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Primal Institute 
I’m surprise to be the first comment. I would have thought others would have beaten me to it.
Jack
testing
Bonjour, malowlaiqn,, first time I’ve been copied in months, and attempts to log on was denied consistently. Thought I’d been excommunicated…. happy new year;best thoughts….
David, happy new year. I don’t think you need to be logged on to participate here. I had wondered what happened to you and thought maybe you got fed up with us.
Phil
Subscribing
sleeping
I tend to avoid checking in on the Primal Institute blogs. It seems the blogs are more the “Jack and Patrick blog,” rather than the Primal blog.
I’d like to think I have dropped out of that particular madness though then again I have thought that before…………………..still I’d be more ‘impressed’ if you would use your name. It seems also though I could be wrong your ‘gravatar’ is the same as the ‘Will Graham” one (and mine for whatever reason) I don’t have the ‘energy’ to look into that any further.I really don’t like that kind of deviousness. If you have something worth saying you should be able to attach your name to it. That kind of ‘precious’ attitude pisses me off maybe keep it for some kind of ‘secret santas’ at retreats. It has a kind of ‘Zionist’ feeling to it…………….annoying………….
Can you say your name now……………….now that you have been ‘called out’…………..probably not……………..fucking annoying…………….
I too would never want to be anonymous, but then that could be deemed another fault. So be it But if you think about it using a pseudonym is also a form of anonymity. A sort of hiding behind something or other psychologically.
Interesting that the blog was seen as the “Jack and Patrick” blog, which in a way sort of is dismissive of the other bloggers, many of which I find very feeling-full. That’s a pity.
However is someone wishes to remain anonymous I can accept that.
Jack
It’s a pity all right. And something you have had a lot to do with with all your ‘quoting back’ Like some demented school teacher without a school………………endlessly ‘grading papers’ and in my case at least pretty much always giving me an “F”. Or even if not always an “F” then a “B” or a “C” or whatever based on MORE ‘judgments’. What a crazy waste of time and also a total refutation of your own ‘theories’. Where ‘theoretically’ NOTHING is ‘judged’ ………….except in reality EVERYTHING is ‘judged’. Right there as in ‘primal’ in general is the vast difference between ‘theory’ and ‘reality’ You are not alone in this of course…………….it goes or comes all the way to/from the top. Just look at the vast difference between Janov’s ‘theories’ and the mostly sad and useless ‘reality’. Something he has never seemed to grapple with just keep on going like a Communist or Zionist ‘philosopher’ insist on his own certainties all going to some ‘agenda’ nobody seems to know, except some ‘elite’ somewhere. Jack you have tried to put yourself in that elite but I don’t see you sitting around the table when he talks about ‘his people’.You are a well known character in history a fanatic on behalf of beliefs he does not understand………………
I accept your critisismm of me and do look into most of it, BUT I do feel a lack of it for yourself. Talking of being judgmental there are a whole host of them in just this one comment … without any back-up I might add. 1) “like some demented school teacher, without a school.” 2) “giving me an “F”. Or even if not always an “F” then a “B” or a “C” or whatever based on MORE ‘judgments’.” 3) “Right there as in ‘primal’ in general is the vast difference between ‘theory’ and ‘reality’ ” 4) “it goes or comes all the way to/from the top. Just look at the vast difference between Janov’s ‘theories’ and the mostly sad and useless ‘reality’” 5) “to grapple with just keep on going like a Communist or Zionist ‘philosopher’ ” 6) “Jack you have tried to put yourself in that elite “. Have I; what elite would that be … that I might wish to be in with????? My own feeling is that I have little desire to be a member of any elite.
I came from the dregs of Lancashire and though I got away from that county and now country have no desire to go back there, but am very aware I am still imbued with what I got born into. As for being a fanatic … yes, you are quite right … but is this a bit of the kettle calling the frying pan black?????
All I am left with is to make the best of what I have left of life. My own feeling is that considering the place I was born into, I feel I got quite a lot out of life. Most of it pure luck. Hope that gives you more to play with in the assumed “Jack and pony show”, presumably entertaining for some.
Jack
OK
Maybe some of the ‘computer savvy’ people could look into or speculate about this. But it seems WHENEVER anybody comes on here as ‘Anonymous’ their ‘gravatar’ is always the same and that is ‘whomever’ they are. Now what’s even more strange is that ‘gravatar’ is ALSO the same as mine.
Almost enough to make one paranoid…………..I picture Barry playing some kind of mind trick on me or maybe worse putting some kind of ‘spell’ on me. Like the Communists or Zionists (same difference mostly) would declare someone who they did not agree with a ‘non person’………..am I a ‘non person’ or an ‘anonymous’ person . Well only he could answer that and that is not his strong department. Let’s see maybe this time…………………going going gone………….
Barry gave me a real mean, deliberately prolonged squint (at least 30 seconds) while he was admitting everybody at Atty’s desk one night just before big group started. I think he was playing a mind game with me when that happened, too. I suspect he was playing fun with my debilitating paranoia about everybody criticizing me or poking fun of me. A real tough New Yorker squint I can laugh about now.
Guru – I have been reading about the ‘evil eye’ that’s no fun. Mostly I do not tend towards the paranoid at all so usually that’s water off a duck’s back to me. But as I get more ‘sensitive’ or maybe more ‘paranoid’ or some would say as my defenses are lowered I find myself more affected by stuff like that. I really don’t get a friendly feeling from Barry but then again a lot of people would say I have it coming……………
> had an awful dream last night.
> went into some kind of underground tunnel, full of sand and dust, when all of a sudden a man appeared out of the shadows and immediately overpowered me and pinned me down on the floor.
> he was filthy with his naked upper body covered with sand and dust, and I felt terrified.
> I yelled at the top of my lungs for help but knew at the same time noone would hear me and even if they did they would not be in time to save me.
> that was pure horror.
> then while the man pinned me on the floor with his weight, I felt how he had a nife in his right hand and slowly stabbed it into my belly under my left ribs.
> then I knew for sure I was about to die, and all that came up in that brief moment was a silent but intense ‘goodbye’, to everyone I cared about , as a last reaching out for connection..
> I woke up breathing fast in short gasps.
> can only speculate what this was about, the feeling being fear of dying, acutely.
>
> another dream later on that same night was luckily more pleasant, about a scruffy bearded guy not at all my type, but hey, in this dream we started kissing and haha, it was great anyway..
>
> M
Margaret,
What a terrible dream! Good that the second one was pleasant.
I had a dream too, that I only vaguely remember. It was a standard dream I have
about pets overpopulating. It can be guinea pigs, turtles, fish, dogs etc. It is always
one type of pet per dream and what happens is they multiply to a shocking degree.
As a child I had pets, guinea pigs, for example,
and they did reproduce, but we then separated the males and females.
The dream could be because I was left alone with the care of pets and didn’t always
do a top notch job, unlike typically what happens when the parent takes over.
Yet that doesn’t explain why I would regularly have this type dream.
Phil
This ‘anonymous’ thing bothers me and I wonder as I say if any of the ‘computer savvy’ people here have any kind of explanation as to why the gravatar for ANY ‘anonymous’ is the same (well I suppose that makes sense) but then why is mine the same as that. Could be totally ‘harmless’ I suppose just so happens (by accident?) that mine is the same as ‘anonymous’ but why would I be ‘picked’ out like that. I have always wanted to be ‘special’ but not in that way lol. Guru – I consider you ‘computer savvy’ do you have any thoughts about it?. Jack is also savvy but we have already had a dose of some of his speculations about it it involved Crystal and me shuttling back and forth to Arkansas to run some kind of scam with no clear purpose as far as anyone including me could tell lol. So that we can ignore probably……………leave it in the files of Inspector Clouseau
The people ‘running the show’ could of course explain it………………but does this come under the heading of ‘what does it mean to you – me in this case. Valid enough I suppose but a bit of ‘reality’ would be nice. That was always my biggest gripe about the PI when something really really needs an ‘explanation’ all you are likely to get is ”what does it mean to you” That’s a pretty cute and convenient way to run things I could see myself running some organization and if ever there was a complaint or a problem with say either a customer or a worker I would swivel around on my chair in the corner office fix them with a stare (Guru) and just say “what does it mean to you”………………….problem solved………………next………….
just testing the gravatar with a made up nonsense name here…………..see what happens?
OK so it’s the same for EITHER ‘anonymous’ or a made up name or ME………………Guru can you please apply your brains to this. You have solved a few problems for me before. I will leave this ‘anonymous’ but I imagine that will also be the same gravatar
Patrick,
To me it’s likely that all this is random stuff having no significance.
Maybe it’s just that you would like it to mean something; that someone is bothering to pay special attention to you.
If someone anonymous shows up and comments on you, that’s understandable given all the space and commotion associated with some of the things you’ve said.
Phil
That’s all kind of interesting Phil, but again I feel I am kind of looking for some ‘reality’ here. I presume Gretchen or Barry could put it to rest but so far they don’t. I mean it IS a bit bothersome to me……………….every time there is an ‘anonymous’ it sort of looks like me if anyone is paying attention but IT IS NOT ME!!. So what gives? Call me paranoid or wanting to be special or whatever you like but what about the REALITY of the situation. Like any ‘conspiracy theory’ it will go away with a good explanation………………..so far I have not seen any and especially none from the people who would or should know.
Maybe you don’t really know the purpose of the blog, let alone the purpose of the therapy, seemingly.
Why is it that you alone come accross as being the only authority on REALITY. I certainly don’t see it. My take is that your “reality” is nothing more than your own old feeling.
Let Barry and Gretchen run this shows … it’s way more theirs than it it’s yours.
Jack
So it’s sort of like a ‘small business’ then……………I guess I understand I know it has gotten pretty ‘small’ and none better than yourself to enforce ‘smallness’ or ‘fanatacism’…………………..I know you are big ‘fan’ aren’t you getting a bit old for this……….being a ‘fan’ I mean…………..never ‘grew up’ I suppose………….”Oh Art you sure are my hero” as someone said to me who saw that “What a c…s…er!
Patrick,
I have a WordPress account and can choose a gravitar, but I don’t care about that. Why don’t you choose a different gravitar if that is bothering you? I’m glad that we mostly know who is commenting here whether by name or consistent pseudonym. I don’t think anonymous comments are worth much.
Phil
Phil – well maybe that’s all it is then? I am not aware of having ever chosen a gravatar so maybe mine then just goes to some kind of default setting. Probably then a ‘conspiracy’ with nothing behind it. I will drop it now.
I say I’d drop it but looking into it a bit more I notice when I first went on the blog I had a different one (gravatar) than I have now. Also just to take 3 of the more ‘active’ members Margaret, Larry and Tom V all STILL have the same one as then. I am talking early 2012 (now time flies!) So for some reason mine has been changed or shall we say ‘down graded’ to the same as ‘anonymous’.I am sure some idiot and I know which one will tell me exactly HOW I SHOULD be thinking and feeling and talking about this this from the same freak who endlessly goes on about ‘all feelings are valid’ or some such pretense as that…………..anyway no need to take this so seriously think of it maybe like a parlor game……….but I WAS wondering if maybe Barry isn’t playing some kind of Talmudic game on me. Talmudic games are a bit scary to me – see what they say about Jesus – but again he is the only one here who could clear that up. But will he?
I just got a ‘flash’ maybe of why Michael Holden ‘lost his mind’…………..maybe it all got a bit too ‘Talmudic’ for him…………
Quote: “talking about this this from the same freak who endlessly goes on about ‘all feelings are valid’ or some such pretense as that” Why are feelings so sort of PRETENSE?????? From you I can understand that , that is your REALIT … but not I feel others on this blog. So here we go again … laying down the laws of “REALITY” Jack
Do I really have to ‘explain’ this…………I guess I do………my point is it is a PRETENSE on your part to constantly ‘theorize’ along the lines of “all feelings are valid” and THEN in practice to constantly tell me how to feel, think, speak,and how I SHOULD be doing, saying expressing etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum forever and ever AMEN!!
Here we go again … you making accusations … because you don’t read thoroughly. There’s no way I would wish to help you with your failed therapy (your own admission). It’s purely my feeling that ALL feelings are valid. For your catholic ears … they are god given … ALL feelings. No exception. It’s the expression of those feeling that is the act-out or otherwise.
Go figure .. if you are able.
Jack
So nice to see you wake up ‘happy and gay’………what a way to start to day talk shit to me and it only get’s worse as the day goes on. You are losing it dude…………….
You really leave yourself so vunerable to your own angers; that I suspect have little or nothing to do with me. I gather you dish it out to others as well. Were you forced out of Sally’s back
house also???????
Other than this blog, what else do you do for fun??????
Jack
> Phil,
> maybe it represents that hard situation of trying to cope and keep control of a situation that actually is too much, too overwhelming to completely grasp and keep under control.
> needing help, not being all alone to have to take responsibility, it seems to represent such a deep and scary reality of being all on your own o
> in a difficult world, and that already as a young kid..
> seems like one of those dreams in which we struggle desperately to stay in control, mostly in vain.
>
> for me it is often translated into driving a car and then the brakes do not function well or the steering and the situation threatens to get out of hand.
>
> or being on a roof, slope or edge of an abyss and not knowing how to get into safety.
>
> these dreams for me seem to gradually shift to getting a bit more control over the situation, with excepption of this dream of being actually stabbed.
> then again it might be a way of looking that most terrifying feeling of all more straightly in the face, bit by tiny bit..
>
> that dream seems to be trying to get something connected for you, hopefully once upon waking up out of it, or writing about it you can pinpoint the feeling it represents.
>
> I must say it stands out in its originality, but of course the original situation was probably painful.
> what happened with the litters that were ‘too many’?
> who took care of them?
> M
Margaret,
I remember getting guinea pigs as a very exciting episode in my childhood. I was maybe 4 or 5, and they weren’t all mine or my responsibility, but that is what happened over time. Having them seemed to bring the whole family together, except around this time my mother was very ill and would be going to the hospital and then leaving our home for good. I don’t remember her having anything to do with these pets which we kept in the basement. or the exact sequence of events.
My father might have gotten them as a distraction from all this pain and sadness going on.
The guinea pigs were a lot of fun; very colorful, picking names for them, and they seemed to have different personalities. One might have been pregnant to begin with when we got it. We had as many as 8 or 10 of them at one time. I remember giving a guinea pig to two of my friends as a birthday gift, which was maybe not entirely appropriate.
The guinea pigs were of interest and fun to have for many months but after a while, not so much. They eat, pee, and poop a lot, and are a lot of work to take care of.
We had a lot of pets, but my dream probably has to do with what I’ve described here.
Phil
Guru, Money man, I have a question for you. Are the stock markets going to keep going down or
level off at this point? What’s your opinion on this?
Phil
Phil: How did you get the impression that I am a money man? Just because I find it an interesting topic which my mother was heavily involved in doesn’t mean I am rich. If I was rich, why would I complain about the millions in losses I had to completely write off during my pre-school years? In fact, sometimes I wonder if that inhibits my ability to be rich since I wouldn’t be able to complain to anyone anymore to garner sympathy or empathy. If I was worth, say, $5 million, people would feel less sorry for me explaining I lost $100 million early on than from the standpoint of my being middle-class or lower.
Having said all this, the market is facing a lot more headwinds than previously. Interest rates are going up and the era of Federal Reserve easy money is over. I hate to make predictions because the market can stay irrational much longer than most people can stay solvent.
Currently, I would look for overvalued companies as strong short selling candidates (or maybe put options if your account allows them). An additional plus would be to try avoiding companies with a large short interest to lower the risk of getting slaughtered by an unexpected short squeeze (violent upward price spiral).
Guru, I’m looking to invest some money from a pension fund rollover into mutual funds. I don’t have the patience or persistence to invest in and watch individual stocks.
I didn’t think you were rich but you have given what seems like some well informed
views in response to my question.
Thanks,
Phil
In that case look for bearish funds, contrarian funds, deep value/defensive stock funds (good luck with that one), or maybe even a dividend re-investment plan setup with a company that has a long history of paying steady dividends.
You’ll want to become more and more conservative as you get older and your prospective future earning power diminishes.
“Money’s only something you need in case you don’t die tomorrow.”
Martin Sheen aka “Carl Fox” Wall Street (1986)
OK, thanks, I’m going to do some investigating for any funds of that type,
since I do plan to be around when I retire and will be needing money.
Phil
Quote: Guru: “How did you get the impression that I am a money man? ” Simple … your gravatar is a big giveaway.
Jack
Patrick: I know nothing at all about how WordPress applies its standard gravatar designs. I can make a custom gravatar, but that’s all I know on the matter.
All you can do is give “Anonymous” a very mean squint like Barry gave me, That should rattle his bones a bit, I would think.
> vicky,
> what you said about your frind and his sudden and unexpected death is still on my mind.
> it is indeed awful to be jerked away out of life like that, and a reminder of how limited our time can be..
> sorry for you.
> M
Subscribing, listening to all the words of wisdom here.
Jack-Ass – I have NEVER lived in Sally’s back house and whatever you get through ‘rumor mill’ well that’s all it is ‘rumors’ You disgusting gossiping FAG. I notice you do this with Guru also ‘you heard it through the grape vine blah blah blah’. Some freaking primal rumor mill which is worth about as much as all the rest of it is worth…………..pretty much nothing. Huddle with your little namby pamby ‘friends’ and \gossip like a nosy neighbor. You know next to nothing about me and go on keep it up…………..let’s see how your neighbors feel about a proven pervert in their midst. Leave me the fuck alone FAG you have nothing to teach me or tell me or anything of any value. Keep sucking Janov’s dick………………..that’s about all you have ever ‘achieved’
LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE FAG DO YOU HEAR ME
No!!!!!! I get too much fun poking you. Why should I deprive myself all the fun I get … and some with Guru.
Jack
To maybe show I do have other more interesting things on my mind that this worthless parasitic FAG it seems it is not only vaccines are a lie, and the ‘holocaust’ is mostly a lie certainly nothing like it has been portrayed here is one about the moon landing. Makes one think or certainly makes me think………………it seems there are SO MANY lies at the base of our ‘culture’ what’s Janov’s ‘lie’ really in the big scheme of things. I don’t mean it’s a lie about what a profound effect childhood trauma has but his ‘means and methods’ have been proven as such a failure and never an honest doubt is expressed or ‘allowed’ at least among his ‘cock sucker followers’ like Jack-ass. What a ruined ‘movement’ and I DON”T consider myself a ‘failure’ except I ;’failed’ at therapy the way he proposed which now actually I see as a healthy sigh. To ‘succeed’ in his terms is truly to fail as witnessed by the parasitic FAG in question. Anyway think about something \else here official primal world is as dead as a door nail
Did the Apollo mission actually go to the moon and return. I have no idea.
Does Patrick ever say anything of any relevance to anyone else other than himself …. I have no idea
Did World War II ever take place … I have no idea … but I did experience bombs being dropped on Manchester and went with my granny two days later and saw all the destroyed buildings. Maybe it was a lie put out by Winston Churchill so he could become Prime minister.
Who knows and should I be so concerned about who is lying and who is telling the truth. Who’s Truth???? It doesn’t concern me unduly, since in the end I am concerned with is; how I feel … period end. All else takes second place.
But then I am sure Patrick will keep up the bluster till he finally expires.
Jack
Dude it looks to me you have ALREADY ‘expired’ I see no signs of life in your ‘thoughts’ let alone your FEELINGS…………..said in a high pitched Winston Churchill like wheeze………….FAG-MAN
There seems to be some deeply entrenched anger emanating right out of you body and soul. I have no idea from whence it came, but you have a chance to figure it out. the alternative is to keep up the hate and anger. I see that as very sad. Unless you are really that much of a masochist
Jack
I like this guy Dave McGowan he lived in Torrance but died of cancer this year. This is the same ground but a bit more humorous. It’s interesting the ‘moon landing’ and ‘primal therapy’ was invented/discovered around the same time. What this guy says about the ‘moon landing’ could with a bit of tweaking be applied to primal. The same see no evil hear no evil, the same we were doing stuff THEN that totally eludes us NOW. Janov of course was a Russian Jew and the Talmudist mind set seems just fine with lies and fairy stories…………especially if it ‘pays’ and the Gentiles are doing most of the paying. Certainly the roughly 20 suicides ‘paid’ (whatever cover story Gretchen tries to come up with) and Michael Holden ‘paid’ with his sanity. But lalala …………….see no evil, hear no evil pay NO attention to the man behind the curtain. And if you have doubts just look at Jack as a ‘success’ story. That’s what ‘success’ is…………..a FAG who came to therapy gay and ended up ‘gayer’ but hey that’s ‘success’
BTW I have a SMALL piece of personal experience in regards to this. We were at a moving conference in Orlando FL and decided to to to Cape Canaveral/Kennedy to see it. The first thing I remember saying to my friend with me was this place has a weird ’50 retro kind of feeling. The rockets and everything already looked ‘dated’ like I dunno those American drive through places Arby’s or Norms or something or earlier stuff than that
But what I find more interesting now is they showed us the ‘lunar landing craft’ (the thing that dropped down onto the moon and whizzed back up again to dock with something that was moving we’re told at 4,000 miles per hour. Anyway and I distinctly remember this saying to my friend this thing looks kind of like some homeless guy’s tent. A real flimsy looking thing made of plastic, and held together with ropes is kind of how I remember it. This is one of those ‘thoughts’ I quickly dismissed I mean it HAD to have done what we were told. Shows the value I suppose of ‘common sense’ or trusting one first impressions. Now in the light of what this guy is saying (and not only him) well those instincts were correct.
I wonder if FAG-MAN or BAG-MAN will have a ‘comment’ on this, what ‘fault’ will he find it it. YOU BETTER NOT FAG!
FAG-MAN is someone who could never in any sense make it in the world of men. His father was very disappointing in him that he could or would not play soccer or rugby. So here he is over 70 years later STILL taking it out on his father (me)……………see how primal therapy REALLY REALLY DOES WORK! Take Janov’s word for that and if really in doubt ask FAG-MAN!
Fag man here: The really sad bit about your comment is that you never made in the world of women … unless you paid dearly for it. From my experience when ostensibly were in business together. Even once propositioning a woman police officer. We’re none us perfect, contrary to what is seems you think of yourself.
Jack the bag fag man.
First, I would appreciate an end to the name calling. I think we are all smart enough to say our thoughts without morphing into ” Archie Bunker speak”. Words like faggot have caused a great deal of pain and I am quite sure we can find a way to express our thoughts or feelings without sinking to these levels. It serves no one. There is a great quote by EB White who said ” prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without getting the facts” . We can all think about that a bit. Patrick, I think you may be getting carried away with your conspiracy theories. Barry and I have no ” Zionist ” plot to screw with your Gravatar . Why would we do that? I barely know what a gravitar is no less know how to switch them around. So there is no Talmudic game going on and I have no clue what that is anyway. If I have a problem with someone or something I say it as does Barry. I just honestly feel this kind of thinking takes on a life of its own and continues to grow to include pretty much everything in its sight. It’s Godzilla really. Prejudice is always born of fear and ignorance in my view. That being said you are entitled to your own opinions and even your own fanaticism. You can believe that everyone is lying to you, that’s up to you. I just feel it’s all pretty toxic and unhealthy. If I’m correct I’m sure you will deal with it in your own time. The whole thing seems pretty miserable. In the meantime let’s all of us work on being civil . Gretchen
Gretchen – you make some fair points there. But I want to say this………..when I introduced Kollerstrom a few months ago and you basically shut it down and talked about censorship etc………well I pulled my horns in. I did read his book and many more besides and I have to tell you I conclude after a lot of reading and thought the holocaust is way exaggerated. Basically nobody was gassed, there were no plans or orders from the Germans for any such thing. People including Jews died of course it was a horrible and disgusting war and we did as much if not more horrible things than the Germans.
What does it matter? Well maybe I shouldn’t be on here I did talk to it about many people I know so it’s a fair question why do I have to here. So I didn’t and kept my mouth shut. Mostly that is fine with me it’s not a great effort or anything to do that. I don’t believe in ‘forcing’ myself to do or not do anything. But well then something builds up in me like I want to talk about but well I am not allowed or it is not acceptable. This goes on for a while I read more and more and get into other stuff. 9/11 7/7 etc and even now the moon. You and probably most people would consider that cuckoo and crazy well fine but it’s like it’s on my mind to talk about it. I don’t feel or think I am going crazy but well it can get lonely…………
Than Jack is always a hurdle I feel he lies in wait for me to jump on me, I don’t need to repeat here what he does. Relentless criticism,and negativity, I put up with it, I ignore it and yes sometimes I react back maybe that could be seen as reacting badly Maybe so but it is not in my nature to be persecuted and mocked by someone I have little respect for. I have seen his antics over the years and you might not like this but as I said I see him as Janov’s cocksucker. He has nothing to say except enforce his primal dogma and stupidities…………….just a tiresome crapped out and clapped out drug swilling idiot but he still seems to live to just pounce on me. I would smash him in the mouth if he did this to my face but that’s him all over, nothing is to my face he is a keyboard warrior a coward and a snake in the grass. I helped him a lot over the years, when he was facing deportation paid his legal fees etc, He comes with more sob stories I give him large amounts of money. Still he seems to resent being helped after all Mr Know IT All should be the man in charge. Whatever as I have said for 4 years now I am ok with him IF he leaves me alone. I have tried and tried different things nothing works with this Devil. He is a true Devil a hateful disrespectful perverted asswipe here I go again.
I am so sick of the pretensions of primal especially as exemplified by Jack just such a hopeless useless ‘religion’. I do still believe in it and I feel even live it but it is far from ‘official primal’. I have found my way I do feel that and here would be a nice place to just write as I feel it but there is this asswipe always waiting, always plotting always trying to put me down. Today when he gets into my personal life I can see then the gossip the lack of a life himself it seems to piss all over me. I am sick to death of this guy and I do feel also you are negligent in not just telling him to knock it off. Of course he is on your side or so it seems if I were you I would not want a scourge like that on my side. Enough.
Women. big feeling. caht express it in words. need them. dead mommy. not sure why i should say it on the blog. cant go to group and say it. dont exactly know what to do with it. death of my pets this year and last and facing my own death could be triggering it. something else too probably. loss of sex in my life and near-total death of my marriage. anyway, feels atmospheric all-suirrounding, cosmic. cant get iut out of my head. see a woman and it takes over me. loss and unattainability. so much anger on another plane too.
big wind a blowin and moon getting full. nothing to watch on tv. been sick all week but finally getting better. went crazy on lady z this week after she dropped me off at work and then called me asking if i could get 5000 more credit for an urgent dental procedure. i was going to hold in the insanity of this situation since it is already hard enough to pay for the existing bills, and i was waiting 3 extra hours at work while the procedure was going on and then she finally came to pick me up, but got turned around in the dark and got lost and it took a long time for her to get to me. So i was getting angrier by the second and screamed at her on the phone and berated her after she finally picked me up.. If she would not have reacted, the screaming could have ended, but she always feels she has to defend herself. I wanted to be mindful of her medical condition, but her getting lost was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I later said sorry, but i don’t feel much about it. I am such shit shit shit. monumentally.
I went to be taken care of by my violent uncle when i was ripped away from my mom at age 10 months. I thought that was the reason that i think a lot of people (mostly men) are pieces of shit. Now i see somewhat clearer how 10 months at military school made me feel this way. Well the uncle’s anger and uncaring certainly made me feel this way too. I don’t know if it really matters, it sucks to be me. I am not the cup half-full guy who i worked with today, as he regaled me with the many happy memories of his life writing for movies and how he seems to care about the women in his life, and how alive he is.He joked about us being the same age as Glen Frey and David Bowie, unfortunately deceased. My looming death is just salt on an open wound, and it doesnt matter if it is pink Himalayan salt either. It fucking hurts.
I like the way Otto is just himself and carries on doesn’t let some bullshit cat fight between the likes of me and Jack affect him or knock him off course. Even if he already probably is off course for all his own reasons at least he does not allow himself to be put MORE off course.(Of course he is off course he is a primal patient – now there is something unfortunately that almost universally DOES put people even more ‘off course’ than they started with which would have been off course of course. Sorry for the crazy pretend James Joyce punning and word play. James Joyce an Irish writer was the one who christened Sigmund Freud Sickmind Fraud.And there is a lot of fraud in psychology a kind of bastard science that depends VERY much on the character of the people doing it or of the founder of various schools. Janov to me is a fraud in the real sense, he got an inkling of a good idea and fucked \it up pretty much totally. He borrowed or took something already happening in the culture, branded it his way made it “His” and lost everything in the process. Or his patients pretty much lost everything. Remember what Joop said he was roundly condemned of course but he spoke a lot of truth. More truth than me I try to keep it all together, make everyone happy and balance it all out Joop just quickly calls it as he sees it and he hits the mark mostly.He felt he was ostracized from therapy because of his so called antisemitism the most crazy bullshit charge that is misused all the time and I feel Gretchen you did it in your own way to me
Gretchen I was amazed the way you tried to smash down on Kollerstrom I have read 4 books of his now and I love and am amazed in different ways by all of them. And he is not a one trick pony only ONE of them is about the holocaust he is not an anti-Semite at all to use a silly phrase anyway. But reading this guy made my whole Winter his intelligence his ‘beautiful mind’ and you can’t wait to call him a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’ So you talk above about insults you tossed them around yourself most carelessly and at JUST the wrong time and the wrong target. I don’t hold it against you, you are busy you don’t know hardly anything on some of these subjects you don’t have the time……………I understand it’s not a problem but you really should not go shooting your mouth off at the wrong times and places. People might find it rich of me to say something like ok fair point but even though I ‘understand’ I take it as a bad sign that you did that. A sign that you are just another one another of the deluded AND deluding millions or even billions now. Our world I am finding out is built on lies some huge lies and the untouchableness of the Jewish race is one of the biggest. We are drowning in global warming but hey all we should be concerned about is saving the asses of some Jews who are out of control in the Middle East. Out of control as in wrecking native people culture and deliberatly de-populating the region, send them off and stuff them down the Germans throat (again) to make an even “Greater” Israel. The one we have is already too big but they want to make it bigger and they will. Never happy always want to take more even if it belongs to someone else. One day it will be from the Nile to the Euphrates a monster state a monster war state and a slave state…………..our future that if we even have one.That’s what’s important…………..that’s such a tragedy and Gretchen you have shown me you are no different. Just another one another either brain washed one or one doing the brain washing. Same difference and now it’s like I am channeling Otto his despair is personal and real mine is more impersonal but still very much real. Primal as practiced and promulgated by Janov is a what was hoped to be a return trip a one way ticket.to nowhere. Of course it’s difficult as the whole world is on a trip to nowhere but this was supposed to be ‘different’ It is not and often it is even worse and I still hold out the hope it COULD be different, that’s what haunts me and even why I am on here……………
Quote: “Janov to me is a fraud in the real sense, he got an inkling of a good idea and fucked \it up pretty much totally. He borrowed or took something already happening in the culture, branded it his way made it….. ” The saddest part of this latest comment of yours is that you yourself was drawn into it after reading his book and then paid the money required, and came accross the pond. So much were you convinnced that there was something in it.
My feeling was you “missed the train” when you questioned your three week therapist with “what’s the point” Had you just let it happen … for him to guide you into it, you might have found the “holy grail”. (My, and only my feeling). Instead of which as I read and know you, you now are all hell bent on proving that it was a fraud. YET!!! still pay lip service to doing it your own way and remain on a blog almost totally devoted to people (like Otto) that just wishes to vent his feelings. Whereas I see you venting your notions (ideas).
What I am doing here is”- I cannot let someone like you dismiss Janov and his therapy or theory just be thrown around on this sort of very public blog. I don’t like it and re-act to it. That simple.
I can agree with many of your other points of where as a speciese we humans are heading. Not sure I can do much about it and it sure is sad. Had the FULL implications of Janov’s discovery and yes! it was a major discovery, culminating from all those before him, beginning with Freud. Your now denial of that is because as I see it, you did’nt get what you hoped you might get; after reading the book.
