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So!!!! all my past comments are now out of site Booooo Hooooo 😦 😦 😦 .
Jack
Gretchen – I guess I see the way you make a new page just suddenly like that as a kind of coded message to ‘ignore all that went before’.Conspiracy theory? maybe or maybe not. Usually Fiona bugs you a few times before you do it I did not see Fiona asking for that here.
I don’t want to be overly sensitive or overly demanding but it strikes me this way.Gretchen I feel you are a good person and very helpful and caring but you are also SLICK. I feel that just leave it at that I suppose. It just seems an attempt to say forget all that nonsense Patrick is talking about esp of course the holocaust. Except I feel more and more sure it is NOT nonsense. I don’t expect to convince anyone here I do it for myself I suppose and I appreciate this as a place to do it. Primal people or at least the ‘true believers’ to me are very ‘conventional’ in their thinking I am thinking now of Phil’s last comment reeks of conventionality and not rocking the boat. I was encouraged to see Joop on here as I say I know him and I see him and myself as very emblematic of a lot of the ‘failures’ in primal therapy of which I feel the majority of people are. The ‘successes’ are self reported and mostly unconvincing to me. Though I have met a few people that to me are quite impressive mostly the therapy/movement has fallen very short of the expectations raised and I even think now I know why for the most part. Janov by putting feelings into a realm of their own and then trying to control them and run everything through his system failed utterly in the big picture scheme of things. This is not just me saying this look at any ‘real world’ measure of primal and where it actually IS at versus where it might be and the gap is huge indeed.
Patrick, I’m not sure you really get what I was saying to you. I’m not going to be interested in anything Kollerstrom has to say because quite frankly I think he is a seriously disturbed human being. I don’t think the movie you referenced has anything to do with this except in Kollerstroms mind and yes I know the movie. I have not been waiting to discredit him as he does an excellent job of that all by himself and frankly smarter people than me have long since made mincemeat of his theories. I don’t know what you are talking about when you reference my comments about researching the other side of an argument and respond by saying you will read Kollerstroms book. Or why you say you are working on becoming un- brainwashed. These have been your views for quite some time and you have said as much. Finding Kollerstrom was just the nut you were looking for to confirm those views. As for your friend Joop, I have to say that exchange seemed a bit ” canned” but the good news is you have someone to discuss this with. My concern, were I you, is that you are already deciding that the rest of this craziness makes sense. Yeah, the real Paul was exchanged for who is it , Faul? As for your comment that no one witnessed the gas chambers you are just plain wrong. Kollerstroms theory that the camps were luxury resorts is downright pathetic. But as I say you had this view long before Kollerstrom. But here is the thing …. I don’t actually think you care about the Holocaust or Primal theory or who succeeds and who doesn’t. I don’t even think you care whether we landed on the moon or whether Paul is dead. I really don’t. I think you need to do some major soul searching as to what is really motivating this almost compulsive behavior. Why would a person return to a site over and over where almost know one agrees with you and then continue upping the ante in what seems to be a need to provoke? Is it a simple re- creation of the past? I don’t know but I do question that you find this helpful. I just think you need to ask yourself some questions. It seems truth is not so high on the priority list but rather a need for a reaction and a negative reaction at that. I don’t say this to hurt you but because I think you need to get to the bottom of what’s really going on with you. Gretchen
Wow Gretchen a lot there and it’s past my bed time but I might find it hard to sleep if I say nothing. First off sorry it seemed I jumped the gun on the reason for the new page I accept what you say about that. About the rest I will kind of just run down what you wrote and respond in that order.
First off about Kollerstrom we are not going to agree but I do disagree with you very much. He is ‘conspiracy prone’ for sure but he is open minded, takes a chance has his biases I suppose but I find the guy impressive in a strange way. And as far as the holocaust goes I find more and more he is not alone, I and it seems neither you or Jack believe me but it’s true………………I avoided the holocaust like the plague I had come to conclusions about what Israel is doing probably 7 or 8 years ago but the thing is as time goes on it seems to get WORSE and worse to the point of being very dangerous and basically they are itching for World War 3 (with Iran) So that’s the truth I feel I HAD to look into it as SOMETHING has to explain this kind of behavior and I feel I am getting somewhere with it
As far as Joop is concerned nothing ‘canned’ about it I know him quite well and we do talk and email each other. I just reacted on the blog to seeing him on the blog. I really like Joop and Gretchen he is yet another person who knocked himself out to get here to do primal therapy and he can tell you himself it was a kind of ghastly experience. Like me he has his own fuck ups if I might say so to cause that……………..but the point is the PI was meant to understand defenses etc etc.but from what I saw they did a terrible job or I did a terrible job what’s the difference…………..the result is failure but if there is ‘blame’ it would in my world go to the place that charged $6600 and delivered a chaotic and slip shod therapy. I keep saying and I am not cherry picking here MOST of all the people I know up to say 30-40 would judge it pretty much a failure.Anyway no point in going on about this……………
To try to get to something important I find your ‘analysis’ of me ‘slick’ also…………..there is enough truth in it for it to ‘pass’ but a kind of lazy and lukewarm truth. Why am I on here is the question I suppose…………………I am on here because I am still trying to work out or come to terms with my feeling that I have been mis-directed and jacked around by the PI in so many ways. I read the Primal Scream when I was 20 and had such a messianic feeling about it, read every single book and journal put out as they came out, saved and worked for 5 years to get here, borrowed money from my Dad on and on……….to come here and right way some VERY bad ‘signs’ Thorazine being dispensed like candy, medical director goes off his rocker, suicides up to 20 YES Gretchen up to 20 and stop your nonsence about how you only know THREE. You have done this before and it is bullshit, talk about ‘slick’ very SLICK and not true. So when you talk about Kollerstrom now I see the SAME slickness and I don’t like it. It’s too clever by half too loosey goosey with the truth it might pass on some kind of low level but NOT in a realm where real integrity and truth is important.
I am here because I had to get this out of my system……………this is a huge thing a young man is totally consumed by something and finds out it is NOT what it was cracked up to be.You have helped me in recent years as best you can but primal is so flawed it needs a huge revamp and rethink again of course IMO.. And me being a ‘thinker’ have some ideas about all that. I am losing the plot here it is getting late and maybe should have done this tomorrow but I think you are ‘wrong’ about your interpretation of me or maybe a way to say it is you are half right and the phrase comes to mind a half truth is a whole lie. I may have something more to say tomorrow and probably should have waited but let me finish in maybe an incoherent way but I am sick of your ‘slickness’ and how you fudge and dodge and SOUND true but are NOT true. Keeping to specifics you know of only 3 suicides you have said more than once. How about this that I know from a very limited experience
Elinore………….pretty quiet American girl I was trying to get up the courage to ask out ………….dead (suicide)
Peter C…………..Irish guy a mover I worked with him many many times a happy go lucky (it seemed) guy sang songs in the truck……………same as above
Greg……………a young American guy I knew him and liked him. We did a sandwich route for the same company. Again young seemed happy go lucky no great problems but………….dead
Moira…………….South African girl I know her slightly found dead in the primal box in a house I used to visit
Can’t remember her name pretty Australian girl……………went back to Australia suicide again
These are people I knew directly I have heard of several others the guy who shot himself and burned his motorcycle in the desert…………..dead
Guy who shot himself in the head in the bathroom at the PI…………….I don’t he died
A Swedish guy (Peter I think) went back to Sweden and put his exhaust through the window………….dead
Lynn…………..he killed himself while training at Janov’s center but I knew him well did many move jobs together etc
Do you want me to go on?? I could so Gretchen I want to let you know I know how SLICK you are so anything you might say about the holocaust why should I believe it when these are matters I have DIRECT experience with and you LIE about it yes LIE.
So there ………………I probably will regret this tomorrow but I want to give you an idea your sloppy half truths do not cut it with me or MOST of the people who have gone through the PI. We can all sit here and in our little self selected group act like it is all hunky dory. It is not and NEVER has been. Time to start over…………………
Not sure if Gretchen will respond herself, but several things you mention here need, from my perspective, to be put in some other context.
For me, to talk of ‘THE TRUTH’, is a little disturbing for me and I have said before I try earnestly to avoid using the word. My reasoning is that ones man’s truth is another man’s “lie”, and it then becomes an argument. I suits my thinking/feeling better if I say MY FEELING, hence it is now NOT arguable.
Next the suicides: I have mentioned before and I still feel my point holds good. Suicide is not something that one normally dreams up quickly and I agree here with how Janov charcterized it in the past, as the final act-out, pain-killer, cop-out. I feel strongly that the cause for all of the suicides was not because of what was being done at the Instrite. It may in some cases, have resulted in hoping that our demons that we/they arrived here with, were not quickly enough made to go away and the deep distress of it still lingering caused the suicide to decide:- “that’s it … I’m out of here” … meaning life. I get the feeling that you have some desire to BLAME the Institute or the therapy for putting some seeming “happy-go-lucky” person into a suicidal frame of mind (distress).
You accuse Gretchen of sloppy thinking … that’s RICH coming from a very crooked and I feel also sloppy thinker. You, by your own admission, can’t even keep a consistency in most of your comments. I am not sure why Gretchen indulges you as much as she does, but from my experience of her she’s not sloppy. She’s first a very, very competent therapist and that’s enough for me. I don’t need to know why she indulges you.
As far as I can see it; you explained very clearly in one comment some time ago, why you did ‘not cross the threshold’ when you referred to your first week therapist, Leslie Pam, making a suggestion to you, during your first three week intensive and your response (or maybe thought) was “what’s the point”. The very fact that you questioned your therapist in that manner, suggests to me that you brought that mentality with you to the institute. I can only assume that you felt the need to question everything and that is your nature … BUT for and to me, therein is where you, for whatever your deeper reasonings were, to question it first, and then your desire to not go there … where I feel Leslie was trying to take you; across the threshold from thinking, to deep feeling.
As I read you, you are still doing just that to this very day. Unless: the “point” is explained to you on your terms you are not going there. To coin a phrase … YOU MISSED THE POINT.
Jack
I just remember the Australian girl’s name it was Marina
I added the page because my iPad was failing to take me to our comments page. I guess too many comments. You are more than welcome to bring any comments over here as long as you bring there responses as well. G.
P.S. Slick, an interesting choice of words. G.
It might seem I have broken confidences or whatever by naming names……………..but Gretchen sllps and slides on this and has done more that once with me in the past so here are some NAMES, stop your slickness these are NAMES names that nobody much paid attention to, lost souls did their families even make a fuss mostly unlamented names.nobody in their corner and the ‘philosophers’ of primal therapy would ‘blame’ them they failed not the PI the PI NEVER ‘fails’ by definition except that it mostly has it set up that way total impunity “it’s just your feeling”……………….how come even one of them did not get a nasty “Jewish” lawyer and it might have been curtains for the PI. Makes one wonder what strings were pulled, somebody must have pulled some strings
So what’s the point of debating world history trying to get at some truth when people here right in my face and about facts I know off LIE about it. They are pissing on your leg and telling you it is raining. It’s all your fault you didn’t ‘own’ your feelings blah blah blah. If it was me I would take some ‘responsibility’ but that seems to be missing here too.I see parallels with the way the holocaust theories are defended with the way Janov ‘defends’ primal therapy. Dishonest, no caring, just win at all costs, keep the story going let the goyim swallow some more shit. I start to see lots of parallels unfortunately and much bigger stronger richer and smarter people than me have taken this on and failed. As I said this can only lead to trouble (for me) I should just study it quietly and keep quiet about it. Only talk to people I trust and I have a few still thank God………….
Patrick, You kind of make my point. You say you are on this site to work out what you described earlier as your failure in therapy. But you are not working it out. You came to therapy with what you describe as a messianic feeling about therapy and then you left – forty years ago. You repeat what I would describe as half truths ( or whole lies) ,inaccuracies and gossip and no matter what is said to dispute your claims you repeat it again and again with no ability to consider at times you might just be wrong. At the same time we are so “slick” we allow you on to the blog and give you the freedom to say whatever you like, true or not. I have been asked why we have not said enough is enough to you, why we don’t ban you from the blog. My answer is always the same. Because he has so many negative things to say. It’s always best ( but there are exceptions) to allow people to speak as they always betray themselves. Honestly that is exactly what you did when you made your comments about Jewish lawyers and goyim. You expose that far from the dispassionate historian wanting to find truth you are instead angry and filled with prejudice and misplaced rage. In science we don’t search for the answer we want to be true we search for what is true. There is no one here confused about how you feel. If you look back in this blog over years you will see you have said the same things verbatim again and again. Frankly some of it I think beneath you. If someone disagrees or disputes or even proves you to be wrong well, it is written off, diminished or goes unacknowledged. I would have to say at times some have even felt bullied into silence . I think there is some of that in your response to me when you did not like hearing what I had to say but I can’t be bullied. I don’t want a debate with you whether it be about therapy, the Holocaust or anything else. It won’t go anywhere. I spoke up because this time I felt I had to. In any case I have heard your opinions and there is nothing left to say . Gretchen
It’s funny Gretchen you see ‘proof’ of your corner in me while I see if not ‘proof’ exactly (of my corner) your usual modus operandi.It is not terrible but it is not good ENOUGH to my way of thinking/feeling. Just as PT has not been ‘enough’ for the vast majority who have come to it.
You have no idea what I go through day to day in my mind my body and my feelings. Trust me on this I am undergoing a ‘process’ that is good that is getting me my health back. And that is still ‘inspired’ by Janov’s writings but is mostly informed by NOT following the ‘specifics’ of what I ‘learned’ at the PI. A lot of it \is ‘un-learning’.You might say I am un-learning my own misconceptions and misunderstandings it’s true too but my point is nobody should have to go on such a round trip as me.
Joop is a close friend but while the meditation etc probably will help him it is not my way. I am more ‘primal’ than Joop in that sense more ‘primal’ than most truth be told which is why the ‘failures’ both my own and others are painful and hard to swallow.
What you wrote about Gretchen is………………….ok……………….but you ARE slick, you do not say why you said more than one on the blog there were only THREE suicides you have sort of forced me to ‘prove’ that is not correct, I can and have named names. You completely ignore what I said there. (Do you still say you only have heard of THREE?) You can focus on me using a word like ‘goyim’ but you should know I am only saying what comes up………………if you or Freudian’s believe or encourage ‘free association’ in the mind you should be prepared for that. But more or less as usual the talk is there but the walk not so much. One of the things that attracted me to PT was a few times as a family at home we kind of had it all out, crying, cursing each other, bringing up painful things about each other past and present and in my family as kind of messed up as it was somehow it was all ok, the Irish culture was that deep, when push came to shove the KNEW they had sympathy or empathy. Reading the Primal Scream it seemed like I could have this all the time……………….ok my mistake my illusion really I accept that and know that but I also know to ‘professionalize’ that experience is a contra-diction in terms and that was another of my ‘mistakes’. But I will give Janov this the notion of ‘feeling’ and just letting feelings be or happen or whatever you want to call it is verygood………………..but there is or should be no ‘judgement’ of what a ‘
good’ feeling is or a ‘bad’;feeling. I am feeling my way about this holocaust thing and I will pursue it at least to the extent of reading this guys book………………something tells me there is something important for me there to learn and something also tells me there are ‘parallels’ to PT some of them not at all pretty………….
From the moment I have brought up this guy Gretchen the way I see it you have gone into overdrive to shut him down, discredit him, mock him make him a persona non grata which you are also starting to do with me now I feel.He does not deserve this and while I understand you doing it to me neither in the deep sense do I. I could be a good ‘resource’ for you and you could learn from me and learn especially from my ‘failures’ but in the end it is sort of all business and I understand you business comes first. This is a small crime not so bad I blame Janov a lot more he has mis-directed people very badly he must know by now but like a stubborn egotistic and deeply dishonest person that he is he soldiers on. Not matter how much blood is spilled,…………….survive and carry on and WIN. That seems to be true of Janov and also of guys like Netanyahu.It’s a kind of ‘spirit’ that is very damaging to me very damaging to the world IMO and I think that’s why Joop for example just turns away turns inward. Maybe I am just the stupid ‘fighting Irish’ but that’s my way. The Europeans can have their sophisticated ‘outs’ like meditation etc………………….not really my way………………
Obvious that your postings are rife with expression of repressed pain.
Here, on a site of an organization whose purpose is to connect repressed pain!
Feel the pain dude, and leave the forum to more productive purposes.
Les: Wow! that to me, was so on point, even if a bit harsh.
Not sure I know or remember you but great to see you on the blog.
Jack
It may be it’s ‘purpose’ but the results are mostly quite questionable all that I see and hear………………”by their fruits you shall know them”
Or put put more poetically by T S Eliot
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For thine is the Kingdom
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long
Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but with a whimper.
What would you know about the fruits????? You never got any … by your own admission.
Jack
Gretchen, I am so glad of everything you’ve said, and in your concise, fair, factual and real way.
Well I guess for me there is also just one more thing left to say. I will keep the ‘Holocaust’ thing to myself and share it with some close friends, like Patrick. I’ve gotten into so much trouble because of it and frankly, it’s not worth it. Mind you, it doesn’t mean I agree with the ‘official’ story, it means I get sick and tired of being harassed and hated for just bringing it up. For me, now, I picked up my old interest, which is Tibetan Buddhism. To turn inwards and to try to tame my mind and see if that will bring relief. It’s for me a kind of second door, the first one being finding myself through Primal Therapy, which has been a complete disaster; I still hope silently that something might happen to me. The second door is a kind of negation of the first, which calls for a denial of myself, or at least that is how it feels and see if I get somewhere within myself through Tibetan Buddhism.
Joop – Maybe it’s time to start over with ‘therapy’ what would be a good name for it “Feelings in all their forms and manifestations with no taboos hidden or otherwise including the right to question anything and everything including the major myth of our time that 6 million Jews were deliberately gassed and starved to death”
Of course a little knowledge of history would help then we might understand better the reasons for the war and the work camps than some cockamie theory that Hitler acted the way his did because some Jew stole his lunch or something.when he was a kid. That’s about the level of ‘understanding’ you will mostly find here.
Joop: I remember in my hippy days, before I read “The Primal Scream”, getting into meditation and I did get quite a lot from it. In those days amongst other hippies, following the teachings of Gurus was very ‘hip’
Only last night I saw and interview of the Dalai Lama on TV, and I also played the 5 minute link you posted. Of all the meditations I do feel he’s the best. However since doing Primal Therapy (now for over 30 years), I find that meditation’s goal is to find happiness and/or contentment, via what is termed the “ceasing the chattering in ones head”. In view of what I’ve learned about myself from my therapy, I see a limitation. Happiness and/or contentment is not, as I experience it, what life is about. Life to me, is about the integration of the thinking and feeling aspects of the brain … hence meditation, as I experienced it never took me to that point, and if I began to feel sad I meditated my way out of it. Now I except ALL my feelings, the likeable ones and the unlikeable ones and just appropriately express them.
My life now is to go with the flow of MY feelings, be they feelings I don’t like, or not, and in it’s own way for me, does keep me for the most part away from ‘the chattering mind’ without the need to sit and meditate. I can carry on doing what ever it is that I am doing as the feeling hits me. For me so much simpler and so much more direct and to me, so much more natural.
All in all though, I do concede that meditation is a second best, albeit a poor second best … for me. Not meant to be a ‘put down’ towards you Joop.
Jack
Testing
M
> after reading some of the comments I feel like making some observations, to sort out my own thoughts merely.
>
> the thing seems to be Patrick, you reject both sides of the coin, which is the Messian approach in which you seemed submerged when coming to therapy at first, hoping, yes, ‘believing’ it would do kind of a miraculous kind of healing on you, which of course was not the case.
> maybe that is partly why you insist on regarding us mostly as believers instead of simple practitioners of a certain method to explore what lays buried inside of us.
>
> then, if it is not the miracle cure, the result is the patient or practicioner carries responsibility.
> some people have a very hard time, specially the ones carrying a lot of anger and distrust, I have seen a few of those drop out.
>
> but if their whole mindset is set on rejecting, or of not wanting to allow themselves to be vulnerable, at some point the decision lays within the patient, and the debate can only go towards a debate about whether free will exists or not, or are we all only stuck in one possible kind of reaction caused by our history and environment?
>
> if a patient drops out, in some cases a therapist might possibly have been able to let him stay and go on with therapy with some ideal approach, but more often that is not the case, as the patient has a free will of his own, and can make decisions, even if they are not the best decisions to make.
>
> let me take you for an example, you wrote here yourself how you refused right at the start to follow your therapists advise to, if i remember well, to adress your mom or dad, in a session or group, dismissing it as pointless.
> it is just a small example of a certain mindset, of not trusting, and in that case it is actually the patient refusing to do the therapy, for whatever reason there is, sadly enough often a basic early deep distrust that was inflicted on him or her in childhood.
>
> but if that goes on, and the person leaves therapy without having really allowed him or herself to open up, is there really a blame on the therapist, or a blame on the patient?
> why should there be a blame to start with, this therapy is a voluntary thing, and needs coopoeration.
>
> maybe the discussion might be slightly different in case of an intensive intern, forced kind of therapy people could for example choose for instead of a long v
> conviction, just thinking out loud here.
>
> my point being, there is shared responsibility and also in certain cases a huge hurdle to take of defenses that scream ‘don’t trust, don’t trust!!’
>
> it is an illusion any kind of therapy would be able to heal anybody under any circumstances, imo.
>
> i am also one of the many who after reading the Primal Scream, felt like ‘oh, I just have to go there, and my feelings will pour out all at once, they are right there and ready, and I will be done with them in a matter of weeks, or months’..
>
> maybe partly the enthusiasm with which the book was written, but mostly I think the nerve it touched, the nerve of truth and all of us searching to get to what lays inside of us pushing to get out..
>
> so I guess i am lucky that although I did not go through all of my stuff in the six weeks I had scheduled upon my arrival, I did get into a core feeling, actually come to think of it, by following Barry’s advice to talk to my dad, despite of feeling like a fool at first…
>
> all of a sudden after a lot of nothing happening, unexpectedly something I said grabbed me and ulled me along, into my first deep feeling, leaving me afterwards in a hard to describe, wonderful state of reconnection, feeling I finally had found back my longlost best friend, my four year old self.
> it still touches me to think of it, it was and is so very special.
>
> since then a lot of hard work followed, confronting some unpleasant truths about myself, and making the incredible journey of reconnecting bit by bit those cut off neural pathways of suppressed feeling, gradually feeling myself grow into a more unified person bit by bit.
>
> the damage will never be entirely undone, but isn’t it in life always like that, that we can only make the best of things?
>
> so Patrick, all I can say is I truely hope some day you can slip out of this blame game and find ways in which you can be vulnerable and trustful, and find some peace of mind hopefully.
>
> even if some suicides happened, that is very sad, but pain is the source, and if therapists could not get to the source of it in time, specially back then, you can’t keep blaming PT for it forever, as like I said, a person carries his own responsibility too.
> if I do foolish things I am to blame, not the PI.
> me and my pain, but the bottom line I have to deal with is me.
> M
>
Margaret, I think you made a lot of good points with this. Phil Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.
Thanks Margaret – I find that very thoughtful and wise and there is nothing there I disagree with. And thanks for taking the time
Margaret: Wow!!! for me that is the best comment I’ve seen from your in a long time, maybe the best ever on the blog. I saw so much more into you and I agree with Phil, you made so many great points.
I sure agree that in writing here I, like you, feel I am really talking to myself and revealing things about myself … not all good, but hey hoo. That’s the way it goes yeah??
Jack
I did not drop out, I was refused therapy by Hillen and Nygard. The Institute I avoided. Yes, I have a lot of anger and that’s okay. But for a therapist to refuse to give therapy because their patient is perceived to be anti-semitic is overdrawn and a total stab in the back. It was all about trust and my anti-Semitic feelings had to do with things from the past, my parents and all and I had told them that. For these therapists to take it (my anti-Semitic feelings) that serious is beyond me. And that is one of the reasons I do not like jews anymore. They are overly paranoid, they still won’t fit in after all these thousands of years. They talk a good talk, but when you need them they will find a reason to give it you up the asshole. It’s still us and them and that will never change. They’re rude, paranoid, sticky together (oh is he a jew, is she a jew?), sexist, supremacist, liars and arrogant. It’s too bad because I really needed their help. But sometimes in your life you have moments that you run out of luck. But there is one thing that I can’t stand and that is lying.
Barry, thanks for forwarding the “blog” site. Sounds like Kim and I are pretty “tame” patients compared to some of the things I have read. Certain people keep referring to the holocaust but don’t say what it is about. I assume that a lot of people deny that it happened, right? Oh, if only it hadn’t!
Linda
>
Hi Linda, Welcome to the blog! Good to see you here. Phil Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.
Hi Linda. Surprised to see you here. Welcome.
Gretchen – I quote you from August 25th 2014:
“Over the 40 odd years I am only aware of 3 patients that either tried or did take their lives”
Now I have given you NAMES, how do you square those names with the above statement. You even say the ones that ‘tried’ are included in the 3. I gave you I think 8 with NAMES and as I have said before the number would run up to about 20 if all were counted. I can give you circumstances but not names.And that’s as far as I know.
So though the applause from the Greek Chorus might feel good and through all the soft soaping you smooth the edges off a lot we have a funny situation here where 20 gets reduced to 3
Meanwhile on the holocaust subject 300,000 (figures by serious researches) become 6,000,000. That’s a factor of 20!!. If of the 3 that ‘tried’ if only one succeeded that would be a factor of 20 in the other direction.
Who is more concerned with the ‘truth’ here?. I will let you answer that one
I do not like being lied to. As tough as my childhood was my Mom was harsh and beat me at times but I cannot say she ever lied to me. I loved my Dad and he let me into his world his deepest self and I have to say he never lied to me.
Primal was supposed to be so much better as a kind of 2nd family compared to my actual family. In many important aspect is was worse it was mostly a false promise at least as practiced by the people who anointed themselves. They castigated all others as ‘mock’. Well not it turns out some of the ‘mock’ was more real and the real is pretty ‘mock’ As in mocking the truth the worst mockery of all at least to me. Lacking truth is mockery. That’s the main reason Janov got nowhere not will he. He ‘mocks’ the truth and scientists see it and regular observant people see it.
I just wanted to say I am happy & grateful to live in America, where I can freely and safely deny without any legal repercussions such insane ideations as Josef Stalin killing 12 million of his own citizens during his time or the hackneyed notion that 60-70 million people have been killed worldwide in automobile traffic since World War II.
Such unfettered intellectual agility nourishes a warm, fuzzy feeling enveloping my heart.
I can feel it right here *gentle fist thumping chest*.
Out of curiosity, what would you propose as a solution to all those traffic fatalities.
My take is that driving in the U.S.of A means you have a good chance of getting killed and/or injured in traffic … rather than in concetration camps.
Jack
Well, I actually do have a good idea and the ordinary driver could make some extra money “on the side” using this idea of mine.
The problem is I only have the idea. I don’t know how to build a prototype to share with a patent lawyer. However, the idea could definitely be worked using today’s available technology and ordinary citizens could make extra money for themselves using it.
I only wish I knew the right people to proceed with this possibility.
On a lesser note, I also have an idea on how to dramatically improve post office and mail drop boxes using your iPhone, but again I run into the same patent lawyer/prototype issue as stated above.
You didn’t really explain the idea. Not surprising if you are hoping to patent or copyright it and then hope to make money.
I’d like to see the 2 ton vehicle out-dated. I saw on the net this morning, Lexus has developed a cardboard care, but it’s still too long and for four persons when for the most part there is only one person at any one time in a car. Then another aerial picture of a Chinese traffic jam. Geezus
I certainly like the idea of bikes being able to be put on the front of buses and certainly cycling seems to be catching on which I feel is great. I have a Smart car that is great on gas, but not brilliant on suspension. Why a two person wide car? We could increase road capacity by making vehicles single person wide.
Smaller, lighter, run on batteries, battery re-charging stations and single person wide. But in the end why the need to travel such long distances to do simple things like grocery shopping?
Finally to you. You seem to have an insatiable desire to be rich. Even your logo is composed of money symbols I read and had a book from many years ago “Seven Laws of Money” Money never did, nor ever will bring happiness, not even general contentment. I know my idea of “abolishing money” sound crazy, but if there became enough of a critical mass of people that would just contemplate the idea for more than two seconds before dismissing it; I feel that critical mass would develop. I contend we’d solve 95% of our human problems.
For one:- no woman or couple would ever want a child unless they really wanted one out of real love for each other, and thence great love for any baby or babies they created because of their own love for each other. Yep, yep and yep!! my contention. I’ve lived a life, starting in childhood, with very little money around and had a great life. We pay lip service to “Money being the root of all evil” …. yet, crave way more than we really need. For what ?????
Jack
UG,I think computerized self driving cars will eventually tremendouslyreduce the accident rate, traffic jams, and be more fuel efficient.It will take a while longer for them to be perfected and to resolve legal issues with there use but I think the day is coming when our machines will drive us around. Phil
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:08:43 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> hi Linda, nice to meet you here, hope you stick around!
> Margaret
> Patrick, Jack, Phil, thanks guys, you made me go and reread what I wrote.
> I almost never reread a comment when I write it, and I was surprised it was that long, smiley, it poured out quite easily after I gave it some thought while washing the dishes.
> and hey, it was nice I liked reading it again myself, and it is specially nice you agree with it, Patrick.
> hope it helps you in some way.
> M
I did not drop out, I was refused therapy by Hillen and Nygard. The Institute I avoided. Yes, I have a lot of anger and that’s okay. But for a therapist to refuse to give therapy because their patient is perceived to be anti-semitic is overdrawn and a total stab in the back. It was all about trust and my anti-Semitic feelings had to do with things from the past, my parents and all and I had told them that. For these therapists to take it (my anti-Semitic feelings) that serious is beyond me. And that is one of the reasons I do not like jews anymore. They are overly paranoid, they still won’t fit in after all these thousands of years. They talk a good talk, but when you need them they will find a reason to give it you up the asshole. It’s still us and them and that will never change. They’re rude, paranoid, sticky together (oh is he a jew, is she a jew?), sexist, supremacist, liars and arrogant. It’s too bad because I really needed their help. But sometimes in your life you have moments that you run out of luck. But there is one thing that I can’t stand and that is lying.
Joop, Then it seems that your Holocaust denial belief comes as a result of anti-Semitic feelings, not from objective critical thinking. Phil
Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.
My guess is there are probably very few holocaust deniers who aren’t anti-Semitic. Phil
Phil:
–I have been familiar with Google’s autonomous driving car for quite a while, yes. The idea I have is for those who won’t adopt it for whatever reason (desire for independence, mistrust of “letting go of the wheel for a computer”, etc.).
–If one believes as Janov does that the brain is an extraordinarily complex organ, yet we still evaporate into eternal nothingness upon our deaths….wouldn’t being anti-Semitic would carry the same importance as being anti-Space Alien (ergo anti-“ANY STRING VARIABLE”)? If I denied that Stalin arranged the deaths of 10 million Russians, does that make me anti-Russian? What difference would it make? Just wondering aloud…
I once argued on a radio show, that Semites were a group of people from the Middle East, and that Palestinians were equally Semites. The commentator dismissed my remark by stating that, that was not what was colloquially meant by being “anti-semitic”. It is at/on this very point we are arguing with words on the presumption that we all agree on what words mean. Presumably, the dictionary definition should suffice. But that is not how most of us (neurotics) use language in every day life. We play fast and loose with them, (words)
Why you make the assumption that Janov believing the “brain is a complex organ, yet we still evaporate into eternal nothingness upon our deaths” then extrapolate from that: “.wouldn’t being anti-Semitic, … carry the same importance as being anti-Space Alien (ergo anti-“ANY STRING VARIABLE”)? ………….. ”
Not necessarily … this is exactly what Thuless suggest is “crooked thinking. Be very careful what you extrapolate from someone’s statement. That’s YOUR notion at best. I once on this blog, quoted something my Math teacher wrote on the blackboard on my first lesson in Geometric proof:- I quote it again, here. (A piece of foolscap is the same as a sheet of yellow legal paper).
“To prove:- That a piece of foolscap = a lazy dog
Data:- A piece of foolscap and a lazy dog
Proof:- A piece of foolscap = an ink lined plain
In inclined plane = a slow up
a slow pup = a lazy dog
therefore, a piece of fools cap = a lazy dog
QED”
I see this as the way most neurotics talk in order to prove their point. Patrick is a past master at it … and my feeling you are a close second.
Jack
This is exactly where you are going completely off the rails, Jack. You failed to provide any explanation as exactly WHY and HOW and under WHAT EXACT CIRCUMSTANCES that if the brain being destined for complete nothingness then being an anti-Semite would carry any more weight than being anti-.
Instead, you resort to the same old tired ad hominem attack of “crooked thinking”. Every time you do this, it becomes very clear you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation from that point forward and you just can’t admit it.
Did you ever solve that Cheryl & Bernard birthday problem given to 14 year-old students in Asia which I was able to solve in less than 5 minutes? You gave up in complete frustration at your inability to solve this logic problem, and yet you’re always accusing me of crooked thinking. You’re just showing that the pot is calling the kettle black where “crooked thinking” is concerned.
Word Press doesn’t seem to allow “lesser than/greater than” symbols, so I must re-type a sentence:
….that if the brain being destined for complete nothingness then being an anti-Semite would carry any more weight than being anti-(any other random group).
I reiterate a concrete example of what I am trying to convey: If I actively deny that Stalin killed 10+ million of his own people….does that make me anti-Russian? Does my being anti-Russian carry as much emotional import as someone being anti-Semite if one denies the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler and his henchmen? Why or why not?
You are stating hypotheticals. If this and if that …/ Do you OR do you not support the notion that Stalin massacred 10 thousand people.
Then again, state (courageously) if you believe Hitler massacred 6 milion, Jews, gays and gypsies.
Keeping it all as hypothetical questions question leaves us all wondering where your views are at, OR is it safer for you to not commit yourself??????
Jack
So !!!! who’s the pot and who’s the kettle?
Read the book for fuck’s sake … it’s free on the internet.
Oh no!! Guru’s full of tomes of wisdom don’t need to read other peoples work … Mmmmmm???
Fine. Keep on being a superhero. Seemingly: as I read you, you have little else. Least-ways you don’t talk much here about your feelings.
Jack
Guru, Holocaust denial seems to be linked with conspiracy theories involving Jews taking over the world. I haven’t heard of such theories involving Russians; they were always expansive in a straightforward way. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented on: Remembering Summer part 4.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/remembering-summer-part-4#comment-22016) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/remembering-summer-part-4)
This was in response to Phil:
Joop: I have never heard of those therapist (Hillen and Nygard) and take it there were not part of The Primal Institute; correct me if otherwise. Did you avoid the institute before connecting with them? I agree that being a ‘very angry’ person would be a good reason for seeking out Primal Therapy. Being refused admition I would feel would cause even more anger. and upsetness etc.
However, I do feel that using anger as a means to play the “Blame Game” is counter productive. I have my own history about my feeling on Judasim, which I hope does not prejudice me against a whole cultural set of poeple. Should anyone feel it’s relevant for me to write about it on this blog I will do so. There are people that I like and there are people that I do not like; in many cultures, and the rest I have little or no attitude about them until such time as I might confront, or be confrunted with them. BUT I would personally really like to leave it right there:- ‘liking’ or ‘not liking’. Any other judgment on my part I feel is pointless; least-ways for me
I will state an incident that happened at a retreat group where I called into question a therapist (not sure which, but my feeling is it was Vivian, my very favorite therapist), who started off on a tangent about Jews and Judaism, for what I felt was. “Jewish promotion” I interupted that therapist with “Stop being Jewish … start being human” then followed, after a very brief pause, “Stop being British … start being human” There was a very pregnant pause after I said that. then after a second or two the group resumed on another point.
I in no way was ever chastised, discriminated against, or had it held against me for that remark, as far as I know.
I felt, in hindsight that I was allowed to voice my feeling and it was, seemingly left at that.
On “being lied to”: So much that goes on out there in the world, is difficult to decide what is fact and what is not. To be ‘not able to stand being lied to” doesn’t really help me. I just leave it as MY feeling and move on .. and for me, that simplifies life. We are being, to repeat your phrase, all the time, especially by politicians; “being lied to”
Jack
Joop, I was curious did they tell you they would not see you because of your anti Semitic comments or did you assume that was the reason? Also you said ” that’s why I hate Jews” but they are not Jewish. Am I misunderstanding your meaning? Gretchen
” if I denied that Stalin arranged the deaths of ten million Russians does that make me anti -Russian ? ” Guru, I kind of think it does or at the very least something serious is going on. Why would anyone deny those murders when there is so much evidence that was indeed the case ? Are there deniers ? Probably. What difference does it make? The truth makes a difference and to those directly impacted it makes a difference. Gretchen
Gretchen: OK, that’s fine, but I am going to note something in response to what you wrote:”Are there deniers (of what happened in Russia) ? Probably. What difference does it make?”
So in the interest of fairness, if it doesn’t make any difference whether there are Russian holocaust deniers, then it shouldn’t make any difference if there are Jewish holocaust deniers as well, right? We can just safely shrug the whole thing off as errant observers in both cases rather than being bogged down in arguments about it on the blog in either case.
Guru, Oh you misunderstood ! I was quoting your question above where you asked “what difference would it make ? Just wondering aloud” so I said ” does it make a difference?” And then I responded ” the truth makes a difference and to those directly impacted it makes a difference” . My whole point was that both things would be equally relevant of course. Gretchen
Yes, it’s hard to know that you were quoting me without quotation marks, but okie dokie then…
Linda and Les B. , I just wanted to welcome you both to the blog! Gretch
Guru, Yes you are right but since my whole post was responding to your previous post I thought it was clear. You can see if you look back that I took your final three questions and answered each one separately . Gretchen
Duly noted for the records. Excellent work!
Guru , Thanks I appreciate that , I just hope you are not dissapointed. G.
At this stage of life I’ve become so inured to disappointments that I have largely forgotten what it means to be disappointed. Perhaps that is blissful state all its own…
Jack, Vicki, Why does WordPress keep logging me out? I have to sign in for every comment! Gretch
Gretchen, I did not say I hated jews, I said that I did not like jews anymore. There is a difference. Victoria Hillen is jewish as I see it. Her son’s name is Nathaniel and when I asked her if she is jewish she came up with the typical jewish runaround which is that she did go to some church growing up, it is always some vague protestant denomination so that one looses interest asking any further and she said she almost became a priest (that’s also a favorite). I got her when I asked her where her great grand parents came from and she replied Odessa. So I stopped seeing her because she wasn’t being honest with me. Then I got into a whole lot of trouble with my new neighbors, of whom the husband was an Hungarian jew (and who denied it and belonged to some vague protestant denomination) and in trouble with surrounding neighbors, Hungarian and Russian jews. They killed one of my favorite cats and that was the moment I decided to seek therapy with Jorid Nygard again. Jorid at first was pleased, but when I called her back it was obvious she had spoken with Victoria and Jorid told me I could have a session with Judy. Now, Judy was Jorid’s sit-in when Jorid was on vacation or sick and I did not like Judith, because all she did during the session was sit in front of me and practically say nothing during the entire session, as if she did not want to be there. So I told Jorid no, not with Judith and Jorid’s reply was: ‘getting a little anti-Semitic in your old age’ or something like that. So I said fuck this and wrote Victoria, who then replied I was better off at the psychology department of the UCLA or so. So, there I was, cat killed, extremely hateful neighbors and no help. I must say, I started disliking jews because they don’t like me. I’m probably too white, blond, blue eyes and look too much like a German. I was often approached in a hostile way by guys or girls, or I just did not exist or they were scared. Who were jewish, I realized later. So, I don’t like jews, because they’re weird people. And when it comes to the holocaust here I have my little video again that made me think:
My opinion is that why did the Germans go through all these lengths to first gather jews in ghettos, then bring them in trains eastwards, then tattoo them and shave their heads etc etc instead of just dumping them somewhere and starve them to death. Much easier and cheaper. But I understand, it has much more evilness and evil flair if you have the Germans gas people and then burn them. But it doesn’t make sense. The Germans were fighting a war for their very existence and at the same time they were doing all these elaborate evil things. While, as I said, they could have thrown the jews somewhere in a field in the freezing cold, with no food and no hygiene and get it over with. That’s at least what Eisenhower did (who was jewish) with over a million german soldiers after the war. He got away with it by creating a new sort of enemy soldier, not POW’s because then he would have to adhere to Geneva convention but he created DEF’s (displaced enemy forces) and have them rot in a mud field and die like rats. Look it up it’s all on the internet.
Famine was also a favorite of Lenin and later Stalin, who were either jewish or pro jewish (jewish wifes, quarter jewish etc). They killed tens of millions of White Christians in this way. Think about it. Or not. whatever. The so called Russian revolution was an alien takeover (jews) of a white Christian nation with a hatred and sadism that is so typical in my opinion. But whatever. Then I have to again come back to this video and hope I find friends and some peace in that community:
Joop, I’m not sure you can hear this which is fair enough. Eisenhower, Victoria and Jorid are not in fact Jewish not that it should matter at all in my opinion. It does seem clear that when you don’t like someone you decide they must be Jewish which is really ar the root of group hate. I think this is why we have to be so careful what we support in each other as things can quickly spin out of control. It’s so easy to project our anger on to others but I’m sure you know all this. I’m sorry it did not work out with Jorid or Victoria but I’m sure there is a therapist that would be helpful . I also think if you find meditation useful then that is positive as well. Gretchen
Joop who I know very well and i am tempted to say I ‘love’ (as much as I am capable and not in any ‘gay’ kind of way) anyway I have a lot of respect and regard for him. He also has a great sense of humor and his love of punk rock is infectious or at least was to me…………………anyway and this is none of my business really and I hope he doesn’t mind but what I feel like saying is all these difficulties he had with these therapists and neighbors etc was AFTER he had come to the PI to do prmal therapy and left in fairly short order feeling un-helped, mis-understood etc. In my opinion a fairly common story at least among most people I know and respect but he seemed to accept that just as a ‘big def\eat’ and look elsewhere.
In my own case I went in a different direction but in my own way got into other difficulties (My brother in Ireland just told me a ‘saying’ he heard there “No two people go mad in the same way” which I thought was funny/clever)…………I got into overwork especially. This to me brings up another aspect of PT that I have never talked about much but I think is actually a very large issue or was at least. That is most of us Europeans came here on tourist visas to get in and were very often ‘illegal’ after a month.To me and I am sure to others this was a very insecure and scary feeling and we reacted in different way in my own case being a quite insecure and scared person I made sure as best as I could that I could ‘survive’ and this set the template for a lot of my time and what I did her. But the point is for Janov and the PI to knowingly bring people here and put in the maelstrom of insecurity and ‘survival’ while at the same time expecting them to delve into their deepest most painful and insecure selves is ridiculous and a contra-diction in terms. I feel in my own case now I am ‘retired’ I can sort of do that. But that again brings me to the ‘irresponsibility’ of the PI to have a set up like that, Janov and others must have known how unlikely that would be to work if they thought about it (which they should)
My ‘fantasy’ always even back in Ireland/England in the 1970’s was the PI would open there. But that brings up in a funny way the “Jewish” angle………………..Janov was never about empowering people where they lived and in their own community he was all like they are ‘neurotic’ cultures anyway and I remember one ‘discussion’ at the PI where people were debating which country was the most ‘neurotic’ I think they settled on Germany which is ironic indeed as at that time Germany supplied a huge bulk of their customers/patients. But Janov like most others and pretty much all Jews have swallowed whole the “Myth of German Infamy” as a book is called and probably were never interested in setting up a clinic there. What I feel is the Jewish ‘chosen race’ myth is operating even there, we know the ‘truth’ you come to us, forget you tired old neurotic cultures whatever and where ever they are come here to la la land and you come here and no help pretty soon you are borderline homeless and scared. This to me is or was the height of ‘irresponsibiliy’ and combined with the zoo like atmosphere in groups was a recipe was ‘failure’ and so it was. Speaking of tired old neurotic cultures and I have said this before I find the average Irish person can conflict solve and ‘get over’ things way better that most primal ‘veterans’ who have imbibed (Jewish again) attitude on no forgiveness endless recriminations etc. I know a very good one here.
Where am I? I am saying Joop got ‘lost’ in his own way as I did in mine……………..to me it was pretty much inevitable and it is so easy to then get lost in the effects of getting lost. That is why I feel it has been helpful to me to be able to sort of retract some of those steps, I am sure it is sometimes not pretty and I piss off people but it’s something I feel impelled to do. I follow my feelings on that one lol. Not again that it is my business but I feel it is good Joop speaks about this and I feel he STILL gives the PI a ‘pass’ and focuses a lot on the difficulties he had later but the PI WAS the reason he came here was the beginning of a lot of problems. It is not that I want to ‘blame’ the PI for everything I have become well aware my insecurity and fear was deep in me from childhood I ‘own’ that feeling now I really do but at the same time I am not going to say ‘it was all my fault if only I listened to the PI ‘properly’ I would have got to my feelings etc etc No I am not going to say that because it is not true. I did my best the environment here was bad even very bad and for a ‘clinic’ to blame the patient is upside down if the patients ‘fails’ the clinic ‘fails’ too.
I think it is good for him Joop to address this now and even the fact he writes here shows that he is in his own way.I credit him with also pointing out to me how important this ‘Jewish” angle is in life and politics in general. We are dealing with some big ‘propaganda’ here I am just staring to find out. I being a sort of ‘present orientated’ person only saw all the bad behavior of Israel and kind of kept it to that but Janov himself has taught us to understand anything you need to understand the ‘history’. That is true of individuals and also ‘cultures’ there is a lot to Jewish culture it after all gave us Christianity and primal therapy the two biggest ‘influences’ in my life it also gave us Marxism a big influence on the life of some of my friends but now I like to delve beneath a lot of that And I am reading a lot of history etc it is fascinating and I have the time. I actually really like this Kollerstrom guy he is eccentric and a bit weird but he is a ‘free thinker’ which I love and that is another reason I reacted so strongly to Gretchen immediately saying he was a ‘moron’ and really going over board to discredit the guy.It gave me a glimpse of what Joop complains about the ‘group think’ and the defensiveness that has ‘worked’ so well for them…………….so well that is it ILLEGAL to ‘doubt’ the holocaust in most European countries. Margaret I have checked there ARE laws against it in Belgium so watch what you ‘think’ Should not that be a BIG clue something is being spun and covered up when it is ‘illegal’ to talk about it. That is the power of ‘Jewish propaganda’ it has awesome power and I hope I won’t live to regret writing stuff like this. Not forgiving and not forgetting and taking vengeance is part of the program…………
This is one reason I like Kollerstrom he goes down to Scotland Yard to be ‘arrested’. To me this so funny in a very English kind of way.It’s like a John Cleese/Monty Python kind of a situation but also with a somewhat serious point. I think it is so funny when he and the guard are ‘agreeing’……………..to call this man a ‘moron’ well I wouldn’t……………….
The guy is goofy: to say the least, and not in humorous way, as I saw it. Your prior post was also another long winded attempt, as I saw it, to defend your position about Jews, Judaism, Janov, the institute and your own mental reasonings. Sort of a justification of yourself, your thinking and opinions.
It’s ok to state your opinion without having to justify it, but it’s not ok to viciously attack, verbally or otherwise, other people as you certainly did on your arrival onto this blog about me. Why I say it’s not ok is that it has a tendency to backfire on you as I feel it has.
If you were to keep you opinions to “like”, “dislike”, “indifference to” or some other reflection of your feeling; it then keeps it within ones own domain, as I experience it Not to suggest that you don’t voice it, but to voice it in a manner that both you and everyone reading or hearing you, knows that it solely belongs to you and you alone. Bringing in other to bolster your own view in essence is meaningless.
That’s my feeling and I’m sticking to it.
Jack
> I am still feeling shocked by the straightforward example of pure racism we saw in Joops comment.
> to generalize feelings of anger and hatred to an entire ethnic or cultural group, ignoring the fact every group consists of individuals, seems to be a clear sign of unresolved feelings being acted out and projected. but it feels scarry because of its intensity.
> you asked a very good question there, Gretchen, it also crossed my mind, whether the reason for not being admitted into therapy was really the antisemitic feelings or something else.
>
> I think the only time we can to some degree talk in group qualities it is when groups gather under a clear commonly shared ideologic and extreme ideology, and even then there might be huge differences among the group members .
>
> to read those statements about Jewish people in general is shocking in its insaneness.
> M
> p.s. it seems quite clear, to me in any case, the urge to ask people to start with whether they are Jewish, already is a weird thing to do, and enough to put people on guard.
> it would not occur to me to walk around asking people, neighbours or therapists or whoever, about their being protestant or christian or Jewish or whatever, unless it would be part of the subject of the conversation in some way.
>
> it seems pretty clear the mindset was one of suspicion and negative stereotyping and prejudice to start with,.
> kind of a selffullfilling profecy as to not being liked by setting it up yourself by your own approach, and then go ‘see?’
>
> i find it scary, but it must probably not be much fun for the person living like that in what must feel like a hostile world.
> M
What I wonder is if a therapist really dislikes a prospective patient for some reason wouldn’tthat be a valid reason to reject him for therapy. It would make the process difficult I would think. Better to refer that patient to a different therapist.I have no idea what happened with Joop. But, for example, if a therapist is Jewish and the patient is extremely anti-Semitic, maybe that is a problem. Even understanding that thatprejudice is caused by childhood pain and that the person can’t help it. The reverse would be true too in that it wouldn’t work for the patient having a low regard for his or her therapist.Phil Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil, Yes you are right, sometimes it’s just not a match and it’s best the therapist simply make a referral . Jack and Margaret, I do agree wth so much of what you have both said. I’m about to start a session so I may need to finish this later but lastnight was the first time I saw the idea of censorship in a slightly different way. Some of the more recent comments are so toxic, sick and bullying that I can no longer see how this is useful. I think the final straw for me was seeing how this sort of rhetoric manipulates the more fragile amongst us. There s some interesting reading online and in the bookstores and specifically I went searching for ” The Case for Censorship’. One of the things it discusses is the reasons for ” hate speech” . Obviously there is the search for those who feel similar to us. , I’m starting my session – I will finish later ! Gretch
.
Gretchen,I’m in favor of free speech but when it’s the same points repeatedly,the craziness, and bullying, then to me it’s excessive. I want to be on this forumbut if it was any other group I think I would give up and not bother.Also, it’s hard for me to see how all that ranting would be therapeutic.Oh, well sometimes it’s triggered my feelings, but I don’t really need that.Phil Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:03:26 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes, Phil. Things trigger us and we deal with that, taking care of the pain brought up, feeling it back to its roots. But after that the irritating thing is just that, a fresh pain to be avoided. We don’t want to fill our lives with irritants, we want meaningful and joyous experiences because now feeling, we can enjoy.
I have thought about your comment Grechen with respect to censoring and censorship. I strongly feel that an open blog as this is: it is correct and offers many insights as to how others deal with their feelings. That, to and for me, is it greatest asset.
However, I do feel there needs to be a way for the group consensus to be aired if it is generally agreed that one person, even if that person is me … (I’m not perfect ……….. yet! 🙂 and 😦 .still struggling with it.).
My suggestion for what it is worth. If many feel that a comment or post is”- defensive, abusive, objectionable in one context or another, it could be for those souls that feel too intimidated to comment … is to make a comment, but do not click the “name” button after writing your comment … or even resign-up under a pseudonym … the option being there above the comment box. That way you will be announced as anonymous.
I do feel that my poking Patrick and sometime Guru is effective … even if after few day pause, they come back again on another tack. Coming back on another tack does mean the old comment thread is then dropped … more often than not. No-one likes being ganged-up upon … except the real masochist.
Just my idea, others may well have better ones … without suggesting outright banning.
Jack
On the PSG (primal support group) forum Patrick probably would have been”moderated”over the Holocaust postings. Not for being wrong, but for inundating uswith information and his views on the subject. Moderated for lecturing, dumping, andexcessive off topic postings. Also those views might impact a group member in apersonal way, and that would be another reason for moderation.After that his posts would not havegone through to the group without being reviewed. Only non-Holocaustposts would go through. After a while he would be released from moderation.That group functions well with the guidelines which are in place, and itmostly self regulates. The guidelines are not rigidly enforced. First some group membersmight complain about the behavior and then a warning would be made etc.There was only one person moderated in the last year, and it wasfor flooding us with his views and information on vegan diets, animal rights,and vaccinations. That person ended up leaving the group. I had nothing to do with putting in place the guidelines. The members there almost allseem to like the guidelines enforced and the way the group operates. Phil
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:01:49 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I do read the Primal Support group emails and very occasionally respond, and regularly receive the guidelines.
I was once moderated about a ruckus I had with one person, but right now I have forgotten what it was all about.
I was not too concerned about it at the time, and did not in any way feel I was silences, thwarted or even restricted. That was what the rules/guidelines were, and I was willing to comply. I am not sure the same could be applied to the Primal Institute blog. Maybe Gretchen would … dunno.
Jack
Phil – it makes sense that’s how you would run a blog. I have looked at the blog and feel no urge at all to write there. Similar to Janov’s blog censored and dead for the most part. One of the great things about this blog is it was NEVER censored and now it seems here it comes when some real and important ‘truths’ start to be revealed. At least I think so.
Patrick,The owner and founder of the PSG blog no longer participate, I simplyam running it as she wants. On this blog you have presented you views. What more do you want?You could do that on the PSG as well, but after a while you would be shut downfor repeated postings on off topic postings.Phil
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 03:50:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I just said Phil for some reason the PSG blog does not appeal to me. Neither does Janov’s. This one does! and I have always given Gretchen her props for that let’s hope things don’t change too much. This morning a friend of mine said Gretchen might feel or even be in an awkward position even allowing discussions about the holocaust. That’s something I had not thought about but if true shows once again the depth and the lack of freedom in this area. It might not be ‘illegal’ in the US but I am sure it would be very frowned on by some people. Gretchen has made it clear she does not like it or agree with it so I would hope that is ok. But I might be wrong…………………….that’s what I hate such blatant propaganda right out in the open and people either don’t see it or are not allowed to see it. This so kind of version of ‘hiding in plain sight’ the brain washing I mean it is so blatant so right out front that people do not notice………………once a people are that brain washed convincing them to vaccinate their babies over and over again is easy I suppose…………….or any number of other lies. I even think people somehow know they are being lied to so in a strange way they then EXPECT to be lied to some more and then they DEMAND to be lie to……………….human psychology is tricky and goes just a little bit beyond mommy mommy etc……….not that that is not valid just that it is not the ONLY thing.
> thinking more about it all, I guess carrying or even cultivating anger is not an unusual defense against big feelings of fear and insecurity.
> I used to be like that myself, attacking and showing my claws because really I felt scared, but that last bit I had to admit to myself gradually in therapy.
> becoming vulnerable takes a lot of hard work at first, but then seems to turn into some kind of strength..
> it specially helps when the truth no longer is a threat, but rather an allie, or do you spell it ally?
>
> although I admit anger and hatred scare me, I also sense the pain that lays underneath in many cases, and do feel concern and a wish to be of help in some way..
>
> but blind rage and tight defenses do seem to trigger some early stuff with me, stuff some of my nightmares are made of..
>
> Joop, I do hope you find some peace of mind with the Tibetan meditation.
> M
Gretchen writes: Joop, I’m not sure you can hear this which is fair enough. Eisenhower, Victoria and Jorid are not in fact Jewish not that it should matter at all in my opinion.
Joop writes: Gretchen check your history; Eisenhower was a Swedish Jew (the best of both worlds, right?) look it up!
It dawns on me that everybody leaves my cat out. Murdered, he was. By a bunch of insane jews, and that’s a fact. JUST A FACT (they exist you know, insane jews).
I worked for a moving company were every customer that called and was jewish wanted to know: where am I from? I had them guess, first guess almost ALWAYS Germany, second almost ALWAYS Sweden. And then that is normal?
I used to absolutely not bother with these things, but over time I started thinking, quite normal, isn’t it? I’m not guilty what happened to anybody before I was born, here in Holland the tendency is making Dutch people feel guilty about their colonial past even. Has nothing to do with me, nothing! But most people swallow this crap.
Once again, I DO NOT HATE JEWISH PEOPLE but I certainly do no like them. Again, there is a difference.
Now I am the hater on the blog, people think I have a problem. I’m okay, but I just don’t like jews anymore, okay. That’s all there is to it.
I’m not going around killing other people’s cats or animals.
I’m totally okay last time I checked. I can still say that about myself, I care enough to be able to say that. But do not touch my animals. And do not cut me out, when I need your help the most. That’s silly behavior. And completely unprofessional.
I also want to say that I know some jewish people here that I do like, okay. I haven’t discussed this problem I am having because I do not want to loose them.
You guys are not reading at all what I said before. You do group thinking too, I’m the bad guy with the anger and hatred. Anger, yes I’m angry and that is normal after all the frustration I had in my personal life as well as my experience with people. Hatred no, except old hate towards my dad, but that is old.
My opinion about Primal Therapy is is that they totally fucked up. Maybe it is because they are jews or americans, I don’t know. I’m just damn glad that I am who I am, where I came from and where I will go. So many people are lost. It’s not fair.
Hi Joop
I think you got it wrong. The one totally fucked up is you. Big time. I don’t know where you come from, where you got your ideas from, but they are totally fucked.
Blaming the Jews.
Are you really that crazy? Bigoted? Stupid?
It’s a wonder you are still on this blog. I would’ve thrown you out of here a long time ago.
I can’t believe people like you exist in today’s age. You are a relic from the past. Go back there.
Tom
I can’t believe the jews still exist.
And thanks Margaret for hoping I find some peace of mind with the meditation.
Hi all, Thanks to all on and off the blog for your feedback, it really is helpful. What I started to say earlier was how toxic this was beginning to feel. Mostly it doesn’t feel helpful in my view. So I decided to do some reading and this is where I am. I stand by my assertion that in the end this isn’t about the Holocaust or even what’s good or bad about Primal in my opinion. But that being said it is hurtful to many. It begins to feel like an assault and frankly I know for a fact that it keeps some from participating anonymously or not. I have never censored this blog and it’s interesting but I was not for the banning of hate talk that so many countries have adopted. But I now see it a little differently. I tend to think most things are better exposed then not but there is a point when it begins to feel like there is something else going on., Also this issue would have come up whatever form of prejudice we were talking about. I say this because I have noticed that argument often used to excuse the behavior. Every other tragedy including those personal to us is then compared ,in this case, with the Holocaust. As if we could come up with a worse event that somehow proves something. I think we can all agree there are many tragic events period. Anyway I think this kind of rhetoric is not really meant for discussion. It is meant to disable its victim and to find others who feel the same. The search for support often leads to those least prepared to handle the situation. The need to cause pain perplexes me. I always think if you have ever felt even a minute of real pain you don’t want to say or do hurtful things to others. Prejudice is insidious isn’t it. We can hate groups of people because it is somehow safe but if we look at individuals we might have to deal with a living, breathing, feeling person. So this is where I am for now. I don’t have a problem with anyone saying what they think or feel and I don’t mind what ever people choose to discuss but I think we can all agree when it’s enough. So I would like to put a period on this – no links to Kollerstrom or Holocaust issues. It’s clear we feel differently and that is that. We don’t need to repeat things endlessly. There are other blogs to post these things on and no one has erased your views from this blog. You can copy and paste your thoughts anywhere else you like. Hopefully that will be honored. Gretchen
Gretchen – I find your logic pretty un-convincing. And also very telling when we finally hit the Big Kahuna of propaganda and prejudice (in my view) you call a halt to it and you were SO quick to attack Kollerstrom as a ‘moron’ most unlike you mostly you have been very neutral on just about any subject. To me and maybe only to me (and Joop probably) it says a lot. Now I believe you are sincere in your views and I imagine you really believe all the holocaust ‘stories’ this though has nothing to do with whether they are true or not. I am literally engrossed in a book called “The Myth of German Infamy” which to me is amazing…………..amazing in the truths it shows. All of these years I KNEW there was something very bad about Israel as a force in the world I watch and watch this and feel compelled finally to dig into the ‘history’ and there is a story there that is most or less exactly the opposite of what all of us have been told and believe. And now to me at least the world starts to make a lot more sense even if that’ knowledge is scary and dark for the most part. Like what will they do next what world war will be fomented who knows………….to me Joop in not a ‘hateful’ person unfortunately for him it all got a bit too much for him. And a good part of the reason is he has an inquiring mind and I would say is a very honest person. He is after all Gretchen one of your patients I don’t think shutting down what he has to say even if it a bit rough and ready is not that cool. He left the PI without it doing much of anything for him and tried his way with other therapists. Like me he seems to kind of have come back and as I told you many times I have always appreciated the way you dealt with me. Except in several of our ‘debates’ in the last year or two I found your answers and approach pretty un-satisfactory but hey nobody’s perfect and I can over look things but when you go in guns blazing on this Kollerstrom guy I’m whoa what is actually going on here.
And now you declare any discussion of him off side and not allowed………………are you perhaps ‘afraid’ of what I might reveal since I told you I look forward to reading his book (It has not come yet). Why the sudden halt to ‘free thinking’ why is THIS so special.I think it is ‘special’ all right specially big and important and does cast some light on primal too (Give me time)
The other thing is you never attempted to answer my question how does 20 become 3 (and that includes ‘attempted’ suicides – so you leave open what is the real number could be 1 or even 0. Going with 1 you have ‘divided’ by 20 there not a small distortion that. And as I said a kind of neat inversion where you seem to ‘multiply’ by 20 to get to the 6 million number. I am sure Kollerstrom will pretty much ‘prove’ that (and not only him of course) but are you perhaps having cold feet about how all this information is coming together? Gretchen to me this is a test for you let’s see how you handle it, ‘truth’ can be very inconvenient as Al Gore tried to show us.
Of course that was me…………..
Gretchen – I feel a bit bad now putting you on the spot again about this. After all you did not answer before so presumably you have some reason not to. But what I am reacting to now is about you use a lot of flowery and nice world and vague words too………………and I am annoyed that you slip and slide and DON”T answer the question but come in now with the big ‘threat’ censorship. It moves the topic away and become some kind of general discussion but this whole suicide thing I have gone round and round with you before and I ONLY do it because to me you never come clean about it. I am sure you were all doing your best in those days as you understood things even if you were wrong about a lot but to ‘compound’ it now well that is not impressive. You of all people should know that to make progress you have to face up to the ‘truth’……..are you?
Quote:- “You of all people should know that to make progress you have to face up to the ‘truth’……..are you?” Who’s truth????? Yours ONLY it seems.
Are you suggesting here that you are ‘fully expressing your feelings’ To me, you NEVER express your feelings … you act-them-out. The very antithesis of Primal Therapy as I have experienced it. Perception of what is “truth” and what is “fictional” is in they eyes of the beholder, as I see it. But then perhaps at this late stage of my game I’m going blind … who knows!!!!
Like you, I’m not able to stop POKING you, whereas you seemingly can’t give up on your quest to prove that “truth” = Patrick Griffin. The one down the rabbit hole, I assume 🙂 .
I feel (for what it worth) that you are way more than annoyed … you sound bitter. If you can live with that then “hey hoo for you.”
My take on the 3 v 20 suicides. I feel that the three Gretchen was referring to were the 3 that took place at the Institute building, whereas I feel your reference was the 20 that after a little time in therapy decided to do what I feel they’d been contemplating for quite some time. then on reading “The Primal Scream” saw the possibility of an out of that dreadful feeling (I am aware of how dreadful that feeling is and can be since I’ve been there). I was once suicidal after a major break-up with a lover. I understand that you have never felt suicidal, but you seemingly know what it’s all about. Just my feeling about you and I could be wrong, but I feel sure you’ll correct me, alternatively you’ll just ignore the question. No problem for me if that’s you decision.
Jack
Geezus: All this seems to me to add up to is a long, long winded DEFENSE. Yes; defense of YOUR POSITION. You are always right and only you and those that fully agree with you are right and the rest of us WRONG. You acuse others (convenietly) of not answering your question and yet you of all the people, never answer any questions either. Forget about my questions I know how you feel about me; you’ve made that quite clear.
It seems you can’t leave it alone and it seem to BUG you no end. I suspect it huts very badly; and perhaps you are not even aware how badly you are hurting.
Gretchen has stated her case. Accept it. She’s there and been there for many people; not just YOU and Joop. She created this blog for the benefit of ALL of us.
Jack
This brings up a related point: If you find something you don’t like reading, why not pass it over or ignore it individually instead of forcing it out of view of everyone else because a minority may not like the words (ie. censorship)? I am not saying this in a covert attempt to inflict misery or to back up the controversial opinions on the blog, but rather I’m trying to show some of the complications that can emanate from suppressing potential knowledge from everyone else who may be neutral or indifferent (aside from extraneous social validation issues I haven’t clearly discussed, I place myself in this neutral camp).
This reminds me of a boss I had at work many years ago: I had a conversation with her about multi-million dollar wrongful death suits. “The ruination of our country!”, she would say. I would respond: “How do I handle being upset when I see I will have to work for 200 years as a modern-day economic wage slave while big settlement recipients will walk off with many millions of dollars??” She replied with curt wisdom, “Just don’t read the Goddamn article!” Case closed; off I went back to work.
Guru, That is a cute story about your boss! I do agree in most cases but it’s not a small minority but in fact the vast majority who object. G.
This music reminds me how much Joop liked the Sex Pistols.(me too) If you listen to the words here he is going on about the Berlin Wall and other matters he mentions Belsen too. So should this be ‘censored’ too this is a real slippery slope. And if you ‘censor’ you are doing nothing different than regular ‘repressed’ society. If you censor I probably would have to go …………….which is probably what you want anyway so I should not have said that. Well you can then have your nice little boring and politically correct blog. As if ‘primal’ was not half dead already now you kill it off totally
Patrick:
If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you something. I think it would only be fair to everyone if this topic is broached fully, OK?
Does this chain of events and thoughts make any sense or resonate with you?
a) Patrick is super pissed off and outraged at the Primal Institute/Janov/Primal Therapy in general
b) When Patrick gets outraged, he has a tendency to hurl insults at whom he am angry at so he can hurt that person or group in return
c) Institute staff/veteran patients/Primal associates are largely impervious to conventional insults
d) What can Patrick do if he really wants to hurt them back without resorting to useless conventional insults?
e) Oh! I know! The Institute has a strong Jewish influence due to the cultural background of its associates, so why not use a polarizing figure about the Jewish holocaust? That would be more insidiously effective at hurting them than just an ordinary insult, wouldn’t it?
Please do understand I am not presenting this list “A” through “E” in an accusatory tone, but rather I think it would only be fair to the blog readers to have this answered more clearly. Maybe this list is entirely wrong on my part? But can you in all fairness and courtesy tell us this list is not true for you so we can start to look away from possible ulterior motives on your part? Thank you.
CORRECTION on b) When Patrick gets outraged, he has a tendency to hurl insults at whom he is angry at so he can hurt that person or group in return
Guru – you ask interesting questions and to be fair there probably is truth in what you are suggesting. But this kind of always comes back to the same place in that rather then look at the merits and demerits of an ‘argument’ the focus comes back on the person making it. Of course in a way this is valid. And in primal that also of course in kind of the process that IS valid but it can also get unbalanced in the EVERY ‘argument’ ever made reflects or says something about the person making it. But there is a balance here and to always just focus or question the character/motivations of the person putting forward the argument can and does lead to a kind of absurdity. The absurdity of excessive psycho-analysis. I mean to primal people it should be a ‘given’ that ANY thing anyone does or says is about them but are we to stop there and never look at the ‘real’ world.
In my own case I tend to get lost in the ‘argument’ a few days ago as this was starting I had some memories and feelings that seemed important and I almost got round to writing about them but then it kind of all gets swept away in the ‘fight’ or ‘argument’. That is a problem I have sometimes I will admit that.
About the “Jewish” connection to primal therapy and so on……………Dr Kruse has talked about how as a person gets ‘healthier’ and his brain and body improves he tends to see more and more how things are ‘coupled’ or ‘linked’. He sees ‘connections’ that are normally missed. Primal therapy has a “jewish connection’ it is after all based on Freud who was Jewish also, psycho-analyis, and Marxism are 2 modern notions quite influenced by a “Jewish’ way of thinking. But this is a huge subject as I say Christianity is also to say the least heavily influenced by jewish thinking. I better stop here this topic is too huge and Jack will probably blow (another) gasket I will have to listen to his drivel on this as I do every day
I would rather mentions bits and pieces as it occurs to me and that is why Gretchens sort of censorship idea I do not like. To ‘ban’ seeing or mentioning ‘connections’ or ‘links’ between things that at first might seem to have little or nothing to do with each other…………..well to me it is to kind of enter ‘flat world’ the kind of world for example Phil seems to live in. Vaccines are good, to even doubt the connection between HIV and AIDS is ‘crazy’ all kinds of weak political correctness, only an ‘anti-semite’ could be a ‘holocaust denier’ etc (That last one takes the biscuit you have 2 concepts there that are highly dubious and then they get equated. That to me is an example of very ‘weak’ linking so weak it has no meaning)
But your questions are good Guru I will keep them in mind and ‘answer’ in fits and starts as I prefer to do. After all I am not writing a ‘book’ which ” for fucks sake is free on the internet’ lol and why don’t you read it and put all your questions to bed
quote:- “But this kind of always comes back to the same place in that rather then look at the merits and demerits of an ‘argument’ the focus comes back on the person making it. “.
I could well be wrong, however, in my 30 years of therapy that is EXACTLY what I understand is the essence of Primal Therapy. I grant that you next sentence is:- “Of course in a way this is valid”. It is MORE than valid … it is the VERY ESSENCE of how Primal therapy is conducted … as was revealed (very clearly and succinctly, to me, in:- “The Primal Scream”) It’s all about HOW we perceive it. The rest is totally dependent upon how the left lobe views it.
Once one get’s into integrating the left and right lobe of the brain (the thinking and the feeling aspects) , the only resort, know to man, to permit anyone access to the right lobe is:- by putting it all back to the one on the floor .. the patient.
If that aspected was avoided we’d be back to the approach that Freudian analysis practiced:- “free association”, which I gather what you seeming ONLY want to do.
If you are irritated by having it ALL put back to you … then for fuck’s sake get as far away from Primal Therapy as you can, otherwise you’ll be for ever stuck.
Jack
Addendum: “Argument” is precisely what Primal Therapy aims to completely get away from That according to Primal Theory is a left lobe phonomin. and is EXACTLY what most of us pursued after being traumatized (the brain being turned inside out as t’were) and the right lobe was forever repressed. Only after a full re-living event, is it permitted to come back into full consciousness.
It is this lack of access to the repressed feelings that permits the need to argue ones point of view. It’s a sort of justification of our neurotic status quo. I did a great deal of it and was relatively good at it with my peers.
Once such a devastating event of re-living occurs .. the insights abound and so much more is revealed unto ourselves.
It is very difficult to be convincing to anyone not having had the same kind of experience to conceive it. And I have done more than more fair share of trying to convince many … mostly failing … but leastways I tried, for whatever reasoning within me, that need exists.
Jack
Hi Patrick
You are like your mate, Joop. CRAZY!
An anti-Semitic bastard.
You should crawl back to Ireland, where you came from. And stay there.
You are so full of yourself. Denigrating everyone and anyone on this blog. You are cruel beyond belief, disguising behind a pseudo intellectual façade.
You bring disrespect to all the Irish I have ever known.
Hate to say this, but Jack has always been right about you. You never, ever say the “feeling”. You make out that you have no clue, as to what you are feeling. But more likely because you are chicken shit, a mouse, a cry baby. It amazes me why you have been tolerated this long on this blog.
Go away, stay away. And don’t come back.
You bring shame onto all these vulnerable people on this blog.
Go.
Tom
Patrick, How does 3 become 20? I guess the same way 7 becomes 20. You keep talking about truth. But if you know the ” truth” why are you asking me? You already have made clear that your mind is made up. Not to mention I have discussed these things with you in the past and my responses are irrelevant.,I’m not sure you are really listening because you have already decided you know the answers. Your testing me ?? Really? As far as you reading Kollstroms book well even that seems redundant as you have decided this imbecile must be correct. You might want to read his book on crop circles too. You have decided that my telling you the guys a moron is also a conspiracy. The truth is I saw your link, l knew who he was and I said what I thought. Period. You seem to think this guys material is a threat. It’s so far from that. Patrick. You also imply it connects to Primal. Well how are you coming to that conclusion without reading the book? Once again the result comes before the investigation.. I’m not sure why you are going on about censorship. You have said your views. I simply ask that you not go on and on about it. We have spent two days and I just don’t think it’s unreasonable to movee forward now. Gretchen
OK Gretchen I can drop this about suicides I mean. It is a horror story to even think about but really if you NEVER come clean it has the tendency to come up again. And you DID say you knew of only 3 and that included ‘attempts’ and I had very PERSONAL expedience with quite a bit more than that. That is a kind of stubborn ‘fact’ you seem to think you can glide or gloss over. I don’t think it is.
And like anyone’s ‘credibility’ it is not in-exhaustible. So you can seemingly throw stones at the like of Kollerstrom so easily he is an ‘idiot’ and a ‘moron’ etc. I don’t want to get hung up on this guy either he is just one guy and I agree a bit eccentric. I also stumbled into this myself people who know more have known about some of these problems with holocaust ‘stories’ for a long time. (Nobody commented on the link Joop sent about Treblinka – I thought that was interesting and like I said if the credibility of the ‘stories’ fall down in even one aspect the whole structure is in danger of toppling. Another reason ‘censorship’ as threatened here and actually practiced in most
European countries is a very bad idea IMO. Something as simple as that how could 750,000 people be ‘processed’ in one facility like that well you see there ARE problems with the ‘story’) That book I mentioned and actually the correct title is “The Myth of German Villany” is probably deeper and a lot more historically informed that Kollerstrom, he is more of an intellectual gadfly. But I liked his link I have a weakness for eccentric English people.. To me he is funny and above all a ‘free thinker’ there are not so many nowadays, ‘ideology’ is everywhere. I saw something about ‘crop circles’ but I have no idea what he has to say about them. To me that kind of stuff is pure cuckoo nonsense and if he is taking this seriously I would for sure take him a bit less seriously. But I have to say most all of the stuff I have seen by him in not ‘nonsense’ I agree it is on the edges a bit but at least it is not ‘flat world’ and this has nothing to do with believing the world is flat. It has to do as I said to Guru with this kind of ‘weak’ political correctness I see exemplified by Phil here. A kind of useless middle of the road political correct world
And Gretchen so what if we have spent 2 days most 2 days here yield next to nothing and what does it mean to ‘move forward’ That is a kind of insidious jargon if people here were REALLY ‘moving forward’ they would not forever and ever be rehasing and saying the SAME things year after year cf Jack about ‘abolishing money’ or ‘sloping plane theory’ or any number of things that are REPEATED verbatim and all like they were fresh and written for the first time. No ‘moving forward’ there why do we have to ‘move forward’ from a very interesting subject we just arrived at? I believe something will be learned and there is no need at all to ‘move forward’ For once I agree with Janov without understanding ‘history’ we are lost………………
Gretchen as a way to show Kollerstrom was an ‘imbecile’ made a reference to ‘crop circles’ and him. Weill I followed that up and that turns out ALSO to be another example of just trying to ruin his name and reputation. He apparently has written a much praised book simply on the geometry and mathematics involved. He makes no speculations about who did them or why.. From all I can read about it his book was highly praised for it’s beauty and bringing the wonder of mathematics and patters to children. You can get a flavor of it below. Anyway just wanted to clear (including for myself) that up as it is the kind of ‘dis-information’ that is a bit typical and if left to hang around leaves the wrong impression (deliberately?)
http://www.hypermaths.org/cropcircles/chapter1/
Did I violate some kind of ‘ban’ now by simply mentioning his name? See what I mean by censorship? Censorship is almost always invoked when somebody has something to hide. Makes sense no?
I checked the link and read it. One final statement said it all to me. Quote:- ” but one needs a subscription to access earlier years.” then it went “Ah! I see …. money money and more money”.
I’d rather keep it to mommy, mommy and more mommy 🙂 :).
Life’s getting way too complex already. I even wonder why the need to go any further than simple arithmetic for most of us. Those, like me, that excelled at math; ok go for it
I remember so many in my classes, where most of the kids just got their mind boggling eyes glazed over, as soon as we started out on Algebra, Geometry, trigonometry, logarithms, and then Calculus. For the rest; is there really any need to go into all this other stuff????? Especially at the expense of feeling and our ability to adequately and appropriately express them. I D O N ‘ T T H I N K S O … but then that’s me,
Jack
Well maybe the reason he charges for his book it I can imagine it is not cheap to produce a book like that with all kinds of color graphics etc. So I suppose predictably you join the Gretchen Choir in finding fault on this guy………………….thought this is a ‘weak’ one he charges for his book . OMG how awful!!
Your’s is meanwhile ‘free on the internet’ because it would not be worth the paper it would have written on if it was written on paper. Your first ‘book’ if I remember you ‘charged’ for.though I don’t think you got more than 3 or 4 buyers.if even that. Maybe you can give us some non Gretchen type numbers (actual real numbers) about how many you ‘sold’ and don’t count the 4 I bought to give away to people. Still could not get them to read it. Now you find some ‘plot’ here by this guy to ‘charge’ for his book. Pathetic!
My guess is if you had any ‘success’ with your ‘book’ (always has to be in quotes)
you would be like some horrible pompous Winston Churchill of primal…………..squawking away much like him
Correction:- to my first paragraph where I wrote:- then ii went “Ah! I see …. money money and more money”. Should have read:- “then I went “Ah! I see …. money money and more money”.
‘it’ should have been ‘I’ .
Jack
> cultivating antagonism..
> mommy mommy look at me!
> you wouldn’t slap me would you?
>
> broken record, repeating and repeating and repeating…
> M
broken record?? these are topics I have not mentioned before (holocaust etc) I only HEARD of this guy Kollerstrom a week ago but how often has we been told of the wondrous effects of ‘abolishing money’. Who is really repeating and repeating. You know I called the ‘retreat’ the ‘repeat’ for a very good and deep reason. As far as ‘reducing’ it all to mommy mommy look at me you might as well keep it to that Margaret as you are not ALLOWED in your country to freely discuss some of these matters.Might as well keep believing everything can be explained by mommy mommy since you don’t have so much choice in the matter.
Yeah, I can stop. And I will stop hurting people, I got your point Gretchen. Sometimes it’s hard to see things clearly when pain clutters the mind. So I let everybody be, Patrick I suggest you do the same and we can all go our own ways. I’m not kidding and it is easy. Just like when you type a sentence and put a point after the sentence.
Joop – “going our own ways’ is not really my way. I believe in communication even if difficult and painful to me that is how we progress as human beings. But I am aware it is just my way but since it is I have to honor it and live by it without un-neccerality hurting other people. That of course is not so clear a lot of the time and I must admit when in doubt I tend to charge ahead – that’s just me. I am often surprised how it seems most ‘primal’ people are not that way I thought they would…………….
Saw this on the internet and wondered if it might be of interest
Anti-vaccine megachurch hit with measles epidemic, now offering free vaccinations
An outbreak of the measles at Kenneth Copeland’s Texas megachurch has gotten some attention because (1) measles is something children are generally vaccinated for, these days and (2) Kenneth Copeland is, of course, an anti-vaccine crackpot. In what seems to be yet another bitterly ironic attempt by God to teach noisy religious fundamentalists what-for, the church has thus become the epicenter of a small but worrisome outbreak that has so far infected 10 and resulted in the Department of State Health Services issuing an alert spanning North Texas.
