Remembering Summer comments page three

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948 Responses to Remembering Summer comments page three

  1. David says:

    Just following directions and pasted new page address in my browser.One of the thumbnails at the head of this page reads, ” The Stupidist People All in One Gallery.” LOL Another is a sweet sleeping baby cuddled with a sleeping Pug.

  2. Larry says:

    don’t want to miss comments page three, so subscribing.

  3. jackwaddington says:

    Wowee Getchen et al … back to square one. It does make WordPress operate faster … for a while at least.

    Jack

  4. Vicki says:

    Leslie, I wrote a response to your comment on Page 2 dated “July 19, 2015 at 10:37 pm” regarding Patrick’s long response self-justifying and explaining why he behaved as he did Sunday July 12, although he did reluctantly offer some apology, which I accept is better than none. My new comment, dated “July 20, 2015 at 8:11 pm” would have been well out-of-context on this new page. But I didn’t want you to miss it.

    • Leslie says:

      Thank you Vicki – I appreciate it, and also all you are doing for yourself with what appears to be a never-ending debacle.

      • Patrick says:

        Leslie I wonder what is ‘never ending’ about it?…………this ‘debacle’ happened on Sunday July 19th and you are writing on Monday July 20th. So it’s a day! I guess I understand for you Leslie a day where we are not ‘supporting’ each other and sending each other little cutsie message and ‘assuring’ ourselves how we are all still here and how ‘wonderful’ we all are is a long time……………..your time frame would not be mine, people all over the place have to suffer things sometimes for years and years and they do, Vicki’s ‘debacle’ in the big picture I don’t think is so ‘awful’ or ‘horrendous’ and it certainly is not ‘never ending’ it seems to be over already and it has gone on for all of a day…………..for some reason I think of a mother who has a child with life long problems from for example vaccines could quality as a ‘never ending debacle’ but sorry to intrude I am sure you have someone else you need to ‘complement’ and say how ‘wonderful’ they are and how great all we the ‘elect’ are doing………………unreal world……………

        • Patrick says:

          I guess I missed a week there somewhere but I was counting Vicki’s ‘debacle’ from when she started talking about it. But correction then it was a week and a day…………

        • jackwaddington says:

          Quote: “but sorry to intrude”.

          Then don’t.

          Jack

  5. Otto Codingian says:

    Willie Nelson Blue Skies. well i will keep on dreamin…

  6. Margaret says:

    Subscribing,
    M

  7. Jo says:

    Subscribing ⚓️

  8. Patrick says:

    Here is something Dr Kruse wrote about living is LA (specifically LA)…………….he was not talking to me or about me (though maybe he had me in the back of his mind lol)

    “The world around you (Los Angeles) as a minefield of electromagnetic, chemical, and blue light smog and an assault on your senses, and you still can’t observe it but your mitochondria do. I’m sure that it literally steals joy as it shreds DHA, cellular hydration, and circadian timing. No wonder so many people in that city are so bad tempered.”

    Makes one wonder a bit……………..

    • jackwaddington says:

      Maybe Jack Kruse was talking directly to you telling you to get the fuck outta the place … since I get the feeling you are the one emitting a bad temper.

      Sadly, for you, it seems never ending. Me thinks however, it has a history 😦 .

      Jack

  9. Margaret says:

    > Patrick, maybe you should look up the meaning of the word debacle before you go off on one of your rants and completely miss the point.
    > your mitochondria must be shortcircuiting quite a lot lately, imho.
    >
    > and you never answered my or Donals question in a direct way, just more evasion and smokescreens.
    > M

  10. Margaret says:

    > p.s. I am not sure even I would use the word debacle in this case. it is an ongoing battle and I know from my own experience how hard it is to end a deepply rooted longterm addictive kind of defense. in the meantime other big progresses can be made.
    >
    > it is also hard to do real physical exercise when having injuries at crucial joints from car or sports accidents, again I know from my own experience.
    >
    > i understand what you meant to say though Leslie, I guess I am still simply very indignified by how Patrick treats a person for which I have a lot of respect and admiration.
    >
    > I have shared house with each one of them so I can say I know both of them a bit.
    >
    > Patrick would have discarded me for my disability, he once admitted, if he had not gotten to know me better living with me.
    >
    > for me all persons are worthwhile, but that does not mean their behaviour does not affect my respect for them at a given moment.
    >
    > and well, at the moment, and I know Patrick you probablly don’t give a shit, but right now imo you are really off track and even proud of it.
    >
    > I feel actually bad about it, as you have great potential but seem to prefer to remain in your shell of contempt and dismissiveness. a very isolated place to be, but your own choice.
    >
    > sad really,, but you will probably ridicule me saying so. so be it.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      ” Patrick would have discarded me for my disability, he once admitted, if he had not gotten to know me better living with me”

      Margaret – I have to take you up on that point………….this is really bullshit. You are way over the top with that and wrong. And ‘lying’…………….what the hell are you trying to say/do with that. Total rubbish

  11. sylvia says:

    Subscribing; though I see the fox is still in the chicken coop. No one here but us chickens.
    S

    • Phil says:

      Sylvia,Cockadoodledoo to you.Phil

      Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:11:53 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • jackwaddington says:

        Any cock ‘ll do. 🙂 🙂

        Couldn’t resist that Phil

        Jack

        • Patrick says:

          For you yes it seems it also seems since maybe you have to “behave” yourself a bit now you are even more cranky and hateful than usual for all the pr you do here> does not “fool” me for a minute>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    • David says:

      ” Fox???” Bre’r Fox, Reynard… ??? I like the line, “… like leaving the fix in charge of the hen house…” We never have a problem with foxes in our hen house, only minks and weasels. lol

      • sylvia says:

        Too bad your chickens can’t morph into the territorial protective goose like we do here.

        • David says:

          Now that’s a bird to fear…. Once while making a house call, my patient was not home and her Austrian gander kept me prisoner in the back porch for several hours until her return. There was a hockey stick in the porch I naively thought I could use to shoo him away after I saw , Repeating, ” Nice goosey,,” having proven a failed strategy. Well, with one mighty swoop of the fore part of his wing, and the hockey stick handle snapped in two. Not wanting that fate for my shin bones, I cowered in the porch.

        • David says:

          Oh, I forgot, we do have 5 geese, but they are those all noise, hide behind hens, no action, cowardly inbred white geese, boo, and they scatter.. Great for clearing up dung larvae though. The farm so reflects the cycle of life, from dung to dung…ha

  12. Margaret says:

    > haha, is that the sound American roosters make??
    > in France they say cocorico and in Flemish kukeleku!
    >
    > and no fox really, just one more very crazy chicken, maybe it picked up some weird mushroom or well, a bad bug?
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Are the ‘positives’ with the fucked up micro-biome on the loose/ Margaret you are a fucking liar…………..I was only good to you when you were there, I took you shopping many many times, I drove you to group. I was nice to you as you were to me

      I think you need to ‘explain’ what you meant by that comment about what I said. And NO cocoroo or whatever the fuck ‘evasions’ you are doing now is NOT good enough. Repeat NOT good enough………………so get off your little cutesy little bullshit and EXPLAIN yourself. Tell us/me the context what we were talking about what you think I meant at the time etc etc etc. ……………you never mentioned this before or at the time of course at the time would be hard since it didn’t happen LOL but going along with your ‘story’ how did you feel when I ‘said’ that LOL I know there is lot of ‘group think’ here and you feel safe I suppose to slander me but keep in mind I know what’s right at least for myself and all your lying and crap and you might get agreement from PR man I am sure you will……………..does not make ANY of it ‘true’. You are so mad at me it seems because really if you think about I showed you how you fucked up your cat totally……………NOT deliberatly but you DID and you probably WILL again……………..such is the price of a closed mind. Not the only price but one of them…………

      Yoiu disgusting little liar………………

  13. Patrick says:

    Where is PR man………….I would have expected a ‘retort’ by now……………I should go over there and kick the dick out of his mouth………………

  14. Margaret says:

    > excuse me Patrick, but I am not lying.
    > you told me so yourself, in a conversation we had in the living room.
    > we were talking actually about the tendency to dismiss and label people upon a first impression of stereotypic ‘negative’ qualities like in my case being visually disabled, or in vicky’s case having a bad knee, or well, it is pretty clear here you often use Jack’s age or sexual preference to try to insult him, need I say more?
    >
    > so to prove my point in our conversation, which was a calm and nice one, I asked you straightforwardly if you would have regarded me when you got to know me merely from a distance at the retreat, instead of sharing a house with me as well, as just another primal loser just for looking ‘weak’ in your terms, being blind, and you said you probably would have done so indeed.
    > so whatever you say, my memory is pretty good, and I do not actually hold it against you as at that moment it was fine,as you admitted then it would have been wrong as you added I clearly did not match the way you would have classified me without getting to know me better.
    >
    > that is why I feel so disappointed about your way of treating Vicky, who actually is a fine person and very sharp in many ways, honest to the core and with loads of empathy combined with a great capacity to speak her mind.
    >
    > the way you adressed her is so demeaning, and I do not mean for her, but for you. I wish you’d snap out of it, I really think you know better and don’t get why you prefer to stay in that mindset.
    >
    > but well, some things are a burdeon of the past, some things are out of our control, and some things are really a matter of choice still. it is a free world, and as I am a hopeless optimistic I can’t help but keep hoping you will find how to let your better side prevail, I know it is there, and I truely regret you are stuck in all that bitterness and anger and hostility.
    >
    > you think we are all against you, but that is basically not true.
    >
    > you set yourself up and create this situation over and again, for reasons only you can unravel.
    >
    > hope you do in a nearby future, life is too precious to waste.
    > M

  15. Margaret says:

    > Patrick, please slow down and take a deep breath.
    >
    > you know my comments get pasted on the blog for me so there is a delay between me reading the comments and my reply appearing, that has been the case for years and years and I have repeatedly explained it.
    >
    > the cocorico was written earlier on and had nothing whatsoever to do with ignoring you.
    >
    > the friendly explanation I wrote about what I said was written before that last rant at me, calling me again, what I forgot, something like a dirty lyer, but in worse terms.
    >
    > do you see now your rage and insults tend to carry you away and make you lose touch with reality?
    >
    > do you see in what I wrote I did not bring it up to slap your face with it, but as an example of how back then you noticed how your jumping to conclusions about people can definitely be wrong and how back then you actually sounded like you wanted that to change, which for me was a very good thing.
    >
    > my bottom line all the time is you let yourqualities to be overruled by your anger, which is a true shame, as indeed I have experience of many of your good sides.
    >
    > so do you see now your lashing out at me and calling me names in that last comment was maybe somewhat precocious and coloured by your well, hesitate to use the word, feelings?
    >
    > it is sad you regard attempts to reach you and be of help as hostility and that you lash out before seeing what is really there.
    > M

  16. Sandy says:

    Subscribing.

  17. Patrick says:

    OK Margaret – I can let that whole thing go……………..and some was based on misunderstanding because of the way you comment’s are ‘delayed’. Fine it’s over as far as I am concerned but I do and did think you are really stretching things about me ‘discarding’ you. How could I ‘discard’ you? I mean that is nothing of my choice there and it seemed to me you think it’s easy as I am ‘down’ now to just pile any old crap on me. It is not! And don’t forget just because I am ‘out-numbered’ doesn’t mean a whole lot to me. My very first class in Philosophy in College the lecturer had this whole thing about the saying “Ten thousand Frenchmen can’t be wrong” and the Professor said not only can they be but very often they are. That has always stuck with me and actually it seems even more true as I see the way life is.

    I want to ask Larry something. I mention Larry because he has been here a long time and I see him as basically a fair person and sensitive for the most part to what is going on. I want to ask him how does he thing HE would feel or anyone else for that matter if just about everything he wrote was ‘quoted back’ at him in the manner of it was ‘stupid’ or ‘wrong’ or whatever. I am honestly asking you Larry and my take is I can look I am sure very bad here sometimes but to me it’s sort of like those ISIS guys when they behead someone. What’s missing is the appalling provocations and destructiveness unleashed on their people by sneaky PR men.I AM talking about Jack he constantly and deliberately provokes me……………some people say ignore him…………I do…………for a while. But I see no reason for me to bite my tongue while this guy feels free to provoke, insult, throw stuff back in my face on and on day after day.

    Leslie complained about the ‘poison’ on the blog and like I said I AGREE with her. It IS poison………….but Larry again to appeal to you who STARTS this shit all the time. I can tell you JACK does, I leave him be whatever he is going on about I leave it alone. He NEVER leaves me alone. He has even admitted it is ‘perverted’ I would say it is.So why do it then? If he knows it is ‘perverted’ since he makes such a show of being some kind of evolved primal man why do it then?

    I value the blog whatever people may think of me and once again I agree with Leslie very much. This is NOT what I want here at all. This guy is pouncing all over me, like one time just as a random example I said vaccines was not the main point. His ‘retort’ “why the fuck do you talk about it then” That is a typical response from him. I am not asking you to take sides Larry but for God’s sake this is out of control. And nobody attempts to take control, not Gretchen not anybody. It is easy and lazy to see me as the perpetrator I am not!!. All I do when I sick to my stomach of this guys sarcasm and jibes and jive then I react . Yes I do!! As you would Larry or as would anybody. Anyway whatever this is all probably on deaf ears but I try really I just put down what is on my mind.

    I am not some ‘maniac’ whatever people might like to believe………….is someone talks to me with a reasonable amount of care and respect I return that in kind. But this shit has gone on way too long prompted by David I even tried to make peace…………….NO go from ‘primal man’. i wonder what is going on really with Jack……………..to me he is a hollow man his notions are weak, he portrays himself as some kind of feeling paragon……………..but who in their right mind would day after day just try to destroy someone’s confidence, integrity and every thing else. It is a very sad ‘testament’ to primal if this is the ‘graduate’ really to me a terrible failure in most every area of life
    And maybe this is what pisses him off so much………………to me he is PR man and I make it clear I am not ‘fooled’. At the same time we are all just trying to find our way in life if he basically leaves me alone I have no problem letting him be.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Patrick Tuesday July 21, 2015
      Quote:- “…… to find our way in life if he basically leaves me alone ………”

      You should having fucking well thought about ALL THAT when you first came on the blog 3.5 years ago.

      I merely poke back to you your own ****** words … you on the other hand … it seems, “verbally bully”. I gather, something your pappy taught you whilst you played in the school yard … and seemingly, to this very day, you can’t give up.

      quote:- “What goes around … comes around”

      Jack

    • Larry says:

      Patrick, I’m not a therapist, I can’t help you. If you had been doing therapy these past many years, resolving some of you inner demons, Jack’s antics might not bother you so much by now. He really is a lighting rod reminding you of all you had to deal with in childhood. You and he will keep throwing blows at each other until the end of time, hapless puppets of your childhoods, or until one of you looks to resolve the inner life driving you.

      In the meantime, for the sake of the blog all I and others can do is not bother to read the poison you and Jack hurl at one another.

      I like that you value the blog Patrick. I think we all want the profoundly caring, supportive exploration of feelings that can happen here, but the unique atmosphere is easily destroyed.

      • Patrick says:

        Well thanks for nothing Larry as we used to say growing up. I don’t care for this thing about “if you had been doing therapy”………….well Larry I do believe I have and continue to. I do things my own way it does not check off any boxes anywhere the PI or wherever.

        I notice others do this too like Vicki just say “Patrick is not in therapy” or “he does not pursue his feelings or whatever”……………..I find this pretty silly. I mean it was interesting I mentioned I spent an enjoyable day with two guys who were at the retreat. I tried to honestly look at it I could see no real difference in our situations, I certainly did not feel somehow they were ‘in’ therapy and I was ‘out’. If anything and of course this is just by definition only my way……………….I felt what I do is much better for me than kind of waiting in between one retreat and the next. Which is kind of what they told me they do or have to do.at it seems to them. A lot of people I know fall into this if primal was ‘vibrant’ which it’s not in any way that I can see you would have formal or informal groups all over the place. Instead you have a place as big as London and STILL to this day all that is ‘on offer’ really it seems is come to LA. The very same dilemma I had all the way back in the ’70’s. Nothing changes much especially in primal world which has become some kind of dysfunctional time warp. It was ‘dysfunctional’ then and what is so weird it is still so and even in the same way. In primal land literally nothing changes……………and it’s a therapy based on the IDEA of change……………I emphasize ‘idea’ an idea only it has remained.. From any real world perspective it has utterly failed and this failure is reflected in it’s structure and what they do and say and act like

        That would be another of my Luther like ‘objections’ to be pinned on the door keep in mind I AM a ‘believer’ I do not attempt to throw away the ‘spirit’ my objections are to LA as Luther’s was to Rome you might say………….the PI in practice encourages dependency, to me every effort should be made to empower people WHEREVER they are to be able to live feeling lives. That could be done in many ways including using the computer world more effectively. Instead we have a pretty old fashioned ‘you come to us we don’t come to you’………………….pretty much Janov’s MO from the beginning. From way back he had this thing of saying “Welcome” is all these different languages………….welcome as in leave your own land and come to me. More like “Welcome to my Nightmare” truly. Even Larry you say yourself you seem to suffer from that syndrome quite a bit. The idea that there are ‘angels’ in the form of therapists or whatever in Los Angeles is a very vain hope in my opinion. They are only people you can find better or worse people anywhere.

        Of course there is also a ‘business model’ going on here and to ‘our’ detriment as it always was. Another of my ‘objections’ would be the PI should in principle try to put itself out of business. I don’t even think they do it for the money anyway they have made their money at this point if someone was far seeing enough they would I think do exactly that – put themselves out of business. But with Janov at least ‘business’ was always a huge part of it. Another reason and possibly one of the main one it has gone so badly wrong. It ‘results’ are shockingly poor as it is often brought home to me when I have some actual ‘dealings’ with primallers. As I said before the average and I stress average Irish person and I am sure others I am only speaking of what I know can ‘conflict solve’ or ‘get over’ things way better than primallers who seem literally stuck in place. A time warp culturally and historically and also a personal time warp for people themselves. I guess time warps can be fun in a kind of narcissistic way but as far as ‘healing’ and ‘growth’ and the other words thrown around “not so much” as Borat says…………

        • David says:

          I’d forgotten this fabulous song.

        • David says:

          Extremely well expressed Patrick. I don’t know Dr. Janov. His body of work is magnificent, and he keeps on trucking when he could be anywhere, feet up, sipping tropical juices. My belief is that he is a decent guy.
          I have agreed before that I think it is a travesty that Primal Therapy is not a choice in every clinic.
          That breakout should have been fostered by the founders. In 2008 Doctor Janov wrote in his newsletter on ” Deviations and Aberrations of Primal Therapy.” All of his caveats are I think impeccably well founded. But any argument can be used as a brick wall or a challenge to be overcome. I’m not smart enough to figure that out the solution. My best male friend, decent human, and highly educated and trained psychotherapist believes unequivocally that the charlatans and incomptetents would have weeded out and the cream of therapists risen to the top. I trust him unequivocally. In the process patients would have been hurt. For drop outs old defences get reestablished.
          Potential patients are hurt because of the lack of accessible availability. I do know 45 years later Primal is a best kept secret and mocked. That is a horrible outcome.

    • Larry says:

      You say there is none but there is control here Patrick. It is self control.

      • Patrick says:

        That’s true enough Larry………..but that is asking me to be the way I HAD to be as a child like constant self control……………I thought this was different I mean it was supposed to be different but I get it that is only as an IDEA…………….in practice it is mostly the same old shit but actually worse because it is now overladen by a quite hypocritical (in practice) ‘idea’ So primallers are mostly just worse off than the ‘average’ person…………….not in theory but in practice yes mostly……………haven’t you noticed……………I have and see it all the time……………

    • David says:

      Patrick, extremely well written. Very moving .I hope Larry is neutral when he responds. I wonder where Jack, and others, would go with,” it,” if you chose not to visibly respond to
      crap and simply wrote about your self generated stuff.

      I had a supervisor, 30 years into my career, who absolutely hated me. We had been, ” good friends,” in Social Work School. He wasn’t academically cable of handling the course load and would say he would have never graduated if not for my help. That all changed later on. I think it was his drinking and womanizing and he imagined because I was a straight arrow that I saw him as flawed. Or maybe that I knew these things about him. .. The start of it coincided with my daughter’s death and my promotion to Senior Western Provincial Region Social Worker, which I had never applied for. Or, whatever…..

      He was intent to drive me out. And he was politically connected. First, I tried telling myself it was his problem, he was sneaky and destructive and volatile and since he had massacred our old friendship he was unimportant personally and I would, ” choose,” not to let it bother me. You know the, ” not owning it,” ” STRATEGY.” That works fine for someone I interact with occasionally, but I had this prick in my face daily.

      I tried several things including insulting him when he attacked me in private, often subtly so it would only hit him later, and his hatred would become so palpable he sometimes made a fool of himself. He was also athletic and very good looking and suave with the ladies. That had a charming affect on many of our female staff . Nothing worked.

      I finally fell on writing an email to him whenever he was pushing my buttons in which I unloaded all of the most vile anger I could muster up. Then I read it until ,and when, it had worked it’s magic, and my volatility and vulnerability had passed, I then hit, “DELETE.” I started taking clients/patients in to visit him, and say I knew how well he followed casework, ( which he couldn’t,) and would he have any comments or suggestions. The fool would end up complementing me on my ability and performance in the presence of clients and board members. He’d then say to me in passing in the corridor that I thought I was being, ” so fucking clever….” I’d ask what he meant with a quizzical blank face.

      From our brief conversations I think I see some ways in which you and I are alike. ( Being successful in money making is not one !!! hah I used to give my excess income away when I was in LA. Now thanks to the Canada Life pension manager raping my retirement account, via,” frequent trading,” I’m a bloody pauper. )

      But, when I sense I’m in , ” real trouble,” being used unfairly, being discarded, used, kicked out. cheated on, I can go through a cycle, pissed off, saying too much, too badly; then apologizing, begging, trying harder, struggling, ” explaining,”get depressed, and repeat all of the foregoing, all to try to get back in. I know it made me look silly, even crazy. And it’s like throwing a bleeding chicken out on the manure pile, the carrion close in. And I know that mantra was created in my family of origin.

      The closest I ever came to being physically violent was when I kicked the rear quarter panel of a car one of my now ex wife’s boyfriends loaned her so she could screw off with him for a long weekend. The big boy thing would have been to have divorced her and written, ” FUCK YOU,” in my permanent memory, because she is poison. And raised my kids by myself.

      From experience I learned that the worst thing I can do with an attacker is to apologize if I get drawn into responding. While it would be fine with someone who truly loves me it makes me appear weak in any other situation, and invites them to continue the attack. When I resist responding I found they burn themselves out and usually end up exposing their hand and looking badly.

      I feel for you, Patrick. It must hurt terribly.

      I’ve been in a situation with my oldest daughter for several years now. I believed that she would come around and apologize and ask for another chance. WE were best buds. So far she has not found the strength to do so. And continuing feeling guilty and embarrassed she pretends to be the one wronged. So I don’t get to see those grandchildren, including my 9 year old grandson who once lived with me and idolized me. That’s what set it off, he spontaneously confronted his mother, based on the difference of living with me and her, with not being a good parent and that she was selfish and a liar. My ex wife, who has always bullied our daughter, jumped on that like a bear on honey and started a holy war against me. When my ex and her current husband lost their business, I fed them, for nearly a year, bought his cardiac meds, put gas in their car.

      Friends who know the situation and how it hurts me, say things like, it’s her loss, move on, let it go… But I’ve loved her since she was a kick in her mom’s belly. I miss them. I love my kids more than my own life. There’s nothing I can do to change it.

      David

      • David says:

        I feel a need to be clear here. When I wrote about my daughter not apologizing I don’t need an apology, but believe she needs to to regain her power and self respect.

  18. Patrick says:

    I like a lot of what this guy Jon Rappoport says. Quote below.

    “These inventions (drugs and medical interventions) attack a vulnerability summed up by people who say to themselves, ‘Maybe there’s something wrong with me that I don’t know about.’

    The vulnerability increases, because the individual is forgetting he has an independent existence. As this amnesia sets in, what takes the place of his intrinsic confidence? A general sense of dependency.

    Here’s the dependency formula: ‘I need to rely on others to understand myself; I need to listen to the advice of friends and family; I need to listen to the experts; I need to belong to the group; I need to think as the group thinks; we all need to wear our disease-and-disorder diagnoses as badges of pride and honor.’

    In other words, in society, we have a complete reversal of what constitutes pride and honor. Under the guise of showing ‘sympathy for the afflicted,’ a massive psyop is underway to promote the notion that we are all afflicted and confessing to it is good thing”.

  19. Larry says:

    Finally feelings about being back home after the retreat coalesced into a cry. Like happened many times in LA and at the retreat, I awoke in the night and lay restless, my breathing shallow, my mind racing, a time of the day when my defences are weakest. I got up and put on some music. Bruce Springsteen’s ‘Philadelphia’ did it for me, in particular the line ‘No angel is going to greet me…..It’s just you and I my friend.’

    Years ago I’ve written how the therapists feel to me like angels hovering nearby, trying to help but not intervening, shedding some light on the dark scary path I need to take, helping me to feel a little brave to confront the monsters in the dark.

    After the intense feeling of support and connection at the retreat, what’s hard about being back home is there are no angels to greet me. It’s just me, my life and friends. In childhood there should be the feeling of loving parents hovering, guiding, watching out for me. There was nothing. Just me growing up needing them but alone. That’s the feeling and the truth I see and accept more and more, a little at a time, how sadly that because of their sickness there was no one for me. God how hard to grow up alone.

    I think sometimes and more so lately of retiring to the place I grew up, near family and a few long term friends there. It feels like a better base from which to grow my life in retirement than from my current home.600 miles away. Something always bothered me about going back though, and this morning in my crying I realized that returning home really hits home that there will be no angels, and never were any loving parents, to greet me.

    If I want angels hovering nearby, I’d have to move to LA I think.

    • sylvia says:

      You write so clearly, Larry. Feel wiser reading your posts and renews my faith in trusting feelings. I agree the blog is a fragile place.
      S

      • Larry says:

        That is nice of you to say, Sylvia. Thank you. Have we ever met? How odd to have these exchanges with strangers.

        • sylvia says:

          Hi Larry. No we’ve never met. Have not had formal therapy. I’ve read here a couple of years and braved contributing a year ago when Gretchen was welcoming to non-group people. In my search for like-minded people who didn’t push their feelings down it was very reaffirming; a port in the storm. I’ve learned from everyone here. In or out of group we have to do the work ourselves. This has served as a type of group touchstone for me and a map or guide of sorts. It is odd to share with strangers but I’ve come to care about the group as if we were friends.

          • Larry says:

            True enough, we have to do the work ourselves. How brave of you to contribute. I wish we could all live near to each other. When people don’t write here for a while, I miss them as I would friends who move away. It’s nice that you write and I’m glad you find this group helpful. I guess we all find this group helpful, that being why we keep coming back and participating here.

  20. Patrick says:

    Speaking of Los Angeles this is a cool song I put it on before so I just put on the words here. It’s about a singer/songwriter trying to make it in LA but it could be lots of different things. I like the idea of devils in this angel town. Is Janov a ‘devil’ in some ways I would say yes he is………….so Larry don’t sell your soul to the devil you know that never ends well…………….

    She grew up with
    The children of the stars
    In the hollywood hills and the boulevard
    Her parents threw big parties
    Everyone was there
    They hung out with folks like
    Dennis hopper, bob seeger, sonny and cher

    Now, she feels safe
    In this bar on fairfax
    And from the stage I can tell that
    She can’t let go and she can’t relax
    And just before
    She hangs her head to cry
    I sing to her a lullaby, I sing

    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye
    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye
    Rockabye

    She still lives with her mom
    Outside the city
    Down that street about a half a mile
    And all her friends tell her
    She’s so pretty
    But she’d be a whole lot prettier
    If she smiled once in a while
    ’cause even her smile
    Looks like a frown
    She’s seen her share of devils
    In this angel town

    But, everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye
    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye
    Rockabye

    I told her I ain’t so sure
    About this place
    It’s hard to play a gig in this town
    And keep a straight face
    Seems like everyone here’s got a plan
    It’s kind of like nashville with a tan, but,

    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye
    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye

    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye
    Everything’s gonna be all right
    Rockabye, rockabye, rockabye, bye, bye
    Bye, bye

  21. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > may I suggest you reread calmly the comment in which I recall us talking about the subject of virtually discarding people off a virtual list of being of interest?
    > I did not say you discarded me, we were simply discussing the probability of it having happened in case you would just have spotted me at a retreat and never have gotten to know me better, by lack of opportunity or initiative, compared to the real situation we were in of staying in a house together and spending a lot of time together.
    >
    > it was, I repeat a very friendly conversation in which there was enough openness to ask you how you would have mentally ‘labelled’ me in case of only superficial encounters. the topic also adressing the labelling we all tend to do, often misguided, of people on a first impressio
    > for myself I still need to be vigilant as it is clear first impressions are very prone to be coloured by old feelings, our fears colouring them in my case with possible rejection of me, and therefor, until they smile at me or say something nice, tending to ‘paint’ them mentally as stupid and uninteresting/uninterested’…
    >
    > so in that line of conversation my question to you was if I would have been one of what you referred to as well, let me parafrase you, sorry if it is not giving credit to the more balanced kind of conversation we had back then, but ore or less what you referred to as a group of primal losers and weaklings
    >
    > the mere impression of being a sorry disabled person or better said possibly looking like one for the casual observer, can easily put me in that category for a lot of people.
    >
    > so as you were already talking about some of your expectations and prejudices quite openly, it was actually very good you confirmed you might have probably indeed put me in the category of sorry losers, and the next line of conversation was more or less ‘mistakenly so, smiley’..
    >
    > so maybe if you read this carefully, you see my message is not one of criticism or rejection, but a memory of how there used to be a real openess then.
    >
    > for the current situation on the blog, the best thing I feel like saying is it always takes two to tango.
    > and another cliché that contains a lot of truth is ‘what you give is what you get’..
    >
    > even from Jack you have received positive feedback several times on this blog, always when you just talked in an open way about your own feelings instead of focusing on what is wrong with someone else.
    >
    > well, I rest my case, feel I have repeated myself more than enough already..
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – that’s fine it all sounds true even if I don’t specifically remember the conversation I have no more issues about that. And actually I kind of do remember it the way you say

      It’s true Jack has been ‘nice’ to me or ‘supportive’ once in a while and even though for sure that is better than being mocked and harassed……………..still and I don’t want to be churlish about it……………it feels almost a bit I dunno almost ‘creepy’. Maybe that’s not quite the right word (too strong) but it’s like I am ‘praised’ for that and ‘condemned’ for most everything else I say and do.

      Just writing about it now it reminds me how I was ‘valued’ for my so called brain, my Dad kind of set me up as his little ‘genius’ who could or might do a lot of the things he wanted to do. And like with Jack I don’t want to be churlish about that either, I ‘loved’ my Dad very much and would do anything to please him or ‘pay him back’ as I saw it for being my protector in some very rough situations. But it’s a problem if I was only loved for one thing there was of course so much more to me which was not valued hardly at all.

      And that is a feeling I get from a situation like that………………there is a LOT to me I am interested in a lot of things. The fact I cry sometimes or might or whatever is just one small part of me. I am me when finding out about vaccines or the origin of life or anything I am interested in or care about. And there is quite a lot sorry to repeat that I am interested in. . So if someone ‘loves’ me for example here being ‘able’ to cry it does not feel good. I mean it does feel good in a way for itself but if then the other 95% of me is rejected as a ‘head trip’ or whatever…………….It’s like some weird inversion of the situation with my Dad………….he ‘loved’ me for my brain here I am hated because of my brain. Why can’t I be accepted for what I am and all aspects. None is better or more privileged than another as I like to say “it’s all good” or ideally it would be.

  22. Margaret says:

    > Sylvia, haha, always regarded Chicke as quite smart really!
    >
    > do they also start to hiss like the geese do?
    > and attack from behind??
    >
    > once I heard an interesting explanation giving away some of the secrets of chicken language, which I observed with our own chickens and appeared to be true:
    > they have two similar, but still different combinations of sounds, one is the long plok at the start, the other with the long ploook at the end, so there is ploooookplokplokplokplok and there is plokplokplokplokploooook, and one, forgot which, means ‘I am about to lay an egg’ and the other is ‘ok I am done’, which gives the other chickens two different lues as to their behavior with regard of possible predators and staying close, or moving on or whatever…
    >
    > you should hear the way my screenreader did a good job at pronouncing those ploks, hahaha!!!
    >
    > they also have a kind of plook which makes all the fluffy little ones race to hide under her wings for protection, and I am sure some other ploooks as well for other stuff, chicken talk..
    >
    > crows so far have been checked as to have at least 50 different kinds of ‘kraaa’ all specifically meaning stuff like ‘human’, airplane’, ‘eagle’ or ‘dead meat, yummie’ for example.
    >
    > so far I only know ‘danger’ and ‘all clear’, which are short ‘ka’s’, or longer ‘kaaaa’s’.
    >
    > find that kind of stuff fascinating..
    > M

  23. Margaret says:

    > David, that is so sad,the storu about your daughter and not being able to see your grandchildren..
    >
    > I apologize in advance as maybe what I will say is not in place, but I am raised as a caretaker, so well, I accept the option of this being maybe unwelcome advice..
    >
    > but you seem very good at expressing your love, in a very touching way, so I wondered if you tried to send her a lettter or an e-mail telling her how much you love her and how much you miss her and her children.. maybe you have done so already, and probably also already said you feel sorry about being on bad terms, but well, maybe it helps trying again and being the parent once more in some way..
    >
    > in any case I truely hope things get right again between you or at least that you can see the grandkids again, otherwise it is so awfully sad..
    > M

    • David says:

      Thank you, Margaret. I’ve tried everything. No way to understand the ongoing recalcitrance. Her mother convinced her that I put the words in my grandson’s mouth. All I can try now is time as a healer. I wave when we pass on the highway; and speak in stores, don’t have her email address; she won’t answer Facebook messages, but, hasn’t blocked me. So she ignores me. WE were bonded at the hip. When she was feeling threatened by her son confronting her she told a number of friends what a horrible guy I am. Before that I was superior human of the millennium. She has never been good at backing down. I’ve told her I hold no ill feelings, that I love her.

