel my selfconfidence has grown stronger somehow.
> part of me will always remain somewhat shy, and another part simply loves attention.
>
> sometimes for example with my mother on the phone, not always but often, I find myself almolst reluctant to speak much, as if it takes a lot of effort to just talk and tell her about stuff, it feels like a physical and emotional chore kind of, and then on other occasions, with people I like and trust, or people that simply show interest, I suddenly find myself loving to talk and talk about this and that and the other, that difference keeps amazing me as it is so big and obvious.
>
> that silly side of me should get some more opportunity again to even be boisterous and to make people, including myself, crack up from time to time.
> so well, I should start socializing some more again I guess, it seems about time to invest some energy in that once more..
> M
Margaret, That’s great you took a chance getting together with that student and she turned out to be someone good to talk with. Phil
Margaret wrote
“there is a lot of fine and very functionable people here, with very high moral standards and kind hearts, who keep working on themselves to get better still.
> I am proud to know them”
Sounds like a speech at some club or dinner. Kind of what I would call ‘phony’ and makes me wonder who are the people WITHOUT ‘high moral standards’ or who DON’T ‘work on themselves to get better still’………………….the outsiders the one’s who don’t belong in this little phony make believe club…………………….I think I would PREFER to be outside of that kind of thing…………..
There’s the door; no-ones stopping you from leaving.
Jack
Rather than ‘try’ to feel alone I would rather BE alone…………………some people might call that ‘acting out’ and maybe it is from a certain point of view………………….but I guess i would prefer to be ‘acting out’ so called than simply ‘acting’ as in play acting at being alone. Go on and on about ‘alone feelings’ but always cling to the group, mimic the group think and use their words and go to their retreats and have their birthdays etc. Maybe it’s just a different way of dealing with a wound that refuses to heal. Anyway that’s not my way I have my own way……………..
Patrick, If you would rather be alone and not be in a group, why do you keep coming on here? Something must be driving you. Phil
Phil – I have almost finished the book on Luther and it seems to explain something. I feel ‘primal’ had some great promise that is not being fulfilled……………..if I thought it was truly worthless I would leave of course. Even now as i am getting ready to go on the Kruse Cruise I am looking to take a few Janov books with me that I can show them but I don’t actually have any. (If anyone has any to loan I would accept them – I don’t actually want to spend any more money to buy them) So I am not simply someone who sees no value in it but don’t think it is being ‘done’ properly for the most part. Many people have speculated primal will be re-discovered. Maybe it will but I feel it will have to be from a different direction………………..maybe I am trying to find that direction……………
Patrick, You didn’t answer my question. You say you want to be alone and not cling to a group. Yet you seem to want to be a part of this group, maybe also the group on Dr. Kruse’s cruise. Your certainly cling to us here. You have your “own way”, so what is it? Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20085) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
I believe there is merit in your words, Patrick. I respect that.
My interpretation of , “…a Primal World,” was that we’d be getting on quite nicely. I though that ideally we should live in Primal Communities because we wouldn’t want to struggle with all of the fuck up in the real world.
I thought that kindness, understanding and resolve would be features. Maybe just my neurotic needs….
I thought I’d spend my post primal time attending to real needs and responding appropriately to real issues.
But maybe our DNA dictates that humans are supposed to believe in magic like our thousands of years past ancestors, explaining thunder and epilepsy in terms of anger of the gods, or, being possessed with devils, wandering towards the ultimate reward for passing all tests, that beautiful meadow in the sky for the faithful. Maybe we’re supposed to behave like 9 year olds who haven’t progressed past their limited social skills of name calling, creating impenetrable cliches, scratching, hair pulling and fisticuffs.
You have tremendous resilience Patrick.
If you feel so inclined, tell me what is ,”your way.”
You say:- “I feel ‘primal’ had some great promise that is not being fulfilled…………….” then later follow it all up with:-
“So I am not simply someone who sees no value in it, but don’t think it is being ‘done’ properly for the most part. ”
So what the fuck is the PROPER way to do Primal. It seems, I now gather from several of us, that you are forever (and Geeze does it seem to go on and on and on), telling the rest of us, that It’s not being done properly.
Suggestion:- Get in contact with Gretchen, OR Barry B, privately, and tell then how to PROPERLY do Primal. All else, it seems, is YOU claiming to be the only one that knows how.
OR … For fuck’s sake … tell US what is the right way. Your silence on the matter is deafening.
Put another way “we’re all out of step except you?” Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack
> David,
> thanks for replying, it sounds like a very complicated situation, to grow up in, and I know how difficult it is to try and explain some of it as it is so hard to catch things in words, specially by writing.
>
> my own mom used to do that to me to, mess with my mind, and then tell me she was abused as a child, so I have some idea what you talk about when you say she robbed you of your feelings.
>
> it is very hard to unravel the whole tangled up mess of need and anger and pain and frustration and concern and love and guilt and frustration and resentment, and Idon’t know if hate comes into the picture, that word somehow sounds not right, too all encompassing black and white.
>
> how many siblings do you have, and how were they, or are they?
>
> if you feel like writing about them here, I’d understand if you rather not, I feel a bit inhibited about doing so too much about my own brother, as I know he would hate it, and I feel like respecting that.
>
> we grew much closer together again during the last couple of years loking after our mom while she is aging, becoming very forgetful but even more stubborn than she always was..
>
> it is so sad to have to deal with the need and the pain of not getting the love you deserve yourself, while also seeing the need and pain of the one supposed to have given you that love makes it impossible.
> I am in the middle of trying to accept I will never get it, not in the way I’d like to, and accepting that pain helps to see what was and is still good in her, and love that part.
>
> a kind heart is the main thing, all the rest is ‘behaviour’, which of course can be excruciating .
>
> I once described my feelings towards my mom as irritated tenderness or tender irritation.
>
> sometimes it gets to plain irritation and even anger, lately `i have felt more able to express that, but now I am over that stage and into a calmer area of going with the flow and not struggling if possible..
>
> M
I am like looking into a mirror for my sibs. I reached out and they ran. God/religion, alcohol and womanizing are their medicines. Two had the nerve to say they would pray for me, to lead me to their Jesus. Jesus is one neurotic defense I don’t have.
I would simply be recanting a history for the sake of the telling. I have shared some just to describe me. No therapeutic purpose in rehashing the resolved.
I went to Dr. John Raiss in April. He did an overview of my life as well as talking of psyc meds.
We agreed I was using too much caffein, especially in the form of caffein pills. I was taking about 1800mg of caffein a day.
Dr. Raiss said caffein is like opiates ( such as Demeral or Percodan.) Caffein and opiates relieve depression at first but more and more are needed and eventually they stop working.
We made a specific plan for me to cut down and graph my intake. It seems vague goals don’t work well.
I was having a caffein crash most afternoons.
I’m trying to taper my caffein use. Dr. Raiss said using the cold turkey process would take about nine days.
I see I must take care of my medical health. I can’t just take a pill or feel a feeling to override not taking care of my health. I must also watch diet and exercise, and I’ve heard a bad diet puts on weight faster than exercise takes it off.
Beginning Primal comes with a series of dietary recommendations. The only scientific work I have ever encountered on nutrition and health is available in several books for the consumer, by Dr. Peter J D’Adamo. I referred his work to patients who did extremely well. It departs from the one size fits all dietary recommendations. Eat 4 Your Type and Change Your Genetic Destiny are two that are good to start with. The 2nd is a primer in the Science of Epigenetics.
> Bill, is that really you?!?
> the one and only Bill I know??
> in that case so nice to hear you here, great really!!
>
> if it would be another Bill Jones, which I doubt but well, strange things happen, welcome too to the blog, smiley,
> Margaret
How about something from Dad to spice up the atmosphere:
Thanks for,” frightening,” up my day, Larry. Just kidding , appreciate it. This guy can rip my guts apart. That place that is just feelings for me. That big ball of burning whatever in my low gut.
Night before last, went to bed. Should have known,but it’s been years since the last visitation; achy ankles; hyper sexual; the nasal gnawing grunts started. Not enough energy to let that unfold; and, anyway it’s out of sequence. In early days it made me feel I was going to be one of the anointed ones. It can stave off tension for several weeks but does not resolve anything.
This time I tried to fight my way out of the feeling. On the other side of my BR wall is an old man ; i can hear his breathing. If I let this proceed to the wails he’ll freak out. The bones in my face and head start to ache violently. So I forced myself out and sobbed and snotted quietly into a pillow.
I suspect it’s fighting to get born; doing it all myself. Her fighting to stop me.
I think ,
” this place,” has reopened primdora’s box, and I’m back in the little house of horrors. But shit, I survived it all in real time. I’m better armed now. Can’t be fooled anymore. Fuck I’m just whistling walking past the grave yard.
You are a brave man.
I don’t know how it is for you, but for me the dread is worst before the feeling. For me it feels like when I’m finally in it, it’s only because I’m ready, and it’s a relief to finally feel some of it.
The grave yard is full of dead people. I believe they can’t hurt you. 🙂
Exactly. I was figuratively reflecting on my resolve, which may be bull shit, that I am up to braving the pain and the truths that are sometimes revealed, the old adage about pretending to not be afraid. thanks
I think I was only ever in one group, a mixed group, that Vivian co facilitated. I went off on a woman I’d never met, because I felt she was trying to garner sympathy as a manipulative tactic. (Just like my mother.) You know what it’s like when the persons words don’t match their emotional delivery. I know it well because that’s how I am when I’m in my head, spouting bull shit.
Anyway, then I got afraid of reprisal. I curled up in a ball beside Vivian, and that process started; the 1st time. I’m wrong, she moved away and deathly panic set in, I needed to struggle, to get the closeness, I moved closer, she pulled back and then the process began.
Vivian commented at the end of group that she thought what happened was I, “got smaller.” What I heard was, it was insignificant, or that I was lying to get attention. And I never asked what she meant. I still do that. I think I don’t want to appear stupid, and in that case to be told I was full of crap. I often got beatings for pretending the beating was worse than it was. All fucked up shit, man.
Once my mother was chewing out my brother, 7 yr my senior, who had hurt me I was 4. I ran outside and cut a rose thorn switch for my mother to beat him with. I was excited that he was going to finally get a turn. She often sent him for one to switch me. She looked it over said it looked like a good one, said let’s try it out, and told me to drop my pants and then beat me with it, bare arms and legs, for wanting her to hurt my brother.
God! She sounds sadistic.
yep !! When the pain is the worst I have wished that she had succeeded in killing me. Sometimes so down on myself that I say out loud, ” no wonder you wanted to kill me.”, stupid , useless twit I am…
She had lots of history to explain it; mom died when she was 4, her gran at age 6; relinquished to Children’s Aid before 7; ritualistically beaten and raped by the Baptist Minister who served as the agency’s agent who kept her at his boarding house until age 10. Then abused at a series of farm placements.
I met her 70 year old niece a few years ago. Looked like her twin. But Bernice is so kind, so gentle, so wise; I had to stay away for her. It was looking at the mom I missed out on. Too much..
Not too strange I chose social work and labored to clean that mess up.
Now it’s pretty much under total gov’t control again across Canada and a complete mess wherever gov’t is in charge. Loyalty to the minister and fear of job loss keep the social workers in line. The only scandals that ever surfaced in this province involved gov’t owned, hand picked and promoted, social workers.
Like Winnipeg. It makes me sick. Manitoba child services has been a disgrace for all of the years I have been informed. The minister was in tears before the media, distraught even, when the 2nd Indian child was brutally attacked. She, the minister has regained her composure now. It’s back to business as usual. Well I better not get started on my rant about the ongoing genocide of the North American Indian. Mr. Hitler had teachers to follow, the white Europeans wherever they went.
So sad David. Your family’s story is heartbreaking and I marvel at your survival and glad you had the strength and smarts to seek therapy. Thank you for sharing.
It was a combination of witnessing first hand what Primal Therapy can do and desperation, Sylvia; not my strength nor smarts. Also something I call my spontaneous hyper naivete. I reach a fear point where some unknown worst thing that could possibly happen is happening,I just react.
I left therapy when I received word that my wife had abandoned our teenage children. It was a wrong decision. I would die for my children. But it was the wrong decision; taken 10 years after I should have shown her the door and raised the children alone.
Wow David: That is the best ever comment I felt you have made on the blog and was so moving. A tear came to my eyes reading it. So straight, so simple … and so moving.
Not trying to laugh off the hurt. Another David. wow!!!
Jack
Hi
This is a confession.(?)
Some time ago, I watched a documentary about a little monkey who left his tribe and became the leader of an other tribe of monkeys. His mum brought him up mostly in a cave, to protect him from other predators and even from the male leader of that particular tribe. ( I am not sure what is the plural for monkeys).
When time came for him to die, although he was some distance away from his childhood grounds, he travelled back and found the old cave to die in, which he did overnight.
This really stirred me up.
HE WENT HOME TO DIE.
Then came last night. I hardly ever dream, and even if I do, it is more often than not, I am having a conversation or dialogue with someone, or more frequently, I am talking to myself. Who else is there to talk to, hah?
I was deciding in my sleep that it is time to die. I cannot continue my ‘struggle’ to ‘feel better’, ‘happy’. The kids are fine, the grand kids are fine, and Suzi will somehow manage.
The big question is, am I having a premonition that my time has come, after all, whether I like it or not, I’ll be 69 in July, and some of my friends have died already. So it’s not so much just a fantasy.
Or, am I trying to give up my ‘primal struggle’, knowing that I could face death, or shall I say, faced death, way back then, at the beginning of my life.
I don’t have the answer. I presume as my defences crumble, the answer will come, slowly, agonisingly, in time. What really bugs the shit out of me is that I do not remember EVER being ‘happy’.Whatever that means.
Do any of you have similar experiences? Do any of you think of death?
Will I die alone? As I felt ‘alone’ ALL my life.
Forgive me. I am lamenting again. But I am HURTING. It never stops. Forgive me.
In my dream I was ‘seriously’ thinking perhaps i should consider going back to Transylvania to die.
But where? To whom? I don’t recall a cave. Why am I hurting all the time? Why is the pain relentless?
Is the only ‘summer’ in my life when I come to a retreat? Do I have to wait all year around for ‘my summer? Before i come back to my eternal winter?
( A bit dramatic here. Please forgive me.)
Tom
Don’t know. Should I post this?
I think dreams can be just dreams. My only thoughts about my death is on days I wish the struggle would end. I wake and sometimes am furious, sometimes in tears, that I’m still stuck here, still alive. On those days I find the positive in getting older, less time left.
Maybe tomorrow some passion will return.
Hi Tom, That all sounds so heavy. I’m sorry you are going through all of this I hope you can get to the bottom of it. I haven’t had anything similar. At the retreats you’ve seemed to me quite healthy and vigorous even while dealing with big feelings. Phil
“Do any of you have similar experiences? Do any of you think of death?” Yes Tom; a great deal of the time. At 82 I’m a little closer to “deaths door” than you. The only problem I have about my demise is first the conceited one “How will the world survive without me?” The second one is:- will my Jimbo, if he survives me, be ok?
My brother’s death has gotten me thinking more and more about it. He’s now totally free, as I view it. I’m the one with all the problems of survival and what and where to go next and the desperate hope that I don’t die slowly and painfully … in-spite of it having it been wished upon me. The only home I know is ‘planet earth’ and that is where I suspect I will die. Death isn’t the problem … it’s the process of dying that is.
“Don’t know. Should I post this?” Absolutely and unequivocally YES. It matters little what your dream means. According to Janov ones dreams are a symbol invoked buy a feeling. If you know the feeling; my take, that is all that matters.
Jack
It’s good you posted, Tom. I think about some people who write here, who had really horrible childhoods that permeate and drain the vitality out of their life in the present, who have a lot of work to go through a lot of horrible feelings and it’s so unfair to them. All I can say from my experience is that having something good in the present, at least sometime, helps make life worthwhile. It feels to me like those old feelings that are so hard for you to sink into are rotting and draining the life out of you.
When I look back over my life, there were several junctures when against all odds I naively/stupidly risked my neck and stuck out in a direction I wanted to go, feeling this will make or break me, and I was so lucky doors opened at critical times and people came out of the woodwork from nowhere and supported me along my way, got me into meaningful work, to primal therapy, and to love for the first and only time in my life. Many times things could have gone differently, wrongly and my life ruined. I feel lucky there were positives in life that helped me through my primal pain.
Now it’s almost all over. My job will be over soon when I retire, Noreen is gone, and I have no purpose or sense of where to go with my life. I’m lost. I don’t know how to make life work for me anymore. I’m having a hard time feeling how to make it worthwhile. Sometimes I feel I haven’t sunk into all of the horribleness of death and loss, and it’s ugliness is tainting any joy that I once had for life. Aloneness is also sapping vitality out of life. Childhood emptiness is always so close now, making it hard to go forward and find meaning and joy.
It seems I will still have to do what worked when I was younger, namely find within myself a direction that will give me meaning, stick my neck out and risk losing it, go forward and hope.
But I’m scared and lost, getting older and running out of what makes me feel alive.
………………(channeling Jack)………….I ‘grade’ my boys I like to give them mostly an “A” (tears stream down my face) of a “B” like here ‘a tear came to my eye’……………I live for ‘tears’ even if I can just squeak one out it makes me feel I am actually alive otherwise not so much………………so I work at that and God Bless Us sometimes tears do really stream down my face. I am in glory then nothing to do with ‘feeling pain’ I feel wonderful I know I am fulfilling Janov’s gospel I am alive and my tears celebrate that.
The above story gets at least a “B+” because well it fulfills the requirements of a good primal story a bit of cruelty etc but what makes it so special for me is to see a therapist and even better a JANOV in all her glory being the great therapist I believe her to be. Those 2 factors scored big with me and then the fact a tear came to my eye (I think) well that’s really an “A” then
I don’t want to give the impression I ONLY hand out a or b’s. There is one student an Irish ruffian who challenges me when he first came on here he gave some glimpses of what my ACTUAL life was like. I will NEVER forgive him for that that is un-pardonable and he must be punished and if possible humiliated FOREVER. Primal values so called be damned someone does not challenge me in my class room and get away with it. I never tire of flogging that Irish boy I would bugger him too but I don’t find him cute……………but the worst thing about him is he does not give me total respect and control in my OWN classroom. That’s what I look for in new boys and this David seemed at first a bit of a loose cannon but I think by praising him and letting him know how to be what is approved and what is not I will be able to maintain an orderly classroom where I am in charge. Soon he should know what is ‘expected’ here………….
Sometimes I wish the Irish ruffian would disappear but in a way I like him being here. I get off on ‘flogging’ him flogging is almost as good as buggering and it gives me a chance to show my chops in that regard. Keeps me in practice and shows to others what I am capable of is someone ‘disrespects’ me……………plus I have nothing else to do no hobbies at all and I ‘get off’ on abusing him. At least I can still ‘get off’ and if I can manage a tear let alone have them ‘stream down my face’ I am in Primal Heaven and praise be to the Janov’s (both of them)……………
Patrick, then I shall surely be handed a F-. One politician wrote of me, to my supervisor”…. bypass the stocks and take the prick straight to execution. Show him the door. He can’t be taught to behave.” Well, I was 40 years walking out that door.
I was pissed when I first arrived here and told by a contributor that I was pronounced welcome here. That was after after I toned down down a bit, thought maybe I had over reacted. I thought how fucking arrogant. There’s a story about my maternal Irish grandpa, an 1862 famine boat child, throwing a mate out for insulting him in his own house. He didn’t bother opening the door first.
I don’t usually dabble in gratuitous flaying, but like you I do not tolerate that being done to me either. The care taker part of me, more and more less frequently still wants to reach out when someone hurts. I suppose that vulnerable child part of me is looking for something here, Larry calls it the , ” IT,” maybe; or maybe it’s trying to feel that old hope, my last hope when I traveled 5000 miles to LA; Maybe I was looking for self help clues I often found in the old Primal News Letter to help Primaling on my own.. I don’t have a fucking clue, truth be told; but the man is not looking for anything here. And as I did with several , ” friends, ” recently, I can walk out the door when I choose, nothing lost, but maybe hope. And maybe neurotic hope is best abandoned anyhow.
I respect that you.don’t suffer gladly. I did hear you reach out. I cannot imagine anything short of one of you having kept with the early christian practice of cannibalizing your neighbor’s baby that would explain the apparent ongoing ,”public-cized,” impass.
Well, who am I to judge ??? I really haven’t forgiven my brother for fucking my wife. That may seem unchristian of me. But he had to drive 120 miles each time, so they can’t cop, ” It just happened..”…..I’ll likely burn in their imaginary hell because he’s dead and I don’t like him any better just because he died. Ah, what the fuck spew it all out, and he buggered me when I was a toddler. But he died a Deacon of his church, exalted by the high priest for loving his jesus. He had fucked most of the female mourners, and they all bawled in his memory at his wife’s side, so it must have been christianly all right.
Goog night, Sir Patrick
I never thought when I first read your reply that you might be referencing my related experience. On second read…??? Now I’m not accusing, just asking, were you pissing on me ?
I know Primal Therapy works. I saw it in our , “mock, ” clinic. I saw shit that would freak people out of their wigs. And when that shit got released I saw very sick people become well and then get on with their lives. No idol worship nor pack infighting.
No David I was not ‘pissing on you’. Not at all. I can see why you might think so it was ONLY my attempt to ‘poke’ back a bit at the poker. I’m a poker, I’m a smoker, I’m a mid-night toker lol………………..
Also interesting David you saw things that impressed you and were real at a ‘mock clinic’…………….me too MORE so than anything I saw at the ‘real thing’. How strange life can be. “Real” and “mock” it turns it was mostly ‘marketing’ convince them something is scarce, convince them nobody else can provide it, patent it, dress it up as unique “A diamond is forever” and THEN charge a lot of money for it Corner the market then for the future, discourage and deny anyone else’s contribution and you should be right as rain for a long time at least. A nasty plan.,
“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
―Robert A. Heinlein
sounds rather actualized to me, Patrick. That’s healthy, I think… cheers
I feel strongly that there needs to be a counter response to the one proffered in this comment of Patrick’s. Not about me or who or what he deems I am. There may be some truth in that.. What, I feel the need to counter is just why (as I read him) Janov decided to withhold the practice of Primal Therapy from those already trained in the Freudian tradition. It was, as I perceived it, an act of INTEGRITY. Perhaps best described as an ‘integration’ of both parts of the brain:- ie the feeling brain and the thinking brain. A completely NEW notion/concept at the time.
In, somewhat, a defense of those wanting and hoping to jump on the bandwagon of Janov’s discovery; were two factors as I saw it. The first was an ego one, of believing that their psychology degree was a passport to enhancing their ability to make a living … in light of the discovery. The other was in believing that if Janov himself was able to start from scratch … why could they NOT do likewise. I have no idea what took place with both Art and Vivian in the developing of his special therapy (Primal Therapy); but he did write, he needed input from his children “TO KEEP ME (him) STRAIGHT” and his wife, and perhaps also input from patients that had, had re-living experiences, namely Danny and Gary. So he did have, as I read it, more than just his own musings. Another factor was (again … just my assessment):- The ability from merely reading … as I feel Patrick is the prize master … at MISSING the essential ingredient. A factor, many of us humans attempt to asses about many NEW NOTIONS … all down time.
I do also feel that most that read “The Primal Scream” intuitively and subliminally recognized the INTEGRITY of that book. How else could it have become a ‘best seller’ in the way it did. It touched thousands … maybe even millions … and continues to do so … seemingly. One last point:- There is a blog, “The Primal Support Group”, moderated by one of our own, Phil, that for the most part is composed of people ‘self primaling’; many of whom have had no formal (Primal) therapy. I am not aware that Art Janov’s Center nor the Primal Institute is suing them. So much for the alleged; ‘keeping it under wraps’.
Jack
I am unmovable in my absolute belief in Primal Therapy. I have close friends with years of primal clinic contact who are not.
The argument for not promoting Primal to the world does not convince me. Banting might have kept insulin under wraps; and all of those other examples. It sounds simply defensive , Jack, presented in those terms. I think I am as protective of Janov, Vivian,Barry and Gretchen as anyone.
Janov was a joyous Social Worker – Psychologist who had discovered the Holy Grail, not a clinical writer.
We were at war defending Primal/Janov against conventional psychiatry, psychology. Many believed they were well founded in their skepticism. A lot of it was turf war and Big Pharma wasn’t too excited about the prospect of losing drug profits from life long guinea pigs. AA was at war with us for suggesting people could become happily non alcohol dependent without substituting dependence to their god.
And in every book was the disclaimer warning people the therapy was only available at the Institute. So we fought two wars, defending Janov/Primal, and the intent and competence of our centres. We advised every applicant to apply to the Institute first.
For the sake of the therapy it is indefensible that at some point it was not released to the world with their blessing. BIG Pharma won and mental health remains victimized, a pandemic of needless suffering.
How many new patients start therapy in LA annually, 85 – 200. max 8 – 10 thousand over the lifespan of the 2 primal clinics. Where will it be in 20 years?
There was a network developing across Canada in the 70’s; two Primal Centers in Nova Scotia, under the direction of a competent decent guy, who began Primaling 2 years before taking the first patient. At first it was the wreckage Mental Health had damaged and deserted. The recession hit and a feature of new Primal Patients is that we all want to be looked after, for free, patients were lousy at paying after intensive, $ 300.00,X 3 wk for 24 hr availability, open limit sessions,.and we were lousy at setting limits and collecting fees. Some patients thought if those results were so easily available, the therapy so simple,, no drugs, no smart therapists, ( Art discouraged utilizing transference,) that the therapy wasn’t worth the fees, $ 10.00 group, $15.00, individual. After all they’d been fucked around zombies for years in conventional psychiatry, and boom, they were functioning and happier by a therapy their neighbor could have provided.
I cant imagine what the operating costs must be in LA. I doubt if any of those folks are loaning money to Donnie Trump. I do not question their integrity for a moment. I wish I had been born to such kind people.
David: I gather that you are still in process of reading my book “Feeling Therapy ………” Whereby I too feel that there is a posibility of getting into ones feeling on ones own; as many on The Primal Support Group seem to exemplify. Where I felt and still feel there is a need to be extremetly careful is in the patient/therapist relationship.
Anyone feeling the need to go to a therapist I feel is someone that either is not aware that it could be achieved on ones own, OR that they wish to get help as do-it-yourself modus, is not convenient; even if they are aware of being able to do it oneself. I learned most of this by extensive buddying, seeing that the buddy often seemingly wanted to take me in their direction, OR that in my sitting for the other, I wanted to give what I considered a “helping hand”.
Desiring to help does not necissarily mean having the ability to REALLY help … especially since this therapy is taking us somewhere that most of us never vedtured before.
What I mean by being careful is that any ex neurotic carries with them, remnants of that neurosis and, hense the danger of pushing the patients in their direction, or at speeds the patient is not ready for. According to Janov, and I give him the benefit of the doubt, that proclivity is prevelant until such times as an intesive internshnip. Since I have not undergone any orientation let alone training, I can’t say that I have any definitive knowledge. Merely intuition (which may not be enough).
The only other notion/idea that I have had was that in the event of “abolishing money and all forms of exchange” there would ensue a simplicity, starting from the notion that would each learn by instinct, to ONLY bring a child into existence when there was that instictive desire from a man and a woman desiring such. I believe very strongly, that such a situation would bring about loving the child for it’s own sake, and that very practice would occur rapidly. However that’s just my notion and apparently is a notion NOT shared by many others.
Jack
Yep, every child a wanted child, and even more difficult to achieve, born to parents capable and suitable to meet a child’s needs.
Buddy’s shouldn’t, I believe, ever, try to be a therapist. I mainly called a buddy to stave off excessive fear. As a buddy I was mute, unless asked for input. I have always avoided giving advice.
There was a time when Arthur knew nothing about how to do the therapy. His gained experience could have provided immeasurable assistance to decent, competent people who genuinely wanted to promote the therapy. At some time he had garnered enough experience to formulate a practice procedure.
If. Dr. Christian Bernard had kept his knowledge to himself cardiac surgery might have suffered.
I am cognizant of all of the caveats. There would have been some charlatans, There would have been properly motivated trainees that would have failed the cull. I’m sure both Arthur and the Institute have failed some trainees and expelled therapists for breaking rules. I admire their high standards.
But we’d still be in our caves picking our teeth with a bird tendon if knowledge was not set free and nurtured..
It will be sad if my grandchildren come across an obscure historical note about Primal, a footnote about a failed ill conceived notion, a dead cult.
That’s how Wiki paints Primal now. In no small part a continuing effort of the real Quacks fronted by chief QUACK, psychiatrist( by certificate only) Stephen Barrett at QUACKBUSTERS.
David for some reason the singer in this song seems like you a bit. Plus was there ever a better pop song so an excuse to play it
love the tunes; Just listened to Tom Waits, Take Me Home….on youtube; so short, so on..
I went/fled to London in the bitter cold Winter of 1973 to do primal therapy and found it could only be had in LA. It was the pits of winter the winter of the “Miner’s Strike” 3 day week, we kept light and heat on the apt by putting a 10p bit just to keep it going…………..often it just went out anyone one morning it is SO cold I don’t want to come out from under the bed clothes and this song comes on…………………don’t know who it is or what but I thought yeah aside from primal therapy I GOTTA go to California, this way of life seems THE way of life I want
Then I heard this, funny now I feel it is time to leave here…………..is that rumbling I hear a 10 Earthquake………………..bringing down the 10……….
Below is from this writer Jon Rappoport who I like quite a bit. I think a lot of this can be applied to ‘primal’…………..
Limited concepts of space, time, energy, the mind, cause-and-effect—these, too, are “given” to human beings as the be-all and end-all of a story. A story that ultimately short-circuits and short-changes what the individual is really capable of.
The entire mural of imposed Reality is aimed at radically diminishing the individual’s power.
People are consciously or unconsciously fixated on boundaries and systems. They are hoping for whatever can be delivered through a system.
That is a form of mind control.
But here we are dealing with The New. Old notions of cause and effect don’t apply. The past doesn’t determine the present. The way a religion or a science paints a cosmology is irrelevant.
Freedom isn’t a system.
But freedom needs creative power, otherwise it just sits there and becomes a lonely statue gathering dust in an abandoned park.
At one time or another, every human being who has ever lived on this planet has abandoned his creative power. The question is: does he want to get it back?
It never really goes away. It is always there. It is the basis of a life that can be lived. A life that can be chosen. People instead choose roles that don’t require that power. They think this is a winning strategy.
It isn’t.
Just another “head tripper” that seemingly isn’t aware that, that is what he is doing.
Jack
The Sitar adds a hopeless attitude , I was going to say, doesn’t it, but, I’ve always thought. Great Jimmy guitar. A lot of speculation when it was released that Joni Mitchel was the mystery girl. Poor Joni all used up by the fucking cigarettes. Never got off on her voice but she is legendary for her guitar innovations.
Hope, ” home,” is still home, Patrick.
Extinction Level Event. Why do i get sad every time in that comet movie when Tea Leoni finds this info on the internet. Well it is ELE for elefant man most likely. anyway…..
ok, now i get it. good cinematography and music, good shots good cutting, tension, sadness, finality of death on this one scene.
staring death in the face
every day, until not…
hey another good scene. opening scene mother and baby crying m night shymalan UNBREAKABLE. if you like baby crying and pain being emoted. on a primal primeval level. netflix.not sure if there will be ajny sex scenes. not sure if i care too much about that anymore
> I called my mom just now, to let her know me and my brother would come by this afternoon.
>
> she asked me how I was and I told her about my cold and a bad headache.
> she was very sweet really, told me I should stay home if I felt too bad, or else she would already turn the heating on in her bedroom so I could rest there and be warm and comfortable, and I could leave the door open so I could still listen to the conversation if I wanted to..
>
> she also asked about the kitten, and when I said I’d go and visit the kittens next week, but I’d have to wait some more weeks, again she was very sweet, when she said ‘it must be hard’, she sounded so real and kind, I almost started crying, and still could do so now I guess..
>
> moments like this bring me back in touch with the mother I love, the mother that provides care and compassion, other than the meedy mother who wants endless attention..
>
> she really touched me this time, maybe I will just go and let myself be pampered a little, will see..
> M
Otto:
I remember seeing the film Deep Impact way back in the late 90’s when it was on the big screen. There’s no doubt the movie had some intense teary-eyed moments. Remember the suicide mission those astronauts were suddenly forced to pursue, and they had one last chance to talk to their families as they flew deep into the comet? Gets me every time! Morgan Freeman was an excellent President in the film, serving as a patrician protector of all the country’s scared citizen children as the deadly comet came bearing down upon the world.
Aside from all the teary moments, the movie did have its slow spells and I was taken aback by all the (almost comical) double entendres.
Double entendres such as…
.The movie had a Deep Impact on the emotional psyche for a lot of people (is that why the title was named as such?)
Tea Leoni played ‘Jenny Lerner’. She definitely “LEARNED” a lot, from being a carefree news reporter whimsically exploring an adulterous affair at the outset to being on the cusp of an event that would end the entire world. She traversed and reported on the worst of humanity as the world’s situation worsened, and she had to explore how her own father abandoned her…..so she “LEARNED” a lot (get it?)….”LEARNER”
The comet was named “Wolf-Biederman”. A comet that’s about to kill the whole world can be considered a “WOLF” at the door, right?
Even the Secretary of Defense packing those “ENSURE” drinks to go far away with his family to “ENSURE” his survival in the coming apocalypse was not lost upon me.
Perhaps this movie is a lesson that amusing double entendres can be gleaned from the worst emotional dramas at times (for whatever reason that may be).
” ENSURE,” death and cellular decay in a box…… talk about mind control…
I don’t understand what you mean. I don’t use the product, but by all accounts Ensure is an innocuous and non-controversial item (?). As I said before, it just seemed that the movie had an abnormally high number of inadvertently amusing double entendres within the theme of darkness and doom.
A combination of my inane sense of humor and my genuine concern. , ” Innocuous and non controversial,” we move in different circles Sir Guru. A friend, and former MD colleague, a neurology specialist turned oncology expert, with a Phd in Nutrition says ,” ENSURE,” and the like guarantee our chances of developing fatal cancers and dementia’s. Made from cheap man made sugars and a vitamin mineral analysis that can be obtained from a lump of coal and a piece of boot leather. Cancers love sugar, especially the man made pre digested ones like high fructose corn syrup aka glucose-fructose.
There are lots of healthy Organic products on the market, real food. I see ENSURE for INFANTS and ENSURE FOR KIDS on the shelves. Gotta capture them early and raise . em up right…
cheers…
Hi David. Think I would have to have a comet chasing me before I drank Ensure. The last time had bad low blood sugar from it. Yet carrot, apple, and celery from a juicer is no problem. Guru, nice to read you here.
Jack and Dave, seems like Janov is more giving about the therapy, having their website to view and videos to partake of. It’s been helpful to me and I would guess others. At one time the only info to be had was ‘newsletters’ and ‘journals’. I think he ‘s reaching out to the other therapies with the training videos making more available now.
I wasn’t aware of those or the support group site. How are they accessed / Thanks
Hi, David. On the web type in: The Janov Primal Center. Don’t know about the primal support group, though get email from their blog. Think Phil knows address or maybe you can find on web (under primal support group ?) lucky 13 for U Guru. S
I’ve been a card-carrying member of Yahoo PSG since around 2003-2004 when Pat T. from South Africa administered the group. I introduced Jack to the group a few years ago.
Hrm…oh well…live and learn!
I have a nephew in law that is a card carrying Republican. Is that the same thing?
I don’t remember you introducing me to that blog, but then that is perhaps a factor of pending dementia.
We can’t all be superstars … let alone Ultimate Gurus 😦 😦 .
Jack
I’ve visited Arthur’s site, ( my Dream Team,) but never noticed the training videos. I felt a boulder of disappointment and fear in the pit of my stomach when I got to LA , signed in, and then learned Dr. Janov was no longer associated. Divorced, ran off with some young thang ??? Oh no. I’ve been deceived,, no help here, I’m finished, the sky is falling…..
I pondered….twelve different responses here (some lengthy and some brief) that never saw the light of a “Post Comment” button…This was number thirteen and it survived. Bye!
does one of us get a prize ??? cheers
WordPress has a habit of causing the e-mailed comment and it’s “leave a response button” to disappear. such that if one subsequently wants to respond then the only way is to go into the blog: find that comment and then hit the “reply” button. What seemingly then ensues is that the comment does not show “in response to …” Assuming that a Guru did not already know that 🙂 .
No, Jack…that’s not what I meant. I typed in a dozen responses to David and considered the potential complications that could arise. None passed the test, and thus I chose not to press “Post Comment”. I highlight each message, hit “delete”, and try a new message. Number 13 was bland enough to pass muster without being mired in an unprofitable quicksand without any personal rewards.
Just for the record: I did not get an email to this response of yours … but being already on the blog saw your response so hit the “reply” button.
Dunno if this helps, but I find writing replies easier to deal with if I write them in ‘wordpad’ first then copy and paste. Sometime for reasons beyond me; the whole email does a disappearing act and though sometimes miraculously returns; many time doesn’t.
I suspect old age is setting in … with all it’s irritants. I’ve done my utmost to reverse the process … but with little or no success.
Any ideas Gretchen :O .
Interpretation; ” Now what can I say to this guy that won’t solicit 1 1/2 hours of boring reply…??? hah. I know that guy… cheers
I realize everybody has their own concerns and interests, and I will try not to bore anybody here…
Yet, I took a quick glance at the news today and read about Beau Biden dying at 46 of brain cancer. This is Vice-President Joe Biden’s son.
This news is a bit worrisome to me because Beau’s mother was killed in an auto crash when he was two years old…almost exactly like my past. Did Beau’s brain cancer come about in his 40’s as a result of repression from his own childhood? What’s in store for me here? It also appears Beau had a stroke some years ago, as well. There were no obvious symptoms (perhaps transient ischemic, not sure).
Ouch.
Guru – I just read that right now also. My first thought was how much did he use a cell phone? Which side of his head if it was on one side was it and did that correspond to cell phone use? I guess we all have our own fears but very sad for him and his family
Patrick: That’s a super-detailed question which would be almost impossible for the general public to know. Just to begin any conversation on it, either the Biden family or Beau’s doctors would have to deem cell phone usage to be a factor in the first place.
Not saying it’s a bad question, but probably impossible to discover the answer without knowing the right people.
Guru – I take your point there but to me it is an interesting question. I spoke about this before but I have a similar reaction when someone goes ‘off’ like in a school shooting or the guy who brought down the plane in France in that case I am usually curious about what kind of psych meds they were on. Usually the answers to all of these questions are “Yes” but as you say hard to get the specific information. The thing is any of these situations have huge potential to ‘educate’ the general population and for that very reason are generally totally avoided in the media. LIke now if somehow it was to come out that Biden was a heavy cell phone user and even tied it to the specific part of the brain it could really ‘educate’ people. But I am not holding my breath on that one.
I had spoken with Gretchen in the past about my fears of having a brain aneurysm; she would reassure me that nothing will happen. I have taken her at her word on this and I can only hope she is right. I suppose if she had told me things will not be alright and my brain will explode, it wouldn’t have helped matters, anyway.
I get scared with health issues too (getting older does not help either). Some things are just genetic too. VP Joe senior had a near fatal aneurysm too when he was 46 and recovered after 2 surgeries. But yes, poor family, unexpected.
Sylvia: That is a good point about the genetics. I didn’t consider that, thanks. Wouldn’t it be nice to grow younger? I wouldn’t mind living forever as long as it wasn’t a completely agonizing experience every minute of the day.
Biden’s similar childhood drama with my own did raise alarm bells for me considering all the things Janov has talked about over the decades, etc.
I finally found something on netflix that is not depressing and also moves me. BB, you told me last year, but i must have forgotten. House is in the house. Old dog is on my lap. Other stuff is shit or it isn’t but escape works for me tonite.
All these wars, human trafficking, and refugees trying to find something better and no one wanting them and drowning when their overloaded boats capsize on the oceans, is really getting to me tonight.
you are capable of empathy; I have sometimes watched the picture through a child’s eye, horrible
My kid talks to her and not much to me. Only because i am walled off. He will get phd in a year and then what will he do. the big unknown. i have too many fears. like the 2nd house episode, you hate to see your kid in pain. in my case, i caused a lot of his pain. shit.
Everyone must be at, ” church,” ???
Patrick, waiting for the next episode of, ” Trucking, the Primal Way….”
Apparently there are 37 million churches in the world (not including mosques, synagogues, etc.). How are you, me, and Art going to straighten these people out, David? Are you ready to work some overtime?
I cowardly lived as a closet non mystic believer for years, having kicked that opiate at age 12. A few years back a card carrying christian boyhood, ” friend,” confronted me on the issue in a public place. I, ” came out,” with an unequivocal no I don’t believe, in gods, in jesuses, in religions. He then set out to save me and I finally had to remove that irritant by expressing my views. He gives me a wide berth now.
It was so empowering to say who I am. How anyone of normal intellect could believe that shit is beyond me. Anyone who does, fine, but I don’t want to hear about it.
I finally told that to a clergywoman, Phd Theology, friend of former, or pretend friend, whatever those people are called; when she expressed her quandary, how such a kind, loving, person like me could be a non believer….
I think we’d have better luck popularizing , ” belly button cheese,” both unpalatable thoughts to me… hah
David et all. More and more people are finding that temples churches and synagogues are becoming redundant. Just a few, like my father when he was nearing his end, decided that he might after all be a believer … JUST in case …… Now most in the western world are seeing the unutterable stupidity of even contemplating these fairy stories. Give the Muslims a little more time and they’ll come to the same conclusion.
But then after that, we have to see the utter futility of “Culture” Cos that’s another fairy tale. We are first and foremost just humans … and all the subdivisions are becoming irrelevant with the ever diminishing size of the planet, due to fast travel. Next, national boundaries, mere limitations on who are able to travel, settle and breed. Inevitably: after that, the stupidity of needing to be governed, cos the governors are just as fucked as the rest of us are. All that is then needed is:- to burn the law books: just another restriction on freedom. Guess what; from henceforth the need for control (ostensibly the others) will evaporate, and the we can burn all currencies (means of exchange).
All this assuming that some bunch of clowns (feeling privileged) don’t try to kill off the rest of us, and as a consequence of “unintended consequences” kill themselves off also. Highly likely, especially for those that fail to see the simplicity of Primal Theory.
Jack
Jack,I don’t think it’s true what you say here. Most people in the westernworld belong to the established christian denominations. Becoming morecommon are people who are “spiritual’, but don’t belong to any church.Children are indoctrinated at a young age in religion and that’s why itbecomes a core belief. It didn’t happen in my case for some reason.My family was very half hearted about religion and going to church andthat might be why.Phil
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 20:46:11 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
All I get to see about Amarakah these days is via TV. It appears that Christianity and other fundamentalist ideologies is alive and thriving among the politicians, whites who kill non whites for sport, and the non white victim populations. It’s been that way since between 9 million and 3o million Americas Indians began to be the target for genocide. If only they had sunk those early ships. Man they had whitey outnumbered. But, oh, no, they had to be kind and hospitable….
I attend ceremonies for survivors of the government established Christian Residential Schools, where kids were, shorn, branded, tortured, sexually abused, by clergy and nuns, medically experimented on, an estimated 30% murdered, and they open or insert somewhere a prayer to the christian god, and some thank jesus for sparing them. I get physically ill, and furious. They wrote the handbook for training camp for Hitler and his ilk.
Doesn’t it ever cross minds to ask why in the fuck their god allowed it to happen if he’s so all fucking loving and powerful ?? That’s called complicity. No fucking common sense. How long have modern humans traipsed this planet, 100, 000 years ??
Dashes my hope for human kind Jack.
The US Constitution preamble sounds like the founders were non believers, a country not to be founded on religion or christian precepts.
Phil: It’s my feeling that what is traspiring is that we are doing something that has been happening to Judaism and that is hanging onto the cultural aspects whilst finding the religeious aspect somewhat “off key” but keeping it under wraps “Just in case ….” by using the word spiritual (without, I contend, defining “it”) It helped me greatly when I was able to substitute “spiritual” with “feeling-full” then the whole ‘pack of cards’ got some ligtitamcy. However, in the long run it’s all about WORDS and that stringing together of those bits (words) to make what we hope is understanding … but then actually failing in that endeavor to understand. Hence WAR.
Just in order to make my point (or ego as the case may be) I wrote in my first book a whole chapter namely:- “The Nature of Thinking”. According to Benjamin Lee Warf we “Think in Language”. If that is so, the implications are enormous.
Jack
Jack,You may be right but it’s a slow process and can easily be reversed in the form of religiousrevivals. I wonder how you make these conclusions. If you were to visit many very conservativeareas of the country you might think otherwise. At it’s core I think religion has it’s basis in feelings , and people don’t just give those up. News stories keep popping up about southern states andthe teaching of evolution. They want little emphasis on evolution and creationism given equalstatus in science classes. We don’t need to worry about global warming, a new world will be created.No need to worry about animal species becoming extinct, for the same reason.So I wonder about things changing.Phil
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:24:02 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil;: I am aware of the slow movement of change that takes place in us as individuals, but the young have, and will always rebel. That rebellion is gaining ground and the young are a little more skeptical of the status quo than ever before, and sort of making themselves heard.
It may be seen, especially in our Primal community, that Janov’s influence took a turn to slowing down, but as I see it; and strongly feel it, the stage was set. And the clock cannot be turned back. Patrick aside, he’s unwittingly a part of the past, and hanging onto very conservative view points. But, as I see it, that form of conservatism, seeing it all through THINKING is beginning to fail. It is the likes of me, you and the rest of the blog, the Primal Support Group and others, is keeping the flame burning. Though it might in contemporary terms seem insignificant, it will eventually burst forth. That has been the manner in which all of our human endeavors have taken shape throughout our known history. One only needs to look at ordinary human concepts at the time of Copernicus … not that long ago.
I’ve just been watching a program on PBS about the slow growth of the “Climate Change Movement” It’s accelerating at a rate we could not imagine only just a decade ago. Will it happen soon enough. I nor anyone else really knows, but if not … nature will out. The planet (ostensibly) will continue and perhaps, who knows, a NEW cycle of evolving could/might take place. Nothing stands still; least of all the universe.
Religion, as I see it, was the forerunner of psychology and yes; it is based on subliminal feelings. But, as is now viewed by many, misplaced expressions of those feelings. It survives through indoctrination via fear.
Jack
We are talking about kids and, ” young adults,” , the hope for tomorrow’s revolution, who sit in the same room , elbow to elbow texting each other about reality TV and video games ???
That’s a big hyme, I mean, amen, to that, Jack…. Without exception, my kids and grandkids around age 4 challenged the notion and expressed their anger over people being told where they could live on this planet.
It seems from there on we descend into a downward spiral of diminished common sense.
David,I was at the atheist temple this afternoon. Just kidding, actually the gym.There was an atheist temple planned for London: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/25/atheists-temple_n_1231848.htmlI can’t find more recent references to it so it probably was never built.Maybe primal centers would make better temples of atheism.Phil
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:49:50 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
That would be a bit like AA for non drunks, right ?? Whenever 2 or meet in my name……they must be members of the buffalo hunters association….
Shit gotta get off my ass and go to the gym. Not sure I’ll go in and exercise, on e good step at a time….
Yeah, I could be lured into a Primal Temple….
David – I haven’t forgotten……………just takes a while.
Hey !! OK ???
I am really overwhelmed in a weird way. My whole body is in a lot of pain where it’s hard for me to do ANYTHING.
I know EXACTLY what to do. I am not lost here. I know all the steps I need to do yet I can’t carry them out. EVERYTHING feels painful right now. I go to bed so overwhelmed I don’t want to get back up.
I read Larry’s post about being lost and it feels like something I experienced a long time ago. My brain is clear on many things with an angry determination, yet my body has “given up”.
I wish I had a half-dozen administrative paperwork servants and computer programmers carry out my brain’s orders. That’s all I would need for 2-3 weeks and I’d be good to go.
I try to let the pain course through my body as much as possible. Let it run its course through me like a poison. Pain with no insight is not only no fun, but brings up questions as to whether I am being masochistic. I don’t know. I just don’t like it at all when it’s hard for me to do ANYTHING. Even the most trivial task is carrying a great weight for me at the moment.
Guru – my first though is ‘adrenal fatigue’ or maybe ‘chronic fatigue syndrome’……………not to be flip or dismissive………………..but that’s what I like so much for myself the COMBINATION of the knowledge and wisdom of Dr Kruse AND Dr Janov. Jack pay attention I give YOUR ‘guru’ his props too………………but NOT as some kind of be-all end-all ‘solution’. Anyway for me it feels like the difference of having one oar or 2 oars in the water……………..if you have one oar (which I feel too much ‘reliance’ on primal amounts to)……………..you go in circles. With 2 oars you have a chance to move out of the shallow you might find yourself in…………my ‘objection’ to Janov always comes down to or back to this point by making it ‘exclusive’ to him and his ‘ideas’ it has in PRACTICE whatever about the wonderful ‘theory’ led to a lot of people working very hard with one oar in the water. I know this will be probably considered more ‘in-sensitivity’ from me but I see Tom’s sincere ‘reports’ in that way……………….I see Otto as having one oar planted firmly in the water and many more too in different degrees and ways……………..as I say said before maybe Jack IS some exception to the rule he is a very ‘smart’ and ‘unusual’ guy but even if he is (which I have my doubts but whatever who knows) I don’t think holding up some ‘freak’ of nature as a rule for some kind of therapy that would work for the ‘average’ person is a sound idea. Count me as someone who is ‘average’ in many ways it did NOT ‘work’ for me………………I do believe I have found now something well let’s just say works a lot better so that’s why I can be and am a pain in the ass about it. I would honestly ask people here how many feel they are rowing with one oar in the water. I know I did for many years and it is no fun, it’s tiring and the scenery gets VERY boring…………..sorry Guru I kind of went on a tangent there (2 oars in the water can move me in ‘strange’ directions sometimes) but hopefully this means something to you. And Jack before you get your panties all in a twist the 2 oars thing is an IMAGE or a ANALOGY save me the ‘lectures’ about how it is some freaking bullshit about ‘crooked thinking’ or something. I know how you ‘think’ if you could only stop that a bit YOU might not be ‘in your head’ so much. With 2 oars you might even occasionally have a bit of different ‘scenery’ but the thing about you is you LIKE the scenery not matter how ‘boring’ it looks from the outside. Fair dues to you on that but I don’t see it as a ‘program’ that appeals much to anyone else…………..and certainly not the ‘young’ who you imagine to be a certain way, David shows a much more ‘realistic’ knowledge about that………….and many other things too but IMO that would not be that hard…………..to be more ‘realistic’ than you you are super ‘ideological’ a big word for being ‘in your head’ you are SO much there that it is your favorite insult to the likes of me but not ONLY me…………….I looked at the Primal Support Group blog and there was ANOTHER guy there you are berating for being totally ‘in his head’……………it was a strange experience for me like do I have a ‘double’ running around somewhere……………….but then I realized nah………………it’s just Jack’s ALL PURPOSE ‘insult’………….time maybe to get a new one but I forgot you LOVE the ‘scenery’ no matter how repetitive and ‘boring’………………
Interesting what you say about the state of, “being in the head.,” Patrick. We used to point out to people that that was the greatest of the human gifts, the ability to survive with the pain. To suicidal patients I would genuinely say, aren’t you glad you have a choice if the pain becomes so intolerable…. respecting choices is I think is empowering.
And for people who were terrified they weren’t , ” succeeding,” therapy wasn’t working, the assurance defenses would become reestablished was comforting. I’ve got some ,” thought,” rumbling around, and maybe going nowhere, that maybe someone who believes Primal isn’t working for them has in fact had more success that is recognized. Awareness just seems to be more progressive than numb, in feeling and thought.
There are people whose behavior is so objectionable to me that I have no interaction with them But I wish them no harm. Do them no harm.
canoes: are managed with one oar. seemingly most of them arrive where they set out to arrive. It depends on how use use it 😦
Just for the hell of it … I mentioned to Jim this morning that the Sun was coming out. His response was ” Oh!!! is it gay?” 🙂 🙂 .
Sounds like your body is protesting, saying to slow down; especially if you are overwhelmed. (Just a thought.) What to do?? Wonder what a therapist would say.
S.
Hope you are feeling better Guru. Does doing something to take your mind away from the pain help to not feel overwhelmed? Also, Patrick, watched the piece with Ortiz and Janov group few months ago and found it interesting. Art, now a true senior citizen, and not afraid to show emotions crying. Yes, death anniversaries are hard. I still dream of my parents as alive and awaken slowly to face the reality in the morn.
S.
That’s awful UG. It’s always seemed to me that you have a big mountain to climb, which you avoided doing a long time ago and have given up.
familiar territory, Larry
What does that mean?
string Larry=”Primal Mountain”;
string THE_Ultimate_Superstar_Guru=”Economic Damages Mountain”;
Just meaning I can relate to what you say.
I did recently have an ‘insight’ into this thing about something being ‘the same’ or ‘boring’ and I did realize it was/is a big issue for me……………..because even from a young age I always wanted something ‘new’ or wanted to get away from where I was actually at. So I ‘choose’ to go to boarding school was not sent there…………..I was always moving ‘away’ away from where I was and worse away from myself……………………..so to be honest here even now I realize my ‘2 oars in the water’ idea though I think it IS good and explains a lot is ALSO connected with my desire/need to get away………………..get away from where I am at. I remember in College a lot of people were starting to get into ‘meditation’ and it never appealed to me……………like someone would say all you have to do is lie down relax and get into yourself…………………….and without even ‘thinking’ about it it never appealed to me I could not nor had I any desire to do it. That’s why also last week I was kind of saying hold off on ‘putting down’ meditation………………….it seems like ANY ‘idea’ we might have or I should say I might have is based on a ‘feeling’ even my beloved ‘2 oars in the water idea’. But I don’t like primal (the way I see it) then REDUCING everything to a ‘feeling’……………….that ITSELF is just another ‘idea’ based on some other ‘feeling’ not valid either………………this kind of stuff can and does go on forever and ever…………..welcome to the wacky world of infinite regression…………..could primal be described as that……………..so not only are we spinning in circles we are doing it BACKWARDS lol…………..Jack note the ‘lol’ don’t take this as an ‘attack’ on YOUR ‘idea’ ……………..the one you are in your head about lol again………………………….
…………..or another one I don’t like it ‘here’ here on the blog but I AM here and I STAY here…………….that is a big issue for me…………the environment surrounding me does not feel good but I am trapped in it, can’t actually get away……………feels like being surrounded by a toxic soup………………….that wouid be an ‘old feeling’ no doubt about it…………….
Here is something I just stumbled across. I found it quite interesting and not at all boring, I hope Janov is ok, I am sure he is this was done I think over a year ago. And I did catch him in one little what as kids we called ‘fibs’
The audio is inaudible. Will have to connect, and here I date myself, it to my stereo receiver.
David: I watched it also, all 90 minutes, and found it almost inaudible … especially Janov himself.
Jack
I went to the web and tried 3 sites with the same results. Production glitch I guess. I was truly disappointed. Listened to another current inteview. Fr, Janov’s voice is still clear and strong; vocabulary sharp.
It came to me today while cutting down some firewood trees for a friend, that Dr. Janov in early writings said that in our early times it was likely that we primaled naturally. I’ll have to check some of my notes from the 70’s. I could still read my hand writing then… ha
David: It’s my contention that, that is correct and that Primaling (re-living) old feelings is not new. What I do feel however, is that most that did so, interpreted it as a religious (spiritual) expereince … hence totally missed out on it’s usefulness..
I say this since had someone really known what was taking place, that it would have been broadcast … one way or another. It seems to me that it did not occurr.
I also feel that the psychodelic movement of the early hippies (the beatnicks) had a major influence on Janiov. Not sure if Art or Vivian or even Rick Janov would be willing to fill in upon Art’s biography; leading up to the event with Danny Wilson.
We may never know, but in hindsigh.t I feel not much of that now matters.
Jack
When I say , “in the past,” Jack, he was referring to our less , “civilized,” ancestors. That they probably did not internalize, rather responded immediately, emotionally, to stimuli.
This is purely subjective but I can think of little children who try to do that and are talked down, with guilt, shaming, manipulative logic, challenging the accuracy of their recall. I remember saying, and I feel quite ill now, saying to my children, ” Is that any way to speak to a Daddy who loves you?”
I heard loud and clear from a 17 year old daughter how my always attending to her toddler colic hours of distress was perceived as me keeping her from her mom.
Acts of commission, omission, and out of the best of intentions all carrying the risk of causing harm.
“When I say , “in the past,” Jack, he was referring to our less , “civilized,” ancestors. That they probably did not internalize, rather responded immediately, emotionally, to stimuli.”
I totally agree … what I was referring to is the last 10 to 20 millennium. I speculate that we have been neurotic at least that amount of time.
Jack.
I was leaving the local mini mall yesterday as a woman exited the community transit shuttle, hand on crotch, loudly announcing, ” Gangway, I gotta piss. I took fluid pills at my doctor’s office an hour ago, not a god thing before boarding a bus.” A fine example of immediate self full expression and not holding , “IT,” in…….
Now that’s weird, I listened to it this morning without a problem and I checked it again now I can hear EVERYTHING!!. The only problem a bit is you can hear the Pacific Ocean waves in the background which is a little distracting but no I can hear everything!. That’s really odd………………….I found it quite fascinating and also found it quite interesting to kind of ‘compare’ Ortiz’ journey and Janov’s……………….just really interesting I thought.
BTW a prize for whomever can spot Janov’s little ‘fib’ it’s really a LITTLE one I should not even focus on it and I am sure it is not a ‘fib’ just his memory is a bit faulty. I was inclined to doubt some of the ‘creation myth’ of primal therapy but it all seems to be true.
I went through all of my audio settings but not only your posted video but all sites offering the Ortiz Janov interview and every other on Janov’s site where he is interviewed, and the Primal Sessions. I can hear the patients quite well. Also France’s videos are clear and loud. Arthur’s radio interview on his book is fine.
I’m going to hook into my sound system as soon as I can get a USB cable that’s long enough.
On a bit of a rool right now but I just found this also, it’s an interview with Janov about his last book “Life Before Birth” I thought this quite a good interview
My Mom died a year ago to-day (actually June 2nd but ‘today’ in that it was a Monday)…………and it just struck me now she died on a Monday morning………………like was another ‘work week’ too much for her……………..not that she was working now but she did and so much for so long, no wonder she was tired and would not want another week……………..7 children constant farm work including milking cows making a fire everything.washing clothes cooking all the meals on and on and on………….the amount of work she had to do was inhuman. I feel bad for her today I was not getting what I needed from her at all but I don’t feel she was a ‘bad’ mother in that she had some real bad cruel or crazy streak…………….she did not in a different environment she could have been a very good Mother. Her instincts were always there just shoveled under literally you could almost say I cry a little for her now
It’s also interesting she died on June 2nd TWO of my brothers have a birthday on June 3rd. I really don’t think there is anything there but today I think of her like that facing another week of relentless work and 2 births also………………..just all too much for the poor dear. I was just another selfish greedy boy who wanted to be fed, held, talked to, touched listened to……………….but she only had time to feed me. She did that and very well…………..it’s not an accident I suppose that I have focused on ‘diets’ it was about all I had to work with but no blame no shame on her. She also washed my clothes and made sure I had time for my ‘lessons’ but there is a yawning gap where her instincts were never allowed to flower. They would have and could have with some encouragement. Rest in Peace Mommy you ‘deserve’ and have ‘earned’ your rest.
Wow Patrick: That was extremely moving.
Jack
Thanks Jack.
Patrick: How painful was it for your mom to raise 7 kids on the farm like that? Being able to blast through all that work…week after week…year after year..It would sound like a continually miserable existence she had to endure, yet the meaning of family was so strong that it was easy for her to set aside those everyday working pains if she endured it as such.
It seems so sad now when the main goal of life for my Mom was to get a rest from it. As Catholics we were told there was Heaven where we would go but my Mom even felt I’d say at the end was all she was going to get was ‘rest’. And she appreciated that……………….so many times in her life she wanted to rest but could not or was not allowed
I like my songs and this is not really the one I want. But it’s something and sung by a woman Marianne Faithful…………………….not that my Mom was anything like Marianne, no high jinks or glamour or ‘fags’ to smoke. Still it’s the best I can do
I was deeply touched by your words/feelings, Patrick.. I have quite dealt with my mom’s abuses of me on this side of the womb. It is a wonder having survived her childhood traumas, then the drudgery of caring for 4 boys, the infant death of a daughter, no modern amenities, scrubbing on a scrub board, hanging clothes outside 12 mo/yr; cutting firewood; with little help from a coureurs de bois dreamer husband, that she was able to meet any of our needs at all.
I grieve sometimes for the relationship we never had.
Thanks David (also Guru)…………….yes that is kind of how I feel “the relationship we never had.” sums it up a lot.
