Just following directions and pasted new page address in my browser.One of the thumbnails at the head of this page reads, ” The Stupidist People All in One Gallery.” LOL Another is a sweet sleeping baby cuddled with a sleeping Pug.
Leslie, I wrote a response to your comment on Page 2 dated “July 19, 2015 at 10:37 pm” regarding Patrick’s long response self-justifying and explaining why he behaved as he did Sunday July 12, although he did reluctantly offer some apology, which I accept is better than none. My new comment, dated “July 20, 2015 at 8:11 pm” would have been well out-of-context on this new page. But I didn’t want you to miss it.
Leslie I wonder what is ‘never ending’ about it?…………this ‘debacle’ happened on Sunday July 19th and you are writing on Monday July 20th. So it’s a day! I guess I understand for you Leslie a day where we are not ‘supporting’ each other and sending each other little cutsie message and ‘assuring’ ourselves how we are all still here and how ‘wonderful’ we all are is a long time……………..your time frame would not be mine, people all over the place have to suffer things sometimes for years and years and they do, Vicki’s ‘debacle’ in the big picture I don’t think is so ‘awful’ or ‘horrendous’ and it certainly is not ‘never ending’ it seems to be over already and it has gone on for all of a day…………..for some reason I think of a mother who has a child with life long problems from for example vaccines could quality as a ‘never ending debacle’ but sorry to intrude I am sure you have someone else you need to ‘complement’ and say how ‘wonderful’ they are and how great all we the ‘elect’ are doing………………unreal world……………
I guess I missed a week there somewhere but I was counting Vicki’s ‘debacle’ from when she started talking about it. But correction then it was a week and a day…………
Here is something Dr Kruse wrote about living is LA (specifically LA)…………….he was not talking to me or about me (though maybe he had me in the back of his mind lol)
“The world around you (Los Angeles) as a minefield of electromagnetic, chemical, and blue light smog and an assault on your senses, and you still can’t observe it but your mitochondria do. I’m sure that it literally steals joy as it shreds DHA, cellular hydration, and circadian timing. No wonder so many people in that city are so bad tempered.”
Maybe Jack Kruse was talking directly to you telling you to get the fuck outta the place … since I get the feeling you are the one emitting a bad temper.
Sadly, for you, it seems never ending. Me thinks however, it has a history 😦 .
> Patrick, maybe you should look up the meaning of the word debacle before you go off on one of your rants and completely miss the point.
> your mitochondria must be shortcircuiting quite a lot lately, imho.
>
> and you never answered my or Donals question in a direct way, just more evasion and smokescreens.
> M
> p.s. I am not sure even I would use the word debacle in this case. it is an ongoing battle and I know from my own experience how hard it is to end a deepply rooted longterm addictive kind of defense. in the meantime other big progresses can be made.
>
> it is also hard to do real physical exercise when having injuries at crucial joints from car or sports accidents, again I know from my own experience.
>
> i understand what you meant to say though Leslie, I guess I am still simply very indignified by how Patrick treats a person for which I have a lot of respect and admiration.
>
> I have shared house with each one of them so I can say I know both of them a bit.
>
> Patrick would have discarded me for my disability, he once admitted, if he had not gotten to know me better living with me.
>
> for me all persons are worthwhile, but that does not mean their behaviour does not affect my respect for them at a given moment.
>
> and well, at the moment, and I know Patrick you probablly don’t give a shit, but right now imo you are really off track and even proud of it.
>
> I feel actually bad about it, as you have great potential but seem to prefer to remain in your shell of contempt and dismissiveness. a very isolated place to be, but your own choice.
>
> sad really,, but you will probably ridicule me saying so. so be it.
> M
” Patrick would have discarded me for my disability, he once admitted, if he had not gotten to know me better living with me”
Margaret – I have to take you up on that point………….this is really bullshit. You are way over the top with that and wrong. And ‘lying’…………….what the hell are you trying to say/do with that. Total rubbish
For you yes it seems it also seems since maybe you have to “behave” yourself a bit now you are even more cranky and hateful than usual for all the pr you do here> does not “fool” me for a minute>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
” Fox???” Bre’r Fox, Reynard… ??? I like the line, “… like leaving the fix in charge of the hen house…” We never have a problem with foxes in our hen house, only minks and weasels. lol
Now that’s a bird to fear…. Once while making a house call, my patient was not home and her Austrian gander kept me prisoner in the back porch for several hours until her return. There was a hockey stick in the porch I naively thought I could use to shoo him away after I saw , Repeating, ” Nice goosey,,” having proven a failed strategy. Well, with one mighty swoop of the fore part of his wing, and the hockey stick handle snapped in two. Not wanting that fate for my shin bones, I cowered in the porch.
Oh, I forgot, we do have 5 geese, but they are those all noise, hide behind hens, no action, cowardly inbred white geese, boo, and they scatter.. Great for clearing up dung larvae though. The farm so reflects the cycle of life, from dung to dung…ha
> haha, is that the sound American roosters make??
> in France they say cocorico and in Flemish kukeleku!
>
> and no fox really, just one more very crazy chicken, maybe it picked up some weird mushroom or well, a bad bug?
> M
Are the ‘positives’ with the fucked up micro-biome on the loose/ Margaret you are a fucking liar…………..I was only good to you when you were there, I took you shopping many many times, I drove you to group. I was nice to you as you were to me
I think you need to ‘explain’ what you meant by that comment about what I said. And NO cocoroo or whatever the fuck ‘evasions’ you are doing now is NOT good enough. Repeat NOT good enough………………so get off your little cutesy little bullshit and EXPLAIN yourself. Tell us/me the context what we were talking about what you think I meant at the time etc etc etc. ……………you never mentioned this before or at the time of course at the time would be hard since it didn’t happen LOL but going along with your ‘story’ how did you feel when I ‘said’ that LOL I know there is lot of ‘group think’ here and you feel safe I suppose to slander me but keep in mind I know what’s right at least for myself and all your lying and crap and you might get agreement from PR man I am sure you will……………..does not make ANY of it ‘true’. You are so mad at me it seems because really if you think about I showed you how you fucked up your cat totally……………NOT deliberatly but you DID and you probably WILL again……………..such is the price of a closed mind. Not the only price but one of them…………
> excuse me Patrick, but I am not lying.
> you told me so yourself, in a conversation we had in the living room.
> we were talking actually about the tendency to dismiss and label people upon a first impression of stereotypic ‘negative’ qualities like in my case being visually disabled, or in vicky’s case having a bad knee, or well, it is pretty clear here you often use Jack’s age or sexual preference to try to insult him, need I say more?
>
> so to prove my point in our conversation, which was a calm and nice one, I asked you straightforwardly if you would have regarded me when you got to know me merely from a distance at the retreat, instead of sharing a house with me as well, as just another primal loser just for looking ‘weak’ in your terms, being blind, and you said you probably would have done so indeed.
> so whatever you say, my memory is pretty good, and I do not actually hold it against you as at that moment it was fine,as you admitted then it would have been wrong as you added I clearly did not match the way you would have classified me without getting to know me better.
>
> that is why I feel so disappointed about your way of treating Vicky, who actually is a fine person and very sharp in many ways, honest to the core and with loads of empathy combined with a great capacity to speak her mind.
>
> the way you adressed her is so demeaning, and I do not mean for her, but for you. I wish you’d snap out of it, I really think you know better and don’t get why you prefer to stay in that mindset.
>
> but well, some things are a burdeon of the past, some things are out of our control, and some things are really a matter of choice still. it is a free world, and as I am a hopeless optimistic I can’t help but keep hoping you will find how to let your better side prevail, I know it is there, and I truely regret you are stuck in all that bitterness and anger and hostility.
>
> you think we are all against you, but that is basically not true.
>
> you set yourself up and create this situation over and again, for reasons only you can unravel.
>
> hope you do in a nearby future, life is too precious to waste.
> M
> Patrick, please slow down and take a deep breath.
>
> you know my comments get pasted on the blog for me so there is a delay between me reading the comments and my reply appearing, that has been the case for years and years and I have repeatedly explained it.
>
> the cocorico was written earlier on and had nothing whatsoever to do with ignoring you.
>
> the friendly explanation I wrote about what I said was written before that last rant at me, calling me again, what I forgot, something like a dirty lyer, but in worse terms.
>
> do you see now your rage and insults tend to carry you away and make you lose touch with reality?
>
> do you see in what I wrote I did not bring it up to slap your face with it, but as an example of how back then you noticed how your jumping to conclusions about people can definitely be wrong and how back then you actually sounded like you wanted that to change, which for me was a very good thing.
>
> my bottom line all the time is you let yourqualities to be overruled by your anger, which is a true shame, as indeed I have experience of many of your good sides.
>
> so do you see now your lashing out at me and calling me names in that last comment was maybe somewhat precocious and coloured by your well, hesitate to use the word, feelings?
>
> it is sad you regard attempts to reach you and be of help as hostility and that you lash out before seeing what is really there.
> M
OK Margaret – I can let that whole thing go……………..and some was based on misunderstanding because of the way you comment’s are ‘delayed’. Fine it’s over as far as I am concerned but I do and did think you are really stretching things about me ‘discarding’ you. How could I ‘discard’ you? I mean that is nothing of my choice there and it seemed to me you think it’s easy as I am ‘down’ now to just pile any old crap on me. It is not! And don’t forget just because I am ‘out-numbered’ doesn’t mean a whole lot to me. My very first class in Philosophy in College the lecturer had this whole thing about the saying “Ten thousand Frenchmen can’t be wrong” and the Professor said not only can they be but very often they are. That has always stuck with me and actually it seems even more true as I see the way life is.
I want to ask Larry something. I mention Larry because he has been here a long time and I see him as basically a fair person and sensitive for the most part to what is going on. I want to ask him how does he thing HE would feel or anyone else for that matter if just about everything he wrote was ‘quoted back’ at him in the manner of it was ‘stupid’ or ‘wrong’ or whatever. I am honestly asking you Larry and my take is I can look I am sure very bad here sometimes but to me it’s sort of like those ISIS guys when they behead someone. What’s missing is the appalling provocations and destructiveness unleashed on their people by sneaky PR men.I AM talking about Jack he constantly and deliberately provokes me……………some people say ignore him…………I do…………for a while. But I see no reason for me to bite my tongue while this guy feels free to provoke, insult, throw stuff back in my face on and on day after day.
Leslie complained about the ‘poison’ on the blog and like I said I AGREE with her. It IS poison………….but Larry again to appeal to you who STARTS this shit all the time. I can tell you JACK does, I leave him be whatever he is going on about I leave it alone. He NEVER leaves me alone. He has even admitted it is ‘perverted’ I would say it is.So why do it then? If he knows it is ‘perverted’ since he makes such a show of being some kind of evolved primal man why do it then?
I value the blog whatever people may think of me and once again I agree with Leslie very much. This is NOT what I want here at all. This guy is pouncing all over me, like one time just as a random example I said vaccines was not the main point. His ‘retort’ “why the fuck do you talk about it then” That is a typical response from him. I am not asking you to take sides Larry but for God’s sake this is out of control. And nobody attempts to take control, not Gretchen not anybody. It is easy and lazy to see me as the perpetrator I am not!!. All I do when I sick to my stomach of this guys sarcasm and jibes and jive then I react . Yes I do!! As you would Larry or as would anybody. Anyway whatever this is all probably on deaf ears but I try really I just put down what is on my mind.
I am not some ‘maniac’ whatever people might like to believe………….is someone talks to me with a reasonable amount of care and respect I return that in kind. But this shit has gone on way too long prompted by David I even tried to make peace…………….NO go from ‘primal man’. i wonder what is going on really with Jack……………..to me he is a hollow man his notions are weak, he portrays himself as some kind of feeling paragon……………..but who in their right mind would day after day just try to destroy someone’s confidence, integrity and every thing else. It is a very sad ‘testament’ to primal if this is the ‘graduate’ really to me a terrible failure in most every area of life
And maybe this is what pisses him off so much………………to me he is PR man and I make it clear I am not ‘fooled’. At the same time we are all just trying to find our way in life if he basically leaves me alone I have no problem letting him be.
Patrick Tuesday July 21, 2015
Quote:- “…… to find our way in life if he basically leaves me alone ………”
You should having fucking well thought about ALL THAT when you first came on the blog 3.5 years ago.
I merely poke back to you your own ****** words … you on the other hand … it seems, “verbally bully”. I gather, something your pappy taught you whilst you played in the school yard … and seemingly, to this very day, you can’t give up.
Patrick, I’m not a therapist, I can’t help you. If you had been doing therapy these past many years, resolving some of you inner demons, Jack’s antics might not bother you so much by now. He really is a lighting rod reminding you of all you had to deal with in childhood. You and he will keep throwing blows at each other until the end of time, hapless puppets of your childhoods, or until one of you looks to resolve the inner life driving you.
In the meantime, for the sake of the blog all I and others can do is not bother to read the poison you and Jack hurl at one another.
I like that you value the blog Patrick. I think we all want the profoundly caring, supportive exploration of feelings that can happen here, but the unique atmosphere is easily destroyed.
Well thanks for nothing Larry as we used to say growing up. I don’t care for this thing about “if you had been doing therapy”………….well Larry I do believe I have and continue to. I do things my own way it does not check off any boxes anywhere the PI or wherever.
I notice others do this too like Vicki just say “Patrick is not in therapy” or “he does not pursue his feelings or whatever”……………..I find this pretty silly. I mean it was interesting I mentioned I spent an enjoyable day with two guys who were at the retreat. I tried to honestly look at it I could see no real difference in our situations, I certainly did not feel somehow they were ‘in’ therapy and I was ‘out’. If anything and of course this is just by definition only my way……………….I felt what I do is much better for me than kind of waiting in between one retreat and the next. Which is kind of what they told me they do or have to do.at it seems to them. A lot of people I know fall into this if primal was ‘vibrant’ which it’s not in any way that I can see you would have formal or informal groups all over the place. Instead you have a place as big as London and STILL to this day all that is ‘on offer’ really it seems is come to LA. The very same dilemma I had all the way back in the ’70’s. Nothing changes much especially in primal world which has become some kind of dysfunctional time warp. It was ‘dysfunctional’ then and what is so weird it is still so and even in the same way. In primal land literally nothing changes……………and it’s a therapy based on the IDEA of change……………I emphasize ‘idea’ an idea only it has remained.. From any real world perspective it has utterly failed and this failure is reflected in it’s structure and what they do and say and act like
That would be another of my Luther like ‘objections’ to be pinned on the door keep in mind I AM a ‘believer’ I do not attempt to throw away the ‘spirit’ my objections are to LA as Luther’s was to Rome you might say………….the PI in practice encourages dependency, to me every effort should be made to empower people WHEREVER they are to be able to live feeling lives. That could be done in many ways including using the computer world more effectively. Instead we have a pretty old fashioned ‘you come to us we don’t come to you’………………….pretty much Janov’s MO from the beginning. From way back he had this thing of saying “Welcome” is all these different languages………….welcome as in leave your own land and come to me. More like “Welcome to my Nightmare” truly. Even Larry you say yourself you seem to suffer from that syndrome quite a bit. The idea that there are ‘angels’ in the form of therapists or whatever in Los Angeles is a very vain hope in my opinion. They are only people you can find better or worse people anywhere.
Of course there is also a ‘business model’ going on here and to ‘our’ detriment as it always was. Another of my ‘objections’ would be the PI should in principle try to put itself out of business. I don’t even think they do it for the money anyway they have made their money at this point if someone was far seeing enough they would I think do exactly that – put themselves out of business. But with Janov at least ‘business’ was always a huge part of it. Another reason and possibly one of the main one it has gone so badly wrong. It ‘results’ are shockingly poor as it is often brought home to me when I have some actual ‘dealings’ with primallers. As I said before the average and I stress average Irish person and I am sure others I am only speaking of what I know can ‘conflict solve’ or ‘get over’ things way better than primallers who seem literally stuck in place. A time warp culturally and historically and also a personal time warp for people themselves. I guess time warps can be fun in a kind of narcissistic way but as far as ‘healing’ and ‘growth’ and the other words thrown around “not so much” as Borat says…………
Extremely well expressed Patrick. I don’t know Dr. Janov. His body of work is magnificent, and he keeps on trucking when he could be anywhere, feet up, sipping tropical juices. My belief is that he is a decent guy.
I have agreed before that I think it is a travesty that Primal Therapy is not a choice in every clinic.
That breakout should have been fostered by the founders. In 2008 Doctor Janov wrote in his newsletter on ” Deviations and Aberrations of Primal Therapy.” All of his caveats are I think impeccably well founded. But any argument can be used as a brick wall or a challenge to be overcome. I’m not smart enough to figure that out the solution. My best male friend, decent human, and highly educated and trained psychotherapist believes unequivocally that the charlatans and incomptetents would have weeded out and the cream of therapists risen to the top. I trust him unequivocally. In the process patients would have been hurt. For drop outs old defences get reestablished.
Potential patients are hurt because of the lack of accessible availability. I do know 45 years later Primal is a best kept secret and mocked. That is a horrible outcome.
That’s true enough Larry………..but that is asking me to be the way I HAD to be as a child like constant self control……………I thought this was different I mean it was supposed to be different but I get it that is only as an IDEA…………….in practice it is mostly the same old shit but actually worse because it is now overladen by a quite hypocritical (in practice) ‘idea’ So primallers are mostly just worse off than the ‘average’ person…………….not in theory but in practice yes mostly……………haven’t you noticed……………I have and see it all the time……………
Patrick, extremely well written. Very moving .I hope Larry is neutral when he responds. I wonder where Jack, and others, would go with,” it,” if you chose not to visibly respond to
crap and simply wrote about your self generated stuff.
I had a supervisor, 30 years into my career, who absolutely hated me. We had been, ” good friends,” in Social Work School. He wasn’t academically cable of handling the course load and would say he would have never graduated if not for my help. That all changed later on. I think it was his drinking and womanizing and he imagined because I was a straight arrow that I saw him as flawed. Or maybe that I knew these things about him. .. The start of it coincided with my daughter’s death and my promotion to Senior Western Provincial Region Social Worker, which I had never applied for. Or, whatever…..
He was intent to drive me out. And he was politically connected. First, I tried telling myself it was his problem, he was sneaky and destructive and volatile and since he had massacred our old friendship he was unimportant personally and I would, ” choose,” not to let it bother me. You know the, ” not owning it,” ” STRATEGY.” That works fine for someone I interact with occasionally, but I had this prick in my face daily.
I tried several things including insulting him when he attacked me in private, often subtly so it would only hit him later, and his hatred would become so palpable he sometimes made a fool of himself. He was also athletic and very good looking and suave with the ladies. That had a charming affect on many of our female staff . Nothing worked.
I finally fell on writing an email to him whenever he was pushing my buttons in which I unloaded all of the most vile anger I could muster up. Then I read it until ,and when, it had worked it’s magic, and my volatility and vulnerability had passed, I then hit, “DELETE.” I started taking clients/patients in to visit him, and say I knew how well he followed casework, ( which he couldn’t,) and would he have any comments or suggestions. The fool would end up complementing me on my ability and performance in the presence of clients and board members. He’d then say to me in passing in the corridor that I thought I was being, ” so fucking clever….” I’d ask what he meant with a quizzical blank face.
From our brief conversations I think I see some ways in which you and I are alike. ( Being successful in money making is not one !!! hah I used to give my excess income away when I was in LA. Now thanks to the Canada Life pension manager raping my retirement account, via,” frequent trading,” I’m a bloody pauper. )
But, when I sense I’m in , ” real trouble,” being used unfairly, being discarded, used, kicked out. cheated on, I can go through a cycle, pissed off, saying too much, too badly; then apologizing, begging, trying harder, struggling, ” explaining,”get depressed, and repeat all of the foregoing, all to try to get back in. I know it made me look silly, even crazy. And it’s like throwing a bleeding chicken out on the manure pile, the carrion close in. And I know that mantra was created in my family of origin.
The closest I ever came to being physically violent was when I kicked the rear quarter panel of a car one of my now ex wife’s boyfriends loaned her so she could screw off with him for a long weekend. The big boy thing would have been to have divorced her and written, ” FUCK YOU,” in my permanent memory, because she is poison. And raised my kids by myself.
From experience I learned that the worst thing I can do with an attacker is to apologize if I get drawn into responding. While it would be fine with someone who truly loves me it makes me appear weak in any other situation, and invites them to continue the attack. When I resist responding I found they burn themselves out and usually end up exposing their hand and looking badly.
I feel for you, Patrick. It must hurt terribly.
I’ve been in a situation with my oldest daughter for several years now. I believed that she would come around and apologize and ask for another chance. WE were best buds. So far she has not found the strength to do so. And continuing feeling guilty and embarrassed she pretends to be the one wronged. So I don’t get to see those grandchildren, including my 9 year old grandson who once lived with me and idolized me. That’s what set it off, he spontaneously confronted his mother, based on the difference of living with me and her, with not being a good parent and that she was selfish and a liar. My ex wife, who has always bullied our daughter, jumped on that like a bear on honey and started a holy war against me. When my ex and her current husband lost their business, I fed them, for nearly a year, bought his cardiac meds, put gas in their car.
Friends who know the situation and how it hurts me, say things like, it’s her loss, move on, let it go… But I’ve loved her since she was a kick in her mom’s belly. I miss them. I love my kids more than my own life. There’s nothing I can do to change it.
I feel a need to be clear here. When I wrote about my daughter not apologizing I don’t need an apology, but believe she needs to to regain her power and self respect.
I like a lot of what this guy Jon Rappoport says. Quote below.
“These inventions (drugs and medical interventions) attack a vulnerability summed up by people who say to themselves, ‘Maybe there’s something wrong with me that I don’t know about.’
The vulnerability increases, because the individual is forgetting he has an independent existence. As this amnesia sets in, what takes the place of his intrinsic confidence? A general sense of dependency.
Here’s the dependency formula: ‘I need to rely on others to understand myself; I need to listen to the advice of friends and family; I need to listen to the experts; I need to belong to the group; I need to think as the group thinks; we all need to wear our disease-and-disorder diagnoses as badges of pride and honor.’
In other words, in society, we have a complete reversal of what constitutes pride and honor. Under the guise of showing ‘sympathy for the afflicted,’ a massive psyop is underway to promote the notion that we are all afflicted and confessing to it is good thing”.
Finally feelings about being back home after the retreat coalesced into a cry. Like happened many times in LA and at the retreat, I awoke in the night and lay restless, my breathing shallow, my mind racing, a time of the day when my defences are weakest. I got up and put on some music. Bruce Springsteen’s ‘Philadelphia’ did it for me, in particular the line ‘No angel is going to greet me…..It’s just you and I my friend.’
Years ago I’ve written how the therapists feel to me like angels hovering nearby, trying to help but not intervening, shedding some light on the dark scary path I need to take, helping me to feel a little brave to confront the monsters in the dark.
After the intense feeling of support and connection at the retreat, what’s hard about being back home is there are no angels to greet me. It’s just me, my life and friends. In childhood there should be the feeling of loving parents hovering, guiding, watching out for me. There was nothing. Just me growing up needing them but alone. That’s the feeling and the truth I see and accept more and more, a little at a time, how sadly that because of their sickness there was no one for me. God how hard to grow up alone.
I think sometimes and more so lately of retiring to the place I grew up, near family and a few long term friends there. It feels like a better base from which to grow my life in retirement than from my current home.600 miles away. Something always bothered me about going back though, and this morning in my crying I realized that returning home really hits home that there will be no angels, and never were any loving parents, to greet me.
If I want angels hovering nearby, I’d have to move to LA I think.
Hi Larry. No we’ve never met. Have not had formal therapy. I’ve read here a couple of years and braved contributing a year ago when Gretchen was welcoming to non-group people. In my search for like-minded people who didn’t push their feelings down it was very reaffirming; a port in the storm. I’ve learned from everyone here. In or out of group we have to do the work ourselves. This has served as a type of group touchstone for me and a map or guide of sorts. It is odd to share with strangers but I’ve come to care about the group as if we were friends.
True enough, we have to do the work ourselves. How brave of you to contribute. I wish we could all live near to each other. When people don’t write here for a while, I miss them as I would friends who move away. It’s nice that you write and I’m glad you find this group helpful. I guess we all find this group helpful, that being why we keep coming back and participating here.
Speaking of Los Angeles this is a cool song I put it on before so I just put on the words here. It’s about a singer/songwriter trying to make it in LA but it could be lots of different things. I like the idea of devils in this angel town. Is Janov a ‘devil’ in some ways I would say yes he is………….so Larry don’t sell your soul to the devil you know that never ends well…………….
She grew up with
The children of the stars
In the hollywood hills and the boulevard
Her parents threw big parties
Everyone was there
They hung out with folks like
Dennis hopper, bob seeger, sonny and cher
Now, she feels safe
In this bar on fairfax
And from the stage I can tell that
She can’t let go and she can’t relax
And just before
She hangs her head to cry
I sing to her a lullaby, I sing
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Rockabye
She still lives with her mom
Outside the city
Down that street about a half a mile
And all her friends tell her
She’s so pretty
But she’d be a whole lot prettier
If she smiled once in a while
’cause even her smile
Looks like a frown
She’s seen her share of devils
In this angel town
But, everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Rockabye
I told her I ain’t so sure
About this place
It’s hard to play a gig in this town
And keep a straight face
Seems like everyone here’s got a plan
It’s kind of like nashville with a tan, but,
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye, rockabye, bye, bye
Bye, bye
> Patrick,
> may I suggest you reread calmly the comment in which I recall us talking about the subject of virtually discarding people off a virtual list of being of interest?
> I did not say you discarded me, we were simply discussing the probability of it having happened in case you would just have spotted me at a retreat and never have gotten to know me better, by lack of opportunity or initiative, compared to the real situation we were in of staying in a house together and spending a lot of time together.
>
> it was, I repeat a very friendly conversation in which there was enough openness to ask you how you would have mentally ‘labelled’ me in case of only superficial encounters. the topic also adressing the labelling we all tend to do, often misguided, of people on a first impressio
> for myself I still need to be vigilant as it is clear first impressions are very prone to be coloured by old feelings, our fears colouring them in my case with possible rejection of me, and therefor, until they smile at me or say something nice, tending to ‘paint’ them mentally as stupid and uninteresting/uninterested’…
>
> so in that line of conversation my question to you was if I would have been one of what you referred to as well, let me parafrase you, sorry if it is not giving credit to the more balanced kind of conversation we had back then, but ore or less what you referred to as a group of primal losers and weaklings
>
> the mere impression of being a sorry disabled person or better said possibly looking like one for the casual observer, can easily put me in that category for a lot of people.
>
> so as you were already talking about some of your expectations and prejudices quite openly, it was actually very good you confirmed you might have probably indeed put me in the category of sorry losers, and the next line of conversation was more or less ‘mistakenly so, smiley’..
>
> so maybe if you read this carefully, you see my message is not one of criticism or rejection, but a memory of how there used to be a real openess then.
>
> for the current situation on the blog, the best thing I feel like saying is it always takes two to tango.
> and another cliché that contains a lot of truth is ‘what you give is what you get’..
>
> even from Jack you have received positive feedback several times on this blog, always when you just talked in an open way about your own feelings instead of focusing on what is wrong with someone else.
>
> well, I rest my case, feel I have repeated myself more than enough already..
> M
Margaret – that’s fine it all sounds true even if I don’t specifically remember the conversation I have no more issues about that. And actually I kind of do remember it the way you say
It’s true Jack has been ‘nice’ to me or ‘supportive’ once in a while and even though for sure that is better than being mocked and harassed……………..still and I don’t want to be churlish about it……………it feels almost a bit I dunno almost ‘creepy’. Maybe that’s not quite the right word (too strong) but it’s like I am ‘praised’ for that and ‘condemned’ for most everything else I say and do.
Just writing about it now it reminds me how I was ‘valued’ for my so called brain, my Dad kind of set me up as his little ‘genius’ who could or might do a lot of the things he wanted to do. And like with Jack I don’t want to be churlish about that either, I ‘loved’ my Dad very much and would do anything to please him or ‘pay him back’ as I saw it for being my protector in some very rough situations. But it’s a problem if I was only loved for one thing there was of course so much more to me which was not valued hardly at all.
And that is a feeling I get from a situation like that………………there is a LOT to me I am interested in a lot of things. The fact I cry sometimes or might or whatever is just one small part of me. I am me when finding out about vaccines or the origin of life or anything I am interested in or care about. And there is quite a lot sorry to repeat that I am interested in. . So if someone ‘loves’ me for example here being ‘able’ to cry it does not feel good. I mean it does feel good in a way for itself but if then the other 95% of me is rejected as a ‘head trip’ or whatever…………….It’s like some weird inversion of the situation with my Dad………….he ‘loved’ me for my brain here I am hated because of my brain. Why can’t I be accepted for what I am and all aspects. None is better or more privileged than another as I like to say “it’s all good” or ideally it would be.
> Sylvia, haha, always regarded Chicke as quite smart really!
>
> do they also start to hiss like the geese do?
> and attack from behind??
>
> once I heard an interesting explanation giving away some of the secrets of chicken language, which I observed with our own chickens and appeared to be true:
> they have two similar, but still different combinations of sounds, one is the long plok at the start, the other with the long ploook at the end, so there is ploooookplokplokplokplok and there is plokplokplokplokploooook, and one, forgot which, means ‘I am about to lay an egg’ and the other is ‘ok I am done’, which gives the other chickens two different lues as to their behavior with regard of possible predators and staying close, or moving on or whatever…
>
> you should hear the way my screenreader did a good job at pronouncing those ploks, hahaha!!!
>
> they also have a kind of plook which makes all the fluffy little ones race to hide under her wings for protection, and I am sure some other ploooks as well for other stuff, chicken talk..
>
> crows so far have been checked as to have at least 50 different kinds of ‘kraaa’ all specifically meaning stuff like ‘human’, airplane’, ‘eagle’ or ‘dead meat, yummie’ for example.
>
> so far I only know ‘danger’ and ‘all clear’, which are short ‘ka’s’, or longer ‘kaaaa’s’.
>
> find that kind of stuff fascinating..
> M
> David, that is so sad,the storu about your daughter and not being able to see your grandchildren..
>
> I apologize in advance as maybe what I will say is not in place, but I am raised as a caretaker, so well, I accept the option of this being maybe unwelcome advice..
>
> but you seem very good at expressing your love, in a very touching way, so I wondered if you tried to send her a lettter or an e-mail telling her how much you love her and how much you miss her and her children.. maybe you have done so already, and probably also already said you feel sorry about being on bad terms, but well, maybe it helps trying again and being the parent once more in some way..
>
> in any case I truely hope things get right again between you or at least that you can see the grandkids again, otherwise it is so awfully sad..
> M
Thank you, Margaret. I’ve tried everything. No way to understand the ongoing recalcitrance. Her mother convinced her that I put the words in my grandson’s mouth. All I can try now is time as a healer. I wave when we pass on the highway; and speak in stores, don’t have her email address; she won’t answer Facebook messages, but, hasn’t blocked me. So she ignores me. WE were bonded at the hip. When she was feeling threatened by her son confronting her she told a number of friends what a horrible guy I am. Before that I was superior human of the millennium. She has never been good at backing down. I’ve told her I hold no ill feelings, that I love her.
Yeah, Margaret, caretaker; me, too. And defender of the underdog and wrongly treated. I used to joke that I raised my mother to the best of my ability. I’m really much better; don’t feel compelled much to look after people anymore. After my time in LA I found it was not as exhausting in my work, while at the same time I was more comfortable wading in deeper with patients’ feelings. Theirs weren’t always pulling on my own and I better recognized when they did. Tough job learning how to become a person on my own; as Virginia Satir used to say, “an actualized person, ” ha;so many words.
david
David said “I used to joke that I raised my mother to the best of my ability”……….that’s pretty funny did you think of that yourself…………..I could see it somewhere in a comedy act.
Actually it came out spontaneously, Patrick, when representing a young lad to a school that didn’t want him. The principal said he had personal problems too but he didn’t use the story to garner special favours. Rather than strangle the fool I said, “.. this boy raised his mother to the best of his ability until he was four, when she crawled inside a pill bottle, and never came out. And then has raised himself ever since. Did you have to do that, John ?”
I threatened to go to the media, so he gave the 17 year old illiterate a try at Grade 10, week by week review. Three years later he achieved a Grade 12, 25 credit Academic pass, and went on to University.. And what a pain in the ass he is. I warn you don’t ever do anything above work to rule for anyone. They get used to being used like someone that matters and your life is over…. Is an LOL really necessary here ?? Great kid.
> David,
> that resonates so strongly with me, ‘I raised my mother at the best of my ability’, sure rings a bell loud and clear.
>
> funny but a lot of pain involved there too.
> specially now that she is really losing more and more of her capacities, and therefor finally really starting to need to be taken care of to some degree..
> that trigggers a lot of old stuff.
>
> luckily it also brought me and my brother a lot closer together and that brings the tension level down to a degree where we manage to let the compassion and tenderness and love prevail over the irritation and impatiense,m and on the moments one of us gets close to losing patience the other one takes over.
>
> it also helps to be able to talk about it with him.
>
> now finally our mom is starting to bring up the option of a nursing home herself, so next week we will go look at one together.
>
> might make her change her mind again, will see..
> M
Raising Momma: that resonates with me too, Margaret and David. When I was a kid I could see how much my mom was hurting. As a girl with several boys in the family I sometimes felt that I was in a unique situation to understand her. I was sensitive too and easily hurt. But of course my brothers felt her pain too and maybe I didn’t appreciate how much so. A few months ago I was discussing with my brother how Mom used to always say she was going to leave because everything was just too much for her and no one understood her. I told her I would go with her (though I loved my dad, she was the one to do the daily things to take care of us and I didn’t want to lose her.) She never left. My brother said he remembered it well and that he had put her favorite candy bar on the front seat of the car so she would have something she liked when she left. We were about 8 and 10yrs.
I’m particularly moved by your account of your brother putting he favourite candy bar on the car seat for her. What kind people we were before being messed with. The raising mom thing is so manipulative, at least in my case; implants a lot of fears, guilt, and other feelings.
“When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.” (Lao Tzu)
———————————————————–
Not sure about the quote above – I just liked it! 🙂
At this retreat I started to discover just how much I have segregated a myriad of aspects of my life. How I have segregated people out for certain roles; those people for solely one purpose. Or specific places for certain requirements, school or home or my room. I begin to realise how even the thought of ‘mixing’ (what to me would be) ‘incompatible’ aspects of my life would jarr [sp] me. A laughable aspect would be how I can’t bear certain foods to touch, for example. Or god forbid – that family would want to meet friends!!
It is not only a conscious device that I have cultivated to anchor some semblance of safety in my life from a young age, but it is also manifested physically by my body too. I will not give examples – but those of you who know me – know why – and wont ask here.
I think my shock is that I believed that only my brain had segregated ‘life’ into manageable chunks … but my body and its ‘automatic’ responses and ‘systems’ are included in the ‘control’ I exerted on myself.
How scary – that a young child can learn to control aspects of a ‘seemingly’ untouchable part of themselves, but I did/do just that. The little me learned early to control a couple of aspects of my autonomic nervous system. Go me! But poor me that felt I HAD to do that!
This is all a bit new – and I am still craving the company and support I get from the retreats.
Seeing some goooooooood friends comment on here and with the email banter and skype etc that goes on behind the scenes too, well… it has spurred me to spew my bit on here.
It will not last…
I was, or tried to be, in a relationship once with a compartmentalized woman. That was a marathon. She was, intrigued, ” grateful,” exuberant, and then totally freaked out as she gained the trust to allow me, the first person, she said, to see, to know, all of her, declaring I was her soul mate. Then she threw up the barricade and fled.
It’s great to hear from you here, Fiona. I hope that’s not a threat that spewing your bit won’t last.
It’s sure shocking sometimes to realize the extent to which our coping mechanisms extend into our lives.
Vicki,
You invited me to expand on as comment I made about being bullied up to the age of 15. Thank you for doing this: It was a caring invitation.
I have been off the blog for a few days, mainly because I had a session with Barry on Monday. I first told him I was back on the blog and talked about my interaction with David. I then told him I was anxious because I had asked Patrick a few direct questions (he had not replied at that stage). I talked about other stuff: I had buddied on Sunday so that saved some time in the session, as I was closer to feelings. Barry came back to my interaction with David: he thought there was anxiety around this interaction. I was not sure of the cause/effect here. He told me that I was usually anxious but it was particularly prominent that day.
At the end of the session he said that my anxiety was childhood fear filtered through my cortex, and that I had to keep several “plates spinning” to deal with it,
Since then i have tried to be aware of the fear beneath my daily anxieties: a routine doctor’s visit or someone mentioning to me they need to go over stuff at work with me. These are typical of the spinning plates. Minor and inconsequential things in reality, but my mind seems to seek and cling to things to be anxious about so the fear can be processed/acted out/defended against.
I was aware yesterday of how horrible a way this is to live. This aweful fear underpinning everything. There is an inherent sense of isolation that sometimes even interaction with others cannot quell. A part of the feeling is that is that they cannot protect me from every potential aweful thing,
I have an early and deep fear, and this contributed to being picked on later on (kids who want to bully will hone in on those too afraid to defend themselves). This lead to more fear and anxiety.
I will see how this unfolds.
Donal
Thanks for writing that, Donal — it’s getting to know you a bit better. “kids who want to bully will hone in on those too afraid to defend themselves” rings, as I often find myself struggling to defend myself, even to remember the truth of the situation, when attacked by a bully. I’m so afraid, I start to cave in apologetically, then if I allow more time, suddenly I realize — wait a minute, what about this, and that — and then realize how afraid I was, I was going to ‘give it away’, give away my rights as a human to be treated like a person.
It’s like we give off a signal. Odd, I practiced Shotokan Karate for over 20 years; no Bruce Lee; but, I was in an agricultural exhibition beer tent one night when a fight broke out. It quickly became wild west style, so I left; just ambled though the brawlers. No one tried to engage me and I didn’t touch anyone. Reflecting on it after, I thought that my being unafraid and having no desire to be involved that I didn’t look like a victim nor a combatant.
This isn’t in response to any post, but the new page 3 doesn’t seem to have a simply.” Comment,” selection. I don’t understand why but I really had to force myself to post this. Maybe that old , won’t be believed thing. I don’t know. Was watching Mash TV rerun. ” Major Winchester, ” was showing an uncharacteristic, human side. Something triggered a feeling. I’ve always been aware of the scene in a pictural/intellectual recall way. This time was the first time I felt it. The terror, me rocking, begging, I’m sorry, promising to be a better boy. Finally she says ok she won’t drown herself, and I take her hand and lead her home. She has a weird small smile.The feeling is almost erotic, elated, my mom isn’t going to leave me. The suffocating sobs came from the bottom of me. Had to get out of the feeling I hurt so physically. Scared to post this.
Hi
I’ve been trying to figure out what’s going on with me, since the retreat and my return to OZ.
Slowly, I am starting to realise that I’m suffering from the same old feelings of neglect. Not bonding with my mum. Not feeling connected to my mum.
At night, when I get into bed, I make sure I wrap the blankets around me, virtually swaddling myself, thereby comforting myself, trying to put myself to sleep.
Is this all there is to my life? Searching for the missed comforting, for ever?
Can’t I have a life, now? Will nothing else do?
Mummmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
There is silence here at home in contrast to my three weeks in LA.
It’s unnerving, and sometimes throws me back to my childhood painful aloneness.
I have much to do to make each day fulfil me, and find a way of bringing more people into my life.
Meanwhile, I reflect this morning on a vision which sits in my mind, which I may paint…of the dining area against the background trees at La Casa, full of us lot eating, interacting, animated. And remembering excitement, with acute anxiety, the drive up El Bosque road the first time years ago, the impact of seeing the grounds of La Casa with the oak trees.
Trees mean a lot to me, have so many memories attached. In my childhood garden, solid, rooted, cover for wildlife, changing with the seasons, climb, pick fruit from, sit under and lean on, break sticks and bark from, somewhere at school to climb up, escape and feel free.
I’m glad you wrote this Jo. The silence compared to our time in LA is disturbing. Being at work takes my mind off it but isn’t a solution. I put in a 14 hour work day today, in the field with my summer student help and a post doc. It took my mind off the silence, but didn’t grow my life. I may be this busy one day a week until the end of September. Too much of my time and energy goes into work, not enough left for growing my life. I need to change the balance. After September I’ll start working less. More and more I want to retire and have other life experience, but I dread the silence I anticipate.
> Donal,
> your comment about anxiety resonates so strongly with me.
> thanks for expanding on that, it really shed some light on what goes on for me as well.
>
> I know that ‘searching’ for what to be anxious about, sometimes Icatch myself imagining things in the future that might possibly happen and what I should do about it in that case, to then get a hold on myself and put a stop to it as it is clearly not something in reality (yet) to be concerned about.
>
> I seem to be scanning all the time what I should ‘control’, the fear is always present, more prominently so the last two years.
>
> as you say, finding stuff to hook it on seems to be a way to try to keep it under control..
>
> it is indeed an awful way to live but well, until more of the fear gets processed there is little choice but to do stuff regardless of being scared, not always possible, it makes me cancel stuff..
>
> fear seems so hard to deal with, other feelings can be worked with in some way to process them, sadness gets resolved bit by bit by crying, horrible as it may be, anger gets resolved by expressing it and getting to the underlying sadness, need can be expressed and felt, which of course does not always make it go away but still, but fear, ha!!
>
> nightmares seem my best way in to the overwhelming intensity of the feeling, but there is indeed something very isolated about it, feel close to tears right now..
> M
> Jo,it is a nice idea to picture you up in a tree as a little girl.
> i also love trees, loved to climb them, despite my dad disapproving of me being ‘just like a boy’…
>
> my very first spontaneous primal feeling that took me by surprise, was ‘I am a girl!!!!’
>
> M
I need some reality here!
Donal you asked Patrick good questions that continue to be ignored.
Margaret – why do you accept so little and think you have a friend. Patrick “throws you under the bus” so fast and furiously so often. Your patience and kindness shine through as you try to calmly placate him after he has just called you “a fucking liar!”. We knew you hadn’t lied, and in fact when Patrick realizes that, he counters – “Yes, I will let the whole thing go” !
You deserve so much more Margaret. You are the one that can get further with why for this & all the other times, (both past and recent) of his hurtful rants that you still go back for more. Patrick cannot and will not change as he so often says he is doing just fine – even better than any of us!
Yes, Patrick who can do better than Janov, better than Obama and so many others – however never does a thing beyond his arm chair critiquing and ranting. Whose hatred of Jews, gays, overweight people etc.etc. spills over continuously. Its all here on the blog – not hard to find.
And then an actual ‘in person’ verbal assault happens to Vicki – please re-read what Patrick shouted if you need to – and Patrick wants to tell his side of it. No – there is no your side here Patrick.
David – you have said you relate to the underdog but this is not an underdog story. This is a very sick person making places unsafe. It should not be condoned & therefore encouraged.
My dad – a pseudo intellectual also, who hid behind it all successfully in many facets of society worked so hard to convince us and everyone else of his superiority. A deeply damaged man underneath for sure – suffering from undiagnosed mental illness in fact – who destroyed us. It is that tragic mess that I see in my sister and brothers’ emotional lives and my life too that we are still scrambling to right – that hurts so much. We needed him to be removed, and he needed that boundary set too.
Leslie, very well said and very real. I can see why this has struck such a chord in you in how you describe your dad, and know first hand how such damage is far reaching.
Here in present time I’ve also disgustedly witnessed the poison and unacceptable destructive behaviour.
I don’t have Barry or Gretchen’s unique skills, or your gift of articulating this situation clearly, and although I haven’t remotely wanted to engage with this particular toxicity..I’ve been privately and deeply appalled.
Margaret, it has seemed odd to me that you come back for more..
I have to admit, it makes me uncomfortable the way Margaret appeases Patrick, like the way a bruised girlfriend/wife still strives to see the best in her abusive boyfriend/husband.
Larry,
Hopefully I can get free of it……Barry seems to have little doubt that I will. Seems unbelievable to me but comforting that he is confident.
I felt good today…..the doctor’s visit went fine…..none of my anxieties came to fruition. But the appointment was last thing today, Even before that I felt good so could deal so the anxiety was mainly just this sort of nervous anticipation that things would be fine, Plus, I felt strong at work dealing with people and situations in a balanced but direct way,
Feelings take a strange course sometimes…….
It occurs to me that I rarely cry or get into a feeling (“primalling” as some may say) at least in the discrete way others seem to be able to. This used to bother me, but I rarely even think about it anymore.
It used to make me feel left out, a bit of a failure in primal terms but I really don’t care. anymore….P still feel I am making progress, Ay one point when I worried about never crying, Mark pointed out to me that my life was getting better, He opined that surely this was the goal to therapy, not having feelings…..
Donal.
I wouldn’t worry about it Donal – ‘wanting’ to cry or ‘trying’ to cry is probably one of the worst aspects/outcomes of primal therapy, what Janov in his latest blog though maybe he means it is a slightly different way calls a ‘neurosis within a neurosis’ and he should know he has probably seen lots of it
Quote: ” It becomes a neurosis inside another neurosis” I like that it’s a nice turn of phrase though a turn of phrase was never his problem……………..THAT he could always do…………
I’m glad you feel you are making progress, Donal. I’m glad you don’t feel you are a failure. Seems to me you have a lot of insight. But the fear to deal with.
Jo and Tom: leaving Primal after the retreat has brought up feelings in you both. I wonder if it echoes something in your pasts: the pain of detaching from people . Attachment is such a critical thing to a young child: detachment of the failure of a mother to attach can be so damaging, I remember doing a research project on attachment theory in school. It was painful to learn of how critical attachment is prior to age 2….I was acutely aware that I never bonded with my mother. More correctly, my mother could not create the bond with me that every child needs at such a basic level.
The thoughts of how much damage that did to me were overwhelming,
Donal
Donal, I was told that I was put in hospital at 18 months, and I have a scene of that but haven’t fully accessed it…no mummy or daddy visiting or staying over in those days. Same deal at 4 years, and again at 6. Boarding school the last straw.
I described my early years to my buddy this retreat, where I and my brother were put out in the garden to play for hours. Hence my early relationship with trees (plus certain flowers, dogs). He said “it sounds idyllic”, and in many ways it was, but I have accessed how alone and unwanted I felt, even before the school event.
Recreating my past – aloneness/abandonment/yearning for a garden/dog//”people” is steeped in me, in my face all the time, relentless.
Oh yes, I am so thankful for the primal process, to have some real Jo back, and have the gift of peaceful, joyful and rewarding moments.
Hi Margaret,
Sorry I have not responded to your post to me from the weekend. I have been busy and am on the blog for short spurts only. To answer your question, I am still trying to change my career yo psych…..I am looking at classes in the fall to work towards licensing, I got promoted in my current career, so was acclimating at that over the last year, My goal this year is to leave my current job with a lot accomplished and then transition.
Donal.
I read Art Janov’s article that you mentioned: very good explanation of abreaction in the context of primal therapy. A little alarming at how destructive and urreversible it can be: I always thought it would be possible for a person to stop and get on the right track relatively easily, but it would seem not,
I have often seen people have dramatic feelings, but sometime it seems off, They are too much in control or have a pre-conceived notion of how they will feel the feeling they arrive to group in, A lot of the time I got into stuff it has a life of its own: often ot goes somewhere I could not have predicted.
DOnal
Yes Donal I found it very interesting. About a year ago a good friend of mine and someone I consider very ‘smart’ (he has been through primal) said the whole ‘fetish of crying’ was silly and got a person nowhere. I sort of did not want to hear that but because I really respect him I listened and for me at least it is an important lesson/message. A ‘life of it’s own’ is a good phrase if we are ‘neurotic’ by definition we don’t know what is driving us so it makes sense to ‘listen’ without pre conceived notions…………
I can think of a lot of reasons I forced, thought about, created, wanted, the scene I felt or thought I about. Back here, on my own, no one to impress, perform for, or whatever, I would tell myself out loud to stop thinking. I’d get really pissed with myself. For me it worked and I at least stopped thinking. Now it’s a feeling that leads me to a scene, or doesn’t. At the end I still often cry for myself, what I lost, can never have. I think that’s valid. For the longest time it was connected I think to shifting to sadness, the safest, easiest thing for me to feel, or just crying away what I started feeling.
Just had a flash of going to write, ” because no one else gives a shit, ” but recognize it’s manipulative, ” feel sorry for me, ” thing.
I read Dr. Janov’s latest blog entry after reading your comments; and, unwisely, just before bed. I am familiar with abreaction, but the negatives began, one more thing to fear; maybe it’s best to suffer rather the try to feel on one’s own and make it worse, or with a non certified therapist, on and on…. Woke sometime, me and bed linens soaked, terrified, primal blog pages so faint I strain to read, then realize I’m inventing the body of each entry; and a far away voice saying, ” You wrote here earlier about your ex wife and I’m here to say I know something about that and you’re, a fucking liar……..”
I’ve lost again. So much for being honest, kind, loving, I’ll never get it right. Just a fuck up; no wonder mom tried to kill me. Fuck it. I’ll cry for me if I want. I’m all I’ve got. All I ever had.
David, you know who “no one else gives a shit…” is, right?!
I can relate to your first paragraph … in the sense that before a session, individual or group, I envisaged the feeling, how it would go, but more often than not that wasn’t it, a weird way of defending I suppose ( in my case)
Hey, Jo; Could you flesh this out a bit more for my aging brain… hah thanks, dave
Weird, not that many, “Jo’s,” about. I had a cousin, ” Jo,” for Josephine, who died when I was 12. I adored her. Every time I see your name in print, I feel a glow, and sometimes a bit sad, and see her kind face in my mind’s eye.
Dave, i wondered if the “no one” you referred to meant someone in the past.
* * *
Re-reading your 7.38 post, I think I misinterpreted what you said, but it reminded me somehow of the fact that at times I have a dialogue going on in my head of what think I need to talk about with Barry or Gretchen in a session or at group, and sometimes it was a sort of safer option than facing something more painful.
Just once I appeared at the PI, unscheduled, really fucked up, in a huge emotional crisis, I was dying, sheer panic, couldn’t breathe, rocking incessantly, itching, scratching, sweating. I was allowed to go down to a private room. As I laid on the floor engulfed in/by the feeling, all of a sudden I had the thought that I could crawl up the wall like a fly. That caused my gaze to veer upwards and suddenly I saw me, 4 years old, wearing carpenter overalls, in the point where one wall met the other looking down at me. I heard in my head that he was still with me, but that I had to stop acting like a child. I don’t remember what followed but I know I was mightily impressed with the significance of the event, ” I had arrived,”; and got caught up in that. My therapist arrived I told him my experience and he commented, ” It would be good if you could wait for me next time.” That response sparks quite a bit of humour in me now. And I don’t mean that in any sarcastic way.
Nothing terrified me more than to be asked what I was feeling, because I would go blank; or so I thought but I know now it was triggering being beaten again after an original beating for not admitting knowing what I had done wrong or why I had done the thing I was being beaten for. ” Don’t lie to me, ” You know.” Often I was being , ” helped,” by her, ” beating the devil, ” out of me.
I’d have been better off if she had killed me the first time she tried. Anti abortionists don’t have a clue. Anti euthanasia proponents don’t have a clue. Death isn’t the worst outcome.
But we do survive. We’re living proof, aren’t we ?? And that reality is one I shared with others when there was really noting else to give them on which to draw strength to continue choosing, ” alive;” that we survived at a time in our development we were less prepared to do so. Barry once wrote me, ” That which doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.” I was at the disadvantage of not being able to see his face. He has a wicked sense of humour, so he may have been grinning. And that sentiment/adage is hardly original. It broke me up, saying out loud to myself, ” Barry that is so fucking cliche, ” while laughing my ass off. There is obvious truth there, too, of course. But really, Barry has better stuff than that in his repertoire catalogue…
Jedd Clampett line, ” That fella just put a grinnin’ onto you, Jethro.”
I went to every session a blank canvas; a dummy; sometimes the urge took over to perform I think, to be the # 1 student, most loved boy. I’d get pissed, feel a failure when some new patient got held up in group by a therapist as someone who was really doing super at Primal. An important person, who the therapists liked because he was going to be a great success. And I’d watch that chosen, worthy, exalted, aryan, adonis, or goddess, bask in all of that warm recommendation, nodding her/his head in acknowledgement of being worthy of all of that praise of success, and first time at bat at that, and die inside. Usually young, handsome, or beautiful, and I was nothing, a failure, couldn’t do anything right, liar, making up scenes, passed on and on to , ” lesser, ” therapists because I wasn’t worth the best. I wasn’t going anywhere. No one would ever want me, pick me. I’d just be the brunt of every taunt and joke, laughed at like a retard, just like my mother said.
It’s a bit like here somehow when I read somebody pouring out their pain, and no one comments.Another report of lees pain and urgency can solicit a flood.
> Leslie, before I read the rest of the comments, there is a difference between behaving like a friend, or maybe even just like a person with good intentions and regarding another person as a friend.
>
> all I try to do is to bring more reality here.
> I think you jump a little too far with some of your conclusions, smiley.
> M
> Jo and Larry,
> you really seem to misinterpret me here.
> I don’t expect anything from Patrick, how can you think I regard him as my friend after all the things he said to me in the past?
>
> still, it does not mean I can’t try to help him see reality, like when he calls me a lyer it seems to be the ost constructive thing to do to point him out what truely happened and help him to remember and see how he gets carried away with his rage.
>
> aren’t we all here to help each other with unraveling our feelings?
>
> do you only say helpful things in groups to people you consider your friend?
>
> i even find what you say a bit offensive Larry, no idea you underestimated me that much.
>
> also to JO, ‘coming back for more’ well, that is not what I do either.
>
> most of Patricks rants don’t affect me that much anyway as to my feeling they contain little to no thruth about me.
>
> it does not affect me much to be called a lyer while I don’t lie, does that make sense?
> after all the only thing one needs to do then is to put out the truth with a clear conscience.
>
> well, the main thing is I feel ok myself about when I talk and what I say and what my motives are.
>
> but it does not feel pleasant to be misinterpreted like this.
>
> M
> p.s. and Leslie, do you really think I did not notice Patrick just saying ok I let go or something similar the first time?
>
> you guys really offend me by not seeing the bigger picture.
>
> what matters to me is that wehn I wrote again Patrick did say he was starting to remember the conversation we had had again.
>
> you say you want some reality, but I feel picked on here all of a sudden for being the one that stands up most on this blog for fighting for it to remain as real as possible without just sitting back and remaining silent when the going gets tough.
>
> Leslie I must give you credit for daring to take a strong stand when I was putting up a vote in the past to get Patrick off the blog.
>
> and now you all seem to accuse me of well, beats me what, for standing my ground?
>
> I see Patrick as a person, not as a ‘friend’ or ‘enemy’, and I think you all might have reasons of your own to react the ways you do.
>
> it does hurt my feelings though, to be what feels to me misunderstood like this.
> M
Margaret – I am sorry I have hurt you. I know how well intentioned and kind you are. This is a wonderful thing – something from you to be cherished.
It is therefore hard to watch Patrick trash you (& us) again and again.
To me – Your Hope for him to change – to see reality etc. is just that – your hope, not his at all.
Hi Margaret. I thought your comments were a good attempt to set things straight and the ‘therapist’ in us likes to clarify things and make sense of our interactions that appear at first muddled. You came from a point of strength in order to clarify. I think that has always been your way here. As with watching an adept snake handler we watch with trepidation for the next bite. You are a good person who sees the best in people. Take care.
S
My experience with people who only half care about me always ends in pain for me–though I have tried, just my way– so know the feeling of trying to help. It must be ingrained in us.
It can also be the mark of someone who has developed the capacity to care for the pain of others.
That strikes me as being more evolved than the forgiveness of religious dogma.
I continue to interact with narcissistic friends, fewer and less often, and am aware of what I can expect. .
Yes David, narcissists are a breed unto their own. There are many videos on the internet on how to cope with one, because they can really do a number on you. Especially if they are part of the family or U have had a relationship with them.
As for: “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”, I think it can also: “give you ulcers.”
Recognizing them and if they are, ” friends, ” to the best of their ability, just don’t expect to get much, or anything, back. Knowing what’s going on has brought me great freedom;
> Donal,
> I really admire how you are able to comnine studying and a career, while doing very well at both of them.
> far out as they’d say back in the seventies.
> M
> I seem to be really affected by feeling criticized on a moment I expected people to appreciate calm had returned and things had more or less ended in what to me feels like something consturctive, at least potentially so.
> can’t force the horse to drink etc…
>
> it is disappointing on a moment when I actually felt good about myself to suddenly be confronted with what feels like the opposite of support.
> oh well I guess, coloured glasses, my conscience is quite clear about this one, and I guess I do have a past as well, but I really thought people would know me better and well, can’t help but feeling this like a negative kind of thing..
>
> luckily have a session later on to explore what bugs me.
>
> being misinterpreted I think.
> M
Margaret – not that you need my kind of ‘support’ but for what’s it’s worth (next to nothing as I like to say) to me you have the original ‘spirit’ of primal in that you believe in exploring and going all the way through something. Also with the assumption the other person who might even be ‘fighting’ with is basically OK and means well in their own way. To me at least that was big aspect of primal as I absorbed and understood it. My experience for what it’s worth don’t need to repeat how it’s worth next to nothing is this ‘spirit’ is NOT shared by a lot of people including people here. In fact quite the opposite sometimes shockingly so. That’s why to me in so many ways primal to quote Janov himself even if he did not mean it quite that way has ‘become a neurosis within a neurosis’ That’s a tricky one try punching your way out of that paper bag………………I have and it’s hard
So from my point of view there is no need to get down on yourself to me you embody the spirit of primal way more here than your ‘critics’ who are quite well imbued with all the ‘modern’ mindset of cutting people off, ignoring, not struggling blah blah blah…………..they have their words for it but to use Fiona’s word is mostly a from of ‘segregation’……………….some of them have become very good at it and use ‘primal’ very effectively to do so……………..again to come back to the same conceit ‘a neurosis within a neurosis’……………..as the man himself says I was going to say ‘the man above’ but that’s how we talked as kids about God Janov is not God but he is smart………….and as I say I am sure he has seen a lot of that including probably in himself if he cares to notice………………..
Also Margaret I did call you a ‘fucking liar’ but well that is just a combination of you maybe not wording something quite exactly and me over reacting. But it’s fine now I understand now what you meant and were referring to it’s over. Not a problem. Meanwhile people who are not even involved hold onto stuff like I called you a ‘f…. liar’ And that’s sadly typical of some maybe a lot of primallers…………….isolate and hold onto one version – their version of things. :Like I said before the average Irish person can ‘problem solve’ so effectively and fast compared to some of these dinosaurs.. Sorry again I have to say it “a neurosis within a neurosis”
> Patrick,
> what you say does mean something to me. the first paragraph.
> for what follows i see it more like everyone reacts from his own set of feelings interpreting my motives through those glasses.
>
> and I even know thy might have had a point in the past, when i did have certin patterns, which might stilll occurr even in some situations, but to me they don’t apply this time.
>
> when you called me a liar, I did not like the way you expressed that adding some meanness to it, but at the same time I felt how hurt you were.
>
> truth is to me all what can really guide us to discern what is real and what is not.
> sometimes feedback can be extremely useful as well, but in this case I do feel hurt by what was said to me as it feels like noone sees my true self and how well I mean.
>
> I even feel like crying a bit now, something seems to have gone wrong with the schedulig of my session,I should be talking to Gretchen right now.
>
> I wish people would give other people the benefit of the doubt more often, or ask in case of wondering instead of comoing up with what feels like a judgment.
>
> it is more than just this blog interaction,I am sure, there are other ways in which i feel very misunderstood and hurt without having a fair chance to work things out.
>
> I feel I deserve better, which basically is a good thing, even though some of the hurt remains and will make me be less trustful for a while at least.
> hope you doublecheck your reactions the next time and maybe just ask as well in case of doubt?
> M
Margaret: I am inclined to agree with both Leslie and Larry, with respoect to you and Patrick … but then I am obviously biased.
All this reminded me of when I was little and one incident when after a nightmare I went into my parents bedroom and told my mammy I was frightened. She put her arms arond me me pulled me into bed next to her. My fathers retort “Oh! my god”: and turned away from my mother who in turn turned to him with her back to me. But even with her back to me that felt so safe. It didn’t occur to me me, but something must have registered. As I see that now … me having a problem (nightmare) was a bigger problem to my father than was my terror … but I obviously had no-one else to turn to other than my parents. I did have my mammy… more or less … but obviously not my daddy.
In the present I get a similar reaction from time to time with Jim … Did I partner up with a symbolic daddy ???? I guess I did.
Jack, What you wrote here about who you could turn to has had me thinking. I really don’t recall having anyone to turn to in this way.My mother was a cause of anxiety and my father was unhelpful andunaware, although I could feel comfortable being with him. But therewas no one for me to go to with anxiety and fear, I was on my own withthat. But being on my own was actually the cause of the anxiety and fear to begin withis what I find. Phil
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:35:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Yep!!! and to quote … again “There’s the calamity that makes so long life … when he might his quietus make make with a bare bodkin …”
Where to start ???? My only hope is that eventually Primal Theory will become the universal Psychological theory.
It’s just that the fuck-up placed on us; we inadvertently pass on to our kids. And that for sure, to me, is the ultimate CALAMITY. So complex … yet it could/should be otherwise … if ONLY.
> I notice now, after just having had my session anyway, that what also gets triggered for me is something to do with shame.
> like I should be ashamed for needing or something, like what happened in various ways as a child.
> disapproved for needing/wanting something.
>
> there is a lot still to explore, all to do with not feeling understood, disapproved of, fear and loneliness.
>
> on a rational level Jack, I don’t immediately see how your story links in to mine here, but on some feeling level it does anyway, the need to be accepted with fear and need and everything included, and to be given some comfort/support/safety/sympathy.
> M
Margaret: It was not intended for it to be a parallel situation. It was; from the comments to you and your response, REMINDED me of the incident. Not sure I know why … it just did. I mentioned it merely to state on the blog something that happened to me … and to relate how Jim re-acts in a similar manner.
Just before writing this I had a problem because my contact lens slipped and if I am not able to rectify it, I ask Jim to help me locate it and with a suction pad help to pull it out. It was not happening for some reason or another, and I tried to make a suggestion to Jim and his retort was:- “Shut the fuck up”, then walked off It really is a parallel situation to my dad.
In hindsight I know why my dad got irritated with his kids. They were the only ones he could ‘let off old feelings’ from HIS childhood. The same as I see it with Jim, but from time to time I get very upset that he is seemingly in an angry mood with me, when it’s my guess that it is with somethings else. The sad part is that we are not permitted to discuss it. That brings on more problems for Jim with what I consider to be his rising feelings. C’est la vie. It’s a choice I make … I need to know that. It doesn’t prevent my irritation with him, but as I have said. It is my feeling and belongs only to me So I am compelled to own it.
To me it feels hopeless concerning Patrick as far as getting him tosee the benefits of exploring here or at the retreat, in therapy etc, so I have givenup whatever efforts I was making. I shouldn’t have been doing that to begin with. He has to see for himself and has his “own way” in any case. Phil Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:58:54 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
At times Phil you seem so ‘blind’ to me. So you think you are ‘exploring’ here but I am not? You are somehow in a ‘better’ place or something so you might ‘reach out’ to me………….but now you realize it’s useless! That’s pretty condescending do I judge if you are or are not ‘worth’ reaching out to?. Doesn’t all that get pretty absurd. we are just 2 people here I don’t think we need to get into who is ‘worth’ reaching out to etc etc. Though I notice you are not the only one to question Margaret why she thinks I might be ‘worth’ talking to or ‘reaching out’ to. Very condescending and a bit typical of a group who somehow feel they have some esoteric knowledge.about things. To me this is all nonsense and Margaret at least has good instincts and intentions about her. All this questioning of her just missed the point IMHO.
BTW Margaret I thought of another aspect of this. If you proceed on the assumption the other person has good intentions………………that means also you do as you judge other people according to what you feel about yourself. Do people who write off other people or think other people are not ‘worth’ reaching out to…………..I wonder how much worth they really feel about themselves. They just judge other people to be not ‘worth’ it as we have seen a parade of people do here. I am NOT impressed…………..
Patrick, To be trying over and over is to be acting out an old feeling on my part. So that’s why I say I give up, and it does feel hopeless. Nothing to do with your being “worth” reaching. I just don’t want to be locked in some continual pattern here. That isn’t worthwhile for me. Phil
Patrick, I don’t want to be arguing or struggling over the same stuff continually (and I do do that at times), that’s what I’m talking about and what I’m better off avoiding. Phil
Philip Banco wrote:
Patrick, To be trying over and over is to be acting out an old feeling on my part. So that’s why I say I give up, and it does feel hopeless. Nothing to do with your being “worth” reaching. I just don’t want to be locked in some continual pattern here. That isn’t worthwhile for me. Phil
I would say it’s a bit strong stating that Margaret appeases Patrick…….from what I can see she tries to reach out to him, but does express her reactions and feelings as she needs. I do not see it as unhealthy. Then again I have only been on the blog for spurts so may have missed something.
However, I have seen their interactions over several years: It seems that when Margaret has deal with her own feelings regarding Patrick, she makes genuine efforts to reach out to him.
Donal
I do not have any reactions to Patrick at this point though have in the past episodically. I think some of his observations about primal have validity, and there is a certain amount of healthy skepticism. It is good to question aspects of therapy, even if overall you believe it works, which I do. For example , the last group of each retreat: let’s face it, there is a lot of overinflated statements and wild promises being made there (I want to thank my therapist, I want to thank my buddy, myself and my buddy are going to stay in touch, you’re all a bunch of assholes I am leaving therapy, followed by grand exist…..etc., etc,). Even the best things in life have apsects of bullshit,,,,,,,Patrick reminds us of that fact.
Donal.
Donal: As I see it there are several issues going on here and the first is Margaret’s feeling that Patrick is worth reaching out to. I am not sure, how or why this is, and so far, Margaret has not stated why she feels he’s worth her effort.
The next issue, again just me, is:- What constitute “Struggle” and at what point does one give up on it. I struggle with that very “struggle”.
The final issue, again, just me, is the manner in which Patrick expresses what is going on with him. I could well be wrong, but Patrick seemingly, does not take ownership of his feeling. I contend (that ‘dirty’ word again), he feels wronged and his manner of dealing with it is to lash out. What I feel is sad for Patrick is that is seems not to resolve anything for him, and, worse, many resent and dislike him for it. AND he defends his stance to the bitter end.
I don’t see Patrick leaving the blog as I feel he has no-where else to go. Of course, all this in definitely MY bias.
Despite my most fervent and genuine hopes many things have not resolved for me, from in therapy and post therapy feeling. My, “resolve, ” my conclusion has had to be for me that whatever is, is.
While I had appreciation that primal process/theory is dynamic, but had no way of knowing, except by continuing to read Dr. Janov’s publications as released, how their thinking and therapeutic approach has changed, and even then that is somewhat guarded.
I keep searching for any writings coming from Vivian, Barry and Gretchen, to get an idea how the PI has changed 30 years on. But have not found any, despite the plethora of experience they must have gained. There used to be some of that in the old Primal Newsletter.
That would be invaluable to me now as I am not as influenced by my old tendency to be influenced by, and inadvertently applying the information to my path.
David: I don’t quite see it the same way, I feel you do. The therapy for me was to encourage me into the ‘feeling zone’ as best I could to stay there and stop as best I knew how, to be constantly figuring out the “Why’s” of life. I have not achieved the totality of that, and chances I won’t for the rest of my life since, having been a neurotic the damage was done and I am left with the struggle against the “struggle”. Hopefully, to be a defenseless as I am able. That for me is the best it will ever be. There is, as I see it, no end game to therapy.
Whilst I too have a lot of respect for the way the therapy has progressed it is ONLY by the means with which the therapists GUIDE PATIENTS. The outcome for patients, remain more or less the same. Gretchen has said on more than a couple of occasions that she is jealous, that in her days as a patient there were no retreats. I am so pleased that for me there was. It was truly a great way to have the “mirror put up to me”. Group can do some of that but, not in as expedient a way … for me at least.
Though I did initially, like you, hope that I could be a therapist, but after one therapist told me that my name had been brought up to go into orientation it was ultimately decided that I was not ready … at that time. In hindsight I am pleased it didn’t happen, as, I see it, is an ongoing battle for the therapist discussing patients and discussing how best to deal with them. I feel I was way too old at 48 to get a master degree in psychology and then an indefinite internship.
Unlike some have expressed here, I do find that getting into feelings on my own is very convenient, though it surely is an advantage to have a neutral person (therapist and/or buddy) listening to me. I also don’t see therapist’s has having reached a better point. They, I feel, still battle their demons, luckily, they have one another.
My purpose was never to become a therapist. I just wanted to be relieved of the damage that had been done to me. To not struggle for love and acceptance with people who were never going to give it. To stop being a victim.
MY, ” conclusion,” I refer to, is that whatever I end up accessing, whatever resolve occurs, is, the “is”, the reality, of what will be; that I have come to accept. There is no alternative. I have no agenda, no expectations; no more comparing me to anyone else in terms of progress.
Jack, What is your email address? You have posted it repeatedly on this blog but i can not find it now, I am actually wanting to repl directly your post in early september…about aging.
David: My Email address is:- jackwaddington@yahoo.com. As far as I am concerned you can comment on here about the “on growing old” post of mine.
However I am a little disturbed since I have been responding to “David” with e-copies of my book. Now I wonder was I sending them to you ‘David Hardy’?
Jack, that wasn’t my post. I replied to it, too, and the writer was named, ” Anonymous.” I didn’t know who the writer was addressing, so dashed off my email, too. I assumed the writer was speaking to both of us, and I have no idea what was being referred to as to how our interpretation of how PI works differed, because that is bang on with my understanding; and in fewer words, to Anonymous’s credit. Oh, Gawd, Jack, you don’t think the social anarchist group, ” ANONYMOUS,” has crashed our blog. Hell I’m a bloody physically peaceful but mouthy anarchist. Maybe they’ll recruit me and give me a new career. More likely our fed government wanting to schedule disappearing me… hah
I have received your books JACK. david. and you’re on my contact list. If you have retained any of my emails, Anonymous’s font is different and also how I type my name is not the same. time will tell if we’re being screwed with. Oh well I have a spam filter and a security program the envy of the CIA…..Actually I remember a while back a newbie saying, ” she, ” I think, was not comfortable identifying self, yet.
Dear Anonymous,…. I jest; ….. that’s how I understand the therapy, too. were you asking Jack or me for an email address ? I’m dvddoodle99@eastlink.ca; daveydoodle is my youngest daughter’s pet name for me; that was taken; so were dvddoodle’s up to 98; whoda thunk ??? david
Why does anyone need to have Margaret explain herself ? Not to explain herself for her, but perhaps it has to do with her evolution, she has achieved that level of growth. That would be something to be congratulated wouldn’t it ??
One point I would like to add, for those not in the know … was at a retreat when you were designated my “Secret Santa”
At the end of the week I was given this tiny mug with a name on it along with a poem. It was hilarious. You had obviously taken a great deal of thought in creating it, It read:-
Poem to a Jack
A wrack of Christmas ornaments,
with names from Adam to Zack
all the Williams, James & Johnathons,
even Jeremy, but no Jack,
Oh there was a peg, a place
a space for Jack,
But all the Jack’s were gone,
so I did the next best thing,
and got you a “Dick”
Your pen pal
I have shown it to many and to this day hangs on my wall over my bed. It still brings me to laughter reading it
David: Sorry if that off-endz your soul (as-soul) So here’s my penance:-
Oh! Hail thee mighty one Abagails. I have sinned in thy name and I promise I WILL do it again. Ab-ag-ai-ls hail thee; and forgive my sin-full-dress… “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”. … “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”…. “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”. I turned left and saw only ab-normal … or was it ab-omination … maybe ab-cess. Fuck … what a mess I am in.
Thanks, Jack, I remember it well! Indeed, questing about for a gift, I looked for your name on a rack of mugs, there were none, and inspiration struck — better than finding a “Jack” would have been. A (non-primal) friend, with me at the time, thought it was a risky choice, but I thought I had a pretty good idea of your sense of humor, and was so glad it was true. I have laughed myself, more than once, thinking about it over the years. Especially because in school, I was never good at poetry, and yet, given the right inspiration, I did do a good job.
Nearly 30 years later I still trust Dr. Bernfield with my life. He would never do or say anything that is not in my best interests. I know I am welcome to return to therapy.
I was stupid not to keep in touch with a couple of people like Londoner, Ray R, who took the trouble to suss out my address and wrote me after I came home.
I visited with a friend, former beloved educator, psychologist, and wicked Jazz guitarist, who is dying. His wicked sense of humour has a bent of anger to it these days. He was telling me how a neighbour, a guy I also know had been by to borrow a mower. He had ,” nursed, ” this fellow through alcoholism recovery, and his marriage collapse. The fellow had been on his doorstep 7 AM every day for a prop up and often for a night time tuck in for more than a year. So today my friend decided he’d tell him what was happening in his world, that he had weeks to live and was in intractable pain as, “… buddy stood with his hand on the door knob trying to beak eye contact and escape.” My friend began laughing uncontrollably as he told me, “… buddy’s response, “, which was , ” huh, Man the Red Sox are sure in a slump, eh/??” ” How fucked up is that?” he said.
Otto I always read you, and don’t know how to be of help. And maybe that is not what you want. But I hear your pain. The biggest bit of support for you that I read was when your dog died.
This whole thing about ‘owning’ a feeling is very valid I think……………….but my problem a bit about owning a feeling about PT itself is well first off I am SUPPOSED to realize it’s all my ‘issue’ blah blah blah so that does not always feel right and secondly it is a way to ALWAYS let them off the hook! It’s set up like that!
And that has been and is a major problem with the place and the way it has always been done. Remember the ‘roots’ of primal are very like the EST days of all you can do is ‘express your feeling” it is very clear it will have NO effect on the organization or the people that run it.
I can still remember it was even before I came here so around 1974 on TV an EST meeting and some guy gets up and basically says the EST people and organization are full of shit. And a ‘voice’ from a loud speaker in a very calm tone says “thanks for your intput” it was so weird and so clear the organization did not give a fuck.
And basically what I felt during the suicides and Dr Holden’s ‘nervous breakdown’ it was still always a case of “what does it mean to you” So owing a feeling is good b but can it be done when first of all it is clear that is your only option and secondly do you ‘trust’ an organization that is that opaque and always just reflect back on you whatever you. The answer for me was NO
People might think me arrogant for saying I have found my own way……………….the way I see it I really didn’t have a choice. I have felt very ‘helped’ bv the likes of Dr Kruse and I would also say by this blog as strange as that may seem to some people. It gave me a chance to say even if later than ideally some of my problems and objections. And Gretchen is probably very tired of this but I credit her big time for that……………………if I was depending on Janov NO……………I could write so long as it was along the theme of how great he is/was. How lame is that and it is like that to this day with him……………….
BTW ‘comparing’ even now Dr Kruse with the PI…………..I find no ‘separation’ or ‘mystique’ about him maybe it’s hard for me to really ‘trust’ people but I CAN and I DO when they feel ‘safe’ to me……………with primal there is a lot of ‘distancing’ I understand part of this is the psycho-analytic tradition………………..also incidentally a ‘tradition’ I am not too crazy about…………..pretty ‘cold’ and ‘calculating’ not much ‘warmth’ there and a kind of psychologically a poor world……………
Patrick: this is not meant by way of a poke at you, but to suggest, as I see it, you look at your words here. You say “‘owning’ a feeling is very valid I think………………. ” why do you ONLY think, isn’t it obvious? You now continue with:- “but my problem a bit about owning a feeling about PT itself is well first off…..” So far, you seem to be acknowledging that this is merely YOUR FEELING. That’s fair enough, but now you continue with “I am SUPPOSED to realize it’s all my ‘issue’ blah blah blah ” WELL !!!! ISN’T IT????
You suggesting that it “does not feel right”, is not to say that IT IS RIGHT. My take is that you leave it just where it is … “your feeling” … no-one else’s.
If on the other hand, if you are desirous to know how the Primal Institutes inner working operates; that is a whole other matter and their concern. Not, in my view, the patients or anyone else. I hope this does not rankle you.
Basically it DOES ‘rankle’ that is. You are not my ‘teacher’ you don’t need to ‘grade’ my lessons/papers, you sing your repetitive un-musical tune all day long. “Think” is ONLY a word, no need to get hung up on it. To me you feel like some old hateful preacher who is constantly beating and pounding on my head. You do not mean me well so why do you bother? Your intentions are not pure or good, you say yourself it is ‘perverted’ and it is. I have had way too much of preachers like you. You have nothing to show me or nothing to tell me. You said if you saw me on the other side of the street you would keep on walking. I have accepted that so KEEP on walking then……………the further away from me the better. You want it both ways and more you ‘ignore’ me but you fuck with me you say I am a piece of shit but you still fuck with me. You said Jim brow beats YOU well you brow beat ME. I don’t like you you are a wizened devil who constantly self promotes himself. I am ‘happy’ to write on here and ideally have nothing to do with you.
You are not my teacher
You are not my preacher
‘Grade’ somebody else’s papers. I have NOTHING to learn from you and nothing to get from you. Practice your PR moves on somebody else PLEASE
Hey David, I’m glad you are here with us on the blog. You joined us on the comment page but if you go to the home page you will see many articles by Barry and I that you can read. Gretchen
Gretchen,
Yes, there are people who are genuinely grateful.I was going with my impulses in my comment, trying to see if it would get somewhere. I have reactions to the end of retreats. One aspect of this is that I often feel angry and disconnected when people are just plain nice to each other. Unless I happen to feel connected to that myself or feel included somehow, but that is rare.
I just have an aversion to simple niceness between people, and I am also cynical and suspicious of it, resolving to myself that people are being phony. self-serving or just choosing to believe something more comfortable than hard reality. You comment and that smiley face icon at the end is the type of thing that often produces those types of reactions in me. Not this time so much, for some reason.
Donal.
Patrick,
I googled EST as I was not familiar with it: sounds like it was a misguided crock of crap. Forcing people to be themselves and abandon their defenses. Crude methodology with ridiculously short time frames,
No wonder if fizzled out in the 80s.
You’re right, the process of recognizing it is your issue and owning the feeling can be tedious and annoying. It often feels very cognitive to me. However, I do have cognitive defenses and did dabble in CBT before I went to the Insititute. The CBT therapist saw me for 8 weeks, then asked me seriously if I thought I had received enough therapy…..jesus.
Anyway,
I would say if Dr. Kruse’s program gives you all those things you mentioned, nobody can really argue with that. you seem fulfilled in certain ways by it.
Donal.
Donal: I did the EST training when it first came to London and at the time, before my Primal days, was impressed. Maybe for me it was a forerunner to Primal Therapy, but I am under the impression that Jack Solomans (alias Werner Herhard) went to see Art Janov. Not sure if and what took place on their meeting.
I did see it as a way at looking at life and mysef in it. Many found it to be way too harsh, but I found it did attack my defenses, and was able to absorb much of it.
I suppose in all, this is an aspect of me, in that in my 20’s, got involved in a very emtional method of voice production, later I got involved in The Alexander technique and then EST and followed by Primal Therapy.
Does this suggest that I am somewhat fanatical, or could it be that I was always a radical searcher. I’ll leave it for others to decide what I am, in terms of the outside world seeing me.
To change the subject a bit (LOL)I heard this song on the radio to day and I realized I didn’t know who this was but what I did know was………………it was in the soundtrack of “Goodfellas” and was so effective at conveying the world of the protagonist as it was falling apart, the intense fear and paranoia and a helicopter hovering menacingly overhead. It seems to be one of the brilliant uses of a song in a movie. Anyway now I have found out who it is does anyone know (or care)? Guru where are you? Are you ok? Who is this? It’s been a while I was reminded of you as you like movies. Goodfellas to me was a brilliant movie and this mood especially.Pity there is not the actual clip of the movie but this is about all I could find
Nilsson? I was into his music in the 70’s. I thought that because he hang out with John Lennon that he was also writing about PT. I was very much a Pt wannabe back then, but did not have the moves to get there until 1985. I used to listen to Nilsson and Lennon, I guess they played on the radio a lot. I remember this song, but I did not know it was Nilsson. Maybe they played it less on the radio. Maybe I was too loaded. Thanks for posting the song. I hate fucking gangsters though. Now I go see what the lyrics are. And find other Nilsson that meant more to me at the time.
Otto – this is a longer version of the same song…………..I thought the shots of all the pop culture heroes pretty cool. I could recognize a lot of them you probably more I imagine.
Gerry Rafferty – Right Down the Line. something else that they used to play on the radio at the time, and i liked it. But now I feel like the arthritic old man that i used to work for in the 70’s, briefly. he took advantage of my good nature, and my job was to wipe his butt, drive him to the physical therapist, and watch Merv Griffin while getting drunk on Burgundy wine. We drove to the doctor and they still played that 30’s or 40’s music on KOST or some other channel. That music has pretty much disappeared from the radio, except for Sirius. I didnt like it all that much. But now I am the old man playing old music.
Horrible horrible years. Getting out of high school, an abrupt break with everything I knew, not seeing the people that I saw everyday for years. Riding my bike to college and not knowing what the fuck I was doing. Getting strung out on amphetamines and LSD. Moving out of my family house with another idiot, leaving my grandma pissed off at me. Drinking drinking drinking. My best friend getting murdered in 73 so I joined the Navy to get away from grief and other people taking advantage of me. Leaving the navy to get PT, but I didn’t until 10 years later.
Otto remains dead. Brought his ashes home today, while taking another sick pet to the vet. I remain mostly numb. Not comfortably though. I hate this ending, nothing good about it.
Patrick, Psychoanalyst’s and Primal therapists are actually worlds apart especially in regard to what you describe as ” distancing” .. Ask an analyst about his life, past or present, and you are likely to get a blank stare or a question about the meaning of your question. Ask a Primal therapist that same question and you may have to beg them to stop talking an hour later. Our approach , our philosophy, when it comes to transference or counter transference are in fact completely different animals. I think there has been a great deal written on this subject. I also wondered about your comments that you felt the blog was helping you. I wondered how exactly? Gretchen
> wow, about 50 more comments to catch up on this morning, have read some so far and already want to say thanks David, Leslie, Sylvia, and you too Patrick, for saying those things, as I feel very frail really and am starting to cry right now.M
Gretchen,
I appreciate your questions: they cut right to the heart of the issue. I always felt apart in my family like the other four members were connected. This lead to feelings of anxiety and panic (kind of) and I reacted to these feelings by trying to get involved in some way by saying something, interjecting, whatever, However, this often led to reactions of annoyance from my parents and comments telling ,me that what I was saying was stupid,wrong, etc.
The same feelings are there now. When two other people and myself are connecting with each other at work, for example, and the conversation develops so that the other two are really just talking to each other, I have a reaction. I feel isolated and there is fear: it has that old life-threatening feel about it, like my mother is ignoring me and I need her to pay attention.
I am more aware of it and try not to interject into conversations in reaction to these feelings. Not always successful, but I try to do things differently to get into the feelings more.
I see another facet of my life experience. I feel embarrassed, like begging for a crumb. Like how stupid am I to be standing here pretending to be part of this. Like mom said nobody wanted me. I get really pissed off in acting scenes at the actor who plays that role. Also I use to love it when I and # 2 had put another # 3 person in that position. Only in the past few months have I been able to watch, laugh, get it, ” Big Bang Theory.” I was so pissed off by the stupidity, why anyone would want to be with those fuckheads, who would want to be friends with anyone like that.
Gretchen,
One more thing. Mark the therapist made a pointed comment to me once that was very revealing. I was talking of how my boss got hit on her way home, as someone broke the red light, She was a bit sore for a while, but ended up being OK. She told me that the person who hot her was just a kid and made a mistake, I told Mark that I was in awe of how sympathetic she was and that she bore no malice and was not angry at the kid. Mark told me that generosity was not an aspect of my family growing up. It always stuck with me: my family were not generous in spriirt. A lot of the time my needs and feelings were not understood at all. Like I was describing above, my parents took my words literally and dismissed them as irritatingly out of context. However, they did not see a child who was feeling isolated and trying to feel connected.
Donal
In response to your comment Gretchen; I would like to add something that happened to me when after the first six months, my starting groups was called in, along with all the therapist; with respect to our progress so far. I was expecting that I was going to get a report card on MY progress. I was shocked and somewhat bewildered for some minutes when we each asked to say HOW WE EACH FELT ABOUT OUR PROGRESS IN THERAPY … SO FAR.
“Oh!” my re-action was … “you’re not going to tell me” … instead I will be telling you. That was contrary to everything I had ever known in the past. Slowly it dawned on me … now I remember Janov had said in his books … to the effect ‘we patients were the experts on ourselves’.
I do see that our expectations of what the therapy is about before getting into it … is dependent upon how we will progress in the therapy. It is here at this point, I feel Primal Therapy is worlds apart from all other psycho therapies. I would include almost all other forms of therapy also, which includes, philosophical, medical (dietary and excise), pharmacology, massage and physical therapies.
Primal therapy is NOT done to us. We do it unto ourselves … with the guidance of a Primal therapist.
To the uninitiated, that, I feel, is where the greatest misunderstanding of this therapy lies.
Jack,
Also, sometimes it is easy to blame the therapy when we get busted in group (especially at the beginning, when we are new) or we end up feeling bad in therapy in ways we did not want/expect. I find it good to remember that the therapy is simply bringing to the forefront all the feelings that we can keep down in the way we live our lives outside of therapy. Therapy does not generate any feelings.
I have seen people in group who have an expectation that they will feel something and the group will support them. (this has happened to me too, of course: as you witnessed on a couple of retreats) Then people start reacting in ways we do not expect, then we end up feeling bad in some way we did not expect. I have learned that these situations are good: you end up spontaneously in a feeling you did not see coming. Also, you get stirred up in other ways, which leads to more feeling.
Donal
I only ever spoke twice in Big Group. The first time what I needed to say was how much I wanted to belong, have some one like me, and how it hurt to not be getting that. Instead my bullshit words, was, and, although a true incident, I told of how at the volley ball beach I drew a circle around myself in the sand as a way to protect me. (It was my loneliness.)
The silent reaction I got ,” felt,” made me wish I could dig a hole in the floor and disappear, stupid, stupid, stupid, I felt, my worst fear came true, acknowledgement that no one cared that I existed. For a kid from the sticks LA was perfect for getting nothing, being invisible.
Nice song Donal.Gretchen asked me a few provocative questions but I’ll get to it but rather go on and on right now I was reminded by Jack talking about the 6 month follow up where we looked at an actual video of ourselves talking when we arrived in LA and at least the way I understood it so we could see our ‘progress’ (hopefully) or the therapist could comment etc.
ALL I remember and I mention ‘all’ as it says something about how ‘self centered’ I am in that say now I remember nothing about any of the others though I can list even now most of their names and remember them quite vividly for the most part. Anyway that said all I remember about myself is how “Irish’ my accent was………………and this was NOT a ‘positive’. I felt I sounded like some country bumpkin but ‘worse’ somehow like there was deep shame there and ‘inferiority’ too. Like some ignorant and worse ‘un-cool’ type of person.not hip not all the things I wanted to be and even sometimes maybe imagined myself to be only to see the actual video and it’s like nah this is not working.
I said to them ‘my God I sound so irish” and the therapist said but you ARE Irish.And I go “I know” I think I got into what i am saying now a LITTLE bit but only a little. Like ‘shame’ in general it is hard to bring it into the open. I read somewhere recently where the person was saying people who suffer from shame are typically ashamed of that even. Kind of vicious circle that it can be hard to escape.He was writing in relation to the schism between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church who did not believe in ‘original sin” The Catholic Church I knew growing up did very much believe in it and I somehow connect the ‘shame’ I felt with that………the feeling I am ‘irredeemably’ bad or doomed or something not good………………….
Speaking about being ‘hip’ or ‘cool’ this is the kind of thing I might imagine in my ‘fantasy self’ no Irish accents there English all the way…………….Mick Jagger is a Leo also I am a natural attention seeker even if most of the attention I get is ‘bad’ in show business they say no publicity is bad publicity I don’t know about that one……………..
Patrick,
Glad you brought this up…….one of those “thank fuck I’m not the only one who has those feelings” moment.
I have always been conscious of my Irishness, specifically I felt inferior. When I was young I wished I was English I thought I would feel better. I remember fantasizing about being in a band like the Stones: it works much better when I think of myself with an English accent. I just could not take it seriously being in a famous band of Irish guys, I actually compromised and imagined myself as an English person who lived part of his childhood in Ireland, and had English parents, so still had an English accent (like Adam Clayton).
I have also done a similar thing with imagining myself as an American actor/rockstar.
I still feel we are inferior. That countries like England, the US, Germany, France are more sophisticated and developed on a personal and societal level. A large part of this is my feeling of Ireland lacking structure or consistency.
Of course, this is just me generalizing the experience of my family to the country I grew up in.
This came up in my session with Barry the other day in which he pointed out that my childhood family lacked structure. He qualified this by stating there was plenty of unhealthy structure, but not the good kind of structure a child needs.
Donal
Donal – yes it is amazing how ‘deep’ that goes. I mean it is such a powerful ‘feeling’ it can color everything.
Recently I have been ‘getting in touch’ with the old Irish ‘spirit’ and well……………..I think it is truly wonderful. You know the way people talk about ‘indigenous’ peoples and how close to nature they are and the kind of wisdom they had. Well it seems to me more and more the Irish were/are ‘indigenous’. We had all that but then it was taken away from us, we were made to feel ‘ashamed’ we looked to England especially and Europe too but it’s like we are looking for something we have lost already and lost very close to us………..so close we cannot see it and we race around the world trying to find what we lost at home.
I am pretty sure I will ‘retire’ in Ireland and part of it is that………………I have spent my life running away and seeing the magic elsewhere, but it was always out of reach. Now I accept more and more I lost it all so close to me and now I feel like even physically moving close to it and also being open to all I have lost. I got a flavor of it last Summer and I have a good relationship with my brother so I believe I can make it work. I am under no illusions that ‘I can go home again’…………home was lost to me a long time ago but still there is something very appealing about it even if only it means I can go there and ‘let down’ let it all go, how hurt and scared and all the rest of it I was.
Patrick,
You are very realistic about moving back to Ireland, and all that it will entail. I know some who have moved back after a decade or two over here, and had unrealistic expectations. I think many, like myself, did not live much in Ireland as an adult. So, they had the expectation that they were moving back in time, to the carefree days of childhood. Of course, when you have grown=up responsibilities they follow you every where.
You are talking about this at a deeper level of course, from the point of view of someone who has accepted they lost a lot in childhood. It would be easy for people like me and you to assume we can get what we lost by going back home, Of course, it is not possible. I accept that more now. At one point about 15 years ago I had this panicky set of feelings and a compulsion to move back to Ireland before I got too much older than I was then. I ended up staying and am glad I did not react to these feelings by moving back: it would have been a mistake. Looking back, I thought I could salvage something I never got growing up: a rich and carefree childhood.
Donal
The exchange between you and Patrick is so rich, I don’t want to water it down, so to speak with a diverting comment. My maternal grandfather was one of the 1867 Irish famine children. Whoever took them in was , ” what ethnic group they became.” So we have French Acadian O’Sullivans, for example. My grandfather was taken in by a German family and he took their surname, so the records say he is German. I don’t even know his Irish name, My uncles born here, both sounded like they just got off the boat, yet a man who sailed with my grandfather told me, ” Charlie ,” had no accent, and told him he came from County Cork, so he might even have been of French ancestry. Then I learn that my fathers, father was not his biological father; that he was a Mi kmaq Indian. Sure enough a search shows that my wonderful grandfather married my grandmother, his cousin, years after my father’s birth and census shows he did not even live with them until my father was 5 or so. My only known heritage was, “poverty.” I belong, ” Nowhere.” I look white, but have an Indian soul. I am involved with the Mi kmaq, community, started to learn a little language and traditions, but do not feel I can speak about, “our people,” at gatherings even though many there have less Indian than me in their makeup. Even if they don’t look any more Indian than I do, they were born on Reserve or can say for certain who a Mi kmaq relative was. I have no claim of heritage. My white birth brothers didn’t want me. So, I’m pretty much fucked as to belonging anywhere to any ethnicity, although Mi kmaq who got to know , “me,” welcome me. It’s not the same.
I apologize again for cutting in on this nourishing exchange between you and Patrick.
Donal – you might find this ‘story’ interesting and you might be the the only one who can really appreciate it.
I was only 14 y.o. but was already playing goal keeper for our school’s under 16 team. Anyway that is not important except only to say I already felt in over my head. This is Gaelic Football not soccer. I am already imbued with how ‘cool soccer is, it’s “English” after all. I am a total fan of all the soccer stars of the day Georgie Best,(who is Irish but Northern Irish so ‘actually’; British) Bobby Charlton etc etc. So though I am a playing goalkeeper in a Gaelic team I have this fantasy life as a soccer player.
We are playing in Killarney a big stadium can hold up to 50,000 people just a few hundred though actually there but in fantasy well the sky is the limit. Also Killarney is where the senior football team play the crossbar IS high 8′ maybe I am what 5’6″ or something (making excuses here). Early in the game the ball is lofted in to my goal near the cross bar. I flick it over the bar giving up a point. As you know in soccer that would be just a corner. So I score a point for the other team in Gaelic the actual game we are playing but in my fantasy life it is ‘only’ a corner. I knew all this of course but also I did it in a kind of provocative way I would say. Like not ‘shy’ about no like I AM a soccer goalie.
BTW the referee way this legendary Kerry goal keeper Johnny Culloty was his name. I knew who he was and all the tradition he embodied. So…………next time down the ball comes into me I gather it and then flop on the ground holding onto the ball. Again a soccer move, a soccer goalie can do that but NOT a Gaelic keeper. He is treated pretty much like any other player and can be ‘shouldered’ and tackled etc. I think at this point Johnny had enough. He awarded a penalty to the other team and I felt very strongly I had pissed him off at a deep level. Incidentally the penalty kick crashed off the goal post to safety without me knowing anything about it. I think I had already learned my lesson though…………..I was tempted to sprawl across the goal in some kind of demented acting job but I didn’t. I felt I had really pissed off this legend and behaved myself for the rest of the game.
Anyway I thought you might like that story I hope I conveyed the ‘spirit’ of it………
David,
No apology necessary: actually the story of your ancestors, though very interesting, is very sad and added to our discussion. I often think of how horrible it was for Irish emigrants to North America in the Famine years and indeed into the 20th century, They left behind an inevitable death to face a dangerous voyage and uncertain future. Unlike myself and Patrick, who can jump on expedia and book a flight home once we have saved some money, most never saw their families or Ireland again. American wakes were really marking a form of death: family members new they would never see each other again in this life.
You mentioned your Uncles’ accents. I went to Nova Scotia several years back on a motorcycle tour, two of the guys who went with me were also from Ireland living in the US like myself. and an American couple came with us, We played pool in a bar somewhere before we reached Cape Bretton (the destination of our trip)., and got talking to some local guys, They sounded like they were from Ireland, but were third/fourth generation. It was not only the accents that were similar, but the mindset was similar to that of guys you would meet in rural Ireland. I made it a point to talk to as many natives/locals after that and found the same thing. It was a pleasant surprise to feel welcomed and at home in Nova Scotia. I do find a lot of Irish-Americans and Irish-Canadians need to preserve that distant link to their culture: seems that it is essential for their sense of belonging. I became more sensitive to their situation after that trip because I grew up in Ireland and left by choice, unlike many of their ancestors.
I have been reading your posts since coming back on the blog. You’ve revealed a lot about yourself: I can see you’ve had a lot of tough things to deal with in your life.
Donal.
Like so many survive, Donal, tough times. I wonder at times if maybe the majority of kids. Not that I’d wish it on anyone but it allowed me to save doubting people who talked about surviving similar and worse experiences. Kind of like talking to someone who actually walked on the moon… Probably that old survival thing that my grand dad passed on to my mother. She wasn’t born a brute. Just thinking out loud. I realize you know all that.
Oh, next trip, Donal, go to Newfoundland if you want to step into Ireland; the outposts especially. The music, the open doors, the laughter, the midnight mug ups/ full course meals, the generous attitudes to a stranger. I haven’t been back there for nearly 50 years; christ, 50 years…., sadly, it may have gotten all, ” civilized,” in that span of time. Oil, I’m told brought pimps, drugs, the whole McDonalds full meal deal to the city of St Johns.
Patrick,
Great story about the Gaelic match…at least you can say you annoyed a ref who was a legend !!!!
I used to like soccer, hurling and Gaelic as a kid. My parents never encouraged us to play though: they were negative and disparaging about sports. So, I was never much good due to a lack of encouragement. I remember getting my first hurley when I was in second class. The primary school pitch was right across from our house, so I went over on one long sunny Spring evening and practiced.
I wish my parents had been more positive. I just played the school league in primary, but to join the local GAA and FCC clubs like the other kids. Not that i would have been any competition to DJ Carey or anything, but most of the kids were average but enjoyed playing.
You must have been good to make the school U16, all the same.
Nowlan Park was where you played that day?
Donal
I just looked it up Nowlan Park is in Kilkenny this was in Killarney in Kerry. Fitzgerald Stadium it was called. It’s a big stadium like I said the Munster Final is played there every other year. It is/was a bit crazy for a 14 y.o. to be playing in such ‘big’ goals I mean the crossbar looked way up there. I wasn’t really a good footballer, playing in goal was a bit of cheating really. I mean I suppose I was an ok goalie or was thought to be but you know it is not the same as being an outfield player. There is such a ‘tradition’ in Kerry about all that football I mean and in a way the way I behaved was a bit ‘sacrilegious’ wouldn’t be the last time I did that……………..am I not a bit ‘sacrilegious’ about primal even………………
Patrick, not my game here, but whatever, you,” are,” something I truly admire is your refusal, ” to be disingenuous,” You throw it out and knowing the results, because being honest is that important to you. Thanks to you, I recognize now that I have at times, been disingenuous, disguising it as humour. Me the guy who asserts that, ” I always take ownership for what I say.” Full of crap I was on that one I now see, hiding sometimes behind, being indirect or, ” humour,” so I don’t catch shit. I owe you, sir.
Donal – I am a bit amazed I mean I sort of thought I was the only one to suffer this “Irish syndrome” thanks for being so open about your own ‘fantasies’ makes it seem strangely ‘normal’ now for a minute……………..I really thought I was sort of the only one…………..or the only one with that extreme of a case………………it’s good to ‘admit’ these things……………..
Patrick,
I misread: you did write Killarney, Being from Kilkenny (you probably got that from the DJ Carey reference) I inferred Kilkenny into your post I suppose and thought you meant Nowlan park.
Hurling was the big thing there, of course. I remember watching an All Ireland once then going out to my friends house to play a bit of hurling since we were so energized by Kilkenny’s win. Kerry and Kilkenny cannot really be sports Galway is a different matter because they have good teams in both sports.
Likewise, I am glad you revealed your Irish syndrome too:refreshing to have it out in the open. Interesting that we both have fantasized about escaping to another nationality…..it’s probably considered high treason to wish you were English in some circles in Ireland!!!!
One of the guys I knew did go to Nova Scotia and then New Foundland by motorcycle, and really enjoyed seeing it. A lot of driving though, which is tougher on a bike laden with luggage. I wanted to go back and see it: it is probably still largely unspoilt from what I have heard. New Foundland is the next piece of land when you head west from Ireland, so has always intrigued me. Labrador has always fascinated me too………it seems so desolate but I notice there is one road to drive my motorcycle along??? Would have to be July or August of course. I bought a book in Nova Scotia titled “This Wonderful Terrible Place” which shows pictures of Labrador and New Foundland which contains black and white photographs and provides some details of the history of these areas. it fed my curiousity I believe they are considered one province, but am not sure.
We actually camped in Nova Scotia which added immensely to our experience.
Donal.
Depending on where you go in Labrador, which is part of Newfoundland, there are expanses of rock surfaced roads which require 6 or 8 ply tires to avoid flats. It’s a travesty what the mining has done to Labrador. Holes in the ground so big they have built communities in them with long winding roads to get down. The people living there are oblivious to what is happening to the ecology. Monster 4 wheel drive pick up trucks are part of the luring candy package. When the minerals are gone so are the companies. Huge money for minimal education. One guy I counseled as a kid, Grade 8, some community college, is now a millionaire several times over.
Oh, and Cape Breton is part of Nova Scotia, Donal. Because of the need for artisan tradesmen in the early1900’s it has a fairly diverse ethnic population, while Scot is the predominant group; but Jewish, German, Italian, too. Where I live is where the French built the first permanent settlement in 1605, and Annapolis Royal, the 1st Capital of Nova Scotia.Then the British conquered them in 1613, and a see saw military campaign went on for decades. The Mi kmaq saved the French from certain death and they had a fairly respectful relationship except the French were bent on converting them to christianity. From the time the English and Scots gained the upper hand to the present there was an emphasis on exterminating all of the Indian Tribes, who were far more developed socially, politically, and in medicine and surgery than the European invaders. There is significant intermarriage between Irish, French and the Mi kmaq ( mee maw with a sort of haak sound at the end), and English and Scots with Black Loyalists, and free slaves fleeing the US before and after the American Civil War. Slavert was maintained by Northern fed gov’t in one form or another for 80 years after the end of that civil war. It was the engine that fueled the nations economic development, prisons used to supplement the slave sheds. Spitting was enough for a lengthy prison term to hard labor.
In Canada whites sold their excess children into slavery under the semantic, ” Indenture.” New Years Day and July 1st were scheduled auction dates. My paternal grandmother was ,” given in marriage,” by her Protestant/Baptist minister father at age 12, in 1877, to a 39 year old Scot from PEI. He drowned at sea and at 15 she was again, ” given in marriage, ” that time to a 62 year old US businessman. Rather uncivilized IMHO…. No wonder we inherited such fucked up parents. Sub humans….
I do get on my rants, sorry…
david
Kid#1 in Europe. Usually Z and he spend Saturday together laughing it up, driving around. Since he wasn’t here, she wanted ME to drive her around. Went to the beginning of Topanga, some overlook. Arguing all the way. Took the 2 dogs out for 2 minutes because Sophie’s whining was bothering Z. Not going to go into detail. Took those dogs home and picked up the monster dog and went for a drive to the beach. Stopped at the old PI on Pico because it is a good neighborhood to walk the monster dog in. Z didn’t bring her walking shoes and so we walked 5 mins only. Drove around to Pico and went past the old PI, then drove up to the new PI to take a glance at it. Z made a comment about me circling around the PI. She did not like going down memory lane. So we drove down to Santa Monica, ostensibly to go see the beach. But really, it was just memory lane, I was not interested in going down memory lane either, but I really had no plans happening in the brain matter. Drove past the house we rented on Bay Street, where the kids became serious drug addicts, and where kid #1 came close to dying everyday for a long period of time. Where kid #2 hung out with assholes. Where my favorite dog died a long slow death from leukemia. Where the dog we got kid#1 in 1989 died of old age. Where 2 of our cats got run over and 2 others went missing. Bay Street, where kid#1’s fish tank fell apart and half of his fish died. Bay Street, where I finally had to get rid of the 2 remaining fish because I was unable to properly clean the fish tank and kid was now staying elsewhere. Took the 2 fish to the fish store as recommended by fish enthusiasts online. They ended up in the dark back tank room of the pet store, where previously they had been in our living room full of light. The pet store guy said he would try to find someone to take them. Then my job and and me and Z got moved to AZ for 2 years. I called the petstore guy once and he said one fish had gotten a home. I meant to call again many times to see about the other fish but I could not bring myself to pick up the phone at work to do so. We came back from time to time to see the kids who were getting sober at a sober living house. I went to the fish store and the 2nd fish was gone and the petstore guy was no longer there. I felt horrible for abandoning that fish, they probably flushed him down the drain. A beautiful hawaiin fish, Oomo Oomo, or something like that, pretty large fish and you could look at him and know he had thoughts. Every time I drive past that pet store in Santa Monica I feel horrible about that fish. Anyway, Bay Steet, the same Bay Street where I once went to meet U, sometime in the 90’s, who later died of liver cancer. Bay Street, funny, also there was the Bay Street in Costa Mesa where my uncle almost murdered me. I did not feel too bad driving past the old house today because I am uncomfortably numb. We did have a couple of good times down at Santa Monica beach in the years since we got back from AZ. We don’t live there anymore, but we would bring Otto and Sophie and Cody down to the beach for a Saturday walk sometimes. I am sure Z and I argued in the car 50 percent of the times we went. Anyway, Z said if kid #1 gets a job after phd, in somewhere besides L.A., she intends to go with him. Fine with me, it will not be easy or even possible for me to get another job wherever kid ends up. I said I would probably stay anyway, because I moved to L.A. to go to PT, even though the prospects of ever returning to PT appear dismal. A sick cat now, another $400 at the vet. Well, she does not look too good, so maybe this time it won’t be so drawn out like with Otto. At least I was able to do some boring overtime work today, to pay for the vet. You know what, I am having a lot of fun in my old age. You know what, I am a fucking liar. Victim. What fucking ever.
Hey Donal, Thanks so much for your answer. I thought it painted a clear and concise picture as to what happened and how it has impacted you. I must say it sounds like an incredibly painful situation to have grown up in. Marks comment regarding ” a spirit of generosity” was pretty accurate as far as I’m concerned! Gretch
> Donal, 20 years of Shotokan, that explains why I always noticed something very secure, upright and stable about your bodily posture.
> I am a black belt judo myself, and notice still how it creates a basic kind of confidence, despite probably never really useful in a physical way for me now in a fight.
> the confidence in itself once was enough for me to chase away a mugger one night who assaulted me right in fromt of my own doorstep. I just kept pushing him away and screaming at him what a coward he was to assault a blind person, and that I was not gonna give him my money, haha, and finally he ran without having taken anything. even the cellphone he grabbed out of my coat pocket was left on the window sill..
> I like that bit of knowledge about you.
>
> and David, that was a very nice thing you said about me not having to explain myself.
>
> well, only 29 more comments to read this morning..
> M
Gretchen – you asked me 2 very interesting questions at least to me they are. 1. How does psycho-analyis compare with primal therapy as regards ‘distancing’ the distance between therapist and patient, ‘transference’ etc etc 2.How exactly did/do I feel ‘helped’ by this blog.
I would love to have a crack at both of those……………….but I’m thinking what are the chances especially with somewhat cerebral topics like that or at least they will be seen as such, what are the chances that I won’t get my words ‘quoted’ back to me in a stupid, spiteful and nasty way (There THAT might well get ‘quoted) I would say my chances are nil. My logic will be found to have holes in it, I will be found to be a ‘crooked thinker’ I will be told to “STOP’ doing something or other, I will be told to stick to MY feeling and to STOP having notions about the world, rigid distinctions will be drawn and made about ‘MY” feeling and ‘reality’ on and on and on. Not that ‘reality’ anywhere operates that way except in the rigid mind of ‘religious fanatic’
So in the interest of hopefully a peaceful Sunday I will have to pass for now. I don’t need it and I don’t think the blog needs it. Just more pointless one up man ship and PR. But thank you very much for asking it is nice that you do not ‘shun’ me like the “Amen Corner” and I will keep it in mind and at some point I will answer you. And seriously thanks again for asking. I plan to be away from the computer all day (a peaceful Sunday hopefully)……………….
My social life on weekends is feast or famine, too often famine. But this weekend, it’s a feast. On Friday evening I went to dinner and a play with about 10 ladies from a singles group I’m part of. What’s interesting for me is how I felt able to exert myself, my personality, into the group dynamic instead of just being a quiet, passive tag along. The other interesting aspect about it was how despite it being a good and successful social evening for me, my dominant feeling exuding through it all was emptiness.
This Saturday morning I got a hair cut. It’s my 4th one with this new barber. He’s a young man in his 20’s. Conversation until now has been kind of strained and polite. I sense a lot of repressed tension in him. This morning he opened up to me. He was 8 years old in Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. He was scared all the time, terrified of the dropping bombs, constantly wanting it to stop. In his teenage years he was depressed, suicidal. He came through it all by deciding what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, that there is a reason for everything, and you have to have faith in God’s plan. You get the idea. I didn’t brush him off. I just said to him I have a different view. He wanted to hear it. I told him OK, but I don’t want to try to change your mind, I accept your view is valid for you and works for you, but it isn’t what works for me. Then we had a friendly discussion while he cut my hair, where I dismantled some of his thesis and presented alternative possible explanations for why life is the way it is, which he found interesting. He enjoyed that we were able to disagree on friendly terms. As I paid my bill, addressed me as ‘brother’. It was a nice connection, but so shallow compared to the connection with good primal friends, leaving me feeling empty.
Saturday evening I went to a backyard potluck barbeque, with about 35 people from the singles group. I liked how I was able to mingle a little more confidently than in the past. I liked how the conversations I had with the persons seated on either side of me became pretty real, or with a friend who came to sit beside me to visit. I liked how accepted I felt in this friendly group. But my dominant feeling exuding through it all again was emptiness.
Today I have a potluck picnic to go to. Yet this morning I woke up very early, unable to sleep for some reason, restless. I felt an awful unease that was taking the fun out of the weekend for me, that was draining any fun out of life, a hopelessness that was making life feel not worthwhile despite my efforts at growing it. Probably a feeling on the verge of erupting I figured. So I got up and turned on some music. Sure enough, out poured the feeling. I have no family history to find strength in, no parents who I lovingly bonded to, no childhood that I cherish. I’m just alone on my own. If I don’t find the right people to connect to, it feels like life/retirement will hardly be worth it. Then again, it was my childhood that was unbearable. When I was strong enough to go out into the world, I was astounded that people saw something in me that my parents never did. It was those people who made my life worthwhile as I made my way.
I’m at a stage where my life is poised to change, where I feel very alone, where the emptiness of my childhood is starkly evident to me, where I have to have faith and trust that if I reach out I will find good people, while at the same time realizing the disturbing truth how I had to shut down reaching out to my parents who were not good people for me.
Wow, Larry. I, too, keep revisiting old scenes, feeling the same feeling over and over; though not so much repeating the same feelings anymore. With such hopeless childhoods, so many feelings contributing to a particular state of reacting, I don’t know whether I have simply completed feeling some things or if I am blocking. Or maybe it’s another pivotal feeling altogether. Finally, I am more confident that I have stopped thinking about an emerging feeling.
Went for coffee at friends home last evening. The wife is totally controlling, and, unsolicited, it was my turn to be told how to run my life, the, “you shoulds ??” Followed by how together she is. I feel sad for her because she is wearing out her body with all of that rigid thinking. Couldn’t unload, it would be unfair and inappropriate, So I put it on hold, simmering, until I got to the end of their long driveway when leaving. Didn’t swallow it this time or bring it home with me. Feeling anger is getting a little easier. At the end of ventilating came the anger that my childhood caused me to develop a life where I have so few choices, that I have to tolerate interacting with some ,”unright,”people just to have a social life. My one,”right,” friend recently had an unidentified cerebral event and is now not very much in the present.
Hope you are where you’d like to be before retirement, because, I agree, that complicates things.
David,
I found your outline of Nova Scotian history very interesting: you know your history, which is always a good thing for a person to be aware of. I did not study the history of Canada ever, except a class I did once which was a survey class of all Native Americans in the different regions of North America. I was not aware of the importance of prisoners and slaves to the economy. Similar to the Irish and English prisoners who were sent to Australia for relatively minor offenses and used for labor.
Donal
Very strong parallels, Donal. Canada, and Nova Scotia, in particular was actually a leader in Public Education in my youth, provided a view of world history deemed to be reliable by independent experts. Kids arriving from other provinces and the US were down graded by 1 – 2 class years to catch up. It’s a failing system now. Except, they left out the part about the campaigns of genocide against the 1st peoples. Must have accidentally gotten lost when it went to print…lol Our first Prime Minister, drunken John A MacDonald, who kept a barf pail by his desk, stated in the House of Commons that the demise of every last Indian by whatever means necessary, was his hope.
I had two wonderful history teachers who made it dynamic. I learn best by listening and observing.
And true to my nature know more about underdogs than top dogs, except those that were bastards to we underlings… lol
Gretchen,
I appreciate you asking me about this……got me talking about some important stuff. I do need to remember that it was consistently painful for me in my family, and the ingrained way that it affects me today. For me it’s the way I felt in my family day in and day out over years that caused my pain, perhaps more than specific incidents. I felt bad around them most of the time.
I have a session with Barry tomorrow so will talk about this more …..unless some thing else comes up in the meantime: you know how that goes! :).
Thanks,
Donal.
Patrick,
I was not going to post this, as you used to post music videos on the blog on Sunday morning, So, did not want to steal your thunder. However, seeing as you are gone for the day, here is a song relevant to Nova Scotia and emigrant dreams. I always like this song, but the story is a sad one:
Great to hear Stan Rogers. Thanks Donal. His classic, the Northwest Passage, was the anthem of those of us who worked and canoed in the wilderness of northern Canada.
This guy’s music was also an anthem to the north, the wilderness, and working, canoeing and camping in it. Pardon my indulgence. It was my life for 1 1/2 years before I got to LA.
” Ah for just one time….” you’re absolutely right great song for those occasions. My 16 ‘ Gates, Stewart, Indian Princess cross, white cedar got crushed when the outdoor kitchen roof collapsed under snow load. A lot of good memories over 33 years in it, and sleeping under it; like a dependable, predictable friend. For now I only have the Mi kmaq style paddles my father carved.
For sure; tons; camping trips, canoeing trout fishing, music, parties, swinging, skipping stones, swimming in the creek, ball, hockey, piano, sneaking into the wild life park to feed the moose, with my children are precious. They were my life, after the work day ended. When they were off to sleep I played music with band mates. But now it’s kind of like that song, ” I’m living on things I once done..” I have gained the confidence that I can move forward, and want to. Even going to start, after a 13 year time out, having conversations with a woman who also plays guitar and caterwauls. Scared but going forth…
My canoe was built for me by my elder friend, the year my youngest daughter died. Thanks, Larry.
Not a problem Donal – I am kind of amazed you remember that. It feels a long time ago a sort of lost world to me now. Memory is kind of amazing like how MUCH we remember and adding new memories all the time. Doesn’t the brain get ‘full up’ and for each new memory we add does an old one have to go to ‘make room’……………but it probably does not work that way. How does it work or is it a ‘head trip’ to ask that? My bad…………….
Larry,
As always, I admire your ability to persevere and connect with people in the present, despite the loneliness and pain of your past.
I can see the retreat had a positive effect, assuming that you meant socializing and mixing is easier since before the retreat (you may have been referring to a longer period of time). Nonetheless, I think you are making some real progress in connecting to people in the present while being in touch with the old feelings.
I have been taking more risks with engaging people recently, both socially and at work. I feel I have made some good progress: I can participate in conversations more spontaneously rather than being in my head planning for the right moment to enter. Less barriers in joining in. I used to think the barriers were just reserve, or some over-politeness. In reality, they were just a bunch of crap my parents pun in my head, for want of a more artful expression.
I feel lighter and more free socially, I also feel freer just to be myself, rather than adhere to some template of how I should behave. That was stuff my Dad put in my head: he taught me to control my personality cognitively so that I would behave properly in a social situation. Plus he had ridiculously old-fashioned notions from the 30s and 40s, seemingly. So, I did not trust myself as he did not trust himself.
I realize now if I trust myself, socially successful behavior follows naturally, There is no need for all these cognitive rules: I can sense what is appropriate and what is not based on feeling. I do not have to be perfect at it anyway.
I hope you enjoy the picnic and the socializing today.
Donal.
How hard David to be trapped in trying to get what you need from the wrong people. I’m glad you are feeling freer socially Donal, more free to be yourself. I was able to enjoy the picnic and socializing today. More people were interested to visit and talk with me, more so than other times. The connections felt good and real and I could let them just be casual instead of needing to cling to people.
But doing what I need to do sure brings up stuff for me. As soon as I started the 1/2 hour drive home after the picnic, emptiness seeped in and took hold. At home I lay down for a 1/4-1/2 hour nap. I described earlier how I arose very early this morning, restless, my sleep cut short. After my nap, emptiness still haunting me this afternoon, again I put on some music, and again out poured more feelings. So much emptiness in childhood, emptiness that could factor in my present if I don’t do something about it.
I cried need for my parents, need difficult to let myself feel, need for them now and the need still there from my past, need for them and love for them, but nothing in return from them but cold indifference, neglect, such a tragedy, such a cold brutal reality of life, impacting and ruining mine. That’s the hardest part, seeing and feeling there can and will never be anything from them in return, on this earth, in this reality, for eternity and it would have destroyed me.
It feels that, especially the childhood feeling is that it is hardly worth going on with life. No wonder I was so shy, quiet, withdrawn and afraid as a kid. But as an adult, I’ve found life is worth the effort. That I mean something to my friends, that I meant something to Noreen, gives my life meaning but these days brings up how little I felt I meant to my parents. I feel great emptiness, but surely if not to my parents, there is someone out there to whom I am worth something.
Larry, I relate a lot to what you say here about feelings of emptiness coming up.That’s a good description of what I experience as well. I have my family around me and people where I work but it happens anyway,For the most part it seems like I don’t have much to complain about, but littlethings and big things in my marriage relationship also trigger these feelings.Some of these things in the relationship I’ve come to realize are my own fault.But I picked someone who maybe isn’t especially sensitive and that has somethingto do with it too. I set myself up for a bit of a struggle. We are together a longtime and it works, but hasn’t always been easy. My parents, especially my mother just didn’t see me and what I needed, I was on my own.Every time those feelings of emptiness come up, and it is a lot of sadness, need,and anger, afterwards I feel a little more whole and able to connect with people,and my relationships are improving as I am better able to express myself.Phil
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 23:31:21 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Oh Lord, or, Laird, Tiarna, your preference, you wouldn’t dare step foot inside an Irish styled Pub in Nova Scotia without being able to sing or mumble through this lengthy ditty; it’s the 31st and 151st psalm… A,” STANFEST,” in honour of this adopted son is held every year on the weekend immediately following July 1st, Canada Day, at Canso, NWestern tip of NS where the causeway accesses Cape Breton Island.. A 3 day pass is about 100 bucks. His brother Garnet attends, all world class talent.
The Irish counter insurgency is quite legitimate, in my view, especailly in view of the English repression of the Irish. Not that the English didn’t repress many of their own, due in part as I see it, by means of royalty and the aritocratic structure.
My take on the whole ethnic/cultural factor is the sense of separation it creates, rather than the coming together of all peoples. In the end we are all mongrel in one form or another. It is why I see ‘PRIDE’ especially the kind of pride that my dad used to instil into us Waddy’s … about being Waddy’s, British and some other none-sense. I bought into it initially, until I began to think about things in a broader sense especially when entering conscripted military service at 17+ and met all the various factions of other British conscripts; learning by listening to many others their accents and in some case dialects, rights, rituals and ways of thinking.
My education about the differences of people, was advanced by hearing many others idea and desires and where they hoped to take their lives to the point that I often precipitated those discussion. I was further helped in another sense by being gay and finding that I began to meet an array of people outside of the army. It was at this point that I seriously began to question my religious belief, to the point of utterly rejecting it all. Much to my mother’s chargin and upsetness. This began a further rift with my parents and the feeling that I was now “ready” to leave my home town and get to a more cosmapolitan center … London in my case.
I was futher helped in all this by meeting some very, very bright people, especially in the gay world, and because I was a catch for many of them (thought at the time I did not see it).
I say all this in the hope that this blog can be used in a like manner. I feel this blog was a brilliant Idea, in that it threw a bunch of us together to fight, figure,enlighten, configure and see our place in this very loose bond of what is called Primal people. I do not see us with any tight bonding, but a place where disagreement, and undertanding that disagreement does not necesitate dislike … of others, or feelings.
It’s Ok to be sad, angry, terrified and even happy, if and when the feeling takes over. Something that was, and is currently being suggested by other, from our pernts and upbringing. Dunno if I am rattling any cages here, but even if so, isn’t that why we are thrown together on this blog ???????
Agreed. Something seems to be happening, a bit more solicitous ??? I think Maggie sort of set the tone. I’m grateful for that, and for comments that stir me. Sometimes they take a while to get through my hard skull.
David: Maggie sure DID set the tone … it is not that ironic that she, like her buddy Reagan, became demented. If Janov’s writings are anything to go by (and to me they are), it all started in the womb for both of them.
A thought occurred to me as I was reading your comment:- We have 20, or thereabouts, running for President for this land of the free …. stating they are going to solve the problems of the country, and who knows, the world.
Haven’t there been about 45 presidents over the course of the last two centuries plus: and we are still, seemingly, not solving the problems … as I’m sure most of them in their political campaigns insisted they would. I’m convinced none of the currents ones will either, but we peons go on thinking they might
smoke and mirrors, Jack. They, the politicos, create diversions whilst real intentions run under the surface. I get more out of reading ex politicians, once powerful,who for whatever reason decide to spill the inside workings. The more I read the more it reminds me of as a boy sitting in the dressing room of professional wrestlers, mostly pals, running over the script of the show they’ll be acting out, physical and verbal; professional hockey where the fights are staged, maybe the wins, too… peons or pawns, we…
Oh could you suss out more directly your first paragraph. Are you throwing down a gauntlet ??
David: If by the first paragraph, you were referring the Maggie & Ronnie one, I don’t get your drift. If on the other hand your are referring to the earlier first paragraph about the “Irish counter insurgency” … then my answer is NO … no gauntlet … I meant it. We British have a lot to account for when and if we “reach the pearly gates” and that goes for the instigation of ‘slavery’ in this nick of the woods.
I contend that those colonials that crosses the pond … mostly the poor and disenfranchised in the old county … on getting to the new world, saw an opportuinity to enhance their prior poverty stricken situation, and play at being ‘new found aristocrats’. It’s a British imbred mentality … as I saw it … from within.
I’m sure I’ll come in for some flack from other British folks. BUT, it’s obvious … to me … we fucked-up most of the planet.
Oh Jackie; as Barry said, ” ,… get on the wrong train every stop is the wrong stop…”
When I said, ” Maggie,” I meant , ” our,” Margaret. I am guessing you thought I meant the barbarian, Margaret Thatcher. I’m asking myself, ” why would Jack, who likes Margaret be calling her demented, and I’ve never read her friend, Reagan, on the blog.” And so I ask for clarification from you, you make an indirect, snipey, remark in another comment about people needing clarification, and so on,an on… misunderstanding is interesting.
Then as I rehashed this , a bit ago , I had a senior brain fart, and an ” AHA,” moment; Maggie, Reagan…..
Sorry I got us on the wrong train…
david
> ha, Donal, was there no mentioning of shotokan karate in your comment at all, and twenty years in the same line??
> maybe I dozed off again this morning, smiley, sorry..
> M
Since coming home from the retreat I’ve been extremely busy although still readingthe blog. We’ve experienced severe car problems, one son was in an accident. He’sfine but the car was very old and is a total loss. Another car died on a camping trip lastweekend at the campground. The engine is shot, another lost car. So all of this has been a lot to deal with and exhausting. These cars had to be towed, junked, and I was drivinga rental car until yesterday. We had to run out and buy a another car. On top of all this I found out I have Lyme disease. It was caughtearly, so it shouldn’t be a problem. On the advice of a friend I’m taking doublethe dose of antibiotics and for a longer time period. I want to make sure it’s clearedup. Besides all of this we have my mother in-law, niece, and nephew visiting and theyneed to be entertained and shown around. All of this has left me little time to dwellon feelings but I do need to. In my normal routine I keep things under control, I havetime and space, but all of this has been stimulating me, and of course, without the support available at the retreat just a few weeks ago.I was debating whether to share all of this or not but decided it could be good toput it all in writing. Phil
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:55:52 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hey David, I read and listen! I often don’t comment on writings, because I often don’t know what to say or the obvious pain someone expresses is expressed or there’s too much ‘head trip’ stuff for me!
I was being 3/4 cheeky, Jo, yesterday being a rather settled day. Thanks, though. The other 1/4 though, there was discussion about the Shotokan Karate reference, attributed in a positive way to Donal, ie; explaining his competent character. It really meant nothing in itself to me. I felt no need to yell, , ” It’s me, it’s me.” But, then, no one knew who had made it; ie: my comment hadn’t been read or had not registered with anyone, unimportant, like me. . It touched my feelings of invisibility in a group, the guy who can stand alone in the corner all night, that I don’t matter. Listener was the majority role in my past professional life. In my personal life my role is also listener. If I want to end a conversation all I have to do is become a participant. That leaves me empty, alone, and angry at times. Notoriously always there for others but little reciprocation. Maybe if I didn’t run on so I would be read, or maybe remembered is more accurate.. Like Tom, I wonder at age 69 if I have enough time to grow up even if I were under optimum growing up conditions.
Phil – I am glad you wrote here! So sorry to hear of all the exhausting problems with the cars and most importantly about you having Lyme Disease. That is scary – but so great you got to treatment quickly. What symptoms were you having? – if you want to share.
I am also glad your son is ok after an accident. Thankful for that I’m sure!
It will be wonderful for you and your family to vacation soon!
ox L.
Leslie, There was a black dot on my body which I ignored and didn’t suspect was a tick. Laterit was gone and a rash developed and was spreading. I had chills one night, headache,and fever for several days. At that point I guessed it was Lyme but my doctor thoughtit was cellulitis. The Lyme tests came back positive. My symptoms are finished and were rather mild. It hasn’t effected my joints at all in the way it could have. It is scary because I worry about lingering symptoms and problems. I know several people who have continualsevere problems with this. Thanks for asking. I am looking forward to the upcoming family vacation, we need it.Phil
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 07:26:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
An MD friend who contracted Lyme some years back discovered there were only a very few clinics in North America where they actually knew how to treat Lyme. He said the standard anti biotic dosages and the stock course of treatment protocols were not sufficient to vanquish the varmint, and severe lingering problems, like you say, if a thorough clean up is not followed through first time around. I know he went to an away location, I think Australia. My Naturopath colleague tells me there is a reliable treatment clinic in Arizona. Also the Envirionmental Health Center in Dallas Tx treated Lyme when my friend Dr Ross was on staff there. Or at least he did. But that’s yarons ago.
Thanks David. Hope I never need it – but just wondered about Phil as we just saw him
@ The Retreat.
Of course tragic things can happen quickly – as you know. Our 22 year old son just left a couple of hours ago for his close friend’s funeral. His friend was just fooling around and fell from the 4th floor of an apt. blg. under construction last week. Tragic mistake…
Jack,
I agree wholeheartedly agree with what you said about this blog. I think it has been a success overall thanks mainly to a few regulars who keep it going through the leaner times, and post openly about their lives, feelings and pain.