    • David says:

      Yeah, Margaret, caretaker; me, too. And defender of the underdog and wrongly treated. I used to joke that I raised my mother to the best of my ability. I’m really much better; don’t feel compelled much to look after people anymore. After my time in LA I found it was not as exhausting in my work, while at the same time I was more comfortable wading in deeper with patients’ feelings. Theirs weren’t always pulling on my own and I better recognized when they did. Tough job learning how to become a person on my own; as Virginia Satir used to say, “an actualized person, ” ha;so many words.
      david

      • Patrick says:

        David said “I used to joke that I raised my mother to the best of my ability”……….that’s pretty funny did you think of that yourself…………..I could see it somewhere in a comedy act.

        • David says:

          It’s mine, all mine , ya big oaf; copyrighted, the seal kissed by the Queen,,,,

          • David says:

            Actually it came out spontaneously, Patrick, when representing a young lad to a school that didn’t want him. The principal said he had personal problems too but he didn’t use the story to garner special favours. Rather than strangle the fool I said, “.. this boy raised his mother to the best of his ability until he was four, when she crawled inside a pill bottle, and never came out. And then has raised himself ever since. Did you have to do that, John ?”
            I threatened to go to the media, so he gave the 17 year old illiterate a try at Grade 10, week by week review. Three years later he achieved a Grade 12, 25 credit Academic pass, and went on to University.. And what a pain in the ass he is. I warn you don’t ever do anything above work to rule for anyone. They get used to being used like someone that matters and your life is over…. Is an LOL really necessary here ?? Great kid.

  24. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > that resonates so strongly with me, ‘I raised my mother at the best of my ability’, sure rings a bell loud and clear.
    >
    > funny but a lot of pain involved there too.
    > specially now that she is really losing more and more of her capacities, and therefor finally really starting to need to be taken care of to some degree..
    > that trigggers a lot of old stuff.
    >
    > luckily it also brought me and my brother a lot closer together and that brings the tension level down to a degree where we manage to let the compassion and tenderness and love prevail over the irritation and impatiense,m and on the moments one of us gets close to losing patience the other one takes over.
    >
    > it also helps to be able to talk about it with him.
    >
    > now finally our mom is starting to bring up the option of a nursing home herself, so next week we will go look at one together.
    >
    > might make her change her mind again, will see..
    > M

    • sylvia says:

      Raising Momma: that resonates with me too, Margaret and David. When I was a kid I could see how much my mom was hurting. As a girl with several boys in the family I sometimes felt that I was in a unique situation to understand her. I was sensitive too and easily hurt. But of course my brothers felt her pain too and maybe I didn’t appreciate how much so. A few months ago I was discussing with my brother how Mom used to always say she was going to leave because everything was just too much for her and no one understood her. I told her I would go with her (though I loved my dad, she was the one to do the daily things to take care of us and I didn’t want to lose her.) She never left. My brother said he remembered it well and that he had put her favorite candy bar on the front seat of the car so she would have something she liked when she left. We were about 8 and 10yrs.

      • David says:

        I’m particularly moved by your account of your brother putting he favourite candy bar on the car seat for her. What kind people we were before being messed with. The raising mom thing is so manipulative, at least in my case; implants a lot of fears, guilt, and other feelings.

  25. Fiona says:

    “When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.” (Lao Tzu)
    ———————————————————–
    Not sure about the quote above – I just liked it! 🙂

    At this retreat I started to discover just how much I have segregated a myriad of aspects of my life. How I have segregated people out for certain roles; those people for solely one purpose. Or specific places for certain requirements, school or home or my room. I begin to realise how even the thought of ‘mixing’ (what to me would be) ‘incompatible’ aspects of my life would jarr [sp] me. A laughable aspect would be how I can’t bear certain foods to touch, for example. Or god forbid – that family would want to meet friends!!

    It is not only a conscious device that I have cultivated to anchor some semblance of safety in my life from a young age, but it is also manifested physically by my body too. I will not give examples – but those of you who know me – know why – and wont ask here.

    I think my shock is that I believed that only my brain had segregated ‘life’ into manageable chunks … but my body and its ‘automatic’ responses and ‘systems’ are included in the ‘control’ I exerted on myself.

    How scary – that a young child can learn to control aspects of a ‘seemingly’ untouchable part of themselves, but I did/do just that. The little me learned early to control a couple of aspects of my autonomic nervous system. Go me! But poor me that felt I HAD to do that!

    This is all a bit new – and I am still craving the company and support I get from the retreats.

    Seeing some goooooooood friends comment on here and with the email banter and skype etc that goes on behind the scenes too, well… it has spurred me to spew my bit on here.
    It will not last…

    • Larry says:

      As you describe it the compartmentalization sounds like a useful device Fiona, and an interesting revelation for you.

      • David says:

        I was, or tried to be, in a relationship once with a compartmentalized woman. That was a marathon. She was, intrigued, ” grateful,” exuberant, and then totally freaked out as she gained the trust to allow me, the first person, she said, to see, to know, all of her, declaring I was her soul mate. Then she threw up the barricade and fled.

    • Sandy says:

      It’s great to hear from you here, Fiona. I hope that’s not a threat that spewing your bit won’t last.
      It’s sure shocking sometimes to realize the extent to which our coping mechanisms extend into our lives.

    • Leslie says:

      Hi Fiona!
      So good to see you here! Please stay…
      Your insights are really something! it is unbelievable what the mind/body connection can do!
      ox L.

    • Jo says:

      Glad you wrote, Fiona
      xo

  26. Donal says:

    Vicki,
    You invited me to expand on as comment I made about being bullied up to the age of 15. Thank you for doing this: It was a caring invitation.
    I have been off the blog for a few days, mainly because I had a session with Barry on Monday. I first told him I was back on the blog and talked about my interaction with David. I then told him I was anxious because I had asked Patrick a few direct questions (he had not replied at that stage). I talked about other stuff: I had buddied on Sunday so that saved some time in the session, as I was closer to feelings. Barry came back to my interaction with David: he thought there was anxiety around this interaction. I was not sure of the cause/effect here. He told me that I was usually anxious but it was particularly prominent that day.
    At the end of the session he said that my anxiety was childhood fear filtered through my cortex, and that I had to keep several “plates spinning” to deal with it,
    Since then i have tried to be aware of the fear beneath my daily anxieties: a routine doctor’s visit or someone mentioning to me they need to go over stuff at work with me. These are typical of the spinning plates. Minor and inconsequential things in reality, but my mind seems to seek and cling to things to be anxious about so the fear can be processed/acted out/defended against.
    I was aware yesterday of how horrible a way this is to live. This aweful fear underpinning everything. There is an inherent sense of isolation that sometimes even interaction with others cannot quell. A part of the feeling is that is that they cannot protect me from every potential aweful thing,
    I have an early and deep fear, and this contributed to being picked on later on (kids who want to bully will hone in on those too afraid to defend themselves). This lead to more fear and anxiety.
    I will see how this unfolds.
    Donal

    • Larry says:

      I hope you are eventually able to get to that early and deep fear, Donal, and less anxiety.

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks for writing that, Donal — it’s getting to know you a bit better. “kids who want to bully will hone in on those too afraid to defend themselves” rings, as I often find myself struggling to defend myself, even to remember the truth of the situation, when attacked by a bully. I’m so afraid, I start to cave in apologetically, then if I allow more time, suddenly I realize — wait a minute, what about this, and that — and then realize how afraid I was, I was going to ‘give it away’, give away my rights as a human to be treated like a person.

      • David says:

        It’s like we give off a signal. Odd, I practiced Shotokan Karate for over 20 years; no Bruce Lee; but, I was in an agricultural exhibition beer tent one night when a fight broke out. It quickly became wild west style, so I left; just ambled though the brawlers. No one tried to engage me and I didn’t touch anyone. Reflecting on it after, I thought that my being unafraid and having no desire to be involved that I didn’t look like a victim nor a combatant.

  27. David says:

    This isn’t in response to any post, but the new page 3 doesn’t seem to have a simply.” Comment,” selection. I don’t understand why but I really had to force myself to post this. Maybe that old , won’t be believed thing. I don’t know. Was watching Mash TV rerun. ” Major Winchester, ” was showing an uncharacteristic, human side. Something triggered a feeling. I’ve always been aware of the scene in a pictural/intellectual recall way. This time was the first time I felt it. The terror, me rocking, begging, I’m sorry, promising to be a better boy. Finally she says ok she won’t drown herself, and I take her hand and lead her home. She has a weird small smile.The feeling is almost erotic, elated, my mom isn’t going to leave me. The suffocating sobs came from the bottom of me. Had to get out of the feeling I hurt so physically. Scared to post this.

  28. sylvia says:

    I know those scared feelings: Momma is going to leave.

  29. thomas verzar says:

    Hi
    I’ve been trying to figure out what’s going on with me, since the retreat and my return to OZ.
    Slowly, I am starting to realise that I’m suffering from the same old feelings of neglect. Not bonding with my mum. Not feeling connected to my mum.
    At night, when I get into bed, I make sure I wrap the blankets around me, virtually swaddling myself, thereby comforting myself, trying to put myself to sleep.
    Is this all there is to my life? Searching for the missed comforting, for ever?
    Can’t I have a life, now? Will nothing else do?
    Mummmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Tom

  30. Jo says:

    There is silence here at home in contrast to my three weeks in LA.
    It’s unnerving, and sometimes throws me back to my childhood painful aloneness.
    I have much to do to make each day fulfil me, and find a way of bringing more people into my life.
    Meanwhile, I reflect this morning on a vision which sits in my mind, which I may paint…of the dining area against the background trees at La Casa, full of us lot eating, interacting, animated. And remembering excitement, with acute anxiety, the drive up El Bosque road the first time years ago, the impact of seeing the grounds of La Casa with the oak trees.
    Trees mean a lot to me, have so many memories attached. In my childhood garden, solid, rooted, cover for wildlife, changing with the seasons, climb, pick fruit from, sit under and lean on, break sticks and bark from, somewhere at school to climb up, escape and feel free.

    • Larry says:

      I’m glad you wrote this Jo. The silence compared to our time in LA is disturbing. Being at work takes my mind off it but isn’t a solution. I put in a 14 hour work day today, in the field with my summer student help and a post doc. It took my mind off the silence, but didn’t grow my life. I may be this busy one day a week until the end of September. Too much of my time and energy goes into work, not enough left for growing my life. I need to change the balance. After September I’ll start working less. More and more I want to retire and have other life experience, but I dread the silence I anticipate.

  31. Margaret says:

    > Donal,
    > your comment about anxiety resonates so strongly with me.
    > thanks for expanding on that, it really shed some light on what goes on for me as well.
    >
    > I know that ‘searching’ for what to be anxious about, sometimes Icatch myself imagining things in the future that might possibly happen and what I should do about it in that case, to then get a hold on myself and put a stop to it as it is clearly not something in reality (yet) to be concerned about.
    >
    > I seem to be scanning all the time what I should ‘control’, the fear is always present, more prominently so the last two years.
    >
    > as you say, finding stuff to hook it on seems to be a way to try to keep it under control..
    >
    > it is indeed an awful way to live but well, until more of the fear gets processed there is little choice but to do stuff regardless of being scared, not always possible, it makes me cancel stuff..
    >
    > fear seems so hard to deal with, other feelings can be worked with in some way to process them, sadness gets resolved bit by bit by crying, horrible as it may be, anger gets resolved by expressing it and getting to the underlying sadness, need can be expressed and felt, which of course does not always make it go away but still, but fear, ha!!
    >
    > nightmares seem my best way in to the overwhelming intensity of the feeling, but there is indeed something very isolated about it, feel close to tears right now..
    > M

  32. Margaret says:

    > Jo,it is a nice idea to picture you up in a tree as a little girl.
    > i also love trees, loved to climb them, despite my dad disapproving of me being ‘just like a boy’…
    >
    > my very first spontaneous primal feeling that took me by surprise, was ‘I am a girl!!!!’
    >
    > M

  33. Leslie says:

    I need some reality here!
    Donal you asked Patrick good questions that continue to be ignored.
    Margaret – why do you accept so little and think you have a friend. Patrick “throws you under the bus” so fast and furiously so often. Your patience and kindness shine through as you try to calmly placate him after he has just called you “a fucking liar!”. We knew you hadn’t lied, and in fact when Patrick realizes that, he counters – “Yes, I will let the whole thing go” !

    You deserve so much more Margaret. You are the one that can get further with why for this & all the other times, (both past and recent) of his hurtful rants that you still go back for more. Patrick cannot and will not change as he so often says he is doing just fine – even better than any of us!

    Yes, Patrick who can do better than Janov, better than Obama and so many others – however never does a thing beyond his arm chair critiquing and ranting. Whose hatred of Jews, gays, overweight people etc.etc. spills over continuously. Its all here on the blog – not hard to find.

    And then an actual ‘in person’ verbal assault happens to Vicki – please re-read what Patrick shouted if you need to – and Patrick wants to tell his side of it. No – there is no your side here Patrick.

    David – you have said you relate to the underdog but this is not an underdog story. This is a very sick person making places unsafe. It should not be condoned & therefore encouraged.

    My dad – a pseudo intellectual also, who hid behind it all successfully in many facets of society worked so hard to convince us and everyone else of his superiority. A deeply damaged man underneath for sure – suffering from undiagnosed mental illness in fact – who destroyed us. It is that tragic mess that I see in my sister and brothers’ emotional lives and my life too that we are still scrambling to right – that hurts so much. We needed him to be removed, and he needed that boundary set too.

    • Jo says:

      Leslie, very well said and very real. I can see why this has struck such a chord in you in how you describe your dad, and know first hand how such damage is far reaching.
      Here in present time I’ve also disgustedly witnessed the poison and unacceptable destructive behaviour.
      I don’t have Barry or Gretchen’s unique skills, or your gift of articulating this situation clearly, and although I haven’t remotely wanted to engage with this particular toxicity..I’ve been privately and deeply appalled.

      Margaret, it has seemed odd to me that you come back for more..

    • Patrick says:

      Leslie – that’s quite a tour de force. Good for you.

    • Larry says:

      I have to admit, it makes me uncomfortable the way Margaret appeases Patrick, like the way a bruised girlfriend/wife still strives to see the best in her abusive boyfriend/husband.

  34. Donal says:

    Larry,
    Hopefully I can get free of it……Barry seems to have little doubt that I will. Seems unbelievable to me but comforting that he is confident.
    I felt good today…..the doctor’s visit went fine…..none of my anxieties came to fruition. But the appointment was last thing today, Even before that I felt good so could deal so the anxiety was mainly just this sort of nervous anticipation that things would be fine, Plus, I felt strong at work dealing with people and situations in a balanced but direct way,
    Feelings take a strange course sometimes…….
    It occurs to me that I rarely cry or get into a feeling (“primalling” as some may say) at least in the discrete way others seem to be able to. This used to bother me, but I rarely even think about it anymore.
    It used to make me feel left out, a bit of a failure in primal terms but I really don’t care. anymore….P still feel I am making progress, Ay one point when I worried about never crying, Mark pointed out to me that my life was getting better, He opined that surely this was the goal to therapy, not having feelings…..
    Donal.

    • Patrick says:

      I wouldn’t worry about it Donal – ‘wanting’ to cry or ‘trying’ to cry is probably one of the worst aspects/outcomes of primal therapy, what Janov in his latest blog though maybe he means it is a slightly different way calls a ‘neurosis within a neurosis’ and he should know he has probably seen lots of it

      Quote: ” It becomes a neurosis inside another neurosis” I like that it’s a nice turn of phrase though a turn of phrase was never his problem……………..THAT he could always do…………

    • Larry says:

      I’m glad you feel you are making progress, Donal. I’m glad you don’t feel you are a failure. Seems to me you have a lot of insight. But the fear to deal with.

  35. Donal says:

    Jo and Tom: leaving Primal after the retreat has brought up feelings in you both. I wonder if it echoes something in your pasts: the pain of detaching from people . Attachment is such a critical thing to a young child: detachment of the failure of a mother to attach can be so damaging, I remember doing a research project on attachment theory in school. It was painful to learn of how critical attachment is prior to age 2….I was acutely aware that I never bonded with my mother. More correctly, my mother could not create the bond with me that every child needs at such a basic level.
    The thoughts of how much damage that did to me were overwhelming,
    Donal

    • Jo says:

      Donal, I was told that I was put in hospital at 18 months, and I have a scene of that but haven’t fully accessed it…no mummy or daddy visiting or staying over in those days. Same deal at 4 years, and again at 6. Boarding school the last straw.
      I described my early years to my buddy this retreat, where I and my brother were put out in the garden to play for hours. Hence my early relationship with trees (plus certain flowers, dogs). He said “it sounds idyllic”, and in many ways it was, but I have accessed how alone and unwanted I felt, even before the school event.
      Recreating my past – aloneness/abandonment/yearning for a garden/dog//”people” is steeped in me, in my face all the time, relentless.
      Oh yes, I am so thankful for the primal process, to have some real Jo back, and have the gift of peaceful, joyful and rewarding moments.

  36. Donal says:

    Hi Margaret,
    Sorry I have not responded to your post to me from the weekend. I have been busy and am on the blog for short spurts only. To answer your question, I am still trying to change my career yo psych…..I am looking at classes in the fall to work towards licensing, I got promoted in my current career, so was acclimating at that over the last year, My goal this year is to leave my current job with a lot accomplished and then transition.
    Donal.

  37. Donal says:

    Patrick,

    I read Art Janov’s article that you mentioned: very good explanation of abreaction in the context of primal therapy. A little alarming at how destructive and urreversible it can be: I always thought it would be possible for a person to stop and get on the right track relatively easily, but it would seem not,
    I have often seen people have dramatic feelings, but sometime it seems off, They are too much in control or have a pre-conceived notion of how they will feel the feeling they arrive to group in, A lot of the time I got into stuff it has a life of its own: often ot goes somewhere I could not have predicted.
    DOnal

    • Patrick says:

      Yes Donal I found it very interesting. About a year ago a good friend of mine and someone I consider very ‘smart’ (he has been through primal) said the whole ‘fetish of crying’ was silly and got a person nowhere. I sort of did not want to hear that but because I really respect him I listened and for me at least it is an important lesson/message. A ‘life of it’s own’ is a good phrase if we are ‘neurotic’ by definition we don’t know what is driving us so it makes sense to ‘listen’ without pre conceived notions…………

    • David says:

      I can think of a lot of reasons I forced, thought about, created, wanted, the scene I felt or thought I about. Back here, on my own, no one to impress, perform for, or whatever, I would tell myself out loud to stop thinking. I’d get really pissed with myself. For me it worked and I at least stopped thinking. Now it’s a feeling that leads me to a scene, or doesn’t. At the end I still often cry for myself, what I lost, can never have. I think that’s valid. For the longest time it was connected I think to shifting to sadness, the safest, easiest thing for me to feel, or just crying away what I started feeling.

      Just had a flash of going to write, ” because no one else gives a shit, ” but recognize it’s manipulative, ” feel sorry for me, ” thing.

    • David says:

      I read Dr. Janov’s latest blog entry after reading your comments; and, unwisely, just before bed. I am familiar with abreaction, but the negatives began, one more thing to fear; maybe it’s best to suffer rather the try to feel on one’s own and make it worse, or with a non certified therapist, on and on…. Woke sometime, me and bed linens soaked, terrified, primal blog pages so faint I strain to read, then realize I’m inventing the body of each entry; and a far away voice saying, ” You wrote here earlier about your ex wife and I’m here to say I know something about that and you’re, a fucking liar……..”
      I’ve lost again. So much for being honest, kind, loving, I’ll never get it right. Just a fuck up; no wonder mom tried to kill me. Fuck it. I’ll cry for me if I want. I’m all I’ve got. All I ever had.

  38. Jo says:

    David, you know who “no one else gives a shit…” is, right?!

    I can relate to your first paragraph … in the sense that before a session, individual or group, I envisaged the feeling, how it would go, but more often than not that wasn’t it, a weird way of defending I suppose ( in my case)

    • David says:

      Hey, Jo; Could you flesh this out a bit more for my aging brain… hah thanks, dave
      Weird, not that many, “Jo’s,” about. I had a cousin, ” Jo,” for Josephine, who died when I was 12. I adored her. Every time I see your name in print, I feel a glow, and sometimes a bit sad, and see her kind face in my mind’s eye.

      • Jo says:

        Dave, glad you get a warm glow when you see my name in print, and that you adored your cousin…soooo cute, soooosad to lose her when you were 12..

        • David says:

          Thank you , Jo. Would you be so kind as to explain your comment to me on my post. Thanks, Dave

          • Jo says:

            Dave, i wondered if the “no one” you referred to meant someone in the past.
            * * *
            Re-reading your 7.38 post, I think I misinterpreted what you said, but it reminded me somehow of the fact that at times I have a dialogue going on in my head of what think I need to talk about with Barry or Gretchen in a session or at group, and sometimes it was a sort of safer option than facing something more painful.

            • David says:

              Just once I appeared at the PI, unscheduled, really fucked up, in a huge emotional crisis, I was dying, sheer panic, couldn’t breathe, rocking incessantly, itching, scratching, sweating. I was allowed to go down to a private room. As I laid on the floor engulfed in/by the feeling, all of a sudden I had the thought that I could crawl up the wall like a fly. That caused my gaze to veer upwards and suddenly I saw me, 4 years old, wearing carpenter overalls, in the point where one wall met the other looking down at me. I heard in my head that he was still with me, but that I had to stop acting like a child. I don’t remember what followed but I know I was mightily impressed with the significance of the event, ” I had arrived,”; and got caught up in that. My therapist arrived I told him my experience and he commented, ” It would be good if you could wait for me next time.” That response sparks quite a bit of humour in me now. And I don’t mean that in any sarcastic way.
              Nothing terrified me more than to be asked what I was feeling, because I would go blank; or so I thought but I know now it was triggering being beaten again after an original beating for not admitting knowing what I had done wrong or why I had done the thing I was being beaten for. ” Don’t lie to me, ” You know.” Often I was being , ” helped,” by her, ” beating the devil, ” out of me.
              I’d have been better off if she had killed me the first time she tried. Anti abortionists don’t have a clue. Anti euthanasia proponents don’t have a clue. Death isn’t the worst outcome.

              • Jo says:

                How does one survive such treatment….

                • David says:

                  But we do survive. We’re living proof, aren’t we ?? And that reality is one I shared with others when there was really noting else to give them on which to draw strength to continue choosing, ” alive;” that we survived at a time in our development we were less prepared to do so. Barry once wrote me, ” That which doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.” I was at the disadvantage of not being able to see his face. He has a wicked sense of humour, so he may have been grinning. And that sentiment/adage is hardly original. It broke me up, saying out loud to myself, ” Barry that is so fucking cliche, ” while laughing my ass off. There is obvious truth there, too, of course. But really, Barry has better stuff than that in his repertoire catalogue…
                  Jedd Clampett line, ” That fella just put a grinnin’ onto you, Jethro.”

    • David says:

      I went to every session a blank canvas; a dummy; sometimes the urge took over to perform I think, to be the # 1 student, most loved boy. I’d get pissed, feel a failure when some new patient got held up in group by a therapist as someone who was really doing super at Primal. An important person, who the therapists liked because he was going to be a great success. And I’d watch that chosen, worthy, exalted, aryan, adonis, or goddess, bask in all of that warm recommendation, nodding her/his head in acknowledgement of being worthy of all of that praise of success, and first time at bat at that, and die inside. Usually young, handsome, or beautiful, and I was nothing, a failure, couldn’t do anything right, liar, making up scenes, passed on and on to , ” lesser, ” therapists because I wasn’t worth the best. I wasn’t going anywhere. No one would ever want me, pick me. I’d just be the brunt of every taunt and joke, laughed at like a retard, just like my mother said.

      It’s a bit like here somehow when I read somebody pouring out their pain, and no one comments.Another report of lees pain and urgency can solicit a flood.

  39. Fiona says:

    Thanks for the support guys 🙂

  40. Margaret says:

    > Leslie, before I read the rest of the comments, there is a difference between behaving like a friend, or maybe even just like a person with good intentions and regarding another person as a friend.
    >
    > all I try to do is to bring more reality here.
    > I think you jump a little too far with some of your conclusions, smiley.
    > M

  41. Margaret says:

    > Jo and Larry,
    > you really seem to misinterpret me here.
    > I don’t expect anything from Patrick, how can you think I regard him as my friend after all the things he said to me in the past?
    >
    > still, it does not mean I can’t try to help him see reality, like when he calls me a lyer it seems to be the ost constructive thing to do to point him out what truely happened and help him to remember and see how he gets carried away with his rage.
    >
    > aren’t we all here to help each other with unraveling our feelings?
    >
    > do you only say helpful things in groups to people you consider your friend?
    >
    > i even find what you say a bit offensive Larry, no idea you underestimated me that much.
    >
    > also to JO, ‘coming back for more’ well, that is not what I do either.
    >
    > most of Patricks rants don’t affect me that much anyway as to my feeling they contain little to no thruth about me.
    >
    > it does not affect me much to be called a lyer while I don’t lie, does that make sense?
    > after all the only thing one needs to do then is to put out the truth with a clear conscience.
    >
    > well, the main thing is I feel ok myself about when I talk and what I say and what my motives are.
    >
    > but it does not feel pleasant to be misinterpreted like this.
    >
    > M

    • David says:

      Now that ,” feels,” like group, Margaret. Wow !! well expressed. I know you don’t need anything from me, but wanted to say that.

  42. Margaret says:

    > p.s. and Leslie, do you really think I did not notice Patrick just saying ok I let go or something similar the first time?
    >
    > you guys really offend me by not seeing the bigger picture.
    >
    > what matters to me is that wehn I wrote again Patrick did say he was starting to remember the conversation we had had again.
    >
    > you say you want some reality, but I feel picked on here all of a sudden for being the one that stands up most on this blog for fighting for it to remain as real as possible without just sitting back and remaining silent when the going gets tough.
    >
    > Leslie I must give you credit for daring to take a strong stand when I was putting up a vote in the past to get Patrick off the blog.
    >
    > and now you all seem to accuse me of well, beats me what, for standing my ground?
    >
    > I see Patrick as a person, not as a ‘friend’ or ‘enemy’, and I think you all might have reasons of your own to react the ways you do.
    >
    > it does hurt my feelings though, to be what feels to me misunderstood like this.
    > M

    • Leslie says:

      Margaret – I am sorry I have hurt you. I know how well intentioned and kind you are. This is a wonderful thing – something from you to be cherished.

      It is therefore hard to watch Patrick trash you (& us) again and again.
      To me – Your Hope for him to change – to see reality etc. is just that – your hope, not his at all.

    • sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. I thought your comments were a good attempt to set things straight and the ‘therapist’ in us likes to clarify things and make sense of our interactions that appear at first muddled. You came from a point of strength in order to clarify. I think that has always been your way here. As with watching an adept snake handler we watch with trepidation for the next bite. You are a good person who sees the best in people. Take care.
      S

      • sylvia says:

        My experience with people who only half care about me always ends in pain for me–though I have tried, just my way– so know the feeling of trying to help. It must be ingrained in us.

        • David says:

          It can also be the mark of someone who has developed the capacity to care for the pain of others.
          That strikes me as being more evolved than the forgiveness of religious dogma.
          I continue to interact with narcissistic friends, fewer and less often, and am aware of what I can expect. .

          • sylvia says:

            Yes David, narcissists are a breed unto their own. There are many videos on the internet on how to cope with one, because they can really do a number on you. Especially if they are part of the family or U have had a relationship with them.
            As for: “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”, I think it can also: “give you ulcers.”

            • David says:

              Recognizing them and if they are, ” friends, ” to the best of their ability, just don’t expect to get much, or anything, back. Knowing what’s going on has brought me great freedom;

  43. Margaret says:

    > Donal,
    > I really admire how you are able to comnine studying and a career, while doing very well at both of them.
    > far out as they’d say back in the seventies.
    > M

  44. Margaret says:

    > I seem to be really affected by feeling criticized on a moment I expected people to appreciate calm had returned and things had more or less ended in what to me feels like something consturctive, at least potentially so.
    > can’t force the horse to drink etc…
    >
    > it is disappointing on a moment when I actually felt good about myself to suddenly be confronted with what feels like the opposite of support.
    > oh well I guess, coloured glasses, my conscience is quite clear about this one, and I guess I do have a past as well, but I really thought people would know me better and well, can’t help but feeling this like a negative kind of thing..
    >
    > luckily have a session later on to explore what bugs me.
    >
    > being misinterpreted I think.
    > M

  45. Patrick says:

    Margaret – not that you need my kind of ‘support’ but for what’s it’s worth (next to nothing as I like to say) to me you have the original ‘spirit’ of primal in that you believe in exploring and going all the way through something. Also with the assumption the other person who might even be ‘fighting’ with is basically OK and means well in their own way. To me at least that was big aspect of primal as I absorbed and understood it. My experience for what it’s worth don’t need to repeat how it’s worth next to nothing is this ‘spirit’ is NOT shared by a lot of people including people here. In fact quite the opposite sometimes shockingly so. That’s why to me in so many ways primal to quote Janov himself even if he did not mean it quite that way has ‘become a neurosis within a neurosis’ That’s a tricky one try punching your way out of that paper bag………………I have and it’s hard

    So from my point of view there is no need to get down on yourself to me you embody the spirit of primal way more here than your ‘critics’ who are quite well imbued with all the ‘modern’ mindset of cutting people off, ignoring, not struggling blah blah blah…………..they have their words for it but to use Fiona’s word is mostly a from of ‘segregation’……………….some of them have become very good at it and use ‘primal’ very effectively to do so……………..again to come back to the same conceit ‘a neurosis within a neurosis’……………..as the man himself says I was going to say ‘the man above’ but that’s how we talked as kids about God Janov is not God but he is smart………….and as I say I am sure he has seen a lot of that including probably in himself if he cares to notice………………..

  46. Patrick says:

    Also Margaret I did call you a ‘fucking liar’ but well that is just a combination of you maybe not wording something quite exactly and me over reacting. But it’s fine now I understand now what you meant and were referring to it’s over. Not a problem. Meanwhile people who are not even involved hold onto stuff like I called you a ‘f…. liar’ And that’s sadly typical of some maybe a lot of primallers…………….isolate and hold onto one version – their version of things. :Like I said before the average Irish person can ‘problem solve’ so effectively and fast compared to some of these dinosaurs.. Sorry again I have to say it “a neurosis within a neurosis”

  47. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > what you say does mean something to me. the first paragraph.
    > for what follows i see it more like everyone reacts from his own set of feelings interpreting my motives through those glasses.
    >
    > and I even know thy might have had a point in the past, when i did have certin patterns, which might stilll occurr even in some situations, but to me they don’t apply this time.
    >
    > when you called me a liar, I did not like the way you expressed that adding some meanness to it, but at the same time I felt how hurt you were.
    >
    > truth is to me all what can really guide us to discern what is real and what is not.
    > sometimes feedback can be extremely useful as well, but in this case I do feel hurt by what was said to me as it feels like noone sees my true self and how well I mean.
    >
    > I even feel like crying a bit now, something seems to have gone wrong with the schedulig of my session,I should be talking to Gretchen right now.
    >
    > I wish people would give other people the benefit of the doubt more often, or ask in case of wondering instead of comoing up with what feels like a judgment.
    >
    > it is more than just this blog interaction,I am sure, there are other ways in which i feel very misunderstood and hurt without having a fair chance to work things out.
    >
    > I feel I deserve better, which basically is a good thing, even though some of the hurt remains and will make me be less trustful for a while at least.
    > hope you doublecheck your reactions the next time and maybe just ask as well in case of doubt?
    > M

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: I am inclined to agree with both Leslie and Larry, with respoect to you and Patrick … but then I am obviously biased.

      All this reminded me of when I was little and one incident when after a nightmare I went into my parents bedroom and told my mammy I was frightened. She put her arms arond me me pulled me into bed next to her. My fathers retort “Oh! my god”: and turned away from my mother who in turn turned to him with her back to me. But even with her back to me that felt so safe. It didn’t occur to me me, but something must have registered. As I see that now … me having a problem (nightmare) was a bigger problem to my father than was my terror … but I obviously had no-one else to turn to other than my parents. I did have my mammy… more or less … but obviously not my daddy.

      In the present I get a similar reaction from time to time with Jim … Did I partner up with a symbolic daddy ???? I guess I did.

      Jack

      • Phil says:

        Jack, What you wrote here about who you could turn to has had me thinking. I really don’t recall having anyone to turn to in this way.My mother was a cause of anxiety and my father was unhelpful andunaware, although I could feel comfortable being with him. But therewas no one for me to go to with anxiety and fear, I was on my own withthat. But being on my own was actually the cause of the anxiety and fear to begin withis what I find. Phil

        Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:35:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

        • jackwaddington says:

          Phil: Yep!!! and to quote … again “There’s the calamity that makes so long life … when he might his quietus make make with a bare bodkin …”

          Where to start ???? My only hope is that eventually Primal Theory will become the universal Psychological theory.