Growing up as a child I was always on my Dad’s ‘side’ but being with my Mom as she was dying I so much saw her point of view. It really changed how I saw the dynamics of the family. Doesn’t change my childhood feelings but I find ‘understanding’ like that very helpful to me. I find I carry a lot less bitterness towards her now that I got to hear and see all her side of the story. In a different environment she could have been a very good Mom I do believe………………..the environment we find ourselves in can bring out the best or the worst in us. That is true of everybody ‘fault’ pretty much misses the point…………
Hi to Sylvia, Patrick, and Larry:
The blog is getting messy up above so I will post this at the end. I will keep this as simple as possible because I am not looking to be a burden to anyone right now. I simply wanted to just say what I had to say yesterday where I knew at least someone would listen.
Also, I am having a lot of trouble delineating between the plain old pain of everyday hard work and drudgery vs. the repressed pain of the past. If I have a mountain of work in front of me, isn’t it normal to hesitate in despair before trying to tackle it? It’s much easier to simply lay down and put it all off. I cannot do that, though, not enough time.
That is all really. I am bemoaning the aching pains of everyday hard work and it never seems to let up. Should I study and explore how it’s feeling while I do this endless work? It feels like the gravity of the Earth getting the best of me in my mute struggle for excellence of some kind.
I’m rambling too much here. The bottom line: I can’t tell for sure what pains are everyday drudgery and what pains are trauma-based.
I remember Fred Farrar’s papers about the Buddhist concept of dukkha which is “universal pain”.
I just don’t know where the “universal pain” of everyday human working survival drudgery ends and any traumas seeping to the surface begins.
Hi Guru. I guess logically it would make sense to table trying to feel and just focus on your work for now. For me, when under pressure to get something done, it’s best to just do the here and now mode and trudge through. Later, if work demands ever stop, you’ll have the leisure to feel if you want to. And if you do feel a bit, maybe the next time your work load won’t feel so ominous. Then, again, maybe you just have too much work. I know a lot of times I look at something thinking I don’t want to do it, it’s just too hard; but I start doing it and it’s easier than I thought. I know others have written about that here too. We think something will be as hard as it always was. I think that feeling of it’s too hard comes from an early feeling but it somehow attaches itself to now. Anyway.
Sylvia: There is one other important thing I didn’t mention here which I discussed with Gretchen a long while back. I don’t want to get into all of that here, but …well the amount of the work is not entirely overbearing (though it’s a lot), but rather the complexity and risk of failure. Makes it feel like it’s not worth trying. Extremely cerebral work, though. I started some computer programming back when I was 14 and I will always regret being distracted into drugs and alcohol in my later teens instead of continuing more computer lessons.
Thanks for writing and paying attention to what I had to say!
By the way, Larry:
I am envious that you are going to retire soon without any financial worries. I know you don’t seem to like the lack of a quasi-support system at work, but I personally almost never get bored by anything and I can find a scintillating kaleidoscope of meaning from even the smallest cluster of molecules, if necessary. I’m sure you can do the same if you need to.
I suppose this is getting a bit self indulgent of me but I tracked down one of the good days I had with my Mom as she was close to death. It is a big deal for me because I had so few of them and it is something I cherish to at least have had something like that before she died.. For that reason I suppose I want to drag it out again. This was written last May 2014
“I appreciate that everyone here is I suppose I could say trying to ‘help’ me. And my situation/position is ‘complicated’ in that all the time I am here I too run everything through the ‘primal filter’ so it’s not that I ‘reject’ it or disagree with it so much……………but the primal filter is also so much part of my alienation or certainly has been.
I won’t even attempt to ‘argue’ let me just describe a little. My Mom is I think close to the end but I have had two beautiful days with her, listening to her and how she felt, about her marriage especially. Her mind is crystal clear, she remembers everything in sharp detail, not just the events but the feelings she had. I got a beautiful sense her ‘moving’ through life, she lived like that instinctively, not a lot of formal education but just simply and again that word instinctively.
I mostly listened and now she moves through life no more but her mind still does and I followed her every ‘move’ in rapt attention. She told me how my Dad courted her (minimally), they hardly ‘knew’ each other at all, That was Ireland in the late 1940’s. But my Dad seemed like a nice man, had a car unusual in those days, had a reasonably good farm. She entered the marriage with high hopes. I asked her did you like that he had a car? She said oh yes I did. She seems now so truthful small little exchanges like that mean a lot to me.
I have always seen my Dad as the ‘good guy’ and my Mom as the ‘bad guy’…………….but now I see it so different. My Dad (like me) was an ‘insensitive’ (to women especially) business guy, he was a farmer but also ‘invested’ in the stock market, was an onion ‘dealer’ etc. I loved my Dad growing up but he I see now ‘manipulated’ me too and also ‘against’ my Mom. She was ‘simple’ or simple minded in his terms he was the ‘educated’ one etc blah blah blah. What a mistake!!. The old Irish have an amazing instinctive (feeling) way of living. My Mom was from that world, my Dad not. He sort of aped the “English” ways and I followed him to my great cost. I missed out on my Mom’s wisdom and simplicity.
I could to on and on, too many jumbled thoughts right now. I have also been talking to another woman in the hospital ward and it so wonderful to me, her ways of thinking, she has even written a book of stories she gleaned from even ‘older Ireland’. The pure instinctive ways of living just blow me away…………………….and yet they are completely ‘normal’ what is abnormal was my over intellectualized approach to life and going 6000 miles away to undergo ‘therapy’ was a huge symptom of that ‘alienation’. But it is me and it is what I have done and like everything is has to be ‘accepted’…………….! gotta go my brother is calling me
I just want to say I appreciate David being here. Honestly I feel better about the blog since he came around. I sense an open mind and just a nice and flexible attitude. Also he has given me ‘permission’ to put in so many entries I used to ‘censor’ myself but with his example to follow I don’t do it now. I hope I am not ‘over doing’ it but it feels nice to just bash out anything of any nature. That is a real nice thing about this blog I was on Dr Kruse’s blog for a while and still do here and there but it’s not the same. It’s like I feel I am supposed to have a ‘topic’ there here I don’t have to just whatever I am feeling or thinking about. Once again I give Gretchen major props for doing this and also want to thank her for not ‘barring’ me. God knows I gave her good reasons sometimes………………..
BTW David I imagine you might find that conversation between Ortiz and Janov interesting. Ortiz was very much influenced by Aboriginal culture and it seemed really good the way he explained and used it. I felt Janov to be almost ‘bourgeois’ by comparison but anyway worth listening to. I still don’t get what the audio issues are.
Patrick: Personally, the beginning of that video struck me as very strange with the ‘mother’s milk’ conversation, so I did some sidelong glances of the bleached walls, French doors, and switched the video off after a few minutes thinking about Malibu real estate values.
This train of thought isn’t symptomatic of anything against Janov per se, but rather it shows me how our personal values have diverged so much over the years.
Guru – do you mean your ‘values’ have diverged from Janov’s. I would have thought you would very much like a beach front property in Malibu. I would have nothing against it myself though to hear the sounds of the waves washing would make me quite nervous. Tsunamis, earthquakes even big storms. We grow up in Ireland near the beach but the people there would NEVER put a house so close to the ocean. Sometimes at night depending on some climatic factors that I don’t understand I could hear the distant roar of the ocean. I liked that but I also liked that it was at a safe distance.
I liked that video very much it had the feeling of not being controlled and I was especially impressed by Ortiz. That is the kind of person I could look up to.
Patrick: When I said “our values have diverged over the years” I meant our topics of interest in general. I don’t have anything against the video being done; I just have other things on my mind, that is all. Malibu is out of my price range and I wish I could change that as quickly as possible. The work involved in trying to do so is overwhelming (as I just wrote yesterday).
I met a fellow patient, he a post patient who could have afforded a Malibu residence, but sadly languishing in the Hills. ( Just my humor., no disrespect nor lack of sensitivity nor judgement..) No longer neurotic but trapped miserable because he couldn’t throw away those trappings because he’d have to leave the income stream, too, and his wife and children were accustomed to that lifestyle.
I was in two Malibu gated homes, as a mover. Bob Dylan has Porta Potties on his Malibu property for his bevy of resident servants. They have no inside facilities. How fucked up is that ???
Is that really true………….if so how terrible is that. Reminds me of the story and I think true that John Paul Getty had pay phones (back in the day when you dropped coins into them) all over his house. Bob Dylan though an undoubted genius seems to have a dark side even a lot of his ‘love’ songs sometimes had a bit of ‘hate’ in them. But I suppose that’s what makes him a good artist…………….he tries or gives a complete picture. This I always think of the greatest ‘break up’ songs ever…………
Yeah, our public broadcaster did a sleuth camera doc on Bob’s , “Howard Hughes,” dogmatics around the issue. I recall one clip catching him frenetically buzzing about his enclosure. Gated communities make me reflect on the tune.” Signs……,” by the Five Man Electrical Band.
Gated Communities, brought to you by, “Turf Builder.”
Patrick, what are ya doin’ ta me lad ? I clicked on the Dylan site, case of tissue by my side, and the screen reads, ” NOT AVAILABLE.” I sense some evil lurking about. First they silenced Janov and now Dylan……Must be an anti pain coalition….
I am a techo ignoramus How do I lift a you tube video and post it here ??
You have increased my resolve to jack up the volume somehow. What I did hear of Janov’s voice, ( I wonder is there more than one Janov in the world ?? hah) I was impressed that it sounded like the voice of a younger man, no word searching, which has begun to plague me, 20 years his junior. In the radio interview he is humble, humorous, but aptly secure to take credit for what he thinks he, personally, the therapy, and the therapeutic teams, has contributed to mental health, and the understanding of the developing brain.
And if only he had once just looked at me, had I shook his hand, or touched the hem of his garment, I would be a reborn man. hah. Do you suppose he donates old clothes to Good Will ?? Hmmm, the,” TSHIRT OF SANTA MONICA,” unwashed, sweat stained, better still if his faceprint is visible. There’s a shrine possibility there,Patrick. Coffee Shop sightings,a frosted cookie in his likeness, a Burrito that screams when bitten into…
And before anyone has a cerebral hemorrhage I am being humorous. I bet if Dr. Janov reads this blog, he’ll laugh his ass off at this. While I remain unmoved that the therapy should have been established far and wide decades ago, I have nothing but profound respect for the man as I perceive him.
Sylvia: In the days ahead, I will think about what you told me. I simply want to be able to persistently hammer through the difficult tasks in my life rather than caving in to the overpowering urge to fling my arms up in exasperated despair and simply lay down somewhere doing nothing.
Which is the defense, the procrastination, the giving up, or the hammering away??
Or are none of them defenses just current justifiable responses ??
I guess I could have better voiced my rather professorial sounding first reply to, do you think one of those responses is a defense, guru .
House again. the show moves me, gives me tears. he and his team fix people. I need fixing. I thought this on the way home from work: crying won’t fix me, it would take a whole lot of screaming. as described in the book by doctor janov, if my memory is correct, the kind of screaming that someone does when they are about to be murdered. i feel murdered, or maybe just beaten up badly. maybe that is what i picked to be my life, if I believed in reincarnation, and i pretty much don’t, but it is always interesting to think about it. my spirit would have gone into my embryo screaming, knowing what lay ahead for me.anyway, not even enough screaming would fix me. And so at times like these, I have to shout, well, its almost over anyways! As I get closer to my inevitable death, that is. I should write that I was driving home up Sepulveda Pass into the Valley, because it just needs to be noted, for some reason. Listening to the Sirius comedy channels. Rushing home to take care of the old dog, and also myself. Boring boring job today. Anyway, something so irrelevant as a comic talking about getting freebies at some show, put the figure of a woman in my head, while driving home today. This was before the thought about screaming above. I don’t have time to put this is proper sequence. It is more like the disjointed sequence of thought that I would have in group, and then the inability to get my mouth open to say those words in group. But maybe I could go to the little room and cry. Of course the figure of the woman then translated into my mom, and of course her leaving me at 10 months, which of course would then lead to baby me crying and definitely screaming. I can always hear that baby scream; it never really goes away. It is a very distinctive scream; maybe some of you have heard some baby scream at some point in your life. It is basically the same scream as the adult who is about to be murdered makes, but of course with baby vocal cords. Probably drove my uncle nuts, which made him want to murder me. Ok who came up with this scenario in Reincarnation Camp? Ok, who wants this one, Dad dies before you are born, mom dies when you are 10 months old, get placed with a cruel murderous uncle and cold aunt for a while, raised by a grandmother and teenage aunt who maybe just didn’t have the same touch as my mother; finally get a stable life at age 5 living next door to another aunt and uncle, kinder, better aunt and uncle; then get that taken away from me at age 10, always left alone in all those years, taking care of myself. Well why go on, who wants this one? Ok you in the khaki spiritual gown. Now who wants to go back as the mouse who gets grabbed by the hawk and is torn apart piece by piece while still alive, and fed to hawk babies? I must really go to bed. Someone got shot a block away from my house tonight by the Sheriffs, I didn’t hear it, need any more horrible thoughts???
I have tears running down my face, Otto. I hope I have enough connected humanity that they are for you, the baby you, and you the survived adult, and not just for me.
What are your real time thoughts about feeling it, getting through it.
I thought a lot last evening about my arrogance, my audacity, to lay claim to my right to be self centered about my pain, telling my story, when there is so much human misery, so much victimization. It is ubiquitous.
This season’s closing scene of the Blacklist, where the scenario is painted of World governments
conducting this experiment like professional wrestling promoters, planning the next war, the next famine, the next scary disease and disease outbreak…..
Janov spoke early on about the resiliency of children.
I am going to end here because I do not want to distract from what is important here, ” You, Otto.”
David – I will post down here…………..that’s frustrating it might be something from my computer. Like sometimes now in my own email it says I cannot play some youtube thing but if I click on the actual address (if it shows it – on this blog I don’t think it does) so then you might not be able to.
But the stuff yesterday was different a few people complained about the audio on Janov and Ortiz that I don’t know as I say I can hear it fine over the waves of Malibu.
Are you having me on about how to copy a youtube video? Well just in case your’e not say you are playing a song you like on youtube AS YOU ARE PLAYING IT (to make sure there is no mistakes) highlight and copy the web address bar. (Control-C) Then ‘paste’ it in this blog (Control -V)
It’s hard to talk about this how to do this without jargon but hopefully that works. Try it (you might like it)
Yep, that’s the copy and paste procedure I use but when I post it here all I get is the script description… I can post to email and Facebook ok, just not here.hmm
I tried, using three servers to hear the Janov Ortiz interview, but inaudible every time. I got bits of Ortiz but almost nothing of what Janov was saying. So it’s not your computer obviously.
David – I hope we are not cluttering up the blog too much (we are!!)…………..anyway just a bit more about this. Say you see here the ‘picture’ of the Bob Dylan song. Right click and you get some options, pick the top one which is something like “get URL address” pick that and that will show you the ‘address’ in the middle of the ‘picture’. Right click on that and it give you the ‘copy’ option. Then say to to your own email and ‘paste’ it in there and you can play it. Sorry I am getting totally irrelevant here………………I will go off for the day and leave a bit of space for other people………………..
glad to give you my email address: dvddoodle99@eastlink.ca
You might put up defenses against this, David, but with three failed attempts maybe God was telling you in his own mysterious way not to listen to Janov?
An elighting( no spelling error) perspective , guru. by oden ….. Maybe it’s a ruse to make me struggle….
Wonder if Charlie Manson ever considered, “… mysterious ways…” as a criminal defense ??
Dear Margaret,
I’m not sure I’m the same Bill Jones you know.
I met you only once, at a men’s Primal brunch around the time of a retreat.
I hope you are well.
Take care,
Bill Jones
> hi Bill,
> it dawned on me when it was too late the Bill I was thinking about has another last name..
> but then I remembered I had also met another Bill once at a retreat, an ‘old timer’ on a one time visit again, can that also have been you apart from the men’s brunch?
>
> anyway nice you remember me, well, haha, maybe a woman at a men’s brunch kind of stands out smiley..
> how are you doing with the caffeine?
> I know it is hard to kick those habits, have kicked several serious addictions, and right now have stopped for some time already to take the occasional codeine painkiller to give me a break from feeling scared and sad and therefor tense..
>
> not having them around, the pills I mean, is crucial, and finding a strong motivation to hang on to.
>
> still I often wake up feeling depressed, which then usually dissipates once I am up and about making myself do stuff despite the feeling of hopelessness..
>
> easier said than done, but it gets easier over time as it is clear it is the best way out of the paralising gloom..
>
> it is a very cold spring here now, and that does not help, and I still miss my cat I had to put to sleep about five weeks ago.
> am going to visit someone with two litters of kittens today, that search a good home, and hope one of the kittens really likes me, smiley, or maybe two, who knows..
>
> do you feel like telling us some more about yourself?
> thanks for replying, Margaret
> Tom,
> I remember your comment from some time ago, which resonated with me.
>
> one thought crossed my mind then, that at least you managed to achieve to raise what sounds like fine (grand)kids, and so fullfill the basic fact of your genes being passed and the chain continuing..
> of course I also know how huge your old pain is and that it interferes a lot with your daily feeling of wellbeing.
>
> guess it is my own life I am evaluating, which is hard, no dkids, no relationship, getting older, being disabled..
>
> then again, my litttle interview being posted now in the university magazine, with the paragraph about Primal Therapy intact, reminded me of another longer interview that was published about me in a more glossy magazine, and a 20 minutes long item about me and my ways of coping with my situation, on television a number of years ago..
>
> not really that important, but also not really completely nothing at all either, my feelings of insignificance and worthlessness must have a large level of old feeling in them..
>
> it is a long process of sifting out the old stuff and get a clearer view of actual reality.
>
> what you wrote made me feel the retreat might be very useful to you once more, as every time you seem to go to a deeper stage of that all encompassing huge feeling of yours.
>
> you are one very strong person, Tom, to keep facing that same monster time and again, making it shrink more and more bit by bit, while hopefully it gets more and more bearable to live with its presence.
>
> old pain always remains with us somehow, I think, but it gets way more manageable and its impact on our life gets smaller.
>
> but for me it seems to go in waves, and the current feeling on the rise is fear, a hard one as there seems not much way of release, no tears to shed, only enduring it and trying to function despite of it seem to be the ways to process it, which gets pretty exhausting from time to time..
>
> trying to live in the moment as much as possible is what I do, otherwise worries tend to overwhelm me.
>
> you are a courageous person, and I have great admiration for your capacity to be who you are in groups, you are a man in full to quote Tom Woolfe, in a very real kind of way.
> as you would say, I lift my hat for you, smiley..
> M
Hi Margaret
I’d like to respond to your comment below from June 3.
> one thought crossed my mind then, that at least you managed to achieve to raise what sounds like fine (grand)kids, and so fullfill the basic fact of your genes being passed and the chain continuing.<
You are right in what you said above. But. A big but.
I started to mimic life from about the age 12-13, when I realised that "I am feeling bad". I couldn't work out why. After all, I had 'everything' in life. Good in school, a gymnast, a swimmer, played piano, loads of friends etc, etc. It drove me mad, not feeling 'well'.
As an adult, I continued mimicking life. Got a job, had a few girlfriends, got married, had a child, did everything adults did. The problem was and still is ( don't tell anyone, top secret), that I still mimic life, but to a far lesser degree, as I become more concious.
It was like when I started therapy 32 years ago. The therapist would told me to ask for what I want. Me…..how can you ask me what I want, I don't know. You should know (the therapist).
What I have been wrestling with all my life, (a big secret), is that I am a baby. How can a baby articulate what he wants. I couldn't, didn't. It was my mum's and dad's job. I really hate to admit it, but they BOTH failed in providing me the nurturing I needed at that time.
Every day, something would drive me crazy, in the present, because NOTHING is ever it. I was so glad to read Janov's latest posting about" IT". So I wasn't crazy. IT does exist.
When will I get my IT? I want it now. Right now. Can't you see I am hurting. I am hurting all the time. Please! Give me IT. Please.
I rather, in hindsight, lived the way I felt. Like an orphan originally, then a homeless person on the street. At least it would've matched my feelings, that were well covered up and totally repressed.
Suzi used to say in the beginning that I am like a ghost, living in the shadows. Unfortunately, she was right.
I am still hurting. Non stop. Somebody, please help. Please hold me, care for me, love me.
Yesterday we were having a conversation and it took me back 3.5 years, when my mother died. I was called in 5 am to the nursing home. I sat next to her. She was dead. I couldn't leave. I kept looking at her, wanting something from her. I still do. When I go out to the cemetery to visit, I stand in front of her grave, and I am still waiting, maybe she will reach out and hold me. Look into my eyes. Be one with each other. For ever.
I am crying now as I am writing. Sorry. I am still a baby. Why can't I have my mum? I will be a good boy. Promise.
So yes, I built myself a life. At what cost?
And yes, I adore my son. He will be inside me till I die. I miss him. I love him.
Sorry. I got carried away.
Tom
> finally the feeling broke through.
> about an hour before friends pick me up to go see the kitttens, all of a sudden, while reading a novel in which the word ‘grief’ was mentioned, something clcked and the dam broke and I started crying, knowing what had been brewing all along.
>
> I still miss my cat so much..
>
> we have had a wonderful ten years together, and going to see another kitten triggers the feeling about goodbye, and about it being definite, crying again
I wailed the day my pal, Mitsu, died/was killed,over several hours; 8 years ago. I held Jake
Shih tzu, 21 earth years with me, while he died, natural cause.
My father died holding my hand.
I hurt more when , “The Friendly Giant”, Robert Homm, died.
>
> have been to cats and kittens foster mothers, was such a heartwarming experience, large family, kids, teenage daughter with baby, and very warm mother, or grandmother, was not entirely clear, with a girlfreind of hers that also fosters stray cats with kittens when necessary.
>
> they also had a little dog and a huge male cat, but all very friendly, even to the new kitttens when they were brought in from the house nextdoors to visit and meet the possible new human companions.
>
> kittens that form bonded pairs stay together and don’t get separated, but many of them are more lonerlike venturers eager to go their own way, the difference shows early.
>
> two of the three kittens I saw today immediately responded by calming down when I made little purry cat sounds, and when I gently stroked the right spots, and sniffed my nose, a definite cat greeting, and rubbed their smell on me and then installed themselves warm and comfortably in my neck and half on my face, one of them, and the other one in the palm of one hand on my chest..
>
> this is important as cats are choosy on who they like or dont like, and they were so very cute, black and white, actually white with black spots, their heads very nice with a white muzzle and white stripe on the forehead, and the area of the ears black, one tip of one ear white..
> the ladies were very ateentive at how we strangers would deal with the cats, but they were actually thrilled to how fast the kittens trusted and liked me. I think they had been a bit worried about me being blind, but that worry quickly vanished completely.
>
> it was such a warm happy atmosphere there, with the kids also very gently handling the kittens, the big cat watching it all philosophically and going here and there for a bit of petting, the baby reaching out to the kittens in their bench in the end, the baby’s hand touching a kittens paw through the mazes of the bench they were in to go back to their cat mommy next door.
>
> it was like a warm shower,both people and kittens so open and warm and welcoming.
>
> there are new strict regulations here, pretty crazy, about when to sterilize and vaccinate new kittens, but we agreed not to follow those rules, but to do it differently, but I do not want to go into this here, too much interfering advice already and I am old and wise enough to find my own way in my own situation.
>
> al the information was welcome, but well, I am not completely ignorant myself either, thank you very much..
>
> this comment is mostly meant for the likes of Sylvia for example, also clearly an active cat lover and provider of a happy home for a few of the many cats needing one.
>
> it would be great if all cats could roam freely in the woods and come home for a warm shelter when they like, but the fact is there are simply too many cats already giving birth to kittens who are there now, and either get a home that is not a house in a huge yard full of mice and birdies, but still a catfriendly welcoming place and much better than the asylum or a final injection.
>
> and f.., why do I have to defend here, it feels so right, a win win situation, under the circumstances, and all hostility I received about this is really so out of place I refuse to give into it, so well, dear Sylvia, this one is for you. I feel warm and happy after having felt once more how nice it is to feel able to make a kitten or cat feel safe and happy as well.
>
> and belive me, I have a clear conscience very attentive about what feels right or wrong towards an animal, so please give me the benefit of the doubt at least and stop the criticizin and projecting. not you Sylvia, of course.
>
> M
Margaret – you do a pretty good job there talking about me but not mentioning my name. That’s cool…………..I seem to have that effect on people. I’m not sure that’s so cool (that I affect people that way) but it is what it is as the Italians say…………..I have to ‘own’ that as Jack says………….
Hi Margaret. Glad you had such a nice experience with the foster kitties. When I was little I played with my cats and kittens rather than with my dolls. I just needed something alive. I’ve always had a soft heart for these babies. I’m lucky that my brother cares about pets too and knows what they mean to me and thinks it’s great when I can care for them and nurse them back to health if need be. It’s always nice having someone encouraging you. Keep up the good work. (I think caring for pets helps us care about people too.)
🙂
(:
/\ /\
(.) (.)
Y
~/
><
Margaret, Heartwarming description of your visit to kittens..
Jo
> JO, thanks!
> how are you doing, are you settling in there? I hope so, you deserve some good times, M
Margaret, thanks for asking how I am… I’m feeling fairly settled.. I’ve joined a tennis club nearby, and playing regularly now, which makes me happy, and gives me an opportunity to socialise. Typically, on my way to the club this morning, I felt the usual slight anxiety, which is about coming into a group as the new girl. This dissipates quickly as I’m now used to saying hello and making conversation.
So, I do have moments of feeling “at home”, and feel I chose this town really well!
Jo
🙂
Dear Margaret,
I’m glad you met an old-timer you liked at a retreat. However, it wasn’t me;I’ve never been to a retreat.
Again, I wish you well.
Take care,
Bill Jones
Jo,
> that is very nice to hear!!
> Sylvia, smiley
>
> M
While not Primal Associated, I recommend this site: info@iahp.org
The Institutes for the Achievement for the Development of Human Potential, PA have been healing severe brain injury for 50 years. They are as bonafide as sunshine. If the symptom is brain injury related, deaf, blind, mentally retarded, Downs Syndrome, Spastic, ADD, ADHD, Cerebral Palsy, Stroke, it can be and is regularly healed. I think that does coincide with Primal and Janov’s research. Normalcy is their goal regardless if the injury was caused before or after birth.
I recommend What to do About Your Brain Injured Child, Glen Doman; and the Pathway to Wellness. In a way the Doman, ” method,” is no different than the Janov method, it uses brain pathways to achieve normalcy.
My computer has a gremlin, so I may be on furlough for a bit. This took 1/2 hour to produce.
Since David’s computer has a gremlin to ‘help out’ here what he has given of course is the email address. The website is http://www.iahp.org which would be what he wanted to show I am sure.
I have looked at it and it seems interesting though I don’t really get a sense of what they do. I am probably being too lazy to find out. But I have tried to contact me and they are supposed to call me back.
What I am interested in is ‘vaccine damage’ and the possibilities of recovering from that. I know 2 boys who are quite badly afflicted whether by vaccines or something else I don’t actually know. But I consider it a big possibility.
I have read a huge amount about vaccines and am as convinced as I could be they are harmful maybe very harmful for some. What I don’t know is there anything much that can be done in terms of recovery or is it just a case of ‘damage done’. My primal orientation always feels recovery is sort of possible for almost anything…………….but I don’t think that is all together true. ‘Damage done’ IS a big factor in life including psychological damage.
If anyone here has heard of anything along the lines of vaccine recovery I would be very interested but I am really looking for some more ‘physical’ type thing, ‘psychological’ can come later if it comes at all…………
gremlin erradicated !! The address I gave was correct. They will send short monthly eletters telling the story of a recovered brain injured child. The legendary book explains the process, a process conceived of by WW 11 hero, Dr. Glen Doman, and Neurosurgeon Temple Fay and developed by the practical application experience of parents and children over 50 years.
I will try to be brief. ” Me,”, hah ..
They use a developmental profile of the brain injured covering all spectrums of development. At whatever stage the brain injured passes , ALL tests, “he, ( for convenience,) regardless of chronological age, is deemed to be at that age of development, be it birth or 3 years.
Children with Downs, Cerebral Palsy, etc obviously have those injuries at birth. They are not however non curable.
A program is then created to mimic every activity he would have passed though on the way to becoming a normal, 10 year old, say. If the brain injury has affected the organ of sight, or the organ of hearing, in addition to general, “exercises,” there would be special vision and hearing stimulation to reestablish
those functions.
A good deal of long dedication by parents, family, is needed. The cost to the family is minimal. I know it works because I have seen the results.
The most severe where I have had personal connection was a drowned hospital resuscitated 7 yr old, Australian child. After a year doctors stopped life support. He kept breathing. The medical recommendation was to withdraw water and nourishment. Blind, deaf, a ,” vegetable,” he fully recovered at the Institutes. He speaks 5 languages fluently, astro physics became his passion..
The last adult patient was Senator Joseph Kennedy. 3 years after his massive stroke, resident at the best stroke recovery centre money could buy, his condition had worsened, no speech, wheel chair confined. He was received on condition the family was not permitted to pay for treatment.
In a short time Joe Kennedy was walking and talking. They have a coma arousal team that has lured long term people back from, ” vegetative ,” states.
Your question about vaccine damage is interesting. The theory is that it is a defense builder rather than a cellular modifier. I must admit that I am a skeptic of
vaccines. I have a friend, post primaler and a doctor, who is skeptical, thinks that some do some good, that the benefits has been overblown, and that risks and damage are understated. Another friend, a doctor, with neurology and oncology expertise, does not recommend vaccination, except for Pneumovax; his children are unvaccinated.
That makes sense I would say. Most any ‘mental problem’ can be seen as ‘arrested development’ of some kind or other. We get stuck or stopped at a tender age. So to start it up again is the difficult part……………..whatever we (I) do we will tend to be ‘in-appropriate’ so it takes understanding people around for it to have a chance. It’s a ‘dialectic’ I suppose you could say, feeling pain is part of it of course but maybe bigger is finding the thread that was lost and picking it up again and kind of doing the steps now that ideally should have happened then. That’s takes a lot of understanding by people in the environment. Maybe that’s what they provide somehow and leads to their good results if all they are saying is true.
I only know personally a hand full of kids treated with the Institutes guidance; Several ” trainable mentally handicapped,” , two very delayed , physically ill “Downs Syndrome,” one cerebral palsy; one Intellectually delayed with a congenital rotating nystagmus, one drowning victim, 7 years old under water at well bottom for 11 minutes. All attained or regained normalcy.
A mom whose daughter I sponsored to IFAHP told me of meeting a recovered former patient working there in general maintenance. She asked if that reflected his level of recovery. He said no, but they had a full compliment of doctors and he wanted to give back to the program that saved his life.
That brought a lump to my primal throat…
> David,
> it’s clear you cared deeply about your animals.
> sometimes I am not entirely sure wht kind of animal you talk about at some point, dogs and one real bull, like in bullfight, is that right?
> that must be the gentle giant, isn’t it?
> didn’t he ever try to chase someone out of his territory?
> I truely love that feeling of connection there can be with animals, at different levels.
>
> I remember once when I could still see well, and I was walking in the hills in Spain, I suddenly ran into a fox, beside the trail, not far away at all.
> we both stood still, and just looked in each otther’s eyes for a while. it was such an open gaze, just a pure connection, in which he must have picked up I meant no harm whatsoever, as after a while he just calmly turned away and trotted along, without hurrying.
> I cherish that memory, those honeycoloured bright eyes and the privilege of that brief but intense encounter.
> those are the kind of things I deeply miss not having proper eyesight anymore.
> M
the, ” bull,” most likely refers to a Valley Bull Dog; there was a bovine bull on the bio dynamic farm where I worked who was friendly. Once he achieved breeding age he became aggressive and not safe to interact with. I had a client whose Hereford bull remained like a companion dog all of his life. I think I would never trust one.
David, I’d worry about getting that bull upset; over 1000 pounds of angry pot roast charging. Phil
yep, that’s a lotta bull. I like to stay safe. ” Charlie,” is long since become burger. He was a bright guy, but a bull. I hunted deer for decades. No more. I stay away from the farm on killing days. I treat all of the animals as pals. Meat is a necessity for some. At least these guys have a good home, grass fed, free to roam, no meds, homeopathic remedies on occasion.
There I run on again…
David, Your animals sure have it good. I’m not free to roam and will have to wait for retirement to do that. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20268) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
I just volunteer for gas money on farm, Organic, Bio Dynamic.
But look on the bright side Phil, ya got to keep your nuts…
Unless you’re smarter than me, retirement hain noo great shakes either. My pension fund got raped while I wasn’t paying attention; per usual. OUCH !!!
Barry says what doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger, fuck am I strong or what…..hah This is a laf at life day …..
Hi All
Where did you all disappear to?
Or am I not getting the low-down for some reason?
Is everyone on vacation? From this blog?
Any reason why?
Tom
Tom: I’m here also, but there was nothing inspiring until you wrote your message. So! you’ve revived us all.
Jack
I’m here Tom…. See you soon!
When I rarely see you here Tom, I lose interest.
I’m rapidly physically deteriorating. I feel I’m suddenly aging very very quickly, or have contracted something very serious like fibromyalgia, lupus, muscular dystrophy, or multiple sclerosis. I have weakness, muscle and joint aches and pains throughout my limbs, feet, hips, and neck. It is getting worse by the day. I wake up in the mornings painfully stiff and sore. It is hard to walk or raise my arms. I have to force myself to move and gradually increase my range of motion so that I’m gradually able to function through the day although with weakness, stiffness and pain. Late in the day I’m exhausted. I’ll be wearing long pants, undershirt, shirt, hoodie, and jacket, and still feel chilled on a 20 C summer evening, while colleagues I’m with wearing only T-shirt and shorts feel warm. If this continues life won’t feel worth living. When I see myself in a mirror I look very old.
I am scared. My doctor hasn’t found any infection that would be the cause of my symptoms. Next week I will see the results of another blood test to determine whether I have an autoimmune disease.
Yesterday it occurred to me that I might have a calcium/magnesium deficiency or imbalance. Yesterday after work I soaked in a tub of dissolved magnesium chloride. It is a quick way to take in magnesium. Today I feel some relief and on a road back to normal. I so look forward to having my health and strength back and the chance to enjoy life with all of it’s emotional pains, sorrows, and joys. For the next few days I will continue with topically applied magnesium. Next week I’ll see my doctor again.
I am allergic to dairy products so don’t eat them. In December I was advised that too much calcium supplementation is harmful, and that we get enough from our food. In January I stopped taking my calcium supplements, which have magnesium also. In February, down with a cold, I first noticed a lot of neck stiffness. Then in March some shoulder pain and stiffness as well. Instead of feeling all better when my colds went away, as time goes by I’ve been feeling more and more weak, stiff, and in pain. I hope that with the magnesium supplementation I’m on the track back to health. I think I’ll make an appointment to see a naturopathic doctor.
Believe me, physical health is the best gift of all, the foundation from which the rest of our life flows.
Larry: Sad reading about all your aches and pains. I hope you get some relief and that it happens quickly. You have at least that zest for life.
Take great care and hope the doc has some good news for you.
Jack
Larry,That sounds scary. I hope your condition continues to improve.Phil
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 13:52:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Larry,Did you get tested for Lyme disease? Maybe you got bit by a tick at somepoint without realizing it.Phil
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 13:52:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Good point Phil..
Hi Larry
Physical ailments are terrible, but not as ever lasting as emotional damage. Or are they? I don’t know any more.
I really am with you on what you’re going through at the moment. I’ve also been feeling pretty bad the last few weeks. After weeks of running to the toilet due to my incessant drinking of cherry juice, to avoid gout, two cataract operations, a major bout of allergy and now a suspected kidney stone attack, which turned out to be a pulled inner muscle after weeks of coughing, I am physically finished.
Today is my first day on recovery, after spending the whole afternoon in the local hospital’s Emergency yesterday.
I cannot tell as yet, what brought what on. Did I FEEL bad enough to get sick, or I got sick, so that I will be reminded that I am still not well enough emotionally. Don’t take me too seriously here, as I am theorising a lot.
I even started to panic that I may be not well enough to travel to the summer retreat. So I have to get my shit together. There is no way I’ll miss this or any other future retreats. Other than when I’ll get too old to travel. It’s a prick of a trip, 14 hours non-stop there and 15 hours non-stop back. It always takes me days and days to recover. Would’ve never made a good airline steward.
Fight like crazy man. I want to see your face at the retreat. OK? Do you hear me?
Tom
Get better you too Tom, sorry you’ve been so poorly..Jo
I hope you find some help with your ailments Tom. Regular doctors are important, but personally I also put stock in naturopathic doctors.
> Larry,
> sorrry to hear that.
> hope you are on the track of recovery now!
> M
Get better Larry….you sound scared.. I expect you’ve gone down the diet route?
My doctor insists there are no Lyme disease carrying ticks here, and it’s too early in the year to have caught West Nile Virus from the carrier mosquitoes that aren’t out until later this summer.
I had only recently become very concerned that after recovering from a series of colds etc., I,m still now for some reason clearly seriously deteriorating by the day. In the last week I’ve been too weak, stiff and achy to exercise, which is very unusual for me. I’m scared. I need an answer soon. If I find that transdermal intake of magnesium immediately gives me finally signs of relief and turnaround, I’ll have a pretty good idea that the answer to my condition is nutritional.
Larry; Just dropped in house briefly from cleaning at lodge; Will check again tomorrow if you saw this. There’s something afoot. I’m hearing these symptoms and the exact same onset pattern from a bunch of people. Do your feet, besides painful have a numb sensation and a sensation that they are expanding, not just a swelling type feeling, but an internal pressure..
Adding a cup of food grade Epsom Salts and 2 cups of Baking Soda to the Magnesium Chloride will increase the transdermal uptake.
david
Larry,In your travels you may have been bitten by a tick. You would think your doctorcould just order the test to rule out Lyme. I’m keyed into to that as I know severalpeople who have been badly effected by chronic Lyme disease. In one case, it took the person years to discover that the source of health problemswas Lyme disease and co-infections from some past tick bite. The acute phase of the illness can be insignificant and not treated and then it lingers on.Of course, it could be something completely different. I hope you’re on the righttrack with what you are already doing.Phil
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 18:03:15 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hi Larry. It sure sounds like autoimmune. Guess they do an ana test and sedimentation rate. Hang in there and take care. feel for you.
Patrick You talk about the money to be made on Lyme disease testing and treatment etc, but isn’t Dr. Kruse also selling something? What’s controversial and unsettled is Lyme disease as a chronic condition. Authorities are saying it doesn’t exist but some doctors are treating patients for chronic Lyme disease against those recommendations. Phil
Phil – I don’t really mean Lyme Disease (for example) is like some ‘conspiracy’ to make money it’s more the way the system has evolved. i am sure there are lots of sincere doctors working on it. And of course it is ‘complicated’ and I am far from being any kind of ‘expert’ but reading the literature on the Lyme’s ‘community’ that is doctors, patients etc it was sort of obvious to me basically they DON”T KNOW much of anything for sure about it. It can be for sure a kind of one way road to I don’t want to say ‘Hell’ by believing and following a lot of the ‘protocols’ but yes in a way
As for Dr Kruse I don’t actually know his motives really………….he has a ‘job’ doing brain surgery so his internet activities from where I know him seems to be mostly a ‘hobby’. He does not talk much about it but he has mentioned it is ‘money losing hobby’ once. I and other members pay him $99.00 a month but he has to have web site programming and support and a lot of things of that nature that are expensive to do.He also puts enormous time into it webinars, Q&A’s etc etc that are hugely time consuming. I have mentioned how on this Cruise as far as I can tell I am only paying directly to the Cruise Line. He seems to make no money from that. Like if you were to pay the Sisters in Santa Barbara directly and not to the PI. (Patrick’s ‘idea’ for this year lol). So like anyone he has to make a living I would not begrudge him that but he does not seem to be motivated by money. He said to me when I met him his goal was to change Medicine, to ‘reform’ it from top to bottom. I told him “Good Luck” with that one and even if he did we still as a species have huge problems (global warming etc etc)
As ‘radical’ as he is I don’t think he is quite radical enough……………he is after all a doctor and still though he tries to get away from it imbued with ‘medical dogma’. He has mentioned the most painful thing he has had to confront was the 40 years of ‘education’ was mostly wrong. BUT he still seems to think vaccines might have some purpose, he seems to ‘waver’ on the importance of HIV whereas I think it has no importance. But I have seen (on-line) several of his ‘people’ deal with things like mold, Lyme’s etc with impressive results if you believe all they say. Like anyone he is not perfect and he has a background and bias I am sure.. Another aspect of Medicine nowadays is it may not be ‘safe’ to be a ‘vaccine denialist’ or an ‘AIDS denialist’…………………this kind of reputation could ruin a doctor’s job prospects and could lead to bigger problems. Again he has not talked about this but I wonder if it might not be a factor.
Sorry I talk too much about him probably but yes there is ‘controversy’ about for example Lyme’s – you say so yourself here – which shows to be it is far from settled science. In fact I think there is VERY little ‘settled’ about it. My take on it for what it’s worth (nothing!) is it’s ‘real’ in the sense people do really suffer because of it but I would think there is something ‘behind’ all that. Like one for argument’s sake ‘healthy’ person could get bit and have no problems and others well they will have lots of problems. So at the very least there is added factor maybe we can call it ‘general state of health’ Dr Kruse might call it ‘redox potential’ but whatever a fancy word for a body and system well ‘charged’ as opposed to one running on an almost flat battery. I have put on here before his image of the ‘flat battery’…………….once you have that all bets are off.
Patrick, It sounds like Dr. Kruse is a good person the way you describe him. I agree that some people stay healthy and infection free and others don’t, and there isn’t always a good explanation. I find primal, in addition to other things, helps me to stay healthy. But I think sometimes people who seem to be very healthy in all ways get terrible illnesses. There’s just no guarantee of good health in life. To me, where medicine goes wrong is with a lack of emphasis on prevention and lifestyle choices. But what I see where I work is that the average patient who is diabetic or “prediabetic”, for example, just isn’t at all willing to make necessary changes. What they expect is a pill to fix their problems, and will continue to be over weight and follow a poor diet. The doctors know that lifestyle changes and diet are critical, but it is out of their control, they can’t force patients to make changes to be healthy. So they have to write prescriptions. To do otherwise would be unethical. Also, a lot of the financial incentives in the the way the medical system works are set up wrong. But just because a medical practice or treatment is unconventional doesn’t make it right. I go to my regular MD for any serious complaints first and consider his advice, but also investigate myself to see whether I want to follow that advice or not. Phil
Hello, Larry; Came home for a couple of hours to do laundry. Spending a few days in the bush. I read you are an entomologist.. I’m being lightly sarcastic when I say I never realized how many doctors we have on the blog…You being an entomologist know that 1/ it is believed only a few varieties of ticks carry Lyme disease. And those must have feasted on a small mammal infected with the bacterium,” Borrelia burgdorferi,” 2/ A quick search informs me that only a few cases of Lyme have been registered in Saskatchewan. As a scientist you know how helpful or not that official info’n is. I pulled up a couple of sites you should find helpful. If it was me I would consult with an MD who is a doctor of Functional Medicine. Like Janov and the 50 minute psych sessions, they do not have 15 minute appointments and take over hands on case management. They have a lot more tools in their , ” tool box.” and are considered specialists. No referral is necessary.
I stopped practicing Traditional Naturopathy when Naturopathic Medical Schools began graduating more highly credentialed Nat docs; and then came Drs of Functional Medicine. A well educated, i.e.: taught in Germany, Dr. of Natural Health who has Energetic Medicine electronic diagnostic equipment I am convinced by personal experience can do competent wide spectrum diagnosis. An hour with one of those docs is time well spent. It will be popooed by local docs but NASA has employed this with astronauts for years. An MD friend, Internist and urologist, trained, TCMD specialist,worked in the development of the equipment and therapies. I trust him.
Whatever the etiology of your symptoms, you are definitely ill. I suspect Patrick is correct when he says that a contributing factor to any onset of symptoms is our current condition. Enough stress can certainly disable our immune function. I am thinking, ” out loud,” , not contributing , ” I’m so smart preaching,” realizing you know all of this probably, given your education, better than I.
With your permission I will burn some sacred herbs/smudge. I don’t believe in hocus pocus in any of it’s titled incarnations, but the scent will keep your emergency on my mind. Being , ” electrical beings,” that at least cannot cause harm.
My sincere wishes for regaining health,
Dave hardy
I would like to know if this has reached you.
http://canlyme.com/ This was founded by well intended folks, and appears to be unequivocally reliable.
and:
Biology of Infection with Borrelia burgdorferi
Kit Tilly, PhD,a Patricia A. Rosa, PhD,b and Philip E. Stewart, PhDcorresponding authorc
Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
The publisher’s final edited version of this article is available at Infect Dis Clin North Am
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.
The spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi is a tick-borne obligate parasite whose normal reservoir is a variety of small mammals [1]. Whereas infection of these natural hosts does not lead to disease, infection of humans can result in Lyme disease, as a consequence of the human immunopathological response to B. burgdorferi [2,3]. Consistent with the pathogenesis of Lyme disease, bacterial products that allow B. burgdorferi to replicate and survive, rather than true “virulence factors,” appear to be primarily what is required for the bacterium to cause disease in a susceptible host. In support of this idea, the genome sequence of B31, the type strain of B. burgdorferi sensu stricto [4, 5], revealed that the bacterium lacks factors common to many bacterial pathogens, such as lipopolysaccharide, toxins, and specialized secretion systems. In this chapter, we will describe the basic biology of B. burgdorferi, and some of the bacterial components required to infect and survive in the mammalian and tick hosts.
Go to:Natural history of the Lyme disease spirochete
The causative agent of Lyme disease is a member of the eubacterial phylum Spirochaetes. Members of this group of organisms share a distinctive morphology that includes a spiral or wavelike body and flagella (organs of motility) enclosed between the outer and inner membranes. The spirochetes include several human pathogens, including Treponema pallidum (agent of syphilis), Leptospira interrogans (leptospirosis), and several Borrelia spp. that cause relapsing fever. Although these other spirochetes had long been known to medicine, it was relatively recently that the bacterial agent of Lyme disease was identified [1]
better
This is interesting. “In a 2010 study published in Science titled ‘Markets, Religion, Community Size, and the Evolution of Fairness and Punishment’, the psychologist Joseph Henrich and his colleagues engaged more than two thousand people in fifteen small communities around the world in two-player exchange games in which one subject is given a sum of money equivalent to a day’s pay and is allowed to keep or share some of it, or all of it, with another person. You might think that most people would just keep all the money, but in fact the scientists discovered that the people in hunter-gatherer communities shared about 25%, while people in societies who regularly engage in trade gave away about 45%. Although religion was a modest factor in making people more generous, the strongest predictor was ‘market integration”, defined as “the % of a household”s total calories that were purchased from the market, as opposed to homegrown, hunted, or fished”. Why? Because, the authors conclude, trust and cooperation with strangers lowers transaction costs and generates greater prosperity for all involved, and thus market fairness norms ‘evolved as part of an overall process of societal evolution to sustain mutually beneficial exchanges in contexts where established social relationships (for example, kin, reciprocity, and status) were insufficient.’
From the book ‘The Moral Arc. How Science and Reason Lead Humanity Toward Truth, Justice, and Freedom’ by Michael Shermer.
Larry I know you have bigger stuff on your plate but on that ‘study’ well I would question it or even it’s ‘motives’
25% of hunter gatherers share
45% of people tuned into ‘markets’ share
Therefore: Market people are ‘better’ or more ‘sharing’ than hunter gatherer people
Sounds more like ‘propaganda’ than a ‘study’ with all kinds of assumptions which leads to a ‘wanted’ conclusion and IMHO a pretty false one
Larry, check out this link re Saskachewen ticks….
http://www.suncountry.sk.ca/service/212/88/tick-fact-sheet-how-to-keep-your-family-safe.html
Hi Jo
Remarkable. Where on earth did you find this article?
Reading your postings I can’t help thinking that you’ve re-created your earlier life. Meaning sent away to boarding school, if I remember right. And how now, you go from place to place. Just reading it, is agonising, to me. Keep wanting to yell out…..stop. Stop hurting yourself…..Or am I projecting somewhat here?
This is so hard at times.
See you soon, I hope.
Tom
Larry – I do actually feel for you about your health problem(s).I am pretty sure I could help point you in a very good direction. But I don’t think here is the right place to do so. It could be pretty ‘involved’ but I would be quite happy to talk to you.
Are you going to the retreat this Summer? Will you be in LA then?
I will be back in LA on June 28th from the Kruse Cruise so I am pretty sure my head will be sprouting even more ‘ideas’ than usual lol! You and I have never hit it off so well here Larry (mostly my ‘bad’ probably) but as I hope I made clear in my little “Luther” fantasy I do like and respect you. Above all I see you as a sincere and truthful person who is interested in the truth.
Anyway I would be more than happy to meet up with you if you want to. Larry remember maybe ‘truth’ or ‘help’ sometimes comes in pretty un-likely packages and though I feel you don’t care for my ‘style’ very much, that’s fine I accept my style of ‘communication’ seems to lead to it’s opposite at least 1/2 the time. But I don’t like to see you suffering like this and feel it is only correct to ‘reach out’ to you \especially as I feel it would amount to more than just ‘support’. I don’t think you need ‘support’ so much as the ability to get back on your feet in good health again.
So anyway there I make my ‘offer’ it’s up to you of course what you do with it. I will be ‘gone’ on the Cruise from June 20th to June 28th. Anyway no big deal there is time enough and it would be really nice to see you in LA. I am not going to the retreat but you probably guessed that already.
> Larry,
> you as an entomologist, do you think there are ticks there ?
> my mom has gotten Lime’s and a cousin too, he still has some residual effects, but mostly only when he gets very tired.
> M
My feeling ‘entomology’ or not is the hunt for ticks etc is mostly a wild goose chase. I am following Dr Kruse on this basically he says so called “Lyme’s Disease” and so on are not the real problem. If you have pre-existing poor health in one way or another just about ANYTHING can set you off including a ‘tick’
‘Ticks’ have been around forever it’s true because of climate change etc they can be more of a problem but basically they are not the problem. Lyme’s Disease is a huge boondoggle mostly…………..if you read their magazines they don’t even know what it is, how to deal with it, what does it mean to deal with it etc etc. (I happened to find out a bit about because someone I know was ‘diagnosed’ as having it something I was quite skeptical about I can tell the whole story some other time if people are interested)
I am pretty sure someone will say ‘what the hell do you know’ ………………well not so much but i think I have a good FEELING of where to look and kind of know who is worth listening to. For sure nowadays it is very easy to end up listening to the wrong people or beliefs I would say it is a big majority. Modern medicine is a mine-field of mostly wrong beliefs IMHO………………..I would hate you to see you go down one of those roads Larry.
My story about Lyme’s not that it’s much of a story. David you can see it as an example of a ‘moving story’ if you like. Anyway it’s true
I am sitting in the office of a moving company I worked at for a while after the ‘demise’ of my own or the demise of my part in it to be more accurate. I get a call from the owner who is out doing a moving job. He says he got bitten by some bug, tick, whatever and he wants me to take him to a clinic. I got “Why” what’s the big deal or issue. Oh he says this could be serious it might be Lyme’s Disease (This is happening in LA not Pennsylvania or whatever)
I go “really” why do you think that? I was on moving jobs and though not really clear on it think I have been bitten by things many times. I never gave it a thought. He goes ‘oh no this is serious or could be serious’ I say whatever if you don’t mind paying me and more to the point paying them it’s your choice but I think it is just a big waste of time and money
No this is urgent it has to be done right away he already had got a replacement driver coming out, I just need to get over there as fast as I can and take him to the clinic. I pick him up and again ask him why are you doing this and what does this cost? He told me the ‘test’ was like $1100.00 so I go “joking’………….if they are charging you $1100.00 for a test the odds are pretty good they will find you have it (Lyme’s) I kind of mess with him on this the whole way to the clinic On the way back I say to him I ‘bet’ they will find you have it
Anyway he has the ‘test’………………I think little more of it but a few weeks later I see lots of “Lyme’s Disease” literature all around the office. I ask him what’s going on what was the results of your ‘test’………………He says ‘It’s positive, I have it” Oops should not have had that ‘test’
It was later I looked at some of this literature and I was struck by how iffy a lot of this stuff is, they mostly are guessing and actually making stuff up. They are full of statement’s like Phil’s above about stuff like “co-infections from some past tick bite”…………..this gives all kinds of loopholes and leeway basically they don’t know. But they DO know there is big money in all this I don’t know what happened to my friend the mover but I DO know the $1100.00 was just a small beginning…………….the ‘treatments’ was a LOT more…………….courses of drugs, constant ‘monitoring’ more ‘tests’. goes on and on and on……………..
> larry,
> oops, sorry for missing that you said your doctor thought there were no lyme carrying ticks, instead of no ticks .
>
> hope you find support there, and maybe a second opinion or well, any way you judge best, and wish you a good recovery.
> keep us posted please.
>
> to join in the Lyme panel, there is a lot of it and discussion about it going around here the last couple of years, as we have three times as many ticks now than we had say ten or twenty years ago.
>
> the latest findings here show it is crucial to go on with the treatment long enough if some symptoms persist.
>
> my mom had severe symptoms at first, but she responded very well to the treatment, and my cousin, I don’t know much about the details of how things went for him, but he either did not get enough treatment, or did not react well, or something else went on, but he started having paralisis at somepoint, which now luckily is almost entirely better, unless, as I said, he gets really tired, then some muscles might respond just a little less.
>
> he is a big strong young guy, and my mom is old, and has had a lot of illnesses.
>
> but as far as I know the medication definitely seems to be very useful, but I am no doctor, and tend to be like Phil, listen and explore, and not think in terms of black and white.
>
> it is interesting what you wrote about those baths you take, Larry, I used to think the skin did not let through most substances, but am finding out there too it is not black and white at all.
>
> something as harmful as fenol goes right through it, and I heard tickets, like the bill you get in a supermarket, often are containing high levels of fenol, specially those ‘shiny’ tickets, the ‘slippery’ ones, which since then I handle with great care, try not to touch them if possible, as it is such a toxic product the skin almost immediately soakes up. I always worry about those poor cashiers since, but well, not being an expert it is hard to judge on the level of reality of all the health controversies that go around.
>
> hope Europe does not allow any hormone meat to enter its territory, but it seems they are heading that way little by little.
>
> Larry, somehow I feel a bit bad for all of this discussion to snow under your comment, story, feelings, sorry if I add to the blizzard , wish you well, M
> ha, went tango dancing today, it had been months since I had done that, and it was nice!!
> caught up with my former dance partner, about how he is doing, and he told me six weeks ago they took out 8 centimeters of his colon, but the same week he was already dancing again!
>
> today I also had three or four (very sensual) tangos with my former tango teacher, which is always very nice.
>
> he invited me to a party in a few weeks, also with tango dancing.
>
> it is nice to dress up, for a change, high heels and all, nice swirly dress, good music, good dance partners, fun and good exercise, and good company.
>
> now feel a bit tipsy after only one glass of wine. should go out to dance more often again, glad I went..
> M.
>
>
Frivolity, dancing and imbibing, and doubly damning, on the sabbath ???? hah
anonymous is David. Damn Gremlins in computer again
this all screwed up again… change browsers I guess
Thank you everyone for your interest and caring, and for your helpful suggestions. As you can see, there are many hypotheses as to what might be causing my physical ailment. I can think of even one more possible cause that no one has mentioned yet on the blog. Obviously I can’t pursue all of them all at once. I have to do what I can to help myself, trust the experts who are helping me, mainly my doctor at the moment, and when he can’t help me move on to someone else. I’ll be so glad when someone figures out what is wrong. I’ll have one more visit with my doctor this week. I plan to also see a naturopathic doctor.
David, today when I googled functional medicine I discovered there is a clinic here and I emailed them a request for an appointment.
Tom, I do want to pull out of this and be able to travel and see you and my other friends at the retreat. Thanks buddy.
Patrick, I’m good with having a visit, seeing how you are doing and catching up. But I feel I know what you are going to say and where the conversation will go. If I am preached or lectured to, it will make me feel worse and I’d have to leave.
Good on ya, Larry. Follow your own lead.
Transient polymyalgia rheumatica. It’s a psychological relief to have a diagnosis. And a prescription, which I started to take at noon and am already feeling some relief. The prescription tapers down to nothing in a month. In midweek I’ll see a physiotherapist to help me with gentle physical recovery through exercise. Later in the week I’ll see a naturapathic doctor at a functional medicine clinic in the hope she’ll be able to help me lessen the likelihood of recurrence.
It’s been a nightmare of becoming more afraid and isolated as growing weakness, stiffness and pain became constant and restricted my life to minimal, bare essential activity moving through ever present muscle and joint pain. I couldn’t even escape the symptoms in sleep, because physical inactivity ramps up the stiffness and pain, and tossing and turning were so painful as to sometimes almost make me cry.
I look forward to a better sleep tonight, and a more normal life in a couple of days. I look forward to returning to exercise and normal living. Though they sometimes seem to daunting, I look forward to regaining health and having the chance to meet the challenges of life.
Good health is the greatest gift.
Larry, I’m so glad that mystery is solved, it’s not so serious, and that there’s a good solution. Phil
Hello Larry; Checked in with my friend’s mobile and read your news. The,” transient part,” is related To an ACTH deficiency. PR is most prevalent in women and, to a far lesser degree, in elderly men, who most always also have exceptionally serious accompanying giant cell arteritis. PR’s usually always upper body but in ACTH deficiency cases it can affect the pelvic girdle and the legs; although the symptom is weakness there not pain, if my recall is intact.
For medication I would suspect you were prescribed Prednizone. Rarely is it a short lived treatment except in the elderly. The risks associated with Prednizone are osteoporosis, and with any corticol steroids, the activation of dormant Tubercular Bacterium, which for safety sake was at least once construed to be present in all of us of recent Canadian ancestry. The same is considered true for Lyme.
Patrick, and you, make good points that life style behaviors can render us vulnerable to varmints we are carrying in us, like lyme. I get a bit of a chewed lip about the, ” myalgia’s,” family. I have one, Fibro; and I think, IMHO, its easy speak for, “… patient, you are in excruciating pain, we don’t have a clue what it is but we’ll trade some of these nice pretty beads for some of your wampum…” There are some meds that cut us off from feeling our symptoms. They don’t go away, we just don’t feel them.
Steroid injections into joints accomplish that.
One of the things I like about the MD’s who specialize in Functional Medicine, they really try to get to the heart of the problem. That takes time and hard work.
Honest GPs tell me none of them wants the tough patient, too many old folks, etc. Can’t make lifestyle bucks getting tangled up with a hard cases.
Well, got to hand this gadget back to owner. Will check your further good news when I’m back home.
You’re steering your own ship. I’m all for that.
cheers
dave
I just read this: ‘Seasonal, cyclical variations implicate infectious agents (e.g., viruses, Mycoplasma pneumoniae) as triggers….’ of polymyalgia rheumatica. That makes sense to me. A series of colds this winter eventually resulting in inflamed lungs/bronchitis but not bad enough to stop me from going to work, in my mind was the beginning of the symptoms. If back then I’d seen a doctor for bronchitis symptoms I might have thwarted the development of the polymyalgia. If I’d seen to it that I got plenty of rest, I likely wouldn’t have had the series of colds in the first place. Lesson learned, the hard way.
A song for all !
ox L.
😐
Larry, what a relief, eh…
Great to have myself back 🙂 🙂 🙂 , to have the chance to live some more 🙂 🙂 🙂 and the chance to give you a big hug at the retreat Jo 🙂 🙂 🙂
Larry, thank you in advance!! ☺️
> Larry,
> yes so good you have a diagnosis and a treatment, and a very good idea to also look for ways to prevent it from happening again.
> so glad too you could deal with it before taking off to the retreat, it would have been so hard if all of this had started while you were traveling!
> glad for you too the medication has an immediate effect.
>
> I found out things like this, unexpected ilnesses or pain, as you say indeed make us value how precious it is to simply be healthy.
> hope you can enjoy that fully again soon, M
> Jo
> I seem to have missed that comment from Leslie with the link to the song.
> when had that been posted?
>
> M
Margaret, Leslie posted link June 8th 8. 01 pm
Jo
>
> thanks Jo, I seem to have missed that on, and maybe some others, who knows, virtual space is full of Gremlins sometimes!
> i specially hate it when text messages on the phone do not arrive as my best girlfriend’s phone’s Gremlin causes, which causes a lot of useless waitning for replies and misunderstandings sometimes!
>
> Larry, you do sound a lot better already! Nice!
> M
I also didn’t get that link Leslie posted for some reason. Phil Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 13:48:19 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> ha Phil, we share a particular gremlin!!
> M
Margaret, Yes I’m afraid our PCs are both infected and may need to be quarantined and/or vaccinated. Phil
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 14:25:17 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
😆
> Phil, smiley
>
> M
Sorry to hear some of you are having trouble hearing the song I find so moving.
No visuals required Margaret.
I think the easiest way to access it is to –
google Youtube music – Shaina Noll- How Could Anyone Ever Tell You
L.
>
> yesterday I had a big argument with someone that assists me, by coming by once a week for about an hour and a half, to help me out with stuff that is hard to do by myself.
> it is her job, she is not a volunteer.
>
> we were going into town for the second time to get the mobile phone from my mom fixed, and I said something like let’s hope it works out this time so we don’t have to go there again. she replied with ‘yeah, as I won’t accompany you anymore in that case!’