I always find primal people to be more alive, more interesting and more stimulating in general. True, it is a loose bond as you put it: we are all from different backgrounds with different interests and paths in life, to a significant extent. However the fact that we accept the full range of feelings is the unique element that binds us.. Most people see uncomfortable or unpalatable feelings as things to ignore, eradicate or suppress, not to embrace or explore. Therefore, they ignore parts of themselves. Primal people accept the whole spectrum: I think that is why they generally seem more alive, and benefit from more of the good feelings also.
Whenever I return from retreats back to the world, I can see the contrast clearly,
Donal.
Donal: That comment of yours was very encouraging to read. We none of us should be afraid of any expression of any feeling, and that includes fear itself. I hope that last line is clear.
For any that find it confusing, let me know and I will take another shot at it.
Patrick, I think you may have misunderstood me. I was only asking you one question. How had the blog helped you ? I don’t think that could be dissected by others as it’s simply your view. The other issue had to do with your comment that you believed there was a connection between Primal and Psychoanalytic ” distancing ” . I was just st explaining that was not the case and that these are very different approaches. Gretchen
Gretchen – just because you only ‘asked’ one question does not mean that I will not ‘answer’ two. lol. When you say that ‘it is simply my view and therefore cannot or would not be dissected………………….you would think so wouldn’t you…………….but you would think wrong………………I probably have said hundreds if not thousands of times on this blog what I though was ‘only my view’ but it DID get ‘dissected’.and many times thrown back in my face
But OK – I am making this more difficult than it needs be or should be but I am gun shy (what a strange word) now. Thinking about it now I suppose it is difficult for me to simply say that I like something and why I like it. But once again I can’t or don’t want to start now. Also for me it is a ‘big’ subject it could get into lots or areas but again I am making it difficult I will try later (promise)
On the other matter about psycho-analysis and PT I have quite a few thoughts and have started to write something about that too. But again my feeling is for sure that will be ‘dissected’ and found to be a ‘head trip’ I find that so tiring. I mean we all have heads we are probably meant to use them. I accept they can be over used and are a lot………….but then again people condemning ‘head trips’ are using their heads themselves in saying that kind of stuff and often to an extreme degree IMHO.
For some reason I have been ‘meditating’ (is that more acceptable than ‘thinking’ I am aware if I said ‘feeling’ everything would be ok…………….but these are all only words but some are more primally correct than others) a lot on Janov’s Idea about a ‘neurosis within a neurosis’………….what if it is that is what we are all (mostly) doing? It’s something to ‘think’ about oops I mean ‘feel’ about is that better?
Sorry to be so ‘meta’ about all this I suppose I am just tired and worn out from all the ‘blog wars’……………I probably will recover.
Hi Everybody
I am lying in bed night after night, awake, wondering what’s bugging me.
Ever since I came back from LA, I am completely exhausted, however I can’t get a full night’s sleep.
I read your posts and I am amazed how articulate you all are, with the description of what is going on with you. You all seem so “adult”. Contrarily, I feel like someone who has no clue. So little.
I’ve been wondering lately, where to from now on? I have two projects on, which don’t require full time attention. I have the Grumpies. I have my volunteer work, I have Suzi, the kids and the grand kids.
So why do I feel so alone? Why is it that there is nothing I can think of doing that would full fill my life, give me contentment. A sense of achievement.
And then I walk on the street, in a mall and can’t help looking at young mothers and their babies.
I want to scream at them when they are not paying attention to their babies. I look at babies and toddlers, and they always respond to me. How do I do that? I know I don’t have a magic formula.
Then this morning I wake up and make a list of things I have to do. Go shopping first. Have my hearing aids checked. Turns out it was a batch of bad batteries, not me damaging the bloody things.
Have my car washed. While that’s happening, I walk around the streets. Keep asking myself……Tom…..surely there is something you want……surely,no? ……Tom….what would give you pleasure……..Come on man, think!!!!! ……there has to be an answer to my dilemma.
There has to be something life, other than my yearly pilgrimage to LA and Santa Barbara that I could look forward to. You would think so, for someone that has almost everything in life.
So what is going on?
And then it hit me. Not the first time, but this time more clearly.
Everything I have ever done in my life, was to ultimately get what I never got from my mum, and possibly(?) from my dad. Everything I ever touched, any job I took on, any ill fated venture I got into, was to satisfy this deep yearning for physical touch. For a look into my eyes. For bonding. For connecting.
Surely, there is a time and place where I can get all this?
I am sixty nine year old, going on to three months of age. Will there be enough time for me to grow up? Can I ever “feel” enough to release me from this hell I live in? Constantly introspective, in a cocoon, feeling traumatised and incredibly anxious.
What the fuck have they done to me?
What can I do to help myself?
What? Feel and Feel and Feel the neglect, the old pain, the terrible longing, over and over again? There has to be a time for a pay off. Surely. IT CANNOT GO ON Infinitely! Surely!
I am a good boy. I attend to life’s issues. Personal issues. More importantly, I consider myself a “good primal patient”. So when is the pay off? I can’t stand feeling like this. An orphan in my own home. An orphan amongst my friends. An orphan amongst YOU.
I can’t stand it. Somebody HELP me !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please. I beg of you.
Tom
Your story sends a chill through me Tom. I’m afraid that when I retire my life will feel as empty as yours feels for you. Barren. Pointless. Meaningless.
Patrick, Well of course you can answer as many questions as you like , I was just saying I only asked you one. I wonder why you are worried about having your answer as to how the blog helped you dissected when that fear has not stopped you from expressing your views on other subjects. You are correct however that your answer might be examined or it might not be but in the end you are simply voicing your personal opinion as to what you have found helpful. But yes, others can express their reactions as well. Maybe it would be more difficult to have this particular answer dissected then other opinions you have discussed here , I’m not sure. Anyway, yes do some more reading and writing on the psychoanalytic issues that concern you and we can certainly discuss it further. Gretchen
> David, I am so sorry about having mixed your comment up with one of Donal!!
> so wow, you are the one with twenty years of shotokan, I only got to the yellow belt in that one!
> pretty intensive, ipressive you have done it for 20 years.
> and well, glad to see you and Jack seemed to be talking about two different Maggies, smiley, so far, I don’t think I am demented yet, though my memory is not as good as it used to be for little daily things at least.
> for studying luckily it still seems to do a fairly good job.
>
> Phil, tinking of you! M
No problem, Maggie. Yes since 1987; the past decade solo after our dojo closed. I see it as a form of walking meditation. Good stretching regime. The only time I ever used my Karate was while practicing kata at a vacation resort. I wanted to be out of sight so as not to give a macho bragging impression and opted to go behind a grounds keeping shed. As a rounded the corner I caught a peripheral image of a ladder coming at my right eye.I raised by forearm in a jodan block fashion block and deflected it. The poor guy carrying the ladder was freaked out, not seeing me, either…laughing aloud…
david
Hi Everybody
I am feeling somewhat relived since I have written my piece yesterday. Kept wondering how come? Why the relief? Then I realised that it was because I put pen to paper. Where else can I say it the way IT really is?
On second thought it is not altogether feeling just lonely. A better description would be, feeling excruciatingly alienated.
Before I go on, to answer you Larry, about being a good primal patient.
I put to you that I have regular sessions on the phone. I come regularly to retreats. I listen to my therapist. Or at least that’s what I think. But we all know, that there is no such thing, as a good patient. I was really having myself on.
Now, back to the beginning. Yes. The real beginning of my therapy.
I remember attending large groups and being asked what do I want? Being told to ask for what I want. It floored me. How the fuck would I know what I want, other than stopping my constant headaches. Other than stop feeling BAD all the time.
Only now do I realise that I felt too little to ‘know’ what I want. I couldn’t have verbalised it anyway.
It’s like you are asking a crying baby, what do you want? What do you need? How the fuck would a baby be able to answer that? No language. No developed brain to be able to know, nor to verbalise.
Didn’t I come here, to the Primal Institute, for you to take care of me? You’d know what I need!
What I had to do to earn the above is throw up my present life ( back then), get on a 18 hour flight, find a job to feed my family, find a place to live. Start a new life, in other words.
And then it’s over to you Primal Therapist. You look after me. You take care of me. You do all the things that will make me whole. So that I can fly back to OZ in eighteen months a Happy Little Vegemite.
It’s a fair deal?
No wonder I have been feeling so black. It is slowly becoming obvious, that I will never be taken care of. No matter what I do. I can cry, beg, crawl, yell, scream, which possibly I did when I was in diapers.
It is amazing that during my first encounters at the beginning of my therapy, I said and felt the core of my pain, without knowing it, without realising. Was I dumb, that unaware?
Yesterday I started to feel that life wasn’t worth living in the state I was in. No energy, no will for anything, aching in my whole body, thinking that I am starting to feel like the way I look.OLD.
That would mean that I miss out on life altogether. No joy. No fun. No feeling connected to you, friends, family, anyone. No pleasure in anything. How bleak can it get. Or shall I say BLACK.
Don’t know where to from here. All I know that “I’am doing life”. I am not living my life. I want my life back. Now!
Time to go to sleep. It’s 10:58 at night, Monday. I am drained by all this.
Tom
Tom: Both your responses these last couple of day were very right on. I was tempted to reply to the first one by saying “That last line was IT” … “HELP”. I am sure that is why today you are feeling a lot better. We are all crying out one way or another … each in our own different ways. Keep on blogging. It sounds good to my ears. Correction:- I should say eyes … but if you yell it out laud enough I will might hear you … all the way from OZ 🙂 .
Tom you go by ‘anonymous’ these days don’t know if you aware anyway just saying………….. and though you don’t talk to me does not stop me talking to you. It’s kinda funny I complain about people ‘ignoring’; me but then I am most unhappy because one particular person WON”T ignore me……………life is strange like that.
A rather un-necessary opening but I remember this thing at the PI of ‘ask for what you want’ and I had this deep feeling/knowledge and may even have said “what good is that going to do me – I am not going to get it anyway” This applied to my past, to my present life then both outside the PI and at the PI. Like OK I can ‘ask’ but I am not going to ‘get’
I guess I still feel that way deep down…………….still in that way I found the PI saying that to be quite ineffective. But I agree it is a DEEP problem……………and it’s MY problem.(This should ‘please’; Jack also it makes this post is nice and rounded an un-necessary opening and an un-necessary closing. My attempt at being ‘artistic’ even though that is also quite un-necessary I guess everything right now feels that way……………..necessary the word means ‘needed’ so not only did/do I not ‘get’ what I want I am also ‘un-needed’.
Aside from my own ‘needs’ I needed to be needed and I ‘acted out’ that a lot. If nobody needs me second best would be if they ‘needed’ me and they did in a way but mostly for their own reasons. So still not needed – not really that is.
Sorry put slightly wrong “If nobody needs me second best would be if they ‘needed’ me ” should have said if nobody meets my needs second best would be if they needed me” Just wanted that to make sense……………..
John Lennon’s song from memory “Mama I needed you/you didn’t need me”………….so to be ‘needed’ is important from birth and before life is a two way street. The infant needs the mother (of course) but the Mother ‘needs’ the infant too……………a beautiful balance. Could an infant be that ‘important’ it can and it is………….from small beginning comes great things…………………………
In “The Primal Scream” in the introduction, after Danny had related the story about Ortis: Arthur Janov thought; “oh! that’s worth a try:- call out for Mommy and Daddy”. Apparently Danny demurred, saying to the effect “what’s the point? we’ve done all that before … but Art insisted and eventually Danny started walking round the room calling “mommy, daddy”
The secret, as I see it, was not in thinking …” What’s the use? … I know I will never get them”. What it seemingly did to Danny was to throw right back to that moment in his babyhood when he perhaps did call out … and no one ever showed up.
Patrick; you stating:- “what was the point” was your attempt to NOT go there … it seemingly was/is, way too painful … yet as I see it, that was where your therapist was trying to take you … to that very moment way back, when you were calling them and NEEDING them.
The purpose was NOT TO GET IT …BUT TO RELIVE IT … IN ALL IT’S HORROR.
> David,
> I know you don’t need me to say this, but I feel truely sorry about the Shotokan mixup.
> I know how it feels to feel invisible and unimportant, a very bad feeling.
> once for me it also really felt like being ‘disposable’, not pleasant either..
>
> it is no excuse, but maybe it helps just a little to describe how i was, barely awake, working my way through about 50 comments that morning, still laying in bed on my back, trying to protect the laptop while listening to all the comments from the kittens that were jumping around all over each other and me..
>
> but again, just a description, no excuse.
> sorry to have trigggered that feeling..
> it is good to have you here, you have added a lot already to the blog, it would be really nice if one day you could come over to meet us in real life at some retreat, who knows, stranger things can happen.
> Maggie, the not so barbarian one, smiley
It’s really ok Margaret; maybe different on another day , ha ha, but that day it was no biggy. The other thing was that no one knew who done it, that is, who wrote it; even people who had read the comment. But I’m so long winded I probably bore people. Even if it’s coming from a feeling place it can, as someone wrote, come across as head trips. That no one recalled reading it would have been the biggy on a raw day. And if you had triggered a feeling,it’s all to my good. Can’t get out what isn’t in there, and if it’s my stuff rattling around in there and I can access it, that’s a gift.
dave
Hi all. I don’t comment on a lot of things either. Jack, I thought Vicki’s poem and gift funny and I laughed out loud. David, I knew that you were the martial arts fella and it seems to fit your personality. Too bad there isn’t a likes or dislike button so the contributor would know their comment was read. Or a “helpful” or “not helpful” selection button like Amazon has on reviews so we could participate at least minimally on our lazy brain-aging days.
Phil, have a speedy recovery and a fun vacation, bien vacaciones.
S
> Patrick,
> that sounds like a big feeling that has a huge overall impact, maybe even to finding therapy overall useless, from that very moment. if it is all hopeless to start with, if asking would not help, it is a very uneasy position, I can relate to that,needing something you should not have to ask for, is a bit similar and a familiar feeling to me.
> yours sounds even more basic still.
> hope you keep writing about this, it seems important.
> M
Hugs. They came so naturally and easily at the retreat and with friends afterwards. Hugs are such a normal, warm, reassuring human contact. Tonight my awareness is opening to how much I miss them, how much I need them, to how much I don’t want to live without them.
I sometimes still go to my bereavement group meeting that happens once a week. I think I go because it’s a once a week chance and the only place here for me to talk about feelings, and because at the end of the meeting we all exchange hugs. They’re the only hugs I get, except when I visit friends and family in Winnipeg a few times a year. This afternoon I caught up on excercising and didn’t go to the meeting tonight. Tonight I feel I’m emotionally hurting and physically aching, and realize that I want physical human contact. I want to hug and need a hug.
I’m realizing more how isolated I am. I need at least a hug every day and there is just none in my life. There was when Noreen was in it. I remember the hugs every day in LA and at the retreat and cry, because they felt so normal and right, the human connection, warm, reassuring, grounding, affirming. I cry because the ice in which I’ve been encased is starting to melt under the glare of primal vision that is letting me see I froze solid in childhood because there was no hugging for me.
When I lived with my aunt and uncle, I remember when I was about 3 my uncle picking me up, holding me, hugging me. I remember my 7 years older than me cousin, like an older sister, picking me up, holding me, hugging me. I remember at 4 moving back home to the farm. Something was wrong, but I couldn’t let myself know what it was. Now I can. There was no hugging. It caused long lasting psychic damage. They did not hug me, and I could not reach out to them for one. I did not matter to them. I couldn’t know. But the hurt registered, in my psyche, in my body, unconsciously. By their indifference, I knew but could not let myself be aware I did not matter to them. It was a shocking, impossible to know discovery, that I’m only now beginning to let myself feel the force of.
I don’t want to live in a life without hugging. I don’t have to be back there anymore, small, trapped, unable to get it, too helpless and overwhelmed to let myself know i need it. Now I can and have to get it in my life somehow.
It came so easily and naturally in the primal community at the retreat and in LA. I cry about that now, how easily and natural it should always have been, how there should have been hugging growing up, but how stark, empty, barren and lonely it was, and how cut off from human contact I feel here now. I wonder, are there huggers out there, where I live.
Group Hug, Larry. Sometimes when I see someone on tv in a hug I can almost feel it. Sometimes it’s just nice to touch something alive like my dog, warm and full of life. Touch is so necessary. Hugs never last long enough.
S
Hi Larry
You are inspirational the way you describe what is going on with you. The way you reach out. The way you take us in.
Do not stop under any circumstances. I am with you.
Tom
I don’t like that the guy is blurring the line between caring, connecting, trusting, bonding hugging, and erotic, sexual, caring (or exploiting), connecting (or objectifying), trusting (or manipulating), bonding (or abusing) hugging. The little kid wouldn’t know the difference. Maybe a lot of adults don’t understand the difference. It took me 28 years of therapy before I felt safe enough to ask Gretchen for a hug. If Gretchen or Barry came to group showing all that skin, paraded in the centre of the room with their pants riding low on their hips, offering free hugs, I’d question their motives, lose trust in them as therapists and leave. I don’t trust the kind of hugs portrayed in the video. To me they are empty calories, lacking nourishment, are maybe even exploitive.
Hey, still watching House. this is one of the real good ones. lady under collapsed building and house has to amputate her leg. She says “How bad will it hurt?” House says” Like nothing you ever felt.before”. Nuff said.
Otto, I take t from your writing that you live in LA ?? I noticed in a recent post you said you would like to re enter therapy at PI but that was unlikely to ever happen. Why not ??
Hi Mum
There hardly a day goes by that I don’t think of going out to the cemetery to visit your grave. And next to yours, grandma’s, your mum, and down a few meters, dad’s.
But really, what I am thinking of is making contact with you. Don’t tell Barry, but I am almost convinced that if I am a good boy, I’ll find a way for you to be there for me. You will rise out of your grave, look at me and HOLD me. It can happen, can’t it? And then I will feel whole.
“I know you are now all laughing. But there is no end to which I’d go to have that happen to me. So what if I debase myself. All for a good reason. To have my mum. you’d do it too, wouldn’t you? I am not the only crazy person in the universe. Am I?
Well, if that doesn’t work, I’ll find an other way, to have my mum. That’s all I want. Just my mum. That’s not too much to ask for, is it?”
Mum! Please, please come to me.
Come and hold me. Feel me. So I can feel you too. OK mum? And then we will be one. Please mum. I’ll be a good boy. Promise. Just come to me.
I am hurting now.
“But don’t tell mum. Don’t scare her away, because she doesn’t know what to do with me. How to be there for me. So long as she is near me, somehow I’ll teach her how to be a good mum. OK?”
Mum, so long as you are near me, I’ll look after you and then you’ll be a good mum. OK?
Your loving son.
Tom
Hi Jo
The longing for my “mum” is excruciating. It goes on non-stop, unabated. Nothing in the present fulfils me. IT is always something else that I long for.
It makes me even angry that I can still perform in the present, look after daily issues, however poorly at times.
I am constantly hungry. Nothing fulfils me. It is a monumental task to keep my weight down, as I am growing older, the few muscles I have left, are turning into fat. At the same time I constantly sabotage myself, as I will not exercise, or go for a walk , in the fear of running out of energy, and then……..I really won’t make it.
Nothing is ever “IT” in the present.
The last few days I have been extremely cold, even in bed. Shivering. And that’s not like me. I have always slept naked and I am always warm. It’s not like it is ever freezing in Sydney.
Is it my age? Am I approaching an other episode in my past that I have not been concious of? am I thinking too much?
But lately I’ve been questioning my life. What is it about? What’s the point of throwing myself into anything new, when I know that my history is to pick on something to avoid a feeling, avoid an awareness.
Has my life been that bad? Really?
I feel extremely weighed down, hopeless and no clue how to make it better.
Maybe I will go and have my next session with Barry in the cemetery again. Maybe then I will feel closer to my mum. Is that a crime?
Would kill for a moment of closeness with my mum. To be one with her. To feel her.
Will the longing ever stop? It is constant and unending.
Going to the Grumpies in a few minutes. Doing life.
Ahhhhhhh. It drives me crazy. This constant need.
Somebody put a stop to it.Please.
Tom
Tom, the cold and shivering aren’t symptoms of ageing, as far as I know. Your Grumpies’ll tell you …
I hope you get some relief writing everything down..
You’re hurting…
Jack,
I agree in general that the “what’s the point” response is the tip of the iceberg: at a deeper level our minds do not want us to go to the pain. It might be a self-fulfilling prophecy also when we begrudgingly and reluctantly try to talk to our parents or some similar thing the therapists might recommend, Also, we may use the “I tried that before and it did not get me into a feeling” line. I realized (mainly because Mark told me so often), we have to try those things many times and quite often nothing dramatic is going to happen. I guess it chips away at your defenses and gets you closer to feeling. I have also heard Mark say to me and others that you have to try the same thing many times: therapy is messy. All of this I realized in time was very true.
Also, I find that there is some hopelessness when a therapist suggests saying something to my mother or whatever, The tip of another iceberg for me…..
Bottom line, we may as well use all our opportunities to go towards the pain when prompted. It takes long enough, let’s face it 🙂
Donal
Donal: No-one, least of all Art Janov wants pain, But then there’s pain and pain. There’s the pain of repressed feelings … that’s bewildering, seemingly unattainable, just lurking there in the background … more or less all the time Then there’s that other pain, for me, just before sinking into the horror to end all horrors.
Then in hindsight, having gone there, there is this relief like no other. It’s not that even then; going there a second time is any less troubling. I don’t know how to explain this other than to say that “Yes! I’ll let it happen … just a little bit … then to be able to snap out of it before it goes to that “near death’ experience. That to me is the absolute worst.
So! is there this other part of me that says “ok but make it as painless as possible” Yep, yep and yep. Of course, there’ no way I can make it happen … not that in the final analysis, I will ever do that, cos for me it comes up more often than I would plan it. There will forever feel “there should be an easier way” From my experience so far … there ain’t.
I work in a federal building on a beautiful university campus with lots of green space near a river flowing through the City. My fellow employees, there are probably 300, are for the most part pretty civil, decent, fair minded people. It’s kind of an ivory tower work environment.
My workmates and I go outside the building to one of the food vendors on campus for our coffee breaks, usually to a Tim Horton’s nearby. Recently the Tim Horton’s is closed for construction, so we went to the main food court on campus. I hadn’t been there for many years. I was shocked by the posters on the garbage bins and pillars. The posters showed a young woman in normal day wear reclined on a sofa, asleep. The poster says, if she didn’t consent, it isn’t sex. I was dismayed that the message wasn’t automatically self-evident, but that it had to be spelled out to the campus males.
I consider the summer students I work with to be the cream of the crop of young people with good integrity, sense of responsibility, work ethic, and social empathy. Most of them have been a real pleasure to work with, as are my two current male summer students in their very early 20’s. They told me recently of a party gone bad that they had attended and left early. The party was put on by a group of summer students working for our federal employer, students who I might sometimes pass by on my daily work routine. At the party someone slipped a drug into a young lady’s drink.
I couldn’t believe it. I asked, didn’t she have friends there looking out for her. Apparently she came with girlfriends who got drunk. She was the designated driver, with no intention of getting drunk. Someone slipped a drug in her drink. According to my summer students, the culprit was an outsider, a male friend of one of the male summer students at the party.
I was shocked. I could kill the guy. I could take a hammer to his privates. The reality of the outside world is such a jarring adjustment for me after the warm, caring empathy of the retreat. I still haven’t fully adjusted to being back here after the retreat. I think I don’t want to. I need to believe my world is a fairly nice place. Maybe it isn’t. How do I live in it then???
I was alone in a bar in Spain, kids (8 and 14) in bed nearby, on the edge of town, chatting with the young bar man. I remember feeling relaxed, as it was a rural area, where friends lived nearby, and he knew my friends. I know I had one drink, as I’d promised myself that before going to bed myself. The next thing I remember was I was lying on the floor and a guy was on top of me using my body, and 2 others were there one doing up his flies..I started to struggle and could barely move. Another guy hovering near the door noticed I was awake, and said something I think to that effect to the others, as they all left suddenly. It took me a while to gather myself, I realised I’d been raped. I have no recollection of how I got there, as it turned out to be a shed at the back. I remember waiting for ages, too frightened, crawling out, heading back, check the kids, then bed. I was numb and shocked. The children were happy to go to a friends house with a pool, I walked alone up in the mountains I remember, trying to get back to feeling ‘normal’. I felt such shame, and never told anyone till one group about 7 years ago. I’m crying on and off as I write, I have hardly let myself go there.
Phil, Larry, I appreciate your comments.
It’s good that the event surfaced again because I found there was a lot more to feel about it.. I’m saddened that I carried so much, on top of childhood pain, through decades.
The question of “RAPE” is a subject that I feel is in serious need of discussion not only academically but between the sexes. Further the subject should be started at an age perhaps before puberty between boys and girls. If there is to be an adult involved it would require, as I see it, the adult remain COMPLETELY NEUTRAL unless the discussion began to get out of hand, then the discussion should end, temporarily, and maybe some rules imposed.
Where I feel a lot of this goes “out of whack” is that sex itself is such a taboo subject, leaving both sexes little knowing how the other feels, particularly over sexual encounters. Education is not where I see real knowledge on the matter, dependent upon what constitutes education.
Being a gay man I have little to say on the sexual arousal of the sexes to one another, but I do feel I have some sense of knowing the opposite sex since I was a member of a family of two boys and two girls each of us one year apart in ages. Since we all four shared one bedroom, all the way to us each leaving home, and as little children were bathed together, I knew exactly what a girls body looked like. Also we were lucky that my mother did not keep sex and where we each came from, from being discussed.
It is my feeling that this misunderstanding on the part first of young boys, then later it being ONLY a discussion between boys (presumably the same applied to girls). However in my case when the girls began to reach puberty they did demand some privacy … but not to the exclusion of us being totally separated.
Maybe others could fill me and the rest of the blog in, with their feelings and ideas on the matter. Merely making it illegal seemingly, has not solved the problem. Education as currently being practiced does not seem to offer any solutions either. It is, after all, a HUGE FEELING experience
Jack,What I think is that rape is more about acting out anger than sexual feelings.It certainly isn’t about making love. Discussions of thetype you mention might be worth trying but I’m doubtful of the possible value.Rapists have issues that need to be dealt with on a personal level. It should be made clear that it’s unacceptable and criminal type behavior butthat doesn’t necessarily seem to deter strong impulses driven by sexualized pain.Phil Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:33:22 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sometimes I wonder if we don’t diagnose people who use people, in the case of sex want to ejaculate inside another person regardless of their feelings and rights, with too much of our clinical eye. There are those bastards male and female who simply take what they want in terms of gratification and then there is I think another whole class of insane who get off on degrading , even murdering victims. The only remorse I ever saw was getting caught. And in all of the in family cases both mom and dad, 90% of the time, blamed the kid. And preferred surrendering the children over separating from the abusive parent. In 20% of the cases both parents were perpetrators, in every case both parents were involved, one consciously or unconsciously setting it up.
There will always be people who don’t care about the feelings of others and will take what they want from them. They should be given the chance to reflect upon, feel and make up for the hurt they caused, or shipped to another planet of other people like themselves.
Larry: Whilst I understand your sentiments; I don’t agree to your method.
I personally would like to attempt a means of prevention. Not sure what that could be, but I see our current methods to not be working … and fear the worst..
I suspect you think of me as being misguided … and don’t wish to argue that. But somehow, somewhere, I hope there is an answer.
Some people are genetically determined sociopaths/psychopaths, some are that way due to brain injury, and some are due to emotional trauma. We could prevent them by aborting in the womb the genetic deviants, by preventing brain injury, and by preventing emotional trauma.
You must be getting braver Jo. I’ve never seen you write anything as personal on the blog before. Sounds like writing about it was helpful to you.
It’s too bad that back then you were the one who felt shame, when it was they who behaved as reprehensible, insensitive, cowardly subhumans.
Sometimes I wish I carried a gun, or at least a two-by-four, to use on people like that in the act.
25 years ago one of my summer students came in late to work. He volunteered as a big brother. He had been biking along a main street when a car pulled over out of traffic and parked at the curb in front of them. A lady came scrambling out of the passenger side, tripped and crawled onto the sidewalk. The man inside driving grappled with her as she tried to escape the vehicle. Seconds after she fell he was on top of her and started stabbing her. All my summer student could do was shield his little brother’s eyes from the scene. Needless to say at work the summer student was in shock for awhile. How helpless he must have felt. How handy a gun or two-by-four would have been to use to stop the perpetrator.
Last year a senior dental student at Dalhousie University attempted to blow the whistle on fellow senior students who were participating in an on line blog, ” The Gentlemen’s Club,” discussing their female class mates in sexual predatory terms. From the description it sounded criminal. The whistle blower, married, with children, suffered most. The identities of the participants were protected. Police decided to let it be settled in house. The university administration closed ranks and what amounts to a sexual consent sensitivity course was imposed, to which the majority of the aggrieved, at risk, female students were announced to agree. The whistle blower, a non participant was ordered to take the same course, and being self identified has the most career ramifications. These predators were allowed to graduate and now will be leering at and potentially offending anesthetized patients.
For your health Jo I visiting it until you are no longer their victim is the healthy choice. The bastards don’t deserve another second of your life. .
A raped toddler survivor, I cannot do push ups unless in a group setting. I have no strength and a feeling of foreboding terror engulfs me, and my feeling of incompetence.
I have felt the physical pan, but never what else remains.
Sex was just a game, according to my older teen educators, that everyone wanted to play. ” No,” was just a coy way girls said , “Yes.” They didn’t want to be seen as wanting to. My only other bit of education was walking in on my mom getting off the toilet, asking her why she didn’t have , ” a cowboy,” like me and her reply that she was bad when she was my age and, ” they cut it off.” She was also a child multiple rape victim, by the Baptist minister.
Professionally I also know that there are perhaps as many female perpetrators of both small boys and girls.
Hi Dave
I just don’t know how you survived. Just don’t know how you kept your sanity.
Somebody, very knowledgeable on these matters, said that these perpetrators cannot be “fixed”. Ever. They’re damaged beyond repair. The best you can do is keep them in isolated cells for the rest of their lives. Once they get caught.
Tom
> reading Larry’s post about the hugs made me realize to which degree my kittens fullfill that need, them for me and me for them.
> it became specially clear on the moment the one that had remained just a tiny bit cautious at times, started really coming up to me just for cuddles and well, cat hugging, like when they put their front paws on your face spontaneously, without claws, just kind of an affectionate gesture.
> when he did that it really felt like a load fell off my shoulders, a load that hadn’t been even very clear up to that moment, but the bond with both of them finally falling well into place with all the trust and affection it can keep developing, made me all of a sudden feel so happy and relieved, like things suddennly turned right again.
> I had been waking up that night feeling my fear, trying not to focus it this time on anything in particular, which seemed to make it more threatening, more like a physical kind of thing which originally it probably was.
> it is just the onset of the Big fear, the I won’t make it fear, but that onset already felt pretty daunting.
>
> but then the kitten thing changed my mood at waking up, they had a few kitten illnesses too, no, not from vaccinating, they had it early on as small kittens and still need to get completely rid of it, but they are getting better now, full of energy and so endearing and funny.
>
> they are tiny still, but managed to work out al by themselves how to use the cat doors, which is impressive at their age and without being showed.
> haha, I am proud of my little guys, smiley!!
> they look like two rascals, whitish with like a dark mask on their faces, and a dark tail, and just a small dark spot here and there.
> M
> dear Jo, don’t know what to say, except I feel I wish I could comfort you by putting my arms around you.
> it is so courageous of you to write it here. it sounds so very horrible, were you able to tell it to anyone at all at that time?
> ox M
Margaret, that’s so sweet, thank you..
I didn’t tell anyone at all till the group. It got tucked away, and I was a single parent, so juggling domestic life went on..
Hi Jo
I am with Larry on this. I could also kill anyone who would do such a thing. And for you to have to live this most of your life. What a weight on your shoulders, and in your soul.
Tom
The trouble with allowing an outburst of anger is that is clouds everything – for example – it feels so wrong NOT to be acknowledging Jo and her pain right now. This seems to be the result of a guilt-trip-how-do-you-think other-people-are-feeling-and-don’t-you-think-you-should-think-about-how-they-might-need-you-to-do-for-the-right-thing-now upbringing. I can’t keep living that way. I do not want my actions to be shaped by the expectations of others. I have had enough of that servitude!
[Please do not take this as anything personal to you Jo – as you know, I am far from unsympathetic or un-affected by your story – I just cant feel or respond to that kind of hurt when I am stuck in another]
The angry viciousness that I can vomit over people deserving of my ire is terrible. I admit – it has even made me laugh in hindsight, when unleashed on perv hecklers in a white van, but my brother once crowned me with the title of having a ‘diamond tipped tongue’ because I could be so sharp and cutting. Never mind ‘F’ words and regular insults – lets cut straight to the most private personal hurtful stuff! Lets ‘cut ’em’! Stab deep and hurt ’em!
I did it once to my wonderful woman – but never again will I ‘let go’like that on her! I feel so bad about that even all these years later.
There is a fitting visual analogy of screwing up a piece of paper into a ball…. and then imagine trying to smooth it out once again. Trying to make it pristine and flat once again is impossible. It will always be crumpled. THAT is how I feel about getting angry AT someone! If I let go and ‘say how I feel’ I might ‘break something’ permanently! Mar it forever so all I am left with is a crumpled piece of paper. Damaged permanently.
And yet I crave it! I want it! I want the release and the relief. I want the shock in their eyes, and to lash out with the hurt. I enjoy the cuts and the skill I have to ‘see’ the worst thing anyone could possibly say! When I am angry like I am now I want to let it all go.
….and then how would I feel tomorrow looking at all the reams of screwed up paper
…. and now I am thinking of who deserves all of this anger? who is the originator of all this hurt that sits like a festering sore within me?
I can see a bloodline…
I have to trace it back
but I know where it started
Hi Fiona
Oh my. Let it rip. Don’t hold back. It is outrageous what was done to you.
Larry and I will be right behind you.
( Here I go talking on Larry’s behalf)
Tom
Just sticking this CDC info on Lyme Disease in here; new information:
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),
An estimated 300,000 Americans are diagnosed with Lyme disease each year, and the prevalence is rising.
Since national surveillance began in 1982, the number of annual Lyme cases reported has increased nearly 25-fold.2 The disease is also spreading out geographically.3
Between 1993 and 1997, 43 counties across the US had a high incidence of Lyme disease. By 2012, the number of hotspots had skyrocketed to 182. As reported by Time Magazine:4
“‘Lyme disease is not only becoming more rampant in its normal hotspot of the northeast United States, it’s spreading across the country,’ a new report5 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns.
There is no definitive test for Lyme Disease until well into it’s progression. And the symptomology
is far more diverse than the original classic description. Most infected people may not have the characteristic rash. It mimics many other culprits, fibromyalgia, arthritis, cellulitis, etc., leaving it thr most under diagnosed and undiagnosed serious infectious disease. The situation is further worsened by there being so few practitioners who know how to treat Lyme Disease. Practitioners should contact the CDC to obtain the proper protocol.
‘Over time, the number of counties identified as having high incidence of Lyme disease in the northeastern states increased more than 320 percent,’ researchers write…
They also note that the disease is appearing in states where it has never been recorded before. One big reason why Lyme disease is spiking, according to the CDC report: climate change.”6
Eliminating Predators Have Allowed Lyme Disease to Spread and Become More Prevalent
While deer usually gets the blame for spreading tick-borne disease, rodents are actually the primary threat. According to Dr. Richard Ostfeld, a disease ecologist at the Lyme disease research center:
“The resurgence of deer population is an overblown factor. Our research suggests that white-footed mice are more important numerically. Basically, mice are a fantastic host for both the tick and [the bacteria that causes Lyme].”
Ticks are not born with the Lyme spirochetes. It picks up the bacteria when feeding on an infected host.8 Ostfeld’s research indicates that white-footed mice infect 75-95 percent of larval ticks that feed on them, while deer only infect about one percent.
Urban sprawl and hunting has eliminated many of the mice’s natural predators, allowing populations to grow, and with them comes infected ticks. This year, ticks are epidemic in certain areas of the US, including Illinois.
The CDC has identified high-risk counties in 17 states, including Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, Pennsylvania, Virginia, New York, Iowa, Michigan, and Minnesota.
I am just so exhausted. The heat, the mugginess, my old feeling of exhaustion. I am tired of everything. I cant stand work. These pets we have are so needy. The cat who won’t eat, I am too tired to force feed it. I am too tired to write down when I give it its medicine. The other fucking cat meowling howling at my bedroom door. His cryptocaucus medicine, did I give it to him today or not? All these illnesses we are having seem to be bird or mice feces-related, at least from what I see on the internet. I have mice in the garage, I have a giant tree in the backyard and big spots of white bird shit from some hawks that come around. I walk in the park with the dogs where there are tons of dirty ducks, pigeons, and fart birds, and reclaimed watered lawns. If man thinks he is at the top of the food chain, he better think again. The bugs will outlive us all. I could have screamed in the car because pain is rising (around Otto having died). I could not scream since I was driving Z to get some food and she does not like to hear my pain. I saw a Dachshund puppy in the hall of the hospital today, and I could feel the pain coming up and I squelched it so easy. They don’t want me crying or screaming at work, even though there was a patient roaming around the halls laughing maniacally. I am tired from holding this pain in, but now tonight 9:35 pm, I have no desire to feel it. Fuck this shit. PT is difficult no matter what.
I will write down here as it get’s too ‘skinny’ The blog seems to have taken a ‘law and order’ type turn which to me in never particularly a good sign. People usually go to ‘law and order’ when they are out of answers
Larry – when you talk about ‘aborting deviants’ etc it has a bad ring to it. On primal therapy/theory’s own premises I thought anything and everything could not just be ‘understood’ but it could also be ‘cured’. Now we seem to be heading into the area of punishments and even drastic cruelty. If these ‘perpetrators’ are so cruel your ‘punishments’ don’t sound that different. Also I don’t care for the distinctions you make a lot now about the difference between ‘primal people’ and just ‘regular people’. I guess I am tempted to ‘joke’ I would not mind so much if there WAS a difference lol. When you talked about the Iraqi hair dresser guy and how you ‘dismantled’ his ideas or world view or whatever……………..it sounds so condescending like you KNOW so much or KNOW something he does not. Do you? Where does all this ‘special knowledge’ come from and again my little ‘joke’ I would not mind if it WAS ‘special knowledge’ but I can’t see it from here……………if primal people are so different and so much better the world has been waiting for over 40 years now and we still don’t see the ‘impact’ or the ‘evidence’
Tom – when you talk about ‘locking’ people up and so on…………….I am tempted to ‘joke’ (a bad habit I have) of saying you mean like Palestinians?. You said “Somebody, very knowledgeable on these matters, said that these perpetrators cannot be “fixed”. ” OK going along that way of thinking can Israels ever be ‘fixed’ or do we just have to suffer them fomenting and creating new wars, murdering and ethnically cleansing the people who have lived their for centuries and whose land it is not theirs, spinning disinformation and lies forever and ever………………..see where I am going with this?. To me you’all have a bad habit now of calling the kettle black the pot seems just as black if not blacker to me.
It’s fine of course if people want to say all of these things that’s what the blog is about. But to me it shows a ‘movement’ running out of ideas and I suppose it is hardly surprising…………….because frustration sets in due to the lack of promises fulfilled. Janov set primal off on a narrow path and it seems to be getting narrower………………….
Patrick
We are lucky to have you around to keep us on the straight and narrow.
It’s good to have you point out the error of our ways.
We are blessed with your wisdom about the lack of progress in Primal Therapy and the error of our Primal Therapists.
Your wisdom outshines all of our collective experience and knowledge to date.
I bow to your vast and deep knowledge of the issues affecting these stupid Jews and the havoc they bring to the peace loving Arabs.
Keep up the good work. You are a born to lead us to the Griffin light.
Tom
humanitarian. A blessing to us idiotic mortals.
I can’t wait to join the Griffin Cult, as soon as you announce you are opening your doors to us, wayward primal dilitants.
I imagine Arthur Janov will be your first applicant. He will see the error if his ways and now to your wisdom.
Oh mighty Patrick. Hope you will bless us all and forgive us for our
Thank you Brother Tom. My ‘clinic’ will be opening ‘soon’ a few million light years from now and in a galaxy far far away………….but I am taking ‘contributions’ already! Right now here today…………..please send the all to “C/O “The Ultimate Guru” PO box something or other, Somewhere or other, Main St, USA
I had kind of ‘decided’ to stay off the blog for a while at least…………but for some reason it’s hard to do that. What is the reason?
It’s like (in my mind) I am trying to keep PT from going ‘off the rails’ but now I think well what if it HAS gone off the rails? I think that is a big ‘old feeling’ for me……………trying to fix something that is already maybe un-fixablely broken
I wonder if that will get me a ‘pass’ from Jack.(I have related it to an ‘old feeling’)………………who knows I know he is not strong on ‘law and order’ also so I have that on my side but probably not enough. With Jack it never is enough at least from me
I think what is so hard for me to stay off the blog is WHERE ELSE can you do just say whatever is on my mind……………………
Quote:- “I had kind of ‘decided’ to stay off the blog for a while at least…………but for some reason it’s hard to do that. What is the reason?”
I don’t think it’s too hard to figure out why you kept off the blog and equally, not that hard to figure out why you couldn’t.
Have you given Gretchen’s question a second thought … before it gets lost to your mindful oblivion?
Another quote:- “I think that is a big ‘old feeling’ for me……………trying to fix something that is already maybe un-fixablely broken”. I would guess that is correct … BUT (just MY feeling) what got broken and is un-fixable is your own childhood … that, I suspect, is what Leslie Pam tried to guide you towards … least ways “reliving”. It would seem you have made a transference from there; to it being “Primal Therapy that’s gone off the rails” There!!! I made the pass.
Yet another quote:- “I think what is so hard for me to stay off the blog is WHERE ELSE can you do just say whatever is on my mind……………………”. You could try expressing your FEELINGS … but then that may completely BLOW your mind. Just a thought
One last quote for today:- “I came here ……. 37 years ago, now from all appearances he was married to Vivian at the time and for several more years after that as far as anyone knew at least”. Be careful; appearances can be deceiving.
No you didn’t make/give me the ‘pass’ you as usual DENIED me the ‘pass’. What else is new? Nothing ‘new’ for you for sure it’s just as case of yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep………………at least you ‘agree’ with yourself if not with much else
Speaking of something on my mind…………..I just read this
From Art Janov’s latest blog about his wife France
“And oh yes, she is my wife of 42 years”
I mention this because in the video with Ortiz he also says that. I was inclined to think oh well just a mistake but here he is saying it again and putting it in writing now. OK let me check this……………I came here in September 1978 which was almost 37 years ago, now from all appearances he was married to Vivian at the time and for several more years after that as far as anyone knew at least.
So does he mean 32 years? But if he does why has now said over 40 twice that I know of. I am sure people will find this ridiculous of me to even mention this…………………but it just seems a bit typical of the guy at least an ‘exaggerator’ if not an out right ‘liar’ though I would say an outright liar also………………It is never good to be ‘led’ by a person who has a problem telling the truth…………….
You might think so Leslie and I can even see why you might say that………………still it is a small matter but Janov is an atrocious ‘exaggerator’ always was always will be it seems. All that I say above is ‘factual’ even if I accept the ‘importance’ of it could be questioned.
Still Janov is so slippery in ‘important’ things it is nice for me at least to ‘catch’ him in a clear un-truth………………and my feeling is there are many more (lies) where that comes from……….
Patrick I’m not at all familiar with any slippery side things to Dr. Janov. What are they ? Being 91, an occasional slip might be a factor. Although he sounds perfectly acute and articulate on his blog.
david
David – to me he has been an ‘exaggerator’ pretty much from Day 1.It hit me like a ton of bricks when I came here, like this is NOT what was ‘advertised’. But my ‘belief’ was strong very strong even so I ‘over looked’ a lot. Actually my belief is still strong that’s the funny thing. But my feeling now is primal needs to be taken out of the institution(s) that kind of corral or control it. And that includes Janov himself as strange as that may sound. In ‘spiritual’; matters truth is very important. Someone who fudges and exaggerates and depicts his ‘success’ un-realistically and hides and literally buries his failures is not a trust worthy person..That’s very basic. This example about how long he has been married is a trivial one but still seems a bit typical of him………………loose with the truth. That is such a big problem for me at least.And co-incidence or not I have noticed the same quality in what I call ‘true believers’ you would pretty HAVE to be loose with the truth to overlook all that has gone on over the years.
I truly wonder who “is failing to experience” here……………I know you have ‘anointed’ yourself and ‘appointed’ yourself…………..does not make it true………………PR is a funny thing it often even fools the people who perpetrate it…………….it’s very strange for you to just ‘decide’ I don’t experience something just because I have a problem with the ‘official’ primal world………………that’s not so much crooked thinking as very limited and blinkered thinking…………………but keep on cawing your un-musical hate……………….PR man…………..
I was even aware as I used the word ‘belief’ it would be a red rag to the self anointed and self appointed blood hound of primal………….as are and would be words like ‘think’ or ‘mind’…………….I am dealing with someone who mostly just ‘reacts’ and in a highly defensive and aggressive way all at the same time…………..that’s not good PR for you if you could only see PR man………….talk about being predictable…………..all I have to do to rouse this hound is use the WORD ‘think”……………..it’s ONLY a word dude……………..no need to get hung up on words you need it seems to get more hung up on someone hung……………….this is all ‘substitute’ activity for you dude…………..as I say it’s only ‘words’………………
It was you who admitted to having failed, so I just put your own words back to you.
Other evidence would be ‘paying out’ to go to a retreat and then, I gather, leaving on day one, just because someone refused to shake your hand. Also thinking “what’s the point” when your therapist asks what you hope to get. Berating the founder for personal reasons and completely ignoring what he discovered. You surely must have thought something from your squat in Brixton before coming across the pond and paying out all the money you did … now seemingly regretting it. Yet you seem to persist in “believing”. Isn’t that what RELIGION is all about????? since there is no proof
It sure is all just words … BUT just scattering words on the blog, with seemingly little “think-through” suggest a failure to communicate. In the end, all there is to communicate are FEELINGS.
I am eagerly awaiting for you to tell Gretchen and the rest of us what it is that like about blogging here. It seems from the way I read you, that you are in perpetual state of misery, which makes me all the more curious to find out why you continue. Perhaps is sort of masachism. It’s hard to fathom any other reason.
Lighten up dude. I personally love the banter … can’t you tell.
Tom, very funny. Jo, though I’ve never met you, was so moved by your account.
It seems a matter of the shut-offed ones using their buried pains to victimize someone. To take it out on someone else and become the perpetrator, totally unconscious of where it comes from. They become less human objectifying people. I think the punishment (as they would see it) would be to lock them up and work a therapy where they descended down to the feelings that made them monsters, to relive their initial pains. If jails were more rehabilitation than holding cells then we could re-humanize more offenders. But as others have said, psychopaths are practically untreatable; so the offender would have to have a conscience somewhere in their self.
Sylvia – I think this business of ‘psycho-paths’ is over done. I remember once Janov said they could not be treated but a lot of it is a matter of ‘definition’ or more importantly who is doing the defining. A case could be made that Janov himself is a ‘psychopath’…………..lure people with a bunch of exaggerated promises but WORSE never to ‘back off’ or admit he might have ‘exaggerated’ To me that pretty much is a ‘psychopath’ even if I don’t agree with calling people nasty names. Like Tom with ‘locking people up’ it is mostly a matter of who has the power.
My definition of a psychopath would be someone who is criminal who tries to hurt someone–murder, rape, someone beyond redemption. But there are benign psychopaths in my opinion. Someone who simply does not have empathy for another, unable to relate to that person’s pain. And perhaps only see things in the light of how it may benefit them.
I’m sure there are in the psychological dictionary a more accurate definition.
At work today I was looking at a copy of “New York” magazine whileeating lunch. On the cover were photos of 35 women who say BillCosby raped them. Their stories are believable. According to the article there are a total of 46women now with these accusations against Cosby. Probably everyonealready knows about this, his method is to use drugs. It seems likehe’s a psychopath of some kind. I think psychopaths can function in society and fool people into thinking they’re normal.Phil
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 18:56:39 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes, Phil. Felt physically ill about what he did; a true wolf in sheep’s clothing. Totally unsuspecting women. He seems to have a power fixation, predatory personality lobotomized from its original source probably.
By lobotomized I mean he is so ingrained in his abhorrent activities that he can never go back to the reasons they came about. So much for big words.
S
Jack, you are always looking for thinking outside the box. Here is some that surprised me.
“Measures such as anti-bullying programs and monitoring young offenders are not yielding success, says Stephanie van Goozen, ar Cardiff University, UK. Her team decided to try a different approach, using the theory that people who harm others do so because they can’t tell that their victim is distressed. Research has shown that adult psychopaths struggle to recognise others’ fear.
Van Goozen’s team trained half of a group of 50 boys who had been convicted of a crime to better recognise facial expressions.
They found that the training significantly improved the boys’ ability to recognise fear, anger and sadness,..
…in those who’d had training, the crimes were significantly less violent and severe, tending to involve theft rather than physical aggression.”
Wow, surprised to hear that…. lol… child sexual abuse protection programs, ” Just Say No, ” were a failure; placed some responsibility on the target, and 3 months after exposure all that remained was that the kids had disconnected fears . Like all of the ineffective sensitivity programs which give the image that management is doing something to fix the problem.
I would suggest the reason they don’t work is that the dialogue is aimed at the wrong part of the brain, the conscious mind, where as you all know their behaviour is directed by the unconscious mind, the one that they don’t talk to. It seems possible to communicate with the sub conscious but it won’t listen if it is preached to or addressed in negative expressions. I use it to recall ,” stored, ” info and song lyrics, and poetry I once , ” knew,” / had memorized; whatever that is…
AS often guilty, I only read half of the salient comments. Larry I wonder if looking at the pictures of emotional state faces, might make an impression, a feeling impression, reaching their subconscious. ??? That old saying , ” You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, ” has some wisdom to it. Even clinical wisdom. I treated my abused horses with kindness. If that didn’t work, nothing would.
Larry: I find most of the studies I encounter, start of with a theory and then extrapolated from that theory whatever they can to back up the theory. The complete reverse to what I feel I know, Art Janov did. The theory came well after seeking to explain something he, in his honesty and integrity, could not explain immediately, in spite of his 17 years in his therapeutic practice.
Let me relate something from my own teen years that happened to me. My mother asked me to go and get my brother who she could see climbing onto a roof of a nearby building through the window. I went off and told him to come down and he refused. So! I climbed up after him and started to pull on his leg, and my brother did come down and ran into my mother and said I was bullying him. When my father arrived later that day from work my mother related the story to my father. I immediately ran to the bathroom and sat on the toilet hoping that my father would leave me alone whilst I thought out a strategy.
My father came bursting into the bathroom and beat me up for bullying. I was so distressed, but I remember very clearly going onto my bed afterwards and I said to myself. I will never cry again.
My bother and I, in out adulthood, did discuss many of these incident and it was only then I realized he had a whole different take on it all
It wasn’t until one lover left me that I cried for the first time, as I remember, in my adult life.
The morale of the story for me was:- who is calling who the bully? Some child having been so hurt in childhood will act-it-out on another, since he/she could never be direct with the parent. That to me is the essence of what I feel Janov means when he states that trauma to the fetus, baby, young child alters the brain to a very profound degree. There’s no reversing the damage. there is, as I perceive it, only the means to re-live it and hence bring the now adult child to his/her own insights with respect to the past. I contend … nothing else will effectively change behavior.
The boys trained in the study I quoted might be the benign type of psychopath that Sylvia mentioned on July 30.
For me the gist of much of the recent blog discussion boils down to there being people out there who would hurt me or would hurt people who I care about, and it drives me crazy that I might be helpless to stop them.
Noreen died almost 6 years ago. My boss retires today, and my role at work is fading. I feel that I’m being stripped of the mainstays that gave my life meaning and purpose. I’m being robbed, my life ripped apart, and I have no control over it. I’m left back at the beginning again, having to start my life all over again. I cry sadness about the endings.
I scream feeling afraid, having to find my way and build my life in an unknown future, again, alone.
I scream as a small child or baby having to cope with change alone, when she should be there. But there’s no one and I am very vulnerable. I need her. I can’t survive on my own alone.
After ascending from the childhood feelings, after understanding and being relieved of some of the emotional charge of their terror through briefly reliving and feeling them, I feel more capable of getting on with the change coming to my life, more realistically, more competently, in my world that for me is mostly benign most of the time. After ascending from the childhood feelings, I’m able to feel it’s possible to find happiness, meaning, and even love out there, all over again.
Let’s try this……………….’mind’…………..’think’………………’belief……………………will this make the blood hound chase.?………..if the past is anything to go by……………………….yes………………….and with this ‘mindset’ (that should get work to get him going)………………….the past is everything……………predictable and controlled and attempt to be controlling………………..
Blood hounds of course is a very old and ‘respectable’ English tradition………………they started it with hares but moved on to humans and as I said before they practiced it and perfected it on the Irish and then carried it onto the rest of the world………………still seem to be practicing it on the Irish………………well I am glad this Irish has the strength and self respect not to just lay down and get bloodied and killed………………..
I feel disconnected. Even my response to Larry above was an attempt to connect with those on the blog. In retrospect, Larry, I do not feel connected to what you are going through: it only makes sense on an intellectual level to me. At this time, I can only relate to it in the context of a cognitive understanding of how therapy works.
Just let out some anger about reactions I had to 2 specific people today. The feeling is that I am being overpowered by being out-talked, and cannot even express my own feelings never mind defend myself successfully. The reality was not all that dramatic: nothing at all to the third party bystander. I am anticipating that I will need to argue my case with these people.
I like that kind of honesty…………….not that common here IMHO.But then again Donal is Irish more ‘truthful’ without even trying just an everyday way of being……………..not much of a PR man and thank God for that……………..PR is a son of a bitch to deal with as well since you are always dealing with PR…………..questions about PR will be met with more PR
Guru – Welcome back you HAVE been missed at least to speak for myself. Did you get any ‘contributions’ but I told people to send them c/o “The Ultimate Guru”……………..does it also need to say “Superstar” in it. Plus I was not sure about your address and something send to a faraway Galaxy would need to be precise I imagine…………….
Whenever I spoke with Larry over the phone it always commenced with the default salutation: “This is Larry speaking.” There’s nothing wrong with it at all, but it always struck me as slightly amusing and distinctive for some reason, perhaps a distant conference room feel to it. I hope Larry doesn’t mind my saying this. Nothing important.
Thank you for your well wishes, Patrick, but I don’t have much more to say. Just…not much of a point to it. Not to dredge up old frictions for you because I do see you as a much-needed Devil’s Advocate to keep Janov on his toes, but even I had to admit you weren’t very nice to Vicki the other week.
One time many years ago I told Vicki something that I didn’t imagine would be an insult, but she was hurt by it and it still bothers me slightly even to this day. Did Vicki ever do anything bad to you, Patrick? I may not agree with Vicki on some things, but she was always nice to me and I do have fond memories of visiting her house way back when.
U. superstar G: Quote:- “I do see you as a much-needed Devil’s Advocate to keep Janov on his toes, ”
I doubt Arthur Janov even reads this blog and even if he did, I sure doubt that Patrick is keeping him on his toes. My take:- neither you nor Pactrick is capable of that.
It is my feeling that Patrick wishes to re-organise Primal Thereapy such that it makes it easy for him to do the therapy … finally. The current method I suspect Patrick finds too terryfying …. so! needs to make it easier … then he can claim sucess on two fronts. First his own ego that he was able to improve it, and second to feel he’s now done it.
I feel there is something going on with both of you about Art Janov. Just me feeling however.
I’ve been preoccupied and busy with various things. I hope your retirement carries forward well for you, Larry. I’m confident you will find plenty of meaningful activities and experiences to enrich yourself with despite the newly-empty schedule ahead of you.
Send me an email or call sometime. I’m just going to dart in and out of here once in a while, myself.
I hope anyone here does not feel ‘intimidated’. I mean if say Leslie and Jo and say Sandy can all carry on on their “Love Boat”………….they need pay no attention to the likes of Jack and myself just let us carry on in our ‘Hate Boat”………….it takes all kinds to make a world as they say…………….it’s all good lol……………..
I had a good conversation with Larry last night. It really helped to talk to him about the feelings I wrote about above just before he called me. I also like listening to him talk about his life and feelings.
Donal
Yes, long time no hear. Thanks for your blessings. I hope you find what you need here on the blog. With the exception of two well-defined and contained problems for me to solve, all else is as well as can be expected at the moment.
So! you are hiding your talents under the bushel. I suspect you’ve been doing that all along. Still I thought this might have been something to share. There seems to be little of it out there in the world.;( .
I was actually embarrassed being labelled after a sweet confection like that. It might have worked against me in the long run since sweet sugar plum people may be the low-hanging fruit ripe for the plucking by the piranhas and sharks of the world.
> haha, UG, thanks, you put a smile on htis sugar plum’s face, M
> I find it very nice your grandma called you that occasionally. piranhas go more for the wounded and bleeding, not so much for the sugar plums I guess.. maybe bonobos do so more and flying dogs..
> haven’t spotted too many of those here..
> M
I secretly wish my grandma would have called me a tangy pomegranate, instead. It would have enabled right blend of sweet sociability, yet sour and cranky enough not to be taken advantage of by emotional and financial manipulators (aka sharks and piranhas).
Huh?? Seems Dr. Jaove still uses the word, ” Primal, ” to describe a feeling event:
To understand more about how abreaction works, let’s see what happens when a session goes off track.
As we now know, there is a critical window during a session when the patient brings in a certain feeling, say, helplessness. If the therapist does not act to help the person delve into the feeling it very well may be too late, later on in the session. When the therapist does not strike at the critical moment, the specific feeling/frequency the patient came in with is now gone. What the patient will be left with is abreaction, the discharge of a secondary feeling, not the key one she brought in. That means no resolution and integration of feeling because the feeling has not been felt. When we measure vital functions after the session, the signs move in sporadic fashion. They do not move in coordinated ways but as though each function moves at a different pace. They seem to have lost their cohesion, which tells us that no primal has occurred.
I’m curious why you are puzzled David. I have feeling events that have more to do with pain in the present or recent past that I don’t think of as primals, whereas a feeling event that I’ve unconsciously locked in for decades before I started therapy and finally let into consciousness and let myself experience… to me is a primal.
Without arguing the terminology, I will agree that there are especially acute moments that need to be acted upon at a precise time because a bad feeling can slip away from you like an eel in a stream and is lost.
There have been many times where I was very close to crying about something and I can’t reach the right person in time; it slips away back into the shuffle of my everyday thoughts.
LOL I was being facetious, Larry, as I have read posts that suggested it was an old fashioned, outdated idea, – concept….primal, primaling… I think it’s the hallmark, the defining of PT. Barry once told me Art wished he’d named it something else, Barry thought, like call it Janovian Therapy, because no one would say they’d just had a , “Janov” LOL Wouldn’t there be a field day with that, if he had named it after himself, feeding into the pompiety perception; LOL although never heard that criticism of Freud, Jung, et al LOL
I find this comment of yours David somewhat confusing, for whereas it apears to be quoting Janov’s recent blog article:- “On the Difference Between Abreaction and Feeling (Part 3/9)” you David, did not clearly show this on reading it. I needed to read Art’s blog comment twice, before I was somewhat clear as to what Art was getting at. For me, it wasn’t his clearest of blog articles
Let me state as briefly as I can the differences, as I sence them between Art Jonov’s blog, The Primal Institutes blog, and the Primal Support Groups blog that Phil moderates.
Art’s blog is not open to counter comments, though one can, and I have, but the counter comments are not published
The Institutes blog is more of a free for all to express themselves about what bloggers think, feel and experience. Giving one another feed-back … hopefully..
The Primal Support Group is meant for those that are “self Primaling” and as such the moderators try to keep it a safe enviroment for those describing their feelings and primarily feeling expereinces. If a “self Primaler” reads Janov and for reasons of their own are not able to get to Los Angeles OR afford the therapy even if they did get here … then attempt to do the therapy themselves. Then there are the others that read the book/s hope to get the therapy because they are deeply suffering … and without knowing it drop into deep feelings willy nilly. The former to me is at a great risk to ‘abreacting’. the later can, I feel. do “Feeling Therapy”, since I contend, no-one has a monopaly on feelings. “Primal Therapy” belongs to the Janov’s and their respective centers/institutions.
Each of them have their separate uses, as I see it.
Back to Art’s recent article. On first reading it did appear to be attacking those “self priamlers” and demonstrating the problems for those attempting to do their own Primal Therapy (for whatever their reasoning was/is). I contend that what is deemed a “reliving” of a past feeling event is not new (1967) and that many instances throughout history seem to demonstrate this. What appeares to be the problem is, in hindsight, related to the persons prior knowlege/learning. (Religeon being, as I sense it, the major one). In other words after ‘re-living’ an old event’, one scrambles to explain it via their current knowledge.
It is here where I concur totally with Larry. I would prefer to ALWAYS refer to my experiences as FEELINGS. And best I can keep away from the word “Primal” However there are two types of feelings for me. Those that are simply memory related … and the other “RE-LIVING” which is (initially) unbelievably profound, deep and somewhat disturbing, if one is not aware of the difference; it is here I feel one can go of on a tangent; (Abreacting). Janov coined the former for his own good purpose:- “A PRIMAL”
Jack; What tha ??? What post are you replying to ?? It seems that unless everything is labeled here like on an autopsy table it gets misconstrued. I never commented in any intent that would be solicitous of this rebuff. Mind you love rebuffs. Man I’ve got to take a communications course. I generally recognize intent even in the printed word. If not for some ability to interpret the printed page satirists before the day of the tube and emoticoms, and acronyms, would have been hard pressed to eke out a living, perhaps dangling at the end of the noose.. LOL
David: I was replying to the post you made on:- August 2, 2015 at 12:40 pm
“Huh?? Seems Dr. Jaove still uses the word, ” Primal, ” to describe a feeling event:
To understand more about how abreaction works, let’s see what happens when a session goes off track”
I wasn’t sure if you were quoting Janov or just plagiarizing him, by rephrasing his words about abreacting. So! in all conceit and arrogance, decided to put my take on his comment cos I did not think he was as clear as I normally find him to be.
I was inspired to do this when a friend of mine in Belgrade, Serbia, who is self primaling was disturbed reading this most recent comment by Janov and thought others might also feel the same. My friend in Belgrade was somewhat assured by my response to him .. which pleased me. Hence, I thought to put my take to your comment on the blog.
Aaa, My purpose in posting that was I was just being weak and humanly facetious after being told I was dated, old fashioned, or whatever for using the word , ” primal, primaling,” because the modern PI is on a different page; and then, I follow Dr. Janov’s blog, have since it’s beginning; and lo and behold here is the man himself using the word, ” Primal, ” and in such a way that it seems an indispensable convenience. That word communicates to the anointed what would take a long paragraph to explain. I never checked my post, but if I use quotation marks then it’s a word for word theft of the author’s voice. I would never chance messing with Dr. J’s Barry’s or Gretchen’s voicings, at least on this blog. If I can twist it to my advantage to sound oh so professorial where I won’t get caught, well maybe. .. LOL
Sugar Plum Margaret: Nope, I always had an apple cider party with friends/family after Halloween Trick or Treating as a kid. Turning myself into an apple is off limits.
Hi Everybody
Yesterday, I decided to go out to the cemetery, as I haven’t been there for some months. Not that I don’t think of going there many times during each and every day.
Why?
Well, you all know by now my fantasy, that by being near my mum’s grave, the “super natural” will happen, and she will reach out to me, hold me, be one with me.
Well, anyway, I did go.
I first stood in front of my mum’s grave. Then I moved across the isle to my grandmother’s grave, my mum’s mum. I am reading her epitaph. Then my eyes drop down onto the flat surface. And there is an inscription that says:
In memory of my father, Ernest Sonntag, who perished in the Holocaust.
That’s my mum’s dad, my grandpa, whom I never saw, never met, but none the less I always miss him, want him. He would’ve been my family, someone I could turn to. He starved to death in Flossenburg Concentration Camp, exactly one month before liberation. He survived five months in that hell hole.
To this day, I have no clue why I get so emotional when I think of him. ” I din’t know deceased people can reach out of their grave, and affect living souls/people. So perhaps my quest for my mum’s attention isn’t so far fetched, after all. Right?
By now, am crying in front of grandma’s grave.
Then I walk down forty graves, and there is my dad’s grave. Why were you so mean to me? Why couldn’t we be ‘friends”?
Then I walk back to my mum’s grave. Mum!!!!!!! Do your staff!!!!!!
Why didn’t you let me go visiting grandma when I was ten years old in Budapest? Why? I wanted to be with her. Talk to her.
Then over to my grandma’s grave again. Papa!!!!!! My Papa!!!!!!!!! Where are you??????
So on and so on. As I approached my dad’s grave again I realised I felt like a dog.
Yes, like a dog looking for his master. Or looking for a master. Like a poor lonely dog. Wanting something from my master. A pat, a word, anything. I will die on the street. I felt so lonely.
Where do I belong? Who keeps an eye on me. I am the oldest on this continent, of my family. Who can I go to? I am so, so lonely. Feel like dying.
And by now an am sobbing in the cemetery. There is a father with two kids visiting a grave. They are looking at me. And I am hurting.
Don’t know why I am telling you all this.
Tom
Hi David
I am left clueless. Just hurting. Hurting non-stop.
Not having had that original bond with my mum, left me disconnected, alienated and incredibly lonely, to which I am only now just starting to own up to.
My most vivid flashbacks, which aren’t too many of, are always me lonely, ending up me feeling ‘not wanted’.
One scene, me about 8-9 years old, coming home after an afternoon of playing soccer with friends in the field and finding that nobody was home. ‘How could you do this to me?’ Not even a key, or a note. Just nobody home.
The next scene is me walking the streets of Bruxelle, Belgium, while immigrating. Not a single friend. Dad at work. Mum home, but eternally unavailable emotionally.
To lessen the pain of me feeling so lonely, I’d end up going to the movies, 2,3, even 4 times a day, to take my mind of feeling so miserable.
Next scene is in Sydney. My grandma’s oldest friend found me on a street corner, sobbing my eyes out. I was so utterly lonely. Being a new immigrant, had no friends. Both parents working. Made arrangements after me complaining about not having dinner till late in the evening, with local small restaurant, which would at least feed me five days a week.
Then the drudgery of going home to an empty place. Devoid of humans, of emotional and physical contact with anyone.
So David, that’s part of the answer to your question. Not all of it.
Tom
I’ve never heard you say so much before, so clearly, about your life, Tom. You and your family endured horrible tragedy, and there was never anyone there to help you, a child, through it. Such a barren life. How DID you survive? No wonder you have such great need! No wonder you don’t want to open to it.
Larry,
I also focus on feelings as they come up: similar to Jack I usually avoid thinking in terms of a “primal”. I find it less confusing, though I am aware of the different levels/types of feelings. When: n I have reactions to people I can often tell if it is an old feeling from childhood underpinning it just has that familiar pattern to it even if I am not that deeply in the feeling.
Sometime I get into deeper, but a lot of the time it comes and goes because I have to stay in the present (like at work, you cannot really go into deep feeling.
The specifics of primal theory are interesting and relevant, but I find trying to keep track of the the technicalities can cloud stuff if I am just trying to deal with my feelings.and see where they lead. As Barry has often told me once you internalize the process you can trust your feelings to go where they need.
Donal.
I’m curious why you are puzzled David. I have feeling events that have more to do with pain in the present or recent past that I don’t think of as primals, whereas a feeling event that I’ve unconsciously locked in for decades before I started therapy and finally let into consciousness and let myself experience… to me is a primal.
Then: August 2 to Donal, ” Yeah I don’t think in terms of a” primal,” either.
You know I don’t use Primal, either, but it’s kind of like trade speak when you meet new like minded but don’t know where they’re at. I differentiate , ” feeling,” which is a life long sensation experience from, ” feelings,” I have feelings for and towards others and about events; and the old feelings. I still hear the word feeling being used to describe what sounds to be a thought to me.
Once comfortably on this path, I really don’t have any words for it, don’t need any. Have come to trust myself. Sometimes I cry just to have my own little pity party. And that’s my right, too. ‘T’ain’t Primaling, but nice to have compassion for myself.
Starting chatting with a gal of many similar interests, guitar, natural health practitioner , too; kind in attitude, old hurts; and then she got afraid of opening up her heart again. I stepped back and then that dying feeling, smothering, urge to struggle with her. And I survived. I wonder if that feeling will ever be put to rest. But now labeled, I just feel it until it wanes; 2 + days this time I don’t know what else to do with it; no dialogue comes with it anymore. I suspect it began long before my known kiddie struggles began to keep my mom alive. Whatever. That’s not productive, so I’ll just feel it.
Reading Tom’s reply to me, I can’t even describe my triggered feelings; it’s like I get propelled into a place of knowing nothing; the feelings are muted but a whole bunch and my body sort of shuts down; my face masks, open mouthed, and I’m numb. I don’t self monitor, but don’t know how else to send the picture. It happens more and more, ending with profound lonely sadness. The earliest connected scene is xmas after my Grampy died; I was 9. I’ve got no one, now, no one to love me or protect me. I pray to him to come and take me to heaven with him, I don’t want to be here anymore no child should have to hurt like this emmpty hopless helpless.
This, I jusyt want to die ” session,” left me wiped out. does anyone have any helpful words to offer, where I might go with this feeling ?? It will be appreciated.
david
David: I hope Gretchen or Barry is able to help you betteer than anyone, in particular me.
All I can do is offer you support … in-so-far as I once had a total re-living expereince that I was dying and I screamed it out at the top of my lungs in a situation that was not particulary safe … I was in a London clinic for the purpose of getting an antibiotic injection. The whole doctors office seemed scared, which didn’t help me. They finally injected me with a tranquilizer and I slowly came out of it, but remained scared out of my wits, for days afterwards.
What I did know was that I was transported to a scene in my very early childhood where I was in-fact, dying. I was flooded with insights afterwards, but I was not able to make total sence of it since at the time I had not read “The Primal Screem” All I could think of was:- IF … that was a memory, then all my previous ideas about what constituted memeory when up in flames.
On reading “The Primal Scream” some seven years later and in particular the introduction about Danny Wilson, the whole thing made total sense to me. I had re-lived a scene from my early childhood and got a whole different take on what my early childhood was about. It was way more than a mere memory.
I guess this comment is mainly to David and Jack. As I understand, the PI and Art Janov went separate ways a long time back. Not sure if they are still connected somehow, but I did not think so. Is n’t it entirely possible that the Pi and him differ significantly in how they approach the therapy sat this point? Same root theory and they probably agree on the core premises/concepts. However, in talking to patients who were at the PI in the late 70s/early 80s, who still go there, their seems to have been changes in the approach since then. In Big group, I have heard from several, people basically had to speak and get to the feeling pretty quickly, as big groups were actually big.
Put another way, Barry and Gretchen may not necessarily agree with all that Art publishes on his blog today, though I am sure they would give him the respect that he has earned. both as the founder of the therapy and a fellow professional who worked with them.
I remember contacting Art’s center before I came to the PI, as I was confused about which one to go to. Talking to Atty and then Barry via phone I got the sense the PI was down to earth, with approachable, nice, normal kind of people with a sense of humor. It made me feel comfortable and safe.
When I started doing therapy at the PI, I like the human approach and was glad there were no big deal made about primals and primalling, I think the therapists rarely use that term. Also, there was no pressure to go anywhere with your feeling,
I did not really get the same sense from Art’s place, For one thing his website materials seemed to contain the premise that getting into a primal was a goal. This seemed worong to me then, and I learned reasonably soon that too much expectation is bad for getting to stuff. A couple of people I talked to on the phone at Art’s place seemed a little, well……off. Certainly they did not have a personalilty like Atty, who is naturally good with talking to people, However, one of the therapists at Art’s place who emailed me a few times seemed nice. By the time she contacted me, however, I had started my 3 week at the PI with Mark.
Donal
The PI references Dr. Janov at the top of the page and on the Home Page as resources to follow. Dr. Janov’s body of ongoing research is impressive. Have you read the New Primal Scream, for starters.
cheers
david
Donal: I will take a shot at answering some of the points you make here, but the real answers lie with Gretchen and Barry
My take was that Art left, initially to start an Institute in France, particularly since he’s fluent in French and his wife France is French. For reasons, unknown to me, it did not reach his expectations, so then he returned to Los Angeles and, I understand, he asked the staff at the Institute, if he could return. I gather that the majority vote was “no”. So he then decided to open his own center here.
Art has always wanted that there was back-up to progress from patients through, primarily, vital signs, where as the Institute, under Vivian did not consider that to be necessary. Seemingly, the patient themselves designated their own progress. Art wanted to take a more scientific rout. I gather his primary interest was to promote his findings (discovery of Primal Pain and his formulation of Primal Theory) from a scientific bases. As I see it, thinking more into the future. Vivian, I gather, did not see the purpose of that. I suspect only the future will decide which was the more expedient way.
Since I never went to the Primal Center I know no other difference. Both insist on an extensive internship for training of therapist. In both cases the goal (if that is the right word) is to take the patient into a more expressive feeling-full-ness, and both feel that is the route to better health. Art’s insistence on the word “Primal”, is obvious to me, since he coined the word in the first place.
I understand although the goal is the same, that both experiment with ways to induce that expressiveness of feelings in patients.
I don’t believe there is an animosity between the therapist at either place, but there is the feeling I gather to keep them as separate entities … least-ways for now
If I am wrong on some of these matters I would be willing to be corrected.
My information is probably just skuttlebut, conjecture and urban myth; but the story told to me on arrival in LA in 86 was that as part of a divorce settlement that Arthur agreed to a , ” no competition,” clause, and sole ownership of the P I was vested in Vivian. Had I known he was no longer at the PI, I might not have come, an emotional based decision, ” the only one skilled enough to cure a difficult case like me.”
When he returned, the talk in the hallway, at the Institutes Big Group, was that the, ” no competition,” clause had expired.
Any of this has at least a 100 % chance of being totally wrong, rumor, invention, fiction…
Further I heard that Dr. Janov’s envisioned new project was to train and certify therapists. For that patients were needed.Then the talk was that many advanced post primal patients presented themselves for therapy at his clinic hoping he might be able to help with issues that had not resolved although they were no longer neurotic and had accessed first line pain. That evolved into chatter about an extremely exciting breakthrough, pre-birth, dare I say it, ” Primals,” that indeed resolved issues such as homosexuality. It was said that that development was accidental, in that they, “Janov clinic,” had no idea what they could possibly offer these patients and just sat with them while they emerged into wordless feelings. And could not relate any impressions as to what they were experiencing. Apparently medical specialists were employed to figure out what was happening using vital signs, blood and hormonal testing. That’s as much as I recall, My own circumstances caused me to have to leave for home to care for my children. And my contact with friends, P I patients and post patients, gradually dwindled.
Then a friend recommended The New Primal Scream to me. I expected it to be the original work, simply re-released. It was much more. Some of what I say above could be my recall of LA conversations plus info from the New P S.
That old, “hope thing,” still reverberates inside me, and with utmost confidence and respect for the competence of the P I; that if I could only be treated by Dr. Janov, the rest of my life could better. At age 69, there’s likely only maybe 40 competent years left…
That’s not real unless I win the lottery, so I’ll dog along. Barry et al helped me put some tools in the tool box and a process I trust. Like the old country song says, ” It’s not real love but it’s not all bad..”
david
I want to share this music video, for the few who may be interested. If I wasn’t in PT, I’d be running for the hills. So glad that instead I have a chance to make something of my life, and it keeps always getting a little better.
I can tell you how the story goes
If you die, if you just get old
All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
Like your mother and your father too
All grown up but they’re just like you
And you’re going to do it all anew
Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Another day older
Everyone you knew
All chasing bells and ahead of themselves
And you know you can’t move
One step forward
Step right back
Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
Run for the hills, don’t look back
Everything you see is double
Any way you go you lose
When you’re lost in the woods and
Alone in the world too
Another day older
And another day we go, oh no
Alone again with all these people
I can tell you how the story goes
If you die, if you just get old
All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
Like your mother and your father too
All grown up but they’re just like you
And you’re going to do it all anew
Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Wanna live like an animal
By the skin of your teeth
Put your good face on, not foolin’ no one
You’re a jackrabbit underneath
One step forward, step right back
Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
Run for the hills, don’t look back
Don’t look back, don’t look back
Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
Run for the hills, don’t look back
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Everything you see is double
Any way you go you lose
When you’re lost in the woods and
Alone in the world too
One step forward, step right back
I can tell you how the story goes
If you die, if you just get old
All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
Like your mother and your father too
All grown up but they’re just like you
And you’re going to do it all anew
Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Larry, I’m glad for you that you recognize things keep getting a little better. and thanks for the song.
david
A here and now fear, since my twisted spinal cord injury last OCT, I began to wonder if I would ever walk a normal, and pain free distance again. Finally every day it’s a bit better and every regression is for shorter periods and intensity, and I’m daring to hope. Now a lot of muscle to rebuild, soon I hope…
hope, so easily crushed, so precious to have, so hard to let go of when there really is no reason for it. I’m glad for you David that you feel improvement.
David and Leslie, I’m glad you enjoyed the song. I like stumbling upon such introspective lyrics almost approaching our primal understanding of our inner life, by a group of young people making leading edge, dynamic music.
I especially like it when the lyrics relate to what is going on in my life. I feel on an edge of aching to open up and live, but hurting, like at a retreat, because to open up is to understand I shut down and died because my parents were dead to me.
Another long day at work today, the second in a row….17 hours yesterday, 13 hours today, long distance travel to research plots and work that needs to get done before the rains starting this evening.
I work with a really good bunch of young people. Today was the last day I’ll see one of the 3 fellas helping me this summer. As we gathered near our vehicles at the field site late in the evening, the work done, he said good-bye, thanked me for a really good summer, and gave me a hug. The hug surprised me. I didn’t think they did that, and said so. The 3 of them said, it’s normal for us, we hug our friends, guys and gals. Real men do, they said. I said yeah, I’m with that, I just didn’t think guys in Saskatchewan hugged. I said to them, you’re real quality people.
It feels really good to know there are young people like them out there. They’d fit right in at a retreat.
Working so many long hours outdoors, sun up to sundown, and the long 3.5 hours drive one way across rolling prairie, partly wooded, takes my mind out of it’s routine and frees it to roam, especially while driving home at night, when the long long ribbon of asphalt becomes mine as it guides me home through now unfamiliar looking, moonlight traced dark terrain. I think of the migration patterns of people, of the aboriginals pushed off the land, the prairie tamed, my grandparents moving in to start a new life, the hard work, the uncertainty, the depression of the 30’s, they’re finding ways to survive and find joy and stay healthy, and then they get old and die, another generation gone, another one created. I think of the coming and going of the great ice sheets, of the extermination of species, of massive extinctions in the far past due the planet freezing, or overheating. And all the while, the same moon, the same sun appeared to whoever or whatever had eyes to see or senses to detect. The sun, the moon, the rumblings of our planet, unchanged for eaons of time, are oblivious to life.
We are alone, our life precarious, brief, precious. Our cultural environment is our invention that takes our mind off how alone we are in the natural environment. If we are lucky we’re here for a lifetime, really a brief time. I was a baby not so long ago and my parents young. Soon it’s over and we are dust. Now is what matters most, is what to appreciate the most, is what to make the most of.
Primal therapy helps me to do that, thank goodness. Otherwise I’d be running for the hills, looking for a way out, wanting to run from the cold, emotionally dead trap my parents were in.
Larry: Our lives are definitely fragile, frail, and infinitesimally small against the backdrop of a huge world. The thought that we are doomed to dissolving into nothing but unintelligible dust forever can be a heavy weight for many of us to bear. At least stillborn babies didn’t have to worry about these things, for instance. It was just an Oriental Express for the stillborns from start to finish, a bit like a short recursive function with almost no operations without all the elaborate hassle of Primal blogging along the way.
David,
For the record, I do have a lot of respect for Art Janov’s work: I believe he does take a scientific approach, and perseveres with researching and developing the therapy more. Most others would have quite at this point: unfortunately primal therapy does not receive the widespread recognition which I think it should. As I understand it, Art has had more than his fair share of criticism from others in his profession.
I did read The New Primal Scream shortly after it was first published, and still have a copy that I pick up every so often. He explained well how the therapy had evolved since the early days when he published the original book.
I did not notice the Pi references on Art’s webpage: assuring to know that he recognizes the PI as a good source.
Donal
Donal,
I remember ordering the “New Primal Scream” back in 1993 after reading Janov’s “Perspective on Cults” editorial/commentary in the LA times (which was in response to the David Koresh Waco siege). I directly ordered it from Art’s training center and marveled at how the book was so new it had a fresh forest wood smell.
I gave my copy away a long time ago, but I still remember the very first paragraph Art wrote: ‘The world is having a nervous breakdown. People are irritable, aggressive, tense, and anxious. The world is coming apart at the seams. Valium is the glue holding it together.”
Henceforth, I knew I was in for a masochistic treat!
I don’t argue against the idea that the world is seriously whacked, but the way Art describes how the world came about being in such a dire condition is not telling the whole story at all.
I already tried to explain to the blog a long time ago how we have hundreds of millions of 4,000 pound vehicular missiles (aka motor vehicles) hurtling about at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour that are tearing apart millions of frail 150-pound corporeal bodies (aka mass-produced human Barbie dolls) each year. Individual first-line, second-line, and third-line emotional traumas don’t even begin to approach a culturally immense, roaring display of horsepower replete with chance-based, modern-day Aztec human sacrifices.
do you know the story of the little boy walking the beach, tossing marooned star fish back into the ocean. Admonished for the nonsensical comparative import of his effort he said, ” It matters to this one.” I have supported pro choice and freely available abortions for years. I’d have chosen dying one death , even at delivery than the price I paid for being born. For those of us who are so forced, I think we should have treatment available that can improve quality of life. It makes it even more defensible to share our discovery.
thanks Margaret; yeah, In that feeling I feel numb, anesthetized, breath very slow and shallow, inanimate. Just talking about it now triggered it, even the sensation of something wrapped around my neck. So feelings must be closer to the top. agreed just feel it as it comes. if I don’t ever finish with feeling it, that’s ok , too. At least I can feel. And know my recollection of early life is real. I’m not crazy or a liar as my mother and sibs would say. I’m freer to live than they with their alcohol and religion soaked lives.
Had a wretched amount of pain yesterday AM, opened my eyes and the story of my daughter’s last days was already playing. The part where I learned they had literally dissected her precious little body, mutilated it beyond any recognition; the mortician, a friend, had to reconstruct her. That released so much pain. How any one could have been so cruel,and then assume a challenging position.
> David,
> I know that one where your face does its own thing, mouth wide open.
> usually my breath starts ‘stopping’ for a while repeatedly as well, with gasps in between.
>
> I usually just let it happen, if I had to put some explanation about it at this time, I’d say it feels like some kind of tension before birth, like labour setting in and I also feel it is just an onset of bad things to follow..
>
> it often is just a fase of another feeling, my crying often seems to go from present to earlier to baby and back to present sadness.
>
> or just an odd tear , there is no rule to follow about this, just you keep following your instincts.
> one useful quote from Barry, always seemed ‘don’t scratch when it does not itch’.
> no chasing of feelings, simply allowing them to come up when they present themselves.
>
> it feels good to me to hear you say you do not monitor yourself when something comes up, that is all it takes really.
>
> for me often whe I allow myself to let the crying stop all of a sudden my body takes over and it starts again when necessary.
>
> it also helps me to stay focused on what triggered it, or the contents of where it leads me.
> pretty obvious, but well, all those things are subtle and also individually slightly different I guess.
>
> all of this might not be of help to you, but I can only give you my own experience with what you seem to describe.
>
> it sounds terrible to want to die as a nine year old.
> I only know how hard it is to feel that way sometimes at waking up early in the morning, by now all I can think of for comfort then is the rational knowledge I remind myself of then I will feel better later on in the day, that feeling of utter despair wil have dissipated while functioning..
>
> hope you can have a nice life and feel what comes up, which seems all we can do.
>
> I have come to the conclusion feeling or having primal stuff dealt with does not make it all easy and ok and happy, but certainly does make it deeper, less shallow, more ‘in control’ than just led by random impulses..
>
> which reminds me of something I always wonder about, Tom, apart from being faced with your huge pain on a day to day basis, do you feel therapy has helped you, and if so in which way?
> M
Hi Margaret
“Has therapy helped me, and if so in which way?”
It’s a good question. It made me think, how will I reply to you. There is no short answer, I think. It’s somewhat more complex than a yes or no.
Have to go back to the beginning. What prompted me to seek help, and how did I get here, meaning Primal Therapy, in 1983.
I’ve ended up in very high pressure jobs. Project Manager on high rise office buildings and major shopping malls. Worked usually seven days a week. I was married and in 1974 my son was born in Melbourne.
I ended up with a headache every single day, a band around my chest constricting me breathing. There was nothing wrong physically. So that meant that ‘ I felt BAD all the time’.
So I started to look around how to help myself. First I was referred to a physiotherapist, as I could barely move my neck, I was so uptight. He in turn, after a few months of treatment referred me to an other place, where people meditated and then shared their feelings.
Now that was new to me.
I mean talking about feelings. I do not recall ever having a discussion with my parents about ‘feelings’. And then my ex wife brought home the Primal Scream for me to read.
After reading a few pages, I knew I wanted to do Primal Therapy. It felt right, it felt like nobody was fucking with me. I am thinking here of my father.
So we, as a family ended up in LA in 1983.
So back to now. Much to my chagrin, I slowly realised that there wan’t a single decision I ever made, that wasn’t coloured, influenced by old feelings. I had no idea how repressed I was. I had no idea how depressed I was.
Yes, I am still somewhat repressed and depressed. But not like it used to be. I am still coming to terms, as I realise more and more how my parents, our history and our circumstances influenced my life. And it still is to a lesser degree.
I’ve been an incorrigible optimist. For ever hoping for a better life. For ever hoping that I will get IT. IT being what I missed out on. And as you and we all know, this isn’t going to happen. Not now, not ever. But it doesn’t stop me going out to the cemetery to ‘make contact with my mum, dad and grandma’. The ache to be united with my mum is unbearable. What kills me that nothing in the present makes up for my loss. I am constantly looking for IT.
On an other note, I think I am a better man. More compassionate. More giving. Even more tolerant than I used to be. I measure my success in therapy as to how my son is doing. How do Suzi’s kids relate to me. How the grand kids come to me. The friendships I’ve developed over the years.
So if I was to measure my success in therapy, I can say that I’ve become a more feeling and concious person.
Is that what I was looking for? No. I wanted to be happy, carefree and enjoying life. I wanted to stop feeling weighed down. Depressed. I didn’t even know the word hopeless before therapy.
Am I where I wanted to be when I started on my quest? No. Probably never will be. Cannot undo the tremendous damage my parents inflicted on me. The hurt, ache and longing I was left with.
I hope this answers your question somewhat. It stirred me up. I didn’t want to take stock as to where I am, because that would, and indeed told me how much further I have to go. I hope I won’t run out of time.
Be well.
Tom
Ummm. I think a lot of us are going to run out of time. If not all, in my experience it’s better to at least get some of the unconscious buried feelings resolved and some of the walls and defenses dismantled. Well worth the journey in my opinion, even if we run out of time before we reach the end.
Yes, I agree – whenever the end is there will always be more to uncover and explore with ourselves and others. Hopefully before then – the good outweighs the bad. The hard times come – whether by random fluke, horrid accidents/injury etc. and/ or triggers to the past .Reacting in the present and then being aware of the connection to the past is huge for me. It makes sense that something can affect each of us to a different degree.
I remember being so afraid to commit to therapy – what if it too wouldn’t work…I asked Gretchen “Well, what would happen if I did therapy and then god forbid had an accident and became a quadriplegic?” Gretchen’s answer of ” I guess you’d then be a quadriplegic who has done Primal Therapy” set it straight.
The places I can go with myself, with B. and our relationship, our children, family and friends is so much deeper than it could/would have ever been. I know that, count on it and love it!
L.
Quote:- “If you carry spare watches in your pockets until your very last day, you are guaranteed to never run out of time..” … BUT you will run out of life.
No, Jack, it’s called making up a terrible pun on the spot just because I felt like writing some graffiti. A careless scribble on the back of a napkin. It has nothing to do with my infinitely awe-inspiring wisdom.
Even without one of those damned, ” LOL’s,” I will take the risk and interpret the watch remark as brilliant humour, and laugh my proverbial ass off; ass as not in donkey…
Well thank you, David, That was a nice compliment and perhaps the very first I’ve noticed from you. As for the watch pun, I really was just…lazily scribbling some graffiti
down for fun and not caring whether anyone was impressed or thought it was funny.
Much of the time when someone writes down something not giving a damn what others think, you will oftentimes see a virtual wasteland of the ordinariness of that person along with occasional glimmers of the very best in that person….little diamond-like morsels in the vast roughness of everyday mundane writings.
Quote:- “Much of the time when someone writes down something not giving a damn what others think, you will oftentimes see a virtual wasteland”.
So what was the big deal about wanting to hide behind a pseudonym, and especially one that seems to spell out ‘one of wisdom’?????
“N” & “O” don ‘t feel like wisdom. BUT then I ain’t no Guru OR, Superstar. However, I would still like to read some real wisdom from within this wasteland..
Jack: Why do you …..feel….that Sylvia, Jo, Vicki, Otto, Phil, Larry, Patrick, Donal, Gretchen, Barry, Leslie, Fiona, Margaret, and Tom all are quite accepting and supportive towards my being the Ultimate Superstar Guru? Aside from a brief power struggle with David early on to maintain my autocratic status, you are the only one who has been persistently hot and bothered by it over the course of time.
With a solid 86% of the blog (if not more!) being completely accepting of my perspicaciousness, I would venture to say your protestations speak volumes more about yourself than it ever does about me.
I am quite at peace and serene about this current situation. Perhaps you would like to spend a bit more time probing the roots of your discontent with those of us here who are more accepting of the Guru?
I totally accept that there is something going on with me about someone doing Primal therapy (which if have it right) is about self revalations of the unconscious parts of oneself and then seeing another that seemingly is hiding behind a psuedenym and of late adding to it. There are many pseudonyms out there, but yours strikes me as being very conceited, and I feel strongly that you actually believe you have “tomes of wisdom” I have repeatedly said both privately to you and on this blog that I see little or no evidence of that wisdom.
Futher, in my stint of ten years in Ibiza in the land of the hippies before coming to do therapy, I became aware of many guru’s and read some of the writing of many. I do not see you falling into that category. But then that’s just me. Even as an actor I saw little reason for changing my name and of those I met that did, I always felt that there was a great element of self promotion (for actors and acting there may be some justification of that as it is an attempt to promotes a livelihood).
You mention the 86% approval rating you are getting. That completely ‘flies over my cucoo’s nest’ Margaret is the only one I see that seems to miss you. Also on this matter I felt you were making fun out a serious comment by Leslie … again to me, completey making a joke of it. I did not like that. Of course I should have said just that. I don’t like your ‘schnide’ remark about Art Janov either, “Just an old man” and it did touch a nerve in me that you have stated that you do not like the word “Neurosis”. I suspect, though I could be wrong, that you actually believe you are not neurotic, and perhaps hope you never were.
Suggestion (for what it s worth), tell us a little more about yourself; what goes on with you, rather that your very adept use of the English language, especially it’s idioms.
Hopefully you are now more aware of what is going on with me about you.
i’m quite impressed with a fair bit of what you say, and with your lack of need to fire back. You considered opinions seem multifaceted, not aimless ramblings. Someone at PI told me once that worse than being misunderstood, is being ununderstood. So I find you refreshing.
I liked your post Leslie. Even now (as opposed to your beginning of therapy), because we invest so much of ourselves going through pains and hurting again just to get rid of their effects (neurosis) and have a life, we don’t want to be cheated again in the chance we could lose what we worked for.
I realize too, that life’s circumstances can change quickly and glad that I can engage in life’s moments in the here and now and enjoy what I have. I remember worrying about dying at 60 when I was 40; but now if I worry (and it seems I must) it is about more immediate things like health and safety for me and the ones I care about.
I think one of the best things about connecting to old feelings is that I have my memories back of the good times too that were buried in with the pain.
S
> Tom,
> your comment touched me deeply, thanks for your elaborate reply.
> you mentioning how you became a more feeling and conscious person strongly resonated with me, even when happiness is not always there, for me either, it is still very rewarding to be ‘deeper’, to be more able to really feel both the ups and downs, ad to be more conscious of who I am.
>
> you sound so together, so real in what you wrote, and I am very proud of you, you are truely remarkable.
> with affection and respect, M
Tom,
That was a very open and honest response to Margaret’s question. It is difficult for anyone to answer a question like that: it involves taking a hard look at yourself, your life and your therapy. I thought it was very brave.
Donal.
David,
I realized I have been going around in circles with you. The bottom line is that I had a reaction when you asked me how many years have you been primalling. It got my defenses up: I felt criticized or that judgement was imminent. I felt that you were one of these people who could drop into an old feeling at the drop of a hat, so I think it made me feel inferior.
All of the back and forth regarding primals was for the most part, from my end, the diffusing of these reactions to your question.
I only realized on Subday when you referred to someone saying that your use of “primalling” was dated (me obviously)
Kinda dissappointing I did not realize/admin this earlier: oh well, behold the power of defenses.
Donal
it’s all good, Donal. Not easy when we cannot see to whom we speak; no knowing where they’re at… it’s weird, like I’m 69, and yet feel emotionally, intellectually, much younger. And I have this perception of everyone on here just being, ” kids,” .Am I weird here all on my own ?? And my emotional self assumes everyone is superior, intellectually and in terms of primal success. A , ” man without a country,” I have pretty much accepted that I will never belong anywhere, with/to anyone. I could fit in, create a false face, but being me part of which is being honest is too important to me.
going to bed. gettin up early. gonna drink my coffee. gonna do some boring work and get my $500 to pay some other guys so they can drink their coffee. hate to say it, but this might be luxury to a lot of people. hear the one cat howl because it wants something. hear nothing vocal out of the cat that is dying. or at least the vet says it is dying, but you just cling to hope for miracles. sometimes you can find old music and not feel old. hang down your head tom dooley, poor boy you gonna die. gonna bed. gettin up early and gonna drink my coffee and eat garbage. thanks for listenin
You know I’m rarely on here unless I’m really having problems.
I feel as though my life is not of quality living. It seems like I experience more bad days than good and living becomes overwhelming and just no joy.
I know this is depression talking, but I hate my depression controlling my life. I have really tried doing every imaginable that would be healthy in order to feel better and I feel like crap and hard to get out of bed and go.
I do not think my antidepressant is working anymore! I told the pool guy this past week if I had a gun I would put it to my head and kill myself! In the frame of mind at the time– I meant it!
I’m feeling very different than anyone else and I feel as though I am going to go down in life as crazy!!
I just feel like I need to say something to somebody!
Crystal
keep talking, Crystal. I can empathize. Have been suicidal; the plan changed by a fluke visitor, 1985. Then I got pissed that I’d let anyone push me to that. And moved mountains to go to therapy. now, Since Primal, I don’t think I could kill myself but have lots of days that I don’t want to do this anymore. I respect your rights and choices. Now I’ll shut up an listen. There may be gaps, me responding; oh that’s kind of presumptuous of me, if that’s any help to you.
david
Thank you Phil for comment. i am asking for help, but I dont know how or how anyone can help! I’m just tired of living this way. I feel trapped in myself. I don’t know if I can make it at this point.
I asked my daughter to go with me today for my spot and her reply was- I don’t know what you are talking about. She’s not been around me lately.
Not sure if anyone noticed but I wasn’t myself at the retreat. I would have my meals and go back to the dorm. I just can’t take these feelings anymore and there’s nothing to live for anyway! My daughter n law is not even letting me keep Cruz. I guess they all think there is something wrong with me.
Yes, please continue to write anything you want, Crystal. You’ve added a lot of good things to the blog years ago and I see no reason why that would change now.
Just….work it all out here every which way you need to. The blog is yours.
Thanks everyone for your support! I guess things had to come to this in order for me to really see myself. I’ve had a lot on my plate whi his nothing unusual. I’ve seemed to like it all these years.
It all came to a head with my swimming pool remodel. The guy has been starting and finishing pools except mine since April. If you’ve seen some of my FB pics you will know plus I don’t seem to be getting as quality work. I have a really hard time telling people whatI want. So all day Thursday I told him what a sorry so and so he was and I was blaming my depression on the pool — but It was there before the pool! Then the well on my farm goes out. I am to leave on 17th for Africa. So everyday I get up– No energy and just want to run away from it all.
Then the man I date texts and says– I’m affecting his sleep and work and I need HELP!!
Let me back up to the swimming pool contractor– So I’m texting and giving him he’ll all day Thursday. I finally said to him- you will not admit you’re wrong and I can’t take it anymore. My backyard is my oasis and I don’t have one anymore. Jus thinks concrete and debris!!! So I said if I had a gun I would point it to my head and kill myself!!
He doesn’t know my boyfriends phone number but knows he is President of Wehco– He calls him at his work and tells his secretary it’s urgent to talk to him. Jeff said Jamey, pool guy, thought I was going to kill him and me or vise versa!!! So a meeting was set Friday night and my daughter doesn’t come– only Jeff. My thinking and reasoning is Truely impaired!!! I just went along with same old bullshit!!! So I started my texting again! If I am mad– I get really compulsive!!
So like a functioning alcoholic– I look and act like a functioning person and I’m a good actress– but I’m NOT! I’ve been more suicidal than ever before!!
I don’t like myself. I can’t keep anything in order. I don’t socialize much anymore. I’m bogged down with trying to get properties and farms in order and house while taking care of everyone else!!
So I called a psychologist tonight and told her I’m not doing well need appt. She first made for Thurs– then she said to come to her home tomorrow!!!!
I am glad I do not have a gun and there is no water In swim pool!!
The doctor raised my antidepressant dosage. It’s a new generic name so not sure that’s it. It’s everything!!! Everything from past and in present.
Crystal
I did not proof what I wrote. It’s all I can do get thoughts out. I’m trying to eat healthy and except use. One thing is I’m not sleeping well.
The movie– “The Gift” disturbed me in a lot of ways. If you want to watch a psychological thriller with a twist and can relate to real people- Go see!! But it is mind boggling a little.
I just feel like I’m doing worse than ever before!! I feel really hopeless! I really do! I’m turning 59 and I feel like I’m going down as crazy!! I’ve always wanted to be someone of importance and it seems impossible.
Dr Ryburn told me to bring the newspaper guy. I am Truely not putting on any heirs with him. I told him and I told her that this is not about a relationship. It is about me getting well!! For me to even say that- says a lot! I got really upset when he said– You need help with your depression Crystal!!! I at first got angry and defensive– but then decided I need HELP from everyone!! It’s not about putting on aires and trying to be something I’m not! I have to get over and out of this or I’m not going to be around anymore!!
I should have contacted Gretchen but my email was not sending so I think she received it today!!
I really need go bed. It’s 1am in Arkansas. I know my sleep is important if I can rest!
Thank you guys for listening! Crystal
Crystal , are you aware that anti depressants may increase suicide ideation ?? Hoave you had a complete physical with an MD practicing functional science based medicine ??
david
Crystal,
I am glad you can tell all of the rest of us here on the blog what is going on with you, and that you are getting support. People are so supportive on here. Glad you are getting help from people where you live too, I hope things get better for you, and you keep writing on here.
Donal
David- I have to wait until after Aug 28th to get a physical because of insurance. However, the doctor said there is some blood work he can do on Monday before I leave for Africa.
Actually I’ve never given it a thought about the medication causing suicidal. It is definitely a chemical depletion due to stress, etc etc. I just know what I have been taking is not helping me and surely there is something I can take to have a better quality of life.
I know there are so many things I have to work through. I spend too much time alone and overthink things.
Thanks David
I’ve learned that even when I think I can’t offer much, I can say I care. Any of us who have suffered must know that feeling. If my caring helped, I’m privileged, Crystal Keep talkin’ kiddo..
Hi Donal- Thank you for your response. I have a better outlook after Dr Ryburn met with me this afternoon. She kindly called and asked me to come to her home. It meant a lot that she would care that much! She has such a busy schedule because she teaches college classes and she had out of state company and just returned from abroad. So for her to call and say– Come on to my house meant just so much to me! It made me feel like she cared!
It also makes me feel good that in a moment of desperation- I can jump on here and you guys respond! Thank you – Crystal
> David,
> what you said about your little daughter, and what was done to her precious little body after she died, is stuck on my mind, even if back then I did not react, just want to let you know you were being heard.
> must have hurt so very much, and still now as well..
> seems like the worst what can happen..
> M
I think, Margaret, that after 34 years it was the first time I cried for her, I mean for what she lost. That poor baby. On the day of the surgery it was decided that I even though having assumed a forced calm would not be permitted to accompany her to the OR and be with her until she was unconscious. She was begging me to come with her. The porter who took her on the gurney told her, ” Your daddy needs to go for a smoke and a coffee.” So stupid, I didn’t use either. She meant no harm, but Rachael would know wasn’t true and I worried about that as an extra stressor. I was pissed at her ineptness. I’m the only one in my family who knows what indignity her body suffered.
Hey, Crystal; don’t need to be thinking clearly, to post, just awake. hee hee. I’d be mute if that was a requirement. And believe me that would be welcomed by some friends… hah
did you have a meds review ?? I hope your doc makes you a valuable part of the team. You know how you feel.
dave
Ok. 39 years of marriage as of today. I was lucky to find some gladiolas at Ralphs for two dollars. We went to the beautiful Franklin canyon but I was exhausted from cleaning up one tiny area of the house where one of the dog sleeps, so I was lifeless there, paid no attention to Z. We sat or tried to sit at a table that was not laid flat, it was at a down hill angle, so I really could not face her. The park was too lonely and quiet for me, since it was a weekday, few people were there. Coyote chasing quail in the every never ending quest to stay alive. Z and I rarely touch each other. Which one of us will die first and destroy the other’s life? I am drained and have zero to give. For a long time now. Life is a bitch and gets bitchier. Nothing has changed. My rent check bounced. I am so unhappy. I am so depressed. I count my successes at work. Like figuring out bureaucratic paperwork to that the government can move 200 old computers from one warehouse to another. Instead of just giving those computers to schools, they will rot forever in some stinking warehouse or be thrown into some dump. Like being a slob in my boss’s showcase of a computer technician work area/call center. Stacking stinking old label printers with all kinds of bugs on them around my desk to create a fortress to get some small measure of privacy. One dog dead this year, many dead dogs, cats, birds, turtles and whatnot over the past 55 years, another dog with a lump in his throat, a cat with either nose cancer or fungus, if she is lucky it is fungus. Does this tell us that we will probably get cancer ourselves from living 5 blocks from the freeway? No matter; no money to move, we can barely afford what we got. Oh yeah, rent check bounced. I have very little relationship with my kids because I couldn’t change myself enough from my terror of an early childhood. Never should have had kids but did. One kid seems ok, but trying to get his phd, he has no girlfriend of any of that stuff. Other kid, his wife doesn’t want his brother to come around at all. I am growing tomatoes, corn, squash, and weeds. Seeds I got from a survival company. If there is a cataclysmic catastophre, I might be lucky to get 2 ears of corn. Of course, tomatoes always grow, but not getting many. It is certainly hot enough. I am depressed and hopeless as always. I don’t want to listen to music and cry, not about my horrible life, nor about my recently-deceased dog. All the latinos on the block have giant families and get-togethers and we are just 3. I had such family get togethers when I was a kid, now the family is spread to the wind and I never hear from them. It is impossible to see my bother in Costa Mesa in his retirement home, where he gets to watch 3 old folks die each week. Anyway, done watering, now go get dinner for Z. Then give medicine to sick pets. Go get my coffee in the morning and go to work. Z came in my room to say she says she feels crappy, like she has a bug. She says this every other week. She has bottles of pills stacked all over her office. We couldn’t afford herbs or whatever supplements she is taking this week, so she is sick. Blah blah blah Couldn’t ask for another. You know that song. Send chills up my spine or something. Groove is in the heart.
Otto: I really like your writings here. I’m not into pets as you are (OK maybe a cat or something cute, small, furry and QUIET would work), but I empathize with your lamenting living close to the freeway. Makes all the sense in the world to me; traffic buzzing by your home at all hours will always add a low level of stress to your existence. Most people just train themselves to ignore it even though it’s there. Nice idea on your growing a garden, too. It can be hard work that demands a lot of attention, but I can see the sense of empowerment and natural comforts against an urban life that can mentally draw and quarter people from all corners.
(Thinking about Otto’s post just made me want to type this down before I go.)
Man, I really miss my maternal grandpa’s big, old ranch style home. Upscale neighborhood, last house at end of street, huge garden in back….and that lovely cedarwood smell by his carpentry area with two luxury cars in the garage. Grampa was simply the type to tear out the back seat of the old luxury car and make room for more tools. It became a carpenter’s truck disguised as a car; the newer car being left untouched for going out socially.
Very little traffic, yet only 20 minutes to the city and all its amenities. Perfect suburban living having all the trappings of nature without too much deep woods isolation.
The only thing to complain about is the maintenance work and costs to keep everything running smoothly, quietly, and serenely. It can be a definite chore without hired help (gramps was wise enough to hire one person in this capacity).
I think I would be very content just returning to this sort of lifestyle till the day I die.
I lived under the 405, on Sawtelle. After a while the freeway started to sound like a creek flowing. When I returned to quiet rural Nova Scotia, I couldn’t sleep at night; something wasn’t right. Interesting how maladaptation gets to feeling like normal so we can function, exist.
This therapy is cruel. The therapists are cruel. They get to know you and your carefully crafted rock and lattice edifice of defenses that help create the impression of a normal life, and then they point out it’s flaws and the thing comes tumbling down and your left with nothing, with a sickening, empty void. So cruel of them. They leave you there, naked, empty, and hurting, to the depths of your soul. Facing unbearable truth. Facing you are alone with it. Facing there is no escape from it.
Otto: Since you are a bit into gardening, maybe try placing some fragrant spearmint plants in your bedroom would be a bit of a refresher? Waking up minty fresh every day could add a spark of aliveness within the everyday urban dread.
Guru,I think Otto needs more than spearmint plants to freshenthings up.Phil
WordPress.com
THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented: “Otto: Since you are a bit into gardening, maybe try placing some fragrant spearmint plants in your bedroom would be a bit of a refresher? Waking up minty fresh every day could add a spark of aliveness within the everyday urban dread.”
Phil: That might be true, and I need about a $75 million freshening up in my own life, too! I mention this to Otto because of his current interests, my own enjoyment of having spearmint near the trash cans in my own backyard, and the ease for Otto to try something small that could produce outsized dividends in relation to the effort expended (taking a nod towards Otto’s currently low energy levels).
thoughtful and attainable. amazing, too, for me at least, how diversions often lead to the feeling spilling out, instead of remaining blocked in symbolism. Whenever the same emotional track keeps persisting despite,” feeling,” it I know I’m on the wrong track.
As an aside, I received this in the mail today: “According to a survey of more than 1,000 people, married people don’t have
much to say to each other. The survey found that on average, married
couples share only four minutes of meaningful conversation per day.”
Otto
Eloquent writing, but , boy, what a lot of stuff to deal with constantly: bombarded from both the past and present.
To echo Larry’s questions: how do you get through each day?? If I remember correctly from you previous posts, the coffee seems to help you get stuff done….i could be remembering wrong. I know coffee gives me a certain boost to get ride above hopelessness, anxiety, loneliness, emptiness, etc, so I can get stuff done, earn a paycheck, maintain structure in my life and keep some amount of sanity: I have gone through periods of drinking too much caffeine which leads to less sleep, thus exacerbating the issue of getting through the following day with all the tasks and feelings. Sometimes, an optimum amount of sleep deprivation and caffeine, balanced against each other, gives me just the right level of feeling-awareness to get through the day and feel okish. Not too much of feeling bad, and just enough of feeling good: right in that sweet spot where the defenses are balanced just right. Not to be confused with genuinely feeling OK, of course: its not but it often works.
Donal.
USG,
That sounds like hogwash to be honest: I am sure most couples have more than four minutes of interaction. Even if it’s negative. Maybe all of these couples were workaholics with exceptionally long commutes? Biased sample?
Donal
Donal: If you look carefully at what was written in italics it said four minutes of meaningful conversation per day, not four minutes of total conversation per day. That’s an enormous problem in itself trying to define what parts of conversations can be considered “meaningful” or not, especially as you start to cover a wide sampling of different demographic groups. I’m afraid I do not have more information available to flesh out all the factors that comprised the study I referenced.
USG,
I did see that.before I responded…four minutes still seems too low. And,yes, “meaningful” is subjective, though I was assuming it was conversation other than the functional things that couples need to talk about (is there enough money in the checking account to clear this month’s bills, who organizes dinner, who drops the kids at soccer, practice, who picks them up, etc,
Donal
There was a companion study along with the original one stating: Another study done in Britain discovered the amount of time married couples speak with one another decreases as the years pass. Couples married for 20 years were found to spend about 21 minutes conversing during a 60 minute dinner, whereas newlyweds within the first year of their marriage converse for about 40 minutes of those 60 minutes. The only exception belongs to married couples with young children, who speak for about 10 minutes during a 60 minute dinner.
Donal: Do you think that you might be more inclined to say the original study of the “4 meaningful minutes” is baloney because you possibly carry a bias related to your being younger and married for fewer years (and, thus more likely to talk longer than someone older and married for a longer period as implied from the second study)?
This reminds me of a story well something that happened on the recent Kruse Cruise. My ‘roomate’ or bunkmate whatever word you want to use was this Canadian woman Michelle. Anyway I would say we got on pretty good and hung out together a fair bit. Part of hanging out was having dinner at the same table every evening with the same people most of whom were strangers to each other.
The last evening Michelle was not there so I said to the table ‘my wife (or maybe I said my woman) is not going to be here today’. There was a pause and another woman there who did know us from the group said “She’s not his wife”. The woman who I was addressing the ‘stranger’ said “will I figured that” So I asked her how she figured that out.
She said ‘well you both spent the whole time talking to each other” So I said ‘oh does that go after you are married for a while?” She said ‘yeah pretty much’ She was there with her husband by the way so there was no bad feeling about it I didn’t think. After a while she said ‘and one other sign I had was “she laughed at all of your jokes” So I said ‘does that go too” to which she said again ‘pretty much’
Anyway Guru maybe you can add this to your ‘study’ and note it down as being purely ‘anecdotal’ Though to me ‘anecdotal’ usually seems to mean a lot more than all these reams of statistics. I mean most all of these ‘studies’ seem like such a waste of time……………
No prizes David……………unless you count being a member of my group that is scheduled to open soon and be operational in a galaxy far far away.For you a free membership everyone else will have to pay through the nose. That way I can keep the demand down. And the high price will convince people it is worth going all the way there……………..only you will know better so that’s your prize LOL
he system installed my aug 19 david says: in the wrong place; it was in response to Jacks response to USG in response to USG’s response to Donal’s reply to USG, It makes no sense here. Question why is the comment only reserved for some, Jack ?
but it did not appear ?? true to your prediction the function of the blog has quickly gone wonky again. If my computer and my connection was any faster I’d have to be registered somewhere. Waiting on the blog page to behave is annoying…
>
> yesterday we had a strong rain- and thunderstorm in the evening.
> the kittens had the time of their life, racing back and forth onto the terrace through the clattering cat door, twenty times back and forth, wet feet, wet tail,all excited.
> I kept checking on them, as the water in the gutter by the terrace was a combination of a waterfalll and a wild mountain river.
> one of the kittens jumped up to a plastic chair and raced around after its tail, all wired up with the rain, thunder, lightning, excitement..
> afterwards they ate a whole second evening meal to make up for all that energy, and dried on the bed..
>
> then I dreamed, waking up with a devastating overwhelming feeling.
> I was on the edge of a cold sea on my own, a group of strangers sitting at a distance further up on the beach, and the people I knew and came with sitting even further away.
>
> I started feeling distressed, as I coud not make my way back alone, and nobody seemed to take notice, so I think I called out to the strangers, or they noticed my situation, and they called out to ‘my’ group of people.
> I heard the ‘supervising’ lady tell the others they had been supposed to keep an eye on me or stay with me, so I knew someone would eventually come down to help me in a little while.
>
> but before that a safety guard, a woman, came racing out of the water to me, black swimming suit, cold and wet, and while she bent over to me to check how I was, I crumbled down on the cold wet sand, letting her know I was ok, not drowning or anything, but .. and then the feeling overwhelmed me big time, helples and immensely sad about it, emotion still there while writing..
>
> so sad, so alone, so helpless.
> feeling so strong I could only bear it a few seconds in its totality..
>
> M
More and more I’m finding there is nowhere to run from this alone thing. I can only accept it, cry it out, and do something about it. Not easy to do.
My boss retired last month. This past Friday was my summer students’ last day. I took them to a Thai restaurant for lunch. They gave me a parting gift, darn it. That’s a first. I wanted to resist accepting it, to protest, but realized it was far more satisfying for them if I graciously accepted it. So I did, but it wasn’t easy. My summer students shouldn’t be getting me gifts. I must not be working them hard enough. When they started work with us in the Spring they were anticipating a long boring summer, but they found it was fun, a good learning experience, and went by too fast. It sure did go by fast.
So now no boss to supervise me, and no students for me to supervise. My identity, my sense of purpose and meaning at work, is dissolving. At least the post-doc needs my help for the winter, and my boss took a 12 hour a week contract starting in September and will need my help, so I still have a reason to get up in the morning.
Back to the alone thing. This past Friday I enjoyed a nice evening with 5 other people from a singles social group, taking in cultural festivities happening in the City. I feel myself coming out of a shell, relaxing and having fun with people, for sheer survival. It’s that or be alone.
I’ve been alone all day today, crying quite a bit. Seems like the crying needs to be done, and the reality of aloneness accepted as well as the realization that only I can do something about it. I have more social activities lined up for the next few weekends. I was once way too shy and insecure to be as social.
Sounds like you are doing good things for yourself – and others too Larry!
It does take organizing to get out there, but it sounds like you enjoy the rewards.
Hope you get to enjoy the summer stuff for a long time yet!
ox L.
2 more years max, Leslie. I applied to do a 4 day work week, and will be paid accordingly. It is a transition to retirement option. The transition can only last for 2 years max, and then I must retire. So essentially I’ve formally let them know I will retire between now and 2 years from now (actually beginning at the end of this September).
we instituted a neat plan at our office, Larry; 3 year cycle, take 2/3rds salary while working for 2 years, take 3rd year off with 2/3rd’s pay. The income tax reduction was noticeable; CPP still maxed out; and tenure protected, so no effect on length of service determined pay increases.
Hi Larry
Read your lines referencing feelings of ‘aloneness’ with great interest.
Only now am I starting to wake up to my intense and lifelong feelings of loneliness. Never thought much about it. Never occurred to me that I could be inflicted by this feeling. I always put it down to not being able to connect. And that’s where I stopped. Mixing with people made me aware of my own inability to ‘feel connected’.
I do not cry about feeling lonely. I go into an acute state of “splitting away” from myself. It’s as if it was an other person feeling lonely. Not me. How could that be, after all, I am surrounded by people.
Oh yes. I forgot. It occurred long before I could even talk. Like looking at my mum, presumably out of a cot, or pram, swaddled in comforting cloth, sheets, whatever, Needing, expecting something, that I had no way of articulating like an adult. Like i am looking at you……shouldn’t something be happening now????????????
Like my first time in a small group the therapist asked me ‘what I want”. I didn’t know what to say.
Inside me I went ballistic. I delivered myself to your door, now it is up to you to look after me, take care of me. No?????????
Crying??????? What’s that? And it is supposed to help me????????????? How????
Oh Larry. You always affect me with your writing.
Tom
The more you write about it here, Tom, the more your life makes sense to me and I understand you. Your splitting from the feeling as a baby makes sense to me, when you tried to make contact, before you could speak, and no one responded.
I think some of that split from the feeling happened to me when I was 4, when I moved back home to live with my parents, when they weren’t responding to my need, and i didn’t even dare express my need because I knew that they were incapable of being the parents I needed, but I couldn’t let myself be aware that I knew or that I was all alone and would have to grow up without parents.
The split probably happened even earlier, when they gave me away in the first place. Suddenly I could not trust, bond, or connect. Suddenly I knew fear and aloneness instead of connection, security, and oneness.
There is an article in a recent issue of NewScientist about adoption in the wild animal world. For various reasons, some of them disturbingly dark, some animal parents in nature adopt offspring they didn’t give birth to. I look at the pictures accompanying the article and think of the bond shattered between the offspring and the original parent, the fear and uncertainty, the insecurity, at least in the beginning, of the relationship with the adoptive parent.
I think for you and me the bond with a parent shattered very early, or in your case it sounds like it didn’t get a chance to form at all.
> forgot to ask about something I heard on the news some days ago.
> big quantities of poisonous liquids would have been poured into the colorado river and some other streams, the poison turning the water yellow.
> that sounded really dreadful, what is the latest news about that?
> it is really awful to imagine plants and animals would have been killed and the rivers poisoned for a long time..
> M
Margaret – the last I heard on the news about it some Government official EPA I think said the river has just kind of cleaned itself. Reminds me of the time of the Gulf Oil Spill in 2010 everybody was tearing their hair out and then one day not long after a Government official said basically the oil had just gone! Just gone as in gone away he was not so clear where it had gone, evaporated, changed by sunlight, drunk by the fish, sunk to the bottom of the ocean whatever, who knows but basically don’t worry about it it’s just gone. The same seems to have happened to the poison in the river
> yesterday I discovered one of the kittens seemed to have wounded himself probably during the wild torment playing, at his nose and right eye.
> it was hard for me to assess how wserious it was, like was the eye itself wounded too?
>
> I tried in vain to reach several people to come by and have a look, none of them was there or had the time, which of course triggered the feeling of the dream again, being helpless and alone and scared, unhappy..
>
> finally after a few calls in vain, I mamaged to get hold of my best girlfriend on one of her cellphones, and to my great relief she said she just came back from the seaside and would of course come by to have a close look to the kitten’s eye.
> I felt so relieved I started to cry..
>
> there is indeed a cut from his nose onto the outer corner of his right eye, but the eye is seemingly ok.
> they still have some kitten’s ailments, but at least this is not too bad, and today he seems full of energy and playfulness, it is a pleasure watching them both racing around the house or catching toy mice or wriggling toes under the bed covers..
> M
Hi Margaret. Glad your kitten is OK. Know what you mean about helplessness when kitty needs attention. There are 2 wild kittens coming in and out of the yard, whose mom, of course is wild too. The white one (part Siamese), had what appeared to be a sticker in her little eye. Her eye was closed and she kept rubbing it. Being wild and unapproachable I could not help her. I borrowed a trap in the hopes I could catch her. Fortunately the next day the eye was better and what ever was in was out. But 2 months ago my little dog got a foxtail sticker in his eye and I could not get it out. He yelped every time I tried to touch around his eye. So he had to endure the night till morning to be seen by the vet.
The vet put numbing drops in the eye and proceeded to pull an inch sticker from behind what’s called the third eyelid. It had also scratched the cornea. I got medicine for the damage to the eye and he is okay. The vet told me about a cat he had treated whose owner had tried to dislodge a sticker that wouldn’t come out and it developed a fatal infection.
Needless to say, I’m glad I can count on help of the vet when my babies need help.
Take care and enjoy your little rascals. S
Margaret – I think you did good I mean by calling your girl friend but not a vet! You may consider me ‘crazy’ but you will see the less vets you get involved the more healthy your cats will be. Especially and on no account no shots. That is the beginning of the end even if the end might take a while……………
I imagine people here may not find this so interesting. And I do not really either in terms of speculations about past lives and all the rest of it. It’s about a boy who has this strong feeling he had a ‘past life’ and his Mom goes about trying to find out if it had any reality. As I say I don’t find that interesting really but I found the piece moving in that the boy’s Mother took his feelings so seriously and really listened to him. You might say overly listened to him but that would be just me saying that. It really touches me that even though he had a ‘crazy idea’ his Mom still listened and indulged him. Also I found it moving and interesting that when he finally ‘found’ his past life he felt sad and became very ‘quiet’. And the whole experience seems to have helped the boy in that now he seems to be able to ‘move on’ a bit from it. It seems like a form of therapy and the boy seems to have gone from being a bit ‘hyper active’ to being more calm. Better ‘therapy’ I would say than drugs for ADD or whatever it might be called. Guru you might find this interesting in that you have talked about death and what it means to die and is that all there is etc.
Patrick: I was curious as to why you posted the video twice? If we watch the bottom video could we interpret it as a sign that the boy “has lived before” in the first video on top?
In other words, did you purposely post the video twice as an actual physical & symbolic representation of your message? Just curious.
Anyway, I am strictly agnostic. Too big of a can of worms with this topic and I am not going to even attempt to try to change anyone’s mind over it. Just not worth it, really.
Guru – No I am not that ‘clever’ it was purely a mistake don’t know how it could have happened. So I am sorry about that but no deep ‘meanings’ at all
I wasn’t seeking your ‘opinions’ about any of this I just thought since it’s something that does seem to concern you you might find some echoes in this. Just a thought I had
Patrick: Well, thank you for posting this with me in mind. I just feel very reluctant to comment further on this. As I’m sure you can surmise, Janov would likely interpret this “past life” as the workings of a very young, growing, and incredibly complex brain with a great imagination that is seeking love and approval from both parents and the larger world around him. In possibly doing so, though, it could be said that a person re-experiencing and verbalizing childhood trauma in this life could also be the product of a hyper-active imagination, as well.
Nah, nah…these are things I wouldn’t want to touch with a 10-foot pole these days. Too many emotional standard-bearers from all sides of these arguments.
impressed by the eloquent exchange between you and Patrick on this afterlife issue. Nice this can be a place of social interchange. To me, big group was about that. Someone likely told me that, trying on our evolving selves with our new skins. While we all need to be accountable, must be nice not to get smacked in the face with an iron frying pan for being or sharing a thought or opinion. looking out my window I think it’s going to rain…
Hey USG, I am non theist, escaped christianity long ago, don’t ascribe it a capital c because it has been such a destructive force. Stepping away from religiosity totally, do you think a spirit world is possible. I dismissed it completely until a year ago at a social gathering I saw a young man with his step dad. Then he was gone. I did not know them personally. When I recalled this later to friends they told me the boy had killed himself 10 months before; they had attended his funeral. I was unaware of his death. I am still non theist, but not quite as close minded on the possibility of a, ” spiritverse, ” so to speak. There Must be a rational explanation for my believed experience. Some electrical communication amongst the living. Radio some believe only amplifies what is distributed on the air waves.
Well…I think you bring up a good point about the not being closed-minded on the possibility of a “spiritverse” as you put it. Trust me when I say there is a lot I could talk about here, yet I don’t feel energetic enough to tackle this topic for long periods of time right now.
Your observations about escaping a religion are of some noteworthy interest to me as well, for I suspect fervent religious believers can become “human furniture fixtures” blending into a temple environs and and ancient scriptures much like a vassal confined to the land of his feudal lord. As you may surmise, just because religions may be absurd in their foundations to a liberated outsider doesn’t necessarily imply the entire universe and its hundreds of billions of galaxies was simply an accident. Even in that case we may simply be in the middle of a stupendously gigantic accident that could have only been created by monumentally incredible forces that we puny humans have not begun to understand (and we may never be able to understand).
Let’s just say I think militant atheists/materialists that believe death is the eternal maw of oblivion and not knowing anything at all forever have painted themselves into a very strict corner when I believe a persistent mindfulness towards other possibilities would be more appropriate.
I’m a very loosely-defined agnostic who is purposely stopping just short of militant animal atheism where we are nothing more than talking pigs, horses, insects, and bacteria with an unusually large agglomeration of brain cells (for the reason I explained in the preceding paragraph).
About the video like I said I found it moving because of the way the boy’s mother listened to him even if his notions were a bit ‘crazy’. I guess I want to add as a child I had lots of ideas I thought quite good at least not crazy and well was not ‘listened’ to much at all. I could imagine my Dad ‘indulging’ me with something like this but not my Mom.
My own ‘theory’ about this is the boy’s ‘memory’ is very likely a womb memory that is kind of dressed up in a story. Like in the womb I could say IS magical and wondrous and maybe ‘strange’ and I can imagine having notions like that. But what I liked here is his Mom did not just take that ‘understanding’ she LISTENED to him more importantly
I cried a little when he ‘found’ his place…………….there is a feeling of relief after all the searching and the fact that the boy who seems a bit hyper-active got so still and quiet. I feel a lot of my own ‘;hyper-activity’ comes from the inability to be still and quiet. Life was rarely like that for me it was full of stress driving me from post to pillar……………now I sort of feel I am getting near a place that is still and quiet and I sort of ‘look forward’ to it though I am sure it will also be painful.
Yeah, I recall 21 year old Jake, Shih tzu, dying after we came back from our evening run. He had, I had forgotten, a short low volume, squeal, when I was holding him. 15 months now and I sometime forget briefly that he died. What was the relationship between you two ??
kid back from europe, now he and z can go spend time together, leave me to listen to music and weep. i know you rider, gonna miss me when im gone. too much sadness, bucket of tears, all the trails and nerve tendrils of my sorrowful life, dog gone who use to sleep with me, murdered buddy in 1973, kid number 2 who i feel so bad for the life we gave him. bucket of tears, not sure if there will be any relief, the bucket brigade of this feeling reaches to the moon.
Here I go again I guess I could say or maybe say it before others will say it……………anyway I happened to be watching Hillary Clinton electioneering in Iowa yesterday and this woman comes up to her and talks about her almost 3 y.o. daughter. Her child is on 13 medications, has it seems many many epileptic seizures per day, has all kinds of heart problems, is on a feeding tube etc etc. The mother says she doesn’t think her daughter will live so long more but she is asking Clinton about loosening the medical marijuana rules she thinks it would help her child.
Clinton nods or whatever but I immediately think……………..vaccines!! Like WHAT is going on? Why these kinds of stories and more and more of them. Of course I don’t know there are probably other factors pesticides, poisons of one kind or another, cell phones wi-fi in the home etc etc. But there is something about this that feels it is something ‘deeper’ or something more invasive to the child. I mean poisons and cell phones and all the rest of it I am sure are not good but this just seems like something MORE………………something so deep and damaging. And isn’t injecting (even that act) a one day old child ‘deep and damaging’ not to mention what is IN the injection. People may think well we all have had vaccines how can you say they are so harmful. We had………………like I said I had ONE when I was 8 y.o. and that’s all……………….but there is the sheer AMOUNT of them now and the TIME at which they are given……………
This is not only an American problem it has spread world wide, my brother in Ireland has a neighbor who has a 6 month old boy, he asked him has the boy had any vaccines, already FOUR that is at 6 months of age. I can’t just let go of talking and thinking about this it seems like a really serious problem the suffering of those babies is beyond anything that should be allowed to happen..