          It’s just that the fuck-up placed on us; we inadvertently pass on to our kids. And that for sure, to me, is the ultimate CALAMITY. So complex … yet it could/should be otherwise … if ONLY.

          Jack

  48. Margaret says:

    > I notice now, after just having had my session anyway, that what also gets triggered for me is something to do with shame.
    > like I should be ashamed for needing or something, like what happened in various ways as a child.
    > disapproved for needing/wanting something.
    >
    > there is a lot still to explore, all to do with not feeling understood, disapproved of, fear and loneliness.
    >
    > on a rational level Jack, I don’t immediately see how your story links in to mine here, but on some feeling level it does anyway, the need to be accepted with fear and need and everything included, and to be given some comfort/support/safety/sympathy.
    > M

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: It was not intended for it to be a parallel situation. It was; from the comments to you and your response, REMINDED me of the incident. Not sure I know why … it just did. I mentioned it merely to state on the blog something that happened to me … and to relate how Jim re-acts in a similar manner.

      Just before writing this I had a problem because my contact lens slipped and if I am not able to rectify it, I ask Jim to help me locate it and with a suction pad help to pull it out. It was not happening for some reason or another, and I tried to make a suggestion to Jim and his retort was:- “Shut the fuck up”, then walked off It really is a parallel situation to my dad.

      In hindsight I know why my dad got irritated with his kids. They were the only ones he could ‘let off old feelings’ from HIS childhood. The same as I see it with Jim, but from time to time I get very upset that he is seemingly in an angry mood with me, when it’s my guess that it is with somethings else. The sad part is that we are not permitted to discuss it. That brings on more problems for Jim with what I consider to be his rising feelings. C’est la vie. It’s a choice I make … I need to know that. It doesn’t prevent my irritation with him, but as I have said. It is my feeling and belongs only to me So I am compelled to own it.

      Jack

    • Phil says:

      To me it feels hopeless concerning Patrick as far as getting him tosee the benefits of exploring here or at the retreat, in therapy etc, so I have givenup whatever efforts I was making. I shouldn’t have been doing that to begin with. He has to see for himself and has his “own way” in any case. Phil Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:58:54 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • Patrick says:

        At times Phil you seem so ‘blind’ to me. So you think you are ‘exploring’ here but I am not? You are somehow in a ‘better’ place or something so you might ‘reach out’ to me………….but now you realize it’s useless! That’s pretty condescending do I judge if you are or are not ‘worth’ reaching out to?. Doesn’t all that get pretty absurd. we are just 2 people here I don’t think we need to get into who is ‘worth’ reaching out to etc etc. Though I notice you are not the only one to question Margaret why she thinks I might be ‘worth’ talking to or ‘reaching out’ to. Very condescending and a bit typical of a group who somehow feel they have some esoteric knowledge.about things. To me this is all nonsense and Margaret at least has good instincts and intentions about her. All this questioning of her just missed the point IMHO.

        BTW Margaret I thought of another aspect of this. If you proceed on the assumption the other person has good intentions………………that means also you do as you judge other people according to what you feel about yourself. Do people who write off other people or think other people are not ‘worth’ reaching out to…………..I wonder how much worth they really feel about themselves. They just judge other people to be not ‘worth’ it as we have seen a parade of people do here. I am NOT impressed…………..

        • Phil says:

          Patrick, To be trying over and over is to be acting out an old feeling on my part. So that’s why I say I give up, and it does feel hopeless. Nothing to do with your being “worth” reaching. I just don’t want to be locked in some continual pattern here. That isn’t worthwhile for me. Phil

        • Phil says:

          Patrick, I don’t want to be arguing or struggling over the same stuff continually (and I do do that at times), that’s what I’m talking about and what I’m better off avoiding. Phil

          Philip Banco wrote:

          Patrick, To be trying over and over is to be acting out an old feeling on my part. So that’s why I say I give up, and it does feel hopeless. Nothing to do with your being “worth” reaching. I just don’t want to be locked in some continual pattern here. That isn’t worthwhile for me. Phil

  49. Donal says:

    I would say it’s a bit strong stating that Margaret appeases Patrick…….from what I can see she tries to reach out to him, but does express her reactions and feelings as she needs. I do not see it as unhealthy. Then again I have only been on the blog for spurts so may have missed something.
    However, I have seen their interactions over several years: It seems that when Margaret has deal with her own feelings regarding Patrick, she makes genuine efforts to reach out to him.
    Donal

  50. Donal says:

    I do not have any reactions to Patrick at this point though have in the past episodically. I think some of his observations about primal have validity, and there is a certain amount of healthy skepticism. It is good to question aspects of therapy, even if overall you believe it works, which I do. For example , the last group of each retreat: let’s face it, there is a lot of overinflated statements and wild promises being made there (I want to thank my therapist, I want to thank my buddy, myself and my buddy are going to stay in touch, you’re all a bunch of assholes I am leaving therapy, followed by grand exist…..etc., etc,). Even the best things in life have apsects of bullshit,,,,,,,Patrick reminds us of that fact.
    Donal.

  51. jackwaddington says:

    Donal: As I see it there are several issues going on here and the first is Margaret’s feeling that Patrick is worth reaching out to. I am not sure, how or why this is, and so far, Margaret has not stated why she feels he’s worth her effort.

    The next issue, again just me, is:- What constitute “Struggle” and at what point does one give up on it. I struggle with that very “struggle”.

    The final issue, again, just me, is the manner in which Patrick expresses what is going on with him. I could well be wrong, but Patrick seemingly, does not take ownership of his feeling. I contend (that ‘dirty’ word again), he feels wronged and his manner of dealing with it is to lash out. What I feel is sad for Patrick is that is seems not to resolve anything for him, and, worse, many resent and dislike him for it. AND he defends his stance to the bitter end.

    I don’t see Patrick leaving the blog as I feel he has no-where else to go. Of course, all this in definitely MY bias.

    Jack

    • David says:

      Despite my most fervent and genuine hopes many things have not resolved for me, from in therapy and post therapy feeling. My, “resolve, ” my conclusion has had to be for me that whatever is, is.
      While I had appreciation that primal process/theory is dynamic, but had no way of knowing, except by continuing to read Dr. Janov’s publications as released, how their thinking and therapeutic approach has changed, and even then that is somewhat guarded.
      I keep searching for any writings coming from Vivian, Barry and Gretchen, to get an idea how the PI has changed 30 years on. But have not found any, despite the plethora of experience they must have gained. There used to be some of that in the old Primal Newsletter.
      That would be invaluable to me now as I am not as influenced by my old tendency to be influenced by, and inadvertently applying the information to my path.

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: I don’t quite see it the same way, I feel you do. The therapy for me was to encourage me into the ‘feeling zone’ as best I could to stay there and stop as best I knew how, to be constantly figuring out the “Why’s” of life. I have not achieved the totality of that, and chances I won’t for the rest of my life since, having been a neurotic the damage was done and I am left with the struggle against the “struggle”. Hopefully, to be a defenseless as I am able. That for me is the best it will ever be. There is, as I see it, no end game to therapy.

        Whilst I too have a lot of respect for the way the therapy has progressed it is ONLY by the means with which the therapists GUIDE PATIENTS. The outcome for patients, remain more or less the same. Gretchen has said on more than a couple of occasions that she is jealous, that in her days as a patient there were no retreats. I am so pleased that for me there was. It was truly a great way to have the “mirror put up to me”. Group can do some of that but, not in as expedient a way … for me at least.

        Though I did initially, like you, hope that I could be a therapist, but after one therapist told me that my name had been brought up to go into orientation it was ultimately decided that I was not ready … at that time. In hindsight I am pleased it didn’t happen, as, I see it, is an ongoing battle for the therapist discussing patients and discussing how best to deal with them. I feel I was way too old at 48 to get a master degree in psychology and then an indefinite internship.

        Unlike some have expressed here, I do find that getting into feelings on my own is very convenient, though it surely is an advantage to have a neutral person (therapist and/or buddy) listening to me. I also don’t see therapist’s has having reached a better point. They, I feel, still battle their demons, luckily, they have one another.

        Jack

        • David says:

          My purpose was never to become a therapist. I just wanted to be relieved of the damage that had been done to me. To not struggle for love and acceptance with people who were never going to give it. To stop being a victim.
          MY, ” conclusion,” I refer to, is that whatever I end up accessing, whatever resolve occurs, is, the “is”, the reality, of what will be; that I have come to accept. There is no alternative. I have no agenda, no expectations; no more comparing me to anyone else in terms of progress.

        • Anonymous says:

          Jack, What is your email address? You have posted it repeatedly on this blog but i can not find it now, I am actually wanting to repl directly your post in early september…about aging.

          • jackwaddington says:

            David: My Email address is:- jackwaddington@yahoo.com. As far as I am concerned you can comment on here about the “on growing old” post of mine.

            However I am a little disturbed since I have been responding to “David” with e-copies of my book. Now I wonder was I sending them to you ‘David Hardy’?

            Jack

            • David says:

              Jack, that wasn’t my post. I replied to it, too, and the writer was named, ” Anonymous.” I didn’t know who the writer was addressing, so dashed off my email, too. I assumed the writer was speaking to both of us, and I have no idea what was being referred to as to how our interpretation of how PI works differed, because that is bang on with my understanding; and in fewer words, to Anonymous’s credit. Oh, Gawd, Jack, you don’t think the social anarchist group, ” ANONYMOUS,” has crashed our blog. Hell I’m a bloody physically peaceful but mouthy anarchist. Maybe they’ll recruit me and give me a new career. More likely our fed government wanting to schedule disappearing me… hah

            • David says:

              I have received your books JACK. david. and you’re on my contact list. If you have retained any of my emails, Anonymous’s font is different and also how I type my name is not the same. time will tell if we’re being screwed with. Oh well I have a spam filter and a security program the envy of the CIA…..Actually I remember a while back a newbie saying, ” she, ” I think, was not comfortable identifying self, yet.

          • David says:

            Dear Anonymous,…. I jest; ….. that’s how I understand the therapy, too. were you asking Jack or me for an email address ? I’m dvddoodle99@eastlink.ca; daveydoodle is my youngest daughter’s pet name for me; that was taken; so were dvddoodle’s up to 98; whoda thunk ??? david

    • Vicki says:

      Some good points you’ve made, Jack.

      • David says:

        Why does anyone need to have Margaret explain herself ? Not to explain herself for her, but perhaps it has to do with her evolution, she has achieved that level of growth. That would be something to be congratulated wouldn’t it ??

      • jackwaddington says:

        Vicki: that was very nice to read from you.

        One point I would like to add, for those not in the know … was at a retreat when you were designated my “Secret Santa”

        At the end of the week I was given this tiny mug with a name on it along with a poem. It was hilarious. You had obviously taken a great deal of thought in creating it, It read:-

        Poem to a Jack
        A wrack of Christmas ornaments,
        with names from Adam to Zack
        all the Williams, James & Johnathons,
        even Jeremy, but no Jack,

        Oh there was a peg, a place
        a space for Jack,
        But all the Jack’s were gone,
        so I did the next best thing,
        and got you a “Dick”

        Your pen pal

        I have shown it to many and to this day hangs on my wall over my bed. It still brings me to laughter reading it

        Jack.

        • David says:

          Laughter,???? from a Primaler ???, we’ll have none o’ that, sonny…. say 3 hail Abagails an’ turn tree times ta the left, unless your left handed…

          • jackwaddington says:

            David: Sorry if that off-endz your soul (as-soul) So here’s my penance:-

            Oh! Hail thee mighty one Abagails. I have sinned in thy name and I promise I WILL do it again. Ab-ag-ai-ls hail thee; and forgive my sin-full-dress… “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”. … “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”…. “Hail Ab-ag-ai-ls”. I turned left and saw only ab-normal … or was it ab-omination … maybe ab-cess. Fuck … what a mess I am in.

            Jack

        • Vicki says:

          Thanks, Jack, I remember it well! Indeed, questing about for a gift, I looked for your name on a rack of mugs, there were none, and inspiration struck — better than finding a “Jack” would have been. A (non-primal) friend, with me at the time, thought it was a risky choice, but I thought I had a pretty good idea of your sense of humor, and was so glad it was true. I have laughed myself, more than once, thinking about it over the years. Especially because in school, I was never good at poetry, and yet, given the right inspiration, I did do a good job.

          • jackwaddington says:

            Vicki: You sure did and I thought it was worth repeating here on the blog … and hope others got a good laugh out of it also.

            Jack

  52. Well…there actually are people who wish to thank their therapists and stay in touch with their buddy 🙂 G.

    • David says:

      Nearly 30 years later I still trust Dr. Bernfield with my life. He would never do or say anything that is not in my best interests. I know I am welcome to return to therapy.

      I was stupid not to keep in touch with a couple of people like Londoner, Ray R, who took the trouble to suss out my address and wrote me after I came home.

    • Jo says:

      Indeed, Gretchen😊

  53. David says:

    I visited with a friend, former beloved educator, psychologist, and wicked Jazz guitarist, who is dying. His wicked sense of humour has a bent of anger to it these days. He was telling me how a neighbour, a guy I also know had been by to borrow a mower. He had ,” nursed, ” this fellow through alcoholism recovery, and his marriage collapse. The fellow had been on his doorstep 7 AM every day for a prop up and often for a night time tuck in for more than a year. So today my friend decided he’d tell him what was happening in his world, that he had weeks to live and was in intractable pain as, “… buddy stood with his hand on the door knob trying to beak eye contact and escape.” My friend began laughing uncontrollably as he told me, “… buddy’s response, “, which was , ” huh, Man the Red Sox are sure in a slump, eh/??” ” How fucked up is that?” he said.

    Otto I always read you, and don’t know how to be of help. And maybe that is not what you want. But I hear your pain. The biggest bit of support for you that I read was when your dog died.

  54. Patrick says:

    This whole thing about ‘owning’ a feeling is very valid I think……………….but my problem a bit about owning a feeling about PT itself is well first off I am SUPPOSED to realize it’s all my ‘issue’ blah blah blah so that does not always feel right and secondly it is a way to ALWAYS let them off the hook! It’s set up like that!

    And that has been and is a major problem with the place and the way it has always been done. Remember the ‘roots’ of primal are very like the EST days of all you can do is ‘express your feeling” it is very clear it will have NO effect on the organization or the people that run it.

    I can still remember it was even before I came here so around 1974 on TV an EST meeting and some guy gets up and basically says the EST people and organization are full of shit. And a ‘voice’ from a loud speaker in a very calm tone says “thanks for your intput” it was so weird and so clear the organization did not give a fuck.

    And basically what I felt during the suicides and Dr Holden’s ‘nervous breakdown’ it was still always a case of “what does it mean to you” So owing a feeling is good b but can it be done when first of all it is clear that is your only option and secondly do you ‘trust’ an organization that is that opaque and always just reflect back on you whatever you. The answer for me was NO

    People might think me arrogant for saying I have found my own way……………….the way I see it I really didn’t have a choice. I have felt very ‘helped’ bv the likes of Dr Kruse and I would also say by this blog as strange as that may seem to some people. It gave me a chance to say even if later than ideally some of my problems and objections. And Gretchen is probably very tired of this but I credit her big time for that……………………if I was depending on Janov NO……………I could write so long as it was along the theme of how great he is/was. How lame is that and it is like that to this day with him……………….

    BTW ‘comparing’ even now Dr Kruse with the PI…………..I find no ‘separation’ or ‘mystique’ about him maybe it’s hard for me to really ‘trust’ people but I CAN and I DO when they feel ‘safe’ to me……………with primal there is a lot of ‘distancing’ I understand part of this is the psycho-analytic tradition………………..also incidentally a ‘tradition’ I am not too crazy about…………..pretty ‘cold’ and ‘calculating’ not much ‘warmth’ there and a kind of psychologically a poor world……………

    • jackwaddington says:

      Patrick: this is not meant by way of a poke at you, but to suggest, as I see it, you look at your words here. You say “‘owning’ a feeling is very valid I think………………. ” why do you ONLY think, isn’t it obvious? You now continue with:- “but my problem a bit about owning a feeling about PT itself is well first off…..” So far, you seem to be acknowledging that this is merely YOUR FEELING. That’s fair enough, but now you continue with “I am SUPPOSED to realize it’s all my ‘issue’ blah blah blah ” WELL !!!! ISN’T IT????

      You suggesting that it “does not feel right”, is not to say that IT IS RIGHT. My take is that you leave it just where it is … “your feeling” … no-one else’s.

      If on the other hand, if you are desirous to know how the Primal Institutes inner working operates; that is a whole other matter and their concern. Not, in my view, the patients or anyone else. I hope this does not rankle you.

      Jack.

      • Patrick says:

        Basically it DOES ‘rankle’ that is. You are not my ‘teacher’ you don’t need to ‘grade’ my lessons/papers, you sing your repetitive un-musical tune all day long. “Think” is ONLY a word, no need to get hung up on it. To me you feel like some old hateful preacher who is constantly beating and pounding on my head. You do not mean me well so why do you bother? Your intentions are not pure or good, you say yourself it is ‘perverted’ and it is. I have had way too much of preachers like you. You have nothing to show me or nothing to tell me. You said if you saw me on the other side of the street you would keep on walking. I have accepted that so KEEP on walking then……………the further away from me the better. You want it both ways and more you ‘ignore’ me but you fuck with me you say I am a piece of shit but you still fuck with me. You said Jim brow beats YOU well you brow beat ME. I don’t like you you are a wizened devil who constantly self promotes himself. I am ‘happy’ to write on here and ideally have nothing to do with you.

        You are not my teacher
        You are not my preacher
        ‘Grade’ somebody else’s papers. I have NOTHING to learn from you and nothing to get from you. Practice your PR moves on somebody else PLEASE

  55. Hey David, I’m glad you are here with us on the blog. You joined us on the comment page but if you go to the home page you will see many articles by Barry and I that you can read. Gretchen

  56. Donal says:

    Gretchen,
    Yes, there are people who are genuinely grateful.I was going with my impulses in my comment, trying to see if it would get somewhere. I have reactions to the end of retreats. One aspect of this is that I often feel angry and disconnected when people are just plain nice to each other. Unless I happen to feel connected to that myself or feel included somehow, but that is rare.
    I just have an aversion to simple niceness between people, and I am also cynical and suspicious of it, resolving to myself that people are being phony. self-serving or just choosing to believe something more comfortable than hard reality. You comment and that smiley face icon at the end is the type of thing that often produces those types of reactions in me. Not this time so much, for some reason.
    Donal.

  57. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    I googled EST as I was not familiar with it: sounds like it was a misguided crock of crap. Forcing people to be themselves and abandon their defenses. Crude methodology with ridiculously short time frames,
    No wonder if fizzled out in the 80s.
    You’re right, the process of recognizing it is your issue and owning the feeling can be tedious and annoying. It often feels very cognitive to me. However, I do have cognitive defenses and did dabble in CBT before I went to the Insititute. The CBT therapist saw me for 8 weeks, then asked me seriously if I thought I had received enough therapy…..jesus.
    Anyway,
    I would say if Dr. Kruse’s program gives you all those things you mentioned, nobody can really argue with that. you seem fulfilled in certain ways by it.
    Donal.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Donal: I did the EST training when it first came to London and at the time, before my Primal days, was impressed. Maybe for me it was a forerunner to Primal Therapy, but I am under the impression that Jack Solomans (alias Werner Herhard) went to see Art Janov. Not sure if and what took place on their meeting.

      I did see it as a way at looking at life and mysef in it. Many found it to be way too harsh, but I found it did attack my defenses, and was able to absorb much of it.

      I suppose in all, this is an aspect of me, in that in my 20’s, got involved in a very emtional method of voice production, later I got involved in The Alexander technique and then EST and followed by Primal Therapy.

      Does this suggest that I am somewhat fanatical, or could it be that I was always a radical searcher. I’ll leave it for others to decide what I am, in terms of the outside world seeing me.

      Jack

  58. Donal says:

    Jack,
    You comments on the Margaret and Patrick’s interaction: I think you made some good clear points.

    I do not have a dog in that fight (at least not yet :)), but it will be interesting to see if Margaret responds to the ones about her,
    Donal

  59. Patrick says:

    To change the subject a bit (LOL)I heard this song on the radio to day and I realized I didn’t know who this was but what I did know was………………it was in the soundtrack of “Goodfellas” and was so effective at conveying the world of the protagonist as it was falling apart, the intense fear and paranoia and a helicopter hovering menacingly overhead. It seems to be one of the brilliant uses of a song in a movie. Anyway now I have found out who it is does anyone know (or care)? Guru where are you? Are you ok? Who is this? It’s been a while I was reminded of you as you like movies. Goodfellas to me was a brilliant movie and this mood especially.Pity there is not the actual clip of the movie but this is about all I could find

  60. Otto Codingian says:

    Nilsson? I was into his music in the 70’s. I thought that because he hang out with John Lennon that he was also writing about PT. I was very much a Pt wannabe back then, but did not have the moves to get there until 1985. I used to listen to Nilsson and Lennon, I guess they played on the radio a lot. I remember this song, but I did not know it was Nilsson. Maybe they played it less on the radio. Maybe I was too loaded. Thanks for posting the song. I hate fucking gangsters though. Now I go see what the lyrics are. And find other Nilsson that meant more to me at the time.

    • Patrick says:

      Yes Otto – Bingo right first time…………….I had no idea. Harry Nillson whose career I know little about but he did work with John Lennon quite a bit.

  61. Otto Codingian says:

    Here’s one with hippies instead of gangsters.
    **https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siIukVsG3vs**

  62. Otto Codingian says:

    I mean (mostly) white 70’s musicians, not hippies. Or most of them look like hippies. This is a good dynamic song.

  63. Otto Codingian says:

    John Lennon was my real hero. I want to listen to some of his stuff, but.

  64. Otto Codingian says:

    Harry Nilsson – Spaceman. He had such a beautiful voice. Getting small tears, this was music on the radio during some of my darkest years….

  65. Patrick says:

    Otto – this is a longer version of the same song…………..I thought the shots of all the pop culture heroes pretty cool. I could recognize a lot of them you probably more I imagine.

  66. Otto Codingian says:

    Harry Nilsson – Without You 1972 (HD)–the best! also Harry Nilsson – Everybody’s Talkin’ (1969)

  67. Otto Codingian says:

    Gerry Rafferty – Right Down the Line. something else that they used to play on the radio at the time, and i liked it. But now I feel like the arthritic old man that i used to work for in the 70’s, briefly. he took advantage of my good nature, and my job was to wipe his butt, drive him to the physical therapist, and watch Merv Griffin while getting drunk on Burgundy wine. We drove to the doctor and they still played that 30’s or 40’s music on KOST or some other channel. That music has pretty much disappeared from the radio, except for Sirius. I didnt like it all that much. But now I am the old man playing old music.

  68. Otto Codingian says:

    Horrible horrible years. Getting out of high school, an abrupt break with everything I knew, not seeing the people that I saw everyday for years. Riding my bike to college and not knowing what the fuck I was doing. Getting strung out on amphetamines and LSD. Moving out of my family house with another idiot, leaving my grandma pissed off at me. Drinking drinking drinking. My best friend getting murdered in 73 so I joined the Navy to get away from grief and other people taking advantage of me. Leaving the navy to get PT, but I didn’t until 10 years later.

  69. Otto Codingian says:

    Otto remains dead. Brought his ashes home today, while taking another sick pet to the vet. I remain mostly numb. Not comfortably though. I hate this ending, nothing good about it.

  70. Otto Codingian says:

    Gerry Rafferty – Baker street.. where is that? Kid #1 is in London, going to Scotland too. Wish I could be closer to him, but that’s a lost cause.

  71. Donal, Why are you angry when people are nice to each other? You said it was rare that you felt included… Why would that be rare? Gretch

  72. Patrick, Psychoanalyst’s and Primal therapists are actually worlds apart especially in regard to what you describe as ” distancing” .. Ask an analyst about his life, past or present, and you are likely to get a blank stare or a question about the meaning of your question. Ask a Primal therapist that same question and you may have to beg them to stop talking an hour later. Our approach , our philosophy, when it comes to transference or counter transference are in fact completely different animals. I think there has been a great deal written on this subject. I also wondered about your comments that you felt the blog was helping you. I wondered how exactly? Gretchen

  73. Anonymous says:

    > wow, about 50 more comments to catch up on this morning, have read some so far and already want to say thanks David, Leslie, Sylvia, and you too Patrick, for saying those things, as I feel very frail really and am starting to cry right now.M

  74. Anonymous says:

    > Domal,your words mean a lot to me.
    > your presence on the blog feels like a fresh breeze, full of oxiygen and nice ocean smell.
    > M

  75. Donal says:

    Gretchen,
    I appreciate your questions: they cut right to the heart of the issue. I always felt apart in my family like the other four members were connected. This lead to feelings of anxiety and panic (kind of) and I reacted to these feelings by trying to get involved in some way by saying something, interjecting, whatever, However, this often led to reactions of annoyance from my parents and comments telling ,me that what I was saying was stupid,wrong, etc.
    The same feelings are there now. When two other people and myself are connecting with each other at work, for example, and the conversation develops so that the other two are really just talking to each other, I have a reaction. I feel isolated and there is fear: it has that old life-threatening feel about it, like my mother is ignoring me and I need her to pay attention.
    I am more aware of it and try not to interject into conversations in reaction to these feelings. Not always successful, but I try to do things differently to get into the feelings more.

    Donal.

    • David says:

      I see another facet of my life experience. I feel embarrassed, like begging for a crumb. Like how stupid am I to be standing here pretending to be part of this. Like mom said nobody wanted me. I get really pissed off in acting scenes at the actor who plays that role. Also I use to love it when I and # 2 had put another # 3 person in that position. Only in the past few months have I been able to watch, laugh, get it, ” Big Bang Theory.” I was so pissed off by the stupidity, why anyone would want to be with those fuckheads, who would want to be friends with anyone like that.

  76. Donal says:

    Gretchen,
    One more thing. Mark the therapist made a pointed comment to me once that was very revealing. I was talking of how my boss got hit on her way home, as someone broke the red light, She was a bit sore for a while, but ended up being OK. She told me that the person who hot her was just a kid and made a mistake, I told Mark that I was in awe of how sympathetic she was and that she bore no malice and was not angry at the kid. Mark told me that generosity was not an aspect of my family growing up. It always stuck with me: my family were not generous in spriirt. A lot of the time my needs and feelings were not understood at all. Like I was describing above, my parents took my words literally and dismissed them as irritatingly out of context. However, they did not see a child who was feeling isolated and trying to feel connected.
    Donal

  77. Donal says:

    Margaret,

    Thanks for your nice comment: I am glad you feel that way!
    Donal

  78. jackwaddington says:

    In response to your comment Gretchen; I would like to add something that happened to me when after the first six months, my starting groups was called in, along with all the therapist; with respect to our progress so far. I was expecting that I was going to get a report card on MY progress. I was shocked and somewhat bewildered for some minutes when we each asked to say HOW WE EACH FELT ABOUT OUR PROGRESS IN THERAPY … SO FAR.

    “Oh!” my re-action was … “you’re not going to tell me” … instead I will be telling you. That was contrary to everything I had ever known in the past. Slowly it dawned on me … now I remember Janov had said in his books … to the effect ‘we patients were the experts on ourselves’.

    I do see that our expectations of what the therapy is about before getting into it … is dependent upon how we will progress in the therapy. It is here at this point, I feel Primal Therapy is worlds apart from all other psycho therapies. I would include almost all other forms of therapy also, which includes, philosophical, medical (dietary and excise), pharmacology, massage and physical therapies.

    Primal therapy is NOT done to us. We do it unto ourselves … with the guidance of a Primal therapist.

    To the uninitiated, that, I feel, is where the greatest misunderstanding of this therapy lies.

    Again … therein is my bias.

    Jack

  79. Donal says:

    Patrick, Otto,

    I like this ballad by Nilsson:

  80. Donal says:

    Jack,
    Also, sometimes it is easy to blame the therapy when we get busted in group (especially at the beginning, when we are new) or we end up feeling bad in therapy in ways we did not want/expect. I find it good to remember that the therapy is simply bringing to the forefront all the feelings that we can keep down in the way we live our lives outside of therapy. Therapy does not generate any feelings.
    I have seen people in group who have an expectation that they will feel something and the group will support them. (this has happened to me too, of course: as you witnessed on a couple of retreats) Then people start reacting in ways we do not expect, then we end up feeling bad in some way we did not expect. I have learned that these situations are good: you end up spontaneously in a feeling you did not see coming. Also, you get stirred up in other ways, which leads to more feeling.
    Donal

    • David says:

      I only ever spoke twice in Big Group. The first time what I needed to say was how much I wanted to belong, have some one like me, and how it hurt to not be getting that. Instead my bullshit words, was, and, although a true incident, I told of how at the volley ball beach I drew a circle around myself in the sand as a way to protect me. (It was my loneliness.)
      The silent reaction I got ,” felt,” made me wish I could dig a hole in the floor and disappear, stupid, stupid, stupid, I felt, my worst fear came true, acknowledgement that no one cared that I existed. For a kid from the sticks LA was perfect for getting nothing, being invisible.

  81. Patrick says:

    Nice song Donal.Gretchen asked me a few provocative questions but I’ll get to it but rather go on and on right now I was reminded by Jack talking about the 6 month follow up where we looked at an actual video of ourselves talking when we arrived in LA and at least the way I understood it so we could see our ‘progress’ (hopefully) or the therapist could comment etc.

    ALL I remember and I mention ‘all’ as it says something about how ‘self centered’ I am in that say now I remember nothing about any of the others though I can list even now most of their names and remember them quite vividly for the most part. Anyway that said all I remember about myself is how “Irish’ my accent was………………and this was NOT a ‘positive’. I felt I sounded like some country bumpkin but ‘worse’ somehow like there was deep shame there and ‘inferiority’ too. Like some ignorant and worse ‘un-cool’ type of person.not hip not all the things I wanted to be and even sometimes maybe imagined myself to be only to see the actual video and it’s like nah this is not working.

    I said to them ‘my God I sound so irish” and the therapist said but you ARE Irish.And I go “I know” I think I got into what i am saying now a LITTLE bit but only a little. Like ‘shame’ in general it is hard to bring it into the open. I read somewhere recently where the person was saying people who suffer from shame are typically ashamed of that even. Kind of vicious circle that it can be hard to escape.He was writing in relation to the schism between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church who did not believe in ‘original sin” The Catholic Church I knew growing up did very much believe in it and I somehow connect the ‘shame’ I felt with that………the feeling I am ‘irredeemably’ bad or doomed or something not good………………….

  82. Patrick says:

    Speaking about being ‘hip’ or ‘cool’ this is the kind of thing I might imagine in my ‘fantasy self’ no Irish accents there English all the way…………….Mick Jagger is a Leo also I am a natural attention seeker even if most of the attention I get is ‘bad’ in show business they say no publicity is bad publicity I don’t know about that one……………..

  83. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    Glad you brought this up…….one of those “thank fuck I’m not the only one who has those feelings” moment.
    I have always been conscious of my Irishness, specifically I felt inferior. When I was young I wished I was English I thought I would feel better. I remember fantasizing about being in a band like the Stones: it works much better when I think of myself with an English accent. I just could not take it seriously being in a famous band of Irish guys, I actually compromised and imagined myself as an English person who lived part of his childhood in Ireland, and had English parents, so still had an English accent (like Adam Clayton).
    I have also done a similar thing with imagining myself as an American actor/rockstar.
    I still feel we are inferior. That countries like England, the US, Germany, France are more sophisticated and developed on a personal and societal level. A large part of this is my feeling of Ireland lacking structure or consistency.
    Of course, this is just me generalizing the experience of my family to the country I grew up in.
    This came up in my session with Barry the other day in which he pointed out that my childhood family lacked structure. He qualified this by stating there was plenty of unhealthy structure, but not the good kind of structure a child needs.
    Donal

    • Patrick says:

      Donal – yes it is amazing how ‘deep’ that goes. I mean it is such a powerful ‘feeling’ it can color everything.

      Recently I have been ‘getting in touch’ with the old Irish ‘spirit’ and well……………..I think it is truly wonderful. You know the way people talk about ‘indigenous’ peoples and how close to nature they are and the kind of wisdom they had. Well it seems to me more and more the Irish were/are ‘indigenous’. We had all that but then it was taken away from us, we were made to feel ‘ashamed’ we looked to England especially and Europe too but it’s like we are looking for something we have lost already and lost very close to us………..so close we cannot see it and we race around the world trying to find what we lost at home.

      I am pretty sure I will ‘retire’ in Ireland and part of it is that………………I have spent my life running away and seeing the magic elsewhere, but it was always out of reach. Now I accept more and more I lost it all so close to me and now I feel like even physically moving close to it and also being open to all I have lost. I got a flavor of it last Summer and I have a good relationship with my brother so I believe I can make it work. I am under no illusions that ‘I can go home again’…………home was lost to me a long time ago but still there is something very appealing about it even if only it means I can go there and ‘let down’ let it all go, how hurt and scared and all the rest of it I was.