Even after all your pleading with the Institute to come to the rescue: when Gretchen did so, you accept (tentaively “fair points”) then rattle off again in some vague attempt to show just how smart and well read you are. Primally speaking I feel:- You ain’t … that smart. I’ll grant your final sentence on this comment:- “I still hold out the hope it COULD be different, that’s what haunts me and even why I am on here……………”
Jack
You pick and take out of context and misrepresent one reaction I mention I had about in group being ‘told to ask for what you want’ Then you run with this and try to prove some point. You are truly a waste of time and as to any possible solutions to your problems/dilemma see what I said to Margaret about all the drugs. This for sure applies to you. You are a dirty lying scheming leech keep the fuck away from me
On these matters…………….this is cool
Patrick, First of all… You imply you had something to say and were immediately censored. That is not the case at all. If you go back to your posts you will see you said your views multiple times before I said enough. I explained to you privately,through email, that I felt it was toxic to go on and on about these issues. I did not tell you to leave the blog I simply asked that you stop the rhetoric as you had made your point. It is true that I said Kollerstrom was a fool but I am entitled to my view. I also should point out that I said these conspiracies would grow to include endless theories and they have. In this way ( and you won’t like this) you become what you accuse Jack of. It begins to feel fanatical. I told you I would say straight out what I thought and yes I do think it’s a bit cuckoo but suit yourself. Also Patrick if you have so little respect for Jacks views then who cares what he has to say to you? Why struggle to get him to respond differently to you? Don’t engage with him if it is that upsetting to you . As I told you before I don’t think this is really about beliefs at all.,I think what you need to look at is the feeling you described above , the feeling that you have something unacceptable to say and your compulsion to say it. Let me be honest … What I wonder most when you are going on about the Holocaust for instance is where is the empathy? You know very well there are people here who have family members lost in the Holocaust . The other question I wonder about is why you do this to yourself? You have to know the response you will get. What is that? I believe you continue setting up this situation knowing the outcome. Lastly do you really think it’s a coincidence that the people you feel most upset with here are Jewish. Don’t you think there is a kind of transparency to lashing out in this way? Bottom line I would put the theories aside and spend more time investigating what’s going on inside. Again just my opinion. I’m not against you and I’m not interested in taking sides but once in a while I think it’s important that I say my view . Gretchen
That’s fine Gretchen and I like that you say your ‘view’ it makes a nice change from just being a ‘therapist’. Still and all I have several problems with what you say here. In no particular order about Jack………….you and others here may not see it this way but to me the central and important point is pretty much ALWAYS he STARTS it!! Please don’t forget that. In ‘war’ and sadly enough this is what this has become with him the one who STARTS the war is held responsible. He may say I started it 4 years ago ok he has a point there I did I suppose but now he starts things all the time. Just about anything I say I KNOW he will be pissing on me…………….that’s a bad feeling I am only on here to express whatever is on my mind and to have him do this…………well you know and most others here if they are paying any kind of close attention must know this. I pretty much let anything go he says of his own accord he does not he pounces like a rat on me. Sometimes for months I ignore him I remember when I was in Ireland last year really I ignored him. I do understand it is provocative to him for me to talk about primal in anything but glowing tones but well with all that has gone on with me and the PI itself I DO NOT FEEL THAT WAY ABOUT IT. He should for all his ‘theorizing’ understand and accept that basic fact. Enough about this it will only unleash more torrents of abuse etc. He loves the attention he has said so numerous times and he ENJOYS fucking with me. What a pervert!
I don’t like or accept this thing about how I had said my ‘views’ numerous times. I see what you are doing me painting me into the ‘anti-Semite’ corner. An old trick and one I am not impressed with or accept. I said numerous time I did not like what Israel was doing in the world and was agnostic about the holocaust. I saw it being used for bad purposes but like anyone else I ‘believed’ in it as much as you do without really going into it. Kollerstrom was the first time I FELT like going into it, here was an urbane cool and educated Englishman and I thought well let me check this out. And I have and thoroughly and not only him you would not believe how much I have been reading these last 4 months and I will say it again the holocaust did not happen! Of course we could debate for a long time what that means but to shorten it there was no ‘program’ of the Germans to do that, no budget no plans no documents no nothing. The Germans documented everything down to the last brick they might need to build a ‘gas chamber’ nothing. No ‘gassing’ was done gas was used for de-lousing actually used to SAVE lives. Typhus was rampart in the camps and the Germans were desperate to keep prisoners alive they also used them as slave labor more and more as the war went on so they wanted to keep them alive. 6 million is a completely ‘made up’ number based on propaganda all the way from the 1890’s about 6 million Jews being endangered in Russia. Later this number was used by Soviet propaganda to well just reinforce an ‘old story’.The Russians announced 4 million died in Auschwitz just a made up number for years there was a plaque there saying that, even ‘officially’ not it is changed to 1 million and now a lot of ‘holocaust believers/historians have moved it down to 600,000. But no matter it is somehow overall STILL 6 million. So that’s as I say simply ‘made up’
You go on about ’empathy’ I have asked you before and you never even ATTEMPTED to answer “would you not feel happy and grateful to find out (if you did) that 6 million of your people did NOT die and certainly not from some deliberate extermination program” This is a serious question Gretchen I am not being cute here. I told you I had a ‘flash’ if say I believed all my life that say 6 million Irish people were gassed and one day I found it it was a horror nightmare and NOT true I pictured myself crying with happiness and relief. I really am interested in your answer to this an answer you have not attempted so far. I am saying this also not to put you in a corner it is a genuine question can you please try to answer.And if you could answer it it would help why it seems NO Jews have that reaction they seem to totally NEED TO BELIEVE it happened. Though I suspect they are not fools and it actually serves them very well. Like it even serves you here if ever you are questioned you can always throw out that old story……….
You say ” Lastly do you really think it’s a coincidence that the people you feel most upset with here are Jewish” Are you serious? Is Jack Jewish? Doesn’t he upset me the most so where is your theory then? This I find disgusting because you ARE playing the anti-Semitic card you ARE and shame on you! Tom V is Jewish am I especially ‘upset’ with him not at all though I don’t care so much for what he talks about I find it weird and strange mostly but Jewish has nothing to do with it.
In the case of you and Barry and Janov…………there is something there. Because I feel you have all totally messed up primal and your messing up HAS something to do with being Jewish. Exclusive, narrow, clannish this does NOT work well in the realm of ideas one reason primal has failed and is about to close up shop. Should have closed up shop years ago.Hopefully maybe to be ‘reborn’ in a better way with better influences. I wish I was the person to do it but of course I am not. This does NOT stop me from seeing the ruin of a good idea the potential wasted of a good idea. I just read a book “The Controversy of Zion” which puts this in perspective. There is something in that kind of narrow band of Judaism that it seems can ONLY fuck things up. Not all but in the narrow Talmudic mind set yes. And so it has happened Janov has completely failed on almost any perspective
I could pick up on more but the overall feeling I have here Gretchen is you are pushing me into the anti-Semitic corner………………….you can’t do that to me well you can but at least I see through what you are doing. There is a much bigger picture here not that I expect you to see it sadly, smallness here is the name of the game and I know it is meant to be irrelevant that Israel is chasing millions of the native people out of that area and into Europe to screw things up there but it is not irrelevant to me. And I am sure to future generations and all the wars and catastrophes to come…………
Lastly you say ” You know very well there are people here who have family members lost in the Holocaust” Well I don’t know that the only one maybe is Tom V he said something about how his whole family died in the holocaust. I don’t know what he means by that actually if he cared to write I would be interested but I wish it would be specific when where how why etc. Millions of Irish DID die in the Famine we are still laboring under the trauma of that but do the Irish have ‘famine laws’ against ‘famine deniers’ do they jail historians who might have a different view it feels even absurd to talk like that about ‘famine belief’ or ‘famine denial’ but that’s the game the Jews are playing and right there where laws are passed against thinking itself is a very bad sign. BTW Margaret I just read Belgium had to pay almost 200 million euros to some Jewish fund because they even though they were on the side against the Germans it was decided they did not do ENOUGH to prevent the holocaust. How cute is that, who decided that well it’s irrelevant as to the truth just more money for Israel to drive more refugees into Belgium and cause more problems.
to lighten things up a bit…………..Gretchen I’m looking through you……….
To further lighten things up … You would have to be able to see first
ROTFLMAO!
I have a question for Gretchen:
A while back, Margaret came up with an interesting scenario where I may not feel great about someone being a huge race car or stunt car enthusiast here on the blog. Would you be willing to tamp down on someone who always showed gratuitous amounts of NASCAR racing or stunt driving? Or how about a rabid muscle car enthusiast in light of what happened to my mother and what has happened to countless others? Would you protect me in this instance?
Or a related matter, what about the idea of gun hobbyists showing up on the blog, posting lots of videos of gun shows and how to best do target shooting or hunting when there may be a shooting victim’s family member reading the blog?
> UG,
> it is ironic you come to Patricks defense sort of with this example.
> If I remember well it was him who made a joke about car accidents on a very inappropiate moment when you were vulnerable, and I even think it is very well possible his intention was to hurt you, consciously or not.
> your comparison does not feel really spot on as you lift out one aspect of what Gretchen said and ignore all the rest of what is going on, the spirit of the matter, the toxic part so to say.
> me reacting on the comment in defense of your feelings at the time is the best example all kinds of senseless cruelty tend to be reacted upon here.
>
> and well, I am not one of the people against all kinds of censorship and would feel opposed to repeted ‘ads’ for guns and violence here, as I also took a stand several times against an overload of pointless and repeated loads of agression and crap here.
> this is really getting pretty crazy, and indeed does not help anyone.
> boundaries and temporary bans like on the other similar blog would be fine with me, as a form of hygiene sort of.
> which is not a ban of ideas or opinions or feelings, just a manner of social minimum levels needing to be respected, as a part of real life lesson and maybe iven therapy.
> not all is ok, not in every way.
> abuse is also not accepted in groups, specially not the personal kind of wildly bashing around with no therapeutic goal whatsoever.
> and boy, I get sick of that victim role Patrick, what Jack says to you is mild irony compared to your toxic waste and delusional rants.
> M
Guru – I know you did not ask me but I think it’s a good question. To me people should be allowed and even encouraged to talk about WHATEVER they are interested in and since we all have faith in the ‘primal process’ it should all work out. Instead we mostly have ‘censorship’ or here maybe ‘inner censorship’ as in ‘you should be talking about this not that, you should be saying it this way not that’………..most of ‘enforced’ by one self appointed Sondercommando………..
Margaret:
I mentioned you by name because I wanted to give you proper credit for germinating the idea to begin with regardless of context. People sometimes use ideas I originally came up with for their own benefit later on without giving me credit and it annoys me sometimes. I honestly don’t remember the exact circumstances in which you brought the idea up because it was many months ago, and it would require some dedicated research to hash out exactly what happened.
This may surprise you, Margaret: I wasn’t typing out my post to defend Patrick. I am neutral to what is going on here, and I have no obligation to take the entirety of all the different points of Gretchen’s postings under consideration when only one slender aspect of it interested me in particular as a third party. Both Patrick and Jack have said things I didn’t like. You said Jack was a minor nuisance to most bloggers compared to Patrick, and I do acknowledge the apparent truth of this. With the exception of one spat I had with Patrick a long time ago, the opposite has been the truth in the sense that I have personally borne the brunt of the more emotionally stunted aspects of Jack’s behavior because I haven’t behaved the way he feels I should behave. I do agree with Patrick that Jack does fellate Janov an awful lot whereas my completely discontinuing reading Janov’s blog turned out to be a healthy decision for me.
Ironically, I have to go on an unusually long road trip for business today so I may not be able to respond right away in case someone responds to me.
Finally, I am going to emphasize once more that Patrick and I are two different people. I don’t know much at all about what happened under the Third Reich, yet I give the standard stories of six million deaths and gas chambers horrors the benefit of the doubt and generally accept it as truth. I just don’t have time to figure it all out because no one is going to hold my hand or really be my advocate in any cohesive group fashion concerning the tens of millions of traffic fatalities out there. I am all I have. No one else will advocate for me; I have to do it myself without any governmental help no matter how neurotic that Janov may implicitly claim I am.
You say in this last comment:- “I am all I have. No one else will advocate for me; I have to do it myself without any governmental help no matter how neurotic that Janov may implicitly claim I am.
Reply” That sounds very sad. I gather you are in some difficulties, though you don’t say exactly what. You don’t have to if you wish not. I take it you are still of working age and from something you said some time ago, I believe you are into computer developing apps.
If so hope it works out well for you.
Jack
A little bit of fake ‘sensitivity’ now…………..the pull and drag to keep you from being board. You are not a friend to Guru as you are not to me. Can you ever quit your PR attempts I guess you can’t or don’t want to. Eeech Leech……..a quoting back leech not much going on in his own brain drowned with toxic drugs………
Margaret – are you having another of your ‘fictitious moments’ or ‘delusional memories’ maybe I should just be kind (I can be) and call it a ‘senior moment’ I have no idea what you are talking about and would challenge you to find it or if you can’t find it at say what you think you remember. Then we can ask Guru if he has any memory of that. After all of something so hurtful happened – which it didn’t’ he surely would remember. I believe and can even say I know you are being totally delusional about this. I have had 2 arguments with Guru here and I KNOW none of them did or even could involve what you are implying. Don’t forget to say you are sorry when you are proved wrong again.
Maybe more interesting is WHY you even try to make trouble like this? Do you know? Do you have any idea? I am interested in your answer.
I see you like Jack just kissing the ass of authority or what you think is authority. To me with all the lying they have lost their authority. Also like Jack my take on you is both of you are addled with the really toxic drugs you both take for a non-existent condition and of course like a holocaust ‘victim’ being told it never happened you resent that too. Both of you are narrow and touchy and intolerant. Here you go again with you ‘banning’ talk you have the floor for weeks on end do I try to ban you. If you talk about toxic look to the drugs you are taking and you might be getting closer to some real toxic things and something that affects you. My beliefs and especially based on they are on serious thought and reading should not be toxic to you at all. But of course you have borrowed the invalid Gretchen meme and we know what that is the old hoary ‘story’ of antisemitism
You miss the point totally about Jack and me…………….I admit I express myself in ways that I suppose I shouldn’t but it is always in reaction to his sniping. I do ignore him a lot of the time but this as most everything else you seem to either misunderstand the dynamics of what is going on or willfully do so. Your fictitious memories do not bode well for you. And your predictable weighing in on the side of what you think is authority does not bode well for you either. About time you started to think for yourself more and you even know in the political arena what I am talking about. At the time of the Charlie Hebdo event you mentioned the Mossad were running around Belgium even maybe where you lived. I am sure they were because I believe that was a ‘fake terror’ even they actually set up. Kollerstrom mentioned that the 4 Jews who ‘died’ in quotes were shipped back to Israel immediately for burial………………….which means nobody died. Just a thought and I believe it is correct. I know and here also we are not meant to question or wonder about this but for some reason I do…………….
Patrick:
While I am still here, there have been a fair number of instances where you said things I didn’t like (and now I am starting to remember a bit of what Margaret is referring to about auto collisions). You also made it a point to bring up 9/11 a lot more than most people aside from myself where it left me wondering if you were trying to goad me in some way.
These were minor nuisances to me enough to where I just didn’t want to waste time or energy hashing it all out on the blog in some excruciatingly tedious detail. It’s just not worth it for me.
As I said before, you haven’t gone after me nearly as much as Jack has in recent times even though it’s plain to see most everyone else is having more serious trouble with you compared to Jack.
Maybe it’s because I’m not Jewish and I couldn’t fathom living any resemblance of a homosexual lifestyle. I don’t hold it against others for being gay, though, it doesn’t bother me and I’ve had several casual gay friends. Two or three guys have made advances towards me in my life and, “NO! Just stop right there. Don’t bother.” was my natural reflex. Bisexual/lesbian females are welcome to approach the inner sanctum, however.
OK, that’s it. Gotta go now.
Just woke up turn on the News a politician, congressman from the Valley (Jewish) and he is saying we need to put the pressure on Iran because and get this “all the terror and failure we see in Syria is because they are supported by Iran” then you see pictures of true horror. This is a ‘respectable’ asshole and what he is saying is totally absurd and he is pushing and promoting to turn Iran into another Syria or iraq or Libya. MORE horror and terror (and let’s not forget de-population) for Israel’s neighbors more expansion of that State, the demented ‘dream’ of a “Greater Israel” seems to drive them on. And MORE ‘refugees’ for Europe let the Germans and the others too choke on their own ‘political correctness’ set the people in all European countries fighting each other (including Ireland with their ‘Christian’ souls and attitudes), then have ‘fake terror’ events in those countries supposedly done by Islamists but in reality prostitute governments directed by the like of Mossad, MI5 CIA etc and we should be good to go. A totally ruined Middle East and a pretty much ruined Europe but hey the big picture is working out a “Greater Israel” is being born. How cute is that little baby and don’t you feel for him he is just about to say his first words which probably would be ‘now it’s all mine’ except like Janov by making it all ‘His’ he lost it all or maybe more accurately his patients lost it all. Dark vision? I guess so but it’s how I see it this morning and this was from the first 0/30 of TV. I better ride my bike and get away from this if I can on TV at least the rest of the day will be much the same. I am probably exaggerating a bit about Janov but only a bit and I am trying to make a point……….but propaganda everywhere…………
Here is Kollerstrom’s talk about the Charlie Hebdo ‘event’ I found it fascinating and illuminating though I imagine at least here I might be alone in that. But hope springs eternal maybe someone will get something out of it. People I know and respect very much do
I have the desire to talk about myself, hopefully not in defense of myself, (that I will leave for others to decide). There have been many things people have said about me and most of it, in the context they said it was “MY’ truth. If some of this is a repeat of things I have already said, forgive me.
I have spent a life time as a sex addict. What I mean by addict is:- that it is a ‘pain killer’. It was not until I read “The Primal Scream” that the impact of this hit me. Until that moment I saw sex as a natural function of life and hence thought little about my insatiable desire to pursue it. After reading ‘The book’ I began a whole series of re-thinking and came to the conclusion that sex was a part (for us humans) of the “Love quotient”. One therapist did suggest I attend a 12 step program for my compulsion and did so for several years. In that time I met many others, of both sexes with the same addiction to varying degrees, which also gave me a lot of insights as to the full scope of this condition.
I feel (though I am prepared to consider that I might be in a great deal of denial) I saw the purpose and benefits of Primal therapy and the absolute simplicity of the message Janov conveyed in ‘that book’. If that, it is now seen as:- “I do agree with Patrick that Jack does fellate Janov”, does feel to me somewhat missing my sentiments on both the therapy and Janov.
I have long realized that (to repeat) “There is the good, the bad, and the downright ugly part of me” I am not as of this moment trying to eradicate any part of the bad or ugly, nor to promote what little good there is in me. I know who I am (for myself) and can live with it. I am also willing to listen, and for the most part consider what others say about me, and many have taken to telling me in group, the retreats and on the streets and lastly from my ‘Jimbo’, who should know me well enough after 35 years of being together and/or associated with one another. I place a great deal of value in a close relationship with another human being. It’s not that I am some ‘brain box’ at possessing this. I got my ‘mammy’ for the most part and a Granny (my mother’s mother). I did miss out on an ‘expressive’ daddy, even though he meant well … but for the little me, that was not good enough.
The other aspect of me is my ‘homosexuality’. I always knew I was born “gay”, to coin the phrase; but I readily admit now, after many years in therapy, that is it not natural. What I now see is that I was affected in gestation in the womb (no need for me to go into details about it, right now), and that my lack of a feeling-full daddy, exacerbated the issue. However, even in early childhood I never had any terrible feeling about my being different nor any desire to change it. In this respect unlike many other ‘gay’ guys I never had any problems being this way, or wanting to change it.
The other aspect of me is that I see from my early days in therapy that ‘being defensive’ is contrary to my real health, that is both physical and mental. I am not able to say I never am defensive, but I am very conscious of trying hard to not be.
To finally repeat, I love life (so far), and love blogging, especially on this blog.
I am not attempting to teach anyone about anything. We all do it our own particular way, and in our good time, in-spite of many of the reasoning’s emanating from childhood.
Jack
ah, new wave. what a little joy that started out to be, once JL’s death kind of faded. Watching the new mtv after my 1st son was born. I was lucky enough to stay home with him a bit since i was still in school at age 30. anyway. stuff was still dark, but there was a little breath of air still left. lene lovich lucky number. not even sure if it was on mtv. probably. doesn’t matter, heard it somewhere. fresh and upbeat. how can a song like that make me cry? it’s fucking gone, man, fucking gone.
life is so strange, destination unknown. sad.
Guru, First, yes I will protect you. Okay let’s use your gun enthusiast example. Suppose we had several members of the community who had family members murdered with guns. Someone comes on the blog and says ” that’s a lie, guns don’t kill., Guns are made of licorice and they are used at amusement parks to shoot candy into the air for the amusement of all. Anyone who says people have died as a result of guns is deluded, I know the truth and your personal experience and losses are meaningless.” . Suppose this was repeated endlessly, then yes I would allow the candy man to say his view but at some point I would say enough. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Gretch
Gretchen: I’m largely in agreement with you here concerning what Patrick has said. I’m not going to go into this part of WW2 history specifically, except to say that if the unpopular point Patrick raises is being done over and over again where it would injure someone else….yes, it’s probably best to continue raising the point elsewhere eventually.
On the second point of protecting me: I hope you don’t take this as a singular reflection of you, but even though your words are appreciated, words can be empty vessels in this day and age. Would you be willing to purchase a $2 million surety bond as a sign of good faith that your words ring true? You would be a lower risk given your intentions are wholesome, so you could probably buy one cheaply I would imagine.
Gretchen, Thank you for stepping in to address this issue. I don’t know how Guru feels about this but I appreciate how you put it. I think there does need to be some limit which is reasonable.
Phil
Patrick, I answered your question earlier today and yet I don’t see it here. Possibly I turned off the computer before it posted. Hopefully I’m not just missing it and in danger of repeating myself. Anyway I’m not clear why you expect people to cry with happiness when you tell them the Holocaust did not happen. There is a simple reason people are not overjoyed by your news… They simply don’t believe that as there is too much evidence to the contrary. As I have said before I think it’s a mistake to read only those things that confirm your beliefs rather than being knowledgeable on both sides of an argument. The other thing is you misunderstood what I was saying previously. I was not bringing up things you had said in the past to prove you were Anti Semitic . When I said you were not actually censored but instead were asked to stop repeating yourself and posting Kollerstrom videos I was talking about your most recent discussions on the subject. I was making the point that you said your views on the Holocaust multiple times before I said it was enough. I also told you there were other sites with like minded people you could discuss this with. You could even discuss it on your Paleo blog. For that matter you can create your own blog to debate these issues if you wanted to. The point is everyone in the Primal community is clear what your views are and I think it is time to leave it at that. Gretchen
Thank you Patrick for finally cracking that Holocaust case wide open. It is now clearer than ever why Nazis destroyed all those documents and buildings in those resorts, erroneously called concentration camps, and why some of their top officials fled to South America: They didn’t want their Crème brûlée recipe – a camp favorite – to fall into the hands of the allies. You know how touchy those French are about their cuisine.
And since your exhaustive, open minded research found no evidence for any methodical mass-killings of Jews and Gypsies back then, but plenty of evidence for how Jews currently want to bring mayhem and destruction to others, I’d like to suggest you further expand your own ‘beautiful mind’ with the help of another mind beautician. Mein Kampf is back on the bookshelves. Pick it up, in it you will find ideas which you couldn’t have put better yourself.
Welcome back to the blog after such a long absence, Daniel. Your sudden re-appearance reminds me of early 2014 when I decided not to watch the Shoah documentary because I didn’t see much of a point in doing so for myself, yet Patrick apparently did watch the entire nine-hour stretch. He even offered effusive praise for the documentary at the time.
One particular question strikes me here: If Patrick was duly informed of the materials in Shoah, what exactly changed his stance in such a radical, 180-degree turnabout to the opinion he has today? Perhaps a detailed look at exactly what convinced Patrick to change his mind would clear up the matter for everyone involved.
I am a neutral party and I am going to largely step away from the action now.
Guru,
When you say you are neutral, to me that means you must have doubts. All of us, I believe, have probably received an education on these events somewhere along the line, usually in high school. Not that 100% of what we are taught is necessarily true.
Phil
Phil: When I say I am neutral, it means I have disassociated myself from the entire argument as much as possible for a lot of different reasons. I was trying to lend a helpful suggestion that pinpointing exactly what changed Patrick’s mind might end this matter entirely. Maybe it won’t, I don’t know.
I already went over this stuff nearly two years ago. I still have the same outlook.
I will cautiously add that I don’t quite trust the education system because I was never taught a word about the destruction the automobile has wrought. Rich and powerful Americans save $200 billion per year as a result. Boo-yah!
Guru,
I thought that Patrick has shared with us his sources
It sounded more to me like you wanted to activate the debate further
without giving your own views.
Phil
Thanks Guru. I don’t know if Patrick changed his mind and if he did I don’t know why. As Phil says, Patrick has been reading about the subject and I might add he chose a very narrow angle that will prove what he wanted to prove.
This is not a matter of opinion but of fact. After decades of research by researchers from all over the world but mainly in Europe, people who dedicated the better part of their careers to sit in archives and pour over thousands of documents, eye witness accounts, letters sent home, personal diaries, trial transcripts, complaints of locals to authorities, telegrams, architectural plans, train schedules, reports by officials, police records, etc., and did so using the established research methods of studying history, the conclusion that there was a purposeful and systematic destruction of European Jews (the so-called Holocaust) is incontrovertible.
Those who deny it – the ones Patrick turned to – display very poor science, mostly highly selective and taken out of context, and have an agenda, meaning they never just study the facts, connect those facts in a meaningful and logical manner, and draw conclusions about the matter – and only the matter at hand. Instead of seriously grappling with the findings of other researchers they usually come up with some paranoid conspiracy theory to explain why those others reached their findings. That makes their conclusions malintended, politically rather than scientifically driven, and therefore cannot be taken nor are taken seriously by academia or for that matter by decent human beings.
But the fact they cannot be taken seriously doesn’t mean they can’t do harm. They do, because they propagate hate and provide an asylum for ill minded people who don’t know better, giving their hate a destructive direction. As this piece of history demonstrated, that can be deadly.
Daniel,
So very well said, and I totally agree. What’s also notable to me is that it’s part of a pattern: Vaccines are useless and even damaging, HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, it’s caused by the drugs used to treat it., the Holocaust didn’t happen, 911 was an inside job, the moon landings didn’t take place, the recent terrorist attacks here and in France were part of a conspiracy, and I probably forgot a few. Oh yea, primal therapy doesn’t work, it’s a good idea but practiced all wrong, none of us have actually benefited from it. .
Phil
I didn’t like what I said here after posting. Patrick, I hope you can look at all of this and see where it comes from.
Phil
> I feel so powerless and distressed about the situation with my mom.
> recently it seemed things were better, but I just called her and found out she kept the wooden window shutters closed all day, and did not have a clue whether it was morning or evening.
> talking more with her she said she was scared, that there was a brutal guy occasionally trying to get into the house, one who brings medication.
> we inquired some weeks ago about the nurses coming by but she herself said it was not the male one or the girl, and those are the only ones going there so it does not seem to make sense.
> I tried talking with her about it not being good she lives like that, scared with the shutters closed but then she immediately talks as if she never said such a thing, so it is pointless to go on about it.
> if I say I think she’d be better of in the nursiing home instead of living like that, she insists she never wants to go there.
> to calm her down I said it only is my opinion and I won’t force her, but what should I do??
> still let it go on for a while, I guess, until a room comes available and then see if her boyfriend and the doctor can make her agree to go there..
> I hesitate to tell my brother about this as it will only upset him and tomorrow she may have a bettter day.
> will porbably tell him on saturday when I see him, but it is very painful.
> M
Well said Daniel! Guru, I wondered what made you think he ” changed his mind” ? ( I’m on top of that bond thing Guru 🙂 )
To Daniel, Gretchen, and Phil:
Phil & Gretchen: I was not trying to prolong the discussion just for the sake of prolonging it. I was trying to follow the old (perhaps pseudo-Janovian?) principle of getting to the very root, the very crux of the problem/disagreement in order to dislodge the whole thing altogether.
(Get to the root of the ‘feeling’/’disagreement’/’issue’ to finish it out???)
Daniel & Gretchen: Patrick seemed very amenable to that documentary at first, then it grew into an increasingly hostile disagreement over time. It struck me that Patrick had a “change of mind” somewhere early in the discussions.
Daniel: From my own perspective, it is not an issue of denying or accepting the occurrence. Rather, how much significance and attention should be paid towards it? If you want to continue studying it and reviewing, it’s OK with me! I just have to look at other things out of personal necessity.
I get older and crinklier and my time grows more limited each and every day, yes? Have to pay more and more careful attention to what I am paying attention to.
There is nothing more for me to say, really.
They can deny the holocaust all they want. Murdered Jews. Armenians. American Indians. Vietnamese. The fact that no one can (reasonably) deny, is that man is a wild insane beast, and it only takes one lunatic leader such as Hitler or Napoleon to create a war of immense carnage for both soldiers and civiliajns. When you see that beast, if you can’t take him out somehow you best be steppin’, to the hills or wherever. Some people are real good at killing.
on a more private note: dark. disturbed. devastated. another one bites the dust. out of the blue and into the black. she didn’t make it. had to take the 3rd pet in 6 months to the vet to be euthanized. Katrina the cat didn’t want to go. She seemed to be fading fast, lost weight, wasn’t eating, big tumor on her nose. I tried taking her last night, but I could not do it. She perked up the minute we got to the vets. Again today, she was laying on her bed looking like she was about to die, and then she started perking up the minute we got to the vet. It was again immensely destroying to me to watch my pet die, and having to be the one to make it happen.. Z can’t figure out why i have gone inward for so long now, even though i have told her again and again. No fault of hers. She is cup half full. I am no cup at all. At least i was able to get a big tear out. Oh yeah. My youngest kid and his wife had their 2nd baby yesterday. ok then.
I bet there are a lot of nourishing aspects of visiting grandkids, Otto. There has been a pilot project at a nursing home called “The Mount” in Seattle where they bring in a bunch of elementary schoolkids to meet with the old folks. The project seems to work very well for both groups. Re-invigorates the elders, kids learn new things.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/01/the-preschool-inside-a-nursing-home/424827/
Otto, sorry about your kitty. On a happier note, congrats on your new grandchild, a new life.
Margaret, feel for you, having had the same problems with my ma. She would get confused as to when things happened and telling real from unreal, thinking a show on TV was real. She would think those people on a program would be coming over. I explained it was pretend. Day and night was the same for her also, sleeping during the daytime. You are doing all you can right now and I hope your mom becomes more open to the idea of a care residence and accepting that help. Take good care.
S
I know Margaret is deeply worried about her mother, and I won’t detract from that for long. I just wanted to say I haven’t had a drop of alcohol (much less any drug) since that November 7th episode where I drank too much. Am I posting this here because I wanted everyone to give me brownie points or put a feather in my cap saying how proud they are of me? No.
I did want to mention that one of the people I drank with that day had a recent conversation with me where he mentioned the possibility of drinking watered down beer with 3.2% alcohol instead of the standard fare of 5% or greater with other drinks (wine, Kahlua, etc.). As we talked, it was almost as if my buddy was actively negotiating with me to drink again. It subconsciously went along the lines of, “Come on man, there’s lighter stuff out there that can ease you back into the party game.” (He said this quote in a very subtle and diplomatic way by informing me that 3% beer is available) I laugh right now because the discourse was so strange in a way: My friends negotiating with me to inject more manageable amounts of poison in me when I already have enough worries and difficulties to tend to as it is without anything to drink at all. Of course, he respected my decision to stay away from drinking for the time being, yet he will make himself a bit more scarce around me since he wants to party a lot.
I may drink sometime in the future because being a complete lifelong teetotaler feels like a dull and deprived way to live, yet I don’t like the dangerous slippery slope of impaired judgement after 3-4 drinks, either.
OK, back to the difficulties of ordinary life, I guess.
Good for you, UG!
Guru,
Congratulations on this
Phil
Guru, Well whether you want it or not I’m proud of you. Gretchen p.s. As for your friend I do think there is a bit of misery loves company there!
To Margaret, Larry, and Phil: Thank you for your congrats & well wishes, but staying away from drinking was actually an easy decision for a while. My brain wanted a refuge from it!