That has megachurch pastors doing a bit of fancy dancin’, with Pastor Terri Pearson (Copeland’s daughter) walking back their leader’s anti-vaccination stance to explain to the congregation that no, God does not really want your children to contract a potentially dangerous disease that vaccinations have all but licked because duh.
Jack
Well okay, I throw this one in the group then:
Patrick with ‘going our own ways’ I mean the us and them way. People here are not open to ‘radical ideas’. They get their fancy from Sickmind Fraud and other cooks like Janov has become. They made something fairly simple purposely complicated so how far do you really think you get? If Gretchen and Burger flippin’ Baruch feel they can cut themselves a piece of the pie this way and have followers that allow them too, so be it. And perhaps they are doing good in their own way and help people. Or perhaps they think they do, whatever. There is a lot of hurt and emotions associated with being jewish, obviously and if you touch the subject of the holocaust, which is the ‘crown’ of their millennia of suffering, their ‘summum bonum’ of their suffering, they get hateful and start getting dangerous in their heads. And then they need a therapy. And they find a therapy, a truly healing therapy. A therapy possibly for everybody. And then they fuck that up. Because that’s what they always do. The jews. For everybody. Always. But not for themselves. There, put that in your shofar and smoke it, fuckers. Sometimes people should put you in your place, with pain in my conscience and heart, but fuck it I will straighten out again and be on my merry way. I suggest you all do the same. My apologies, thanks for nothing and this time I will really put a point after the sentence.
Joop: Having known you this is a completely other side of you I never saw before. I am in no way trying to discredit you, but I see in these comments of yours a lot of anger and I do wonder if it is just the tip of some inner iceberg.
I am not sure how long you have been reading this blog, but I will take this opportunity to repeat (at Patrick’s chagrin), what I feel is the best way to express MY anger, in order to permit getting through it and thence it remaining only a memory thereafter.
First to own the feeling … in that it belongs to me and is not.some universal “truth” out in the stratosphere. Then after owning it; to sit with myself and express it. My way is to lay down on my bed or a sofa and thrash into with my arms and fist and blow off every expletive I can think of at that moment. It may in some cases, depending on the valance, to go through it several times.
What I know for me to refrain from is; making it a “blame game”.. For that achieves nothing for me. I cannot change anyone other than myself. The person or thing will remain after my expressing my feeling.
I do see in these comments of yours as a “Blame Game” and seemingly your attempt to justify yourself through and by it. I hope by whatever means or therapy you do in the future that you are able to transcend a great deal of it.
So!!! good luck Joop. Jack
Subscribing. Been away from the computer and from town for 9 days, even out of cell phone tower range for three of the days. As wacky as some of the stuff is that is said here, I surely did miss the relative sanity of this blog community.
> and now for something completely different…
> learning about developmental psychology, just learned a foetus can among a lot of other things also cry in the womb.
> knew about hickups and thumbsucking and peeing and swallowing, but not about crying!
> wonder what might make it cry there…
>
>
Margaret: Yeah!! I too wonder what it must be crying about … it must be hurting. I have a feeling that I too might have cried in the womb.
My mother’s father committed suicide whilst my mother was 4 months pregnant with me and she told me many years later when I was in my teens, that she refused to cry and grieve her fathers death, whom she love dearly, because of the baby inside her … me. My feelings I’ve had so far, like womb feelings is that it was way too tight in there … She must have tensed up a lot to not grieve her daddy …that could have a lot of bearing on why I am gay … I didn’t like it in there very much , and perhaps for the amount of crying I still continue to do in the present could account for that.
Just mentioning that Margaret got me thinking anew about it all. It’s moment like this that I find so valuable about this blog. Thanks for that thought.
Jack
> Patrick,
> what you said about being surprised primal people don’t also ‘let it out’ in the same way, is something you should look at.
> it seems to point at a big misunderstanding you have about expressing your feelings in a straightforward and truthful way.
>
> you think the stage of ventilating anger is enough, but that is not the case if the anger always remains directed to substitute targets.
>
> if this is adressed with you, you evade the subject by starting about the validity of the matter you are angry about, which subject might indeed be a valid cause but still you escape the real matters you need to adress inside of you if ever you’d want to break through this cycle that does not lead anywhere, although you seem to think it is therapeutical.
>
> I am sure you really know this actually, but for some reason rather prefer to comfortably remain in the anger zone, which is what I
> refer to when saying you cultivate antagonism.
>
> looking at the sources, need for example, seems to painful probably.
> it is sad, we fear the feelings making them seem worse than they really are when finally we allow them.
>
> on occasion you do admit knowing there is some act out, but you never seem to do anything with it and mostly almost immediately shift back to ranting about whichever cause has your focus on that given moment.
>
> i wish you could find someone to help you through your fear of vulnerability and need and sadness, all those natural human feelings you classify under ‘weakness’ but that were all too real in childhood and need to get their proper attention or otherwise they keep haunting you around in pointless battles all your life.
>
> I suppose what I say won’t be heard or will be swiped off the table, but that is up to you.
> all I can do is make a honest effort of expressing my thoughts at this very moment.
>
> we primal people are not ranting because we don’t need to, and most of your insults do not hit target as they do not contain much reality in them at all.
> there is a Dutch saying that says ‘truth hurts’, well, the opposite can be true as well.
> not to deny unrightful accusations and insults can be extremely unpleasant if they keep going on, and nobody in his right mind chooses to hang around with someone treating them in an offensive way.
>
> I think you are smarter than really deluding yourself you are busy finding the truth, if you take a moment of reflexion, which seems hard for you as you mentioned getting carried away again easily even if those moments of insight start taking place.
>
> that’s all I can say, M
Margaret – what you say has some ‘truth’ in it of course. But I dunno I don’t feel like addressing it now. All I want to say is ‘feelings’ are not something that go ‘according to plan’ and you and many others in ‘primal’ are sort of always applying the primal grid. This is ‘good’ that is ‘bad’ this is ‘expressing’ a feeling, this is ‘acting out’ a feeling. Things are ‘praised’ and then things are found ‘wanting’. it goes on and on and primal philosopher here does it constantly not that in reality he does but just as a way to ‘find fault’ in especially me. It’s get’s tiring as it is for sure not genuine or truthful. At best it is an exercise in self delusion and self bolstering. Tiring, predictable year after year the SAME stories the SAME ideas. Dead – might as well be buried. I like to think I go where my fancy takes me I trust my fancy or my feeling if you want to use that word. Right now I am fascinated by the holocaust so called and all that it entails. I imagine others might too if they would let themselves. I was interested in vaccines in the spring I have kind of exhausted that now I feel I have discovered something………………..I take the point of what does this thing mean for anyone else, it doesn’t unless they find themselves interested too. If you prefer to sing primal mantras and run through ground that has been ploughed a 1000 times already be my guest but that’s not me. And Margaret I like to think you might have got something from the vaccine discussion I like to think you might not just let vets give you cats their shots over and over and end up with very sick cats. Of course you might not have taken any notice in which case I think it’s your loss. And people can talk about anything and every thing there are interested in well maybe except the holocaust it just if we are limited to the primal grid well to me that lifeless indeed.
Quote:- “But I dunno I don’t feel like addressing it now.” My guess is that you will now considered that you have now addressed it, and will NEVER never address it … as is your wont.
Jack
> Patrick, if you run into the same remarks over and over, I see it as a sign you are stuck in the same behaviour over and over..
> you say feelings don’t go according to plan, but in your case it is more a cause of letting your old feelings take over and direct your behaviour into a repetitive act out instead of taking time to focus on the feeling and working your way into it.
> nobody ever said there was no work involved in unraveling that old pain.
> it does take determination and courage and most of all honesty.
> and hey, you can think what you like about me and my cats and your influence.
> if anything it s tiresome it is your stubbornness to stick your head in the ground as to how you lead your own life and bother us with your struggle that can never really achieve anything as it is not even clear what you want from us.
> or did you want to become some kind of guru with a herd of meek followers believing and swallowing everything you come up with?
> not even you can really be serious about that.
> and please don’t give us the excuse me bullshit of fighting for righteous causes as I haven’t seen you do any of that in any factual and concrete way.
> even to the demonstration you once went to you went as an observer.
> so if you are fooling someone, it is only one person I am afraid.
> M
I realize now the way I find myself referring to Gretchen without even wanting to I am pissed at her………………..pissed at the gall and straightforward barefaced lying about the suicides. Things I know personally ONLY TOO WELL I am told ‘never happened’. Though PR man seems to have found an ‘out’ Gretchen was only talking about people who killed themselves in the actual building the the PI was in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. That’s a good one and a typical crazy PR move from PR man. What do you have to say about that Gretchen? Do you agree with PR man on this?
I am pretty sure everyone here kind of agree that Joop is ‘crazy’ for the stuff he says and it would not be my way of talking. But you know ‘crazy’ is sometimes crazily correct. He mentions the inability to tell the truth well what are we dealing with here? So if someone is pissing on my leg and telling me it’s raining well once I find that out would I trust them about say the holocaust so called that happened 70 years ago? NO I would not since I can’t trust them with stuff I KNOW first hand from very personal and painful experience. Meanwhile I will delve into and investigate what people I sort of do trust have to say……………and ignore all the pathetic attempts to ‘discredit’ him (like he charges for his book unlike PR man who since he can get no buyers might as well ‘abolish money’)
BTW ‘pissing on my leg and telling me it is raining’ could be the motto of Janov. I think that fits pretty much………….Welcome to this great new therapy where when someone who is pissing on your leg you will think it’s raining…………………..
i am alive. That’s it. I have too many bills and sadnesses that i can conveniently overwhelm myself with. Too much to say and type, but my fingers are numb from diabetes. At least i finally got meds and bloodsugar is down. Whatever. dying dogs and cats on morphine. It remains hotter in October than it really has a right to, and the a/c is also dying. Holidays coming again and the 2 adult kids are still estranged, and I defer trying to be a mediator because I will probably make things worse. Lady Z thinks I hate her but she is just trying new hormone regimen and acts like an arugmentative child, which she did acted like for the first 35 years of our marriage, and which I fooled myself into thinking that was the end of it. At least therapy got me to realizing that I wasn’t always the bad guy. If I can make it through the holiday weekend, I will be back at work where i can numb myself with meaningless distracting tasks. I will never be able to afford therapy again, which was often a source of camaraderie for me, even though I am too autistic to really embrace the human race.
Otto, hang in there. My dad use to say: if you find yourself at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on. Glad you have your sugar level straightened out. And good luck at work.
S
Are there not some sort of resources available to Otto beings he was a patient at the institute? Hard to watch someone suffer if there is a solution like buddying or other help.
Sylvia – you would think there would be wouldn’t you? And you probably would especially think that since you have never been to the PI. But Otto gives a lot of reality in his posts and the little I have seen of you here you seem to have ‘gotten over’ things a lot better than most ‘professional primallers’ including a lot of people here.I congratulate you whatever good instincts you had or maybe just circumstances that kept you away from ‘professional’ therapy. You seem all the better for it.
Sylvia, the onus to get healthy is on the person, whether to get a buddy or to get therapy. This blog is a resource that wasn’t available to Otto nor anyone else 6 years ago. I hope it is helpful to him. Sometimes to end one’s suffering difficult life choices need to be made, such as changing jobs, or directly addressing problems in a marriage, or committing to doing therapy and following through with it. Otherwise the person’s suffering goes on to the end of time and no one can really do much to alleviate it.
Otto, hats off to you for the strength you have to hang on through the drudgery and profound unhappiness you are in. Sandy.
> I robably should not go into this, but hey it is sunday afternoon and I feel like it.
> as far as all I have read about the crop circles, is they are made by people starting at a certain point, with wooden boards or something, working their way around in spirals etc.
> now it seems fairly easy but not very honest to steal the maths that lay at the base of say sunflowers seed positions or galaxies spiraling or any other spiral and then ‘apply’ it to the crop circles and pretend to have made a smart observation..
> boy, this is really starting to be ridiculous here, haha, funny really, specially as a means to prove that guy’s credibility..
> and no, I don’t need to read that book first, thanks, but maybe you can also find some books about ufo’s he wrote?
> deep down I dream of meeting one, really, not kidding, but well, I am smiling to be honest..
> but reading the book about cosmology and the numbers inthere would make it kind of a stupid assumption we would be the only living beings on this planet in that vast universe.
> so well, there is one fascinating subject for me, and haha, all those obductions by aliens, and the memories of laying on a hard table, strange creatures with huge eyes looking down on you and poking in you, well, sounds kind of primal doesn’t it?
> most of those were obducted while sleeping, sounds like some kind of primalish dream in some cases, who knows.
> I remember by coincidennce watching such a testimony together with some other fellow primalers, on tv.
> , and we al had the same reaction, the guy or was it a girl, was describing some kind of primal disconnected memory, felt very obvious.
> easy to wipe off the table, but well, to me it sounded like a high probability at least. higher than the obduction to a ufo for sure..
> but hey, outer space is also there and intriguing and fascinating.
> kind of a consolation as well, if we really mess up and ruin this planet, which i certainly hope not, although we are going towards it, there is plenty more where this came from as they would say on the far side or in the furry fabulous freak brothers. that was the general of the cockroaches reply every time a lieutenant reported to him how many batallions of roaches were stamped upon by fat Freddy or devoured by fat Freddy’s cat, smiley, oh well, plenty more where those came from! and finally the cockroaches secret superwweapon turned out to be fertility pills, haha!
> loved those comics!! .
> M
Margaret,I don’t think this guy Kollerstom’s ideas are worth at all looking into just from what I’ve beenhearing of them here. What also counts for me is who is making the recommendation.I’m more interested in ideas which have at least a little chance of being true.Phil Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:41:16 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Margaret – it seems you join the Amen Corner or the Choir in knocking Kollerstrom. What in the hell is wrong with applying maths from say galaxies to something else like crop circles. Maybe the people who made the crop circles had something like that in mind. Have you thought of that?. I have no idea but it is almost comical to see people falling all over each other to ‘destroy’ this guy. Now you come in the next thing you might start applying statistics to it. For fuck’s sake leave the guy alone he is interesting for sure to me, he is eccentric I would agree but thank God for ‘eccentric’ and I would take it any day over the kind of ‘reality’ Phil promotes and seem to believe in. It’s like anyone a bit ‘different’ with a bit of flair you can’t wait to shoot him down but of course not to forget the real agenda is he is a ‘holocaust doubter’ so all Hell in un-leashed on him. And Margaret you are just a Yes woman in this situation. I don’t like it.
> this might appear too late as Jack might hve replied already, but he did not say the actual building of the PI, I think he meant the actual PI as opposed to the former one before it split up.
> sloppy reading ?
Margaret here is the quote from Jack:
“My take on the 3 v 20 suicides. I feel that the three Gretchen was referring to were the 3 that took place at the Institute building”
Well what do you think he means? And if you actually want to know why don’t you ask HIM? Rather than making your weak tit-for-tat with me. Nothing sloppy in what I was doing I was just quoting him. Also you know he loves to ‘correct’ me well he did not correct me on that. I am ‘corrected’ on just about everything and do you think he would let that go? But whatever now you have the quote tell what do you think he means?
It was always the PI even so when it ‘split up’ it remained the PI but Janov got to do so called ‘training’ in reality a dodge to keep doing therapy. In any case Gretchen was there all along and it should be obvious what period I was referring to. But full marks for more ‘creativity’ in the explanations you and Jack come up with. It sound like something the Propoganda Ministry of Communism might come up with but hey you tried..
House MD.Season 3. Episode 12, 12 minutes in. I don’t know why this portion always gets me, about this rape victim, but I think it is a trust thing. She wants House, trusts him. She FEELS safe with him, even though he is a misanthrope.
Like frantically clutching at a life saver in the middle of a roiling stormy ocean, as the ship sinks in the distance.
You never know, after the storm there might be a pod of dolphins swimming by to scoot you onto shore.
I have almost finished the stunning to me at least book “The Myth of German Villany” and one thing is for sure there was a ‘holocaust’ all right on hundreds of German cities wiped out from the air with deliberate bombing of civilians. Dresden a town nothing to do with war it is estimated around 300,000 died mostly just burned to death. That is one of the more dramatic ones there were many more. Everyone knows about Nakasaki and Hiroshima which was really just more of the same the the ante upped with nukes
So all of this I see so different now……………..the Allied commuted horrific war crimes I guess they needed to conclusively shift the blame on that before the bodies were cold so to speak. And they have kept it up since. To the point it is ‘illegal’ pretty much to even think out loud about it. If anyone is truly interested they might read that book the author is Benton Bradberry. It has shown me so much I did not know before. In that way Kollerstrom is irrelevant he just caught my attention with his quirky style. Many other historians know the same and I would like to think it is able to come out a bit though I am not hopeful. This may already be getting me in trouble so maybe I should shut up. Hard for me though.
Quote: “maybe I should shut up. Hard for me though.” I would have though that was worth investigating … but I don’t think there is a book on the matter. So! investigating might rquire a new way of thinking … yeah??? but then could entail even more difficulty for you.
Jack
Wow how ‘deep’ is that? Most profound Philosopher Clown.
like Cody the dog with his eyes glued to the veterinarian, begging her to save his life.
Patrick, First of all I don’t think anyone said Joop was crazy did they? I’m not sure what made you say that but I think you should stick with how you feel about him., Actually I really appreciated his first response to what I wrote., Patrick you keep crying that you are censored- you have said how you feel, even as recently as your last post so what’s the problem? I’m not sure what you want., if you want this to be the main issue discussed here well, I think it’s unlikely and I tend to think as well that most people will not be agreeing with you. If you want either of those two things there are denier blogs and neo nazi blogs where you can spend days talking about this stuff to your hearts content. I’m not sure why you are so offended or outraged that I think Kollerstrom is a fool umless you just can’t handle someone having an opinion that is different than yours. Otherwise what difference does it make? You see it your way and I have my opinion. I do hope he’s right about alchemy however as we could all use a little gold about now! As for your discussion about suicide in Primal or any other therapy for that mater … I don’t owe you a discussion. Still, myself and many others on the blog did in fact indulge that discussion. More than once in fact. You now say you are the holder of the truth, everyone else is either lying or wrong. So what’s to discuss? Why not just say what you really want? You seem to feel you know something no one else on earth is smart enough to figure out. Whether it be about the Holocaust ,therapy ,vaccines, diet or any number of things you and only you know the truth. I have never met anyone so confident while being so wrong. Unfortunately I also don’t think you were entirely honest with the names you threw out on your post or for that matter in saying that these are people you were personally involved with , really Patrick? I do see you as a person in a lot of pain but your way of dealing with it just leaves no room for anyone else’s pain or opinions. At this point I feel I have to say what I see in fairness to the other members of the blog. Since the Internet is so much a part of most of our lives now there is of course language to address the things that are pretty exclusive to using the Internet or participating in blogs or forums. With that in mind you are feeling a bit like a troll Patrick. I just don’t think you really care that much about the issues you go on and on about, I really don’t. You can look it up in Urban Dictionary. Gretchen
OK Grechen – I will take a few points starting at the top. You are a twisting slick one! All I said is I THOUGHT people might find what Joop said a bit ‘crazy’ and I was saying hold on a minute I don’t think it actually is. Am I not saying how I feel? Jeez you are getting like Jack – anything to ‘win’ a point.;Is that a ‘primal’ thing or maybe dare we say it a “:Jewish” thing whatever maybe same difference in practice
OK I am not ‘censored’ or at least so far so I appreciate that as I keep saying you have been very good on that. It’s just you did signal that might be changing so anyway maybe it’s not. I don’t like your ‘lumping’ me with neo-Nazi white supremacist whatever. The same as you and others do to Kollerstrom he was a Green Party member a Leftist who opposed the Iraq War etc etc. Again an attempt to damn by association. Not an honest way of discussing things I would have expected more of you but maybe I over estimate you. In the end you use all the familiar ‘dirty tricks’. Kollerstorm and me are far from some so called neo-nazi whatever that is supposed to mean I am a ‘greenie’ if anything in politics but if I use my head and come to some different conclusions to the politically correct one well then dump me into some category of craziness and badness. I see your trickery there and I am not buying it.
So now having failed to tar Kollerstrom with saying he said we did not go to the moon (he thinks we did) and then then saying Saddam Hussein was still alive (he did not ever say that) then you implied something irrational and funky about ‘crop circles’ I looked into that to day (nothing you can tar with there – actually a quite nice and well regarded book) now you try another tack – alchemy. I just looked it up he is a chemist (that’s how he knows the ‘gas chambers’ were NOT used for killinf people they were used for de-lousing clothes etc AND he proves it. THAT must be hard for you to take and hard to ”forgive”), he is a chemist as as far as I can tell is playing around with chemicals in an interesting way. Alchemy might be considered crazy but it was the beginning of chemistry and actually in the nuclear age one element CAN be transmuted into another. So just another attempted cheap shot from you there. What will you try next…………..my God you ARE busy though trying to ‘discredit’ this guy. Give it a break I told you he was a bit eccentric I only wish we all were as ‘eccentric’ and as creative and as observant. This is a case of little minds trying to drag someone down. But it does prove Joop’s point ‘doubt’ the so called holocaust and people become dangerous in their minds!
About the suicides are you actually saying I am LYING about those people? That’s bullshit but again why would someone just accuse someone of ‘lying’ like that based on nothing…………(could it be because they ‘lie’ so easily themselves – yes) ask me ANYTHING about any of those names and I can and will fill in anything you want to know. That’s disgusting you would even try a rotten implication like that. Go on ask me about any of them, ask me how I knew or how well I know Peter Crummy, Eleanor, Greg, Moira, Marina, Lynn Johnson Peter (Swedish) ANY of them. I will not let you slip and slide here Gretchen. That’s a bunch of crap. You have already dug yourself a hole about there being only 3………………first rule if you want to get out of a hole is stop digging!………..and if you really want to get out start being honest about it.
I would not say I am a ‘troll’ I am someone who has spent a lifetime associated with primal and I do not like certain things about it and I am speaking up about it. That simple and I do appreciate the space.To me ‘primal’ has been sort of ‘hijacked’ by what?……………..Joop might say by “Jews” I would not put it exactly like that but by a “Jewish” spirit yes I would go that far…………..
The first and foremost aspect about this last post of yours is it’s length. I am certain that everyone on the blog will see it as a MAJOR DEFENSIVE ACT. If indeed you still think this is an expression of your feeling I suggest RE-READING “The Primal Scream” I feel and I suspect others also feel YOU ARE THE ONE TWISTING FACTS OUT OF SHAPE to suit your Argument. As I see it it’s not flying by whomever ones logic you purport to support.
first quote:- ” I don’t like your ‘lumping’ me with neo-Nazi white supremacist whatever” Seems strange since you’ve spent a great deal of your time recently on this blog supporting the Nazi regime neo Nazis and white supremacists ideology … leastways for gassing people … only lice infested clothing. So does this not suggest that there is some deeper feeling within you that the Nazis were indeed vicious??????? You have also in the past here on this blog been upset at being associated with Anti-semites. Why the upsetness??? from your recent posts you seem to agree with most of these people.
Second quote:- “The same as you and others do to Kollerstrom ” If indeed you quite like the guy, why are you so, so upset that others call him bad names by your reckoning. If you like him Ok leave it at that. Does it matter what others think or say of him????
third quote:- ” ‘gas chambers’ were NOT used for killin[f]g people they were used for de-lousing clothes etc AND he proves it. THAT must be hard for you to take and hard to ”forgive”), ” Can’t you permit Gretchen to have her own opinion on the matter?? What’s with you trying to prove her opinion invalid?????
fourth quote:- “my God you ARE busy though trying to ‘discredit’ this guy. Give it a break ” I suggest you take your own advice here, and give this whole ‘RANT’ of yours a break. Seems you are so, so preoccupied to prove your point. My take,.for what it’s worth, is you are not succeeding.
Fifth quote:- “About the suicides are you actually saying I am LYING about those people? ” My take:- NO … just that you are twisting the situation to suggest that the Primal Institute and by inference Primal Therapy was responsible for their suicidal tendency and ultimate outcome. Taking little account of my suggestion that these people arrived at the Institute door with their suicidal tendency. You seemingly ONLY WANT TO BLAME it seems the Institute for their deaths. There are institutions out there, who put on great efforts to prevent suicides from happening and for the most part fail. It’s a complex situation for any organization, however sincere and devoted, to resolve the suicide from making that final decision.
Sixth quote:- “I would not say I am a ‘troll’ ” BUT that should not deprive others from feeling that you are. For someone that has spend a great deal of time and effort in designating me with a great many things … it seems somewhat hypocritical of that same person when someone else designates from their perspective; what they see you as. Accept that is their feeling about you. You saying you are not; proves nothing … rather in-effect actually re-enforces the notion.
In the end I am sure you’ll have some name to call me. I will put it down to your “spin” and leave it at that.
Jack
People are killing themselves all over the place. I’d expect in a therapy that deals with very troubled people, there’d be a higher incidence of suicides than there is in the average population, sadly and tragically. I’d also expect many have been saved from suicide by the therapy. I’ve read some of them say so in the primal literature.
In your mind, what is a “Jewish” spirit? Personally I don’t think there is such a thing, based on the people that I know, any more than there is a Ukranian, Chinese, British,. American, Spanish or Aboriginal spirit. I would say there are norms of behaviour and outlook imbued in people by the culture and religion they grew up with. A chinese person born and raised in China will have a different behaviour set and outlook than a chinese person born and raised in Canada. On the radio I’ve heard adults who grew up in Canada as children of immigrants, talk about the differences between themselves and their parents who grew up in a different country and culture.
More than anything else, your thinking seems to be driven by anger and fear which you are unwilling to explore. I can’t take your criticisms of Primal Therapy seriously when you’ve not attempted the therapy. The few times you’ve been in group and I’ve been in the same group with you I heard you refuse to do it. It seems to me you want a version of Primal Therapy that bypasses the pain, an oxymoron.
Through all your years writing essentially the same thing over and over on the blog what I see is that you are driven by pain that you refuse to deal with and you blame the therapy for it. I feel sad when I think that the attention you get on the blog is the only thing you’re able to let yourself get from the therapy.
Larry – and you not ‘essentially saying the same thing over and over?’ I am always stuck by how ‘samey’ you are…………….
Larry: Wow! You put me to shame. I thought that was a very balanced approach and response to Patrick. By the way when I turned of the lights last night there was no glow except an inner glow, but then I always loved myself..
Gretchen: I love the sunshine and clear blue skies, but I agree this relentless heat has gotten the better of both of us. Chest pains? I’m not sure, at this stage of life there are bits of pains all over … nothing to go to see a doctor about as I see it … but my Jimbo believes in all that medical stuff; after all it was his livelihood for most of his working life.
My relating the story was meant to add a bit of fun to the blog. Seems it did not achieve that except to me.
Patrick: I think Hitler made his intentions quite clear in his book “Mien Kampf” and in any event why did he round up Jews and others and cart them off to concentration camps???? I doubt it was for the purpose of delousing them. Many that were interned lived to tell their tale. All wars are an atrocity as far as I’m concerned I just feel you have become a sad loser. 😦 😦 .
Jack
Jack I much enjoyed your story. It was brilliantly written, entertaining, and informed us what is going on with your health. Thank you for it.
PS. Never give up that inner glow.
Larry does not put you to shame you shame yourself and everyday at least every day I put something on here. You are so ‘resolved’ yet you cannot seem to help yourself bagging on every chance you get or even don’t get. Compulsive and driven……………………and driven to be just a objectionable asshole. Come to think of you are a ‘troll’ to me and all the time. You may have the majority on your side…………….means nothing to me I think I can handle a ‘mob’
Patrick you’ve not answered my question.
I’ve got to know you through the blog, from when you first came on it many years ago, and from the one or two retreats and post-groups you’ve been to and I was at with you. In all that time what I’ve seen is your refusal to do the therapy and your expression of your refusal. From what you’ve said and written you’ve made it apparent to me that you don’t even grasp how the therapy works.
For most of us, because we live away from the primal community and in person groups and session, this blog is, or was, the next best opportunity for us to support and help each other to explore and understand our behaviour, even when it sometimes lead to uncomfortable difficult interaction. This blog is free therapy for anyone. It’s an incredible, generous resource. The therapeutic vibe is it’s heart, without which this blog would fizzle out.
But all you do is act out here. It’s not healthy for you, nor helpful that we condone it. In my mind I stopped condoning it a year or two ago. I no longer read your comments because they rarely say anything meaningful, nor do I react to you because your thinking is mostly without logical informative form or substance but is mostly propelled your pain which you never attempt to address. It is mainly attention that you seek and the only way you’ve found to reliably get it is through provoking people. You are addicted to being provocative. The addiction is not good for you, nor is it good for you that we enable it.
You avoid most attempts at discourse to try to get to know and understand you. Typically, you’ve not replied to my asking you to explain what you mean by your term, “a Jewish spirit”.
I’ve arrived at the feeling that by our reacting to your provocations on the blog we are enabling you to perpetuate the unhealthy act out you use to get attention. I feel that for your own good you should be banned from the blog, until and in the hope that you will at some point attempt a healthier way of relating to people and of cultivating the human connection we all need.
Well you have it all ‘explained’ to your own satisfaction Father Larry, or Brother Larry or Pastor Larry. That’s fine but you way in not my way never has never will be. I am very different to you which actually is ok we are all individuals aren’t we?
Sylvia, yes there are! Gretchen
Some days ago my Jimbo, pursuaded me to book and appointmet with my cardiologist since on getting out of bed at 6:30 am each morning and getting washed and dressed I did feel some minor chest pain. Jim, being a medical imaging tech, panicked a little thinking I might be on the way out. I didn’t think so as of yet; but demured to his better knowledge on medical matters.
An appointment was set up and the cardiologist: using her stethoscope did hear some rumblings going on inside the chest cavity, but could not be sure what was the cause … so she set me up for a nuclear stress test and another echo cardiogram. One or both of these would (presumably) decide if I had a heart or not as I had informed the cardiologist that there are some out there who were totally convimced I did not have one. She conceded that the stethescope was not a reliable indicator which I could take back to my fellow detractors.
Friday I duely attended the nuclear medical imaging facility and was made radio active. Had I exploded at this moment I might have blown away half of West LA. Then after a requisit wait was put under a imaging tomography scanner that sliced and diced my chest region to see if there was something relating to an organ that might meet the specicatioons of a beating thing. That afternoon I was asked to go in the following morning (yesterday) to be made radio active again, but this time without stress bearing medication. Supposedly this time to see if the slicing of that piece of meat looked like a heart.
Yesterday afternoon the caridoilgist rang me to say yes that it looked like a heart and was sort of normal. (whatever normal is susposed to mean) So!!! to all my detractors I am duely informing you that It seems I am sort of human … in some maybe remote sort of way.
Jack
Good to know, Jack, though I never doubted it. Do you glow in the dark now, too. 🙂
Larry: not sure, but now you mention it as soon as I turn of the lights off, I’ll see if there is something glowing in the dark. I suspicious that I’m still radio active, and I’ll let you know … so you can keep your distance. According to my Jimbo the half life of the stuff is supposed to be 12 hours.
Not sure what my half life is supposed to be but, suspect I’ve past the half way mark. boo hoo 😦 😦
Jack
Jack, I’m glad to hear your ticker is still kicking.
Sandy
Sandy: Well it seems that piece of meat inside the chest cavity that got sliced and diced; ticks on relentlessly. Whether tis a heart or some other organ playing some hymn in there is questionable … by some. Whatever!! Thanks for your recognition that I’m still kicking. I gather from my mother’s account that I was quite a kicker at even that stage of development inside her.
Jack.
Jack, So what do they think caused the chest pains? Personally I don’t think this relentless heat is helping anyone. I suddenly felt sick tonight and now I think it was dehydration. We all have to be careful to drink extra water right now! G.
Patrick, I will only comment on your last couple of sentences as I really think they are the most revealing of all. Your distain and contempt for Jews in this case would make it impossible for you to objectively study the history of pretty much anything really. I know that is impossible for you to grasp at this point. This is really ugly stuff if you ask me. Really ugly. G.
…………….and that is really opportunistic and clever ‘spinning’ by you Gretchen not that I expect that to be ‘understood’ here. Mind you it’s no different than what goes on in ‘regular’ society a lot of the time. So congratulations once again you have shown yourself (PI) as being utterly ‘conventional’ and to represent no real ‘alternative’ to anything. No ‘free thinking’ there much and the ‘state’ of a lot of your patients is reflected in that……………..
Scroll scroll scroll. I was getting exasperated having to scroll scroll through people struggling with the provoking antagonism talk. And I’m thinking “why do people spend all his time struggling with it?” Well, actually I do know. I spent hours and years trying to struggle with my Dad’s crazy talk. Them French or those Americans or the Irish, women of any descent, Muslims was his most recent. His favourite hate group were Aboriginals. He even hated South Africans. That one confused me because they had Apartheid- I thought he’d’ve loved them for that. Blah blah blah. I just want to shout at my computer screen ” give it up! You can’t reason with madness!”. OK so it’s teen Sandy I’m shouting at. Back to the future now…
For all I know you’re all saying brilliant things but I don’t read it because I scroll and scroll and scroll looking to relate. Then I walk away for weeks, come back to see if there is any change…scroll scroll scroll…nope. I’m ready to give up but I can’t. I live alone and I cancelled my pain killer…er…cable tv. I need you guys! All kidding aside it boils down to this: this blog is monopolized with it and that’s ok. Clearly the majority of blog members like and are engaged with this talk. Controversy works well to draw out a lot of people- I get that. But I can’t relate or engage with it so I don’t belong on his blog. Did somebody mention that there are other Primal blogs? If any of you know of these can you please let me know? Sandy.
Sandy,There is another primal forum, the Primal Support Group (PSG), a Yahoo group.If you send me an email at phiban@msn.com I will send you a link to join.But I am hoping the controversy will calm down here. I think what you say is true, that provocative and antagonistic messages doprovoke discussion. But I think the majority of members wish it would stop.I have to say I find it difficult to talk about what goes on with me as I’mafraid I won’t be understood. It’s easier for me to jump into this kind of debate.In my family we would mainly talk about irreverent stuff like politics,foreign affairs, history, and anything else but what was going on with us. Also, I’m triggered by people who seem to be rigidly stuck with their ideasand attitudes, so I can relate to what you say about your father.Phil
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:54:14 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Wow! That’s the most you’ve ever written here. Good for you!
> hi Phil, before I read the rest of this mornings 24 comments, I was joking, you would not think I’d be interested in reading any of Collarstrongs work do you??
> but hey, I am interested in news like now the water on Mars and all it may imply, find that fascinating..
> not that I would ever turn to Collarstrong for finding out stuff..
> M
Kollerstrom is his name……………at least try to get that right if nothing else.
> next comment, 25 to go now as they seem to be coming in faster than I can read and reply.
> now htis is really geting hilarious, I should stay out of the big guys stuff as I am well, ‘just a woman’? hahahaha!
> M
Margaret: Very funny … I laughed out loud … so much so Jimbo wanted to know what was so funny..
Jack
Yeah that’s SO funny right I guess if you are full of hate and spite (towards me) just about ANYTHING might be funny………………
I don’t hate you … I just love poking you … it’s such fun for me. I sure don’t want you banned, that’d deprive me of so much fun.
On second thoughts … what would YOU have me do towards you? Your prior suggestion has been:- “leave me alone”
I find that hard since you are forever in this nick of the woods spreading your ******** around. You are difficult for me to ignore.
Jack
> could someone please do me the favour to copypaste here the difinition of the urban dictionary for the use of ‘troll’?
> I can imagine some options but am curious to hear the exact definition, and don’t feel able to track it down with my screenreader..
> just a woman, haha, am still chuckling about that, hi Sandy and Sylvia and Gretchen, my fellow just women, hahaha, htis was more saying than anything to me really, talk about a primitive mindset!
> M
Margaret here is the top definition I found for troll in the urban dictionary:One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument. Phil Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:10:54 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Buahh haa haa good one, Phil! Good one!
Sandy.
I don’t particularly think it is such a ‘good one’ at least as applied to me. Of course now that Gretchen has used it it might seem like great fun to bag on me and she gives the message that is ok which I can ‘understand’ since she totally failed to ‘explain’ herself. Now she turns me over to the mob. I can handle that I hope.
Put it this way if I go on Dr Kruse’s blog and go on about primal therapy, and give him books which he reads and mention it at meeting does he consider me a ‘troll’ He doesn’t because he has an open mind and is smart. Here if I put forward something a bit different I am called a ‘troll’ which I also ‘understand’ since primal as now constituted is basically a kind of degenerated religious ‘sect’ where they see anything ‘different’ as a threat which even goes back to a “Jewish” spirit………………the spirit of feeling persecution and fear of annihilation. That might be a bit of a leap buy hey it’s what occurs to me.This ‘spirit’ finds many forms so there Larry that is a little bit I don’t feel like sitting down and answering you the way YOU want me to answer
All of this crap I talk about did not just happen in ‘history’ it is very much alive right now today. That is the only reason I got interested in ‘history’ how can this kind of behavior be explained. And actually history is somewhat useful especially in one is lucky to read books that are not propoganda
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/12/us-caught-faking-it-in-syria/
If life is a zero-sum game where one person makes money only because another person loses or spends money, does this mean that hugely successful people are simply gigantic parasites on society on a certain level?
A quick example would be Wal-Mart, where many tens of thousands of Main Street businesses were closed down as a byproduct of the company’s success, so the parasitic side of it would be the ruination of many small mom-and-pop businesses.
Or, when I see a giant Powerball winner on a billboard. Oh, look! Joan G. of Whatchamacallit, Michigan just won $200 million! Does that big billboard point out the 150 million people who bought a $2 ticket and lost?
Or how about Dell computers? Their key to success in the beginning was making clones of IBM computers with cheaper parts. Saves the customer money, but drove a lot of IBM retailers out of business, shrinking their families and kids budgets that much further in the process.
Any thoughts? Are successful people really just a hidden breed of parasite on the common man on a certain level that’s not well understood or appreciated by society?
UG, we don’t all have the same skill sets and abilities. We try to focus our energies and talents on what we do best. We barter and trade the goods and services we produce through our talents for what we want that other people provide. We agree on the rules of trade or we don’t enter into the trade if we can help it. If trade between two parties is fair and to mutual benefit, everyone is successful. If trade is forced upon one party to the much greater advantage of the other, then maybe that is an example of a stronger party parasitising a weaker one.
According to the book “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”, the US propped up dictatorships in weak but resource rich third world countries in order to get their resources cheap. If the accounts in the book are true, then in a sense the US is a successful parasite. So is Canada in how it invaded and successfully forced the aboriginals to trade away their claim to all of their land.
Just responding with my opinion because I like you and I have some time today. But I don’t see how this goes anywhere.
Larry:
I just want to respond to one sentence you wrote; everything else sounded reasonable:
If trade between two parties is fair and to mutual benefit, everyone is successful.
What if one of the parties doesn’t know all of the particulars of a trade, where something may appear beneficial in the immediate term, but has a severe cost over the longer term to one of the parties involved? If I had more time to think about this, I could come up with some good examples….
But…here’s a more important part….What if the trade is a mutual benefit to two parties, but is harmful to a third party, and that third party is helpless to do anything about it? Example being Wal-Mart or Dell again. Sure, the company makes a profit and the customer gets a cheap product, but the third party is the small mom-and-pop retailer that loses business and suffers a lower quality of life without the power to change the situation (indirectly there feels like some “forceful parasitism” is being done here only to outsiders).
The above is an excellent example of “negative externality”.
Yes, this is just coffee shop chat…but I do have unresolved….errr….”feelings” to work with here as well, I guess.
My gut says the parasitism definition for me is broader than your own, Larry,
A brief primer on “negative externality” : http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/negative-externality.php
UG, I think the third party has to find someone else to exchange their product/service with, or has to provide a more desired product/service to either of the first two, or doesn’t trade at all if their product/service isn’t wanted by anyone.
Well an acceptable definition of a parasite would be someone who makes life more difficult for others, wouldn’t it?
Make life more difficult for others in pursuit of your own gain, I meant…
Then you and I are parasites because at the expense of the people who lived here first in pursuit of our own gain we make our living on land our ancestors literally forced from them.
If you’re referring to the Native Americans and Inuits, that entails a separate discussion all its own. There are many gradations of parasitism. Is a billionaire on this land more of a parasite than “Average Middle Class Joe” on this land? (due to what I discussed above)
Interesting talks, Larry, at least for me. I do think it brings up valuable potential insight as to who is really doing what to whom. I could talk and talk much more about this stuff, but…alas…my limited brain cells need a good glial washing out for now. Adios.
Larry & Guru: My suggestion (which I will refrain from repeating; with difficulty) would circumvent all those alternative you both propose.
I do grant that it would take a “conceptual leap” something most are not prepared to contemplate for more than two seconds. They are not actually my idea (I’m not that bright … for all my glowing), but when these ideas are proposed, there are a million respondents claiming it’s crazy. From whence they conjecture the craziness is NEVER discussed.
Ah well !!!
Jack
Larry brought up the North American indigenous peoples’ land being taken away from them by us, the European descendants. I don’t know if these population numbers are accurate, yet they are the best I can muster: 60 million people lived in Europe during Columbus’ time (density of 30 people per square mile) and …more uncertainly…8 million Natives lived in America around 1492 (density of only 2.5 people per square mile).
At the time this means Europe had a population density roughly 12 times as tightly packed as Native America in the 1490’s. Now obviously I am against the idea of genocide of the Natives, yet I wonder if the Europeans were simply following a natural instinct in search of more living space?
As a more abstract conception: If I had a big plot of land of 1,000 square miles with only 2,500 people on it (2.5 people per square mile like the Natives), and my neighbors had the same sized plot of land with 30,000 people on it (30 people per square mile like the Europeans), wouldn’t there be a huge disparity in “breathing and roaming space” for these two populations?
Sure, I could get pissed off at my neighbors with 30,000 European people making more room for themselves coming onto my land. I could legitimately say they are parasites feeding off “my” Native natural beautiful land, but couldn’t I also be considered a parasite for harboring the idea that my European neighbors should be tightly squeezed on their plot of land to begin with while I enjoyed spread-out Native open spaces?
I think you can always find a way to define parasite in a way that suits your intended purpose.
*pained, deeply melacholic sigh* Yeah….the brain certainly is an exquisitely complicated and selfish organ, isn’t it?
typo correction: melancholic
> Sandy,
> you are absolutely right!
> it sounds like most of us are now running out of patience.
> I have once before tried putting up a vote to get him off the blog, and immediatly vote him off again, even for a few months would be a relief, if that can make you stay here.
> even regardless of your precious presence I am still fed up really with how things keep getting out of hand and the blog is indeed invaded by craziness and there is hardly any room anymore because of all the verbal diarrhea.
>
> we have all tried to reason, and I think it is indeed time now to put some boundaries as that seems to be what Patrick is searching for, how far he can go, stretching and stretching and stretching and I think we have a full right now to say it is enough.
> my vote is there in any case, with a clear conscience as it has nothing to do with censorship really. mental hygiene and common sense and respect and regard for the vast majority of the group members.
> not necessarily a forever ban, but some boundaries, an even lighter version of the rules of the other blog. in fact, and those rules seem fine to me as well really.
> M
Margaret,
In response to what you said “even for a few months would be a relief, if that can make you stay here.” If one was to be voted off for the collective’s sake I would agree, but certainly not just for the sake of keeping me here. Thanks for calling my presence precious however, I know I’m not the only that goes away on account of the toxicity that Patrick brings here. Which is too bad because the more people participating, the more diverse the input, the more there is for everyone to relate to in their own way…at least that’s my theory for today.
Sandy.
Oh your’s so p-p-precious……………I did say when I put up that Kollerstrom video I would probably (be made to) ‘regret’ it. Do I regret it I suppose so in a way but like the man himself said for all the fuss and all the upset nobody has commented on the ‘reality’ of what he has said much at all. Gretchen set the tone on that one with the ‘moron’ and ‘imbecile’ remarks and then of course people feel fine falling all over themselves crapping on me (and him)…………….not such a spectacular sight. Also if everyone wants to be so ‘clean’ and nicey nicey well we have had that I don’t think much inspires anyone either. We can swap x/o’s until we are all so tired and ‘support’ each other in that kind of lifeless way. Also Margaret you seem to take the lead in this ‘banning’ business I still feel you made such a big issue about me questioning the way you dealt with your cat. Well it was just my opinion and I don’t see how you could think your cat was in any sense ‘well’ but you don’t want to learn anything it seems, same now with the ‘holocaust’ business. I mean I let you go on and on about your Mom and your cats etc etc.I certainly would never ask to ‘ban’ you I guess I am just not sure where you get all that ‘moral high ground;.People also have the option to ‘ignore’ me well some of them do………….by the way ‘precious’ was never praise the way I see it precious to me means so fragile and vulnerable but mostly as a way not to engage in life……………
Quote: “when I put up that Kollerstrom video I would probably (be made to) ‘regret’ it. Do I regret it I suppose so in a way” It’s the assumption that you regret it BUT ‘only in a way” Another of those escape clauses, you seemingly need (in your head), to refrain from any doubt you are highly neurotic. No surprise there since You are all hell bent on NOT doing Primal Therapy … because, I assume, you think you are smart enough to devise your own.
Another quote:- ” nobody has commented on the ‘reality’ of what he has said ” Gretchen has wrote quite a lot about him/it but I am certain she does not see it as “Reality” Only you designate it that way. Yet going back to what I feel was your preamble to this whole Kollerstrom thing, was about questioning preconceived notions. My take, to re-quote you “What if so much of what we have been told is not true………………..?” Is there any possibility in your head that K’s notions are not true OR is it in the realms of your definition of REALITY absolute and irrefutable ‘TRUTH’??????? My question, without my conclusion, was to ask why were Jews and others rounded up and put in concentration camps???? Just for delousing? Could that have not been done in their own homes? If indeed, that was the sole purpose. According to Mein Kampf he wasted to ship Jews and most others off to Madagascar … but that was in his original version. written whilst in prison.
Yet another quote: “falling all over themselves crapping on me (and him)…………….” Isn’t ‘Crapping’ meant as defecation????? Poor, poor Patrick … you must have to spend so much time getting all that shit off your clthes and body .. and the smell of it all to boot.
Just for the record; I for one am waiting for you to respond to Gretchen question:- Why you are on this blog at all. I know why you came on it in the first place. It was to do unto me what you now seemingly disdain others doing to you … your words “crapping all over ………”
Ah well!!!! enough fun for me for now.
Jack
> Jack, yes, funny indeed, but at the same time incredible Patrick writes stuff like that.
> with all this fuming some of the wires up there must really be melting.
> time for a cooldown before it becomes a meltdown.
> M
Margaret: Yep! really very funny … Patrick well dunno; but suspect the pokes are getting to him. Sadly from that solo operating left lobe of his it’s beginning to get over bearing for him I gather. You never know he could explode into a full blown Primal, then he’ll get what it all should have meant to him in the first place.
But I’m not betting on it. Worked for and with him too long, to put money on it.
Jack
Well your’e the one yesterday who found all this so ‘funny’ and the funny thing is it was based on a mis-understanding by Margaret. So what was so funny? Of course you do not know or care so long as it seems to be against me it is ‘funny’ to you. Talk about compulsive and stupid. All this crap about the left lobe etc……………..well let’s face it you haven’t a clue much of what you are talking about. Just some lame way to bolster your ‘religion’
So what WAS so ‘funny’ to you yesterday, you laughed so hard (you said) other people noticed you and it was about me saying ‘only a woman’. You would not have read that because I never said it but you still found what she said so ‘funny’. Do you remember or do you care………………like a lot of primallers ‘truth’ is not that important to you I have noticed (and this DOES start from the top – Janov to me made his career out of ‘lying’ and he is still at it)…………….so please tell us or me what you found SO funny.
> this morning it is me feeling a bit like Sandy I guess..
> for me it is scroll scroll delete as iI get the comments by mail, and I must admit I started feeling a rising frustration working through the comments and hoping at least one person would react on what first tickled me but what also really indignified me as I have a sense it was not a joke, when Patrick told me to stay out of the discussion as well, I was just a woman..
>
> nobody seemed to notice or mind or maybe they just passed it by for being too outrageous to react on, but well, it is like the worst kind of racism in the style of woman is the nigger of the world, lying at the base of so much injustice and suppression.
> with Patrick it is merely a mindset I guess, accidentallly or purposedly seeping out, but anyway, it fits in to a deep old feeling of mine, actually the first one that ever broke through to the surface.
>
> as a child I was constantly ‘corrected’ by my dad, who disapproved of me doing ‘boy’ stuff like clinbing trees etc.
> it was specially the despising tone of his voice talking about me, mostly not to me that hurt me.
> and now again crazy P criticizes me and ‘corrects’ me for being ‘just a woman’, in those terms, so I should stay out of it!
> you conceited full of yourself thick as a brick … , to be filled in as I don’t want to lower myself too to using childish names and insults. so I deleted the word ‘crazy’ from the list, as I don’t think you are, but mean the rest.
>
> I hope more women speak up here, I need some female sanity and feeling talk here, feels a bit cold and lonely somehow, otherwise.
> and again the dust seems to settle and he got away with spreading insults and toxic waste, ready for another load soon?
> I ccan only repeat, I want him gone for a while and let the normal conversation restore itself, as this blog is indeed losing its therapeutic quality to some degree otherwise, with this ogre around.
> like Phil, i agree it is not inviting to talk about sensitive stuff, not only because of the vile comments that might come, but also ba
> ecause there is simply no room for much attention and empathy as unless it is really serious stuff like disease or someone passing away, comments get snowed under or worse by the verbal diarrhea of some..
> just a woman.
Margaret,I didn’t notice the comment you are talking about and will have to goback and look for it. It does sound offensive and outrageous. Phil
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:27:17 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Phil, if I were you I would not bother to look it up, as it is just a passing sneer somewhere deep down into a long rant of Patrick.
> he mainly talks about other stuff and than casually sneers at me, saying I should stay out of this as well, I am a woman..
> I thought it might remain unnoticed by many as I guess most of us by now,, if we look at them at all, read Patricks or Badtricks comments in a diagonal way.
> it is outrageous in its craziness indeed, that is why I did want to pull some attention on it, as it is so basically demeaning and kind of says it all..
> M
Margaret – I was mystified yesterday what you were going on about and how seemingly I said you ‘were just a woman’. I never said any such thing and I know I would not that is not the way I think. I would say it would be impossible for me say something like that.
I think I know though what you are referring to. Here in the entry by me
Margaret – it seems you join the Amen Corner or the Choir in knocking Kollerstrom. What in the hell is wrong with applying maths from say galaxies to something else like crop circles. Maybe the people who made the crop circles had something like that in mind. Have you thought of that?. I have no idea but it is almost comical to see people falling all over each other to ‘destroy’ this guy. Now you come in the next thing you might start applying statistics to it. For fuck’s sake leave the guy alone he is interesting for sure to me, he is eccentric I would agree but thank God for ‘eccentric’ and I would take it any day over the kind of ‘reality’ Phil promotes and seem to believe in. It’s like anyone a bit ‘different’ with a bit of flair you can’t wait to shoot him down but of course not to forget the real agenda is he is a ‘holocaust doubter’ so all Hell in un-leashed on him. And Margaret you are just a Yes woman in this situation. I don’t like it.
I actually called you a “Yes woman” out of ‘respect’ in you care to think about it. I was about to call you a “Yes man” as that is a common way to say things in English. Do you know that phrase/way of talking?. But I thought out of respect to Margaret lets call her a Yes woman and not a Yes man. Just like nowadays they don’t talk about ‘chairman’ they say often ‘chairperson’ or ‘chairwoman’
So you quite misunderstood what was going on there Margaret…………….you will have to search and find a better reason to ban me. And really I don’t think talking about books and history with an open mind is enough. Gretchen can do what she wants of course..
Also Margaret you might find me objectionable but I have noticed often when I am gone and I do sometimes even for a few weeks well let’s put it this way there is not a lot going on at least as I see it. And you should actually thank me for giving you some very good information that might allow you to have a cat with at least reasonable health unlike what you actually did with the one that died.
Margaret – actually to be strictly correct about it the one you put to death.
You can’t feel good making a comment like that
Well it is true afterwards I thought that WAS mean. But as explanation Margaret tried to ban me before and was real serious about it and the way I remember it it was mostly all because I questioned the way she dealt with her cat. And actually I can ‘thank’ her too in that it was this combination of very bad cat health (creams, suits and lot of ‘shots’) made me wonder……………….around the same time I happened to hear Janine Roberts explaining how bad and dangerous vaccines were and that began me reading and thinking about all this more.
Of course I COULD be ‘wrong’ but I doubt it very much. Gretchen says she never met someone who was so sure of himself and so ‘wrong’ at the same time. I am not ‘sure’ of myself of course I could be wrong but yes I doubt it very much. But I taky your point whomever you are but that was the context. She tried to me ‘banned’ before she was the first one to come up with it and here she goes again and again IMHO she got the wrong end of the stick.
Quote:- “Of course I COULD be ‘wrong’ but I doubt it very much” Why is it so fucking difficult for you to just say “I could be wrong” and leave it that, rather than add “but I doubt it very much” It is the second part of this, the phrase, you doubting, that seemingly, NEGATES THE FIRST PHRASE WITH THE SECOND. I suspect that is why Gretchen says:- “I have never met someone who was so sure of himself and so ‘wrong’ at the same time.”
My take is that your “doubting” the first phrase makes it irrelevant. You’re so fucking sure you ARE RIGHT. Where does that fucking assurity come from????? I suspect no other than your ego. If I am correct, then you are such a fucking EGOTIST, it is littLe wonder everyone, seemingly, finds you so detestable. Give that a little thought, in-spite of it coming from me.
I suspect if you chose to respond that you’ll take me up on ” If I am correct,”
Jack
What WAS so ‘funny’?????????????????
quote:- “What WAS so ‘funny’?????????????????” Since you ask; Margaret’s comment:- “now this is really getting hilarious, I should stay out of the big guys stuff as I am well, ‘just a woman’? hahahaha!”
Specifically the phrase:- “I should stay out of the big guys stuff”
Since I am guy (I have always assumed) and maybe I’m considered one of the “big guys” I felt it was a female doing a put down (humorously) about males. Nothing, from my perspective concerning matters about you.
Hope that satisfies your curiosity.
Jack
Thanks that explains it. Cool.
> ok that saves looking it up. it is easily explained that listening to my screenreader it sounded like a, yes, ..woman..
> but hey, out of respect huh, calling me a yes woman?
> and that is not the reason anyway I’d like you to be out of here for a while, nor are the books you promote.
> it is the spirit that drives you to refer again to me killing my cat just as a means to hurt me as much as you can.
> you might look up a recent severe outbreak of polio among if I am right a group of Pakistani families who refused to give te polio vaccine to their children..
> not the subject in this matter here but sad enough is they started refusing it as for a while the CIA used prevention work with vaccination as a cover to look for Ben Laden there.
>
> and well, I think you are the very only one feeling the blog did hardly survive your precious absence, most of us if not all see it completely differently.
>
> it might even be good for you as your mind seems in overdrive as to lose the pedals somehow lately, a bit too often to my personal taste, which is all i can express here.
> I am fed up with all that craziness, and long for the comments of all those staying away right now, and for some meaningful and more personal subjects to be addressed here again, as there is little space for that now between all the spit and toxic waste.
>
> I wonder if all that rage was triggered by the rejection of that one person who represented all your hopes and fantasies for you?
> in that case, and even if that is not the case, a break might still be useful is my honest opinion.
> M
Hi Margaret. I wish for more comments from feeling people too, like Leslie, Vicky, Tom etc. Even Phil, though he still contributes, has said he feels inhibited. I too feel like my mom is in the room about to criticize everything I’m about to say and deny my feelings. This is a group to explore our old hurts and we want to feel safe and heard to do so.
When Patrick has gone from the blog for a while I think–good he has decided to enter therapy and continue with feeling. But no, just wishful thinking.
I know that in group such behavior would not be tolerated and seen as undermining to the purpose of therapy. Those paying for therapy would not put up with it for a second.
Sylvia – how do you ‘know’ any such thing. You have said you have never been to the PI. And this is not group and people are not paying for it. Jeez Louise…………so much cant around here. And please no need to anyone say they are ‘afraid’ as they often would in group it’s only words on a screen. Anyone can say anything they want or like………………..Sylvia I expected more of you because you never actually was in the ‘sect’………….
Patrick, when I first started reading about this group on the blog I thought you were a good contributor finding your way. I thought each were helping each other and I thought Margaret pointed out things that could help you with feelings. But at some point you took offense and she backed off realizing that you found it too hurtful. However it seemed that you were attacking and shaming her for things, attacked Larry for being “pastorlike”, Phil and others for their personalities.
I’ve not been in any group, but I’ve seen tapes and read much of the primal literature.
Art has said that he would never tolerate someone undermining the group by being insulting. That is why patients are in therapy–because they have already suffered abuse.
I too believe that the PSG rules are important, that we should all have respect for each other. I think the purpose of this group is to help each other and not to cast blame or shame. It is old feelings we are after–not to constantly defend ourselves in the present for our views about every subject that interests us. It is ultimately about getting rid of our anxieties, fears or whatever is tripping us up from a good life.
Sylvia, I think you are right that Patrick couldn’t go on and on in group like this. People would speak up in a way that would be more effective than is possible on an internet forum. I think he does fit the definition of a troll at the moment, unfortunately, with all the acting out. If he isn’t a troll, he could stop, but I don’t see that happening. Phil
The internet and this blog have their obvious disadvantages, but when I think of the dark ages of the 1990’s when Janov was the only person allowed to speak on an elevated podium at all concerning our favorite psychological matters I am happy to take the tradeoffs!
First quote:- “The internet and this blog have their obvious disadvantages” What are the disadvantages??? Not trying to get at you; you may well have some interesting ideas other than the obvious ones of not being ‘one on one or,eye to eye’
Second quote:- “when I think of the dark ages of the 1990’s when Janov was the only person allowed to speak on an elevated podium ” My take, for what it’s worth … 1990’s were not dark ages … then the second part of this quote … what’s with this about ONLY Janov being the only one “allowed to speak on an elevated podium” In several of his books, there were whole paragraph written by other therapist Barry B has also written articles in other publication also.
From some of your prior comments I get the feeling you are highly critical of the guy and your biggest, from my recollection, is that you do not approve of his atheism. I can only assume that you are ‘a card carrying’ follower of J C , who by my reckoning is:- a fictitious character, created by the religious folk of the time to create the perfect human … (Messia). As I was instructed in my classes of ‘religious instruction at my High School: Gospel according to Mark was written some 40 years after J C’s crucifixion and was the first of the gospels, the others took whole chunks of his stuff and they followed some 20 years after Mark. Prior to that it was all passed down by word of mouth, . The teacher had a masters in divinity.
Jack
I cannot think of any way in which it would be worth the monumental effort to straighten anything out with Jack.
Maybe $150-$200 per hour would do it for me on a slow day. Since that’s not going to happen, I am off to make dinner now. Goodbye!
*While dinner cooks*…After a bit more reflection $500 per hour feels more reasonable and it would be an exceptionally long process with many billable hours involved.
Bye … hopefully for a week or two least. Bye.
Jack
Quote:- “I cannot think of any way in which it would be worth the monumental effort to straighten anything out with Jack.” I’m sort of sure that you’d not be able to “think” it out.
What’s there to “sort out”???? If you were able to ‘feel’ it rather than ‘think’ it, there might, just might, be a way to figure it all out … presumably only for yourself.
I doubt you’d be into paying yourself.
Jack
Thanks Syvia – you make a lot os sense
Sorry that was me
You seem impressively sane, clear headed, and even brave, Sylvia. You seem able to clearly express what you need to…usually something insightful, and able to sidestep getting caught in other people’s struggles. Hard for me to believe you’ve never been to Primal Therapy, and encouraging to me to know there are non-primal people out there like you. I’m sorry that you’ve never been able to get to therapy to help you deal with your issues tripping you up. I hope you are nevertheless managing to have a good life.
Thank you Larry and Patrick for your comments. Larry, I am a work in progress and am ‘tripping’ a little less. Life is better and it is nice to be able to see the sensitivity in others. If it weren’t for a couple of friends who are just simply nice people I don’t think I could have made it this far. They were almost role models in that they truly care about people and aren’t driven by pain.
Yeah…My worst fears confirmed. Lots of reverse brain engineering involved. $800-$1,000/hour. It will be a long journey with many, many potential billable hours at hand. $100,000 minimum opening retainer with half being a starting bonus. Then it might be worth the effort to talk to Jack as long as there is a termination clause that I can exercise at any time at my discretion after five billable hours conferred with a $100,000 severance fee payable to me.
That should be a reasonably fair start given the circumstances, at least.
Why are you for ever talking about money???? You either don’t have any or, you feel you don’ have enough. As I read you I feel you are just a one dollar bill.
What’s the feeling behind all this stuff … you are after all on Primal feeling blog Yeah????
Jack
Guru – that reminds me of the joke Q:”How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb”
A; “Only one but it takes a very long time and the light bulb has really got to want to change”
The thing about Jack is he does not WANT to straighten anything out. He LIKES to be in a perpetual state of ‘argument’ (war) For all his ‘bragging’ about how much PT has done for him you will never find him addressing really obvious problems like that.The way I see it PT for Jack is PURE ‘religion’ He might as well say “praise the Lord (Janov)” constantly.
But I have to give him this…………..he seems ‘happy’ and full of devotion like some mystical figure from the Middle Ages. Whose to say it is not good for him. Probably better that whatever his ‘act-outs’ were…………….though his life is one long ‘act out’ the way I see it He is not interested in ‘change’ of any kind it seems he came to therapy this way he was ALREADY talking about his ‘book’ I have never seen any kind of change at all in the guy. But to me at least he is a super pest he ‘follows me around’ even though he does not mean me well…………..all his ‘advice’ is just like barbed wire it does not even try to be helpful. Whatever why am I even spending time on the dude “you can’t argue with a sick mind”……………..how long it takes me to really KNOW that.
Or “never argue with an idiot he will bring you down to his level and then beat you with his experience” I feel pretty beaten I give up he wins but even that he will not leave alone. Wants another ‘argument’
Or another one “Arguing with an idiot can be time consuming and mentally draining. Arguing with an idiot is a lot like a saying my dad used to tell me, “Never wrestle with a pig, you’ll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.” In other words, don’t argue with an idiot, you both look stupid and the idiot enjoys it!”
And I am sure I have looked ‘stupid’ and Jack says very clearly over and over again that he ‘enjoys’ it. He has said that many times
Guru – apropos of nothing but maybe also to change the subject to some less controversial. You put on a beautiful piece of music by Jimi Hendrix called “Waterfall” and I just came across this and it reminded me of it. This is about the making of the record but to me that piece of music is so amazing it just seemed worth it to hear it again.Such a soaring aching piece of music…………..
Patrick, I do think several people commented on the specifics or ” reality” of what you or Kollerstrom were claiming , I just don’t think you heard it. If you go back to the beginning I think you will find there were more comments than you might remember. I do want to point out that your contempt for supportive or nicey nice behavior seems only to be a problem when it is you not being supported. Along the same lines you are quick to say ” it’s only my opinion” while having a problem with myself and others expressing their opinions. You also made mention of the fact that on Dr Kruse’s blog there was no problem with you bringing up Primal. In other words you are not supported here but you are there presumably because they are more open to controversial thinking. But I think people were interested when you brought up Paleo. I think this is a very different situation which is likely why you are not exposing these views on Dr Kruses blog. I honestly think you would get a very similar reaction were you to bring these views up on Dr Kruses site or any other site for that matter. Gretchen
Gretchen I think you are right about that…………but that’s the POINT!!. If something is so un-speakable pretty much everywhere doesn’t that possibly tell you something”? I heard something recently and this was more in the ‘political’ realm look to find what you are not ‘allowed’ to talk about and that might give you a clue to what is important. And I will admit that is why I do like this blog very much and I have mentioned this before Dr Kruse’s blog has more ‘topics’ in it what I iike about this blog is you don’t need a ‘topic’ just whatever you are feeling or going through at any particular time.
Having said that it WAS someone on Dr Kruse site who told me about Kollerstrom and also the “Myth of German Villany” Now please no need to tag Dr Kruse as an ‘anti-semite’ or something I have never heard him saying anything about it or make any reference to it it was just someone on his site I got to ‘talking’ to on the side. I don’t want you sending any kind of Eli Wiesel goons or put the Simon Wiesenthal Center on to him. I know the kind of power they have if they choose to use it. But and this is maybe a stretch in general though the Dr Kruse people are very ‘open minded’ on the Cruise I was struck and impressed by that over and over. And it can be open minded about ‘science’ itself for example………………….to me as their brains and bodies get healthier they are less likely to just swallow any crap they are told or is put in front of them.And I’m afraid that covers most all of the “holocaust industry’ Eli Wiesel makes a good ‘industry’ out of it he apparently makes $25,000 a speech and shows up in a limousine. Nice work if you can get it.
Patrick,What gets me about all of this is that you seem to think you’ve come upwith startling new information to share with us. You are informing us.This Holocaust denial stuff has been around for many years and itis nothing new. I have come across it before many times, looked at it, and rejected it.There is no reason for me to look at it again.So the Nazi’s “final solution”, was a solution to the lice problem? It is a shamefor anyone to fall for that. I suggest you open your mind to the possibilityyou are wrong, which is OK, we all make mistakes, and do some more readingon this topic.Phil
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 07:22:49 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Waterfall……………………..
Patrick, No it doesn’t necessarily tell me something. It might depend on your mindset. It could tell me some things are incredibly hurtful or offensive and nothing more. For the record I was not thinking Dr Kruse was anti Semitic . My point was that I believe you would have gotten a similar reaction there to the one you received here no matter how open you think they may be. You are welcome to test that out but I hope you don’t. As for Wiesel, maybe he has something important to discuss. You should read him I think. G.
> precious means possessing value, worth of financial or emotional quality, also beloved for that matter.
> nothing to do with fragility imo.
OK I have decided to ‘ban’ myself for a month. So nothing from me until the middle of October (if then). Thanks for all your forbearance and now people can have a bit of peace for a while. And then nobody needs to make any tough decisions so it’s all good.
A month is not very long. Knowing you will be back keeps me frozen, unless we could close the door behind you and lock it.
> ha, sounds like a good decision, that is if you make it until hthe middle of november otherwise it would only be a day or so instead of a month..
> M
> it is strange, but somehow now Patrick decided to ban himself for a month, I feel like ok let the guy go, it is a good decision, although I am not sure about his motives which might be well, what do I know??
>
> but I seem a hopeless optimistic as to still carry a faint hope he will start to see the light some day, hopefully, although there too I know it is wishful thinking probably..
> stil I feel like don’t kick him while he is going, for some reason..
>
> part of my hope has probably an old drive of not wanting to give up on my dad, like maybe some day he will see how likeable I am, and be nice to me, maybe all misunderstandings and fears will be resolved, maybe there will be proper communication.
> I felt he mostly kept me at a distance, but the main thing I saw in his eyes, my dad’s, was fear and pain. he looked so scared of …, not of me, not of what I might do, but scared, some pain right there, and knowing what I know now, it had to do a lot with him being kept away from his first daughter from an earlier telationship, a halfsister of mine, 8 years older, whose mother was a crazy bitch..
>
> she told me several times how cuddly and loving he was with her, how she could always sit on his lap whenever she felt like it, something I could never do. so probably he shut down after losing her during many years, until she was 18 and he saw her again.
>
> it is very sad he had that reaction, instead of giving me that same kind of love, maybe his pain was too big and his fear to lose again, who knows, he has spoken with my mom about being incapable of hugging my brother and me for that reason.
>
> for my brother it was even worse, as he was not his son, and got less than I did even, or more negative stuff..
>
> so I guess I resonate with pain, and fear, and long to help, make things right, and people, including myself, happy…
>
> M
I’m glad Patrick is giving us a break and I would be fine if he decidedto leave for good, but don’t think he should be banned without havingviolated rules here. It’s easy for me to comment on a controversy butharder for me to talk about myself. I’m afraid that when I do interject myself, like at times in the past days, it is about me anyway. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it’s maybe look at me, I have something important to say etc. Even if what I say is totally relevant to the discussion.Phil Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:10:14 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
After I wrote this, I was really feeling the truth of this, that my recent comments have a lot to do with wanting attention. Not changing what I was saying but accounting for why I was doing it.
I was feeling more on it a little while ago. I was starved for attention from my mother,
there is hardly anything I got from her. I was remembering my sister getting some attention, and the feeling I had was “me too”, “what about me”. My sister was 9 years older than me; I felt forgotten, aching for attention. Something seemed possible at
that moment, other times it was totally out of reach.
Phil
> hey Phil, I relate.
> for me too it started to really frustrate me and make me feel ‘what about me?’..
> all that attention all going one way, from him, about him, to him, and why, for actually misbahaving most of the time.
> as I said, I don’t mind to invest time and energy if it feels even slightly constructive, but there is a limit to how much you want to be offended and well, yes, what about me??
> it seems a mixture of past and present feeling, and of course specially all that attention it got from Gretchen increases the old ‘jealousy’, the old pain of not counting, not mattering..
> it got speciallly hard to bear as it all seemed to become utterly pointless at some point, and I appreciate Patrick took that step, even a month seeems ok, for me it is hard to imagine I’d feel like banning someone forever, though not entirely unthinkable under circumstances I do not feel like thinking about or talking about, where I might really draw a definite line, exceptionally.
>
> specially as this is a therapeutic kind of environment, with actual people in my life I don’t like at all, it would be easier to decide I do not want to have to do anything with them if I could avoid it, matter of healthy common sense in that case.
>
> but here everyone deserves second chances and third if there seems to be some honest effort made..
>
> hope things will turn out better when the dust will have settled.
> already I feel relaxing when writing now, not a kind of war zone anymore..
> I do hope people start talking a bit about themselves again.
>
> M
Let’s assume 750 million people around the world have been inoculated on the Jews and other assorted ethnic groups killed under Hitler’s regime, and that 25 million people denied that it happened. Jesus, man….I would love to have those numbers of people inoculated on the sheer size of the traffic collision problem. I would shrug and say “So what?” about the 25 million hypothetical deniers in such a case. As it stands, you’d be lucky to find a couple hundred thousand people throughout the world that truly understand the killing power of high-velocity machines. It’s a near complete barren wasteland of indifference for the families left behind.
Maybe this is why I am not as upset about Patrick’s antics as most here on the blog seem to be. If I was already assured that nearly a billion people at least already knew about fatal road collisions, and Patrick took it upon himself to actively deny on the blog that fatal road collisions ever take place…I would just shrug and say, “So what? There’s still a billion people out there that acknowledge the problem. Let this one guy do his thing.”
Of course you would Mmmmm!!!!!! Isn’t Patrick a phone buddy of yours and isn’t he someone you have some Arthur Janov denials; about his methods, practice and maybe even theories. You’re chummies and I see the pair of you.
My feeling is you’d like to keep your chumminess intact. His leaving the blog for a while should not upset your status quo Mmmmm???
I gather he’s not returning to Eire for a little time … which wouldn’t prevent him from getting on the blog anyway. I understand they joined the 21st century a wee while ago.
Jack
Nope, I almost never talk to the man. I’ve actually been talking to you a lot more than I do him!!
Yet another idea you got totally wrong.
I probably talk to Gretchen about 30 times as much as I do Patrick. I have too many other things to worry about.
Ok … now I know I got that one wrong (amongst all my other wrongteous nesses).
One point I feel about you is that you are for ever going on about traffic fatalities. That’s understandable in view of what happened to your mother when you were little. I would be interested and feel it would be in keeping with this blog if you were able to talk/write about how it affected you in childhood and to this present day.
My knowledge (not that intensive) of other Gurus I’ve read, is that they teach one how NOT to be affected by the travails of daily life. A sort of transcendence of such matters. I personally find that a deprivation of living life to it’s fullest. Maybe that is perhaps another factor that you might enlighten me about. I’d appreciate it.
Jack
Hi All
I do not understand why any of you engage, even for a split second, Joop and his mate, Patrick on this blog.
They do not belong here. They bring nothing to this blog, other than totally misguided ideology.
Everyone of you, tried and tried to engage them in a meaningful, humane, sympathetic way.
And all you ever got is a kick in the teeth. WAKE UP!
Their dialogue is not entertaining. It is spiteful, demeaning, full of poison.
I’ve never met in my life two people who can lower the standard of a very meaningful blog into the gutter.
DO NOT LET IT HAPPEN.
Stop acquiescing to them. You do not owe them anything. Especially listening to their sorrowful dialogue.
Put a stop to it.
Tom
Tom, I couldn’t agree with you more. After exhibiting corrosive behaviour here over and over, it frustrates me that people continue to engage with Patrick, in effect inviting him to stay longer. Personally, knowing that he’s going to be back and people will slide right back into the same fights and arguments with him all over again, makes it hard for me to relax and open up here. I’m bracing myself for his return. On the other hand, Patrick’s and Joops contributions to this blog have given me insight into how strange some people’s ideations can be. It seems there is always something to be learned from the exhanges that happen on this blog.
Tom: Maybe you include me in your statement of engaging them. I feel my ‘poking’, better identified as the “Jack and pony show” does and has had some effect.
Since Gretchen wants to keep it open and free and no banning I accept that as the rules for this blog. However, I do concede that my poking is perhaps getting tiresome for others. I would be open and hope if some feel that way; they would tell me so. That way I get a better sense of what my comments achieve or don’t achieve as the case may be.
Jack
Hi Tom, I guess Joop and Patrick are people too. Patrick seemsto think what he does here is therapeutic, but I’m doubtful.I find, at times, for my own sake I do have to speak up even if it seems to encourage him to continue.You are right, but I don’t see how we put a stop to it. How are you doing? Phil
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 00:42:42 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil, your writing about the attention you needed helped me to give some more thought to the attention that was happening on the post. Seeing so many people give all this attention to negativity was triggering something, but I was unclear until reading your post jogged something loose. I remembered as a teenager being envious of those who could act out and not catch supreme shit for it. Yes, those act’er out’ers were the ones who got the attention. But more than that, they were the ones the teachers and officials noticed needing help, and got help for them. Help from school councillors, social workers, or from the teachers themselves. It seemed to me that others would get this magical help for being “troublemakers” and I was the one trying to be as invisible as possible because getting attention meant getting murderlized at home for far lesser crimes. man!, that memory hurts.
That makes a lot of sense.
In my early 20’s after I first read the Primal Scream, I became aware of and opened up to my feelings and for a while I self-primalled. Among the first feelings that erupted was being back in high school and crying why didn’t anyone help me. The teachers must have seen what a shy, quiet non-participant I was in school life, but none made an attempt to help or encourage me. Maybe they sensed I was too far gone. If they had tried to help I probably would have recoiled in pain, needing far more help than they could give and needing to remain a non-entity to keep all my pain down.
The thing that bothers me about all the energy put into arguing with Patrick on the blog is that it takes up a lot of peoples’ time and attention and never gets anywhere, and displaces the contributions that many other people might make about their lives and situations.
One good solution to this would be a standard message board format. You would have threads that people can open and close. A person starts a thread, people can respond to it, or they can not look at the thread altogether. The WordPress blog format does not lend itself well to suiting everyone’s needs. Some people want to banish Patrick, while others want a good fight….so,….you would have for instance, a format like this:
Thread Titles
a) Patrick’s Celtic Fighter Holocaust thread
b) Larry’s Problem
c) Tom’s Problem
d) Margaret’s Mom
e) Gretchen’s Musings
When you first access the page, you would only see the TITLES that people have created when they want to start a new subject, you would not see any responses to those titles unless you manually click open the thread title someone created so you can explore. If you are not interested in a thread, you just pass it over instead of these repeated calls for banning, etc.
VBulletin (VBulletin Link) distributes this sort of forum software, but the downside is there may be some hosting fees involved unlike WordPress. I’m not an expert on running websites, but the cost could be anywhere from $200-$1,000 per year depending on how much traffic you need to manage (I may be wrong on which exact factor causes this cost variation).
Word Press is free, yet a lot of tension has arisen because of the format forcing a lot of people to look at an issue (Patrick’s topics) they’d rather not deal with. A forum message board format would go a long way to solving something like this by partitioning all the discussions in an accordion-style file folder format.
Hi USG
You are missing the point. We don’t need a technical way to deal with the likes of Patrick and Joop. We just don’t need them to be participating on this blog. Period.
That’s the only fix we need.
Tom
Well….I tend to disagree with you guys, but…..I simply don’t have the time or energy to fight this out myself.
You guys’ complaints about Patrick shoving this topic in your faces reminds me a lot of my complaints about the news media shoving 9/11 in everyone’s faces year after year after year after year while the military contractors gleefully egged on the media hysteria suckling trillions of American taxpayer dollars, ignoring the other killings quietly going on in this country.
Had to say that, end of rant.
Sandy,As a kid I also tended to try to be as invisible as possible whichI now see as a different kind of acting out on my part.An especially ineffective type. I mostly gave upat an early age actively calling out for help. Terrible to want and need something and yet be unable to even tryto get it. It is much better for me to speak up even if it is acting out.At least it is expressing something. Phil
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:09:34 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil, I fully agree it was an act out on my part. However, I’m now late for work (another act out) so gotta run (another act out) sigh 🙂
Sandy, For me that’s an act out but I wasn’t concluding it’s thesame for you. Phil Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:12:32 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Guru, Just out of curiosity … Why would you disagree with everyone? Patrick’s shoving his views in everyone’s face reminds you of having something shoved into your face then wouldn’t you tend to agree with the group? Are you saying you are now fine with having something shoved into your face? It’s a little confusing! Gretch
Do you think I should be assimilated into the Borg by agreeing with everyone, then?
I said their complaints of Patrick shoving it in their faces reminds me of what the news media did in a different instance. Everyone was perfectly free to respond to Patrick immediately whenever they felt like it right here, right now, on the blog. In the instance of 9/11 and the news media, any citizens that may have wanted to complain that the story is being grotesquely overblown for the financial benefit of a small group of people didn’t have that power to provide immediate feedback to the television set or the newspaper.
Now if people feel too intimidated to respond to Patrick when they have the immediate means to do so, isn’t that their feeling they need to contend with? Isn’t that the point of Primalling?
In summary: The blog readers have the power to give immediate, scathing feedback to Patrick if they want…and those critical words take up just as much blog real estate in front of the reader as Patrick’s words. Where the news media and television is concerned yammering on and on about 9/11? HAH! Good luck with that one. Citizen feedback doesn’t mean squat in that case. It’s all politics, big money, and the military running the show and it becomes a one-way stream of communication where we can do nothing but helplessly listen to what’s being shoved in front of us. You can fight back immediately where Patrick is concerned if that’s what you want. That’s the critical difference between the two mediums.
In case you haven’t noticed, the combined weight of your objections already compelled Patrick and Joop to put a self-imposed moratorium on their postings. I could never dream of forcing my television set or newspaper to finally shut the fuck up about the Terror War unless I wanted to avoid the news altogether. I have no power in that case except for the long passage of time when the news media hypesters finally burn themselves out many years later at their own leisure.