  84. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    You are very realistic about moving back to Ireland, and all that it will entail. I know some who have moved back after a decade or two over here, and had unrealistic expectations. I think many, like myself, did not live much in Ireland as an adult. So, they had the expectation that they were moving back in time, to the carefree days of childhood. Of course, when you have grown=up responsibilities they follow you every where.
    You are talking about this at a deeper level of course, from the point of view of someone who has accepted they lost a lot in childhood. It would be easy for people like me and you to assume we can get what we lost by going back home, Of course, it is not possible. I accept that more now. At one point about 15 years ago I had this panicky set of feelings and a compulsion to move back to Ireland before I got too much older than I was then. I ended up staying and am glad I did not react to these feelings by moving back: it would have been a mistake. Looking back, I thought I could salvage something I never got growing up: a rich and carefree childhood.
    Donal

    • David says:

      The exchange between you and Patrick is so rich, I don’t want to water it down, so to speak with a diverting comment. My maternal grandfather was one of the 1867 Irish famine children. Whoever took them in was , ” what ethnic group they became.” So we have French Acadian O’Sullivans, for example. My grandfather was taken in by a German family and he took their surname, so the records say he is German. I don’t even know his Irish name, My uncles born here, both sounded like they just got off the boat, yet a man who sailed with my grandfather told me, ” Charlie ,” had no accent, and told him he came from County Cork, so he might even have been of French ancestry. Then I learn that my fathers, father was not his biological father; that he was a Mi kmaq Indian. Sure enough a search shows that my wonderful grandfather married my grandmother, his cousin, years after my father’s birth and census shows he did not even live with them until my father was 5 or so. My only known heritage was, “poverty.” I belong, ” Nowhere.” I look white, but have an Indian soul. I am involved with the Mi kmaq, community, started to learn a little language and traditions, but do not feel I can speak about, “our people,” at gatherings even though many there have less Indian than me in their makeup. Even if they don’t look any more Indian than I do, they were born on Reserve or can say for certain who a Mi kmaq relative was. I have no claim of heritage. My white birth brothers didn’t want me. So, I’m pretty much fucked as to belonging anywhere to any ethnicity, although Mi kmaq who got to know , “me,” welcome me. It’s not the same.
      I apologize again for cutting in on this nourishing exchange between you and Patrick.

  85. Patrick says:

    Donal – you might find this ‘story’ interesting and you might be the the only one who can really appreciate it.

    I was only 14 y.o. but was already playing goal keeper for our school’s under 16 team. Anyway that is not important except only to say I already felt in over my head. This is Gaelic Football not soccer. I am already imbued with how ‘cool soccer is, it’s “English” after all. I am a total fan of all the soccer stars of the day Georgie Best,(who is Irish but Northern Irish so ‘actually’; British) Bobby Charlton etc etc. So though I am a playing goalkeeper in a Gaelic team I have this fantasy life as a soccer player.

    We are playing in Killarney a big stadium can hold up to 50,000 people just a few hundred though actually there but in fantasy well the sky is the limit. Also Killarney is where the senior football team play the crossbar IS high 8′ maybe I am what 5’6″ or something (making excuses here). Early in the game the ball is lofted in to my goal near the cross bar. I flick it over the bar giving up a point. As you know in soccer that would be just a corner. So I score a point for the other team in Gaelic the actual game we are playing but in my fantasy life it is ‘only’ a corner. I knew all this of course but also I did it in a kind of provocative way I would say. Like not ‘shy’ about no like I AM a soccer goalie.

    BTW the referee way this legendary Kerry goal keeper Johnny Culloty was his name. I knew who he was and all the tradition he embodied. So…………next time down the ball comes into me I gather it and then flop on the ground holding onto the ball. Again a soccer move, a soccer goalie can do that but NOT a Gaelic keeper. He is treated pretty much like any other player and can be ‘shouldered’ and tackled etc. I think at this point Johnny had enough. He awarded a penalty to the other team and I felt very strongly I had pissed him off at a deep level. Incidentally the penalty kick crashed off the goal post to safety without me knowing anything about it. I think I had already learned my lesson though…………..I was tempted to sprawl across the goal in some kind of demented acting job but I didn’t. I felt I had really pissed off this legend and behaved myself for the rest of the game.

    Anyway I thought you might like that story I hope I conveyed the ‘spirit’ of it………

  86. Donal says:

    David,
    No apology necessary: actually the story of your ancestors, though very interesting, is very sad and added to our discussion. I often think of how horrible it was for Irish emigrants to North America in the Famine years and indeed into the 20th century, They left behind an inevitable death to face a dangerous voyage and uncertain future. Unlike myself and Patrick, who can jump on expedia and book a flight home once we have saved some money, most never saw their families or Ireland again. American wakes were really marking a form of death: family members new they would never see each other again in this life.
    You mentioned your Uncles’ accents. I went to Nova Scotia several years back on a motorcycle tour, two of the guys who went with me were also from Ireland living in the US like myself. and an American couple came with us, We played pool in a bar somewhere before we reached Cape Bretton (the destination of our trip)., and got talking to some local guys, They sounded like they were from Ireland, but were third/fourth generation. It was not only the accents that were similar, but the mindset was similar to that of guys you would meet in rural Ireland. I made it a point to talk to as many natives/locals after that and found the same thing. It was a pleasant surprise to feel welcomed and at home in Nova Scotia. I do find a lot of Irish-Americans and Irish-Canadians need to preserve that distant link to their culture: seems that it is essential for their sense of belonging. I became more sensitive to their situation after that trip because I grew up in Ireland and left by choice, unlike many of their ancestors.
    I have been reading your posts since coming back on the blog. You’ve revealed a lot about yourself: I can see you’ve had a lot of tough things to deal with in your life.
    Donal.

    • David says:

      Like so many survive, Donal, tough times. I wonder at times if maybe the majority of kids. Not that I’d wish it on anyone but it allowed me to save doubting people who talked about surviving similar and worse experiences. Kind of like talking to someone who actually walked on the moon… Probably that old survival thing that my grand dad passed on to my mother. She wasn’t born a brute. Just thinking out loud. I realize you know all that.

    • David says:

      Oh, next trip, Donal, go to Newfoundland if you want to step into Ireland; the outposts especially. The music, the open doors, the laughter, the midnight mug ups/ full course meals, the generous attitudes to a stranger. I haven’t been back there for nearly 50 years; christ, 50 years…., sadly, it may have gotten all, ” civilized,” in that span of time. Oil, I’m told brought pimps, drugs, the whole McDonalds full meal deal to the city of St Johns.

  87. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    Great story about the Gaelic match…at least you can say you annoyed a ref who was a legend !!!!
    I used to like soccer, hurling and Gaelic as a kid. My parents never encouraged us to play though: they were negative and disparaging about sports. So, I was never much good due to a lack of encouragement. I remember getting my first hurley when I was in second class. The primary school pitch was right across from our house, so I went over on one long sunny Spring evening and practiced.
    I wish my parents had been more positive. I just played the school league in primary, but to join the local GAA and FCC clubs like the other kids. Not that i would have been any competition to DJ Carey or anything, but most of the kids were average but enjoyed playing.
    You must have been good to make the school U16, all the same.
    Nowlan Park was where you played that day?
    Donal

    • Patrick says:

      I just looked it up Nowlan Park is in Kilkenny this was in Killarney in Kerry. Fitzgerald Stadium it was called. It’s a big stadium like I said the Munster Final is played there every other year. It is/was a bit crazy for a 14 y.o. to be playing in such ‘big’ goals I mean the crossbar looked way up there. I wasn’t really a good footballer, playing in goal was a bit of cheating really. I mean I suppose I was an ok goalie or was thought to be but you know it is not the same as being an outfield player. There is such a ‘tradition’ in Kerry about all that football I mean and in a way the way I behaved was a bit ‘sacrilegious’ wouldn’t be the last time I did that……………..am I not a bit ‘sacrilegious’ about primal even………………

      • David says:

        Patrick, not my game here, but whatever, you,” are,” something I truly admire is your refusal, ” to be disingenuous,” You throw it out and knowing the results, because being honest is that important to you. Thanks to you, I recognize now that I have at times, been disingenuous, disguising it as humour. Me the guy who asserts that, ” I always take ownership for what I say.” Full of crap I was on that one I now see, hiding sometimes behind, being indirect or, ” humour,” so I don’t catch shit. I owe you, sir.

  88. Donal says:

    Correction: I wanted to join the local GAA and FCC clubs like the other kids.

  89. Patrick says:

    Donal – I am a bit amazed I mean I sort of thought I was the only one to suffer this “Irish syndrome” thanks for being so open about your own ‘fantasies’ makes it seem strangely ‘normal’ now for a minute……………..I really thought I was sort of the only one…………..or the only one with that extreme of a case………………it’s good to ‘admit’ these things……………..

  90. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    I misread: you did write Killarney, Being from Kilkenny (you probably got that from the DJ Carey reference) I inferred Kilkenny into your post I suppose and thought you meant Nowlan park.
    Hurling was the big thing there, of course. I remember watching an All Ireland once then going out to my friends house to play a bit of hurling since we were so energized by Kilkenny’s win. Kerry and Kilkenny cannot really be sports Galway is a different matter because they have good teams in both sports.
    Likewise, I am glad you revealed your Irish syndrome too:refreshing to have it out in the open. Interesting that we both have fantasized about escaping to another nationality…..it’s probably considered high treason to wish you were English in some circles in Ireland!!!!

  91. Donal says:

    David,

    One of the guys I knew did go to Nova Scotia and then New Foundland by motorcycle, and really enjoyed seeing it. A lot of driving though, which is tougher on a bike laden with luggage. I wanted to go back and see it: it is probably still largely unspoilt from what I have heard. New Foundland is the next piece of land when you head west from Ireland, so has always intrigued me. Labrador has always fascinated me too………it seems so desolate but I notice there is one road to drive my motorcycle along??? Would have to be July or August of course. I bought a book in Nova Scotia titled “This Wonderful Terrible Place” which shows pictures of Labrador and New Foundland which contains black and white photographs and provides some details of the history of these areas. it fed my curiousity I believe they are considered one province, but am not sure.
    We actually camped in Nova Scotia which added immensely to our experience.
    Donal.

    • David says:

      Depending on where you go in Labrador, which is part of Newfoundland, there are expanses of rock surfaced roads which require 6 or 8 ply tires to avoid flats. It’s a travesty what the mining has done to Labrador. Holes in the ground so big they have built communities in them with long winding roads to get down. The people living there are oblivious to what is happening to the ecology. Monster 4 wheel drive pick up trucks are part of the luring candy package. When the minerals are gone so are the companies. Huge money for minimal education. One guy I counseled as a kid, Grade 8, some community college, is now a millionaire several times over.

    • David says:

      Oh, and Cape Breton is part of Nova Scotia, Donal. Because of the need for artisan tradesmen in the early1900’s it has a fairly diverse ethnic population, while Scot is the predominant group; but Jewish, German, Italian, too. Where I live is where the French built the first permanent settlement in 1605, and Annapolis Royal, the 1st Capital of Nova Scotia.Then the British conquered them in 1613, and a see saw military campaign went on for decades. The Mi kmaq saved the French from certain death and they had a fairly respectful relationship except the French were bent on converting them to christianity. From the time the English and Scots gained the upper hand to the present there was an emphasis on exterminating all of the Indian Tribes, who were far more developed socially, politically, and in medicine and surgery than the European invaders. There is significant intermarriage between Irish, French and the Mi kmaq ( mee maw with a sort of haak sound at the end), and English and Scots with Black Loyalists, and free slaves fleeing the US before and after the American Civil War. Slavert was maintained by Northern fed gov’t in one form or another for 80 years after the end of that civil war. It was the engine that fueled the nations economic development, prisons used to supplement the slave sheds. Spitting was enough for a lengthy prison term to hard labor.
      In Canada whites sold their excess children into slavery under the semantic, ” Indenture.” New Years Day and July 1st were scheduled auction dates. My paternal grandmother was ,” given in marriage,” by her Protestant/Baptist minister father at age 12, in 1877, to a 39 year old Scot from PEI. He drowned at sea and at 15 she was again, ” given in marriage, ” that time to a 62 year old US businessman. Rather uncivilized IMHO…. No wonder we inherited such fucked up parents. Sub humans….
      I do get on my rants, sorry…
      david

  92. Otto Codingian says:

    Kid#1 in Europe. Usually Z and he spend Saturday together laughing it up, driving around. Since he wasn’t here, she wanted ME to drive her around. Went to the beginning of Topanga, some overlook. Arguing all the way. Took the 2 dogs out for 2 minutes because Sophie’s whining was bothering Z. Not going to go into detail. Took those dogs home and picked up the monster dog and went for a drive to the beach. Stopped at the old PI on Pico because it is a good neighborhood to walk the monster dog in. Z didn’t bring her walking shoes and so we walked 5 mins only. Drove around to Pico and went past the old PI, then drove up to the new PI to take a glance at it. Z made a comment about me circling around the PI. She did not like going down memory lane. So we drove down to Santa Monica, ostensibly to go see the beach. But really, it was just memory lane, I was not interested in going down memory lane either, but I really had no plans happening in the brain matter. Drove past the house we rented on Bay Street, where the kids became serious drug addicts, and where kid #1 came close to dying everyday for a long period of time. Where kid #2 hung out with assholes. Where my favorite dog died a long slow death from leukemia. Where the dog we got kid#1 in 1989 died of old age. Where 2 of our cats got run over and 2 others went missing. Bay Street, where kid#1’s fish tank fell apart and half of his fish died. Bay Street, where I finally had to get rid of the 2 remaining fish because I was unable to properly clean the fish tank and kid was now staying elsewhere. Took the 2 fish to the fish store as recommended by fish enthusiasts online. They ended up in the dark back tank room of the pet store, where previously they had been in our living room full of light. The pet store guy said he would try to find someone to take them. Then my job and and me and Z got moved to AZ for 2 years. I called the petstore guy once and he said one fish had gotten a home. I meant to call again many times to see about the other fish but I could not bring myself to pick up the phone at work to do so. We came back from time to time to see the kids who were getting sober at a sober living house. I went to the fish store and the 2nd fish was gone and the petstore guy was no longer there. I felt horrible for abandoning that fish, they probably flushed him down the drain. A beautiful hawaiin fish, Oomo Oomo, or something like that, pretty large fish and you could look at him and know he had thoughts. Every time I drive past that pet store in Santa Monica I feel horrible about that fish. Anyway, Bay Steet, the same Bay Street where I once went to meet U, sometime in the 90’s, who later died of liver cancer. Bay Street, funny, also there was the Bay Street in Costa Mesa where my uncle almost murdered me. I did not feel too bad driving past the old house today because I am uncomfortably numb. We did have a couple of good times down at Santa Monica beach in the years since we got back from AZ. We don’t live there anymore, but we would bring Otto and Sophie and Cody down to the beach for a Saturday walk sometimes. I am sure Z and I argued in the car 50 percent of the times we went. Anyway, Z said if kid #1 gets a job after phd, in somewhere besides L.A., she intends to go with him. Fine with me, it will not be easy or even possible for me to get another job wherever kid ends up. I said I would probably stay anyway, because I moved to L.A. to go to PT, even though the prospects of ever returning to PT appear dismal. A sick cat now, another $400 at the vet. Well, she does not look too good, so maybe this time it won’t be so drawn out like with Otto. At least I was able to do some boring overtime work today, to pay for the vet. You know what, I am having a lot of fun in my old age. You know what, I am a fucking liar. Victim. What fucking ever.

  93. Hey Donal, Thanks so much for your answer. I thought it painted a clear and concise picture as to what happened and how it has impacted you. I must say it sounds like an incredibly painful situation to have grown up in. Marks comment regarding ” a spirit of generosity” was pretty accurate as far as I’m concerned! Gretch

  94. Margaret says:

    > Donal, 20 years of Shotokan, that explains why I always noticed something very secure, upright and stable about your bodily posture.
    > I am a black belt judo myself, and notice still how it creates a basic kind of confidence, despite probably never really useful in a physical way for me now in a fight.
    > the confidence in itself once was enough for me to chase away a mugger one night who assaulted me right in fromt of my own doorstep. I just kept pushing him away and screaming at him what a coward he was to assault a blind person, and that I was not gonna give him my money, haha, and finally he ran without having taken anything. even the cellphone he grabbed out of my coat pocket was left on the window sill..
    > I like that bit of knowledge about you.
    >
    > and David, that was a very nice thing you said about me not having to explain myself.
    >
    > well, only 29 more comments to read this morning..
    > M

  95. Patrick says:

    Gretchen – you asked me 2 very interesting questions at least to me they are. 1. How does psycho-analyis compare with primal therapy as regards ‘distancing’ the distance between therapist and patient, ‘transference’ etc etc 2.How exactly did/do I feel ‘helped’ by this blog.

    I would love to have a crack at both of those……………….but I’m thinking what are the chances especially with somewhat cerebral topics like that or at least they will be seen as such, what are the chances that I won’t get my words ‘quoted’ back to me in a stupid, spiteful and nasty way (There THAT might well get ‘quoted) I would say my chances are nil. My logic will be found to have holes in it, I will be found to be a ‘crooked thinker’ I will be told to “STOP’ doing something or other, I will be told to stick to MY feeling and to STOP having notions about the world, rigid distinctions will be drawn and made about ‘MY” feeling and ‘reality’ on and on and on. Not that ‘reality’ anywhere operates that way except in the rigid mind of ‘religious fanatic’

    So in the interest of hopefully a peaceful Sunday I will have to pass for now. I don’t need it and I don’t think the blog needs it. Just more pointless one up man ship and PR. But thank you very much for asking it is nice that you do not ‘shun’ me like the “Amen Corner” and I will keep it in mind and at some point I will answer you. And seriously thanks again for asking. I plan to be away from the computer all day (a peaceful Sunday hopefully)……………….

  96. Larry says:

    My social life on weekends is feast or famine, too often famine. But this weekend, it’s a feast. On Friday evening I went to dinner and a play with about 10 ladies from a singles group I’m part of. What’s interesting for me is how I felt able to exert myself, my personality, into the group dynamic instead of just being a quiet, passive tag along. The other interesting aspect about it was how despite it being a good and successful social evening for me, my dominant feeling exuding through it all was emptiness.

    This Saturday morning I got a hair cut. It’s my 4th one with this new barber. He’s a young man in his 20’s. Conversation until now has been kind of strained and polite. I sense a lot of repressed tension in him. This morning he opened up to me. He was 8 years old in Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. He was scared all the time, terrified of the dropping bombs, constantly wanting it to stop. In his teenage years he was depressed, suicidal. He came through it all by deciding what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, that there is a reason for everything, and you have to have faith in God’s plan. You get the idea. I didn’t brush him off. I just said to him I have a different view. He wanted to hear it. I told him OK, but I don’t want to try to change your mind, I accept your view is valid for you and works for you, but it isn’t what works for me. Then we had a friendly discussion while he cut my hair, where I dismantled some of his thesis and presented alternative possible explanations for why life is the way it is, which he found interesting. He enjoyed that we were able to disagree on friendly terms. As I paid my bill, addressed me as ‘brother’. It was a nice connection, but so shallow compared to the connection with good primal friends, leaving me feeling empty.

    Saturday evening I went to a backyard potluck barbeque, with about 35 people from the singles group. I liked how I was able to mingle a little more confidently than in the past. I liked how the conversations I had with the persons seated on either side of me became pretty real, or with a friend who came to sit beside me to visit. I liked how accepted I felt in this friendly group. But my dominant feeling exuding through it all again was emptiness.

    Today I have a potluck picnic to go to. Yet this morning I woke up very early, unable to sleep for some reason, restless. I felt an awful unease that was taking the fun out of the weekend for me, that was draining any fun out of life, a hopelessness that was making life feel not worthwhile despite my efforts at growing it. Probably a feeling on the verge of erupting I figured. So I got up and turned on some music. Sure enough, out poured the feeling. I have no family history to find strength in, no parents who I lovingly bonded to, no childhood that I cherish. I’m just alone on my own. If I don’t find the right people to connect to, it feels like life/retirement will hardly be worth it. Then again, it was my childhood that was unbearable. When I was strong enough to go out into the world, I was astounded that people saw something in me that my parents never did. It was those people who made my life worthwhile as I made my way.

    I’m at a stage where my life is poised to change, where I feel very alone, where the emptiness of my childhood is starkly evident to me, where I have to have faith and trust that if I reach out I will find good people, while at the same time realizing the disturbing truth how I had to shut down reaching out to my parents who were not good people for me.

    • David says:

      Wow, Larry. I, too, keep revisiting old scenes, feeling the same feeling over and over; though not so much repeating the same feelings anymore. With such hopeless childhoods, so many feelings contributing to a particular state of reacting, I don’t know whether I have simply completed feeling some things or if I am blocking. Or maybe it’s another pivotal feeling altogether. Finally, I am more confident that I have stopped thinking about an emerging feeling.
      Went for coffee at friends home last evening. The wife is totally controlling, and, unsolicited, it was my turn to be told how to run my life, the, “you shoulds ??” Followed by how together she is. I feel sad for her because she is wearing out her body with all of that rigid thinking. Couldn’t unload, it would be unfair and inappropriate, So I put it on hold, simmering, until I got to the end of their long driveway when leaving. Didn’t swallow it this time or bring it home with me. Feeling anger is getting a little easier. At the end of ventilating came the anger that my childhood caused me to develop a life where I have so few choices, that I have to tolerate interacting with some ,”unright,”people just to have a social life. My one,”right,” friend recently had an unidentified cerebral event and is now not very much in the present.
      Hope you are where you’d like to be before retirement, because, I agree, that complicates things.

  97. Donal says:

    David,
    I found your outline of Nova Scotian history very interesting: you know your history, which is always a good thing for a person to be aware of. I did not study the history of Canada ever, except a class I did once which was a survey class of all Native Americans in the different regions of North America. I was not aware of the importance of prisoners and slaves to the economy. Similar to the Irish and English prisoners who were sent to Australia for relatively minor offenses and used for labor.
    Donal

    • David says:

      Very strong parallels, Donal. Canada, and Nova Scotia, in particular was actually a leader in Public Education in my youth, provided a view of world history deemed to be reliable by independent experts. Kids arriving from other provinces and the US were down graded by 1 – 2 class years to catch up. It’s a failing system now. Except, they left out the part about the campaigns of genocide against the 1st peoples. Must have accidentally gotten lost when it went to print…lol Our first Prime Minister, drunken John A MacDonald, who kept a barf pail by his desk, stated in the House of Commons that the demise of every last Indian by whatever means necessary, was his hope.
      I had two wonderful history teachers who made it dynamic. I learn best by listening and observing.
      And true to my nature know more about underdogs than top dogs, except those that were bastards to we underlings… lol

  98. Donal says:

    Maragaret,
    You think I did 20 years of Shotokan? Not me. Perhaps you meant somebody else? Maybe I mistyped something in one of my previous posts
    Donal

  99. Donal says:

    Gretchen,
    I appreciate you asking me about this……got me talking about some important stuff. I do need to remember that it was consistently painful for me in my family, and the ingrained way that it affects me today. For me it’s the way I felt in my family day in and day out over years that caused my pain, perhaps more than specific incidents. I felt bad around them most of the time.
    I have a session with Barry tomorrow so will talk about this more …..unless some thing else comes up in the meantime: you know how that goes! :).
    Thanks,
    Donal.

  100. Donal says:

    Patrick,
    I was not going to post this, as you used to post music videos on the blog on Sunday morning, So, did not want to steal your thunder. However, seeing as you are gone for the day, here is a song relevant to Nova Scotia and emigrant dreams. I always like this song, but the story is a sad one:

    • Larry says:

      Great to hear Stan Rogers. Thanks Donal. His classic, the Northwest Passage, was the anthem of those of us who worked and canoed in the wilderness of northern Canada.

      • Larry says:

        This guy’s music was also an anthem to the north, the wilderness, and working, canoeing and camping in it. Pardon my indulgence. It was my life for 1 1/2 years before I got to LA.

      • David says:

        ” Ah for just one time….” you’re absolutely right great song for those occasions. My 16 ‘ Gates, Stewart, Indian Princess cross, white cedar got crushed when the outdoor kitchen roof collapsed under snow load. A lot of good memories over 33 years in it, and sleeping under it; like a dependable, predictable friend. For now I only have the Mi kmaq style paddles my father carved.

        • Larry says:

          So you do have some cherished memories. I’m glad to hear it.

          • David says:

            For sure; tons; camping trips, canoeing trout fishing, music, parties, swinging, skipping stones, swimming in the creek, ball, hockey, piano, sneaking into the wild life park to feed the moose, with my children are precious. They were my life, after the work day ended. When they were off to sleep I played music with band mates. But now it’s kind of like that song, ” I’m living on things I once done..” I have gained the confidence that I can move forward, and want to. Even going to start, after a 13 year time out, having conversations with a woman who also plays guitar and caterwauls. Scared but going forth…
            My canoe was built for me by my elder friend, the year my youngest daughter died. Thanks, Larry.

    • Patrick says:

      Not a problem Donal – I am kind of amazed you remember that. It feels a long time ago a sort of lost world to me now. Memory is kind of amazing like how MUCH we remember and adding new memories all the time. Doesn’t the brain get ‘full up’ and for each new memory we add does an old one have to go to ‘make room’……………but it probably does not work that way. How does it work or is it a ‘head trip’ to ask that? My bad…………….

  101. Donal says:

    Larry,
    As always, I admire your ability to persevere and connect with people in the present, despite the loneliness and pain of your past.
    I can see the retreat had a positive effect, assuming that you meant socializing and mixing is easier since before the retreat (you may have been referring to a longer period of time). Nonetheless, I think you are making some real progress in connecting to people in the present while being in touch with the old feelings.
    I have been taking more risks with engaging people recently, both socially and at work. I feel I have made some good progress: I can participate in conversations more spontaneously rather than being in my head planning for the right moment to enter. Less barriers in joining in. I used to think the barriers were just reserve, or some over-politeness. In reality, they were just a bunch of crap my parents pun in my head, for want of a more artful expression.
    I feel lighter and more free socially, I also feel freer just to be myself, rather than adhere to some template of how I should behave. That was stuff my Dad put in my head: he taught me to control my personality cognitively so that I would behave properly in a social situation. Plus he had ridiculously old-fashioned notions from the 30s and 40s, seemingly. So, I did not trust myself as he did not trust himself.
    I realize now if I trust myself, socially successful behavior follows naturally, There is no need for all these cognitive rules: I can sense what is appropriate and what is not based on feeling. I do not have to be perfect at it anyway.
    I hope you enjoy the picnic and the socializing today.
    Donal.

    • Larry says:

      How hard David to be trapped in trying to get what you need from the wrong people. I’m glad you are feeling freer socially Donal, more free to be yourself. I was able to enjoy the picnic and socializing today. More people were interested to visit and talk with me, more so than other times. The connections felt good and real and I could let them just be casual instead of needing to cling to people.

      But doing what I need to do sure brings up stuff for me. As soon as I started the 1/2 hour drive home after the picnic, emptiness seeped in and took hold. At home I lay down for a 1/4-1/2 hour nap. I described earlier how I arose very early this morning, restless, my sleep cut short. After my nap, emptiness still haunting me this afternoon, again I put on some music, and again out poured more feelings. So much emptiness in childhood, emptiness that could factor in my present if I don’t do something about it.

      I cried need for my parents, need difficult to let myself feel, need for them now and the need still there from my past, need for them and love for them, but nothing in return from them but cold indifference, neglect, such a tragedy, such a cold brutal reality of life, impacting and ruining mine. That’s the hardest part, seeing and feeling there can and will never be anything from them in return, on this earth, in this reality, for eternity and it would have destroyed me.

      It feels that, especially the childhood feeling is that it is hardly worth going on with life. No wonder I was so shy, quiet, withdrawn and afraid as a kid. But as an adult, I’ve found life is worth the effort. That I mean something to my friends, that I meant something to Noreen, gives my life meaning but these days brings up how little I felt I meant to my parents. I feel great emptiness, but surely if not to my parents, there is someone out there to whom I am worth something.

      • Phil says:

        Larry, I relate a lot to what you say here about feelings of emptiness coming up.That’s a good description of what I experience as well. I have my family around me and people where I work but it happens anyway,For the most part it seems like I don’t have much to complain about, but littlethings and big things in my marriage relationship also trigger these feelings.Some of these things in the relationship I’ve come to realize are my own fault.But I picked someone who maybe isn’t especially sensitive and that has somethingto do with it too. I set myself up for a bit of a struggle. We are together a longtime and it works, but hasn’t always been easy. My parents, especially my mother just didn’t see me and what I needed, I was on my own.Every time those feelings of emptiness come up, and it is a lot of sadness, need,and anger, afterwards I feel a little more whole and able to connect with people,and my relationships are improving as I am better able to express myself.Phil

        Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 23:31:21 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  102. David says:

    Oh Lord, or, Laird, Tiarna, your preference, you wouldn’t dare step foot inside an Irish styled Pub in Nova Scotia without being able to sing or mumble through this lengthy ditty; it’s the 31st and 151st psalm… A,” STANFEST,” in honour of this adopted son is held every year on the weekend immediately following July 1st, Canada Day, at Canso, NWestern tip of NS where the causeway accesses Cape Breton Island.. A 3 day pass is about 100 bucks. His brother Garnet attends, all world class talent.

  103. jackwaddington says:

    The Irish counter insurgency is quite legitimate, in my view, especailly in view of the English repression of the Irish. Not that the English didn’t repress many of their own, due in part as I see it, by means of royalty and the aritocratic structure.

    My take on the whole ethnic/cultural factor is the sense of separation it creates, rather than the coming together of all peoples. In the end we are all mongrel in one form or another. It is why I see ‘PRIDE’ especially the kind of pride that my dad used to instil into us Waddy’s … about being Waddy’s, British and some other none-sense. I bought into it initially, until I began to think about things in a broader sense especially when entering conscripted military service at 17+ and met all the various factions of other British conscripts; learning by listening to many others their accents and in some case dialects, rights, rituals and ways of thinking.

    My education about the differences of people, was advanced by hearing many others idea and desires and where they hoped to take their lives to the point that I often precipitated those discussion. I was further helped in another sense by being gay and finding that I began to meet an array of people outside of the army. It was at this point that I seriously began to question my religious belief, to the point of utterly rejecting it all. Much to my mother’s chargin and upsetness. This began a further rift with my parents and the feeling that I was now “ready” to leave my home town and get to a more cosmapolitan center … London in my case.

    I was futher helped in all this by meeting some very, very bright people, especially in the gay world, and because I was a catch for many of them (thought at the time I did not see it).

    I say all this in the hope that this blog can be used in a like manner. I feel this blog was a brilliant Idea, in that it threw a bunch of us together to fight, figure,enlighten, configure and see our place in this very loose bond of what is called Primal people. I do not see us with any tight bonding, but a place where disagreement, and undertanding that disagreement does not necesitate dislike … of others, or feelings.

    It’s Ok to be sad, angry, terrified and even happy, if and when the feeling takes over. Something that was, and is currently being suggested by other, from our pernts and upbringing. Dunno if I am rattling any cages here, but even if so, isn’t that why we are thrown together on this blog ???????

    Jack

    • David says:

      Agreed. Something seems to be happening, a bit more solicitous ??? I think Maggie sort of set the tone. I’m grateful for that, and for comments that stir me. Sometimes they take a while to get through my hard skull.

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: Maggie sure DID set the tone … it is not that ironic that she, like her buddy Reagan, became demented. If Janov’s writings are anything to go by (and to me they are), it all started in the womb for both of them.

        A thought occurred to me as I was reading your comment:- We have 20, or thereabouts, running for President for this land of the free …. stating they are going to solve the problems of the country, and who knows, the world.

        Haven’t there been about 45 presidents over the course of the last two centuries plus: and we are still, seemingly, not solving the problems … as I’m sure most of them in their political campaigns insisted they would. I’m convinced none of the currents ones will either, but we peons go on thinking they might

        It’s a very fucked-up world.

        Jack

        • David says:

          smoke and mirrors, Jack. They, the politicos, create diversions whilst real intentions run under the surface. I get more out of reading ex politicians, once powerful,who for whatever reason decide to spill the inside workings. The more I read the more it reminds me of as a boy sitting in the dressing room of professional wrestlers, mostly pals, running over the script of the show they’ll be acting out, physical and verbal; professional hockey where the fights are staged, maybe the wins, too… peons or pawns, we…
          Oh could you suss out more directly your first paragraph. Are you throwing down a gauntlet ??

          • jackwaddington says:

            David: If by the first paragraph, you were referring the Maggie & Ronnie one, I don’t get your drift. If on the other hand your are referring to the earlier first paragraph about the “Irish counter insurgency” … then my answer is NO … no gauntlet … I meant it. We British have a lot to account for when and if we “reach the pearly gates” and that goes for the instigation of ‘slavery’ in this nick of the woods.

            I contend that those colonials that crosses the pond … mostly the poor and disenfranchised in the old county … on getting to the new world, saw an opportuinity to enhance their prior poverty stricken situation, and play at being ‘new found aristocrats’. It’s a British imbred mentality … as I saw it … from within.

            I’m sure I’ll come in for some flack from other British folks. BUT, it’s obvious … to me … we fucked-up most of the planet.