Gretchen: The reason I wasn’t looking for someone to be proud of me is because it feels very slightly patronizing to me. People tend to be proud of their kids or maybe their pets. I’m aiming towards being the big, hearty lumberjack in the forest like the Brawny paper towel guy by trying to be a strong man who cheerily accepts no help from anyone in case there is a higher being that eventually sorts out all the leeches in the world. Taking a cue from the recent stories from Brazil, people being proud of me starts to leave me with slight touch of adult-onset microcephaly, that is all.
What is so difficult about just simply accepting that Gretchen is proud of you … rather than wanting to be the great macho lumberjack?????? Boy! you seem to make thing more difficult for yourself. as for the onset of adult microcephaly … I doubt you can avoid it.
Maybe you were asking Gretchen to protect you from my comments to you?????? 🙂 🙂
Jack
CORRECTION: The last sentence should have read, “….a slight touch of adult-onset microcephaly…”
See? The symptoms are already starting to appear!
Speaking of which….hello, Jack.
> Ottto,
> your comment about your cat Katrina and your feelings really touched me.
> I relate to what you write about.
> I think a ppet is so vulnerable, trusting, and loving we want to protect it at all cost, and probably identify with its openness and the pureness and vulnerability we once had as small kids, still trusting and needing and able to love fully…
>
> my heart goes out to you, will you be able to see your latest grandkid soon?
> is it a boy or a girl?
> M
> Sylvia,
> thanks for your reply.
> just called my mom, in the morning this time, to make her open the shutters of the windows.
> she started arguing again about this so called fat brutal nurse and this time I went along with her story and told her that guy would not come anymore as I did call the company, which gave her instant relief. of course she will forget it again, but hopefully some of it will stick anyway.
> she did open the shutters, and I tried to coach her into being cooperative when the nurse would show up, telling her it was a service and a medication to allow her to stay in her house for as long as possible.
>
> my brother called me shortly after, and said what a relief it would be if she’d agree to go to the nursing home, as it would solve so many problems, but we’ll have to wait and see when a room gets free if her boyfriend and the doctor can persuade her to go.
> if we try so she only gets more cross and stubborn…
> the call with my mom took a few changes of atmosphere between discussing and arguing but ended in a nice and friendly way, with her being happy and grateful for my calling her and helping her.
>
> at waking up and thinking about my life and the things I need and want to do and how I worry about everything, it struck me it is simply fear I feel all the time, deep early fear that latches onto any focus in sight, looking for ‘rational’ sources.
> I will try to keep that in mind and do whatever seems to scare me, despite of that old monster being continuously triggered.
> it would hold me back of going to the summer retreat if I let the fear take over, but I am working myself up to organizing my trip at some point anyway..
> planned my next exam for march 3, have a lot of studing to do still, but it is interesting material.
> yesterday did all the Parkinson spectrum stuff, today it is schizophrenia..
> that Parkinson is horrible, in most cases, and the medication can ease some of the symptoms sometimes, but can also cause huge side effects.
> this is one disease that would make me want to step out before it got to a certain point, would never want to go through it knowing what can lay ahead..
> sleep disorder conbined with scary dreams when sleeping or psychotic hallucinations while awake, a lot of pain in muscles and joints, bladder disorders and very bad obstipation, frozen face and debilitating movement degradation, cognitive increasing impairments, psychiatric disorders, it sounds worse than anything I have studied about so far, and it is illustrated by one Parkinson patient I met and lived with as a roommate for a while.
> a really awful disease, one of the many of course..
> M
Hi Margaret,
An interesting article I was reading was how Parkinson’s and Schizophrenia are similar neurological ailments differentiated only by levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine in the
sufferer’s brain. That is, Parkinson’s develops due to a dopamine deficiency and Schizophrenia from a dopamine excess.
The brave author detailed how he wished he had Parkinson’s instead of Schizophrenia and could say so when queried about his part-time only work etc. He feels people readily accept Parkinson’s as a legitimate excuse. However, when he responds truthfully that he has a mental illness Schizophrenia – he finds people question its legitimacy & see it as ‘just an excuse.’
Thinking of you with your Mom. Such changes each day – each hour at times it seems. No wonder it can be frustrating and confusing at times… So glad you can balance it all with your brother, your studies, friends and of course the ever adorable kitties!
All the best,
ox L.
> UG,
> I agree with the rest, well done!
>
> and Phil, I found what you said about the pattern very much to the point, and it does show what a nice person you are to feel concerned about how Patrick might feel about what you said.
> it was nice to add that second comment.
> M
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-releases-eichmann-plea-papers/ar-BBoLp6W?li=BBnb7Kz
In the news today, Israel released the Adolf Eichmann plea papers. He was the architect of the Nazi Holocaust and part of the story is copied below:
“I detest as the greatest of crimes the horrors which were perpetrated against the Jews and think it right that the initiators of these terrible deeds will stand trial before the law now and in the future,” he wrote.
He attempted to absolve himself of blame, telling Israel’s then-President Yitzhak Ben-Zvi: “It is not true… that I myself was a persecutor in the pursuit of the Jews… but only ever acted ‘by order of’.”
His plea for clemency was rejected and he was hanged in Ramle prison
I just thought this might be of interest in light of the past discussion.
Phil
> today is Holocaust remembrance day.
> the total number of people killed is about 13 million, including the political prisoners, minorities, like Roma, prisoners of war, psychiatric patients, disabled people etc.
> only in Auschwitz the number of people killed is more than 1 million.
>
> difficult to deny as take for example the tattood numbers on people’s wrists that shows the German tendency to keep records.
> of course some of the actions were secret anyway, and big efforts were also made to make some stuff disappear.
> it is to me a bit surreal all that denial crap can take so much space here just because of one person’s hang for controversy and attention.
> my apologies to all the persons that have suffered from this. it is shameful.
> M
Margaret: On reading this comment of yours I was inspired to; not defend Patrick , but for another perspective on how I see what was taking place. Not that how I see it, is definitive in any way; just my feeling on the matter.
I feel he thinks he is expressing his sentiments on all these matters. Sadly, as I see it, he is proselytizing his beliefs sort of with a ‘missionary zeal’ and the sad thing is, I fear, he does not fully realize the resentment he creates for himself. He becomes inordinately angry when I quote back his own words to him; but thinks it ok to attempt a conversion job on the rest of us. He seemingly feels he is revealing a “truth”, whereas I see him promoting nothing more than some deeper feeling within himself.
We all came to do this therapy for our own very good ‘hopes’ and reasons and for many of us we were willing to pay the price, whatever that price was. It would have been lovely if the suggestion at the onset was only going to be a six months process. Sadly, it turned out the process for the most part takes way longer than that. I don’t think Art Janov was lying, but as I read him, that is what he THEN felt would be all that was necessary. Since he seemingly acknowledges, it takes way more than that for most of us.
I do feel psycho analyzing anyone, Patrick or otherwise, is not particularly productive. Of course, we are all entitled to our own view of what is taking place.
Jack
> Leslie,
> I do understand that guy feeling really bad about the stigma that hangs onto schizophrenia, people have a lot of negabive byass about those people being completely unpredictable and dangerous.
> also it is a stigma for life,as the medical criteria so far focus on labelling it but do not pay any attention to ‘unlabelling’ those who never relapse after their first attacks of the disease.
> now it is not a small disiease of course, and actually it is not similar to Parkinson completely as the dopamine in sShizofrenia is in some brain parts too active and in other parts not active enough, what makes an entirely different approach necessary.
> also Parkinson cnnot really be treated or slowed down or stopped, only some symptoms may be temporarily relieved.
> some people are lucky to have a mild form with mostly only tremors, but most have a very nasty future ahead.
> so that guy might reconsider his wishes, really.
> at least that is what I have been learning so far.
> today is the day of the autism spectrum studying..
> I should go to my new gym and condition class but feel a bit ill, throat aching, sweaty, cough, so again won’t go this week, don’t feel like workig myself into a sweaty state in a place with open windows today, might be good but don’t feel up to it.
> feel bad about it as I could use the exercise and socializing. well, more fridays to come I guess, will spend some of my energy cleaning up here and changing sheets etc. to feel a bit better…
>
> I have just had a cold a few weeks ago, but they say a flu epidemy is starting up here, hope that’s not it…
>
> how are you and Barry doing?
> do you plan to go to the summer retreat?
> I’d like to make it there, but as I feel right now it feels like a dreadful task, very scary somehow, sigh..
> M
Margaret,
Isn’t Parkinson’s usually with older people? Schizophrenia can be so severe that you don’t have a life; like in my brothers case.
This week I saw a report of a recent study that has researchers excited. They have identified some genes which are involved with “pruning” unneeded neural synapses.
The genes identified apparently become overactive in adolescence and are associated with schizophrenia. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/28/health/schizophrenia-cause-synaptic-pruning-brain-psychiatry.html?_r=0
I thought to see if Dr. Janov would comment about this in his blog.
Phil
I have to wonder wonder if synapse pruning is normal or desirable at all. Maybe it also has something to do with neurosis. Maybe it’s involved with how we cut ourselves off form our childhood histories, and in excess causing schizophrenia.
Phil
Margaret & Phil: Thanks for the reminder to check my backyard shrubbery & front yard bushes to make sure everything is neatly trimmed.
Thanks Margaret,
I appreciate your clarification and knowledge. I did not check what the author claimed – and of course know we both empathize with either or any disease and/or disability.
The Retreat will be amazing!! – as you know. I can imagine the prospect of the big journey etc. feels daunting at this point – but then you get there and ahhhh…Nothing else like it in the world – with the best people from the world over. Each and every time has been such an unique and incredible journey for me. It is the most unbelievable, yet calming thought to realize – all I have to be is MYSELF. I love that and where else does that happen??
Unfortunately, for this summer only 1 of us can go & we are hoping Barry can.
L
I had an interesting dream last night. I was at the summer retreat and two local friends were there with me, but they did not seem to be participating, only observing. The therapists were new and were giving unusual assignments, like reading passages from books. In group I seemed to be stuck in a tangle of people and then started having birth feelings, pushing with my head against pillows. Then I woke up. There was some more to it that I don’t recall. I had a verydeep sleep and woke up today feeling quite good and refreshed.
I think this is related to an extreme work out I had at the gym last evening. Maybe that lessens some of my physical defenses as well as burns off the energy of some feelings. However, other times working out like this in the evening has led to sleeping poorly and struggling with feelings coming up for days afterwards. I enjoy what I do at the gym, mostly playing racquetball, yoga once a week, and a few minutes spent on machines.
Phil
> Phil,
> that certainly is a very interesting dream!!
> M
> hi Phil,
> there is also a familiar kind of Parkinson that can start earlier, and sometimes even at a young age.
> Schizofrenia has a very wide range of individual differences, from very mild or with only one temporary outbreak to very severe and disabling and chronical.
> there is also a big difference to how people respond to the different medications.
> so with schizofrenia chances are not all bad it can be controlled or will even remain sleeping, but with Parkinsons the prognoses are usually not good at all, and mostly medication only helps for a limited amount of time to ease the symptonms and that same medication has also a lot of side effects.
> they are both diseases one wishes never to have to deal with.
> I am very sorry your brother has such a bad case.
> today have been reading about the autism spectrum and its neurological symptoms.
> there is still so much to be discovered about these diseases, about the genetic factor and the environment factors, like too high testosterone levels during pregnancy might be a factor as well for autism, or for some kinds of autism as there too it is a wide range.
>
> I notice how there is a tendency to regard the physical part as a cause generally, sometimes disregarding the aspect of the impact of the emotional and other kind of environment actually shaping the neurological state of the brain.
> for example prolonged stress is proved to cause atrophy of some important brain areas, in which case the cause is reversed so to say.
> i find all of this very interesting and regret I get into it so late in my life, and wish I had a magic wand to create all kind of scientific research settings to connect what I experienced so far in my primal history with the physical and other evidence out there.
> it would be nice to find connections and the middle way between the cognitive science and the so called psycho analitical approach, a very unprecise label that seems to cover most of the more feeling-oriented approaches.
> the label psychodynamic approach sounds better to me.
> some diseases have a strong physical genetic factor, but mostly there needs to be a trigger from outside, like stress for example, to activate that wrong set of genes.
> like the numbers of cases of schizofrenia are interesting, there are more cases in urban surroundings, more on the northern parts of the globe that are far from the equator,, more among immigrants, etc.
> it can be depressing to learn about all what can go wrong, but it is also a fascinating field as to try and unravel how it can be avoided possibly or treated.
> there is a very very long way to go there, and all I would love to be able to do is to put one timy drop into the ocean to enhance the attention for early feelings/emotions as an important factor in a person’s physical and emotional development.
> might never happen, as also I would have a very very long way to go still to be able to dream of getting something published, and would probably never have the means to do the proper research and struggle with al the others wanting to publish, but hey, one needs a dream and a goal to keep going, and this is what feels kind of natural as it really interests me and matters to me..
> maybe I would get a bit sidetracked if a boyfriend would cross my path, but so far that risk seems small…
>
> i do need something though to keep me going, in order not to give in to the dark dark feelings of the small hours of the night..
> M
Margaret,
With this paper which shows possible genetic causes for schizophrenia, which is probably the area getting the most research, it might have the impact of stimulating even more genetic research and even less attention given to environmental factors and emotions I’m afraid.
I think there are an unfortunate large number of people with severe schizophrenia and psychosis. These are people who in this country in past years were housed in institutions. Now a lot of them are the homeless found in large cities.
Phil
The last comment was from me not Margaret.
Phil
> Phil,
> mmm, I would think most of the pu
> runing is good to create more space and energy for the connections that start forming networks by being used, but of course there might be some truth in what you say too.
> but on the other hand, if real pruning would occur due to primal pain, we would not be able to restore some of the damage by reconnecting the networks that were shut off by allowing the pain to run its way..
> there might be several different functions going on there, pruning and ‘disconnecting’ in some way, with the disconnection causing some kind of stress reaction to try to undo it, causing actouts of all kinds but also forming the gate to reconnection under the right circumstances.
> wish we could do some groups inside mri scanners, smiley, and do some fmri studies on what goes on when a feeling is on the rise and then gets connected.
> would be extremely interesting..
> what reminds me of another interesting fact, which is with autism the amygdala and hippocampus area if I remember well, have much more dense cell material than ‘normal’ brains, making them probably also extremely sensitive to any cause of stress, social stress like looking in someon’s eyes or too much input or change of routine.
> those are the thoughts that go to my brain while I read about this..
> it is stimulating to feel how my curiosity and interest get tickled..
> M
Margaret,
I wonder if synapses lost through pruning can be reestablished through therapy,
meaning recovered connections.
Phil
> Phil,
> I think when they use the word ‘pruning’ it means the entire neuron is destroyed, but I might be wrong.
> synapses can be deactivated too I think, the average neuron has about 5000 .
> I really like learning about those things.
> at some point during gestation the foetus forms 250.000 new neurons a minute, and I don’t remember the exact number we have upon being born, but a large part of them are pruned eventually shortly after..
> Phil, could you please mail me that comment you posted under my name, as I do not receive the comments I supposedly post..
> thanks, M
Margaret I grabbed Phil’s comment under your graviar: here it is:-
Margaret,
With this paper which shows possible genetic causes for schizophrenia, which is probably the area getting the most research, it might have the impact of stimulating even more genetic research and even less attention given to environmental factors and emotions I’m afraid.
I think there are an unfortunate large number of people with severe schizophrenia and psychosis. These are people who in this country in past years were housed in institutions. Now a lot of them are the homeless found in large cities.
Phil
Margaret,
A quote from the report in the New York Times:
“The researchers pieced together the steps by which genes can increase a person’s risk of developing schizophrenia. That risk, they found, is tied to a natural process called synaptic pruning, in which the brain sheds weak or redundant connections between neurons as it matures.”
It doesn’t sound like they are describing neurons being pruned, which is hopeful.
Phil
Hi Phil. I think Janov believes that mental illness (depression, psychosis, bi-polar, etc.) gets its start in the womb. And our early experiences of our moms having a difficult pregnancy can affect us, making us short of the neurotransmitters necessary for mental stability. Supposedly this can affect the baby’s genes and that susceptibility to mental illness can be passed on to her/his offspring too.
I think Janov believes therapy can work with psychotic patients but a residential environment would be necessary. An alternative to life-long medications would be something if the mental health institutions ever grasped the concept of reliving trauma to get well or the acknowledgement of psychosis’ origin.
S
Sylvia,
I wonder Janov would say about the significance of the recent research on synaptic culling and how that might fit with his theories.
Phil
The thing about this theory of excessive synaptic pruning in adolescence causing schizophrenia is that it ignores the problems of those individuals earlier in childhood.
I think that the signs are there, it doesn’t spring up out of nowhere in adolescence.
Phil
> I hate to think of how it must be to be put out in the streets while suffering from schizofrenia…
>
> it is incomprehansible that happened and is still the case..
> M
I would think this would help to build character in one’s ruggedly individualistic pursuit of the American Dream without being neurotically dependent on others during adulthood, wouldn’t it? I bet the Brawny paper towel guy deep in the Idaho woods would agree!
Guru: Maybe a thin line between Brawny man and Ted Kacynski, the Unabomber living isolated and hating the world. Anyway, cannot imagine someone with mental illness would not be better off with good housing even if dependent. But of course, you were joking.
S
Sylvia: Good perception. Yes, I was kidding.
Sylvia: I’m impressed you knew the Unabomber’s name. Few people do! It’s an interesting mystery why accomplished mathematicians such as the Unabomber and Alexander Grothendieck suddenly abandon their studies and run from society to live the rest of their lives in a remote forest shack.
Guru,
You know that there is the opposite neurosis of being stubbornly independent and imagining not needing much from anyone. That’s the one I have tended to suffer from.
It’s become clear to me it’s because I didn’t get a lot of what I needed as a child from my parents and then cut myself off from the pain of those unfulfilled needs.
The US does seem to suffer from this as a society. It’s too expensive to properly take care of the mentally ill, we might have to tax all those millionaires and billionaires a bit more to provide for the homeless
Phil
Phil: Well, I’m glad you were able to at least fend for yourself financially. Better that than to be totally helpless and no one willing to help, anyway. You can retire and not have to worry about the rat race anymore.
Guru,
I hope so, but not quite yet, and no one knows what the future will bring.
I guess that’s why the stock markets are going up and down like crazy on any little news.
Phil
Ay-ay-ay!!!
Guru, When my daughter was in third grade she and her classmates had to come up with the proverbial ” science project” . Since I am not as skilled as some I was not able to do my child’s assignment as so many parents do. Ha! In any case she had to first find a concept and then create the actual experiment and display. She decided that she wanted to determine which of several paper towels was actually the strongest. Bad news Guru, the man you aim to be was fronting all along. Despite the tough exterior it turns out he needs as much help as the rest of us! 🙂 Gretch
Guru,
I remember when they were looking for the Unabomber. Am not familiar with the other mathematician (Alexander), but read a little about him.
Read some interesting things about Kacynski on Wikipedia that might explain his obsessiveness.
When he was nine mos. old he had hives real bad and placed in hospital with no visitors allowed, the Drs. not sure of its cause, and treated several times at the hospital over an eight-month period. His mom wrote: “Baby home from hospital and is healthy but quite unresponsive after his experience.” Because he was so smart he skipped 6th grade onto 7th and recalled not fitting in with the other older children and being bullied. Anyway, he had a tough time relating to people and basically feared them. It is an interesting piece on the making of a vengeance-seeking recluse.
So much for Friday night.
Isn’t ‘Bounty’ the quicker-picker-upper? and strong, too.
S
> Phil,
> I relate to what you said about the neurotic idea of ‘not needing anyone’, which was actually what I was proud about upon entering therapy..
> have come a lon way since.
> this night had a dream about several threatening things, the last being one that kept coming towards me/us, first from a distance, like a boat aiming right at me speeding in my direction threatening to hit me.
> then it became several times the same boat coming from any direction me, or us, would turn to to run, every side that same boat was coming up closer and closer pretty fast.
> at some point it felt like I was in a boat myself, and had the choice to try and avoid the other boat that seemed about to hit me, from all sides, or to let my vessel take its own way.
> I remember coming to the conclusion that the trick was not to try and steer anything, to let things go their way, and yes, from that moment on the threat disappeared.
> later on laying awake I got overwhelmed with the deep basic sense of being alone, with only myself as company, in a very basic way. for a moment I was able to grasp it and accept it, and for a oment it made me feel like an adult woman instead of well, a girl,a child,, non mature..
> it felt sad but also like a stronger position if I could hold onto that, being mature but accepting the deep deep sadness of the aloneness, it is hard to explain.
> it seems to be like almost two different aspects, that being alone , or feeling alone, and the loneliness of not having enough company in my daily life, which makes it all harder.
> things are so much easier when one has a steady (nice) companion in life, the world then becomes a much more friendly place sort of, more pleasurable and safe..
>
> and Phil, I remember now you are right about the pruning, that is used for the synapses being unactivated.
> the similar process with neurons has another name, something like ontose or well, I don’t remember the name properly, could look it up and might do so eventually, just to get it out of my system, smiley, hate to look for a word and not find it..
> Leslie, that’s too bad that only one of you can go to the retreat, hope some solutions rise so you can go both!
> M
Margaret,
Very interesting dream and how you felt afterwards, accepting the deep basic sense of being alone. Maybe that starts to happen after getting through all the unfulfilled childhood needs, which sounds like a good thing, and if being alone is your choice.
We watched a depressing movie last night called “Beasts of no Nation”. It’s about the young boys in Africa forced and trained to become soldiers after most of the people in their villages have been killed in the war. These boys go on to become beasts who commit all kinds of atrocities while being drug intoxicated,
Someone had recommended it but it was excessively violent and just emphasized the senseless nature of wars.
Phil
Sylvia & Gretchen:
If you were a CEO or a director of a paper towel company having to answer to shareholders by increasing profitability, which option would you choose?
a) Bounty paper towels, with its generic package design yet superior, more expensive towel quality?
~or~
b) Brawny paper towels, with a sexy, macho lumberjack image that many stay-at-home moms & wannabe tough guys love to have in the kitchen or workshop, only the towel quality is 10% inferior and cheaper than Bounty?
(assuming both brands sell the same number of units)
I think this would plumb the deepest crevasses of the Science Fair question 😀
I just wonder what feeling/s are going on for you to ask the question in the first place
I do have to admit that most of your comment fly right over my cuckoo’s nest, but then I’m not into the varying brands of paper towels. I don’t even see your sense of humor … but then I suppose my humor is limited … maybe due to something that happened in the womb. Not gotten to that one yet. 😦
Jack
OK Jack, I will break it down for you a bit more:
Gretchen explained that her daughter’s science fair project showed Brawny paper towels being inferior in quality compared to the others. I tried to give a deeper explanation that the highest executives of the company making Brawny likely used the valuable brand equity of a macho lumberjack to enable the executives to cheapen the base materials of the paper towels themselves for higher profits. People are so enamored with the macho image that it allows the corporate decision makers to make higher margins with a cheaper product than a generic towel package design would allow.
Does that help?
Only in-so-far as I feel your main focus about anything is “Money”. I personally find that a bad choice for a pursuant in life. I even think Patrick had some word for you, with you, respecting the limits of it’s usefulness in life. So no; it did not help.
You know my feelings about it … I presume. If not, then I too will break it down for you.
I kinda feel you missed the essence of Gretchen;s remark … on the other hand may I missed it also.
Jack
Guru, I think homemakers soon realized the deception in advertising. I know I came to think of the Brawny man as a fake. And you have to wonder about the connection to paper towels…is he going to chop down a tree right there and make paper products?
Think that people catch on pretty quickly and are only fooled for a bit and know what is a good reliable product. The ad-men might do better to have a spotted owl okaying the product as an approved paper source. Go green.
S
Sylvia: I have a bunch of stuff to take care of that demands my attention until late Sunday/early Monday. I have to delay any deep paper towel pontifications until then.
Sylvia: Let me just drop this thought as a placeholder since I still have a few minutes to fool around. The Brawny man of the 1970’s has been widely snickered at as resembling a vintage male porn star until the image was updated in the 2000’s.
I’m just wondering if buying Brawny paper towels was a semi-prurient adult extension of girls wanting protective teddy bears, Why would you worry about the inferior stuffing underneath a teddy bear if it subconsciously brings you protection and comfort?
Just a thought I had. NOW I gotta go, be back later.
Guru, I guess it depends on the eye of the beholder as to who it speaks to. Each of the male lumberjacks could be a nice guy from “The Village People”, too. Depends on what the buyer needs in their life what they will see.
S
And then there is the log driver’s Waltz and the Lumerjack song to add depth and substance to the image:
Larry, very enjoyable songs and dance of the logs. Such fun images of log waltzes, danger and skill, a thrill.
S
Would you marry a log driver, Sylvia?
Afterward I didn’t feel good about posting the Lumberjack song, seeing as there are people having great difficulty struggling with personal transgender issues. I would delete it if I could.
I would replace it maybe with the Blackfly song, another gentle ribbing of the romantic image of working in the woods.
Larry. I must say there is something alluring about seeing those men so agile on those streaming logs. Must awaken the cheerleader gene rooting for someone to win in a game or a rodeo.
Monty Python is always a hoot. The English have a different sense or feeling for transgender, I think. I see men dressed up as women characters more than the US. Isn’t there a Dame Edith (not sure of name) that is a beloved character. Anyway, nice that you are sensitive to those struggling with it.
Godamn, it’s cold! Kid is in the kitchen with no shirt on but he has an apron on. The soon-to-be phd. Cooking with Ms. Z. Not sure what they cooking. Not sure I care. I should care. I should be in there like the Rostovs and the Pierre Bazukov (War and Peace) having a happy-go-lucky joyous family moment. But I am in my bedroom, watching Battle of Midway on my computer, with the short tailed black cat and Sophie the dachshund who is sad because her 2 dog buddies are dead. I went to the PI today to cry in the little room. Actually I did not think I was going to feel a damn thing, because I am doing my hardest to cram food down my gullet these days to kill all feeling. Apparently, it is not working at killing feeling, however my stomach is bulging quite a bit. I cried over Katrina the cat, who I had to watch die at the vets this week. I cried hard and loud to the 80’s beat of Lene Lovich and Missing Persons. I could not have cried loud like that at home. I feel stupid that I have to go to the PI to cry. But I guess it is the same as people going to church to pray, or to a tanning salon to get brown. I rarely feel anything come up at home anyway, and I don’t feel very safe to cry unless Z is not here. I also listened to “Let Me Show You Where its at” and the crying expanded into me losing my beautiful home in Hollywood with my somewhat-caring Aunt and Uncle and 3rd grade girlfriend and another friend and the greatest stability that I had had in my short life for a long time. My grandmother had moved us to Long Beach and my life was shattered once again. I was getting insights about how friends were so good in my life, whether they were animal or people. The Siamese cat I lost this week reminded me of the Siamese cat that I eventually got in Long Beach. That cat was a big part of keeping myself together, although I always seemed to make people- friends too, though I have no idea how that happens to a fucking autistic scaredy-cat. It felt like the crying wanted to go to yet another level, but I guess 40 minutes of it was enough, so I left. I don’t feel any relief, as usual, well maybe I will be less angry tomorrow. Probably will have to go down and help out the other kid, who has to go to work finally. His wife gave birth this week but by cesarian, and her foot became numb and stayed numb, and Z and I offered to help, even though the kid told us a while back that she thinks we are shit. Speaking of anger, some bitch nurse boss complained about me at work last week in an email to my bosses, and I feel so humiliated that I cannot get it off of my mind.
Dumb ass bitch nurse: IT Leaders: This is our second request to expedite this work order originated Jan 14th and another work order on the 16th for the same issue. May we know who is the supervisor of Otto Codingian? This work order has been open for more than a week.User(s) assigned on this PC are not able to get into their programs which means they cannot even give patients needed appointments and other business. This is in violation to (some dumbass super-boss’s) goal of patients having access to their providers. This is a critical part of patient care for our department.” Signed Dumb-ass bitch RN, StupidheadCunt
Then one of my dumbass mid-level bosses to another prissy-ass bitch boss: “D, can you go take care of this right now please?” (dumbass boss should go take care of it, he set up this whole program to make himself look good)
Prissy-ass bitch boss reply:” Per my phone conversation I had just now with (Stupid-asshole-supposed-compujter expert-wannabe-fuckface-admin-guy-who-gets-in-my-way-anytime-I-go-over-to-help-those-assholes—my name for this asshole), I’m going to bring a new computer to replace this problematic PC in the next 10 minutes. See you soon. “
Prissy-ass boss “D”reply later: “I’ve replaced the computer with a new..blah blah blah. It actually took me 11 minutes instead of 10..my apoligies”
My fat-ass motherfucking top boss reply to Prissy-ass boss’s reply: “You the MAN, “D”!”
Stupid nurse boss again: “IT Leaders–I value your time, my apology on having to reach out to this level for a work that could have been handled by your technicians (STUPID FUCKING RETARD OTTO CODINGIAN). Rest assured we utilize every avenue to work this on the proper level and given timeframe before escalating to leadership. Our In-house IT expert (Stupid-asshole-supposed-computer-expert-wannabe-fuckface-admin-guy-who-gets-in-my-way-anytime-I-go-over-to-help-those-assholes ) utilizes his expertise and capabilities even prior to opening a ticket or reaching out to your technicians. Although with his access limitations, some work is impossible. Your sincere diligence is very much appreciated.”
(This fuckhead is probably the one who is corrupting all these computers by trying to hack admin access into them.)
Not an apology to me, and actually she is telling my fuck-ass bosses in a passive-aggressive way that they don’t know how to manage their fucking creephole dipshit cretin worker–ME!
I emailed 2 bosses how I felt they did not support their workers and got one lame reply, and if they talk to me Monday I am going to remind them that I was only doing my work the way that they wanted—oldest tickets first, screw the priority level, and this bitch was way down the list time-wise, and they need to tell that bitch of THEIR error, and that they accept the responsibility and that I am one of their best workers. And they need to say this via email to her and all previous recipients of the original bullshit diatribe she sent out so that everyone sees the correction.To top it off, Prissy-ass boss has work orders that are open for over a month! fuckheads
By the way, I don’t think people catch on pretty quick. People are easy to fool. See Nazi Germany for an example of this. And Imperial Japan. And the average voter in the U.S. A lot of us are mindless sheep. Not necessarily me. The propaganda only gets more and more clever, but images still make us latch onto shit ideas very easily. And if you use paper towels in the toilet, because you ran out of toilet paper, hope you have a plunger. I am married, so I think we must have gotten a plunger as a wedding present.
Yes, Otto, people wanting to be fooled into thinking others know best or have ‘the answers’ would explain D. Trumps popularity. ‘Make America Great Again’? How simple it all really is….not.
Images. I wish you could see the ad that Monsanto has in Good Housekeeping. Latin mother with her little girl with Indian looks and Indian pigtails. They are in a store examining a clean beautiful bell pepper or something. The verbiage in swirly font says, we should all be picky eaters. Lets have a conversation on how we are going to feed an ever-growing population. This is from the company that poisons Latin and other 3rd world farmers in their fields (and probably everyone when we eat their produce) with their toxic chemicals, and patents their seeds in devious ways so that the farmers have to buy them. And yet, most Americans probably think of Monsanto’s Green Revolution as a good thing. ha.
I have to say one more thing. About this song Show you where its at. Joyous double-entendre Black gospel (ha). Show you where it’s at, i was thinking about when we moved to Long Beach. You know how when you move, people or kids show you where stuff is in the neighborhood, the liquor store where you buy candy and soda, and you look around the new house, here’s your bedroom. I was getting some real big tears from that song speaking to me today. Just got chills a minute ago thinking of this insight or why this song means so much to me. It was a song of that time period, and also there was some other joy associated with it, maybe my new friends showing me stuff, maybe my joyous cousins coming over and showing me happy stuff about life. Back when i still had some hope. Where did my fucking joy go?