> I thought she was joking but when I asked about it, she told me she meant it and gave me some crazy explanation about her view on the new ideas and regulations of her direction, and how she felt I should find another solution as after all it was my mom’s cellphone and blabla
>
> I told her I had tried to find other ways, and that this was urgent and very immportant for me, and that after all iI felt I should have the right to decide about my own priorities,etc, and soon the discussion escalated into a real argument, in which I even told her I felt I can’t work with her in this way, and would ask her office for someone else.
> by the time we were on the tram into town, I had asked her if she had any idea how unsafe this made me feel.
>
> she propposed to go and have a drink first to talk things out.
>
> it worked, she admited her communication had been very poor,and she should have gone about it differently, including me in finding a solution, which I do anyway all the time, as I had already planned several plan b’s for the cellphone problem.
>
> but what matters mostly to me is my feelings were right there, I was very teary, and could tell her about my fear and how vulnerable all of this made me feel, and how hard it can be to deal with what seems simple stuff to others etc.
>
> she thanked me afterwards for showing her my vulnerable side, and I feel it really helped, to open up our communication and understanding, and for me to explore what goes on, all the fear and sadness.
>
> then at night I had a dream which continued the feeling, I was in the middle of a group of people, kind of a walking dinner, and spotted a tall handsome guy who was blind, and thinking about how I’d introduce myself to him, telling him about my own disability, the feeling overwhelmed me completely, even though I stood right in the middle of the room, leaning on the table full of food, plenty of people around, but I allowed, or maybe did not have any other option, myself to go with it, crying and moaning in pain, full of intense grief, letting it take its course until I woke up, still breathing heavily..
>
> it is such a wonder of this therapy to me, that it enables me to process hard stuff like this even while sleeping, maybe some feelings are even better accessible in my dreams, like strong fear seems to be.
>
> today should become a good day, am again going with my best girlfriend to the kitten house, hurray, hopefully able to choose two of them that seem to enjoy being together, and that also enjoy being with me!
> the lady sent me some pictures from the last visit,probably me with a huge smile, with the tiny kitten comfortably installed in my neck and on my chin, looking at the world around it from that warm and safe spot.
>
> M
> had another baby wail feeling just now, set off by feeling sad about my lost cat.
> I am going to visit the kittens this afternoon, and noticed feeling restless and kind of unhappy again, so ended up laying down and taking a stuffed toy cat in my arms, immediately triggering a lot of sadness and crying.
> that imediately turned into baby wailing, almost purely physical expression of sadness, which went on for a while.
> interesting is that the chronic throat ache I have had the last months, or year, seemed to be exactly the same as the ‘lump in the throat’ feeling right before crying, and during the wailing the aching seemed to resolve bit by bit.
>
> i am sure not all of the feeling is processed but still, it feels good the process is still continuing.
> I will miss being around everyone at the retreat and while socializing, but at least my feelings still find their way out..
> kittens this afternoon, exam next week, more studying for next exam in august, and in three or four weeks finally those cuuuute kittens here!!
> got my mom’s cellphone fixed too yesterday, so she will have it back this weekend, to her relief, and ours..
> M
> Leslie,
> in my case, and I think also in Phil’s, we simply did not get the e-mail with your comment, so it was not the link but the entire comment that got lost in virtual space somehow for us, ox M
There was a saying in Ireland that I used to hear growing up. It was
“You can take the man out of the bog but you can’t take the bog out of the man”
For some reason I think about this………………..
Sooooo!!!!! Who’s the man with a bog … inside????
Don’t be shy … just let us know to whom you might be referring.
Keeping it all bottled up inside is not good for the psyche..
Jack
Jack – I agree it’s not good to keep it all inside but this will have to wait for another day (busy) and don’t feel like getting into it now. But thanks for asking I’m sure at some point I will……………
That complicated ??? … I would have thought one word would have done it or, least two words. 😉
Hi
HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was going through some old emails and found this article. It’s in Hungarian, but if you put it onto Google Translate, you’ll get the gist of it.
I was stunned to read Nussbacher Melitta’s mum telling all the 5 year old kids to say good by to her daughter, as they are leaving for Romania, and THEY WILL NEVER EVER SEE HER AGAIN. („Gyerekek, búcsúzzatok el Melittától, mi pár nap múlva elutazunk Izraelbe, búcsúzzatok el tőle, mert soha többé nem fogjátok már látni.”)
I have often talked about leaving Romania, leaving Europe, and never ever going back. I’ve often wondered if I made this up, or was there some truth to it. Made it up because I was in so much pain already, that leaving Europe was to alleviate my “old feelings” of me wanting , but not knowing what from and why.
” you will never ever see Melitta” again. I never ever saw my childhood friends, for an awful long time. Caught up with my class mates after 54 years, last year.
My old feeling is, that I will never ever get what I want.
I will make a pact with the devil right now, if I could go and sit next to my mother in the nursing home, even though she is dead.
MUM. I WANT YOU! I WANT YOU NOW!
Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s unbearable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WANT HER RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
Seems so hard for you to let go even a little bit.
Wouldn’t, ” letting go, ” be a thinking, voluntary action ?? Perhaps discouraging a connection opportunity ??
Being as this is a blog about a feeling therapy, I had assumed it was understood i was talking about letting go emotionally, not intellectually. Yes, i suspect a voluntary, thinking letting go would be a walking away from the feeling, but it would never occur to me to do so, and so isn’t a part of my lexicon.
In was only as in response to your comment to another person about how they handle things. It was a question not a judgement. How are you feeling, Larry; physically….???
Just a genuine general question made in the spirit of conversation, Larry, and not meaning any personal reference to anyone; If I continue to suffer an event emotionally for an extended period wouldn’t that mean, in Primal terms, that I have not actually mourned the event ?? Or that the emotion is not about the current event at all, but rather brought up by it ??
My reason for checking out, and participating, was looking for others’ insights to help me make the most effective use of self Primaling. That doesn’i quite express it but as close as I can come. I don’t know about others but I can go down non productive paths repeating chasing a familiar feeling as a defense. Just being sorry for myself. Avoiding the feeling.
Reading Jack’s book I am trying to be aware of my language in my self speak, separating ,the ” feeling,” from the ,”emotion,” connected or not connected to the real feeling/event. And practicing it in my writing should help. Thanks, Jack.
I had completely forgotten Dr. Janov making that point.
Oh, that;s me, Larry, as I hit post and your comment came up on my email for delete, I know what I was thinking. I read your comment to that person as asking, why they can’t just let go. It made me think, letting go isn’t a conscious choice; but only occurs once the provoking feeling has been felt to the point of resolution. As you say this blog is about feeling therapy.
Actually, I didn’t ask Tom why he can’t just let go.
I was connecting with him in feeling how hard it must be for him in that he can’t yet let go emotionally even just a little bit. I was communicating some sense of understanding of the depth of the trauma he has to deal with.
I self-primalled before I got to LA. Self-primalling helped me for sure, but on my own like that it was easy to go off the rails and become moored in a suffering with a feeling but not actually feeling it, an act out.
Soon after starting therapy, having real feeling people around me, especially the therapists, helped me to know the difference for myself between having a real feeling and chasing a feeling. A real feeling has a life and painful truth of its own that I want to run from, not chase after. The real feeling happens if I let it after I learn how I try to prevent it, and it opens me to uncomfortable truth. For me a real feeling comes in the act of chasing life. Coming home after work and breaking down because I hit a wall and can’t see myself going on with my life any longer is a feeling I want to run from, not chase after.
In my experience, the act out happens if I chase the suffering and wallow in it and don’t want to face the truth, which happened before I started therapy, but not since. Facing the truth sometimes feels impossible to do but is the best thing I can do for me, feeling it bit by just bearable bit. It seems to me it takes many, many eruptions of feeling a very difficult pain, over years, before some sense can gradually be made of it and finally feeling it out to the point of some resolution. My guess is for most of us some feelings are too horrible to approach and resolve, unless we have a long enough time to slowly chip away at it.
I’ve had to reconcile it’s what’s left for me. I’ll never be able financially to return to LA.. To quote Barry, loosely, I was able to build a bit of a tool box while there. There is no one to buddy with here. Everyone else who did primal has moved on, geographically.
> another amazing fact of nature that just impressed me:
> the monarch butterflies fly from North America, even Alaska, all to a small forest in the hills of mexico, some more then 3500 miles, and gather there, to spend the five winter months, with as many as 500 million butterflies, all hanging around in certain trees to share their warmth in the night, enjoy the sunshine, and drink at small rivers. they don’t eat at all during those five months, and search a mate.
> then the long flight back home.
> only the energy reserve they must have in their tiny fragile bodies, well, not that fragile to do more than 10 000 kilometer back and forth, on as good as an empty stomach, it is so impressive!
> on top of that they are gorgeous, they were filmed in close up, flying, in slow motion, wow, I stood next to the tv so could see it,fabulous!!
> these things for me keep making life worthwhile, natural earth being so beautiful and fascinating..
> M
Margaret – what is also amazing about them at least from what I read is that no one butterfly makes it there and back. They breed and die off either on the way there or back or while there in Mexico. Apparantly the one that arrives back is typically the ‘grandchild of one who left But they still ‘know’ how to find the place they are destined to go to and back. It is pretty amazing and scientists are having a real hard time figuring out how they do it.
The latest theories is it’s some kind of combination of light and magnetism. The light supposedly ‘bumps’ up electrons in their eye and that then ‘senses’ the earth’s native magnetic field. Pretty exotic stuff if at the same time very ‘natural’ one writer speculated they might ‘see’ the magnetic lines of force sort of the way they are shown in science books. If we can see light why not that they can ‘see’ magnetism.
It’s my understanding it’s really because they’re genetically wired to receive FOX NEWS… Thorry, Pat, tha devil made me say it… dave
Yeah they keep flying to the ‘right’ and ‘listening’ to Bill O Reilly and scientist are trying to figure out how that combination somehow brings them home…………….
thanks for that, Pat….
and all the time they are singing “Get Back”…………..
who’s this in need of a shave unknown wearin’ a mullet of kintyre hairdo ??
Here’s a goodie: hits me in the tear ducts for some reason{
I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
You look lovelier tonight than I remember
I’m so glad I got to see you once again
I’ve enjoyed just sitting down and reminiscing
But I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
So you say you’re happy now, you’ve found a new love
Tell him, I said, he’s a lucky, lucky man
No, I don’t think I’ll have time to see his picture
I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
There’s so much more between us than this table
All those years, all those dreams, all those plans
Guess you know without me sayin’, I still love you
But I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
There’s so much more between us than this table
All those years, all those dreams, all those plans
Guess you know without me sayin’, I still love you
But I’ve enjoyed as much of this as I can stand
Songwriters BILL ANDERSON
but i like porter wagoner’s version
Read more: Porter Wagoner – I’ve Enjoyed As Much Of This As I Can Stand Lyrics | MetroLyrics
I’ve sung that while wailing on my old J45 and cried my heart out more than a few times at break up time, hanging on to hope, pledging to just hang around forever. Sad, eh ??
That’s the undeserved obedience my mom wanted, too.
Post Primal I sang, ” So long, farewell, verpiss dich adieu; Adieu, adieu, fick dich ins Knie, too…..” Fa la la la la la la la la…..
Waylon sang, ” I hope the train from Caribou Maine runs over your new love affair,
So you’ll walk the floor from door to door,
And pull out your peroxide hair,
Then I will have sweet, sweet, sweet, mental revenge…..
All on the road to getting free, and not having any emotion about them anymore.
Real time pain like knowing you’ll never see, hold or talk with, your child again, I wouldn’t want to expunge.
loss….
A thought occurred to me. It might have been my murderous Texan uncle who sometimes played country music at his house. I don’t remember it right off the bat, but this thought just struck me. If that was my introduction to classic country music, that is a mind-blower. I gained a fondness for that kind of music when i was older, when my cousin sold me an 8-track tape player and a Hank Williams tape. Not sure how young i was at either of these memories. Anyway, just saying.
Reply
Nope. Science shows love of real Country Music is an indicator of a superior brain.
I agree, Porter Wagoner’s is the definitive recording; released 1962 as a single and on his ,” The Porter Wagoner Show,” album in 1963.
Below is another bit from this guy Jon Rappoport. Margaret seems to think me going on about stuff like this is aimed just to hurt her whereas in fact it is an attempt to help her our and hope she does not repeat history with her new kitten(s). Some things can really be just what they are or seem to be not some ‘projection’ or whatever of something else. Like Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I do not like the way she has tried to turn me into some kind of ‘bad guy’ who needs banning and ignoring etc etc. But whatever I can take it………….it takes more than that to bring me down or shut me up lol………………..this goes for others too (they know who they are)
“The claim of preventing disease before it occurs is one of the strongest propaganda efforts of the global medical cartel. It is used to pump up and justify all other medical druggings and procedures and diagnoses. It is “a banner of pride” flying on the medical flagship.
Vaccination, through its toxic effects, is an attack on what would otherwise be a much healthier early childhood in many countries around the world. In short, if wellness and health staged a strong universal comeback, it would expose the lie that “everyone needs doctors all the time.” That egregious and repulsive lie is one of the cornerstones of modern medicine.
Based on these reasons, how confident and trusting would you be, when this medical establishment has gained direct access (by needle) to every individual bloodstream in the world? ”
(including animals – my comment)
Patrick, You might be interested in this vaccination forum: http://www.curezone.org/forums/f.asp?f=74 I found it just now for you, and it’s probably a better place to debate this topic. But I wonder why the vaccination issue catches your attention so much? Why do you care whether Margaret’s kittens are vaccinated or not? Phil
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:00:46 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – and why are we alive? and why does anyone care about anything? and why do you always try to steer things down some imaginary ‘correct’ track, and what’s it to you? why why why…………………two or more could play that game………….
To try to answer your question I listened here to Margaret for literally years detailing the constant it seems ‘illness’ of the cat and after a while I start to wonder about it. I think a bit about it, I read some more and I gradually form conclusions. I try to ‘share’ them with her but she seems to think it is just some ‘attack’ on her way of doing things
And it is a ‘disagreement’ with her way of doing things that’s true and when I see her eyeing up more cats it honestly kind of gives me the creeps…………….more misery and more sickness will be coming down the line for them…………….so excuse me Phil if I have an ‘opinion’ on this and right now I don’t feel like checking out your link as it just seems some effort to ‘side line’ me in favor of what……………………where we can all just talk about our ‘feelings’ in the abstract or without context. That makes no sense to me.
‘Feelings’ are our way of relating to the world not something in themselves. The ‘failure’ of primal is very much connected with this in my mind at least……………….feelings as the ultimate commodity as a friend of mine recently said…………..feelings just for the sake of themselves mostly disconnected from anything ‘real’………………
Patrick, I just don’t get why you go on and on about vaccinations. My own theory is it started because you saw someone talking it on the PSG forum. In general the idea of vaccinations probably triggers people because authorities make them mandatory. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20378) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
No Phil – your ‘theory’ would be wrong. I glanced at the PSG forum for a short time and never saw anything about vaccinations there. Why make it some mystery about ‘motivation’ …………what ‘motivates’ anyone to do anything………….it became an interest of mine really through a series of accidents and I tried to follow it for whatever reason (probably because it ‘interested’ me – how circular is that)
I am pretty much ‘through’ with it but I have formed certain beliefs as a result. And I reserve the right to express them as I see fit. I am not interested in joining any anti vaccine movement, I don’t have kids and really it is almost of ‘academic’ interest to me. Plus I never did well with ‘activism’ a fault in me really I am more of a ‘thinker’ or some might say ‘dreamer’. But that’s me but I am gratified it seems to have made a difference to my brother in Ireland and it seems to give him some strength in dealing with the almost relentless pro vaccine propaganda he has to endure. And this is only as regards animals. Animals of course make the perfect ‘victims’ they don’t talk back and nobody really cares if they get sick. Children are a close second but people care about their kids and can see the holes in the argument at least sometimes.
But with animals at least in the EU they are adding vaccines constantly and again I remember I grew up on a farm there with NO vaccines and NO illness to speak of. You may consider this ‘anec-dotal’ but to me it says a lot. It seems appropriate the vaccine promoters talk about ‘herd immunity’ We are being treated like a herd all right so maybe that bothers me. I think there is no need to wonder about my ‘motivation’ I could just as easily wonder how come you are NOT ‘motivated’
The end run of the commercial, MGM back lot factory food animal game makes us the victim, stuffing that e coli contaminated, hormone, antibiotic, beta agonist, nitrite, drenched flesh into our gut.
Opinions are dangerous uttered in the form, ” now believe this as the real reason,” Phil.. Your , ” take, ” is not something I would take to heart. I have spent decades educating myself on Allopathic Medicine, including vaccination. It’s as unclean as the Vatican Bank.The top Merk scientist recently gave a statement to the FDA about the hidden dangers and lies about efficacy surrounding vaccination. He then resigned. All Big Pharmas Co’s have been convicted criminally in US Federal Court for, lying, fudging, concealing, medical larceny in the past 5 years. Allopathic/Conventional Medicine and Big Pharma was a vicious adversary of Primal Therapy, painting Dr. Janov as an unqualified deranged egotist. The thought of patients not buying $ 300.00 wkly appointments and a closet full of psychotropic drugs, “till death they did part, did Not Impress them Much..”
” Iatrogenesis,” death caused by physician, is the leading single cause of death in North America. The drug companies own the private hospitals; the hospitals own , ” private, ” off campus, medical clinics, who own the doctors, according to a neurologist friend of mine. Now he may be wrong. I’ll suggest he ask you.
David,I’ve spent decades working in healthcare and have my own views but I’m not reallyinterested in debating on this. I see you feel strongly about it and that’s fine.Phil Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:14:50 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Quote; your last paragraqph:- “Feelings’ are our way of relating to the world not something in themselves. The ‘failure’ of primal is very much connected with this in my mind at least……………….feelings as the ultimate commodity as a friend of mine recently said…………..feelings just for the sake of themselves mostly disconnected from anything ‘real’………………”
Nuerotics: like yourself … and for the most part 99.999% or the human race don’t have a clue to the WHOLENESS/TOTALITY of what a feeling is. You are prize on this very blog at DEMONSTRATING just this.
A FEELING bereft of it’s EXPRESSION is precisely what PREVENTS real communication with the rest of humanity. That was the great discovery that seemingly you failed to grasp. Hence you are forever trying to explain this whole phenominon in that left lobe inside your head with phrases like:- “The ‘failure’ of primal is very much connected with this in my mind at least”
For fuck’s sake man. It’s not figure-out-able in the MIND. That is where you missed the train, bus, boat or, what you will.
By your own admission YOU FAILED with Primal Therapy. For an unuterable failor you are pathetically stupid to try to explain the failor of THIS THERAPY.
Shit; you are so fuicking irritating to me on this blog and I suspect many others. But seemingly you are ‘out to prove somehting” …., though you NEVER say what.
Jack
“Failure” is an emotive word, nobody like to ‘fail’ and for me to admit I ‘failed’ at PT well actually I think that takes courage if I might say so myself. I have always had the need to ‘succeed’ so it’s very hard for me actually
It is also very much the mark of a cult to stifle and direct back any criticism as some moral failing of the questioner. Janov has done this forever you being one of his loyal followers even if he keeps you well clear of his ‘inner circle’ apes that all the time.
Luckily for me I have found a way not to be only a ‘failure’ at something that basically the way it is done could not ‘succeed’ so I do not feel bad about myself however much you try the ‘moral failure’ shtick.. Call someone a ‘failure’ and it should shame them into ‘compliance’ that’s your (and Janov’s) rotten little trick. I am glad to say I have pretty much freed myself from that kind of cult like obedience
Life is better outside the box especially the primal box.
If “failure” is an emotive word for you … then hang in there … accept you failed at something …. just as I can and will accept that I failed in business. The real problem with your discourse is that you do not fully admit to failure BUT are so fucking adamant that Primal Therapy, Arthur Janov, possible me, and uncle Tom Cobley, have ALL FAILED. From a reluctant admitter of FAILURE …, you are prize at denoting other’s failures. Where do you get the brains from to make that assumption. I suspect Eireland: especially those that want to go to the sun, but have bethought beforehand to do it night !!!!.
It’s an arrogance on your part that isn’t gaining you any friends, as it comes across to me.
Next what do you know about “CULTS”? Fuck all … if my reading of you is anything to go by. AND no-one, to the best of my understanding, is trying to get you to “comply” with anything. I personally am delighted that you go on and on with your silly reasoning. It give me great fun (a lovely feeling, by my standards), that I express with a variety of expressions … laughing out loud, getting irritated by your comments to a Primal Therapy blog, incredulous that I hung around you for as long as I did, and sometime get pissed with you.
My take on you is:-.”to say I have pretty much freed myself from that kind of cult like obedience” That’s not what it looks like from where I’m sitting. But then who the fuck am I ????
Jack
Also if someone even uses the word ‘mind’ and it is ONLY a word…………….you jump on it as proof of a ‘head trip’ how weak and stupid is that. Should I say instead of my ‘mind’ my ‘system’ or my ‘body’ whatever it is only a word. I saw you doing the exact same thing to another guy on the PSG group constantly berating him for ‘being in his head’…………where are you in your ‘gonads’ I thought Primal Therapy could ‘cure’ that so are you a ‘failure’ too primal therapy was supposed to ‘cure’ being gay, but the way I know you you came to therapy gay and ended up gayer. This is a serious question “Does that mean you FAILED” to use you own emotive and manipulative word. You are just another full of shit primaller……………..
I humbly submit this site; http://www.greenmedinfo.com, , which my MD, ND, and CD, friends subscribe to
for education on health including vaccinations. I recommend taking out a Professional Membership.
Cornered by a reporter hoping to extract a negative quote about Primal Therapy, ie: , ” Why did
you quit Primal Therapy?
John Lennon said, ” I didn’t quit, … …some of us also have lives to get on with.” He went on to exalt Primal Theory. Finally ,exacerbated by the relentless nitwit, he said well except for me no longer needing drugs, alcohol, or a Maharishi, maybe I didn’t get much out of it.
The reporter didn’t have the brains to realize he’d been pissed on. I didn’t think it wa so subtle that the average person would have missed it.
now , my story, my story, come on, come on…..
Why do you care that Patrick cares, Phil ? We all participate here by choice.
We all have companion animals or friends who do. We all likely have relative children. As humans we should be concerned. Vaccinations are overstated in need and efficacy and understated in risks according to the independent science I read and qualified medical friends I respect.
Vet medicine has become one more rip off industry. Once responsibly utilitarian now it is a designer status symbol. I use no vet services, my cats and dogs are flea free, tick free, and worm free. They reach 20 – 22 calendar years of quality life. No decrepit joints, no skin problems, no psychological problems worse than mine.. My MD friends don’t vaccinate their kids; I don’t buy preprepared foods for myself nor companions..
And I don’t abide direction to preprepared scripting.
David, I think we all already know how Patrick feels about the vaccination issue.I just don’t know why he wants to hammer us with his views on this repeatedly. I haven’t noticed that anyone has a strong interest in it. I’m seeing his anger inregards to the issue, not so much that he cares.
I tend to get triggered by this kind of preaching. I have experienced it in the past and it feels like I am not being listened toand treated as a person. I don’t have to agree on this issue.I have looked into information on vaccines many times in the past and am satisfiedthat they are very useful and backed up by science. I don’t know much about theiruse for animals. I see that you don’t agree andthat’s fine. I do think that something like the vaccination forumwould be a better place to engage in these type discussions, where people are activated about it.
But actually there appears to be something personal about all of thisIt is probably as Margaret says, just something to use to get back at her forwhatever reason. Patrick’s whole reason to be here seems to be to attack anyonewho has an interest in primal, and contradicts him in any way. Phil
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 00:24:16 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Read my whole post Phil. Vaccines are shit and that truth is out there to be found. Monsanto says ROUNDUP is good, but it’s poison. Only sheep follow the carpet baggers.
David, I’ve read your whole post. You come across as a know it all.Also, there loads of good material in your posts for fans of conspiracytheories. I’m just not easily convinced on this type stuff. It spreads aroundas easy as shit hitting a fan and mostly worth as much. Phil
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:34:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Thanks, that tells me who you ARE. not very intuitive and not worth much.
David, I see, if I don’t agree with you I’m not worth much. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20404) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
Not at all. But when dirt slinging is the vehicle that tells me all I need to know. The inability to string thoughts or spell speaks to a very childish level of social functioning.
On the other hand it brought up a feeling I get no where with, the umbilical cord wrapped around my neck, and the thought I need to be still and not struggle.
But the adult me says I survived it when it was in real time, and I won’t let it allow myself to be tricked into a state of powerlessness.
The take I have has been formed by a lot of study and experience and the education and experience of a lot of highly academically qualified people I know I can trust. They and course work in advanced statistics taught me the value of thinking.
I only had 39 years in direct service health care.
You mean you didn’t even make it to your 40th year?
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20405) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
See, that’s where you live Phil, in the place of reptile brain nasty. That s what you show of yourself. Name calling is the lowest denominator. Go for the throat or dress it up it’s visible.
Sound like my two surviving children at age 9 and 6 trying to achieve dominance in the relationship . When does it degenerate into, ” Mommy, David’s being mean ?”
an aside, are you an Aussie ??
David, I haven’t called you any names. It is your righteous attitude in the discussion which bothers. Obviously there are many others with decades of experience who think vaccines are a good thing. Many people I have worked with and studied under. But I do respect that you have a different opinion. The only thing I did say is that you come across to me as a “know it all”, an expert on many subjects. Meaning I must totally agree with you. Even you recommend some organization we should join. What’s up with that? Phil
The work of the Institutes which I tossed out as, look at what they do, I thought might be of interest because they heal severe child brain injuries, There is some overlap with Primal Theory.
My nature is to never poke anything down anyone’s throat. But I have over the years become more comfortable with what I believe.
I find the ganging up on Patrick unsettling. And predictably Margaret jumped to your side to say , ” Good , give it to him.”
I stopped the unequal expectation that I should always be nice and always make excuses for those who were not nice towards me. I wish them no ills but I chose not to associate with them.
“And above all, being conscious means treating people and our children humanely so that they grow up enhancing the culture, not destroying it.” Dr Arthur Janov.
That what I believe is, to you, “.. shit into a fan,” and worth just that, ” shit,” I’m a know it all, full of shit. You could not be striking further from the truth. And really doesn’t matter. But how would that be a help to anyone ? I had enough of that abuse from my family of origin.
David, My comment about “shit into a fan” was in reference to what I think about most conspiracy theories, if you read it. My point is that those kinds of theories and accusations are easy to make, but much harder to prove. And they easily spread around. I think you have been personally insulting to me, saying I’m not intuitive, I guess because I don’t agree with you, also that I’m not worth much, for the same reason. Maybe these particular topics hit close to home for you and are triggering. Is that what it is? Otherwise it’s hard for me to understand. Phil
Conspiracy theories is a matter of opinion except the obviously whacky ones. There are particularly astute minds who question the spoon feeding we often get. Over a career span of 50 years I have had the good fortune to be in the company of many of them as a listener. Just because a dominant group that controls the message asserts their interpretation is the right one doesn’t make it so.
I could postulate many maybe’s, perhaps’s, but I’d be only guessing; my family certainly played the game of me having a vivid imagination or inventing mal treatment when I confronted them or told someone.
Being an unknown to people who seem to know each other well, I identified me by my life experiences. Perhaps that was unnecessary. I don’t call doctors, doctor, that is what they do not who they are. I never felt comfortable with anyone addressing me by anything but my given name. Titles appeared ostentatious and conceited to me.
Patrick is fair game for anyone and everyone. Everyone can attack, and he is supposed to take it or be grateful; whatever; and then overlook it. But he’s held to the letter for what he says,or what someone thinks he says. Jack, too, is disrespected at times about his interpretation of Primal Theory. I read his book, a few times, and it appears he has a good handle on it.
I am at a familiar point right now where I lose the thread of argument; stop trying to justify, own up; I’m in trouble again and if I don’t be quiet I’ll be in worse trouble, shut down, comply, disappear.
So I’m going to sign off.
Patrick knows I am unequivocally certain about Primal Theory and that Dr. Janov is owed a great debt for beginning the therapy. I also think and have expressed it is Dr. Janov’s failure that Primal Therapy is not available in every private and publicly funded mental health service in the modern world. Neither Dr. Janov nor Patrick has tried to eviscerate me for my opinions
A lot he says seems a lot more real than some here.
>
> Patrick,
> you are such a hypocrite, so it is all just honest wellmeaning interest in vaccinations that brought you to out of the blue lashing out at me, just when I was so very sad about my cat, accusing me completely unrightfully for ‘having tortured’ her, wishing me I’d really feel like crap, and that I’d feel extremely guilty, etc.
>
> it is not about the vaccines, and not about the cat even, it is about you, and your need to dominate and be admired, and the nasty anger you acct out when people don’t bend to your (crazy) ways of thinking.
>
> David, before you form an opinion, please go back a few months and read how this all came along.
>
> Gretchen knows me for many years, and stated on this very blog what a good ‘mommy’ I had been for my cat from the very start, and backed me up completely in all what happened.
>
> it is such a shame what actually was a story of connection and care, that it got so distorted by this sick and crazy hateful person to fit his own need to be the victim, poor victim of me unrightfully feeling attacked, ha, it would be funny if it would not be so very very sick.
>
> somehow this is not about vaccinations, but probably about fear for closeness and hatred to anyone expressing what Patrick refers to as ‘weakness’..
>
> I probably should not post this as in my opinion all Patrick wants is attention, and this is more than he deserves, but oh well, I don’t give a f really, whatever anyone says to him, it is useless as every time it gets too close to a painful truth, he chickens out from looking at himself.
>
> it is all about vaccines, is it, and about being interested in it, but when Phil offers a genuine forum about it ha, you are such a pathetic phony, Patrick.
>
> if you’d be honest, I would not mind you being scared or angry or whatever, but you are not, and that is one thing I can’t come up with any excuse for, specially as you combine being a coward with being mean.
> so again, goodbye Patrick, I do not buy any of your shit.
> M
Quote “Gretchen knows me for many years, and stated on this very blog what a good ‘mommy’ I had been for my cat from the very start, and backed me up completely in all what happened”
First off just because Gretchen ‘said’ it does not make it true. People ‘say’ all kinds of things and it also based on what they are told You look for support and comfort better look at your ‘results’ before you repeat them again.
How soon until we will hear about ‘cat suits’ and ‘creams’ and ‘shots’…………….you are really good at lashing out at me I see very little looking at your own results
And you now want to make it seem I was piling on on you at your moment of grief NO quite a bit before that I was questioning all you were doing with the cat.
And then you went and KILLED it……………that was some kind of final straw for me. You KILLED your beloved cat quit all your re-writing of history about your moment of grief. You did it yourself
Now you ask Jack and Larry how they are doing……………..looking for more ‘support’ maybe? And you can “Goodbye” me all you like it does not make me go away. I know it’s a primaller habit to cut people off …………….not a good habit at all but somehow justified in the kind of inverted reality a lot of them deal in…………….
unimaginable loss…i caught a glimpse of it and it looked black…darkness
> by the way, Jack, are you ok? it has been a while since you wrote here.
> and Larry, how are you? does the medication still make you feel better?
> M
Margaret: Thanks for your concern about me, but other than slowly dying (aren’t we all) I’m surviving reasonable well. The reason for not responding recently, there was little that “tickled my fancy” … other than Patrick’s vague reference to someone, then not saying what or who and using far more words than it would have taken to write who he was referring to. I consider that redundant … but then I figure Patrick loves to put things off, to the point that it will get forgotten … hence no reason to explain himself … I suspect
According Thouless, that’s a manner of “crooked thinking” (not to say that I myself am not prone to the same syndrome).
One question for you Margaret, whilst I’m at it. Does your software for reading/listening to comments give/describe to you those smiley or sad “emoticons”? My reason for asking was I thought to place on the blog for you and others some of the emoticons … for amusement. I find them great … meaning that a picture can replace a “thousand words’. Also it will give me an idea what WordPress accepts and what it does not.
Jack
Feeling better Margaret. Symptoms almost gone for now. Making a priority of getting exercise and building strength back up. Saw a naturopathic doctor today to help me in my objective, and to maybe get some idea where I went off the rails and hopefully forestall a recurrence or ongoing symptoms. It’s nice to have an experienced, trained, informed partner on the same wavelength as me to help me through this.
I have some personal ideas as to how I could live my life in a more healthy manner, one being to occupy myself less on the computer and more in other aspects of life. I can sometimes use the computer too much like a drug that eases the pain of loneliness at the expense of not addressing the loneliness.
The loss of Noreen caused me grievous injury, and there is more hurt yet to deal with, but I have a sense that I’m entering an acceptance and regrouping phase, a readiness to accept the brutality of losing her and to want to make the most of what I have left. This health scare is almost like a small encapsulation of how losing her shattered me but if I can address the root causes of the pain I have a chance to heal somewhat from it and perhaps reshape my life into something still worthwhile to me.
Not to cut in here, but your loss of Nora occurred prior to my entering the blog. It seems insensitive to ask, but what do you mean by ., ” loss.”
She died unexpectedly 5 1/2 years ago. She’s the only deep real connection I ever had with someone. I was a pretty emotionally crippled guy when I started therapy, and still wonder now how I will make it without her, but am moving forward.
my reply will be inadequate. you, poor, poor man; my guts are in a knot for you. Sometimes I wonder how we go on.
I don’t feel hard done by, David. There are a lot of people who life isn’t fair to. I’m not looking for sympathy, just understanding. If your guts are in a knot for me, that tells me you have a lot of personal stuff to deal with.
One human caring for the suffering of another is not valid in and of itself ??
I agree my vault of stuff is vast. Your loss obviously trigger my own. Thank you
I don’t believe that becoming embroiled in someone else’s suffering is useful to anyone in the long run. I think empathy, understanding and support to help work through and out of the suffering is helpful, but the sufferer is really ultimately on their own in having to work through it. I appreciate you caring, David.
“And above all, being consciousness means treating people and our children humanely so that they grow up enhancing the culture, not destroying it.” Dr. Arthur Janov.
I agree, Larry. One of the gifts I received from Primal Therapy was being better able to separate my feelings from those of others. It improved my professional practice, let me more comfortably to be there for others, and circumvented the burnout from, ” becoming embroiled in the feelings of others.”
Clearly my parasympath innate personality made looking after others, and remaining invisible, a comfortable fit. Looking after myself equally as well was abandoned. It is still foreign to me and the reason for many of my circumstances.
.
I notice you are an intelligent, capable guy. Makes me wonder why after all this time you are in somewhat dire circumstances. Your statement that you have difficulty looking after yourself explains a lot to me.
My pension plan got, ” raped,” by our Canada Life Administrator. Unbeknown to us Canada Life was convicted of frequent trading in a Toronto court. In 2001 I received a cheque from the Ontario Securities and Exchange Commission for $ $48.62. I inquired of our Director what it represented. He’s a good guy, but has a record of giving answers without being informed. He said it was a small dividend that for some reason could not be rolled back into the pension plan and joked, cash it and go to dinner. I learned a year later about the legal action, and then that by cashing the cheque I had given up all entitlement to any further legal recourse. My plan into which 1/3 + of a million dollars had been deposited was worth $ 128,000.00 when I retired. In Nova Scotia provincial regulations lock in registered pension funds and determine how much can be withdrawn annually. I am permitted $ 5,120.88 per year. My own fault, I should have been monitoring my account. I knew earlier retired staff received more than 40 k a year and concluded that would be my pension. Stupid guy I am. If I had 10 mill I’d likely give it away anyhow.
In 2002 myself and 4 other senior staff became extremely ill from multiple toxin exposure, asbestos, sewer gas, stack gas and a host of molds. Our group life policy provided for Disability payments. We consulted a lawyer who concluded an employer negligence action against the agency would fail.
> my cat already was ill with an auto-immune disease when I got her as a kitten.
> without treatment she’d have died, in a painful way, but a very dedicated vetrinary clinic helped to find a way to get control over the disease, and we had almost ten fine years together, before she suddenly got ill the last few months, only three.
> even during those months, the ‘torture’ of the care I gave her, with the help and advice of the vets and their dermatologist, were actually creating a very deep bond of trust between me and my cat, who always allowed me to treat her, and more so, stretched out her neck as to facilitate me putting on the (natural) cream.
>
> for three months I dedicated all my energy to try to save her, and those were beautiful months despite of being exhausting as well.
>
> my only priority was for the cat to feel ok, not to feel ill or scared, to feel safe.
>
> you say I ‘killed’ her only because she got diabetes, that is a distortion of how it was.
>
> she had a wound in her neck, hterefor the creams and the protective suit, and two shots of antibiotics.
> the medication the vets prescribed against the severe allergy and autoimmune reaction, normally would have worked, and then a urine sample finally showed why she kept losing weight and why the wound, despite healing on one side, kept slowly spreading to the other side.
> she had developed diabetes, indeed probably as a result of ten years of allergy medication.
> regularly I had tried to dinimish and stop giving it, but the only way turned out to be to give her a small daily doses.
>
> but that allowed her to live ten happy years.
> finding out about the diabetes on top of the other problems, made it clear to the vets, and to me, the cat would only get really ill, and start to suffer.
> now she was just on that point where she was starting to feel bad some of the time.
> the last weeks she peed on the couch and on the bed, sometimes three times in one night, but I was never cross at her, simply changed the sheets and washed and washed, sheets, blankets, couch covers, and comforted the cat.
>
> I was glad to do so for as long as it took to make her better, but the verdict of the added diabetes closed of that possibility.
>
> trying to cure the diabetes with daily blood taking and shots would really have been a crazy form of torture in this case, with no chance and a lot of suffering for the cat.
>
> saving her that meaninigless suffering and al the fear, saving her another trip home for a few more weeks just for my own peace of mind, and then probably having to take her again to the clinic, while she would be miserable and scared, would have been utterly selfish.
>
> we were there for the urine sample, not having expected the goodbye would already be for that day, although the last weeks I had spent a lot of time just sitting on my balconee with the cat on my lap, feeling it was the harvest of her life, and sharing the beauty of our affection for each other.
> am crying right now.
>
> all your nasty interpretations do not affect the deep and true feeling I have of having done what is right, of having had a truely loving bond with my cat, that was mutual, and only got deeper those last difficult months.
> so she sat on my lap at the vet’s, trusting me,and when the vet said she truely felt euthanasia would be the right thing to do, for the cat’s sake, she only confirmed what I had felt coming for weeks, but now with a clear diagnosis, that gave no room for hope to make her better, on the contrary.
>
> my priority was to save my cat from being scared, at all cost, so her this time being quietly on my lap, offered a way to make the extrelenly painful decision of having to let her go, in the most peaceful way possible, her remaining on my lap, one shot to gently put her to sleep, still in my arms, and the second and final shot only after she was completely gone, but still while I was holding her.
>
> it was the most loving hting to do for my cat, the most respectful one, she deserved it, and I would want the same thing in her place.
>
> actually being very ill, I once asked my own mother if she’d help me with wuthanasia if iI’d get worse, and she promised me to help me when I would come to that point.
>
> that felt like the biggest expression of her love she ever gave to me, and immediatly apeased my mind on that very moment.
>
> all your explanations about vaccinations contain truth, but are really beside the poijnt in htis case, as the cat was already vaccinated when I got her as a kitten.
>
> and anyway, I have merely done what was the best thing I could do with the knowledge I had and with the advice and assistance of several dedicated vets.
> my last vet, the dermatologist, cried when she gave my cat the last injection. she too had really done all she could all that time.
>
> so regardless of what is right or wrong about vaccinations, you just used it as an excuse to hurt me, as I was not even part of the pro or con and merely listening.
> I even mentioned I had adressed my vet about it, and she had agreed there is overvaccination now, and a lot of them go against that.
>
> so this is the reality of the situation, which you refer to as me ‘torturing’ and ‘killing’m my cat, picturing me as some kind of monster.
>
> i have no idea why you tried to hurt me, out of the blue, apart from maybe being triggered by all the stories of concern and caring.
>
> you wrote on several occasions how scared you are of closeness, but that is no excuse whatsoever to try and really hurt people here that show their vulnerability and talk about love.
>
> you have done so with others in the past, calling them ‘weaklings’, well, I only see one of those here, a very bitter one too.
> M
Margaret – that is a good explanation of all that happened. Of course you know an awful lot more about it than me…………………..so I accept what you say here.
On the other hand I was making more ‘general’ points and I feel you take them very ‘personally’ but hey nobody’s perfect not even me lol………….
> Jack,
> lately I noticed my software mentioning ‘smiling face with open mouth and tightly closed eyes’, or ‘face with neutral mouth’, or ‘frowning face’, for example..
>
> they add a little, but I actually prefer words that express the feeling somehow..
> but well, I am curious to hear more emoticons being described, smiley..
> M
Speaking of using ‘failure’ as some mark of ‘moral weakness’ hers is something from Janov’s blog a few weeks ago. Any comments of mine in brackets
“I have no desire to hang onto some concocted theory that I adore.(oh no??)If it does not make the patient better then why hang onto it? (Why indeed – that’s what a lot of us have been wondering??) This is largely what happened to all those therapists who wanted to improve on our theory. (Your own or others?? They added drugs to the mix, then hypnosis, then cognitive and so on ad nauseam. All because they never saw the central truth of feeling. (Intellectual failure) And, I assume, because they never underwent their own feelings” (Slam……………..moral failure……………case proved except not just a cult leader insisting he knows it all)
What is interesting here is he seems be referring to some of his OWN ‘therapists’ though that is not completely clear (deliberate?)………….but what I notice it is not enough to ‘disagree’ with them though we can only assume if they were trying to ‘improve’ the therapy they must have felt it NEEDED improving…………….but the last sentence is the classic primal slam the slam that is just a disguised personal insult and only has power if you accept his own kind of formulations………….and the kind of cheap shot slam practiced by primal true believers. it is some moral failure they could not get to their feeling blah blah. And this seems to be applied at least partly to his own therapists the ones who dared to think they could ‘improve’ on what he was doing. How could you improve on something to quote Jack is not only mankind’s greatest ever discovery but the greatest discovery that WILL EVER be made. Note the foreclosjing of the future itself which is not surprising if you only ‘see’ backwards or do other major things in life ‘backwards’ Jack to quote Dr Phil ‘how has that worked out for you’??
I have explained this story repeatedly.
> stil, in the middle of my grieving, you spoke about my torturing the cat, and how you hoped I would feel extremely guilty and that I would feel like crap, if you think people should not take stuff like that personally you are even crazier than I thought, or a hundred times blinder than I am.
> once more you brush off responsability and avoid looking at yourself and your true underlying motivs for your behavior.
>
> so be it, I merely wanted to give a bit of reality to David, who has missed a lot of the preambles.
>
> don’t know why I still bother really, me talking about my mother bothered you, me talking about my cat does, anything that is not about you and how smart you are seems to do so.
> your constant need to patronize and then bully people who don’t buy it, well, as the song goes it don’t impress me much.
> nothing more to say about it, as it is always more of the same.
> M
That song was written and performed by a in Canada born First Nations gal, Shania Twain….
Oyy. I spent way too much time on the computer tonight. The consolation is I do find writing on this blog and interacting with you all to be a worthwhile learning and growing experience.
I’ve experienced a friend from the past ceasing to contact me with no explanation, and last night I dreamed that we met and I tried to get answers from her. The dream story becomes less clear, and I feel every thing she is saying makes it my fault. I wake up feeling suicidal. I feel that I somehow make everyone leave me in real life, there is no hope (for full healthy close relationships). As I write I cry…it’s my parents I see leaving me..and leaving me with the feeling I’ve done something wrong, it’s my fault.
I described the old feeling there. Now that I’m away from that, it is so that in real, current life, I feel more connection with people I meet now, than a few years ago, having done a lot of work in therapy. The feeling that it’s my fault gets in the way a lot, but I try not to act on it. I have much more of my self back!
That seems like such an important insight. I know how hard you worked to get there, Jo. And I’m struck by a difference in you in that you’ve shared these two paragraphs, when in the past you’d only write a couple of words if anything.
> David,
> you say you like this blog as you learn a lot from the interaction.
> maybe you could go back then and see it was actually you startin off with the insults, and not Phil. you were the one coming up with the comparison about only sheep following the carpetbaggers,which immediately struck me as offensive.
>
> what you blame phil for, about dominance, feels like sheer projection to me, as on this I feel you and Patrick have a lot in common.
>
> I know I amnot gonna be liked for saying this, but well, this is how it comes across to me
>
> what you said about Phil is out of line, believe me, , and tells me more about you than about him.
>
> and before you ask me why I care, I know him and respect him, and well, feel you are very judgamental and rude too much of the time, which I don’t like.
> can’t do much about it, but it seems to explain why you make so much efforts to side up with Patrick.
>
> oh well, now I probably have two ennemis here, can live with that, won’t keep me from saying what I feel like saying.
> Phil, I liked all you said.
> seems like we have two persons intending to shove their opinions down our throats now, hammering away and insulting everyone that shows disagreement of any kind.
> M
Not much to say Margaret but to an outsider it seems judgmental is a common feature here common here. And encampments. So it’s ok for one cliche to say another is full of shit, but an answer to that is unacceptable ??
Oh, I didn’t say I was learning anything here, Margaret; Jack was so kind as to send me his book and I like it. Reading people in feeling is of value. Occasionally reading another’s process in the old Primal Newsletter would bring up a feeling. I enjoyed following Institute therapists I respect. I do have questions though as why well primaled people continue to need to participate in lashing out at others and note that it will not be tolerated from some, followed by piling on.. ” And above all, being conscious means treating people and our children humanely so that they grow up enhancing the culture, not destroying it.” Arthur Janov.
Most days, I have no need to answer back. On the day that something hurts me I do. Primal gave me back the right to feel.
,” sheep following carpet baggers, ” refers to the public, including me being influenced by the marketers who have something to sell. My study indicates that the pharmaceutical industry is also one of those, creating their, ” truths, ” to prompt panic and compliance.
> Jo, that sounds good, M
> David,
> of course you can’t help only getting a partial view of the situation, having joined us recently.
> I can assure you there is no ganging up against Patrick going on, everyone here is actually wellmeaning and basically nice.
> we all gave Patrick a lot of support, for years now, but literally everyone was insulted by him, with no apparent reasons, or even viciously attacked, including the therapists and the therapy in general.
> so what you perceive as ganging up is just the sum of individual responses to what I could call a provocative and very hurtful attitude Patrick regularly shows, and which he consistently refuses to take responsibility for.
> but he is good at adopting the victim role, I must admit.
>
> like you I only try to react when I feel angry or hurt enough, or something deifinitely seems not right.
>
> we all tend to look through the coloured glasses of our unresolved old feelings, but if I may say, try not to form your opinions about people here too quickly please.
> you seem to have a certain view about how I am that seems more to depend on your past experiences with unpleasant women, than actually with who I am, as really you hardly know anything about me, but have repeatedly made some negative or sarcastic remarks.
> just mentioning, no big deal.
> M
Margaret, I’m not going to be affrontive. We are all as , ” good, ” as we can be. Most of my best friends are women, and I work in volunteer work now mostly with women. I am constantly posting that we need to tap into the wealth of women intellect and intelligence in the political sphere, because men, well… And I know they see me as, ” … just the sweetest man.”
I have an intuitive thing, the worst thing about intuition and guessing is I have at least a 100% chance of being wrong. But it’s there. And sometimes it goes off when it senses manipulative behaviour, or pack behaviour, and it brings up a feeling in me. Some percentage of that belongs to the past I am sure.
Happy times to you.
At times my computer causes posts to come out in a linear pattern 2 words wide. I don’t know why.
This is apropos of nothing…………..well not actually. I was listening to KPFK this morning and the subject was – guess what vaccines. They are at the point of passing a new law here which dis-allows any ‘personal exemption’ that a parent might want to claim vis a vis their child like they would say ‘I don’t believe in vaccines please don’t vaccinate my child’ Anyway the new law if passed would do away with that exemption so then the child has to be up to speed with all vaccinations or he/she can’t be at school. or day care or whatever
But what I found interesting is the guy there who is now an ‘activist’ explained how he got involved. He had a son, born seemingly fine, no problems smiling happy communicative etc ‘Ahead’ of his peers even in any development tests they did. He is a new parent they are anxious to do everything right but somehow have maybe already missed some vacc’s so at 5 MONTHS yes 5 months they go in to get ‘caught up’ with vacc. Child is given several vacc’s that evening is screaming constantly, crying all the time but worse having epileptic fits. This goes on for days they get some medication to calm him down. He seems to come out of it seems to be close to being his old self
They still want to do everything ‘right’ so they go in to see their child doctor. Tell her they want to go slow with the vacc. tell her they are concerned and afraid and want to wait until the child is say a year old before they give him any more. Says the doctor kind of reads them the riot act, they are ‘endangering’ their child etc sort of ‘threaten’ them. Again though not convinced him and his wife want to do the ‘right’ thing in spite of their instincts and well unfortunately you can maybe guess what happened.
Child goes into uncontrollable and constant epileptic fits. Goes on and on hundreds a day and has not stopped since. The child is 13 now and a total lost case, mental ability of a 6 month old etc constantly suffering especially the fits.
Anyway so what you might say……………….but I just had a ‘connection’ I have seen so many of these TV programs over the years about children with constant fits. These programs typically were about medical marijuana and how it helped to reduce the fits, calm them down etc etc. These parents are very motivated to get the right kind of marijuana not the kind that get’s you stoned there is another kind instead of THC it has a different kind of oil
Anyway my ‘connection’ was now……………..THAT’S very likely the culprit in these fits vaccination that is. I have kind of idly wondered WHY are these children having this horrendous problem, presumably they were not born with ‘fits’ what happened to cause it………………..I believe I know mostly now what the reason is. Big deal you might say but I think it is…………..
I just read this, in regard to polymyalgia……
“If you are dealing with inflammation then get a comprehensive evaluation to look at what is perpetuating your personal fire.
Lifestyle: Remove adverse mechanisms (Stress, Over-exercising, Poor Sleep, Blood Sugar Dysregulation, Poor Social Behaviors.) Lifestyle factors are huge, the stress response triggers immune marker IL6 which turns on the immune pathway TH17 which is the fast track to Autoimmunity.
Lifestyle: Restore beneficial mechanisms: Create conditions of love & appreciation, keep positive attitudes, maintain proper exercise (training to a maximum heart range; i.e. Peak Fitness exercises), have adequate sleep, restore blood sugar balance, and facilitate healthy social interactions. All these things promote natural systemic opioids which pushes the immune pathway TH3 which reduces Autoimmunity.
Dietary Support: Stabilize blood sugar, remove food Autoimmune triggers, and promote intestinal integrity with proper flora and nitric oxide and glutathione pathways. Include fermented foods and supplement appropriately as may be needed.”
I’m not doing so good in the “create conditions of love and appreciation” department. I’m getting nowhere with that. When it comes to ‘facilitate healthy social interactions’ I’m in a deep, dark valley. I’m crying. My childhood was in the black. My need for conditions of love and appreciation and healthy social interactions came up against immovable cold granite.
There is nothing here for me. I’m too alone. I feel doubtful I have the strength or ability to change it. This therapy is awful because it can’t fix it. I don’t know which way to go with my life. No matter where I turn, the way looks empty.
Awful as it is, it’s a relief to let myself cry and see there was nothing all those years when I was small and helpless, my childhood needs met by cold granite. My ability to create conditions of love and appreciation is severely stunted. I sense that deep connection with someone would improve my life and health dramatically, but feels like an impossible dream. This empty, lonely void feels impossible to get out of, and not worth living.
How could I have endured it as a child! I guess I didn’t. I guess I lost some of me, lost part of my consciousness, so I could exist and hope things got better. My consciousness is tortuously awakening now, acknowledging what I needed but never got. Now I have to tap into truth, into reality, into more me to learn how to take better care of myself. I’m all I’ve got now. I had a lucky streak for a couple of decades with Noreen in my life. Couldn’t have made it this far without her. Wonder whether this is as far as it goes.
Larry, It sounds like you’re in a real difficult spot. I hope you’ll be able to fix things the way you want them. Just a few more weeks until the retreat, I look forward to seeing you there Phil
It’s not the sobbing that needs to be stopped, but all the anger, hate and venom.
The sadness and any accompanying tears are relatively harmless to all … except those that subliminally are triggered by their own sadness and grief and refuse to express it by way of tears.
The ultimate of repressed anger is violence … which eventually lead to wars. BUT we neurotic human are reluctant to grasp that. Que lastima.
Jack
Barry told me about John Sarno’s book “healing back pain”, back in 2002 ish, when I had excruciating pain in my lower back..I had to rest in bed most of the time and it just didn’t improve. The book helped tremendously, in fact I was ‘cured’!
Larry postings got me remembering all this, (and we talked about it yesterday).
It’s a worthwhile approach, IMO, and I’ve just bought the latest book “Pathways to Pain Relief” – 21 Jan 2013 by MD John E. Sarno. The forward itself is worth reading.
Hello, Jo; searched Sarno and found 4 books, the last published in 2006, The Epidemic of Mind Body Disorders. If you’d be so kind, What is the title of your edition and the ISBN #. Thank you
david
David, the title is exactly as I wrote it above; I bought it on Amazon UK. Ive no idea what the ISBN is. Having ordered it, it lets you read a few pages via cloud (I have the Kindle app).
Just found the ISBN 978- 0- 615- 75785- 8.
me again; just found a PDF free download for his book, or anyone interested;
Click to access Healing%20Back%20Pain.pdf
that”s the book I read back then….good that its a freeby now!
If Barry says Sarno is a credible read that’s good enough for me.
When I went to the free download site I found testimonials, like Jo’s; this one to Dr Sarno’s latest book, ” The Divided Mind. The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders.”
“My Mother died last year. We didn’t have a good relationship. I was at the grocery store this week trying not to see all the people buying Mother’s Day flowers, cards , and gifts. Is it a coincidence that I was in my bed crying on Mother’s Day – using my Ten’s unit for the pain? I already knew that I had a lot of unresolved issues with myself and my life, but I really thought I was getting them nicely under control. ( under control, bury the feelings and burn the map therapy… david’s brackets.)
Because of “The Divided Mind” I feel a weight has been lifted off of me.
I will be buying a hard copy of Dr. Sarno’s book. This is an abridged version – I want to read every word.
I know I sound insane. I remember seeing John Stossel on 20/20 saying Dr. Sarno cured his back pain. At the time I thought it was the power of suggestion.
Well- I definitely suggest you give this book a chance to change your life. What do you have to loose – except your pain?
I don’t care if the pain comes back. I feel empowered to deal with it.
Happy Mother’s Day – I have to go have a conversation with my brain now.”
This is a danger zone for me. That next book , the one that has the head trip magic word I can utter and I’ll be healed. Weird instead of the old feeling of exhilaration about another new chance I’m filled with dispiar, streming hot taers, and th at thing wrapped aroud my neck
Jo: I read the introduction to the book “Mind Over Back Pain”. by Dr. John E. Samos and had a few observations of my own.
In brief:- my own history relative to the said ‘syndrome:-
In my early 20’s I started a “Voice Training Class” in order to pursue my ambition to become an actor. These classes strayed from the excepted norms of voice training in that it was all based on diaphragmatic breathing for the EMOTION. The man that thought it all up was Irish named Herbert Scott. Sadly; among the Drama Schools of the time no-one took up his method.
After gaining access to “the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London I was recommended by a fellow actor to the Frederick Maithers Alexander Technique clinic in London. He, Alexander was asked if anyone could learn his technique by merely reading his book “The Use of the Self”. He claimed “Yes; providing that one could read” A very provocative statement. I went for session for over one year. It’s main principle was a head, neck, back, relationship due to poor child rearing habits. I greatly benefited from this technique, and to this very day and at age 82 still do not have a belly. No six pack abs, as of the last few years but certainly a straight back, neck and head that has never given me any back or shoulder pain, or ensuing migraines.
Last week on the PBS TV channel I encountered a woman (who’s name eludes me as of now) who was discussing to her audience the need for good posture with respect to health.
All those methods and techniques in my life have contributed to my physical health. Then in 1973 I read Arthur Janov and ever since I feel I have finally connected all the dots to what I feel now, is real health. Not that I have perfected any one of them … as yet !!!!
In reading Dr. John E. Sarnos’ introduction I agree that he found a cause … but NOT the reason for the cause. To and for me Janov was, and is, the only one that went into the total history demonstrating where and why it all took place in the first place. I feel the medical profession as a whole (though slowly getting closer to ‘the reason for the cause) is:- to quote Janov; is only interested in the symptoms and thence looking for cures. I do feel that Dr. Sarnos went a little deeper, but (by my reckoning) not far enough. I contend that the trauma of childhood and or womb-hood creates what is commonly know as “slouching” All the above methods and techniques attempt to rectify that slouch, but fail to go to the real fundamental cause of WHY it all took place in the first place … though I do not doubt that any one of the methods and techniques mentioned, can bring about relief. Whether that can become a permanent state of affairs, is perhaps questionable.
Jack.
I’m glad the Alexandra Technique helped you Jack.
John Sarno’s Healing back pain book certainly helped me. He does actually acknowledge the source of rage.
His last book, ” The Divided Mind. The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders,” further evolves his thoughts. Very forthright on how medicine has missed the boat. Janov comments, “Appropriately enough, Sarno correctly recognizes the feeling component of this early repressed material ,( pain manifestations,) is typically severe early rage in, “The Divided Mind – The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders.”,
David: I have not read any further of Sornos’ works, so I am not cognoscente of the development of his thoughts. What is somewhat distressing to me, is that all these new theories, without recognizing the previous works by others. I find it more than a little disconcerting that there are many that use other peoples work and theories without acknowledging their (others) prior work. Maybe for several reasons, but to promote a theory that has already been delineated shows the lack of learning and perhaps an attempt to cash in on a prior theory, tweaking it to appear ones own.
Janov, as I read him, did not do that, and acknowledged Freud, and Reich. That to me was honest. It was my critique of Stone in “Cure by Crying”. He acknowledged the existence of Janov without acknowledging his work, theory and/or research. That happens a great deal in the world of science … principally, as I see it, to reap profit for themselves. For me, the reason:- unless and until we abolish capitalism … we’ll continue down this destructive route .. until our very own destruction … and perhaps of all life on the planet. It is “PROFIT” that is evil … and unnecessary, to my way of thinking.
Jack
Apparently, Dr. Sarno, born 1923, Professor of Rehabilitative Medicine New York School of Medicine; developed his theory in the late 50’s early sixties and wrote papers in the early 70’s; 1st book,82. His work and theory was not welcomed nor accepted into practice by 99.99% of doctors he said.
The testimonials are impressive. Help is help wherever it comes from. I get more than a little more interested, too, when the establishment trolls come after someone the same as they have Dr. Janov and Primal Theory over the years. Dr. Sarno has released the 4 books to free downnloads, but the Divided Minds download has been abridged by the publisher, so I’m going to order the book.
David: I meant also add:- way way later than F. M. Alexander.
Jack
I stand scolded and corrected , Sir.
That’s OK David … just two hail Marys and then you will be absolved of most of your sins. The rest you can keep … for the time being 🙂 🙂 .
Jack
David: That’s still later than Janov’s major work and discovery.
Jack
I find this comment pretty ironic. Janov wrote the book on claiming how ‘unique’ or ‘new’ his theories were. Then he wrote another ‘book’ not allowing anyone to take from him, co-operate with him etc etc. Hence his irrelevance among the general public and the scientific community. Which is a great pity I think as his ‘theory’ had it’s good points but just not as good or as ‘unique’ as he seemed to and amazingly still seems to think I guess kettles call pots black all the time. The nature of a kettle ?
Janov ‘borrowed’ liberally from all around him but tried to put HIS stamp on it all. So R D Laing or Carl Rodgers or Abraham Maslow or whomever were NOWHERE according to him and then he could not even seem to co-operate with his own ‘followers’ or even his own ‘therapist’s’ if we follow his recent blog. He is an interesting case of someone who could not seem to find his place either with what came before and came after.But then he was ‘neurotic’ and I would agree from my own experience that is a deep problem. Still if he was just ‘honest’ about that a lot of problems would have been avoided. But ‘honest’ is not something i would ever call Janov. To me he has a VERY low bar in the ‘honesty’ department. Which is a big problem in any walk of life.
I find it ‘rich’ that you of all people refer to the “kettle calling the frying pan black”. I read all those psychiologist that came after Freud … but none (to my way of reckoning) made a great discovery and formulated a theory that encompased it. They formed a theory and developed a practice around it … without, I might add, making any discoveery. Merely an idea … in their heads.
Geeze:- that real ‘crooked thinking’
Jack
You ‘read’ all those psychologists that came after Freud.?? My guess would be it would be more ‘honest’ to say you read none of them. Have you read R D Laing or Maslow or Rodgers? But I think one reason you ‘adore’ Janov is you see yourself in him…………………..maybe starting with a big lack of honesty Second would be seeing yourself/him as an ‘undiscovered genius’ third and related to second it nobody ‘get’s it’ but you and him. There are others but I don’t want to get too personal.
