Remembering Summer part 5

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1,161 Responses to Remembering Summer part 5

  1. jack says:

    I’m surprise to be the first comment. I would have thought others would have beaten me to it.


  2. Dave F Hardy says:

    Bonjour, malowlaiqn,, first time I’ve been copied in months, and attempts to log on was denied consistently. Thought I’d been excommunicated…. happy new year;best thoughts….

    • Phil says:

      David, happy new year. I don’t think you need to be logged on to participate here. I had wondered what happened to you and thought maybe you got fed up with us.

  3. Margaret says:


  4. Anonymous says:

    I tend to avoid checking in on the Primal Institute blogs. It seems the blogs are more the “Jack and Patrick blog,” rather than the Primal blog.

    • Patrick says:

      I’d like to think I have dropped out of that particular madness though then again I have thought that before…………………..still I’d be more ‘impressed’ if you would use your name. It seems also though I could be wrong your ‘gravatar’ is the same as the ‘Will Graham” one (and mine for whatever reason) I don’t have the ‘energy’ to look into that any further.I really don’t like that kind of deviousness. If you have something worth saying you should be able to attach your name to it. That kind of ‘precious’ attitude pisses me off maybe keep it for some kind of ‘secret santas’ at retreats. It has a kind of ‘Zionist’ feeling to it…………….annoying………….

      • Patrick says:

        Can you say your name now……………….now that you have been ‘called out’…………..probably not……………..fucking annoying…………….

    • jack says:

      I too would never want to be anonymous, but then that could be deemed another fault. So be it But if you think about it using a pseudonym is also a form of anonymity. A sort of hiding behind something or other psychologically.

      Interesting that the blog was seen as the “Jack and Patrick” blog, which in a way sort of is dismissive of the other bloggers, many of which I find very feeling-full. That’s a pity.

      However is someone wishes to remain anonymous I can accept that.


      • Patrick says:

        It’s a pity all right. And something you have had a lot to do with with all your ‘quoting back’ Like some demented school teacher without a school………………endlessly ‘grading papers’ and in my case at least pretty much always giving me an “F”. Or even if not always an “F” then a “B” or a “C” or whatever based on MORE ‘judgments’. What a crazy waste of time and also a total refutation of your own ‘theories’. Where ‘theoretically’ NOTHING is ‘judged’ ………….except in reality EVERYTHING is ‘judged’. Right there as in ‘primal’ in general is the vast difference between ‘theory’ and ‘reality’ You are not alone in this of course…………….it goes or comes all the way to/from the top. Just look at the vast difference between Janov’s ‘theories’ and the mostly sad and useless ‘reality’. Something he has never seemed to grapple with just keep on going like a Communist or Zionist ‘philosopher’ insist on his own certainties all going to some ‘agenda’ nobody seems to know, except some ‘elite’ somewhere. Jack you have tried to put yourself in that elite but I don’t see you sitting around the table when he talks about ‘his people’.You are a well known character in history a fanatic on behalf of beliefs he does not understand………………

        • Jack says:

          I accept your critisismm of me and do look into most of it, BUT I do feel a lack of it for yourself. Talking of being judgmental there are a whole host of them in just this one comment … without any back-up I might add. 1) “like some demented school teacher, without a school.” 2) “giving me an “F”. Or even if not always an “F” then a “B” or a “C” or whatever based on MORE ‘judgments’.” 3) “Right there as in ‘primal’ in general is the vast difference between ‘theory’ and ‘reality’ ” 4) “it goes or comes all the way to/from the top. Just look at the vast difference between Janov’s ‘theories’ and the mostly sad and useless ‘reality’” 5) “to grapple with just keep on going like a Communist or Zionist ‘philosopher’ ” 6) “Jack you have tried to put yourself in that elite “. Have I; what elite would that be … that I might wish to be in with????? My own feeling is that I have little desire to be a member of any elite.

          I came from the dregs of Lancashire and though I got away from that county and now country have no desire to go back there, but am very aware I am still imbued with what I got born into. As for being a fanatic … yes, you are quite right … but is this a bit of the kettle calling the frying pan black?????

          All I am left with is to make the best of what I have left of life. My own feeling is that considering the place I was born into, I feel I got quite a lot out of life. Most of it pure luck. Hope that gives you more to play with in the assumed “Jack and pony show”, presumably entertaining for some.


  5. Patrick says:

    Maybe some of the ‘computer savvy’ people could look into or speculate about this. But it seems WHENEVER anybody comes on here as ‘Anonymous’ their ‘gravatar’ is always the same and that is ‘whomever’ they are. Now what’s even more strange is that ‘gravatar’ is ALSO the same as mine.

    Almost enough to make one paranoid…………..I picture Barry playing some kind of mind trick on me or maybe worse putting some kind of ‘spell’ on me. Like the Communists or Zionists (same difference mostly) would declare someone who they did not agree with a ‘non person’……… I a ‘non person’ or an ‘anonymous’ person . Well only he could answer that and that is not his strong department. Let’s see maybe this time…………………going going gone………….

    • Barry gave me a real mean, deliberately prolonged squint (at least 30 seconds) while he was admitting everybody at Atty’s desk one night just before big group started. I think he was playing a mind game with me when that happened, too. I suspect he was playing fun with my debilitating paranoia about everybody criticizing me or poking fun of me. A real tough New Yorker squint I can laugh about now.

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – I have been reading about the ‘evil eye’ that’s no fun. Mostly I do not tend towards the paranoid at all so usually that’s water off a duck’s back to me. But as I get more ‘sensitive’ or maybe more ‘paranoid’ or some would say as my defenses are lowered I find myself more affected by stuff like that. I really don’t get a friendly feeling from Barry but then again a lot of people would say I have it coming……………

  6. Margaret says:

    > had an awful dream last night.
    > went into some kind of underground tunnel, full of sand and dust, when all of a sudden a man appeared out of the shadows and immediately overpowered me and pinned me down on the floor.
    > he was filthy with his naked upper body covered with sand and dust, and I felt terrified.
    > I yelled at the top of my lungs for help but knew at the same time noone would hear me and even if they did they would not be in time to save me.
    > that was pure horror.
    > then while the man pinned me on the floor with his weight, I felt how he had a nife in his right hand and slowly stabbed it into my belly under my left ribs.
    > then I knew for sure I was about to die, and all that came up in that brief moment was a silent but intense ‘goodbye’, to everyone I cared about , as a last reaching out for connection..
    > I woke up breathing fast in short gasps.
    > can only speculate what this was about, the feeling being fear of dying, acutely.
    > another dream later on that same night was luckily more pleasant, about a scruffy bearded guy not at all my type, but hey, in this dream we started kissing and haha, it was great anyway..
    > M

  7. Phil says:

    What a terrible dream! Good that the second one was pleasant.
    I had a dream too, that I only vaguely remember. It was a standard dream I have
    about pets overpopulating. It can be guinea pigs, turtles, fish, dogs etc. It is always
    one type of pet per dream and what happens is they multiply to a shocking degree.
    As a child I had pets, guinea pigs, for example,
    and they did reproduce, but we then separated the males and females.
    The dream could be because I was left alone with the care of pets and didn’t always
    do a top notch job, unlike typically what happens when the parent takes over.
    Yet that doesn’t explain why I would regularly have this type dream.

  8. Patrick says:

    This ‘anonymous’ thing bothers me and I wonder as I say if any of the ‘computer savvy’ people here have any kind of explanation as to why the gravatar for ANY ‘anonymous’ is the same (well I suppose that makes sense) but then why is mine the same as that. Could be totally ‘harmless’ I suppose just so happens (by accident?) that mine is the same as ‘anonymous’ but why would I be ‘picked’ out like that. I have always wanted to be ‘special’ but not in that way lol. Guru – I consider you ‘computer savvy’ do you have any thoughts about it?. Jack is also savvy but we have already had a dose of some of his speculations about it it involved Crystal and me shuttling back and forth to Arkansas to run some kind of scam with no clear purpose as far as anyone including me could tell lol. So that we can ignore probably……………leave it in the files of Inspector Clouseau

    The people ‘running the show’ could of course explain it………………but does this come under the heading of ‘what does it mean to you – me in this case. Valid enough I suppose but a bit of ‘reality’ would be nice. That was always my biggest gripe about the PI when something really really needs an ‘explanation’ all you are likely to get is ”what does it mean to you” That’s a pretty cute and convenient way to run things I could see myself running some organization and if ever there was a complaint or a problem with say either a customer or a worker I would swivel around on my chair in the corner office fix them with a stare (Guru) and just say “what does it mean to you”………………….problem solved………………next………….

  9. lalaland says:

    just testing the gravatar with a made up nonsense name here…………..see what happens?

  10. Anonymous says:

    OK so it’s the same for EITHER ‘anonymous’ or a made up name or ME………………Guru can you please apply your brains to this. You have solved a few problems for me before. I will leave this ‘anonymous’ but I imagine that will also be the same gravatar

    • Phil says:

      To me it’s likely that all this is random stuff having no significance.
      Maybe it’s just that you would like it to mean something; that someone is bothering to pay special attention to you.
      If someone anonymous shows up and comments on you, that’s understandable given all the space and commotion associated with some of the things you’ve said.

      • Patrick says:

        That’s all kind of interesting Phil, but again I feel I am kind of looking for some ‘reality’ here. I presume Gretchen or Barry could put it to rest but so far they don’t. I mean it IS a bit bothersome to me……………….every time there is an ‘anonymous’ it sort of looks like me if anyone is paying attention but IT IS NOT ME!!. So what gives? Call me paranoid or wanting to be special or whatever you like but what about the REALITY of the situation. Like any ‘conspiracy theory’ it will go away with a good explanation……………… far I have not seen any and especially none from the people who would or should know.

        • jack says:

          Maybe you don’t really know the purpose of the blog, let alone the purpose of the therapy, seemingly.

          Why is it that you alone come accross as being the only authority on REALITY. I certainly don’t see it. My take is that your “reality” is nothing more than your own old feeling.

          Let Barry and Gretchen run this shows … it’s way more theirs than it it’s yours.


          • Patrick says:

            So it’s sort of like a ‘small business’ then……………I guess I understand I know it has gotten pretty ‘small’ and none better than yourself to enforce ‘smallness’ or ‘fanatacism’…………………..I know you are big ‘fan’ aren’t you getting a bit old for this……….being a ‘fan’ I mean…………..never ‘grew up’ I suppose………….”Oh Art you sure are my hero” as someone said to me who saw that “What a c…s…er!

        • Phil says:

          I have a WordPress account and can choose a gravitar, but I don’t care about that. Why don’t you choose a different gravitar if that is bothering you? I’m glad that we mostly know who is commenting here whether by name or consistent pseudonym. I don’t think anonymous comments are worth much.

          • Patrick says:

            Phil – well maybe that’s all it is then? I am not aware of having ever chosen a gravatar so maybe mine then just goes to some kind of default setting. Probably then a ‘conspiracy’ with nothing behind it. I will drop it now.

            • Patrick says:

              I say I’d drop it but looking into it a bit more I notice when I first went on the blog I had a different one (gravatar) than I have now. Also just to take 3 of the more ‘active’ members Margaret, Larry and Tom V all STILL have the same one as then. I am talking early 2012 (now time flies!) So for some reason mine has been changed or shall we say ‘down graded’ to the same as ‘anonymous’.I am sure some idiot and I know which one will tell me exactly HOW I SHOULD be thinking and feeling and talking about this this from the same freak who endlessly goes on about ‘all feelings are valid’ or some such pretense as that…………..anyway no need to take this so seriously think of it maybe like a parlor game……….but I WAS wondering if maybe Barry isn’t playing some kind of Talmudic game on me. Talmudic games are a bit scary to me – see what they say about Jesus – but again he is the only one here who could clear that up. But will he?

              • Patrick says:

                I just got a ‘flash’ maybe of why Michael Holden ‘lost his mind’…………..maybe it all got a bit too ‘Talmudic’ for him…………

              • jackwaddington says:

                Quote:   “talking about this this from the same freak who endlessly goes on about ‘all feelings are valid’ or some such pretense as that” Why are feelings so sort of PRETENSE??????       From you I can understand that , that is your REALIT … but not I feel others on this blog. So here we go again … laying down the laws of “REALITY” Jack

                • Patrick says:

                  Do I really have to ‘explain’ this…………I guess I do………my point is it is a PRETENSE on your part to constantly ‘theorize’ along the lines of “all feelings are valid” and THEN in practice to constantly tell me how to feel, think, speak,and how I SHOULD be doing, saying expressing etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum forever and ever AMEN!!

                  • Jack says:

                    Here we go again … you making accusations … because you don’t read thoroughly. There’s no way I would wish to help you with your failed therapy (your own admission). It’s purely my feeling that ALL feelings are valid. For your catholic ears … they are god given … ALL feelings. No exception. It’s the expression of those feeling that is the act-out or otherwise.

                    Go figure .. if you are able.


                    • Patrick says:

                      So nice to see you wake up ‘happy and gay’………what a way to start to day talk shit to me and it only get’s worse as the day goes on. You are losing it dude…………….

                    • Jack says:

                      You really leave yourself so vunerable to your own angers; that I suspect have little or nothing to do with me. I gather you dish it out to others as well. Were you forced out of Sally’s back
                      house also???????

                      Other than this blog, what else do you do for fun??????


  11. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > maybe it represents that hard situation of trying to cope and keep control of a situation that actually is too much, too overwhelming to completely grasp and keep under control.
    > needing help, not being all alone to have to take responsibility, it seems to represent such a deep and scary reality of being all on your own o
    > in a difficult world, and that already as a young kid..
    > seems like one of those dreams in which we struggle desperately to stay in control, mostly in vain.
    > for me it is often translated into driving a car and then the brakes do not function well or the steering and the situation threatens to get out of hand.
    > or being on a roof, slope or edge of an abyss and not knowing how to get into safety.
    > these dreams for me seem to gradually shift to getting a bit more control over the situation, with excepption of this dream of being actually stabbed.
    > then again it might be a way of looking that most terrifying feeling of all more straightly in the face, bit by tiny bit..
    > that dream seems to be trying to get something connected for you, hopefully once upon waking up out of it, or writing about it you can pinpoint the feeling it represents.
    > I must say it stands out in its originality, but of course the original situation was probably painful.
    > what happened with the litters that were ‘too many’?
    > who took care of them?
    > M

    • Phil says:

      I remember getting guinea pigs as a very exciting episode in my childhood. I was maybe 4 or 5, and they weren’t all mine or my responsibility, but that is what happened over time. Having them seemed to bring the whole family together, except around this time my mother was very ill and would be going to the hospital and then leaving our home for good. I don’t remember her having anything to do with these pets which we kept in the basement. or the exact sequence of events.
      My father might have gotten them as a distraction from all this pain and sadness going on.
      The guinea pigs were a lot of fun; very colorful, picking names for them, and they seemed to have different personalities. One might have been pregnant to begin with when we got it. We had as many as 8 or 10 of them at one time. I remember giving a guinea pig to two of my friends as a birthday gift, which was maybe not entirely appropriate.
      The guinea pigs were of interest and fun to have for many months but after a while, not so much. They eat, pee, and poop a lot, and are a lot of work to take care of.
      We had a lot of pets, but my dream probably has to do with what I’ve described here.

  12. Phil says:

    Guru, Money man, I have a question for you. Are the stock markets going to keep going down or
    level off at this point? What’s your opinion on this?

    • Phil: How did you get the impression that I am a money man? Just because I find it an interesting topic which my mother was heavily involved in doesn’t mean I am rich. If I was rich, why would I complain about the millions in losses I had to completely write off during my pre-school years? In fact, sometimes I wonder if that inhibits my ability to be rich since I wouldn’t be able to complain to anyone anymore to garner sympathy or empathy. If I was worth, say, $5 million, people would feel less sorry for me explaining I lost $100 million early on than from the standpoint of my being middle-class or lower.

      Having said all this, the market is facing a lot more headwinds than previously. Interest rates are going up and the era of Federal Reserve easy money is over. I hate to make predictions because the market can stay irrational much longer than most people can stay solvent.

      Currently, I would look for overvalued companies as strong short selling candidates (or maybe put options if your account allows them). An additional plus would be to try avoiding companies with a large short interest to lower the risk of getting slaughtered by an unexpected short squeeze (violent upward price spiral).

      • Phil says:

        Guru, I’m looking to invest some money from a pension fund rollover into mutual funds. I don’t have the patience or persistence to invest in and watch individual stocks.
        I didn’t think you were rich but you have given what seems like some well informed
        views in response to my question.

        • In that case look for bearish funds, contrarian funds, deep value/defensive stock funds (good luck with that one), or maybe even a dividend re-investment plan setup with a company that has a long history of paying steady dividends.

          You’ll want to become more and more conservative as you get older and your prospective future earning power diminishes.

      • Jack says:

        Quote: Guru: “How did you get the impression that I am a money man? ” Simple … your gravatar is a big giveaway.


  13. Patrick: I know nothing at all about how WordPress applies its standard gravatar designs. I can make a custom gravatar, but that’s all I know on the matter.

    All you can do is give “Anonymous” a very mean squint like Barry gave me, That should rattle his bones a bit, I would think.

  14. Margaret says:

    > vicky,
    > what you said about your frind and his sudden and unexpected death is still on my mind.
    > it is indeed awful to be jerked away out of life like that, and a reminder of how limited our time can be..
    > sorry for you.
    > M

  15. Sylvia says:

    Subscribing, listening to all the words of wisdom here.

  16. Patrick says:

    Jack-Ass – I have NEVER lived in Sally’s back house and whatever you get through ‘rumor mill’ well that’s all it is ‘rumors’ You disgusting gossiping FAG. I notice you do this with Guru also ‘you heard it through the grape vine blah blah blah’. Some freaking primal rumor mill which is worth about as much as all the rest of it is worth…………..pretty much nothing. Huddle with your little namby pamby ‘friends’ and \gossip like a nosy neighbor. You know next to nothing about me and go on keep it up…………..let’s see how your neighbors feel about a proven pervert in their midst. Leave me the fuck alone FAG you have nothing to teach me or tell me or anything of any value. Keep sucking Janov’s dick………………..that’s about all you have ever ‘achieved’


  17. Patrick says:

    To maybe show I do have other more interesting things on my mind that this worthless parasitic FAG it seems it is not only vaccines are a lie, and the ‘holocaust’ is mostly a lie certainly nothing like it has been portrayed here is one about the moon landing. Makes one think or certainly makes me think………………it seems there are SO MANY lies at the base of our ‘culture’ what’s Janov’s ‘lie’ really in the big scheme of things. I don’t mean it’s a lie about what a profound effect childhood trauma has but his ‘means and methods’ have been proven as such a failure and never an honest doubt is expressed or ‘allowed’ at least among his ‘cock sucker followers’ like Jack-ass. What a ruined ‘movement’ and I DON”T consider myself a ‘failure’ except I ;’failed’ at therapy the way he proposed which now actually I see as a healthy sigh. To ‘succeed’ in his terms is truly to fail as witnessed by the parasitic FAG in question. Anyway think about something \else here official primal world is as dead as a door nail

    • Jack says:

      Did the Apollo mission actually go to the moon and return. I have no idea.

      Does Patrick ever say anything of any relevance to anyone else other than himself …. I have no idea

      Did World War II ever take place … I have no idea … but I did experience bombs being dropped on Manchester and went with my granny two days later and saw all the destroyed buildings. Maybe it was a lie put out by Winston Churchill so he could become Prime minister.

      Who knows and should I be so concerned about who is lying and who is telling the truth. Who’s Truth???? It doesn’t concern me unduly, since in the end I am concerned with is; how I feel … period end. All else takes second place.

      But then I am sure Patrick will keep up the bluster till he finally expires.


      • Patrick says:

        Dude it looks to me you have ALREADY ‘expired’ I see no signs of life in your ‘thoughts’ let alone your FEELINGS…………..said in a high pitched Winston Churchill like wheeze………….FAG-MAN

        • Jack says:

          There seems to be some deeply entrenched anger emanating right out of you body and soul. I have no idea from whence it came, but you have a chance to figure it out. the alternative is to keep up the hate and anger. I see that as very sad. Unless you are really that much of a masochist


  18. Patrick says:

    I like this guy Dave McGowan he lived in Torrance but died of cancer this year. This is the same ground but a bit more humorous. It’s interesting the ‘moon landing’ and ‘primal therapy’ was invented/discovered around the same time. What this guy says about the ‘moon landing’ could with a bit of tweaking be applied to primal. The same see no evil hear no evil, the same we were doing stuff THEN that totally eludes us NOW. Janov of course was a Russian Jew and the Talmudist mind set seems just fine with lies and fairy stories…………especially if it ‘pays’ and the Gentiles are doing most of the paying. Certainly the roughly 20 suicides ‘paid’ (whatever cover story Gretchen tries to come up with) and Michael Holden ‘paid’ with his sanity. But lalala …………….see no evil, hear no evil pay NO attention to the man behind the curtain. And if you have doubts just look at Jack as a ‘success’ story. That’s what ‘success’ is…………..a FAG who came to therapy gay and ended up ‘gayer’ but hey that’s ‘success’

  19. Patrick says:

    BTW I have a SMALL piece of personal experience in regards to this. We were at a moving conference in Orlando FL and decided to to to Cape Canaveral/Kennedy to see it. The first thing I remember saying to my friend with me was this place has a weird ’50 retro kind of feeling. The rockets and everything already looked ‘dated’ like I dunno those American drive through places Arby’s or Norms or something or earlier stuff than that

    But what I find more interesting now is they showed us the ‘lunar landing craft’ (the thing that dropped down onto the moon and whizzed back up again to dock with something that was moving we’re told at 4,000 miles per hour. Anyway and I distinctly remember this saying to my friend this thing looks kind of like some homeless guy’s tent. A real flimsy looking thing made of plastic, and held together with ropes is kind of how I remember it. This is one of those ‘thoughts’ I quickly dismissed I mean it HAD to have done what we were told. Shows the value I suppose of ‘common sense’ or trusting one first impressions. Now in the light of what this guy is saying (and not only him) well those instincts were correct.

    I wonder if FAG-MAN or BAG-MAN will have a ‘comment’ on this, what ‘fault’ will he find it it. YOU BETTER NOT FAG!

  20. Patrick says:

    FAG-MAN is someone who could never in any sense make it in the world of men. His father was very disappointing in him that he could or would not play soccer or rugby. So here he is over 70 years later STILL taking it out on his father (me)……………see how primal therapy REALLY REALLY DOES WORK! Take Janov’s word for that and if really in doubt ask FAG-MAN!

  21. Jack says:

    Fag man here: The really sad bit about your comment is that you never made in the world of women … unless you paid dearly for it. From my experience when ostensibly were in business together. Even once propositioning a woman police officer. We’re none us perfect, contrary to what is seems you think of yourself.

    Jack the bag fag man.

  22. First, I would appreciate an end to the name calling. I think we are all smart enough to say our thoughts without morphing into ” Archie Bunker speak”. Words like faggot have caused a great deal of pain and I am quite sure we can find a way to express our thoughts or feelings without sinking to these levels. It serves no one. There is a great quote by EB White who said ” prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without getting the facts” . We can all think about that a bit. Patrick, I think you may be getting carried away with your conspiracy theories. Barry and I have no ” Zionist ” plot to screw with your Gravatar . Why would we do that? I barely know what a gravitar is no less know how to switch them around. So there is no Talmudic game going on and I have no clue what that is anyway. If I have a problem with someone or something I say it as does Barry. I just honestly feel this kind of thinking takes on a life of its own and continues to grow to include pretty much everything in its sight. It’s Godzilla really. Prejudice is always born of fear and ignorance in my view. That being said you are entitled to your own opinions and even your own fanaticism. You can believe that everyone is lying to you, that’s up to you. I just feel it’s all pretty toxic and unhealthy. If I’m correct I’m sure you will deal with it in your own time. The whole thing seems pretty miserable. In the meantime let’s all of us work on being civil . Gretchen

  23. Patrick says:

    Gretchen – you make some fair points there. But I want to say this………..when I introduced Kollerstrom a few months ago and you basically shut it down and talked about censorship etc………well I pulled my horns in. I did read his book and many more besides and I have to tell you I conclude after a lot of reading and thought the holocaust is way exaggerated. Basically nobody was gassed, there were no plans or orders from the Germans for any such thing. People including Jews died of course it was a horrible and disgusting war and we did as much if not more horrible things than the Germans.

    What does it matter? Well maybe I shouldn’t be on here I did talk to it about many people I know so it’s a fair question why do I have to here. So I didn’t and kept my mouth shut. Mostly that is fine with me it’s not a great effort or anything to do that. I don’t believe in ‘forcing’ myself to do or not do anything. But well then something builds up in me like I want to talk about but well I am not allowed or it is not acceptable. This goes on for a while I read more and more and get into other stuff. 9/11 7/7 etc and even now the moon. You and probably most people would consider that cuckoo and crazy well fine but it’s like it’s on my mind to talk about it. I don’t feel or think I am going crazy but well it can get lonely…………

    Than Jack is always a hurdle I feel he lies in wait for me to jump on me, I don’t need to repeat here what he does. Relentless criticism,and negativity, I put up with it, I ignore it and yes sometimes I react back maybe that could be seen as reacting badly Maybe so but it is not in my nature to be persecuted and mocked by someone I have little respect for. I have seen his antics over the years and you might not like this but as I said I see him as Janov’s cocksucker. He has nothing to say except enforce his primal dogma and stupidities…………….just a tiresome crapped out and clapped out drug swilling idiot but he still seems to live to just pounce on me. I would smash him in the mouth if he did this to my face but that’s him all over, nothing is to my face he is a keyboard warrior a coward and a snake in the grass. I helped him a lot over the years, when he was facing deportation paid his legal fees etc, He comes with more sob stories I give him large amounts of money. Still he seems to resent being helped after all Mr Know IT All should be the man in charge. Whatever as I have said for 4 years now I am ok with him IF he leaves me alone. I have tried and tried different things nothing works with this Devil. He is a true Devil a hateful disrespectful perverted asswipe here I go again.

    I am so sick of the pretensions of primal especially as exemplified by Jack just such a hopeless useless ‘religion’. I do still believe in it and I feel even live it but it is far from ‘official primal’. I have found my way I do feel that and here would be a nice place to just write as I feel it but there is this asswipe always waiting, always plotting always trying to put me down. Today when he gets into my personal life I can see then the gossip the lack of a life himself it seems to piss all over me. I am sick to death of this guy and I do feel also you are negligent in not just telling him to knock it off. Of course he is on your side or so it seems if I were you I would not want a scourge like that on my side. Enough.

  24. Otto Codingian says:

    Women. big feeling. caht express it in words. need them. dead mommy. not sure why i should say it on the blog. cant go to group and say it. dont exactly know what to do with it. death of my pets this year and last and facing my own death could be triggering it. something else too probably. loss of sex in my life and near-total death of my marriage. anyway, feels atmospheric all-suirrounding, cosmic. cant get iut out of my head. see a woman and it takes over me. loss and unattainability. so much anger on another plane too.

  25. Otto Codingian says:

    big wind a blowin and moon getting full. nothing to watch on tv. been sick all week but finally getting better. went crazy on lady z this week after she dropped me off at work and then called me asking if i could get 5000 more credit for an urgent dental procedure. i was going to hold in the insanity of this situation since it is already hard enough to pay for the existing bills, and i was waiting 3 extra hours at work while the procedure was going on and then she finally came to pick me up, but got turned around in the dark and got lost and it took a long time for her to get to me. So i was getting angrier by the second and screamed at her on the phone and berated her after she finally picked me up.. If she would not have reacted, the screaming could have ended, but she always feels she has to defend herself. I wanted to be mindful of her medical condition, but her getting lost was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I later said sorry, but i don’t feel much about it. I am such shit shit shit. monumentally.

  26. Otto Codingian says:

    I went to be taken care of by my violent uncle when i was ripped away from my mom at age 10 months. I thought that was the reason that i think a lot of people (mostly men) are pieces of shit. Now i see somewhat clearer how 10 months at military school made me feel this way. Well the uncle’s anger and uncaring certainly made me feel this way too. I don’t know if it really matters, it sucks to be me. I am not the cup half-full guy who i worked with today, as he regaled me with the many happy memories of his life writing for movies and how he seems to care about the women in his life, and how alive he is.He joked about us being the same age as Glen Frey and David Bowie, unfortunately deceased. My looming death is just salt on an open wound, and it doesnt matter if it is pink Himalayan salt either. It fucking hurts.

  27. Patrick says:

    I like the way Otto is just himself and carries on doesn’t let some bullshit cat fight between the likes of me and Jack affect him or knock him off course. Even if he already probably is off course for all his own reasons at least he does not allow himself to be put MORE off course.(Of course he is off course he is a primal patient – now there is something unfortunately that almost universally DOES put people even more ‘off course’ than they started with which would have been off course of course. Sorry for the crazy pretend James Joyce punning and word play. James Joyce an Irish writer was the one who christened Sigmund Freud Sickmind Fraud.And there is a lot of fraud in psychology a kind of bastard science that depends VERY much on the character of the people doing it or of the founder of various schools. Janov to me is a fraud in the real sense, he got an inkling of a good idea and fucked \it up pretty much totally. He borrowed or took something already happening in the culture, branded it his way made it “His” and lost everything in the process. Or his patients pretty much lost everything. Remember what Joop said he was roundly condemned of course but he spoke a lot of truth. More truth than me I try to keep it all together, make everyone happy and balance it all out Joop just quickly calls it as he sees it and he hits the mark mostly.He felt he was ostracized from therapy because of his so called antisemitism the most crazy bullshit charge that is misused all the time and I feel Gretchen you did it in your own way to me

    Gretchen I was amazed the way you tried to smash down on Kollerstrom I have read 4 books of his now and I love and am amazed in different ways by all of them. And he is not a one trick pony only ONE of them is about the holocaust he is not an anti-Semite at all to use a silly phrase anyway. But reading this guy made my whole Winter his intelligence his ‘beautiful mind’ and you can’t wait to call him a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’ So you talk above about insults you tossed them around yourself most carelessly and at JUST the wrong time and the wrong target. I don’t hold it against you, you are busy you don’t know hardly anything on some of these subjects you don’t have the time……………I understand it’s not a problem but you really should not go shooting your mouth off at the wrong times and places. People might find it rich of me to say something like ok fair point but even though I ‘understand’ I take it as a bad sign that you did that. A sign that you are just another one another of the deluded AND deluding millions or even billions now. Our world I am finding out is built on lies some huge lies and the untouchableness of the Jewish race is one of the biggest. We are drowning in global warming but hey all we should be concerned about is saving the asses of some Jews who are out of control in the Middle East. Out of control as in wrecking native people culture and deliberatly de-populating the region, send them off and stuff them down the Germans throat (again) to make an even “Greater” Israel. The one we have is already too big but they want to make it bigger and they will. Never happy always want to take more even if it belongs to someone else. One day it will be from the Nile to the Euphrates a monster state a monster war state and a slave state…………..our future that if we even have one.That’s what’s important…………..that’s such a tragedy and Gretchen you have shown me you are no different. Just another one another either brain washed one or one doing the brain washing. Same difference and now it’s like I am channeling Otto his despair is personal and real mine is more impersonal but still very much real. Primal as practiced and promulgated by Janov is a what was hoped to be a return trip a one way nowhere. Of course it’s difficult as the whole world is on a trip to nowhere but this was supposed to be ‘different’ It is not and often it is even worse and I still hold out the hope it COULD be different, that’s what haunts me and even why I am on here……………

    • Jack says:

      Quote: “Janov to me is a fraud in the real sense, he got an inkling of a good idea and fucked \it up pretty much totally. He borrowed or took something already happening in the culture, branded it his way made it….. ” The saddest part of this latest comment of yours is that you yourself was drawn into it after reading his book and then paid the money required, and came accross the pond. So much were you convinnced that there was something in it.
      My feeling was you “missed the train” when you questioned your three week therapist with “what’s the point” Had you just let it happen … for him to guide you into it, you might have found the “holy grail”. (My, and only my feeling). Instead of which as I read and know you, you now are all hell bent on proving that it was a fraud. YET!!! still pay lip service to doing it your own way and remain on a blog almost totally devoted to people (like Otto) that just wishes to vent his feelings. Whereas I see you venting your notions (ideas).

      What I am doing here is”- I cannot let someone like you dismiss Janov and his therapy or theory just be thrown around on this sort of very public blog. I don’t like it and re-act to it. That simple.

      I can agree with many of your other points of where as a speciese we humans are heading. Not sure I can do much about it and it sure is sad. Had the FULL implications of Janov’s discovery and yes! it was a major discovery, culminating from all those before him, beginning with Freud. Your now denial of that is because as I see it, you did’nt get what you hoped you might get; after reading the book.

      Even after all your pleading with the Institute to come to the rescue: when Gretchen did so, you accept (tentaively “fair points”) then rattle off again in some vague attempt to show just how smart and well read you are. Primally speaking I feel:- You ain’t … that smart. I’ll grant your final sentence on this comment:- “I still hold out the hope it COULD be different, that’s what haunts me and even why I am on here……………”


      • Patrick says:

        You pick and take out of context and misrepresent one reaction I mention I had about in group being ‘told to ask for what you want’ Then you run with this and try to prove some point. You are truly a waste of time and as to any possible solutions to your problems/dilemma see what I said to Margaret about all the drugs. This for sure applies to you. You are a dirty lying scheming leech keep the fuck away from me

  28. Patrick says:

    On these matters…………….this is cool

  29. Patrick, First of all… You imply you had something to say and were immediately censored. That is not the case at all. If you go back to your posts you will see you said your views multiple times before I said enough. I explained to you privately,through email, that I felt it was toxic to go on and on about these issues. I did not tell you to leave the blog I simply asked that you stop the rhetoric as you had made your point. It is true that I said Kollerstrom was a fool but I am entitled to my view. I also should point out that I said these conspiracies would grow to include endless theories and they have. In this way ( and you won’t like this) you become what you accuse Jack of. It begins to feel fanatical. I told you I would say straight out what I thought and yes I do think it’s a bit cuckoo but suit yourself. Also Patrick if you have so little respect for Jacks views then who cares what he has to say to you? Why struggle to get him to respond differently to you? Don’t engage with him if it is that upsetting to you . As I told you before I don’t think this is really about beliefs at all.,I think what you need to look at is the feeling you described above , the feeling that you have something unacceptable to say and your compulsion to say it. Let me be honest … What I wonder most when you are going on about the Holocaust for instance is where is the empathy? You know very well there are people here who have family members lost in the Holocaust . The other question I wonder about is why you do this to yourself? You have to know the response you will get. What is that? I believe you continue setting up this situation knowing the outcome. Lastly do you really think it’s a coincidence that the people you feel most upset with here are Jewish. Don’t you think there is a kind of transparency to lashing out in this way? Bottom line I would put the theories aside and spend more time investigating what’s going on inside. Again just my opinion. I’m not against you and I’m not interested in taking sides but once in a while I think it’s important that I say my view . Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      That’s fine Gretchen and I like that you say your ‘view’ it makes a nice change from just being a ‘therapist’. Still and all I have several problems with what you say here. In no particular order about Jack………….you and others here may not see it this way but to me the central and important point is pretty much ALWAYS he STARTS it!! Please don’t forget that. In ‘war’ and sadly enough this is what this has become with him the one who STARTS the war is held responsible. He may say I started it 4 years ago ok he has a point there I did I suppose but now he starts things all the time. Just about anything I say I KNOW he will be pissing on me…………….that’s a bad feeling I am only on here to express whatever is on my mind and to have him do this…………well you know and most others here if they are paying any kind of close attention must know this. I pretty much let anything go he says of his own accord he does not he pounces like a rat on me. Sometimes for months I ignore him I remember when I was in Ireland last year really I ignored him. I do understand it is provocative to him for me to talk about primal in anything but glowing tones but well with all that has gone on with me and the PI itself I DO NOT FEEL THAT WAY ABOUT IT. He should for all his ‘theorizing’ understand and accept that basic fact. Enough about this it will only unleash more torrents of abuse etc. He loves the attention he has said so numerous times and he ENJOYS fucking with me. What a pervert!