I literally did not open the blog for a week. I was ‘disgusted’ and with myself mostly and mostly because I lose my cool and degenerate in calling Jack ‘names’. To be clear I have nothing ‘against’ gays at all so it’s even in my own terms a ‘weak’ name. Plus I know it does not bother Jack at all to be called those ‘names’ he dealt with a lot worse in that regard long long ago. So that’s the most thing I am/get ‘disgusted’ with myself about. It’s not even being ‘me’ it’s weak in that it does not affect the ‘target’ and it makes me look very bad (I feel). So there and I suppose l”sorry Jack’ not that it seems to bother you anyway.
I kind of scrolled/read through all the comments now and if it matters to give a few reactions. I liked Phil’s digest of my ‘beliefs’ very much thought he apologized right after for saying it no need to apologize Phil I thought it was excellent accurate and funny to boot. Here it is again I liked it so much
“Vaccines are useless and even damaging, HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, it’s caused by the drugs used to treat it., the Holocaust didn’t happen, 911 was an inside job, the moon landings didn’t take place, the recent terrorist attacks here and in France were part of a conspiracy, and I probably forgot a few. Oh yea, primal therapy doesn’t work, it’s a good idea but practiced all wrong, none of us have actually benefited from it.”
Thank you Phil I could not have put it better myself. I think I will ‘keep’ it and if someone on say a ‘dating site’ wants to know what I am all about I will just post that lol. That should mean the end of the ‘date’ which is about the same that happens anyway lol again.
I had a few other reactions: Guru it’s not so much that I ‘changed my mind’ I was already mouthing off about how nasty Israeli behavior is (NOT the holocaust I was ‘agnostic’ on that but speculated that if something has such ‘nasty’ effect I might wonder about the ‘thing itself’) and Daniel was on the blog actively at the time and suggested I watch “Shoah” so I decided to listen to him and did that. And as I said at the time I DID find it very moving in places (there was one scene where a Hungarian jailer who worked for the Nazis at the singing of the Hungarian national anthem by a group of Hungarians about to enter a ‘gas chamber’ just decided to join them! And they were saying “no” you live and tell the story later. Well I found that very moving and could sort of imagine myself similarly say if the Irish national anthem………………..anyway you get the point.
But see now well in light of all I have read and it is as clear as it can be there NEVER were any ‘gas chambers’ ……………..see where does that leave me? How about “emotionally manipulated” There are lots of examples like that in the movie……………..I think it opens about Treblinka and this ‘story’ about how the Nazis first of all buried like I dunno a million ‘gas chamber victims’ and later DUG THEM UP and burned them all and threw the ashes in a river or something to avoid detection……………..and I have read a lot about Treblinka now and well that’s the most absurd and exaggerated story I don’t know what to say. Treblinka was a ‘transit camp’ most likely nobody died there the field is still there undisturbed……………..so that’s another aspect ’emotional manipulation’ that’s a big LIE in itself. Nobody should be making those kinds of movies it would be called ‘hate speech’ as indeed Gretchen does!! Can you imagine if someone made a movie about Jews showing them in any kind of bad light what a hullabaloo this would cause yet the Germans have to listen and see all this crap year after year and cannot say anything. If they do the go to Jail and in their own country!! What does that tell you……………
Ok enough about that and of course I admit some very nasty things happened to Jews in that war being displaced and moved around to ghettos and camps well that’s not very nice. Neither thought is the bombing of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima/Nakasaki but I don’t see those ‘victims’ being compensated and legally being called ‘holocaust victims’. So my point above all is the imbalance of it and worse the continuing effects of it. The ‘holocaust’ is used and it seems will be forever and ever for appalling behavior so that was where I got interested in the subject and sort of where I come back to
Anyway the comments were interesting to read I find Gretchen’s sort of the ‘weakest’ she shows no curiosity or desire to ‘learn’ anything new……………….I suppose like ‘primal’ to her it is all ‘fixed and decided’ well to me it is not not by a long shot……………….
Patrick,
It seems possible to me that you are attracted to ideas and theories simply because they are unconventional and/or controversial. The theories I listed which you believe in all seem to depend on massive errors, or massive lies and conspiracies to be valid, and I think supporting them reflects a very cynical outlook.
Phil
Phil – I can see why you would say that or think that it still kind of leaves out the question if they are ‘true’ or not. See I might also say Phil that you seem attracted to ideas and theories that are conventional and middle of the road. The theories you seem to support and believe in all depend on a kind of ‘majority rule’ and appear to be just the ‘dog food’ that is served to the compliant and un-knowing masses and reflects a very kind of go along to get along type of mindset. No need to ‘think’ or investigate for yourself and that does not work for me.
Perhaps suspicion and mistrust for the accepted proofs or facts has its foundation in personal experience.
Sylvia – oh please………………..or as I think Steve Martin used to say PUL-EEZE
Too simple, huh. Good ol’ Steve, a wild and crazy guy.
Patrick,
Actually I have investigated all of these things fairly extensively as they have been of interest to me, with the goal of learning the truth.
This has already been said but it’s worth repeating; you seem to pick and choose poor sources for your theories and ignore the rest. It could be you just don’t know what qualifies as a good source, or you don’t want to know.
When something has so much evidence and documentation backing it up, like the Holocaust, it is no longer just an idea or theory but a fact. The only way it could be better proven to me would be if I was there myself as a witness.
Phil
> Otto,
> it feels good you can share all this stuff here.
> I can totally relate to a cat, or two, feeling like a freind, or family, keeping one connected somehow.
> and also the other stuff you write about, it is good you share it, or well, that is how it feels to me, I am glad you do.
>
> and Phil, the word for programmed neuron death seems to be apoptose, but in this textbook it is mainly used for the adult brain, while I seem to remember it was also used for cleaning up unused neurons in the very young brain, but maybe it was still another word, might look it up at some point..
> not that it matters, smiley just a loose end I want to weave into my carpet..
> M
Margaret,
I sent Janov a message on his blog with the hope he will comment on that topic of synaptic pruning and schizophrenia in relation to primal theory. The word for programmed cell death for cells of any type is apoptosis.
I am just curious because this recent research on excessive synaptic pruning is being hailed as a major finding.
Phil
> today, changing from studying to reading a very ‘easy’ kind of book for a while, I ran into a part where the central person, a woman, buries the last things she has from her mom, and talks to her in the meantime.
> she had not seen her mom for years, after a childhood full of mixed feelings, as as it turned out later, her mom had some kind of bipolar disorder.
> at the time they had their last argument that was not discovered yet, and they had not seen each other until finally the daughter found out her mom had died in an accident nearby the psychiatric clinic she had found shelter in.
> of course hearing al of that had raised many feelings in her, apart of the anger she had already felt, guilt and sadness and forgiveness and a lot of grieving, as there had also been many good times before the mother got so angry at her daughter for becoming more independent she told her to get lost and never come back which the daughter did.
> well, long explanation to say how the words the daughter spoke, to her mom while burying the stuff, saying she forgave her and also begging her to forgive her, and more, and the music playing was Edith Piaf, ‘je ne regrette rien’, also my mom’s favourite song…
> that triggered me, all the need and pain and understanding and forgiveness and sadness, the main feeling while crying being something like ‘sorry I could not give you what you needed, love me, love me, it feels like I am not good enough, love me, let me, let me know you like me how I am’..
> not fully done with it, but the switch was definitely turned on…
>
> my brother brought her here yesterday and it was kind of ok, but it is clear she is on her own wavelength and we feel more and more the pain of needs that will remain unfulfilled and the frustration of not being able to make things right..
> the good part is I still feel closer and closer with my brother, and that is very nice..
> M
> Patrick,
> it is probably pointless to say this, but what about what Gretchen said, all you decided to read, apart from watching Shoah, seemed to have been books trying to prove the holocaust did not happen.
> did you read other books, with testimonies and pictures of what was really found back then?
>
> you still seem to be stuck in your controversial pattern.
> I suggest you start reading some good mainstream books about the history as well, or maybe even visit one of the museums or even go to a former concentration camp and take a look.
> it is pretty crazy to say probably noone died in Treblinka.
> some of us happen to have read quite a bit about these things as well, but hey, this is all I am gonna say about it as it will only stimulate you more to stick to your struggle.
> it is f… frustrating you seem to drew some lesson and then boom you prove it is all back to your starting point once more.
> your weakness is definitly not that you were not able to hurt Jack.
> I don’t get how someone can be so smart and so dumb and deaf at the same time. it is too bad.
> and if you stick to this craziness well, and if you really want to be ‘cool’, shut up about it please.
> M
Margaret – you say read some good ‘mainstream books’…………..what I don’t get sometimes is how ‘conventional’ a lot of primal people (generalizing ok) are about well most everything…………EXCEPT ‘psychology’ Like that stuck me about Daniel’s comments also like suddenly there is all this great faith in conventional beliefs and approaches.All of a sudden it’s all about ‘peer review’ and ‘standard text books’ well again to repeat apply that to ‘psychology’. Nobody here does and I would say for good reason. All this ‘brain science’ blah blah blah and what do they come up with really nothing imo.
Really this is not just to be ‘controversial’ or ‘obnoxious’ (well maybe it is on some distant feeling level) but anyway I go with what I see and can understand. And I am sorry good ‘main-stream text books’ does not do it for me in many many areas and it seems MORE and more as time goes by. So I am just letting my boat float where it does and let it do it’s thing as best as I can without ‘interference’ from my ‘head’. (will this get ‘quoted back’ -probably lol)
Anyway Margaret this is addressed to you and maybe something for you to think about…………maybe you could ‘abandon’ primal and just get lost in your world of statistics and ‘peer review’ and all the other baloney………………I don’t think you want to do that and I don’t blame you………
Speaking about good ‘main stream’ approaches we are now meant to be scared of a new virus Zika or whatever it is called. Here is a bit from a guy I really like on these kind of subjects is Jon Rappoport and below at the end the full link to his take on it
“If you want to hide anything on this planet, twist it into a (fake) story about a virus. You’re home free.
This is my second article on the Zika-virus scam (article archive here). I’ve been to these rodeos before: HIV, West Nile, Swine Flu, SARS, Ebola. In each case, a virus is blamed for illness and death that actually arises from other causes.
The Zika virus, now being blamed for the birth of babies with very small heads and impaired brains, has been around for a long time—late 1940s, early 1950s—and suddenly, without warning or reason, after inducing, at best, mild illness, it’s producing horrendous damage? This is called a clue. A clue that scientific liars are lying. Furthermore, many of the women who are giving birth to deformed babies test negative for the presence of the Zika Virus.
So, what is causing babies to be born with very small heads and brain damage? While researching my first book in 1987-8, AIDS INC., I concluded: don’t assume there is only one cause for illness. That can be very misleading. Various factors can combine to produce disease and death”
And below is the full link I really think it is worth thinking about if we are not constantly being diverted into ‘false fears’………………this applies and is of interest of course ”in the present’ but some thoughtful people would say a lot of this ‘false fear’ kind of goes back to the ‘holocaust’ as accepted by ‘main stream’ history and science with a huge and lurid exaggeration setting the template for MORE and more of those (lies). We are now in the middle of so many of those can we see ‘straight’ anymore?………………..not much imo.
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/zika-freakout-the-hoax-and-the-covert-op-continue/
Interesting stuff Sylvia. When you wrote about the Unabomber’s background I couldn’t help but think for a minute about my husband’s life. Different by a long stretch but similar too. B. was hospitalized from 18 mos.- 3years old for excema – yes excema and that is another story!
His parents did see him on weekends, but still at that age especially – what a deficit. His parents decided to move from England to Ireland for 6 years & B. was 12 when they relocated to Canada. He was put ahead 2 years in school! The social/emotional trauma of being with 14 year olds when you are only 12 was not considered as important as his cognitive prowess. It was horrible for him to endure high school being so different in age, academics, accent etc. How did he cope? How did he become the kind, loving, caring man he is…
B.was loved by his Dad and Granny in a true way.
Is that the difference? Not predisposed genetically and being loved by at least 1 person. Like a tree with really strong roots that can sway in the storms but has that foundation of support to keep it standing and growing.
So often it strikes me how simple it is – just so hard to actually have happen in our world today because of all the depraved backgrounds and tangled messes they/we create and re-create. Jack often emphasizes this – how not running/hiding from the feeling is the key – & I agree.
L.
Leslie – that rings a bell with me. I put down my ‘strength’ such as it is to the fact I was ‘farmed out’ to my Grandparents from about the age of 2 to 3.5. I ‘remember’ their love to this day (tears) and what an ‘example’ it wast to me……………real love did and does exist…………..if it was not for that things would have been a lot worse. In another way though it put me at odds with things in general which you say see lasts to this day…………….I took the message that real love and real truth is usually hidden and not much to be found in the ‘real world’……………
Yes, Leslie, thank goodness for those who cared about us to keep us connected to ourselves and know love.
S
Yes Leslie, I remember one group in Santa Barbara where Vivian was asked if Primal Therapy can help anyone and she said, and I paraphrase: As long as someone loved you then there is hope. Those who were never loved by anyone cannot be helped.
So, we should never underestimate the power of ;love no matter where it comes from, and we should always continue to love no matter how futile it seems or how remote it’s potential effects.
Love is the great transducer of all feelings; it is what gave me the opportunity to heal and face the horror of my childhood. Once again, thank you to those who loved me while I was in Los Angeles on my healing journey.
> Phil,
> great idea, I am curious as to the possible reply.
> I am amazed to learn how in many disorders, the brain is actually really structurally different, and often continuously changing still .
> with schizofrenia it apppears the grey matter layer is thinner, and during the course of the disease the ventricles get larger.
> with other disorders like bipolar or unipolar depression there is an increasing atrophy of important structures like the hippocampus and frontal lobes, and often the limbic system also gets affected more and more if the disease, or disorder becomes chronicle, then the atrophy worsens to cause cognitive problems as well.
> it is intriguin as to where cause and result lay, as often science seems to regard mostly the physical biological aspects as being causal, while in some cases they probably are, specially when there is a large genetic influence, but from the primal point of view, the ongoing tension of unconnected feelings and their stressful influence are probably also a major cause of unhealthy and damaging influence in the long run.
> it would be interesting to unravel the scientific outcomes and compare the data of people with similar levels of depression and compare two groups of which one group would go into their emotions/feelings and start processing them, with a group just taking antidepressants and a group not being treated for example.
> there seems to be, at least in my textbooks, not much attention for early influences of stress, like childhood pain, while there is some attention for present environmental influences like relations or work.
> all the ideas that go through my mind though would need large groups of patients to examine and it will certainly never be possible for me, but it is nice to start forming ideas about what might be interesting and possible.
> it is not so much for needing proof for the usefullness of primal therapy, as I know how much benefit I get from it, but it would be nice to find a link of common interest between cognitive neuropsychology and the primal discoveries, and to help in giving it the credits it deserves.
> just as a subject of reflection it is already stimulating..
> M
Guru – sorry I am making up for a week away here, you sort of implied to Margaret that my talking about 9/11 was somehow meant to ‘get at’ you. I want to tell you nothing could be further from the truth my (recent) interest in 9/11 has NOTHING to do with you I am even amazed you would make such a ‘connection’. I mean I accept to you there is a connection to vast amounts of death etc. but anyway I want to re-assure you nothing was meant by me.
I also notice you said rather weakly to Margaret you remember ‘something’ about how somehow goaded you as regards your Mom’s death. This does not sound like you Guru you memory from all I have seen here is sharp and very good. All of a sudden you remember ‘something’ esp in regards to something that is so important to you. Really………….??
As for Margaret and I may have missed it as I tend to more ‘scan’ your posts I have not seen any ‘explanation’ of what I called your fictitious memory. Call it my ‘fighting Irish’ or whatever but I don’t want to just let you get away with that. This to me is the kind of sloppiness that well becomes MORE and more ‘sloppy’ and if we are talking about stuff that happened 70 years ago holocaust who cares………………we can’t even be ‘accurate’ right here right now. I am not fooled Margaret by your standardized and politically (and primally) correct attitudes………….
Patrick: I don’t find this matter very important. It felt to me at the time I brought this up (1-2 weeks ago) that people wanted more detail, so I obliged. The reference to the earlier discussions with Margaret date al the way back to 2014-early 2015. Just not enough time nor worth the effort to painstakingly research “he said/she said on the blog” from that long ago, especially if not indicative of a recurring pattern of belief. Lets……let this one go, OK?
OK
STILL ‘catching up’ here Gretchen wrote this in relation to me
“Suppose we had several members of the community who had family members murdered with guns. Someone comes on the blog and says ” that’s a lie, guns don’t kill., Guns are made of licorice and they are used at amusement parks to shoot candy into the air for the amusement of all. Anyone who says people have died as a result of guns is deluded, I know the truth and your personal experience and losses are meaningless.” . Suppose this was repeated endlessly, then yes I would allow the candy man to say his view but at some point I would say enough. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Gretch”
That to me is so WEAK Gretchen…………….meanwhile I don’t see you reading any books or ‘educating’ yourself. Oh I forgot you know it all already and even the future is really just some mirror of the past it has all been ‘settled’ and it is all so ‘obvious’ Not by a long shot it isn’t and sometimes the ‘truth’ takes a long time to come out as you should know. I really don’t like your cheap shots at me the above being an example. I can refer you to several good books if you want to be ‘enlightened’ which somehow I don’t feel you do (to be enlightened)………………
> Patrick,
> the only part that made sense to me in your comment was the one about the ‘distant’ feeling of wanting to be obnoxious. worth exploring but requires courage and strength and your idea of weak and strong is very distorted I am afraid.
> and of course words like mainstream and conventional are automatically negative to you, they do not fit into your pattern so just ignore all the truths they contain and go for the controversial stuff even if it is clearly pretty crazy.
> your choice but I won’t respond on it anymore unless I feel like doing so just to ventilate for myself.
> M
As usual Margaret the ‘only’ part that made sense to you is to shoe horn me into some ‘old feeling’ I am NOT discounting that but when that becomes the ONLY approach that is a sad and useless place to have reached…………….I feel sorry for you ………………and you are not the only one when ‘ideology’ like that takes over the results are predictable. See them all around………………take away the ‘validity’ of just basic ‘free thinking’ and this is what you are left with……………
So I’m “candy man” ………………to me Gretchen you are “candy woman”…………………as Fox News says “YOU” decide”………………..
i am so pissed. sorry just trying not to say to that cnt to her face. she has her secret bank account and she is buying whatever she pleases. makeup flowers knicknacs whatever. i suggested she get a parttime job because we really have more bills than income, but she says she took too many classes tryiing to get her b.a. degree and does not have the time. well great, then stop fucking spending money bitch. she wants a joint session with bb for what reason? so she can spend the little money i have for my therapy, so she can ask me why i am not attracted to her and why i am mean to her and why dont i like her, even though i have told her that most of that is about the carelessness with which she treats money. gfy dumbass bitch. so she can have bb tell her for the hundreth time that her treatment of money is not good, and for her to lie and say she is better with money, when i see the same old behavior that has not changed for the 40 years of our fuicking marriage.
Steve Martin once had a Primal on the Johnny Carson show right around the time he was filming The Jerk:
That’s a good one Guru. (How do you find these things? I wonder what year that was?……….it for sure was around the time Janov’s ‘influence’ was at it’s peak. 1970-73 estimating.
The exact date is right on the YouTube clip. It was right when The Jerk was being filmed and Steve Martin was considered by some to be at his comedic peak.
Notice Johnny Carson was putting out a cigarette right at his desk there, too. You could see the faint wisps of smoke.
Phil – this is for you but of course for anyone else interested also. So Phil before you start talking about “Zika virus titer” or words like that check this out. I remember your talk about ‘measles titer’ which was meant to explain so much I don’t think it explains anything much at all
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/31/busted-25000-cases-of-microcephaly-in-the-us-per-year/
Patrick,
I would go with what the CDC put out about the Zika virus over this guy Rappoport.
http://www.cdc.gov/zika/
Here’s what I found on Jon Rappoport from the Encyclopedia of American loons:
Jon Rappoport is a deliriously insane “independent researcher” and blogger. According to his bio, he “has lectured extensively all over the US on the question: Who runs the world and what can we do about it?” For the last decade, however, he has “operated largely away from the mainstream” because, as he puts it, “[m]y research was not friendly to the conventional media.” Indeed. His independent research encompasses “deep politics, conspiracies, alternative health, the potential of the human imagination, mind control, the medical cartel, symbology, and solutions to the takeover of the planet by hidden elites.”
He is, for instance, a germ theory denialist, and in his post “Germ theory and depopulation” (discussed here) he argues that “[i]n general, so-called contagious diseases are caused, not by germs, but by IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT ARE TOO WEAK TO FIGHT OFF THOSE GERMS” (yes, the capitalization is in the original). Indeed, “GERMS ARE A COVER STORY. What do they cover up? The fact that immune systems are the more basic target for depopulation and debilitation of populations.” The main tool is of course vaccines, which are weapons the nefarious powers that be use to kill off, well, it is a bit hard to see, partially because Rappoport’s post is mostly all-caps from there. At least HIV is a cover story as well.
He has a similar screed on flu vaccines on whale.to if that’s the kind of stuff you fancy reading. It is barely grammatical, but at least he gets his enthusiastic anger across rather well.
Currently Rappoport seems to write on various topics for InfoWars. Recently, for instance, Rappoport and InfoWars dubbed Rep. Tim Murphy’s bill seeking to reform the way the government addresses mental health services a “diabolical legislative package,” since Rappoport thought the legislation would require almost all children to take “psychiatric meds,” and that the bill will ultimately give the federal government “a monopoly of the mind.” Yeah, that’s the way he rolls.
Diagnosis: Hysterically crazy; and his influence is probably not quite as limited as his level of crazy should suggest.
Posted by G.D. at 10:26 AM
What I see about Jon Rappoport is that he denies not only HIV causing AIDS but apparently also the whole germ theory of disease. The germ theory of disease, of course, is no theory and hasn’t been for many years.
Phil
.
Phil – NO he DOES NOT!!. Jesus what are you trying to do be like some paid propagandist? You are just the kind of I don’t want to be insulting so I will call you ‘person’ who is un-fortunately these days paraded on TV as some kind of ‘expert’. Which you are NOT not even close you don’t even exhibit ‘common sense’ let alone expertise of any kind. READ his thing this morning here again about Zika. He IS an ‘expert’ or as close as you are likely to find. As I say READ this and weep weep for how un-informed and superficial your ‘thoughts’; are. Jeez Phil I thought for a minute you were getting better I DID like your description of me but now you seem to have lapsed again. Maybe it’s just some ‘old feeling’ you can’t seem to get to grips with lol
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/zika-mega-powers-best-friend-the-virus/
Patrick,
I read that and it didn’t change a thing for me.
Here’s Rappoport’s article denying germ theory:
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/germ-theory-and-depopulation/
But with this I’m letting it go as it’s a waste of time.
Phil
Phil – I just read the first sentence of your link. He says “I want to straighten out the thinking of many people who look at germs as the primary vehicle for reducing the global population” Phil did you notice the word ‘primary’ in that sentence. You might as well ‘let it go’ as you have sort of showed again you are talking nonsense. So you might as well ‘run away’………….
> Patrick, before I read the truckload of comments Ifind this morning, one reaction to what you said about ‘free thinking’.
> if anyone is not free in his thinking here it is you, as all the directions you take are narrowed down by whatever drives you into controversy and being obnoxious.
> it colours all your so called explorations, thoughts and emotions and convictions.
> not what I would call freedom of thought at all, rather the opposite.
> M
Margaret – maybe better to try to keep to specifics we won’t agree anytime soon about ‘big picture’ kind of things. But I am still wondering about your what I call ‘fictitious memory’ where you ‘remembered’ me taunting or insulting Guru about his Mom’s death. Maybe you have referred to it somewhere in the last week or so but I have not seen it. It’s OK if you don’t remember specifics just be as honest as you can you can even say you just blew something out of your head because you were feeling bad. Whatever………….just be honest come on now you can do it…………..since Patrick thinks we probably did not go to the moon he should be pretty understanding he is usually cool about someone making a mistake……………..
> ha, another reaction I want to post here on your reply to phil, you boast Patrick, to be the only one with an ‘open’ mind, the only one ‘investigating’, haha, sorry, all you do in your socalled investigating is look up more ‘proof’ for those wacked ideas in the same wacked corner , from the same authors.
> real investigating would include also studying what knowledge exists in all areas, including what you look down on as ‘conventional’, the area where the majority of experts and scientists study on and deepen their findings.
> it is pretty ridiculous you seriously expect us to go along with your open minded investigations about let’s say noone ever travelled to the moon.
> lunatic is a word that comes to mind.
>
> if you stay much longer on this track possibly your brain gets permanently deformed and stuck forever in this loop.
> that is sad really.
> M
Phil, going through the comments I notice you have worded much better than me what I tried to say!
> M
Margaret,
I like what you say.
Phil
Margaret,
I like what you’ve said and how you worded it.
Phil
I assume, Patrick, that you traveled to the US by plane. I wonder if the plane you took was designed and built by engineers who relied on the established research methods of science, including standard textbooks and peer reviews, or whether you opted for a plane designed by controversial and ‘open-minded’ engineers. And likewise, if you ever get a heart attack, or just fall from a ladder, or happen to be in a car crash, will your life be saved by paramedics in an ambulance and physicians in an emergency room that are all (paramedics, ambulance, physicians) products of such textbooks and peer reviews, or would you put your life in the hands of a Kollerstrom type physician?
Although the study of history is not as exact as that of medicine or engineering, still the same rigor and rationality and a research method is applied. I can take you through each and every point you make regarding the Holocaust and show why it is a lie you only too willingly succumbed to. But as others have said, it’s not the truth you’re after. You will always have at your disposal a bespoke conspiracy theory that will taint and discredit each piece of evidence, each testimony – even by the perpetrators themselves.
But, although it is useless to try and convert you to reason and decency in this matter your words cannot be left unanswered, because silence would mean acceptance of what now appears in writing for all to see.
So I’d like to start with my own grandmother. She was picked up in Brussels and taken to the assembly camp Dossin in Mechelen. On 26 September 1942 she was transported as number 1317 to Auschwitz in transport No. 11. That transport, the 11th of 27 from Belgium, was made up of 1,742 deportees, 562 men and 949 women. Among them were 467 children under the age of 15, the youngest of which was Beno Peterfeund who was 9 months old. Upon arrival in Auschwitz the SS selected 344 deportees as fit for work. The 286 men were given numbers 66,070 to 66,355 while the 58 women selected were given numbers 21,034 to 21,091. Those numbers were tattooed on their arm. The rest –1,398 people, my grandmother and Beno included – were executed immediately in the gas chambers. By the way, her name was Else, she was 54 years old.
Ever wondered what happened to all those who like my grandmother or Beno arrived at Auschwitz but were deemed not fit to work, those who were never listed and issued numbers that were tattooed on their arm? Not one of them ever came back, not a single person survived. And we’re talking about hundreds of trainloads over weeks, months and years.
Treblinka was even worse, because it wasn’t a part forced labor camp as Auschwitz was but an extermination one alone. Since you’ve done extensive reading on Treblinka I’m sure you’re familiar with Irmfried Eberl, the first camp commandant, a Psychiatrist fresh from Germany’s T4 (euthanasia) program. (The methodical killings, including by gas vans, began with German victims in institutions – the mentally handicapped, invalids, etc.).
Now why would they need a euthanasia expert, along with his T4 staff, in Treblinka? I’m also sure you are familiar with some of the testimonies about him and his tenure at Treblinka, as well as the circumstances of his dismissal and replacement by Franz Stangl (if not you can consult the Wikipedia Treblinka page, it has a pretty good summary). I’m positive you’re familiar with Stangl’s testimony during his own trial and the extensive interview he gave to a British historian in 1971, where he testifies to, draws and chronicles the mass murders.
I know your thoroughness didn’t allow you to pass by testimonies from the soviets who arrived at the scene and found that field you mentioned strewn with small pieces of bone in the soil, human teeth and lumps of human hair, among other things, and the road leading to the camp pitch black from all the human ashes that was strewn about. Nor the recent excavations by a British team from Staffordshire University that found mass graves and other findings, including some physical evidence from the gas chambers themselves.
Enough about that. Ironically, as practically everybody here feels, your ideas say nothing about actual matters of history but everything about yourself. Also, you keep on doing damage to yourself by all this paranoid talk, speaking of open mindedness while displaying a mind completely shut. Now why do you need that?
Instead of just raising the question I’d like to try a partial answer: You want people to tell you to go to Hell so you can have a temporary respite, however brief, from the personal certitude that you’re already there.
Daniel,
I also feel very moved about what you have written here about the fate of your grandmother and everything else.
Phil
Daniel – Thank you! Please stay.
L
> Daniel, great comment, thanks.
> it really touched me as what you wrote about did happen very close to where I live, and even though I was not born yet I feel like apologizing for the behaviour of the people who informed the Germans or Belgian fascists about your family.
> I am very very sorry.
>
> and Patrick, this is so petty and trivial in comparison, but you do clearly judge me by your own standards accusing me of saying whatever, something I made up, to you just for feeling bad.
> that is nothing that would ever even occur to me.
> I remember how it struck me as very insensitive at least, if not more than that, a long time ago when UG had been talking about some personal stuff, that you suddenly posted a joke about a car crash , as UG remembered better than me, something with a race car.
> I did ask him back then if he didn’t feel hurt by that.
> and that’s it, it just came up again in its own context with a comment of UG lately, which surprised me, and that’s it.
>
> you use the expert argument to defend Rapaport but then suddenly expertise has no value for the hundreds of thousands of other scientists, and you as a non-expert of course have a much better judgment about these medical matters than a medically schooled guy like Phil.
>
> you are really so out of line with your arrogance, it does remind me of a balloon filled with air, which might blow up or get pinched one day and then be nothing but shreds.
>
> you always discarrd whatever people try to point out to you as the heart of the matter, in your struggles, and what you referred to as wanting to be obnoxious, as an unimportant detail, well, I wish you could hear this as I say it out of true concern it does matter a lot as it might spoil the rest of your life and even drive you over the edge somehow.
> everyone here has been very patient with you, and suportive but well, you definitely do not seem to pursue the truth but only seem to chase some profiling like the ‘misunderstood wise victim who meant well but was too smart for all those dummies’..
> or something similar, it is getting very repetitive really, if you aim at impressing people with your smartness you completely miss that goal as yawning is more likely to be what you will get.
> and a number of taps on the delete button.
> M,
Just to clear up this one point, from what I see Jon Rappoport is a journalist with a B.A. degree in philosophy. No expertise on viruses, vaccines, and science etc. His main expertise seems to writing crazy stuff which gets him some following, especially among fans of conspiracy theories.
http://aidswiki.net/index.php/Jon_Rappoport
Phil
Patrick,
Why don’t you just direct all of your thoughts to conspiracy type blogs?. I am doubtful anyone here has an interest in any of this; I know I don’t; It is all so tiresome and disturbing.
Phil
Thank you, Margaret and Phil.
No need to apologize M, this was done by other people at another time. By the way, in Belgium the spontaneous reaction of the population and the actions of the Belgian resistance movements helped to save many Jews. Surprisingly, though under Nazi rule that issued the same decrees to gather and deport the Jews as it did in other occupied countries, about half the Jewish population survived.
About 25,000 Jews were hidden in wide-ranging rescue operations carried out by ordinary Belgians and the various resistance organisations. This wave of charity and sympathy was very uncommon in other countries, including neighboring Holland, that for some reason is considered to have been more helpful toward the Jews.
> Phil,
> much harder to be obnoxious there.
> specially if they only listen when you agree for example.
> there must be something in the confrontations itself Patrick must be seeking.
> he could find out if only he’d let go of this senseless catch 22 like behavior.
>
> but something seems to be very compelling in all of this.
> M
> come to think of it it reminds me of a kid jumping up and down going na na nana na, whose only way to get some attention is to misbehave.
> M
> maybe this blog is also more atttractive as being ‘the outsider’ is the goal, as some form of identity.
> only Patrick can tell..
> M
> Daniel,
> that’s good to hear.
> my own dad was taken prisoner of war and had to go work in Germany for several years.
> when he finally came back home his girlfriend had gone off with someone else.
> a small detail in the big picture but I think for him it was a hard blow.
>
> war is so incredibly senseless and crazy.
> specially using religion as an excuse seems beyond reason.