            Jack

        • David says:

          Oh Jackie; as Barry said, ” ,… get on the wrong train every stop is the wrong stop…”
          When I said, ” Maggie,” I meant , ” our,” Margaret. I am guessing you thought I meant the barbarian, Margaret Thatcher. I’m asking myself, ” why would Jack, who likes Margaret be calling her demented, and I’ve never read her friend, Reagan, on the blog.” And so I ask for clarification from you, you make an indirect, snipey, remark in another comment about people needing clarification, and so on,an on… misunderstanding is interesting.
          Then as I rehashed this , a bit ago , I had a senior brain fart, and an ” AHA,” moment; Maggie, Reagan…..
          Sorry I got us on the wrong train…
          david

  104. Margaret says:

    > ha, Donal, was there no mentioning of shotokan karate in your comment at all, and twenty years in the same line??
    > maybe I dozed off again this morning, smiley, sorry..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Since coming home from the retreat I’ve been extremely busy although still readingthe blog. We’ve experienced severe car problems, one son was in an accident. He’sfine but the car was very old and is a total loss. Another car died on a camping trip lastweekend at the campground. The engine is shot, another lost car. So all of this has been a lot to deal with and exhausting. These cars had to be towed, junked, and I was drivinga rental car until yesterday. We had to run out and buy a another car. On top of all this I found out I have Lyme disease. It was caughtearly, so it shouldn’t be a problem. On the advice of a friend I’m taking doublethe dose of antibiotics and for a longer time period. I want to make sure it’s clearedup. Besides all of this we have my mother in-law, niece, and nephew visiting and theyneed to be entertained and shown around. All of this has left me little time to dwellon feelings but I do need to. In my normal routine I keep things under control, I havetime and space, but all of this has been stimulating me, and of course, without the support available at the retreat just a few weeks ago.I was debating whether to share all of this or not but decided it could be good toput it all in writing. Phil

      Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:55:52 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • David says:

        the shotokan karate reference was from me. talk about no one reading a guy suffering from never being heard, invisible in a room…

        • Jo says:

          Hey David, I read and listen! I often don’t comment on writings, because I often don’t know what to say or the obvious pain someone expresses is expressed or there’s too much ‘head trip’ stuff for me!

          • David says:

            I was being 3/4 cheeky, Jo, yesterday being a rather settled day. Thanks, though. The other 1/4 though, there was discussion about the Shotokan Karate reference, attributed in a positive way to Donal, ie; explaining his competent character. It really meant nothing in itself to me. I felt no need to yell, , ” It’s me, it’s me.” But, then, no one knew who had made it; ie: my comment hadn’t been read or had not registered with anyone, unimportant, like me. . It touched my feelings of invisibility in a group, the guy who can stand alone in the corner all night, that I don’t matter. Listener was the majority role in my past professional life. In my personal life my role is also listener. If I want to end a conversation all I have to do is become a participant. That leaves me empty, alone, and angry at times. Notoriously always there for others but little reciprocation. Maybe if I didn’t run on so I would be read, or maybe remembered is more accurate.. Like Tom, I wonder at age 69 if I have enough time to grow up even if I were under optimum growing up conditions.

      • Larry says:

        I’m glad you put it in writing Phil. I feel better, more connected, knowing how things are with you. I hope they get better.

      • Jo says:

        That is too much going on Phil, and horrible that Lyme disease was confirmed. Glad you wrote.

      • Leslie says:

        Phil – I am glad you wrote here! So sorry to hear of all the exhausting problems with the cars and most importantly about you having Lyme Disease. That is scary – but so great you got to treatment quickly. What symptoms were you having? – if you want to share.
        I am also glad your son is ok after an accident. Thankful for that I’m sure!
        It will be wonderful for you and your family to vacation soon!
        ox L.

        • Phil says:

          Leslie, There was a black dot on my body which I ignored and didn’t suspect was a tick. Laterit was gone and a rash developed and was spreading. I had chills one night, headache,and fever for several days. At that point I guessed it was Lyme but my doctor thoughtit was cellulitis. The Lyme tests came back positive. My symptoms are finished and were rather mild. It hasn’t effected my joints at all in the way it could have. It is scary because I worry about lingering symptoms and problems. I know several people who have continualsevere problems with this. Thanks for asking. I am looking forward to the upcoming family vacation, we need it.Phil

          Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 07:26:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

          • David says:

            An MD friend who contracted Lyme some years back discovered there were only a very few clinics in North America where they actually knew how to treat Lyme. He said the standard anti biotic dosages and the stock course of treatment protocols were not sufficient to vanquish the varmint, and severe lingering problems, like you say, if a thorough clean up is not followed through first time around. I know he went to an away location, I think Australia. My Naturopath colleague tells me there is a reliable treatment clinic in Arizona. Also the Envirionmental Health Center in Dallas Tx treated Lyme when my friend Dr Ross was on staff there. Or at least he did. But that’s yarons ago.

          • David says:

            Leslie there are two really good Lyme Disease sites on the net; maybe more now. At least one a National Consumer Driven site.

            • Leslie says:

              Thanks David. Hope I never need it – but just wondered about Phil as we just saw him
              @ The Retreat.
              Of course tragic things can happen quickly – as you know. Our 22 year old son just left a couple of hours ago for his close friend’s funeral. His friend was just fooling around and fell from the 4th floor of an apt. blg. under construction last week. Tragic mistake…

  105. Donal says:

    Jack,
    I agree wholeheartedly agree with what you said about this blog. I think it has been a success overall thanks mainly to a few regulars who keep it going through the leaner times, and post openly about their lives, feelings and pain.
    I always find primal people to be more alive, more interesting and more stimulating in general. True, it is a loose bond as you put it: we are all from different backgrounds with different interests and paths in life, to a significant extent. However the fact that we accept the full range of feelings is the unique element that binds us.. Most people see uncomfortable or unpalatable feelings as things to ignore, eradicate or suppress, not to embrace or explore. Therefore, they ignore parts of themselves. Primal people accept the whole spectrum: I think that is why they generally seem more alive, and benefit from more of the good feelings also.
    Whenever I return from retreats back to the world, I can see the contrast clearly,
    Donal.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Donal: That comment of yours was very encouraging to read. We none of us should be afraid of any expression of any feeling, and that includes fear itself. I hope that last line is clear.

      For any that find it confusing, let me know and I will take another shot at it.

      Jack

  106. Patrick, I think you may have misunderstood me. I was only asking you one question. How had the blog helped you ? I don’t think that could be dissected by others as it’s simply your view. The other issue had to do with your comment that you believed there was a connection between Primal and Psychoanalytic ” distancing ” . I was just st explaining that was not the case and that these are very different approaches. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – just because you only ‘asked’ one question does not mean that I will not ‘answer’ two. lol. When you say that ‘it is simply my view and therefore cannot or would not be dissected………………….you would think so wouldn’t you…………….but you would think wrong………………I probably have said hundreds if not thousands of times on this blog what I though was ‘only my view’ but it DID get ‘dissected’.and many times thrown back in my face

      But OK – I am making this more difficult than it needs be or should be but I am gun shy (what a strange word) now. Thinking about it now I suppose it is difficult for me to simply say that I like something and why I like it. But once again I can’t or don’t want to start now. Also for me it is a ‘big’ subject it could get into lots or areas but again I am making it difficult I will try later (promise)

      On the other matter about psycho-analysis and PT I have quite a few thoughts and have started to write something about that too. But again my feeling is for sure that will be ‘dissected’ and found to be a ‘head trip’ I find that so tiring. I mean we all have heads we are probably meant to use them. I accept they can be over used and are a lot………….but then again people condemning ‘head trips’ are using their heads themselves in saying that kind of stuff and often to an extreme degree IMHO.

      For some reason I have been ‘meditating’ (is that more acceptable than ‘thinking’ I am aware if I said ‘feeling’ everything would be ok…………….but these are all only words but some are more primally correct than others) a lot on Janov’s Idea about a ‘neurosis within a neurosis’………….what if it is that is what we are all (mostly) doing? It’s something to ‘think’ about oops I mean ‘feel’ about is that better?

      Sorry to be so ‘meta’ about all this I suppose I am just tired and worn out from all the ‘blog wars’……………I probably will recover.

  107. Anonymous says:

    Hi Everybody
    I am lying in bed night after night, awake, wondering what’s bugging me.
    Ever since I came back from LA, I am completely exhausted, however I can’t get a full night’s sleep.
    I read your posts and I am amazed how articulate you all are, with the description of what is going on with you. You all seem so “adult”. Contrarily, I feel like someone who has no clue. So little.
    I’ve been wondering lately, where to from now on? I have two projects on, which don’t require full time attention. I have the Grumpies. I have my volunteer work, I have Suzi, the kids and the grand kids.
    So why do I feel so alone? Why is it that there is nothing I can think of doing that would full fill my life, give me contentment. A sense of achievement.
    And then I walk on the street, in a mall and can’t help looking at young mothers and their babies.
    I want to scream at them when they are not paying attention to their babies. I look at babies and toddlers, and they always respond to me. How do I do that? I know I don’t have a magic formula.
    Then this morning I wake up and make a list of things I have to do. Go shopping first. Have my hearing aids checked. Turns out it was a batch of bad batteries, not me damaging the bloody things.
    Have my car washed. While that’s happening, I walk around the streets. Keep asking myself……Tom…..surely there is something you want……surely,no? ……Tom….what would give you pleasure……..Come on man, think!!!!! ……there has to be an answer to my dilemma.
    There has to be something life, other than my yearly pilgrimage to LA and Santa Barbara that I could look forward to. You would think so, for someone that has almost everything in life.
    So what is going on?
    And then it hit me. Not the first time, but this time more clearly.
    Everything I have ever done in my life, was to ultimately get what I never got from my mum, and possibly(?) from my dad. Everything I ever touched, any job I took on, any ill fated venture I got into, was to satisfy this deep yearning for physical touch. For a look into my eyes. For bonding. For connecting.
    Surely, there is a time and place where I can get all this?
    I am sixty nine year old, going on to three months of age. Will there be enough time for me to grow up? Can I ever “feel” enough to release me from this hell I live in? Constantly introspective, in a cocoon, feeling traumatised and incredibly anxious.
    What the fuck have they done to me?
    What can I do to help myself?
    What? Feel and Feel and Feel the neglect, the old pain, the terrible longing, over and over again? There has to be a time for a pay off. Surely. IT CANNOT GO ON Infinitely! Surely!
    I am a good boy. I attend to life’s issues. Personal issues. More importantly, I consider myself a “good primal patient”. So when is the pay off? I can’t stand feeling like this. An orphan in my own home. An orphan amongst my friends. An orphan amongst YOU.
    I can’t stand it. Somebody HELP me !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please. I beg of you.
    Tom

    • Larry says:

      Your story sends a chill through me Tom. I’m afraid that when I retire my life will feel as empty as yours feels for you. Barren. Pointless. Meaningless.

      What is a ‘good primal patient’?

  108. Patrick, Well of course you can answer as many questions as you like , I was just saying I only asked you one. I wonder why you are worried about having your answer as to how the blog helped you dissected when that fear has not stopped you from expressing your views on other subjects. You are correct however that your answer might be examined or it might not be but in the end you are simply voicing your personal opinion as to what you have found helpful. But yes, others can express their reactions as well. Maybe it would be more difficult to have this particular answer dissected then other opinions you have discussed here , I’m not sure. Anyway, yes do some more reading and writing on the psychoanalytic issues that concern you and we can certainly discuss it further. Gretchen

  109. Margaret says:

    > David, I am so sorry about having mixed your comment up with one of Donal!!
    > so wow, you are the one with twenty years of shotokan, I only got to the yellow belt in that one!
    > pretty intensive, ipressive you have done it for 20 years.
    > and well, glad to see you and Jack seemed to be talking about two different Maggies, smiley, so far, I don’t think I am demented yet, though my memory is not as good as it used to be for little daily things at least.
    > for studying luckily it still seems to do a fairly good job.
    >
    > Phil, tinking of you! M

    • David says:

      No problem, Maggie. Yes since 1987; the past decade solo after our dojo closed. I see it as a form of walking meditation. Good stretching regime. The only time I ever used my Karate was while practicing kata at a vacation resort. I wanted to be out of sight so as not to give a macho bragging impression and opted to go behind a grounds keeping shed. As a rounded the corner I caught a peripheral image of a ladder coming at my right eye.I raised by forearm in a jodan block fashion block and deflected it. The poor guy carrying the ladder was freaked out, not seeing me, either…laughing aloud…
      david

  110. Anonymous says:

    Hi Everybody
    I am feeling somewhat relived since I have written my piece yesterday. Kept wondering how come? Why the relief? Then I realised that it was because I put pen to paper. Where else can I say it the way IT really is?
    On second thought it is not altogether feeling just lonely. A better description would be, feeling excruciatingly alienated.
    Before I go on, to answer you Larry, about being a good primal patient.
    I put to you that I have regular sessions on the phone. I come regularly to retreats. I listen to my therapist. Or at least that’s what I think. But we all know, that there is no such thing, as a good patient. I was really having myself on.
    Now, back to the beginning. Yes. The real beginning of my therapy.
    I remember attending large groups and being asked what do I want? Being told to ask for what I want. It floored me. How the fuck would I know what I want, other than stopping my constant headaches. Other than stop feeling BAD all the time.
    Only now do I realise that I felt too little to ‘know’ what I want. I couldn’t have verbalised it anyway.
    It’s like you are asking a crying baby, what do you want? What do you need? How the fuck would a baby be able to answer that? No language. No developed brain to be able to know, nor to verbalise.
    Didn’t I come here, to the Primal Institute, for you to take care of me? You’d know what I need!
    What I had to do to earn the above is throw up my present life ( back then), get on a 18 hour flight, find a job to feed my family, find a place to live. Start a new life, in other words.
    And then it’s over to you Primal Therapist. You look after me. You take care of me. You do all the things that will make me whole. So that I can fly back to OZ in eighteen months a Happy Little Vegemite.
    It’s a fair deal?
    No wonder I have been feeling so black. It is slowly becoming obvious, that I will never be taken care of. No matter what I do. I can cry, beg, crawl, yell, scream, which possibly I did when I was in diapers.
    It is amazing that during my first encounters at the beginning of my therapy, I said and felt the core of my pain, without knowing it, without realising. Was I dumb, that unaware?
    Yesterday I started to feel that life wasn’t worth living in the state I was in. No energy, no will for anything, aching in my whole body, thinking that I am starting to feel like the way I look.OLD.
    That would mean that I miss out on life altogether. No joy. No fun. No feeling connected to you, friends, family, anyone. No pleasure in anything. How bleak can it get. Or shall I say BLACK.
    Don’t know where to from here. All I know that “I’am doing life”. I am not living my life. I want my life back. Now!
    Time to go to sleep. It’s 10:58 at night, Monday. I am drained by all this.
    Tom

    • jackwaddington says:

      Tom: Both your responses these last couple of day were very right on. I was tempted to reply to the first one by saying “That last line was IT” … “HELP”. I am sure that is why today you are feeling a lot better. We are all crying out one way or another … each in our own different ways. Keep on blogging. It sounds good to my ears. Correction:- I should say eyes … but if you yell it out laud enough I will might hear you … all the way from OZ 🙂 .

      Take care Tom. Jack

    • Patrick says:

      Tom you go by ‘anonymous’ these days don’t know if you aware anyway just saying………….. and though you don’t talk to me does not stop me talking to you. It’s kinda funny I complain about people ‘ignoring’; me but then I am most unhappy because one particular person WON”T ignore me……………life is strange like that.

      A rather un-necessary opening but I remember this thing at the PI of ‘ask for what you want’ and I had this deep feeling/knowledge and may even have said “what good is that going to do me – I am not going to get it anyway” This applied to my past, to my present life then both outside the PI and at the PI. Like OK I can ‘ask’ but I am not going to ‘get’

      I guess I still feel that way deep down…………….still in that way I found the PI saying that to be quite ineffective. But I agree it is a DEEP problem……………and it’s MY problem.(This should ‘please’; Jack also it makes this post is nice and rounded an un-necessary opening and an un-necessary closing. My attempt at being ‘artistic’ even though that is also quite un-necessary I guess everything right now feels that way……………..necessary the word means ‘needed’ so not only did/do I not ‘get’ what I want I am also ‘un-needed’.

      Aside from my own ‘needs’ I needed to be needed and I ‘acted out’ that a lot. If nobody needs me second best would be if they ‘needed’ me and they did in a way but mostly for their own reasons. So still not needed – not really that is.

      • Patrick says:

        Sorry put slightly wrong “If nobody needs me second best would be if they ‘needed’ me ” should have said if nobody meets my needs second best would be if they needed me” Just wanted that to make sense……………..

        • Patrick says:

          John Lennon’s song from memory “Mama I needed you/you didn’t need me”………….so to be ‘needed’ is important from birth and before life is a two way street. The infant needs the mother (of course) but the Mother ‘needs’ the infant too……………a beautiful balance. Could an infant be that ‘important’ it can and it is………….from small beginning comes great things…………………………

      • jackwaddington says:

        In “The Primal Scream” in the introduction, after Danny had related the story about Ortis: Arthur Janov thought; “oh! that’s worth a try:- call out for Mommy and Daddy”. Apparently Danny demurred, saying to the effect “what’s the point? we’ve done all that before … but Art insisted and eventually Danny started walking round the room calling “mommy, daddy”

        The secret, as I see it, was not in thinking …” What’s the use? … I know I will never get them”. What it seemingly did to Danny was to throw right back to that moment in his babyhood when he perhaps did call out … and no one ever showed up.

        Patrick; you stating:- “what was the point” was your attempt to NOT go there … it seemingly was/is, way too painful … yet as I see it, that was where your therapist was trying to take you … to that very moment way back, when you were calling them and NEEDING them.

        The purpose was NOT TO GET IT …BUT TO RELIVE IT … IN ALL IT’S HORROR.

        Primal therapy … in all it’s simplicity.

        Jack

  111. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > I know you don’t need me to say this, but I feel truely sorry about the Shotokan mixup.
    > I know how it feels to feel invisible and unimportant, a very bad feeling.
    > once for me it also really felt like being ‘disposable’, not pleasant either..
    >
    > it is no excuse, but maybe it helps just a little to describe how i was, barely awake, working my way through about 50 comments that morning, still laying in bed on my back, trying to protect the laptop while listening to all the comments from the kittens that were jumping around all over each other and me..
    >
    > but again, just a description, no excuse.
    > sorry to have trigggered that feeling..
    > it is good to have you here, you have added a lot already to the blog, it would be really nice if one day you could come over to meet us in real life at some retreat, who knows, stranger things can happen.
    > Maggie, the not so barbarian one, smiley

    • David says:

      It’s really ok Margaret; maybe different on another day , ha ha, but that day it was no biggy. The other thing was that no one knew who done it, that is, who wrote it; even people who had read the comment. But I’m so long winded I probably bore people. Even if it’s coming from a feeling place it can, as someone wrote, come across as head trips. That no one recalled reading it would have been the biggy on a raw day. And if you had triggered a feeling,it’s all to my good. Can’t get out what isn’t in there, and if it’s my stuff rattling around in there and I can access it, that’s a gift.
      dave

  112. sylvia says:

    Hi all. I don’t comment on a lot of things either. Jack, I thought Vicki’s poem and gift funny and I laughed out loud. David, I knew that you were the martial arts fella and it seems to fit your personality. Too bad there isn’t a likes or dislike button so the contributor would know their comment was read. Or a “helpful” or “not helpful” selection button like Amazon has on reviews so we could participate at least minimally on our lazy brain-aging days.
    Phil, have a speedy recovery and a fun vacation, bien vacaciones.
    S

  113. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > that sounds like a big feeling that has a huge overall impact, maybe even to finding therapy overall useless, from that very moment. if it is all hopeless to start with, if asking would not help, it is a very uneasy position, I can relate to that,needing something you should not have to ask for, is a bit similar and a familiar feeling to me.
    > yours sounds even more basic still.
    > hope you keep writing about this, it seems important.
    > M

  114. Larry says:

    Hugs. They came so naturally and easily at the retreat and with friends afterwards. Hugs are such a normal, warm, reassuring human contact. Tonight my awareness is opening to how much I miss them, how much I need them, to how much I don’t want to live without them.

    I sometimes still go to my bereavement group meeting that happens once a week. I think I go because it’s a once a week chance and the only place here for me to talk about feelings, and because at the end of the meeting we all exchange hugs. They’re the only hugs I get, except when I visit friends and family in Winnipeg a few times a year. This afternoon I caught up on excercising and didn’t go to the meeting tonight. Tonight I feel I’m emotionally hurting and physically aching, and realize that I want physical human contact. I want to hug and need a hug.

    I’m realizing more how isolated I am. I need at least a hug every day and there is just none in my life. There was when Noreen was in it. I remember the hugs every day in LA and at the retreat and cry, because they felt so normal and right, the human connection, warm, reassuring, grounding, affirming. I cry because the ice in which I’ve been encased is starting to melt under the glare of primal vision that is letting me see I froze solid in childhood because there was no hugging for me.

    When I lived with my aunt and uncle, I remember when I was about 3 my uncle picking me up, holding me, hugging me. I remember my 7 years older than me cousin, like an older sister, picking me up, holding me, hugging me. I remember at 4 moving back home to the farm. Something was wrong, but I couldn’t let myself know what it was. Now I can. There was no hugging. It caused long lasting psychic damage. They did not hug me, and I could not reach out to them for one. I did not matter to them. I couldn’t know. But the hurt registered, in my psyche, in my body, unconsciously. By their indifference, I knew but could not let myself be aware I did not matter to them. It was a shocking, impossible to know discovery, that I’m only now beginning to let myself feel the force of.

    I don’t want to live in a life without hugging. I don’t have to be back there anymore, small, trapped, unable to get it, too helpless and overwhelmed to let myself know i need it. Now I can and have to get it in my life somehow.

    It came so easily and naturally in the primal community at the retreat and in LA. I cry about that now, how easily and natural it should always have been, how there should have been hugging growing up, but how stark, empty, barren and lonely it was, and how cut off from human contact I feel here now. I wonder, are there huggers out there, where I live.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: That is so devastatingly sad. Had that happened to me, I feel sure I would never have survived it

      What else can I say ?

      Jack

    • sylvia says:

      Group Hug, Larry. Sometimes when I see someone on tv in a hug I can almost feel it. Sometimes it’s just nice to touch something alive like my dog, warm and full of life. Touch is so necessary. Hugs never last long enough.
      S

    • Anonymous says:

      Hi Larry
      You are inspirational the way you describe what is going on with you. The way you reach out. The way you take us in.
      Do not stop under any circumstances. I am with you.
      Tom

    • Jo says:

      Larry, try this. 🙂

      • Larry says:

        Ha. Truly though, the way he’s going about it doesn’t feel good I see an act of sensationalism more than caring or warmth.

        • Jo says:

          Mmm; lots of people came for hugs tho..I loved the little girl hugging his leg 😀

          • Larry says:

            I don’t like that the guy is blurring the line between caring, connecting, trusting, bonding hugging, and erotic, sexual, caring (or exploiting), connecting (or objectifying), trusting (or manipulating), bonding (or abusing) hugging. The little kid wouldn’t know the difference. Maybe a lot of adults don’t understand the difference. It took me 28 years of therapy before I felt safe enough to ask Gretchen for a hug. If Gretchen or Barry came to group showing all that skin, paraded in the centre of the room with their pants riding low on their hips, offering free hugs, I’d question their motives, lose trust in them as therapists and leave. I don’t trust the kind of hugs portrayed in the video. To me they are empty calories, lacking nourishment, are maybe even exploitive.

  115. Otto Codingian says:

    Hey, still watching House. this is one of the real good ones. lady under collapsed building and house has to amputate her leg. She says “How bad will it hurt?” House says” Like nothing you ever felt.before”. Nuff said.

    • David says:

      Otto, I take t from your writing that you live in LA ?? I noticed in a recent post you said you would like to re enter therapy at PI but that was unlikely to ever happen. Why not ??

  116. Otto Codingian says:

    That is surely some wailing…

  117. thomas verzar says:

    Hi Mum
    There hardly a day goes by that I don’t think of going out to the cemetery to visit your grave. And next to yours, grandma’s, your mum, and down a few meters, dad’s.
    But really, what I am thinking of is making contact with you. Don’t tell Barry, but I am almost convinced that if I am a good boy, I’ll find a way for you to be there for me. You will rise out of your grave, look at me and HOLD me. It can happen, can’t it? And then I will feel whole.
    “I know you are now all laughing. But there is no end to which I’d go to have that happen to me. So what if I debase myself. All for a good reason. To have my mum. you’d do it too, wouldn’t you? I am not the only crazy person in the universe. Am I?
    Well, if that doesn’t work, I’ll find an other way, to have my mum. That’s all I want. Just my mum. That’s not too much to ask for, is it?”
    Mum! Please, please come to me.
    Come and hold me. Feel me. So I can feel you too. OK mum? And then we will be one. Please mum. I’ll be a good boy. Promise. Just come to me.
    I am hurting now.
    “But don’t tell mum. Don’t scare her away, because she doesn’t know what to do with me. How to be there for me. So long as she is near me, somehow I’ll teach her how to be a good mum. OK?”
    Mum, so long as you are near me, I’ll look after you and then you’ll be a good mum. OK?
    Your loving son.
    Tom

    • Jo says:

      Tom,
      How did you feel writing that?

      • tom Verzar says:

        Hi Jo
        The longing for my “mum” is excruciating. It goes on non-stop, unabated. Nothing in the present fulfils me. IT is always something else that I long for.
        It makes me even angry that I can still perform in the present, look after daily issues, however poorly at times.
        I am constantly hungry. Nothing fulfils me. It is a monumental task to keep my weight down, as I am growing older, the few muscles I have left, are turning into fat. At the same time I constantly sabotage myself, as I will not exercise, or go for a walk , in the fear of running out of energy, and then……..I really won’t make it.
        Nothing is ever “IT” in the present.
        The last few days I have been extremely cold, even in bed. Shivering. And that’s not like me. I have always slept naked and I am always warm. It’s not like it is ever freezing in Sydney.
        Is it my age? Am I approaching an other episode in my past that I have not been concious of? am I thinking too much?
        But lately I’ve been questioning my life. What is it about? What’s the point of throwing myself into anything new, when I know that my history is to pick on something to avoid a feeling, avoid an awareness.
        Has my life been that bad? Really?
        I feel extremely weighed down, hopeless and no clue how to make it better.
        Maybe I will go and have my next session with Barry in the cemetery again. Maybe then I will feel closer to my mum. Is that a crime?
        Would kill for a moment of closeness with my mum. To be one with her. To feel her.
        Will the longing ever stop? It is constant and unending.
        Going to the Grumpies in a few minutes. Doing life.
        Ahhhhhhh. It drives me crazy. This constant need.
        Somebody put a stop to it.Please.
        Tom

        • Jo says:

          Tom, the cold and shivering aren’t symptoms of ageing, as far as I know. Your Grumpies’ll tell you …
          I hope you get some relief writing everything down..
          You’re hurting…

  118. Donal says:

    Jack,
    I agree in general that the “what’s the point” response is the tip of the iceberg: at a deeper level our minds do not want us to go to the pain. It might be a self-fulfilling prophecy also when we begrudgingly and reluctantly try to talk to our parents or some similar thing the therapists might recommend, Also, we may use the “I tried that before and it did not get me into a feeling” line. I realized (mainly because Mark told me so often), we have to try those things many times and quite often nothing dramatic is going to happen. I guess it chips away at your defenses and gets you closer to feeling. I have also heard Mark say to me and others that you have to try the same thing many times: therapy is messy. All of this I realized in time was very true.
    Also, I find that there is some hopelessness when a therapist suggests saying something to my mother or whatever, The tip of another iceberg for me…..
    Bottom line, we may as well use all our opportunities to go towards the pain when prompted. It takes long enough, let’s face it 🙂
    Donal

    • jackwaddington says:

      Donal: No-one, least of all Art Janov wants pain, But then there’s pain and pain. There’s the pain of repressed feelings … that’s bewildering, seemingly unattainable, just lurking there in the background … more or less all the time Then there’s that other pain, for me, just before sinking into the horror to end all horrors.

      Then in hindsight, having gone there, there is this relief like no other. It’s not that even then; going there a second time is any less troubling. I don’t know how to explain this other than to say that “Yes! I’ll let it happen … just a little bit … then to be able to snap out of it before it goes to that “near death’ experience. That to me is the absolute worst.

      So! is there this other part of me that says “ok but make it as painless as possible” Yep, yep and yep. Of course, there’ no way I can make it happen … not that in the final analysis, I will ever do that, cos for me it comes up more often than I would plan it. There will forever feel “there should be an easier way” From my experience so far … there ain’t.

      Jack

  119. Larry says:

    I work in a federal building on a beautiful university campus with lots of green space near a river flowing through the City. My fellow employees, there are probably 300, are for the most part pretty civil, decent, fair minded people. It’s kind of an ivory tower work environment.

    My workmates and I go outside the building to one of the food vendors on campus for our coffee breaks, usually to a Tim Horton’s nearby. Recently the Tim Horton’s is closed for construction, so we went to the main food court on campus. I hadn’t been there for many years. I was shocked by the posters on the garbage bins and pillars. The posters showed a young woman in normal day wear reclined on a sofa, asleep. The poster says, if she didn’t consent, it isn’t sex. I was dismayed that the message wasn’t automatically self-evident, but that it had to be spelled out to the campus males.

    I consider the summer students I work with to be the cream of the crop of young people with good integrity, sense of responsibility, work ethic, and social empathy. Most of them have been a real pleasure to work with, as are my two current male summer students in their very early 20’s. They told me recently of a party gone bad that they had attended and left early. The party was put on by a group of summer students working for our federal employer, students who I might sometimes pass by on my daily work routine. At the party someone slipped a drug into a young lady’s drink.

    I couldn’t believe it. I asked, didn’t she have friends there looking out for her. Apparently she came with girlfriends who got drunk. She was the designated driver, with no intention of getting drunk. Someone slipped a drug in her drink. According to my summer students, the culprit was an outsider, a male friend of one of the male summer students at the party.

    I was shocked. I could kill the guy. I could take a hammer to his privates. The reality of the outside world is such a jarring adjustment for me after the warm, caring empathy of the retreat. I still haven’t fully adjusted to being back here after the retreat. I think I don’t want to. I need to believe my world is a fairly nice place. Maybe it isn’t. How do I live in it then???

    • Jo says:

      Crazy world out there…and this happened to me back in the ’70’s.

      • Larry says:

        What happened, Jo?

        • Jo says:

          I was alone in a bar in Spain, kids (8 and 14) in bed nearby, on the edge of town, chatting with the young bar man. I remember feeling relaxed, as it was a rural area, where friends lived nearby, and he knew my friends. I know I had one drink, as I’d promised myself that before going to bed myself. The next thing I remember was I was lying on the floor and a guy was on top of me using my body, and 2 others were there one doing up his flies..I started to struggle and could barely move. Another guy hovering near the door noticed I was awake, and said something I think to that effect to the others, as they all left suddenly. It took me a while to gather myself, I realised I’d been raped. I have no recollection of how I got there, as it turned out to be a shed at the back. I remember waiting for ages, too frightened, crawling out, heading back, check the kids, then bed. I was numb and shocked. The children were happy to go to a friends house with a pool, I walked alone up in the mountains I remember, trying to get back to feeling ‘normal’. I felt such shame, and never told anyone till one group about 7 years ago. I’m crying on and off as I write, I have hardly let myself go there.

          • Phil says:

            Jo, What a terrible storyPhil

            Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 13:56:41 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

          • Larry says:

            The bastards! I want them to suffer.

            Larry

            • Jo says:

              Phil, Larry, I appreciate your comments.
              It’s good that the event surfaced again because I found there was a lot more to feel about it.. I’m saddened that I carried so much, on top of childhood pain, through decades.

          • Leslie says:

            Shocking and sickening to read about how you had to suffer that night and onwards Jo.
            Wish I could hug you in person right now.
            ox L.

          • jackwaddington says:

            The question of “RAPE” is a subject that I feel is in serious need of discussion not only academically but between the sexes. Further the subject should be started at an age perhaps before puberty between boys and girls. If there is to be an adult involved it would require, as I see it, the adult remain COMPLETELY NEUTRAL unless the discussion began to get out of hand, then the discussion should end, temporarily, and maybe some rules imposed.

            Where I feel a lot of this goes “out of whack” is that sex itself is such a taboo subject, leaving both sexes little knowing how the other feels, particularly over sexual encounters. Education is not where I see real knowledge on the matter, dependent upon what constitutes education.

            Being a gay man I have little to say on the sexual arousal of the sexes to one another, but I do feel I have some sense of knowing the opposite sex since I was a member of a family of two boys and two girls each of us one year apart in ages. Since we all four shared one bedroom, all the way to us each leaving home, and as little children were bathed together, I knew exactly what a girls body looked like. Also we were lucky that my mother did not keep sex and where we each came from, from being discussed.

            It is my feeling that this misunderstanding on the part first of young boys, then later it being ONLY a discussion between boys (presumably the same applied to girls). However in my case when the girls began to reach puberty they did demand some privacy … but not to the exclusion of us being totally separated.

            Maybe others could fill me and the rest of the blog in, with their feelings and ideas on the matter. Merely making it illegal seemingly, has not solved the problem. Education as currently being practiced does not seem to offer any solutions either. It is, after all, a HUGE FEELING experience

            I do feel it would be a worthwhile subject.