      I don’t like or accept this thing about how I had said my ‘views’ numerous times. I see what you are doing me painting me into the ‘anti-Semite’ corner. An old trick and one I am not impressed with or accept. I said numerous time I did not like what Israel was doing in the world and was agnostic about the holocaust. I saw it being used for bad purposes but like anyone else I ‘believed’ in it as much as you do without really going into it. Kollerstrom was the first time I FELT like going into it, here was an urbane cool and educated Englishman and I thought well let me check this out. And I have and thoroughly and not only him you would not believe how much I have been reading these last 4 months and I will say it again the holocaust did not happen! Of course we could debate for a long time what that means but to shorten it there was no ‘program’ of the Germans to do that, no budget no plans no documents no nothing. The Germans documented everything down to the last brick they might need to build a ‘gas chamber’ nothing. No ‘gassing’ was done gas was used for de-lousing actually used to SAVE lives. Typhus was rampart in the camps and the Germans were desperate to keep prisoners alive they also used them as slave labor more and more as the war went on so they wanted to keep them alive. 6 million is a completely ‘made up’ number based on propaganda all the way from the 1890’s about 6 million Jews being endangered in Russia. Later this number was used by Soviet propaganda to well just reinforce an ‘old story’.The Russians announced 4 million died in Auschwitz just a made up number for years there was a plaque there saying that, even ‘officially’ not it is changed to 1 million and now a lot of ‘holocaust believers/historians have moved it down to 600,000. But no matter it is somehow overall STILL 6 million. So that’s as I say simply ‘made up’

      You go on about ’empathy’ I have asked you before and you never even ATTEMPTED to answer “would you not feel happy and grateful to find out (if you did) that 6 million of your people did NOT die and certainly not from some deliberate extermination program” This is a serious question Gretchen I am not being cute here. I told you I had a ‘flash’ if say I believed all my life that say 6 million Irish people were gassed and one day I found it it was a horror nightmare and NOT true I pictured myself crying with happiness and relief. I really am interested in your answer to this an answer you have not attempted so far. I am saying this also not to put you in a corner it is a genuine question can you please try to answer.And if you could answer it it would help why it seems NO Jews have that reaction they seem to totally NEED TO BELIEVE it happened. Though I suspect they are not fools and it actually serves them very well. Like it even serves you here if ever you are questioned you can always throw out that old story……….

      You say ” Lastly do you really think it’s a coincidence that the people you feel most upset with here are Jewish” Are you serious? Is Jack Jewish? Doesn’t he upset me the most so where is your theory then? This I find disgusting because you ARE playing the anti-Semitic card you ARE and shame on you! Tom V is Jewish am I especially ‘upset’ with him not at all though I don’t care so much for what he talks about I find it weird and strange mostly but Jewish has nothing to do with it.

      In the case of you and Barry and Janov…………there is something there. Because I feel you have all totally messed up primal and your messing up HAS something to do with being Jewish. Exclusive, narrow, clannish this does NOT work well in the realm of ideas one reason primal has failed and is about to close up shop. Should have closed up shop years ago.Hopefully maybe to be ‘reborn’ in a better way with better influences. I wish I was the person to do it but of course I am not. This does NOT stop me from seeing the ruin of a good idea the potential wasted of a good idea. I just read a book “The Controversy of Zion” which puts this in perspective. There is something in that kind of narrow band of Judaism that it seems can ONLY fuck things up. Not all but in the narrow Talmudic mind set yes. And so it has happened Janov has completely failed on almost any perspective

      I could pick up on more but the overall feeling I have here Gretchen is you are pushing me into the anti-Semitic corner………………….you can’t do that to me well you can but at least I see through what you are doing. There is a much bigger picture here not that I expect you to see it sadly, smallness here is the name of the game and I know it is meant to be irrelevant that Israel is chasing millions of the native people out of that area and into Europe to screw things up there but it is not irrelevant to me. And I am sure to future generations and all the wars and catastrophes to come…………

      Lastly you say ” You know very well there are people here who have family members lost in the Holocaust” Well I don’t know that the only one maybe is Tom V he said something about how his whole family died in the holocaust. I don’t know what he means by that actually if he cared to write I would be interested but I wish it would be specific when where how why etc. Millions of Irish DID die in the Famine we are still laboring under the trauma of that but do the Irish have ‘famine laws’ against ‘famine deniers’ do they jail historians who might have a different view it feels even absurd to talk like that about ‘famine belief’ or ‘famine denial’ but that’s the game the Jews are playing and right there where laws are passed against thinking itself is a very bad sign. BTW Margaret I just read Belgium had to pay almost 200 million euros to some Jewish fund because they even though they were on the side against the Germans it was decided they did not do ENOUGH to prevent the holocaust. How cute is that, who decided that well it’s irrelevant as to the truth just more money for Israel to drive more refugees into Belgium and cause more problems.

  30. Patrick says:

    to lighten things up a bit…………..Gretchen I’m looking through you……….

  31. I have a question for Gretchen:

    A while back, Margaret came up with an interesting scenario where I may not feel great about someone being a huge race car or stunt car enthusiast here on the blog. Would you be willing to tamp down on someone who always showed gratuitous amounts of NASCAR racing or stunt driving? Or how about a rabid muscle car enthusiast in light of what happened to my mother and what has happened to countless others? Would you protect me in this instance?

    Or a related matter, what about the idea of gun hobbyists showing up on the blog, posting lots of videos of gun shows and how to best do target shooting or hunting when there may be a shooting victim’s family member reading the blog?

  32. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > it is ironic you come to Patricks defense sort of with this example.
    > If I remember well it was him who made a joke about car accidents on a very inappropiate moment when you were vulnerable, and I even think it is very well possible his intention was to hurt you, consciously or not.
    > your comparison does not feel really spot on as you lift out one aspect of what Gretchen said and ignore all the rest of what is going on, the spirit of the matter, the toxic part so to say.
    > me reacting on the comment in defense of your feelings at the time is the best example all kinds of senseless cruelty tend to be reacted upon here.
    > and well, I am not one of the people against all kinds of censorship and would feel opposed to repeted ‘ads’ for guns and violence here, as I also took a stand several times against an overload of pointless and repeated loads of agression and crap here.
    > this is really getting pretty crazy, and indeed does not help anyone.
    > boundaries and temporary bans like on the other similar blog would be fine with me, as a form of hygiene sort of.
    > which is not a ban of ideas or opinions or feelings, just a manner of social minimum levels needing to be respected, as a part of real life lesson and maybe iven therapy.
    > not all is ok, not in every way.
    > abuse is also not accepted in groups, specially not the personal kind of wildly bashing around with no therapeutic goal whatsoever.
    > and boy, I get sick of that victim role Patrick, what Jack says to you is mild irony compared to your toxic waste and delusional rants.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – I know you did not ask me but I think it’s a good question. To me people should be allowed and even encouraged to talk about WHATEVER they are interested in and since we all have faith in the ‘primal process’ it should all work out. Instead we mostly have ‘censorship’ or here maybe ‘inner censorship’ as in ‘you should be talking about this not that, you should be saying it this way not that’………..most of ‘enforced’ by one self appointed Sondercommando………..

    • Margaret:

      I mentioned you by name because I wanted to give you proper credit for germinating the idea to begin with regardless of context. People sometimes use ideas I originally came up with for their own benefit later on without giving me credit and it annoys me sometimes. I honestly don’t remember the exact circumstances in which you brought the idea up because it was many months ago, and it would require some dedicated research to hash out exactly what happened.

      This may surprise you, Margaret: I wasn’t typing out my post to defend Patrick. I am neutral to what is going on here, and I have no obligation to take the entirety of all the different points of Gretchen’s postings under consideration when only one slender aspect of it interested me in particular as a third party. Both Patrick and Jack have said things I didn’t like. You said Jack was a minor nuisance to most bloggers compared to Patrick, and I do acknowledge the apparent truth of this. With the exception of one spat I had with Patrick a long time ago, the opposite has been the truth in the sense that I have personally borne the brunt of the more emotionally stunted aspects of Jack’s behavior because I haven’t behaved the way he feels I should behave. I do agree with Patrick that Jack does fellate Janov an awful lot whereas my completely discontinuing reading Janov’s blog turned out to be a healthy decision for me.

      Ironically, I have to go on an unusually long road trip for business today so I may not be able to respond right away in case someone responds to me.

      Finally, I am going to emphasize once more that Patrick and I are two different people. I don’t know much at all about what happened under the Third Reich, yet I give the standard stories of six million deaths and gas chambers horrors the benefit of the doubt and generally accept it as truth. I just don’t have time to figure it all out because no one is going to hold my hand or really be my advocate in any cohesive group fashion concerning the tens of millions of traffic fatalities out there. I am all I have. No one else will advocate for me; I have to do it myself without any governmental help no matter how neurotic that Janov may implicitly claim I am.

      • Jack says:

        You say in this last comment:- “I am all I have. No one else will advocate for me; I have to do it myself without any governmental help no matter how neurotic that Janov may implicitly claim I am.
        Reply” That sounds very sad. I gather you are in some difficulties, though you don’t say exactly what. You don’t have to if you wish not. I take it you are still of working age and from something you said some time ago, I believe you are into computer developing apps.

        If so hope it works out well for you.


        • Patrick says:

          A little bit of fake ‘sensitivity’ now…………..the pull and drag to keep you from being board. You are not a friend to Guru as you are not to me. Can you ever quit your PR attempts I guess you can’t or don’t want to. Eeech Leech……..a quoting back leech not much going on in his own brain drowned with toxic drugs………

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – are you having another of your ‘fictitious moments’ or ‘delusional memories’ maybe I should just be kind (I can be) and call it a ‘senior moment’ I have no idea what you are talking about and would challenge you to find it or if you can’t find it at say what you think you remember. Then we can ask Guru if he has any memory of that. After all of something so hurtful happened – which it didn’t’ he surely would remember. I believe and can even say I know you are being totally delusional about this. I have had 2 arguments with Guru here and I KNOW none of them did or even could involve what you are implying. Don’t forget to say you are sorry when you are proved wrong again.

      Maybe more interesting is WHY you even try to make trouble like this? Do you know? Do you have any idea? I am interested in your answer.

      I see you like Jack just kissing the ass of authority or what you think is authority. To me with all the lying they have lost their authority. Also like Jack my take on you is both of you are addled with the really toxic drugs you both take for a non-existent condition and of course like a holocaust ‘victim’ being told it never happened you resent that too. Both of you are narrow and touchy and intolerant. Here you go again with you ‘banning’ talk you have the floor for weeks on end do I try to ban you. If you talk about toxic look to the drugs you are taking and you might be getting closer to some real toxic things and something that affects you. My beliefs and especially based on they are on serious thought and reading should not be toxic to you at all. But of course you have borrowed the invalid Gretchen meme and we know what that is the old hoary ‘story’ of antisemitism

      You miss the point totally about Jack and me…………….I admit I express myself in ways that I suppose I shouldn’t but it is always in reaction to his sniping. I do ignore him a lot of the time but this as most everything else you seem to either misunderstand the dynamics of what is going on or willfully do so. Your fictitious memories do not bode well for you. And your predictable weighing in on the side of what you think is authority does not bode well for you either. About time you started to think for yourself more and you even know in the political arena what I am talking about. At the time of the Charlie Hebdo event you mentioned the Mossad were running around Belgium even maybe where you lived. I am sure they were because I believe that was a ‘fake terror’ even they actually set up. Kollerstrom mentioned that the 4 Jews who ‘died’ in quotes were shipped back to Israel immediately for burial………………….which means nobody died. Just a thought and I believe it is correct. I know and here also we are not meant to question or wonder about this but for some reason I do…………….

      • Patrick:

        While I am still here, there have been a fair number of instances where you said things I didn’t like (and now I am starting to remember a bit of what Margaret is referring to about auto collisions). You also made it a point to bring up 9/11 a lot more than most people aside from myself where it left me wondering if you were trying to goad me in some way.

        These were minor nuisances to me enough to where I just didn’t want to waste time or energy hashing it all out on the blog in some excruciatingly tedious detail. It’s just not worth it for me.

        As I said before, you haven’t gone after me nearly as much as Jack has in recent times even though it’s plain to see most everyone else is having more serious trouble with you compared to Jack.

        Maybe it’s because I’m not Jewish and I couldn’t fathom living any resemblance of a homosexual lifestyle. I don’t hold it against others for being gay, though, it doesn’t bother me and I’ve had several casual gay friends. Two or three guys have made advances towards me in my life and, “NO! Just stop right there. Don’t bother.” was my natural reflex. Bisexual/lesbian females are welcome to approach the inner sanctum, however.

        OK, that’s it. Gotta go now.

  33. Patrick says:

    Just woke up turn on the News a politician, congressman from the Valley (Jewish) and he is saying we need to put the pressure on Iran because and get this “all the terror and failure we see in Syria is because they are supported by Iran” then you see pictures of true horror. This is a ‘respectable’ asshole and what he is saying is totally absurd and he is pushing and promoting to turn Iran into another Syria or iraq or Libya. MORE horror and terror (and let’s not forget de-population) for Israel’s neighbors more expansion of that State, the demented ‘dream’ of a “Greater Israel” seems to drive them on. And MORE ‘refugees’ for Europe let the Germans and the others too choke on their own ‘political correctness’ set the people in all European countries fighting each other (including Ireland with their ‘Christian’ souls and attitudes), then have ‘fake terror’ events in those countries supposedly done by Islamists but in reality prostitute governments directed by the like of Mossad, MI5 CIA etc and we should be good to go. A totally ruined Middle East and a pretty much ruined Europe but hey the big picture is working out a “Greater Israel” is being born. How cute is that little baby and don’t you feel for him he is just about to say his first words which probably would be ‘now it’s all mine’ except like Janov by making it all ‘His’ he lost it all or maybe more accurately his patients lost it all. Dark vision? I guess so but it’s how I see it this morning and this was from the first 0/30 of TV. I better ride my bike and get away from this if I can on TV at least the rest of the day will be much the same. I am probably exaggerating a bit about Janov but only a bit and I am trying to make a point……….but propaganda everywhere…………

  34. Patrick says:

    Here is Kollerstrom’s talk about the Charlie Hebdo ‘event’ I found it fascinating and illuminating though I imagine at least here I might be alone in that. But hope springs eternal maybe someone will get something out of it. People I know and respect very much do

  35. Jack says:

    I have the desire to talk about myself, hopefully not in defense of myself, (that I will leave for others to decide). There have been many things people have said about me and most of it, in the context they said it was “MY’ truth. If some of this is a repeat of things I have already said, forgive me.

    I have spent a life time as a sex addict. What I mean by addict is:- that it is a ‘pain killer’. It was not until I read “The Primal Scream” that the impact of this hit me. Until that moment I saw sex as a natural function of life and hence thought little about my insatiable desire to pursue it. After reading ‘The book’ I began a whole series of re-thinking and came to the conclusion that sex was a part (for us humans) of the “Love quotient”. One therapist did suggest I attend a 12 step program for my compulsion and did so for several years. In that time I met many others, of both sexes with the same addiction to varying degrees, which also gave me a lot of insights as to the full scope of this condition.

    I feel (though I am prepared to consider that I might be in a great deal of denial) I saw the purpose and benefits of Primal therapy and the absolute simplicity of the message Janov conveyed in ‘that book’. If that, it is now seen as:- “I do agree with Patrick that Jack does fellate Janov”, does feel to me somewhat missing my sentiments on both the therapy and Janov.

    I have long realized that (to repeat) “There is the good, the bad, and the downright ugly part of me” I am not as of this moment trying to eradicate any part of the bad or ugly, nor to promote what little good there is in me. I know who I am (for myself) and can live with it. I am also willing to listen, and for the most part consider what others say about me, and many have taken to telling me in group, the retreats and on the streets and lastly from my ‘Jimbo’, who should know me well enough after 35 years of being together and/or associated with one another. I place a great deal of value in a close relationship with another human being. It’s not that I am some ‘brain box’ at possessing this. I got my ‘mammy’ for the most part and a Granny (my mother’s mother). I did miss out on an ‘expressive’ daddy, even though he meant well … but for the little me, that was not good enough.

    The other aspect of me is my ‘homosexuality’. I always knew I was born “gay”, to coin the phrase; but I readily admit now, after many years in therapy, that is it not natural. What I now see is that I was affected in gestation in the womb (no need for me to go into details about it, right now), and that my lack of a feeling-full daddy, exacerbated the issue. However, even in early childhood I never had any terrible feeling about my being different nor any desire to change it. In this respect unlike many other ‘gay’ guys I never had any problems being this way, or wanting to change it.

    The other aspect of me is that I see from my early days in therapy that ‘being defensive’ is contrary to my real health, that is both physical and mental. I am not able to say I never am defensive, but I am very conscious of trying hard to not be.

    To finally repeat, I love life (so far), and love blogging, especially on this blog.

    I am not attempting to teach anyone about anything. We all do it our own particular way, and in our good time, in-spite of many of the reasoning’s emanating from childhood.


  36. Otto Codingian says:

    ah, new wave. what a little joy that started out to be, once JL’s death kind of faded. Watching the new mtv after my 1st son was born. I was lucky enough to stay home with him a bit since i was still in school at age 30. anyway. stuff was still dark, but there was a little breath of air still left. lene lovich lucky number. not even sure if it was on mtv. probably. doesn’t matter, heard it somewhere. fresh and upbeat. how can a song like that make me cry? it’s fucking gone, man, fucking gone.

  37. Otto Codingian says:

    life is so strange, destination unknown. sad.

  38. Guru, First, yes I will protect you. Okay let’s use your gun enthusiast example. Suppose we had several members of the community who had family members murdered with guns. Someone comes on the blog and says ” that’s a lie, guns don’t kill., Guns are made of licorice and they are used at amusement parks to shoot candy into the air for the amusement of all. Anyone who says people have died as a result of guns is deluded, I know the truth and your personal experience and losses are meaningless.” . Suppose this was repeated endlessly, then yes I would allow the candy man to say his view but at some point I would say enough. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Gretch

    • Gretchen: I’m largely in agreement with you here concerning what Patrick has said. I’m not going to go into this part of WW2 history specifically, except to say that if the unpopular point Patrick raises is being done over and over again where it would injure someone else….yes, it’s probably best to continue raising the point elsewhere eventually.

      On the second point of protecting me: I hope you don’t take this as a singular reflection of you, but even though your words are appreciated, words can be empty vessels in this day and age. Would you be willing to purchase a $2 million surety bond as a sign of good faith that your words ring true? You would be a lower risk given your intentions are wholesome, so you could probably buy one cheaply I would imagine.

  39. Phil says:

    Gretchen, Thank you for stepping in to address this issue. I don’t know how Guru feels about this but I appreciate how you put it. I think there does need to be some limit which is reasonable.

  40. Patrick, I answered your question earlier today and yet I don’t see it here. Possibly I turned off the computer before it posted. Hopefully I’m not just missing it and in danger of repeating myself. Anyway I’m not clear why you expect people to cry with happiness when you tell them the Holocaust did not happen. There is a simple reason people are not overjoyed by your news… They simply don’t believe that as there is too much evidence to the contrary. As I have said before I think it’s a mistake to read only those things that confirm your beliefs rather than being knowledgeable on both sides of an argument. The other thing is you misunderstood what I was saying previously. I was not bringing up things you had said in the past to prove you were Anti Semitic . When I said you were not actually censored but instead were asked to stop repeating yourself and posting Kollerstrom videos I was talking about your most recent discussions on the subject. I was making the point that you said your views on the Holocaust multiple times before I said it was enough. I also told you there were other sites with like minded people you could discuss this with. You could even discuss it on your Paleo blog. For that matter you can create your own blog to debate these issues if you wanted to. The point is everyone in the Primal community is clear what your views are and I think it is time to leave it at that. Gretchen

  41. Daniel says:

    Thank you Patrick for finally cracking that Holocaust case wide open. It is now clearer than ever why Nazis destroyed all those documents and buildings in those resorts, erroneously called concentration camps, and why some of their top officials fled to South America: They didn’t want their Crème brûlée recipe – a camp favorite – to fall into the hands of the allies. You know how touchy those French are about their cuisine.

    And since your exhaustive, open minded research found no evidence for any methodical mass-killings of Jews and Gypsies back then, but plenty of evidence for how Jews currently want to bring mayhem and destruction to others, I’d like to suggest you further expand your own ‘beautiful mind’ with the help of another mind beautician. Mein Kampf is back on the bookshelves. Pick it up, in it you will find ideas which you couldn’t have put better yourself.

    • Welcome back to the blog after such a long absence, Daniel. Your sudden re-appearance reminds me of early 2014 when I decided not to watch the Shoah documentary because I didn’t see much of a point in doing so for myself, yet Patrick apparently did watch the entire nine-hour stretch. He even offered effusive praise for the documentary at the time.

      One particular question strikes me here: If Patrick was duly informed of the materials in Shoah, what exactly changed his stance in such a radical, 180-degree turnabout to the opinion he has today? Perhaps a detailed look at exactly what convinced Patrick to change his mind would clear up the matter for everyone involved.

      I am a neutral party and I am going to largely step away from the action now.

      • Phil says:

        When you say you are neutral, to me that means you must have doubts. All of us, I believe, have probably received an education on these events somewhere along the line, usually in high school. Not that 100% of what we are taught is necessarily true.

        • Phil: When I say I am neutral, it means I have disassociated myself from the entire argument as much as possible for a lot of different reasons. I was trying to lend a helpful suggestion that pinpointing exactly what changed Patrick’s mind might end this matter entirely. Maybe it won’t, I don’t know.

          I already went over this stuff nearly two years ago. I still have the same outlook.

          I will cautiously add that I don’t quite trust the education system because I was never taught a word about the destruction the automobile has wrought. Rich and powerful Americans save $200 billion per year as a result. Boo-yah!

          • Phil says:

            I thought that Patrick has shared with us his sources
            It sounded more to me like you wanted to activate the debate further
            without giving your own views.

      • Daniel says:

        Thanks Guru. I don’t know if Patrick changed his mind and if he did I don’t know why. As Phil says, Patrick has been reading about the subject and I might add he chose a very narrow angle that will prove what he wanted to prove.

        This is not a matter of opinion but of fact. After decades of research by researchers from all over the world but mainly in Europe, people who dedicated the better part of their careers to sit in archives and pour over thousands of documents, eye witness accounts, letters sent home, personal diaries, trial transcripts, complaints of locals to authorities, telegrams, architectural plans, train schedules, reports by officials, police records, etc., and did so using the established research methods of studying history, the conclusion that there was a purposeful and systematic destruction of European Jews (the so-called Holocaust) is incontrovertible.

        Those who deny it – the ones Patrick turned to – display very poor science, mostly highly selective and taken out of context, and have an agenda, meaning they never just study the facts, connect those facts in a meaningful and logical manner, and draw conclusions about the matter – and only the matter at hand. Instead of seriously grappling with the findings of other researchers they usually come up with some paranoid conspiracy theory to explain why those others reached their findings. That makes their conclusions malintended, politically rather than scientifically driven, and therefore cannot be taken nor are taken seriously by academia or for that matter by decent human beings.

        But the fact they cannot be taken seriously doesn’t mean they can’t do harm. They do, because they propagate hate and provide an asylum for ill minded people who don’t know better, giving their hate a destructive direction. As this piece of history demonstrated, that can be deadly.

        • Phil says:

          So very well said, and I totally agree. What’s also notable to me is that it’s part of a pattern: Vaccines are useless and even damaging, HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, it’s caused by the drugs used to treat it., the Holocaust didn’t happen, 911 was an inside job, the moon landings didn’t take place, the recent terrorist attacks here and in France were part of a conspiracy, and I probably forgot a few. Oh yea, primal therapy doesn’t work, it’s a good idea but practiced all wrong, none of us have actually benefited from it. .

  42. Margaret says:

    > I feel so powerless and distressed about the situation with my mom.
    > recently it seemed things were better, but I just called her and found out she kept the wooden window shutters closed all day, and did not have a clue whether it was morning or evening.
    > talking more with her she said she was scared, that there was a brutal guy occasionally trying to get into the house, one who brings medication.
    > we inquired some weeks ago about the nurses coming by but she herself said it was not the male one or the girl, and those are the only ones going there so it does not seem to make sense.
    > I tried talking with her about it not being good she lives like that, scared with the shutters closed but then she immediately talks as if she never said such a thing, so it is pointless to go on about it.
    > if I say I think she’d be better of in the nursiing home instead of living like that, she insists she never wants to go there.
    > to calm her down I said it only is my opinion and I won’t force her, but what should I do??
    > still let it go on for a while, I guess, until a room comes available and then see if her boyfriend and the doctor can make her agree to go there..
    > I hesitate to tell my brother about this as it will only upset him and tomorrow she may have a bettter day.
    > will porbably tell him on saturday when I see him, but it is very painful.
    > M

  43. Well said Daniel! Guru, I wondered what made you think he ” changed his mind” ? ( I’m on top of that bond thing Guru 🙂 )

    • To Daniel, Gretchen, and Phil:

      Phil & Gretchen: I was not trying to prolong the discussion just for the sake of prolonging it. I was trying to follow the old (perhaps pseudo-Janovian?) principle of getting to the very root, the very crux of the problem/disagreement in order to dislodge the whole thing altogether.
      (Get to the root of the ‘feeling’/’disagreement’/’issue’ to finish it out???)

      Daniel & Gretchen: Patrick seemed very amenable to that documentary at first, then it grew into an increasingly hostile disagreement over time. It struck me that Patrick had a “change of mind” somewhere early in the discussions.

      Daniel: From my own perspective, it is not an issue of denying or accepting the occurrence. Rather, how much significance and attention should be paid towards it? If you want to continue studying it and reviewing, it’s OK with me! I just have to look at other things out of personal necessity.

      I get older and crinklier and my time grows more limited each and every day, yes? Have to pay more and more careful attention to what I am paying attention to.

      There is nothing more for me to say, really.

  44. Otto Codingian says:

    They can deny the holocaust all they want. Murdered Jews. Armenians. American Indians. Vietnamese. The fact that no one can (reasonably) deny, is that man is a wild insane beast, and it only takes one lunatic leader such as Hitler or Napoleon to create a war of immense carnage for both soldiers and civiliajns. When you see that beast, if you can’t take him out somehow you best be steppin’, to the hills or wherever. Some people are real good at killing.

  45. Otto Codingian says:

    on a more private note: dark. disturbed. devastated. another one bites the dust. out of the blue and into the black. she didn’t make it. had to take the 3rd pet in 6 months to the vet to be euthanized. Katrina the cat didn’t want to go. She seemed to be fading fast, lost weight, wasn’t eating, big tumor on her nose. I tried taking her last night, but I could not do it. She perked up the minute we got to the vets. Again today, she was laying on her bed looking like she was about to die, and then she started perking up the minute we got to the vet. It was again immensely destroying to me to watch my pet die, and having to be the one to make it happen.. Z can’t figure out why i have gone inward for so long now, even though i have told her again and again. No fault of hers. She is cup half full. I am no cup at all. At least i was able to get a big tear out. Oh yeah. My youngest kid and his wife had their 2nd baby yesterday. ok then.

  46. Sylvia says:

    Otto, sorry about your kitty. On a happier note, congrats on your new grandchild, a new life.

    Margaret, feel for you, having had the same problems with my ma. She would get confused as to when things happened and telling real from unreal, thinking a show on TV was real. She would think those people on a program would be coming over. I explained it was pretend. Day and night was the same for her also, sleeping during the daytime. You are doing all you can right now and I hope your mom becomes more open to the idea of a care residence and accepting that help. Take good care.

  47. I know Margaret is deeply worried about her mother, and I won’t detract from that for long. I just wanted to say I haven’t had a drop of alcohol (much less any drug) since that November 7th episode where I drank too much. Am I posting this here because I wanted everyone to give me brownie points or put a feather in my cap saying how proud they are of me? No.

    I did want to mention that one of the people I drank with that day had a recent conversation with me where he mentioned the possibility of drinking watered down beer with 3.2% alcohol instead of the standard fare of 5% or greater with other drinks (wine, Kahlua, etc.). As we talked, it was almost as if my buddy was actively negotiating with me to drink again. It subconsciously went along the lines of, “Come on man, there’s lighter stuff out there that can ease you back into the party game.” (He said this quote in a very subtle and diplomatic way by informing me that 3% beer is available) I laugh right now because the discourse was so strange in a way: My friends negotiating with me to inject more manageable amounts of poison in me when I already have enough worries and difficulties to tend to as it is without anything to drink at all. Of course, he respected my decision to stay away from drinking for the time being, yet he will make himself a bit more scarce around me since he wants to party a lot.

    I may drink sometime in the future because being a complete lifelong teetotaler feels like a dull and deprived way to live, yet I don’t like the dangerous slippery slope of impaired judgement after 3-4 drinks, either.

    OK, back to the difficulties of ordinary life, I guess.

  48. Guru, Well whether you want it or not I’m proud of you. Gretchen p.s. As for your friend I do think there is a bit of misery loves company there!

    • To Margaret, Larry, and Phil: Thank you for your congrats & well wishes, but staying away from drinking was actually an easy decision for a while. My brain wanted a refuge from it!

      Gretchen: The reason I wasn’t looking for someone to be proud of me is because it feels very slightly patronizing to me. People tend to be proud of their kids or maybe their pets. I’m aiming towards being the big, hearty lumberjack in the forest like the Brawny paper towel guy by trying to be a strong man who cheerily accepts no help from anyone in case there is a higher being that eventually sorts out all the leeches in the world. Taking a cue from the recent stories from Brazil, people being proud of me starts to leave me with slight touch of adult-onset microcephaly, that is all.

  49. Margaret says:

    > Ottto,
    > your comment about your cat Katrina and your feelings really touched me.
    > I relate to what you write about.
    > I think a ppet is so vulnerable, trusting, and loving we want to protect it at all cost, and probably identify with its openness and the pureness and vulnerability we once had as small kids, still trusting and needing and able to love fully…
    > my heart goes out to you, will you be able to see your latest grandkid soon?
    > is it a boy or a girl?
    > M

  50. Margaret says:

    > Sylvia,
    > thanks for your reply.
    > just called my mom, in the morning this time, to make her open the shutters of the windows.
    > she started arguing again about this so called fat brutal nurse and this time I went along with her story and told her that guy would not come anymore as I did call the company, which gave her instant relief. of course she will forget it again, but hopefully some of it will stick anyway.
    > she did open the shutters, and I tried to coach her into being cooperative when the nurse would show up, telling her it was a service and a medication to allow her to stay in her house for as long as possible.
    > my brother called me shortly after, and said what a relief it would be if she’d agree to go to the nursing home, as it would solve so many problems, but we’ll have to wait and see when a room gets free if her boyfriend and the doctor can persuade her to go.
    > if we try so she only gets more cross and stubborn…
    > the call with my mom took a few changes of atmosphere between discussing and arguing but ended in a nice and friendly way, with her being happy and grateful for my calling her and helping her.
    > at waking up and thinking about my life and the things I need and want to do and how I worry about everything, it struck me it is simply fear I feel all the time, deep early fear that latches onto any focus in sight, looking for ‘rational’ sources.
    > I will try to keep that in mind and do whatever seems to scare me, despite of that old monster being continuously triggered.
    > it would hold me back of going to the summer retreat if I let the fear take over, but I am working myself up to organizing my trip at some point anyway..
    > planned my next exam for march 3, have a lot of studing to do still, but it is interesting material.
    > yesterday did all the Parkinson spectrum stuff, today it is schizophrenia..
    > that Parkinson is horrible, in most cases, and the medication can ease some of the symptoms sometimes, but can also cause huge side effects.
    > this is one disease that would make me want to step out before it got to a certain point, would never want to go through it knowing what can lay ahead..
    > sleep disorder conbined with scary dreams when sleeping or psychotic hallucinations while awake, a lot of pain in muscles and joints, bladder disorders and very bad obstipation, frozen face and debilitating movement degradation, cognitive increasing impairments, psychiatric disorders, it sounds worse than anything I have studied about so far, and it is illustrated by one Parkinson patient I met and lived with as a roommate for a while.
    > a really awful disease, one of the many of course..
    > M

    • Leslie says:

      Hi Margaret,
      An interesting article I was reading was how Parkinson’s and Schizophrenia are similar neurological ailments differentiated only by levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine in the
      sufferer’s brain. That is, Parkinson’s develops due to a dopamine deficiency and Schizophrenia from a dopamine excess.

      The brave author detailed how he wished he had Parkinson’s instead of Schizophrenia and could say so when queried about his part-time only work etc. He feels people readily accept Parkinson’s as a legitimate excuse. However, when he responds truthfully that he has a mental illness Schizophrenia – he finds people question its legitimacy & see it as ‘just an excuse.’

      Thinking of you with your Mom. Such changes each day – each hour at times it seems. No wonder it can be frustrating and confusing at times… So glad you can balance it all with your brother, your studies, friends and of course the ever adorable kitties!
      All the best,
      ox L.

  51. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > I agree with the rest, well done!
    > and Phil, I found what you said about the pattern very much to the point, and it does show what a nice person you are to feel concerned about how Patrick might feel about what you said.
    > it was nice to add that second comment.
    > M

  52. Phil says:

    In the news today, Israel released the Adolf Eichmann plea papers. He was the architect of the Nazi Holocaust and part of the story is copied below:
    “I detest as the greatest of crimes the horrors which were perpetrated against the Jews and think it right that the initiators of these terrible deeds will stand trial before the law now and in the future,” he wrote.
    He attempted to absolve himself of blame, telling Israel’s then-President Yitzhak Ben-Zvi: “It is not true… that I myself was a persecutor in the pursuit of the Jews… but only ever acted ‘by order of’.”
    His plea for clemency was rejected and he was hanged in Ramle prison

    I just thought this might be of interest in light of the past discussion.

  53. Margaret says:

    > today is Holocaust remembrance day.
    > the total number of people killed is about 13 million, including the political prisoners, minorities, like Roma, prisoners of war, psychiatric patients, disabled people etc.
    > only in Auschwitz the number of people killed is more than 1 million.
    > difficult to deny as take for example the tattood numbers on people’s wrists that shows the German tendency to keep records.
    > of course some of the actions were secret anyway, and big efforts were also made to make some stuff disappear.
    > it is to me a bit surreal all that denial crap can take so much space here just because of one person’s hang for controversy and attention.
    > my apologies to all the persons that have suffered from this. it is shameful.
    > M

    • Jack says:

      Margaret: On reading this comment of yours I was inspired to; not defend Patrick , but for another perspective on how I see what was taking place. Not that how I see it, is definitive in any way; just my feeling on the matter.

      I feel he thinks he is expressing his sentiments on all these matters. Sadly, as I see it, he is proselytizing his beliefs sort of with a ‘missionary zeal’ and the sad thing is, I fear, he does not fully realize the resentment he creates for himself. He becomes inordinately angry when I quote back his own words to him; but thinks it ok to attempt a conversion job on the rest of us. He seemingly feels he is revealing a “truth”, whereas I see him promoting nothing more than some deeper feeling within himself.

      We all came to do this therapy for our own very good ‘hopes’ and reasons and for many of us we were willing to pay the price, whatever that price was. It would have been lovely if the suggestion at the onset was only going to be a six months process. Sadly, it turned out the process for the most part takes way longer than that. I don’t think Art Janov was lying, but as I read him, that is what he THEN felt would be all that was necessary. Since he seemingly acknowledges, it takes way more than that for most of us.

      I do feel psycho analyzing anyone, Patrick or otherwise, is not particularly productive. Of course, we are all entitled to our own view of what is taking place.