Another aspect of this there is this well known Brazilian soccer player Neymar who plays for Barcelona. Anyway he can’t play now for a few weeks and the reason is he has the ‘mumps’…………though the article mentioned as an after-thought that he HAD already been vaccinated for ‘mumps’. So the message I take is aside from the very serious damage vaccines are causing they do NOT WORK!. This is coming out more and more also most of the so called ‘victims’ of the so called ‘outbreak’ in Disneyland this winter had ALREADY been vaccinated! So again why the need and push for it then it doesn’t even work. Phil I wonder if their ‘measles titres’ were up or down or in the range where they might need more shots…………………..
Quote:- “I can’t just let go of talking and thinking about this it seems like a really serious problem the suffering of those babies is beyond anything that should be allowed to happen.”
Another quote:- “from the very serious damage vaccines are causing they do NOT WORK!.” How do YOU know???
It’s very understandable that you are not able to “let go” of it … but I might suggest your major concern should be right there … INSTEAD of which it seems you feel the need to be a spokesman for the cessation of the use of any vaccines; ‘keeper of the crypt’ as t’were.. My feeling is you are far from, qualified over any of these matters, BUT you are at liberty to voice your feelings about it ALL.
If you were to keep it to your feeling and stop the “anal-izing” (your word) I suspect you would get more respect Neither you nor I are qualified enough to give ANSWERS to these question, It is in just this area that Thouless talks about “crooked thinking’.
Governments and it’s leader perform the same ‘anal-izing’. They seem to know better than us peons. The medical profession performs a similar role. We’ve gotten into the habit of trusting experts … rather than leaving us to our own instincts and feelings.
Hi Jack. Don’t you think that the suffering of babies and world-wide injustices resonates with our own suffering. I remember being upset over so many things; every time “60 minute” program would have their weekly expose of some cataclysmic forecast: from the chemicals used in farming polluting the creeks; fracking; the ruin of farmland from over- farming turning the Midwest into a desert. Boy I really worried about those things.
I think, because I didn’t have access to my own suffering I was caught up in other’s problems.
When I did gain access to my own hurts and agonies I could be more objective and realistic about bad things happening around me. I’m not going to stop the chemical co. from doing their deeds. It’s no fun feeling hopeless and helpless over something we can’t do anything about, and I think that’s the heart of the feeling. We were once helpless to what others did to us. So much for Sunday philosophy. S
Hi Sylvia,
It is always lovely to have your thoughtful, calm, positive presence here. Please tell us how you changed your life to access your feelings.
Also, do you live near the Canadian Prairies ? – as I have a special friend there :).
L.
the fact that our commercially produced food is unfit for safe , healthful consumption, that we are at an all time high for degenerative diseases, that traditional fishing waters are being approved as toxic dump sites for mining tailings, that rivers are so polluted fish and shell fish cannot be consumed before being chemically detoxified, seem fairly rational reason to conclude things may be a bit shaky in OZ, Dorothy.. I think there’s broad stroke difference between that and fearing a zombie attack. And it has happened because we happily turned over the reigns to the demagogues and settled down to bask in the glowing joy of our every evolving convenience gadgetry like smart phones and RF chip implants. That can stir up my pissed off genes.
Sylvia: I totally agree with all you say here. Once I feel I know my own past from feeling it, then it makes me less caught up in the “truths” of the matter. and hopefully more acceptable.
I am not always good at it, but I do know, that for me least-ways, that is where I have to go.
I cry very often for what I perceive are the injustices of life. All it does is put me into the feeling zone. That is what I came here to do. There’s no end game. Just the process of living … and for me it feels more full.
Well it’s all ‘old feelings’ then and forget about being ‘concerned’ about real life issues like vaccines. Got it! Of course if you are a good PR man you can simultaneously ‘cry’ and ‘cry often’ about it but if some one else is ‘concerned’ or even ‘mentions’ it it is probably a ‘mental act out’ Got is again!
So if we our Primal Pain Pool was totally drained we wouldn’t give a shit about the indignities, the genocides; or maybe intellectually just not feel anything for raped and murdered babies, ??? The I’d know I’m healthy, non neurotic, when I don’t give a fuck ??? Huh, I had a patient who used to get jealous whenever her husband was having sex with her mother or one of her sisters or brothers in the next room or on the floor in her presence. She came to therapy because she thought she had the problem, and hoped therapy would heal her… So, she was right that she needed to change her dysfunctional jealousy, her anger, upset, endless crying?? Well poo on me, I told her to run while she still had her sanity, then start therapy.
With that pacifism the chemical company can do what it wants. Our early pain and current injustices, ones that threaten the existence of our grandchildren are separate issues. Doing nothing, not screaming and marching to me is another reflection of being, a ” Prisoner of Pain.” My Indian ancestors bent over for rape and genocide. The good christians taught them that was the will of their god. I don’t plan to ever stop being pissed about that.
“There are now minions of Evidence Based PHD’s in medicine not merely MD’s who are daily publishing the documented ravishes of vaccinations; previously healthy babies dead in ICU from rapid onset illness causing massive brain damage, often only hours after measles vaccines injected. In the past month Science has established the brain has it’s own Lymphatic System and the Blood Brain Barrier is not the infallible buttress it was formerly believed to be. Pets given vaccines at the same time as being given anesthesia for neutering are brain damaged. That was established over 2 decades ago. Only now reaching that intelligent conclusion with humans ???
Studies in 2012 at UCLA SC linked morning sickness GSK drug, “ZOFRAN,” to birth defects, and families are taking … That Glaxo advertised the drug as a safe treatment for morning sickness and …tantamount, says prosecutors, to medical larceny…. NVP is called hyperemesis gravidarum and can cause malnutrition and endanger the … Glaxo-Smith-Kline now facing mega billion dollar suit before federal courts..”
Nice to know we are so well protected by a medical system we can trust and believe in.
I have a doc friend whose colleague has been documenting these tragic cases. She says they are legion and text book similar. And If anyone has taken a perfectly healthy toddler for needles then to wake to a screaming, febrile, head banging child, needing to be rushed to emerg and booked into ICU; the experience is indelible. As is watching your child having been, mind you not deliberately, euthanized.
Hi Jack and Leslie. Yes, Jack, I agree that is why we are here, to feel and live better. Leslie, thank you for the compliment. I am always thrown by nice words–so a big feeling for me. I think in the 2 yrs. that I’ve been reading the blog it has been partly what’s helped me to access my feelings. I remember your saying that we don’t have to cover up how or who we are anymore. If we don’t feel like we are good enough, or confident or popular then be ok with that instead of over-riding it, denying it. That’s how I felt too–I cannot deny any more that I’ve not got it together. There were times on the blog before I was brave enough to write where things really bothered me and I would have arguments in my head (especially over the infamous feud). Somehow I would work out some of my family dynamics through them and even lost sleep over some. I also listened to music which I had put aside for years because it brought up such loneliness in me. I began to find feelings in movies too.
But I have to say my defenses were already crumbling from taking care of my mom who suffered from dementia. I developed several physical problems from the stress and was pretty much a mess mentally too. So I was primed for a reboot.
I suffered with a lot of anxiety, so I think letting myself feel that was helpful. I also had a “people” fear, so in writing on the blog I risked being criticized and seen. I tried to be honest with myself. What were my motives for doing something–was I just trying to get attention. I still have anxiety but I’m more able to enjoy things. I think I don’t get bored feeling more open to things. I live in rural northern California. I am always glad to read your input here too, Leslie. S
It is interesting Sylvia, how just reading the blog changed your perspective on life and how to live it, and how you transitioned to being more open to your internal life, without formal therapy. Reading the Primal Scream sort of did something like that for me. By what you’ve shared about what you’ve learned in just a couple of years, seems like you have a lot of innate wisdom.
You write about your mom in the past tense. Did she pass away, if you don’t mind me asking?
Hi Larry. It’s been 3 1/2 years since my mom has passed. I had mixed feelings for her because though I loved her very much my adult years with her were not totally happy.
I wish she would have let me be more of a friend, but she was more of a take charge type and my personality kinda got submerged.
My “therapy” hasn’t been smooth. Getting overloaded and feeling things I wasn’t ready for was risky. I think the smart way is to have a therapist.
Thanks for explaining Sylvia! I find it amazing that you were/are able to go there yourself. It really does open up new territory and also no matter what, once we have it again – (better if we’ve never lost in the first place of course!) -with some attention its always there.
I like that. Things don’t have to be so complicated – when I know what I am feeling. Not that I always like what I am feeling – because I don’t, but the fear /confusion of it and the automatic cover-up are all things I am glad to be dropping.
Rural northern California is a beautiful place to live!
L.
nicely expressed; being vulnerable; a biggy for me, rejection, made the fool, on, and on. not easy but wearing the mask I think would be harder. mine was early issue, didn’t know I was wearing it.
I think you are our new Sunday font of wisdom based on the feedback from everyone. Philosophy Sundays with Sister Sylvia, as you suggested in an earlier post today. You’re on a roll now. Are you coming back next week?
PS. What’s this infamous feud you are referring to?
Sylvia: I’ve been here on the blog since its inception circa 2008-2009. It’s time for some newcomers and fresh voices. I’d still hang around here, but I’d like to step aside a bit more nowadays.
Wasting my time here but fuck it………….this ‘trick’ of being such a ‘feeler’ than one can ‘cry’ and ‘cry often’ maybe at time have ‘tears stream down the face’ about world issues……………….and yet to simultaneously be vigilant about dismissing ANY mention of them by someone else (me for example!) as just some crazed mental act out or something is an amazing trick………………and only a trick someone who was a devious lying PR man would even ATTEMPT……………….but there you have it he does………………another fine primal therapy success story
This NOOOOO video bender Patrick is on reminds me of a quote from Paul Vereshack I once really loved:
“If you are right and I am wrong, my sense of being wrong might start to spread and I will fall into an abyss of wrongness where I will disintegrate and become nothing and die. Anything external to us can trigger this kind of terror in us. Rather than suffer the abyss of wrongness, we will defend ourselves, we will not hear, we will distort, and we will maintain our truth at all costs. It is this terror which generates the opinions we hold and causes us to try to neutralize the opinions of others.”
Thank you for being here, blog friends, for being vulnerable, real human beings willing to explore and willing to try to understand. I was with some people this morning, and at the gym this afternoon, but when I’m alone at home, the aloneness is deep and pervasive and lately exhausts me. Connecting with you on the blog this evening has made me feel better and given me strength. I think because of the honest, open, human connection and sharing that can happen here, I don’t feel quite so life-sapping alone as I did earlier this evening.
> Sylvia,
> wish those kittens, cats, and of course you the best, must be hard indeed to see that problem without being able to take care of it..
> M and kittens
Seems I have been ‘censored’ oh well just as well I suppose Gretchen was probably (again?) saving me from myself or trying to………..still we have a bit of ‘censorship’ here a lot of my comments seems a bit nonsensical without it but probably most people (here at least though I don’t think in a lot of other (better?) places might not think so whatever………………
I write about the H Clinton vaccine interaction well in the spirit of that is what is on my mind good or bad not saying it is ‘good’ but it is what is on my mind. And I think a bit in the spirit of that video about the Scottish boy who had ideas some people might consider ‘crazy’ but it’s his internal truth and his Mother was sensitive and smart enough to know not to just shut him up, criticize him etc. tell him he is wrong he makes no sense blah blah blah……………..in that ‘spirit’ and I think well this IS a ‘primal’ blog that should be fine right? though deep down or actually on the surface I know PR man never sleeps and is always ‘lurking’ like a spider with his web he is waiting for an unwary fly to wander into his territory and then fly ‘your dead’ the spider will have him for lunch or breakfast or supper. PR man is like that I went away for 2 weeks and he gets into the SAME shit with Guru, provoking, distorting and distracting he needs that for some reason I see all that and ok I am glad it’s not me someone else for a change. But Guru does not really care he told me he does not take PR man seriously but I think still it’s hurts his feeling on some level or maybe it doesn’t maybe that’s just ‘overly touchy’ me.
Anyway disappointing enough he does respond and in all the usual ways quoting me back several times, a maniac who can’t stop using the Ctrl-C button and what an insult that is, criticizing, finding ‘crooked thinking’ the usual farrago of bullshit, very intolerant and hateful of course towards me. The whole post is full of ‘crooked thinking’ he apparently knows a lot about that subject he complains how we are supposed to trust authority, doctors etc who claim to know what is good for us. I even agree with him there but here I am actually NOT trusting doctors and authority but of course I am still doing something ‘wrong’ I am not ‘qualified’ the usual puts downs. I am also ‘not qualified’ to have an opinion about PT but the funny thing is I AM ‘qualified’ I was a great ‘believer’ in it I ‘studied’ it deeply before I came here and from MY EXPERIENCE it is/was not even close to the ‘claims’ that were made for it and still are. But I am supposed to shut up and I think the contrast with that Scottish mother could hardly be greater.
It does not overly ‘bother’ me I mean I should know by now it’s the usual crap the usual one up manship just something he can’t help doing. I have some ‘advice’ also to guide me, Fiona’s ‘don’t engage EVER’ Larry’s ‘practice self control, or Guru ‘don’t take him seriously’. I go to the beach feel fine all day even ‘meditate’ on this nonsense from PR man on the blog I am OK with it, won’t respond etc Dr Kruse has a Q&A at 4pm I have better things to do focus on that I have more wholesome and helpful interests and concerns that dueling with a PR man
I have trouble getting on the call on the computer, not the first time but manage to listen on the phone but it’s not as good, can’t put questions there are people there I want to ‘chat’ with etc can’t on the phone. But it’s OK get the info ……………but the info is not that ‘good’ He is going on about this 4G ‘roll out’ and makes it sound bad and actually scary. It will amount to having a WiFi signal on ALL THE TIME and WHEREVER you are! It will make the electro-magnetic smog picture worse maybe a lot worse. Now you can not have a cell phone (I don’t) and you can not have WiFi at home (I don’t) but this is a new and worse situation. Maybe we CANNOT escape it Dr Kruse makes it sound like maybe the beginning of the end for life and not just human life animal life, fish life even plant life. A bit ‘apocalyptic’ make that a lot apocalyptic so well something else to worry about a new worry, this seems never to end, dangers everywhere, life on the brink the brink of extinction. It IS happening but we are doing it to ourselves most of all so we have not only vaccines to watch out for the ‘powers that be’ it seems WILL get us we are all dead meat really things look bleak………………
Then I look at the blog again, now we have PR man ‘crying’ and ‘crying often’ (what a good boy what a ‘feeler’ what an excellent altar boy for primal) but ‘crying’ about the situation in the world. The VERY thing he is all over me about if I even MENTION it, so as usual rank hypocrisy, one law for primal upper class the champion ‘feelers’ another for not ‘qualified’ people like me. He is English of course snobbery is so second nature to them they WILL have an ‘upstairs/downstairs’ attitude even it ir kills them. They can’t help it it’s deep in their alien(ated) souls if they even have
souls I have seen no evidence of any. And OF COURSE the primal verities are invoked it’s just a feeling, he ‘brags’ some more he goes to the ‘feeling zone’ with it all he is of course then ‘approved’ for all that first by Sylvia but to be fair to her she does open by asking doenst’ the suffering of a dying 3 year old ‘resonate’ with us all. an excellent question and a great opening but it goes down hill from there as usual, she no longer ‘worries’ about the environment etc etc the more she feels the feeling the less she cares about the world or words to that effect. But it’s ok too and I even agree with that I find the same thing it’s a reality we DO I DO ‘project’ my own bad feeling on global warming the coming ‘extinction event’ etc. It’s ok if a bit ‘churchy’ the as I say usual primal ‘verities’ just a religion really. Repeat their mantras ignore the real world so life can b e on the brink of extinction and these dopes will just ‘console’ themselves like monks in the Middle Ages or something but PR man ‘cries’ about the real world too and it seems almost every day that’s what a champion ‘feeler’ he is He is top of the class there just a ‘feeler’ to end all ‘feelers’ the one and true altar boy of Arthur Janov who was never near an altar at least not a Catholic one or a Muslim one. Anyway they are all ‘neurotic’ but he has his OWN religion now and the ‘followers’ to prove it
Anyway the ‘churchiness’ is deep but apparently not deep enough now Gretchen has to ‘weigh in’ and add to the ‘churchiness’ she finds what Sylvia says so ‘wise’ Is it really? It’s not bad as I say I even ‘agree’ with it but ‘wise? Well not really but Gretchen is of course close to being ‘head of the Church’ so now it’s Sunday evening and to me the world is going from bad to worse but here is this freaking Church…………….the Church of primal verities……………repeat after me and even THAT would not be enough if I did it PR man would find that to be ‘wrong’ too and ‘crooked thinking’ to boot so I thought NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!…………………that’s where Luke Sky walker comes in and even Darth Vader mumbles something about FEELINGS (screamed in that Winston Churchill like squawk) and again I thought NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patrick: I don’t think you were censored by Gretchen with her removing your multiple “Luke Skywalker” clips. From what I understand, spamming a lot of embedded Youtube clips on a single page can overload the RAM on older PC’s and/or modern smartphones with smaller memory capabilities.
It just makes the page a lot harder to load. More of a procedural cleanup rather than eliminating your thoughts ala “Fahrenheit 451”.
I suspect Janov has been enormously more worrisome in this area than Gretchen.
This is a song for today and yesterday too……………..Desolation Row……………………..a lot in that………………..PR men, suicides, prophets and seers and all on Desolation Row…………….Bob Dylan was a far seeing dude………………..song for the 6th Extinction Event………………
>
> just saw a very good documentary about the Grunge, focusing on Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, but also full of interviews and music of R.E.M. and the Pixies and Pearl Jam etc., and how they grew into their styles.
> of course a lot too about how Cobain drifted into depression and drug addiction, ending with the heartbreaking unplugged version of Girl where did you sleep last night..
>
> it really resonated, the tragic loss of a talented young man , overwhelmed by his pain when actually making it, not knowing how to break the cycle, the downward spiral, even with a young kid.
> they did not say what happened to Courtney Love and the kid, wish they had,as I am not up to date with that musical era, am more of a seventies chick..
>
> reminded me though of losing my own partner to a sudden drug related death.
>
> I used up about seven or maybe even eight of my nine cat lifes to it as well, so I better watch out now..
> users seemed to be very close to their pain a lot of the time, I actually liked most of them despite their obvious problems and despite the fact you should not leave most of them alone with your valuables..
>
> so much wasted energy, and barely covered pain, makes me wonder if they would not make very good patients if kept long enough out of reach of dope during their therapy..
>
> well, yeah, I am a rescuer by nature I guess, but better to be too optimistic than the other way around..
> maybe one day I will try to finish a book I once started about my own life, there is so much to tell, too much reallly as after 150 pages I am still only early twenties, haha, maybe I should make it a trilogy..
>
> so much to do, too little time and not enough energy to do it all..
> off to clean the litter boxes now….
> M
There’s a really good article written by a Tears to Fears band member. They had applied to come to PI, but then success happened. He wrote how fandom, like the other gods, money, fame power,are self cannibalizing; can never get full ; never enough; romantic love of one devoted lover never enough. His pain of living must have been tremendous. I know when I planned my aborted suicide, it was clearly the best answer for me. Now, after pt I could only do that if incurably terminal and I would become nursing care.
You wrote about users, Margaret; my friend who introduced me to Primal in the 70’s, maintained that substance addicts had by far the best outcomes; because their drug of choice was their defense system. Even with psychotic patients diligent withdrawal of meds saw dramatic response. Being one who self numbed my defenses weren’t so easily dismantled. And when I lost
60 lbs of blubber and gained muscle in LA’s underground furniture moving business, that of course was rewarded.
“LA’s underground furniture moving business”………………I like that makes it sound almost ‘cool’ I still need to write that story. Funnily enough to-day I was thinking about it and felt like actually writing it. Don’t want to build it up too much it’s just another crazy story but it IS pretty crazy………………….(to be continued)
I am so lucky to have had yet another incredible experience this summer after the absolute gem of a Retreat. With air miles I was able to join my brother, his partner and my Mom to celebrate her last year’s 85th birthday. We flew to Haida Gwaii – “Canada’s Galapagos” ~1hr. 40min. flight north of Vancouver. Wow!
So pristine and glorious to truly be in the deep woods, on the long, wide vacant beaches all while soaking up the misty weather. Weather like the Maritimes David !
Also, thought so often of Larry and Sandy as your cities as well as ours have such horrendous histories and present disconnects with our First Nations population. How wonderful to be among the Haida and see and feel their pride and culture. That my brother partner’s family is Haida and have lived there meant that we were invited to some very special sights/ceremony.
Inspiring and relaxing – such a great combination for a holiday!
Leslie – I think we have so much to learn from all these indigenous cultures, they are so much wiser, kinder and smarter than any of the ‘developed’ cultures will ever be it seems. And that includes the ‘alienated’ people of the developed world (primal people for example) even they have nothing on those older cultures.
That’s one reason I found that interview with Ortiz the guy who Janov says ‘inspired’ the primal scream so interesting. Ortiz looked for wisdom in aboriginal culture and not the kind of ‘modern’ screaming as he seemed to feel about primal therapy. And I would agree with him pretty much he seemed a deeper and more rooted person than Janov all the screaming notwithstanding……………………….
Nice to hear you are having a wonderful and meaningful holiday, Leslie. From your description I can imagine some of what it might be like and wish I could experience it.
Sometimes it’s hard to believe our forebears had so little empathy as to be OK with enslavement of other human beings. But we don’t acknowledge the enslavement today of people working at low minimum wage, or of people trapped in under nourishing, deprived, broken social conditions such as many First Nations communities are. Sometimes I don’t think were a lot different than former slave owners who cared only about their own bottom line.
Helping prepare our spiritual retreat for a Mawiomi this week. My native ancestry does not show, except for my lifetime hated long ears..hah; but I’m accepted as, ” red inside.” There is something about walking on that ground. I never received a manual when I began the Red Road, but I knew I was home.
A recent blogger put forth a comment that spent more time talking about me than himself. I am not sure why I am designated the Primal Therapy flag bearer … particularly in view of the fact that I have not attended a session, group or retreat for more and 7 years now. The reason: I am now able, after 30 years of therapy, to get into feeling on my own or, if I find it a little difficult … to call on a buddy. Should it get really bad I would take a session or two or more.
I know I am not the pupular guy on the blog and that many see my inadequasis, idiocities and stupidities, but I am the expert on me and MY therapy. I only know of others through their comments here on this blog, and “yes”, in commenting, as I was recently reminded; I say more about myself than anything or anyone I may comment upon
What I would say to those that read this blog, but have their own trepidations about making a commnent:- “Don’t be afraid to make a fool of yourself. You couldn’t ever make a bigger fool of yourself than me … not that, that’s any real consolation, BUT by venturing here you will get to test the waters of your own therapy results”
No one will ever be a bigger smart ass than me, which is why I need to own a smart car. Leaving oneself to be vulnerable, to being rediculed can never be worse than what most of us got in childhood. Now that we are big girls and boys, we have a few more rescourses to calm ourselves, than we had way back then. So!!! come on in; dip your toes in; it’s very surprising what we learn about ourselves. Nothing compared with early childhoods; for most of us … no-where near THAT bad
I notice the ‘delicacy’ about a recent blogger etc………….which makes a nice change what does NOT change though is still the constant ‘judge-mentality’ as if in talking about oneself is ‘good’ taking about another is ‘bad’……………..that is the kind of silly time wasting you are well known for……………..but maybe more to the point if talking about oneself is so ‘good’ and talking about or especially criticizing another person is so ‘bad’……………..THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU DO IT THEN AND CONSTANTLY…………….all your ‘quoting back’ all your snipes and accusations of ‘crooked thinking’ etc isn’t that ONLY talking about the other person……………I don’t really think you are a ‘stupid’ man but you act very f..;… stupid. Maybe as Barry says ‘our pain MAKES us stupid” and as I commented to him ‘well then doing primal therapy (as the least the way you seem to do it) KEEPS us stupid. Are you trying to drag more people into your farrago of nonsense, maybe you need ‘new’ victims like the spider and the fly some of the flies start to know your tricks a bit………………why would anyone in their right mind be dragged into your web……………….you are maybe slightly ‘ashamed’ for a day or two (though I am under no illusion you have ‘learned’ anything, learning does not go much with a PR attitude it’s all ‘spin’ and ‘positioning’ as you seem to be doing now ‘re-inventing’ yourself as they sometimes call it) to do your quoting back so it seems you want some new ‘meat’…………….the spider is hungry for some new flies……………
Quote from your August 17th @ 4:53 am:- “I was a great ‘believer’ in it, I ‘studied’ it deeply before I came here “. BUT seemingly; just when Leslie Pam tried to take you to the ‘promised land’ you chirruped in with “What’s the point?” Denying yourself of the promise and totally negating all your studying.” Therein is the great pity … so now all you are left with is attempting to denigrate the “keeper of the crypt”.
Why does being quoted irk you so badly? I would have thought you might have seen it as a compliment. Ah well!!! there’s no accounting for what thrills another.
So are you talking about yourself now (‘good’) or me (‘bad;)……………to borrow your own silly rigid categories………………….I honestly gave my reaction at the time (is that ‘bad’) or would you have a ‘good’ or a ‘better’one. You are a world class idiot and anything I ‘share’ will just be dragged back and used against me. Still talking about another then (bad? no tell me or please don’t I have heard your nonsense so many times already. Please try to find some new flies I can’t imagine I taste good to you anymore……………..as far as ‘asking for what you want’ Tom V said he had a similar reaction go away and ‘pick’ on him or ‘quote’ him. I thought this whole thing of ‘ask for what you wan’t’ was a very ineffective therapeutic tool and my impression is I was far from the only one. Of course you being such a ‘winner’ never had any problems at all it all went perfect for you………………the very definition of a PR man. PR stands for ‘public relations’ in case you have forgotten. I notice again you try to ‘tag’ me with ‘failure’ just more PR from the self reported ‘success’ and ‘winner’ you are…………………..as I said you came to therapy ‘gay’ and ended up ‘gayer’ so please tell us PR man what exactly changed for you……………….
Not really wanting to just have another ’round’ with Jack but to try to broaden it out a bit (OMG I can already see that being ‘quoted back’) but to try to focus on this thing of the therapist saying ‘ask for what you want’ and I just gave what my reaction was at the time. And I found it interesting Tom V had or even still has a similar reaction. Well I guess it will have to be about Jack unfortunately at least to some degree…………..he immediately tries to ‘use’ that as evidence of ‘failure’ on my part. Like immediately blame the patient or you might accurately say blame the victim
Which bring to my mind (OMG I used the word ‘mind’ he will jump on that) anyway the ‘authoritarianism’ at the heart of PT certainly of ‘classic’ PT. At any point if things are not going well blame the patient. This was deep in Janov’s original ‘system’ remember not letting the guy go to the bathroom (“Don’t piss away your feelings”) this was part of EST and other authoritarian ‘systems’ at the time. But what I am thinking about now (OMG I used the word ‘thinking’ – more quotes) is certain people like Jack internalize that authoritarianism so completely that they can never see any imperfections ever in the ‘therapy’ all the ‘fault’ and blame is to go ONLY to the patient. In that way it is some kind of classic recreation of a hateful father figure, but where one has no power the only option is to ‘adore’ the bigger power.
Of course it leads to self hatred but also it does not wash with ‘rebellious Irish’ like me. We of course had our own authoritarianism in the Catholic Church but we also had our own native rebelliousness where we DON’T just bow down and see all the fault in us. I mean we do also of course but in the case of PT well to me at least I could not see how it ‘deserved’ that status. When I came here the place was clearly a shambles, Thorazine was being handed out like candy, suicides started to rock the place, the Medical Director ‘genius’ became a rabid Jesus Freak, I don’;t know where Jack was during all this but anyway no matter how flaky and silly most of the stuff they did any ‘complaining’ was and even still is by the likes of Jack evidence of I dunno ‘failure’ ‘not getting it’ or whatever. Blame the patient at all times!!
For a long time me still as a ‘true believer’ used to kind of think well the ‘theory’ is still very good it’s just the ‘practice’ that has gone off the rails.Now I am inclined to think (oh shit another quote) nothing happens in a vacuum and the ‘theory’ is pretty faulty also. Where does it go wrong? Above all i would say in putting ‘feelings’ in some kind of special realm ‘outside’ of reality you might say. Or ‘feelings’ as something in themselves as a friend of mine says ‘feelings as the ultimate commodity’ feelings split of from what they refer to. So then they try to ‘induce’ feelings, evoke or bring out feelings but feelings always refer to ‘something’ they are not things in themselves. If you put feelings in some special realm then it takes ‘specialists’ like Dr Janov and it
turns out ONLY Dr Janov to deal with them. He slaps his TM (trade mark) on them and how they are to be handled. He tried to patent’ the word “Pain” apparently pain with a capital “P”. And that is the direction things went in and unfortunately led the whole thing to be a ‘soft cult’ with less and less meaning and relevance to the real world
Gretchen has tried and succeeded to a degree to make things better and this blog is a good example. It is open it is free it is random and free from all the things feeling should be and are.That’s why I believe (another quote??) in talking about WHATEVER is on my mind. Not being is some sub world of ‘feelings’. So I might have to start talking about Donald Trump and speculate how he will be ‘brought down’. My prediction now is he will do it to himself but if not and if that does not pan out some ‘anti-Semitic’ thought or action will be found and THAT will bring him down. Just wait for it……………….he knows everybody maybe once when Yassar Arafat was in NY at the United Nations he held his pistol for a minute or something……………….
Quote:- “Where does it go wrong?” Wrong question … “Where did I go wrong”.
I’ll take a shot at this again with you, not because this spider likes eating you fly ‘Patrick’, but because at 63 you begin to taste not so good anymore. AND you anal-izing of me is way off … you never were attractive to me in that realm.
When I first read “The Primal Scream” I went to see the guy that lent me the book and asked if I could hang onto it for a day or two longer as I felt I needed to read it again … just to make sure that I got it right first time. Knowing me, I had a nasty habit of getting things wrong on first take … so I re-read it and ‘voila’ I did get it right first time.
Now I had another problem … how to get $8,000 together plus, leave my lovely farm house on top of a mountain and get over to the U.S.A. Then I heard that The Campbell’s (Wendy and Bernard) living in Cambridge were thinking of opening an English Institute. So! the trip to London was cheap enough and a train to Cambridge was within what little cash I had. So I wrote them, got an appointment and duly set off.
I turned up on time was impressed with Cambridge (my first visit ever) and was lead into their living room for an hours chat with Wendy. I knew one thing only when I set off and that was DOING Primal Therapy was something I had to allow MYSELF to do … AND that no-one; not the best therapist of all, Arthur himself, was going to do it either for me OR, to me. I may have mentioned this to Wendy during that interview. At the end she just said to me (along with telling me that as yet there was no English Institute created), and I quote:- “You seem to have a very intelligent attitude towards Primal therapy … al-be-it that your intelligence is your greatest defense” Those two phrases stuck in my head AND; I pondered THEM for quite some time, days perhaps weeks, can’t off hand remember how long.
So from there on in I collected enough money to get to London and bough me a one way ticket on Brannon Air Lines to Los Angeles.
I was armed only with knowing that doing the therapy was “up to me” and that my biggest defense was my intellect; that up until that point in my life I was very proud of. Now “by fuck” I was going to have to let it go.
It was, and still is MY major struggle. I can race right back into my head at the drop of a hat. But I had one ‘trump card in my quiver’. I knew just exactly what it felt like to be a two year old baby screaming at the top of my lungs “I am dying, I’m dying”. That one experience; knowing how differently being two years old and my mammy was gone and no-on came to me when I called out … set me off on a path that would have been a crib death … except my mammy did eventually turn up … freaked, when she saw me, because I was blue all over and she carried and shook me in her arms for over an hour … she many years later told me. She had left me in my cot (crib) but taking the other two babies with her because she realized she was upset to be pregnant with a fourth … to talk to neighbors. Her words to me, when she related that story to me in my twenties, was:- “Please God … don’t take the one I have and I’ll be grateful for the one that you are now giving me”
I repeat to you Patrick:- your “STUDYING” of Primal Therapy was the equivelant to my intellectualizing it; AND Wendy Campbell, letting me know ‘IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS’ that my intelligence was my greatest defense.
That scream “I’m dying” is still there within me … and will remain until the day I die. Ironically; maybe paradoxically; it saved me. QED
That’s a very interesting story, I visited the Campbells in Cambridge too (1974) I had no idea you did also. I wonder though why the QED Euclid was one of the greatest ‘head trippers’ and you still adhere to that. I don’t life will ever be a geometric proof.But thanks that’s a good story and gives me something to think (oops!) about.
The lazy-dog syndrome
I remember well my first lesson in classical geometry. The teacher (Miss Mannion) walked into the classroom, looked at us all very sternly, then turned to the blackboard and began writing the following:-
To prove: That a lazy dog equals a piece of foolscap.
Data: A piece of foolscap and a lazy dog.
Proof: A piece of foolscap = an ink-lined plane.
An inclined plane = a slope up.
A slow pup = a lazy dog.
Therefore: A lazy dog = a piece of foolscap. Q. E. D.
For the life of me I never remembered what QED meant, but my Jimbo informed me it meant “Quod Erat Demonstadat” What I clearly remember is that the teacher said to think of it as:- “Quite Easily Done” That’s what I mean when I finish off one of my ‘epistles’ with QED. No big task for me in other words. .Hope that clarifies my {s}tinking on this matter. Just by way of interest what did you get out of seeing the Campbell in Cambridge????.
Jack
Quod erat demonstrandum (QED) the way I understand it is “Thus is it proved”…………nothing to do with quite easily done. So for me it always means “I have proved it”. Anyway…………..meeting the Campbells was fine and I felt even at that time I VERY much wanted to do PT in England/Ireland NOT the USA. This was 1974 and they told me they should/would open in the UK in 1976. So I went back and finished my degree and then called them in late 1975. This was from a public call box in London no phone at home dumping 10p coins in like crazy to keep the phone from cutting off. Wendy Campbell who I was speaking to was curt to the point of being unfriendly and icily informed me there were no plans at this time to open in the UK. It was horrible news for me so I keep hanging on and asking/pleading ‘but you said etc etc’ At some point she announced in a kind of haughty upper class English voice “I have to go now I am hosting a dinner party”. Click……………..a bad day for me and I have to say after all these years my instincts about not wanting to come to the USA were sound at least for me. I came here because I ‘had’ to and that was the first piece of ‘violence’ I suffered at the hands of the PI or at the hands of my desperation to do it.
My Jimbo’s interpretation was very similar “”Thus it is demonstrated” Ms Mannion was of course just using a phrase as a manner of remembering the acronym. But since I was never able to remember the latin I stuck with the other.
Yeah! too bad about your second communication, phone call with Wendy Campbell. My second visit in their country home somewhere in Suffolk was met with something similar, but not quite as bad since I turned up with two others. Indeed on the second visit she was also curt and short, but since the first one was the one I took to remembering; I left it at that. What I got from my reading of “The Primal Scream” was the mechanisms of the DEFENSE system. Wendy Campbell made that abundantly clear to me, and that is what I took to Los Angeles and the Institute. Maybe I was lucky as I had been very aware of “Defending” when I read Freud many years before. Such than; when statement were put back to me by my therapist, I felt I knew where she was taking me, and was NEVER offended by that practice. Such questions as “What’s the feeling” were valid to me and I then had to do some head searching. These day I now do it to myself Like when our very own Superstar suggested that there was something going on with me about him I knew he had a point and set out to answer him/it. The alternative, for and to me, would have been to defend against his remark.
I have since understood she is the mother of Jonti one of the therapist at Janov’s center, from her first marriage. But don’t take my word on that … just part of the ‘rumour mill’ that floated around some time ago.
Meantime is there any chance that you could re-consider: it was your notion that the therapy was all wrong. Due to your perceived expectations … and that you yourself twisted the notion …. rather than consider that YOU wanting to be “right”. (a hallmark of neurosis as I see it) and why I quoted Shakespeare’s “Dear Brutus, It is not in our star; but in ourselves that we are underlings” Julius Caesar, for those not in the know.
Jack – you misunderstand an awful lot about me………….of course I would ‘re-consider’ and I do, I re-consider everything on a fairly regular basis as strange as that may sound……….but to be honest here I am very wary of expressing any ‘re-considering’ with you around I feel you will use it against me – maybe more my fear but anyway there it is. Also I think you do a lot more QED than me, your mind is ‘logical’ or ‘digital’ mind is much more ‘quantum’ or ‘contra-dictory’ at least it seems that way to me. When Dr Kruse talks about QED as he does quite a bit it means “Quantum Electro Dynamics” and that is more to my liking than Euclid. You are a bit in the past with that one…………………
Does anyone EVER fully understand any other person? I don’t think so. Feeling misunderstood is:- a feeling that I consider goes way back. Accepting that one will be, for the most part, minsunderstood is, for me, a better approach. If then I am asked to clarify, I will … no big deal. But that’s not how my Jimbo sees it. His response is to sigh and “oh! god” a regular statement my father was prone to use. So! seemingly, I picked a another Daddy.
Since we live in a world of interacting with other people and ALL we have to go by (my contention) is the feeling their re-action brings up in us/me … hense I re-act to just that, with the one caveat, that I OWN my feeling. There is no-other or thing to BLAME. I don’t see you doing that. Hence my pokes.
wow, two of the best things I have read you and jack write. Bloody magnificent; don’t know why but I’m lump in my throat teary. When you are not so pissed off that what comes through is just pissed off, you write some of the most astounding stuff, that really moves me. Same with USG. Nothing mundane or everyday ordinary from you guys, same with Otto. Being a survivor I know what we’re capable of and yet I hear stories and I too still say, ” How the fuck did he/she ever make it. Why don’t they end it.” Since learning the primal process I believe I would now only kill myself if stricken with incurable, painful disease that would have me dependent on personal care workers. That feeling of a rope around my neck has after nearly 30 aware years finally gone from staring blankly, mouth agape to me crying and pissed off. The bastards aren’t going to take anything else from me. Fucking and parenthood aren’t necessarily related.
This evening I feel a bit like Otto, basing on what he writes here. This evening I have zilch energy, no motivation, 0 drive or interest in anything except maybe eating. I don’t know how he carries on day after day. If I don’t primal out this feeling soon life won’t feel like worth much.
I’m remembering a photograph that I have of me taken when I was probably 5 or 6. In the photo my siblings and I are playing with Sta-Lox toy building bricks on the hardwood floor of our parents’ as yet unfurnished living room in their recently built house. I’m glancing toward the camera, but my look is hollow, as if I’m totally self-absorbed in design and construction with the Sta-Lox…as a way to detach myself from my need and my life. Even though in play with my siblings, my body posture has the look of hurting. I look very alone in my soul. I look like I have a big need to cry and be held and reassured. I never was. That’s still me. I never will get from my parents what I need, but I have to go out and make my way in the world anyway.
On 8/14/15 you asked:
Donal: Do you think that you might be more inclined to say the original study of the “4 meaningful minutes” is baloney because you possibly carry a bias related to your being younger and married for fewer years (and, thus more likely to talk longer than someone older and married for a longer period as implied from the second study)?
My answer: No, I do not think there is a bias. I think there are a lot of variables in married relationships. People go through stages where they may talk less, and there are a high number of possible causes, many which occur simultaneously. Furthermore, you cannot measure the quality of communication based on the number of minutes talking. Some drama queens may talk endlessly and achieve little in terms of connecting with their spouse. Others may be able to relate effectively and spend far less time talking.
Studies like this are only meaningful as part of a greater body of research that moves in the direction of much more specific samples, hypotheses and conclusions. Quoting the results of studies like this in isolation is done a lot in magazines and popular news websites, but it just results in people jumping to simplistic conclusions,
Donal
Donal:
Just to be clear, these studies were from an email I received and I don’t have a any real emotional stake in their correctness. It was just a light conversational piece to me that looked interesting, nothing more.
dear friend Donal; I once broke the covenant and posted some general, though I thought, worthwhile, article. The nettles stripes have nearly healed……. written with humourous attitude; ( I have disgust for acronyms, except for, ‘ IJPML ‘. ) and, they’re a bitch for sight challenged folks.
Donal: I am inclined to agree with you on this matter of statistics. The simple idea with respect to statistics is averages.. Were it is that there is only a need for a linear views of studies it would be very easy, BUT if one is serious about getting an overall picture of some type of events then there needs to be a sifting of the groupings to make a clear picture … but even then … because of all the possible endless variables, it becomes a major task to make those grouping and hence hard to give a clear general overview.
Why I feel there has been a great emphasis on statistical studies has more to do with the ego of those doing the studying. We are inundated with studies and in the end, most of the tell us little or nothing. Your comment demonstrated the case in point succinctly, as I see it. Do we in the end need them??? Therein lies a great question; particularly in the medical, and the mental health field.
I feel that Arthur Janov demonstrates the dangers of basing patients on some statistical analysis. In other scientific areas there might be some justification, but as I see it more to do with a continuance in some area of investigation rather than reaching (an assumed) conclusions. Otherwise I feel the reliance on statistics, gives no REAL answers.
Guru – I have noticed that ‘syndrome’ over and over again as relates to me. You could also look at another way I said something quite similar to Donal about the same subject -statistics’- but did he ‘agree’ with that. Of course not.Like I say I see him as a “PR” man above all else – just as his ‘hero’ Janov is at all times a PR man.
Patrick: Yes, you did indeed ……… but not quite so clearly. So!! if it hurt your “bleeding heart” (meant as a swear word) hope it give you another kick-off (your favorite sport … football) for a rant, tantrum or, whatever. You are becoming quite “cute” (another quote) at those.
PR man (for those still no yet in the know) Jack 🙂 🙂 🙂 .
I actually thought it was some kind of computer glitch that created multiple videos ( which tells you how much I know about computers) . If I wanted to censor I would not have left even one up. Of course now that Guru has explained it can overload a system I think it’s best to hit delete when too many videos are posted. We can always express ourselves with a exclamation mark or two !! Gretch
I don’t consider myself a hardware expert, and my info could be at least partially inaccurate. If I am on the right track, though, it would be the really long Youtube videos that would be the main culprits. Multiple 20-second Luke Skywalker clips may not be nearly as burdensome to a client system’s RAM as a 50-minute video of the “Boy Who Lived Before”. It’s possible that removing one of those two “Boy” videos Patrick posted would clean things up even more than the multiple short Star Wars clips..
Just….semi-educated guesswork. It wouldn’t mean much at all to modern PC’s with 16 GB RAM or more.
Thanks Guru, that ‘explains’ it I didn’t think Gretchen was a ‘censoring’ type but that’s pretty funny “If I wanted to censor I would not have left even one up” – what you must realize Gretchen it was all part of my ‘self expression’ lol at that particular moment in time
I am sorry it won’t easily happen again. The “boy who lived before” putting that on twice was purely an accident and maybe that gave me the idea that I ‘could’ do that. But again ‘sorry’ and there really SHOULD never be a reason to do that – but there I did it what else is new?
Just for the hell of it, I thought to go through U Souperstar G’s commnet with a few quotes. . .
Anywuz !!! where was I … Ah yeah!!!! “partially accurate” is that the same as beding partially pregnant?
“Multiple ……… clips” I thought those were what we used to keep sheets of loose paper togerther.
” …system RAM” I thought they were those animals with curly horns.
“Stars Wars” now there’s one right out of my stratasphere.
Worst of all “semi-educated” What school doesw one go to to get semi edificated????
and finally “gig”-a-bites. Isn’ that what musician do in night clubs. I know what “bites” are, cos they hurt
To get to Patrick; I find it a little bit weird that he gets so upsewt by being quoted. I am sure if Shakespear was still alive and had the same problem he would be up the wall, quite which wall I an mot sure. But anywuz, his referrence to Dr. Kruse on about Siesmology. I though there was a vaccine for that. but not sure what disease it is,
BUT me being a “Private Revelations man” I think it might be time for Gretch to ask Atty to clear it all up and just create Page 4 of Summer retreats and stasrt with a clean sheet. Yeah!!!! No!!!! ah well … I tried. Lofl or 😦 😦
When your trailer is off it’s hinges and on fire you can remember I tried to warn you. And no – there will be no vaccine for that. It will just have to burn
When my trailer is off it’s binges; will I remember that you tried to warm me. Yeah!!! I will. That … I suspect, will be around the time that you get a wife. So I have quite some breathing time. Meantime, I too am eagerly awaiting for your response to Grethen question … which I suspect will be about the same time.
You are for ever, going on and on (or is it off and off) about Arthur Janov’s promises, but it seems you are the in the same ‘kettle calling the pot’ syndrome.
I get a lot of fun outta you and Souperstar. . You’re both hilarious. Bye the way that’s just another feeling.
David: Not sure what I make of this comment of yours. However, on my third reading of it I will ask two questions:- Only a trainee therapist?? Is it possible to tell us who that trainee is/was??
One observation I have noted from being associated with a medical man:- my Jimbo, I find there have been many ‘turn arrounds’ made by the medical profession. I can only suppose I was lucky with all the shots I got both as a child and later in life. Seemingly I never suffered from any of them and at close on 83 seem somewhat ok compared with the many I see when I have to turn up at the hospital for periodic check-ups. That is unless unless Patrick has one more diagnosis of me. Always a possibility.
As I view him he’s forever finding stuff written that seems to set his mind ablaze that he contends proves to him that all’s not well with whatever he’s upset with.
It’s just that I see the best use of this blog is to talk about what is going on with ourselves. Not that I am even close to always doing that myself. BUT … what the fuck. It’s something to occupy my fingers with whilst keeping out of this heat.
No, I am not going to out the Therapist. Suffice to say a post primal patient, with a Masters in Psychology who began training as a Primal Therapist, in Los Angeles, and then decided after professional self searching not to limit the therapy tool box to Primal Theory.
Oh, my reason for posting the Rejected Shadow Child verse ?? I found it interesting and moving and thought that primal patients would recognize it for what I thought it was, a description of, ” us, ” the survivors,” of abuse. It certainly brought up feelings of self disgust in me again.I also don’t like to take credit for something that does not originate from me. Sometimes there’s really nothing below the surface to be sussed out, analyzed, or rendered suspect.
Consummate romantic and optimist I am, the truce, which I erroneously mistook for growth, and complimented both corners, has expired and we’re back to school yard name calling. Likely my fault. I stopped watching Red Sox baseball because I was jinxing them.
>
> by the way, Patrik, you still did not answer Gretchen’s question, despite it being very simple..
>
> you mentioned once it is hard for you to talk about what you like, seemingly specially about what you like about being on the blog…
>
> M
Margaret – are you (and Gretchen) naive or just being ‘cute’. Do you REALLY think I can write about such a topic with ‘rat philosopher’ gnawing and excreting all over my bones in a manner of speaking. I will be ‘quoted back’ up the ying yang and found to be a ‘crooked thinker’ some one who does not OWN his feelings, he will go on and on AGAIN for the about 100th time about how I originally came on the blog (that’s how much he gets ‘over’ things). So stop being ‘cute’ and just look at the reality of things around here. “Oh Patrick why don’t you write about what you feel about this place?” Please please stop being either so naive or so disingenuous that’s the ‘reality’ and you (and Gretchen) knows it…………….
See Margaret that is one thing I like about this place, I can answer you even it is only to explain how I can’t answer you……………that’s not so easy to find and pretty much ‘addicting’ for me………..will ‘rat philosopher’ leave this one go I wonder………..like I said SOMEONE it’s not going to be me needs to kick the d…. out of his mouth
>
> we went with mom to the neurologist yesterday, and she will be taken in observation in the hospital for a few days next week.
> severe memory problems and a very sstrong kind of tinitus she developed the last weeks need to be looked at, and hopefully they might be able to find a cause for the tinitus they can treat. that is not at all sure, most cases are untreatable.
> she hears like a strong stormwind all the time, sometimes changing in an earwurmlike repetitive song and it interferes a lot with her ability to hear what people say, and drives her crazy as it never stops.
>
> she is gradually getting more used to the idea of eventually probably going to a nursing home, but it still would be a huge decision and hard to do.
>
> we found a nice one right on the corner of where she lives now, but as there are not enough places for our increased amount of elderly people, she needs to have certain forms of a neurologist assessing her capacities to a point where she needs enough assistance..
>
> we take things one step at a time, and are glad she agreed to the observation days, in which a lot of examinations hopefully can be bundled as we always have to assist her and coach her into going which would be a lot of repeated struggles if all examinations would be separate. mom often agrees, but the next moment forgets she did and starts all over to question and discuss every little detail, hearing so poorly we have to scream for her to hear it, when she listens, not always the case, to then get into a discussion, as she always discusses even when we agree with her, to then come to some agreement, to then her forgetting again, to then being back to square one where she wants to be informed etc…
>
> exhausting, I am really so glad me and my brother work very well as a team now to deal with all of it and to take care of our mom as well as possible in every way..
>
> to be continued..
>
> and I have my exam neuropsychology next tuesday…
>
> M
Hello, Margaret; I developed tinnitus following a rear end automobile collision causing me whiplash injuries. The ENT Specialist I saw was a youngish Scottish doc who had previously worked at a large US clinic. He explained to me that tinnitus was caused by head/brain trauma resulting in the normal inaudible white noise frequency of the brain to be destroyed. He said the brain begins searching for a replacement frequency and unfortunately it will be an audible frequency, thus the tinnitus noises. He mentioned that ischemic strokes are a major cause in elderly persons. Finally he said he always ordered a highly accurate blood analysis to ensure that tissues are receiving optimum nutrition, vitamins, co- factors, minerals, and enzymes. Because deficiencies cause tinnitus and is correctable. He recommended I take one tablespoon of hemp seed oil daily as it contained all Omega essential fatty acids in near perfect balance. That surprised me because generally MD’s do not usually know anything about nutrition. But, he did,in point of fact have a PHd in Medicine. He told me that MD is sort of an entry level of medical training.
In California the sky in not falling at least yet but the ground is sinking and fast is some places. Dr Kruse has predicted a massive earthquake related to this problem. As the ground water goes apparently it majorly ups the chances of a huge earthquake. I mean that has always been a possibility of course in California but according to him the depletion of the ground water is a ‘game changer’ and NOT in a good way. I guess I am putting out as a kind of PSA……………….now if only I can take my own advice and get the hell outa’ here………….the world is getting scary the 6th Extinction Event is going ‘extinct’ some things all right lots of things………….can you imagine a quake like that even in the Central Valley fuck up all the water aqueducts and so on. Welcome to the jungle……………
THe most respected scientists on climate change and polar ice cap melt state that most of Florida will belong to ” Aquarius,” by the end of the Century; Miami under water by 2050, the threat unable to be thwarted. Other coastal states, he said, meet the same fate, noting that Americans may become the new boat people in one way or another. Canada’s Prime Minister has gagged all gov’t scientists, and issued an order that they not disclose to any body the rate of the Polar Ice Cap melt. Non gov’t scientists here are met with campaigns to discredit and defame them.
> Patrick, well, in this case Jack sounds like just a (lame, sorry) excuse to me, with all due respect,and of course I might be wrong, just saying what crosses my mind..
> M
>
> ha, another interesting ‘Attenborough’ bit of new knowledge about our animal brothers, monkeys this time, Cappucine monkeys use lime, piper plant and chili pepper, and onions to rub thenmselves with as both insect repellant and insecticide, and antifungus and antibacterial remedies..
>
> interesting..
> animal medication..
> and when they do run into these plants they get all excited and make it a kind of social festivity to have a rubbing party..
>
> then another trick is to gently bite a centipede so it excretes a liquid that is also a strong insect repellant, rub it on of course, and at the same time the monkeys get high during that process…
>
> interesting once more…
> M
My vacation in Spain is soon coming to an end. It has been fun and relaxing except for myusual communication frustrations. I’d like to stay here for at least a few more weeksbut it’s back to reality on Monday. My inability to express myself well in Spanish isrelated I think to my old pattern of holding everything in. I don’t like showing howimmature my level of Spanish speaking is with people here, which makes it difficult to make advances.Well, there are a very few people who I feel comfortable with and can freely speak with numerousmistakes but they aren’t always around. I guess that the same thing applies to my primal journey; I have to show my true self andmy vulnerabilities to advance my healing.Phil
WordPress.com
Margaret commented: “> > ha, another interesting ‘Attenborough’ bit of new knowledge about our animal brothers, monkeys this time, Cappucine monkeys use lime, piper plant and chili pepper, and onions to rub thenmselves with as both insect repellant and insecticide, an”
UG, Yes Spain has been very economically depressed but I can’t see it. It’s by talking to people or watching the news that I know it. Phil Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:09:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hi Phil – Glad to hear about your trip! That it has been fun and relaxing sounds great esp. when I remember how trying other trips have been.
Interesting – how you are seeing your own pattern with the language barrier and think that is great to make the analogy and go forth. Also, so nice to balance out with the times you are comfortable to express yourself and learn with a freedom to make mistakes.
I taught English in Japan many years ago. My classes were only about trying to build the confidence in the students to try & to make mistakes with it not being the end of the world… Their intellectual command of English was unbelievable!
My Japanese – huh! thank god my employers didn’t want me to know it nor translate at all 🙂
Trying to learn Mi.kmaq (meeg mawhk) in fits and starts; terrified to try out words on speakers; though it’s ok with my two, ” mentors.” They laugh at me, but we laugh together..
> I can’t believe what I read just now.
> are you threatening to put Jack’s trailer on fire Patrick???
> this is way off line, completely unacceptable, nuts, am short of words here..
> crazy and utterly out of proportion.
> M
Margaret – you need to pay a little closer attention, I was talking about some of the dire predictions for California of earthquakes up to strength 11 or 12.I don’t think such big earthquakes have ever been seen at least during recorded history. So as hard as this may be to believe by either you or him I was trying to be helpful. This may well happen here and for some reason I thought of Jack in his trailer well it does not take much imagination to think what might happen.
Jack of course dismissed all this and ‘jokes’ there may be a vaccine for it so I said to him when your trailer is on fire remember I tried to warn you. But obviously it is lost on him (everything is pretty much lost on him) but you seem to miss the point also. I did put on that song “Fire” which might seem a bit provocative but I dunno the words were strangely relevant to me………….of a person who has such ‘small’ concerns and how some huge fire might immolate them. Some of the words
You’ve been living like a little girl in the middle of your little world
And your mind, your tiny mind, you know you’ve really been so blind
Now ‘s your time burn your mind, you’re falling far too far behind
Fire, I’ll take you to burn
Fire, I’ll take you to learn
Anyway I was playing around with that song but it would be nice Margaret if you could drop this now and recognize were just mistaken. There is no need to spread this out over the next few days as I have seen you do. Maybe needing attention or a controversy………………….I do not need either one I plan to dissapear for a few days dueling with PR is fucking tiring and by definition I get nowhere. He makes sure it is that way PR man is very ‘static’ like that Primal people call if ‘defended’ I think
Quote: “I plan to dissapear for a few days ” Where???? Up the ying yang. That’d be nice. However, that will leave me lost and lonely until such times as you (will inevitably) come back. Then I can get back to more fun again.
Gotcha,,,,,,,I was just giving my reactions off the cuff. I thought you may be inferring too much into the snipper conclusions of these studies, but it seems you were not.
Anyway, I think this song addresses the topic well:
Your comment regarding the PR man from 4:00AM or so…it seems you are saying I am a PR man and Janov is my ‘hero’, but that would not make sense?????
Anyway, I agree with your statistics comment: there are an infinite number of variables…..messes with your head to think how these studies can reach conclusions that are useful.
One study I read in whole a few years back concluded that people, on average, would only live 8 months longer on blood pressure medication that those with hypertension who forgoes the meds. It seemed very solid. Perhaps the lesson is one has to read the study itself and not just the conclusions. But how many people do that??
Donal
Donal – to clear this up I was the one saying Jack was a PR man and Janov was his ‘hero’…………….my grammar was probably a bit sloppy. This had nothing at all go do with you and sorry if as I say my grammar was a bit rough and ready About you I was alluding to the fact I had a similar take on Guru’s ‘statistics’ as you did.
Donal: It’s Patrick that designates me with “PR man”, and a host of other things, and so I willing take on his designations of me. I suspect that Patrick would love me to get defensive about his designations of who I am or, what I am not, and then get into an struggle with him about it. I don’t wish to go there, but I have found (by pure accident) what irks Patrick. An boy does that give me a thrill (al-be-it a perverted one).
I get the feeling that others on the blog or, just reading it, might love the ‘Jack and Pony’ show; but for their own good reasons stay clear of it. I have no problem with it and quite the contrary get “off” on it (as I feel is obvious). BUT, as I see it, Patrick and to a lesser degree OSG, can’t either find a way around it or, out of it.
If one thinks about it: it’s a form of defensiveness … the very essence of neurosis.
On the matter of being a great admirer of Arthur Janov I sure am, and have told him so; AND I have absolutely no shame about it.
One last point I omitted, in an earlier comment where I recited the “Lazy Dog Syndrome” I meant to add that I find that is a way in which I see, many people actually think and speak. They’ll equate anything with any other thing, however unrelated; to prove their point. That is one of the factors that Thouless writes about in his book “Straight and Cooked Thinking”. I see it as a very good example.
Nothing changes for me unless I make it possible to happen. That’s why this therapy is hard to do and few want to. This therapy puts the course of my life in my hands. I wonder am up to it. Then I think, I won’t give up on me like they did. It’s not my fault that they did. It’s not my fault that they made my life so hard for me. I don’t know what’s coming, but I won’t give up on me.
So good to hear Larry! I know this is coming from deep within you – in a genuine way.
A good,sturdy foundation that you are building on and adding to.
I have just been thru some horrendous feelings about my dad not wanting to be here.
He hasn’t been for years – and he died at 54 years old. For the first time I felt that awful death wish that I must have felt as a young child. All I can say is that I knew he didn’t want to be here – and as simple as that sounds it is a colossal horrid feeling. Even now, it hurts to know…
Thanks Larry. I appreciate your words and empathy here and always :).
It is incredible how this therapy works – unfolding layer upon layer… I, unlike Sylvia – who I admire for being able to do so – have really needed the consistent and expert care from Gretchen and Barry.
I started therapy ~34years ago! and am continuously grateful for what I have done and accomplished in my life because of it. Perhaps its similar to our great marriage of even longer !! 37 years – it is not like I slog away in a dungeon for it but yes there is work involved – what feels like hard work at times in fact.
However, the rewards are huge & unbelievable!! Full life, living and love.
It amazes me how in all these years I have never felt prodded nor pushed to go to these new feelings for me about my dad. Of course I knew, as anyone would that self destruction was his sad mandate when he had his 1st heart attack at 40 and 3 others til his death. But to now actually feel – even finding it hard to verbalize – the devastation of his path as a child is unreal and yet so real.
Donal – your description of how individual & potentially rewarding this therapy is – how
“it does put our lives into our control” is so good!
Hi Leslie
You and Barry have been an inspiration to me, ever since I met you two, 32 years ago.
Your relationship is with each other, in public, has always been examplory.
Tom
In the beginning I really wanted someone, therapist or buddy, to be there to bear witness to what I’d been through, what had been done to me. To bear witness and to finally be believed ?That has waned over the past 30 years. Did anyone else have that need ?? I considered it growth.
Reading Larry it crossed my mind that it might be about hiding my feelings of need, which I can still do. No one in the, ” (un) real world wants to know anyhow.
Hi David,
I found it and still relish that I don’t have to turn myself inside out * to be believed. It was astounding & so re-assuring to have my interpretation of life and events not only understood which was huge but actually supported – wow!
My need of that help for me go forth into the hell of what wasn’t there in my early years is still there.
Not judging that for me or you – just is.
Have you had more thoughts about this since you wrote?
* BTW the movie “Inside Out” is good to see – animated so you have to be in the mood but such a great, Primal message!
I can relate to that, Larry; and I survived them on my own at a more vulnerable period.
An aside, this new page is now as wonky loading and exiting as the previous one had become. It was really fast for a while. I’m running Windows 10. Anyone having a similar experience ??
Hi Larry
A week or so ago, I was ready to chuck it in.
What’s the point of living. Can’t do anything any more. Family is fine, kids are fine, grand kids are fine, friends are fine.
I am not fine. I wanted to die. There is/was nothing I could do to make myself ‘happy’. I work hard at everything, work, relationships, family, friends and my volunteering.
But there is nothing that I can think of that would make me feel ‘happy’.
Like I said before…………I’m doing life.
And then I was thinking how will I DO old age? With carers at the door? Or in a nursing home? Or what? Sounds pretty gloomy.
Then a few days later I had this epiphany, thanks to you. The answer is …..yes…..wait for it…..is to take care of myself. What an eye opener.
It made me angry first. What? Give up on being taken care of? Blasphemy!!!!!!
Does that mean I may be growing up? Even if a little only?
Will it make me happy to look after myself? Who knows. But I really don’t have a choice, other than killing myself.
And I’ve never been suicidal.
All this tossing and turning in primal therapy. Exhausting.
Somebody………….make it easier………….please.
Tom
Larry,
Yes, this therapy does put our lives into our control: the rewards are potentially great, but we have to deal with the fall-out of what we did not get and build a life on the present.
I have no doubt you will persevere and continue to be successful.
Donal
> Fiona,
> it is mostly exhausting, frustrating, exasperating and causing a lot of stress at this point.
> but having my brother at my side helps enormously to be able to deal with it so far.
>
> Patrick, ha, that is a relief I missed the context of that image of the burning trailer.
> I admit I delete some comments halfway for lack of patience to keep reading them, and therefor might miss an occasional point made…
>
> and no, not only your comments, my patience and time is limited these days..
> too many misinterpretations and jumping to farfetched conclusions about what people imply etc. to my taste, little true communication, so well, thanks for clarifying.
> M
> my mom is driving me crazy..
> calling me repeatedly announcing she won’t go to the hospital then finally turning it into when and how and I should pack, she wiped the message off the big white board we hung up for her that her suitcase is packed already and already in my brother’s car..
>
> as she messed up the former white board by using a wrong pen, now she was gonna write down in her little notebook about the suitcase, but that soon got lost or she forgot about it one minute later or then lost her glasses etc., we went around in circles with her same questions over and over, I lost more and more of my patience with her endless discussions and questions, then she plays a guilt trip, ha, I hate it, I hate her at those moments!!!
>
> would want her to be in a nursing home, for my own sake, selfish as she can still be on her own with some assistance, but lord, she stresses me out big time and my brother too, our health gets affected bit by bit if this goes on for too long..
>
> soon we will have to put her before a clear choice, whether to acccept household help on top of the cleaning lady, or go to a nursing home.. (if we get the forms filled in properly that is, by the neurologist and the psychologist)
>
> we do all to help her but she makes it so damn hard to do so!!!
> I can feel how she makes my bloood pressure rise sky-high, and the stress invades me completely for a while, interfering with my own life..
>
> only yesterday evening she promised me to be more cooperative, apologised, was teary etc., today the phone goes again with her announcing bluntly again she won’t go to the hospital, aaaargh!!!!
>
> gives me a headache!!!
> her stubbornness and pigheadedness and always wanting things her way and always knowing better will get her much sooner in a nursing home than what would happen if she would simply accept advice and help..
>
> feel so frustrated, angry, sad,it hurts and pisses me off!
> M
> Leslie, sorry, the question about your dad was written and sent before I read some more about his heart attacks..
>
> it is so nice to hear you talk about your marriage!
>
> nowadays it is more or less exceptional to hear about long and happy relations, one would doubt they are possible if not knowing you and barry and then the other Barry and Gretche..
>
> my parents life seemed ok most of the time, my dad could still hug my mom and call her sweet nicknames in his last years, but then I found out she briefly cheated on him, my mom..
>
> she stopped the affair but then after he died it restarted and now he has been her ‘boyfriend for twenty years, despite being married himself..
>
> I hope my dad never knew, but I remember asking her once if she was in love with the guy as she behaved like a teenager whenever he would visit..
> she only told me years later they had something going for a little while then, but put a stop to it for feeling guilty towards my dad…
>
> it is hard to have all these second feelings coming up about my mom now that she is really getting old, so much of the old anger seems to be coming up at last..
>
> she triggers it by still being so bossy while needing to be looked after at the same time..
>
> willl be an intense week, her going to the hospital tomorrow, exam on tuesday for me, and then making my way over there to visit her, if she doesn’t manage to stop the hospitalization, she sure is capable of that!
>
> just finished my last rehearsal of the course of neuropsychology, an hour ago or so, still will look up just a few items if I find the time and peace of mind tomorrow..
>
> so good to have you all here on the blog, feels like a community..
> starting to rain again right now, the summer here is so variable this year, my cats still sneeze a bit, but they grow and are really developing muscle tissue now, strong little rascals, smiley, they are so very lovable!!
>
> one of them put a toy mouse on my pillow, smiley, my former cat used to put them in my slipppers during the night..
> M
> Phil, how is the return back home?
> David, no, sorry, you will have to gently bite the neck of the centipedes you meet, and rub them over your skin until you find the right species…
> and have some mosquitos at hand to check whether they are repelled or not..
> good luck!
> M
> lord, mom has only been three hours in the clinic, and already called me about seven times, forgetting almost anything I say, sometimes not hearing me at all due to the tinitus, now she heard my advice at least to have a rest..
> with a few calls to the hospital. to arrange for the ear specialist as well to see her, to halfsister and attempts to boyfriend to spread the visits and with a visit from my brother after he left mom at the clinic, not much time left for a last look over before exam tomorrow morning..
>
> still managed to do some work, as it changes my mind from the high stress level towards brain functions and neurotransmitters and memorry and attention, ha!!
>
> exhausting to say the least..
> to be continued..
> M
> sorry for ventilating about this once more, but it is hard to deal with.
> my alfsister had passed by my mom and will go by tonight again, but she called me saying mom is angry at my brother and me for taking her money, while it is simply in a locker in the wardrobe next to her bed, and the nurse has the key as my mom loses everything and the nurse would give it to her if she needs to take out some money.
>
> on the other hand it seems good she has no money at hand, as she might venture to the cafetaria and lose her way..
>
> my halfsister thought she shooud be at the closed geriatric ward to be safe, thought the’d maybe move her after a while..
>
> it is sad and distressing..
> now of course she is much worse than in her daily routine, but on the other hand it seems useful she is looked at as the symptoms of what is already going on are mainly intensified right now.
>
> she will either to have to agree with more help at home, or have to go to a nursing home,and we need the proper forms for that second option, which will occurr sooner or later anyway..
>
> glad I already studied my course, but fear my concentration will not be optimal for my exam tomorrow morning…
>
> told her a while ago she needs to be an adult now as she is no child, and be patient, and it seemed to help for a while, but soon she goes back to her rebellious stubborn self again, complaining about everything, arch!!!
>
> we do need the support of professionals, for our own sake, as things gradually seem to get too much..
>
> stages a lot of people will have to face with a parent I guess, pretty painful and stressful…
> M
> David,
> first pass exam hopefully tomorrow, then order next courses, learn how to use new electronical device with namual of 163 pages while waiting for courses to arrive, then back to studying for next exams, only about 35 to go just for the bachelor’s,… this is number 7 coming up..
> M
youtube. Watkins Glen Summer Jam 1973 Grateful Dead/ jesus. ugly filmmaking ugly people. are they jut ugly in new england? ugly colors ugly boobs. where is jerry? hey 1973 that was one of the worst years of my life. death on an unimaginable scale.
Grateful Dead 7-4-89 Rich Stadium Orchard Park NY . much much better. happy looking jerry. upbeat Bertha. upbeat crowd. song with a underscore of sadness, which always got me. today, no tears, too tired.
Wow. Actually got a big tear out. Z came home late and I was worried a little. Wanted to go to sleep. Bertha don’t you come around here anymore. Saw images in my head of the apartment I had on florida street in long beach when I was 25. Beautiful balcony. I was just coming out of a bad run, finally had a job printing photographs, still had hope that I was going to make great movies. I guess Bertha reminds me of z. we hooked up in that apartment, in my lonely lonely apartment. 39 miserable years later, it’s getting near the end. She wasn’t the whole cause of the misery, but surely some of it. I remember a picture of her when we were first together. We went to a stream down in orange county. I don’t know what about that picture makes me sad about her. Something about the shirt she was wearing. She seems so naïve and childlike to me. And bruised. There is a really really big feeling here, I don’t know why I had to get up and write this. There is a possibility that I will be able to come back to group soon, and that scares me. It also scares me more that with my luck, I wont be coming back. Beautiful bass line in Fire on the mountains. I just cant get it out of my head. I love it. Love is love and not fade away. My life is fading away.
Both going in the same direction on a two lane highway, passing a semi-trailer truck cab I saw on the back of the cab written in beautiful lettering: “I’m driving my life away.”
> most part of the exam neuropsychology seemed to go well, last couple of questions bit more hesitation, have to be patient now, ha!
> ordering new courses again a hassle, always hard to find recorded versions or pdf format, even finding out what’s available is hard, am working on ordering three new courses, next sets will be even harder as well, no blind seems to have gone there before me, at least not in the actual versions, so will have to find inspired solutions then…
>
> mom in clinic still often distressed, will go there in an hour, and tomorrow afternoon, have good contact with social services there, who monitor whether proper steps are being taken etc.
>
> feel tired and relieved at same time, exam seemingly well, big stressfactor less, good to face rest of stuff…
>
> glad girlfriend just texted she will come by tomorrow and give me ride to hospital, will be nice to have her around for a while, before she soon starts travelling again.
>
> kittens growing and sweet..
> M
Hi Margaret
What a daily struggle with your mum. You are a hero. She takes more out of you than everything else combined.
Parents………..
Good luck with your studies.
Tom
You are juggling a lot Margaret! I am glad other people are now able to assess your Mum for an extended time and take care of her while she is there.
So glad you have those kittens to love and cuddle & melt some frustrations away!!
ox L.
PS
Hi Margaret
There is a saying…..a mother can be there for ten kids, but ten kids cannot be there for a mother. You and your brother are positive proof that that is not a true saying.
Tom
> Tom,
> that sounds like a real breakthrough.
> go for it, take good care of yourself in every way you can think of, you deserve it!
>
> right now I feel confused about my mom in hospital..
> yesterday, visiting together with my half sister it looked like my mom had just had a stroke..
> she was hard to understand, mumbling, so we ended up warning the nurse, not a cooperative one, who even refused first to give any information about the examinations my mom had had that day, and then only gave a partial brief answer, saying a petscan was done instead of some days water,, maybe because of her state.
>
> in the room we heard of the other patients mom had also been checked about heart and lungs and bloodflow, I don’t get why the nurse coud not just say so..
> she insisted I had to make an appointment with the doctor for info..
>
> i felt very bad as it seemed coming to the hospital had caused so much stress or something she had ended up really bad, but still she kept talking, despite the mumbling, and did make some sense, so eventually I thought of asking her if her teeth were not loose, if she needed the teeth ‘glue’, and yes, we found it,put some on. opened the bottle on her table and gave her some water, and all of a sudden we cold hear much better what she was saying!!
>
> of cuorse that was still repetitive and frustrating, most of it, but at least the ‘stroke’ effect seemed mostly gone…
>
> despite her being a bit dizzy and certainly unable to find the way back up she kept insisting on accompanying us down to the entrance of the clinic, despite us saying no repeatedly and explaining to her why, and suddenly the stubborn and defiant way in which she kept saying, ‘no, I will come!’ got to me and I raised my voice telling her to behave normal,felt bad about it but it did seem to work as we kissed goodbye at ethe door of her room finally…
>
> tend to feel a bit bad, almost guilty about having made her go to the hospital, but on the other hand it was her constant complaining and insisting we help her that made us try it this way, hoping to do the best thing for her..
>
> also to get the proper forms for an eventual nursing home it is obligatory as she is physically not disabled enough and the nurses agreed with us it is not always a good thing to do to people, to force them to go through all of the tests, geting them out of their daily routine, but it is indeed the niw regulations forcing people to do it if ever they want a chance to be taken into a good nursing home..
>
> will go back this afternoon, and try to call for some appointment to find out more about the tests and results, but will have to make my way there on my own and that is scary too, as I will have to keep my mom from accompanying me as well etc.
>
> feel very tired and stressed about all of this..
> wish she would accept household help or enter in the home, it is a very nice one and she knows four people there from years back, a good start to make more friends there really..
>
> M
> thanks Leslie,
> it feels indeed good to have some others assessing the situation, and joining in for finding help and solutions to make the best of it.
>
> that nurse mentioned mom getting ‘serosept for her memory, have to look it up as it sounds more like some serotoninergic antidepressant or something.
>
> mom keeps accusing my brother of having taken her money away, despite us having told her at least 50 times her purse is in the safety locker in the room, the nurse provinding the key when asked, I have even put some money in her handbag to ease her mind, to no avail..
>
> on the other hand my halfsister said the day before she would have taken her money and key and left to go home, even in her nightgown if she had had the chance, so it seems a good thing anyway we did not leave it right next to her bed..
>
> it is so sad, hopefully something good comes out of it eventually, I still feel it is good she is thoroughly checked, specially for the noise in her ears that is driving her crazy, it would be wonderful if they could find a cause they can treat, like the ear infection or blood transit or whatever..
>
> M
> ha, what a relief! through the social service of the hospital finally got in touch with the head ‘nurse’ of the neurologic ward, a very nice man who gave me his direct number and brought me completely up to date about all the examinations, results and next planned tests, and medication.
> such a relief to have good information and also support, he was very empathetic about it being hard to take good care of a strongwilled elderly person, at home, or during the process of preparing a possible later move to a nursing home, or in a hospital.
> but he confirmed the importance of her being well checked out, and that felt very good.
> now gradually I get a good view of all that is going on, some things can be easily taken care of, like her left and good ear being clogged up and soon to be cleaned out, which will imporove her hearing a bit, despite the tinitus which might be hard to treat possibly.
>
> some arteries in her neck are half clogged, but no sign of recent strokes, and tomorrow an mri for more detailed images.
> he sounded so professional and trustworthy, very accessible and human at the same time, this makes a huge change to feeling connected and positive about what is going on.
>
> also my halfsister shortened her stay at a camping place so she will be more able to join me to visit her, also a relief!
> we need other people so much..
> M
> hurray, just got the unofficial notice I passed my exam!!
> and had a nice visit together with girlfriend to my mom, my girlfriend lost hers about two years ago, and is very nice and patient, it was good to be the three of us, had a nice time at the cafetaria despite having to repeat stuff over and over, mom did seem just a bit more relaxed which is good!
> so glad girlfriend came along, she will go for a couple of weeks to France again by the weekend, she is a very nice friend, honest and warm and with a great sense of humor.
> M
> had a very good talk with one of my mom’s doctors today.
> also about my worries about the medication, and about the situation at home etc., and what we expect .
> they will probably keep her till next week.
> they said she won’t be alllowed to drive anymore, which will be a huge struggle..
> I mentioned it casually, just to indicate maybe the doctors would bring it up, and she immediately responded ‘oh, but then I will simply say no way!!’, ha, I will let the doctors bring the message!!!
> but now after a long talk with the doctor I finally feel they have the necessary information, about the situation, about us, about what we want and feel, about her, and what we need, and are on the same wavelength..
>
> they should have contacted us really for the info if things were right, but anyway, now i feel more at ease about how things are dealt with, and I gave it some thought, and a low dose of that medication will probably be useful, and can be reevaluated after a while.
>
> mom certainly has had episods that can be referred to as psychosis, burying stuff in the ground, car keys, money etc.
> of course her story to the doctors had been she does everything by herself, cooking, shopping, washing, bank and paperwork, so it is good I adjusted that version smiley..
>
> so now it feels ok, mom seems to be adjusting a bit more as well.
> is pretty exhausting though, but the kittens welcomed me home and are a nice change of atmosphere..
>
> why is the blog so silent??
> have not recieved a mail today yet!?
> M
Congratulations Margaret on passing your exam! Even with all that was/is going on with your Mum – you did it!!
Hope you celebrate with kittens and friends!
ox L.
Margaret….well done for getting another exam under your belt..
It’s tough having a parent be so unwell, and I’m glad you have brotherly and kittenly support.
Missing my Primal Peeps today, hence I’m here, as there is no one local to reach out to.
Feel so low. In spite of tennis this morning. Cried missing my mum before tennis, and again this afternoon for my lost childhood. Nothing to be done, just get through it.
Thanks for being here, blog.
Margaret and Jo: I could do my part to fill the blog emptiness by telling you how utterly miserable and insignificant it makes me feel to do four loads of laundry on top of a load of bedsheets and towels, yet I have to do it anyway. Would that improve the blog situation any?
UG, I was referring to people I was with at the retreat and in LA…people who I interacted with in deep and fun ways, which I’m not getting too much of in my current situation.
I watched on PBS last night from 7:00 pm through 2:00am this morning; the last five hours was the “The Untold Story of the Civil War” that was the American civil war. It devastated me and yet I could not wait to see the next episode until I had seen the whole thing through. It was brillint television and remarkably honest on many levels.
My first hour of viewing was the building of Mount Rushmore. Just pure interest on my part. I normally go to bed at 8:00 or 9:00 in the evening and rise each day at 6:30 am. The civil war story deeply, deeply disturbed me for I saw in it, so much of my own countrymen; their hates and biases, and hence all that is ingrained within me. Much of this Patrick has been dilligent enough to remind me of quite recently. Patrick, over the time he has been on the blog, has said many scathing things about me. Most of true.
It’s almost like I am not sure where to begin to express the impact that whole five hours of my compulsive viewing. I am not sure if I have slept for the four and half hours since I went to bed last night or, wether I was just dreaming; and mulling over the total impact it had on me.
But; allow me to digress for a moment. I watch very little television these days other than the PBS Newshoiur each night, but I am very cognicent of some of the BBC shows that Jim (my partner) totally loves. The first is Downton Abbey which I hate with a passion and reminds me of all that is wrong with the English and British system. But as I see it those first English colonials that landed on these shores, brough most of that with them, albeit that they were for the most past the oppressed masses. We British have, to coin a phrase, “fucked-up” most of planet earth; by the shear necessity and greed to enforce our way onto the rest of the peoples or the world.
Now back to last night:- The lynchings and lashings that the slave master inflicted on their chatels: seared through my very viens and brough out in me at that moment, my very own ‘misplaced anger’ and I just wanted to take those doing the lashings, and give back to them that, that they had inflicted. I say “misplaced anger” because that was what it was. Had I been able to do so … it would have resolved NOTHING. However, I did see in their actions their own mommies and daddies doing something similar to them … and on and on ad infinitum. Just as it was done to me. That is why and how I came to know the ‘downright ugly’ about myself Then there was the insane bloodshed of the battles and the total madness of war. All war … wherever, and for what ever. I also saw and realized that the leaders of both sides were also equally to blame and in the end also resolved NOTHING. We (humans) are still fighting that war; and as I see it we will forever continue, because in the end it is ‘the misplaced anger’ within us all.
It does not have to be. Just as I see that the system we humans impose upon ourselves … does not have to be. BUT alas we are disconected from the very bases of our own birthright feeling-full selves. I am still devastated by that viewing, but by just in writing this, I begin to see some light at the end of my own tunnel. There may be more to come, and if it comes up, I will blog away right here. Meantime
Diligent?……………..I can do ‘diligent’ I suppose……………….but now I am working at being diligent as to what I get diligent about…………..I actually like what you write here but I do wonder if I was to say something similar wouldn’t it be found to be a ‘hobby horse’ some personal ‘head trip’ some species of not ‘owning’ a feeling or God forbid maybe ‘crooked thinking’…………..the biggest ‘sin’ of all as far as i can tell but I am sure I can commit even a bigger ‘sin’……………..oh well……………….
Don’t forget the Spaniards and Portuguese who settled in Central and South America. Lots of whites in Brazil, for example, practice their own brand of racism even sharper than America’s.
Cops kill people all the time in Brazil for minor infractions. They even assemble death squads specifically designed for such purposes. Even children are killed if they are troublesome enough. Tons of racial profiling. It’s a longstanding tradition of zero tolerance towards crime.
People in America have it easy in many respects compared to countries with higher Gini coefficients and lower human development indices,
>
> going to mom today with brother and his partner.
> she comes because she wants to see my kittens, but I am not so happy with her presence, my brother promised me to tell her to be gentle with our mom, will see…
>
>
> i am scared about what lays ahead when our mom goes back home..
>
> a nurse is supposed to come by daily as to make sure she takes her medication, and of course mom began protesting immediately she might have other things to do and not be home and then the nurse could put the pills in the mailbox, yeah, right…
>
>
> then when we promised her to try to make her come by early mornings, that seemed acceptable to mom more or less, but later on it occurred to me she might have to take pills twice a day, so then what???
>
> and then she needs to accept household care at least once a week, and worse of all, we have to tell her she can’t drive anymore, which wil cause a tremendous uproar…
>
> not sure whether to tell her now, so she can start adjusting, cause the doctors so far have not been eager enough to let her know yet..
> I don’t think it would be ideal to tell her right before she goes home, cause then we have it all on our plate at once!!
>
> I am a bit pissed with her boyfriend, I ask him for years not to let my mom drive up to his village, for meeting with him for a drink during the week.
> he always replied with that it is no problem for her, but now when I told him she won’t be allowed to drive, he replied oh it is no problem, I will simply go to her place and we can hang out there. it is only a ten minutes bicycle ride so he should have done that a long time ago already, as now my mom is fixed on needing the car to get to be with him, grrrrr!!
>
> the social worker tried to communicate with her yeterday with me there as well, about needing the extra household help on her return, and of course mom kept throwing up any objection she could think of.
> at a certain point it became clear to the social assistant this approach was not working, so she asked my mom’s attention, and repeated slowly and clearly mom would have to accept the help, or have to go to a nursing home.
>
> mom freaked out tha tat they could never force her to do that etc. for a while, and then became more reasonable about having someone over once a week to cook a few meals for her and do some shopping and other jobs was not the end of the world really…
>
> later on I talked quietly again about it and again there was the cycle of objections and when I assured her it was indeed possible she could be forced to move to a home if she would not allow the extra help, she seemed to get it somewhat and become more cooperative..
>
> for that moment anyway, as she wil struggle for as long as she can!!
>
> on other moments occasionally the idea of the home almost seems to appeal to her..
>
> i am so scared of what lays in front of us, the time between her, hopefully, moving into the home, and having hopefully a nice time there, and the being at her place and uncooperative or simply forgetful about what she needs to do and accept..
>
> not sure whether to simply make the car disappear, or to let it there and give the keys to her boyfriend so they can use it to go out together, although he has a car they seem to use hers often..
>
> I am inclined to pefer it gone but maybe the second option would be easier for her to accept?
>
> we might also use the argument of her not being insured anymore by the medical verdict, to make her adjust..
>
> feel so worn out..
>
> back home biggest part of struggle will fall on our shoulders again, and all the worrying and checking etc., I would really be so relieved if she would decide for the home at last, or if another fact would make it a clear and only option, that is nothing that would be too damaging, but well, this hanging between two fases is very hard in our situation..
>
> will have to go through it one step at a time.
>
> it takes a lot of effort to stay in touch with reality through all the emotions, it is very hard to take her car away from her, but as I told my brother, it is crazy to leave it if she is becoming a risk for herself and others, if it is simply because she feels she needs it to see her boyfriend, which is not true in reality, only his fault for having been opportunistic and lazy by leaving it up to her to commute too often..
>
> big sigh, sorry for going on so long about this, but I am glad with any little bit of feedback just for the feeling of support, writing this makes me suddenly teary..
> M
>
> where is everybody?
> I know my feeling is I am scared and wish there was someone to take care of me, and that won’t happen, but still it would be nice to have someone on the blog talk to me.
> Please talk to me, I am sad, I am scared, I am tired!
>
> yesterday when my brother and his partner were here before going to the hospital, she noticed part of my ceiling in teh living room had come loose, threatening to fall…
> probably caused by the upstairs neighbours who had just moved out their furniture, angruly so, after having been evicted for hardly ever paying their bills and rent..
>
> felt so overwhelmed by this extra and urgent problem on top of all the rest, that I thought the only thing to do was immediately contact my landlord, despite it being sunday, so I texted him.
> I told him it was probably easier and cheaper to fix now, than after it would have droped and hey, it must have worked, as ten minutes later he called and promised to send someone by to check probably tomorrow!
> normally he is very hard to get moving, so it feels good to have started to adress this.
>
> also asked my mom’boyfriend t tell her tonight she will have to stop driving, has to on doctor’s order.
> I asked him to tell her as he can reassure her main worry, that she won’t be able to meet with him..
> he said he can visit her easily instead of her driving over, ha, which is something I have been asking him for a long time to do without success…
>
> now he can take the first blow, as mom will freak out!
> still I think he is capable of ‘forgetting ‘ to bring up the issue..
>
> so much stuff to take care of, household help and nurse, probably twice a day to make sure mom takes her medication, and worst of all, making mom accept the help and care..
>
> have to contact household help service, nursing home to put her on other waiting list, and make an appointment with one of her doctors to have another talk to get updated etc.
>
> will visit her daily again next week, today one day off…
>
> have done my own household chores, and taken it easy otherwise, nice summer day, last one before temperature will drop tomorrow..
>
> best friend abroad again. actually only close local friend..
>
> no news from new courses and waiting for e-mail responses to finish ordering them before mentor goes away on holiday..
>
> afraid for time to come, mom at home, rebellious but also forgetful and bit confused, wish she’d enter the home soon so we can relax a bit…
>
> sad, lonely, scared, or did I already say so??
>
> still so far have done a good job at dealing with the situation, and will have to keep doing so as problems present themselves..
>
> gonna read some more, play with kittens, change sheets, gather trash and put it on street..
>
> one spark of light tomorrow, smiley, soap restarts after summer break, ha, is good, locally made and very recognizable, with lots of actual problems in storyline, and humor, and well played and catchy..
>
> hope new courses will get ordered soon, miss the positive activity of studying..
>
> so well, where is everyone?
> hello??
> M
Hi Margaret
I don’t know if it is any help to you, but I’ll try to describe what I went through with my mum and I hope that will help you handle your mum.
Her husband passed away, but even before that she started to get dementia, urinary tract infections (UTI), and didn’t take her medication in order, nor on time. She ended up twice in hospital. Both time as a result of the UTIs. It affected her memory even more and her ability to look after herself. Her infection was so bad that it was touch and go whether she would be operated on. The doctors asked my permission, as the operation could’ve had a fatal outcome.
As I was her legal guardian and executor of all her legal issues, the doctor and social worker approached me in the hospital, after her second time there, asking me about her life, her home and he ability to take care of herself.
They recommended that mum should go into a nursing home to be rehabilitated, and after a few weeks, a nurse and social worker would come out and interview her, in my presence.
Mum asked me”where am I going?”. I told her. She insisted that she wants to go home. I said she needs to get well first.
After the interview about three weeks later, an interview that my mum didn’t understand, the medical team recommended that she stay in high care, within the nursing home. I agreed.
I went to visit my mum every day, as she was around the corner from me. Every day she would ask me when can she go home. It was heart wrenching. after about a year, I told her that the day she is well enough to take care of herself, she can go home. That shut her up, as she knew that she is not capable of it any more.
Towards her end, she started to ask me again if she could go home. By that time she was very weak, at times incoherent and in spite of the good care, she still got the occasional UTIs.
She passed away two years after she entered the nursing home. It was time for her to go.
For me to agree with the doctors in the first instance to go ahead with her operation in the hospital was dramatic. I was making a life and death decision.
For me to make the decision to have her in the nursing home was equally difficult. I hated to be in a place where my mum’s life was constantly in my hands.
The reason I am sharing my history with you is that at times you have to make difficult decisions, both in the interest of your mum, and yours. Nobody, but nobody knows what you are going through. It is living hell.
At one time after a year with my mum in the nursing home, the head nurse suggested I take a two week vacation. I may have written about this before.
I couldn’t, I said. The the head nurse said for me to take a week off. I said I couldn’t. Then she said take a weekend off. I said I couldn’t. Then she said take a day off. Finally I said i will give it a go. So gradually I went visiting my mum every other day. It killed me. She was my little girl. I was hurting her. But it was the right thing to do.
I hope what i described above will help you. You are on a very difficult journey. My thoughts are with you.
Tom
Dear nobody. I am just writing this to vent, or to be a victim and crying for mommy to come save me, even though I know she won’t. I am not going to look for any replies to this, I just want to pretend that I am in group, and that I am finally able to get my share of the speaking time in group because my speech disorder (actually non-speech disorder) does not affect me anymore (in this pretend fantasy). I finally got a little money, I have back taxes to pay with it, and I live with myself and z, and we are both bad with money, and I think she is worse than me, but who knows, I do know that the money will disappear overnight, as it usually does. As I said, I want to pretend I am in group, and I am pretending that if anyone interrupts me with their own stupid shit that I have the fortitude to scream SHUT THE FUCK UP at them, and stomp off to the remaining small room and scream my guts out from the terror that I have been through in the past year. I can’t help anyone else or in any other way be a good group member, I barely have the energy to keep myself going. Why would I pretend that I am in group, when I could be going back to group, if I have a little money? Well, I am being advised that if I want to go back to a certain group, that I would have to do so somewhat reasonably consistent. Even though the really beloved members of this group are able to pop in and out whenever they want. Even though out-of-towners can come for a few groups during retreat time, with no questions asked. I don’t want any fucking strings attached to going to group; it is impossibly difficult to go to fucking group for me and be around people, even though some people are very supportive of me (but only to the extent that I do not push that support away). The only reply that I fantasized getting from my email query asking if it was okay if I come back to group was, “Yeah buddy, get your ass back in here as soon as you can, I will push 2 of my 20-year patients out of the way so you can sit comfortably in this ridiculously small room that we have as our new PI.” Yes, I know I am hallucinating about what was written to me and seeing stuff through old-feeling eyes. I know it is a major feeling about being the neglected kid compared to my cousins of the aunt who was my “mother” when she was still in High School, after my own mother died. I cannot phrase that better, I just want to get done with this writing done and over with. Anyways, Z just came in, her secret account credit card doesn’t work, and she needs more money for her camping trip with the kid; I have already thrown $400 into this trip, $400 that I wouldn’t have had if the extra money hadn’t come in,. so I let her have it; she really doesn’t understand any of my angst here, working 6 days a week, and lucky to get that small amount of overtime, overtime is going away, blah blah blah. Dog that had a long illness and that I allowed myself to get close to him, so that now that he is dead, I feel horrible all the time. Z says she needs $40 cash to go to the movies with her rich friend. Then after she gets back from the movies, she wants me to drive her to get groceries even though she will not be here to eat them. I got a cancerous cat in the bathroom who will probably have to be put to sleep this week and another fucking dog who is also probably cancerous and will need $300 of ultrasound this week to confirm it. Every Saturday Z and the kid take our only car and go out to eat, and buy overpriced snacks and come back hours later to rent insanely violent Samuel L. Jackson movies on cable, and turn up the fucking volume so high that my earplugs disintegrate while I am trying to sleep, then I have to drive the kid home at midnight. Sunday is my day off, but I have done nothing for myself for so long, that I don’t even try too much to do anything for myself anymore. It has been a million degrees in the fucking San Fernando valley forever, and will remain that way until December, and start being hot again in February. Wahhhhh wahhhh. I am sure I am acting out. What the fuck ever. I just really am having a shit time, and I want to pretend that my mommy is coming to save me. But she aint. So I will continue to overeat and watch the dwindling remaining episodes of House on Netflix and go to work tomorrow and have to deal with my asshole bosses and other people who I wish would just disappear, just have them go up into the Rapturd.
So many counter-currents happening in your life, Margaret. And in mine.
Sometimes I’m alone all day on a weekend, or the entire weekend, and I hate it. I feel awful, scared and anxious by the end of those days. So I work at how not to be alone.
Yesterday afternoon I joined my Singles Social group and played Texas Scramble 9-hole golf with them. It was fun. It’s the first time I’ve ever enjoyed golf. About 20 people from the group played. Afterward we went to dinner at a restaurant. Some from the social group who didn’t participate in the golf showed up for the dinner. I enjoyed all of it. My confidence in myself and my comfort and enjoyment with people seems to have move forward several steps since the retreat. The good feeling from socializing yesterday helps me feel a lot better and more hopeful about my life.
On the flip side, a watershed development with a friend could lead to a decline in the friendship. That’s never fun. We’ll have to see what understanding we come to and where it goes.
On a more serious downside, yesterday my brother-in-law collapsed while jogging, as if he had a heart attack. A passerby saw it happen, found him unconscious, called an ambulance and administered CPR until it arrived. My brother-in-law has been unconscious in hospital since. He is on a ventilator, and the doctors are considering cooling his core body temperature. We don’t yet know what is actually wrong with him. It doesn’t look good. I wish I was living in that City and province so that I could be of support to my sister. She is 3.5 years younger than me.
Barry’s dictum that the longer we live, the more likely we will suffer loss, is so true.
Larry,
So sorry to hear the shocking news of your brother-in-law! I hope you can get there to see your your sister and him soon. It must be hard to be far away.
ox L.
I second that, Larry. Well wishes for your brother-in-law. Hopefully he can buck the odds and pull out of this so your next visit with your sister won’t be an exceptionally sad one.
Margaret, I can’t believe the doctor plus social worker didn’t insist on definite permanent care for your mum…all that you describe that’s been going on over the months indicates it.. The boyfriend appears inept or something…. the struggle and exhaustion is going to continue for you… Why?? You deserve your own life.. sorry, if I seem out of turn, but it winds me up…
My father had some psychotic episodes after my mum died, and her dying coincided with his retirement.. Long story short he had an interim period of full board in a “bed and breakfast” as it was declared he couldn’t fend for himself..it worked for a while, then it was an easy step into residential care home. Of course I don’t know all you know, but it all sounds like a crazy struggle, and probably reminding me of my own conflict at the time…my brother was lives in Australia so no support back then.
Larry,
> yes, the image of countercurrents has often crossed my mind as well about my actual life, well, past 20 years or so, like constantly swimming upstream with just the very rare momentary relief of a short break now and then..
> sorry about your brother in law, hope they find the real problem soon and can do something about it..
>
> things like that are always so shocking as they confront us with the fact things can get wrong from one moment to the next, sometimes irrepairably so..
> JO,
> thanks a lot for what you wrote.
> it does give me a feeling of support as to hear another perspective and also to hear some of what you had to go through..
>
> a crazy struggle seems like the right description..
>
> boyfriend told mom about car yesterday evening, and she says she was ready to throw the first doctor announcing that news to her out of the window..
>
> wil have to make an appointment with the doctor today so I can talk with her tomorrow and look at the options.
>
> boyfriend thought they might not release her to go home maybe..
>
> she would probably feel betrayed and forced into something without her consent, understandably so..
>
> I’d rather have her decide soon by herself to move to the home, but well, will have to wait and see and deal with how things develop and how she behaves..
>
> will call home nevertehless and tell them papers are being prepared to allow her in at some point.
>
> will also call household help and ask them to give it another try soon….
>
> then nurse, twice a day if possible, luckily that seems to be for free, to my surprise, great healthcare system we have here!!
>
> niece interested in mom’s car..
>
> guy hopefully coming by to look at ceiling, lord, head starts turning and I did not mention a bunch of other things I need to take care of..
>
> last night one of the kittens slipped into stairway seemingly right before I went to bed, and I must have slept like a log as only at three I noticed there was only one kitten on my bed, and started going around the place calling the other, to hear it meowing in the stairway, poor little thing!!
>
> picked it up to comfort it, big bushy tail, it wanted mostly to see its brother, but also purred at being comforted, and I served it a big extra meal etc…
>
> now asleep on back of bed, purring again when being petted, ha, feel bad about myself for this having happened..
>
> luckily house was quiet, no upstairs neighbours to distress kitten even more in stairway..
>
> glad I did get up to look for it!!
>
> its meow is still not very loud, shit, I should have heard it, should have checked…
>
> was very happy to be back in, racing around with his brother..
>
> thanks again Jo, for honestly giving me your response, it did help me..
> M
Margaret: For some reason I felt compelled to say, “Sorry for not keeping up with your latest goings-on in depth very well. I’ve had so many things on my mind lately I haven’t been able to emotionally stay in tune with you.”
It’s not that I don’t care, but rather I have so many thoughts appear in my head concerning a broad variety of pressing items that I try to follow up on. Too many things to doooooo….
I do hope you are able to have your mother peacefully settled down for an appreciable amount of time so you can relax.
Hi Margaret,
I really like what Jo and Tom have shared with you – & I know you do too. It must be so hard to make decisions that your Mom is against. However, when the Dr. says no driving her keys/car must not be accessible as it appears your mom’s desires can overtake the rational solutions. Your kindness and consideration shine thru again when you ponder that the car might be handy for your Mom’s boyfriend to drive when they are together. However, as you said he has a car. Hopefully your niece getting the car comes thru and puts that dilemma to rest.
Hard for everyone and must take so much time, patience and energy to keep on top of it all.
Thinking of you!
ox L.
ON GETTING OLD
When I was younger I used to think:- “Why don’t the old people just move out of the way and let us young people run the show?” Now I am one of those ‘old fogies’ and I am not sure that I want to get out of the way and let the younger ones take over. I am not quite sure why. There was a phrase that I have often heard:- “growing old gracefully”. I personally have not experienced that. There’s nothing ‘graceful’ about me getting older:- the hair is dropping out, though the hair on my head still refuses to go grey, but that’s not the case with my beard. The eyesight was never that great, but in my twenties I learned about contact lenses and got rid of those pieces of glass dangling on my face. That was great. Meantime in my early seventies the arteries began to “clog up” (Patrick’s diagnosis) and walking became limited to no more than half a mile before needed to rest. The hearing is beginning to decline, but again I did test out an expensive hearing aid and hated it … so I will do without all that and what I am not able to hear I will learn to live without. The ticker does from time to time give a slight chest pain, but so far the cardiologists thinks that’s ok for now, but I take one pill once a day for it.
The memory is not quite as acute as it used to be and sometimes I struggle for maybe up to an hour trying to think of a person or place name, until … mostly get it. The wrinkles, about and the bottom especially, has become droopy which I hate, but since these days I don’t have that great desire to run around naked, I can for the most part hide it. And lastly the belly is still not bulging which pleaseth me, but I put that down to my Alexander technique I got into in my twenties. The only other factor is the energy level, but since I am long retired, does not bother me unduly, but this current heat wave in California is energy draining.
I see life being about laughing, crying, being angry, feeling terror, dancing, singing, chatting and communicating with others. There are some others of lesser importance to me, like writing and reading blogs. However, that sums it up for me, and hope that my body does not totally fall apart, and my brain does not go into undue crazy mode: assuming it already hasn’t
I refer to the above as:- “the bits dropping off” and I do not like it, but there is little (not from the want of trying) to prevent it, other than what I am doing with my therapy. I do feel that the brain is still in relative full function mode and hope it continues till the moment I drop dead. But who knows. I also feel very lucky that I still have a relationship of 35 years with someone that cares greatly for me as I do for him. We laugh a lot and joke with one another even though from time to time he upsets me as apparently I do him. As I see it from this moment, I love life and I have had a great life should I “pop my clogs” tomorrow, albeit that I did indulge in a very severe act-out:- sex addiction, which left me with HIV. But rather that one; than some of the alternatives act-outs that I am aware of. My one hope is to not to become bitter, resentful and/or regretful. So far so good.
Why am I writing all this on this blog is for no better reason than when I began to get into my senior years I did wish that there was some writings from others going through those end of life experiences. I was never able to find any. So!!! like most, I just have to face it as it occurs, and hope for the best. I hope my recounting my experience offers some awareness to others … but in the end this is MY experience and no-one else’.
Thanks Jack – sounds like you are in a good place – leading the way with a healthy balance of reality and genuine living each day. It is great to hear all that Primal has given you, not just here but throughout your posts. So many people never get to experiencing their feelings and that wonderful/(horrible at the time world) of release & revival.
Wishing you continued good health and love!
L.
Hey! Leslie: that was so good to read and assured me, after some doubts, that it was ok to express myself about these ‘getting older moments’, least-way with one person. I do feel that most of us from time to time look inwards and wonder if …… But the words that stick in my mind the most, are those that Viviain would often utter at retreats:- “Take a risk”. I will forever do just that … of course, at the risk of making an utter fool of myself.
Just saying the above put me into a feeling when my father, after my mother had spent all day getting us ready for the annual Christmas party at my fathers work place, and he, my father, I assumed, did not want to go, and so just said to my mother:- “Look at them” (all four of us that was). I remember feeling so awful and so inferior and so stupid.
Then my mother replied “Gilbert … I have just spent all day getting them ready” My father paused then said, “Alright … let’s go” and we kids just cheered; like only kids can. We looked forward to that Christmas party each year … weeks in advance. BUT it did leave a scar.
So thanks Leslie, both for the acknowlegment and for the feeling it brought up.
I hate watering these fucking plants. Corn, squash, tomato. They all look about as healthy as me—not healthy. Like I said, I am only going to use this blog to express my thoughts, probably not going to interact with others, even if it was the smartest thing I could ever do. Anyway, I hate trying to cut the hair off the maltese’s butt so he doesn’t get shit caught in it. He wont help out and stay still and so I nicked him. Tomorrow morning I call out sick so I can go have the lump in his throat ultrasounded. Z and kid have gone camping, and I feel lonely, even though I rarely want to be around them anyway. Sick cat in the bathroom, most likely cancer, but I cling to the belief that she has a fungus, so I give her antifungal medicine. I hate giving her medicine, she is a pain in the ass about it. I also hate going to work. I might have done something wrong the past 2 weeks in inventorying computers at work. I was probably not diligent enough. I was supposed to be in charge of 8 computer techs who went around the hospital on a Saturday, scanning every piece of computer equipment in the main hospital. I hate being in charge. I was in charge for many years, and I am lousy at it. They all wanted overtime, so we all went in on a Saturday to do the scans. Long story short because it doesn’t really matter. I suppose if I wanted to write a book or movie, it would or could be made to be interesting and funny. You know, how they came up with a procedure to do the scanning when Small Boss led them around to scan Thursday and Friday night. How Small Boss tells us he loves us in the daily meeting WHICH BORES ME TO TEARS EVERY MORNING AND SAPS MY MOMENTUM. Or how he has tattoos on his arms since he was in the military and sometimes his voice starts sounding like Popeye. Or how the newly-hired ex-marine who cant stop talking about girls was the one with the key opening offices so we could scan the pc’s, and probably missed some of the offices while TALKING TALKING TALKING. Or the other 7 guys were bumping into each other while they went into the offices with their scan guns a-flashing. Or how maybe someone (ME?) did not tell them how to use the scan guns correctly (come on, they are highly-paid computer technicians, they would ask if they didn’t know how, right? NO, EVERYONE IN OUR GROUP IS AFRAID TO ASK BECAUSE THEY DON’T WANT TO LOOK STUPID! Or about the black guy that was always happy to see me has finally gotten a new job so he won’t have to travel 100 miles to work every day. But the job is in Texas, and he was kidding another black guy today about the way they treat blacks in Texas. Or the Chilean guy who I thought I hated because he was aligned with the bosses, but I found out he was either kicked out of the inner circle or never was in it. But I still call him Perro under my breath, because I have been trying to master the trilled Spanish R since 6th grade and because it is similar to his name and it gives me 2 milliseconds of joy every day. But I just don’t care anymore. Long story short, I run some reports about how the inventory looks today, with my menial brainpower left at age 63 and also undiagnosed dyslexia. There will be an inspection team coming in 8 days to sample and see if all the computers are where they are supposed to be. The government could probably save millions if they put radio chips on the pc’s, and they were tracked real-time, but then people would get laid off. I am only telling you this part of the story in this order, because I will forget to tell you that part. Never mind, I don’t understand either. Now I forgot what I was going to tell you before this. Too much acid and pot years ago, or alzheimers starting up. Anyway the bosses came to me as I was ready to come home early to watch the 2 dogs and 2 cats while Z is camping. Watch the dogs and cats because the house is old and the a/c kicks the electricity off sometimes and also sometimes in heat like this, the whole neighborhood electricity goes down. So I could make sure the animals don’t get fried. But anyway, the big boss struggled with his words to be politically correct because he is an asshole who does not know how to be politically correct. (I actually feel some empathy for him, but nevertheless, he can go fuck himself) He could not understand why, if we scanned the entire hospital, that the report said there were computers that were NOT scanned during the days when we went scanning last week. These 1000 computers show in the database as having been scanned months ago, and if they had been scanned the past weekend, and uploaded to the database, then last Saturday’s scan date would be on their record. So I had emailed the boss earlier today with the report, and noted that either the pc’s had either been moved elsewhere and not scanned at the new location, or that somehow we had not scanned them on that Saturday, or that the scan data had not uploaded properly. Whatever, he and smaller boss went out the door, and I heard him say, well I am not going to be the one to take the hit this time. Which means what? Who knows, stokes my paranoia. What kind of hit had he gotten during the last inspection? He wanted to be boss so bad, go fuckyourself bitch. He waited to the last minute to start the scanning process anyways. Now he wants to know how to produce these reports so he can do them himself. The crazy legacy database system that we use, written by some ugly doctors in New England decades ago, and which should have been retired decades ago, that database requires tricks and kicks to get the info out. Sure buddy, I will be glad to waste my time showing you every detail, you micromanaging son of a bitch. Anyway, work is fine. It’s just that I mumble to myself all day long “I HATE BEING HERE!” 30 years is just enough now. Ok even though it is cooler today, at 5:30pm it is still too hot to go drive the rental car to the park to walk the dogs. Z wanted to take our car camping, so once again I get the dregs. No satellite radio, even though satellite barely has anything on it that I want to hear anymore. Wow, I feel so much better now that I put this to paper! I might be able to go through that box of bills that has been sitting on my desk for months! Or call my brother, or Son #2! Nah, just kidding. I will go buy steak and pizza since I wont have to hide what I am eating since Z is away. I am SO FUCKING DEPRESSED at this stage of my life. And there is NO WAY OUT OF IT! Or actually there is a way out, but most life on this planet actively scurries away from that exit plan.
Otto,Besides just putting your thoughts here on the blog I hope you try otherthings. Talking with a buddy about all this same stuff might give you betterchance of connecting with feelings. Also, because I’m understanding you’reshort of money for therapy and that’s help you can get for free. Your life sounds really difficult, I hope you can get some relief.Phil
> yesterday brought up news about driving prohibition with mom, doctors had told her already but she had forgotten, and I wanted it to be well adressed while she is still there, as she goes back home on thursday..
>
> big turmoil, so I took the heat, at some point just put my arms around her and gently rocked and eased her, and she started crying, and a bit later she became angry again, etc..
>
> very hard, exhausting, distressing.
> my halfsister was there as well and at some point told my mom she should not accuse her kids of being responsible, as she hurt us, while we do everything to help her, and she added she felt my mom was being selfish about that.
> the nurse also intervened and told my mom very kindly that all I and my sister had been saying to her was because we loved her so much and really cared.
>
> it was hard, but felt like a necessary stage, better to adress while she is still there and surrounded, as we will take her car away before she gets home to avoid her simply using it,as she would certainly do.
>
> I worry about the period before she goes to a home, but at least the grounds are getting prepared for when it becomes unavoidable..
> M
> dear Tom,
> thanks so much for sharing your story.
> it does help, makes me feel I am not alone in this.
> we have to make a very hard decision right now, we already told our mom she cannot drive anymore, but we plan to move her car away before she gets home, as she said she would still drive it even without insurance or a driver’s license ef necessary..
>
> if we leave the car and just take her keys, she will certainly try to order a new set, and give us hell about giving her the keys back with incessnt phone calls and endless arguing..
>
> so it feels kind of mean and cruel, but to save ourselves and her that long and pointless struggle we all tend to think it is better to just remove the car altogether…
> then she will be mad, but it might be for a shorter time than the endless arguing and discussing which wears us all out and really hurts..
>
> she is not reasonable in these matters, just wants things her way, and this seems the clearest way to get the notion acrosss she will not be allowed to drive again, period, as otherwise she will not give up struggling..
>
> a hard thing to do, and we cannot be certain it is the best option, instead of leaving the car there and just removing the keys for example to start with..
>
> as you say, we need to think of ourselves as well, and our own health risks to be affected if this goes on for too long,as there is also the struggle about the nurse and the household help etc.
>
> I brought it up with her yesterday at the clinic, and today the doctors will also adress the driving issue with her in a clear way, so she has some time to start adjusting already..
>
> as she is so set to get it her way, it feels like it is the only option really to just put her before a fact and keep it as short as possible..
>
> she even threatened to kill herself, but backed down when i asked her what she just said and muttered she did not really mean it..
>
> a bit of emotional blackmail mixed in with real distress..
>
> held her and rocked her and told her she could cope, that it was not the end of the world and let her cry..
>
> but it is hard to be confronted over and over with her being stubborn and unreasonable, like’ nobody tells me what to do, I will do it my way anyway, you must be the ones having set this all up to start with, etc. etc.’
>
> she has to learn to accept advice and help, and she can, but with us, her children, it is very hard to do..
>
> that is another reason why she might be better off eventually in a good nursing home, well surrounded and with pleasant company, as she does like people and feels bad for being alone too often..
>
> sad and difficult, so I admire what you managed to go through with your mom Tom, it is indeed very very hard..
> M
> Leslie,
> yes, I start noticing it gets really hard to find the time and energy to deal with my own stuff, feel worn out when I come home..
> wonder how things will evolve when she gets home/
> my brother agrees the car must go, definitely, but he seems to be ready to take over more care again when she refuses the household help.
> told him he will have to draw a line somewhere when necessary.
>
> on the other hand takes a bit of the pressure of me, to know he is prepared to do so and I don’t need to make sure at all cost she accepts the extra help.
> if that is what he wants, well ok, I will just go with the flow and we will see how things work out..
> M
> Otto,
> if that poor cat has no fungus it is cruel to force the fungus medication onto her!
> get a hold of yourself at least towards your animals and do what is right for them, in this case, as you do your best mostly seemingly.
> M
> Otto, sorry, I did not continue reading your post until the mentioning of considering an exit plan, but still, I do not see why you’d keep giving medication to that cat that has no use.
> please take care, of them and of yourself
> a clear ray of light in all the struggle, just got my results from the exam of neuropsychology had a 9, hurray hurray hurray, really cheers me up, feel very good about that!
> M
Hi Margaret,
I am so glad you have your own other life throughout this ordeal with your Mom. I am on the sidelines cheering you on and again sending you congrats for your exam so well done!
You seem to be doing all the right things with/for your Mom – allowing her to cry and be sad and giving her ‘a heads up’ about what is coming.
It sounds absolutely exhausting – both being there for your mom, and confronting all the decisions and plans for her life.
Hope you can separate that what she has to go through is not about you – to not take it personally as best you can.
A good nursing home can provide lots of positive things. I do not see it as such a negative thing as so many do. Yes, some loss of privacy etc. but I have seen a few cases here where although the elder did not want to go they soon enjoyed the social interactions and 24 hour care they received.
Take good care of yourself and your kitties!
ox L.
>
> had an intense but constructive afternoon with mom and halfsister at hospital.
>
> was able to kindly tell mom again in a simple and very direct way that tomorrow when she goes home her car won’t be there anymore.
> at some point she started crying deeply and intensely, telling us not to talk to her at that moment, and she cried about how hard it is to accept it and deal with it.
> she cried for the right reason and worded it, I held my hand on her shoulder and afterwards told her how proud I am of her, and my halfsister did as well.
>
> mom worded she will accept it but that it is hard, then also wanted to hear it from doctor, so we went there with her, and there too at some point she said she would accept it, for her children mostly, but of course on other moments started arguing again as well.
>
> it is almost certain she will forget again all of this, but emotionally she has breached a wall of defense, and I am indeed proud of her.
>
> she sounded very more lighthearted and relieved afterwards, and even talked about moving to the home as well but well, that will wear off again too.
>
> she did want to go there again for a look, and iI told her I’d like to go to to see those old folks I know since childhood as welll, so she was eager to go together for a visit there.
>
> so well, tomorrow will still be very hard when she gets home and her car is not there, but an important step seems to be made today in the process of accepting.
>
> I am proud of her, really, and of her capacity to feel when necessary.
>
> later on she also mentioned how important it is to go through life lightheartedly. special little person, my mom.. makes me teary to write this..
Margaret,I have been following along and am so impressed with how you havebeen taking care of your mother even though she can be stubborn, difficultand forgetful. Also, congratulations on your test results!Phil Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:25:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I’ve been back from my vacation in Spain and my family is all back nowtoo. I had some days alone before I left and when I came back and hada really terrible time. This is nothing new, it’s something I’ve often experienced.I get triggered Into a load of bad feelings of abandonment and a bunch of other stuff.Being alone that way can feel like being punished. That’s what my mother didto me. I got spanked and left alone in a bedroom. Or at other times just leftalone and neglected. Also, my mother just totally shut me out, as far as I canremember, and didn’t give me anything. She and my father messed me up big time. When I’m on my own in the present I can still function and go to work, it’s free time which can be triggering. I can connect with old scenes and get some relief that way but it isn’t quite enough because when I’m done the situation still exists and the feelings return too soon. Phil
I heard something to-day I thought was a bit funny/interesting. This black woman was saying when Martin Luther King Jnr went to the US Capitol he did NOT say “I have an issue” but he DID say “i have a dream”
Quote: “I heard something to-day I thought was a bit funny/interesting”.
On a day when many news organizations around the world are reporting fleeing refugees from their homes; many women with their children and babies … now stuck in central Europe and not able to move on.
Then a viral picture of a Syrian 3 year old boy’s body in a red tee shirt, washed up on a Turkish shore
It saddens me deeply
For someone concerned with the worlds troubles … this day you seem merely amused about a now famous saying of Martin Luther King Jr.
So now I am doing ‘wrong’ by NOT talking about the world’s troubles……………….I wonder what your ‘old feeling’ is to drive you to such nonsense……………I am well aware of what has been done to Syria and Libya and Iraq and have no real reason to repeat it here………………as also it is always dismissed as some kind of ‘acting out’ by you and not only you………………and if I remember at the time you thought the bombing of Libya and earlier Yugoslavia was a fine idea……………..so a bit like your ‘guru’ Janov you are pretty clueless politically………………….Janov might still wonder why the Arab world is full of ‘hate’ and speculate as to their deep deep first line pains but I see him say nothing about for example the little Syrian boy just washed up on a beach somewhere…………better to ruminate about the past and watch movies about slavery and of course the holocaust at all time the holocaust but as for as the total destruction of countries not so much……………….though you seem to have suddenly woken up jack-off or jerk-off whatever the name you go by………….
Hello, Patrick; I composed a paragraph that I was very proud to write, and as so often happens when I write something politically inflammatory the gremlins swept in as I hit post and wiped it away. It was both emotional and factual and I don’t feel the energy to try to reconstruct it.
I opened by saying, ” I canna see the look on your face but I doubt it’s one of surprise, ” when you wrote the comment to which , in part, I am replying.
Syrians have been murdered, over 300,000, disabled, 1.3 million, and dispossessed of a homeland and fleeing, 12 million. This has been going on for 5 years. The greatest humanitarian crisis since Nazi Germany. And to our esteemed historical glory, our Countries also turned Shiploads of Jewish refugees back to the open seas. Today we’d just say, ” Hitler, smitler, a tempist in a teapot,” and go back to texting, tweeting; a continent of twits. TRUMP for PRESIDENTE…And our cowardly governments have sat on their hands. We created and armed, first deliberately, then accidentally,( maybe,) ISIS/ISIL. And instead of eliminating this nuisance we merely piss them off swinging our fly swatters at them from a cowardly anesthetized distance. They are the optimal political diversion of convenience. Russia is making noises of sending troops to assist al Asaad. It’s all WWF or NHL script writing.
Bashir al Asaad conducted Syria’s Extreme Torture facilities for George W Bush’s ,” Coalition of the Willing,” of which Canada was a willing partner, in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. One Canadian citizen, Mahir Arar, free only because his educated physician wife mobilized a country of furious citizens, while our gov’t did nothing to protect him, was paid millions of dollars in a human rights settlement. Our gov’t / RCMP delivered Mahir to and provided erroneous to the CIA who transported him to Syria for extreme torture.
The dead 3year old Syrian baby boy was refused entry into Canada with his family, even though they had family here willing and capable to be their total sponsor. An NDP MP hand delivered their application to the Canadian Minister of Immigration, Chris Alexander, a, ” Chuckie,” clone to the Prime Minister, on the floor of the House of Commons over a year ago and has yet to receive a reply. We have a gov’t that lies shamelessly, and with impunity. We live in a Country that the UN has declared commits Human Rights Violations against Canadians.
To date Canada has resettled 803 Syrian refugees. Germany is accepting another 800,000, this year.
The genocide of Arab Peoples in the Middle East closely approximates the recipe for the extermination of over 100 million First Peoples / Indians, of Turtle Island which the European savages renamed North America. The average age of Arab men in the slaughtered areas, Iran, Iraq, Palestine is quoted as 37 years. Their counsel of elders has been obliterated. They will be resettled all over the globe, and lose language, culture, and ethnic solidarity. That is the goal and hope of the descendents of the Inquisitors, us..
We are a shameful culture of bullies, pillagers of the natural resources of unaware countries that allow us to come in to do business; much in the style of our rape of Iran, Cuba, the list is long.
I box of French Bonbons will be sent to every reader….
Today they removed the respirator. After my brother-in-law collapsed from a heart attack last week, it was at least 15 minutes before they got his heart going again. He’s been in ICU in a vegetative state since, and on a respirator. Most of the time he’s been breathing on his own. The decision has been made to remove life support and whatever will be, will be.
He is about 60 years old. Still in their teens, my sister was the first in my family to get married. Theirs were my parents’ first grandchildren. For over 40 years with my sister he was at all of our major family gatherings, a fixture in my life. He was a tense, fidgety, argumentative, cynical person, tolerable and amiable enough, not someone I sought out for company but I’m sad and surprised how deeply I cried that his time has almost run out and soon he will be gone for all of time and never really had a fair chance at being content with life.
I’m sad and cried too how much I lost as I get older. Those family gatherings, with Noreen, now cherished memories are gone forever, along with my youth. More and more as I get older, the hallmarks of my life disappear and I’m left more and more on my own, alone to make my future. I cry and go back to being a baby abandoned and afraid and alone, and baby cry the need that now I finally accept will never be met and know that for all of my life I will have to find my way without the parental love that I needed.
My sister is getting a lot of support from a lot of people and coping OK at the moment. Nevertheless tomorrow I will drive to Winnipeg to be with her and family.
I wish she didn’t have to go through what i went through. I wish she didn’t have to suffer loss. I expect that after everyone has returned to their lives leaving her to hers, that she will start to experience just how much her life will never be the same again without her hubby.
The inevitability of loss, of limited time running out, impresses on me that I only have this one stab at life. There is no master planner with a ledger listing me as deserving a second chance because my parents were incapable of parenting. There is just Nature, just those who can find a way to, surviving, and those who can’t just falling by the wayside. Mercy and justice are artifacts of human culture. Nature shows none when your heart stops for 15 minutes and then starts beating again perfectly fine, everything is perfectly fine except the bits of brain that died from lack of oxygen in those few minutes that can’t be undone and so you can never go back again to how it was just moments before, and after 60 years it’s time to accept that I can never go back and help the baby that I was to get what I needed and repair the loss that starved the rest of my life.
one day after feeling, I apologized to baby me, small boy me, for the horrid abuses done to us, told them they were a beautiful part of me and I wanted them to stay forever, but that I , adult me, had to take over the decision making , that they did not have enough experience to run our life. That hurt as much as waking up the first morning, of many mornings, after my 4 year old daughter died. Accepting that that damage could never be undone. How much did it resolve anything long term, I don’t know for certain. It seems I recognize more and more the old hurts that get turned up by daily living.
David – I like that “more and more the old hurts that get turned up by daily living”…………to me that is the kind of right path for primal not so much buddying, sessions and “repeats” of all kinds……………..
Larry, It is too much shock and sadness that you and you family are having to endure! How tragic for both you and your sister and your spouses to go thru such horrors.
I’m sure your love, wisdom,comfort and understanding are and will be such support for your sister.
ox L.
> mom is back home..
>
> spent the whole morning on the phone, after having called the hospital that morning to check whether they had removed the clog in her ear they had detected the second day of her stay there.
>
> despite they gave her eardrops to soften it they had omitted to remove it, so it was good I called, but to my disbelief the head nurse, a guy that had been friendly so far, was short and disinterested, telling me she should go to an ear specialist to remove it at home, or to her local physician, as they had a lot to do that morning and little time..
>
> I protested of course, and finally he promised halfheartedly to try and get it done, but he could not promise…
>
> after the call I started feeling more and more pissed off and frustrated, so after a while I tried to call the ward there for nose, ear and throat treatments, but in vain, the receptionist put me through to the wrong phone, and then they kept putting me through several times to end up on a phone that kept rining without being answered.
>
> then I tried calling their social service, but the lady I knew was in a meeting.
>
> then I pondered calling mom’s home doctor, but that did not feel like it would be very useful..
>
> I got more upset with this unbelievable fact of my mom entering a clinic with her biggest complaint hearing problems, they detect rightaway a clog, and 11 days later they are ready to send her home and force her and us to get to a doctor there to remove it!!!
>
> so I gave it a try again and called the hospital, insisting to be put through to the right number this time, and finally got hold of someone in charge.
>
> still reluctant at first as well, asking but how many days have those drops been given, my answer about nine days, she disbelieving, doubting me, finally asking mom’s name, then saying, well no, only since august 25, which actually was what I said, so again I explained it was not acceptable to send her home without this being dealt with, and finally she promised to take care of it, but could not ensure it would be done by the time mom could leave, so she might have to stay a few hours longer.
>
> which then again forced me to recheck with the other appointments for the home nurse who would come by and visit at our arrival home so she could come later if necessary, etc…
>
> so irritating and exhausting, but finally when we got to the hospital the clog was removed.
>
> we also got the necessary paper, a brief and very simple form saying my mom suffers from dementia, nothing else on it, no gradation, no specifications, all that work and all those tests to get a simple form like this, which had to be put under the neurologists nose to get him to sign as he would forget to do so otherwise. the nice social assistant had taken care of that bit for us..
>
> so now we have the form which enables my mom to get on the real list to make a chance to get in the good nursing home in her street..
>
> everyone says now,including the doctors, and also my brother, my mom is not really fit anymore to live on her own..
>
> today the nurse comes by who is supposed to give her her midication, and a wash,but mom might send her or him in this case back home soon…
>
> the wash is another crazy rule, if they would only come by to give medication, thy would charge for it, not a large amount but certainly becoming large as it is on a daily basis..
> so we needed to ask them to include the washing, then it is completely free!!
> told them to bring it in a way like’ shall I give your back a nice wash?’
>
> at first back home she did not even notice her car was gone, for several hours, but when she did it was not too bad, she protested and muttered, but no tears.
>
> the cry she had at the hospital was crucial, a real thorough and deep crying.
>
> might still come of course, as she keeps forgetting..
>
> then it has to be seen if she accepts the extra household help who comes by once a week if things go well…
>
> in any case I think it might only be a matter of months,unless she really cooperates with the helpers and gets a bit less confused..
>
> and of course there must be a place available in the home, and noone more urgent before her..
>
> so still worries, but at least major steps have been takes,.
>
> her house doctor also came by, I had called him in the morning, checked my mom, and her ear, the clog was really gone, an dpromised to keep an eye on her..
>
> she suffers most from the strong and continuous tints, but not much to do about that, there are some remedies but the specialist at the hospital did not think they were useful in mom’s case, too invasive and too little chance for succes.
>
> so well, fingers crossed for the next stage.
>
> next week we go for a drink with mom to the cafetaria from the home, she wants it and we want it an dthen hope
> efully we can meet some of the people there she knows from years back, and feel more inclined to go there.
>
> she goes back and forth now between feeling like going there and feeling she definitely prefers her house..
>
> to be continued…
> M
Larry,
> that must be such a painful situation, specially for his nearest family.
> wish you can give and get some support with each other.
>
> am exhausted today;
> our mom’s cleaning lady is worth her weight in gold.
>
> she helped us in so many ways that go far beyond her job description..
>
> too tired to go into things today..
>
> situation still worrisome as mom is having a hard time about her car etc., ‘losing her privacy’, try to help and support at best, asked her boyfriend to give her a call, he first said I tol her I’d come by tomorrow, I replied she does not remember those things at all..
> he is such a weakling and selfish sometimes, but promised to call her.
> will call her later on, brother will go see her again tomorrow probably..
> M
Quite by accident I was biking past the Nuart and the new movie about Steve Jobs had just arrived. I wanted to see it because it was made my Alex Gibney who always makes movies I like very much. He has made them on L Ron Hubbard (Scientology) Julian Assange, Lance Armstrong, Eliot Spitzer and more and they are all very good IMO.
This one……………….I would say yes it’s good well worth seeing I would say. It is far from being some kind of hagiography of Jobs maybe more the opposite shows a lot of the ‘ugly’ and maybe not so much of the ‘good and the bad’. He was adopted and apparently the couple who were due to ‘take’ him did not want him because they only wanted a girl. So they found just someone else ‘on the list’ who agreed to take him. Neither of his ‘new’ parents had gone to College and transparently his birth/real mother held things up until they would agree that for sure they would sent him to College. Not to get too ‘primal’ about it but I sensed all this had a big impact on him and he had a hard time with ’empathy’ every afterwards and had a kind of very mixed up feeling of being ‘rejected’ by his real Mom and being made ‘special’ by his adoptive parents
He comes across as quite a flawed and troubled person and very driven but not happy or at least in only rare moments. He dabbled in mysticism and meditation especially around the age on 18 – 20 and there was no mention of any connection to primal therapy though I have read he dabbled in that too a little bit. In a ‘mock therapy’ place using Janov’s terminology though Janov also ‘claims’ him as a sometimes ‘primaller’ in the blurb for “Life Before Birth” (That could be called one ‘marketing man’ (PR) using another marketing man (PR) again)
One interesting thing for me is apparently he was a very strict vegetarian his daughter describes him eating kale soup and once he found out there was butter in it he spat it out. It reminded me of Michael Holden and i would wonder what that did to his health. He died comparatively young maybe around 56 y.o. and he seems a very broken man at the end of his life. For some reason it reminded me of a biography/movie about Howard Hughes a few years ago. I suppose a typical American ‘success’ story which means really a ‘failure’ story in another and maybe truer sense. Anyway all that is just my take I would recommend it, Guru I can imagine you might like it.