To quote one of my favorite movies ” Silver Linings Playbook” ……” Calm down crazy!” . No, I don’t want you assimilated into the Borg ( although at times you might be a bit borgtastic) I simply wondered about what seemed like a contradiction. I do wonder about this idea that saying how you feel about something should, can, or will result in a person or situation actually changing. Sometimes we say what we think because we need to not because it will change someone or something but because it changes us. I think this idea that in the blog situation we have power but in your situation you have none is rooted elsewhere. Patrick said things that impacted others on the blog but it was Patrick that decided to go away for a month. I think it’s unlikely anything that was said changed how Patrick felt on this subject and that’s the important thing in the end. It would be similar were you to respond to a newspaper article knowing that you are unlikely to change the views of most people on 911 or make your views on the car industry clearer to the majority of people. Still sometimes you have to speak out . You do it for you and you let go of the outcome. Gretchen
As a p.s. And this is my opinion…. It was not the weight of objections that compelled Patrick to do anything in my view. Patrick knew the response he would get long before he posted that first link. That’s why it was posted here and not elsewhere … Because of those objections! In my view it is naive to think otherwise. G.
Gretch,
So if i understand you correctly, he didn’t care so much about what he was saying… he was just trying to get a rise out of everyone? Manipulating any takers so he can get his intended reaction? I’m asking for a reality check from you because I need to gain more understanding of my feelings. If you think that is the case, that would explain why I wanted to run away kicking and screaming, I tend to do that when I sense (consciously or unconsciously) I’m being manipulated. Sandy
Gretchen: In your two posts to me last night I noticed two very slick things you said. I don’t hold it against you, though, and I’ve accepted it with a wry amusement anymore. To me they are harmless psychological beguilements that help to train my mind.
Patrick was right in certain ways, you are:
—Extremely caring, ready to treat your clients like a fuzzy peach just waiting to be squeezed with a big hug
—Sweetly attentive to anyone you wish to be in an exquisite manner
—Loyal to the point where even the fiercest soldiers would have to pause with admiration
yet…..
—Very slick. I once called it “slippery” a long time ago, but you didn’t like it. Patrick and I are not alone in this assessment because I remember Kim once saying many years ago on the blog that you were “crafty”.
I believe you would have made one of the very best and highest-earning funeral directors in the entire world, being able to sell 24-karat golden caskets with enormous markups to even your poorest grieving clients if you had wanted to do so. Luckily for the rest of us you elected not to take this path…
I will describe these two slick areas in more detail shortly, yet I don’t really hold them against you. It comes with the territory where I am concerned; you are a psychologist, after all.
OK, the two areas of craftiness (both were indomitable, inescapable traps):
Let’s look at the second post first:
As a p.s. And this is my opinion…. It was not the weight of objections that compelled Patrick to do anything in my view. Patrick knew the response he would get long before he posted that first link. That’s why it was posted here and not elsewhere … Because of those objections! In my view it is naive to think otherwise. G
You created an unescapable trap for Patrick here.
Your post sounds well and good and you even explicitly said it is your opinion, yet you addressed it to myself and the blog after knowing Patrick banned himself from the blog for a month. You’ve said that people have a right to respond if you express your opinion on the blog, but Patrick is screwed in this case because he is trapped into not responding:
a) If he comes back to the blog to respond to your opinion, everybody gets mad at him for violating his one-month moratorium
b) If he stays silent to respect the month-long self-ban, everyone can only mull over your opinion alone without any counterpoint on Patrick’s part.
I don’t think this is fair to Patrick at all, and I suggest he be allowed an exception to the ban to respond to your opinion here.
One down, one to go on the psychological oil slicks. I will return with the second one in a bit.
> UG,
> why didn’t you mention the title of a thread of your own?
> but I think it would take a lot of vitality out of the blog to work that way, and what about being triggered? smiley,
> one good way against having to do all the scrolling etc. is to have the site sent the comments by direct mail, you can delete them and make them vanish and go to the next right away if wanted.
> but I feel it is good some boundaries have been marked even in an indirect way. how would you feel if some automobile freaks started invading the blog with long posts about all the advantages and delights of speeding on the highway for example?
> and denying your numbers or ridiculing them?
> for months ?
> but actually come to think of it this is beside the point altogether, the main problem is not really mentioning controversial topics, for me the real problem lays in how and why, the list you once made with a few options to Patrick, or questions or whatever, was very much the nail on the head, as to unravelling some of the emotional patterns driving him, which he briefly acknowledged and then as usual quickly avoided adressing .
> it is the mere goal of being hurtful that feels unacceptable if it gets pointed out repeatedly, and as clearly as posssible, and I must say how you did it was splendid in its clarity and accuratesse, and if then the persons still persist in their behaviour of being hurtful for the sake of it, refusing to even look at their motives or to consider adjusting them, or at least not showing any sign of it here, well, that becomes pretty hard to keep dealing with in the long run. I see no reason why one should allow a bully to keep shitting on your head.
> and no, it is not enough to simply ignore him after a while, I have been attacked on several occasions without even being part of the conversation.
> I remember the first violent attack to me about my former cat was completely out of the blue, even Patrick admitted it was merely because he was so angry at Jack, and I functioned as a kind of lightning rod to take some of the heat, well, that is not really acceptable if it goes on and on, in my opinion.
>
> I give him credit for stepping out for a month, it must not be easy, specially if he keeps reading .
>
> but well, we can have different opinions of course, no problem, I am glad for myself I did take a clear stand at some point, which is all one can do here.
> M
> UG,
> I suppose you noticed a comment was accidentally posted under Phil’s name at the top, which was mine, see the M at the bottom, smiley..
> M
Margaret: Hi there, OK, I noticed the Caitlyn Jenner transformation in you pretending to be Phil, yes, but thanks for correcting it now. I have to be brief here because I am juggling several things today. I would ask if you can refer back to my October 14th post at 7:53 pm (if you can possibly do it with your software setup),. It would answer some of the car fanatic hypothetical questions you posed to me.
I have to write to Gretchen and then work on other things for the moment. Write another post to me and I will attempt to write out a lengthier response on the next go-a-round.
Please note I am not arguing against your descriptions of Patrick’s sometimes abusive behavior towards you.
Here’s me putting my two cents in again. Permit me to tell about my background which a lot of the comments reminded me of.
On rainy Sunday afternoons when my father was home and we all six, four kids and mam and dad, would sit round the fire and my father would set off what we termed an argument. Later we called them discussions and later still when I was in school they were called debates. Well! those wet rainy Sunday afternoons (every other Sunday where I came from) were great moments for all of us, if my feelings from all the others was anything to go by. My dad would play chairperson if things got out of hand, but my memories of them were that it was such fun and we could, without using swear words, say pretty much anything we liked. What I feel it gave all of us was a feeling that nothing was beyond discussion. Even sex when we kids got old enough to understand a little about it, leastways know where each of us came from and why. We kinds were only 3 years + apart
My father just before he died when I brought up those moments, told me that he wanted us kids to be free thinkers and to think for ourselves. It is my sense he achieved most of that. To this day we are able, the three of us remaining siblings, still have that capacity to talk very freely to one another, even huge disagreements. I am recounting this since the current fracas on the blog has never disturbed me. When I say I have fun poking Patrick in particular or others, I really mean that I find it fun hence I love blogging and I love in particular this blog.
As I feel most know, I find crying when I am sad, very easy, even though my Jimbo doesn’t like me crying, and if he could, would try and comfort me out of it. I even don’t mind his attempt, but still continue to cry until I’ve done enough as signaled by MY body. The same applies to my anger though I do have to be careful with Jim as it can spiral out of control. So I have it away from his presence. It’s the fears and terrors that are the feelings I still balk at and for the most part are just for seconds at a time. Mostly they come up in my dreams and I’m fighting someone or even a group, for my life. I sort of know where it comes from yet I don’t like those terror feeling. They spell imminent death. For the moment I don’t want to die. The one other thing I have taken into great account is “defending” When I sense it coming on I put in as much effort as I can muster to cease and desist. I can accept all name calling, but I don’t like being physically hurt. My mothers would often say “sticks and stones may hurt my bones … but calling me won’t hurt me”
Ok, I hope that lets everyone know where I’m coming from.
Jack
Correction: Last line, second paragraph should read “We kids were only 3 years + apart”
Jack
Jack, That is interesting. But with Patrick or UG that doesn’t seem to be the kind of debate you describe. To me UG has an agreeable presence here so I don’t know why you poke him. I am supposing you have no long history with him here as you do with Patrick. I preferred the Democratic presidential debate to the Republicans, as there were no personal attacks. Phil
Phil: UG and I have something of a history, not too many years, and recently he stated that I had a thing about him and I replied that I did indeed have a thing about him and pointed it out. There were about five points, and I have a copy of it should you be interested.
From memory:- I have nothing against pseudonyms per se, but I felt his was highly conceited and arrogant (almost as conceited and arrogant as me). I did object to his references to and about Arthur Janov and wondered at his doing Primal Therapy if those were his sentiments about him. I did feel that he rarely if ever talked about his feelings on the blog, and from past communications with him has objected to the word “neurosis”, and I concluded that he perhaps did not consider himself to have been or currently ‘neurotic’. Another was his stating that he had “tomes of wisdom” and I replied I had never seen any evidence of it.
I don’t dislike the guy, but I do not particularly like the way he presents himself. We did in the past have phone communications whereby I knew his real name and where he lived. I have never divulged either though he did in one instance divulge his real name and when I used it, he objected to my using it stating that he divulged it accidentally. I have since referred to him a “Guru”
Hope that lets you know where I stand with him.
Jack
Jack, I have seen that UG has a picture of money as his icon. So I was assuming that money or the striving for it was the ultimate guru, not him. Phil
Phil: I don’t see it that way. I feel he’s about monetary compensation for all his ills. I had and read several time a book “Seven Laws of Money” which I found highly illuminating. To and for me, money resolves nothing … of the inner demons. They don’t give a flying fuck about this self imposed restriction on life.
My Jimbo is convince if he could win the Power Ball or lottery Jack Pot, all his problems will be solved. I’ve insisted that he’d then have a whole series of other problems. His retort is to say:- “try me”.
I have a story and maybe it’s worth repeating:- When I live as a hippy in Ibiza, Spain; I knew a millionaire who once said to me:- “Jack; if I spend two weeks of the year thinking or worrying about earning money, that’s about the extent of it” I replied “I have no doubt D, but the trouble is you think and worry for the other 50 weeks about how to spend it”. and that’s how the fight started. He slapped me several time across the face to which I replied:- “You won the fight and I won the argument” He than slapped me again. I then left his house.
Jack
Jack, I know you’d like to abolish money and UG has it as his symbol. When I consider that, I see the problem. Phil
Phil: Who has the problem????
Jack
I do it for laughs. Personal laughs for myself and nobody else.
Jack, it seems you both do; with each other. Phil
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
jackwaddington commented on: Remembering Summer part 4.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/remembering-summer-part-4/#comment-22257) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/remembering-summer-part-4/)
This was in response to Phil:
Phil: I would not call it a problem for either of us, since Guru states, categorically, he does it for laughs. I would be tempted to call it ‘a point of contention’ or at worst a conflict of interests.
I am happy for Guru that he finds it a laughing matter. That should and does not preclude me from having fun by pokes. Facebook uses the word liberally and I use it in what I perceive as a similar manner. Putting sentences and phrases back to a person by way of quotes should not be particularly offensive … unless the person feels the person poking has an agenda. I use pokes in the hope, at best, I will get a response more clearly about the quote.
For me, a lot of this rest on my reading of Thuless’ “Straight and Crooked Thinking” I see a lot of crooked thinking taking place in many areas especially politics. We’ll use a phrase in one context then relate back to it in quite another context. I’m not free from the same ‘crooked thinking’, but I do like to be reminded when I am doing it.
Jack
Guru , Except ….. This is the 3rd time I have brought this up! He had the opportunity to respond to this issue and did. His response was that it was slick. You may recall my response was to say ” interesting choice of word” I said that because I had only heard that word used one other time and that was from you. I admit I did not think it was a coincidence. And again I did not ban Patrick he did, so presumably he is free to say what he wants. G.
I used “slippery”, Patrick used “slick”, and another person used “crafty”. I want to emphasize that I generally view this as relatively harmless. It’s part and parcel to being a psychologist from what I can see. It can actually be a beneficial tool if the client can actively describe the tricky areas being seen.
I could have used “tricky”, I suppose..
It’s not like you come remotely close to Bernie Madoff’s level or anything. The explorations of trickiness can be a healing tool. I’ll have to come back with the other explanation later.
Guru, Actually you did use the word slick multiple times and you used the word slippery as well. Plus you have used the term slick in the past. I don’t think it’s fair to quote the person who used crafty here as I don’t believe it was used in the same way at all. Maybe it’s best to stick with yourself and Patrick’s views. G.
Have limited knowledge here, but only see you in the field of helping people. Perhaps a cheerleader even. The funeral director’s clients cannot be helped. I think it would have been boring for you. Their loss is our gain.
S
I really don’t remember ever using the word “slick” at all. I did use “slippery” a couple times, and all of the words (slick, slippery, crafty, and tricky) seem to have interchangeable meanings to me. Patrick and I have separate and distinct viewpoints on a lot of things, so to say that I should stick with mine and Patrick’s views seems unfair here. Why do you and Jack keep lumping me in a group with him when we have separate minds? It’s so strange; I hardly ever talk to him even though we get along reasonably well.
Now, the second explanation: You brought up that scene from “Silver Linings Playbook” with that, “Calm down crazy!” line. The context of which is a lady running after a guy while jogging and the guy gets mad at her for following him around.
So here you are, a psychologist telling me “Calm down, crazy!” What sort of horrid inferences could the uninitiated blog reader derive from this setting?
a) If I say nothing, your quote might instill a kernel of undisputed truth in your statement leaving the reader believing, “Yes, the Guru doesn’t deny it. He is crazy and just doesn’t show it!”
b) If I become defensive and touchy about the quote, people can point at that and say, “AHA! See? He’s being touchy about the crazy comment, so he must be crazy since it affects him so much.”
I can’t escape this indomitable “crazy” trap either way. I have no other choice but to fight back in my own way and start discussing the (slick, slippery, tricky, crafty) angle.
I also believe you neglected to give enough importance to the blog/newspaper/television real estate issue…I think it’s extremely powerful and shows the stark contrast between blogs and television/newspapers.
I could yak yak yak on it more, but as I told Sylvia a while ago I am slowly trying to divest myself away from blogging. I’ve already done it for many years and it has slowly lost its charm for me. Less enthusiasm, more exhaustion about it overall.
Fresh, new blogging blood would be a good thing. What happened to David, from Nova Scotia? Blogging takes up intense mental energy when I have to conserve that for other things..
Hi Guru. For me blogging takes a lot of energy too, not just mental but emotional too. Some emotions really pack a wallop, not knowing how my opinion will be received is always trying. Though usually learn something. Don’t give up if it’s valuable to you.
Sylvia: No, I won’t give up, yet I can definitely tell over the years how my enthusiasm from days of yore has slowly given way to more exhaustion about it today. I’ve been at this since 2008 and it’s now 2015 (almost 2016), soo….yeah. Somewhere along the way I must slowly retreat back to the milky cloud-laced mountaintops once more, at least bit by bit.
Hey Guru, Honestly the calm down crazy comment was meant as affectionate teasing. I don’t think you are crazy and I don’t think you will calm down ( teasing again!) ! You know Guru, you keep saying well, I don’t think I used that word but maybe I used this one as though you would need to mull this over a bit. All you have to do is scroll up a few posts and there it is! I’m a tad confused by that! I believe slick was used four times. Gretch
Gretchen, OK thank you for saying I am not crazy. I get touchy about those things *glances furtively about the room*.
I was referring to “slick” being used before this whole topic was brought into sharp focus these past 24 hours. I never used it before then; only “slippery” once or twice.
Hey Sylvia, Yes I was not so sure about the funeral director comment myself as I know Guru actually isn’t too fond of them. I guess being compared to one would have to be considered a negative. It’s funny you made the cheerleader comment as I never see myself that way but….. When I first came to therapy there was a Christmas group. Vivian bought little gifts for everyone who attended that group ( she only did that once) that were suppose to have some significance. Anyway my gift was a little cheerleader doll! So you must be picking up on something. If Vivian Janov sees it and Sylvia sees it then I know it must be true! 🙂 Gretch
I am not prejudiced against funeral directors as a group. I’ve just had very bad experiences with one in particular that has been a long-term pain in my ass. I can’t comment further.
Guru, Yes I know you have had a problem in the past with funeral directors. This is why my comparison to one has caused me to think that I too am a long term pain in the ass! G.
Gretchen: No, just one director has been the source of my angst. Just one. No, I didn’t think of you as a long term pain in the ass when I suggested you could have been a world-class funeral director. My brain doesn’t make those sorts of connections.
Sandy, I do believe that Patrick has those prejudices but I also tend to think there is some unconscious manipulation at play as well. Who would not know that people will react to those comments? I do believe there is a kind of re- creation going on but maybe I am wrong. I mean you have the institute having been founded by two people who are not religious but are Jewish. You now have it being run by someone who is Jewish plus we have many Jewish patients some who lost family members in the Holocaust. Of course there will be drama. I have to wonder about that. So yes I do believe you picked up on something. Hope you are well and it’s nice to have you visit the blog despite all the recent controversy ! Gretch
Thanks Gretchen, this is really helpful that you confirmed this. You see, sometimes I have the same reaction when it seems inappropriate to the moment. So I now have better understanding of what’s going on with me at those times. I can feel more confident in the knowledge that it’s the underlying intent I’m reacting to, not necessarily the content of what the person is saying. For example there are times someone’s telling me something where I should be feeling all warm and fuzzy about them, but instead I feel a very particular brand of anger. Now I can feel sure that that’s what manipulation feels like. Sandy
I find it interesting that Bernie Sanders (the socialist Democrat Prez candidate) is a Jew. He has been railing hard against the billionaire oligarchs of the country along with the USA’s wealth inequality problem. I don’t think I am being controversial when I say there is a popular conception out there of the Jews largely being the money hoarders of society, so Bernie is proving to be a huge break from that mold. I have known a few Jewish people intimately before I ever went to LA and they were all middle-class and below. (When I say “intimately” I am referring to working closely with them over many months’ time.)
Personally, I think it is the Irish who are the real hoarders. they keep so many potatoes under their mattresses that they can barely sleep. That is why they have to drink so much whiskey, so they can finally pass out for the night. And they are always fighting with the Arabs. But where would we be without them? HA!
Funny
Ahhh humour! Where would we be without it!
> UG,
> well, I admit my comparison with the hypothetical car fanatics was not really a good one, so let’s drop it, is that ok?
> and indeed, it would be a big hassle to look up that comment with the screenreader, specially as my postbox seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, throwing me back years without a clear reason, and making other funny jumps back and forth with little logic. that is the postbox with the deleted stuff, not my box in luckily..
> and well, just apart from the (non) discussion about it here, isn’t it so slick usually has a slightly negative connotation and crafty always a positive one? I would for that reason not refer to them as interchangeable, even not being a native English speaker. slippery seems to be somewhere in the middle of the scale, can be both sort of.
> not a big deal either, just checking, as usually you are very accurate about details like that.
> it would also explain why it is important to you to acknowledge you did not use the word slick before the discussion started.
> good to hear you will hang around here some more, smiley..
> M
>
> sylvia,
> I adress you as the most obvious fellow cat lover, for a chat about my furry guys..
> they are at the vet right now, which is hard, mostly for me right now as they did not seem to mind too much to travel. I put them together in a bigger cage that I bought, as they are so close with each other I preferred to join them up instead of putting them in a separate cage.
> they need to be castrated, which I do not like to have to do, but as a house cat there is not much other option, for several reasons.
> one of them is they would start sprawling the entire place with their odours sooon, as they are adolescents now, and they’d probably also get very frustrated and want to go on the hunt for a female.
> and also but that would not matter to me too much, it is obligatory here now with mostly all cats as there are too many strays already, so it is actually a positive thing to do for the cat population here in general, less hungry and cold stray cats or cats that need to be put down in shelters as there remains not enough room at some point.
>
> it feels bad, but not too bad as they do not seem to suffer too much afterwards, in blissful ignorance of what actually disappeared..
> still, I wish it would not be necessary, and only write about it now because Patrick is not here to try and make me feel worse.
>
> they are brothers, and very very handsome, a kind of special colour design, not race cats, clearly a mix of many things as they have spots spread unevenly on a white background, with a dark mask and a dark tail, both of them.
> only tiny differences in the shape of some spot make it possible to keep them apart, and now gradually the tiny one is growing into the much bigger one, graciously leaving the top cat spot to his brother that actually is much smaller now.
> they cuddle up together a lot of the time, one big bundle of paws and tails and fur and whiskers, all purrs, so endearing.
>
> this morning one specially warmed my heart, Plukkie, the now big one, came under the covers with me for a few moments, cuddled up, stretched and purred loudly, and then I felt these two huge very soft and very warm fluffy palms of his fromt paws on my cheeks. when he opens them up like that, for an affectionate touch, they are huge, all softness, cushions, fur in between, and very warm as cats have a high body temperature. one paw on each of my cheeks, in what can only be referred to as a gesture of afffection, tips of some claws noticeable but just barely, no scratching whatsoever.
> he kept them like that for a while, purring, and it warmed my soul..
> it is so nice to feel often in a very real and present way how much I love them, and how nice it is our bond keeps becoming closer all the time, more trusting, and even more affectionate than it already was at the start.
>
> I recently read one of Terry Pratchetts great funny fantasy books, in which one character wonders about what makes this world worthwhile really, and after a moments silence, as they are in kind of a tight spot, one answers, ‘well, there are cats..’, which for me makes a lot of sense.
> cats seem to know the art of living, they so clearly take pleasure in all they do, dozin, stretching, yawning, eating, playing like idiots and having tremendous fun, and getting almost ecstatic when it comes to cuddling and petting and rubbing their smell off on you and exchanging affection.
>
> I am very glad I took two little brothers, it is so very nice to watch them together, they are definitely very happy, and make me feel that way as well.
>
> i have a meal of freshly cooked biologically raised chicken ready for them when they come back home this afternoon and will make sure they feel ok again quickly. a bowl of yummie food usually does a good trick there , and then they love to stretch out in fromt of the gas fire to keep their belly warm while digesting.
> kind of like a pair of hunting dogs in front of an English fireplace in some manor, smiley..
> I did not buy them, they were kittens of a stray cat, which were urgently needing a welcoming home, and i feel so privileged with them in my life.
> yeah, sorry for teh non cat people, haha, just delete, M
Margaret: A lovely story of you and your little furry friends. I’ve been both a cat person and a dog person and they both are very different.
After the last cat that Jim and I had died we decided that it was too painful to go through our pets dying … but the memories remain. Yes, I took our last cat to be neutered and didn’t like it, but if you are having pets in a city it’s a necessity. When I had cats in Ibiza in the very deep country the thought to neutering never occurred to me.
Meantime enjoy your furry friends Margaret whilst you can, and any others os you that have pets.
Jack
Margaret, I think its important to talk about those that you care about. Don’t we go through all this pain so that we can have loving moments like this? Sandy.
Margaret, I very much liked your cat story, as I have my own life with my wonderful dog now, and I say with no bias whatsoever, that she is the best dog in the world.
> the kitties are back home already, and they are really fine!
> a girlfriend came by to accompany us home and as soon as we arrived they started settling in again, drank a bit of water, ate something, in small portions today, and were even playful and socialble with my friend which is a very good sign they are feeling really ok already.
>
> they received a painkiler that works for several days so should be fine as it is only a small operation.
> I am so happy they did not get traumatized or fearful, they are still their loving playful confident selves, and run along for every little meal I go and prepare for them with enthusiasm!
> soon they will be able to eat as much as they want again, they seem pretty fit already, hurray!
> a very relieved cat mommy..
> M
Hi Margaret,I’m so glad your kitties are fine! Phil
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:38:14 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Margaret: That was a heartwarming story you wrote; I echo Phil in saying it’s nice to hear how happy you are with your new kitty family.
> thanks guys, smiley and some purring from the couch ..
> M and Pluche and Plukkie
Hi Margaret. Nice that you can talk freely about your kittens without a pounce lurking, because they must be a joy and we enjoy hearing about them. I am still trying to tame a mother cat feeding her and making it inviting to stay around.
Glad your guys came through well from the procedure. Intact males are a problem and have a harsh life fighting. I think they will thank you later. Enjoy your little cuties!
S
> hi Sylvia,
> sounds like it might be hard to get that cat to come around enough to let you touch it for example.
> but maybe if you provide a good refuge she will use it for her next litter and those kittens will be more trusting.
> I have taken care of a male cat like that when I lived in Spain, but he ended up allowing us closer occasionally, sometimes even cautiously entering the house. food worked of course to increase his trust, but probably he had been someones cat somewhere in his past.
> when his moment of dying had come, he did choose to do so in a cardboard box on our terrace right next to the kitchen door, where we found him one morning.
> I feel something resonate in me with the loneliness and fear and longing to trust, the feeling of being ‘lost and scared’, and meaning well and wanting closeness and love but fearing to be hurt..
> their vulnerability , some strong trigger there somehow..
> M
Hi Margaret. This cat is truly wild. But like you’ve said she does appreciate the digs I have set up for her; there is a shed with a box of blankets she can go to. For now she and kitten sleep under the shed. They were living next door under an unoccupied trailer, but still came over to eat here. I’ve seen her around for 3 yrs. but always assumed she might have owners but as I get to know her–don’t think so. When I bring food and her kitten (who is as big) accompanies, she hisses at me and threatens to charge me. I’ve practiced standing around like a cow and not moving and they seem to accept me as long as I’m 10 ft. away.
She has a fully grown kitten who looks just like her–Siamese with blue eyes who comes at dark and talks meowing. I feed her too. Will be turning into the crazy cat-lady soon.
.
> I suddenly felt touched thinking back of something my girlfriend noticed yesterday about the cats.
> she was watching them eat together from their first plate of food, so they were quite eager, but she said the bigger cat from time to time removed his (big) head a bit to let the smaller brother eat.
> thinking back of that I felt unexpectedly close to tears.
> thinking about why I guess it is the simple niceness, not necessary to obtain anything at all, just caring kindness as a natural behavior..
> we can learn so much from our animals.
> why do I still start feeling teary?
> maybe I longed for that kind of emotional generosity and attentfulness as a child, wanted it to be like that between all my family members, no fear, no pain, gentleness and generous caring..
> feel the loneliness now of not having gotten my needs met, back then, and now.
> still cherish the richness of those two furry miracles in my life.
> finally crying.
> kindness seems to become an oldfashioned word, one rarely runs into these days.
> courteousness is also one I like, which makes me reflect on the art of giving, and how the exercise at the retreats which at the start felt phony and pointless to me, the exercise to give someone something, has proven very useful for me on hindsight.
> now I find pleasure in trying to find gifts for family and friends that they will really like, and it feels actually better to give than to receive!
> boy, it feels also good to be able to talk about simple but sensitive stuff here..
> Jo, Leslie, Linda, Sandy,Vicky, Sylvia, and not to forget Fiona and Irena, hope to hear from you more again here now!
> and of course all the guys, smiley, that goes without saying!
> oh yes, sorry and Crystal, and I have a feeling I am forgetting another female blogger, sorry, memory starts aging slightly..
> M
> Larry,
> for some reason your words about feeling frozen with fear for Patricks return in a month keep lingering in my mind..
> what are you most afraid of? sounds like something old is triggered there.
> it would be a shame if it would hold you back from writing here.
> M
I’m not frozen with fear Margaret. It’s more like I remain braced for his return and the inevitable ugliness and vitriol that he spews as a way to get attention here. It’s so ugly that I’m shocked by the realization and feeling about the unhealthy warped ideation that is out there driven by unconscious pain. I used to just think I could avoid weird people and they didn’t bother me, but now instead I feel alone, vulnerable, and subdued by the realization of the crazy thinking that is out there.
I guess I’m feeling very alone, feeling a chill in my soul that I recognize from when I was little, a freeze inside that cuts me off from everyone, that even when I was little felt like I could never escape from but I didn’t want to know it.
I’m on 4 day work weeks now. I don’t work on Fridays. The extra free time is unnerving. I fill it well though. Yesterday morning I caught up with some meaningful emails. I had a lunch meeting with a woman friend who is giving me leadership and support in the carrying out of a butterfly garden project I volunteered to coordinate at church. We spent most of the lunch connecting and talking about our lives rather than about the project. In the afternoon I had an appointment with a naturopathic doctor and had a meaningful and informative talk with her about personal health issues. In the evening I went to dinner with about 25 people from a singles social group. But at home late in the evening, there remained a nagging, cancerous emptiness in my soul that I recognize from childhood, draining my life of joy and meaning, that feels like my prison. I feel alone. I need connection with someone but feel I myself am somehow preventing it. I think as a kid I somehow had that sickening realization I was being driven to making myself into an island, but couldn’t let myself know.
It’s been weeks since I had a cry. This morning I cried for the connection that Noreen and I had. I never before had such a connection with anyone. I cried being back there knowing she was going to die, knowing I would lose her and be alone again like I’d always been. I cried in appreciation for the bond of sorts that I do have with my youngest brother, who is 11 years younger than me, who is the person in my family who I most feel myself with. I cried imagining being with him and feeling allowed to be myself, cried feeling safe to be honestly who I am and feeling very very alone and hurting being alone, cut off from people because of childhood emotional injury.
The aloneness and hurt has always been in me. It’s because the connection with my parent’s was impossible. It’s because their ideation, their consciousness, was too strange, too distant. It hurt to know that I couldn’t trust them with my feelings and who I am. But I couldn’t know and I couldn’t hurt, so I kept myself to myself. I built my prison that kept me safe, and alone, unknowingly, and apart from everyone.
It shocks me that Patrick is so unreachable and so corrosive on human connection. I guess I’m in shock maybe with realization how frozen I’ve been much of my life because of lack of healthy nurturing human connection very early on.
Patrick hurts people. It’s hard to open up here, and have exchanges with you where you open up to me, where we may create and environment of openness, vulnerability and trust, knowing he will come rampaging through and bombard people with ugliness and hate, because if he can’t get what we have then he wants to destroy what we have.
I hear that Larry. Feelings are so delicate that they need a safe place to flower and repair. When we’ve been abused by thoughtless actions and lack of care we are more vulnerable too. I know when my mom was so controlling and disrespecting of me in her later years I felt like the women in shelters who husbands had mistreated them. And we who are mistreated are fair game for predators, those who wish to continue the hurting.
Is it too much to want to heal in a safe place; don’t think so.
Larry: you are so expressive and your post really, really touched me … in particular one line ” I need connection with someone but feel I myself am somehow preventing it.”
I felt, because I have met you, that I wanted to somehow help. I have no idea how I could do that, but there was the urge to offer it. I wondered in me where that one comes from; and yet I ‘kind of know’ that I am wanting to help the little me. OR, maybe there is this inside me, since I got a lot more than some, a sense that I somehow don’t deserve it. That I know for sure comes from my father who was for ever saying, suggesting, intimating that I (we his kids), didn’t deserve it, because he never got it either.
I can’t get that line of your out of my mind:- ” I need connection with someone but feel I myself am somehow preventing it.” It’s not like you don’t ‘get out there’ cos you do.
The Partick thing ….. Maybe because I did spend a great deal of time working with and for him … is really sad. Sad for him that he’s so out of touch with his his own deep childhood sadness, and only knows how to avoid it by the way he reacts. He’s not the only one reacting that way, as I see it. There are many, and that’s another load of sadness.
I did yesterday have one great moment of joy. The Serbian guy I’ve been emailing and who’s been able to get into feelings on his own, that I met through Art’s blog. told me just how much better his life is now that he’s able to get into his own deep feelings. It gave me such great joy and encouragement. I would love to put his email on the blog, but I must get his permission first.
Jack
Jack you and I argued a lot the first year or two I was on the blog, until we understood each other and finally met in person. Despite the initial arguing, more and more I felt you were at the core a decent person. I want you to know that you have helped me. I get it too that in some sense you are wanting to help the little you. You do deserve it.
I notice you opening up on the blog more and more over the years, sometimes dropping the cantankerous intellectual front and revealing a good soul.
Larry: It’s interesting to know how I come across to others both in the past as well as the present. What you just said made me feel real good. Thanks Larry.
I hope you are able to get some really good moments for yourself as you too deserve them. Boy, you’ve certainly done the ground work.
Jack
I have to say that the recent discussion here instigated by Patrick did have it’s benefits for me.
I do feel the need to speak out when I hear someone promoting something so wrong right in
front of me, and to make my position known. It goes beyond that though.
When I continued with the effort to convince him, it becomes something else. It’s as if
in convincing him then he would “see” me, the real me. It’s the same kind of struggle
I would engage with my parents who didn’t see me. I was stuck with them, and can be drawn in
to a similar struggle with other people. Also, in a group when someone is getting a lot attention,
and I’m not getting any, then I also feel triggered, and have to say something.
Maybe most people were tuning out of the discussion here, but that’s not what I was imagining.
Sorry I’m such a mess!
This led to some memories of my sister getting attention from my mother, about school homework. I wanted some of that kind of attention too, but was didn’t have any homework, as I was not yet in school. I just don’t remember ever getting positive attention from my mother.
Incidents happen, as happened here on the blog with Patrick, which bring up feelings for
me and I can put that to good use. But Patrick isn’t doing the same, so I certainly wouldn’t
want him to go on and on here, since that isn’t the purpose of the blog, is it? I already
got to me feeling around this and am glad he left the group for a while.
Phil
Phil, I’m reacting to your apology for being such a mess. I’m not sure what to say about it, but I can’t get it out of my mind… I think I want to say something like why are you apologizing, aren’t we all messes? And you’re not hurting anyone with it, so give yourself a break. Sandy.
> Larry,
> those sound like awful feelings you have to deal with. difficult too to process. I admire how despite that you manage to live your life at the fullest, and go out and socialize so much.
> way to go!
> Sylvia,
> a tough cookie, or two tough cookies, but they do still charm don’t they? and these sound specially pretty and with a lot of personality.
> I have always been curious a about Siamese, have never known one ‘personally’, but heard they indeed talk a lot.
> take care, haha, you crazy cat woman, M
My friend Nenad from Belgrade, Serbia has given me permission to post his email to me, on this blog.
so here it is in full … unedited.
“Hi Dear Jack, How are you going?
I am so, so excited to tell you, but MAYBE I am starting to feel better, and to say that all of my primal work is paid off, and is paying off. I do less and less my frightening ticks-Screaming, almost nothing, yes it is the truth that I increased my dosage of dopamine blocker medication, but it is minimally dosage. And that is the reason why I am telling you-MAYBE- I am starting to feel better: my hands are not sweating anymore(and long time ago I realized that my hands were sweating because of hormone of stress, cortisol, when I am in stress my hands were sweating more), I can hold back my ticks for bigger period of time, I have more energy(not enough, but more than earlier), I am less shy, less afraid of people, more confidant, I started to have ambitions, and I started to plan my life and I love my life, I have desire to have a girlfriend, to be independent from my parents and brother financially, to finish and learn my shoe making lessons, and to open my own store of my shoes. … I am more involved with people, earlier I was avoiding them, and now, IMAGINE, I love to meet people, new people….All of this is not coincidentally., I put a lot of effort to overcome obstacles. I can easily cry, but not uncontrollably. I started to see one girl, I am not in love with her, but I like her, and who knows what time will emerge as new. We, even, had a conversation to live together. I think my life is getting better, and I am happy. I could not go to learn lessons from shoe repairing and shoe making, without your help, so Great Thanks to You.
Also, I have much more space to improve even more my life and health, and it is terrible when I know that I missed my early years.
Sorry Jack, I cannot write each day, it is too much for me because of foreign language, and i was busy some of the time. Your friend, Nenad”
From Jack
I finally got caught up here on what’s happened over the last couple of weeks. Larry, I was very impressed with a couple of your comments to Patrick, I thought they were on target and quite wise, and no surprise, he didn’t respond in a straight way, as he didn’t even “get” what you said. He just comes across as more insane almost with every successive post. There has even been a decay in coherence, in the way he attempts to express his views. Some disintegration. Anyway, thanks for persevering and writing as thoughtfully as you did.
Thanks for you response Vicki. I’m glad you got caught up. Your life must be busy. And I’m glad you found the best dog in the world and she found you. 🙂
> Sandy,
> thanks, you are right, it is important and actually very nice to write about the joy of feeling love..
> how are things going for you?
> and Vicky, nice to hear you still have that little dog around, and sounds like you love it dearly, smiley! it is incredible how much they brighten up life, isn’t it?
>
> Jack, it sounds like you helped your friend a lot there, it was nice to read how well he seems to be doing.
>
> and Phil, I agree with Sandy, you have nothing at all to apologize for, you are such a nice person, and have indeed a lot to say.
> you are a great guy.
> M
Thanks Sandy and Margaret, More on this came up for me last night. In addition to what I’ve already said; it was my fatherwho would never talk to me in a straight way; I would have to listen to hisB S on all kinds of subjects, none of it having to do him, me, or our lives.I’m still waiting for that straight conversation which never came.I should stop listening to all the B S and stop wasting my time. Phil
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:41:33 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sounds like you’ve learned a lot thanks to Patrick.
> Phil,
> ‘B’s’? like in ‘bullshittters ?
> M
Margaret, yes, that’s what I’m talking about.Phil
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:25:59 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> just had my mom on the phone, I called her to remind her of the meals she should have in the fridge, but she ate them already seemingly, or could not find them.
> she sounded a bit down so I tried to cheer her up, as she things she sees her boyfriend less now for not having her car anymore, so I told her once more that is not the case as he comes to her a couple of times a week.
> I also told her to try not to get too much into negative thoughts like that if possible, as sometimes he comes by and she forgets he has been there, but she reacted with affirmative words but a plaintive kind of doubtful sound as to say yeah yeah, I don’t believe you.
> that triggers me but a bit later on I got triggered even more by that plaintive tone of voice while saying things are ok, and even her getting a bit cross and saying but things are ok you know, I don’t coomplain do I? just after she did actually complain..
> she would have more company at the nursing home but does not want to go there, so it is her choice to stay in her house, which I ointed out, that there are other options, but if she chooses for her house she is bound to be more on her own.
> it is something about that tome of voice, I feel dumped on or something, it makes me angry, frustrated, it must resonate with old patterns as I feel ‘get a hold of yourself’, ‘be grown up’, ‘take care of yourself’,don’t complain about your own choices, don’t dump it on me, don’t make me feel bad, or responsible or whatever, or guilty for now feeling angry..
>
> be strong!!!
> be an adult!!! don’t put this on my shoulders!!
> some forbidden words cross my mind like ‘I hate you!!’ I hate you! don’t make me feel this way!!!!
> think about me!!!
> ha, it feels good to let some of it out, even just like this!
> M
Margaret,That sounds so difficult to have to deal with everyday.Phil Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:28:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Phil,
> some days I actually end up feeling good after a call, and some days I end up clenching my teeth.. try not to work it out on her, it would not help and I would end up feeling worse.
>
> good you still got to more feelings yesterday ..
> did you get those pumpkins?
> M
Margaret, Yes I got four nice pumpkins which we will carve, fresh apples,and apple cider from a nearby farm. It was a nice day yesterday but cool. We also did some cleaning up outside. There was frost here last night, I believefor the first time this season.I needed an electric blanket for my car/primal box.Phil
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:55:37 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I know that those of you up there near the North Pole in Canada won’t be
impressed by my report on frost, and I apologize about that.
Phil
No problem Phil. I’m nice and cozy up here in my igloo thanks.:)
I’m glad to hear you’re staying warm Larry:)Phil
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:38:49 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> haha, Phil, that is one insincere apology!
> we are coming close to frost at night here as well, brrr!
> but cosy indoors then..
> M
Larry:
I am having a delayed response to what you wrote to me on October 12th when we talked about who is being a parasite to others. Yes, it was a pseudo-intellectual discussion and you said:
“Just responding with my opinion because I like you and I have some time today. But I don’t see how this goes anywhere.”
Your response bothered me slightly at the time, yet I couldn’t put a response into words until today: “OK, Larry, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to transport you to a magical fairy feeling place every time we talk. I will try to do better next time, then.”
The reason I didn’t see it going anywhere UG is because you never follow through on a discussion. You always eventually beg off, claiming you are running out of energy and you need to conserve it for more important other matters you are working on, and you leave.
I have to admit that is interesting because I’ve heard almost the same sort of critical examination of this apparent modus operandi of mine from Gretchen, as well. I am going to go figure out some other fun things to do; I will talk to you later, then!
“Pancake People” (quote below not my own; source provided upon request)
“Children born in the early 21st century will likely never know a world without the Internet, cable television, online museums, and other forms of instant intellectual gratification. The average high school student in any developed nation has access to more information than some of the greatest minds in history, such as Socrates or Da Vinci, ever had in their lifetimes. Some critics of this phenomenon fear that instantaneous access to all of this information has the potential to overload or overwhelm users, however. Instead of delving deeper into one particular discipline, many people are now dabbling on the surface of many interests and subjects of study at the same time. Author Richard Foreman described those who have spread themselves thinly across a wide spectrum of subjects as pancake people.
For many generations, scholars and artists tended to concentrate their energy on one particular subject or discipline. For William Shakespeare, that interest was literature; for Mozart, it was musical composition; and for Newton, physics. Visual artists were not expected to understand higher mathematics, nor were philosophers expected to study engineering. Without widespread access to libraries or the ability to disseminate their latest creations to the rest of the world instantly, many people toiled in relative obscurity to plumb the depths of their chosen vocations or subjects of interest.
With the development of the Internet and other sources of information that can be accessed quickly and easily, many people strive to gain at least a working knowledge of many different subjects. So-called pancake people no longer concentrate their energies on one area of interest, but instead choose to spread themselves thinly over a large area. As a result, a new generation have essentially become the proverbial jacks of all trades, but masters of none. A linguist from the 18th may have studied Spanish or French until he or she could translate even the most complex literary works composed in those languages, but modern pancake people only learn enough of the language to navigate as a tourist. As long as the information necessary to perform a task or create a new work is literally at a person’s fingertips, there is always the risk of that person losing some intellectual curiosity.
The term “pancake people” is largely seen as a negative commentary on the current age of instantaneous information. The ability to access even the most obscure information in a matter of seconds may be seen as a positive social development on one level, but it can also cause some people to become less inclined to delve more deeply into one particular subject of interest. As a result, a generation of overloaded pancake people may become more obsessed with the more surface aspects of culture and less interested in the larger arc of human history.”
Signifying what???? Before paper and printing presses it was all done by scribes.
Live with the present for what it worth, and the only other thing you need to know is how you feel.
So!!!! what the feeling????
Jack
Don’t you remember what Larry said to you, Jack? How gratifying it was for him to see that you’re dropping your cantankerous intellectual front and revealing a good soul? It’s disappointing to see you no longer maintaining the genuine qualities observed in you by your fellow advanced Primal patients so quickly.
Geeeeeeezzzzzussssss: You piss me off no end. In all my “cantankerous intellectual front” I’ve rarely encountered, on a ‘feeling blog’, anyone so intent on avoiding their own feelings and coming across, to me, as such a conceited mother fucker as you. I’m so pissed. I begin to wonder if there a feeling in your body and wonder why the fuck you ever came to do Primal Therapy and seemingly avoid it’s very essence.
Piss off.. Jack
Hi Jack. Maybe Guru is on his way to a feeling. He mentioned Gretchen’s assessment agreeing with Larry’s. And the recognition of Pancake people also reveals something of an admission of things not quite right.
I am reminded of Janov’s in their tapes that a therapist does not always know where the client is going and cannot presume to, but has to wait until they are ready to bring it up or out when they feel safe and comfortable enough.
Just my sense of things.
Sylvia: I don’t see, but maybe I am going blind, Guru on his way to a feeling. I feel the analogy to “pancake people” is not the most revealing. I feel ones assessment of what another is … says more about the person making the assessment; than those they are describing. Just me though.
I think your assessment of Janov is correct. I too feel that it is the patient who eventually knows her/himself best. That, to me, separates Primal for all other psychotherapies.
Jack
UG, Do your know any pancake people? My guess is they are a littledry, just lacking some maple syrup. Sorry I had to say that. People still go to college and study in their chosen fields. If they keep going with studiesthey will find a small niche to specialize in and because ofthe amount of knowledge those niches get smaller and smaller. If anything, In my opinion there is more specializationand there are maybe fewer people who see the big picture.Phil
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 03:11:18 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Maybe you’re right, Phil. As society becomes more complex, individuals have to take on increasingly specialized roles to keep the entire machinery running smoothly. I still think pancake people are very unlikely to be fired from their jobs because they know how to butter up their bosses, *badum-CHING*
UG, Not the kind of boss I’d want to work for; too slick.Phil
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:39:10 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Jack,
> I have a feeling you are projecting on guru.
> actually you guys seem to have things in common from my point of view, both intellectual and smart, computer programmers, well, the rest to be filled in..
> when I have such a reaction to someone that seems to come up so strongly and partially out of the blue, it is usually because that someone reminds me of myself with some quality or behaviour I don’t like (to look at) in myself..
> or I think they are like that, as I say, there is a lot of projecting going on and often when I get to the reality of things more I find out stuff about myself and them and irritation vanishes.
> your anger towards him seems disproportionate so maybe you should take some time and look at this for yourself?
>
> partially selfish, smiley, want to avoid another long round of mutual accusations and insults,this time with one other cast.
> follow your own rules and own your feeling, and who does he remind you of in your perception ?
> M
Margaret: You are probably right about me projecting. However, in my own defense I don’t feel there is anything unduly wrong about expressing my anger. But then that’s perhaps just my defense. I agree, on reflection, he comes across sopmewhat like my father. He, (my father), like my Jimbo, was always prone to react with “Oh my god”: whenever I was hurting or frightened. Like:- it was a bigger problem for him than what was taking place with me.
If you meant Margaret that it sholuld have been sufficient for me to have just said “you piss me off” and then left it at that, perhaps? I’ll give that some thought.
Hopefully that’s my meger attempt to follow my own rules.
Jack
> Jack, that is a fine reply, thanks.
> and there are many roads to Rome, as long as you are so open to looking at yourself and your motives I see no problem!
> M
> finally managed to go tango dancing again!
> it was nice, my old dance partner was with me and it was organized by our former dance teacher, so we knew several people there and the mmusic was very varied, not only the classical oldfashioned tango but also the modern one.
> so it felt good to be there, and also good to be back home now..
> injured my ribs a little, my dance partner tried to lift me onto his hip a few times, but made a slight mistake so he squeezed my ribs a little too tightly during the lift, smiley, and now it is a bit sore.
> but that’s ok, goes with the trying of ‘spectacular’ moves, which I like..
> saved one of my cats too this morning, trying to watch the birds he had messed around with a curtain and one stitching thread got loose, and the lop got caught in his mouth and around his neck, just as well I pay so much attention to them I noticed it in time and could free him, and comfort him and them cut off the loose piece of thread.
> saved my former cat a few times too, they are so curious and adventurous they tend to end up in tricky situations occasionally..
> now they acted as if they were starving when I came home, despite their bowls being still half full with t
> dry crunchies and lenty of water next to it..
> but hey, a h
> ggod show provides an immediate response of yummie canned food, or sometimes even freshly cooked chicken, haha, and they k
> are splendid actors as all cats..
> so now come down from all the dancing adrenaline and start to relax, haaaaa…
> M
Having some nice family time in France………🌻🇫🇷🌿🍂😉
C’est bonne!
It’s nice to hear about nice things happening in people’s lives, too, on the blog.
Living alone, in recent months hit by the mysterious health ailment polymyalgia rheumatica, I can easily start to feel fragile and negative about my life. Nothing new. I’ve been fighting the negativity all my life. But living alone and getting older, the negativity can come more readily.
And then I get nice surprises that renew my hope in life.
I’m there occasionally, but don’t spend much of my work time at the research farm. Mostly I’m in the lab or in the field. The guys at the farm tend to be a little rougher crowd, their conversation a little more loud and coarse and crude. Years ago when I first started working, I tended to avoid them. I’m quiet anyway. But over the years I got to know the guys and they are good fellas.
I was out there last week, cleaning seed, kind of keeping to myself. I was surprised how during a break, one of them came to talk to me about our Canadian election, and then more fellas joined him, surrounded me and there was lively discussion about the election and then about the Blue Jays and Kansas City baseball games. I participated in the discussion and they consciously included me, wanting to hear from me. I felt very included, very good, and thought how much I used to keep myself an outsider of these kind of social groupings. The same thing happened at lunch. I sat at a table expecting to be a side show to the conversation, but instead guys sat down beside me and across from me talking directly to me, making me a central part of the discussion. I felt so included. I don’t know what it is. I never before had so much of this feeling of being an included important part of a group.
I had a hard time making myself go to dance class last night after supper. I felt too tired and negative. I went. The ladies were enjoyable to be with, dance with and talk to. They were friendly and supportive. The evening was fun. I went home feeling positive and light hearted. It is so much healthier to get out and be with good people than to stay at home tired and alone.
Tonight was dance practice. Tired and alone at home, I wondered whether I’d make myself go to the practice, my first one of the season. I wondered whether I dare risk having two good evenings in a row. Doubtful, I went. Once there, as I’m sitting down changing into my dance floor shoes, as other couples and good dancers keep arriving I think to myself, OK you’re not a good dancer but just try to make yourself stay for some practice and just try to enjoy it some. Then this woman arrives who I’ve never seen before in any workshops or dances. I’m immediately attracted to her. It’s an unconscious all senses brought to life kind of feeling, focused on her for the second or two she arrives and then is gone. She beams me an easy natural warm smile as she walks by. I smile back friendly yet in awe of her. I don’t dare to maintain eye contact for too long. A woman like her has a dance/life partner for sure I think to myself, or a choice from among many. Forget about even thinking of dancing with her I think to myself. I’m not a good enough, comfortable enough, confident enough dancer anyway for someone like her to want to dance with me.
I step into the dance room. Music is playing. People are dancing. A couple of ladies are sitting alone, one much younger than me, one older. They glance my way a few times. I sense they are waiting me to ask them to dance, trying to look receptive. I’ve not done this since Spring. I wait for a while, building my composure, wondering which woman to ask. I know what both of them dance like. I know the younger one is a much better dancer and will be much more fun to dance with. I feel though like I should ask the older lady first. Some guy approaches and asks the younger one, I ask the other one. Finally I’m on the dance floor, getting the feel of it, enjoying myself and the company of the person I’m with at the moment. After a couple of dances, I’m off on the side standing out a few to catch my breath and regroup.
But not for long, A nice lady a bit younger than me approaches me to dance, saying no young fellas are allowed to stand on the side alone. So we are on the dance floor for a couple. She is a nice lady, a nice conversationalist, and a nice dancer. Makes me feel as if I’m a good dancer. She keeps telling me I am.
Then off on the side standing out a few, catching my breath, feeling a little more confident about being there at the practice and that maybe I will have a good time, surveying the room and wondering who to get up the nerve to ask next.
At the end of a dance She peels away from her partner, walks towards and stands near me, getting a breather too. It’s the woman I was immediately attracted to when I saw Her walk in as I was changing my shoes. Do I dare ask Her to dance with me! She is so close, only a few feet away. Could I live with myself if I don’t!! So I turn towards Her and as I begin to ask Her, She takes a step toward me and asks if I’d like to join Her in this waltz. I can’t believe it. I hope that I’m not so in awe of Her that I blow it. On the dance floor, no awkwardness between us, in no time I sense She’s a wonderful dancer, an incredibly sensitive and agile follow. She tells me I am a terrific lead. Conversation is easy, or not at all but still easy, comfortable. We dance the second waltz together. I dance more aggressively, twirling in and out around the room among the others, me no longer worried that I will step into or bump into her. She reads me and mirrors my moves effortIessly. We float across the floor. I tell her she is an amazing follow. She laughs aww with a pleased, sensitive, female voice. I feel young and healthy, alive, at ease, on top of life. I could dance with Her all night. It feels like She would do the same with me. We should mingle though, and the practice only lasts an hour. I don’t want to overstay my welcome with Her, but she doesn’t seem to be tiring of me. We decide to each dance with others.
I dance and talk with other ladies. The hour is over soon. I didn’t catch Her eye again. I didn’t see Her leave. I hope She’s at the next practice. I hope I go to it. I hope I see Her again at some dance or practice or workshop. I have to find out more about Her, even if all I ever end up with is just dancing with Her sometimes. On first impression, She seems perfect in every way. I tell myself She is way to good for me, it was just a dance. But I have to go where my feelings say to. I have to find out more about Her.
To think I almost closed the door and didn’t go out this evening.
Larry: Wow!!! just keep at it. It’s very inspiring to read you. I can only wish something turns out good for you. Man; you’ve waited long enough, and, as I’ve said before:- You’ve sure done your home work.
Jack
Hi Larry
Hang in there Man. You are on the right track. You are the new Romeo in your town. You have the looks. Go man , go.
Tom
Larry, I’m glad you went out dancing last night and thatthings went so well. I hope you can find out more about the lady youmentioned.Phil Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 03:07:05 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
John Lennon – Well Well Well. I listened to it a thousand times, sometimes it got me into a feeling. What it must have been like to have been in group and hearing John Lennon wailing off in a corner. That was way before my time in therapy.I really liked that about big group, other people crying or just hearing what they were saying to their therapist, and starting to cry myself. I guess that is probably the same as small group. Somewhat.
Janov writes that his professional life changed in a single day in 1967 with the discovery of what he calls Primal Pain. During a therapy session, Janov heard what he describes as, “an eerie scream welling up from the depths of a young man lying on the floor”. EUREKA. LIGHT BULB? WOWEE!
Eagles – Dirty Laundry 1080p LIVE. Not one of my favorite songs but watching the video makes me sad. Seeing the women dancing to the beat, and seeing the older-now Eagles play (still with energy), this makes me sad, i feel like i missed out, I never got into the Eagles much since i thought some of their hits were misogynistic, although I did like Joe Walsh, and now I read about him, and I feel a loss that i never got into these guys that much. Don’t know what I am saying. Wish I could say this in group or session and cry. Too tired to cry tonight. Driving Z to Ventura tomorrow morning so she can keep her minimal job. Not trying to say that meanly, just too tired to think of a non-mean word. I only listen to music videos when she is not here, she is out doing something somewhere, now it sounds like she is home.
63 and the memories of all my painful experiences on this planet just keep pushing up out of my soul into my consciousness and torturing me to no end. Didn’t visit dying grandmother in the horrible old folks home enough. guilt guilt guilt
Guilt is the holding back of a feeling. I wonder what it is.
> Jo, nice to hear you are having a good time.
> Larry, that was very catching to read, specially as I know the situation so well but then as being one of the women!
> it is certainly inspiring and I am glad I just could bring myself to go again yesterday..
> hope to be able to do it more often again.
> I know the feeling of meeting someone attractive and how it opens up a world of possibilities. even if nothing happens afterwards, like they don’t show up or whatever, it still leaves a feeling at least the possibility of meeting someone you instantly feel attracted to exists, and maybe some day it might even be mutual..
> in the meantime it is also just very nice and healing to be with friendly people and having a good time together, holding them and being held and for a while turning life into a graceful movement with a nice soundtrack..
>
> Ottto, the the question crossed my mind a few times already whether you and your wife still have some good times or not?
> is it all bad or is there still something good there as well?
> M
“…very nice and healing to be with friendly people and having a good time together, holding them and being held and for a while turning life into a graceful movement with a nice soundtrack.” That is a really good description Margaret of why dancing is a psychically and physically healthy activity.
To it I would also add it is an excellent way to stir up your deepest insecurities that need to be overcome if you are to have fun. It’s taken me 10 years of classes to get to this point. Along the way a lot of insecurities flowed under the bridge as I cried them out, though often I just ran away and didn’t go to a dance.
Overall though, ballroom dance has been an important activity that helps the long dark winter months pass more quickly, that arrests a downward spiral that can grow from social isolation, that helps me to have a positive mental outlook in going forward with life.
I hope you dance more often Margaret.
Larry, that’s such a good narrative of your latest experience.. I was reading away – almost as though I was watching a ❤️ movie- and it was such a surprise that something like this happened to you, that I thought you were going to say. .. “And then I woke up” !!!!!…. ( that’s probably my ‘catastrophic thinking’ popping up ) !!💥
Good luck and please keep us posted! 😉
With Larry’s dancing and Otto’s reminiscing about the 70’s, I was left with no choice but to post this old feel-good classic (Abba “Dancing Queen”). The video provided some secondary chuckles now that Jack’s mad at me. I noticed this song was released during the same year as the movie “Star Wars” (1976); is that Luke Skywalker playing the guitar?
Keep on chuckling cos they’re hard to come by.
At least I served one good deed.
Jack
Haven’t been here in for many years, because it’s always been so exhausting to find a way through theses billions of words from mostly the same persons, but now that I feel abandoned by Barry, I had a need to come back, like walking the streets an ex-lover lived in: to feel some closeness.
So I rushed more or less mindless through endless pages of comments, thoughts, and other disappointments rather than my own and stumbled over this cruel Holocaust discussion. I remember you Patrick, for I worked for Gentle Giant for some months in the late 80s, and I also remember your disappointment in PT, something I partly shared at that time (for I just started and waited for the magic moment).
However, the validity of PT is not the topic of this post (disappointment should be, Pat, right?), but this stupid ‘Jewish’ discussion. I’m a German, who was born a decade after the war and got socialized in the intersection between denial, guilt, blaming others (for example the dead themselves) and coping. For me there is no doubt whatsoever that this mass murdering happened – like uncountable others since then and before. We share this planet with fuckheads and psychopaths, that’s a reality, but by shutting up and denying brutality we will for sure never get rid of them. Besides: For you it seems the reason to deny the Holocaust is the present of truth (correct me, if I’m wrong). But as much as I understand this personal urge and accept it as a positive element I don’t see any other objective reasons. Only hate, cold hearted stupidity and cold blooded pragmatism. In fact, the real danger I see in publicly promoting the idea of denying the craziness and sickness of the past is in preparing the homecoming of it.
Ulrich: If I remember you rightly you eventually went off to Florida and you had a boat. If you are the guy I’m thinking of, then we did for a time buddy over the phone. I feel you made a persuasive argument against the ‘holocaust deniers’
I’m sorry you feel abandoned by Barry, but it’s great that you at least are responding to this blog. I personally, find it very therapeutic in it’s own way and keeps me on my feeling toes and less head tripping, as t’were.
Just writing about the stuff that is going on with me is so revealing and keeps me in the ‘feeling zone’
Hope you will be able to sum up enough courage and try it out. Not that difficult once I/we step into the water.
Take care Unrich and will look forwards to your posts.
Jack
Sry, Jack, neither had a boat nor went to Florida – though I’d liken a fate like that 😉 Thanks for your nice invite to keep up with postings, but as time goes by and working days rule, I mostly won’t have the time to stay updated. But, of course, I will stay connected in a way or another. I already did …
Ulrich: ok, no matter. I think Margaret’s idea about receiving comments by email by clicking the “notify me of new comments via email button” under the comment frame, after making the comment, is the best way …. saves all that plowing through strings of comments.
It’s understandable when first coming onto the blog to go through at least the bottom of the list. Prior threads (as they are called) are perhaps now redundant … unless you’d like to revive one or another.
Jack
I’m surprised that Barry ‘abandoned’ you.
Well, actually I feel abandoned, left alone, mistreated. Guess it’s a therapeutic thing 😉 He did it twice before, and when the time comes I will talk to him about it. Sry, if I frightened anybody, that wasn’t my intention. I don’t think, Barry wouldn’t do such a thing in reality without a proper serious reason.
Ulrich: That’s what so compelling about this therapy. Yes we can tell anyone, especially a therapist what we feel about them. that the whole essence of it. Barry may or may not respond, but I doubt he’ll be ‘defensive’ about it.
Jack
hhm, I guess I have to be more specific here since I brought up the topic and might have hurt Barry’s feelings and/or frightened somebody, who’s not having a stable relationship to him (yet). I feel abandoned for some different reasons, but I shouldn’t have mentioned Barry’s name in this respect. The feeling was triggered by him, that’s true, three different times in our long relationship by accident or on purpose, but is independent from the person Barry. I’m sorry, I thought I did point that out, but obviously not clearly enough as a PM showed. I came to this blog, because of that feeling (which is aiming at me, not at Barry), but posted, because of the crazy mass murdering discussion (which was aiming at Patrick).
Ulrich – I am under a self imposed ‘ban’ here until the middle of November but I don’t want to be ‘rude’ and not answer you. Also my computer is on the fritz until Monday at the earliest so that’s another reason I can’t write now. I am sending this from the Library which have maybe the slowest computers in the whole world it feels.
But I will only say for now I see things very differently to you. But I like the way you put it you seem sincere and respectful if ‘wrong’ as I see it. I wonder where you live…….because if it is in Germany you better be careful and really you do not have a choice in what you say and think. If you have any doubt about that read the career of Germar Rudolp who is German and lived in Germany. You will see pretty clearly you do not have a choice in the matter that is if you want to stay out of prison. Right there might be a good place to try to assess what is really going on. Now back to my ‘ban’
Yeah, I’m a German and live in Germany. Germar Rudolp unfortunately also (but lives in the USA). As a background for Jack, Larry and the others: Rudolp had been sentenced in Germany to a bit more than 2 years for publicly denying the Holocaust, guess around 2005 (Wikipedia should know). Her published some ‘scientific’ books about the topic, if I remember correctly. (Somehow people in general seem to have a very strong need to cover up lies and assumptions with ‘scientific proof’ as if a bunch of words proove anything else than ‘brainwashing is possible’. But, hey there, see the bright side: If you master words, you can produce any truth you want.)
And, yes, in Germany it’s not allowed to promote Nazi ideology or support it. In the years after the war this has changed from a a conviction to a more ‘politically correct’ law, but if you ask me a law that makes sense. Don’t get me wrong, like Gretchen above I do believe it’s overly important people will have the possibility to express themselves, as fucked up there opinion as it seems to me, because of you listen long enough, it’s always pain at the bottom – but there comes a certain point in time, when it gets dangerous for others and should be stopped.
> hi Ulrich,
> how come yu feel abandoned by Barry?
>
> I agree with there being a lot of psychopaths and fuckheads around, but also worrying is the human tendency to displace responsibility as soon as some ‘authority’ figure tells us to do something.
> remember that experiment with students and a socalled professor in a socalled study of learning, who had to give increasing electroshocks to a fellow student every time he gave a wrong or no answer to a test question..
> Milgram’s experiment but I am not sure, might have been someone else.
> sad thing is if i remember well more than 60 percent of every group of participants went all the way up to the possibly lethal voltage that increased with every misssed answer, despite the so called victim, an actor really luckily, was screaming and yelling to stop and even pretennding to have passed out. still participants continued to push the button to give a shock upon being told by the supervisor it was important for the experiment they did..
> this test has been repeated many times and always with a similar outcome.
> I just obeyed orders is sadly a very common excuse, which most of us would have a strong tendency to apply under stressful circumstances or when not obeying has consequences..
> this test was originally designed to prove it does not take what is regarded as monsters to participate in such tragic events instead of bringing ip the courage to refuse..
> i see similar emotional reactions now sometimes towards the refugees who sometimes are attacked simply for being there by some..
> it takes a strong mind to stick to what is right, and most of us can easily become cowards under certain circumstances, sadly enough..
> glad you posted here, if the hassle is too big to scroll through the lot here, switch on the button to have the comments sent to you by mail, saves a lot of scrolling up and down I think..
> easy to delete as well, smiley
>
> M
Margaret, appreciate you mentioned Stanley Milgram’s ecperiments here and in the past I actually thought quite some times about what would have happen to me if I grew up under different circumstances (society wise), as a gear in the Nazi empire for example. To be honest, I don’t see myself as a good guy: I’m selfish, scroogie and cowardly also. Sometimes I’m forced to make a stand, but the respective outcome isn’t necessarely who I am deep down.
This reminds me of a documentary I saw some times ago about some Nicaraguan divers, who relie on defect equipment to make a living. They got help from a young American and to make it short: At the end of the docu I had to realize that this young man brought more sense into his comparatively shorter life than I did in many decades more. So, at times I feel very sad about myself, because I realize I’m just a hamster and working bee, generating wealth for a few already wealthy people, but am to lazy and cowardly to turn the car around …
From 11 am to 6:30 pm today were 5 ballroom dance workshops, about an hour and a half each. I went to 3 of them, until 5 pm. I learned new patterns. I was with nice people. But it was a lonely day. And She didn’t attend. Good thing. I was in an empty, hurting, lonely no fun space, the kind where it’s hard to face the world and I want to withdraw.
At home in the evening I cried. Life can turn so ugly. Life can end, too soon, the departed leaving survivors with miles deep hurt and grief. A child can be doomed to being alone, cared for but unseen, unloved, for all of life. I am alone. I hurt.
I’ve been hiding from more hurt than I can bear. I have more hurt in me than life. I can only plod on,one foot in front of the other, one at a time. I hurt too much! How could anyone want me!
She is a phantom of what could be, what in a parallel universe might be, but not for me in this one. I am unwantable.
Hi Larry
Not to take anything away from your feelings, but have you thought perhaps your Lady friend may feel unwanted also? She could’ve also gone home feeling unwanted. Unwanted by you. I am exaggerating a little bit here, but you know what I mean.
Perhaps you may consider trying to contact her and see where it may lead. See her response.
I know, it is tough, it is a tough task. But I’ll barrack for you. And if she needs a referral about you, point her towards me.
Tom
The alone empty worthless feelings are coming up anyway Tom. The possibility of Her accelerates and intensifies them, which is a good thing because I need to deal with them and with the effect my past is having on me. I also think the approach of winter brings on isolation and difficult feelings to manage and wrestle with.
Right now She is mostly a figment of my imagination. If I ever see Her again, I will try to talk to Her more and test what is reality. If She shows any interest I likely will have to deal with even more severe feelings of self-doubt and worthlessness.
Larry: Sad sad and more sad. What a life, especially the beginnings of it for you. The insane cruelty inflicted on little children .,.. makes me cry.
I was lucky, but I have enough of my feelings now, from this therapy to feel someone else’ sadness.
Jack
> yesterday my brother brought our mom over to my place.
> it was nice to see her, as on the phone earlier on she had sounded confused.
> now she seemed better, and it was nice to try and give her a good time while she was there.
> I feel a bit guilty though about not letting her take a thick ancient medical encyclpedia home, full of awful odfashioned pictures and photographs from the beginnings of last century, all kind of diseases and siames twins etc.
> It was hers before but she gave it to me, and now I feared that she would damage it or lose it or whatever, as it has also loose parts in it, so I tried to refuse gently to let her take it home to ‘readmit..
> rationally it makes sense but emotionally I feel like some uptight selfish bitch somehow…
>
> but she quickly moved on and is bound to forget it but still…
> a bit later though I found her behind my piano, and that was so nice, as to our surprise she played some wellknown and happy oldfashioned tunes, improvising and clearly having a great time, showing off with a funny riddle in the end..
> it was also painful, as this is how we, as I think it also goes for my brother, love our mom most, and did as children, as behind the piano she is adorable and simply herself, a talented sensitive playful human being, at that moment not needing anything of us and therefor much easier to love..
> it hurts as she is getting old and time runs forth..
> the good thing is that when she stopped playing and said she might buy a piano again, I mentioned the home and that she could go there just to play and would be welcomed probably..
> she said she might go and live there at some point soon, as it seemed like a nice place really…
> so maybe next week I will take the encyclopedia to her and leave it there for a while, although chances are she won’t look at it, maybe she will like doing so and she has always been very generous in giving stuff away, so why not, if it can give her some pleasure.
>
> it hurts to see her getting old and frail.
>
> and I feel some kind of disgust about Patricks brief visit here to simply say he thinks he knows better about what happened in Germany than Ulrich who grew up there and is German.
> talk about arrogance.
>
> M
> Ulrich,
> yes, I know what you mean.
> as a kid, say about ten, I joined some kind of youth movement, because some friends of my class were in it.
> it turned out to be very rightwing Flemish nationalist kind of stuff, but hey, I loved to walk around with flags and yelling wahtever the others yelled until my dad found out what it was about and got me out of there and into another more neutral youth organization, in which I actually did not stay for very long..
> but as a young person it is so easy to get carried away without having a clue what it is all about, only the approvment of the leaders you look up to, and secretly had a crush on in my case counted, and the thrill of the physical exercise and adventure and even the marching, for heaven’s sake, were appealing to my young and eager spirit longing for attention and a feeling of companionship..
> glad my dad got me out of there now, but at the time I did not appreciate it so much..
> but yes, it shows how we all get formed or brainwashed to some degree by our surroundings ..
> later on I fell for the thrill of the wild seventies, feeling all those freaky longhaired dudes felt like one big family, or well, a bunch of possible lovers, smiley..
>
> a long story , too long ..
> now finally feeling I can see things in a more relative daylight,gained just a bit of wisdom, not that much but some, better late than never..
> M
This song by a talented artist about the 1200 missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada is striking a chord in me. I think it is hitting a raw nerve in me about how unsafe and harsh life is for some people.
Larry:
I can sense you’re going through a rough time right now, and I don’t want to take away from that. We can go right back to the topics at hand; I just want to post this follow-up from MSN news about Donald Trump. You and I had a talk a short while back about the highly successful being potential parasites on others, and I am going to provide this anecdotal clipping from an MSN story showing a bit of what I meant, OK? It does not mean I am a non-feeling person. Rather, it means I want the same freedom as the graffiti that was allowed to be caked onto the Institute’s walls at Pico Blvd. next to the French school back in the day:
In 1991, the Trump Taj Mahal Casino, which had opened just a year before, filed for bankruptcy. Trump had financed it with $900 million in junk bonds. Although the company—and not Trump personally—filed for bankruptcy, he unloaded his Trump Princess yacht, his Trump Shuttle airline and stakes in other businesses.
The Taj bankruptcy hit Atlantic City’s small businesses much harder. Trump already had a reputation for being a very tough negotiator with suppliers—an echo of his campaign promise to negotiate the best trade deals for America. Contractors were so accustomed to getting paid cents on the dollar that they habitually built in an extra percentage, according to one Atlantic City bankruptcy lawyer.
J. Michael Diehl, who owns Freehold Music Center, sold Trump eight Yamaha grand pianos for around $100,000. “He put out a bid for pianos about a year before the Taj opened. I won the bid. I delivered the pianos, and I waited and I waited to get paid. And finally I heard from them that I had three choices: to accept 70 percent of the bid or to wait until the casino could afford to pay the bill in full. Or I could force them into bankruptcy with everybody else and maybe get 10 cents on the dollar. I took the 70 percent, and I lost 30 percent.”
Talking to Philly.com earlier this summer, Diehl said, “I’m not going to vote for him, that’s for sure. That’s a crude way of doing business.” Representatives at Trump’s company declined to comment on Diehl’s account and did not return calls for this story.
New Jersey state Senator Jim Whelan, Atlantic City’s mayor during the Trump years, and other sources who asked not to be quoted say Trump had a bad reputation among vendors even before the bankruptcies. “The fact is, there were a lot of small contractors and vendors who got hurt, who went out of business because Trump did not pay contracts on time,” he says.
Is any of this about Primal stuff; let alone about feeling stuff? … unless the only feeling is you don’t like Donald Trump. I think any feeling person sees right through the guy. If you are having private emails or phone calls with Larry keep it to that.
One line mentioning Larry’s state of being then a whole slough on D T. You really seem to spend a lot of time and effort on all this that I would consider bull shit.
Jack
Jack: Remember when you used to say that the blog is not therapy? You cannot possibly have therapy on the blog? Now the rules have changed to suit your purposes.
I’m not stopping anybody from posting what they want to post; why do you feel the need to stop me from posting what I want to post? Are you the second incarnation of Arthur Janov with your censorship attempts?
Donald Trump is definitely an amusing character, to be sure. Perhaps dangerous to a lot of folks, but still entertaining.
I don’t have to justify what I am doing for you in the slightest manner whatsoever. If you don’t like what I am saying, ignore me! It’s no skin off my ass.
It’s not who and what you are stopping, BUT what you are relating to, on a blog meant primarily for feeling-full events. “Crooked thinking” again, as designated by the guy you seem intent NOT to read.
You don’t have to justify anything to anyone .,.. other than yourself … IF, you are willing to delve into the depths of yourself. Was not the purpose for you and many of the rest of us, coming to this therapy???? Maybe not in your case!!!
Jack
Simmer down there, ole Tory. Your favorite sparring partner Patrick will be back in a couple weeks or so.
Meantime, until the other one arrives back, it’s fun poking you.
Guru’s don’t cut it with me.
Jack
That gives a good glimpse at the dynamics of the ‘endless argument’…………..something the likes of Larry and Margaret and many others ignore either deliberately or from not being bothered to paying attention. Or maybe because the perceive you as being on ‘their side’…………….what I call ‘group think’……………..
I was not aware that poking those that seem to “think crookedly”, was group think. But then I kinda feel that you THINK you the ALMIGHTY thinker.
Not my idea of you at all … even after 27 years of knowing you.
Why did you come out of your “kennel” … so early?????
Jack
The sense of parasitism I was directly facing a long time ago was much more complicated than the straightforward story of Trump in my last post. I estimate approximately $200 billion per year in human costs associated with high-speed automobiles in the US. Why do the largest businesses and companies feel entitled to the benefits of such machinery without ponying up any of the collateral costs? I won’t go any further than this, because I need to focus my attentions elsewhere. I just wanted to provide a nutshell explanation of where I am personally coming from.
Fore me. this was a devilishly hard question for a pre-schooler to face. There is really no point in my continuing to ponder how horrific it is at any length. Life is exceptionally fragile from the Primal perspective and exceptionally cheap from the hardcore capitalist perspective (as Ulrich alluded to earlier by servicing the very rich, etc.).
(TYPO) Yes, yes, I meant to type “For” and not “Fore” as the first word in my last post, hahaha.
UG, All of this, of course, probably isn’t what you would have been thinking about asa pre-schooler. Any ideas on what was going on for you at that time? In my case I was school age when I lost my mother. She was very sick and I rememberhaving fantasies that she’d get better and become a real mom for me, although it should have been pretty clear that wouldn’t be happening. Maybe not clear to me as it wasn’t discussed.Also, she was never a good mother even while less ill when I was younger.Phil Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:17:21 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I said that about the $200 billion per year to a pre-schooler thing facetiously. Yes, it was a completely barren wasteland of no answers. Extremely frightening. I really can’t break down the phrase “impossibly challenging” to the phrase that resonates with a two-year old.
I’m sorry your hopes were dashed as your mother’s condition worsened and your mom didn’t become a real mom for you in the fullest way she could (or, at least, try to learn to be a real mom even if well). I have vague memories of when I was five and I used to fantasize a lot in school too. A teacher once complained to my aunt about that on my report card. Little did that egotistical teacher know…
UG,I don’t think women can train to become good mothers. Well, maybe a few tips could help; like breast feed and don’t spank. In Janov’s latest blog entry I was interested to see that he lists multiple sclerosis, diabetes,and heart disease as possibly caused by epigenetics and ultimately a lack of love.My mother had multiple sclerosis, so that kind of correlates to me withher not being a good mother. Her mother, my grandmother, was a cold women;not much love coming from her. She lived a long time but died of heartdisease. My grandfather died at a young age from a heart attack and Iremember my grandmother telling me he was a workaholic. I think Ican say with accuracy that my mother got little love as a child. I can also seethe effects on her brothers, one who is still living and the other who I rememberwell.Phil Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:05:12 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I do remember the old Primal literature about good mothering will instinctually come about once a lot of therapy has taken place. (ie. fully-feeling mothers are the best mothers). I still think just having one to begin with would be miles better than what you or I received.
Workaholics having heart attacks early are common. My cousins are an exception to this rule, though.
Would you like to share a bit more about your dad? I know I get along tremendously better with my dad than I did 20 years ago.
Or, if you prefer, can you describe in more detail exactly how your grandmother was cold to your mother and your uncle? Was it emotional distance? A lot of criticism?
> Ulrich,
> that’s ok, don’t worry about how you frased it, I feel all of us that got to know Barry a bit know he would never abandon someone.
> I had a lot of feelings about him in the style of not being interested or not caring or being fed up with me at the time.
> I once asked him if he did something on purpose to trigger me and I believe his reply, which was ‘there is enough pain without me wishing to add to it, I’d never do that’
>
> on the other hand when we take initiative to act out towards him in ssome way, and he feels we can deal with it, his reaction might be painful to us as then he does what feels therapeutically right at that very moment.
>
> I remember sitting next to him in group and trying to lean my head against his knee, as so many patients seemed to go for hugs with therapists and I was needing badly.
> he pushed me gently away..
> I just tried once more, and he did the same thing, and that time it immediately triggered me right into the feeling and I was on the floor crying my eyes out.
> and then there was his hand touching me to reassure me I was doing fine…
> he did exctly the right thing then on that specific moment for me.
>
> for years he would keep a bit of distance as that was the feeling I needed to go into about my dad, only giving me goodbye hugs upon leaving for home, but when I worked my way through that awful feeling of need, he also became more actively showing affection, as I did not struggle for it so much anymore.
>
> now I am a hundred procent sure he likes me, and that is one exceptional thing to be able to feel about someone, to feel completely accepted and well, appreciated, liked? which does not mean occasionally things are said that I do not like but then it can easily be adressed and resolved..
>
> now I need to work through still through some fears about being rejected and disliked by my mommy dear, which makes it scary sometimes to work with Gretchen for a change, but it feels necessary.
> sometimes it is fine, sometimes my fear and insecurity take over..
>
> told my mom on the phone yesterday I will bring her the old medical encyclopedia on my next visit so she can look through it for as long as she wants to keep it.
> glad I did, I feel being able to be nice is something that could maybe use some more attention in therapy, as paying attention to what is enjoyable and good in life, as opposed to e
> what is painful.
> they are both important, and the more pain we feel we indeed get more able to enjoy, but still, paying active attention to what feels good in life does feel helpful as well and also seems to enable me to feel deeper levels of the pain..
>
> just thinking out loud here..
> Ulrich, do you feel like telling us some more about yourself?
> I am curious, yes, smiley..
> M
Margaret, thx for your empathic reply. I regret I don’t know you in person, you seem very sensitive to me. I also like the way you write (except the arrows ;-), but I suppose that’s because you answered via mail client. 🙂
As for your curiosity: I don’t like leaving too much private data on public platforms, I’m afraid. I’m working in the digital business and know too much about the downfalls of the 21st century and the dispossession of Internet user’s data.
> Ulrich, the arrows are because my comments get copypasted onto the blog by Phil.
> I work with a screenreader by sound, as I lost most of my eyesight back in ’97.
> the screenreader does a fairly good job, but some websites remain a hassle nevertheless for me to navigate through.
>
> have you ever attended a retreat or do you consider going to one?
>
> I plan on going to next summer’s as I skipped this year, felt al the hassle of travelling and organizing my stay this year was too much on top of all the other stuff I had to deal with.
> but every time I go I kind of feel I could get used to living there, smiley..
>
> will be hard to leave my two young cats behind for a few weeks though, haha, but well, about ten months still to worry about that..
>
> are you back in Germany or still in the U.s>, or well, it is ok if you rather don’t answer of course, just couldn’t hold back from being just that curious still, smiley .