  54. Margaret says:

    > Leslie,
    > I do understand that guy feeling really bad about the stigma that hangs onto schizophrenia, people have a lot of negabive byass about those people being completely unpredictable and dangerous.
    > also it is a stigma for life,as the medical criteria so far focus on labelling it but do not pay any attention to ‘unlabelling’ those who never relapse after their first attacks of the disease.
    > now it is not a small disiease of course, and actually it is not similar to Parkinson completely as the dopamine in sShizofrenia is in some brain parts too active and in other parts not active enough, what makes an entirely different approach necessary.
    > also Parkinson cnnot really be treated or slowed down or stopped, only some symptoms may be temporarily relieved.
    > some people are lucky to have a mild form with mostly only tremors, but most have a very nasty future ahead.
    > so that guy might reconsider his wishes, really.
    > at least that is what I have been learning so far.
    > today is the day of the autism spectrum studying..
    > I should go to my new gym and condition class but feel a bit ill, throat aching, sweaty, cough, so again won’t go this week, don’t feel like workig myself into a sweaty state in a place with open windows today, might be good but don’t feel up to it.
    > feel bad about it as I could use the exercise and socializing. well, more fridays to come I guess, will spend some of my energy cleaning up here and changing sheets etc. to feel a bit better…
    > I have just had a cold a few weeks ago, but they say a flu epidemy is starting up here, hope that’s not it…
    > how are you and Barry doing?
    > do you plan to go to the summer retreat?
    > I’d like to make it there, but as I feel right now it feels like a dreadful task, very scary somehow, sigh..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Isn’t Parkinson’s usually with older people? Schizophrenia can be so severe that you don’t have a life; like in my brothers case.
      This week I saw a report of a recent study that has researchers excited. They have identified some genes which are involved with “pruning” unneeded neural synapses.
      The genes identified apparently become overactive in adolescence and are associated with schizophrenia.
      I thought to see if Dr. Janov would comment about this in his blog.

      • Phil says:

        I have to wonder wonder if synapse pruning is normal or desirable at all. Maybe it also has something to do with neurosis. Maybe it’s involved with how we cut ourselves off form our childhood histories, and in excess causing schizophrenia.

    • Leslie says:

      Thanks Margaret,
      I appreciate your clarification and knowledge. I did not check what the author claimed – and of course know we both empathize with either or any disease and/or disability.

      The Retreat will be amazing!! – as you know. I can imagine the prospect of the big journey etc. feels daunting at this point – but then you get there and ahhhh…Nothing else like it in the world – with the best people from the world over. Each and every time has been such an unique and incredible journey for me. It is the most unbelievable, yet calming thought to realize – all I have to be is MYSELF. I love that and where else does that happen??
      Unfortunately, for this summer only 1 of us can go & we are hoping Barry can.

  55. Phil says:

    I had an interesting dream last night. I was at the summer retreat and two local friends were there with me, but they did not seem to be participating, only observing. The therapists were new and were giving unusual assignments, like reading passages from books. In group I seemed to be stuck in a tangle of people and then started having birth feelings, pushing with my head against pillows. Then I woke up. There was some more to it that I don’t recall. I had a verydeep sleep and woke up today feeling quite good and refreshed.
    I think this is related to an extreme work out I had at the gym last evening. Maybe that lessens some of my physical defenses as well as burns off the energy of some feelings. However, other times working out like this in the evening has led to sleeping poorly and struggling with feelings coming up for days afterwards. I enjoy what I do at the gym, mostly playing racquetball, yoga once a week, and a few minutes spent on machines.

  56. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > that certainly is a very interesting dream!!
    > M

  57. Margaret says:

    > hi Phil,
    > there is also a familiar kind of Parkinson that can start earlier, and sometimes even at a young age.
    > Schizofrenia has a very wide range of individual differences, from very mild or with only one temporary outbreak to very severe and disabling and chronical.
    > there is also a big difference to how people respond to the different medications.
    > so with schizofrenia chances are not all bad it can be controlled or will even remain sleeping, but with Parkinsons the prognoses are usually not good at all, and mostly medication only helps for a limited amount of time to ease the symptonms and that same medication has also a lot of side effects.
    > they are both diseases one wishes never to have to deal with.
    > I am very sorry your brother has such a bad case.
    > today have been reading about the autism spectrum and its neurological symptoms.
    > there is still so much to be discovered about these diseases, about the genetic factor and the environment factors, like too high testosterone levels during pregnancy might be a factor as well for autism, or for some kinds of autism as there too it is a wide range.
    > I notice how there is a tendency to regard the physical part as a cause generally, sometimes disregarding the aspect of the impact of the emotional and other kind of environment actually shaping the neurological state of the brain.
    > for example prolonged stress is proved to cause atrophy of some important brain areas, in which case the cause is reversed so to say.
    > i find all of this very interesting and regret I get into it so late in my life, and wish I had a magic wand to create all kind of scientific research settings to connect what I experienced so far in my primal history with the physical and other evidence out there.
    > it would be nice to find connections and the middle way between the cognitive science and the so called psycho analitical approach, a very unprecise label that seems to cover most of the more feeling-oriented approaches.
    > the label psychodynamic approach sounds better to me.
    > some diseases have a strong physical genetic factor, but mostly there needs to be a trigger from outside, like stress for example, to activate that wrong set of genes.
    > like the numbers of cases of schizofrenia are interesting, there are more cases in urban surroundings, more on the northern parts of the globe that are far from the equator,, more among immigrants, etc.
    > it can be depressing to learn about all what can go wrong, but it is also a fascinating field as to try and unravel how it can be avoided possibly or treated.
    > there is a very very long way to go there, and all I would love to be able to do is to put one timy drop into the ocean to enhance the attention for early feelings/emotions as an important factor in a person’s physical and emotional development.
    > might never happen, as also I would have a very very long way to go still to be able to dream of getting something published, and would probably never have the means to do the proper research and struggle with al the others wanting to publish, but hey, one needs a dream and a goal to keep going, and this is what feels kind of natural as it really interests me and matters to me..
    > maybe I would get a bit sidetracked if a boyfriend would cross my path, but so far that risk seems small…
    > i do need something though to keep me going, in order not to give in to the dark dark feelings of the small hours of the night..
    > M

    • Margaret says:

      With this paper which shows possible genetic causes for schizophrenia, which is probably the area getting the most research, it might have the impact of stimulating even more genetic research and even less attention given to environmental factors and emotions I’m afraid.
      I think there are an unfortunate large number of people with severe schizophrenia and psychosis. These are people who in this country in past years were housed in institutions. Now a lot of them are the homeless found in large cities.

  58. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > mmm, I would think most of the pu
    > runing is good to create more space and energy for the connections that start forming networks by being used, but of course there might be some truth in what you say too.
    > but on the other hand, if real pruning would occur due to primal pain, we would not be able to restore some of the damage by reconnecting the networks that were shut off by allowing the pain to run its way..
    > there might be several different functions going on there, pruning and ‘disconnecting’ in some way, with the disconnection causing some kind of stress reaction to try to undo it, causing actouts of all kinds but also forming the gate to reconnection under the right circumstances.
    > wish we could do some groups inside mri scanners, smiley, and do some fmri studies on what goes on when a feeling is on the rise and then gets connected.
    > would be extremely interesting..
    > what reminds me of another interesting fact, which is with autism the amygdala and hippocampus area if I remember well, have much more dense cell material than ‘normal’ brains, making them probably also extremely sensitive to any cause of stress, social stress like looking in someon’s eyes or too much input or change of routine.
    > those are the thoughts that go to my brain while I read about this..
    > it is stimulating to feel how my curiosity and interest get tickled..
    > M

  59. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > I think when they use the word ‘pruning’ it means the entire neuron is destroyed, but I might be wrong.
    > synapses can be deactivated too I think, the average neuron has about 5000 .
    > I really like learning about those things.
    > at some point during gestation the foetus forms 250.000 new neurons a minute, and I don’t remember the exact number we have upon being born, but a large part of them are pruned eventually shortly after..
    > Phil, could you please mail me that comment you posted under my name, as I do not receive the comments I supposedly post..
    > thanks, M

    • Jack says:

      Margaret I grabbed Phil’s comment under your graviar: here it is:-

      With this paper which shows possible genetic causes for schizophrenia, which is probably the area getting the most research, it might have the impact of stimulating even more genetic research and even less attention given to environmental factors and emotions I’m afraid.
      I think there are an unfortunate large number of people with severe schizophrenia and psychosis. These are people who in this country in past years were housed in institutions. Now a lot of them are the homeless found in large cities.

  60. Phil says:

    A quote from the report in the New York Times:
    “The researchers pieced together the steps by which genes can increase a person’s risk of developing schizophrenia. That risk, they found, is tied to a natural process called synaptic pruning, in which the brain sheds weak or redundant connections between neurons as it matures.”
    It doesn’t sound like they are describing neurons being pruned, which is hopeful.

  61. Sylvia says:

    Hi Phil. I think Janov believes that mental illness (depression, psychosis, bi-polar, etc.) gets its start in the womb. And our early experiences of our moms having a difficult pregnancy can affect us, making us short of the neurotransmitters necessary for mental stability. Supposedly this can affect the baby’s genes and that susceptibility to mental illness can be passed on to her/his offspring too.
    I think Janov believes therapy can work with psychotic patients but a residential environment would be necessary. An alternative to life-long medications would be something if the mental health institutions ever grasped the concept of reliving trauma to get well or the acknowledgement of psychosis’ origin.

    • Phil says:

      I wonder Janov would say about the significance of the recent research on synaptic culling and how that might fit with his theories.

      • Phil says:

        The thing about this theory of excessive synaptic pruning in adolescence causing schizophrenia is that it ignores the problems of those individuals earlier in childhood.
        I think that the signs are there, it doesn’t spring up out of nowhere in adolescence.

  62. Margaret says:

    > I hate to think of how it must be to be put out in the streets while suffering from schizofrenia…
    > it is incomprehansible that happened and is still the case..
    > M

    • I would think this would help to build character in one’s ruggedly individualistic pursuit of the American Dream without being neurotically dependent on others during adulthood, wouldn’t it? I bet the Brawny paper towel guy deep in the Idaho woods would agree!

      • Sylvia says:

        Guru: Maybe a thin line between Brawny man and Ted Kacynski, the Unabomber living isolated and hating the world. Anyway, cannot imagine someone with mental illness would not be better off with good housing even if dependent. But of course, you were joking.

      • Phil says:

        You know that there is the opposite neurosis of being stubbornly independent and imagining not needing much from anyone. That’s the one I have tended to suffer from.
        It’s become clear to me it’s because I didn’t get a lot of what I needed as a child from my parents and then cut myself off from the pain of those unfulfilled needs.
        The US does seem to suffer from this as a society. It’s too expensive to properly take care of the mentally ill, we might have to tax all those millionaires and billionaires a bit more to provide for the homeless

        • Phil: Well, I’m glad you were able to at least fend for yourself financially. Better that than to be totally helpless and no one willing to help, anyway. You can retire and not have to worry about the rat race anymore.

          • Phil says:

            I hope so, but not quite yet, and no one knows what the future will bring.
            I guess that’s why the stock markets are going up and down like crazy on any little news.

  63. Guru, When my daughter was in third grade she and her classmates had to come up with the proverbial ” science project” . Since I am not as skilled as some I was not able to do my child’s assignment as so many parents do. Ha! In any case she had to first find a concept and then create the actual experiment and display. She decided that she wanted to determine which of several paper towels was actually the strongest. Bad news Guru, the man you aim to be was fronting all along. Despite the tough exterior it turns out he needs as much help as the rest of us! 🙂 Gretch

  64. Sylvia says:

    I remember when they were looking for the Unabomber. Am not familiar with the other mathematician (Alexander), but read a little about him.

    Read some interesting things about Kacynski on Wikipedia that might explain his obsessiveness.
    When he was nine mos. old he had hives real bad and placed in hospital with no visitors allowed, the Drs. not sure of its cause, and treated several times at the hospital over an eight-month period. His mom wrote: “Baby home from hospital and is healthy but quite unresponsive after his experience.” Because he was so smart he skipped 6th grade onto 7th and recalled not fitting in with the other older children and being bullied. Anyway, he had a tough time relating to people and basically feared them. It is an interesting piece on the making of a vengeance-seeking recluse.

    So much for Friday night.
    Isn’t ‘Bounty’ the quicker-picker-upper? and strong, too.

  65. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > I relate to what you said about the neurotic idea of ‘not needing anyone’, which was actually what I was proud about upon entering therapy..
    > have come a lon way since.
    > this night had a dream about several threatening things, the last being one that kept coming towards me/us, first from a distance, like a boat aiming right at me speeding in my direction threatening to hit me.
    > then it became several times the same boat coming from any direction me, or us, would turn to to run, every side that same boat was coming up closer and closer pretty fast.
    > at some point it felt like I was in a boat myself, and had the choice to try and avoid the other boat that seemed about to hit me, from all sides, or to let my vessel take its own way.
    > I remember coming to the conclusion that the trick was not to try and steer anything, to let things go their way, and yes, from that moment on the threat disappeared.
    > later on laying awake I got overwhelmed with the deep basic sense of being alone, with only myself as company, in a very basic way. for a moment I was able to grasp it and accept it, and for a oment it made me feel like an adult woman instead of well, a girl,a child,, non mature..
    > it felt sad but also like a stronger position if I could hold onto that, being mature but accepting the deep deep sadness of the aloneness, it is hard to explain.
    > it seems to be like almost two different aspects, that being alone , or feeling alone, and the loneliness of not having enough company in my daily life, which makes it all harder.
    > things are so much easier when one has a steady (nice) companion in life, the world then becomes a much more friendly place sort of, more pleasurable and safe..
    > and Phil, I remember now you are right about the pruning, that is used for the synapses being unactivated.
    > the similar process with neurons has another name, something like ontose or well, I don’t remember the name properly, could look it up and might do so eventually, just to get it out of my system, smiley, hate to look for a word and not find it..
    > Leslie, that’s too bad that only one of you can go to the retreat, hope some solutions rise so you can go both!
    > M

  66. Phil says:

    Very interesting dream and how you felt afterwards, accepting the deep basic sense of being alone. Maybe that starts to happen after getting through all the unfulfilled childhood needs, which sounds like a good thing, and if being alone is your choice.
    We watched a depressing movie last night called “Beasts of no Nation”. It’s about the young boys in Africa forced and trained to become soldiers after most of the people in their villages have been killed in the war. These boys go on to become beasts who commit all kinds of atrocities while being drug intoxicated,
    Someone had recommended it but it was excessively violent and just emphasized the senseless nature of wars.

  67. Sylvia & Gretchen:

    If you were a CEO or a director of a paper towel company having to answer to shareholders by increasing profitability, which option would you choose?

    a) Bounty paper towels, with its generic package design yet superior, more expensive towel quality?
    b) Brawny paper towels, with a sexy, macho lumberjack image that many stay-at-home moms & wannabe tough guys love to have in the kitchen or workshop, only the towel quality is 10% inferior and cheaper than Bounty?

    (assuming both brands sell the same number of units)

    I think this would plumb the deepest crevasses of the Science Fair question 😀

    • Jack says:

      I just wonder what feeling/s are going on for you to ask the question in the first place

      I do have to admit that most of your comment fly right over my cuckoo’s nest, but then I’m not into the varying brands of paper towels. I don’t even see your sense of humor … but then I suppose my humor is limited … maybe due to something that happened in the womb. Not gotten to that one yet. 😦


      • OK Jack, I will break it down for you a bit more:

        Gretchen explained that her daughter’s science fair project showed Brawny paper towels being inferior in quality compared to the others. I tried to give a deeper explanation that the highest executives of the company making Brawny likely used the valuable brand equity of a macho lumberjack to enable the executives to cheapen the base materials of the paper towels themselves for higher profits. People are so enamored with the macho image that it allows the corporate decision makers to make higher margins with a cheaper product than a generic towel package design would allow.

        Does that help?

        • Jack says:

          Only in-so-far as I feel your main focus about anything is “Money”. I personally find that a bad choice for a pursuant in life. I even think Patrick had some word for you, with you, respecting the limits of it’s usefulness in life. So no; it did not help.

          You know my feelings about it … I presume. If not, then I too will break it down for you.

          I kinda feel you missed the essence of Gretchen;s remark … on the other hand may I missed it also.


    • Sylvia says:

      Guru, I think homemakers soon realized the deception in advertising. I know I came to think of the Brawny man as a fake. And you have to wonder about the connection to paper towels…is he going to chop down a tree right there and make paper products?
      Think that people catch on pretty quickly and are only fooled for a bit and know what is a good reliable product. The ad-men might do better to have a spotted owl okaying the product as an approved paper source. Go green.

  68. Sylvia: Let me just drop this thought as a placeholder since I still have a few minutes to fool around. The Brawny man of the 1970’s has been widely snickered at as resembling a vintage male porn star until the image was updated in the 2000’s.

    I’m just wondering if buying Brawny paper towels was a semi-prurient adult extension of girls wanting protective teddy bears, Why would you worry about the inferior stuffing underneath a teddy bear if it subconsciously brings you protection and comfort?

  69. Sylvia says:

    Larry, very enjoyable songs and dance of the logs. Such fun images of log waltzes, danger and skill, a thrill.

    • Larry says:

      Would you marry a log driver, Sylvia?

      Afterward I didn’t feel good about posting the Lumberjack song, seeing as there are people having great difficulty struggling with personal transgender issues. I would delete it if I could.

      • Larry says:

        I would replace it maybe with the Blackfly song, another gentle ribbing of the romantic image of working in the woods.

      • Sylvia says:

        Larry. I must say there is something alluring about seeing those men so agile on those streaming logs. Must awaken the cheerleader gene rooting for someone to win in a game or a rodeo.
        Monty Python is always a hoot. The English have a different sense or feeling for transgender, I think. I see men dressed up as women characters more than the US. Isn’t there a Dame Edith (not sure of name) that is a beloved character. Anyway, nice that you are sensitive to those struggling with it.

  70. Otto Codingian says:

    Godamn, it’s cold! Kid is in the kitchen with no shirt on but he has an apron on. The soon-to-be phd. Cooking with Ms. Z. Not sure what they cooking. Not sure I care. I should care. I should be in there like the Rostovs and the Pierre Bazukov (War and Peace) having a happy-go-lucky joyous family moment. But I am in my bedroom, watching Battle of Midway on my computer, with the short tailed black cat and Sophie the dachshund who is sad because her 2 dog buddies are dead. I went to the PI today to cry in the little room. Actually I did not think I was going to feel a damn thing, because I am doing my hardest to cram food down my gullet these days to kill all feeling. Apparently, it is not working at killing feeling, however my stomach is bulging quite a bit. I cried over Katrina the cat, who I had to watch die at the vets this week. I cried hard and loud to the 80’s beat of Lene Lovich and Missing Persons. I could not have cried loud like that at home. I feel stupid that I have to go to the PI to cry. But I guess it is the same as people going to church to pray, or to a tanning salon to get brown. I rarely feel anything come up at home anyway, and I don’t feel very safe to cry unless Z is not here. I also listened to “Let Me Show You Where its at” and the crying expanded into me losing my beautiful home in Hollywood with my somewhat-caring Aunt and Uncle and 3rd grade girlfriend and another friend and the greatest stability that I had had in my short life for a long time. My grandmother had moved us to Long Beach and my life was shattered once again. I was getting insights about how friends were so good in my life, whether they were animal or people. The Siamese cat I lost this week reminded me of the Siamese cat that I eventually got in Long Beach. That cat was a big part of keeping myself together, although I always seemed to make people- friends too, though I have no idea how that happens to a fucking autistic scaredy-cat. It felt like the crying wanted to go to yet another level, but I guess 40 minutes of it was enough, so I left. I don’t feel any relief, as usual, well maybe I will be less angry tomorrow. Probably will have to go down and help out the other kid, who has to go to work finally. His wife gave birth this week but by cesarian, and her foot became numb and stayed numb, and Z and I offered to help, even though the kid told us a while back that she thinks we are shit. Speaking of anger, some bitch nurse boss complained about me at work last week in an email to my bosses, and I feel so humiliated that I cannot get it off of my mind.
    Dumb ass bitch nurse: IT Leaders: This is our second request to expedite this work order originated Jan 14th and another work order on the 16th for the same issue. May we know who is the supervisor of Otto Codingian? This work order has been open for more than a week.User(s) assigned on this PC are not able to get into their programs which means they cannot even give patients needed appointments and other business. This is in violation to (some dumbass super-boss’s) goal of patients having access to their providers. This is a critical part of patient care for our department.” Signed Dumb-ass bitch RN, StupidheadCunt
    Then one of my dumbass mid-level bosses to another prissy-ass bitch boss: “D, can you go take care of this right now please?” (dumbass boss should go take care of it, he set up this whole program to make himself look good)
    Prissy-ass bitch boss reply:” Per my phone conversation I had just now with (Stupid-asshole-supposed-compujter expert-wannabe-fuckface-admin-guy-who-gets-in-my-way-anytime-I-go-over-to-help-those-assholes—my name for this asshole), I’m going to bring a new computer to replace this problematic PC in the next 10 minutes. See you soon. “
    Prissy-ass boss “D”reply later: “I’ve replaced the computer with a new..blah blah blah. It actually took me 11 minutes instead of apoligies”
    My fat-ass motherfucking top boss reply to Prissy-ass boss’s reply: “You the MAN, “D”!”
    Stupid nurse boss again: “IT Leaders–I value your time, my apology on having to reach out to this level for a work that could have been handled by your technicians (STUPID FUCKING RETARD OTTO CODINGIAN). Rest assured we utilize every avenue to work this on the proper level and given timeframe before escalating to leadership. Our In-house IT expert (Stupid-asshole-supposed-computer-expert-wannabe-fuckface-admin-guy-who-gets-in-my-way-anytime-I-go-over-to-help-those-assholes ) utilizes his expertise and capabilities even prior to opening a ticket or reaching out to your technicians. Although with his access limitations, some work is impossible. Your sincere diligence is very much appreciated.”
    (This fuckhead is probably the one who is corrupting all these computers by trying to hack admin access into them.)
    Not an apology to me, and actually she is telling my fuck-ass bosses in a passive-aggressive way that they don’t know how to manage their fucking creephole dipshit cretin worker–ME!
    I emailed 2 bosses how I felt they did not support their workers and got one lame reply, and if they talk to me Monday I am going to remind them that I was only doing my work the way that they wanted—oldest tickets first, screw the priority level, and this bitch was way down the list time-wise, and they need to tell that bitch of THEIR error, and that they accept the responsibility and that I am one of their best workers. And they need to say this via email to her and all previous recipients of the original bullshit diatribe she sent out so that everyone sees the correction.To top it off, Prissy-ass boss has work orders that are open for over a month! fuckheads

  71. Otto Codingian says:

    By the way, I don’t think people catch on pretty quick. People are easy to fool. See Nazi Germany for an example of this. And Imperial Japan. And the average voter in the U.S. A lot of us are mindless sheep. Not necessarily me. The propaganda only gets more and more clever, but images still make us latch onto shit ideas very easily. And if you use paper towels in the toilet, because you ran out of toilet paper, hope you have a plunger. I am married, so I think we must have gotten a plunger as a wedding present.

    • Sylvia says:

      Yes, Otto, people wanting to be fooled into thinking others know best or have ‘the answers’ would explain D. Trumps popularity. ‘Make America Great Again’? How simple it all really is….not.

  72. Otto Codingian says:

    Images. I wish you could see the ad that Monsanto has in Good Housekeeping. Latin mother with her little girl with Indian looks and Indian pigtails. They are in a store examining a clean beautiful bell pepper or something. The verbiage in swirly font says, we should all be picky eaters. Lets have a conversation on how we are going to feed an ever-growing population. This is from the company that poisons Latin and other 3rd world farmers in their fields (and probably everyone when we eat their produce) with their toxic chemicals, and patents their seeds in devious ways so that the farmers have to buy them. And yet, most Americans probably think of Monsanto’s Green Revolution as a good thing. ha.

  73. Otto Codingian says:

    I have to say one more thing. About this song Show you where its at. Joyous double-entendre Black gospel (ha). Show you where it’s at, i was thinking about when we moved to Long Beach. You know how when you move, people or kids show you where stuff is in the neighborhood, the liquor store where you buy candy and soda, and you look around the new house, here’s your bedroom. I was getting some real big tears from that song speaking to me today. Just got chills a minute ago thinking of this insight or why this song means so much to me. It was a song of that time period, and also there was some other joy associated with it, maybe my new friends showing me stuff, maybe my joyous cousins coming over and showing me happy stuff about life. Back when i still had some hope. Where did my fucking joy go?

  74. Patrick says:

    I literally did not open the blog for a week. I was ‘disgusted’ and with myself mostly and mostly because I lose my cool and degenerate in calling Jack ‘names’. To be clear I have nothing ‘against’ gays at all so it’s even in my own terms a ‘weak’ name. Plus I know it does not bother Jack at all to be called those ‘names’ he dealt with a lot worse in that regard long long ago. So that’s the most thing I am/get ‘disgusted’ with myself about. It’s not even being ‘me’ it’s weak in that it does not affect the ‘target’ and it makes me look very bad (I feel). So there and I suppose l”sorry Jack’ not that it seems to bother you anyway.

    I kind of scrolled/read through all the comments now and if it matters to give a few reactions. I liked Phil’s digest of my ‘beliefs’ very much thought he apologized right after for saying it no need to apologize Phil I thought it was excellent accurate and funny to boot. Here it is again I liked it so much

    “Vaccines are useless and even damaging, HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, it’s caused by the drugs used to treat it., the Holocaust didn’t happen, 911 was an inside job, the moon landings didn’t take place, the recent terrorist attacks here and in France were part of a conspiracy, and I probably forgot a few. Oh yea, primal therapy doesn’t work, it’s a good idea but practiced all wrong, none of us have actually benefited from it.”

    Thank you Phil I could not have put it better myself. I think I will ‘keep’ it and if someone on say a ‘dating site’ wants to know what I am all about I will just post that lol. That should mean the end of the ‘date’ which is about the same that happens anyway lol again.

    I had a few other reactions: Guru it’s not so much that I ‘changed my mind’ I was already mouthing off about how nasty Israeli behavior is (NOT the holocaust I was ‘agnostic’ on that but speculated that if something has such ‘nasty’ effect I might wonder about the ‘thing itself’) and Daniel was on the blog actively at the time and suggested I watch “Shoah” so I decided to listen to him and did that. And as I said at the time I DID find it very moving in places (there was one scene where a Hungarian jailer who worked for the Nazis at the singing of the Hungarian national anthem by a group of Hungarians about to enter a ‘gas chamber’ just decided to join them! And they were saying “no” you live and tell the story later. Well I found that very moving and could sort of imagine myself similarly say if the Irish national anthem………………..anyway you get the point.

    But see now well in light of all I have read and it is as clear as it can be there NEVER were any ‘gas chambers’ ……………..see where does that leave me? How about “emotionally manipulated” There are lots of examples like that in the movie……………..I think it opens about Treblinka and this ‘story’ about how the Nazis first of all buried like I dunno a million ‘gas chamber victims’ and later DUG THEM UP and burned them all and threw the ashes in a river or something to avoid detection……………..and I have read a lot about Treblinka now and well that’s the most absurd and exaggerated story I don’t know what to say. Treblinka was a ‘transit camp’ most likely nobody died there the field is still there undisturbed…………… that’s another aspect ’emotional manipulation’ that’s a big LIE in itself. Nobody should be making those kinds of movies it would be called ‘hate speech’ as indeed Gretchen does!! Can you imagine if someone made a movie about Jews showing them in any kind of bad light what a hullabaloo this would cause yet the Germans have to listen and see all this crap year after year and cannot say anything. If they do the go to Jail and in their own country!! What does that tell you……………

    Ok enough about that and of course I admit some very nasty things happened to Jews in that war being displaced and moved around to ghettos and camps well that’s not very nice. Neither thought is the bombing of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima/Nakasaki but I don’t see those ‘victims’ being compensated and legally being called ‘holocaust victims’. So my point above all is the imbalance of it and worse the continuing effects of it. The ‘holocaust’ is used and it seems will be forever and ever for appalling behavior so that was where I got interested in the subject and sort of where I come back to

    Anyway the comments were interesting to read I find Gretchen’s sort of the ‘weakest’ she shows no curiosity or desire to ‘learn’ anything new……………….I suppose like ‘primal’ to her it is all ‘fixed and decided’ well to me it is not not by a long shot……………….

    • Phil says:

      It seems possible to me that you are attracted to ideas and theories simply because they are unconventional and/or controversial. The theories I listed which you believe in all seem to depend on massive errors, or massive lies and conspiracies to be valid, and I think supporting them reflects a very cynical outlook.

      • Patrick says:

        Phil – I can see why you would say that or think that it still kind of leaves out the question if they are ‘true’ or not. See I might also say Phil that you seem attracted to ideas and theories that are conventional and middle of the road. The theories you seem to support and believe in all depend on a kind of ‘majority rule’ and appear to be just the ‘dog food’ that is served to the compliant and un-knowing masses and reflects a very kind of go along to get along type of mindset. No need to ‘think’ or investigate for yourself and that does not work for me.

        • Sylvia says:

          Perhaps suspicion and mistrust for the accepted proofs or facts has its foundation in personal experience.

        • Phil says:

          Actually I have investigated all of these things fairly extensively as they have been of interest to me, with the goal of learning the truth.
          This has already been said but it’s worth repeating; you seem to pick and choose poor sources for your theories and ignore the rest. It could be you just don’t know what qualifies as a good source, or you don’t want to know.
          When something has so much evidence and documentation backing it up, like the Holocaust, it is no longer just an idea or theory but a fact. The only way it could be better proven to me would be if I was there myself as a witness.


  75. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > it feels good you can share all this stuff here.
    > I can totally relate to a cat, or two, feeling like a freind, or family, keeping one connected somehow.
    > and also the other stuff you write about, it is good you share it, or well, that is how it feels to me, I am glad you do.
    > and Phil, the word for programmed neuron death seems to be apoptose, but in this textbook it is mainly used for the adult brain, while I seem to remember it was also used for cleaning up unused neurons in the very young brain, but maybe it was still another word, might look it up at some point..
    > not that it matters, smiley just a loose end I want to weave into my carpet..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      I sent Janov a message on his blog with the hope he will comment on that topic of synaptic pruning and schizophrenia in relation to primal theory. The word for programmed cell death for cells of any type is apoptosis.
      I am just curious because this recent research on excessive synaptic pruning is being hailed as a major finding.

  76. Margaret says:

    > today, changing from studying to reading a very ‘easy’ kind of book for a while, I ran into a part where the central person, a woman, buries the last things she has from her mom, and talks to her in the meantime.
    > she had not seen her mom for years, after a childhood full of mixed feelings, as as it turned out later, her mom had some kind of bipolar disorder.
    > at the time they had their last argument that was not discovered yet, and they had not seen each other until finally the daughter found out her mom had died in an accident nearby the psychiatric clinic she had found shelter in.
    > of course hearing al of that had raised many feelings in her, apart of the anger she had already felt, guilt and sadness and forgiveness and a lot of grieving, as there had also been many good times before the mother got so angry at her daughter for becoming more independent she told her to get lost and never come back which the daughter did.
    > well, long explanation to say how the words the daughter spoke, to her mom while burying the stuff, saying she forgave her and also begging her to forgive her, and more, and the music playing was Edith Piaf, ‘je ne regrette rien’, also my mom’s favourite song…
    > that triggered me, all the need and pain and understanding and forgiveness and sadness, the main feeling while crying being something like ‘sorry I could not give you what you needed, love me, love me, it feels like I am not good enough, love me, let me, let me know you like me how I am’..
    > not fully done with it, but the switch was definitely turned on…
    > my brother brought her here yesterday and it was kind of ok, but it is clear she is on her own wavelength and we feel more and more the pain of needs that will remain unfulfilled and the frustration of not being able to make things right..
    > the good part is I still feel closer and closer with my brother, and that is very nice..
    > M

  77. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > it is probably pointless to say this, but what about what Gretchen said, all you decided to read, apart from watching Shoah, seemed to have been books trying to prove the holocaust did not happen.
    > did you read other books, with testimonies and pictures of what was really found back then?
    > you still seem to be stuck in your controversial pattern.
    > I suggest you start reading some good mainstream books about the history as well, or maybe even visit one of the museums or even go to a former concentration camp and take a look.
    > it is pretty crazy to say probably noone died in Treblinka.
    > some of us happen to have read quite a bit about these things as well, but hey, this is all I am gonna say about it as it will only stimulate you more to stick to your struggle.
    > it is f… frustrating you seem to drew some lesson and then boom you prove it is all back to your starting point once more.
    > your weakness is definitly not that you were not able to hurt Jack.
    > I don’t get how someone can be so smart and so dumb and deaf at the same time. it is too bad.
    > and if you stick to this craziness well, and if you really want to be ‘cool’, shut up about it please.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – you say read some good ‘mainstream books’…………..what I don’t get sometimes is how ‘conventional’ a lot of primal people (generalizing ok) are about well most everything…………EXCEPT ‘psychology’ Like that stuck me about Daniel’s comments also like suddenly there is all this great faith in conventional beliefs and approaches.All of a sudden it’s all about ‘peer review’ and ‘standard text books’ well again to repeat apply that to ‘psychology’. Nobody here does and I would say for good reason. All this ‘brain science’ blah blah blah and what do they come up with really nothing imo.

      Really this is not just to be ‘controversial’ or ‘obnoxious’ (well maybe it is on some distant feeling level) but anyway I go with what I see and can understand. And I am sorry good ‘main-stream text books’ does not do it for me in many many areas and it seems MORE and more as time goes by. So I am just letting my boat float where it does and let it do it’s thing as best as I can without ‘interference’ from my ‘head’. (will this get ‘quoted back’ -probably lol)

      Anyway Margaret this is addressed to you and maybe something for you to think about…………maybe you could ‘abandon’ primal and just get lost in your world of statistics and ‘peer review’ and all the other baloney………………I don’t think you want to do that and I don’t blame you………

  78. Patrick says:

    Speaking about good ‘main stream’ approaches we are now meant to be scared of a new virus Zika or whatever it is called. Here is a bit from a guy I really like on these kind of subjects is Jon Rappoport and below at the end the full link to his take on it

    “If you want to hide anything on this planet, twist it into a (fake) story about a virus. You’re home free.

    This is my second article on the Zika-virus scam (article archive here). I’ve been to these rodeos before: HIV, West Nile, Swine Flu, SARS, Ebola. In each case, a virus is blamed for illness and death that actually arises from other causes.

    The Zika virus, now being blamed for the birth of babies with very small heads and impaired brains, has been around for a long time—late 1940s, early 1950s—and suddenly, without warning or reason, after inducing, at best, mild illness, it’s producing horrendous damage? This is called a clue. A clue that scientific liars are lying. Furthermore, many of the women who are giving birth to deformed babies test negative for the presence of the Zika Virus.

    So, what is causing babies to be born with very small heads and brain damage? While researching my first book in 1987-8, AIDS INC., I concluded: don’t assume there is only one cause for illness. That can be very misleading. Various factors can combine to produce disease and death”

    And below is the full link I really think it is worth thinking about if we are not constantly being diverted into ‘false fears’………………this applies and is of interest of course ”in the present’ but some thoughtful people would say a lot of this ‘false fear’ kind of goes back to the ‘holocaust’ as accepted by ‘main stream’ history and science with a huge and lurid exaggeration setting the template for MORE and more of those (lies). We are now in the middle of so many of those can we see ‘straight’ anymore?………………..not much imo.

  79. Leslie says:

    Interesting stuff Sylvia. When you wrote about the Unabomber’s background I couldn’t help but think for a minute about my husband’s life. Different by a long stretch but similar too. B. was hospitalized from 18 mos.- 3years old for excema – yes excema and that is another story!

    His parents did see him on weekends, but still at that age especially – what a deficit. His parents decided to move from England to Ireland for 6 years & B. was 12 when they relocated to Canada. He was put ahead 2 years in school! The social/emotional trauma of being with 14 year olds when you are only 12 was not considered as important as his cognitive prowess. It was horrible for him to endure high school being so different in age, academics, accent etc. How did he cope? How did he become the kind, loving, caring man he is…

    B.was loved by his Dad and Granny in a true way.
    Is that the difference? Not predisposed genetically and being loved by at least 1 person. Like a tree with really strong roots that can sway in the storms but has that foundation of support to keep it standing and growing.