This business about ‘reading everything’ reminds me also how you said you ‘thoroughly investigated’ the whole basis of HIV medication……………again my memory/impression was you didn’t even read the label on the drug package or the insert even explaining the logic of those drugs. But you love to ‘create an impression’ of the thoughtful intellectual who at the same time is not a ‘head tripper’ (have it every which way which reminds me of your ‘hero’ also) so I could see one reason you would like blogging there is no checks of any kind and whatever you say is ‘true’. Except when it isn’t which seems to be most of the time
I ordered Sarno’s latest book, The Divided Mind.. Thanks for the info Jo.
> on his visit here yesterday, my brother saw the big picture of me and my cat in the university magazine, and read the interview.
> when he heard I also have it on line, he asked me to e-mail him the link, and just now he sent me a mail telling me I should be proud of myself and of what I achieve despite the disability.
>
> his words mean so much to me, I was not sure about how he would react, with Primal therapy being talked about and everything, but we really grew so much closer together the last few years,it is heartwarming.
>
> our mom is getting older, increasing ailments and a very bad memory, but she goes about it rather gracefully most of the time.
> it is exhausting though, as she repeats the same questions over and over, and gets more and more deaf, so we have to yell the same stuff over and over without losing our patience and temper..
> but we agree on that we will do everything to keep her in the place she lives in now, a house from 1778 with a large garden and big trees around it, as she really loves plants and birds and squirrels and the donkey and carthorse in the back..
> she’d probably wither in a nursing home, and get in trouble because of her stubbornness and strong will, and occasional big mouth..
>
> but she does still make us smile regularly which is good.
> M
Your description of your mom’s home is lovely. She is fortunate to have children supporting her ability to remain there. What is her age ??
> David,
> she will be 85 in november.
> M
> i tried reading the pdf but failed to get into the text with my screenreader.
> but am pretty curious by now about Sarno, sorru if I misspell, and his approach of pain and how to heal it.
> can you, or Jo, who has actually applied it, maybe give me a (brief) summary of the approach he stands for, and how to deal with backpain etc?
> please?
> M
Margaret, it’s 13 years ago and I don’t have “healing back pain” any more to refer to…
Simply, though, find the rage in you to really rage at the pain.
Larry and David are saying that the latest book of John Sarno is “The divided mind”, which I may get.
Jo
>
> Jo, thanks, M
It has been suggested that I never read any books about Psychology. I have no reason to lie, since I read psychology for pure interest … initially amazed that the mind could be introspective about itself. I had a friend, also interested in psychology and eventually got a degree and licence to practice. She was primarily a Jungian. I tried to turn her onto Janov and bought her a copy of “The Primal Scream” She was not convinced.
From my mid teens I was always concerned to better myself in life. It was perhaps what precipitated my initial interest in Psychology. However, in my mid twenties I was introduced to F.M. Alexander and took sessions and was greatly pleased with the results and my mother also acknowledged that it helped me. Since Alexander started his practice in 1925 (the time Dr. Sarnos was born) he certainly preceded anything that Sarnos came up with. Briefly:- his principle was the use of the self and the relationship of the body via head, neck and back … noting that he himself, and most others, slouched and lacked good posture. He refrained from using the word posture, as he felt it misled the natural position the body should take, and that it should be an effortless process. He termed that “None doing” and “Let it happen” meaning that if we gave the body a chance it would self rectify.
In or around 1966 I experienced a very deep and disturbing encounter after a penicillin injection at a London Clinic. I recounted that incident on both my books. I had no idea what it was and I knew the doctor in attendance at the time, also knew nothing about it, and appeared as scarred as I was on seeing me in that state. On reading the introduction to “The Primal Scream” some seven years later; it made total sense to me and from there-on-in I was a convert to Primal Therapy and Primal Theory. I re-lived an event in my very, very early childhood that felt I was dying, and believed I was indeed in the process of dying.
What I feel about psychotherapy in hindsight was that Freud was the very first to postulate a theory relating to what takes place in the mind. From my prior reading of most of the psychologist since Freud, I was convinced that none of the psychologist made a discovery. Janov, at the event with Danny Wilson; stated he had “no idea what had taken place” It was only after trying out what he’d done with Danny, on many other that he was eventually able to formulate a theory to encompass and explain what had taken place. The discovery came first. The practice on others and getting the same or similar results came next; only then did he, because of his 17 years of practiced in Freudian therapy, was able to formulate a theory. All the others I read, formed a theory first, then began a practice in the hopes of demonstrating the validity of their initial theory. Janov did it in reverse order. It is my contention that since the advent of Freud’s theory (Ego, ID, and Super Ego and later the “Interpretation of Dreams”), no other valid theory based on ‘experience and practice’ has been proposed, until Janov.
Of course, Freud was not the first to come up with the notion of studying the mind and mental illness. That goes back centuries.
Lastly I do acknowledge that through the internet and Wikipedia; it is easy to research the history of Psychology. I do confess to get the dates of the psychologists since Freud, I did resort to the internet.
Briefly:- the history since Freud; though not totally comprehensive:-
Freud Sigmund 1886 EGO: Self esteem or awareness of self ID: The subconsciousness of ones instincts SUPER EGO: Self absorbed, compulsiveness Early 20th century ‘Interpretation of dreams
Adler Alfred 1911 left Freud’s theory; to form his own school of thought, accusing Freud of overemphasizing sexuality
Jung 1913 The collective unconscious
Wilhelm Reich 24 March 1897 – 3 November 1957) The Orgone box, Character Analysis, and body armoring
Moreno Jacob L. 1921 – conducted the first large scale public Psychodrama session
Rogers Carl 1942 published Counseling and Psychotherapy,
Fritz Perls 1951 – The seminal work of “Gestalt Therapy:
Skinner B.F. 1953 – lending support for behavioral psychology .
Maslow Abraham Harold (1943) Hierarchy of needs
Ellis Albert 1955 – began teaching the methods of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.
Laing R. D. 1960 – published The Divided Self which saw mental illness as an expression or communication Stated that it should be parents that are punished for the actions of their children
Fromm Erich (Author of The Art of Loving) Meditation
Eric Berne 1964 “Games People Play”
Jack
Different subject but maybe a similar phenomenon: Christmas of 1995 my younger daughter brought home from University her then current big love. A really nice, bright kid, with the enormous advantage of that in addition to be doing graduate work he was a real ” Bluesman”, a very old soul in a young man’s body. I uncased a couple Strats and found I wasn’t even close to his league.
I decided to gift him with a wonderfully documented,” History of R & B and Rock ‘n’ Roll.” I, ahem, perused it for a week before wrapping.
I was taken that beginning in the early 50’s the same movement was occurring in New Zealand, Australia, Britain, the USA and Canada. No Internet, no, “Smart,” phones, AM Radio, no TV promotion in those early years and trade was not what it is today.
Yet what was essentially, ” Black Music,” birthed in the US was happening everywhere, among musicians who were unaware of what was happening on other continents.
Musicians feeling and thinking the same way without ever having talked to one another.
It opened up a new train of thought about possibilities regarding human evolution.
(Not always, because it seems very sophisticated, “Rap,” was happening in China 500 years ago.)
Jack, I don’t know why anyone would would assume you didn’t read psychology books.I like your brief history of the subject since Freud.I’ve read loads of psychology books myself. Not so much out of interest but as an attempt to get to the root of what was bothering me. When I was 21 and feeling suicidal I finally decided I should give the idea ofdoing some kind of therapy a chance instead of killing myself. I happened to get a hold of a copy of”The Primal Scream”. It made a big impact on me and I reread it over and overa countless number of times..Then I went to the local library and spent many hours there comparing primaltherapy as described in the book, to every other method I came across in otherbooks. I probably read all of the books on clinical psychology in the library,not necessarily cover to cover, but focusing on points which seemed importantto me. Nothing else but primal made much sense to me. I didn’t see how focusing onmy thoughts could change them and I didn’t see how trainingnot to be anxious would work, for example. Freudian based therapies didn’t have anyappeal either. I came across “Going Sane” by the founders of The Centerfor Feeling Therapy and I gave that book particular attention, as I remember it,but it didn’t seem sensible either. Primal therapy seemed to offer the onlychance of achieving the level of change I thought I needed. I imagined myselfbasically becoming a totally different person with the therapy. I was really crazy because I made the decision to do primal therapy solely based onwhat I read in books. I didn’t discuss the decision with even one person. In fact, I never even told anyone that I had a lot of things bothering me.Asking for help from anyone I knew was out of the question for somereason. I just wasn’t something I did. I didn’t talk to anyone at the Institute. I sent in my biography, got accepted,signed some papers, and committed myself. I was able to pay for it with the moneyI earned working during high school. I didn’t need to ask for something from anyone. I was very lucky that there was the New York Institute close by, otherwise it probably wasn’t going to happen for me at that time. I think it would have been too muchfor me to try to get it together to go to LA.I’ve continued to do a lot of reading since then on psychology, but I read a lot ingeneral. It’s, no doubt, one of my defenses, how I distract myself and have doneit since childhood. Phil
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 21:52:48 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil; Very impressive story on your rout to therapy. Yes, I too find it a little er … condescending that one would insist that I never read any books on psychology. However, I do see it as a problem for the person stating it. Surely; I am my own best person to know my own history. But I am not overtly bothered by it. I like that about myself … even though it might be because of my own conceit.
It did occur to me writing that comment, I was stating what most already knew. but hey hoo; I wanted to write it, if only for myself. If there was some defensiveness on my part … so-be-it. I’m not perfect … yet 🙂 or maybe 😦 .
I used to do a great deal of reading, but for some reason unknown to me, I have since taken to blogging ever since getting into computers some 30 years ago on arriving in the US.
Jack
I didn’t ‘insist’ on anything just the statement that you read ‘all’ books on psychology since Freud is on the face of it ‘absurd’.Do you have any idea how many books that would be? I am pretty sure there are some major psychologists you have never HEARD of let alone read
A friend of mine who incidentally went through ‘primal’ is now working with something someone called John Bowbly came up with. (Attachment) I am not into that but there is a huge amount of work going on there. I was/am reacting to the kind of ‘intellectual posing’ which I see you doing……………….oh like I am some fine august British ‘intellectual’ and the next minute anytime anyone especially me has an ‘idea’ about anything…………..that’s a ‘head trip’. Which I see as more ‘British posing’ and fake superiority which you are also quite good at.
One minute you disdain any ‘researching’ of any kind UNLESS it conforms to your religion………………..and the next posing as some well read ‘intellectual’.That’s why I found your ‘thoroughly researched’ story about HIV just pompous and ridiculous and maybe more important NOT TRUE. Small detail.
I had a dream last night about going to intern at an embalming room. The embalmer turned out to be a guy I had played in a band with 50 years ago. There were two tables, an adult male on each; one a handsome dark complected man with an athletic body, the other, a former elementary school mate I have never been close to. Both were alive and choosing to circumvent catastrophic illness by death by embalming.
While the first man was being injected I asked the fellow I knew if he was sure about his decision, that he, “… might get well.” He was ambivilant. The embalmer excused himself to have a smoke. Another person I never saw started talking to the injected man. He said he ,”could feel the fluid setting up, and died with a grotesque grimace like an open mouthed scream.” Blair, the guy I knew
slipped off the table, wrapping the sheet around and we ran, suddenly being pursued by two security guards. I woke in a sweat, sobbing, ” I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” It was just a weird dream.
In the shower this am thoughts began flooding my mind. Thoughts about how in spite of all of my years of study, my daughter still died after surgery. I cried and said over and over, ,” Phil’s right, I’m full of shit. All of that study and I couldn’t save you. I’m sorry, I’m sorry.”
Then I remembered. Blair showed up at my school in Grade 3. A few months into the school year he was absent and the teacher said he had rheumatic fever, that he was very ill and might die. At night in my bed I talked to ,”god,” every night. I told him I wasn’t any good, that no body loved me or wanted me so would he let me take Blair’s place because people liked him. I did that until nearly the end of the school year when Blair returned.
On my way to my Chiro appointment this morning; I’m undergoing Matrix Repatterning, to deal with a spinal cord injury sustained last Fall, I remembered my mothering telling me at bedtime one night about helping the undertaker that day prepare the body of of an elderly neighbour for funeral. It was still often done at home at that time. She described the gravitation embalming in extreme detail, the process, the sounds, the smells. When she came home smelling of vinegar and formaldehyde I relived that information. Who in their right mind tells that to a 4 or 5 year old ?? crying now I remember,i’m seven, sitting , rocking back in forth on the cot, in our Front Room, bawling, she comes in and asks why, and i say i’m an old man mom, i’m just a little boy and i’m an old man. she stole my childhood and she had no right. and nobody cares unless i have something they want.
Interesting David..
Exhausted, throat raw have not hit that much pain for that length of time for a long time body wanting to go again but i just can’t rigt now and what for anyway
Sounds difficult.
Margaret,
I have copied some of the forward written by John Sarno from “Pathways to pain relief”, which hopefully gives you a better insight, than my simplistic version!!
“The proper diagnosis is a mindbody disorder in which people may experience pain, a variety of sensations called paresthesias (numbness, tingling, burning, etc.) and muscle weakness in the trunk, legs, and arms. Symptoms are highly individual. Of these, pain is the most consistent and disabling and the one for which most people seek treatment. The pathophysiology— that is, the actual physical process that is responsible for the symptoms— is rather straightforward. What one might refer to as the unconscious decision- maker in the brain/mind concludes that the emotional situation has reached a critical point and that something must be done to reinforce the normal forces of repression, the process that is designed to keep dangerous, painful, unhappy, embarrassing, or otherwise unacceptable emotions locked up in the unconscious. It is a decision made without consulting the conscious decision- maker, which seems illogical but which is the reality of brain function at this point in evolutionary time….”
What follows is the result of work with thousands of patients over almost four decades, a lot of reading in psychology and discussion with the psychologists who work with me. I am prepared to alter the ideas to be set forth at any time, as long as it is acknowledged that their origin is psychosomatic. Long before the details of the psychodynamic became evident, it seemed clear that some unconscious process was at work. Eventually, it was concluded that symptoms were created to reinforce repression by mounting a physical distraction, and that the severity of the symptoms reflected the intensity of the emotional state that required them. In other words, the symptoms were designed to protect the individual from the conscious experience of strong emotions. The obvious questions: What are those emotions, and what is their genesis?.
At first glance, it is hard to believe that the most important feeling is unconscious rage. The idea is threatening, preposterous, frightening to most people, but there is reason to believe that, with variations, unconscious rage is universal, part of the human condition in our culture at this point in evolutionary time. Consideration of its sources will make the idea more acceptable. As will be seen, it is not the only unconscious feeling that contributes to the necessity for symptoms, but is clearly the most powerful. It must be noted, however, that the rage is only a brief step away from the symptom designed to repress it, separated only by the “wall” that separates the conscious and unconscious spheres of mental- emotional activity. Experience has taught us that trying to express this unconscious rage is fruitless, though patients invariably ask how to do it. We have found, on the other hand, that becoming aware of the feelings that give rise to the rage can have a strong therapeutic effect. It should come as no surprise that the first contributor to the reservoir of rage we accumulate as we go through life is childhood. In fact, the influence of childhood emotional experiences is probably responsible for the majority of the rage, as will be seen as we go along. In the first five or six years of life, we are primarily emotional beings. It would, therefore, be logical that whatever reactions we have will be unrelated to reason or thought….”
Jo
I have also started to read “The divided mind”. A memory has been jogged of how I had to endure a doctor giving me penicillin injections in my bum daily, I may have been 4 or 5 years old. It was humiliating, as well as excruciatingly painful, as my dad was there watching (not nurturing) and my mum anxious. I remember yelling and having to steel myself… It may explain why I am extremely sensitive to injections, I get agitated if a spot of blood is taken from my thumb at my clinic ..etc. Not least my M.O. around G.P.s is suspicious initially, before I accept (or not) their wisdom.
> Phil, David, Jack,
> thanks, that was good breakfast reading, interesting and touching!
> am still bothered myself by a lot of fear, in my dreams, and as white noise during the day, hope some of it gets resolved in a not too distant future!
> then at some point had a nice dreams, with first some concerns about cats getting locked out in a room, but then turning into a warm and hilarious dream about cats playing around with pingpong balls and coming up for a cuddle and some reassurance.
>
> part of the fear might be triggered by upcoming statistics exam on thursday, the plumbers invading my place for two days in a row, as they are fixing toilets on all the floors, right now they are in my bedroom fixing a little fountain.
> then there is worry about my mom neding to go to a doctor’s appointment soon in another village, while she insists she can do it by herself, forgetting she did not find the former doctor at first, and forgot where she left her car too on another occasion, was ehelped out then by her boyfriend who happened to be around..
> and she gets so pigheaded when I discuss other options with her on the phone!!
> and of course there seems to be a huge load of old fear, including fear not to make it at birth, ‘won’t make it’, ‘can’t cope, can’t cope!!’..
> planned to go to a dance and a meal into town with a friend on friday, but am already very much inclined to cancel it, feel ‘not up to it’, well, might feel like ‘I can’t cope’, which is my everpresent fear before social outings..
> was feeling kind of weak all day long yesterday, bit dizzy too, found out my blood pressure was just a bit low, so only took half a pill of the blood pressure medication I am on.
> it already is a very low dos, as I kept diminishing the original prescription, while keeping my doctor up to date.
> I had to start it when for some reason my blood pressure reached extremely high peaks, 24 instead of the more normal 12 or 13 , and underpressure 17 instead of the normal 7 or 8..
> so right then the medication was really necessary,but I will keep cheeck on it now, with my talking blood pressure device, and maybe decrease the meds to nothing at all eventually..
> sorry for the long explanation, kind of thinking out ‘loud’ here..
> M
> forgot to mention the plumbers, appropiate name, pointed out to me, well, I asked them about it, that several of my drinking water plumbery is still in lead instead of copper.
> there are regulations now the landlord has to fix this, so have to make him do this now as soon as possible, as it worries me, drinking water out of lead plumbery all day long..
> just another worry on the pile..
> M
> thanks again Jo!!
> M
Weirdly ironically – having written earlier about sensitivity to injections, I’ve just been called by the practice nurse at my clinic, who are recommending I have the MMR vaccine as I’m soon travelling to Usa, and there is a measles outbreak.
Actually, the only times I’ve succumbed to vaccination as an adult was (1) in 1996 when I worked in the NHS in a hospital, and it was compulsory to have a Tetanus shot: (2) in 2000 when some shots were compulsory when I went to Thailand: (3) my first ‘flu jab in my life, jabbed viciously into my arm by an Intern ( she hit bone), which resulted in a frozen shoulder. Needless to say it was my last ‘flu jab EVER.
I feel disconcerted because there was care in the nurse’s voice, and it’s hard sometimes to ignore what the Health service offer. I don’t need to have anything added to make me anxious about my long-haul trip; California is one of the affected States, and she added “then you don’t know what you may pick up on the plane”!
It’s likely I won’t have the shots, as I don’t want more foreign bodies in my system.
Which means I have to try not to let it get to me.
Jo – please don’t…………….there is ‘NO’ so called ‘outbreak’ here there just isn’t. I have read a bit more about this so called outbreak…………………most of the kids who supposedly ‘got the measles were ALREADY vaccinated.(since vaccination is so wonderful one would have thought it might have prevented that NO it didn’t as it turns out…………….as far as how anyone could ‘trace’ and ‘outbreak’ (ALL of my words will have to be brackets) to a specific place like Disneyland……………….good ‘marketing’ I would say. Who would have thunk it the happiest place on Earth and some evil virus rises from the depths there……………a totally silly and off the wall piece of propaganda. But you can see it is propaganda that ‘works’ you have nurses in the UK ‘worried’ about it. That IS how propaganda works most of the people doing it have no idea………………..
Your instincts are good in this matter and your experience tells you too……………this is beyond ridiculous but shows the power of a growing let’s calls it medical mafia
You don’t have to ‘believe’ me there is no outbreak here…………………just ask anyone you know if they know anyone who is ‘affected’…………..they won’t because well there simple is no ‘outbreak’
Though maybe Jack knows someone he seems to ‘get off’ on proving me ‘wrong’ …………….what a strange ‘head trip’ is that and from an eminent ‘intellectual’ no less……………….
Jo, Another possibility is to be tested for measles titers. If the titers come back higher than a certain level, a vaccine is not considered necessary anyway. That was a really incompetent nurse, sticking your bone with the needle. I had a frozen shoulder this past year. It was painful and I went to physical therapy for it. It’s mostly all better now. Phil Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 13:11:54 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
That is beyond silly IMHO……………..’measles titres’ what is that supposed to mean……………you can be pretty sure the people who use it don’t know either…………….I had no idea this ‘shots’ business is becoming so common place…………….now every plane trip is suspect ‘you never know what you might catch there’………….it seems humanity is doomed and for several different reasons…………………
Patrick What your comment shows me is that you don’t know much about vaccines. Of course the people ordering and performing the test know what measles titers means. Why wouldn’t they? I do agree though about little risk traveling to Ca. But the MMR vaccine is no big deal. I’ve gotten it several times with no ill effects, just inconvenience of the doctor visit. Phil
Phil – How do you KNOW you have no ‘ill effects’ this I am sure will piss you off but I see possible ‘effects’ in your ‘thinking’ to start with……………..
I notice YOU don’t say what ‘measles titers’ is I am sure it would not stop you from using it. the phrase I mean
As far as the people who “ordering and performing the test ” I would not trust them as far as I could throw them…………
Patrick Measles titers is a blood test showing the serum anybody levels for the antibody found to confer immunity. It could be high do to past infection as well. We order the MMR titers fairly often as institutions want evidence that prospective employees or students have immunity. They can either get the shot, have the blood test done, or find documents proving they were already vaccinated within the accepted time frame. Phil
This is a level of bureaucracy I am glad I have nothing to do with. Just about every sentence there could be disputed but whatever……………….one thing I do notice is “already vaccinated within the accepted time frame”……….vaccinations were sold as giving life time immunity but it turns out no it seems………………need more and more ‘booster shots’ which of course is more and more business…………….to me it is utterly corrupted ‘science’ and none of it can stand honest scrutiny.
I am honestly amazed that in the UK they are pushing MMR for adults now and maybe ‘booster shot’ versions so the person will need it again next year if they travel again. I got measles at 5 y.o. that is the end of the story if you rely on nature if you rely on the ‘industry’ you will be dealing with booster shots and their not small side effects. Your choice Jo but I think you know the answer……………..
Phil – I have thought a bit more about this. In all honesty it seems typical of the ‘half thinking’ involved is so much of this. So if someone had measles as a 5 year old presumably the ‘anti-bodies’ would be low or quiescent by now. So what do you do ‘rev’ them up again with a shot…………….this to me is pure nonsense based on multiple mis-undestandings. It’s hard even to know where to begin but if this is the state of ‘science’ now god help us…………….
I’m currently a book entitled “The Emperor of all Maladies: A Biography of Cancer”. It’s a Pulitzer prize winner, very well written and interesting. It is the story of cancer throughout history and our battle with it. Apparently it has been made into a documentary by Ken Burns, but I haven’t seen it. The book mentions that the average human lifespan in the year 1900 was 47 years, I think referring to the U.S. By 1950 the average lifespan went up by 20 years to 67. This was a tremendous improvement at a greater rate then centuries past. This was due mostly to advances in medicine and sanitary condition. The advances in medicine include vaccines, antibiotics and other medicines, improved surgical techniques etc. Sanitary improvements helped reduce the danger of infectious diseases. I guess a lot of here might not now be living with these advances. I’m only part way through the book, but highly recommend it. Phil Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:37:09 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
In averaging, the death toll from hazardous occupations is an important factor. Sanitation was a huge influence. It would be interesting, too, if average age of death in rural populations was compared to urban population.
A pictorial history of earliest 1900’s US cities shows not only garbage and sewage in the streets but rotting dead animals, including cartage horses.
A report from US medical archives cites that during the Asian flu pandemic patients treated at
Homeopathic Hospitals responded to nearly 100% cure. The death toll at Allopathic hospitals was staggering.
“The report of the Surgeon-General of the US Army states that during 1917 there were admitted into the army hospitals 19,608 men suffering from anti-typhoid inoculation and vaccinia. When army doctors tried to suppress the symptoms of typhoid with a stronger vaccine, it caused a worse form of typhoid, paratyphoid. But when they concocted an even stronger vaccine to suppress that one, they created an even worse disease, Spanish flu.” Mainly originating at a camp in Kansas.
Documentation shows a staggering increase in infant and maternal death rates when doctors seized prenatal care and birthing from midwives.
In 1979 a report published by the head of Pediatrics at our Children’s hospital Dr, Nuala Kenny,
states that an infant born Belgium, Denmark, and, Sweden, and numerous other countries considered less techno advanced had a markedly increased chance,upwards of 70%, of neonatal survival than infants born in Canada and the Unites States.
I think caution should be taken in both understating and overstating.
When the FDA approved the use of the arsenic drug Roxarsone to be used in poultry production used to quicken weight gain and rush to market maturity size, it’s odd it never raised an eyebrow.
David, All good and interesting points. I think it’s true about huge deadly mistakes made along the way. The book talks a bit about overly radical disfiguring cancer surgeries. Phil
David, I don’t know much about homeopathic medicine. I would look into it, as well as standard stuff, when trying to get well. I had a slight case of acid reflux which responded to dietary changes, and I was able to avoid prescriptions having unwanted side effects. Phil
David, Is there a good book on homeopathic medicine you know about? I’d like to learn more about that. Phil
A good introductory book is , ” A Guide to Family Homeopathy,” Dr. Andrew Locke; Dr. Margaret Roy, now in Glasgow I believe is a wonderful educator, practitioner, and author; Internationally, Professor George Vithoulkas, Athens, is recognized as the current world authority. He is generous, and a remarkably good communicator. They are offering a new course, advanced Classical Homeopathy. Dr. William J Lavalley, MD, Phd; is another source I trust implicitly.
_____________________________________________________________________________
David, I will check that out, thanks, Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20534) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
Patrick, according to the WHO website 146,700 people died from measles globally in 2013. It is one of the leading causes of death in young children even though there is a safe vaccine available. Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013. Just quoting what is stated on the website. I don’t see how anyone can argue such statistics unless you want to theorize some massive conspiracy of misinformation. Phil Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:37:09 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
The term used is , “from complications of…”; in a world of 7 billion people. ” Leading cause is not used anywhere except, ” total worldwide population. Iatrogenisis, physician caused deaths , in the USA is cited as causing upwards of 800,000 deaths a year.
According to John Hopkins the child deaths from injectables and antibiotics far exceeds the risks of measles with 4 people dying since 2004.
David, My understanding is that measles is a dangerous illness. Those deaths reported by WHO almost all occurred in developing countries. Your low figure of 4 measles deaths might be for the US. Even for the California outbreak some people were hospitalized, although no deaths occurred, as far as I know. Iatrogenic deaths in the US: I see a figure of about 250,000 per year and not the leading cause of death. Still much too high and it should come down. There is a benefit/cost formula that comes into play with medicine. The benefits of it far out weigh the costs. Without medical interventions of all kinds, including vaccinations, antibiotics, and everything else, our average lifespan expectancy would no doubt drastically fall to match some developing counties where it is as low as 40 or 50 years. It’s clear to me we won’t be coming to agreement on these issues, and that’s fine. Phil Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 02:29:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
David, When I search on naturopathy and homeopathy mostly what I see are comments that it has 0% validity. Studies don’t seem to show that claims hold up, in most cases. That is pretty persuasive for me but I still have an interest in learning more about it. Maybe a lot of money and effort hasn’t been put to studying it and that might have something to do with it. Phil Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 02:29:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
depends where you look. Who is controlling the message; search Dr. Margaret Roy former Physician to the Royal Family; Professor Vithhoulkas; Dr. William J Lavalley; accredited schools of homeopathy; the Southwestern School of Naturopathic Medicine; Bastyr College of Naturopathic Medicine, Bridgeport….It was once the primary medical care system in the USA; now like Osteopathy and Primal it has been obscured. We, ” conspiracy theorists,” find links to the influences of the Rockerfellas, the DuPonts, the Carnegies in defaming natural medicine in favour of synthesized chemical allopathy. These links are in the form of letters to gov’t from the invested parties and the AMA. But they were likely forged. Like the utterances of Bush’s weapons of mass destruction detractors …
First described by Dr. Samuel Hahnemann, 1755 – 1843, in 1789. He is called the Father of Modern Pharmacology, for beginning evidence based efficacy; as well as Homeopaethy. He lead the way in medical sanitation, and was successful treatment of cholera, and typhoid; and was a leader in establishing humane treatment for mentally ill.
In the US ABC News touted Dana Ulman, MPH as “Homeopathy’s Foremost Spokesman.” Dana has devoted his life to homeopathy. He regularly speaks at leading medical schools and universities. He has authored 10 books and authored chapters on homeopathy in 3 leading medical textbooks. Dana authors an exceedingly popular column at the Huffington Post.
https://www.homeopathic.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Homeopathy/A_Condensed_History_of_Homeopathy.html
Globally there are 100’s of Schools of Homeopathy; it is taught in many European Medical Schools as a degree program. The Devon School of Homeopaethy is considered one of the finest.
reference:
http://avilian.co.uk/2008/08/25/scientific-research-and-homeopathy-research-forums-and-discussion-groups/
http://www.alive.com/health/homeopathy/
…” a man who has ears to hear and eyes to see has a growing mind…” Sitting Bull, Sioux
I’m resending this because of some many typos, I hope I fixed them all.
I’m currently (reading) a book entitled “The Emperor of all Maladies: A Biography of Cancer”. It’s a Pulitzer prize winner, very well written and interesting. It is the story of cancer throughout history and our battle with it. Apparently it has been made into a documentary by Ken Burns, but I haven’t seen it. The book mentions that the average human lifespan in the year 1900 was 47 years, I think referring to the U.S. By 1950 the average lifespan went up by 20 years to 67. This was a tremendous improvement at a greater rate then centuries past. This was due mostly to advances in medicine and sanitary condition. The advances in medicine include vaccines, antibiotics and other medicines, improved surgical techniques etc. Sanitary improvements helped reduce the danger of infectious diseases. I guess a lot of (us) here might not now be living (without) these advances. I’m only part way through the book, but highly recommend it. Phil Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:37:09 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Patrick, What I see is you express strong opinions on a topic of which you don’t seem to know the basics. Phil
Depends on your point of view Phil…………….I imagine I know at least as much ‘basics’ as you. In fact you seem to be missing the ‘basics’……………..as in most of your ‘science’ is not well founded……………
Phil, thanks for that…I will enquire.
It never occurred to me to vaccinate for travelling to the US. Now I’m a bit leery about travelling to the retreat because my immune system is suppressed at the moment. Hopefully it will rebound by the time I leave for LA, as I’ll be almost finished with my diminishing drug dose by then. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Jo.
Actually, now I remember my Naturapath gave me some stuff for helping to fight infections should I catch anything while my immune system is suppressed.
> Jo,
> that is very unpleasant, right before you will be leaving!
>
> It made me wonder, I have had the measles as a kid, does that make one resistant to it all life long?
> and smallpox and another disease, nasty kind of cough..
> wish you a very nice stay, Jo!
> M
Margaret, thanks…
I told the nurse that both my girls had measles when they were small, and I didn’t catch it, and she said I must have had measles when I was a child then.
The other diseases – not smallpox but rubella ( I had that several times at boarding school, and one is only supposed to get it once!) and diphtheria the other.
Margaret, sorry, it’s measles, mumps and rubella.
my medical doctor says that following the logic of the panic campaigns it seems illogical that humankind ever survived let alone flourished, particularly among those living in comparatively primitive circumstances. She reflected on the fact that it was ,”needled,” modern world relief workers who brought in the pestilences into Haiti following that tragic event they found nearly impossible to eradicate.. She herself turned to a Functional medicine MD, and a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine to regain her own health.
David “panic campaigns” is a good word for it. Disneyland measles ‘outbreaks’ and things of that nature are needed to keep up the panic and needless fear. They are literally like advertising campaigns and like advertising unfortunately they do work
Whatever happened to ‘ebola’ no longer such a problem it seems but the ‘campaign’ has worked………………..a vaccine coming at some point the fear campaign makes it seem necessary without the campaign people might ‘lose faith’ in their authority figures/doctors
I wonder at your authority on some of these matters. What I find a little disconcerting about your comments on the matter is that you are so, so adamant that your version of things are correct. A little more modesty and less authoratarianism might help you to be more convincing. There are no real certaincies in life other than “Death and Taxes”. What is today’s truth (certainty) is tomorrows doubt … and revision in ‘thinking’. That has been our history for millennium !!!
I don’t doubt that the medical profession has missed many ‘boats’ and later has had new ones … and the process goes on and on … to the extent that at times there seems little that one can be certain of. It was for that very reason that I abandoned the notion of “Truth” in my first book. Who’s truth and for how long? …
It was for that very reason that I would rather go by MY feelings … and hope that every other person on the planet would just trust their gut and go by their own feelings. Alas, we have perverted the very nature of the “whole feeling” (that is the sensation and the expression). It’s all to do with MONEY … and yet, most of us are unable to even contemplate it’s abolition. Why? I beg to ask. the only solution to that question, as I see it is:- we are so so, fucking terrified of CHANGE.
Jack
You make good points there IMHO. I actually agree with most of this. The only thing that I would question a bit is aren’t you with your strong adherence to you own ‘beliefs’ also showing great fear of change? You may say you don’t ‘believe’ in anything but to me you do. What makes you so ‘different’ what COULD make you so different? This old John Lennon chestnut I would add “I don’t believe in primal”
I have said before on this blog and wrote in my book that you supposedly read, I refrain from believing. “Belief” is a verb … something you do. I keep as far away from that ‘doing word’ as I can. I do not “believe” in Primal Therapy I DO Primal Therapy OR, to put it more simply I express my feelings as soon as they come up, and that is the whole essence of this therapy that by your own account, YOU FAILED to do.
Secondly: for you to play clairvoyant in-so-far as you are for ever telling me, what I do, what I believe, who I am, what’s going on inside me; is arrogant in the extreme. I am the expert on me … and YOU will never be an expert on ME. You are, as I’ve repeatedly stated, the best expert on yourself … only
Others, outside of oneself can merely only state their feeling/s about another. GET IT ……….. for fuck’s sake. Boy!!!! you are a slow learner, for all you hope, seemingly, to become some great intellectual. Something I am (slowly, I do confess) attempting to shed. It is my sole desire to become a FEELING-FULL person and to drop all that intellectualism that I got educated into. That was the turn around for me, when I entered Primal Therapy. That is why , to me, this therapy is so, so, so different to anything else out there. Especially those things devised by ex medical students, that it appears to me, YOU seem so desirous to follow.
Jack
Jeez Louisz man – I said I AGREED with you, you seem to NEED an ‘argument’………………..shows to me how little has changed………………you might as well be some toffee nosed snob mocking the likes of me for being ‘slow’……………even if I am ‘slow’ so what I thought being ‘fast’ is just a head trip. Methinks you are on permanent ‘head trip’……………..head tripping NEEDS ‘argumentation’………………….
Another aspect of this vaccination business………………it infantalises people turns them into little kids……………for God’s sake we ALL got ‘measles’ when we were children why are they pushing this on adults now. And Margaret you have not been so great attention ‘getting’ the measles is the ONLY way to build immunity to it not some stupid man made piece of crap riddled with other viruses, aluminum, formaldehyde etc etc.
And all under the guise of ‘caring’ oh we are worried about you, there is an outbreak there blah blah blah……………..treat someone like a child with no mind of their own……………..they love this about places like Africa of course…………….make sure you get you shots…………….but now the whole world is ‘infected’ how utterly nonsensical all of this is……………….
And Margaret to come back to you as ‘right’ as you think you are about so much……………look at your RESULTS!!
I had several dreams last night. In one of them I was a child on the floor wanting to
cuddle with a pet dog. The dog didn’t want to do this however, and moved away from me.
The dream was short and to the point.
Actually in childhood I got better attention from pet dogs than I did from my own mother. She wanted nothing to do with me that I can remember. The dream has to do with being ignored and
treated badly even by a dog.
Phil
Speaking of Dizzneland this song I think is really cool…………don’t worry about the so called ‘measles’ or even ‘measles titers’ whatever that is………………..
> Phil, that dream is indeed to the point. and very sad.
> M
Hi All
Yesterday I went to visit my “girlfriend”.
She is my “92 year old client”, as we talk about her at home. I do grief and bereavement support as a volunteer. I probably mentioned this before. But, the onset of age plays tricks with my mind.
Anyway, I was asked to arrange with her, Maria, to do an interview and some photo shoots. The story will go into a monthly blurb in the agency, which provides all sorts of services to the community.
After the interviewer left, my girl went quiet, closed her eyes. I asked her if she is OK, would she like to lye down, as she is extremely frail. She said……..wait for this…..she was talking to her mum and dad and her little sister. She was telling them how lucky she is to have ME in her life.
I got very tearful. Not because of the complement. No.
BECAUSE she had them inside her. Her terrific mum, unbelievable dad and the most beautiful little sister. They were all killed in the Holocaust. But they lived inside her.
Where is my MUM? How come I can’t find my Dad? Why aren’t they inside me now? Why are they not inside me FOREVER?
It kills me. It leaves me feeling empty. Lonely. Forever searching for that elusive IT.
It hurts. Don’t know how to stop it hurting. Day and night.
MUUUUUUUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
PS
Am I your darling boy? Do you really love me? Love me MUM. Please.
Such emptiness Tom.
I’m wrestling with it a lot these days. I don’t know which way to turn with my life. Every direction is empty, as is staying in place.
The one thing I know is I have to change the status quo; staying in place doesn’t change much, whereas following a direction might. I feel overwhelmed. I’ve been here before. I’ve learned that if I follow a direction that looks hopeless but deep inside means something to me, meaning starts to happen. But I feel frozen in place.
I advised someone once that the worst place to be is in the fog of indecision. That’s where I am, as retirement approaches and my life as I’ve known it up until now ends. The reason it feels so difficult is because I feel so alone with it all. When it comes to the desperate crunch, there is no one in me who I talk to….there is just me in there all by my fearful lonely self having to manage life’s journey.
> as I am no expert on most things, I stay away from strong opinions.
>
> my assumption would be a lot of vaccines are very useful, while some others might not have such a positive effect.
> at least that seems to be the conclusion if I recall a recent interview with a doctor here on television, with regard to a new vaccine against, I am not sure, rubella or smallpox or something similar, that some want to include in the general packet.
>
> he said with this disease and vaccine, the risk is it wears out at the age of thirty, and if people get the disease at that age it is much more serious than when they would get it at a young age.
> so that would be a risk, unless they also would oblige a revaccination in time.
>
> I guess as with most things, the middle way is the best way, finding a balance between the usefullness like with vaccines against polio, for me undeniably extremely useful, as they saved a lot of lifes and a lot of people and children from paralyses and disablement.
>
> on the other hand, as also my vet said, there tends to be an over vaccination which indeed we should be careful about and do our best to avoid.
>
> that is my cautious standpoint right now, and my behaviour at this moment is inquiring, asking people I trust, including medically well trained professionals, who often are very open about the pros and cons.
>
> it seems well, a bit presomptuous and not very smart to make strong conclusions about vaccines in general, if you don’t even know titers are useful just to check a vaccine is not necessary when the immunity is still there, for most people who had measles, but probably not for all.
>
> I ‘d leave those questions for trained people like phil and his colleagues, ask them about it and listen to their responses, without jumping to strong and rigid conclusions.
>
> so much arrogance, as a saying here goes, a lot of beeee beeee and not much wool, smiley, didn’t know the word for the sound sheep make, guess this comes down to the same..
> M
Margaret, A vaccine for Lyme disease in humans did not work out and was pulled from the market. It caused symptoms similar to the disease. It’s taking a long time for a new one to come out. Lyme disease is s big problem around here. Not all new vaccines, medicines, and procedures turn out good. So what you say here makes sense to me.
Phil
Margaret: The word I gather, for the noise that sheep make is:- Bah, Bah. As in the nursery rhyme I learned as a kid: “Bah bah black sheep have you any wool? …… Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full” If you are interested in the rest of the rhyme I might recollect it.
Jack
Margaret – I see your little and not so little ‘digs’ at me. Black and white, arrogant etc I know you are referring to me and I am not impressed by that kind of indirect shit spreading or attempting to. You seem to harbor a lot of resentments and a kind of weird certainty and there is something very rigid about you. It seems you will or would keep on and on with this so I decide to ‘call’ you on it. It takes more than your indirect resentful digs to make me go away.I am aware of your below the radar approach. I would prefer to be directly addressed. You seem to seek ‘agreement’ from others to bolster yourself into some ‘certainty’ but I don’t like your ‘digs’
>
> David, just for the record, I wrote my former comment before reading yours, so it does not refer to you at all.
>
> but well, as you mention it, although this is no medical blog, and I am just expressing my own personal momentary view, I have strong hesitations about homeopathy.
> I believe in herbal treatments, don’t get me wrong, but well, the memory of water is too far a step for me, specially after seeing some documentaries about comparative studies of clinical effects, or their absence.
>
> but well, we all can only try to form our own opinions with the infomation we gather, and I respect your view and your experiences of course.
>
> as Jack stated so well, nothing is entirely certain, and if I might add, nothing is entirely black and white in my own experience so far.
>
> by the way, does the word ‘nuance’ exist in English? or which word would be the correct one, if it exists?
> just curious.
> M
I’m sorry Margaret what comment of mine are you referencing ? Yeah, Homeopathy sounds rather whacky. That was my impression, too, even after some early study. Then I witnessed it’s efficacy in action, not only with adults but children, infants, small and large animals. A significant number of medical doctors use it in their practice on several continents. In France pharmacies listed Homeopathic Remedies as the first medicine they dispense.The medical doctors who introduced it to me held Phd’s, a degree beyond MD, in medicine and several specialties. They were introduced to it accidentally and their early foray into homeopathy was actually to prove to themselves it was ridiculous.
Stephen Hawking says the explanation for why it works is embedded in nano physics not chemistry, and that vibronics is the explanation for why anything works.
Homeopathy has done a poor job of explaining itself to the world. They reason that defending lowers credibility. Medical doctors I know are open with me that they use it quietly because they know if they go against the dictates of their association they will be defamed.Once the largest medical model historians blame the politics of the power of wealth caused it’s decline. There is no kings ransom to be earned as a practitioner. Remedies are comparatively cheap. People get well and stop contributing to the income line.
The studies I have seen have been designed for failure.
Medicine is big business.
>
> whom the shoe fits etc.
> life does not revolve around you Patrick, you seeem to focus on attacking the person instead of the ball most of the time, while my focus is on the contents of the subject.
> and yes, arrogant referred to your attitude, i have no problem being direct with that.
> M
This video/song reminds me of Jack…………… a top hat and tails toffee nosed ‘arse wipe’ except with him it seems to be a ‘wanna be’ of that luckily for the world he never ‘succeeded’………..I hate that English snobbery even ‘inverted snobbery……………………..
David – I thought it interesting your account of the Great Flu around 1918 was very likely CAUSED by vaccines or vaccines for the effect of other vaccines. It makes sense.
I have no proof of this but I was thinking as kids growing up the big fear of course was polio anyway I wonder what caused it how did it seemingly suddenly appear on the scene. I have tried to read up on it and I think we as kids got a vaccine so called DPT (diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus) which had been used in Ireland since the 1940’s. Anyway my suspicion is it is quite likely that so called ‘polio’ was as a result of that vaccine or others like it. It is a great irony that our attempts at ‘fixing’ things often make things worse.
As far as I remember we received for sure one vaccine possibly two and that was it (thank God) I know we were afraid of polio but I don’t know if the vaccine was even in Ireland at that time. Polio of course is always held out a the great ‘success’ and ‘proof’ of vaccines. But the more you dig into it it is far from that. Changed definitions, non paralytic polio was afterwards called meningitis, the paralytic polio had to last over 60 days after tne vaccine was introduced, before a few days was enough etc etc. Major messing with statistics to ‘prove’ what they set out to prove namely that the polio vaccine was safe and effective.(What strikes me also if the authorities did all this changing of definitions etc it means they knew how dodgy the whole thing was if the general public did not)
They never even really knew what polio WAS, they assumed it was a ‘virus’ which they did not know what that was either just something very small and assumed to be the ’cause’. it is interesting though that ONE episode has firmly put it in people’s mind that vaccines ‘work’. That’s some good brainwashing……………………….and something that is now built on to absurd levels.
Jesus Jesus Jesus. I am depressed and unable to do a lot of things that I need to do. Not sure why depressed. Old dog is old and will die someday. In the meantime, if he isn’t asleep, he needs someone with him constantly. That is making it difficult for Z because she is with him all day and trying to work at home also. Whatever. Money to pay taxes might be coming in, possibly. I got a few cans and jugs of corn, watermelon, and other seedlings going at least. Don’t know if I will ever get them in the ground. I cannot clip the maltese’s nails, which are horribly long. They are too long to take to a groomer, and he struggles so much that I cannot clip them myself, so they continue to grow longer. The old dog grows weaker and weaker in his front legs; we bought one of those crippled dog carts so he could walk, but that is not working out too well, the cart is like Frankensteins monster to me, and difficult to use, and there is no room in the house for him to use it. The boss clique at work just got worse, as they hired one of their own to be the lead technician. I hate their politics and I am paranoid about what they are going to make us do. They already stress us out by demanding more and more work; I am old and inefficient and my brain and body and will cannot keep up with the younger guys. The yard remains a mess and I always worry about the city coming to inspect it and costing my landlady thousands in fines, and then she could kick us out, and we would never be able to find anything as affordable in a good part of town. It is already hotter than hell here in the San Fernando Valley, which makes it even harder to get motivated. There is a goddamn hawk living in a tree not too far away, feeding it’s babies any live thing it can catch, in a horrible tearing manner, I imagine. My blood sugar had gotten to 400 by eating sugar, but I finally got it down to under 200 by eating boca burgers and raw vegetables and cheetos. Well got to go get some sleeping pills for Z at whole foods. I will come back and finish watching a John Wayne movie on Netflix, about a plane going into the sea. Strange little movies they put on Netflix. Strange strange strange. Anyway, cockroaches coming out of the woodwork. I moved a heavy recycling trash container of bills and papers that I have stored in there since we got back from Arizona in 2008. There were cockroaches under it, and I killed at least 3 of them by crushing them, by accident. One little roach went up to one of the dead ones and stopped for a minute and looked and then scurried off under the blue trash container that I had moved, where all the others had run to. Except one had run into the neighbors yard, and their dog was barking and then someone said “oh,he’s got a bug”. So I felt devastated that I had disturbed the roaches little happiness, and also the neighbor is going to know where the roaches came from, and he is a prissy guy who is always working on his house, and so I have fear fear fear.
> David,
> thanks, it was nice reading how you got interested in homeopathy.
> did not know Stephen Hawkins was a fan, interesting!
> M
I am not sure about his endorsement of Homeopathy, only read an article in which Dr. Hawkings said he understands the mechanism as the explanation comes from physics and that it does not act on disease, bacteria, viruses, rather it acts on the tissue of the body and the body interprets it as it does the vibrations that forms colors and sound. In doing so it stimulates the body to heal itself. I am glad Dr. Hawkings can speak in my language because I cannot speak his level of understanding. hah
David, You’ve mentioned naturopathy and homeopathy here. Are those synonymous? Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20540) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Margaret:
No Naturopathy refers to a medical art based on the belief of using natural substances, including nutrition, and natural therapies to support the body in maintaining health and healing. Naturopaths study Homeopathy and may choose to specialized in Homeopathy after completing a 4 year Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine, which in itself is pretty much equivalent to a GP with a specialty in natural medicine. A BSc and Premed are standard prerequisites. My Naturopath is also Degreed in Pharmacology, and was a practicing pharmacist. My MD,GP, gave up standard practice to pursue evidence based medicine. My Homeopath is a qualified MD,+ PHD, Medicine, MSc Microbiology, CD, PHom, Evidence Based Oncology Protocol Formulator.
When my son had cancer he recommended surgery before natural healing. My son s tumour ended up being benign. The oncology team hounded him for three years after because he was the, ..” youngest person to ever have this type of tumour.” When he refused to be guinea pigged the situation became nasty. His youngest son, at the time of his birth the youngest premie survivor, he had shared in completing a family history, was following an ovo vegetarian and fishes diet. He was threatened with being referred to Child Protection Services for exposing Daemon to a dangerous diet, if he did not submit to exploratory medicine. We met that with a legal response.
Homeopathy is also practiced as a stand alone practice. It has 2 schools of conviction: Classical Homeopathy, the practitioner uses single remedies and
attempts to find the one remedy that most closely matches the individual; Complex Homeopathy utilizes combination remedies. North Americans are wanting a quicker fix me it seems and complex remedies are composed of a number of compatible remedies that meet different characteristics of the presenting symptoms.
Contrary to popular belief a 1 hr consultation is not a hand holding, poor dear, empathy ‘r’ us, session. Case taking is hard work, recording dozens or hundreds of facets of presenting symptoms and cross referencing them with thousands of pages of Materia Medica. The Naturopath and Homeopath
is often rather poker faced to avoid imparting any behaviour that might influence patient response. It would not be uncommon in appropriate situations to give a benign remedy to check for placebo response. At all cost no message of, ” this is going to fix it,” should be imparted.
David,Interesting, I wonder what qualifies something as a natural substance. The activeingredient in aspirin, for example, is found in the bark of willow trees, so it is naturally occurring.I’m sure, however, that it is synthesized and not harvested from willow trees. Phil
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 22:55:05 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hmmm!!!!….???? Very interesting question, Phil; Sodium salicylate is commercially prepared by treating sodium phenolate (the sodium salt of phenol) with carbon dioxide at high pressure (100 atm) and high temperature. So the chemists synthesize natural substances, and sell them for whorish profits. We believe and there is actually science to back it up that natural substances are complex, such as salicin sourced from white or black willow bark, compared to test tube acetylsalicylic acid. It is the synergy of those elements that produces the desired effects and mutes the undesired ones.
Roughly 80% of the modern Pharmacopeia is based on the knowledge of the North American Indian at point of Invasion.
I’ m not going to do this Phil. I believe your, ” interest,” is pseudo and disingenuous; a man with a plan.
This is the game where where you, the guy with the real science degree sucks in the guy with the unscientific degrees and conspiracy theory mind and reveals he is not credible. Maybe that’s what Patrick means when he uses the word, ” sneaky.”
I don’t know you and I don’t have any desire to get to know you;and I do not wish to dialogue with you further. You’re a lab tech, you know where to look for information. Stupid me for playing into your hand. I’m a bit vulnerable these days and softened against my better judgement. I won’t make that mistake again. And surely as a grown person you don’t require rescuers rushing in now to laud you and spank me.
Now there’s arsenic in fruit seeds but different than the arsenic drugs Zoetis, Nitarsone, and Roxarsone, used to make poultry grow faster, 2X as fast. Hey, Phil maybe depression is really caused by low levels of Prozac?? What do think , Phil ??
David, I did do a little search on homeopathy and saw that many consider it a pseudoscience. Primal gets the same kind of treatment, of course. After I finish what I’m currently reading maybe I could find an interesting story on this type medicine. It isn’t some sneaky plan to later attack you, but I am biased due to education and experience, I admit, and skeptical. It would be good to become better informed on this, but I don’t know if I’ll follow through. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20556) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
This thing about ‘memory in water’ sounds strange at first but memory itself is pretty strange. Or how about the ‘memory’ of DNA etc of inheritance what is the memory that guides the development of a foetus in the womb, ‘something’ is doing the memory and water is pretty central to life. I know next to nothing about homeopathy but I think it is probably good also for all the stuff it would NOT do……………….I mean the usual cocktail of drugs and vaccines etc. There may well be something to it and also maybe not exactly the so called ‘placebo’ effect but the effect of going to someone who sits you down and listens respectfully. That though it sounds pretty basic is not so easy to find anymore it seems. The guy who made the movie about Scientology said though that is sort of obviously a crazy ‘religion’ just the fact that they start out listening seemingly intently and respectfully is enough to get people ‘hooked’ on it
I think Stephen Hawking’s ‘endorsement’ if that is what it is is maybe a mixed blessing. He also seems to believe that our best chance to survive involves going to other planets. That sounds like a pretty crazy and bad idea to me. I saw the movie about him during the winter and I dunno he is ‘smart’ so to speak but I don’t think that smart. What struck me about him is he seemed to start with big bangs and black holes and so it has been ever since. Even his illness did not seem to give him pause and in a strange way he has been ‘rewarded’ for his illness and all the cheering he gets for doing all his work in spite of his illness keeps him very much on the same track.I found it odd that at least as the movie tells it he never seemed to much wonder about his illness………………it was just a case of big bangs and black holes all the way down.
Patrick, I’m understanding you dislike science and don’t believe in it, is this true? Phil
Phil – NO actually! Quite the opposite I think I am still too ‘sciency’. I seem to need it as I cannot quite rely on myself and my feelings. It feels like something I ‘needed’ when I was very small and helpless………………..without that ‘crutch’ I would not make it. So it feels as ‘safety’ to me but like all crutches better thrown away or like living without addictions. But to me the beauty of ‘science’ is it has lots of ‘negative feed back loops’ so if it pursued to it’s end it tends to invalidate itself. I think ‘good science’ does that ‘bad science’ is more like ‘religion’……………
Patrick, To me, bad science would be something not properly proven by scientific methods. We might believe in some of those things anyway for whatever reason. It would be very difficult to stop using the results of science in our lives. Have to go live in the bush pretty much to not be using those products
Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
Patrick commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
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This was in response to Phil:
So !!!!!!! Who is deciding what is good science and what is bad science? I hope to fuck it’s not left to P. Griffin to decide. That would be an even a bigger disaster.
Jack
You might be right about that LOL………………..
” Memory of water,” is not a Homeopathic term. It was coined by a journalist when the theory published by French Immunologist Jacques Beauveste about histamine, etc, etc., After diluting the substance many time there was no discernible material present.
Homeopathy does not portend to treat disease. The belief that the body has the intelligence to heal itself is the basic premise. The homeopath is simply helping the body to so respond.
The same as I saw veritable miracles happen with Primal, me not yet one, lol; I have seen the same with Homeopathy. The first my inlaws Corgi, Taffy; diagnosed as paralysed in the hind quarters; I had accepted the sad job of taking her to the vet to be euthanized. She was to stay with us for two days before the event. As I walked down the hall, Taffy began screaming and chewing her hip. Every time I walked by it was repeated. So I sat and watched, talked to her and watched her eyes, her breathing. She was quiet and sad but only screamed if I walked close. So I
chose three remedies, dissolved each in sterile water and dripped them under her tongue. An hour later Taffy was walking. Months later she exhibited incontinence, and the vet believed it too was spine related. Remedies for elder incontinence did the trick. Those for childhood enuresis had no effect.
Enuf; guess it is clear Homeopathy is exciting for me. For others it is the ultimate quackery.
I wish you all you’ll have a good retirement. I would love to go, but unfortunately I must give priority to solve and improve my financial situation and move forward with my business. I think next summer I will be in a better position to go.
I really miss you. I have not done a long trip since long time and would love so. So I miss all colleagues of therapy, Also Barry Bernfeld, Gretchen, Atty, Tom, Jack, Margaret, Vicky, etc. To everyone I carry in my heart, you are always on my mind
Also say that the emotional brain has natural mechanisms for self-healing: it has innate abilities to recover balance, homeostasis and well-being comparable to other self-healing mechanisms of the body, such as wound healing or eliminating infection. If the right circumstances happen and no doubt that in the Primal Institute and in its retreats happen such circumstances.
The approach to the emotional brain to produce these properties of recovering homeostasis, the lost equilibrium is and was the great discovery of A. Janov and his team.
So I get emotional and I dedicate this song and I work you are always on my mind, best way you are always in my heart.
Miguel
Hi Miguel Nice to hear from you. We aren’t all retired yet. But I agree with everything else you said here. I hope you are doing well. Phil
> miguel,
> that was very nice.
> how does your business go?
> does it give you satisfaction?
> it must be hard to start up, I hope all goes well for you, you worked hard for it, M
> Miguel,
> I guess retiro more or less means retirement as well as retreat in Spanish, isn’t it?
> not in English, smiley, M
Below is something about the shooting in So Carolina. Whatever else is the same or different it seems pretty much all of these guys are on psych meds.Doesn’t say much for those meds.
“CBS News is reporting that Dylann Roof was arrested on February 28 in a mall, while he was asking a store clerk “out of the ordinary questions.” At that time, he was found in possession of a medicine called Suboxone.
It is an addicting drug used to treat opiate addiction. Some adverse effects: agitation, hostility, hallucinations, attempted suicide, depersonalization.
Rapid withdrawal from Suboxone can be more dangerous than taking it.”
At it again: One med causes it all. Namely that psyche meds are the cause of all criminality. So !!!!! first answer the questions:- 1) Why do some folks take psyche meds? 2) Why don’t all folks taking psyche med turn out to behave criminally? I contend the answer to both lies deeper than that Irish mind of yours permits.
Geeze; the simplicity of your explanations should require you to undergo some psychological treatment … not necessarily Primal … that might be too difficult for you Seemingly, your diet and exercise are not cutting it for you 😦 ..
Jack
You are just an idiot who it seems constantly needs an ‘argument’ I am not saying anything like you are saying, I just noticed that in the news. All the rest is just you usual projections, nonsense, head tripping etc.
I said earlier “you mght be right” I think that ‘threatens’ you more than anything, you might run out of someone to ‘argue’ with.
What’s up with that?
Phil I put this quote down here in answer to your ‘statistics’ about measles. I do find your just sort of repeating what you are told well a bit ‘weak’ There need not be ” you want to theorize some massive conspiracy of misinformation”…………after all a ‘conspiracy’ is not needed if people willingly just believe what they are told……………
“Over 30 years of vaccination for measles has caused vicious mutation in the disease, transformed it into a disease of adults and infants and left us with inadequate immunity to pass on to our children. And we now have a substantial number of children damaged by the vaccine”
You do an awful lot of ‘contending’……………the same word as ‘contentious’ argumentative………………to me that’s a poor sign of some ‘success story’ as self defined…………….how about trying a bit of FEELING………………..said in a high pitched gay Winston Churchill like shriek……………….
>
> went to do my first statistics exam yesterday, Quantitative Data Analysis..
> it took me three hours, and the good thing is I felt more or less in control, managing quite easily to look up data in all the different files my previous data analysis had given as output, and the summaries I had made of it.
>
> but doing this exam also was a test on checking how well the software I work with ‘R’,is lined up with the SPSS software that was used by the other students and the exam commission who had made up the questions.
>
> turns out there still are some differences,, some of then probably due to different presettings, I have heard my software is more accurate, and can therefor for example label a result as insignificant, while other less accurate programs would still accept it as significant.
>
> a minor .001 makes a huge difference if it comes down to a multiple choice exam sometimes.
>
> then it also showed that the way I had, together with the teacher, made up some commands in ‘R’ to split up a variable in subcategories, and then labelling it as an extra variable to work with, also contained a small difference, just a few percentages more or less in the groups shiffted the outcomes from some tests.
> that of course was no good news, as some of my output did not even appear in the options of the answers, but the good thing is I noticed what the problem was, and what its cause , and could extrapolate what might be the right answer with different settings, probably.
>
> then some small bugs in my own software became apparent, so I did the exam, feeling I had a good grip on most of the theory and practice, but will have to wait for to which degree the software that still needs some adjusting will interfere with the outcome of the test.
>
> I did immediately note down all the question numbers involved, in an e-mail I sent to the teacher, briefly explaining the complication.
>
> then today I did spend a lot of time in summing up all the items that need to be looked at, software and ways of proceeding with it, output inconsequencies, and the influence on a number of exam questions.
>
> I copypasted the output of the relevant tests and some definite anomalies and attached the whole lot in an e-mail to my teacher.
>
> I told him I felt good about feeling I had a grip on the material, and stil firmly believe in we can make it work with this software, using it only with the sound of the screenreader, and that I hoped he, or we, would find time to look into it, and make the necessary adjustments.
>
> so the conclusion is I feel proud of myself for what I did, regardless of whether I pass, but of course I certainly hope I will, after all the hard work!!
>
> sorry if this might not interest many of the blog readers, but maybe some, and it felt nice to write it down for myself anyway!
> so fingers crossed and to be continued, M
Margaret, It sounds like you must have done well on the exam, Congratulations! I would think your professor would take into consideration those software differences. I remember taking a course in statistics last century and all we had for use were calculators. It’s a large task crunching a lot of numbers that way. Phil Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:35:20 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Lucky old you … for at least having a calculator. In my century we had to do it with ambition, distraction, amplification and derision; then get the Griffin to look at our answers and pass it on to the Mad Hatter for marking … then if it was wrong the Quenn of Hearts would strap us.
Jack ass
Margaret: Good luck with the results. Can’t say though that your comment lit my candles. But hey hoo if this gets you where you want to be, that’s all that matters.
Jack
Thank you so much Phil and Margaret . I am sorry , I meant retreat, instead of retirement. Have a nice retreat. Retiro it means retreat , but retirement is jubilarse which it means in latin to be glad.
Margaret nice you are working hard with statistics. I had to take private lessons to overcome the exams on statistics the X in the equations gave me a headache, also private lessons for Methodology, and Learning and conditioning ( Watson, Skinner and Ivan Paulov) game me same headache) and also private lessons for Experimental designs.