>
> I wonder if ever there will be a peaceful and stable kind of social structure that allows people worldwide to have a good life, and with the necessary respect for the environment and our fellow creatures on this small and beautiful planet, that is also fragile..
> i am afraid there will be a lot of destruction before we might make the necessary shift of mindset. if ever we do, cause if the rich and powerful don’t it will be of little use.
>
> in the meantime all we can do is our best, isn’t it?
> M
Daniel, I have struggled a bit with what to say in response to your story. I think it is because it is just unimaginable, it can’t really be processed. I can only guess at the impact on you and your family. I’m just glad you were able to talk about it here. Gretchen
Sylvia, I just wanted to tell you how glad I am for your presence and feedback on the blog. After all you don’t know any of us so it’s a bit of a leap of faith. I’m happy you are here. Gretch
Lastly….Guru, sometimes I think you are very brave. Gretchen
> I wonder if Rapaport practices active disinformation in order to get attention.
> it is commonly known microcephalia can be caused as well by toxoplasmosis, rubella, alcohol during pregnancy and probably some other causes.
> this does not exclude the virus spread by the mosquitos could also be a major cause of microcephalia.
> scientists admit openly there is yet no 100 percent certainty about it, only more and more indicative evidence.
> it is actually very positive the international health organisation managed this time to draw attention to the danger as soon as possible and thereby frees a lot of funds for research for a cure and prevention.
> so hey, yes, there are more cases of microcephalia, that is a known fact, no uncovered hidden reality..
> sigh..
> M
Margaret, I agree and think it’s a good thing that the authorities are taking the Zika virus seriously and urging people to take precautions. What I have read is no conclusion has been made that it is causing the additional cases of microcephalia, it is just thought to be a strong possibility.
I look at a list of articles Rapopport has written and all of them are related to conspiracies. That’s what he does and what his audience wants.
Phil
Apparently that conspiracy is that Zika virus would be part of a plot to introduce another new vaccine. Vaccines will be used to depopulate the world, rather then introduced genetically modified pathogenic microorganisms. Microorganisms don’t actually cause diseases, they are just a manufactured reason for designing poisonous vaccines.
Phil
Phil and Margaret – to maybe quote Jack (with approval) there is a lot of ‘crooked thinking’ going on here. And by me too I would say in that we are all talking generalities. I have met Jon Rappoport at a talk here and like anyone he is not perfect. Personally I did not find him that impressive. BUT he does know a lot about these subjects and Phil especially you I feel engage in total ‘cheap shots’.You have said yourself you do not like your job……………..which I can understand as you seem to be living is some lifeless bloodless thoughtless universe. You seem to hate ‘medicine’ as I could understand yet you ‘defend’ it against a thoughtful and refreshing voice like Rappoport. Sometimes I feel like saying to you “Pull your head out”
My feeling about it is………………..we are in-undated by FEAR. FEAR of ‘terrorists’ fear of viruses and it seems to be mostly all bogus. But with a purpose, more snooping, more surveillance, more vaccines more bogus drugs. So fine if that’s the future you want a slave people fearful about everything with a childish black and white version of everything history included. Well that’s not so much a future it is already a reality. Just read here and led by Gretchen’s ‘cheer leading’…………….
…………..a from of ‘micro-cephaly’ you might say and I don’t think is has much of anything to do with Zika at all as far as we can tell. Thought let some ‘experts’ on it they might well find a bit of Zika somewhere. Anyone want to get ‘tested’………….
Well, I might as well finish the story. This whole thing is masterminded by the Jewish elite who control the world’s financial institutions. They solidified their hold on power through the hoax of the Holocaust. Things would have turned out more favorably if only the Nazis had won WWII. It’s a sad state of affairs that the gullible masses of the world willingly submit themselves to vaccine injections which actually weaken their immune systems and bodies rather than strengthen them. The Jews, I guess, are planning to depopulate the world leaving themselves in the majority. This would also have the added benefit of reducing the threat of climate change.
However, a very small minority of observers are on to all of this and fighting to uncover these conspiracies. What I think is that this is too little and too late. Ideally Batman would step in and set everything right.
Phil
Phil – you seem to be ‘wising up’ in your old age lol……………..
Hey, Phil. Sounds like you are on your way to a graphic novel for ‘skinheads’. Good imagination.
Thank you Gretchen, I am thankful to be accepted here.
S
Sylvia,
Of course this would be “bizzaro” Batman in the novel, but I think it could work.
Phil
Daniel – I am sorry to hear about your personal losses of course. But here again and pretty much always one side of the story is being told. Here is a passage from David irving’s book about the war and keep in mind this is Hamburg not very far from Belgium and in 1943 maybe right around the same time as what you are talking about
“During the nights that followed, Hamburg suffered three more
catastrophic RAF attacks. In one, an immense firestorm began, the huge
fires creating hurricane-strength winds that sucked trees, rooftops, debris,
and people into their flames. The tens of thousands sheltering in the massive
concrete bunkers were incinerated alive. Nearly fifty thousand people
were killed in this one city, Hamburg, during this last July week of terror in
. On August Speer dismally predicted to Hitler that if six more cities
were given the same treatment, the war would be over.
Hitler ordered the women and children moved out of the Reich capital
at once. Under the determined command of its gauleiter Dr. Goebbels,
Berlin was evacuated of one million civilians in grim anticipation of the
raids to come. On August the American bombing of Wiener Neustadt
resulted in a four-hour row between Hitler and Jeschonnek. Four days later
the Americans bombed the ball-bearing works at Schweinfurt and Messerschmitt’s
plant at Regensburg. That night the British saturated Peenemünde
with bombs, killing seven hundred of their best missile scientists and slave
labourers. Jeschonnek committed suicide, shooting himself the next morning…………..”
This is an almost 1,000 page book and trust me there is a lot worse in it. Of course people might say Germany started the war well actually they didn’t in the sense it WAS Britain and France who declared war on Germany because of Poland. Anyway this is not a history forum but my point is this selective sorrow only crates more problems. war is Hell and it is Madness……………but to take the message that one side was uniquely bad and the other a helpless victim is actually the recipe for MORE wars. And so it has turned out this ‘message’ and the ‘wrong’ one IMO has and is leading to more and more wars. To insist one side is the victim and the other just the aggressor leads exactly to that…………….more wars
Not to get too picky……………your description of what happened at Auschwitz in un-provable by definition you could say. About ‘gas chambers’ I am pretty much convinced they were a physical impossibility so there is a big doubt there. Gas was used for de-lousing clothes actually an attempt to save lives.”Gas vans” it seems are a Soviet made up story though they had them themselves it seems. There is huge Soviet lying and the interesting thing pretty much everything they accused the Germans of they had already being doing themselves. They KNEW what all that was about……………unlike the Germans mostly. The Nirenberg Trials were really an extension of Russian ‘show trials’ from the ’30’s prettied up with some British/US propaganda. The Russians DID have ‘death camps’ and of their own people they knew exactly what to accuse the Germans of. .As I say this is not a history forum but if you want to know more read Germar Rudolp’s book. A lot of the ‘war atrocity propaganda’ is just Soviet propaganda a totally un-reliable source. Lying was official and practical policy of the Soviets which also by the way had a very strong Jewish influence. A lot of historians consider the Communist take over of Russia really a Jewish take over and it seems that is pretty much true.
The British are no slouches when it comes to ‘propaganda’ either most of the scenes of emaciated bodies in the camps are actually a result of their bombing not any deliberate attempt by the Germans to starve the people. But again all of this is twisted around is some kind of one sided fairy tale. Anyway this is making me no friends here but Daniel you have always struck me as a serious and thoughtful person if you REALLY want to study this I would recommend an anthology of about 20 different writers from all over Europe Swiss, Austrian, German, French,Dutch Italian etc it is edited by Germar Rudolp called “Dissecting the Holocaust” It is very serious and thorough history and covers many different aspects. To me any kind of understanding might start there and I would recommend to Gretchen also as she seems in danger here of just leading an Amen Corner and relying on well known emotional tropes and manipulation.
I am sure the suffering of the Jews in the war can feel worse in that there is a degree of being picked out and shamed as well as death and terrible hurt there is a psychological dimension. That for sure is painful and in a way they suffer twice say like Belgium is taken over and then they are picked on even after that. It is like ‘bullying’ on a super large scale but and this is NOT to blame them but if people insist on being apart, on being special if you like or being a “Chosen People” well that does piss people off. I even mentioned this when I was in Ireland about my own family they/we insisted on being apart and suffered terribly for it. It seems I am still doing it.
> patrick,
> you are really losing touch with reality.
> pretty crazy in other words.
> M
> haha, well, maybe we have a Madman here instead of a Batman.
> would sound dangerous if it would not be so crazy that it can only be a paranoid minority flocking togehter, probably joining the White Supremacy and Arian wackos.
> boy, it is kind of nauseating really.
> M
No Margaret to me YOU are ‘nauseating’ I am not saying anything remarkable just that history is not some kind of black and white game or charade. If that is judged to be ‘insane’ I don’t know what to say. To re-assure you I have rarely FELT so sane………….whether that is based on anything I will leave up to you and your tests lol. Test me for Zika maybe you will find my head is shrinking…………………but isn’t that what therapists are anyway ……………… headshrinkers…………………….come to think of it they might be more effective just give their patients a dash of Zika and viola instant ‘head shrink’…………………..now before anyone freaks out I am just playing with words the Irish are like that. As I say before James Joyce used to call Freud Sickmind Fraud so why can’t I play in the same way lol……………..Jeez Margaret ‘chill out’ a bit…………..
David Irving is a known neo nazi and Holocaust denier who in fact tried and failed to form his own neo nazi group known as Focus. He was found to have knowingly misrepresented the truth on numerous occasions and is not considered to be a credible historian. That is who you are quoting. He believed he had a mystical connection to Hitler.
Should I even bother to write to an ‘anonymous’ probably not…………but my ‘judgement’ is not so great sometimes. Well (surprise surprise) I very much disagree with you. It depends who you listen to of course but from what I know you are totally wrong is what you are saying. He is known for his incredible care with documents – even most of his critics admit that – and even un-covered several ‘hoaxes’ ‘Hitler diaries’ etc that were published in the English papers and he proved them to be forgeries.
From what I know he is very scrupulous and serious. If anything it seems he was too much ‘taken in’ by the holocaust stories. It is recognized now he believed them too much as quite a lot of new evidence has come out from British de-crypts released in the ’90s and also a lot of Soviet records came out after the USSR collapsed. All pretty much shooting more and more ‘holes’ in the story. But I understand ‘holocaust belief’ is really a religion and any ‘evidence’ is not likely to change that. The nature of a ‘religion’
For all that he did spend time in jail in Austria! Can you imagine say here in the US a historian no matter how good or bad say being jailed for maybe saying the native people here brought it all on themselves OR saying the complete opposite – say the white people were genocidal racists (sort of ‘true’ imo). But the point is not to decide what is ‘true’ on not but to put someone in jail for EITHER point of view. That should tell you something is very wrong with the story.
About a ‘mystical connection with Hitler’ I have tried to look it up but can’t find it even on the internet but even if he said something like that that is such a cheap shot imo………….I mean if you were to write a 1,000 page book about someone you might feel something like that too but in any case I can’t even find where he is supposed to have said that.
I don’t like ‘anonymous’ stuff there is nothing for you to be ‘;afraid’ of you will get all the support in the world here for the most part. Of course it happens sometimes, it has happened to me but I always feel to need to make it clear right away that it was me. You don’t seemingly which well I don’t like just my take. You can still ‘say’ who you are of course if this kind of topic if anyone should be ‘anonymous’ it should be me and really I should keep away from it as I know people can get real vindictive and upset about this. It is after about the only ‘religion’ of our times and about the only one a person can be ‘persecuted’ and go to jail about. But as I say my ‘judgement’ is not so good sometimes………..’holocaust’ investigators forget ‘deniers’ are treated just about like witches during the Inquisition it seems……………and we are really no further ahead than n those days in many ways we are worse and more deluded
Also I notice you say nothing about the actual bombing of Hamburg (and there more and worse ones) but I remember like 5 years ago seeing a documentary on PBS about the bombing of Hamburg and honestly I was shocked at the appalling cruelty of it I really didn’t know all of this stuff it is not published very much and actually I think it was that that started me thinking a little bit about this subject. BTW I was a bit surprised also that it seems the British were ‘worse’ than the US. US wanted to at least try to hit ‘military’ type targets like railways, ports etc. The British ‘inspired’ Churchill had no problem at all just bombing the hell of of civilian areas and did so seemingly with no conscience. I suppose he felt justified because of the German bombing of London……………but even that was a response by the Germans to try to stop the British from bombing Berlin. The Brits STARTED the bombing of civilian cities and never let up with truly appalling effects in Dresden but many other cities too. I don’t know why I waste my time even talking about all this it is well known by anyone who looks into it but is hardly known at all among people in general. The Brits also bombed the railways stranding and starving the people in the camps and then were SHOCKED!! when they found people starved to death there. They need not have been and then of course ‘war propaganda’ swung into gear. It was all the Germans fault the Russians even worse in the ‘lying’ department. The Jews were of course mistreated being dragged from where you live to work camps can’t be very good but also the Jews were more than eager to capitalize on the propaganda of the Allies they after all had Israel to establish. It made chasing the people who had lived there forever away from their homes more acceptable it seemed. Something than has never \stopped since and will go on and on. Europe can look forward to refuges for years and years and the “Greater Israel” will get bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger so they hope at least. And I would not ‘bet’ against them they usually do get their way. Like here the ‘election’ is now in the news one thing you can be sure of whoever is ‘elected’ will be a President for Israel whatever his/her stripes of colors. Blue or red – same difference
Patrick: these last two comments of yours seem to me to be more than a little confusing in terms of what you are feeling and what the expression of that feeling is. In otherwords is there a purpose for you to be into all this? If so I did not garner it from either of these comments.
First off, my feelings on some of the matters you have brought up. The first one was the word “Gay” in referernce to male homosexuals. I had and still have pause about that particular word since it implies we homosexuals live a joyous and happy life. As I see it, not true. It’s an arduous journey for most of us growing up and for many, they commit suicide rather than face a life being homosexual. I personally did not go through that phase. (another story)
The second thing you go on about is the British both before, during and after each of the world wars. I am for the most part in agreement about a lot of it. Quickly, for me, my father was always on at me to “BE PROUD” to be British. I responded to him with the ‘smarty pants’ remark; “why! does that mean the Germans should be asahamed of themselves”? I am wary of both words:- Pride and shame. They are attitudes stemming from something, usually deeper within us. I also hate with a passion the PBS/BBC “Downton Abbey” For and to me, it is ALL that is fundamentally wrong with the British system. Jim my partner loves it.
On another issue of yours; the creating of a homeland for Jews at the end of W.W.II. I was never for taking land from another peoples (Palestine, were Jews had lived for centuries) How uncomfortable for those Jews living there, I have no idea. For any religious group needing a country from which to operate I feel is counter productive, and as I feel about it, did not resolve anything nor do I feel it will. Then the 1968 preemptive war to take more land: I felt was unjust. But the British and the American were sort of supporting it. I do know that there are some Jews that also are not that happy with the govenment of Israel.
How I see this whole human world is it is a fucking mess and as I see it it an’t gonna get any better. Guns and bombs to kill others with, Police to bully people they do not like. Militaries to kill others and take land, or some other spoils. Country boundaries artificially designated, leaving us captive to a bit of soil and supposed culture. Technology virtually disappearing up our own assholes, and worst of all child rearing pracrices that are depriving all of us, way before we can have any say in the matter. Finally: voting as a menas of picking winners; essencially leaving the other as losers. It’s all a farce in three acts. Why oh! why, can’t we all be winners. Life is so short and as Calvin (of Hobbs) suggests. “Life’s short … lets go nakend”
You and I have one thing in common. For the most part; most don’t even respond to us. Now there’s something I am thinking about.
Jack
Jack – it is not my intention to ‘pick’ on the Brits. Even Churchill has some good sides to him I would say, actually in dealing with Ireland’s independence post 1916 he does not seem to have been that bad also I think he had bigger things on his mind.
Also I will give the English their props very much for what I call ‘free thinking’ Even David Irving the historian we are talking about here is English and he was born in 1939 I think even remembers some of the German bombs dropping …………….and yet he gets outside of all that and writes what to me are great and empathetic (and very readable) books esp about the Germans. He has also written a book about Churchill which I might now read. You can down load them for free from his website.
Kollerstrom is also English…………to me a kind of classic in the ‘free thinker’ sweepstakes. I love his writing style just his whole way of thinking and talking. If I was in London I would definitely try to have a pint with him!
I have found another guy English again Andrew Johnson is his name. He really ‘promotes’ the work of this lady Dr Judy Wood about 9/11. I have ordered her book and I really think she has sort of solved it, what caused it etc. But this Andrew Johnson guy is very important in terms of even getting her work out.
What am I really saying? I guess I feel a bit mellower about yourself…………..in many ways you even fit into this kind of English ‘free thinker’. Personally I feel you let yourself be too dominated by Janov and might have maybe added to his ‘legacy’ rather than keeping sort of under his wing. But you do things for you own good reasons it is not for me to second guess………………..though I do lol.
Jack – you asked why do I do this…………….that’s a good question I suppose but I don’t or try not to as much as I can ‘question’ why I do things. I follow my interests which is new for me and actually a beautiful feeling. I literally am led from one thing to another and finally sort of feel I am doing what I was put on the earth for……………which for me and for me only is to wonder, read, question, find out and it feels great for the most part.
In terms of ‘therapy’ or whatever I think a major possible pitfall with primal is too much ‘questioning’ of my own motives or interests instead of just following them. Also it tends to be too ‘conscious’ it’s odd that a therapy that emphasizes the UN of SUB conscious actually ends up being kind of too ‘conscious’. Here is a link you may find too long it is rather a long story from this Sundays NY Times about ‘parrot therapy’ I say that rather jokingly but that essentially is what it is about. Contrast this with ‘talk therapy’ or even ‘feeling therapy’……………..the point is mostly we don’t know why we do things, why some things work and others don’t but to me at least the point is to LISTEN and FOLLOW. Primal in it’s attempt to ‘make the un-conscious conscious’ well to me gets too ‘conscious’ It’s like ‘trying to feel’ a major contradiction in terms.
For myself I have spent a few mostly wonderful months reading and finding out about lots and lots of history etc but I don’t think I will stay going on about this forever and ever. As far as the ‘holocaust’ goes I feel I am kind of done with it I have I feel a pretty good grasp on what went on and it’s like ……………………NEXT! What’s next well for sure something. At the moment I am waiting with great interest on Judy Wood’s book about 9/11 “Where did the Towers go?” I even got a Kindle and find it great for reading it is not tiring on the eyes at all. I got the most ‘primitive’ one no back light so I kind of mix and match with physical books and the kindle. People here may find me arrogant…………….I can be I suppose but it is more I am excited by what I am finding out I feel like talking about it. But I HAVE found the MOST upsetting thing for people is any perceived questioning of the holocaust so I am more careful in who I talk to and as I say it is something I feel is receding as some compelling interest but of course it is always there and I do tend to speak my mind for good and bad that I can’t control.
Here is the link about PTSD and parrots. I found it a wonderful story especially the part about the parrots
Yes, Jack. We have lost our small-town sense of simplicity and innocence. We are so competitive. I can hope for little pockets of reasonableness. Maybe in this crazy election swirl people are revved up. It doesn’t seem right that the government is pitted against itself with two opposing parties, always bickering and uncompromising. A family wouldn’t survive that way. Just some late night thoughts.
Patrick,
You say: ” David Irving is … is very scrupulous and serious”
Um, no. Wikipedia: “Irving’s reputation as a historian was further discredited when, in the course of an unsuccessful libel case he filed against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt andPenguin Books, he was shown to have deliberately misrepresented historical evidence in order to promote Holocaust denial. The English court found that Irving … “for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence”. In addition, the court found that Irving’s books had distorted the history of Adolf Hitler’s role in the Holocaust in order to depict Hitler in a favourable light”.
You say: “The Brits STARTED the bombing of civilian cities..”
Um, no. The first civilian city indiscriminately bombed in WW2 was Warsaw, by the Germans in 1939. Thousands died. The second civilian city indiscriminately bombed was Rotterdam, by the Germans in May 1940. Although Holland was easily subdued still the Germans carried out this bombing killing tens of thousands. The third was London along with other British cities, also by the Germans. Tens of thousands were killed there. The fourth was Hamburg, by the British in 1943.
In the years leading to WW2 the first civilian city indiscriminately bombed was Shanghai in China, by the Japanese in 1932. The second was Addis Ababa in Ethiopia, by the Italians in 1936. The third was Guernica in Spain, by the Germans in 1937 (it inspired Picasso’s famous painting).
Before that, the first civilian city indiscriminately bombed (By Zeppelin airships) was Liège in Belgium, by the Germans in 1914. Then Paris, and then some 50 air-raids against British cities, all by the Germans in 1915-1917.
You say: “The Brits also bombed the railways stranding and starving the people in the camps”.
Um, no. And somehow those industrious Nazis still managed to get millions of people into those camps, using the same railways.
You say: “‘gas chambers’ I am pretty much convinced they were a physical impossibility so there is a big doubt there. Gas was used for de-lousing clothes actually an attempt to save lives.”
Well, Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commandant, begs to differ. In prison, before his execution, he wrote an autobiography were he fully details and describes the annihilation process. It’s on Amazon. Most of his account was corroborated by other sources. But I’m sure you know better than he did.
You say: “… “Greater Israel” will get bigger and bigger..”
Um.. Israel’s area, including all occupied territories, 1970: 86,410 sq Km
Israel’s area, including all occupied territories, today: 26,410 sq Km.
Well, what can I say; they really succeeded in that one.
And regarding my Grandmother you say: ” But here again and pretty much always one side of the story is being told..”
You really don’t get it, do you? My grandmother was on the German side. She was a German citizen whose first husband fought for Germany and died for Germany in WW1. And the thanks she got from her own government was being stripped of all her rights, her entire family (my grandfather, his son, her parents, her uncles and their children – all of them German citizens) arrested and deported and murdered by that same government.
Daniel – your ‘standards’ are higher than most but I have some quibbles.. I wouldn’t take Wikipedia’s ‘opinion’ about anything that really mattered to me. It is classic ‘middle of the road’ and really just depends on who wrote it and if they accept it. Look it up about anything you REALLY care about or KNOW about and I think you will see what I mean. Anyone can say anything and they do………………I already read that today about David Irving and I though how average how lame………….
When I say the Brits started the bombing I was talking about the actual WW2. Poland was BEFORE the war and I have read in Irving’s book Hitler was very reluctant and I believe TRIED at least to do it for so called military or strategic reasons. Rotterdam was almost a ;’mistake’ he tried to recall the bombers but it was too late. But OK your knowledge of history I acknowledge my point and maybe I did not put it very well was the whole thing about bombing in WW2 for most people – certainly it was for me – associated with the Germans bombing London. What I read now Hitler was very reluctant to do it but Churchill constantly ‘upped the ante’ so to speak. Churchill seemed to have no qualms and in many ways to have been a true war-monger. He carried the bombing of civilians to an appalling level and it actually culminated with nuking Japan.
It is interesting that you bring up Rudolp Hoss the commander of Auchwitz.and what he said. Do you know he was tortured horrendously by the British including having his testicles crushed. He held out on telling them what they wanted for a long time but they broke him. I have read he was quite ‘proud’ of his camp, they did a lot of work, had a theatre, an orchestra, a swimming pool, art classes for the kids etc. He was a ‘good German’ and proud of his work. See this to me kind of gets to the nub of the argument. Nurnberg Trials were based on torture no question about it not only Hoss but many others see………….if you start from that point where do you think it will end up. This is one of the main points of Kollerstrom, Rudolp et al………………….the STARTING POINT for the post WW2 world is TORTURE……………..no two ways about it. So it is based on LIES and the LIE in then maintained and gets bigger and bigger and then maybe also very important paves the way for MORE lies. Do you think the modern world is based on much truth? I don’t not in any official level anyway. Most all of the constant wars are based on lies, WMD, new Hitlers everywhere HItler in the Balkans (Milosevic) HItler in Mesopotamia (Saddam) Hitlers in Libya committing genocide’ (NOT!) -0Gaddafi. The point is this ‘holocaust lie’ is the template for more and more wars and all based on un-truth like the original one.
About the size of Israel………………does anyone know – they refuse to say even where their borders are (the only country with the ‘balls’ to even try that) They go pretty much where they like in the ME. Smart Iranian scientists………….not a problem assassinate them from a motor-cycle. You also fudge the numbers there immediately after the 1967 the had all of the Sinai for a while so you have skewed the numbers there deliberately. That’s not so cool to do tricks like that imo. But there is no doubt that Israel is constantly pushing out the local people there it is constant and on-going and it seems now it goes into wrecking all the other countries in the area. That’s evil you are really talking Devil’s work now and it is also threatening to wreck Europe
I am sorry about your family. There is no doubt the Hitler regime went way to far with arresting Jews, deporting them etc.But I think we can all agree war is madness. As the ww2 went on it got worse and worse more and more brutal. People got brutalized in an unbelievable manner but from the German side they are losing they are being bombed to bits they desperately need slave labor in the camps for industrial production as all the men are at the front etc. The Jews were picked on that’s for sure. But even that in a weird way goes against the ‘gas chamber’ stories Hitler was desperate to keep his slave labor work force ALIVE to put all this energy into ‘gassing’ and something that is simply not feasible to do from a safety point and many more even for the Germans themselves. Hoss ran his camp like a ‘factory’ it was a factory in many ways exotic gassing I would say was the last thing on his mind …………….though after his testicles were crushed who knows what was on his mind. It is though what we have built so much on……………so much that need to be re-examined. The point of all this is not to blame the Jews it is for us all to see the stupidity of war and really think and feel how not to have more of them. Instead I think you might agree the ‘record’ of the Allies based on their ‘history’ of WW2 is not good. You judge things by their results no?
Wow: I am inspired to just jump in here AGAIN and add my two penuth (perceptive) to what I feel is really happening here. All wars are insidious for whatever reason, but that is not where the crux (cause if you like) stems from. Most of it is rooted in anger. Whether it is from a personal aspect or a collective one.
If only we were to understand the full context of feelings and their counterpart, expression, I feel there would be a better means to resolve them. In the case of anger I feel for me, I need to firstly own it, and then know how to express it. I personally don’t need to express my anger with the person that precipitated it within me. I can go off (preferably onto my bed and just say all I need to say and thrash a pillow or mattress, and then miraculously, for the most part, it is over and done with. I do believe this could be achieved on a collective level also.
I do find you Patrick particularly typical of the normal (neurotic) way of dealing with your angers. It seems to spiral into your truths and their lies. I personally would not find that resolves anything for me, and would just keep the resulting sensation reverberating in my body for eternity.
Not healthy, I figure. Incidentally I don’t see the Irish, or Ireland as being much different. the IRA were pretty brutal in their dealing (not without cause, of course)
I do confess that a great part of this was initiated to me by Jack Solomon (alias Werner Erhard of EST fame) where he stated that it was all effect effect … and not cause and effect.. The whole British thing goes all the way back to William the first (duke of Normandy) and even beyond that.
Jack
Jack – that way of dealing with your ‘anger’ seems so ’70’s or is it ’80’s (’70’s was primal box)……………..you seem a bit dated not that I am saying being up to date is any great shakes either. Time warp alert.
Jack, I do agree with your take about anger. If terrorists could connect to their mistreatment by their families then they wouldn’t have to take it out on someone else. Hate has its day one way or another.
It’s been said if such people had music in their life, which precipitates feeling, they wouldn’t be able to do those horrible things.
Another aspect about anger. It’s always good to get to the root of it, but for me it’s important not to have the same kind of person, unaccepting, judgmental, self-absorbed in my present either, making me angry because I would always be defending and feeling bad to boot.
S
Silvia: Agreed.
Jack
Horribly horribly sad. me. what are words for. do you hear me. do you care.
Aquarius. the water bearer. i forgot. sometimes i get more tears out of this month than i would have expected. or maybe my life is juist really really sad now. watched too many videos of the dead cat and dogs.
There is really no point arguing and debating someone who continually alters actual facts to serve his or her beliefs.
Phil
war sucks. england is certainly responsible for many atrocities, as is every fucking people/race on the planet (i think). if you know of a race that doesn’t kill another race, well, they have probably been extincted already. but the holocaust appears to me to have been the worse atrocity of all time.
z is baking sweet potatoes. i just burned my hand a little getting superheated pans out of the oven, that she did not take out for some reason. oven is smoking now. can i complain? no, now i dont have to go out in the cold and get her dinner and walk the dog. can you imagine being buried in a building that was bombed, such as 9/11 or dresden or london ww2? i cant. i remember a scene in some movie of where the germans were rounding up jews in france. some guy was standing around dazed with the trains behind him. a beautiful scene in that it completely showed the horror of what was going on at the right moment. beautiful is not the right word obviously but i dont have time to figure out what the word should be. maybe this is why so many people in the u.s. want to keep their guns. my dumbass kid number 2 lives in a marginal area and wants to buy a gun. I tried to dissauade him, especially since he now has 2 kids, but obviously he feels unsafe. i am wandering off the track here. so i stop.
> it seems a fine example of your openminded curious investigative mind, Patrick, to take a cheap shot at Wickipedia and he, surprise surprise, avoid to ‘investigate’ the very verifiable information about the court cases between Irving and among others Penguin Books.
>
> it seems to illustrate the truth does not interest you, nor the factual truth neither the feeling truth.
>
> there is a name for ujust following your impulses without reflecting.
> M
Why do people maintain beliefs which are contrary to facts? An example is “the flat earth society”
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php/about-the-society
There is all kinds of evidence that the earth is a sphere, but these people still deny that.
Not quite comparable to believing in god, since scientific instruments can’t rule out the existence of god.
What I think is there are some things which are facts. There is the evidence of the modern world around us, for example, which shows the power of science and technology, That is not a matter of opinion or a feeling.
Phil
Phil – maybe just look it up on wikipedia then you will know! If you are referring to whether on not the commander of Auchwitz Rudolp Hoss was tortured or not with some so called ‘flat earth’ theory you are more full of s… that I even imagined. On the former you are way to lazy to find out and you just lazily talk junk about flat earth etc
OK Margaret here is Wikipedia’s ‘authoritative’ it seems to you on primal therapy
Primal therapy has not achieved broad acceptance in mainstream psychology.It has been frequently criticized as lacking outcome studies to substantiate its effectiveness. It is regarded as one of the least creditable forms of psychotherapy[37] and has been classified in a 2006 APA Delphi poll as “discredited”.
Primal therapy has sometimes been dismissed as shallow, glib, simplistic, or trendy. It has also been criticized for not paying sufficient attention to transference Some researchers have suggested that primal therapy’s contention that adults can recall infantile experiences is empirically refuted. Primal therapy has also been rejected as dogmatic or overly reductionist.
In the book Let’s Talk About Me, Anthony Clare criticizes primal therapy in several ways. He claims that Janov sees confirming evidence everywhere: “Everything is taken as evidence of [the truth of Janov’s Pain Theory].” He claims that Janov has “no evidence” that childhood traumas cause adult neurosis, except for the “frenzied memories” of his patients
Now that you have read that Margaret do you continue taking s…. and you do constantly to me. That is wikipedia also I suppose now Phil should change his mind as anything so ‘middle of the road’ could not be wrong could it? When you don’t think for yourself you can be lead here there and everywhere………………….I was for a long time
Allied prosecutors submitted 3000 tons of evidence at the Nuremburg trials, check out this website.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007271
The prosecutors felt that the best evidence against Nazi war criminals was the evidence left by the Nazi German state itself. It included films the Nazi’s made themselves of atrocities committed.
It is a waste of time debating with someone who can’t differentiate a fact from a belief and who
spreads misinformation and outright lies.