    So often it strikes me how simple it is – just so hard to actually have happen in our world today because of all the depraved backgrounds and tangled messes they/we create and re-create. Jack often emphasizes this – how not running/hiding from the feeling is the key – & I agree.

    • Patrick says:

      Leslie – that rings a bell with me. I put down my ‘strength’ such as it is to the fact I was ‘farmed out’ to my Grandparents from about the age of 2 to 3.5. I ‘remember’ their love to this day (tears) and what an ‘example’ it wast to me……………real love did and does exist…………..if it was not for that things would have been a lot worse. In another way though it put me at odds with things in general which you say see lasts to this day…………….I took the message that real love and real truth is usually hidden and not much to be found in the ‘real world’……………

    • Sylvia says:

      Yes, Leslie, thank goodness for those who cared about us to keep us connected to ourselves and know love.

    • Ted says:

      Yes Leslie, I remember one group in Santa Barbara where Vivian was asked if Primal Therapy can help anyone and she said, and I paraphrase: As long as someone loved you then there is hope. Those who were never loved by anyone cannot be helped.

      So, we should never underestimate the power of ;love no matter where it comes from, and we should always continue to love no matter how futile it seems or how remote it’s potential effects.

      Love is the great transducer of all feelings; it is what gave me the opportunity to heal and face the horror of my childhood. Once again, thank you to those who loved me while I was in Los Angeles on my healing journey.

  80. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > great idea, I am curious as to the possible reply.
    > I am amazed to learn how in many disorders, the brain is actually really structurally different, and often continuously changing still .
    > with schizofrenia it apppears the grey matter layer is thinner, and during the course of the disease the ventricles get larger.
    > with other disorders like bipolar or unipolar depression there is an increasing atrophy of important structures like the hippocampus and frontal lobes, and often the limbic system also gets affected more and more if the disease, or disorder becomes chronicle, then the atrophy worsens to cause cognitive problems as well.
    > it is intriguin as to where cause and result lay, as often science seems to regard mostly the physical biological aspects as being causal, while in some cases they probably are, specially when there is a large genetic influence, but from the primal point of view, the ongoing tension of unconnected feelings and their stressful influence are probably also a major cause of unhealthy and damaging influence in the long run.
    > it would be interesting to unravel the scientific outcomes and compare the data of people with similar levels of depression and compare two groups of which one group would go into their emotions/feelings and start processing them, with a group just taking antidepressants and a group not being treated for example.
    > there seems to be, at least in my textbooks, not much attention for early influences of stress, like childhood pain, while there is some attention for present environmental influences like relations or work.
    > all the ideas that go through my mind though would need large groups of patients to examine and it will certainly never be possible for me, but it is nice to start forming ideas about what might be interesting and possible.
    > it is not so much for needing proof for the usefullness of primal therapy, as I know how much benefit I get from it, but it would be nice to find a link of common interest between cognitive neuropsychology and the primal discoveries, and to help in giving it the credits it deserves.
    > just as a subject of reflection it is already stimulating..
    > M

  81. Patrick says:

    Guru – sorry I am making up for a week away here, you sort of implied to Margaret that my talking about 9/11 was somehow meant to ‘get at’ you. I want to tell you nothing could be further from the truth my (recent) interest in 9/11 has NOTHING to do with you I am even amazed you would make such a ‘connection’. I mean I accept to you there is a connection to vast amounts of death etc. but anyway I want to re-assure you nothing was meant by me.

    I also notice you said rather weakly to Margaret you remember ‘something’ about how somehow goaded you as regards your Mom’s death. This does not sound like you Guru you memory from all I have seen here is sharp and very good. All of a sudden you remember ‘something’ esp in regards to something that is so important to you. Really………….??

    As for Margaret and I may have missed it as I tend to more ‘scan’ your posts I have not seen any ‘explanation’ of what I called your fictitious memory. Call it my ‘fighting Irish’ or whatever but I don’t want to just let you get away with that. This to me is the kind of sloppiness that well becomes MORE and more ‘sloppy’ and if we are talking about stuff that happened 70 years ago holocaust who cares………………we can’t even be ‘accurate’ right here right now. I am not fooled Margaret by your standardized and politically (and primally) correct attitudes………….

    • Patrick: I don’t find this matter very important. It felt to me at the time I brought this up (1-2 weeks ago) that people wanted more detail, so I obliged. The reference to the earlier discussions with Margaret date al the way back to 2014-early 2015. Just not enough time nor worth the effort to painstakingly research “he said/she said on the blog” from that long ago, especially if not indicative of a recurring pattern of belief. Lets……let this one go, OK?

  82. Patrick says:

    STILL ‘catching up’ here Gretchen wrote this in relation to me

    “Suppose we had several members of the community who had family members murdered with guns. Someone comes on the blog and says ” that’s a lie, guns don’t kill., Guns are made of licorice and they are used at amusement parks to shoot candy into the air for the amusement of all. Anyone who says people have died as a result of guns is deluded, I know the truth and your personal experience and losses are meaningless.” . Suppose this was repeated endlessly, then yes I would allow the candy man to say his view but at some point I would say enough. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Gretch”

    That to me is so WEAK Gretchen…………….meanwhile I don’t see you reading any books or ‘educating’ yourself. Oh I forgot you know it all already and even the future is really just some mirror of the past it has all been ‘settled’ and it is all so ‘obvious’ Not by a long shot it isn’t and sometimes the ‘truth’ takes a long time to come out as you should know. I really don’t like your cheap shots at me the above being an example. I can refer you to several good books if you want to be ‘enlightened’ which somehow I don’t feel you do (to be enlightened)………………

  83. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > the only part that made sense to me in your comment was the one about the ‘distant’ feeling of wanting to be obnoxious. worth exploring but requires courage and strength and your idea of weak and strong is very distorted I am afraid.
    > and of course words like mainstream and conventional are automatically negative to you, they do not fit into your pattern so just ignore all the truths they contain and go for the controversial stuff even if it is clearly pretty crazy.
    > your choice but I won’t respond on it anymore unless I feel like doing so just to ventilate for myself.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      As usual Margaret the ‘only’ part that made sense to you is to shoe horn me into some ‘old feeling’ I am NOT discounting that but when that becomes the ONLY approach that is a sad and useless place to have reached…………….I feel sorry for you ………………and you are not the only one when ‘ideology’ like that takes over the results are predictable. See them all around………………take away the ‘validity’ of just basic ‘free thinking’ and this is what you are left with……………

  84. Patrick says:

    So I’m “candy man” ………………to me Gretchen you are “candy woman”…………………as Fox News says “YOU” decide”………………..

  85. Otto Codingian says:

    i am so pissed. sorry just trying not to say to that cnt to her face. she has her secret bank account and she is buying whatever she pleases. makeup flowers knicknacs whatever. i suggested she get a parttime job because we really have more bills than income, but she says she took too many classes tryiing to get her b.a. degree and does not have the time. well great, then stop fucking spending money bitch. she wants a joint session with bb for what reason? so she can spend the little money i have for my therapy, so she can ask me why i am not attracted to her and why i am mean to her and why dont i like her, even though i have told her that most of that is about the carelessness with which she treats money. gfy dumbass bitch. so she can have bb tell her for the hundreth time that her treatment of money is not good, and for her to lie and say she is better with money, when i see the same old behavior that has not changed for the 40 years of our fuicking marriage.

  86. Steve Martin once had a Primal on the Johnny Carson show right around the time he was filming The Jerk:

  87. Patrick says:

    Phil – this is for you but of course for anyone else interested also. So Phil before you start talking about “Zika virus titer” or words like that check this out. I remember your talk about ‘measles titer’ which was meant to explain so much I don’t think it explains anything much at all

    • Phil says:

      I would go with what the CDC put out about the Zika virus over this guy Rappoport.

      Here’s what I found on Jon Rappoport from the Encyclopedia of American loons:

      Jon Rappoport is a deliriously insane “independent researcher” and blogger. According to his bio, he “has lectured extensively all over the US on the question: Who runs the world and what can we do about it?” For the last decade, however, he has “operated largely away from the mainstream” because, as he puts it, “[m]y research was not friendly to the conventional media.” Indeed. His independent research encompasses “deep politics, conspiracies, alternative health, the potential of the human imagination, mind control, the medical cartel, symbology, and solutions to the takeover of the planet by hidden elites.”

      He is, for instance, a germ theory denialist, and in his post “Germ theory and depopulation” (discussed here) he argues that “[i]n general, so-called contagious diseases are caused, not by germs, but by IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT ARE TOO WEAK TO FIGHT OFF THOSE GERMS” (yes, the capitalization is in the original). Indeed, “GERMS ARE A COVER STORY. What do they cover up? The fact that immune systems are the more basic target for depopulation and debilitation of populations.” The main tool is of course vaccines, which are weapons the nefarious powers that be use to kill off, well, it is a bit hard to see, partially because Rappoport’s post is mostly all-caps from there. At least HIV is a cover story as well.

      He has a similar screed on flu vaccines on if that’s the kind of stuff you fancy reading. It is barely grammatical, but at least he gets his enthusiastic anger across rather well.

      Currently Rappoport seems to write on various topics for InfoWars. Recently, for instance, Rappoport and InfoWars dubbed Rep. Tim Murphy’s bill seeking to reform the way the government addresses mental health services a “diabolical legislative package,” since Rappoport thought the legislation would require almost all children to take “psychiatric meds,” and that the bill will ultimately give the federal government “a monopoly of the mind.” Yeah, that’s the way he rolls.

      Diagnosis: Hysterically crazy; and his influence is probably not quite as limited as his level of crazy should suggest.
      Posted by G.D. at 10:26 AM

      • Phil says:

        What I see about Jon Rappoport is that he denies not only HIV causing AIDS but apparently also the whole germ theory of disease. The germ theory of disease, of course, is no theory and hasn’t been for many years.

        • Patrick says:

          Phil – NO he DOES NOT!!. Jesus what are you trying to do be like some paid propagandist? You are just the kind of I don’t want to be insulting so I will call you ‘person’ who is un-fortunately these days paraded on TV as some kind of ‘expert’. Which you are NOT not even close you don’t even exhibit ‘common sense’ let alone expertise of any kind. READ his thing this morning here again about Zika. He IS an ‘expert’ or as close as you are likely to find. As I say READ this and weep weep for how un-informed and superficial your ‘thoughts’; are. Jeez Phil I thought for a minute you were getting better I DID like your description of me but now you seem to have lapsed again. Maybe it’s just some ‘old feeling’ you can’t seem to get to grips with lol

          • Phil says:

            I read that and it didn’t change a thing for me.
            Here’s Rappoport’s article denying germ theory:

            But with this I’m letting it go as it’s a waste of time.

            • Patrick says:

              Phil – I just read the first sentence of your link. He says “I want to straighten out the thinking of many people who look at germs as the primary vehicle for reducing the global population” Phil did you notice the word ‘primary’ in that sentence. You might as well ‘let it go’ as you have sort of showed again you are talking nonsense. So you might as well ‘run away’………….

  88. Margaret says:

    > Patrick, before I read the truckload of comments Ifind this morning, one reaction to what you said about ‘free thinking’.
    > if anyone is not free in his thinking here it is you, as all the directions you take are narrowed down by whatever drives you into controversy and being obnoxious.
    > it colours all your so called explorations, thoughts and emotions and convictions.
    > not what I would call freedom of thought at all, rather the opposite.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – maybe better to try to keep to specifics we won’t agree anytime soon about ‘big picture’ kind of things. But I am still wondering about your what I call ‘fictitious memory’ where you ‘remembered’ me taunting or insulting Guru about his Mom’s death. Maybe you have referred to it somewhere in the last week or so but I have not seen it. It’s OK if you don’t remember specifics just be as honest as you can you can even say you just blew something out of your head because you were feeling bad. Whatever………….just be honest come on now you can do it…………..since Patrick thinks we probably did not go to the moon he should be pretty understanding he is usually cool about someone making a mistake……………..

  89. Margaret says:

    > ha, another reaction I want to post here on your reply to phil, you boast Patrick, to be the only one with an ‘open’ mind, the only one ‘investigating’, haha, sorry, all you do in your socalled investigating is look up more ‘proof’ for those wacked ideas in the same wacked corner , from the same authors.
    > real investigating would include also studying what knowledge exists in all areas, including what you look down on as ‘conventional’, the area where the majority of experts and scientists study on and deepen their findings.
    > it is pretty ridiculous you seriously expect us to go along with your open minded investigations about let’s say noone ever travelled to the moon.
    > lunatic is a word that comes to mind.
    > if you stay much longer on this track possibly your brain gets permanently deformed and stuck forever in this loop.
    > that is sad really.
    > M

  90. Margaret says:

    Phil, going through the comments I notice you have worded much better than me what I tried to say!
    > M

  91. Daniel says:

    I assume, Patrick, that you traveled to the US by plane. I wonder if the plane you took was designed and built by engineers who relied on the established research methods of science, including standard textbooks and peer reviews, or whether you opted for a plane designed by controversial and ‘open-minded’ engineers. And likewise, if you ever get a heart attack, or just fall from a ladder, or happen to be in a car crash, will your life be saved by paramedics in an ambulance and physicians in an emergency room that are all (paramedics, ambulance, physicians) products of such textbooks and peer reviews, or would you put your life in the hands of a Kollerstrom type physician?

    Although the study of history is not as exact as that of medicine or engineering, still the same rigor and rationality and a research method is applied. I can take you through each and every point you make regarding the Holocaust and show why it is a lie you only too willingly succumbed to. But as others have said, it’s not the truth you’re after. You will always have at your disposal a bespoke conspiracy theory that will taint and discredit each piece of evidence, each testimony – even by the perpetrators themselves.

    But, although it is useless to try and convert you to reason and decency in this matter your words cannot be left unanswered, because silence would mean acceptance of what now appears in writing for all to see.

    So I’d like to start with my own grandmother. She was picked up in Brussels and taken to the assembly camp Dossin in Mechelen. On 26 September 1942 she was transported as number 1317 to Auschwitz in transport No. 11. That transport, the 11th of 27 from Belgium, was made up of 1,742 deportees, 562 men and 949 women. Among them were 467 children under the age of 15, the youngest of which was Beno Peterfeund who was 9 months old. Upon arrival in Auschwitz the SS selected 344 deportees as fit for work. The 286 men were given numbers 66,070 to 66,355 while the 58 women selected were given numbers 21,034 to 21,091. Those numbers were tattooed on their arm. The rest –1,398 people, my grandmother and Beno included – were executed immediately in the gas chambers. By the way, her name was Else, she was 54 years old.

    Ever wondered what happened to all those who like my grandmother or Beno arrived at Auschwitz but were deemed not fit to work, those who were never listed and issued numbers that were tattooed on their arm? Not one of them ever came back, not a single person survived. And we’re talking about hundreds of trainloads over weeks, months and years.

    Treblinka was even worse, because it wasn’t a part forced labor camp as Auschwitz was but an extermination one alone. Since you’ve done extensive reading on Treblinka I’m sure you’re familiar with Irmfried Eberl, the first camp commandant, a Psychiatrist fresh from Germany’s T4 (euthanasia) program. (The methodical killings, including by gas vans, began with German victims in institutions – the mentally handicapped, invalids, etc.).

    Now why would they need a euthanasia expert, along with his T4 staff, in Treblinka? I’m also sure you are familiar with some of the testimonies about him and his tenure at Treblinka, as well as the circumstances of his dismissal and replacement by Franz Stangl (if not you can consult the Wikipedia Treblinka page, it has a pretty good summary). I’m positive you’re familiar with Stangl’s testimony during his own trial and the extensive interview he gave to a British historian in 1971, where he testifies to, draws and chronicles the mass murders.

    I know your thoroughness didn’t allow you to pass by testimonies from the soviets who arrived at the scene and found that field you mentioned strewn with small pieces of bone in the soil, human teeth and lumps of human hair, among other things, and the road leading to the camp pitch black from all the human ashes that was strewn about. Nor the recent excavations by a British team from Staffordshire University that found mass graves and other findings, including some physical evidence from the gas chambers themselves.

    Enough about that. Ironically, as practically everybody here feels, your ideas say nothing about actual matters of history but everything about yourself. Also, you keep on doing damage to yourself by all this paranoid talk, speaking of open mindedness while displaying a mind completely shut. Now why do you need that?

    Instead of just raising the question I’d like to try a partial answer: You want people to tell you to go to Hell so you can have a temporary respite, however brief, from the personal certitude that you’re already there.

  92. Margaret says:

    > Daniel, great comment, thanks.
    > it really touched me as what you wrote about did happen very close to where I live, and even though I was not born yet I feel like apologizing for the behaviour of the people who informed the Germans or Belgian fascists about your family.
    > I am very very sorry.
    > and Patrick, this is so petty and trivial in comparison, but you do clearly judge me by your own standards accusing me of saying whatever, something I made up, to you just for feeling bad.
    > that is nothing that would ever even occur to me.
    > I remember how it struck me as very insensitive at least, if not more than that, a long time ago when UG had been talking about some personal stuff, that you suddenly posted a joke about a car crash , as UG remembered better than me, something with a race car.
    > I did ask him back then if he didn’t feel hurt by that.
    > and that’s it, it just came up again in its own context with a comment of UG lately, which surprised me, and that’s it.
    > you use the expert argument to defend Rapaport but then suddenly expertise has no value for the hundreds of thousands of other scientists, and you as a non-expert of course have a much better judgment about these medical matters than a medically schooled guy like Phil.
    > you are really so out of line with your arrogance, it does remind me of a balloon filled with air, which might blow up or get pinched one day and then be nothing but shreds.
    > you always discarrd whatever people try to point out to you as the heart of the matter, in your struggles, and what you referred to as wanting to be obnoxious, as an unimportant detail, well, I wish you could hear this as I say it out of true concern it does matter a lot as it might spoil the rest of your life and even drive you over the edge somehow.
    > everyone here has been very patient with you, and suportive but well, you definitely do not seem to pursue the truth but only seem to chase some profiling like the ‘misunderstood wise victim who meant well but was too smart for all those dummies’..
    > or something similar, it is getting very repetitive really, if you aim at impressing people with your smartness you completely miss that goal as yawning is more likely to be what you will get.
    > and a number of taps on the delete button.
    > M,

    • Phil says:

      Just to clear up this one point, from what I see Jon Rappoport is a journalist with a B.A. degree in philosophy. No expertise on viruses, vaccines, and science etc. His main expertise seems to writing crazy stuff which gets him some following, especially among fans of conspiracy theories.

      • Phil says:

        Why don’t you just direct all of your thoughts to conspiracy type blogs?. I am doubtful anyone here has an interest in any of this; I know I don’t; It is all so tiresome and disturbing.

    • Daniel says:

      Thank you, Margaret and Phil.
      No need to apologize M, this was done by other people at another time. By the way, in Belgium the spontaneous reaction of the population and the actions of the Belgian resistance movements helped to save many Jews. Surprisingly, though under Nazi rule that issued the same decrees to gather and deport the Jews as it did in other occupied countries, about half the Jewish population survived.

      About 25,000 Jews were hidden in wide-ranging rescue operations carried out by ordinary Belgians and the various resistance organisations. This wave of charity and sympathy was very uncommon in other countries, including neighboring Holland, that for some reason is considered to have been more helpful toward the Jews.

  93. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > much harder to be obnoxious there.
    > specially if they only listen when you agree for example.
    > there must be something in the confrontations itself Patrick must be seeking.
    > he could find out if only he’d let go of this senseless catch 22 like behavior.
    > but something seems to be very compelling in all of this.
    > M

  94. Margaret says:

    > come to think of it it reminds me of a kid jumping up and down going na na nana na, whose only way to get some attention is to misbehave.
    > M

    • Margaret says:

      > maybe this blog is also more atttractive as being ‘the outsider’ is the goal, as some form of identity.
      > only Patrick can tell..
      > M

  95. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > that’s good to hear.
    > my own dad was taken prisoner of war and had to go work in Germany for several years.
    > when he finally came back home his girlfriend had gone off with someone else.
    > a small detail in the big picture but I think for him it was a hard blow.
    > war is so incredibly senseless and crazy.
    > specially using religion as an excuse seems beyond reason.
    > I wonder if ever there will be a peaceful and stable kind of social structure that allows people worldwide to have a good life, and with the necessary respect for the environment and our fellow creatures on this small and beautiful planet, that is also fragile..
    > i am afraid there will be a lot of destruction before we might make the necessary shift of mindset. if ever we do, cause if the rich and powerful don’t it will be of little use.
    > in the meantime all we can do is our best, isn’t it?
    > M

  96. Daniel, I have struggled a bit with what to say in response to your story. I think it is because it is just unimaginable, it can’t really be processed. I can only guess at the impact on you and your family. I’m just glad you were able to talk about it here. Gretchen

  97. Sylvia, I just wanted to tell you how glad I am for your presence and feedback on the blog. After all you don’t know any of us so it’s a bit of a leap of faith. I’m happy you are here. Gretch

  98. Lastly….Guru, sometimes I think you are very brave. Gretchen

  99. Margaret says:

    > I wonder if Rapaport practices active disinformation in order to get attention.
    > it is commonly known microcephalia can be caused as well by toxoplasmosis, rubella, alcohol during pregnancy and probably some other causes.
    > this does not exclude the virus spread by the mosquitos could also be a major cause of microcephalia.
    > scientists admit openly there is yet no 100 percent certainty about it, only more and more indicative evidence.
    > it is actually very positive the international health organisation managed this time to draw attention to the danger as soon as possible and thereby frees a lot of funds for research for a cure and prevention.
    > so hey, yes, there are more cases of microcephalia, that is a known fact, no uncovered hidden reality..
    > sigh..
    > M

  100. Phil says:

    Margaret, I agree and think it’s a good thing that the authorities are taking the Zika virus seriously and urging people to take precautions. What I have read is no conclusion has been made that it is causing the additional cases of microcephalia, it is just thought to be a strong possibility.
    I look at a list of articles Rapopport has written and all of them are related to conspiracies. That’s what he does and what his audience wants.

    • Phil says:

      Apparently that conspiracy is that Zika virus would be part of a plot to introduce another new vaccine. Vaccines will be used to depopulate the world, rather then introduced genetically modified pathogenic microorganisms. Microorganisms don’t actually cause diseases, they are just a manufactured reason for designing poisonous vaccines.

      • Patrick says:

        Phil and Margaret – to maybe quote Jack (with approval) there is a lot of ‘crooked thinking’ going on here. And by me too I would say in that we are all talking generalities. I have met Jon Rappoport at a talk here and like anyone he is not perfect. Personally I did not find him that impressive. BUT he does know a lot about these subjects and Phil especially you I feel engage in total ‘cheap shots’.You have said yourself you do not like your job……………..which I can understand as you seem to be living is some lifeless bloodless thoughtless universe. You seem to hate ‘medicine’ as I could understand yet you ‘defend’ it against a thoughtful and refreshing voice like Rappoport. Sometimes I feel like saying to you “Pull your head out”

        My feeling about it is………………..we are in-undated by FEAR. FEAR of ‘terrorists’ fear of viruses and it seems to be mostly all bogus. But with a purpose, more snooping, more surveillance, more vaccines more bogus drugs. So fine if that’s the future you want a slave people fearful about everything with a childish black and white version of everything history included. Well that’s not so much a future it is already a reality. Just read here and led by Gretchen’s ‘cheer leading’…………….

        • Patrick says:

          …………..a from of ‘micro-cephaly’ you might say and I don’t think is has much of anything to do with Zika at all as far as we can tell. Thought let some ‘experts’ on it they might well find a bit of Zika somewhere. Anyone want to get ‘tested’………….

      • Phil says:

        Well, I might as well finish the story. This whole thing is masterminded by the Jewish elite who control the world’s financial institutions. They solidified their hold on power through the hoax of the Holocaust. Things would have turned out more favorably if only the Nazis had won WWII. It’s a sad state of affairs that the gullible masses of the world willingly submit themselves to vaccine injections which actually weaken their immune systems and bodies rather than strengthen them. The Jews, I guess, are planning to depopulate the world leaving themselves in the majority. This would also have the added benefit of reducing the threat of climate change.
        However, a very small minority of observers are on to all of this and fighting to uncover these conspiracies. What I think is that this is too little and too late. Ideally Batman would step in and set everything right.

  101. Patrick says:

    Daniel – I am sorry to hear about your personal losses of course. But here again and pretty much always one side of the story is being told. Here is a passage from David irving’s book about the war and keep in mind this is Hamburg not very far from Belgium and in 1943 maybe right around the same time as what you are talking about

    “During the nights that followed, Hamburg suffered three more
    catastrophic RAF attacks. In one, an immense firestorm began, the huge
    fires creating hurricane-strength winds that sucked trees, rooftops, debris,
    and people into their flames. The tens of thousands sheltering in the massive
    concrete bunkers were incinerated alive. Nearly fifty thousand people
    were killed in this one city, Hamburg, during this last July week of terror in
    . On August  Speer dismally predicted to Hitler that if six more cities
    were given the same treatment, the war would be over.
    Hitler ordered the women and children moved out of the Reich capital
    at once. Under the determined command of its gauleiter Dr. Goebbels,
    Berlin was evacuated of one million civilians in grim anticipation of the
    raids to come. On August  the American bombing of Wiener Neustadt
    resulted in a four-hour row between Hitler and Jeschonnek. Four days later
    the Americans bombed the ball-bearing works at Schweinfurt and Messerschmitt’s
    plant at Regensburg. That night the British saturated Peenemünde
    with bombs, killing seven hundred of their best missile scientists and slave
    labourers. Jeschonnek committed suicide, shooting himself the next morning…………..”

    This is an almost 1,000 page book and trust me there is a lot worse in it. Of course people might say Germany started the war well actually they didn’t in the sense it WAS Britain and France who declared war on Germany because of Poland. Anyway this is not a history forum but my point is this selective sorrow only crates more problems. war is Hell and it is Madness……………but to take the message that one side was uniquely bad and the other a helpless victim is actually the recipe for MORE wars. And so it has turned out this ‘message’ and the ‘wrong’ one IMO has and is leading to more and more wars. To insist one side is the victim and the other just the aggressor leads exactly to that…………….more wars

    Not to get too picky……………your description of what happened at Auschwitz in un-provable by definition you could say. About ‘gas chambers’ I am pretty much convinced they were a physical impossibility so there is a big doubt there. Gas was used for de-lousing clothes actually an attempt to save lives.”Gas vans” it seems are a Soviet made up story though they had them themselves it seems. There is huge Soviet lying and the interesting thing pretty much everything they accused the Germans of they had already being doing themselves. They KNEW what all that was about……………unlike the Germans mostly. The Nirenberg Trials were really an extension of Russian ‘show trials’ from the ’30’s prettied up with some British/US propaganda. The Russians DID have ‘death camps’ and of their own people they knew exactly what to accuse the Germans of. .As I say this is not a history forum but if you want to know more read Germar Rudolp’s book. A lot of the ‘war atrocity propaganda’ is just Soviet propaganda a totally un-reliable source. Lying was official and practical policy of the Soviets which also by the way had a very strong Jewish influence. A lot of historians consider the Communist take over of Russia really a Jewish take over and it seems that is pretty much true.

    The British are no slouches when it comes to ‘propaganda’ either most of the scenes of emaciated bodies in the camps are actually a result of their bombing not any deliberate attempt by the Germans to starve the people. But again all of this is twisted around is some kind of one sided fairy tale. Anyway this is making me no friends here but Daniel you have always struck me as a serious and thoughtful person if you REALLY want to study this I would recommend an anthology of about 20 different writers from all over Europe Swiss, Austrian, German, French,Dutch Italian etc it is edited by Germar Rudolp called “Dissecting the Holocaust” It is very serious and thorough history and covers many different aspects. To me any kind of understanding might start there and I would recommend to Gretchen also as she seems in danger here of just leading an Amen Corner and relying on well known emotional tropes and manipulation.

    I am sure the suffering of the Jews in the war can feel worse in that there is a degree of being picked out and shamed as well as death and terrible hurt there is a psychological dimension. That for sure is painful and in a way they suffer twice say like Belgium is taken over and then they are picked on even after that. It is like ‘bullying’ on a super large scale but and this is NOT to blame them but if people insist on being apart, on being special if you like or being a “Chosen People” well that does piss people off. I even mentioned this when I was in Ireland about my own family they/we insisted on being apart and suffered terribly for it. It seems I am still doing it.

  102. Margaret says:

    > patrick,
    > you are really losing touch with reality.
    > pretty crazy in other words.
    > M

  103. Margaret says:

    > haha, well, maybe we have a Madman here instead of a Batman.
    > would sound dangerous if it would not be so crazy that it can only be a paranoid minority flocking togehter, probably joining the White Supremacy and Arian wackos.
    > boy, it is kind of nauseating really.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      No Margaret to me YOU are ‘nauseating’ I am not saying anything remarkable just that history is not some kind of black and white game or charade. If that is judged to be ‘insane’ I don’t know what to say. To re-assure you I have rarely FELT so sane………….whether that is based on anything I will leave up to you and your tests lol. Test me for Zika maybe you will find my head is shrinking…………………but isn’t that what therapists are anyway ……………… headshrinkers…………………….come to think of it they might be more effective just give their patients a dash of Zika and viola instant ‘head shrink’………………… before anyone freaks out I am just playing with words the Irish are like that. As I say before James Joyce used to call Freud Sickmind Fraud so why can’t I play in the same way lol……………..Jeez Margaret ‘chill out’ a bit…………..

  104. Anonymous says:

    David Irving is a known neo nazi and Holocaust denier who in fact tried and failed to form his own neo nazi group known as Focus. He was found to have knowingly misrepresented the truth on numerous occasions and is not considered to be a credible historian. That is who you are quoting. He believed he had a mystical connection to Hitler.

    • Patrick says:

      Should I even bother to write to an ‘anonymous’ probably not…………but my ‘judgement’ is not so great sometimes. Well (surprise surprise) I very much disagree with you. It depends who you listen to of course but from what I know you are totally wrong is what you are saying. He is known for his incredible care with documents – even most of his critics admit that – and even un-covered several ‘hoaxes’ ‘Hitler diaries’ etc that were published in the English papers and he proved them to be forgeries.

      From what I know he is very scrupulous and serious. If anything it seems he was too much ‘taken in’ by the holocaust stories. It is recognized now he believed them too much as quite a lot of new evidence has come out from British de-crypts released in the ’90s and also a lot of Soviet records came out after the USSR collapsed. All pretty much shooting more and more ‘holes’ in the story. But I understand ‘holocaust belief’ is really a religion and any ‘evidence’ is not likely to change that. The nature of a ‘religion’

      For all that he did spend time in jail in Austria! Can you imagine say here in the US a historian no matter how good or bad say being jailed for maybe saying the native people here brought it all on themselves OR saying the complete opposite – say the white people were genocidal racists (sort of ‘true’ imo). But the point is not to decide what is ‘true’ on not but to put someone in jail for EITHER point of view. That should tell you something is very wrong with the story.

      About a ‘mystical connection with Hitler’ I have tried to look it up but can’t find it even on the internet but even if he said something like that that is such a cheap shot imo………….I mean if you were to write a 1,000 page book about someone you might feel something like that too but in any case I can’t even find where he is supposed to have said that.

      I don’t like ‘anonymous’ stuff there is nothing for you to be ‘;afraid’ of you will get all the support in the world here for the most part. Of course it happens sometimes, it has happened to me but I always feel to need to make it clear right away that it was me. You don’t seemingly which well I don’t like just my take. You can still ‘say’ who you are of course if this kind of topic if anyone should be ‘anonymous’ it should be me and really I should keep away from it as I know people can get real vindictive and upset about this. It is after about the only ‘religion’ of our times and about the only one a person can be ‘persecuted’ and go to jail about. But as I say my ‘judgement’ is not so good sometimes………..’holocaust’ investigators forget ‘deniers’ are treated just about like witches during the Inquisition it seems……………and we are really no further ahead than n those days in many ways we are worse and more deluded

      • Patrick says:

        Also I notice you say nothing about the actual bombing of Hamburg (and there more and worse ones) but I remember like 5 years ago seeing a documentary on PBS about the bombing of Hamburg and honestly I was shocked at the appalling cruelty of it I really didn’t know all of this stuff it is not published very much and actually I think it was that that started me thinking a little bit about this subject. BTW I was a bit surprised also that it seems the British were ‘worse’ than the US. US wanted to at least try to hit ‘military’ type targets like railways, ports etc. The British ‘inspired’ Churchill had no problem at all just bombing the hell of of civilian areas and did so seemingly with no conscience. I suppose he felt justified because of the German bombing of London……………but even that was a response by the Germans to try to stop the British from bombing Berlin. The Brits STARTED the bombing of civilian cities and never let up with truly appalling effects in Dresden but many other cities too. I don’t know why I waste my time even talking about all this it is well known by anyone who looks into it but is hardly known at all among people in general. The Brits also bombed the railways stranding and starving the people in the camps and then were SHOCKED!! when they found people starved to death there. They need not have been and then of course ‘war propaganda’ swung into gear. It was all the Germans fault the Russians even worse in the ‘lying’ department. The Jews were of course mistreated being dragged from where you live to work camps can’t be very good but also the Jews were more than eager to capitalize on the propaganda of the Allies they after all had Israel to establish. It made chasing the people who had lived there forever away from their homes more acceptable it seemed. Something than has never \stopped since and will go on and on. Europe can look forward to refuges for years and years and the “Greater Israel” will get bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger so they hope at least. And I would not ‘bet’ against them they usually do get their way. Like here the ‘election’ is now in the news one thing you can be sure of whoever is ‘elected’ will be a President for Israel whatever his/her stripes of colors. Blue or red – same difference

        • Jack says:

          Patrick: these last two comments of yours seem to me to be more than a little confusing in terms of what you are feeling and what the expression of that feeling is. In otherwords is there a purpose for you to be into all this? If so I did not garner it from either of these comments.

          First off, my feelings on some of the matters you have brought up. The first one was the word “Gay” in referernce to male homosexuals. I had and still have pause about that particular word since it implies we homosexuals live a joyous and happy life. As I see it, not true. It’s an arduous journey for most of us growing up and for many, they commit suicide rather than face a life being homosexual. I personally did not go through that phase. (another story)

          The second thing you go on about is the British both before, during and after each of the world wars. I am for the most part in agreement about a lot of it. Quickly, for me, my father was always on at me to “BE PROUD” to be British. I responded to him with the ‘smarty pants’ remark; “why! does that mean the Germans should be asahamed of themselves”? I am wary of both words:- Pride and shame. They are attitudes stemming from something, usually deeper within us. I also hate with a passion the PBS/BBC “Downton Abbey” For and to me, it is ALL that is fundamentally wrong with the British system. Jim my partner loves it.

          On another issue of yours; the creating of a homeland for Jews at the end of W.W.II. I was never for taking land from another peoples (Palestine, were Jews had lived for centuries) How uncomfortable for those Jews living there, I have no idea. For any religious group needing a country from which to operate I feel is counter productive, and as I feel about it, did not resolve anything nor do I feel it will. Then the 1968 preemptive war to take more land: I felt was unjust. But the British and the American were sort of supporting it. I do know that there are some Jews that also are not that happy with the govenment of Israel.

          How I see this whole human world is it is a fucking mess and as I see it it an’t gonna get any better. Guns and bombs to kill others with, Police to bully people they do not like. Militaries to kill others and take land, or some other spoils. Country boundaries artificially designated, leaving us captive to a bit of soil and supposed culture. Technology virtually disappearing up our own assholes, and worst of all child rearing pracrices that are depriving all of us, way before we can have any say in the matter. Finally: voting as a menas of picking winners; essencially leaving the other as losers. It’s all a farce in three acts. Why oh! why, can’t we all be winners. Life is so short and as Calvin (of Hobbs) suggests. “Life’s short … lets go nakend”

          You and I have one thing in common. For the most part; most don’t even respond to us. Now there’s something I am thinking about.