Yes Margaret I am working hard on my business, after having had all my bourocracy resolved and My private practice recognized by the Department of Health of the Andalusian and having being recognized me and my offices as a sanitarian Center and me a Sanitarian or clinic psychologist and now I must look for clients , which is quite hard , there is much competition .
This is my site http://www.psicologointegral.com yand try to practice Terapia Emocional profunda. Deep Emotional therapy so there is no confusion with Primal therapy.
Miguel
Miguel: Congratulation, and good luck finding patients. I feel they will be the lucky ones getting a lot of Feeling Therapy.
I will check out your site.
Jack
Miguel: I checked the site and from my ‘tienda’ Spanish was able (surprisingly, being such a failure with linguas) to get the gist of most of it. A great site, very impressive and hope it gets you a fair amount of clients. I loved the picture of the girl crying.
Jack
Miguel, congratulations on your business! It looks like a great website. I hope you get a lot of clients. Phil
>
> wow, Phil,
> can’t imagine how long it must take to do a data analysis with only a alculating machine, a small one iI mean..
>
> it took me almost a month, several hours a day, to do the analysis with the statistics software, a lot of time going into unraveling all the data and summarizing them as to search for conclusions..
> and of course all the thinking first as to which tests need to be done, etc. and setting up the right set of commands..
> it is still surprisingly interesting, while also to be used with care and caution, as goes for most things..
> jack, thanks anyway, smiley!
> M
Margaret, we mostly dealt with small sets of data, sample sizes of 20 to 30, lets say. Yes, it all had to be done with small calculators lacking statistical functions. This was before PCs. Phil
You must feel great pride in your accomplishment, Maggie. Imagine when we had to do it on a piece of slate, using a pointy rock to inscribe the data. hee hee. Stats was a terror curse for me. I think something to do with ultimate accountability.
Gud on ya.
I am leaving to-morrow for the Kruse Cruise. Fly to New Orleans to-morrow early and leave on Sunday arrive back the following Sunday so 7 days at sea. Stops a few places along the way Yucatan in Mexico, Belize I think also. So maybe you will not hear from me (a relief to some I am sure) but then again maybe you will. I imagine everything nowadays has internet access.
I am ‘excited’ at the least it should be interesting. We have a little ‘group’ of 5 already but I think there will be about 30 in the total group but this in a ‘boat’ containing up to 3,000 people.. Anyway to give an idea our group is a 24 y.o. Chinese guy who now lives in Australia and seems a borderline genius a super ‘smart’ guy, a woman from Finland in her 30’s who seems to have something close to an iddlyic life in Finland, a guy about my age lives in Arizona and is a kind of ‘veteran’ (like myself lol) of a lot of the ‘movements’ from the 60’s onward lived in India with ‘gurus’ etc knows about primal too lol and a lady in her 50’s who is Canadian
I am a bit fearful it feels a bit like when I decided to go to boarding school. Leave the dirt and hardship and the ‘hatred’ of the neighbors behind for a NEW life a different and better life (I hope) a llfe where I will be listened to and respected and not harried and hounded by ‘hatred’. “Here” feels like home and people can see the parallels…………….anyway I found in the past that I cannot build a new life on the shaky and ruined foundations of the old but I am slow to learn. I am stubborn and always it seem ready to try again even if now i am older and ‘know’ that is not really possible
In some ways it feels like some “Last Hurrah” I feel weirdly ‘older’ all of a sudden but anyway maybe feels like it will be my last significant ‘trip’ not before I die exactly but before I settle down in Ireland very likely and sort of watch the madness of the world go by. I am done with ‘changing’ all that but I do reserve the right to keep my mind and eyes open and sort of go into the long night of the soul with a very bitter/sweet feeling about life. Some of the stuff I have been on about here the reliance on drugs and the vaccines and all the rest of it just seems like humanity bent on self destruction but bigger people than me seem powerless to stop it so………….
Primal or people here are my ‘family’ so to speak with all the resentments and ‘hatreds’ I have accumulated but family is still family so to speak again anyway I am rambling…………..I want to thank Gretchen for loaning me a few books that I may or may not talk about there……………I will see how it goes………….I even imagined myself maybe giving a little ‘presentation’ about primal I know people here might find me a strange ‘ambassador’ but anyway life can be and it seems is strange. I feel like saying ‘wish me all the best” I am a bit scared and apprehensive actually………..
This thing about being ‘stubborn’ or willing to try again reminds me of this song. And David you can even see how the ‘moving’ theme fits in here there is one bit around the one minute mark where I swear I just saw M.L. ‘truck’ lol
Patrick: Enjoy the trip and for fuck’s sake don’t go overboard with Jack Kruse. This time there may not be any life guards to save you … I don’t think they operate that far our in the Gulf of Mexico. AND … as advice from the “keeper of the crypt”; stay with the fear … it might resolve itself. You never know.
Jack … the other one, that won’t be on the boat.
Patrick, Have a nice trip! Phil
Thanks you guys………………I know deep down I ‘bring it all on myself’……………..
> Patrick,
> I wish you the best, and a bit to my own surprise I really mean it.
>
> you talk about hatred coming your way, maybe reflect a bit on the saying ‘what you give is what you get’, you sometimes really seem to be looking for confrontations, for reasons only you can figure out.
>
> so, well, still wish you the best.
> M
Thanks Margaret – and that’s cool that you ‘let’ yourself be surprised…………………….
>
> David, thanks, smiley.
> when did you have to do a statistics course?
> I had never had it before, not even in high school, was my very first encounter with it..
> will be a bummer if I have not passed, but still, the feeling of achievement is already there, and the desire to persist in going on with it..
> now have to dive into all the brain parts, their functions, the theories about memory, attention and other cognitive functions, and all their interactions and disorders, and it is a very detailed course, sigh, with cell layers and everything, and all those creaks and folds and their names, no wonder we get some crooked thinking now and then. an intersting course, but hard to study, too many facts…
>
> due in august..
> M
nearly 50 years ago, Margaret, Sociology; pretty rudimentary stuff as a function compared to today. But it did form a good base for complex critical thinking, due diligence, all of that. I came to realize how valuable it had been maybe 3o years ago.
david
I don’t want to be jinxing myself here and I really should be packing my bags…………….but I delay…………..I think I delay a lot because it is all too painful, delay seems to put things on hold, on hold from realizing how conflicted and confused I am.
Like this thing about the ‘new’ and the ‘old’ when I struck out all by myself at 13 y.o. I turned my back on everybody and everything, that’s young to do that or to feel I had to do that but I did………..I ‘planned’ it and saw it through but my plan hit a bump when my Dad took me out alone to an isolated spot in the mountains and broke down crying and I mean long and hard crying………….without words I knew what he was saying to me ‘I will miss you’ you have been the apple of my eye and you are going away’…………..it shocked me I was all set on my plan.
It was not derailed though I saw it through but I felt deep down guilty………………I think that is why I quickly moved from No 24 to No 1 in the class and stayed there for the next 5 years. I felt I ‘owed’ him that I could do that for him make him feel it was not all ‘wasted’ I was coming good or doing good for him really. And then that finished and I dove in another direction I was all set up to become a doctor that would have pleased him but I balked……………….I could not keep on that treadmill
Anyway I don’t even know why I am going on about this I should be packing my bags but there is like this huge conflict between the my desire and even ‘bravery’ for the new and the pull of the old. The old never lets me go it has a powerful pull it seems in the end to always win out. It’s where loyalty and deep connection and love itself is to be found and yet it also the place all those things were lost and lost forever. Newness is just an attempt to mask it to try again, to find my own way but I am weak and not equipped I am not well ‘formed’ I will wither and die
This kind of ‘conflict’ is even playing out now today……………primal is the old, Dr Kruse is the new and my fantasy is I might be all to TELL him about the old and for him to hear me and then everything old and new, past and present and future can all be contained in one great big understanding……………….the kind of ‘understanding’ I felt from my Dad that day though it really surprised me. I suppose it would ‘surprise’ me also if Dr Kruse ‘understands’ me…………..
enormously intimate, honest, touching.
Thanks David. And I have to tell you this you being on here is a factor maybe even a big factor to allow me to be ‘vulnerable’ i have mostly felt for a long time now un-appreciated and mis-understood here. It doesn’t take much so to speak but I am craving that. Anyway don’t want to be too mawkish about it but I have found you a very refreshing voice on here and your interest in natural health and natural ways of healing is inspiring to me. I have often found a weird ‘conventionality’ among primal people something that does nothing for me. The very first night I arrived in LA in 1978 I went to this ‘primal house’ I know one of the guys from London and it hit me like a brick and the word was “Conventionality” and really like a lot of first impressions there was a huge truth in it. My instincts told me ‘run away’ but I was ‘all in’ I had paid the money and I BELIEVED…………….
Patrick: these last two comments of yours have shown to me, that you were talking about how you feel … instaead of what you think … that to me was so refreshing. That, as I peceive it, is Primal Therapy. Least-ways the beginnings of it. The rest, I contend, will follow … naturally.
I doubt that Jack Kruse will be persuaded by anything you say … he’s too far into his own; er … thinking. I also doubt that others on the cruise will even let you make those kind of suggestions … the general feeling within the group (I suspect) is that most have already bought into his whole concept, theory, principle or, what you will.
However meantime, enjoy the trip for what it is worth.
Jack
all this Kruse cruise talk, thought I’ d google his site. Looks like an avoid poor health through diet and exercise site. I expected some hokus pokus. I’ve long ago found sense in the Nutrition Science described by Dr. Peter J.D’ Adamo. He wrote the first science based nutrition protocols and some said, ” Hey Peter, science and nutrition don’t mix.
David – moi hocus pocus? Do I look like a hocus pocus kind of a dude? Maybe so. I would like to think it is quite a bit more than ‘diet and exercise’. He has said recently food is fundamentally not important and as for exercise he does not stress that either, he is more a ‘brainiac’ than a maniac so to speak. To me he has a LOT to teach and he’s just waiting for me to put the final touches on his ‘system’……………primal that is…………..sometimes I suffer from delusions of grandeur……………and we know where they come from THEIR OPPOSITE of course…………..delusions of grandeur = made to feel very un-important……………
Iwhat I meant to covey is , that was how I heard it typed and all my cursory peek found was what seems to be very common sense based.
I’ll visit again.
That’s cool……………did you watch/listen to the Little Feet song up a bit from here……………..if you go to 1:09 minutes check out that truck, if that is not like M.L. setup I don’t know what is . Only thing missing is the horse box/trailer. Cracked me up!
Yes , I did !! ho ho ho. ML made me the kind of man I am not today…hah !!
Aside from that, moving furniture taught me a lot about life.
Spakking of hokypoky this site speaks to the science of homeopathy. I’ve long since accepted it by proof in the putting elimination. I’m tough to convince.
http://hpathy.com/scientific-research/extraordinary-evidence-homeopathys-best-research/
This is an oldie but goodie…………….I cry softly as I listen to it……………….so many sad ‘leavings’ I mean this is all very natural I wanted the new and was loyal to the old it should not be such a great conflict but it was…………..
OK last one and then I REALLY have to start packing my bags. This song conveys to me someone ‘bigger’ the singer is ‘big’ enough to care about or look after someone else (like me maybe as an example). Me I have never been that ‘big’ though I might have wanted to be I was always too caught up in myself too much a victim or I felt myself as the victim. Too much internal conflict and confusion to be able to really care about someone else. Anyway just a thought and of course I would still like to be that ‘big’ but well I’m not for the most part sad to say
OK packed my bags not such a big deal. Anyway I wanted to write a little bit about the murders in So Carolina. People here may remember in 2012 so the ones that are still around how much I liked and how inspired I felt by what I called the “Black Church” which was a Bible Study kind of a thing that was held once a week at a coffee shop. There was such a great feeling there really if I may say so I felt a kind of ‘fellowship’ and closeness to the people there I never felt in primal anyway I probably should stop saying things like that. Also I felt totally accepted by them even if I was the only ‘white guy’ there. Long way round of saying this church that was shot up some of the people and especially the women were talking about it on TV
They sound SO like the group I knew just really good people. One woman was describing how a fairly young boy don’t know what age stood in front of his Mother to ‘save’ her – they both died. The woman said he was awash with his Mother’s blood on the floor but so simply said “He was a good boy” It seemed almost matter of fact in a way like that’s what she expected of the boy.I feel like trying to find the group I used to go to and say to them “I was thinking about you” and just tell her how sorry I am for how bad white people can be. And apologize for all the nonsense and slavery and hardship they put blacks through and continue to this day
Maybe not a time to be ‘political’ about it but I can’t help thinking also even now this is the kind of slaughter the US dishes out every week with their drones and all the horrible wars they have un-leashed on the people of the MIddle East. Violence seems to be in this country top to bottom inside with the police etc and outside even worse. Even President Obama I am sure will do a good maybe call it PR job on this…………….more convincing would be if he made any kind of halt to US violence abroad but he does not.
Nice moral; gesture on your part Patrick… but the root of the problem lies way beyond even racism or that notion of the “other” be the other; gays, lesbians transgenders, blacks Native American’s and on and on. The Charleston alleged murderer was according to reports: hate-full. His psychological hate he transferred onto blacks and feebly justified that by “raping white women”.
What we need to study is why and where that hate came about … and NOT what the hate constitutes in legalese.
Where it possible (and that’s a remote notion) to go into his whole history from conception onward I am certain (and I fully expect Arthur Janov to write an article to this effect on his blog), that the very root of his hate would be revealed. Had the baby Dylann Roof been allowed the full expression of that initial hate/anger … there would never have occurred that transference onto blacks. Alas, we see and seek the problem from the wrong end … the present, rather than his past.
Jack
My white friends sold their winter home in S Carolina because they could not emotionally abide that white people there still teach their babies to hate black babies. His reported drug addiction would suggest the need to self medicate against imbedded pain.
A 16 year old Latino boy in SC, hands cuffed behind his back, was shot dead through his mouth in the back of a police cruiser. The officers thought he might have been a , ” missing child.” The state attorney general accepted the police report, “…suicide.”
Sick attitudes perpetuated through the generations also create outcomes.
David: This is a disaster that is shaking America. They real problem is:- will anything really change? If the history of the country is anything much to go by; the answer is perhaps little or nothing.
But my point was that, as Art is forever saying, until and unless we go into the history of the person, we will not find solutions … mere band aids. 😦 😦 😦 .
Jack
For the Colorado mass shooting , the movie theater case, I believe thedefense attorneys were arguing insanity. I’m not sure how that turned out,it may still be in process. The legal question hinges on whether the perpetratorcould tell right from wrong at the moment the crime was committed. The Coloradoshooter was on psych meds and did seem to be, as described, psychotic or close to it.But to me, with all of these crimes, whether they were planned or not the perpetratorsare insane, but not by any legal definition. Whether they know right from wrong doesn’tmatter. Their deep pain is driving them. It seems obvious that at the moment of the crime,any concept of right and wrong is submerged. Even during the planning stages of the crime.I was reading the story of this latest case and saw that victims families said that they forgave the shooter,in statements they made in court. This “forgiveness” seemed to be coming from theirstrong religious beliefs. I have been trying to imagine what statement I would make, if any,under similar circumstances. I haven’t come up with anything yet.This 21 year old boy is just the alleged shooter, but there doesn’t appear to be any doubt hedid it. I guess that’s why the victims families and surviving victims were allowed to make statements. Phil
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 04:55:12 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
This,” forgiveness,” also a feature of our Native community, is one of the most powerful weapons imported by the European invaders. A two headed promise, a better life in the, “afterlife,” and a sentence in imperpetuity for those refusing to accept subservience. Our courts and prison systems show that the latter is still implemented, now called justice rather than purgatory; ” purge + torious;”
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Int J Oncol. 2010 Feb;36(2):395-403.
Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells.
Frenkel M1, Mishra BM, Sen S, Yang P, Pawlus A, Vence L, Leblanc A, Cohen L, Banerji P, Banerji P.
Abstract:
The use of ultra-diluted Homeopathic products in the management of disease and treatment of cancer has generated a lot of interest and controversy. We conducted an in vitro study to determine if products prescribed by a Homeopathic Clinic in India do in fact have any effect on breast cancer cell lines. We studied four ultra-diluted Homeopathic remedies (Carcinosin, Phytolacca, Conium and Thuja) against two human breast adeno carcinoma cell lines (MCF-7 and MDA-MB-231) and a cell line derived from immortalized normal human mammary epithelial cells (HMLE). The remedies exerted preferential cytotoxic effects against the two breast cancer cell lines, causing cell cycle delay/arrest and apoptosis. These effects were accompanied by altered expression of the cell cycle regulatory proteins, including down regulation of phosphorylated Rb and up regulation of the CDK inhibitor p27, which were likely responsible for the cell cycle delay/arrest as well as induction of the apoptotic cascade that manifested in the activation of caspase 7 and cleavage of PARP in the treated cells. The findings demonstrate biological activity of these Homeopathic products when presented at even ultra-diluted doses. Further in-depth studies with additional cell lines and animal models are clearly warranted.
Interesting article David on an interesting subject. Thank you.
I tend to be a skeptic but with a cautiously open mind. Until now I’ve steered clear of homeopathic treatments, thinking of them as quackery. I haven’t read a theory yet of how homeopathic remedies work that makes sense to me. But on the advice of my naturopathic doctor who I trust for now I am taking a homeopathic medicine in the belief it will help me.
I believe skepticism is healthy and a sign of flexible thinking. I thought it was hogwash when first exposed. Hope the right remedy was chosen for you. The computer programs lighten the effort but the purists claim it cannot replace the observation skills of an excellent practitioner.
David, Positive results, and on that link you posted. With this one they would also have to prove it works in vivo, not just with cancer cell cultures. Thanks for finding all of this, I am impressed with it. Phil
THE INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF HOMEOPATHY
professor George Vithoulkas
23/ June /2015
Dear David,
The course Manish wrote to you concerning is finally a go. The prompts and early response is incredibly heartening. You are correct that Homeopathy needs to better represent itself and put out there for ongoing and continuous scientific validation.
George
Difficult Cases with in Depth Analysis Postgraduate Course
September 21st – 25th, 2015
Language: English – Portuguese (simultaneous translation)
Teachers: Prof. George Vithoulkas and Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa
The lectures consist of Live Cases, case-taking, analysis, evaluation, prescribing strategies, comparison of remedies, Homeopathic Philosophy and in-depth insight into the difficulties encountered in Homeopathic practice based on Prof. Vithoulkas’ 55 years of experience.
There will be further discussion on decision-making concerning the “Levels of Health” and the dosage and potency of the homeopathic remedy indicated, not only based on health status, but also in line with several other essential parameters that the physician should consider. Professor George Vithoulkas emphasizes the comparison of Materia Medica, presents new ideas that enhance awareness and understanding regarding the function of the human body, healthy or not.
Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa del Toro , MD, PHd(Medical Doctor and Moderator of IACH) will also teach and explain the Theory of “Levels of Health” and “The 22 Observations of the possible reactions of the organism during the homeopathic treatment.”
Daily schedule
09:30 to 11:00 Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa
11:00 to 11:30 Break
11:30 to 13:00 Prof. George Vithoulkas
5:00 p.m. to 18:30 Dr. Jorge Carlos Barbosa
18:30 to 19:00 Break
19:00 to 20:30 Prof. George Vithoulkas
This course can be attended by scientists of biology, physics, chemistry, biochemistry and related sciences. This is done with the purpose to open up areas of research for all questions related to scientific proof of homeopathy.
Information and Booking: Mrs Evgenia Mitsaki, Secretary of International Academy of Classical Homeopathy, tel. +30 24240 65142, email: academy@vithoulkas.com
Traumeel helps relieve pain, i forget the homeopathic drug in it.Our vet uses accupuncture on my old dog and it calms him down. The vet tech rubbed the old dogs accupressure points on his head and he relaxed. Primal Therapy is similar to homeopathics, in that most Western doctors think all of the above is lunacy.Also Tranquility Blend ( some brand name containing Paws in it) helps put the old dog to sleep. I am too lazy to get up to find out detailed info, and I could really use a homeopathic to stop my progression of alzhiemers or oldtimers or overwork-related stress. You know what, opium is probably a homeopathic, or at least a “NATURAL” remedy. Wish I had some.
The Homeopaethically prepared ingredients of Traumeel have been used for many years for therapeutic purposes, such as for pain (Atropa belladonna), inflammation (Echinacea), bruising (Arnica montana), wound healing (Matricaria recutita, Calendula officinalis), bleeding (Achillea millefolium), edema (Mercurius solubilis), and infections (Hepar sulfuris). Based on such observations, Traumeel was developed by the German physician, Dr Hans-Heinrich Reckeweg,MD, in the 1930s; he combined botanical and mineral substances to produce this natural medicine to treat musculoskeletal injuries and inflammation.
In 2008 I experienced a collapsed artery and an emergency admission. Assessment at The QE 11 Hospital, Hlfx, was performed and I was advised that I had incurred between 60 and 70 % heart muscle damage. Knowing that meant the equivalence of bruised muscle I phoned a Naturopath who also Practices Homeopathy from Intensive Care and asked she bring me an appropriate Homeopathic Remedy. The earlier the intervention the better. We agreed on a single dose 2000x Arnica, ( Arnica is a component in Traumeel,) Remedy. The Cardiac team placed a medicated stent to support the collapsed but clear artery. I was told I would have to observe restricted mobility for 6 months and a very cautious prognosis was suggested. A month later, once my incision was healed and dangers of blood clotting was past, I was back on my mountain bike and cardiac testing/echo grams/tread mill stressing, showed there was nearly 0 residual heart muscle damage; a nearly non discernible quiver. The caridiologist repeated the tests 3 times out of disbelief.
I used to suggest Traumeel to patients with satisfactory results for muscle related injury, sprain, strain and stubborn myofascial pain and release point therapy. I had a patient use it for Bells Palsy, the attack occurred on a Sunday and it was all he had on hand, with total satisfactory effect.
You are correct, Homeopathy is a choice in advanced European Medical treatment centres. Many pharmacies in Canada have Homeopathic Materia Medicas and Repertories and pharmacists who are knowledgeable in prescribing. It removes the , “man behind the curtain,” coveting of medicine when patients are involved in their treatment. It’s just respectful.
David: Your excursion into homeopathy caused me to look it up and the definition I found was :- “a system for treating illnesses that uses very small amounts of substances that would in larger amounts produce symptoms of the illnesses in healthy people”
I was always under the impression that it relied on natural herbal medications and as such it incorporated many of the other ingredients of those herbs. Whereas the pharmacology isolates the active ingredients and hence leave the body open to side effects, IMO..
In my childhood there was no ‘ Free National Health System’ in the UK (that came about later, after 1945 with the Socialist Government). During my childhood we were quite poor and going to the doctor was an expense my mother tried to avoid by treating us with herbal remedies; there being a herb shop and herbalist close to our home. We as kids hated my mothers herbal remedies, most of them bitter and nasty tasting, but my mother did manage to keep us relatively healthy (except for the xymatic diseases of childhood:- measles, chicken pox, mumps and whooping cough; then my father had to borrow money in order to call the doctor.
I am not sure if these remedies would fall under the category of Homeopathy; but they sure did keeps us very healthy as kids. Where I would draw the line between the real health (as I deem it) with ‘fully-feeling’, and ‘medicines’ whether herbal or pharmacology, is that is an attempt to cure the problem, after it has manifested itself. Not that I would denounce them, but my emphasis these days is on prevention in the first place. AND that, for me is:- via feelings and their appropriate expression.
Jack
In the 1780’s Samuel Hannehmann, MD, while treating a patient for malaria accidentally took quinine powder, mistaking it for his own headache powder. He recorded and later reports that he developed all of the symptoms of malaria which subsided relatively quickly. He repeated that experiment on himself many times with the same result. He then recruited volunteers and repeated it on them, same result. He then experimented with malaria patients and found as he decreased the dose of quinine the recovery was quicker. Those doses became less and less until a miniscule dose, he found, was the most efficacious. Since then thousands of substances, plant, animal, mineral known to cause certain symptoms if consumed have been catalogued. To make a homeopathic remedy a substance is dissolved in pure alcohol. It is then succussed a certain number of times. The liquid is referred to as the mother tincture. And here is where the voodoo comes in. Which Stephen Hawkings says is understandable by the laws of advanced physics. One drop of the mother tincture is added to a gallon of water, and it is succussed 100 times. This may be repeated many times until none of the original material is discernible by chemical analysis.
Hawking says everything has a vibronic/by vibration imprint. The color blue has different vibrations
than red; the same as an open D string on a guitar sounds different than an open E, different number of vibrations. The experience of Homeopathic scientists over 330 years is that the more the remedy is diluted the stronger the therapeutic effect.
Give that remedy, the source of which in it’s full state would cause certain symptoms in a healthy person, to a person with the same symptom, and health is restored. Homeopaths have to study and engage in supervised clinical work for many years before certified as Practitioners. Like any profession, some are gifted, some are great and some are less so.
I used the Homeopathic remedy Coffea, made from coffee bean, to treat severe hyperactivity, a remedy made from a plant that will causes bladder incontinence in children, will stop bed wetting; yet is ineffective with elderly; the remedy that counters incontinence in the elderly has no effect on children. A remedy from a plant that causes a hemophilia response will stop bleeding. Comfrey, made into a homeopathic form will heal broken bones. The Native Indians were using it when the Europeans arrived. A dilution of comfrey root dripped onto a gash will close it like it has been sutured, in minutes. These things I have seen, adults, children, babies, large and small animals. When my mother in law’s Corgi was diagnosed by her vet as paralyzed in the hind quarters, I was given the task of taking her to be euthanized. The night before I gave her, 30CH, each, Arnica for pain, Causticum and Gelsemium for paralysis and all I can tell you Jack is minutes later Taffy was up, tail wagging, and barking to go out to pee. An abused horse with heaves, calves with scours, one calf that was simply dying and her little face was so contorted with pain. I recently was reintroduced to now a young woman who at over a year old couldn’t sit, or hold her head up, let alone stand. 3 minutes, she sat straight and held her head up. Her mom’s GP and the clinic psychometrist had pronounced her severely mentally retarded, destined for a , ” Children’s Home.” She is self supporting, quite lovely, and normally mobile.
I thought Homeopathy was whacky shit crazy when I was first introduced to it by a medical doctor. I’m a believer now. And when I read Dr. Janov’s ongoing research I can see where it fits in, epigentics, Janov and D’Adamo; the ability to turn bad gene expression off and good gene expression on, methylation, which Naturopathic scientists have been studying for 2 decades, originally laughed at by conventional researchers. Primal is supposed to be impossible. We know different. I was reading Dr. Janov yesterday. He was saying, and I paraphrase, ” we’ve been looking in the wrong places.” “That’s why addiction, high blood pressure, cancers, dementias haven’t been figured out.” He didn’t say it out and out but between the lines, dementia so closely parallels the process of the primal process, back to infancy, and then ceasing to be, death; only dementia patients don’t come back to the present the way patients do after a primal experience. What if that holds the key to dementia recovery, Jack ??? When I read Dr. Janov,’s blog I get emotionally excited and wish I were a younger man, with my whole life ahead of me. I believe Dr. Janov when he writes that we are just on the doorstep of learning so much about the human condition.
If we don’t destroy our home planet first….
And I’m much less elitist these years. Whatever works to bring peace of mind… , ” Let it be…”
David: Thanks for that. It was a whole new revelation to me.
Jack
pleased to share, Jack.
Jack, I agree that prevention is the best thing but that isn’t always possible, I think, even with the expression of feelings. We all eventually get sick with something. As a child I was plagued with a lot of allergies, dust, ragweed, and other things. I was hospitalized for pneumonia. I was rather sickly. I am healthier now and attribute it to success getting to deep feelings in recent years. My blood pressure used to be borderline high and it stays in a low normal range now. There are probably other reasons such as exercising and diet, but it is all related. If I’m feeling lousy I can’t be bothered trying to be healthy. Phil
BIG AGREE from me Jack, Prevention. Arthur speaks so gently to moms and dads in the Life Before Birth interview, asking them to get along, stay together during pregnancies, give that developing baby the best uterine environment possible. I was so touched how gentle he was.
David: On thinking about what you wrote on homeopathy I later came to the notion that perhaps homeopathy was the fore-runner to what enable the medical profession to hit on the idea that: inject the dead virus and bacteria into the body causing the white cells (the major ingredient to body immunity), was thought up. Not usre if the origniators of that idea brought it from the homeopathy notions of letting the body guard itself against infection via the white cells, imunity.
I wonder at this stage, if Patrick would be against even that since it’s sort of the same priciple … infusing drugs etc into the body to precipitate an imunity against infections.
Following on from Phil’s comment: I do see if our childhoods and womb-life did not get what we needed then it would seem natural that the medical profession sought out pharmacological remedies. It is my main complaint against the medical profession that it is ever “fighting the war after it is began” rather than the prevention of the war in the first place.
How that may be brought about within the civilization as it presently exist; I am not sure how we procede. My contentions have for a number of years now, remained with the simplest concept I have been aware of, and that was the abolition of money and all forms of exchange. However, for all the simplicity of the concept; I am fully aware of the enormous difficulty of it’s implimentation. “C’est la vie” for now.
Jack
Jack, What’s interesting to realize is that vaccination isn’t entirely an invention of modern medicine.I read that the Chinese were already vaccinating for small pox during the 10th century. They inoculated people through the nose with material from small pox lesions. A little later people in Africa and Indiawere also already vaccinating for small pox. Europe didn’t catch on to this until late in the 18th century.Phil Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 22:35:02 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: interesting … I was not aware of any of that. It is also interesting to actually know who and what influence whom on many fronts.
Jack
Phil – IF (and I do emphasize that) indeed they did that has little or nothing in common with the modern phenomenon called ‘vaccination’. To me it sounds like typical ‘propaganda’ to make it all seem nice and ‘normal’. To me there is absolutely NOTHING ‘normal’ about it.
Anyway HI to everybody, it wouldn’t be me if I was not ‘arguing’ I have to admit that. Everything is so nice and happy without me it seems. Anyway I am what I am is all I can say. I am having a kind of amazing week on the Kruse Cruise, I am so happy I came. BUT I am ‘arguing’ with them/him a bit also. Trying to explain that primal has an important part of the puzzle…………………………………..anyway not really getting far with that which I suspected would be the case but you know me tilting at even bigger windmills!
Gotta go as this costs a dollar a minute (from the boat)
‘Love’ y’all
From your boat ?? on vacation ?? ya either luvs us or you’re on the wrong boat …
Quite a different mechanism. The goal there is to have the immune system recognize and mount an ongoing defence,There are specific Homeopathic preparations for communicable diseases. The remedies are in the 10’s of thousands, each proved by countless expert Homeopaths worldwide, repertorized for the symptoms it will remedy and cross referenced for compatibility with other remedies. Some remedies will actually antidote other remedies. Sometimes more than one remedy is required and there is a proven order.
When the Europeans landed here, the Aboriginals had a sophisticated plant based pharmacology. Some tribes practiced birth control, including temporary and permanent sterility by utilizing different strengths of the herb , “Indian Turnip.” They were using analgesics, using porcupine quills dipped in herbals to cause superficial anesthesia, sort of like acupuncture, or puncturing the skin and injecting muscles to perform certain surgeries. They understood the circulatory system and that the heart was the pump.
Late thought…: homeopathy was once the major medical art in North America. It’s reputation was established on the great success it had in curing the major communicable diseases. There were 22 major Homeopathic Medical Schools in the USA, and hospitals. It took me awhile to learn how to search for it’s successes as there has been a massive attempt to discredit it as lunacy, much the same as the attack on Primal by conventional medicine.
There is a homeopathic remedy prepared from opium. However it would not induce anesthesia rather treat the symptoms consistent with opium use. My Materia Medica describes the remedy:
Opium (Op.): The homeopathic remedy prepared from opium is more useful for emotional shock in which the person looks and acts like a ‘stunned mullet’. They are withdrawn, respond poorly to what is happening around them, and have a dazed, besotted expression.
>
> yesterday went to our mom’s place to celebrate my birthday.
> I was a bit apprehensive it would not be relaxed and nice, but it actually turned out to be more or less pleasant this year.
>
> mom had not forgotten to buy a birthday cake, like she did last year, after numerous calls to me about which day and what and when and the same all over x 10 times in one afternoon..
>
> and this year, she started asking me again over and over if she had already given me an envelop with some money, but after say the seventh time or so I could break the loop by telling her that if she asked me again I’d say no, and end up walking out in the evening with a lot of money in my pocket.
> that made her and my brother laugh, and she calmed down about it.
>
> I called her in the evening to remind her she needed to hang up the load of laundry we had put in the machine for her, and she actually told me out of the blue she loves me, which is very nice.
>
> so besides all the irritation and old stuff, we still manage to stay in touch with the warm feelings as well.
>
>
> still no news about the statistics at all, hmm, brrr…
> M
Margaret, Happy birthday !
Jo
HAPPY 16TH BIRTHDAY MAGGIE: Now you can ride the merry go round unaccompanied…ha
stats exam result in yet ? that would make a nice birthday gift
david
Margaret, Happy birthday! I’m glad things went better this year. Phil Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:03:07 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
>
> Jo, smiley, M
> thanks, David, and no, no news from stats so far..
> M
> thanks Phil!!
>
Happy birthday Margaret.
Thank you Jack and Phil. Phil are you coming to Spain this summer?
Miguel
Miguel, I am planning a trip to Spain, if I can work it out. My family will be going and I would like to join them. Phil
>
> thanks Miguel!
> M
>
> Hurray hurray hurray!!!!
> have passed!!!!!
> smile seems stuck on my face, still broadening!!!!
> M
Congratulations Margaret! I’m sure that must be a big relief. Phil Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:34:49 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Margaret: Congratulations!!!! Seems like that’s your birthday gift … to yourself. Good luck with the rest.
Jack
ha, Phil, much more than a relief, euforia comes closer, smiiiiley!!!
> feels so important, not only for me but also for my fabulous teacher !!
> I seem to have passed even without taking in considerations the software problems with 5 of the questions, so that feels even better, under better circumstances still would have been even better, and it is nice too now we can still use this to improve the software settings (for the next 5 exams, ha!)
>
> am so happy about this, thank heavens there is the blog to share this with, is still off the record so I can’t tell fellow students..
>
> haaa, momentary slight extacy mmmm best feeling of achievment of all exams,,by far, no wonder after all the preparing work we did, feel so specially happy for my teacher, really, would have felt worst for him if I would not have passed!
>
> too bad my best friends here are abroad for three weeks, want to celebrate!!
> M
MUCHO CONGRATSO, Maggie..
Congratulations Margaret. That is a major achievement, especially given the so many doubts and hurdles that you overcame. It will be interesting to see what you eventually learn from all this, besides the course material. Happy Birthday.
> thanks Jack, that is a nice way to look at it!
> it is so good to really have something I feel proud about, this course was such a challenge compared to the other courses. 5 more modules of it to go, smiley..
>
> and only 35 more modules of all kind of courses only for the bachelor ha!
> and then the rest after that, won’t be bored for a while, smiley..
> M
Hi Margaret
Happy, happy Birthday. Many happy returns. Glad to hear your mum stepped up and made it pleasant for you.
And congratulations for your educational accomplishment. That is major achievement.
You have perseverance and you are goal orientated. It paid off. Big time.
Tom
Happy, Happy Birthday Margaret! Could not have thought of a better gift for you – than your hard work, determination and brains (not necessarily in that order either!) paying off.
Congratulations!
Enjoy this proud and happy time!
ox L.
Always a oneupper in the crowd. We all said, Happy Birthday, to Margaret now, here’s a Happy, Happy, Birthday, from Leslie… hah hah hah !!!!! exclamation marks, Maggie.
Margaret, well done , good reward for hard work .. Smiley
Jo
> thanks Leslie, David, Larry, Tom!
> I notice how ‘feeling good’ about myself expresses much more the feeling than ‘feeling proud’ actually.
> it seems to be a healing from not feeling good about myself, a regain of some basic self-confidence, in part.
>
> some of the shame about ‘failures’ and stupid actions and decisions in my life gets resolved I guess..
>
> thanks to all of you, also Miguel, Jack and Phil of course…
> M
> thanks Jo, smiley, M
Congratulations , felicidades Margaret for having passed your exam
Phil if you come let’s see if we can see each other
Miguel
> muchas gracias, Miguel!
> M
> hi Patrick,
> haha, yes, have you always argued, also as a little boy?
> and love to us all, that’s nice, seabreeze must be good for you, am curious as to how things will work out there.
> hope you have some good times, M
> Larry,
> how is your health?
> and Guru, where are you???
> M
Margaret, I am my health is 95% better thanks, but I am not back to normal. I am down to 1/4 of the gradually diminishing initial prescription dose. I don’t know whether it’s due to the drug or the disorder, but I’d become weak and very short of breath. I’d considered I might not be fit enough to go to the retreat. This past Thursday though my breathing became more normal, and on Friday at the gym I felt with relief I was finally approaching somewhat closer to my normal level of fitness.
But as of last Wednesday I’ve been having small flareups in some small muscle groups. It started with my neck bothering me on Wednesday evening for no obvious reason. The ache lasted overnight and was more intense when I arose on Thursday morning. As I awoke to the pain I became very anxious that the symptoms of the disorder would return in full force and plague me forever.
What is interesting from a primal perspective, is that I became scared and then angry at the disorder and that it might cripple my life. I spontaneously, reflexively, angrily pounded pillows and cushions, pissed at the disorder and defying it. Pretty quickly the anger drifted to being pissed that the disorder will hold me back from life, and then drifted to anger that I’m holding myself back from life because of feeling afraid and alone, and then drifted to anger at my parents, particularly my Dad, when from being a small boy I was scared and alone and needed connection with him but he was stone cold distant and out of touch, I’m angry that his insensitivity and indifference allowed for an impossible to cope with gaping hole of fear and aloneness in me that blighted my entire life. I’m angry that the fear and aloneness could overwhelm me still today, and I need to fight against it, fight for myself, to make something of my life. I’m angry that I’m needlessly burdened with such difficult hurdles that I might let hold me back. Interestingly, after I got through some anger and cried some need for him, to my physical and emotional relief my muscle soreness and inflammation abated for a few days. It seems to be back again though, troubling me with transient soreness in feet or hands or neck. I think before I fly to LA I better talk to my doctor again about my prescription dosage.
My hope is that my brain is creating the physical symptoms to distract me from becoming conscious of deep emotional pain, and that eventual connection with the emotional pain will reduce or eliminate the need for my brain to generate the distracting physical symptoms. I do notice an internal shift in my psyche, towards accepting in a deeper way that yes I am alone and afraid in the present and deep in the fiber of my being, and only I can do something about it, specifically I have to push beyond/despite the fears and aloneness and do what feels impossible and hope I can fill my life and make it better for me. It seems to me that otherwise I will be paralysed not just by my fear, but by the immune system disorder attacking my muscles.
A powerful, moving book of historical fiction that I’ve been reading helped me to sink into awareness and feelings of the unfair burden of my fears and emptiness and my anger over it and into ultimately crying my deep need for my parents, especially for my Dad. The book is Sarah’s Key by Tatiana de Rosnay. The tragic loss suffered by the innocent 10 year old girl is real and heart rending, a grossly unfair burden she bravely strives to survive, a burden she of course can never entirely escape and that callously and indifferently diminishes her innocent life. It is historical fiction. It is real. Near the end of the book my sobbing rose up in empathy for her, and in my sobbing I then saw myself and my truth I can never escape from, except to open up to and confront and accept head on, as much as I can a little at a time.
The gay marriage issue seemingly is settled: but what does it actually mean for me, a gay man cohabiting with my lover/companion of 34 years? I am not quite sure.
For the gay community as a whole I am pleased for all of us. It gives us finally, legal status previously only afforded heterosexual couples. That’s great, but for me there is a broader issue … Does it mean that we can feel safer out there in the world? Not sure, for the moment at least … does it mean that now gay couples will flaunt their new found freedom?. I sure hope not … does it mean there will be less discrimination? … for the moment, I doubt it, … but it does pave the way for the younger generation. I feel, it’s no big deal being gay, straight, red haired, brown eyed, tall, short, male, female or, any other difference there might be between us … as humans??
I do feel that the biblical scriptures that have denounced homosexuality (man laying with man) have perhaps been dealt a great blow to it’s validity. That I feel in the long run will invalidate much of all the mono-theism’s ‘raison d’etre’.
However, one last thought that might bring me some flack from other gays and lesbians:- Whatever way it is looked at, there is nothing “normal” about homosexuality. It a product, or a result of, trauma … in the womb IMO. That is not to say that it could or should be reversible.
Jack
I am totally unqualified to make comment on this issue, Jack, of which you are expert, but your thoughts mirror my own. I think,( IMHO,) that regardless of country, that the, “… old, fat white white, ” power brokers, regardless of their race, gender, sexual preferences, run the show to their advantage. The rest of us are allowed to exist in a descending order of privileges according to our colors, assortment of identities, and assumed threat to the ownership of the booty and the enabling rules of regime of the, ” rulers.” I have given up using my pea sized brain analyzing how it is to their advantage when small, ” improvements,” are permitted to come to be, sexual preference, re-legalizing cannabis, ending slavery. The Civil War is flagged as ending slavery, yet the federal gov’t of the North ensured that it continued for nearly another 80 years. The prison system was, and is, much more efficient that the slave barns. There are a myriad of other examples, the illegal Mexican work force; child sweat shops, and the abuse of the immigrant, illegal and applicants in waiting work force in Canada including the piece work textile cottage industry, where women are largely targeted. Not to mention how, “we,” run , ” our,” slave trade in the offshore economies.
It occurs to me that I just answered my question to myself as to why I have not been in a feeling marathon for the past couple of weeks, I’m more back in my head. The comfort of refuge…. hah
Wow David: You put me to shame … broadening out the whole argument about life and society in general. Right on sucker … about everything you wrote.
Jack
Thank you Jack. That makes me feel good, teary eyed good.
david
Lifted this off of a site on Health and Epigenetics and how choice of foods need to be tailored to our individual blood types, otherwise lectins in foods affect us and trigger disease responses. Anyway found this interesting.
Why Personalized Nutrition Matters June 27, 2015Blood Type Diet, Blood Type Physiology,
How many advertisements for the latest diet fad have you read that started like this…
healthydigestion
“I’ve tried every diet out there and nothing worked until I found FILL IN ANY DIET NAME HERE.”
The person in the ad then went on to tell you why this new diet worked for them when nothing did before. If you know anything about personalized nutrition, it’s not surprising that nothing else worked for them – the other diets simply weren’t compatible with their blood type. Finding the right nutrition program for you can involve years of trial and error, or, you can make it simple and follow your Blood Type Diet. It’s really that easy – personalized nutrition matters.
Why?
This is the question that is at the heart of the genetic puzzle. It is also central to our exploration of blood types. The key is genetic heritage – the story line of your life. Even though you are living in the 21st century, you share a common bond with your ancestors. The genetic information that resulted in their particular characteristics has been passed on to you. People who are O blood type have a different set of characteristics than people who are Type B or Type A – they are susceptible to different diseases, they should eat different foods and exercise in a completely different manner
The Lectin Connection
Foods and supplements contain lectins that interact with your cells depending on your blood type. This explains why some nutrients which are beneficial to one blood type, may be harmful to the cells of another. Simply put, when you eat a food containing protein lectins that are incompatible with your blood type antigen, the lectins target an organ or bodily system (kidneys, liver, gut, stomach, etc.) and can begin to interact with the tissues in that area.
Digest This
There is surprising evidence that many of the bacteria in your microbiome like to ‘eat right for their blood type.’ Our blood type antigens are actually prominent in your digestive tract and, in about 80% of individuals, are prominent in the mucus that lines your digestive tract. Because of this, many of the bacteria in your digestive tract actually use your blood type as a preferred food supply. In fact, blood group specificity is common among intestinal bacteria with almost 50% of strains tested showing some blood type A, B, or O specificity.
Disease Susceptibility
Numerous scientific studies have linked blood type with a predisposition to many diseases including; cancer, ulcers, thyroid disease, autoimmune diseases, and cognitive diseases. Eating the right foods and living a healthy lifestyle may help to counteract those diseases.
Stress Response
People of different blood types have different responses to stress. For example, Type O ancestry causes an immediate “fight or flight” response in people of this blood type. However, this finely tuned response to stress, so vital in early Type O’s, is not always so beneficial in modern times. The Type O response can cause bouts of excessive anger, temper tantrums, hyperactivity and even create a severe enough chemical imbalance to bring about a manic episode. Since there is a powerful, synergistic relationship between the release of dopamine and feelings of reward, Type O is more vulnerable to destructive behaviors when overly tired, depressed or bored. These can include gambling, sensation seeking, risk taking, substance abuse and impulsivity. Type As have a naturally high level of the stress hormone cortisol and produce more in response to stressful situations. Due to the naturally elevated cortisol in type As, additional stress often manifests in several ways; disrupted sleep patterns, daytime brain fog, increased blood viscosity (thickening), and promotes muscle loss and fat gain. In extreme cases in Type As, stress can manifest in more serious ways, causing obsessive-compulsive disorder, insulin resistance and hypothyroidism.
Crying not suire why. Scarlet Begoinias. Donna girl singing maybe tripped me off. dead mom. dead friend who probably tried to play the dead on his guiitar for me. mom who played music for me.. impendfling dead dog. miss the institute. never got into the dead before, lately l9istdning to them more and more. z is out somewherre, only reason i can dare to feel.
mom was a cancer, coming up on her birthday july 5. never got to celebrate it with her, maybe in womb, thats about it.
dead jerry garcia. never got to know him much
my lost fucking life. so long ago. such pain. suchl deep deep pain
missed out on the whole grateful dead era. missed out on the dancing and loving. just got the drugs and missed out on everything else. lonely lonely lonely
such deep deep joyful music. only finding it now. sob sob sob
z home. end of feel. not her fault. just me scaredy cat me.
I just got home, it’s strange so many aspects and feelings relating to all that I experienced the last week and it’s like to-day travelling back to LA I ‘imagine’ myself writing about this and that aspect not about it overall that feels like too much. And now I don’t seem to have a thought in my head, tired also I suppose.
Anyway it seemed worth saying I imagined voicing it out to the blog………………maybe also because I don’t have anyone I am REALLY close to so the blog it will have to be. I will write as things pop into my head……………..
Can’t sleep so well…..restless and I suppose a bit jet lagged though only a 2 hour difference. Part of me thinks who am I kidding I mean the idea that ‘here’ is a place I can kind of let down and just say and say…………..I have burned too many bridges why should people listen or care………….but it would be nice to have that kind of a place. I suppose I could but I tend to alienate and ruin things.
I didn’t hear this first hand for myself but Dr Kruse (afterwards known as Dr K) though in person is very friendly and outgoing and likes to see the funny side of things has kind of a very dark vision of humans and where we are going. A lot of his stuff is based around the idea the world is deteriorating and fast and he is trying to give ‘tips’ on how to survive or make it through as he sees it the ongoing “6th Extinction Event” which is a title of a book that came out last year written by Elizabeth Kolbert which I read recently. Let’s say it’s pretty much up there in my ‘gloom and doom’ ones ahead of JH Kunstler even.
Anyway I do follow the news but being off the grid for a week I didn’t and coming back and seeing more and more random killings or not ‘random’ as the case maybe. There was the S. Carolina one before I left and reading the papers yesterday Tunisia and other stuff in the Middle East. And on the ‘positive’ as we like to think it is at least we can only stack up things like gay marriage and obamacare. Little ‘patches’ or band aids on an ongoing disaster. OK this is what I did not hear directly from him but someone there did and he supposedly said if humans are to have any chance of truly turning things around and developing a new and sustainable future the population will need to be ‘thinned down’ to around 150,000 total worldwide
I don’t know the context of this or is it that the world is so over-taxed that it can only support about that many and maybe we heed such a massive shock and die off to change. I really don’t know………….but it’s the kind of thing that resonates with me and instinctively makes sense to me. And coming back here to LA and the heat and not being able to sleep it feels right even if it also feels pretty wrong if I am making any kind of sense at all. Anyway though as I say deep down very gloomy the guy is a lot of fun as you might get the impression here he is the main character in the glasses and I feature here too if you scroll down. He seems to like me even though I push back with him more than most like trying to say ‘primal’ is important. He is not there yet if he ever will be……………….looking at those pictures it’s like what is left from the ’60’s which sadly is not very much
http://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/the-kruse-cruise-thread.12344/page-17
Dr K is not a ‘guru’ to me I don’t think I am capable of really believing in gurus…………but on a certain level I suppose. I need a daddy figure or most correctly I really needed a daddy which my dad was in many ways………….anyway looking at the pictures I like that he put me first not that I am ‘first’ with him at all. There are other people ‘smarter’ than me or at least I give them that………….I never feel so ‘smart’ anyway I shed a tear looking at those and it’s partly because he put me ‘first’ I always was first in my class at school because I deep down felt I was ‘last’. I am known there a bit from my ‘jokes’ and sometimes a bit serious too that he is fomenting a ‘cult’ (that word again)………but he rides it pretty good and I really like the way he can take a push back or even a punch and not be all ‘hurt’ or resentful or out to hurt me back. He is 1/4 Irish and I think he feels that in common with me too, he knows we can get like that and no hard feelings will be left over. I am crying a little as I write this…………….that is what I have always wanted…………
He says he is 3/4 German and 1/4 Irish…………..and I said at one of the meetings that kind of sums him up in certain ways. The German part is the great thinker and system builder reminds of me of the great German philosophers I loved as a young man (Kant, Hegel, Heidegger etc etc) some really great ‘minds’ and the Irish part is the bit that wants to give it all away for free, just because and because he cares. And he knows that the world needs it and it might help the ‘common good’. I am crying as I write this I suppose he is a bit of a ‘guru’ anyway no big deal……………………
rry,
> sorry to hear your health still goes up and down, that must be very stressful..
> hope you make it sound and safe to the retreat and that dealing with your feelings helps you with getting better soon!
> good you are about to doublecheck with your doctor too.
>
> will miss you all and will miss not being there myself, so you retreaters, it would be very very nice if you keep us posted a bit from time to time, smiley..
> wouldn’t it be an idea to try out a group through skype, that must be possible imo, using it kind of like a conference call, with a therapist to moderate..
> would be an interesting experiment, not quite the same but still with its own qualities and accessible and cheap for the ones living far away!
>
> hi Patrick off te boat,
> M
For me the retreats have always been a rich and helpful experience, yet I never totally look forward to going to them. As this one approaches, I almost feel ill about the thought of going. Retreats can be rewarding, but only if you are willing to grapple with your fears there. Not looking forward to it.
Some things happened to/for me on this trip…………….like crying several times in different situations. The first one was the first ‘session’ actually meeting where all (around 32 people) were to introduce themselves. I was one of the last to speak and having listened to a lot of the others it’s like I wanted to do something a bit different. Like people would typically say how and when they heard of Dr K. I thought I want to do something a bit ‘more’ or different even work primal into it
But it starts to feel all too much so much to get out how do I introduce topics especially primal etc. Anyway my turn comes and I go like ‘I’m not sure where to start’. Dr K says ‘why don’t you start at the beginning” Wham! I start sobbing like that’s a big question I try to talk but basically can’t crying and I mumble out ‘I can’t do this’ Dr K says ‘that’s ok’ and just moves on to the next person. I feel like such a child I could not speak I literally could not. Over time I start to calm down and listen to the others. I’m thinking I feel I have so much to say but the more there is the more impossible or huge it feels. Then I’m thinking I can’t just let this go, I can’t walk out of that room and not have spoken the ONLY one with that problem
So I wait until everyone is done and I put up my hand and say I have to speak I can’t just leave it like this. And then I was OK I was able to talk about about how ‘primitive’ I felt compared to most of them there. There are several doctors lots of IT people or ex IT people as most of them want to get away from it and even blame a lot of their health issues on excessive IT especially if they work in the field. I mention how they all want to get back to a simpler life and I talk about how I HAD that I mean as a child. No electricity until 4 y.o. no running water of showers or baths for that matter until I was 9 y.o. How in our different ways we are all trying to get back to that ‘simple’ life that I had but did not value. We were ashamed of ourselves growing up just a bunch of dirty peasants and yet that is what we all want now. How I felt inadequacy compared to a lot of the others but how I want to hold onto and get back to my ‘primitive’ ways and state.
I talk a bit about primal I mentioned earlier here when I met Dr K in March I gave him Janov’s “Life Before Birth” and I ask him has he any opinion on it. Dr K says he does but it’s too early to say he does not want to say something that might be wrong. He thinks Janov has something but does he think there is also some ‘bullshit’ in it?. Yes he does he says but he is still thinking about it is not prepared or able to say much now. But he will he has taken the fact I gave him that book seriously. I mention the German/Irish connection and just kind of chat and bullshit but I felt good that I came back did not walk out of the room with my tail between my legs so to speak. Somebody said it was good I cried being vulnerable is fine and so on.
Not much of a story really but that was the first day and I felt good about it. Later the next day I run into Dr K and he says he thought it was so good first that I could be vulnerable like that but also the fact I came back. How he liked the way I did not give up but bounced back. I have had this image of myself several times before like I am a turnip (peasant food) in a vat of water and something just pounds me on the head with a big stick but being a turnip I come back to the surface for some more (another blow). But I keep coming back some people might call that a ‘struggle’ but that seems to lie beneath a lot of my ‘fighting’ I bounce back I HAVE to bounce back otherwise I will die……………..it feels like my ‘fighting’ is overlaid on some earlier ‘survival’ situations. Anyway enough for now
Patrick, I would suppose it’s your experience with primal that made it possible for you you cry in front of the group on the cruise. Maybe you’ve gotten more benefits from therapy than you think. Phil
Phil – that’s true I would say.
Holy, fuck,Patrick !! you are so far out in front man with real feeling. Coming back for more..
It’s interesting (to me at least) Dr K posted his impressions of the week 50 of them and 2 of them mentioned me. First one was “11. Patrick not giving up, but digging deeper”. That I am sure refers to what I talked about before. The other impression was “39. Patrick in deep need for an orange robe………..all week”
Orange robe is another name for ‘cults’ and I was ‘joking’ about that and at times ‘serious’ too. LIke me and my roomate on the trip started a whole joking thing about that. How do you spot a “Kruiser” they DO wear orange glasses at night to screen out bright lights I do that too……………..anyway the boat has about 3,000 people on it and there were 32 of “us” so I would joke how ‘practical’ it would be if we all wore orange robes. We could spot each other so easily. So I would go on about how it was a ‘practical’ problem I was trying to solve
Anyway that aside……………..I think he picks up on something there like I am the one with a concern about ‘cults’ but really I am the cult member the one who needs the orange robes. Also the fact he says “all week” like I did not relax or be able to go with the flow which is basically true.
It’s interesting also there is a retreat going on this week which I am not going to or really have no desire to …………………but it’s like I am ‘doing’ a retreat where it is not really wanted or understood……………….there is some deep alienation there I feel ‘safer’ with strangers than with my own type…………….there I feel stifled I want to voyage away somewhere where it will the a challenge the result is in deep doubt……………..I do not feel at home anywhere…………….I am “a traveler between two worlds one dead the other powerless to be born”………….that’s a quote I did not write that Matthew Arnold I think……………
well i wrote something and should have dcne it in word first, deleted it by mistake, damn
When my Mom was dying she told me the story about my birth or really the day I was born. It was August time to ‘bring in the hay’. They would ‘save’ the hay and put in these big piles we call them ‘winds’ not sure if that is even a word or spelled correctly maybe ‘wydnes’. These would be out in the fields and left there for maybe a few months it did something to the hay, allowed it to cool off or something.
But a VERY big day on the farm would be ‘bringing in the hay’ that is putting it in place for the winter where literally the animals would live off of it until the Spring and Summer came. It was the main food store for the animals for the coming Winter and it goes without saying how important it was. In later years that I can remember we had a ‘shed’ or what would be here called a ‘barn’ so bringing the hay in there would not be such a problem, just wait for a good weather day and bring it in. But the things is in 1952 the year I was born my Dad did not have a hay shed. He just had to make a bigger pile outside and protect it against rain etc with some kind of thatch roof. Many of the other farmers though ‘poorer’ than my Dad had a shed even my Mom’s people poorer and more ‘primitive’ than my Dad had one. A bit typical of my Dad he had a car which almost nobody else except the priest and the doctor had. He was kind of ‘big shot’ in his own mind (remind you of anyone lol) but kind of deficient in basic things. And that was one of the (many) things that irritated my Mom about him. Kind of a dreamy impractical person unlike her.
So the big day is bringing in the hay……………..my Dad has organized a bunch or neighbors/workers to help him it’s a big job needs a lot of work. Anyway everything is laid out whatever they put on the ground etc……………..and disaster of disasters it starts to rain. This is a major problem some of the hay it already on the ground problem can be solved I suppose put some kind of ‘tarp’ on it do they have ‘tarps’? they have something I suppose and there is the issue of the workers send them home whatever just a kind of big problem
Another ‘problem’ announces itself in the form of me inside my Mom announcing my intention to be born in the form of a massive pain (to her). So it’s a ‘medical emergency’ for her she needs to be taken to the Hospital 20 miles away. But my Dad HAS a car and somehow he deals with the workers and the hay and the rain and drives her to the Hospital. At that point the film goes blank (in her description) but she tells me later in the afternoon my Dad meets one of the neighbors in that town as he is going about his business and the neighbor tells him he has a new son, that would be me. That’s all my Mom told me she left out all the spaces or blanks. Was she implying how unconcerned he was he found out from a neighbor he has new son? Maybe so a bit maybe how alone she felt having me by herself (tears)……………just me and her bring born into a world of pain. A world without a lot of communication or understanding. How ‘important’ it must have been to her was just a detail for my Dad on his ‘business’ things in that town
Of course later he would ‘take me away’ from her in letting people know I was his ‘favorite’ the one he thought the cleverest and smartest and quickest of wit. I was not really but he wanted that.. Anyway the point of this story (is there a point?) is my Mom told me after that experience which she made clear in her own way was horrible she told my Dad she would ‘go on strike’ give up, leave, whatever unless he got himself a hay-shed. That day was so difficult for her she would not continue living there unless he put up a hay-shed. And he did I don’t know when but my impression was it was there for the next year’s hay
So ‘what’s the feeling as Jack would say’……………………I was born in chaos and stress, things were happening around me big forces I did not understand or know but they were there interfering with the intimacy and peace I would have needed with my Mom. She told me there was an atmosphere of ‘seacharan’ that’s a Gaelic word that has a huge connotation……………..of chaos especially of stress and confusion too……………my Mom was a ‘survivor’ too she took a lesson from it it would hot be allowed to ever happen again……………it was that bad for her. When she was telling me this I felt no ‘blame’ from her about my ‘role’ in all this……………she had ‘affection’ for me I suppose like you would for a young calf or lamb not so personal but you know she wanted me to ‘survive’ too just like herself. But she was ‘mad’ at my Dad for his impracticality and I suppose his selfishness maybe by causing me to be and then just dropping everything even to be point of being told by a neighbor that I was born. He ‘heard’ about it like maybe something he would hear in the ‘news’…………….not so important to him but to her she nearly died of pain and stress and confusion. Anyway she had me and I ‘survived’ too even if I carried and do still carry the ‘imprint’ everyday of my life.
“she had ‘affection’ for me I suppose like you would for a young calf or lamb not so personal but you know she wanted me to ‘survive’ too just like herself. But she was ‘mad’ at my Dad for his impracticality and I suppose his selfishness maybe by causing me to be and then just dropping everything even to be point of being told by a neighbor that I was born. He ‘heard’ about it like maybe something he would hear in the ‘news’…………….not so important to him but to her she nearly died of pain and stress and confusion. Anyway she had me and I ‘survived’ too even if I carried and do still carry the ‘imprint’ everyday of my life.”
So!!! next step … what is the feeling for YOU … in all this?