> M
> UG,
> extremely frightening gives an idea.. I hate to think of how it must have been..
> deprived is a word that comes to mind both for you and Phil’s childhoods..
> Jack, you are not being helpful at all there, give it a break please?
> M
Ulrich – here I go breaking curfew again but it’s ‘self imposed’ so I suppose what I can make I can break. But I just wanted to say ‘HI’ before you go away again if you do. I was driving to day and :I’m thinking “Ulrich” do I know you, I knew 2 other Ulrich’s but one of them was the same as Jack mentioned, he had a boat etc and you said that was not you. The other one I was pretty sure was not you and you mentioned you worked with me. And then it just popped into my mind, you I mean I had not thought of you or ‘remembered’ you forever well for say almost 30 years and then I could remember you so clearly. We worked together on moving jobs I am thinking about 10 times. (I like when I can remember like that something I had ‘forgotten’ feels like getting a bit of my brain back)
And I remember you fondly, you were a very cool (nice) guy very supportive as a ‘helper’ I was the ‘driver’ the one in charge and I remember things went very smoothly when you worked with me. You were ‘quiet’ you were in the early days of your therapy and I remember deciding not to ‘influence’ you at all. To let you make up your own mind, find out for yourself. It is true what you say I was in the ‘dissapointed’ stage but I remember thinking that’s MY take it was up to you what your take would be. But I suppose the ‘disappointment’ still came across.
My ‘ban’ is still in effect but I only want to touch on one thing. Margaret seems to think it is very ‘arrogant’ of me to think I might have some understanding about Germany different to you since you live there. Well……………….that’s a very poor argument very often the people closest are the ‘last to know’ This was/is true in my own case. I have talked here about how the English took everything from us our culture, our language, our religion we were truly and completely fucked over and the result was I and many many others thought/think the English are wonderful. I idolized their soccer players, musicians, writers etc etc and my brother is the same He has lived in England for over 45 years now and ‘loves’ it there. I have had quite a few ‘insights’ how I devalued everything CLOSE to me and worshiped things ‘far away’
I am not for a moment trying to say you have anything like that going on but think about it………………..the Germans were beaten badly in the war but maybe worse they were then convinced they were some kind of monsters. They were not it is hard to say who was the ‘worst’ in that war (my vote would be for Winston Churchill – maybe for my own reasons). Germany was and still is thoroughly degraded and must be full of ‘self hate’. They were given no other choice. So Ulrich this is nothing personal I have good and warm memories of you but when you are REALLY fucked over you are often the ‘last to know’ SONG Not really ‘appropriate’ to what I am talking about this is a ‘love song’ but anyway it seemed apt is some way. I mean the idea of ‘last to know’ if you are REALLY fucked over you WILL be the last to know
Yeah, that was me. Still is, I haven’t changed much. I also remember you quite positive. Our ways went off in different directions after an argument we had, but I still see you smiling most of the time. Even though I won’t ever work for you again 😉
About Germany being thoroughly degraded: That’s simply not true. Germany plays an important role in Europe – and are doing the same as they did two times before. They are fucking it up. I seems like as soon as Germans are in charge without having to fear to be made responsible, they get out of control. Like cowards usually do. Give them an ideology to lean on, be it ‘The German Nation’, Nazi fuck or Neoliberalism, you better beware. Right now our government is destroying the Greeks and if you ask me, I am not the last to know …’
> I had two great dreams this night.
> one long and detailed one featuring mr. Bernfeld, where we spent a long time talking and walking by some quiet rural seaside, I distinctly remember me saying at some point, at the end of one topic, ‘and I feel sad about my mom getting old’ , and added, thinking we were in ‘free time’,or more specially his free time, but that’s for later..’
> specially the atmosphere warmed my soul, as it was purely warm, understanding and affectionate.
> we even had tea in the last part of the dream, with more people around, and at the very end Barry handed me his cup of tea, and while I took one more sip before leaving I noticed how the cup was engraved with the word ‘truth’..
> is a bit silly, as in my brain coming up with this cup of tea, and at the same time while writing it down now I feel a rise of emotion and tearfulness and gratitude.
>
> then I had a second dream more in a kind of retreat setting, a lot of people around, and at first I could not get in touch with Barry, arrived late, but then got to talk to him some more about my feelings, again while walking around, this time looking at some magnificent horses.
> that made me ask him if I would be allowed to ride his most beautiful but prettty wild black horse, and he seemed hesitant, and I became aware it was because of my poor eyesight, and that put me in a feeling of … no, it did not put me into it, brought me in touch with it, it seems too big and painful to go in now, how terribly I miss the freedom of my eyesight.
> now I do feel like crying..
> M,
Sounds like a huge connection there between your Mom and your eyesight, and loss of both.
Margaret: I wonder if you remember when you were ill with menangitis if you remember the moment when you felt your sight going. I mention this since I have always felt sad about your loss of your sight. I too have supposedly had bad eyesight since being little and had some memories how when I was first tested for eye sight at 4y/o in school, I remember distinctly wondering what the hell was the guy asking me about. I was not letters but pictures of a hands: which direction it was pointing. I thought the game was silly and didn’t see the point.
Next thing I knew I was having to put these dangling things on my face and I hated them and each year the upped the perscription. I wish in hindsight they’d just left it with me to decide what I could and couldn’t see. Then at 27 I got contact lenses. Wow! that was so great … full eyesight without those ‘dingle dangles’ hanging on my face.
I feel the very same about hearing aids. My Jimbo talks so soft and yeah I suppose I am going deaf a bit, but I refuse to have those things clipped onto my ears and seemingly it’s not getting worse. Just for the record it always irritates Jim that I don’t hear him whilst he prefers to continue wispering. Like my dad it’s a bigger problem for him, that I don’t have first rate hearing, than it is for me.
Shit … did I pick me another daddy????????
Jack
> Larry, hadn’t looked at it in that way yet, smiley..
> it is more to me like every now and then i realize myself to which extend the very bad eyesight makes it all still much harder..
> it was good I could cry this morning after writing that comment, about all the things I lose out on.
> the stuff I loved to do, the exploring, the horsebackriding in the woods, just me and the horse, feeling well, happy really, satisfied, enjoying life.
> the sheer pleasure of looking around for pretty surprises like a small flower or bird or squirrel, I am starting to cry again.
>
> I miss staring at the sea or ocean waves so very much, my brain gives me regular treats of them in my dreams, as well as of starry skies and gorgeous landscapes and even buildings, ten times higher and prettier than in reality and full of stone and wood carvings and sunshine falling in through coloured glass from hundreds of meters high etcetera…
> then in my dreams I look at it all in conscious awe and admiration, occasionally in some dreamms literally crying because of the beauty.
>
> that is what I miss, and it is immense, am crying again.
>
> also my independence, and the connecting with people at some distance or nearby with just a glance, and the deeper connecting of looking in one’s eyes while communicating..
>
> good I can write and cry about it now..
>
> not being able to move around freely taking the world in is another big loss, have to stop and cry more now.M
> Larry, thanks for replying as it gave me an entry to some deep pain..
> last week my halfsister called me to say she had gone to clean our dad’s grave, and put flowers on it, as it was a mess.
> I told her I had planned to go one of these weeks with my brother and mom, and when I added if I would still be able to drive, I’d certainly have gone there more often, I could have started crying which took me by surprise back then as I cannot spend too much time on the fact of being blind in my daily life in order to function..
> kind of tend to focus on what does remain possible and nice, but hey, it is important and does feel like a relief to let it out again.
> some of it at least..
> I guess part of me still subconsciously clings on to a ray of hope eventually things will turn right again, and I will be my old, or young intact self again, but wiser and more conscious of what really matters in life…
>
> now I am facing the fear to gradually grow older, on my own, having to let go of dreams and hopes, like sailing over a blue lagoon and learning to dive and to enjoy the fabulous underwater world for example…
>
> I did gallop around on a horse still even while being blind, but without caring company everything gets very complicated to organize and enjoy…
> also my hopes for a boyfriend, or well, a middle aged male friend, are slowly fading as the years go by..
> one good thing is I have a turbulent and adventurous life to look back on, and have deeply enjoyed soaking up the sight of let’s say the pinky colours of the sky and mediterranean sea right after sunset, one of the moents of the day I wlways found the most beautiful there…
>
> luckily I still have enough restsight to enjoy the gracious beauty of my cats, enjoy a sunny day, and get some vague idea of my surroundings if possible..
>
> I am still very glad I started studying again, it helps me to feel I am making something of my life still in some way..
> I still feel capable of undertaking so much, with good company by my side, and do undertake some of what could be still on my own, like travelling to L.A. almost yearly for example..
>
> but you know it very well, dear Larry, a simple thing like washing dishes gets way more satisfying if you can do it together with someone , good company lifts up life so much…
>
> another reason to cry, shit..
> M
Margaret, I read your latest posts and I am really, really stunned about HOW MUCH you actually see and painted out for us. Thanks for that, I appreciated each of your post. Most people don’t see a fraction of that, even if they had a billion eyes all over.
> Jack, it was after more than a month in the hospital, that I started saying to people visiting me ‘isn’t it a dark day today?’, and they responded ‘no it is rather sunny’, a few times I noticed , robably later than they did, something was wrong, and getting worse seemingly.
> at the same time I was losing my balance, even had a hard time sitting up in bed all of a sudden, while during my first week in the hospital I still sneaked out for long walks in a nearby wild little park, or shrub, which had hidden spots full of wild flowers.
> so I asked the professor when he entered my room what was going on with me all of a sudden, I really felt panicky, and he did not answer me at all, simply turned around to his students, telling then here they hd a fine example of so and so…
> it freaked me out and my home physician happened to visit me just a bit later on and my mom, and he was so disgusted by how iI was (not) treated there, actually I did not know it but they had already told my mom they could only give me palliative care from then on, so well, he was appalled and ordered an ambulance to move me to another hospital.
> the trip was almost too much for me, on arrival I got into a fit two times, waking up with a rubber thing clenched between my teeth, my mom by my side all the time..
> it must have been very hard and heavy for her, but she was always supportive in the best and most reassuring way possible.
> but wel, the point was iI had other things on my mind and the doctors also said the vision problem might be temporary, until the pressure on the brain diminished..
> so I paid little attention to it really, feeling safe with my mom there all day long, every day of those 3 months and a half.
> she broke her foot, but managed even to be put in my room, so in the end iI had her there day and night, which felt very good and really helped.
> in that second hospital they finally sent me someone to teach me the braille alphabet, which I picked up, not by feeling but just the division of 1 to 5 ping pong balls in a box with six divisions, so just learning the system, which I found easy and the surprise of the teacher I was so fast pleased me, I remember.
>
> then bad experiences followed, with young ergotherapists not knowing what to do with me and wanting to teach me how to put a thread in a needle and to sow, which I did not like with good eyesight either so I refused as it made no sense.
> another one had the brilliant idea to take me up some fire stairs and leave me at the top telling me to try and make my way down, which put me in a horrid panic attack. my mom was sooo angry at them!!!
>
> I also had visual hallucinations, as my brain needed to adjust at no or less input and although usually I knew all the crowds of people I saw all the time, the palm trees and cardboard boxes, everything in reddish grey, were not really there, they sometimes made me stop in my room when going over to the table to eat, to let all the people pass first…
> my family must have been so sad and worried, I know some of them came by as they thought it might be the last time..
> once I did ask my mom if she would help me if I got worse and felt like putting an end to it, and her anser was straight and fabulous, she said, very calmly, ‘of course I would’…
> makes me teary to think of that prooof of great love she gave me, and it helped me to put the ideas of possible suicide behind me, reassuring me she would be there and I needn’t worry about anything at that mvery moment yet…
>
> I was a physical wreck moving in with her and could barely sit on a chair for ten minutes at first, but she kept encouraging me gently to do a bit more every day, then go out in the garden briefly, then a very short walk a bit further, etcetera, until finally I felt like living by myself again, already two months later.
> I first thought of moving back to the appartment I had rented before getting ill, but then we discovered a home for blind people which I agreed to go to for a while, which at first felt bad, as in ‘will this be my life now, a dark shady dependence of others in a restrcted environment?’, which felt very depressing.
> but there was also a good school for adults that were or got blind in the same street, which gave also computer classes and a lot of sports and well, I started to fight my way up again, meeting some very inspiring people there, both blind and seeing..
>
> I could go with someone I met in Primal to L.A. not even a year later, as she was an air hostess and we could share a place there to rent, and she would fly in with me.
> so one year later I was back in groups but did not feel much, until Barry asked me shortly before leaving if I could be enthusiastic about anything, and I finally realized myself I was depressed..
> it was a tough stay, as I got into a fight with my roomaate and had to leave there, but well, it still felt good to have done it, and the next summer or year, don’t remember well, I already went back on my own, and finally upon entering group room, immediately broke into howling tears for a very long time..
> I moved back to a rented appartment with a minimum of assistance, just two hours a week, and made it since then, now 17 years ago…
> had an affair with my piano teacher, learned the Argentinean tango, had singing classes and performed many times, and now study psychology at Open University..
> still sadness left about what I lost, and loneliness, too much of that in my life, but trying to make the best of things.
>
> and in the meantime therapy , which I started a year before all of this happened, started giving more and more meaning back to my life, giving my back a large part of my brain and feelings and memories and myself really, that is one thing Patric frased well, when he remembered Ulrich, that that felt like regaining a part of his brain.
> well, therapy gave me back that large part that had been cut off for far too long, turning life into a much more meaningful and fascinating experience again. it is priceless, and I can’t express how much I appreciate Barry’s help in all of this.
> there is plenty more to say, but hey, this comment seems long enough, not sure the site will take it all in one piece..
> M
Margaret, What a story, what a terrible illness you went through.It is so admirable how you have come back and how you live your lifeafter such a thing.Phil Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:41:08 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Inspiring.
I’m touched and inspired by how you crawled out of such a dark place in your life, Margaret, and by the skill, sensitivity, and care that Barry and Gretchen show us when we are broken and at risk of going down a wrong path but they help us along the more difficult, right path.
…they guide us to find the courage in ourselves to choose and take the more difficult, right path.
> thanks Ulrich, M
No, thank you. That was no lame ‘Hoppla, I feel sorry for you and don’t know what to say’. I meant it exactly how I said it, although now I can imagine it might sound different in other people’s brains. It seemed like you proved with many things you done how much you can see, one can feel it in the words you painted out here.
> and thanks Phil..
> it is like being called courageous, which made no sense to me at first, until I realized myself the one called courageous is actually feeling very scared but still doing stuff despite feeling like that..
> so well, the courageous usually do not feel too happy really a lot of the time, smiley..
> but hey, luckily I discovered I have a great capacity for loads of fun still, and am still in for all kinds of adventures, smiley!
> would love to learn some more about sea sailing for example, would love to have someone to go horseback riding with, have never tried a western saddle, is probably better for my knee that got injured right after having obtained my black belt judo.
> so much to find out still, so much that could, or could not happen.
> am grateful for my very active dreaming life every night, is a great treat really, even with nightmares included, as they are a way of processing hard to get to feelings.
> M
> Ulrich,
> I do understand .
> maybe I cherish so much all those things I enjoyed looking at, from fields full of flowers and butterflies when I lived in Spain to exploring all kinds of streets and even back alleys during my first stay in L.A. in the winter of 96 97 for six weeks.
> I have seen Barry and Gretchen and many others and have seen those fabulous r
> green ocean waves from above on the Santa Monica pier, stood there for hours actually gazing at them and their majestic beauty.
> maybe one has sometimes to lose first before learning the true value of something.
> I am grateful to my mind that makes up a bit for the loss by giving me those fabulous visual dreams every now and then.
> once I had one fantastic one with three dimensional galaxies and everything, it was so intense that even after waking up and staring at my dark ceiling I kept on seeing a starry sky for a minute or so..
> those dreams are not only visually fabulous, but often also filled with deep feeling.
> there are sad or scary dreams, but also hilarious ones, dreams with music and dreams in which I sing, and a lot of times I wake up talking out loud, smiley..
> as a kid I did sleepwalk a few times.
> I remembered it the next morning, which was funny, as I had gone into my parents room and when they adressed me had told them a bit briefly for their stupid question I came to look for my silk stockings, or nylon panties, whatever the English description is..
>
> so well, still don’t know if I am talking to Germany or the U.S. but it is nice to read?hear your feedback!
> hurray for Apple’s Voice Over screenreader, a fabulous piece of software that even helped me to pass my first statistics exam.
> feel I have done a lot of chatting this afternoon, despite being alone here with my cats, smiley.
> M
Well, there are also houses burning and a majority against refugees. A published reality is not necessarely a public reality. But It is true, we made room for about 1 million people this year, which make me feel good about many people here – but then again we doubled winnings on war industry in the first half of 2014. It’s our wars (along with the USA) that produces these refugees in the first place. And not to forget: Our industry needs especially Syrian refugees, because the majority of them is well educated middle class. I’d like to feel good about the situation, but there is a bad taste. However, for any single soul that made it to Europe and is allowed to stay it’s a blessing.
> Ulrich, on the other hand they are the most welcoming country to the refugees..
> by far..
> it is shameful to watch so many other countries including Belgium with its present right wing government, only slightly eased up by the christian democrats luckily, it is scary to watch the atmosphere go sour and hostile in general.
> and now Polen…
> M
Sry, i replied on the wrong posting. Btw, I live in Germany, so we are pretty close neighbours 😉
> ha, one flame of curiosity less, haha!
> I did like your balanced view of the situation keeping count of the pros and cons.
> M
> I saw on the news last week an item in which a Syrian doctor, who still tried to help people over there, adressed the camera, and so the U.S. and other parties involved, with a plea to stop the crazy war as it became insupportable for the local people.
> he started crying and excusing himself repeatedly for doing so, while he went on begging to stop the war.
> it was extremely touching and painful as it is all so much beyond our range of influence.
> now it seems to escalate into a power struggle between the Russians and the U..S., about their influence in the larger regio there, and so the war will only get worse..
> of course IS should be held back, as they seem the craziest of all, but well, it is hard to form any opinion in the tangled up mess of interests , it feels discouraging, as I feel so bad for that doctor and evverybody like him that are stuck in the middle as innocent victims.
> sad and painful and frustrating..
> M
Affirmative, the only one right in this ‘mess of interests’, as you put it, is the doctor.
btw, since I will abandon the blog pretty soon I’d like to tell you, that your posts did way more effecting me than I thought. Last night I dreamt being on one of the middle sea islands, meeting some people, among them a girl, who used to speak out strange sentences, which I couldn’t decipher. Kinda funny, kinda senseless. She just was there among us and I really had no interest in getting to know her, but after some time realized, after another strange sentence, that I started to fall in love with her. The point is, I am in a stable relationship (hopefully) for about more than 20 years now, but didn’t know that I’m still able to feel that way. Being in love, yes, but falling in love? It was as if my body just showed me, that life went here and there and some things went out of sight, but no need to worry, you are still here. I had been blind in a way and didn’t realized that I can still see. Fuck, that’s really odd (and sad) – but also very light 😉
And before I forget: Congrats on your statistic exam. Was it the first or second? And, since I don’t like rolling out personal things in the most public place on earth, if you’d like to have a little chat here and there, I’d leave my mail address with Atty. I’d like to, but, of course, won’t be upset or anything, if you think otherwise.
> Ulrich,
> gern.
> M
> Anybody there?
> M
There’s nobody here but us chickens
> hey, we are not the chickens are we??
“Little Red Rooster”https://youtu.be/3gXpqpcnfIQ
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:01:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
It’s a famous old song “Ain’t nobody here but us chickens” https://youtu.be/D9iqQwb9AkE
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:37:53 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> haha, that’s a relief, plokplokplooook
> ain’t there also a song Little red rooster?
> would lighten up a chicken party a bit..
> in fact plenty of roosters here and few chicken..
> thanks for the song, smiley
https://youtu.be/3gXpqpcnfIQ Little Red Rooster
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:06:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> I tried the link, but only got a loud spot about a 3d movie The revenant, I think..
> quickly left the page as I don’t like pages with ‘I like this’ buttons since I found out some of the ways in which Facebook follows and registers everyone, even no facebook readers, who simply come to such a page, ha, of course my reaction is too late when I leave, but well,specially when I don’t get to what I was looking for it is just an extra reason to get out of there..
> the Belgian government has started a lawsuit against Facebook about this.
> M
This might work better:https://youtu.be/DGs6TDeXo8E?t=11
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:13:13 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> haha, Phil, I liked that song, after another loud spot about some shop for toys I had to listen to , in Flemish, so our side of the world’s interfering, I could listen to the song, very cheerful .
> I mailed the link to my singing teacher, as she planned once doing an evening with nothing but songs , both classical and jazzy or otherwise, about animals.
> I was gonna do a duet for cats from I think, Rossini. very funny, and pretty, and nothing but meows and hisses, for alto and soprano, haha the whole time meowmeows of all kinds, I remember rehearsing it here at home and suddenly I heard an extra meow at my feet, my former cat inquiring what the hell I was trying to convey, so she clearly picked out the meows as she never would do that kind of thing when I rehearsed other stuff, she would rather go to another room then, haha!
> thanks for the links, my screenreader could pick them up right out of the mail from the blog this time.
> some links remain simply inaudible for me, but not these ones.
I wonder where the rest of the chickens are?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:35:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Cluck-cluck; please don’t let today suck. Speaking of cats hiding in another room. When I watched a tape of Janov’s session with the patient “Joy” where she was crying deeply about her father not visiting, my cat hid under the bed because it sounded like a wounded animal and she got afraid. She stays away when I play Barbra Streisand songs too.
S
> Sylvia, haha, specially that last frase was funny! > does Barbara really sound like a wounded animal? > when I cried here with my former cat, a female, often I suddenly felt a wet nose or whiskers touching my face to check with me if I was ok. after a bit of reassurance she would go to continue her nap. > my two young males now still need to figure out what to do, so far they haven’t heard me cry too often luckily.. > and is it one chicken and two chickens? for some reason I thought it also was two chicken.. well well well.. > M
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:42:08 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> some probably looking for a can of wurms to open, smiley
Cluck cluck cluck crrrrridly clack crackle cluck a cluck diddle de f**k.
> Sylvia, haha, specially that last frase was funny!
> does Barbara really sound like a wounded animal?
> when I cried here with my former cat, a female, often I suddenly felt a wet nose or whiskers touching my face to check with me if I was ok. after a bit of reassurance she would go to continue her nap.
> my two young males now still need to figure out what to do, so far they haven’t heard me cry too often luckily..
> and is it one chicken and two chickens? for some reason I thought it also was two chicken.. well well well..
> M
Well, the fox (who is usually on a wild goose chase) is away,so the chickens can play.
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:01:15 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Phil was me actually, by proxy..
> and again talking of cats, I once had a cat that started running up and down the stairs every time I played the first record of the Soft Machine..
> yeah yeah..
> M
> it does make a nice change. it has been a pleasure coming on the blog lately, fun and also a great entry to some difficult feelings for me.
> and nice and inspiring company.
> M
Isn’t it wonderful Margaret to have things just the way you want them. Or think you want them. Or want them until you don’t. In the meantime if anything is not the way you want it you will attempt to ban that person until it is back to the way you want it. And isn’t it nice not to have to ‘think’ just think as the government tells you it is legal to think. What a nice comfy little world where ‘freedom of thought’ is just a distant memory.
Patrick speaking from his ‘kennel’ (dog house lol)
I just wanted to say I was also inspired by what you shared the other day about your experience in the hospital and your adapting to the new parts of your life.
Every time there is an overcast day I think of my ex, late sister-in-law (who was married to my eldest half brother.) She lost her sight to retinitis pigmentosa in her late teens. When it was overcast day her vision was worse. She could make out shapes but that was all. She was a positive outgoing gal who played guitar and liked to sing country western songs; quite in contrast to our more reserved family. She was always nice to me. So every cloudy day I think about the impression she made.
Margaret, just because the fox is pretending not to be there doesn’t mean he won’t come out to pounce on the chickens at an opportunistic moment. Sandy.
What an original image (not)……………I am stunned at your originality Inot)
How come you are brilliant enough to be in the mind of Margaret. Quote:- “….. just the way you want them. Or think you want them”.
I think the time has possible arrived for you to go back to Eire land. You promised to hide away until mid November (by claiming it to be October) Seems like some traces of dementia might be setting in. Yeah!!!!
Are you not the one wanting it (The Truth) to be just what you THINK it is??????
You’re a classic … in the sense of needing ‘you to hold the bulb … and for other four to twist you round’.
Great; that you are back to poke, though.
Jack
Why don’t you go back to ‘poking’ policemen in public bathrooms which put on on the Deportation list. So instead of telling me to go back to Eire or whatever why don’t you tell us how you deportation issues are going. At least if I go back to Eire I can come back…………….can you say the same you disgusting hypocrite.
You THINK you are ‘poking’ me just as you ‘THOUGHT’ you were ‘poking’ fags like yourself in public bathrooms but they were actually police. So ‘crooked thinker’ shut the fuck up………………….you think it’s great ‘sport’ poking me……………it just as compulsive and hate driven as what put you on the Deportation list…………..so shut the fuck up or I might have to actually go around and kick the dick out of your mouth………………you disgusting AIDS riven pervert…………….Leave me the fuck alone……………I am serious you demented faggot……………..
I am sure people will think what I have done is ‘bad’ but I would challenge ANY of you and that includes Pastor Larry to able to keep you cool if EVERY single time you go on here and say anything you have a fag like this creep pissing and ‘poking’ all over you. It is typical of course that ‘primal’ has no standards if Gretchen or anyone at all here with a bit of gumption or any kind of ‘leadership’ would tell this fag to knock it off. It is NOT acceptable. This is supposed to be a site where people can express themselves good bad or indifferent and this Deportee AIDS riven fag will compulsively and EVERY time talk shit to me and about me. Gretchen somebody tell this fag to keep his hate and perversion to himself or I might have to do something about it. He is on the Deportation list for ‘moral turpitude’ doesn’t what he is doing here constitute something like that. Maybe a good “Jewish’ lawyer might be able to do something about it but in the meantime where is a good “Jewish’ therapist who might try to keep this guy in order. MIA as usual……………….
When I was gone this compulsive asshole ‘attacked’ Guru all the time, what a joke if this guy sees himself as some kind of ‘primal success’ he cannot stop himself being an interfering fag but worse he has no desire to. No intention towards ‘good’ in any sense though if Pastor Larry or St. Tom posts anything here no matter how un-remarkable you will find ‘tears streaming down his face’ (he says).To me this guy is a fag who could never make it in the world of regular men so now he hides behind a keyboard and spews his drivel at me……………….as I say I will see what I can do to stop this……………..
My understanding of extreme and toxic emotion leaking out is that there is more historical early issue(s) going on than is related to the current target.
The same applies to the need to needle.
Jo: I did mean to respond to your post earlier, and in particular that you felt “The same applies to the need to needle”.
I agree in essence with what you say here: also I agree that between Patrick and I, there is a history of 30 years, and also some older feelings that I am (sort of) aware.. However, if there are ONLY two things I got from my therapy there are:- that I never felt the need to insult back (blame game). The other is:- as far as I am able, ‘to NOT be defensive’. My reasonings are purely for my own benefit. No desire to the ‘good guy’.
I did, some time back, state my reason for ‘poking’ and unless I am asked again, I don’t feel the necessity to repeat it.
Jack
> Patrick,
> you are so attached to your jerk/victim cycle I can only shrug my shoulders by now.
> M
Margaret – you ‘shrug’ when you are not banning. Why don’t you do you know what is right this jack-off ruins the blog. You and Leslie and Pastor Larry and all the rest claim to be concerned about the atmosphere on the blog…………..well DO something then. But this PR seems ‘on your side’ so you let this shit go year after year……………..primal integrity at it’s best………….worst actually
Like I said I challenge ANY of you to put up with the constant sniping mocking second guessing this guy does to me. ANY of you. Pastor Larry, Saint Tom, Margaret, Jo, Leslie, Sandy ANY of you would not put up with this crap. If ANY of you would speak up it would affect this guy he is above all and always a PR man so if one of the ‘respected’ ones (that’s anyone in ‘primal’) this jerk would pull in his horns. Or his dick. He ‘poked’ around with his dick all his life led to I think 5 arrests just while he was here, ‘poking’ policemen he thought were similar fags to himself in public bathrooms.
Margaret you like to ‘referee’ the blog you have quite seriously tried to have me banned for ruminating about vaccines and the holocaust. Big crimes right? Why don’t you do and say something you know is right, this guy ruins the blog with his crap. A lot of people might say I am just as bad but the thing is I am REACTING to this jack-off. I have asked him more than once to just leave me be and I would do the same. Not a chance the very fact I want it means he will do the opposite. A pervert. I am someone who gave him so much over the years but whatever……………………..i am fine with us going our own way. He if he sees me he says would cross the street and walk the other way…………..fine well then KEEP AWAY from me here too.
I am telling him and warning him he better lay off me or I WILL go over to his trailer park and let all his neighbors know is he is on a Deportation list for perverts. Let PR man deal with that, let him ‘spin’ that, let him talk his way out of that. Americans generally are wary of living next to perverts especially sex perverts and it might be interesting where things would go from there
Next move is up to you faggot……………… you are a coward hiding behind a keyboard, this has gone on long enough I WILL do something to stop it and let’s just say where everything falls out…………..
> Patrick,
> you keep distorting reality. you keep coming back with me wanting to ban you because of the subjects you raised, while I repeatedly told you it is not the subjects that made me want to ban you temporary, but the violence and intentional hurtfulness you practice more and more.
>
> and don’t bullshit about Jack being the cause and reason, the way he adresses you can be irritating but his words are almost never really vicious or cruel.
> he mostly throws back your own stuff at you, which seems very hard for you to deal with.
>
> as a matter of fact I did ask Jack once to hold a
> back, in a private mail conversation, and he was silent for quite a while then, but it did not stop you from bullying others.
>
> i had hoped you taking a break would have made you come to your senses but you sound worse than ever, the only solution would be for you to look for the source of the rage and hatred, but instead you insist on comin here and looking for confrontations, threatening with physical violence.
>
> jack is merely acting as a mirror, and if I asked him to give it a break for a while, it was merely because you sounded back then too as if you are losing control of yourself.
>
> be straight, Patrick, all that rage can’t possibly be originated by Jacks poking, even if that might be inappropiate occasionally.
>
> don’t even know why iI keep talking here, expressing myself is probably the only result.
> if you do not want to
>
> to listen or can’t hear this, I mostly feel concerned.
> M
It’s interesting but I was about to write something very similar to what Margaret has said. I think if you look back at the blog you will find that you and Jack have driven each other equally crazy over time. Where it changes is with threats and name calling. Some of this is not so dissimilar from what I perceive as your rage towards Jews and I think it is important to take a good look at that. The bigger issue at the moment however is the loss of control which, like Margaret, also concerns me. I’m going to write you privately later today to discuss this. Gretchen
Gretchen – you know better than that or maybe you don’t. I have found you a bit weak and conventional in the logic dept. You KNOW I have tried to make peace with Jack, I have offerend joint sessions meetings whatever. You KNOW he has disdained that……………..fine, it’s a free country and that’s his right.
But I am amazed nobody here tells him to knock it off including you Gretchen. Do you know how hard it is I have ‘half formed’ thoughts that I like putting on here and this pervert sits there and ‘grades’ every word and never in any constructive way………………..just hatred and ‘getting off’ on ‘poking’ I could not but see the similarity of all the acting out over the years. And acting out that affected me I paid for his legal defenses TWICE, just to keep him in the country. All of this is forgotten and it seems resented later and I become the big bad capitalist enemy or some such nonsense.
See now I’m ‘afraid’ this will start more from him but my promise still stands “Leave me the fuck alone or you will regret it, maybe we will both regret it. But I would rather go out in an Irish blaze of glory that to have to endure the drip drip drip of hatred and ‘getting off’ that he does. Just as the police did not find it acceptable neither do I and I am prepared to take whatever consequences come from all this. My rules are simple leave me alone and I will leave your AIDS infected ass alone too. Simple enough.
> Sandy,
> I do not let him intimidate me.
> we have a saying in Flemish that says ‘truth hurts’, but all Patricks attacks do not affect me as they do not contain any truth that might resonate with me.
> and if something would resonate, I would simply look at it and search my soul to find out what it is about.
>
> which does not mean his behavriour is bothering me more and more.
> we are no chickens and he is no fox.
>
> please don’t let him hold you back, you have so much to say, that is much more worthwhile to get attention than his attempts to hurt people.
>
> you know better than to take seriously any of what he says, about people, it is just attempts to hurt.
> they for me miss any true content as they have nothing to do with the real persons only with what Patricks distorted perception makes of them.
>
> I have always seen you stand your ground very well in the past.
> you certainly do not strike me as a chicken.
>
> of course with all respect to any old feeling being triggered.
> ignore him, delete him, tell him to fuck off, whatever, he can’t harm you.
>
> you are a truely worthwhile person with all the right and more to be here and feel free.
>
> and Patrick, before you say anything, you are worth it too, only your behaviour is becoming more and more unacceptable and that is your own responsibility and choice.
> I have known you in a different mindset and know you are able to be different if you choose to.
>
> you turn around the order of behaving like a true asshole and then acting like a victim for being criticized, you set yourself up all the time and blame the world for responding honestly.
> it is about time you look at that pattern of yours before you get into real trouble, I am serious.
> I do care about you, and am trying to help, I hope you remember that.
> M
plok plok plok? plokplok grrr? plokkerdeplok?
>
Is that Flemish Margaret?
actually this here chicken is trying to make itself understood by you foreigners in Flemish it would be tok tok took toooook grrrr? tokkerdetok!
>
Cluck cluck cluck cluck
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:19:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hark! It’s the Halloween Trick or Treat Chicken Gang. Here’s some candy corn for you. Be careful in crossing the road to get to the other side.
S
BOO!!!
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:01:48 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Phil, isn’t it a dangerous time of the year to make that sound???
> M
it’s gobble gobble gobble gobble….that will be a dangerous thing to say Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:47:13 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yesterday I had laser surgery to remove bladder stones. I was admitted to hospital as a day patient. Got the wrist band, a bed, changed into the hospital gown, the whole bit. Was under general anesthetic during the surgery which took an hour. For 24 hours afterward I’m not to drive a car or make any independent decisions. In the afternoon a friend drove me home. They sent me home with a catheter installed, which was quite a discomfort to live with initially. I am a little more used to the catheter today. I am to remove it on Monday morning.
In the hospital I didn’t like not being in control of my life, having to give myself over to being a patient for the medical staff to prod and treat from their friendly, caring but emotional distance.
I looked forward to getting out of here and back to my life again.
I was in the same hospital, in the same type of room that Noreen was in after she was first diagnosed with cancer. She was there for a week, being cat scanned and assessed, close to dying from difficulty breathing until finally a couple of litres of fluid were discovered and drained from her lungs. Then transferred to another hospital for radiation and chemo therapy. I remember the shock of wondering whether she would survive to the next day. Yesterday in the same hospital I felt a glimpse of what she might have felt, hoping to live, hoping to get out of here soon and back to a normal life, but having to face acceptance of the possibility of death.
The anxiety leading to the day of surgery, the preparation for it and then the day of surgery itself, then arriving back home with a catheter, some pain, and a feeling of fragility, culminated in me feeling very alone. I so much needed love around me, and there was none. I so much needed people to phone as ask how the surgery went, but the phone didn’t ring. I thought of your stay in hospital Margaret and your feeling of your mother being there for you. I don’t ever remember feeling that way about my parents.
I felt scared, alone and fragile yesterday after I got home. There is no avoiding it. I am deeply alone. Broken, I cried. There is an ugly aspect to this therapy. The worst feeling as I cried wasn’t the aloneness, The worst feeling was the ugly truth that this therapy makes me have to face, that mine weren’t the loving parents I want to believe they were. I feel I’m letting them down somehow by admitting they just weren’t capable parents. It is deeply ugly and painful to admit and I’m almost angry at this therapy for taking me there, but the truth is inescapable. I cried deeply briefly, shocked but relieved to finally let myself go there.
Watching a movie on TV last night, I cried about losing Noreen, more deeply than before. I am back there, in the moment, letting it all in more that I am losing her, she is dying, gone. It has taken me all this time to get to the deeper stages of grieving her, because it has taken me all this time to see how except for her, I was always alone.
Larry: So, so sad and yes, I understand the anger as well. I know my note will be no compensation for wanting someone to call you on the phone after the surgery. Also, so sad that you needed to go there in the first place, and you had the misfortune to lose the love of your life.
What it demonstrates most of all, is the absolute need we all had when we were so vulnerable and such need of ‘them’ … those that should have known to just put the arms around you/us and caressing you/us and being totally there for you/us.
What is even more aggravating is that after that “great discovery”, so little attention is being paid to it.
I hope Larry, your recovery is as relatively quick as possible, and you get that catheter out soon.
Jack
Larry,I’m glad you’re back home and recovering after that surgery, but sorrythat nobody was there for you. You shouldn’t have to go through such difficultthings alone.Phil
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:49:14 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Larry,
> sad…
>
> is there nobody you can call from the bereavment group or the unitarian church?
> I am sure some people would be happy to pay you a visit.
> even if you are able to go without, you deserve that bit of comfort !!
> M
> Larry,
> or give your sister or a brother a call?
> M
Hi Larry,
Take good care of yourself. I am glad you could tell us about the surgery and all it unearthed.
Also hope you can invite someone over for a quick visit.
ox L.
I texted a brother this morning. He has no sympathy for me. 🙂 He had his prostate with aggressive cancer removed and had to wear a catheter for two weeks. Tough guy. Recovering and coping very well. The point is he had a wife and two young adult children at home in his life for support as he dealt with his health crisis. I’ll talk to another brother this evening. That’s not the problem.
It’s when I’m alone, vulnerable, fearful, fragile, in need of comfort and support, such as just before and the day of the surgery, and then in the initial stages at home working out how to manage a catheter that I realize how alone I am and how in some ways it is self-imposed because I am afraid to reach out in my need. Because I don’t let them in, I don’t have people close to me in my life who would have been concerned for me the day before and the day of surgery, checking up on me to see how I was doing. Though I want and need it, I am afraid of the attention and caring that I don’t feel I deserve. It would have hurt to get it. It would have brought up the emotional pain that I described yesterday, so I avoided giving people the opportunity to care about me. The day before the surgery, at work at lunch I casually mentioned that I was having the surgery the next day. One of the women who was one of my first summer students 20 years ago said she’d give me a ride to the hospital. I was almost alarmed by the offer, feeling like I didn’t deserve her generosity. Of course I know I have to let people be nice to me. After the crying yesterday, I have a better idea why it hurts when they are.
On Thursday because I was preparing for the surgery, I didn’t go to dance practice, so I didn’t find out whether She would be there again. But I have made progress in another way. There is a lady in my dance class who is about the same skill level as me, who seems on the surface like a nice person, who like me doesn’t have a partner and because of that finds it hard to go to the dances. We talked about the dances being good practice and fun, and how it would be easier to go to them if we knew at least each other would be there to dance with. There is a dance tonight but I didn’t know whether after the surgery I’d feel well enough to go. She gave me her number so that I could let her know whether I was going or not. In all the years I’ve been doing the ball room dance classes, this is the first time I’ve exchanged phone numbers with a woman in the class.
Larry,I can relate to what you say as I have a similar tendency of not lettingpeople into my life, or kind of pretending I don’t need them. I do have my family here but otherwise hardly anyone else, which becomes clear during vacation time when I’m here alone.I find it a very difficult problem to overcome. Phil
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:27:27 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
A curious and interesting development after the bladder stones were removed and the anesthetic wore off, is that I feel so much more my healthier self than I have in months, like a great weight has been lifted. After a few hours back home I eventually realized yesterday that my polymyalgia rheumatica symptoms have subsided dramatically, though not completely gone. i wonder whether the stones and bacteria they may have been harbouring have been stressing my immune system, leading to the autoimmune disorder. Time will tell whether the change is real and lasting.
Keep writing to us here Larry, we are reading you and it’s both good for us, and good for you (I do feel confident to speak for some others).
Jack
Larry,
That’s great news you other symptoms are subsiding. I hope that was the answer. Keep keeping good care of yourself.
Sandy
Unfortunately the symptoms are back, but thanks Sandy.
Hi Larry
This is what I looked up on the web: http://www.arthritisvic.org.au/Conditions-and-Symptoms/Polymyalgia-Rheumatica.
Does this describe what you are suffering from sufficiently?
If so, it’s a bummer. I got curious because you wrote you had bladder stones removed.
I have suffered from kidney stones for the last fifty years. Been in hospital emergencies both here in Sydney and Melbourne, and Los Angeles, a number of times. Last time when a stone blocking the urethra was removed, the good doctor found some growth in my bladder, as well as some stones, which he promptly cut out and removed.
But you unfortunately suffer from arthritis, which can be debilitating. Poor you.
Next time you have to go to hospital, can you trumpet it on this blog, so that we can be there for you. We can call you at all times of the day and offer our sympathy. If you have an Iphone, we can even see each other and commiserate with you on Skype and/or WhatsApp and/or Viber and/or FaceTime. We can even leave instructions to your good doctor, how to do his job. And tell the nurses when to turn you over, and to be gentle with you.
Tom
Hi Tom. It’s not arthritis in the sense that it doesn’t affect my joints. It affects my muscles, making them very achy, especially overnight and early morning. The pain kills my vitality, making me feel sad/depressed. I can’t help wondering whether the polymyalgia is a physical manifestation of deep emotional pain and sadness that I numb myself from. Today I’ve been crying through the day about how I needed my Mom and Dad, my Mommy and Daddy. Like any kid, I just needed a Mommy and Daddy to love, and to love me, that’s all. The ugly side of this therapy is that it helps open me to feelings, then takes me to the truth that I didn’t have a Mommy and Daddy to love. I simply missed out in that very crucial department, and what I’m left with after doing therapy and facing truth, is that I will never be compensated.
Dad died 11 years ago. Mom is 88 and has been in a nursing home for the past 6 or 7 years with vascular dementia. She is very frail now. In early October she stopped eating. My sister phoned and told me today that Mom is refusing liquids now. She is shutting down. Her time is near. After I yank this catheter out tomorrow, I’ll see if I feel strong enough the next day to travel to Winnipeg to see her one last time. She probably won’t last to the weekend. She is probably to weak and frail to be aware of my presence or who I am.
Hi Larry
Your reply really stirred me up. Your description of where your mum is at. Not eating, and now refusing to drink.
My mum went through exactly the same thing.
Just reading your lines I started to ache, ache, long for my mum. She is gone. Never to see or talk to her ever again. I can’t believe it hurts so much, even after all this time.
I want her. I want you. I want you to hold me. I want you to look into my eyes. Comfort me! So I stop aching for you.
Don’t leave me. Not for ever! Please. Please
Come back for one more time.
……..
I am in Skyzone, a place for my grandson to use the trampoline. I am sitting here waiting for
Him. In the cafe. And I am aching.
Do something.
Tom
Larry
Go and see her.
I went to see my mum almost every day for two years in her nursing home. Where I put her.
And then I got a call 5:15 am one morning that she is gone. I rushed there. Sat next to her. I looked at her. I wanted her to open her eyes and look at me.
I touched her skin. She was still warm. I couldn’t believe she was gone. I touched her again, and again. Finally the doctor came to provide a provisional death certificate.
He looked at me, saw the pain in my eyes and told me that she is gone.
I still can’t believe I can’t have her. I am tearful in a public place.
The longing for you is unbearable. I will go to the cemetery soon and be near you.
Unbearable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
Halloween always makes me feel like a stick in the mud. I can never think of a costume, and if i do i can’t think of how to make it. All my “I can’t” demons rise up. Hmmm maybe i should go as a stick in the mud…or a demon…oh right I can’t figure out how to make it.
Sandy.
Margaret,
Some recent posts you made about your life affected me. It touched me to get to know some more details of your life. Also, as you wrote about your eyesight, of coming to terms of how your life is different, the loss of how your life changed from it, you made me cry and you touched some pain that I live with in my life. For me it’s the loss of something I never had…a child. I haven’t the patience to type about the reasons why I never had one, but it’s a loss I feel in some form practically every day. When someone mentions about their kids (and now the grandkids), no matter how dramatic or cute or troubling or inert the mention, it all pings that sore spot. It was good to cry about that today and let some of it out.
Sandy.
That is sad.
Larry
Half an hour after the doctor left, the funeral people came. They put my mum into a “bag” ready for transport. Then they left.
I went back and sat next to her empty bed. I could’ believe it. She’s gone. Never to see her again. Not ever. My mum.
Awh. It is still so raw. It happened a few moments ago. ( 28 th January, 2012). Yesterday.
Ash.
Tom
How are you Jack? Gretch
“How are you Jack? Gretch” Short answer:- “Ok” medium answer. Larry’s and Tom’s posts saddened me. Long answer:- ……………….. (it’s a long, long story) ………….
Margaret:- “is something wrong with Jack?” Many things … alas … I suggest you re-read Patrick and you’ll get all the answers. He’s known me for long enough.
My Jimbo:- “Oh! “I suppose you are loving all the attention”
Me:- “Yep. I really really love it. I know I shouldn’t BUT I do”.
On a more serious note:- .The night before last we were told to put the clock back. Oh! I thought. How long … can I put it back some 50 years???? that’d be nice.
“Nooooooo!!!!!! … just one hour … and be greatful for that … cos come next March, we’ll take it back back again. I knew there was not free lunch!!!!!
On a real serious note:- I question:- why it is that Patrick’s comments about me, don’t knowingly hurt me. My reasoning (as of now) are:- I see it merely as Patrick’s feelings. Yet! I do feel terribly hurt when my Jimbo gets angry with me and say’s things that really hurt … all I can do is go off for a walk or onto my bed and express my hurt out of range of him hearing. If I try to have it out with him it tends to spiral out of control.
One last point:- after Patrick’s last comment I was about to respond and then I saw that Gretchen was going to have a private email with him, and so thought better of it, and decided not to respond at all.
Yes Gretchen, I am crazy … but hopefully getting ever so slightly better. At 83 things are somewaht different.
Jack
> Sandy, I relate to that feeling of yours, though less intensely. I remember once being in a group with you, happened to hold a toy rabbit, and suddenly got overwhelmed with the surprising feeling I did miss out on having a child, and how deeply sad that is..
>
> and then Larry and Tom’s comments got right into my heart as well…
>
> I seem to be opening up to some hard core stuff recently, this night had a dream about being wiht my late husband and some dope friends from long long times ago. I was upset as my boyfriend took so long to prepare me a shot, while I had been clean for a while but was eager to have it still right then..while I was talking wiht one of the long lost friends, asking him if he recognized me, suddenly this rope gets slid around his neck by some big guy with a black mask on, who started to choke him. there were more of those guys, all out to kill us all, so I started running away, syringe in my hand, knowing I might be killed very very soon, so tried to put the needle simply in a muscle of my leg while running, in order to at lest feel some good feeling before dying, but at thhat very moment I felt the tip of a knife touching my back, a split second before it was gonna really stab me, and woke up with a jerk and a moan…
>
> not very clear what is going on with me, but it is good the poison comes to the surface, instead of remaining deep inside of me..
> I feel bad for you Larry, so much difficult stuff piling up on you at the same time..
> I’ll be thinking of you..
> M
> is something wrong with Jack?
Margaret,That is some dream you had.Maybe because Jack was severely threatened?Phil
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:08:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
NO – he wasn’t ‘threatened’ I told him all he has to do is stop ‘poking’ me but I understand if even 4 or 5 arrests could not stop him ‘poking’ policemen the compulsion and hate must be deep indeed. Go on turn this into another ;’pity party’ all he has to do is act with even a small bit of ‘;maturity’ and consideration for others.(me in this case)
I have said above over and over if ANY of you were subjected the the kind of shit he puts on me you would not put up with it………………..not even Pastor Larry would.
Didn’t you try to poke (get a fuck) from a police woman thinking she was a prostitute?????
Jack
Actually NO – and the charge was pled down to ‘trespassing’ and it was once. Your compulsive repetition is what strikes me more than anything.I am still ‘amazed’ though I probably should not be that no-one tells you to knock it off (Guru excepted a bit)……………but as I say I should not be amazed. The primal community has no standards from the top and the patients are mostly the meek and mild type (including Pastor Larry)
I’m feel down today, sad. As so often happens there isn’tso much that I can point to going on. Maybe my relationships aren’t goodenough; there was an incident on Friday with my wife and we exchanged sharp words. That brought up angry feelings.Today I’m just feeling down and thought I’d mention it here.It happens to me continuously and I usually do get relief, so maybethat will be the case when I have a chance later on.Phil
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:08:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
What do you mean when you have a chance later on?
I’m at work now. I’m feeling like I need to cry but willhave to wait until later. Phil
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:49:11 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> Phil, hang in there. you are a fine person. very likable.
> I asked about `Jack as I wondered why Gretchen asked him how he was doing.
> M
Thanks Margaret
> Gretchen,
> I am feeling more and more it is unacceptable how privacy is repeatedly violated on the blog, and systematic personal demeaning attacks are made without any reason .
> there should be boundaries set, and as on the other primal blog time outs for people repeatedly and intentionally trespassing rules of privacy etc.
> as Phil once stated outing people’s medical information is even against the law in California, for example, and it has happened here.
> I am so fed up with all what feels unacceptable really, and does not lead ito anything constructive, on the opposite seemingly.
> we can all try to ignore it, but well, I am fed up.
> of course I can only express my feeling/opinion.
> are there no rules whatsoever?
> maybe it feels like that one group where the same person went on and on shouting and ranting and I ended up wailing like a baby, finishing to wail the very moment he shut his trap.
> plain and simple distress at something very unpleasant and unwelcome.
> M
Margaret – more banning?. Why don’t you address where all this starts with Jack and his constant ‘poking’ You would not put up with that for a day let alone four years. Pull your head out and as far as ‘medical information’ goes the unfortunate thing is neither you nor Jack has a problem there. But like the good patients you are you just swallow what your doctors tell you whether primal doctors or otherwise. The other unfortunate effect is you and Jack seem to suffer from the same effects of drugs for a non existent condition………… the effects that I see being for example intolerance of different view points, irascibility, touchiness in a bad way, fanatasims about primal and all around no other interests but primal ……………well you know the usual list……….
People who struggle with the therapy are lucky. They get to keep their illusions.
People who succumb to the therapy are left with nothing but horrible ugly truth regardless of which life carries on.
This morning I yanked out the catheter, as instructed. There was burning pain, and afterwards when I urinate. Nothing that Tylenol can’t handle. I’m drinking lots of fluids, doing a lot of peeing to flush and heal the urinary tract. I have new respect for the job our kidneys and bladder do for us, filtering out and removing toxic fluids, hour after hour, decade after decade, incessantly. Now able to move freely, I did some exercise at home today to regain some strength, lost post-surgery when the catheter was in restricting me, weighing me down.
I’m relieved it is out and my life can be more normal. I feel a little weak. I feel alone. I feel fragile. One thing I cannot escape. My Mom has only a few more hours, at most days.
I unconsciously knew when I was little that they couldn’t give me what I needed. I unconsciously knew I’d have to make it alone. Unconsciously, I had to shut down my need for them.
Thanks to this therapy I’m awakening. Always needed them. Always hurt that they weren’t there.
Lucky for me I read the Primal Scream and began to understand this crippling ache in me. Afterward lucky for me at really crucial times in my life that I reached out and from people found support and encouragement that helped me move along, that I got from them a tiny taste of what I should have known growing up.
We are in this therapy because life has failed us. It’s not this therapy that I want. I want them. I needed their nurturing. I needed them to be proud of me and my accomplishments. I needed them to be caring, understanding and loving through my difficult times. I needed to love them and be loved by them. It’s not my fault I was denied. My growing up was all encompassing, never ending ache.
Thanks to this therapy, I’m awakening to feeling what I couldn’t when I was little. This therapy leaves me with an ocean to fill of tears, crying the hurt of what should have been. I don’t want to be in this therapy. I don’t want to be a success in it, when success means facing there is nothing for me, never was.
It’s so sad that soon my Mother’s life will be over. Their one and only chance to raise and love me is over.
How could I have faced the truth when I was little. Such an impossibly heavy burden to fall upon the poor little guy. It wasn’t his fault. So sad I disliked him all these years, thinking it was.
It feels like the crying will never end.
Thinking about you in this difficult time Larry. It’s admirable that you cannot lie to yourself. All of your posts are full of self truths and truths about others. Take good care.
S
That is nice of you to say, Sylvia, thank you.
Larry,I’m glad you’re getting back to normal. It does seem like you’regoing through so many difficult things at once, now with your mother in the bad state she’sin and it’s good that you’re writing about it all here. I don’t think there’s anything lucky about struggling with the therapy and keeping illusions.To me that would mean having all the sadness, anger, need etc. all bottled up and having little realcapacity for feelings. Also, never quite being able to get any sense out of life. I’m feeling better tonight as I did a lot of deep crying; sad feelings about being so alone, on my own with everything. Also about people leaving me;my mother, my sister, and everyone else I had. I was remembering how my sister was veryimportant to me, she was 9 years older, and could often be very sweet and kind. Herewas somebody who could, at times, actually see me. At a certain age I remember being fixatedon her. She brought a lot of life to our home, everyone else was so dead and depressed. But she left too, as she had to go live her life, and after all she was a sister and not a mother. Ironically, in my adult life we have had no relationship at all, as she wants nothing to do with me or anyoneelse in the family. In over 30 years I’ve seen her once. It really is so crazy but I think she’s done with us as it’s too painful. Easier just todisconnect entirely. How my sister has so completely cut herself off from me feels quite similarto what I experienced from my mother as a child, so it’s very ironic. I’m sure it’s no coincidence.Phil Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:57:00 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Hi Phil. Sorry that your sister may see you as a symbol of the pain you all endured growing up. You don’t deserve that. Nice that she was there for you at times when you needed to be recognized. Looks like you got to some good insights about feeling alone.
I’m glad the crying tonight gave you some relief, Phil. I’m feeling better too after the crying I did today, and changed, seeing my life in better perspective. I’m glad you had your sister for a while.
As little kids we had too endure impossibly way too much neglect.
> after another nightmare yesterday nigt, filled with filth, creeps and full of disgust, this night I had a nice dream of being at a university and installing a room and a study place and enjoying preparing it well..
> hopefully htis turn for the better continues..
> don’t remember if I posted here about the former dream about my mom trespassing some of my boundaries and then trying to kill me..
> I was fighting with her and then running for her, but she was catching up by the time I woke up. it was really awful
> M
Margaret, is something changing in your life?.. How is the current situation with your mum? It sounds frightening.
Jo
> Larry,
> how are you doing?
> M
I’ve been a bit more in touch with my mum punishing me, today…begging her not to smack me ( which I don’t think I was able to at the time)… I was a scapegoat for her anger…I feel unloved, unwanted.
> jo, that’s terrible, I did not know she did that to you.
>
> am not sure about what is changing in my life, maybe in general being more open towards my feelings and less acting out, bringing up hidden monsters during my sleep..
> and mom getting old and more frail, but also still tending to be on the dominating side, less succesfully so but still..
> and me facing no miraculous connection will be made, not much more than what is there , which is not all bad but still makes me sad about what is not there.
>
> leading a cleaner life too, long stretches without taking any painkiller, so facing the hard moments more in their raw ugliness if they arrive..
> ha, one of my cats just passed in front of my nose purring and rubbing itself against my head, off to cuddle now!
> M
Mom died yesterday evening. In the afternoon I was able to visit her for a couple of hours with my brother and sister-in-law, and then with more and more family members as they arrived. It was apparent Mom would never be conscious again, and had no more than a day or two left. It was most difficult for me to maintain composure in order to have a visit. Early in the visit when just the three of us were there, I had to reach out and ask to hold my sister-in-law’s hand to give me strength of composure while I held and stroked my Mom’s aged, frail, almost lifeless hand. Much as I was feeling decades of loss, and soon loss for eternity, this was not the place or time i wanted to spin into a primal.
Later that evening at my brother and sister-in-law’s I had a needed cry. And then again early this morning, not able to sleep. I went to the basement for some privacy and I let myself be the little boy who hadn’t yet completely given up. For the first time in my life, too late, I let the little boy reach out to hug and love his Mommy, young then, needing to trust she’d be strong enough to accept his love. She wasn’t and It didn’t happen in reality of course.
My other siblings have at least some kind of bond with my parents that I never had a chance at. I’ll remain for the rest of my life an emotional cripple, wandering the world alone, never having formed a childhood bond with loving parents, scarred, unfully formed, on the agonizing journey of working for more out of life through this therapy.
So sorry, Larry. Do take care and time for yourself during this fragile time.
S
Larry,I’m very sorry for the loss of your mother and you are in my thoughtsat this most difficult time.Phil Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:16:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Larry, so sorry for the loss of your mom…look after yourself…hug
Larry, I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your mom. I will be thinking of you. Gretchen
Larry – So many difficult/sad things have been happening in your life of late.
So sorry to hear all you are having to cope with. I am glad for you that you had the time you did at the end with your Mom. Sorry to hear she has died, and that you will have the grief you will…
love,
L.
Margaret – Your posts of your truths and nightmares are harrowing.
Thank you for sharing all you do, and I hope you can find some more peaceful dreams soon.
You really are such a wonderfully inspiring person 🙂
ox L.
Brené Brown on How to Reckon with Emotion and Change Your Narrative
The most powerful stories may be the ones we tell ourselves, says Brené Brown. But beware—they’re usually fiction.
Read more: http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/Brene-Brown-Rising-Strong-Excerpt#ixzz3qU1jyvGF
Hope you like this – esp. the part about how we can “take 20 min. or 20 years” to do the feeling we need to do.
Good one Leslie 😉
Sun in Scorpio. If you believe in astrology, and I believe it a little, you know that sex will be intensified, along with many other things. I liken this time to being like a werewolf, senses are highlighted, I know without a second thought how to do things, how to fix things. But anyway, no fucking for me during the first 2 weeks of sun in scorpio, and most likely there will be no fucking for me during the second 2 weeks of scorpio. I need to say this shit, and this blog is currently the only place I can afford to say it. I need to scream it, I needed to say such shit to my grandmother when she was still alive, but she was so fucked up, all she could do was ignore me. Anyway, I drove Z to get her her fucking takeout dinner, at a different place tonight. I walk the kid’s killer dog, while she is in there salivating over roasted vegetables. As I walk the dog, I see that there are restaurant s in every direction, The smells are killing me, I am so hungry.. Spaghetti house, steak house, jewish food house. I think they were hoarding matzo balls and other stuff at the jewish food house, because no one brought me out any tall stacked rye bread sandwiches full of corned beef. Even though I smelled their food, and even though I wanted it, no one brought it out to me. Neither did the Italian food place. And you know the Italians are really the worst of the worst hoarders. They hoard their dreams of attacking Ethiopia again under their mattresses. And they can barely sleep, because their mattresses are stuffed with meatballs. Mama mia, I am so fucking hungry. Not horribly hungry for sex; my doctor says I need testosterone because all my muscles are gone. My dietician expects me to lose weight, I thought she was just going to tell me what foods to eat. My doctor told me to stop eating red meat, but as sure as shooting I am going to get a big steak Friday night. Now to go get serious and give the cancer dog and cat their morphine. I would say more, but the black cat with the cone on his head wants to rub his moist nose on my hand. He had to have his tail amputated because he got some kind of gash in it. Mama mia. I am fucking miserable. I am still delayed traumatic syndrome from moving to that asshole state in 2005, where there were no people on the streets because of the heat. I find it hard to be around people, but that was fucking ridiculous. And all my job duties had been taken away, all my superman powers were gone. So this adult shit has compounded with my childhood shit, and I will never be free of any of this fucking misery. Damn.
> Larry,
> what you wrote about being with your mom, holding her hand, caressing it, and later on allowing yourself to feel the little boy in you reaching ou, was very touching.
> thinking of you.
> M
Larry, I feel sorry for your mother´s loss
Your writings very touching
Miguel
Larry: I echo the others in expressing my condolences about your mother. I hope you can feel what you need to feel in order to carry through the dark days ahead.
Otto & Miguel, the woman in this ad struck me as a very cunning linguist. Can you help me figure out why?
Guru – do you think possibly this is what drove you to the booze? How soon after did you start boozing? Did you notice any effect at the \time? Etc,Etc…………..et cetera…….
Patrick: That is a notable coincidence that I would post what I perceived as a funny ad for alcohol and then I drink too much just a couple days afterwards, isn’t it? I still only think that was a very small influence despite the advertisement’s powerful way of marketing alcohol as fun and safe. Purveyors of potentially dangerous goods often resort to marketing them as harmless and convivial (ie. “wolf in sheep’s clothing”). Very effective, too! Sex is a strong selling tactic; that advertisement did an exceptional job blending sexual overtones with the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing,
Well at least you seem to have lived to tell the tale…………by the way I think it was cool that you could just say and admit you got drunk without any need for cover stories. On blogs etc there is a lot of conformity and ‘fitting in’ I like the way you have always kept your independence of spirit and just basically being yourself
Larry,
So sorry for your loss. I’m happy for you that you made it to town in time to see her, and that you had some loving caring moments with her before she passed.
Sandy
Thank you everyone for your condolences. I notice they help me remain and cope in the feeling zone of loss, rather than me numbing out into a kind of denial.
Margaret, those moments with Mom that I wrote about that you responded you were touched by, I’m realizing encapsulate why my life turned out as it did. I imagine that in my feelings I will be going back to those moments many many more times in the months and years ahead.
On Tuesday I flew into town in time to see her. The next day I flew back home. On Friday I’ll drive to Winnipeg for her funeral.
Hi Larry
Be easy on yourself. You are going through a very difficult period.
I am thinking of you all the time.
Tom
> got a call from my mom’s great cleaning lady, telling me she noticed my mom was not well, could hardly get down the stairs, and she called a doctor, only the fourth she tried could come in the afternoon.
> in the meantime, after a lot of calls, I got hold of her usual doctor who will come at four, and I will take a taxi soon to go there and to keep an eye on her.
> will be there when the doctor comes, and hear if she has to go to a hospital or not etcetera.
> feel pretty stressed about it.
> contacted her boyfriend, who was taken up by his own family stuff, halfsister who will be there later on, and texted brother who has a funeral of his biological dad today ..
> gave cats big plate of food, ate something myself, cellphone getting charged. will think some more about if I need to do or take something els, and cal a taxi…
> mom might be like’nothing wrong with me’ by time I get there, or probably sleeping which she does a lot lately.
> don’t know if it is her medication, age, the tick bite, or somthing else. her back hurt, and the back of her head, which reminds me of my meningitis..
>
> ok, off now to face things and in the meantime look after myself..
> M
Margaret, I hope your mom is OK. It’s great that her doctor will see her at home. They won’t do that here. Phil
> I felt really worn out when I returned from my mother yesterday.
> luckily my halfsister and her husband had gone there too and brought me home.
> we have talked with her for at least three hours, including the doctor, trying to convey to her it was becoming harder for her to be on her own, specially as she refuses to accept more organized help.
> the doctor was kind of halfhearted, while his input might have been listened to by my mom, but he remained rather on the safe side.
>
> I will spare you all the details, but managed to express all I had to say, this is what I realized myself this morning, being surprised at how relaxed I felt in comparison with the frustration I still felt when I got to bed.
>
> she kept saying she did not need more help, and that she could never leave her house, etcetera only focusing on her own point of view and opinion, forgetting that morning she was almost falling down the stairs and would have if her cleaning lady would not have been there.
>
> I told her it is ok she forgets stuff and we don’t blame her for anyting, as she gets very defensive. but I added we want the best for her and have a better overview as we remember more and that it would therefor be nice if she’d accept what we tell her instead of turning everything in endless discussions.
>
> but what finally felt important, was that I said:’mom, if I could still see well, I would not mind driving over here daily if necessary to help you stay here, but I can’t , and neither can my brother or half sister. you should think of us too, and about how I lay awake all night when you try to call me on the phone but do something wrong with it, and I only see you have tried to reach me, and don’t answer the phone when I try to call you.
>
> then I must decide whether I get up and order a taxi and come all the way over here or wait until the morning until the nurse comes by.
>
> that is ok for a few times, but you can’t expect us to live like that for years.
>
> we tried it out three times if she could make a call with the phone, but every time she forgot she needed to push the little green telephone to make it ring..
>
> the doctor thought he could show us how to do it, wiht his cellphone, letting my mom put in all the numbers of my phone number, dictating them, as we had done before, but then he added himself and now push the green telephone, which already to me made little sense as a try to see if she could still do it by herself..
>
> but hey, she pushed the wrong button even then, to my and my sisters secret pleasure, as that doctor did not seem to take us too seriously about the problems and the insecurity.
>
> if she falls, and can’t even make a call, that is very unsafe.
>
> anyway, after all those frustrating hours she did come to the point where she promised that when a room would become available at the nursing home, she would not refuse it.
> it might still be a long time before that happens as other cases might still have priority. and she is bound to forget the promise she made, intntionally or not…
>
> but at least I said a lot of things I needed to say, including finding her selfish at some moments.
> at some point she muttered something like not having any choice to make and I said she did have choices, the choices whether to be cross and uncooperative all the time, or the choice of listening to us and trying to see our point of view and take in account our emotions and our lifes whe also want to have some time and energy for.
>
> I think it will come down to waithing until a place opens up in the home, and then she has an entire week to decide, in which we will all have to join forces as all those preliminary discussions soak up energy and have little effect.
>
> still I feel good about having done what felt right yesterday, I got a message she was really not good in the morning, and took my responsitlity to go there. she was ok more or less by the time I got there, but still I had to tell the doctor the details of what happened in the morning as she did not remember one thing about it.
> and he needed to be forced to look at the fact it is increasingly becoming necessary to start considering the home, as he has a lot to say about it and actually works with the home’s council I think.
>
> big sigh…
>
> I also told her I worry about my brother and all the energy he invests every week, after working very hard al week.
>
> it is irritating and hurts she tends to make fun of us being so worried, while I was on the phone with my brother she kept pulling faces at my halfsister as to say, well, you know, rolling her eyes etcetera..
> she is so full of herself, and does not take us seriously , says sometimes yes while she thinks no, and occasionally just lies to get away with stuff.
>
> it is sad as I feel how I am emotionally drifting away from her, a distance seems to be growing, and she must feel the same way as often the goodbye kiss to me is more distant than the hug with others, but I guess that is ok if we both feel like that at moments, that ‘s the way it is..
> at other moments, like at the hospital, I could take her in my arms and rock her and whisper to her to comfort her when she was very distressed.
>
> amazing how I still seem to tend to look for things I should feel guilty about, isn’t it?
> ok, so now I am gonna relax and try to enjoy the mometary peace of having done what was right, have done all I could and now deserve time for myself, and the cats, smiley.
>
> my brother comes this afternoon, I won’t go along to her if he comes here first, if he goes there and brings her here for a brief visit that’s fine.
> I do feel vaguely lonely and sad, but that is just the reality of my actual life, and I will do my best to count my blessings and make the best of things anyway.
> M
> another thing that left us speechless yesterday for a few moments , was when I was talking to my mom about how we had been doing everything so far to help her stay in her house, and that if we said it was gradually becoming more difficult, that was because we wanted the best for her, and for her to be safe.
> at some point when talking about , or asking her about why she felt so reluctant, she said:’I feel like you just want to put me in a home to get rid of me.’…
> it stunned us for a moment she could say something like that with all we do for her all the time, and actually it hurt, as she still does not acknowledge our love really, seemingly, and does not trust our motives.
> it is very sad, and all we could say was but mom, how on earth can you think something like that!
> my sister said she would come and vissit her and take her out probably more thatn she did now, and I could turn it into something more lighthearted when I added and your visitors would not be nagging you al the time or try to tell you what you should be doing or not, you’d actually be more free than you are now.
>
> i do feel sad, about there being so little attention from her part for what we want, and why, so little concern . we are just second line characters in her life, she does care about to some extend, if it does not interfere too much with hers, and specially with what she expects to be possible time with her boyfriend. yesterday she did manage to call him back, when he also tested that capacity, which kind of shows how big her priorities are. it does not mean though she can always do it, just this time she could say ‘see!? I can do it!’ while all the other attempts failed using my umber.
>
> guess I have to let go as much as possible, take care of her to the degree that is possible, and accept the pain of getting less than what I need.
> there is a lot of sadness, and some anger, and wanting to protect my brother as well.
> feel sad right now.
> M
> my brother just came by with my mom, and it actually was nice. speciallly after he told me on the side she did not know what happened yesterday anymore, but had told him spontaneously she would accept a room in the home if one would become available. feels like such a relief, it is nice for once to have her cooperative, in a good mood, cheerful and all, so some of our conversation yesterday maybe did have some effect after all, who knows.
> she will probably go back to her no at some point, but at least this is a progress, tow days in a row a clear yes to the home!
> we will buy her another phone for her birthday, with four pictures on the screen which she only needs to touch to make a call to that person.
> hopefully that works better!
> so well, some good feeling, but I did feel some concern for my brother sounding very tired.
> he did cheer up playing with the cats, smiley and they seem to like him a lot as well.
> M
>
>
My sincere apologies to you, Margaret, for stealing away attention. Driving north on I-35 from Forest Lake, Minnesota to Hinckley, Minnesota (Stayed in the same motel as where “Fargo” was filmed). Beautiful sunset behind the evergreens. Let me indulge, OK?
1993 (Chevy Caprice Rental Car, nice stereo)
…just memories…
Never mind. Sorry I posted it. It was an epiphany for me. One of the most profound experiences for me at the time.
Goodbye and all over now.
The landscape was so perfect for the music. Choreography sinking in everywhere.
Yeah, yeah…cry, cry. Just me, cry.
Actually I made it all the way to Duluth/Lake Superior that night under a commanding full moon. No one gives a shit about this at all. It’s fine. Let me write it out, OK?
Lots of feeling in those posts Guru. Too bad you can’t explore them more, instead of being apologetic.
Very nice video and song, Guru. Very spiritual. Music does bring up a lot of feelings: sad, lonely, joy, that words alone cannot express.
Hang in, Margaret. It sounds like you are doing all the right things, and good that all your family is helping.
S
Sylvia, I……
Those four posts I typed above; you have any idea how smashing drunk I was when I typed those posts out last night? I wouldn’t be surprised if I was sitting there with a BAC of .15-.20 or more when I typed that. Sorry.
Now the questions of, “Good God, why did I do that?” and I’m wanting to quickly detoxify from that now.
Thank you for responding, Sylvia. I’m worried about why I did that last night. That was the hardest drinking session I had in in a very long time. Several years.
Part of the problem is when you drink too much, you start to lose your better judgement to stop drinking any further and the activity begets itself, much like a feedback loop.
Man, I really feel bad about this. I end up apologizing to myself in so many ways.
I’m just shaking my head here right now, that’s all
Ouch. That was not good.
> Furu, it sounded to me like we are in a similar feeling, well, anyway mine being nooone is really interested in me, or if they are momentarily they will quickly lose interest…and then came Sylvia’s comment which helped to see some rays of light through the unsetting fog of feeling depressed.
> the visit yesterday was surprisingly good, but the rest of the day it felt bad there were no phonecalls, no e-mails, no comments on the blog, only passing time with house chores, studying, reading, playing with the cats..
> still a bit of a fever does not help either..
> hope there will be some sunshine today, these cloudy chilly days get to me after a while..
> one good thing though at the start of this day is that the smaller, more reserved cat came up to my pillow , I did feel a timid paw pushing softly on the blanket near my shoulder, and let him in under the covers, and he snuggled up really close to me, and first I thought he was having asthma but then it became clear it was just the uptimes to a real long set of purring, and he even ended up falling asleep there.. that must have been a bit too much all at once for him, smiley, as he woke up rightaway again and left for the open air.
> I noticed how all the time with him there I was smiling, and am smiling right now when writing this.
> one of the most disgraceful things about us humans is the way many of us treat animals, instead of giving them the respect they deserve, and I mean all animals in general.
> they are pure.
> M
Thanks Margaret. I just didn’t like what I did last night. No one was hurt or anything, aside from wreaking havoc with my brain’s dendrites. Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch. No arguments here about how cold and emotionally distant many people seem to be. (Not talking about you or Sylvia, of course, just in general).
I’m glad you’re having fun with your new life post-Molimet. I just couldn’t have pets. I have enough trouble looking after one animal as it is: myself.
Quote: “I have enough trouble looking after one animal as it is: myself.”
I was under the impression that Gurus were quite capable of looking after themselves … and an ‘Ultimate Guru’ should be even more serence, content and know how to look after himself than the rest of us. Add to that, I thought you thought of yourself as a “Superstar” as well. So what’s all this about having trouble taking care of yourself????
That might be a REAL topic to post on this blog. Yeah!
Jack
Jack: I have never regretted being THE Ultimate Superstar Guru. Never! Very special individuals such as yourself remind me why I have never regretted being as such.
Guru,How does one achieve Guru Superstardom?Phil Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:17:32 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sorry, Phil. I can’t tell you the secret, for it would strengthen my competition. Just be happy I revealed the reason why I can’t reveal how to be a superstar guru. That in itself is a precious pearl of wisdom for you to enjoy and learn from today.
Ha Ha!! “A pearl of wisdom” I would never have known that, but for your telling.
Jack
Thanks Superstar Guru
Primal Institute wrote:
Howdy,
THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented on: Remembering Summer part 4.
Comment URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/remembering-summer-part-4#comment-22561) Post URL: (https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/remembering-summer-part-4)
This was in response to Phil:
It’s not the regrets that are so illuminating, BUT the troubles you tell us you are having, but never revealing what those troubles are. Seems you are ready with your pain killing drug to get through them … yet complaining (seemingly) that they exist.
Unless … your real trouble is drinking too much. 🙂 🙂 .
Perhaps … just perhaps; something worth investigating. Yeah!!!!
Oh I forgot! … you seem to need to not let ME know of your travails … or so I gathered
Jack
I don’t care if you knew I drank too much on an isolated day. I can recover and walk away knowing even I can use a little improvement on very rare occasions.
Once I get completely back to normal, I am going to consider donating another pint of blood.
Why don’t you join me in this noble pursuit, Jack? It certainly would contribute more to society than spending much of your last days trying to harangue maternal orphans from the safety of your keyboard.
A lot of people would find it morally outrageous to feed your animal pet with alcohol. So….why is it morally OK to feed alcohol to ourselves?
Blah.
It sounds like you took care of yourself by drowning your sorrows in alcohol.Phil
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:49:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: To be honest, I think Larry’s mother dying and Margaret’s own troubles dealing with her mother are more important topics than my drinking too much. I shouldn’t make a bigger deal of this than what it was. I’m just going to have to be more hyper-vigilant towards recognizing & feeling all the negative sensations that assault me periodically and/or unpredictably.
Guru,I thin there’s plenty of space here for you too, but I hearwhat you’re saying.Phil
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:23:27 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Now that something well worth investigating. I would have thought.
Jack
Margaret,
With the elder care that’s been in my hands this past couple years, I can relate to much of what you’re saying as you describe all that you are coping with. Dementia was setting in with Dad before he died and luckily, so far, Mum doesn’t have it but she lives alone in the house now and doesn’t want to move. I’m working on her about that but since she’s not showing any signs of dementia or cognitive impairment I won’t pull Power of Attorney just yet.
Dad used to have the exact same problem with the phone. The doctors and social workers said that is very common. They described it as the signal from the eyes to the brain gets distorted. I watched Dad dial each number as he said it loud. His eyes thought his finger was on the right numbers – but it wasn’t.
Another thing they said was common was his loss of insight. He used to have the insight to stay off ladders because of his bad knees there was too much risk of falling. Once he lost his insight, he’d climb up on the damned ladder not realizing that he couldn’t do that anymore.
When he was aware of things he understood what was happening, then a curtain would close and he’d get paranoid and stubborn thinking I was trying to take advantage of him. “stick us in a home and forget about us – and get to our bank accounts” and so on. – Also common.
Mix these common/normal symptoms with an individual and the severity can vary from one person to the next. I hope to reassure you that what your Mum is doing is normal and to be expected.
As for myself, because it’s my parent I’m taking care of, the feeling is like a child – helpless and frightened, not knowing what to do – “this is too big for me”. But knowing those things…that it’s normal… helped me. It minimized feeling such a stomach-punch as it unfolded in front of me. Afterwards I go home and feel bit by bit of the feeling, then I could get up and be an adult. Now-a-days I feel my alone-ness about it. Alone weaves through everything for me, but my brother being dead triggers alone when I take care of Mum. To tell you the truth, I almost feel jealous of you because you have others to help you. I have help too! But that alone feeling is so damned persistent.
One more thing. We have it here in North America and I believe it’s in Europe too… a medical alarm. It’s a pendant I forced Mum to agree to. She must wear it 24/7. It only works when she is at home or in her yard but they recommend she wear it 24/7 so that she never forgets to put it back on. She can press the button when she needs help and someone will come on to a speaker for her. It also detects if she had a fall and can’t press the button for herself. It saved my uncle last month. Maybe that’s something you can look into, to put you at ease about your mother until she goes into a care home.
Sandy.
Sandy – Thank you so much for your informative post! It gives me a better understanding of some practical aspects, and in addition the description of your feelings and where you go with them is so honest and helpful.
I am glad you can support Margaret in this way – as you tackle and do all that you are with your Mom Margaret.
ox L.
Very revealing Sandy about the difficulties of dealing, alone, with aging parents and the feelings it brings up, things that most of us want to run from and that many of us will have to or have had to face. You sound considerate and courageous in dealing with them, and in trying to be helpful to Margaret.
> just called my mom, to remind her of the freshly cooked food she can warm up.
> to my great and pleasant surprise, she brought up the subject of wanting to go to the nursing home herself this time, in a very positive manner!!
> I suspect all the talking we did about it made her go over it once more with her boyfriend, who probably reinforced it being a good decision to make.
>
> she was actually cheerful, about the piano they had and she was not too sure about it but seemed to rmember she had gone there in the afternoon and had played on it.
> she actually said she wishes to go there as sooon as possible.
>
> she said she also loves her house, but it might make a nice change and be very pleasant there as well.
> hurray hurray, and she added she had fine children and it was nice not to have to argue about things.
>
> boy, it is still sinking in, this is three days in a row she actually mentions agreeing to go there at some point.
> I called my brother to tell him, and we will get in touch with the home again to inquire about where she stands on the waiting list and tell them it is getting more urgent.
>
> it felt so good, to be able to talk with her in such a nice warm and positive way for a change!
> but then, while listening to some dramatic tango music they happened to play on television, suddenly I got sad, thinking about how it also would be a step into the direction of well, the last episode of life..
> it is like a steady ongoing kind of saying goodbye, and now without the anger and irritation the not wanting to lose comes up,together with a renewed feeling of love.
>
> but hey, we have to wait as to when she gets in, and hopefully she can have many more good years there in that case.
>
> in any case it is nice to experience my mom still can be this way, positive and cooperative and warm, and enthousiastic about the piano there and its possibilites , she was already inquiring about if I still had sheet music here, smiley.
> this is how I do love my mom to be…
>
> and Guru, Phil said what I was gonna say as well, plenty of space here , your stuff was also important in its own way, and gave some more for us to know about you, thanks for showing yourself in that vulnerable and honest way, if you would not have told us noone would have known you were drunk while writing that comment, as it was well written and sounded like genuine nostalgy for a good time you had there.