          • Patrick says:

            Jack – it is not my intention to ‘pick’ on the Brits. Even Churchill has some good sides to him I would say, actually in dealing with Ireland’s independence post 1916 he does not seem to have been that bad also I think he had bigger things on his mind.

            Also I will give the English their props very much for what I call ‘free thinking’ Even David Irving the historian we are talking about here is English and he was born in 1939 I think even remembers some of the German bombs dropping …………….and yet he gets outside of all that and writes what to me are great and empathetic (and very readable) books esp about the Germans. He has also written a book about Churchill which I might now read. You can down load them for free from his website.

            Kollerstrom is also English…………to me a kind of classic in the ‘free thinker’ sweepstakes. I love his writing style just his whole way of thinking and talking. If I was in London I would definitely try to have a pint with him!

            I have found another guy English again Andrew Johnson is his name. He really ‘promotes’ the work of this lady Dr Judy Wood about 9/11. I have ordered her book and I really think she has sort of solved it, what caused it etc. But this Andrew Johnson guy is very important in terms of even getting her work out.

            What am I really saying? I guess I feel a bit mellower about yourself………… many ways you even fit into this kind of English ‘free thinker’. Personally I feel you let yourself be too dominated by Janov and might have maybe added to his ‘legacy’ rather than keeping sort of under his wing. But you do things for you own good reasons it is not for me to second guess………………..though I do lol.

          • Patrick says:

            Jack – you asked why do I do this…………….that’s a good question I suppose but I don’t or try not to as much as I can ‘question’ why I do things. I follow my interests which is new for me and actually a beautiful feeling. I literally am led from one thing to another and finally sort of feel I am doing what I was put on the earth for……………which for me and for me only is to wonder, read, question, find out and it feels great for the most part.

            In terms of ‘therapy’ or whatever I think a major possible pitfall with primal is too much ‘questioning’ of my own motives or interests instead of just following them. Also it tends to be too ‘conscious’ it’s odd that a therapy that emphasizes the UN of SUB conscious actually ends up being kind of too ‘conscious’. Here is a link you may find too long it is rather a long story from this Sundays NY Times about ‘parrot therapy’ I say that rather jokingly but that essentially is what it is about. Contrast this with ‘talk therapy’ or even ‘feeling therapy’……………..the point is mostly we don’t know why we do things, why some things work and others don’t but to me at least the point is to LISTEN and FOLLOW. Primal in it’s attempt to ‘make the un-conscious conscious’ well to me gets too ‘conscious’ It’s like ‘trying to feel’ a major contradiction in terms.

            For myself I have spent a few mostly wonderful months reading and finding out about lots and lots of history etc but I don’t think I will stay going on about this forever and ever. As far as the ‘holocaust’ goes I feel I am kind of done with it I have I feel a pretty good grasp on what went on and it’s like ……………………NEXT! What’s next well for sure something. At the moment I am waiting with great interest on Judy Wood’s book about 9/11 “Where did the Towers go?” I even got a Kindle and find it great for reading it is not tiring on the eyes at all. I got the most ‘primitive’ one no back light so I kind of mix and match with physical books and the kindle. People here may find me arrogant…………….I can be I suppose but it is more I am excited by what I am finding out I feel like talking about it. But I HAVE found the MOST upsetting thing for people is any perceived questioning of the holocaust so I am more careful in who I talk to and as I say it is something I feel is receding as some compelling interest but of course it is always there and I do tend to speak my mind for good and bad that I can’t control.

            Here is the link about PTSD and parrots. I found it a wonderful story especially the part about the parrots


          • Sylvia says:

            Yes, Jack. We have lost our small-town sense of simplicity and innocence. We are so competitive. I can hope for little pockets of reasonableness. Maybe in this crazy election swirl people are revved up. It doesn’t seem right that the government is pitted against itself with two opposing parties, always bickering and uncompromising. A family wouldn’t survive that way. Just some late night thoughts.

  105. Daniel says:

    You say: ” David Irving is … is very scrupulous and serious”
    Um, no. Wikipedia: “Irving’s reputation as a historian was further discredited when, in the course of an unsuccessful libel case he filed against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt andPenguin Books, he was shown to have deliberately misrepresented historical evidence in order to promote Holocaust denial. The English court found that Irving … “for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence”. In addition, the court found that Irving’s books had distorted the history of Adolf Hitler’s role in the Holocaust in order to depict Hitler in a favourable light”.

    You say: “The Brits STARTED the bombing of civilian cities..”
    Um, no. The first civilian city indiscriminately bombed in WW2 was Warsaw, by the Germans in 1939. Thousands died. The second civilian city indiscriminately bombed was Rotterdam, by the Germans in May 1940. Although Holland was easily subdued still the Germans carried out this bombing killing tens of thousands. The third was London along with other British cities, also by the Germans. Tens of thousands were killed there. The fourth was Hamburg, by the British in 1943.

    In the years leading to WW2 the first civilian city indiscriminately bombed was Shanghai in China, by the Japanese in 1932. The second was Addis Ababa in Ethiopia, by the Italians in 1936. The third was Guernica in Spain, by the Germans in 1937 (it inspired Picasso’s famous painting).

    Before that, the first civilian city indiscriminately bombed (By Zeppelin airships) was Liège in Belgium, by the Germans in 1914. Then Paris, and then some 50 air-raids against British cities, all by the Germans in 1915-1917.

    You say: “The Brits also bombed the railways stranding and starving the people in the camps”.
    Um, no. And somehow those industrious Nazis still managed to get millions of people into those camps, using the same railways.

    You say: “‘gas chambers’ I am pretty much convinced they were a physical impossibility so there is a big doubt there. Gas was used for de-lousing clothes actually an attempt to save lives.”
    Well, Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commandant, begs to differ. In prison, before his execution, he wrote an autobiography were he fully details and describes the annihilation process. It’s on Amazon. Most of his account was corroborated by other sources. But I’m sure you know better than he did.

    You say: “… “Greater Israel” will get bigger and bigger..”
    Um.. Israel’s area, including all occupied territories, 1970: 86,410 sq Km
    Israel’s area, including all occupied territories, today: 26,410 sq Km.
    Well, what can I say; they really succeeded in that one.

    And regarding my Grandmother you say: ” But here again and pretty much always one side of the story is being told..”
    You really don’t get it, do you? My grandmother was on the German side. She was a German citizen whose first husband fought for Germany and died for Germany in WW1. And the thanks she got from her own government was being stripped of all her rights, her entire family (my grandfather, his son, her parents, her uncles and their children – all of them German citizens) arrested and deported and murdered by that same government.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – your ‘standards’ are higher than most but I have some quibbles.. I wouldn’t take Wikipedia’s ‘opinion’ about anything that really mattered to me. It is classic ‘middle of the road’ and really just depends on who wrote it and if they accept it. Look it up about anything you REALLY care about or KNOW about and I think you will see what I mean. Anyone can say anything and they do………………I already read that today about David Irving and I though how average how lame………….

      When I say the Brits started the bombing I was talking about the actual WW2. Poland was BEFORE the war and I have read in Irving’s book Hitler was very reluctant and I believe TRIED at least to do it for so called military or strategic reasons. Rotterdam was almost a ;’mistake’ he tried to recall the bombers but it was too late. But OK your knowledge of history I acknowledge my point and maybe I did not put it very well was the whole thing about bombing in WW2 for most people – certainly it was for me – associated with the Germans bombing London. What I read now Hitler was very reluctant to do it but Churchill constantly ‘upped the ante’ so to speak. Churchill seemed to have no qualms and in many ways to have been a true war-monger. He carried the bombing of civilians to an appalling level and it actually culminated with nuking Japan.

      It is interesting that you bring up Rudolp Hoss the commander of Auchwitz.and what he said. Do you know he was tortured horrendously by the British including having his testicles crushed. He held out on telling them what they wanted for a long time but they broke him. I have read he was quite ‘proud’ of his camp, they did a lot of work, had a theatre, an orchestra, a swimming pool, art classes for the kids etc. He was a ‘good German’ and proud of his work. See this to me kind of gets to the nub of the argument. Nurnberg Trials were based on torture no question about it not only Hoss but many others see………….if you start from that point where do you think it will end up. This is one of the main points of Kollerstrom, Rudolp et al………………….the STARTING POINT for the post WW2 world is TORTURE…………… two ways about it. So it is based on LIES and the LIE in then maintained and gets bigger and bigger and then maybe also very important paves the way for MORE lies. Do you think the modern world is based on much truth? I don’t not in any official level anyway. Most all of the constant wars are based on lies, WMD, new Hitlers everywhere HItler in the Balkans (Milosevic) HItler in Mesopotamia (Saddam) Hitlers in Libya committing genocide’ (NOT!) -0Gaddafi. The point is this ‘holocaust lie’ is the template for more and more wars and all based on un-truth like the original one.

      About the size of Israel………………does anyone know – they refuse to say even where their borders are (the only country with the ‘balls’ to even try that) They go pretty much where they like in the ME. Smart Iranian scientists………….not a problem assassinate them from a motor-cycle. You also fudge the numbers there immediately after the 1967 the had all of the Sinai for a while so you have skewed the numbers there deliberately. That’s not so cool to do tricks like that imo. But there is no doubt that Israel is constantly pushing out the local people there it is constant and on-going and it seems now it goes into wrecking all the other countries in the area. That’s evil you are really talking Devil’s work now and it is also threatening to wreck Europe

      I am sorry about your family. There is no doubt the Hitler regime went way to far with arresting Jews, deporting them etc.But I think we can all agree war is madness. As the ww2 went on it got worse and worse more and more brutal. People got brutalized in an unbelievable manner but from the German side they are losing they are being bombed to bits they desperately need slave labor in the camps for industrial production as all the men are at the front etc. The Jews were picked on that’s for sure. But even that in a weird way goes against the ‘gas chamber’ stories Hitler was desperate to keep his slave labor work force ALIVE to put all this energy into ‘gassing’ and something that is simply not feasible to do from a safety point and many more even for the Germans themselves. Hoss ran his camp like a ‘factory’ it was a factory in many ways exotic gassing I would say was the last thing on his mind …………….though after his testicles were crushed who knows what was on his mind. It is though what we have built so much on……………so much that need to be re-examined. The point of all this is not to blame the Jews it is for us all to see the stupidity of war and really think and feel how not to have more of them. Instead I think you might agree the ‘record’ of the Allies based on their ‘history’ of WW2 is not good. You judge things by their results no?

      • Jack says:

        Wow: I am inspired to just jump in here AGAIN and add my two penuth (perceptive) to what I feel is really happening here. All wars are insidious for whatever reason, but that is not where the crux (cause if you like) stems from. Most of it is rooted in anger. Whether it is from a personal aspect or a collective one.

        If only we were to understand the full context of feelings and their counterpart, expression, I feel there would be a better means to resolve them. In the case of anger I feel for me, I need to firstly own it, and then know how to express it. I personally don’t need to express my anger with the person that precipitated it within me. I can go off (preferably onto my bed and just say all I need to say and thrash a pillow or mattress, and then miraculously, for the most part, it is over and done with. I do believe this could be achieved on a collective level also.

        I do find you Patrick particularly typical of the normal (neurotic) way of dealing with your angers. It seems to spiral into your truths and their lies. I personally would not find that resolves anything for me, and would just keep the resulting sensation reverberating in my body for eternity.

        Not healthy, I figure. Incidentally I don’t see the Irish, or Ireland as being much different. the IRA were pretty brutal in their dealing (not without cause, of course)

        I do confess that a great part of this was initiated to me by Jack Solomon (alias Werner Erhard of EST fame) where he stated that it was all effect effect … and not cause and effect.. The whole British thing goes all the way back to William the first (duke of Normandy) and even beyond that.


        • Patrick says:

          Jack – that way of dealing with your ‘anger’ seems so ’70’s or is it ’80’s (’70’s was primal box)…………… seem a bit dated not that I am saying being up to date is any great shakes either. Time warp alert.

        • Sylvia says:

          Jack, I do agree with your take about anger. If terrorists could connect to their mistreatment by their families then they wouldn’t have to take it out on someone else. Hate has its day one way or another.
          It’s been said if such people had music in their life, which precipitates feeling, they wouldn’t be able to do those horrible things.
          Another aspect about anger. It’s always good to get to the root of it, but for me it’s important not to have the same kind of person, unaccepting, judgmental, self-absorbed in my present either, making me angry because I would always be defending and feeling bad to boot.

  106. Otto Codingian says:

    Horribly horribly sad. me. what are words for. do you hear me. do you care.

  107. Otto Codingian says:

    Aquarius. the water bearer. i forgot. sometimes i get more tears out of this month than i would have expected. or maybe my life is juist really really sad now. watched too many videos of the dead cat and dogs.

  108. Phil says:

    There is really no point arguing and debating someone who continually alters actual facts to serve his or her beliefs.


  109. war sucks. england is certainly responsible for many atrocities, as is every fucking people/race on the planet (i think). if you know of a race that doesn’t kill another race, well, they have probably been extincted already. but the holocaust appears to me to have been the worse atrocity of all time.

  110. z is baking sweet potatoes. i just burned my hand a little getting superheated pans out of the oven, that she did not take out for some reason. oven is smoking now. can i complain? no, now i dont have to go out in the cold and get her dinner and walk the dog. can you imagine being buried in a building that was bombed, such as 9/11 or dresden or london ww2? i cant. i remember a scene in some movie of where the germans were rounding up jews in france. some guy was standing around dazed with the trains behind him. a beautiful scene in that it completely showed the horror of what was going on at the right moment. beautiful is not the right word obviously but i dont have time to figure out what the word should be. maybe this is why so many people in the u.s. want to keep their guns. my dumbass kid number 2 lives in a marginal area and wants to buy a gun. I tried to dissauade him, especially since he now has 2 kids, but obviously he feels unsafe. i am wandering off the track here. so i stop.

  111. Margaret says:

    > it seems a fine example of your openminded curious investigative mind, Patrick, to take a cheap shot at Wickipedia and he, surprise surprise, avoid to ‘investigate’ the very verifiable information about the court cases between Irving and among others Penguin Books.
    > it seems to illustrate the truth does not interest you, nor the factual truth neither the feeling truth.
    > there is a name for ujust following your impulses without reflecting.
    > M

  112. Phil says:

    Why do people maintain beliefs which are contrary to facts? An example is “the flat earth society”
    There is all kinds of evidence that the earth is a sphere, but these people still deny that.
    Not quite comparable to believing in god, since scientific instruments can’t rule out the existence of god.
    What I think is there are some things which are facts. There is the evidence of the modern world around us, for example, which shows the power of science and technology, That is not a matter of opinion or a feeling.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – maybe just look it up on wikipedia then you will know! If you are referring to whether on not the commander of Auchwitz Rudolp Hoss was tortured or not with some so called ‘flat earth’ theory you are more full of s… that I even imagined. On the former you are way to lazy to find out and you just lazily talk junk about flat earth etc

  113. Patrick says:

    OK Margaret here is Wikipedia’s ‘authoritative’ it seems to you on primal therapy

    Primal therapy has not achieved broad acceptance in mainstream psychology.It has been frequently criticized as lacking outcome studies to substantiate its effectiveness. It is regarded as one of the least creditable forms of psychotherapy[37] and has been classified in a 2006 APA Delphi poll as “discredited”.

    Primal therapy has sometimes been dismissed as shallow, glib, simplistic, or trendy. It has also been criticized for not paying sufficient attention to transference Some researchers have suggested that primal therapy’s contention that adults can recall infantile experiences is empirically refuted. Primal therapy has also been rejected as dogmatic or overly reductionist.

    In the book Let’s Talk About Me, Anthony Clare criticizes primal therapy in several ways. He claims that Janov sees confirming evidence everywhere: “Everything is taken as evidence of [the truth of Janov’s Pain Theory].” He claims that Janov has “no evidence” that childhood traumas cause adult neurosis, except for the “frenzied memories” of his patients

    Now that you have read that Margaret do you continue taking s…. and you do constantly to me. That is wikipedia also I suppose now Phil should change his mind as anything so ‘middle of the road’ could not be wrong could it? When you don’t think for yourself you can be lead here there and everywhere………………….I was for a long time

  114. Phil says:

    Allied prosecutors submitted 3000 tons of evidence at the Nuremburg trials, check out this website.

    The prosecutors felt that the best evidence against Nazi war criminals was the evidence left by the Nazi German state itself. It included films the Nazi’s made themselves of atrocities committed.

    It is a waste of time debating with someone who can’t differentiate a fact from a belief and who
    spreads misinformation and outright lies.

  115. Patrick says:

    Phil here is another one for you. I would challenge you to READ and THINK about what Rappoport is saying………………DON’T run to some website and try to find out his ‘qualifications’ or the ‘degrees’ he has and what someone else SAID about him. READ and THINK for YOURSELF please………………like I said I met this guy he is not my guru and he has his limitations like everyone else (including Janov) but I do believe he is VERY good on these kind of topics. He has lots of experience and has THOUGHT DEEPLY about it his ‘reputation’; on wikipedia should be of little concern. Reality does not boil down (yet) to how many likes you get on facebook or who says what about you on wikipedia

  116. Phil says:

    What’s also interesting is that Nazi’s who got away didn’t dispute that these crimes were committed, they only tried to minimize their own involvement. It is only later Holocaust deniers who deny the whole thing, for apparent anti-Semitic reasons.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – I explained to you a lot of them were TORTURED and more to the point maybe they were given a CHOICE………………how would you like this ‘choice’ either admit and of course try to blame your ‘superiors’ or face death (execution) yourself. How the fuck do you think people will ‘plead’. It was their ONLY choice and nothing to do with “Sopie’s Choice” that is Hollywood myth making. If you want more Hollywood myth making watch “Schindler’;s List” and the burning pyres of bodies which in the meantime (like the human gas chambers) has been proven to be a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.So the ‘story’ has to changed AGAIN now we hear of ‘gas vans’ roaming all over the Ukraine and Poland just looking for Jews to gas! This is horrible and crazy ‘script writing’. (Apparently there was such a thing as ‘gas vans’ but it was the Soviets who tried to develop and use them

      Phil you mention so many tons of paperwork/evidence. They why the fuck do they need to TORTURE the head guy in the camp and then pass LAWS that are intended it seems to last forever and ever so NO ONE will ever know. This is called ‘erasing history’ the Soviets were very much into that. Read George Orwell’s 1984 and how to turn people into ‘non persons’

      Another very smart and cool Englishman if you think about it I think that is an amazing achievement and it was published in 1948 shortly after the war. The old saying “you can fool some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time but it’s hard to
      fool all of the people all of the time” But they are TRYING! BTW I see the likes of Kollerstrom and not only him carrying on that kind of Orwell (English) tradition. There is no doubt in my mind this is mostly a huge lie and a massive exaggeration and we are living with it’s effects everywhere now. Hey if the cornerstone of the culture is based on lies why not more and more of them. And that’s what we have sadly. Enough for now.

  117. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > more bullshit from your side.
    > you distort what I said, as if I said one has to believe everything literally that’s on Wickipedia, while I simply said the court cases they pointed out about Irving should be easy to trace.
    > but of course you are an investigator with tunnel view and conveniently ignore any question or piece of evidence that is not up your preferred alley,and would force you to have a closer look at yourself.
    > m

  118. Margaret says:

    > back to insulting, Patrick?
    > weak..
    > maybe you should change your name to Pathetrick.
    > I say this because you are so not straight and not honest your comments start feeling like some sick kind of spam.
    > you have no true good motives, even you can’t believe that anymore as you never reply to the heart of the matter, this is the best way to lose everyone’s last bit of respect.
    > M

  119. Phil says:

    The real question on my mind isn’t about the Holocaust, vaccines, and conspiracy theories etc but whether it is possible to have some sanity on this blog. I am not even interested in discussing this stuff or I would go to other forums and blogs where I am sure there are loads of people to engage with it.

  120. I don’t think the issue is whether Wikipedia is always accurate or not, I’m sure many times it is not. But in the case of David Irving it is. There are hundreds of articles about Irving not to mention the fact that he does not deny being a neo nazi who worked to start his own nazi organization. This is a link to one of the many cases against Irving that describes very well his tendency to misrepresent history. I’m not sure why you are arguing about this Patrick. If Kollerstrom and Irving are people you admire then why deny who they are? What exactly do you feel isn’t true about what Margaret, Phil or Daniel have said about these people? I have to smile when you go on about free thinking while quoting from the same small group of narrow thinkers. Several people have suggested you try reading and educating yourself on both sides of any subject you want to understand. As an aside I’m not sure how you can describe someone like Kollerstrom as urbane , from my perspective he might be the least urbane person I have ever seen. Just my opinion. My only other suggestion is that when you are listening to these people and repeating back what they describe as fact that you ask yourself did they ever actually give evidence of their beliefs. Next you could double check that evidence before repeating it as fact. In the end you can admire whoever you choose to and you can believe what ever you want. Maybe you just need to accept others may not agree. In the end we all know exactly what you think, let’s leave it at that. You have also made it clear you don’t think introspection is necessary in this situation and that’s up to you as well. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Gretchen for taking the time. You don’t have to. BTW here is a very short video where Kollerstrom explains he is not a ‘holocaust denier’. It is only a minute and a half and I think worth watching as be being an ‘urbane Englishman’ puts it a lot better than me being a “fighting Irishman’. I really like this and it IS short

  121. Patrick says:

    This is another one and for some reason I think of Daniel watching this (open mind) and Jack also. Phil I don’t know about you I think you need a few years. This a bit longer about 20 mins but also makes many telling points imo. And especially to you Daniel I don’t think this takes ANYTHING away from your and your families suffering. Truth is the greatest dis-infectant and salve of all and nobody certainly not me intends to deny your suffering. I am not too crazy about this guy Fetzer who interviews Dr K but as usual he gives a very good account of himself at least I think/feel so

  122. Well so now Kollerstrom has been to a Holocaust museum and agrees it was indeed horrendous – he claims he is no longer a denier ( though I believe they tend to hide behind the term revisionist now) well good ! I’m glad to know he has given up the description of Auschwitz as a resort with movie nights and sing alongs ! Good to know he can finally admit he was wrong. In the meantime please don’t post any more Kollerstrom, Irving etc. – we know their views and I knew their views long before you did. I am clear on what these people believe and what you believe as well. It is not at all confusing. I just don’t think most of us are likely to be swayed by neo nazis. So please let’s leave it at that. I am not so fascinated by these endless conspiracies, honestly you are free to be captivated by anyone you choose I just don’t think these people are very bright. That’s my opinion and you have yours. G.

    • Patrick says:

      Yes I do Gretchen and I find your opening paragraph appallingly bad in the kind of ‘loose logic ‘ you display and the kind of smarmy untruths you try to peddle. Just when I was thinking maybe “it’s all good” I can communicate etc well you have shown yourself can I say it as typical of your ‘tribe’. Untruthful, smarmy, loose logic………………..God help your patients!

  123. Well let’s see if you can back that up beyond name calling ( something bullies love to do as you know) . So what exactly was untrue in what I wrote Patrick? I don’t need a dissertation – what exactly was untrue?

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – the part that got to me (made me mad) was your statement

      “Good to know he (Kollerstrom) can finally admit he was wrong”

      NO NO NO NO and you KNOW it. That is such bullshit he ‘reached out’ as best he could and tried to EXPLAIN there is a big difference between denying that Jews suffered enormously in WW2 and that there were deliberate programs of gassing set up with orders from the top etc There is also a big difference between say about 200,000 Jews dying in the camps (again mostly from typhus etc NOT gassing) and maybe around 1.2 million TOTAL in the war from ALL causes including Allied bombing, being soldiers in the Soviet army etc and the figure of 6 million. Usually I think it is at least implied that these 6 million died in the camps and not in the war in general.BTW supposedly up to 20 million Germans died from all causes and maybe as many if not more Russians

      I feel I am repeating myself too much now but Gretchen if you insist on playing dumb I do tend to keep coming. It is not my intention but you should know me by now we had a similar go around about the suicides at the PI. You should have learned your lesson the more you try to string me along and say stuff that is basically untrue the more it annoys me and the ‘worse’ I can get.

  124. Daniel says:

    Well, Patrick, if you don’t like Wikipedia you can read the entire Irving vs. Penguin Books and Lipstadt transcripts (the link Gretchen supplied). Here are highlights from the judge’s ruling:

    Regarding Irving’s historiography:
    “… it is my conclusion that, judged objectively, Irving treated the historical evidence in a manner which fell far short of the standard to be expected of a conscientious historian. Irving in those respects misrepresented and distorted the evidence which was available to him.”

    Regarding Auschwitz:
    “Having considered the various arguments advanced by Irving to assail the effect of the convergent evidence relied on by the Defendants, it is my conclusion that no objective, fair-minded historian would have serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and that they were operated on a substantial scale to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews.”

    Regarding Irving’s motivation:
    “I find myself unable to accept Irving’s contention that his falsification of the historical record is the product of innocent error or misinterpretation or incompetence on his part. When account is taken of all the considerations set out in paragraphs 13.140 to 13.161 above, it appears to me that the correct and inevitable inference must be that for the most part the falsification of the historical record was deliberate and that Irving was motivated by a desire to present events in a manner consistent with his own ideological beliefs even if that involved distortion and manipulation of historical evidence.”
    Your account would have us believe that it all was the other way around: In Auschwitz they were just trying to save lives, and Hitler tried to call his bombers back, which were devastating Rotterdam just by mistake. In this Bizzaro World, as millions were enjoying themselves in the Auschwitz theater or the pool or listening to the camp orchestra, Rudolf Höss was the real victim. Who knows, maybe that’s were all the millions who disappeared are – they’re still there in the theater waiting for the intermission.

    Of course the Nazis needed their forced labour, but again – what about all those who were on the trains coming into Auschwitz and never admitted to the work camp, never listed and issued numbers? Where are they?

    By the way, Höss’ autobiography was written after his trial and verdict, when there was no need to extract any confession from him. He was waiting his execution and his account was detailed and corroborated by other camp guards and many prisoners.

    Likewise, you say that in the Nuremberg trials the Nazis were tortured and therefore they told investigators what they wanted to hear. I don’t know if they were tortured, but most of them turned in a plea of Not Guilty, so there goes the theory they said in court what their investigators wanted them to say.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel as I say you are better than most (here) and as someone who DID suffer (your family hence you) I give you a lot of credit.

      One thing you should understand is I am not interested in reading ‘standard stuff’ about David Irving. It is corrupted beyond repair and that includes the judges the lawyers journalists etc. He made the mistake of suing Deborah Lipstat for libel I am sure he was libeled but to try to it legally he should have known better

      I am certainly not an expert but my impression is he believed in the standard holocaust story TOO much. He was one of the first of course but much has come out in the ’90’s onward like I said the British de-crypts (where over 13 months of intimate conversations among the Nazi leadership about the problems in the camps NOT ONE WORD is heard about any gassing/killing program. If those de-crypts were good enough to sink boats all over the place they should have been good enough to see if anything of that nature was going on in the camps

      Do you know that originally the Allies tried to say gassing on prisoners was going on in the camps of “West Germany” but they had to abandon it as not being supportable. The Polish camps were behind the “Iron Curtain” so they went with the story there as they basically had no access to them. The Soviets were not about to ;’tell the truth” it totally fitted into THEIR propaganda about the evil Germans and their own ‘patriotic war’ and so on

      Your point about ‘un-registered’ inmates is an interesting one as there would have been some people ‘hanging around’ in the chaos of war who might not have been registered. Kollerstrom says as much and is inclined to up the total death by around 10% as a result. Again NOT deaths by gassing or shooting even…………….people were dying left and right out of control typhus etc. But to assume there is no other evidence and then that the Germans were monsters to these people basically makes no sense.

      Not all of the camp workers were tortured mostly the top ones. The fact that some pleaded “Not guilty” I would take as evidence of not being guilty! Some thought they had a better chance by pleading guilty and hoping for some mercy (in short supply) but I think others were just truthfully and bravely saying ‘yes they did nothing wrong’ as I believe most of them didn’t. Do you know some camp commanders were even executed during the war by the Germans themselves for mistreating prisoners. It is easy to overlook that in general the Germans had a seriousness and an integrity sorely lacking I would say with Soviets and many in the Western Allies also. That’s my take and I am sticking to it.

      You exaggerate and twist things a bit but not so bad. I should have explained Rotterdam’s PORT was bombed NOT the Dutch civilians and Hitler did try to recall the bombers but they had already done it. But we are getting in the weeds now maybe it’s time to drop it. I see nobody changing their mind including me. I was thinking about this today……………..Gretchen and others say read the other side. Weill I don’t want to I know a lot of it is just crap so why waste the time I have better things to do than read a bunch of lies (my attitude). It’s also say if someone really believes say the primal is true do you tell them oh well read all these other approaches well probably not plus they won’t..

      OK Daniel I like you actually. Also last Summer 2014 you were quite helpful to me or at least you tried to be. You are smart and I suppose I have to say ‘balanced’ esp compared to some others here who first off have no direct experience unlike you and also have not a fucking clue about any of it……………but they are still full of ‘opinions’ I am thinking mostly of Phil and Margaret and even Gretchen. Though Gretchen is different something tells me she knows a lot but almost has no interest in the ‘truth’ A hard to thing to say about someone esp in her position but I am too old to be fake polite and I have no career to ruin so I can say what I think now.I find her attitude weird and twisted and not very becoming for something whose motto is “all feelings are valid” well are they??

      • Jack says:

        It might be interesting to remember that the Irish were not involved in WW2 (dunno about WWI) and there were some, I have heard accounts of, that were pro Nazi politically. Maybe Patrick was one of those, since he nor his fellow countrymen suffered any effects of that war. Is this a sort of ironic? Who knows.

        Just one other factor regarding myself. My father during the war often stated that we (the British) were fighting the wrongs “buggers” as he phrased it. I later found out why, and it was that we had relatives living in Germany. My great grandfather on my father side had a brother who went over there, married and had family. My sister after the war went to visit them. My father was a fierce anti communist and tried hard to indoctrinate me to a likewise sentiment.

        I do feel that Patrick is not getting anywhere with any of this, other than putting peoples back-up.


        • Patrick says:

          Jack – I wasn’t around in WW2 I was born in 1952. But I do remember my Dad telling me and my brother about the war. He heard it on the radio no TV at that time and read the papers. And I did get the feeling he was ‘neutral’ in terms of what side he was on but maybe tending towards supporting Germany. He told us how the ‘supply lines’ were the problem in Russia not the fighting per se but keeping these long supply lines going. That made an impression on me and I got the feeling he was ‘sorry’ for the German plight so I absorbed that a bit I would say.

          He was not alone in this we had a nasty war with the British from 1918-21. People had very bad memories of the British and that went back to the Famine and beyond. Religious persecution, wiping out our language and culture and all the way back to Oliver Cromwell whose soldiers (we were told) tossed babies around on pitch forks. BTW Oliver Cromwell was the one who enabled the Jews to come back to England. They had been kicked out of there since the late 1200’s. Germany was not the first with idea of telling them to move out apparently just about every European country even the liberal Dutch at one time did. Not saying who is right or wrong in that but it seems to be a recurring theme in history. And I do believe it usually takes two to tango or two to have a war. Look at me and you!

          Even at the time I did not feel it ‘shameful’ my Dad was a bit on the side of Germany why would he not be? I also know one of their pilots strayed from bombing the UK and crash landed in the mountains near where we live. Again I felt the people were sympathetic to the pilot as the Irish usually are anyway to anyone in trouble. I am not anti-British to this day as I say I admire the ability of SOME of them to ‘free think’ but historically they were a disaster for us. As I said before they practiced all their devious ‘Divide and Conquer” techniques on us and then applied them to the rest of the world. We were their own lab for destructive techniques…………..

          One thing about me that is different than a lot of the people here is the Irish are/were almost like ‘indigenous’ people, I have a different feeling than a lot of people from more ‘developed’ countries. Also you are right we were neutral in WW2 and escaped so much suffering and nonsense as a result. The victors write History and that has been taken to absurd lengths in the case of WW2. Do you think we live in a good world a world of truth………….I don’t and even Germany now though all this guilt is stuffed down their throats they seem to do more about global warming for example than anyone else . I do believe they have been very wronged by the so called ‘history’

          BTW Ireland was joined to the UK during WW1 so ‘had’ to fight on the British side. Another thing that caused great resentment in Ireland……………….why are we fighting for THEM and not ourselves. So there was an insurrection in 1916 so this year is the Centenary of that. That is considered our most glorious moment in history thought really it was a failure but it stirred up the people and we got our independence in 1921. Though maybe in typical self destruct Irish style we signed it all away to the EU around 2000. Ireland sadly is hardly an independent country anymore……………..just an annex of international capital Euro style bankruptcy and bailouts. When I was growing up we actually had “National Socialism” though it was not called that that is too much just a swear word a rotten name. But Gretchen stoops to use it as she thinks it fits her case.But actually it WAS a good system all the major things heath, transport, education were run and owned by the State. But you know all about that you had that in the UK also. Now sadly after the depredation of the Iron Lady all gone………………

          • Ok, I will not answer you dissertation in full, with one of mine. Just a few comments for me to throw around. I grant that you’re somewhat smart at picking your points and responding … leaving many of the ones; seemingly you do not like OR, are unable to really answer. We all do that to some extent, but you are becoming a ‘past master’ at it. You also threaten to leave the blog, but seemingly your compulsion does not permit you, like you are on ‘automatic pilot’. I suspect, even if you get back to county Kerry you’ll still be blogging here.

            I fully agree that the implementation of Karl Marx’ communism was never realized … methinks because at the time he had little knowledge of the “nature” of neurosis. It’s a psychological factor that once, even for a benevolent dictator, their whole theory of how they would govern falls, and the very new situation they find themselves in necessitates (presumable for the very cause they are leading), requires re-thinking. How much that happened to Lenin I do not know, but from the outside looking in, it certainly happened to Stalin. Incidentally the very same happens to most politicians and especially the leaders like Prime Minister and Presidents. The very office they inherit dictates how they are to operate. Hence, we see clearly (leastways some of us) the promise never gets fulfilled. Hitler seemingly from the promises featured in “Mien Kampf” were extreme, to say the least, albeit that it was named Socialism; and he too made a few turn arounds. Try reading it if you are able.

            The world is full of armchair dictators, commanders and philosopher one of which I am (philosophers that is). Easy being outside looking in, but a whole other factor once one is ‘in’ looking out.

            Without repeating my claim again in full here … the abolition of money and all form of exchange would resolve 95% of our human problems, BUT it requires, (my notion; just mine) to get ones head around the notion. Most dismiss it within one second of hearing it, WITHOUT actually contemplating it. Understandable after major deprivation in our early childhood years; that most of us have absolutely no access to. Que lastima.


  125. First of all Patrick you asked me to watch a short video and I did. None of what you have said is in that video so implying I left it out of my discussion is bullshit. You may want to review your video . As for your comment that ” you should have learned your lesson the more you string me along and say stuff that is basically untrue the more it annoys me the worse I can get”. Really Patrick? My job is not to manage you! I will say what I think and if you are upset by what I have to say then I guess you will just have to deal with that. There is something of the threat in that comment which I can assure you does not work for me on any level. As for the untrue things you accused me of saying well, I still am not clear what you found to be untrue and likely you will not be enlightening us. The fact that something made you mad does not mean I lied it means you don’t like what you are hearing. You keep complaining that you can’t communicate. That is not the case. You have endlessly said your views. Your problem is that you can’t handle others disagreeing with you. You proudly announce you don’t believe in reading both sides of an argument. You prefer to stick with those that agree with you. Ok…….. For your information and in regard to your comment to Daniel you said you don’t want to read the so called standard stuff on David Irving well fine but he does not deny being a neo nazi. You can read what he says about himself to know who he is. You will find it does not differ from the things that have been written about him. Lastly, maybe you should think a little before calling those that disagree with you liars. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – you basically make me sick!! There are so many ‘un-truths’ there I would not know where to start. Don’t pretend you don’t remember and understand about the “3 suicides including attempted’ You are hopeless just hopeless as a person to establish any ground work of truth with. You twist and turn and distort and remember and mis-remember and spin and throttle back and rev forward. You are hopeless.