            Jack

            • Phil says:

              Jack,What I think is that rape is more about acting out anger than sexual feelings.It certainly isn’t about making love. Discussions of thetype you mention might be worth trying but I’m doubtful of the possible value.Rapists have issues that need to be dealt with on a personal level. It should be made clear that it’s unacceptable and criminal type behavior butthat doesn’t necessarily seem to deter strong impulses driven by sexualized pain.Phil Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:33:22 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

              • David says:

                Sometimes I wonder if we don’t diagnose people who use people, in the case of sex want to ejaculate inside another person regardless of their feelings and rights, with too much of our clinical eye. There are those bastards male and female who simply take what they want in terms of gratification and then there is I think another whole class of insane who get off on degrading , even murdering victims. The only remorse I ever saw was getting caught. And in all of the in family cases both mom and dad, 90% of the time, blamed the kid. And preferred surrendering the children over separating from the abusive parent. In 20% of the cases both parents were perpetrators, in every case both parents were involved, one consciously or unconsciously setting it up.

            • Larry says:

              There will always be people who don’t care about the feelings of others and will take what they want from them. They should be given the chance to reflect upon, feel and make up for the hurt they caused, or shipped to another planet of other people like themselves.

              • jackwaddington says:

                Larry: Whilst I understand your sentiments; I don’t agree to your method.

                I personally would like to attempt a means of prevention. Not sure what that could be, but I see our current methods to not be working … and fear the worst..

                I suspect you think of me as being misguided … and don’t wish to argue that. But somehow, somewhere, I hope there is an answer.

                Jack

                • Larry says:

                  Some people are genetically determined sociopaths/psychopaths, some are that way due to brain injury, and some are due to emotional trauma. We could prevent them by aborting in the womb the genetic deviants, by preventing brain injury, and by preventing emotional trauma.

              • David says:

                I share the sentiment..

          • Larry says:

            You must be getting braver Jo. I’ve never seen you write anything as personal on the blog before. Sounds like writing about it was helpful to you.

            It’s too bad that back then you were the one who felt shame, when it was they who behaved as reprehensible, insensitive, cowardly subhumans.

            Sometimes I wish I carried a gun, or at least a two-by-four, to use on people like that in the act.

            25 years ago one of my summer students came in late to work. He volunteered as a big brother. He had been biking along a main street when a car pulled over out of traffic and parked at the curb in front of them. A lady came scrambling out of the passenger side, tripped and crawled onto the sidewalk. The man inside driving grappled with her as she tried to escape the vehicle. Seconds after she fell he was on top of her and started stabbing her. All my summer student could do was shield his little brother’s eyes from the scene. Needless to say at work the summer student was in shock for awhile. How helpless he must have felt. How handy a gun or two-by-four would have been to use to stop the perpetrator.

    • David says:

      Last year a senior dental student at Dalhousie University attempted to blow the whistle on fellow senior students who were participating in an on line blog, ” The Gentlemen’s Club,” discussing their female class mates in sexual predatory terms. From the description it sounded criminal. The whistle blower, married, with children, suffered most. The identities of the participants were protected. Police decided to let it be settled in house. The university administration closed ranks and what amounts to a sexual consent sensitivity course was imposed, to which the majority of the aggrieved, at risk, female students were announced to agree. The whistle blower, a non participant was ordered to take the same course, and being self identified has the most career ramifications. These predators were allowed to graduate and now will be leering at and potentially offending anesthetized patients.

      For your health Jo I visiting it until you are no longer their victim is the healthy choice. The bastards don’t deserve another second of your life. .

      A raped toddler survivor, I cannot do push ups unless in a group setting. I have no strength and a feeling of foreboding terror engulfs me, and my feeling of incompetence.
      I have felt the physical pan, but never what else remains.

      Sex was just a game, according to my older teen educators, that everyone wanted to play. ” No,” was just a coy way girls said , “Yes.” They didn’t want to be seen as wanting to. My only other bit of education was walking in on my mom getting off the toilet, asking her why she didn’t have , ” a cowboy,” like me and her reply that she was bad when she was my age and, ” they cut it off.” She was also a child multiple rape victim, by the Baptist minister.

      Professionally I also know that there are perhaps as many female perpetrators of both small boys and girls.

  120. Margaret says:

    > reading Larry’s post about the hugs made me realize to which degree my kittens fullfill that need, them for me and me for them.
    > it became specially clear on the moment the one that had remained just a tiny bit cautious at times, started really coming up to me just for cuddles and well, cat hugging, like when they put their front paws on your face spontaneously, without claws, just kind of an affectionate gesture.
    > when he did that it really felt like a load fell off my shoulders, a load that hadn’t been even very clear up to that moment, but the bond with both of them finally falling well into place with all the trust and affection it can keep developing, made me all of a sudden feel so happy and relieved, like things suddennly turned right again.
    > I had been waking up that night feeling my fear, trying not to focus it this time on anything in particular, which seemed to make it more threatening, more like a physical kind of thing which originally it probably was.
    > it is just the onset of the Big fear, the I won’t make it fear, but that onset already felt pretty daunting.
    >
    > but then the kitten thing changed my mood at waking up, they had a few kitten illnesses too, no, not from vaccinating, they had it early on as small kittens and still need to get completely rid of it, but they are getting better now, full of energy and so endearing and funny.
    >
    > they are tiny still, but managed to work out al by themselves how to use the cat doors, which is impressive at their age and without being showed.
    > haha, I am proud of my little guys, smiley!!
    > they look like two rascals, whitish with like a dark mask on their faces, and a dark tail, and just a small dark spot here and there.
    > M

  121. Jo says:

    Margaret, cute kitties! I’m jealous!

  122. Margaret says:

    > dear Jo, don’t know what to say, except I feel I wish I could comfort you by putting my arms around you.
    > it is so courageous of you to write it here. it sounds so very horrible, were you able to tell it to anyone at all at that time?
    > ox M

  123. Jo says:

    Margaret, that’s so sweet, thank you..
    I didn’t tell anyone at all till the group. It got tucked away, and I was a single parent, so juggling domestic life went on..

  124. Fiona says:

    The trouble with allowing an outburst of anger is that is clouds everything – for example – it feels so wrong NOT to be acknowledging Jo and her pain right now. This seems to be the result of a guilt-trip-how-do-you-think other-people-are-feeling-and-don’t-you-think-you-should-think-about-how-they-might-need-you-to-do-for-the-right-thing-now upbringing. I can’t keep living that way. I do not want my actions to be shaped by the expectations of others. I have had enough of that servitude!

    [Please do not take this as anything personal to you Jo – as you know, I am far from unsympathetic or un-affected by your story – I just cant feel or respond to that kind of hurt when I am stuck in another]

    The angry viciousness that I can vomit over people deserving of my ire is terrible. I admit – it has even made me laugh in hindsight, when unleashed on perv hecklers in a white van, but my brother once crowned me with the title of having a ‘diamond tipped tongue’ because I could be so sharp and cutting. Never mind ‘F’ words and regular insults – lets cut straight to the most private personal hurtful stuff! Lets ‘cut ’em’! Stab deep and hurt ’em!

    I did it once to my wonderful woman – but never again will I ‘let go’like that on her! I feel so bad about that even all these years later.

    There is a fitting visual analogy of screwing up a piece of paper into a ball…. and then imagine trying to smooth it out once again. Trying to make it pristine and flat once again is impossible. It will always be crumpled. THAT is how I feel about getting angry AT someone! If I let go and ‘say how I feel’ I might ‘break something’ permanently! Mar it forever so all I am left with is a crumpled piece of paper. Damaged permanently.

    And yet I crave it! I want it! I want the release and the relief. I want the shock in their eyes, and to lash out with the hurt. I enjoy the cuts and the skill I have to ‘see’ the worst thing anyone could possibly say! When I am angry like I am now I want to let it all go.

    ….and then how would I feel tomorrow looking at all the reams of screwed up paper

    …. and now I am thinking of who deserves all of this anger? who is the originator of all this hurt that sits like a festering sore within me?

    I can see a bloodline…
    I have to trace it back
    but I know where it started

  125. David says:

    Just sticking this CDC info on Lyme Disease in here; new information:

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),

    An estimated 300,000 Americans are diagnosed with Lyme disease each year, and the prevalence is rising.

    Since national surveillance began in 1982, the number of annual Lyme cases reported has increased nearly 25-fold.2 The disease is also spreading out geographically.3

    Between 1993 and 1997, 43 counties across the US had a high incidence of Lyme disease. By 2012, the number of hotspots had skyrocketed to 182. As reported by Time Magazine:4

    “‘Lyme disease is not only becoming more rampant in its normal hotspot of the northeast United States, it’s spreading across the country,’ a new report5 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns.

    There is no definitive test for Lyme Disease until well into it’s progression. And the symptomology
    is far more diverse than the original classic description. Most infected people may not have the characteristic rash. It mimics many other culprits, fibromyalgia, arthritis, cellulitis, etc., leaving it thr most under diagnosed and undiagnosed serious infectious disease. The situation is further worsened by there being so few practitioners who know how to treat Lyme Disease. Practitioners should contact the CDC to obtain the proper protocol.

    ‘Over time, the number of counties identified as having high incidence of Lyme disease in the northeastern states increased more than 320 percent,’ researchers write…

    They also note that the disease is appearing in states where it has never been recorded before. One big reason why Lyme disease is spiking, according to the CDC report: climate change.”6

    Eliminating Predators Have Allowed Lyme Disease to Spread and Become More Prevalent

    While deer usually gets the blame for spreading tick-borne disease, rodents are actually the primary threat. According to Dr. Richard Ostfeld, a disease ecologist at the Lyme disease research center:

    “The resurgence of deer population is an overblown factor. Our research suggests that white-footed mice are more important numerically. Basically, mice are a fantastic host for both the tick and [the bacteria that causes Lyme].”

    Ticks are not born with the Lyme spirochetes. It picks up the bacteria when feeding on an infected host.8 Ostfeld’s research indicates that white-footed mice infect 75-95 percent of larval ticks that feed on them, while deer only infect about one percent.

    Urban sprawl and hunting has eliminated many of the mice’s natural predators, allowing populations to grow, and with them comes infected ticks. This year, ticks are epidemic in certain areas of the US, including Illinois.

    The CDC has identified high-risk counties in 17 states, including Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, Pennsylvania, Virginia, New York, Iowa, Michigan, and Minnesota.

  126. Otto Codingian says:

    I am just so exhausted. The heat, the mugginess, my old feeling of exhaustion. I am tired of everything. I cant stand work. These pets we have are so needy. The cat who won’t eat, I am too tired to force feed it. I am too tired to write down when I give it its medicine. The other fucking cat meowling howling at my bedroom door. His cryptocaucus medicine, did I give it to him today or not? All these illnesses we are having seem to be bird or mice feces-related, at least from what I see on the internet. I have mice in the garage, I have a giant tree in the backyard and big spots of white bird shit from some hawks that come around. I walk in the park with the dogs where there are tons of dirty ducks, pigeons, and fart birds, and reclaimed watered lawns. If man thinks he is at the top of the food chain, he better think again. The bugs will outlive us all. I could have screamed in the car because pain is rising (around Otto having died). I could not scream since I was driving Z to get some food and she does not like to hear my pain. I saw a Dachshund puppy in the hall of the hospital today, and I could feel the pain coming up and I squelched it so easy. They don’t want me crying or screaming at work, even though there was a patient roaming around the halls laughing maniacally. I am tired from holding this pain in, but now tonight 9:35 pm, I have no desire to feel it. Fuck this shit. PT is difficult no matter what.

  127. Patrick says:

    I will write down here as it get’s too ‘skinny’ The blog seems to have taken a ‘law and order’ type turn which to me in never particularly a good sign. People usually go to ‘law and order’ when they are out of answers

    Larry – when you talk about ‘aborting deviants’ etc it has a bad ring to it. On primal therapy/theory’s own premises I thought anything and everything could not just be ‘understood’ but it could also be ‘cured’. Now we seem to be heading into the area of punishments and even drastic cruelty. If these ‘perpetrators’ are so cruel your ‘punishments’ don’t sound that different. Also I don’t care for the distinctions you make a lot now about the difference between ‘primal people’ and just ‘regular people’. I guess I am tempted to ‘joke’ I would not mind so much if there WAS a difference lol. When you talked about the Iraqi hair dresser guy and how you ‘dismantled’ his ideas or world view or whatever……………..it sounds so condescending like you KNOW so much or KNOW something he does not. Do you? Where does all this ‘special knowledge’ come from and again my little ‘joke’ I would not mind if it WAS ‘special knowledge’ but I can’t see it from here……………if primal people are so different and so much better the world has been waiting for over 40 years now and we still don’t see the ‘impact’ or the ‘evidence’

    Tom – when you talk about ‘locking’ people up and so on…………….I am tempted to ‘joke’ (a bad habit I have) of saying you mean like Palestinians?. You said “Somebody, very knowledgeable on these matters, said that these perpetrators cannot be “fixed”. ” OK going along that way of thinking can Israels ever be ‘fixed’ or do we just have to suffer them fomenting and creating new wars, murdering and ethnically cleansing the people who have lived their for centuries and whose land it is not theirs, spinning disinformation and lies forever and ever………………..see where I am going with this?. To me you’all have a bad habit now of calling the kettle black the pot seems just as black if not blacker to me.

    It’s fine of course if people want to say all of these things that’s what the blog is about. But to me it shows a ‘movement’ running out of ideas and I suppose it is hardly surprising…………….because frustration sets in due to the lack of promises fulfilled. Janov set primal off on a narrow path and it seems to be getting narrower………………….

    • Tom Verzar says:

      Patrick
      We are lucky to have you around to keep us on the straight and narrow.
      It’s good to have you point out the error of our ways.
      We are blessed with your wisdom about the lack of progress in Primal Therapy and the error of our Primal Therapists.
      Your wisdom outshines all of our collective experience and knowledge to date.
      I bow to your vast and deep knowledge of the issues affecting these stupid Jews and the havoc they bring to the peace loving Arabs.
      Keep up the good work. You are a born to lead us to the Griffin light.
      Tom
      humanitarian. A blessing to us idiotic mortals.
      I can’t wait to join the Griffin Cult, as soon as you announce you are opening your doors to us, wayward primal dilitants.
      I imagine Arthur Janov will be your first applicant. He will see the error if his ways and now to your wisdom.
      Oh mighty Patrick. Hope you will bless us all and forgive us for our

      • Patrick says:

        Thank you Brother Tom. My ‘clinic’ will be opening ‘soon’ a few million light years from now and in a galaxy far far away………….but I am taking ‘contributions’ already! Right now here today…………..please send the all to “C/O “The Ultimate Guru” PO box something or other, Somewhere or other, Main St, USA

  128. Patrick says:

    I had kind of ‘decided’ to stay off the blog for a while at least…………but for some reason it’s hard to do that. What is the reason?

    It’s like (in my mind) I am trying to keep PT from going ‘off the rails’ but now I think well what if it HAS gone off the rails? I think that is a big ‘old feeling’ for me……………trying to fix something that is already maybe un-fixablely broken

    I wonder if that will get me a ‘pass’ from Jack.(I have related it to an ‘old feeling’)………………who knows I know he is not strong on ‘law and order’ also so I have that on my side but probably not enough. With Jack it never is enough at least from me

    I think what is so hard for me to stay off the blog is WHERE ELSE can you do just say whatever is on my mind……………………

    • jackwaddington says:

      Quote:- “I had kind of ‘decided’ to stay off the blog for a while at least…………but for some reason it’s hard to do that. What is the reason?”

      I don’t think it’s too hard to figure out why you kept off the blog and equally, not that hard to figure out why you couldn’t.

      Have you given Gretchen’s question a second thought … before it gets lost to your mindful oblivion?

      Another quote:- “I think that is a big ‘old feeling’ for me……………trying to fix something that is already maybe un-fixablely broken”. I would guess that is correct … BUT (just MY feeling) what got broken and is un-fixable is your own childhood … that, I suspect, is what Leslie Pam tried to guide you towards … least ways “reliving”. It would seem you have made a transference from there; to it being “Primal Therapy that’s gone off the rails” There!!! I made the pass.

      Yet another quote:- “I think what is so hard for me to stay off the blog is WHERE ELSE can you do just say whatever is on my mind……………………”. You could try expressing your FEELINGS … but then that may completely BLOW your mind. Just a thought

      One last quote for today:- “I came here ……. 37 years ago, now from all appearances he was married to Vivian at the time and for several more years after that as far as anyone knew at least”. Be careful; appearances can be deceiving.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        No you didn’t make/give me the ‘pass’ you as usual DENIED me the ‘pass’. What else is new? Nothing ‘new’ for you for sure it’s just as case of yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep yep and yep………………at least you ‘agree’ with yourself if not with much else

  129. Patrick says:

    Speaking of something on my mind…………..I just read this

    From Art Janov’s latest blog about his wife France

    “And oh yes, she is my wife of 42 years”

    I mention this because in the video with Ortiz he also says that. I was inclined to think oh well just a mistake but here he is saying it again and putting it in writing now. OK let me check this……………I came here in September 1978 which was almost 37 years ago, now from all appearances he was married to Vivian at the time and for several more years after that as far as anyone knew at least.

    So does he mean 32 years? But if he does why has now said over 40 twice that I know of. I am sure people will find this ridiculous of me to even mention this…………………but it just seems a bit typical of the guy at least an ‘exaggerator’ if not an out right ‘liar’ though I would say an outright liar also………………It is never good to be ‘led’ by a person who has a problem telling the truth…………….

    • Leslie says:

      Damn SPAM !

      • Patrick says:

        You might think so Leslie and I can even see why you might say that………………still it is a small matter but Janov is an atrocious ‘exaggerator’ always was always will be it seems. All that I say above is ‘factual’ even if I accept the ‘importance’ of it could be questioned.

        Still Janov is so slippery in ‘important’ things it is nice for me at least to ‘catch’ him in a clear un-truth………………and my feeling is there are many more (lies) where that comes from……….

        • jackwaddington says:

          It seems you keep going down the same rabbit hole … expecting a different result.

          All there is down there is the Queen of Hearts, The Mad Hatter, and The Griffin.

          Jack

        • David says:

          Psychology Today reported them separated in the early/mid 70’s; but, ” still working well together.”

        • David says:

          Patrick I’m not at all familiar with any slippery side things to Dr. Janov. What are they ? Being 91, an occasional slip might be a factor. Although he sounds perfectly acute and articulate on his blog.
          david

          • Patrick says:

            David – to me he has been an ‘exaggerator’ pretty much from Day 1.It hit me like a ton of bricks when I came here, like this is NOT what was ‘advertised’. But my ‘belief’ was strong very strong even so I ‘over looked’ a lot. Actually my belief is still strong that’s the funny thing. But my feeling now is primal needs to be taken out of the institution(s) that kind of corral or control it. And that includes Janov himself as strange as that may sound. In ‘spiritual’; matters truth is very important. Someone who fudges and exaggerates and depicts his ‘success’ un-realistically and hides and literally buries his failures is not a trust worthy person..That’s very basic. This example about how long he has been married is a trivial one but still seems a bit typical of him………………loose with the truth. That is such a big problem for me at least.And co-incidence or not I have noticed the same quality in what I call ‘true believers’ you would pretty HAVE to be loose with the truth to overlook all that has gone on over the years.

            • jackwaddington says:

              Quote:- “Actually my belief is still strong that’s the funny thing.” It sure is a very funny thing; and not funny ha ha.

              How is it possible to keep on believing in something and failing to experience it ??????????

              Unless one acknowledges that the act of believing, literally speaking means:- TO NOT KNOW. Once you know, “belief” becomes redundant.

              More crooked thinking … alas.

              Jack

              • Patrick says:

                I truly wonder who “is failing to experience” here……………I know you have ‘anointed’ yourself and ‘appointed’ yourself…………..does not make it true………………PR is a funny thing it often even fools the people who perpetrate it…………….it’s very strange for you to just ‘decide’ I don’t experience something just because I have a problem with the ‘official’ primal world………………that’s not so much crooked thinking as very limited and blinkered thinking…………………but keep on cawing your un-musical hate……………….PR man…………..

                • Patrick says:

                  I was even aware as I used the word ‘belief’ it would be a red rag to the self anointed and self appointed blood hound of primal………….as are and would be words like ‘think’ or ‘mind’…………….I am dealing with someone who mostly just ‘reacts’ and in a highly defensive and aggressive way all at the same time…………..that’s not good PR for you if you could only see PR man………….talk about being predictable…………..all I have to do to rouse this hound is use the WORD ‘think”……………..it’s ONLY a word dude……………..no need to get hung up on words you need it seems to get more hung up on someone hung……………….this is all ‘substitute’ activity for you dude…………..as I say it’s only ‘words’………………

                  • jackwaddington says:

                    It was you who admitted to having failed, so I just put your own words back to you.

                    Other evidence would be ‘paying out’ to go to a retreat and then, I gather, leaving on day one, just because someone refused to shake your hand. Also thinking “what’s the point” when your therapist asks what you hope to get. Berating the founder for personal reasons and completely ignoring what he discovered. You surely must have thought something from your squat in Brixton before coming across the pond and paying out all the money you did … now seemingly regretting it. Yet you seem to persist in “believing”. Isn’t that what RELIGION is all about????? since there is no proof

                    It sure is all just words … BUT just scattering words on the blog, with seemingly little “think-through” suggest a failure to communicate. In the end, all there is to communicate are FEELINGS.

                    I am eagerly awaiting for you to tell Gretchen and the rest of us what it is that like about blogging here. It seems from the way I read you, that you are in perpetual state of misery, which makes me all the more curious to find out why you continue. Perhaps is sort of masachism. It’s hard to fathom any other reason.

                    Lighten up dude. I personally love the banter … can’t you tell.

                    Jack

  130. Sylvia says:

    Tom, very funny. Jo, though I’ve never met you, was so moved by your account.
    It seems a matter of the shut-offed ones using their buried pains to victimize someone. To take it out on someone else and become the perpetrator, totally unconscious of where it comes from. They become less human objectifying people. I think the punishment (as they would see it) would be to lock them up and work a therapy where they descended down to the feelings that made them monsters, to relive their initial pains. If jails were more rehabilitation than holding cells then we could re-humanize more offenders. But as others have said, psychopaths are practically untreatable; so the offender would have to have a conscience somewhere in their self.

    • Patrick says:

      Sylvia – I think this business of ‘psycho-paths’ is over done. I remember once Janov said they could not be treated but a lot of it is a matter of ‘definition’ or more importantly who is doing the defining. A case could be made that Janov himself is a ‘psychopath’…………..lure people with a bunch of exaggerated promises but WORSE never to ‘back off’ or admit he might have ‘exaggerated’ To me that pretty much is a ‘psychopath’ even if I don’t agree with calling people nasty names. Like Tom with ‘locking people up’ it is mostly a matter of who has the power.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Quote:- “……….even if I don’t agree with calling people nasty names” But you do …. nothing else.

        Jack

  131. Sylvia says:

    My definition of a psychopath would be someone who is criminal who tries to hurt someone–murder, rape, someone beyond redemption. But there are benign psychopaths in my opinion. Someone who simply does not have empathy for another, unable to relate to that person’s pain. And perhaps only see things in the light of how it may benefit them.
    I’m sure there are in the psychological dictionary a more accurate definition.

    • Phil says:

      At work today I was looking at a copy of “New York” magazine whileeating lunch. On the cover were photos of 35 women who say BillCosby raped them. Their stories are believable. According to the article there are a total of 46women now with these accusations against Cosby. Probably everyonealready knows about this, his method is to use drugs. It seems likehe’s a psychopath of some kind. I think psychopaths can function in society and fool people into thinking they’re normal.Phil

      Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 18:56:39 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  132. Sylvia says:

    Yes, Phil. Felt physically ill about what he did; a true wolf in sheep’s clothing. Totally unsuspecting women. He seems to have a power fixation, predatory personality lobotomized from its original source probably.

    • Sylvia says:

      By lobotomized I mean he is so ingrained in his abhorrent activities that he can never go back to the reasons they came about. So much for big words.
      S

  133. Larry says:

    Jack, you are always looking for thinking outside the box. Here is some that surprised me.

    “Measures such as anti-bullying programs and monitoring young offenders are not yielding success, says Stephanie van Goozen, ar Cardiff University, UK. Her team decided to try a different approach, using the theory that people who harm others do so because they can’t tell that their victim is distressed. Research has shown that adult psychopaths struggle to recognise others’ fear.

    Van Goozen’s team trained half of a group of 50 boys who had been convicted of a crime to better recognise facial expressions.

    They found that the training significantly improved the boys’ ability to recognise fear, anger and sadness,..

    …in those who’d had training, the crimes were significantly less violent and severe, tending to involve theft rather than physical aggression.”

    • David says:

      Wow, surprised to hear that…. lol… child sexual abuse protection programs, ” Just Say No, ” were a failure; placed some responsibility on the target, and 3 months after exposure all that remained was that the kids had disconnected fears . Like all of the ineffective sensitivity programs which give the image that management is doing something to fix the problem.
      I would suggest the reason they don’t work is that the dialogue is aimed at the wrong part of the brain, the conscious mind, where as you all know their behaviour is directed by the unconscious mind, the one that they don’t talk to. It seems possible to communicate with the sub conscious but it won’t listen if it is preached to or addressed in negative expressions. I use it to recall ,” stored, ” info and song lyrics, and poetry I once , ” knew,” / had memorized; whatever that is…

    • David says:

      AS often guilty, I only read half of the salient comments. Larry I wonder if looking at the pictures of emotional state faces, might make an impression, a feeling impression, reaching their subconscious. ??? That old saying , ” You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, ” has some wisdom to it. Even clinical wisdom. I treated my abused horses with kindness. If that didn’t work, nothing would.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: I find most of the studies I encounter, start of with a theory and then extrapolated from that theory whatever they can to back up the theory. The complete reverse to what I feel I know, Art Janov did. The theory came well after seeking to explain something he, in his honesty and integrity, could not explain immediately, in spite of his 17 years in his therapeutic practice.

      Let me relate something from my own teen years that happened to me. My mother asked me to go and get my brother who she could see climbing onto a roof of a nearby building through the window. I went off and told him to come down and he refused. So! I climbed up after him and started to pull on his leg, and my brother did come down and ran into my mother and said I was bullying him. When my father arrived later that day from work my mother related the story to my father. I immediately ran to the bathroom and sat on the toilet hoping that my father would leave me alone whilst I thought out a strategy.

      My father came bursting into the bathroom and beat me up for bullying. I was so distressed, but I remember very clearly going onto my bed afterwards and I said to myself. I will never cry again.

      My bother and I, in out adulthood, did discuss many of these incident and it was only then I realized he had a whole different take on it all

      It wasn’t until one lover left me that I cried for the first time, as I remember, in my adult life.

      The morale of the story for me was:- who is calling who the bully? Some child having been so hurt in childhood will act-it-out on another, since he/she could never be direct with the parent. That to me is the essence of what I feel Janov means when he states that trauma to the fetus, baby, young child alters the brain to a very profound degree. There’s no reversing the damage. there is, as I perceive it, only the means to re-live it and hence bring the now adult child to his/her own insights with respect to the past. I contend … nothing else will effectively change behavior.

      Jack

    • Larry says:

      The boys trained in the study I quoted might be the benign type of psychopath that Sylvia mentioned on July 30.

      For me the gist of much of the recent blog discussion boils down to there being people out there who would hurt me or would hurt people who I care about, and it drives me crazy that I might be helpless to stop them.

      Noreen died almost 6 years ago. My boss retires today, and my role at work is fading. I feel that I’m being stripped of the mainstays that gave my life meaning and purpose. I’m being robbed, my life ripped apart, and I have no control over it. I’m left back at the beginning again, having to start my life all over again. I cry sadness about the endings.

      I scream feeling afraid, having to find my way and build my life in an unknown future, again, alone.

      I scream as a small child or baby having to cope with change alone, when she should be there. But there’s no one and I am very vulnerable. I need her. I can’t survive on my own alone.

      After ascending from the childhood feelings, after understanding and being relieved of some of the emotional charge of their terror through briefly reliving and feeling them, I feel more capable of getting on with the change coming to my life, more realistically, more competently, in my world that for me is mostly benign most of the time. After ascending from the childhood feelings, I’m able to feel it’s possible to find happiness, meaning, and even love out there, all over again.

  134. Patrick says:

    Let’s try this……………….’mind’…………..’think’………………’belief……………………will this make the blood hound chase.?………..if the past is anything to go by……………………….yes………………….and with this ‘mindset’ (that should get work to get him going)………………….the past is everything……………predictable and controlled and attempt to be controlling………………..

  135. Patrick says:

    Blood hounds of course is a very old and ‘respectable’ English tradition………………they started it with hares but moved on to humans and as I said before they practiced it and perfected it on the Irish and then carried it onto the rest of the world………………still seem to be practicing it on the Irish………………well I am glad this Irish has the strength and self respect not to just lay down and get bloodied and killed………………..

  136. Donal says:

    Larry,
    You last post makes it clear how the present put you in those old feelings. I am glad you are getting some relief.
    Donal

  137. Donal says:

    I feel disconnected. Even my response to Larry above was an attempt to connect with those on the blog. In retrospect, Larry, I do not feel connected to what you are going through: it only makes sense on an intellectual level to me. At this time, I can only relate to it in the context of a cognitive understanding of how therapy works.
    Just let out some anger about reactions I had to 2 specific people today. The feeling is that I am being overpowered by being out-talked, and cannot even express my own feelings never mind defend myself successfully. The reality was not all that dramatic: nothing at all to the third party bystander. I am anticipating that I will need to argue my case with these people.

    • Patrick says:

      I like that kind of honesty…………….not that common here IMHO.But then again Donal is Irish more ‘truthful’ without even trying just an everyday way of being……………..not much of a PR man and thank God for that……………..PR is a son of a bitch to deal with as well since you are always dealing with PR…………..questions about PR will be met with more PR

  138. Donal says:

    low and behold I just got a cal from Larry.

    • “This is Larry speaking.”

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – Welcome back you HAVE been missed at least to speak for myself. Did you get any ‘contributions’ but I told people to send them c/o “The Ultimate Guru”……………..does it also need to say “Superstar” in it. Plus I was not sure about your address and something send to a faraway Galaxy would need to be precise I imagine…………….

        • Whenever I spoke with Larry over the phone it always commenced with the default salutation: “This is Larry speaking.” There’s nothing wrong with it at all, but it always struck me as slightly amusing and distinctive for some reason, perhaps a distant conference room feel to it. I hope Larry doesn’t mind my saying this. Nothing important.

          Thank you for your well wishes, Patrick, but I don’t have much more to say. Just…not much of a point to it. Not to dredge up old frictions for you because I do see you as a much-needed Devil’s Advocate to keep Janov on his toes, but even I had to admit you weren’t very nice to Vicki the other week.

          One time many years ago I told Vicki something that I didn’t imagine would be an insult, but she was hurt by it and it still bothers me slightly even to this day. Did Vicki ever do anything bad to you, Patrick? I may not agree with Vicki on some things, but she was always nice to me and I do have fond memories of visiting her house way back when.

          • jackwaddington says:

            U. superstar G: Quote:- “I do see you as a much-needed Devil’s Advocate to keep Janov on his toes, ”

            I doubt Arthur Janov even reads this blog and even if he did, I sure doubt that Patrick is keeping him on his toes. My take:- neither you nor Pactrick is capable of that.

            It is my feeling that Patrick wishes to re-organise Primal Thereapy such that it makes it easy for him to do the therapy … finally. The current method I suspect Patrick finds too terryfying …. so! needs to make it easier … then he can claim sucess on two fronts. First his own ego that he was able to improve it, and second to feel he’s now done it.

            I feel there is something going on with both of you about Art Janov. Just me feeling however.

            Jack

      • Larry says:

        I noticed you’ve been away for a long time, UG.

        • I’ve been preoccupied and busy with various things. I hope your retirement carries forward well for you, Larry. I’m confident you will find plenty of meaningful activities and experiences to enrich yourself with despite the newly-empty schedule ahead of you.

          Send me an email or call sometime. I’m just going to dart in and out of here once in a while, myself.

  139. Patrick says:

    Another world is calling you………………

  140. Patrick says:

    I hope anyone here does not feel ‘intimidated’. I mean if say Leslie and Jo and say Sandy can all carry on on their “Love Boat”………….they need pay no attention to the likes of Jack and myself just let us carry on in our ‘Hate Boat”………….it takes all kinds to make a world as they say…………….it’s all good lol……………..

  141. Donal says:

    I had a good conversation with Larry last night. It really helped to talk to him about the feelings I wrote about above just before he called me. I also like listening to him talk about his life and feelings.
    Donal

  142. Donal says:

    USG,

    Long tome no hear…hope you are doing well.
    Donal

    • Hi Donal:

      Yes, long time no hear. Thanks for your blessings. I hope you find what you need here on the blog. With the exception of two well-defined and contained problems for me to solve, all else is as well as can be expected at the moment.

  143. Donal says:

    time, not tome.

    • Ultimate Superstar Gurus can indeed write long tomes of wisdom. I appreciated your Freudian slip more than you realize, thank you.

      • jackwaddington says:

        U Superstar G: Quote:- “Ultimate Superstar Gurus can indeed write long tomes of wisdom.”

        I ain’t seen any evidence of wisdom emanating from you. Give us a couple of examples.

        Jack

        • Jack: Sure, the first example would be “N” and a good second example would be “O”.

          • jackwaddington says:

            U Superstar G: Wow! what wisdom.

            So! you are hiding your talents under the bushel. I suspect you’ve been doing that all along. Still I thought this might have been something to share. There seems to be little of it out there in the world.;( .