> M
Thank you, Margaret, for your nice words. I honestly don’t remember your ever saying I had written something well.
Would you suggest that I start drinking whole kegs of beer or caskets of wine and brandy all by myself if I truly wish to become a best-selling author, then?
Margaret, sounds like a good day for Mom and you. Glad she is warming up to the idea of having fun things to do and accepting more help in the idea of a care home. Sandy’s advice sounds good about having some monitoring with a pendant devise if that is available.
Guru, try a candy bar instead, that’s what I do when I want to be a little “bad.” Even though as the saying goes: “candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker,” you don’t get a hangover.
S
Sylvia: Yeah, I like candy well enough. That’s a good idea about finding something sweet to snack on if the mood strikes for a night out carousing. I have to say part of the problem last night was having friends over here, which made the temptation to over-indulge that much stronger since they were “partying it up” as well.
Sylvia, I find it interesting how your outlook on Primal patients is vastly different than mine when I was considering going to LA back in the 1990’s. Back before I went, I considered Primal patients as Gods because by all indications they endured the hardest therapy in the world. A nuclear Armageddon of childhood emotional hell for each and every patient. They would earn my awe and I would place them on a super-machismo pedestal as if they were Navy Seal trainees who survived “Hell Week”.
You, on the other hand, seem to view us patients as fallible beings who need encouragement and support. Your approach towards current patients is much more appropriate than mine was. When you see us here on the blog with all our faults and foibles in full view to you, do you find this discouraging to you as a prospective patient?
Hi Guru. I must say that as I read the “Journals” and “newsletters” beginning in the 70’s I felt the same as you did. These people were ‘gods’ to me. Not only for what they went through but what they gained. They always seemed vulnerable too like little children who were not afraid to show all their weaknesses.
I guess that I have felt enough now to consider I am in the same boat, a kid again and vulnerable. Some times life circumstances and age weakens the defense system and it is easier to feel than not to. I took that chance. Though I believe in the warnings about not feeling too much without guidance.
I’ve seen too many of my own faults and self-centeredness or foibles to judge that in anyone else. Rather than discouraging, it is affirming to me reading and writing here. I think we all want to improve. Nice of you to ask.
Larry, I haven’t entirely caught up here, just not enough time, but I am sorry that your mom died. I look forward to reading more about her and your relationship and feelings about it here, in days to come.
> Sandy, Sylvia, Leslie, thanks.
> I inquired once here about such pendants, but tehy seem less sophisticated here as I don’t recall they would notice someone has had a fall.
> it made me smile you said you forced your mom to wear it, just thinking of the endless struggle it would take with mine, boy…
> and she would take it off and misplace it most certainly, and push the button just to give it a try, etcetera.
> but it still is an option, yes.
> the other thing is that service requires the names of a number of people living not too far away who can go and check on her first, which is not that easy. her cleaning lady already did volunteer if we would want her to be number one on the list. she is really great, does all kind of things that go far beyond her normal task on her one morning a week, and says she is very fond of my mom, which must be true. she is also very cheerful and patient, so we are very lucky to have her take care of my mom once a week.
>
> it sounded pretty painful at times with your dad, Sandy, I notice how knowing it is ‘normal’ does help on some level, but leaves a lot of hurt to be felt as well.
> is your mom still in good health physically?
> does she live close to where you live?
> a warm hug, M
“Apparently, now and again adults take the time to sit down and contemplate what a disaster their life is. They complain without understanding and, like flies constantly banging the same old windowpane, they buzz around, suffer, waste away, get depressed then wonder how they got caught up in this spiral that is taking them where they don’t want to go…. The truth is they are like everyone else: nothing more than kids without a clue about what has happened to them, acting big and tough when in fact all they want is to burst into tears.”
written by the 12 year old character in the book “The Elegance of the Hedgehog” by Muriel Barbery
– love when I come across passages and books like this!!
L.
Looking at reviews of it on the internet, it seems like an unusual novel. What brought it to your attention, Leslie?
Recommended by 2 friends who read it and loved it. Just started but like it lots already!!
I feel guilty that because I live far away, I’ve been able to avoid much of the responsibility of caring for aging parents. Also I was taken up with Noreen dying at the time when Mom began needing a lot of care and nudging away from independent living in her own home. Of my 5 siblings, my retired brother and his wife, and my youngest sister working part time, took up the bulk of watching out for Mom and caring for her after Dad died, then after her heart attack, then during her transition into dementia and living in a nursing home and ongoing.
They and another sister put together the all the details of Mom’s funeral, held on Saturday, only four days after Mom died. I gently asked but couldn’t get an answer as to why the urgency for the funeral to be held so soon. I had hoped the funeral would be a week later, and give me time to get back to Winnipeg to help them arrange it. I’m glad I was at Mom’s funeral, but because I hadn’t helped with any of the planning of it, again, typically, I felt like an outsider of my family.
Before the service began, when immediate family was in the family room, the funeral director asked us whether at the end of the service any family member wanted to carry the urn with Mom’s ashes, leading a procession out of the hall, to the hearse waiting to lead us to the grave site. No one wanted to. He then asked whether at the end of the grave site service, any family member wanted to lower the urn into the grave. I volunteered.
It was finally something I could do to feel a part of a contribution to Mom’s funeral ceremony. I discovered the lowering of the urn into the grave to be an intense symbolic and emotional act, the reason why no one else wanted to do it. I would have been very troubled afterward by the feelings it brought up had I not been able to cry them out and make connections about Mom now being gone forever after what seems a short time here in life during which I never really connected with her.
Staying at my brother and sister-in-law’s, several times I went into their basement bedroom for some privacy to have a grieving cry. After the funeral they were exhausted, but from Mom’s death until after the funeral, they never did have a cry. I felt bad for them that they are afraid of those emotions and keep them pent up inside.
My brother told me after Mom’s funeral, that he is now realizing that after Dad died, 11 years of taking care of Mom was a distraction from having to face and grieve Dad’s death. Now with no more visiting Mom in the nursing home and seeing to her affairs, the extra time on his hands leaves him with suddenly for the first time having to face that he is parentless. I wish I could help him deal with it.
I feel bad for my poor sister whose husband died two months ago, and now lost her Mom who she visited and looked out for in the nursing home several times a week. She’s unable to sleep well. I suggested to her that if she can let herself cry, sleep might come more easily. She told me that she does cry but always ends up with a headache.
I sometimes think that in retirement I should move back to Winnipeg to have family nearby as I get old and decrepit. But after Mom’s funeral, what motivates me more to want to move back is to be of support to them. I wish I could help them somehow in their grief, and in the further difficulties, loss and grief that life is sure to bring as we age.
But I do like Saskatoon, and have opportunities here for joy and connections with friends and community and a meaningful life. I’d have to find those all over again should I move to Winnipeg, which the City, the surrounding landscape, and the climate I don’t like as much as Saskatoon. So I’m torn, because I also want to be near family to support them in their time of grief.
Larry,Lowering the urn with your mother’s ashes into the grave sounds veryintense. It’s good though that you found that as a way to contributeand also that you found a place where you could express your feelings of grief.What you said here reminds me of my mothers funeral, which is one ofthe most traumatic memories from my childhood. I didn’t express myfeelings much at that time, and besides the grief, it became associated with allthe other repressed feelings about her. The funeral was a very bad experience forme.I hope your siblings and other family members can work through their griefso that they can recover, especially your sister who just lost her husband,which is so much all at once.Phil
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:37:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Larry: Can you convince the family to come to Saskatoon? If not, how about living someplace like Moosomin or Esterhazy, SK where it’s halfway between the two cities? Small towns are cheaper places to live for retired people.
UG moving to a town that has less to offer because it is smaller holds no appeal for me, nor does moving to somewhere where I don’t know anyone.
Larry: The idea I had was simply that you’d be roughly equidistant from all the people you’d want to see. Never mind, just a wild longshot of an idea.
I don’t think there are any half measures for me. More likely I will have to make one big, difficult choice.
If you own your place in Saskatoon, how about renting out the place for two or three years and renting a place yourself in Winnipeg for the same time period? You can be with the family for an extended period of grieving and then come back home to renew what you once had in Saskatoon.
Have you ever lived in another place UG? It takes time and work to make a new life and a new community. Once you have it it’s not easy to give up. And returning to a previous home after years away doesn’t mean renewing life as it was. Life moves on and returning means to some extent starting over. Lots of time is wasted on both ends, time that could be spent making life richer and deeper by settling in one place.
Yeah, I guess…Well, OK Larry I just wanted to try to provide some helpful suggestions in the face of the extraordinary circumstances you are undergoing. I felt like you were slightly offended by my ideas, so I will let this go.
I have lived in several US states, only to realize 329 million Americans are going to care more about what they had for dinner last night than the most important accomplishment of my life regardless of where I go.
UG -Have you ever heard or seen the Cdn. TV show “Corner Gas”. Probably not, but I think life in the towns you are suggesting could be similar to that for Larry 🙂 – & maybe not as many laughs.
I do like your idea further on of not having to make huge, definite decisions and would say going someplace for a few months is a good idea before a big move.
L
Leslie, haha…No I’ve never seen the show, but I am gathering an idea of what you are alluding to. I can see the second idea I had would be more tenable than the first. Larry could still go back to Saskatoon several times per year to keep the community ties from being completely severed for a couple years. (Just treat Saskatoon friends like the family he visits a few times per year for a couple years, promising to be back later).
But Larry is right, though, it is hard to rebuild community involvement anyplace new. I remember leaving LA and how badly a Chinese lady downstairs was going to miss me, and so forth. It’s never fun packing up and leaving a community to see strangers elsewhere, but Larry does have a head start with family in Winnipeg.
> Larry,
> those words ‘gone forever’ were hard for me to read, the total impact seems to be ostponed somehow until there really is no other choice, I felt myself like instantly backing away emotionally in some way, almost a physical feeling ..
> irreversibility is so hard to accept when something dreadful happens.
> no no no seems to be the instinctive response, which I had when my husband died .
> with my dad somehow it was different, maybe because i
> I was there almost immediately and could put my arms around him and cry, cried hard holding him, and also said thanks to him..
> maybe one’s mother is often the hardest loss to face, well, apart from a partner or a child of course..
> permanent loss of a loved one is always so painful, I had never expected to grieve so long and intensely about my cat, it was much much worse than any primal feeling I had ever had, maybe because it was pure and direct pain in the present, not just processing and cleaning up old stuff..
> M
‘gone as long as I live’ feels more pulsatingly real to me for some reason. Feels less detached and more immediate.
Guru,I’ve yet to see anyone come back to life. It’s the finality of death that makesit so difficult to deal with.Phil Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:25:52 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: “Gone as long as I live” feels more right to me, because it’s an all-purpose statement that perfectly fits both believers and non-believers in any sort of hereafter. If someone is gone as long as I live, then I die with no hereafter, I will never know they will be gone after I die myself, will I? If we die and we reunite with loved ones afterwards (infinitesimally small possibility), that statement “gone as long as I live” has you covered for that scenario, as well.
“Gone forever” just feels too artificially depressing by the weight of its own words to me, that’s all.
Guru,A believe in the hereafter seems to me by design intended to lessonthe impact of the very painful finality of loved ones deaths. So the purposeof that belief might be just to avoid dealing with the emotional pain.Since the hereafter is not evident, that’s the part that seems artificialto me. I used to engage in a fantasy that my mother would get well,and after her death, somehow magically come back to life and becomea real mom for me. Not that I really thought that could happen. Phil
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:49:22 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil and Guru, sometimes I dream about my mom gone 4 yrs. now. In it she doesn’t have dementia. My dad gone several more yrs now. is always recovering and getting better. Haven’t had that dream for a few months but to me they are alive in my thoughts as if here when I’m asleep. Maybe that’s kinda an afterlife. Feels real at the time.
Sylvia,I guess our parents and other important people live on in ourmemories and dreams, as you say. The sad fact for me however is thatI am blocked as to any positive memories of my mother. There area few neutral ones and the rest are all negative, which I connect to in a deeperway over time. I would like to believe that the positive memories are therefor me to recover but that might not be the case.Phil Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:29:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Very sorry it was like that for you, Phil. You seem to have a strength, though from feeling what you have.
Sylvia, your dreams sound like they would have a heavy emotional content which would feel vividly real to anyone. My sleep is simply an on/off switch with no dreams at all from what I can tell. “Time for sleep, Guru”, next thing I know 8 hours have passed.
Guru, how interesting that you don’t dream; or do you and not recall. A case for the scalp electrode sleep monitors.
Maybe nothing is bothering you and you get it out of your system enough during the day.
Some of my biggest feelings have come from when I’m asleep and undefended.
After Noreen and I moved to Saskatoon, my parents talked about driving out here to visit us. I knew that was unlikely to happen after Dad died and more and more Mom didn’t want to leave her home. Now that they are both gone, I feel sad that I will never know a visit from my parents to my home in Saskatoon.
I know what you mean about being attached to your Kitty. My dog has gotten me through some fragile times and I feel like I invested a lot of emotions in him, counting on him getting me through sadness. Lucky that I found out how to help his kidney problem through diet.
Hi Larry
Again, my condolences with the passing away of your mum.
I will never forget, after my mum passing away, Gretchen asked me ……how does it feel being an orphan?
It took me by surprise. Not that it should’ve, as I “always” felt like an orphan. Every documentary about the Romanian orphans and orphanages were about me.
It is now almost four years since mum passed away. There is hardly a day that she doesn’t come into my thoughts. The urge to run out to the cemetery to be next to her grave site, is still very compelling. I fantasize that by me just being close to her, I will ‘really be close to her’. Somehow she’ll reach out and comfort me.
It is the same delusion I had starting therapy, thinking I fly over to LA, GET “SOMETHING”, and then get back on the plane and live happily ever after.
Surprise! I didn’t get that “SOMETHING”. But then again, I didn’t know what that “SOMETHING” is, nor how to ask for it.
But you all know by now what I am talking about, right? Being close to MUM. Looking into her eyes. Being comforted. Yes. That’s the main theme now. Wanting to be comforted.
Anyway Larry. You are in a quandary regarding your siblings. You feel compelled to go back and give them support. How about you? Do you think you will get support from them? Have you ever got support from them? Did they come and visit you and Noreen? And now, are they standing by you in your grief?
Not that you need my advice, but I’d go slow. Finish work, see what life is like when you are semi retired, perhaps visit more often and take your time to make a decision, which would be life changing for you.
You may laugh. But when I read your posting about you at the funeral, it occurred to me that the way you write, phrase your thoughts, actually I find comforting.
Tom
I didn’t laugh Tom. Can’t imagine why I would. Thanks for sharing, and for your advice, and for your compliments.
Some of my family did come and visit Noreen and I. They came also to give me support in her dying and death. As did two of my closest friends in Manitoba. Their support was important to my mental/emotional health, and I feel closer to them for it. My family and those two friends in Manitoba stand by me in grief by inviting me to stay with them during the important family holidays Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving. When I stay with family, they let me cry when I tell them I need to, even though they don’t know how to themselves. I notice though that my tough youngest brother is softening some, and admitting to letting grief overcome him in crying. Perhaps he is realizing that crying is not the end of the world nor the end of his masculinity, and is in fact a sign of his caring and humanity and good mental/emotional health.
I’m going to have to put my response to Sylvia down here. Sorry to interrupt the dialogue between Tom and Larry.
Sylvia: It has been like that for many years for me. I just say, “I need to go to sleep”. I walk to my bed, roll over to one side, and anywhere from 5-8 hours pass by when it only seems like 2 seconds passed me by.
On rare occasions I remember funny little dreams that amuse me for an hour or two, but mostly it’s just….nothingness.
Researchers from Harvard University are starting to understand that sleep is a “waste disposal” function for the brain. Your brain cells shrink up to 40 percent in size during sleep, so that glial fluid passes in between your brain cells to clean out all the waste products you accumulated during your conscious waking hours. In other words, the brain sorts out all the conscious concept trash your accumulated during the day and sorts out what is useful through a waste-cleaning process (sorting out trash from treasure from the previous day’s experiences).
Hi USG
Interesting about your sleep.
I usually fall asleep quickly enough, but wake up two-three time a night. Sometimes i have a lot of trouble going back to sleep. I lie awake wondering what’s going on. There is no coherent thought though. Lately, I realise that I want something. I want comforting, and then I could sleep.
However, I hardly ever dream. maybe two-three times a year, if I am lucky. When I used to dream, I had some kind of dialogue going on, don’t know with whom though. At times I would wake up and quickly forget the dialogue.
At times I would get into a feeling. But not lately. I think I am defending against my major angst: DEPRIVATION. The longing for my mum, contact with her. Physical contact. The need to feel close to her.
This is hard.
Tom
Well I don’t know what to say, Tom, about your longing for your mother. I can only suggest you can continue talking about it here? All you want?
I just think I probably run into enough conscious trash in daily life that I can’t wait to utilize the waste disposal services of my sleep, so it’s never a problem.
So good to enjoy coming on the blog and reading all that everyone is writing!
Sylvia – I really hope you can find a way to The Retreat. Not only will you love it !, but everyone there will love having you 🙂
L
Leslie, aren’t you nice. What do you think about these non-dreamers? I’ve known a couple of people who rarely dream and they seemed to me to be very together usually able to confront things bothering them during the day and have restful sleep.
> before I read the 28 other comments to follow, feel like replying to Gurus smart version of ‘she will be gone for as long as I live’. I kind of like the broad covering and undeniability of it combined.
> and speaking for myself, specially with my dad I seem to occasionally still turn to him,which feels helpful, maybe something similar like dreaming about Barry and having a convesation with him that helps me. people we loved are so engrained in our systems they, in my perception, start to form an intrinsicate part of our systems.
> it does not really matter if they still exist somewhere or not, as in our minds they do..
> of course it is very appealing to fantasize about all we loved, inclluding pets in my case, still being somewhere and being entirely happy..
> that last bit seems to matter to me most, suddenly I feel teary..
> maybe it says something about what I long for..
> no hurt, no hurting each other, feeling good being together and understanding and loving each other, maybe heaven is the virtual condensation of all what we long for, for things to finally get right..
> and for me thinking about those who I lost in a way that they now a
> are kind and knowing and supportive, does help me in hard times occasionally.
> I am sure I will think like that about my mother and what she would say to me if she were there, when she won’t be there anymore.
>
> that seems to be a side effect of having someone in your heart..
> which does not exclude all the pain of not having them around in real life of course, most of the time specially in the beginning..
> therefor I feel so sorry for you Guru and Phil for the love you did not get for different reasons, while you both deserved and needed it.
> M
I’ve still been thinking today about what I wrote here yesterdayon having no good memories of my mother. If I could recover and remembergood ones that would be something to hold onto. It might be that I’ve repressed the good with the bad since the whole thing is traumaticfor me. Also the good is also repressed being painful because there wasn’t enough of it or it was permanently lost But as I’ve progressed with therapy nothinggood has come up concerning my mother but it has concerning other people.Phil
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:57:56 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I honestly don’t know what I can say to this, Margaret, beyond what I’ve already said. Thank you for your sympathy as always, but..Well, I do look at my mother’s picture from time to time and see my own soul staring back at me. I just know, though, she’d also want me to forget about her in terms of practical life. Sounds cruel, sounds harsh…but I need to be pragmatic and functioning rather than entranced by the promises of the distant past. She would totally understand that.
> Phil,
> that shows you are on the right track, that good stuff from others has come up.
> it is really so sad not to have any good memory at all about your mom.
> and yet you are a very nice person, smart and kind.
> and you have built yourself a good life, more than many of us can say, me included.
> very welldone and still doing well.
> M
Margaret, you are too kind. It’s often hard for me to appreciatewhat I do have. Phil
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:50:57 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I tried to have selective amnesia, but nothing happened. But anyway, it is not my imagination, Z’s finances and needs, and the complexity, and the sheer amount of them–this drives me up a f’imng wall. Then she comes in and says, i need a place to keep this tire (spare tire I threw on the back porch after paying 500 bucks for new tires). Paying the 500 bucks for the tires and getting through the actual bullshjit of getting them put on the car was exhausting. So anyway, happy veterans day to me. I guess staying home from work, paying bills, taking care of her needs and all the animal’s needs, and trying to somewhat follow the dietician’s orders–i guess i am luckier than 90 percent of the rest of the living things on the planet, i am not a polar bear who has no ice to sleep on, i am not being bombed out of my arabic home by Russians and NATO. Count my f’ing blessings. f’ me.
Gad you’re “trying to somewhat follow the dietician’s orders”, Otto. But “everything” should not be your job to do — it seems like too much of the time, you accept that it is.
“Glad”, not “Gad”.
and more insanity, and more. tired of it
> guru,
> I think it is fine you picture what she might tell you.
> she’d want you to be as happy as possible and to have as good a life as possible, not necessarily financially, but you know, in general..
> M
> just heard on the news about a kid from 11 years old that has to come before court in the US for shooting a neighborr kid, and an 8 year old as well, for hiting and killing a one year old for crying, while their respective mothers where out in a nightclub…
>
> no comment..
> M
Margaret – all that shooting – it’s sort of ‘normal’ around here. There is even now a ‘debate’ about the morality of going back in time and killing Baby Hitler. A ‘competition’ started by the ‘respectable’ NY Times…………..by such jokes are certain versions of history constantly re-enforced. But this is funny anyway if people do not want to be too serious about it
> my point not being fire arms but kids getting dragged before court.
> the 8 year old just hit, or slapped the one year old which died. very serious, but the real problem is the absent parent care and not the ‘criminal’ kid..
> M
I arrived back home Monday evening. I was hurting, emotionally and physically. For 10 days I’d been away from my normal life. The surgery, the antibiotics, the catheter, the polymyalgia, Mom’s death, the funeral, the travel, all took it’s tollon me. So back home this Tues and Wed I vegetated. I was literally in aching pain and stiffness both days, emotionally and physically very low and drained. Both days I tried to do a little bit of exercise to slowly rebuild strength and muscle tone. Last night I slept a little better. Today I went to work. It was good to be there. But all day, walking was stiff and awkward, because my quads, hamstrings, calves and feet are aching and stiff.
Tonight was dance practice. Given how achy I felt, I thought it foolish to go, but decided to go and at least try to practice and have fun as a step toward upward improvement in my well being.
It’s amazing how once you get into the music and start dancing with someone, the aches and pains disappear into the background and fun dominates.
She was there. Now that I see Her a second time, I think She is probably 3 decades younger than me….too young. She looks like a natural, quick learner, lover of dance. Almost the entire practice, She danced with a guy who is one of the top 10 best, most charismatic dancers in the club (of about 1000). I can see why he didn’t dance much with anyone else. Pretty much closed and nailed shut the door on any thoughts I had of dancing with Her more and maybe getting to know Her.
I’m glad I went to practice tonight.
Wow! I still need them. I need more time to fix what was wrong. I need more time to finally break through to them and have what I always needed, what we should have had. Mommy and Daddy don’t go, not forever. I’m not ready for that. I’m not ready yet to be all alone. Let them come back. Please!
Wow! All alone. Is alone the only option? Alone is all it is! Too much! Hurts too much! Why must it be? Not my fault. Not fair. Is there no one for me?
So much of a loss, Larry. We all may grieve differently. It was 3 weeks before I could talk in any way objectively about my mom’s passing ( four yrs. ago) and let our neighbors know. You will need time too. Hope you can call your siblings often to support each other.
Take care. S
> Larry,
> that sounds like very very painful basic stuff..
> I hear you.
> M
Very terrible attack on Paris by terrorists. A timely article on Janov’s blog on why belief’s kill, notably by groups that hate. France will need much healing in this horrible time for them.
It’s scary, what a crazy world we live in. The assumption seems to be that ISIS is responsiblealthough that has yet to be verified. Phil
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:40:39 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sylvia: Yes! a timely article .. but for me with some very resiliant meanings.
The pasage that stood out to me the most was “One thing I fail to understand is that after the killing, the remaining journalist put out another massive issue, stating in effect, on the cover, “all is forgiven”. I don’t get it. Are the religious precepts so strong as to override rational feeling? What bothers me is the majesty of it all; “when I forgive I am above all that. I have the power to forgive those lesser beings.” “I am the great forgiver.””
I wrote some time ago that “forgiving” is not, as is generally bethought:- such a benefitting action. It’s a religious concept that merely attempts to transcend the initial feeling.
The next point “when I forgive I am above all that” No!!! I am not ‘above’ being visciouly angry. I am just like the rest of us humans.
Jack
It is so sad seeing the photos of what’s going on in Paris, alsothe pledge of support that Obama has made, brought tearsto my eyes.The president of France says that ISIS did it. Those individualswho did this were suicidal but so is the whole ISIS organization asI think there will be an even more vigorous response to acceleratetheir downfall after this.Phil
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 15:07:48 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes, Jack; to forgive so readily those remaining journalists must have still been stunned. Bet their rage came out later.
Phil, I googled “who is Isis” and found a lot of info on CNN in their short article: :Isis: Everything you need to know about the group. What struck me the most was how they have developed their own cities and government in the territories they have invaded; setting up an economy from the oil. They take over Kurdish population with their military, killing the males and taking the women and girls into slavery. Horrible stuff. The true Muslims speak out against the perversion of Isis’ ‘religious’ beliefs. There are several one to three minute videos that show snapshots of what is going on. Bad history in the making.
Sylvia, I’ve been more or less following the ISIS story. ISIS is apparently trying to form a new Muslim nation and holds territories that they conquered in Syria and Iraq but they are not recognized by any nations, maybe only by other terrorist groups. For them, as you said, it’s fine to execute, rape and put into sexual slavery anyone who doesn’t share their religious beliefs. They have been trying to obliterate the Yazidi religious minority in Iraq and Syria using these methods. They are blowing up historic sites and monuments. I don’t think there’s any question that ISIS will be defeated but the problem is who will do that, how soon that can be achieved, and the big question; what happens after that. What will stop them, or some other nasty group, from popping up again? Phil
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 18:51:50 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Yes, Phil, it’s frightening, and to see the actual pictures of the hordes of fanatics, and In contrast the poor women of the Yazidi group’s accounts of what they have endured brings it home. Looks like it will be a long siege.
On the evening of Nov. 10 I watched the movie ‘Saving Private Ryan’, probably for the 5th time. Because Private Ryan was the only one left living of 4 brothers who entered WW2, the Captain was tasked to lead a small group of men into Europe to find Private Ryan and bring him home to his mother. Most of the men die in the search for Ryan.
This time the part of the movie that really got to me was near the end. Private Ryan leans over to the dying Captain to offer help. The dying Captain implores Private Ryan to move in closer, focuses in on Private Ryan’s eyes and says to him in a weak dying voice ‘Ryan, earn this’, and dies.
The feeling stirred in me was the urgency to earn the rest of my life, to make the most of it through this therapy. My Mom is gone, along with Dad. I never had them. I am alone. But I have a chance that they never had to make something more of my life than my childhood would have enabled. They were imprisoned all of their lives. I have the chance they never had to break free from childhood bonds. I am lucky for the very rare opportunity, and feel an imploring urge to earn the rest of my life.
Hi Larry
Every time you put up posting, as I am reading it, I feel stroked. Don’t know what it is about the way you write, the way you expres yourself, I find it comforting.
I reiterate, if I were you, I would seriously consider writing as a hobby at least, if not a full time profession.
You sound so sane.
Please keep it up.
Tom
Keep it up.
I write here because I need to, Tom. You are my ‘hobby’ I guess.
Larry: quote “They were imprisoned all of their lives. I have the chance they never had to break free from childhood bonds. I am lucky for the very rare opportunity, and feel an imploring urge to earn the rest of my life.” Yes Larry, you do have a chance they never had. It will be tough, but you’ve already shown you know how. I hope you will and you sure deserve it.
My mind boggles at the deprivation you suffered as kid. Keep at it Larry even though it will be hard and I hope you find another partner to help you in that journey.
Good Luck Larry and really hope your retirement turn out good, fun and worth it.
Jack
Oh Oh Oh My god.Larry . I am having a hard time finding words. As for wanting to “earn the rest of your life” , as far as I am concerned , you earned it long ago. But I deeply connect with ….your desire. Thank you for being. Linda from Texas
Margaret’s recent post reminded me that I wanted to reply to you. Nice to hear from you LInda. Thanks for saying. Were we buddies a year or more ago?
Yes, Larry, we all have our own battles. And when we see others may have an easier time of it, we still have to trudge on because we are obligated to get better and not to give up. It’s hard to fight the tide to give in but that leads nowhere. We live in a time where there are proven ways to get through our pain and be free of it. So we might as well use it.
You shouldn’t have given me away. You shouldn’t have let me stay away for so long.
They were my ‘family’ now. When you finally brought me back, I was with them for more of my life than with you. Another disruption for me. Another upheaval. Another tearing me away from my ‘family’. Twice was too much. After that I hurt too much. You didn’t see. I couldn’t open up after that. I couldn’t risk trusting anymore that I could belong and would be loved and wanted and kept. I never fit in again after that, ever, anywhere.
I understand now. I can try to risk opening up to you now. I still need and want you, as much, for all of my life. Come back. Don’t let this void be forever! It is fixable.
Come back.
Please.
Damn you Tom. I just watched a video you posted on Facebook, about an English conservationist and his daughter going to visit two wild gorillas in a forest in West Africa born in captivity and raised by the conservationist until their release 12 years ago. Back then the daughter, little, played with the little gorillas.
Upon meeting them after 12 years away, the gorillas remember their human friends. It is very moving how endeared the gorillas are to them, how much the gorillas hug them and want to be hugged by them, even the little girl now an adult. They are very gentle.
That’s what I needed from my parents when I was brought back home, that kind of hugging, that kind of acceptance, that kind of gentle warm physical embrace and love. Crying hurts, seeing what could have and should have been, and then the vacuum of what was.
> Larry,
> what you wrote about feeling like earning yourself life sounds like you did gain a lot of strength over the years.
> this is something courageous and full of willpower to say, specially as it sounded so honest and spontaneous.
> inspiring.
> M
> I suddenly realized how, when I picture deceased persons I loved, and in some way need a feeling of support, I automatically imagine them as by their death having solved all their issues, seen their truths and resolved what they needed to resolve. therefor they would be kind, goodwilling and very understanding and supportive..
> it does really help me occasionally as it seems also a way to accept myself in those moments..
> and come to think of it, it also helps to accept them, as it supposes that when they really look their truths honestly in the eye, and understand and accept it all, they are basically kind beings…
> does this sound crazy?
> it does not feel that way really, maybe it is a way to look at the basic underlying true person you loved, and still love, in its pure essence of how they could have been under better circumstances?
> M
Listening to this endless coverage of Paris on CNN I find it so ……………..tiresome and annoying. Endless ‘crying’ about how much we hurt, how awful these ‘terrorists’ are etc etc. It seems nobody even tries to point out some ‘facts of life’
If we casually wreck one country after another in the Middle East I don’t see why we should be so outraged and surprised and shocked etc if just a little bit of it sloshes back to us. It’s only fair or karma or whatever word you want to use. Phil if you cry when Obama speaks……………..well you are more ‘trusting’ than me. After all Obama basically created ISIS to do the usual dirty work of wrecking another neighbor of Israel’s (among other things) to try to soothe or slake their endless paranoia and aggression. Not that it does Iran is now on the ‘list’ to be wrecked (but by us preferably.)
Putin has shown what a bunch of fakery our ‘war’ on ISIS is/was. They are basically ‘our guys’ and there never was a serious intention to defeat them which has been shown up by Putin. . The US and Israel wants Assad ‘gone’ – the legitimate government or at least the only one it has of Syria’gone’. Just as they have done with Gaddafi in Libya to be replaced by total chaos. The Empire of Chaos. So a small bit of the Chaos blows back on us…………..should we be ‘surprised’ but the funny thing it seems we are.
Patrick, The feeling of strong support for our French friends that Obama expressedaccounts for my reaction. I would like that kind of support from a family member orfriend, now or in the past. I guess we see the French as our good friends andallies and a country very similar to ours. There was also a terrorist attack inBeirut which hasn’t gotten as much attention because of the events in Paris.Don’t you feel any horror or sadness about the innocent people slaughteredin Paris? It could have been any of us is what I imagine. Not so much Beirut asit’s not on my list of places to visit, but the events there were also terrible.The geopolitics you mention is really out of our control, whether you are rightor not.Phil Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:49:15 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
There are several things you mention in this comment of yours that come to my attention. I sort of agree that terrorism as we have designated it, is more often than not, a consequence of our own actions. Better know as “unintended consequences”. However, it is your re-action:- “Listening to this endless coverage of Paris on CNN I find it so ……………..tiresome and annoying”, brings up for me, another feeling about you. If it were your own kith and kin, I wonder if you would have the same re-action … I don’t think so. In another, somewhat, of an agreement with you … it is my country that accelerated this whole process. Conquering other lands then depleting them of their resources … and on and on and on.
Why I feel it becomes so noteworthy is that innocent people are being maimed and killed for the actions of their leaders. Those leader are well protected from anyone hurting them, so in order for those people maimed and killed by our leaders, their kith and kin ‘take it out’ on “soft targets”. The problem remains for society at large HOW CAN WE STOP ALL THE MAYHEM??????
That is the question that rarely, if ever, gets pondered … though there is some evidence that some are beginning to take note. The answer is not, IMO, to take “revenge”. That never solved any problem, but merely set in motion a spiraling effect. We call them “terrorist” … they call us “terrorist”. You call them bullies … they call you a bully. Hence, there is a never ending spiraling effect going on with us neurotic humans (and I don’t exclude myself) forever playing “THE BLAME GAME”. You are quite adept at this very factor yourself Patrick.
Without repeating my notion all over again … there is a solution that would (so easily IMO) resolve this “neurotic merry go round”. No militaries, no police, no leaders acting on anyone’s behalf, hence no government. BUT, alas, that is too simple a notion … and so we’re living in a world that getting crazier and crazier by the day. AND no-one, it seems, has a solution. Merely band aids.
Jack
Sylvia – sorry I have taken so long to answer your question about dreamers and non-dreamers.
Thanks for asking…I am still haunted by the Margaret’s vivid, horrid accounts, liked UG’s info and am intrigued how you have had such big feeling dreams. Sometimes I’ll have a dream that feels so real I am relieved to awaken and know it isn’t true.
I wish the nightmare of Paris was so…
“later that night
I held an atlas in my lap
ran my fingers across the whole world
and whispered
where does it hurt?
it answered
everywhere
everywhere
everywhere”
Warsan Shire
🙂
> Jack, I think chances would be very big we’d end up with a bunch of warlords.. even with abolisching money there’d still be fights going on about whatever seems valuable, and to have the power over as much as possible..
> a worldwide decent and fair kind of system might give some kind of solution in a far future, only if it would also have respect for the environment and if people would have a good internalized feeling of shared interests and values and respect.
> not impossible, but the dividing of properties should be organized completely differently imo, much more common goods and no big shots and multinationals where all the wealth streams towards.
> it would be interesting to think about such a system that would be fair and workable..
> M
Margaret: I would like you to just ponder for more than a few seconds the concept of no money and no means of exchange. What, I ask, would THEN be considered VALUABLE?????? Without attempting to put you down, isn’t this what everyone thinks, believes, has the notion of? Should there be no money (solely a means of control of one person over another)???? We (and I don’t exclude myself) have been brainwashed by our parents and human society at large, that without this means of controlling one another … there would be unutterable violence. There is no evidence anywhere that, that would be the case. Chaos yes, but then what is intrinsically terrible about CHAOS?????? We are living with, and are surrounded by ‘chaos’ and it not that terrible .. for the most part Take for instance the unutterable chaos of the pedestrian situation in any given city. No-one knows or dictates (whilst we remain on the pavement, sidewalk), which direction anyone should move, at what speed, at what moment in time and for what purpose. It’s absolute CHAOS but we live very comfortable with it. There are many other instances of chaos that we live with, the weather, and nature, etc.
There have been some thinkers that have thought this notion through … too few by my reckoning … Perhaps the most famous was Karl Marx. For me the genius of Marx was in knowing and demonstrating what was wrong with human societies … his mistake, as I see it, was in designating how we could get from our current situation of controlling and competition, to a system of co-operation. Once he designated a means of transition, I contend he set in motion the very thing that would destroy his idea. It needs to evolve and cannot be dictated. Once anyone dictates anything, we are then back to controlling, imposition, manipulation,and all the other neurotic factors we humans created. We are the only creature on the planet that live by this insanity … and yet we fail to comprehend it.
Co-operation could make the ‘world go round’ but sadly we chose competition. Madness!!!!!
Jack
Jack,I tend to agree with Margaret. I don’t think anarchism would workbecause of the power vacuum which would result.Someone will always want more; more power,more possessions, etc., I suppose because of neurosis. When we are allcured, maybe then.How would the transition or evolution to such a systemtake place? The transition might be massive wars; the very few people leftmight be able to cooperate, but I doubt it.Phil
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:49:23 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but to flip to a very cleche’d answer as to how it would be; is for YOU making a decision about how it would be: when in fact NO-ONE really knows. It is this concept that we all THINK we know how it would be. There is little evidence of it.
Should you care to give it more than a few seconds though, (and I’m not trying to be patronizing) there would be little reason for anyone wanting power. We grapple for power when our early beginnings demonstrated that we had none, and codify it when we remain ‘currently’ without it … for the sake of privilege. BUT what is there to be gained from privilege other than the ego? Surely, having a life and the ability to freely express our feeling is (as I see it) the very essence of life, I feel we came to this therapy to participate in getting to that point.
Yes, I agree, that in a non neurotic world that would be a given. BUT (and I grant a huge “but”) the one simple means to us all achieving that “primal” goal would be to eliminate any other from dictating how I/we should be. I was conceived with all the requisite necessities … it was the ensuing development that created the deprivation … from those who’d equally been deprived of their own.
Jack
Jack, You have presented some of these ideas often here and I have reflected onthem. They are wonderful and Utopian, but at times you seem to base yourpredictions on the condition that people are healthy. But they aren’t. All the people nowliving are not going to become neurosis free any time soon, nor will their children.It’s just not happening. Maybe I’m just a lot more pessimistic than you are. I favor achievable incremental improvements to our current societal systems; things that are possible. For example, something can be done about wealth inequality. Phil
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:57:27 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Allow me a little more indulgence here. Yes, I have been expressing these idea for a long time, not only on this blog, but in other forums for more than 50 years. These are idea I came slowly into formulating starting off in my early twenties when I attended a series of lectures in London by some lecturers that I gave a lot of credence to. I did not totally accept all they said in the beginning, but over time, and a lot of thinking and reading, slowly It dawned on me. Just like in therapy, when after a huge feeling; we have incredulous insights.
The accusation that they are “Utopian” on the premise that anything that pertains to being “utopian” is ‘pie in the sky’. Many great thinkers were considered ‘utopian’, outrageous and ‘way off base’ but later became mainstream. History is full of examples. The greatest one as I see it is the notion of the perfect man … Jesus Christ. I contend he was figment of Mark, the gospel writer’s, imagination, after it having been a word of mouth notion bases on the Jewish concept of the “coming of the Messiah”.
However Phil, I do not think that we humans are healthy. We are neurotic and have been (I contend) for more than 30 millennium. However, since there is never going to be the possibility of Primal Therapy for the masses;- in order to reverse our illness; there needs to be another way to bring about the slow dissolution of this very debilitating disease. My notion (and only mine, least-ways on this blog) is the abolition of that factor that “neurotic man” created to keep his neurosis intact. First barter then money.
Further I am not optimistic of that likelihood. Quite the reverse, but should we not reverse the developments taking place in the world around us, then we are doomed to our own extinction. I contend possibly before the end of this century. All we get from all those proposing solution are:- “Ban Aids” by my reckoning.
One addendum to my last post. I stated that we are only familiar with our BEHAVIOR. Example if you put rats in a cage with a maze you can study the behavior of those rats … but that is a ‘far cry’ from studying their NATURE. To do that, you need to do something akin to what Jane Goodall when she studies the nature of chimps in their natural setting, not how they behave when in a box contrived by us humans. And as I see it, we are creatures in a box of our own making … delineated brilliantly by Arthur Janov … after a coincidental discovery.
Jack
The Messiah is here, Jack. Me!
The problem as I see it is:- you actually believe it … but wrap it up in a form of jest.
\I call that very dishonest and not worthy of a serious Primal post.
Jack
Jack,Your ideas may be good and I’m just not seeing it. It isn’t easy to imaginehow they would work.There are many reasons to be pessimistic about the future.In my mind one of the basic underlying problems causing others is our over population. I’ve been interested to see that China very recently rescindedtheir one child policy. There have been a lot of articles in the news about this,emphasizing the abusive nature of how this policy was enforced and thesocial consequences. No one seems to talk about the population problem.I have thought that this actually was a bold policy by China to address the issue head onand it only needed better implementation. Some of the horrors were due to theChinese preference for male children. China now has a two child policy.India will soon pass China in population. It probably would be impossible to restrict reproduction in a democracy unless an extreme crisis was at hand.We are a very successful species on this planet, even if neurotic. Phil Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:02:28 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Jack, to add to what I said, I think there will always be something to possess, even if everything is considered public and shared. Someone will always want a larger or better share for themselves. It seems to be human nature (or neurosis). Phil
Phil: NO, NO, NO; that is our human BEHAVIOUR …our NATURE is very, very different. Isn’t that what we are all attempting to achieve with this therapy???????
Jack
Jack: Perhaps we all need to live in a state of competitive cooperation? Or cooperative competitiveness to make everything work semi-fluently?
I need to switch gears for a second, because I am suffering from a dilemma….
I am considering being a distributor for a fairly new product on the market called “Poo Pourri”. I personally never have any issues where this product is needed for me because I come from rather noble lineages on both sides of my family.
However, this still doesn’t help me arrange these advertising placements for specialized demographic groups of my less fortunate brethren. I only have short periods of time to present at most one advertisement to each prospective customer.
Would:
#1 be best for older people? Empty nesters whose kids have already gone off to college?
#2 Be best for younger couples with children at home?
#3 Be best for the youngest adults? (Generation Y/millenials)?
#1 — Older adults? Empty Nesters?
#2 Younger couples with children at home?
#3 Young adults with no children? (Generation Y)?
Guru,I can easily see Poo Pourri catching on and becoming a status thing.Is is a publicly owned company? Phil Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:18:29 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Very good question, Phil. I don’t know. I think it’s unlikely, though, because it’s a very specialized product and a fairly small-ticket one at that. The manufacturer/owners would only need private financing with VC’s or angel investors to distribute this nationwide rather than a giant public offering.
The company producing Poo Pourri (don’t we all produce poo-pourri in a sense?) would have to be a subsidiary of a larger company to increase the likelihood of public shareholders.
I was….uhh…kidding about the distributorships..
I am still one of the small, lucky minority that doesn’t need this product, though (genetic nobility).
Guru: If this comment of yours is meant to be your humor, it flew right over my “cuckoo’s nest”. If indeed you are serious, then it’s a classic example of crooked thinking. I will assume that you mean to be totally serious.
First quote:- “Perhaps we all need to live in a state of competitive cooperation” Idomatically this is no paradox nor irony or any other idiom of the English lnguage that I am aware of. It comes accross to me as plain stupidity. You cannot site two opposites as some sort of relavant situation. It’s not only crooked thinking, and certainly suggests NO sence of wisdom … but pure idiotic (nay neurotic) ideation.
Second quote:- “…. because I come from rather noble lineages on both sides of my family.” If that is your sense of nobility then ‘godo help us’.
I get the feeling you are trying to show some form of ‘brilliance’, but for me, it demonstrates the very lack of it. It’s one thing to not understand where I am coming from, but yet another to attempt to show your superiority. What fucking conceit.
Jack
P.S I, in no way come from anything that might be considered nobility.
J
Well there’s no sense in arguing with Poo Pourri’s neediest customer. How many cases would you like, Jack?
Guru, I had to put down my bowl of lentils and zucchini lunch. Can’t eat while people are engaged so with bathroom functions.
First the synthetically poo-flavored yogurt; now this. I see a pattern. Is it something to do with early toilet training?
The richest sources of humor can often be found in the most objectionable corners of humanity?
If it’s “OBJECTIONABLE”; Then how comes is humorous … except to the one being “objectionable”
Jack
Yes, Guru, it was funny. Last year when I first saw that commercial I couldn’t watch it all–too disgusting. But later this year I saw it and laughed out loud. Not so repressed anymore I guess. The yogurt shoppe that you posted long ago I thought was funny too and thought those poor lab people who had to come up with the new flavor were good sports.
Sorry to ruin your zucchini/lentils meal. I did feel like you were being a party “pooper” when you said that, but no hard feelings.
Sylvia & Phil & many of the others (perhaps with the exception of Patrick) had a certain viewpoint on what occurred in Paris.
I operate from the premise that we will kill as many people in automobile traffic here in the US as how many were killed by terrorists in Paris in 36 hours. This is why I didn’t flinch when the story blared all over the news media. It just makes no sense to worry about it where I’m concerned.
I’ve talked about this many, many times in the past. No need to go into it further.
I will drop a special hint though: When Obama is pressured to step up the actions against ISIS, the prime military contractors could hear the “kaching!” sound of a cash register drawer opening up and new contracts pouring in.
As sick and perverted as it may sound, these contractors have a huge financial incentive to say, “Thank you ISIS (or Al Qaeda or any other terror group the news media discusses)! Keep it up!”
I mean, if you guys WANT to feel bad or freak out over Paris, it’s OK with me. I’ll certainly let you have your space on that matter if you need it.
Only because Sylvia mentioned the blog post, I took a look at Janov’s posting. He mentioned that he’d seen murderers in therapy and how they “softened up”.
I’d like to know if these murderers showed up in therapy via their own decision or not. If they entered therapy of their own volition, I would venture to guess they were already feeling remorseful and they were ready to soften up anyway, therapy or not. If they were forced into therapy by law enforcement it would be a much better test of whether the murderers’ recidivism rate is reduced because of therapy.
Quote:- “As sick and perverted as it may sound, these contractors have a huge financial incentive to say, “Thank you ISIS (or Al Qaeda or any other terror group the news media discusses)! Keep it up!”. I couldn’t agree more forcefully … but WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION? Oh mighty one 🙂 .
.I am tempted to ask: Is there a big feeling in here for you?
War was always very profitable for some. How about abolishing cars, trucks, buses and all those other killer weapons … like guns, bullets, tanks battleships, fighter and bomber planes?
I would have thought that a Messiah might have many solutions. So enlighten us!!!! oh Master Guru.
Jack
Jack:
I do have the solutions, but I am not sharing them.
Guru, but did not the proverb say to not “hide one’s light under a bushel?” Show us the way, the truth and the light.
Guru: You are so full of yourself …. You now state you have a solution, but you are not prepared to share it. It’s purely my feeling, but I don’t believe you. For someone that came to do Primal Therapy; that is about expressing oneself freely … you are the most hide bound of all. I don’t remember you ever expressing one singe feeling on this blog. It is a waste of my time at least, to ask you any question for you will never answer it. Again only my feeling, but I don’t feel you have and answers about anything.
When in the early days you used to phone me, all you ever did was ask me questions; never once revealing anything about yourself. It is absurd that you seemingly pretend to be a Primal person. Mearly someone with tomes of wisdon, the second coming of the Messiah, of noble liniage (that very phrase is a ‘left over’ from the British colonials)
I know I am arragoant and conceited, but I now feel you are way more arrogant and conceited than I am. What is really shameful to me, is that you hide it under some guise of humor. A type of humor I do not like. It’s deceptive, and meant, as I see it, to imply some grandeur of yourself where deep down I strongly feel you have none … and know it. That I feel is where you are at. You fail to realize that there are those that knew you when you attended groups and that is out there amongst those that attended those groups with you. Along the ‘grape vine’ that I am familiar with it’s not the picture of yourself you imply with most of your posts.
My real concern here for me is that I feel you paint an unimpressive picture of Primal people. That I really do not like. To repeat:- that is:”the thing” I have about you. Pissed off with you is a bit strong; more like unimprssed. I’ll leave to others if they see my attitude towards you differently.
Jack
Oh I promise you, Jack, you’ll be deceased before you ever hear my voice again over the phone.
Heard through the grapevine? From people who have not interacted with me in over 10 years? Yes, that’s a reliable source you should always depend on.
I’m utterly amazed that you think I am worried about whether you are impressed with me or not. There’s no way in hell I’d want to trade places with you, so why would I worry about your being impressed with me or not? Especially after all the months and months of harassment you’ve given me on the blog when I never did anything directly to provoke it (not to mention invading my privacy which prompted intervention from Gretchen even Vicki saying you should be banned from this blog)? Jeezus! Now there are some incredible levels of being full of yourself in a most unwarranted way.
You really need to find something better to do with your last days than harassing maternal orphans on the blog. How about a blood donation or solving Cheryl and Bernard’s birthday problem that frustrated you so much?
I’ve taken five quotes from your last comment and have the desire to respond to all five of them, since (to repeat) I love blogging..
First quote:- “Oh I promise you, Jack, you’ll be deceased before you ever hear my voice again over the phone.” Chances of me being deceased is an inevitability It strikes me as obvious that you would never want to phone me again, merely post comments to me in public instead,.
Second quote:- “I’m utterly amazed that you think I am worried about whether you are impressed with me or not.” I have no idea how think/feel about my sentiments about you; but I do sort of suspect that my sentiments pique you somewhat. Of course, I could well have the wrong sentiments about you.
Third quote:- “Especially after all the months and months of harassment you’ve given me on the blog when I never did anything directly to provoke it Wowee!! I sense a feeling here … you feel harassed by me? When Tom V suggested some time back that you were being vicious … you replied back to Tom: he was referring to the wrong person. Some sense of clairvoyance here, yeah!!!!!???
Fourth quote:- “(not to mention invading my privacy which prompted intervention from Gretchen even Vicki saying you should be banned from this blog)” When you (accidently) revealed your birth first name, I then used it; not knowing at that moment that it was an accident on your part. How you contrived that was an “intervention” of your privacy … unless you are hiding from the FBI, I find bewildering. Granted, I then added the alias. Gretchen’s remark, if I remember rightly was:- she thought it was beneath me… obviously not, since I did it. Further, I don’t remember Vicki suggesting I should be banned, though I grant that Vicki and I were never the closest of buddies.
Fifth quote:- “How about a blood donation or solving Cheryl and Bernard’s birthday problem that frustrated you so much?” I’ve never been able to donate blood since I have a very low blood pressure … and I have no idea who Cheryl and Bernard are. Quote me back, since I would like to know just how and when I I was frustrated with these guys.
Jack
> the true insanity imo lays in the idea valid excuses can exist for the deliberate act of murdering innocent civilians that have little or nothing to do with the socalled causes. in Paris there were also muslims between the victims, as are in the attacks in Beirout and Irak.
> it is all equally horrible, also the civilians in Syria suffering as I did write here a while ago.
> but the craziest of all remain those people who use religion as their excuse for circumcizing women by force or prostituting young girls and killing their families simply for having a different religion.
> blowing up ancient architecture only being one symptom of their craziness.
> apart of them there are so many other governments that use suppression and violence, at this moment and I don’t want to start naming them, as I know too little about them and do not see the point of picking out just a few while others might be worse or equally bad.
> one big tanle of greed for power and money, and very few innocents on the high levels wherever we go, I am afraid.
>
> I do think though someone like Obama is really sincere and well intentioned, but his hands are partly tied.
> I htink it is hard to find good solutions that work and are accepted by the parties involved.
> part of our heritance might still be the basic instinctive tendency to go for the wellfare of what people regard as their own groups, which can be anything from a family to a state or country or religion or whatever crazy subgroup someone with enough charisma and enough followers can think of..
> power and money..
> partly driven by testosterone?
> power corrupts still goes far too often I am afraid..
> therefor mundial agreements and rules seem the only way to come to some state of balance that might correct itself whenever a subgroup tends to misbehave.
> but well, utopia indeed..
> still, we can only try and hope it is not too late.
> I do agree with Phil though I think there are already too many of us, and that will soon be the biggest problem of all as it also causes more and more climate threat..
> not so much we can do about it but do what is right in our own lifes, vote when we can, give money to what we stand for, and do whatever seems useful otherwise..
> the next generations get a hell of a heritance , I wish them strength and good luck and hope they a
> can save some of this planet’s wonderful nature, the source of us all..
> M
I want to describe a dream I had last night. I was at the retreat but had toleave very early otherwise I wouldn’t have a ride to the airport. I wasn’teven going to be able to go to any groups or see Barry and Gretchen.For some reason all of my things were scattered around and it wastaking a lot of time to find them. I found my tennis racquet and noticed thatthe grip was too large. I overheard Margaret telling other people thatI said good and important things in group, so it was a shame I was leaving(thanks Margaret!).Then it turned out I could stay after all. I could just rent a car and that wouldsolve the problem.This all has to do, I think, with my difficulties feeling accepted by groups,including this one and the one at the retreat. Also at the gym there isa group of people who play racquetball and I would like to feel a memberof that group. I have doubts that I’m a good enough player. My regular racquetball partner has been rejected from that group as he’s not such a goodsport.It relates to my childhood also in that the only way I could feel a member of the group at school was to be good at sports but I easily felt rejected anyway. I hardlyinteracted with anyone because I was so shy.My wife told some days ago that she realizes that her “real” people. other thanme and the kids, are all in Spain. She has a lot of friends here but they don’tcount as much. I guess this is also why I like to improve my Spanish so I canfeel a member of that group over there. I told my wife that I don’t have any “real” people, except maybe the group at theretreat.Phil Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:34:25 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Sounds like a dream that’s leading you to insights (painful).
Sounds like a dream that’s leading you to insights (painful
Larry, You were right, I did have some insights related to the dream I described.
In my car on the way home from work, some music I was listening to brought up
feelings. It’s that my mother and grandmother never said nice things to me that
I remember. So if someone says something nice, that really stands out as such a contrast from what I had in my childhood. The significance of the insight is huge
as I am realizing what I was missing.
Phil
Insights are no fun.
Word…Larry.
?
Onoma Kpatw = OK Pat woman
Anagram?? 😉
??
Agree with your sentiments, Margaret. Especially the first sentence of direct acts of murder of innocent civilians. That is what “gets” us about the Paris attacks.
We have expected the unfeeling acts for profit by greedy tobacco companies ruining people’s health. We know that car manufacturers will choose profit over safety. Before Obama care insurance companies would deny coverage to ill people leaving them to face bankruptcy in medical crises. But the deliberate act of face to face slaughter of people has to repel all of us; and that those attackers are so numbed to feeling from hate strikes a primal chord in us.
hi Phil,
sadly enough it is true our local politicians are more interested in quarreling about minor details like which pice of administration should be sent first in which languafe or in both or how much money goes to which part of the country, and who decides on what, than to make the country work well..
here in the countries around us there is already a standing remark that goes oh it is another Belgian story, as to say absurd, ludicrous and painfully stupid…
and yes, there are so many hiddden agendas in the middle east, oil, power, money…
loads of money are poured into isis, they really hand it out to anyone coming over, so no wonder a lot of young people give it a try..
discouraging , and sad..
crazy P still there isn’t he?
are you ok otherwise?
take care, M
I reallly don’t look much at the blog now, I did not even look after writing on Thursday but this morning I think well let’s look. So I click on the bottom of “Recent Comments” from Larry and then the next one from Margaret (above) where she say’s “crazy P still there isn’t he/”……………….and well one reaction I have is that is just further ‘proof’ as if any is needed that I should not bother with a place like this. If I don’t fit in with the standard ‘feeling’ subjects or God forbid wonder why we have “Holocaust” laws and even about the reality of the event itself I am ‘crazy’ I suppose. Well I suppose I am because Gretchen seems to think that is ‘crazy’ and well we all follow Grethchen even though she seems to have no clue about the subject beyond her ‘tribe’s’ standard kind of lurid ‘stories’. And you are all stuck by how ‘crazy’ I am some think they are being ‘manipulated’ but to check with Gretchen first just to make sure. Yes you are being ‘manipulated’ so now you know well if only…………….
I have other reaction too……………….like who the fuck do you think you are Margaret? So youre NOT crazy huh? Well you could have fooled me you royally and totally fucked up your life and you have the gall and actually the stupidity to say things like that? Your small little world and of course you only want to make it smaller, only the people you like and the subjects you like. You resent being told anything you don’t already know so sit in your cave in Belgium and ‘cry’ about how ‘crazy’ the world is all around you. The world is ‘crazy’ and so is ‘crazy P’ I already told you to use my name. but you like that kind of de-humanization it seems…………………oh well as I say sometimes “anther fine primal success story’…………………I can see now how it really ‘works’………………..
Patrick: A part of me wondered whether Margaret might have been referring to crazy Phil. Phil’s been acting up lately, trying to impersonate Margaret when responding to my posts. Just a few hours ago is one such example.
> Phil,
> glad you could manage to rent that car and stay!
> seems like a good sign as well for you handling your problems..
> i relate to the feeling like an outsider, very much, and to being shy, though not many people would think that of me..
> i have no group i feel part of, but you are definitely part of my little personal circle of people I trust and feel safe with. which for me is the basic prerogative of all true friendships to develop on.
> M
> I also feel bad every time I hear about another terrorist suicide bomber or carbomb on a marrket place, somewhere in the Middle East. the targets are mostly women going to buy food for their families, and often a second set of bombs to kill the people that rush to help the victims.
> people like that, who organize this kind of vicious killings are too dangerous to let them be, I am against death penalty etc. but in these cases I do not mind too much they are attacked and bombed, as long as it is certain no inocent civilians are in the middle of it.
> but hey, surprise, IS also uses prisoners as living shields, a war crime..
> I do feel sorry for those kids for being so brainwashed and for their families and mothers, but at some point it becomes like what you have to do with dogs with rabies, in order to protect others the only remedy, sadly enough, is to shoot them.
> now don’t get me wrong, I would rather have them all come to their senses and specially have those young people stop going there, the greatest criminals are the brainwashers, who make those vulnerable young people want to go there, don’t forget with promises of enough money there as IS gets loads of money from some interested parties that stay more or less in the background, at least that is what I have read.
> I am no expert, at all, am merely ventilating my feeling of powerlessness to put an end to this insanity, also feel bad for those young people as I have said, as i know in my own adolescense I might have been attrackted to the deceiving ‘romantic’ and ‘good’ cause full of adventure they are tempted with..
>
> and Jack, how on earth can you get so worked up about Guru, and take him seriously in this way, haven’t you ever heard of irony?
> I have said before there must be something else than just the person Guru going on there, would it help if say you’d call yourself Master Jack, smiley, just teasing, as well, if anything irritates me it is the ongoing set of attacks from you on anything he says, most of it completely innocent in my perspective.
> do you need a target for some reason?
> M
Margaret: Thank you for your input regarding Jack. Interestingly enough, less than five minutes after I posted that Jack would never hear from me again by phone, I received a strange call to the old, secure landline phone that affords direct access to the nerve center of my headquarters’ inner sanctum. The caller hung up the phone when I asked, “Hello?”..
Margaret: I suspect you have some good feelings towards Guru since you have on many occasions asked of him, after days of his silence. The real “Irony” for me is that when Patrick first came on the blog and ranted and raved about me for days … there was no ‘cry-out’ from you. Later, for your own good reason that I do not question, you became a great buddy of his … until he started getting back at you.
I have since made my feelings about Guru quite clear several times, and he is someone I feel deserves to be poked in the sense of quoting him back. Not sure that is particularly offensive, since I feel both Guru and Patrick both misrepresent the blog and the therapy inaccurately.
Since I am inspired to respond to many on the blog, I do so and feel it is it’s purpose. Poking when I feel misrepresentations occur is; by my way of thinking; not out of order. I have had several comments referring to you and especially when I felt you were feeling that the blog should not involve “bad” feelings. For me, all feelings are valid … on this blog. If there is to be a referee then I take it that would be Gretchen. Seemingly she lets all of it pass. that I feel is what makes this blog very worthwhile.
Jack
P.S. Should Guru think that call was me … first I do not have his phone number … second I have no desire to talk on the phone to him.
J
Jack:
And you are completely misrepresenting what I’ve said numerous times in the past about Primal therapy. It’s still my favorite overall and I’ve made considerable progress in life because of the assistance afforded by it. Granted, the road has been long and arduous.
You keep dishonestly lumping Patrick and myself together for some strange reason that suits you when it really makes no sense. We are completely separate people with different beliefs, thoughts, and outlooks. We are not Siamese twins. I never even knew Patrick existed before 2012.
As Margaret seemed to imply, I think you’re just bored with your final years and you want to have a good fight to entertain yourself with when Patrick is not around.
Why don’t you write some more books for Barry and Gretchen to read and give critical reviews on?
Today I’m feeling great for some reason. I’m attributingit to some adjustments in my diet; I was stuffing myself andtoday am feeling less bloated.Also last night I did some yoga at home on my own. I’ve beenattending a yoga class, once a week, for the past year but havenever tried doing it on my own.How is everyone else doing?Phil
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:48:02 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Guru: It obviously irks you when, like Patrick, you are quoted back your own words. Why to me, that should be irksome, when I would have thought it might give you pause and reflect on what you write. I personally would never feel harassed or irked by anyone quoting me back. I would take it as an opportunity to reflect on what I said/wrote or at least to see how, what I said/wrote, came across to others. Seemingly you and Patrick have this one characteristic in common …. hence my grouping you together. How that becomes “dishonesty” befuddles me.
However unlike, as I read you I will respond to your initial question:- “And you are completely misrepresenting what I’ve said numerous times in the past about Primal therapy.” Maybe, that is always a possibility when using language, but I am not aware, on reflection, that I misrepresent what you wrote, since I invariably cut and paste your own words. Incidentally Margaret and I have our differences on several things. I respond to her, the best I know how … hopefully without resentment.
What I also find ‘counter productive’ (just me mind) is that if you have “made considerable progress in life” (presumably as a result of Primal Therapy), then I would have thought (maybe stupidly on my part) that would have been a great opportunity for you to write about these matters on the blog. It appears to me, you are reluctant to go that route. It is what I feel most do on this blog, which brings me back to what I mean when I suggest “you misrepresent the blog and therapy”. If I were investigating doing Primal Therapy and came onto this blog to investigate how others are doing this therapy… to see one contributor giving himself the pseudonym “The Ultimate Superstar Guru” would put me off … as I feel it did with one other person who came onto this blog (only once), when he questioned ‘what’s with this “Ultimate Guru” guy’.
Also many of your writings, especially about me (rather than to me) seem peeved. Sure enough; we are all in process, but you and Patrick, to me, seem to be ‘somewhat behind the curve’ especially when making such comments as “Why don’t you write some more books for Barry and Gretchen to read and give critical reviews on? Are you playing therapist or just mere guru?????? It come across to me, like with Patrick, You are resentful of me … but instead of simply just saying that you make, what I consider, a schnide response. I suspect, though I could well be wrong, there is a feeling going on there about someone questioning your “wisdom.”
Though I can be bored at times, I don’t, as I feel about myself, respond on this blog out of boredom. In-spite of retirement, I am quite busy doing lots of things, though the blog is one of my prime interests. I love blogging, as I keep repeating.
Jack
Jack,It doesn’t concern me and he can defend himself but what I’ve noticed is that Guru isn’t a big fan of Dr. Janov, it seems, but otherwise doesn’t have a lot of bad things to say about the therapy I believe.I can see where he comes from with that, to a degree. I receive Janov’sblog messages and he has a long series going about epigenetics. I’m justnot able to wade through all of that stuff. Also, how many of us are goingto go so deep as he describes? At times it can seem disconnected from the reality of the therapy, even if true and all. It probably isn’t good stuff to dwellon as it can be discouraging.Phil Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:54:21 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I feel it does indeed concern you and all other bloggers, what is taking place between Guru and myself. Else, what is blogging all about; be it Primal or otherwise. One of my “things” about Guru is his apparent contempt for Janov, when:- are we not all of us indebted to him; if for not only the discovery, but the resultant creation of this therapy?
I personally, do read and occasionally re-read his blogs that I save … for potential reference. It is my feeling that Art is writing for two things; first his legacy and second to demonstrate that he is up on current research into the brain and neurophysiology. I would hope that he might also focus on ‘what is meant in the living of life’ in the feeling zone … rather than all the intellectual stuff going on in the world at large and in particular science.
I agree with you that many of us never reach the depth that he often implies … BUT for me it’s a process and I certainly feel strongly that there is not the absolute necessity for a therapist, sessions, groups or retreats. Maybe I am on my own in this regard, BUT I feel once that a certain stage in therapy is reached, one can continue on ones own … perhaps only seeing a therapist or indulging a buddy, when things feel to be getting out of hand.
My “thing” with both Guru and Patrick is they give ‘lip service’ to the therapy, BUT seemingly don’t apply it. However, that is purely my own feeling and i could well be wrong. However, the major factor, for me was in the creation of this particular blog. I feel it is meant to be an adjunct to therapy and a means for us all to sort of keep some contact and freely state what is going on in our lives. That, to and for me, is one of the great benefits of technology we can apply to therapy.
Since it is a forum for the free expression of our feelings, both within and outside the blog,; I see no problem. The one major factor that I have stressed for my self, and tried to convey to others is the very “ACT-OUT” of the “BLAME GAME” should be openly discouraged. I feel Patrick indulges this a great deal and Guru also, though to a somewhat lesser extent. Should that particular ‘act-out’ not be checked then I feel the blog would disintegrate … in much the same way as I feel the political discourse around the word, and in the US in particular, is taking place. It’s a trajectory IMO to our doom and extinction.
Jack
Phil: Thanks for your comments to Jack. They made a lot of sense to me in a very compact message
Can you take over my chatting roles with Jack for a while and keep him busy? I have to fix lunch and try to get some more technical work done. Thanks!
It doesn’t require Phil to keep me posting and especially POKING YOU, wither or not you are preparing breakfast, lunch or dinner.
Phil stated that you were capable of defending yourself, but now like Patrick, seemingly, you’d now like someone else to do your ***** work.
You’re so easy!!!!!!!!
Jack
Jack, the thing is I am supposing that Guru and Patrick express themselves, their feelings or avoidance, thoughts and opinions, and that is exactly how they are, the same as anyone else. They have experienced primal therapy and in that case are also examples of results, whatever they are. It would be different if someone random showed up trashing the therapy and Janov, with no experiences. But as it all has been so valuable to me I also hate to see bad things said. Phil
Phil: The supposition that Patrick and Guru are expressing themselves is not what I see them doing. Patrick is indulging his intellect, and prowess in that regard; and Guru, it seems to me, is attempting to promote his guruism, tomes of wisdom and more recently his nobility from both sides of his family. Both, for me, are worthy of a POKE. Maybe both or either will eventually see the need to express and OWN their feelings, rather than actg-them-out.
That I feel is the great benefit in blogging … getting ‘the mirror’ put back to oneself
Jack
Jack Everyday on the way to work I drive by a church. There is a sign out front that says “Encounter Church””Come as you are”. I’m not sure what they mean by that, I find it curious, but don’t intend to visit the place. But I guess we should all come here as we are, and maybe also a little as we are trying to be. We might not all be fulfilling the second part of that by making a sincere effort since this blog is therapy related.
Phil
Phil: My take on religion and the places where religion is practiced, is that they are forever trying to convert we sinners to becoming non-sinners and from what I see they never succeed in that endeavor. We are told we are born sinners and die sinners … or do they mean that dying is just another sin??? Jesus apparently, just floated off to heaven. For me that demonstrates the unutterable absurdity of religion.
In all walks of life we have little or no option, but to just be as we are, with the exception of childhood, when seemingly our parents (even when they are of nobility 🙂 ) are forever trying to make us into what they deem we ought to be. It’s one of the paradoxes (or should it be ‘ironies’) of civilized life. If you are suggesting that I should leave Guru and Patrick to be just as they are …. there is little I can do to change them. BUT (and a big ‘but’) that isn’t to say I can’t ‘poke’ them … as the mood takes me … cos that’s who I am 😦 .
However just to take the other tack. When I was in my twenties I gained access to a drama school, for the sole purpose of learning to become an actor. I was not a great success as a result of it, but nevertheless had the desire to try. Many years later, I read “The Primal Scream” and set out at great expense and moving my butt over to Los Angeles … for the sole purpose of making some changes to myself. Meantime, I have no regret for either the expense, or moving my butt. So!!! I’m not of the notion for leaving things or even people as they are. If (miraculously) I am able to change someone to my way of thinking or behaving; then I’ll put in the effort I feel Margaret demonstrate in her comments, that she is very eager to change her mother. You Phil may (subliminally) be trying to change me by way of stopping the pokes … presumably for you own comfort on the blog.
Aren’t we all one way or another trying to change many things? It ought not to be a SIN.
Jack
Jack,With that message I actually had in mind Patrick and Guru. Patrick for obvious reasonsand Guru seems to so directly avoid feelings here for the most part, one reason he may annoy you so much. I think this therapy does take some effort, I guess is what I was getting at. After I sent it I out I realized it could apply to you too, and all of us.Do you really want to be the guy who pokes and picks on certain people?OK, you say that’s you. It still could be something to look at. Also, is it actuallyhelpful to the people you poke? I don’t see how it is. It won’t make anyone more feelingful;if anything they will clam up. I see us as all performing a little of the therapist role,being good listeners etc., even if a forum doesn’t constitute therapy. Phil
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:43:02 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Of course, most of what you write has a great deal of bearing on most of the things you mention. What interests me most is what I like doing, which includes blogging and reading other’s posts. I personally find it stimulating for the most part. I never thought of poking as something offensive, if by pokes it’s just a matter of putting the words of others back to them. My reasoning relates back to something I have mentioned here several times and that is Thouless’ book “Straight and Crooked Thinking”. A book I read twice and was impressed by, to the extent that I try (not necessarily always suceeding) to practice … mainly for the sake of good communication and clarity in debate, or argument.
If, on a feeling oriented blog, we cannot express ALL of our feelings (on the premise that it is ligitimate expression and not acting-out by way of “Blame Game), otherwise, the very purpose of the blog becomes at best just a “l;ovey dovey” forum, or at worst, ceases to have purpose. I personally learn a great deal from other peoples comments and find it stimulating. Just as responding to you in these last several ‘back and forths’ between us. They have stimulated me greatly and kept me on my mental toes as t’were Constantly agreeing or even constant consolations aren’t the totality of it all. Least-ways that’s my take.
Should others find me tiresome, irksome, defensive, boring or anything else; and tell me so, I would look at that very closely. I get a great deal of stimulation from my relationship with my Jimbo … that’s my current life … not always perfect … but I feel we are both becoming more and more accomodating with one another’s foibles. That’s life for me … for what’s left of it. To quote Calvin (of Hobbs) “Life’s short … go naked.”
Jack
> Phil,
> in reply to you asking us how we are doing..
> in some ways I feel good today, have had some socializing and will have more the coming days..
> what does hurt though is how I hear my mom’s voice go more frail and vulnerable every time I call her. Just called her , 6 pm here now, and she was asleep on the couch, saying it was too early still to get up, and even after in the conversation having talked about it being evening, and she responding with oh ok, and talking about it, in the end she forgot again it was evening instead of early morning.
> she also refers to her new phone as a nice clock..
> when I tell her gently it is getting slowly the moment to being better off between people in the home, she still tends to be initially reluctant but also accepts it then without really discussing or arguing, she was enthousiastic last week, and now said well, ok I will certainly give it a try..
> maybe she needs to look at it this way still, she must know that once she goes she can’t come back..
> I will certainly be relieved when she would get there, as now it really starts to feel like it is getting important to call her at least once a day and maybe more occasionally, to make sure she eats and does some things instead of sleeping all day and waking up not knowing if it is day or night..
> we will buy her a new clock now that puts the day and date on it as well, in large letters..
> there is no way around it that it hurts to hear her being so vulnerable in every sense of the word.
> she did say she loves us today..
> M
Margaret,So difficult and heartbreaking what your family is going through .I hope you’ll keep writing about it here.Phil Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:46:31 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I echo Phil’s comment, Margaret. It never gets easier as she gets older. It would hurt me to realize the crushing, squeezing permanence of that. Caring for aging parents can be a horrible burden to bear.
Have you tried giving your mother mentally stimulating games for her to try out to slow the cognitive decline? Maybe a card or puzzle game? Just an idea…
Jack wrote:
And I quote:
“Phil stated that you were capable of defending yourself, but now like Patrick, seemingly, you’d now like someone else to do your ***** work.”
I asked Phil if he could talk to Jack in my place while I focus on other things. Jack goes on to say that I am asking Phil to do my shit work for me.
So, by Jack’s own admission, talking to him is shit work. Fair enough!
This I feel is the great benefit in blogging … getting ‘the mirror’ put back to oneself by showing that talking to Jack is shit work.
😀
OK, back to other stuff now.
hi Jack and all. I just want to say that I don’t mind Guru’s humor. I know that it is a defense; but as a class clown myself I know it developed out of necessity. It is a form of communication and entertainment. I like your jokes too, Jack. When nothing is happening on the blog Guru’s funny posts are a good conversation starter. Some times I just like to laugh. And some times laughing can lead to tears. Maybe all the emotions are mixed together, one releasing the other.
I too read Janov’s articles. It helps me to know where all my anxieties come from, from very early time. And It’s good to read about where confusion got started that keeps one from concentrating with too busy of a mind. Where else can we read about that stuff and reverse it.
Sylvia: Where else indeed.
Jack
> UG,
> until not that long ago my mom did enjoy solving cryptograms. don’t know if she still does, will ask her..
> partly her medication probably suppresses some of her spirit, but the dilemma is if she does not take it she becomes very paranoid and starts imagining stuff and doing weird things occasionally like bury stuff in the garden, like keys and money..
> and it is painful to watch her in that state emptying and checking her purse over and over and over and over, so as long as she lives by herself it seems best for her and for all of us she continues with the medication.
> when she has company she still seems to function well, or reasonably well, and is actually better now at listening and hearing us out, and responding well to what we say.
> so well, doing our best to do what seems best under the circumstances..
> M
> today had my computerpal here all day. apart from dropping a large pan full of food, could save still more than half of it, things went fine, learned a lot again, and we decided not to do a possible upgrade from my laptop.
> but really interesting was trying out an i-phone using voice over, which turned out to be really easy, so it promises to be a good tool, and toy I can use in many ways.. might offer myself one for let’s say christmas, smiley, any excuse will do as some of my other electronic gear starts wearing out..
> a new challenge and new territories to explore..
> feel a bit worn out though, and tomorrow morning a large shopping spree coming up..
> got the synopsis of my present course ready though, so hey, almost all is good momentarily!
> linda, are you still there? how are you doing???
> M
It feels like I am preparing or ‘getting there’ to no longer be on this blog. It feels right and actually better for me not to be on it. That said my uncle Euge just died he was my Mom’s brother. Anyway below is something I wrote to my family today it has become somewhat of a ‘tradition’ I wrote something when my Mom’s sister died 2 years ago and the family liked it very much and asked my if I wanted to do something similar. So for some reason I felt like posting it here…………….maybe to show there is maybe another side to me I am not all anger and frustration even if here I mostly have been. And now it feels like that was my ‘home’ life a lot of bullying and frustration but I have/had another side, the side that was encouraged and developed when I was ‘farmed out’ to my Mom’s people. It’s like 2 sides of a coin the blissful ecstatic part and the frustrated and hurt part. Anyway there are some references here might be hard to place but it’s not important just the general import I was aiming at. Also I am sending this to my family don’t want to sound too ‘primal’ about it but put it in ordinary language……………….
To the Family blog, not that there is one really it is just one of Jarlath and my jokes. It is only meant for the immediate family no need to show it to any ‘strangers’ and that includes Euge’s family. Please forward to Helena and Mairead I do not seem to have their email address. Anyway I was a bit inspired’ by Jarlath’s recollection of Euge I found it moving and touching in a very real way. The kind of simplicity I can mostly just aspire to. Anyway Jim seemed to like my little thing about Joan when she died and seems to encourage me to write something again so I suppose I am encouraged even if I hesitate I’m afraid it would come off as self indulgent or some kind of demented product of the ‘me generation’.
Anyway I decide to bash ahead about my memories of Euge. Starting with last Summer when Mam died I was talking to Euge at the wake and about my time living there with them in Dromavalla when I was I dunno 2 to 3.5 years old. Euge told me they laughed about the reason I was there. The house in Goulane was in danger of “filling up with small fellas” so their job was to take the pressure off by having me out ‘on loan’. Jim might appreciate the soccer echoes in that. So I was there and it’s interesting I can still remember many things about my time there, the beautiful ‘trap’ we went to Mass in my legs covered in a nice blanket to keep warm, the roads in place having a ‘river’ running through them and the excitement of passing over the river in the pony and trap, the hens and ducks around the yard in the area, the smoky open fire they cooked with big black pots and pans, playing with Grandad spinning his fists round each other and me ‘learning’ to do it and be able to keep up with him, Gran and Joan went to town and came back and made a big deal out of me and the fact I had not gone but I didn’t mind and didn’t understand why they had to ‘apologize’ and to make up for it they brought me a beautiful small ball that they kept bouncing towards me. I tried to reach up and catch it but could not but it was not a problem. I say ‘beautiful’ because it had all these swirling colors on it you might say a psychedelic ball before the word was even in the language but I had always a keen nose for the ‘future’ even in those times lol. The ‘ball frame’ I learned my numbers adding and subtracting on again with beautiful colors, And bricks colors again for letters. Other memories too but I do not want to go on too long
But what I want to convey is it was a beautiful environment for me I loved it there it is not an exaggeration to say. Not to bring a negative note in but now thinking about it if felt a lot better than Goulane and what is telling for me is I remember so much from there. When I went back home I don’t remember very much at all. Was the environment different more ‘harsh’ somehow it feels like it was. Goulane was by comparison something like a ‘work camp’ all work and production. I can’t remember anything at all when I came back the next memory is first day in Castle school and very soon being chased by Brendan Griffin in Stradblly. A great difference in atmosphere and I even think that was behind me going to boarding school at 13 the kind of bullying etc at the hands of the Finns, Ready’s and let’s not forget the Griffins just felt so wrong. Out of this world wrong and I wanted to get as far away from it as possible.
Anyway I AM going on too long and I have not mentioned Euge in Dromavalla. Truthfully I did not have so much to do with him he was busy and if I remember correctly did the majority of the work on the farm. But and really this is my only memory of him one night he came back from working kind of late. Everyone else had their food already but what I remember about him is how ‘un-complaining’ he was if I remember correctly the food was pretty much gone and he was having a mug of tea and just some bread with maybe a slice of cake for desert. He sort of wolfed down his food he was hungry and had been working many hours but seems so content and happy with his you might say ‘humble’ lot. It made some kind of impression on me just that content and humble attitude to life no complaining or any kind of prima donna behavior. Was I unconsciously comparing his attitude to Father’s maybe I was somehow. The only other memory is of him driving the horse and trap which I have spoken about already.
As I say I had not so much to do with Euge but another memory seems relevant.