      As far as making a ‘threat’ please……………I was even making fun of myself about ‘the worse I get’ that’s a joke and you know it. But you know a lot of things Gretchen a lot of things you don’t let on. I feel I am finished with you if not with the blog completely. You disappoint me sorely

      What is a ‘neo-nazi’ anyway aside from a swear word for you?. Just stupid name calling. BTW the correct term is “National Socialist” which from all I can see would not be a bad idea at all. We have “international capitalism” in the West now (how’s that working out for everyone?) and we had “international communism” in the Soviet Union (how did that work out for everybody??) National Socialism if properly done seems like a good idea where you don;’t have vast in-equality of wealth and where a country actually means something as in taking care of it’s people.

      But the ‘powers that be’ (I don’t need to spell out who they are) have seen to it that that will never happen! So congratulations you have your sick world and you should be kept busy trying to glue the pieces together forever and ever. Good luck.

  126. Margaret says:

    > reading the fifteen comments of this morning kind of felt slightly nauseating.
    > triggered a faraway sound of ongoing arguments and anger that felt sickening at some point, I remember the time it unexpectedly triggered me into tiny baby wailing too when in a group Patrick went on and on and on ranting incessantly.
    > and it does not even lead anywhere, that is the worst part of all.
    > it is just senseless snarling and groaning and biting and well, repulsive.
    > I am a great fan of a good fight if it goes to the bottom of the cause, but this is just act out upon act out upon act out.
    > with a clear refusal to reflect and introspect.
    > if he does not disappear from this blog as he promises repeatedly, I think the best second option is we all ignore him as replying only feeds the craziness and takes over the entire dynamics here.
    > it clearly does not seem to lead anywhere.
    > of course I might be wrong, I am just so fed up with this, it is nauseating.
    > it helps to just push the delete button but still.
    > M

    • Jack says:

      Margaret: we each go through our phases with Patrick at different times. Mine started before he came on the blog. It amazed me at first, that how he was re-acting to me did not phase others at the time. It was quite some time before I realized others needed to go through their own process about him.

      I did, in my own feeble way try to warn people, but quickly began to see that there were many that felt I deserved the tirades he directed at me, even in many cases siding with him. Even Gretchen to my surprise, though she did acknowledge he was somewhat over the top.

      Basically as I view him now he’s a very sad person, little knowing where to take it all and actually believing that he has some superior insights into the TRUTH of all matters. I’ve long tried to make it clear that from a Primal perspective he is totally into his head, and though he know himself knows he is angry, is without any clue how to legitimately express that anger. Hence, I see him as sad,, and ultimately hurting himself.

      Right now at this point, I ask why do I say all this. My feeling is that I wish to show the bigger picture, but then; am I fooling myself? … I well maybe, but I was inspired to make this response to you Margaret, since you seem to be getting very upset by it all. Maybe if you see that it his comment, then the best could be, as you say to delete it. My compulsions don’t give me that option. I read him, and even sometimes get the desire to respond. Maybe the argumentative aspects of me, or as you put it, ‘the fair fight’. Ok Margaret, hope you didn’t mind.


      • Phil says:

        For me the worst part is the repetitiveness of what goes on here. Between you and Patrick. Also the stuff he shares with us, or rather pushes at us, disturbing stuff which doesn’t seem to be part of any attempt at therapy. Nor does it seem to have to do with a connection with people here, other than bullying.
        If I was to present everything that goes on with me that my therapist or buddy hear, well it is also repetitive and part of a pattern, as are probably my comments here.
        I would like to think that I’m making progress and not just on a treadmill.

        • Jack says:

          Phil: Not quite sure what you were trying to tell me, other than I am being repetitive I am not totally sure that is so terrible, or that it is against my therapy or therapeutic progress. I have known for quite some time, over 50% of anything I comment on here is me speaking to myself. I do re-read my own comments and often see it more clearly

          Maybe you were not suggesting any of this, but I would be all ears for some clarification, if that was the case. I do agree with several people that have suggested we all, and me in particular, refrain from responding to Patrick. However, in my own defense on that issue, my time working with and for Patrick goes back almost thirty years. Not all that easy to drop it, since it is a great chunk of my working life.

          Therapeutically however, much of what I comment upon. is a major part of the therapy for me; in-so-far as I practice expressing myself in the manner for what I deem feelings and their counterpart expressions are about. What I find revealing about putting my thoughts and feeling into writing is that it is recorded and can go back to it, and self critique it, and hopefully learn from it Further, I do enjoy it, though I am also aware that I irritate quite a few people, not only on this blog, but in and around the people I come into contact with. It’d be nice if I didn’t, but I have to accept first, that I do.


          • Phil says:

            I was just reflecting on what you said in your post. What came to mind is that besides Patrick’s problematic postings, there is the repetitive incidents you have with him. These often seem of a different nature, and often avoidable it seems to me, because of the poking you do. I guess you have explained this; that it’s fun for you, but it just seems uncalled for, (except some historical reason) and at least to me, is an ongoing problem or issue here, as a poke can just be out of the blue, and provoke a whole big insulting exchange. I can’t see how or why that would be fine with you. As with anything else, it could be worked on and hopefully resolved or diminished.

            • Jack says:

              Phil: Just one minor comment that may or may not explain my poking. Patrick responds the way he does, seemingly to anyone who does not side with him, and seemingly nothing anyone says to him even angers him EXCEPT being quoted back. I could be wrong, but if there is anything that gets to Patrick at all it is my pokes by way of quotes.

              About repetitiveness:- A whole host of repetitive feelings are how it goes for me. Oh! that I could resolve it in one good scream or cry, or even raging anger on my bed.

              I do feel, and have stated in the past, that if everyone were to leave Patrick alone that would not stop him from making his promotions on this blog. My take is:- I feel he would think he is getting through. From my working with him over the years I know that he is a very good salesman, and I did not wish to see his promotion (I feel are out of context for this blog) dominating it. Hence I resort to that technique, which I feel, though I could well be wrong, are actually beginning to drive him to see things differently. Not necessarily for him to leave.

              Margaret: Thanks for your response.


              • Phil says:

                I don’t really want to dwell on this but you’ve said repeatedly that you do the poking for fun. I think there was a major incident just last week, with Patrick ending up threatening you. I don;t think there is quite the same pattern here with anyone else.
                I haven’t noticed any evidence of him seeing things differently but I could be wrong.


  127. Gretchen:

    I read your comment from February 2nd, saying:
    “Lastly….Guru, sometimes I think you are very brave. Gretchen”

    In response, I have to ask you what percentage of the thousands of total people who have come to see you that you consider “very brave” at least sometimes?

    • Jack says:

      Guru: why can’t you just take it that Gretchen feels you are courageous?. I seems to me you need to feel that you are uniquely special to Gretchen. It’s my feeling that she feels all her patient are special in the own way. Why else would she want to do this kind of work?


  128. Phil says:

    I wonder why can’t you accept this comment from Gretchen for what it’s worth, or at least try to. Same thing happened not to long ago, which led to the Brawny paper towel discussion.
    It seems to me that at this moment she was addressing you and not thousands of other people.

  129. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > no problem.
    > I am usually not very upset you know about Patricks postings, just momentarily irritated and frustrated.
    > the fact he does not get it either when Gretchen adresses him was more frustrating than the rest, his rudeness and refusal to let anything in and that kind of anger beyond reason, the mere desire to hurt, where reminders of some old pain I guess.
    > but nothing I can’t deal with, just a faint resonating by now..
    > and I want to say it here as well, Phil, there is no comparison with the repetitive nastiness and the kind of adressing the same issues repeated times while working on them, that difference stands out very much.
    > and Ted, and Daniel, hope to hear more from you.
    > sorry, am going on here, guess another painfully frustrating call with mom did meke me feel like needing some connection.
    > told her 8 times it is evening, and not morning..
    > it is painful.
    > M

  130. Margaret says:

    > DAvid Attenborough hurray.
    > bats and moths live for 16 million years already, the bats chasing the moths with their echolocation sounds.
    > now scientists discovered some moths hear the bat’s sound shift to attack mode, then the moth makes a sound with its abdomen and genitals that jams the sound the bat makes and makes it lose its direction at the very last moment so the moth has a chance to I remember once seeing a big flying fox in a pet store, it was sad to see the holes in its wings, but it could crawl around freely over the cages and did seem to enjoy eating fruit.
    > I really liked its appearance, it looked intelligent, had shiny black fur, and big white teeth in a bit of a devilish face with big ears, and its hands looked very sensitive.
    > it had a long black pointy tongue,and well, it felt wring such a creature had to be there, it should be free out in the wild environment where it belongs, with that innate dignity all animals possess.
    > 16 million years, those bats and moths….
    > and then the human plague arrives threatening to wipe the largest part of all species away of this wonderful earth..
    > sometimes I think big epidemics, (or vaccines?) would have a good side, but of course it would be better if humans use some kind of birth control to keep their numbers down and leave some space for the rest of our fellow creatures..
    > M

  131. Patrick says:

    It is interesting that people perceive me as ‘repetitive’, I mean of course I am in that I am always ‘;me’ but honestly I sort of feel I am one of the LEAST repetitive here. Could be wrong but one of my biggest gripes about PT as it currently exists is actually very ‘repetitive’ I have more than once said the “Retreat” need to be called the “Repeat” lol I don’t want to argue the point but it stuck me that way. At least as far as ‘topics’ go and I understand that is just the top level but let’s see I have been going on about sort of in historical order here, paleo diet, what a fuck up ‘standard primal is, Dr Kruse and all that entails (cold exposure, grounding, sunshine avoiding screens of all kinds the value of eating fish and avoiding EMF’s) what a fuck up ‘standard primal is, vaccines and how terrible they are, holocaust revisionism,what a fuck up ‘standard primal is 9/11 and ‘fake terror’ Chalie Hebdo etc, how we most likely did not go to the moon, doubts about if Paul McCartney has been ‘replaced’ I am very much inclined to believe he has what a fuck up ‘standard primal is

    I could go on but it’s my impression nobody here has a ‘record’ anything like that not that it is a ‘competition’ or anything though with me it sadly somehow is and OK I can see ONE thing I have been ‘repetitive’ about but it is a matter of great concern to me. And I FEEL I am making good progress whatever all the ‘anal-ists’ here say

    Guru – your turn on the hot seat, explain yourself to the group……………plus I don’t think you ever quite ‘finished up’ about that Australian ad you put on here. i am just playing Guru you do whatever the hell you feel like………..

  132. Patrick says:

    Oh I forget another one and I am sure there are more……………how ‘fake terror’ is spreed by fear’s of ‘fake threats’ like ZIKA virus and almost certainly HIV also

  133. Patrick says:

    …………and I put on soccer highlights from time to time this was a wonderful goal (a work of art) 2 days ago in the English League (below) I talk about ‘politics’ as much as is allowed and acceptable here I could go on and on but I won’t…………..makes me wonder though about ‘standard primal’ Barry said one time ‘our pain makes us stupid’ I would agree but added at the time does ;’standard primal’ KEEP us stupid. I am inclined to think so as sacrilegious as that might sound…………….

  134. Gretchen:

    My comment has gotten lost in the crowd above, so I will repeat it here with a special additional question at the end.

    I read your comment from February 2nd, saying:
    “Lastly….Guru, sometimes I think you are very brave. Gretchen”

    In response, I have to ask you what percentage of the thousands of total people who have come to see you that you consider “very brave” at least sometimes?

    Also, have you remarked that dogs and other animals can be very brave, too?

  135. Daniel says:

    Your last comment to me made me feel sad. Sad because I felt hopeless about ever reaching you – and I did want to reach you – and hopeless because when our shared reality collapses it drills holes in and cracks the very possibility of connectedness. It was particularly your saying that you’re not interested in the standard stuff. I feel this is such a shame and such a waste. I felt that by this you’re missing so much of what life has to offer, because the world of shared reality (with emphasis on the ‘shared’) is there to be used for development and personal articulation, it can be studied and learned because it’s there to be studied and learned. In other words, real food is much more satisfying than imaginary food.

    Shared reality is important also because it puts brakes on fantasy, and without those brakes love and hate can cause alarming effects, as I’m sure you’ve experienced.

    So I accept your suggestion that we should just drop the subject, with the sad realization that although some of us desperately need to we will not reach you in this matter, and although you too desperately need to you will not reach us. Hence the waste. I guess that in a way this is a primal issue for some of us because we each had our share of feeling hopeless about trying to connect and communicate something across, only to fail and expose ourselves to the looming catastrophe of a lonely reality which is not shared by those we need to share it with.

    For me this is in did an emotional issue. Not only did it affect my own family and of course me, it was all around. By now Holocaust survivors are becoming fewer and fewer, but when I was growing up they were all around me, and I’ve heard their stories many times. None of my friends had any extended families, no one had a grandfather or a grandmother, and some of them had mothers or fathers that would wake up screaming with terror in the middle of the night. Every night.

    We were given names to commemorate previous family members such as mothers or fathers or brothers and sisters or children who vanished into thin air (mine is after my grandfather), so we served as and embodied a constant reminder of some kind of personal disaster that didn’t really belong to us but was nevertheless ever present.

    So in my personal life, and in the life of the Jewish people, the Holocaust isn’t just another abstract piece of history but a major, defining calamity with perceptible features. That is why we can’t just let it go when people say it never happened. I hope you can at least understand this.

    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Daniel I take a lot of your points. The thing is about reading the ‘other side’ well especially nowadays it becomes for me at least a kind of a problem. There is SO much one might read and at least now the ‘holocaust revisionist’ movement is a big world unto itself. I started at least with idea of sort of mastering that. Also I think in general there is a bit of a myth about researching ‘both sides’. That is true in an academic sense of course but I think most of us read and study ‘what turns us on’ for whatever reason. This might not sound so good in an academic conference but it is ‘reality’ pretty much. Then as far as the holocaust goes well I and everyone else has grown up on “Sophie’s Choice” “Schindler’s List” etc etc. I mean we have had all that. They when I read history and read about the gross distortions of Spielberg in that movie and not only in that movie…………..and I think enough I am not going to waste my time anymore on this kind of stuff.

      I DO appreciate what you shared about your family though and it has made things a bit more clear about what might have happened in MANY countries, France, Holland Belgium, Hungary, Poland, Russia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Italy etc. It is a complicated picture and I take your point very much how it is a kind of double whammy or in your case as you say your family WAS German and still no good. I still think though UNDERSTANDING is so important to be ‘morally’ outraged or whatever……………I mean we can be that way about our parents for example but in the end they had no choice and were doing their best. You might object to this very much but I would say the same about Germany. A country dismembered after WW1, huge debts, hyper-inflation, then the Great Depression coming on top of all this and Hitler tried and actually ‘succeeded’ in pulling the country together.

      Also his ‘hatred’ of the Jews is a kind of bigger picture and really to me a lot of it is hatred of Marxism on the one hand and the kind of ‘stock market’ capitalism on the other hand. Both things he saw as wrecking Germany and I could see his point. The country was flat on it’s back and he blamed the “Jews” really though the capitalists and the Marxists on the other side. Also Jews by their insistence they are a separate race more than a religion yet they live inside other countries but regard themselves as separate………….that is setting yourself up for some major problem especially as around 100 years the age of Nationalism was at hand. All of these countries were asserting themselves AS countries and you have the Jews there saying ‘hold on here a minute’. I mentioned this is the 100 year anniversary of the Irish State, Italy came into being a bit earlier. Germany was a strong and proud country but was tricked into the WW1 especially by Britain and yet was blamed for it all. Hitler blamed the Jews for more or less all of this and again there is reality to that. Britain basically promised Israel to the Jews and as a result pretty much brought the USA into the war. On the east the Communists infiltrated the German army and caused the disaster that was Versailles

      Anyway you don’t need history lessons from me but I appreciate you do seem to care and to me all I am doing is advancing my understanding as best as I can……………..and actually YOU have helped me with that with your story about your family.

    • Phil says:

      Such a sad story, so many people missing family members, and all the stories you heard. I started reading your post and it just amazed me on how well you express
      yourself, noticeable on earlier messages as well. Difficult for me to see how anyone else could be more convincing than you on this subject.
      I hope you will continue with us on the blog.

  136. Hey Guru, I did not lose your comment I was just giving it some thought. Plus I thought the comments others made in regard to your question were pretty much true and might be helpful. I figured you were trying to wish that compliment into the nearest cornfield, disappear that compliment or at the very least diminish it as quickly as possible. But let’s take the animal kingdom. I’m thinking at least 99 percent of all animals must be pretty brave. Sadly my best dog ever ( also my only dog ever) Pavlov falls into the one percent of cowardly animals. As for humans well, I myself teeter on the precipice between courage and cowardice. Maybe most people do. I think I have seen equal measures of cowardice and courage. Bravery is of course taking action despite ones fear not an absence of fear. This is a huge struggle for most people with fear winning about half the time. Gretchen

    • Gretchen: I am not wanting to wish away compliments or having trouble saying them. For instance, if you told me, “Guru, you are by far the most intelligent and wisest being I could ever possibly know from the moment I drew my first breath at birth until the moment I exhale for the last time upon my death.”, I would gladly accept this as true.

      The problem with the “bravery” and “proud of me” compliments is that they can be easily applied to lower beings and it leaves me feeling as though you are surreptitiously placing me on par with these lower beings even though your words are disguised as being complimentary.

      • I was typing in a hurry and had to step away for stirring soup. Let me clean the above post a bit:

        Gretchen: I am not wanting to wish away compliments or having trouble with accepting people saying them to me. For instance, if you told me, “Guru, you are by far the most intelligent and wisest being I could ever possibly hope to know from the moment I drew my first breath at birth until the moment I exhale for the last time upon my death.”, I would gladly accept this as true and I would fully appreciate your observations,

        The problem with the “bravery” and “proud of me” compliments is that they can be easily applied to lower beings and they leave me feeling as though you are surreptitiously placing me on par with these lower beings even though your words are disguised as being complimentary.

        • As an aside (disregarding other animals than humans).
          And yes, as an example, labelling 5% of your human clients as “very brave” carries a much greater impact than having 80% of your human clients having “very brave” moments in which the higher percentage dilutes the meaning of the compliment.

          • Jack says:

            Guru: What the heck!!! Why does it have to be comparative. You got a compliment; does it really matter whether 80% others got one also, OR is it a bigger boost to the ego to be in the 5% Geeze


            • I do not need to be placated by an increasingly exclusive and powerful subgroup of compliments to satiate my ego. Rather, it flows naturally as a by-product of my native greatness. Strictly dispassionate, fact-based observations of my supremacy are all that are necessary; there are no emotional concomitants of my ego which need to be gratified in this case.

        • Larry says:

          I would so love a bowl of home cooked soup.

          • Sylvia says:

            Sounds good Larry. I like my slow cooker for that.

            Phil: I remember my second year in college That I couldn’t really absorb those classes. It took me a couple of years off and working some to appreciate school. It might be a settling down process of age for your son. Though, of course you’re a dad and will be concerned.

            I’m wondering about the compliment Gretchen has given Guru. If one of us other bloggers had said it would it have been received without question. It must be a difficult position to be seen as a ‘teacher’ pointing out something good, rather than just a friend noticing.

  137. Patrick says:

    I think Guru is saying he feels ‘patronized’……………what’s ‘wrong’ with that “All feelings are valid” intones the choir except when they are not! Or all this business about ‘express you feeling’ or ‘say wharever is on your mind’ until you do……………….then there is all this ‘concern’ about so called ‘anger’. Another label and betrays the emptiness of the exercise..

    • Perhaps Patrick is describing what he himself is experiencing or is experiencing from others on the blog when the word “anger” is used, but for what it’s worth I simply want to say I am not feeling any “anger” here at all.

      Little squeals and giggles would be the operative watchwords for me.

  138. Margaret says:

    > Erron,
    > could you be less cryptic please?
    > M

  139. Phil says:

    My son, who is going to community college and living at home, has yet to take the plastic wrap off his books for the spring semester even though I’ve mentioned it would be better if he starts studying. He could fool me by just unwrapping them but doesn’t even bother to do that.
    Maybe he’s doing fine and we can sell the books back and get the new price. I’ve been having dreams about this. in my dreams I discover he actually does study and is doing well.
    The reality is I hardly ever see him as he stays out late with friends who are not in school.
    It’s good he’s still living at home as I don’t think he’s ready to go away to college and to take it seriously. But it’s difficult seeing how he operates.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – maybe he not ‘inspired’ to learn (what’s put in front of him). Maybe run a few so called ‘conspiracy theories’ by him and you might find he get’s interested. Maybe start by telling him we never actually went to the moon but it was all done by Stanley Kubrick in his film studio in England………………….you don’t have to present that as a ‘fact’ just an intriguing idea and let him run with it………I must admit there way you present ‘knowledge’ here Phil I would not be inspired either.

  140. Patrick says:

    I just read one of the links Gretchen sent me about David Irving. Now I realize Gretchen spends too much time of ‘hate web sites’ where serious historians are called ‘hate names’ like the favorite one ‘holocaust denier’. Actually he wasn’t at all and the more modern research backed up by a lot of stuff that has come on from the ’90’s onward has shown him to have believed way TOO MUCH in ‘gas chambers’ and ‘gas vans’ etc. He was actually a bit naive and who could blame him really but he at least started a process that has now more come to a conclusion. A lot of the more modern people are not that crazy about David Irving he was really just a good beginning………….

  141. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > when does he have his next exams?
    > and does he go to any classes?
    > it must be frustrating..
    > and also not easy to know how much and what to say..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      I think he goes to all his classes. I don’t know when any exams will be coming up.
      He did fine last fall but still I’m concerned.. I’ve tried to motivate him by discussing how much it’s costing us now, then especially later when he goes away, and some of that will be his student loans. It’s good enough for him if he just passes, but to me that risks doing poorly.
      Not much I can do about it.

  142. Larry says:

    I’ll be opening a can of Amy’s organic chunky vegetable soup for lunch this afternoon. I may add some other ingredients to it, perhaps some chicken liver. Along with the soup I’ll eat some pumpkin seed butter on bread and perhaps a banana. It should be enough to power me through the gym this afternoon.

    Another solitary meal in my solitary life. I have the biggest hole to climb out of that I’ve ever been in. My polymyalgia hurts me, makes me weak, makes me tired. It takes away my vitality and my interest in life. I’m frightened by how weak, alone and isolated I’m becoming, and what a long hard slog I have ahead to try to crawl out of this. Exercise is important, so even though I am very weak and hurting, I will go to the gym this afternoon to try to build up strength and try to counteract the polymyalgia muscle inflammation. With polymyalgia always eating away at me, the exercise has to be done regularly and persistently if I am to regain some strength. And even though I am weak and hurting and tired and just want to crawl into bed, tomorrow I will spend the evening with a social group.

    I have to imagine a worthwhile future for me, and work hard and persistently toward it, even though I can often feel like I’ll never get there. I wish there was someone in my life making soup for me, worried about and caring for me. Somehow I’m not worth it to me as much as if someone cares about me. I guess I carry a great childhood weight that nobody cares and nobody sees, and I’m all alone with my suffering and there is no one to help me out of it, and it is too much for a child to overcome on his own.

    I’ve become more and more disinterested in the blog over the past weeks. You’ve put so much time and energy into trying to get Patrick to see. I’m surprised that you do and you make me wonder what is wrong with you. All that is accomplished is that he becomes more polished at “brushing aside” your interventions. It is my observation that at the risk of horrendous primal pain, Patrick can’t let himself see, and yet you all try so hard to help him to. From the many clues in his responses, it is clear he isn’t interested in thinking, reflective, informed debate. He just wants to express his opinions and beliefs, unsupported by facts, on controversial, generally conspiracy type issues. Why here? Maybe because of all the attention he gets. Maybe because when he feels he counters your arguments, so to speak, he feels more confident that he is right in his beliefs. It is a sad, fruitless situation, and I only guess it is your own primal pain that keeps you engaging with him. I feel such engagement is pointless and is not a way that I want to fritter away my limited time and energy.

    So this blog was an important community to me, from which I am withdrawing further and further into isolation as with many aspects of my life. I need to fight against the withdrawal into isolation and the feeling that no one can understand and no one can help. Writing here has helped me many times to deal with difficult issues in my life. So I post this in trying to break out of the rut of isolation I am falling into.

    • Phil says:

      I hope you won’t give up on the blog. You’re no doubt right in your analysis of whats been going on here. Hopefully it will improve and that you can still use it to counter the isolation you describe. I hope you can make progress on winning that fight against isolation.

      • Larry says:

        I might feel like it sometime, Phil, but I don’t think I will give up on the blog. It is a microcosm of my life, and if I give up on one then I likely will give up on the other, which won’t get me anywhere.

  143. Hey Larry, I’m so glad you decided to write today. I do realize you have to push yourself to do so but I really do believe it will help as you continue to work through all you are dealing with. I did want to briefly respond to your comments about Patrick and the feedback he has received. Though I wish Patrick no harm and I would help if I could it is not for Patrick that I speak up. Mostly I prefer to stay out of exchanges on the blog but there are times when I feel my silence can speak more loudly than my words. This is one of those times that I feel silence can communicate acceptance or agreement and furthermore that my silence is actually worse than what is being said. Somewhat like the mother who is silent while dad molests the kids. Who is the bigger criminal? So it is not that I believe anything I say is meaningful to Patrick or that he will suddenly have the proverbial light bulb moment. No not at all. I speak up for Daniel, Tom, Jack ( though I understand he says he is not bothered by the word faggot and Patrick seemed remorseful about that but still) and there are many, many others. That is who I speak for. I hope that makes more sense to you. Gretchen

    • Phil says:

      On some forums a permanent note can be put that doesn’t get lost among old posts.
      Maybe impracticable here but the same issues do keep getting reactivated. I feel the need to speak out, but then further comments are definitely unproductive and frustrating.

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I don’t appreciate the way you say Daniel and Tom (leaving Jack out for the moment) you are playing the “Jewish”: angle still aren’t you?. I am fine with Daniel and believe we had a productive communication I trust he can speak for himself more if he needs to.

      I expect Tom now any moment to come ‘riding to the rescue’ again stressing the “Jewish” angle.You should be ashamed of yourself given the position you are in to be so ‘partisan’ But has and is it seems always a problem with the “Jews” clannish, narrow and cling together and eff the ‘truth’. More important is to cling to-gether and bolster the ‘story’

      To me you have shown yourself in a very bad light (probably only to me but whatever) the VERY DAY I put on the first Kollerstrom video in the morning by NOON you were on there announcing he was a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’. What’s up with you? Are you constantly on guard like the kind of typical paranoid nursing fears of ‘extermination’ as the most extreme of your clan is won’t to do

      No Gretchen Dr Nick Kollerstrom is no ‘moron’ or no ‘imbecile’ you though I am really beginning to wonder about. This guy has more understanding in his little finger than you and in one afternoon he can explain more than you have been now at the PI going on 50 years. And to-day we see Larry mentally and physically bollixed up……………………so much for your vaunted results. Self praise is no praise Janov might meditate on that it was my Dad said that to me one day saving hay a long long time ago. Words of wisdom from someone who never went to school…………..

    • Jack says:

      Gretchen: I like and appreciate that you intercede on my behalf, which also includes Daniel and Tom. That should be enough, but me being who I am, wish to add further about words; that are an attempt to insult and denigrate. I’m not sure if you are convinced that the use of words like faggot and the British version with the same meaning “Puff” or the Australian “Pufter”, Spanish, Mricon”. My brother had another which I will leave for now.

      It was during therapy that I had the insight to the notion “I could not be insulted … I could only allow myself to feel insulted. I knew also from that, any attempt to insult back, only precipitated a ‘spiraling effect’ that seemingly achieved nothing. However, there is always the chance that I could be attempting to nullify a feeling of being hurt. This response of yours set that in motion for me, as I feel many black people do when the “N” word is used and they use it back towards one another. Gays often do the same. So far, no conclusions for myself.

      There is no doubt in my mind that many words ‘My Granny’ used towards me when I was very little that resonate to this very day when she would often reply to me with “Yes my love” were very endearing and certainly had an effect upon the little me.

      One last point you brought up was that a mother being silent whilst my dad did and said things to us kids; meant she was equally guilty. My mother did the same when my father would creep upstairs and catch us kids romping on the bed after being sent to bed earlier than we needed. Then spanked us. I feel she allowed that for reasons believing that he knew better than her. She was more instinctive, he was totally into reasoning (his head).

      Words are more often than not, mere carriers of feelings.


    • Larry says:

      I understand, Gretchen. He’s going to keep you busy though, I think.

  144. Patrick – Myself, Jack, Daniel, and Tom – two of us are Jewish and two of us are not. Clannish? I think your agenda is showing. I’m sorry this will not fit into your view of things but it has nothing to do with being Jewish as I was trying to make a larger point. I mentioned two people impacted by the Holocaust. There are many more not all Jewish. I did not say Daniel needed me to speak for him I was describing why I felt it was important to do so. I think you will have to get over the fact that myself and many others don’t find Kollerstrom to be the brightest bulb but sorry, you are free to have a pint with him if you like but I just would not. We don’t have to agree. The fact that you are enraged by that is something only you can understand. I think you should re-read what you have just now written if you want to better understand your views on the Holocaust. I think you are about a second from asking me and my ” clan” as you put it, to tape a yellow star to our chests! You do a lot of screaming about honesty but I’m not so sure you are being honest with yourself. Gretchen

    • Gretchen, I have to say your first sentence invokes a bit of creative accounting there, doesn’t it? We all know Jack will go after Patrick regardless of circumstance and he is gleefully jumping for joy at the added opportunity of all these WW2 event discussions to pile on more stuff.

      As an added hint on the creative accounting: My paternal grandfather’s side of the family were of ancient British nobility, and I still consider myself part-British….if you catch my drift.

      • Yet a better hint: I think I will watch some “Two and a Half Men” episodes this evening.

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – I also found a bit of ‘creative accounting’ in that Gretchen there seems to be saying she is not Jewish. Is she? Only she can tell but my understanding is one of her parents was Jewish. I believe if the mother is Jewish that makes you Jewish but the father not so sure. Only Gretchen could make this clear if she feels it appropriate. So if we count Gretchen as Jewish then including Jack that’s three and a half. Jack seems to be in the line of Oliver Cromwell who was a big promoter of the rights of Jews in England and whose soldiers tossed Irish babies around on pitch forks (so we were told). I do believe ‘ancestral memories’ have a reality to them and if Jack wants to understand himself some more I might recommend a good biography of Oliver Cromwell. Seriously Jack it might be interesting for you to do that. I am no expert on the guy but I imagine you might find a lot to relate to……………he hated Royalty cut off their heads I think another thing in common with you. But it’s the irish babies that concern me…………….

        • Patrick says:

          Guru – maybe 3 1/2 men then? Are you watching the Charlie Sheen ones…………….they are pretty funny.

          • I am only going to say I think it is only fair and transparent to include any and all fractions for discussions such as the one Gretchen raised.

            Patrick, I still don’t mind directly interacting with you, yet it puts me in a bind because you are currently viewed as radioactive material on the blog for many obvious reasons both logical and illogical.

            I’m worried that you’ve left behind some seriously smoldering ruins that can never be repaired, and I can be considered “infected by radiation” just by talking to you.

            • Maybe angry Irishmen don’t mind the shamrock green glow of radiation. I don’t know…

            • Patrick says:

              Well Guru – you don’t have to ‘support’ me but I always like your ‘independence of mind’ something I find quite lacking here for the most part. Radio-active or not I say what is on my mind and though you might find this hard to believe I do believe I am slowly working my way out of here, though I have thought that before. Primal is deep in me but I am VERY slowly easing my way to a better place and understanding. I mean reading what Larry said to day not that it surprises me at all. It is more of a confirmation that this is not on the right track for the most part. Larry has ‘primalled’ for it seems thousands of hours……………….to get where or achieve what? Something ‘understanding’ seems to increase and I do believe I know where to go…………

  145. I do agree with Larry that the entire WW2 blog brouhaha is a bit of a tragedy all its own. Lots more I could say, but it’s slow-cooking soup time.

    If you use a saucepan instead of a crockpot and you don’t want to wait hours just to eat, you can best simulate the crockpot feeling by starting with 5-10 minutes at simmer, then about 15 minutes at low heat, another 5 minutes at medium-low, and a final few minutes at medium when the bubbles finally start to form. This respectably sears in the home-cooked flavor within a reasonable time.

  146. Maybe a little math homework – if two people are Jewish and one person is half Jewish that is two and a half! Not three and a half. Yes you are only considered Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Did I bring up my religion or lack of it on the blog Guru? G.

    • The (errr, uhhh) “spirit” of my point resided in ethnicity rather than religion. Yes, I am aware that outsiders can convert to Judaism. I was referring to the natural born types, so to speak.

      I can only wonder why there was a rule where you are not Jewish if your mother wasn’t. My first instinct says it was financially motivated somewhere along the way when the rule was laid down eons ago, but I could be wrong.

      HYPOTHETICAL: What happens if your mother’s mother was Jewish, but your mother’s father wasn’t? Since your mother she wouldn’t be considered Jewish under those rules and your father was full Jewish, could you still be considered a gentile in that case even though you were 3/4th Jewish in terms of blood?

      This problem could be applied to great-grandparents, great-great grandparents, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

      There could be an extreme example where you could be 63/64th Jewish by blood, but not considered Jewish in name because one of your great-great-great-great grandmothers was not Jewish.

      • Bah, I see where I screwed up in my first example. Corrected words in bold. I meant:

        What happens if your mother’s father was Jewish, but your mother’s mother wasn’t? Since your mother she wouldn’t be considered Jewish under those rules and your father was full Jewish, could you still be considered a gentile in that case even though you were 3/4th Jewish in terms of blood?

        …..and on and on….potentially leading up to exceptions for 255/256th Jewish by blood still being a gentile (or even more slender fractions as you work your way back to the Byzantines, etc.)

        • I’m sorry, but that rule is just totally wacked to me. Theoretically I could have someone only 1/4th Jewish by blood (or perhaps even less, but would require research) and be considered officially Jewish, yet someone else could be a full 63/64th Jewish by blood yet still be a gentile.

          Man, that’s just….

  147. I guess two and a half could be a clan. Thanks for clarifying that .g.

    • Patrick says:

      Ha ha very funny! . Who is Jewish or not? can get pretty silly. I watched something a few nights ago that claimed the 10 tribes of Israel went wandering this is I dunno around 700 BC and they got to the British Isles. Most of them stayed in England but one went to Ireland and I remember in school we were told a tribe called “Tuatha na Danann” ruled Ireland. This was one of the tribes or clans of Israel. So that would make ME Jewish since I am 100% Irish. I say this also to kind of point out the silliness of this Jewish thing of keeping themselves so ‘separate’.This seems to be deep in them and has caused them and the world in general massive problems

      This is a real factor to the present day. The US is ‘strangled’ by Jewish influence so no need to address any of our actual problems just think of that little defenseless baby in the Middle East harking back to holocausts real or imagined and constantly fearful of another one but ACTUALLY doing one on an ongoing basis to all their neighbors. I get so tired of all this bad behavior constantly justified to a past that I never suspected is largely invented but there you are it appears it was at the least way exaggerated and dressed up for the movies/propaganda

      Thinking of Daniel again………………1 million German civilians were incinerated by Allied bombing a lot of this was going on while Jews were being moved around to various camps……………..the point is war is hell why it is ONLY about the sufferings of one group. Daniel I am sure the suffering of your family is very real but is the suffering of a German mother or a Japanese any LESS real. This is so obvious yet their suffering is minimized into nothing. Do you think Japanese mothers woke at night thinking about children incinerated by nukes…………

      • Jack says:

        Quote:- “since I am 100% Irish.”. What IS Irish???? … isn’t it a sub culture of the Gaelic tribes, and as far I know, they extend from some of the people in the highlands of Scotland, the Welsh, parts of Cornwall, north west tip of France and Galithia in the very north west of Spain.