            Jack

  144. Anonymous says:

    > hi Guru, nice to hear you again!
    > M

  145. Margaret says:

    > hi Guru, nice to hear you again!
    > M

  146. Margaret says:

    > haha, UG, thanks, you put a smile on htis sugar plum’s face, M
    > I find it very nice your grandma called you that occasionally. piranhas go more for the wounded and bleeding, not so much for the sugar plums I guess.. maybe bonobos do so more and flying dogs..
    > haven’t spotted too many of those here..
    > M

  147. David says:

    Huh?? Seems Dr. Jaove still uses the word, ” Primal, ” to describe a feeling event:
    To understand more about how abreaction works, let’s see what happens when a session goes off track.
    As we now know, there is a critical window during a session when the patient brings in a certain feeling, say, helplessness. If the therapist does not act to help the person delve into the feeling it very well may be too late, later on in the session. When the therapist does not strike at the critical moment, the specific feeling/frequency the patient came in with is now gone. What the patient will be left with is abreaction, the discharge of a secondary feeling, not the key one she brought in. That means no resolution and integration of feeling because the feeling has not been felt. When we measure vital functions after the session, the signs move in sporadic fashion. They do not move in coordinated ways but as though each function moves at a different pace. They seem to have lost their cohesion, which tells us that no primal has occurred.

    • Larry says:

      I’m curious why you are puzzled David. I have feeling events that have more to do with pain in the present or recent past that I don’t think of as primals, whereas a feeling event that I’ve unconsciously locked in for decades before I started therapy and finally let into consciousness and let myself experience… to me is a primal.

      • Without arguing the terminology, I will agree that there are especially acute moments that need to be acted upon at a precise time because a bad feeling can slip away from you like an eel in a stream and is lost.
        There have been many times where I was very close to crying about something and I can’t reach the right person in time; it slips away back into the shuffle of my everyday thoughts.

      • David says:

        LOL I was being facetious, Larry, as I have read posts that suggested it was an old fashioned, outdated idea, – concept….primal, primaling… I think it’s the hallmark, the defining of PT. Barry once told me Art wished he’d named it something else, Barry thought, like call it Janovian Therapy, because no one would say they’d just had a , “Janov” LOL Wouldn’t there be a field day with that, if he had named it after himself, feeding into the pompiety perception; LOL although never heard that criticism of Freud, Jung, et al LOL

    • jackwaddington says:

      I find this comment of yours David somewhat confusing, for whereas it apears to be quoting Janov’s recent blog article:- “On the Difference Between Abreaction and Feeling (Part 3/9)” you David, did not clearly show this on reading it. I needed to read Art’s blog comment twice, before I was somewhat clear as to what Art was getting at. For me, it wasn’t his clearest of blog articles

      Let me state as briefly as I can the differences, as I sence them between Art Jonov’s blog, The Primal Institutes blog, and the Primal Support Groups blog that Phil moderates.

      Art’s blog is not open to counter comments, though one can, and I have, but the counter comments are not published

      The Institutes blog is more of a free for all to express themselves about what bloggers think, feel and experience. Giving one another feed-back … hopefully..

      The Primal Support Group is meant for those that are “self Primaling” and as such the moderators try to keep it a safe enviroment for those describing their feelings and primarily feeling expereinces. If a “self Primaler” reads Janov and for reasons of their own are not able to get to Los Angeles OR afford the therapy even if they did get here … then attempt to do the therapy themselves. Then there are the others that read the book/s hope to get the therapy because they are deeply suffering … and without knowing it drop into deep feelings willy nilly. The former to me is at a great risk to ‘abreacting’. the later can, I feel. do “Feeling Therapy”, since I contend, no-one has a monopaly on feelings. “Primal Therapy” belongs to the Janov’s and their respective centers/institutions.

      Each of them have their separate uses, as I see it.

      Back to Art’s recent article. On first reading it did appear to be attacking those “self priamlers” and demonstrating the problems for those attempting to do their own Primal Therapy (for whatever their reasoning was/is). I contend that what is deemed a “reliving” of a past feeling event is not new (1967) and that many instances throughout history seem to demonstrate this. What appeares to be the problem is, in hindsight, related to the persons prior knowlege/learning. (Religeon being, as I sense it, the major one). In other words after ‘re-living’ an old event’, one scrambles to explain it via their current knowledge.

      It is here where I concur totally with Larry. I would prefer to ALWAYS refer to my experiences as FEELINGS. And best I can keep away from the word “Primal” However there are two types of feelings for me. Those that are simply memory related … and the other “RE-LIVING” which is (initially) unbelievably profound, deep and somewhat disturbing, if one is not aware of the difference; it is here I feel one can go of on a tangent; (Abreacting). Janov coined the former for his own good purpose:- “A PRIMAL”

      Jack

      • David says:

        Jack; What tha ??? What post are you replying to ?? It seems that unless everything is labeled here like on an autopsy table it gets misconstrued. I never commented in any intent that would be solicitous of this rebuff. Mind you love rebuffs. Man I’ve got to take a communications course. I generally recognize intent even in the printed word. If not for some ability to interpret the printed page satirists before the day of the tube and emoticoms, and acronyms, would have been hard pressed to eke out a living, perhaps dangling at the end of the noose.. LOL

        • jackwaddington says:

          David: I was replying to the post you made on:- August 2, 2015 at 12:40 pm
          “Huh?? Seems Dr. Jaove still uses the word, ” Primal, ” to describe a feeling event:
          To understand more about how abreaction works, let’s see what happens when a session goes off track”

          I wasn’t sure if you were quoting Janov or just plagiarizing him, by rephrasing his words about abreacting. So! in all conceit and arrogance, decided to put my take on his comment cos I did not think he was as clear as I normally find him to be.

          I was inspired to do this when a friend of mine in Belgrade, Serbia, who is self primaling was disturbed reading this most recent comment by Janov and thought others might also feel the same. My friend in Belgrade was somewhat assured by my response to him .. which pleased me. Hence, I thought to put my take to your comment on the blog.

          Hope that way-lays any further confusion.

          Jack

          • David says:

            Aaa, My purpose in posting that was I was just being weak and humanly facetious after being told I was dated, old fashioned, or whatever for using the word , ” primal, primaling,” because the modern PI is on a different page; and then, I follow Dr. Janov’s blog, have since it’s beginning; and lo and behold here is the man himself using the word, ” Primal, ” and in such a way that it seems an indispensable convenience. That word communicates to the anointed what would take a long paragraph to explain. I never checked my post, but if I use quotation marks then it’s a word for word theft of the author’s voice. I would never chance messing with Dr. J’s Barry’s or Gretchen’s voicings, at least on this blog. If I can twist it to my advantage to sound oh so professorial where I won’t get caught, well maybe. .. LOL

  148. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > maybe an apple might have worked?
    > M

  149. tom verzar says:

    Hi Everybody
    Yesterday, I decided to go out to the cemetery, as I haven’t been there for some months. Not that I don’t think of going there many times during each and every day.
    Why?
    Well, you all know by now my fantasy, that by being near my mum’s grave, the “super natural” will happen, and she will reach out to me, hold me, be one with me.
    Well, anyway, I did go.
    I first stood in front of my mum’s grave. Then I moved across the isle to my grandmother’s grave, my mum’s mum. I am reading her epitaph. Then my eyes drop down onto the flat surface. And there is an inscription that says:
    In memory of my father, Ernest Sonntag, who perished in the Holocaust.
    That’s my mum’s dad, my grandpa, whom I never saw, never met, but none the less I always miss him, want him. He would’ve been my family, someone I could turn to. He starved to death in Flossenburg Concentration Camp, exactly one month before liberation. He survived five months in that hell hole.
    To this day, I have no clue why I get so emotional when I think of him. ” I din’t know deceased people can reach out of their grave, and affect living souls/people. So perhaps my quest for my mum’s attention isn’t so far fetched, after all. Right?
    By now, am crying in front of grandma’s grave.
    Then I walk down forty graves, and there is my dad’s grave. Why were you so mean to me? Why couldn’t we be ‘friends”?
    Then I walk back to my mum’s grave. Mum!!!!!!! Do your staff!!!!!!
    Why didn’t you let me go visiting grandma when I was ten years old in Budapest? Why? I wanted to be with her. Talk to her.
    Then over to my grandma’s grave again. Papa!!!!!! My Papa!!!!!!!!! Where are you??????
    So on and so on. As I approached my dad’s grave again I realised I felt like a dog.
    Yes, like a dog looking for his master. Or looking for a master. Like a poor lonely dog. Wanting something from my master. A pat, a word, anything. I will die on the street. I felt so lonely.
    Where do I belong? Who keeps an eye on me. I am the oldest on this continent, of my family. Who can I go to? I am so, so lonely. Feel like dying.
    And by now an am sobbing in the cemetery. There is a father with two kids visiting a grave. They are looking at me. And I am hurting.
    Don’t know why I am telling you all this.
    Tom

    • Larry says:

      You sound absolutely miserable. Glad you told us.

      • David says:

        Any clues found there, Tom ??

        • tom verzar says:

          Hi David
          I am left clueless. Just hurting. Hurting non-stop.
          Not having had that original bond with my mum, left me disconnected, alienated and incredibly lonely, to which I am only now just starting to own up to.
          My most vivid flashbacks, which aren’t too many of, are always me lonely, ending up me feeling ‘not wanted’.
          One scene, me about 8-9 years old, coming home after an afternoon of playing soccer with friends in the field and finding that nobody was home. ‘How could you do this to me?’ Not even a key, or a note. Just nobody home.
          The next scene is me walking the streets of Bruxelle, Belgium, while immigrating. Not a single friend. Dad at work. Mum home, but eternally unavailable emotionally.
          To lessen the pain of me feeling so lonely, I’d end up going to the movies, 2,3, even 4 times a day, to take my mind of feeling so miserable.
          Next scene is in Sydney. My grandma’s oldest friend found me on a street corner, sobbing my eyes out. I was so utterly lonely. Being a new immigrant, had no friends. Both parents working. Made arrangements after me complaining about not having dinner till late in the evening, with local small restaurant, which would at least feed me five days a week.
          Then the drudgery of going home to an empty place. Devoid of humans, of emotional and physical contact with anyone.
          So David, that’s part of the answer to your question. Not all of it.
          Tom

          • jackwaddington says:

            Geez Tom: so, so, sad. It made my cry a little reading your post.

            Jack

          • David says:

            Bloody horrific Tom; I’m overwhelmed with feelings; mine, and for a suffering fellow person.

          • Larry says:

            I’ve never heard you say so much before, so clearly, about your life, Tom. You and your family endured horrible tragedy, and there was never anyone there to help you, a child, through it. Such a barren life. How DID you survive? No wonder you have such great need! No wonder you don’t want to open to it.

  150. Donal says:

    Larry,
    I also focus on feelings as they come up: similar to Jack I usually avoid thinking in terms of a “primal”. I find it less confusing, though I am aware of the different levels/types of feelings. When: n I have reactions to people I can often tell if it is an old feeling from childhood underpinning it just has that familiar pattern to it even if I am not that deeply in the feeling.
    Sometime I get into deeper, but a lot of the time it comes and goes because I have to stay in the present (like at work, you cannot really go into deep feeling.
    The specifics of primal theory are interesting and relevant, but I find trying to keep track of the the technicalities can cloud stuff if I am just trying to deal with my feelings.and see where they lead. As Barry has often told me once you internalize the process you can trust your feelings to go where they need.
    Donal.

    • Larry says:

      Yeah, I don’t think in terms of a ‘primal’ either.

      • David says:

        I’m curious why you are puzzled David. I have feeling events that have more to do with pain in the present or recent past that I don’t think of as primals, whereas a feeling event that I’ve unconsciously locked in for decades before I started therapy and finally let into consciousness and let myself experience… to me is a primal.

        Then: August 2 to Donal, ” Yeah I don’t think in terms of a” primal,” either.

        You know I don’t use Primal, either, but it’s kind of like trade speak when you meet new like minded but don’t know where they’re at. I differentiate , ” feeling,” which is a life long sensation experience from, ” feelings,” I have feelings for and towards others and about events; and the old feelings. I still hear the word feeling being used to describe what sounds to be a thought to me.
        Once comfortably on this path, I really don’t have any words for it, don’t need any. Have come to trust myself. Sometimes I cry just to have my own little pity party. And that’s my right, too. ‘T’ain’t Primaling, but nice to have compassion for myself.

    • David says:

      Pretty much, yep…

  151. David says:

    Starting chatting with a gal of many similar interests, guitar, natural health practitioner , too; kind in attitude, old hurts; and then she got afraid of opening up her heart again. I stepped back and then that dying feeling, smothering, urge to struggle with her. And I survived. I wonder if that feeling will ever be put to rest. But now labeled, I just feel it until it wanes; 2 + days this time I don’t know what else to do with it; no dialogue comes with it anymore. I suspect it began long before my known kiddie struggles began to keep my mom alive. Whatever. That’s not productive, so I’ll just feel it.

  152. David says:

    Reading Tom’s reply to me, I can’t even describe my triggered feelings; it’s like I get propelled into a place of knowing nothing; the feelings are muted but a whole bunch and my body sort of shuts down; my face masks, open mouthed, and I’m numb. I don’t self monitor, but don’t know how else to send the picture. It happens more and more, ending with profound lonely sadness. The earliest connected scene is xmas after my Grampy died; I was 9. I’ve got no one, now, no one to love me or protect me. I pray to him to come and take me to heaven with him, I don’t want to be here anymore no child should have to hurt like this emmpty hopless helpless.

    • David says:

      This, I jusyt want to die ” session,” left me wiped out. does anyone have any helpful words to offer, where I might go with this feeling ?? It will be appreciated.
      david

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: I hope Gretchen or Barry is able to help you betteer than anyone, in particular me.

        All I can do is offer you support … in-so-far as I once had a total re-living expereince that I was dying and I screamed it out at the top of my lungs in a situation that was not particulary safe … I was in a London clinic for the purpose of getting an antibiotic injection. The whole doctors office seemed scared, which didn’t help me. They finally injected me with a tranquilizer and I slowly came out of it, but remained scared out of my wits, for days afterwards.

        What I did know was that I was transported to a scene in my very early childhood where I was in-fact, dying. I was flooded with insights afterwards, but I was not able to make total sence of it since at the time I had not read “The Primal Screem” All I could think of was:- IF … that was a memory, then all my previous ideas about what constituted memeory when up in flames.

        On reading “The Primal Scream” some seven years later and in particular the introduction about Danny Wilson, the whole thing made total sense to me. I had re-lived a scene from my early childhood and got a whole different take on what my early childhood was about. It was way more than a mere memory.

        Jack

    • Larry says:

      It’s unbelievably brutal what happens to some children, what happened to you.

  153. Donal says:

    I guess this comment is mainly to David and Jack. As I understand, the PI and Art Janov went separate ways a long time back. Not sure if they are still connected somehow, but I did not think so. Is n’t it entirely possible that the Pi and him differ significantly in how they approach the therapy sat this point? Same root theory and they probably agree on the core premises/concepts. However, in talking to patients who were at the PI in the late 70s/early 80s, who still go there, their seems to have been changes in the approach since then. In Big group, I have heard from several, people basically had to speak and get to the feeling pretty quickly, as big groups were actually big.
    Put another way, Barry and Gretchen may not necessarily agree with all that Art publishes on his blog today, though I am sure they would give him the respect that he has earned. both as the founder of the therapy and a fellow professional who worked with them.
    I remember contacting Art’s center before I came to the PI, as I was confused about which one to go to. Talking to Atty and then Barry via phone I got the sense the PI was down to earth, with approachable, nice, normal kind of people with a sense of humor. It made me feel comfortable and safe.
    When I started doing therapy at the PI, I like the human approach and was glad there were no big deal made about primals and primalling, I think the therapists rarely use that term. Also, there was no pressure to go anywhere with your feeling,
    I did not really get the same sense from Art’s place, For one thing his website materials seemed to contain the premise that getting into a primal was a goal. This seemed worong to me then, and I learned reasonably soon that too much expectation is bad for getting to stuff. A couple of people I talked to on the phone at Art’s place seemed a little, well……off. Certainly they did not have a personalilty like Atty, who is naturally good with talking to people, However, one of the therapists at Art’s place who emailed me a few times seemed nice. By the time she contacted me, however, I had started my 3 week at the PI with Mark.
    Donal

    • David says:

      The PI references Dr. Janov at the top of the page and on the Home Page as resources to follow. Dr. Janov’s body of ongoing research is impressive. Have you read the New Primal Scream, for starters.
      cheers
      david

    • jackwaddington says:

      Donal: I will take a shot at answering some of the points you make here, but the real answers lie with Gretchen and Barry

      My take was that Art left, initially to start an Institute in France, particularly since he’s fluent in French and his wife France is French. For reasons, unknown to me, it did not reach his expectations, so then he returned to Los Angeles and, I understand, he asked the staff at the Institute, if he could return. I gather that the majority vote was “no”. So he then decided to open his own center here.

      Art has always wanted that there was back-up to progress from patients through, primarily, vital signs, where as the Institute, under Vivian did not consider that to be necessary. Seemingly, the patient themselves designated their own progress. Art wanted to take a more scientific rout. I gather his primary interest was to promote his findings (discovery of Primal Pain and his formulation of Primal Theory) from a scientific bases. As I see it, thinking more into the future. Vivian, I gather, did not see the purpose of that. I suspect only the future will decide which was the more expedient way.

      Since I never went to the Primal Center I know no other difference. Both insist on an extensive internship for training of therapist. In both cases the goal (if that is the right word) is to take the patient into a more expressive feeling-full-ness, and both feel that is the route to better health. Art’s insistence on the word “Primal”, is obvious to me, since he coined the word in the first place.

      I understand although the goal is the same, that both experiment with ways to induce that expressiveness of feelings in patients.

      I don’t believe there is an animosity between the therapist at either place, but there is the feeling I gather to keep them as separate entities … least-ways for now

      If I am wrong on some of these matters I would be willing to be corrected.

      Jack

      • David says:

        My information is probably just skuttlebut, conjecture and urban myth; but the story told to me on arrival in LA in 86 was that as part of a divorce settlement that Arthur agreed to a , ” no competition,” clause, and sole ownership of the P I was vested in Vivian. Had I known he was no longer at the PI, I might not have come, an emotional based decision, ” the only one skilled enough to cure a difficult case like me.”
        When he returned, the talk in the hallway, at the Institutes Big Group, was that the, ” no competition,” clause had expired.

        Any of this has at least a 100 % chance of being totally wrong, rumor, invention, fiction…

        Further I heard that Dr. Janov’s envisioned new project was to train and certify therapists. For that patients were needed.Then the talk was that many advanced post primal patients presented themselves for therapy at his clinic hoping he might be able to help with issues that had not resolved although they were no longer neurotic and had accessed first line pain. That evolved into chatter about an extremely exciting breakthrough, pre-birth, dare I say it, ” Primals,” that indeed resolved issues such as homosexuality. It was said that that development was accidental, in that they, “Janov clinic,” had no idea what they could possibly offer these patients and just sat with them while they emerged into wordless feelings. And could not relate any impressions as to what they were experiencing. Apparently medical specialists were employed to figure out what was happening using vital signs, blood and hormonal testing. That’s as much as I recall, My own circumstances caused me to have to leave for home to care for my children. And my contact with friends, P I patients and post patients, gradually dwindled.
        Then a friend recommended The New Primal Scream to me. I expected it to be the original work, simply re-released. It was much more. Some of what I say above could be my recall of LA conversations plus info from the New P S.
        That old, “hope thing,” still reverberates inside me, and with utmost confidence and respect for the competence of the P I; that if I could only be treated by Dr. Janov, the rest of my life could better. At age 69, there’s likely only maybe 40 competent years left…
        That’s not real unless I win the lottery, so I’ll dog along. Barry et al helped me put some tools in the tool box and a process I trust. Like the old country song says, ” It’s not real love but it’s not all bad..”
        david

    • David says:

      Perhaps Barry or Gretchen would like to speak for themselves/the PI as to their
      thoughts on the PI vs Janov’s Primal Center approach.to therapy.;

      PI “:Our Links

      Barry’s Smart People Podcast
      P.I. Chatroom (Hint: janov)
      PrimalInstitute.com”

      Oh, , ” Anyone,” how do I log onto the PI Homepage that Gretchen referenced.in her post to me. I’m computer challenged… thanks, david

  154. Larry says:

    I want to share this music video, for the few who may be interested. If I wasn’t in PT, I’d be running for the hills. So glad that instead I have a chance to make something of my life, and it keeps always getting a little better.

    I can tell you how the story goes
    If you die, if you just get old
    All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
    Like your mother and your father too
    All grown up but they’re just like you
    And you’re going to do it all anew
    Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Another day older
    Everyone you knew
    All chasing bells and ahead of themselves
    And you know you can’t move
    One step forward
    Step right back
    Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
    Run for the hills, don’t look back

    Everything you see is double
    Any way you go you lose
    When you’re lost in the woods and
    Alone in the world too
    Another day older
    And another day we go, oh no
    Alone again with all these people

    I can tell you how the story goes
    If you die, if you just get old
    All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
    Like your mother and your father too
    All grown up but they’re just like you
    And you’re going to do it all anew
    Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Wanna live like an animal
    By the skin of your teeth
    Put your good face on, not foolin’ no one
    You’re a jackrabbit underneath
    One step forward, step right back
    Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
    Run for the hills, don’t look back
    Don’t look back, don’t look back
    Run for the hills, honey, run for the hills, honey
    Run for the hills, don’t look back

    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Everything you see is double
    Any way you go you lose
    When you’re lost in the woods and
    Alone in the world too
    One step forward, step right back

    I can tell you how the story goes
    If you die, if you just get old
    All together or all alone, all alone, all alone
    Like your mother and your father too
    All grown up but they’re just like you
    And you’re going to do it all anew
    Better run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run
    Da da da, da da da, da da da
    Run for the hills, run for the hills, run

    • David says:

      Larry, I’m glad for you that you recognize things keep getting a little better. and thanks for the song.
      david

      A here and now fear, since my twisted spinal cord injury last OCT, I began to wonder if I would ever walk a normal, and pain free distance again. Finally every day it’s a bit better and every regression is for shorter periods and intensity, and I’m daring to hope. Now a lot of muscle to rebuild, soon I hope…

      • Larry says:

        hope, so easily crushed, so precious to have, so hard to let go of when there really is no reason for it. I’m glad for you David that you feel improvement.

    • Leslie says:

      I enjoyed the song, and energy of the people singing this song Larry – thanks.

    • Larry says:

      David and Leslie, I’m glad you enjoyed the song. I like stumbling upon such introspective lyrics almost approaching our primal understanding of our inner life, by a group of young people making leading edge, dynamic music.

      • Larry says:

        I especially like it when the lyrics relate to what is going on in my life. I feel on an edge of aching to open up and live, but hurting, like at a retreat, because to open up is to understand I shut down and died because my parents were dead to me.

  155. Larry says:

    Another long day at work today, the second in a row….17 hours yesterday, 13 hours today, long distance travel to research plots and work that needs to get done before the rains starting this evening.

    I work with a really good bunch of young people. Today was the last day I’ll see one of the 3 fellas helping me this summer. As we gathered near our vehicles at the field site late in the evening, the work done, he said good-bye, thanked me for a really good summer, and gave me a hug. The hug surprised me. I didn’t think they did that, and said so. The 3 of them said, it’s normal for us, we hug our friends, guys and gals. Real men do, they said. I said yeah, I’m with that, I just didn’t think guys in Saskatchewan hugged. I said to them, you’re real quality people.

    It feels really good to know there are young people like them out there. They’d fit right in at a retreat.

    Working so many long hours outdoors, sun up to sundown, and the long 3.5 hours drive one way across rolling prairie, partly wooded, takes my mind out of it’s routine and frees it to roam, especially while driving home at night, when the long long ribbon of asphalt becomes mine as it guides me home through now unfamiliar looking, moonlight traced dark terrain. I think of the migration patterns of people, of the aboriginals pushed off the land, the prairie tamed, my grandparents moving in to start a new life, the hard work, the uncertainty, the depression of the 30’s, they’re finding ways to survive and find joy and stay healthy, and then they get old and die, another generation gone, another one created. I think of the coming and going of the great ice sheets, of the extermination of species, of massive extinctions in the far past due the planet freezing, or overheating. And all the while, the same moon, the same sun appeared to whoever or whatever had eyes to see or senses to detect. The sun, the moon, the rumblings of our planet, unchanged for eaons of time, are oblivious to life.

    We are alone, our life precarious, brief, precious. Our cultural environment is our invention that takes our mind off how alone we are in the natural environment. If we are lucky we’re here for a lifetime, really a brief time. I was a baby not so long ago and my parents young. Soon it’s over and we are dust. Now is what matters most, is what to appreciate the most, is what to make the most of.

    Primal therapy helps me to do that, thank goodness. Otherwise I’d be running for the hills, looking for a way out, wanting to run from the cold, emotionally dead trap my parents were in.

    • vicki says:

      I like this, Larry, especially your description of “people/planet history” (for lack of a better term) in the longest paragraph.

      • Larry: Our lives are definitely fragile, frail, and infinitesimally small against the backdrop of a huge world. The thought that we are doomed to dissolving into nothing but unintelligible dust forever can be a heavy weight for many of us to bear. At least stillborn babies didn’t have to worry about these things, for instance. It was just an Oriental Express for the stillborns from start to finish, a bit like a short recursive function with almost no operations without all the elaborate hassle of Primal blogging along the way.

  156. Donal says:

    David,
    For the record, I do have a lot of respect for Art Janov’s work: I believe he does take a scientific approach, and perseveres with researching and developing the therapy more. Most others would have quite at this point: unfortunately primal therapy does not receive the widespread recognition which I think it should. As I understand it, Art has had more than his fair share of criticism from others in his profession.
    I did read The New Primal Scream shortly after it was first published, and still have a copy that I pick up every so often. He explained well how the therapy had evolved since the early days when he published the original book.
    I did not notice the Pi references on Art’s webpage: assuring to know that he recognizes the PI as a good source.
    Donal

    • Donal,
      I remember ordering the “New Primal Scream” back in 1993 after reading Janov’s “Perspective on Cults” editorial/commentary in the LA times (which was in response to the David Koresh Waco siege). I directly ordered it from Art’s training center and marveled at how the book was so new it had a fresh forest wood smell.
      I gave my copy away a long time ago, but I still remember the very first paragraph Art wrote: ‘The world is having a nervous breakdown. People are irritable, aggressive, tense, and anxious. The world is coming apart at the seams. Valium is the glue holding it together.”

      Henceforth, I knew I was in for a masochistic treat!

      I don’t argue against the idea that the world is seriously whacked, but the way Art describes how the world came about being in such a dire condition is not telling the whole story at all.

      I already tried to explain to the blog a long time ago how we have hundreds of millions of 4,000 pound vehicular missiles (aka motor vehicles) hurtling about at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour that are tearing apart millions of frail 150-pound corporeal bodies (aka mass-produced human Barbie dolls) each year. Individual first-line, second-line, and third-line emotional traumas don’t even begin to approach a culturally immense, roaring display of horsepower replete with chance-based, modern-day Aztec human sacrifices.

      • David says:

        do you know the story of the little boy walking the beach, tossing marooned star fish back into the ocean. Admonished for the nonsensical comparative import of his effort he said, ” It matters to this one.” I have supported pro choice and freely available abortions for years. I’d have chosen dying one death , even at delivery than the price I paid for being born. For those of us who are so forced, I think we should have treatment available that can improve quality of life. It makes it even more defensible to share our discovery.

    • David says:

      Actually I was referencing that on The Primal Institute they link to Dr. Janov.

    • David says:

      thanks Margaret; yeah, In that feeling I feel numb, anesthetized, breath very slow and shallow, inanimate. Just talking about it now triggered it, even the sensation of something wrapped around my neck. So feelings must be closer to the top. agreed just feel it as it comes. if I don’t ever finish with feeling it, that’s ok , too. At least I can feel. And know my recollection of early life is real. I’m not crazy or a liar as my mother and sibs would say. I’m freer to live than they with their alcohol and religion soaked lives.
      Had a wretched amount of pain yesterday AM, opened my eyes and the story of my daughter’s last days was already playing. The part where I learned they had literally dissected her precious little body, mutilated it beyond any recognition; the mortician, a friend, had to reconstruct her. That released so much pain. How any one could have been so cruel,and then assume a challenging position.

      David

  157. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > I know that one where your face does its own thing, mouth wide open.
    > usually my breath starts ‘stopping’ for a while repeatedly as well, with gasps in between.
    >
    > I usually just let it happen, if I had to put some explanation about it at this time, I’d say it feels like some kind of tension before birth, like labour setting in and I also feel it is just an onset of bad things to follow..
    >
    > it often is just a fase of another feeling, my crying often seems to go from present to earlier to baby and back to present sadness.
    >
    > or just an odd tear , there is no rule to follow about this, just you keep following your instincts.
    > one useful quote from Barry, always seemed ‘don’t scratch when it does not itch’.
    > no chasing of feelings, simply allowing them to come up when they present themselves.
    >
    > it feels good to me to hear you say you do not monitor yourself when something comes up, that is all it takes really.
    >
    > for me often whe I allow myself to let the crying stop all of a sudden my body takes over and it starts again when necessary.
    >
    > it also helps me to stay focused on what triggered it, or the contents of where it leads me.
    > pretty obvious, but well, all those things are subtle and also individually slightly different I guess.
    >
    > all of this might not be of help to you, but I can only give you my own experience with what you seem to describe.
    >
    > it sounds terrible to want to die as a nine year old.
    > I only know how hard it is to feel that way sometimes at waking up early in the morning, by now all I can think of for comfort then is the rational knowledge I remind myself of then I will feel better later on in the day, that feeling of utter despair wil have dissipated while functioning..
    >
    > hope you can have a nice life and feel what comes up, which seems all we can do.
    >
    > I have come to the conclusion feeling or having primal stuff dealt with does not make it all easy and ok and happy, but certainly does make it deeper, less shallow, more ‘in control’ than just led by random impulses..
    >
    > which reminds me of something I always wonder about, Tom, apart from being faced with your huge pain on a day to day basis, do you feel therapy has helped you, and if so in which way?
    > M

    • tom verzar says:

      Hi Margaret
      “Has therapy helped me, and if so in which way?”
      It’s a good question. It made me think, how will I reply to you. There is no short answer, I think. It’s somewhat more complex than a yes or no.
      Have to go back to the beginning. What prompted me to seek help, and how did I get here, meaning Primal Therapy, in 1983.
      I’ve ended up in very high pressure jobs. Project Manager on high rise office buildings and major shopping malls. Worked usually seven days a week. I was married and in 1974 my son was born in Melbourne.
      I ended up with a headache every single day, a band around my chest constricting me breathing. There was nothing wrong physically. So that meant that ‘ I felt BAD all the time’.
      So I started to look around how to help myself. First I was referred to a physiotherapist, as I could barely move my neck, I was so uptight. He in turn, after a few months of treatment referred me to an other place, where people meditated and then shared their feelings.
      Now that was new to me.
      I mean talking about feelings. I do not recall ever having a discussion with my parents about ‘feelings’. And then my ex wife brought home the Primal Scream for me to read.
      After reading a few pages, I knew I wanted to do Primal Therapy. It felt right, it felt like nobody was fucking with me. I am thinking here of my father.
      So we, as a family ended up in LA in 1983.
      So back to now. Much to my chagrin, I slowly realised that there wan’t a single decision I ever made, that wasn’t coloured, influenced by old feelings. I had no idea how repressed I was. I had no idea how depressed I was.
      Yes, I am still somewhat repressed and depressed. But not like it used to be. I am still coming to terms, as I realise more and more how my parents, our history and our circumstances influenced my life. And it still is to a lesser degree.
      I’ve been an incorrigible optimist. For ever hoping for a better life. For ever hoping that I will get IT. IT being what I missed out on. And as you and we all know, this isn’t going to happen. Not now, not ever. But it doesn’t stop me going out to the cemetery to ‘make contact with my mum, dad and grandma’. The ache to be united with my mum is unbearable. What kills me that nothing in the present makes up for my loss. I am constantly looking for IT.
      On an other note, I think I am a better man. More compassionate. More giving. Even more tolerant than I used to be. I measure my success in therapy as to how my son is doing. How do Suzi’s kids relate to me. How the grand kids come to me. The friendships I’ve developed over the years.
      So if I was to measure my success in therapy, I can say that I’ve become a more feeling and concious person.
      Is that what I was looking for? No. I wanted to be happy, carefree and enjoying life. I wanted to stop feeling weighed down. Depressed. I didn’t even know the word hopeless before therapy.
      Am I where I wanted to be when I started on my quest? No. Probably never will be. Cannot undo the tremendous damage my parents inflicted on me. The hurt, ache and longing I was left with.
      I hope this answers your question somewhat. It stirred me up. I didn’t want to take stock as to where I am, because that would, and indeed told me how much further I have to go. I hope I won’t run out of time.
      Be well.
      Tom

      • Fiona says:

        Thanks Tom! Wonderfully honest! X 🙂

      • Larry says:

        Ummm. I think a lot of us are going to run out of time. If not all, in my experience it’s better to at least get some of the unconscious buried feelings resolved and some of the walls and defenses dismantled. Well worth the journey in my opinion, even if we run out of time before we reach the end.

        • Leslie says:

          Yes, I agree – whenever the end is there will always be more to uncover and explore with ourselves and others. Hopefully before then – the good outweighs the bad. The hard times come – whether by random fluke, horrid accidents/injury etc. and/ or triggers to the past .Reacting in the present and then being aware of the connection to the past is huge for me. It makes sense that something can affect each of us to a different degree.