I had broken my leg at 7 years old and the whole family was going off to see my mother’s people over the hill. Anyway without thinking about it I figured I would just be left behind alone at home, but my brother and sister (James & Margaret) helped me out of the bed (broken leg and all) and dressed me and I ended up going! I remember later that evening sitting in the front seat of the car and Uncle Euge feeding me sweets and watching a kind of fireworks show and thinking…………….this is Heaven and how close I was to Hell (if it wasn’t for my brother and sister)
Well that’s it but it was a beautiful feeling sitting with him in the Morris Minor I suppose everyone else had left somewhere but just me and him there and I suppose it reminded me of better days the long ago days when I lived there even if it actually was only maybe 4 or 5 years before. Felt somehow like a lost paradise if that is not an exaggeration. This comes to mind for some reason a bit shortened version of Wordsworth’s’ “Ode on the Intimations of immortality” which Father used to quote to us (James and me) in the fields sometimes
THERE was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight,
To me did seem
Apparell’d in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream. 5
It is not now as it hath been of yore;—
Turn wheresoe’er I may,
By night or day,
The things which I have seen I now can see no more.
The rainbow comes and goes, 10
And lovely is the rose;
The moon doth with delight
Look round her when the heavens are bare;
Waters on a starry night
Are beautiful and fair; 15
The sunshine is a glorious birth;
But yet I know, where’er I go,
That there hath pass’d away a glory from the earth.
Ye blessèd creatures, I have heard the call
Ye to each other make; I see
The heavens laugh with you in your jubilee;
My heart is at your festival, 40
My head hath its coronal,
The fulness of your bliss, I feel—I feel it all.
O evil day! if I were sullen
While Earth herself is adorning,
This sweet May-morning, 45
And the children are culling
On every side,
In a thousand valleys far and wide,
Fresh flowers; while the sun shines warm,
And the babe leaps up on his mother’s arm:— 50
I hear, I hear, with joy I hear!
—But there’s a tree, of many, one,
A single field which I have look’d upon,
Both of them speak of something that is gone:
The pansy at my feet 55
Doth the same tale repeat:
Whither is fled the visionary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star, 60
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come 65
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy,
But he beholds the light, and whence it flows, 70
He sees it in his joy;
The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature’s priest,
And by the vision splendid
Is on his way attended; 75
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into the light of common day.
Earth fills her lap with pleasures of her own;
Yearnings she hath in her own natural kind,
And, even with something of a mother’s mind, 80
And no unworthy aim,
The homely nurse doth all she can
To make her foster-child, her Inmate Man,
Forget the glories he hath known,
And that imperial palace whence he came. 85
Our souls have sight of that immortal sea
Which brought us hither,
Can in a moment travel thither, 170
And see the children sport upon the shore,
And hear the mighty waters rolling evermore.
And O ye Fountains, Meadows, Hills, and Groves,
Forebode not any severing of our loves!
Yet in my heart of hearts I feel your might;
I only have relinquish’d one delight 195
To live beneath your more habitual sway.
I love the brooks which down their channels fret,
Even more than when I tripp’d lightly as they;
The innocent brightness of a new-born Day
Is lovely yet; 200
The clouds that gather round the setting sun
Do take a sober colouring from an eye
That hath kept watch o’er man’s mortality;
Another race hath been, and other palms are won.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, 205
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.
I hope that was not too much ‘me generation’ but it is my memories of Euge Lord have Mercy on his Soul.
Well U2 ARE Irish…………….we are proud of them……………..””I’m more than you know/I’m more than you know//you don’t see me/though I am not invisible”
Yes, Patrick, you ARE “more than we know”. And the real you is “not invisible”. So please show us the us the courtesy and respect that many of us (especially Margaret) deserve, and expose your true self (feelings, past and present without the ……need to say/write things/feelings to us here on the blog that you really need(ed) to say/feel in your past, but were unable to because it was not safe.You are safe now Patrick. People here only ‘attack’ or challenge…. the ‘stories’ ** that you tell yourself…please…understand that this is a safe place to do so. The false, and obnoxious self, that you present here as a time wasting character of a troll that you present on this blog is not believed . I DARE you: Present the true, hurt, vulnerable person that we all know that you are. The only person that you are fooling is yourself. Buy a mirror and use it. You will be praised and accepted here if you have the courage to do so. I write this with empathy. I see you as a person with immense internal strength that you understandably focus in the wrong direction ( ie: you focus it outward as opposed to inward.) I also believe what Gretchen wrote a while back; something to the effect that it matters not, what anyone of us says to you on this blog as to the decisions that you make. ( My interpretation being: that all comments to you are futile. With the implication that we should save our energy.) Again, I empathize with your…defenses. They are a necessary components of today’s cultures and your past. You were not safe, none of us were, in our/pasts. But you are safe now…in the present.. to allow yourself to feel how frightened you were in the past to feel the fear of feeling vulnerable………. Having said all this……………………… I too, am frightened to expose myself here on this blog . But I am a consummate coward. But NOT a bully/ internet troll. My view on bullies has always been that they are extremely sensitive and insightful humans that have to defend themselves against the myriad and painful aspects of their lives by ….. well….being a bully…..or preempting the possibility of being hurt. I have written many responses to your MANY entries on this blog but realized that they were all about my own personal ( unmet )needs from my past so I did not post them. I tried, as best I could, to feel the underlying feeling. And I ….felt …well….what Gretchen wrote on the blog a while back that nothing any of the other bloggers/me us has written here will affect(effect?) your actions. …..Jeese Patrick…I think that perhaps we are all (All of the bloggers that have responded to you) are trying to engulf/ huge you via the internet, with a aura of empathy and acceptance of your TRUE feelings expressed here , however hidden that you may think them (your true emotions/feelings).
But I have to admit, that the possible futility of your accepting their love/time probably triggers feelings of the futility of them ever accepting the fact that their parents didn’t and never will …accept their energy/love/acceptance.
PS I will not read or respond to anything that you write if it speaks of “Trollness” and I hope that the rest of the people on this blog will do so. Because evidently none of you Googled “Internet Troll” and how to deal with such.
Do none of you read and follow thru the wisdom of Gretchen’s entries? ? ?
So.
Bottom line Patrick…..If I lived anywhere close to where you live I would show up on your doorstep, unannounced, and engulf you in a embrace/hug wherein I would be focusing all my energy and attention on trying to embed you with the realization that you were safe in my embrace to feel how unsafe that you were /have felt that you were NOT safe in your past.
This I do as a one and only attempt to reach the ….non troll side of you because it is a day of….thanks…giving. And I sincerely thank you for your entries on this blog, most of which I have not read….because I feel that they are mostly redundant. But it has enabled me to see myself in you, and try and honestly deal with the issues that you use your powerful strength and survival mechanisms to avoid acknowledging in a feeling manner.
Thank you Patrick (the Troll) , for allowing me to see the person that I am capable of being, but choose NOT to be. But instead seeing the person that I am capable of being.
I don’t expect you, Patrick ( or most of the readers here) to understand or relate all the seemingly discrepancies and seemingly contradictions contained within this entry.
If any of you have waded through this…well….I’m am sure that I have ,NOT, on a feeling level ,waded thru it thoroughly myself. But….in my cowardly defense… who of us here has waded thru all their….repressed stuff? I needed to verbally speak. And I did.
But…. your time spent reading is appreciated.
Happy turkey day…………..
** “Stories That We Tell Ourselves” : ref: Brene Brown
Will: I read it through it all and thought it brave, thoughtful, caring and very honest. I will save it a re read it to get more into what you are saying. I did wonder, if in the past, reading Patricks comments if there was one word that summed up what you felt. If you find this last remark facetious, don’t respond, unless to say you felt it was facetious. Enough for the moment.
Jack
Will: I’ve re-read your post and I agree that you are very empathetic towards Partick’s inner self. The only thing I did notice was that the gravitar by your post was the same as Patrick’s. I think if you mistakenly put in Patrick’s name in the boxes after writing your comment, that would account for it. If you put your name or psuedonym and your email address you will get a gravitar of your own assigned by WordPress. Your email will not be revealed on your entry. Only Atty at the Institute has access to that, as far as I am aware.
Hope you will feel confident enough to add some of your own stuff as time passes. I personally find commenting and reading the blog quite therapeutic. Not quite as good as sessions or buddying but a good alternative. Meantime take great care and hope to hear more from you.
Jack
Welcome to the blog, Will Graham. Kind of a convoluted post, as you alluded, but I waded through, because you are new and interesting to get to know.
Will Graham, I like what you posted and hope to read more from you. Phil Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:51:45 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
> from today our alarm level got raised in brussels from 3 to 4, the highest level, red alert..
> the subways are closed, concerts and football games canceled, etcetera…
> it does make me feel occasional spurts of unexpected sadness, having to do with these kind of lunatics around, aiming at harming as many as possible innocent people in large quantities, just to cause terror and disability.
>
> it is getting very close now, specially also for me living between a large Jewish school and the synagogue..
> I seem to worry most, if I worry, about my cats, like what would happen if my windows would be blown away by some explosion nearby, and they would get out or get hurt or worse..
> not that I feel constantly afraid or so, but well, there are clear threats now, and people already got arrested that actually had uniforms of our military and police force, and a rocket launcher, not small stuff really..
> now there is specific proof of threat to large public places and transport and concerts like what happened in Paris, but this time in Brussels..
>
> by now I have heard a lot of those extremists were really kids that were not that religious before, but drinking and going out, one woman that just got blown up here was known as cowgirl, always wearing a cowboy hat, messing around, and she had been abused severely in her childhood, with electro shocks among other things.
> so at least some of these people are simply or not that simply really damaged and therefor even more dangerous, as they are probably beyond many more normal feeling levels, desperate, angry and capable of anything..
>
> very sad and also scary for all the harm they can inflict on so many people.
> and all those Belgians and there are a lot of them, have little or nothing to do really with what happens in the middle east, but merely use it as just another way of looking for whatever they look for, this time some kind of ultimate fight and deluded hope for relief or reward or simply ending of their struggle, and revenge for their pain.
> or just another kick..
> crazy and sad and scary..
> M
That is scary, Margaret, I can see how you would feel uneasy. I saw the news now about the maximum security alert for Brussels. The authorities have been saying there are no “credible” threats for us here but I have to say that at times ;Like this I’m glad to be living in an outer suburb of New York rather than in the city, even though I miss all the advantages of living there.
Phil
That is scary stuff Margaret. Definitely thinking of you…
The violence in thought, word and action is so hard to harness when in the hands of crazed haters.
ox L.
My day to day life generally is fairly low key, especially lately, partly because rain stoppped tennis play a week or so ago. This week I’ve played 3 times, attended an art demo, unexpectedly spent time with a granddaughter yesterday, and attended a quiz night at my tennis club! All great fun!
This morning I treat myself to finally watch “Inside Out” on my iPad… and at the bit where the ‘childhood world’ is becoming lost ‘for ever’, I’m crying buckets….a trigger to how my own childhood was ripped away from me finally at 7, me rejected and dumped at boarding school.
What a powerful movie, and I’m glad I was able to stream it into my own home and let go to crying freely. (Another scar- fear of letting anyone see my feelings).
The other times I get to see movies are on long-haul flights between here and LA, where I stick to comedy (good advice Nick!)
Jo, I went to see “Inside Out” last summer before the retreat and thought it was well done and moving. At the retreat, when movies were being considered I recommended it for anyone not minding that it’s animated, and a few people came back disappointed about it. I thought that it has a good focus on feelings and childhood.
Phil
Absolutely😉
Disappointed with “Inside Out” – not so with the group of people we all went with from The Summer Retreat.
It was so moving and lovely to watch feelings being highlighted, working together and showcased for all their power!
L.
Margaret, the sequence on the blog looks like I’m ignoring you, but I wasn’t.. we must have been writing at the same time.
I was thinking of you during when the crisis was on, those few days, hoping you were safe. I felt concerned also for family and friends in France: it’s awful, but necessary to not let terrorism restrict one’s everyday life, but natural to feel some alarm.
> that’s ok Jo, my comments appear with a delay anyway after I write them and semd then to Phil to be pasted on the blog.
> sometimes depending of the hour of the day short, sometimes several hours of delay, so my own comments must regrularly seem like I am ignoring whatever is going on in real time..
> I have just heard on the news there is a rumour chemical weapons have been found during some house search, lord, imagine what lunatics can do wiht weapons like that!
> it is even worse than the rocket launcher they found last week..
> M
Margaret:
I’m going to take a chance here and ask that you consider something totally counterintuitive. If you are worried about terror attacks in Brussels, I would actually start to breathe a huge sigh of relief that there is a code red terror alert in the city if I were you. Why?
Imagine a bank robber standing outside Wells Fargo bank with 1 million euros in the safe and KBC bank also with 1 million euros in their safe down the street. You hear all over the news that authorities are keeping a careful watch for potential bank robbers at Wells Fargo. A code red alert. If you were that bank robber, which bank would you rob for maximum profit? Rob Wells Fargo with the authorities monitoring it? Or rob KBC bank down the street lying in the shadows? In the same vein, terrorists need an element of surprise to ensure maximum effectiveness. Why would they attack a city under high alert?
So, I suggest breathing a sigh of relief that there is a code red alert in Brussels. It may mean you are actually safer than you were previously.
I have my own speculative reasons as to exactly why this alert took place. Cynical reasons that may not necessarily be true, so I will leave it at that.
I just returned from a conference of many cultures detailing their histories and restored hopes for children. So fascinating that I had just visited Haida Gwaii this summer and then to hear more history – for example how it was 150 proof liquor that was first introduced to our indigenous people there as medicine in the 1800’s. No wonder there was such illness, alcoholism and death…
The hopeful parts included-
The new 3 R’s for education (formally reading, ‘riting, ‘rithmetic – with hideous spelling 🙂 are to be – hopefully anyway – relational, reflective, & restorative.
People from the Dali Lama Centre introduced heartmindonline.org – an interactive and intuitive on line learning resource for anyone who cares for and about children.
L.
The site looks like a good resource Leslie.
I’m pretty sure your pupils feel helped and supported by you..I’m in awe of anyone who teaches children en masse!
Amazingly, all my children and their spouses are, and have been, teachers, (though not all school teachers) and their experience in some of the British and French schools has been primarily about behaviour control, and immigrants unable to speak English or French…sooo hard…
Thanx Jo. It does get to class management & control when 1 teacher has so many students in our schools. I still have hope that recognition of all the needs that are to be met for learning to occur is coming…
L.
> guru,
> two things, first is I don’t live in Brussels but in the nearest lrge city to it, and second, the days there is red alert might be safer, but the red alert cannot last forever and what when it is lifted?
> I am not living in fear, but it definitely is not a good feeling some crazy fanatics are there lurking to make a cowardly vicious attack, possibley even with chemical weapons..
> not only for mmyself but for the possible victims and for freedom of thought’s sake.
> M
> guru, that was me!
> and largest town, f.. the automatic spelling control etc.
> M
OK, that’s fine, Margaret. I’m just saying I wouldn’t worry too much about what’s going on….yet, I suppose I shouldn’t lift you away from the bad feeling.
> Patrick, at first I was not going to respond but well, I changed my mind.
> I did not even recall having written that, but well, I obviously did, but it must have been in reaction to some kind of attack from you on someone, as it merely reflects one aspect of how I feel about you, or rather about you when you behave in a certain way, kicking around like a blind horse for example.
> I have said many other things to you, and generally speaking am not out to hurt you.
> maybe this also strikes a chord of something you rather do not want to look at in yourself.
> I am not gonna struggle about anything here, have expressed myself in many ways to you already, and if this happened to be one of my last reactions to you, I am sorry as it is not a nice one, I admit, but you must also admit you have kind of set yourself up with your constant offensive attacks to actually everyone here, and well, what you give is what you get.
> I have repeatedly stated I have seen good sides of you, but well, that was then and since then tons of bitterness and anger and agression seem to have piled up for resons only you can unravel, and that is truely a shame as I do wish you the best actually.
> but well, as I say, if you behave like a jerk occasionally, and you must know you do, you also get my honest negative reaction, as honesty is the best I have to offer.
> the times I reached out to you or tried to help you by asking stuff you never responded, so well, fair enough, that’s your choice but still I see the pattttern of behaving both like a bully and like a victim.
> hope you break through that cycle one day.
> M
Having read the comment I felt as Guru did . I did not think you were referring to Patrick but to something specific to Phil . Maybe he can answer that. Gretch
> I doubt I was referring to Phil, can imagine it was to Patrick though..
> can’t believe after all the insults he treated everyone with this would now be an issue, ha, so to clear all doubt, I still think Patrick behaves in a crazy way when he gets into that kind of rage that makes him lash out with the only goal to hurt as much as he can whoever is within reach.
> I feel I can say this as he has a choice and knows better if only he would want to make the effort.
> with ‘crazy’ I mean the state of being he chooses for, the sttate of acting out his anger instead of searching for what it really is about.
> M
Don’t misunderstand, if the comment was directed to Patrick then it was, no value judgement. It was simply if you read the original comment it truly seemed you were talking about someone else. Since you don’t remember saying it I thought it was possibly someone else you were referencing . I will try to post the comment here. ” yes, there are so many hiddden agendas in the middle east, oil, power, money…loads of money are poured into isis, they really hand it out to anyone coming over, so no wonder a lot of young people give it a try..discouraging , and sad. crazy P still there isn’t he?
are you ok otherwise? take care, M”
Gretch
I thought that in this comment Margaret was referring to Patrick still beingon the blog, but I wasn’t sure.Phil
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:39:18 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I haven’t looked at the blog since I last posted (Sunday morning). For some reason I am ‘happy’ about that feels like some real ‘progress’ to me. More inward focused less distracted by all the ‘attention’ most of it negative lol………….
But Gretchen I have to ask are you being ‘serious’ in any way here? You KNOW it is pretty much ONLY to me that Margaret or pretty much anyone else would feel all right with casually referring to me as ‘crazy’ and not only that implying like I am ‘stalking’ the blog or something. Whatever……………….not a big deal and maybe you were in some weird way trying to ‘spare’ my feelings. Well thanks Gretchen if you were…………but it’s ok I have had to deal with worse and really I do believe in the law of Karma……………I MUST have brought all this about and on myself.
Margaret – I am sorry for going ‘over the top’ with you. You are correct it is not enough for me to express my displeasure or whatever it’s like I HAVE to ‘hurt back’. I do realize more and more I go that bit too far the bit that bothers people but also the bit I seem to need to do. To hurt back if someone is hurting you to the point of danger it is important to ‘hurt back’ for pure survival. And we are all above all concerned with ‘survival’ but i am aware I am now just talking about myself. To ‘survive’; I had to ‘hurt back’ it is important for me but sorry that you got it there..
Patrick: once again you are stating a notion of yours that in essence is anything but what you state:- “To hurt back if someone is hurting you to the point of danger it is important to ‘hurt back’ for pure survival.” It is merely your notion that it is a “survival mechanism. Your reality, if you care to look closely enough demonstrate; it does quite the reverse and alienates you.
Being Irish and still Catholic, I assume, I quote back to you the biblical saying:- “If he slaps yea on the one cheek … turn and let him slap thee on the other”. Commonly refered to as “turning the other cheek” I contend it’s worth a thought.
Jack
I was attempting to sort of describe an ‘old feeling’ and only MY ‘old feeling’…………..I would have thought that might be acceptable………….well I guess not it does not pass the ‘primally correct censor’………………….how weird is that. Of course you do not ‘represent’ primal therapy and I am sure Gretchen or just about anyone could and does do better…………..but you sort of ‘appoint’ yourself there a most unfortunate situation…………still a process is judged by its ‘results’ and if you are the result a very bad sign indeed……………..meanwhile you can go back to dripping tears onto your keyboard I suppose it confirms to you that you are still ‘alive’………….are you?
If you were indeed attempting to describe an old feeling, that I feel was great. Sorry! but I didn’t see it that way. However, since you’ve known me all these years, you know I am not perfect.
However, amid my imperfections, I did gather from this comment of yours that you still wish to hit back. All I can say from what I am able to see of myself; none of your remarks about me, hurt me. That’s not to say that others making similar remark might hurt. I could well be wrong, but I suspect you did yourself more alienation by them than you affected any retaliation towards me. If I am correct (that could be arguable) then maybe you could look into the source of yours, as you suggested you were trying to do and if you are doing that I find that admirable.
Jack
To all:
Whilst the current crisis’ in the world are just getting more and more insane (neurotic) I do not think we in the West, and in particular the country I come from; the UK, is blameless. The rational, as I see it, is revenge (vengeance towards those that exploited and took advantage of them). That is no justification BUT, hopefully from a psychological perspective, it could well explain their deeper reasonings. Sadly, the actual ones that did the exploiting are not the ones that suffer, merely the exploiters are enraged; then counter it with their own form of revenge, and justify it in like manner … madness.
The whole thing is likely to spiral way out of control and then we are ALL in it. Gretchen’s remark that it is about ” oil, power and money”does I feel sum it all up, BUT offers no solution. The nearest to any sane solution I have come across is Bernie Sanders. Alas, though I agree with him more than any other; I don’t feel he has the charisma to carry his agenda forward. I don’t feel the US is ready for any form of ‘socialism’ … ‘too much water under the bridge’, especially after “The Un American Activities’ and the McArthur period.
I think by now most know my suggestion, but whilst a simple concept, could be a difficult transition. However, other than Guru (who’s keeping his solution under wraps) I see no other idea, other than:- “to bomb the hell out of them” and hope they all go away. I tend to feel many are now coming around to know this is potentially hazardous.
I know little enough of Jewish history to site their idea/s, but I am aware that Christians have not had a very benevolent history of “kindness & compassion”. Maybe Islam needs to go through it’s own evolution. Historically we humans in the name of “righteousness” (religion) have committed many atrocities.
The whole thing saddens me greatly.
Jack
Jack,It looks like things were better when dictators were in full control in Syria, Iraq,and Libya. But maybe over time those countries might have effective political development. I read an interesting book that past year entitled “Political Order and PoliticalDecay; From the Industrial Revolution to the Globalization of Democracy” by Francis Fukuyama.I don’t recommend the book as I found it rather dry and academic but it containedsome interesting information on what is needed for effective modern nations to form.It is a very mistaken notion to think that democratic systems can be imposed oncounties that lack effective institutions, an emerging middle class which will demand reforms, democratic accountability, and the rule of law. Those were thesome of the themes of the book. I don’t think Afghanistan has ever been an effectivenation, for example. The central government has not been able to enforce the rule of law, at least not without ruthless human rights violations. The countries I mentioned above. have some of the same problems. As you mentioned, these countries also lackcohesion because of the history of colonial exploitation.An analysis of the US is that special interests havecaptured large parts of the government and little or nothing is being done about thisbecause of political gridlock. Phil
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:02:46 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: In many respects I feel the book you mentioned did hit on some fundamental flaws of those nation, BUT does not reveal the still outstanding flaws of so-called ‘developed-nations’. There is a conceit with Western democracies, that we have gotten it all sorted out. If that were so then there would be no poverty, no hideous cruelty of some upon others, no racism, no greed from corporations (only caring for their own beneficiaries, ie:- CEO’s Investors and higher managers.)
The notion that societies as we know them are the best that can be, runs counter to mankind’s ancient, ancient history (a la Winston Churchill), and has been refuted by several thinkers in the past. The most notable are Proudhon, and Karl Marx; but there are many others. These thinkers had the genius to know what was amiss, but somewhat remiss in their solutions.
What is worth remembering is that in our very early childhood (for the most part beyond our conscious memories).we were “BRAINWASHED” in the most horrific manner. Most of this “Brainwashing”, neurotically jumps out at us, the minute anyone suggest the abolition of that, that is keeping us repressed.
That is the very nature of “Neurosis” our very unremitting disease; brilliantly expressed with Primal Theory.
Jack
Jack, The book I mentioned was limited in it’s focus to political development.
I agree that developed nations have many flaws.
Some hope could be, if it were true, that there is any general improvement in parenting.
I’m not seeing it though. Mothers are all out working and hospital procedures are still
harsh for newborns etc.
Phil
I have a take on the question you mentioned “I’m not seeing it though. Mothers are all out working and hospital procedures are still harsh for newborns etc.” Often mothering is inadvertently imposed on many women for a number of neurotic reasons. In a fully feeling world I strongly feel most of this would never occur. However it still rests with me, we are desperately hanging onto that, that keeps us repressed and unconscious … of especially those very, very, very early moments.
Were that to be eliminated, the rest would all fall into place … BUT, I grant that necessitates a conceptual leap. The only alternative is in reliving ones early, early months to inwardly know that were were screwed.
Jack
Jack,
You say among other things ” In a fully feeling world I strongly feel most of this would never occur”. I’m quite pessimistic about us ever achieving a fully feeling world.
Very few people seem to be aware that there is a path out of neurosis and it seems unlikely that will change anytime soon. Also, even if known, the therapeutic process takes such a long time.
In the absence of a fully feeling world progress is still happening I think,
even when societies are set up on a neurotic basis. But it is just too slow.
Phil
Phil: I have been with this notion now for over 50 years. It’s been a slow incremental development of how it might take place. I say migh, because no-one actually knows … BUT as my thinking goes (especially before I read “The Primal Scream”) I too pondered how it might take place. Eventually after much discussion with like minded people and lots of reading; (Kropotkin, Bakunin et alI) I hit upon the notion that we needed to REMOVE that, that kept the whole ‘shebang’ in place.
I contend, just as in gestation if left to our very own devises we naturally become fully feeling creatures. The complications occur when that natural process is thwarted. If, as I reasoned, being natural was the easy route; it needed no theories, science or even understanding. It would just naturally happen; as it does with most other creature not interfered with by us humans; ie. domestication.
Since, as Javov has over stated on many occasions, being natural is the easy way. It’s being unnatural that is the hardest and the most demanding. We prefer to go the Pavlov and B. F. Skinner route, and study behavior and encapsulate from that; all manner of suppositions. Hence I conjectured from my thinking in terms of the easy natural route that there should be a very easy natural route that does not entail psycho therapy … albeit Primal or otherwise.
What we do; being neurotic, is fail to see the easy route of being NATURAL. When we see it all from our own neurosis (we have no other choice) then we’ll do all in our power to maintain it. Take the “UN-NATURAL ELEMENT” out of it then “voila” we’ll say “Hey why didn’t we think of ALL this before” Historically we’ve done this many times in the past. It’s not without reason to suppose that just eradicating that, that is keeping us STUCK … we’ll be emancipated.
If one is willing to ponder that … then all this notion of there are too many bad guys out there … little realizing that the very un-naturalness has created the ‘so-called’ “bad guys”. Without money or a means of exchange there is little need for criminality.
Jack
Jack,I’m not seeing how money is the key to the whole thing. Take away money and we will still all be neurotic. As I mentioned in an earlier post, greed and lust for power, I believe,will still exist even without money., and all the other ways we areneurotic. Someone will always wanta larger or better share of whatever is available: food, housing, sex, etc.,and will want power over others.Maybe I misunderstand whatyou are saying. It is our early relationships and lack of love that makeus neurotic, not our economic systems.Phil Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 01:49:12 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: one last shot. But first:- I found this and the other discourse between us very stimulating for me and (to repeat); kept me ‘on my toes’.
If all ones needs were met then such desires as “greed”, “lust for power”, “sexual prowess”, etc. etc,. would evaporate. It’s the very lack of fulfilling our needs, that cause the former. However, to repeat:- that “concept,” needs investigating. Few are willing to indulge it..
Finally, I did meet at one retreat, a very young Primal guy that was an avowed anarchist … like myself … no desire to inflict any harm on anyone. He and I were designated as buddies and he was reluctant on our first buddy session, to be, as he put it, with a very much older guy and gay to boot … nevertheless, after the retreat we became very good friends, until his return to his home in Florida some one year later.
Jack
I am so tired of aloneness, isolation, fear, and self-doubt. I so long for friendship, companionship, fun, laughter and joy.
yeah….thanks for verbally expressing what all of us feel….whether or not we know it or feel it
It is comforting to know that we are not alone in our feelings . Which i guess is what this blog is all about.
Back to more personal stuff. Last night when I was alone here I again revisited some childhood themes. I’m realizing more and more how important my sister was to me and what I
hoped to get from her. I was deprived of love from my mother, and although my
grandmother was around, she was never a real substitute. At times I could get something
of what I so desperately needed from my sister. This was very sporadic because
she was just a child or a young adult and was gone from our house for long periods of
time. She never came close to fulfilling the role as a mother to me, that I apparently unconsciously wanted. But as we got older I worshiped her; she was extremely cool,
a hippy. She introduced me to lot’s of good music and I was impressed with her lifestyle.
She traveled all over the place and seemed to have many good friends.
A big contrast to our home which was a very depressed place. My father was very depressed
and needy.
My sister ultimately rebelled and wanted nothing more to do with the family. We were all too much for her to take care of. She never wanted such a role. Yet, if it wan’t for her, I’d have been so much worse off. I really loved her. We’ve had no relationship at all as adults.and that’s very sad.
I was crying about all of this last night.
For some reason I haven’t been fully realizing all this about my sister and what she meant to me.
Phil
Phil: I wonder what would happen if your sister read what you just posted?
Guru,”I wonder what would happen if your sister read what you just posted?” Nothing at all would happen. My sister only wants to look ahead, not to thepast. She doesn’t realize, as I do, how the past can be holding you back,and what can be done about it. I did try to explain this to her during the oneperiod of time we’ve communicated in the last 30 years, but she couldn’t getit. I will have to accept that she is lost to me I’m afraid. Phil
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:44:52 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Guru,
It would be helpful if I had a good relationship with my sister, but there is no reason to believe that can or will happen; I have tried. And anyway, the stuff from the past remains for me to work on.
Phil
I’m glad you are able to begin feeling what she meant to you.
What I hate most is loss. Loss that is forever hurts the most, is the hardest to reconcile, drains the most vitality from life. I want to run fast and hard from forever loss. Paradoxically, accepting it heals. Excruciating choice.
I went into PT to get me. I hadn’t parlayed increasing loss into the transaction.
I’m not ready for them to be gone yet, not forever. I want Noreen back. I still need my Mom and Dad.
This therapy doesn’t bring them back for me. It just presents me with loss don’t want to see, don’t want to know, to feel, in exchange for getting some of me back. Hard bargain. Real hard.
Larry,
I agree with what you say. I think the only good alternative is to see and feel the losses,
but it is so difficult.
Phil
Mommy I need you.
Hi Larry
As you know, every concious, and unconscious moment, all I want is to be connected to my mum.
Today, I came up with a ‘perfect’ solution. As it seems that I’ll never get, what I missed out on, it came to me that when my end is near, and hopefully I’ll still be mobile enough, I will drive out to the cemetery and go to my mum’s grave, lie down on top of it and die. ‘Somehow’ by that deed, I’ll be as close as I can ever be to my mum. even thinking about it I get emotional. Finally, we are together. Forever.
I may have written about a documentary where a little monkey, after leaving his tribe and becoming the leader of an other tribe, when his time came, he went back to his original tribe’s cave to die.
So I am not doing anything untoward, that evolution does not dictate, right?
Can you imagine, finally together. Close to each other. never to be separated. CONNECTED.
Ah……
Tom
Sounds like a sad, desperate, unhealthy solution, Tom, but understandable.
When I visit the site where Noreen’s ashes rest on a beach on the Pacific Ocean, I feel an urge to walk into the ocean and be under the waves with her, at peace, together forever. But I don’t crave it. I cry when my visit is over and I leave her resting place to get on with life without her.
Larry: Just those few lines of you being on the shore and walking into the waves to be with the love of your life … for a few seconds. It made me cry. I’m dripping tears all over the keyboard as I type this and remembering when my mammy left me on the first day at school at 4 y/o and I cried out: “Please… don’t leave me mammy. That whole alien building and the high ceiling … it was a whole other world I’d never known before, but she left
Now other memories are just flooding in.
Jack. …
I’m sorry you have those painful memories, Jack, but it is good they are opening up to you.
Larry: Thanks for the comment, but they are not painful and I’ve had most of them several times. Sad yes, but when I express them as I feel I am able to, any residual pain evaporates.
Expressing most of my feelings is the great gift I got out of therapy.
When comment like the one you sent trigger any of mine, I am able to drop into them. No big deal for me.
Jack
Larry your remark, on reflecting on it after I responded; somewhat pissed me off, since I got the feeling of an inuendo behind your remark was “Oh! Jack is FINALLY getting into some of his feelings” I could well be wrong, but that was the feeling I read (eventually) into it.
Strangly on our first meeting you said words to the effect, you were envious of my zest for life, or that is what I thought I heard. My feeling about myself, though I could well be in denial, is that luckily I got good therapy and from my own early life some love. Mainly my mother and my mother’s mother. Pure good fortune I admit.
Larry I personally do not suffer from loniness. I often feel alone, but to me, lonliness is suffering aloneness. In your case that is absolutely understandable.
Further; for the most part I am not in Primal pain. Primal Pain as I understand it is when feelings are NOT expressed. If the feeling is expressed the pain evaporates. That, as I read it is:- Primal Theory. I feel I got an excellent deal out of my therapy. I rarely suffer from Primal Pain. I often feel sad; less often angry, then even more rarely; fear (terror). I sit with those feelings, and best I know how, express them.
Jack
If that is how you felt about my caring remark Jack, then I sense you are a touchy guy, touchy being defined as:
(of a person) oversensitive and irritable.
synonyms: sensitive, oversensitive, hypersensitive, easily offended, thin-skinned, high-strung, tense;
Larry If that initial remark to me was caring. I initially I saw it that way, then on reflection I sensed perhaps an innuendo. If that was not the case then pardon me for another reflexive feeling/thought. Sorry.
However, the need to define touchy with the rest of those defintion I felt was a little unnecessary. You could have left it as just “touchy”. You are probably right, I’m prepared to look at that.
However, it is the additions you sited that gives me a sense you are making another innuendo. If that is not so then again pardon me. Meantime, if I have a feeling about someones response on a feeling blog, I feel it is legitimate to voice it … on the proviso that I am not be accusatory. In other words:- to own my feeling.
Jack.
Phil – that is so sad that your sister still won’t communicate with you.
You did nothing wrong. In fact you loved and as you said worshiped her.
You seem like a you would be such a good brother to have and get to know.
L
> before i read the 22 more comments to go this morning, yes, I see now, I was referring to Patrick still showing up on the blog after a little while of absence, and it was just associative thinking that made me write it in an impulse probably, writing about aggression, I do admit it was more like a casual remark to phil and was not very clear in that comment.
> and more and more I hear the perpetrators of the attacks seem to be people who were already unbalanced, and then all of a sudden go for the very extreme ‘religion’, and it is most often not really a case of having suffered injustice from imperialistic invaders.
> not to say all is right in that area of course.
> we still have the highest level of alert in Brussels, no public transport, no schools, no universities, musea or concerts..
> M
> Phil,
> it is really sad you lost contact with your sister, but it is also positive you get access to those longburied feelings. that is good to hear, despite of the sadness, and hopefully the other side of the coin will be stil more joy in your present life.
> M
Margaret, Yes it is good. I am finding that the feelings about my sister go much deeper than I thought. My crying, which I thought was connected to my mother (and in a way it is related) is really about my sister.
How are you doing?
Phil
> Phil,
> thanks for asking.
> I go a bit up and down..
> just managed with a few phonecalls to encourage my mother to go to the home to play some piano. she was reluctant at first, but I called the home and asked if she would be welcome to do so and maybe sometimes participate with some of their activities. they would inquire about that last bit, but the lady I had on the phone said she would be happy to welcome my mom and bring her to the piano so she could play for a while.
> so I called back to my mom and she felt encouraged enough to go, luckily.
> I hope she has a good time, as she starts sounding really depressed.
> sometimes I wonder if she would be better off again without the medication, but then agin, she was very tense then all the time, and the loud tinitus she had was driving her so mad she felt suicidal at times. now finally the tinitus disappeared, which probably is thanks to the medication easing the stress level, so that is important as it prevented her completely from functioning socially .
> just rechecked to make sure she had really left her house, and will call by the time she gets back as maybe she will still remember then what happened..
> i really feel she would be much better off and eventually happier over there, as it is a very nice place s
> with lots of activities and a very friendly staff.
> so well, to be continued…
> M
Margaret,
I hope your mother has a good time playing the piano over there and that she can
participate in some of the activities. That sounds like a great way to get her comfortable with the idea of moving there.
Phil
> ok, mom did go to the home, and did play some piano. she said it had done her good, so it feels nice to have been able to help her. she seems much more accessible and nicer lately, saying much more easily she loves us, which is nice.
> really glad I managed to cheer her up a bit and to encourage her to go there for some nice moments.
> there were not many music books but I might ask around and well, I told her she is very capable of playing tunes by heart and putting some chords under it, which is true, but she sometimes lacks confidence to start up.
> i actually am proud of her and of how she is when she plays the piano..
> M
Jack, touchy could be interpreted lots of ways, and you seem to be inferring things I never meant, so I decided to paste a definition of what I meant just to be not misunderstood again.
Larry: That explains it to me. However, I did feel that giving the definition and synonyms put “touchy” into a worse meaning. No biggy, though I did consider that I might be being ‘touchy’.
Jack
> called my mom at two, she did not feel like going to the home, she was sleeeping on the couch as usual, called her now, at six, she was still sleeping, did not know it was evening, was reluctant to get up and turn on the light, and then could not find the switch..
> and she sounds so down, I have such a hard time with this.
> sometimes she sounds plaintive which irritates me, sometimes it is clear she is simply very depressed and frail…
> she is also still not sure she will be ok at the home, but is not so argumentative anymore..
> but in this situation she would be much better off there, it is so painful to call her and to know she is like that and mostly on her own..
> nowadays she is always grateful though for calling her and helping her..
> it hurts, makes me sad, and fearful and tense..
> lost as well, and scared..
> M
I know I should let a sleeping dog lie but I can be pretty self destructive so anyway………..the following is something I came across in a book I am reading and it references the anarchists of Barcelona area during the Spanish civil war and Jack has sometimes mentioned them as a ‘model’ about how we might live having ‘abolished money’ living in some kind of blissful state
“The Communists main allies were the anarchists. In regions they managed to control they ABOLISHED CURRENCY (my emphasis) and made all private property public. The general secretary of the Communist Party of Spain Dolores Ibarruri describes her allies in the war as follows “The anarchists organized something like a reign of thieves” Marshal of the Soviet Union Meretskov who fought in Spain called the anarchists ‘jolly butchers’ Even if the Communists themselves had been angels they were destined to defeat with such allies.
It is impossible to win without allies but with such allies it was even more impossible”
I lived for ten years in Catalan country in Spain and from my discourse with them they were NOT thieves. I see the remarks of Dolores Ibarruri as being Communists propaganda. It was Generalissimo Franco (the fascist) that over ran the Catalans and destroyed all remnants of what most considered was a very successful implementation of Anarchy (without hierarchy).
My take about Marxist Communism is that it saw the problem, but put forward a flawed solution as was demonstrated with Stalin’s Russia. Once a leader is empowered she/he is more than reluctant to give up that power. Hence, the withering of the state will never take place … as has been demonstrated in all Communist countries.
Jack
You are probably mostly correct about Communism…………….still to hold out as an ‘example’ of a possibly better way to live but to use a short lived ‘experiment’ like the anarchists in Spain seems well not much of a basis. No need to reply but I am sure you will you always have something to say and want to have the last word. A last word from you would basically be a relief for me. How is your Deportation hearings going?
I guess the above I mean the last sentence is another example of me going too far………..but the way it feels to me someone is torturing me and the only way out is a sharp hook over the eye which might draw some blood……………..still there are two sides to this the other part is I fucking HATE ‘hypocrites’ and to me here we have one in spades………………..tears streaming down on keyboards at the drop of a hat but the ‘reality’ is something else entirely. Blogs of course are perfect for this kind of self promotion that’s why I call him PR man. See what PR this evokes……………my hatred of hypocrits also cannot just be reduced to something about being an Irish Catholic and seeing the ‘hypocricy’ of priests etc. Actually I did not see much if any of that it’s just well we were taught to respect the ‘truth’ something is short supply in primal world the way I see it…………………Janov is STILL going on about bruises appearing on arms as a result of ‘re-living’ birth trauma. It’s like he can’t help himself he has to one more time go to the well and play one of his ‘oldies but goodies’ or one of his ‘greatest hits’ except I don;t think it a hit at all it actually a big flop………………
Settled.
Jack
> an hour ago I again felt frustrated, worried and sad, as I could hardly get my mom get off the couch to eat something, with her on the phone, and she said she could not bring it up to go to the cafetaria and only wanted to sleep some more etc.
> as I say, just making her promise to get up and eat something was quite a struggle, and she promised to try to go to the home maybe, but sounded like she was just saying so really..
> I called her boyfriend a bit later to tell him I feel worried about her sleeping the days away and he ended up promising to call her more regularly also during the day to encourage her to get out.
> and you know waht, just ten minutes ago she did
> call me, a thing she hadn’t done for six months or so, and told me she was going out to the home for a drink and a chat and maybe some piano!
> he must have called her as well, which must have helped to cheer her up and he must have mentioned in a good way I worried, and she made that call that actually means a lot to me somehow..
> It takes a lot of energy and dedication to make myself call her if necessary twice or even three times a day, but as she seems to appreciate it and be helped by it, I can think back of times like this to feel I am doing something good in a hard situation.. feel like crying now really..
> bought her a very kitschy christmas tree this morning, white, full of attached adornments, with lights that work on batteries so no plug needed..
> in the hope it will cheer her up when she wakes up in the dark on her couch not knowing what tie of the day or night it is, a reminder of good things and us still being around..
> saturday she gets 85 and we’ll give her a clock that tells the day of the week and date as well, and I am trying to get sheet music together, which she also looks forward to…
>
> she said she would like to stay in her house and go to the home for company every now and then, but I can see it would not work well when she gets worse, as she would not go there and get more and more depressed and lost and confused.
> she needs people around, and we can’t be there enough for her to stay home in a nice way, my brother lives too far and I can’t take my car and go up there as I would do so with normal eyesight.
> so the truth is she would be too much on her own and that is already getting to her now..
> I really think she would do well overall staying there, when she gets used to it, as she is sociable..
> sorry to go on about this so much, it is a big thing for me these days..
> glad I called her boyfriend and told him what would help..
> and glad she had the willpower to get up and make herself go, and was caring enough to let me know..
> still kind of sad though..
> M
Margaret,With your mother sleeping so much it does sound like she’s depressed.I wonder if she sleeps well through the night?It’s great she got cheered up and energized to finally go out today, and thather boyfriend agrees to help.Phil
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:20:11 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Feel for you Margaret, as I went through some of the same things with my mom. She lost her circadian rhythm too, sleeping during the day and night in a chair upright in the front room instead of her bed. She felt it was too lonely in her room.
Her appetite was very poor also because food did not taste as it used to.
One thing that would cheer her up was a short car ride around a small part of town.
I think your calls are very good for her.
It’s funny that sometimes we sang together her favorite songs we would have not done before her decline, so we had a little friendship.
Take care Margaret and keep on writing.
p.s. forgot to say, loved that you got your mom the tree and lights.
S
Speaking of ‘greatest hits’ reminds me of this “Overnight sensation” and that was a hit (I think) bruises on the are ‘not so much’………………..
Thank you all. Reading this blog has had quite an impact. Still digesting. Particularly the memories triggered by the reference to Victoria Hillen, my assigned PI therapist during my intensive back in 1990’s.
Hi John, long time!
I’m curious as to what reference to Victoria you were referring to? Did I miss something?
She was my co-therapist when I started.
How are you doing?
hi Phil,
I was already wondering last week if that was the weekend you were going!
I hope you have a great time there, who knows, maybe there will be some snow again!?
here it is snowing in the higher part of Belgium, the south part, well, not really with mountains but more like hills of a 1000 meter maximum..
happy Thanksgiving to all of you too!!
me and cats
To try to be clear I have read all of Janov’s recent blogs about ‘epi-genetics’ etc. And I think they are mostly quite good. I actually really liked the way he explains how lower or earlier experiences are ‘represented’ at higher levels and form a circuit. Therapy is a ‘simple’;matter of sort of running that cirucit which already exists in reverse. Maybe that sounds ‘easy’ but in effect it is or can be and shows therapy at a totally natural process that also does not actually need ‘therapists’ I think all that is very good but then (to my way of thinking) he goes and ‘ruins it all’ by trying to run again what I call his greatest hits (actually flops) And that ruins any chance he might have with the ‘scientific community’ for the most part. Mind you I will admit I am often very struck by ruined potential including in my own case. So it’s an old feeling? Yes but to me it is ‘valid’ and should not be ‘reduced’ to that. That’s called ‘reductionism’ and is a good short hand to describe the morass actul primal therapy has become…………………in almost every way it did not fulfill it’s ‘potential’……………
> Sylvia, thanks for sharing some of your own experiences, that really helps.
> how long did she stay home and did she have others than you around to help her, and did she go to a nursing home, and how was that process?
> M
Hi again Margaret. My computer is acting a bit stubborn so hope this comes thru. My mom had the dementia for about 7 yrs. beginning with confusion. She could not remember words for things; instead of saying ‘milk’ would say ‘that white stuff’.
I was amazed by the things she became afraid of, but sounds like your mom’s meds are working for her to calm her nerves.
Mom was afraid of things like taking baths so had to be creative there with sponge baths.
My brother would take us to her Dr. appts. and got groceries for us. His wife came over and sat with her a few times when I needed to go out.
Her Dr. advised us strongly to look for a nursing facility because Mom would eventually need more help.
She finally did go to the nursing home when they had a space for her. She was there for 2 months; the last couple of weeks she refused to eat. I think she was adapting to the nursing home letting them help her. She carried around a little stuff toy dog. I liked the ‘home’ because she had medical staff close, and help with whatever she needed. But some of the medication for her delusions had to be very strong, and that affected her appetite. I think she was an unusual patient from that standpoint as most have only mild paranoia. If I had 4 people to help me day and night I guess that would have worked to keep her home but one has to be practical.
Sounds like your mom is very social so think she will enjoy the company of a home.
> Sylvia,
> that sounds pretty hard, like your mom sleeping in the chair for her room being too lonely..
> glad you found a nice home for her to be safe during those last months.
> I feel depressed today, just try to accept it, allow myself to feel sad as I have a tendency to think I should feel differently or do something about it.
> I do that last thing to some degree, forcing myself to do stuff and it helps, a bit, and feels crucial to not allow myself to come to a standstill myself and let it all go sloppy and even more depressing.
> having the kitties around helps, as it implies a regular set of chores and even some cooking, biologically raised chicken breasts, both for them and for me, smiley..
> the fact my mom started objecting again against the idea of going to a home yesterday evening seeems to have had a depressing impact on me..
> M
Hi, Margaret. I’m glad that your kitties are helping you get thru some off-moments. Mom’s moods affected me too, so it was nice when she felt bright and happy.
Speaking of poultry, tomorrow I am cooking a small turkey that has been in the freezer too long (over a year at my brother’s) and giving it a little at a time to the four stray cats who have seen fit to take up residence here. Only one has let me touch her. She is Siamese and I think from the last year litter of the momma cat that spits at me. Yesterday the six month old kitten meowed at me so there’s a chance she may come around too, though the mother warns her not to come close to me. The papa cat comes every few days and always keeps his distance too, but I don’t mind. Have a good day, Margaret.
S
Oooh, Will Graham, I like your post alot…
Well, Jo, back at cha.
I like your post too Will; you are very honest about yourself and caring and giving about another soul. (Good Turkey day to you also, and everyone here today.)
“Will Graham” – I will answer down here as the comment get’s too skinny and it is sort of way up there on the blog. First off thank you, it feels a very generous thing you did for/to me. It touched me really it did and surprised me too and a bit amazed me. Also a feeling of you took a lot of time and thought am I ‘worth’ that? Well you seemed to think so even if it was only a moment maybe still you did. I could really have used more of that as a child and in ‘therapy’ too. In my ‘adult’ life also all the way round just have someone take so much time and trouble………….
It’s funny………..co-incidence or whatever I was at the coffee shop that I go to every morning and meeting with the friend I meet there almost every morning (a guy but nothing gay) and maybe because it was Thanksgiving morning and also it was COLD for a change, or at least what is considered cold in LA. Anyway he drew my attention to the clouds fluffy cirrus if that is the correct words clouds that are very common for example in Ireland but rarely are seen in LA. And we talked about the clouds and I mentioned how as I child I would see all kinds of faces and shapes and watch them change……………….but now I looked at how the sun was sort of coming through the tops of one of the clouds and it had a weird effect like you could see the back of the cloud almost warming it up and lighting it up but only on the back which I could not actually see but sort of ‘imagined’ I could
Walking home I talked a bit more about that and as he left I let that ‘sensation’ fill a bit more. And it was like I am a cloud and a cold cloud or almost a frozen cloud and the rays of the sun are melting me but only on the surface. I am mostly a block of ice numb and mostly unknown even to myself. Even the area being warmed up or even melted is on the back of the cloud it is happening it is mostly outside any awareness or knowing on my part. Like the Pink Floyd song “The Dark Side of the Moon” that is hidden and never seen. The unknown part of me the part I can mostly only imagine. And I sort of think I have a lot to do I have more or less got nowhere I am still pretty much a block of ice.
So it’s like I was more ‘open’; than normally and then I read your post almost with rapt attention……………..there seemed to be some uncanny timing there. I sort of think would I ‘normally’ just dismiss this what you wrote I mean. I might or at least a good part of it or a good part of me would. But this morning ‘no’ it seemed very important not to, if I have a chance to melt that frozen cloud some more I better start listening and taking stuff in. And I felt what you wrote was well WORTH listening and taking in.
So I decide to just ride my bicycle to the movie theater I sometimes go to………….I don’t know what’s on just go there and see. And I ride the bike SLOWLY unlike my normal kind of ‘driven’ style ride really slow and it is still cold and I am just wearing only a shirt and the sun feels delicious on my back but it is still cold. I feel the sun warm and even start to melt the dark side of the ice and it’s a delicious feeling the rivulets of water like tears flowing. I cannot ‘see’ what is going on but I CAN ‘feel’ it – a big message there.I go there and there is a movie called “Brooklyn” playing and it is about this Irish girl to goes to America. I cry off and on throughout the movie and now come home and write this
I didn’t want to be ‘wordy’ about it as I usually am. To be wordy feels like some kind of desecration of what you wrote and I did not want to do that. So thank you again………………I will let it sink in some more but as I say I don’t want to be wordy but I might have more to say tomorrow or in a few days and I will try to still not be too ‘wordy’………..
Maybe to finish on a discordant note (do I need that for some reason?) I didn’t care for Larry calling your post ‘convoluted’. I really didn’t like that because I felt it was far from that. To me Larry has barely concealed ‘judge-mentality’ going on a lot of the time.To me he feels like a harsh religious type of person and primal is his harsh religion. Also when I decided to ‘leave’ for a month even if I did not really follow through all the way on that of all the people here I felt his judgement of me to be the harshest of all. Something along the lines of he wished I would be locked behind some door and they would throw away the key. That’s harsh and punitive but that’s also Larry or some part of him they way I see it. If your post is ‘convoluted’ what are his flat repetitive one dimensional. He gets a lot of props here I don’t see it that way so much at all but now we are back to square one and my ‘problem’ all over again.
This is the trailer of the movie I saw today
> Will,
> a nice comment you wrote there, honest and open and generous.
> for the record, Phil googled Troll for me in the urban dictionary and did post the definition onhere somewhere.
> not what to do with one, that’s true, or maybe I forgot..
> liked your reply too Patrick.
> M
Thank you Margaret. I wonder what the “Will Graham” is all about? There was/is of course the preacher Billy Graham and his \son now I think. There was also Bill Graham a rock promoter type used to put on Grateful Dead shows etc in San Francisco. Otto would probably know about him other than that I am drawing a blank.
Maybe you want to tell us “Will” I guess I do feel slightly uncomfortable now with the pseudonym aspect……………
This probably does not matter and I even hesitate to say but…………..all day I could not shake the feeling of who is “Will Graham” and the thought that kept occurring to me is ‘he’ is some kind of quasi therapist or maybe an actual therapist in disguise. There is something about the tone, the strength and kind of lack of self doubt well that just seems ‘more’ than a ‘patient’ could come up with. Or ever does come up with.
As I say I am not sure it matters at all I am only voicing what comes into my consciousness, if it is or was I really would not mind. I suppose it would be a testimony of caring if someone was to take that trouble to even disguise their identity. Maybe if it is a therapist they feel I am such a toudh nut to crack if I knew it was a therapist my hackles/defences would be already up so maybe the only way through to me is a disguise. Interesting idea maybe my ‘trust’ levels are so low about anyone or anyone I ‘know’ it has to come from a quarter where I do not know. Like I trust what I do NOT know more than what I DO know? That’s possible and if you think about it a pretty desperate place to be. I realize in my ‘academic life’ such as it was (not much) I was sort of drawn always to things that were ‘beyond’ me. It’s like if could not actually understand something that made if more valuable……………..that feels related somehow.
Then I think who is the therapist. There are not so many around Barry is the logical ‘suspect’ it even sounds like him in places but not in others. I would have to say probably not, maybe Nick B somehow beaming me all the way from England. OK I am getting carried away here so “Will Graham” can put it all to rest by coming out and dispelling the mystery. Until he does my ‘suspicions’ are not erased. See what a hopeless case I am now I don’t ‘trust’ all over again for another reason. With me you can’t win LOL!
I don’t go to the movies at all during the Summer but I do in Winter. Anyway I saw quite a good one today called “Room” about a mother and child kidnapped and kept in a room with no contact at all with the outside world. I found it quite moving and also interesting even though it was ‘traumatic’ the child sort of wanted to go back there. It even felt like a lost paradise to him in some ways and he asks him Mom to actually go back there and look. The movie ends there kind of implying he can now leave it behind. All in all I would recommend it. Trailer
Larry, et al, just to clarify–it wasn’t me that started that weird post “Word-Larry”! I was trying to make sense of the sentence, and decided it must be an anagram! ( weirder??)!!
Jo – What’s even weirder now is I looked at the ‘gravatar’ on BOTH the “Will Graham” one and the one you are talking about and they BOTH look the same as mine. (Jack pointed out about one earlier) I want say to very clearly NEITHER of them was written by me unless I sleepwalk and switch on the computer and find this blog etc all while asleep lol……………of course to Inspector Clouseau that might be tantamount to a ‘confession’ remember when Crystal and me were apparently shuttling back and forth to Arkansas switching gravatars to I don’t know achieve exactly what…………………
had a good session yesterday.
> I started off feeling very tense after a phonecall I had made with my mom an hour before.
> I felt confused about what was going on, as I did seem to feel too many things at the time to see clearly to what bothered me most…
> then an important step was to slow down and start with feeling unhappy, which started to open the gates..
> then talking more about things, it finally became clear what hurt most, which was always feeling ‘questioned’ or ‘corrected’ about anything I say or do with my mom, so I realized it made me finally always questioning myself too, and always being on guard for expected criticism to come my way specially from women.
> a lot of the tension dissipated when that connection was made, and tears washed away loads of stresshormone probably at the same time..
> these steps are hard to make by oneself, it takes a good talk with a therapist or buddy to be able to go far enough in the tanled up mess of mixed feelings to unravel them enough to connect one wire at least.
> so I am not so sure this therapy can be done on one’s own, to some degree yes, specially after a good start up in proper therapy, but we do need a person of confidence able to listen in a certain way, a person with which we feel not necessarily entirely trustful, as that might be a feeling on its own that needs to be looked at, but at least trusting to be honest and caring, even if only professionally, and of course much better if also caring in a personal way..
>
> will go off to mom’s birthday in an hour os
> r so, have nice gifts and we bring good food so hopefully it works out well..
> I feel so lucky with Barry and Gretchen as therapists, thanks both of you!
> Margaret
> Larry, how are you doing?
> M
I intend to reply, Margaret. In a few words I’m tired, I’m scared, I’m empty, I’m keeping busy, I’m having fun, I’m alone. The landscape of my life without Noreen or my parents in it feels empty and lonely as retirement draws nearer. I hurt.
Hi Margaret. Hope your mom enjoyed her festivities. So nice to give to someone we care about.
My stray kitties enjoyed their turkey bits. Glad the long weekend is over, tiring with all the cooking and washing up after. Hope you are feeling safer with all the commotion in Brussels alerts.
Onward and upward to the holidays. Take care.
S
Somehow I get the feeling the blog is ‘freaked out’ (2 short messages in 4 days) since I started speculating about “Will Graham”. Anyway and hoping not to add to this but now it feels me though I could of course be wrong that it was Barry. Don’t ask me why I just feel that it is but I want to say this
IF it was Barry I don’t feel bad about it in fact I feel good about it. To me he is being ‘creative’ he took a chance to ‘reach’ me by disguising himself, IF he did i appreciate it I see it as a sincere and honest attempt as I say to ‘reach’ me also something he has no obligation to do something you might say beyond the call of duty And I also want to say he DID reach me in way I have not felt for a long long time. So if people do not hear from me it is because I am ‘working’ on many of the things “Will” pointed out to me and I am ‘busy’ with that…………….so carry on bloggers………….
> hi Sylvia,
> my mom’s birthday was partly spoiled with the fact my sister in law decided to come as well, showing a bad part of her snappy bossy selfcentered self once more..
> that is one positive aspect of my mom’s memory loss, she did not remember it afterwards…
> but she did like the kitchy white xmas tree with the lights on it a lot..
> these past days she has been down, yesterday and the day before I called her several times a day to keep her going and at least eating.
> monday she was suddenly back to not being happy in her house anymore, but also doubting she would be better off in a home.
> it is painful to watch her struggle with items like a new digital clock telling the day of the week and date as well..
> can only try to be there for her, and she does appreciate that..
>
> sounds like your cats have a great Thanksgiving, haha, will cook some chicken for mine today, always party time for them then, they don’t leave the kitchen unless it is to follow me with two plates with minced chicken on it for them..
> it is funny to watch them run back and forth with their tails up in the air, all excited and happy, gives me kind of a family feeling, it is nice to make someone and some pets happy indeed, am smiling right now..
> happy Thanksgiving to all of you, M
Also for Sylvia..
Sylvia, you wrote something a few weeks ago here on the blog about humor & being a class clown that I wanted to respond to outside the blog. Can this be arranged in any possible way? Thanks for letting me know.
Will ask PI
S
Oh, by the way….
Patrick: My first guess on “Will Graham” was the character in the Hannibal Lecter TV Show “Year of the Dragon. He/she did explicitly state Will Graham being a fictional character, so…it cannot possibly be Billy Graham the evangelist. 😀
You may have an FBI profiler on your tail, congratulations.
Correcting my mistake: I suppose the TV show was “Hannibal” and it was based on the book “Year of the Dragon”.
Either way, I stopped watching Hannibal Lecter stuff when the sequel to “Silence of the Lambs” came out in theaters and Hannibal Lecter cut the top of the skull off a guy still living and kept him alive on morphine while dining on a small piece of his brain.
Who the hell came up with that awful stuff? I almost fainted in the theater when I saw that. I left immediately upon seeing that.
The real kicker is that the guy who’s brain was being eaten was conscious during the whole procedure, too. No pain because of the intravenous morphine. I feel lightheaded just typing this out. Man, yeah that’s fainting material for me. I can handle a fair bit of gore if necessary, but that’s beyond my limit. I have to lay down now.
Guru – ‘fictional’ is a word with some ‘wiggle room’ in it……….what if it’s a combination of Billy Graham a preacher and Bill Graham an ‘event promoter’ of big rock concerts. Couldn’t you see Barry almost like that a combination preacher and salesman. I could………..
Don’t encourage any paranoiac tendencies I might have………..anything about the ‘holocaust’ might cause something like you mention doesn’t have to ‘denial’ doubts or simple curiosity just might be enough sad to say. In several European countries just reading a book might do it………………start with WHERE did you get that book? Witch trials or Inquisitions have not actually gone away it seems………………
The silence hear is deafening! What’s going on with everyone? I’m glad it’sFriday. Just have to get through today to enjoy the weekend.Phil
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 21:59:32 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Little or nothing that I find inspiring, or even provoking. But then in my case I con do most of the rest of my therapy on my own.
Jack
Jack,What do you think of the latest mass shooting? Things seem tobe getting worse; it’s pretty discouraging. I don’t worry so much aboutmyself, but I do worry about my kids. They are young and have their wholelives to live.Phil
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 17:13:15 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: There is such a simple solution to this problem, albeit that in implementing it will not be that easy:- Repeal the second amendment of the constitution. and then ban the manufacture of guns and the ammunition used in them
The problem with simple solutions is that ‘head trippers’ hate simple solutions, since it deprives them of what they feel is their great asset. their thinking brain. It’s a feeling condition not a intellectual one.
I’ve written in reply to most emails I get on the matter, more times than I can remember, but like most of my ideas, it goes unheeded with the belief that I’m crazy (which I am), but no more crazy than the rest of us. Just more radical in my thinking, (another foible).
About, your children; sad. I don’t have any; one of the advantages of being gay. There are not many, but that is one of them.
Hope that answers your question
Jack
Jack,I agree with your solution on guns. The constitution clearly should beupdated and guns shouldn’t be sold to the public.As I’m sure you well know, those ideas have little or no chance of happeningbecause of the political divisions in the US. What also would have to changeis how candidates are financed and that might open up more possibilities.But the fact is that there are a large number of people who like their guns anddon’t want them taken away. These people are represented by the republican party.I read recently that some republicans have a proposal to upgrade our mentalhealth system, which is a very good idea as the system is very poor The trouble is, democrats won’t agree because the gun issue is not addressed. Phil
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 18:06:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: Yes, I totally agree, but there is some movement on this matter, since I understand that Australia has banned guns. I don’t see that Australia has these kinds of incidents. It would be interesting to here from Tom V on this matter.
The other factor is in looking at why, psychologically, the second amendment was created in the first place. My feeling is that it was a meant to prevent the Native Americans coming back with their bows and arrows to re-take their land. Of course, they did did not admit that, but why else the ‘second amendment’? The only other possibility would be the British to come back to take away the independence, but that is a very unlikely idea. Either way, it seems that it is now an idea that has backfired to haunt America. They’re STUCK!!!!!
Jack
Jack,The Obama care law passed when the democrats controlled congress,but that is not the case now. If the democrats were to regain congressthen action on guns might be possible but there is still that problemwith the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. That is a huge obstacle becausean amendment needs two thirds support in both houses of congress andthree quarters of the states have to approve. Our political system is set up so that states with a small population holdtoo much power. This happened, I think, as a compromise due tothe slavery issue, among other things. We have gridlock on so many issues,as a result. Phil Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 19:40:46 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Jack,Good ideas are ones that have some chance of happening.Abolishing guns in this way would be nice but because closeto impossible to achieve, quite impractical. Some different approach to the problem is necessary. The same with abolishing money as a solution to world problems.Since that won’t be happening, other ideas are needed.Phil
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 18:06:40 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: the trouble with the “Other Ideas”, they don’t work either.
We keep going with this neurotic “Merry-Go-Round” It’s just that no-one want to THINK with any real conceptual hard thinking. Simple thinking is easier to do, and part and parcel (if one really thinks about it), the way we got programmed in very early baby-hood..
That’s perhaps the hardest concept … unles you’ve had a RE-LIVING of what and how it felt like as the baby. Not just the memory, but going back … being that baby AGAIN. A real Primal.
Jack
Jack, Relivings are powerful but we need the whole world to experiencethem to solve our problems.Phil Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 19:53:10 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: My experience with member of my family; is that they almost had a reliving experience, but thwarted it since it was way too scary. There are other historical examples of having the same experience, but on their reflections afterwards, turn it into an understandable notion from what they already know. The greatest examples I can think of is Saul of Taurus on the road to Damascus and Thomas Aquino, both turned it into a religious concept, as did my brother.
Had they known (cognitively) that they were about to regain their own history and brought into consciousness (rather than floating around in the ‘subconscious’) they might have just let it happen. BUT our notions of what (supposedly) ‘IS’; prevents just this. Hence we are left with fantasies about some creature, living in the sky looking after us. Seemingly, that is not so, for if such a creature did exist: why all the mayhem??? That question brings up more fantasies of such things as “free will”. Never, never thinking about just why or what is “Fee Will”. It’s the never ending “neurotic Merry-Go-Round”
To repeat my feeling about the abolition of that, that keeps us stuck (money and all forms of exchange). Should hierarchy fizzle and become redundant, many others (without the need of a therapist) might … just might; have a reliving experience and start on a journey to bringing their/our history back into consciousness. According to Janov, and I agree, that is what our bodies are trying for a life-time to do. I contend from there-on-in, things (by mere insights) would resolve 95% of all our ills … including that babies need an inordinate amount of love and care for their needs.. It’s a stretch I know, but worth the effort to spend time to contemplate. It would bring us back to our NATURE rather than keeping us stuck in our BEHAVIORS.
Jack
The lifetime odds of dying in the US from assault by a firearm is 1 in 325, surprisingly high in my opinion, but not as high as the odds of dying in a car accident, 1 in 100, or from heart disease or cancer, 1 in 5 and 1 in 7, or from falling down, 1 in 246. Putting it in the perspective of the odds of it happening, it seems we should be more fearful of falling down, car accidents, cancer and heart disease.
http://www.livescience.com/3780-odds-dying.html
Larry,
What is frustrating is that something can and should be done about guns.
Measures are taken to make cars and driving safer and research and advances
have occurred for diseases like heart disease and cancer, but very little about
something preventable like shootings.
What is also disturbing is that drug overdoses have now surpassed fatalities due to
other injuries, including car accidents, in the US. Prescription drug abuse became
a large problem and when more attention and control was given to that problem,
heroin use has again become rampant. Of course, this is a self inflicted problem.
I don’t know if Canada is experiencing a similar problem with drugs.
Phil
Larry, I do also worry about my sons having a car accident. Only one of them has a car to drive right now, and the other is mostly using a bicycle for his transportation needs, but that could be dangerous as well.
The recent shooting in California is a current event and has again stimulated debate on the issue, some of which I have been following.
Phil
Phil, there are gun and drug problems in Canada, but as yet not as bad as in the US. I think at the heart of the problem is inequality, in which the US leads the way. I believe it boils down to an attitude of every man for himself and trust on one, vs sense of responsibility to community.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level:_Why_More_Equal_Societies_Almost_Always_Do_Better
Larry, I think you are right about inequality. In the current presidential race getting underway here, Bernie Saunders has made that the focus of his campaign. I’m very glad that he’s bringing that issue to the forefront, but he doesn’t seem to have much of a chance of winning.
That book looks very interesting, is it one you’ve read? I’ve seen information showing how even basic survival rates are effected by inequality. Statistically, wealthier people live longer, maybe because of things like better health care, more support, and less stress.
They can spend more money for drug abuse treatment not covered by insurance.
They can live in safer communities with better schools. They have better connections to give their children a start in their careers etc.
How are you doing today?
Phil
> Guru,
> the brain feels no pain, also certain brain surgeries are done with conscious patients, as they need to say or do certain stuff to check which area is being touched or affected with a small electrode.
> this sometimes to cure severe cases of epilepsy for example, or to diminish effects of Parkinson.
> stimulating a certain brain area even gives an effect like an outer body experience, but more recently it is supposed that area helps us to imagine the perspective a third person has on the world..
> it is pretty horrible indeed, I saw the movie back then and the guy starts giggling and saying crazy stuff at first, but well, then deteriorates probably, I don’t remember more details, they leave it to our imagination then..
> not so different really than the first brain ‘srugery’ and lobotomies, there was a tool kit in the early days including a sort of ice pick…
> also I just learned at some point in our history, not so long ago, babies were supposed not to feel pain, and were operated on without any anestesia..
> sorry, I am probably spoiling what was left of your appetite..
> M
Margaret, It seems a terrible and ridiculous assumption that people made aboutbabies not feeling pain. Phil Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 18:52:37 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Margaret:
You’re right about the brain not feeling pain. I am a bit better now, but still cringing. I probably shouldn’t have typed out all those gratuitous, gory details. I will keep a lid on it (both in terms of skull and verbal description). It was also “over the top” both in terms of location on the head and gore level.
Just horrible to think about for me. My whole self felt like a giant blood vessel being tightly squeezed and constricted with that description and I just wanted to faint.
I’m amazed Anthony Hopkins was willing to do a scene like that. I feel like I am being physically assaulted and squeezed by an imaginary python just thinking about it.
Guru: Quote: “My whole self felt like a giant blood vessel being tightly squeezed”
Another quote:- “I feel like I am being physically assaulted and squeezed by an imaginary python ”
Just wondering …. Is there an old feeling lurking in there????
Jack
I feel horrible. I didn’t want to post on this blog tonite, but cant help it. horrifically horrible. nothing good in sight. owwwwch. guess i shouldnt listen to music that reminds me of being in a bassinette, motherless and forsaken.
Sounds like you need a friend to just go have a cup of de-caf or a juice-bar drink with. Slurp, slurp; how’s that.
S.
I ache for someone to touch and hold, and for someone to touch and hold me. I yearn for someone to want and need, and for someone to want and need me. I hunger for someone to trust and love, and for someone to trust and love me. I am sick of being alone.
To-day I thought I saw a seagull
But it turned out to be a drone
I thought I saw a fish
But it turned out to be an oil slick
I dreamed I saw a flock of pelicans
But it turned out to be just that
A dream.
In connection with the above kind of but the very opposite feeling I have been listening to Donavan a lot today and some of his songs are so beautiful but also feel very much like a lost paradise. Gone and maybe never to come back
I remember when I was young that the older generation was always inclined to wish for the old days … as if the present was in for “a paradise lost”
.
I personally try to avoid that, since it seems that I now am one of the oldies. I’d rather relish my youth for the good and try not to dwell on all the disadvantages.
Seems Patrick you are beginning to feel you age.
Granted there are some horrors taking place, but wasn’t that always so???
\Jack
“Like a dog without a bone, an actor out on loan”
Riders on the Storm
Like as always … you never answer the question, but weave your way around it to make yourself sound good and me to look bad. I am bad, but I don’t see your quip “Like a dog without a bone, an actor out on loan Riders on the Storm” as making you seem good
It’s commonly known, (I contend [that dirty word again]) as being defensive. the point , as I see it, in Primal Therapy to get beyond being defensive as that is the unhealthiness.
If indeed in aging you are getting into the nostalgia of the past. Just admit it … it won’t kill you. It’s just that I personally don’t see the past as being that wonderful. There wee more mass killings during WWII and a massive killing with two atom bombs on Japan at the end of it. Pop music for me was dreary with Frank Sinatra being the top of it all, until the infusion of Rock & Roll and the Beatles, Rolling Stones and a few other that enjoyed and found very stimulating, but that was me, I feel since that time, pop music never regained the excitement of that time. BUT it was not all good. Youth held a lot of uncertainties for me. Few computers, and emails, no cell phones for easy and quick communication and some others. The fashion in dress at the time was terrible etc. etc. I cannot speak for anyone else.
However, all in all for me I did enjoy my life and have few regrets. All that remains, is to enjoy the rest of it as best I can.
The greatest thing for me was to discover Primal Therapy. I just wished it had been discovered and the therapy created earlier in my life. But so-be-it. At least I finally got it and for me it was a BIG BIG deal.
Jack
Or this one a gorgeous song (and video too) Some words from it. Otto do you like Donavan or is he too much of a hippy dippy trippy kind of guy. I used to think so but now I find him more agreeable that even Bob Dylan at least at times. This song is a bit similar to “Times they are a Changing” but mellower
When rain has hung the leaves with tears
I want you near to kill my fears
To help me to leave all my blues behind
For standing in your heart
Is where I want to be and long to be
Ah, but I may as well try and catch the wind
Last one sorry to be so self indulgent. Anyway that is a great song “Times they are a Changing” and so modern it sounds like an alarm about global warming. Like a Biblical prophet predicting doom (if we don’t change out ways – which we probably won’t)
I have a continuous situation going on with a friend who I’ve known for 2 years or so. He’s an interesting guy who I enjoy talking to but has a lot of problems. He has an interest in doing primal therapy and that’s why we first met. He has big issues with anxiety and other things to the point that he can’t function and is on disability. Sometimes he claims to be unable to leave his house to buy food. I have noticed when necessary, however, he’s quite competent and able to get things done. So there is a certain amount of acting out being helpless, I believe.
He has put himself in mental hospitals and has been in and out of these places quite a few times since I have known him. It’s a long story but to sum it up, nothing seems to help. Medications don’t do much and the meager amount of counseling he can get doesn’t help. I probably never should have gotten started with him. I live 60 miles away and he begs me to visit. Having people around who he feels safe with seems to be the only thing that helps a little. We talk by phone by I don’t like being coerced into a visit when I’m busy and there is little in it for me. He can be extremely demanding about people doing things for him. I often don’t answer his phone calls. Years ago he did do some primal therapy, with probably an unqualified therapist, and it didn’t work. He has been told many times that he’s not a good candidate for the therapy but still is stuck on the idea of getting help at the Primal Center.
I have gotten insights into why I’d be drawn into such a situation, and I do think I’m managing it better than I was a while ago. I had a mother who was very sick, helpless, and depressed. My father was depressed and didn’t tend to do things for himself.
A brother who was mentally ill. Last night I connected to some scenes where the angry feeling I had in regard to my mother was “I can”t help you”! Also, “don’t bring me here”, in relation to visiting her in a nursing home. I was stuck having to go there and it was terrible.
This guy I know is not at all the kind of friend I need.
Phil
Hey, Phil. Some friends are not really that. In the end you have to look out for yourself. It sounds like this person really needs some outside interests, maybe something online, a hobby or even watching movies. That demanding part seems like a red flag. I think you are wise to give it second thoughts.
I know what you mean about mom’s needing so much. I dealt with that too growing up. It makes helpers out of us. I’m glad I can turn it into helping myself.
Sylvia, Unfortunately, I’ve become a primary support for him mainly over the phone. Distractions don’t work. Even today he is being demanding and is out of control. I will have to cut off any communication, at least for today.
Phil
At the moment, I’m feeling very angry and frustrated because of this. I thought because the weekend is over I could talk to him since he should realize there is no chance at all that I would visit. But actually we just spoke and he was so demanding and coercive as ever, wanting me to go there tonight. Not wanting to do anything himself; stuck on people doing things for him. It is also a very sad situation. He will be back in the hospital soon and trying to avoid shock treatment or other things they recommend. Not at all good that I am involved.
Phil
Sounds like you understand and know what you need to do.
Larry,It isn’t that easy since I’m not OK with just dumping him. It is sadas he’s in a downward spiral that’s been going on a long time.There is really nothing I can do to stop that.Phil Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 02:17:01 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
I find that the road to our own primal health is never easy Phil.
> phil,
> good you write about it here, and good to hear you are making useful connections.
>
> I am preparing another exam in a few days so not much spare energy to write much here lately.
> mom going up and down, and me as well, but overall better able to cope with her and deal with it if possibly in a more lighthearted way.
> feel very lucky to be with my brother on the same wavelength more or less, it helps us to stay in touch with the relatively funny side of things, which helps to process the pain and sadness too and to feel connected.
> it also helps to deal with mom and her issues.
> M
I feel for you in that situation with your friend Phil… Your last line of ” there really is nothing I can do to stop that” is so true. One thing to say it, and quite another to actually believe it wholeheartedly though sometimes, huh. Some people do use people, systems etc. because of their own damage – as you well know.
I think a caring friend wants to be sure you are getting what you need too – such as time to relax and time with your family etc.
I had a demanding friend once who worked out everything I should do to be her friend. It took a while to untangle myself but I am much happier with friendships that flow with natural waves of both giving and taking.
I think too, how hard it must have been for you as a young child with all the critical medical/emotional problems surrounding you – when it truly must have been so confusing & confining – as to what to do!
L.
> Phil, I agree with Leslie.
> this must be extra harrd for you triggering a lot of old stuff as well. it would already be a difficult position to be in without that..
>
> so I do hope you can process some of the old stuff little by little to hopefully feel more able to assess what you can and want to do with the present situation.
> I relate to what you feel and like you very much for being a truely caring and kind person.
> he will turn to professional caretakers as he did so before, or go to the shop himself.
> call me any time you feel the need for a talk.
> M
The latest on this is I am not planning to take any phone calls from my friend today and maybe not for some days. Our conversation yesterday was terrible; he was so demanding and manipulative. The thing is,. on Saturday I offered the alternative of him taking a train towards where I live and I’d pick him up at the station so we could talk in person, which is what he so badly wants. This is his way of making it through the day because otherwise it seems like he’s in extreme abandonment feelings. But he said he couldn’t leave his apartment as it’s too “disorienting”. Instead, I was supposed to drive 60 miles to where he is. What I see is that my going there represents “help”. If he has to leave his house, that is helping himself which he doesn’t want to do.
In past months he has claimed he couldn’t go out to get food and his request was could I go there so he could go out and get food. I noticed when I refused, he did go out rather than starve.
All of this does get to me and it relates to people in my history and what I needed from them.
But I don’t need anything from this guy and I never should have gotten caught up in this.
Phil
The other thing is I recognize and relate to a lot of the symptoms my friend talks about. A lot of them I have experienced myself but not so severely. I don’t think I was ever so manipulative and demanding, at least not outwardly. I see the big feelings he’s in but it’s too much for him to connect with to get relief. Maybe an inpatient primal facility would work but such a thing doesn’t exist.
Phil
Phil, when your “friend” says he ‘couldn’t leave his apartment as it’s too “disorienting”’, I relate to simply being too afraid (of something happening, unspecified). Knowing I have to do whatever-it-is, sometimes I just rest a bit longer, until I feel better, or work up my courage, or whatever I have to do to get going, but not try to twist others. You might suggest he “rest until he feels better and can do it”, but that you can’t drive there to help him with it — if you are in that kind of conversation with him again.
Vicki,I’ll try that when it happens again. On Saturday when he was demanding I visit him, and itwas possible, I basically had to hang up the phone onhim. Then he was calling and calling me. The thing is, he may be afraidand reluctant, but when motivated he does go out and do things.If I would have gone down there Saturday I would have really feltmanipulated, and taken advantage of, and helping with his act out. He could have takenup my offer on Sunday as well. But thanks for your suggestion.Phil Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:52:27 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Vicki, Actually, what you said here has me aggravated. My friend (I’ll call him x) has terrible problems. I am doing the best I can. I don’t think I can do any more. I am one of the very few people who will even listen to him. That isn’t enough, of course. Nothing is enough. If I would have seen him last Saturday it would have been a six or eight hour buddy session with me listening. I don’t doubt about x’s symptoms. I can relate to a lot of them. He lives alone and has nothing to do all day. I keep telling him you have to have something to do, even a volunteer job of some kind.
When x is in the hospital, or recently, a temporary day program, he does seem to get a little relief. There are people around who are trying to help, and that might be the only reason he feels a little better. None of the therapy or medications they offer seem to have any lasting positive effect. The mental health system is very poor.
I don’t doubt about his symptoms but besides that he makes enormous efforts to get people to do things for him, but does almost nothing for himself. X’s family want nothing to do with him and won’t take him in. He is afraid he’ll be put permanently in a state hospital or given shock treatments. I have been getting a glimpse of hell during the time I’ve known him, it’s really bad. X may very well end up permanently in a hospital, a group home, given shock treatments, or killing himself, and these are all things he is desperately trying to avoid. I am afraid that one of these will be the outcome, especially
since he is not taking care of himself. I have expressed many of these things to him, while at the same time trying to keep it hopeful. And also about my own limitations and patience. I’m not his therapist or parent and I have my own life and family. I can’t take all the demands etc etc. I’m glad that this is a place I can complain about all of this.
Phil
I thought to add this detail to this story. When my friend x is stuck in his apartment saying he can’t go out, even to get food, he has called me begging that I go over to help him go out. Even though that is a 60 mile drive for me.