        I doubt there is a pure bred among us … Oh! baring Guru … who’s roots stem back to Downton Abbey … and from my seat at the table; it shows. 🙂


  148. Sylvia says:

    If I may say, amidst the serious stuff here, and liked what Gretchen said, I use slow cook for split pea. Larry, and Guru I cooked carrots and celery and zucchini, then add frozen spinach and petite froz. peas and chicken broth. Then add lentil pasta I’ve simmered separately. So much for recipes. Larry, know what you mean about we need someone to care about us. I think it’s vital for all of us, especially during rough times. Hope you feel better and soup makes you feel homey.

  149. (using 2^7=128)

    So if my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was Jewish and all of my other 127 ancestors were gentile, I would still be considered Jewish even though I am only 1/128th Jewish by blood.

    Conversely, if 127 out of 128 of my last seven generations of ancestors were all Jewish, making me 127/128th Jewish by blood I would still be considered a gentile because my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was not Jewish.

    Ouch. This rule creates some even more harrowing potential examples than I originally thought.

    OK, I’ll shut up now,…..but….wow…Where did this rule come from?

  150. Larry says:

    Sylvia and UG, I feel like flying down an inviting myself to dinner at your place. Also starting to feel like making home made soup. Sounds nourishing and comforting to do.

  151. Larry says:

    I got through a couple of hours of exercise and stretching at the gym this afternoon. I feel better about myself for doing it, and will feel stronger for it. I’m glad I persevered, because self-discipIine and perseverence are what it’s going to take to get me out of this hole.

    I just finished watching the movie Bridge of Spies with Tom Hanks, on Itunes. After days of precarious but successful negotiations in East Germany during the cold war, near the end of the movie the Tom Hanks character returns home to his wife and kids in the US. I was surprised how I broke out into crying here. He had a home to return to and a family who cared about him. I used to once, but now I have no one to come home to. I could die and probably it would be days before anyone, likely people at work, noticed my absence. There is such a void in me, such a void in my life that I need to fill. Seeing it makes me not want to try, but feeling it makes me understand it’s origin in the first place and makes me want to win out over it.

    UG and Sylvia, I could hug you for your comfort soup recipes.

  152. Leslie says:

    Ted – so good to hear from you – way up there in the horrid crap. So Refreshing!

    Gretchen you stand up for ALL of us who are absolutely sickened by the ignorant, arrogant, cruel and uneducated rants by Patrick. The merry-go-round of spewing forth, reveling in the conflict and attention, fake 2 second attention span of remorse – all before the re-load and repeat has gone on for years now… Why even his threats of leaving the blog are false and full of shit – unfortunately.

    • Patrick says:


      In the last 4 months I have read

      “The Chief Culprit” by Victor Suvorov. A Russian intelligence officer who worked until Stalin and Kruschov for about 40 years. The ‘chief culprit’ in his opinion was Stalin who had a plan for ‘world revolution’ of Communism and fomented a lot of wars to achieve it

      “Stalin War of Extermination” by Joachim Hoffman. A German historian about their war in Russia and the barbaric behavior of the Russians (Communists)

      “Hitler’s War” by David Irving. A British historian who is well recognized as a serious and fair writer. Believed too much in the holocaust only gradually realized there was nothing to support it

      “Breaking the Spell” by Nick Kollerstrom. The most readable and accessible book on the ‘holocaust’ and probably the best place to start

      Germar Rudolp’s ‘scientific’ book about the walls in Auschwitz and how the ‘human gas chambers’ contained NO evidence of hydrogen cyanide gas unlike the de-lousing chambers that did

      Germar Rudolp’s anthology ‘Dissecting the Holocaust” about 15 different authors from all over Europe. The BEST book and the most complete on the subject. This is over 500 pages of very small print

      During this time I have read several other books including Kollerstrom’s on the London Tube bombing “Terror on the Tube” a marvelous and even moving book

      Synthetic Terror” by Webster Tarpley……………….a profound book on 9/11

      David Ray Griffin’s “The new pearl habor” about 9/11 again

      “The Controversy of Zion” by Douglas Reed. A massive book about the role of the Jews in history

      9/11: Finding the Truth” by Andrew Johnson. An excellent book about how the 9/11 ‘truth movement’ got corrupted and in the end became part of the ‘cover up’

      “So I suppose we didn’t go to the Moon either” a collection of essays on different ‘conspiracy’ type subjects a very enjoyable read and an easy place to start

      I might have missed one or two and now I am REALLY looking forward to “Where did the Towers go?” by Judy Wood. I do believe this has the goods on 9/11 unlike the other 2 mentioned even though they were very interesting and informative in different ways

      Also watched loads of youtube videos about holocaust, WW2, moon landing, 9/11

      Oh I forgot another book “The Life and Death of Paul McCartney” by Kollerstrom. A totally fascinating read I loved it

      And that’s in about the last 4 months …………………but I understand Leslie I am ‘un-educated’ unlike you who has read what? Do you care to say?

  153. Jack, I do think it is possible to become indifferent to name calling. Possibly it just doesn’t push your buttons. At the same time I once heard something that really resonated but unfortunately I can’t remember who said it. Anyway it was a black man being interviewed on the use of the “n” word. He said he clearly didn’t like it when white people used that word but he also did not like it when members of his own race used it. When the interviewer asked him why he said ” because that was often the last word a black man hears before he was lynched”. I do think words can hurt particularly young people. It is also true that these words are often used in anger. The message of course is that it’s bad to be these things associated with the name calling. If nothing else that’s not the message we want to send. Bottom line I think we can learn to speak to each other with some measure of respect. At least I hope so! Gretch

    • Jack says:

      Gretchen: In essence I agree with all you say here; BUT I do have a caveat for myself which goes wqy back into my early twenties. Since that time and the lectures I attended at Regents cresant in London, my mind was into how and why the messages from those lectures did not have a universal appeal

      I suppose I was lucky in more than one respect, one being that my mother so loved my fatheer and when she became pregnant with me, felt I (that first baby) was HIS baby. The only sad bit about that pregnancy was that her dearly beloved father committed suicide from a very severe and chronic asthma that he’d suffered all his life, and at that point had had enough and wanted an out. My mother told me years later “I refused to greive my father’s death because of the baby inside me; (me). Oh!!!! that she had known that her greiving her fathers death would have been way less than her inadvertantly tightening up he body in order not to feel the grief.

      I know now that her tension made the womb way less attractive for the fetus me. Therapy wise my problem has never been with females, but the desperate need to reach my daddy.and symbolically I see that as the main scours of my homosexuality. However, luckily for me I also never unduly worried about being different when I was a very young child. For a reason that I have not figured out, I actually revelled in my differnce. Sort of felt to be above it all, which further precipitated my difference.

      I say all this to put it out there how things as I now see were for me, and perhaps some insight for others as to the kind of person I am. Lastly; the major benefit I feel is that I did not feel the need to DEFEND my differences. If that makes me a total freak … so-be-it. I do have someone that really cares about me and at 83 I suspecxt I am the senior patient on this blog.


  154. Thanks Leslie and Sylvia, how are you Leslie and hello to Barry! Gretch

  155. Leslie says:

    Hi Gretchen!
    I am doing well thanx. Our youngest (23 year old) son just moved out last Sunday. He was/is so excited to get his own place and life. We are so excited for him and miss him! We have been lucky to have had a child or children with us for the past 26 years!

    A dear primal friend has helped me get in touch with the sad part too – as is so important. Easy to get caught up in the fun of new phases in all our lives but saying good-bye to that life together that was, is hard… I loved being a Mom. I loved that I knew how to do that without passing on all my damage – thanks to having started therapy prior to their births and to having it as a part of my life throughout all our ups and downs and spins around :).

    I love our sons and how individual they are as they continue to pursue their own interests in sports, music and education all while having friends, girlfriends and jobs. It amazes me actually.

    Probably 2 weeks ago I happened upon your Barry’s brilliant “Remembering Summer” article again and re-reading it was great! There is so much more there than all the truths about the actual retreats – wonderful humour of course with it being Barry 🙂 – with even more. Would you please post it here again?
    ox L.

    • Something’s really wrong here. I mean, really. Leslie, you brag about having several kids yet you go after me over that trivial wine ad with the most minor of sexual innuendos?

      I feel manipulated & bullied around by what you did when you complained to me about that ad, especially since I was re-posting it at Otto’s request.

      I don’t enjoy being bullied around (including by our very own prodigal son Patrick).

      • Patrick says:

        So how did I ‘bully you around’ and please can we kind keep it to say the last year.There MUST be some kind of ‘statute of limitations’ on a lot of this stuff lol. it’s an irony to me that primallers SAY they are all about ‘getting over’ things and yet the main purpose of most of it seems to be to explicitly NOT get over things. No wonder they worship the ‘holocaust’ a classic stuck in time don’t EVER get over it type of syndrome. And Gretchen is like a duck to water on that one. Accident? I don’t think so it is a very destructive mind set and she has found her perfect example to ‘worship’. The ‘practice’ of primal therapy as it has evolved keeps going in the same kind of way, recrimination, lack of ‘understanding’ blame, only see one’s one side of an issue. Could fill a dictionary with this stuff.. Of course IF someone WAS to really ‘get over’ something then no more business. A friend of mine said about this there is a kind of inverse relationship between the ‘success’ of a therapy and it’s business success. The MORE it does NOT work the more ‘repeat/retreat business you are going to get.

        Guru – You say ‘don’t’ as if it is a current thing. About that ‘ad’ I was just joshing you as you promised to sort of lay it all out but then you totally ‘disappeared (wouldn’t be the first time that happened)

        It seems to me Guru that you seem to be a bit ‘cowardly’ so even now when dealing with Leslie you have to drag me into it as some kind of all purpose ‘hate figure” Well that does not ‘scare’ me or bother me anymore. Also I notice yesterday you seem really careful not to be associated with me except as peripherally as possible. Whatever I have nothing left to lose here and I might as well say what strikes me………I really don’t need your ‘support’ I don’t think you are actually capable of ‘supporting’ much. Too busy dreaming about making money and like a good primaller ‘blame’ it all on something you don’t even remember.

        About that ‘ad’ BTD you put it on there and Leslie objected does this need to drag on ‘underground’ for months and when you finally ‘surface’ you STILL have to somehow drag me into it.

        • No, Patrick, you have the intent of my message completely mistaken. What I was trying to say is that I don’t enjoy being bullied around by anyone. It sucks!

          I said (including our prodigal son Patrick) because of your overall blog reputation and opinions formed by others. I’ve already gotten over the other stuff long ago.

          • Patrick says:

            Sorry Guru – it seemed I jumped the gun on that one. I feel ‘jumpy’ like just about anyone might ‘jump’ on me. Bring it on myself…………whatever

            On a different tack I saw this word in the Irish paper that I had not seen before. It was “cry-bully” A bully who ‘cries’ also. Maybe that’s me in some ways

            I do feel this ‘bully’ thing can be over done, like Gretchen might talk to me about ‘hate’ that’s why I tried to make the point yesterday calling someone a ‘holocaust denier’ could also be seen as ‘hate speech’ to kind of use their own jargon against them. Especially is someone who then tries to ‘explain’ himself …………too late he is a’holocaust denier that could for sure be called ‘hate speech’ though I do not like to talk that way

            Same with ‘bully’ ‘cry baby’ etc etc…………….they are all JUST ‘words’ and can be and are twisted and misused. Maybe ‘crooked thinking’ lol

            • Patrick: Well, you talk about my not supporting you very well, yet I just don’t want to touch this Holocaust issue with a 10 foot pole. You’re on your own with that one. It feels like bad Karma to me to argue against people who may have already been wounded by it.

              How so much wealth came into the hands of Jewish people is an interesting topic to me, though. Yes, I say this fully understanding there are plenty of Jews in dire straits as well (I personally knew a couple).

              Although I’ve never been to Israel, I read a lot of comments that American Jews are far different in many ways than Israeli Jews. I’ve often wondered if the American Jews are more “money oriented” than the Israelis. I really don’t know.

              • Patrick says:

                Guru – I don’t expect ‘support’ on that one and to be fair to you you kind of stay ‘neurtal’. That is already pretty good imo.

      • Jack says:

        Quote:- “Something’s really wrong here. I mean, ” What do you really mean … are you the arbitrator as to the righteousness and the wrongteousness of this blog. Godo help us if that’s the case.


        • I know the Xanax has kicked in because Jack is sweetly amusing now.

          • Jack says:

            I don’t believe you.


            • That Xanax pill knocked me out cold for 4 hours. I just woke up.

              • I contend you might well have been knocked out before taking that pill.


                • You wrote:
                  “I contend you might well have been knocked out before taking that pill.”

                  You really scored a knockout with that one, Jack. Nice work.

                • Patrick says:

                  There is the ‘contending’ as in arguing etc (always) then the ‘you might well’ that is the ‘out’ the escape clause if he is ever challenged on anything, there are several other versions of this like the word ‘seemingly’ or ‘it’s my feeling’ something that can’t be argued with. So he STARTS an ‘argument’ and then quickly builds an ‘escape clause’ in case someone bobs him in the face and then delivers the ‘blow’ or the ‘hit’. So let’s do this again 1. announce an argument or a fight. 2. build an escape hatch to avoid any consequence for himself. 3 deliver the hit.

                  I have seen this so many times over and over again…………………one might have thought “Jack would have got to that feeling” …………..well no…………..that kind of ‘analysis’ is ignored all under the aegis of ‘i’m just expressing my feeling’ which I suppose is true. The feeling being something like………………I start fights but I am really a coward who has a path to run away to safety no matter what happens and then once that’s all set up I deliver a blow or what I think/feel is a blow

                  Sounds like some schoolyard situation a long time ago……………..not the kind of person I would want as a friend……………can a person like that BE a friend……………not to me.

      • Leslie says:

        Is this a joke Ug? Are you trying to provoke me to answer you? I am stunned by your inane post. You mean because I have had sex and birthed children I should not call you out on posting sexist material for the 2nd time on the blog. That you see it as the most minor of sexual innuendos can’t be true. Although you asking me to ask my husband how he felt about the ad – was from back in the dark ages too. That’s the thing – its 2016 now.

        • Not a joke at all. It was unfinished business that needed to be finished. I even had a long talk with Gretchen and others about it; I really do view it as trivial and it seriously left me wondering why you were so jumpy about it.

          If the roles were reversed and such an advertising innuendo was placed by women upon a man, I would have shrugged it off and said to myself, “What’s the big deal?”

          • If you think I am coming out of the dark ages over something that occurred less than two months ago, what would you call all this blog fighting fating back to early 2014 over what happened 72 years ago in WW2? That some serious cobwebs in the attic action there too, isn’t it?

            • …(correction) fighting dating back to…

            • Leslie says:

              Ug – I am saying your attitude of not realizing how the ad is insulting to women here on the blog is dated. It does not shock me – just seems strange that you think posting it here twice is appropriate. As I said before e-mailing it to your friends makes more sense to me.

              • OK Leslie, thank you for a more civilized response. Here is a very serious question for you, though: Why is there a young woman actually doing the ad? If it is insulting to women, why did she not refuse the job on principle? For all we know, she might have enjoyed playing the part.

                It’s hard for me to see the potential reactions of hundreds of different invisible people reading the blog when there is a woman right in front of me in the advertisement appearing to have a jolly time of it.

                I just feel like I am being painted in one broad stroke as a general misogynist brashly out to insult all women. I can’t please 100% of the people 100% of the time, I guess.

                I just posted the clip a second time because it would have been a big hassle for both Gretchen and I to track down Otto’s email address (assuming Otto would even want to give his email to me at all since we are not associated in any way other than the blog).

                • Leslie says:

                  Ok Ug. I’m glad we can converse. I can see where things can be confusing at times – not just for you but for everyone and I include myself in that too.
                  Why did the woman do the ad? To make money, to get noticed and get attention perhaps.
                  To have/create a laugh – not realizing how we (women) can sabotage our efforts to not be objectified. Do women take advantage of men too? Yes.
                  I made more money as a barmaid than my job with college and university degrees. Why is that? Where are our societal values?
                  Words, images, behaviours etc. can hurt. Although Jack said he is not bothered by being subjected to the horrid taunts of FAGGOT etc. I know he knows and emphasizes with the many young people who kill themselves or think of it everyday rather than face a life being gay in our world today. There are women who are hurt & killed continually in sexual & violent assaults.
                  I’m sure you think this is way heavier than you think it should be. I am not saying this is where you were going or doing or are – just writing my view today.
                  I am a victim of sexual assault and work with youth who have been and some who continue to be.
                  It is shocking how in a room full of women/ or here on the blog there are usually so few who have not known sexual assault/abuse.
                  I just returned from my mom’s for the weekend as she was recently sexually assaulted by her close friend’s 68 year old husband! My mom is 86 years old and did nothing wrong. The fall-out from this is probably beyond what any of us could imagine – except for Gretchen and Barry B.
                  I am including another heavy – an article that has some good stuff about women’s conditioning for all of us to ponder.


    • Jo says:

      Leslie, good to hear of this latest stage of your life… 😀
      I can’t find Barry’s original ‘Remembering summer’ as yet, but while looking for it found and re-read ‘Generosity’.. it’s noticeable to me how I’m more open and able to get what Barry says.

      • Leslie says:

        Thanks Jo!
        Just read Barry’s “Generosity” and then that led to Gretchen’s “Simplicity”.
        Great way to start the day !! We are on Part 5 of “Remembering Summer” here so just go back to the 1st posting of it in ‘Recent Posts’, just above ‘Recent Comments’ at the top
        of this section.
        What is new with you?
        ox L

        • Jo says:

          What’s new, Leslie, well-I had a chunk of time in LA in December, sooo good to see people!! Here in uk I’m playing tennis four times a week now, and feeling accepted by the club members. I’m also on a dating website, and have had a few dates with a couple of men, which came to nothing…so up and down feelings in that regard! I guess That generally overall I’m doing alright.
          I finished ‘Housekeeping’ a while back…so bleak :….., so descriptive…thank you:)

        • Jo says:

          I’m enjoying re-reading these posts😉

  156. Daniel says:

    I’m not sure, Patrick, what you mean by Jewish people keeping themselves so ‘separate’, and particularly how that, as you say, caused the world massive problems. My mother and her family were German, felt German, adored German culture and fought for Germany. Jews in England fought for England, those in Poland fought for Poland, those in the US fought for the US, etc. All of those I mentioned were well ingrained into their respective societies. Perhaps you’re referring to the ultra-religious Jews who dressed differently and were very adamant in their attempts to preserve their religious identity.

    Although I can speak only for myself, I don’t remember anyone here denying that German or Japanese civilians suffered greatly during WW2, only that, as I’ve written here before, the Jews and Gypsies weren’t just your ‘regular’ civilian casualties of war the way other civilians in the countries that participated in that war were, because their destruction had nothing to do with winning a war, was carried mostly after the military battles were won by the Germans, and were part of a hateful racial ideology.

    It also isn’t clear how exactly the US is, as you say, strangled by Jewish influence, and why you think any of US actual problems are not addressed. For example, in recent years troops were returned home from Afghanistan, a deal was struck with Iran, and there were major changes in policies of health, the economy, the environment and immigration. We can debate if these were sufficient or good or not, but saying that any of the actual problems are not addressed in ridiculous. Connecting this false allegation to some Jewish ‘strangle’ may explain why you concoct that allegation.

    • Jewish Americans comprise roughly 2% of the country’s population, yet 40% of American billionaires are Jewish.

      I don’t want to get too deeply into this topic right now, but there’s a starting point.

      • Ironically, as I pointed out some months ago, Bernie Sanders is also Jewish and he is railing against the oligarchs and wealth/power inequality in the US.

      • Daniel says:

        So, the point being…? What is the meaning of this fact (if it is in did a fact)?

        • Patrick mentioned that the US is being strangled by Jewish influence, right? He who has the gold, rules? In light of this I thought it worth pointing out that Jewish Americans comprise less than 2% of the country’s population, yet make up 40% of the country’s billionaires.

          • Daniel says:

            So, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying:
            1. 40% rules over the 60% which is somehow strangled by those 40%
            2. There is something specifically Jewish about that rule. I mean that of all the other facts the fact that these people may be Jewish has specific consequences to the US, that this ethnic characteristic of theirs plays a decisive role in their presumed rule, rather than other characteristics, for example the characteristic of belonging to a particular sector (like the financial sector, government, industrial sector, etc.).

            • This is a delicate and complex matter, Daniel. I wanted to post those statistics so that people can draw their own conclusions as to whether they should mean anything.

              More to the point, I am hesitant to become embroiled in such discussions for the time being. Lots of Jews do live in poverty or middle-class while there seems to be a subset of the ethnic group that is much more voraciously avaricious than normal.

              Patrick might be able to look into this further if he wants. All I do is cook beans and brussels sprouts.

              • One possible explanation comes from this link surrounding the Tom Perkins controversy a couple years ago:

                Here is the excerpt that caught my eye:
                “Jewish people weren’t persecuted merely for their financial successes and it’s total mythology to believe all Jewish people are wealthy despite our population over-indexing in education, arts and wealth. Jews were persecuted for being different. The sort of mindless intolerance that I see lobbed today against Muslim people, African Americans, gay couples and others.

                Jews followed their own rituals that made them seem “strange” to gentiles. Jews were excluded from trade guilds across Europe for hundreds of years which made it impossible for Jewish people to have a normal, stable income from the most important jobs of those era. Because they couldn’t have “normal” professions they become traders, peddlers, market makers and financiers.

                One only need watch Downtown Abbey to see what the wealthy classes of Europe thought of “businessmen.” We were hardly people of society. Study the origins of the retail sector and you’ll see Jews who emerged from market stalls like Marks & Spencer or Neiman Marcus. Read about the Schmatta business to learn one instance where Jews became great entrepreneurs out of need. As they say, “Necessity is the Mother of All Invention.”

                Jews weren’t persecuted for being rich. Jews were scapegoated whenever countries had economic problems simply because they were different and were an easy target for political leaders. It’s a societal consequence when times turn bad and people affected look for somebody to blame.”

                This passage was well-said enough for me to repost here for further consideration.

                • Larry says:

                  You might be interested to read “Yiddish Civilization. The Rise and Fall of a Forgotten Nation”. It cut through the myths I’d been brought up with and filled in the gaps for me a decade ago when I was reading a lot of history about Europe, the Middle East, and Russia trying to understand how we arrived at the current political and social environment in economically dominant northern hemisphere nations.

                  • The book does sound interesting, Larry, and thank you for the suggestion. I don’t think I am prepared to read something like that right now, though. I will put the title in my scrapbook file where I keep my miscellaneous life info. I’m too spent to read another entire book at the moment.

                  • Larry says:

                    It is only 311 pages, UG. The Irish Times says it is “Informative and very interesting”, if that endorsement means anything to any self-professed experts who dismiss the book at a whim without knowing anything about it.

                • Phil says:

                  Besides this passage which I like, so what if there are quite a few Jewish billionaires and millionaires? Good for them. I’m sure some of them, although not all, give their money away to good causes. It’s up to voters to elect politicians who will promote a more progressive tax code and other policies to do something about economic inequality.
                  No need to respond; I just wanted to make this one point.

    • Daniel says:

      I think the link in my comment is broken,
      so here it is again.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – you deserve a thoughtful reply so maybe to-morrow when I am less ‘jumpy’.I like the way you KEEP ‘talking’ that to me is a great quality.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – this subject gets a bit ‘big’ and we inevitably get lost in generalities. Plus Margaret is so bored with it and pretty soon probably will be calling for me to be ‘banned’ again esp if I say what I really think/feel so I dunno it feels a bit limited what I can say or want to say

      But and I do remember this about you from the Summer of 2014 when Israel was committing another war crime on the native people that have lived there forever you have a kind of neutral ‘what us?’ or ‘who me?’kind of attitude Or you could not accept that Israel was based and built on ‘racism’ If you are so ‘innocent’ of the real world I cannot prove it to you. It such a neat trick build your own country ON racism but be SO quick to call any kind of normal self assertion by others AS ‘racism’.

      I would suggest you read “Controversy of Zion” by Douglas Reed. Reed’s is an interesting case he was a well known and respected British journalist working in Germany in the 1930’s he had personally met I believe the Big 3 Churchill, Hitler and Stalin. He was NOT a ‘fan’ of Hitler to the point he quit his job for the London Times in protest of their and British in general leniency towards what he saw as the dangers of Hitler’s expansionism.In his book he does not have a good word to say about HItler if anything he says Hitler’s took his ‘master race’ from the meme of “God’s chosen people” already an incipient ‘racism’ there………

      Anyway it’s a big book about 600 pages (I got in on Kindle for $10.00) and goes through Jewish history ALL the way back from Babylonian Captivity etc. He makes a compelling case the tribe of Judah DO believe in ‘separation’. It is integral to them and the deepest part of their identity. And well their history…………….kind of gets worse from there or very often gets worse for their neighbors!! To me that is a more ‘real’ picture that the ‘politically correct’ versions portrayed here this morning (or any morning anywhere) by Guru, Margaret and Larry. And most everywhere else all the time in almost all papers at least in the West…………..problem is it is basically NOT true.All this business about how they were not allowed in certain professions that is true but as Jack would say as an ‘effect’. WHY are they barred? Could it be because they abused their position in many respects……………yes!

      Now again I will admit or agree that itself has another ‘effect’ it makes the Jews wary and with good reason. In the end can we ever un-entangle who ‘started’ it. Maybe not and really I am not so interested in history except as a guide to the present day. And yesterday on TV marches/riots all over Europe about “Muslims” and I think well ‘perfect Jewish agenda’ now the Christians and Muslims fight each other and they are both screwed. In Dublin (Ireland) there were marches and ‘counter’ marches. People at each other’s throats no Jews to be seen anywhere but it is a ‘hidden hand’ By their actions they have made the ME unlivable for so many people there they chase them to Europe and of course the Europeans are so stuffed to the gills about ‘neo nazis’ etc they CANNOT assert themselves. Like Gretchen people will be down on them by NOON calling them ‘morons’ and ‘imbeciles’ and ‘neo nazis’. Sad and mad world.

      Reed’s book makes this Jewish ‘separation’ seem a truly malign force in the world and his book was written in the 1950’s and he predicted more and more wars and mayhem as a result of them gaining Palestine and so it has come about. And I fear the worst is yet to come, they will not rest until Iran is ruined maybe Russia after that. To me “Jewish separation’ and ‘specialness’ is a truly malign force and all the kind weak political correctness we have read here this morning is just so much froth and repetition of standard propaganda the people in the West are now full of. People are literally brain washed and of course they get upset if that is pointed out to them. People are mostly just sheep……………….

  157. This is one of the super rare occasions I’ve had to reach for 0.25mg of Xanax. I prefer being completely med-free in every way, shape, and form. I am disappointed.

  158. Jack says:

    I have long contended that all cultures tend to be somewhat isolationist in nature. I know my own culture does the same. However, I personally find culture to be counter productive to being myself. I don’t want to be representative or represented by my supposed culture. It is a pure accident that I was born British or of the so called Western Culture.

    I will forever strive to be JUST me. Be that good, bad or indifferent.


    • zuzich says:

      Right. Just be yourself, Jack.

      • Jack says:

        Thanks John. How are you doing???? Good to know that you read the blog at least.

        I still remember that poodle dog picture that you dug up from somewhere all dolled-up and saying:- “Be yourself”. Jim and I still laugh over that.


        • zuzich says:

          All is well, Jack. Fondly remember that “be yourself” moment we had at that long ago retreat. Enjoy your input on the blog. By the by, got you by 3 years, just celebrated number 86.

          • John: And there was me thinking I held the age number. Ah well I suppose second place has some value; cept who knows another may jump in there.

            I remember quite a few events when you came in with Vivian holding the cake and I thought it was for someone else. Quite a moment for me, as well as reaching that three score number.

            Hope you put your twopenuth in from time to time. I take it you’re still in the land of “luck”


  159. As a brief addition to the Tom Perkins link I provided above, I am reminded of my own Catholic upbringing. I used to receive lots of Christmas presents when I was little, and there was always this overhang of guilt that I received so many presents. My cousins and their mother would come along and felt I had too much all to myself with my big pile of toys, so under some form of psychological duress they would pressure me into giving away several of my toys.

    I was conditioned that way by my father’s family from the time I was little. Perhaps it was the Catholic way of feeling guilty for having too much and that’s what kept me down.

    What would happen if a billionaire had this pile of presents? Would they say to the cousins, “How dare you even question my pile of presents much less touch them or take them? BACK OFF!!” Maybe this extraordinarily selfish behavior is an absolute necessity to be a big shot in today’s dog-eat-dog world:

    “I may have too much, but I’ll take my chances, cause God stopped keeping score.”

  160. Margaret says:

    > Guru, do you call them voraciously avarious just because they were successful working with money?
    > would you like to be referred to like that, or your family if being into the money business?
    > not saying most are not voracious in that sector, but to glue it onto an ethnic backgroud seems not that neutral really.
    > one factor might be that in many countries laws were installed at some point limiting Jewish people to only work in the financial field, as that was prohibited by catholic church to their members, they could not earn money by lending it out to gain some.
    > so they were simply often forced into that sector and than were smart enough to be successful, like some people I know would also like to be..
    > this all is feeling a bit like some waste of time and energy, except for Daniels comments which are always worth reading.
    > glad I worked up my way through the 33 comments of this morning, deleting a lot of them while skipping through them as quickly as possible..
    > felt too much like some kind of pre-school playground in a bad sense..
    > time for other things now here, I mean here for me at home.
    > one thing that remained kind of vague was what upset you so much Guru, to need the Xanax??
    > M

  161. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > that was a good quote you posted, I had just sent in mine about the Jewish people being forced into finance business but yours might appear before mine does on the blog..
    > so we are on the same wavelength here.
    > M

    • Margaret:
      Yes, I have posted something very similar to what you explained to me. Right now I am just tired after posting to Leslie a minute ago and my mental energy is spent. I want to say some more about the points raised in that quote I posted along with what you explained, but…I just am not ready for that yet.

      I took the Xanax because I was suddenly dealing with three potential conflicts at once (Daniel, Patrick, and Leslie).

      1/8mg is a super small dose. Xanax works great for anxiety, but the price paid is that the anxiety tends to be slightly worse than what you started with once it wears off. This anxiety feedback loop can be very painful to break when high dosages (1-3mg) are regularly taken and it is why it’s a Schedule IV drug for addiction potential (along with Valium) here in the USA.

      I will try to look at the history of Jews and money a bit later, but today is a day of holy observance I must dutifully prepare for and to worship: Super Bowl Sunday.

  162. Margaret says:

    > just wanted to add that what I said about all the comments except Daniels reminding me of a small children’s playground did not apply to all the comments and everyone really, it was just an overall and too generalized expression of irritation.
    > hope not everyone feels targeted.
    > and some are only partially, smiley.
    > and yes, I know, I am not perfect either, noone has to be.
    > one thing I’d like to ask though is that when you have a typo somewhere, please do not post a new comment correcting that typo as my screenreader tends to go through the whole tedious cycle of reading the heading of the coment etc etc to then finally say it is really about nothing important, another few precious minutes of my time and too mugh catching of my attention as although I try to ignore the trivial stuff about wordpress it seems imposssible not to pay attention really.
    > after 33 comments before breakfast those things tend to irritate me, noone’s fault but just letting people know here..
    > we know you know you made a typo, and I know I make them and sometimes am just too lazy to bother correcting them at once..
    > M

  163. Margaret says:

    > no need for a reply to this one either, but just for the record, Patrick is putting words in my mouth I have never said.
    > it is also ironical he complains about generalizations while that is actually one of his major flaws in his reasoning all the time.
    > one can for example, like I do to some degree though I admit not to have sufficient information to form a strong opinion about it, oppose the current Israeli political attitude in regard to Palestinians and to the Arabian citizens of the country.
    > but it is a major leap and a completely unfounded one to go from there and say all that stuff about ‘the Jews’.
    > that is one example of racist prejudice as a true textbook case of blaming an entire group of people to have all the same bad characteristics.
    > and well, I did read some books as well in my life so far, and as far as what I have read it was not the Jewish people that inspired Hitler but actually Ford, the one of the cars, who before the war already had tendentious publications with strong racist ideas.
    > please no lecture back about this, and certainly no book titles of holocaust deniers, and I do not understand why Patrick sees that word as an insult to them as isn’t proving that the whole point of what they write?
    > but logic seems not a priority there.
    > guru, thanks for your friendly reply.
    > M

  164. Jack says:

    In response to no-one and nothing in particular.

    Today a couple of feelings going for me and the first is “Feeling so good to be alive” as I sat in the sun with clear blue skies and contemplating some of things going on in my life. The other was how alive the blog is right at this moment. So many comments, all of which I gobble up, and actually feel I learn a lot from them about other peoples and their ideas.

    I sure have my own ideas, prejudices and pre-conceived notions about most being discussed, but I don’t, as of now, feel the need to relate my feelings about them. BUT (can’t resist this one). To believe or not believe something is to admit I don’t really know. I have for some time known that I tend to want to use the word with the intent of making believe be closer to knowing that not knowing. Whereas, I’d rather avoid the use if that word An example would be to believe the sun is out there and our little blue planet is flying around it. I have been told so, many many times; but is it so???I I don’t really know. What I do know is that my senses (feelings) would lead me to feel that is true. The only truth I can ever possibly know is what I feel. That is why I have trepidation about “Truth” and “False”, “Fact and fiction”, even “good and bad”, or for that matter “up and down”


    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Jack. Talking about belief. I think our unrecognized feelings can make our beliefs inflexible and unchangeable. The more I face or sink into my fears, the more I’m freer to see other sides of things. I no longer feel as threatened by a different point of view, or have too much anxiety or resistance to consider it. I hope that leads to more understanding about others . Anyway, as you’ve said , there are times you just feel good to be alive and feel open to what’s going on around us.

  165. Daniel says:

    I don’t wish to get into your anti-Israeli arguments, Patrick, although I think most of them are ludicrous, beyond saying that again and again you’re mixing up Israel and Jewish history, even though Israel is but a tiny dot in that history. You do combine the two into a politically driven grand theory where Jews throughout history and up to the present are some kind of a huge octopus with arms all around the globe, sucking it dry and masterminding the clash of countries, societies and civilizations in order to somehow benefit from it.

    These ideas, taken right out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the most infamous anti-Semitic document from the 19th century, and very often repeated in Nazi propaganda, mean that Jews are a dangerous enemy of the entire world. From here one need take only a small step to conclude that Jews must be purged from the face of the earth they so greatly endanger.

    But I do want to say something about being the so called ‘Chosen People’, because this one is easily misunderstood. To understand this biblical idea one must look for its meaning in the Jewish tradition and theological writings. Oh, I know there are some moron Jews who invest the term with their own personal conceit and arrogance but they too fail to understand its meaning and their beliefs in this matter only attest to their superficiality and ignorance.

    Have you ever wandered, chosen for what? Well, the bible is very clear about that: To follow God’s rules, to be what we would call today ‘moral’. And what do the Israelites do at that momentous occasion of first receiving those laws (commandments) on Mount Sinai? They build a golden calf, i.e they don’t follow God’s rules from the very start. From then on the bible is replete with God’s fury over his own choice, and every now and then God wants to get rid of them all. Most of the prophets’ speeches are just about that – either reproaching the Israelites for their immoral behaviors, or pleading with God to forgive them.

    So, in Jewish tradition it’s never about being better than anybody else but about doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord, or pretty much to be moral. It is a burden, not a privilege, and as any one of us can confirm it is a heavy burden that we all, like those Israelites, keep coming back to and forth from. It is an eternal mission never fully achieved.