I kind of wondered what would have changed about his life if he had ‘really’ delved in primal therapy? In some kind of ideal world it probably would have changed a lot for him and he would not have taken a lot of the roads he took but in the ‘real world’ as it was at the time…………..if he came to Janov’s PI I imagine he would have lasted about 3 moths tops and then he would have said ‘fuck this’. This is the trailer
This song was in the Steve Jobs movie………………..and I thought the voice so soft and beautiful the kind of softness and empathy that at least I can only find in ireland. Dolores O’ Riordan (Cranberries) is the singer. Otto is this after your time? early ’90’s I think……………
The movie I watched tonight was excellent. “Still Alice” about a woman with early onset Alzheimer’s. It brought up big feelings for me. It was the way one of the daughters
related to her sick mother and took on the role of being strong and taking care of her
at the end of the movie that really got to me. I guess it’s that no one was ever really
strong like that for me, like I needed.
Phil
Phil – I saw that movie during the Winter and I liked it very much also. Your use of the phrase “It brought up big feelings for me”…………..I dunno that always makes me cringe a bit like it is very ‘jargonish’ and also something not ‘individual’ about it like treating yourself as just an example of a group or ‘group thinking’. I remember way back in the day some of my friends and myself used to mock that way of talking it feels like ‘jargon’ and dare I sat it a bit ‘cultist’. I will probably ‘regret’ saying this and I will have to ‘pay’ for it in one way or another but this is a place we are supposed to be able to just give our reaction and that is mine. It has to do with feelings as being is some special realm almost outside of real life……………which to me was Janov’s big mistake (which I probably will be made to ‘pay’ for also – anyway I CAN say it so I appreciate that)
Speaking of that I find myself wondering if this movie maker Alex Gibney was to make a documentary on Janov and PT what would it say or be like. My first thought is it would not say MUCH, like is there even much to say. That’s not necessarily a bad thing after all most of these guys where there is a lot to say are ‘tragic failures’ pretty much……………….Janov would not fall into that category he is ‘smarter’ than that he has a lot better ‘self preservation’ instincts (maybe too much of that lol) but at the same time as something that was going to change the world PT I mean……………is like a firecracker that mostly never got going. Like something that went off with a bang and ended with a whimper to change up TS Eliot’s poem a bit
Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
Quote: “Your use of the phrase ‘It brought up big feelings for me’…………..I dunno that always makes me cringe a bit like it is very ‘jargonish’ ”
Of course! For someone that never gets “a feeling coming up” and THINKS crying is stupid and childish … would CRINGE at anything other that having an angry tantrum while slinking around the Institute. Then, to make matters worse plays being an authority on Primaling by suggesting, sessions, groups and retreat are NOT the way to do (your version) of proper Primal therapy. Maybe you were doing PT whilst sitting in the office at Gentle Giant for 17 hours a day for all those (25) years.
Why don’t you set up your very own Primal organization ???????? You’re a good enough salesman to get some clients.
Jack – you as usual miss the point (deliberately?) no I don’t think crying is ‘stupid and childish’ but I see how it can be and has been turned into something ‘people want to do’. They ‘want’ to feel or ‘try’ to feel and it becomes almost a fetish……………….with all the sad and predictable results we see here and all over PI land. As far as ‘salesmen’ goes you ARE a PR man but I don’t think you can talk to people much without getting their back up so not that I am looking to fill that ‘position’ but the answer would be an easy “NO” for me…………..
The fact that none of these kinds of issues (‘trying’ to feel etc) can be talked about without first of all you as an attack dog pouncing on any perceived ‘
heresy’ is very telling and very typical. You do Janov’s unpaid dirty work for him very diligently. You are what in politics is known as a ‘useful idiot’…………
Hi Phil. I know what you mean about the movie bringing up feelings about your mom. Good that you could get to that.
Last year I saw “August; Osage County”, with Meryl Streep. Her character is a matriarch type with a vile temper who takes narcotics to deal with her mouth cancer pain, but overuses them to deal with past emotional pain. It reminded me of my mom and her red-hot temper, which was very scary at times, always lashing out at someone.
I was so engrossed in the movie, I thought afterwards: I hope Meryl is okay with her health. Funny how we buy into those feelings of the character or situation of a story.
I remember reading about ‘movie night’ at the P. Institute, where the whole group by the end of it was weeping with some feeling brought up.
Sorry Phil, know your comment was not specifically about your mom–but feeling in general about someone being strong being not there for you. Must have confused it with my ‘stuff’ and prior ‘mom stuff’ you spoke of. Hasta luego.
S.
Sylvia,
We already returned “Still Alice” but I would get it again because of the impact it had on me. No, it didn’t specifically remind me of my mother; I’ve yet to see a movie that
does that. The movie you mention, “August; Osage County”, also sounds worthwhile.
It’s actually my wife who picks out the movies and she comes up with ones I often
am reluctant to watch, but they usually turn out to be feeling oriented and good.
Phil
Phil, if you can find, ” Away From Her,” starring, Julie Christie and Gordon Pinsent; it is so not Hollywood; real to the core; losing someone who still lives; intensely moving.
David, I’ll look that one up, “Away From Her”. Sounds good. Movies different from the Hollywood norm are usually the type we are looking for.
Thanks,
Phil
i am putting stuff on this blog to keep from losing my sanity. If i seem like a dumb ass, bitter old man, victim, self-absorbed, wallowing in my own misery for decades, that’s right. Go fuck yourself. I am not saying go fuck yourself to anything i have seen on this blog; just my paranoia says, that for the things I have written here, that is what people would say of me. Anyway, doing my 2014 taxes 6 months late, and i am also wallowing in fear full-blast. We got less income last year, but the IRS will always want more than their fair share. I am not cowering, just lashing out like a wild animal being attacked. Or maybe it was infant-me that was too attacked in too many ways.
Otto, I always read and empathize, and never have the urge too tell you to fuck off. I am however at a loss to say anything helpful. This is not to be sarcastic, but what feedback would be comforting for you to hear?? You must have inhuman inner strength. I’m an old pal of hurt, pain, hopelessness and isolation, too. Before Primal I was completely capable of killing myself. Got interrupted on my one planned trip out. Decided I wanted a peanut butter and strawberry jam sandwich for the trip. So glad I was interrupted. My kids weren’t supposed to come home after school and did. Fuck, the thought that they would have found me in my car. It wasn’t them that interrupted my exit. It was a friend. There are times I’ve been rightly pissed that Primal took that away from me. But, I survived the horrors as a more vulnerable little kid, a baby. I can handle this. Not, fun, not pretty, when the shit dials me up, but I can. No one’s ever gonna get more out of me !!!
I read your blog post concerning Steve Jobs. Do you remember my blog post from January 26, 2014 where I provided a supplemental reference article detailing, “What kind of Buddhist was Steve Jobs, anyway?”
I was a bit disappointed you didn’t seem to remember this link I posted from 20 months ago. And here I thought all the links I provided and everything I wrote was special and fantastic..
Guru – thanks for that. I vaguely DO remember……………but also I remember not reading it. I remember reading the beginning and I dunno you know how it is so many links so little time…………but I read it all now. Quite interesting and relevant to the movie for sure. More thorough than anything the movie got into but it was emphasized in the movie also, it was clear there was some kind of big influence there. Seemingly it was something that persisted throughout his life and informed a lot of what he did. Which come to think of it is another reason I found Janov’s kind of trying to ‘claim’ him at the time he put out “Life Before Birth” distasteful AND dishonest……………..distasteful also in that Jobs had died right around that time. Jesus Christ talk about ghoulish using of someone who had just did and was NOT a ‘follower’ of yours. Disgusting! and very low/no class……………..
Are you more a Mac person or Windows? As far as seeing the movie I don’t think it matters I imagine you would find it very interesting. Have you seen any other of Alex Gibney’s movies I have never seen one I did not like and like a lot. It has even crossed my mind today to try to contact him (now do you contact someone like that) and see if he might be interesting in making one about Janov and the whole PI thing. I think he would in many ways be the man for the job and actually maybe I will try.The PI is too ‘obscure’ and ‘unknown’ for most of these high profile guys but even that (to me) would be a fascinating idea like WHY is it so ‘obscure’ and ‘unknown’. It was supposed to change the world after all. BTW Janov has said recently a ‘biography’ of him is being written but I wonder by whom? Probably some ‘insider’ flack that’s why I think it might be very interesting to have a guy like Gibney give it the light of day and the oxygen of investigation.I would not mind appearing on camera I have always wanted to be a star lol…………….
In the Jobs article you sent I liked this ““You’re perfect just as you are — and you could use a little improvement.” doesn’t that kind of sum up our dilemma somehow anyway thanks for that and in future I will pay more attention to your ‘links’ I hope……………
The world seems to have shocked by the picture of the little Syrian boy washed up on a beach in Turkey. Guru – since you reminded me of your old links you can also read where I ‘predicted’ this kind of a situation 2 years ago. It is an ongoing and deliberate dis membership of a State by the usual ‘bad actors’ Israel, the US and the UK. They are systematically and deliberately wrecking Syria but all we are supposed to be is ‘deeply saddened’ to quote PR man we are not supposed to look behind the curtain much.
Anyway given that that is the horrible situation now we are dealing with I took a quick scan here of the news and here is the reaction in Ireland from the Irish Times
“Irish Deputy PM Joan Burton has said there is no “upper limit” on the number of refugees Ireland will take.
Speaking on Newstalk radio on Sunday, Ms Burton said she did not want to put a figure on the numbers of refugees and migrants because it is an evolving situation.
“Ireland has to and will step up to the plate,” said Ms Burton. “As a country that is what we have always done
“The Government has had a number of detailed discussions, particularly the decision to send the navy and the decision to accept whatever number we are asked to accept.”
Asked what the figure would be, Ms Burton said it would be “the figure that we need to take”.
“It could be 5,000, I wouldn’t like to put an upper limit on it.”
And here is the reaction from Israel
At the cabinet session, Mr Netanyahu coupled his remarks on Syrian refugees by saying that Israel must further secure its borders against African migrants and Islamist militants.
He announced the start of construction of a new 30-km (18-mile) stretch of fence along the frontier with Jordan, which signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1994.
Israel completed a 230-km (143-mile) barrier along the Egyptian border in 2013. Israel and Egypt made peace in 1979.
Israel has fences on the Lebanon border and along the line between the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights and Syria.
So that’s right Ireland and many other countries that have nothing do with the problem will open their hears and their borders but Israel which to my mind has essentially caused the problem will build a wall against them. Is it any wonder people become a little ‘anti-semitic’ to use a word.
I don’t know for sure why I would want to stay on this topic since life can be such horrible drag as it is even without focusing on dead children pictures, yet I will indulge this briefly.
All you have to do is go to Google search engine, type “children killed” and click on “Images”.
There are plenty of pictures of dead children out there from all sorts of circumstances, but why did the news media choose to show that one PARTICULAR child out of many? Was it to raise an issue that serves a powerful person’s financial or political interest in the background? I can research this topic enough and find stories of plenty of children under the age of three dead and mangled in car wrecks, all with an unknown picture behind them.
I hate the news media in so many forms, yet there is no choice but to consume the stuff or else there would be nothing. (ie. “you either take your thin gruel or starve, Mr. Oliver Twist”)
Guru – I dunno it seems/feels to me there is something very emblematic about that picture. Also being just washed ashore like that, the ocean is supposed to wash ashore if anything dead fish/animals not dead humans. Also his death is symbolic of a whole people the whole Syrian people are dying so to speak so he is their ‘representative’. To me the picture is very powerful and very tragic and sad. And it makes me angry too like I say I ‘predicted’ all this on this blog about 2 years ago if anyone cares to look, not that I think or thought that makes me ‘smart’ or anything. It is/was obvious this was going to happen…………..ever since Obama just casually said “Assad has got to go” He had no right whatsoever to say that it is hone of his our our business. Can you imagine some Syrian saying “Obama has got to go” But that is the level of our arrogance and ignorance and so long as we continue being Israel’s b….. worse and worse will continue to happen…………………..
I ask this of Patrick or Sylvia or anyone else for that matter:
Have you seen this article detailing how James Holmes, the Colorado theater shooter killing 12 people and injuring almost 100 others, received a bunch of love letters from women all over large parts of the globe along with spending cash for his jailhouse stay?
Some of the mail was turned away by the county sheriff’s department because the envelopes had lipstick and perfume on it.
You know…..I don’t even have a parking ticket to my name and I would LOVE to have lots of women send me love letters and cash. It would really get my breadwinning juices flowing inside of me instead of struggling with being a paralyzed stone while time marches by alarmingly fast. What am I doing wrong here? Where are MY love letters?
Guru – that is a very odd thing and I have read about it several times before. Doesn’t Charlie Manson still get love letters? I think there are two kind of different things happening here though. One is some kind of natural ‘pity’ for people in prison, also they are ‘safer’ than having a relationship with a ‘real’ person they are after all safely locked up! And I suppose people project their own feelings of imprisonment or hopelessness etc onto the prisoner.
But I think another aspect of it is ‘celebrity culture’. These guys like Holmes or the Menendez Brothers or OJ or whoever are celebrities in that they are in the news and really are kind of ‘famous’ or ‘infamous’ take your pick. So Guru for that to happen to you you have to get yourself to a prison AND become famous or do it all in one go by going to prison and becoming famous at the same time.
In my ,” former life,” I was shocked by learning how common that is.Canadian Alan Legere, dubbed, ” the Mad Butcher of the Miramachi, was not only inundated by women vying for conjugal visits but marriage proposals; finally marrying a journalist. Legere is a convicted rapist and serial killer of helpless people, including elderly nuns. I once did an assessment on a woman who left her husband and children to become the official self appointed concubine of the Maritime Canada prisons. Her application was denied… ha
I write songs, TSUG, and wrote one expressing the thoughts and sentiments you mention. Shit I’m a pretty okay guy and no throngs of babes… hah
Whoa, that’s the most I’ve seen you share, ” a paralyzed stone…” You seem cool; but no love letters from me, I’m straight.
David: I’m 110% straight, too, but it’s not all about the love relationships on their own. Just the idea that lots of women would want to pay spontaneous attention to me without any urging on my part would be a huge part of the gratifying testosterone/endorphin rush. I feel like it would loosen a lot of internal blockages for me, at least for a while. It would send me into a “superhero” modality. I’ve seen it happen to me before on multiple occasions.
I have no further comment on the blog in this direction even though I could say a lot more. Nothing personal.
I’m still shaking my head about these mass killers receiving all these love letters. The worst crime I’ve committed was being pulled over one night in 2011 and I received a warning ticket because my car headlamp was burned out. I still have the warning ticket in my glove box as a cute little amusing souvenir. Nary a love letter to be found in that glovebox alongside the ticket.
Yes Guru, you are very funny. I’m sure you could find lots of confused, unstable, emotionally needy gals at a bar. Know you are too smart for that. It seems the ones who are writing to him have also suffered mental problems and sympathize with him.
Sad that women are so desperate for love with their perfumed letters.
You don’t really want adoring letters–you have all us for that. S
Quote:- “What am I doing wrong here? Where are MY love letters?”
Using a pseudonym that I suspect puts most women off. Gurus, for the most part, are not thought of as romantic creatures A real first name that does not violate ANY form of privacy might … jiut might, garner some romantics letters.
> my brother went to my mom yesterday and cooked for her, and to my surprise also brought her for a short visit to my place, which was nice, altough she still feels a bit dim..
> don’t know if it is the medication or her not hearing well at all because of the very strong tints..
> wil check for a new hearing aid to replace the one she lost long ago, maybe that will help.
> gave her a strong hug which felt good.
>
> woke up crying this night, dreaming first she refused to respond to me, or react to my attempts to get a reaction out of her, felt bad.
> then when I cried for feeling so sad and lonely she suddenly came up to me with her arms towards me, and I cried, and said ‘keep loving me still..?’
>
> woke up crying, which is exceptional, there can be intense crying in some dreams but now it was also real at waking up.
> felt good though to finally get to some of the pain..
>
> my brother also went to see her as he wanted to check if the medication did not make her too dopey, as then he would cancel it, but he said she was ok really..
>
> the household service stil did not call, but I do not mind as otherwise it might get too much at a time for our mom, want to leave her some breathing space without too much interference in her life at once..
>
> today she should see her friend and people of the hiking club, did not get her on the phone but that feels good, she must be busy.
>
> only want to remind her of the meal she has and how to warm it up..
> also want to hear her really..
> it is sad to see her so small and more insecure, would be nice to see her socializing again some day at the nursing home, but maybe that will remain just a hopeful dream, the future will tell..
> Larry,, how is your brother-in-law, and you and the rest of your family?
> sorry if this question might be posted after you spoke about it maybe..
> M
Margare I don’t have easy access to a computer, so can’t write much. They got his heart started 15 min after it stopped. His higher brain centers died from no oxygen. ie. most of his brain is dead. Brainstem is alive and keeping breathing heart and kidneys going, unfortunately. Pneumonia has set in. Lungs filling with fluid. Loud gurgling reflexive struggle to breathe. Intolerably distressful to witness. His wife (my incredibly grounded sister) is at his side all afternoon, all evening and all night. Their two adult married children spell her off in the morning. They and family and friends visit and give support thru the day.
We hope the end comes soon. No one should have to see this, especially not his wife and kids. It is tortuous to see him in that state.
I need to cry but too overwhelmed and no safe place. My sister’s and the kids love and devotion to him touch me. For them to witness this unexpected and tortuous end of their husband and father is too cruel. I can only bear to visit a few hours at a time. I hope it helps. Glad a lot of other people are dropping by. I would have neen scarred if Noreen’s end was this horrible.
> just called my mom and despite she did not remember having been here yesterday, and misses her car, she sounded quite ‘up’. she said she does not mind not remembering, as long as she enjoys the moment..
> she really is a survivor, I admire her for that.
> nice to hear her stronger again!
> my brother said we will do our best to do nice things for and with her, and I fully agree..
> M
> Phil, all of us, except Patrick who does not want to or maybe cannot understand, know what you refer to with what you said about feelings being triggered.
>
> I hope nobody holds back on writing stuff like this, we all know the difference between simple empathy and the feeling stuff in our subconscious is being triggered, emotions that need to be looked at or simply want to come up.
>
> if someone wants to know more details we are all able to ask, I am so sick and tired of this repeated nonsensic attacks on anything that smells ‘primal’.
> childish and tiresome are two words that come to mind..
> M
Margaret,
Maybe Patrick jumps to the wrong conclusions based on his own experiences.
I’m not aware of people having a problem with a crying fetish. It’s always been helpful
for me and important for my therapy process, and I have spent countless hours with it.
The progress has usually been slow however, and I always assumed that was because of me and the nature of my traumas and not due to a fault in the therapy or theory.
Over time I have found that assumption to be right.
It would have been better to have expressed all of the crying, anger, need etc. when I was a child and going through so much. It wasn’t possible for me then as it was all too much.
But this therapy is the next best thing. I really don’t know where I would be with out it.
I maybe wouldn’t have made it at all.
Phil
I’m now torn between laughing at Jack’s post and being mortified by Larry’s horrid post. I think I will just have to call it a night, instead. Thank you for indulging me with your attention earlier, bloggers..
Ordinary gurus may be disproportionately overweight and poor, but not THE Ultimate Superstar Guru such as myself. No way, Jack. I guarantee you I have much better living arrangements than yourself. My house is too big, in fact. But, more to the point, you completely missed the jovial spirit of the love letter conversation yesterday. I asked that question rhetorically for FUN; you took it way too literally.
When I truly feel in the mood to ask gay men in their 80’s how to best receive love letters from women, you will be the first person I think of!
Addendum with quote:- “I’m now torn between……….. ” You don’t have be be torn … you can be both … being mortified AND have fun and laugh. I am quite sure that Larry is aware that his story is “mortifying” and equally knows most of us support him, as he expresses himself on the blog. Meantime, you and I are at liberty to have our fun BUT … you asked the question “Where did I go wrong” and I thought, in all fun, to answer the question.
Big house or no big house does not denote the quality of life. For me, the greatest factor in the ‘quality of life’ arises out of a loving and caring relationship. Maybe that is not the case with everyone. I assume, maybe wrongly, that you don’t have a romantic relationship, and for all your rhetorical questioning there seemed a deeper significance for you in all this. Again I could be wrong … but I have no desire to anal-ize (Patrick’s word) you. I find you a hard ‘nut to crack’. You seem, as I and my siblings did when we were young; to make a joke out of everything. It was a good defense on mine and my siblings part.
Meantime, I personally, don’t see any deep feelings being expressed by you. But then that could be just me. Other might well. Last point; getting love letters is not dependent upon being either gay or straight. Both are capable of deep satisfying and loving romantic relationships … lest that you were not aware of it.
Jack: You are mistaken on many counts here, and I’m sure Janov was also chanting in agreement with you that “big house or no big house does not denote quality of life” as he moved out to the Malibu beaches? Why implore Janov to move to a one-bedroom apartment in Compton and see how far it gets you?
You have proven yourself by past deeds to be a completely untrustworthy individual, and you are the last person I would want to share anything about my life with,
If I want to receive love letters from elderly gay men I promise to look you up!
I will always be your Ultimate Superstar Guru, though, haha!
Another quote:- “and you are the last person I would want to share anything about my life with.”
Not only are you then depriving yourself of wanting to share any of your life with me, but also every one else on the blog. Seems like you’ve trapped yourself into your own cocoon.
Again: I could well be wrong, but I did consider that this Primal Therapy blog was about us all sharing our feelings of ourselves with everyone. However, I am sure you will leave me corrected.
I will take your questions one at a time. I never stated that the blog was “only banter” What I did say was that:- “I loved the banter” being my characterization of what, for the most part, was taking place between Patrick and I. I contend, as I feel, most other do that expressing ones feeling on the blog is definitely therapeutic, and certainly is for me. If you are convinced that I am changing the “rules”, that is your choice.
I have absolutely no problem with you putting me on the bottom of your list. BUT I see some contradiction in this statement, since you and I have spent most of the back and forth today (banter if you like) with one another. So much, as I see it, for being at the bottom of your list. Granted that you stated “contact individually”
Quote:- “Aside from the times I write directly to you, your presence makes no difference” Maybe I have it all wrong, but I see this blog as interacting with one another. Of course, if you are responding to someone else, I would certainly hope that my presence here makes no difference to you what-so-ever.
I do feel that it irks you somewhat that I characterize you (and Patrick also) as being ‘crooked thinkers’ … in the Thouless sense of “crooked thinking”. If you were genuinely curious, I would have thought you might have read his book. It’s on the internet to read for free. I gather neither you nor Patrick have read it?
I never thought of our discussion ( banter) as being insane, but if you did I wonder why you continued for almost the whole day. I, as I feel most reading both of us, sort of sensed that I was enjoying it … which I was. However, since I now gather you want to cease … that’s fine with me. Ta Ta 🙂
I am not trying to be a pain-in-the-ass about this but it feels to me this article ts too important not to put out there wherever I can. I have sent it to all my family etc. The situation in the world is getting dire when the ocean gives up babies and not fish things are serious. To me every single paragraph of this is worth reading and deep thinking about
I read the whole link as carefully as I could and agree with the essence of it in-so-far as it sissincly states what is wrong with the current state of affairs. From my readings and knowledge ever since Karl Marks and before, there have been many thinkers that are equally aware of the ‘folly’ of our civilization. In the same vein I saw a program over the weekend by a professor of economics from Massachusetts University; Richard D. Wolff, giving a similar talk on the misguided notions of our capitalist system. I would have liked to have contacted him and given my view on his talk. He did at the end of his lecture to those present have and question and answer section. I did not find a way to contact him.
What I personally find fault with all economics and economist is … not that they don’t see the problem … but that they do not offer a solution OUTSIDE of capitalism. They still maintain, as did the earlier communist revolutions, to maintain capitalism al-be-it socialist capitalism. Richard D. Wolff did the same
Then to add to my own frustrations, I saw another program about Queen Elizabeth and her pending longest reigning monarch. It added at the end that she was mightily rich, also along with a large stipend from the British tax payers. I wonder at my own reasons for watching the whole ‘parade’. I find it so sick, and that most of the British and commonwealth members, support this whole ‘fairy tale’.
To and for me, the solution is so simple … yet the implementation of that solution, quite complex, I grant. Abolish money and all means of exchange and “voila” it all falls into place and then there ceases the need for law, governments, monarchs, police to enforce law, militaries to force our will on others, prisons for those not doing it our way, and on and on.
It’s tantamount to the very same mind-set (or lack thereof) with current policing and killings. Abolish guns and the munitions to make those guns killer machines. Alas we neurotic humans are blind to these simple solutions. However it would take some energy, debate and rethinking to implement either or both. We’d rather stay with complex reshuffling of the ‘decks of the Titanic’.
Hi JAck
What makes you think that by abolishing ‘money’, it will fix all ills of the world and the world’s economies?
Pardon me if you’ve explained yourself before.
Tom
Tom: I think you and I have been through this before. It would take more space to fully answer your question than I feel would be either allowable, expedient or desirable to go into it.
Just let me say that I got into this way of thinking by attending a series of lectures at Regents Crescent in London (near Regents park) way back in my twenties. The lecturers were talking about “Democracy” and our concepts of it. They demonstrated that is was a misnomer. They were anarchist, not in the sense of being rowdy protesters wanting to burn and loot, but wanting to promote the discussion, hopefully to the point:- as stated by Karl Marx that “capitalism” would inevitably fail. They also stated that Communism as practiced in Russia and it’s satellites, would also fail, since as they saw it did not displace (replace) Capitalism but merely created “Socialist Capitalism”
Marx from my reading of him did talk about the “withering of the state” Something that never occurred in any communist country. What did happened, is what in actually happened after the French Revolution the monarch was REPLACED by yet another sort of monarch (Robespierre). and so the merry goes on and on. What is required is a “conceptual leap”…”thinking outside the box”…”a whole other way of thinking”… or to use my phrase “a whole other way of being”.
It’s conceptual in essence, which I feel most are not willing to contemplate. Hence, neither I nor anyone else can state what will actually take place, since there will be seven billion of us deciding for ourselves, what we would want to do, to go and when. The only analogy I can think of is similar to someone attempting to figure out where the pedestrians of any given community will go; at what time and what speed and in what direction … yet, for the most part we do not bump into one another.
> Larry,
> that sounds so very painful for everyone concerned.
> my thoughts are with you and with your family..
>
> Jack, it occurred to me it might be Guru’s specific ‘nickname’ that triggers you, maybe you’d like to be the guru yourself? otherwise why does Otto’s many names don’t seem to bother you?
> just a passing thought..
> M
Margaret: I wrote a respons (August 09,2015 @ 8:29 am) to guru’s suggestion that I have something going on about him:- “I totally accept that there is something going on with me about someone doing Primal therapy (which if have it right) is about self revelations of the unconscious parts of oneself …………………….but yours (pseudonym) strikes me as being very conceited, and I feel strongly that you actually believe you have “tomes of wisdom”
I am not sure if you will be able to re-read it, or remember reading it.
Since I stated to you why I respond to Patrick the way I do, I feel a similar desire to respond to Guru; though I am aware that you often ask where he is when the blog goes quiet for a while. If by triggering you mean I have the desire to respond; I agree … but that does not mean I am angry with his or his pseudonym, and “NO”. being a Guru is not my quest in life. But I do see him using it as a means of hiding a part of himself. Hence my desire to poke. I find him almost as conceited and arrogant as I am, BUT lacking in “Straight Thinking” Just my own feeling.
I was not aware that Otto did use various “nick names”
Rod died early this morning. My sister was asleep in a recliner beside him in his hospital room. A nurse woke my sister to let her know Rod had passed. My sister told us that overnight Rod’s struggle to breathe was less intense than the day before.
I feel good how much support some of my siblings and their spouses were to my sister and her family through the ordeal. I’ve been distressed by Rod’s condition and the family’s suffering, but unable to have a cry. I’m glad I was here though and had some visits with them in hospital, and hope I was of some support, but honestly feel it was they who gave me strength.
Larry
Tomorrow I drive back home. Maybe there the events of the past few days will sink in. When the date is set I’ll return for the funeral.
> dear Larry,
> so sorry. it is so sad. it triggers me to think of your poor sister waking up with that kind of news..
> good to hear your family sticks together, I notice how much my own family suddenly starts meaning in tough situations, it is priceless to have them around for support..
> M
Actually, I hadn’t intended to write here about the tragedy in my family. I posted because of your interest and concern Margaret. Then I found that writing to everyone and receiving everyone’s response was touching me, keeping me in the feeling zone, helping me cope. I otherwise find myself distancing myself, shutting down, isolating from the harsh reality that hit my family the past week. But I want deal with it, not numb it away. Thanks everyone for caring.
Mid last week the neurologist determined that except for his brainstem, Rod’s brain was dead from receiving no oxygen during the more than 15 minutes before his heart was revived following his heart attack.
Grasping the full gravity that he was not in a coma but was in a brain dead vegetative state from which there was no coming back, the family hoped and wished for a quick and peaceful end to his life, and requested that all measures that were artificially keeping his body alive be stopped. Ironically his heart now beat strongly and vigorously in trying to keep his body supplied with oxygen, while his breathing became more and more laboured as his lungs filled with fluid due to pneumonia that had set in. The family made it clear to the medical staff that it was Rod’s wish, and it was the family’s wish, that in a hopeless situation such as this to bring his life to a quick and peaceful end. Unfortunately doctors and nurses cannot legally assist a patient to a dignified death. In the merciless avoidance of a prolonged tortuous death, our pets get better treatment than our loved ones.
It was stomach churning unbearable to be in Rod’s hospital room and witness his body’s struggle to breathe, the brain stem doing it’s job reflexively, autonomically to keep the body alive, for hours on end to hear the ever louder gurgle and rattle with every breath as his lungs filled with fluid, to see his now reflexively open lifeless eyes vacantly staring straight ahead at nothing as if he was totally concentrated on the excruciating effort to breathe and stay alive, his abdomen and chest roiling and heaving in violent spasms to bring oxygen to the blood to circulate through the body. I made myself visit in the hospital to support my family, but I wanted to run away, finding the situation agonizing, wanting to end his suffering, telling myself he wasn’t conscious and wasn’t feeling or suffering but feeling that he might be, wanting to end their suffering.
It felt disrespectful to him to let Rod go through this grotesque end of life. It felt excruciatingly cruel that his loved ones had to experience it and have this memory of it. Taking turns they made sure at least one of them was at his side at all times, while visitors came to lend the family support and went. The family made sure that the medical staff were as attentive to his care and comfort as was possible. The family wished for another, final heart attack to bring him peace. The family wished for a compassionate doctor to surreptitiously administer a lethal overdose.
Rod’s passing was met with relief that the suffering was over for him and his family, followed by a profound sense of loss.
I feel concern for my sister. I wish she didn’t have to go through the painful adjustment ahead to life without him. The past 10 days have been a shock to her and her 2 adult children. I will try to stay in touch with her more than usual in the hope I can be of some help.
Today I arrived back at home and finally cried some. Life hit us a very cruel blow. I need my Mommy and Daddy. If they had loved me I’d have more strength to face life’s calamities such as this. But Life’s first real cruel blow is that they didn’t.
Rod suffered from high blood pressure. You could sense it spiking in him when he got into an argument with someone as he was prone to do. The readiness, the intensity, the tenacity of his arguing seemed unreasonable. To me it felt like he was arguing with his parents. He was a cynical guy. He had an older sister, who completely dissociated herself from the family. The pieces of the puzzle known to me make me suspect Rod’s family was an intense unhappy one. I feel that Rod’s primal pain contributed to his high blood pressure, as did his diet. He craved Oreo cookies, ice-cream, candies and potato chips, snacking on them in the evening before bed time. My years of reading health newsletters tells me that excessive sugars and trans fats in the diet increase the risk of atherosclerosis and high blood pressure.
I’m glad I have this therapy to help me be less and less a captive of primal pain and of unhealthy food cravings. I’m glad I have this therapy and you on this blog to help me work through Life’s ups and downs in a healthy way.
Larry: Such a telling and sad story. It is so telling in that these type of circumstances are always prone for us all. BUT as you say you didn’t have a mommy and daddy, but finally did get this therapy that I and, I am sure all us, feel was a great gift considering such, as in your case especially, a terrible beginning.
It is posts like your that keeps this blog so alive.
I wish you as I know all others do, the very best for your upcoming retirement. Take great care Larry.
Larry – I want to send you my condolences I was not ‘ignoring’ your situation there I just went off the blog for 3 days. I do that sometimes as I need to…………………
Vicki: I don’t know if you’ll catch my post here, but you and I talked about the author Neil Gaiman and it appeared to me you enjoyed his books. Humble Bundle is running a big sale of his books for the next two weeks; you can pick up a collection of 17+ of his books for around $20. https://www.humblebundle.com/books
Hi USG
I can’t keep it in. I want to brag here.
My son, Jordan, has toured Neil Gaiman in Australia, USA and England.
I am so proud of my son.
………………………………
………………………………….
It just hit me. There is an old feeling for me here. My son made it. My little baby son, my precious baby, made it. All the struggle I went through, including this agonising therapy was worth it. My Jordan is OK.
………………………………………..
But I am hurting again. I haven’t made it. I am still struggling to make it.
I had chest pains for 3 weeks and then Monday they were noticeable enough that I went to ER. They kept me in the hospital for 2 days. They had me do a treadmill and found no blockage but high blood sugar. The chest pains went away after 2 days of taking insulin and greatly lessened eating and salt intake.. I like being in the hospital with someone to take care of me, nurses, especially women nurses, but even the male nurses who showed me how to use the tv and gave me headphones. Not that there was a damn thing on TV to watch. But it was interesting to hear the other patients talk. I was in the Medical Observation Unit at Cedars, and that means the walls are basically drapes. Old men asking the young nurse everything about her life; where she came from; where her husband came from. I could never do that, I was just the quiet schlub half-autistic patient hidden behind the curtains, wires to the left of me, tossing and turning at night trying to get comfortable enough to sleep. I got discharged before I could get the matzo ball soup and brisket dinner, oh well. That was my vacation for the year. I guess Z and I got a little closer during this episode. Now I am back to stressful life, eating like a horse, but no cheetos, which allowed me to stand going to work without flipping out. I won’t go back to work till next week, that is the big stressor, and I am not sure why. Impossible work load? Boredom? Changed work location? Worked since age 13 and that’s enough? Even if I make money, it is never enough. I had been using food to deal with stress, now what? Meditation—are you kidding me? Yes that is the kind of person I am, I think I know it all. I have certainly had my share of stress last year and this one: temporary layoffs (good times). Well not it was not temporary for Z. Dying dog and associated vet bills. I go see endocrinologist tomorrow to get insulin or what. I don’t know the downside of insulin. Oh. Weight gain. ouch
Hi Otto. Glad you are getting good help with high sugar problem.
My mom took the insulin injections for several years. It improved her health and she lived to a ripe old age. When your sugar is high the body is starving, which is stressful in itself.
Hope you start to feel better and the stress lessens with good health. Take care.
S
Saw that too. He had a good friendship with the little boy. He was good in “Broken Flowers” too where he goes on a journey to find a woman who has written him an unsigned letter that he has a 20 yr. old son–but he doesn’t know which woman of his past she is.
There was a big photo of the little Syrian boy in the Irish newspaper (here they seem a lot more ‘prudish’ about things like that) and looking at if for quite a while I ask myself why is it so powerful and even so ‘beautiful’ in a way………………
To see him lying there and so ‘well dressed’ in a way, his socks and shoes, his short pants and his shirt, it is clear SOMEONE cares for him and cares a lot. Probably his mommy and even if she is ‘gone’ too other people extended family uncles and aunts maybe. Someone who is not far away and someone who cared for him VERY RECENTLY. The way he is lying there looks sort of content just softly laying there no struggle to live very like a baby happy at home in his crib. A beautiful and cared for and loved little baby/boy……………….and yet even he so early and soon has to reckon with great evil and danger in the world, not only reckon with it but succumb to it…………….but what touches people and moves people me included is the care and innocence and love he was given and felt is so close and yet now so far away…………………..
I’m touched and for some reason surprised by all of your condolences to me regarding the death of my brother-in-law. I appreciate your warm thoughts, thank you, but I have to tell you I feel guilty about receiving them, because I’m not suffering much. I know that with his death there’s been a reality paradigm shift in me, but I’ve been unable to complete the shift and feel and cry what it means.
Since being back home on Tuesday, I’ve been worn down by a mild cold. Then on top of it today I put in a 12 3/4 hour work day, swathing the last of our field research plots. What his death means to me, buttressed by your condolences, has been knocking on the door of my consciousness, but as yet I’ve been too tired to completely open and let it in.
With his unexpected death, I feel that reality has penetrated shadowy recesses of my mind and there cast a light on blinking startled knowing that life isn’t guaranteed and can be taken at any untimely stage, as was his, and as was that little Syrian boy’s on the beach. I feel keenly appreciative and lucky that I get to still be here and maybe have a few more decades, and feel sad that they don’t. It’s unfair and almost inconceivable that their time is over forever. Despite all its flaws and problems, I feel more acutely fortunate for my life and the chance to make it better, ephemeral though it is.
On Sunday, I fly in for Rod’s funeral on Monday. On Tuesday I fly back home.
Larry: I feel strongly that there is little need for your to feel guilty about any of this, and yes it is a revelation to all of us that death could come at any given moment. As you say; it sure is ephemeral.
It sure does feal unfair many times, but as I see it, life is just a journey … it begins has a middle and then an end. The saddest thing is that our beinnings could have been so much better … had our caretakes had a better beginning themslves and on and on backwards. Like you and most of us on this blog, we were lucky enough to learn about this therapy through what I consider a very brilliant discovery and then for it to be made available to those of us lucky (yeah pure luck) to be able to get here and get it, and for this blog that keeps us all in touch.
Take great care Larry. I wish you and everyone else, best wishes; and for you especially in this moment.
Thanks Jack. Tomorrow I fly in for the memorial service. All today I’ve been dragging my butt getting ready for travel. I go with a heavy soul, and it’s not just that I’m sad about my brother-in-law’s untimely death.
I think what is also bothering me is just how real it is that the end really does come, and the little child never ever does get what he/she needed, how there are no happy endings where everything is made up for what was lacking at the beginning.
As I get ready for traveling tomorrow, not far below the surface I have a powerful need to be hugged and comforted and reassured about life and who I am, for my internal life to finally be put right and on course to correct for the mistake of my parents not being able to love me.
I’ve been waiting all my life for those arms and the love to surround me and banish the fear and aloneness in me. At my last breath will I still be fearful and alone, still waiting for my parents to finally see me and love me!
You have been though more than most that I know of, BUT for the most part I see you as being one of very very few that was able to express it and connect it. Sure that’s not good enough, but you have shown great strength and courage to face your stuff, especially since for an all too breif a moment you did get someone … very very profound.
If you don’t let up on it all, I feel very confident that something will turn up for you. I have no idea what, but as the saying goes keep on trucking even though it will often feel you are dragging that fucking boulder up hill, little knowing what it will be like when you get it to the top.
Don’t know if you remember, but I suggested some time ago that when you retire that you might want to settle here in LA. Of course, it may be not that easy, but if you did I feel you would be nearer to some that would give you that big hug that you crave. We all need those hugs.
Meantime Larry keep on trucking and taking great care of yourself.
Jack – this is not some kind of tit-for-tat in terms of ‘quoting back’ which generally I really don’t like but I am curious about what you say here
“BUT for the most part I see you as being one of very very few that was able to express it and connect it.”
Do you really mean that? If so why do you think that might be the case? Are you one of the ‘very very few’ I presume you think so. Do you think so? If your statement is true why then do you try to sniff/snuff out any hint of ‘heresy’ or to my way of thinking/feeling possible ‘reform’ or ‘improvements’ on the theory and practice?
About a week ago Guru put on this link about Steve Jobs again and I was struck by the kind of ‘open’ discussions they had about Zen, meditation etc etc.And how ‘healthy’ that seemed and quite a contrast to primal where any kind of ‘thinking’ or ‘speculating’ about the theory and practice of it is quickly and reflexively shut down. Called a ‘head trip’ or whatever. This I suppose would all be fine if Janov REALLY had the ‘goods’ on all of this…………………but what if he doesn’t?. As brilliant as he is he seems to have made mistakes and maybe not just in the ‘practice’ but the ‘theory’ itself may be a quite a bit ‘off’
I can imagine all of this itself will be called another ‘head trip’ but if so and if everything is so hunky-dory then WHY do ‘very very few’ actually ‘suceed’. Are all the rest ‘failures’ then in which case I suppose I don’t need to feel that bad…………..it turns out I am in the ‘majority’ if your statement is to be believed?.
.Quote:- “…..in terms of ‘quoting back’ which generally I really don’t like …..” Why????
Then another:- “BUT for the most part I see you as being one of very very few that was able to express it and connect it” Perfect example of crooked thinking again:- I was not referring to myself, but to few … very few others who’s lives were so, so devastated in their childhoods I wonder at their ability to be still alive AFTER SO MUCH NEGLECT. Mine was no where near THAT bad.
You don’t even seem to grasp the nature of “head tripping”. A total head tripper by MY way of reckoning is Stephen W. Hawking. So much was he into his head that the rest of his body fell apart.
I did not say ‘so very few suceded’. (crooked thinking again) My feeling is quite the reverse, as I feel most on this blog can attest to You’re off all over the lot. Stick to one point at a time, and … stop slinking around the Institute. Doesn’t bode well for you.
If you think that Zen Meditation is so great then pursue that path. You obviously think it’s a healthy pursuit. Go for it.
> Larry,
> I think it is true that when being too tired, or when still having to keep functioning, feelings tend to be put on hold, a kind of safety measure to be able to cope at that particular time..
>
> you might start to feel more of the pain when going to the funeral, and afterwards..
>
> I notice it for myself, in any case..
>
> yesterday had a scary time when was unable to reach mom, after she also did not open the door for man with hearing aids..
> he called me and said he’d come back next week, and I thought she might be out for a walk, but when i could not get her on the phone during the next few hours my worry started rising..
>
> options started occurring to me, calling her doctor, calling her boyfriend, but I postponed it still for a while while keeping trying myself to call her, until finally she did pick up the phone.
>
> briefly it was a relief, but it soon changed in another kind of worry and frustration as she kept saying she could not hear who I was, could hear a sound but no understandable words, apologized for it, and finally she worked out it was me on the phone, when I exclained ‘yes!’ when she did mention my name among others…
>
> we were not able to get a normal conversation, but luckily she did take the initiative herself to say she had been sleeping all afternoon, and was about to have dinner and watch tv and that she was ok and I needn’t worry…
>
> she did hear my ‘ok!’, but still it was worrysome and frustrating like what if this option, to call her was out of order as well??
>
> I called her boyfriend early this morning, and he told me he had repeatedly tried to reach her on the phone as e
> well yesterday evening without being able to get hold of her, and had also had times when she could not hear what he said on the phone.
>
> he said it might be best to wait and see if the hearing aid would help…
>
> I asked him to check the phones loudspeaker when he would go by
> see m
> y mom that afternoon, and tomorrow he will go out with her all afternoon to an exhibition and a hike so that is nice.
>
> it is a reassurance the nurses come by every morning as to check the situation as well as giving the medication…
>
> this morning I got a reply mail from my brother, who I had called amd mailed yesterday evening, and he wrote he had got hold of mom on the phone yesterday evening and then she was fine…
> so it seems it are momentary timespans, maybe shortly after waking up
> , where she hardly hears a thing, not the phone ringing, and not what is being said on the phone if she hears it…
>
> it was making me feel a bit better reading that she improved again, and now I follow he
> is advice to take some time for myself as otherwise it gets too much…
>
> he will take time off once more to go there when the hearing aid man arrives next wednesday..
>
> all of this is hard for us but must be even harder for our mom, imagine being called and then not hearing who it is or what they say, it is such an isolation, must be so frightening…
> but she s
> did not seem too distressed, actually apologized and also apologia
> zed for not hearing the hearing aid man, and said we should not be angry at her as she could not help it…
>
> of course I tried to convey it to her I was not angry at all, think she heard that bit or at least the sound of what I meant..
>
> writing about it makes me feel some of the stress again, and the pain and sadness, fear and feeling of powerlessness about it..
>
> have to let it be for now, let the nurse and her boyfriend take over a bit today..
>
> M
> it suddenly struck me how much it frightens me to face the idea of losing my mom..
> I need her, I need her to be there, I need her to be there for me to turn to, can’t fully imagine losing her, even just a little as is happening now is hard to bear..
> there is the feeling of wanting to protect her, but underneath there is the terrible abyss of what about me???
>
> last night dreamed about struggling, being on the verge of a deep trench, that was crumbling away..
> I was scared, cautiously moving to try to find some grip to move backwards towards safer ground, find my balance to move away from the threatening danger, then looking down and being gripped by panic as the pit was so much deeper than what I had imagined it to be..
> deadly fear started to overwhelm me and then I woke up…
> M
Margaret: That sounded to me, like a great insight as to what your mother means to you. Even the dream seems to be holding something for you also. Hope you are able to connect to it. It also seems so close.
> just gave my mom a call.
> now more aware of doing so for myself more so than for her.
>
> but it was nice to be able to cheer her up, as she woke up kind of dazed, not knowing whether it was morning or evening, sounding downish, but talking with her and repeating she would go out with her boyfriend the next day, reminding her of the time of the day, that it was time to have dinner, that she could watch the evening news soon, made her become more alert and more up.
> she asked about the cats and it felt good to have called her and to have made her feel ‘in touch’ and not on her own in a world that must be becoming stranger and more out of control for her..
> as Larry, I feel aware of keeping some feelings at bay for the moment, but feel sure they will come in due time, even if it needs to be during my sleep..
>
> sadness mainly I think, mixed in with fear..
> M
> yes, Jack, it seems to be right under the surface all the time.
>
> just now dropping a garbage bag freaked me out, suddenly brought me in touch, partially, with some tremendous rage, or frustration, as there seems to be nooone in particular to aim it at, exept maybe myself, feeling so bad about myself, worthless, like some loser, not deserving anything, it all being my fault, and then something like’ see me! ME ME ME! I am here!! what about me!??’….
>
> a feeling of not counting, not mattering, but not capable of fully feeling all of it right now, too tired, too down, or scared, or whatever…
>
> i feel a weird mixture of selfconfidence and the complete opposite, worthlessness…
> M
Margaret: Wow!!! it all seems right there … ready to come to the surface. Sure, scary as all hell. Easy for me to tell you, but best you can: “let it happen”.
Larry, I finally got caught up with all of your sad news last night, then tried to comment, but in the middle, I think because of the heat wave here in L.A., my computer crashed — blue-screened out! I’m not turning it on much in this heat, with no A/C. Anyway, I’m sorry, and hope your trip goes as well as it possibly can, maybe to strengthen some connections, even though some others have been torn away.
I am concerned for my own brother (not the one many of you know), who had another stroke this week. He’s been taking his meds & watching his diet well, but he started throwing up, which happened the first stroke (several months ago). Scans showed a blockage from a clot in a small blood vessel in his brain. So they switched him to a stronger blood thinner, changed his diet a bit more, and urged more exercise — hopefully he’ll get more phys. therapy, because altho he works on exercising every day, since his balance is still bad, he can’t yet walk by himself, for fear of falling. Early after the first stroke, he did fall once, and not being able to brace with his arms, he landed on his nose and broke it (blood all over). Luckily it healed ok, and now his arms go out to brace, but still, he’s scared.
He’s the kind of guy who was used to being able to do whatever he wanted, physically. He was a plumber, dug ditches & poured cement, did all the work on his cars. So it is tough for him to be in a wheelchair, struggling just to stand and wash dishes. He measures his progress now literally in steps. From one step at a time, now he usually takes two steps, and can sometimes take three or four. He has knee pads, so he can crawl down the front brick steps (which he built), then pull his wheelchair down after him, lock it, and get himself up and into it. He can transfer himself from the wheelchair to the car, or a chair. He can bathe himself, and yesterday washed his own hair. Success on a different level.
Vicki: Sorry to hear this about your brother. When my brother (the one that just died) had a stroke leaving him speachless I too went into this feeling of “am I the next?”
I wish both your brother, you, and your other brother that we all knew; the very best under the circumstances.
Vicki – that is discouraging news when your brother is trying so hard now. Hope he can keep working on what he wants to do.
Hard for you as his big sister too…
Take good care Vicki.
ox L.
I thought your other brother was older than you Vicki. That must be a huge setback to him to be suddenly so physically limited. Sounds like he isn’t giving up though in trying to get his physical ability back. Sounds inspiring.
Thanks, Leslie, Larry, David & Miguel. Larry & Leslie, he is not giving up, but he is so tired of being wheelchair-bound. They acquired a treadmill somebody else threw away, and are setting it up for Greg to try using, it’s got good handles. He also borrowed my rake, and raked his entire front yard from his wheelchair. And he’s figured out he can weed it (not too many), and is planning how to re-seed it and get a few plants as well. He sees a doctor about getting more phys. therapy, on Monday.
> Vicky,
> it is sad to hear about all the hardships your brother has to deal with.
> but he does sound like a fighter, working hard to make the best of things.
> M
Thanks, Margaret and Jack. It surprised me, because my brother is younger than me, although by less than a year. But he has not given up, and still hopes to not only walk again, but his goal is to be able to “overhaul the engine on his truck”, which made me laugh, but that’s his dream.
The memorial service was on Monday. I’m home now, back to my regular life. It hurts that people important to me have died and a life that I cherished with them is eroded away and gone. I feel alone. I want my daddy to hug me.
The Prayer Cycle, Movement V, Grace
“Father won’t you carry me….”
Miguel: I saw a travel program on PBS tonight about Andalucia which finished up in Seville. I did once pass through the city and thought it was a very elegant, but this program showed me just what a magnificent city it is. I gather it is your city. I thought of you throughout the program.
> Tom, sounds like you did make it as a dad, and also and maybe even more so as a granddad, with plenty of joys to keep coming..
> all of course mixed in with a fair seasoning of old hurt to be processed, which is a real part of you.
> nice you are so proud of your son!
> M
Hi Everybody
It looks like you’ve all taken a vacation and deserted the primal blog. Interesting.
Any news about your brother, Vicki?
Any news about your Mum, Margaret?
How are you bearing up to the loss of your brother in law Larry?
Are you making tons of money USG?
And Jack. How is your Jim? Is he still putting up with you, the hero?
Otto. Is life getting any easier for you?
Sylvia, Sylvia. I am trying to place you. Forgive me, but my memory is going slowly.
Phil. What’s going on with you?
David. Do we know each other? I have been trying to place you. it’s not like you to be so quiet. Why?
Now that we are through the preliminaries, I thought I bring up a subject not commonly discussed here. Or not that I know of.
Do any of you feel like dying?
You have done all you can do in this life time, and your life is not getting any better. No sunshine on the horizon? Having great difficulty accepting the fact that it will not ever, get any better? The struggle to survive isn’t worth it, any longer?
I am not talking about suicide. I am talking feeling despondent, having to give up hope, having to come to terms that that’s the way it was, IS, and likely will be, for a very long time to come.
Otherwise all is well. Family is good. Friends, I see them regularly.
But I can’t make it. The struggle seems to be worth less and less to make it. And by ‘making it’, I mean living.
It is beyond feeling hopeless. There is nothing, but nothing in front of me. struggle as I do to feel better, only to slowly realise that there is NO BETTER.
I really don’t want to feel these feelings, as I am in them 24/7 already. Does it really mean that I have felt this shitty all my life, but would not concede to the utter hopelessness? Despair?
Somebody tell me that I am wrong and there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hah?
Lately, all I want to do is sleep. Find life overwhelming. Although I think at times of doing something with my life, I quickly dismiss it, as I already know that it will lead to nowhere, no pleasure, no satisfaction, no sense of accomplishment.
Is feeling my pain the only way to live? How do I give up? When that means dying.
Oh well. Either way, there isn’t far to go. After all I am past my sixty nine’s birthday.
And to think that I don’t even know what to ask for. What sort of help would help me. I suppose it’s like asking a baby, what do you want, when you are crying? Or even earlier. Need help to make it, but I don’t have the wherewithal how to.
Nice talking to you all. Wish you a good life. You, the primal warriors.
Tom
Tom: My Jimbo is still putting up with me … don’t ask me why, cos I don’t really know. As for the blog going quiet for a while, I don’t think there is any other reason than there seems nothing to talk about by anyone. I think this a characteristic of blogs and blogging from time to time.
Yes I am one of those that thinks periodically about dying especially now I’m getting way up there at 83. It’s not that I want to die, but it always a posibility and unpredictable. I personally am not worried about death, but I really hope that when it is about to happen it is quick and relatively painless. But then I think that is the way most would want it.
On the question of despair and depression: the way I discovered how to deal with it for, me was if I was unable to sink into that feeling that the despair or depression was bringing up, then I resorted to crying about my inabilty to get into it. That did not necessarily bring to the total old feeling, but it did give me respite into the despair and/or depression. Slowly over thime it would come to me.
I am not suggesting that is the way it should be for others … only to let the bloggers know that is my way. Seemingly it works for me.
Tom, Sometimes I feel really down, but not quite like wanting to die. My job is very boring and easy. Very little stimulation and satisfaction coming from that. I don’t see how to easily fix that. I do enjoy my free time for the most part, however. I often still feel blocked from fully enjoying positive feelings and connecting with people, but that’s improving little by little. The people around me, family and friends help keep me going. It’s not the answer, and I don’t know what is, but Tom does it help any that your family and friends love you and want you around ? ..for all your good qualities. Phil
Hi Tom. I know you cannot place me; fear not your memory because we have not met. I’ve not had formal therapy. I’ve sort of glommed onto this family like in the play, “The Man who came to Dinner”; in that he never leaves. I am not sure how to help with your dilemma . I think we are all impatient when it comes to this therapy or feelings.
I wonder at times if I will ever be through with the feeling that my mom did not like me the last 20 years of her life. That I felt inadequate and bought the idea I was less of a person.
It’s ironic that what sustained me In those feelings was that she was good to me growing up. So I guess I was just a convenient target for her pain in her old age. I try less and less to get to the hurt feelings, but they will come up a little every day and I acknowledge it and go on. Thanks for asking about all of us.
S
Hi Tom, As a matter of fact, yes, news about my brother who had a couple of strokes recently. This week, a doctor ordered more phys. therapy for him. They have a room down in the basement at Kaiser, they gave him a new walker, and he was able to do 4 laps with it, the therapist said that was really good, much better than he expected, and for sure, he believes my brother will walk again. He learned a new way of getting himself up from his wheelchair, leaning forward a bit more, and got several other new exercises to do on his own. He is also able to use the treadmill at home that they acquired when someone threw it out, and his therapist wants him to work up to 20 min. per day on it. My brother is clearly excited about all this.
He is also encouraged by a neighbor on our street, who finally started walking again, after being in a wheelchair for a year after a stroke. Will keep you all posted as things progress.
PS
Just to brighten my day, yesterday was Yom Kipur. In the Jewish religion, which I know you all closely follow, you go to the Synagogue. After all, it is the Day Of Atonement.
I didn’t go. I rarely go to the Synagogue. After all, I am secular. There is no God.
But I did think of going out to the cemetery and visit my mum’s, dad’s and grandma’s graves. I felt somehow drawn to go. But then I put a stop to me going out there.
Do I need to feel this incredible sense of loss, again? Do I have to walk from grave to grave, like a dog, looking for food? Soul food? Is this all I am going to get? The barren lids of the graves? No warmth? No reaching out to me? No holding me? No looking into my eyes?
Do I have to die feeling this incredibly deprived?
Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!! Reach out to me!!!!!!!!!!!!Hold me!!!!!!!!!!!!Look into my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Make me feel wanted………..OK? Give me some feelings of warmth, OK?
Who am I talking to?
And as I am writing to you, I feel drawn to going out to the cemetery. That’s all there is. there is no more.
Tom
Hey Tom,
Glad you wrote here. I think what you are doing right now sounds so good – being honest, reaching out, feeling what you can. I know a few people who are always ‘on the run’ – searching, placating, distracting. Guess its the hard core stuff you are addressing…
Hope you can enjoy what you can!
ox L.
> Tom,
> nice to hear from you, nice you ask us about our particular things, and sorry to hear you have to deal continuously with these sad feelings of unmet need.
> I relate to feeling like ‘I could as well die’, or even ‘I want to die’ occasionally..
>
> lately I feel a tendency to get depressed, there is so much hardship in my life, with the visual and hearing disability, which increases the feelings of isolaition and loneliness..
>
> and mum getting older and frailer but still stubborn does not help, although she is a tiny bit easier than before with the medication, and safely back in her house again now..
> I encourage her to go for tea in the cafetaria of the nursing home, which she does, as she has some old time acauaintaces there.
> I want her to get used to it, and to start regarding it as a nice place to be..
>
> today for the very first time I have a cleaning man in my own place, a Belgian from a Turkish background, who seems fairly ok, he does like cats, so that is important to start with..
>
> it feels difficult to let him do things his way in my bathrom and kitchen right now, after a cofee and a chat and showing him around..
> it demands trust to let someone fuss around and hopefully he does what I asked him and puts my stuff back in its exact spot so I can find my things again..
> it is a bit scary but also useful, I asked him to remove some small curtains so I can wash them, and right now going into the kitchen I noticed he is really giving the sinks and tubs there a thorgough clean with different products, so it is nice to get the place done thoroughly bit by bit.
> he only comes for two hours every two weeks, so we can do it in small bits, as I do my usual cleaning anyway, and have him to do the corners and hard to get to spots etc..
>
> will have to get used to him more, as it is really letting someone into your private space, much hmore than my household help and assistant who are always right by my side to do the shopping and stuff like that.
> now I hand over some rooms to him, a stranger, and let him clean it up, hopefully..
> it is not really that dirty at all, but it gets too much bit by bit to keep it as clean as I like it to be myself, with all the rest I want to do, like writing this comment..
>
> so well, let’s hope for the best, and specially that my cats don’t get out in
> to the stairway or don’t get in touch with toxic cleaning products..
>
> ha, it is hard for me to give that amount of control out of my hands so fast, I have done a cleaning job myself for a living at some former stages in my life, and you really get faced with very peersonal stuff of your clients automatically..
> I do take care to put things out of sight that I do not want him to run into..
> oh well, kind of a luxury problem, isn’t it, and actually it is nice to have someone over as well, even at 8 in the morning..
>
> to come back to your feelings Tom, I reflected on it a bit, as I also often feel down and depressed and scared and needy and what is the use, who long will I still be here and what is there to expect?
> what is the use of therapy??
> but then I still cannot deny the deeper level of consciousness and access to my feelings is worth it, is also worth paying the price i
> of being more sensitive to the present sore spots in my life…
>
> would not want to trade it for the partial automatic pilot I o
>
> once was, driven by my act outs…
>
> sigh, smiley..
> M
> I feel good about my housecleaning helper. he is calm, not fast but thorough and sees what needs to be done. and very important, he likes cats!
> feels good to have someone check out and clean the bits I ‘overlook’..
> just the right amount of help, the minimum, 2 times 2 hours a month, from 8 am till 10 am, so I am up even earlier and by ten a whole lot has been done already..
>
> seems to make me feel more at ease, to diminish my fear level somehow a little.
> strange how small things like that have that kind of impact.
> somehow a person you pay feels also more safe, it is a very straightforward relationship without the risk of losing when the person, like in a friendship, loses interest. that is a big one for me, deeply rooted in the distance my dad used to keep me at, sometimes giving me a little, then turning away or even making me feel something was wrong with me.
>
> always the feeling of not deserving a friendship lurks in the back of my mind, also making it hard to initiate new contacts..
>
> it used to be way much worse, but things like that can never be entirely reset I guess, only softened..
>
> plan to go dancing this weekend, has been almost a year by now since I went the last time!
> M
Hi
Nice to hear back from all of you, including you,Leslie. I feel bad that I haven’t addressed you in my posting above. Not that I don’t think of you and Barry.
I appreciate the feedback. But not quite sure what to do with it and all your good intentions.
I am a baby. I am distressed. I am sending signals out that I am not happy about something/s. But I am too young to formulate and ask for what I may need or want.
Oh well. I suppose that’s my passage through the Primal Labyrinth.
I am heading off shortly to visit my 92 year old girlfriend,my client, she is a doll.
Because off her, I got an award. A volunteer’s award.
It is amazing the many ways people can hurt me. Why give anything to me? I am just doing what anyone else would do, if encouraged by none other, than you know who, yes, Barry B.
There are times when I get resentful of giving, being there for others. Who knows, the time may come, when I will be cuddled and swaddled in a way to bring me peace finally.
I am not sure where am I going with all this. After all, all I have to do is ‘feel” the deprivation, right? And then all will be good.
But I tell myself……..Tom !!!!! Knuckle down and feel the “feeling”. Be a good boy. Do as you are told. Stop theorising. Stop waffling on. Just do it.
Do what? What should I ask for? What will finally give me surcease? Peace? What?
Why am I so stupid and stop fighting the “feeling”? Why? Why haven’t I learned after all these years how to be a ‘feeling man’?
It drives me crazy. I do not know where to go, who to go to, and what to ask for.
Somebody!!!!!!!!! Please help!!!!!!!!
Tom
Hi Jack
I am not offended.
It feels like both in the past and the present, that nobody is there, nobody was there.
Unbelievably enough, in it’s truest sense, there were and are people around me all the time.
And that’s what makes me feel crazy.
During and after my birth, my father, grandma and my nanny were around. But it doesn’t make up for a physical connection that my mum wasn’t able to provide me. Not then, not during my childhood, nor in my young adult life.
She did say to me a couple of months before she died, that she wishes she was more there for me. She wished she wouldn’t have listened to ‘others’. I interpreted her referring to my dad.
She was too young, straight after the war, to have me. She was only eighteen. A baby herself.
Tom
> Tom,
> maybe you do not have to search deeper for where the ‘real’ feeling lays, maybe your feeling then was something like ‘I cannot give up! something is bound to come my way, have to stick it out until then..’, I mean, in order to survive, at that age it simply seems the only way, I am not clear about this it is just something that struck me as a possibility, don’t search for the feeling, it is right there, you seem to be in it all the time, sadly enough some kind of endless torturous wait for something that never came..
> I hope you can focus on both things at the time, the good and the painful.
> you do sound glad when you talk about your old girlfriend!
>
> affectionately, M
> thanks Larry,
> your comment kind of shifted my view on going dancing (or not) from feeling bad about myself for being a coward if I wouldn’t to seeing it does indeed take some bravery to go.
> I hope i can, some kind of flu bug is trying to get hold of me seemingly..
>
> otherwise things are relatively ok, mum at home again, and kittens grow and flourish..
> Plukkie, the one that used to be the smallest and a bit sickly, has grown into a big strong young cat, and Pluche, the one who used to be the biggest, is now much smaller than his brother, and has a really soft silky fur and a very sweet character. his brother has a thick fur, and likes to playfight using his claws and teeth as much as can still be regarded as acceptable by me and by his brother, but Pluche is very ‘soft pawed and gentle.
> I adore them and am proud of them, smiley!
> M
BOARDING SCHOOL SURVIVOR
Ive been out picking blackberries, and noticed that I was having a dialogue going on in my head… the gist of which was – this is something familiar I used to do with my mum, but I’m re-creating my childhood, along with wandering about in green spaces, sometimes wanting a dog, a house with a large garden, all things that felt ok when I was little..what re-creations are right and which are wrong?
When my brain starts like this, I’ve come to realise that simply painful feelings are there,.
There was more in the dialogue, because I’m processing how to cope as an adult with the effects of being sent away to boarding school.
The first day was bewildering, can you imagine that you are taken away from all thats familiar, and Dumped in a strange mansion with masses of strangers?. There is a school trunk to unpack, with all the new clothes, and 52 hankies, and sheets etc – all displaying name tapes, jointly sewed on by my grandmother and mother, but I’m in shock and cannot feel anything.
I have to adjust quickly to survive, new sleeping and bathing arrangements (no privacy), mealtimes, lessons, all governed by bells ringing, and a stern matron, and stern spinster staff.
There is nothing and no-one in place to tell ANYTHING personal to, it is frowned upon to show any sadness, or hatred for the place, .. small wonder I went quiet – I had to. I didn’t see my parents for 13 weeks at a time. They were like strangers to see them again, I lost my trust, I learned to hide my feelings of NEVER wanting to go back to school, from them, because I was afraid Id lose their love (though -what love? as they’d sent me away, they didn’t want me)
Unpacking and then packing tainted “the hols”, and home was never the same any more..my parents were like strangers, and I went into puberty disconnected from them, and realised they didn’t know who I was at all. But now I realise that in my early home life that was true too..
I still don’t know what feels like home…Barry asked me a while ago..and all I could say was that I liked the feeling of coming back to my flat here after being away, and felt more “at home” at where I stay in LA, because he and Gretch are not far away, and some friends I grew up with thru regular therapy groups there.
I’m in a state where I don’t feel I have a home, and belonging has more meaning at retreats as its like boarding school, where I was forced to live 9 months out of twelve for seven years, and therefore school was the more “normal” familiarity. The only other scenario where I had some feeling of home was when I was married. I don’t have that any more. I join a tennis club, (familiar because I played tennis from very early, and my Mum played tennis for the county) but also because that also reflects what I was taught earlier..rules/team spirit, something to attach to…
Is this recreating and wrong?
I’m lonely, in spite of 30 tennis acquaintances. I worry I am incapable of really being close to anyone.
After DECADES, it still feels impossible to feel settled.
I’m aware that I want “people” (i.e. parents!) you… to understand me… more re-creating!
I want to integrate all the above to feel better about me, my life.
Well, Ive talked myself away from feeling, tho I know I’m in pain as I reflect and write.
Jo: I don’t feel you talked yourself out of the feeling. I felt you talked/wrote yourself right into it.
That such a sad story. It touched me Jo. That whole craziness of English boarding schools … schools are bad enough, but boarding schools … and at such a young and vulnerable age …Geezus.
I feel that all teachers at all schools should have some rudimentary understanding of Primal therapy or at least understand the complete cruelty of taking children out of what they are familiar with until such times as the child themselves, decide they want to go and learn something. Something that they the child wants to learn. Not someone else idea of what they should learn.
I hope it isn’t the case that you talked yourself away from a feeling, Jo, but more likely that you made the feeling more real for yourself by reflecting and writing about it.
I think recreating is unavoidable, and we can take advantage of it and learn as you are by recognizing it and sensing the pain that is driving it. Then we have the choice to recreate and bypass the pain, or stop the recreating and open to the pain. I don’t think there is a right or wrong about it, so much as a desire to open to the pain and heal when feeling ready.
I’m learning about you from what you wrote, and getting more insight into how the damage happened, and through your writing getting more of am inkling of how the damage happened in me and what I’m running from. Your writing helps. Thanks.
Jo, Being sent to boarding school seems like torture, hard for me to imagine.Going to public school, especially middle school was hard enough for me,but I went home in the afternoons, of course.I also think that recreating is unavoidable. Maybe it’s part of our natural processof trying to relive things internally so as to be done with them for good.I never would send my own kids away like that. Maybe, partly for my own selfishreasons of loving them and wanting them around. But they would never haveasked for such a thing, not even a summer camp.Was this an inevitable thing being sent away like that? Was there discussions aboutit or some possibility that you wouldn’t go? Phil
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:12:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
So good to hear from you Jo. Your account is so well written and painful to imagine. That early betrayal being so devastating and life altering.
Its such a sweet, innocent time in childhood to be sent away somewhere else just as your world would be taking shape.
I was wondering if you had siblings – and if so did any join you @ school?
Take care Jo – and hope you can continue to do what you enjoy and write here :).
ox L.
Larry, Phil, Leslie, your responses are painful to receive and mean alot. 😊
I’m glad what I wrote helps you Larry…
Phil, in England there exists an ancient tradition of sending children away. Based on an avoidence of more wealthy people to deal with the messy, noisy, demanding babies and children and hand it all over to others…nannies servants and then boarding schools, where the child is made into an ‘accomplished’ adult as quickly as possible.
At seven years old, in the early ’50’s, raising children was all about parents and teachers being directive, no discussion or choices, no argument from children. In my family (father subject to the same tradition) feelings were quashed, avoided, negated, warped and misshapen into punishment and control with disapproving facial expressions. These were the worst aspects.
Leslie, your gentleness makes me cry again ☺️ ..
Boarding schools in those days were same sex schools, so my older brother disappeared out of my life suddenly at 5 or 6, being sent away to his school. He did not fair well there. He’s been angry with me since I was born. He went into further institutional life -the army- and then the Australian army, having emigrated to Australia about 50 years ago. Not someone with whom I’m close to!
Hi Jo
I can’t imagine what it would be like to be separated from your parents and siblings at such a tender age.
It’s beyond belief.
And not seeing your parents for three months at a time. It’s brutal.
I see my son generally once a week, and it isn’t often enough. And he is 41 years old. When he travels, I fret day and night. Worry about him. Worry about his safety. I text message him. Tell him I am thinking of him and I miss him.
How incredibly painful.
Tom
Phil, yes, terrible…
The tradition is still there, big time, and in the 50’s there began to be the nouveau riche sending their children away for status. The government is full of people who went to elite boarding schools. I.e. It is still a nuisance for many many parents to have their children at home.
> Jo,
> it is such a sad story.
> I remember how, when I was only put in an institute for a few days already my world seemed to be all wrong all of a sudden. I was like partly on hold, the biggest part of me only waiting to be with my mom again, the rest just going through the motions in the world that turned ugly and wrong, full of strangers.
> I was shocked at reading about the 13 weeks you had to be there, it must have been so very devastating, and to have to go there again and again.
> you sound very hard on yourself.
> recreating what was good like picking blackberries seems fine, specially as you were able to detect the old feeling that was stirred. maybe we can enjoy most those few things that were good when we were young..
> did you manage to get some friends there that helped a little to endure the place?
> M
Margaret,
I only recall being in shock that first day, and probably was for a year.. One got to know others obviously, but friendships were fraught with competitiveness, cattiness, bullying etc, we all had to change ourselves rapidly to survive. Basically those first years were HORRIBLE. I had more ‘fun’ after age 12 ish.
Margaret, you make a good description of how it felt for you..though being on hold was the biggest part for me…I wasn’t allowed to feel the raw pain ever…not until therapy! It’s unbelievable!
How long were you in an institution, and why?
> Jo,
> for a period of weeks at the age of two, when my mom had to go to have an operation.
> I have no memories of that, apart from all the crying that pours out and the feelings of being lost and scared.
>
> then in the following years my mom worked at the intsitute she grew up in and occasionally had to sleep in there, and I was mostly put in a ‘club’, under the stern supervision of a bitter woman who referred to me literally as ‘the outsider’ for still having my mom coming by at some point.
>
> I remember sleeping on a big dorm, waking up after having wet my bed, not daring to go to where I knew my mom was.
> small consolation was at least with me they did not dare to put me in the middle of the playground with my wet sheet, or wet underpants, on top of my head, as they often did with other kids..
>
> suddenly feel like crying..
> sometimes I was in my mom’s group, had to call her ‘madame Jeannot’ then..
>
> I also remember not wanting to eat my soup at lunchtime, and they simply put the rest of my food in the soup, which I also refused to eat.
> don’t know if they served it again to me that evening, it seems possible.
>
> my mom would interfere if she found out stuff, and go to complain, but well, what can I say..
> my brother was put in another ‘club’, but soon had to go to another school for being a boy..
> so I got a little taste of institutional life, and the bitterness of the women working there , and I hate to imagine how it must have been for you.
> you must have had a strong real little flame of your own spirit inside of you to come out the person that you are with all your qualities after experiences like that.
> I hope you find lots of things to enjoy, picking blackberries sounds nice to me to start with..
> M
Margaret, you experienced some harsh conditions – I’m not surprised you felt lost and scared; and that especially unbearable feeling to wet the bed and all the shame that goes with that. (I know)
Thanks also for you good wishes for me.. I do have the capacity to enjoy things…though that all flies out the window when feelings get triggered!
Who can write this stuff? WOW!
(I’m blue ue ue ue ue ue ue blue be doo be doo be doo)
Gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong yeah
(I wanna tell a all you people
(I dropped a penny in the well wished that you would come back soon)
I couldn’t believe what I heard
(A fortune teller told me my love with you was through)
I hope her reading was wrong
(I hope she was wrong ’cause you been gone too long from home)
WHY THIS MAKES ME SAD? 1961, BIG IJPHEAVAL, ,MOVED FROM HOLLYWOOD TO LONG BEACH AND MY WORLD WAS DESTROYED. OF COURSE THIS SONG WAS PROBABLY PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND ON SOME RADIO, NOT SURE WHOSE, SEEING IMAGE OF MY YOUNG AUNT DRIVING. I ESCAPE FROM THIS FEELING BY TYPING THIS. DUMB ASS. SUPPOSED TO BE PAYING BILLS. TIRED OF PAYING BILLS.
A loss like that makes you walk around like doctor zhivago as he gets a heart attack and chokes up having tried to catch up with Lara his long-lost love. I walk around like that every minute. See the hotel in Hollywood, the fig tree in our yard, the long freeway ride to Long Beach, grey concrete. Lost my uncle my aunt my 3rd grade girlfriend and other friends. No more boyclub, hanging out, making stuff. No more walks with aunt elsie and Susie the Chihuahua. I am blue. What a heart attack.
Plus it mirrored the loss of mommy at age 1 ½, cementing my fate. If only someone could have told me earlier why I was such a cripple. But no one said much of anything. It was all a mystery.
> just reading a new book about our universe, really fascinating.
> for example when you make a round with your index finger and thumb, as big like say a dollar coin, and look through it to a seemingly black spot of the night sky, in that same area a good telescope can detect about a 100.000 galaxies, each containing billions of stars..
> possibly at about 10 billion lightyears away!
>
> our own galaxy is part of a large cluster of galaxies, the Virgo cluster, with distances that also go around 60 million lightyears, forgot whether to its center or something similar..
>
> fascinating, literally mindopening, those distances and all the rest!
>
> Otto, I am not quite clear about whether you refer to a recent event in your comments or whether you talk in a more general way about what you feel.
> did something happen recently?
> M
> another complication with my mom..
> now her landline is out of order, which took me a while to find out, at first we all were concerned as she did not answer the phone.
> I did hesitate but did not take a taxi to ride up there that evening, and waited until the nurse would come by there the next morning, as my mom is physically not too bad really, and sometimes simply does not hear the phone..
> the nurse let me know the phone said there was no line available, and the company had to come by.
> a long story short, they came but have to come again next week, still no landline.
> mom seems to have a problem now using her cellphone, does not pick it up and does not call with it either, for whatever reason..
>
> this morning I had her on the cellphone though, when the nurse was there, and told her she could come stay over at my place for a few days if she wanted, as her television also risks failing, same connection that is bad, and then the phone problem..
> she said no at first, and then she’d give it some thought…
>
> rationally I have al kind of ‘understanding’ reasons and explanations, but still it hurts she rather stays there, no phone, maybe no tv, than to come and stay just a few days with me and the cats..
>
> some mothers might be thrilled to have a few days together..
>
> feels lonely, bit rejected..
> M
> e the more time goes by, the more I feel myself becoming indignified about the ex director of the volkswagen group being rewarded by a 30 million Euro ‘dismission premium’ after cheating on an enormous scale, deceiving not only his clients, but the whole population by polluting the air etc.
>
> he should be in jail, and not on top of all the mountains of money he already made, receive a golden handshake of for f.. sake 30 millions!!!!
>
> it is obscene, a slap in the face and it seems to get so little attention.
>
> another matter of concern and indignation is subject of a documentary tomorrow, the levels of des-hormone and other hormonelike substances in the environment, still, despite numerous tests on animals proving their toxicity and desastrous impact on fertility and sexual development.
>
> money money money and power,politicians not daring to take a strong stand because of those precious votes and gifts of the wealthy..
> ha!
> M
Margaret, I feel the same way about the Volkswagen company. I want to hear about criminal prosecutionsfor those responsible, not just monetary penalties. I doubt I would consider buying a Volkswagen in the future.This is why we need very strong regulations to prevent destruction of the environmentand our health by greedy businessmen. I recently bought a used Toyota Prius which I’mvery happy with. I hope the electric motor and gas efficiency are real and not somescam designed by engineers to fool customers.Phil
Margaret: Yep! Money … it facilitates greed and the more we keep this system going, enmeshed in money, the longer we’ll continues with an ever growing divide between the haves and the have nots. The solution is so fucking simple … yet we are so fucking afraid to get our heads round the simplicy, life would be without it. Oh! yeah, I’m fully aware that most SPECULATE that without it, we’d be running around killing one another … little realizing that with it (money), that is exactly what we are doing, and will continue to do.
It takes, what I deem “a conceptual leap”, something few are prepared to do, to SPECULATE the very opposite of what currently exist. Just tweaking this supidity did not, nor ever will, resolve the matter, but as we see the progression of our civilization we just keep the “merry going round”, for ever spinning faster and faster until we spin out of total control. If we are’nt already there
Such a simple solution … and yet, most refuse to even contemplate it. It’s the same with guns. Whilst they are permitted and manufactured, we’ll continue to use these instuments (toys) as a convenient way to kill one another. School shootings demonstrates this very factor
My feeling (for what it’s worth), Ban guns and abolish money.
I suspect I’ll continue to be considered a madman … which I am, whereas the only difference between me and the rest, I KNOW I am, whereas the rest are busy trying to prove they are not.
Sure agree with you Jack about the gun situation. Need a law for banning the future selling of guns, at the very least. Does every city have to have a shooting calamity before there is a consensus to stop sales? Obama knows he has to appeal to the common people because lobbyists NRA and ultra conservatives have a strangle-hold on congress, who are inert to act. It’s a scary time.
Permit me to live up to your expectaions. You follow this comment by a clip from a holcause denier … which suggest, to me, the whole point about this comment of yours is to demonstrate YOUR feeling that the holocaust did not take place; or leastways, not to the extent that it has been documented. Why did you not say this outright and directly in your post, instead of hinting by posting the clip.
If you object to Judaism as a religion then make it clear that that is your jibe. If it is that you object to the Jewsh culture, then state likewise OR, if it is that you are bothered by Jews (in your opinion) making too big an issue out of the holocaust; then state that.
If you will, either or all of the above, then we will know where you stand. As things stand, I, for one, am not sure where you are at with this whole business of the holocaust.
This is another factor of what Thuless describes as crooked thinking. It seems you are reluctant to state fully. whats bugging you.
I presume this was written by Gretchen (or Barry) It is beyond me why you would call this man a ‘moron’. Not that I know much about him he was ‘recommended’ to me by someone I respect a lot. And he has written some seemingly well thought of books on many different ‘scientific’ topics. Far from a moron if you would even do a small bit of homework.
But I was thinking about this today and if I was Jewish and I were to find out that the whole gassing stories of my peoploe were not true at all………………..I imagined myself crying………….crying with happiness and relief. I am sure you have read about say a relative or someone you love dying and the person surviving is very anxious to know that they died in comfort or at least not is some great horror and pain. What seems/feels real weird to me is why would you WANT that ‘story’ to be true. What purpose does it serve to feel your people were gassed, tortured etc
It seems odd to say the least and un-fortunately the way I see it sets up for endless non-forgiving and retribution of all kinds. And the ‘Holocaust’ has been used for exactly that purpose – no matter the suffering NOW of all kinds of innocents in the Middle East it is ‘justified’ by what happened THEN (supposedly). Isn’t that a kind of classic primal fuck up and the fact you react in this way suggests a lot to me. A lot of ‘un-resolved’ hatred and mis-understanding but I guess that keeps ‘psycho-therapy’ going on forever and ever……………….Amen!
BTW the Irish people had their own ‘holocaust’ the Famine and I have read a book about it recently. And it seems so strange the question of being a “Famine Denier” never occur ed to me or it seems to anyone else. The Famine I try to find out what I can about it to ‘believe’ in the Famine almost as a ‘religion’ seems so silly and so crazy. My question is why does this ‘belief’ do for you, why would it not make you feel good to find out maybe 200 to 300 thousand died not 6 million.And that they died of disease and starvation mostly and starvation that was mostly caused by Allied bombing? And this is not just a ‘story’ but something well explained and logically quite understandable as by Mr Kollerstrom.
One thing for sure is I have ordered his book and will read it avidly and thank God I have reached a stage in my life where I have the self confidence to be able to distinguish a so called ‘moron’ or not – regardless of what those in ‘authority’ say. To me by this remark their so called ‘authority’ has just gotten a bit lower.
And NO! sarcasm aside when I say “What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” I am NOT referring to Mr Kollerstrom as I am sure you know
Some quotes:-
1) “It is beyond me why you would call this man a ‘moron’” It’s seems obvious to me, that it’s ALL beyond you.
2) “he was ‘recommended’ to me by someone I respect a lot.” Who????
3) “But I was thinking about this today and if I was Jewish and I were to find out that the whole gassing stories of my people were not true at all………………..I imagined myself crying………….crying with happiness and relief.” What (if you were Jewish) would you do if you found out it WAS true?????
4) “What purpose does it serve to feel your people were gassed, tortured etc
It seems odd to say the least and unfortunately the way I see it sets up for endless non-forgiving” I suspect deep grief, but perhaps it’s a feeling you are not cognizant of … Yeah!!!
5) “BTW the Irish people had their own ‘holocaust’ the Famine ” Are you sure this one is true … but not any others!!!
6) “My question is why [what] does this ‘belief’ do for you, ” Why, rather than answer questions put to you, you perpetually seem to dodge them? Answer the question for fuck’s sake!!!
7) “What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” Including the the Irish holocaust and the stories emanating out of the middle east Yeah!!!!
8) “and thank God I have reached a stage in my life ” Ah!! so now we know you are thankful to YOUR god. Seemingly it took all of 63 years to get to this point.
9) “What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” You seem to spend a lot of time being concerned about what you were/are told/read. What if all of it is a crock of shit. Geeze … you’d them be washed right down the sewer Yeah!?????
Patrick, Sorry that was me, I thought I put a G. at the bottom. I would never say someone was a moron unless I had done my homework and I know exactly who Kollerstrom is. Because I am entitled to my opinion I say he is a sad little fool who has been discredited multiple times. You should indeed read his book and beware of reccommendations as often people have an agenda and look for evidence later. You might also want to look up this genuis’s views on a few other subjects. The ” Paul ( McCartney ) is dead ” hoax at the height of the Beatles fame, well according to Kollerstrom yes, in fact , Paul is dead – he calls it the Paul vs Faul theory. According to him Saddam Hussein is alive and well and we never actually landed on the moon. Oh and the planes on 911 well he is convinced they were flown by Jews . Not to mention the London bombings – also the Jews! I’m not interested in a debate about another pathetic nazi so read or believe what you want. I do have a question however. I know you go on the Paleo blog, did you post this link there as well? If not why not? Gretchen
Gretchen – that’s OK I guess since you usually put your initial at least on there I sort of figured it was Barry. I would have been more ‘friendly’ it I thought it was you……………that said it seems you have done a lot of ‘homework’ on this guy and I presume just today, I imagine you were not aware of him before.
I give you that ‘out’ that you did it in a hurry well now since you wrote I have been doing my ‘homework’ as best as I can and here is what I came up with. Below are 3 links and my comments on them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1XMVho4wR4 one thing about Kollerstrom (K.) is he hangs out a bit with some semi-respectable people. What I mean is here we have 2 guys promoting the idea that we did not go to the moon. But listen carefully K. resists them over and over again about that while admitting some oddities. At the end they ask for a vote yes or no and he votes YES!. So Gretchen I would have to say you got that wrong even if he does at least seem to consider the idea (an open mind I suppose!)
The thing about Paul McCartney dying is them ‘reviewing’ a book. Nothing that he wrote about but the does seem to feel comfortable with the idea……………..I would not agree with that but what do I know? What do any of us know? But this seems pretty ‘fringy’ and I wish he would not waste his time on trivia like that. But really it’s ‘gossip’ about a book someone else wrote. This book claims Paul died in 1966…………who knows I don’t believe it but wernt they still ‘teeny boppers’ at that time, if Justin Bieber was ‘replaced’ would any of us be the wiser or would we care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P99i0w88XFY this is more holocaust stuff with a guy called Jim Fetzer, Fetzer seems a bona fide ‘conspiracy’ guy and personally I don’t like that kind of mindset or approach. He holds Fetzer back quite a bit but it is mostly about his own book which as I say I cannot wait to read. Then Fetzer goes on about 9/11 and again K. is skeptical and a bit reserved about a lot of what Fetzer says. Having said all that 9/11 IS a bit strange at least I think so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayhah51ZEe8 Fetzer is saying Saddam had a double (we know that) and that Saddam was killed early in the war and the guy they executed later was a double. So again Gretchen you seem to have got that wrong he is NOT saying Saddam is still alive he is agreeing with Fetzer the Saddam very likely had died earlier than we were told. But even that he questions a bit. K is just asking listening but is sympathetic because of the whole ‘criminal nature’ of the invasion, he even questions the motives of the ‘double’ Then they ‘gossip’ about Bin Laden by Fetzer again K is mostly curious and somewhat skeptical and asking questions not really having a strong position on it. But yes he is skeptical about Osama and why shouldn’t he be Osama WAS a CIA ‘asset’ in the 1980;s the ‘truth of 9/11 is pretty hard to really get to the bottom of it Then there is more good stuff about the holocaust after 30 mins mark
So not to nit pick too much Gretchen you got at least 2 things quite wrong there…………….so my ‘verdict’ on the guy now is he hangs around with some ‘wacky’ characters but I would consider him quite smart and a person with integrity. But I will say more when I have read his book
About the ‘paleo’ blog the only blog I participate a bit is in Dr Kruse’s blog. And funnily enough it was a guy who lives in France who is on that blog who referred me to Kollerstrom. So I might talk about it there but that is more of a ‘health’ site at the moment I am writing to this guy in France ‘on the side’ about this stuff. While on that subject it is AGAINST THE LAW to ‘deny the holocaust’ in France and Germany. Think about that and why that might be! K says the only time ‘evidence’ is allowed in those countries is at trials just before they find you guilty! When I was in Ireland last Summer they were talking about making that law apply all over Europe including Ireland. Can you imagine maybe me writing stuff about this living in Ireland and here come a knock on the door!
They way I see this shaping up……………it’s a bit like Scientology they were able to intimidate and hound their critics until the internet make it impossible to control this may happen slowly with the ‘holocaust denial’ thing………………we will see or maybe it will son be against the law EVERYWHERE. It is still ‘legal’ in the US and the UK I have checked…
BTW something to think about………………K. says that Germany under Hitler had about 3.1 million Jews living there, now 6 million died!!…………….but in the meantime 6 million MORE have made claims as being ‘holocaust survivors’ of which 4 million have been paid. If you can make those numbers add up you put Einstein to shame………….this almost seem too easy this ‘story’ makes little or no sense………….
Gretchen – it is pretty clear that “Holocaust Belief” serves a big and very unfortunate function in the ‘real world’ IMO it has been and is being ‘used’ for devilish purposes so we see Netanyahu (Israeli PM) at the UN without seemingly a trace of concern or God forbid ‘guilt’ about his deliberate wrecking of country after country. He just wants MORE wrecking and is seemingly very unhappy we are not wrecking Iran right now. Not enough destruction for him yet. So that was the main actually the only reason I want to check into the holocaust. I have taken it as given forever why would I not but if you see something year after year being used for destructive purposes and used to start more and more wars well I think let me look into this a bit…………………I have a friend who has talked about this stuff for years and I was always like ‘don’t go there’ this is pointless and I am sure ‘history’ is not being that distorted. So really now by accident I find myself interested in it and will for a start definitely read Kollerstrom’s book which should arrive in a week or two.
But and I am being quite serious here Gretchen can you tell me why you would immediately and strongly resist even a discussion of the subject. You are a smart person and have of course the ‘primal’ orientation so what does it do for you to either ‘believe’ or ‘not believe’ or maybe more to the point not have a position but have a desire to find out what actually happened? Why is that so verboten? I don’t know if you saw the movie last Winter about the British breaking the German codes “The Imitation Game” about Alan Turing who actually did that. Anyway that’s what Kollerstrom is referring to they have a huge amount of ‘transcripts’ of Germans officers talking to each other and conditions in the camps and never ONCE (he says) is there a reference to gassing or killing inmates. They are concerned with getting work done, the physical problems of disease etc which they tried to solve with the very gas that they later were accused of to gas the people. The Germans has no clue they were being listened to.To me this is pretty interesting. Anyway not to get into too much details but would that make you think a bit? Also it seems the ‘first’ theory is they burned the bodies in piles outside and when that was disproved they went to ‘gas chambers’. Now that theory seems to be shot to hell so I am sure some other ‘theory’ will have to be advanced
Anyway Gretchen I would appreciate what you have to say in the ‘psychological’ realm in this matter. I can and am doing ‘research’ in the ‘real world’ aspects but as we all know the ‘psychological’ aspects are very powerful also. If anyone can answer this it might be you.
Quote:- “I can and am doing ‘research’ in the ‘real world’ “. You really are now doing RESEARCH??? and what other world is there … other that this world? I wasn’t aware that there was another one; unless you are referring to the world inside your own head.
Maybe that sums up this last comment of yours. It’s research in your head; Yeah?????
> I feel confused.
> yesterday we went to our mom as usual on saturdays.
> I notice how I tend to lose my patience with my mom, specially when I try to give her advice, like to use a thermo container to make tea in as to keep it warm, instead of a glass jar and then the cups of tea after the first one are only lukewarm..
> she has termos containers, they are not new to her, but when I ask her to do something she seems prone to do it in another way, automatically.
> then I had to throw away the cold tea and boil water again and pour it in the thermos, and probably partly due to the stress of yet another discussion burned myself and lost more patience when she used the thermos in the wrong way , screwing the top off to pour tea instead of pushing on the lever, so I burned myself again and raised my voice in exasperation.
>
> this is only one example, and she got impatient as well and said, angrily, she does things her own way always when we are not there and it goes fine.
> my reply was ok, so we only come here to give you a hard time do we?
> and she again ‘I don’t know what you turn this into’..
>
> then I am feeling bad about myself for being so badtempered, but somehow anger seems to come up, for an unclear reason, too often around her, lately.
>
> it seems to be connected with the lack of true communication, of all advice being seemingly useless as ignored or forgotten..
>
> and then to my surprise she brought up my suggestion she could stay with me for a few days, which I did because of her problems with her landline.
> she said she did feel like doing it, coming to stay with me for a few days, that it sounded like a nice idea..
> I was puzzled, as she did not seem to want to do so when I did invite her a few days ago, don’t know what ade her change her mind, to the point of remembering it well enough to bring it up..
> maybe her boyfriend has reacted to her with surprise about her turning me off, who knows..
>
> but now it seems less necessary as they will repair her phone the next days, and well, now I have different things to do myself, and having my mother over is a 24 hour job every day.
> so maybe I will have her over at some point, when I have some free time to take care of her well..
> fear though it will feel like a chore, as long as I carry that unresolved irrritation, pain, anger, don’t know how to refer to it..
>
> is it a kind of power ting, the need of her accepting what I say just now and then, not eternally her knowing better or doing things her way anyway?
> is it as simple as me wanting her to really hear me, see me?
>
> it is confusing, but it is a big thing, interferes with all of our interaction..
>
> my brother also loses patience with her regularly, but he is way more patiend and warm with her overall, giving her long hugs when we go, while I feel this unresolved feeling makes me just to want to kiss her on the cheeks really.
>
> don’t get me wrong, I am nice with her, and often very patient and supportive, but well, something is going on nevertheless..
>
> there seems some abyss between us, a distance I seem to need to keep, most of the time, probably to protect myself..
>
> somehow it feels like if I don’t, she will take over, and leave nothing of me, just a puppet on a string or something..
>
> it has to do with emptiness as well..
> if I don’t try to take some charge, with the not unreasonable pretext of taking care of her practically, there seems to be nothing, nothing but repetitive cliche sentences about her, and questions about my cats and about my brother and his girlfriend, that seems all there is..
>
> that is painful, what about me, my life, my needs, my pain and fears and occasional joys?
>
> there is a lot of old shit in this, and I fear not being able to sort it out and get on a bit better, before it is too late, and she will be gone mentally or dead, maybe only then will I be able to feel the pain of what is not there, maybe now I cling to some hope against all odds…
>
> sadness right under the surface, seems too big to allow, tooo much despair there, have to make sure I can go on myself with living…
>
> did not manage to go dancing today, once more, did make the appointment though to go yesterday, for the dance of today, but after burning my hand used that to cancel it again..
> today my hand was better though, but mental strength was lacking..
>
> this way i risk my own life going by wasted, need to get a hold on myself again soon..
>
> did make some plans for new dance already and sent some mail to get a partner to go together, so that is good, despite all the hardships….
>
> will have to try with my mom not to be too directive, but simply help without getting into any struggle if possible..
>
> not always easy, but well, we’ll see how far it gets me..
>
> have to check with the nursing service if my mom still has enough medication, will have to figure out some way to solve it if she is running out of it.
> yesterday she seemed again more prone to discussion, which made me wonder if she ran out of pills maybe..
>
> or maybe it is me, ha, trying to make her listen to me once, accepting my opinion just once, for a change.
> must give that hope up.
>
> i think it wears us out, my brother and me, to be giving and giving, and not really being getting very much.
>
> she is not entirely blind though, I remember once in the hospital, while I was just sitting in a sofa while she was eating at a table with some other ladies of her room.
> she looked at me, and asked me if I was ok, as I looked somewhat lonely..
> i said I was ok, but had to turn to the window a second later, as suddenly I became very teary, as I realized she had hit the nail on the head really..
>
> what does inhibit us to really communicate, or inhibit me, not sure..
> M
I hear you, Margaret. My mom was able to hone in on my and my brother’s emotions very keenly. Once when he visited, after he left she said “J. didn’t seem like himself today.” And I said “maybe you weren’t yourself either.” And she replied, “Yeah, I guess not.” One day I was very tired because she had kept me awake a lot during the night, (Alzheimer patients lose their circadian rhythms), and I was crying about not being able to cope with this. She was very understanding and sympathetic and hugged me and said “Please don’t be upset it’s not worth it.”
On practical matters she would challenge me all the time and emphasized that she was the mother, not me. But I would tell her I was just trying to help. I really needed to keep her safe in that last year. I wasn’t trying to take control from her but she saw it that way. I tried to respect her feelings, but like with a child you don’t let them do things like eat spoiled food. She got angry a lot over little stuff. Luckily I had a neighbor who had experience with 2 people with Alzheimers in her family and could tell me what to expect. My brother’s wife also had experiences working in a residential care. Outside input is so helpful.
Well Margaret, I think you are doing a good job and I agree it is important to maintain your own sense of identity.
And by your accurate read on the holocaust matters you still prove your facile mind.
Take care, S
> something in this ‘wacky’ topic on the blog is triggering me to the point of making me feel a bit nauseous.
>
> I don’t want to call it a conversation as it is not. it is the selective blind- and deafness, the watertight front to exclude all what does not fit in with the set of ‘opinions’ and ‘truths’ that support a view on reality that fits the emotional mindset.
>
> not possible to reach, that is what triggers me.
>
> there is some similarity with my mom, although the situation could not be more different on many levels.
>
> a major difference is that with my mom I will keep looking for ways to do what is right, reach her anyway by taking good care of her, try to be nice and gentle with her.
> it is a bit hard to reach her, but not impossible, kindness is often the way, works better than struggling.
>
>
> Patrick, all I want to say to you about this subject is asking you if ever you could bring up the guts to walk into a holocaust museum or even go to one of the former concentration and extinction camps for a visit, read the literature about that as well and not only the denial literature. which one do you think has an agenda most probably?
> your jugggling with some numbers is not convincing, there were not only Jewish people killed, and not only German people but people from all over Europe were deported to those camps.
> don’t want to get into any argument about htis really, just feel well, sorry but if I am honest, the only word is disgusted..
> you think your mind is finally open and free, but well, I kind of see it the other way around, it seems more submerged than ever in a crazy struggle looking up the company of more ‘wacky’ people, Collarstrong hangs out with them, you hang out with Collarstrong so to say, birds of a kind flock together, you still seem stuck in your childhood game of the bad ones and the good ones, to a degree that sounds very unhealthy.
>
> just my view and honest opinion, for what it is worth.
> M
> and then the insanity of some of the arguments..
> so some of the victims died of disease and starvation, instead of making it to the gas chambers. so what, they don’t count?
> if your whole family died of starvation, or had to work themselves to death in the cold, or wh
> ere used for medical experiments, that does not count? you can discount those kids that were finished off by an injection with toxic substances straight in their heart, and then the time they took to pass away was measured..
> cause that is another flaw in your denial story, the Germans were Grundlich, they counted and made lists of what they did, and actually I seem to remember they started using gas as a way to be more ‘efficient’, as the starving took too much time..
> this queest to disprove the atrocity of the holocaust is insane, and it being illegal falls under the same kind of reasoning as does the prohibition we have to the preaching of hated and violonce illegal.
>
> it must be so painful for the families of the victims to run into repeated attempts to deny it all, that that is already a good reason as well to prohibit it, as there is ample proof of the horrible truth by now.
>
> this issue for me stands completely apart of the fact it might be used in a wrong way at times to give an excuse for new atrocities against other people, that is an entirely different matter, and not the subject here right now.
>
> you always refuse to look at your own agenda Patrick, so I am not arr
>
> ttempting to reach you here, merely pointing out some flaws and crazy reasoning.
>
> M
Margaret – do you know if Belgium is a country where ‘holocaust denial’ or maybe even ‘holocaust doubt’ is illegal? If so your comments would be fairly irrelevant in that you have no choice in the matter! How weird is that do you wonder why anyone would put you in such a situation? Maybe don’t want you to think for yourself. This can of course set the course for a lot MORE of that so you more easily swallow whatever you are told about vaccines being good for your cats etc etc.It for sure sets a tone of we know what is good for you, no need to think for yourself etc. And you follow along pretty faithfully as seemingly Sylvia does too well as most everyone does. It’s not called “the greatest lie ever told” for nothing. Hey if you swallow a really big lie smaller ones should not be such a big deal and so it.is.
You said “I seem to remember they started using gas as a way to be more ‘efficient’, as the starving took too much time” what you mean of course is you remember reading that somewhere does not make it true. Of course you pay no attention to the actual intercepted messages when the British broke the German codes where nothing of that nature EVER comes up in over a year of listening. Did you listen to the video…………..probably not as the guy said rather that actually listen to what he says there is all this fuss and noise around it………………..as usual. Does or did Grethchen watch the video again hard to say she is so quick on the draw about the guy being a ‘moron’!!??!! and then all the frantic disparagement of the guy.
Quote:- “what you mean of course is you remember reading that somewhere does not make it true”. Don’t you do exactly the same?????? It seems to me that you’ll pick on anything in your so called RESEARCH that agrees with your AGENDA. The right wing politicians do the same thing with the bible:- pick on what suits their cause … and ignore the rest of it. All very convenient for you Yeah??????
Let’s get back top your original message this time around “What if so much of what we have been told is not true………………..?” OR read. Isn’t that the same thing.
What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander OR … have you become some great research scientist now … leaving us peons in the dust?
That’s not what you look like from where I am sitting.
Jack
P.S. go back to your ‘rabbit hole’ Griffin with the Mad hatter and Queen of Hearts. I couldn’t resist that one.
Hey Patrick, First of all I never said anything about this being a subject we could not discuss. I did, in fact, know who Kollerstrom was before your post and I simply reacted to what I know about him. I was not banning the subject. What I don’t want to do is debate this subject but others are free to if they choose to. Personally I don’t think it’s the issue. I will address a few things you have said however. First Kollerstrom actually wrote the book on Paul McCartney he was not reviewing it. He was not disagreeing with Fetzer on subjects like whether we landed on the moon or the Paul was dead wackiness and in fact he was a major contributor to Fetzer’s book outlining these various conspiracies. He did indeed initially claim that a double was killed in Sadams place and that he was still alive. Apparently the second Sadam is finally dead now too. Bin Laden had his own conspiracy as did 911 and a host of other world events like the bombing of the tube in London. You know when I disagree with someone I don’t look for those who will confirm my views. I look for those who don’t. For me that is the only way to find what’s true or to determine what I might be wrong about. Kollerstrom has been so widely disputed that there is no need for me to take it point by point. You can read the facts on the Internet . Thousands have testified to what happened in the Holocaust. I have no need to believe it as you imply I just do because frankly those are the facts. I suggest you read about the Nuremburg trials where both Nazis and survivors testified. Read the book Night, one persons account of those events. Do you know who Oskar Kroning is? He has been in the news recently. He was a member of the SS at Auschwitz. After the war he did not speak of what happened and lived quietly and I guess secretly for over forty years. But something forced him to speak, even though it would be likely he would be tried at age 93 for war crimes. You know what it was ? A Holocaust denier. He could no longer be silent and he began to confront the deniers about what really occurred. We don’t need to look for what the guards said in ” secret messages” – many have spoken and you might look up Kronings responses online. You have made a point of lamenting crimes against Muslims – why are you so comfortable with crimes against Jews? I personally think we should all stand against anyone who has been oppressed whether it be Jews, Muslims, Blacks , Gays – it really doesn’t matter to me. Maybe I am wrong but I think it does matter to you. I just think we all need to look inward to insure we don’t have other prejudices or agendas motivating us. That’s my opinion. As an aside , I have to say I would not choose Kollerstrom as my spokesman, Gretchen
Well Gretchen thanks for writing, you don’t have to write to so I appreciate the fact you do. I am surprised actually that you have heard of Kollerstrom. I had not until last week when someone send me a link. Does that mean you kind of ‘monitor’ these kind of guys you seem to know an awful lot about him as I say I am surprised. This also shows I am ‘new’ to this kind of world holocaust denier or doubter world so to speak. I as I say find Israels actions quite disgusting for a long time now but deliberately kept way from an area like that. It can only lead to trouble I used to think and maybe think correctly let’s hope I am wrong for my own sake. But I will explore it some more with as open a mind as I can and it is helpful to know Kollerstrom can be a bit of a ‘conspiracy guy’ clearly he is. At the same time I have learned often people can be really sound in one area but not in another I have to say I was impressed by that lecture and will read his book very carefully and thoughtfully and then see what I think/feel about it.
A few points. I don’t think you are correct that K wrote a book on Paul McCartney he was talking about/reviewing a book he and others speculated was written by the guy who took McCartney’s place (supposedly). I may be wrong about that but I think you are wrong for what it’s worth (nothing!)
Now I have listened to the whole thing about landing on the Moon and he WAS disagreeing with Fetzer. Listen again he says it probably at least 3 times that he thought we DID land on the Moon. So I really think you are wrong about that one it does not help to be muddying the water like that IMHO.
About Saddam Hussein my you really ARE following this closely. Why? I mean the interview I heard he was more hearing out Fetzer that Saddam was killed and then was replaced with a ‘double’ I mean I heard that with my own ears……………..Jeez you seem to follow different ‘stages’ on this guy. Why again!!??. This I find strange almost like you can’t wait to shut him up and discredit him. As far as reading ‘facts’ about him on the internet since when did that become reliable. I like what you say about seeking out contrary views that’s good well then again here you have one and you have my promise I will read his book so thoroughly and careful and ‘report’ back then if you don’t mind.
As far as Kroning goes K mentioned him in that lecture. Well the guy IS 93 years old who knows the reality of this.Let’s face it we don’t could he even have Alzheimer’s or whatever we have no idea. One thing I think is quite wrong when you say ‘secret messages’. There is nothing secret about them they are ‘transcripts’ intercepted by the British by Alan Turing (I mentioned the movie about him it is excellent and if you have not seen it will give you a great feeling of what was involved there) Also the important point is the Germans had no idea they were being listened in on so to me that is very interesting. I think a lot of K.’s ‘case’ is based on those and why not. I would say a lot more reliable that ‘witness statements’ for many many reasons. (Speaking of witness statements K says NOBODY has ever been able to testify they saw someone being gassed to death in the camps)
As far as my attitude towards Jews I grew up in Ireland I had never met a Jew until I came here. Sometimes after I came here someone might say “Is he/she Jewish?” and I am like I have no idea something like that would never cross my mind to wonder about. I would say I have had no negative relationships with Jews either personally or in business etc but I do follow world affairs fairly closely and I am appalled by what they are doing and their influence in the world. I am I will just tell you that. What they are doing internally to the Palestinians defies description and their role in all these wars leading to refugee crisis etc is beyond terrible. So there I go by what I see and the actions speak louder than words. So I delve beneath this as best as I can since I have the time and as I told you I will ‘report’ back on that book with your permission. Thanks Gretchen I feel you give me ‘respect’ even if I am still at variance with some of your ‘facts’
Quote:- “This also shows I am ‘new’ to this kind of world holocaust denier or doubter world so to speak. I as I say find Israels actions quite disgusting for a long time now but deliberately kept way from an area like that. “. From my reading or you, you’ve been at this for quite some time. Not a newby as I see you. As for keeping away from it. That agian is not what I have been reading of you.
I get the feeling that you are confusing yourself about three different factors here. Firstly:- Judaism as a religion: secondly:- Jewish Culture: and thirdly:- the Israeli government’s policies and actions.
For what it’s worth I feel you might make it all a bit clearer if you were to state which of these factors is seemingly bugging you. I feel if you were to do do just that you could be less ‘long winded’ in your responses. You are not a ‘straight” or ‘clear thinker’ as I see you.
You are also stressing again that what you have heard is:- “the fact of the matter” but that what everyone else suggests is highly dubious. Isn’t that a little conceited???
Lastly:- there are as many “world views” as there are people on the planet with “world views. Why are you so, so, so sure your “world view” is the only correct one?????
Unlike Gretchen with you, I have no doubt at all, that you will NOT answer any of my question. But hey hoo!!! what the fuck.
> Sylvia,
> thanks a lot for your reply. It indeed helps so much to hear other people’s story and to feel understood and heard.
> it sounds like you also worked very hard to take care of your mother.
>
> and Jack, I couldn’t have said it better, you are so right about picking out only the material that suits an agenda and dismissing all the rest as unreliable..
>
> and still regarding oneself as the one and only true researcher,ha, but hey, guess it is all too obvious to go into once more.
> M
This particular video started for me the change in attitude regarding ‘The Holocaust’. I have seen many videos, I read many books and just did some logical thinking and I came to the conclusion: we have been lied to on a massive scale. You can have a piece of me.
I cannot ever know for certain if Nazi Germany exterminated 6 million Jews mainly, but also Gays and Gypy’s during Hitler’s Chancelorship or not. Not all of them from Germany but from other countries he conquered, From circunstancial evidence I feel that if it did not occur; then the German peoples in the 70 years since WWll would have put up a strong fight against the holocauset. To the best of my knowledge I have heard no such protest from the Germans.
Further; my great grand father on the Waddington side, had a brother that immigrated to Germany in the late 1890’s and his children and grandchildren are still there. Members of my family have visited Germany and these relative have visited us in England. Again I never heard from any of them any denial of the death camps of Hitler and his Nazi government
Another factor is that a German Jewish gay friend of mine, from my early twenties, who’s family owned a pharmacy chain in east Germany; fled Germay super fast after “Kristal Nacht”. It was clear to him and his family that Hitler was very anti Jewish. One other factor, had there not been death camps in Germany I am quite sure that the defendants at Nuerenberg would have insisted that no such death camps existed. Lastly the photograph I saw in the British newspaer at the end of the war of Bergen-Belsen, Auschwitz and Dachau demonstrated that at least “concentration camps” of Jews, Gays and Gypsys did exist. If I remember rightly there were also pictures of the gas chambers, and mass graves.
I can only guess from my limited knowledge of psychology that Hitler must have encountered a bad experience with Jews in his childhood, teens or early twenties. It is also an irony that the “Brown Shirts” (a German gay political group) helped Hitler into power; then when in power Hitler, by all accounts I am aware of, had then masacured. afterwards. All in all I do feel that most admit that Nazi Germany was a phenomionon that is generally (but for a few), not recomended as a political system.
I have an interest in history and do a lot of reading. I think the evidence anddocumentation about the Holocaust is overwhelming. What about all the people wholost family members, are they all lying too? I recall reading that within the Naziregime the gassing of Jews and others was not widely known by the public or evenmilitary. It was secretive. On an impulse some time ago, I purchased and read a book entitled “The Bad War: The Truth Never Taught About WorldWar II”. A really awful book clearly written by neo-nazis. It claimed that Hitler was a peace lovinghumanitarian. It also said that the gas chambers were actually a health intervention designed tokill lice and other parasites. This book was so bad that there was a certain entertainment valuein reading it. A book full of many more lies than just denying the Holocaust.Things to think about; if the Holocaust is all a made up lie, why would anyone do that, and hope toget away with it? Zionism started quite a few years earlier, although it accelerated as a movement afterWorld War II.I just don’t get the attraction to the idea that the Holocaust is a hoax. It is similar to other ideassuch as 911 being an inside job, HIV not causing AIDS, and Barack Obama being a Muslim etc. Just reallywacked out. Phil Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 23:12:45 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Joop – it is good to see you on here (I know Joop pretty well). You are a very smart and sensitive person you would have a lot to say on here and NOT only about the holocaust. You have a lot to offer and I realize that more since you left here and moved back to Europe. If I can speak for you you are another one (as well as me and lots of others) whose experience at the PI was quite a bit less than ideal. For myself I have found this blog very helpful in terms of ‘resolving’ that or coming to terms with that whatever words you want to use……………..it may not be relevant to you at all just saying what my experience has been. It’s never too late even if it pisses me off all the time wasted and how I had to kind of figure all this out on my own. I like to think I have found my way (at last) but as I say not really ‘guided’ by Janov more ‘un-learning’ a lot of what I internalized and though I ‘understood’ from him. This is a big subject but I just want to encourage you to express yourself in whatever way will help you and like me ‘standard primal’ kind of left you cold even if you know deeply there is something very important there.
Joop: I too knew you very well, but I have a far different take on why those few that felt disgruntled about Primal Therapy, and yes, there are quite a few, is because it did not provide them with what they hoped on entering the Primal Institute.
If one did not get any of the promise then it becomes yet another defense on their part as to WHY … doing their very best to NOT look inside themselves. That is the very nature of “defending” It takes courage to look into oneself to see why we felt the promise was not met. “Blame the messanger … not me … it couldn’t be ME”, mantra.
Feeling ones deep feelings is scary and difficult, but not impossible if one will refrain from DEFENDING. However, it is understandable why some would not want to go there … but the promise will never be reached unless one takes that risk.
OK Gretchen – it looks like you are correct on that one. It’s weird I looked it up on amazon earlier and checked around as much as I could and did not find anything.
Now I found a lecture by him on this same topic by Kollerstrom and though it may weaken my ‘case’ in that I am sure to many people this would convince them this guy is some kind of nut case. I mean my first reaction is this is pretty crazy, but then sometimes ‘crazy’ might has a point This makes a weird kind of sense and who can say for sure he is wrong
This might be a nice change from the holocaust a dark subject if ever there was one and I wonder if maybe some people here who might know a lot about the Beatles have any thoughts or ideas. I have to say at least to me what he says has some strange rings of truth. I don’t know a whole lot about the Beatles for some reason I think of Ultimate Guru he might has some quirky and interesting takes on this
I mean it is not impossible…………………I wonder about John Lennon’s song to/about McCartney “the only thing you did was “Yesterday”/and since then it’s just been “Another Day”…………..was “Yesterday’ written before or after 1966. He mentioned the British economy I remember one time Ringo Starr was asked why they were given the OBE (Order of the British Empire) and he said in his droll way ‘i dunno, probably for making more money for Britain’ a kind of echo of what this guy talked about. He mentioned the ‘new Paul’ being bossy I remember a quite intense scene from the “Let it Be” movie where George was totally pissed off at Paul and kept say “I’ll do whatever you want man, just tell me and I will do it etc” These are just a few things that pop into my mind no need to be too serious about it think of it like some parlor or board game. Come to think of the last 4 Beatles albums WERE quite different to what went before. Now I think of Otto, Otto if you are reading you must have some interesting take on this………………
This is the song John Lennon wrote to/about Paul McCartney after the Beatles broke up. Honestly listening to this I would not say it ‘supports’ Kollerstrom’s notions though some of the words ARE intriguing and even references the Paul died idea. But he is very angry at Paul but even that is more understandable as some kind of long term ‘break up’ though you never know. 4 years is also a ling time
Gretchen – this is a trailer of the movie I have mentioned twice recently. You may know all this and have seen the movie but it is based on truth……………..that the British hacked the codes the Germans were using and this enabled them in hugh measure to win the war. But Kollerstrom says they also got huge information on how the Germans were running the work camps and what all the German commanders were saying fully not expecting that anyone was ‘listening in’. To me that IS interesting and it seems these were ‘state’s secret’ until sometime in the 1990’s by which time of course all the ‘history’ has been written. He also says there was not much mention of ‘gas chambers’ until about 10 years after the war. Before then supposedly the Jews were burned in big outdoor pyres until that was proved not to be possible. Then the ‘story’ changed to gas chambers………………in a court of law that would not wash. But now at least in Europe all that is impossible it is literally ‘illegal’ to try to re-think or re-try any on this. Plus Germans and French also have been so stuffed with guilt from early childhood I honestly think it is difficult for them to even think straight about this issue. K says even in England where it is not illegal children have this stuff stuffed down their throat and from a very young age. You know how powerful early ‘brain washing’ is and can be. Count me as someone who is try to ‘un-brain wash’ himself in the broad sense and maybe something like this kind of goes along with it (for the ride so to speak)
Primal Institute 
Just following directions and pasted new page address in my browser.One of the thumbnails at the head of this page reads, ” The Stupidist People All in One Gallery.” LOL Another is a sweet sleeping baby cuddled with a sleeping Pug.
don’t want to miss comments page three, so subscribing.
Ist time I made head of the class, ha….
Wowee Getchen et al … back to square one. It does make WordPress operate faster … for a while at least.
Jack
Leslie, I wrote a response to your comment on Page 2 dated “July 19, 2015 at 10:37 pm” regarding Patrick’s long response self-justifying and explaining why he behaved as he did Sunday July 12, although he did reluctantly offer some apology, which I accept is better than none. My new comment, dated “July 20, 2015 at 8:11 pm” would have been well out-of-context on this new page. But I didn’t want you to miss it.
Thank you Vicki – I appreciate it, and also all you are doing for yourself with what appears to be a never-ending debacle.
Leslie I wonder what is ‘never ending’ about it?…………this ‘debacle’ happened on Sunday July 19th and you are writing on Monday July 20th. So it’s a day! I guess I understand for you Leslie a day where we are not ‘supporting’ each other and sending each other little cutsie message and ‘assuring’ ourselves how we are all still here and how ‘wonderful’ we all are is a long time……………..your time frame would not be mine, people all over the place have to suffer things sometimes for years and years and they do, Vicki’s ‘debacle’ in the big picture I don’t think is so ‘awful’ or ‘horrendous’ and it certainly is not ‘never ending’ it seems to be over already and it has gone on for all of a day…………..for some reason I think of a mother who has a child with life long problems from for example vaccines could quality as a ‘never ending debacle’ but sorry to intrude I am sure you have someone else you need to ‘complement’ and say how ‘wonderful’ they are and how great all we the ‘elect’ are doing………………unreal world……………
I guess I missed a week there somewhere but I was counting Vicki’s ‘debacle’ from when she started talking about it. But correction then it was a week and a day…………
Quote: “but sorry to intrude”.
Then don’t.
Jack
??……….are you even ‘quoting’ me any more or just making stuff up. Idiot.
Willie Nelson Blue Skies. well i will keep on dreamin…
Subscribing,
M
Subscribing ⚓️
Here is something Dr Kruse wrote about living is LA (specifically LA)…………….he was not talking to me or about me (though maybe he had me in the back of his mind lol)
“The world around you (Los Angeles) as a minefield of electromagnetic, chemical, and blue light smog and an assault on your senses, and you still can’t observe it but your mitochondria do. I’m sure that it literally steals joy as it shreds DHA, cellular hydration, and circadian timing. No wonder so many people in that city are so bad tempered.”
Makes one wonder a bit……………..
Maybe Jack Kruse was talking directly to you telling you to get the fuck outta the place … since I get the feeling you are the one emitting a bad temper.
Sadly, for you, it seems never ending. Me thinks however, it has a history 😦 .
Jack
Idiot again……………
> Patrick, maybe you should look up the meaning of the word debacle before you go off on one of your rants and completely miss the point.
> your mitochondria must be shortcircuiting quite a lot lately, imho.
>
> and you never answered my or Donals question in a direct way, just more evasion and smokescreens.
> M
> p.s. I am not sure even I would use the word debacle in this case. it is an ongoing battle and I know from my own experience how hard it is to end a deepply rooted longterm addictive kind of defense. in the meantime other big progresses can be made.
>
> it is also hard to do real physical exercise when having injuries at crucial joints from car or sports accidents, again I know from my own experience.
>
> i understand what you meant to say though Leslie, I guess I am still simply very indignified by how Patrick treats a person for which I have a lot of respect and admiration.
>
> I have shared house with each one of them so I can say I know both of them a bit.
>
> Patrick would have discarded me for my disability, he once admitted, if he had not gotten to know me better living with me.
>
> for me all persons are worthwhile, but that does not mean their behaviour does not affect my respect for them at a given moment.
>
> and well, at the moment, and I know Patrick you probablly don’t give a shit, but right now imo you are really off track and even proud of it.
>
> I feel actually bad about it, as you have great potential but seem to prefer to remain in your shell of contempt and dismissiveness. a very isolated place to be, but your own choice.
>
> sad really,, but you will probably ridicule me saying so. so be it.
> M
” Patrick would have discarded me for my disability, he once admitted, if he had not gotten to know me better living with me”
Margaret – I have to take you up on that point………….this is really bullshit. You are way over the top with that and wrong. And ‘lying’…………….what the hell are you trying to say/do with that. Total rubbish
Subscribing; though I see the fox is still in the chicken coop. No one here but us chickens.
S
Sylvia,Cockadoodledoo to you.Phil
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:11:53 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Any cock ‘ll do. 🙂 🙂
Couldn’t resist that Phil
Jack
For you yes it seems it also seems since maybe you have to “behave” yourself a bit now you are even more cranky and hateful than usual for all the pr you do here> does not “fool” me for a minute>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
” Fox???” Bre’r Fox, Reynard… ??? I like the line, “… like leaving the fix in charge of the hen house…” We never have a problem with foxes in our hen house, only minks and weasels. lol
Too bad your chickens can’t morph into the territorial protective goose like we do here.
Now that’s a bird to fear…. Once while making a house call, my patient was not home and her Austrian gander kept me prisoner in the back porch for several hours until her return. There was a hockey stick in the porch I naively thought I could use to shoo him away after I saw , Repeating, ” Nice goosey,,” having proven a failed strategy. Well, with one mighty swoop of the fore part of his wing, and the hockey stick handle snapped in two. Not wanting that fate for my shin bones, I cowered in the porch.
Oh, I forgot, we do have 5 geese, but they are those all noise, hide behind hens, no action, cowardly inbred white geese, boo, and they scatter.. Great for clearing up dung larvae though. The farm so reflects the cycle of life, from dung to dung…ha
> haha, is that the sound American roosters make??
> in France they say cocorico and in Flemish kukeleku!
>
> and no fox really, just one more very crazy chicken, maybe it picked up some weird mushroom or well, a bad bug?
> M
Are the ‘positives’ with the fucked up micro-biome on the loose/ Margaret you are a fucking liar…………..I was only good to you when you were there, I took you shopping many many times, I drove you to group. I was nice to you as you were to me
I think you need to ‘explain’ what you meant by that comment about what I said. And NO cocoroo or whatever the fuck ‘evasions’ you are doing now is NOT good enough. Repeat NOT good enough………………so get off your little cutesy little bullshit and EXPLAIN yourself. Tell us/me the context what we were talking about what you think I meant at the time etc etc etc. ……………you never mentioned this before or at the time of course at the time would be hard since it didn’t happen LOL but going along with your ‘story’ how did you feel when I ‘said’ that LOL I know there is lot of ‘group think’ here and you feel safe I suppose to slander me but keep in mind I know what’s right at least for myself and all your lying and crap and you might get agreement from PR man I am sure you will……………..does not make ANY of it ‘true’. You are so mad at me it seems because really if you think about I showed you how you fucked up your cat totally……………NOT deliberatly but you DID and you probably WILL again……………..such is the price of a closed mind. Not the only price but one of them…………
Yoiu disgusting little liar………………
Where is PR man………….I would have expected a ‘retort’ by now……………I should go over there and kick the dick out of his mouth………………
> excuse me Patrick, but I am not lying.
> you told me so yourself, in a conversation we had in the living room.
> we were talking actually about the tendency to dismiss and label people upon a first impression of stereotypic ‘negative’ qualities like in my case being visually disabled, or in vicky’s case having a bad knee, or well, it is pretty clear here you often use Jack’s age or sexual preference to try to insult him, need I say more?
>
> so to prove my point in our conversation, which was a calm and nice one, I asked you straightforwardly if you would have regarded me when you got to know me merely from a distance at the retreat, instead of sharing a house with me as well, as just another primal loser just for looking ‘weak’ in your terms, being blind, and you said you probably would have done so indeed.
> so whatever you say, my memory is pretty good, and I do not actually hold it against you as at that moment it was fine,as you admitted then it would have been wrong as you added I clearly did not match the way you would have classified me without getting to know me better.
>
> that is why I feel so disappointed about your way of treating Vicky, who actually is a fine person and very sharp in many ways, honest to the core and with loads of empathy combined with a great capacity to speak her mind.
>
> the way you adressed her is so demeaning, and I do not mean for her, but for you. I wish you’d snap out of it, I really think you know better and don’t get why you prefer to stay in that mindset.
>
> but well, some things are a burdeon of the past, some things are out of our control, and some things are really a matter of choice still. it is a free world, and as I am a hopeless optimistic I can’t help but keep hoping you will find how to let your better side prevail, I know it is there, and I truely regret you are stuck in all that bitterness and anger and hostility.
>
> you think we are all against you, but that is basically not true.
>
> you set yourself up and create this situation over and again, for reasons only you can unravel.
>
> hope you do in a nearby future, life is too precious to waste.
> M
> Patrick, please slow down and take a deep breath.
>
> you know my comments get pasted on the blog for me so there is a delay between me reading the comments and my reply appearing, that has been the case for years and years and I have repeatedly explained it.
>
> the cocorico was written earlier on and had nothing whatsoever to do with ignoring you.
>
> the friendly explanation I wrote about what I said was written before that last rant at me, calling me again, what I forgot, something like a dirty lyer, but in worse terms.
>
> do you see now your rage and insults tend to carry you away and make you lose touch with reality?
>
> do you see in what I wrote I did not bring it up to slap your face with it, but as an example of how back then you noticed how your jumping to conclusions about people can definitely be wrong and how back then you actually sounded like you wanted that to change, which for me was a very good thing.
>
> my bottom line all the time is you let yourqualities to be overruled by your anger, which is a true shame, as indeed I have experience of many of your good sides.
>
> so do you see now your lashing out at me and calling me names in that last comment was maybe somewhat precocious and coloured by your well, hesitate to use the word, feelings?
>
> it is sad you regard attempts to reach you and be of help as hostility and that you lash out before seeing what is really there.
> M
Margaret; I’m not wading into the issues here at all, but I wanted to say how brilliantly you voiced this comment.
Margaret, I also thought this was very well done.
Subscribing.
Sandy, glad you’re on the blog
OK Margaret – I can let that whole thing go……………..and some was based on misunderstanding because of the way you comment’s are ‘delayed’. Fine it’s over as far as I am concerned but I do and did think you are really stretching things about me ‘discarding’ you. How could I ‘discard’ you? I mean that is nothing of my choice there and it seemed to me you think it’s easy as I am ‘down’ now to just pile any old crap on me. It is not! And don’t forget just because I am ‘out-numbered’ doesn’t mean a whole lot to me. My very first class in Philosophy in College the lecturer had this whole thing about the saying “Ten thousand Frenchmen can’t be wrong” and the Professor said not only can they be but very often they are. That has always stuck with me and actually it seems even more true as I see the way life is.
I want to ask Larry something. I mention Larry because he has been here a long time and I see him as basically a fair person and sensitive for the most part to what is going on. I want to ask him how does he thing HE would feel or anyone else for that matter if just about everything he wrote was ‘quoted back’ at him in the manner of it was ‘stupid’ or ‘wrong’ or whatever. I am honestly asking you Larry and my take is I can look I am sure very bad here sometimes but to me it’s sort of like those ISIS guys when they behead someone. What’s missing is the appalling provocations and destructiveness unleashed on their people by sneaky PR men.I AM talking about Jack he constantly and deliberately provokes me……………some people say ignore him…………I do…………for a while. But I see no reason for me to bite my tongue while this guy feels free to provoke, insult, throw stuff back in my face on and on day after day.
Leslie complained about the ‘poison’ on the blog and like I said I AGREE with her. It IS poison………….but Larry again to appeal to you who STARTS this shit all the time. I can tell you JACK does, I leave him be whatever he is going on about I leave it alone. He NEVER leaves me alone. He has even admitted it is ‘perverted’ I would say it is.So why do it then? If he knows it is ‘perverted’ since he makes such a show of being some kind of evolved primal man why do it then?
I value the blog whatever people may think of me and once again I agree with Leslie very much. This is NOT what I want here at all. This guy is pouncing all over me, like one time just as a random example I said vaccines was not the main point. His ‘retort’ “why the fuck do you talk about it then” That is a typical response from him. I am not asking you to take sides Larry but for God’s sake this is out of control. And nobody attempts to take control, not Gretchen not anybody. It is easy and lazy to see me as the perpetrator I am not!!. All I do when I sick to my stomach of this guys sarcasm and jibes and jive then I react . Yes I do!! As you would Larry or as would anybody. Anyway whatever this is all probably on deaf ears but I try really I just put down what is on my mind.
I am not some ‘maniac’ whatever people might like to believe………….is someone talks to me with a reasonable amount of care and respect I return that in kind. But this shit has gone on way too long prompted by David I even tried to make peace…………….NO go from ‘primal man’. i wonder what is going on really with Jack……………..to me he is a hollow man his notions are weak, he portrays himself as some kind of feeling paragon……………..but who in their right mind would day after day just try to destroy someone’s confidence, integrity and every thing else. It is a very sad ‘testament’ to primal if this is the ‘graduate’ really to me a terrible failure in most every area of life
And maybe this is what pisses him off so much………………to me he is PR man and I make it clear I am not ‘fooled’. At the same time we are all just trying to find our way in life if he basically leaves me alone I have no problem letting him be.