He doesn’t take no for an answer on this. But when I suggest ordering food to be delivered, pizza or Chinese food for example, he says he won’t be able to face anyone at his door. I even offer to make the call to order the food. This is what I mean about the act out. It’s about getting someone to rescue him. the pizza or Chinese food delivery guys won’t do, it has to be someone he knows. I haven’t given in to these kinds of demands but visiting x for some other reason resulted in us going out for food, and it then seemed that was the actual goal. I ended up feeling manipulated and used.
At other times he is quite able to go out shopping for food. X is actually a smart and capable guy.
I am finding it helpful to try to explain and describe all of this in a way that makes it understandable.
I hope there is some solution to x’s problem, but I don’t know what it will be. I plan to keep him as a friend but manage the situation. That is all I can think of to do.
Phil
Hasta La Vista Cody. Another dog I have had to put to sleep within the last 6 months. 2 days before I become 64. Life has definitely been bad to me so far. Or at least Life disagrees with me about Death being necessary. Oh well. A cat with cancer sleeping in the bathroom. Great. I am not feeling much of anything. Now I go lie to the dietician about how much I ate at my pre-birthday dinner at the Brazilian steakhouse. I lost 6 pounds and got my blood sugar down with drugs, but I am sure the 6 pounds will show up on her scale today. I start to see BB again next week, not sure how that will go or for how long I can afford to go.
Patrick, if you are talking about Donovan Sunshine Superman, I liked his songs ok, but much of the lyrics made me think he had no trouble in getting women, which always bothers me, since I rarely could. I know successful and even unsuccessful musicians have no trouble getting women, but one of his lyrics must have bothered me more than some of the other musicians. I am not a big fan of Dylan, not sure why, maybe he pretends to be from Minnesota, but I bet he is hoarding soap under his mattress, at least from what Joan Baez had to say about him being the unwashed phenom.cant spell it. Even with spell check. I did hear Times they are a changing on the radio yesterday. Times they are a changing, but never for the better. Life is a horror for much of the living.
Otto – if you liked musicians or not on the basis of their ‘success’ with women like you say I don’t think there would be that many to like.I don’t think Gerry Garcia or Duane Allman or any of those guys you like had a problem there……….
per wikipedia, he is scottish. I would have thought Donovan was an Irish name. I think i might have already mocked the Scottish for their hoarding, maybe not. My ex-boss had a scottish name, and had great difficulty in handing out overtime to all of us at work.
Yes Scottish people have this reputation of being ‘cheap’ which I never did understand. But there was probably something to it. Being closely related to the Irish I could not see it I mean being ‘cheap’ is one of the last things I would associate with the Irish. Of course the Scots were more dominated and integrated in the British Empire etc who have been called by several as a ‘nation of shopkeepers’.And that I do see. Where everything is counted and everything has a value or at least a price.Wasn’t it Oscar Wilde an Irishman who said basically about the English “they know the price of everything and the value of nothing” Maybe then needed to ‘abolish money’ but all that has to wait for a “Great Thinker” to come along at a later time lol……….
> Phil,
> I relate to how hard it is to care about someone and to try to help and to give good advice but mostly in vain..
> it is a painful situation to be in as you don’t want to give up but are left frustrated a lot of the time.
>
> it is similar with my mom now, a mix of old and present stuff..
> today after four days of trying to encourage her she did go to the nursing home with her new sheet music, but sadly enough the room with the piano was occupied for some activity, so she could only go to the cafetaria for a while.
>
> i hope you find some ways in which you can support your friend without allowing him to manipulate you, not easy so to hear, but on the other hand he is lucky to have someone in his life that cares enough to listen to him occasionally and even give him a hand now and then.
> it sounds good you set boundaries.
> it must trigger old stuff for you, doesn’t it?
>
> I find it sometimes hard to unravel what I feel, but usually it unravels itself eventually..
> hope my exam tomorrow goes well, that is always a good feeling..
> cats are well and thriving, had a nice plate of fresh chicken today, and were in a party mood all day long, haha!
> they brighten up my life big time, with their own happiness and the affection they give and enjoy receiving.
> and they make me smile!
> M
Margaret,
This situation with my friend does trigger feelings. Anger when he is so demanding and manipulative. That led to a few days ago to feelings about my mother who was so sick and depressed, I mentioned about it in an earlier post. I said in my feeling (but not at the time) “I can’t help you”, and connected strongly with that., a feeling that also comes up in relation to my father. Both of them, especially my mother, needed a lot of help. A new aspect to some childhood scenes I continually revisit.
Good luck on your exam tomorrow. Lucky cats you got!
Phil
I got some voice mail and text messages from X. Same shit, he is alone in his apartment and needs help, he’s stuck, he hasn’t gone out in days, he wants me to go there and help him. It’s like he’s sitting around waiting.
I will have to greatly limit (or maybe eliminate) contact with him. I’ve had some insights too, it’s about not being treated as a person; and in that way, similar to what I remember from my mother, There was nothing good coming from her; just punishments, neglect, being ignored etc.
It’s probably why I find myself in this type relationship.
Sorry to go on and on about this but I am finding it helpful to write about it here.
Phil
I’m glad you are writing about it here, Phil, if it helps you. I think witnessing how you progress through handling the situation with him helps us all.
> Phil,
> I hope you keep writing! as much as you feel like!
> M
Margaret,
I sent a message telling X I wouldn’t see him until after the holidays, if then. That way he can get the possibility out of his head. He has been desperate to get me to visit.
I got a message back that I’m turning my back to him and how that’s not the holiday spirit etc He says he’s starving for human contact (he’s living in the middle of a city full of people but won’t leave his apartment).
When I got home from work yesterday I connected with the old feelings I was talking about. A new one came up. It is about not having any parents to guide me; like from older childhood through adulthood. My father was still living until I was 32, but he had been helpless, depressed, and without a life, needing my help. I don’t know that I can truly identify any time that I fully got what I needed from my parents.
Phil
To give a fuller picture on this, I only very rarely have met up with X. What we have done more often is talk by phone. I last visited him in early November and he wasn’t so demanding at that time. Before that it might have been early summer when I saw him.
I helped him move his stuff to the apartment where he is now.
So his expectations are not at all realistic. Now, I don’t plan to answer any of his calls. He’s like a helpless crying infant demanding attention. I’m afraid he will put himself back in a hospital within in a week or two. Someone visiting him could only prevent that for the particular day of the visit. The very next day he is desperate for more. It is a sad situation.
Phil
> as usual I am not sure about my chances of having passed the exam.. hopefully once more it is ok, there were questions I felt sure about, but also confusing ones, which I had to gamble or guess a bit about..
> ordered the next course, neuropsychology and pharmacology, feel more interested in that really, at least I hope it will be an interesting course..
> not an easy one I guess..
> feel both tired and wired up, could use some company now, but girlfriend is busy..
> and do not want to call mom, last time I mentioned doing exam of developmental psychology she once more had her opinion, saying ‘isn’t it all a bit exaggerated? can you have your own view?’
> that last bit she added noticing my reaction on the first bit was not very positive, just an ‘hmm’, but she does know me a bit nevertheless…
> so I do not feel like callling her as it won’t make me feel supported or encouraged, although she things that is what she does..
> i seem to have more problems with being on my own too often lately, seem to be needing company in a more conscious way.. hopefully I find some kin soul in the weekly gym in january, my social life needs a boost..
> saturday I go to a concert from my singing class, and next wednesday to a tango dance, so luckily some socializing coming up.
> feel pretty sure as it comes nearer feelings of fear will also rise and make me hesitate about going, but will go anyway!
> now off to reading and watching my favourite Flemish soap, it is funny but yesterday one of the characters had to do an exam of developmental psychology and she was complaining about it being such a big textbook, haha, serendipity, isn’t that the word, or no, something else, having to do with time and space crossings, my brain feeels too fried now to give it some true thought..
> chatting too much here, I know, or well, a lot, is a symptom of unmet need for communication right now..
> so bye, for now.. M
Margaret,
My younger son is taking his last final exams today, it’s the end of his first semester at our local community college. We have hardly noticed him studying this fall but he did stay up most of the night writing papers a few times. I hope he passes, but we have doubts.
In your case, I feel confident that you did well on the exam and now deserve a good break. That’s great that you have some social engagements coming up.
Phil
> well, thanks Phil, but so far for the break, as just now I took my laptop and put a novel to read aside, as I feel more like looking at the summary of my next course, well, summary, 85 pages or something, and another file like that about the extras..
> I do hope your youngest son passes and starts getting the taste of it, and finds a direction that interests him..
> I help you hoping, how long before he gets his results?
> M
I have to ask him about when the results will be back. I mentioned about registering for the next semester and didn’t get much of a response. His main interests are skateboarding, music, and hanging out with his friends. He is not being inspired by any areas of study, but today I suggested about finding something that will lead to a good job, even if uninspiring, so he can have money and pursue his interests in his free time.
Phil
I have cut off communications with X because he won’t stop with his demands.
Today I got a voicemail from his friend in Italy. She requested on his behalf that
I go to visit him and have dinner this weekend. She and X have a very strange relationship,
but that’s not the issue. X won’t leave me alone or take no for an answer.
I can’t believe it! I think I am finished with him for good. I just can’t take it.
Phil
Phil, sorry if this is old news to you, but when he complained that “you’re turning your back to him and how that’s not the holiday spirit etc” have you already told him he is insulting you and not respecting you at all, when you told him you can’t come there, and he refuses to accept it? That he’s acting like you “owe” him something, but in fact he’s not a child and you’re not his parent. And when he says he’s starving for human contact, have you told him you know he feels that way, but he will simply have to find a way to move past his fear, and find human contact locally, like a crisis hotline. I am just suggesting these things, because if you have done/said them, then there is nothing else you can do, except cut off contact from someone who is refusing to hear you.
Vicki,
I have told him these things, and you are right, that I will have to cut off contact from him.
Thanks for your comments.
Phil
Even though she was old and frail and we all knew her end was near, after Mom’s death in early November, for me grief surged bigger and more relentless than I thought it would. My life keeps eroding. Noreen is gone. My parents are gone. I am an orphan. My boss retired a few months ago. My work as I’ve known it may go on for another year, not more. One of the fellows I’ve worked alongside for 20 years will retire in April. Everything I’ve known and built my life around and upon is fading, collapsing. My youth and peak health are in my past. Through November I’d come home from work and succumb to episodes of crying.
My ballroom dance class ends in November, takes a break through December, and resumes in January. There is a big formal dinner and ball at the end of November. I had to go to it, to try to fill my life with something positive and fun, to hopefully have what would become a happy memory instead of only sadness and aloneness. The Saturday of the dance I was anxious, full of doubt, searching for excuses not to go as I always do, but by now I know the best strategy is to go ahead despite my doubt because it’s the only way something positive might happen.
I sat at a table with some of my classmates. The dinner was great. The dancing was so much fun. Later I counted and noted that I danced with 8 different women, some several times, ranging in age from mid 20’s to 80. The evening went by fast. I stayed until midnight, on the dance floor most of the time. It is so good for my confidence about life to have that positive experience behind me, overshadowing the pain of loss.
As well as the formal dances, the Club holds one casual dance a month, year round. I went to one a year ago and never again because the experience of going alone was too painful for me.
There is a lady in my class close to my age who doesn’t have a partner, who loves to dance but won’t go to the dances alone. We exchanged phone numbers and agreed to be dance partners and go to the monthly dance together.
Last Saturday was the December monthly dance. I slept poorly Friday night, woke up Saturday morning feeling weak, listless, uninterested in dance. I felt the evening was headed for disaster. I wanted to phone her up to cancel. But I knew that for my life to get better I had to work through my apprehensions, follow through on what I knew I had to do, risk that the evening might turn out well and be happily memorable. Full of trepidation I drove to her place at 6:30 pm, picked her up and drove to the dance at 7. By the time we got there I was already feeling better. Soon I was feeling at home with her, on the dance floor, and with the people around me. It was a fun evening and I’m so glad for the happy memory rather than one of being glum and alone at home.
She and I talked about more dance outings together. We’ve quickly become comfortable with each other as dance partners at social dance outings. It feels remarkable that this is happening to me, and that I can now see a prospect for social fun in my life and not just sadness and aloneness. Together as dance partners she and I have opened a door for ourselves to fun social dance with nice people. It feels real good to have positive happy experiences. It is really good for my confidence in life, a needed balance against the sadness and loss I am experiencing and feeling.
It is good, important progress if I want to have a healthy happy life, but tonight the progress brings up sadness. The progress is happening because I need it to, because I am finding the courage to make it happen, because I don’t have much otherwise. That the progress is happening means my life is changing, and it’s happening without the pillars who were so important to me, Noreen and my parents. It hurts that they will never experience this and the rest of my life with me, ever. It hurts that they are now forever in the past.
Perseverance and practice makes perfect, Larry!! Right? 😊
You would know, tennis lady, 🙂
> Larry,
> thanks for your comment.
> it is very welcome, as tomorrow I should go dancing and as usually when it comes nearer apprehension sets in as you so eloquently described.
> will keep your comment in mind and try not to come up with excuses not to go..
> feel pretty overwhelmed at the moment with things to do, problems to solve of all kinds..
> should go dancing, did not go to the concert last saturday, should go tomorrow in any case!
> M
I hope you go Margaret, and tell us how it went. If you don’t go, it is understandable but hopefully eventually you will.
> have just read ‘orange is the new black’ from Piper Kerman.
> she was emprisoned for something she did ten years earlier, stayed in jail for 15 months, and wrote a book about it, very nice to read.
> she mentioned in the end that although the U.S. only has 5 percent of the world population, they imprison these years over 25 percent .in the eighties there were only 500 0000 prisoners, now over 2.300 0000 …
> a lot of women, who never used violence
>
> a fine book about simple human kindness.
> M .
Larry, That dancing sounds like fun and a great way to meet people.
Phil
The dancing is also an excellent way to stir up my deep insecurities Phil. It’s taken me ten years of battering away at lessons and anxieties, and lots of doubt and crying and wanting to run away, but gradually getting more confident and having more fun as I patiently persistently work through what holds me back.
Larry, Dancing has never really been my thing. I usually feel very self conscious and wooden with any kind of dancing, so it would be something to avoid. But, in the last year I went out with my wife a few times for some Latin dancing and had some better experiences, even though neither of us know those dances.
Phil
I’ve been working on my son’s Christmas list. It’s very extensive and well researched; unlike some of his college work.. We found out he forgot to take some online quizzes for one class and is concerned about passing that class.
Anyway, among other things are three books, “The Psychedelic Experience” by Thomas Leary, “The Doors to Perception” by Aldous Huxley, and “The Stranger” by Albert Camus which give some clues as to what he’s interested in studying. He rarely expresses much interest in books, so I am glad some are on the list. There are other books; works of fiction and also comic books.
His interest in psychedelic experiences has me a bit worried though and I plan to discuss it with him. He already has a pot smoking habit which I’m not that happy about.
Phil
That book “The Psychedelic Experience”; I meant Timothy Leary, not Thomas. My son said all his classes “sucked real bad”, so I’m just hoping he can find something of interest. Seeing his literary interests maybe he should think of psychology.
Phil
Phil, He ” forgot ” to take the quizzes ! Love it ! 🙂 Gretch
The “influence” of the “Doors of Perception” and even more so “The Psychedelic Expedience” will do that to a person lol.
The band “The Doors” was named after Huxley’s book supposedly.The same Doors who wrote “:Like a dog without a bone, an actor out on loan” which is a pretty cool line imho.
Patrick, my son likes the Doors, has most of their music, and read Jim Morrison’s biography “No One Here Gets Out Alive”, a very sad story I also read. Maybe that accounts for his interest in those books on his Christmas list. Still a concern; Morrison was talented but not someone good to try to emulate. Phil Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 00:51:53 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil – it sometimes amazes me the ‘draw’ of the music of that time has even on youngsters today. I suppose it was a sort of magical time in history maybe the ;’last’ one……………the way things are going. The last gasp of ‘freedom’ sort of. I think for young people now it is a dreary time to be growing up in, no hope much of a good future, all they are offered is ‘fear’ and ‘fear itself’. Gone are the days when fear is the only thing to fear now we ‘fear’ mostly everything it seems. Yesterday in LA the closed all the schools because of one email from Germany supposedly. I mean are we that fragile as a society where one random email of phone call can shut everything down. For all the strong talk about ‘not letting the terrorists win’ it seems they have. Anyway sorry to turn it into something general Phil but I think it is very tough and hopeless for youngsters to day so your son like everyone one else has that to deal with and who knows what else.
Speaking about the “Politics of Expierence” Leary’s book I have a memory around that. At about 18 went to the local town with my Dad around the time we effectively ‘stopped talking’ which was so sad for me as a young child many times I felt I loved my Dad so much…………….anyway it was sad but it was me who ‘stopped talking’ also……………anyway we were there around the town and he was doing his things going to the bank (that I always associated with him) I dunno other stuff he was doing. I told him I would mooch around in a book store and I did and ended up buying THAT book Leary’s book. The cover was a very colorful drawing in full ‘psychedelic’ mode and glory……….I remember my Dad looked at the book and it’s like there was this huge chasm between us now, me and him. He KNEW I was drifting off in some strange new and probably ‘bad’ directions. Also I somehow wanted to give him a message but could not say had really ‘stopped talking’
And also I remember my Mom asking me the next day if I had a good time with Daddy in the town………………..and that startled me like ‘no’ those days are gone like I was surprised that people (her) thought this was still possible. I was ‘;stubborn’ and determined to ‘go my own way’ and had ‘given up on my Dad’ or ‘rejected’ him. But it’s like a part of me hadn’t and that surprised me. Anyway I am rambling but there is something about you talking about those books they for me symbolized my alienation and going away from my Dad.
Also it occurs to me know this thing of ‘stopped talking’ it always seems to me the worst thing it has happened to me some times and it always seems wrong not to mention painful but see I did it too…………….to my Dad the one I loved the most………………….I wonder if PR man will find some ‘fault’ in all this will if find it fails to ‘pass’ some imaginary primal test some hurdle I will fall at some ‘failure’ he will grasp at to make his own miserable life a bit better, there are some twisted motherfuckers in the world and also in primal therapy it did not seem to unwind the twist actually made it worse it seems, now an ‘ideology’ which makes sniping and quoting and poking ok I am telling him knock it off people in glass houses should not be trowing stones he says his deportations problems are ‘settled’ I don’t believe him necessarily too ‘short’ a description for wordy PR man, PR man always has something to say and and always the last word. Well PR has limits too though I am sure PR man will try to spin that too…………………..of course to day with keyboard warriors everywhere PR men can sound brave and tough but it’s not ‘real’ cowards hiding behind keyboards a long way from the “Doors of Perception”…………….
Patrick,
That’s sad how you lost the special connection you had with your father.
I am trying to keep things good between my son, “C”, and I. He actually has
a very wide range of musical interests. On his Christmas list are a lot of records, which he prefers to CDs or MP3 files, and they include rap, jazz, and old stuff like “Cream”, and Sam Cooke. C is teaching himself to play the guitar and harmonic and practices singing songs including Bob Dylan and the Beatles. I have been impressed with his progress.
I spoke to him about those books and he assured me his interest is because of the Doors, and not out of a plan to fool around with psychedelic drugs. I gave him my own opinion and warnings about that anyway. I am feeling better about it after the talk we had.
Phil
That sounds really good Phil. I was ;’into’ music too very much…………..but in a waanade kind of way. I never played an instrument. So it’s always a kind of ‘watching’ only for me can’t really take part. But I accept all that more now it is what it is as the Italians say. At least I ‘loved’ music and actually still do very much. It sounds like you son will be OK……………unlike me I suppose I can add
Patrick,
I love music too, but don’t play an instrument. My son has good patience and
persistence with things he’s interested in, like skate boarding and now music.
At age 11 or 12 he spent many hours trying to do an “ollie” on his skateboard while
I was watching. It’s a basic but difficult trick involving popping the board, and yourself, up into the air,
After months he finally got it. I just hope he’ll apply that to academics or something else leading to a career of some kind.
Why weren’t you or won’t you be OK?
Phil
Long story Phil…………….but I was talking about the past I mean I am ‘ok’ now or as ‘ok’ as I am ever likely to be. That’s the short version of the long version.
> my mom just told me the male nurse who comes in the morning to make sure she takes her medication, hit her, and dragged her by the arm or shoulder, and was brutal to her.
> I promised her to contact the organisation and to request they send someone else, preferably a female nurse.
> she sounded relieved I believed her, or took her complaint seriously enough to do something about it, and romised to take her pills if someone else would come.
>
> it is distressing, and I can only reach them tomorrow morning.
> she is even afraid he will be angry at her, and says she won’t let him in anymore.
> so I will call them as early as possible tomorrow morning..
> it might not be entirely true it happened this way, she might remember it wrongly, but I will let them know as if they get another complaint that should be enough proof, and I definitely want someone else.
> he seemed ok, but well, you never know..
> M
Margaret, Has your mom ever reported something like this that you later discovered was inaccurate? Gretch
False memories syndrome ? Something that plagued attempts to understand the ‘holocaust’
Quote:- “False memories syndrome ? Something that plagued attempts to understand the ‘holocaust’”
Can’t let go of it … can you????? How about good memories????? Something you always claimed to be good at … maybe you’re full of failed ones yeah??????
Jack
Jesus Christ………………do you ‘lie in wait’ for me to say something. maybe you check the computer hourly or it seems you do………………I haven’t written anything in more than a week and within a few minutes there is that trusty old perv………………..’poking’ or whatever you call it……………….I suggest you get away from the computer and get a little sunshine and fresh air that way a little light might penetrate to your eye and hopefully brain ………………..and quit all your ‘medications’ that way your ruined microbiome might make some light also……………………but I understand in primal fanatic land where nothing else exists it should do it all for you…………….well obviously it hasn’t you sit in front of a screen all day waiting for a chance to talk shit to me…………………..you REALLY should have better things to do with your life…………………for all your talk you are living proof it does not work certainly the way you do it……………….and don’t forget keep ‘quoting me and poking me’ I might still let you trailer home neighbors know what a pervert you are……………….
Margaret, It sure sounds like something must have happened with that nurse and your mother, even if she might have remembered it wrong. Enough reason to request someone else.
Phil
As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted by trusty old perv PR man………………about ‘false memories’ and the holocaust though really I think this is mostly a case of just lies not actually false memories
I have been reading a lot about 9/11 and related subjects (a bit late I will concede) anyway maybe this is the simplest way I can put it.This is footage of the collapse Building #7 right next to the towers
How do people think that came down? what was the reason and what was the mechanism.? It seems to me the 2 main towers very likely came down for the same reasons and mechanisms……………………….yet no plane hit building 7. So were the planes necessary for the buildings to come down……………….it seems not and if not what’s actually going on here? Almost certainly nothing to do with the ‘official story’ Once you probe into ‘lies’ it’s easy un-fortunately to find more and more of them………….
On the subject of ‘big fat ones’ below is from Dr Arthur Janov’s blog this week. I mean was any of this that he talks about here done? My guess is no it was not. So what would you call this then?
Before I do go further I want to note something that I found in many depressives that led me to my conclusions. I did measurements during their Primals and found one key reaction: the deeper they got into the kernel of their depression the lower their body temperature. Sometimes lower by 3 degrees. It would seem dangerous but it was not. But why that drop? And more important why did they usually soon come back to the so-called normal range after the session?
Bob Dylan’s song “It’s not dark (but it’s getting there). Some words from the song
Well I been to London and I been to gay Paree
I followed the river and I got to the sea
I’ve been down to the bottom of a whirlpool of lies
I ain’t lookin’ for nothin’ in anyone’s eyes
Sometimes my burden is more than I can bear
It’s not dark yet, but it’s getting there
I wish my Dad talked to me like Phil talks to his son, or like Patrick’s Dad talked to him.
I know my Dad was deficient as a parent, but this afternoon I didn’t want to see that side. My Dad, a dairy and grain farmer, had two brothers living each a mile away north and south of us, each grain and dairy family farms like we were. One uncle and aunt were Jehovah Witnesses, so they didn’t do Christmas. The other aunt and uncle were non-religious, like us. For some reason they chose not to practice Christmas either. I felt bewildered and sad for my cousins deprived of Christmas magic, and warm toward my parents who made Christmas for us.
Despite the hard work of milking cows twice a day and raising a family of 6 kids, my parents made sure there were plenty of presents under the tree for us on Christmas morning, and often we had relatives over for a big Christmas meal Mom prepared. Those are special memories for me from my early childhood, and I’m touched that my parents made them happen even though they were already burdened by heavy toil keeping a farm running and raising a large family.
Every morning Dad was up at 5 am to start milking cows at 5:30. We weren’t to open our presents until after he was back in the house following milking, usually between 8 and 9 am. When we were little kids, I don’t know how Mom was able to keep us patiently waiting for him. But we wanted him there of course. It felt more special for us all to be together, to see the joy it gave my parents to make Christmas magical for us. Thinking about it on the drive home from work this afternoon brought tears to my eyes.
I wish I could go back in time and do it over, the right way this time. This afternoon when I got home and started crying, I realized what I really wanted when I was little waiting for him on those Christmas mornings, was when he came in from his hard work in the barn to walk up to him and hug him, and to feel his arms around me, loving and caring. It never actually happened in my entire life.
I am their first child, a male who Dad could pass the farm on to when he got old. But I had asthma. So they had another child, a boy again. But my brother had asthma too. So they had two more, my sisters. Then one more, a boy who didn’t have asthma. That’s where they intended to stop, but 6 years later one more, accidentally apparently. My Mom became depressed at unexpectedly having to nurse and raise a 6th child, this time another boy without asthma. Both of those two brothers grew up to be farmers.
My Dad, both my parents for that matter, were cold and aloof, emotionally damaged in their own childhoods from being born into large families toiling in the hard work of farm life that left no room for human need and sensitivity.
I needed my Dad to hold and love me, but as I grew up I realized he was disappointed in me, that I was not the farmer’s son he wanted. I needed him so much, but instead there was a vast cold chasm between us.
A little boy in me still needs him, desperately. I wish I could go back and do it over, do it right, hug him and be hugged the way it should have been. This therapy and the therapists help me to see the unmet need and what it did to me, take me right up to the edge of the abyss and leave me there, hurting with the burden of a void that is mine forever, that I can’t but see for me will never…can never be met now that both my parents are gone.
It’s funny Larry you and I have never ‘vibed’ that well with each other but we have quite a lot in common in the way we grew up. We had cows also and we grew onions ‘commercially’ in large amounts so the main focus was always the farm. Everything else was subservient to that. I felt my Dad as a warm presence most of the time and my protector from my Mom but still and all the farm always came first. Not me or any of my brothers or sisters we then kind of scrapped for what was left over
I had big needs and big appetites and kind of ‘powered’ my way through but a little child should not have had to have ‘power’. Of course i did not have it either I just put it in my mind mostly. But in a way I had it too, I put it down to my time with my Grandparents I was treated so well there and in my unconscious mind I had an ‘example’ and example of how things could be and were in other places. So I was a ‘rebel’ against the system already at home, deliberately finagled and arranged so I would go to boarding school at 13 y.o.I was always kind of ‘running away’ running away to the next great thing the next best thing. This continued until I read the Primal Scream. Now though I had a problem I had to ‘run away’ to find that or get that.
And I did after quite a struggle……………..I remember my first session at the PI Leslie Pam came up to me and said “I am your therapist” I knew him from pictures and brochures he had written in some of Janov’s books he seemed a kind of 2nd in command to me at least…………..so I felt ‘chosen’ by him and well I was happy about it like I was already someone a bit ‘special’ so like now I really had ‘arrived’ my life was about to start.
And that is mostly from I remember from my 3 weeks I went into the room with him and lay down on the floor in front of him in the comfy chair and bawled my eyes out and cried for a long time. The feeling was “i have finally made it here, made it here after all my wanderings all the mis-direction and sheer TIME it took me. I had read the primal scream over 5 years before and it took me that long…………….that’s a long time at a young age (20 y.o to 26) to wanting and waiting for something and me an impatient person too.
This might help explain my ‘disgruntlement’ a bit also like I felt I had ‘made it’ here but soon I found out I had it all still to do…………….and I now it seems to me that was all a bit much for me I was a ‘stranger in a strange land’ without marketable skills and pretty soon I found myself working in a gas station pumping gas for Beverly Hills customers. I could not even drive a car so there was an awful of lot of ‘newness’ made it a bit hard to focus on the ‘oldness’ but anyway I survived it all and I am still here to tell the story………..
That’s the best comment I have ever seen you pout on this blog, from my (PR) perspective. You talked about yourself in very clear terms, precipitated in your reading of Larry’s post. If you were to do that more often, I feel you would not only do some great good for yourself, but would keep the tone to what I feel this blog is really meant for.
I have made a poinrt of sending this comment to you to show you that I can acknowledge when I feel you do something that I thought was not only valuable to you but for others also.
Jack
That’s the best comment I have ever seen you put on this blog, from my (PR) perspective. You talked about yourself in very clear terms, precipitated in your reading of Larry’s post. If you were to do that more often, I feel you would not only do some great good for yourself, but would keep the tone to what I feel this blog is really meant for.
I have made a poinrt of sending this comment to you to show you that I can acknowledge when I feel you do something that I thought was not only valuable to you, but for others also.
Jack
Sorry: for the repeat. A computer glitch on my laptop.
Jack
Well Jack thank you for that and I give you you kudos too because I think there IS a difference in me or in my approach and I have to say I am impressed that you notice. I would like to represent to myself and therefore others that you are ‘all ideology all the time’ but the fact you pick up on this impresses me like you are alert and are responding to what is ‘real’ to a good degree and not simply repeating your ‘ideology’
To sort of say what I mean……………….I was reading about Frank Sinatra’s life in the Irish paper and they talked about how he married Mia Farrow though he was much older than her and in spite of the fact he had come through 2 marriages that were both ‘train wrecks’ was the word they used. It often has struck me that word………………….how descriptive it is how it evokes and describes an evolving disaster but I allow my brain to ‘meditate’ on that word and what it means to ME. And I let me brain go and let it recognize and ‘admit’ how maybe ALL my significant and important relationships (including with you) have been ‘train wrecks’ and also my main project in life my business also ended up essentially as a train wreck. This is painful stuff to recognize and I don’t want to everything in me fights it ………………yet I know and now feel deep down it is true. Hard for me very hard as I am ‘proud’ and ‘strong’ but well I have been brought low by the truth, the truth of my own nature working itself out.
What can I do as a train wreck happens I want to hold onto something, find some ‘good’ in it, some justification etc etc……………….but once the process starts a train wreck cannot be stopped all I can do is watch in horror and admit and feel the forces at play, why it happened and the way that it did. In other words to stop fighting it and well surrender to it…………….and I suppose hopefully feel some peace after it and maybe later even learn something from it. Less likely to repeat it or do it again but I suppose above all just the process of self knowledge that in itself is the supreme good to me. I will stop there as I feel myself getting lost but again thanks and I do feel some kind of new coherence happening to me……………..hope it continues…………
Yes, Patrick, come to think of it you are the only person who I’ve met in Primal who grew up on a farm like I did. Aside from the fact that farm life was soul crushing hard work the way my Dad and uncles conducted it, I was further traumatized pretty early by being left in hospital for a week with asthma at 11 months old, then left to live with relatives in the City from 1 1/2 to 4 years old. I never completely recovered, am slow to trust, and have a hard time feeling like I belong. I was fragile. Teenage and adult life overwhelmed me. I couldn’t power my way through anything. I feared for and had little hope for my future until I read the Primal Scream.
On my 8 day drive down for the therapy, I was so looking forward to finally meeting the Janovs, letting go and placing myself in their hands and getting cured. I believed I’d be healed in 6 months, maybe a year in my case. In my three weeks it was made clear to me that the therapist wasn’t going to skillfully manipulate me into primals while I just sat back and let it happen. It quickly became obvious and made sense that It was I who was going to have to do the work, face what I was afraid of and use the therapy and therapists to help me. It seemed like and overwhelming, tall tall order, but soon I got over my doubts and focused on going forward in my life one step at a time this time in a healthier direction, this time with help that I believed in, that I felt was the best there was in the world.
To begin with, I took work on a sandwich route. Never, in my fragile, shy, isolated life did I ever foresee myself taking on such a stressful public role. I was sure I’d be overwhelmed in a short lived, failed attempt. Vivian thought the work would be therapeutic for a shy recluse like me. She was right. Working on the sandwich route totally changed my outlook, taught me to embrace what I am afraid of and the feelings which inevitably arise, and in this therapy I learn how to confront and deal with them rather than run from them like I had all the previous decades of my life.
When I was little living with my relatives in the City, I think I was fortunate that when my Uncle came home from work he’d pick me up, hold me and make a fuss over me. And my cousin who was 7 years older than me, also spent time with me, talking to me, holding my hand and walking with me, showing me things, explaining things, lifting and holding me. It’s the only human contact I remember growing up, and I suspect I’m really lucky that I got it. Later back on the farm I think I knew deep down that something was wrong with the way we lived. I wanted my parents to snap out of their zombie state and start giving us kids the emotional nurturing we needed. It never happened.
This music video for me captures the stultifying decay of being afraid or unable to act upon feelings for someone you care about and who you want to care about you.
> Phil, nice you could talk with your son and express your concerns.
> Larry, it was touching to read you had some partly good experience with christmas somehow.
> sad there is that abyss as well though, for me an abyss is a very strong and recurrent theme in my nightmares..
>
> went to the dance, and was asked to dance by six different guys, some several times, so danced most of three hours until I had to stop because of my aching feet..
> so that was good, danced also with a new guy which is always giving me a good and hopeful feeling, even while he was not my type, it gives me a feeling of open possibilities..
>
> we did adress the problem of my mom’s complaint, talked to the nurse, and to the company, and repeatedly with my mom, seemingly there has not much happened in reality, as only the guy that always goes and one very gentle female nurse have gone there last week, so probably she has had a dream or something or a bad feeling which turned into a distorted memory, which has happened before.
> it all turned out ok though, it was good there was an open communication about it, and even if something did happen, the person who did it must be warned now not to do it again.
> also my mom felt pretty reassured she was not ignored and taken seriously, which helped her to get over it.
> so we did the right thing and it was responded on in the right way.
>
> this morning have to go on the hunt for an i-phone as it can replace a number of my other electronical devices as it has also the fine Voice over system in it.
> and a manual of 177 pages, not to mention the aps I’ll put on it and how to use those.
>
> a whole range of special swipes and ticks with up to four fingers at once and three repetitions gives a herd of voice over commands, one also swithching briefly to a standard swipe or click if necessary.
> a whole new field to study and discover..
>
> and then more grocery shopping in the afternoon, my poor feet will have to keep going another day despite still being a bit sore..
>
> feel a continuous lurking feeling of depression I don’t want to give into, so maybe it is not that bad I have to keep going..
> M
Sounds like you are wading through and tackling in a responsible effective manner a number of problems that need tending to. And six guys on the dance floor, some several times… where do I get in line Margaret?
As Monty Python put it “and now for something completely different”……………maybe I can only take so much ‘personal’ stuff for one day I want to talk about something ‘general’ something to do wtih the world and not only or just me…………..a ‘defense’ I suppose but still I don’t or won’t allow myself not to be interested in the ‘world’ it always has been an interest to me and I think it always will be I might even say I hope it always will I see no good reason to stop and won’t well until I die and then I will have to. It reminds me for some reason…………..my Mom last Summer was dying and she felt it herself and started to talk about it more and more and she started to say to my brother and me “I want to die” “it won’t do all these drugs and tablets won’t do I have had enough of it now I want to die” And I was like not saying anything kind of ‘let her have her feeling about this recognize and even honor it. Just be quiet and hold her hand and ‘support’ her as she goes down the tunnel kind of thing. My brother says to her “ah sure don’t be in any hurry to go there you will be there long enough” I don’t even know why I am saying this or the relevance of it…………but to say I suppose I AM interested in the world and I will long enough be NOT interested in it when I die which will be long enough so a round about way of saying well I AM interested so……………………
I just read what to me what truly an amazing and even ‘beautiful’ book by Dr Nick Kollerstrom (Gretchen’s least favorite person she described him and this is just from memory as a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’ among other things) and to keep it as non controversial as possible I am NOT talking about his book about the holocaust “Breaking the Spell” I will keep away from that at least for now………………no this is another book of his and is called “Terror on the Tube” and is about the London Underground train bombings in 2005 what they call over there the events of 7/7 because it happened on July the 7th in 2005. In the UK their 7/7 is really like our 9/11. I really enjoyed reading it also I think as I lived in London for 5 years in the ’70’s so all the places he talks about well I know them I lived there and only got around on the underground. But that is not the main point I am talking about………………..the thing is he sets out to show that these events were NOT caused or done by “Muslim extremists” but he has to conclude were done by the ‘security services” in other words an ‘inside job’. I imagine the book might not appeal to someone who was not on some level prepared to believe such an apparently out-landish notion but really I would not be prepared to even consider something like that if I did not already ‘like’ him. I like him very much indeed and find his mind fascinating the way he puts things together. To me an ‘open mind’ and therefore a ‘beautiful mind’ I followed every sentence in his book in rapt attention and to me and maybe only to me or people like me he ‘shows’ and ‘proves’ his case.
But what I find fascinating is just as interesting as the specifics of 7/7/2005 MORE interesting is the implications of OTHER events and I am thinking specifically about 9/11 above all. The events in London are not so huge as here it’s like the size allows one to wrap the mind around it and consider it but the implications to me are clear IF it is true there and in that case it IS true here and in our case almost certainly His key point or ‘explanation’ hinges on the ‘method’ used and it involves ‘drills’ the security services engage in these elaborate drills like emergency acting out of a catastrophe but at a certain point the drill goes ‘live’ and what was just a preparation becomes the real thing. And yes and I was even aware of this there was a ‘drill’ more than one going on as 9./11 evolved and happened and it all sort of starts to make some kind of horrific sense. Maybe another example of a ‘train wreck’ but I do NOT want to or believe it is useful to ‘reduce’ this to an ‘old feeling’. Maybe both and ‘old feeling’ and something true and real about the world we live in now.
BTW I wonder if I am the only one who somehow finds this whole thing in San Bernadino ‘weird’ or ‘strange’………………………there is something about it that ‘smells’ something very off and well maybe you guessed it there WAS a ‘drill’ going on that morning. If you read about these ‘events’ look for the ‘drill aspect’ and well I started to check into this Paris event and well surprise surprise there WAS a drill there too…………………..something to think about. Are we living in a world of ‘fake terror’ a world where fear is deliberately and constantly stoked to achieve ends like a police state at home and constant wars abroad it seems to be so……………….a major ‘train wreck’ seems to be happening……………..
Just another response from me (the PR man) that touched me on a couple of things from this comment of yours. The most touching moment was you talking about your moither’s death and you holding her hand, … and her feeling that she finally wanted to go. I feel that comes to most of us in the end … like we have done it all, and now to just go to “eternal rest and peace” as t’were.
The other point you mentioned, was being interested in what is taking place in the world. I too am interested in what is going on in other places. Maybe you are right… it’s and act-out.
The point about all the terror going on, for me, is the ability to easly commit violence on the scale of multiple killings. For as long as we humans have been neurotic I feel there has been this notion that we can avenge our angers about others, by killing them. That, to me is what wars are about. Yet somehow we don’t refere to wars as terrorism. We’ve sort of sanitized it … yet it is terrorism by my way of reckoning.
That brings me back to what is now deemed terrorism currently taking place. Whilst there are easy access to guns and bullets; some will seek to use them to avenge their angers. It seems so simple, especially if one thinks one can get away with it. The other is for those that are depressives and angry it makes sense to them (I feel) to take ones life (suicide) and take others with us. That is what I feel 9/11 was all about. That it got wrapped up with an ideology and especially a religious ideology, is one of the evils (as I see it) of religion … and/or political ideologies.
There have been more atrocities committed in the name of all the religions, that most don’t care to think about. It’s not that I am particuarly scared, as of right now, but it is my take as to why most of these so called terrorist-acts are taking place. It’s now easier than ever to kill another person/s. For me, all other theories are questionable.
Jack
Jack,
I think your right about having an interest in world events. It can be a distraction,
a defense, a way to focus on things that are not really relevant to what’s going on
in our immediate lives.
Phil
Phil: I fear you are right; it’s a distraction … but old habits die hard
When I lived in Spain for 10 years my mother and father came to visit and since I had no access to TV or could read Spanish newspapers I was totally unaware, other than through word of mouth, what was going on in the world. My father asked if that bothered me and my cryptic reply was:- my news is what is taking place in the village here and one of the women has just had a baby and I said that was my news.
Not sure my father toitally understood it, but strangely enough it did not bother me. So! I did have a period when the world news was unavailable to me.
Jack
Kollerstrom’s book is not the kind of book that one would think would make a person cry. But I did find myself crying at this……………..one of the guys accused of the bombings had a friend a young guy who was a friend of his “His Bangladeshi parents had died when he was very young so he had been looked after by Tanzeer (one of the accused)”. Anyway he had a strong bond with this older guy and after he got into all this trouble wrote of poem of gratitude and appreciation to his older friend
“The Gates of Memory I will never close
How much you mean to me no one knows
Tears in my eyes will wipe away
But the love for you in my heart will always stay”
Simple and I don’t even know if it was written in English or if that is a translation. But there is something about this I found so moving, in a way it’s like something you might find in some cheap Hallmark card but overlooking all that as I sort of do nowadays to the sincerity and simplicity of that. Also that was one thing I really liked about the book he shows real affection and appreciation of these guys as people, he calls them ‘lads’ really as just young English guys or guys in England trying to fit in and make their lives there and actually real ‘innocents’ in more ways than one. There is also something to me in………………..how the very people everyone throws shit on and ‘hates’ are sometimes (often times) the innocent ones and the baying pigs who ask for their blood are the ‘villians’ sort of the case of human history so much of it has to do with the ‘slaughter of the innocents’ the native people here, the Aborigines, the Irish well you get the point……………
> don’t know how much it has to do with the time of the year, dark days and xmas coming up, but I feel very down and lonely these days.
> all I can do is to try to keep going, doing stuff as if I don’t it only gets worse and more miserable without leading anywhere but to depression.
> once I felt it was useful to lay down and let the sadness break through, could do that by mentioning my former cat’s name, and had a long and deep cry, which took away some of the tension of disconnected feeling.
> now I am in a sort of ongoing state of gloom again, but it might be caused to being too much on my own in reality, sometimes literally having noonne to even call, unless primal people faraway while i need somebody here really to have a nice time with..
> but hey, I did sign up for a weekly class of gym and condition training, starting on the 15th of january, hopefully will make a new friend there, as my social circle here is really getting way too small..
> do all I need to do though in a practical sense, studying, cleaning,dealing with postponed mails to reply to etc.
> the ongoing situation with mom does not help either in making me feel good, but it is really my own life I need to deal with .
> I contacted a fellow student, a bright lady, to do one statistics course together, it is literature study, and writing a paper about a selfchosen subject after looking up the existing data about the subject.
> she promised to give it a try, although she does not live very close to me.
> but even if we don’t do it all together, while we are really supposed to work in pairs, and end up doing it on our own, she will be a great help in getting me going to deal with the library issues , luckily an on line library, and to get going.
> I contacted the teacher and if necessary can do it by myself, and do this module before the second one of statistics which is delayed for me as not transposed yet to my software system.
> it is in the pipeline but might take a long time still..
> cats are thriving, actually getting big and heavy, smiley, one specially he is really big, the other one is a smaller version of the same, and they are adorable as always, in for all kinds of mischief..
> lately they enjoy playing with water, running tabs or splashing with the drinking water they have..
> they keep me going really, give a feeling of sense to my life on moments it is hard to find..
> time of the year, but well, today I guess is the shortest day, longest night, and from now on we get two minutes of daylight more every day, more or less, sigh…
> don’t even want to think about going to the retreat right now, feels too much, but know it would be useful as always..
> M
Margaret, you’re not alone in having those feelings…I experience much of what you describe (minus the cat and mum elements now) too much time alone, not enough social events/fun, yet trying to find ways to healthify (I just invented a new word!) my situation.
Hi Margaret,
I hope you will be able to expand your local social circle. I don’t have enough friends but am meeting people at the gym. So far they are people I only see at the gym, but that’s a good start.
This morning I was looking at a website called encore.org. It is about starting a new career when you are older. I don’t know if I have the energy to do that, but I do know that I’ve been bored with my current career for quite a while now and it would be great to do something different and fulfilling.
I see my sons starting out in adult life and all the possibilities that they have and I’ve been feeling that my possibilities are over. But maybe that’s not true.
Phil
I woke from a horrible dream with the predominant feeling of betrayal – a husband in the dream cheating on me, the conflict of who looks after our little girl, and feeling that I put her in danger….In a flash I saw long relationships I’d had in the past having this betrayal element, and felt it was my fault, as somehow I let it happen. It’s hard to capture and write about this exactly…Feeling hopeless… my main wish is to find/have someone who loves me (!) and am active on a dating site. But I believe I am also fearful that again a relationship will fail, and that is holding me back.
Further reflections..my relationships have not been complete failures. I have found it hard to pin point the moment of decline, or admit that it’s time to get out of a bad relationship, because of being so needy of feeling wanted.
I recognise a pattern arising from this need, and acting from a fearful place compounds it.
> Phil, that sounds like a great idea for you to explore which options exist..
> and Jo, I can also relate to what you wrote about ending a relationship and the fear, in my case recently I discovered while talking with Gretchen, to which extend I internalized the criticisms I expect.
> I did end a long friendship in spring, just after my cat died, for feeling I felt hurt too often and did not feel enough trust anymore to keep coping with too many negative feelings coming my way.
> although I went over it a lot of times and did try to work it out, in vain, just more shit coming my way, I still am scared about being hurt more at some point, feeling I won’t be able to defend myself, won’t be able to find the proper words at the proper time despite knowing what I feel and knowing how deep it goes.
>
> it seems to be connected with my mother, with her continuous subtle criticism and with her contstantly questioning anything I say, or correcting it.
>
> I found out how i tend to scan myself continously as well, looking for what could be wrong, what I could be criticized upon, not even considering the option I am simply right.
>
> specially the option of being able to express myself and not to be hurt more by being scolded once more and crushed and punished for standing up, or for being ‘needy’, is very threatening.
>
> it made me regard normal and very acceptable need also as something despicable, and it is not!
>
> we should be monitoring ourselves to some extend, but also be aware of what we deserve and what does feels like too little and hurtful…
>
> I am totally with Barry who has said a number of times the word ‘needy’ should be banned, as it is too often used in a very negative way, as if the need itself is shameful.
>
> whenever I feel insecure, I can only think back of how deeply hurt I felt, and how opposed it was to what I expected, which was not that much really..
>
> i still hurt about it, and can only accept there was not as much there as I thought there was..
>
> sorry if I am not very clear on this, I am still working on it, and there is a lot of pain involved..
> it is all mixed in with the pain about my cat, those events were connected..
> it is scary to start trusting only your own gut feeling and standing your ground if ever a confrontation rises, or to deal with the pain of trust that can’t be restored, as attempts have definitely failed as opinions are very opposed about what happened.
>
> I do not want to be hurt more, but am still hurting as well, and do not know how to go about this..
>
> at the moment I definitely want to avoid all struggle, but somehow it feels there is more pain to be dealt with, and that is very scary..
>
> my own feelings are a mix of hurt and anger, and fear to be overpowered and crushed and hurt, annihilated..
>
> in a few words it might be ‘don’t you dare scold me for needing something, get off my back, get off my back, be nice to me!!!’
> ‘dont hurt me!!’
> starting to cry now
> if I’d picture myself as a kid yelling to my mom it might be”
> ‘don’t be mad! Treat me right! don’t hurt me! I need you! be nice to me! I deserve it! Get off my back!! Be nice!!!’
M
Margaret,
I can relate to what you might have been yelling to your mother.
Congratulations on passing your exam.
That’s nice that you are on to more interesting stuff now.
It seems my son has passed all his classes. Just barely for the one that he “forgot”
to do some online quizzes.
Now he has mentioned he might want to major in environmental studies. This kind of excites me because I was one year away from a degree in that area and then switched to health science. I have a big interest in the environment.
I don’t know how solid this decision is for my son, but at least now there is something to go by for planning. I want to discuss it with him further. Like what does he envision that career being like? Does he want to work outdoors, and where? etc. I never really discussed my major decisions with anyone, and that’s been a pattern in my life. No one seemed suitable and/or I felt I had to do it on my own. I was much too overly self reliant.
I want to help my son make a good decision.
Phil
Phil, glad you feel better about your son’s decision.
Jo, Yes I’m happy about it because he needs some goal in mind for motivation.
Phil
I feel that you are a good parent, Phil. The child in me is jealous of the caring and interest your son gets from you.
> I passed my last exam, not with a really high score but hey, feel very relieved I did pass and don’t have to do it again!
> the next course, I am into now, neuropsychology 2 and farmacology is way more interesting..
> very stormy here now, my cats race in and out through the three cat doors, with a loud clattering and some ‘urrrr’ sounds chasing each other and going with the flow of the strong wind..
> hope this old place holds on, things are starting to fall apart here gradually..
> noone here but me, on the four flooors, downstairs neighbours must be off to Roumania for the holidays, upstairs is empty and being renovated..
> just me and the cats and the wind, and an occasional worker, a few hours a day..
> M
Margaret,
Well done for passing your exam! It’s proof of your tenacity!
With regard to what you said as a child to your mother, did it help?
My sentence to mine would be more like
“don’t go away….don’t leave me … I want you …. stay with me….”……..the latter is connecting.
> wow Phil, that is great news!
> maybe his confidence got a boost with these good results! it is really great to hear he found a direction that interests him, and an important one too!
> will make a nice holiday season to celebrate!
> M
Margaret,
I’m glad my son put thought into it and seems to have made a decision. I don’t know how solid that is, so it isn’t yet a reason to celebrate..
He attends our local community college and eventually will need to transfer to a different, out of town college, to continue his studies. That idea doesn’t thrill him as he’s attached to his friends.
Phil
> another part of my feeling is ‘why can’t it be just about me for once? this is not about you!! I am hurting, I am hurting!’ ‘why don’t you see me? don’t make fun of me, take me seriously, I am really hurting! why can’t you see that? I need you to help me! don’t hurt me more!’
> Jo,
> as a kid I did not say anything, just got confused and insecure, as I was often lauged about when crying , ridiculed and not taken seriously.
> not ridiculed in a nasty way, but as if it was ok to talk about how funny I looked when crying , there are actually a number of snapshots of me while crying..
> and for my mom dominating me or making me feel wrong and guilty about needing or wanting something, as I say, I intrnalized it as she would get very cross otherwise and give me the cold shoulder and act hurt and disappointed and impatient, you know, the works…
> so all I could do is clench my teeth, and feel not understood, and disapproved of..
> i think I already felt back then that I’d lose an important part of muself, or all of it, if I’d give in entirely and would adjust to how I ‘should’ve and behave..
> not feeling entirely accepted and not wanting to entirely change left me feeling very lonely inside..
> I stilll long for the acceptance, the curiosity for who I really am, the interest..
> it will never come, or only to some degree, briefly, and quickly change into being about her again..
> it is all so sad and depressing, specially when there is no other loving person in our life..
> my hopes to find one are dissipating more and more, leaving a gloomy kind of hopelessness and resignation to having to take care of making my own life as good as it gets…
> it makes me feel like giving up, more and more, but not quite..
> M
It sounds so confusing for you to know who you are Margaret, so difficult to know your need when it was always denied, and so difficult to get your needs met now. What you described touched several similar painful threads in me. So hard to face going on alone.
> you know what, expressing myself here really makes a difference. also wrote a bit to someone else, and just having shared really helps to break through the paralizing feeling of isolation and hopelessness..
> M
My uncles and aunts, and my cousins, when I was little who my family often shared a big meal with and fun times over the holidays…I want to be with them, back in those times. But my aunts and uncles are almost all gone, my cousins scattered, where are they, what happened, how did I end up being so all alone.
Mom and Dad, I haven’t broke though to them yet. I still need them. Their time can’t be up, bring them back. I can’t be all alone. How did this happen!
I will spend Christmas with my brother and sister-in-law and two young adult nephews. I will come slinking into their home, an outcast who doesn’t belong, has no one, doesn’t deserve inclusion, who never fit in, who never felt accepted, who was always a shadow hoping to blend in unnoticed. If not for my brother and his family taking me in I am unmoored, an outcast living under bridges in cardboard boxes.
LIfe is too hard when Mommy and Daddy don’t hold me, don’t love me, don’t see me, for all of my life. I need and they don’t see. It hurts so much, too much.
This Christmas is hard. I want it to be over.
Larry,
I hope you will enjoy Christmas at your brother’s house with his family. You do deserve very much to be included.
Phil
I’m sorry to hear how hard this time of year is for you Margaret, Jo and Larry. I’m glad you can write here though. I hope little moments of joy and/or peace arrive for each of you.
This video is the old time Christmas classic with David Bowie and Bing Crosby for you to know Margaret, and in case it doesn’t translate across the borders for everyone here.
Happy Holidays and All the best for 2016!
ox L.
> Larry,
> yes, it was and is confusing when one’s pain and need is not acknowledged , or not taken seriously, or even disapproved of.
> it undermines selfconfidence and leaves a lot of suppressed anger, shame, guilt, confusion, all s
> resulting in a continuous feeling of resentment and unfullfillment.
>
> it still kind of feels like an open wound, and I feel scared it would be hurt again..
>
> it seems healing to allow ourselves to need, and to not feel bad about it.
> I think we are mature enough to know when it is within our own range of what we find acceptable in different settings, like which treatment we minimally need in order to continue a friendship or not, which might be different for al of us.
>
> one thing I learned in therapy, one of the main things, is to stop bending over backwards to please, and that made and makes a huge difference.
>
> we all are entitled to our own personal standards, and to stick to them..
>
> sorry if I am being cryptic here, am trying to work out my own thoughts…
>
> trusting in our ggut instincts, seems to be necessary while undoing the selfdoubt and confusion that was once imposed on us, isn’t it?
>
> you seem to have come a long way in that area already Larry, and are an inspiration to me.
> M
Yes our gut instincts, that we denied for too long, are our greatest strength, that will help us through all the difficulty of now.
Margaret, I am touched that I inspire you. It seems there is so very little real that we blog friends can do to help each other. God, if I inspire you, then I must keep on battling my demons, because I want you to not succumb to yours.
Polymyalgia slows me down. My strength and energy is easily sapped.
The past week I had to get more focused on the task of shopping for gifts for my relatives who I will stay with over Christmas. I put up my few decorations and mailed out the last of the Christmas cards I want to send. It brings up Christmas memories and longing for some of the few happy Christmas times in my past. It also brings up sadness and emptiness and I’m not able to get diversion from it.
Because I tire easily, I curtailed some of my social life to conserve energy to get Christmas chores done. Last Thursday, I went to the gym but not to choir practice. Last Friday, my dance partner was busy with her Christmas chores and had to cancel salsa lessons we intended to try together. Trying to get last minute shopping done on Saturday, I skipped going to brunch with photography pals. At least Saturday evening I went to dinner and a movie with a friend, who is in a tough spot in his life right now and wants to know more about the retreats, so I told him about my life and the reasons for my interest in Primal. It opened up a lot of memories and feelings for me, and a shocking glance at how fragile and empty my life was as I grew up. On Sunday morning I tried to finish shopping and didn’t go to church. In the afternoon I went to the gym and was too tired to go to the special pagan church service that evening.
I’m starting to feel so lonely shopping for Christmas presents, and being derailed from the healthy social inputs that I need in my life. I’m remembering how lonely Christmas felt as a teenager and young adult. I’m sinking into aloneness in my present, and feel hounded by the aloneness of my past. I’ll be glad when I have the presents all bought and wrapped and I can divert more time and energy to I hope enjoying being with people and distancing myself from my past. But that is a few days away. Today I finish shopping and wrapping and packing. Tomorrow I drive to Winnipeg, a long, solitary, 9 hour drive through winter on the prairies. I’ll be glad if I can get some relief from the spectre of the emptiness in my soul. I usually get recharged by visits with family and friends in Winnipeg. I usually get recharged by my social life here that I’ve diverted myself from for the past week.
I’m having a hard time escaping from a truth that I need to be loved and held, something I denied when I was little because it wouldn’t be met, but I’m left with eternal emptiness and ache from then, compounded by a void in the present.
Mommy and Daddy, I need you to love me. Before you die, please break through your armour of disinterest and let me know that you do.
The scene that seems to have central poignancy for me, from which emanated the rest of my life pattern of denial of who I am and what I need, is when I return to home on the farm at 4 years old after living 2 1/2 years with relatives in the City.
Mommy and Daddy Please! Wrap you caring arms around me, hug and hold me close, for a long time.
We all die alone together.
Yes, Guru. We don’t see the hurt in each other enough to reach out and help.
Thank goodness we are a new generation to change that. Hope all have a good day today.
S
I haven’t been here in a few weeks to see any of this — but I like what you wrote, Sylvia.
yes, happy holiday season to all of you too!
>
> I was very touched by an item on the news.
> there was a 3 year old girl who saved her mom and her unborn brother by calling the emergency services.
> they send out a part of the conversation with the little girl, who called to say her mommy had fallen down the stairs and had gone asleep, and that there was a little baby as well, inside her mommy’s belly.
> she had a really sweet very young voice, but was so clear and together, which for some reason touched me very much..
> she could give all the necessary information and her mom and the unborn kid were saved, and the little boy came safely into this world a month later.
> the little girl got some kind of reward medal, but it was the sound of her voice, both vulnerable and strong and sweet and smart that triggered me.
> 3 years, it is so impressive, she was more together than most adults would have been, still a truely ‘real’ kiddo..
> M
> we will go to my brother’s place tomorrow, he will pick me and mom up in the morning and bring us back in the evening, a lot of driving for him but he prefers to do it this way this year for several reasons.
>
> i just called my mom and she said she was not feeling well, dizzy, her joints aching and her chronic ear infection hurting badly..
> i tried to make her look for her antibiotics but she was reluctant to start searching and said she had taken painkillers and had met the doctor on the street and talked with him briefly.
> so I can’t do much but let go, and hope for the best, but it did trigger some fear and tension..
> feel kind of down and not in for anything today, apprehensive for tomorrow I guess..
> hardly feel up to doing the minimal stuff I need to do to get things ready, not much more than that, seem to feel too depressed..
> lonely, sad, scared, and knowing this is what it is and I have to do with it at this point of my life and make the best of it anyway..
> thank heavens I have my gorgious cat guys to cheer me up, have some yummy chicken breast ready for them as an extra christmas treat..
> will be honme alone with them tonight, xmas eve, smiley, poor me, but don’t mind too much, as tomorrow all day family day..
> today my little feline family and me and a tiny ledlamp xmas tree that cost me about 2 dollar..
> hard time of the year, but totally off painkillers which is good, despite sometimes missing the one ‘ good’ moment of the day when they start to work.. not too badly though, as I sleep well which is the only thing that really matters to me, as what I hate most is tossing and turning while feeling tense.
> at least we are regaining some daylight every day from now on, ha!
> M
Margaret, sounds like nice plans for tomorrow. I hope your mom will be feeling better so she can enjoy the company.
We are staying home to enjoy a holiday dinner and exchange gifts. It is always so hectic leading up to Christmas. I am driven to try to make it special for my kids, even though they are big now. We always end up having a great
time and that’s what I anticipate for this year as well. Sadness comes up too, because of people not with me, but that is expected too, and I can deal with it.
Happy holidays to you and everyone else on the blog!
Phil
> thanks Phil, your wishes do brighten up this day a bit.
> nice to hear at least about one happy family, and even more so as it is yours, having a good time!
> hope things will go well over here tomorrow, always somewhat inpredictable in my family..
> M
Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to all of you in the Primal Community! Gretch and Barry 🎄
Thank you Gretch and Barry, and to you too 🎄!
Hi Gretchen and Barry
Happy Channukah, Xmas and New Year to you and your family.
Tom
Just some random thoughts the second day of Christmas:-
This year, more than ever, I felt that Christmas is really for children. Not as a religious celebration, but a type and depth of fun that only children seem to know. I was able to avoid all the carols and other (pseudo) rituals of the season.
Jim and I spent Christmas dinner with my nephew and his wife and a grand nephew staying with them. It was a great evening and I spent a lot of time reflecting on my childhood and the town I grew up in, in the north of England. The good, the bad and the downright depressing aspect of it all. My nephew could relate to quite a lot of it, but my grand nephew; very little (times have certainly moved on)
In reflecting on the evening I had insights to just what I have gained from this therapy. I feel so lucky. I reflected on why I loved the retreat so much; as for me it was a time to just go through the whole gamut and range of feeling that since therapy I now have access to. I know for many that childhood was such a horror story, and for those people It must be daunting to have to go through it all again. Mine was not that horrific (pure luck nothing more) So for me I have the utmost admiration for those that did have those horrific childhoods … to persevere and go through with it all.
In another reflection I do see why so many in the world do not want in anyway to go through it (reflexively) all over again … and I can’t say I blame them. But it is mighty SAD. Oh!!! that there was an easy way to go through it OR by-pass it altogether, and not have to suffer the unintended consequences of it. Alas, no such possibility exist, (from my reckoning these years) about it.
Not absolutely sure why I am writing all this, but my intent is:- for some good. Maybe I am very delusional. WTH
Jack
Jack, I think Christmas is for children, people who have children, and peoplewho were once children and celebrated the holiday in the past.I’m glad you and Jim had a nice time Christmas evening with your family. Phil
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 19:39:42 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
That sounds great, Jack! I didn’t know you had such an utmost admiration for me, for I can tell you right now that I went through something much worse while my brain was in its early stages of development than what would leave fully-grown adult New Yorkers begging for $10 million settlements.
(correction)….leave fully-grown adult New Yorkers begging and squealing for their $10 million settlements.
Somehow that extra adjective makes things feel more wholesome, complete, and correct for my tastes, so I felt compelled to include it.
Oops, should have said a descriptive verb instead of adjective….
Blah.
Why do you talk in riddles?????
Not a great way to communicate … or are you still hiding under that bushel??????
Quote:- ” I can tell you right now that I went through something much worse while my brain was in its early stages of development ” Ah!!!! that may account for it. Yeah?
Jack
No, you won’t admit your hypocrisy in this matter. That is all. The fact that you don’t see that or won’t admit your selectivity bias compelled me to say something about it.
fgffdwww
> Phil, how did your xmas go?
> and the other bloggers?
>
> mine went ok, apart from one incident at the end of the day.
> we were all tired and specially our mom kept repeating the same questioons incessantly, wearing us all out..
> then at some point, my brother about to drive us back home, lost the car keys and got stressed out about it, while my mom kept asking him about her own keys which he kept in his pocket as she tends to lose stuff all the time.
> suddenly something snapped and he yelled at her she as driving him crazy and sttuck her keys out to her.
> I was already siting in the back seat next to her and took them and said I’d hold them..
>
> luckily his girlfriend found the car keys, and we could take off.
> mom was silent and my brother could calm down while driving..
> she whispered a few questions to me on the way back, and at some point briefly held my hand when I checked on her.
>
> it stuck on my mind a long time, the incident had been painful for all of us, my mom must have felt shocked and my brother must have felt really bad about having a go at her.
> on the other hand I understand him, it has happened to me in the past as she can drive you to the limit of your patience.
>
> then what helped me a bit is to reflect on that when feelings rise to such a climax, it was better he got it out of his system, as keeping that kind of stress in would have been very unhealthy.
> that is what I kind of wrote to him the next day,
> and who knows, maybe mom can learn not to be so imposing, but well, probably not..
>
> otherwise it was actually a nice day, ad my sister in law came up with surprising and nice gifts.
> so well, the painful incident was unavoidable as it did happen, nothing to do about it.
> I mostly feel bad for my brother, as he is very caring and must feel bad about himself, but maybe it is ok. when something like that happened to me and I lost my temper, I tried to make it up again afterwards but also it felt kind of good to let it out..
>
> it is distressing though mom keeps losing capacities and does complain so much, like about her nurse in the morning, simply because she does not want him to come.. she says she can remember to take her mdication but that simply is not true..
>
> I hope she will accept a rooom in the home soon, if one becomes available, this is so exhausting for all of us.
> M
Hi Margaret,
Christmas was very nice here. We had turkey dinner late Christmas Eve and then the leftovers were available for Christmas day. We shared our gifts and that took all day and even had to be continued the next day. Everyone was happy with the stuff they got, although a few clothes items will have to be exchanged for different sizes.
It was very warm here and still is, so later in the day my younger son took his new skateboard and went out with his friends to give it a try. By the way,
he has now mentioned that he picked landscape architecture as his area of study from the choices listed for environmental studies. I’m feeling very good about that, as it’s a licensed professional area. It seems he can continue at the community college here and then transfer to the State University at Syracuse.
Later in the day, friends of my older son visited him at our house and they exchanged presents.
It’s also nice to see his friends, who we know very well, but otherwise don’t get a chance to see.
This year our house has become the meeting spot and they get together here to play board games. So it was a good time and is continuing because everyone is on vacation except me.
I have to work tomorrow, which is too bad, but it feels relaxed at home with everyone free.
I can relate to that outburst by your brother. Something similar happens to me when comments come out spontaneously which aren’t nice and can cause a problem. It is understandable. From what you’ve been describing about your mother over time, it does sound like it would be good if a room would become available at the nursing home.
Phil
> Phil,
> your house sounds like such a warm and welcoming place.
> it is specially impressing your odest sons friends come by specially to exchange gifts and to play board games, such simple and healthy pleasure and warm bonding!
>
> and that is another bit of good news about your youngest son and his growing field of interest, and in a very concrete manner too..
> i am happy for you and your family.
> M
Margaret,
The landscape architecture program may be a good fit for my youngest son. It emphasizes the creative process, and he is interested in creative stuff, ant it doesn’t require much math and science, which is good because he isn’t that academically oriented.
Of course he could change his mind, but I am seeing why he chose it. It could be it coincides with his interest in skateboarding. He can design outdoor spaces providing good skateboarding spots.
Phil
> having a hard time with the angry stress calling my mom often causes.
> I just called her to remind her to eat the fresh meal , one of the fresh meals my brother cooked for her and put in her fridge..
> she still had two, but did not feel like eating one now, as it was ‘too late’, not even 6.30 pm..
> but f.. why
> then did she not eat one earlier today?
> once more there will be a meal left to throw away by the time we come, which always makes my brother feel frustrated, understandably so..
> he cooks for her for the day of our visit, and three more meals, but lately he always has to throw one away.
> the frustrating thing about it is I call her sometimes several times a day to remind her to eat them, but she can be so bloody pigheaded.
> then sometimes she says she did not know whether they were still ok to eat, then why does she not give me a call and asks??
>
> if I can, I stay on the phone until she puts one in the microwave, but now she just refused to do so..
> so unless she eats two tomorrow once more one meal will have to be thrown away..
>
> I would not mind so much if it were not for my brother..
> and some old anger gets triggered when she ‘knows better’ than me, the feeling of not being listened to, not being taken seriously, not being respected I guess..
>
> all I can say about it now is it drives me up the wall, for some reason..
> i am so fed up with the endless and unavoidable struggling, can only avoid it up to a certain point, boy, I will be so relieved if ever she is in a nursing home!!!
> i am so tired of feeling responsible, feeling worried, feeling frustrated and irritated, and sad, and lonely..
> and tired and pretty hopeless..
> M
Hey Margaret, know how you feel. Frustrating, huh. When I was caring for my mom I saw a couple of guys on TV who had been caring for their wives with dementia for 7 yrs. The first was on the local news and had been a fighter pilot in the Korean war. He said caring for his wife had been much more stressful than war. The second fellow a retired policeman of 21 yrs. was developing high blood pressure and knew he would eventually need extra help with his wife.
You aren’t alone. My friend and neighbor is beginning the same journey with her husband.
It was a relief when my mom was in the safety of a nursing home. This ‘illness’ tests everyone; I guess it drove me nuts too–it’s not easy being around a loved one losing their reasoning. I think you are doing well.
Hey, thank goodness for brothers; love mine too.
S
12/27/15 Yesterday was the 2nd milestone of my new therapeutic regimen. This was a bit successful, I hope. Buddying with an Ipod in BB’s little room. That is all I can afford, besides once a month session with BB. Regimen also includes talking to those who are not there with me, per suggestion of BB. If tears flow and memories present with those tears, perhaps that will be the measure of success of this regimen. I guess another measure would be if I felt better after. Well, I had tears and I had memories and I felt a pinch (tiny tiny one) of feeling better (or the so-called “relief”). Maybe another measure is having insights. Walking around the lake today with the remaining dog (other 2 didn’t make it out of 2015), I had a few thoughts , not sure if they are insights, but maybe. The music I listened to was “Crazy Arms” (Jerry Lee Lewis/Emmy Lou Harris and another version Linda Ronstadt), “Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain” (Willie Nelson/Shania Twain), and “I like it like that” (Chris Kenner, 1961). So I did a few small tears to the first 2 songs of grief and loss, vaguely seeing in my mind the dogs I lost this year, and some other losses; maybe my murdered friend Paul’s face, maybe laying in my bassinette as a baby, devastatingly all alone at my uncle’s house after being ripped away from soon-to-die mother. The last song “I like it like that” is a decidedly more upbeat, happy, outrageous song; a song that I could not immediately realize why it has been going through my mind for months since I heard it on the radio. Playing this song over and over yesterday, I got images of a girl in my 7th grade Junior High School. She was gorgeous and completely unattainable for a shell-shocked mute such as I was (and remain). I got images of the first dance that I ever was at, where the boys and girls were all gathered in the gym on a rainy day, since we could not exercise outside. I, of course, had no mojo at all, and I watched the other “normal” boys and girls dancing, probably disenheartened, maybe I hoped I could join in, but that joy was being withheld from me like so many other things in my early life. I am thinking the trigger of the “Like it” song was that it either was being played at that dance, or at least this song is talking about a dance spot, and so the lyrics were triggering the memory, along with that familiar catchy melody that I might have heard before this dance. The thing about the lyrics, I am counting as an insight, since that thought came to me today while going around the lake. Another thought that I had today was this. The last retreat I went to 2 years ago or so, I had old stuff coming up about the military school I had been thrown into in 6th grade. During group, I was able to get myself into the Casa Maria men’s bedroom suite. I guess just being on my own at the retreat (this time without the safety or distraction of Z being there), surrounded by men in a barracks-style setting and being close to women, that was the trigger. I* was crying about having been in that horrible military school environment with very strange boys (and no girls) and barely getting by, day after day, in a very harsh atmosphere. Just prior to that 6th grade nightmare, I had been making great progress in 5th grade with a very loving teacher who tried hard to integrate me into her class, with all the other boys and girls, and I was starting to feel less isolated, making friends, feeling comfortable. The reason I was feeling isolation was that my grandmother had ripped me apart from my 3rd grade life in Hollywood, where I had a caring (though neurotic) aunt and uncle and a somewhat stable life, after I had been shuttled around for years with much pain and loneliness. So I had been making humanizing progress in the 5th grade after the first devastating year of the move, and now once again I was ripped away from new friends (and especially girls, when I was on the brink of all the angst of puberty) and plunged into the 6th grade military school hell, which really turned my head around, and not in a good manner. Anyway, the thought I had today, was that I was kind of picking up where I left off a year and a half ago, when I had to quit therapy for money reasons. At least this made some kind of sense to me, 6th grade hell experienced at that retreat, and now moving forward a year to the fallout from that 6th grade horror story, and into 7th grade heartbreak (due to my generalized and unconscious fear that if I made any kind of movements to reach out to females, I would again get battered and thrown into the dungeon). Now, I am not sure whether it matters if the Feeling sequence is linear in PT or not, but it was interesting anyway to think that I was picking up yesterday, where I left off a year and a half ago. I am probably not clearly saying this, but I got to go now , and I am going to post it now , because I probably wont do so later. Another dismal thought struck me in the middle of the night; that my current friends forever, Z, 2 kids, brother, one by one we are going to move on into the black, and it is heart-breaking, and I am defending against this reality strongly.
Otto,
I can relate to a lot of what you wrote here even though my story is different. I was really kind of mute as a child in school and would basically only talk to my friends, all boys. I didn’t talk to girls at all through high school; only cousins, and sisters of my friends and my own sister etc.outside of school I didn’t go to any dances at all, ever, I was just too shy. It was only this therapy that started turning all that around for me. There is a Facebook page for my high school class and I recently joined it. I knew about it before but had avoided it. But I look at it and realize I hardly know anyone. It’s like I wasn’t there. They will have a reunion this coming year but I feel quite doubtful that I could go to that as it would be an ordeal, not something at all enjoyable, I’m afraid.
Phil
i went to my reunion. i guess it was worthwhile. They had the best coffee i ever tasted. Everyone was drinking booze but I am a former drunk , so i did not. The girls, now women, were much older and i still could not f them.
I guess I could talk to Diane, my 3rd grade girlfriend, the next time I do the small room. If I think about it. or my aunt and uncle. about losing them all. or to my grandma, for being so stupid (at least from my perspective) of tearing me apart from that good life.
> Sylvia,
> thanks for that comment, I noticed how it took some of my stress away.
> I guess it made me realize how the ‘struggles’ to try and take care of my mom trigger often the feeling I am doing something wrong, or even that I am a mean person, or whatever bad things my mind can come up with to be critical about itself..
> it was good to read those comparisons of the stress levels smiley, and to feel I am indeed not alone in this and it is normal and accceptable and understandable..
> remains the sadness…
>
> and Otto, reading your last comments really felt like you are on a good track, way to go, hope you keep writing.
>
> and Phil, maybe you’d be surprised if you’d go to the reunion, after all you have made a good and stable life for yourself and a family, which is more than most people can say..
> M
Margaret,
This may seem odd but I feel there is hardly anyone for me to reunite with from my high school class. I just didn’t interact with people. A good reunion for me would be with the 5 to 10 people who I actually remember, out of 300. and I lived my whole childhood in that small town. What would I even say to the rest of these people.
I tend to remember people from elementary school and middle school. In younger years you spend the whole day with the same kids. High school was overwhelming for me. As far as a reunion, the bad feeling has little to do with what I have done or not done with my adult life, although I know there are many very successful people who would be showing up because it is a very rich little town, but my family was poor. This was a big issue for my sister, she left our high school before senior year in order to get away from all the rich kids.
There is something I want and am looking for though, and that’s why I’m on that facebook page.
Phil
> Phil,
> I am interested in hearing about it if you might have more to write about this subject, and what it is you are looking for.
> I never ran into any opportunity of reunion with my highschool class, but know I’d feel very reluctant to go as I’d feel embarassed about the periods of my life I can’t be proud of in relation to my former classmates..
> I also notice I have a tendency to feel embarassed about my visual handicap with people I used to know before I got it, although not with all of them, not in the primal community for example..
> a lot of my fellow classmates, all girls in that time, were wealthier than me, there was a snob clique but they were not unfriendly to me as one of them sat on the same bus and copied my homework…
> I kind of admired her good looks and tanned skin after the holidays, and also noticed the mean gossip the most of them practiced as soon as one of their own clique went off, then immediately criticisms would start, and ridiculing…
>
> what ‘saved’ me back then was the new seventies wave of rebellion, though it also got me into trouble later on..
> but I did not mind highschool too much, espite feeling somewhat diferent and often bored, I was still so young, and much like a kid still liked to run around and jump over bushes to spend my energy during the playtimes…
> and then gradually the (longhaired) boys from the boys school in the next street started drawing my attention on the very few ‘t-dansants’ and that was the start of a whole new episode…
>
> the neverending chase for afection could start, the chase for love , which without being conscient of it back then took over my whole motivation system of my life.
> the longhaired crowd started feeling like a new family to me full of promises..
> and seductions of illegal adventures..
> M
Margaret,
Besides anything else, I think I was severely depressed my last two years of high school and was feeling a lot of stress about entering the adult world. I should have realized there was no rush.
I have been fooling around a lot lately on facebook adding “friends”. Then I rediscovered my high school facebook page. The feeling maybe is there are some people there who really know me and if I can reconnect with them, that will help me reconnect with myself. After high school, in all the years, I saw maybe 3 or 4 people from my class. I thought I was finished with them, and/or rejected myself, even though I was still around town a few more years. Then I moved away and cut myself off from my past. This kind of worked a little to try to form a new “persona”.
High school was quite a miserable time for me. I already needed good therapy at that time.
Phil
Hi Phil
I may be repeating myself here, none the less, I thought I’d describe my first reunion with my class mates, last year, the first for me, after fifty four (54) years.
One of them found me on Facebook. I didn’t recognise him. He told me not only we were in the same class, but we sat on the same bench next to each other the year I left Romania.
I cut off all contact with all my childhood friends and class mates, after two years. There were two reasons. One, my parents told me that there is very little chance of me ever going back to Europe. As immigrants, we heard stories of people never having an opportunity to go back to the country of their birth. Back then, mainly due to financial reasons. Not everybody became a rich person, no matter how hard they worked.
Back then it was a four week voyage on a boat, and nobody could possibly afford an airline ticket.
The other reason I cut off contact was, that it increasingly became more painful. I didn’t know, nor understand why, then.
So, last year I went, without any expectations, as I had no clue what to expect. I was amongst them for a bit over a week. I cried intermittently,almost every day. You have to ask why.
The reason was is that THEY were so nice to me. Walked up to me to say hi. I put my hand out for a handshake. Men and women pushed my hand away, hugged me, kissed me, patted my cheek, and told me how happy they were to see me and glad that I came.
This happened out in the mountains where we first got together for a whole day picnic, Transylvanian style. It happened the following week when we met more of the class mates in the school we all went to. Then it happened overwhelmingly in the restaurant we booked out for the celebrations. People came back from all over the world. Canada, USA, Sweden, Hungary, Holland, etc, etc.
I cannot imagine what it would be like for you to meet up with your class mates. All I can tell you that I am still dining out on last year’s experience and now I am looking forward to meet up with my class mates after next summer’s retreat, in August.
Partly, I can’t stand the pain it brings up. And partly, I want the pain. It means that slowly, ever so slowly I am ‘connecting’ up with my past. Even writing this down brings tears into my eyes. Something so sweet HURTS.
Tom
Tom,
I thought you might comment on this and I am interested to hear about your experiences with it, even though you have talked about it before.
I think my class reunion will be this summer but it hasn’t been scheduled yet.
I have never gone to any reunions although they take place in or around my home town which is only about 70 miles away, not on another continent.
It will feel strange if I were to go to the reunion because I never attended social events while in high school, so it would be a first for me. It holds no strong attraction for me and would be very difficult for me to do.
Probably good to do if only for therapeutic reasons. I know that, in fact, I rejected myself from my class, and at that time decided that I didn’t like the majority of them. But actually I would have liked to have been a part of the core group including athletes, cheerleaders, and popular kids.. These would be, I imagine, most of the people attending reunions. I still imagine them as teenagers because I never saw them again all these years.
What is shocking is that I saw a list of people from the class, posted 5 years ago, who have all ready passed away. Like 20 people are already gone, out of a class of maybe 275, some of whom I do remember quite well.
It seems possible that I could go to the coming reunion, although it feels difficult. I will consider it. Hopefully a few friends I remember would be going and my wife could accompany me, and that would make it easier.