Phil
You are such a mediocrity………………
Phil here is another one for you. I would challenge you to READ and THINK about what Rappoport is saying………………DON’T run to some website and try to find out his ‘qualifications’ or the ‘degrees’ he has and what someone else SAID about him. READ and THINK for YOURSELF please………………like I said I met this guy he is not my guru and he has his limitations like everyone else (including Janov) but I do believe he is VERY good on these kind of topics. He has lots of experience and has THOUGHT DEEPLY about it his ‘reputation’; on wikipedia should be of little concern. Reality does not boil down (yet) to how many likes you get on facebook or who says what about you on wikipedia
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/02/02/zika-biggest-news-service-in-america-absolutely-clueless/
What’s also interesting is that Nazi’s who got away didn’t dispute that these crimes were committed, they only tried to minimize their own involvement. It is only later Holocaust deniers who deny the whole thing, for apparent anti-Semitic reasons.
Phil
Phil – I explained to you a lot of them were TORTURED and more to the point maybe they were given a CHOICE………………how would you like this ‘choice’ either admit and of course try to blame your ‘superiors’ or face death (execution) yourself. How the fuck do you think people will ‘plead’. It was their ONLY choice and nothing to do with “Sopie’s Choice” that is Hollywood myth making. If you want more Hollywood myth making watch “Schindler’;s List” and the burning pyres of bodies which in the meantime (like the human gas chambers) has been proven to be a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.So the ‘story’ has to changed AGAIN now we hear of ‘gas vans’ roaming all over the Ukraine and Poland just looking for Jews to gas! This is horrible and crazy ‘script writing’. (Apparently there was such a thing as ‘gas vans’ but it was the Soviets who tried to develop and use them
Phil you mention so many tons of paperwork/evidence. They why the fuck do they need to TORTURE the head guy in the camp and then pass LAWS that are intended it seems to last forever and ever so NO ONE will ever know. This is called ‘erasing history’ the Soviets were very much into that. Read George Orwell’s 1984 and how to turn people into ‘non persons’
Another very smart and cool Englishman if you think about it I think that is an amazing achievement and it was published in 1948 shortly after the war. The old saying “you can fool some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time but it’s hard to
fool all of the people all of the time” But they are TRYING! BTW I see the likes of Kollerstrom and not only him carrying on that kind of Orwell (English) tradition. There is no doubt in my mind this is mostly a huge lie and a massive exaggeration and we are living with it’s effects everywhere now. Hey if the cornerstone of the culture is based on lies why not more and more of them. And that’s what we have sadly. Enough for now.
> Patrick,
> more bullshit from your side.
> you distort what I said, as if I said one has to believe everything literally that’s on Wickipedia, while I simply said the court cases they pointed out about Irving should be easy to trace.
> but of course you are an investigator with tunnel view and conveniently ignore any question or piece of evidence that is not up your preferred alley,and would force you to have a closer look at yourself.
> m
> back to insulting, Patrick?
> weak..
> maybe you should change your name to Pathetrick.
> I say this because you are so not straight and not honest your comments start feeling like some sick kind of spam.
> you have no true good motives, even you can’t believe that anymore as you never reply to the heart of the matter, this is the best way to lose everyone’s last bit of respect.
> M
The real question on my mind isn’t about the Holocaust, vaccines, and conspiracy theories etc but whether it is possible to have some sanity on this blog. I am not even interested in discussing this stuff or I would go to other forums and blogs where I am sure there are loads of people to engage with it.
Phil
I don’t think the issue is whether Wikipedia is always accurate or not, I’m sure many times it is not. But in the case of David Irving it is. There are hundreds of articles about Irving not to mention the fact that he does not deny being a neo nazi who worked to start his own nazi organization. This is a link to one of the many cases against Irving that describes very well his tendency to misrepresent history. http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/index.html I’m not sure why you are arguing about this Patrick. If Kollerstrom and Irving are people you admire then why deny who they are? What exactly do you feel isn’t true about what Margaret, Phil or Daniel have said about these people? I have to smile when you go on about free thinking while quoting from the same small group of narrow thinkers. Several people have suggested you try reading and educating yourself on both sides of any subject you want to understand. As an aside I’m not sure how you can describe someone like Kollerstrom as urbane , from my perspective he might be the least urbane person I have ever seen. Just my opinion. My only other suggestion is that when you are listening to these people and repeating back what they describe as fact that you ask yourself did they ever actually give evidence of their beliefs. Next you could double check that evidence before repeating it as fact. In the end you can admire whoever you choose to and you can believe what ever you want. Maybe you just need to accept others may not agree. In the end we all know exactly what you think, let’s leave it at that. You have also made it clear you don’t think introspection is necessary in this situation and that’s up to you as well. Gretchen
Thanks Gretchen for taking the time. You don’t have to. BTW here is a very short video where Kollerstrom explains he is not a ‘holocaust denier’. It is only a minute and a half and I think worth watching as be being an ‘urbane Englishman’ puts it a lot better than me being a “fighting Irishman’. I really like this and it IS short
This is another one and for some reason I think of Daniel watching this (open mind) and Jack also. Phil I don’t know about you I think you need a few years. This a bit longer about 20 mins but also makes many telling points imo. And especially to you Daniel I don’t think this takes ANYTHING away from your and your families suffering. Truth is the greatest dis-infectant and salve of all and nobody certainly not me intends to deny your suffering. I am not too crazy about this guy Fetzer who interviews Dr K but as usual he gives a very good account of himself at least I think/feel so
Well so now Kollerstrom has been to a Holocaust museum and agrees it was indeed horrendous – he claims he is no longer a denier ( though I believe they tend to hide behind the term revisionist now) well good ! I’m glad to know he has given up the description of Auschwitz as a resort with movie nights and sing alongs ! Good to know he can finally admit he was wrong. In the meantime please don’t post any more Kollerstrom, Irving etc. – we know their views and I knew their views long before you did. I am clear on what these people believe and what you believe as well. It is not at all confusing. I just don’t think most of us are likely to be swayed by neo nazis. So please let’s leave it at that. I am not so fascinated by these endless conspiracies, honestly you are free to be captivated by anyone you choose I just don’t think these people are very bright. That’s my opinion and you have yours. G.
Yes I do Gretchen and I find your opening paragraph appallingly bad in the kind of ‘loose logic ‘ you display and the kind of smarmy untruths you try to peddle. Just when I was thinking maybe “it’s all good” I can communicate etc well you have shown yourself can I say it as typical of your ‘tribe’. Untruthful, smarmy, loose logic………………..God help your patients!
Well let’s see if you can back that up beyond name calling ( something bullies love to do as you know) . So what exactly was untrue in what I wrote Patrick? I don’t need a dissertation – what exactly was untrue?
Gretchen – the part that got to me (made me mad) was your statement
“Good to know he (Kollerstrom) can finally admit he was wrong”
NO NO NO NO and you KNOW it. That is such bullshit he ‘reached out’ as best he could and tried to EXPLAIN there is a big difference between denying that Jews suffered enormously in WW2 and that there were deliberate programs of gassing set up with orders from the top etc There is also a big difference between say about 200,000 Jews dying in the camps (again mostly from typhus etc NOT gassing) and maybe around 1.2 million TOTAL in the war from ALL causes including Allied bombing, being soldiers in the Soviet army etc and the figure of 6 million. Usually I think it is at least implied that these 6 million died in the camps and not in the war in general.BTW supposedly up to 20 million Germans died from all causes and maybe as many if not more Russians
I feel I am repeating myself too much now but Gretchen if you insist on playing dumb I do tend to keep coming. It is not my intention but you should know me by now we had a similar go around about the suicides at the PI. You should have learned your lesson the more you try to string me along and say stuff that is basically untrue the more it annoys me and the ‘worse’ I can get.
Well, Patrick, if you don’t like Wikipedia you can read the entire Irving vs. Penguin Books and Lipstadt transcripts (the link Gretchen supplied). Here are highlights from the judge’s ruling:
Regarding Irving’s historiography:
“… it is my conclusion that, judged objectively, Irving treated the historical evidence in a manner which fell far short of the standard to be expected of a conscientious historian. Irving in those respects misrepresented and distorted the evidence which was available to him.”
Regarding Auschwitz:
“Having considered the various arguments advanced by Irving to assail the effect of the convergent evidence relied on by the Defendants, it is my conclusion that no objective, fair-minded historian would have serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and that they were operated on a substantial scale to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews.”
Regarding Irving’s motivation:
“I find myself unable to accept Irving’s contention that his falsification of the historical record is the product of innocent error or misinterpretation or incompetence on his part. When account is taken of all the considerations set out in paragraphs 13.140 to 13.161 above, it appears to me that the correct and inevitable inference must be that for the most part the falsification of the historical record was deliberate and that Irving was motivated by a desire to present events in a manner consistent with his own ideological beliefs even if that involved distortion and manipulation of historical evidence.”
———————————
Your account would have us believe that it all was the other way around: In Auschwitz they were just trying to save lives, and Hitler tried to call his bombers back, which were devastating Rotterdam just by mistake. In this Bizzaro World, as millions were enjoying themselves in the Auschwitz theater or the pool or listening to the camp orchestra, Rudolf Höss was the real victim. Who knows, maybe that’s were all the millions who disappeared are – they’re still there in the theater waiting for the intermission.
Of course the Nazis needed their forced labour, but again – what about all those who were on the trains coming into Auschwitz and never admitted to the work camp, never listed and issued numbers? Where are they?
By the way, Höss’ autobiography was written after his trial and verdict, when there was no need to extract any confession from him. He was waiting his execution and his account was detailed and corroborated by other camp guards and many prisoners.
Likewise, you say that in the Nuremberg trials the Nazis were tortured and therefore they told investigators what they wanted to hear. I don’t know if they were tortured, but most of them turned in a plea of Not Guilty, so there goes the theory they said in court what their investigators wanted them to say.
Daniel as I say you are better than most (here) and as someone who DID suffer (your family hence you) I give you a lot of credit.
One thing you should understand is I am not interested in reading ‘standard stuff’ about David Irving. It is corrupted beyond repair and that includes the judges the lawyers journalists etc. He made the mistake of suing Deborah Lipstat for libel I am sure he was libeled but to try to it legally he should have known better
I am certainly not an expert but my impression is he believed in the standard holocaust story TOO much. He was one of the first of course but much has come out in the ’90’s onward like I said the British de-crypts (where over 13 months of intimate conversations among the Nazi leadership about the problems in the camps NOT ONE WORD is heard about any gassing/killing program. If those de-crypts were good enough to sink boats all over the place they should have been good enough to see if anything of that nature was going on in the camps
Do you know that originally the Allies tried to say gassing on prisoners was going on in the camps of “West Germany” but they had to abandon it as not being supportable. The Polish camps were behind the “Iron Curtain” so they went with the story there as they basically had no access to them. The Soviets were not about to ;’tell the truth” it totally fitted into THEIR propaganda about the evil Germans and their own ‘patriotic war’ and so on
Your point about ‘un-registered’ inmates is an interesting one as there would have been some people ‘hanging around’ in the chaos of war who might not have been registered. Kollerstrom says as much and is inclined to up the total death by around 10% as a result. Again NOT deaths by gassing or shooting even…………….people were dying left and right out of control typhus etc. But to assume there is no other evidence and then that the Germans were monsters to these people basically makes no sense.
Not all of the camp workers were tortured mostly the top ones. The fact that some pleaded “Not guilty” I would take as evidence of not being guilty! Some thought they had a better chance by pleading guilty and hoping for some mercy (in short supply) but I think others were just truthfully and bravely saying ‘yes they did nothing wrong’ as I believe most of them didn’t. Do you know some camp commanders were even executed during the war by the Germans themselves for mistreating prisoners. It is easy to overlook that in general the Germans had a seriousness and an integrity sorely lacking I would say with Soviets and many in the Western Allies also. That’s my take and I am sticking to it.
You exaggerate and twist things a bit but not so bad. I should have explained Rotterdam’s PORT was bombed NOT the Dutch civilians and Hitler did try to recall the bombers but they had already done it. But we are getting in the weeds now maybe it’s time to drop it. I see nobody changing their mind including me. I was thinking about this today……………..Gretchen and others say read the other side. Weill I don’t want to I know a lot of it is just crap so why waste the time I have better things to do than read a bunch of lies (my attitude). It’s also say if someone really believes say the primal is true do you tell them oh well read all these other approaches well probably not plus they won’t..
OK Daniel I like you actually. Also last Summer 2014 you were quite helpful to me or at least you tried to be. You are smart and I suppose I have to say ‘balanced’ esp compared to some others here who first off have no direct experience unlike you and also have not a fucking clue about any of it……………but they are still full of ‘opinions’ I am thinking mostly of Phil and Margaret and even Gretchen. Though Gretchen is different something tells me she knows a lot but almost has no interest in the ‘truth’ A hard to thing to say about someone esp in her position but I am too old to be fake polite and I have no career to ruin so I can say what I think now.I find her attitude weird and twisted and not very becoming for something whose motto is “all feelings are valid” well are they??
It might be interesting to remember that the Irish were not involved in WW2 (dunno about WWI) and there were some, I have heard accounts of, that were pro Nazi politically. Maybe Patrick was one of those, since he nor his fellow countrymen suffered any effects of that war. Is this a sort of ironic? Who knows.
Just one other factor regarding myself. My father during the war often stated that we (the British) were fighting the wrongs “buggers” as he phrased it. I later found out why, and it was that we had relatives living in Germany. My great grandfather on my father side had a brother who went over there, married and had family. My sister after the war went to visit them. My father was a fierce anti communist and tried hard to indoctrinate me to a likewise sentiment.
I do feel that Patrick is not getting anywhere with any of this, other than putting peoples back-up.
Jack
Jack – I wasn’t around in WW2 I was born in 1952. But I do remember my Dad telling me and my brother about the war. He heard it on the radio no TV at that time and read the papers. And I did get the feeling he was ‘neutral’ in terms of what side he was on but maybe tending towards supporting Germany. He told us how the ‘supply lines’ were the problem in Russia not the fighting per se but keeping these long supply lines going. That made an impression on me and I got the feeling he was ‘sorry’ for the German plight so I absorbed that a bit I would say.
He was not alone in this we had a nasty war with the British from 1918-21. People had very bad memories of the British and that went back to the Famine and beyond. Religious persecution, wiping out our language and culture and all the way back to Oliver Cromwell whose soldiers (we were told) tossed babies around on pitch forks. BTW Oliver Cromwell was the one who enabled the Jews to come back to England. They had been kicked out of there since the late 1200’s. Germany was not the first with idea of telling them to move out apparently just about every European country even the liberal Dutch at one time did. Not saying who is right or wrong in that but it seems to be a recurring theme in history. And I do believe it usually takes two to tango or two to have a war. Look at me and you!
Even at the time I did not feel it ‘shameful’ my Dad was a bit on the side of Germany why would he not be? I also know one of their pilots strayed from bombing the UK and crash landed in the mountains near where we live. Again I felt the people were sympathetic to the pilot as the Irish usually are anyway to anyone in trouble. I am not anti-British to this day as I say I admire the ability of SOME of them to ‘free think’ but historically they were a disaster for us. As I said before they practiced all their devious ‘Divide and Conquer” techniques on us and then applied them to the rest of the world. We were their own lab for destructive techniques…………..
One thing about me that is different than a lot of the people here is the Irish are/were almost like ‘indigenous’ people, I have a different feeling than a lot of people from more ‘developed’ countries. Also you are right we were neutral in WW2 and escaped so much suffering and nonsense as a result. The victors write History and that has been taken to absurd lengths in the case of WW2. Do you think we live in a good world a world of truth………….I don’t and even Germany now though all this guilt is stuffed down their throats they seem to do more about global warming for example than anyone else . I do believe they have been very wronged by the so called ‘history’
BTW Ireland was joined to the UK during WW1 so ‘had’ to fight on the British side. Another thing that caused great resentment in Ireland……………….why are we fighting for THEM and not ourselves. So there was an insurrection in 1916 so this year is the Centenary of that. That is considered our most glorious moment in history thought really it was a failure but it stirred up the people and we got our independence in 1921. Though maybe in typical self destruct Irish style we signed it all away to the EU around 2000. Ireland sadly is hardly an independent country anymore……………..just an annex of international capital Euro style bankruptcy and bailouts. When I was growing up we actually had “National Socialism” though it was not called that that is too much just a swear word a rotten name. But Gretchen stoops to use it as she thinks it fits her case.But actually it WAS a good system all the major things heath, transport, education were run and owned by the State. But you know all about that you had that in the UK also. Now sadly after the depredation of the Iron Lady all gone………………
Ok, I will not answer you dissertation in full, with one of mine. Just a few comments for me to throw around. I grant that you’re somewhat smart at picking your points and responding … leaving many of the ones; seemingly you do not like OR, are unable to really answer. We all do that to some extent, but you are becoming a ‘past master’ at it. You also threaten to leave the blog, but seemingly your compulsion does not permit you, like you are on ‘automatic pilot’. I suspect, even if you get back to county Kerry you’ll still be blogging here.
I fully agree that the implementation of Karl Marx’ communism was never realized … methinks because at the time he had little knowledge of the “nature” of neurosis. It’s a psychological factor that once, even for a benevolent dictator, their whole theory of how they would govern falls, and the very new situation they find themselves in necessitates (presumable for the very cause they are leading), requires re-thinking. How much that happened to Lenin I do not know, but from the outside looking in, it certainly happened to Stalin. Incidentally the very same happens to most politicians and especially the leaders like Prime Minister and Presidents. The very office they inherit dictates how they are to operate. Hence, we see clearly (leastways some of us) the promise never gets fulfilled. Hitler seemingly from the promises featured in “Mien Kampf” were extreme, to say the least, albeit that it was named Socialism; and he too made a few turn arounds. Try reading it if you are able.
The world is full of armchair dictators, commanders and philosopher one of which I am (philosophers that is). Easy being outside looking in, but a whole other factor once one is ‘in’ looking out.
Without repeating my claim again in full here … the abolition of money and all form of exchange would resolve 95% of our human problems, BUT it requires, (my notion; just mine) to get ones head around the notion. Most dismiss it within one second of hearing it, WITHOUT actually contemplating it. Understandable after major deprivation in our early childhood years; that most of us have absolutely no access to. Que lastima.
Jack
First of all Patrick you asked me to watch a short video and I did. None of what you have said is in that video so implying I left it out of my discussion is bullshit. You may want to review your video . As for your comment that ” you should have learned your lesson the more you string me along and say stuff that is basically untrue the more it annoys me the worse I can get”. Really Patrick? My job is not to manage you! I will say what I think and if you are upset by what I have to say then I guess you will just have to deal with that. There is something of the threat in that comment which I can assure you does not work for me on any level. As for the untrue things you accused me of saying well, I still am not clear what you found to be untrue and likely you will not be enlightening us. The fact that something made you mad does not mean I lied it means you don’t like what you are hearing. You keep complaining that you can’t communicate. That is not the case. You have endlessly said your views. Your problem is that you can’t handle others disagreeing with you. You proudly announce you don’t believe in reading both sides of an argument. You prefer to stick with those that agree with you. Ok…….. For your information and in regard to your comment to Daniel you said you don’t want to read the so called standard stuff on David Irving well fine but he does not deny being a neo nazi. You can read what he says about himself to know who he is. You will find it does not differ from the things that have been written about him. Lastly, maybe you should think a little before calling those that disagree with you liars. Gretchen
Gretchen – you basically make me sick!! There are so many ‘un-truths’ there I would not know where to start. Don’t pretend you don’t remember and understand about the “3 suicides including attempted’ You are hopeless just hopeless as a person to establish any ground work of truth with. You twist and turn and distort and remember and mis-remember and spin and throttle back and rev forward. You are hopeless.
As far as making a ‘threat’ please……………I was even making fun of myself about ‘the worse I get’ that’s a joke and you know it. But you know a lot of things Gretchen a lot of things you don’t let on. I feel I am finished with you if not with the blog completely. You disappoint me sorely
What is a ‘neo-nazi’ anyway aside from a swear word for you?. Just stupid name calling. BTW the correct term is “National Socialist” which from all I can see would not be a bad idea at all. We have “international capitalism” in the West now (how’s that working out for everyone?) and we had “international communism” in the Soviet Union (how did that work out for everybody??) National Socialism if properly done seems like a good idea where you don;’t have vast in-equality of wealth and where a country actually means something as in taking care of it’s people.
But the ‘powers that be’ (I don’t need to spell out who they are) have seen to it that that will never happen! So congratulations you have your sick world and you should be kept busy trying to glue the pieces together forever and ever. Good luck.
> reading the fifteen comments of this morning kind of felt slightly nauseating.
> triggered a faraway sound of ongoing arguments and anger that felt sickening at some point, I remember the time it unexpectedly triggered me into tiny baby wailing too when in a group Patrick went on and on and on ranting incessantly.
> and it does not even lead anywhere, that is the worst part of all.
> it is just senseless snarling and groaning and biting and well, repulsive.
> I am a great fan of a good fight if it goes to the bottom of the cause, but this is just act out upon act out upon act out.
> with a clear refusal to reflect and introspect.
> if he does not disappear from this blog as he promises repeatedly, I think the best second option is we all ignore him as replying only feeds the craziness and takes over the entire dynamics here.
> it clearly does not seem to lead anywhere.
> of course I might be wrong, I am just so fed up with this, it is nauseating.
> it helps to just push the delete button but still.
> M
Margaret: we each go through our phases with Patrick at different times. Mine started before he came on the blog. It amazed me at first, that how he was re-acting to me did not phase others at the time. It was quite some time before I realized others needed to go through their own process about him.
I did, in my own feeble way try to warn people, but quickly began to see that there were many that felt I deserved the tirades he directed at me, even in many cases siding with him. Even Gretchen to my surprise, though she did acknowledge he was somewhat over the top.
Basically as I view him now he’s a very sad person, little knowing where to take it all and actually believing that he has some superior insights into the TRUTH of all matters. I’ve long tried to make it clear that from a Primal perspective he is totally into his head, and though he know himself knows he is angry, is without any clue how to legitimately express that anger. Hence, I see him as sad,, and ultimately hurting himself.
Right now at this point, I ask why do I say all this. My feeling is that I wish to show the bigger picture, but then; am I fooling myself? … I well maybe, but I was inspired to make this response to you Margaret, since you seem to be getting very upset by it all. Maybe if you see that it his comment, then the best could be, as you say to delete it. My compulsions don’t give me that option. I read him, and even sometimes get the desire to respond. Maybe the argumentative aspects of me, or as you put it, ‘the fair fight’. Ok Margaret, hope you didn’t mind.
Jack
Jack,
For me the worst part is the repetitiveness of what goes on here. Between you and Patrick. Also the stuff he shares with us, or rather pushes at us, disturbing stuff which doesn’t seem to be part of any attempt at therapy. Nor does it seem to have to do with a connection with people here, other than bullying.
If I was to present everything that goes on with me that my therapist or buddy hear, well it is also repetitive and part of a pattern, as are probably my comments here.
I would like to think that I’m making progress and not just on a treadmill.
Phil
Phil: Not quite sure what you were trying to tell me, other than I am being repetitive I am not totally sure that is so terrible, or that it is against my therapy or therapeutic progress. I have known for quite some time, over 50% of anything I comment on here is me speaking to myself. I do re-read my own comments and often see it more clearly
Maybe you were not suggesting any of this, but I would be all ears for some clarification, if that was the case. I do agree with several people that have suggested we all, and me in particular, refrain from responding to Patrick. However, in my own defense on that issue, my time working with and for Patrick goes back almost thirty years. Not all that easy to drop it, since it is a great chunk of my working life.
Therapeutically however, much of what I comment upon. is a major part of the therapy for me; in-so-far as I practice expressing myself in the manner for what I deem feelings and their counterpart expressions are about. What I find revealing about putting my thoughts and feeling into writing is that it is recorded and can go back to it, and self critique it, and hopefully learn from it Further, I do enjoy it, though I am also aware that I irritate quite a few people, not only on this blog, but in and around the people I come into contact with. It’d be nice if I didn’t, but I have to accept first, that I do.
Jack
.
Jack,
I was just reflecting on what you said in your post. What came to mind is that besides Patrick’s problematic postings, there is the repetitive incidents you have with him. These often seem of a different nature, and often avoidable it seems to me, because of the poking you do. I guess you have explained this; that it’s fun for you, but it just seems uncalled for, (except some historical reason) and at least to me, is an ongoing problem or issue here, as a poke can just be out of the blue, and provoke a whole big insulting exchange. I can’t see how or why that would be fine with you. As with anything else, it could be worked on and hopefully resolved or diminished.
Phil
Phil: Just one minor comment that may or may not explain my poking. Patrick responds the way he does, seemingly to anyone who does not side with him, and seemingly nothing anyone says to him even angers him EXCEPT being quoted back. I could be wrong, but if there is anything that gets to Patrick at all it is my pokes by way of quotes.
About repetitiveness:- A whole host of repetitive feelings are how it goes for me. Oh! that I could resolve it in one good scream or cry, or even raging anger on my bed.
I do feel, and have stated in the past, that if everyone were to leave Patrick alone that would not stop him from making his promotions on this blog. My take is:- I feel he would think he is getting through. From my working with him over the years I know that he is a very good salesman, and I did not wish to see his promotion (I feel are out of context for this blog) dominating it. Hence I resort to that technique, which I feel, though I could well be wrong, are actually beginning to drive him to see things differently. Not necessarily for him to leave.
Margaret: Thanks for your response.
Jack
Jack,
I don’t really want to dwell on this but you’ve said repeatedly that you do the poking for fun. I think there was a major incident just last week, with Patrick ending up threatening you. I don;t think there is quite the same pattern here with anyone else.
I haven’t noticed any evidence of him seeing things differently but I could be wrong.
Phil
Gretchen:
I read your comment from February 2nd, saying:
“Lastly….Guru, sometimes I think you are very brave. Gretchen”
In response, I have to ask you what percentage of the thousands of total people who have come to see you that you consider “very brave” at least sometimes?
Guru: why can’t you just take it that Gretchen feels you are courageous?. I seems to me you need to feel that you are uniquely special to Gretchen. It’s my feeling that she feels all her patient are special in the own way. Why else would she want to do this kind of work?
Jack
Guru,
I wonder why can’t you accept this comment from Gretchen for what it’s worth, or at least try to. Same thing happened not to long ago, which led to the Brawny paper towel discussion.
It seems to me that at this moment she was addressing you and not thousands of other people.
Phil
> Jack,
> no problem.
> I am usually not very upset you know about Patricks postings, just momentarily irritated and frustrated.
> the fact he does not get it either when Gretchen adresses him was more frustrating than the rest, his rudeness and refusal to let anything in and that kind of anger beyond reason, the mere desire to hurt, where reminders of some old pain I guess.
> but nothing I can’t deal with, just a faint resonating by now..
>
> and I want to say it here as well, Phil, there is no comparison with the repetitive nastiness and the kind of adressing the same issues repeated times while working on them, that difference stands out very much.
> and Ted, and Daniel, hope to hear more from you.
>
> sorry, am going on here, guess another painfully frustrating call with mom did meke me feel like needing some connection.
> told her 8 times it is evening, and not morning..
> it is painful.
> M
> DAvid Attenborough hurray.
> bats and moths live for 16 million years already, the bats chasing the moths with their echolocation sounds.
> now scientists discovered some moths hear the bat’s sound shift to attack mode, then the moth makes a sound with its abdomen and genitals that jams the sound the bat makes and makes it lose its direction at the very last moment so the moth has a chance to I remember once seeing a big flying fox in a pet store, it was sad to see the holes in its wings, but it could crawl around freely over the cages and did seem to enjoy eating fruit.
> I really liked its appearance, it looked intelligent, had shiny black fur, and big white teeth in a bit of a devilish face with big ears, and its hands looked very sensitive.
> it had a long black pointy tongue,and well, it felt wring such a creature had to be there, it should be free out in the wild environment where it belongs, with that innate dignity all animals possess.
> 16 million years, those bats and moths….
> and then the human plague arrives threatening to wipe the largest part of all species away of this wonderful earth..
> sometimes I think big epidemics, (or vaccines?) would have a good side, but of course it would be better if humans use some kind of birth control to keep their numbers down and leave some space for the rest of our fellow creatures..
> M
It is interesting that people perceive me as ‘repetitive’, I mean of course I am in that I am always ‘;me’ but honestly I sort of feel I am one of the LEAST repetitive here. Could be wrong but one of my biggest gripes about PT as it currently exists is actually very ‘repetitive’ I have more than once said the “Retreat” need to be called the “Repeat” lol I don’t want to argue the point but it stuck me that way. At least as far as ‘topics’ go and I understand that is just the top level but let’s see I have been going on about sort of in historical order here, paleo diet, what a fuck up ‘standard primal is, Dr Kruse and all that entails (cold exposure, grounding, sunshine avoiding screens of all kinds the value of eating fish and avoiding EMF’s) what a fuck up ‘standard primal is, vaccines and how terrible they are, holocaust revisionism,what a fuck up ‘standard primal is 9/11 and ‘fake terror’ Chalie Hebdo etc, how we most likely did not go to the moon, doubts about if Paul McCartney has been ‘replaced’ I am very much inclined to believe he has what a fuck up ‘standard primal is
I could go on but it’s my impression nobody here has a ‘record’ anything like that not that it is a ‘competition’ or anything though with me it sadly somehow is and OK I can see ONE thing I have been ‘repetitive’ about but it is a matter of great concern to me. And I FEEL I am making good progress whatever all the ‘anal-ists’ here say
Guru – your turn on the hot seat, explain yourself to the group……………plus I don’t think you ever quite ‘finished up’ about that Australian ad you put on here. i am just playing Guru you do whatever the hell you feel like………..
Oh I forget another one and I am sure there are more……………how ‘fake terror’ is spreed by fear’s of ‘fake threats’ like ZIKA virus and almost certainly HIV also
…………and I put on soccer highlights from time to time this was a wonderful goal (a work of art) 2 days ago in the English League (below) I talk about ‘politics’ as much as is allowed and acceptable here I could go on and on but I won’t…………..makes me wonder though about ‘standard primal’ Barry said one time ‘our pain makes us stupid’ I would agree but added at the time does ;’standard primal’ KEEP us stupid. I am inclined to think so as sacrilegious as that might sound…………….
Gretchen:
My comment has gotten lost in the crowd above, so I will repeat it here with a special additional question at the end.
I read your comment from February 2nd, saying:
“Lastly….Guru, sometimes I think you are very brave. Gretchen”
In response, I have to ask you what percentage of the thousands of total people who have come to see you that you consider “very brave” at least sometimes?
Also, have you remarked that dogs and other animals can be very brave, too?
Patrick,
Your last comment to me made me feel sad. Sad because I felt hopeless about ever reaching you – and I did want to reach you – and hopeless because when our shared reality collapses it drills holes in and cracks the very possibility of connectedness. It was particularly your saying that you’re not interested in the standard stuff. I feel this is such a shame and such a waste. I felt that by this you’re missing so much of what life has to offer, because the world of shared reality (with emphasis on the ‘shared’) is there to be used for development and personal articulation, it can be studied and learned because it’s there to be studied and learned. In other words, real food is much more satisfying than imaginary food.
Shared reality is important also because it puts brakes on fantasy, and without those brakes love and hate can cause alarming effects, as I’m sure you’ve experienced.
So I accept your suggestion that we should just drop the subject, with the sad realization that although some of us desperately need to we will not reach you in this matter, and although you too desperately need to you will not reach us. Hence the waste. I guess that in a way this is a primal issue for some of us because we each had our share of feeling hopeless about trying to connect and communicate something across, only to fail and expose ourselves to the looming catastrophe of a lonely reality which is not shared by those we need to share it with.
For me this is in did an emotional issue. Not only did it affect my own family and of course me, it was all around. By now Holocaust survivors are becoming fewer and fewer, but when I was growing up they were all around me, and I’ve heard their stories many times. None of my friends had any extended families, no one had a grandfather or a grandmother, and some of them had mothers or fathers that would wake up screaming with terror in the middle of the night. Every night.
We were given names to commemorate previous family members such as mothers or fathers or brothers and sisters or children who vanished into thin air (mine is after my grandfather), so we served as and embodied a constant reminder of some kind of personal disaster that didn’t really belong to us but was nevertheless ever present.
So in my personal life, and in the life of the Jewish people, the Holocaust isn’t just another abstract piece of history but a major, defining calamity with perceptible features. That is why we can’t just let it go when people say it never happened. I hope you can at least understand this.