  166. Already getting hot in early February in the San Fernando Valley. I dread it. Good group Friday nite. My first in a long long while. I talked about 3 dead pets and marriage with Z. Felt like at one point that I could shout because the massive amount of pain in the last 2 years has been crippling, but I felt too shy. Only 5 of us cult-members were there besides the cult-mistress and I pretty much knew them all, and at some point I was feeling a little safe, but what can I say. I was scared to go into the group but GB made me feel good by talking to me about pets and kids. No tears until yesterday Saturday when I used the primal room at the end of the hall with music. During Group, we were all looking forward to doing the cult-thing, you know, with the kool-ade, but a raccoon had crawled into the attic and had hoarded said Koolade in his new hiding place, and then drank too much of it, and now his stinking corpse is impossible to bear, for those with sensitive noses. You know I am kidding, hopefully not saying stupid shit like I am prone to do. I felt I was being so negative when I talked in group; group members were cool with it. Negative talk is my Grandma,I think she was always muttering to herself, or complaining to me, or something, seemed very unhappy, and she had every right to be, Great Depression happening and then her husband dying during that Depression, 3 daughters to raise on her own, and she had to do menial jobs to survive with my mon and her 2 sisters in a hard and cruel world, and then her daughter/my mom died of Polio so she had to raise me and my brother when she was 50 and probably had had enough shit by that point in her life, but I guess religion kept her going. Later that night, I was overly sensitive and I thought Z was being negative when I said I was going to walk the dog, and she said You already walked her today, which struck me as a negative comment and it angered me and so I reacted, why was she saying that. And so we argued for a minute or 2. Anyway, cried a lot with the music on Saturday, about the losing the pets, and then it segued into the loss of my great life at age 11 or so when we moved from Hollywood to Long Beach. Losing my good aunt, uncle, and the 4 story brick hotel that they managed, the basement that was under the hotel with smells of sawdust and cheese from being under the Italian deli that also on the hotel, , my 3rd grade girl friend, the Boys Club I would go to in the summer, walking with my aunt and her Chiuauauas down the street, the fig tree in our yard that my brother would climb to scaled the fence that divided our yard from the hotel back yard; even being alone in our house after school, laying on the living room floor reading comic books or watching old movies on the black and white tv. Even being alone was good there, since I knew my aunt and uncle were next door in the hotel, maybe my brother was there with my uncle in his workshop, doing hotel repairs. Then kind of seeing hazily our last day there, and maybe me and my brother piling into the 54 Ford my grandma drove us away in. I saw more memories there, wanted to write this last night but I didn’t get to it. No relief or I don’t know if I got relief. I don’t think I am done with this pain. While crying the pain seems to push up into my head and brains like it is being forced out of my body, and a lot of pressure into my head, maybe my jaws, probably I never was able to say anything about how this move made me feel. Can’t really explain it the sensation, I think that this pushing it is okay and totally organic, and it definitely feels good while crying. Anyway, devastastion is what I felt at this move away from all that was good in my young life.. Blue aint the word for the way I felt. Knocked off my feet. Whipped around by Life again, after loss of mother at age 10 months and the carelessness with which the various parent figures that kept me alive for the next few years. It wasn’t my fault that we had to move from Hollywood, a move that really cemented the crippling of my soul and body to this day. Also, memories of good eating in Hollywood, Sunday dinner in our dining room or going to the Ontray Cafeteria with Aunt, Uncle, Grandma, brother and me, on Sundays. Which I come to feel or see how this hooks into my overeating somehow; it was clearer yesterday . So I wasn’t so hungry today, but I am sure that no permanent cure of eating to drown out my pain will happen. I had a thought today that a memory refresh of this kind could possibly delay Alzheimers, unless of course I have abused the rest of my organs so much in my lifetime, that I don’t make it to Alzheimer-time.

  167. I am glad everyone is able to get your anger triggered so easily in this blog. Maybe chill out and watch Lisa Lampanelli on youtube. She kids every race and I find this refreshing. Probably some dont see it that way. Racism, sexism, different-personism has surely brought about innumerable horrific acts towards peoples, probably even before we were peoples, if you believe what Jane Goodall and others have observed with chimpanzees in the wild. But it is not like you are sitting in group. You see the person’s name, you can page down if you don’t want to read stuff that makes you feel bad. So I am not sure what is going on with this line of discussion. I think some of us really got fucked over as kids, some more violently than most, and all this discussion seems to be hiding real feelings. Whatever. Z and Kid watch Reality prison shows a lot, which I don’t really like to watch that much, but even though I abhor the cruelty that the prisoners have perpetrated, I think that their terrible childhoods negated any possibility of a normal non-violent adult life.

  168. Sylvia says:

    Hi Otto, sounds like you’ve really got to some feelings and have progress. Great.
    I’ve watched ‘Dog, the Bounty Hunter’ where he supposedly is going after felons who have skipped out on bail and may resist. When he or his wife get them into the car they all react like children, crying to finally a sympathetic ear. They just want to be with their families and not hauled off to a caged life.

  169. Phil says:

    Sounds like a great group for you the other day. I wish I had a regular group to attend.
    You say all this discussion seems to be hiding real feelings, which is probably true. There also can be some truth in the points being made. I don’t want to discuss here my feelings which are coming up and have them ridiculed and invalidated. This isn’t any kind of real group like the one you attended; it can be good for something but to me not so much with way it’s currently been functioning. It has never worked for me to try to just scroll past and ignore certain messages or delete certain emails. I am a fast reader and usually can see what they are about with one glance, and then it is already too late.

  170. Larry says:

    Here are more statistics for you to ponder, UG and anyone interested in this stuff. From the Nobel Prize website, “Between 1901 and 2015, the Nobel Prizes and the Prize in Economic Sciences were awarded 573 times to 900 people and organizations. With some receiving the Nobel Prize more than once, this makes a total of 870 individuals and 23 organizations.”

    Quoted in Nicolas Wade’s 2006 book “Before the Dawn, Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors”, “Jews and half Jews, who make up about 0.2 percent of the world’s population, have won a total of 155 Nobel prizes in all fields” writes the anthropologist Melvin Konner in 2003. (There were likely more between 2003 and 2015 – Larry).

    I’m very grateful to all peoples and societies who have contributed to our collective knowledge and wisdom.

    • Larry: As Arthur Janov has kindly and insistently pointed out, our brains are exquisitely complicated and we all turn into empty dried-out skulls and skeletal husks eventually, so it won’t matter who won what and where.

      If it would make everyone feel more comfortable for me to say Jews generally are better than the rest of us, that’s fine, I’ll play along with it, OK?

      I just have to focus on other things in general.

      • Larry says:

        While we are alive it does matter what kind of life we make, UG. It is the primary preoccupation.

        Please say whatever you want. Diverse informed opinions add to discussion and open minds, if we are willing to be open.

        Who says they “are generally better than the rest of us”. I’m saying there is so much uninformed negativity on the blog these days, pitting “them” against us, that I want to insert another angle, perhaps add some balance and mention I’m grateful for the contributions of all peoples to our collective wisdom and welfare, and from what I read the Jewish people have contributed their share or more. It’s just more information and ‘statistics’ to ponder.

        • Larry:
          Say whatever I want? OK. Menial chores start to infuriate me after a while. They leave me tired, aching pain all the time, and unwilling to put up the good fight in life any longer. This is where multi-million dollar economic damage lawsuits come in. If I had been the lucky recipient of one of those, I could hire a housekeeper much as my ancestors did before my own tragic downfall. With a helpful housekeeper in tow, I would have more energy to actively and intellectually explore what you are proposing to explore here.

          • Larry says:

            OK UG. Sometimes you (as do others) bring up questions and topics that sometimes I want to address, but not if it makes you want to reach for the Xanax. I am the same in that there are times when I don’t want to or can’t put the time or energy into the discussion happening on the blog.

  171. Hey Leslie, Wow how exciting! The last little bird has left the nest. I do understand it’s a mixed bag, missing them but happy they are making a life. Both your boys are doing so well. You and Barry have a million reasons to be proud. Of course the job is never done but it is also exciting to see what this next chapter brings for you and Barry. Please say hi to him! I can’t wait to see you both – Gretch

    • Leslie says:

      Thank you Gretchen!
      I do want to mention although great our children did experiment & experience a lot that
      kept us awake at night! Lots of bumps along our roads for all of us to survive and learn from in a very real way.
      And how true about never being done. I didn’t fully get that til a few years ago. More people get added into the circle too – more people to love and worry about :).

      Would love to see you and Barry up here! Imagine how far your American $$ go !!
      ox L

  172. Hey John Z., It’s nice to see you hear on the blog ! I hope you are well and maybe you can visit sometime! Gretchen

    • zuzich says:

      Gretchen, thank you. Hope all is well with you. Recently, thoughts turned again to those long-ago years at the PI (happens periodically), googled the topic, and found this blog. Look forward to visiting when I next go to L.A., as well as joining in the posts. John Z.

  173. Otto, So glad you came to group. Thanks for your very funny post! Gretch

  174. Jo says:

    This is so good to hear, and to know that some children are being supported already in some schools…they are in with a chance for good mental health.

    • Leslie says:

      This really is something Jo – when you think of the Royal Family actually being so down- to – earth and addressing emotional/mental health. Children learning to identify and talk about feelings. It is very hopeful isn’t it.
      I read about these elementary schools that have special “buddy benches” where if at recess or lunch you feel lonely or want a friend you go sit on the bench and there are volunteer peers who will come to sit with you or perhaps play with you.
      4x’s a week for tennis – amazing! So glad for you that you have 2 homes.
      ox L.

      • Jo says:

        Yes, hopeful Leslie, and the ‘buddy benches’ is something too.
        I believe Nick (Barton) invited her also to be patron for his addiction charity.
        I hope you both are able to get to La Casa 😊

        • Jo: I remember talking to someone last year about Nick working with Kate Middleton, but I was fuzzy on the details as to whether there was an actual collaboration with Action on Addiction.

          At the very least it seems apparent that the Royal Family agrees with Nick’s philosophies and they may have actually been influenced by him.

          • Jo says:

            Nick was Chief exec of Action on addiction till the end of last year, and Kate is patron of the organization..
            I agree, Nick’s influence is rife in high places…. and “…..Nick has been in a leadership role with Action on Addiction and with one of its predecessors for 26 years and has made not only a massive contribution to the organisation but, of equal importance, to the cause of disarming addiction in all parts of society. We salute him for his amazing devotion and hard work” says the guy who has taken over from him.

        • Patrick says:

          This business about Nick Barton…………first thought I have how come such a ‘believer’ in PT don’t set up something in England and satisfy the thirst of the teeming masses over there. Well I guess there is no longer a great thirst…….. why? Something that was supposed to be so ‘universal’ and yet it can’t seem to get out of LA. What’s up with that?

          And then I’m thinking he is great pals with for example the billionaire heiress of the Swedish packaging company and now the Royal Family. And I thought again about how ‘conventional’ primal is or has become. Like can you get more conventional that the future Queen with her dead eyes and fake smile (my take) It seems any kind of ‘revolutionary zeal’ is long gone…………… reason I kind of wanted to inject it with a bit of “Irish revolutionary zeal” but it seems not to be appreciated.

  175. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > very wellwritten and touching comments.
    > there does seem some kind of shift to be going on, hopefully at some point you will start noticing some kind of relief.
    > hope you keep writing.
    > M

  176. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > just read your comment about the word ‘chosen’, thanks for the extra info, it are pieces that fall down for me in a bit of a clearer pattern.
    > I have with great pleasure read several books of David Grossman,sometimes hilarious, sometimes heartbreaking, but always so very human and feeling.
    > he describes often in a very funny way how (some) Jewish people have a god they argue with all the time, are angry at, bargain with, etc.
    > he also mentions the many many rules specially orthodox people have to live by.
    > there seem indeed to be huge differences of style between those who live as orthodox and even between those as between any humans the differences are of course many.
    > I live between them so I can know.
    > I liked the word ludicrous you used for Patricks arguments.
    > that might be the best way to look at them probably.
    > danger exists of course if people with power would go that way.
    > I am not saying he is like that, but I hate to imagine what a president like Donald Trump might have for disastrous effects.
    > he is clearly so full of himself and so arrogant and demeaning it feels like he is a dangerous man in some ways.
    > hope there are enough Americans with a bit of common sense..
    > M

    • Daniel says:

      I too like David Grossman’s writings very much and think he has a special gift for describing human minds and relationships in a deep and involving way.

      While we’re talking about books, I also recently really loved Let the Great World Spin by Colum McCann. There is so much beauty and wisdom in this book. The plot revolves around how an unusual day, the day Philippe Petit high-wire walked between the two tops of the World Trade Center in 1974, changes the lives of some New Yorkers and others they know and don’t know. It’s a great book.

      • Patrick says:

        Daniel – a movie was made about that a few years ago which I saw. The guy that did it is ‘impressive’ but I kept thinking to what end? i am afraid of heights also or at least about my only real nightmares (rare thank God) involves being about to fall from a great height (horrible feeling) In that movie once that guy was 1/2 way across I kept thinking ‘you f…..idiot once you get back IF you get back stay the f… there’ And he survived it all I wonder though if something happened to him it seems often ‘daredevils’ do come to grief in the end but I have no actual knowledge about this guy

      • Larry says:

        Thanks Margaret and David for throwing out the names of those authors. I’ve read several fact based books lately, and am looking for a change of pace and the chance to escape into a novel of beauty, wisdom, and humanity.

        I saw the recent movie about the French high wire walker. He is still alive. I heard an interview of him on the radio perhaps last autumn. What impressed me watching the movie was how brave he was to pursue his lofty goal, how confident he was in his ability, and how well he was able to control or confront his fear.

        He didn’t have his parent’s support to earn a living wire walking. I wonder whether the twin tower walk was a way to vanquish in him their doubts about him. Beyond that though, from the interview he just seems to be a person who believes our life is made of feelings, and we can’t let fear dominate and hold us down.

        • Daniel says:

          There is actually an excellent documentary about him called Man on a Wire which won an academy award a few years back. The man did these kind of things in all sorts of places all over the world. There is something fascinating about him.

  177. Margaret says:

    > could hardly believe my ears when I just heard Donald Trump say that when he gets voted he will not only reinstall waterboarding but much stronger stuff than that as well…
    > scary, and scary he uses it as a means to gain votes..
    > it kind of reflects the darkest side of us humans, wanting deliberately to inflict pain, something I know no anumal species to do.
    > M

  178. Barry M says:

    Patrick, a very impressive list of novels that you listed on your Feb. 6th. post in response to being labelled uneducated. How DID you stay awake? Over the years in raising two sons I have read, discussed, memorized and yes, even had dreams about many, many books by Dr. Seuss et. al. Does that make me a child?
    I find it telling however that you ignored the ‘ignorant’, ‘arrogant’ and ‘cruel’ missives directed at you by Leslie on Feb. 5th. Does your acceptance of these not trouble you?
    I have another question I would like you to consider. In your childhood you hopefully had someone who loved you unconditionally – someone you ran to when you hurt, who you got a hug from when you were sad, whose face lit up when they saw you, who forgave you instantly when you messed up. If you are able to be really introspective, would that caring, loving, accepting individual be happy about, or, probably more importantly, be proud of the person you have become?

    • Patrick says:

      Barry – I not only stayed awake but pretty much loved every minute of it. Good or bad I am glad to find things that challenge me and interest me. About the ‘ignorant, arrogant and cruel’ well……………I thought I would just take on one that Leslie mentioned ‘un-educated’ I thought I might be able to deal with that. I think ‘ignorant’ might also be covered kind of in the same way.. As far as arrogant and cruel…………..what can I say it’s Leslie’s opinion/feeling I decided/decide to leave it at that. Should I try to ‘argue’ about it and start a whole other round. I think people me included are a bit exhausted already without making it worse.

      As to your second question………..I would say I had that (unconditional love) here and there and from different people at different time (my Grandad, my Dad, my Grandma) that’s probably about it and even them fitudlly I would not say it was something that persisted forever and ever and something I could count on though my Dad was always ‘on my side’ and supportive and I felt he loved me but not in the kind of ‘ideal’ way you describe. Who has that really? some people I suppose (the lucky ones)

      So wouid my Dad be proud of the person I have become? I know he felt ‘disappointing’ in me in that I did not pursue a kind of ‘standard career’ like Medicine or Engineering. So overall no he probably would not be that proud of me. But it has taken me a long time to realize the first thing is to please myself so I am not sure that what you mention is a test of anything really. But as far as my ‘fighting’ or ‘standing up for myself” he DID support me in that and I took strength and courage from that but like a lot of things maybe I took a little TOO much (strength and courage) It was a very bid deal for me though I was being badly bullied in school and one day I just got sick of it and erupted and punched one of my tormentors out. I was worried then what my Dad might say but he told me I was in the right and it was important for me to be able to stand up for myself and he even added if I remember that he was proud of me. So maybe that’s one reason now I see no reason to back down from a fight if I feel it necessary

    • Patrick says:

      Barry (or anyone else). I am reminded of this song an oldie but a goodie and a sentiment I agree with right now. I would rather please myself than somehow be ‘thought well of’ by others and that includes ‘teachers and therapists’ lol

  179. Margaret says:

    > Dear Otto,
    > was laying on the couch, thinking about what you wrote among other things, and thinking back about my former cat and how I had to let her go about ten months ago.
    > I felt there was still something there, and just talking out loud to her immediately took me into the feeling, I only needed to say like two words and started crying deeply for a very long time.
    > it still amazes me how much pain is triggered by this, and you had to go through it three times in such a short period of time.
    > if you feel bad and would want to cry maybe try talking to them, it sure works for me.
    > the pain is crude, not really like most other primal feelings so far, where there was always more feling of relief in the sense of feeling something was falling into place and that being a good thing.
    > now with this the pain is prevalent and only rationally I know it is good to go through it, although in a way I also feel it.
    > the sadness is just still too big.
    > M

    • Margaret says:

      > p.s. the crying about what I had to decide for my cat at some point slightly changed into another flavour of hopeless sadness, which seemed more like connected to my own early pain.
      > it sounded young, so maybe, as it was just hopelessly sad, it was connected to the weeks I had to remain as a two year old in some kind of orphanage while my mom had to go through an operation.
      > having access tothis kind of stuff is a great quality that Primal therapy offers.
      > to keep stuff like that inside forever can only be very detrimental to one’s general state of health, also mentally.
      > M

  180. John Z. , I’m so glad! – Barry M. , Really interesting post I thought! – Patrick, We can be ourselves, hold on to our beliefs, even fight for them if needed but still be open to the feedback of others. These things can co- exist I think. If we do not allow ourselves to listen to the views of others we are, in a way, saying ” I can never be wrong”. I think we can all agree that is pretty much impossible. I don’t know for sure but I interprete Leslie’s comment to mean that we can’t be truly educated on a subject without reading or studying multiple views otherwise there is no critical thinking involved. We are taking someone else’s views as our own in a sense. When I decided to become a therapist I studied all therapies for instance. Did it make me a better therapist ? I don’t think so actually but it did give me a better understanding of therapy and of Primal. It allowed me a different kind of certainty about what I was choosing to do beyond and in addition to the experience I had as a patient. Gretchen

    • Leslie says:

      Hi Gretchen,
      Although I agree with what you wrote too, I actually feel that the education that Patrick needs does not come from books. In fact, that he holes up and reads so much and spends so many solitary hours on the computer looks to be the worst thing for him.
      He believes he is getting better, and yet all I see is such a downward spiral since the time I first read him on the blog, and met him at the Retreat.
      ox L

      • Phil says:

        All of these conspiracy theories are the opinion of a very small minority. These things, of course, are really not in question for almost all people and not even questioned, except possibly vaccines. I don’t want to debate further on any of this. But it is so striking to me the pattern of picking such extreme views. Maybe they are all related and consistent with a certain world view, or are they picked precisely because they are unpopular and extreme? I wonder if there are any conspiracy theories or cover-ups that Patrick would reject. Sightings of Elvis, for example.

      • Patrick says:

        BTW Leslie I don’t spent that much time ‘in front of a computer’ I read actual books remember. Something Phil could really use imo it’s not only his son that needs to ‘break open the books’ lol. He seems stuck in ‘most people think’ mode and though it is really not my place to say it I can see why his son might ‘rebel’ against such ‘knowledge’
        BTW Phil you seem to be making some ‘progress’ on the vaccine issue could it be I even have a little ‘influence’…………probably not…….

    • Patrick says:

      Well Gretchen that IS what I feel I have been doing! Getting other sides of a story that is. We are all by definition exposed to the kind of ‘standard stories’ why would there be any need to ‘re-study’ them. I have set out to get the other side of some of these stories and my conclusion is a LOT of the standard stories we are told over and over are on some very thin ice indeed. I think this over time has become a bigger and bigger factor we are all inundated by ‘media’ all the time and the techniques of deception/advertising have become more and more sophisticated. It seems ‘lies’ are a very big factor now unfortunately.If we really are in the age of ‘fake terror’ of events that are just staged to appear like ‘terror’ which I do believe we are well that’s kind of a spooky feeling……………I just saw some signs for the LA Marathon and I’m thinking will something ‘happen’ there and then I think probably/hopefully not we have had San Bernadino just recently maybe they will let this one pass…………….actually I don’t like thinking like that just saying though what crossed my mind when I saw the LA Marathon info………………

  181. What an asshole. I have had enough. I drove this person from the valley to culver city so they could do some semi-medical thing. after a long hard day at work. and i never get anything from this person. except when are you going to do this, when are you going to do that? Oh i forgot peanut butter yesterday, can you make another stop on the way home, it will only take a minute. And then::i have an idea, lets do this money thing that i am thinking about, just because i have fucked up our money with crazy ideas like this before means nothing. oh look at that pet store, at least we wont have to be buy catfood packets anymore (for the dead cat). insensitive fucking cunt. You not trying to share your feelings about the cat, if you are trying to, your fucking shorthand way of talking doesnt cut it for me. Even if it is such a fucking big thing for you too. If you cant put some grief tone of voice in what you say, at least put the right words there. like I FEEL BAD (that we wont have to buy catfood packets anymore). or dont say a fucking thing. you DO deserve to be spoken to that way. I go out of my way to take your somewhere in rush hour traffic, you keep mentioning places to pick up something to eat that will take a long time for them to prepare, jesus h christ! I feel bad that i talk to you that way, but you are fucking stupid and annoying. We could listen to the doctor talk show about sex on the radio that happens at this hour as we are driving home but you are such a fucking child that i cannot listen to it with you, you blaming shaming bitch. go fuck yourself. Now the kid wants to borrow the car after he totalled his motorcycle and i had second thoughts, even though he needs to go clean up some law mess from years ago, that i am responsible for because i was a stupid stupid careless father, so i feel bad. he can rent a car or wait a week till i can get off and go with him. I am so fucking tired of this shit. She used to give me sex. now there is nothing to the nth degree. Of course, why would she do that, i dont like her. I dont like her because she gives me nothing. NOTHING but misery. Sure that is the same as my childhood, but this is just as bad. Needy fucking asshole. And then you or i are going to die at some point, and the whole fucking thing is shit. shit shit shit. tired of this fucking shit. Did I mention LONG HARD DAY AT WORK, to put a fucking roof over your non-giving self?

  182. Patrick says:

    Hopefully not to make things any worse but to try to ‘explain’…………..when I call Jack a ‘rude name’ it is not really meant as meaning anything specific about ‘gay people’ or whatever it is just that a ‘rude name’. And it is schoolyard behavior but from my feeling about it at that time (and who knows in the future those things can never be ruled out)………..schoolyard behavior in that all this ‘quoting back’ he was doing at the time. To be if just felt like being constantly mocked and ‘imitated’. I don’t know about anyone else here but I can remember this ‘imitation game’ where you just repeat and imitate whatever the other child said purely as mockery and total and complete ‘non communication’ and in Jack’s case all the time masquerading as some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make. I appreciate he has kind of left me alone during my latest jihad (lol) maybe he figured I had enough on my hands…………..whatever I appreciate any peace I can get from that quarter and also I suspect because he is mostly in agreement about the bad behavior of Israel. Jack is ‘smart’ is not a fool at all just a little too much on the PR side for me -a ‘salesman’ for himself and primal abolish money HIS VERY OWN ‘theory’ finally at last out from under Janov’s coat tails well not really but something – .But then he calls me a ‘salesman’ well maybe I can be but imo I am typically ‘selling’ more than just ’causes’ at least the way I see it usually have some concern for others or the ‘general good’ but whatever maybe that is also my Catholic ‘brain washing’ where we were always meant to think of others ahead of ourselves. I thought about that today that is kind of perfect double whammy first off deny the child’s needs and then tell them they should NEVER think or complain about that but ALWAYS think of others first.

    Leslie I kind of like that ‘downward spiral’ yeah it’s something like that I have been trying to do I am glad you think I might be ‘succeeding’ lol………I mean a downward spiral out of mediocrity and the kind of middle of the road dog food we are all meant to believe like zika virus and muslim ‘terrorists’ be afraid be very afraid, one thing I read today some ‘scientists’ are thinking of using biting mosquitoes as a way of delivering vaccines……………….now what a ‘cool’ idea that is I mean what could possibly go wrong lol……………

  183. Phil says:

    I read that book about HIV that you recommended. I have looked at websites about the other issues which you have talked about. Nothing I have seen leads me to want to do more reading. I haven’t changed my views on vaccines. It’s just that there does seem to be sizable number of people against them. I am open to new information coming out which would be convincing.
    You haven’t answered my question about conspiracies and cover-ups. Just out of curiosity are there some you don’t believe in? Some people think the government has covered up evidence of UFOs, for example. What do you think on that one?

    • Patrick says:

      So Phil you have gone from ‘flat earth’ to “UFO’s”…………..meanwhile the only doubt you have on vaccines has to do with “there does seem to be sizable number of people against them” Aren’t you in the medical field in some capacity do YOU have any opinion or feeling if you want Jack’s approval…………what do YOU think or feel if you want Jack’s approval that never seems to come in very much what YOU think I mean……..

      • Phil says:

        Flat earth, UFOs and, Elvis sightings to me are all of comparable quality to the beliefs on your list. My question is,how do you decide which ones to include?

      • Phil says:

        You should go back and reread that post. I haven’t expressed any doubts at all about vaccines. All I said was that there is a fair number of people opposed to them.
        To me, this is at least partly an education problem.

  184. Jack says:

    Quote:- “’…………..when I call Jack a ‘rude name’ it is not really meant as meaning anything specific about ‘gay people’ or whatever it is just that a ‘rude name’.” That does’t quite explain why you do it. To repeat in the hope that something might just penetrate. That is exactly what is meant by crooked thinking a la Thuless. BTW the book is readily available for you to read …. whenever you get to reading something that might, just might, be some thing on the other side of your tracks.

    Why am I so important enough to have a whole dissertation written about me. It made good reading for me, after I had deciphered the apparent meaning behind it.

    Why is being quoted so irksome for you??????


    • Patrick says:

      My God man do you READ? or are you too busy ‘quoting’ It seems you are because let me quote myself now and this is just continuing the bit you quoted and it is exactly about this why I don’t care for your ‘quoting’ charade

      “And it is schoolyard behavior but from my feeling about it at that time (and who knows in the future those things can never be ruled out)………..schoolyard behavior in that all this ‘quoting back’ he was doing at the time. To me if just felt like being constantly mocked and ‘imitated’. I don’t know about anyone else here but I can remember this ‘imitation game’ where you just repeat and imitate whatever the other child said purely as mockery and total and complete ‘non communication’ and in Jack’s case all the time masquerading as some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make”

      So there………….happy now……………I have TRIED at least to say what it MEANS to me. I can’t help thinking if you would just pay a little attention and calm down and READ it would save you doing one of what you seem to consider your ‘greatest hits’ (to me it’s just another flop but whatever) about ‘crooked thinking’ and Thouless blah blah. As Guru said one time when you go on about ‘crooked thinking’ it means you have nothing to say except to accuse the other person of not being able to ‘think’ Something that is not worth doing anyway according to yourself….

      So maybe you can stop ‘wondering’ now why I don’t like being quoted by you at least from my FEELING. There that should shut you up I am doing things the ‘approved’ way but it probably wont (shut you up about it).

      • Jack says:

        Another quote:- “…….. the other child said purely as mockery and total and complete ‘non communication’ and in Jack’s case all the time masquerading as some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make”” Seemingly according to Phil you seem not able to read either. From what you write on this blog (after initially entering it with hate and venom spewing from your very gut) You now appear to know exactly what goes on in my head, in that I am posing as “some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make” I see clearly (me thinks) why you do, but I never get from you, your explanation of why; you introspection.

        If I am looking for accolades on this blog, I feel, but for very few instances. I like it when they do appear, but that is not what I like most about blogging. I mostly prefer the reading diverse opinions, and definitely other’s feelings about what took place, and is taking place in their lives. I also love the stimulation from most of this.

        Poking you in the sense of Facebook ‘pokes” is my way to get some (perverted) fun and you seemingly get off (whatever getting off entails) on me doing so, as does Guru on lesser occasions. But hey hoo, ‘life’s short ………………..’


  185. Margaret says:

    > I think I want to add some words to Leslies list of ‘qualities’
    > apart from arrogant and cruel what keeps striking me is the judgamentality, careless and unfounded, demeaning, for example to Phil now and to Larry and others in the past.
    > you know as good as nothing about those people yet feel you can label them in an offensive way.
    > that seems to be your worst quality to me right now, repulsive to others and blindfolding you mentally, if you jump so quickly to negative conclusions Patrick, and therefor probably sabotaging your social life big time too.
    > i know it is a defense, have been a bit like that, but more so internally, until I realized myself over and again how wrong I had been so many times and it became clear I was being the stupid one in those cases.
    > and by the way the buddying with someone you don’t know well at a retreat and often don’t even like at first sight, is a great way to unravel those crippling byaasses and prejudices we mostly use on people we fear who might not like us.
    > so often I noticed how I had ‘negative feelings’ about someone that I did not know well but that had so far not shown any interest, labelling them with any criticism at hand, to suddenly ‘unfreeze’ once that person unexpectedly smiled or said or did something nice to me.
    > all of a sudden opening up to possible connection and feeling the glow of hey maybe that person is nice, showed repeatedly what a strong kind of defense ‘disliking ‘ can be, when there is little knowledge or sound experience of interaction.
    > just saying.
    > M

    • Larry says:

      Hard to believe you had a bit of those negative characteristics, Margaret. I guess the difference between you and Patrick is that you have been brave enough to be introspective and willing to learn from it. No wonder you keep sort of coaching and reprimanding Patrick toward better behaviour.

      Me…I think he is pretty much a lost cause. I’ve had to learn there are things I just have to let go of and accept there is nothing I can do to change things….difficult and painful for me to accept in most instances.

  186. Jack says:

    Just another note of mine that was inspired by something Patrick wrote in his last comment; where his Catholic upbringing (brain washing as he characterized it) “to think of others ahead of ourselves” I don’t now read those sciptures the same way. If someone is hurting, insulting or denigrading me, I have no choice but to express my feeling on the matter, but that is a far cry from confronting that person or remark by a counter hurt, insult or dinigration. Instictively I know and attempt to avoid the backlash. That I feel is correct … but that does not necessitate repressing the expression of what I felt.

    In my case, I attempt to get as far away from the person ‘lobbing’ the insults and have my feeling about it/them. After sufficently doing that, I can now resume whatever I was doing in the first place. That, for me avoids the backlash, but still permits my expression of my feeling/s.

    If there is any wisdom in the scrptures; I see it as subliminal, in-so-far as it understood the backlash factor. BUT, alas, did not acknowledge the necessity of expressing ones feeling. I find this a problem in my own life with my Jimbo. He re-acts to me, sometimes in a hurtful manner, but for me to attempt to have it out with him is not productive. In this sense, he is so wrapped up in his feeling he, seemingly. has little time to consider what is taking place in me. My daddy did the very same

    From an old feeling perspective:- as little child I instinctively became rapidly aware of the potential of a backlash, but was unable to know that I could express the feeling, away or out of hear shot of the other, usually a parent. That is what I gleaned from contemplating Patrick’s comment. I don’t necessarily feel anyone else should see it that way, but hopefully shows my way.


  187. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > thanks, I just sent an e-mail to my library asking them about it and whether they have it in stock in some audio version.
    > it is a great library specially designed for people with visual and dyslectic problems. I had them even read in for an audio version The Primal Scream years ago.
    > Larry, if you want to try some really lighthearted and funny but very inventive books, try some of the Flatworld series of Terry Pratchett. they are deliciously absurd and at the same time put their finger on our human weaknesses in a tender way.
    > they are kind of fantasy like in the sense that there are dragons and witches and sorcerers, but none of them are heroes, on the contrary.
    > just reread most of the twenty books and still could not get enough of it, they all felt like friends after a while like good books do.
    > a whole other set of books is The dark tower series of seven books by Stephen King, completely different than all his other books, a long sttory about a quest, needs some patience at first to get into it in the first chapters, but then unfolds to a fabulous and often very primal and moving multifacetted story, that both made me laugh and cry and which I will certainly reread once more, all of the seven books.
    > they will certainly take you along to a similar but also different version of this world.
    > I regret there is hardly any new science fiction being written these days seemingly, have always been inspired by it in the past, it opens so many possible visions when it is wellwritten.
    > could go on about other books but don’t want to overdo it..
    > hope someone can enjoy, M

  188. Margaret says:

    > ha, they have that book from McCann and I’ll get it this week!
    > (for free, long live libraries!!)
    > can’t believe Trump won today after what he said about wanting to reinstall torture etc.
    > a very scary thought to have such a maniac with so much power possibly..
    > M

  189. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > I must confess I have always had curiosity about the ufo stories, smiley.
    > the story about the body of an alien that looked like a small human, with picture and all, was if not true well set up, but as far as I have heard most ufo ‘sightings’ can be brought back to athmospherical or other sources.
    > still, I can’t believe we are the only planet with living creatures in this entire universe, so it somehow still inspires my imagination, as i said, I like science fiction as well.
    > I also like to read about cosmology and the latest findings on the surface of Mars etcetera.
    > but of course that curiosity and interest is far from believing in a conspiracy theory.
    > I do consider it very well possible though many governments would try to keep it a secret to themselves if they’d find really something.
    > smiley, maybe it is our stupidity that keeps them away..
    > what I find also intriguing are the similarities between the macro and micro cosmos, like I was amazed to learn how much emptiness there really is between the relatively small nucleus of an atom and the electrons that surround it.
    > it is like an orange in the middle of a big cathedral and the electrons, even tinier, fly around as far as the outer walls of the cathedral, and in between there is nothing at all.
    > so if you think about that, everything, including us, exist of much more emptiness than matter. that is what I find fascinating.
    > and then the immense velocity of the spin of protons etc. and the way m.r.i. machines use the tiny shifts in those millions of turns in a millisecond and the tiny radio waves they emit when the magnetic fields are modulated, etc, etc,, who said science is boring?
    > makes me think of how nice it can be to study something that interests you, it is a bit like eating, feeding the mind.
    > satisfying.
    > M

  190. Phil says:

    Scientists supported by the government are trying very hard to find habitable planets and any evidence of life on planets near us, like mars. With that in mind, why would the government cover up evidence in the form of UFOs?
    I think the stories end up being something explainable like an aircraft of some type, or someone’s toy.

  191. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > I know.
    > I was merely thinking of this story way back in the seventies or earlier with a picture of an alien, so called alien that was found somewhere in the desert, still alive if I remember well, but dying.
    > then the story went it was all hushed and kept from the public.
    > but well, must have been another set up, many pictures were tricked in sometimes very simple but deceiving ways.
    > still, I hope to run into my own personal meeting with an interesting alien somehow, haha, deep in the bottom of my girlie heart.
    > maybe looking there for gentleness and wisdom as well, filling in what was not there. not to forget interest..
    > picture it like a mutual kind of fascination.
    > reminds me with an unexpected close meeting with a wild fox I once had when we also just stood there for a while looking at each other, a precious moment as the fox saw i meant no harm.
    > still remember his honey coloured transparent eyes with almost a reflexive look. he after half a minute or so just quietly went his way.
    > felt like a privilege.
    > M

  192. Phil says:

    Here’s a list of the 25 most popular conspiracy theories:
    I was just trying to find more conspiracy theories that Patrick could believe in, and if not, find out why, because he seems to set a very low bar as far as evidence.
    Interesting that the one, Paul McCartney is dead shows up. Who is the guy who looks like him, sounds like him, writes songs, and tours? If he is dead it’s irrelevant as his replacement is very talented. Maybe he’s actually an alien.

  193. Margaret says:

    > haha!
    > makes me wonder who else could be an alien..
    > M