Jack
It dredges up my overwhelming sadness, in the way, unwanted; hopelessness, and that big sickening stone in the pit of my stomach
Ok called out sick to take care of old dog. He didn’t pee most of yesterday evening and so I was worried he was getting sick, but he finally peed this morn. Took him and the other 2 dogs for a walk in Beverly Hills adjacent last night. I had dropped off Z to go lead her panel at some homeless shelter. It was not a long walk, just up and down one block. L don’t particularly enjoy that area, off Pico and La Cienaga, still not sure why. Lot of young people or apartment people, really narrow streets, but there were old trees and such, so it was ok. Then we went to the streets by the old Institute. I used to take walks there, on Saturdays when I would come to use a room and listen to music, trying to get into feelings, or to buddy with Corvette, who eventually disappeared into Santa Monica, never to be heard of again. Anyways, took the 3 dogs for a walk over there, I love the beautiful neighborhood but of course I am so jealous of the people who can afford to live there. I have to carry the old dog. Anyway, so I am home today, always feel guilty about calling out sick. I have plenty of work to do both at home and on the job. Can’t really do anything at home most of the time because if the old dog is awake, he barks when left alone. So watching another episode of House with old dog and younger dog on my bed. A nice little scene of a dead mother comforting her sick daughter in her hospital bed. Poignant. The doctors finally found a cure for her, and she was looking at her dead mom (a hallucination) and asking her if she was now going to go away, and she nodded yes, and rubbed her hand and nodded. I would put that up on youtube if I could figure out how to clip it out, but I probably wont. It did not bring tears to my eyes; it just caught my eye, I guess the rubbing of the daughter’s hand by mom. I probably had 10 months of that kind of care, just after coming out of my mom’s belly, soothing babying care. Quite a biggie experience, those 10 months. I CANT THINK OF THE WORD (maybe IMPRESSION will have to do), having that good care when the brain and skin and organs and body are giantly bursting and shooting forth like a stalk of corn in the bright sun. I could have had a cruel mother for those 10 months (or no mother) for that very impressionable time, but I got lucky about that. And I think that living in that big house near Pasadena with my mom, grandmother, aunts, and great-grandma(for a while) was also good. A bunch of women, most or all of them were Cancers, nurturing. My grandma was a bit crazy from a whole shitload of painful life, but still…I think my great-grandma used to rub my forehead when I was fussy. Anyway, I finally got the old dog to go back to sleep, I rubbed his head for 10 minutes. And thus I found time to write this. I hope everyone enjoys their retreat. I am so jealous that I cant go, which is strange because until last year, I always thought the retreats were not for me. I think I made great strides last year, even though the bucket of pain only yielded a drop of relief. And then Z lost her job, so that was the end of PT at the PI for me. Which maybe has allowed me to finally deal with my old pain, this year, slowly, feeling a tiny bit at home, just the last few months actually. With music. I had stopped listening to music for soooo long, ok I think I have reversed that course. Ok it is becoming a million degrees here in the valley. Got to pay a bill. That is going to be really hard, since something is keeping me from doing it. Time is about up though. Goodbye.
Otto, Sorry you can’t make it to the retreat, I’ll miss seeing you there. Phil
This song I have always liked very much it’s called “World Without Tears”. Thinking of my Mom her’s was not a world without tears she was a ‘cryer’ actually and thought I did not like it so much as a child because it always announced suffering and problems ahead…………….even then I suppose I felt her reality, I liked that part if I can even separate it out I used to feel tears were associated with truth even my Dad though not a ‘cryer’ sometimes in very important moments did and that sealed it for me tears were the truth. So Janov was music to my ears.
If we lived in a world without tears
How would bruises find the face to lie upon?
How would scars find skin to etch themselves into?
How would broken find the bones?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would heartbeats know when to stop?
How would blood know which body to flow outside of?
How would bullets find the guns?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would misery know which back door to walk through?
How would trouble know which mind to live inside of?
How would sorrow find a home?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would bruises find the face to lie upon?
How would scars find skin to etch themselves into?
How would broken find the bones?
If we lived in a world without tears
How would bruises find the face to lie upon?
How would scars find skin to etch themselves into?
How would broken find the bones?
How would broken find the bones?
How would broken find the bones?
Read more: Lucinda Williams – World Without Tears Lyrics | MetroLyrics
oh yeah, finally got to see the younger kid’s baby last week. kid had told us we were dead to last year around Christmas time, and he hadn’t talked to us since, but a few weeks ago, he had a job near our house so he came over wanting to know all about the shit that we put him through when he was young. some of the shit was not our fault. anyway saw his baby finally walking now. Kid does not think the baby is talking, but we heard the baby say NO and some other common word. got to go dog is waking up
Scared and apprehensive about flying to LA tomorrow for the retreat. Not looking forward to having to stand up for myself and reach out and connect there. There is such a big empty nothing and so much fear inside of me. This afternoon needing and imagining getting caring and mothering at the retreat, I cried lots of hurt and loss, and the feeling of being cast aside by coldly indifferent life. We are social beings but I got none. Life is too much to deal with all alone. Seems like what I mostly know to my core is all alone. There is only me, scared and empty, to move and motivate me into my unknown future. The future could be good. It could be fun if I could make it happen. It won’t happen when fear and emptiness paralyses me.
Barry Berfield said there was only one thing that hurts more than not getting what we want, getting it. I started therapy in August 86, went home for xmas. I hugged my father as usual and he said in my ear with his deep bass but this time trembling voice, for the 1st and only time, ” I love you David.” I said I loved him as I had always done when I hugged him.
But I turned to ice and I felt the pain in the bottom of my gut, heavy, big, burning, cutting, tearing and I had to stuff it down there not able to get it out until my wife and children left the house the next morning. I wished he had never said it.
Gov Jerry Brown apparently has just signed the mandatory vaccination law in California. This to me is a very bad omen and a very bad thing in itself. Victim parents and children can look forward to a lifetime of brain illness and all the rest of it. Most of them will not have a clue what hit them or where it is coming from. I am not saying it is only vaccines but they are a big factor elephant in the room IMO. People will and are going to doctors standard and ‘alternative’ psychiatrists and psychologists standard and ‘alternative’ with really no relief to be found. No clue what him them…………….that is deeply unfair.
You can see also how the so called ‘outbreak of measles in Disneyland’ propaganda has served it’s purpose hell even nurses in the UK wanted to vaccinate Jo to ‘protect’ against that myth. If we are to get to Dr Kruse’s ‘prediction’ that the human race will dwindle to 150,000 total humans world wide this is a start I suppose. To really get to that number I think will have to involve nations slinging nuclear bombs at each other……………….which is not too hard to imagine either. Mad world.
Usually docile Jim Carey is out front calling it Fascism. Given the latest in the Journal of Neurology it is a bad move. Politics, scare, play to the lobbyists,
attract money, get reelected…
> wow, to my great surprise, I managed to get a 7 on my statistics exam, hard to believe, as they also substract points for possible gambling answers, and in 5 of the 40 questions I noticed those differences of mine and their software..
> so after all I must have had more right answers than I thought!!
> such a nice surprise, as I was actually prepared to only get a 5.5 or so, so hurray again, smiley!
>
> a welcome boost to keep up the courage to study all those brain parts and their respective (dis)functions..
> managing to deal with some practical problems for our mom at same time, together with brother, each doing our bit, so keeping a few balls up in the air for now with success.
> hot summer weather, which I like too, and soon kittens here, a few more days only..
> hope you keep writing in this way, Patrick, sounds like you are making good progress there.
> M
A bit more about vaccines…………..I just watched this by turns gripping, frightening, appalling, fascinating, informative lecture about them. Very ironic given what has just happened in California………….it seems the human race is bent on collective suicide it is fascinating in a horrific way to even think how far things can go wrong. I like this guy also because he can duke it out with so called ‘scientists’ he is a good one himself. Phil this might be interesting for you though if you take it seriously you might have to quit your job I know that can be a major problem. Margaret you might find interesting also the use of statistics a lot of the time I still say my one off ‘experiment’ with my brother’s sheep means MORE than reams of so called ‘epidemiological’ studies. That’s not arrogance it’s just stating a fact or a fact as I see it. Also Margaret I am sorry about my communication ‘style’ or maybe non communication but if you can get yourself to watch/listen to this all the way through you may see my ‘concern’ for you cats goes a little bit beyond seeing things in ‘black and white’. If you want to see things in color watch or just listen to this. A true mind blower to me anyway and I thought I knew the worst…………………it is so bad that it is hard to get or go there to how bad it is I mean. Gotta go off for the day now…………..
Patrick,It seems to me that the whole vaccine controversy probably has more to do with feelingscaused by big government, big pharma, …….big whatever, (big Mommy and Daddy?) and not anything actual. The new law signed by Jerry Brown is no doubt stirring up more feelings.Phil Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 18:54:41 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Except Dr. Russell Blaylock is a highly respected board certified Neurosurgeon. And he is but one of hundred’s of MD’s ringing alarm bells. Putting their careers even medical licenses on the line to stand up for what they believe to be the caveats. Former WHO, and CDC scientists, Big Pharma Scientists who have left cozy tenured salaried positions to speak out.
Hardly reasonable that all of them are informed from being frightened, uninformed, impressionable, neurotics, while the vaxxxers are unquestionably the good guys.
Recalcitrance against thinking outside the Top Down dictated box is not Jim dandy healthy either.That’s very much a mommy daddy unresolved issue.
So is joining in to piss on one identified target. That’s bully behavior. A need for the pack because of a lack of individual felt security.
What kind of people would Dr. Janov, Barry and Gretchen be, if they met every applicant, pissed on them, out intellectualized them, out rationalized them, called them losers, for being fucked up and told them to go away ?
This sucks and I’m pissed !! That’s a feeling, too.
David, You and Patrick are beating a dead horse over and over. It’s dead, why can’t you let it go. Is it so currently relevant to your own healthor Patrick’s ? I just don’t get it. Phil Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:45:17 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – It may be ‘over’ as you put it ……………………..for California’s and much of the world’s children……………….and primal therapy will be powerless to help, way too much damage done……………..
Vaccination probably could have some beneficial effects but not as toted and not as delivered. The benefits are way overstated and the dangers and damage hidden; until now when medical doctors are beginning to blow it out of the water. I know very little but nearly 40 years of trying to learn from unbiased science has been somewhat fruitful. The community of medical doctors and other health care medical practitioners with whom I communicate around the world can’t all be plain stupid. I’m sure Jerry Brown’s former lobbyist activities on behalf of a pharmaceutical company has not influenced his actions. But it does show how he thinks, conventionally and minimalistically.
Patrick and David,There is a vaccine for shingles and recommended yearly vaccines for the flufor older people. In view of our discussion here I recommend not getting those vaccines.Don’t get any boosters either.Now we should be allset.
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:45:17 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
The subject is that in this case Patrick presented compelling new evidence that vaccines cause damage to the brains of developing fetuses. We came to Primal to try to remedy our brain damage, the damage of every cell in our bodies which we believe are caused by assaults on our developing emotional self. The perception I glean is that he is poopooed and abused just some silly misguided misanthrophic boy and the salient information is pissed on. Grow up, engage respectfully and, “you’ll,” be good.
The subject is that in this case Patrick presented compelling new evidence that vaccines cause damage to the brains of developing fetuses. We came to Primal to try to remedy our brain damage, the damage of every cell in our bodies which we believe are caused by assaults on our developing emotional self. The perception I glean is that he is poopooed and abused just some silly misguided misanthrophic boy and the salient information is pissed on. Grow up, engage intelligently and respectfully in the presence of dissenting information and, “you’ll,” be good.
My Medical Doctor agrees with you; Phil; she says do not take shingles nor flu vaccines. She does have confidence in Pneumovax.
David: There are a couple of things in this last comment of yours that I would like to take exception to. The first is to designate Dr. Blaycock a highly respected board certified Neurosurgeon. On that count I feel stongly that all the neuro therorist in the medical world misses out on Janov’s discovery, and I personally would NOT, for all their titles, give them much credit. But then that’s just ME.
Primal Theory for me, put all those guys in the medical closet and closed the door. I do however see that vacinations were an attempt to take the diseases of neurotic humans and attempt to create a remedy. Where I feel the discovery of Primal Pain left most of that in the dust, was that:- where we not made neurotic in the first place, primarily by mommy and daddy; then perpetuated by the neuroic civilization from there-on-in … our natural imune suystems would have protected us from needing vaccines … BUT and here is the big “but” … since mommy and daddy DID ‘fuck’ our natural imune systems up; maybe vacinations for most, left with their neurosis, is one meager step to somewhat of a prevention. I personally am on the route to getting back (via Feeling and their respective full expressions) to my natural imune system. That for me, is via Primal Therapy. The rest missed the genius of “The Discovery of Primal Pain”
Jack
With all due respect Jack to you and my total respect for the theory and clinical expertise of Dr. Janov, if I am in an accident and suffer brain injury or have an aneurysm I want that neuro surgeon. If I suffer extensive bone breakage I want that orthopedic surgeon , not exclusively herbal tea. I am not so arrogant as to think other disciplines have no place Dr. Blacklock is a specialist in his field. He has researched the effects of vaccines on infant brain development. Recent science discovered that the brain has a lymphatic system and that injectables cross the blood brain barrier and cause impairment to the developing brain. Dr. Janov sings the praises of the Science of Epigenetics, and employs neurologists and other medical specialists to interpret observed changes in
patients. So apparently he does not view them with hostility, nor dismiss them as know nothings.
In the area of disease I believe Allopathic medicine has shown itself to be an abject failure. And there are hosts of us,including medical doctors who believe the same.. In those conditions I want a Naturopath and a skilled Homeopath. The science showing the failure, baloney, and damage caused by vaccine and vaccine delivery systems is meticulously documented. Those who support it and those who sell it do not discourage business.
My deceased daughter’s heart according to her Cardiologist was damaged in utero when our caring and best intentioned GP injected my wife with an anti Ruebella vaccine early in her 2nd trimester of pregnancy, because a child suspected to be with measles had visited the clinic that day. That child he said had been previously immunized but he wanted to be safe.
If I have a financial windfall, I’ll be back in LA, after assessing whether I return to the Primal Institute where I know I’m welcome or to try to beg my way into Dr. Janov’s clinic based on his published continued research, including new ways all of the time to better serve patients. There are NO Failed Primal patients only failed therapy, due to not knowing at that point in time what to do to help that patient.. May I never be compelled to utter such needless hurtful diatribe to anyone. If I dislike someone’s behaviour I stay away, do them no harm, wish them no harm.
.The therapists do their best as practitioners based on what tools they have accumulated at any point in time. Being smart is but one cog on the wheel.
David
David: That’s fine.
Jack
Phil – to me that is the kind of narrow ‘reductionist’ attitude that has led to the death of primal therapy. Something that has no room and destroys more than it encourages. It has died in case you haven’t noticed ongoing retreats not-withstanding
To be clear I don’t believe it HAS to die or SHOULD die or even that it cannot rise again in a better form but from all I see it will have to be well outside ‘institutional’ primal as we now have it.
Talking of reduction(isms), I would have thought that just 30 people on a cruise with Kruse never really took off excpt with those 30 odd folks. I know for you, Primal has been dead for sometime, BUT that’s just you. I doubt that PG could contribute to a revival of PT (therapy or theory) .. in any other form.
Either Primal Theory is totally redundant and SO, you’ve been pursuing a redundancy, such then there will be no revival OR, it is very much alive and will be revived intact. If not then as you state it’s ALL dead … you and me included. Since as Kruse predicts there will only be 150,000 left and I doubt anyone one of them are likely to have heard of Jack Kruse or Arthur Janov. They no doubt will die off, and then all we will be left with is the earth twirling around our solar sun until the very end of time. Without any pussy cats or your brother’s sheep even.
Jack
Patrick , ya silly boy; now be a nice lad and run along now. Don’t ya know you’re playin’ over your head here. Go ’round to the other side of the school where ya can hold yer own with yer age mates. Scoot now before we have ta reprimand ya. Fuck, I don’t know why you even try, Patrick. You’re Primal to the bone; and you have a thinking brain. I think I’ve come to understand that when you start explaining something you are taking, or overcome with, a multi facted input and you assemble as you talk. Evening questioning the information as you do so. I’m told geniuses do that. It takes a little more effort than, “Dick and Jane,” dialogue to follow; ” Run Tom, run. See Flip run……”
Why don’t you start your own Primal blog.
My respects to you sir.
David, It could be that Patrick just wants to “poke” us with this vaccine thing. Margaret for some reason. And I don’t agree on his views, in my case, and Jack for other reasons. But I don’t have to agree, do I? Maybe when it strikes me I’ll look into the issue yet again. But I will investigate it myself. It’s just this kind of fixation or obsession on this issue (vaccines) We are maybe 7 active bloggers here. What is the importance of convincing us. That’s what makes me wonder what drives it. If it is so important, contact elected officials or join a demonstration. But why harangue us with it here. I’m just not receptive towards things presented in this way. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
David commented on: Remembering Summer comments page two.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two#comment-20717) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/remembering-summer-comments-page-two)
This was in response to Phil:
Intellectualize all you want. Act precious. Be paranoid, recalcitrant. I have no vested interest in your life. The more I hear you the more you sound like a robotic game player. I am accustomed to well ,” educated,” well socialized friends sharing info often. I don’t question their reasons. That’s how we keep up to date. I know how to do due diligence. Six more Black congregation churches were burned in South Carolina this week. And ,” we’re,” closeted to our little elitist me, me, me ?? There’s a whole world out there and maybe it’s my wrong upbringing but I big boy care and I was taught to do something about what you can effect.
Phil – you very much mis-understand what I am doing here. It has nothing to do with ‘poking’ really it’s as simple as what I am interested in and thinking about at this point in time. All of this vaccine business happened by accident I heard a Gary Null interview with Janine Roberts in the middle of the night when I had trouble sleeping.
I thought and read more……………..and then it occurred to me about Margaret and how her cat was it seems always sick. Purely from curiosity I started to ask her about her ‘shots’ etc. At the same time I started talking to my brother in Ireland. All of this just happened but you know I am ‘excited’ about finding out stuff I talk about it here.
“Here” to is WHATEVER we are interested in, whatever is going on with us, if I am ‘up the pole’ hopefully I will find out in my own way and in my own time.To me there should be no ‘should’ if that is not too absurd, no ‘approved’ topics no praise for ‘feeling’ and sarcasm and disdain about ‘thinking’ As humans we have all of these aspects and many more I really don’t like the kind of ‘praising’ some topics and disdain for others.
This is probably enough for now on this topic (vaccines) and I will try I promise to keep a light touch about it for now but it is important to me that you understand what drives me and motivates me. Are there sub-conscious other things that drive me…………..of course there are am I still acting out being ‘top of the class’ I am sure I have not left that totally behind but this to use a cliche is a journey not a destination. I think the only real ‘destination’ of life is when we die so please let me wander on my journey. I think we would both be the better for it
Hadn’t you already gone “OFF” a bit before you even started ?????
Patrick!!! it seems to me you do not understand what you are doing. You are on a Primal Institute blog … flogging you little theories to do all in you power to show that you are the only bright one around.
Go back to Kunstler .he’s more in your line of head stuff.
From knowing you all these years you always pick the wrong modus, wrong girl friend wrong arguments from the wrong end of the stick. You’re tiresome..
Jack
I think the sharing of pertinent information related to health is relevant regardless of the focal intent of the blog. People concerned for people, friends, associates seems progressive.
David; the relevant word in your comment was “pertinent”
Wouldn’t it be equally pertinent to show the ill health effects of ingesting arsenic, in that case?
It’s not what Patrick is attempting to show, but the manner in which he delivers it. Which is why I stated that IMO he little knows what he’s doing. Coined by Janov on several occasions as being on “Automatic Pilot”.
Jack
Jack either I am a poor communicator and am unable to use the inane comparison as a tool or you need to read more carefully. Ingesting arsenic effects, really, Jack. It’ll fuckin kill ya…
cheers
David – I am moved by some of the things you say and I don’t think it is just ‘support’ not there is anything wrong with support………….but what I feel is ‘understanding’ I have felt (here) misunderstood for a very long time now. Part of it for sure is my fault I get involved in fights and am easily provoked and I have a lot of anger/disappointment about the way primal actually worked out or rather did not for me.I could have been more honest about all that but I think it’s the fear of failure or the fear of being called a failure is so huge for me. I mentioned before I was always ‘top of the class’ so some of these things are very convoluted and hard for me to un-entangle
Gretchen who IS a smart cookie at one of the retreats I was at about 2 years ago gave me the WORD ‘mis-understood’ and I have to say it rings a loud bell now. To come at something with such force and intensity and to be pooh poohed so much well it hurts or maybe better to say it has hurt. Today not so much I am feeling my way out of this. You say I am ‘primal to the bone’ I’d say that is accurate even on the Cruise I was in one way or another trying to get it in in many different contexts and situation. I gave “The Feeling Child” to my bunk-mate a lovely Canadian woman as it turns out but she showed no interest.
I cried quite intensely 4 different times on the Cruise and in front of people too………………and I suppose what made it ‘real’ is it is not ‘expected’ of me I feel even it is not appreciated but somehow that makes it more real. At the retreats that kind of thing is ‘approved’ so to me well it does not feel ‘real’ so much.Like I am just being a good boy and doing what is expected of him……………….again my problem (By crying where it is not appreciated could be called ‘acting out’ my situation with my family but that’s the way my cookie crumbles)
I am aware even this is quite personal to me and in that sense strictly my problem………….but I think it shows how subtle and delicate the process of feeling is. We are doing brain surgery without scalpels I think it is good to be humble and realize the tricky nature of what we are engaged in. Art Janov said it was all so simple………………and at bottom it is but ‘getting there’ is the tricky part
I am rambling around here but I want to tell you again I appreciate your presence here so much David – combined with some of the people I met with on the Cruise and other things happening I feel a new day dawning. Thank you again.
Patrick, you’re a good boy, pat, pat, as in ,”pat,” not Pat, short for Patrick, performed by the rules of acceptable conduct, and have been given a conditional hall pass… Noe sin no more…
Reminds me my 3 week therapist L. (yes I still remember those days) told me to be careful if my answers became too ‘pat’. And he joked about that like pat was being too ‘pat’ I did take his point which was I intellectualize to the point where everything is explained so nothing left to feel………….are you being ironic here something I am not quite sure you are saying………….
> David,
> your reply to phil feels so ful of disdain, so rude and arrogant, and disrespectful.
> you so often claim to be nice and polite and well-educated but too often I see you go off trying to tackle someone in a very hurtful personal way, without any real basis to do so, and without knowing them at all.
> not nice to watch, and it to me is a big warning sign to stay clear of you as much as possible.
>
> in this case Patricks reply to Phil was much more sensible and polite, good on you Patrick.
> M
I never claim to be well educated, that would be pompous. I do a lot of research and am privileged to be included in discussions with well educated, well socialized, people, most of them women who I find more emotionally intact.
My neurotic head has composed a lot of dialogue/soliloquy with/to you, that would waste space here detailing. Attacking you, explaining me to you, all of the facts that would convince you I am a good boy, I don’t care, all of those rounds.
Wow, Margaret, that cut deep; the word hurt is a catch all; it brought up that old darkest fear of my existence being threatened in me. So my break time is over, feeling time is here. I recognize when I really have nothing but bland head talk to say so I’ll stop. Man I want to be hurtful right back.
We both seem to be rescuers.
David – I feel like saying to you ‘there is no need to be discouraged’ I am pretty sure anything ‘bad’ or whatever said about you has been said about me in ‘spades’. And I ‘survived’ it of course we are all different but I feel like saying ‘don’t leave’ or don’t give up or whatever (for my own reasons too of course)
Maybe you were a bit ‘rude’ to Phil but really so what……………….IMO he kind of ‘deserves’ it too he sort of poses as someone who knows something about say vaccines etc………..to me he does not know so much maybe he ‘works’ in the field which is FAR from knowing much. Unfortunately nowadays it usually translates to being a functionary of a very poor system……………not the same as ‘knowing’ anything
The kind of stuff Margaret said to you she has said to me MANY times and I have lived to tell the tale. My take is she does not need to jump in to ‘defend’ Phil he can do that for himself if he wants to. Of course here I am jumping in to ‘defend’ you things can be absurd like that…………..
“hey baby………………there ain’t no easy way out”
HOUSE AMBER BUS EPISODES DEATH TEARS
Quite by accident I read in a local paper there was an anti-vaccine demonstration in Santa Monica this afternoon so I went. About 1,000 people there I estimate maybe a bit less, Channel 7 and Channel 4 were there surprisingly to me.
I found the whole thing moving and quite sad……………..many mothers there reaping the sad harvest of this totally bogus ‘science’ It starts to feel like 1984 the book only worse. Apparently they have about another 135 vaccines ‘on deck’ waiting for their chance to deploy them. They will also since the basically have the kids already push for more and more adult vaccines. In employment starting now with day care workers teachers also I think, The thin end of the wedge you can imagine fast food workers might be next or just about anybody in any dealings with the public. One can only hope they will reach too far but I sense the opposition is weak. This whole thing is so absurd it would be laughable if the consequences were not so serious.They are also starting to tie it in with travel…………….I can imagine a day when you cannot travel to other countries with proof of vaccination. The whole thing as bad as it is now they have more and bigger plans to ramp it up. Quite scary stuff.
Louis Farrakhan’s people (Nation of Islam)were there not himself but a real look alike. The leader Tony Muhammed spoke a fine speech but again I wonder really what they can do. (Farrakhan of course as far as the media are concerned might as well not exist since he has been tarred as an ‘anti-semite’ the death knell for anyone’s career. I think he was just not on board with what Israel is doing hence the bogus charge. Lucky my career days are over so i can speak a little bit about that) The quite well known British doctor Andrew Wakefield was there and I spoke to him. He said his wife was Irish and he still had problems figuring out what she was saying. He also gave a fine speech.
They are looking for signature gatherers for a ballot initiative they need 400,000 signatures I think I will volunteer to do that as they are looking for volunteers. I was glad I went it was quite moving even if in a sad and kind of desperate way.
Dr Wakefield mentioned the huge power of the drug companies and the ‘parasites and carper-baggers who trail in their wake. I have to admit I thought of Phil when he said that
So!!!! what has any of this got to do with Feelings, Primal Therapy or anything other than your own bandwagon????
Jack
Be fair now Jack, it impacts humans, in particular fetal brains, of whom we are so rightfully fond. I know how you feel. If I’m a bit agitated I some times feel the same way about simple social chit chat here. Then I think, that it reflects us as whole people, ingrown toe nails, loves, losses. I was able to write about the death of my 4 year old daughter with nary a criticism for being irrelevant. Actually nary any kind of comment. It was my experience but also feeling charged. So lots of off label stuff passes as being unremarkable.
I’m prejudiced because I’m for social responsibility. That’s what the thousands of medical doctors opposed to vaccines have been saying, they can ring the alarm bells but citizens have to put boots on the streets and pressure on the politicians. One thing they know for sure is they want to keep their cushy jobs. Good to see your out there, Patrick. The last campaign I involved myself in here was a cut to in home services for the elderly. Amazing when reporters start covering discontent. Mr. Schwarzenegger says Jerry Brown is playing politics, diverting attention, making it appear that he’s doing something. In this case waging a war against a non existent enemy.
Wildlife specialists report increased disease across the populations.
The character, reputation, and career assassination of Dr. Wakefield by a lying, disgraced, pharmaceutical industry hired gun reporter, shines the power of a mammoth industry. It was a months work of tedious effort to ferret out the truths there. It began falling apart after the London Times said that guy was lying when he claimed to work for them. By that time the damage had been done to Wakefield, but the medical community momentum dedicated to furthering the known facts gathered steam as they recognized the ruthlessness of the industries feeling threatened.
Weird, that 150,000 population number is exactly the number quoted in a paper co created by WHO and the CDC for the 1993 World Banking Association
Annual Meeting. Only it suggested that that is all of the humans needed with modern systems in place and that we mere dispensable peons were using up the air and currency of the entitled worthy. It was passed out at a Health Care meeting I was attending. And I thought, ” How paranoid is that ?” hmmmm…
It also named the board members for all of the major organizations and most were exactly the same names. Just dedicated folks I guess.
“waging a war against a non existent enemy”,,,,,,,,,,,,,,kind of sums up so much of what the US does in the world war on drugs, war on cancer, war on terror all lost before they start because it is not an honest agenda
Another thing that came up at the demo was medical marijuana for children. You know this whole movements about getting hold of a special marijuana oil to stop seizures etc. The speaker used the phrase ‘micro-glial activation’ which is a word for brain inflammation leading to seizures and things like that. Well it seems some of the drug companies are against the marijuana and trying to stop it but ARE working on a synthetic pill for the same condition. And they talked about the horror of these companies first off CAUSING the problem and now presenting themselves as the CURE and of course making money off both ends. And I think that is the way it is going. They also as I suspected very much tied in SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome to vaccines
Reminds me again of Margaret and her cat she is dealing with ‘vets’ who are constantly giving the cat it’s ‘shots’ and and also there mopping up with all their drugs, creams, suits etc.Please Margaret try not to take this personally you are no different than these innocent mothers dealing with life long problems in their children. I understand it goes against nature and common sense not to trust or listen to your vet and yet that seems to be the best course of action
135 new vaccines in preparation……………….I didn’t know there were that many ‘diseases’ well there will be more than that if they manage to deploy them…………….
Quote:- “Reminds me again of Margaret and her cat she is dealing with ‘vets’ who are constantly giving the cat it’s ‘shots’ and and also there mopping up with all their drugs, creams, suits etc.Please Margaret try not to take this personally ……..”
You are an idiot, ass-hole, a very disturbed person and a twisted brain …. but PLEASE do not take it personally. Do you even know what you are saying, thinking????????
I’m not sure if you have a serious COMPULSION with cats, vets or, Margaret … but you seem unable to refrain from adding them to your comments. What is the matter with you??? Seriously!!!
Jack
I adopted once from a shelter. I spent several weeks visiting with this brilliant lab shepherd cross. One condition for adoption was neutering. I support that.
When I picked up my neutered dog I now had an absolute idiot, not the brilliant, well socialized guy I had interacted with and brought home for several weekends. He had to be re house trained, and that really, entailed training me, because he was dually incontinent, and chewed wooden furniture. The poor guy would suddenly start crying, beat his head on the floor, the wall. And claw at it until he drew blood. I called the shelter and they suggested euthanizing him. Acupuncture and Homeopathy gave him relief, but he was never again normal, could not handle changes, like me bringing my bike in the hallway when it rained. Before the surgery I would take him on an old logging trail and he would run along side my bike. After the surgery he would attack my bike and I had to short leash him on walks on bike pedestrian bike paths. That may have explained my personality altered neutered cats. I blamed myself for causing them separation anxiety from the 3 day hospital experience. My beautiful Mitsu had an at home vet neutering and seemed not impacted.
I contacted another vet, a PHd, and former Pharmacist, who asked me if the dog had been given any shots close to the time of the surgery. My bill showed he had been given a full suite. He said that was the reason, that the vaccines had crossed the blood brain barrier via the appropriate carrier in the anesthetic, and had caused permanent brain damage. I shared this with the older vet at the shelter. He was aware of the science but chose to not believe it.
Most recently it has been scientifically established that the brain has its own lymphatic system and that injectbles do cross the blood brain barrier causing brain injury. Like the tobacco industry there is now a deny, deny, deny, damage control, and intellectual rebuffs to existing documentation.
I realize it is likely totally gratuitous to mention that the illegalization of cannabis was political, suppressing competition with synthetic textiles and synthetic drugs. The first step was to include it in the medically prescribed category and tax it, then illegalization. It’s value as tax revenue will lead to legalization again. I suspect inhaling smoke room any source is unhealthy. UCLA Med School, Sou Cal, in the early 70’s quoted research claiming that the kindling temperature of cannibis was higher than tobacco, increasing in its various refined products, so that the oils seared delicate respiratory and lung tissue. I was dong some street social work and used med info and not boogie man tactics to educate youth. Never occurred to me in my naivete of my younger years that that med info was simply invented, like optimum blood pressure, body temp , etc. Lots of stuff for likely non malicious reasons.
My oncologist friend says the campaign against smoking tobacco was mainly fueled by the fact that tobacco tar was needed by industry to replace coal tar, and petroleum in the manufacture of artificial colorings and flavorings and pharmaceuticals. No dispute that it was not a health promoting habit, but like JACK says money and capitalism are prominent culprits.
I went to the beach yesterday I suppose in attempt to ‘prove’ to myself that the ocean is dying………….I know little about it but the most obvious thing I look for is the pelicans. Those great swooping birds like airplanes but with better control. They use to swoop all around me and just hang in the air and then let gravity do it’s thing drop with great force and plunge head first into the ocean. At first I thought they were playing but it seems it was all about the food….the fish.
Anyway go there……………….not one not even one to be seen. I ask the lifeguard is it a seasonal thing? He doesn’t know, I ask what does he think is happening. He says it might be different currents, El Nino whatever they follow where the food is coming from or going to.He doesn’t know I leave it at that. I suspect the worst but what’s the point of ‘proving’ it. Though I have a drive to do that too it would somehow confirm my world view My ‘world view’ that nature is dying and it’s really just a matter of time. We are not ‘special’ we are part of nature and our time is coming. And really it’s only just……………we have done and caused all this mayhem, why should we be spared if the innocent penguin isn’t. We shouldn’t and we won’t.
It’s a big thing for me………………..I kind of moved my focus from the ‘inside’ and thought I found something in the ‘outside’ nature in all it’s glory and variety. Something that was ‘real’ in the immediate sense and something to read about and wonder at too……………….but it seems to be another false hope or doomed promise whatever words you want to use. NIck Barton (a primal therapist for those not in the know) one time wrote that the big irony of ‘doom and gloom’ people especially about predicting that (future tense) is that it has/had already happened. Well yes…………………and no too. The cruelty humans have visited on their children has consequences and they are now playing out in the destruction of nature and maybe all life except bacteria probably. The pain of infancy and childhood was like a preview for the horror show to come………….
Asteroid at my back
Past,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Asteroid coming towards me
Future……………….
Does’t leave much
Here in the middle ground
begging for time
begging for attention
begging for love
soon……………..
begging for food
begging for mercy
begging for time
still…………….
Wow, brilliantly stated, Patrick. No wonder sadness is so ubiquitous. david
David: The significance of Patrick’s quote of Nick Barton was that the greatest of our sadness’s lies in the past. Whilst there is lots of sadness in the present, for the most part most of it is triggered by our past sadness’s. I see nothing enlightening in YOUR comment:- “No wonder sadness is so ubiquitous.” The sadness is not in looking into the future, since “the future” is the absolute UNKNOWN. Seeing our “gloom and doom” and being sad about it was:- as I feel Nick Barton was attempting to portray, is in the past … that for the most part is laying dormant in the subconscious.
Jack
oh, I neglected to insert a comma after wonder; I must have been in a coma.. coma…. comma ?? I have known relatively few people, no patients, who experienced an enriching early life.
The past informs the lens to the future though Jack, whether clear or distorted by old pain.
There could be a break through there, postulating that early life sadness effects us later on… sorry, couldn’t help myself….
David: the insertion of that comma would have made a huge difference; in that I would have known that you were saying … in essence:- “that sadness is sad”. Sort of obvious, yeah!!!!
Jack
No, Jack, that sadness is so prevalent that the collective response to the future is interpreted though that lens, the past, repressed feelings; sadness, fear, panic, hate, aggression, blind spots, displacement, sublimation.
A patient of mine, a Baptist cleric, spontaneously dropped all of those religious trappings, when he felt being unloved , helpless, and hopeless. That affected lens became inane for him. No one suggested that to him. And had it been suggested before he felt those things, a huge academic argument would have ensued in defense of godianity.
David: I agree that it MAY be being interpreted through that lens, but that is not how I charactgerized it. I was not concerned at the point of your comment (first and/or second) how it was it being interpreted, but rather suggesting that you were stating the obvious with little ‘purpose’ to your original feeling about Patrick’s comment.
‘
I accept being corrected by my use of “purvey” and agree it would have been simpler to say “convey”. I also liked the story about the Baptist cleric. That to me is Primal Therapy at it’s best. Much of what we feel and think pre-therapy is often turned on it’s head, when we start to get into feelings and expressing them. In my own case; I was in my adult life, quite unaware of how as a child I was terrifyingly shy. A sort of expectation the guillotine would chop off my head at any given moment … unless ……….!!!!
That all that had been repressed in my adult mind is to me, ‘the very nature (essence) of neurosis’. Now me; stating the obvious.
Jack
Quote:- “NIck Barton (a primal therapist for those not in the know) one time wrote that the big irony of ‘doom and gloom’ people especially about predicting that (future tense) is that it has/had already happened.”
If I remember rightly, Nick Barton said at a retreat group:- “The worst has already happened” I would add to that:- ‘Other than our own actual death … the worst HAS already happened’.
The significance of what I feel he was trying to purvey was that ‘the gloom and doom’ we personally feel is in the past … should we be able to go back and re-live it, is the only way to resolve it. For the future all we can do is feel and express the present. All the REAL guru’s have been trying to teach us for centuries.
Meantime I agree that we humans are not on any great path; collectively, towards a great future of the generations to come. I contend the problem is “NEUROSIS”. Yep, just one little word … with huge implications.
Jack
Hi Jack. I agree that doomsday has already happened. I use to think that something bad was going to happen, but I think my body was trying to tell me that it already had. As I began to re-experience those terrifying past feelings (of my tiny self) my thoughts of bad things to come has dissipated. And I think I am less drawn to and entangled in the real environmental threats around us. I still care, but don’t feel the hopelessness that somehow was attached to it before.
Also I wanted to ask Margaret: have you heard of “Be My Eyes”. I don’t know if you had mentioned it here or not. It is an app that you can get on your I-phone or I-pad. It connects sighted volunteers with blind persons who need visual assistance. You point your phone at a product (can of soup, piece of mail etc.) and the volunteer will view and tell you what they see. It is free and comes in 35 languages.
Sylvia: It goes without saying that feeling the unutterable devastation of the past makes the present way less daunting. Yes: if we wish to dwell on the future things look pretty grim … but to be for ever consumed by an unknown, assumed doomsday, is likely to make living in the ‘now’, a real burden as you stated.
I feel strongly that if we could put it all in the right perspective (whatever is assumed to be the ‘right perspective’), we just might be able to prevent a great deal of what is a potential future. It is my feeling that the future generations are NOT going to look back on us with any great reverence … in–spite of all the science and technology that abounds. Just as our generation is not all that enamored of past generations either. It’s the aspect upon which we view it all, that matters.
For my part, I am greatly thrilled with my therapy … not that it is all ‘hunky dorey’ for the most part. But hay hoo; life’s short, and I feel we don’t get a second shot.
Take care Sylvia. Maybe we can read more of your insights, and revelations in your therapy. That, I feel, would be very therapeutic for many of us.
Jack
Hi Jack. Thank you for your receptive words. Speaking of past generations, I lament that new moms can no longer stay home with their babies like was customary in past generations. Now a few weeks home and off back to work. Finances have become more important for survival supposedly than what is natural. Future generations of patients, I guess.
Sylvia: Yep!!! what we deem as “fiances” has taken over our lives … when, by my reckoning, none of was ever necessary in the first place.
We’ve created a society (civilization system) by “piece meal” In other words, we invented money to control the other guy, then we needed a policing system to make sure every one paid, and then we created prisons for that that refused to pay, then we created a military just in case another society didn’t do it our way, and on and on and on. We are for ever patching up the system … of quilts, until everything is now a fucking mess, which we all know … but feel we can nothing about it … so we vote for whomever makes the best promise, only to discover that once they have the power, they will do it their way and if we protest then we bring in those of us peons, that became policemen to make sure it’s done their way. and now moms are totally unable to look after their off-springs, and the off-springs grow up to become so called terrorist, and so we now have to invent another whole mode of warfare to conquer them, because no-one want to join the military and get killed; and somehow, through what is deemed technology we will create robots to do it all for us and guess what? … the robots will take over our lives and it will become unlivable for all of us.
If we were to go back to square one (money) and abolish it … all else would fall into place … since that was how it was in the very first place before we came out of the trees in the topics. BUT, oh no say the Walton’s…. not because they are happy, but because they want to remain the privileged ones. What a farce … and unwittingly we all support it … then we become diseased with incurable diseases, and die a miserable death.
Hope that doesn’t depress you … too much.
Jack
That’s okay Jack. I may have to dig out a Disney video to cheer me up or a puppy video online. But the way my computer is acting I might have to turn around and play with my real dog. Have to remember how to act human sometimes.
Disney never did cheer me up … I had to rely on snaps and snails and puppy dogs tails, since I was always told (by my sister in particulare) that, that was what boys were made of. 🙂 .
I did tell you, and you should now feel warned that robots were going to take over. Well, as I said they have a mind of their own and fuck knows who their mommy and daddy was!! It is my feeling Sylvia that you don’t have to remember how to act human … me thinks; it comes naturally to you 😛 .
JackDisney never did cheer me up … I had to rely on snaps and snails and puppy dogs tails, since I was always told (by my sister in particulare) that, that was what boys were made of. 🙂 .
I did tell you, and you should now feel warned that robots were going to take over. Well, as I said they have a mind of their own and fuck knows who their mommy and daddy was!! It is my feeling Sylvia that you don’t have to remember how to act human … me thinks; it comes naturally to you 😛 .
Jack
I think the correct word is ” convey,” not “purvey,” Jack. And the interpretation is rather gratuitous. I think a bit of neucrosis creeps in, too.
Barry once said, half the people coming to therapy think the cause of their problems is in the past. They’re wrong. The other 1/2 think the cause of their problems is in the present, And, they’re wrong.
The courage to change after all of that old shit is felt can for some be a now issue.
Vaccines are irrelevant really in the big picture and the long run……………it’s just I believe they are hastening the destruction of the human race and animals too……………..maybe a collective death wish that is just playing out.
I just spoke to my brother he has 93 yews and this year (no vaccines) had no miscarriages. He said the ‘expected’ rate (that would be ‘standard’ vaccinated sheep) is about 10%. I asked him how many mis-carriages did he have last year out the 93. 9 or 10 he said and that was typical of former years. Another tiny bit of ‘data’ I don’t need to say if a mother mis-carries it is nature’s way of saying ‘no bueno’……………..this will probably not work out too well.
And I believe for that and other reasons things are not working out too well and ‘it will get worse before it get’s better’ it it ever does. A vain hope it seems to me.
If “Vaccines are irrelevant really in the big picture and the long run”, why the fuck are you still going on and on about them???
Tell us about YOUR NOTION of the “big picture” and the “long run”. I would suggest all else from you, is irrelevant.
Jack
Jack said “A sort of expectation the guillotine would chop off my head at any given moment … unless ……….!!!!” so now it seems instead of being ‘afraid’ he chops off other’s heads certainly mine any chance he gets. Above is a typical and all too common example. Any ‘gap’ or ‘opening’ as he sees it and he is through it like a mad sheep following some ‘primal’ concept in his own head
So I wonder is that ‘progress’ in any sense? Probably about as good as it will get in the “degenerate” form of ‘primal’ he practices and believes in. Go from acting it in to acting it out or whatever. Go from being afraid to intimidating other people – a pretty straight forward case of ‘acting it out’ to use the jargon. Jargon I don’t care for actually. It’s very disappointing for me and makes me wonder……………..if the original ‘real’ primal therapy was no great shakes, the practice amateurish for the most part and the results poor and the ‘institution’ of primal dying by any measures in the ‘real’ world and now we have here a worse ‘version’ of it a more narrow and ‘fundamentalist’ and hateful form of it as least as exemplified by Jack and he sort of ‘runs’ the place now that even Margaret has gone AWOL (a kind of ISIS of primal lol)……………………….so David I am game for starting another blog. I know 2 people already who have been to the PI (unhappy with the place and the ‘results’ as most are deep down or even not so deep down right on the surface more often) and expressed quite a bit of interest.
I must admit I do miss a place where I can kind of plop down every morning and say what is on my mind. I do it a bit with email etc I have even thought of starting a ‘family blog’ I mean for me and my siblings but that is not really what I am looking for. “Here” is no longer worth it to me……………just about anything I write I expect and often it is ‘thrown back in my face’ by Jack. I do not need that, he does it with no good purpose in mind he does not mean me well he just provokes or attempts to in his hateful head tripping kind of way. He is a pest to me and the last thing I should be doing is jousting with him. It drags me to the same level a level of crazy mean one upmanship.
Now I wait for more crap because of this……………but I am not interested in that I am interested in your thoughts David and see if there is anything I can DO about this. This nonsense has gone on way too long for me and really it is because I don’t create a better alternative for myself. The main thing I took away from the Cruise is as you put it ‘primal to the bone’ I am so it is totally unproductive for me to be ‘arguing’ with it or with some of its degenerate adherents. I want to be ‘doing’ primal and in a way that is more ‘true’ to the original vision and we all had a ‘vision’ there not just Janov himself. Certainly the kind of slavish ‘following’ of him to me makes no sense. To continue the sheep image racing through a gap behind him and he is a pretty imperfect leader in this ‘sheep’s opinion lol…………
PS David I understand you have not been here so long and you may well feel you want to stay here or you have more to ‘get’ here or whatever. I have been here a long time 3.5 years which is about 3 years too long. Anyway all of the above are really just my thoughts this morning what I feel about the place but I do feel/think it is a good idea for me to get away. But I want to get away to somewhere better.
Quote:- “He is a pest to me and the last thing I should be doing is jousting with him. It drags me to the same level ”
If it really does hurt you that much, and you then need to write an epistle for some kind of appeal … god knows to whom … then there is indeed something terrible wrong with your outlook.
You started this all matey … with a bluster 3.5 years ago coming on the blog here with the sole purpose of trying to hurt, humiliate and get some vengeance for what you perceived as being cheated upon; and you kept at it for quite some time. As you have repeatedly stated on this blog, you “bring it all upon yourself”, and, as I see it, have lost all credibility from most.
Good luck with your own blog … but make sure you totally hide it from me.
Jack
OK finally took Otto the old Dachhsund to the vet and put him to sleep. Cried and screamed in the car on the way there (sorry otto). Wept at the vets, before and after. Wept 2 days ago, pretty sure this was the week that this was going down. Took 2 advil and not crying now, probably later since everything around me reminds me of him. The bed where I ended up giving him morphine every 2 hours, the lake park me and the 3 dogs used to walk around together, Z remembering holding him in her lap in the car when we went to the store or Chipotle every night. Bye Otto. That was the hardest thing i ever had to do in my life.
We should be so lucky to be that cared for. Speaks highly of you.
Take care Otto Cod.
Sylvia,
> thanks, yes, I have heard about that ap.
> kittens have arrived yesterday evening, adorable, look like identical twins.
> one a bit shy at first, but completely at home today.
> they came up with a very funny and wild game, some kind of beach rugby in one of the litter boxes, mixed in with shadow boxing and high kung fu jummps and surprise attacks from under the bed to the one defending the litter box, for which they took turns. grit all over the place, but big fun, haha!
>
> afterwards they jumped onto the bed with me for a good purring rest, with the occasional lazy stretch full of wellbeing. soooo cosy!M
>
Glad you are enjoying your little critters–sounds like so much fun.
Margaret: Hey!!! good luck with your new room mates. Or should it be bed mates 🙂 🙂 .
Jack
> > Otto,
> I am so sorry for you, although it was the kindest thing to do for your dear dog, it is so very very painful as all we want is our pet to feel happy and safe.
> you didm all that was possible and I am sure he knew, and he knew how much you loved him.
> M
I wonder if Otto’s dog also used to get his ‘shots’ probably so he already mentions the ‘vet’.(Vet Alert!!) Primal people in general are very ‘conventional’ in their beliefs about health etc This all seems so odd to me all the ‘medical care’ of these animals and the atrocious health if even that word can be used in relation to these poor animals. I probably should be ’emoting’ about Otto’s dog but I wonder why don’t people think about this a bit. Of course in primal any thinking is kind of frowned on as a ‘head trip’ result is people don’t think for themselves hardly at all. Co-incidence? Hardly Janov is meant to do all the ‘thinking’ and the followers are mostly discouraged people with little confidence in themselves and any bit they have tends to be eroded by the ‘ideology’ – some like Jack put themselves in the place of Janov and get more and more ‘confident’ and arrogant as THEY do the little ‘thinking’ involved. All ‘un-authorized’ when Janov in that interview was showing his colleagus, students, patients, co-workers etc I could see nary a trace of Jack. He is the court eunuch who is not even at the Court. But hey the dog died after a miserable life but Otto got a ‘cry’ out of it so not totally wasted to channel the primal mind set. He got to a feeling!……………….. now if he can just do more and more of that himself he might magically get well……………….’magically’ would be the right word as I see no evidence of that working either.. Also how similar to Margaret’s case with her cat, shots, vets, massive ill-health and the final straw being put to sleep I prefer to say killed by and with the very same ‘vet’ who more than likely started it all with his ‘shots’ and all the rest of it. It’s not as if here we don’t have a contrary example – David mentioned he has had lots of cats and dogs who routinely live up to 20 years with no ill health to speak and no ‘shots’ given and no need to be ‘put to sleep’ at the end where we all cry and ’emote’ and express our ‘support’ something that is all basically un-necessary. But in the primal mind set we all ‘get to feelings’ so it’s all worth it. Is it really?
Didn’t you go out to sea with a vetinarian (oops doctor) for paleo people and cry at least 4 times according to your story. What’s all this mocking people that cry. Isn’t crying a normal natural expresion for someone one who is very sad???? OR just for those on a boat with their guru??? I kind of get a feeling that somehow you are losing your marbles. Or as W. A. Mozart was filmed as saying … the Paloe elite, shit marbles. Quite different to the rest of us who shit differently.
Anyway; why are you still ‘blowing off’ here when you should be recruiting other disgruntled primalers and getting them to join your blog. According to you there are a great many. So you should have little problem recruiting quite a number; then you can (in congnito) spend the rest of your lives complaining about Janov, Margaret, Otto and have a ball (book load) going off about me.
Jack
Speaking about “The Keeper of the Crypt” I just came across this today (Jon Rappoport again) which seemed to me (I am sure to be ‘refuted’ by the very same Keeper. He would!) weirdly relevant to that notion.
“On air, the anchor is neutral – a eunuch. Ultimately, he is paving over the Void.
This is a time-honored ancient tradition. The eunuch, by his diminished condition, has the trust of the ruler. He guards the emperor’s inner sanctum. He acts as a buffer between his master and the people. He applies the royal seal to official documents.
All expressed shades of emotion occur and are managed within that persona of the dependable court eunuch. The anchor who can move the closest to the line of being human without actually arriving there is the champion.”
It’s kind of funny to think of Jack forever battling for Janov but is nowhere to be seen or heard in Janov’s inner sanctum. Once Janov told him (he says) that he liked his ‘book’ that’s it. Gretchen and Barry won’t even say if they read it. My feeling is they probably ‘tried’ as I did and many people I know did. None ‘finished’ the book from everything I heard though one lady I know got close………………
Testing …. WordPress set me up differently; So!!! I’m trying to get it back to normal.
Jack
Otto is gone. The old dachshund is gone, died yesterday. Where’s Otto? Don’t see him on my bed today. I can still smell his pee on my bed. I can see the wood chips outside that I carried him to and set him down to pee. I can see me carrying him around the garden I planted, showing him stuff to keep him from getting bored, since he could no longer walk. Walked at the lake yesterday with Z and the other 2 dogs, without having to carry Otto the whole way around the lake. Now I am able to go out of my bedroom without Otto barking, not wanting to be left alone. Z won’t be calling me up at work complaining that she cannot work because Otto needed to be attended to every minute. I still won’t be able to cry in front of Z. I don’t know how she can appear to be happy; I know she is sad too. So…washing the dishes with fury, probably like my grandma did after my mom died. My teenage aunt probably resented the dishes getting more attention from grandma than she did. Teenage aunt is now 70-something. I don’t think she wants to talk about any of that. I can’t blame her. Washing the small bowls in which I used to mix Otto’s many medicines. We won’t be needing to use those for now. Is Otto’s spirit in the sky? Who knows…I could finally go to group, now that I don’t have to babysit Otto every minute. But I feel so estranged from group. I still hate that new Institute. Plus all the Retreat guys will be shoved into that small room. I can cry at home now if the music helps me; although I am shoving down my sadness with as much food as I can stuff down my throat. Still have feelings not attended to from other losses, let alone Otto. Oh well, bills to pay, live pets to attend to. Jar of peanut butter on my desk, peanut butter that I used to put Otto’s pills in before he stopped eating. Receipt from drug store for his meds on my desk. Not crying now. Maybe later.
Some more tears about Otto, while listening to that perennial sad song Bobbie McGee, Greatful Dead version. I had been walking him around the block for the past month at 5 in the morning. By walking, I meant me walking while carrying him. Seeing the back of his head as he looked down at things, interestedly, while ensconced in my right arm. (My right arm will probably stop hurting soon, he weighed 12 pounds). Walking in the dark down Victory Blvd, a few cars speeding past on their way to work. Cats or kittens on the sidewalk scurrying away as we got near. Sprinklers a-sprinklin at the apartment building getting us a tiny bit wet. Turn the corner and walk past the house where the lady sat on her steps, one or 2 times out with her 2 chihuahuas running around unleashed and following us down the block while she called out in some latin accent LOKI! LOKI!, can’t remember the other dog’s name. Always hoping she would be out there again. Turn another corner and there was grass I could walk on for a bit, turn the final corner back to our house, and the mockingbird would wake up and start singing, then almost home, and I always felt dizzy at that point, not sure why, not health-related. I did the walk so hopefully I could put him back with z in her bed so he would go back to sleep for a few more hours. Had to push the monster dog out of z’s bed, so I could put otto in there. Had to drug him up first. Then take the monster dog out to crap, and drive her with me to work, for me, and to my son’s house, for her. Then get some coffee at 7/11 and off to the boring job and monster bosses.
Otto, Very sorry about your dog. It sounds like it’s a painful loss but I think you did the right thing. Phil
Still crying. Love is love and not fade away. thanks for letting me know about music route to feelings BB, or at least that it is a valid route. kinda always thought that it was.
Can’t do much for Z’s sorrow, i am not much of a person. Don’t want to hug. she misses kissing Otto’s nose, or at least the part where his snout met his nose. We have time on our hands now. Stopped listerning to music and just looking out at the tree leaves blowing in the wind. Feel bad. Can’t do much for her. I am useless. His body is in a refrigerator at the crematorium, waiting in line to be torched.
feeliin alright, not feelin too good myself. lonely. dark out. death lingers on
Just to piss off the “Keeper of the Crypt” his ‘official’ name (well not really – but how DO you deal with a ‘mad dog’ you can try patting him on the head, ‘threatening’ him with something, throw him some red meat but anything is pretty much useless he is a ‘mad dog’ and a mad dog will do what a mad dog will do – now wait for it. the ‘reaction’ should take about 5 minutes lol…………….anyway I was about to say here is a little bit more on vaccines and something that is not often considered. Vaccines are becoming a form of ‘genetic engineering’ a lot of people are concerned about doing that to plants and more and more animals too. Why would humans be spared from this ‘great experiment’?. Answer: They are not! We have GMO’s for plants and animals and vaccines for humans and animals. Animals get it from both ends
If anyone thinks this is crazy or have serious doubts about this we need look no further than here and look at the fate of Otto’s dog and Margaret’s cat. Do you really think their horrible lives and final killing has nothing to do with all those great ‘shots’ they got to ‘protect’ them God help us. ‘Protected’ from meeting other cats and dogs, ‘protected’ from having anything like a normal healthy life but not ‘protected’ from being murdered in the end. Here is the quote (Jon Rappaport)
“I want to extend the remarks I made about vaccines the other day.
The reference is the New York Times, 3/15/15, “Protection Without a Vaccine.” It describes the frontier of research. Here are key quotes that illustrate the use of synthetic genes to “protect against disease,” while changing the genetic makeup of humans. This is not science fiction:
“By delivering synthetic genes into the muscles of the [experimental] monkeys, the scientists are essentially re-engineering the animals to resist disease.”
“‘The sky’s the limit,’ said Michael Farzan, an immunologist at Scripps and lead author of the new study.”
“The first human trial based on this strategy — called immunoprophylaxis by gene transfer, or I.G.T. — is underway, and several new ones are planned.”
“I.G.T. is altogether different from traditional vaccination. It is instead a form of gene therapy. Scientists isolate the genes that produce powerful antibodies against certain diseases and then synthesize artificial versions. The genes are placed into viruses and injected into human tissue, usually muscle.”
Here is the punchline: “The viruses invade human cells with their DNA payloads, and the synthetic gene is incorporated into the recipient’s own DNA. If all goes well, the new genes instruct the cells to begin manufacturing powerful antibodies.”
Read that again: “the synthetic gene is incorporated into the recipient’s own DNA.” Alteration of the human genetic makeup. Not just a “visit.” “Permanent residence.”
The Times article taps Dr. David Baltimore for an opinion:
“Still, Dr. Baltimore says that he envisions that some people might be leery of a vaccination strategy that means altering their own DNA, even if it prevents a potentially fatal disease.”
Yes, some people might be leery. If they have two or three working brain cells”
Quote:- “Just to piss off the “Keeper of the Crypt”
Since you Patrick are now in the business of merely desirous to ‘piss me off’ … let me give you some info about a program I watched on PBS last night by a guy, not quite in my corner, with a PhD from Yale, that it advocating a revamp of the economic system whereby the workers take over the workplace. Not un-similar to what I tried to convince you to do with Gentle Giant … make it employee owned You may have in your great searches of the internet, heard of him:- Proff. Richard D. Wolff. If not you can look him up also on the internet.
I wrote him and received a response to say he would look into my message … but no promise to make an personal reply
I totally agree with you in that we are certainly into some weird stuff to combat disease. Much, by my way of reckoning, that Janov found a solution to, way back in 1967.
Jack.
I listen to him (Richard Wolff) a lot on KPFK. I like him and agree with most everything he says in the economic sphere. He is very good on how dysfunctional our ‘economy’ is and has many interesting things to say about Greece etc. Not that that many are listening I don’t think…………..
It is ironic that you listen and like much of what Wolff says, but when I was suggesting running Gentle Giant in like mannner you were totally against it, since, presumably, it would have put you “The big boss” (dictator) on the same level as the rest of us. Seemingly you liked the ability to run arround with one thousand dollars in your wallet at all times.
I critique Wolff in a similar manor in that since “ECONOMICS is the study of money flow” It is tantamount to the STUDY of the pedestrian flow in any given city … USELESS, WORTHLESS AND POINTLESS.
Maybe … just maybe, you could by the same token get your head around Primal Theory and see (conceive) that YOU, a self admitted failure of Primal therapy wish to up-date, revamp or re-configure Primal therapy. Leave it to those doing the study and work, at the Primal Institute and Primal Center. Not Jack Waddington and certainly NOT Patrick Griffin. At best, both of us are merely patients.
Jack
An addendum:- The only ‘crypt’ for which I am the ‘keeper’ is my own personal piggy bank.
Further:- Just as Karl Marx was the genius he was to conceive and describe, very succinctly, the “capitalist system”, so also R. D. Wolff is able to do likewise. By my reckoning it was in both cases, how they considered (conceived) the means out of it; that was/is flawed. Just as with the “French Revolution”, they got rid of the rulers (the monarchy) to merely replace it with another. It’s the whole system that needs to be scrapped and that includes 99% of the medical profession. Which is a practice that is tantamount to closing the barn door AFTER the horse has bolted. I suspect Jack Kruse is in the same ball game (category).
Primal Theory aims to deal with the problem at it’s very core, source or, what you will.
Jack
blah blah blah blah…………………… forever and ever. Amen.
For an extremely arrogant and conceited sob……………..you strangely are mute and quite when it comes to the PI. You are a mere ‘patient’ and so is the dependency fostered and the appeal to a non existent ‘authority’ maintained. Just goes to show most people need a ‘religion’ you have certainly found yours. Now chill out we know about your religion and like all religious fanatics it gets very tiresome. Do YOU like talking to Jehovah’s Witness………………no need to answer please don’t answer if you can I have heard it all a million times already. I get it you BELIEVE……………..BFD! What a wanker!
PS I wonder what ‘study and work’ has been done by either Janov or the PI…………much like you they seem content to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat………….I would say what is remarkable is the LACK of any study or work. Why should they they have already ‘got’ it………………a typical religious attitude.
You can wave ‘failure’ in my face all you like (ass-hole!) but I know better and have found my own way now. No longer listening to the likes of you who never wished me well anyway. I have seen through the hollowness and the aridity of your ‘life style’ I think you have gotten worse since you moved back in with JIm. Perhaps there is now less opportunity for fellating (or whatever you do I am not even sure what that means but we all know what I am talking about) large black strangers………………….so you are at a loose end it certainly feels that way. You take out your hatred on me constantly……………..I think you might be better served by going back to your old ways of promiscuous sex with the wrong gender and using the wrong orifice and with strangers.. Then maybe you could stop lecturing me on all the ‘wrong’ things I do and did. You use the ‘wrong’ gender and the ‘wrong’ orifice why don’t you start there and kind of keep to that. Then you might be busy with yourself instead of all your posturing and ‘acting out’ fucking hypocrite………………NEVER has ‘practiced’ primal therapy in any way just fucking ‘lectures about it……………what a wanker!!!
It occurs to me vaccines would be a good ’cause’ for Dr Janov to explore. Both from the point of view of traumatizing children (not a small matter, just think what a visceral fear we all have still to this day for ‘needles’ aside from being stabbed to me it’s one of the worst things that could happen to me. Imagine a 2 day old child now being ‘stabbed’ and that is when they start and well don’t stop until the child is like 18 or something. Maybe 50 ‘shots’ later) and also the ‘medical’ aspects of it which I would imagine he is quite qualified to speak about. A case of really f….. up infants and children and we see the ‘results’ all around us. ADD,Autism etc on and on.
Of course in the ‘respectable medicine’ community that would be the end of him. Now responsible for TWO (count them) ‘wacko’ theories primal therapy (pretty bad) and now ‘worse’ he is an ‘anti-vaxxer’ If he lacked ‘legitimacy’ before the anti-vaxxer label should really do him in. I notice in a lot of the media now they very often lump ‘global warming denialists’ and ‘anti-vaxxers’ as being the same kind of people…………….anti-science, irrational, crazy etc.