Patrick Tuesday July 21, 2015
Quote:- “…… to find our way in life if he basically leaves me alone ………”
You should having fucking well thought about ALL THAT when you first came on the blog 3.5 years ago.
I merely poke back to you your own ****** words … you on the other hand … it seems, “verbally bully”. I gather, something your pappy taught you whilst you played in the school yard … and seemingly, to this very day, you can’t give up.
quote:- “What goes around … comes around”
Jack
Patrick, I’m not a therapist, I can’t help you. If you had been doing therapy these past many years, resolving some of you inner demons, Jack’s antics might not bother you so much by now. He really is a lighting rod reminding you of all you had to deal with in childhood. You and he will keep throwing blows at each other until the end of time, hapless puppets of your childhoods, or until one of you looks to resolve the inner life driving you.
In the meantime, for the sake of the blog all I and others can do is not bother to read the poison you and Jack hurl at one another.
I like that you value the blog Patrick. I think we all want the profoundly caring, supportive exploration of feelings that can happen here, but the unique atmosphere is easily destroyed.
Well thanks for nothing Larry as we used to say growing up. I don’t care for this thing about “if you had been doing therapy”………….well Larry I do believe I have and continue to. I do things my own way it does not check off any boxes anywhere the PI or wherever.
I notice others do this too like Vicki just say “Patrick is not in therapy” or “he does not pursue his feelings or whatever”……………..I find this pretty silly. I mean it was interesting I mentioned I spent an enjoyable day with two guys who were at the retreat. I tried to honestly look at it I could see no real difference in our situations, I certainly did not feel somehow they were ‘in’ therapy and I was ‘out’. If anything and of course this is just by definition only my way……………….I felt what I do is much better for me than kind of waiting in between one retreat and the next. Which is kind of what they told me they do or have to do.at it seems to them. A lot of people I know fall into this if primal was ‘vibrant’ which it’s not in any way that I can see you would have formal or informal groups all over the place. Instead you have a place as big as London and STILL to this day all that is ‘on offer’ really it seems is come to LA. The very same dilemma I had all the way back in the ’70’s. Nothing changes much especially in primal world which has become some kind of dysfunctional time warp. It was ‘dysfunctional’ then and what is so weird it is still so and even in the same way. In primal land literally nothing changes……………and it’s a therapy based on the IDEA of change……………I emphasize ‘idea’ an idea only it has remained.. From any real world perspective it has utterly failed and this failure is reflected in it’s structure and what they do and say and act like
That would be another of my Luther like ‘objections’ to be pinned on the door keep in mind I AM a ‘believer’ I do not attempt to throw away the ‘spirit’ my objections are to LA as Luther’s was to Rome you might say………….the PI in practice encourages dependency, to me every effort should be made to empower people WHEREVER they are to be able to live feeling lives. That could be done in many ways including using the computer world more effectively. Instead we have a pretty old fashioned ‘you come to us we don’t come to you’………………….pretty much Janov’s MO from the beginning. From way back he had this thing of saying “Welcome” is all these different languages………….welcome as in leave your own land and come to me. More like “Welcome to my Nightmare” truly. Even Larry you say yourself you seem to suffer from that syndrome quite a bit. The idea that there are ‘angels’ in the form of therapists or whatever in Los Angeles is a very vain hope in my opinion. They are only people you can find better or worse people anywhere.
Of course there is also a ‘business model’ going on here and to ‘our’ detriment as it always was. Another of my ‘objections’ would be the PI should in principle try to put itself out of business. I don’t even think they do it for the money anyway they have made their money at this point if someone was far seeing enough they would I think do exactly that – put themselves out of business. But with Janov at least ‘business’ was always a huge part of it. Another reason and possibly one of the main one it has gone so badly wrong. It ‘results’ are shockingly poor as it is often brought home to me when I have some actual ‘dealings’ with primallers. As I said before the average and I stress average Irish person and I am sure others I am only speaking of what I know can ‘conflict solve’ or ‘get over’ things way better than primallers who seem literally stuck in place. A time warp culturally and historically and also a personal time warp for people themselves. I guess time warps can be fun in a kind of narcissistic way but as far as ‘healing’ and ‘growth’ and the other words thrown around “not so much” as Borat says…………
I’d forgotten this fabulous song.
Extremely well expressed Patrick. I don’t know Dr. Janov. His body of work is magnificent, and he keeps on trucking when he could be anywhere, feet up, sipping tropical juices. My belief is that he is a decent guy.
I have agreed before that I think it is a travesty that Primal Therapy is not a choice in every clinic.
That breakout should have been fostered by the founders. In 2008 Doctor Janov wrote in his newsletter on ” Deviations and Aberrations of Primal Therapy.” All of his caveats are I think impeccably well founded. But any argument can be used as a brick wall or a challenge to be overcome. I’m not smart enough to figure that out the solution. My best male friend, decent human, and highly educated and trained psychotherapist believes unequivocally that the charlatans and incomptetents would have weeded out and the cream of therapists risen to the top. I trust him unequivocally. In the process patients would have been hurt. For drop outs old defences get reestablished.
Potential patients are hurt because of the lack of accessible availability. I do know 45 years later Primal is a best kept secret and mocked. That is a horrible outcome.
You say there is none but there is control here Patrick. It is self control.
That’s true enough Larry………..but that is asking me to be the way I HAD to be as a child like constant self control……………I thought this was different I mean it was supposed to be different but I get it that is only as an IDEA…………….in practice it is mostly the same old shit but actually worse because it is now overladen by a quite hypocritical (in practice) ‘idea’ So primallers are mostly just worse off than the ‘average’ person…………….not in theory but in practice yes mostly……………haven’t you noticed……………I have and see it all the time……………
Patrick, extremely well written. Very moving .I hope Larry is neutral when he responds. I wonder where Jack, and others, would go with,” it,” if you chose not to visibly respond to
crap and simply wrote about your self generated stuff.
I had a supervisor, 30 years into my career, who absolutely hated me. We had been, ” good friends,” in Social Work School. He wasn’t academically cable of handling the course load and would say he would have never graduated if not for my help. That all changed later on. I think it was his drinking and womanizing and he imagined because I was a straight arrow that I saw him as flawed. Or maybe that I knew these things about him. .. The start of it coincided with my daughter’s death and my promotion to Senior Western Provincial Region Social Worker, which I had never applied for. Or, whatever…..
He was intent to drive me out. And he was politically connected. First, I tried telling myself it was his problem, he was sneaky and destructive and volatile and since he had massacred our old friendship he was unimportant personally and I would, ” choose,” not to let it bother me. You know the, ” not owning it,” ” STRATEGY.” That works fine for someone I interact with occasionally, but I had this prick in my face daily.
I tried several things including insulting him when he attacked me in private, often subtly so it would only hit him later, and his hatred would become so palpable he sometimes made a fool of himself. He was also athletic and very good looking and suave with the ladies. That had a charming affect on many of our female staff . Nothing worked.
I finally fell on writing an email to him whenever he was pushing my buttons in which I unloaded all of the most vile anger I could muster up. Then I read it until ,and when, it had worked it’s magic, and my volatility and vulnerability had passed, I then hit, “DELETE.” I started taking clients/patients in to visit him, and say I knew how well he followed casework, ( which he couldn’t,) and would he have any comments or suggestions. The fool would end up complementing me on my ability and performance in the presence of clients and board members. He’d then say to me in passing in the corridor that I thought I was being, ” so fucking clever….” I’d ask what he meant with a quizzical blank face.
From our brief conversations I think I see some ways in which you and I are alike. ( Being successful in money making is not one !!! hah I used to give my excess income away when I was in LA. Now thanks to the Canada Life pension manager raping my retirement account, via,” frequent trading,” I’m a bloody pauper. )
But, when I sense I’m in , ” real trouble,” being used unfairly, being discarded, used, kicked out. cheated on, I can go through a cycle, pissed off, saying too much, too badly; then apologizing, begging, trying harder, struggling, ” explaining,”get depressed, and repeat all of the foregoing, all to try to get back in. I know it made me look silly, even crazy. And it’s like throwing a bleeding chicken out on the manure pile, the carrion close in. And I know that mantra was created in my family of origin.
The closest I ever came to being physically violent was when I kicked the rear quarter panel of a car one of my now ex wife’s boyfriends loaned her so she could screw off with him for a long weekend. The big boy thing would have been to have divorced her and written, ” FUCK YOU,” in my permanent memory, because she is poison. And raised my kids by myself.
From experience I learned that the worst thing I can do with an attacker is to apologize if I get drawn into responding. While it would be fine with someone who truly loves me it makes me appear weak in any other situation, and invites them to continue the attack. When I resist responding I found they burn themselves out and usually end up exposing their hand and looking badly.
I feel for you, Patrick. It must hurt terribly.
I’ve been in a situation with my oldest daughter for several years now. I believed that she would come around and apologize and ask for another chance. WE were best buds. So far she has not found the strength to do so. And continuing feeling guilty and embarrassed she pretends to be the one wronged. So I don’t get to see those grandchildren, including my 9 year old grandson who once lived with me and idolized me. That’s what set it off, he spontaneously confronted his mother, based on the difference of living with me and her, with not being a good parent and that she was selfish and a liar. My ex wife, who has always bullied our daughter, jumped on that like a bear on honey and started a holy war against me. When my ex and her current husband lost their business, I fed them, for nearly a year, bought his cardiac meds, put gas in their car.
Friends who know the situation and how it hurts me, say things like, it’s her loss, move on, let it go… But I’ve loved her since she was a kick in her mom’s belly. I miss them. I love my kids more than my own life. There’s nothing I can do to change it.
David
I feel a need to be clear here. When I wrote about my daughter not apologizing I don’t need an apology, but believe she needs to to regain her power and self respect.
I like a lot of what this guy Jon Rappoport says. Quote below.
“These inventions (drugs and medical interventions) attack a vulnerability summed up by people who say to themselves, ‘Maybe there’s something wrong with me that I don’t know about.’
The vulnerability increases, because the individual is forgetting he has an independent existence. As this amnesia sets in, what takes the place of his intrinsic confidence? A general sense of dependency.
Here’s the dependency formula: ‘I need to rely on others to understand myself; I need to listen to the advice of friends and family; I need to listen to the experts; I need to belong to the group; I need to think as the group thinks; we all need to wear our disease-and-disorder diagnoses as badges of pride and honor.’
In other words, in society, we have a complete reversal of what constitutes pride and honor. Under the guise of showing ‘sympathy for the afflicted,’ a massive psyop is underway to promote the notion that we are all afflicted and confessing to it is good thing”.
Finally feelings about being back home after the retreat coalesced into a cry. Like happened many times in LA and at the retreat, I awoke in the night and lay restless, my breathing shallow, my mind racing, a time of the day when my defences are weakest. I got up and put on some music. Bruce Springsteen’s ‘Philadelphia’ did it for me, in particular the line ‘No angel is going to greet me…..It’s just you and I my friend.’
Years ago I’ve written how the therapists feel to me like angels hovering nearby, trying to help but not intervening, shedding some light on the dark scary path I need to take, helping me to feel a little brave to confront the monsters in the dark.
After the intense feeling of support and connection at the retreat, what’s hard about being back home is there are no angels to greet me. It’s just me, my life and friends. In childhood there should be the feeling of loving parents hovering, guiding, watching out for me. There was nothing. Just me growing up needing them but alone. That’s the feeling and the truth I see and accept more and more, a little at a time, how sadly that because of their sickness there was no one for me. God how hard to grow up alone.
I think sometimes and more so lately of retiring to the place I grew up, near family and a few long term friends there. It feels like a better base from which to grow my life in retirement than from my current home.600 miles away. Something always bothered me about going back though, and this morning in my crying I realized that returning home really hits home that there will be no angels, and never were any loving parents, to greet me.
If I want angels hovering nearby, I’d have to move to LA I think.
You write so clearly, Larry. Feel wiser reading your posts and renews my faith in trusting feelings. I agree the blog is a fragile place.
S
That is nice of you to say, Sylvia. Thank you. Have we ever met? How odd to have these exchanges with strangers.
Hi Larry. No we’ve never met. Have not had formal therapy. I’ve read here a couple of years and braved contributing a year ago when Gretchen was welcoming to non-group people. In my search for like-minded people who didn’t push their feelings down it was very reaffirming; a port in the storm. I’ve learned from everyone here. In or out of group we have to do the work ourselves. This has served as a type of group touchstone for me and a map or guide of sorts. It is odd to share with strangers but I’ve come to care about the group as if we were friends.
True enough, we have to do the work ourselves. How brave of you to contribute. I wish we could all live near to each other. When people don’t write here for a while, I miss them as I would friends who move away. It’s nice that you write and I’m glad you find this group helpful. I guess we all find this group helpful, that being why we keep coming back and participating here.
Speaking of Los Angeles this is a cool song I put it on before so I just put on the words here. It’s about a singer/songwriter trying to make it in LA but it could be lots of different things. I like the idea of devils in this angel town. Is Janov a ‘devil’ in some ways I would say yes he is………….so Larry don’t sell your soul to the devil you know that never ends well…………….
She grew up with
The children of the stars
In the hollywood hills and the boulevard
Her parents threw big parties
Everyone was there
They hung out with folks like
Dennis hopper, bob seeger, sonny and cher
Now, she feels safe
In this bar on fairfax
And from the stage I can tell that
She can’t let go and she can’t relax
And just before
She hangs her head to cry
I sing to her a lullaby, I sing
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Rockabye
She still lives with her mom
Outside the city
Down that street about a half a mile
And all her friends tell her
She’s so pretty
But she’d be a whole lot prettier
If she smiled once in a while
’cause even her smile
Looks like a frown
She’s seen her share of devils
In this angel town
But, everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Rockabye
I told her I ain’t so sure
About this place
It’s hard to play a gig in this town
And keep a straight face
Seems like everyone here’s got a plan
It’s kind of like nashville with a tan, but,
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye
Everything’s gonna be all right
Rockabye, rockabye, rockabye, bye, bye
Bye, bye
> Patrick,
> may I suggest you reread calmly the comment in which I recall us talking about the subject of virtually discarding people off a virtual list of being of interest?
> I did not say you discarded me, we were simply discussing the probability of it having happened in case you would just have spotted me at a retreat and never have gotten to know me better, by lack of opportunity or initiative, compared to the real situation we were in of staying in a house together and spending a lot of time together.
>
> it was, I repeat a very friendly conversation in which there was enough openness to ask you how you would have mentally ‘labelled’ me in case of only superficial encounters. the topic also adressing the labelling we all tend to do, often misguided, of people on a first impressio
> for myself I still need to be vigilant as it is clear first impressions are very prone to be coloured by old feelings, our fears colouring them in my case with possible rejection of me, and therefor, until they smile at me or say something nice, tending to ‘paint’ them mentally as stupid and uninteresting/uninterested’…
>
> so in that line of conversation my question to you was if I would have been one of what you referred to as well, let me parafrase you, sorry if it is not giving credit to the more balanced kind of conversation we had back then, but ore or less what you referred to as a group of primal losers and weaklings
>
> the mere impression of being a sorry disabled person or better said possibly looking like one for the casual observer, can easily put me in that category for a lot of people.
>
> so as you were already talking about some of your expectations and prejudices quite openly, it was actually very good you confirmed you might have probably indeed put me in the category of sorry losers, and the next line of conversation was more or less ‘mistakenly so, smiley’..
>
> so maybe if you read this carefully, you see my message is not one of criticism or rejection, but a memory of how there used to be a real openess then.
>
> for the current situation on the blog, the best thing I feel like saying is it always takes two to tango.
> and another cliché that contains a lot of truth is ‘what you give is what you get’..
>
> even from Jack you have received positive feedback several times on this blog, always when you just talked in an open way about your own feelings instead of focusing on what is wrong with someone else.
>
> well, I rest my case, feel I have repeated myself more than enough already..
> M
Margaret – that’s fine it all sounds true even if I don’t specifically remember the conversation I have no more issues about that. And actually I kind of do remember it the way you say
It’s true Jack has been ‘nice’ to me or ‘supportive’ once in a while and even though for sure that is better than being mocked and harassed……………..still and I don’t want to be churlish about it……………it feels almost a bit I dunno almost ‘creepy’. Maybe that’s not quite the right word (too strong) but it’s like I am ‘praised’ for that and ‘condemned’ for most everything else I say and do.
Just writing about it now it reminds me how I was ‘valued’ for my so called brain, my Dad kind of set me up as his little ‘genius’ who could or might do a lot of the things he wanted to do. And like with Jack I don’t want to be churlish about that either, I ‘loved’ my Dad very much and would do anything to please him or ‘pay him back’ as I saw it for being my protector in some very rough situations. But it’s a problem if I was only loved for one thing there was of course so much more to me which was not valued hardly at all.
And that is a feeling I get from a situation like that………………there is a LOT to me I am interested in a lot of things. The fact I cry sometimes or might or whatever is just one small part of me. I am me when finding out about vaccines or the origin of life or anything I am interested in or care about. And there is quite a lot sorry to repeat that I am interested in. . So if someone ‘loves’ me for example here being ‘able’ to cry it does not feel good. I mean it does feel good in a way for itself but if then the other 95% of me is rejected as a ‘head trip’ or whatever…………….It’s like some weird inversion of the situation with my Dad………….he ‘loved’ me for my brain here I am hated because of my brain. Why can’t I be accepted for what I am and all aspects. None is better or more privileged than another as I like to say “it’s all good” or ideally it would be.
> Sylvia, haha, always regarded Chicke as quite smart really!
>
> do they also start to hiss like the geese do?
> and attack from behind??
>
> once I heard an interesting explanation giving away some of the secrets of chicken language, which I observed with our own chickens and appeared to be true:
> they have two similar, but still different combinations of sounds, one is the long plok at the start, the other with the long ploook at the end, so there is ploooookplokplokplokplok and there is plokplokplokplokploooook, and one, forgot which, means ‘I am about to lay an egg’ and the other is ‘ok I am done’, which gives the other chickens two different lues as to their behavior with regard of possible predators and staying close, or moving on or whatever…
>
> you should hear the way my screenreader did a good job at pronouncing those ploks, hahaha!!!
>
> they also have a kind of plook which makes all the fluffy little ones race to hide under her wings for protection, and I am sure some other ploooks as well for other stuff, chicken talk..
>
> crows so far have been checked as to have at least 50 different kinds of ‘kraaa’ all specifically meaning stuff like ‘human’, airplane’, ‘eagle’ or ‘dead meat, yummie’ for example.
>
> so far I only know ‘danger’ and ‘all clear’, which are short ‘ka’s’, or longer ‘kaaaa’s’.
>
> find that kind of stuff fascinating..
> M
> David, that is so sad,the storu about your daughter and not being able to see your grandchildren..
>
> I apologize in advance as maybe what I will say is not in place, but I am raised as a caretaker, so well, I accept the option of this being maybe unwelcome advice..
>
> but you seem very good at expressing your love, in a very touching way, so I wondered if you tried to send her a lettter or an e-mail telling her how much you love her and how much you miss her and her children.. maybe you have done so already, and probably also already said you feel sorry about being on bad terms, but well, maybe it helps trying again and being the parent once more in some way..
>
> in any case I truely hope things get right again between you or at least that you can see the grandkids again, otherwise it is so awfully sad..
> M
Thank you, Margaret. I’ve tried everything. No way to understand the ongoing recalcitrance. Her mother convinced her that I put the words in my grandson’s mouth. All I can try now is time as a healer. I wave when we pass on the highway; and speak in stores, don’t have her email address; she won’t answer Facebook messages, but, hasn’t blocked me. So she ignores me. WE were bonded at the hip. When she was feeling threatened by her son confronting her she told a number of friends what a horrible guy I am. Before that I was superior human of the millennium. She has never been good at backing down. I’ve told her I hold no ill feelings, that I love her.
Yeah, Margaret, caretaker; me, too. And defender of the underdog and wrongly treated. I used to joke that I raised my mother to the best of my ability. I’m really much better; don’t feel compelled much to look after people anymore. After my time in LA I found it was not as exhausting in my work, while at the same time I was more comfortable wading in deeper with patients’ feelings. Theirs weren’t always pulling on my own and I better recognized when they did. Tough job learning how to become a person on my own; as Virginia Satir used to say, “an actualized person, ” ha;so many words.
david
David said “I used to joke that I raised my mother to the best of my ability”……….that’s pretty funny did you think of that yourself…………..I could see it somewhere in a comedy act.
It’s mine, all mine , ya big oaf; copyrighted, the seal kissed by the Queen,,,,
Actually it came out spontaneously, Patrick, when representing a young lad to a school that didn’t want him. The principal said he had personal problems too but he didn’t use the story to garner special favours. Rather than strangle the fool I said, “.. this boy raised his mother to the best of his ability until he was four, when she crawled inside a pill bottle, and never came out. And then has raised himself ever since. Did you have to do that, John ?”
I threatened to go to the media, so he gave the 17 year old illiterate a try at Grade 10, week by week review. Three years later he achieved a Grade 12, 25 credit Academic pass, and went on to University.. And what a pain in the ass he is. I warn you don’t ever do anything above work to rule for anyone. They get used to being used like someone that matters and your life is over…. Is an LOL really necessary here ?? Great kid.
> David,
> that resonates so strongly with me, ‘I raised my mother at the best of my ability’, sure rings a bell loud and clear.
>
> funny but a lot of pain involved there too.
> specially now that she is really losing more and more of her capacities, and therefor finally really starting to need to be taken care of to some degree..
> that trigggers a lot of old stuff.
>
> luckily it also brought me and my brother a lot closer together and that brings the tension level down to a degree where we manage to let the compassion and tenderness and love prevail over the irritation and impatiense,m and on the moments one of us gets close to losing patience the other one takes over.
>
> it also helps to be able to talk about it with him.
>
> now finally our mom is starting to bring up the option of a nursing home herself, so next week we will go look at one together.
>
> might make her change her mind again, will see..
> M
Raising Momma: that resonates with me too, Margaret and David. When I was a kid I could see how much my mom was hurting. As a girl with several boys in the family I sometimes felt that I was in a unique situation to understand her. I was sensitive too and easily hurt. But of course my brothers felt her pain too and maybe I didn’t appreciate how much so. A few months ago I was discussing with my brother how Mom used to always say she was going to leave because everything was just too much for her and no one understood her. I told her I would go with her (though I loved my dad, she was the one to do the daily things to take care of us and I didn’t want to lose her.) She never left. My brother said he remembered it well and that he had put her favorite candy bar on the front seat of the car so she would have something she liked when she left. We were about 8 and 10yrs.
I’m particularly moved by your account of your brother putting he favourite candy bar on the car seat for her. What kind people we were before being messed with. The raising mom thing is so manipulative, at least in my case; implants a lot of fears, guilt, and other feelings.
“When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.” (Lao Tzu)
———————————————————–
Not sure about the quote above – I just liked it! 🙂
At this retreat I started to discover just how much I have segregated a myriad of aspects of my life. How I have segregated people out for certain roles; those people for solely one purpose. Or specific places for certain requirements, school or home or my room. I begin to realise how even the thought of ‘mixing’ (what to me would be) ‘incompatible’ aspects of my life would jarr [sp] me. A laughable aspect would be how I can’t bear certain foods to touch, for example. Or god forbid – that family would want to meet friends!!
It is not only a conscious device that I have cultivated to anchor some semblance of safety in my life from a young age, but it is also manifested physically by my body too. I will not give examples – but those of you who know me – know why – and wont ask here.
I think my shock is that I believed that only my brain had segregated ‘life’ into manageable chunks … but my body and its ‘automatic’ responses and ‘systems’ are included in the ‘control’ I exerted on myself.
How scary – that a young child can learn to control aspects of a ‘seemingly’ untouchable part of themselves, but I did/do just that. The little me learned early to control a couple of aspects of my autonomic nervous system. Go me! But poor me that felt I HAD to do that!
This is all a bit new – and I am still craving the company and support I get from the retreats.
Seeing some goooooooood friends comment on here and with the email banter and skype etc that goes on behind the scenes too, well… it has spurred me to spew my bit on here.
It will not last…
As you describe it the compartmentalization sounds like a useful device Fiona, and an interesting revelation for you.
I was, or tried to be, in a relationship once with a compartmentalized woman. That was a marathon. She was, intrigued, ” grateful,” exuberant, and then totally freaked out as she gained the trust to allow me, the first person, she said, to see, to know, all of her, declaring I was her soul mate. Then she threw up the barricade and fled.
It’s great to hear from you here, Fiona. I hope that’s not a threat that spewing your bit won’t last.
It’s sure shocking sometimes to realize the extent to which our coping mechanisms extend into our lives.
Hi Fiona!
So good to see you here! Please stay…
Your insights are really something! it is unbelievable what the mind/body connection can do!
ox L.
Glad you wrote, Fiona
xo
Vicki,
You invited me to expand on as comment I made about being bullied up to the age of 15. Thank you for doing this: It was a caring invitation.
I have been off the blog for a few days, mainly because I had a session with Barry on Monday. I first told him I was back on the blog and talked about my interaction with David. I then told him I was anxious because I had asked Patrick a few direct questions (he had not replied at that stage). I talked about other stuff: I had buddied on Sunday so that saved some time in the session, as I was closer to feelings. Barry came back to my interaction with David: he thought there was anxiety around this interaction. I was not sure of the cause/effect here. He told me that I was usually anxious but it was particularly prominent that day.
At the end of the session he said that my anxiety was childhood fear filtered through my cortex, and that I had to keep several “plates spinning” to deal with it,
Since then i have tried to be aware of the fear beneath my daily anxieties: a routine doctor’s visit or someone mentioning to me they need to go over stuff at work with me. These are typical of the spinning plates. Minor and inconsequential things in reality, but my mind seems to seek and cling to things to be anxious about so the fear can be processed/acted out/defended against.
I was aware yesterday of how horrible a way this is to live. This aweful fear underpinning everything. There is an inherent sense of isolation that sometimes even interaction with others cannot quell. A part of the feeling is that is that they cannot protect me from every potential aweful thing,
I have an early and deep fear, and this contributed to being picked on later on (kids who want to bully will hone in on those too afraid to defend themselves). This lead to more fear and anxiety.
I will see how this unfolds.
Donal
I hope you are eventually able to get to that early and deep fear, Donal, and less anxiety.
Thanks for writing that, Donal — it’s getting to know you a bit better. “kids who want to bully will hone in on those too afraid to defend themselves” rings, as I often find myself struggling to defend myself, even to remember the truth of the situation, when attacked by a bully. I’m so afraid, I start to cave in apologetically, then if I allow more time, suddenly I realize — wait a minute, what about this, and that — and then realize how afraid I was, I was going to ‘give it away’, give away my rights as a human to be treated like a person.
It’s like we give off a signal. Odd, I practiced Shotokan Karate for over 20 years; no Bruce Lee; but, I was in an agricultural exhibition beer tent one night when a fight broke out. It quickly became wild west style, so I left; just ambled though the brawlers. No one tried to engage me and I didn’t touch anyone. Reflecting on it after, I thought that my being unafraid and having no desire to be involved that I didn’t look like a victim nor a combatant.
This isn’t in response to any post, but the new page 3 doesn’t seem to have a simply.” Comment,” selection. I don’t understand why but I really had to force myself to post this. Maybe that old , won’t be believed thing. I don’t know. Was watching Mash TV rerun. ” Major Winchester, ” was showing an uncharacteristic, human side. Something triggered a feeling. I’ve always been aware of the scene in a pictural/intellectual recall way. This time was the first time I felt it. The terror, me rocking, begging, I’m sorry, promising to be a better boy. Finally she says ok she won’t drown herself, and I take her hand and lead her home. She has a weird small smile.The feeling is almost erotic, elated, my mom isn’t going to leave me. The suffocating sobs came from the bottom of me. Had to get out of the feeling I hurt so physically. Scared to post this.
I know those scared feelings: Momma is going to leave.
Very deep pain David, total body, all encompassing for you.
The feeling that I am dying.
Hi
I’ve been trying to figure out what’s going on with me, since the retreat and my return to OZ.
Slowly, I am starting to realise that I’m suffering from the same old feelings of neglect. Not bonding with my mum. Not feeling connected to my mum.
At night, when I get into bed, I make sure I wrap the blankets around me, virtually swaddling myself, thereby comforting myself, trying to put myself to sleep.
Is this all there is to my life? Searching for the missed comforting, for ever?
Can’t I have a life, now? Will nothing else do?
Mummmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
whoa… that’s triggering me big time
There is silence here at home in contrast to my three weeks in LA.
It’s unnerving, and sometimes throws me back to my childhood painful aloneness.
I have much to do to make each day fulfil me, and find a way of bringing more people into my life.
Meanwhile, I reflect this morning on a vision which sits in my mind, which I may paint…of the dining area against the background trees at La Casa, full of us lot eating, interacting, animated. And remembering excitement, with acute anxiety, the drive up El Bosque road the first time years ago, the impact of seeing the grounds of La Casa with the oak trees.
Trees mean a lot to me, have so many memories attached. In my childhood garden, solid, rooted, cover for wildlife, changing with the seasons, climb, pick fruit from, sit under and lean on, break sticks and bark from, somewhere at school to climb up, escape and feel free.
I’m glad you wrote this Jo. The silence compared to our time in LA is disturbing. Being at work takes my mind off it but isn’t a solution. I put in a 14 hour work day today, in the field with my summer student help and a post doc. It took my mind off the silence, but didn’t grow my life. I may be this busy one day a week until the end of September. Too much of my time and energy goes into work, not enough left for growing my life. I need to change the balance. After September I’ll start working less. More and more I want to retire and have other life experience, but I dread the silence I anticipate.
> Donal,
> your comment about anxiety resonates so strongly with me.
> thanks for expanding on that, it really shed some light on what goes on for me as well.
>
> I know that ‘searching’ for what to be anxious about, sometimes Icatch myself imagining things in the future that might possibly happen and what I should do about it in that case, to then get a hold on myself and put a stop to it as it is clearly not something in reality (yet) to be concerned about.
>
> I seem to be scanning all the time what I should ‘control’, the fear is always present, more prominently so the last two years.
>
> as you say, finding stuff to hook it on seems to be a way to try to keep it under control..
>
> it is indeed an awful way to live but well, until more of the fear gets processed there is little choice but to do stuff regardless of being scared, not always possible, it makes me cancel stuff..
>
> fear seems so hard to deal with, other feelings can be worked with in some way to process them, sadness gets resolved bit by bit by crying, horrible as it may be, anger gets resolved by expressing it and getting to the underlying sadness, need can be expressed and felt, which of course does not always make it go away but still, but fear, ha!!
>
> nightmares seem my best way in to the overwhelming intensity of the feeling, but there is indeed something very isolated about it, feel close to tears right now..
> M
> Jo,it is a nice idea to picture you up in a tree as a little girl.
> i also love trees, loved to climb them, despite my dad disapproving of me being ‘just like a boy’…
>
> my very first spontaneous primal feeling that took me by surprise, was ‘I am a girl!!!!’
>
> M
I need some reality here!
Donal you asked Patrick good questions that continue to be ignored.
Margaret – why do you accept so little and think you have a friend. Patrick “throws you under the bus” so fast and furiously so often. Your patience and kindness shine through as you try to calmly placate him after he has just called you “a fucking liar!”. We knew you hadn’t lied, and in fact when Patrick realizes that, he counters – “Yes, I will let the whole thing go” !
You deserve so much more Margaret. You are the one that can get further with why for this & all the other times, (both past and recent) of his hurtful rants that you still go back for more. Patrick cannot and will not change as he so often says he is doing just fine – even better than any of us!
Yes, Patrick who can do better than Janov, better than Obama and so many others – however never does a thing beyond his arm chair critiquing and ranting. Whose hatred of Jews, gays, overweight people etc.etc. spills over continuously. Its all here on the blog – not hard to find.
And then an actual ‘in person’ verbal assault happens to Vicki – please re-read what Patrick shouted if you need to – and Patrick wants to tell his side of it. No – there is no your side here Patrick.
David – you have said you relate to the underdog but this is not an underdog story. This is a very sick person making places unsafe. It should not be condoned & therefore encouraged.
My dad – a pseudo intellectual also, who hid behind it all successfully in many facets of society worked so hard to convince us and everyone else of his superiority. A deeply damaged man underneath for sure – suffering from undiagnosed mental illness in fact – who destroyed us. It is that tragic mess that I see in my sister and brothers’ emotional lives and my life too that we are still scrambling to right – that hurts so much. We needed him to be removed, and he needed that boundary set too.
Leslie, very well said and very real. I can see why this has struck such a chord in you in how you describe your dad, and know first hand how such damage is far reaching.
Here in present time I’ve also disgustedly witnessed the poison and unacceptable destructive behaviour.
I don’t have Barry or Gretchen’s unique skills, or your gift of articulating this situation clearly, and although I haven’t remotely wanted to engage with this particular toxicity..I’ve been privately and deeply appalled.
Margaret, it has seemed odd to me that you come back for more..
Leslie – that’s quite a tour de force. Good for you.
I have to admit, it makes me uncomfortable the way Margaret appeases Patrick, like the way a bruised girlfriend/wife still strives to see the best in her abusive boyfriend/husband.
Larry,
Hopefully I can get free of it……Barry seems to have little doubt that I will. Seems unbelievable to me but comforting that he is confident.
I felt good today…..the doctor’s visit went fine…..none of my anxieties came to fruition. But the appointment was last thing today, Even before that I felt good so could deal so the anxiety was mainly just this sort of nervous anticipation that things would be fine, Plus, I felt strong at work dealing with people and situations in a balanced but direct way,
Feelings take a strange course sometimes…….
It occurs to me that I rarely cry or get into a feeling (“primalling” as some may say) at least in the discrete way others seem to be able to. This used to bother me, but I rarely even think about it anymore.
It used to make me feel left out, a bit of a failure in primal terms but I really don’t care. anymore….P still feel I am making progress, Ay one point when I worried about never crying, Mark pointed out to me that my life was getting better, He opined that surely this was the goal to therapy, not having feelings…..
Donal.
I wouldn’t worry about it Donal – ‘wanting’ to cry or ‘trying’ to cry is probably one of the worst aspects/outcomes of primal therapy, what Janov in his latest blog though maybe he means it is a slightly different way calls a ‘neurosis within a neurosis’ and he should know he has probably seen lots of it
Quote: ” It becomes a neurosis inside another neurosis” I like that it’s a nice turn of phrase though a turn of phrase was never his problem……………..THAT he could always do…………
I’m glad you feel you are making progress, Donal. I’m glad you don’t feel you are a failure. Seems to me you have a lot of insight. But the fear to deal with.
Jo and Tom: leaving Primal after the retreat has brought up feelings in you both. I wonder if it echoes something in your pasts: the pain of detaching from people . Attachment is such a critical thing to a young child: detachment of the failure of a mother to attach can be so damaging, I remember doing a research project on attachment theory in school. It was painful to learn of how critical attachment is prior to age 2….I was acutely aware that I never bonded with my mother. More correctly, my mother could not create the bond with me that every child needs at such a basic level.
The thoughts of how much damage that did to me were overwhelming,
Donal
Donal, I was told that I was put in hospital at 18 months, and I have a scene of that but haven’t fully accessed it…no mummy or daddy visiting or staying over in those days. Same deal at 4 years, and again at 6. Boarding school the last straw.
I described my early years to my buddy this retreat, where I and my brother were put out in the garden to play for hours. Hence my early relationship with trees (plus certain flowers, dogs). He said “it sounds idyllic”, and in many ways it was, but I have accessed how alone and unwanted I felt, even before the school event.
Recreating my past – aloneness/abandonment/yearning for a garden/dog//”people” is steeped in me, in my face all the time, relentless.
Oh yes, I am so thankful for the primal process, to have some real Jo back, and have the gift of peaceful, joyful and rewarding moments.
Hi Margaret,
Sorry I have not responded to your post to me from the weekend. I have been busy and am on the blog for short spurts only. To answer your question, I am still trying to change my career yo psych…..I am looking at classes in the fall to work towards licensing, I got promoted in my current career, so was acclimating at that over the last year, My goal this year is to leave my current job with a lot accomplished and then transition.
Donal.
Patrick,
I read Art Janov’s article that you mentioned: very good explanation of abreaction in the context of primal therapy. A little alarming at how destructive and urreversible it can be: I always thought it would be possible for a person to stop and get on the right track relatively easily, but it would seem not,
I have often seen people have dramatic feelings, but sometime it seems off, They are too much in control or have a pre-conceived notion of how they will feel the feeling they arrive to group in, A lot of the time I got into stuff it has a life of its own: often ot goes somewhere I could not have predicted.
DOnal
Yes Donal I found it very interesting. About a year ago a good friend of mine and someone I consider very ‘smart’ (he has been through primal) said the whole ‘fetish of crying’ was silly and got a person nowhere. I sort of did not want to hear that but because I really respect him I listened and for me at least it is an important lesson/message. A ‘life of it’s own’ is a good phrase if we are ‘neurotic’ by definition we don’t know what is driving us so it makes sense to ‘listen’ without pre conceived notions…………
I can think of a lot of reasons I forced, thought about, created, wanted, the scene I felt or thought I about. Back here, on my own, no one to impress, perform for, or whatever, I would tell myself out loud to stop thinking. I’d get really pissed with myself. For me it worked and I at least stopped thinking. Now it’s a feeling that leads me to a scene, or doesn’t. At the end I still often cry for myself, what I lost, can never have. I think that’s valid. For the longest time it was connected I think to shifting to sadness, the safest, easiest thing for me to feel, or just crying away what I started feeling.
Just had a flash of going to write, ” because no one else gives a shit, ” but recognize it’s manipulative, ” feel sorry for me, ” thing.
I read Dr. Janov’s latest blog entry after reading your comments; and, unwisely, just before bed. I am familiar with abreaction, but the negatives began, one more thing to fear; maybe it’s best to suffer rather the try to feel on one’s own and make it worse, or with a non certified therapist, on and on…. Woke sometime, me and bed linens soaked, terrified, primal blog pages so faint I strain to read, then realize I’m inventing the body of each entry; and a far away voice saying, ” You wrote here earlier about your ex wife and I’m here to say I know something about that and you’re, a fucking liar……..”
I’ve lost again. So much for being honest, kind, loving, I’ll never get it right. Just a fuck up; no wonder mom tried to kill me. Fuck it. I’ll cry for me if I want. I’m all I’ve got. All I ever had.
David, you know who “no one else gives a shit…” is, right?!
I can relate to your first paragraph … in the sense that before a session, individual or group, I envisaged the feeling, how it would go, but more often than not that wasn’t it, a weird way of defending I suppose ( in my case)
Hey, Jo; Could you flesh this out a bit more for my aging brain… hah thanks, dave
Weird, not that many, “Jo’s,” about. I had a cousin, ” Jo,” for Josephine, who died when I was 12. I adored her. Every time I see your name in print, I feel a glow, and sometimes a bit sad, and see her kind face in my mind’s eye.
Dave, glad you get a warm glow when you see my name in print, and that you adored your cousin…soooo cute, soooosad to lose her when you were 12..
Thank you , Jo. Would you be so kind as to explain your comment to me on my post. Thanks, Dave
Dave, i wondered if the “no one” you referred to meant someone in the past.
* * *
Re-reading your 7.38 post, I think I misinterpreted what you said, but it reminded me somehow of the fact that at times I have a dialogue going on in my head of what think I need to talk about with Barry or Gretchen in a session or at group, and sometimes it was a sort of safer option than facing something more painful.
Just once I appeared at the PI, unscheduled, really fucked up, in a huge emotional crisis, I was dying, sheer panic, couldn’t breathe, rocking incessantly, itching, scratching, sweating. I was allowed to go down to a private room. As I laid on the floor engulfed in/by the feeling, all of a sudden I had the thought that I could crawl up the wall like a fly. That caused my gaze to veer upwards and suddenly I saw me, 4 years old, wearing carpenter overalls, in the point where one wall met the other looking down at me. I heard in my head that he was still with me, but that I had to stop acting like a child. I don’t remember what followed but I know I was mightily impressed with the significance of the event, ” I had arrived,”; and got caught up in that. My therapist arrived I told him my experience and he commented, ” It would be good if you could wait for me next time.” That response sparks quite a bit of humour in me now. And I don’t mean that in any sarcastic way.
Nothing terrified me more than to be asked what I was feeling, because I would go blank; or so I thought but I know now it was triggering being beaten again after an original beating for not admitting knowing what I had done wrong or why I had done the thing I was being beaten for. ” Don’t lie to me, ” You know.” Often I was being , ” helped,” by her, ” beating the devil, ” out of me.
I’d have been better off if she had killed me the first time she tried. Anti abortionists don’t have a clue. Anti euthanasia proponents don’t have a clue. Death isn’t the worst outcome.
How does one survive such treatment….
But we do survive. We’re living proof, aren’t we ?? And that reality is one I shared with others when there was really noting else to give them on which to draw strength to continue choosing, ” alive;” that we survived at a time in our development we were less prepared to do so. Barry once wrote me, ” That which doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.” I was at the disadvantage of not being able to see his face. He has a wicked sense of humour, so he may have been grinning. And that sentiment/adage is hardly original. It broke me up, saying out loud to myself, ” Barry that is so fucking cliche, ” while laughing my ass off. There is obvious truth there, too, of course. But really, Barry has better stuff than that in his repertoire catalogue…
Jedd Clampett line, ” That fella just put a grinnin’ onto you, Jethro.”
I went to every session a blank canvas; a dummy; sometimes the urge took over to perform I think, to be the # 1 student, most loved boy. I’d get pissed, feel a failure when some new patient got held up in group by a therapist as someone who was really doing super at Primal. An important person, who the therapists liked because he was going to be a great success. And I’d watch that chosen, worthy, exalted, aryan, adonis, or goddess, bask in all of that warm recommendation, nodding her/his head in acknowledgement of being worthy of all of that praise of success, and first time at bat at that, and die inside. Usually young, handsome, or beautiful, and I was nothing, a failure, couldn’t do anything right, liar, making up scenes, passed on and on to , ” lesser, ” therapists because I wasn’t worth the best. I wasn’t going anywhere. No one would ever want me, pick me. I’d just be the brunt of every taunt and joke, laughed at like a retard, just like my mother said.
It’s a bit like here somehow when I read somebody pouring out their pain, and no one comments.Another report of lees pain and urgency can solicit a flood.
Thanks for the support guys 🙂
> Leslie, before I read the rest of the comments, there is a difference between behaving like a friend, or maybe even just like a person with good intentions and regarding another person as a friend.
>
> all I try to do is to bring more reality here.
> I think you jump a little too far with some of your conclusions, smiley.
> M
> Jo and Larry,
> you really seem to misinterpret me here.
> I don’t expect anything from Patrick, how can you think I regard him as my friend after all the things he said to me in the past?
>
> still, it does not mean I can’t try to help him see reality, like when he calls me a lyer it seems to be the ost constructive thing to do to point him out what truely happened and help him to remember and see how he gets carried away with his rage.
>
> aren’t we all here to help each other with unraveling our feelings?
>
> do you only say helpful things in groups to people you consider your friend?
>
> i even find what you say a bit offensive Larry, no idea you underestimated me that much.
>
> also to JO, ‘coming back for more’ well, that is not what I do either.
>
> most of Patricks rants don’t affect me that much anyway as to my feeling they contain little to no thruth about me.
>
> it does not affect me much to be called a lyer while I don’t lie, does that make sense?
> after all the only thing one needs to do then is to put out the truth with a clear conscience.
>
> well, the main thing is I feel ok myself about when I talk and what I say and what my motives are.
>
> but it does not feel pleasant to be misinterpreted like this.
>
> M
Now that ,” feels,” like group, Margaret. Wow !! well expressed. I know you don’t need anything from me, but wanted to say that.
> p.s. and Leslie, do you really think I did not notice Patrick just saying ok I let go or something similar the first time?
>
> you guys really offend me by not seeing the bigger picture.
>
> what matters to me is that wehn I wrote again Patrick did say he was starting to remember the conversation we had had again.
>
> you say you want some reality, but I feel picked on here all of a sudden for being the one that stands up most on this blog for fighting for it to remain as real as possible without just sitting back and remaining silent when the going gets tough.
>
> Leslie I must give you credit for daring to take a strong stand when I was putting up a vote in the past to get Patrick off the blog.
>
> and now you all seem to accuse me of well, beats me what, for standing my ground?
>
> I see Patrick as a person, not as a ‘friend’ or ‘enemy’, and I think you all might have reasons of your own to react the ways you do.
>
> it does hurt my feelings though, to be what feels to me misunderstood like this.
> M
Margaret – I am sorry I have hurt you. I know how well intentioned and kind you are. This is a wonderful thing – something from you to be cherished.
It is therefore hard to watch Patrick trash you (& us) again and again.
To me – Your Hope for him to change – to see reality etc. is just that – your hope, not his at all.
Hi Margaret. I thought your comments were a good attempt to set things straight and the ‘therapist’ in us likes to clarify things and make sense of our interactions that appear at first muddled. You came from a point of strength in order to clarify. I think that has always been your way here. As with watching an adept snake handler we watch with trepidation for the next bite. You are a good person who sees the best in people. Take care.
S
My experience with people who only half care about me always ends in pain for me–though I have tried, just my way– so know the feeling of trying to help. It must be ingrained in us.
It can also be the mark of someone who has developed the capacity to care for the pain of others.
That strikes me as being more evolved than the forgiveness of religious dogma.
I continue to interact with narcissistic friends, fewer and less often, and am aware of what I can expect. .
Yes David, narcissists are a breed unto their own. There are many videos on the internet on how to cope with one, because they can really do a number on you. Especially if they are part of the family or U have had a relationship with them.
As for: “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”, I think it can also: “give you ulcers.”
Recognizing them and if they are, ” friends, ” to the best of their ability, just don’t expect to get much, or anything, back. Knowing what’s going on has brought me great freedom;
> Donal,
> I really admire how you are able to comnine studying and a career, while doing very well at both of them.
> far out as they’d say back in the seventies.
> M
> I seem to be really affected by feeling criticized on a moment I expected people to appreciate calm had returned and things had more or less ended in what to me feels like something consturctive, at least potentially so.
> can’t force the horse to drink etc…
>
> it is disappointing on a moment when I actually felt good about myself to suddenly be confronted with what feels like the opposite of support.
> oh well I guess, coloured glasses, my conscience is quite clear about this one, and I guess I do have a past as well, but I really thought people would know me better and well, can’t help but feeling this like a negative kind of thing..
>
> luckily have a session later on to explore what bugs me.
>
> being misinterpreted I think.
> M
Margaret – not that you need my kind of ‘support’ but for what’s it’s worth (next to nothing as I like to say) to me you have the original ‘spirit’ of primal in that you believe in exploring and going all the way through something. Also with the assumption the other person who might even be ‘fighting’ with is basically OK and means well in their own way. To me at least that was big aspect of primal as I absorbed and understood it. My experience for what it’s worth don’t need to repeat how it’s worth next to nothing is this ‘spirit’ is NOT shared by a lot of people including people here. In fact quite the opposite sometimes shockingly so. That’s why to me in so many ways primal to quote Janov himself even if he did not mean it quite that way has ‘become a neurosis within a neurosis’ That’s a tricky one try punching your way out of that paper bag………………I have and it’s hard
So from my point of view there is no need to get down on yourself to me you embody the spirit of primal way more here than your ‘critics’ who are quite well imbued with all the ‘modern’ mindset of cutting people off, ignoring, not struggling blah blah blah…………..they have their words for it but to use Fiona’s word is mostly a from of ‘segregation’……………….some of them have become very good at it and use ‘primal’ very effectively to do so……………..again to come back to the same conceit ‘a neurosis within a neurosis’……………..as the man himself says I was going to say ‘the man above’ but that’s how we talked as kids about God Janov is not God but he is smart………….and as I say I am sure he has seen a lot of that including probably in himself if he cares to notice………………..
Also Margaret I did call you a ‘fucking liar’ but well that is just a combination of you maybe not wording something quite exactly and me over reacting. But it’s fine now I understand now what you meant and were referring to it’s over. Not a problem. Meanwhile people who are not even involved hold onto stuff like I called you a ‘f…. liar’ And that’s sadly typical of some maybe a lot of primallers…………….isolate and hold onto one version – their version of things. :Like I said before the average Irish person can ‘problem solve’ so effectively and fast compared to some of these dinosaurs.. Sorry again I have to say it “a neurosis within a neurosis”
> Patrick,
> what you say does mean something to me. the first paragraph.
> for what follows i see it more like everyone reacts from his own set of feelings interpreting my motives through those glasses.
>
> and I even know thy might have had a point in the past, when i did have certin patterns, which might stilll occurr even in some situations, but to me they don’t apply this time.
>
> when you called me a liar, I did not like the way you expressed that adding some meanness to it, but at the same time I felt how hurt you were.
>
> truth is to me all what can really guide us to discern what is real and what is not.
> sometimes feedback can be extremely useful as well, but in this case I do feel hurt by what was said to me as it feels like noone sees my true self and how well I mean.
>
> I even feel like crying a bit now, something seems to have gone wrong with the schedulig of my session,I should be talking to Gretchen right now.
>
> I wish people would give other people the benefit of the doubt more often, or ask in case of wondering instead of comoing up with what feels like a judgment.
>
> it is more than just this blog interaction,I am sure, there are other ways in which i feel very misunderstood and hurt without having a fair chance to work things out.
>
> I feel I deserve better, which basically is a good thing, even though some of the hurt remains and will make me be less trustful for a while at least.
> hope you doublecheck your reactions the next time and maybe just ask as well in case of doubt?
> M
Margaret: I am inclined to agree with both Leslie and Larry, with respoect to you and Patrick … but then I am obviously biased.
All this reminded me of when I was little and one incident when after a nightmare I went into my parents bedroom and told my mammy I was frightened. She put her arms arond me me pulled me into bed next to her. My fathers retort “Oh! my god”: and turned away from my mother who in turn turned to him with her back to me. But even with her back to me that felt so safe. It didn’t occur to me me, but something must have registered. As I see that now … me having a problem (nightmare) was a bigger problem to my father than was my terror … but I obviously had no-one else to turn to other than my parents. I did have my mammy… more or less … but obviously not my daddy.
In the present I get a similar reaction from time to time with Jim … Did I partner up with a symbolic daddy ???? I guess I did.
Jack
Jack, What you wrote here about who you could turn to has had me thinking. I really don’t recall having anyone to turn to in this way.My mother was a cause of anxiety and my father was unhelpful andunaware, although I could feel comfortable being with him. But therewas no one for me to go to with anxiety and fear, I was on my own withthat. But being on my own was actually the cause of the anxiety and fear to begin withis what I find. Phil
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:35:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Yep!!! and to quote … again “There’s the calamity that makes so long life … when he might his quietus make make with a bare bodkin …”
Where to start ???? My only hope is that eventually Primal Theory will become the universal Psychological theory.
It’s just that the fuck-up placed on us; we inadvertently pass on to our kids. And that for sure, to me, is the ultimate CALAMITY. So complex … yet it could/should be otherwise … if ONLY.
Jack
> I notice now, after just having had my session anyway, that what also gets triggered for me is something to do with shame.
> like I should be ashamed for needing or something, like what happened in various ways as a child.
> disapproved for needing/wanting something.
>
> there is a lot still to explore, all to do with not feeling understood, disapproved of, fear and loneliness.
>
> on a rational level Jack, I don’t immediately see how your story links in to mine here, but on some feeling level it does anyway, the need to be accepted with fear and need and everything included, and to be given some comfort/support/safety/sympathy.
> M
Margaret: It was not intended for it to be a parallel situation. It was; from the comments to you and your response, REMINDED me of the incident. Not sure I know why … it just did. I mentioned it merely to state on the blog something that happened to me … and to relate how Jim re-acts in a similar manner.
Just before writing this I had a problem because my contact lens slipped and if I am not able to rectify it, I ask Jim to help me locate it and with a suction pad help to pull it out. It was not happening for some reason or another, and I tried to make a suggestion to Jim and his retort was:- “Shut the fuck up”, then walked off It really is a parallel situation to my dad.
In hindsight I know why my dad got irritated with his kids. They were the only ones he could ‘let off old feelings’ from HIS childhood. The same as I see it with Jim, but from time to time I get very upset that he is seemingly in an angry mood with me, when it’s my guess that it is with somethings else. The sad part is that we are not permitted to discuss it. That brings on more problems for Jim with what I consider to be his rising feelings. C’est la vie. It’s a choice I make … I need to know that. It doesn’t prevent my irritation with him, but as I have said. It is my feeling and belongs only to me So I am compelled to own it.
Jack
To me it feels hopeless concerning Patrick as far as getting him tosee the benefits of exploring here or at the retreat, in therapy etc, so I have givenup whatever efforts I was making. I shouldn’t have been doing that to begin with. He has to see for himself and has his “own way” in any case. Phil Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:58:54 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
At times Phil you seem so ‘blind’ to me. So you think you are ‘exploring’ here but I am not? You are somehow in a ‘better’ place or something so you might ‘reach out’ to me………….but now you realize it’s useless! That’s pretty condescending do I judge if you are or are not ‘worth’ reaching out to?. Doesn’t all that get pretty absurd. we are just 2 people here I don’t think we need to get into who is ‘worth’ reaching out to etc etc. Though I notice you are not the only one to question Margaret why she thinks I might be ‘worth’ talking to or ‘reaching out’ to. Very condescending and a bit typical of a group who somehow feel they have some esoteric knowledge.about things. To me this is all nonsense and Margaret at least has good instincts and intentions about her. All this questioning of her just missed the point IMHO.
BTW Margaret I thought of another aspect of this. If you proceed on the assumption the other person has good intentions………………that means also you do as you judge other people according to what you feel about yourself. Do people who write off other people or think other people are not ‘worth’ reaching out to…………..I wonder how much worth they really feel about themselves. They just judge other people to be not ‘worth’ it as we have seen a parade of people do here. I am NOT impressed…………..
Patrick, To be trying over and over is to be acting out an old feeling on my part. So that’s why I say I give up, and it does feel hopeless. Nothing to do with your being “worth” reaching. I just don’t want to be locked in some continual pattern here. That isn’t worthwhile for me. Phil
Patrick, I don’t want to be arguing or struggling over the same stuff continually (and I do do that at times), that’s what I’m talking about and what I’m better off avoiding. Phil
Philip Banco wrote:
Patrick, To be trying over and over is to be acting out an old feeling on my part. So that’s why I say I give up, and it does feel hopeless. Nothing to do with your being “worth” reaching. I just don’t want to be locked in some continual pattern here. That isn’t worthwhile for me. Phil
I would say it’s a bit strong stating that Margaret appeases Patrick…….from what I can see she tries to reach out to him, but does express her reactions and feelings as she needs. I do not see it as unhealthy. Then again I have only been on the blog for spurts so may have missed something.
However, I have seen their interactions over several years: It seems that when Margaret has deal with her own feelings regarding Patrick, she makes genuine efforts to reach out to him.
Donal
I do not have any reactions to Patrick at this point though have in the past episodically. I think some of his observations about primal have validity, and there is a certain amount of healthy skepticism. It is good to question aspects of therapy, even if overall you believe it works, which I do. For example , the last group of each retreat: let’s face it, there is a lot of overinflated statements and wild promises being made there (I want to thank my therapist, I want to thank my buddy, myself and my buddy are going to stay in touch, you’re all a bunch of assholes I am leaving therapy, followed by grand exist…..etc., etc,). Even the best things in life have apsects of bullshit,,,,,,,Patrick reminds us of that fact.
Donal.
Donal: As I see it there are several issues going on here and the first is Margaret’s feeling that Patrick is worth reaching out to. I am not sure, how or why this is, and so far, Margaret has not stated why she feels he’s worth her effort.
The next issue, again just me, is:- What constitute “Struggle” and at what point does one give up on it. I struggle with that very “struggle”.
The final issue, again, just me, is the manner in which Patrick expresses what is going on with him. I could well be wrong, but Patrick seemingly, does not take ownership of his feeling. I contend (that ‘dirty’ word again), he feels wronged and his manner of dealing with it is to lash out. What I feel is sad for Patrick is that is seems not to resolve anything for him, and, worse, many resent and dislike him for it. AND he defends his stance to the bitter end.
I don’t see Patrick leaving the blog as I feel he has no-where else to go. Of course, all this in definitely MY bias.
Jack
Despite my most fervent and genuine hopes many things have not resolved for me, from in therapy and post therapy feeling. My, “resolve, ” my conclusion has had to be for me that whatever is, is.
While I had appreciation that primal process/theory is dynamic, but had no way of knowing, except by continuing to read Dr. Janov’s publications as released, how their thinking and therapeutic approach has changed, and even then that is somewhat guarded.
I keep searching for any writings coming from Vivian, Barry and Gretchen, to get an idea how the PI has changed 30 years on. But have not found any, despite the plethora of experience they must have gained. There used to be some of that in the old Primal Newsletter.
That would be invaluable to me now as I am not as influenced by my old tendency to be influenced by, and inadvertently applying the information to my path.
David: I don’t quite see it the same way, I feel you do. The therapy for me was to encourage me into the ‘feeling zone’ as best I could to stay there and stop as best I knew how, to be constantly figuring out the “Why’s” of life. I have not achieved the totality of that, and chances I won’t for the rest of my life since, having been a neurotic the damage was done and I am left with the struggle against the “struggle”. Hopefully, to be a defenseless as I am able. That for me is the best it will ever be. There is, as I see it, no end game to therapy.
Whilst I too have a lot of respect for the way the therapy has progressed it is ONLY by the means with which the therapists GUIDE PATIENTS. The outcome for patients, remain more or less the same. Gretchen has said on more than a couple of occasions that she is jealous, that in her days as a patient there were no retreats. I am so pleased that for me there was. It was truly a great way to have the “mirror put up to me”. Group can do some of that but, not in as expedient a way … for me at least.
Though I did initially, like you, hope that I could be a therapist, but after one therapist told me that my name had been brought up to go into orientation it was ultimately decided that I was not ready … at that time. In hindsight I am pleased it didn’t happen, as, I see it, is an ongoing battle for the therapist discussing patients and discussing how best to deal with them. I feel I was way too old at 48 to get a master degree in psychology and then an indefinite internship.
Unlike some have expressed here, I do find that getting into feelings on my own is very convenient, though it surely is an advantage to have a neutral person (therapist and/or buddy) listening to me. I also don’t see therapist’s has having reached a better point. They, I feel, still battle their demons, luckily, they have one another.
Jack
My purpose was never to become a therapist. I just wanted to be relieved of the damage that had been done to me. To not struggle for love and acceptance with people who were never going to give it. To stop being a victim.
MY, ” conclusion,” I refer to, is that whatever I end up accessing, whatever resolve occurs, is, the “is”, the reality, of what will be; that I have come to accept. There is no alternative. I have no agenda, no expectations; no more comparing me to anyone else in terms of progress.
Jack, What is your email address? You have posted it repeatedly on this blog but i can not find it now, I am actually wanting to repl directly your post in early september…about aging.
David: My Email address is:- jackwaddington@yahoo.com. As far as I am concerned you can comment on here about the “on growing old” post of mine.
However I am a little disturbed since I have been responding to “David” with e-copies of my book. Now I wonder was I sending them to you ‘David Hardy’?
Jack
Jack, that wasn’t my post. I replied to it, too, and the writer was named, ” Anonymous.” I didn’t know who the writer was addressing, so dashed off my email, too. I assumed the writer was speaking to both of us, and I have no idea what was being referred to as to how our interpretation of how PI works differed, because that is bang on with my understanding; and in fewer words, to Anonymous’s credit. Oh, Gawd, Jack, you don’t think the social anarchist group, ” ANONYMOUS,” has crashed our blog. Hell I’m a bloody physically peaceful but mouthy anarchist. Maybe they’ll recruit me and give me a new career. More likely our fed government wanting to schedule disappearing me… hah
I have received your books JACK. david. and you’re on my contact list. If you have retained any of my emails, Anonymous’s font is different and also how I type my name is not the same. time will tell if we’re being screwed with. Oh well I have a spam filter and a security program the envy of the CIA…..Actually I remember a while back a newbie saying, ” she, ” I think, was not comfortable identifying self, yet.
Dear Anonymous,…. I jest; ….. that’s how I understand the therapy, too. were you asking Jack or me for an email address ? I’m dvddoodle99@eastlink.ca; daveydoodle is my youngest daughter’s pet name for me; that was taken; so were dvddoodle’s up to 98; whoda thunk ??? david
Some good points you’ve made, Jack.
Why does anyone need to have Margaret explain herself ? Not to explain herself for her, but perhaps it has to do with her evolution, she has achieved that level of growth. That would be something to be congratulated wouldn’t it ??
Vicki: that was very nice to read from you.
One point I would like to add, for those not in the know … was at a retreat when you were designated my “Secret Santa”
At the end of the week I was given this tiny mug with a name on it along with a poem. It was hilarious. You had obviously taken a great deal of thought in creating it, It read:-
Poem to a Jack
A wrack of Christmas ornaments,
with names from Adam to Zack
all the Williams, James & Johnathons,
even Jeremy, but no Jack,
Oh there was a peg, a place
a space for Jack,
But all the Jack’s were gone,
so I did the next best thing,
and got you a “Dick”
Your pen pal
I have shown it to many and to this day hangs on my wall over my bed. It still brings me to laughter reading it
Jack.
Laughter,???? from a Primaler ???, we’ll have none o’ that, sonny…. say 3 hail Abagails an’ turn tree times ta the left, unless your left handed…
David: Sorry if that off-endz your soul (as-soul) So here’s my penance:-
Oh! Hail thee mighty one Abagails. I have sinned in thy name and I promise I WILL do it again. Ab-ag-ai-ls hail thee; and forgive my sin-full-dress… “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”. … “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”…. “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”. I turned left and saw only ab-normal … or was it ab-omination … maybe ab-cess. Fuck … what a mess I am in.
Jack
Gud one Jackie… long live lafta…
Thanks, Jack, I remember it well! Indeed, questing about for a gift, I looked for your name on a rack of mugs, there were none, and inspiration struck — better than finding a “Jack” would have been. A (non-primal) friend, with me at the time, thought it was a risky choice, but I thought I had a pretty good idea of your sense of humor, and was so glad it was true. I have laughed myself, more than once, thinking about it over the years. Especially because in school, I was never good at poetry, and yet, given the right inspiration, I did do a good job.
Vicki: You sure did and I thought it was worth repeating here on the blog … and hope others got a good laugh out of it also.
Jack
Well…there actually are people who wish to thank their therapists and stay in touch with their buddy 🙂 G.
Nearly 30 years later I still trust Dr. Bernfield with my life. He would never do or say anything that is not in my best interests. I know I am welcome to return to therapy.
I was stupid not to keep in touch with a couple of people like Londoner, Ray R, who took the trouble to suss out my address and wrote me after I came home.
Indeed, Gretchen😊
I visited with a friend, former beloved educator, psychologist, and wicked Jazz guitarist, who is dying. His wicked sense of humour has a bent of anger to it these days. He was telling me how a neighbour, a guy I also know had been by to borrow a mower. He had ,” nursed, ” this fellow through alcoholism recovery, and his marriage collapse. The fellow had been on his doorstep 7 AM every day for a prop up and often for a night time tuck in for more than a year. So today my friend decided he’d tell him what was happening in his world, that he had weeks to live and was in intractable pain as, “… buddy stood with his hand on the door knob trying to beak eye contact and escape.” My friend began laughing uncontrollably as he told me, “… buddy’s response, “, which was , ” huh, Man the Red Sox are sure in a slump, eh/??” ” How fucked up is that?” he said.
Otto I always read you, and don’t know how to be of help. And maybe that is not what you want. But I hear your pain. The biggest bit of support for you that I read was when your dog died.
This whole thing about ‘owning’ a feeling is very valid I think……………….but my problem a bit about owning a feeling about PT itself is well first off I am SUPPOSED to realize it’s all my ‘issue’ blah blah blah so that does not always feel right and secondly it is a way to ALWAYS let them off the hook! It’s set up like that!
And that has been and is a major problem with the place and the way it has always been done. Remember the ‘roots’ of primal are very like the EST days of all you can do is ‘express your feeling” it is very clear it will have NO effect on the organization or the people that run it.
I can still remember it was even before I came here so around 1974 on TV an EST meeting and some guy gets up and basically says the EST people and organization are full of shit. And a ‘voice’ from a loud speaker in a very calm tone says “thanks for your intput” it was so weird and so clear the organization did not give a fuck.
And basically what I felt during the suicides and Dr Holden’s ‘nervous breakdown’ it was still always a case of “what does it mean to you” So owing a feeling is good b but can it be done when first of all it is clear that is your only option and secondly do you ‘trust’ an organization that is that opaque and always just reflect back on you whatever you. The answer for me was NO
People might think me arrogant for saying I have found my own way……………….the way I see it I really didn’t have a choice. I have felt very ‘helped’ bv the likes of Dr Kruse and I would also say by this blog as strange as that may seem to some people. It gave me a chance to say even if later than ideally some of my problems and objections. And Gretchen is probably very tired of this but I credit her big time for that……………………if I was depending on Janov NO……………I could write so long as it was along the theme of how great he is/was. How lame is that and it is like that to this day with him……………….
BTW ‘comparing’ even now Dr Kruse with the PI…………..I find no ‘separation’ or ‘mystique’ about him maybe it’s hard for me to really ‘trust’ people but I CAN and I DO when they feel ‘safe’ to me……………with primal there is a lot of ‘distancing’ I understand part of this is the psycho-analytic tradition………………..also incidentally a ‘tradition’ I am not too crazy about…………..pretty ‘cold’ and ‘calculating’ not much ‘warmth’ there and a kind of psychologically a poor world……………
Patrick: this is not meant by way of a poke at you, but to suggest, as I see it, you look at your words here. You say “‘owning’ a feeling is very valid I think………………. ” why do you ONLY think, isn’t it obvious? You now continue with:- “but my problem a bit about owning a feeling about PT itself is well first off…..” So far, you seem to be acknowledging that this is merely YOUR FEELING. That’s fair enough, but now you continue with “I am SUPPOSED to realize it’s all my ‘issue’ blah blah blah ” WELL !!!! ISN’T IT????
You suggesting that it “does not feel right”, is not to say that IT IS RIGHT. My take is that you leave it just where it is … “your feeling” … no-one else’s.
If on the other hand, if you are desirous to know how the Primal Institutes inner working operates; that is a whole other matter and their concern. Not, in my view, the patients or anyone else. I hope this does not rankle you.
Jack.
Basically it DOES ‘rankle’ that is. You are not my ‘teacher’ you don’t need to ‘grade’ my lessons/papers, you sing your repetitive un-musical tune all day long. “Think” is ONLY a word, no need to get hung up on it. To me you feel like some old hateful preacher who is constantly beating and pounding on my head. You do not mean me well so why do you bother? Your intentions are not pure or good, you say yourself it is ‘perverted’ and it is. I have had way too much of preachers like you. You have nothing to show me or nothing to tell me. You said if you saw me on the other side of the street you would keep on walking. I have accepted that so KEEP on walking then……………the further away from me the better. You want it both ways and more you ‘ignore’ me but you fuck with me you say I am a piece of shit but you still fuck with me. You said Jim brow beats YOU well you brow beat ME. I don’t like you you are a wizened devil who constantly self promotes himself. I am ‘happy’ to write on here and ideally have nothing to do with you.
You are not my teacher
You are not my preacher
‘Grade’ somebody else’s papers. I have NOTHING to learn from you and nothing to get from you. Practice your PR moves on somebody else PLEASE
Hey David, I’m glad you are here with us on the blog. You joined us on the comment page but if you go to the home page you will see many articles by Barry and I that you can read. Gretchen
Thank you Gretchen
Gretchen,
Yes, there are people who are genuinely grateful.I was going with my impulses in my comment, trying to see if it would get somewhere. I have reactions to the end of retreats. One aspect of this is that I often feel angry and disconnected when people are just plain nice to each other. Unless I happen to feel connected to that myself or feel included somehow, but that is rare.
I just have an aversion to simple niceness between people, and I am also cynical and suspicious of it, resolving to myself that people are being phony. self-serving or just choosing to believe something more comfortable than hard reality. You comment and that smiley face icon at the end is the type of thing that often produces those types of reactions in me. Not this time so much, for some reason.
Donal.
Patrick,
I googled EST as I was not familiar with it: sounds like it was a misguided crock of crap. Forcing people to be themselves and abandon their defenses. Crude methodology with ridiculously short time frames,
No wonder if fizzled out in the 80s.
You’re right, the process of recognizing it is your issue and owning the feeling can be tedious and annoying. It often feels very cognitive to me. However, I do have cognitive defenses and did dabble in CBT before I went to the Insititute. The CBT therapist saw me for 8 weeks, then asked me seriously if I thought I had received enough therapy…..jesus.
Anyway,
I would say if Dr. Kruse’s program gives you all those things you mentioned, nobody can really argue with that. you seem fulfilled in certain ways by it.
Donal.
Donal: I did the EST training when it first came to London and at the time, before my Primal days, was impressed. Maybe for me it was a forerunner to Primal Therapy, but I am under the impression that Jack Solomans (alias Werner Herhard) went to see Art Janov. Not sure if and what took place on their meeting.
I did see it as a way at looking at life and mysef in it. Many found it to be way too harsh, but I found it did attack my defenses, and was able to absorb much of it.
I suppose in all, this is an aspect of me, in that in my 20’s, got involved in a very emtional method of voice production, later I got involved in The Alexander technique and then EST and followed by Primal Therapy.
Does this suggest that I am somewhat fanatical, or could it be that I was always a radical searcher. I’ll leave it for others to decide what I am, in terms of the outside world seeing me.
Jack
Jack,
You comments on the Margaret and Patrick’s interaction: I think you made some good clear points.
I do not have a dog in that fight (at least not yet :)), but it will be interesting to see if Margaret responds to the ones about her,
Donal
To change the subject a bit (LOL)I heard this song on the radio to day and I realized I didn’t know who this was but what I did know was………………it was in the soundtrack of “Goodfellas” and was so effective at conveying the world of the protagonist as it was falling apart, the intense fear and paranoia and a helicopter hovering menacingly overhead. It seems to be one of the brilliant uses of a song in a movie. Anyway now I have found out who it is does anyone know (or care)? Guru where are you? Are you ok? Who is this? It’s been a while I was reminded of you as you like movies. Goodfellas to me was a brilliant movie and this mood especially.Pity there is not the actual clip of the movie but this is about all I could find
Nilsson? I was into his music in the 70’s. I thought that because he hang out with John Lennon that he was also writing about PT. I was very much a Pt wannabe back then, but did not have the moves to get there until 1985. I used to listen to Nilsson and Lennon, I guess they played on the radio a lot. I remember this song, but I did not know it was Nilsson. Maybe they played it less on the radio. Maybe I was too loaded. Thanks for posting the song. I hate fucking gangsters though. Now I go see what the lyrics are. And find other Nilsson that meant more to me at the time.
Yes Otto – Bingo right first time…………….I had no idea. Harry Nillson whose career I know little about but he did work with John Lennon quite a bit.
Here’s one with hippies instead of gangsters.
**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siIukVsG3vs**
I mean (mostly) white 70’s musicians, not hippies. Or most of them look like hippies. This is a good dynamic song.
John Lennon was my real hero. I want to listen to some of his stuff, but.
Harry Nilsson – Spaceman. He had such a beautiful voice. Getting small tears, this was music on the radio during some of my darkest years….
Otto – this is a longer version of the same song…………..I thought the shots of all the pop culture heroes pretty cool. I could recognize a lot of them you probably more I imagine.
Harry Nilsson – Without You 1972 (HD)–the best! also Harry Nilsson – Everybody’s Talkin’ (1969)
Gerry Rafferty – Right Down the Line. something else that they used to play on the radio at the time, and i liked it. But now I feel like the arthritic old man that i used to work for in the 70’s, briefly. he took advantage of my good nature, and my job was to wipe his butt, drive him to the physical therapist, and watch Merv Griffin while getting drunk on Burgundy wine. We drove to the doctor and they still played that 30’s or 40’s music on KOST or some other channel. That music has pretty much disappeared from the radio, except for Sirius. I didnt like it all that much. But now I am the old man playing old music.
Horrible horrible years. Getting out of high school, an abrupt break with everything I knew, not seeing the people that I saw everyday for years. Riding my bike to college and not knowing what the fuck I was doing. Getting strung out on amphetamines and LSD. Moving out of my family house with another idiot, leaving my grandma pissed off at me. Drinking drinking drinking. My best friend getting murdered in 73 so I joined the Navy to get away from grief and other people taking advantage of me. Leaving the navy to get PT, but I didn’t until 10 years later.
Otto remains dead. Brought his ashes home today, while taking another sick pet to the vet. I remain mostly numb. Not comfortably though. I hate this ending, nothing good about it.
Gerry Rafferty – Baker street.. where is that? Kid #1 is in London, going to Scotland too. Wish I could be closer to him, but that’s a lost cause.
Donal, Why are you angry when people are nice to each other? You said it was rare that you felt included… Why would that be rare? Gretch
Patrick, Psychoanalyst’s and Primal therapists are actually worlds apart especially in regard to what you describe as ” distancing” .. Ask an analyst about his life, past or present, and you are likely to get a blank stare or a question about the meaning of your question. Ask a Primal therapist that same question and you may have to beg them to stop talking an hour later. Our approach , our philosophy, when it comes to transference or counter transference are in fact completely different animals. I think there has been a great deal written on this subject. I also wondered about your comments that you felt the blog was helping you. I wondered how exactly? Gretchen
> wow, about 50 more comments to catch up on this morning, have read some so far and already want to say thanks David, Leslie, Sylvia, and you too Patrick, for saying those things, as I feel very frail really and am starting to cry right now.M
> Domal,your words mean a lot to me.
> your presence on the blog feels like a fresh breeze, full of oxiygen and nice ocean smell.
> M
Gretchen,
I appreciate your questions: they cut right to the heart of the issue. I always felt apart in my family like the other four members were connected. This lead to feelings of anxiety and panic (kind of) and I reacted to these feelings by trying to get involved in some way by saying something, interjecting, whatever, However, this often led to reactions of annoyance from my parents and comments telling ,me that what I was saying was stupid,wrong, etc.
The same feelings are there now. When two other people and myself are connecting with each other at work, for example, and the conversation develops so that the other two are really just talking to each other, I have a reaction. I feel isolated and there is fear: it has that old life-threatening feel about it, like my mother is ignoring me and I need her to pay attention.
I am more aware of it and try not to interject into conversations in reaction to these feelings. Not always successful, but I try to do things differently to get into the feelings more.
Donal.
I see another facet of my life experience. I feel embarrassed, like begging for a crumb. Like how stupid am I to be standing here pretending to be part of this. Like mom said nobody wanted me. I get really pissed off in acting scenes at the actor who plays that role. Also I use to love it when I and # 2 had put another # 3 person in that position. Only in the past few months have I been able to watch, laugh, get it, ” Big Bang Theory.” I was so pissed off by the stupidity, why anyone would want to be with those fuckheads, who would want to be friends with anyone like that.
Gretchen,
One more thing. Mark the therapist made a pointed comment to me once that was very revealing. I was talking of how my boss got hit on her way home, as someone broke the red light, She was a bit sore for a while, but ended up being OK. She told me that the person who hot her was just a kid and made a mistake, I told Mark that I was in awe of how sympathetic she was and that she bore no malice and was not angry at the kid. Mark told me that generosity was not an aspect of my family growing up. It always stuck with me: my family were not generous in spriirt. A lot of the time my needs and feelings were not understood at all. Like I was describing above, my parents took my words literally and dismissed them as irritatingly out of context. However, they did not see a child who was feeling isolated and trying to feel connected.
Donal
Margaret,
Thanks for your nice comment: I am glad you feel that way!
Donal
In response to your comment Gretchen; I would like to add something that happened to me when after the first six months, my starting groups was called in, along with all the therapist; with respect to our progress so far. I was expecting that I was going to get a report card on MY progress. I was shocked and somewhat bewildered for some minutes when we each asked to say HOW WE EACH FELT ABOUT OUR PROGRESS IN THERAPY … SO FAR.
“Oh!” my re-action was … “you’re not going to tell me” … instead I will be telling you. That was contrary to everything I had ever known in the past. Slowly it dawned on me … now I remember Janov had said in his books … to the effect ‘we patients were the experts on ourselves’.
I do see that our expectations of what the therapy is about before getting into it … is dependent upon how we will progress in the therapy. It is here at this point, I feel Primal Therapy is worlds apart from all other psycho therapies. I would include almost all other forms of therapy also, which includes, philosophical, medical (dietary and excise), pharmacology, massage and physical therapies.
Primal therapy is NOT done to us. We do it unto ourselves … with the guidance of a Primal therapist.
To the uninitiated, that, I feel, is where the greatest misunderstanding of this therapy lies.
Again … therein is my bias.
Jack
Patrick, Otto,
I like this ballad by Nilsson:
Jack,
Also, sometimes it is easy to blame the therapy when we get busted in group (especially at the beginning, when we are new) or we end up feeling bad in therapy in ways we did not want/expect. I find it good to remember that the therapy is simply bringing to the forefront all the feelings that we can keep down in the way we live our lives outside of therapy. Therapy does not generate any feelings.
I have seen people in group who have an expectation that they will feel something and the group will support them. (this has happened to me too, of course: as you witnessed on a couple of retreats) Then people start reacting in ways we do not expect, then we end up feeling bad in some way we did not expect. I have learned that these situations are good: you end up spontaneously in a feeling you did not see coming. Also, you get stirred up in other ways, which leads to more feeling.
Donal
I only ever spoke twice in Big Group. The first time what I needed to say was how much I wanted to belong, have some one like me, and how it hurt to not be getting that. Instead my bullshit words, was, and, although a true incident, I told of how at the volley ball beach I drew a circle around myself in the sand as a way to protect me. (It was my loneliness.)
The silent reaction I got ,” felt,” made me wish I could dig a hole in the floor and disappear, stupid, stupid, stupid, I felt, my worst fear came true, acknowledgement that no one cared that I existed. For a kid from the sticks LA was perfect for getting nothing, being invisible.
Nice song Donal.Gretchen asked me a few provocative questions but I’ll get to it but rather go on and on right now I was reminded by Jack talking about the 6 month follow up where we looked at an actual video of ourselves talking when we arrived in LA and at least the way I understood it so we could see our ‘progress’ (hopefully) or the therapist could comment etc.
ALL I remember and I mention ‘all’ as it says something about how ‘self centered’ I am in that say now I remember nothing about any of the others though I can list even now most of their names and remember them quite vividly for the most part. Anyway that said all I remember about myself is how “Irish’ my accent was………………and this was NOT a ‘positive’. I felt I sounded like some country bumpkin but ‘worse’ somehow like there was deep shame there and ‘inferiority’ too. Like some ignorant and worse ‘un-cool’ type of person.not hip not all the things I wanted to be and even sometimes maybe imagined myself to be only to see the actual video and it’s like nah this is not working.
I said to them ‘my God I sound so irish” and the therapist said but you ARE Irish.And I go “I know” I think I got into what i am saying now a LITTLE bit but only a little. Like ‘shame’ in general it is hard to bring it into the open. I read somewhere recently where the person was saying people who suffer from shame are typically ashamed of that even. Kind of vicious circle that it can be hard to escape.He was writing in relation to the schism between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church who did not believe in ‘original sin” The Catholic Church I knew growing up did very much believe in it and I somehow connect the ‘shame’ I felt with that………the feeling I am ‘irredeemably’ bad or doomed or something not good………………….
Speaking about being ‘hip’ or ‘cool’ this is the kind of thing I might imagine in my ‘fantasy self’ no Irish accents there English all the way…………….Mick Jagger is a Leo also I am a natural attention seeker even if most of the attention I get is ‘bad’ in show business they say no publicity is bad publicity I don’t know about that one……………..
Patrick,
Glad you brought this up…….one of those “thank fuck I’m not the only one who has those feelings” moment.
I have always been conscious of my Irishness, specifically I felt inferior. When I was young I wished I was English I thought I would feel better. I remember fantasizing about being in a band like the Stones: it works much better when I think of myself with an English accent. I just could not take it seriously being in a famous band of Irish guys, I actually compromised and imagined myself as an English person who lived part of his childhood in Ireland, and had English parents, so still had an English accent (like Adam Clayton).
I have also done a similar thing with imagining myself as an American actor/rockstar.
I still feel we are inferior. That countries like England, the US, Germany, France are more sophisticated and developed on a personal and societal level. A large part of this is my feeling of Ireland lacking structure or consistency.
Of course, this is just me generalizing the experience of my family to the country I grew up in.
This came up in my session with Barry the other day in which he pointed out that my childhood family lacked structure. He qualified this by stating there was plenty of unhealthy structure, but not the good kind of structure a child needs.
Donal
Donal – yes it is amazing how ‘deep’ that goes. I mean it is such a powerful ‘feeling’ it can color everything.
Recently I have been ‘getting in touch’ with the old Irish ‘spirit’ and well……………..I think it is truly wonderful. You know the way people talk about ‘indigenous’ peoples and how close to nature they are and the kind of wisdom they had. Well it seems to me more and more the Irish were/are ‘indigenous’. We had all that but then it was taken away from us, we were made to feel ‘ashamed’ we looked to England especially and Europe too but it’s like we are looking for something we have lost already and lost very close to us………..so close we cannot see it and we race around the world trying to find what we lost at home.
I am pretty sure I will ‘retire’ in Ireland and part of it is that………………I have spent my life running away and seeing the magic elsewhere, but it was always out of reach. Now I accept more and more I lost it all so close to me and now I feel like even physically moving close to it and also being open to all I have lost. I got a flavor of it last Summer and I have a good relationship with my brother so I believe I can make it work. I am under no illusions that ‘I can go home again’…………home was lost to me a long time ago but still there is something very appealing about it even if only it means I can go there and ‘let down’ let it all go, how hurt and scared and all the rest of it I was.
Patrick,
You are very realistic about moving back to Ireland, and all that it will entail. I know some who have moved back after a decade or two over here, and had unrealistic expectations. I think many, like myself, did not live much in Ireland as an adult. So, they had the expectation that they were moving back in time, to the carefree days of childhood. Of course, when you have grown=up responsibilities they follow you every where.
You are talking about this at a deeper level of course, from the point of view of someone who has accepted they lost a lot in childhood. It would be easy for people like me and you to assume we can get what we lost by going back home, Of course, it is not possible. I accept that more now. At one point about 15 years ago I had this panicky set of feelings and a compulsion to move back to Ireland before I got too much older than I was then. I ended up staying and am glad I did not react to these feelings by moving back: it would have been a mistake. Looking back, I thought I could salvage something I never got growing up: a rich and carefree childhood.
Donal
The exchange between you and Patrick is so rich, I don’t want to water it down, so to speak with a diverting comment. My maternal grandfather was one of the 1867 Irish famine children. Whoever took them in was , ” what ethnic group they became.” So we have French Acadian O’Sullivans, for example. My grandfather was taken in by a German family and he took their surname, so the records say he is German. I don’t even know his Irish name, My uncles born here, both sounded like they just got off the boat, yet a man who sailed with my grandfather told me, ” Charlie ,” had no accent, and told him he came from County Cork, so he might even have been of French ancestry. Then I learn that my fathers, father was not his biological father; that he was a Mi kmaq Indian. Sure enough a search shows that my wonderful grandfather married my grandmother, his cousin, years after my father’s birth and census shows he did not even live with them until my father was 5 or so. My only known heritage was, “poverty.” I belong, ” Nowhere.” I look white, but have an Indian soul. I am involved with the Mi kmaq, community, started to learn a little language and traditions, but do not feel I can speak about, “our people,” at gatherings even though many there have less Indian than me in their makeup. Even if they don’t look any more Indian than I do, they were born on Reserve or can say for certain who a Mi kmaq relative was. I have no claim of heritage. My white birth brothers didn’t want me. So, I’m pretty much fucked as to belonging anywhere to any ethnicity, although Mi kmaq who got to know , “me,” welcome me. It’s not the same.
I apologize again for cutting in on this nourishing exchange between you and Patrick.
Donal – you might find this ‘story’ interesting and you might be the the only one who can really appreciate it.
I was only 14 y.o. but was already playing goal keeper for our school’s under 16 team. Anyway that is not important except only to say I already felt in over my head. This is Gaelic Football not soccer. I am already imbued with how ‘cool soccer is, it’s “English” after all. I am a total fan of all the soccer stars of the day Georgie Best,(who is Irish but Northern Irish so ‘actually’; British) Bobby Charlton etc etc. So though I am a playing goalkeeper in a Gaelic team I have this fantasy life as a soccer player.
We are playing in Killarney a big stadium can hold up to 50,000 people just a few hundred though actually there but in fantasy well the sky is the limit. Also Killarney is where the senior football team play the crossbar IS high 8′ maybe I am what 5’6″ or something (making excuses here). Early in the game the ball is lofted in to my goal near the cross bar. I flick it over the bar giving up a point. As you know in soccer that would be just a corner. So I score a point for the other team in Gaelic the actual game we are playing but in my fantasy life it is ‘only’ a corner. I knew all this of course but also I did it in a kind of provocative way I would say. Like not ‘shy’ about no like I AM a soccer goalie.
BTW the referee way this legendary Kerry goal keeper Johnny Culloty was his name. I knew who he was and all the tradition he embodied. So…………next time down the ball comes into me I gather it and then flop on the ground holding onto the ball. Again a soccer move, a soccer goalie can do that but NOT a Gaelic keeper. He is treated pretty much like any other player and can be ‘shouldered’ and tackled etc. I think at this point Johnny had enough. He awarded a penalty to the other team and I felt very strongly I had pissed him off at a deep level. Incidentally the penalty kick crashed off the goal post to safety without me knowing anything about it. I think I had already learned my lesson though…………..I was tempted to sprawl across the goal in some kind of demented acting job but I didn’t. I felt I had really pissed off this legend and behaved myself for the rest of the game.
Anyway I thought you might like that story I hope I conveyed the ‘spirit’ of it………
David,
No apology necessary: actually the story of your ancestors, though very interesting, is very sad and added to our discussion. I often think of how horrible it was for Irish emigrants to North America in the Famine years and indeed into the 20th century, They left behind an inevitable death to face a dangerous voyage and uncertain future. Unlike myself and Patrick, who can jump on expedia and book a flight home once we have saved some money, most never saw their families or Ireland again. American wakes were really marking a form of death: family members new they would never see each other again in this life.
You mentioned your Uncles’ accents. I went to Nova Scotia several years back on a motorcycle tour, two of the guys who went with me were also from Ireland living in the US like myself. and an American couple came with us, We played pool in a bar somewhere before we reached Cape Bretton (the destination of our trip)., and got talking to some local guys, They sounded like they were from Ireland, but were third/fourth generation. It was not only the accents that were similar, but the mindset was similar to that of guys you would meet in rural Ireland. I made it a point to talk to as many natives/locals after that and found the same thing. It was a pleasant surprise to feel welcomed and at home in Nova Scotia. I do find a lot of Irish-Americans and Irish-Canadians need to preserve that distant link to their culture: seems that it is essential for their sense of belonging. I became more sensitive to their situation after that trip because I grew up in Ireland and left by choice, unlike many of their ancestors.
I have been reading your posts since coming back on the blog. You’ve revealed a lot about yourself: I can see you’ve had a lot of tough things to deal with in your life.
Donal.
Like so many survive, Donal, tough times. I wonder at times if maybe the majority of kids. Not that I’d wish it on anyone but it allowed me to save doubting people who talked about surviving similar and worse experiences. Kind of like talking to someone who actually walked on the moon… Probably that old survival thing that my grand dad passed on to my mother. She wasn’t born a brute. Just thinking out loud. I realize you know all that.
Oh, next trip, Donal, go to Newfoundland if you want to step into Ireland; the outposts especially. The music, the open doors, the laughter, the midnight mug ups/ full course meals, the generous attitudes to a stranger. I haven’t been back there for nearly 50 years; christ, 50 years…., sadly, it may have gotten all, ” civilized,” in that span of time. Oil, I’m told brought pimps, drugs, the whole McDonalds full meal deal to the city of St Johns.
Patrick,
Great story about the Gaelic match…at least you can say you annoyed a ref who was a legend !!!!
I used to like soccer, hurling and Gaelic as a kid. My parents never encouraged us to play though: they were negative and disparaging about sports. So, I was never much good due to a lack of encouragement. I remember getting my first hurley when I was in second class. The primary school pitch was right across from our house, so I went over on one long sunny Spring evening and practiced.
I wish my parents had been more positive. I just played the school league in primary, but to join the local GAA and FCC clubs like the other kids. Not that i would have been any competition to DJ Carey or anything, but most of the kids were average but enjoyed playing.
You must have been good to make the school U16, all the same.
Nowlan Park was where you played that day?
Donal
I just looked it up Nowlan Park is in Kilkenny this was in Killarney in Kerry. Fitzgerald Stadium it was called. It’s a big stadium like I said the Munster Final is played there every other year. It is/was a bit crazy for a 14 y.o. to be playing in such ‘big’ goals I mean the crossbar looked way up there. I wasn’t really a good footballer, playing in goal was a bit of cheating really. I mean I suppose I was an ok goalie or was thought to be but you know it is not the same as being an outfield player. There is such a ‘tradition’ in Kerry about all that football I mean and in a way the way I behaved was a bit ‘sacrilegious’ wouldn’t be the last time I did that……………..am I not a bit ‘sacrilegious’ about primal even………………
Patrick, not my game here, but whatever, you,” are,” something I truly admire is your refusal, ” to be disingenuous,” You throw it out and knowing the results, because being honest is that important to you. Thanks to you, I recognize now that I have at times, been disingenuous, disguising it as humour. Me the guy who asserts that, ” I always take ownership for what I say.” Full of crap I was on that one I now see, hiding sometimes behind, being indirect or, ” humour,” so I don’t catch shit. I owe you, sir.
Correction: I wanted to join the local GAA and FCC clubs like the other kids.
Donal – I am a bit amazed I mean I sort of thought I was the only one to suffer this “Irish syndrome” thanks for being so open about your own ‘fantasies’ makes it seem strangely ‘normal’ now for a minute……………..I really thought I was sort of the only one…………..or the only one with that extreme of a case………………it’s good to ‘admit’ these things……………..
Patrick,
I misread: you did write Killarney, Being from Kilkenny (you probably got that from the DJ Carey reference) I inferred Kilkenny into your post I suppose and thought you meant Nowlan park.
Hurling was the big thing there, of course. I remember watching an All Ireland once then going out to my friends house to play a bit of hurling since we were so energized by Kilkenny’s win. Kerry and Kilkenny cannot really be sports Galway is a different matter because they have good teams in both sports.
Likewise, I am glad you revealed your Irish syndrome too:refreshing to have it out in the open. Interesting that we both have fantasized about escaping to another nationality…..it’s probably considered high treason to wish you were English in some circles in Ireland!!!!
David,
One of the guys I knew did go to Nova Scotia and then New Foundland by motorcycle, and really enjoyed seeing it. A lot of driving though, which is tougher on a bike laden with luggage. I wanted to go back and see it: it is probably still largely unspoilt from what I have heard. New Foundland is the next piece of land when you head west from Ireland, so has always intrigued me. Labrador has always fascinated me too………it seems so desolate but I notice there is one road to drive my motorcycle along??? Would have to be July or August of course. I bought a book in Nova Scotia titled “This Wonderful Terrible Place” which shows pictures of Labrador and New Foundland which contains black and white photographs and provides some details of the history of these areas. it fed my curiousity I believe they are considered one province, but am not sure.
We actually camped in Nova Scotia which added immensely to our experience.
Donal.
Depending on where you go in Labrador, which is part of Newfoundland, there are expanses of rock surfaced roads which require 6 or 8 ply tires to avoid flats. It’s a travesty what the mining has done to Labrador. Holes in the ground so big they have built communities in them with long winding roads to get down. The people living there are oblivious to what is happening to the ecology. Monster 4 wheel drive pick up trucks are part of the luring candy package. When the minerals are gone so are the companies. Huge money for minimal education. One guy I counseled as a kid, Grade 8, some community college, is now a millionaire several times over.
Oh, and Cape Breton is part of Nova Scotia, Donal. Because of the need for artisan tradesmen in the early1900’s it has a fairly diverse ethnic population, while Scot is the predominant group; but Jewish, German, Italian, too. Where I live is where the French built the first permanent settlement in 1605, and Annapolis Royal, the 1st Capital of Nova Scotia.Then the British conquered them in 1613, and a see saw military campaign went on for decades. The Mi kmaq saved the French from certain death and they had a fairly respectful relationship except the French were bent on converting them to christianity. From the time the English and Scots gained the upper hand to the present there was an emphasis on exterminating all of the Indian Tribes, who were far more developed socially, politically, and in medicine and surgery than the European invaders. There is significant intermarriage between Irish, French and the Mi kmaq ( mee maw with a sort of haak sound at the end), and English and Scots with Black Loyalists, and free slaves fleeing the US before and after the American Civil War. Slavert was maintained by Northern fed gov’t in one form or another for 80 years after the end of that civil war. It was the engine that fueled the nations economic development, prisons used to supplement the slave sheds. Spitting was enough for a lengthy prison term to hard labor.
In Canada whites sold their excess children into slavery under the semantic, ” Indenture.” New Years Day and July 1st were scheduled auction dates. My paternal grandmother was ,” given in marriage,” by her Protestant/Baptist minister father at age 12, in 1877, to a 39 year old Scot from PEI. He drowned at sea and at 15 she was again, ” given in marriage, ” that time to a 62 year old US businessman. Rather uncivilized IMHO…. No wonder we inherited such fucked up parents. Sub humans….
I do get on my rants, sorry…
david
Kid#1 in Europe. Usually Z and he spend Saturday together laughing it up, driving around. Since he wasn’t here, she wanted ME to drive her around. Went to the beginning of Topanga, some overlook. Arguing all the way. Took the 2 dogs out for 2 minutes because Sophie’s whining was bothering Z. Not going to go into detail. Took those dogs home and picked up the monster dog and went for a drive to the beach. Stopped at the old PI on Pico because it is a good neighborhood to walk the monster dog in. Z didn’t bring her walking shoes and so we walked 5 mins only. Drove around to Pico and went past the old PI, then drove up to the new PI to take a glance at it. Z made a comment about me circling around the PI. She did not like going down memory lane. So we drove down to Santa Monica, ostensibly to go see the beach. But really, it was just memory lane, I was not interested in going down memory lane either, but I really had no plans happening in the brain matter. Drove past the house we rented on Bay Street, where the kids became serious drug addicts, and where kid #1 came close to dying everyday for a long period of time. Where kid #2 hung out with assholes. Where my favorite dog died a long slow death from leukemia. Where the dog we got kid#1 in 1989 died of old age. Where 2 of our cats got run over and 2 others went missing. Bay Street, where kid#1’s fish tank fell apart and half of his fish died. Bay Street, where I finally had to get rid of the 2 remaining fish because I was unable to properly clean the fish tank and kid was now staying elsewhere. Took the 2 fish to the fish store as recommended by fish enthusiasts online. They ended up in the dark back tank room of the pet store, where previously they had been in our living room full of light. The pet store guy said he would try to find someone to take them. Then my job and and me and Z got moved to AZ for 2 years. I called the petstore guy once and he said one fish had gotten a home. I meant to call again many times to see about the other fish but I could not bring myself to pick up the phone at work to do so. We came back from time to time to see the kids who were getting sober at a sober living house. I went to the fish store and the 2nd fish was gone and the petstore guy was no longer there. I felt horrible for abandoning that fish, they probably flushed him down the drain. A beautiful hawaiin fish, Oomo Oomo, or something like that, pretty large fish and you could look at him and know he had thoughts. Every time I drive past that pet store in Santa Monica I feel horrible about that fish. Anyway, Bay Steet, the same Bay Street where I once went to meet U, sometime in the 90’s, who later died of liver cancer. Bay Street, funny, also there was the Bay Street in Costa Mesa where my uncle almost murdered me. I did not feel too bad driving past the old house today because I am uncomfortably numb. We did have a couple of good times down at Santa Monica beach in the years since we got back from AZ. We don’t live there anymore, but we would bring Otto and Sophie and Cody down to the beach for a Saturday walk sometimes. I am sure Z and I argued in the car 50 percent of the times we went. Anyway, Z said if kid #1 gets a job after phd, in somewhere besides L.A., she intends to go with him. Fine with me, it will not be easy or even possible for me to get another job wherever kid ends up. I said I would probably stay anyway, because I moved to L.A. to go to PT, even though the prospects of ever returning to PT appear dismal. A sick cat now, another $400 at the vet. Well, she does not look too good, so maybe this time it won’t be so drawn out like with Otto. At least I was able to do some boring overtime work today, to pay for the vet. You know what, I am having a lot of fun in my old age. You know what, I am a fucking liar. Victim. What fucking ever.
Hey Donal, Thanks so much for your answer. I thought it painted a clear and concise picture as to what happened and how it has impacted you. I must say it sounds like an incredibly painful situation to have grown up in. Marks comment regarding ” a spirit of generosity” was pretty accurate as far as I’m concerned! Gretch
> Donal, 20 years of Shotokan, that explains why I always noticed something very secure, upright and stable about your bodily posture.
> I am a black belt judo myself, and notice still how it creates a basic kind of confidence, despite probably never really useful in a physical way for me now in a fight.
> the confidence in itself once was enough for me to chase away a mugger one night who assaulted me right in fromt of my own doorstep. I just kept pushing him away and screaming at him what a coward he was to assault a blind person, and that I was not gonna give him my money, haha, and finally he ran without having taken anything. even the cellphone he grabbed out of my coat pocket was left on the window sill..
> I like that bit of knowledge about you.
>
> and David, that was a very nice thing you said about me not having to explain myself.
>
> well, only 29 more comments to read this morning..
> M
Gretchen – you asked me 2 very interesting questions at least to me they are. 1. How does psycho-analyis compare with primal therapy as regards ‘distancing’ the distance between therapist and patient, ‘transference’ etc etc 2.How exactly did/do I feel ‘helped’ by this blog.
I would love to have a crack at both of those……………….but I’m thinking what are the chances especially with somewhat cerebral topics like that or at least they will be seen as such, what are the chances that I won’t get my words ‘quoted’ back to me in a stupid, spiteful and nasty way (There THAT might well get ‘quoted) I would say my chances are nil. My logic will be found to have holes in it, I will be found to be a ‘crooked thinker’ I will be told to “STOP’ doing something or other, I will be told to stick to MY feeling and to STOP having notions about the world, rigid distinctions will be drawn and made about ‘MY” feeling and ‘reality’ on and on and on. Not that ‘reality’ anywhere operates that way except in the rigid mind of ‘religious fanatic’
So in the interest of hopefully a peaceful Sunday I will have to pass for now. I don’t need it and I don’t think the blog needs it. Just more pointless one up man ship and PR. But thank you very much for asking it is nice that you do not ‘shun’ me like the “Amen Corner” and I will keep it in mind and at some point I will answer you. And seriously thanks again for asking. I plan to be away from the computer all day (a peaceful Sunday hopefully)……………….
My social life on weekends is feast or famine, too often famine. But this weekend, it’s a feast. On Friday evening I went to dinner and a play with about 10 ladies from a singles group I’m part of. What’s interesting for me is how I felt able to exert myself, my personality, into the group dynamic instead of just being a quiet, passive tag along. The other interesting aspect about it was how despite it being a good and successful social evening for me, my dominant feeling exuding through it all was emptiness.
This Saturday morning I got a hair cut. It’s my 4th one with this new barber. He’s a young man in his 20’s. Conversation until now has been kind of strained and polite. I sense a lot of repressed tension in him. This morning he opened up to me. He was 8 years old in Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. He was scared all the time, terrified of the dropping bombs, constantly wanting it to stop. In his teenage years he was depressed, suicidal. He came through it all by deciding what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, that there is a reason for everything, and you have to have faith in God’s plan. You get the idea. I didn’t brush him off. I just said to him I have a different view. He wanted to hear it. I told him OK, but I don’t want to try to change your mind, I accept your view is valid for you and works for you, but it isn’t what works for me. Then we had a friendly discussion while he cut my hair, where I dismantled some of his thesis and presented alternative possible explanations for why life is the way it is, which he found interesting. He enjoyed that we were able to disagree on friendly terms. As I paid my bill, addressed me as ‘brother’. It was a nice connection, but so shallow compared to the connection with good primal friends, leaving me feeling empty.
Saturday evening I went to a backyard potluck barbeque, with about 35 people from the singles group. I liked how I was able to mingle a little more confidently than in the past. I liked how the conversations I had with the persons seated on either side of me became pretty real, or with a friend who came to sit beside me to visit. I liked how accepted I felt in this friendly group. But my dominant feeling exuding through it all again was emptiness.
Today I have a potluck picnic to go to. Yet this morning I woke up very early, unable to sleep for some reason, restless. I felt an awful unease that was taking the fun out of the weekend for me, that was draining any fun out of life, a hopelessness that was making life feel not worthwhile despite my efforts at growing it. Probably a feeling on the verge of erupting I figured. So I got up and turned on some music. Sure enough, out poured the feeling. I have no family history to find strength in, no parents who I lovingly bonded to, no childhood that I cherish. I’m just alone on my own. If I don’t find the right people to connect to, it feels like life/retirement will hardly be worth it. Then again, it was my childhood that was unbearable. When I was strong enough to go out into the world, I was astounded that people saw something in me that my parents never did. It was those people who made my life worthwhile as I made my way.
I’m at a stage where my life is poised to change, where I feel very alone, where the emptiness of my childhood is starkly evident to me, where I have to have faith and trust that if I reach out I will find good people, while at the same time realizing the disturbing truth how I had to shut down reaching out to my parents who were not good people for me.
Wow, Larry. I, too, keep revisiting old scenes, feeling the same feeling over and over; though not so much repeating the same feelings anymore. With such hopeless childhoods, so many feelings contributing to a particular state of reacting, I don’t know whether I have simply completed feeling some things or if I am blocking. Or maybe it’s another pivotal feeling altogether. Finally, I am more confident that I have stopped thinking about an emerging feeling.
Went for coffee at friends home last evening. The wife is totally controlling, and, unsolicited, it was my turn to be told how to run my life, the, “you shoulds ??” Followed by how together she is. I feel sad for her because she is wearing out her body with all of that rigid thinking. Couldn’t unload, it would be unfair and inappropriate, So I put it on hold, simmering, until I got to the end of their long driveway when leaving. Didn’t swallow it this time or bring it home with me. Feeling anger is getting a little easier. At the end of ventilating came the anger that my childhood caused me to develop a life where I have so few choices, that I have to tolerate interacting with some ,”unright,”people just to have a social life. My one,”right,” friend recently had an unidentified cerebral event and is now not very much in the present.
Hope you are where you’d like to be before retirement, because, I agree, that complicates things.
David,
I found your outline of Nova Scotian history very interesting: you know your history, which is always a good thing for a person to be aware of. I did not study the history of Canada ever, except a class I did once which was a survey class of all Native Americans in the different regions of North America. I was not aware of the importance of prisoners and slaves to the economy. Similar to the Irish and English prisoners who were sent to Australia for relatively minor offenses and used for labor.
Donal
Very strong parallels, Donal. Canada, and Nova Scotia, in particular was actually a leader in Public Education in my youth, provided a view of world history deemed to be reliable by independent experts. Kids arriving from other provinces and the US were down graded by 1 – 2 class years to catch up. It’s a failing system now. Except, they left out the part about the campaigns of genocide against the 1st peoples. Must have accidentally gotten lost when it went to print…lol Our first Prime Minister, drunken John A MacDonald, who kept a barf pail by his desk, stated in the House of Commons that the demise of every last Indian by whatever means necessary, was his hope.
I had two wonderful history teachers who made it dynamic. I learn best by listening and observing.
And true to my nature know more about underdogs than top dogs, except those that were bastards to we underlings… lol
Maragaret,
You think I did 20 years of Shotokan? Not me. Perhaps you meant somebody else? Maybe I mistyped something in one of my previous posts
Donal
Gretchen,
I appreciate you asking me about this……got me talking about some important stuff. I do need to remember that it was consistently painful for me in my family, and the ingrained way that it affects me today. For me it’s the way I felt in my family day in and day out over years that caused my pain, perhaps more than specific incidents. I felt bad around them most of the time.
I have a session with Barry tomorrow so will talk about this more …..unless some thing else comes up in the meantime: you know how that goes! :).
Thanks,
Donal.
Patrick,
I was not going to post this, as you used to post music videos on the blog on Sunday morning, So, did not want to steal your thunder. However, seeing as you are gone for the day, here is a song relevant to Nova Scotia and emigrant dreams. I always like this song, but the story is a sad one:
Great to hear Stan Rogers. Thanks Donal. His classic, the Northwest Passage, was the anthem of those of us who worked and canoed in the wilderness of northern Canada.
This guy’s music was also an anthem to the north, the wilderness, and working, canoeing and camping in it. Pardon my indulgence. It was my life for 1 1/2 years before I got to LA.
” Ah for just one time….” you’re absolutely right great song for those occasions. My 16 ‘ Gates, Stewart, Indian Princess cross, white cedar got crushed when the outdoor kitchen roof collapsed under snow load. A lot of good memories over 33 years in it, and sleeping under it; like a dependable, predictable friend. For now I only have the Mi kmaq style paddles my father carved.
So you do have some cherished memories. I’m glad to hear it.
For sure; tons; camping trips, canoeing trout fishing, music, parties, swinging, skipping stones, swimming in the creek, ball, hockey, piano, sneaking into the wild life park to feed the moose, with my children are precious. They were my life, after the work day ended. When they were off to sleep I played music with band mates. But now it’s kind of like that song, ” I’m living on things I once done..” I have gained the confidence that I can move forward, and want to. Even going to start, after a 13 year time out, having conversations with a woman who also plays guitar and caterwauls. Scared but going forth…
My canoe was built for me by my elder friend, the year my youngest daughter died. Thanks, Larry.
Not a problem Donal – I am kind of amazed you remember that. It feels a long time ago a sort of lost world to me now. Memory is kind of amazing like how MUCH we remember and adding new memories all the time. Doesn’t the brain get ‘full up’ and for each new memory we add does an old one have to go to ‘make room’……………but it probably does not work that way. How does it work or is it a ‘head trip’ to ask that? My bad…………….
Larry,
As always, I admire your ability to persevere and connect with people in the present, despite the loneliness and pain of your past.
I can see the retreat had a positive effect, assuming that you meant socializing and mixing is easier since before the retreat (you may have been referring to a longer period of time). Nonetheless, I think you are making some real progress in connecting to people in the present while being in touch with the old feelings.
I have been taking more risks with engaging people recently, both socially and at work. I feel I have made some good progress: I can participate in conversations more spontaneously rather than being in my head planning for the right moment to enter. Less barriers in joining in. I used to think the barriers were just reserve, or some over-politeness. In reality, they were just a bunch of crap my parents pun in my head, for want of a more artful expression.
I feel lighter and more free socially, I also feel freer just to be myself, rather than adhere to some template of how I should behave. That was stuff my Dad put in my head: he taught me to control my personality cognitively so that I would behave properly in a social situation. Plus he had ridiculously old-fashioned notions from the 30s and 40s, seemingly. So, I did not trust myself as he did not trust himself.
I realize now if I trust myself, socially successful behavior follows naturally, There is no need for all these cognitive rules: I can sense what is appropriate and what is not based on feeling. I do not have to be perfect at it anyway.
I hope you enjoy the picnic and the socializing today.
Donal.
How hard David to be trapped in trying to get what you need from the wrong people. I’m glad you are feeling freer socially Donal, more free to be yourself. I was able to enjoy the picnic and socializing today. More people were interested to visit and talk with me, more so than other times. The connections felt good and real and I could let them just be casual instead of needing to cling to people.
But doing what I need to do sure brings up stuff for me. As soon as I started the 1/2 hour drive home after the picnic, emptiness seeped in and took hold. At home I lay down for a 1/4-1/2 hour nap. I described earlier how I arose very early this morning, restless, my sleep cut short. After my nap, emptiness still haunting me this afternoon, again I put on some music, and again out poured more feelings. So much emptiness in childhood, emptiness that could factor in my present if I don’t do something about it.
I cried need for my parents, need difficult to let myself feel, need for them now and the need still there from my past, need for them and love for them, but nothing in return from them but cold indifference, neglect, such a tragedy, such a cold brutal reality of life, impacting and ruining mine. That’s the hardest part, seeing and feeling there can and will never be anything from them in return, on this earth, in this reality, for eternity and it would have destroyed me.
It feels that, especially the childhood feeling is that it is hardly worth going on with life. No wonder I was so shy, quiet, withdrawn and afraid as a kid. But as an adult, I’ve found life is worth the effort. That I mean something to my friends, that I meant something to Noreen, gives my life meaning but these days brings up how little I felt I meant to my parents. I feel great emptiness, but surely if not to my parents, there is someone out there to whom I am worth something.
Larry, I relate a lot to what you say here about feelings of emptiness coming up.That’s a good description of what I experience as well. I have my family around me and people where I work but it happens anyway,For the most part it seems like I don’t have much to complain about, but littlethings and big things in my marriage relationship also trigger these feelings.Some of these things in the relationship I’ve come to realize are my own fault.But I picked someone who maybe isn’t especially sensitive and that has somethingto do with it too. I set myself up for a bit of a struggle. We are together a longtime and it works, but hasn’t always been easy. My parents, especially my mother just didn’t see me and what I needed, I was on my own.Every time those feelings of emptiness come up, and it is a lot of sadness, need,and anger, afterwards I feel a little more whole and able to connect with people,and my relationships are improving as I am better able to express myself.Phil
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 23:31:21 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Oh Lord, or, Laird, Tiarna, your preference, you wouldn’t dare step foot inside an Irish styled Pub in Nova Scotia without being able to sing or mumble through this lengthy ditty; it’s the 31st and 151st psalm… A,” STANFEST,” in honour of this adopted son is held every year on the weekend immediately following July 1st, Canada Day, at Canso, NWestern tip of NS where the causeway accesses Cape Breton Island.. A 3 day pass is about 100 bucks. His brother Garnet attends, all world class talent.
The Irish counter insurgency is quite legitimate, in my view, especailly in view of the English repression of the Irish. Not that the English didn’t repress many of their own, due in part as I see it, by means of royalty and the aritocratic structure.
My take on the whole ethnic/cultural factor is the sense of separation it creates, rather than the coming together of all peoples. In the end we are all mongrel in one form or another. It is why I see ‘PRIDE’ especially the kind of pride that my dad used to instil into us Waddy’s … about being Waddy’s, British and some other none-sense. I bought into it initially, until I began to think about things in a broader sense especially when entering conscripted military service at 17+ and met all the various factions of other British conscripts; learning by listening to many others their accents and in some case dialects, rights, rituals and ways of thinking.
My education about the differences of people, was advanced by hearing many others idea and desires and where they hoped to take their lives to the point that I often precipitated those discussion. I was further helped in another sense by being gay and finding that I began to meet an array of people outside of the army. It was at this point that I seriously began to question my religious belief, to the point of utterly rejecting it all. Much to my mother’s chargin and upsetness. This began a further rift with my parents and the feeling that I was now “ready” to leave my home town and get to a more cosmapolitan center … London in my case.
I was futher helped in all this by meeting some very, very bright people, especially in the gay world, and because I was a catch for many of them (thought at the time I did not see it).
I say all this in the hope that this blog can be used in a like manner. I feel this blog was a brilliant Idea, in that it threw a bunch of us together to fight, figure,enlighten, configure and see our place in this very loose bond of what is called Primal people. I do not see us with any tight bonding, but a place where disagreement, and undertanding that disagreement does not necesitate dislike … of others, or feelings.
It’s Ok to be sad, angry, terrified and even happy, if and when the feeling takes over. Something that was, and is currently being suggested by other, from our pernts and upbringing. Dunno if I am rattling any cages here, but even if so, isn’t that why we are thrown together on this blog ???????
Jack
Agreed. Something seems to be happening, a bit more solicitous ??? I think Maggie sort of set the tone. I’m grateful for that, and for comments that stir me. Sometimes they take a while to get through my hard skull.
David: Maggie sure DID set the tone … it is not that ironic that she, like her buddy Reagan, became demented. If Janov’s writings are anything to go by (and to me they are), it all started in the womb for both of them.
A thought occurred to me as I was reading your comment:- We have 20, or thereabouts, running for President for this land of the free …. stating they are going to solve the problems of the country, and who knows, the world.
Haven’t there been about 45 presidents over the course of the last two centuries plus: and we are still, seemingly, not solving the problems … as I’m sure most of them in their political campaigns insisted they would. I’m convinced none of the currents ones will either, but we peons go on thinking they might
It’s a very fucked-up world.
Jack
smoke and mirrors, Jack. They, the politicos, create diversions whilst real intentions run under the surface. I get more out of reading ex politicians, once powerful,who for whatever reason decide to spill the inside workings. The more I read the more it reminds me of as a boy sitting in the dressing room of professional wrestlers, mostly pals, running over the script of the show they’ll be acting out, physical and verbal; professional hockey where the fights are staged, maybe the wins, too… peons or pawns, we…
Oh could you suss out more directly your first paragraph. Are you throwing down a gauntlet ??
David: If by the first paragraph, you were referring the Maggie & Ronnie one, I don’t get your drift. If on the other hand your are referring to the earlier first paragraph about the “Irish counter insurgency” … then my answer is NO … no gauntlet … I meant it. We British have a lot to account for when and if we “reach the pearly gates” and that goes for the instigation of ‘slavery’ in this nick of the woods.
I contend that those colonials that crosses the pond … mostly the poor and disenfranchised in the old county … on getting to the new world, saw an opportuinity to enhance their prior poverty stricken situation, and play at being ‘new found aristocrats’. It’s a British imbred mentality … as I saw it … from within.
I’m sure I’ll come in for some flack from other British folks. BUT, it’s obvious … to me … we fucked-up most of the planet.
Jack
Yes, the para about Margaret and… I did not understand what you were saying..
I get the colonization only too swell.
Oh Jackie; as Barry said, ” ,… get on the wrong train every stop is the wrong stop…”
When I said, ” Maggie,” I meant , ” our,” Margaret. I am guessing you thought I meant the barbarian, Margaret Thatcher. I’m asking myself, ” why would Jack, who likes Margaret be calling her demented, and I’ve never read her friend, Reagan, on the blog.” And so I ask for clarification from you, you make an indirect, snipey, remark in another comment about people needing clarification, and so on,an on… misunderstanding is interesting.
Then as I rehashed this , a bit ago , I had a senior brain fart, and an ” AHA,” moment; Maggie, Reagan…..
Sorry I got us on the wrong train…
david
> ha, Donal, was there no mentioning of shotokan karate in your comment at all, and twenty years in the same line??
> maybe I dozed off again this morning, smiley, sorry..
> M
Since coming home from the retreat I’ve been extremely busy although still readingthe blog. We’ve experienced severe car problems, one son was in an accident. He’sfine but the car was very old and is a total loss. Another car died on a camping trip lastweekend at the campground. The engine is shot, another lost car. So all of this has been a lot to deal with and exhausting. These cars had to be towed, junked, and I was drivinga rental car until yesterday. We had to run out and buy a another car. On top of all this I found out I have Lyme disease. It was caughtearly, so it shouldn’t be a problem. On the advice of a friend I’m taking doublethe dose of antibiotics and for a longer time period. I want to make sure it’s clearedup. Besides all of this we have my mother in-law, niece, and nephew visiting and theyneed to be entertained and shown around. All of this has left me little time to dwellon feelings but I do need to. In my normal routine I keep things under control, I havetime and space, but all of this has been stimulating me, and of course, without the support available at the retreat just a few weeks ago.I was debating whether to share all of this or not but decided it could be good toput it all in writing. Phil
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:55:52 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
the shotokan karate reference was from me. talk about no one reading a guy suffering from never being heard, invisible in a room…
Hey David, I read and listen! I often don’t comment on writings, because I often don’t know what to say or the obvious pain someone expresses is expressed or there’s too much ‘head trip’ stuff for me!
I was being 3/4 cheeky, Jo, yesterday being a rather settled day. Thanks, though. The other 1/4 though, there was discussion about the Shotokan Karate reference, attributed in a positive way to Donal, ie; explaining his competent character. It really meant nothing in itself to me. I felt no need to yell, , ” It’s me, it’s me.” But, then, no one knew who had made it; ie: my comment hadn’t been read or had not registered with anyone, unimportant, like me. . It touched my feelings of invisibility in a group, the guy who can stand alone in the corner all night, that I don’t matter. Listener was the majority role in my past professional life. In my personal life my role is also listener. If I want to end a conversation all I have to do is become a participant. That leaves me empty, alone, and angry at times. Notoriously always there for others but little reciprocation. Maybe if I didn’t run on so I would be read, or maybe remembered is more accurate.. Like Tom, I wonder at age 69 if I have enough time to grow up even if I were under optimum growing up conditions.
I’m glad you put it in writing Phil. I feel better, more connected, knowing how things are with you. I hope they get better.
That is too much going on Phil, and horrible that Lyme disease was confirmed. Glad you wrote.
Phil – I am glad you wrote here! So sorry to hear of all the exhausting problems with the cars and most importantly about you having Lyme Disease. That is scary – but so great you got to treatment quickly. What symptoms were you having? – if you want to share.
I am also glad your son is ok after an accident. Thankful for that I’m sure!
It will be wonderful for you and your family to vacation soon!
ox L.
Leslie, There was a black dot on my body which I ignored and didn’t suspect was a tick. Laterit was gone and a rash developed and was spreading. I had chills one night, headache,and fever for several days. At that point I guessed it was Lyme but my doctor thoughtit was cellulitis. The Lyme tests came back positive. My symptoms are finished and were rather mild. It hasn’t effected my joints at all in the way it could have. It is scary because I worry about lingering symptoms and problems. I know several people who have continualsevere problems with this. Thanks for asking. I am looking forward to the upcoming family vacation, we need it.Phil
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 07:26:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
An MD friend who contracted Lyme some years back discovered there were only a very few clinics in North America where they actually knew how to treat Lyme. He said the standard anti biotic dosages and the stock course of treatment protocols were not sufficient to vanquish the varmint, and severe lingering problems, like you say, if a thorough clean up is not followed through first time around. I know he went to an away location, I think Australia. My Naturopath colleague tells me there is a reliable treatment clinic in Arizona. Also the Envirionmental Health Center in Dallas Tx treated Lyme when my friend Dr Ross was on staff there. Or at least he did. But that’s yarons ago.
Leslie there are two really good Lyme Disease sites on the net; maybe more now. At least one a National Consumer Driven site.
Thanks David. Hope I never need it – but just wondered about Phil as we just saw him
@ The Retreat.
Of course tragic things can happen quickly – as you know. Our 22 year old son just left a couple of hours ago for his close friend’s funeral. His friend was just fooling around and fell from the 4th floor of an apt. blg. under construction last week. Tragic mistake…
Jack,
I agree wholeheartedly agree with what you said about this blog. I think it has been a success overall thanks mainly to a few regulars who keep it going through the leaner times, and post openly about their lives, feelings and pain.
I always find primal people to be more alive, more interesting and more stimulating in general. True, it is a loose bond as you put it: we are all from different backgrounds with different interests and paths in life, to a significant extent. However the fact that we accept the full range of feelings is the unique element that binds us.. Most people see uncomfortable or unpalatable feelings as things to ignore, eradicate or suppress, not to embrace or explore. Therefore, they ignore parts of themselves. Primal people accept the whole spectrum: I think that is why they generally seem more alive, and benefit from more of the good feelings also.
Whenever I return from retreats back to the world, I can see the contrast clearly,
Donal.
Donal: That comment of yours was very encouraging to read. We none of us should be afraid of any expression of any feeling, and that includes fear itself. I hope that last line is clear.
For any that find it confusing, let me know and I will take another shot at it.
Jack
Patrick, I think you may have misunderstood me. I was only asking you one question. How had the blog helped you ? I don’t think that could be dissected by others as it’s simply your view. The other issue had to do with your comment that you believed there was a connection between Primal and Psychoanalytic ” distancing ” . I was just st explaining that was not the case and that these are very different approaches. Gretchen
Gretchen – just because you only ‘asked’ one question does not mean that I will not ‘answer’ two. lol. When you say that ‘it is simply my view and therefore cannot or would not be dissected………………….you would think so wouldn’t you…………….but you would think wrong………………I probably have said hundreds if not thousands of times on this blog what I though was ‘only my view’ but it DID get ‘dissected’.and many times thrown back in my face
But OK – I am making this more difficult than it needs be or should be but I am gun shy (what a strange word) now. Thinking about it now I suppose it is difficult for me to simply say that I like something and why I like it. But once again I can’t or don’t want to start now. Also for me it is a ‘big’ subject it could get into lots or areas but again I am making it difficult I will try later (promise)
On the other matter about psycho-analysis and PT I have quite a few thoughts and have started to write something about that too. But again my feeling is for sure that will be ‘dissected’ and found to be a ‘head trip’ I find that so tiring. I mean we all have heads we are probably meant to use them. I accept they can be over used and are a lot………….but then again people condemning ‘head trips’ are using their heads themselves in saying that kind of stuff and often to an extreme degree IMHO.
For some reason I have been ‘meditating’ (is that more acceptable than ‘thinking’ I am aware if I said ‘feeling’ everything would be ok…………….but these are all only words but some are more primally correct than others) a lot on Janov’s Idea about a ‘neurosis within a neurosis’………….what if it is that is what we are all (mostly) doing? It’s something to ‘think’ about oops I mean ‘feel’ about is that better?
Sorry to be so ‘meta’ about all this I suppose I am just tired and worn out from all the ‘blog wars’……………I probably will recover.
Hi Everybody
I am lying in bed night after night, awake, wondering what’s bugging me.
Ever since I came back from LA, I am completely exhausted, however I can’t get a full night’s sleep.
I read your posts and I am amazed how articulate you all are, with the description of what is going on with you. You all seem so “adult”. Contrarily, I feel like someone who has no clue. So little.
I’ve been wondering lately, where to from now on? I have two projects on, which don’t require full time attention. I have the Grumpies. I have my volunteer work, I have Suzi, the kids and the grand kids.
So why do I feel so alone? Why is it that there is nothing I can think of doing that would full fill my life, give me contentment. A sense of achievement.
And then I walk on the street, in a mall and can’t help looking at young mothers and their babies.
I want to scream at them when they are not paying attention to their babies. I look at babies and toddlers, and they always respond to me. How do I do that? I know I don’t have a magic formula.
Then this morning I wake up and make a list of things I have to do. Go shopping first. Have my hearing aids checked. Turns out it was a batch of bad batteries, not me damaging the bloody things.
Have my car washed. While that’s happening, I walk around the streets. Keep asking myself……Tom…..surely there is something you want……surely,no? ……Tom….what would give you pleasure……..Come on man, think!!!!! ……there has to be an answer to my dilemma.
There has to be something life, other than my yearly pilgrimage to LA and Santa Barbara that I could look forward to. You would think so, for someone that has almost everything in life.
So what is going on?
And then it hit me. Not the first time, but this time more clearly.
Everything I have ever done in my life, was to ultimately get what I never got from my mum, and possibly(?) from my dad. Everything I ever touched, any job I took on, any ill fated venture I got into, was to satisfy this deep yearning for physical touch. For a look into my eyes. For bonding. For connecting.
Surely, there is a time and place where I can get all this?
I am sixty nine year old, going on to three months of age. Will there be enough time for me to grow up? Can I ever “feel” enough to release me from this hell I live in? Constantly introspective, in a cocoon, feeling traumatised and incredibly anxious.
What the fuck have they done to me?
What can I do to help myself?
What? Feel and Feel and Feel the neglect, the old pain, the terrible longing, over and over again? There has to be a time for a pay off. Surely. IT CANNOT GO ON Infinitely! Surely!
I am a good boy. I attend to life’s issues. Personal issues. More importantly, I consider myself a “good primal patient”. So when is the pay off? I can’t stand feeling like this. An orphan in my own home. An orphan amongst my friends. An orphan amongst YOU.
I can’t stand it. Somebody HELP me !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please. I beg of you.
Tom
Your story sends a chill through me Tom. I’m afraid that when I retire my life will feel as empty as yours feels for you. Barren. Pointless. Meaningless.
What is a ‘good primal patient’?
Patrick, Well of course you can answer as many questions as you like , I was just saying I only asked you one. I wonder why you are worried about having your answer as to how the blog helped you dissected when that fear has not stopped you from expressing your views on other subjects. You are correct however that your answer might be examined or it might not be but in the end you are simply voicing your personal opinion as to what you have found helpful. But yes, others can express their reactions as well. Maybe it would be more difficult to have this particular answer dissected then other opinions you have discussed here , I’m not sure. Anyway, yes do some more reading and writing on the psychoanalytic issues that concern you and we can certainly discuss it further. Gretchen
> David, I am so sorry about having mixed your comment up with one of Donal!!
> so wow, you are the one with twenty years of shotokan, I only got to the yellow belt in that one!
> pretty intensive, ipressive you have done it for 20 years.
> and well, glad to see you and Jack seemed to be talking about two different Maggies, smiley, so far, I don’t think I am demented yet, though my memory is not as good as it used to be for little daily things at least.
> for studying luckily it still seems to do a fairly good job.
>
> Phil, tinking of you! M
No problem, Maggie. Yes since 1987; the past decade solo after our dojo closed. I see it as a form of walking meditation. Good stretching regime. The only time I ever used my Karate was while practicing kata at a vacation resort. I wanted to be out of sight so as not to give a macho bragging impression and opted to go behind a grounds keeping shed. As a rounded the corner I caught a peripheral image of a ladder coming at my right eye.I raised by forearm in a jodan block fashion block and deflected it. The poor guy carrying the ladder was freaked out, not seeing me, either…laughing aloud…
david
Hi Everybody
I am feeling somewhat relived since I have written my piece yesterday. Kept wondering how come? Why the relief? Then I realised that it was because I put pen to paper. Where else can I say it the way IT really is?
On second thought it is not altogether feeling just lonely. A better description would be, feeling excruciatingly alienated.
Before I go on, to answer you Larry, about being a good primal patient.
I put to you that I have regular sessions on the phone. I come regularly to retreats. I listen to my therapist. Or at least that’s what I think. But we all know, that there is no such thing, as a good patient. I was really having myself on.
Now, back to the beginning. Yes. The real beginning of my therapy.
I remember attending large groups and being asked what do I want? Being told to ask for what I want. It floored me. How the fuck would I know what I want, other than stopping my constant headaches. Other than stop feeling BAD all the time.
Only now do I realise that I felt too little to ‘know’ what I want. I couldn’t have verbalised it anyway.
It’s like you are asking a crying baby, what do you want? What do you need? How the fuck would a baby be able to answer that? No language. No developed brain to be able to know, nor to verbalise.