Thanks Daniel I take a lot of your points. The thing is about reading the ‘other side’ well especially nowadays it becomes for me at least a kind of a problem. There is SO much one might read and at least now the ‘holocaust revisionist’ movement is a big world unto itself. I started at least with idea of sort of mastering that. Also I think in general there is a bit of a myth about researching ‘both sides’. That is true in an academic sense of course but I think most of us read and study ‘what turns us on’ for whatever reason. This might not sound so good in an academic conference but it is ‘reality’ pretty much. Then as far as the holocaust goes well I and everyone else has grown up on “Sophie’s Choice” “Schindler’s List” etc etc. I mean we have had all that. They when I read history and read about the gross distortions of Spielberg in that movie and not only in that movie…………..and I think enough I am not going to waste my time anymore on this kind of stuff.
I DO appreciate what you shared about your family though and it has made things a bit more clear about what might have happened in MANY countries, France, Holland Belgium, Hungary, Poland, Russia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Italy etc. It is a complicated picture and I take your point very much how it is a kind of double whammy or in your case as you say your family WAS German and still no good. I still think though UNDERSTANDING is so important to be ‘morally’ outraged or whatever……………I mean we can be that way about our parents for example but in the end they had no choice and were doing their best. You might object to this very much but I would say the same about Germany. A country dismembered after WW1, huge debts, hyper-inflation, then the Great Depression coming on top of all this and Hitler tried and actually ‘succeeded’ in pulling the country together.
Also his ‘hatred’ of the Jews is a kind of bigger picture and really to me a lot of it is hatred of Marxism on the one hand and the kind of ‘stock market’ capitalism on the other hand. Both things he saw as wrecking Germany and I could see his point. The country was flat on it’s back and he blamed the “Jews” really though the capitalists and the Marxists on the other side. Also Jews by their insistence they are a separate race more than a religion yet they live inside other countries but regard themselves as separate………….that is setting yourself up for some major problem especially as around 100 years the age of Nationalism was at hand. All of these countries were asserting themselves AS countries and you have the Jews there saying ‘hold on here a minute’. I mentioned this is the 100 year anniversary of the Irish State, Italy came into being a bit earlier. Germany was a strong and proud country but was tricked into the WW1 especially by Britain and yet was blamed for it all. Hitler blamed the Jews for more or less all of this and again there is reality to that. Britain basically promised Israel to the Jews and as a result pretty much brought the USA into the war. On the east the Communists infiltrated the German army and caused the disaster that was Versailles
Anyway you don’t need history lessons from me but I appreciate you do seem to care and to me all I am doing is advancing my understanding as best as I can……………..and actually YOU have helped me with that with your story about your family.
Daniel,
Such a sad story, so many people missing family members, and all the stories you heard. I started reading your post and it just amazed me on how well you express
yourself, noticeable on earlier messages as well. Difficult for me to see how anyone else could be more convincing than you on this subject.
I hope you will continue with us on the blog.
Phil
Thanks Phil.
Hey Guru, I did not lose your comment I was just giving it some thought. Plus I thought the comments others made in regard to your question were pretty much true and might be helpful. I figured you were trying to wish that compliment into the nearest cornfield, disappear that compliment or at the very least diminish it as quickly as possible. But let’s take the animal kingdom. I’m thinking at least 99 percent of all animals must be pretty brave. Sadly my best dog ever ( also my only dog ever) Pavlov falls into the one percent of cowardly animals. As for humans well, I myself teeter on the precipice between courage and cowardice. Maybe most people do. I think I have seen equal measures of cowardice and courage. Bravery is of course taking action despite ones fear not an absence of fear. This is a huge struggle for most people with fear winning about half the time. Gretchen
Gretchen: I am not wanting to wish away compliments or having trouble saying them. For instance, if you told me, “Guru, you are by far the most intelligent and wisest being I could ever possibly know from the moment I drew my first breath at birth until the moment I exhale for the last time upon my death.”, I would gladly accept this as true.
The problem with the “bravery” and “proud of me” compliments is that they can be easily applied to lower beings and it leaves me feeling as though you are surreptitiously placing me on par with these lower beings even though your words are disguised as being complimentary.
I was typing in a hurry and had to step away for stirring soup. Let me clean the above post a bit:
Gretchen: I am not wanting to wish away compliments or having trouble with accepting people saying them to me. For instance, if you told me, “Guru, you are by far the most intelligent and wisest being I could ever possibly hope to know from the moment I drew my first breath at birth until the moment I exhale for the last time upon my death.”, I would gladly accept this as true and I would fully appreciate your observations,
The problem with the “bravery” and “proud of me” compliments is that they can be easily applied to lower beings and they leave me feeling as though you are surreptitiously placing me on par with these lower beings even though your words are disguised as being complimentary.
As an aside (disregarding other animals than humans).
And yes, as an example, labelling 5% of your human clients as “very brave” carries a much greater impact than having 80% of your human clients having “very brave” moments in which the higher percentage dilutes the meaning of the compliment.
Guru: What the heck!!! Why does it have to be comparative. You got a compliment; does it really matter whether 80% others got one also, OR is it a bigger boost to the ego to be in the 5% Geeze
Jack
I do not need to be placated by an increasingly exclusive and powerful subgroup of compliments to satiate my ego. Rather, it flows naturally as a by-product of my native greatness. Strictly dispassionate, fact-based observations of my supremacy are all that are necessary; there are no emotional concomitants of my ego which need to be gratified in this case.
I would so love a bowl of home cooked soup.
Sounds good Larry. I like my slow cooker for that.
Phil: I remember my second year in college That I couldn’t really absorb those classes. It took me a couple of years off and working some to appreciate school. It might be a settling down process of age for your son. Though, of course you’re a dad and will be concerned.
I’m wondering about the compliment Gretchen has given Guru. If one of us other bloggers had said it would it have been received without question. It must be a difficult position to be seen as a ‘teacher’ pointing out something good, rather than just a friend noticing.
Although I am also a fan of slow cooking soups and chili on a frequent basis, I would have serious problems with the idea of chicken liver in such a meal.
I think Guru is saying he feels ‘patronized’……………what’s ‘wrong’ with that “All feelings are valid” intones the choir except when they are not! Or all this business about ‘express you feeling’ or ‘say wharever is on your mind’ until you do……………….then there is all this ‘concern’ about so called ‘anger’. Another label and betrays the emptiness of the exercise..
Perhaps Patrick is describing what he himself is experiencing or is experiencing from others on the blog when the word “anger” is used, but for what it’s worth I simply want to say I am not feeling any “anger” here at all.
Little squeals and giggles would be the operative watchwords for me.
> Erron,
> could you be less cryptic please?
> M
ROTFLMAO: Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Arse Off
Hmm, not signed in, that was me, Margaret…
My son, who is going to community college and living at home, has yet to take the plastic wrap off his books for the spring semester even though I’ve mentioned it would be better if he starts studying. He could fool me by just unwrapping them but doesn’t even bother to do that.
Maybe he’s doing fine and we can sell the books back and get the new price. I’ve been having dreams about this. in my dreams I discover he actually does study and is doing well.
The reality is I hardly ever see him as he stays out late with friends who are not in school.
It’s good he’s still living at home as I don’t think he’s ready to go away to college and to take it seriously. But it’s difficult seeing how he operates.
Phil
Phil – maybe he not ‘inspired’ to learn (what’s put in front of him). Maybe run a few so called ‘conspiracy theories’ by him and you might find he get’s interested. Maybe start by telling him we never actually went to the moon but it was all done by Stanley Kubrick in his film studio in England………………….you don’t have to present that as a ‘fact’ just an intriguing idea and let him run with it………I must admit there way you present ‘knowledge’ here Phil I would not be inspired either.
I just read one of the links Gretchen sent me about David Irving. Now I realize Gretchen spends too much time of ‘hate web sites’ where serious historians are called ‘hate names’ like the favorite one ‘holocaust denier’. Actually he wasn’t at all and the more modern research backed up by a lot of stuff that has come on from the ’90’s onward has shown him to have believed way TOO MUCH in ‘gas chambers’ and ‘gas vans’ etc. He was actually a bit naive and who could blame him really but he at least started a process that has now more come to a conclusion. A lot of the more modern people are not that crazy about David Irving he was really just a good beginning………….
> Phil,
> when does he have his next exams?
> and does he go to any classes?
> it must be frustrating..
> and also not easy to know how much and what to say..
> M
Margaret,
I think he goes to all his classes. I don’t know when any exams will be coming up.
He did fine last fall but still I’m concerned.. I’ve tried to motivate him by discussing how much it’s costing us now, then especially later when he goes away, and some of that will be his student loans. It’s good enough for him if he just passes, but to me that risks doing poorly.
Not much I can do about it.
Phil
I’ll be opening a can of Amy’s organic chunky vegetable soup for lunch this afternoon. I may add some other ingredients to it, perhaps some chicken liver. Along with the soup I’ll eat some pumpkin seed butter on bread and perhaps a banana. It should be enough to power me through the gym this afternoon.
Another solitary meal in my solitary life. I have the biggest hole to climb out of that I’ve ever been in. My polymyalgia hurts me, makes me weak, makes me tired. It takes away my vitality and my interest in life. I’m frightened by how weak, alone and isolated I’m becoming, and what a long hard slog I have ahead to try to crawl out of this. Exercise is important, so even though I am very weak and hurting, I will go to the gym this afternoon to try to build up strength and try to counteract the polymyalgia muscle inflammation. With polymyalgia always eating away at me, the exercise has to be done regularly and persistently if I am to regain some strength. And even though I am weak and hurting and tired and just want to crawl into bed, tomorrow I will spend the evening with a social group.
I have to imagine a worthwhile future for me, and work hard and persistently toward it, even though I can often feel like I’ll never get there. I wish there was someone in my life making soup for me, worried about and caring for me. Somehow I’m not worth it to me as much as if someone cares about me. I guess I carry a great childhood weight that nobody cares and nobody sees, and I’m all alone with my suffering and there is no one to help me out of it, and it is too much for a child to overcome on his own.
I’ve become more and more disinterested in the blog over the past weeks. You’ve put so much time and energy into trying to get Patrick to see. I’m surprised that you do and you make me wonder what is wrong with you. All that is accomplished is that he becomes more polished at “brushing aside” your interventions. It is my observation that at the risk of horrendous primal pain, Patrick can’t let himself see, and yet you all try so hard to help him to. From the many clues in his responses, it is clear he isn’t interested in thinking, reflective, informed debate. He just wants to express his opinions and beliefs, unsupported by facts, on controversial, generally conspiracy type issues. Why here? Maybe because of all the attention he gets. Maybe because when he feels he counters your arguments, so to speak, he feels more confident that he is right in his beliefs. It is a sad, fruitless situation, and I only guess it is your own primal pain that keeps you engaging with him. I feel such engagement is pointless and is not a way that I want to fritter away my limited time and energy.
So this blog was an important community to me, from which I am withdrawing further and further into isolation as with many aspects of my life. I need to fight against the withdrawal into isolation and the feeling that no one can understand and no one can help. Writing here has helped me many times to deal with difficult issues in my life. So I post this in trying to break out of the rut of isolation I am falling into.
Larry,
I hope you won’t give up on the blog. You’re no doubt right in your analysis of whats been going on here. Hopefully it will improve and that you can still use it to counter the isolation you describe. I hope you can make progress on winning that fight against isolation.
Phil
I might feel like it sometime, Phil, but I don’t think I will give up on the blog. It is a microcosm of my life, and if I give up on one then I likely will give up on the other, which won’t get me anywhere.
Hey Larry, I’m so glad you decided to write today. I do realize you have to push yourself to do so but I really do believe it will help as you continue to work through all you are dealing with. I did want to briefly respond to your comments about Patrick and the feedback he has received. Though I wish Patrick no harm and I would help if I could it is not for Patrick that I speak up. Mostly I prefer to stay out of exchanges on the blog but there are times when I feel my silence can speak more loudly than my words. This is one of those times that I feel silence can communicate acceptance or agreement and furthermore that my silence is actually worse than what is being said. Somewhat like the mother who is silent while dad molests the kids. Who is the bigger criminal? So it is not that I believe anything I say is meaningful to Patrick or that he will suddenly have the proverbial light bulb moment. No not at all. I speak up for Daniel, Tom, Jack ( though I understand he says he is not bothered by the word faggot and Patrick seemed remorseful about that but still) and there are many, many others. That is who I speak for. I hope that makes more sense to you. Gretchen
On some forums a permanent note can be put that doesn’t get lost among old posts.
Maybe impracticable here but the same issues do keep getting reactivated. I feel the need to speak out, but then further comments are definitely unproductive and frustrating.
Phil
Group guidelines could have advantages too; not censorship but limits
Phil
Gretchen – I don’t appreciate the way you say Daniel and Tom (leaving Jack out for the moment) you are playing the “Jewish”: angle still aren’t you?. I am fine with Daniel and believe we had a productive communication I trust he can speak for himself more if he needs to.
I expect Tom now any moment to come ‘riding to the rescue’ again stressing the “Jewish” angle.You should be ashamed of yourself given the position you are in to be so ‘partisan’ But has and is it seems always a problem with the “Jews” clannish, narrow and cling together and eff the ‘truth’. More important is to cling to-gether and bolster the ‘story’
To me you have shown yourself in a very bad light (probably only to me but whatever) the VERY DAY I put on the first Kollerstrom video in the morning by NOON you were on there announcing he was a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’. What’s up with you? Are you constantly on guard like the kind of typical paranoid nursing fears of ‘extermination’ as the most extreme of your clan is won’t to do
No Gretchen Dr Nick Kollerstrom is no ‘moron’ or no ‘imbecile’ you though I am really beginning to wonder about. This guy has more understanding in his little finger than you and in one afternoon he can explain more than you have been now at the PI going on 50 years. And to-day we see Larry mentally and physically bollixed up……………………so much for your vaunted results. Self praise is no praise Janov might meditate on that it was my Dad said that to me one day saving hay a long long time ago. Words of wisdom from someone who never went to school…………..
Gretchen: I like and appreciate that you intercede on my behalf, which also includes Daniel and Tom. That should be enough, but me being who I am, wish to add further about words; that are an attempt to insult and denigrate. I’m not sure if you are convinced that the use of words like faggot and the British version with the same meaning “Puff” or the Australian “Pufter”, Spanish, Mricon”. My brother had another which I will leave for now.
It was during therapy that I had the insight to the notion “I could not be insulted … I could only allow myself to feel insulted. I knew also from that, any attempt to insult back, only precipitated a ‘spiraling effect’ that seemingly achieved nothing. However, there is always the chance that I could be attempting to nullify a feeling of being hurt. This response of yours set that in motion for me, as I feel many black people do when the “N” word is used and they use it back towards one another. Gays often do the same. So far, no conclusions for myself.
There is no doubt in my mind that many words ‘My Granny’ used towards me when I was very little that resonate to this very day when she would often reply to me with “Yes my love” were very endearing and certainly had an effect upon the little me.
One last point you brought up was that a mother being silent whilst my dad did and said things to us kids; meant she was equally guilty. My mother did the same when my father would creep upstairs and catch us kids romping on the bed after being sent to bed earlier than we needed. Then spanked us. I feel she allowed that for reasons believing that he knew better than her. She was more instinctive, he was totally into reasoning (his head).
Words are more often than not, mere carriers of feelings.
Jack
I understand, Gretchen. He’s going to keep you busy though, I think.
Patrick – Myself, Jack, Daniel, and Tom – two of us are Jewish and two of us are not. Clannish? I think your agenda is showing. I’m sorry this will not fit into your view of things but it has nothing to do with being Jewish as I was trying to make a larger point. I mentioned two people impacted by the Holocaust. There are many more not all Jewish. I did not say Daniel needed me to speak for him I was describing why I felt it was important to do so. I think you will have to get over the fact that myself and many others don’t find Kollerstrom to be the brightest bulb but sorry, you are free to have a pint with him if you like but I just would not. We don’t have to agree. The fact that you are enraged by that is something only you can understand. I think you should re-read what you have just now written if you want to better understand your views on the Holocaust. I think you are about a second from asking me and my ” clan” as you put it, to tape a yellow star to our chests! You do a lot of screaming about honesty but I’m not so sure you are being honest with yourself. Gretchen
Gretchen, I have to say your first sentence invokes a bit of creative accounting there, doesn’t it? We all know Jack will go after Patrick regardless of circumstance and he is gleefully jumping for joy at the added opportunity of all these WW2 event discussions to pile on more stuff.
As an added hint on the creative accounting: My paternal grandfather’s side of the family were of ancient British nobility, and I still consider myself part-British….if you catch my drift.
Yet a better hint: I think I will watch some “Two and a Half Men” episodes this evening.
Guru – I also found a bit of ‘creative accounting’ in that Gretchen there seems to be saying she is not Jewish. Is she? Only she can tell but my understanding is one of her parents was Jewish. I believe if the mother is Jewish that makes you Jewish but the father not so sure. Only Gretchen could make this clear if she feels it appropriate. So if we count Gretchen as Jewish then including Jack that’s three and a half. Jack seems to be in the line of Oliver Cromwell who was a big promoter of the rights of Jews in England and whose soldiers tossed Irish babies around on pitch forks (so we were told). I do believe ‘ancestral memories’ have a reality to them and if Jack wants to understand himself some more I might recommend a good biography of Oliver Cromwell. Seriously Jack it might be interesting for you to do that. I am no expert on the guy but I imagine you might find a lot to relate to……………he hated Royalty cut off their heads I think another thing in common with you. But it’s the irish babies that concern me…………….
Guru – maybe 3 1/2 men then? Are you watching the Charlie Sheen ones…………….they are pretty funny.
I am only going to say I think it is only fair and transparent to include any and all fractions for discussions such as the one Gretchen raised.
Patrick, I still don’t mind directly interacting with you, yet it puts me in a bind because you are currently viewed as radioactive material on the blog for many obvious reasons both logical and illogical.
I’m worried that you’ve left behind some seriously smoldering ruins that can never be repaired, and I can be considered “infected by radiation” just by talking to you.
Maybe angry Irishmen don’t mind the shamrock green glow of radiation. I don’t know…
Well Guru – you don’t have to ‘support’ me but I always like your ‘independence of mind’ something I find quite lacking here for the most part. Radio-active or not I say what is on my mind and though you might find this hard to believe I do believe I am slowly working my way out of here, though I have thought that before. Primal is deep in me but I am VERY slowly easing my way to a better place and understanding. I mean reading what Larry said to day not that it surprises me at all. It is more of a confirmation that this is not on the right track for the most part. Larry has ‘primalled’ for it seems thousands of hours……………….to get where or achieve what? Something wrong.my ‘understanding’ seems to increase and I do believe I know where to go…………
I do agree with Larry that the entire WW2 blog brouhaha is a bit of a tragedy all its own. Lots more I could say, but it’s slow-cooking soup time.
If you use a saucepan instead of a crockpot and you don’t want to wait hours just to eat, you can best simulate the crockpot feeling by starting with 5-10 minutes at simmer, then about 15 minutes at low heat, another 5 minutes at medium-low, and a final few minutes at medium when the bubbles finally start to form. This respectably sears in the home-cooked flavor within a reasonable time.
You slowly raise the temperature over most of the time frame with an accelerating spike in temperature towards the final few minutes, much like the graph of an exponential function.
Maybe a little math homework – if two people are Jewish and one person is half Jewish that is two and a half! Not three and a half. Yes you are only considered Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Did I bring up my religion or lack of it on the blog Guru? G.
The (errr, uhhh) “spirit” of my point resided in ethnicity rather than religion. Yes, I am aware that outsiders can convert to Judaism. I was referring to the natural born types, so to speak.
I can only wonder why there was a rule where you are not Jewish if your mother wasn’t. My first instinct says it was financially motivated somewhere along the way when the rule was laid down eons ago, but I could be wrong.
HYPOTHETICAL: What happens if your mother’s mother was Jewish, but your mother’s father wasn’t? Since your mother she wouldn’t be considered Jewish under those rules and your father was full Jewish, could you still be considered a gentile in that case even though you were 3/4th Jewish in terms of blood?
This problem could be applied to great-grandparents, great-great grandparents, etc. etc. ad infinitum.
There could be an extreme example where you could be 63/64th Jewish by blood, but not considered Jewish in name because one of your great-great-great-great grandmothers was not Jewish.
Bah, I see where I screwed up in my first example. Corrected words in bold. I meant:
What happens if your mother’s father was Jewish, but your mother’s mother wasn’t? Since your mother she wouldn’t be considered Jewish under those rules and your father was full Jewish, could you still be considered a gentile in that case even though you were 3/4th Jewish in terms of blood?
…..and on and on….potentially leading up to exceptions for 255/256th Jewish by blood still being a gentile (or even more slender fractions as you work your way back to the Byzantines, etc.)
I’m sorry, but that rule is just totally wacked to me. Theoretically I could have someone only 1/4th Jewish by blood (or perhaps even less, but would require research) and be considered officially Jewish, yet someone else could be a full 63/64th Jewish by blood yet still be a gentile.
Man, that’s just….
I guess two and a half could be a clan. Thanks for clarifying that .g.
Ha ha very funny! . Who is Jewish or not? can get pretty silly. I watched something a few nights ago that claimed the 10 tribes of Israel went wandering this is I dunno around 700 BC and they got to the British Isles. Most of them stayed in England but one went to Ireland and I remember in school we were told a tribe called “Tuatha na Danann” ruled Ireland. This was one of the tribes or clans of Israel. So that would make ME Jewish since I am 100% Irish. I say this also to kind of point out the silliness of this Jewish thing of keeping themselves so ‘separate’.This seems to be deep in them and has caused them and the world in general massive problems
This is a real factor to the present day. The US is ‘strangled’ by Jewish influence so no need to address any of our actual problems just think of that little defenseless baby in the Middle East harking back to holocausts real or imagined and constantly fearful of another one but ACTUALLY doing one on an ongoing basis to all their neighbors. I get so tired of all this bad behavior constantly justified to a past that I never suspected is largely invented but there you are it appears it was at the least way exaggerated and dressed up for the movies/propaganda
Thinking of Daniel again………………1 million German civilians were incinerated by Allied bombing a lot of this was going on while Jews were being moved around to various camps……………..the point is war is hell why it is ONLY about the sufferings of one group. Daniel I am sure the suffering of your family is very real but is the suffering of a German mother or a Japanese any LESS real. This is so obvious yet their suffering is minimized into nothing. Do you think Japanese mothers woke at night thinking about children incinerated by nukes…………
Quote:- “since I am 100% Irish.”. What IS Irish???? … isn’t it a sub culture of the Gaelic tribes, and as far I know, they extend from some of the people in the highlands of Scotland, the Welsh, parts of Cornwall, north west tip of France and Galithia in the very north west of Spain.
I doubt there is a pure bred among us … Oh! baring Guru … who’s roots stem back to Downton Abbey … and from my seat at the table; it shows. 🙂
Jack
If I may say, amidst the serious stuff here, and liked what Gretchen said, I use slow cook for split pea. Larry, and Guru I cooked carrots and celery and zucchini, then add frozen spinach and petite froz. peas and chicken broth. Then add lentil pasta I’ve simmered separately. So much for recipes. Larry, know what you mean about we need someone to care about us. I think it’s vital for all of us, especially during rough times. Hope you feel better and soup makes you feel homey.
S
(using 2^7=128)
So if my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was Jewish and all of my other 127 ancestors were gentile, I would still be considered Jewish even though I am only 1/128th Jewish by blood.
Conversely, if 127 out of 128 of my last seven generations of ancestors were all Jewish, making me 127/128th Jewish by blood I would still be considered a gentile because my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was not Jewish.
Ouch. This rule creates some even more harrowing potential examples than I originally thought.
OK, I’ll shut up now,…..but….wow…Where did this rule come from?
Sylvia and UG, I feel like flying down an inviting myself to dinner at your place. Also starting to feel like making home made soup. Sounds nourishing and comforting to do.
Yes Larry, like in Seinfeld’s episode where people lined up around the block knowing the goodness of homemade yummy soup, though not happy with the server. Will keep it on simmer for ya. And have a good cooking project in your kitchen too.
S
Having a candle or fireplace going also helps. Your food additions sound very good, Sylvia. A fireplace with a small cauldron of soup on a metal spit above the fire would work wonders on cold winters, etc.
Maybe a little herb garlic buttered toasted bread for Old World soup dipping instead of crackers. Mmmmm, mmmm.
…a little olive oil in the soup, a little Ken’s Steak House sweet Vidalia onion dressing mixed in the broth…
Chocolate Raspberry Cheesecake delectably paired with my famous pure spring water Costa Rican coffee for dessert
Guess we must have a chef in our midst. As for me, time to tend the for-now-bland split pea.
S
Stop it. My life devoid of herb garlic buttered bread, cheesecake and Costa Rican coffee is feeling even more bland than it did this morning. 🙂
I got through a couple of hours of exercise and stretching at the gym this afternoon. I feel better about myself for doing it, and will feel stronger for it. I’m glad I persevered, because self-discipIine and perseverence are what it’s going to take to get me out of this hole.
I just finished watching the movie Bridge of Spies with Tom Hanks, on Itunes. After days of precarious but successful negotiations in East Germany during the cold war, near the end of the movie the Tom Hanks character returns home to his wife and kids in the US. I was surprised how I broke out into crying here. He had a home to return to and a family who cared about him. I used to once, but now I have no one to come home to. I could die and probably it would be days before anyone, likely people at work, noticed my absence. There is such a void in me, such a void in my life that I need to fill. Seeing it makes me not want to try, but feeling it makes me understand it’s origin in the first place and makes me want to win out over it.
UG and Sylvia, I could hug you for your comfort soup recipes.
Ted – so good to hear from you – way up there in the horrid crap. So Refreshing!
Gretchen you stand up for ALL of us who are absolutely sickened by the ignorant, arrogant, cruel and uneducated rants by Patrick. The merry-go-round of spewing forth, reveling in the conflict and attention, fake 2 second attention span of remorse – all before the re-load and repeat has gone on for years now… Why even his threats of leaving the blog are false and full of shit – unfortunately.
Uneducated?
In the last 4 months I have read
“The Chief Culprit” by Victor Suvorov. A Russian intelligence officer who worked until Stalin and Kruschov for about 40 years. The ‘chief culprit’ in his opinion was Stalin who had a plan for ‘world revolution’ of Communism and fomented a lot of wars to achieve it
“Stalin War of Extermination” by Joachim Hoffman. A German historian about their war in Russia and the barbaric behavior of the Russians (Communists)
“Hitler’s War” by David Irving. A British historian who is well recognized as a serious and fair writer. Believed too much in the holocaust only gradually realized there was nothing to support it
“Breaking the Spell” by Nick Kollerstrom. The most readable and accessible book on the ‘holocaust’ and probably the best place to start
Germar Rudolp’s ‘scientific’ book about the walls in Auschwitz and how the ‘human gas chambers’ contained NO evidence of hydrogen cyanide gas unlike the de-lousing chambers that did
Germar Rudolp’s anthology ‘Dissecting the Holocaust” about 15 different authors from all over Europe. The BEST book and the most complete on the subject. This is over 500 pages of very small print
During this time I have read several other books including Kollerstrom’s on the London Tube bombing “Terror on the Tube” a marvelous and even moving book
Synthetic Terror” by Webster Tarpley……………….a profound book on 9/11
David Ray Griffin’s “The new pearl habor” about 9/11 again
“The Controversy of Zion” by Douglas Reed. A massive book about the role of the Jews in history
9/11: Finding the Truth” by Andrew Johnson. An excellent book about how the 9/11 ‘truth movement’ got corrupted and in the end became part of the ‘cover up’
“So I suppose we didn’t go to the Moon either” a collection of essays on different ‘conspiracy’ type subjects a very enjoyable read and an easy place to start
I might have missed one or two and now I am REALLY looking forward to “Where did the Towers go?” by Judy Wood. I do believe this has the goods on 9/11 unlike the other 2 mentioned even though they were very interesting and informative in different ways
Also watched loads of youtube videos about holocaust, WW2, moon landing, 9/11
Oh I forgot another book “The Life and Death of Paul McCartney” by Kollerstrom. A totally fascinating read I loved it
And that’s in about the last 4 months …………………but I understand Leslie I am ‘un-educated’ unlike you who has read what? Do you care to say?
Jack, I do think it is possible to become indifferent to name calling. Possibly it just doesn’t push your buttons. At the same time I once heard something that really resonated but unfortunately I can’t remember who said it. Anyway it was a black man being interviewed on the use of the “n” word. He said he clearly didn’t like it when white people used that word but he also did not like it when members of his own race used it. When the interviewer asked him why he said ” because that was often the last word a black man hears before he was lynched”. I do think words can hurt particularly young people. It is also true that these words are often used in anger. The message of course is that it’s bad to be these things associated with the name calling. If nothing else that’s not the message we want to send. Bottom line I think we can learn to speak to each other with some measure of respect. At least I hope so! Gretch
Gretchen: In essence I agree with all you say here; BUT I do have a caveat for myself which goes wqy back into my early twenties. Since that time and the lectures I attended at Regents cresant in London, my mind was into how and why the messages from those lectures did not have a universal appeal
I suppose I was lucky in more than one respect, one being that my mother so loved my fatheer and when she became pregnant with me, felt I (that first baby) was HIS baby. The only sad bit about that pregnancy was that her dearly beloved father committed suicide from a very severe and chronic asthma that he’d suffered all his life, and at that point had had enough and wanted an out. My mother told me years later “I refused to greive my father’s death because of the baby inside me; (me). Oh!!!! that she had known that her greiving her fathers death would have been way less than her inadvertantly tightening up he body in order not to feel the grief.
I know now that her tension made the womb way less attractive for the fetus me. Therapy wise my problem has never been with females, but the desperate need to reach my daddy.and symbolically I see that as the main scours of my homosexuality. However, luckily for me I also never unduly worried about being different when I was a very young child. For a reason that I have not figured out, I actually revelled in my differnce. Sort of felt to be above it all, which further precipitated my difference.
I say all this to put it out there how things as I now see were for me, and perhaps some insight for others as to the kind of person I am. Lastly; the major benefit I feel is that I did not feel the need to DEFEND my differences. If that makes me a total freak … so-be-it. I do have someone that really cares about me and at 83 I suspecxt I am the senior patient on this blog.
Jack
Thanks Leslie and Sylvia, how are you Leslie and hello to Barry! Gretch
Hi Gretchen!
I am doing well thanx. Our youngest (23 year old) son just moved out last Sunday. He was/is so excited to get his own place and life. We are so excited for him and miss him! We have been lucky to have had a child or children with us for the past 26 years!
A dear primal friend has helped me get in touch with the sad part too – as is so important. Easy to get caught up in the fun of new phases in all our lives but saying good-bye to that life together that was, is hard… I loved being a Mom. I loved that I knew how to do that without passing on all my damage – thanks to having started therapy prior to their births and to having it as a part of my life throughout all our ups and downs and spins around :).
I love our sons and how individual they are as they continue to pursue their own interests in sports, music and education all while having friends, girlfriends and jobs. It amazes me actually.
Probably 2 weeks ago I happened upon your Barry’s brilliant “Remembering Summer” article again and re-reading it was great! There is so much more there than all the truths about the actual retreats – wonderful humour of course with it being Barry 🙂 – with even more. Would you please post it here again?
ox L.
Something’s really wrong here. I mean, really. Leslie, you brag about having several kids yet you go after me over that trivial wine ad with the most minor of sexual innuendos?
I feel manipulated & bullied around by what you did when you complained to me about that ad, especially since I was re-posting it at Otto’s request.
I don’t enjoy being bullied around (including by our very own prodigal son Patrick).
So how did I ‘bully you around’ and please can we kind keep it to say the last year.There MUST be some kind of ‘statute of limitations’ on a lot of this stuff lol. it’s an irony to me that primallers SAY they are all about ‘getting over’ things and yet the main purpose of most of it seems to be to explicitly NOT get over things. No wonder they worship the ‘holocaust’ a classic stuck in time don’t EVER get over it type of syndrome. And Gretchen is like a duck to water on that one. Accident? I don’t think so it is a very destructive mind set and she has found her perfect example to ‘worship’. The ‘practice’ of primal therapy as it has evolved keeps going in the same kind of way, recrimination, lack of ‘understanding’ blame, only see one’s one side of an issue. Could fill a dictionary with this stuff.. Of course IF someone WAS to really ‘get over’ something then no more business. A friend of mine said about this there is a kind of inverse relationship between the ‘success’ of a therapy and it’s business success. The MORE it does NOT work the more ‘repeat/retreat business you are going to get.