I must be some kind of freak because I think global warming is our greatest problem and see no reason at all to ‘deny’ it but I also think vaccines is one of our greatest self imposed problem as a species. What does that make me 1/2 anti-science 1/2 irrational or 1/2 crazy lol…………..
Reminds me of an “Irish” joke. An Irish immigrant returns to the ‘old country’ from America. He is sight seeing and touring around the country in his car. He comes across a railway crossing but the gate is not either open or closed it is at like a 45 degree angle 1/2 open or 1/2 closed depending on how you look at it
He waits. Nothing happens waits some more still nothing. Finally he get’s out of the car and asks the attendant what is going on is it safe to go or should he wait.
The attendant says “Ah sure we’re 1/2 expecting a train. Oh well maybe you had to be there lol……………
> Otto, I was very touched by your description of how you walked around the block with Otto on your arm.
> there is so much love and tenderness there.
> sadness about the loss is one more facet of that same love. for me it helped to think about my cat being in my heart.
> my best girlfriend said to me my cat would surely be bragging about me in cat heaven, I am sure Otto will be showing off with you there too, in doggy heaven in his case.
> it was also touching you showing your dog stuff and talking to him so he would not be so bored for not being able to walk around.
> sounds like you work hard to take care of all of them, getting up so early in the morning and so
>
> M
> David,
> you are very silent lately.
> maybe you are getting a better view now about how Patrick ruthlessly uses other people’s grief to show off with his crazy act out.
> I find this so sick and ugly I deleted the last comment I ran into after te first lines.
> it gets worse seemingly, I find that somewhat worrying, but by now feel pretty powerless as I have tried in many ways to get through, clearly in vain.
> it is sad really, and somewhat scary.
> Patrick, I know you don’t like to be talked about without being adressed, so here is the only thing I can think of to say to you, in an honest effort to for old times saake, I think you need help, please go see Gretchen.
> M
Margaret – thanks for your concern but I am fine. At least I feel fine. If I were you I would look to yourself and I can imagine your cat in cat heaven saying that lady meant well and tried to love me…………….but she f… me up so bad by turning me over to the ‘vets’. She meant well but she was badly mistaken.
I guess I feel a bit similar about you……………you mean well (more than I can say for Jack – he does NOT mean me well)…………but you are mistaken. At least an honest mistake not like the other one…………….he does not mean well or do well or think well……………but he constantly ‘promotes’ himself. What is to promote how to do everything ‘wrong’ wrong gender, wrong orifice……………wrong thinking……………..and yet he’s ‘proud’ of it………………what a wanker!!
Margaret – a bit ‘typical’ of you also you ‘interpret’ what David is thinking…………….you have NO IDEA is my guess……………maybe stick with that. And NO your cat would not be ‘bragging’ about you nor would Otto’s dog …………..why should they. You are so self absorbed and think ‘love’ overcomes everything……………….I could advise you to see Gretchen though like Jack you have done plenty of that with seemingly very meager ‘results’ That’s why now I am fine with being a ‘failure’ in primal as constituted……………..is it POSSIBLE to ‘suceed’ I doubt it from all the ‘evidence’ I have seen I have ‘liberated’ myself from the nonsense and I still think there is an important place for PT but NOT the way I have seen and experienced it……………..but thanks for caring I do feel it to be genuine.Meaning well is a good step but knowing well and doing well is often something else. All our parents ‘meant well’ did they do well……………..not so much it seems……………..
Margaret: I was reminded in your latest comment to Patrick; of a conversation I had with my brother in law, just before I set off to Los Angeles to do Primal Therapy. He said to me: he being a brick layer and having made quite a bit of money:- “The only Time I would see a psychologist or psychiatrist was when he/she needed my help”. I kind of feel Patrick would have a similar response to your suggestion.
My sense of Patrick is that he now feels so isolated and so hurt that he needs DESPERATELY to fire back, in the hope that he comes off as being … smart.
I am absolutely convinced he would do well running his own blog with like minded people. I doubt he’ll find that many on this blog however … but whatever.
Jack
whatever whatever ‘wank’ away wanker!! I am fine I have never felt so ‘sane’ it helps when I REALLY ‘free’ myself from your nonsense. I find all this anal-ising’ me you and Margaret pretty ironic…………….you are both crocked up HIV positives with no life and you both dose yourselves with toxic drugs that literally don’t allow you to ‘think’ straight (crooked thinking lol) . I am fine wanker………………do your self a favor go out and find yourself a LARGE black man…………….leave me the fuck alone…………your are a poser and a hypocrite…………….it really seems moving back with Jim has caused you a problem not that you did not have plenty before but the level of hatred is constant and un-remitting. I am sure people think I am going off the deep end here……………..NO! I am just fucking sick of literally sick people who dose themselves with toxic drugs ‘lecturing’ me about health or mental health. You BOTH don’t have a fucking clue……………….I pay NO mind to anything you both say……………physicians heal thy-selves……………fucking hypocrites…………….
Irish humour takes a bit of being there, listening. I like that about it. Like the Irish account of the origins of the formal Brit dining dogma, knife in right hand, fork left; etiology, paranoia. LOL here…. Brit humour kind of hits you over the head, American is in your face. I am always amazed how blog ha ha humour goes unrecognized, or interpreted, unless, an acronym or emoticon denotes it is meant to be humourous or kindly satirical. Native Americans use humour to avoid feeling fear. The Inuit use it to insult, veiled anger.
I am told I don’t know the history of the blog. That is true. Barry Bernfield, and I paraphrase, once wrote about relations and holding up staff relationships as an example, said, …” we don’t always agree. Some days we don’t even like each other very much. But I would trust any one of them with my life.”
I don’t believe in Gods or their fictitious prophets, but if I were wrong and the neurosis concocted character JC himself appeared, or blogged, and recommended Patrick Griffin, that would not be enough here. He is permitted no wiggle room, no compassion. I used to criticize my profession for eating it’s young, practice exactly the opposite of their creed in their personal and inter staff/professional relationships. This is supposed to be a place to speak, to express, to present feelings, actually, ” For Comments”. But,it’s like equality, it only applies to the anointed.
I’m not over smart enough or over together enough to recommend anything to anyone else, but it might not be a bad idea to think on that, and see if there any attached feelings..
I suspect Patrick will give up on you. A feral cat could expect more humanity. My brother used to get great glee from tormenting my old Lab who only knew how to love. Then one night he pretended to be attacking me, and kind old Rex who never retaliated sprang into action, and pinned my brother to the floor and issued him strong warning. He’d had enough. My brother demanded I have him killed, (euthanize is such a sanitized word,) and I ordered my brother from my house, to never return. He never saw that coming because I was like old Rex, capable only of putting up with crap, forgiving, and loving. He misjudged both of us.
David: “The Inuit use it to insult, veiled anger.” Therein lies the very nature, (the essence) of the expression of anger. I mentioned all this in my last book, but maybe I did not make it very clear. An attempt to insult, hurt or in anyway degrade another, one is angry with, is not IMO, the true expression of anger … rather, it becomes a “blame game” and as I see it, and have experienced it. It is not resolving of the angry feeling.
The origins of all this, as I see it, emanates from all that we were left with as children … in that we were forbidden to express anger in that natural way that children do instinctively: hence we then began to take it out on the nearest thing or person to us, and make it a “blame game” in order to subliminally, justify it.
It’s a terrible irony that leaves us with what is then known as “resentment”, and not healing. Merely just my feeling about the matter.
Jack
Always having the ‘last word’ or attempting to. You are talking about me but now in your sly indirect and dishonest way.Making some ‘point’ like some demented professor. Some bogus point of primal doctrine or ‘religion’ or even theology it has got o that point with you.
You have sniped and mocked me and relentlessly ‘quoted’ me and criticized me for weeks now. I ‘ignore’ it I made a vow to just ‘express’ myself I DO NOT NEED your creepy ‘attention’ you have said yourself if you see me on the street you would just walk on by………………..fine that’s ok with me so leave me the fuck alone here then. I don’t anal-ise and critique everything you say, you yak on about ‘abolishing money’ or whatever head tripping nonsense I leave it alone whatever I am not impressed but it’s what you are doing. You seem an empty and hollow person with nothing to do and you lie in wait for me like a spider with a fly and try to hook me in some way.
I lost my cool with you I do not feel bad about it or that I did anything wrong. You mouth words like ‘healing’ you are the same wanker who proudly states he never forgives or forgets (me) you are a huge hypocrite and as David says one day I may just ‘leave’ here and REALLY get away from your crap but for some reason I still don’t want to or am not ready. I get the feeling you want to drive me off but you also enjoy f… with me.
As far as your use of toxic drugs I think it is big factor in how close to a cadaver you act. I see it as more than a co-incidence that both you and Margaret are scratchy and intolerant of other ideas, you are quick to take offence and both ‘defend’ primal and act as it is under attack if I hint even at a slight inconsistency or whatever. Margaret CANNOT it seems see I am trying to show her how to have a better experience with her new cat and more to the point the cats will have a better life. That simple but she has built this up and up another characteristic of both or you. You NEVER ‘back down’ but up the ante constantly. You double down on your mistakes constantly.To be clear I don’t believe HIV is anything at all if I am sure of one thing is it is the ‘wrong’ target………….but your use of drugs to ‘combat’ it makes both of you into crazy monsters. I am sure that seems exaggeration but that’s the way I see it. You are both intolerant crazy monsters if any difference come up or any attempted ‘education’ is done. If you could or would only see I have something to ‘offer’ you a lot that would actually improve your live(s)
It is ironic though what does it say about the vitality of primal if the primal blog is ‘anchored’ and ‘dominated’ by two people on the same toxic drugs, drugs that for sure dim any vitality of life.. I am afraid it DOES say something about primal or the way it has evolved or mostly not evolved but has settled into some kind of terrible cul de sac.
You can no longer hurt me by calling me a ‘failure’ I embrace the failure tag in relation to a ‘therapy’ that has lost it’s way and lost it a long time ago. When I came to LA for therapy in 1978 so many things felt ‘off’ and to me the way I see it and understand it now WERE ‘off’ it has been a long and difficult journey for me to un-tangle all of that. I am not ‘bragging’ but really with little of no help from the PI though I always credit Gretchen for allowing this blog. It is the first time I feel I have been able to have my ‘say’ not at the PI originally or even recently the ‘tradition’ of the place militates against REALLY listening to people. I feel I have found my way now but don’t kid yourself that the ‘failure’ tag hurts me any longer. But it has cost me a lot and if Janov has more integrity and basic truthfulness a lot of my wanderings and ‘mistakes’could have been cut short.
What I find interesting is to me you are an even greater ‘failure’ and yet you seem to have no knowledge or recognition of that. Failure you might say is the coin of the realm when it come to ‘standard primal’. Failure is everywhere in it and inevitable in it. It HAS failed what is going on now is some face saving pretense – it has no influence in the world either of regular people or professionals. And to me the great shame is it should not be this way or in many ways could have avoided being this way. But it IS this way I wonder why more people don’t wonder about such a huge promise and such a broken result.
I havn’t heard anyone yet say how the retreat was……………as I said before I see little or no ‘retreating’ there more of a bolstering session. A good retreat practice IMO would be to wonder why are we still doing that? Retreat from the retreats makes a lot of sense
Quotes; and there are a plenty in this epistle, which I figure speak for themselves:- ” I ‘ignore’ it I made a vow to just ‘express’ myself ” “I lost my cool with you I do not feel bad about it or that I did anything wrong” ” I may just ‘leave’ here and REALLY get away from your crap but for some reason I still don’t ” “but you also enjoy f… with me” “I am trying to show her how to have a better experience with her new cat ” “You are both intolerant crazy monsters ” “I have something to ‘offer’ you a lot that would actually improve your live(s)” “You can no longer hurt me” “you are an even greater ‘failure’ ” “I havn’t heard anyone yet say how the retreat was……………as I said before I see little or no ‘retreating’ ” “Retreat from the retreats makes a lot of sense”
Jack
Yes ass-hole…………..and your ‘point’ is………….you always have a ‘point’ to prove……………….I am serious find a BIG black man before it is too late…………….dive down some wrong hole in the wrong gender and then come back and show what is ‘wrong’ with me. You are a pompous Lord Ha Ha fucking idiot………………..
I am familiar with the clinical. Conquered peoples learn to veil feelings and stop feeling to survive. I was a conquered person, by family abuse and by my local community that placed us somewhere below. The situation and the practice is still alive and well dominant factions trying to conquer the
undefended.
And the Irish are a very ‘conquered’ people. It engenders self hatred and an in-ability to every be whole again. And if I may be allowed a conceit or analogy it is interesting I feel I am even dealing with this right now today battling with Lord Ha-Ha with the potato in his mouth giving him that weird and superior accent and attitude. The English did not get to rule the world by being good people and we were the ones they ‘;practiced’ all their cruelty and deviousness on. Divide and conquer, intolerance of our language and religion and promoting THEIRS. And something that one of them is still doing it feels to me. Cruelty and deviousness I see in him in spades……………. and pushing his own demented religion. Excuse me I no longer care for your religion I have my OWN…………….let me nurture and respect that your’s is obviously NOT worthy of my respect…………..
I was jamming with some old band mates and others today. One referred to the Walk of Tears, from the Appalacians to Oklahoma, of the Cherokee and other Eastern Tribes as a , ” relocation.” Like they purchased the lands at market price and bussed them in air conditioned coaches.
It is estimated 70 % died en route, dehydration, starvation, fatigue. The able bodied carried their sick and dead until the day’s trek ended. Some mothers carried the bodies of their dead children to Oklahoma.
Some returned to their homeland from , ” the dead land,” another 5 year walk back.The monstrous effort was genocide.
Relocation ???? I lost it.
The Eastern Appalacian colonials learned how to construct local government, sophisticated log housing, farming, animal husbandry, medicine, anesthesia, surgical education, birth control, gravity fed spring water reserves, even the Town Hall concept, and village layout, from the Cherokee, a long permanently settled agrarian culture. Across the america’s my Amer-Indian ancestors were repaid by slaughter by the, ” civilized,” European invaders.
We are still mastered by the colonization mentality that keeps reinventing strategies to expunge North America/ Turtle Island of the Amer-Indian. That is felt to this day.
In an early post I discussed this non directed anger by mainstream white society; ie: sarcasm. Another voice of the same is elitism where one by words or intonation or tacit response wants to tell the other how it really is, as if he were the keeper of the real truth. That always strikes me as arrogant. On the other hand principled people, say like the Dalai Lama, speak their opinions, unwavering, and it feels compassionate.
David: I am not quite sure what you are getting at, other than perhaps you felt pissed (though I could well be wrong) that I repeated myself about how I see anger not being fully expressed … for the purpose of getting beyond it Maybe I read you wrongly. All I can add to that was that you were not being direct: … unless it was meant as some sort of humor. Sorry … it passed right over my cuckoo’s nest.
Jack
Jack
So we have a picture and THEN your name and then ‘Jack’ and then “Jack’ ……………..we KNOW who the fuck you are ………………unfortunately………………
“for the purpose of getting beyond it” for YOU that is like the joke of the year or joke of the decade for you it’s the joke of the century………………..your principle is to NEVER get over anything……………..if you actually did you would not need to go on and on about PT for ever and ever…………..so your little toy would be taken away from you. A big case of ‘trauma bond’ loving your own trauma hoarding it and looking at it…………….it tends to fool most people that but not me……………….imagine a ‘stupid’ Irish farm boy seeing through Lord Ha Ha…………………ha ha ha that’s funny?
Just an add on that I forgot until I hit the post button. I have read Dr. Janov for nearly 45 years. And was employed in a profession that required clinical understanding and practice. And I understand non directed anger, it’s manifestations and it’s etiology.. I was simply alluding to how various conquered cultures use different ways to employ the defense. And how conquered children share those attributes, bullying, subservience, sarcasm, pleasing, non compliance, pleasing,… each of us assuming roles according to how we coped, before therapy. Sometimes I am merely just wanting to have a normal conversation with people who share an interest. No hidden agenda. A, what do you think about this, conversation ?? Substituting this gadget for face to face interaction is a skill I haven’t mastered. An unknown communicating with unknowns. Maybe not a fit for me. Better perhaps to assemble a group of real bodies in real time. Ah, I’m talking too much, saying nothing.
David: No! that came across to me much more clearly. I grant that talking face to face is more natural and normal, but since blogging is here to stay, as I see it, we then need to master it, if we wish to continue to communicate in this media.
I personally love it, and have been at it for some years now before this blog was created. It appeals to the arguamentative-ness within me.
Jack
I feel horrible with the dog being gone. I would feel worse if I wasn’t taking antidepressants. I am trying to install an air conditioner via the instructions that come with it. You know how that goes. At least for me with my scrambled brain, left/right reversed. I gave up, too hot now, try to finish tomorrow. I got some corn squash and tomatoes going in my garden. Not sure how high my water bill is going to be, pretty high. Kid and Z went out to do something. What more can I say.
Whoa. An old video from last Christmas with Otto at the end. guaranteed to make me tear up.
Jeez this is a good one Grateful Dead 1972. What some of us looked like back then. Not me, I missed out on that stuff as usual.
Wow, Otto; yep I’ve had hair to my waist, a 2 foot diameter afro, pony tail, native double plaits ; I, too, feel I missed it all, the genuine experience because I only rebelled to support the rights, needs and feelings of others. I either didn’t know I had or had stopped feeling I had any.
david
> David,
> ok, we seem to have a different notion about humour.
> I think and that is my personal opinion, that it is right to react against personal attacks on people about their sexual orientation for example, and other offennsive namecalling just with an intention to hurt.
>
> it is also Barry Bernfeld which now comes to my mind, who once said being in group, or in this case being on a blog, should not be different from being in a regular social conversation, we should be able to express ourselves, but as in any social interaction social correction or social feedback is valuable.
>
> you don’t seem to see how often we try to help Patrick.
>
> in response one moment I am referred to as genuinely caring, the next comment I am attacked upon my medical status, which is a private matter which I could sue him for for putting it out here in public.
>
> and for what purpose?
>
> merely probably because he is angry at Jack for pointing out some painful truth and in his own way imo Jack tries to help Patrick as well besides teasing him and having his own agenda.
>
> but hey, it is ok, we see things differntly seemingly, so be it.
> M
Margaret – It is not really a case of ” personal attacks on people about their sexual orientation” it is specifically and only this ‘wanker’ and what he does and how he is. As for as this wanker trying to ‘help’ me all I can say is ‘are you serious?”
I appreciate you still come up for air and try to make sense of things………………….I will just say again ‘think’ a bit. All of my stuff about vaccines HIV etc is not personal to you. It is something I have discovered over the last few years. And I have found the process ‘exciting’ to me discovery and wonder about things is exciting. And I at times want to share or talk about it here. If the likes of Jack just dismisses all this as a ‘head trip’ he just makes the world poorer and nastier than it already is. And that seems to be largely what he is about.
> wow, without having said anything I go from being called genuinely caring in one comment to being called an intolerant monster in the next.
> but hey, it is not personal, is it?
> that’s ok then.
> M
Hey Margaret – it’s all ‘feelings’…………..and as to you I honestly see your good side and also what I think of your ‘mistaken’ side NOT bad side. To me Jack has gone over so far to the ‘dark side’ the ‘bad’ is mostly what is left. Sad really. You have good intentions and you have ‘helped’ me in the past and you have tried more often and maybe I didn’t take it up as much as I might As far as ‘mistakes’ in the end it is a matter of opinion I would say to you I don’t just shoot my mouth off (though that too) but there is a kernel of truth most of the time in what I see and say.
After all I saw the potential and greatness of Arthur Janov when I was a mere 20 y.o. Not bad for a boy just up from the farm. Jack likes to say I was just a ‘speed reader’ I am quite sure I knew and understood at least as much about it as he did. By the time I came here at 26 y.o. I had read all 5 books several times and ALL the Journals of Primal Therapy. So it was a huge thing for me and at a young and formative age…………………all the greater the let down when I come here and first week become aware of Dr Holden handing out Thorazine like it was candy and other very bad ‘signs’. As I said these ‘signs’ were signifiers to something quite problematic at the core of PT. Something I now believe to be the case. But squaring all this has not been easy for me but I do believe I CAN ‘forgive’ if not forget. I move on as best as I can
This sums up my day today interacting with some of the ‘retreaters’. Did I slip over the line probably in their eyes yes in my own not really or if I did it’s all good……………..
> Patrick,
> what were you referring at in your comment , the one, soryy if I misquote a bit, where you say ‘this was my day. might have passed the line with some retreaters but that’s ok’
> I did not really understand that comment.
> jack and me did not go to the retreat this year.
> so what was that about?
> M
Margaret – I better not say so much but it involved a bit of what we used to call ‘gate crashing’ by me.Nothing intentional but one thing kind of led to another but in my opinion as I say I felt “it’s all good”
I didn’t get that feeling from the people there however ………………..I think it is fair to say they were/are not ‘impressed’ by me and it’s fair to say v\ca versa for my part. A very strong feeling of repeaters if not so much ‘retreaters’ a feeling almost of a ‘terminal’ situation for some individually and the ‘movement’ as a whole.
Anything else I say would be gossip and best avoided in my opinion……………..it’s only important if gossip is important which I don’t think it is. But I got an idea now…………….instead of talking about the Retreat maybe we should call it the Repeat. As in are you going to the Repeat this year? Who was you buddy at the Repeat? Were you at last year’s Repeat. I like the sound of that and I think it is way more accurate.
Gretchen was cool one of the few – others who kind of anoint themselves in her place not so much in my humble opinion……………
> Patrick,
> am I very far from the truth if I make a wild guess that you ‘barged in’ so to say in group?
> am smiling right now, wishing I would have been there, though maybe it is not really funny.
> why did in that case you not simply sign up for group?
> ha, I am burning with curiosity now, smiley.
> swear I did not hear anything about it at all, only reading the blog here.
> M
> Patrickk,thinking about it some more, I am really curious as to what, apart from daily living a life in a healthy way and being in touch with some real actual issues, would represent for you a good and productive primal experience, not in a general way but in a specific way of dealing with some primal personal event.
> like if you would picture an ideal situation, session, group setting, otherwise, in which you could allow yourself to submerge into a feeling you want to work through, and possibley share, as that is yet another level than having feelings by oneself, a lot of the time anyway.
>
> I am really curious as to how you’d picture, imagine it should be for you to work.
>
> you had such high expectancies of primal, how did you picture it then?
>
> did you imagine the therapists would do something special to trigger you for example?
>
> that would be an expectation many of us might have had.
>
> reality is they can help a great deal very often, helping us to cross that last line of defense, but it remains the patient who has to do it.
>
> and for what you say about repetition, some feelings are huge, and have to be gone through many times over to be processd entirely, at first sight it might seem a simple repetition, but all the time things keep changing and the inner feeling keeps evolving, and improvment keeps happening, which you might not believe of course, but well, it is my repeated experience, smiley, personal and by watching and observing others.
>
> specially coming over only once a year it is easier to witness true changes in people, some subtle, other quite obvious.
>
> but well, as you still see a lot of good in primal I still wonder about how you picture its practice, and why you do not allow yourself to give it a try with a skilled person like Gretchen, what do you have to lose?
>
> of course it would be of no use if only to prove it does not work, if you do not want to be vulnerable it would not work.
>
> M
Margaret – your post deserves a proper response but I don’t have the time now I promise I will but also I don’t want to stoke more ‘controversy’. Honestly how much of anything I say will not be ‘refuted’ ‘contested’ ‘rejected’ ‘contended’ on and on by Jack (my feeling). It gets hard here running a fucking gauntlet all the time. Life should not be THIS hard this un-yielding and yes this un-feeling
But I appreciate your questions some ‘answers’ will come I am pretty sure. I dunno just the use of the word ‘gate crashing’ appeals to me. Reminds me of the hippy and squatting days when usually the way to any ‘party’ was to gate crash it. Did you have some kind of similar word in Belgian or Dutch. It just has a good kind of anarchic feeling to it.
For some reason this song reminds me of yesterday Thin Lizzy Irish rockers as it happens called “Jailbreak” though I was not really trying to break out of a jail I was trying to break into one lol. As usual I am getting it backward or ‘wrong’. Gretchen was the only one who felt was likely to give me a pass. But she was ‘over ruled’ by certain ‘self appointed’ jailers………….well let them have their jail I think I am better off being ‘free’ even if it gets lonely out here. I will send you the song to your email too as I know you have some difficulty with the links sometimes. The song is not a big deal just reminded me now of that kind of anarchic spirit but as I say I am/was trying to break INTO a jail. Go figure as they say……………
Todays quote:- “Life should not be THIS hard this un-yielding and yes this un-feeling”
Yesterdays quotes:- “I ‘ignore’ it I made a vow to just ‘express’ myself ” “You can no longer hurt me”
A prior quote:- “I bring it all on myself”
Jack
The ‘point’ here seems to be maybe I am ‘in-consistent’ or ‘contradictory’ to myself or something. Maybe to a ‘computer mind’ that is the case, but we are not computers and the ‘apostle of feelings’ still JUDGES them all the time for some reason. Judge-mentality the very opposite of feelings…………..I don’t think any of these ‘statements’ are even contra-dictory and so what if they are?
I try to be as kind as possible and see it as an example of ‘computer mind’ though really I suspect it is more of a case of ‘cadaver mind’ brought on by toxic drugs…………….though the tendency was always there………….
Quote:- “I try to be as KIND as possible” emphasis mine.
Leslie: I think your comment has had some effect … Patrick never once used the “W” word.
Jack
…………….always an ‘answer’ even if you have forgotten the question………………anyway I use words as they occur to me and as I feel ‘appropriate’………….but I agree me using the word ‘kind’ is a little out of character……………….maybe my ‘therapy’ starts to work lol………………I am actually ‘deep down ‘ a kind person though I can see how that concept can be abused………………probably Hitler or Stalin for example were ‘deep down’ kind also if you get my drift………………
I don’t want to forget Winston Churchill……………..I don’t think he was any ‘better’ really than those two……………he has had much better PR of course…………..the English are VERY good at PR something I struggle with to this day…………….there is some ‘research’ that says give a guy or girl I guess a good English accent and their IQ goes up about 20 points in the view of the audience…………….the Irish are a lot more ‘primitive’ and closer to their feelings as a consequence………………tend to get a bad press as a result but and of course it is a generalization the Irish are much closer to what I call ‘true primal’ than the more ‘developed’ peoples……………….I even think ARE ‘developed’ people too far gone to even know what ‘true primal’ is their ‘cultural values ‘ of disposability and cutting off is mostly just TOO developed.and ingrained in them?. In Ireland last Summer it occurred to me the ‘average’ Irish person can ‘conflict solve’ way better than the average primal person. It starts with something as simple as not being under the illusion that one person has ‘all’ the truth with that as a kind of starting point things can go somewhere………………now I have to admit I am not a great example of a kind of ‘indigenous’ Irish I was un-fortunatly brought up to ape the English to my great cost……………we looked to England because we ‘hated’ ourselves…………………self hatred is a son of a bitch to deal with but is a consequence of colonialism and as I say the English ‘practiced’ all their cruelty and deviousness on us. In that way we probably got MORE of it than say even the Africans because it went on for hundreds of years…………….they ‘perfected’ it on us and then applied it to the world…………
Having just returned from the incredible fold of being with good people out to help themselves and others at the Retreat, scanning the blog is absolutely shocking! Just full of blame and crap.
How fortunate that we had around 40 people who were able to expose their inner turmoils and hurts. We had controversies that people then uncovered more truths about themselves – not continuous lashings outs. We had emotional maturity and fun! So many good laughs, experiences and connections.
Truly magical – in that what happened there is not found anywhere else. The individual growth of people in 1 week was astounding – not all in the same way but for each person.
I will hold onto it and so many memories and people for as long as I can.
This blog is poisoned and does not at all represent what Primal Therapy is about and can give.
Leslie
Leslie, I agree with everything you say here about the retreat. It was a tremendous experience for me and today I find myself still thinking about things that happened there. Reading the blog is discouraging, as it is mostly a wasteland. It is indeed kind of “poisoned”; not everything but enough to kind of ruin it. Phil Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:48:24 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Leslie a truly clear vision, your comment. Thank you. Do you think it can be turned around ?
David and others: There is nothing anyone can do to turn this current situation on the blog arrond, whilst Getchen made it clear that no-one will be banned. To and for me I felt that was a great decision and felt the purpose was to allow all comments (Gretchen might correct me), however distasteful any one, or group was re-acting to it. All re-action to what is taking place need that the person/s re-acting to look into themselves … and self analyse what it is that is happening to themselves.
Patrick for whatever is deeper motives are is re-acting … to quote Artthur Janov … on auto pilot IMO. No-one can tell, educate, eluicidate or pacify Patrick. He needs to come to terms with himself in his own good way and in his own good time.
Seemingly, he is greatly upset with the way I re-act to him. He needs to resolve that “upset-ness” on his own terms … whatever that be.
Now I need to say how all this affects me. It is a multifaceted factor for me. The first being, that I have a longer history with Patrick than anyone else on the blog. Equally Patrick has that some history with me.
Another is that I do not feel insulted, hurt, bothered or upset by his responses to me. I have said in the past:- I cannot be insulted … I can only allow myself to FEEL insulted … and in these instances I don’t. If all this was happening with someone I really cared about that would be a different matter and I have no doubt I would be deeply hurt. I have little or no intentions of re-acting differently to pacify anyone’s distastes. That is their issue … not mine
Lastly; for this comment of mine. I do have a ‘perverted’ sence of fun putting Patrick’s words back to him. Life is getting short for me and I wish to get as much fun, pleasure, joy and contentment as I can out of it, whilst it lasts. Blogging, and especially this blog, offers that to me.
Jack
Sadly – no, at this point I do not.
> Patrick,
> ok, I am curious to hear your response to my questions.
> I think it would help, in order to get less oposition, if you’d word what you picture in positive terms, not just mentioning what it should not be, but focus on how you would like it to be for you, personally.
>
> and no, I don’t know a word in our language for gatecrasher, don’t even ran into the concept ever.
>
> M
Gate crasher is an uninvited and or unwanted visitor.
> if I may express my personal opinion, apart from still wanting to hear Leslies of course, of course it can be turned around, it is what we make of it.
>
> if say a minimum of two people keep being constructive in what they write, and sincere or vulnerable or whatever way of being honest, even angry, but in a way that is useful, not only namecalling , but well, I should not have to explain, we are all adults with sufficient intelligence, this blog is still worthwhile, regardless of any occasional well, whatever one wants to call it.
>
> noone is forced to read all the details of what seems not to add anything, just skip through it, and add your own entry which means something to you.
>
> staying away won’t help, on the contrary.
>
> i hope people will hang around and stick it out, glad you wrote here, Leslie, and Phil, seems like it was a very good retreat for what I heard of it so far.
>
> no regrets I did not go this year, am doing fine here with enough things to do and two fine kittens that keep me, and themselves very happy.
> they are bouncing balls of curiosity and playfulness and affection.
> M
The retreat for me was a great experience; the reuniting of old friends, the getting to know a little more about each other, and the making of new friends. As you say, Leslie, controversial, fun, warm, raw, connective, and the overall emotional maturity…plus – waking in the morning and always someone there to speak or wave to before breakfast, the beautiful surroundings, the trips off site… fascinating, engrossing, interesting, life-enhancing and life-changing.
Thank you to everyone 😂😱😪😳😔😕😍😘
I am shamelessly jealous !!
I’m lost. First day of coming home from work, without Otto being there to bark at me, to pick him up and hold him. I don’t feel like I can cry now, but I hope I can, so that I don’t leave grief unfelt. I feel so horrible but of course the whole thing is starting to go underground.
I feel nothing, NOTHING! courtesy of Sgt. Schultz. Watching Dr. House, focusing on job, and 63 years of clamping down on pain. Can’t help it.
i feel that there is a lot of sorrow and pain and love and love lost in EVERY comment in this blog. Just got to read between the lines sometimes. So we keep on keeping on…
Otto; Thank you for your sharing. I always read you carefully. This is a huge insight you have painted. Even if known to every reader, it’s a lovely gift laid out like this.
Your ability to be totally open, “vulnerable,” is a popular word these days is amazing. You let it all hang out. That takes great courage. It happens accidentally when I get on a loose canon rant. But you seem totally present with it.
To some, maybe, most, people, their non human family members, they call pets, “my,” as in ,” mine,” denoting ownership,( like the marriage certificate.) They determine creature comfort and length of existence by logical financial measures. My neighbour’s lovely old Blue Tick Hound has her heated non attached heated suite. All he gives her are survival comforts, and a rare walk. No regular human interaction since his wife died 2 yr ago. He gave her about the same amount of attention. Then there are those of us who love unconditionally and share at least equitably with all family members we take on, down to the gold fish. And we think of their best interests and converse with them beyond, “go lie down, be quiet, and good dog.” And we grieve them when they die. I feel bad for the road kill; they had a right to live. I’ve yet to find a human who will extend that luxury to me. Perhaps, in reality it’s only to be expected from a parent, a mother in particular. I only add that to save someone from having to tell me. 1/2lol
That’s deep trauma. As an adult. Knowing that the day of Otto’s death was finally at hand. Getting out of bed and calling the vet’s and making a 9am appointment for euthanasia. Knowing that I was driving him to the vet to do this deed. Some crying and screaming in the car on the way, but not enough. Taking him and Sophie the other dachshund for their last short walk near the vet’s. he did not want to be put down on the grass, so I picked him back up. Going into the Vet’s, knowing what awaited us. He made it clear that he did not want to die. Holding him in the Vet’s exam room, waiting for the vet to come, sobbing. The kind vet explaining the procedure and taking him out of the room to get the catheter in his arm. The vet coming back later saying that Otto was already tranquilized. Now I was to hold him while the vet slowly dripped the final drug into Otto to slowly ease him down, then he pushed the rest of it. And said whatever he said, he is gone, I don’t remember what he said. Stuff to ease my pain…he was already close to the end…stuff like that. Then he was leaving and said to take all the time I needed. I petted Otto’s lifeless body for 10 mins and wept a little, and put Sophie on the table to see his death but she didn’t. I needed to scream. But you don’t do that at the vet’s, and so that scream remains in me. At least I wept. I have taken more than one pet in my life to be put to sleep, I don’t remember crying much at those times, so that grief is still in me. Some cultures more close to the ground allow their people (or at least their women) to grieve loudly, maybe middle eastern comes to mind. I think our culture tries to shove it under the rug, although I have certainly heard loud grieving at the vet’s by other pet parents. The vet techs saying Sorry as I left with Sophie. They sent me a card too. This is not the best summer that I want to remember. I was barely able to go to the retreat last year because otto was starting to become a real handful. So much pain.
> Otto,
> my heart goes out to you.
> M
Leslie,
I am very glad you had a good retreat.
You are absolutely right about the state of the blog. Despite some sincere and worthwhile entries by some individuals, I do not feel it is reflective of the best of primal therapy right now. That is why I generally do not participate anymore. There seems to be a lot of wading through pseudo-intellectual, dense and meaningless entries to find some meaning and to get something close to what I would in group or at a retreat. Again, there are some people like yourself and Margaret (and others) who have meaningful entries. Maybe Margaret’s point is the key: if enough of us write meaningful stuff reasonably often, it may return more to what it was a while back: something closer to an online primal group where you can get support and people can have honest reactions to each other.
Donal
Hello, Donal; By the time I ,” arrived,” here, the mold had been cast. I was at the PI 86/87. Had a ,” buddy,” in a neighbouring province for a few years. And feeling on my own since. I live in Maritime Canada. My work background is family social work, social activism, mediation, individual therapy, and Natural Health.
How would you describe a , ” meaningful entry ?”
How did it use to be, and what would the layout, for want of a better word, that would allow it to function in the way you see it most appropriate and helpful to post -,primalers ?
Do you envision more of a, post “Big Group,” model ?? Is there any value in addition to spontaneous posts of a more real time sceduled ” group.” Varying time zones and the absence of an independent person to provide impartial support raise some obstacles. Just thinking….
Thanks, David
David and others … again:- It is my feeling that if some of the responses were a little more direct and state just which comments and commentators they are disgusted with that might open things up a little more.
I do suspect that there are those that feel I am equally, or even more “disgusting” than Patrick. If that is the case I feel it would be more profitable towards resolution if we each were more specific. I feel that hinting can cause as many problems as is hoped to resolve … least-ways that is my experience.
To and for me, all feeling being expressed on a feeling blog are valid. There is nothing intrinsically terrible IMO, about anger or any other feeling. That to me is part of being human … on the proviso that it it expressed in such a way as to OWN that feeling … whatever it is.
One last point:- If things were getting “out of hand” I am sure Gretchen and/or Barry would be putting their ‘oar’ in. So far, neither has come forward with anything. I personally feel there is no need for them to do so. It will, IMO ‘all win out’.
I will read any and all responses to this one of mine, and if I feel it would be helpful … will respond.
Jack
Jack and Everyone, I think if more people would participate the blog could improve. But that’s probably unlikely to happen seeing what goes on here.One thing that bothers me a lot is Patrick’s endless diatribes againstprimal therapy and everything about it. I’m fine with the expressionof those opinions but not when they are never ending. What”s the point?It’s been going on many months even years. Diatribes on other topics are very tiresome aswell. Another thing is that the insults are pretty disgusting as well.Imagine this as a live group; with all the ranting, raving, lectures, and insultsI think everyone would leave the room. Patrick, you should consider attending a group and expressing all this stuff in person.Maybe you could then connect with something at a deeper level after everyone hasleft the room. Jack, your lectures to Patrick about primal seem to be a lost cause. Wouldn’tit be better to give it up, if possible? In my case, it would be healthier if I could just ignore all this crap, but I seem it havetrouble doing that. Phil
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 00:54:35 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – what I think you and maybe many others sort of misunderstand about me is – it is not necessarily just a ‘diatribe’ for diatribes sake. I have a big ‘personal’ issue about primal therapy mostly a negative one – believe it or not I do feel this blog has helped me a lot……………….I have a hard time expressing my own realizations about my own failures etc which is the other side of that coin. Like did primal therapy fail me or did I fail primal therapy? It doesnt really matter at this point but I feel it has been good for me and is still good for me to ‘explore’ a lot of this stuff.
I understand it is probably not so pleasant to have to read it. But and I hesitate to say this for fear of starting a whole new ’round’ but Jack being ready to pounce (I feel) on me all the time and this thing of quoting me and throwing it back at me I find very un-helpful. I mean it is hard for me to admit things but I feel if I do Jack will kind of be ‘crowing’ ha ha ha I told you so etc etc. This honestly makes it very hard for me and I think I might ‘progress’ through some of these issues better or quicker but is someone is at the ready to gloat or criticize etc…………………that’s a horrible environment to even try to express oneself. I mean it is beyond horrible it is stupid to even try but try I do. I am a sucker for punishment, I draw in on myself too it’s also connected to the self hatred I talked about.
I want to say also I agree with Leslie I think the atmosphere IS bad…………..and I am sure people probably think of me first in that regard. It’s not that I am not aware of all this but I FEEL ‘provoked’ by Jack really I would say only him. Like I would ask anyone here would they like or would they put up with constant badgering and ‘quoting back’ with a view to just fuck with me. I really doubt anyone would put up with that it is only me and my ‘masochistic’ tendencies and ability to take a lot of pain and tendency to ‘struggle’…………….anyway I do want to let people know I am not oblivious about the atmosphere and my ‘intentions’ are not bad even if I agree I can be quite ugly at times……………
I also do have some I believe substantive ‘issues’ with or about primal. I don’t think that should be off limits and I don’t see anything is served by a kind of head in the sand mentiality that primal is all hunky dory. I don’t believe it is but then what is? Deep down I feel a real sense of doom about the world nature especially so on one level it all seems a storm in a teacup really. If the oceans are dying and all the rest of it I don’t think Dr Kruse or Dr Janov will make much difference really. But in the meantime we (I) fight for and about things…………………
Patrick, What a joke! You want us to consider what you do here as “to explore a lot of stuff”.Maybe in one post out of every thirty. What I mostly see is a lot of bullying behavior and how you don’t give a shit about anyone. Your “exploring stuff” seems to be finding new insults and new ways to degrade and tear apartthe therapy and anyone interested in participating in it. Phil
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 02:30:29 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I take your point and will go over you comment several times later … but off the bat on first reading, the unlikehood of readers not re-acting … for whatever their reason, to me, has some history for each of us. It is at this point, I will quote Vivian who ofter suggested at the retreats (she was my assigned therapist) “Take a risk”.
The point of me “lecturing” was a point I made to Margaret on the blog and David in private. Patrick, as I read him from my 30 years of expereince of him would dominate the blog to the point of ‘everone’ leaving. I respond by way of countering his arguaments. Maybe I fail in that endeavior. Alternatively he could be pursuasive to doubters who only visit this blog and never comment.
For whatever my deeper reasonings (subliminal or otherwise) I am tempted to counter him. Not necessarily to change Patrick, but to ‘hopefully’ show there is another point of view. If that is me being deffensive, then feel free to tell me so … anyone
Jack
That is the kind of, “group'” I was looking for, and envisioned. Maybe it’s just my romantic dreaming self.
The mingling in the entry hall between the Big Group room and Individual rooms, was often as therapeutic as anything.
Donal – thank you for responding. I personally also know other good people like you who have gone on the blog and are disheartened and at times disgusted by its content.
Gone is the welcoming, sharing of pain and in its place is a gong show.
I have tried to create what I want to see, get and connect with on the blog for some time now. I recognize when others have too. Unfortunately, it gets smothered and the firestorm appears to take over again and again.
L.
> hi Donal!
> so good to hear you again, I truely hope you stick around!
> how are your studies and choice of direction with it?
>
> Leslie, one way to maybe make things easier is to receive the comments by mail then after a quick runover in case of possible disgust just a tap on the delete button will do the trick and even make you feel good, smiley..
> Patrick, don’t forget you were going to reply to my questions about how you’d like to go about your personal therapy in an ideal case, apart from the helalthy living issues.
>
> and I also think you might profit on looking into the fact Jack has on several occasions responded in a very positive and supportive way to you on the occasions you truely talked about your feelings.
>
> it also struck me what you said about being a sucker for punishment. it reminded me of what I mentioned a few times in the past about assuming a victim role.
> I am not analizing, as I do not understand what goes on there for yyou, it is only up to you to unravel what goes on in your heart.
>
> I refuse to be pessimistic about this blog, I strongly feel it is what we make of it, which is up to us.
>
> already right now it feels so much more constructive, for the time being, smiley.
>
> maybe by the time my comment gets posted it will all be rants again, hope not!
> I specially feel disgusted by the name calling, as that feels utterly useless and even destructive for all parties.
>
> we have a saying that more or less goes that who plants winds will harvest storm.
>
> M
Margaret: You truly are the staple of the blog and though there have been times when I felt you went on at great lengths about certain things, in hindsight I knew you needed to do that. In this comment what I liked most was:- ” I refuse to be pessimistic about this blog, I strongly feel it is what we make of it, which is up to us.” I agree wholeheartedly with that.
I was thinking over the recent comments this morning as I went for my early morning short walk, made my breakfast, then came to my computer to read my emails. I thought over some of the comments over the years, made by therapists that meant a great deal to me:- “What’s the feeling?” “Name the feeling”. “Keep it simple” “What did that do to you?” “What does the feeling want to say?” and the one I mentioned yesterday that Vivian on several times repeated:- “Take a risk”.
It is relatively easy to look back on the pleasures and joys; it’s somewhat harder to see and respond to the sadness’s … as I feel you Margaret over the loss of your cat … and Otto over the loss of his dog; Otto. It can be a little more complex dealing with anger and the worst of all for me is facing the terror.
Collectively we all make the blog … and blogging, from my expereience isn’t always pleasant … but then neither is life.
Jack
OK Margaret – but again and maybe this is the nub of the argument so to speak. IF I am now to go into (or try) about either the ‘failure’ of PT or MY ‘failure’ I immediately think ‘oh Jack will see red with this’ and I think why bother? I can see a little bit now where Jack is coming from he is afraid of me as an ‘influencer’ in a bad direction. He maybe sees me as he did in the past where I ended up running a pretty large company. There I was the ‘boss’ and of course even then he seemed to have the attitude that I did not ‘deserve’ that or something. Anyway and I am trying to follow his thinking here maybe he saw this blog as his kind of ‘private’ domain and here I come taking over that or wrecking that too or whatever.
I don’t want to speculate too much as I am sure I will be ‘wrong’ but the funny thing is I in my own way saw Jack as an ‘influencer’ also and IMO not that good of a one. So in a strange way we are kind of playing the same game. I had a kind of ‘pristine’ image or version of primal in my mind and saw it ‘ruined’ in many ways. To me Jack was one of those ways but again please I am just saying ‘to me’. When I went back to therapy in 2012 and the retreat there I saw others that I had a similar feeling about. This can get kind of ‘deep’ like maybe to me ANY ‘instance’ of it in ‘reality’ takes away from my ‘idealized’ version of it
Something happened to me a few weeks ago………………I went to a friends house and by chance there was a copy of the “Journal of Primal Therapy Vol 1 No 2” there.Those were usually about 100 pages I could not stop reading I read the whole thing right there. But what amazed me it brought back the intense LOVE I had for primal I used to devour all that mostly by myself living in London in the 1970’s. EVERY single article seemed brilliant to me. Like a great album or something Dr Holden kicks it off (first track) “Levels of Consciousness” and it’s like now all Janov’s inchoate understanding is becoming ‘scientific’, Janov follows up with a killer second track(!) where he ‘interprets’ Holden. Other great stuff to by others and towards the end 2 beautiful’ prose poems’ about the process of being born. Just reading it again brought it back to me the ‘love’ above all I had for it. It seemed to put within it’s 100 pages all my yearnings, dreams, understandings such as they were. It was ‘scientific’ ‘philosophical’ \’poetic’ all by turns and let’s not forget the ‘hope’ it gave me that I would be released from all of my shyness, demons, lifelong pains’ etc etc.
Why am I going on about this? Well I think it was such an ‘ideal’ world……………..COULD any ‘real’ world compete? And it connects somehow to what I was talking about a few months ago like anything ‘near’ me is worthless, how we looked to England how our OWN better my OWN world was ‘worthless’. Yesterday sitting in the coffee shop I thought it is so strange, imagining me as an infant somehow THERE in that place and that moment was/is ‘perfection’ perfection in that it was the only time when need met fulfillment or whatever…………..but so briefly and then the opposite feeling kicks in. I was madly running away from that how could that be ‘worth’ anything. I am not explaining this properly but what I am saying is or trying to my ‘idealized’ version of primal was almost certain to or had to crash in reality.And crash it did and hard I would say. My ‘funny’ stories about some of the moving companies has a point to them (and I still ‘owe’ David another one)………………it’s like there was the ‘dream’ as in the Journal of PT and now there is the ‘reality’ of trying to scratch out a living doing moving. Working in an environment of well let’s say less than perfect versions of ‘worker rights’ or whatever. I remember in the real early days coming back at the end of the day from a moving job and the driver told me if you lose a dolly the owner will take it out of your pay. And I go but ‘that’s illegal’ and the guy shrugs his shoulders like he does it because he can I suppose.
I don’t want to say it was all bad it was a kind of ‘wild west’ out here……………..all bets were off it was ‘fun’ in a way. Freedom from just about everything a kind of chaotic crazy life in many ways. But even that now looking back on it I think it was pretty ‘irresponsible’ of Janov to think people could come here mostly with no visible means of support and kind of pitch them into a cauldron of sink or swim and expect them to delve into their deepest and most vulnerable places. It hardly seems possible as I say before my defenses were UP ‘survival’ was at stake a new country, strange ways of doing things, I could not even drive when I came here within 6 months I am commandeering a huge truck around LA, maybe ‘impressive’ in one way but in another in terms of ‘therapy’ or whatever far from ideal I would say
At the PI now they have a mat at the front door where in numerous languages (including Gaelic I was glad to see “Failte”) it says “Welcome” and though that is nice I could not help thinking how much better it would have been if primal was now ‘working’ in all those different countries. Janov though he had the ‘goods’ and dragged everyone here to ‘get’ them………………I think that was one of his greatest mistakes. It also shows an ego and an arrogance that was not warranted. Even at the time in the 1970’s I did NOT want to come to the US, I ‘waited’ and waited for primal to come to England and maybe eventually Ireland……………….but it after they telling me it would then changed again and told me it wouldn’t. As I say even at the time I felt going to the US was a ‘bad’ idea for me I really really did not want to do it or do primal there. It was one of my big ‘regrets’ at the time and actually continues to be to this day…………………………
When my Mom was dying last Summer she said to me “We (her and my Dad)should never have let you go to America” and at the time I thought that kind of ‘funny’ like she did not have the ‘power’ to stop me. I was very strong willed in those days I was going to do whatever I wanted (my attitude)………….but thinking about it now (tears) it was her way of thinking a very ‘old’ way of thinking. She was looking out for her son, she didn’t want me to have a more difficult like than I needed to have.
A few years ago I was talking to her and I was saying ‘I want you to know since I have come out here I have worked very hard, I have always done my best, it has not been easy but I want you to know etc etc’ and she said ‘yes it has been the hard road you choose and if I may say so also the foolish one’. That knocked me back a bit at the time but again I see now her ‘old’ ways.Her people were ‘primitive’ parents kind of ‘owned’ their children in a way but also in a way of looking out for them, guiding them from their own instincts and experience. I in my ‘ego and arrogance’ (to use my words about Janov) at the time though she knew ‘nothing’ she was just ‘stupid’ etc etc.Now I see things a bit different. “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”
Changing things up here a bit this news just came out from Edward Snowdon’s leaks how Israel assassinated one of the top Syrian generals back in 2008. A country they were not at war with but hey………….they do what they want. Syria is still the ‘bad’ guy of course and Assad their leader is ‘evil’ according to the demented propaganda here.We here are just more or less dupes of Israel lies.
I imagine people here do not care for me even talking about this……………but it bothers me. This ‘deal’ with Iran we are constantly told “Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism” of which no evidence is EVER produced………….yes here we HAVE proof that Israel is not just a ‘sponsor’ of terrorism it IS a terrorist state. They assassinated Iranian scientists right out in the open guys riding around in motor-cycles inside Iran just bang your’e dead.. These guys (Israelis) are worse than Columbian drug mafia types who had a similar MO.
But move on, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain…………….la la la everything is fine with the world……………….
There is no doubt that the Asaad regime is as demented as they come. Israel, should be tried in the Hague. Israel and Britain are known to have the most heavy hitting assassination squad in existence, The anointed can operate outside the rule of law and decency with impunity.Operating like movie characters with magnetic pipe bombs, etc. But like World Wrestling it shall unfold according to the script. President Obama did not give special voice to Netanyahu. I am so often absorbed by these kinds of realities, that go without a spirit of resolution A friend sent me a link, the 9 Nanas, nine mothers, wives, of various races and colors, from Western Tennessee who for the past 30 years have met every day at 4 AM to plot being a positive force in the lives of folks who needed a helping hand. They paid their bills, delivered care boxes, clothing, and their signature pound cakes, each box complete with a note, ” Somebody Loves You.” And until they were only recently outed, they did this all anonymously and using their own money saved by taking on domestic home chores they had previously farmed out. I want to be them when I grow up !!!! No mention of them being the products of any therapy. If this is neurotic, I want to be that flavour.
> Patrick, thanks for your elaborate answer so far.
> something still is not really clear to me
> so do you mean that if say, if you would have stayed in Ireland and gone over for visits for therapy it might have worked out better for you?
>
> or if the whole setting of actual therapy would be available in Ireland it would work for you?
>
> or is there something in its actual practice you would want to be different, and if so, what, and how would you like it to be?
>
> and maybe a very personal one, what would you want or really neeed from your therapist, either in a practical way or at a feeling level, or basically on a deeper level too, which old need would you like most to be met?
>
> I am not trying to analize, am truely curious about this.
> M
Margaret – and I could be wrong about this but even when I was in London in the 1970’s and messing around or trying to with a so called ‘mock’ therapy outfit (which it was really) anyway Janov does one of his ‘flying visits’ promoting “The Feeling Child” he was on BBC and interviewed by one of the music papers the NME..( “New Musical Express”)And they ask him specifically about this ‘mock therapy’ outfit and he does says they are very ‘dangerous’. I have talked about this here before but it was a big moment for me in that it FELT so wrong. People who were ‘inspired’ by him and modeled their whole thing on his writings and his works……………..NO ‘reach out’ of any kind. Quite the opposite just condemn them and cast them to the outer darkness.
That FELT very wrong even if even at that point kind of agreed with him. But it rubbed me very wrong and like I said before sometimes just your gut feeling tells you something even if in your mind you are telling yourself something else. It ‘told’ me that he was ‘exclusivist’ that ONLY he had the ‘answer’ that he was not interested in a broader ‘movement’ that he did not care for the people there (like me) trapped with the in-ability to pay out $6600.00 I am guessing about $25,000 in today money, he cared only about money maybe and the people who had it. All unverbalized impressions……………..that I feel later all turned out the be true. Just about every one of those has hobbled the primal ‘movement’ and to this day these kinds of problems cling to it IMHO.
OK Margaret I am not really answering your questions but I will approach it in a while. I have to go off for the day and also I don’t want to be ‘dominating’ this blog………………..as after all I am mostly just a ‘problem child’ or a ‘trouble child’
Warning:- For those bored, disturbed, irritated or distraught by my alledged lecturing … delete this comment immediately. For the unintiated I feel there COULD be some use in this, my comment; which is in reality a counter response to Patrick.
At the risk of coming across as lecturing (some make a handsome living out of it, though it never paid me much of any money). As I read “The Primal Scream” there was a whole NEW WAY, discovered of dealing with ourselves. The psychological profession up to that point had dealt with it’s patients through thinking and reasonings in the hope of enlightening. All that was blown away right at the moment of Danny Wilson’s scream. Janov, as he stated, hadn’t a clue what had taken place. I can only assume that he too was disturbed by what had taken place … but Danny came out of it … and stated:- “I’ve done it … I don’t know what …. but I can feel”. From that point on as I read him, he Janov, played the tape over and over again until some sence of it came to him. Seemingly, he was determined to find out what it all meant.
Therein to me, was Janov’s integrity and later his genius when he figured it out, after trying the same technique he tried with Danny, with other patients. His recounting of all this intrigued thousands … by his book becoming a best seller. In a word FEELINGS (and their expression) … not reasoning, logic or pure thinking.
Alas, as I saw thereafter; what was taking place, was that professional psychologist and psychiatrist did with it; RAN right into their heads; believing their studies gave them a better understanding than the ‘run of the mill’ readers. It was at that point as I read Janov that he realized a potential danger from the thinking and reasonings of those other professionals.
It needed, as I felt Janov saw it, that until and unless one had had a “re-living” of ones OWN past and unconscious feelings (subconciaous, my prefered word), then there was a tendency to see it all through thinking, reasoning and logic. Therein to me, is the rub.
Jack
Not a reply really but something that came to me. In the late 60’s early 70’s we,”Heads,” cool long haired guys and hippy chicks, we constantly accused the, “Establishment,” of being in their heads, not feeling, not being based in reality; our black friends preferred the phrase, ” living a face.” Of course so were we.
Not only does unresolved pain effect how we see our lives, the world, our being, every molecule of us has been altered hasn’t it ??
David: Yep!
Jack
David – doesn’t this kind of show that the whole thing about the importance of feelings and not being in one’s head was a broad cultural thing at the time. My take partly on this at least is that Janov ‘hijacked’ that moment or tried and ‘patented’ it or tried to. So in some ways far from being a ‘progressive’ force he ‘bottled’ it and tried to sell it back to us. In the broad sense his influence is close to nil and in his attempt to ‘own’ and ‘control’ feelings he has set things back as much as brought them forward. In that way I see him like the Oppenheimers who own and control the De Beers diamond empire. There is a ‘greed’ there in the center of it that has not served it well.
I wonder a bit about the Danny Wilson story…………..in some ways it looks like Janov trying to look as he imagines a real ‘scientist’ would. I used to consider that whole thing a bit of a ‘creation myth’ but that video of him meeting with Ortiz the artist who initially inspired him shows that all that actually happened and was based on real events. So actually I should assume the Danny Wilson story is true also
For fuck’s sake STOP using YOU perceptions and imaginations about what Janov is/was doing. You don’t know nor it seems, will you ever. All anyone can do is read the book/s and operate from there. It initially impressed you, me and thousands of others. Leave it that. All else seem like you bitching cos you didn’t get whatever it was that you expected. Many did. Quote:- “The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars … but in ourselves that we are underlings”.
We don’t judge William Shakespeare for what he did in his private life, but soley on his works. Janov deserves the same consideration. Your theories, perceptions, idea and conjectures are meaningless to the rest of us, I gather.
Jack
I am judging him ONLY on his ‘works’ and they come up pretty ‘short’ IMO. I am going very much by ‘results’ and again same thing. So for fuck’s sake STOP telling me to STOP……………..see 2 can play that game.It’s pretty idiotic and though you may think it has a kind of spontaneous ring about it it falls pretty short IMO again…………….blog alert another tedious round and who started it……………I say Jack he probably says me. Jack to me you personify how ’empty’ it is 82 y.o. and well I better say no more………………
Jack – I really appreciate the fact that you did not ‘quote’ me. I really do.
“Sharanda Jones — prisoner 33177-077 — struggled to describe the moment in 1999 when a federal judge sentenced her to life in prison after her conviction on a single cocaine offense. She was a first-time, nonviolent offender.” Jones was not innocent. She committed a crime. But she’s done 16 years in prison, and she’s got a lifetime to go. You should read this piece by WaPo’s Sari Horowitz: From a first arrest to a life sentence.
Ol’ Dubya never saw hard time for frequent recreational use of the same substance.
I had hoped that a spin off of our neurosis resolution would be also a resolution of the Charles Dickens Wild West. A stable full of Ted Cruze’s isn’t terribly heartening. What do y’all think about that. Our place in the larger world. A friend of Gretchen’s told me years back that , ” …. Gretchen volunteers at a palliative care hospice.” That would indicate that involvement and caring for the broad human condition is not at cross purposes to being a bona fide primaler.. Sorry, I don’t know how to voice that without sounding sarcastic, so I’ll own that. I know that escalated Ms. Castle even higher in my esteem for her.
I would like to repost, because I think it is very fitting, that when I told Barry, Dr. Bernfield, that a former patient who was still involved with a PI supported group was naysaying, totally trashing Primal Therapy, the PI and some therapists, that he told me to save my money and go home, Barry’s reply was only that he had great respect for that man because he had the courage to speak his mind. It brought up all kinds of feelings in me, which I didn’t even recognize as what I needed therapy to do. I was waiting to get in the magical room where Barry would chant the magic words,my entire sick life would be up on Big Screen, as I had witnessed with primaling psychotic patients, and I would be gradually reborn. The fact that in that sentence, he had brought up my fear of rejection, of being convicted of being a liar, of getting thrown out, of never being good enough, all important scenes; that all went over my head. I was going to experience Primal as a therapist not a patient. Just realized that last one; rather elitist of me, eh, aligning with power. Pretty messed up.
David – I wonder why I can or could never get that ‘love’ from Barry. I was/am doing much the same lol………………………..I saw him last Sunday and he along with everyone else still seemed quite ‘un-impressed’ by me……….Damn it!! LOL
I think I made this observation while a patient, but certainly after back in the real world. Barry is extremely vigilant not to show any response that would hint to a patient how he would have him feel about anything. I have seen in men’s group and mixed group him ask a logical question, “Why,” about an issue raised and watch patients go nuts as they attached their individual interpretations to the significance of him asking, ” Why.” From that envisioning, concocting, how he felt about the issue, writing the script so it were. A much more efficacious approach than asking it as, ” What do each of you think about that ?” Soliciting nice sterile answers.
I would wager that he holds to that best therapy practice with any potential patient. I have confidence in his integrity. I don’t know the situation of you meeting each other. If it is as suggested on the blog that you crashed a group, then there is a contract between paying patients and the PI.
It’s tougher being dead honest with people I like, and for the record I quite like you and understand a bit. Actually it’s just that I want to keep you telling the wonderful driver experiences.
David – let’s keep this in perspective. I didn’t ‘crash’ anything including my car thank God. I mentioned the word or idea of ‘gate crashing’ as it reminded me of my mis-spent youth in hippydom and squatland so let’s not let any ‘urban legends’ be given legs. But please not let’s us get into “If it is as suggested on the blog that you crashed a group, then there is a contract between paying patients and the PI”…………….I would not expect you of all people to get ‘legalistic’ about it.
Doon get yer water all hot.. lol I was trying to cover all possibilities; you left the story full of holes, and thus open to all sorts of interpretations as to how you came upon the group of Primalers on a field trip. Now, you’re alluding to not crashing your car, so was the encounter at a cross walk ??? lol
David,
you asked about my reaction yesterday. I was express something spontaneously, though there is some reality there regarding the blog. This seems to be corroborated by several others on here. I would like the blog to be similar to group where people are being vulnerable and open up. The types of discussions that go on here do not occur in group. It seemed that in the past more people were vulnerable talking about their feelings in a direct way which I could connect with. Now, it seems there is more cognitive discussion. I think some of the intellectual topics explored on here would be more suitable for college classes or some internet forums established for that kind of thing.