Didn’t I come here, to the Primal Institute, for you to take care of me? You’d know what I need!
What I had to do to earn the above is throw up my present life ( back then), get on a 18 hour flight, find a job to feed my family, find a place to live. Start a new life, in other words.
And then it’s over to you Primal Therapist. You look after me. You take care of me. You do all the things that will make me whole. So that I can fly back to OZ in eighteen months a Happy Little Vegemite.
It’s a fair deal?
No wonder I have been feeling so black. It is slowly becoming obvious, that I will never be taken care of. No matter what I do. I can cry, beg, crawl, yell, scream, which possibly I did when I was in diapers.
It is amazing that during my first encounters at the beginning of my therapy, I said and felt the core of my pain, without knowing it, without realising. Was I dumb, that unaware?
Yesterday I started to feel that life wasn’t worth living in the state I was in. No energy, no will for anything, aching in my whole body, thinking that I am starting to feel like the way I look.OLD.
That would mean that I miss out on life altogether. No joy. No fun. No feeling connected to you, friends, family, anyone. No pleasure in anything. How bleak can it get. Or shall I say BLACK.
Don’t know where to from here. All I know that “I’am doing life”. I am not living my life. I want my life back. Now!
Time to go to sleep. It’s 10:58 at night, Monday. I am drained by all this.
Tom
Tom: Both your responses these last couple of day were very right on. I was tempted to reply to the first one by saying “That last line was IT” … “HELP”. I am sure that is why today you are feeling a lot better. We are all crying out one way or another … each in our own different ways. Keep on blogging. It sounds good to my ears. Correction:- I should say eyes … but if you yell it out laud enough I will might hear you … all the way from OZ 🙂 .
Take care Tom. Jack
Tom you go by ‘anonymous’ these days don’t know if you aware anyway just saying………….. and though you don’t talk to me does not stop me talking to you. It’s kinda funny I complain about people ‘ignoring’; me but then I am most unhappy because one particular person WON”T ignore me……………life is strange like that.
A rather un-necessary opening but I remember this thing at the PI of ‘ask for what you want’ and I had this deep feeling/knowledge and may even have said “what good is that going to do me – I am not going to get it anyway” This applied to my past, to my present life then both outside the PI and at the PI. Like OK I can ‘ask’ but I am not going to ‘get’
I guess I still feel that way deep down…………….still in that way I found the PI saying that to be quite ineffective. But I agree it is a DEEP problem……………and it’s MY problem.(This should ‘please’; Jack also it makes this post is nice and rounded an un-necessary opening and an un-necessary closing. My attempt at being ‘artistic’ even though that is also quite un-necessary I guess everything right now feels that way……………..necessary the word means ‘needed’ so not only did/do I not ‘get’ what I want I am also ‘un-needed’.
Aside from my own ‘needs’ I needed to be needed and I ‘acted out’ that a lot. If nobody needs me second best would be if they ‘needed’ me and they did in a way but mostly for their own reasons. So still not needed – not really that is.
Sorry put slightly wrong “If nobody needs me second best would be if they ‘needed’ me ” should have said if nobody meets my needs second best would be if they needed me” Just wanted that to make sense……………..
John Lennon’s song from memory “Mama I needed you/you didn’t need me”………….so to be ‘needed’ is important from birth and before life is a two way street. The infant needs the mother (of course) but the Mother ‘needs’ the infant too……………a beautiful balance. Could an infant be that ‘important’ it can and it is………….from small beginning comes great things…………………………
In “The Primal Scream” in the introduction, after Danny had related the story about Ortis: Arthur Janov thought; “oh! that’s worth a try:- call out for Mommy and Daddy”. Apparently Danny demurred, saying to the effect “what’s the point? we’ve done all that before … but Art insisted and eventually Danny started walking round the room calling “mommy, daddy”
The secret, as I see it, was not in thinking …” What’s the use? … I know I will never get them”. What it seemingly did to Danny was to throw right back to that moment in his babyhood when he perhaps did call out … and no one ever showed up.
Patrick; you stating:- “what was the point” was your attempt to NOT go there … it seemingly was/is, way too painful … yet as I see it, that was where your therapist was trying to take you … to that very moment way back, when you were calling them and NEEDING them.
The purpose was NOT TO GET IT …BUT TO RELIVE IT … IN ALL IT’S HORROR.
Primal therapy … in all it’s simplicity.
Jack
> David,
> I know you don’t need me to say this, but I feel truely sorry about the Shotokan mixup.
> I know how it feels to feel invisible and unimportant, a very bad feeling.
> once for me it also really felt like being ‘disposable’, not pleasant either..
>
> it is no excuse, but maybe it helps just a little to describe how i was, barely awake, working my way through about 50 comments that morning, still laying in bed on my back, trying to protect the laptop while listening to all the comments from the kittens that were jumping around all over each other and me..
>
> but again, just a description, no excuse.
> sorry to have trigggered that feeling..
> it is good to have you here, you have added a lot already to the blog, it would be really nice if one day you could come over to meet us in real life at some retreat, who knows, stranger things can happen.
> Maggie, the not so barbarian one, smiley
It’s really ok Margaret; maybe different on another day , ha ha, but that day it was no biggy. The other thing was that no one knew who done it, that is, who wrote it; even people who had read the comment. But I’m so long winded I probably bore people. Even if it’s coming from a feeling place it can, as someone wrote, come across as head trips. That no one recalled reading it would have been the biggy on a raw day. And if you had triggered a feeling,it’s all to my good. Can’t get out what isn’t in there, and if it’s my stuff rattling around in there and I can access it, that’s a gift.
dave
Hi all. I don’t comment on a lot of things either. Jack, I thought Vicki’s poem and gift funny and I laughed out loud. David, I knew that you were the martial arts fella and it seems to fit your personality. Too bad there isn’t a likes or dislike button so the contributor would know their comment was read. Or a “helpful” or “not helpful” selection button like Amazon has on reviews so we could participate at least minimally on our lazy brain-aging days.
Phil, have a speedy recovery and a fun vacation, bien vacaciones.
S
> Patrick,
> that sounds like a big feeling that has a huge overall impact, maybe even to finding therapy overall useless, from that very moment. if it is all hopeless to start with, if asking would not help, it is a very uneasy position, I can relate to that,needing something you should not have to ask for, is a bit similar and a familiar feeling to me.
> yours sounds even more basic still.
> hope you keep writing about this, it seems important.
> M
Hugs. They came so naturally and easily at the retreat and with friends afterwards. Hugs are such a normal, warm, reassuring human contact. Tonight my awareness is opening to how much I miss them, how much I need them, to how much I don’t want to live without them.
I sometimes still go to my bereavement group meeting that happens once a week. I think I go because it’s a once a week chance and the only place here for me to talk about feelings, and because at the end of the meeting we all exchange hugs. They’re the only hugs I get, except when I visit friends and family in Winnipeg a few times a year. This afternoon I caught up on excercising and didn’t go to the meeting tonight. Tonight I feel I’m emotionally hurting and physically aching, and realize that I want physical human contact. I want to hug and need a hug.
I’m realizing more how isolated I am. I need at least a hug every day and there is just none in my life. There was when Noreen was in it. I remember the hugs every day in LA and at the retreat and cry, because they felt so normal and right, the human connection, warm, reassuring, grounding, affirming. I cry because the ice in which I’ve been encased is starting to melt under the glare of primal vision that is letting me see I froze solid in childhood because there was no hugging for me.
When I lived with my aunt and uncle, I remember when I was about 3 my uncle picking me up, holding me, hugging me. I remember my 7 years older than me cousin, like an older sister, picking me up, holding me, hugging me. I remember at 4 moving back home to the farm. Something was wrong, but I couldn’t let myself know what it was. Now I can. There was no hugging. It caused long lasting psychic damage. They did not hug me, and I could not reach out to them for one. I did not matter to them. I couldn’t know. But the hurt registered, in my psyche, in my body, unconsciously. By their indifference, I knew but could not let myself be aware I did not matter to them. It was a shocking, impossible to know discovery, that I’m only now beginning to let myself feel the force of.
I don’t want to live in a life without hugging. I don’t have to be back there anymore, small, trapped, unable to get it, too helpless and overwhelmed to let myself know i need it. Now I can and have to get it in my life somehow.
It came so easily and naturally in the primal community at the retreat and in LA. I cry about that now, how easily and natural it should always have been, how there should have been hugging growing up, but how stark, empty, barren and lonely it was, and how cut off from human contact I feel here now. I wonder, are there huggers out there, where I live.
Larry: That is so devastatingly sad. Had that happened to me, I feel sure I would never have survived it
What else can I say ?
Jack
Group Hug, Larry. Sometimes when I see someone on tv in a hug I can almost feel it. Sometimes it’s just nice to touch something alive like my dog, warm and full of life. Touch is so necessary. Hugs never last long enough.
S
Hi Larry
You are inspirational the way you describe what is going on with you. The way you reach out. The way you take us in.
Do not stop under any circumstances. I am with you.
Tom
Larry, try this. 🙂
Ha. Truly though, the way he’s going about it doesn’t feel good I see an act of sensationalism more than caring or warmth.
Mmm; lots of people came for hugs tho..I loved the little girl hugging his leg 😀
I don’t like that the guy is blurring the line between caring, connecting, trusting, bonding hugging, and erotic, sexual, caring (or exploiting), connecting (or objectifying), trusting (or manipulating), bonding (or abusing) hugging. The little kid wouldn’t know the difference. Maybe a lot of adults don’t understand the difference. It took me 28 years of therapy before I felt safe enough to ask Gretchen for a hug. If Gretchen or Barry came to group showing all that skin, paraded in the centre of the room with their pants riding low on their hips, offering free hugs, I’d question their motives, lose trust in them as therapists and leave. I don’t trust the kind of hugs portrayed in the video. To me they are empty calories, lacking nourishment, are maybe even exploitive.
Hey, still watching House. this is one of the real good ones. lady under collapsed building and house has to amputate her leg. She says “How bad will it hurt?” House says” Like nothing you ever felt.before”. Nuff said.
Otto, I take t from your writing that you live in LA ?? I noticed in a recent post you said you would like to re enter therapy at PI but that was unlikely to ever happen. Why not ??
That is surely some wailing…
Hi Mum
There hardly a day goes by that I don’t think of going out to the cemetery to visit your grave. And next to yours, grandma’s, your mum, and down a few meters, dad’s.
But really, what I am thinking of is making contact with you. Don’t tell Barry, but I am almost convinced that if I am a good boy, I’ll find a way for you to be there for me. You will rise out of your grave, look at me and HOLD me. It can happen, can’t it? And then I will feel whole.
“I know you are now all laughing. But there is no end to which I’d go to have that happen to me. So what if I debase myself. All for a good reason. To have my mum. you’d do it too, wouldn’t you? I am not the only crazy person in the universe. Am I?
Well, if that doesn’t work, I’ll find an other way, to have my mum. That’s all I want. Just my mum. That’s not too much to ask for, is it?”
Mum! Please, please come to me.
Come and hold me. Feel me. So I can feel you too. OK mum? And then we will be one. Please mum. I’ll be a good boy. Promise. Just come to me.
I am hurting now.
“But don’t tell mum. Don’t scare her away, because she doesn’t know what to do with me. How to be there for me. So long as she is near me, somehow I’ll teach her how to be a good mum. OK?”
Mum, so long as you are near me, I’ll look after you and then you’ll be a good mum. OK?
Your loving son.
Tom
Tom,
How did you feel writing that?
Hi Jo
The longing for my “mum” is excruciating. It goes on non-stop, unabated. Nothing in the present fulfils me. IT is always something else that I long for.
It makes me even angry that I can still perform in the present, look after daily issues, however poorly at times.
I am constantly hungry. Nothing fulfils me. It is a monumental task to keep my weight down, as I am growing older, the few muscles I have left, are turning into fat. At the same time I constantly sabotage myself, as I will not exercise, or go for a walk , in the fear of running out of energy, and then……..I really won’t make it.
Nothing is ever “IT” in the present.
The last few days I have been extremely cold, even in bed. Shivering. And that’s not like me. I have always slept naked and I am always warm. It’s not like it is ever freezing in Sydney.
Is it my age? Am I approaching an other episode in my past that I have not been concious of? am I thinking too much?
But lately I’ve been questioning my life. What is it about? What’s the point of throwing myself into anything new, when I know that my history is to pick on something to avoid a feeling, avoid an awareness.
Has my life been that bad? Really?
I feel extremely weighed down, hopeless and no clue how to make it better.
Maybe I will go and have my next session with Barry in the cemetery again. Maybe then I will feel closer to my mum. Is that a crime?
Would kill for a moment of closeness with my mum. To be one with her. To feel her.
Will the longing ever stop? It is constant and unending.
Going to the Grumpies in a few minutes. Doing life.
Ahhhhhhh. It drives me crazy. This constant need.
Somebody put a stop to it.Please.
Tom
Tom, the cold and shivering aren’t symptoms of ageing, as far as I know. Your Grumpies’ll tell you …
I hope you get some relief writing everything down..
You’re hurting…
Jack,
I agree in general that the “what’s the point” response is the tip of the iceberg: at a deeper level our minds do not want us to go to the pain. It might be a self-fulfilling prophecy also when we begrudgingly and reluctantly try to talk to our parents or some similar thing the therapists might recommend, Also, we may use the “I tried that before and it did not get me into a feeling” line. I realized (mainly because Mark told me so often), we have to try those things many times and quite often nothing dramatic is going to happen. I guess it chips away at your defenses and gets you closer to feeling. I have also heard Mark say to me and others that you have to try the same thing many times: therapy is messy. All of this I realized in time was very true.
Also, I find that there is some hopelessness when a therapist suggests saying something to my mother or whatever, The tip of another iceberg for me…..
Bottom line, we may as well use all our opportunities to go towards the pain when prompted. It takes long enough, let’s face it 🙂
Donal
Donal: No-one, least of all Art Janov wants pain, But then there’s pain and pain. There’s the pain of repressed feelings … that’s bewildering, seemingly unattainable, just lurking there in the background … more or less all the time Then there’s that other pain, for me, just before sinking into the horror to end all horrors.
Then in hindsight, having gone there, there is this relief like no other. It’s not that even then; going there a second time is any less troubling. I don’t know how to explain this other than to say that “Yes! I’ll let it happen … just a little bit … then to be able to snap out of it before it goes to that “near death’ experience. That to me is the absolute worst.
So! is there this other part of me that says “ok but make it as painless as possible” Yep, yep and yep. Of course, there’ no way I can make it happen … not that in the final analysis, I will ever do that, cos for me it comes up more often than I would plan it. There will forever feel “there should be an easier way” From my experience so far … there ain’t.
Jack
Thank you for writing this Jack! It is what is truly ‘The good, the bad, the ugly’ and shall we add ‘the essential’ for emotional healing.
L.
Leslie: Yep, yep, yep and ….. yep
Jack
I work in a federal building on a beautiful university campus with lots of green space near a river flowing through the City. My fellow employees, there are probably 300, are for the most part pretty civil, decent, fair minded people. It’s kind of an ivory tower work environment.
My workmates and I go outside the building to one of the food vendors on campus for our coffee breaks, usually to a Tim Horton’s nearby. Recently the Tim Horton’s is closed for construction, so we went to the main food court on campus. I hadn’t been there for many years. I was shocked by the posters on the garbage bins and pillars. The posters showed a young woman in normal day wear reclined on a sofa, asleep. The poster says, if she didn’t consent, it isn’t sex. I was dismayed that the message wasn’t automatically self-evident, but that it had to be spelled out to the campus males.
I consider the summer students I work with to be the cream of the crop of young people with good integrity, sense of responsibility, work ethic, and social empathy. Most of them have been a real pleasure to work with, as are my two current male summer students in their very early 20’s. They told me recently of a party gone bad that they had attended and left early. The party was put on by a group of summer students working for our federal employer, students who I might sometimes pass by on my daily work routine. At the party someone slipped a drug into a young lady’s drink.
I couldn’t believe it. I asked, didn’t she have friends there looking out for her. Apparently she came with girlfriends who got drunk. She was the designated driver, with no intention of getting drunk. Someone slipped a drug in her drink. According to my summer students, the culprit was an outsider, a male friend of one of the male summer students at the party.
I was shocked. I could kill the guy. I could take a hammer to his privates. The reality of the outside world is such a jarring adjustment for me after the warm, caring empathy of the retreat. I still haven’t fully adjusted to being back here after the retreat. I think I don’t want to. I need to believe my world is a fairly nice place. Maybe it isn’t. How do I live in it then???
Crazy world out there…and this happened to me back in the ’70’s.
What happened, Jo?
I was alone in a bar in Spain, kids (8 and 14) in bed nearby, on the edge of town, chatting with the young bar man. I remember feeling relaxed, as it was a rural area, where friends lived nearby, and he knew my friends. I know I had one drink, as I’d promised myself that before going to bed myself. The next thing I remember was I was lying on the floor and a guy was on top of me using my body, and 2 others were there one doing up his flies..I started to struggle and could barely move. Another guy hovering near the door noticed I was awake, and said something I think to that effect to the others, as they all left suddenly. It took me a while to gather myself, I realised I’d been raped. I have no recollection of how I got there, as it turned out to be a shed at the back. I remember waiting for ages, too frightened, crawling out, heading back, check the kids, then bed. I was numb and shocked. The children were happy to go to a friends house with a pool, I walked alone up in the mountains I remember, trying to get back to feeling ‘normal’. I felt such shame, and never told anyone till one group about 7 years ago. I’m crying on and off as I write, I have hardly let myself go there.
Jo, What a terrible storyPhil
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 13:56:41 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
The bastards! I want them to suffer.
Larry
Phil, Larry, I appreciate your comments.
It’s good that the event surfaced again because I found there was a lot more to feel about it.. I’m saddened that I carried so much, on top of childhood pain, through decades.
Shocking and sickening to read about how you had to suffer that night and onwards Jo.
Wish I could hug you in person right now.
ox L.
Leslie, thank you .. I can do with one .
The question of “RAPE” is a subject that I feel is in serious need of discussion not only academically but between the sexes. Further the subject should be started at an age perhaps before puberty between boys and girls. If there is to be an adult involved it would require, as I see it, the adult remain COMPLETELY NEUTRAL unless the discussion began to get out of hand, then the discussion should end, temporarily, and maybe some rules imposed.
Where I feel a lot of this goes “out of whack” is that sex itself is such a taboo subject, leaving both sexes little knowing how the other feels, particularly over sexual encounters. Education is not where I see real knowledge on the matter, dependent upon what constitutes education.
Being a gay man I have little to say on the sexual arousal of the sexes to one another, but I do feel I have some sense of knowing the opposite sex since I was a member of a family of two boys and two girls each of us one year apart in ages. Since we all four shared one bedroom, all the way to us each leaving home, and as little children were bathed together, I knew exactly what a girls body looked like. Also we were lucky that my mother did not keep sex and where we each came from, from being discussed.
It is my feeling that this misunderstanding on the part first of young boys, then later it being ONLY a discussion between boys (presumably the same applied to girls). However in my case when the girls began to reach puberty they did demand some privacy … but not to the exclusion of us being totally separated.
Maybe others could fill me and the rest of the blog in, with their feelings and ideas on the matter. Merely making it illegal seemingly, has not solved the problem. Education as currently being practiced does not seem to offer any solutions either. It is, after all, a HUGE FEELING experience
I do feel it would be a worthwhile subject.
Jack
Jack,What I think is that rape is more about acting out anger than sexual feelings.It certainly isn’t about making love. Discussions of thetype you mention might be worth trying but I’m doubtful of the possible value.Rapists have issues that need to be dealt with on a personal level. It should be made clear that it’s unacceptable and criminal type behavior butthat doesn’t necessarily seem to deter strong impulses driven by sexualized pain.Phil Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:33:22 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sometimes I wonder if we don’t diagnose people who use people, in the case of sex want to ejaculate inside another person regardless of their feelings and rights, with too much of our clinical eye. There are those bastards male and female who simply take what they want in terms of gratification and then there is I think another whole class of insane who get off on degrading , even murdering victims. The only remorse I ever saw was getting caught. And in all of the in family cases both mom and dad, 90% of the time, blamed the kid. And preferred surrendering the children over separating from the abusive parent. In 20% of the cases both parents were perpetrators, in every case both parents were involved, one consciously or unconsciously setting it up.
There will always be people who don’t care about the feelings of others and will take what they want from them. They should be given the chance to reflect upon, feel and make up for the hurt they caused, or shipped to another planet of other people like themselves.
Larry: Whilst I understand your sentiments; I don’t agree to your method.
I personally would like to attempt a means of prevention. Not sure what that could be, but I see our current methods to not be working … and fear the worst..
I suspect you think of me as being misguided … and don’t wish to argue that. But somehow, somewhere, I hope there is an answer.
Jack
Some people are genetically determined sociopaths/psychopaths, some are that way due to brain injury, and some are due to emotional trauma. We could prevent them by aborting in the womb the genetic deviants, by preventing brain injury, and by preventing emotional trauma.
I share the sentiment..
You must be getting braver Jo. I’ve never seen you write anything as personal on the blog before. Sounds like writing about it was helpful to you.
It’s too bad that back then you were the one who felt shame, when it was they who behaved as reprehensible, insensitive, cowardly subhumans.
Sometimes I wish I carried a gun, or at least a two-by-four, to use on people like that in the act.
25 years ago one of my summer students came in late to work. He volunteered as a big brother. He had been biking along a main street when a car pulled over out of traffic and parked at the curb in front of them. A lady came scrambling out of the passenger side, tripped and crawled onto the sidewalk. The man inside driving grappled with her as she tried to escape the vehicle. Seconds after she fell he was on top of her and started stabbing her. All my summer student could do was shield his little brother’s eyes from the scene. Needless to say at work the summer student was in shock for awhile. How helpless he must have felt. How handy a gun or two-by-four would have been to use to stop the perpetrator.
Larry, it’s true that I’ve made some progress.
or a well placed kick to the balls.
Last year a senior dental student at Dalhousie University attempted to blow the whistle on fellow senior students who were participating in an on line blog, ” The Gentlemen’s Club,” discussing their female class mates in sexual predatory terms. From the description it sounded criminal. The whistle blower, married, with children, suffered most. The identities of the participants were protected. Police decided to let it be settled in house. The university administration closed ranks and what amounts to a sexual consent sensitivity course was imposed, to which the majority of the aggrieved, at risk, female students were announced to agree. The whistle blower, a non participant was ordered to take the same course, and being self identified has the most career ramifications. These predators were allowed to graduate and now will be leering at and potentially offending anesthetized patients.
For your health Jo I visiting it until you are no longer their victim is the healthy choice. The bastards don’t deserve another second of your life. .
A raped toddler survivor, I cannot do push ups unless in a group setting. I have no strength and a feeling of foreboding terror engulfs me, and my feeling of incompetence.
I have felt the physical pan, but never what else remains.
Sex was just a game, according to my older teen educators, that everyone wanted to play. ” No,” was just a coy way girls said , “Yes.” They didn’t want to be seen as wanting to. My only other bit of education was walking in on my mom getting off the toilet, asking her why she didn’t have , ” a cowboy,” like me and her reply that she was bad when she was my age and, ” they cut it off.” She was also a child multiple rape victim, by the Baptist minister.
Professionally I also know that there are perhaps as many female perpetrators of both small boys and girls.
Dave, thank you; you were so young …
Hi Dave
I just don’t know how you survived. Just don’t know how you kept your sanity.
Somebody, very knowledgeable on these matters, said that these perpetrators cannot be “fixed”. Ever. They’re damaged beyond repair. The best you can do is keep them in isolated cells for the rest of their lives. Once they get caught.
Tom
YUP !!!
So sad you grew up in a world of crazy people.
I should be a case study as to why I turned out a decently socialized functional and not a Charles Manson clone.
> reading Larry’s post about the hugs made me realize to which degree my kittens fullfill that need, them for me and me for them.
> it became specially clear on the moment the one that had remained just a tiny bit cautious at times, started really coming up to me just for cuddles and well, cat hugging, like when they put their front paws on your face spontaneously, without claws, just kind of an affectionate gesture.
> when he did that it really felt like a load fell off my shoulders, a load that hadn’t been even very clear up to that moment, but the bond with both of them finally falling well into place with all the trust and affection it can keep developing, made me all of a sudden feel so happy and relieved, like things suddennly turned right again.
> I had been waking up that night feeling my fear, trying not to focus it this time on anything in particular, which seemed to make it more threatening, more like a physical kind of thing which originally it probably was.
> it is just the onset of the Big fear, the I won’t make it fear, but that onset already felt pretty daunting.
>
> but then the kitten thing changed my mood at waking up, they had a few kitten illnesses too, no, not from vaccinating, they had it early on as small kittens and still need to get completely rid of it, but they are getting better now, full of energy and so endearing and funny.
>
> they are tiny still, but managed to work out al by themselves how to use the cat doors, which is impressive at their age and without being showed.
> haha, I am proud of my little guys, smiley!!
> they look like two rascals, whitish with like a dark mask on their faces, and a dark tail, and just a small dark spot here and there.
> M
Sounds like fun and comfort for all Margaret 🙂
Congratulations x2 !!
Margaret, cute kitties! I’m jealous!
> dear Jo, don’t know what to say, except I feel I wish I could comfort you by putting my arms around you.
> it is so courageous of you to write it here. it sounds so very horrible, were you able to tell it to anyone at all at that time?
> ox M
Margaret, that’s so sweet, thank you..
I didn’t tell anyone at all till the group. It got tucked away, and I was a single parent, so juggling domestic life went on..
Hi Jo
I am with Larry on this. I could also kill anyone who would do such a thing. And for you to have to live this most of your life. What a weight on your shoulders, and in your soul.
Tom
Thank you Tom..yes, what a weight.
The trouble with allowing an outburst of anger is that is clouds everything – for example – it feels so wrong NOT to be acknowledging Jo and her pain right now. This seems to be the result of a guilt-trip-how-do-you-think other-people-are-feeling-and-don’t-you-think-you-should-think-about-how-they-might-need-you-to-do-for-the-right-thing-now upbringing. I can’t keep living that way. I do not want my actions to be shaped by the expectations of others. I have had enough of that servitude!
[Please do not take this as anything personal to you Jo – as you know, I am far from unsympathetic or un-affected by your story – I just cant feel or respond to that kind of hurt when I am stuck in another]
The angry viciousness that I can vomit over people deserving of my ire is terrible. I admit – it has even made me laugh in hindsight, when unleashed on perv hecklers in a white van, but my brother once crowned me with the title of having a ‘diamond tipped tongue’ because I could be so sharp and cutting. Never mind ‘F’ words and regular insults – lets cut straight to the most private personal hurtful stuff! Lets ‘cut ’em’! Stab deep and hurt ’em!
I did it once to my wonderful woman – but never again will I ‘let go’like that on her! I feel so bad about that even all these years later.
There is a fitting visual analogy of screwing up a piece of paper into a ball…. and then imagine trying to smooth it out once again. Trying to make it pristine and flat once again is impossible. It will always be crumpled. THAT is how I feel about getting angry AT someone! If I let go and ‘say how I feel’ I might ‘break something’ permanently! Mar it forever so all I am left with is a crumpled piece of paper. Damaged permanently.
And yet I crave it! I want it! I want the release and the relief. I want the shock in their eyes, and to lash out with the hurt. I enjoy the cuts and the skill I have to ‘see’ the worst thing anyone could possibly say! When I am angry like I am now I want to let it all go.
….and then how would I feel tomorrow looking at all the reams of screwed up paper
…. and now I am thinking of who deserves all of this anger? who is the originator of all this hurt that sits like a festering sore within me?
I can see a bloodline…
I have to trace it back
but I know where it started
Fiona, You left us hanging….. who is it who deserves all your anger?Phil
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:58:58 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Fiona – You are so clear and open to all that is there for you.
Painful – but incredible!
L.
Pretty awful to be afraid to ever get angry because there is so much anger and hurt festering in you.
It’s ok Fiona..
So important for you to write….very clear and excruciating
Hi Fiona
Oh my. Let it rip. Don’t hold back. It is outrageous what was done to you.
Larry and I will be right behind you.
( Here I go talking on Larry’s behalf)
Tom
Just sticking this CDC info on Lyme Disease in here; new information:
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),
An estimated 300,000 Americans are diagnosed with Lyme disease each year, and the prevalence is rising.
Since national surveillance began in 1982, the number of annual Lyme cases reported has increased nearly 25-fold.2 The disease is also spreading out geographically.3
Between 1993 and 1997, 43 counties across the US had a high incidence of Lyme disease. By 2012, the number of hotspots had skyrocketed to 182. As reported by Time Magazine:4
“‘Lyme disease is not only becoming more rampant in its normal hotspot of the northeast United States, it’s spreading across the country,’ a new report5 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns.
There is no definitive test for Lyme Disease until well into it’s progression. And the symptomology
is far more diverse than the original classic description. Most infected people may not have the characteristic rash. It mimics many other culprits, fibromyalgia, arthritis, cellulitis, etc., leaving it thr most under diagnosed and undiagnosed serious infectious disease. The situation is further worsened by there being so few practitioners who know how to treat Lyme Disease. Practitioners should contact the CDC to obtain the proper protocol.
‘Over time, the number of counties identified as having high incidence of Lyme disease in the northeastern states increased more than 320 percent,’ researchers write…
They also note that the disease is appearing in states where it has never been recorded before. One big reason why Lyme disease is spiking, according to the CDC report: climate change.”6
Eliminating Predators Have Allowed Lyme Disease to Spread and Become More Prevalent
While deer usually gets the blame for spreading tick-borne disease, rodents are actually the primary threat. According to Dr. Richard Ostfeld, a disease ecologist at the Lyme disease research center:
“The resurgence of deer population is an overblown factor. Our research suggests that white-footed mice are more important numerically. Basically, mice are a fantastic host for both the tick and [the bacteria that causes Lyme].”
Ticks are not born with the Lyme spirochetes. It picks up the bacteria when feeding on an infected host.8 Ostfeld’s research indicates that white-footed mice infect 75-95 percent of larval ticks that feed on them, while deer only infect about one percent.
Urban sprawl and hunting has eliminated many of the mice’s natural predators, allowing populations to grow, and with them comes infected ticks. This year, ticks are epidemic in certain areas of the US, including Illinois.
The CDC has identified high-risk counties in 17 states, including Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, Pennsylvania, Virginia, New York, Iowa, Michigan, and Minnesota.
I am just so exhausted. The heat, the mugginess, my old feeling of exhaustion. I am tired of everything. I cant stand work. These pets we have are so needy. The cat who won’t eat, I am too tired to force feed it. I am too tired to write down when I give it its medicine. The other fucking cat meowling howling at my bedroom door. His cryptocaucus medicine, did I give it to him today or not? All these illnesses we are having seem to be bird or mice feces-related, at least from what I see on the internet. I have mice in the garage, I have a giant tree in the backyard and big spots of white bird shit from some hawks that come around. I walk in the park with the dogs where there are tons of dirty ducks, pigeons, and fart birds, and reclaimed watered lawns. If man thinks he is at the top of the food chain, he better think again. The bugs will outlive us all. I could have screamed in the car because pain is rising (around Otto having died). I could not scream since I was driving Z to get some food and she does not like to hear my pain. I saw a Dachshund puppy in the hall of the hospital today, and I could feel the pain coming up and I squelched it so easy. They don’t want me crying or screaming at work, even though there was a patient roaming around the halls laughing maniacally. I am tired from holding this pain in, but now tonight 9:35 pm, I have no desire to feel it. Fuck this shit. PT is difficult no matter what.
Otto, I had to smile at your summing up of the food chain!! But, god..how difficult..day to day stuff sounds
I will write down here as it get’s too ‘skinny’ The blog seems to have taken a ‘law and order’ type turn which to me in never particularly a good sign. People usually go to ‘law and order’ when they are out of answers
Larry – when you talk about ‘aborting deviants’ etc it has a bad ring to it. On primal therapy/theory’s own premises I thought anything and everything could not just be ‘understood’ but it could also be ‘cured’. Now we seem to be heading into the area of punishments and even drastic cruelty. If these ‘perpetrators’ are so cruel your ‘punishments’ don’t sound that different. Also I don’t care for the distinctions you make a lot now about the difference between ‘primal people’ and just ‘regular people’. I guess I am tempted to ‘joke’ I would not mind so much if there WAS a difference lol. When you talked about the Iraqi hair dresser guy and how you ‘dismantled’ his ideas or world view or whatever……………..it sounds so condescending like you KNOW so much or KNOW something he does not. Do you? Where does all this ‘special knowledge’ come from and again my little ‘joke’ I would not mind if it WAS ‘special knowledge’ but I can’t see it from here……………if primal people are so different and so much better the world has been waiting for over 40 years now and we still don’t see the ‘impact’ or the ‘evidence’
Tom – when you talk about ‘locking’ people up and so on…………….I am tempted to ‘joke’ (a bad habit I have) of saying you mean like Palestinians?. You said “Somebody, very knowledgeable on these matters, said that these perpetrators cannot be “fixed”. ” OK going along that way of thinking can Israels ever be ‘fixed’ or do we just have to suffer them fomenting and creating new wars, murdering and ethnically cleansing the people who have lived their for centuries and whose land it is not theirs, spinning disinformation and lies forever and ever………………..see where I am going with this?. To me you’all have a bad habit now of calling the kettle black the pot seems just as black if not blacker to me.
It’s fine of course if people want to say all of these things that’s what the blog is about. But to me it shows a ‘movement’ running out of ideas and I suppose it is hardly surprising…………….because frustration sets in due to the lack of promises fulfilled. Janov set primal off on a narrow path and it seems to be getting narrower………………….
Patrick
We are lucky to have you around to keep us on the straight and narrow.
It’s good to have you point out the error of our ways.
We are blessed with your wisdom about the lack of progress in Primal Therapy and the error of our Primal Therapists.
Your wisdom outshines all of our collective experience and knowledge to date.
I bow to your vast and deep knowledge of the issues affecting these stupid Jews and the havoc they bring to the peace loving Arabs.
Keep up the good work. You are a born to lead us to the Griffin light.
Tom
humanitarian. A blessing to us idiotic mortals.
I can’t wait to join the Griffin Cult, as soon as you announce you are opening your doors to us, wayward primal dilitants.
I imagine Arthur Janov will be your first applicant. He will see the error if his ways and now to your wisdom.
Oh mighty Patrick. Hope you will bless us all and forgive us for our
Thank you Brother Tom. My ‘clinic’ will be opening ‘soon’ a few million light years from now and in a galaxy far far away………….but I am taking ‘contributions’ already! Right now here today…………..please send the all to “C/O “The Ultimate Guru” PO box something or other, Somewhere or other, Main St, USA
I had kind of ‘decided’ to stay off the blog for a while at least…………but for some reason it’s hard to do that. What is the reason?
It’s like (in my mind) I am trying to keep PT from going ‘off the rails’ but now I think well what if it HAS gone off the rails? I think that is a big ‘old feeling’ for me……………trying to fix something that is already maybe un-fixablely broken
I wonder if that will get me a ‘pass’ from Jack.(I have related it to an ‘old feeling’)………………who knows I know he is not strong on ‘law and order’ also so I have that on my side but probably not enough. With Jack it never is enough at least from me
I think what is so hard for me to stay off the blog is WHERE ELSE can you do just say whatever is on my mind……………………
Quote:- “I had kind of ‘decided’ to stay off the blog for a while at least…………but for some reason it’s hard to do that. What is the reason?”
I don’t think it’s too hard to figure out why you kept off the blog and equally, not that hard to figure out why you couldn’t.
Have you given Gretchen’s question a second thought … before it gets lost to your mindful oblivion?
Another quote:- “I think that is a big ‘old feeling’ for me……………trying to fix something that is already maybe un-fixablely broken”. I would guess that is correct … BUT (just MY feeling) what got broken and is un-fixable is your own childhood … that, I suspect, is what Leslie Pam tried to guide you towards … least ways “reliving”. It would seem you have made a transference from there; to it being “Primal Therapy that’s gone off the rails” There!!! I made the pass.
Yet another quote:- “I think what is so hard for me to stay off the blog is WHERE ELSE can you do just say whatever is on my mind……………………”. You could try expressing your FEELINGS … but then that may completely BLOW your mind. Just a thought
One last quote for today:- “I came here ……. 37 years ago, now from all appearances he was married to Vivian at the time and for several more years after that as far as anyone knew at least”. Be careful; appearances can be deceiving.
Jack
No you didn’t make/give me the ‘pass’ you as usual DENIED me the ‘pass’. What else is new? Nothing ‘new’ for you for sure it’s just as case of yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep………………at least you ‘agree’ with yourself if not with much else
Yep.
Jack
Speaking of something on my mind…………..I just read this
From Art Janov’s latest blog about his wife France
“And oh yes, she is my wife of 42 years”
I mention this because in the video with Ortiz he also says that. I was inclined to think oh well just a mistake but here he is saying it again and putting it in writing now. OK let me check this……………I came here in September 1978 which was almost 37 years ago, now from all appearances he was married to Vivian at the time and for several more years after that as far as anyone knew at least.
So does he mean 32 years? But if he does why has now said over 40 twice that I know of. I am sure people will find this ridiculous of me to even mention this…………………but it just seems a bit typical of the guy at least an ‘exaggerator’ if not an out right ‘liar’ though I would say an outright liar also………………It is never good to be ‘led’ by a person who has a problem telling the truth…………….
Damn SPAM !
You might think so Leslie and I can even see why you might say that………………still it is a small matter but Janov is an atrocious ‘exaggerator’ always was always will be it seems. All that I say above is ‘factual’ even if I accept the ‘importance’ of it could be questioned.
Still Janov is so slippery in ‘important’ things it is nice for me at least to ‘catch’ him in a clear un-truth………………and my feeling is there are many more (lies) where that comes from……….
It seems you keep going down the same rabbit hole … expecting a different result.
All there is down there is the Queen of Hearts, The Mad Hatter, and The Griffin.
Jack
Psychology Today reported them separated in the early/mid 70’s; but, ” still working well together.”
Patrick I’m not at all familiar with any slippery side things to Dr. Janov. What are they ? Being 91, an occasional slip might be a factor. Although he sounds perfectly acute and articulate on his blog.
david
David – to me he has been an ‘exaggerator’ pretty much from Day 1.It hit me like a ton of bricks when I came here, like this is NOT what was ‘advertised’. But my ‘belief’ was strong very strong even so I ‘over looked’ a lot. Actually my belief is still strong that’s the funny thing. But my feeling now is primal needs to be taken out of the institution(s) that kind of corral or control it. And that includes Janov himself as strange as that may sound. In ‘spiritual’; matters truth is very important. Someone who fudges and exaggerates and depicts his ‘success’ un-realistically and hides and literally buries his failures is not a trust worthy person..That’s very basic. This example about how long he has been married is a trivial one but still seems a bit typical of him………………loose with the truth. That is such a big problem for me at least.And co-incidence or not I have noticed the same quality in what I call ‘true believers’ you would pretty HAVE to be loose with the truth to overlook all that has gone on over the years.
Quote:- “Actually my belief is still strong that’s the funny thing.” It sure is a very funny thing; and not funny ha ha.
How is it possible to keep on believing in something and failing to experience it ??????????
Unless one acknowledges that the act of believing, literally speaking means:- TO NOT KNOW. Once you know, “belief” becomes redundant.
More crooked thinking … alas.
Jack
I truly wonder who “is failing to experience” here……………I know you have ‘anointed’ yourself and ‘appointed’ yourself…………..does not make it true………………PR is a funny thing it often even fools the people who perpetrate it…………….it’s very strange for you to just ‘decide’ I don’t experience something just because I have a problem with the ‘official’ primal world………………that’s not so much crooked thinking as very limited and blinkered thinking…………………but keep on cawing your un-musical hate……………….PR man…………..
I was even aware as I used the word ‘belief’ it would be a red rag to the self anointed and self appointed blood hound of primal………….as are and would be words like ‘think’ or ‘mind’…………….I am dealing with someone who mostly just ‘reacts’ and in a highly defensive and aggressive way all at the same time…………..that’s not good PR for you if you could only see PR man………….talk about being predictable…………..all I have to do to rouse this hound is use the WORD ‘think”……………..it’s ONLY a word dude……………..no need to get hung up on words you need it seems to get more hung up on someone hung……………….this is all ‘substitute’ activity for you dude…………..as I say it’s only ‘words’………………
It was you who admitted to having failed, so I just put your own words back to you.
Other evidence would be ‘paying out’ to go to a retreat and then, I gather, leaving on day one, just because someone refused to shake your hand. Also thinking “what’s the point” when your therapist asks what you hope to get. Berating the founder for personal reasons and completely ignoring what he discovered. You surely must have thought something from your squat in Brixton before coming across the pond and paying out all the money you did … now seemingly regretting it. Yet you seem to persist in “believing”. Isn’t that what RELIGION is all about????? since there is no proof
It sure is all just words … BUT just scattering words on the blog, with seemingly little “think-through” suggest a failure to communicate. In the end, all there is to communicate are FEELINGS.
I am eagerly awaiting for you to tell Gretchen and the rest of us what it is that like about blogging here. It seems from the way I read you, that you are in perpetual state of misery, which makes me all the more curious to find out why you continue. Perhaps is sort of masachism. It’s hard to fathom any other reason.
Lighten up dude. I personally love the banter … can’t you tell.
Jack
Tom, very funny. Jo, though I’ve never met you, was so moved by your account.
It seems a matter of the shut-offed ones using their buried pains to victimize someone. To take it out on someone else and become the perpetrator, totally unconscious of where it comes from. They become less human objectifying people. I think the punishment (as they would see it) would be to lock them up and work a therapy where they descended down to the feelings that made them monsters, to relive their initial pains. If jails were more rehabilitation than holding cells then we could re-humanize more offenders. But as others have said, psychopaths are practically untreatable; so the offender would have to have a conscience somewhere in their self.
Sylvia – I think this business of ‘psycho-paths’ is over done. I remember once Janov said they could not be treated but a lot of it is a matter of ‘definition’ or more importantly who is doing the defining. A case could be made that Janov himself is a ‘psychopath’…………..lure people with a bunch of exaggerated promises but WORSE never to ‘back off’ or admit he might have ‘exaggerated’ To me that pretty much is a ‘psychopath’ even if I don’t agree with calling people nasty names. Like Tom with ‘locking people up’ it is mostly a matter of who has the power.
Quote:- “……….even if I don’t agree with calling people nasty names” But you do …. nothing else.
Jack
My definition of a psychopath would be someone who is criminal who tries to hurt someone–murder, rape, someone beyond redemption. But there are benign psychopaths in my opinion. Someone who simply does not have empathy for another, unable to relate to that person’s pain. And perhaps only see things in the light of how it may benefit them.
I’m sure there are in the psychological dictionary a more accurate definition.
At work today I was looking at a copy of “New York” magazine whileeating lunch. On the cover were photos of 35 women who say BillCosby raped them. Their stories are believable. According to the article there are a total of 46women now with these accusations against Cosby. Probably everyonealready knows about this, his method is to use drugs. It seems likehe’s a psychopath of some kind. I think psychopaths can function in society and fool people into thinking they’re normal.Phil
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 18:56:39 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes, Phil. Felt physically ill about what he did; a true wolf in sheep’s clothing. Totally unsuspecting women. He seems to have a power fixation, predatory personality lobotomized from its original source probably.
By lobotomized I mean he is so ingrained in his abhorrent activities that he can never go back to the reasons they came about. So much for big words.
S
Jack, you are always looking for thinking outside the box. Here is some that surprised me.
“Measures such as anti-bullying programs and monitoring young offenders are not yielding success, says Stephanie van Goozen, ar Cardiff University, UK. Her team decided to try a different approach, using the theory that people who harm others do so because they can’t tell that their victim is distressed. Research has shown that adult psychopaths struggle to recognise others’ fear.
Van Goozen’s team trained half of a group of 50 boys who had been convicted of a crime to better recognise facial expressions.
They found that the training significantly improved the boys’ ability to recognise fear, anger and sadness,..
…in those who’d had training, the crimes were significantly less violent and severe, tending to involve theft rather than physical aggression.”
Wow, surprised to hear that…. lol… child sexual abuse protection programs, ” Just Say No, ” were a failure; placed some responsibility on the target, and 3 months after exposure all that remained was that the kids had disconnected fears . Like all of the ineffective sensitivity programs which give the image that management is doing something to fix the problem.
I would suggest the reason they don’t work is that the dialogue is aimed at the wrong part of the brain, the conscious mind, where as you all know their behaviour is directed by the unconscious mind, the one that they don’t talk to. It seems possible to communicate with the sub conscious but it won’t listen if it is preached to or addressed in negative expressions. I use it to recall ,” stored, ” info and song lyrics, and poetry I once , ” knew,” / had memorized; whatever that is…
AS often guilty, I only read half of the salient comments. Larry I wonder if looking at the pictures of emotional state faces, might make an impression, a feeling impression, reaching their subconscious. ??? That old saying , ” You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, ” has some wisdom to it. Even clinical wisdom. I treated my abused horses with kindness. If that didn’t work, nothing would.
Larry: I find most of the studies I encounter, start of with a theory and then extrapolated from that theory whatever they can to back up the theory. The complete reverse to what I feel I know, Art Janov did. The theory came well after seeking to explain something he, in his honesty and integrity, could not explain immediately, in spite of his 17 years in his therapeutic practice.
Let me relate something from my own teen years that happened to me. My mother asked me to go and get my brother who she could see climbing onto a roof of a nearby building through the window. I went off and told him to come down and he refused. So! I climbed up after him and started to pull on his leg, and my brother did come down and ran into my mother and said I was bullying him. When my father arrived later that day from work my mother related the story to my father. I immediately ran to the bathroom and sat on the toilet hoping that my father would leave me alone whilst I thought out a strategy.
My father came bursting into the bathroom and beat me up for bullying. I was so distressed, but I remember very clearly going onto my bed afterwards and I said to myself. I will never cry again.
My bother and I, in out adulthood, did discuss many of these incident and it was only then I realized he had a whole different take on it all
It wasn’t until one lover left me that I cried for the first time, as I remember, in my adult life.
The morale of the story for me was:- who is calling who the bully? Some child having been so hurt in childhood will act-it-out on another, since he/she could never be direct with the parent. That to me is the essence of what I feel Janov means when he states that trauma to the fetus, baby, young child alters the brain to a very profound degree. There’s no reversing the damage. there is, as I perceive it, only the means to re-live it and hence bring the now adult child to his/her own insights with respect to the past. I contend … nothing else will effectively change behavior.
Jack
The boys trained in the study I quoted might be the benign type of psychopath that Sylvia mentioned on July 30.
For me the gist of much of the recent blog discussion boils down to there being people out there who would hurt me or would hurt people who I care about, and it drives me crazy that I might be helpless to stop them.
Noreen died almost 6 years ago. My boss retires today, and my role at work is fading. I feel that I’m being stripped of the mainstays that gave my life meaning and purpose. I’m being robbed, my life ripped apart, and I have no control over it. I’m left back at the beginning again, having to start my life all over again. I cry sadness about the endings.
I scream feeling afraid, having to find my way and build my life in an unknown future, again, alone.
I scream as a small child or baby having to cope with change alone, when she should be there. But there’s no one and I am very vulnerable. I need her. I can’t survive on my own alone.
After ascending from the childhood feelings, after understanding and being relieved of some of the emotional charge of their terror through briefly reliving and feeling them, I feel more capable of getting on with the change coming to my life, more realistically, more competently, in my world that for me is mostly benign most of the time. After ascending from the childhood feelings, I’m able to feel it’s possible to find happiness, meaning, and even love out there, all over again.
Fantastic Larry😀
Let’s try this……………….’mind’…………..’think’………………’belief……………………will this make the blood hound chase.?………..if the past is anything to go by……………………….yes………………….and with this ‘mindset’ (that should get work to get him going)………………….the past is everything……………predictable and controlled and attempt to be controlling………………..
Blood hounds of course is a very old and ‘respectable’ English tradition………………they started it with hares but moved on to humans and as I said before they practiced it and perfected it on the Irish and then carried it onto the rest of the world………………still seem to be practicing it on the Irish………………well I am glad this Irish has the strength and self respect not to just lay down and get bloodied and killed………………..
Larry,
You last post makes it clear how the present put you in those old feelings. I am glad you are getting some relief.
Donal
I feel disconnected. Even my response to Larry above was an attempt to connect with those on the blog. In retrospect, Larry, I do not feel connected to what you are going through: it only makes sense on an intellectual level to me. At this time, I can only relate to it in the context of a cognitive understanding of how therapy works.
Just let out some anger about reactions I had to 2 specific people today. The feeling is that I am being overpowered by being out-talked, and cannot even express my own feelings never mind defend myself successfully. The reality was not all that dramatic: nothing at all to the third party bystander. I am anticipating that I will need to argue my case with these people.
I like that kind of honesty…………….not that common here IMHO.But then again Donal is Irish more ‘truthful’ without even trying just an everyday way of being……………..not much of a PR man and thank God for that……………..PR is a son of a bitch to deal with as well since you are always dealing with PR…………..questions about PR will be met with more PR
low and behold I just got a cal from Larry.
“This is Larry speaking.”
Guru – Welcome back you HAVE been missed at least to speak for myself. Did you get any ‘contributions’ but I told people to send them c/o “The Ultimate Guru”……………..does it also need to say “Superstar” in it. Plus I was not sure about your address and something send to a faraway Galaxy would need to be precise I imagine…………….
Whenever I spoke with Larry over the phone it always commenced with the default salutation: “This is Larry speaking.” There’s nothing wrong with it at all, but it always struck me as slightly amusing and distinctive for some reason, perhaps a distant conference room feel to it. I hope Larry doesn’t mind my saying this. Nothing important.
Thank you for your well wishes, Patrick, but I don’t have much more to say. Just…not much of a point to it. Not to dredge up old frictions for you because I do see you as a much-needed Devil’s Advocate to keep Janov on his toes, but even I had to admit you weren’t very nice to Vicki the other week.
One time many years ago I told Vicki something that I didn’t imagine would be an insult, but she was hurt by it and it still bothers me slightly even to this day. Did Vicki ever do anything bad to you, Patrick? I may not agree with Vicki on some things, but she was always nice to me and I do have fond memories of visiting her house way back when.
U. superstar G: Quote:- “I do see you as a much-needed Devil’s Advocate to keep Janov on his toes, ”
I doubt Arthur Janov even reads this blog and even if he did, I sure doubt that Patrick is keeping him on his toes. My take:- neither you nor Pactrick is capable of that.
It is my feeling that Patrick wishes to re-organise Primal Thereapy such that it makes it easy for him to do the therapy … finally. The current method I suspect Patrick finds too terryfying …. so! needs to make it easier … then he can claim sucess on two fronts. First his own ego that he was able to improve it, and second to feel he’s now done it.
I feel there is something going on with both of you about Art Janov. Just me feeling however.
Jack
A smooth baritone “Hmm.” exhaled with a wistful half-smile is all I care to summon here. Anything further is just wasted effort.
You are truly sui generis, Jack. Barry said you were special, and I agree!
I noticed you’ve been away for a long time, UG.
I’ve been preoccupied and busy with various things. I hope your retirement carries forward well for you, Larry. I’m confident you will find plenty of meaningful activities and experiences to enrich yourself with despite the newly-empty schedule ahead of you.
Send me an email or call sometime. I’m just going to dart in and out of here once in a while, myself.
Another world is calling you………………
I hope anyone here does not feel ‘intimidated’. I mean if say Leslie and Jo and say Sandy can all carry on on their “Love Boat”………….they need pay no attention to the likes of Jack and myself just let us carry on in our ‘Hate Boat”………….it takes all kinds to make a world as they say…………….it’s all good lol……………..
I had a good conversation with Larry last night. It really helped to talk to him about the feelings I wrote about above just before he called me. I also like listening to him talk about his life and feelings.
Donal
USG,
Long tome no hear…hope you are doing well.
Donal
Hi Donal:
Yes, long time no hear. Thanks for your blessings. I hope you find what you need here on the blog. With the exception of two well-defined and contained problems for me to solve, all else is as well as can be expected at the moment.
time, not tome.
Ultimate Superstar Gurus can indeed write long tomes of wisdom. I appreciated your Freudian slip more than you realize, thank you.
U Superstar G: Quote:- “Ultimate Superstar Gurus can indeed write long tomes of wisdom.”
I ain’t seen any evidence of wisdom emanating from you. Give us a couple of examples.
Jack
Jack: Sure, the first example would be “N” and a good second example would be “O”.
U Superstar G: Wow! what wisdom.
So! you are hiding your talents under the bushel. I suspect you’ve been doing that all along. Still I thought this might have been something to share. There seems to be little of it out there in the world.;( .
Jack
> hi Guru, nice to hear you again!
> M
> hi Guru, nice to hear you again!
> M
Thanks for the sweet welcome, Margaret. *hugs* You make me want to call you what my grandma once nicknamed me: Sugar Plum
I was actually embarrassed being labelled after a sweet confection like that. It might have worked against me in the long run since sweet sugar plum people may be the low-hanging fruit ripe for the plucking by the piranhas and sharks of the world.
> haha, UG, thanks, you put a smile on htis sugar plum’s face, M
> I find it very nice your grandma called you that occasionally. piranhas go more for the wounded and bleeding, not so much for the sugar plums I guess.. maybe bonobos do so more and flying dogs..
> haven’t spotted too many of those here..
> M
I secretly wish my grandma would have called me a tangy pomegranate, instead. It would have enabled right blend of sweet sociability, yet sour and cranky enough not to be taken advantage of by emotional and financial manipulators (aka sharks and piranhas).
As a corollary, would I have been a billionaire by now if grandma had raised me as a lemon?
Huh?? Seems Dr. Jaove still uses the word, ” Primal, ” to describe a feeling event:
To understand more about how abreaction works, let’s see what happens when a session goes off track.
As we now know, there is a critical window during a session when the patient brings in a certain feeling, say, helplessness. If the therapist does not act to help the person delve into the feeling it very well may be too late, later on in the session. When the therapist does not strike at the critical moment, the specific feeling/frequency the patient came in with is now gone. What the patient will be left with is abreaction, the discharge of a secondary feeling, not the key one she brought in. That means no resolution and integration of feeling because the feeling has not been felt. When we measure vital functions after the session, the signs move in sporadic fashion. They do not move in coordinated ways but as though each function moves at a different pace. They seem to have lost their cohesion, which tells us that no primal has occurred.
I’m curious why you are puzzled David. I have feeling events that have more to do with pain in the present or recent past that I don’t think of as primals, whereas a feeling event that I’ve unconsciously locked in for decades before I started therapy and finally let into consciousness and let myself experience… to me is a primal.
Without arguing the terminology, I will agree that there are especially acute moments that need to be acted upon at a precise time because a bad feeling can slip away from you like an eel in a stream and is lost.
There have been many times where I was very close to crying about something and I can’t reach the right person in time; it slips away back into the shuffle of my everyday thoughts.
LOL I was being facetious, Larry, as I have read posts that suggested it was an old fashioned, outdated idea, – concept….primal, primaling… I think it’s the hallmark, the defining of PT. Barry once told me Art wished he’d named it something else, Barry thought, like call it Janovian Therapy, because no one would say they’d just had a , “Janov” LOL Wouldn’t there be a field day with that, if he had named it after himself, feeding into the pompiety perception; LOL although never heard that criticism of Freud, Jung, et al LOL
I find this comment of yours David somewhat confusing, for whereas it apears to be quoting Janov’s recent blog article:- “On the Difference Between Abreaction and Feeling (Part 3/9)” you David, did not clearly show this on reading it. I needed to read Art’s blog comment twice, before I was somewhat clear as to what Art was getting at. For me, it wasn’t his clearest of blog articles
Let me state as briefly as I can the differences, as I sence them between Art Jonov’s blog, The Primal Institutes blog, and the Primal Support Groups blog that Phil moderates.
Art’s blog is not open to counter comments, though one can, and I have, but the counter comments are not published
The Institutes blog is more of a free for all to express themselves about what bloggers think, feel and experience. Giving one another feed-back … hopefully..
The Primal Support Group is meant for those that are “self Primaling” and as such the moderators try to keep it a safe enviroment for those describing their feelings and primarily feeling expereinces. If a “self Primaler” reads Janov and for reasons of their own are not able to get to Los Angeles OR afford the therapy even if they did get here … then attempt to do the therapy themselves. Then there are the others that read the book/s hope to get the therapy because they are deeply suffering … and without knowing it drop into deep feelings willy nilly. The former to me is at a great risk to ‘abreacting’. the later can, I feel. do “Feeling Therapy”, since I contend, no-one has a monopaly on feelings. “Primal Therapy” belongs to the Janov’s and their respective centers/institutions.
Each of them have their separate uses, as I see it.
Back to Art’s recent article. On first reading it did appear to be attacking those “self priamlers” and demonstrating the problems for those attempting to do their own Primal Therapy (for whatever their reasoning was/is). I contend that what is deemed a “reliving” of a past feeling event is not new (1967) and that many instances throughout history seem to demonstrate this. What appeares to be the problem is, in hindsight, related to the persons prior knowlege/learning. (Religeon being, as I sense it, the major one). In other words after ‘re-living’ an old event’, one scrambles to explain it via their current knowledge.
It is here where I concur totally with Larry. I would prefer to ALWAYS refer to my experiences as FEELINGS. And best I can keep away from the word “Primal” However there are two types of feelings for me. Those that are simply memory related … and the other “RE-LIVING” which is (initially) unbelievably profound, deep and somewhat disturbing, if one is not aware of the difference; it is here I feel one can go of on a tangent; (Abreacting). Janov coined the former for his own good purpose:- “A PRIMAL”
Jack
Jack; What tha ??? What post are you replying to ?? It seems that unless everything is labeled here like on an autopsy table it gets misconstrued. I never commented in any intent that would be solicitous of this rebuff. Mind you love rebuffs. Man I’ve got to take a communications course. I generally recognize intent even in the printed word. If not for some ability to interpret the printed page satirists before the day of the tube and emoticoms, and acronyms, would have been hard pressed to eke out a living, perhaps dangling at the end of the noose.. LOL
David: I was replying to the post you made on:- August 2, 2015 at 12:40 pm
“Huh?? Seems Dr. Jaove still uses the word, ” Primal, ” to describe a feeling event:
To understand more about how abreaction works, let’s see what happens when a session goes off track”
I wasn’t sure if you were quoting Janov or just plagiarizing him, by rephrasing his words about abreacting. So! in all conceit and arrogance, decided to put my take on his comment cos I did not think he was as clear as I normally find him to be.
I was inspired to do this when a friend of mine in Belgrade, Serbia, who is self primaling was disturbed reading this most recent comment by Janov and thought others might also feel the same. My friend in Belgrade was somewhat assured by my response to him .. which pleased me. Hence, I thought to put my take to your comment on the blog.
Hope that way-lays any further confusion.
Jack
Aaa, My purpose in posting that was I was just being weak and humanly facetious after being told I was dated, old fashioned, or whatever for using the word , ” primal, primaling,” because the modern PI is on a different page; and then, I follow Dr. Janov’s blog, have since it’s beginning; and lo and behold here is the man himself using the word, ” Primal, ” and in such a way that it seems an indispensable convenience. That word communicates to the anointed what would take a long paragraph to explain. I never checked my post, but if I use quotation marks then it’s a word for word theft of the author’s voice. I would never chance messing with Dr. J’s Barry’s or Gretchen’s voicings, at least on this blog. If I can twist it to my advantage to sound oh so professorial where I won’t get caught, well maybe. .. LOL
David: Gud on yea !!!!!!!!!!!
I won’t tell anyone … I promise.
Jack
tanks, Dah…
David: hoo kay doh kay.
Jack
> UG,
> maybe an apple might have worked?
> M
Sugar Plum Margaret: Nope, I always had an apple cider party with friends/family after Halloween Trick or Treating as a kid. Turning myself into an apple is off limits.
Hi Everybody
Yesterday, I decided to go out to the cemetery, as I haven’t been there for some months. Not that I don’t think of going there many times during each and every day.
Why?
Well, you all know by now my fantasy, that by being near my mum’s grave, the “super natural” will happen, and she will reach out to me, hold me, be one with me.
Well, anyway, I did go.
I first stood in front of my mum’s grave. Then I moved across the isle to my grandmother’s grave, my mum’s mum. I am reading her epitaph. Then my eyes drop down onto the flat surface. And there is an inscription that says:
In memory of my father, Ernest Sonntag, who perished in the Holocaust.
That’s my mum’s dad, my grandpa, whom I never saw, never met, but none the less I always miss him, want him. He would’ve been my family, someone I could turn to. He starved to death in Flossenburg Concentration Camp, exactly one month before liberation. He survived five months in that hell hole.
To this day, I have no clue why I get so emotional when I think of him. ” I din’t know deceased people can reach out of their grave, and affect living souls/people. So perhaps my quest for my mum’s attention isn’t so far fetched, after all. Right?
By now, am crying in front of grandma’s grave.
Then I walk down forty graves, and there is my dad’s grave. Why were you so mean to me? Why couldn’t we be ‘friends”?
Then I walk back to my mum’s grave. Mum!!!!!!! Do your staff!!!!!!
Why didn’t you let me go visiting grandma when I was ten years old in Budapest? Why? I wanted to be with her. Talk to her.
Then over to my grandma’s grave again. Papa!!!!!! My Papa!!!!!!!!! Where are you??????
So on and so on. As I approached my dad’s grave again I realised I felt like a dog.
Yes, like a dog looking for his master. Or looking for a master. Like a poor lonely dog. Wanting something from my master. A pat, a word, anything. I will die on the street. I felt so lonely.
Where do I belong? Who keeps an eye on me. I am the oldest on this continent, of my family. Who can I go to? I am so, so lonely. Feel like dying.
And by now an am sobbing in the cemetery. There is a father with two kids visiting a grave. They are looking at me. And I am hurting.
Don’t know why I am telling you all this.
Tom
You sound absolutely miserable. Glad you told us.
Any clues found there, Tom ??
Hi David
I am left clueless. Just hurting. Hurting non-stop.
Not having had that original bond with my mum, left me disconnected, alienated and incredibly lonely, to which I am only now just starting to own up to.
My most vivid flashbacks, which aren’t too many of, are always me lonely, ending up me feeling ‘not wanted’.
One scene, me about 8-9 years old, coming home after an afternoon of playing soccer with friends in the field and finding that nobody was home. ‘How could you do this to me?’ Not even a key, or a note. Just nobody home.
The next scene is me walking the streets of Bruxelle, Belgium, while immigrating. Not a single friend. Dad at work. Mum home, but eternally unavailable emotionally.
To lessen the pain of me feeling so lonely, I’d end up going to the movies, 2,3, even 4 times a day, to take my mind of feeling so miserable.
Next scene is in Sydney. My grandma’s oldest friend found me on a street corner, sobbing my eyes out. I was so utterly lonely. Being a new immigrant, had no friends. Both parents working. Made arrangements after me complaining about not having dinner till late in the evening, with local small restaurant, which would at least feed me five days a week.
Then the drudgery of going home to an empty place. Devoid of humans, of emotional and physical contact with anyone.
So David, that’s part of the answer to your question. Not all of it.
Tom
Geez Tom: so, so, sad. It made my cry a little reading your post.
Jack
Bloody horrific Tom; I’m overwhelmed with feelings; mine, and for a suffering fellow person.
I’ve never heard you say so much before, so clearly, about your life, Tom. You and your family endured horrible tragedy, and there was never anyone there to help you, a child, through it. Such a barren life. How DID you survive? No wonder you have such great need! No wonder you don’t want to open to it.
Larry,
I also focus on feelings as they come up: similar to Jack I usually avoid thinking in terms of a “primal”. I find it less confusing, though I am aware of the different levels/types of feelings. When: n I have reactions to people I can often tell if it is an old feeling from childhood underpinning it just has that familiar pattern to it even if I am not that deeply in the feeling.
Sometime I get into deeper, but a lot of the time it comes and goes because I have to stay in the present (like at work, you cannot really go into deep feeling.
The specifics of primal theory are interesting and relevant, but I find trying to keep track of the the technicalities can cloud stuff if I am just trying to deal with my feelings.and see where they lead. As Barry has often told me once you internalize the process you can trust your feelings to go where they need.
Donal.
Yeah, I don’t think in terms of a ‘primal’ either.
I’m curious why you are puzzled David. I have feeling events that have more to do with pain in the present or recent past that I don’t think of as primals, whereas a feeling event that I’ve unconsciously locked in for decades before I started therapy and finally let into consciousness and let myself experience… to me is a primal.
Then: August 2 to Donal, ” Yeah I don’t think in terms of a” primal,” either.
You know I don’t use Primal, either, but it’s kind of like trade speak when you meet new like minded but don’t know where they’re at. I differentiate , ” feeling,” which is a life long sensation experience from, ” feelings,” I have feelings for and towards others and about events; and the old feelings. I still hear the word feeling being used to describe what sounds to be a thought to me.
Once comfortably on this path, I really don’t have any words for it, don’t need any. Have come to trust myself. Sometimes I cry just to have my own little pity party. And that’s my right, too. ‘T’ain’t Primaling, but nice to have compassion for myself.
Pretty much, yep…
Starting chatting with a gal of many similar interests, guitar, natural health practitioner , too; kind in attitude, old hurts; and then she got afraid of opening up her heart again. I stepped back and then that dying feeling, smothering, urge to struggle with her. And I survived. I wonder if that feeling will ever be put to rest. But now labeled, I just feel it until it wanes; 2 + days this time I don’t know what else to do with it; no dialogue comes with it anymore. I suspect it began long before my known kiddie struggles began to keep my mom alive. Whatever. That’s not productive, so I’ll just feel it.
Reading Tom’s reply to me, I can’t even describe my triggered feelings; it’s like I get propelled into a place of knowing nothing; the feelings are muted but a whole bunch and my body sort of shuts down; my face masks, open mouthed, and I’m numb. I don’t self monitor, but don’t know how else to send the picture. It happens more and more, ending with profound lonely sadness. The earliest connected scene is xmas after my Grampy died; I was 9. I’ve got no one, now, no one to love me or protect me. I pray to him to come and take me to heaven with him, I don’t want to be here anymore no child should have to hurt like this emmpty hopless helpless.
This, I jusyt want to die ” session,” left me wiped out. does anyone have any helpful words to offer, where I might go with this feeling ?? It will be appreciated.
david
David: I hope Gretchen or Barry is able to help you betteer than anyone, in particular me.
All I can do is offer you support … in-so-far as I once had a total re-living expereince that I was dying and I screamed it out at the top of my lungs in a situation that was not particulary safe … I was in a London clinic for the purpose of getting an antibiotic injection. The whole doctors office seemed scared, which didn’t help me. They finally injected me with a tranquilizer and I slowly came out of it, but remained scared out of my wits, for days afterwards.
What I did know was that I was transported to a scene in my very early childhood where I was in-fact, dying. I was flooded with insights afterwards, but I was not able to make total sence of it since at the time I had not read “The Primal Screem” All I could think of was:- IF … that was a memory, then all my previous ideas about what constituted memeory when up in flames.
On reading “The Primal Scream” some seven years later and in particular the introduction about Danny Wilson, the whole thing made total sense to me. I had re-lived a scene from my early childhood and got a whole different take on what my early childhood was about. It was way more than a mere memory.
Jack
Thank you, appreciated. you can’t be serious you have a lot to offer.
david
It’s unbelievably brutal what happens to some children, what happened to you.
I guess this comment is mainly to David and Jack. As I understand, the PI and Art Janov went separate ways a long time back. Not sure if they are still connected somehow, but I did not think so. Is n’t it entirely possible that the Pi and him differ significantly in how they approach the therapy sat this point? Same root theory and they probably agree on the core premises/concepts. However, in talking to patients who were at the PI in the late 70s/early 80s, who still go there, their seems to have been changes in the approach since then. In Big group, I have heard from several, people basically had to speak and get to the feeling pretty quickly, as big groups were actually big.
Put another way, Barry and Gretchen may not necessarily agree with all that Art publishes on his blog today, though I am sure they would give him the respect that he has earned. both as the founder of the therapy and a fellow professional who worked with them.
I remember contacting Art’s center before I came to the PI, as I was confused about which one to go to. Talking to Atty and then Barry via phone I got the sense the PI was down to earth, with approachable, nice, normal kind of people with a sense of humor. It made me feel comfortable and safe.
When I started doing therapy at the PI, I like the human approach and was glad there were no big deal made about primals and primalling, I think the therapists rarely use that term. Also, there was no pressure to go anywhere with your feeling,
I did not really get the same sense from Art’s place, For one thing his website materials seemed to contain the premise that getting into a primal was a goal. This seemed worong to me then, and I learned reasonably soon that too much expectation is bad for getting to stuff. A couple of people I talked to on the phone at Art’s place seemed a little, well……off. Certainly they did not have a personalilty like Atty, who is naturally good with talking to people, However, one of the therapists at Art’s place who emailed me a few times seemed nice. By the time she contacted me, however, I had started my 3 week at the PI with Mark.
Donal
The PI references Dr. Janov at the top of the page and on the Home Page as resources to follow. Dr. Janov’s body of ongoing research is impressive. Have you read the New Primal Scream, for starters.
cheers
david
Donal: I will take a shot at answering some of the points you make here, but the real answers lie with Gretchen and Barry
My take was that Art left, initially to start an Institute in France, particularly since he’s fluent in French and his wife France is French. For reasons, unknown to me, it did not reach his expectations, so then he returned to Los Angeles and, I understand, he asked the staff at the Institute, if he could return. I gather that the majority vote was “no”. So he then decided to open his own center here.
Art has always wanted that there was back-up to progress from patients through, primarily, vital signs, where as the Institute, under Vivian did not consider that to be necessary. Seemingly, the patient themselves designated their own progress. Art wanted to take a more scientific rout. I gather his primary interest was to promote his findings (discovery of Primal Pain and his formulation of Primal Theory) from a scientific bases. As I see it, thinking more into the future. Vivian, I gather, did not see the purpose of that. I suspect only the future will decide which was the more expedient way.
Since I never went to the Primal Center I know no other difference. Both insist on an extensive internship for training of therapist. In both cases the goal (if that is the right word) is to take the patient into a more expressive feeling-full-ness, and both feel that is the route to better health. Art’s insistence on the word “Primal”, is obvious to me, since he coined the word in the first place.
I understand although the goal is the same, that both experiment with ways to induce that expressiveness of feelings in patients.
I don’t believe there is an animosity between the therapist at either place, but there is the feeling I gather to keep them as separate entities … least-ways for now
If I am wrong on some of these matters I would be willing to be corrected.
Jack
My information is probably just skuttlebut, conjecture and urban myth; but the story told to me on arrival in LA in 86 was that as part of a divorce settlement that Arthur agreed to a , ” no competition,” clause, and sole ownership of the P I was vested in Vivian. Had I known he was no longer at the PI, I might not have come, an emotional based decision, ” the only one skilled enough to cure a difficult case like me.”
When he returned, the talk in the hallway, at the Institutes Big Group, was that the, ” no competition,” clause had expired.
Any of this has at least a 100 % chance of being totally wrong, rumor, invention, fiction…
Further I heard that Dr. Janov’s envisioned new project was to train and certify therapists. For that patients were needed.Then the talk was that many advanced post primal patients presented themselves for therapy at his clinic hoping he might be able to help with issues that had not resolved although they were no longer neurotic and had accessed first line pain. That evolved into chatter about an extremely exciting breakthrough, pre-birth, dare I say it, ” Primals,” that indeed resolved issues such as homosexuality. It was said that that development was accidental, in that they, “Janov clinic,” had no idea what they could possibly offer these patients and just sat with them while they emerged into wordless feelings. And could not relate any impressions as to what they were experiencing. Apparently medical specialists were employed to figure out what was happening using vital signs, blood and hormonal testing. That’s as much as I recall, My own circumstances caused me to have to leave for home to care for my children. And my contact with friends, P I patients and post patients, gradually dwindled.
Then a friend recommended The New Primal Scream to me. I expected it to be the original work, simply re-released. It was much more. Some of what I say above could be my recall of LA conversations plus info from the New P S.
That old, “hope thing,” still reverberates inside me, and with utmost confidence and respect for the competence of the P I; that if I could only be treated by Dr. Janov, the rest of my life could better. At age 69, there’s likely only maybe 40 competent years left…
That’s not real unless I win the lottery, so I’ll dog along. Barry et al helped me put some tools in the tool box and a process I trust. Like the old country song says, ” It’s not real love but it’s not all bad..”
david
Perhaps Barry or Gretchen would like to speak for themselves/the PI as to their
thoughts on the PI vs Janov’s Primal Center approach.to therapy.;
PI “:Our Links
Barry’s Smart People Podcast
P.I. Chatroom (Hint: janov)
PrimalInstitute.com”
Oh, , ” Anyone,” how do I log onto the PI Homepage that Gretchen referenced.in her post to me. I’m computer challenged… thanks, david
I want to share this music video, for the few who may be interested. If I wasn’t in PT, I’d be running for the hills. So glad that instead I have a chance to make something of my life, and it keeps always getting a little better.
I can tell you how the story goes
If you die, if you just get old
All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
Like your mother and your father too
All grown up but they’re just like you
And you’re going to do it all anew
Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Another day older
Everyone you knew
All chasing bells and ahead of themselves
And you know you can’t move
One step forward
Step right back
Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
Run for the hills, don’t look back
Everything you see is double
Any way you go you lose
When you’re lost in the woods and
Alone in the world too
Another day older
And another day we go, oh no
Alone again with all these people
I can tell you how the story goes
If you die, if you just get old
All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
Like your mother and your father too
All grown up but they’re just like you
And you’re going to do it all anew
Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Wanna live like an animal
By the skin of your teeth
Put your good face on, not foolin’ no one
You’re a jackrabbit underneath
One step forward, step right back
Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
Run for the hills, don’t look back
Don’t look back, don’t look back
Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
Run for the hills, don’t look back
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Everything you see is double
Any way you go you lose
When you’re lost in the woods and
Alone in the world too
One step forward, step right back
I can tell you how the story goes
If you die, if you just get old
All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
Like your mother and your father too
All grown up but they’re just like you
And you’re going to do it all anew
Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Da da da, da da da, da da da
Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
Larry, I’m glad for you that you recognize things keep getting a little better. and thanks for the song.
david
A here and now fear, since my twisted spinal cord injury last OCT, I began to wonder if I would ever walk a normal, and pain free distance again. Finally every day it’s a bit better and every regression is for shorter periods and intensity, and I’m daring to hope. Now a lot of muscle to rebuild, soon I hope…
hope, so easily crushed, so precious to have, so hard to let go of when there really is no reason for it. I’m glad for you David that you feel improvement.
I enjoyed the song, and energy of the people singing this song Larry – thanks.
David and Leslie, I’m glad you enjoyed the song. I like stumbling upon such introspective lyrics almost approaching our primal understanding of our inner life, by a group of young people making leading edge, dynamic music.
I especially like it when the lyrics relate to what is going on in my life. I feel on an edge of aching to open up and live, but hurting, like at a retreat, because to open up is to understand I shut down and died because my parents were dead to me.
Another long day at work today, the second in a row….17 hours yesterday, 13 hours today, long distance travel to research plots and work that needs to get done before the rains starting this evening.
I work with a really good bunch of young people. Today was the last day I’ll see one of the 3 fellas helping me this summer. As we gathered near our vehicles at the field site late in the evening, the work done, he said good-bye, thanked me for a really good summer, and gave me a hug. The hug surprised me. I didn’t think they did that, and said so. The 3 of them said, it’s normal for us, we hug our friends, guys and gals. Real men do, they said. I said yeah, I’m with that, I just didn’t think guys in Saskatchewan hugged. I said to them, you’re real quality people.
It feels really good to know there are young people like them out there. They’d fit right in at a retreat.
Working so many long hours outdoors, sun up to sundown, and the long 3.5 hours drive one way across rolling prairie, partly wooded, takes my mind out of it’s routine and frees it to roam, especially while driving home at night, when the long long ribbon of asphalt becomes mine as it guides me home through now unfamiliar looking, moonlight traced dark terrain. I think of the migration patterns of people, of the aboriginals pushed off the land, the prairie tamed, my grandparents moving in to start a new life, the hard work, the uncertainty, the depression of the 30’s, they’re finding ways to survive and find joy and stay healthy, and then they get old and die, another generation gone, another one created. I think of the coming and going of the great ice sheets, of the extermination of species, of massive extinctions in the far past due the planet freezing, or overheating. And all the while, the same moon, the same sun appeared to whoever or whatever had eyes to see or senses to detect. The sun, the moon, the rumblings of our planet, unchanged for eaons of time, are oblivious to life.
We are alone, our life precarious, brief, precious. Our cultural environment is our invention that takes our mind off how alone we are in the natural environment. If we are lucky we’re here for a lifetime, really a brief time. I was a baby not so long ago and my parents young. Soon it’s over and we are dust. Now is what matters most, is what to appreciate the most, is what to make the most of.
Primal therapy helps me to do that, thank goodness. Otherwise I’d be running for the hills, looking for a way out, wanting to run from the cold, emotionally dead trap my parents were in.
I like this, Larry, especially your description of “people/planet history” (for lack of a better term) in the longest paragraph.
Larry: Our lives are definitely fragile, frail, and infinitesimally small against the backdrop of a huge world. The thought that we are doomed to dissolving into nothing but unintelligible dust forever can be a heavy weight for many of us to bear. At least stillborn babies didn’t have to worry about these things, for instance. It was just an Oriental Express for the stillborns from start to finish, a bit like a short recursive function with almost no operations without all the elaborate hassle of Primal blogging along the way.
…no operations and without all the elaborate hassle…
David,
For the record, I do have a lot of respect for Art Janov’s work: I believe he does take a scientific approach, and perseveres with researching and developing the therapy more. Most others would have quite at this point: unfortunately primal therapy does not receive the widespread recognition which I think it should. As I understand it, Art has had more than his fair share of criticism from others in his profession.
I did read The New Primal Scream shortly after it was first published, and still have a copy that I pick up every so often. He explained well how the therapy had evolved since the early days when he published the original book.
I did not notice the Pi references on Art’s webpage: assuring to know that he recognizes the PI as a good source.
Donal
Donal,
I remember ordering the “New Primal Scream” back in 1993 after reading Janov’s “Perspective on Cults” editorial/commentary in the LA times (which was in response to the David Koresh Waco siege). I directly ordered it from Art’s training center and marveled at how the book was so new it had a fresh forest wood smell.
I gave my copy away a long time ago, but I still remember the very first paragraph Art wrote: ‘The world is having a nervous breakdown. People are irritable, aggressive, tense, and anxious. The world is coming apart at the seams. Valium is the glue holding it together.”
Henceforth, I knew I was in for a masochistic treat!
I don’t argue against the idea that the world is seriously whacked, but the way Art describes how the world came about being in such a dire condition is not telling the whole story at all.
I already tried to explain to the blog a long time ago how we have hundreds of millions of 4,000 pound vehicular missiles (aka motor vehicles) hurtling about at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour that are tearing apart millions of frail 150-pound corporeal bodies (aka mass-produced human Barbie dolls) each year. Individual first-line, second-line, and third-line emotional traumas don’t even begin to approach a culturally immense, roaring display of horsepower replete with chance-based, modern-day Aztec human sacrifices.
do you know the story of the little boy walking the beach, tossing marooned star fish back into the ocean. Admonished for the nonsensical comparative import of his effort he said, ” It matters to this one.” I have supported pro choice and freely available abortions for years. I’d have chosen dying one death , even at delivery than the price I paid for being born. For those of us who are so forced, I think we should have treatment available that can improve quality of life. It makes it even more defensible to share our discovery.
Actually I was referencing that on The Primal Institute they link to Dr. Janov.
thanks Margaret; yeah, In that feeling I feel numb, anesthetized, breath very slow and shallow, inanimate. Just talking about it now triggered it, even the sensation of something wrapped around my neck. So feelings must be closer to the top. agreed just feel it as it comes. if I don’t ever finish with feeling it, that’s ok , too. At least I can feel. And know my recollection of early life is real. I’m not crazy or a liar as my mother and sibs would say. I’m freer to live than they with their alcohol and religion soaked lives.
Had a wretched amount of pain yesterday AM, opened my eyes and the story of my daughter’s last days was already playing. The part where I learned they had literally dissected her precious little body, mutilated it beyond any recognition; the mortician, a friend, had to reconstruct her. That released so much pain. How any one could have been so cruel,and then assume a challenging position.
David
> David,
> I know that one where your face does its own thing, mouth wide open.
> usually my breath starts ‘stopping’ for a while repeatedly as well, with gasps in between.
>
> I usually just let it happen, if I had to put some explanation about it at this time, I’d say it feels like some kind of tension before birth, like labour setting in and I also feel it is just an onset of bad things to follow..
>
> it often is just a fase of another feeling, my crying often seems to go from present to earlier to baby and back to present sadness.
>
> or just an odd tear , there is no rule to follow about this, just you keep following your instincts.
> one useful quote from Barry, always seemed ‘don’t scratch when it does not itch’.
> no chasing of feelings, simply allowing them to come up when they present themselves.
>
> it feels good to me to hear you say you do not monitor yourself when something comes up, that is all it takes really.
>
> for me often whe I allow myself to let the crying stop all of a sudden my body takes over and it starts again when necessary.
>
> it also helps me to stay focused on what triggered it, or the contents of where it leads me.
> pretty obvious, but well, all those things are subtle and also individually slightly different I guess.
>
> all of this might not be of help to you, but I can only give you my own experience with what you seem to describe.
>
> it sounds terrible to want to die as a nine year old.
> I only know how hard it is to feel that way sometimes at waking up early in the morning, by now all I can think of for comfort then is the rational knowledge I remind myself of then I will feel better later on in the day, that feeling of utter despair wil have dissipated while functioning..
>
> hope you can have a nice life and feel what comes up, which seems all we can do.
>
> I have come to the conclusion feeling or having primal stuff dealt with does not make it all easy and ok and happy, but certainly does make it deeper, less shallow, more ‘in control’ than just led by random impulses..
>
> which reminds me of something I always wonder about, Tom, apart from being faced with your huge pain on a day to day basis, do you feel therapy has helped you, and if so in which way?
> M
Hi Margaret
“Has therapy helped me, and if so in which way?”
It’s a good question. It made me think, how will I reply to you. There is no short answer, I think. It’s somewhat more complex than a yes or no.
Have to go back to the beginning. What prompted me to seek help, and how did I get here, meaning Primal Therapy, in 1983.
I’ve ended up in very high pressure jobs. Project Manager on high rise office buildings and major shopping malls. Worked usually seven days a week. I was married and in 1974 my son was born in Melbourne.
I ended up with a headache every single day, a band around my chest constricting me breathing. There was nothing wrong physically. So that meant that ‘ I felt BAD all the time’.
So I started to look around how to help myself. First I was referred to a physiotherapist, as I could barely move my neck, I was so uptight. He in turn, after a few months of treatment referred me to an other place, where people meditated and then shared their feelings.
Now that was new to me.
I mean talking about feelings. I do not recall ever having a discussion with my parents about ‘feelings’. And then my ex wife brought home the Primal Scream for me to read.
After reading a few pages, I knew I wanted to do Primal Therapy. It felt right, it felt like nobody was fucking with me. I am thinking here of my father.
So we, as a family ended up in LA in 1983.
So back to now. Much to my chagrin, I slowly realised that there wan’t a single decision I ever made, that wasn’t coloured, influenced by old feelings. I had no idea how repressed I was. I had no idea how depressed I was.
Yes, I am still somewhat repressed and depressed. But not like it used to be. I am still coming to terms, as I realise more and more how my parents, our history and our circumstances influenced my life. And it still is to a lesser degree.
I’ve been an incorrigible optimist. For ever hoping for a better life. For ever hoping that I will get IT. IT being what I missed out on. And as you and we all know, this isn’t going to happen. Not now, not ever. But it doesn’t stop me going out to the cemetery to ‘make contact with my mum, dad and grandma’. The ache to be united with my mum is unbearable. What kills me that nothing in the present makes up for my loss. I am constantly looking for IT.
On an other note, I think I am a better man. More compassionate. More giving. Even more tolerant than I used to be. I measure my success in therapy as to how my son is doing. How do Suzi’s kids relate to me. How the grand kids come to me. The friendships I’ve developed over the years.
So if I was to measure my success in therapy, I can say that I’ve become a more feeling and concious person.
Is that what I was looking for? No. I wanted to be happy, carefree and enjoying life. I wanted to stop feeling weighed down. Depressed. I didn’t even know the word hopeless before therapy.
Am I where I wanted to be when I started on my quest? No. Probably never will be. Cannot undo the tremendous damage my parents inflicted on me. The hurt, ache and longing I was left with.
I hope this answers your question somewhat. It stirred me up. I didn’t want to take stock as to where I am, because that would, and indeed told me how much further I have to go. I hope I won’t run out of time.
Be well.
Tom
Thanks Tom! Wonderfully honest! X 🙂
Ummm. I think a lot of us are going to run out of time. If not all, in my experience it’s better to at least get some of the unconscious buried feelings resolved and some of the walls and defenses dismantled. Well worth the journey in my opinion, even if we run out of time before we reach the end.
Yes, I agree – whenever the end is there will always be more to uncover and explore with ourselves and others. Hopefully before then – the good outweighs the bad. The hard times come – whether by random fluke, horrid accidents/injury etc. and/ or triggers to the past .Reacting in the present and then being aware of the connection to the past is huge for me. It makes sense that something can affect each of us to a different degree.
I remember being so afraid to commit to therapy – what if it too wouldn’t work…I asked Gretchen “Well, what would happen if I did therapy and then god forbid had an accident and became a quadriplegic?” Gretchen’s answer of ” I guess you’d then be a quadriplegic who has done Primal Therapy” set it straight.
The places I can go with myself, with B. and our relationship, our children, family and friends is so much deeper than it could/would have ever been. I know that, count on it and love it!
L.
If you carry spare watches in your pockets until your very last day, you are guaranteed to never run out of time..
Quote:- “If you carry spare watches in your pockets until your very last day, you are guaranteed to never run out of time..” … BUT you will run out of life.
I take it that is another example of your wisdom.
Jack
No, Jack, it’s called making up a terrible pun on the spot just because I felt like writing some graffiti. A careless scribble on the back of a napkin. It has nothing to do with my infinitely awe-inspiring wisdom.
Oh! so the wisdom is still being kept under wraps. I gather another move towards what you deem “privacy” Mmmmm??????
Jack
Even without one of those damned, ” LOL’s,” I will take the risk and interpret the watch remark as brilliant humour, and laugh my proverbial ass off; ass as not in donkey…
Well thank you, David, That was a nice compliment and perhaps the very first I’ve noticed from you. As for the watch pun, I really was just…lazily scribbling some graffiti
down for fun and not caring whether anyone was impressed or thought it was funny.
Much of the time when someone writes down something not giving a damn what others think, you will oftentimes see a virtual wasteland of the ordinariness of that person along with occasional glimmers of the very best in that person….little diamond-like morsels in the vast roughness of everyday mundane writings.
Quote:- “Much of the time when someone writes down something not giving a damn what others think, you will oftentimes see a virtual wasteland”.
So what was the big deal about wanting to hide behind a pseudonym, and especially one that seems to spell out ‘one of wisdom’?????
“N” & “O” don ‘t feel like wisdom. BUT then I ain’t no Guru OR, Superstar. However, I would still like to read some real wisdom from within this wasteland..
Jack
Jack: Why do you …..feel….that Sylvia, Jo, Vicki, Otto, Phil, Larry, Patrick, Donal, Gretchen, Barry, Leslie, Fiona, Margaret, and Tom all are quite accepting and supportive towards my being the Ultimate Superstar Guru? Aside from a brief power struggle with David early on to maintain my autocratic status, you are the only one who has been persistently hot and bothered by it over the course of time.
With a solid 86% of the blog (if not more!) being completely accepting of my perspicaciousness, I would venture to say your protestations speak volumes more about yourself than it ever does about me.
I am quite at peace and serene about this current situation. Perhaps you would like to spend a bit more time probing the roots of your discontent with those of us here who are more accepting of the Guru?
I totally accept that there is something going on with me about someone doing Primal therapy (which if have it right) is about self revalations of the unconscious parts of oneself and then seeing another that seemingly is hiding behind a psuedenym and of late adding to it. There are many pseudonyms out there, but yours strikes me as being very conceited, and I feel strongly that you actually believe you have “tomes of wisdom” I have repeatedly said both privately to you and on this blog that I see little or no evidence of that wisdom.
Futher, in my stint of ten years in Ibiza in the land of the hippies before coming to do therapy, I became aware of many guru’s and read some of the writing of many. I do not see you falling into that category. But then that’s just me. Even as an actor I saw little reason for changing my name and of those I met that did, I always felt that there was a great element of self promotion (for actors and acting there may be some justification of that as it is an attempt to promotes a livelihood).
You mention the 86% approval rating you are getting. That completely ‘flies over my cucoo’s nest’ Margaret is the only one I see that seems to miss you. Also on this matter I felt you were making fun out a serious comment by Leslie … again to me, completey making a joke of it. I did not like that. Of course I should have said just that. I don’t like your ‘schnide’ remark about Art Janov either, “Just an old man” and it did touch a nerve in me that you have stated that you do not like the word “Neurosis”. I suspect, though I could be wrong, that you actually believe you are not neurotic, and perhaps hope you never were.
Suggestion (for what it s worth), tell us a little more about yourself; what goes on with you, rather that your very adept use of the English language, especially it’s idioms.
Hopefully you are now more aware of what is going on with me about you.
Jack
i’m quite impressed with a fair bit of what you say, and with your lack of need to fire back. You considered opinions seem multifaceted, not aimless ramblings. Someone at PI told me once that worse than being misunderstood, is being ununderstood. So I find you refreshing.
Excellent, David. Thank you, good sir!
I liked your post Leslie. Even now (as opposed to your beginning of therapy), because we invest so much of ourselves going through pains and hurting again just to get rid of their effects (neurosis) and have a life, we don’t want to be cheated again in the chance we could lose what we worked for.
I realize too, that life’s circumstances can change quickly and glad that I can engage in life’s moments in the here and now and enjoy what I have. I remember worrying about dying at 60 when I was 40; but now if I worry (and it seems I must) it is about more immediate things like health and safety for me and the ones I care about.
I think one of the best things about connecting to old feelings is that I have my memories back of the good times too that were buried in with the pain.
S
> Tom,
> your comment touched me deeply, thanks for your elaborate reply.
> you mentioning how you became a more feeling and conscious person strongly resonated with me, even when happiness is not always there, for me either, it is still very rewarding to be ‘deeper’, to be more able to really feel both the ups and downs, ad to be more conscious of who I am.
>
> you sound so together, so real in what you wrote, and I am very proud of you, you are truely remarkable.
> with affection and respect, M
Tom,
That was a very open and honest response to Margaret’s question. It is difficult for anyone to answer a question like that: it involves taking a hard look at yourself, your life and your therapy. I thought it was very brave.
Donal.
David,
I realized I have been going around in circles with you. The bottom line is that I had a reaction when you asked me how many years have you been primalling. It got my defenses up: I felt criticized or that judgement was imminent. I felt that you were one of these people who could drop into an old feeling at the drop of a hat, so I think it made me feel inferior.
All of the back and forth regarding primals was for the most part, from my end, the diffusing of these reactions to your question.
I only realized on Subday when you referred to someone saying that your use of “primalling” was dated (me obviously)
Kinda dissappointing I did not realize/admin this earlier: oh well, behold the power of defenses.
Donal
it’s all good, Donal. Not easy when we cannot see to whom we speak; no knowing where they’re at… it’s weird, like I’m 69, and yet feel emotionally, intellectually, much younger. And I have this perception of everyone on here just being, ” kids,” .Am I weird here all on my own ?? And my emotional self assumes everyone is superior, intellectually and in terms of primal success. A , ” man without a country,” I have pretty much accepted that I will never belong anywhere, with/to anyone. I could fit in, create a false face, but being me part of which is being honest is too important to me.
going to bed. gettin up early. gonna drink my coffee. gonna do some boring work and get my $500 to pay some other guys so they can drink their coffee. hate to say it, but this might be luxury to a lot of people. hear the one cat howl because it wants something. hear nothing vocal out of the cat that is dying. or at least the vet says it is dying, but you just cling to hope for miracles. sometimes you can find old music and not feel old. hang down your head tom dooley, poor boy you gonna die. gonna bed. gettin up early and gonna drink my coffee and eat garbage. thanks for listenin
You know I’m rarely on here unless I’m really having problems.
I feel as though my life is not of quality living. It seems like I experience more bad days than good and living becomes overwhelming and just no joy.
I know this is depression talking, but I hate my depression controlling my life. I have really tried doing every imaginable that would be healthy in order to feel better and I feel like crap and hard to get out of bed and go.
I do not think my antidepressant is working anymore! I told the pool guy this past week if I had a gun I would put it to my head and kill myself! In the frame of mind at the time– I meant it!
I’m feeling very different than anyone else and I feel as though I am going to go down in life as crazy!!
I just feel like I need to say something to somebody!
Crystal
keep talking, Crystal. I can empathize. Have been suicidal; the plan changed by a fluke visitor, 1985. Then I got pissed that I’d let anyone push me to that. And moved mountains to go to therapy. now, Since Primal, I don’t think I could kill myself but have lots of days that I don’t want to do this anymore. I respect your rights and choices. Now I’ll shut up an listen. There may be gaps, me responding; oh that’s kind of presumptuous of me, if that’s any help to you.
david
Thank you Dave for your input.
Crystal
Crystal, I’m glad you came here to share this with. Sorry about what you’re going through. Phil
Thank you Phil for comment. i am asking for help, but I dont know how or how anyone can help! I’m just tired of living this way. I feel trapped in myself. I don’t know if I can make it at this point.
I asked my daughter to go with me today for my spot and her reply was- I don’t know what you are talking about. She’s not been around me lately.
Not sure if anyone noticed but I wasn’t myself at the retreat. I would have my meals and go back to the dorm. I just can’t take these feelings anymore and there’s nothing to live for anyway! My daughter n law is not even letting me keep Cruz. I guess they all think there is something wrong with me.
Crystal, At the retreat I didn’t really get to hear what was going on with you, which I regret Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
commented on: Remembering Summer comments page three.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/remembering-summer-comments-page-three#comment-21463) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/remembering-summer-comments-page-three)
This was in response to Phil:
Yes, please continue to write anything you want, Crystal. You’ve added a lot of good things to the blog years ago and I see no reason why that would change now.
Just….work it all out here every which way you need to. The blog is yours.
Thanks everyone for your support! I guess things had to come to this in order for me to really see myself. I’ve had a lot on my plate whi his nothing unusual. I’ve seemed to like it all these years.
It all came to a head with my swimming pool remodel. The guy has been starting and finishing pools except mine since April. If you’ve seen some of my FB pics you will know plus I don’t seem to be getting as quality work. I have a really hard time telling people whatI want. So all day Thursday I told him what a sorry so and so he was and I was blaming my depression on the pool — but It was there before the pool! Then the well on my farm goes out. I am to leave on 17th for Africa. So everyday I get up– No energy and just want to run away from it all.
Then the man I date texts and says– I’m affecting his sleep and work and I need HELP!!
Let me back up to the swimming pool contractor– So I’m texting and giving him he’ll all day Thursday. I finally said to him- you will not admit you’re wrong and I can’t take it anymore. My backyard is my oasis and I don’t have one anymore. Jus thinks concrete and debris!!! So I said if I had a gun I would point it to my head and kill myself!!
He doesn’t know my boyfriends phone number but knows he is President of Wehco– He calls him at his work and tells his secretary it’s urgent to talk to him. Jeff said Jamey, pool guy, thought I was going to kill him and me or vise versa!!! So a meeting was set Friday night and my daughter doesn’t come– only Jeff. My thinking and reasoning is Truely impaired!!! I just went along with same old bullshit!!! So I started my texting again! If I am mad– I get really compulsive!!
So like a functioning alcoholic– I look and act like a functioning person and I’m a good actress– but I’m NOT! I’ve been more suicidal than ever before!!
I don’t like myself. I can’t keep anything in order. I don’t socialize much anymore. I’m bogged down with trying to get properties and farms in order and house while taking care of everyone else!!
So I called a psychologist tonight and told her I’m not doing well need appt. She first made for Thurs– then she said to come to her home tomorrow!!!!
I am glad I do not have a gun and there is no water In swim pool!!
The doctor raised my antidepressant dosage. It’s a new generic name so not sure that’s it. It’s everything!!! Everything from past and in present.
Crystal
I did not proof what I wrote. It’s all I can do get thoughts out. I’m trying to eat healthy and except use. One thing is I’m not sleeping well.
The movie– “The Gift” disturbed me in a lot of ways. If you want to watch a psychological thriller with a twist and can relate to real people- Go see!! But it is mind boggling a little.
I just feel like I’m doing worse than ever before!! I feel really hopeless! I really do! I’m turning 59 and I feel like I’m going down as crazy!! I’ve always wanted to be someone of importance and it seems impossible.
Dr Ryburn told me to bring the newspaper guy. I am Truely not putting on any heirs with him. I told him and I told her that this is not about a relationship. It is about me getting well!! For me to even say that- says a lot! I got really upset when he said– You need help with your depression Crystal!!! I at first got angry and defensive– but then decided I need HELP from everyone!! It’s not about putting on aires and trying to be something I’m not! I have to get over and out of this or I’m not going to be around anymore!!
I should have contacted Gretchen but my email was not sending so I think she received it today!!
I really need go bed. It’s 1am in Arkansas. I know my sleep is important if I can rest!
Thank you guys for listening! Crystal
Crystal , are you aware that anti depressants may increase suicide ideation ?? Hoave you had a complete physical with an MD practicing functional science based medicine ??
david
Crystal,
I am glad you can tell all of the rest of us here on the blog what is going on with you, and that you are getting support. People are so supportive on here. Glad you are getting help from people where you live too, I hope things get better for you, and you keep writing on here.
Donal
David- I have to wait until after Aug 28th to get a physical because of insurance. However, the doctor said there is some blood work he can do on Monday before I leave for Africa.
Actually I’ve never given it a thought about the medication causing suicidal. It is definitely a chemical depletion due to stress, etc etc. I just know what I have been taking is not helping me and surely there is something I can take to have a better quality of life.
I know there are so many things I have to work through. I spend too much time alone and overthink things.
Thanks David
I’ve learned that even when I think I can’t offer much, I can say I care. Any of us who have suffered must know that feeling. If my caring helped, I’m privileged, Crystal Keep talkin’ kiddo..
Hi Donal- Thank you for your response. I have a better outlook after Dr Ryburn met with me this afternoon. She kindly called and asked me to come to her home. It meant a lot that she would care that much! She has such a busy schedule because she teaches college classes and she had out of state company and just returned from abroad. So for her to call and say– Come on to my house meant just so much to me! It made me feel like she cared!
It also makes me feel good that in a moment of desperation- I can jump on here and you guys respond! Thank you – Crystal
> David,
> what you said about your little daughter, and what was done to her precious little body after she died, is stuck on my mind, even if back then I did not react, just want to let you know you were being heard.
> must have hurt so very much, and still now as well..
> seems like the worst what can happen..
> M
I think, Margaret, that after 34 years it was the first time I cried for her, I mean for what she lost. That poor baby. On the day of the surgery it was decided that I even though having assumed a forced calm would not be permitted to accompany her to the OR and be with her until she was unconscious. She was begging me to come with her. The porter who took her on the gurney told her, ” Your daddy needs to go for a smoke and a coffee.” So stupid, I didn’t use either. She meant no harm, but Rachael would know wasn’t true and I worried about that as an extra stressor. I was pissed at her ineptness. I’m the only one in my family who knows what indignity her body suffered.
i am not thinking clearly right now so I am going to wait on posting.
Crystal
Hey, Crystal; don’t need to be thinking clearly, to post, just awake. hee hee. I’d be mute if that was a requirement. And believe me that would be welcomed by some friends… hah
did you have a meds review ?? I hope your doc makes you a valuable part of the team. You know how you feel.
dave
Ok. 39 years of marriage as of today. I was lucky to find some gladiolas at Ralphs for two dollars. We went to the beautiful Franklin canyon but I was exhausted from cleaning up one tiny area of the house where one of the dog sleeps, so I was lifeless there, paid no attention to Z. We sat or tried to sit at a table that was not laid flat, it was at a down hill angle, so I really could not face her. The park was too lonely and quiet for me, since it was a weekday, few people were there. Coyote chasing quail in the every never ending quest to stay alive. Z and I rarely touch each other. Which one of us will die first and destroy the other’s life? I am drained and have zero to give. For a long time now. Life is a bitch and gets bitchier. Nothing has changed. My rent check bounced. I am so unhappy. I am so depressed. I count my successes at work. Like figuring out bureaucratic paperwork to that the government can move 200 old computers from one warehouse to another. Instead of just giving those computers to schools, they will rot forever in some stinking warehouse or be thrown into some dump. Like being a slob in my boss’s showcase of a computer technician work area/call center. Stacking stinking old label printers with all kinds of bugs on them around my desk to create a fortress to get some small measure of privacy. One dog dead this year, many dead dogs, cats, birds, turtles and whatnot over the past 55 years, another dog with a lump in his throat, a cat with either nose cancer or fungus, if she is lucky it is fungus. Does this tell us that we will probably get cancer ourselves from living 5 blocks from the freeway? No matter; no money to move, we can barely afford what we got. Oh yeah, rent check bounced. I have very little relationship with my kids because I couldn’t change myself enough from my terror of an early childhood. Never should have had kids but did. One kid seems ok, but trying to get his phd, he has no girlfriend of any of that stuff. Other kid, his wife doesn’t want his brother to come around at all. I am growing tomatoes, corn, squash, and weeds. Seeds I got from a survival company. If there is a cataclysmic catastophre, I might be lucky to get 2 ears of corn. Of course, tomatoes always grow, but not getting many. It is certainly hot enough. I am depressed and hopeless as always. I don’t want to listen to music and cry, not about my horrible life, nor about my recently-deceased dog. All the latinos on the block have giant families and get-togethers and we are just 3. I had such family get togethers when I was a kid, now the family is spread to the wind and I never hear from them. It is impossible to see my bother in Costa Mesa in his retirement home, where he gets to watch 3 old folks die each week. Anyway, done watering, now go get dinner for Z. Then give medicine to sick pets. Go get my coffee in the morning and go to work. Z came in my room to say she says she feels crappy, like she has a bug. She says this every other week. She has bottles of pills stacked all over her office. We couldn’t afford herbs or whatever supplements she is taking this week, so she is sick. Blah blah blah Couldn’t ask for another. You know that song. Send chills up my spine or something. Groove is in the heart.
Otto; I am left speechless. Not to be insensitive but Is this for real?
How do you manage to get through each day!
spot on, Larry; I felt at a total loss, the abyss of Otto’s experience of life.
Otto: I really like your writings here. I’m not into pets as you are (OK maybe a cat or something cute, small, furry and QUIET would work), but I empathize with your lamenting living close to the freeway. Makes all the sense in the world to me; traffic buzzing by your home at all hours will always add a low level of stress to your existence. Most people just train themselves to ignore it even though it’s there. Nice idea on your growing a garden, too. It can be hard work that demands a lot of attention, but I can see the sense of empowerment and natural comforts against an urban life that can mentally draw and quarter people from all corners.
(Thinking about Otto’s post just made me want to type this down before I go.)
Man, I really miss my maternal grandpa’s big, old ranch style home. Upscale neighborhood, last house at end of street, huge garden in back….and that lovely cedarwood smell by his carpentry area with two luxury cars in the garage. Grampa was simply the type to tear out the back seat of the old luxury car and make room for more tools. It became a carpenter’s truck disguised as a car; the newer car being left untouched for going out socially.
Very little traffic, yet only 20 minutes to the city and all its amenities. Perfect suburban living having all the trappings of nature without too much deep woods isolation.
The only thing to complain about is the maintenance work and costs to keep everything running smoothly, quietly, and serenely. It can be a definite chore without hired help (gramps was wise enough to hire one person in this capacity).
I think I would be very content just returning to this sort of lifestyle till the day I die.
I lived under the 405, on Sawtelle. After a while the freeway started to sound like a creek flowing. When I returned to quiet rural Nova Scotia, I couldn’t sleep at night; something wasn’t right. Interesting how maladaptation gets to feeling like normal so we can function, exist.
This therapy is cruel. The therapists are cruel. They get to know you and your carefully crafted rock and lattice edifice of defenses that help create the impression of a normal life, and then they point out it’s flaws and the thing comes tumbling down and your left with nothing, with a sickening, empty void. So cruel of them. They leave you there, naked, empty, and hurting, to the depths of your soul. Facing unbearable truth. Facing you are alone with it. Facing there is no escape from it.
And you heal.
powerfully and succinctly expressed; the path to real hope. Occasionally lose track of that. thank you
Otto: Since you are a bit into gardening, maybe try placing some fragrant spearmint plants in your bedroom would be a bit of a refresher? Waking up minty fresh every day could add a spark of aliveness within the everyday urban dread.
Guru,I think Otto needs more than spearmint plants to freshenthings up.Phil
WordPress.com
THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented: “Otto: Since you are a bit into gardening, maybe try placing some fragrant spearmint plants in your bedroom would be a bit of a refresher? Waking up minty fresh every day could add a spark of aliveness within the everyday urban dread.”
Phil: That might be true, and I need about a $75 million freshening up in my own life, too! I mention this to Otto because of his current interests, my own enjoyment of having spearmint near the trash cans in my own backyard, and the ease for Otto to try something small that could produce outsized dividends in relation to the effort expended (taking a nod towards Otto’s currently low energy levels).
thoughtful and attainable. amazing, too, for me at least, how diversions often lead to the feeling spilling out, instead of remaining blocked in symbolism. Whenever the same emotional track keeps persisting despite,” feeling,” it I know I’m on the wrong track.
As an aside, I received this in the mail today:
“According to a survey of more than 1,000 people, married people don’t have
much to say to each other. The survey found that on average, married
couples share only four minutes of meaningful conversation per day.”
Otto
Eloquent writing, but , boy, what a lot of stuff to deal with constantly: bombarded from both the past and present.
To echo Larry’s questions: how do you get through each day?? If I remember correctly from you previous posts, the coffee seems to help you get stuff done….i could be remembering wrong. I know coffee gives me a certain boost to get ride above hopelessness, anxiety, loneliness, emptiness, etc, so I can get stuff done, earn a paycheck, maintain structure in my life and keep some amount of sanity: I have gone through periods of drinking too much caffeine which leads to less sleep, thus exacerbating the issue of getting through the following day with all the tasks and feelings. Sometimes, an optimum amount of sleep deprivation and caffeine, balanced against each other, gives me just the right level of feeling-awareness to get through the day and feel okish. Not too much of feeling bad, and just enough of feeling good: right in that sweet spot where the defenses are balanced just right. Not to be confused with genuinely feeling OK, of course: its not but it often works.
Donal.
USG,
That sounds like hogwash to be honest: I am sure most couples have more than four minutes of interaction. Even if it’s negative. Maybe all of these couples were workaholics with exceptionally long commutes? Biased sample?
Donal
Donal: If you look carefully at what was written in italics it said four minutes of meaningful conversation per day, not four minutes of total conversation per day. That’s an enormous problem in itself trying to define what parts of conversations can be considered “meaningful” or not, especially as you start to cover a wide sampling of different demographic groups. I’m afraid I do not have more information available to flesh out all the factors that comprised the study I referenced.
Why are you so invested in being right all the time … especially over something so trivial?
Jack
With dedicated disciples such as yourself, how could I possibly ever go wrong?
THE Ultimate Superstar Guru
Easily … it seems
Jack
USG,
I did see that.before I responded…four minutes still seems too low. And,yes, “meaningful” is subjective, though I was assuming it was conversation other than the functional things that couples need to talk about (is there enough money in the checking account to clear this month’s bills, who organizes dinner, who drops the kids at soccer, practice, who picks them up, etc,
Donal
There was a companion study along with the original one stating:
Another study done in Britain discovered the amount of time married couples speak with one another decreases as the years pass. Couples married for 20 years were found to spend about 21 minutes conversing during a 60 minute dinner, whereas newlyweds within the first year of their marriage converse for about 40 minutes of those 60 minutes. The only exception belongs to married couples with young children, who speak for about 10 minutes during a 60 minute dinner.
Donal: Do you think that you might be more inclined to say the original study of the “4 meaningful minutes” is baloney because you possibly carry a bias related to your being younger and married for fewer years (and, thus more likely to talk longer than someone older and married for a longer period as implied from the second study)?
This reminds me of a story well something that happened on the recent Kruse Cruise. My ‘roomate’ or bunkmate whatever word you want to use was this Canadian woman Michelle. Anyway I would say we got on pretty good and hung out together a fair bit. Part of hanging out was having dinner at the same table every evening with the same people most of whom were strangers to each other.
The last evening Michelle was not there so I said to the table ‘my wife (or maybe I said my woman) is not going to be here today’. There was a pause and another woman there who did know us from the group said “She’s not his wife”. The woman who I was addressing the ‘stranger’ said “will I figured that” So I asked her how she figured that out.
She said ‘well you both spent the whole time talking to each other” So I said ‘oh does that go after you are married for a while?” She said ‘yeah pretty much’ She was there with her husband by the way so there was no bad feeling about it I didn’t think. After a while she said ‘and one other sign I had was “she laughed at all of your jokes” So I said ‘does that go too” to which she said again ‘pretty much’
Anyway Guru maybe you can add this to your ‘study’ and note it down as being purely ‘anecdotal’ Though to me ‘anecdotal’ usually seems to mean a lot more than all these reams of statistics. I mean most all of these ‘studies’ seem like such a waste of time……………
Speaking of laughing at jokes here is a snip from a song. Question is what is the missing name. I bet Otto knows this at least………………..too easy maybe
“I laughed at one of your jokes
My love you didn’t need to coax
Oh ________ , I couldn’t have tried any more”
Maggie May, right ?? do I win a prize ???
No prizes David……………unless you count being a member of my group that is scheduled to open soon and be operational in a galaxy far far away.For you a free membership everyone else will have to pay through the nose. That way I can keep the demand down. And the high price will convince people it is worth going all the way there……………..only you will know better so that’s your prize LOL
david to the Commander of the INTERPRIZE, beam me aboard Mr Irish…
Oh Maggie I couldn’t have tried any more
You lured me away from home just to save you from being alone
You stole my heart and that’s what really hurt
And here is where Jack would be expected to insert, ” Why do you need to be right all of the time, especially over such trivial matters?”
he system installed my aug 19 david says: in the wrong place; it was in response to Jacks response to USG in response to USG’s response to Donal’s reply to USG, It makes no sense here. Question why is the comment only reserved for some, Jack ?
David: Correct.
Jack
but it did not appear ?? true to your prediction the function of the blog has quickly gone wonky again. If my computer and my connection was any faster I’d have to be registered somewhere. Waiting on the blog page to behave is annoying…
>
> yesterday we had a strong rain- and thunderstorm in the evening.
> the kittens had the time of their life, racing back and forth onto the terrace through the clattering cat door, twenty times back and forth, wet feet, wet tail,all excited.
> I kept checking on them, as the water in the gutter by the terrace was a combination of a waterfalll and a wild mountain river.
> one of the kittens jumped up to a plastic chair and raced around after its tail, all wired up with the rain, thunder, lightning, excitement..
> afterwards they ate a whole second evening meal to make up for all that energy, and dried on the bed..
>
> then I dreamed, waking up with a devastating overwhelming feeling.
> I was on the edge of a cold sea on my own, a group of strangers sitting at a distance further up on the beach, and the people I knew and came with sitting even further away.
>
> I started feeling distressed, as I coud not make my way back alone, and nobody seemed to take notice, so I think I called out to the strangers, or they noticed my situation, and they called out to ‘my’ group of people.
> I heard the ‘supervising’ lady tell the others they had been supposed to keep an eye on me or stay with me, so I knew someone would eventually come down to help me in a little while.
>
> but before that a safety guard, a woman, came racing out of the water to me, black swimming suit, cold and wet, and while she bent over to me to check how I was, I crumbled down on the cold wet sand, letting her know I was ok, not drowning or anything, but .. and then the feeling overwhelmed me big time, helples and immensely sad about it, emotion still there while writing..
>
> so sad, so alone, so helpless.
> feeling so strong I could only bear it a few seconds in its totality..
>
> M
More and more I’m finding there is nowhere to run from this alone thing. I can only accept it, cry it out, and do something about it. Not easy to do.
My boss retired last month. This past Friday was my summer students’ last day. I took them to a Thai restaurant for lunch. They gave me a parting gift, darn it. That’s a first. I wanted to resist accepting it, to protest, but realized it was far more satisfying for them if I graciously accepted it. So I did, but it wasn’t easy. My summer students shouldn’t be getting me gifts. I must not be working them hard enough. When they started work with us in the Spring they were anticipating a long boring summer, but they found it was fun, a good learning experience, and went by too fast. It sure did go by fast.
So now no boss to supervise me, and no students for me to supervise. My identity, my sense of purpose and meaning at work, is dissolving. At least the post-doc needs my help for the winter, and my boss took a 12 hour a week contract starting in September and will need my help, so I still have a reason to get up in the morning.
Back to the alone thing. This past Friday I enjoyed a nice evening with 5 other people from a singles social group, taking in cultural festivities happening in the City. I feel myself coming out of a shell, relaxing and having fun with people, for sheer survival. It’s that or be alone.
I’ve been alone all day today, crying quite a bit. Seems like the crying needs to be done, and the reality of aloneness accepted as well as the realization that only I can do something about it. I have more social activities lined up for the next few weekends. I was once way too shy and insecure to be as social.
Sounds like you are doing good things for yourself – and others too Larry!
It does take organizing to get out there, but it sounds like you enjoy the rewards.
Hope you get to enjoy the summer stuff for a long time yet!
ox L.
2 more years max, Leslie. I applied to do a 4 day work week, and will be paid accordingly. It is a transition to retirement option. The transition can only last for 2 years max, and then I must retire. So essentially I’ve formally let them know I will retire between now and 2 years from now (actually beginning at the end of this September).
we instituted a neat plan at our office, Larry; 3 year cycle, take 2/3rds salary while working for 2 years, take 3rd year off with 2/3rd’s pay. The income tax reduction was noticeable; CPP still maxed out; and tenure protected, so no effect on length of service determined pay increases.
Hi Larry
Read your lines referencing feelings of ‘aloneness’ with great interest.
Only now am I starting to wake up to my intense and lifelong feelings of loneliness. Never thought much about it. Never occurred to me that I could be inflicted by this feeling. I always put it down to not being able to connect. And that’s where I stopped. Mixing with people made me aware of my own inability to ‘feel connected’.
I do not cry about feeling lonely. I go into an acute state of “splitting away” from myself. It’s as if it was an other person feeling lonely. Not me. How could that be, after all, I am surrounded by people.
Oh yes. I forgot. It occurred long before I could even talk. Like looking at my mum, presumably out of a cot, or pram, swaddled in comforting cloth, sheets, whatever, Needing, expecting something, that I had no way of articulating like an adult. Like i am looking at you……shouldn’t something be happening now????????????
Like my first time in a small group the therapist asked me ‘what I want”. I didn’t know what to say.
Inside me I went ballistic. I delivered myself to your door, now it is up to you to look after me, take care of me. No?????????
Crying??????? What’s that? And it is supposed to help me????????????? How????
Oh Larry. You always affect me with your writing.
Tom
The more you write about it here, Tom, the more your life makes sense to me and I understand you. Your splitting from the feeling as a baby makes sense to me, when you tried to make contact, before you could speak, and no one responded.
I think some of that split from the feeling happened to me when I was 4, when I moved back home to live with my parents, when they weren’t responding to my need, and i didn’t even dare express my need because I knew that they were incapable of being the parents I needed, but I couldn’t let myself be aware that I knew or that I was all alone and would have to grow up without parents.
The split probably happened even earlier, when they gave me away in the first place. Suddenly I could not trust, bond, or connect. Suddenly I knew fear and aloneness instead of connection, security, and oneness.
There is an article in a recent issue of NewScientist about adoption in the wild animal world. For various reasons, some of them disturbingly dark, some animal parents in nature adopt offspring they didn’t give birth to. I look at the pictures accompanying the article and think of the bond shattered between the offspring and the original parent, the fear and uncertainty, the insecurity, at least in the beginning, of the relationship with the adoptive parent.
I think for you and me the bond with a parent shattered very early, or in your case it sounds like it didn’t get a chance to form at all.
> forgot to ask about something I heard on the news some days ago.
> big quantities of poisonous liquids would have been poured into the colorado river and some other streams, the poison turning the water yellow.
> that sounded really dreadful, what is the latest news about that?
> it is really awful to imagine plants and animals would have been killed and the rivers poisoned for a long time..
> M
Margaret – the last I heard on the news about it some Government official EPA I think said the river has just kind of cleaned itself. Reminds me of the time of the Gulf Oil Spill in 2010 everybody was tearing their hair out and then one day not long after a Government official said basically the oil had just gone! Just gone as in gone away he was not so clear where it had gone, evaporated, changed by sunlight, drunk by the fish, sunk to the bottom of the ocean whatever, who knows but basically don’t worry about it it’s just gone. The same seems to have happened to the poison in the river
> yesterday I discovered one of the kittens seemed to have wounded himself probably during the wild torment playing, at his nose and right eye.
> it was hard for me to assess how wserious it was, like was the eye itself wounded too?
>
> I tried in vain to reach several people to come by and have a look, none of them was there or had the time, which of course triggered the feeling of the dream again, being helpless and alone and scared, unhappy..
>
> finally after a few calls in vain, I mamaged to get hold of my best girlfriend on one of her cellphones, and to my great relief she said she just came back from the seaside and would of course come by to have a close look to the kitten’s eye.
> I felt so relieved I started to cry..
>
> there is indeed a cut from his nose onto the outer corner of his right eye, but the eye is seemingly ok.
> they still have some kitten’s ailments, but at least this is not too bad, and today he seems full of energy and playfulness, it is a pleasure watching them both racing around the house or catching toy mice or wriggling toes under the bed covers..
> M
Hi Margaret. Glad your kitten is OK. Know what you mean about helplessness when kitty needs attention. There are 2 wild kittens coming in and out of the yard, whose mom, of course is wild too. The white one (part Siamese), had what appeared to be a sticker in her little eye. Her eye was closed and she kept rubbing it. Being wild and unapproachable I could not help her. I borrowed a trap in the hopes I could catch her. Fortunately the next day the eye was better and what ever was in was out. But 2 months ago my little dog got a foxtail sticker in his eye and I could not get it out. He yelped every time I tried to touch around his eye. So he had to endure the night till morning to be seen by the vet.
The vet put numbing drops in the eye and proceeded to pull an inch sticker from behind what’s called the third eyelid. It had also scratched the cornea. I got medicine for the damage to the eye and he is okay. The vet told me about a cat he had treated whose owner had tried to dislodge a sticker that wouldn’t come out and it developed a fatal infection.
Needless to say, I’m glad I can count on help of the vet when my babies need help.
Take care and enjoy your little rascals. S
Sylvia: A very sweet story … it always gets to me when I see an animal sufferiong.
Jack
Margaret – I think you did good I mean by calling your girl friend but not a vet! You may consider me ‘crazy’ but you will see the less vets you get involved the more healthy your cats will be. Especially and on no account no shots. That is the beginning of the end even if the end might take a while……………
I imagine people here may not find this so interesting. And I do not really either in terms of speculations about past lives and all the rest of it. It’s about a boy who has this strong feeling he had a ‘past life’ and his Mom goes about trying to find out if it had any reality. As I say I don’t find that interesting really but I found the piece moving in that the boy’s Mother took his feelings so seriously and really listened to him. You might say overly listened to him but that would be just me saying that. It really touches me that even though he had a ‘crazy idea’ his Mom still listened and indulged him. Also I found it moving and interesting that when he finally ‘found’ his past life he felt sad and became very ‘quiet’. And the whole experience seems to have helped the boy in that now he seems to be able to ‘move on’ a bit from it. It seems like a form of therapy and the boy seems to have gone from being a bit ‘hyper active’ to being more calm. Better ‘therapy’ I would say than drugs for ADD or whatever it might be called. Guru you might find this interesting in that you have talked about death and what it means to die and is that all there is etc.
Patrick: I was curious as to why you posted the video twice? If we watch the bottom video could we interpret it as a sign that the boy “has lived before” in the first video on top?
In other words, did you purposely post the video twice as an actual physical & symbolic representation of your message? Just curious.
Anyway, I am strictly agnostic. Too big of a can of worms with this topic and I am not going to even attempt to try to change anyone’s mind over it. Just not worth it, really.
Guru – No I am not that ‘clever’ it was purely a mistake don’t know how it could have happened. So I am sorry about that but no deep ‘meanings’ at all
I wasn’t seeking your ‘opinions’ about any of this I just thought since it’s something that does seem to concern you you might find some echoes in this. Just a thought I had
Patrick: Well, thank you for posting this with me in mind. I just feel very reluctant to comment further on this. As I’m sure you can surmise, Janov would likely interpret this “past life” as the workings of a very young, growing, and incredibly complex brain with a great imagination that is seeking love and approval from both parents and the larger world around him. In possibly doing so, though, it could be said that a person re-experiencing and verbalizing childhood trauma in this life could also be the product of a hyper-active imagination, as well.
Nah, nah…these are things I wouldn’t want to touch with a 10-foot pole these days. Too many emotional standard-bearers from all sides of these arguments.
Quote:- :”Janov would likely interpret this “past life” as the workings ……..
Then an other quote later in your comment:- “Nah, nah…these are things I wouldn’t want to touch with a 10-foot pole these days.”
BUT you just did.
Jack
Funny shit!
lmao
impressed by the eloquent exchange between you and Patrick on this afterlife issue. Nice this can be a place of social interchange. To me, big group was about that. Someone likely told me that, trying on our evolving selves with our new skins. While we all need to be accountable, must be nice not to get smacked in the face with an iron frying pan for being or sharing a thought or opinion. looking out my window I think it’s going to rain…
Hey USG, I am non theist, escaped christianity long ago, don’t ascribe it a capital c because it has been such a destructive force. Stepping away from religiosity totally, do you think a spirit world is possible. I dismissed it completely until a year ago at a social gathering I saw a young man with his step dad. Then he was gone. I did not know them personally. When I recalled this later to friends they told me the boy had killed himself 10 months before; they had attended his funeral. I was unaware of his death. I am still non theist, but not quite as close minded on the possibility of a, ” spiritverse, ” so to speak. There Must be a rational explanation for my believed experience. Some electrical communication amongst the living. Radio some believe only amplifies what is distributed on the air waves.
David:
Well…I think you bring up a good point about the not being closed-minded on the possibility of a “spiritverse” as you put it. Trust me when I say there is a lot I could talk about here, yet I don’t feel energetic enough to tackle this topic for long periods of time right now.
Your observations about escaping a religion are of some noteworthy interest to me as well, for I suspect fervent religious believers can become “human furniture fixtures” blending into a temple environs and and ancient scriptures much like a vassal confined to the land of his feudal lord. As you may surmise, just because religions may be absurd in their foundations to a liberated outsider doesn’t necessarily imply the entire universe and its hundreds of billions of galaxies was simply an accident. Even in that case we may simply be in the middle of a stupendously gigantic accident that could have only been created by monumentally incredible forces that we puny humans have not begun to understand (and we may never be able to understand).
Let’s just say I think militant atheists/materialists that believe death is the eternal maw of oblivion and not knowing anything at all forever have painted themselves into a very strict corner when I believe a persistent mindfulness towards other possibilities would be more appropriate.
I’m a very loosely-defined agnostic who is purposely stopping just short of militant animal atheism where we are nothing more than talking pigs, horses, insects, and bacteria with an unusually large agglomeration of brain cells (for the reason I explained in the preceding paragraph).
Have you seen this article from Thomas Clark?
http://www.naturalism.org/death.htm
Thank you, will checkout
david
About the video like I said I found it moving because of the way the boy’s mother listened to him even if his notions were a bit ‘crazy’. I guess I want to add as a child I had lots of ideas I thought quite good at least not crazy and well was not ‘listened’ to much at all. I could imagine my Dad ‘indulging’ me with something like this but not my Mom.
My own ‘theory’ about this is the boy’s ‘memory’ is very likely a womb memory that is kind of dressed up in a story. Like in the womb I could say IS magical and wondrous and maybe ‘strange’ and I can imagine having notions like that. But what I liked here is his Mom did not just take that ‘understanding’ she LISTENED to him more importantly
I cried a little when he ‘found’ his place…………….there is a feeling of relief after all the searching and the fact that the boy who seems a bit hyper-active got so still and quiet. I feel a lot of my own ‘;hyper-activity’ comes from the inability to be still and quiet. Life was rarely like that for me it was full of stress driving me from post to pillar……………now I sort of feel I am getting near a place that is still and quiet and I sort of ‘look forward’ to it though I am sure it will also be painful.
I actually put this clip on here years ago but I think it is so funny…………….
Absolutely heartbroken, presence of Otto totally gone, and just a void, time rushing on and no ability to cry.
I hope you can eventually. No ability to cry ratchets up the suffering. How do you live with it!
All I can remember is the horrible whine (not really whine cant think of word) as he was realizing he was going to die. damn.
Yeah, I recall 21 year old Jake, Shih tzu, dying after we came back from our evening run. He had, I had forgotten, a short low volume, squeal, when I was holding him. 15 months now and I sometime forget briefly that he died. What was the relationship between you two ??
kid back from europe, now he and z can go spend time together, leave me to listen to music and weep. i know you rider, gonna miss me when im gone. too much sadness, bucket of tears, all the trails and nerve tendrils of my sorrowful life, dog gone who use to sleep with me, murdered buddy in 1973, kid number 2 who i feel so bad for the life we gave him. bucket of tears, not sure if there will be any relief, the bucket brigade of this feeling reaches to the moon.
Here I go again I guess I could say or maybe say it before others will say it……………anyway I happened to be watching Hillary Clinton electioneering in Iowa yesterday and this woman comes up to her and talks about her almost 3 y.o. daughter. Her child is on 13 medications, has it seems many many epileptic seizures per day, has all kinds of heart problems, is on a feeding tube etc etc. The mother says she doesn’t think her daughter will live so long more but she is asking Clinton about loosening the medical marijuana rules she thinks it would help her child.