The feeling is that I could be a social failure, there will be a lot of awkward and embarrassing moments because I won’t remember so many people and they won’t remember me, or they will remember me in a negative way.
Phil
> Phil,
> that sounds like a whole other school system than the one I was in.
> basically my class of about 20 pupils , or even less, remained the same during entire high school.
> just some classes, like one or two years I did classic Greek, we were only three or four in that particular course, while some other classes were larger, but never more than twenty odd people.
> I did remain friends with a girl I knew from primary school who did another branch of the same highschool, as we always studied together before the exams, me staying over at her family’s house.
>
> always there, they were rich and I was impressed and a bit intimidated with their nice breakfasts at a well set table, white table cloth, linen napkins, boiled eggs and al kinds of stuff to put on freshly baked crunchy brands of bread and well, an organized and well functioning family.
>
> I was embarassed about my own more marginal family, my mom and possibly dad would come by with all kinds of cookies and chocolate for us students..
>
> I did notice however how tight the family rules were there, and how suppressed some of the kids had become, rying to fit in with the very conventional mould they were supposed to adjust to..
> I was a bit of a wild character in that setting, stirring probably some worries in mommy and daddy with relation to the two sons in their late teens..
> and yes, one had an eye on me and I had an eye on the other one..
> my feelings were a strange mix of a feeling of inferiority and of superiority at the same time, and in a way also I felt somehow like a cheat with all my unspoken thoughts and observations about them..
> and with my wild ‘desires’ about one of their sons, and attempts to seduce him, which never got further than one stolen kiss at a campfire..
> he had a girlfriend of his own age..
> yes, my pattern was already starting up back then, come to think of it..
> nothing to be proud of, but born out of unmet need and the irreal hope to turn disinterest into real love, a very strong and tenacious old feeling and act out that spoiled big parts of my life..
> now in what feels like the ‘harvest’ days of my life, the fall, finally I feel more how I long for the real thing, and need mutual and balanced interest and attraction..
> but chances exist they may never occur anymore and I will have to make my own life as satisfying and interesting and pleasurable as possible by myself…
>
> sad in its way, but also good to finally feel more real even if a bit late..
> am learning bit by bit to like myself better and to be gentle on myself, or strict if necessary, smiley..
> and it is ok not to be perfect..
> M
Margaret, I would have benefited from attending a high school with small class sizes and staying with the same kids, as you describe. When I say my high school class was about 275, I mean we all graduated the same year. Any particular class on a given subject would be 20 to 30 students. It also could have included students from the year ahead or behind. It can be quite overwhelming. Hallways crowded with students going from one class to another. My sons’ high school was at least twice as large as mine.
As I said my town was rich, think of Montecito. But there was a village of very modest homes, I don’t know if Montecito has that. I would go to a friends house and it could be a mansion. Our house was very modest, poorly furnished and not well kept, no mother there. My father was overwhelmed with medical bills.
My Grandmother used to help but when I got to middle school she left my father and I on our own. So it wasn’t ideal to bring any friends around, except we could do whatever we wanted. By high school I was certainly aware of how our home was much different.
Phil
Well, I wish I had selective amnesia, but no such luck. Having memories of my year at military school; having the memories at work. Muttering “I hate this place” under my breath, but I felt a shout of that coming up today, but I did not do it. I didn’t do it in the big room with other technicians and bosses roaming around. Wasn’t going to go to the car and do it, maybe I was not feeling it strong enough, plus I don’t usually do the car thing, although I have certainly heard that some people do that. I might not even hate my workplace and bosses, I am coming to realize. I might still be in military school, hating the strange, angry kids and teachers and officers, and feeling the loneliness and the insanity of that place. I am sure this cold dark weather also reminds me of the early months I spent there in the fall and winter. Squeaking beds full of snoring and coughing boys. Stinky smells of boys. We were told to change our underwear only every 2 days for some reason. Stinky smells of shoe polish and brass polish. I was probably afraid of men before this time, but this really cemented that fear into me. I am here at home tonight alone with Sophie the big dachshund. I thnk she misses the 2 other dogs who died this year. I don’t seem to miss them because I have actually do have selective amnesia, and I don’t think about them much at all now. I cant deal with death well, and I have been shut down more than ever since Z lost most of her work about 2 years ago, which meant the end of therapy for me. Shut down because my body is getting old and I don’t like it getting old. Shut down because 40 years of living with someone who is just so fucking insane about some things requires a shutdown to keep my sanity. And yet she sends me clippets from articles on how I need to be a good listener and such. She hates my hostility and anger but she is such a screw –up with money that it leaves me dead. She wants me to go to a kinda-New Years party, but I don’t, because I am never happy around her, and if she sees me happy with anyone else, it bums her out. But I am really not happy around anyone at this point. Too much grief, as mentioned above, and not just from dead animals, and not just for the slowly-dying cat in the bathroom, who loves to be rubbed still, even though she has a tumor that has made her look like a unicorn. Really too much grief, and there is no repairing this marriage and I wish she would stop thinking that this is fixable. Even if my therapy progresses, it is like a drop of rain in a giant bucket of pain, no way am I ever going to feel good, and especially with 40 years of misery with her and all the struggles we had, and all the pain we had with our kids. Anyway, going to take the kid home now. Z and he just got back from doing something. Nothing much I would have been interested in. Don’t like being around them when they are together, the energy is not my type. I am, just semi-excited that memories of military school are coming up, after crying at the PI last Saturday, and that I am able to see a bit more clearly about my present life, instead of being totally stuck in my childhood. I really hate being around men. I like seeing women. I kind of miss Gretchen’s group for that reason, but a couple of the guys there irritated me and being in a women’s group and having a speech impediment around women who can talk as easily as breathe made me feel left in the dust, as always.
I am glad you are feeling more comfortable writing here Otto. It shows in how clearly you are describing your pain in the past and present. Hope your 2016 brings you the peace, love & attention you need.
Happy New year to everyone here! Hope it is a great one!!
ox L.
I whish all of you a Happy New Year. The best for everyone
“Make out of pain a talisman that cures” is now my favorite motto
Miguel
Happy New Year!!! to everyone on the blog. Hard to believe it is soon to be 2016. I hope everyone will have a great year.
Phil
Hi All
First of all, I want to wish you all great 2016. Hope it will be better than 2015. That would be a great achievement for us all.
Now, back to business.
I want to talk about sex. I presume it’s not a taboo subject, however, I haven’t seen anyone posting much about it, other than some reference to it by Otto, the brave one.
“Sex” started for me as I started to transition into a teenager.
During a summer vacation, in 1959, I went to visit my father in the mountains, where he was buying various fruits from the people for export. This was a lowly government job, after he lost his teaching position, after we lodged an application to leave the country. Remember, I am talking communist Romania, before Ceaucescu.
I was put up in the living room of a peasant family, on whose property my father carried out his business. You have to imagine a mud brick built abode. There was a girl there, a couple of years older than I. One day she said to me…….if only you were a little bit older. I had no idea what she was talking about. I was real dumb, had no idea what she was referring to.
But. I started to have wet dreams during the nights, having sex with my mum. I was extremely distraught. How could I? Why my mum? Why not the girl, who was sleeping on the second floor and indicated “something”?????
A week later, my father put me on the bus to go home. He remarked I was very quiet, asking if everything was OK. I couldn’t tell him about my dreams. Told him I started to masturbate and my genital was hurting. He said we’ll talk about it when he comes home at the end of summer.
I do not recall if we talked about it that end of summer. But I felt guilty.
Now jump sixty five years. In the intervening years, I always had problems with sex. Only in later years did I become aware, that, sex wasn’t IT for me. I am not talking about love making here, because that, at least in my mind, presupposes a certain amount of intimacy, CLOSENESS, being together, feeling united with your loved one, your partner etc, etc. You can all correct me later if I am very wrong.
While immigrating, in 1960, we had to wait for our entry permit ( no pun intended here) to Australia, in Belgium. I felt extremely lonely, crazed in pain. My parents didn’t engage me or try to help me. As if they chose to be oblivious of me walking the streets day and night, looking for some “peace” within. Looking for a “home”.
Once we arrived in Sydney, after a while my dad did approach me asking how am I doing, as I don’t seem to be the old Tom.
He made a monumental suggestion that he urged me to follow up on, as he thought that it would help me feel better. Nothing about the difficulty settling into a new country, vastly different to Europe. Nothing about not being able to speak the language. Nothing about not having a single friend. And absolutely NOTHING about …come to me, I will hold you, make it better for you,….keeping the door open……come to me son, talk to me, I am here for you. NOTHING>
The advice was for me to go and visit a prostitute, have sex, and I will feel better.
I was by then 15-16 years old. I did go. I didn’t have a clue what supposed to happen. But sex did happen. And then I went home feeling crazed. Again, I wan’t feeling any better. I did what I was told. How come? Dad supposed to know. He wants my best????
Enough for now. A very long intro.
…………………………………
I WANT MY MUM. Do you hear me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In nine days time, it is the anniversary of my mum passing away four year ago, according to the Jewish calendar.
I will go to the Synagogue. I will try to go to the cemetery before that and sit on her grave. And will try to imagine what it’s like being one with her.
It is possible to be one with her, even after all this time, isn’t it? She’ll wait for me, somewhere in the universe, and hold me, and sooth me, and we’ll be one.
And That is IT. IT.IT.IT.IT. IT.IT.
Oh, it hurts. It never stops. Day and night. I wake up during my sleep and wait. Wait for something to happen. And wait. When are you coming to me? And hold me? And I wait.
One day I’ll figure it all out, how to get from my mum. I am not going to give up. You hear me. There has to be a way. Right?
Oh mum. I ache for you. MUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
Tom,
I can relate to how everything for you seems to come back to the same thing, and about how difficult that is to resolve.
I’ve added a couple of Facebook friends from high school; people I haven’t seen in over 40 years. I guess these efforts might lead up to going to my class reunion; I don’t know. I’ve been doing this therapy a long time but maybe haven’t given up all the ways I disconnect myself from the past, If I want to heal, I guess I should keep in mind how one thing can lead to another.
Phil
Well, this coming spring it will be 40 years since the last time I saw my high school classmates. What is bizarre for me is that one of them is a 1st cousin on my father’s side. Our families weren’t close maybe because my uncle passed away at a young age, when I was 12. But I do remember visiting their house, which was only a few miles away. All through high school I never talked at all to this girl who was my cousin. I wouldn’t even know where to begin with her. I never stayed in touch with any relatives on my father’s side, even though there was no good reason for that.
Phil
> best wishes for 2016 for all of you too!
> have a really bad cold, sneezing, eyes watering, nose dripping, throat aching… luckily no festivityies to go to, just me and cats and lots of tissues, ha…
>
> M
Hello everyone. Happy New Year. I drove back to Saskatoon yesterday. Went to work this morning. I should have scheduled a break. Too tired this eve to go to the dinner and dance I have a ticket for.
Interesting posts by several of you that I’d like to respond to, but too tired tonight.
I felt very welcome by family and friends in Winnipeg, and their pets. It was an enriching experience for me, so unlike the life sapping solitude I live with here.
On Dec. 28 8 family members comprising 3 generations went to see the Star Wars movie. What was exciting about it for me was that we all went together, a never before done movie event for us.
The movie itself let me down. I hoped for a more creative, new story line. What tugged at my emotions while watching it was the appearance of Harrison Ford.
I saw Star Wars when it first came out in 1978, with my youngest brother. Our adult lives hadn’t taken off yet. I saw the next two Star Wars movies in the early 80’s, with Noreen. We were in LA, dating, our lives taking off on a wonderful new tangent together.
Harrison Ford shows his age in the current Star Wars. Stirring thoughts of the passage of time are unavoidable. Seeing him made me nostalgic for the past, for the times of energy and eager hopeful anticipation of the future, of life to shape and live and make ours. Harrison Ford is much older and frailer now, and so am I. I’m thankful for the fun we had back then, sad that it’s past and done, never to be repeated. Seeing him in the movie, the passage of time and aging of my life hit home.
Though I’ve been hit by blows and disappointments and my time is running out and I’m older and weaker than I used to be, I want to try to make the most of what is left. This song triggers emotions of ephemerality in me. Although the song suggests we leave traces that never disappear, I feel that all traces of us disappear soon. It is hitting a sensitive chord in me that powerful, magical, moving times in my life are over and eventually leave no trace, except in my memory in my aging mind and body.
I find the song more readily triggers my feelings if I don’t watch the video.
My dad literally took me to see the original “Star Wars” twenty-four times (Yes 24 times!, it was a “Magnificent Obsession” for me) in the late 70’s. I was totally hypnotized and enraptured down to the cellular level by this gorgeous and revolutionary new space opera as a little boy and I was always tugging at dad’s shirtsleeve to get him to take me to the theater for another showing. He was exceptionally patient in allowing this to happen and to go along with me each and every time.
Now, as a crusty old war-torn adult I haven’t even bothered to see the newest “Star Wars” even once yet. No big deal; it will always be around when I’m ready for it.
Larry, this song feels appropriate today, as I got news an old friend has died today. He was a roommate in college — I met him about 38 years ago. He was “fine” until recently, then suddenly felt ill, and one month ago, found out he had Stage 4 metastasized liver cancer, and boom, he’s gone. I don’t expect people my own age to “just be gone” like that. How fragile we are. So the song resonates.
Loss is a powerful reality check, hard to face but only reality when I accept it…tough reality though that hurts big time. For me, these days opening up at deeper levels to loss in my present or recent past goes hand in hand with opening up to loss in my far distant past that I’ve clamped down on all of my life until now.
I wish you didn’t have to lose your old college friend, Vicki.
Thanks, Larry, I knew you’d relate.
Hey Larry, These are certainly very real and compelling feelings you are dealing with. I sense they feel very much part of the present and maybe to some degree that is correct but I think they are mostly old actually as well as part of the process of grieving. I’m hoping as you navigate through them you will realize there can be magic at any age and your life isn’t over till it over. Also a Happy New Year to everyone from Barry and I – Gretch p.s. Any New Years resolutions??
Yes they are grieving feelings Gretchen. My dread at going to Winnipeg for Xmas and worrying about not belonging proved groundless. I was touched by the welcome and appreciation family and friends showed me, which hurt in a different, good way. My dread at going if I had acted upon it was really a way to keep me from the hurt.
After writing about it on the blog last night, which always helps the feeling become more unescapable, the hurt stirred by the warm Xmas visits was close to eruption this morning. Your response to my comment, which I read this morning, helped gently tip me into the feeling cauldron. It was meaningful to hear from you. Thanks.
When people are nice to me, it hurts. I find that I want them ideally to let me hurt, to hold me warmly and let me cry, and in this case cry my grief that Noreen is gone. After all these years of grieving, the feeling is ever deeper. Life can hurt overwhelmingly, and I’m too fragile to feel more than a little at a time. Today I’m more clear why taking care of my life and opening up to and enjoying people, alone, hurts a lot, still due to grief.
I tend not to make resolutions. I find they require willpower to stay the course, which I lack. Instead I try to listen and pay attention to what it seems like I want, then nudge myself toward that goal, leaving room for the desire to change or get stronger. I’ve been wanting a lightweight lap top computer for a couple of years. I try to talk myself out of it because of the cost and would I really use it much. I finally got one as a Christmas present to myself. It is a beautifully designed and engineered machine. I love it. It may open doors and expand my life, particularly in regards to photography. Or not. My resolution is to explore where it leads me. I would’ve whether I made the resolution or not.
January 1, 2016!!
I hope it is a great year for everyone!
Sorry you are sick Margaret. Wishing you a speedy recovery.
I liked your Boy song Larry and was quite taken with the simplicity & effectiveness of the video.
Here is a song I have been enjoying for some time now.
It is 21 Pilots – Stressed Out.
Interesting song Leslie. I wonder what is it’s relevance for you.
Hi Larry,
The main thing is that I like the music – its different and stays and plays in my head a lot.
The words ring true which I also like. Although – I do not long for the good old days at all – unless I could of course feel like I do now, back then:)
There was no Mamma singing and taking my stress away. My parents created stress and anxieties in each of their 4 children that we have all had to & have to try to minimize. That would be such a dream to have parents take care of us and things – so all we had to do was live and be the children we were and then grow up into evolved grown-ups…
A dream for most of us here.
I appreciate so much how each day (barring horrible crisis of course) feels good.
I know the other side -with dread and doom and expectations beyond what I could possibly do and loneliness and despair…
My life is filled with so much love with B, children, family and friends. I do a lot of things that I enjoy and my energy goes there usually.
It has taken a long time and still more to do – but I do love living the life I have now. I am forever grateful to Gretchen, Barry B. and Primal Therapy as I was able to get through so much crap & gain so much of myself.
That guy is still trying to contact me. He went to an emergency room Dec 23rd and then was admitted to a mental hospital, but they discharged him only a few days later. He’s been in and out so many times now that I think they don’t know what to do with him.
He thinks his calls are what’s bothering me, but that’s not it, even though I think I did make that clear.
It’s the begging, pleading, and demanding that I help him by going to visit. He is so desperate, there’s no chance that I can see, of his changing this behavior. I haven’t communicated with him for weeks now and it’s very hard having had to do that.
Phil
> no resolutions here this year..
> I feel I am already so much in a feeeling of ‘I might not make it’ continuously I don’t want to add a straw by making a resolution..
>
> feel still pretty ill right now, throat aching a lot, was sick yesterday evening, nose and eyes watering, ears hurting, one ‘relief’ is my new gym class only starts on january 15..
>
> forgot to mention the headache, ha!
> on xmas eve had a nice phone conversation though with some people in L.A., which made the idea of going over for the summer retreat more appealing, or less scary..
> off to the couch now again, took care of the cats and made myself some hot mint tea… feel too bad for studying , so all the excuses right there to grant myself a really really lazy day, just reading, listening to audio book, napping, eating something if possible, playing with cats and napping some more..
> remember how my mom used to bring us tea and fresh fruit salad and toast etc. when we were ill as kids.
> and made us get out of bed just briefly enough to change sheets and make it all nice and fresh again..
> one of her best qualities, looking after , taking care of us when ill.
> when a bit better she’d make up the couch into a cosy nest..
> ok, off now, bye
Again with the small room primal, with music, by myself. Maybe fitting, since I have been by myself my entire life. Ok, of course I should be doing some of this with people. Or maybe with my poor dachshund Sophie, who now spends her days alone in my bedroom, now that her 2 buddies are gone. Big fight yesterday with Z over what I say is her incomprehensible incomprehension of needing to not eat out so much, so that we can pay our taxes, rent, car, utilities, etc. So to see if I could make dinner at home, instead of her and the kid going out again, I bought a steak and baking potatoes home, and asked the kid if he wanted that for dinner, and he got all picky on me, and then Z has to make sure that the potatoes are organic, yes, and I was starting to feel rejected, which I rarely allow myself to feel. Now they are going to buy a $4.00 salad and snacks, which I am estimating will be at least $30. Whatever. I did not think I would get to any feelings today, because why should I? But I I did see images and faces in my mind of the many, many times I was alone, and also not alone in my childhood, and crying about my sorry, violently-abandoned, uncared-for self. As the song I listened to says, “Blue ain’t the word for the way that I feel”. There is no word for the black vacuum that I have been in my entire life, and actually no word when I was just a pre-speech baby and I was torn away from my mom and sent to live with horrible people for a while. I had a dream last night about a baby being whacked in a strange house that kept getting bigger and bigger. Whacked for crying inconsolably about where was my mommy. Kind of revved up the chain of me saying very little for the rest of my life. BB was in the dream, and we were moving into this ever-expanding house, because there were many of us, BB unpacking,, and I told him that someone had called to say that the monkeys would be delivered Wednesday or Thursday, I have no idea what significance that has, maybe the happy happy monkeys were on the way to amuse us. Anyway, I don’t know if I feel better. I can’t stand my wife anymore. I will never be happy. And the losses in my life have been too many, and it is just too fucking late. Maybe there is a slight difference after this crying. I almost had the courage to turn around at the checkout counter to look in the eyes of the woman who was behind me in line. I am petrified of young women. I feel stupid saying this of course. And I did not look. It might just be some anomaly of a different kind, that I would feel that I was a worthwhile-enough person to have the ability to do look in a stranger’s face, after so many years of feeling that I am garbage. I think the crying today allowed me to care for myself for a change. Wow, I don’t usually look at comments to any of my posts, because I am wary of being criticized, but I was trying to make sure I was on the right page, so I did see some very supportive comments. Thanks. Guru, the cunning linguist video apparently no longer exists.
Hi there Otto:
I didn’t realize the “cunning linguist” video is gone now. It’s been quite a while since I bothered checking into it, but try this clip (hope it’s properly embedded here, not sure until I post this);
Really – again Ug.
Arrested development or what?
Leslie, can you tell me why you’re seeing this as a sign of arrested development on my part?
That you would see it appropriate to re-post this ad and your phrase on this public site Ug. It shows a fascination on your part. Why not e-mail people privately who you think share your likes &/or sense of humour ?
I find it offensive and immature.
Does it increase name recognition and sales – yes because people like you promote it.
Leslie, OK thank you for posting. Even though you made your own point loud and clear I definitely have some things I could write here in response. But before I make any further explanations on the matter I must ask you: Has Barry seen this advertisement? Could you have him take a look at it and let me know his honest opinion as well? Thank you for being helpful in this regard.
Guru – I did think you might have quit while ahead on that one…………I mean the first time when you seemed to ‘get away’ with it. Anyway no skin off my nose I am not taking sides in any of this.
On another topic entirely you have sometimes complained about how the 9/11 victims get all this money. Also that seems to be somewhat ongoing I read in the papers last week how the hostages in the Iranian crises in 1979 (maybe before your time) are to get money now even though the deal specified they wouldn’t but also that under the same deal the 9/11 victims are to another almost 3 billion dollars.
A thought I had might this not make more sense IF the 9/11 event was done by our own Government? Not ‘guilt’ money as people who might do that would be strong in the ‘guilt’ department but well as a way to keep people shut up? One good way to shut people up is stuff their mouths with money maybe……….
I realize this is commonly considered ‘crack-pot theory’ but the more you delve the less ‘crack-pot’ it seems to be. Isn’t Barry (therapist) ‘famous’ for trying to puzzle out the real story of the Kennedy assassination (I might be wrong about this I know next to nothing about Barry part of PT is preserving that ‘mystique’ I think)…………anyway it seems to me 9/11 is sort of the current generations version of the Kennedy shooting so if it is ‘valid’ for Barry to wonder about that well can’t I wonder about 9/11 a much bigger and more consequential event in most ways or will I get accused of being on a ‘head trip’ lol……….or what was another one? my feeling was deemed to be ‘valid’ but my way of expressing it was found to be ‘not valid’ welcome to the wonderful and wacky world of ‘primal theory’………………
Guru – you still awake?
Patrick..
Oh wow, well….I was awaiting a response from Leslie on a totally different topic (the wine ad). I was wanting to see what her husband Barry thought of it. I’m not sure if you thought I was referring to her husband or Barry Bernfeld. I was referring to Leslie’s husband, not the therapist.
I certainly didn’t feel as though I should have “quit while I was ahead” with Leslie. I was just warming up!
Mind if I ask why you suddenly brought up the most comprehensively discussed brute force deaths since the dawn of cuneiform symbols (my best guess already being roughly 2 trillion words and utterances worldwide per casualty) while I was on a wholly different area of discussion?
This is quite a jarring derailment from a wine advertisement.
Guru,A lot of things get excessively analyzed. The response to Hillary Clinton’s slightlylong bathroom break during the last democratic debate is an example. I saw several lengthy opinion pieces on that. How it relates to the disparity between bathroom time and the number of toilets available for men and women, and on and on. And how this all relates to thehistory of feminism. Donald Trump contributed the weighty opinion that Hillary Clinton’s bathroom break was “disgusting”. It’s all good material for further debates I suppose.Phil
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 16:55:34 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Guru – I suppose without really thinking about it you were referring to Barry the therapist so that was my mistake………………about ‘quitting while ahead’ I was not thinking so much about what Leslie said just more with ‘the group’ in general, like I say I don’t have such a ‘moralistic’ attitude about stuff like you posted and I will admit I even did post it later privately to a friend for a laugh but I think that is what Leslie was referring to………..the difference between a public forum and something private. As I say I don’t want to be overly judgmental about it but well there are conventions, rules whatever in society or groups of people.
About 9/11 it feels even weird for me to be concerned or interested in this NOW. I have always been pretty much dismissive of ‘inside job’ theory but recently I find myself re-thinking it. This was ‘inspired’ most of all by Kollerstrom’s book about 7/7 the Underground bombings in London in 2005. To me he ‘proved’ or as close as possible that that WAS an ‘inside job’ and well IF it was I think that brings 9/11 back very much in consideration for the same reason. MI5, the Mossad and the CIA work very closely together and for the same world wide agenda. Also what I found very interesting he locates all of this in ‘history’ in Europe in the 1970’s and ’80’s there was a fair amount of ‘terrorism’ in Italy and Germany for example which I remember. Apparently it has now been ‘proved’ and is pretty much accepted that the Red Brigades in Italy and Baader-Meinhof in Germany far from being ‘far left’ groups had major connections to the ‘security services’ So the fear of ‘terrorism’ was stoked and specifically fear of ‘the left’…………..now the fear of ‘terrorism’ and specifically “Muslim terrorism” is stoked in the same way. His point is possibly most if not all of this ‘terrorism’ is fake and is actually done by the ‘security services’. He thinks that the Paris event is almost definitely ‘staged’ and not ‘real’………….quite possibly no one died it may well be a bunch of very well trained actors with fake blood and all the rest of it. It is possible I would say…………….some of these guys even say the same ‘actors’ have shown up now in different ‘terror events’
I am getting a bit long here……………but I find this a fascinating subject. For probably the best book on it aside from Kollerstrom’s who more covers the UK scene is a book called “Synthetic Terror 9/11 etc”) by a guy called Webster Tarpley which is written from the American perspective. This to me also is a very good book in that it goes into the politics, economics, balance of powers etc etc which might make a 9/11 ‘needed’. He does not so much dwell on all the funky stuff surrounding 9/11 though he covers some of that very well also
I have shown the video of Building 7 coming down……………..another ‘funky’ thing apparently there is a kind of universal code for a pilot to let the ground know the plane is being hi-jacked I think the code is something like “7500” but they don’t even need to type in those numbers they just have to twist a dial to that setting yet none of the 8 pilots (pilot and co-pilot in each plane) DID twist that knob. Why? Maybe they were not ‘hi-jacked’ at all or at least not by a bunch of crazy “Muslims” with pocket knives……….. but something else happened. There is lots more of course but to me this is like the ‘perfect crime’ except no crime is ever perfect…………that was Sherlock Holmes thing about the dog that did not bark in this case the pilot(s) who did not twist the knob
What is? AND what is not? “A conspiracy theory”. Is it really important to you????
Are we not served up all the time (especially by big corporation viz a viz advertising) with someone else’ idea of what IS.
The best I’m able to do is follow my gut feeling … AND … leave it at that.
AND … is all this appropriate on a feeling blog????
Jack
Guru: Quote:- “Leslie, OK thank you for posting. Even though you made your own point loud and clear I definitely have some things I could write here in response. ”
I agree here with Patrick’s response of quitting whilst you were still ahead
I would have thought it more appropriate had you just simply said what Leslie’s response DID to you … feeling wise. Then again It’s my feeling you don’t want to go there.
Jack
…and, Otto….
You said at your class reunion that you had the best coffee you ever experienced.
You’ve never tried MY personal coffee, have you? Coffee is one of the most important staples of industrialized mankind, and I want to make sure I enjoy each and every coffee drinking day to the very fullest humans can experience:
a) I only use the purest natural spring water that has been laboratory tested in a rigorous fashion to ensure that it contains absolutely none or only the slightest traces humanly possible of 17 different primary inorganic compounds, 23 secondary inorganic compounds, and more than 100 volatile organic compounds. It’s a water purity EPA testers would eagerly grant summa cum laude honors to.
b) Only two different sources used for the actual coffee beans for grinding. My personal favorite is a relatively new kind: Delicately fruity Arabica beans sourced from the highlands of Costa Rica.
c) A thorough cleansing of my coffeemaker’s internal rubber parts with a white vinegar routine at least three times per year. (each cleaning takes about an hour)
*sidenote – The spring water I use is so pure that performing the internal white vinegar cleansing is almost a superfluous exercise when done more often than on a yearly basis.
No, Otto…., I’m afraid you’ve never tried the very finest of coffee until you’ve tried the Ultimate Superstar Guru’s personal coffee. Sit next to a small quiet flame with a cup of my pure Java recipe and you will have found yourself a sturdy outpost of calm reflection that will never yield to the hackles of a world gone mad around you.
New Years Eve we had a small party at our house. It was fun and the conversation was good.
We talked. for example, about our kids, who are all in the same age group, and where they went for the evening. All the kids did have some kind of party to go to celebrate.
My friends talked about how at that age, maybe 16 to early 20’s, it was always a struggle to feel good about finding the right party to go to on New Years Eve. I have heard these same comments other years. But I never mention that there never was a party I could or would go to at that age. It just was out of the question for me.
This relates to the idea of possibly gong to my class reunion this summer. I can’t imagine going there without relating to at least some of the people the difficulties I experienced at that age. It was so bad for me that after high school graduation, over time I eventually to cut myself off from the very few friends I had, so as to forget about what I had gone through. Even if that left me with no friends at all. I imagined they wouldn’t want to continue being friends with a loser like me anyway.
What I do recall is staying home with my father to watch the ball drop in Times Square on TV. That was OK; we did have some bonding. All of this also relates to my father having nothing in his life; he actually had even less than me; not just New Years Eve but all year long. After midnight I remember going to the high school outdoor track and running at lot of laps around it. Exercise and working out was a way for me to deal with all of this. I think with all the working out I did, I added body tensions which helped hold in all the pain. Also being in good shape did help a little with confidence, and to have at least something to feel good about.
Phil
To add to what I said above; I can’t completely describe this to my wife either as it seems to reflect on something about me that I don’t want to share. Shes does know a bit of it and why I wanted to do therapy but I don’t give her the full picture.
In her case, she always had friends and there was a disco or bar to go to where young people gathered and this was true for New Years Eve as well, so she can’t quite relate to my experiences.
I still have been engaged with Facebook and exploring people I used to go to school with on there. It’s not hard. I can easily see that many people have been connected in intervening years but I haven’t. So, it still feels like being left out.
I have done this in past years as well, but now I have connected with a few more people, even if I never really knew them, I do recognize some names..
I added some photos, maybe too many. Now I’ve organized them better. I’m still learning how to use that website. It’s much better than this one for connecting with people and I am now seeing how it’s possible to target a particular audience with postings or even photos.
But it does have something to do also with showing my high school classmates that I have a life now. They don’t care, of course, but it maybe matters to me. I have been stuck with my memories of people as they were at that time, and what I went through. I could change that a little by going to a reunion and being present on Facebook I suppose. I haven’t been doing all this with that goal in mind, just kind of letting go with impulses, but maybe that could be a good result.
Also with connecting with feelings I went through then, that I’m not completely done with.
Those feelings didn’t start at that age, it’s just when when some of the worst results as far as my life occurred, so I won’t be done with it any time soon.
Phil
> Phil,
> that was interesting to read, another piece of the puzzle of your life. I could relate to some of the things, like cutting off as for me it was too painful to sense I did not really feel I fit in, and could be rejected at any moment and was probably not liked already anyway..
> it were very defensive feelings which made me set up the situation myself for a big part, acting like an outsider because feeling like one..
> the ‘observer’ was a safer kind of persona, but really I longed to feel part of things, not to feel always something was wrong with me, which soon would be revealed and was probably already clear to most..
> maybe that is why the ‘freak’ community, the tougher brand after the hippies, had so much appeal, as there it was ok to be different, it could even be regarded as a quality, and therefor it felt like a pretty safe family.. any longhaired dude would imediately attract my attention at some point..
> felt like a rookie too who had a lot to learn still, but over time became pretty streetwise…
>
> now still feeling ill, to my surprise have a fever of 38,4 degrees Celsius, kind of a high fever..
> in a strange way I notice how it has something reassuring to be ill, like finally I feel allowed not to have to be ‘strong’,…
> it is a kind of position in which one is allowed to, what, be weak, scared, need something?
> guess it is more not having to be strong, and people showing some concern..
> somehow I still feel there is some kind of trauma I have not resolved about being hurt unexpectedly for needing while needing and feeling horrible..
> it seems so beyond what I could imagine, can imagine misuderstandings and rising emotions at some point, but it is beyond me nothing really came afterwards either.
> as a dear friend of mine said recently: hey, you just lost your cat!
> I’d be compassionate , generous and leniant with anybody, certainly a friend, being in real distress..
> have to let it go, and hold on to me being different..
> my brother has big problems at work these days, might lose his job, car has been taken away, a lawsuit may follow as his boss is not keeping to his promises.
> but therefor my brother had to buy a new car, and I and mom helped him out with it as he does so much for us and might do without a car if he would not have to drive over here every week..
> he felt so good about my help, said it was really nice, and my answer came out spontaneously, ‘but I have a very nice brother too!…’
>
> it feels so good to be able to give, and it only causing more warm feelings and mutual appreciation..
>
> we are really so much closer these days than we were a few years ago, I often see the happy gorgeous little boy in him again, specially when he plays with my cats, it is so nice to hear him laugh..
> decided too I won’t put pressure on nursing home about room, mom seems not quite ready for it, so maybe it is better she gets some more time, as her opinion still varies a lot about it from moment to moment..
> could talk about it with my brother too, and about my worry for him and all the pressure on his shoulders, but he said it is ok, and added he might have a lot of free time anyway soon(without his job)
> I am glad he seems to have a good legal assistance, and remains very cool about it all, and smart at the same time.
> M
Margaret,
That’s so nice helping your brother like that and great that you are close to him and have a good relationship. Sorry you are still sick and have that high fever. I hope you are taking something for it to get some relief and get better soon.
Phil
I know i am a bitch, an asshole, a violent jerk with multiple personalites. The real me that was of 10 months of early motherly care has been buried for a whlle due to battering. I would be nice to Z if i could, but i am sure that a lot of the battering came from her, although other people might dismiss that. I meant no disrespect to my wife for I am sure she is a good person with her own horrible childhood. But if she could get dressed so we can get in the car, so she can criticize me on the way to seeing Rose floats that I care nothing about, except I was born in Pasadena and my first 10 months were near there, ok.
Going to work is very discouraging this week. My next holiday is Memorial Day at the end of May.
I’m hoping for snow, the more the better. A blizzard would do just fine to give me a few days off.
The holidays were a bit of a disappointment. Christmas Eve and Christmas Day were nice but for the rest, I’m afraid there were bad feelings between my wife and I. All I had was two long weekends for the holidays and I wanted to do was relax and have a good time. But my wife wanted to accomplish things; she makes up lists of things to do. This is a pattern we often encounter because as a teacher she has many days off.
The problem was that she even wanted to accomplish things in the middle of my wanting to relax and have a good time on my few days off. Discouraging to waste the few extra days I have off with bad feelings, which to me, could have been avoided. Oh well, these are the joys of married life; things don’t always go smoothly, or as planned.
Phil
> reading a book from a journalist travelling with several more or less famous people to their original homelands, I ran into a description of the atmosphere inside a very old small Greek orthodox chapel, the mythical kind of peacefulness etc. there.
> it reminded me of similar feelings of quietness when alone in such places without any services going on, and I momentary refelected on hthat feeling.
>
> the feeling of consolation somehow raised by it sometimes and of peaceful acceptance, a soothing kind of feeling, suddenly seemed to make some sense.
> I think somehow what it represents is an archetype of what we all need, a kind and benevolent parentlike loving and accepting and maybe above all understanding ‘person’, ‘entity’ or just projection, the mere virtual possibility of its existence , in reality or just in potential, seems so grounding in its own way, very basic in its reality of what it represents.
> we all need ideals in many ways, if only to strive towards getting nearer that kind of goal, to give us direction and a sense of something worth living and struggling for.
> a connection with what is good, in few words..
> sadly enough this great aspect gets soiled and distorted by all kinds of religious hocus-pocus, while the essence is so simple.
> a good father, a loving mother, wise, compassionate and kind, always there, relieable..
> this for me is what the heart thends to come up with when in such a peaceful silent and halfdark place, just a little candle here and there burning, nothing to do but contemplate what is there and what we want there to be
>
> or what would be there if it would be all right in a transcendent kind of way, which is just feeling in other words.
> M
> Phil,
> were you guys able to communicate eventually and work out some kind of compromise or agreement?
>
> you sounded pleased about your new year party, too bad about these bad feelings, feel sorry for you, M
Margaret,
The New Years Eve party was also OK, except for some stress getting things ready for our guests. But the rest of this past weekend was poor.
Sunday night we went out for dinner and live music, which had been planned, and hardly said more than a few words to each other.
So I’m afraid we didn’t communicate and work out some kind of compromise. I did help her accomplish one thing from her list that she couldn’t do alone. She stresses herself out with all the things she thinks she has to do. There isn’t much I can do about that except to make it clear that I don’t share those feelings of needing to get so many things done.
We are still in the process of recovering this week.
Phil
> Phil,
> I really liked the way in which Hilary said ‘I’m sorry’, her tone of voice was both funny and disarming.
>
> just called my mom, it is about 6.30 pm, she picked up the phone with her usual kind of plaintive tone of voice, probably spent the whole afternoon sleeping on the couch.
> I told her it was evening, and that it would be good to get up and eat something and watch the news before going to bed a bit later on, but she kept insisting she wanted to sleep some more first, and kept asking me then if it was morning or evening and what time it was, and despite me explaining over and over she stubbornly insisted to not wanting to get up, in a way that clearly said I do what seems best to me.
> one moment she says it is not necessary to do what I say as she knows very well what time of the day it is even if she goes back to sleep now, on the couch, the next moment she asks me what time it is.
>
> she drove me nuts, I got more and more irritated while trying to be reasonable with her about the use of following my advice as to keep some touch with normal time patterns, and to not be wide awake in the middle of the night etc.
>
> no avail, and more so because she did not want to take my advice, to my feeling, than because she could not understand, so I just ended up telling her I could only give her advice and the rest is up to her, that I want to help her but it has to come from two sides..
> I knew I overreacted slightly but on the other hand there is a lot of truth in my irritation as she is so what we call ‘ownwise’ don’t know a good translation for it.
> and the way she gives me those evasive responses like ‘it will all turn out well’ or ‘we’ll just wait and see’ did not help, she does not take me serious,not today at least.
> and then again her tone of voice triggered me once more, so I told her not to talk like some kind of victim, which for a moment seemed to snap her out of it but then turned into irritation of her, so our sentences became more brief and I told her just to make sure to eat something and to do whatever she felt like, and she actually hung up the phone so fast it was almost hanging up on me.
>
> I got off the phone cursing at her, calling her names, felt so powerless.
> had started to say to her mom htis is why it gets difficult and you should start considering.. but then I stopped myself as we would deteriorate more, but she must have gotten what I was aiming at.
>
> I think it might be better not to call her for a few days, have made sure she ate the meals my brother cooked, and well, f.. it for now,
> can’t go there anyway on saturday either, have a party to go to.
> it is not me being selfish, it just feels so useless right now, although other days it does not go like this.
> what can I do, I can’t leave her in the dumps but don’t want these kind of struggles either.
> at some point I told her to get up for a little while, put some water in her face if necessary, and then go to bed in a few hours.
> then I found out she sleeps on the couch day and nigt mostly.
> she said she sleeps very well there, but no wonder her day and night rythm gets confused.
> tried to say that too but well, all my effort felt pretty pointless and frustrating.
>
> it is a mix of genuine concern and of old struggles to be heard and listened to I guess.
> must let go of that last bit some more and leave her up to her own stuff and run into problems as maybe then she wil admit more easily it does get difficult..
>
> in any case these discussions are not good, have to try even more to avoid them, but it is like choosing between one kind of pain or the other..
>
> M
On the subject of what is appropriate on a ‘feeling blog’ here is something I recently came across by Jon Rappoport. I thought it was interesting and I agree with it pretty much in terms of psychology (including primal ?) and what it intends to do.
“To begin with, psychology, in theory and therapeutic practice, has a way, over time, of “settling in” to the society around it. With some exceptions, it more and more mirrors the values of society.
Mainline psychology considers the individual as having key relationships, and seeks to strengthen, repair, and normalize them.
This is all very well for the patient who already considers himself to be living inside fairly conventional boundaries. But when the boundaries themselves are the issue, psychology tends to waver, wobble, tap dance, and even cast doubt on the mental health of the patient, as if his challenging the limits were somehow a sign of “inner imbalance” or neurosis or misperception.
The “playing field” of society is taken as the fundamental ground of operation, and the person who is walking outside those lines, looking in, assessing what is going on, is suspect. He may “require help.”
You won’t get a psychologist to admit what I’m pointing out here, but this conformist aspect of his work has come all the way down from the early, wide-ranging, fantastical ramblings of Freud, to a comfortable and even smug, small narrative.
Why? Because psychology has been determined to establish itself as an institution within the context of society. Smallness of conception is the fate of all such efforts.”
Quote:- “To begin with, psychology, in theory and therapeutic practice, has a way, over time, of “settling in” to the society around it. With some exceptions, it more and more mirrors the values of society.”
Another quote:- “You won’t get a psychologist to admit what I’m pointing out here, but this conformist aspect of his work has come all the way down from the early, wide-ranging, fantastical ramblings of Freud, to a comfortable and even smug, small narrative.”
I am a wondering where and when you got so edificated in ‘psychology’. It’s just amazing to me that you pose yourself as such an authority on the subject. Alas, I suspect that owning a business and working 17 hours a day for almost thirty years made you exceptionally studied in psychology. For someone who’s main studies were Philosophy and English literature I suspect that makes you adiquately versed in the machinations of psychoogy. Go figure!!!!!
Jack
P. S. You really do have a knack of ‘putting your foot in your mouth’
J
Jack – you wrote the book in a manner of speaking on being an ‘expert’ on nothing, more than that you wrote an actual ‘book’…………..what I mean is you can and do ramble on about economics, philosophy, medicine, psychology of course and about anything else under the sun in your ‘book’ and yet you seem to object to me having a thought about something that is kind of a real thing for me. Also I am not even putting myself forward as some ‘expert’ I am just quoting someone with something like approval and then you quote HIM and act like it’s all my fault or something. Jeez Louiz I might check on some of the meds they are giving you.
And I notice you don’t even for a moment try to even address what HE says (NOT me) I mean I think he makes an interesting point if you could get away from the ‘ad hominem’ for a second or two to consider it. I wonder if Gretchen has any thoughts on this subject. Jack you also seem to have some weird “Upstairs/Downstairs” kind of attitude about all this I mean to you I might be a ‘mere’ mover or a ‘mere’ Irishman……………not able to play at the highest levels like yourself and Janov but well I mean I am awake and alert thank God and within my limitations of course I can have views on things. Is that ok with you? Or not? Or if not exactly why not? You give your beloved ‘primal’ a bad name with this kind of crazy defensive and really pretty much INSANE reaction. Check those meds really and either get ‘better’ ones or more promisingly get away from the one you ARE on……………….
Quote:- ” I am awake and alert thank God and within my limitations of course I can have views on things. Is that ok with you? Or not?” I am very aware that you are awake … and have often stated that in running a business you were very talented.
What I pick up on is that you state, and have also mentioned this factor of you, you come across as some authority on many matters. There is (my feeling) another way and that is to either point out that this is your opinion, or view, rather than it sounding, to me at least, like you have a PhD on the matter.
We all have views and opinons on many things; that’s part of being human, but STATING opinions as FACTS, is what, I feel, puts peoples back up against you. Sure … I admit and said so, I have opinions, views on all the subject I mentioned in my book; but I did check with several people before publishing, if I was coming across as I was some expert or other.
Just to remind you of one aspect that you took exception to in my book and that was that I did not agree with the “absolute” notion of TRUTH. One mans truth is another man’s fantacy. I feel strongly that none of us can be absolutely CERTAIN about anything … except ones feelings. That was a great insight I peronally gained from my therapy. What it did for me, particularly in argument and discussionis:- if I stated it was my feeling … that was not arguable. If on the other hand I stated it as a fact … then arguments ensuede and bandied around actually convincinf no-one, other than the “choir”.
All this is just my feeling … nothing more. I am an expert at nothing … not even database developing, as I am currently experiencing.
Jack
Speaking of ‘experts’ I like this one
BS………….(Bathchelor of Science)……………………….Bullshit
MS…………(Master of Science)…………………………..More of the Same
PhD……….(Doctor of Philosophy/Science)…………..Piled Higher and Deeper
“Youth always tries to fill the void, an old man learns to live with it.”
― Mark Z. Danielewski
> this night had an interesting dream experience, illustrating the dialectic of feeling and its effects.
> have to say first I did not call my mother yesterday,after the difficult talk we had the other day.
> it felt lonely not to do so but rationally I knew it was no big deal and I should stick to it and explore what I felt about it.
>
> so this night I had a dream about on one hand being very frustrated about my attempts to communicate with mom, and about taking distance of her, and the same kind of went on with me and my social circle in a different way.
>
> part of it was people would keep taking care of my mom, but if I stayed away from that, noone would make an active attempt to check on how I was doing,.
> one reason being everyone being busy with their own life, another one she needing that care in a very clear way, while the general idea about me being I could take care of myself.
>
> still in the dream it triggered deep and desperate sadness, feeling i could very easily end up completely isolated and really in a bad situation, as there were some real problems with my disability making things worse as well.
>
> before I would be like ‘homeless’ and totallly cut off, I returned to a place where I knew some people, to engage with them and go on.
>
> I woke up still feeling that deep sadness and despair, for some moments, but then suddenly I realized I was not in that dream now, and it was clear it was up to me to do the reaching out if I was wanting to stay engaged.
> it felt surprisingly reassuring, like I had come to terms with it somehow.
>
> looking back now it seems the old need and hope was not having to do so, to be important enough sort of, like of course a kid should be, but that hope if acted out would leave me stranded and on my own if I’d only wait to see if I would get reassured or disappointed.
>
> so whith all its sorrow it was a very useful dream, reinforcing what was already becoming clearer to me lately, the fact we have to reach out over and over ourselves, to the people we like.
> we will keep liking them if there is enough reciprocity, but even if there are periods of time where it tends to feel we initiate more, that should not be a problem,.
> that is not black and white of course, but you know what I mean, the old feeling part seems to be weeded out some more again.
>
> concerning my mom I will eventually call her, just to make sure she is ok and to connect a bit in the degree it is possible.
> try to focus on how life is for her, and to be kind to her .
> M
Margaret,
Sounds like a significant dream and the insights coming from it.
Phil
> Phil,
> yes, today I did give her a call and was able to just ask her about how she was and gently observe if she would go for a nap early afternoon she risked losing the entire day once more, and she acknowledged that was true, clearly considering the other option of going to play the piano.
> a good change from struggling, will faal back on old pattern but at least am learning how to go about things differently.
> progress, a call should give us a good feeling, today it did.
> are you still inquiring about other job options?
> M
Margaret,
That’s good it wasn’t a struggle today with your mother.
About other job options, it’s a good idea for me to look into, but I haven’t done anything more. It was a desire I expressed here that might nor might not be possible, that I should definitely put some time into exploring.
Phl
> had another ‘mom processing’ dream.
> dreamed we discussed why the car had to be taken away, and mom kept interrupting me, in the dream, which got so much to me at some point I put my hand over her nose and mouth, lightly, not really pressing or even entirely covering it, but I did notice how a tendency of violence was an impulse I had to contain.
> accidentally I somehow plucked out say two hairs of an eyebrow which made it all the more clear.
> she did not seem to bother too much, just flinched with the eyebrow thing, and I told her to let me finish my sentences and listen, listen!
> then I told her step by step that how when there was a medical contra indication to drive, she would not have been covered by her insurance in case of an accident, which would make her and us responsible.
> I had woken up halfway that explanation but as happens often to me, even while knowing being awake I am still so much in the dream situation while still half asleep I just keep talking until I have said it all.
> my cats on the back of my bed wake up then pricking up their ears and probably wonder what on earth I am saying in the middle of the night that sounds like it is so important to me!?
>
> my brother will have to deal with her alone this weekend, have a party to go to, best friends invited about 20 people, winter party, birthday party and goodbye party as they leave to a small sunny Spanish Canarian island for three months.
> lucky buggers, but will really miss them.
> M
Margaret,
That is great you have these kind of dreams with so much clarity about feelings.
Have fun at the party!
Phil
That friend of mine with a lot of problems has still been calling me every day but I don’t answer his calls. Sometimes I listen to his messages and it’s clear that he’s still desperate to meet up with me.
He mentioned that he went again to the hospital and they wouldn’t admit him. Instead they sent him to a kind of small recovery house staffed by peer specialists. I found out that a peer specialist is someone having recovered from a mental health issue who is able to give real life feedback and help to the client. Just a few classes qualifies people to apply for a state license to be a peer specialist. It’s an interesting concept but I doubt it can be of much help to my friend. His problems are severe and he needs more than that. His stay there will only be 5 days. It could be helpful for someone with fewer issues. I saw on it’s website, a peer specialist is on hand all day and night at this recovery house. They also are available to drive the client around the community, if necessary. I hope he doesn’t ask to be driven to my house.
Phil
If i was you, I’d stay clear of any kind of connection with him. Block out his phone calls if you can.
Larry,
You’re right. I did look into blocking his calls but I’m not seeing the possibility with my phone services. What I should probably also do is to not listen to anymore of his messages,
Phil
I’m thinking the same thing about not listening to his messages.
Larry,
I really appreciate your comments about this problem, What you’ve said has been consistent since I first brought it up and seems exactly right, and that has also helped me connect with a deeper feeling around this. Normally I tend to act like I don’t need any help with anything and try to figure everything out myself. But of course I do need help.
It has felt like I was just describing a situation, but today I’ve realized that it’s really more than that and I have wanted advice and help with this.
Thanks,
Phil
Imagining myself in your situation, I think if you can find the strength to shut him out it will be the best thing for both of you.
Larry – that DOES feel harsh……………not to start an ‘argument’ or anything but I dunno this kind of approach I find very disagreeable…………after all you ask (and get) a lot of ‘indulgence’ why would you so harshly – that word again – deny it to another, just another struggling human being…………..
I find it ‘dis-agreeable’ also because in my own case you have said very similar things. Lock a door and throw away the key. I don’t get why some people are to be ‘written off’ but others including yourself are endlessly sort of ‘indulged’………………..is one person’s ‘pain’ ok and another’s not…………anyway just my reaction I thought I would say it…………
I’m glad you were able to say it ‘feels’ harsh. I see it as, ah, benevolent.
I have the key right here in my desk, did you guys want it back?
Does someone have a brand new pair of roller skates?, a la Melanie (singer 1971.)
Hi Phil. Good luck with this fellow. Strange to see something like it, he truly does need residential care. Odd that he is so verbally abusive too. Hope you have a nice weekend despite the circumstance. We are with you.
S
> thanks Phil, it is a nice setting, feels safe, all friends of a friend and normally a good selection of nice people.
> they also like good food and a few drinks, smiley
> hope you have a nice weekend as well.
> M
> Phil,
> it sounds like a big cause of stress to get all these calls.
> i am probably too optimistic, but I do hope that peer support does have some positive influence, it does sound like an interesting initiative.
> it might help him not to feel like all alone with his problems and no hope.
> connecting with a peer is often easier than taking advice from a caretaker.
> typical too he does ‘need’ you to go buy his groceries, but he can bring up the motivation to go to a hospital or other help center.
> it must be hard to know about his problems and to know you can’t solve them, specially as you did have some good moments with him.
> M
Stress in that it does activate old feelings, and it’s clear to me that I can’t help and I do feel bad about that. Phil
My Christmas break with family and friends was meaningful and fun. I cherish the memory of it. Now back home in my life of relatively more solitude, I feel more unhappy and my life feels more hollow. The past week I’ve been grieving, for what I had with Noreen, and for what I should have but never had with my parents and never will now that they are gone but the unmet need of them is there, still needing to be met. Hurt, hurt, …I keep opening up to more hurt.
The picture below is a scene from near Lumsden, SK, that someone entered in a photography contest. I imagine being at the scene, and scenes like it in my past, with Noreen, soaking up and enthralled by the beauty that leads us into the future, me perhaps inspired to capture the scene in a photograph.
Then I imagine being at such a scene and trying to absorb the beauty, now, without Noreen, and I cry. And my parents are gone now too. I no longer have the possibility there might be a breakthrough finally between them and me. I am alone again, as I was through the first decades of my life. I need more than what I had then and what I have now. And I miss what I had with Noreen. I cry and cry. Can’t hep it. The past hurt. The present hurts. The future will hurt I’m sure. Hurt is what I know best.
In my imagining of being at the scene alone I recoil from the beauty and the future. Emptiness now, hurt of loss, overwhelms…supplants joy for life. It feels natural to, but I try not to recoil into numbness. I imagine being at the scene trying to let in beauty, but I cry, alone, for what should have been but never was, and for what was precious but is lost. I say good-bye, and cry more for what I can never recover. Life made me alone, against which I struggle while at the same time perpetuate. Life hurt me badly. Why?
http://dreamlocal.upickem.net/engine/Details.aspx?p=V&c=178793&s=78346685&i=1&sort=#SD
Larry: I know that you were trying to say something else entirely, but I have to be a critic here….
The color of that pic is nice, but the train tracks throw me off. It conveys a sense of danger as yet to be seen (train coming!). A sense of urban workings running roughshod over the workings of nature. Also, it would be all too easy for someone to lay his neck across one of the rails in a state of existential despair…and wait.
Have you seen this one?
http://www.ago.net/alex-colville
Too much horsepower!
> the idea of cutting all interactions forever onesidedly raises some mixed feelings in me as well.
> certainly placing myself in the guys shoes, the dreadful idea of the utter indifference, the utter back turned on me, daddy’s back, or maybe even momy’s ..
> the utter rejection, the utter ‘you have been so wrong you spoiled it forever’
> I am not expressing any opinion about this concrete situation, might even agree it is better to drew a line.
> but it does trigger that most horrible feeling of being disposable.
> or reminds me of it..
> one good thing is just got a mail from brother, who will visit mom alone today. he syas he called her yesterday evening, and she was ok, and that she is really getting old, but can still be very sweet.
> that was good to hear, good he feels like that, there are good moments between them, it will enable me to risk making myself vulnerable again too and allowing those good moments to happen.
> will give her a call soon and aim for just a nice chat.
> M
This guy tried to call me maybe 8 times yesterday, also some text messages and voice mails.
Late at night he tried to call from a different number to elude caller ID,
I feel really harassed. It was a big mistake for me ever to get involved. He is a good guy but
mental illness has totally taken over his life and I can’t help with that. It’s easy for me to see why his own family has cut him off.
Phil
No feelings. No desire to say much. I got a haggard old key and am always looking for brand new roller skates that I can’t have and even if I could have, my key wouldn’t fit. Did you know that roller skaters are by far the least hoarders of all of the human race. They don’t hoard, they steal potatoes from other hoarders so they can put them in the rink so they can run into them and then fall on their butts. I can’t think of neither a sad, nor a funny thing to say.
Blog’s rather ‘quiet’ I thought of a few things to say here and there but decided against’ it………………would probably have been found to be ‘in my head’ or ‘foot in my mouth’ or ‘missing the point’ in any case something WRONG I am and would be doing and of course I would be ‘quoted back’………….what a nice friendly supportive and accepting atmosphere and all ‘administered’ by the ‘philosopher of primal’ PR man himself………………kind of bad PR for primal though if you think oops I mean ‘feel’ about it……………
Quote: “I thought of a few things to say here and there but decided against’ it” Then why continue???? or are you subliminally trying to say something from deep within that THINKING brain aka head tripping.
You don’t seem to get it … then wonder why you felt you wasted time and money coming over here … yeah!!!!
Jack
Always keen to tag a ‘failure’ on someone else (me)…………..that way you can feel like a ‘success’ I suppose………………you are not called PR man for nothing…………….
I wanted to say something about David Bowie’s dying……………but truthfully though I liked a lot of his music emotionally it does not grab me much. This that I just heard on the radio does though………………….I didn’t even know it was Roger Daltry that sang this………..
THIS was/is one David Bowie song that has an ’emotional’ thing about it “the terror of knowing/what this world is about/watching some good friends/screaming let me out…………………keep coming up with love/but it’s so slashed and torn/
I can see why those songs might grab you.
Thanks Larry.
> hm, something seems to rmind me of the Laurel and Hardy show here..
> M
Their routine still needs some work.
Phil
> Phil,
> too true.
> M
Maybe they can add a song and dance number.
S
Yes, maybe a musical comedy that could have audiences screaming.
Phil
Jack (to my mind) just adds PR……………..for a good show a bit of ‘substance’ is needed PR is only a part even if a part he has mastered)
It’s obvious that, that resides only in YOUR MIND. Maybe that is the only thing I ever mastered, but other than running a business what else have you mastered??????
My feeling: not much and you sure failed in you opposite sex relationships … seemingly.
Javk the PR man to you.
Margaret – is that you and your cat(s) or you and your Mom, maybe we all have dysfunctional relationships……………….
> hi Sylvia!
> nice to hear you again.
> just have to write about my cats for a moment, as they are so endearing.
> they got a bit of a fright this afternoon when the guys renovatin the floor above me dropped a huge piece of rubble on the roof of my balconee just when I passed there with the cats.
> one of them hid for the rest of the afternoon.
> now peace has returned, I cuddled and reassured them and right now the big one is napping on the chimney, above the gas fire, all stretched out, two paws and a tail dangling over the edge to soak up more of the heat.
> he is so big almost the entire chimney is filled with his silky white belly and his stretched out legs and big head. a very peaceful sight, wish I had already an I-phone so I could try and take a picture.
> also the other one is being very ‘picturesque’, he is napping on the couch, his upper body turned sideways, but on his back, and his lower part flat on his back with his legs white open showing also his snowwwhite silky belly, feet spread against the back of the couch.
> a real picture of relaxation and wellbeing, smiley.
> they are so very cute and endearing and funny and just writing about them makes me smile!
> M
Hi Margaret.
The visions of your happy cats are heartwarming. Wouldn’t it be nice if we all were so carefree, minus the worker’s rumblings, of course. Male cats do have that sense of confidence about them, don’t they.
My Kitty is spending lots of time indoors with all the rain. She is pretty good at taking over the little dog’s spots. He licks her ears and they are compatible until she wants to love-bite him on the neck. They are older, but they still chase each other around the couch. I know they are happy when they do that. Makes me happy too.
Hey, Otto. Hang in there. Hope work lets up and you and your family take care.
S
War and Peace BBC. that’s ok. Can’t watch the House series one more time. Z had chest pains, went to hospital for one day. She ok. for now. work is grueling. having my dogs put to sleep was gruesome. do they still have friday group?
> day started off a bit chaotic and distressing yesterday.
> cleaning lady called me to say mom was not feeling well and also said she had found some hidden pills somewhere.
> to make long story short, I did warn the nurses service they had to be extra vigilant as to mom taking the medication while they saw it, not easy while she tells them every day not to come back..
> warned doctor as well and he will go by today.
> did not have to go there as by noon mom seemed to be feeling better.
> she is stubborn like a mule, I just hung up the phone on her the other day when she was going on about not wanting the nurse and the medication.
> very nice cleaning lady agrees she is deteriorating fast and a home should be opportune soon.
> male nurse sent text message to let me know he has a good personal interaction with mom despite everything.
> also cleaning lady is very fond of her.
>
> went to condition and gymnastic class for first time yesterday, feeling a bit apprehensive, but hey, it went very well, 23 young seniors and a very varied kind of training, building up to sweating level slowly, partly with music, then teacher came to stand right before me so I could see his moves and knew what to do.
> felt really good to be exercising and today feels good to have a lot of sore muscles!!
> feels like a surprising good training in only one hour.
> could find one couple that wanted to join me for a drink afterwards, hopefully some others will follow our example the next time and join us.
> look forward to running around the athletic field there when the weather becomes better in spring.
> can see just enough to do so once I am there, following the inner track next to the grass as a lead.
> it was nice to feel despite having a bad knee and ankle from my judo time, I am still pretty good at the exercises and specially the coordination of movements.
> balance not so good anymore but one finger against wall solves that issue.
> amazing how good it feels to exercise and have exercised, in such a fun way too, as I find normal gym training on training machines extremely boring, this is much better.
> glad I did join up!!!
> M
War and Peace is over. I ran through the many bbc episodes on youtube the way I run through sex and eating. I just want to get to the end as quick as possible. Well, I am still eating, but sex is becoming a distant memory. Scientist kid is here 3 days now, and both him and Lady Z are driving me crazy. Kid crashed on his secret motorcycle and broke nothing but skin, but wanted to stay with us to be taken care of. Then this aa kid had to have vicodin because the pain is so bad, but he is high on it, and I fear for his many years of sobriety. I don’t want to be around them, and pretty much no one. I am somewhat fine if I don’t look, in the mirror and see my 64year old dead face. I am dead already, dead dead dead, and there is not much I can do about it. I listened to Emmy Lou Harris singing Movling On, over and over in BB’s little room at PI. A few tears about loss, but not really much feeling at all. I wish I could get the energy that Emmy Lou brings to this song. I had hope long ago that I could break free of my paralysis and energize, like I said that was long long ago. Can’t bring myself to make an appointment for a session, just don’t have the will. Black cat constantly meowls because he can’t go outside, but I don’t need to pay another 2,500 for a tail amputation or such, because he is too heavy to clear dangerous objects. Didn’t have 2,500 anyway, just drowning in debt. So this cat requires petting all the time now, and I do it, sometimes I don’t feel like doing it. When he howls I say shut the fuck up, because I am a nasty old shit. January. There is nothing to look forward to. Next Saturday I will have to move computers at work because I desperately need some overtime. I hate moving computers when the other younger guys work with me. They do it faster and confuse the fuck out of me. They don’t do it according to my method, and my method is bullshit anyways. Saw the Rose floats last weekend with Lady Z. Meaningless to me. I want to dance to Emmy Lou’s vigorous beat, but I never will. I am fucking dead. It is all over. I will get up tomorrow morning, eat some mcdonalds, drink my coffee, walk Sophie around the lake, look at the cagey ducks and fart birds, hoping to see a pretty woman walking or jogging, glad that it is not an inferno for a month or so now, but knowing that the inferno will be back, soon enough. That will be the highlight of my day. Then I will be expected to do stuff for others, and I don’t want to do a fucking thing for others. I want my remaining time on this shithole planet for myself, and yet that is an impossibility. Shit after shit keeps happening. Can’t even cry about it. I hate January. I hated the ending of War and Peace. I hate endings where they go a few years in the future and everyone is older, and there are kids and such. I saw a clip on youtube of the 1952 War and Peace, with Audry Hepborn and Henry Fonda. There was more feeling in that one clip than in the entire 20 episodes of the bbc version. But I cant figure out how to get ahold of that version. I have not been inside a blockbuster in years and the dvd player is lost in the mouse-ridden garage anyways. They used to show those old movies on TV for free, but now you pay a bunch of money to see crap on cable, and they have commercials too. What a fucking joke. Well, fuck me. I found it on Amazon for 10bucks. So screw the fish oil, I would rather have this movie. I will treasure it and hoard it forever.
Audry Hepburn. Such beautiful energy! Well I rented it. This will be better than any outer space movie ever made.
> woke up this morning with a call from a nurse , who had today’s duty of going by my mom and making sure she takes her medication.
> she said mom did refuse to take it, and if I could come over maybe?
> I told her to give me my mom on the phone,, while I heard my mom angrily telling her not to mix in her daughter with this..
> I tried to gently remind mom of the doctor visit of the day before, in which he told her again it was important to take her midication.
> she did not remember, but luckily when I told her just to accept my word for it, she started calming down, after some muttered questions about the why and what for of the medication, she promised me to take it.
> not a pleasant start of the day, but of course it would have been much worse if she had not listened to me.
>
> at lunchtime I reminded her of the fresh meal in her fridge, and of the antibiotics she started yesterday for her ear infection, but she could not find them anymore.
> just left it there as it is not a heavy duty kind of antibiotics, more like a strong dose of vitamin C and for her not such a big deal if she messes up the dose.
>
> found out the best way to keep my stress level to an acceptable degree today was to keep stydying..
> did do a lot, but there remains a lot as well of this difficult course, which is still very interesting though.
> coming to the part of cva’s and various forms of dementia caused by different forms of damage.
>
> muscles all sore still of gymnastics on friday, specially legs, feels very good!
>
> freezing but synny here today, and coming days.
> had hoped for some snow but not here despite weather forecasts.
>
>
> Otto, it is painful often to read your comments.
> it seems to trigger mixed feelings in me, feelings of some concern but also feelings of wanting to shake you or even kick your ass to make you find some things you enjoy doing, get up and work at it, but probably that reaction shows there are similar issues at play there for me.
> usually those kinds of reactions show me I need to look at myself and more specifically to something I don’t really like looking at.
> also feel sorry for that poor cat that wants to go out, if it is too heavy staying indoors won’t help much will it?
> and well, sorry, to let it all out, for a year you regretted not being able to have therapy, and now when you can have a session you don’t book one??
> sounds like signals of depression, I know, but it triggers me as it reminds me of how I need to keep fighting not to go that way, with varying success.
>
> already feel after one go how the pleasant kind of exercise feels very helpful to feel my body is enjoyable instead of just getting older and squeakier.
>
> I also wonder if you have such a hard time with your wife, why on earth do you stay together, or is there something good after all??
> it is good you write about it all here, so please don’t let me stop you, am just letting out some of my reactions, and also hope you will find some ways to some more good feelings.
> if you like walking around the lake, maybe if you can do it twice a day, sorry, if this is not helpful, just find it hard to read all the negative stuff and not much positive..
> I know you can get to feelings, so hope you can go for it, wish you the best,
> M e
Things have improved here since I made a bunch of complaints to my wife about how things went over the holidays and afterwards. She was speechless. What happens is we can easily fall into a pattern of not communicating. Over the years, that has been our worst problem.
Things were still bad though. It wasn’t until a few days later when I offered to listen to her responses and complaints about me and promised to stay quiet that we started to get a good improvement. She declined doing that because she said it would only make things worse. But since that day things have been much better and are now back to where I want and expect them to be between us.
My job is still boring and discouraging, however, and I should work on that, but it is a difficult problem. Not much I can realistically do. My youngest son is in college and we have to handle that and avoid having him left with huge loans to pay later on.
I am at the gym everyday playing racquetball. I have a lot of fun with that and have gotten into great shape. It probably has become another way to avoid feelings by diverting and burning off their energy, but that’s OK.
Phil
> Phil,
> good to hear you managed to sort out things between you and your wife.
> and the racket ball sounds healthy in several ways, specially for being fun, smiley.
> M
what a love, natasha and andre (war and peace). and of course, something usually mucks it up
I spent a lot of my childhood sundays, watching old movies after church. somewhat alone, as my grandmother had to clean clean clean. it’s ok.
or we would go to the cemetery, to “see” my mother and father. Or go out to eat, with my favorite aunt and uncle. now Lady Z wants me to go out to eat with her and motorcycle kid. I don’t want to; their energy is too hard for me to take sometimes. I did my first round of exercise on the squeaky tony little in my bedroom. I have to lose all the holiday weight before I can face the dietician and the endocrinologist. The cats and dogs are sleeping, it is nice outside, but i can look out my bedroom door into the backyard if i want to enjoy the weather. I will driink a cup of tea and then do some work. Lady Z will feel rejected that i dont go out to eat with her and kid. Well I will watch tv tonight with them and get a little chinese food, but I don’t want to watch their favorite prison and pawn shop shows.
David Bowie, the Who, Queen. They each have a song that touches me emotionally, but I can’t think of one of them right now. Don’t get fooled again–what truth and bombastic energy! the david bowie/john lennon song, cant recall the title, i like he blend of their voices.
My home feels emppty.
empty
So fucking depressed and paralyzed, almost impossible to do anything. And yet some of it i will do.
> Otto,
> way to go. M
deluded piece of shit. little asshole. human garbage. why do these phrases come to mind as i am waking up. turning my hatred of everyone towards myself. i don’t know what i was dreaming, must have been a doozie. back to work today to deal with all the people that i see as assholes. They probably aren’t, but someone did give me that world view early on.
thanks m. thanks blog.
> Otto,
> and thanks to you for responding , and even in a nice way, I was afraid I might piss you off, glad that was not the case.
> it seems very good you are able to consider the possibility those people on your work aren’t all assholes, that is already very good, some people would never even be able to admit that notion to themselves.
> it opens a lot of possibilities.
> M
>
> ps sounds like a very unpleasant way to wake up.
> I tend to feel like a loser or like not being able to cope, with whatever dreadful disaster that might be about to happen.
> it seems to be getting slightly easier lately.
> of course my lovely cats help to cheer me up as usually one of them comes to lay on top of me at my first sound or move, purring and putting his soft paws on my face in a very gentle kind of way.
> hard to be completely hopeless like that.
Gretchen has posted a new blank page for comments.
Here’s the bookmark URL:
On Thursday I fly to LA. As usual, a part of me is pretty keen on seeing everyone and having the retreat experience. But another big part of me is dreading going. Even though it’s becoming easier and easier for me to be with people, I still have a ways to go to get better, and even though there are so many nice people at the retreat whose company I enjoy, I have to keep bracing against a big empty hole that keeps growing in me while I’m there with them.
I’ve been thinking how it will all be over too soon and I will be back home alone again and everyone will be far away and forget me, so what’s to get excited about. Then I recognized there is an old feeling there from when my parents left me to live at my aunt and uncle’s when I was 1 ½ until I was 4. They came to visit me, but for so many years never took me back to live with them, and with always being disappointed I stopped letting myself get excited to see them. I stopped hoping they would take me home. I stopped feeling that I belonged to them or that they cared.
By the time when I was 4 and I was brought back home to live, I had withdrawn from letting myself get emotionally involved with them. But I had become emotionally shut down from everyone, even my siblings. I never could let myself get more than superficially attached to them, at least not until I started therapy. All that time I unconsciously tried to not let myself see how alone I was.
More and more I’m feeling how alone I’ve been. Here I am now many decades later, supposedly grown up and able to take care of myself and do what it takes to meet my needs. But even after all these decades there is an enormous dark hollow in me that I run from feeling, and I still to some large degree wall myself off from people to protect myself from feeling that ancient hollow. At the retreat I find it difficult being on that fine edge of wanting to be with people and wanting to run from them.
Anyway, I’m going and I’ll work at the retreat experience because it’s good for me. Overall it’s always been a good experience, and a very unique and precious one.
Still I dread going.
Too much reality. All the people suffering and being killed in Allepo right now. Sometimes feels like it’s happening practically next door. Worn out today. Very low vitality. Low interest in life. Work has been the central agenda of my life for the past 30 years. I don’t think life without it in retirement will be easy. Tonight I don’t feel it will be possible. In retirement I might stay home and become a lonely recluse and wither away.
Feel very alone. My boss retired a year ago. Yet she volunteers her time to help the biologist and I get the field work done. She and I did our last field trip together yesterday, harvesting some long distant field plots. 13 hours together, outdoors at the field site and in the truck hauling trailer and combine to and between field sites and back home again, just me and her from 7 am to 8 pm. I enjoyed the day. The weather was nice. I enjoyed the work challenge. I like working outdoors when I’m not working alone. For that reason I appreciated her company. Because she’s technically not my boss anymore, and because I’ve grown emotionally, I don’t defer to her so much and let her boss me around so much as I used to. Because she’s not my boss anymore, she kind of steps back and lets me do my thing, without butting in so much, because she appreciates I know what I’m doing and do it well. We struggle less in our working relationship. Because I understand her psyche, I listen to her respectfully and allow her room to be her self, kind of caring about this person who is getting older and more frail now and who has been pivotal to the last two decades of my life. In the beginning of our work relationship 20 years ago when I was so shy and anxious, in a way she was like a Mother, supporting me and showing confidence in me to get the job done. In reality she had no choice but to work with me and hope for the best. I know back then a lot of technicians wouldn’t want to work with her. I realized I am grateful for the structure that working for her gave my life, and how lucky I am that I could make my living in research and had the opportunity to work outdoors and to have much variety on my job and the freedom to make independent decisions. There is some routine drudgery in my job, but not most of the time.
Pretty soon the working full time part of my life will be over and I’m afraid of the unknown ahead. Tonight she texted me about what her day was like today and asked how was mine. What’s that about?! Ours has always been a working relationship, not social. I’m uncomfortable with starting a social connection with my boss that was never there before, yet when I retire I’m afraid of losing that daily connection with my workplace community. She seems to want to stay in touch. I don’t know what to make of it. She has children and grandchildren, and work colleagues who are friends who she makes her life with, and a hobby farm and neighbours that she enjoys and a house in the City. In comparison I have so little. So very little. So crippled and stunted is my life. I feel I’m barely hanging on, barely tied to reality as it is. If I lived in Allepo I have so few anchors I’d long ago be carreening over the edge.
Where are the people who would be grounding me? Why do I feel I’m an island separate from everyone. Will I always feel like an outcast, and just have to live with it, and always have to fight to not actually BE an outcast?
I hope a good sleep tonight will put me in a better perspective tomorrow, and more able to address my fears.
Hi Larry
Just re-read your posting of the 30th of September.
Very deep, very sad and full of despair. That’s the way I read it, anyway.
It is poignant how early deprevation casts such a long shadow across your life in the present.
I can report to you that I suffer from a similar afflection. I’m lying in bed sick, contemplating what to do, work wise, for the rest of my life. I’d like to make more money, but I’m held back starting any kind of business venture, as everything I touched in the past, turned to ruin.
A reflection of my past, to struggle, and then not succeed, after all. But the if I give up the struggle, I die. Talking about being between a rock and a hard place.
Enough about me.
As far as your ex boss is concerned, if she reached out to you, take it a step further. Maybe she knows where you’re at. And maybe she has a heart, after all.
Tom
In the last hour I composed a reply to your comment Tom, but darn WordPress failed to post it and then lost much of the text. It’s late and I have to make my dinner. I will try to reconjure my reply later.
> hi Tom, long time no hear!
> how was your trip to Europe??
> is something wrong with my mail or is the blog suddenly quiet??
> after Tom’s comment didn’t seem to get anything , or was Sylvia’s comment after his, am not sure..
> had a bit of a tense morning, central heating broke down, called the main installer but he h
> answered the phone from Uzbekistan. really.
> he sent his workmate though who came by and arranged things two hours later, to my great relief as it is getting pretty cold here..
> M
I saw a shocking car accident this morning. I came to a stop at a red light on a three lane busy road. The light had already been red for 2 or 3 seconds but a car in the left lane next to me went by fast and through the red light hitting a car making a left turn in front of me. Both cars were badly damaged and the driver of the car making the turn was bleeding from some cuts on his face. I got out of my car to help but two other people had gotten their first. That guy seemed to be OK but shook up. The other driver was on his cell phone calling for police and an ambulance.
he was fine, but I never saw him approach the car he had hit after the accident.
He was the one clearly at fault having gone through the red light. Lucky that no one was in the front passenger seat of that car, as it was really smashed in. Would have been a very serous injury or fatal.
I went back to my car, because I had left it in the way of traffic. I left as there didn’t seem to be a good place to park, and I had to go to work.
But then on the way, I was feeling guilty like I should have stayed, maybe to a make a statement as a witness. I had already gotten on the highway so it was too late to go back. The two people there had also witnessed it, but it left me feeling discouraged for not doing my part.
Phil
> phil,
> maybe if you call the police you could ask if they have enough witnesses and let them know you were there?
> that is what I would do to get it off my system.
> you could just leave your number in case the victim needs it .
> M
So Jarring, Phil to witness and be so close to the terrible accident. Seems you had no choice to stay if there was no safe parking. If you doubt that the person responsible for the accident was not seen by the other witnesses you could leave your phone number with the hi-way patrol dept. I would imagine. Don’t know if there are public records of accidents that you could look up on internet.
Don’t we sometimes think there is more that we could have done–when really we do the best that should be done at the time but later doubt ourselves.
Glad you are safe.
Margaret,
Good suggestion. it occurred to me but I had thought my report would be of no value since I didn’t wait for the police to arrive.
But I called them just now and gave my information, and that does feel better.
Phil
I have a request for the blog participants: Could we carry this conversation forward on the Jack’s cure page 3 again? This page is much harder to load with over 1,100 entries while the newest page still has breathing room (500-600 entries). Thank you.
This is not a comment. Need to take the opportunity to say how much I miss Art and how sad it was to hear of his death over here in England. Well, Art could not have given more! Would like to hear from the “Class of 1982-85”.
Grattan: I started at Cotner in 1981. Though I never actually saw Art working in Group I too was shocked and sad when I heard of his death, and still find it hard to realise he’s no longer with us. I still think of Art often and was mainly sad that he never lived to get the accolade I felt he deserved. I just hope he knew that his therapy and theory would live on; at least until it becomes unnecessary to give the therapy to anyone since we now know how to prevent the damage … thanks to Art.
I don’t know how or when, but I sense his work will get revived again in the future, and I sure hope soon; as I see humankind committing suicide with all the current mayhem happening around the globe.
It becomes easy to classify it all as neurosis for those of us in the Primal community, but there seems little chance that anyone anywhere is acknowledging Primal theory to prevent it from occurring to the children not yet born. I find that the saddest of all.
I could well argue that my life is now on the last lap, and I have no children or grandchildren to worry about. However, being who I am I can’t see my way to just accepting it and living out the rest of my time, even to the point of thinking and hoping, “I’ll leave that to others to deal with”.
I’d like to see and read more of you Grattan, and how after therapy you are getting on in life.
Jack
Grattan: I didn’t realise until later that you made this post on an old post “Remembering Summer part 4” Since then, there have been several new posts and the latest is:- Why am I in therapy? Nothing so horrific happened to me. By Joanna page 2. the address being:- https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/why-am-i-in-therapy-nothing-so-horrific-happened-to-me-by-joanna-page-2/?replytocom=41810#respond.
I am not sure if you are aware of this, so! I’m posting it here for you. I posted my reply to you at that old posting, but I hope you are able to update it for yourself. I would love to hear more from you, being a fellow Englishman.
Jack
Grattan: Correction; I should have said Colby, not Coner.
Jack
talking about the future of primal ideas and therapy, I just ran into an interesting book.
it is originally written in Dutch,’de mythe van de gelukkige kindertijd’, or ‘the myth of the happy childhood’, written by Gabby Stroecken and Rien Verdoodt.
I read the summary of the contents and it reflects entirely the theories and principles of Primal theory, worded with different terms but seemingly thorough and accurate, and very accessible.
they mostly talk about the inner child, and give various examples of ways that child can be damaged.
I tried to find the bibliography , which figures at the end of the book, but in the audio version I have it was not included.
I contacted the audio library asking them if there was any way to send it to me for example in a scanned PDF format.
in the introduction I read so far, the first quote was one of Alice Miller.
now I am also curious if you, Gretchen, or Barry know one of the authors as formal primal patients.
they seem to have degrees in psychology and in any case, it seems hopeful primal ideas find their way into the field even if it is in a different form.
at first sight this seems a very well written book, and I hope I will find out soon whether they give credit to Primal Therapy as well.
M