          I remember being so afraid to commit to therapy – what if it too wouldn’t work…I asked Gretchen “Well, what would happen if I did therapy and then god forbid had an accident and became a quadriplegic?” Gretchen’s answer of ” I guess you’d then be a quadriplegic who has done Primal Therapy” set it straight.

          The places I can go with myself, with B. and our relationship, our children, family and friends is so much deeper than it could/would have ever been. I know that, count on it and love it!
          L.

          • If you carry spare watches in your pockets until your very last day, you are guaranteed to never run out of time..

            • jackwaddington says:

              Quote:- “If you carry spare watches in your pockets until your very last day, you are guaranteed to never run out of time..” … BUT you will run out of life.

              I take it that is another example of your wisdom.

              Jack

              • No, Jack, it’s called making up a terrible pun on the spot just because I felt like writing some graffiti. A careless scribble on the back of a napkin. It has nothing to do with my infinitely awe-inspiring wisdom.

                • jackwaddington says:

                  Oh! so the wisdom is still being kept under wraps. I gather another move towards what you deem “privacy” Mmmmm??????

                  Jack

            • David says:

              Even without one of those damned, ” LOL’s,” I will take the risk and interpret the watch remark as brilliant humour, and laugh my proverbial ass off; ass as not in donkey…

              • Well thank you, David, That was a nice compliment and perhaps the very first I’ve noticed from you. As for the watch pun, I really was just…lazily scribbling some graffiti
                down for fun and not caring whether anyone was impressed or thought it was funny.

                Much of the time when someone writes down something not giving a damn what others think, you will oftentimes see a virtual wasteland of the ordinariness of that person along with occasional glimmers of the very best in that person….little diamond-like morsels in the vast roughness of everyday mundane writings.

                • jackwaddington says:

                  Quote:- “Much of the time when someone writes down something not giving a damn what others think, you will oftentimes see a virtual wasteland”.

                  So what was the big deal about wanting to hide behind a pseudonym, and especially one that seems to spell out ‘one of wisdom’?????

                  “N” & “O” don ‘t feel like wisdom. BUT then I ain’t no Guru OR, Superstar. However, I would still like to read some real wisdom from within this wasteland..

                  Jack

                  • Jack: Why do you …..feel….that Sylvia, Jo, Vicki, Otto, Phil, Larry, Patrick, Donal, Gretchen, Barry, Leslie, Fiona, Margaret, and Tom all are quite accepting and supportive towards my being the Ultimate Superstar Guru? Aside from a brief power struggle with David early on to maintain my autocratic status, you are the only one who has been persistently hot and bothered by it over the course of time.

                    With a solid 86% of the blog (if not more!) being completely accepting of my perspicaciousness, I would venture to say your protestations speak volumes more about yourself than it ever does about me.

                    I am quite at peace and serene about this current situation. Perhaps you would like to spend a bit more time probing the roots of your discontent with those of us here who are more accepting of the Guru?

                    • jackwaddington says:

                      I totally accept that there is something going on with me about someone doing Primal therapy (which if have it right) is about self revalations of the unconscious parts of oneself and then seeing another that seemingly is hiding behind a psuedenym and of late adding to it. There are many pseudonyms out there, but yours strikes me as being very conceited, and I feel strongly that you actually believe you have “tomes of wisdom” I have repeatedly said both privately to you and on this blog that I see little or no evidence of that wisdom.

                      Futher, in my stint of ten years in Ibiza in the land of the hippies before coming to do therapy, I became aware of many guru’s and read some of the writing of many. I do not see you falling into that category. But then that’s just me. Even as an actor I saw little reason for changing my name and of those I met that did, I always felt that there was a great element of self promotion (for actors and acting there may be some justification of that as it is an attempt to promotes a livelihood).

                      You mention the 86% approval rating you are getting. That completely ‘flies over my cucoo’s nest’ Margaret is the only one I see that seems to miss you. Also on this matter I felt you were making fun out a serious comment by Leslie … again to me, completey making a joke of it. I did not like that. Of course I should have said just that. I don’t like your ‘schnide’ remark about Art Janov either, “Just an old man” and it did touch a nerve in me that you have stated that you do not like the word “Neurosis”. I suspect, though I could be wrong, that you actually believe you are not neurotic, and perhaps hope you never were.

                      Suggestion (for what it s worth), tell us a little more about yourself; what goes on with you, rather that your very adept use of the English language, especially it’s idioms.

                      Hopefully you are now more aware of what is going on with me about you.

                      Jack

                • David says:

                  i’m quite impressed with a fair bit of what you say, and with your lack of need to fire back. You considered opinions seem multifaceted, not aimless ramblings. Someone at PI told me once that worse than being misunderstood, is being ununderstood. So I find you refreshing.

          • Sylvia says:

            I liked your post Leslie. Even now (as opposed to your beginning of therapy), because we invest so much of ourselves going through pains and hurting again just to get rid of their effects (neurosis) and have a life, we don’t want to be cheated again in the chance we could lose what we worked for.
            I realize too, that life’s circumstances can change quickly and glad that I can engage in life’s moments in the here and now and enjoy what I have. I remember worrying about dying at 60 when I was 40; but now if I worry (and it seems I must) it is about more immediate things like health and safety for me and the ones I care about.
            I think one of the best things about connecting to old feelings is that I have my memories back of the good times too that were buried in with the pain.
            S

  158. Margaret says:

    > Tom,
    > your comment touched me deeply, thanks for your elaborate reply.
    > you mentioning how you became a more feeling and conscious person strongly resonated with me, even when happiness is not always there, for me either, it is still very rewarding to be ‘deeper’, to be more able to really feel both the ups and downs, ad to be more conscious of who I am.
    >
    > you sound so together, so real in what you wrote, and I am very proud of you, you are truely remarkable.
    > with affection and respect, M

  159. Donal says:

    Tom,
    That was a very open and honest response to Margaret’s question. It is difficult for anyone to answer a question like that: it involves taking a hard look at yourself, your life and your therapy. I thought it was very brave.
    Donal.

  160. Donal says:

    David,
    I realized I have been going around in circles with you. The bottom line is that I had a reaction when you asked me how many years have you been primalling. It got my defenses up: I felt criticized or that judgement was imminent. I felt that you were one of these people who could drop into an old feeling at the drop of a hat, so I think it made me feel inferior.
    All of the back and forth regarding primals was for the most part, from my end, the diffusing of these reactions to your question.
    I only realized on Subday when you referred to someone saying that your use of “primalling” was dated (me obviously)
    Kinda dissappointing I did not realize/admin this earlier: oh well, behold the power of defenses.
    Donal

    • David says:

      it’s all good, Donal. Not easy when we cannot see to whom we speak; no knowing where they’re at… it’s weird, like I’m 69, and yet feel emotionally, intellectually, much younger. And I have this perception of everyone on here just being, ” kids,” .Am I weird here all on my own ?? And my emotional self assumes everyone is superior, intellectually and in terms of primal success. A , ” man without a country,” I have pretty much accepted that I will never belong anywhere, with/to anyone. I could fit in, create a false face, but being me part of which is being honest is too important to me.

  161. Otto Codingian says:

    going to bed. gettin up early. gonna drink my coffee. gonna do some boring work and get my $500 to pay some other guys so they can drink their coffee. hate to say it, but this might be luxury to a lot of people. hear the one cat howl because it wants something. hear nothing vocal out of the cat that is dying. or at least the vet says it is dying, but you just cling to hope for miracles. sometimes you can find old music and not feel old. hang down your head tom dooley, poor boy you gonna die. gonna bed. gettin up early and gonna drink my coffee and eat garbage. thanks for listenin

  162. Anonymous says:

    You know I’m rarely on here unless I’m really having problems.
    I feel as though my life is not of quality living. It seems like I experience more bad days than good and living becomes overwhelming and just no joy.
    I know this is depression talking, but I hate my depression controlling my life. I have really tried doing every imaginable that would be healthy in order to feel better and I feel like crap and hard to get out of bed and go.
    I do not think my antidepressant is working anymore! I told the pool guy this past week if I had a gun I would put it to my head and kill myself! In the frame of mind at the time– I meant it!
    I’m feeling very different than anyone else and I feel as though I am going to go down in life as crazy!!
    I just feel like I need to say something to somebody!
    Crystal

    • David says:

      keep talking, Crystal. I can empathize. Have been suicidal; the plan changed by a fluke visitor, 1985. Then I got pissed that I’d let anyone push me to that. And moved mountains to go to therapy. now, Since Primal, I don’t think I could kill myself but have lots of days that I don’t want to do this anymore. I respect your rights and choices. Now I’ll shut up an listen. There may be gaps, me responding; oh that’s kind of presumptuous of me, if that’s any help to you.
      david

    • Phil says:

      Crystal, I’m glad you came here to share this with. Sorry about what you’re going through. Phil

  163. Yes, please continue to write anything you want, Crystal. You’ve added a lot of good things to the blog years ago and I see no reason why that would change now.

    Just….work it all out here every which way you need to. The blog is yours.

    • Anonymous says:

      Thanks everyone for your support! I guess things had to come to this in order for me to really see myself. I’ve had a lot on my plate whi his nothing unusual. I’ve seemed to like it all these years.
      It all came to a head with my swimming pool remodel. The guy has been starting and finishing pools except mine since April. If you’ve seen some of my FB pics you will know plus I don’t seem to be getting as quality work. I have a really hard time telling people whatI want. So all day Thursday I told him what a sorry so and so he was and I was blaming my depression on the pool — but It was there before the pool! Then the well on my farm goes out. I am to leave on 17th for Africa. So everyday I get up– No energy and just want to run away from it all.
      Then the man I date texts and says– I’m affecting his sleep and work and I need HELP!!

      Let me back up to the swimming pool contractor– So I’m texting and giving him he’ll all day Thursday. I finally said to him- you will not admit you’re wrong and I can’t take it anymore. My backyard is my oasis and I don’t have one anymore. Jus thinks concrete and debris!!! So I said if I had a gun I would point it to my head and kill myself!!
      He doesn’t know my boyfriends phone number but knows he is President of Wehco– He calls him at his work and tells his secretary it’s urgent to talk to him. Jeff said Jamey, pool guy, thought I was going to kill him and me or vise versa!!! So a meeting was set Friday night and my daughter doesn’t come– only Jeff. My thinking and reasoning is Truely impaired!!! I just went along with same old bullshit!!! So I started my texting again! If I am mad– I get really compulsive!!
      So like a functioning alcoholic– I look and act like a functioning person and I’m a good actress– but I’m NOT! I’ve been more suicidal than ever before!!
      I don’t like myself. I can’t keep anything in order. I don’t socialize much anymore. I’m bogged down with trying to get properties and farms in order and house while taking care of everyone else!!
      So I called a psychologist tonight and told her I’m not doing well need appt. She first made for Thurs– then she said to come to her home tomorrow!!!!
      I am glad I do not have a gun and there is no water In swim pool!!
      The doctor raised my antidepressant dosage. It’s a new generic name so not sure that’s it. It’s everything!!! Everything from past and in present.
      Crystal

      • Anonymous says:

        I did not proof what I wrote. It’s all I can do get thoughts out. I’m trying to eat healthy and except use. One thing is I’m not sleeping well.
        The movie– “The Gift” disturbed me in a lot of ways. If you want to watch a psychological thriller with a twist and can relate to real people- Go see!! But it is mind boggling a little.

        I just feel like I’m doing worse than ever before!! I feel really hopeless! I really do! I’m turning 59 and I feel like I’m going down as crazy!! I’ve always wanted to be someone of importance and it seems impossible.
        Dr Ryburn told me to bring the newspaper guy. I am Truely not putting on any heirs with him. I told him and I told her that this is not about a relationship. It is about me getting well!! For me to even say that- says a lot! I got really upset when he said– You need help with your depression Crystal!!! I at first got angry and defensive– but then decided I need HELP from everyone!! It’s not about putting on aires and trying to be something I’m not! I have to get over and out of this or I’m not going to be around anymore!!

        I should have contacted Gretchen but my email was not sending so I think she received it today!!
        I really need go bed. It’s 1am in Arkansas. I know my sleep is important if I can rest!
        Thank you guys for listening! Crystal

        • David says:

          Crystal , are you aware that anti depressants may increase suicide ideation ?? Hoave you had a complete physical with an MD practicing functional science based medicine ??
          david

  164. Donal says:

    Crystal,
    I am glad you can tell all of the rest of us here on the blog what is going on with you, and that you are getting support. People are so supportive on here. Glad you are getting help from people where you live too, I hope things get better for you, and you keep writing on here.
    Donal

    • Anonymous says:

      David- I have to wait until after Aug 28th to get a physical because of insurance. However, the doctor said there is some blood work he can do on Monday before I leave for Africa.
      Actually I’ve never given it a thought about the medication causing suicidal. It is definitely a chemical depletion due to stress, etc etc. I just know what I have been taking is not helping me and surely there is something I can take to have a better quality of life.
      I know there are so many things I have to work through. I spend too much time alone and overthink things.
      Thanks David

      • David says:

        I’ve learned that even when I think I can’t offer much, I can say I care. Any of us who have suffered must know that feeling. If my caring helped, I’m privileged, Crystal Keep talkin’ kiddo..

    • Anonymous says:

      Hi Donal- Thank you for your response. I have a better outlook after Dr Ryburn met with me this afternoon. She kindly called and asked me to come to her home. It meant a lot that she would care that much! She has such a busy schedule because she teaches college classes and she had out of state company and just returned from abroad. So for her to call and say– Come on to my house meant just so much to me! It made me feel like she cared!
      It also makes me feel good that in a moment of desperation- I can jump on here and you guys respond! Thank you – Crystal

  165. margaret says:

    > David,
    > what you said about your little daughter, and what was done to her precious little body after she died, is stuck on my mind, even if back then I did not react, just want to let you know you were being heard.
    > must have hurt so very much, and still now as well..
    > seems like the worst what can happen..
    > M

    • David says:

      I think, Margaret, that after 34 years it was the first time I cried for her, I mean for what she lost. That poor baby. On the day of the surgery it was decided that I even though having assumed a forced calm would not be permitted to accompany her to the OR and be with her until she was unconscious. She was begging me to come with her. The porter who took her on the gurney told her, ” Your daddy needs to go for a smoke and a coffee.” So stupid, I didn’t use either. She meant no harm, but Rachael would know wasn’t true and I worried about that as an extra stressor. I was pissed at her ineptness. I’m the only one in my family who knows what indignity her body suffered.

  166. Anonymous says:

    i am not thinking clearly right now so I am going to wait on posting.
    Crystal

    • David says:

      Hey, Crystal; don’t need to be thinking clearly, to post, just awake. hee hee. I’d be mute if that was a requirement. And believe me that would be welcomed by some friends… hah
      did you have a meds review ?? I hope your doc makes you a valuable part of the team. You know how you feel.
      dave

  167. Otto Codingian says:

    Ok. 39 years of marriage as of today. I was lucky to find some gladiolas at Ralphs for two dollars. We went to the beautiful Franklin canyon but I was exhausted from cleaning up one tiny area of the house where one of the dog sleeps, so I was lifeless there, paid no attention to Z. We sat or tried to sit at a table that was not laid flat, it was at a down hill angle, so I really could not face her. The park was too lonely and quiet for me, since it was a weekday, few people were there. Coyote chasing quail in the every never ending quest to stay alive. Z and I rarely touch each other. Which one of us will die first and destroy the other’s life? I am drained and have zero to give. For a long time now. Life is a bitch and gets bitchier. Nothing has changed. My rent check bounced. I am so unhappy. I am so depressed. I count my successes at work. Like figuring out bureaucratic paperwork to that the government can move 200 old computers from one warehouse to another. Instead of just giving those computers to schools, they will rot forever in some stinking warehouse or be thrown into some dump. Like being a slob in my boss’s showcase of a computer technician work area/call center. Stacking stinking old label printers with all kinds of bugs on them around my desk to create a fortress to get some small measure of privacy. One dog dead this year, many dead dogs, cats, birds, turtles and whatnot over the past 55 years, another dog with a lump in his throat, a cat with either nose cancer or fungus, if she is lucky it is fungus. Does this tell us that we will probably get cancer ourselves from living 5 blocks from the freeway? No matter; no money to move, we can barely afford what we got. Oh yeah, rent check bounced. I have very little relationship with my kids because I couldn’t change myself enough from my terror of an early childhood. Never should have had kids but did. One kid seems ok, but trying to get his phd, he has no girlfriend of any of that stuff. Other kid, his wife doesn’t want his brother to come around at all. I am growing tomatoes, corn, squash, and weeds. Seeds I got from a survival company. If there is a cataclysmic catastophre, I might be lucky to get 2 ears of corn. Of course, tomatoes always grow, but not getting many. It is certainly hot enough. I am depressed and hopeless as always. I don’t want to listen to music and cry, not about my horrible life, nor about my recently-deceased dog. All the latinos on the block have giant families and get-togethers and we are just 3. I had such family get togethers when I was a kid, now the family is spread to the wind and I never hear from them. It is impossible to see my bother in Costa Mesa in his retirement home, where he gets to watch 3 old folks die each week. Anyway, done watering, now go get dinner for Z. Then give medicine to sick pets. Go get my coffee in the morning and go to work. Z came in my room to say she says she feels crappy, like she has a bug. She says this every other week. She has bottles of pills stacked all over her office. We couldn’t afford herbs or whatever supplements she is taking this week, so she is sick. Blah blah blah Couldn’t ask for another. You know that song. Send chills up my spine or something. Groove is in the heart.

    • David says:

      Otto; I am left speechless. Not to be insensitive but Is this for real?

    • Larry says:

      How do you manage to get through each day!

    • Otto: I really like your writings here. I’m not into pets as you are (OK maybe a cat or something cute, small, furry and QUIET would work), but I empathize with your lamenting living close to the freeway. Makes all the sense in the world to me; traffic buzzing by your home at all hours will always add a low level of stress to your existence. Most people just train themselves to ignore it even though it’s there. Nice idea on your growing a garden, too. It can be hard work that demands a lot of attention, but I can see the sense of empowerment and natural comforts against an urban life that can mentally draw and quarter people from all corners.

      • (Thinking about Otto’s post just made me want to type this down before I go.)

        Man, I really miss my maternal grandpa’s big, old ranch style home. Upscale neighborhood, last house at end of street, huge garden in back….and that lovely cedarwood smell by his carpentry area with two luxury cars in the garage. Grampa was simply the type to tear out the back seat of the old luxury car and make room for more tools. It became a carpenter’s truck disguised as a car; the newer car being left untouched for going out socially.

        Very little traffic, yet only 20 minutes to the city and all its amenities. Perfect suburban living having all the trappings of nature without too much deep woods isolation.

        The only thing to complain about is the maintenance work and costs to keep everything running smoothly, quietly, and serenely. It can be a definite chore without hired help (gramps was wise enough to hire one person in this capacity).

        I think I would be very content just returning to this sort of lifestyle till the day I die.

      • David says:

        I lived under the 405, on Sawtelle. After a while the freeway started to sound like a creek flowing. When I returned to quiet rural Nova Scotia, I couldn’t sleep at night; something wasn’t right. Interesting how maladaptation gets to feeling like normal so we can function, exist.

  168. Larry says:

    This therapy is cruel. The therapists are cruel. They get to know you and your carefully crafted rock and lattice edifice of defenses that help create the impression of a normal life, and then they point out it’s flaws and the thing comes tumbling down and your left with nothing, with a sickening, empty void. So cruel of them. They leave you there, naked, empty, and hurting, to the depths of your soul. Facing unbearable truth. Facing you are alone with it. Facing there is no escape from it.

    And you heal.

  169. Otto: Since you are a bit into gardening, maybe try placing some fragrant spearmint plants in your bedroom would be a bit of a refresher? Waking up minty fresh every day could add a spark of aliveness within the everyday urban dread.

    • Phil says:

      Guru,I think Otto needs more than spearmint plants to freshenthings up.Phil

      WordPress.com

      THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented: “Otto: Since you are a bit into gardening, maybe try placing some fragrant spearmint plants in your bedroom would be a bit of a refresher? Waking up minty fresh every day could add a spark of aliveness within the everyday urban dread.”

      • Phil: That might be true, and I need about a $75 million freshening up in my own life, too! I mention this to Otto because of his current interests, my own enjoyment of having spearmint near the trash cans in my own backyard, and the ease for Otto to try something small that could produce outsized dividends in relation to the effort expended (taking a nod towards Otto’s currently low energy levels).

        • David says:

          thoughtful and attainable. amazing, too, for me at least, how diversions often lead to the feeling spilling out, instead of remaining blocked in symbolism. Whenever the same emotional track keeps persisting despite,” feeling,” it I know I’m on the wrong track.

  170. As an aside, I received this in the mail today:
    “According to a survey of more than 1,000 people, married people don’t have
    much to say to each other. The survey found that on average, married
    couples share only four minutes of meaningful conversation per day.”

  171. Donal says:

    Otto
    Eloquent writing, but , boy, what a lot of stuff to deal with constantly: bombarded from both the past and present.
    To echo Larry’s questions: how do you get through each day?? If I remember correctly from you previous posts, the coffee seems to help you get stuff done….i could be remembering wrong. I know coffee gives me a certain boost to get ride above hopelessness, anxiety, loneliness, emptiness, etc, so I can get stuff done, earn a paycheck, maintain structure in my life and keep some amount of sanity: I have gone through periods of drinking too much caffeine which leads to less sleep, thus exacerbating the issue of getting through the following day with all the tasks and feelings. Sometimes, an optimum amount of sleep deprivation and caffeine, balanced against each other, gives me just the right level of feeling-awareness to get through the day and feel okish. Not too much of feeling bad, and just enough of feeling good: right in that sweet spot where the defenses are balanced just right. Not to be confused with genuinely feeling OK, of course: its not but it often works.
    Donal.

  172. Donal says:

    USG,
    That sounds like hogwash to be honest: I am sure most couples have more than four minutes of interaction. Even if it’s negative. Maybe all of these couples were workaholics with exceptionally long commutes? Biased sample?
    Donal

    • Donal: If you look carefully at what was written in italics it said four minutes of meaningful conversation per day, not four minutes of total conversation per day. That’s an enormous problem in itself trying to define what parts of conversations can be considered “meaningful” or not, especially as you start to cover a wide sampling of different demographic groups. I’m afraid I do not have more information available to flesh out all the factors that comprised the study I referenced.

  173. donal says:

    USG,
    I did see that.before I responded…four minutes still seems too low. And,yes, “meaningful” is subjective, though I was assuming it was conversation other than the functional things that couples need to talk about (is there enough money in the checking account to clear this month’s bills, who organizes dinner, who drops the kids at soccer, practice, who picks them up, etc,
    Donal

    • There was a companion study along with the original one stating:
      Another study done in Britain discovered the amount of time married couples speak with one another decreases as the years pass. Couples married for 20 years were found to spend about 21 minutes conversing during a 60 minute dinner, whereas newlyweds within the first year of their marriage converse for about 40 minutes of those 60 minutes. The only exception belongs to married couples with young children, who speak for about 10 minutes during a 60 minute dinner.

      Donal: Do you think that you might be more inclined to say the original study of the “4 meaningful minutes” is baloney because you possibly carry a bias related to your being younger and married for fewer years (and, thus more likely to talk longer than someone older and married for a longer period as implied from the second study)?

      • Patrick says:

        This reminds me of a story well something that happened on the recent Kruse Cruise. My ‘roomate’ or bunkmate whatever word you want to use was this Canadian woman Michelle. Anyway I would say we got on pretty good and hung out together a fair bit. Part of hanging out was having dinner at the same table every evening with the same people most of whom were strangers to each other.

        The last evening Michelle was not there so I said to the table ‘my wife (or maybe I said my woman) is not going to be here today’. There was a pause and another woman there who did know us from the group said “She’s not his wife”. The woman who I was addressing the ‘stranger’ said “will I figured that” So I asked her how she figured that out.

        She said ‘well you both spent the whole time talking to each other” So I said ‘oh does that go after you are married for a while?” She said ‘yeah pretty much’ She was there with her husband by the way so there was no bad feeling about it I didn’t think. After a while she said ‘and one other sign I had was “she laughed at all of your jokes” So I said ‘does that go too” to which she said again ‘pretty much’

        Anyway Guru maybe you can add this to your ‘study’ and note it down as being purely ‘anecdotal’ Though to me ‘anecdotal’ usually seems to mean a lot more than all these reams of statistics. I mean most all of these ‘studies’ seem like such a waste of time……………

        • Patrick says:

          Speaking of laughing at jokes here is a snip from a song. Question is what is the missing name. I bet Otto knows this at least………………..too easy maybe

          “I laughed at one of your jokes
          My love you didn’t need to coax
          Oh ________ , I couldn’t have tried any more”

          • David says:

            Maggie May, right ?? do I win a prize ???

            • Patrick says:

              No prizes David……………unless you count being a member of my group that is scheduled to open soon and be operational in a galaxy far far away.For you a free membership everyone else will have to pay through the nose. That way I can keep the demand down. And the high price will convince people it is worth going all the way there……………..only you will know better so that’s your prize LOL

          • David says:

            Oh Maggie I couldn’t have tried any more
            You lured me away from home just to save you from being alone
            You stole my heart and that’s what really hurt

    • David says:

      And here is where Jack would be expected to insert, ” Why do you need to be right all of the time, especially over such trivial matters?”

      • David says:

        he system installed my aug 19 david says: in the wrong place; it was in response to Jacks response to USG in response to USG’s response to Donal’s reply to USG, It makes no sense here. Question why is the comment only reserved for some, Jack ?

      • jackwaddington says:

        David: Correct.

        Jack

        • David says:

          but it did not appear ?? true to your prediction the function of the blog has quickly gone wonky again. If my computer and my connection was any faster I’d have to be registered somewhere. Waiting on the blog page to behave is annoying…

  174. Margaret says:

    >
    > yesterday we had a strong rain- and thunderstorm in the evening.
    > the kittens had the time of their life, racing back and forth onto the terrace through the clattering cat door, twenty times back and forth, wet feet, wet tail,all excited.
    > I kept checking on them, as the water in the gutter by the terrace was a combination of a waterfalll and a wild mountain river.
    > one of the kittens jumped up to a plastic chair and raced around after its tail, all wired up with the rain, thunder, lightning, excitement..
    > afterwards they ate a whole second evening meal to make up for all that energy, and dried on the bed..
    >
    > then I dreamed, waking up with a devastating overwhelming feeling.
    > I was on the edge of a cold sea on my own, a group of strangers sitting at a distance further up on the beach, and the people I knew and came with sitting even further away.
    >
    > I started feeling distressed, as I coud not make my way back alone, and nobody seemed to take notice, so I think I called out to the strangers, or they noticed my situation, and they called out to ‘my’ group of people.
    > I heard the ‘supervising’ lady tell the others they had been supposed to keep an eye on me or stay with me, so I knew someone would eventually come down to help me in a little while.
    >
    > but before that a safety guard, a woman, came racing out of the water to me, black swimming suit, cold and wet, and while she bent over to me to check how I was, I crumbled down on the cold wet sand, letting her know I was ok, not drowning or anything, but .. and then the feeling overwhelmed me big time, helples and immensely sad about it, emotion still there while writing..
    >
    > so sad, so alone, so helpless.
    > feeling so strong I could only bear it a few seconds in its totality..
    >
    > M

    • Larry says:

      More and more I’m finding there is nowhere to run from this alone thing. I can only accept it, cry it out, and do something about it. Not easy to do.

      My boss retired last month. This past Friday was my summer students’ last day. I took them to a Thai restaurant for lunch. They gave me a parting gift, darn it. That’s a first. I wanted to resist accepting it, to protest, but realized it was far more satisfying for them if I graciously accepted it. So I did, but it wasn’t easy. My summer students shouldn’t be getting me gifts. I must not be working them hard enough. When they started work with us in the Spring they were anticipating a long boring summer, but they found it was fun, a good learning experience, and went by too fast. It sure did go by fast.

      So now no boss to supervise me, and no students for me to supervise. My identity, my sense of purpose and meaning at work, is dissolving. At least the post-doc needs my help for the winter, and my boss took a 12 hour a week contract starting in September and will need my help, so I still have a reason to get up in the morning.

      Back to the alone thing. This past Friday I enjoyed a nice evening with 5 other people from a singles social group, taking in cultural festivities happening in the City. I feel myself coming out of a shell, relaxing and having fun with people, for sheer survival. It’s that or be alone.

      I’ve been alone all day today, crying quite a bit. Seems like the crying needs to be done, and the reality of aloneness accepted as well as the realization that only I can do something about it. I have more social activities lined up for the next few weekends. I was once way too shy and insecure to be as social.

      • Leslie says:

        Sounds like you are doing good things for yourself – and others too Larry!
        It does take organizing to get out there, but it sounds like you enjoy the rewards.
        Hope you get to enjoy the summer stuff for a long time yet!
        ox L.

        • Larry says:

          2 more years max, Leslie. I applied to do a 4 day work week, and will be paid accordingly. It is a transition to retirement option. The transition can only last for 2 years max, and then I must retire. So essentially I’ve formally let them know I will retire between now and 2 years from now (actually beginning at the end of this September).

          • David says:

            we instituted a neat plan at our office, Larry; 3 year cycle, take 2/3rds salary while working for 2 years, take 3rd year off with 2/3rd’s pay. The income tax reduction was noticeable; CPP still maxed out; and tenure protected, so no effect on length of service determined pay increases.

      • tom verzar says:

        Hi Larry
        Read your lines referencing feelings of ‘aloneness’ with great interest.
        Only now am I starting to wake up to my intense and lifelong feelings of loneliness. Never thought much about it. Never occurred to me that I could be inflicted by this feeling. I always put it down to not being able to connect. And that’s where I stopped. Mixing with people made me aware of my own inability to ‘feel connected’.
        I do not cry about feeling lonely. I go into an acute state of “splitting away” from myself. It’s as if it was an other person feeling lonely. Not me. How could that be, after all, I am surrounded by people.
        Oh yes. I forgot. It occurred long before I could even talk. Like looking at my mum, presumably out of a cot, or pram, swaddled in comforting cloth, sheets, whatever, Needing, expecting something, that I had no way of articulating like an adult. Like i am looking at you……shouldn’t something be happening now????????????
        Like my first time in a small group the therapist asked me ‘what I want”. I didn’t know what to say.
        Inside me I went ballistic. I delivered myself to your door, now it is up to you to look after me, take care of me. No?????????
        Crying??????? What’s that? And it is supposed to help me????????????? How????
        Oh Larry. You always affect me with your writing.
        Tom

        • Larry says:

          The more you write about it here, Tom, the more your life makes sense to me and I understand you. Your splitting from the feeling as a baby makes sense to me, when you tried to make contact, before you could speak, and no one responded.

          I think some of that split from the feeling happened to me when I was 4, when I moved back home to live with my parents, when they weren’t responding to my need, and i didn’t even dare express my need because I knew that they were incapable of being the parents I needed, but I couldn’t let myself be aware that I knew or that I was all alone and would have to grow up without parents.

          The split probably happened even earlier, when they gave me away in the first place. Suddenly I could not trust, bond, or connect. Suddenly I knew fear and aloneness instead of connection, security, and oneness.

          There is an article in a recent issue of NewScientist about adoption in the wild animal world. For various reasons, some of them disturbingly dark, some animal parents in nature adopt offspring they didn’t give birth to. I look at the pictures accompanying the article and think of the bond shattered between the offspring and the original parent, the fear and uncertainty, the insecurity, at least in the beginning, of the relationship with the adoptive parent.

          I think for you and me the bond with a parent shattered very early, or in your case it sounds like it didn’t get a chance to form at all.

  175. Margaret says:

    > forgot to ask about something I heard on the news some days ago.
    > big quantities of poisonous liquids would have been poured into the colorado river and some other streams, the poison turning the water yellow.
    > that sounded really dreadful, what is the latest news about that?
    > it is really awful to imagine plants and animals would have been killed and the rivers poisoned for a long time..
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – the last I heard on the news about it some Government official EPA I think said the river has just kind of cleaned itself. Reminds me of the time of the Gulf Oil Spill in 2010 everybody was tearing their hair out and then one day not long after a Government official said basically the oil had just gone! Just gone as in gone away he was not so clear where it had gone, evaporated, changed by sunlight, drunk by the fish, sunk to the bottom of the ocean whatever, who knows but basically don’t worry about it it’s just gone. The same seems to have happened to the poison in the river

  176. Margaret says:

    > yesterday I discovered one of the kittens seemed to have wounded himself probably during the wild torment playing, at his nose and right eye.
    > it was hard for me to assess how wserious it was, like was the eye itself wounded too?
    >
    > I tried in vain to reach several people to come by and have a look, none of them was there or had the time, which of course triggered the feeling of the dream again, being helpless and alone and scared, unhappy..
    >
    > finally after a few calls in vain, I mamaged to get hold of my best girlfriend on one of her cellphones, and to my great relief she said she just came back from the seaside and would of course come by to have a close look to the kitten’s eye.
    > I felt so relieved I started to cry..
    >
    > there is indeed a cut from his nose onto the outer corner of his right eye, but the eye is seemingly ok.
    > they still have some kitten’s ailments, but at least this is not too bad, and today he seems full of energy and playfulness, it is a pleasure watching them both racing around the house or catching toy mice or wriggling toes under the bed covers..
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. Glad your kitten is OK. Know what you mean about helplessness when kitty needs attention. There are 2 wild kittens coming in and out of the yard, whose mom, of course is wild too. The white one (part Siamese), had what appeared to be a sticker in her little eye. Her eye was closed and she kept rubbin