Clinton nods or whatever but I immediately think……………..vaccines!! Like WHAT is going on? Why these kinds of stories and more and more of them. Of course I don’t know there are probably other factors pesticides, poisons of one kind or another, cell phones wi-fi in the home etc etc. But there is something about this that feels it is something ‘deeper’ or something more invasive to the child. I mean poisons and cell phones and all the rest of it I am sure are not good but this just seems like something MORE………………something so deep and damaging. And isn’t injecting (even that act) a one day old child ‘deep and damaging’ not to mention what is IN the injection. People may think well we all have had vaccines how can you say they are so harmful. We had………………like I said I had ONE when I was 8 y.o. and that’s all……………….but there is the sheer AMOUNT of them now and the TIME at which they are given……………
This is not only an American problem it has spread world wide, my brother in Ireland has a neighbor who has a 6 month old boy, he asked him has the boy had any vaccines, already FOUR that is at 6 months of age. I can’t just let go of talking and thinking about this it seems like a really serious problem the suffering of those babies is beyond anything that should be allowed to happen..
Another aspect of this there is this well known Brazilian soccer player Neymar who plays for Barcelona. Anyway he can’t play now for a few weeks and the reason is he has the ‘mumps’…………though the article mentioned as an after-thought that he HAD already been vaccinated for ‘mumps’. So the message I take is aside from the very serious damage vaccines are causing they do NOT WORK!. This is coming out more and more also most of the so called ‘victims’ of the so called ‘outbreak’ in Disneyland this winter had ALREADY been vaccinated! So again why the need and push for it then it doesn’t even work. Phil I wonder if their ‘measles titres’ were up or down or in the range where they might need more shots…………………..
Quote:- “I can’t just let go of talking and thinking about this it seems like a really serious problem the suffering of those babies is beyond anything that should be allowed to happen.”
Another quote:- “from the very serious damage vaccines are causing they do NOT WORK!.” How do YOU know???
It’s very understandable that you are not able to “let go” of it … but I might suggest your major concern should be right there … INSTEAD of which it seems you feel the need to be a spokesman for the cessation of the use of any vaccines; ‘keeper of the crypt’ as t’were.. My feeling is you are far from, qualified over any of these matters, BUT you are at liberty to voice your feelings about it ALL.
If you were to keep it to your feeling and stop the “anal-izing” (your word) I suspect you would get more respect Neither you nor I are qualified enough to give ANSWERS to these question, It is in just this area that Thouless talks about “crooked thinking’.
Governments and it’s leader perform the same ‘anal-izing’. They seem to know better than us peons. The medical profession performs a similar role. We’ve gotten into the habit of trusting experts … rather than leaving us to our own instincts and feelings.
There!!! that’s my feeling on the matter.
Jack … the designator of yet another “crypt”
Should had wrote “designee of another crypt”
Jack
Hi Jack. Don’t you think that the suffering of babies and world-wide injustices resonates with our own suffering. I remember being upset over so many things; every time “60 minute” program would have their weekly expose of some cataclysmic forecast: from the chemicals used in farming polluting the creeks; fracking; the ruin of farmland from over- farming turning the Midwest into a desert. Boy I really worried about those things.
I think, because I didn’t have access to my own suffering I was caught up in other’s problems.
When I did gain access to my own hurts and agonies I could be more objective and realistic about bad things happening around me. I’m not going to stop the chemical co. from doing their deeds. It’s no fun feeling hopeless and helpless over something we can’t do anything about, and I think that’s the heart of the feeling. We were once helpless to what others did to us. So much for Sunday philosophy. S
Hi Sylvia,
It is always lovely to have your thoughtful, calm, positive presence here. Please tell us how you changed your life to access your feelings.
Also, do you live near the Canadian Prairies ? – as I have a special friend there :).
L.
Leslie – I guess to pass muster with you it has to be ” thoughtful, calm, positive”………………..sorry to do this again (blame Guru)
the fact that our commercially produced food is unfit for safe , healthful consumption, that we are at an all time high for degenerative diseases, that traditional fishing waters are being approved as toxic dump sites for mining tailings, that rivers are so polluted fish and shell fish cannot be consumed before being chemically detoxified, seem fairly rational reason to conclude things may be a bit shaky in OZ, Dorothy.. I think there’s broad stroke difference between that and fearing a zombie attack. And it has happened because we happily turned over the reigns to the demagogues and settled down to bask in the glowing joy of our every evolving convenience gadgetry like smart phones and RF chip implants. That can stir up my pissed off genes.
Sylvia: I totally agree with all you say here. Once I feel I know my own past from feeling it, then it makes me less caught up in the “truths” of the matter. and hopefully more acceptable.
I am not always good at it, but I do know, that for me least-ways, that is where I have to go.
I cry very often for what I perceive are the injustices of life. All it does is put me into the feeling zone. That is what I came here to do. There’s no end game. Just the process of living … and for me it feels more full.
Jack
Very insightful Sylvia! Gretch
Well it’s all ‘old feelings’ then and forget about being ‘concerned’ about real life issues like vaccines. Got it! Of course if you are a good PR man you can simultaneously ‘cry’ and ‘cry often’ about it but if some one else is ‘concerned’ or even ‘mentions’ it it is probably a ‘mental act out’ Got is again!
Hi Sylvia
Right on.
In response of your posting eight hours ago.
Tom
So if we our Primal Pain Pool was totally drained we wouldn’t give a shit about the indignities, the genocides; or maybe intellectually just not feel anything for raped and murdered babies, ??? The I’d know I’m healthy, non neurotic, when I don’t give a fuck ??? Huh, I had a patient who used to get jealous whenever her husband was having sex with her mother or one of her sisters or brothers in the next room or on the floor in her presence. She came to therapy because she thought she had the problem, and hoped therapy would heal her… So, she was right that she needed to change her dysfunctional jealousy, her anger, upset, endless crying?? Well poo on me, I told her to run while she still had her sanity, then start therapy.
With that pacifism the chemical company can do what it wants. Our early pain and current injustices, ones that threaten the existence of our grandchildren are separate issues. Doing nothing, not screaming and marching to me is another reflection of being, a ” Prisoner of Pain.” My Indian ancestors bent over for rape and genocide. The good christians taught them that was the will of their god. I don’t plan to ever stop being pissed about that.
Credits to Guru for this……………it is SO appropriate
“There are now minions of Evidence Based PHD’s in medicine not merely MD’s who are daily publishing the documented ravishes of vaccinations; previously healthy babies dead in ICU from rapid onset illness causing massive brain damage, often only hours after measles vaccines injected. In the past month Science has established the brain has it’s own Lymphatic System and the Blood Brain Barrier is not the infallible buttress it was formerly believed to be. Pets given vaccines at the same time as being given anesthesia for neutering are brain damaged. That was established over 2 decades ago. Only now reaching that intelligent conclusion with humans ???
Studies in 2012 at UCLA SC linked morning sickness GSK drug, “ZOFRAN,” to birth defects, and families are taking … That Glaxo advertised the drug as a safe treatment for morning sickness and …tantamount, says prosecutors, to medical larceny…. NVP is called hyperemesis gravidarum and can cause malnutrition and endanger the … Glaxo-Smith-Kline now facing mega billion dollar suit before federal courts..”
Nice to know we are so well protected by a medical system we can trust and believe in.
I have a doc friend whose colleague has been documenting these tragic cases. She says they are legion and text book similar. And If anyone has taken a perfectly healthy toddler for needles then to wake to a screaming, febrile, head banging child, needing to be rushed to emerg and booked into ICU; the experience is indelible. As is watching your child having been, mind you not deliberately, euthanized.
Hi Jack and Leslie. Yes, Jack, I agree that is why we are here, to feel and live better. Leslie, thank you for the compliment. I am always thrown by nice words–so a big feeling for me. I think in the 2 yrs. that I’ve been reading the blog it has been partly what’s helped me to access my feelings. I remember your saying that we don’t have to cover up how or who we are anymore. If we don’t feel like we are good enough, or confident or popular then be ok with that instead of over-riding it, denying it. That’s how I felt too–I cannot deny any more that I’ve not got it together. There were times on the blog before I was brave enough to write where things really bothered me and I would have arguments in my head (especially over the infamous feud). Somehow I would work out some of my family dynamics through them and even lost sleep over some. I also listened to music which I had put aside for years because it brought up such loneliness in me. I began to find feelings in movies too.
But I have to say my defenses were already crumbling from taking care of my mom who suffered from dementia. I developed several physical problems from the stress and was pretty much a mess mentally too. So I was primed for a reboot.
I suffered with a lot of anxiety, so I think letting myself feel that was helpful. I also had a “people” fear, so in writing on the blog I risked being criticized and seen. I tried to be honest with myself. What were my motives for doing something–was I just trying to get attention. I still have anxiety but I’m more able to enjoy things. I think I don’t get bored feeling more open to things. I live in rural northern California. I am always glad to read your input here too, Leslie. S
It is interesting Sylvia, how just reading the blog changed your perspective on life and how to live it, and how you transitioned to being more open to your internal life, without formal therapy. Reading the Primal Scream sort of did something like that for me. By what you’ve shared about what you’ve learned in just a couple of years, seems like you have a lot of innate wisdom.
You write about your mom in the past tense. Did she pass away, if you don’t mind me asking?
Hi Larry. It’s been 3 1/2 years since my mom has passed. I had mixed feelings for her because though I loved her very much my adult years with her were not totally happy.
I wish she would have let me be more of a friend, but she was more of a take charge type and my personality kinda got submerged.
My “therapy” hasn’t been smooth. Getting overloaded and feeling things I wasn’t ready for was risky. I think the smart way is to have a therapist.
Thanks for explaining Sylvia! I find it amazing that you were/are able to go there yourself. It really does open up new territory and also no matter what, once we have it again – (better if we’ve never lost in the first place of course!) -with some attention its always there.
I like that. Things don’t have to be so complicated – when I know what I am feeling. Not that I always like what I am feeling – because I don’t, but the fear /confusion of it and the automatic cover-up are all things I am glad to be dropping.
Rural northern California is a beautiful place to live!
L.
nicely expressed; being vulnerable; a biggy for me, rejection, made the fool, on, and on. not easy but wearing the mask I think would be harder. mine was early issue, didn’t know I was wearing it.
Sylvia:
I think you are our new Sunday font of wisdom based on the feedback from everyone. Philosophy Sundays with Sister Sylvia, as you suggested in an earlier post today. You’re on a roll now. Are you coming back next week?
PS. What’s this infamous feud you are referring to?
Thank you, Gretchen. No, Guru; it’s your turn next week. The feud was the famed Jack and Pat story.
Sylvia: I’ve been here on the blog since its inception circa 2008-2009. It’s time for some newcomers and fresh voices. I’d still hang around here, but I’d like to step aside a bit more nowadays.
2009
Wasting my time here but fuck it………….this ‘trick’ of being such a ‘feeler’ than one can ‘cry’ and ‘cry often’ maybe at time have ‘tears stream down the face’ about world issues……………….and yet to simultaneously be vigilant about dismissing ANY mention of them by someone else (me for example!) as just some crazed mental act out or something is an amazing trick………………and only a trick someone who was a devious lying PR man would even ATTEMPT……………….but there you have it he does………………another fine primal therapy success story
Guru – I blame you totally on this
Fuck it…………..one more time
This NOOOOO video bender Patrick is on reminds me of a quote from Paul Vereshack I once really loved:
“If you are right and I am wrong, my sense of being wrong might start to spread and I will fall into an abyss of wrongness where I will disintegrate and become nothing and die. Anything external to us can trigger this kind of terror in us. Rather than suffer the abyss of wrongness, we will defend ourselves, we will not hear, we will distort, and we will maintain our truth at all costs. It is this terror which generates the opinions we hold and causes us to try to neutralize the opinions of others.”
…………..and your point is?……………………
I like this quote very much Guru!
Please nobody needs to ‘worry’ about me I am just doing ‘primal scream therapy’ here just tires of all the ‘primal therapy talk’ business…………………
Thank you for being here, blog friends, for being vulnerable, real human beings willing to explore and willing to try to understand. I was with some people this morning, and at the gym this afternoon, but when I’m alone at home, the aloneness is deep and pervasive and lately exhausts me. Connecting with you on the blog this evening has made me feel better and given me strength. I think because of the honest, open, human connection and sharing that can happen here, I don’t feel quite so life-sapping alone as I did earlier this evening.
Odd, Larry that it’s called the ” ‘real’ world.”
> Sylvia,
> wish those kittens, cats, and of course you the best, must be hard indeed to see that problem without being able to take care of it..
> M and kittens
> UG,
> I liked that long quote you posted about being wrong, feeling wrong and what it can trigger.
> M
Seems I have been ‘censored’ oh well just as well I suppose Gretchen was probably (again?) saving me from myself or trying to………..still we have a bit of ‘censorship’ here a lot of my comments seems a bit nonsensical without it but probably most people (here at least though I don’t think in a lot of other (better?) places might not think so whatever………………
I write about the H Clinton vaccine interaction well in the spirit of that is what is on my mind good or bad not saying it is ‘good’ but it is what is on my mind. And I think a bit in the spirit of that video about the Scottish boy who had ideas some people might consider ‘crazy’ but it’s his internal truth and his Mother was sensitive and smart enough to know not to just shut him up, criticize him etc. tell him he is wrong he makes no sense blah blah blah……………..in that ‘spirit’ and I think well this IS a ‘primal’ blog that should be fine right? though deep down or actually on the surface I know PR man never sleeps and is always ‘lurking’ like a spider with his web he is waiting for an unwary fly to wander into his territory and then fly ‘your dead’ the spider will have him for lunch or breakfast or supper. PR man is like that I went away for 2 weeks and he gets into the SAME shit with Guru, provoking, distorting and distracting he needs that for some reason I see all that and ok I am glad it’s not me someone else for a change. But Guru does not really care he told me he does not take PR man seriously but I think still it’s hurts his feeling on some level or maybe it doesn’t maybe that’s just ‘overly touchy’ me.
Anyway disappointing enough he does respond and in all the usual ways quoting me back several times, a maniac who can’t stop using the Ctrl-C button and what an insult that is, criticizing, finding ‘crooked thinking’ the usual farrago of bullshit, very intolerant and hateful of course towards me. The whole post is full of ‘crooked thinking’ he apparently knows a lot about that subject he complains how we are supposed to trust authority, doctors etc who claim to know what is good for us. I even agree with him there but here I am actually NOT trusting doctors and authority but of course I am still doing something ‘wrong’ I am not ‘qualified’ the usual puts downs. I am also ‘not qualified’ to have an opinion about PT but the funny thing is I AM ‘qualified’ I was a great ‘believer’ in it I ‘studied’ it deeply before I came here and from MY EXPERIENCE it is/was not even close to the ‘claims’ that were made for it and still are. But I am supposed to shut up and I think the contrast with that Scottish mother could hardly be greater.
It does not overly ‘bother’ me I mean I should know by now it’s the usual crap the usual one up manship just something he can’t help doing. I have some ‘advice’ also to guide me, Fiona’s ‘don’t engage EVER’ Larry’s ‘practice self control, or Guru ‘don’t take him seriously’. I go to the beach feel fine all day even ‘meditate’ on this nonsense from PR man on the blog I am OK with it, won’t respond etc Dr Kruse has a Q&A at 4pm I have better things to do focus on that I have more wholesome and helpful interests and concerns that dueling with a PR man
I have trouble getting on the call on the computer, not the first time but manage to listen on the phone but it’s not as good, can’t put questions there are people there I want to ‘chat’ with etc can’t on the phone. But it’s OK get the info ……………but the info is not that ‘good’ He is going on about this 4G ‘roll out’ and makes it sound bad and actually scary. It will amount to having a WiFi signal on ALL THE TIME and WHEREVER you are! It will make the electro-magnetic smog picture worse maybe a lot worse. Now you can not have a cell phone (I don’t) and you can not have WiFi at home (I don’t) but this is a new and worse situation. Maybe we CANNOT escape it Dr Kruse makes it sound like maybe the beginning of the end for life and not just human life animal life, fish life even plant life. A bit ‘apocalyptic’ make that a lot apocalyptic so well something else to worry about a new worry, this seems never to end, dangers everywhere, life on the brink the brink of extinction. It IS happening but we are doing it to ourselves most of all so we have not only vaccines to watch out for the ‘powers that be’ it seems WILL get us we are all dead meat really things look bleak………………
Then I look at the blog again, now we have PR man ‘crying’ and ‘crying often’ (what a good boy what a ‘feeler’ what an excellent altar boy for primal) but ‘crying’ about the situation in the world. The VERY thing he is all over me about if I even MENTION it, so as usual rank hypocrisy, one law for primal upper class the champion ‘feelers’ another for not ‘qualified’ people like me. He is English of course snobbery is so second nature to them they WILL have an ‘upstairs/downstairs’ attitude even it ir kills them. They can’t help it it’s deep in their alien(ated) souls if they even have
souls I have seen no evidence of any. And OF COURSE the primal verities are invoked it’s just a feeling, he ‘brags’ some more he goes to the ‘feeling zone’ with it all he is of course then ‘approved’ for all that first by Sylvia but to be fair to her she does open by asking doenst’ the suffering of a dying 3 year old ‘resonate’ with us all. an excellent question and a great opening but it goes down hill from there as usual, she no longer ‘worries’ about the environment etc etc the more she feels the feeling the less she cares about the world or words to that effect. But it’s ok too and I even agree with that I find the same thing it’s a reality we DO I DO ‘project’ my own bad feeling on global warming the coming ‘extinction event’ etc. It’s ok if a bit ‘churchy’ the as I say usual primal ‘verities’ just a religion really. Repeat their mantras ignore the real world so life can b e on the brink of extinction and these dopes will just ‘console’ themselves like monks in the Middle Ages or something but PR man ‘cries’ about the real world too and it seems almost every day that’s what a champion ‘feeler’ he is He is top of the class there just a ‘feeler’ to end all ‘feelers’ the one and true altar boy of Arthur Janov who was never near an altar at least not a Catholic one or a Muslim one. Anyway they are all ‘neurotic’ but he has his OWN religion now and the ‘followers’ to prove it
Anyway the ‘churchiness’ is deep but apparently not deep enough now Gretchen has to ‘weigh in’ and add to the ‘churchiness’ she finds what Sylvia says so ‘wise’ Is it really? It’s not bad as I say I even ‘agree’ with it but ‘wise? Well not really but Gretchen is of course close to being ‘head of the Church’ so now it’s Sunday evening and to me the world is going from bad to worse but here is this freaking Church…………….the Church of primal verities……………repeat after me and even THAT would not be enough if I did it PR man would find that to be ‘wrong’ too and ‘crooked thinking’ to boot so I thought NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!…………………that’s where Luke Sky walker comes in and even Darth Vader mumbles something about FEELINGS (screamed in that Winston Churchill like squawk) and again I thought NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patrick: I don’t think you were censored by Gretchen with her removing your multiple “Luke Skywalker” clips. From what I understand, spamming a lot of embedded Youtube clips on a single page can overload the RAM on older PC’s and/or modern smartphones with smaller memory capabilities.
It just makes the page a lot harder to load. More of a procedural cleanup rather than eliminating your thoughts ala “Fahrenheit 451”.
I suspect Janov has been enormously more worrisome in this area than Gretchen.
I wonder if Guru or David have any knowledge or thoughts about this so called 4G (4th Generation) networks etc………………..
only that it is supposed to have been an improvement over 3 G and that 5 G is in the works; my brain doesn’t go over to the tech side, Luke..
This is a song for today and yesterday too……………..Desolation Row……………………..a lot in that………………..PR men, suicides, prophets and seers and all on Desolation Row…………….Bob Dylan was a far seeing dude………………..song for the 6th Extinction Event………………
>
> just saw a very good documentary about the Grunge, focusing on Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, but also full of interviews and music of R.E.M. and the Pixies and Pearl Jam etc., and how they grew into their styles.
> of course a lot too about how Cobain drifted into depression and drug addiction, ending with the heartbreaking unplugged version of Girl where did you sleep last night..
>
> it really resonated, the tragic loss of a talented young man , overwhelmed by his pain when actually making it, not knowing how to break the cycle, the downward spiral, even with a young kid.
> they did not say what happened to Courtney Love and the kid, wish they had,as I am not up to date with that musical era, am more of a seventies chick..
>
> reminded me though of losing my own partner to a sudden drug related death.
>
> I used up about seven or maybe even eight of my nine cat lifes to it as well, so I better watch out now..
> users seemed to be very close to their pain a lot of the time, I actually liked most of them despite their obvious problems and despite the fact you should not leave most of them alone with your valuables..
>
> so much wasted energy, and barely covered pain, makes me wonder if they would not make very good patients if kept long enough out of reach of dope during their therapy..
>
> well, yeah, I am a rescuer by nature I guess, but better to be too optimistic than the other way around..
> maybe one day I will try to finish a book I once started about my own life, there is so much to tell, too much reallly as after 150 pages I am still only early twenties, haha, maybe I should make it a trilogy..
>
> so much to do, too little time and not enough energy to do it all..
> off to clean the litter boxes now….
> M
There’s a really good article written by a Tears to Fears band member. They had applied to come to PI, but then success happened. He wrote how fandom, like the other gods, money, fame power,are self cannibalizing; can never get full ; never enough; romantic love of one devoted lover never enough. His pain of living must have been tremendous. I know when I planned my aborted suicide, it was clearly the best answer for me. Now, after pt I could only do that if incurably terminal and I would become nursing care.
You wrote about users, Margaret; my friend who introduced me to Primal in the 70’s, maintained that substance addicts had by far the best outcomes; because their drug of choice was their defense system. Even with psychotic patients diligent withdrawal of meds saw dramatic response. Being one who self numbed my defenses weren’t so easily dismantled. And when I lost
60 lbs of blubber and gained muscle in LA’s underground furniture moving business, that of course was rewarded.
“LA’s underground furniture moving business”………………I like that makes it sound almost ‘cool’ I still need to write that story. Funnily enough to-day I was thinking about it and felt like actually writing it. Don’t want to build it up too much it’s just another crazy story but it IS pretty crazy………………….(to be continued)
I am so lucky to have had yet another incredible experience this summer after the absolute gem of a Retreat. With air miles I was able to join my brother, his partner and my Mom to celebrate her last year’s 85th birthday. We flew to Haida Gwaii – “Canada’s Galapagos” ~1hr. 40min. flight north of Vancouver. Wow!
So pristine and glorious to truly be in the deep woods, on the long, wide vacant beaches all while soaking up the misty weather. Weather like the Maritimes David !
Also, thought so often of Larry and Sandy as your cities as well as ours have such horrendous histories and present disconnects with our First Nations population. How wonderful to be among the Haida and see and feel their pride and culture. That my brother partner’s family is Haida and have lived there meant that we were invited to some very special sights/ceremony.
Inspiring and relaxing – such a great combination for a holiday!
Leslie – I think we have so much to learn from all these indigenous cultures, they are so much wiser, kinder and smarter than any of the ‘developed’ cultures will ever be it seems. And that includes the ‘alienated’ people of the developed world (primal people for example) even they have nothing on those older cultures.
That’s one reason I found that interview with Ortiz the guy who Janov says ‘inspired’ the primal scream so interesting. Ortiz looked for wisdom in aboriginal culture and not the kind of ‘modern’ screaming as he seemed to feel about primal therapy. And I would agree with him pretty much he seemed a deeper and more rooted person than Janov all the screaming notwithstanding……………………….
Nice to hear you are having a wonderful and meaningful holiday, Leslie. From your description I can imagine some of what it might be like and wish I could experience it.
Sometimes it’s hard to believe our forebears had so little empathy as to be OK with enslavement of other human beings. But we don’t acknowledge the enslavement today of people working at low minimum wage, or of people trapped in under nourishing, deprived, broken social conditions such as many First Nations communities are. Sometimes I don’t think were a lot different than former slave owners who cared only about their own bottom line.
Helping prepare our spiritual retreat for a Mawiomi this week. My native ancestry does not show, except for my lifetime hated long ears..hah; but I’m accepted as, ” red inside.” There is something about walking on that ground. I never received a manual when I began the Red Road, but I knew I was home.
On reflection:-
A recent blogger put forth a comment that spent more time talking about me than himself. I am not sure why I am designated the Primal Therapy flag bearer … particularly in view of the fact that I have not attended a session, group or retreat for more and 7 years now. The reason: I am now able, after 30 years of therapy, to get into feeling on my own or, if I find it a little difficult … to call on a buddy. Should it get really bad I would take a session or two or more.
I know I am not the pupular guy on the blog and that many see my inadequasis, idiocities and stupidities, but I am the expert on me and MY therapy. I only know of others through their comments here on this blog, and “yes”, in commenting, as I was recently reminded; I say more about myself than anything or anyone I may comment upon
What I would say to those that read this blog, but have their own trepidations about making a commnent:- “Don’t be afraid to make a fool of yourself. You couldn’t ever make a bigger fool of yourself than me … not that, that’s any real consolation, BUT by venturing here you will get to test the waters of your own therapy results”
No one will ever be a bigger smart ass than me, which is why I need to own a smart car. Leaving oneself to be vulnerable, to being rediculed can never be worse than what most of us got in childhood. Now that we are big girls and boys, we have a few more rescourses to calm ourselves, than we had way back then. So!!! come on in; dip your toes in; it’s very surprising what we learn about ourselves. Nothing compared with early childhoods; for most of us … no-where near THAT bad
See you (read you) here.
Jack
I notice the ‘delicacy’ about a recent blogger etc………….which makes a nice change what does NOT change though is still the constant ‘judge-mentality’ as if in talking about oneself is ‘good’ taking about another is ‘bad’……………..that is the kind of silly time wasting you are well known for……………..but maybe more to the point if talking about oneself is so ‘good’ and talking about or especially criticizing another person is so ‘bad’……………..THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU DO IT THEN AND CONSTANTLY…………….all your ‘quoting back’ all your snipes and accusations of ‘crooked thinking’ etc isn’t that ONLY talking about the other person……………I don’t really think you are a ‘stupid’ man but you act very f..;… stupid. Maybe as Barry says ‘our pain MAKES us stupid” and as I commented to him ‘well then doing primal therapy (as the least the way you seem to do it) KEEPS us stupid. Are you trying to drag more people into your farrago of nonsense, maybe you need ‘new’ victims like the spider and the fly some of the flies start to know your tricks a bit………………why would anyone in their right mind be dragged into your web……………….you are maybe slightly ‘ashamed’ for a day or two (though I am under no illusion you have ‘learned’ anything, learning does not go much with a PR attitude it’s all ‘spin’ and ‘positioning’ as you seem to be doing now ‘re-inventing’ yourself as they sometimes call it) to do your quoting back so it seems you want some new ‘meat’…………….the spider is hungry for some new flies……………
Quote from your August 17th @ 4:53 am:- “I was a great ‘believer’ in it, I ‘studied’ it deeply before I came here “. BUT seemingly; just when Leslie Pam tried to take you to the ‘promised land’ you chirruped in with “What’s the point?” Denying yourself of the promise and totally negating all your studying.” Therein is the great pity … so now all you are left with is attempting to denigrate the “keeper of the crypt”.
Why does being quoted irk you so badly? I would have thought you might have seen it as a compliment. Ah well!!! there’s no accounting for what thrills another.
Jack
So are you talking about yourself now (‘good’) or me (‘bad;)……………to borrow your own silly rigid categories………………….I honestly gave my reaction at the time (is that ‘bad’) or would you have a ‘good’ or a ‘better’one. You are a world class idiot and anything I ‘share’ will just be dragged back and used against me. Still talking about another then (bad? no tell me or please don’t I have heard your nonsense so many times already. Please try to find some new flies I can’t imagine I taste good to you anymore……………..as far as ‘asking for what you want’ Tom V said he had a similar reaction go away and ‘pick’ on him or ‘quote’ him. I thought this whole thing of ‘ask for what you wan’t’ was a very ineffective therapeutic tool and my impression is I was far from the only one. Of course you being such a ‘winner’ never had any problems at all it all went perfect for you………………the very definition of a PR man. PR stands for ‘public relations’ in case you have forgotten. I notice again you try to ‘tag’ me with ‘failure’ just more PR from the self reported ‘success’ and ‘winner’ you are…………………..as I said you came to therapy ‘gay’ and ended up ‘gayer’ so please tell us PR man what exactly changed for you……………….
Knowing how to feel more … and hence thinking less … and the high that I get from it.
Jack
This is much clearer and better sound of “The Spider and the Fly” but I wanted the other one for the graphic………………..
Not really wanting to just have another ’round’ with Jack but to try to broaden it out a bit (OMG I can already see that being ‘quoted back’) but to try to focus on this thing of the therapist saying ‘ask for what you want’ and I just gave what my reaction was at the time. And I found it interesting Tom V had or even still has a similar reaction. Well I guess it will have to be about Jack unfortunately at least to some degree…………..he immediately tries to ‘use’ that as evidence of ‘failure’ on my part. Like immediately blame the patient or you might accurately say blame the victim
Which bring to my mind (OMG I used the word ‘mind’ he will jump on that) anyway the ‘authoritarianism’ at the heart of PT certainly of ‘classic’ PT. At any point if things are not going well blame the patient. This was deep in Janov’s original ‘system’ remember not letting the guy go to the bathroom (“Don’t piss away your feelings”) this was part of EST and other authoritarian ‘systems’ at the time. But what I am thinking about now (OMG I used the word ‘thinking’ – more quotes) is certain people like Jack internalize that authoritarianism so completely that they can never see any imperfections ever in the ‘therapy’ all the ‘fault’ and blame is to go ONLY to the patient. In that way it is some kind of classic recreation of a hateful father figure, but where one has no power the only option is to ‘adore’ the bigger power.
Of course it leads to self hatred but also it does not wash with ‘rebellious Irish’ like me. We of course had our own authoritarianism in the Catholic Church but we also had our own native rebelliousness where we DON’T just bow down and see all the fault in us. I mean we do also of course but in the case of PT well to me at least I could not see how it ‘deserved’ that status. When I came here the place was clearly a shambles, Thorazine was being handed out like candy, suicides started to rock the place, the Medical Director ‘genius’ became a rabid Jesus Freak, I don’;t know where Jack was during all this but anyway no matter how flaky and silly most of the stuff they did any ‘complaining’ was and even still is by the likes of Jack evidence of I dunno ‘failure’ ‘not getting it’ or whatever. Blame the patient at all times!!
For a long time me still as a ‘true believer’ used to kind of think well the ‘theory’ is still very good it’s just the ‘practice’ that has gone off the rails.Now I am inclined to think (oh shit another quote) nothing happens in a vacuum and the ‘theory’ is pretty faulty also. Where does it go wrong? Above all i would say in putting ‘feelings’ in some kind of special realm ‘outside’ of reality you might say. Or ‘feelings’ as something in themselves as a friend of mine says ‘feelings as the ultimate commodity’ feelings split of from what they refer to. So then they try to ‘induce’ feelings, evoke or bring out feelings but feelings always refer to ‘something’ they are not things in themselves. If you put feelings in some special realm then it takes ‘specialists’ like Dr Janov and it
turns out ONLY Dr Janov to deal with them. He slaps his TM (trade mark) on them and how they are to be handled. He tried to patent’ the word “Pain” apparently pain with a capital “P”. And that is the direction things went in and unfortunately led the whole thing to be a ‘soft cult’ with less and less meaning and relevance to the real world
Gretchen has tried and succeeded to a degree to make things better and this blog is a good example. It is open it is free it is random and free from all the things feeling should be and are.That’s why I believe (another quote??) in talking about WHATEVER is on my mind. Not being is some sub world of ‘feelings’. So I might have to start talking about Donald Trump and speculate how he will be ‘brought down’. My prediction now is he will do it to himself but if not and if that does not pan out some ‘anti-Semitic’ thought or action will be found and THAT will bring him down. Just wait for it……………….he knows everybody maybe once when Yassar Arafat was in NY at the United Nations he held his pistol for a minute or something……………….
Quote:- “Where does it go wrong?” Wrong question … “Where did I go wrong”.
I’ll take a shot at this again with you, not because this spider likes eating you fly ‘Patrick’, but because at 63 you begin to taste not so good anymore. AND you anal-izing of me is way off … you never were attractive to me in that realm.
When I first read “The Primal Scream” I went to see the guy that lent me the book and asked if I could hang onto it for a day or two longer as I felt I needed to read it again … just to make sure that I got it right first time. Knowing me, I had a nasty habit of getting things wrong on first take … so I re-read it and ‘voila’ I did get it right first time.
Now I had another problem … how to get $8,000 together plus, leave my lovely farm house on top of a mountain and get over to the U.S.A. Then I heard that The Campbell’s (Wendy and Bernard) living in Cambridge were thinking of opening an English Institute. So! the trip to London was cheap enough and a train to Cambridge was within what little cash I had. So I wrote them, got an appointment and duly set off.
I turned up on time was impressed with Cambridge (my first visit ever) and was lead into their living room for an hours chat with Wendy. I knew one thing only when I set off and that was DOING Primal Therapy was something I had to allow MYSELF to do … AND that no-one; not the best therapist of all, Arthur himself, was going to do it either for me OR, to me. I may have mentioned this to Wendy during that interview. At the end she just said to me (along with telling me that as yet there was no English Institute created), and I quote:- “You seem to have a very intelligent attitude towards Primal therapy … al-be-it that your intelligence is your greatest defense” Those two phrases stuck in my head AND; I pondered THEM for quite some time, days perhaps weeks, can’t off hand remember how long.
So from there on in I collected enough money to get to London and bough me a one way ticket on Brannon Air Lines to Los Angeles.
I was armed only with knowing that doing the therapy was “up to me” and that my biggest defense was my intellect; that up until that point in my life I was very proud of. Now “by fuck” I was going to have to let it go.
It was, and still is MY major struggle. I can race right back into my head at the drop of a hat. But I had one ‘trump card in my quiver’. I knew just exactly what it felt like to be a two year old baby screaming at the top of my lungs “I am dying, I’m dying”. That one experience; knowing how differently being two years old and my mammy was gone and no-on came to me when I called out … set me off on a path that would have been a crib death … except my mammy did eventually turn up … freaked, when she saw me, because I was blue all over and she carried and shook me in her arms for over an hour … she many years later told me. She had left me in my cot (crib) but taking the other two babies with her because she realized she was upset to be pregnant with a fourth … to talk to neighbors. Her words to me, when she related that story to me in my twenties, was:- “Please God … don’t take the one I have and I’ll be grateful for the one that you are now giving me”
I repeat to you Patrick:- your “STUDYING” of Primal Therapy was the equivelant to my intellectualizing it; AND Wendy Campbell, letting me know ‘IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS’ that my intelligence was my greatest defense.
That scream “I’m dying” is still there within me … and will remain until the day I die. Ironically; maybe paradoxically; it saved me. QED
Jack
That’s a very interesting story, I visited the Campbells in Cambridge too (1974) I had no idea you did also. I wonder though why the QED Euclid was one of the greatest ‘head trippers’ and you still adhere to that. I don’t life will ever be a geometric proof.But thanks that’s a good story and gives me something to think (oops!) about.
I was not implying you ‘fancied’ me I feel pretty much only hostility and manipulation as I imagine a fly might (as an image)
The lazy-dog syndrome
I remember well my first lesson in classical geometry. The teacher (Miss Mannion) walked into the classroom, looked at us all very sternly, then turned to the blackboard and began writing the following:-
To prove: That a lazy dog equals a piece of foolscap.
Data: A piece of foolscap and a lazy dog.
Proof: A piece of foolscap = an ink-lined plane.
An inclined plane = a slope up.
A slow pup = a lazy dog.
Therefore: A lazy dog = a piece of foolscap. Q. E. D.
For the life of me I never remembered what QED meant, but my Jimbo informed me it meant “Quod Erat Demonstadat” What I clearly remember is that the teacher said to think of it as:- “Quite Easily Done” That’s what I mean when I finish off one of my ‘epistles’ with QED. No big task for me in other words. .Hope that clarifies my {s}tinking on this matter. Just by way of interest what did you get out of seeing the Campbell in Cambridge????.
Jack
Quod erat demonstrandum (QED) the way I understand it is “Thus is it proved”…………nothing to do with quite easily done. So for me it always means “I have proved it”. Anyway…………..meeting the Campbells was fine and I felt even at that time I VERY much wanted to do PT in England/Ireland NOT the USA. This was 1974 and they told me they should/would open in the UK in 1976. So I went back and finished my degree and then called them in late 1975. This was from a public call box in London no phone at home dumping 10p coins in like crazy to keep the phone from cutting off. Wendy Campbell who I was speaking to was curt to the point of being unfriendly and icily informed me there were no plans at this time to open in the UK. It was horrible news for me so I keep hanging on and asking/pleading ‘but you said etc etc’ At some point she announced in a kind of haughty upper class English voice “I have to go now I am hosting a dinner party”. Click……………..a bad day for me and I have to say after all these years my instincts about not wanting to come to the USA were sound at least for me. I came here because I ‘had’ to and that was the first piece of ‘violence’ I suffered at the hands of the PI or at the hands of my desperation to do it.
My Jimbo’s interpretation was very similar “”Thus it is demonstrated” Ms Mannion was of course just using a phrase as a manner of remembering the acronym. But since I was never able to remember the latin I stuck with the other.
Yeah! too bad about your second communication, phone call with Wendy Campbell. My second visit in their country home somewhere in Suffolk was met with something similar, but not quite as bad since I turned up with two others. Indeed on the second visit she was also curt and short, but since the first one was the one I took to remembering; I left it at that. What I got from my reading of “The Primal Scream” was the mechanisms of the DEFENSE system. Wendy Campbell made that abundantly clear to me, and that is what I took to Los Angeles and the Institute. Maybe I was lucky as I had been very aware of “Defending” when I read Freud many years before. Such than; when statement were put back to me by my therapist, I felt I knew where she was taking me, and was NEVER offended by that practice. Such questions as “What’s the feeling” were valid to me and I then had to do some head searching. These day I now do it to myself Like when our very own Superstar suggested that there was something going on with me about him I knew he had a point and set out to answer him/it. The alternative, for and to me, would have been to defend against his remark.
I have since understood she is the mother of Jonti one of the therapist at Janov’s center, from her first marriage. But don’t take my word on that … just part of the ‘rumour mill’ that floated around some time ago.
Meantime is there any chance that you could re-consider: it was your notion that the therapy was all wrong. Due to your perceived expectations … and that you yourself twisted the notion …. rather than consider that YOU wanting to be “right”. (a hallmark of neurosis as I see it) and why I quoted Shakespeare’s “Dear Brutus, It is not in our star; but in ourselves that we are underlings” Julius Caesar, for those not in the know.
Jack
Jack – you misunderstand an awful lot about me………….of course I would ‘re-consider’ and I do, I re-consider everything on a fairly regular basis as strange as that may sound……….but to be honest here I am very wary of expressing any ‘re-considering’ with you around I feel you will use it against me – maybe more my fear but anyway there it is. Also I think you do a lot more QED than me, your mind is ‘logical’ or ‘digital’ mind is much more ‘quantum’ or ‘contra-dictory’ at least it seems that way to me. When Dr Kruse talks about QED as he does quite a bit it means “Quantum Electro Dynamics” and that is more to my liking than Euclid. You are a bit in the past with that one…………………
Does anyone EVER fully understand any other person? I don’t think so. Feeling misunderstood is:- a feeling that I consider goes way back. Accepting that one will be, for the most part, minsunderstood is, for me, a better approach. If then I am asked to clarify, I will … no big deal. But that’s not how my Jimbo sees it. His response is to sigh and “oh! god” a regular statement my father was prone to use. So! seemingly, I picked a another Daddy.
Since we live in a world of interacting with other people and ALL we have to go by (my contention) is the feeling their re-action brings up in us/me … hense I re-act to just that, with the one caveat, that I OWN my feeling. There is no-other or thing to BLAME. I don’t see you doing that. Hence my pokes.
Jack
wow, two of the best things I have read you and jack write. Bloody magnificent; don’t know why but I’m lump in my throat teary. When you are not so pissed off that what comes through is just pissed off, you write some of the most astounding stuff, that really moves me. Same with USG. Nothing mundane or everyday ordinary from you guys, same with Otto. Being a survivor I know what we’re capable of and yet I hear stories and I too still say, ” How the fuck did he/she ever make it. Why don’t they end it.” Since learning the primal process I believe I would now only kill myself if stricken with incurable, painful disease that would have me dependent on personal care workers. That feeling of a rope around my neck has after nearly 30 aware years finally gone from staring blankly, mouth agape to me crying and pissed off. The bastards aren’t going to take anything else from me. Fucking and parenthood aren’t necessarily related.
This evening I feel a bit like Otto, basing on what he writes here. This evening I have zilch energy, no motivation, 0 drive or interest in anything except maybe eating. I don’t know how he carries on day after day. If I don’t primal out this feeling soon life won’t feel like worth much.
I’m remembering a photograph that I have of me taken when I was probably 5 or 6. In the photo my siblings and I are playing with Sta-Lox toy building bricks on the hardwood floor of our parents’ as yet unfurnished living room in their recently built house. I’m glancing toward the camera, but my look is hollow, as if I’m totally self-absorbed in design and construction with the Sta-Lox…as a way to detach myself from my need and my life. Even though in play with my siblings, my body posture has the look of hurting. I look very alone in my soul. I look like I have a big need to cry and be held and reassured. I never was. That’s still me. I never will get from my parents what I need, but I have to go out and make my way in the world anyway.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=sta-lox+building+bricks&espv=2&biw=1169&bih=895&site=webhp&tbm=isch&imgil=4eOty3lSSOJ8mM%253A%253BfCBMCZYgKgyNBM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fatthemanse.wordpress.com%25252F2014%25252F12%25252F26%25252Fwhat-did-i-get-for-christmas-vintage-building-blocks%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=4eOty3lSSOJ8mM%253A%252CfCBMCZYgKgyNBM%252C_&usg=__6NCtum5FV2qFgJdmergTb2z7XPk%3D&ved=0CEEQyjdqFQoTCOag47qwtscCFQpciAodQjcEvg&ei=yxvVVaaPCoq4oQTC7pDwCw#imgrc=4eOty3lSSOJ8mM%3A&usg=__6NCtum5FV2qFgJdmergTb2z7XPk%3D
USG,
On 8/14/15 you asked:
Donal: Do you think that you might be more inclined to say the original study of the “4 meaningful minutes” is baloney because you possibly carry a bias related to your being younger and married for fewer years (and, thus more likely to talk longer than someone older and married for a longer period as implied from the second study)?
My answer: No, I do not think there is a bias. I think there are a lot of variables in married relationships. People go through stages where they may talk less, and there are a high number of possible causes, many which occur simultaneously. Furthermore, you cannot measure the quality of communication based on the number of minutes talking. Some drama queens may talk endlessly and achieve little in terms of connecting with their spouse. Others may be able to relate effectively and spend far less time talking.
Studies like this are only meaningful as part of a greater body of research that moves in the direction of much more specific samples, hypotheses and conclusions. Quoting the results of studies like this in isolation is done a lot in magazines and popular news websites, but it just results in people jumping to simplistic conclusions,
Donal
Donal:
Just to be clear, these studies were from an email I received and I don’t have a any real emotional stake in their correctness. It was just a light conversational piece to me that looked interesting, nothing more.
dear friend Donal; I once broke the covenant and posted some general, though I thought, worthwhile, article. The nettles stripes have nearly healed……. written with humourous attitude; ( I have disgust for acronyms, except for, ‘ IJPML ‘. ) and, they’re a bitch for sight challenged folks.
Donal: I am inclined to agree with you on this matter of statistics. The simple idea with respect to statistics is averages.. Were it is that there is only a need for a linear views of studies it would be very easy, BUT if one is serious about getting an overall picture of some type of events then there needs to be a sifting of the groupings to make a clear picture … but even then … because of all the possible endless variables, it becomes a major task to make those grouping and hence hard to give a clear general overview.
Why I feel there has been a great emphasis on statistical studies has more to do with the ego of those doing the studying. We are inundated with studies and in the end, most of the tell us little or nothing. Your comment demonstrated the case in point succinctly, as I see it. Do we in the end need them??? Therein lies a great question; particularly in the medical, and the mental health field.
I feel that Arthur Janov demonstrates the dangers of basing patients on some statistical analysis. In other scientific areas there might be some justification, but as I see it more to do with a continuance in some area of investigation rather than reaching (an assumed) conclusions. Otherwise I feel the reliance on statistics, gives no REAL answers.
Jack
Someone who disagrees with your perceived enemy becomes your friend..
QED
Guru – I have noticed that ‘syndrome’ over and over again as relates to me. You could also look at another way I said something quite similar to Donal about the same subject -statistics’- but did he ‘agree’ with that. Of course not.Like I say I see him as a “PR” man above all else – just as his ‘hero’ Janov is at all times a PR man.
Patrick: Yes, you did indeed ……… but not quite so clearly. So!! if it hurt your “bleeding heart” (meant as a swear word) hope it give you another kick-off (your favorite sport … football) for a rant, tantrum or, whatever. You are becoming quite “cute” (another quote) at those.
PR man (for those still no yet in the know) Jack 🙂 🙂 🙂 .
I actually thought it was some kind of computer glitch that created multiple videos ( which tells you how much I know about computers) . If I wanted to censor I would not have left even one up. Of course now that Guru has explained it can overload a system I think it’s best to hit delete when too many videos are posted. We can always express ourselves with a exclamation mark or two !! Gretch
I don’t consider myself a hardware expert, and my info could be at least partially inaccurate. If I am on the right track, though, it would be the really long Youtube videos that would be the main culprits. Multiple 20-second Luke Skywalker clips may not be nearly as burdensome to a client system’s RAM as a 50-minute video of the “Boy Who Lived Before”. It’s possible that removing one of those two “Boy” videos Patrick posted would clean things up even more than the multiple short Star Wars clips..
Just….semi-educated guesswork. It wouldn’t mean much at all to modern PC’s with 16 GB RAM or more.
Thanks Guru, that ‘explains’ it I didn’t think Gretchen was a ‘censoring’ type but that’s pretty funny “If I wanted to censor I would not have left even one up” – what you must realize Gretchen it was all part of my ‘self expression’ lol at that particular moment in time
I am sorry it won’t easily happen again. The “boy who lived before” putting that on twice was purely an accident and maybe that gave me the idea that I ‘could’ do that. But again ‘sorry’ and there really SHOULD never be a reason to do that – but there I did it what else is new?
Just for the hell of it, I thought to go through U Souperstar G’s commnet with a few quotes. . .
Anywuz !!! where was I … Ah yeah!!!! “partially accurate” is that the same as beding partially pregnant?
“Multiple ……… clips” I thought those were what we used to keep sheets of loose paper togerther.
” …system RAM” I thought they were those animals with curly horns.
“Stars Wars” now there’s one right out of my stratasphere.
Worst of all “semi-educated” What school doesw one go to to get semi edificated????
and finally “gig”-a-bites. Isn’ that what musician do in night clubs. I know what “bites” are, cos they hurt
To get to Patrick; I find it a little bit weird that he gets so upsewt by being quoted. I am sure if Shakespear was still alive and had the same problem he would be up the wall, quite which wall I an mot sure. But anywuz, his referrence to Dr. Kruse on about Siesmology. I though there was a vaccine for that. but not sure what disease it is,
BUT me being a “Private Revelations man” I think it might be time for Gretch to ask Atty to clear it all up and just create Page 4 of Summer retreats and stasrt with a clean sheet. Yeah!!!! No!!!! ah well … I tried. Lofl or 😦 😦
PR man again
When your trailer is off it’s hinges and on fire you can remember I tried to warn you. And no – there will be no vaccine for that. It will just have to burn
When my trailer is off it’s binges; will I remember that you tried to warm me. Yeah!!! I will. That … I suspect, will be around the time that you get a wife. So I have quite some breathing time. Meantime, I too am eagerly awaiting for your response to Grethen question … which I suspect will be about the same time.
You are for ever, going on and on (or is it off and off) about Arthur Janov’s promises, but it seems you are the in the same ‘kettle calling the pot’ syndrome.
I get a lot of fun outta you and Souperstar. . You’re both hilarious. Bye the way that’s just another feeling.
by:- Do I need to remind you??? I thought not.
an Exerpt from an article in ” Beyond Meds”
Sent to me by a former PI Primal Therapist Trainee, now a Feelings based therapist.
Rejected Shadow Child
I am not worthy
I deserve nothing
I crave forgiveness
Please forgive me
But it will never be enough to redeem me
I am unredeemable
I am wrong
I am false
I am wicked
I am only concerned with myself
I cannot love
I am fear
I am rejection
I am pain and misery
I am your mother
I am your father
I am all of humanity
I am your soul
I am all that is
And all that ever was
I am
Hear me cry
(and now: The rejected shadow child Part II: Illuminate me
See also: If we were abandoned…)
David: Not sure what I make of this comment of yours. However, on my third reading of it I will ask two questions:- Only a trainee therapist?? Is it possible to tell us who that trainee is/was??
One observation I have noted from being associated with a medical man:- my Jimbo, I find there have been many ‘turn arrounds’ made by the medical profession. I can only suppose I was lucky with all the shots I got both as a child and later in life. Seemingly I never suffered from any of them and at close on 83 seem somewhat ok compared with the many I see when I have to turn up at the hospital for periodic check-ups. That is unless unless Patrick has one more diagnosis of me. Always a possibility.
As I view him he’s forever finding stuff written that seems to set his mind ablaze that he contends proves to him that all’s not well with whatever he’s upset with.
It’s just that I see the best use of this blog is to talk about what is going on with ourselves. Not that I am even close to always doing that myself. BUT … what the fuck. It’s something to occupy my fingers with whilst keeping out of this heat.
Jack
No, I am not going to out the Therapist. Suffice to say a post primal patient, with a Masters in Psychology who began training as a Primal Therapist, in Los Angeles, and then decided after professional self searching not to limit the therapy tool box to Primal Theory.
Oh, my reason for posting the Rejected Shadow Child verse ?? I found it interesting and moving and thought that primal patients would recognize it for what I thought it was, a description of, ” us, ” the survivors,” of abuse. It certainly brought up feelings of self disgust in me again.I also don’t like to take credit for something that does not originate from me. Sometimes there’s really nothing below the surface to be sussed out, analyzed, or rendered suspect.
Consummate romantic and optimist I am, the truce, which I erroneously mistook for growth, and complimented both corners, has expired and we’re back to school yard name calling. Likely my fault. I stopped watching Red Sox baseball because I was jinxing them.
>
> by the way, Patrik, you still did not answer Gretchen’s question, despite it being very simple..
>
> you mentioned once it is hard for you to talk about what you like, seemingly specially about what you like about being on the blog…
>
> M
Margaret – are you (and Gretchen) naive or just being ‘cute’. Do you REALLY think I can write about such a topic with ‘rat philosopher’ gnawing and excreting all over my bones in a manner of speaking. I will be ‘quoted back’ up the ying yang and found to be a ‘crooked thinker’ some one who does not OWN his feelings, he will go on and on AGAIN for the about 100th time about how I originally came on the blog (that’s how much he gets ‘over’ things). So stop being ‘cute’ and just look at the reality of things around here. “Oh Patrick why don’t you write about what you feel about this place?” Please please stop being either so naive or so disingenuous that’s the ‘reality’ and you (and Gretchen) knows it…………….
See Margaret that is one thing I like about this place, I can answer you even it is only to explain how I can’t answer you……………that’s not so easy to find and pretty much ‘addicting’ for me………..will ‘rat philosopher’ leave this one go I wonder………..like I said SOMEONE it’s not going to be me needs to kick the d…. out of his mouth
>
> we went with mom to the neurologist yesterday, and she will be taken in observation in the hospital for a few days next week.
> severe memory problems and a very sstrong kind of tinitus she developed the last weeks need to be looked at, and hopefully they might be able to find a cause for the tinitus they can treat. that is not at all sure, most cases are untreatable.
> she hears like a strong stormwind all the time, sometimes changing in an earwurmlike repetitive song and it interferes a lot with her ability to hear what people say, and drives her crazy as it never stops.
>
> she is gradually getting more used to the idea of eventually probably going to a nursing home, but it still would be a huge decision and hard to do.
>
> we found a nice one right on the corner of where she lives now, but as there are not enough places for our increased amount of elderly people, she needs to have certain forms of a neurologist assessing her capacities to a point where she needs enough assistance..
>
> we take things one step at a time, and are glad she agreed to the observation days, in which a lot of examinations hopefully can be bundled as we always have to assist her and coach her into going which would be a lot of repeated struggles if all examinations would be separate. mom often agrees, but the next moment forgets she did and starts all over to question and discuss every little detail, hearing so poorly we have to scream for her to hear it, when she listens, not always the case, to then get into a discussion, as she always discusses even when we agree with her, to then come to some agreement, to then her forgetting again, to then being back to square one where she wants to be informed etc…
>
> exhausting, I am really so glad me and my brother work very well as a team now to deal with all of it and to take care of our mom as well as possible in every way..
>
> to be continued..
>
> and I have my exam neuropsychology next tuesday…
>
> M
This must be so painful…. endless and painful…. on and on… so hard to cope with 😦
Hello, Margaret; I developed tinnitus following a rear end automobile collision causing me whiplash injuries. The ENT Specialist I saw was a youngish Scottish doc who had previously worked at a large US clinic. He explained to me that tinnitus was caused by head/brain trauma resulting in the normal inaudible white noise frequency of the brain to be destroyed. He said the brain begins searching for a replacement frequency and unfortunately it will be an audible frequency, thus the tinnitus noises. He mentioned that ischemic strokes are a major cause in elderly persons. Finally he said he always ordered a highly accurate blood analysis to ensure that tissues are receiving optimum nutrition, vitamins, co- factors, minerals, and enzymes. Because deficiencies cause tinnitus and is correctable. He recommended I take one tablespoon of hemp seed oil daily as it contained all Omega essential fatty acids in near perfect balance. That surprised me because generally MD’s do not usually know anything about nutrition. But, he did,in point of fact have a PHd in Medicine. He told me that MD is sort of an entry level of medical training.
In California the sky in not falling at least yet but the ground is sinking and fast is some places. Dr Kruse has predicted a massive earthquake related to this problem. As the ground water goes apparently it majorly ups the chances of a huge earthquake. I mean that has always been a possibility of course in California but according to him the depletion of the ground water is a ‘game changer’ and NOT in a good way. I guess I am putting out as a kind of PSA……………….now if only I can take my own advice and get the hell outa’ here………….the world is getting scary the 6th Extinction Event is going ‘extinct’ some things all right lots of things………….can you imagine a quake like that even in the Central Valley fuck up all the water aqueducts and so on. Welcome to the jungle……………
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/land-in-california-sinking_55d4caade4b055a6dab275fa?kvcommref=mostpopular
THe most respected scientists on climate change and polar ice cap melt state that most of Florida will belong to ” Aquarius,” by the end of the Century; Miami under water by 2050, the threat unable to be thwarted. Other coastal states, he said, meet the same fate, noting that Americans may become the new boat people in one way or another. Canada’s Prime Minister has gagged all gov’t scientists, and issued an order that they not disclose to any body the rate of the Polar Ice Cap melt. Non gov’t scientists here are met with campaigns to discredit and defame them.
Welcome to the Jungle – Guns n Roses were talking about a metaphorical jungle I have the feeling we might soon have a real one………………
> Patrick, well, in this case Jack sounds like just a (lame, sorry) excuse to me, with all due respect,and of course I might be wrong, just saying what crosses my mind..
> M
>
> ha, another interesting ‘Attenborough’ bit of new knowledge about our animal brothers, monkeys this time, Cappucine monkeys use lime, piper plant and chili pepper, and onions to rub thenmselves with as both insect repellant and insecticide, and antifungus and antibacterial remedies..
>
> interesting..
> animal medication..
> and when they do run into these plants they get all excited and make it a kind of social festivity to have a rubbing party..
>
> then another trick is to gently bite a centipede so it excretes a liquid that is also a strong insect repellant, rub it on of course, and at the same time the monkeys get high during that process…
>
> interesting once more…
> M
My vacation in Spain is soon coming to an end. It has been fun and relaxing except for myusual communication frustrations. I’d like to stay here for at least a few more weeksbut it’s back to reality on Monday. My inability to express myself well in Spanish isrelated I think to my old pattern of holding everything in. I don’t like showing howimmature my level of Spanish speaking is with people here, which makes it difficult to make advances.Well, there are a very few people who I feel comfortable with and can freely speak with numerousmistakes but they aren’t always around. I guess that the same thing applies to my primal journey; I have to show my true self andmy vulnerabilities to advance my healing.Phil
WordPress.com
Margaret commented: “> > ha, another interesting ‘Attenborough’ bit of new knowledge about our animal brothers, monkeys this time, Cappucine monkeys use lime, piper plant and chili pepper, and onions to rub thenmselves with as both insect repellant and insecticide, an”
Phil: Based on what you see around you, does Spain look as economically depressed as Miguel described it to be on the blog in the past?
UG, Yes Spain has been very economically depressed but I can’t see it. It’s by talking to people or watching the news that I know it. Phil Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:09:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hi Phil – Glad to hear about your trip! That it has been fun and relaxing sounds great esp. when I remember how trying other trips have been.
Interesting – how you are seeing your own pattern with the language barrier and think that is great to make the analogy and go forth. Also, so nice to balance out with the times you are comfortable to express yourself and learn with a freedom to make mistakes.
I taught English in Japan many years ago. My classes were only about trying to build the confidence in the students to try & to make mistakes with it not being the end of the world… Their intellectual command of English was unbelievable!
My Japanese – huh! thank god my employers didn’t want me to know it nor translate at all 🙂
Trying to learn Mi.kmaq (meeg mawhk) in fits and starts; terrified to try out words on speakers; though it’s ok with my two, ” mentors.” They laugh at me, but we laugh together..
Margaret, did you note the name of the type of centipede…. an improvement over, ” OFF,” repellent spray… hah
> I can’t believe what I read just now.
> are you threatening to put Jack’s trailer on fire Patrick???
> this is way off line, completely unacceptable, nuts, am short of words here..
> crazy and utterly out of proportion.
> M
Margaret – you need to pay a little closer attention, I was talking about some of the dire predictions for California of earthquakes up to strength 11 or 12.I don’t think such big earthquakes have ever been seen at least during recorded history. So as hard as this may be to believe by either you or him I was trying to be helpful. This may well happen here and for some reason I thought of Jack in his trailer well it does not take much imagination to think what might happen.
Jack of course dismissed all this and ‘jokes’ there may be a vaccine for it so I said to him when your trailer is on fire remember I tried to warn you. But obviously it is lost on him (everything is pretty much lost on him) but you seem to miss the point also. I did put on that song “Fire” which might seem a bit provocative but I dunno the words were strangely relevant to me………….of a person who has such ‘small’ concerns and how some huge fire might immolate them. Some of the words
You’ve been living like a little girl in the middle of your little world
And your mind, your tiny mind, you know you’ve really been so blind
Now ‘s your time burn your mind, you’re falling far too far behind
Fire, I’ll take you to burn
Fire, I’ll take you to learn
Anyway I was playing around with that song but it would be nice Margaret if you could drop this now and recognize were just mistaken. There is no need to spread this out over the next few days as I have seen you do. Maybe needing attention or a controversy………………….I do not need either one I plan to dissapear for a few days dueling with PR is fucking tiring and by definition I get nowhere. He makes sure it is that way PR man is very ‘static’ like that Primal people call if ‘defended’ I think
Quote: “I plan to dissapear for a few days ” Where???? Up the ying yang. That’d be nice. However, that will leave me lost and lonely until such times as you (will inevitably) come back. Then I can get back to more fun again.
Jack
USG,
Gotcha,,,,,,,I was just giving my reactions off the cuff. I thought you may be inferring too much into the snipper conclusions of these studies, but it seems you were not.
Anyway, I think this song addresses the topic well:
Donal
Donal: I don’t listen to nearly as much music as I did in the past, but I did enjoy your S&G clip, thank you!
Ultimate s. Guru,
snippet, not snipper. Really got to pay more attention to that interactive spellchecker.
I see my video only posted once: that’s good.
Donal
Jack,
Your comment regarding the PR man from 4:00AM or so…it seems you are saying I am a PR man and Janov is my ‘hero’, but that would not make sense?????
Anyway, I agree with your statistics comment: there are an infinite number of variables…..messes with your head to think how these studies can reach conclusions that are useful.
One study I read in whole a few years back concluded that people, on average, would only live 8 months longer on blood pressure medication that those with hypertension who forgoes the meds. It seemed very solid. Perhaps the lesson is one has to read the study itself and not just the conclusions. But how many people do that??
Donal
Donal – to clear this up I was the one saying Jack was a PR man and Janov was his ‘hero’…………….my grammar was probably a bit sloppy. This had nothing at all go do with you and sorry if as I say my grammar was a bit rough and ready About you I was alluding to the fact I had a similar take on Guru’s ‘statistics’ as you did.
Donal: It’s Patrick that designates me with “PR man”, and a host of other things, and so I willing take on his designations of me. I suspect that Patrick would love me to get defensive about his designations of who I am or, what I am not, and then get into an struggle with him about it. I don’t wish to go there, but I have found (by pure accident) what irks Patrick. An boy does that give me a thrill (al-be-it a perverted one).
I get the feeling that others on the blog or, just reading it, might love the ‘Jack and Pony’ show; but for their own good reasons stay clear of it. I have no problem with it and quite the contrary get “off” on it (as I feel is obvious). BUT, as I see it, Patrick and to a lesser degree OSG, can’t either find a way around it or, out of it.
If one thinks about it: it’s a form of defensiveness … the very essence of neurosis.
On the matter of being a great admirer of Arthur Janov I sure am, and have told him so; AND I have absolutely no shame about it.
One last point I omitted, in an earlier comment where I recited the “Lazy Dog Syndrome” I meant to add that I find that is a way in which I see, many people actually think and speak. They’ll equate anything with any other thing, however unrelated; to prove their point. That is one of the factors that Thouless writes about in his book “Straight and Cooked Thinking”. I see it as a very good example.
Jack
Nothing changes for me unless I make it possible to happen. That’s why this therapy is hard to do and few want to. This therapy puts the course of my life in my hands. I wonder am up to it. Then I think, I won’t give up on me like they did. It’s not my fault that they did. It’s not my fault that they made my life so hard for me. I don’t know what’s coming, but I won’t give up on me.
So good to hear Larry! I know this is coming from deep within you – in a genuine way.
A good,sturdy foundation that you are building on and adding to.
I have just been thru some horrendous feelings about my dad not wanting to be here.
He hasn’t been for years – and he died at 54 years old. For the first time I felt that awful death wish that I must have felt as a young child. All I can say is that I knew he didn’t want to be here – and as simple as that sounds it is a colossal horrid feeling. Even now, it hurts to know…
That would be impossible to let yourself know as a kid, Leslie. Too horrible to know then.
Thanks Larry. I appreciate your words and empathy here and always :).
It is incredible how this therapy works – unfolding layer upon layer… I, unlike Sylvia – who I admire for being able to do so – have really needed the consistent and expert care from Gretchen and Barry.
I started therapy ~34years ago! and am continuously grateful for what I have done and accomplished in my life because of it. Perhaps its similar to our great marriage of even longer !! 37 years – it is not like I slog away in a dungeon for it but yes there is work involved – what feels like hard work at times in fact.
However, the rewards are huge & unbelievable!! Full life, living and love.
It amazes me how in all these years I have never felt prodded nor pushed to go to these new feelings for me about my dad. Of course I knew, as anyone would that self destruction was his sad mandate when he had his 1st heart attack at 40 and 3 others til his death. But to now actually feel – even finding it hard to verbalize – the devastation of his path as a child is unreal and yet so real.
Donal – your description of how individual & potentially rewarding this therapy is – how
“it does put our lives into our control” is so good!
Hi Leslie
You and Barry have been an inspiration to me, ever since I met you two, 32 years ago.
Your relationship is with each other, in public, has always been examplory.
Tom
Thank you Tom. That is kind of you. We run the whole gamut of loving, laughing, fighting, struggling… and still choose each other.
ox L.
In the beginning I really wanted someone, therapist or buddy, to be there to bear witness to what I’d been through, what had been done to me. To bear witness and to finally be believed ?That has waned over the past 30 years. Did anyone else have that need ?? I considered it growth.
Reading Larry it crossed my mind that it might be about hiding my feelings of need, which I can still do. No one in the, ” (un) real world wants to know anyhow.
Hi David,
I found it and still relish that I don’t have to turn myself inside out * to be believed. It was astounding & so re-assuring to have my interpretation of life and events not only understood which was huge but actually supported – wow!
My need of that help for me go forth into the hell of what wasn’t there in my early years is still there.
Not judging that for me or you – just is.
Have you had more thoughts about this since you wrote?
* BTW the movie “Inside Out” is good to see – animated so you have to be in the mood but such a great, Primal message!
Larry: Great!!!! … don’t ever give up on you.
It will be tough, as I know from reading you, BUT keep at it. I know; you ARE doing it.
Jack
Thanks Jack. I need to hear the belief in me.
I can relate to that, Larry; and I survived them on my own at a more vulnerable period.
An aside, this new page is now as wonky loading and exiting as the previous one had become. It was really fast for a while. I’m running Windows 10. Anyone having a similar experience ??
I’ve never had any problems loading the page, whether using XP or now Windows 8.
Hi Larry
A week or so ago, I was ready to chuck it in.
What’s the point of living. Can’t do anything any more. Family is fine, kids are fine, grand kids are fine, friends are fine.
I am not fine. I wanted to die. There is/was nothing I could do to make myself ‘happy’. I work hard at everything, work, relationships, family, friends and my volunteering.
But there is nothing that I can think of that would make me feel ‘happy’.
Like I said before…………I’m doing life.
And then I was thinking how will I DO old age? With carers at the door? Or in a nursing home? Or what? Sounds pretty gloomy.
Then a few days later I had this epiphany, thanks to you. The answer is …..yes…..wait for it…..is to take care of myself. What an eye opener.
It made me angry first. What? Give up on being taken care of? Blasphemy!!!!!!
Does that mean I may be growing up? Even if a little only?
Will it make me happy to look after myself? Who knows. But I really don’t have a choice, other than killing myself.
And I’ve never been suicidal.
All this tossing and turning in primal therapy. Exhausting.
Somebody………….make it easier………….please.
Tom
Tom: Just keep asking, like you just did … AND the answer will come from the most surprising source.
Jack
I think your epiphany hit on something really important, Tom.
Patrick,
No problemo……I figured that was the case, but thought I would ask.
Donal
Larry,
Yes, this therapy does put our lives into our control: the rewards are potentially great, but we have to deal with the fall-out of what we did not get and build a life on the present.
I have no doubt you will persevere and continue to be successful.
Donal
It would be easier for me if I had as much faith in me as you seem to, Donal, but hearing from you helps.
> Fiona,
> it is mostly exhausting, frustrating, exasperating and causing a lot of stress at this point.
> but having my brother at my side helps enormously to be able to deal with it so far.
>
> Patrick, ha, that is a relief I missed the context of that image of the burning trailer.
> I admit I delete some comments halfway for lack of patience to keep reading them, and therefor might miss an occasional point made…
>
> and no, not only your comments, my patience and time is limited these days..
> too many misinterpretations and jumping to farfetched conclusions about what people imply etc. to my taste, little true communication, so well, thanks for clarifying.
> M
> my mom is driving me crazy..
> calling me repeatedly announcing she won’t go to the hospital then finally turning it into when and how and I should pack, she wiped the message off the big white board we hung up for her that her suitcase is packed already and already in my brother’s car..
>
> as she messed up the former white board by using a wrong pen, now she was gonna write down in her little notebook about the suitcase, but that soon got lost or she forgot about it one minute later or then lost her glasses etc., we went around in circles with her same questions over and over, I lost more and more of my patience with her endless discussions and questions, then she plays a guilt trip, ha, I hate it, I hate her at those moments!!!
>
> would want her to be in a nursing home, for my own sake, selfish as she can still be on her own with some assistance, but lord, she stresses me out big time and my brother too, our health gets affected bit by bit if this goes on for too long..
>
> soon we will have to put her before a clear choice, whether to acccept household help on top of the cleaning lady, or go to a nursing home.. (if we get the forms filled in properly that is, by the neurologist and the psychologist)
>
> we do all to help her but she makes it so damn hard to do so!!!
> I can feel how she makes my bloood pressure rise sky-high, and the stress invades me completely for a while, interfering with my own life..
>
> only yesterday evening she promised me to be more cooperative, apologised, was teary etc., today the phone goes again with her announcing bluntly again she won’t go to the hospital, aaaargh!!!!
>
> gives me a headache!!!
> her stubbornness and pigheadedness and always wanting things her way and always knowing better will get her much sooner in a nursing home than what would happen if she would simply accept advice and help..
>
> feel so frustrated, angry, sad,it hurts and pisses me off!
> M
> Leslie,
> did he end his life?
> M
> Leslie, sorry, the question about your dad was written and sent before I read some more about his heart attacks..
>
> it is so nice to hear you talk about your marriage!
>
> nowadays it is more or less exceptional to hear about long and happy relations, one would doubt they are possible if not knowing you and barry and then the other Barry and Gretche..
>
> my parents life seemed ok most of the time, my dad could still hug my mom and call her sweet nicknames in his last years, but then I found out she briefly cheated on him, my mom..
>
> she stopped the affair but then after he died it restarted and now he has been her ‘boyfriend for twenty years, despite being married himself..
>
> I hope my dad never knew, but I remember asking her once if she was in love with the guy as she behaved like a teenager whenever he would visit..
> she only told me years later they had something going for a little while then, but put a stop to it for feeling guilty towards my dad…
>
> it is hard to have all these second feelings coming up about my mom now that she is really getting old, so much of the old anger seems to be coming up at last..
>
> she triggers it by still being so bossy while needing to be looked after at the same time..
>
> willl be an intense week, her going to the hospital tomorrow, exam on tuesday for me, and then making my way over there to visit her, if she doesn’t manage to stop the hospitalization, she sure is capable of that!
>
> just finished my last rehearsal of the course of neuropsychology, an hour ago or so, still will look up just a few items if I find the time and peace of mind tomorrow..
>
> so good to have you all here on the blog, feels like a community..
> starting to rain again right now, the summer here is so variable this year, my cats still sneeze a bit, but they grow and are really developing muscle tissue now, strong little rascals, smiley, they are so very lovable!!
>
> one of them put a toy mouse on my pillow, smiley, my former cat used to put them in my slipppers during the night..
> M
> Phil, how is the return back home?
> David, no, sorry, you will have to gently bite the neck of the centipedes you meet, and rub them over your skin until you find the right species…
> and have some mosquitos at hand to check whether they are repelled or not..
> good luck!
> M
Supply of Mosquitos is the easy part Maggie.hah… Have you taken a break after your course success, or back at studying ??
> lord, mom has only been three hours in the clinic, and already called me about seven times, forgetting almost anything I say, sometimes not hearing me at all due to the tinitus, now she heard my advice at least to have a rest..
> with a few calls to the hospital. to arrange for the ear specialist as well to see her, to halfsister and attempts to boyfriend to spread the visits and with a visit from my brother after he left mom at the clinic, not much time left for a last look over before exam tomorrow morning..
>
> still managed to do some work, as it changes my mind from the high stress level towards brain functions and neurotransmitters and memorry and attention, ha!!
>
> exhausting to say the least..
> to be continued..
> M
> sorry for ventilating about this once more, but it is hard to deal with.
> my alfsister had passed by my mom and will go by tonight again, but she called me saying mom is angry at my brother and me for taking her money, while it is simply in a locker in the wardrobe next to her bed, and the nurse has the key as my mom loses everything and the nurse would give it to her if she needs to take out some money.
>
> on the other hand it seems good she has no money at hand, as she might venture to the cafetaria and lose her way..
>
> my halfsister thought she shooud be at the closed geriatric ward to be safe, thought the’d maybe move her after a while..
>
> it is sad and distressing..
> now of course she is much worse than in her daily routine, but on the other hand it seems useful she is looked at as the symptoms of what is already going on are mainly intensified right now.
>
> she will either to have to agree with more help at home, or have to go to a nursing home,and we need the proper forms for that second option, which will occurr sooner or later anyway..
>
> glad I already studied my course, but fear my concentration will not be optimal for my exam tomorrow morning…
>
> told her a while ago she needs to be an adult now as she is no child, and be patient, and it seemed to help for a while, but soon she goes back to her rebellious stubborn self again, complaining about everything, arch!!!
>
> we do need the support of professionals, for our own sake, as things gradually seem to get too much..
>
> stages a lot of people will have to face with a parent I guess, pretty painful and stressful…
> M
> David,
> first pass exam hopefully tomorrow, then order next courses, learn how to use new electronical device with namual of 163 pages while waiting for courses to arrive, then back to studying for next exams, only about 35 to go just for the bachelor’s,… this is number 7 coming up..
> M
my respect and envy… just reading what you are facing overwhelms me…… but once I get started I roll on. I hope you are keeping space for you.
hangin in there. thats it
Otto: That’s enough for now.
Take great care.
Jack
youtube. Watkins Glen Summer Jam 1973 Grateful Dead/ jesus. ugly filmmaking ugly people. are they jut ugly in new england? ugly colors ugly boobs. where is jerry? hey 1973 that was one of the worst years of my life. death on an unimaginable scale.
Grateful Dead 7-4-89 Rich Stadium Orchard Park NY . much much better. happy looking jerry. upbeat Bertha. upbeat crowd. song with a underscore of sadness, which always got me. today, no tears, too tired.
Wow. Actually got a big tear out. Z came home late and I was worried a little. Wanted to go to sleep. Bertha don’t you come around here anymore. Saw images in my head of the apartment I had on florida street in long beach when I was 25. Beautiful balcony. I was just coming out of a bad run, finally had a job printing photographs, still had hope that I was going to make great movies. I guess Bertha reminds me of z. we hooked up in that apartment, in my lonely lonely apartment. 39 miserable years later, it’s getting near the end. She wasn’t the whole cause of the misery, but surely some of it. I remember a picture of her when we were first together. We went to a stream down in orange county. I don’t know what about that picture makes me sad about her. Something about the shirt she was wearing. She seems so naïve and childlike to me. And bruised. There is a really really big feeling here, I don’t know why I had to get up and write this. There is a possibility that I will be able to come back to group soon, and that scares me. It also scares me more that with my luck, I wont be coming back. Beautiful bass line in Fire on the mountains. I just cant get it out of my head. I love it. Love is love and not fade away. My life is fading away.
Both going in the same direction on a two lane highway, passing a semi-trailer truck cab I saw on the back of the cab written in beautiful lettering: “I’m driving my life away.”
> most part of the exam neuropsychology seemed to go well, last couple of questions bit more hesitation, have to be patient now, ha!
> ordering new courses again a hassle, always hard to find recorded versions or pdf format, even finding out what’s available is hard, am working on ordering three new courses, next sets will be even harder as well, no blind seems to have gone there before me, at least not in the actual versions, so will have to find inspired solutions then…
>
> mom in clinic still often distressed, will go there in an hour, and tomorrow afternoon, have good contact with social services there, who monitor whether proper steps are being taken etc.
>
> feel tired and relieved at same time, exam seemingly well, big stressfactor less, good to face rest of stuff…
>
> glad girlfriend just texted she will come by tomorrow and give me ride to hospital, will be nice to have her around for a while, before she soon starts travelling again.
>
> kittens growing and sweet..
> M
Hi Margaret
What a daily struggle with your mum. You are a hero. She takes more out of you than everything else combined.
Parents………..
Good luck with your studies.
Tom
You are juggling a lot Margaret! I am glad other people are now able to assess your Mum for an extended time and take care of her while she is there.
So glad you have those kittens to love and cuddle & melt some frustrations away!!
ox L.
PS
Hi Margaret
There is a saying…..a mother can be there for ten kids, but ten kids cannot be there for a mother. You and your brother are positive proof that that is not a true saying.
Tom
> Tom,
> that sounds like a real breakthrough.
> go for it, take good care of yourself in every way you can think of, you deserve it!
>
> right now I feel confused about my mom in hospital..
> yesterday, visiting together with my half sister it looked like my mom had just had a stroke..
> she was hard to understand, mumbling, so we ended up warning the nurse, not a cooperative one, who even refused first to give any information about the examinations my mom had had that day, and then only gave a partial brief answer, saying a petscan was done instead of some days water,, maybe because of her state.
>
> in the room we heard of the other patients mom had also been checked about heart and lungs and bloodflow, I don’t get why the nurse coud not just say so..
> she insisted I had to make an appointment with the doctor for info..
>
> i felt very bad as it seemed coming to the hospital had caused so much stress or something she had ended up really bad, but still she kept talking, despite the mumbling, and did make some sense, so eventually I thought of asking her if her teeth were not loose, if she needed the teeth ‘glue’, and yes, we found it,put some on. opened the bottle on her table and gave her some water, and all of a sudden we cold hear much better what she was saying!!
>
> of cuorse that was still repetitive and frustrating, most of it, but at least the ‘stroke’ effect seemed mostly gone…
>
> despite her being a bit dizzy and certainly unable to find the way back up she kept insisting on accompanying us down to the entrance of the clinic, despite us saying no repeatedly and explaining to her why, and suddenly the stubborn and defiant way in which she kept saying, ‘no, I will come!’ got to me and I raised my voice telling her to behave normal,felt bad about it but it did seem to work as we kissed goodbye at ethe door of her room finally…
>
> tend to feel a bit bad, almost guilty about having made her go to the hospital, but on the other hand it was her constant complaining and insisting we help her that made us try it this way, hoping to do the best thing for her..
>
> also to get the proper forms for an eventual nursing home it is obligatory as she is physically not disabled enough and the nurses agreed with us it is not always a good thing to do to people, to force them to go through all of the tests, geting them out of their daily routine, but it is indeed the niw regulations forcing people to do it if ever they want a chance to be taken into a good nursing home..
>
> will go back this afternoon, and try to call for some appointment to find out more about the tests and results, but will have to make my way there on my own and that is scary too, as I will have to keep my mom from accompanying me as well etc.
>
> feel very tired and stressed about all of this..
> wish she would accept household help or enter in the home, it is a very nice one and she knows four people there from years back, a good start to make more friends there really..
>
> M
> thanks Leslie,
> it feels indeed good to have some others assessing the situation, and joining in for finding help and solutions to make the best of it.
>
> that nurse mentioned mom getting ‘serosept for her memory, have to look it up as it sounds more like some serotoninergic antidepressant or something.
>
> mom keeps accusing my brother of having taken her money away, despite us having told her at least 50 times her purse is in the safety locker in the room, the nurse provinding the key when asked, I have even put some money in her handbag to ease her mind, to no avail..
>
> on the other hand my halfsister said the day before she would have taken her money and key and left to go home, even in her nightgown if she had had the chance, so it seems a good thing anyway we did not leave it right next to her bed..
>
> it is so sad, hopefully something good comes out of it eventually, I still feel it is good she is thoroughly checked, specially for the noise in her ears that is driving her crazy, it would be wonderful if they could find a cause they can treat, like the ear infection or blood transit or whatever..
>
> M
> ha, what a relief! through the social service of the hospital finally got in touch with the head ‘nurse’ of the neurologic ward, a very nice man who gave me his direct number and brought me completely up to date about all the examinations, results and next planned tests, and medication.
> such a relief to have good information and also support, he was very empathetic about it being hard to take good care of a strongwilled elderly person, at home, or during the process of preparing a possible later move to a nursing home, or in a hospital.
> but he confirmed the importance of her being well checked out, and that felt very good.
> now gradually I get a good view of all that is going on, some things can be easily taken care of, like her left and good ear being clogged up and soon to be cleaned out, which will imporove her hearing a bit, despite the tinitus which might be hard to treat possibly.
>
> some arteries in her neck are half clogged, but no sign of recent strokes, and tomorrow an mri for more detailed images.
> he sounded so professional and trustworthy, very accessible and human at the same time, this makes a huge change to feeling connected and positive about what is going on.
>
> also my halfsister shortened her stay at a camping place so she will be more able to join me to visit her, also a relief!
> we need other people so much..
> M
> hurray, just got the unofficial notice I passed my exam!!
> and had a nice visit together with girlfriend to my mom, my girlfriend lost hers about two years ago, and is very nice and patient, it was good to be the three of us, had a nice time at the cafetaria despite having to repeat stuff over and over, mom did seem just a bit more relaxed which is good!
> so glad girlfriend came along, she will go for a couple of weeks to France again by the weekend, she is a very nice friend, honest and warm and with a great sense of humor.
> M
> had a very good talk with one of my mom’s doctors today.
> also about my worries about the medication, and about the situation at home etc., and what we expect .
> they will probably keep her till next week.
> they said she won’t be alllowed to drive anymore, which will be a huge struggle..
> I mentioned it casually, just to indicate maybe the doctors would bring it up, and she immediately responded ‘oh, but then I will simply say no way!!’, ha, I will let the doctors bring the message!!!
> but now after a long talk with the doctor I finally feel they have the necessary information, about the situation, about us, about what we want and feel, about her, and what we need, and are on the same wavelength..
>
> they should have contacted us really for the info if things were right, but anyway, now i feel more at ease about how things are dealt with, and I gave it some thought, and a low dose of that medication will probably be useful, and can be reevaluated after a while.
>
> mom certainly has had episods that can be referred to as psychosis, burying stuff in the ground, car keys, money etc.
> of course her story to the doctors had been she does everything by herself, cooking, shopping, washing, bank and paperwork, so it is good I adjusted that version smiley..
>
> so now it feels ok, mom seems to be adjusting a bit more as well.
> is pretty exhausting though, but the kittens welcomed me home and are a nice change of atmosphere..
>
> why is the blog so silent??
> have not recieved a mail today yet!?
> M
Congratulations Margaret on passing your exam! Even with all that was/is going on with your Mum – you did it!!
Hope you celebrate with kittens and friends!
ox L.
Margaret….well done for getting another exam under your belt..
It’s tough having a parent be so unwell, and I’m glad you have brotherly and kittenly support.
Missing my Primal Peeps today, hence I’m here, as there is no one local to reach out to.
Feel so low. In spite of tennis this morning. Cried missing my mum before tennis, and again this afternoon for my lost childhood. Nothing to be done, just get through it.
Thanks for being here, blog.
> Jo,
> thanks, smiley and purrpurr
> M and Pluche and Plukkie
Here for you Jo.
Those are huge losses to feel…
Please tell us more if you are wanting to.
ox L.
Thank you Leslie..that means a lot to me.. I’m pretty stuck, but will tell more if I can..bedtime now. xo
Margaret and Jo: I could do my part to fill the blog emptiness by telling you how utterly miserable and insignificant it makes me feel to do four loads of laundry on top of a load of bedsheets and towels, yet I have to do it anyway. Would that improve the blog situation any?
UG, I was referring to people I was with at the retreat and in LA…people who I interacted with in deep and fun ways, which I’m not getting too much of in my current situation.
I watched on PBS last night from 7:00 pm through 2:00am this morning; the last five hours was the “The Untold Story of the Civil War” that was the American civil war. It devastated me and yet I could not wait to see the next episode until I had seen the whole thing through. It was brillint television and remarkably honest on many levels.
My first hour of viewing was the building of Mount Rushmore. Just pure interest on my part. I normally go to bed at 8:00 or 9:00 in the evening and rise each day at 6:30 am. The civil war story deeply, deeply disturbed me for I saw in it, so much of my own countrymen; their hates and biases, and hence all that is ingrained within me. Much of this Patrick has been dilligent enough to remind me of quite recently. Patrick, over the time he has been on the blog, has said many scathing things about me. Most of true.
It’s almost like I am not sure where to begin to express the impact that whole five hours of my compulsive viewing. I am not sure if I have slept for the four and half hours since I went to bed last night or, wether I was just dreaming; and mulling over the total impact it had on me.
But; allow me to digress for a moment. I watch very little television these days other than the PBS Newshoiur each night, but I am very cognicent of some of the BBC shows that Jim (my partner) totally loves. The first is Downton Abbey which I hate with a passion and reminds me of all that is wrong with the English and British system. But as I see it those first English colonials that landed on these shores, brough most of that with them, albeit that they were for the most past the oppressed masses. We British have, to coin a phrase, “fucked-up” most of planet earth; by the shear necessity and greed to enforce our way onto the rest of the peoples or the world.
Now back to last night:- The lynchings and lashings that the slave master inflicted on their chatels: seared through my very viens and brough out in me at that moment, my very own ‘misplaced anger’ and I just wanted to take those doing the lashings, and give back to them that, that they had inflicted. I say “misplaced anger” because that was what it was. Had I been able to do so … it would have resolved NOTHING. However, I did see in their actions their own mommies and daddies doing something similar to them … and on and on ad infinitum. Just as it was done to me. That is why and how I came to know the ‘downright ugly’ about myself Then there was the insane bloodshed of the battles and the total madness of war. All war … wherever, and for what ever. I also saw and realized that the leaders of both sides were also equally to blame and in the end also resolved NOTHING. We (humans) are still fighting that war; and as I see it we will forever continue, because in the end it is ‘the misplaced anger’ within us all.
It does not have to be. Just as I see that the system we humans impose upon ourselves … does not have to be. BUT alas we are disconected from the very bases of our own birthright feeling-full selves. I am still devastated by that viewing, but by just in writing this, I begin to see some light at the end of my own tunnel. There may be more to come, and if it comes up, I will blog away right here. Meantime
Jack
Diligent?……………..I can do ‘diligent’ I suppose……………….but now I am working at being diligent as to what I get diligent about…………..I actually like what you write here but I do wonder if I was to say something similar wouldn’t it be found to be a ‘hobby horse’ some personal ‘head trip’ some species of not ‘owning’ a feeling or God forbid maybe ‘crooked thinking’…………..the biggest ‘sin’ of all as far as i can tell but I am sure I can commit even a bigger ‘sin’……………..oh well……………….
Don’t forget the Spaniards and Portuguese who settled in Central and South America. Lots of whites in Brazil, for example, practice their own brand of racism even sharper than America’s.
Cops kill people all the time in Brazil for minor infractions. They even assemble death squads specifically designed for such purposes. Even children are killed if they are troublesome enough. Tons of racial profiling. It’s a longstanding tradition of zero tolerance towards crime.
People in America have it easy in many respects compared to countries with higher Gini coefficients and lower human development indices,
>
> going to mom today with brother and his partner.
> she comes because she wants to see my kittens, but I am not so happy with her presence, my brother promised me to tell her to be gentle with our mom, will see…
>
>
> i am scared about what lays ahead when our mom goes back home..
>
> a nurse is supposed to come by daily as to make sure she takes her medication, and of course mom began protesting immediately she might have other things to do and not be home and then the nurse could put the pills in the mailbox, yeah, right…
>
>
> then when we promised her to try to make her come by early mornings, that seemed acceptable to mom more or less, but later on it occurred to me she might have to take pills twice a day, so then what???
>
> and then she needs to accept household care at least once a week, and worse of all, we have to tell her she can’t drive anymore, which wil cause a tremendous uproar…
>
> not sure whether to tell her now, so she can start adjusting, cause the doctors so far have not been eager enough to let her know yet..
> I don’t think it would be ideal to tell her right before she goes home, cause then we have it all on our plate at once!!
>
> I am a bit pissed with her boyfriend, I ask him for years not to let my mom drive up to his village, for meeting with him for a drink during the week.
> he always replied with that it is no problem for her, but now when I told him she won’t be allowed to drive, he replied oh it is no problem, I will simply go to her place and we can hang out there. it is only a ten minutes bicycle ride so he should have done that a long time ago already, as now my mom is fixed on needing the car to get to be with him, grrrrr!!
>
> the social worker tried to communicate with her yeterday with me there as well, about needing the extra household help on her return, and of course mom kept throwing up any objection she could think of.
> at a certain point it became clear to the social assistant this approach was not working, so she asked my mom’s attention, and repeated slowly and clearly mom would have to accept the help, or have to go to a nursing home.
>
> mom freaked out tha tat they could never force her to do that etc. for a while, and then became more reasonable about having someone over once a week to cook a few meals for her and do some shopping and other jobs was not the end of the world really…
>
> later on I talked quietly again about it and again there was the cycle of objections and when I assured her it was indeed possible she could be forced to move to a home if she would not allow the extra help, she seemed to get it somewhat and become more cooperative..
>
> for that moment anyway, as she wil struggle for as long as she can!!
>
> on other moments occasionally the idea of the home almost seems to appeal to her..
>
> i am so scared of what lays in front of us, the time between her, hopefully, moving into the home, and having hopefully a nice time there, and the being at her place and uncooperative or simply forgetful about what she needs to do and accept..
>
> not sure whether to simply make the car disappear, or to let it there and give the keys to her boyfriend so they can use it to go out together, although he has a car they seem to use hers often..
>
> I am inclined to pefer it gone but maybe the second option would be easier for her to accept?
>
> we might also use the argument of her not being insured anymore by the medical verdict, to make her adjust..
>
> feel so worn out..
>
> back home biggest part of struggle will fall on our shoulders again, and all the worrying and checking etc., I would really be so relieved if she would decide for the home at last, or if another fact would make it a clear and only option, that is nothing that would be too damaging, but well, this hanging between two fases is very hard in our situation..
>
> will have to go through it one step at a time.
>
> it takes a lot of effort to stay in touch with reality through all the emotions, it is very hard to take her car away from her, but as I told my brother, it is crazy to leave it if she is becoming a risk for herself and others, if it is simply because she feels she needs it to see her boyfriend, which is not true in reality, only his fault for having been opportunistic and lazy by leaving it up to her to commute too often..
>
> big sigh, sorry for going on so long about this, but I am glad with any little bit of feedback just for the feeling of support, writing this makes me suddenly teary..
> M
>
> where is everybody?
> I know my feeling is I am scared and wish there was someone to take care of me, and that won’t happen, but still it would be nice to have someone on the blog talk to me.
> Please talk to me, I am sad, I am scared, I am tired!
>
> yesterday when my brother and his partner were here before going to the hospital, she noticed part of my ceiling in teh living room had come loose, threatening to fall…
> probably caused by the upstairs neighbours who had just moved out their furniture, angruly so, after having been evicted for hardly ever paying their bills and rent..
>
> felt so overwhelmed by this extra and urgent problem on top of all the rest, that I thought the only thing to do was immediately contact my landlord, despite it being sunday, so I texted him.
> I told him it was probably easier and cheaper to fix now, than after it would have droped and hey, it must have worked, as ten minutes later he called and promised to send someone by to check probably tomorrow!
> normally he is very hard to get moving, so it feels good to have started to adress this.
>
> also asked my mom’boyfriend t tell her tonight she will have to stop driving, has to on doctor’s order.
> I asked him to tell her as he can reassure her main worry, that she won’t be able to meet with him..
> he said he can visit her easily instead of her driving over, ha, which is something I have been asking him for a long time to do without success…
>
> now he can take the first blow, as mom will freak out!
> still I think he is capable of ‘forgetting ‘ to bring up the issue..
>
> so much stuff to take care of, household help and nurse, probably twice a day to make sure mom takes her medication, and worst of all, making mom accept the help and care..
>
> have to contact household help service, nursing home to put her on other waiting list, and make an appointment with one of her doctors to have another talk to get updated etc.
>
> will visit her daily again next week, today one day off…
>
> have done my own household chores, and taken it easy otherwise, nice summer day, last one before temperature will drop tomorrow..
>
> best friend abroad again. actually only close local friend..
>
> no news from new courses and waiting for e-mail responses to finish ordering them before mentor goes away on holiday..
>
> afraid for time to come, mom at home, rebellious but also forgetful and bit confused, wish she’d enter the home soon so we can relax a bit…
>
> sad, lonely, scared, or did I already say so??
>
> still so far have done a good job at dealing with the situation, and will have to keep doing so as problems present themselves..
>
> gonna read some more, play with kittens, change sheets, gather trash and put it on street..
>
> one spark of light tomorrow, smiley, soap restarts after summer break, ha, is good, locally made and very recognizable, with lots of actual problems in storyline, and humor, and well played and catchy..
>
> hope new courses will get ordered soon, miss the positive activity of studying..
>
> so well, where is everyone?
> hello??
> M
Hi Margaret
I don’t know if it is any help to you, but I’ll try to describe what I went through with my mum and I hope that will help you handle your mum.
Her husband passed away, but even before that she started to get dementia, urinary tract infections (UTI), and didn’t take her medication in order, nor on time. She ended up twice in hospital. Both time as a result of the UTIs. It affected her memory even more and her ability to look after herself. Her infection was so bad that it was touch and go whether she would be operated on. The doctors asked my permission, as the operation could’ve had a fatal outcome.
As I was her legal guardian and executor of all her legal issues, the doctor and social worker approached me in the hospital, after her second time there, asking me about her life, her home and he ability to take care of herself.
They recommended that mum should go into a nursing home to be rehabilitated, and after a few weeks, a nurse and social worker would come out and interview her, in my presence.
Mum asked me”where am I going?”. I told her. She insisted that she wants to go home. I said she needs to get well first.
After the interview about three weeks later, an interview that my mum didn’t understand, the medical team recommended that she stay in high care, within the nursing home. I agreed.
I went to visit my mum every day, as she was around the corner from me. Every day she would ask me when can she go home. It was heart wrenching. after about a year, I told her that the day she is well enough to take care of herself, she can go home. That shut her up, as she knew that she is not capable of it any more.
Towards her end, she started to ask me again if she could go home. By that time she was very weak, at times incoherent and in spite of the good care, she still got the occasional UTIs.
She passed away two years after she entered the nursing home. It was time for her to go.
For me to agree with the doctors in the first instance to go ahead with her operation in the hospital was dramatic. I was making a life and death decision.
For me to make the decision to have her in the nursing home was equally difficult. I hated to be in a place where my mum’s life was constantly in my hands.
The reason I am sharing my history with you is that at times you have to make difficult decisions, both in the interest of your mum, and yours. Nobody, but nobody knows what you are going through. It is living hell.
At one time after a year with my mum in the nursing home, the head nurse suggested I take a two week vacation. I may have written about this before.
I couldn’t, I said. The the head nurse said for me to take a week off. I said I couldn’t. Then she said take a weekend off. I said I couldn’t. Then she said take a day off. Finally I said i will give it a go. So gradually I went visiting my mum every other day. It killed me. She was my little girl. I was hurting her. But it was the right thing to do.
I hope what i described above will help you. You are on a very difficult journey. My thoughts are with you.
Tom
Dear nobody. I am just writing this to vent, or to be a victim and crying for mommy to come save me, even though I know she won’t. I am not going to look for any replies to this, I just want to pretend that I am in group, and that I am finally able to get my share of the speaking time in group because my speech disorder (actually non-speech disorder) does not affect me anymore (in this pretend fantasy). I finally got a little money, I have back taxes to pay with it, and I live with myself and z, and we are both bad with money, and I think she is worse than me, but who knows, I do know that the money will disappear overnight, as it usually does. As I said, I want to pretend I am in group, and I am pretending that if anyone interrupts me with their own stupid shit that I have the fortitude to scream SHUT THE FUCK UP at them, and stomp off to the remaining small room and scream my guts out from the terror that I have been through in the past year. I can’t help anyone else or in any other way be a good group member, I barely have the energy to keep myself going. Why would I pretend that I am in group, when I could be going back to group, if I have a little money? Well, I am being advised that if I want to go back to a certain group, that I would have to do so somewhat reasonably consistent. Even though the really beloved members of this group are able to pop in and out whenever they want. Even though out-of-towners can come for a few groups during retreat time, with no questions asked. I don’t want any fucking strings attached to going to group; it is impossibly difficult to go to fucking group for me and be around people, even though some people are very supportive of me (but only to the extent that I do not push that support away). The only reply that I fantasized getting from my email query asking if it was okay if I come back to group was, “Yeah buddy, get your ass back in here as soon as you can, I will push 2 of my 20-year patients out of the way so you can sit comfortably in this ridiculously small room that we have as our new PI.” Yes, I know I am hallucinating about what was written to me and seeing stuff through old-feeling eyes. I know it is a major feeling about being the neglected kid compared to my cousins of the aunt who was my “mother” when she was still in High School, after my own mother died. I cannot phrase that better, I just want to get done with this writing done and over with. Anyways, Z just came in, her secret account credit card doesn’t work, and she needs more money for her camping trip with the kid; I have already thrown $400 into this trip, $400 that I wouldn’t have had if the extra money hadn’t come in,. so I let her have it; she really doesn’t understand any of my angst here, working 6 days a week, and lucky to get that small amount of overtime, overtime is going away, blah blah blah. Dog that had a long illness and that I allowed myself to get close to him, so that now that he is dead, I feel horrible all the time. Z says she needs $40 cash to go to the movies with her rich friend. Then after she gets back from the movies, she wants me to drive her to get groceries even though she will not be here to eat them. I got a cancerous cat in the bathroom who will probably have to be put to sleep this week and another fucking dog who is also probably cancerous and will need $300 of ultrasound this week to confirm it. Every Saturday Z and the kid take our only car and go out to eat, and buy overpriced snacks and come back hours later to rent insanely violent Samuel L. Jackson movies on cable, and turn up the fucking volume so high that my earplugs disintegrate while I am trying to sleep, then I have to drive the kid home at midnight. Sunday is my day off, but I have done nothing for myself for so long, that I don’t even try too much to do anything for myself anymore. It has been a million degrees in the fucking San Fernando valley forever, and will remain that way until December, and start being hot again in February. Wahhhhh wahhhh. I am sure I am acting out. What the fuck ever. I just really am having a shit time, and I want to pretend that my mommy is coming to save me. But she aint. So I will continue to overeat and watch the dwindling remaining episodes of House on Netflix and go to work tomorrow and have to deal with my asshole bosses and other people who I wish would just disappear, just have them go up into the Rapturd.
So many counter-currents happening in your life, Margaret. And in mine.
Sometimes I’m alone all day on a weekend, or the entire weekend, and I hate it. I feel awful, scared and anxious by the end of those days. So I work at how not to be alone.
Yesterday afternoon I joined my Singles Social group and played Texas Scramble 9-hole golf with them. It was fun. It’s the first time I’ve ever enjoyed golf. About 20 people from the group played. Afterward we went to dinner at a restaurant. Some from the social group who didn’t participate in the golf showed up for the dinner. I enjoyed all of it. My confidence in myself and my comfort and enjoyment with people seems to have move forward several steps since the retreat. The good feeling from socializing yesterday helps me feel a lot better and more hopeful about my life.
On the flip side, a watershed development with a friend could lead to a decline in the friendship. That’s never fun. We’ll have to see what understanding we come to and where it goes.
On a more serious downside, yesterday my brother-in-law collapsed while jogging, as if he had a heart attack. A passerby saw it happen, found him unconscious, called an ambulance and administered CPR until it arrived. My brother-in-law has been unconscious in hospital since. He is on a ventilator, and the doctors are considering cooling his core body temperature. We don’t yet know what is actually wrong with him. It doesn’t look good. I wish I was living in that City and province so that I could be of support to my sister. She is 3.5 years younger than me.
Barry’s dictum that the longer we live, the more likely we will suffer loss, is so true.
Larry,
So sorry to hear the shocking news of your brother-in-law! I hope you can get there to see your your sister and him soon. It must be hard to be far away.
ox L.
I second that, Larry. Well wishes for your brother-in-law. Hopefully he can buck the odds and pull out of this so your next visit with your sister won’t be an exceptionally sad one.
Margaret, I can’t believe the doctor plus social worker didn’t insist on definite permanent care for your mum…all that you describe that’s been going on over the months indicates it.. The boyfriend appears inept or something…. the struggle and exhaustion is going to continue for you… Why?? You deserve your own life.. sorry, if I seem out of turn, but it winds me up…
My father had some psychotic episodes after my mum died, and her dying coincided with his retirement.. Long story short he had an interim period of full board in a “bed and breakfast” as it was declared he couldn’t fend for himself..it worked for a while, then it was an easy step into residential care home. Of course I don’t know all you know, but it all sounds like a crazy struggle, and probably reminding me of my own conflict at the time…my brother was lives in Australia so no support back then.
Wow Larry, sorry about your brother in law and the implications for his family…
Great you feel you’ve progressed socially..
ADMIN: —– New Page please?!?
Not that I read often – but waiting just to open the page puts me into a feeling!!!
Larry,
> yes, the image of countercurrents has often crossed my mind as well about my actual life, well, past 20 years or so, like constantly swimming upstream with just the very rare momentary relief of a short break now and then..
> sorry about your brother in law, hope they find the real problem soon and can do something about it..
>
> things like that are always so shocking as they confront us with the fact things can get wrong from one moment to the next, sometimes irrepairably so..
> JO,
> thanks a lot for what you wrote.
> it does give me a feeling of support as to hear another perspective and also to hear some of what you had to go through..
>
> a crazy struggle seems like the right description..
>
> boyfriend told mom about car yesterday evening, and she says she was ready to throw the first doctor announcing that news to her out of the window..
>
> wil have to make an appointment with the doctor today so I can talk with her tomorrow and look at the options.
>
> boyfriend thought they might not release her to go home maybe..
>
> she would probably feel betrayed and forced into something without her consent, understandably so..
>
> I’d rather have her decide soon by herself to move to the home, but well, will have to wait and see and deal with how things develop and how she behaves..
>
> will call home nevertehless and tell them papers are being prepared to allow her in at some point.
>
> will also call household help and ask them to give it another try soon….
>
> then nurse, twice a day if possible, luckily that seems to be for free, to my surprise, great healthcare system we have here!!
>
> niece interested in mom’s car..
>
> guy hopefully coming by to look at ceiling, lord, head starts turning and I did not mention a bunch of other things I need to take care of..
>
> last night one of the kittens slipped into stairway seemingly right before I went to bed, and I must have slept like a log as only at three I noticed there was only one kitten on my bed, and started going around the place calling the other, to hear it meowing in the stairway, poor little thing!!
>
> picked it up to comfort it, big bushy tail, it wanted mostly to see its brother, but also purred at being comforted, and I served it a big extra meal etc…
>
> now asleep on back of bed, purring again when being petted, ha, feel bad about myself for this having happened..
>
> luckily house was quiet, no upstairs neighbours to distress kitten even more in stairway..
>
> glad I did get up to look for it!!
>
> its meow is still not very loud, shit, I should have heard it, should have checked…
>
> was very happy to be back in, racing around with his brother..
>
> thanks again Jo, for honestly giving me your response, it did help me..
> M
Margaret: For some reason I felt compelled to say, “Sorry for not keeping up with your latest goings-on in depth very well. I’ve had so many things on my mind lately I haven’t been able to emotionally stay in tune with you.”
It’s not that I don’t care, but rather I have so many thoughts appear in my head concerning a broad variety of pressing items that I try to follow up on. Too many things to doooooo….
I do hope you are able to have your mother peacefully settled down for an appreciable amount of time so you can relax.
Hi Margaret,
I really like what Jo and Tom have shared with you – & I know you do too. It must be so hard to make decisions that your Mom is against. However, when the Dr. says no driving her keys/car must not be accessible as it appears your mom’s desires can overtake the rational solutions. Your kindness and consideration shine thru again when you ponder that the car might be handy for your Mom’s boyfriend to drive when they are together. However, as you said he has a car. Hopefully your niece getting the car comes thru and puts that dilemma to rest.
Hard for everyone and must take so much time, patience and energy to keep on top of it all.
Thinking of you!
ox L.
ON GETTING OLD
When I was younger I used to think:- “Why don’t the old people just move out of the way and let us young people run the show?” Now I am one of those ‘old fogies’ and I am not sure that I want to get out of the way and let the younger ones take over. I am not quite sure why. There was a phrase that I have often heard:- “growing old gracefully”. I personally have not experienced that. There’s nothing ‘graceful’ about me getting older:- the hair is dropping out, though the hair on my head still refuses to go grey, but that’s not the case with my beard. The eyesight was never that great, but in my twenties I learned about contact lenses and got rid of those pieces of glass dangling on my face. That was great. Meantime in my early seventies the arteries began to “clog up” (Patrick’s diagnosis) and walking became limited to no more than half a mile before needed to rest. The hearing is beginning to decline, but again I did test out an expensive hearing aid and hated it … so I will do without all that and what I am not able to hear I will learn to live without. The ticker does from time to time give a slight chest pain, but so far the cardiologists thinks that’s ok for now, but I take one pill once a day for it.
The memory is not quite as acute as it used to be and sometimes I struggle for maybe up to an hour trying to think of a person or place name, until … mostly get it. The wrinkles, about and the bottom especially, has become droopy which I hate, but since these days I don’t have that great desire to run around naked, I can for the most part hide it. And lastly the belly is still not bulging which pleaseth me, but I put that down to my Alexander technique I got into in my twenties. The only other factor is the energy level, but since I am long retired, does not bother me unduly, but this current heat wave in California is energy draining.
I see life being about laughing, crying, being angry, feeling terror, dancing, singing, chatting and communicating with others. There are some others of lesser importance to me, like writing and reading blogs. However, that sums it up for me, and hope that my body does not totally fall apart, and my brain does not go into undue crazy mode: assuming it already hasn’t
I refer to the above as:- “the bits dropping off” and I do not like it, but there is little (not from the want of trying) to prevent it, other than what I am doing with my therapy. I do feel that the brain is still in relative full function mode and hope it continues till the moment I drop dead. But who knows. I also feel very lucky that I still have a relationship of 35 years with someone that cares greatly for me as I do for him. We laugh a lot and joke with one another even though from time to time he upsets me as apparently I do him. As I see it from this moment, I love life and I have had a great life should I “pop my clogs” tomorrow, albeit that I did indulge in a very severe act-out:- sex addiction, which left me with HIV. But rather that one; than some of the alternatives act-outs that I am aware of. My one hope is to not to become bitter, resentful and/or regretful. So far so good.
Why am I writing all this on this blog is for no better reason than when I began to get into my senior years I did wish that there was some writings from others going through those end of life experiences. I was never able to find any. So!!! like most, I just have to face it as it occurs, and hope for the best. I hope my recounting my experience offers some awareness to others … but in the end this is MY experience and no-one else’.
Jack
Thanks Jack – sounds like you are in a good place – leading the way with a healthy balance of reality and genuine living each day. It is great to hear all that Primal has given you, not just here but throughout your posts. So many people never get to experiencing their feelings and that wonderful/(horrible at the time world) of release & revival.
Wishing you continued good health and love!
L.
Hey! Leslie: that was so good to read and assured me, after some doubts, that it was ok to express myself about these ‘getting older moments’, least-way with one person. I do feel that most of us from time to time look inwards and wonder if …… But the words that stick in my mind the most, are those that Viviain would often utter at retreats:- “Take a risk”. I will forever do just that … of course, at the risk of making an utter fool of myself.
Just saying the above put me into a feeling when my father, after my mother had spent all day getting us ready for the annual Christmas party at my fathers work place, and he, my father, I assumed, did not want to go, and so just said to my mother:- “Look at them” (all four of us that was). I remember feeling so awful and so inferior and so stupid.
Then my mother replied “Gilbert … I have just spent all day getting them ready” My father paused then said, “Alright … let’s go” and we kids just cheered; like only kids can. We looked forward to that Christmas party each year … weeks in advance. BUT it did leave a scar.
So thanks Leslie, both for the acknowlegment and for the feeling it brought up.
Jack
I hate watering these fucking plants. Corn, squash, tomato. They all look about as healthy as me—not healthy. Like I said, I am only going to use this blog to express my thoughts, probably not going to interact with others, even if it was the smartest thing I could ever do. Anyway, I hate trying to cut the hair off the maltese’s butt so he doesn’t get shit caught in it. He wont help out and stay still and so I nicked him. Tomorrow morning I call out sick so I can go have the lump in his throat ultrasounded. Z and kid have gone camping, and I feel lonely, even though I rarely want to be around them anyway. Sick cat in the bathroom, most likely cancer, but I cling to the belief that she has a fungus, so I give her antifungal medicine. I hate giving her medicine, she is a pain in the ass about it. I also hate going to work. I might have done something wrong the past 2 weeks in inventorying computers at work. I was probably not diligent enough. I was supposed to be in charge of 8 computer techs who went around the hospital on a Saturday, scanning every piece of computer equipment in the main hospital. I hate being in charge. I was in charge for many years, and I am lousy at it. They all wanted overtime, so we all went in on a Saturday to do the scans. Long story short because it doesn’t really matter. I suppose if I wanted to write a book or movie, it would or could be made to be interesting and funny. You know, how they came up with a procedure to do the scanning when Small Boss led them around to scan Thursday and Friday night. How Small Boss tells us he loves us in the daily meeting WHICH BORES ME TO TEARS EVERY MORNING AND SAPS MY MOMENTUM. Or how he has tattoos on his arms since he was in the military and sometimes his voice starts sounding like Popeye. Or how the newly-hired ex-marine who cant stop talking about girls was the one with the key opening offices so we could scan the pc’s, and probably missed some of the offices while TALKING TALKING TALKING. Or the other 7 guys were bumping into each other while they went into the offices with their scan guns a-flashing. Or how maybe someone (ME?) did not tell them how to use the scan guns correctly (come on, they are highly-paid computer technicians, they would ask if they didn’t know how, right? NO, EVERYONE IN OUR GROUP IS AFRAID TO ASK BECAUSE THEY DON’T WANT TO LOOK STUPID! Or about the black guy that was always happy to see me has finally gotten a new job so he won’t have to travel 100 miles to work every day. But the job is in Texas, and he was kidding another black guy today about the way they treat blacks in Texas. Or the Chilean guy who I thought I hated because he was aligned with the bosses, but I found out he was either kicked out of the inner circle or never was in it. But I still call him Perro under my breath, because I have been trying to master the trilled Spanish R since 6th grade and because it is similar to his name and it gives me 2 milliseconds of joy every day. But I just don’t care anymore. Long story short, I run some reports about how the inventory looks today, with my menial brainpower left at age 63 and also undiagnosed dyslexia. There will be an inspection team coming in 8 days to sample and see if all the computers are where they are supposed to be. The government could probably save millions if they put radio chips on the pc’s, and they were tracked real-time, but then people would get laid off. I am only telling you this part of the story in this order, because I will forget to tell you that part. Never mind, I don’t understand either. Now I forgot what I was going to tell you before this. Too much acid and pot years ago, or alzheimers starting up. Anyway the bosses came to me as I was ready to come home early to watch the 2 dogs and 2 cats while Z is camping. Watch the dogs and cats because the house is old and the a/c kicks the electricity off sometimes and also sometimes in heat like this, the whole neighborhood electricity goes down. So I could make sure the animals don’t get fried. But anyway, the big boss struggled with his words to be politically correct because he is an asshole who does not know how to be politically correct. (I actually feel some empathy for him, but nevertheless, he can go fuck himself) He could not understand why, if we scanned the entire hospital, that the report said there were computers that were NOT scanned during the days when we went scanning last week. These 1000 computers show in the database as having been scanned months ago, and if they had been scanned the past weekend, and uploaded to the database, then last Saturday’s scan date would be on their record. So I had emailed the boss earlier today with the report, and noted that either the pc’s had either been moved elsewhere and not scanned at the new location, or that somehow we had not scanned them on that Saturday, or that the scan data had not uploaded properly. Whatever, he and smaller boss went out the door, and I heard him say, well I am not going to be the one to take the hit this time. Which means what? Who knows, stokes my paranoia. What kind of hit had he gotten during the last inspection? He wanted to be boss so bad, go fuckyourself bitch. He waited to the last minute to start the scanning process anyways. Now he wants to know how to produce these reports so he can do them himself. The crazy legacy database system that we use, written by some ugly doctors in New England decades ago, and which should have been retired decades ago, that database requires tricks and kicks to get the info out. Sure buddy, I will be glad to waste my time showing you every detail, you micromanaging son of a bitch. Anyway, work is fine. It’s just that I mumble to myself all day long “I HATE BEING HERE!” 30 years is just enough now. Ok even though it is cooler today, at 5:30pm it is still too hot to go drive the rental car to the park to walk the dogs. Z wanted to take our car camping, so once again I get the dregs. No satellite radio, even though satellite barely has anything on it that I want to hear anymore. Wow, I feel so much better now that I put this to paper! I might be able to go through that box of bills that has been sitting on my desk for months! Or call my brother, or Son #2! Nah, just kidding. I will go buy steak and pizza since I wont have to hide what I am eating since Z is away. I am SO FUCKING DEPRESSED at this stage of my life. And there is NO WAY OUT OF IT! Or actually there is a way out, but most life on this planet actively scurries away from that exit plan.
I hope you don’t consider that exit plan, Otto. Just keep writing things out here, OK?
Otto,Besides just putting your thoughts here on the blog I hope you try otherthings. Talking with a buddy about all this same stuff might give you betterchance of connecting with feelings. Also, because I’m understanding you’reshort of money for therapy and that’s help you can get for free. Your life sounds really difficult, I hope you can get some relief.Phil
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 00:54:42 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> yesterday brought up news about driving prohibition with mom, doctors had told her already but she had forgotten, and I wanted it to be well adressed while she is still there, as she goes back home on thursday..
>
> big turmoil, so I took the heat, at some point just put my arms around her and gently rocked and eased her, and she started crying, and a bit later she became angry again, etc..
>
> very hard, exhausting, distressing.
> my halfsister was there as well and at some point told my mom she should not accuse her kids of being responsible, as she hurt us, while we do everything to help her, and she added she felt my mom was being selfish about that.
> the nurse also intervened and told my mom very kindly that all I and my sister had been saying to her was because we loved her so much and really cared.
>
> it was hard, but felt like a necessary stage, better to adress while she is still there and surrounded, as we will take her car away before she gets home to avoid her simply using it,as she would certainly do.
>
> I worry about the period before she goes to a home, but at least the grounds are getting prepared for when it becomes unavoidable..
> M
> dear Tom,
> thanks so much for sharing your story.
> it does help, makes me feel I am not alone in this.
> we have to make a very hard decision right now, we already told our mom she cannot drive anymore, but we plan to move her car away before she gets home, as she said she would still drive it even without insurance or a driver’s license ef necessary..
>
> if we leave the car and just take her keys, she will certainly try to order a new set, and give us hell about giving her the keys back with incessnt phone calls and endless arguing..
>
> so it feels kind of mean and cruel, but to save ourselves and her that long and pointless struggle we all tend to think it is better to just remove the car altogether…
> then she will be mad, but it might be for a shorter time than the endless arguing and discussing which wears us all out and really hurts..
>
> she is not reasonable in these matters, just wants things her way, and this seems the clearest way to get the notion acrosss she will not be allowed to drive again, period, as otherwise she will not give up struggling..
>
> a hard thing to do, and we cannot be certain it is the best option, instead of leaving the car there and just removing the keys for example to start with..
>
> as you say, we need to think of ourselves as well, and our own health risks to be affected if this goes on for too long,as there is also the struggle about the nurse and the household help etc.
>
> I brought it up with her yesterday at the clinic, and today the doctors will also adress the driving issue with her in a clear way, so she has some time to start adjusting already..
>
> as she is so set to get it her way, it feels like it is the only option really to just put her before a fact and keep it as short as possible..
>
> she even threatened to kill herself, but backed down when i asked her what she just said and muttered she did not really mean it..
>
> a bit of emotional blackmail mixed in with real distress..
>
> held her and rocked her and told her she could cope, that it was not the end of the world and let her cry..
>
> but it is hard to be confronted over and over with her being stubborn and unreasonable, like’ nobody tells me what to do, I will do it my way anyway, you must be the ones having set this all up to start with, etc. etc.’
>
> she has to learn to accept advice and help, and she can, but with us, her children, it is very hard to do..
>
> that is another reason why she might be better off eventually in a good nursing home, well surrounded and with pleasant company, as she does like people and feels bad for being alone too often..
>
> sad and difficult, so I admire what you managed to go through with your mom Tom, it is indeed very very hard..
> M
> Leslie,
> yes, I start noticing it gets really hard to find the time and energy to deal with my own stuff, feel worn out when I come home..
> wonder how things will evolve when she gets home/
> my brother agrees the car must go, definitely, but he seems to be ready to take over more care again when she refuses the household help.
> told him he will have to draw a line somewhere when necessary.
>
> on the other hand takes a bit of the pressure of me, to know he is prepared to do so and I don’t need to make sure at all cost she accepts the extra help.
> if that is what he wants, well ok, I will just go with the flow and we will see how things work out..
> M
> Otto,
> if that poor cat has no fungus it is cruel to force the fungus medication onto her!
> get a hold of yourself at least towards your animals and do what is right for them, in this case, as you do your best mostly seemingly.
> M
> Otto, sorry, I did not continue reading your post until the mentioning of considering an exit plan, but still, I do not see why you’d keep giving medication to that cat that has no use.
> please take care, of them and of yourself
> a clear ray of light in all the struggle, just got my results from the exam of neuropsychology had a 9, hurray hurray hurray, really cheers me up, feel very good about that!
> M
Hi Margaret,
I am so glad you have your own other life throughout this ordeal with your Mom. I am on the sidelines cheering you on and again sending you congrats for your exam so well done!
You seem to be doing all the right things with/for your Mom – allowing her to cry and be sad and giving her ‘a heads up’ about what is coming.
It sounds absolutely exhausting – both being there for your mom, and confronting all the decisions and plans for her life.
Hope you can separate that what she has to go through is not about you – to not take it personally as best you can.
A good nursing home can provide lots of positive things. I do not see it as such a negative thing as so many do. Yes, some loss of privacy etc. but I have seen a few cases here where although the elder did not want to go they soon enjoyed the social interactions and 24 hour care they received.
Take good care of yourself and your kitties!
ox L.
>
> had an intense but constructive afternoon with mom and halfsister at hospital.
>
> was able to kindly tell mom again in a simple and very direct way that tomorrow when she goes home her car won’t be there anymore.
> at some point she started crying deeply and intensely, telling us not to talk to her at that moment, and she cried about how hard it is to accept it and deal with it.
> she cried for the right reason and worded it, I held my hand on her shoulder and afterwards told her how proud I am of her, and my halfsister did as well.
>
> mom worded she will accept it but that it is hard, then also wanted to hear it from doctor, so we went there with her, and there too at some point she said she would accept it, for her children mostly, but of course on other moments started arguing again as well.
>
> it is almost certain she will forget again all of this, but emotionally she has breached a wall of defense, and I am indeed proud of her.
>
> she sounded very more lighthearted and relieved afterwards, and even talked about moving to the home as well but well, that will wear off again too.
>
> she did want to go there again for a look, and iI told her I’d like to go to to see those old folks I know since childhood as welll, so she was eager to go together for a visit there.
>
> so well, tomorrow will still be very hard when she gets home and her car is not there, but an important step seems to be made today in the process of accepting.
>
> I am proud of her, really, and of her capacity to feel when necessary.
>
> later on she also mentioned how important it is to go through life lightheartedly. special little person, my mom.. makes me teary to write this..
Margaret,I have been following along and am so impressed with how you havebeen taking care of your mother even though she can be stubborn, difficultand forgetful. Also, congratulations on your test results!Phil Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:25:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I’ve been back from my vacation in Spain and my family is all back nowtoo. I had some days alone before I left and when I came back and hada really terrible time. This is nothing new, it’s something I’ve often experienced.I get triggered Into a load of bad feelings of abandonment and a bunch of other stuff.Being alone that way can feel like being punished. That’s what my mother didto me. I got spanked and left alone in a bedroom. Or at other times just leftalone and neglected. Also, my mother just totally shut me out, as far as I canremember, and didn’t give me anything. She and my father messed me up big time. When I’m on my own in the present I can still function and go to work, it’s free time which can be triggering. I can connect with old scenes and get some relief that way but it isn’t quite enough because when I’m done the situation still exists and the feelings return too soon. Phil
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:25:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I’m glad you write about it Phil…
“Sometimes the truth is, there’s nothing anyone can do”. Deep. Taub in next to last House episode. How it make me feel? smallllllll…..
Ooooh, it’s a real tear-jerker….Dr. Wilson saved many lives over the years.
I heard something to-day I thought was a bit funny/interesting. This black woman was saying when Martin Luther King Jnr went to the US Capitol he did NOT say “I have an issue” but he DID say “i have a dream”
Quote: “I heard something to-day I thought was a bit funny/interesting”.
On a day when many news organizations around the world are reporting fleeing refugees from their homes; many women with their children and babies … now stuck in central Europe and not able to move on.
Then a viral picture of a Syrian 3 year old boy’s body in a red tee shirt, washed up on a Turkish shore
It saddens me deeply
For someone concerned with the worlds troubles … this day you seem merely amused about a now famous saying of Martin Luther King Jr.
Jack
So now I am doing ‘wrong’ by NOT talking about the world’s troubles……………….I wonder what your ‘old feeling’ is to drive you to such nonsense……………I am well aware of what has been done to Syria and Libya and Iraq and have no real reason to repeat it here………………as also it is always dismissed as some kind of ‘acting out’ by you and not only you………………and if I remember at the time you thought the bombing of Libya and earlier Yugoslavia was a fine idea……………..so a bit like your ‘guru’ Janov you are pretty clueless politically………………….Janov might still wonder why the Arab world is full of ‘hate’ and speculate as to their deep deep first line pains but I see him say nothing about for example the little Syrian boy just washed up on a beach somewhere…………better to ruminate about the past and watch movies about slavery and of course the holocaust at all time the holocaust but as for as the total destruction of countries not so much……………….though you seem to have suddenly woken up jack-off or jerk-off whatever the name you go by………….
You seem so intent on chatting about things … and rarely if ever about YOUR feelings … though they show through loud and clear.
Jack
Hello, Patrick; I composed a paragraph that I was very proud to write, and as so often happens when I write something politically inflammatory the gremlins swept in as I hit post and wiped it away. It was both emotional and factual and I don’t feel the energy to try to reconstruct it.
I opened by saying, ” I canna see the look on your face but I doubt it’s one of surprise, ” when you wrote the comment to which , in part, I am replying.
Syrians have been murdered, over 300,000, disabled, 1.3 million, and dispossessed of a homeland and fleeing, 12 million. This has been going on for 5 years. The greatest humanitarian crisis since Nazi Germany. And to our esteemed historical glory, our Countries also turned Shiploads of Jewish refugees back to the open seas. Today we’d just say, ” Hitler, smitler, a tempist in a teapot,” and go back to texting, tweeting; a continent of twits. TRUMP for PRESIDENTE…And our cowardly governments have sat on their hands. We created and armed, first deliberately, then accidentally,( maybe,) ISIS/ISIL. And instead of eliminating this nuisance we merely piss them off swinging our fly swatters at them from a cowardly anesthetized distance. They are the optimal political diversion of convenience. Russia is making noises of sending troops to assist al Asaad. It’s all WWF or NHL script writing.
Bashir al Asaad conducted Syria’s Extreme Torture facilities for George W Bush’s ,” Coalition of the Willing,” of which Canada was a willing partner, in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. One Canadian citizen, Mahir Arar, free only because his educated physician wife mobilized a country of furious citizens, while our gov’t did nothing to protect him, was paid millions of dollars in a human rights settlement. Our gov’t / RCMP delivered Mahir to and provided erroneous to the CIA who transported him to Syria for extreme torture.
The dead 3year old Syrian baby boy was refused entry into Canada with his family, even though they had family here willing and capable to be their total sponsor. An NDP MP hand delivered their application to the Canadian Minister of Immigration, Chris Alexander, a, ” Chuckie,” clone to the Prime Minister, on the floor of the House of Commons over a year ago and has yet to receive a reply. We have a gov’t that lies shamelessly, and with impunity. We live in a Country that the UN has declared commits Human Rights Violations against Canadians.
To date Canada has resettled 803 Syrian refugees. Germany is accepting another 800,000, this year.
The genocide of Arab Peoples in the Middle East closely approximates the recipe for the extermination of over 100 million First Peoples / Indians, of Turtle Island which the European savages renamed North America. The average age of Arab men in the slaughtered areas, Iran, Iraq, Palestine is quoted as 37 years. Their counsel of elders has been obliterated. They will be resettled all over the globe, and lose language, culture, and ethnic solidarity. That is the goal and hope of the descendents of the Inquisitors, us..
We are a shameful culture of bullies, pillagers of the natural resources of unaware countries that allow us to come in to do business; much in the style of our rape of Iran, Cuba, the list is long.
I box of French Bonbons will be sent to every reader….
Today they removed the respirator. After my brother-in-law collapsed from a heart attack last week, it was at least 15 minutes before they got his heart going again. He’s been in ICU in a vegetative state since, and on a respirator. Most of the time he’s been breathing on his own. The decision has been made to remove life support and whatever will be, will be.
He is about 60 years old. Still in their teens, my sister was the first in my family to get married. Theirs were my parents’ first grandchildren. For over 40 years with my sister he was at all of our major family gatherings, a fixture in my life. He was a tense, fidgety, argumentative, cynical person, tolerable and amiable enough, not someone I sought out for company but I’m sad and surprised how deeply I cried that his time has almost run out and soon he will be gone for all of time and never really had a fair chance at being content with life.
I’m sad and cried too how much I lost as I get older. Those family gatherings, with Noreen, now cherished memories are gone forever, along with my youth. More and more as I get older, the hallmarks of my life disappear and I’m left more and more on my own, alone to make my future. I cry and go back to being a baby abandoned and afraid and alone, and baby cry the need that now I finally accept will never be met and know that for all of my life I will have to find my way without the parental love that I needed.
My sister is getting a lot of support from a lot of people and coping OK at the moment. Nevertheless tomorrow I will drive to Winnipeg to be with her and family.
I wish she didn’t have to go through what i went through. I wish she didn’t have to suffer loss. I expect that after everyone has returned to their lives leaving her to hers, that she will start to experience just how much her life will never be the same again without her hubby.
The inevitability of loss, of limited time running out, impresses on me that I only have this one stab at life. There is no master planner with a ledger listing me as deserving a second chance because my parents were incapable of parenting. There is just Nature, just those who can find a way to, surviving, and those who can’t just falling by the wayside. Mercy and justice are artifacts of human culture. Nature shows none when your heart stops for 15 minutes and then starts beating again perfectly fine, everything is perfectly fine except the bits of brain that died from lack of oxygen in those few minutes that can’t be undone and so you can never go back again to how it was just moments before, and after 60 years it’s time to accept that I can never go back and help the baby that I was to get what I needed and repair the loss that starved the rest of my life.
Larry,That’s very sad and terrible what happened to your bother in-law.Phil
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 04:34:58 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Larry: I find this post of your so tragic and so touching. I wish you all the best for the future and retirement.
Jack
Larry: I find this post of your so tragic and so touching. I wish you all the best for you, your family and your future retirement.
Jack
one day after feeling, I apologized to baby me, small boy me, for the horrid abuses done to us, told them they were a beautiful part of me and I wanted them to stay forever, but that I , adult me, had to take over the decision making , that they did not have enough experience to run our life. That hurt as much as waking up the first morning, of many mornings, after my 4 year old daughter died. Accepting that that damage could never be undone. How much did it resolve anything long term, I don’t know for certain. It seems I recognize more and more the old hurts that get turned up by daily living.