Jack suggested above that people be more specific in who or what they are reacting to, and this would enhance the blog. Apart from the obvious contradiction that Jack himself was unspecific in that particular post (he could have named somebody and something they said, thus following his own suggestion) I do not feel there is as much to react to on here in the way we do in primal.
Of course there are exceptions: Larry and Margaret consistently talk about their life and feelings, Leslie and Jo’s posts about the retreat made me feel something. As did Otto talking about the loss of his dog, and Patrick talking about what his mother said. This is what we do at the Institute and in buddying: I would like to see more of that here.
It is more limited that group, of course: no real time and not in person. However, people still get feelings out of it when we approach it like group.
Does that make sense?
Donal.
Donal: In response to me …. fair enough.
Jack
Hello Donal; Are you a PI therapist ??
I was a patient at PI 86/87. I had a buddy for several years . Feeling solo since. Beyond post group was interacting in the hallway. Both were were productive.The hallway mingling gave some idea of who we were in the real world. Do you not see any value in the blog including social discourse some discussion and maybe even involvement as a group in the real world that would add another dimension to our, ” primal community.”
In post group there is the impartial moderator in terms of therapists, to offer support, or to direct feelings at appropriate times. I have seen some pretty heated inter patient exchanges in post group that required a skillful nudge to help both patients. That would be lackng on the blog. I do not see to my satisfaction any patient being so appointed.
My hackles were raised by you telling me the right way to do it, like I don t know what Primal is about and was in need of tutoring. I reacted to Margaret early on for merely telling me I was welcome. Like you, concerning me, I likewise have no idea except by comments where anyone else is at with their therapy, if there is any game playing residual behaviour. I have known people who intellectualized that they wre enormously advanced in their therapy and that they were the truth and the light. I am very selective in who I place confidence.
People can,” talk,” on, or ” cry,” on ad nauseum about a scene. But the hall mark of being stuck is languishing in the same scene, not feeling it or using it as a defense against feeling.To me that suggests the scene either has not been felt , or it is not the pivotal issue, that there is something else. How would that be handled? Are people to be left with their defenses?
I do that in the real world when I know the person/patient has no likely alternatives. It would be cruel and inhuman to attack life stabilizing defenses.
I look forward to you reading your opinions.
thanks
David
David,At the retreat we all received tee shirts with “therapist” on the front.I’m not sure why and I don’t know if anyone asked. But in a certain sensewe are maybe all therapists. I received useful comments in group at the retreat and was listened to. Also from my buddy and everyone else I talked to there.Not necessarily relevant to what you said but I thought mention it anyway.At home the past week I’m feeling the lack of all of that support. Phil Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:03:07 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yeah, I suppose everyone we meet has the possibility of being a therapist in the spirit of interactions being a potential catalyst.
Was there any group discussion around the Tshirts, why??, the significance ???
When you speak of the community interaction at group I feel a longing inside me. Glad you were able to go.
David
Jack,
I appreciated you responding to what I wrote. Though I was just stating an objective fact and have no personal axe to grind with you, I did feel some concern about embedding it in a response to David and not addressing you directly.
Donal
Donal: I took your remark in the spirit that you say you offered it, and I did not think you were getting at me. As you said, having no “axe to grind”. One of the great features I find with the blog, is seeing how others see me. I personally find that helpful.
Also, It did not bother me that you embedded it within a comment to David.
Jack
David,
No, I am not a therapist, PI or otherwise.
The only therapists I have seen posting n this blog are Barry and Gretchen, mostly Gretchen who I assume follows all posts and contributes as she feels is appropriate.
You raise a good point: therapists anchor groups and give them direction, and intervene to protect, encourage and engage people. On the blog this cannot be done in real time. However, Gretchen does all these things on the blog as much as anyone could, so it is the next best thing to a group despite the obvious disadvantages.
I am not really suggesting there is a right way to do anything, but in group and at retreats people end up on the same page, for want of a better phrase. I think the lack of stated rules, methods, or conventions in primal results in us all being safe enough to express out feelings. Really, the only guidelines in therapy are to participate and make yourself vulnerable by being honest about how you feel. Everything else unfolds in its own time.
Of late, it seems that is not occurring on here. It is much easier in groups as there is no substitute for physical presence and the lack of distractions from your feeling,
Do you ever go to LA or retreats…….perhaps not from what your wrote?
Donal
I’ve not been back to LA since 87. The likelihood of that happening is remote, much to my chagrin. Returned home to become a single parent, and never got back. My PI buddy married and Primal became secondary. I quite understand the process. It was that protecting, encouraging and engaging to which I was alluding. Sometimes connecting the person to the the ,” real,” source of a feeling when they are off track, or when they might be stuck.
David,
you talked about life-stabalizing defenses. That is something I learned the importance of back a few years ago. I used to think defenses were something to eliminate as quickly as possible so all the feeling could come up. Of course, the defenses gradually disappear as they are no longer needed. As Barry the therapist has said to me several times, your body will use defenses to the exact amount to defend against the pain that remains (I am paraphrasing Barry here, but I think I got hid point across here).
Of course you can stop using certain defenses you are conscious of to set the stage for feeling, or to get deeper into current feelings, But even if it was possible to eliminate all at once, which it is not (your mind would not allow it, and many are unconscious anyway), a person would just be a dysfunctional mess and not be able to feel/integrate.
Donal.
What I meant is that it is unkind to dismantle the defenses of a person who has nothing else. Like, I’m pissed off again by you talking down to me as if you think you are my superior, have some higher knowledge and I’m in need of you educating me about Primal. I find your albeit civil tone arrogant and haughty..How would you know where I’m at ? And I don’t know you. If I unload on you for being arrogant will you be harmed. Is that just your manner of speaking or do you think you are superior. ? Is English a second language ?? So I am being careful.
Just for reference how long have you been Primaling ??
I am cognizant , too, of, Why, I would decide to let myself be affected by a stranger who means nothing to me.
Defenses come in strange forms. Sometimes the feeling is the defense.
Barry has a myriad of fabulous sayings. One I often use is, ” If you get on the wrong train, every stop is the wrong stop.” I once asked him if he was the author of christ’s handbook of better parables. He made some joke about his Jewish ethnicity making that an unlikely fit.
David, personally I didn’t see Donal’s comment in any way talking down to you.
David and Donal,
I was happy to hear a couple of Barry’s pearls of wisdom!
I feel it
Hi David. I don’t know you, but have a comment — I can work out how you would feel “talked-down-to” from Donal’s comment, but since I have known him from past retreats, I know it as just his style of speech, and I don’t think he means any condescension.
Feeling bad. Watching youtube’s of Grateful Dead. Kind of depressing to see their later shows, how old they had gotten. I am old and this is horribly depressing. With Otto’s death, I have fallen into a funk from which I will never crawl out of. This is my finish. My grandmother once said to me, it is horrible to get old. It is her birthday today, but she died long ago, and she was not a person you could get close to. I am pretty much tired of every thing that exists. Going to the birthday tomorrow of my younger kid’s 1 year-old. No fun there. 2nd said we were dead to him last Christmas, and just got back in contact last month. However, his wife has blackballed my first son from coming for reasons better left unsaid. So the whole thing is shit to me. I feel like white trash around his wife’s family, who have seen the baby every day for a year, we have seen him just a few times.I have no more expectations from life, except that most likely it will get worse and worse. Can’t even cry this week. Work gets more and more boring, but since I have to focus intently at work, I have not thought much about Otto this week. Which is probably a bad thing. Well anyway China Cat Sunflower/I know you rider is a little uplifting, even when they were old, they played this well. Playing in the band, also uplifting, one of my favorites. Cant cry now, too late.
Well just fucking numb. Uncle John’s band but I feel nothing. I can’t believe the mountain of pain kicking me around.
Black cat howling and wanting to be petted or to go out into the black night. Other dog/cats sacked out because that’s all they got going on right now. When I saw the post about how tee shirts with THERAPIST were given out at the retreat, it triggered my worst fear. Anyway, I really know so little about PT. I was in group once and someone said something about their breakfast or coffee, and I asked them about it, and they burst into tears. Another time, I was in group. I was near a feeling and it look like the therapist was moving on to someone else, and a patient who was always kind to me, he said to me, looks like you are still in the feeling or you look sad or something like that, and that brought out my tears. Other times, I hear patients in group saying, well, I don’t want to play therapist (or some shit like that), which always made my blood boil and made me reluctant to open my mouth when I had something to say to another patient (related to how sad they looked or whatever). Anyway, my worst fear is, that when I can finally afford to go back to group, the PI will have shuttered its doors, and the Primal Community will be all that is left, and my success with being in the Primal Community remains dismal from start to finish. Ok this GD video is just way out, this is the worst jam I ever heard. Damn.
ok black throated wind is kinda speaking to me, in the down place i am finding myself. maybe i stay up late and see if i can shed at least one tear.
I read somewhere to day that the original Schism or split in the Catholic Church between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox had to do with a dispute about ‘original sin’. The Easterners disagreed that we were born ‘sinners’ that by virtue of just being human we were automatically ‘sinners’ which was Rome’s view.
I found that very interesting like that’s a big point and a big difference. And I thought how deep that is in me or was in Ireland growing up. I noticed with with all my younger siblings after my Mom ‘had’ them in the Hospital and she usually stayed if I remember correctly about 2 weeks in the Hospital well on the way home with the new baby it was very important and more than that really it HAD to be done. What had to be done was to stop at our local Church and have the baby baptized. And there was something very beautiful and sacred about it the baby would be taken out of the car and brought into the Church and the ‘holy water’ of Baptism would be sort of poured on it’s forehead.
But of course the ‘message’ also was the baby was ‘unclean’ or like a little ‘savage’ whose soul if left to itself was on it’s way to perdition. I have kind of figured out from talking to my Mom as she was dying last Summer that maybe one reason she stayed up to 2 weeks in the Hospital is she it seems did breastfeed us for that time but not when we went home. She said to me once she got home the ‘feeding’ became a problem. I noticed she didn’t say ‘breast feeding’ and that it typical the puritanism was so severe. Even as she was dying my Mom though I felt being very honest and brave about everything could not say ‘breast feeding’. And it’s such a tragedy and it was the same situation when we got home…………….what I picked up from my Mom is breast feeding in the house was ‘taboo’ she could not be seen doing that by well whomever was there my aunt, my grandmother and I am pretty sure my Dad.
LIke they bring the baby into the world by having sex and now it’s here to see her breast feeding was considered ‘taboo’ and not to be allowed. That’s what I mean by my Mom’s instincts were always there and given her head and freedom would have breast fed us. I am pretty sure now that was the purpose of the fairly long Hospital stay. Like I said before I felt ‘loved’ by her like a young sheep or calf but once we went home I had to take my chances almost with the other children AND the calves etc. A pretty ‘quick’ course in infant hood! Now get on with living and taking care of yourself almost.
There is another aspect of this………………..there was this phrase growing up ‘living in sin’ was the phrase. It referred to two people living together (having sex!) without being married. To me it had a very alluring though also taboo sense about it. But it just stuck me today the ‘living in sin’ would have started already IF the baby had not been baptized and IF the breast feeding had continued. Again it all seems such a tragedy and waste really the VERY things that made living worth while were ‘taboo’ and all the things that made life difficult and painful were the ‘values’ we had or were told to have. I now realize all of this rubbed my Mom the wrong way too she felt herself a prisoner in a situation she did not understand or ‘agree’ with but just like us she had to just ‘get on with the program’ In England especially to this day they use the phrase a lot ‘oh just get on with it’ I noticed in Ireland they have what to me is a nicer one kind of meaning the same thing they say ‘work away’. But the ‘work away’ I like it has a very soft and accepting feeling to it. LIke I was in a shop and I am kind of thumbing threw different newspapers trying to decide which one to get and I say ‘excuse me I am just trying to decide here’ and the shop lady says ‘ah work away’. Many times during the Summer I heard that and it seemed really nice. Better that ‘get on with it’………………
Glad to see you here again for a while at least Donal. I have been silently ‘working away’ on my Irish primal mafia idea but I am BADLY out-numbered………………….but we are the little nation that could…………….well we were now we are just another euro-victim. Greeks to day us later……………..
your account is so well written that your feeling is palpable
For me, I saw a depth of thought, emanating out of this comment of yours. Much of which I agreed with (for what that is worth). But I would like to carry the discussion further, in as breif a manner as I can for the moment, Cos it’s bringing up a feeling
The creation of Judasim was born out of babylon, no doubt from what we in the west deem, Arab stock. It was thought through by a profets. Not a Messiah, they are still waiting for her … him … or whomever. As I was taught in my classes of Religious instruction, the first gospel of the new testament was written 40 years after the assumed death of a Messiah. The other gospels were based mainly on the first gospel, Mark, and quite some years after him. The other monotheistic religion emunated with another profet … Mohamed. Christianity is the only religion that was supposedly created by … one conceived (in other words fucked) by some holy spirit.
A Messiah. Presumably a holy messanger.
Just as in your comment the baby until baptized is unclean, (and even afterwards not totally cleansed … and that sex, until sanctified in a church ritual is nasty, dirty, aweful and sinful. To abandon breast feeding … for which I presume is the real fuction of ‘tits’ (as oppsed to brests wihch both men and other animals have) … was not meant to be looked upon by children and relatives … maybe not even the father
The feeling running around me right now is “fucking crazy” and “deprivation of a natural instinct”, from a woman having carried a baby inside here body for nine months.
How must the baby have reacted to that deprevation ???????????????.
There really is something wrong with us humans (and we have the conciet to believe we are an intelligent creature) Yezus kristopholus. It pisses me off.
Jack
Makes it all feel so hopeless.
There is so much insanity around sex and birthing. The C Section; doc playing golf at 2 birth surgeries completed by 12. I remember when it was so rare, and, how we felt really bad for mom and babe; when we pondered what effect that it had on the baby, being deprived of the natural experience Now medical science has determined that a myriad of infant/child problems, including natural immunities is irrefutably caused by CSection; i.e.: the baby does not come into contact with Moms historical bacterial genome. Hearing that news conference, ” Wow,” I naively think, tearing up, ” finally they are going to abandon this factory farming process, and return to natural birthing.” Leboyér so clearly showed that beautiful process. But no, the C Sections will become the standard, and they will swab mom’s vaginal canal and inoculate the baby artificially.
A scourge on humanity. Taking a natural, beautiful process and turning it into a medical nightmare, and an eternal destructive imprint.
David: Me thinks, you left out the last short paragraph in your comment. “What did that do to you?” … but then that just me being facetious. Sorry!!!!
Jack
Oh, my opening sentence encapsulates that, plus furious. Sitting with it makes me feel anaesthetized, hopeless, face contorted ,
David: Your opening sentence intimated that we all felt that way … but I gather that the surgeon going off to his round of golf, after the c section, wasn’t feeling that way. Had you finished it off with your last line in this comment that would have made it clear to me “how YOU felt”.
Not meant to be ‘a put down’, but for me, it is an example how we each of us often are not totally direct. And I include myself. What I find real useful from others, is how they are able to hold the mirror up to me. That is an essential part of my ongoing therapy.
Jack
Thinking a bit more about having 2 weeks with my Mom and only my Mom (tears)…………….it’s like it was understood as a kind of ‘sacred’ time. It was a Hospital it’s true so it was a medical facility but in those days the influence of the Church was strong(er)…………..2 weeks it seems it was of breast feeding and my Mom not hassled to distraction by farm chores other kids and so on. It was probably a ‘magic time’ for me and almost the last one I had. It only came back to a degree when I was ‘farmed out’ or ‘given away’ to my Mom’s people from about 2 to 3.5 years old. I still ‘remember’ those days a bit and how loved and special I felt. I was like a little “King” to them the only child there they could not do enough for me.Then played with me listened to me fed me took me on rides in the pony and trap…………..even now talking about it if felt like Heaven
My Mom told me when I came back home they were all a bit amazed at how ‘advanced’ I was with my words in both languages and even my ‘maths’. They (my Mom’s people) had a beautiful colored ‘ball frame’ where you could move this little colored balls along a wire and ‘count’ and ‘subtract’ etc. Anyway my Mom told me I was ‘ahead’ of my brother who was 14 months older than me.
Sometimes I wonder where I got my ‘strength’ such as it is and it feels like those two things at least in my mind/feeling now. Also I think it created a lot of ‘confusion’ for me I was exposed to two very different worlds the magical primitive world of my Mom’s people and the harsh intellectualized pragmatic world of my Dad. But growing up I ‘sided’ with my Dad and his way of thinking………………….. now I start to see the another side
finally crying again. but z and the kid are here, and i cry loud, and it dont want them to hear me. Sophie dog chewing on a bone reminded me of giving Otto a bone in the last few months. he tried to chew on it a little, and then he would push himself over into a crouching position and go to sleep next to me. He did that many many times in his last few months, and I miss it. Bad day for me at other kid’s first birthday party. I hate being around people, and his dumb family especially.
Phil, You are the only one who asked about the tee shirts!! 🙂 Gretch
Lay Down Sally (Live from Crossroads 2010)
Honky Tonk Woman Sheryl Crow with The Rolling Stones
Steve Winwood, Eric Clapton – Can’t Find My Way Home
Eric Clapton, Steve Winwood – Presence of the Lord
TRAFFIC – THE LOW SPARK OF HIGH-HEELED BOYS – The Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys (1971) HiDef
************keeping me sane tonight***********
Definitely “Can’t Find My Way Home” Steve Winwood, I think with Blind Faith. I listened to that a lot.
but these are the ones i listened to during my infrequent rides to big group after starting at the PI in 1985. Blind Faith Sea of Joy BeachBoys fun fun fun. hmmm, still aiming for that and still missing. fun and joy.
Patrick mentioned last Sunday “interacting with some of the ‘retreaters’. Did I slip over the line probably in their eyes yes in my own not really or if I did it’s all good…………….” and added, “I better not say so much but it involved a bit of what we used to call ‘gate crashing’ by me.Nothing intentional but one thing kind of led to another but in my opinion as I say I felt ‘it’s all good'”. And later, “I dunno just the use of the word ‘gate crashing’ appeals to me. Reminds me of the hippy and squatting days when usually the way to any ‘party’ was to gate crash it. …It just has a good kind of anarchic feeling to it.” “Gretchen was cool one of the few – others who kind of anoint themselves in her place not so much in my humble opinion……………”
I felt Patrick is almost painting himself as a swashbuckling rebel, minimizing what really happened — rather than appearing to be out-of-control or “stalkerish”. I was at first reluctant to post this, because I felt so hurt about it, but now feel I should say what happened, and how I felt.
Patrick was at the Institute before Gretchen’s group, and one person had seen him “slinking along a wall” outside, meaning he was stooping to avoid being seen, and hiding somewhat behind a bush or hedge. Several people said it felt like stalking since he was hiding behind a fence. Gretchen said he definitely was hiding behind a wall, and did not want to be seen. But someone pointed him out, and then he asked Gretchen if he could come to group, and she told him no, that the person he wanted to see was not there at all. He left, but later came back and tried to get in, asking for someone else. There were others who were not comfortable with him there, so the person who answered the door simply followed the group’s decision, and would not let him in. No one “anointed themselves in Gretchen’s place”, as Patrick wants to believe.
I arrived at group about an hour late, knowing nothing of all this, and I did not see him, but I wasn’t looking. Gretchen answered the door, as she was expecting perhaps Patrick again. He is not currently in therapy.
Once inside, I heard all the news, and Gretchen’s take on it. After 3-1/2 hours I had to leave. When I was going down the steps, I saw Patrick sitting about 20 ft. away. He said “hi”, and I immediately turned around to go back & let Gretchen know he had come back. Patrick started telling me not to “go telling and tattling to them”, “making out that I’m dangerous”. I said nothing. Gretchen came to the door with someone behind her, and told me to come back in, but I had to go, and I told her I just wanted her to know about him being there.
She shut the door & I left, but Patrick escalated his verbal abuse, yelling at me all the way almost to my car just around the corner. He snidely said “Go running to Primal Therapy to ‘cry’ about it”, “All of you are going to Primal Therapy all the time,” in several versions. I didn’t look at him or say anything at all. He called me names repeatedly (“Fat bitch!”) and said cruel things, clearly intending to hurt me, and trying to get me to respond, which I did not do. He yelled at me “You’re falling apart, you’re going to die in 5 years,” and “Why don’t you walk instead of waddle”. He seemed to whip out some of the kinds of insults he’s made at me in the past on the blog, like a schoolyard bully. I never said a thing, but I was kind of looking backward to make sure he wasn’t too close to me to grab or hit me. The last thing he said was, “I don’t want to talk to you, I want to talk to (so-and-so), and other people.”
Later I heard that several people thought they should have called 911 about him, but someone else felt it wouldn’t have done any good. After another 1-1/2 hrs. of group, as people dispersed, someone was escorted away, others hurried away, avoiding him. One guy responded “hi” but would not shake Patrick’s hand, telling him “No, because you’re acting kind of crazy right now”. However, (so-and-so) and a few others were talking to Patrick.
Barry came near the end and was with Gretchen when she left later, which was good, as we were worried.
I was a bit in shock driving home, but at home afterwards, my misery came out, and I connected to a couple of bullying scenes from my childhood. One of my brothers was mean to me, often lying to get me in trouble for things he did, and laughing afterwards when our parents punished me. And once in kindergarten some boys cruelly taunted me that I had done something wrong, and they were going to get me in trouble for it, and when my begging and pleading didn’t help, and I was sobbing, they laughed, and I knew they were lying, and enjoying hurting me. I felt terrible. They were able to do that to me, because of an earlier event, in which my parents terrorized me, threatening my life for something that made no sense to me.
The hurt about my struggles with my weight was the most obvious — I have long been a target for that. I struggle with it every day, with cravings and fears if I don’t eat to push down the tension I feel, that threatens to take over. Inchoate pains. I am ashamed every time I backslide from my resolve, and eat something not good for me, it’s happened times beyond count, and often leaves me in despair of ever succeeding. Still I have to keep trying, to save my life.
But I kept thinking in the back of my mind, “why did Patrick treat me that way?”, as if puzzled, and in talking about it with Gretchen today, I asked her, “He gets something from it?” and she said, “Yes”, and was sympathetic to my feeling victimized and bullied. That was good for me to hear, to try to take it in. It’s like I don’t “get it’, for some reason. I have to think I must have been bullied so much or so young, I lost something of recognizing it. I’m still a child, in some ways. I am doing my best to try and solve this problem, and that is all that keeps me going some days. Meanwhile, as long as I don’t solve my problem, it will continue to hurt me, as I am vulnerable to anyone who wants to hurt me.
Knowing that Patrick was waiting out there for hours for someone felt to me like some intense issues were roiling inside of him, which he hinted at in his first paragraph but didn’t want to explain. The scary thing about Patrick is he often seems not be aware of pent up stuff going on in him and has amply demonstrated he doesn’t handle his pent up stuff well. No one wants to be the object of it, so he’s avoided.
Knowing the kinds of exchanges that have happened between you and Patrick in the past, Vicki, I was afraid for you when you left the building alone, with him still out there, still waiting hours on end for who knew what. I thought you were brave to leave the building alone knowing he was sure to pounce, sure to force his agenda on you, sure to hurt you.
Whatever was going on with you, Patrick, you hurt her and I don’t like that you did. It was predictable that you would. Your issues that you don’t want to talk about blind you to how you hurt people, and you are dismissive of it. You seem unable to not hurt people.
Vicki,I feel sad that you were bullied by Patrick this way, and also outraged. I’mglad you were able to courageously write about it here and tell us how it ties in with yourhistory. I’m really sorry you had to go through this.Phil Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 06:46:22 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Wow, Vicki, that is all so painful, your past, your present struggles, and last Sunday’s horrendous episode.
It takes courage to write all that.
First off Vicki I think it is legitimate you bring this up. I was sort of hoping you wouldn’t as it is ’embarrassing’ but I want to say that at least
I am not going to pretend this is easy for me. There is more than one issue like starting with ‘why’ was I there, what was I trying to achieve etc etc……………I would rather leave that alone for the moment at least. It’s pretty involved and pretty ‘complicated’ and I could ‘explain’ it all and maybe later I will but it does not feel right to do it now at least. Also there is issues about the privacy of other people another big reason I don’t feel able to or think it right to address it now at least.
To try to keep it to you……………..I decided to come back and wait until group was over as on reflection I thought there are several people there who I would like to meet. Even another Irish person that I had not known about but that Gretchen introduced me to before the group. So really it WAS at that point at least as simple as that, now I do realize thinking about it now you could not know that or whatever was in my mind. But it was……………..so I am sitting outside on a chair that just happens to be nearby and you come out of the group by yourself. I FEEL friendly towards you I say “hey Vicki how are you doing?”. You immediately ‘turn on your heel’ as we used to say growing up as a way to say someone not only ‘ignores’ you but makes a kind of public point of doing so. Then I figure out the ‘reason’ you have done that is to go back into the PI to ‘warn’ them that I am out there (my thinking or interpretation of what I see)
This pisses me off quite strongly…………..you make a point of ‘ignoring’ and having no response at all to a friendly greeting as it was and as it was meant but act as I saw it like some ‘cop’ or ‘security guard’. That’s the first thing I say to you as you are climbing back up the steps to the PI. You continue in your ‘cop’ persona Gretchen opens the door and I say things like ‘Gretchen this is so ridiculous, I have a perfect right to be here and I am actually waiting for x and y. (no names privacy but I did tell G.) I almost got the feeling G. thought it was ‘funny’ though I could well be wrong about that. But she seemed to be smiling/laughing at least as I could see and I felt she also thought it was a bit absurd and I mean specifically you playing ‘security guard’.
Anyway maybe I am wrong about that it’s not so important I don’t think but maybe to just explain how my mind was working (or not lol) at that moment I took it as a kind of ‘support’ and kind of ‘unload’ on you. I am very pissed at you your very unfriendly demenour your impersonation of a ‘cop’ and I see you in front of my eyes ‘waddling’ along as best you can I would not call it ‘walking’ though technically it is at least it was getting you to your car. I feel so pissed and yes I have to admit I did call you a ‘fat bitch’ and I think twice or maybe 3 times. Your obvious illl-health combined with all this ‘therapy’ well I just see red. i am mad at what I perceive is the ‘hypocrisy’ of the PI the hypocrisy of the people in it. In one moment in my mind at least it all comes together THIS is what I have be complaining about and trying to ‘explain’ on the blog for so long. And I am pissed not only at you at the PI also who leave situations like this drift on year after year and though I would not say they are in it for the money – they do take your money
It’s a bit ironic but when I ‘considered’ coming back to the PI in 2012 you were the first person I actually met and I don’t need to repeat but I have written about my reaction before when I met you and how shocked I was by your seeming extreme physical enfeeblement. No need to repeat all that but in my kind of ‘raging’ I think here we are over 3 years later and nothing is being done at least the way I see it to ‘help’ you or rectify whatever has and is going wrong. Just show up for ‘retreat’ and ‘sessions’ and ‘groups’ and it’s like is anyone looking or listening or seeing. It feels like a gigantic put up job a conspiracy of silence or take no notice of the man behind the curtain.
OK I don’t want to make this too long and I should probably try to stick to the point. But Vicki I want to mention one other ‘interaction’ you and I had. Not a big deal but it for some reason very much stuck in my mind. After the 2103 retreat the Monday after I was around at your house to visit someone staying with you. I go in you are in the kitchen and I say to go hi Vicki much like last Sunday and you ‘vanish’ out of there so fast you see me coming and boom you are gone. And I’m thinking this is the day after the retreat and that’s how ‘real’ all this shit is. Sit around, talk about ‘growth’ and ‘connection’ and ‘health’ and ‘over coming patterns’ etc etc etc………….but how ‘real’ is any of this like in the actual world it means it seems nothing.
Funnily enough I had a similar experience with Jo. This was after the 2012 retreat and Jo was my ‘buddy’ even………..anyway again the Monday after the retreat I am sitting at Whole Foods with a friend here comes Jo out of the store. I start to introduce my friend to Jo and vica versa and boom she’s gone. She did nothing ‘wrong’ but I’m thinking she could at least have sat down for a minute. After all she was my ‘buddy’ and here I want to introduce her and vica versa to a friend of mine. Not interested, like the ‘unreality’ of the retreat is over now………….back to the everyday world where it means next to nothing (This is kind of what I mean when I say the ‘average’ Irish person has more ‘feeling’ that all these professional ‘feelers’ (primallers)
I am aware all of this could be turned around on me…………maybe I am just ‘radio-active’ with/to primallers…………….and in many ways I am. I don’t like what I see as the ‘un-reality’ of most of formal therapy and I suppose that comes across and they don’t like me either. I can’t say I ‘blame’ them but for myself it does not overly bother me. Even last Sunday I have told people it felt almost like an ‘exorcism’ away from formal therapy……………….though I am still hooked on the blog
I feel I am missing something………….an apology I suppose. You have my apology in that there was a lot of pent up stuff going on for me and you did not deserve the be the object of all that. So I am sorry about that. At the same time I have just tried to explain what is/was going on with me. You can be the judge of how ;legitimate’ all that is.
Patrick, I’m not sure if you want a response, but I have something I want to say. You did only say “Hi” on Sunday (not more than that), and I did feel it was friendly — but I am no longer friendly toward you, and I cannot trust you. I liked you when I first met you as you returned to therapy. But then in groups, and at the retreat you attended, you repeatedly insulted me nastily, it was not simply “expressing feelings”, and you actually expressed repeatedly that you really want me to say nothing at all to you. So I have not felt friendly to you since then, and I do not simply forget when someone is mean and horrible to me. I was not at all comfortable with you coming into my house, to visit someone staying with me, but I had not known about it ahead of time, or I would have prevented it. Already I felt you had been intolerably cruel to me, and I had decided I should have nothing to do with you.
And I don’t believe you care at all about my health, but rather that you have a grudge about something else (the P.I., P.T., your own therapy, and/or your parents), and will simply grab and use any and all objects within reach, to bolster and vent your own anger.
“I was not at all comfortable with you coming into my house, to visit someone staying with me, but I had not known about it ahead of time, or I would have prevented it”
This is exactly the kind of mind set I have a very hard time with. what is so special about your ‘house’ you act like it is the White House or something. You might need Secret Service at the rate you are going. Ridiculous “American” nonsense
> David, Donal’s reply did not come across as talking down to you either.
> and my own ‘welcome’ was only meant, well, to make you feel welcome.
> there used to be a time that all the bloggers would have welcomed any newcomer, a lot of arrogance there then.
>
> too bad you are so defensive, it risks alienating people, speaking for myself it does a bit, feel like having to protect myself..
> even writing this feels risky, but well, hablando se entiende la gente is one spanish saying I like very much.
> meaning talking people understand each other/get along, kind of a double meaning in spanish.
> sorry if you knew this, other people might not, and well, not translating it might be considered arrogant too, see, this is how all the critic affects me already.
>
> i have grown so tired of all those long toes in my life, and the walking on eggshells I try to stay clear of it as much as possible in general.
> M
> wow Vicky..
> I totally agree with Jo
>
> but also without having been bullied as a child, this would be a very unpleasant experience, to say the least.
> i just reread your comment Vicky, and feel well, maybe indignified comes closest.
> angry, incredulous, more angry, how dare you Patrick!!
>
> you should really be so ashamed of yourself, instead of denying what you did by saying ‘but it is all good’, it is not even minimizing, it is pure denial.
>
> true bullying.
>
> I guess I also feel disappointed in some way, how could you??
> this is what turns me off big time, the act out and dumping on people and then denying all responsibility and even assuming a victim role.
>
> the worst part is not wanting to look at the ugly reality of this kind of behavior, just acting out your own frustration by hurting someone else.
>
> vicky, you stood your ground so well really, I am proud of you!
>
> one can lose one’s selfcontrol once, everyone can, but for this repeated habit of bullying, on the blog and now on the street, there is little to no excuse. you are smart enough Patrick, so being dumb is no excuse either, you should get your act togehter, gather some courage and start to honestly work on yourself, dare to do real therapy including be vulnerable or leave people alone and go your own way somewhere else instead of all this craziness.
> it pisses me off big time when people I care about get hurt.
> M
> maybe it is my neurotic need to get through and maybe I should not write this, but I am stunned with the hypocrisy and emotional blindness of your comment, Patrick.
>
> literally I have watched you see go this act with three different people now, insult them repeatedly, and then, as if nothing happened, act like the poor victim when you are not met with a smile and a handshake and use it as a means to give you the right to be hurtful and extremely offensive.
>
> you must not have had a clear conscience in the first place about your intentions of being there, otherwise you would not have felt so angry at Vicky for merely going back to tell people you were still there.
> what is the big deal if you feel at ease about your motives?
>
> you seem to set up the same thing over and over, act like a bully to people and then put yourself in the role of the innocent victim merely filled with righteous indignation of not being treated correctly and decently, at the same time including the PI as bad guys.
>
> pretty crazy if you ask me, which of course you don’t.
>
> you are the one setting it all up, noone else to blame here.
> M
David,
First of all, I don’t think it’s really possible to gauge tone on here……I am taken aback by your reaction, and by your description of me as haughty and arrogant,….way too strong for someone who has never met me!
Anyway, I was not trying to explain anything to anyone or lecture about primal on here. Your posts just made me realize some things about therapy, and I was just freely in writing these down.on the blog. I never thought that you or anyone else was unaware of these things, The blog is helpful as it makes me aware of aspects of the therapy, and discussing them on here helps me use it as a tool in my life
Try to remember that just because someone discusses or states something does n’t acutally mean they are lecturing……it’s just a normal part of discussion,
To address one of your other questions: frankly, your use of the term “primalling” seems dated. A person can primal for decades, but I do not think that is what gets us better. In fact the term can imply solitary feeling which, even though it has it’s place, is a dated concept. In fact, I do not think if things in terms of “primalling” or “having a primal” or being “cured” i see the therapy is a tool to get to old feelings and resolve them in the context of leading as full a life as possible, given a person’s pain. A lot of it has to do with the relationships a person has both in and out of therapy. That’s why retreats work so very well for anyone I know who has gone to them.
I think the length of time I have been doing this is completely irrelevant and we are all at different stages when we arrive, and have different issues to begin with, so there are a lot of variables.
Donal.
Margaret, this page is about feelings ?? The language triggered a feeling in me. Feelings are best expressed as felt not edited. I think I shall shove off. You all have the rules established of what is appropriate and a comfort level. Only they change.
I tried to qualify my response; your manner of expression triggered feelings in me. To me it is preachy. It would been no help to that process if I explain them away. I’m sure you are a wonderful person. So I have a feeling and then get admonished, rude, etc., etc. That doesn’t coach feeling comfortable with being vulnerable.
A few days ago a patient tried to convert me to religion, his version, christianity. He’s an emotionally volatile fellow with not a lot going for him. I gently but unequivocally said that I was not convertible. But I left him with his defences and dignity intact. It was not appropriate for me to tell him that his take on life and religion was wrong or dated.
So I don’t know you and my comments are untoward; and you receive supportive comments. You tell me my take on Primal is dated, but you don’t know me. And I bet that will be sanctioned.
.
Patrick,
I hope you are doing ok.
I had to ask about the phrase you used in your last post “Ridiculous “American” Nonsense”. Would you care to elaborate? I ask out of curiousity. Also, why is the word American in quotes?
Donal.
Thanks Donal. Oh I dunno I probably should not have said anything……………..it just struck me like “american” just a kind of posturing about ‘my house’ BFD!……………..I remember it as a heavily fortified (metal protection everywhere somewhere in the ‘hood’ but there is this kind of propriety tone of a ‘property owner’………….and the same ‘security guard’ or ‘cop’ kind of attitude. And that is “american” in that we have millions of prisoners and we have military and weapons everywhere………………….let’s just say “american” is not a compliment…………….
Hi folks, Sandy here.
Not new to therapy, but new to the blog. This feels awkward to be in this cyber space, but since I don’t live near the Primal community anymore I need to get out of my comfort zone to reach out to Primal people more regularly. I’m especially aware of that now, after having been to the retreat earlier this month.
Hi to “retreaters” Jo, Larry, Leslie, Phil and Vicki. It was absolutely wonderful to see you guys at the retreat.
I’ve visited this blog many times but backed out on trying to introduce myself and start joining-in…there are many good writers here, which I find intimidating. But mostly, I stayed away because I was discouraged by some of the content. However, recently some dialogue started about the blog content; and I feel more encouraged. Hopefully I can contribute some content of value.
Vicki, the stalker episode… When I saw him skulking along the wall that day before group I almost took a photo because that person looked criminally suspicious and might need to be identified at some point. But when I learned who it was, it all made sense. His antics that day triggered many feelings in me, but lucky for me I was in a safe place to address them – inside the institute. I feel so bad for you that you had face such abusive behavior out on the street, alone!
Hi Sandy,Welcome to the blog!
It’s great to see you here and it was a pleasure to meet you at the retreat.Phil
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 01:05:47 +0000
To: phiban@msn.com
Hi Phil, Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to hearing what you have to say here.
The Amen Corner………………..piling on. It’s so nice to have the ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ makes people feel ok and ‘belong’ for a while……………………retreaters and repeaters/watch your parking meters/jump down an alleyway/the pump don’t work/the vandals took the handle………………..apologies to Bob Dylan
I notice the punctuation marks in your typing, Sandy. Do you live in a French community ?? I live in Nova Scotia.
No Dave, frayed knot 🙂
I live in an English community.
Oh, I was making a deductive leap based on the Multilingual punctuation in your typing. ha Given two choices I always have at least a 100% chance of being wrong. ha. ( I resist lol’s, ha; I instinctively thought it meant, ” Lots of love.”) Are you Canadian ??
Hi Sandy! So good to have just seen you and to see you here!!
Welcome.
ox L.
Ditto what Leslie said, Sandy. I hope you are able to find some of what you need here, and keep coming back.
Thanks Larry, I hope I can contribute something of value other than greetings and cute comments. But for the moment I’m pretty nervous about putting all this stuff out on the internet.
Thanks to you Leslie and your step by step explanation about how to post comments. I truly am cyber challenged.
Have never had a comment like this before! You don’t mind if I show my kids and perhaps frame it do you ? 🙂
Vicki,
I just read your account of what happened when you left group: what a horrible experience. I can empathize fully with the feelings of being hurt and bullied. Though I have never experienced something like this in a long time, I am intimidated easily and that fear does affect my life in a big way. It is painful to think of how much I was picked on at school up to the age of 14-15. Reading your post made me realize how deeply this has affected me.
I really hope that you will be ok, though I am sure you are still shaken. It seems that you are getting good support from Gretchen and others, which is touching,
Donal
Donal, if you want to, say more about, “It is painful to think of how much I was picked on at school up to the age of 14-15.”
David,
I saw your response to Margaret above. I would encourage you not to “shove off” as you put it, but to keep interacting on here, There are no rules. Margaret and Jo were simply giving you feedback on how you reacted to my comments and what they thought, Nobody was trying to deny you feeling. In fact, if this reaction you into a feeling you can feel, well and good. In my experience, though, when I have reacted to someone based on misunderstanding how that person was talking to me, I had to delve deeper to get to feeling. Part of that delving is getting the perspectives of other people on what is going on.
Just my two cents……….
Donal
Part of growth through therapy is developing a sense of from whom you accept commentary. Victims of bullying are prone to accepting unworthy criticism.
I haven’t seen anyone give you any criticism yet, David. Like Donal said, getting a clearer perspective on present reality helps clarify that earlier feelings are colouring the present, useful if you want to get in touch with and open to those earlier feelings. All I’ve seen so far is people trying to help you. I was very surprised by the wrong impression you quickly and easily came to about Donal. That tells me you suffered a lot of abuse in your life and harbour a lot of unresolved feelings about it, easily triggered by the slightest incident in the present.
Like you, I had to test the waters when i first came on the blog. There are no rules, but for many of us doing the therapy, there is a striving to become aware of and dismantle the act out of the feeling, to stop the struggles and connect to the pain….very hard to do. I argued a lot with Jack back then, not in a hateful way but in fear and frustration trying to figure out how he ticks and understand him, and in the process triggered some primals in me. Eventually we understood each other and I care about the guy. What I found out is there is a lot of empathy on the blog, while some others, sadly, are barely capable of it. It’s also clear to me that actively doing the therapy engenders capacity for empathy that I rarely see in my non-primal world but I know it’s out there.
I feel safe in saying that most of us on the blog are still transitioning from the cold hearted outside world that we grew up in, to the empathetic primal world. We are still learning, each in our own way and at our own pace. There are no rules, but there are ways of behaviour that help stop the defense and get to the pain, which is what most of us here try to achieve.
I’m having trouble sleeping tonight, oddly enough. Nice to talk to you at this late hour and give my racing brain something else to do. I think I’m ready to give the pillow another try now.
David,
I saw your response to me above after I made my last post, To be honest, I could not follow the post entirely, and it took me a minute to realize you were responding to me (you did not address me). Anyway……….
I do not know what your take on primal is as a whole, and was not commenting on that. In fact, you are a trained professional(I am not), so I assumed you were far more knowledgeable that in this area.
You asked me how long I had being primalling for the record. That specific question is one that people at the Institute do not really ask anymore. Furthermore, it seems like a narrow question: a lot of people out there may regard what they are doing as “primalling”, but they are not involved in anything as rich as therapy as it id done as the Institute. I am not saying that you are one of those people.
Also, I did not like the fact that you were trying to assess me based on how long I had been “primalling” which, to some degree you were otherwise you would not have posed the question this way.
Donal.
David,
To clarify my last post: I assume that you are far more knowledgeable than I in this are, as you are in the profession and I am not. In my haste, I did not write this correctly above.
Donal.
I consider myself as simply a novice on the road to self discovery, certainly not superior nor an authority in any way. My questions to you were just out of a getting to know you a bit. I was struggling to explain that I find it a disadvantage not knowing the participants. My status in my family as a child was that I was always wrong, ganged up against, no safety.. And I am still influenced by that to varying degrees. Being bullied outside the home was one more extension. My reaction was not against you personally. I do not know you. Janov, more eloquent than I, once equated the experience of the neurotic to dragging a stocking through a bag of lint. The bits that stick trigger me. I completely understand that it may not be the intention of the other to be any certain way. Simply my perception. But the process of the therapy I thought was to let it all hang out. To then be told I am wrong is counterproductive to my learning to stand up for myself if I again become the victim. At the same time it is helpful to push the feeling. If it was resolved I wouldn’t be sensitive to it. I know, too, that I have gone into my head about this and that makes the words come out as crap. So I’ll end for now.and feel.
David, I don’t think your “words come out as crap”. They somehow make things clearer. And they have a sadness to them. All regardless of you needing to “end now and feel.”
Thanks for your comments, Larry, Jo, Sandy, Phil, and Donal. Whenever I write, even though I feel it was good, I still have fears I won’t be believed somehow, so it matters to me to hear from others what they saw or felt. I guess that comes from when my brother lied, and there was nothing I could do, that would make my parents believe me — they were just clueless, and chose to believe I must be to blame, and I got hit and whatever, for things I didn’t do. That brother only finally owned up to it and apologized for making my life hell as a child, when he was going through his AA 12-step program over 20 yrs. ago, which stunned me to tears at the time. Even still, I felt I needed to remain cautious of trusting him, because of his past habit of lying, I wasn’t sure how genuine his apology was. But he has made good use of his “therapy”, and been more honest about things ever since.
Hi Vicki,
Hearing you talk of your brother and parents stirs up memories about my family. I also had a brother who pulled similar tricks, and parents who were clueless and believed him. Since he was older he could put together a more compelling story (lie) against my attempts to defend myself to my parents so I was the one who caught hell. And just like you, to this day I still expect to be dis-believed when I defend myself or tell my side. This gives me a lot to think about.
I realize I am cutting in on a directed communication. But it suddenly came up in me how I felt I had to cut myself off from relatives, and some friends who constantly were canonizing my deceptive, manipulative, abusive brother, and relatives who were constantly comparing me to him unfavourably to my face.
And as in childhood I feel I can’t defend myself or I’ll be in trouble.
Huh, an old ache in my gut started, writing about it.
It was so good to see your post on July 13 Leslie. When I read it I felt yes!… I hope more people need the blog who want to use it as a sort of virtual primal group, where we can go to with troubling personal issues and feelings and find help from each other in dealing with them, please, please, please. It was so nice to subsequently hear from others who haven’t written here in a long time…Donal, Vicki, Jo, and now brave newcomer Sandy. Nice to see stalwarts hanging in there, Margaret and Phil, who I feel I can explore feelings with. Seeing you here I don’t feel nearly so alone.
The retreat ended on Friday, but I stayed in LA for a week beyond that, with the specific and therapeutic intent of having to make myself reach out and connect with friends, at the risk that they might not want to or might be busy and I would be all alone. My biggest lesson from the retreat and my subsequent stay in LA was that the more I can I let my walls down and enjoy friends, the more I find that I matter to them, just as they matter to me. The revelation hurts deeply, because good feeling, meaningful rapport makes the neglect and aloneness in childhood and my early life become strikingly, painfully clear to the core of my soul.
I landed back a home yesterday afternoon, sad to be away from the rich companionship of feeling, sensitive people, troubled by the heavy burden ahead of me to try to fill my life here in a richer, more meaningful way.
God it’s awful to be back in the land of the post-retreat, the non-primal. I feel soooo empty and alone now back home. I feel a strong, healthy need to strike up more frequent, regular contact with my primal friends (please move here). You really are special people.
I’m sure there are some non-primal people out there who would be as rich and rewarding to know. The lesson I’ve learned is to keep trying to find them, to break the pattern of giving up because as a little child there was no one for me.
I remember returning home form LA , buoyed, feeling so up to the task of getting on with it. And then the terror hit. I was taking in the wash, my daughter’s skirts and dresses and I fell into a pool of drool on the deck, I didn’t know how to iron them, I’d never make it. Into my soundproof primal room, set the timer because I didn’t want to compromise my kids lives with my pain. I phoned some primal friends but they were pissed that I had,” walked out on them ,” and I wasn’t welcome anymore. Talk about lonely. And an extra recurrent theme to feel on, only being valuable to friendships when I could be leaned on for support.
That sounds so bleak. Without some good friends, to me life doesn’t feel worth much.
I listed some names in my earlier comment this evening. It isn’t meant to be an exhaustive list, but there is another I wanted to add. Jack, whether you know it or not, my interactions with you on the blog when it was a more caring place helped me to some feelings, because, I discovered, you are basically a decent, caring fellow, though often misguided and even, as you’ve said, downright bad.
Larry – I really don’t ‘get’ this kind of strong distinction between so called ‘feeling’ people and non feeling people. I say ‘so called’ in a very real sense.at least so it seems to me
Also I find it odd a lot of people say how ‘depleted’ they feel or whatever when they go back home now they miss the companionship and so on……………..I could see that but it does not seem particularly ‘healthy’ to me. I know I came back from my Cruise feeling energized and strong and the feeling I had a lot to do and work on. I also made a few good friends who I have a very good ‘writing’ relationship with now.
Several people here report kind of living from one retreat to the next to me to repeat that does not seem particularly ‘healthy’ It seems a weak kind of depleted life that needs the ‘charge’ of get together s like retreats. Again kind of the opposite of Janov’s original ‘promise’ but the way I see most all of it is the ‘opposite’ now including cutting people off and ‘moving on’ or trying to………………….truly ‘feeling’ people would not be like that……………
Thanks for saying how you see it, Patrick It seems that you are unable to comprehend or let yourself experience the therapy or the retreats, so there is no way I can share the experience with you and there is nothing more I can say to you about it. You will I guess remain an outsider looking in and observing, but never risking joining to find out what it really is about.
From my perspective, the retreats are the most unique personal growth opportunity out there and I feel very very lucky to be able to attend and participate in such a rare, precious experience that dramatically, profoundly helps transform my life towards a richer, deeper, more meaningful one. I’ve grown through what I’ve experienced at them, and my people here at home see the growth in me. I’m very grateful for the retreats and the change they’ve accelerated in me.
Larry: “I landed back a home yesterday afternoon, sad to be away from the rich companionship of feeling, sensitive people, troubled by the heavy burden ahead”.
I was wondering Larry after reading this comment of yours, if, on retiring in the near future (as I understand) you might consider moving to live here in LA. I do understand that there could be many hurdles, like health care, residency (green) cards, money transfers, finding somewhere to live, and giving up all that you posses there in Canada.
The upside would be to be nearer people you have good feelings for, the Institute and the chance to buddy on a face to face basis. Just a thought.
Your other comment about me be “caring” and was nice to read … and yes, there is that very UGLY side of me.
Jack
Vicki,
I am absolutely horrified with what Patrick said and did to you! It is unbelievable to me that there continues to be someone so sick and twisted still here. I feel so badly for you having to endure Patrick’s rants and the hurt from his verbal assaults. You wrote so well Vicki – stating the facts that need to be seen.
Patrick – your long winded explanations do nothing but expose the cruel person you are. The distractions about Vicki’s home make no sense. Feeling safe in one’s home is a good thing. Invading that space when you have only hurled insults at that person is not something a conscious person would do.
Justifying all your bullying illuminates how far you are from emotional healthiness Patrick.
I really wish you would get the help you desperately need away from here!
The Amen Corner is quite large for a while at least. About Vicki’s ‘home’ that was 2 years ago there was no question about ‘ hurdled insults’ at the time though I think at that retreat I made it clear than I didn’t see the point of Vicki in group sitting on a high chair ‘refereeing’ the proceedings (too difficult for her to get up and down on the floor it seems ‘ the very picture of ‘health’ I guess I was supposed to say or at least NOT say what is staring me in the face)
Leslie behind your ‘lovey dovey’ persona I see an unforgiving and in-flexible person your ‘disdain’ for me is consistent and strong. You are especially ‘strong’ in that you want me away from here so you and your ‘friends’ could all be so lovey dovey and ‘supportive’ to each other. Well I will go when I feel it is the right time to go not on your ‘schedule’……………..for some reason I feel I have more to ‘do’ here……………something is not quite finished for me yet but I agree it will be nice not only for you but for me also when that day comes. As for ‘primal’ and all the rest of it something tells me there are still some shoes that have to drop. This ‘therapy’ or this place here is no more yours than mine and you can spare your little lectures about me ‘getting the help I need’. I told you before I could see you dressed up in a white coat dispensing ‘meds’ or maybe injecting vaccines or something…………….doing what YOU think is good for them but not anything that’s good for them at all certainly your ‘advice’ to me falls on very dear ears.
You as I say seem especially ‘strong’ on that you just want me ‘gone’……………….a very prevalent ‘primal’ value it seems when things are not going to your/their liking……………..this whole mess is a result of that kind of ‘attitude’………………throw away world, dumpsters filled with thrash world disposable world well there is one creature (me) here who can at least say they don’t agree with that even if it is what is happening. The world is dying but at least somebody actually notices…………………and for the moment at least can say they don’t ‘agree’ with it………….
correction ‘dear ears’ should have been ‘deaf ears’…………….
Leslie, thanks — you’re probably more horrified than I can be, because I was half expecting it, although hoping for better. But I also understand how the warped thinking of insane anger feels, when I just feel like I want to tear someone to pieces, as in road-rage. Fortunately, I don’t act that out, but I do feel it, and it’s frightening to be that crazy-angry.
And some years back I was having anger triggered chronically by a couple of people in group, and I tried to say what was bugging me, to them — over and over. It was never completely clear to me what exactly they were doing, that made me nuts, it’s mostly just a very strong feeling that I can’t put my finger on. Every time I felt that way, I felt like I had to try and say it to them, hoping to learn what it was more deeply about. Finally, Gretchen told me I was abusing them, and that I had to stop it. So, painfully, I did. I continued having the feelings, just not ranting at the people in question. I have those feelings on my own, and sometimes talk about the meaning, in group. I have long known that the anger connects to very early feelings, of being flattened, whacked or clobbered, especially on the left side of my head — there is some physical connection I often feel.
So I do feel like I have some idea of how stuck Patrick is, although I know he feels differently about it. Stuck and painful and yes, crazy. Those words can sometimes apply to me too, but I am not abusing people right and left on a daily basis, like Patrick does, and which he seems to feel proud of doing, as if he needs to defend his life against intolerable threat.
David,
Not to beat a dead horse here…..nobody is saying you are doing something wrong, except. But, when you start applying adjectives like haughty, arrogant and preachy to another person on here that you don’t know, don’t be too surprised when they defend themselves.
Donal
Speaking of the “Amen Corner” they were a cool group. I loved this song at the time………………also the video of those birds diving that’s the way it was at Venice beach just few years ago………………..not anymore the world it seems is dying all our ‘growth experiences’ etc notwithstanding………………………
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
Long as you love me, it’s all right
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
You got the power to turn on the light
Everybody tells me I’m wrong, to want you so badly
But there’s a force driving me on, I’ll follow it gladly
So let them laugh, I don’t care-are
All I want is you by my si… Ide
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
Long as you love me, it’s all right
Bend me, shape me anyway you want me
But you got the power to turn on the light
Everybody tells me I’m wrong, to want you so badly
But there’s a force driving me on, I’ll follow it gladly
So let them laugh, I don’t care-are
All I want is you by my si… Ide
Bend me, shape me, anyway you want me
Long as you love me, it’s all right
> Hi Sandy,
> soooo nice to hear you here!!!
> a warm e-hug to you before I continue reading the rest of this morning’s 21 comments, Margaret
Hugs back at you Margaret. I hope you are well.
> David,
> I feel there is some miscommunication going on here.
> you are not blamed for feeling something or even for expressing it. it is merely something I and many others had to learn at some point, the ‘hard’ way as like what is happening here.
>
> as Jack would refer to it, it is much more productive to try to own the feeling as to put the blame in the other camp, specially in case of reasonable doubt.
>
> like if you would have said to me for example, the way you welcomed me makes me feel bad as it reminds me of so and so, and I feel patronized or whatever, I could just easily respond with I am sorry that is how it made you feel, it was not my intention, and there would be no controversy,, while still you said what you needed to say and if necessary I could search in my heart if really there is truth in what you said.
> but immediately blaming and accusing the other person of being arrogant or something, usually does not work out well and tends to close the communication instead of opening it up.
>
> the only goal in therapy is not expressing ourselves, imo, but commnicating with each other as welll in what then mostly turns out to be constructive for both parties.
>
> but well, sorry if this might feel like explaining to you, I really want to help you to feel at ease here, we all started off at some point not knowing anybody.
>
> no intention at all to make you feel bad.
> M
Margaret: I would like to expand on the statement you made about my reference to anger. Anger is very tricky to deal with for several reasons as I have experienced it. There is a tendency, and this happens frequently in my relationship with Jim to this very day, that the anger spirals out of control. Meaning; that Jim gets angry with me and I respond angrily to his anger which then precipitates and even greater anger from Jim. I discovered from my therapy that I need to prevent the spiraling effect. So I learned to get away from Jim and have my anger privately (usually into my pillow or by getting in my car and driving off to some side street). I learned to start off by saying such things as “What you said, or did, pissed me off” Then explode into all the expletives I could think of, and sometimes thumping something soft without hurting my hand
What that did for me over a course of time was to end before I got into the “blame game” as I call it. The insights that came out of it for me was to “OWN” the anger. In other words to know that MY anger belonged to me and not to Jim … even though he precipitated it. What I now prefer to call “he was merely the catalyst”. This was an enormous learning process for me and helped me in many angry feelings and situations.
Looking back on it all I see very often with others and groups and in particular with governments. this spiraling effect, often leading to war: with groups; to fights and can in some instances lead to murder.
In short I see the “blame game” as the act-out. Taking ownership of my feelings is the only way, least-ways for me. for any resolution. For me, one of many great lessons of therapy.
If anyone wishes to take my up on any of this I will be willing to get into a dialog about it, and hopefully explain it all in terms of MY FEELINGS. That’s all in the end, I have.
Jack
I encountered two days ago a Buddhist monk that claimed he had found the secret to “happiness”. He stated that being caring of others was what brought about ‘real’ happiness. Least-ways that was how I read the post.
It was my immediate feeling that he he had the whole thing up-side-down. I contend (in all my arrogance) that a fully-feeling-full person is naturally caring of others … for the most part. Once one is fully-feeling-full then happiness will rear it’s “ugly’ head from time to time 🙂 … along with all the other feelings that are a part of being alive.
I do confess that this comment of mine, may well be a good example of what Larry stated was my “misguided” self. Ah well !!!!, I felt the need to comment on it anyway.
Jack
Patrick,
In the following post, I am not being rhetorical: I am genuinely curious as to why you expend so much energy here. Let me explain,
Your comments regarding people living retreat-to-retreat and feeling deflated when returning to their live as after a retreat have some validity. Retreats offer a lot of hope for many of us, and people can get ahead a few furlongs at a retreat, making progress that would take much longer in therapy back in LA.
Some people are more dependent on the therapy than others depending on their lives, so perhaps have more vested in it in the short term. Also, some people may not have as much to go back to as others……some compassion might be appropriate here,
Personally, though I do have a good life to go back to, I have found that ordinary work/social life can be a let down after 7 days us a Casa Marisa. Actually, I feel safe up there and start feeling apprehension the last couple of days in returning back to LA.
So, though you do have points, I have to wonder how much you use these points to validate your obviously strong bias against therapy? The other question is why do you bother going next to near anything or anyone involved in the Institute of you have such contempt for it? You scoff at those of us who rely on the hope that therapy offers??? Why waste all that time and energy railing against something you have no belief in at all……does n’t make sense…..don’t you have other things you want to do with your life. The Dr. Cruz cruise is something you seem to get a lot out of, in contrast to primal which you dismiss as ineffective. L.et’s face it, none of us have can afford to piss away time: none of us will see more than 100 years pr so, and that’s the best case scenario.
The other thing is do you even like anyone here??..maybe you do, but it is questionable based on what I have read.
I am sure you have been asked these questions many times on here. However, I want to ask you directly. These are open questions.
Donal
Not a problem Donal in me experience you have always been truthful and genuine with me not at all ‘rhetorical’
It’s strange – to day I spent a very nice day with two guys (English) who were at the retreat. It all felt fine I didn’t really feel any ‘difference’ with them. I imagine or hope they felt the same way. So what’s all the fuss about?
I don’t want to start any other ‘wars’ about all this. Maybe and I \talked to them about this think of this Luther thing I have talked about from time to time. Maybe you were not reading but basically that’s the best short hand image I can come up with now. Luther was a ‘believer’ he never it seemed for a moment doubted the truth of his ‘religion’ but he did have major differences with the Pope, a lot of the practices of the Church like ‘indulgences’ he did not think Confession was a good thing and really stripped away most all of the structures and stuff that had kind of grown up over time.
This might seem ‘grandiose’ and maybe it is but for me today it seems to be enough. Maybe one day I will pin my ‘objections’ or whatever to the door of the PI and Janov’s centre.lol. I say ‘pin’ not ‘nail’ as I don’t want to have a damage claim! I think a lot of my unhappiness and disgruntlement is actually from being too much a ‘believer’ so that is ironic too. Anyway thanks for asking Donal it is nice to be asked in a respectful and serious way.
Also I noticed you were the only one who asked me how I was doing in relation to this latest snafu. You expressed support and empathy for Vicki which is fine of course but at the same time did not pile on me.I appreciate that as most all of the ‘tabloids’ were/are giving me kind of dreadful headlines. Shock! Horror! Appall! etc etc. Makes me feel a bit like Putin……………but that is the kind of company I am glad to be in. Lots of ‘propaganda’ in the Western world now…………….it seems almost to be a ‘way of life’ Can people even ‘think’ that well anymore………………..
Larry,
I hope you are doing OK back home: post-retreat can be an adjustment. The intense connecting with people followed by the more superficial daily interaction is a bit of s shock. AS I alluded to in my post to Patrick, I feel cocooned at retreats. I only notice it on the second last day when it is time to think about leaving. I sometimes think of the empty retreat center right after we leave. For all it’s beauty, the place is only really meaningful when primal people are there. Sorry we only chatted briefly the other day, but I will try calling you soon.
Donal
I’m functioning OK Donal. After landing back at home on Saturday, today was my first day back at work. The people are nice and the work is an interesting enough diversion, but after the retreat I hunger for far more meaningful connection and it’s not out there in my daily routine. I talked to a primal friend last night and the natural, easy, fun, empathetic connection helped my spirit soar for much of today from my sad depths of aloneness, like water to a flower, like catnip to a cat, like a bow to a violin.
There is the familiar crying of feelings, and then there is the crying of feelings that goes deeper and broader than anything I’ve felt before. One of the latter happened to me while I was in LA after the retreat, at my friend’s home. While in the feeling I descended into the dank pit of my childhood and with more open eyes took in much more of the horrible black emptiness. I could let myself feel and cry the agony down there only because I knew that when I got back up on the surface I had primal friends and the empty agony no longer need be part of my life, but can be put to rest down in the pit that was.
I’m going to need primal friends to help me through this, Your offer of a phone call is welcome and timely. Perhaps we could text to plan a time to phone.
At this moment early this evening I’m hurting from emptiness, but too tired from not enough sleep last night to let up feelings, so I’m off early to bed. I suspect that until at some point I’m able to cry out the hurting that is seeping out of me now, I’ll be miserable in the days ahead, suffering from post-retreat blahs (ie. suffering from eyes wide open look at my life and my need to make it a lot better).
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