David – I like that “more and more the old hurts that get turned up by daily living”…………to me that is the kind of right path for primal not so much buddying, sessions and “repeats” of all kinds……………..
Thank you Patrick. Apparently I write in aforeighn language that is only known to you and I.
Larry, It is too much shock and sadness that you and you family are having to endure! How tragic for both you and your sister and your spouses to go thru such horrors.
I’m sure your love, wisdom,comfort and understanding are and will be such support for your sister.
ox L.
So sad for you and your family Larry….keep us posted…
> mom is back home..
>
> spent the whole morning on the phone, after having called the hospital that morning to check whether they had removed the clog in her ear they had detected the second day of her stay there.
>
> despite they gave her eardrops to soften it they had omitted to remove it, so it was good I called, but to my disbelief the head nurse, a guy that had been friendly so far, was short and disinterested, telling me she should go to an ear specialist to remove it at home, or to her local physician, as they had a lot to do that morning and little time..
>
> I protested of course, and finally he promised halfheartedly to try and get it done, but he could not promise…
>
> after the call I started feeling more and more pissed off and frustrated, so after a while I tried to call the ward there for nose, ear and throat treatments, but in vain, the receptionist put me through to the wrong phone, and then they kept putting me through several times to end up on a phone that kept rining without being answered.
>
> then I tried calling their social service, but the lady I knew was in a meeting.
>
> then I pondered calling mom’s home doctor, but that did not feel like it would be very useful..
>
> I got more upset with this unbelievable fact of my mom entering a clinic with her biggest complaint hearing problems, they detect rightaway a clog, and 11 days later they are ready to send her home and force her and us to get to a doctor there to remove it!!!
>
> so I gave it a try again and called the hospital, insisting to be put through to the right number this time, and finally got hold of someone in charge.
>
> still reluctant at first as well, asking but how many days have those drops been given, my answer about nine days, she disbelieving, doubting me, finally asking mom’s name, then saying, well no, only since august 25, which actually was what I said, so again I explained it was not acceptable to send her home without this being dealt with, and finally she promised to take care of it, but could not ensure it would be done by the time mom could leave, so she might have to stay a few hours longer.
>
> which then again forced me to recheck with the other appointments for the home nurse who would come by and visit at our arrival home so she could come later if necessary, etc…
>
> so irritating and exhausting, but finally when we got to the hospital the clog was removed.
>
> we also got the necessary paper, a brief and very simple form saying my mom suffers from dementia, nothing else on it, no gradation, no specifications, all that work and all those tests to get a simple form like this, which had to be put under the neurologists nose to get him to sign as he would forget to do so otherwise. the nice social assistant had taken care of that bit for us..
>
> so now we have the form which enables my mom to get on the real list to make a chance to get in the good nursing home in her street..
>
> everyone says now,including the doctors, and also my brother, my mom is not really fit anymore to live on her own..
>
> today the nurse comes by who is supposed to give her her midication, and a wash,but mom might send her or him in this case back home soon…
>
> the wash is another crazy rule, if they would only come by to give medication, thy would charge for it, not a large amount but certainly becoming large as it is on a daily basis..
> so we needed to ask them to include the washing, then it is completely free!!
> told them to bring it in a way like’ shall I give your back a nice wash?’
>
> at first back home she did not even notice her car was gone, for several hours, but when she did it was not too bad, she protested and muttered, but no tears.
>
> the cry she had at the hospital was crucial, a real thorough and deep crying.
>
> might still come of course, as she keeps forgetting..
>
> then it has to be seen if she accepts the extra household help who comes by once a week if things go well…
>
> in any case I think it might only be a matter of months,unless she really cooperates with the helpers and gets a bit less confused..
>
> and of course there must be a place available in the home, and noone more urgent before her..
>
> so still worries, but at least major steps have been takes,.
>
> her house doctor also came by, I had called him in the morning, checked my mom, and her ear, the clog was really gone, an dpromised to keep an eye on her..
>
> she suffers most from the strong and continuous tints, but not much to do about that, there are some remedies but the specialist at the hospital did not think they were useful in mom’s case, too invasive and too little chance for succes.
>
> so well, fingers crossed for the next stage.
>
> next week we go for a drink with mom to the cafetaria from the home, she wants it and we want it an dthen hope
> efully we can meet some of the people there she knows from years back, and feel more inclined to go there.
>
> she goes back and forth now between feeling like going there and feeling she definitely prefers her house..
>
> to be continued…
> M
I find this so inspiring (excuse me I do)……….and with all the ‘ill health’ here and in the world in general makes one think………………
Sorry please ignore above this is the link……………..
Larry,
> that must be such a painful situation, specially for his nearest family.
> wish you can give and get some support with each other.
>
> am exhausted today;
> our mom’s cleaning lady is worth her weight in gold.
>
> she helped us in so many ways that go far beyond her job description..
>
> too tired to go into things today..
>
> situation still worrisome as mom is having a hard time about her car etc., ‘losing her privacy’, try to help and support at best, asked her boyfriend to give her a call, he first said I tol her I’d come by tomorrow, I replied she does not remember those things at all..
> he is such a weakling and selfish sometimes, but promised to call her.
> will call her later on, brother will go see her again tomorrow probably..
> M
Quite by accident I was biking past the Nuart and the new movie about Steve Jobs had just arrived. I wanted to see it because it was made my Alex Gibney who always makes movies I like very much. He has made them on L Ron Hubbard (Scientology) Julian Assange, Lance Armstrong, Eliot Spitzer and more and they are all very good IMO.
This one……………….I would say yes it’s good well worth seeing I would say. It is far from being some kind of hagiography of Jobs maybe more the opposite shows a lot of the ‘ugly’ and maybe not so much of the ‘good and the bad’. He was adopted and apparently the couple who were due to ‘take’ him did not want him because they only wanted a girl. So they found just someone else ‘on the list’ who agreed to take him. Neither of his ‘new’ parents had gone to College and transparently his birth/real mother held things up until they would agree that for sure they would sent him to College. Not to get too ‘primal’ about it but I sensed all this had a big impact on him and he had a hard time with ’empathy’ every afterwards and had a kind of very mixed up feeling of being ‘rejected’ by his real Mom and being made ‘special’ by his adoptive parents
He comes across as quite a flawed and troubled person and very driven but not happy or at least in only rare moments. He dabbled in mysticism and meditation especially around the age on 18 – 20 and there was no mention of any connection to primal therapy though I have read he dabbled in that too a little bit. In a ‘mock therapy’ place using Janov’s terminology though Janov also ‘claims’ him as a sometimes ‘primaller’ in the blurb for “Life Before Birth” (That could be called one ‘marketing man’ (PR) using another marketing man (PR) again)
One interesting thing for me is apparently he was a very strict vegetarian his daughter describes him eating kale soup and once he found out there was butter in it he spat it out. It reminded me of Michael Holden and i would wonder what that did to his health. He died comparatively young maybe around 56 y.o. and he seems a very broken man at the end of his life. For some reason it reminded me of a biography/movie about Howard Hughes a few years ago. I suppose a typical American ‘success’ story which means really a ‘failure’ story in another and maybe truer sense. Anyway all that is just my take I would recommend it, Guru I can imagine you might like it.
I kind of wondered what would have changed about his life if he had ‘really’ delved in primal therapy? In some kind of ideal world it probably would have changed a lot for him and he would not have taken a lot of the roads he took but in the ‘real world’ as it was at the time…………..if he came to Janov’s PI I imagine he would have lasted about 3 moths tops and then he would have said ‘fuck this’. This is the trailer
Yeah apparently Jobbs was a nasty piece of work. Must have been thought to be powerful for folks to wait until he’s dead to tell all.
This song was in the Steve Jobs movie………………..and I thought the voice so soft and beautiful the kind of softness and empathy that at least I can only find in ireland. Dolores O’ Riordan (Cranberries) is the singer. Otto is this after your time? early ’90’s I think……………
The movie I watched tonight was excellent. “Still Alice” about a woman with early onset Alzheimer’s. It brought up big feelings for me. It was the way one of the daughters
related to her sick mother and took on the role of being strong and taking care of her
at the end of the movie that really got to me. I guess it’s that no one was ever really
strong like that for me, like I needed.
Phil
Phil – I saw that movie during the Winter and I liked it very much also. Your use of the phrase “It brought up big feelings for me”…………..I dunno that always makes me cringe a bit like it is very ‘jargonish’ and also something not ‘individual’ about it like treating yourself as just an example of a group or ‘group thinking’. I remember way back in the day some of my friends and myself used to mock that way of talking it feels like ‘jargon’ and dare I sat it a bit ‘cultist’. I will probably ‘regret’ saying this and I will have to ‘pay’ for it in one way or another but this is a place we are supposed to be able to just give our reaction and that is mine. It has to do with feelings as being is some special realm almost outside of real life……………which to me was Janov’s big mistake (which I probably will be made to ‘pay’ for also – anyway I CAN say it so I appreciate that)
Speaking of that I find myself wondering if this movie maker Alex Gibney was to make a documentary on Janov and PT what would it say or be like. My first thought is it would not say MUCH, like is there even much to say. That’s not necessarily a bad thing after all most of these guys where there is a lot to say are ‘tragic failures’ pretty much……………….Janov would not fall into that category he is ‘smarter’ than that he has a lot better ‘self preservation’ instincts (maybe too much of that lol) but at the same time as something that was going to change the world PT I mean……………is like a firecracker that mostly never got going. Like something that went off with a bang and ended with a whimper to change up TS Eliot’s poem a bit
Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
It started with this…………….but ended with what?
Quote: “Your use of the phrase ‘It brought up big feelings for me’…………..I dunno that always makes me cringe a bit like it is very ‘jargonish’ ”
Of course! For someone that never gets “a feeling coming up” and THINKS crying is stupid and childish … would CRINGE at anything other that having an angry tantrum while slinking around the Institute. Then, to make matters worse plays being an authority on Primaling by suggesting, sessions, groups and retreat are NOT the way to do (your version) of proper Primal therapy. Maybe you were doing PT whilst sitting in the office at Gentle Giant for 17 hours a day for all those (25) years.
Why don’t you set up your very own Primal organization ???????? You’re a good enough salesman to get some clients.
Jack
Jack – you as usual miss the point (deliberately?) no I don’t think crying is ‘stupid and childish’ but I see how it can be and has been turned into something ‘people want to do’. They ‘want’ to feel or ‘try’ to feel and it becomes almost a fetish……………….with all the sad and predictable results we see here and all over PI land. As far as ‘salesmen’ goes you ARE a PR man but I don’t think you can talk to people much without getting their back up so not that I am looking to fill that ‘position’ but the answer would be an easy “NO” for me…………..
The fact that none of these kinds of issues (‘trying’ to feel etc) can be talked about without first of all you as an attack dog pouncing on any perceived ‘
heresy’ is very telling and very typical. You do Janov’s unpaid dirty work for him very diligently. You are what in politics is known as a ‘useful idiot’…………
Hi Phil. I know what you mean about the movie bringing up feelings about your mom. Good that you could get to that.
Last year I saw “August; Osage County”, with Meryl Streep. Her character is a matriarch type with a vile temper who takes narcotics to deal with her mouth cancer pain, but overuses them to deal with past emotional pain. It reminded me of my mom and her red-hot temper, which was very scary at times, always lashing out at someone.
I was so engrossed in the movie, I thought afterwards: I hope Meryl is okay with her health. Funny how we buy into those feelings of the character or situation of a story.
I remember reading about ‘movie night’ at the P. Institute, where the whole group by the end of it was weeping with some feeling brought up.
Sorry Phil, know your comment was not specifically about your mom–but feeling in general about someone being strong being not there for you. Must have confused it with my ‘stuff’ and prior ‘mom stuff’ you spoke of. Hasta luego.
S.
Sylvia,
We already returned “Still Alice” but I would get it again because of the impact it had on me. No, it didn’t specifically remind me of my mother; I’ve yet to see a movie that
does that. The movie you mention, “August; Osage County”, also sounds worthwhile.
It’s actually my wife who picks out the movies and she comes up with ones I often
am reluctant to watch, but they usually turn out to be feeling oriented and good.
Phil
Phil, if you can find, ” Away From Her,” starring, Julie Christie and Gordon Pinsent; it is so not Hollywood; real to the core; losing someone who still lives; intensely moving.
David, I’ll look that one up, “Away From Her”. Sounds good. Movies different from the Hollywood norm are usually the type we are looking for.
Thanks,
Phil
i am putting stuff on this blog to keep from losing my sanity. If i seem like a dumb ass, bitter old man, victim, self-absorbed, wallowing in my own misery for decades, that’s right. Go fuck yourself. I am not saying go fuck yourself to anything i have seen on this blog; just my paranoia says, that for the things I have written here, that is what people would say of me. Anyway, doing my 2014 taxes 6 months late, and i am also wallowing in fear full-blast. We got less income last year, but the IRS will always want more than their fair share. I am not cowering, just lashing out like a wild animal being attacked. Or maybe it was infant-me that was too attacked in too many ways.
Otto, I always read and empathize, and never have the urge too tell you to fuck off. I am however at a loss to say anything helpful. This is not to be sarcastic, but what feedback would be comforting for you to hear?? You must have inhuman inner strength. I’m an old pal of hurt, pain, hopelessness and isolation, too. Before Primal I was completely capable of killing myself. Got interrupted on my one planned trip out. Decided I wanted a peanut butter and strawberry jam sandwich for the trip. So glad I was interrupted. My kids weren’t supposed to come home after school and did. Fuck, the thought that they would have found me in my car. It wasn’t them that interrupted my exit. It was a friend. There are times I’ve been rightly pissed that Primal took that away from me. But, I survived the horrors as a more vulnerable little kid, a baby. I can handle this. Not, fun, not pretty, when the shit dials me up, but I can. No one’s ever gonna get more out of me !!!
Also not fun , not pretty when life, warped by the shit, dials me up.
Patrick:
I read your blog post concerning Steve Jobs. Do you remember my blog post from January 26, 2014 where I provided a supplemental reference article detailing, “What kind of Buddhist was Steve Jobs, anyway?”
(hope the link goes through)
I was a bit disappointed you didn’t seem to remember this link I posted from 20 months ago. And here I thought all the links I provided and everything I wrote was special and fantastic..
(correction)…all the links I provided and everything I wrote were special and fantastic.
Yuck, that’s probably my weakest area of English grammar.
I know the feeling ?? I have to learn another language than, ” Wookie,” to express my pain in. Very unsatisfying when it goes unrecognized. lol
Guru – thanks for that. I vaguely DO remember……………but also I remember not reading it. I remember reading the beginning and I dunno you know how it is so many links so little time…………but I read it all now. Quite interesting and relevant to the movie for sure. More thorough than anything the movie got into but it was emphasized in the movie also, it was clear there was some kind of big influence there. Seemingly it was something that persisted throughout his life and informed a lot of what he did. Which come to think of it is another reason I found Janov’s kind of trying to ‘claim’ him at the time he put out “Life Before Birth” distasteful AND dishonest……………..distasteful also in that Jobs had died right around that time. Jesus Christ talk about ghoulish using of someone who had just did and was NOT a ‘follower’ of yours. Disgusting! and very low/no class……………..
Are you more a Mac person or Windows? As far as seeing the movie I don’t think it matters I imagine you would find it very interesting. Have you seen any other of Alex Gibney’s movies I have never seen one I did not like and like a lot. It has even crossed my mind today to try to contact him (now do you contact someone like that) and see if he might be interesting in making one about Janov and the whole PI thing. I think he would in many ways be the man for the job and actually maybe I will try.The PI is too ‘obscure’ and ‘unknown’ for most of these high profile guys but even that (to me) would be a fascinating idea like WHY is it so ‘obscure’ and ‘unknown’. It was supposed to change the world after all. BTW Janov has said recently a ‘biography’ of him is being written but I wonder by whom? Probably some ‘insider’ flack that’s why I think it might be very interesting to have a guy like Gibney give it the light of day and the oxygen of investigation.I would not mind appearing on camera I have always wanted to be a star lol…………….
In the Jobs article you sent I liked this ““You’re perfect just as you are — and you could use a little improvement.” doesn’t that kind of sum up our dilemma somehow anyway thanks for that and in future I will pay more attention to your ‘links’ I hope……………
Patrick: Soon, I will send you some super special secret information via email in response to your question(s) here.
The world seems to have shocked by the picture of the little Syrian boy washed up on a beach in Turkey. Guru – since you reminded me of your old links you can also read where I ‘predicted’ this kind of a situation 2 years ago. It is an ongoing and deliberate dis membership of a State by the usual ‘bad actors’ Israel, the US and the UK. They are systematically and deliberately wrecking Syria but all we are supposed to be is ‘deeply saddened’ to quote PR man we are not supposed to look behind the curtain much.
Anyway given that that is the horrible situation now we are dealing with I took a quick scan here of the news and here is the reaction in Ireland from the Irish Times
“Irish Deputy PM Joan Burton has said there is no “upper limit” on the number of refugees Ireland will take.
Speaking on Newstalk radio on Sunday, Ms Burton said she did not want to put a figure on the numbers of refugees and migrants because it is an evolving situation.
“Ireland has to and will step up to the plate,” said Ms Burton. “As a country that is what we have always done
“The Government has had a number of detailed discussions, particularly the decision to send the navy and the decision to accept whatever number we are asked to accept.”
Asked what the figure would be, Ms Burton said it would be “the figure that we need to take”.
“It could be 5,000, I wouldn’t like to put an upper limit on it.”
And here is the reaction from Israel
At the cabinet session, Mr Netanyahu coupled his remarks on Syrian refugees by saying that Israel must further secure its borders against African migrants and Islamist militants.
He announced the start of construction of a new 30-km (18-mile) stretch of fence along the frontier with Jordan, which signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1994.
Israel completed a 230-km (143-mile) barrier along the Egyptian border in 2013. Israel and Egypt made peace in 1979.
Israel has fences on the Lebanon border and along the line between the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights and Syria.
So that’s right Ireland and many other countries that have nothing do with the problem will open their hears and their borders but Israel which to my mind has essentially caused the problem will build a wall against them. Is it any wonder people become a little ‘anti-semitic’ to use a word.
This gives some background to the little boy on the beach…………..
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/04/europes-refugee-crisis-and-the-depraved-morality-of-david-cameron/
I don’t know for sure why I would want to stay on this topic since life can be such horrible drag as it is even without focusing on dead children pictures, yet I will indulge this briefly.
All you have to do is go to Google search engine, type “children killed” and click on “Images”.
There are plenty of pictures of dead children out there from all sorts of circumstances, but why did the news media choose to show that one PARTICULAR child out of many? Was it to raise an issue that serves a powerful person’s financial or political interest in the background? I can research this topic enough and find stories of plenty of children under the age of three dead and mangled in car wrecks, all with an unknown picture behind them.
I hate the news media in so many forms, yet there is no choice but to consume the stuff or else there would be nothing. (ie. “you either take your thin gruel or starve, Mr. Oliver Twist”)
Guru – I dunno it seems/feels to me there is something very emblematic about that picture. Also being just washed ashore like that, the ocean is supposed to wash ashore if anything dead fish/animals not dead humans. Also his death is symbolic of a whole people the whole Syrian people are dying so to speak so he is their ‘representative’. To me the picture is very powerful and very tragic and sad. And it makes me angry too like I say I ‘predicted’ all this on this blog about 2 years ago if anyone cares to look, not that I think or thought that makes me ‘smart’ or anything. It is/was obvious this was going to happen…………..ever since Obama just casually said “Assad has got to go” He had no right whatsoever to say that it is hone of his our our business. Can you imagine some Syrian saying “Obama has got to go” But that is the level of our arrogance and ignorance and so long as we continue being Israel’s b….. worse and worse will continue to happen…………………..
I ask this of Patrick or Sylvia or anyone else for that matter:
Have you seen this article detailing how James Holmes, the Colorado theater shooter killing 12 people and injuring almost 100 others, received a bunch of love letters from women all over large parts of the globe along with spending cash for his jailhouse stay?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-james-holmes-letters-support-20150903-story.html
Some of the mail was turned away by the county sheriff’s department because the envelopes had lipstick and perfume on it.
You know…..I don’t even have a parking ticket to my name and I would LOVE to have lots of women send me love letters and cash. It would really get my breadwinning juices flowing inside of me instead of struggling with being a paralyzed stone while time marches by alarmingly fast. What am I doing wrong here? Where are MY love letters?
Guru – that is a very odd thing and I have read about it several times before. Doesn’t Charlie Manson still get love letters? I think there are two kind of different things happening here though. One is some kind of natural ‘pity’ for people in prison, also they are ‘safer’ than having a relationship with a ‘real’ person they are after all safely locked up! And I suppose people project their own feelings of imprisonment or hopelessness etc onto the prisoner.
But I think another aspect of it is ‘celebrity culture’. These guys like Holmes or the Menendez Brothers or OJ or whoever are celebrities in that they are in the news and really are kind of ‘famous’ or ‘infamous’ take your pick. So Guru for that to happen to you you have to get yourself to a prison AND become famous or do it all in one go by going to prison and becoming famous at the same time.
Maybe the life you have is better……………
In my ,” former life,” I was shocked by learning how common that is.Canadian Alan Legere, dubbed, ” the Mad Butcher of the Miramachi, was not only inundated by women vying for conjugal visits but marriage proposals; finally marrying a journalist. Legere is a convicted rapist and serial killer of helpless people, including elderly nuns. I once did an assessment on a woman who left her husband and children to become the official self appointed concubine of the Maritime Canada prisons. Her application was denied… ha
I write songs, TSUG, and wrote one expressing the thoughts and sentiments you mention. Shit I’m a pretty okay guy and no throngs of babes… hah
Whoa, that’s the most I’ve seen you share, ” a paralyzed stone…” You seem cool; but no love letters from me, I’m straight.
David: I’m 110% straight, too, but it’s not all about the love relationships on their own. Just the idea that lots of women would want to pay spontaneous attention to me without any urging on my part would be a huge part of the gratifying testosterone/endorphin rush. I feel like it would loosen a lot of internal blockages for me, at least for a while. It would send me into a “superhero” modality. I’ve seen it happen to me before on multiple occasions.
I have no further comment on the blog in this direction even though I could say a lot more. Nothing personal.
I’m still shaking my head about these mass killers receiving all these love letters. The worst crime I’ve committed was being pulled over one night in 2011 and I received a warning ticket because my car headlamp was burned out. I still have the warning ticket in my glove box as a cute little amusing souvenir. Nary a love letter to be found in that glovebox alongside the ticket.
Amen…
Yes Guru, you are very funny. I’m sure you could find lots of confused, unstable, emotionally needy gals at a bar. Know you are too smart for that. It seems the ones who are writing to him have also suffered mental problems and sympathize with him.
Sad that women are so desperate for love with their perfumed letters.
You don’t really want adoring letters–you have all us for that. S
Thank you, Sylvia. What little I know of you..You do seem like a very sweet person.
Quote:- “What am I doing wrong here? Where are MY love letters?”
Using a pseudonym that I suspect puts most women off. Gurus, for the most part, are not thought of as romantic creatures A real first name that does not violate ANY form of privacy might … jiut might, garner some romantics letters.
Try it.
Jack
> my brother went to my mom yesterday and cooked for her, and to my surprise also brought her for a short visit to my place, which was nice, altough she still feels a bit dim..
> don’t know if it is the medication or her not hearing well at all because of the very strong tints..
> wil check for a new hearing aid to replace the one she lost long ago, maybe that will help.
> gave her a strong hug which felt good.
>
> woke up crying this night, dreaming first she refused to respond to me, or react to my attempts to get a reaction out of her, felt bad.
> then when I cried for feeling so sad and lonely she suddenly came up to me with her arms towards me, and I cried, and said ‘keep loving me still..?’
>
> woke up crying, which is exceptional, there can be intense crying in some dreams but now it was also real at waking up.
> felt good though to finally get to some of the pain..
>
> my brother also went to see her as he wanted to check if the medication did not make her too dopey, as then he would cancel it, but he said she was ok really..
>
> the household service stil did not call, but I do not mind as otherwise it might get too much at a time for our mom, want to leave her some breathing space without too much interference in her life at once..
>
> today she should see her friend and people of the hiking club, did not get her on the phone but that feels good, she must be busy.
>
> only want to remind her of the meal she has and how to warm it up..
> also want to hear her really..
> it is sad to see her so small and more insecure, would be nice to see her socializing again some day at the nursing home, but maybe that will remain just a hopeful dream, the future will tell..
> Larry,, how is your brother-in-law, and you and the rest of your family?
> sorry if this question might be posted after you spoke about it maybe..
> M
Margare I don’t have easy access to a computer, so can’t write much. They got his heart started 15 min after it stopped. His higher brain centers died from no oxygen. ie. most of his brain is dead. Brainstem is alive and keeping breathing heart and kidneys going, unfortunately. Pneumonia has set in. Lungs filling with fluid. Loud gurgling reflexive struggle to breathe. Intolerably distressful to witness. His wife (my incredibly grounded sister) is at his side all afternoon, all evening and all night. Their two adult married children spell her off in the morning. They and family and friends visit and give support thru the day.
We hope the end comes soon. No one should have to see this, especially not his wife and kids. It is tortuous to see him in that state.
I need to cry but too overwhelmed and no safe place. My sister’s and the kids love and devotion to him touch me. For them to witness this unexpected and tortuous end of their husband and father is too cruel. I can only bear to visit a few hours at a time. I hope it helps. Glad a lot of other people are dropping by. I would have neen scarred if Noreen’s end was this horrible.
Larry
All so sad Larry…Thinking of you and know that the comfort you are creating as a family helps.
with love,
L.
> just called my mom and despite she did not remember having been here yesterday, and misses her car, she sounded quite ‘up’. she said she does not mind not remembering, as long as she enjoys the moment..
> she really is a survivor, I admire her for that.
> nice to hear her stronger again!
> my brother said we will do our best to do nice things for and with her, and I fully agree..
> M
> Phil, all of us, except Patrick who does not want to or maybe cannot understand, know what you refer to with what you said about feelings being triggered.
>
> I hope nobody holds back on writing stuff like this, we all know the difference between simple empathy and the feeling stuff in our subconscious is being triggered, emotions that need to be looked at or simply want to come up.
>
> if someone wants to know more details we are all able to ask, I am so sick and tired of this repeated nonsensic attacks on anything that smells ‘primal’.
> childish and tiresome are two words that come to mind..
> M
Margaret,
Maybe Patrick jumps to the wrong conclusions based on his own experiences.
I’m not aware of people having a problem with a crying fetish. It’s always been helpful
for me and important for my therapy process, and I have spent countless hours with it.
The progress has usually been slow however, and I always assumed that was because of me and the nature of my traumas and not due to a fault in the therapy or theory.
Over time I have found that assumption to be right.
It would have been better to have expressed all of the crying, anger, need etc. when I was a child and going through so much. It wasn’t possible for me then as it was all too much.
But this therapy is the next best thing. I really don’t know where I would be with out it.
I maybe wouldn’t have made it at all.
Phil
I’m now torn between laughing at Jack’s post and being mortified by Larry’s horrid post. I think I will just have to call it a night, instead. Thank you for indulging me with your attention earlier, bloggers..
Laugh away … fun doesn’t come easy. But laughing won’t get you any love letters either.
Gurus are notorious overweight and poor … lets hope you don’t fall into that category otherwise your chances are really grim.
Jack
Ordinary gurus may be disproportionately overweight and poor, but not THE Ultimate Superstar Guru such as myself. No way, Jack. I guarantee you I have much better living arrangements than yourself. My house is too big, in fact. But, more to the point, you completely missed the jovial spirit of the love letter conversation yesterday. I asked that question rhetorically for FUN; you took it way too literally.
When I truly feel in the mood to ask gay men in their 80’s how to best receive love letters from women, you will be the first person I think of!
Addendum with quote:- “I’m now torn between……….. ” You don’t have be be torn … you can be both … being mortified AND have fun and laugh. I am quite sure that Larry is aware that his story is “mortifying” and equally knows most of us support him, as he expresses himself on the blog. Meantime, you and I are at liberty to have our fun BUT … you asked the question “Where did I go wrong” and I thought, in all fun, to answer the question.
Big house or no big house does not denote the quality of life. For me, the greatest factor in the ‘quality of life’ arises out of a loving and caring relationship. Maybe that is not the case with everyone. I assume, maybe wrongly, that you don’t have a romantic relationship, and for all your rhetorical questioning there seemed a deeper significance for you in all this. Again I could be wrong … but I have no desire to anal-ize (Patrick’s word) you. I find you a hard ‘nut to crack’. You seem, as I and my siblings did when we were young; to make a joke out of everything. It was a good defense on mine and my siblings part.
Meantime, I personally, don’t see any deep feelings being expressed by you. But then that could be just me. Other might well. Last point; getting love letters is not dependent upon being either gay or straight. Both are capable of deep satisfying and loving romantic relationships … lest that you were not aware of it.
Jack
Jack: You are mistaken on many counts here, and I’m sure Janov was also chanting in agreement with you that “big house or no big house does not denote quality of life” as he moved out to the Malibu beaches? Why implore Janov to move to a one-bedroom apartment in Compton and see how far it gets you?
You have proven yourself by past deeds to be a completely untrustworthy individual, and you are the last person I would want to share anything about my life with,
If I want to receive love letters from elderly gay men I promise to look you up!
I will always be your Ultimate Superstar Guru, though, haha!
QED
(correction) “why not implore Janov to move to a one-bedroom apartment…”
I skip words a lot when typing in a hurry…
Thanks for the corrections. 🙂 🙂 .
Jacks
Another quote:- “and you are the last person I would want to share anything about my life with.”
Not only are you then depriving yourself of wanting to share any of your life with me, but also every one else on the blog. Seems like you’ve trapped yourself into your own cocoon.
Again: I could well be wrong, but I did consider that this Primal Therapy blog was about us all sharing our feelings of ourselves with everyone. However, I am sure you will leave me corrected.
Jack
Jack; You’ve said many, many times in the past this blog is not therapy, only banter. Now the blog is therapy? Why have you changed the rules now?
What I’m saying is that of all the people on the blog I would contact individually you would be at the bottom of the list.
Aside from the times I write directly to you, your presence makes no difference as to what I want to write on the blog itself.
Hi TUSG
Further to your posting of an hour ago to Jack. What is this venom about?
Tom
Tom: I truly believe you are asking the wrong person this question.
I will take your questions one at a time. I never stated that the blog was “only banter” What I did say was that:- “I loved the banter” being my characterization of what, for the most part, was taking place between Patrick and I. I contend, as I feel, most other do that expressing ones feeling on the blog is definitely therapeutic, and certainly is for me. If you are convinced that I am changing the “rules”, that is your choice.
I have absolutely no problem with you putting me on the bottom of your list. BUT I see some contradiction in this statement, since you and I have spent most of the back and forth today (banter if you like) with one another. So much, as I see it, for being at the bottom of your list. Granted that you stated “contact individually”
Quote:- “Aside from the times I write directly to you, your presence makes no difference” Maybe I have it all wrong, but I see this blog as interacting with one another. Of course, if you are responding to someone else, I would certainly hope that my presence here makes no difference to you what-so-ever.
I do feel that it irks you somewhat that I characterize you (and Patrick also) as being ‘crooked thinkers’ … in the Thouless sense of “crooked thinking”. If you were genuinely curious, I would have thought you might have read his book. It’s on the internet to read for free. I gather neither you nor Patrick have read it?
Jack
Jack: I’m finished participating in this insane discussion. Let’s focus on Larry and Rod now.
I never thought of our discussion ( banter) as being insane, but if you did I wonder why you continued for almost the whole day. I, as I feel most reading both of us, sort of sensed that I was enjoying it … which I was. However, since I now gather you want to cease … that’s fine with me. Ta Ta 🙂
Jack
I am not trying to be a pain-in-the-ass about this but it feels to me this article ts too important not to put out there wherever I can. I have sent it to all my family etc. The situation in the world is getting dire when the ocean gives up babies and not fish things are serious. To me every single paragraph of this is worth reading and deep thinking about
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/07/turning-the-cradle-of-civilization-into-its-graveyard/
I read the whole link as carefully as I could and agree with the essence of it in-so-far as it sissincly states what is wrong with the current state of affairs. From my readings and knowledge ever since Karl Marks and before, there have been many thinkers that are equally aware of the ‘folly’ of our civilization. In the same vein I saw a program over the weekend by a professor of economics from Massachusetts University; Richard D. Wolff, giving a similar talk on the misguided notions of our capitalist system. I would have liked to have contacted him and given my view on his talk. He did at the end of his lecture to those present have and question and answer section. I did not find a way to contact him.
What I personally find fault with all economics and economist is … not that they don’t see the problem … but that they do not offer a solution OUTSIDE of capitalism. They still maintain, as did the earlier communist revolutions, to maintain capitalism al-be-it socialist capitalism. Richard D. Wolff did the same
Then to add to my own frustrations, I saw another program about Queen Elizabeth and her pending longest reigning monarch. It added at the end that she was mightily rich, also along with a large stipend from the British tax payers. I wonder at my own reasons for watching the whole ‘parade’. I find it so sick, and that most of the British and commonwealth members, support this whole ‘fairy tale’.
To and for me, the solution is so simple … yet the implementation of that solution, quite complex, I grant. Abolish money and all means of exchange and “voila” it all falls into place and then there ceases the need for law, governments, monarchs, police to enforce law, militaries to force our will on others, prisons for those not doing it our way, and on and on.
It’s tantamount to the very same mind-set (or lack thereof) with current policing and killings. Abolish guns and the munitions to make those guns killer machines. Alas we neurotic humans are blind to these simple solutions. However it would take some energy, debate and rethinking to implement either or both. We’d rather stay with complex reshuffling of the ‘decks of the Titanic’.
Jack
Hi JAck
What makes you think that by abolishing ‘money’, it will fix all ills of the world and the world’s economies?
Pardon me if you’ve explained yourself before.
Tom
Tom: I think you and I have been through this before. It would take more space to fully answer your question than I feel would be either allowable, expedient or desirable to go into it.
Just let me say that I got into this way of thinking by attending a series of lectures at Regents Crescent in London (near Regents park) way back in my twenties. The lecturers were talking about “Democracy” and our concepts of it. They demonstrated that is was a misnomer. They were anarchist, not in the sense of being rowdy protesters wanting to burn and loot, but wanting to promote the discussion, hopefully to the point:- as stated by Karl Marx that “capitalism” would inevitably fail. They also stated that Communism as practiced in Russia and it’s satellites, would also fail, since as they saw it did not displace (replace) Capitalism but merely created “Socialist Capitalism”
Marx from my reading of him did talk about the “withering of the state” Something that never occurred in any communist country. What did happened, is what in actually happened after the French Revolution the monarch was REPLACED by yet another sort of monarch (Robespierre). and so the merry goes on and on. What is required is a “conceptual leap”…”thinking outside the box”…”a whole other way of thinking”… or to use my phrase “a whole other way of being”.
It’s conceptual in essence, which I feel most are not willing to contemplate. Hence, neither I nor anyone else can state what will actually take place, since there will be seven billion of us deciding for ourselves, what we would want to do, to go and when. The only analogy I can think of is similar to someone attempting to figure out where the pedestrians of any given community will go; at what time and what speed and in what direction … yet, for the most part we do not bump into one another.
Jack
> Larry,
> that sounds so very painful for everyone concerned.
> my thoughts are with you and with your family..
>
> Jack, it occurred to me it might be Guru’s specific ‘nickname’ that triggers you, maybe you’d like to be the guru yourself? otherwise why does Otto’s many names don’t seem to bother you?
> just a passing thought..
> M
Margaret: I wrote a respons (August 09,2015 @ 8:29 am) to guru’s suggestion that I have something going on about him:- “I totally accept that there is something going on with me about someone doing Primal therapy (which if have it right) is about self revelations of the unconscious parts of oneself …………………….but yours (pseudonym) strikes me as being very conceited, and I feel strongly that you actually believe you have “tomes of wisdom”
I am not sure if you will be able to re-read it, or remember reading it.
Since I stated to you why I respond to Patrick the way I do, I feel a similar desire to respond to Guru; though I am aware that you often ask where he is when the blog goes quiet for a while. If by triggering you mean I have the desire to respond; I agree … but that does not mean I am angry with his or his pseudonym, and “NO”. being a Guru is not my quest in life. But I do see him using it as a means of hiding a part of himself. Hence my desire to poke. I find him almost as conceited and arrogant as I am, BUT lacking in “Straight Thinking” Just my own feeling.
I was not aware that Otto did use various “nick names”
Jack
Rod died early this morning. My sister was asleep in a recliner beside him in his hospital room. A nurse woke my sister to let her know Rod had passed. My sister told us that overnight Rod’s struggle to breathe was less intense than the day before.
I feel good how much support some of my siblings and their spouses were to my sister and her family through the ordeal. I’ve been distressed by Rod’s condition and the family’s suffering, but unable to have a cry. I’m glad I was here though and had some visits with them in hospital, and hope I was of some support, but honestly feel it was they who gave me strength.
Larry
Tomorrow I drive back home. Maybe there the events of the past few days will sink in. When the date is set I’ll return for the funeral.
Larry, I’m so sorry.
Larry, Very sorry about your loss. Phil
Larry: Sorry it turned out this way. My condolences.
Jack
Take care, Larry
S
Hi Larry
Thinking of you.
Tom
Larry, I’m so sorry. Gretchen
Oh Larry – heartbreaking to think of all that each of you has and will go through…
Sending you love,
L
Larry, I’m very sorry for your loss. Take care,
Sandy
> dear Larry,
> so sorry. it is so sad. it triggers me to think of your poor sister waking up with that kind of news..
> good to hear your family sticks together, I notice how much my own family suddenly starts meaning in tough situations, it is priceless to have them around for support..
> M
Actually, I hadn’t intended to write here about the tragedy in my family. I posted because of your interest and concern Margaret. Then I found that writing to everyone and receiving everyone’s response was touching me, keeping me in the feeling zone, helping me cope. I otherwise find myself distancing myself, shutting down, isolating from the harsh reality that hit my family the past week. But I want deal with it, not numb it away. Thanks everyone for caring.
Mid last week the neurologist determined that except for his brainstem, Rod’s brain was dead from receiving no oxygen during the more than 15 minutes before his heart was revived following his heart attack.
Grasping the full gravity that he was not in a coma but was in a brain dead vegetative state from which there was no coming back, the family hoped and wished for a quick and peaceful end to his life, and requested that all measures that were artificially keeping his body alive be stopped. Ironically his heart now beat strongly and vigorously in trying to keep his body supplied with oxygen, while his breathing became more and more laboured as his lungs filled with fluid due to pneumonia that had set in. The family made it clear to the medical staff that it was Rod’s wish, and it was the family’s wish, that in a hopeless situation such as this to bring his life to a quick and peaceful end. Unfortunately doctors and nurses cannot legally assist a patient to a dignified death. In the merciless avoidance of a prolonged tortuous death, our pets get better treatment than our loved ones.
It was stomach churning unbearable to be in Rod’s hospital room and witness his body’s struggle to breathe, the brain stem doing it’s job reflexively, autonomically to keep the body alive, for hours on end to hear the ever louder gurgle and rattle with every breath as his lungs filled with fluid, to see his now reflexively open lifeless eyes vacantly staring straight ahead at nothing as if he was totally concentrated on the excruciating effort to breathe and stay alive, his abdomen and chest roiling and heaving in violent spasms to bring oxygen to the blood to circulate through the body. I made myself visit in the hospital to support my family, but I wanted to run away, finding the situation agonizing, wanting to end his suffering, telling myself he wasn’t conscious and wasn’t feeling or suffering but feeling that he might be, wanting to end their suffering.
It felt disrespectful to him to let Rod go through this grotesque end of life. It felt excruciatingly cruel that his loved ones had to experience it and have this memory of it. Taking turns they made sure at least one of them was at his side at all times, while visitors came to lend the family support and went. The family made sure that the medical staff were as attentive to his care and comfort as was possible. The family wished for another, final heart attack to bring him peace. The family wished for a compassionate doctor to surreptitiously administer a lethal overdose.
Rod’s passing was met with relief that the suffering was over for him and his family, followed by a profound sense of loss.
I feel concern for my sister. I wish she didn’t have to go through the painful adjustment ahead to life without him. The past 10 days have been a shock to her and her 2 adult children. I will try to stay in touch with her more than usual in the hope I can be of some help.
Today I arrived back at home and finally cried some. Life hit us a very cruel blow. I need my Mommy and Daddy. If they had loved me I’d have more strength to face life’s calamities such as this. But Life’s first real cruel blow is that they didn’t.
Rod suffered from high blood pressure. You could sense it spiking in him when he got into an argument with someone as he was prone to do. The readiness, the intensity, the tenacity of his arguing seemed unreasonable. To me it felt like he was arguing with his parents. He was a cynical guy. He had an older sister, who completely dissociated herself from the family. The pieces of the puzzle known to me make me suspect Rod’s family was an intense unhappy one. I feel that Rod’s primal pain contributed to his high blood pressure, as did his diet. He craved Oreo cookies, ice-cream, candies and potato chips, snacking on them in the evening before bed time. My years of reading health newsletters tells me that excessive sugars and trans fats in the diet increase the risk of atherosclerosis and high blood pressure.
I’m glad I have this therapy to help me be less and less a captive of primal pain and of unhealthy food cravings. I’m glad I have this therapy and you on this blog to help me work through Life’s ups and downs in a healthy way.
Larry: Such a telling and sad story. It is so telling in that these type of circumstances are always prone for us all. BUT as you say you didn’t have a mommy and daddy, but finally did get this therapy that I and, I am sure all us, feel was a great gift considering such, as in your case especially, a terrible beginning.
It is posts like your that keeps this blog so alive.
I wish you as I know all others do, the very best for your upcoming retirement. Take great care Larry.
Jack
We are here for you Larry – thinking of you, your sister, their children…
Please write all that you can, and take extra special care of yourself.
ox L
Larry – I want to send you my condolences I was not ‘ignoring’ your situation there I just went off the blog for 3 days. I do that sometimes as I need to…………………
Vicki: I don’t know if you’ll catch my post here, but you and I talked about the author Neil Gaiman and it appeared to me you enjoyed his books. Humble Bundle is running a big sale of his books for the next two weeks; you can pick up a collection of 17+ of his books for around $20.
https://www.humblebundle.com/books
Thanks, USG, I will check that out. Neil is indeed special.
Hi USG
I can’t keep it in. I want to brag here.
My son, Jordan, has toured Neil Gaiman in Australia, USA and England.
I am so proud of my son.
………………………………
………………………………….
It just hit me. There is an old feeling for me here. My son made it. My little baby son, my precious baby, made it. All the struggle I went through, including this agonising therapy was worth it. My Jordan is OK.
………………………………………..
But I am hurting again. I haven’t made it. I am still struggling to make it.
It is unfair that you are hurting so much Tom.
I had chest pains for 3 weeks and then Monday they were noticeable enough that I went to ER. They kept me in the hospital for 2 days. They had me do a treadmill and found no blockage but high blood sugar. The chest pains went away after 2 days of taking insulin and greatly lessened eating and salt intake.. I like being in the hospital with someone to take care of me, nurses, especially women nurses, but even the male nurses who showed me how to use the tv and gave me headphones. Not that there was a damn thing on TV to watch. But it was interesting to hear the other patients talk. I was in the Medical Observation Unit at Cedars, and that means the walls are basically drapes. Old men asking the young nurse everything about her life; where she came from; where her husband came from. I could never do that, I was just the quiet schlub half-autistic patient hidden behind the curtains, wires to the left of me, tossing and turning at night trying to get comfortable enough to sleep. I got discharged before I could get the matzo ball soup and brisket dinner, oh well. That was my vacation for the year. I guess Z and I got a little closer during this episode. Now I am back to stressful life, eating like a horse, but no cheetos, which allowed me to stand going to work without flipping out. I won’t go back to work till next week, that is the big stressor, and I am not sure why. Impossible work load? Boredom? Changed work location? Worked since age 13 and that’s enough? Even if I make money, it is never enough. I had been using food to deal with stress, now what? Meditation—are you kidding me? Yes that is the kind of person I am, I think I know it all. I have certainly had my share of stress last year and this one: temporary layoffs (good times). Well not it was not temporary for Z. Dying dog and associated vet bills. I go see endocrinologist tomorrow to get insulin or what. I don’t know the downside of insulin. Oh. Weight gain. ouch
Hi Otto. Glad you are getting good help with high sugar problem.
My mom took the insulin injections for several years. It improved her health and she lived to a ripe old age. When your sugar is high the body is starving, which is stressful in itself.
Hope you start to feel better and the stress lessens with good health. Take care.
S
just read your post Larry. Sorry for your horrible horrible loss.
St Vincent (Bill Murray). A real tear-jerker.
Saw that too. He had a good friendship with the little boy. He was good in “Broken Flowers” too where he goes on a journey to find a woman who has written him an unsigned letter that he has a 20 yr. old son–but he doesn’t know which woman of his past she is.
There was a big photo of the little Syrian boy in the Irish newspaper (here they seem a lot more ‘prudish’ about things like that) and looking at if for quite a while I ask myself why is it so powerful and even so ‘beautiful’ in a way………………
To see him lying there and so ‘well dressed’ in a way, his socks and shoes, his short pants and his shirt, it is clear SOMEONE cares for him and cares a lot. Probably his mommy and even if she is ‘gone’ too other people extended family uncles and aunts maybe. Someone who is not far away and someone who cared for him VERY RECENTLY. The way he is lying there looks sort of content just softly laying there no struggle to live very like a baby happy at home in his crib. A beautiful and cared for and loved little baby/boy……………….and yet even he so early and soon has to reckon with great evil and danger in the world, not only reckon with it but succumb to it…………….but what touches people and moves people me included is the care and innocence and love he was given and felt is so close and yet now so far away…………………..
I’m touched and for some reason surprised by all of your condolences to me regarding the death of my brother-in-law. I appreciate your warm thoughts, thank you, but I have to tell you I feel guilty about receiving them, because I’m not suffering much. I know that with his death there’s been a reality paradigm shift in me, but I’ve been unable to complete the shift and feel and cry what it means.
Since being back home on Tuesday, I’ve been worn down by a mild cold. Then on top of it today I put in a 12 3/4 hour work day, swathing the last of our field research plots. What his death means to me, buttressed by your condolences, has been knocking on the door of my consciousness, but as yet I’ve been too tired to completely open and let it in.
With his unexpected death, I feel that reality has penetrated shadowy recesses of my mind and there cast a light on blinking startled knowing that life isn’t guaranteed and can be taken at any untimely stage, as was his, and as was that little Syrian boy’s on the beach. I feel keenly appreciative and lucky that I get to still be here and maybe have a few more decades, and feel sad that they don’t. It’s unfair and almost inconceivable that their time is over forever. Despite all its flaws and problems, I feel more acutely fortunate for my life and the chance to make it better, ephemeral though it is.
On Sunday, I fly in for Rod’s funeral on Monday. On Tuesday I fly back home.
Larry: I feel strongly that there is little need for your to feel guilty about any of this, and yes it is a revelation to all of us that death could come at any given moment. As you say; it sure is ephemeral.
It sure does feal unfair many times, but as I see it, life is just a journey … it begins has a middle and then an end. The saddest thing is that our beinnings could have been so much better … had our caretakes had a better beginning themslves and on and on backwards. Like you and most of us on this blog, we were lucky enough to learn about this therapy through what I consider a very brilliant discovery and then for it to be made available to those of us lucky (yeah pure luck) to be able to get here and get it, and for this blog that keeps us all in touch.
Take great care Larry. I wish you and everyone else, best wishes; and for you especially in this moment.
Jack
Thanks Jack. Tomorrow I fly in for the memorial service. All today I’ve been dragging my butt getting ready for travel. I go with a heavy soul, and it’s not just that I’m sad about my brother-in-law’s untimely death.
I think what is also bothering me is just how real it is that the end really does come, and the little child never ever does get what he/she needed, how there are no happy endings where everything is made up for what was lacking at the beginning.
As I get ready for traveling tomorrow, not far below the surface I have a powerful need to be hugged and comforted and reassured about life and who I am, for my internal life to finally be put right and on course to correct for the mistake of my parents not being able to love me.
I’ve been waiting all my life for those arms and the love to surround me and banish the fear and aloneness in me. At my last breath will I still be fearful and alone, still waiting for my parents to finally see me and love me!
That was me posting from a different web browser.
Larry
Larry: Wow, that is so, so touching.
You have been though more than most that I know of, BUT for the most part I see you as being one of very very few that was able to express it and connect it. Sure that’s not good enough, but you have shown great strength and courage to face your stuff, especially since for an all too breif a moment you did get someone … very very profound.
If you don’t let up on it all, I feel very confident that something will turn up for you. I have no idea what, but as the saying goes keep on trucking even though it will often feel you are dragging that fucking boulder up hill, little knowing what it will be like when you get it to the top.
Don’t know if you remember, but I suggested some time ago that when you retire that you might want to settle here in LA. Of course, it may be not that easy, but if you did I feel you would be nearer to some that would give you that big hug that you crave. We all need those hugs.
Meantime Larry keep on trucking and taking great care of yourself.
Jack
Jack – this is not some kind of tit-for-tat in terms of ‘quoting back’ which generally I really don’t like but I am curious about what you say here
“BUT for the most part I see you as being one of very very few that was able to express it and connect it.”
Do you really mean that? If so why do you think that might be the case? Are you one of the ‘very very few’ I presume you think so. Do you think so? If your statement is true why then do you try to sniff/snuff out any hint of ‘heresy’ or to my way of thinking/feeling possible ‘reform’ or ‘improvements’ on the theory and practice?
About a week ago Guru put on this link about Steve Jobs again and I was struck by the kind of ‘open’ discussions they had about Zen, meditation etc etc.And how ‘healthy’ that seemed and quite a contrast to primal where any kind of ‘thinking’ or ‘speculating’ about the theory and practice of it is quickly and reflexively shut down. Called a ‘head trip’ or whatever. This I suppose would all be fine if Janov REALLY had the ‘goods’ on all of this…………………but what if he doesn’t?. As brilliant as he is he seems to have made mistakes and maybe not just in the ‘practice’ but the ‘theory’ itself may be a quite a bit ‘off’
I can imagine all of this itself will be called another ‘head trip’ but if so and if everything is so hunky-dory then WHY do ‘very very few’ actually ‘suceed’. Are all the rest ‘failures’ then in which case I suppose I don’t need to feel that bad…………..it turns out I am in the ‘majority’ if your statement is to be believed?.
.Quote:- “…..in terms of ‘quoting back’ which generally I really don’t like …..” Why????
Then another:- “BUT for the most part I see you as being one of very very few that was able to express it and connect it” Perfect example of crooked thinking again:- I was not referring to myself, but to few … very few others who’s lives were so, so devastated in their childhoods I wonder at their ability to be still alive AFTER SO MUCH NEGLECT. Mine was no where near THAT bad.
You don’t even seem to grasp the nature of “head tripping”. A total head tripper by MY way of reckoning is Stephen W. Hawking. So much was he into his head that the rest of his body fell apart.
I did not say ‘so very few suceded’. (crooked thinking again) My feeling is quite the reverse, as I feel most on this blog can attest to You’re off all over the lot. Stick to one point at a time, and … stop slinking around the Institute. Doesn’t bode well for you.
If you think that Zen Meditation is so great then pursue that path. You obviously think it’s a healthy pursuit. Go for it.
Jack
> Larry,
> I think it is true that when being too tired, or when still having to keep functioning, feelings tend to be put on hold, a kind of safety measure to be able to cope at that particular time..
>
> you might start to feel more of the pain when going to the funeral, and afterwards..
>
> I notice it for myself, in any case..
>
> yesterday had a scary time when was unable to reach mom, after she also did not open the door for man with hearing aids..
> he called me and said he’d come back next week, and I thought she might be out for a walk, but when i could not get her on the phone during the next few hours my worry started rising..
>
> options started occurring to me, calling her doctor, calling her boyfriend, but I postponed it still for a while while keeping trying myself to call her, until finally she did pick up the phone.
>
> briefly it was a relief, but it soon changed in another kind of worry and frustration as she kept saying she could not hear who I was, could hear a sound but no understandable words, apologized for it, and finally she worked out it was me on the phone, when I exclained ‘yes!’ when she did mention my name among others…
>
> we were not able to get a normal conversation, but luckily she did take the initiative herself to say she had been sleeping all afternoon, and was about to have dinner and watch tv and that she was ok and I needn’t worry…
>
> she did hear my ‘ok!’, but still it was worrysome and frustrating like what if this option, to call her was out of order as well??
>
> I called her boyfriend early this morning, and he told me he had repeatedly tried to reach her on the phone as e
> well yesterday evening without being able to get hold of her, and had also had times when she could not hear what he said on the phone.
>
> he said it might be best to wait and see if the hearing aid would help…
>
> I asked him to check the phones loudspeaker when he would go by
> see m
> y mom that afternoon, and tomorrow he will go out with her all afternoon to an exhibition and a hike so that is nice.
>
> it is a reassurance the nurses come by every morning as to check the situation as well as giving the medication…
>
> this morning I got a reply mail from my brother, who I had called amd mailed yesterday evening, and he wrote he had got hold of mom on the phone yesterday evening and then she was fine…
> so it seems it are momentary timespans, maybe shortly after waking up
> , where she hardly hears a thing, not the phone ringing, and not what is being said on the phone if she hears it…
>
> it was making me feel a bit better reading that she improved again, and now I follow he
> is advice to take some time for myself as otherwise it gets too much…
>
> he will take time off once more to go there when the hearing aid man arrives next wednesday..
>
> all of this is hard for us but must be even harder for our mom, imagine being called and then not hearing who it is or what they say, it is such an isolation, must be so frightening…
> but she s
> did not seem too distressed, actually apologized and also apologia
> zed for not hearing the hearing aid man, and said we should not be angry at her as she could not help it…
>
> of course I tried to convey it to her I was not angry at all, think she heard that bit or at least the sound of what I meant..
>
> writing about it makes me feel some of the stress again, and the pain and sadness, fear and feeling of powerlessness about it..
>
> have to let it be for now, let the nurse and her boyfriend take over a bit today..
>
> M
> it suddenly struck me how much it frightens me to face the idea of losing my mom..
> I need her, I need her to be there, I need her to be there for me to turn to, can’t fully imagine losing her, even just a little as is happening now is hard to bear..
> there is the feeling of wanting to protect her, but underneath there is the terrible abyss of what about me???
>
> last night dreamed about struggling, being on the verge of a deep trench, that was crumbling away..
> I was scared, cautiously moving to try to find some grip to move backwards towards safer ground, find my balance to move away from the threatening danger, then looking down and being gripped by panic as the pit was so much deeper than what I had imagined it to be..
> deadly fear started to overwhelm me and then I woke up…
> M
Margaret: That sounded to me, like a great insight as to what your mother means to you. Even the dream seems to be holding something for you also. Hope you are able to connect to it. It also seems so close.
Jack
> just gave my mom a call.
> now more aware of doing so for myself more so than for her.
>
> but it was nice to be able to cheer her up, as she woke up kind of dazed, not knowing whether it was morning or evening, sounding downish, but talking with her and repeating she would go out with her boyfriend the next day, reminding her of the time of the day, that it was time to have dinner, that she could watch the evening news soon, made her become more alert and more up.
> she asked about the cats and it felt good to have called her and to have made her feel ‘in touch’ and not on her own in a world that must be becoming stranger and more out of control for her..
> as Larry, I feel aware of keeping some feelings at bay for the moment, but feel sure they will come in due time, even if it needs to be during my sleep..
>
> sadness mainly I think, mixed in with fear..
> M
> yes, Jack, it seems to be right under the surface all the time.
>
> just now dropping a garbage bag freaked me out, suddenly brought me in touch, partially, with some tremendous rage, or frustration, as there seems to be nooone in particular to aim it at, exept maybe myself, feeling so bad about myself, worthless, like some loser, not deserving anything, it all being my fault, and then something like’ see me! ME ME ME! I am here!! what about me!??’….
>
> a feeling of not counting, not mattering, but not capable of fully feeling all of it right now, too tired, too down, or scared, or whatever…
>
> i feel a weird mixture of selfconfidence and the complete opposite, worthlessness…
> M
Margaret: Wow!!! it all seems right there … ready to come to the surface. Sure, scary as all hell. Easy for me to tell you, but best you can: “let it happen”.
Jack
Larry, I finally got caught up with all of your sad news last night, then tried to comment, but in the middle, I think because of the heat wave here in L.A., my computer crashed — blue-screened out! I’m not turning it on much in this heat, with no A/C. Anyway, I’m sorry, and hope your trip goes as well as it possibly can, maybe to strengthen some connections, even though some others have been torn away.
I am concerned for my own brother (not the one many of you know), who had another stroke this week. He’s been taking his meds & watching his diet well, but he started throwing up, which happened the first stroke (several months ago). Scans showed a blockage from a clot in a small blood vessel in his brain. So they switched him to a stronger blood thinner, changed his diet a bit more, and urged more exercise — hopefully he’ll get more phys. therapy, because altho he works on exercising every day, since his balance is still bad, he can’t yet walk by himself, for fear of falling. Early after the first stroke, he did fall once, and not being able to brace with his arms, he landed on his nose and broke it (blood all over). Luckily it healed ok, and now his arms go out to brace, but still, he’s scared.
He’s the kind of guy who was used to being able to do whatever he wanted, physically. He was a plumber, dug ditches & poured cement, did all the work on his cars. So it is tough for him to be in a wheelchair, struggling just to stand and wash dishes. He measures his progress now literally in steps. From one step at a time, now he usually takes two steps, and can sometimes take three or four. He has knee pads, so he can crawl down the front brick steps (which he built), then pull his wheelchair down after him, lock it, and get himself up and into it. He can transfer himself from the wheelchair to the car, or a chair. He can bathe himself, and yesterday washed his own hair. Success on a different level.
Vicki: Sorry to hear this about your brother. When my brother (the one that just died) had a stroke leaving him speachless I too went into this feeling of “am I the next?”
I wish both your brother, you, and your other brother that we all knew; the very best under the circumstances.
Jack.
Vicki – that is discouraging news when your brother is trying so hard now. Hope he can keep working on what he wants to do.
Hard for you as his big sister too…
Take good care Vicki.
ox L.
I thought your other brother was older than you Vicki. That must be a huge setback to him to be suddenly so physically limited. Sounds like he isn’t giving up though in trying to get his physical ability back. Sounds inspiring.
Thanks, Leslie, Larry, David & Miguel. Larry & Leslie, he is not giving up, but he is so tired of being wheelchair-bound. They acquired a treadmill somebody else threw away, and are setting it up for Greg to try using, it’s got good handles. He also borrowed my rake, and raked his entire front yard from his wheelchair. And he’s figured out he can weed it (not too many), and is planning how to re-seed it and get a few plants as well. He sees a doctor about getting more phys. therapy, on Monday.
> Vicky,
> it is sad to hear about all the hardships your brother has to deal with.
> but he does sound like a fighter, working hard to make the best of things.
> M
Thanks, Margaret and Jack. It surprised me, because my brother is younger than me, although by less than a year. But he has not given up, and still hopes to not only walk again, but his goal is to be able to “overhaul the engine on his truck”, which made me laugh, but that’s his dream.
So sorry for the tragedy that struck Larry’s and Vicki’s families. david
The memorial service was on Monday. I’m home now, back to my regular life. It hurts that people important to me have died and a life that I cherished with them is eroded away and gone. I feel alone. I want my daddy to hug me.
The Prayer Cycle, Movement V, Grace
“Father won’t you carry me….”
The Prayer Cycle, Movement V, Grace
Father won’t you carry me
For the oceans wide
Father won’t you carry me
For my boat is so small.
Father on a moonless night,
help me cross the stormy sea.
Out here in the darkness
help me find my way back home.
Father won’t you carry me
For the oceans wide
Father won’t you carry me
For my boat is so small.
Father in this season of dying
Let me sleep in your arms
And come watch over me
Someone watching over me, Over me
Father won’t you carry me
Father won’t you carry me
Father won’t you carry me… Home!
Hi
Larry sorry for the loss of your brother in law and Vicky sorry for your younger brother heart problems
Miguel: I saw a travel program on PBS tonight about Andalucia which finished up in Seville. I did once pass through the city and thought it was a very elegant, but this program showed me just what a magnificent city it is. I gather it is your city. I thought of you throughout the program.
Take care Miguel.
Jack
> Tom, sounds like you did make it as a dad, and also and maybe even more so as a granddad, with plenty of joys to keep coming..
> all of course mixed in with a fair seasoning of old hurt to be processed, which is a real part of you.
> nice you are so proud of your son!
> M
Hi Everybody
It looks like you’ve all taken a vacation and deserted the primal blog. Interesting.
Any news about your brother, Vicki?
Any news about your Mum, Margaret?
How are you bearing up to the loss of your brother in law Larry?
Are you making tons of money USG?
And Jack. How is your Jim? Is he still putting up with you, the hero?
Otto. Is life getting any easier for you?
Sylvia, Sylvia. I am trying to place you. Forgive me, but my memory is going slowly.
Phil. What’s going on with you?
David. Do we know each other? I have been trying to place you. it’s not like you to be so quiet. Why?
Now that we are through the preliminaries, I thought I bring up a subject not commonly discussed here. Or not that I know of.
Do any of you feel like dying?
You have done all you can do in this life time, and your life is not getting any better. No sunshine on the horizon? Having great difficulty accepting the fact that it will not ever, get any better? The struggle to survive isn’t worth it, any longer?
I am not talking about suicide. I am talking feeling despondent, having to give up hope, having to come to terms that that’s the way it was, IS, and likely will be, for a very long time to come.
Otherwise all is well. Family is good. Friends, I see them regularly.
But I can’t make it. The struggle seems to be worth less and less to make it. And by ‘making it’, I mean living.
It is beyond feeling hopeless. There is nothing, but nothing in front of me. struggle as I do to feel better, only to slowly realise that there is NO BETTER.
I really don’t want to feel these feelings, as I am in them 24/7 already. Does it really mean that I have felt this shitty all my life, but would not concede to the utter hopelessness? Despair?
Somebody tell me that I am wrong and there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hah?
Lately, all I want to do is sleep. Find life overwhelming. Although I think at times of doing something with my life, I quickly dismiss it, as I already know that it will lead to nowhere, no pleasure, no satisfaction, no sense of accomplishment.
Is feeling my pain the only way to live? How do I give up? When that means dying.
Oh well. Either way, there isn’t far to go. After all I am past my sixty nine’s birthday.
And to think that I don’t even know what to ask for. What sort of help would help me. I suppose it’s like asking a baby, what do you want, when you are crying? Or even earlier. Need help to make it, but I don’t have the wherewithal how to.
Nice talking to you all. Wish you a good life. You, the primal warriors.
Tom
Tom: My Jimbo is still putting up with me … don’t ask me why, cos I don’t really know. As for the blog going quiet for a while, I don’t think there is any other reason than there seems nothing to talk about by anyone. I think this a characteristic of blogs and blogging from time to time.
Yes I am one of those that thinks periodically about dying especially now I’m getting way up there at 83. It’s not that I want to die, but it always a posibility and unpredictable. I personally am not worried about death, but I really hope that when it is about to happen it is quick and relatively painless. But then I think that is the way most would want it.
On the question of despair and depression: the way I discovered how to deal with it for, me was if I was unable to sink into that feeling that the despair or depression was bringing up, then I resorted to crying about my inabilty to get into it. That did not necessarily bring to the total old feeling, but it did give me respite into the despair and/or depression. Slowly over thime it would come to me.
I am not suggesting that is the way it should be for others … only to let the bloggers know that is my way. Seemingly it works for me.
Jack
But Tom: To me; that’s it … call for help. do it long … and loud …. and often.
Jack
Tom, Sometimes I feel really down, but not quite like wanting to die. My job is very boring and easy. Very little stimulation and satisfaction coming from that. I don’t see how to easily fix that. I do enjoy my free time for the most part, however. I often still feel blocked from fully enjoying positive feelings and connecting with people, but that’s improving little by little. The people around me, family and friends help keep me going. It’s not the answer, and I don’t know what is, but Tom does it help any that your family and friends love you and want you around ? ..for all your good qualities. Phil
Hi Tom. I know you cannot place me; fear not your memory because we have not met. I’ve not had formal therapy. I’ve sort of glommed onto this family like in the play, “The Man who came to Dinner”; in that he never leaves. I am not sure how to help with your dilemma . I think we are all impatient when it comes to this therapy or feelings.
I wonder at times if I will ever be through with the feeling that my mom did not like me the last 20 years of her life. That I felt inadequate and bought the idea I was less of a person.
It’s ironic that what sustained me In those feelings was that she was good to me growing up. So I guess I was just a convenient target for her pain in her old age. I try less and less to get to the hurt feelings, but they will come up a little every day and I acknowledge it and go on. Thanks for asking about all of us.
S
Hi Tom, As a matter of fact, yes, news about my brother who had a couple of strokes recently. This week, a doctor ordered more phys. therapy for him. They have a room down in the basement at Kaiser, they gave him a new walker, and he was able to do 4 laps with it, the therapist said that was really good, much better than he expected, and for sure, he believes my brother will walk again. He learned a new way of getting himself up from his wheelchair, leaning forward a bit more, and got several other new exercises to do on his own. He is also able to use the treadmill at home that they acquired when someone threw it out, and his therapist wants him to work up to 20 min. per day on it. My brother is clearly excited about all this.
He is also encouraged by a neighbor on our street, who finally started walking again, after being in a wheelchair for a year after a stroke. Will keep you all posted as things progress.
You sound like you feel so hollow, Tom. I feel sad for you.
I just recently got home from a 15 hour work day. One more like that left to do, probably early next week.
PS
Just to brighten my day, yesterday was Yom Kipur. In the Jewish religion, which I know you all closely follow, you go to the Synagogue. After all, it is the Day Of Atonement.
I didn’t go. I rarely go to the Synagogue. After all, I am secular. There is no God.
But I did think of going out to the cemetery and visit my mum’s, dad’s and grandma’s graves. I felt somehow drawn to go. But then I put a stop to me going out there.
Do I need to feel this incredible sense of loss, again? Do I have to walk from grave to grave, like a dog, looking for food? Soul food? Is this all I am going to get? The barren lids of the graves? No warmth? No reaching out to me? No holding me? No looking into my eyes?
Do I have to die feeling this incredibly deprived?
Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!! Reach out to me!!!!!!!!!!!!Hold me!!!!!!!!!!!!Look into my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Make me feel wanted………..OK? Give me some feelings of warmth, OK?
Who am I talking to?
And as I am writing to you, I feel drawn to going out to the cemetery. That’s all there is. there is no more.
Tom
Hey Tom,
Glad you wrote here. I think what you are doing right now sounds so good – being honest, reaching out, feeling what you can. I know a few people who are always ‘on the run’ – searching, placating, distracting. Guess its the hard core stuff you are addressing…
Hope you can enjoy what you can!
ox L.
> Tom,
> nice to hear from you, nice you ask us about our particular things, and sorry to hear you have to deal continuously with these sad feelings of unmet need.
> I relate to feeling like ‘I could as well die’, or even ‘I want to die’ occasionally..
>
> lately I feel a tendency to get depressed, there is so much hardship in my life, with the visual and hearing disability, which increases the feelings of isolaition and loneliness..
>
> and mum getting older and frailer but still stubborn does not help, although she is a tiny bit easier than before with the medication, and safely back in her house again now..
> I encourage her to go for tea in the cafetaria of the nursing home, which she does, as she has some old time acauaintaces there.
> I want her to get used to it, and to start regarding it as a nice place to be..
>
> today for the very first time I have a cleaning man in my own place, a Belgian from a Turkish background, who seems fairly ok, he does like cats, so that is important to start with..
>
> it feels difficult to let him do things his way in my bathrom and kitchen right now, after a cofee and a chat and showing him around..
> it demands trust to let someone fuss around and hopefully he does what I asked him and puts my stuff back in its exact spot so I can find my things again..
> it is a bit scary but also useful, I asked him to remove some small curtains so I can wash them, and right now going into the kitchen I noticed he is really giving the sinks and tubs there a thorgough clean with different products, so it is nice to get the place done thoroughly bit by bit.
> he only comes for two hours every two weeks, so we can do it in small bits, as I do my usual cleaning anyway, and have him to do the corners and hard to get to spots etc..
>
> will have to get used to him more, as it is really letting someone into your private space, much hmore than my household help and assistant who are always right by my side to do the shopping and stuff like that.
> now I hand over some rooms to him, a stranger, and let him clean it up, hopefully..
> it is not really that dirty at all, but it gets too much bit by bit to keep it as clean as I like it to be myself, with all the rest I want to do, like writing this comment..
>
> so well, let’s hope for the best, and specially that my cats don’t get out in
> to the stairway or don’t get in touch with toxic cleaning products..
>
> ha, it is hard for me to give that amount of control out of my hands so fast, I have done a cleaning job myself for a living at some former stages in my life, and you really get faced with very peersonal stuff of your clients automatically..
> I do take care to put things out of sight that I do not want him to run into..
> oh well, kind of a luxury problem, isn’t it, and actually it is nice to have someone over as well, even at 8 in the morning..
>
> to come back to your feelings Tom, I reflected on it a bit, as I also often feel down and depressed and scared and needy and what is the use, who long will I still be here and what is there to expect?
> what is the use of therapy??
> but then I still cannot deny the deeper level of consciousness and access to my feelings is worth it, is also worth paying the price i
> of being more sensitive to the present sore spots in my life…
>
> would not want to trade it for the partial automatic pilot I o
>
> once was, driven by my act outs…
>
> sigh, smiley..
> M
> I feel good about my housecleaning helper. he is calm, not fast but thorough and sees what needs to be done. and very important, he likes cats!
> feels good to have someone check out and clean the bits I ‘overlook’..
> just the right amount of help, the minimum, 2 times 2 hours a month, from 8 am till 10 am, so I am up even earlier and by ten a whole lot has been done already..
>
> seems to make me feel more at ease, to diminish my fear level somehow a little.
> strange how small things like that have that kind of impact.
> somehow a person you pay feels also more safe, it is a very straightforward relationship without the risk of losing when the person, like in a friendship, loses interest. that is a big one for me, deeply rooted in the distance my dad used to keep me at, sometimes giving me a little, then turning away or even making me feel something was wrong with me.
>
> always the feeling of not deserving a friendship lurks in the back of my mind, also making it hard to initiate new contacts..
>
> it used to be way much worse, but things like that can never be entirely reset I guess, only softened..
>
> plan to go dancing this weekend, has been almost a year by now since I went the last time!
> M
Brave of you to go dancing, Margaret, after not doing it for a year.
Hi
Nice to hear back from all of you, including you,Leslie. I feel bad that I haven’t addressed you in my posting above. Not that I don’t think of you and Barry.
I appreciate the feedback. But not quite sure what to do with it and all your good intentions.
I am a baby. I am distressed. I am sending signals out that I am not happy about something/s. But I am too young to formulate and ask for what I may need or want.
Oh well. I suppose that’s my passage through the Primal Labyrinth.
I am heading off shortly to visit my 92 year old girlfriend,my client, she is a doll.
Because off her, I got an award. A volunteer’s award.
It is amazing the many ways people can hurt me. Why give anything to me? I am just doing what anyone else would do, if encouraged by none other, than you know who, yes, Barry B.
There are times when I get resentful of giving, being there for others. Who knows, the time may come, when I will be cuddled and swaddled in a way to bring me peace finally.
I am not sure where am I going with all this. After all, all I have to do is ‘feel” the deprivation, right? And then all will be good.
But I tell myself……..Tom !!!!! Knuckle down and feel the “feeling”. Be a good boy. Do as you are told. Stop theorising. Stop waffling on. Just do it.
Do what? What should I ask for? What will finally give me surcease? Peace? What?
Why am I so stupid and stop fighting the “feeling”? Why? Why haven’t I learned after all these years how to be a ‘feeling man’?
It drives me crazy. I do not know where to go, who to go to, and what to ask for.
Somebody!!!!!!!!! Please help!!!!!!!!
Tom
Hi
I just feel so lonely.
Why does it feel that nobody is there for me? It just doesn’t make any sense.
Tom
Tom: Since you asked the question I took the question upon myself. I hope my resonse doesn’t offend you.
“Why does it feel that nobody is there for me? ”
My take is the question is really “Why does it feel that nobody WAS there for me? ”
Maybe you already know this, so forgive me if I’m stating what is obvious to you.
Jack
Hi Jack
I am not offended.
It feels like both in the past and the present, that nobody is there, nobody was there.
Unbelievably enough, in it’s truest sense, there were and are people around me all the time.
And that’s what makes me feel crazy.
During and after my birth, my father, grandma and my nanny were around. But it doesn’t make up for a physical connection that my mum wasn’t able to provide me. Not then, not during my childhood, nor in my young adult life.
She did say to me a couple of months before she died, that she wishes she was more there for me. She wished she wouldn’t have listened to ‘others’. I interpreted her referring to my dad.
She was too young, straight after the war, to have me. She was only eighteen. A baby herself.
Tom
> Tom,
> maybe you do not have to search deeper for where the ‘real’ feeling lays, maybe your feeling then was something like ‘I cannot give up! something is bound to come my way, have to stick it out until then..’, I mean, in order to survive, at that age it simply seems the only way, I am not clear about this it is just something that struck me as a possibility, don’t search for the feeling, it is right there, you seem to be in it all the time, sadly enough some kind of endless torturous wait for something that never came..
> I hope you can focus on both things at the time, the good and the painful.
> you do sound glad when you talk about your old girlfriend!
>
> affectionately, M
> thanks Larry,
> your comment kind of shifted my view on going dancing (or not) from feeling bad about myself for being a coward if I wouldn’t to seeing it does indeed take some bravery to go.
> I hope i can, some kind of flu bug is trying to get hold of me seemingly..
>
> otherwise things are relatively ok, mum at home again, and kittens grow and flourish..
> Plukkie, the one that used to be the smallest and a bit sickly, has grown into a big strong young cat, and Pluche, the one who used to be the biggest, is now much smaller than his brother, and has a really soft silky fur and a very sweet character. his brother has a thick fur, and likes to playfight using his claws and teeth as much as can still be regarded as acceptable by me and by his brother, but Pluche is very ‘soft pawed and gentle.
> I adore them and am proud of them, smiley!
> M
BOARDING SCHOOL SURVIVOR
Ive been out picking blackberries, and noticed that I was having a dialogue going on in my head… the gist of which was – this is something familiar I used to do with my mum, but I’m re-creating my childhood, along with wandering about in green spaces, sometimes wanting a dog, a house with a large garden, all things that felt ok when I was little..what re-creations are right and which are wrong?
When my brain starts like this, I’ve come to realise that simply painful feelings are there,.
There was more in the dialogue, because I’m processing how to cope as an adult with the effects of being sent away to boarding school.
The first day was bewildering, can you imagine that you are taken away from all thats familiar, and Dumped in a strange mansion with masses of strangers?. There is a school trunk to unpack, with all the new clothes, and 52 hankies, and sheets etc – all displaying name tapes, jointly sewed on by my grandmother and mother, but I’m in shock and cannot feel anything.
I have to adjust quickly to survive, new sleeping and bathing arrangements (no privacy), mealtimes, lessons, all governed by bells ringing, and a stern matron, and stern spinster staff.
There is nothing and no-one in place to tell ANYTHING personal to, it is frowned upon to show any sadness, or hatred for the place, .. small wonder I went quiet – I had to. I didn’t see my parents for 13 weeks at a time. They were like strangers to see them again, I lost my trust, I learned to hide my feelings of NEVER wanting to go back to school, from them, because I was afraid Id lose their love (though -what love? as they’d sent me away, they didn’t want me)
Unpacking and then packing tainted “the hols”, and home was never the same any more..my parents were like strangers, and I went into puberty disconnected from them, and realised they didn’t know who I was at all. But now I realise that in my early home life that was true too..
I still don’t know what feels like home…Barry asked me a while ago..and all I could say was that I liked the feeling of coming back to my flat here after being away, and felt more “at home” at where I stay in LA, because he and Gretch are not far away, and some friends I grew up with thru regular therapy groups there.
I’m in a state where I don’t feel I have a home, and belonging has more meaning at retreats as its like boarding school, where I was forced to live 9 months out of twelve for seven years, and therefore school was the more “normal” familiarity. The only other scenario where I had some feeling of home was when I was married. I don’t have that any more. I join a tennis club, (familiar because I played tennis from very early, and my Mum played tennis for the county) but also because that also reflects what I was taught earlier..rules/team spirit, something to attach to…
Is this recreating and wrong?
I’m lonely, in spite of 30 tennis acquaintances. I worry I am incapable of really being close to anyone.
After DECADES, it still feels impossible to feel settled.
I’m aware that I want “people” (i.e. parents!) you… to understand me… more re-creating!
I want to integrate all the above to feel better about me, my life.
Well, Ive talked myself away from feeling, tho I know I’m in pain as I reflect and write.
Jo: I don’t feel you talked yourself out of the feeling. I felt you talked/wrote yourself right into it.
That such a sad story. It touched me Jo. That whole craziness of English boarding schools … schools are bad enough, but boarding schools … and at such a young and vulnerable age …Geezus.
I feel that all teachers at all schools should have some rudimentary understanding of Primal therapy or at least understand the complete cruelty of taking children out of what they are familiar with until such times as the child themselves, decide they want to go and learn something. Something that they the child wants to learn. Not someone else idea of what they should learn.
Jack
Jack, thank you for your empathy.
I hope it isn’t the case that you talked yourself away from a feeling, Jo, but more likely that you made the feeling more real for yourself by reflecting and writing about it.
I think recreating is unavoidable, and we can take advantage of it and learn as you are by recognizing it and sensing the pain that is driving it. Then we have the choice to recreate and bypass the pain, or stop the recreating and open to the pain. I don’t think there is a right or wrong about it, so much as a desire to open to the pain and heal when feeling ready.
I’m learning about you from what you wrote, and getting more insight into how the damage happened, and through your writing getting more of am inkling of how the damage happened in me and what I’m running from. Your writing helps. Thanks.
Jo, Being sent to boarding school seems like torture, hard for me to imagine.Going to public school, especially middle school was hard enough for me,but I went home in the afternoons, of course.I also think that recreating is unavoidable. Maybe it’s part of our natural processof trying to relive things internally so as to be done with them for good.I never would send my own kids away like that. Maybe, partly for my own selfishreasons of loving them and wanting them around. But they would never haveasked for such a thing, not even a summer camp.Was this an inevitable thing being sent away like that? Was there discussions aboutit or some possibility that you wouldn’t go? Phil
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:12:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
So good to hear from you Jo. Your account is so well written and painful to imagine. That early betrayal being so devastating and life altering.
Its such a sweet, innocent time in childhood to be sent away somewhere else just as your world would be taking shape.
I was wondering if you had siblings – and if so did any join you @ school?
Take care Jo – and hope you can continue to do what you enjoy and write here :).
ox L.
Larry, Phil, Leslie, your responses are painful to receive and mean alot. 😊
I’m glad what I wrote helps you Larry…
Phil, in England there exists an ancient tradition of sending children away. Based on an avoidence of more wealthy people to deal with the messy, noisy, demanding babies and children and hand it all over to others…nannies servants and then boarding schools, where the child is made into an ‘accomplished’ adult as quickly as possible.
At seven years old, in the early ’50’s, raising children was all about parents and teachers being directive, no discussion or choices, no argument from children. In my family (father subject to the same tradition) feelings were quashed, avoided, negated, warped and misshapen into punishment and control with disapproving facial expressions. These were the worst aspects.
Leslie, your gentleness makes me cry again ☺️ ..
Boarding schools in those days were same sex schools, so my older brother disappeared out of my life suddenly at 5 or 6, being sent away to his school. He did not fair well there. He’s been angry with me since I was born. He went into further institutional life -the army- and then the Australian army, having emigrated to Australia about 50 years ago. Not someone with whom I’m close to!
Hi Jo
I can’t imagine what it would be like to be separated from your parents and siblings at such a tender age.
It’s beyond belief.
And not seeing your parents for three months at a time. It’s brutal.
I see my son generally once a week, and it isn’t often enough. And he is 41 years old. When he travels, I fret day and night. Worry about him. Worry about his safety. I text message him. Tell him I am thinking of him and I miss him.
How incredibly painful.
Tom
Tom, yes, painful…yet thank goodness I’ve been able to have the PI therapeutic help to access what’s been below the veneer.
Jo,What a terrible thing to have to go through. What a damaging tradition, to sendchildren away like that, and all the rest of it.Phil
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 07:03:24 +0000
To: phiban@msn.com
Phil, yes, terrible…
The tradition is still there, big time, and in the 50’s there began to be the nouveau riche sending their children away for status. The government is full of people who went to elite boarding schools. I.e. It is still a nuisance for many many parents to have their children at home.
> Jo,
> it is such a sad story.
> I remember how, when I was only put in an institute for a few days already my world seemed to be all wrong all of a sudden. I was like partly on hold, the biggest part of me only waiting to be with my mom again, the rest just going through the motions in the world that turned ugly and wrong, full of strangers.
> I was shocked at reading about the 13 weeks you had to be there, it must have been so very devastating, and to have to go there again and again.
> you sound very hard on yourself.
> recreating what was good like picking blackberries seems fine, specially as you were able to detect the old feeling that was stirred. maybe we can enjoy most those few things that were good when we were young..
> did you manage to get some friends there that helped a little to endure the place?
> M
Margaret,
I only recall being in shock that first day, and probably was for a year.. One got to know others obviously, but friendships were fraught with competitiveness, cattiness, bullying etc, we all had to change ourselves rapidly to survive. Basically those first years were HORRIBLE. I had more ‘fun’ after age 12 ish.
Margaret, you make a good description of how it felt for you..though being on hold was the biggest part for me…I wasn’t allowed to feel the raw pain ever…not until therapy! It’s unbelievable!
How long were you in an institution, and why?
> Jo,
> for a period of weeks at the age of two, when my mom had to go to have an operation.
> I have no memories of that, apart from all the crying that pours out and the feelings of being lost and scared.
>
> then in the following years my mom worked at the intsitute she grew up in and occasionally had to sleep in there, and I was mostly put in a ‘club’, under the stern supervision of a bitter woman who referred to me literally as ‘the outsider’ for still having my mom coming by at some point.
>
> I remember sleeping on a big dorm, waking up after having wet my bed, not daring to go to where I knew my mom was.
> small consolation was at least with me they did not dare to put me in the middle of the playground with my wet sheet, or wet underpants, on top of my head, as they often did with other kids..
>
> suddenly feel like crying..
> sometimes I was in my mom’s group, had to call her ‘madame Jeannot’ then..
>
> I also remember not wanting to eat my soup at lunchtime, and they simply put the rest of my food in the soup, which I also refused to eat.
> don’t know if they served it again to me that evening, it seems possible.
>
> my mom would interfere if she found out stuff, and go to complain, but well, what can I say..
> my brother was put in another ‘club’, but soon had to go to another school for being a boy..
> so I got a little taste of institutional life, and the bitterness of the women working there , and I hate to imagine how it must have been for you.
> you must have had a strong real little flame of your own spirit inside of you to come out the person that you are with all your qualities after experiences like that.
> I hope you find lots of things to enjoy, picking blackberries sounds nice to me to start with..
> M
Margaret, you experienced some harsh conditions – I’m not surprised you felt lost and scared; and that especially unbearable feeling to wet the bed and all the shame that goes with that. (I know)
Thanks also for you good wishes for me.. I do have the capacity to enjoy things…though that all flies out the window when feelings get triggered!
The Ikettes I’m Blue
Who can write this stuff? WOW!
(I’m blue ue ue ue ue ue ue blue be doo be doo be doo)
Gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong yeah
(I wanna tell a all you people
(I dropped a penny in the well wished that you would come back soon)
I couldn’t believe what I heard
(A fortune teller told me my love with you was through)
I hope her reading was wrong
(I hope she was wrong ’cause you been gone too long from home)
WHY THIS MAKES ME SAD? 1961, BIG IJPHEAVAL, ,MOVED FROM HOLLYWOOD TO LONG BEACH AND MY WORLD WAS DESTROYED. OF COURSE THIS SONG WAS PROBABLY PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND ON SOME RADIO, NOT SURE WHOSE, SEEING IMAGE OF MY YOUNG AUNT DRIVING. I ESCAPE FROM THIS FEELING BY TYPING THIS. DUMB ASS. SUPPOSED TO BE PAYING BILLS. TIRED OF PAYING BILLS.
cryed a little.seeing just how massive this feeling is. don’t know what i can do with it. still looking for mommy
but it’s all gone now buddy. those days and any hope of repair is decades-gone.
what i needed then (and now) is comfort. unfortunately, this massive event makes me scurry away from any hint of comfort.
A loss like that makes you walk around like doctor zhivago as he gets a heart attack and chokes up having tried to catch up with Lara his long-lost love. I walk around like that every minute. See the hotel in Hollywood, the fig tree in our yard, the long freeway ride to Long Beach, grey concrete. Lost my uncle my aunt my 3rd grade girlfriend and other friends. No more boyclub, hanging out, making stuff. No more walks with aunt elsie and Susie the Chihuahua. I am blue. What a heart attack.
Plus it mirrored the loss of mommy at age 1 ½, cementing my fate. If only someone could have told me earlier why I was such a cripple. But no one said much of anything. It was all a mystery.
takes my breath away. full-moonish in strength.
> just reading a new book about our universe, really fascinating.
> for example when you make a round with your index finger and thumb, as big like say a dollar coin, and look through it to a seemingly black spot of the night sky, in that same area a good telescope can detect about a 100.000 galaxies, each containing billions of stars..
> possibly at about 10 billion lightyears away!
>
> our own galaxy is part of a large cluster of galaxies, the Virgo cluster, with distances that also go around 60 million lightyears, forgot whether to its center or something similar..
>
> fascinating, literally mindopening, those distances and all the rest!
>
> Otto, I am not quite clear about whether you refer to a recent event in your comments or whether you talk in a more general way about what you feel.
> did something happen recently?
> M
> another complication with my mom..
> now her landline is out of order, which took me a while to find out, at first we all were concerned as she did not answer the phone.
> I did hesitate but did not take a taxi to ride up there that evening, and waited until the nurse would come by there the next morning, as my mom is physically not too bad really, and sometimes simply does not hear the phone..
> the nurse let me know the phone said there was no line available, and the company had to come by.
> a long story short, they came but have to come again next week, still no landline.
> mom seems to have a problem now using her cellphone, does not pick it up and does not call with it either, for whatever reason..
>
> this morning I had her on the cellphone though, when the nurse was there, and told her she could come stay over at my place for a few days if she wanted, as her television also risks failing, same connection that is bad, and then the phone problem..
> she said no at first, and then she’d give it some thought…
>
> rationally I have al kind of ‘understanding’ reasons and explanations, but still it hurts she rather stays there, no phone, maybe no tv, than to come and stay just a few days with me and the cats..
>
> some mothers might be thrilled to have a few days together..
>
> feels lonely, bit rejected..
> M
> e the more time goes by, the more I feel myself becoming indignified about the ex director of the volkswagen group being rewarded by a 30 million Euro ‘dismission premium’ after cheating on an enormous scale, deceiving not only his clients, but the whole population by polluting the air etc.
>
> he should be in jail, and not on top of all the mountains of money he already made, receive a golden handshake of for f.. sake 30 millions!!!!
>
> it is obscene, a slap in the face and it seems to get so little attention.
>
> another matter of concern and indignation is subject of a documentary tomorrow, the levels of des-hormone and other hormonelike substances in the environment, still, despite numerous tests on animals proving their toxicity and desastrous impact on fertility and sexual development.
>
> money money money and power,politicians not daring to take a strong stand because of those precious votes and gifts of the wealthy..
> ha!
> M
Margaret, I feel the same way about the Volkswagen company. I want to hear about criminal prosecutionsfor those responsible, not just monetary penalties. I doubt I would consider buying a Volkswagen in the future.This is why we need very strong regulations to prevent destruction of the environmentand our health by greedy businessmen. I recently bought a used Toyota Prius which I’mvery happy with. I hope the electric motor and gas efficiency are real and not somescam designed by engineers to fool customers.Phil
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:45:43 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Margaret: Yep! Money … it facilitates greed and the more we keep this system going, enmeshed in money, the longer we’ll continues with an ever growing divide between the haves and the have nots. The solution is so fucking simple … yet we are so fucking afraid to get our heads round the simplicy, life would be without it. Oh! yeah, I’m fully aware that most SPECULATE that without it, we’d be running around killing one another … little realizing that with it (money), that is exactly what we are doing, and will continue to do.
It takes, what I deem “a conceptual leap”, something few are prepared to do, to SPECULATE the very opposite of what currently exist. Just tweaking this supidity did not, nor ever will, resolve the matter, but as we see the progression of our civilization we just keep the “merry going round”, for ever spinning faster and faster until we spin out of total control. If we are’nt already there
Such a simple solution … and yet, most refuse to even contemplate it. It’s the same with guns. Whilst they are permitted and manufactured, we’ll continue to use these instuments (toys) as a convenient way to kill one another. School shootings demonstrates this very factor
My feeling (for what it’s worth), Ban guns and abolish money.
I suspect I’ll continue to be considered a madman … which I am, whereas the only difference between me and the rest, I KNOW I am, whereas the rest are busy trying to prove they are not.
Ah well !!!!! Jack
Sure agree with you Jack about the gun situation. Need a law for banning the future selling of guns, at the very least. Does every city have to have a shooting calamity before there is a consensus to stop sales? Obama knows he has to appeal to the common people because lobbyists NRA and ultra conservatives have a strangle-hold on congress, who are inert to act. It’s a scary time.
I’ll probably (be made to ) regret this but I do find it fascinating. What if so much of what we have been told is not true………………..?
Start with religion … the only thing you can reallky know is:- what you FEEL … the rest is always questionable.
Jack
Permit me to live up to your expectaions. You follow this comment by a clip from a holcause denier … which suggest, to me, the whole point about this comment of yours is to demonstrate YOUR feeling that the holocaust did not take place; or leastways, not to the extent that it has been documented. Why did you not say this outright and directly in your post, instead of hinting by posting the clip.
If you object to Judaism as a religion then make it clear that that is your jibe. If it is that you object to the Jewsh culture, then state likewise OR, if it is that you are bothered by Jews (in your opinion) making too big an issue out of the holocaust; then state that.
If you will, either or all of the above, then we will know where you stand. As things stand, I, for one, am not sure where you are at with this whole business of the holocaust.
This is another factor of what Thuless describes as crooked thinking. It seems you are reluctant to state fully. whats bugging you.
There!!!! your expectation has been realized.
Jack
“What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” Good! I’m glad to see you questioning a moron like Holocaust denier Nick Kollerstrom
I presume this was written by Gretchen (or Barry) It is beyond me why you would call this man a ‘moron’. Not that I know much about him he was ‘recommended’ to me by someone I respect a lot. And he has written some seemingly well thought of books on many different ‘scientific’ topics. Far from a moron if you would even do a small bit of homework.
But I was thinking about this today and if I was Jewish and I were to find out that the whole gassing stories of my peoploe were not true at all………………..I imagined myself crying………….crying with happiness and relief. I am sure you have read about say a relative or someone you love dying and the person surviving is very anxious to know that they died in comfort or at least not is some great horror and pain. What seems/feels real weird to me is why would you WANT that ‘story’ to be true. What purpose does it serve to feel your people were gassed, tortured etc
It seems odd to say the least and un-fortunately the way I see it sets up for endless non-forgiving and retribution of all kinds. And the ‘Holocaust’ has been used for exactly that purpose – no matter the suffering NOW of all kinds of innocents in the Middle East it is ‘justified’ by what happened THEN (supposedly). Isn’t that a kind of classic primal fuck up and the fact you react in this way suggests a lot to me. A lot of ‘un-resolved’ hatred and mis-understanding but I guess that keeps ‘psycho-therapy’ going on forever and ever……………….Amen!
BTW the Irish people had their own ‘holocaust’ the Famine and I have read a book about it recently. And it seems so strange the question of being a “Famine Denier” never occur ed to me or it seems to anyone else. The Famine I try to find out what I can about it to ‘believe’ in the Famine almost as a ‘religion’ seems so silly and so crazy. My question is why does this ‘belief’ do for you, why would it not make you feel good to find out maybe 200 to 300 thousand died not 6 million.And that they died of disease and starvation mostly and starvation that was mostly caused by Allied bombing? And this is not just a ‘story’ but something well explained and logically quite understandable as by Mr Kollerstrom.
One thing for sure is I have ordered his book and will read it avidly and thank God I have reached a stage in my life where I have the self confidence to be able to distinguish a so called ‘moron’ or not – regardless of what those in ‘authority’ say. To me by this remark their so called ‘authority’ has just gotten a bit lower.
And NO! sarcasm aside when I say “What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” I am NOT referring to Mr Kollerstrom as I am sure you know
Some quotes:-
1) “It is beyond me why you would call this man a ‘moron’” It’s seems obvious to me, that it’s ALL beyond you.
2) “he was ‘recommended’ to me by someone I respect a lot.” Who????
3) “But I was thinking about this today and if I was Jewish and I were to find out that the whole gassing stories of my people were not true at all………………..I imagined myself crying………….crying with happiness and relief.” What (if you were Jewish) would you do if you found out it WAS true?????
4) “What purpose does it serve to feel your people were gassed, tortured etc
It seems odd to say the least and unfortunately the way I see it sets up for endless non-forgiving” I suspect deep grief, but perhaps it’s a feeling you are not cognizant of … Yeah!!!
5) “BTW the Irish people had their own ‘holocaust’ the Famine ” Are you sure this one is true … but not any others!!!
6) “My question is why [what] does this ‘belief’ do for you, ” Why, rather than answer questions put to you, you perpetually seem to dodge them? Answer the question for fuck’s sake!!!
7) “What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” Including the the Irish holocaust and the stories emanating out of the middle east Yeah!!!!
8) “and thank God I have reached a stage in my life ” Ah!! so now we know you are thankful to YOUR god. Seemingly it took all of 63 years to get to this point.
9) “What if so much of what we have been told is not true…..” You seem to spend a lot of time being concerned about what you were/are told/read. What if all of it is a crock of shit. Geeze … you’d them be washed right down the sewer Yeah!?????
Jack
Patrick, Sorry that was me, I thought I put a G. at the bottom. I would never say someone was a moron unless I had done my homework and I know exactly who Kollerstrom is. Because I am entitled to my opinion I say he is a sad little fool who has been discredited multiple times. You should indeed read his book and beware of reccommendations as often people have an agenda and look for evidence later. You might also want to look up this genuis’s views on a few other subjects. The ” Paul ( McCartney ) is dead ” hoax at the height of the Beatles fame, well according to Kollerstrom yes, in fact , Paul is dead – he calls it the Paul vs Faul theory. According to him Saddam Hussein is alive and well and we never actually landed on the moon. Oh and the planes on 911 well he is convinced they were flown by Jews . Not to mention the London bombings – also the Jews! I’m not interested in a debate about another pathetic nazi so read or believe what you want. I do have a question however. I know you go on the Paleo blog, did you post this link there as well? If not why not? Gretchen
Gretchen – that’s OK I guess since you usually put your initial at least on there I sort of figured it was Barry. I would have been more ‘friendly’ it I thought it was you……………that said it seems you have done a lot of ‘homework’ on this guy and I presume just today, I imagine you were not aware of him before.
I give you that ‘out’ that you did it in a hurry well now since you wrote I have been doing my ‘homework’ as best as I can and here is what I came up with. Below are 3 links and my comments on them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1XMVho4wR4 one thing about Kollerstrom (K.) is he hangs out a bit with some semi-respectable people. What I mean is here we have 2 guys promoting the idea that we did not go to the moon. But listen carefully K. resists them over and over again about that while admitting some oddities. At the end they ask for a vote yes or no and he votes YES!. So Gretchen I would have to say you got that wrong even if he does at least seem to consider the idea (an open mind I suppose!)
The thing about Paul McCartney dying is them ‘reviewing’ a book. Nothing that he wrote about but the does seem to feel comfortable with the idea……………..I would not agree with that but what do I know? What do any of us know? But this seems pretty ‘fringy’ and I wish he would not waste his time on trivia like that. But really it’s ‘gossip’ about a book someone else wrote. This book claims Paul died in 1966…………who knows I don’t believe it but wernt they still ‘teeny boppers’ at that time, if Justin Bieber was ‘replaced’ would any of us be the wiser or would we care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P99i0w88XFY this is more holocaust stuff with a guy called Jim Fetzer, Fetzer seems a bona fide ‘conspiracy’ guy and personally I don’t like that kind of mindset or approach. He holds Fetzer back quite a bit but it is mostly about his own book which as I say I cannot wait to read. Then Fetzer goes on about 9/11 and again K. is skeptical and a bit reserved about a lot of what Fetzer says. Having said all that 9/11 IS a bit strange at least I think so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayhah51ZEe8 Fetzer is saying Saddam had a double (we know that) and that Saddam was killed early in the war and the guy they executed later was a double. So again Gretchen you seem to have got that wrong he is NOT saying Saddam is still alive he is agreeing with Fetzer the Saddam very likely had died earlier than we were told. But even that he questions a bit. K is just asking listening but is sympathetic because of the whole ‘criminal nature’ of the invasion, he even questions the motives of the ‘double’ Then they ‘gossip’ about Bin Laden by Fetzer again K is mostly curious and somewhat skeptical and asking questions not really having a strong position on it. But yes he is skeptical about Osama and why shouldn’t he be Osama WAS a CIA ‘asset’ in the 1980;s the ‘truth of 9/11 is pretty hard to really get to the bottom of it Then there is more good stuff about the holocaust after 30 mins mark
So not to nit pick too much Gretchen you got at least 2 things quite wrong there…………….so my ‘verdict’ on the guy now is he hangs around with some ‘wacky’ characters but I would consider him quite smart and a person with integrity. But I will say more when I have read his book
About the ‘paleo’ blog the only blog I participate a bit is in Dr Kruse’s blog. And funnily enough it was a guy who lives in France who is on that blog who referred me to Kollerstrom. So I might talk about it there but that is more of a ‘health’ site at the moment I am writing to this guy in France ‘on the side’ about this stuff. While on that subject it is AGAINST THE LAW to ‘deny the holocaust’ in France and Germany. Think about that and why that might be! K says the only time ‘evidence’ is allowed in those countries is at trials just before they find you guilty! When I was in Ireland last Summer they were talking about making that law apply all over Europe including Ireland. Can you imagine maybe me writing stuff about this living in Ireland and here come a knock on the door!
They way I see this shaping up……………it’s a bit like Scientology they were able to intimidate and hound their critics until the internet make it impossible to control this may happen slowly with the ‘holocaust denial’ thing………………we will see or maybe it will son be against the law EVERYWHERE. It is still ‘legal’ in the US and the UK I have checked…
BTW something to think about………………K. says that Germany under Hitler had about 3.1 million Jews living there, now 6 million died!!…………….but in the meantime 6 million MORE have made claims as being ‘holocaust survivors’ of which 4 million have been paid. If you can make those numbers add up you put Einstein to shame………….this almost seem too easy this ‘story’ makes little or no sense………….
For someone that was for ever going on about “conspiracy theorists”, when I knew you; you take the ‘biscuit’
Your long winded attempt (as I see it) to demonstrate your point, I found very unconvincing.
Don’t know what others think … but I suspect you are not gaining any friends here.
Meantime, keep it up … I’m having fun … poking you.
Jack
Gretchen – it is pretty clear that “Holocaust Belief” serves a big and very unfortunate function in the ‘real world’ IMO it has been and is being ‘used’ for devilish purposes so we see Netanyahu (Israeli PM) at the UN without seemingly a trace of concern or God forbid ‘guilt’ about his deliberate wrecking of country after country. He just wants MORE wrecking and is seemingly very unhappy we are not wrecking Iran right now. Not enough destruction for him yet. So that was the main actually the only reason I want to check into the holocaust. I have taken it as given forever why would I not but if you see something year after year being used for destructive purposes and used to start more and more wars well I think let me look into this a bit…………………I have a friend who has talked about this stuff for years and I was always like ‘don’t go there’ this is pointless and I am sure ‘history’ is not being that distorted. So really now by accident I find myself interested in it and will for a start definitely read Kollerstrom’s book which should arrive in a week or two.
But and I am being quite serious here Gretchen can you tell me why you would immediately and strongly resist even a discussion of the subject. You are a smart person and have of course the ‘primal’ orientation so what does it do for you to either ‘believe’ or ‘not believe’ or maybe more to the point not have a position but have a desire to find out what actually happened? Why is that so verboten? I don’t know if you saw the movie last Winter about the British breaking the German codes “The Imitation Game” about Alan Turing who actually did that. Anyway that’s what Kollerstrom is referring to they have a huge amount of ‘transcripts’ of Germans officers talking to each other and conditions in the camps and never ONCE (he says) is there a reference to gassing or killing inmates. They are concerned with getting work done, the physical problems of disease etc which they tried to solve with the very gas that they later were accused of to gas the people. The Germans has no clue they were being listened to.To me this is pretty interesting. Anyway not to get into too much details but would that make you think a bit? Also it seems the ‘first’ theory is they burned the bodies in piles outside and when that was disproved they went to ‘gas chambers’. Now that theory seems to be shot to hell so I am sure some other ‘theory’ will have to be advanced
Anyway Gretchen I would appreciate what you have to say in the ‘psychological’ realm in this matter. I can and am doing ‘research’ in the ‘real world’ aspects but as we all know the ‘psychological’ aspects are very powerful also. If anyone can answer this it might be you.
Quote:- “I can and am doing ‘research’ in the ‘real world’ “. You really are now doing RESEARCH??? and what other world is there … other that this world? I wasn’t aware that there was another one; unless you are referring to the world inside your own head.
Maybe that sums up this last comment of yours. It’s research in your head; Yeah?????
Jack
> I feel confused.
> yesterday we went to our mom as usual on saturdays.
> I notice how I tend to lose my patience with my mom, specially when I try to give her advice, like to use a thermo container to make tea in as to keep it warm, instead of a glass jar and then the cups of tea after the first one are only lukewarm..
> she has termos containers, they are not new to her, but when I ask her to do something she seems prone to do it in another way, automatically.
> then I had to throw away the cold tea and boil water again and pour it in the thermos, and probably partly due to the stress of yet another discussion burned myself and lost more patience when she used the thermos in the wrong way , screwing the top off to pour tea instead of pushing on the lever, so I burned myself again and raised my voice in exasperation.
>
> this is only one example, and she got impatient as well and said, angrily, she does things her own way always when we are not there and it goes fine.
> my reply was ok, so we only come here to give you a hard time do we?
> and she again ‘I don’t know what you turn this into’..
>
> then I am feeling bad about myself for being so badtempered, but somehow anger seems to come up, for an unclear reason, too often around her, lately.
>
> it seems to be connected with the lack of true communication, of all advice being seemingly useless as ignored or forgotten..
>
> and then to my surprise she brought up my suggestion she could stay with me for a few days, which I did because of her problems with her landline.
> she said she did feel like doing it, coming to stay with me for a few days, that it sounded like a nice idea..
> I was puzzled, as she did not seem to want to do so when I did invite her a few days ago, don’t know what ade her change her mind, to the point of remembering it well enough to bring it up..
> maybe her boyfriend has reacted to her with surprise about her turning me off, who knows..
>
> but now it seems less necessary as they will repair her phone the next days, and well, now I have different things to do myself, and having my mother over is a 24 hour job every day.
> so maybe I will have her over at some point, when I have some free time to take care of her well..
> fear though it will feel like a chore, as long as I carry that unresolved irrritation, pain, anger, don’t know how to refer to it..
>
> is it a kind of power ting, the need of her accepting what I say just now and then, not eternally her knowing better or doing things her way anyway?
> is it as simple as me wanting her to really hear me, see me?
>
> it is confusing, but it is a big thing, interferes with all of our interaction..
>
> my brother also loses patience with her regularly, but he is way more patiend and warm with her overall, giving her long hugs when we go, while I feel this unresolved feeling makes me just to want to kiss her on the cheeks really.
>
> don’t get me wrong, I am nice with her, and often very patient and supportive, but well, something is going on nevertheless..
>
> there seems some abyss between us, a distance I seem to need to keep, most of the time, probably to protect myself..
>
> somehow it feels like if I don’t, she will take over, and leave nothing of me, just a puppet on a string or something..
>
> it has to do with emptiness as well..
> if I don’t try to take some charge, with the not unreasonable pretext of taking care of her practically, there seems to be nothing, nothing but repetitive cliche sentences about her, and questions about my cats and about my brother and his girlfriend, that seems all there is..
>
> that is painful, what about me, my life, my needs, my pain and fears and occasional joys?
>
> there is a lot of old shit in this, and I fear not being able to sort it out and get on a bit better, before it is too late, and she will be gone mentally or dead, maybe only then will I be able to feel the pain of what is not there, maybe now I cling to some hope against all odds…
>
> sadness right under the surface, seems too big to allow, tooo much despair there, have to make sure I can go on myself with living…
>
> did not manage to go dancing today, once more, did make the appointment though to go yesterday, for the dance of today, but after burning my hand used that to cancel it again..
> today my hand was better though, but mental strength was lacking..
>
> this way i risk my own life going by wasted, need to get a hold on myself again soon..
>
> did make some plans for new dance already and sent some mail to get a partner to go together, so that is good, despite all the hardships….
>
> will have to try with my mom not to be too directive, but simply help without getting into any struggle if possible..
>
> not always easy, but well, we’ll see how far it gets me..
>
> have to check with the nursing service if my mom still has enough medication, will have to figure out some way to solve it if she is running out of it.
> yesterday she seemed again more prone to discussion, which made me wonder if she ran out of pills maybe..
>
> or maybe it is me, ha, trying to make her listen to me once, accepting my opinion just once, for a change.
> must give that hope up.
>
> i think it wears us out, my brother and me, to be giving and giving, and not really being getting very much.
>
> she is not entirely blind though, I remember once in the hospital, while I was just sitting in a sofa while she was eating at a table with some other ladies of her room.
> she looked at me, and asked me if I was ok, as I looked somewhat lonely..
> i said I was ok, but had to turn to the window a second later, as suddenly I became very teary, as I realized she had hit the nail on the head really..
>
> what does inhibit us to really communicate, or inhibit me, not sure..
> M
I hear you, Margaret. My mom was able to hone in on my and my brother’s emotions very keenly. Once when he visited, after he left she said “J. didn’t seem like himself today.” And I said “maybe you weren’t yourself either.” And she replied, “Yeah, I guess not.” One day I was very tired because she had kept me awake a lot during the night, (Alzheimer patients lose their circadian rhythms), and I was crying about not being able to cope with this. She was very understanding and sympathetic and hugged me and said “Please don’t be upset it’s not worth it.”
On practical matters she would challenge me all the time and emphasized that she was the mother, not me. But I would tell her I was just trying to help. I really needed to keep her safe in that last year. I wasn’t trying to take control from her but she saw it that way. I tried to respect her feelings, but like with a child you don’t let them do things like eat spoiled food. She got angry a lot over little stuff. Luckily I had a neighbor who had experience with 2 people with Alzheimers in her family and could tell me what to expect. My brother’s wife also had experiences working in a residential care. Outside input is so helpful.
Well Margaret, I think you are doing a good job and I agree it is important to maintain your own sense of identity.
And by your accurate read on the holocaust matters you still prove your facile mind.
Take care, S
> something in this ‘wacky’ topic on the blog is triggering me to the point of making me feel a bit nauseous.
>
> I don’t want to call it a conversation as it is not. it is the selective blind- and deafness, the watertight front to exclude all what does not fit in with the set of ‘opinions’ and ‘truths’ that support a view on reality that fits the emotional mindset.
>
> not possible to reach, that is what triggers me.
>
> there is some similarity with my mom, although the situation could not be more different on many levels.
>
> a major difference is that with my mom I will keep looking for ways to do what is right, reach her anyway by taking good care of her, try to be nice and gentle with her.
> it is a bit hard to reach her, but not impossible, kindness is often the way, works better than struggling.
>
>
> Patrick, all I want to say to you about this subject is asking you if ever you could bring up the guts to walk into a holocaust museum or even go to one of the former concentration and extinction camps for a visit, read the literature about that as well and not only the denial literature. which one do you think has an agenda most probably?
> your jugggling with some numbers is not convincing, there were not only Jewish people killed, and not only German people but people from all over Europe were deported to those camps.
> don’t want to get into any argument about htis really, just feel well, sorry but if I am honest, the only word is disgusted..
> you think your mind is finally open and free, but well, I kind of see it the other way around, it seems more submerged than ever in a crazy struggle looking up the company of more ‘wacky’ people, Collarstrong hangs out with them, you hang out with Collarstrong so to say, birds of a kind flock together, you still seem stuck in your childhood game of the bad ones and the good ones, to a degree that sounds very unhealthy.
>
> just my view and honest opinion, for what it is worth.
> M
> and then the insanity of some of the arguments..
> so some of the victims died of disease and starvation, instead of making it to the gas chambers. so what, they don’t count?
> if your whole family died of starvation, or had to work themselves to death in the cold, or wh
> ere used for medical experiments, that does not count? you can discount those kids that were finished off by an injection with toxic substances straight in their heart, and then the time they took to pass away was measured..
> cause that is another flaw in your denial story, the Germans were Grundlich, they counted and made lists of what they did, and actually I seem to remember they started using gas as a way to be more ‘efficient’, as the starving took too much time..
> this queest to disprove the atrocity of the holocaust is insane, and it being illegal falls under the same kind of reasoning as does the prohibition we have to the preaching of hated and violonce illegal.
>
> it must be so painful for the families of the victims to run into repeated attempts to deny it all, that that is already a good reason as well to prohibit it, as there is ample proof of the horrible truth by now.
>
> this issue for me stands completely apart of the fact it might be used in a wrong way at times to give an excuse for new atrocities against other people, that is an entirely different matter, and not the subject here right now.
>
> you always refuse to look at your own agenda Patrick, so I am not arr
>
> ttempting to reach you here, merely pointing out some flaws and crazy reasoning.
>
> M
Margaret – do you know if Belgium is a country where ‘holocaust denial’ or maybe even ‘holocaust doubt’ is illegal? If so your comments would be fairly irrelevant in that you have no choice in the matter! How weird is that do you wonder why anyone would put you in such a situation? Maybe don’t want you to think for yourself. This can of course set the course for a lot MORE of that so you more easily swallow whatever you are told about vaccines being good for your cats etc etc.It for sure sets a tone of we know what is good for you, no need to think for yourself etc. And you follow along pretty faithfully as seemingly Sylvia does too well as most everyone does. It’s not called “the greatest lie ever told” for nothing. Hey if you swallow a really big lie smaller ones should not be such a big deal and so it.is.
You said “I seem to remember they started using gas as a way to be more ‘efficient’, as the starving took too much time” what you mean of course is you remember reading that somewhere does not make it true. Of course you pay no attention to the actual intercepted messages when the British broke the German codes where nothing of that nature EVER comes up in over a year of listening. Did you listen to the video…………..probably not as the guy said rather that actually listen to what he says there is all this fuss and noise around it………………..as usual. Does or did Grethchen watch the video again hard to say she is so quick on the draw about the guy being a ‘moron’!!??!! and then all the frantic disparagement of the guy.
Quote:- “what you mean of course is you remember reading that somewhere does not make it true”. Don’t you do exactly the same?????? It seems to me that you’ll pick on anything in your so called RESEARCH that agrees with your AGENDA. The right wing politicians do the same thing with the bible:- pick on what suits their cause … and ignore the rest of it. All very convenient for you Yeah??????
Let’s get back top your original message this time around “What if so much of what we have been told is not true………………..?” OR read. Isn’t that the same thing.
What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander OR … have you become some great research scientist now … leaving us peons in the dust?
That’s not what you look like from where I am sitting.
Jack
P.S. go back to your ‘rabbit hole’ Griffin with the Mad hatter and Queen of Hearts. I couldn’t resist that one.
J
Hey Patrick, First of all I never said anything about this being a subject we could not discuss. I did, in fact, know who Kollerstrom was before your post and I simply reacted to what I know about him. I was not banning the subject. What I don’t want to do is debate this subject but others are free to if they choose to. Personally I don’t think it’s the issue. I will address a few things you have said however. First Kollerstrom actually wrote the book on Paul McCartney he was not reviewing it. He was not disagreeing with Fetzer on subjects like whether we landed on the moon or the Paul was dead wackiness and in fact he was a major contributor to Fetzer’s book outlining these various conspiracies. He did indeed initially claim that a double was killed in Sadams place and that he was still alive. Apparently the second Sadam is finally dead now too. Bin Laden had his own conspiracy as did 911 and a host of other world events like the bombing of the tube in London. You know when I disagree with someone I don’t look for those who will confirm my views. I look for those who don’t. For me that is the only way to find what’s true or to determine what I might be wrong about. Kollerstrom has been so widely disputed that there is no need for me to take it point by point. You can read the facts on the Internet . Thousands have testified to what happened in the Holocaust. I have no need to believe it as you imply I just do because frankly those are the facts. I suggest you read about the Nuremburg trials where both Nazis and survivors testified. Read the book Night, one persons account of those events. Do you know who Oskar Kroning is? He has been in the news recently. He was a member of the SS at Auschwitz. After the war he did not speak of what happened and lived quietly and I guess secretly for over forty years. But something forced him to speak, even though it would be likely he would be tried at age 93 for war crimes. You know what it was ? A Holocaust denier. He could no longer be silent and he began to confront the deniers about what really occurred. We don’t need to look for what the guards said in ” secret messages” – many have spoken and you might look up Kronings responses online. You have made a point of lamenting crimes against Muslims – why are you so comfortable with crimes against Jews? I personally think we should all stand against anyone who has been oppressed whether it be Jews, Muslims, Blacks , Gays – it really doesn’t matter to me. Maybe I am wrong but I think it does matter to you. I just think we all need to look inward to insure we don’t have other prejudices or agendas motivating us. That’s my opinion. As an aside , I have to say I would not choose Kollerstrom as my spokesman, Gretchen
Well Gretchen thanks for writing, you don’t have to write to so I appreciate the fact you do. I am surprised actually that you have heard of Kollerstrom. I had not until last week when someone send me a link. Does that mean you kind of ‘monitor’ these kind of guys you seem to know an awful lot about him as I say I am surprised. This also shows I am ‘new’ to this kind of world holocaust denier or doubter world so to speak. I as I say find Israels actions quite disgusting for a long time now but deliberately kept way from an area like that. It can only lead to trouble I used to think and maybe think correctly let’s hope I am wrong for my own sake. But I will explore it some more with as open a mind as I can and it is helpful to know Kollerstrom can be a bit of a ‘conspiracy guy’ clearly he is. At the same time I have learned often people can be really sound in one area but not in another I have to say I was impressed by that lecture and will read his book very carefully and thoughtfully and then see what I think/feel about it.
A few points. I don’t think you are correct that K wrote a book on Paul McCartney he was talking about/reviewing a book he and others speculated was written by the guy who took McCartney’s place (supposedly). I may be wrong about that but I think you are wrong for what it’s worth (nothing!)
Now I have listened to the whole thing about landing on the Moon and he WAS disagreeing with Fetzer. Listen again he says it probably at least 3 times that he thought we DID land on the Moon. So I really think you are wrong about that one it does not help to be muddying the water like that IMHO.
About Saddam Hussein my you really ARE following this closely. Why? I mean the interview I heard he was more hearing out Fetzer that Saddam was killed and then was replaced with a ‘double’ I mean I heard that with my own ears……………..Jeez you seem to follow different ‘stages’ on this guy. Why again!!??. This I find strange almost like you can’t wait to shut him up and discredit him. As far as reading ‘facts’ about him on the internet since when did that become reliable. I like what you say about seeking out contrary views that’s good well then again here you have one and you have my promise I will read his book so thoroughly and careful and ‘report’ back then if you don’t mind.
As far as Kroning goes K mentioned him in that lecture. Well the guy IS 93 years old who knows the reality of this.Let’s face it we don’t could he even have Alzheimer’s or whatever we have no idea. One thing I think is quite wrong when you say ‘secret messages’. There is nothing secret about them they are ‘transcripts’ intercepted by the British by Alan Turing (I mentioned the movie about him it is excellent and if you have not seen it will give you a great feeling of what was involved there) Also the important point is the Germans had no idea they were being listened in on so to me that is very interesting. I think a lot of K.’s ‘case’ is based on those and why not. I would say a lot more reliable that ‘witness statements’ for many many reasons. (Speaking of witness statements K says NOBODY has ever been able to testify they saw someone being gassed to death in the camps)
As far as my attitude towards Jews I grew up in Ireland I had never met a Jew until I came here. Sometimes after I came here someone might say “Is he/she Jewish?” and I am like I have no idea something like that would never cross my mind to wonder about. I would say I have had no negative relationships with Jews either personally or in business etc but I do follow world affairs fairly closely and I am appalled by what they are doing and their influence in the world. I am I will just tell you that. What they are doing internally to the Palestinians defies description and their role in all these wars leading to refugee crisis etc is beyond terrible. So there I go by what I see and the actions speak louder than words. So I delve beneath this as best as I can since I have the time and as I told you I will ‘report’ back on that book with your permission. Thanks Gretchen I feel you give me ‘respect’ even if I am still at variance with some of your ‘facts’
Quote:- “This also shows I am ‘new’ to this kind of world holocaust denier or doubter world so to speak. I as I say find Israels actions quite disgusting for a long time now but deliberately kept way from an area like that. “. From my reading or you, you’ve been at this for quite some time. Not a newby as I see you. As for keeping away from it. That agian is not what I have been reading of you.
I get the feeling that you are confusing yourself about three different factors here. Firstly:- Judaism as a religion: secondly:- Jewish Culture: and thirdly:- the Israeli government’s policies and actions.
For what it’s worth I feel you might make it all a bit clearer if you were to state which of these factors is seemingly bugging you. I feel if you were to do do just that you could be less ‘long winded’ in your responses. You are not a ‘straight” or ‘clear thinker’ as I see you.
You are also stressing again that what you have heard is:- “the fact of the matter” but that what everyone else suggests is highly dubious. Isn’t that a little conceited???
Lastly:- there are as many “world views” as there are people on the planet with “world views. Why are you so, so, so sure your “world view” is the only correct one?????
Unlike Gretchen with you, I have no doubt at all, that you will NOT answer any of my question. But hey hoo!!! what the fuck.
Jack
> Sylvia,
> thanks a lot for your reply. It indeed helps so much to hear other people’s story and to feel understood and heard.
> it sounds like you also worked very hard to take care of your mother.
>
> and Jack, I couldn’t have said it better, you are so right about picking out only the material that suits an agenda and dismissing all the rest as unreliable..
>
> and still regarding oneself as the one and only true researcher,ha, but hey, guess it is all too obvious to go into once more.
> M
Margaret: I got a good laugh outta your last line, 🙂
He sure does need reminding … but will he hear? 😦
Jack
This particular video started for me the change in attitude regarding ‘The Holocaust’. I have seen many videos, I read many books and just did some logical thinking and I came to the conclusion: we have been lied to on a massive scale. You can have a piece of me.
I cannot ever know for certain if Nazi Germany exterminated 6 million Jews mainly, but also Gays and Gypy’s during Hitler’s Chancelorship or not. Not all of them from Germany but from other countries he conquered, From circunstancial evidence I feel that if it did not occur; then the German peoples in the 70 years since WWll would have put up a strong fight against the holocauset. To the best of my knowledge I have heard no such protest from the Germans.
Further; my great grand father on the Waddington side, had a brother that immigrated to Germany in the late 1890’s and his children and grandchildren are still there. Members of my family have visited Germany and these relative have visited us in England. Again I never heard from any of them any denial of the death camps of Hitler and his Nazi government
Another factor is that a German Jewish gay friend of mine, from my early twenties, who’s family owned a pharmacy chain in east Germany; fled Germay super fast after “Kristal Nacht”. It was clear to him and his family that Hitler was very anti Jewish. One other factor, had there not been death camps in Germany I am quite sure that the defendants at Nuerenberg would have insisted that no such death camps existed. Lastly the photograph I saw in the British newspaer at the end of the war of Bergen-Belsen, Auschwitz and Dachau demonstrated that at least “concentration camps” of Jews, Gays and Gypsys did exist. If I remember rightly there were also pictures of the gas chambers, and mass graves.
I can only guess from my limited knowledge of psychology that Hitler must have encountered a bad experience with Jews in his childhood, teens or early twenties. It is also an irony that the “Brown Shirts” (a German gay political group) helped Hitler into power; then when in power Hitler, by all accounts I am aware of, had then masacured. afterwards. All in all I do feel that most admit that Nazi Germany was a phenomionon that is generally (but for a few), not recomended as a political system.
Not sure if Patrick falls within the “few”
Jack
I have an interest in history and do a lot of reading. I think the evidence anddocumentation about the Holocaust is overwhelming. What about all the people wholost family members, are they all lying too? I recall reading that within the Naziregime the gassing of Jews and others was not widely known by the public or evenmilitary. It was secretive. On an impulse some time ago, I purchased and read a book entitled “The Bad War: The Truth Never Taught About WorldWar II”. A really awful book clearly written by neo-nazis. It claimed that Hitler was a peace lovinghumanitarian. It also said that the gas chambers were actually a health intervention designed tokill lice and other parasites. This book was so bad that there was a certain entertainment valuein reading it. A book full of many more lies than just denying the Holocaust.Things to think about; if the Holocaust is all a made up lie, why would anyone do that, and hope toget away with it? Zionism started quite a few years earlier, although it accelerated as a movement afterWorld War II.I just don’t get the attraction to the idea that the Holocaust is a hoax. It is similar to other ideassuch as 911 being an inside job, HIV not causing AIDS, and Barack Obama being a Muslim etc. Just reallywacked out. Phil Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 23:12:45 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Joop – it is good to see you on here (I know Joop pretty well). You are a very smart and sensitive person you would have a lot to say on here and NOT only about the holocaust. You have a lot to offer and I realize that more since you left here and moved back to Europe. If I can speak for you you are another one (as well as me and lots of others) whose experience at the PI was quite a bit less than ideal. For myself I have found this blog very helpful in terms of ‘resolving’ that or coming to terms with that whatever words you want to use……………..it may not be relevant to you at all just saying what my experience has been. It’s never too late even if it pisses me off all the time wasted and how I had to kind of figure all this out on my own. I like to think I have found my way (at last) but as I say not really ‘guided’ by Janov more ‘un-learning’ a lot of what I internalized and though I ‘understood’ from him. This is a big subject but I just want to encourage you to express yourself in whatever way will help you and like me ‘standard primal’ kind of left you cold even if you know deeply there is something very important there.
Joop: I too knew you very well, but I have a far different take on why those few that felt disgruntled about Primal Therapy, and yes, there are quite a few, is because it did not provide them with what they hoped on entering the Primal Institute.
If one did not get any of the promise then it becomes yet another defense on their part as to WHY … doing their very best to NOT look inside themselves. That is the very nature of “defending” It takes courage to look into oneself to see why we felt the promise was not met. “Blame the messanger … not me … it couldn’t be ME”, mantra.
Feeling ones deep feelings is scary and difficult, but not impossible if one will refrain from DEFENDING. However, it is understandable why some would not want to go there … but the promise will never be reached unless one takes that risk.
Jack
The Life and Death of Paul McCartney 1942 – 1966: A very English Mystery Paperback – September 11, 2015
by Nicholas Kollerstrom (Author)
OK Gretchen – it looks like you are correct on that one. It’s weird I looked it up on amazon earlier and checked around as much as I could and did not find anything.
Now I found a lecture by him on this same topic by Kollerstrom and though it may weaken my ‘case’ in that I am sure to many people this would convince them this guy is some kind of nut case. I mean my first reaction is this is pretty crazy, but then sometimes ‘crazy’ might has a point This makes a weird kind of sense and who can say for sure he is wrong
This might be a nice change from the holocaust a dark subject if ever there was one and I wonder if maybe some people here who might know a lot about the Beatles have any thoughts or ideas. I have to say at least to me what he says has some strange rings of truth. I don’t know a whole lot about the Beatles for some reason I think of Ultimate Guru he might has some quirky and interesting takes on this
I mean it is not impossible…………………I wonder about John Lennon’s song to/about McCartney “the only thing you did was “Yesterday”/and since then it’s just been “Another Day”…………..was “Yesterday’ written before or after 1966. He mentioned the British economy I remember one time Ringo Starr was asked why they were given the OBE (Order of the British Empire) and he said in his droll way ‘i dunno, probably for making more money for Britain’ a kind of echo of what this guy talked about. He mentioned the ‘new Paul’ being bossy I remember a quite intense scene from the “Let it Be” movie where George was totally pissed off at Paul and kept say “I’ll do whatever you want man, just tell me and I will do it etc” These are just a few things that pop into my mind no need to be too serious about it think of it like some parlor or board game. Come to think of the last 4 Beatles albums WERE quite different to what went before. Now I think of Otto, Otto if you are reading you must have some interesting take on this………………
This is the song John Lennon wrote to/about Paul McCartney after the Beatles broke up. Honestly listening to this I would not say it ‘supports’ Kollerstrom’s notions though some of the words ARE intriguing and even references the Paul died idea. But he is very angry at Paul but even that is more understandable as some kind of long term ‘break up’ though you never know. 4 years is also a ling time
Gretchen – this is a trailer of the movie I have mentioned twice recently. You may know all this and have seen the movie but it is based on truth……………..that the British hacked the codes the Germans were using and this enabled them in hugh measure to win the war. But Kollerstrom says they also got huge information on how the Germans were running the work camps and what all the German commanders were saying fully not expecting that anyone was ‘listening in’. To me that IS interesting and it seems these were ‘state’s secret’ until sometime in the 1990’s by which time of course all the ‘history’ has been written. He also says there was not much mention of ‘gas chambers’ until about 10 years after the war. Before then supposedly the Jews were burned in big outdoor pyres until that was proved not to be possible. Then the ‘story’ changed to gas chambers………………in a court of law that would not wash. But now at least in Europe all that is impossible it is literally ‘illegal’ to try to re-think or re-try any on this. Plus Germans and French also have been so stuffed with guilt from early childhood I honestly think it is difficult for them to even think straight about this issue. K says even in England where it is not illegal children have this stuff stuffed down their throat and from a very young age. You know how powerful early ‘brain washing’ is and can be. Count me as someone who is try to ‘un-brain wash’ himself in the broad sense and maybe something like this kind of goes along with it (for the ride so to speak)
I have posted a new page G.
For those who don’t know simply go to Remembering Summer part 4 at the top of the page