Guru – You say ‘don’t’ as if it is a current thing. About that ‘ad’ I was just joshing you as you promised to sort of lay it all out but then you totally ‘disappeared (wouldn’t be the first time that happened)
It seems to me Guru that you seem to be a bit ‘cowardly’ so even now when dealing with Leslie you have to drag me into it as some kind of all purpose ‘hate figure” Well that does not ‘scare’ me or bother me anymore. Also I notice yesterday you seem really careful not to be associated with me except as peripherally as possible. Whatever I have nothing left to lose here and I might as well say what strikes me………I really don’t need your ‘support’ I don’t think you are actually capable of ‘supporting’ much. Too busy dreaming about making money and like a good primaller ‘blame’ it all on something you don’t even remember.
About that ‘ad’ BTD you put it on there and Leslie objected does this need to drag on ‘underground’ for months and when you finally ‘surface’ you STILL have to somehow drag me into it.
No, Patrick, you have the intent of my message completely mistaken. What I was trying to say is that I don’t enjoy being bullied around by anyone. It sucks!
I said (including our prodigal son Patrick) because of your overall blog reputation and opinions formed by others. I’ve already gotten over the other stuff long ago.
Sorry Guru – it seemed I jumped the gun on that one. I feel ‘jumpy’ like just about anyone might ‘jump’ on me. Bring it on myself…………whatever
On a different tack I saw this word in the Irish paper that I had not seen before. It was “cry-bully” A bully who ‘cries’ also. Maybe that’s me in some ways
I do feel this ‘bully’ thing can be over done, like Gretchen might talk to me about ‘hate’ that’s why I tried to make the point yesterday calling someone a ‘holocaust denier’ could also be seen as ‘hate speech’ to kind of use their own jargon against them. Especially is someone who then tries to ‘explain’ himself …………too late he is a’holocaust denier that could for sure be called ‘hate speech’ though I do not like to talk that way
Same with ‘bully’ ‘cry baby’ etc etc…………….they are all JUST ‘words’ and can be and are twisted and misused. Maybe ‘crooked thinking’ lol
Patrick: Well, you talk about my not supporting you very well, yet I just don’t want to touch this Holocaust issue with a 10 foot pole. You’re on your own with that one. It feels like bad Karma to me to argue against people who may have already been wounded by it.
How so much wealth came into the hands of Jewish people is an interesting topic to me, though. Yes, I say this fully understanding there are plenty of Jews in dire straits as well (I personally knew a couple).
Although I’ve never been to Israel, I read a lot of comments that American Jews are far different in many ways than Israeli Jews. I’ve often wondered if the American Jews are more “money oriented” than the Israelis. I really don’t know.
Guru – I don’t expect ‘support’ on that one and to be fair to you you kind of stay ‘neurtal’. That is already pretty good imo.
Quote:- “Something’s really wrong here. I mean, ” What do you really mean … are you the arbitrator as to the righteousness and the wrongteousness of this blog. Godo help us if that’s the case.
Jack
I know the Xanax has kicked in because Jack is sweetly amusing now.
yes, such wrongteousness!
I don’t believe you.
Jack
That Xanax pill knocked me out cold for 4 hours. I just woke up.
I contend you might well have been knocked out before taking that pill.
Jack
You wrote:
“I contend you might well have been knocked out before taking that pill.”
You really scored a knockout with that one, Jack. Nice work.
Thanks for the compliment, but I didn’t feel I did the knockout. I’m not that smart.
Pleased you saw the humor in it
Jack
There is the ‘contending’ as in arguing etc (always) then the ‘you might well’ that is the ‘out’ the escape clause if he is ever challenged on anything, there are several other versions of this like the word ‘seemingly’ or ‘it’s my feeling’ something that can’t be argued with. So he STARTS an ‘argument’ and then quickly builds an ‘escape clause’ in case someone bobs him in the face and then delivers the ‘blow’ or the ‘hit’. So let’s do this again 1. announce an argument or a fight. 2. build an escape hatch to avoid any consequence for himself. 3 deliver the hit.
I have seen this so many times over and over again…………………one might have thought “Jack would have got to that feeling” …………..well no…………..that kind of ‘analysis’ is ignored all under the aegis of ‘i’m just expressing my feeling’ which I suppose is true. The feeling being something like………………I start fights but I am really a coward who has a path to run away to safety no matter what happens and then once that’s all set up I deliver a blow or what I think/feel is a blow
Sounds like some schoolyard situation a long time ago……………..not the kind of person I would want as a friend……………can a person like that BE a friend……………not to me.
Is this a joke Ug? Are you trying to provoke me to answer you? I am stunned by your inane post. You mean because I have had sex and birthed children I should not call you out on posting sexist material for the 2nd time on the blog. That you see it as the most minor of sexual innuendos can’t be true. Although you asking me to ask my husband how he felt about the ad – was from back in the dark ages too. That’s the thing – its 2016 now.
Not a joke at all. It was unfinished business that needed to be finished. I even had a long talk with Gretchen and others about it; I really do view it as trivial and it seriously left me wondering why you were so jumpy about it.
If the roles were reversed and such an advertising innuendo was placed by women upon a man, I would have shrugged it off and said to myself, “What’s the big deal?”
If you think I am coming out of the dark ages over something that occurred less than two months ago, what would you call all this blog fighting fating back to early 2014 over what happened 72 years ago in WW2? That some serious cobwebs in the attic action there too, isn’t it?
…(correction)..blog fighting dating back to…
Ug – I am saying your attitude of not realizing how the ad is insulting to women here on the blog is dated. It does not shock me – just seems strange that you think posting it here twice is appropriate. As I said before e-mailing it to your friends makes more sense to me.
OK Leslie, thank you for a more civilized response. Here is a very serious question for you, though: Why is there a young woman actually doing the ad? If it is insulting to women, why did she not refuse the job on principle? For all we know, she might have enjoyed playing the part.
It’s hard for me to see the potential reactions of hundreds of different invisible people reading the blog when there is a woman right in front of me in the advertisement appearing to have a jolly time of it.
I just feel like I am being painted in one broad stroke as a general misogynist brashly out to insult all women. I can’t please 100% of the people 100% of the time, I guess.
I just posted the clip a second time because it would have been a big hassle for both Gretchen and I to track down Otto’s email address (assuming Otto would even want to give his email to me at all since we are not associated in any way other than the blog).
Ok Ug. I’m glad we can converse. I can see where things can be confusing at times – not just for you but for everyone and I include myself in that too.
Why did the woman do the ad? To make money, to get noticed and get attention perhaps.
To have/create a laugh – not realizing how we (women) can sabotage our efforts to not be objectified. Do women take advantage of men too? Yes.
I made more money as a barmaid than my job with college and university degrees. Why is that? Where are our societal values?
Words, images, behaviours etc. can hurt. Although Jack said he is not bothered by being subjected to the horrid taunts of FAGGOT etc. I know he knows and emphasizes with the many young people who kill themselves or think of it everyday rather than face a life being gay in our world today. There are women who are hurt & killed continually in sexual & violent assaults.
I’m sure you think this is way heavier than you think it should be. I am not saying this is where you were going or doing or are – just writing my view today.
I am a victim of sexual assault and work with youth who have been and some who continue to be.
It is shocking how in a room full of women/ or here on the blog there are usually so few who have not known sexual assault/abuse.
I just returned from my mom’s for the weekend as she was recently sexually assaulted by her close friend’s 68 year old husband! My mom is 86 years old and did nothing wrong. The fall-out from this is probably beyond what any of us could imagine – except for Gretchen and Barry B.
I am including another heavy – an article that has some good stuff about women’s conditioning for all of us to ponder.
https://janeeatonhamilton.wordpress.com/2016/02/05/the-preludes-to-assaults/
L
Leslie, good to hear of this latest stage of your life… 😀
I can’t find Barry’s original ‘Remembering summer’ as yet, but while looking for it found and re-read ‘Generosity’.. it’s noticeable to me how I’m more open and able to get what Barry says.
Thanks Jo!
Just read Barry’s “Generosity” and then that led to Gretchen’s “Simplicity”.
Great way to start the day !! We are on Part 5 of “Remembering Summer” here so just go back to the 1st posting of it in ‘Recent Posts’, just above ‘Recent Comments’ at the top
of this section.
What is new with you?
ox L
What’s new, Leslie, well-I had a chunk of time in LA in December, sooo good to see people!! Here in uk I’m playing tennis four times a week now, and feeling accepted by the club members. I’m also on a dating website, and have had a few dates with a couple of men, which came to nothing…so up and down feelings in that regard! I guess That generally overall I’m doing alright.
I finished ‘Housekeeping’ a while back…so bleak :….., so descriptive…thank you:)
I’m enjoying re-reading these posts😉
I’m not sure, Patrick, what you mean by Jewish people keeping themselves so ‘separate’, and particularly how that, as you say, caused the world massive problems. My mother and her family were German, felt German, adored German culture and fought for Germany. Jews in England fought for England, those in Poland fought for Poland, those in the US fought for the US, etc. All of those I mentioned were well ingrained into their respective societies. Perhaps you’re referring to the ultra-religious Jews who dressed differently and were very adamant in their attempts to preserve their religious identity.
Although I can speak only for myself, I don’t remember anyone here denying that German or Japanese civilians suffered greatly during WW2, only that, as I’ve written here before, the Jews and Gypsies weren’t just your ‘regular’ civilian casualties of war the way other civilians in the countries that participated in that war were, because their destruction had nothing to do with winning a war, was carried mostly after the military battles were won by the Germans, and were part of a hateful racial ideology.
It also isn’t clear how exactly the US is, as you say, strangled by Jewish influence, and why you think any of US actual problems are not addressed. For example, in recent years troops were returned home from Afghanistan, a deal was struck with Iran, and there were major changes in policies of health, the economy, the environment and immigration. We can debate if these were sufficient or good or not, but saying that any of the actual problems are not addressed in ridiculous. Connecting this false allegation to some Jewish ‘strangle’ may explain why you concoct that allegation.
Jewish Americans comprise roughly 2% of the country’s population, yet 40% of American billionaires are Jewish.
I don’t want to get too deeply into this topic right now, but there’s a starting point.
Ironically, as I pointed out some months ago, Bernie Sanders is also Jewish and he is railing against the oligarchs and wealth/power inequality in the US.
So, the point being…? What is the meaning of this fact (if it is in did a fact)?
Patrick mentioned that the US is being strangled by Jewish influence, right? He who has the gold, rules? In light of this I thought it worth pointing out that Jewish Americans comprise less than 2% of the country’s population, yet make up 40% of the country’s billionaires.
So, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying:
1. 40% rules over the 60% which is somehow strangled by those 40%
2. There is something specifically Jewish about that rule. I mean that of all the other facts the fact that these people may be Jewish has specific consequences to the US, that this ethnic characteristic of theirs plays a decisive role in their presumed rule, rather than other characteristics, for example the characteristic of belonging to a particular sector (like the financial sector, government, industrial sector, etc.).
This is a delicate and complex matter, Daniel. I wanted to post those statistics so that people can draw their own conclusions as to whether they should mean anything.
More to the point, I am hesitant to become embroiled in such discussions for the time being. Lots of Jews do live in poverty or middle-class while there seems to be a subset of the ethnic group that is much more voraciously avaricious than normal.
Patrick might be able to look into this further if he wants. All I do is cook beans and brussels sprouts.
One possible explanation comes from this link surrounding the Tom Perkins controversy a couple years ago: http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2014/01/25/putting-tom-perkins-comments-into-context/
Here is the excerpt that caught my eye:
“Jewish people weren’t persecuted merely for their financial successes and it’s total mythology to believe all Jewish people are wealthy despite our population over-indexing in education, arts and wealth. Jews were persecuted for being different. The sort of mindless intolerance that I see lobbed today against Muslim people, African Americans, gay couples and others.
Jews followed their own rituals that made them seem “strange” to gentiles. Jews were excluded from trade guilds across Europe for hundreds of years which made it impossible for Jewish people to have a normal, stable income from the most important jobs of those era. Because they couldn’t have “normal” professions they become traders, peddlers, market makers and financiers.
One only need watch Downtown Abbey to see what the wealthy classes of Europe thought of “businessmen.” We were hardly people of society. Study the origins of the retail sector and you’ll see Jews who emerged from market stalls like Marks & Spencer or Neiman Marcus. Read about the Schmatta business to learn one instance where Jews became great entrepreneurs out of need. As they say, “Necessity is the Mother of All Invention.”
Jews weren’t persecuted for being rich. Jews were scapegoated whenever countries had economic problems simply because they were different and were an easy target for political leaders. It’s a societal consequence when times turn bad and people affected look for somebody to blame.”
This passage was well-said enough for me to repost here for further consideration.
You might be interested to read “Yiddish Civilization. The Rise and Fall of a Forgotten Nation”. It cut through the myths I’d been brought up with and filled in the gaps for me a decade ago when I was reading a lot of history about Europe, the Middle East, and Russia trying to understand how we arrived at the current political and social environment in economically dominant northern hemisphere nations.
The book does sound interesting, Larry, and thank you for the suggestion. I don’t think I am prepared to read something like that right now, though. I will put the title in my scrapbook file where I keep my miscellaneous life info. I’m too spent to read another entire book at the moment.
It is only 311 pages, UG. The Irish Times says it is “Informative and very interesting”, if that endorsement means anything to any self-professed experts who dismiss the book at a whim without knowing anything about it.
Guru,
Besides this passage which I like, so what if there are quite a few Jewish billionaires and millionaires? Good for them. I’m sure some of them, although not all, give their money away to good causes. It’s up to voters to elect politicians who will promote a more progressive tax code and other policies to do something about economic inequality.
No need to respond; I just wanted to make this one point.
Phil
I think the link in my comment is broken,
so here it is again.
Daniel – you deserve a thoughtful reply so maybe to-morrow when I am less ‘jumpy’.I like the way you KEEP ‘talking’ that to me is a great quality.
Daniel – this subject gets a bit ‘big’ and we inevitably get lost in generalities. Plus Margaret is so bored with it and pretty soon probably will be calling for me to be ‘banned’ again esp if I say what I really think/feel so I dunno it feels a bit limited what I can say or want to say
But and I do remember this about you from the Summer of 2014 when Israel was committing another war crime on the native people that have lived there forever you have a kind of neutral ‘what us?’ or ‘who me?’kind of attitude Or you could not accept that Israel was based and built on ‘racism’ If you are so ‘innocent’ of the real world I cannot prove it to you. It such a neat trick build your own country ON racism but be SO quick to call any kind of normal self assertion by others AS ‘racism’.
I would suggest you read “Controversy of Zion” by Douglas Reed. Reed’s is an interesting case he was a well known and respected British journalist working in Germany in the 1930’s he had personally met I believe the Big 3 Churchill, Hitler and Stalin. He was NOT a ‘fan’ of Hitler to the point he quit his job for the London Times in protest of their and British in general leniency towards what he saw as the dangers of Hitler’s expansionism.In his book he does not have a good word to say about HItler if anything he says Hitler’s took his ‘master race’ from the meme of “God’s chosen people” already an incipient ‘racism’ there………
Anyway it’s a big book about 600 pages (I got in on Kindle for $10.00) and goes through Jewish history ALL the way back from Babylonian Captivity etc. He makes a compelling case the tribe of Judah DO believe in ‘separation’. It is integral to them and the deepest part of their identity. And well their history…………….kind of gets worse from there or very often gets worse for their neighbors!! To me that is a more ‘real’ picture that the ‘politically correct’ versions portrayed here this morning (or any morning anywhere) by Guru, Margaret and Larry. And most everywhere else all the time in almost all papers at least in the West…………..problem is it is basically NOT true.All this business about how they were not allowed in certain professions that is true but as Jack would say as an ‘effect’. WHY are they barred? Could it be because they abused their position in many respects……………yes!
Now again I will admit or agree that itself has another ‘effect’ it makes the Jews wary and with good reason. In the end can we ever un-entangle who ‘started’ it. Maybe not and really I am not so interested in history except as a guide to the present day. And yesterday on TV marches/riots all over Europe about “Muslims” and I think well ‘perfect Jewish agenda’ now the Christians and Muslims fight each other and they are both screwed. In Dublin (Ireland) there were marches and ‘counter’ marches. People at each other’s throats no Jews to be seen anywhere but it is a ‘hidden hand’ By their actions they have made the ME unlivable for so many people there they chase them to Europe and of course the Europeans are so stuffed to the gills about ‘neo nazis’ etc they CANNOT assert themselves. Like Gretchen people will be down on them by NOON calling them ‘morons’ and ‘imbeciles’ and ‘neo nazis’. Sad and mad world.
Reed’s book makes this Jewish ‘separation’ seem a truly malign force in the world and his book was written in the 1950’s and he predicted more and more wars and mayhem as a result of them gaining Palestine and so it has come about. And I fear the worst is yet to come, they will not rest until Iran is ruined maybe Russia after that. To me “Jewish separation’ and ‘specialness’ is a truly malign force and all the kind weak political correctness we have read here this morning is just so much froth and repetition of standard propaganda the people in the West are now full of. People are literally brain washed and of course they get upset if that is pointed out to them. People are mostly just sheep……………….
This is one of the super rare occasions I’ve had to reach for 0.25mg of Xanax. I prefer being completely med-free in every way, shape, and form. I am disappointed.
Actually it’s 0.125mg….a 1/4mg pill cut in half
I have long contended that all cultures tend to be somewhat isolationist in nature. I know my own culture does the same. However, I personally find culture to be counter productive to being myself. I don’t want to be representative or represented by my supposed culture. It is a pure accident that I was born British or of the so called Western Culture.
I will forever strive to be JUST me. Be that good, bad or indifferent.
Jack.
Right. Just be yourself, Jack.
Thanks John. How are you doing???? Good to know that you read the blog at least.
I still remember that poodle dog picture that you dug up from somewhere all dolled-up and saying:- “Be yourself”. Jim and I still laugh over that.
Jack
All is well, Jack. Fondly remember that “be yourself” moment we had at that long ago retreat. Enjoy your input on the blog. By the by, got you by 3 years, just celebrated number 86.
John: And there was me thinking I held the age number. Ah well I suppose second place has some value; cept who knows another may jump in there.
I remember quite a few events when you came in with Vivian holding the cake and I thought it was for someone else. Quite a moment for me, as well as reaching that three score number.
Hope you put your twopenuth in from time to time. I take it you’re still in the land of “luck”
Jack
As a brief addition to the Tom Perkins link I provided above, I am reminded of my own Catholic upbringing. I used to receive lots of Christmas presents when I was little, and there was always this overhang of guilt that I received so many presents. My cousins and their mother would come along and felt I had too much all to myself with my big pile of toys, so under some form of psychological duress they would pressure me into giving away several of my toys.
I was conditioned that way by my father’s family from the time I was little. Perhaps it was the Catholic way of feeling guilty for having too much and that’s what kept me down.
What would happen if a billionaire had this pile of presents? Would they say to the cousins, “How dare you even question my pile of presents much less touch them or take them? BACK OFF!!” Maybe this extraordinarily selfish behavior is an absolute necessity to be a big shot in today’s dog-eat-dog world:
“I may have too much, but I’ll take my chances, cause God stopped keeping score.”
> Guru, do you call them voraciously avarious just because they were successful working with money?
> would you like to be referred to like that, or your family if being into the money business?
> not saying most are not voracious in that sector, but to glue it onto an ethnic backgroud seems not that neutral really.
>
> one factor might be that in many countries laws were installed at some point limiting Jewish people to only work in the financial field, as that was prohibited by catholic church to their members, they could not earn money by lending it out to gain some.
> so they were simply often forced into that sector and than were smart enough to be successful, like some people I know would also like to be..
> this all is feeling a bit like some waste of time and energy, except for Daniels comments which are always worth reading.
> glad I worked up my way through the 33 comments of this morning, deleting a lot of them while skipping through them as quickly as possible..
> felt too much like some kind of pre-school playground in a bad sense..
> time for other things now here, I mean here for me at home.
> one thing that remained kind of vague was what upset you so much Guru, to need the Xanax??
> M
> UG,
> that was a good quote you posted, I had just sent in mine about the Jewish people being forced into finance business but yours might appear before mine does on the blog..
> so we are on the same wavelength here.
> M
Margaret:
Yes, I have posted something very similar to what you explained to me. Right now I am just tired after posting to Leslie a minute ago and my mental energy is spent. I want to say some more about the points raised in that quote I posted along with what you explained, but…I just am not ready for that yet.
I took the Xanax because I was suddenly dealing with three potential conflicts at once (Daniel, Patrick, and Leslie).
1/8mg is a super small dose. Xanax works great for anxiety, but the price paid is that the anxiety tends to be slightly worse than what you started with once it wears off. This anxiety feedback loop can be very painful to break when high dosages (1-3mg) are regularly taken and it is why it’s a Schedule IV drug for addiction potential (along with Valium) here in the USA.
I will try to look at the history of Jews and money a bit later, but today is a day of holy observance I must dutifully prepare for and to worship: Super Bowl Sunday.
> just wanted to add that what I said about all the comments except Daniels reminding me of a small children’s playground did not apply to all the comments and everyone really, it was just an overall and too generalized expression of irritation.
> hope not everyone feels targeted.
> and some are only partially, smiley.
> and yes, I know, I am not perfect either, noone has to be.
>
> one thing I’d like to ask though is that when you have a typo somewhere, please do not post a new comment correcting that typo as my screenreader tends to go through the whole tedious cycle of reading the heading of the coment etc etc to then finally say it is really about nothing important, another few precious minutes of my time and too mugh catching of my attention as although I try to ignore the trivial stuff about wordpress it seems imposssible not to pay attention really.
> after 33 comments before breakfast those things tend to irritate me, noone’s fault but just letting people know here..
> we know you know you made a typo, and I know I make them and sometimes am just too lazy to bother correcting them at once..
> M
OK, I’ll try to remember that for the future, Margaret. Sometimes I type things in a hurry and I don’t bother to re-check my post carefully.
> no need for a reply to this one either, but just for the record, Patrick is putting words in my mouth I have never said.
> it is also ironical he complains about generalizations while that is actually one of his major flaws in his reasoning all the time.
> one can for example, like I do to some degree though I admit not to have sufficient information to form a strong opinion about it, oppose the current Israeli political attitude in regard to Palestinians and to the Arabian citizens of the country.
> but it is a major leap and a completely unfounded one to go from there and say all that stuff about ‘the Jews’.
> that is one example of racist prejudice as a true textbook case of blaming an entire group of people to have all the same bad characteristics.
>
> and well, I did read some books as well in my life so far, and as far as what I have read it was not the Jewish people that inspired Hitler but actually Ford, the one of the cars, who before the war already had tendentious publications with strong racist ideas.
>
> please no lecture back about this, and certainly no book titles of holocaust deniers, and I do not understand why Patrick sees that word as an insult to them as isn’t proving that the whole point of what they write?
> but logic seems not a priority there.
>
> guru, thanks for your friendly reply.
> M
In response to no-one and nothing in particular.
Today a couple of feelings going for me and the first is “Feeling so good to be alive” as I sat in the sun with clear blue skies and contemplating some of things going on in my life. The other was how alive the blog is right at this moment. So many comments, all of which I gobble up, and actually feel I learn a lot from them about other peoples and their ideas.
I sure have my own ideas, prejudices and pre-conceived notions about most being discussed, but I don’t, as of now, feel the need to relate my feelings about them. BUT (can’t resist this one). To believe or not believe something is to admit I don’t really know. I have for some time known that I tend to want to use the word with the intent of making believe be closer to knowing that not knowing. Whereas, I’d rather avoid the use if that word An example would be to believe the sun is out there and our little blue planet is flying around it. I have been told so, many many times; but is it so???I I don’t really know. What I do know is that my senses (feelings) would lead me to feel that is true. The only truth I can ever possibly know is what I feel. That is why I have trepidation about “Truth” and “False”, “Fact and fiction”, even “good and bad”, or for that matter “up and down”
Jack
Hi Jack. Talking about belief. I think our unrecognized feelings can make our beliefs inflexible and unchangeable. The more I face or sink into my fears, the more I’m freer to see other sides of things. I no longer feel as threatened by a different point of view, or have too much anxiety or resistance to consider it. I hope that leads to more understanding about others . Anyway, as you’ve said , there are times you just feel good to be alive and feel open to what’s going on around us.
I don’t wish to get into your anti-Israeli arguments, Patrick, although I think most of them are ludicrous, beyond saying that again and again you’re mixing up Israel and Jewish history, even though Israel is but a tiny dot in that history. You do combine the two into a politically driven grand theory where Jews throughout history and up to the present are some kind of a huge octopus with arms all around the globe, sucking it dry and masterminding the clash of countries, societies and civilizations in order to somehow benefit from it.
These ideas, taken right out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the most infamous anti-Semitic document from the 19th century, and very often repeated in Nazi propaganda, mean that Jews are a dangerous enemy of the entire world. From here one need take only a small step to conclude that Jews must be purged from the face of the earth they so greatly endanger.
But I do want to say something about being the so called ‘Chosen People’, because this one is easily misunderstood. To understand this biblical idea one must look for its meaning in the Jewish tradition and theological writings. Oh, I know there are some moron Jews who invest the term with their own personal conceit and arrogance but they too fail to understand its meaning and their beliefs in this matter only attest to their superficiality and ignorance.
Have you ever wandered, chosen for what? Well, the bible is very clear about that: To follow God’s rules, to be what we would call today ‘moral’. And what do the Israelites do at that momentous occasion of first receiving those laws (commandments) on Mount Sinai? They build a golden calf, i.e they don’t follow God’s rules from the very start. From then on the bible is replete with God’s fury over his own choice, and every now and then God wants to get rid of them all. Most of the prophets’ speeches are just about that – either reproaching the Israelites for their immoral behaviors, or pleading with God to forgive them.
So, in Jewish tradition it’s never about being better than anybody else but about doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord, or pretty much to be moral. It is a burden, not a privilege, and as any one of us can confirm it is a heavy burden that we all, like those Israelites, keep coming back to and forth from. It is an eternal mission never fully achieved.
Already getting hot in early February in the San Fernando Valley. I dread it. Good group Friday nite. My first in a long long while. I talked about 3 dead pets and marriage with Z. Felt like at one point that I could shout because the massive amount of pain in the last 2 years has been crippling, but I felt too shy. Only 5 of us cult-members were there besides the cult-mistress and I pretty much knew them all, and at some point I was feeling a little safe, but what can I say. I was scared to go into the group but GB made me feel good by talking to me about pets and kids. No tears until yesterday Saturday when I used the primal room at the end of the hall with music. During Group, we were all looking forward to doing the cult-thing, you know, with the kool-ade, but a raccoon had crawled into the attic and had hoarded said Koolade in his new hiding place, and then drank too much of it, and now his stinking corpse is impossible to bear, for those with sensitive noses. You know I am kidding, hopefully not saying stupid shit like I am prone to do. I felt I was being so negative when I talked in group; group members were cool with it. Negative talk is my Grandma,I think she was always muttering to herself, or complaining to me, or something, seemed very unhappy, and she had every right to be, Great Depression happening and then her husband dying during that Depression, 3 daughters to raise on her own, and she had to do menial jobs to survive with my mon and her 2 sisters in a hard and cruel world, and then her daughter/my mom died of Polio so she had to raise me and my brother when she was 50 and probably had had enough shit by that point in her life, but I guess religion kept her going. Later that night, I was overly sensitive and I thought Z was being negative when I said I was going to walk the dog, and she said You already walked her today, which struck me as a negative comment and it angered me and so I reacted, why was she saying that. And so we argued for a minute or 2. Anyway, cried a lot with the music on Saturday, about the losing the pets, and then it segued into the loss of my great life at age 11 or so when we moved from Hollywood to Long Beach. Losing my good aunt, uncle, and the 4 story brick hotel that they managed, the basement that was under the hotel with smells of sawdust and cheese from being under the Italian deli that also on the hotel, , my 3rd grade girl friend, the Boys Club I would go to in the summer, walking with my aunt and her Chiuauauas down the street, the fig tree in our yard that my brother would climb to scaled the fence that divided our yard from the hotel back yard; even being alone in our house after school, laying on the living room floor reading comic books or watching old movies on the black and white tv. Even being alone was good there, since I knew my aunt and uncle were next door in the hotel, maybe my brother was there with my uncle in his workshop, doing hotel repairs. Then kind of seeing hazily our last day there, and maybe me and my brother piling into the 54 Ford my grandma drove us away in. I saw more memories there, wanted to write this last night but I didn’t get to it. No relief or I don’t know if I got relief. I don’t think I am done with this pain. While crying the pain seems to push up into my head and brains like it is being forced out of my body, and a lot of pressure into my head, maybe my jaws, probably I never was able to say anything about how this move made me feel. Can’t really explain it the sensation, I think that this pushing it is okay and totally organic, and it definitely feels good while crying. Anyway, devastastion is what I felt at this move away from all that was good in my young life.. Blue aint the word for the way I felt. Knocked off my feet. Whipped around by Life again, after loss of mother at age 10 months and the carelessness with which the various parent figures that kept me alive for the next few years. It wasn’t my fault that we had to move from Hollywood, a move that really cemented the crippling of my soul and body to this day. Also, memories of good eating in Hollywood, Sunday dinner in our dining room or going to the Ontray Cafeteria with Aunt, Uncle, Grandma, brother and me, on Sundays. Which I come to feel or see how this hooks into my overeating somehow; it was clearer yesterday . So I wasn’t so hungry today, but I am sure that no permanent cure of eating to drown out my pain will happen. I had a thought today that a memory refresh of this kind could possibly delay Alzheimers, unless of course I have abused the rest of my organs so much in my lifetime, that I don’t make it to Alzheimer-time.
I liked learning lots about you with this post Otto.
L
I am glad everyone is able to get your anger triggered so easily in this blog. Maybe chill out and watch Lisa Lampanelli on youtube. She kids every race and I find this refreshing. Probably some dont see it that way. Racism, sexism, different-personism has surely brought about innumerable horrific acts towards peoples, probably even before we were peoples, if you believe what Jane Goodall and others have observed with chimpanzees in the wild. But it is not like you are sitting in group. You see the person’s name, you can page down if you don’t want to read stuff that makes you feel bad. So I am not sure what is going on with this line of discussion. I think some of us really got fucked over as kids, some more violently than most, and all this discussion seems to be hiding real feelings. Whatever. Z and Kid watch Reality prison shows a lot, which I don’t really like to watch that much, but even though I abhor the cruelty that the prisoners have perpetrated, I think that their terrible childhoods negated any possibility of a normal non-violent adult life.
Plenty of wisdom there, Otto.
Hi Otto, sounds like you’ve really got to some feelings and have progress. Great.
I’ve watched ‘Dog, the Bounty Hunter’ where he supposedly is going after felons who have skipped out on bail and may resist. When he or his wife get them into the car they all react like children, crying to finally a sympathetic ear. They just want to be with their families and not hauled off to a caged life.
Otto,
Sounds like a great group for you the other day. I wish I had a regular group to attend.
You say all this discussion seems to be hiding real feelings, which is probably true. There also can be some truth in the points being made. I don’t want to discuss here my feelings which are coming up and have them ridiculed and invalidated. This isn’t any kind of real group like the one you attended; it can be good for something but to me not so much with way it’s currently been functioning. It has never worked for me to try to just scroll past and ignore certain messages or delete certain emails. I am a fast reader and usually can see what they are about with one glance, and then it is already too late.
Phil
Here are more statistics for you to ponder, UG and anyone interested in this stuff. From the Nobel Prize website, “Between 1901 and 2015, the Nobel Prizes and the Prize in Economic Sciences were awarded 573 times to 900 people and organizations. With some receiving the Nobel Prize more than once, this makes a total of 870 individuals and 23 organizations.”
Quoted in Nicolas Wade’s 2006 book “Before the Dawn, Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors”, “Jews and half Jews, who make up about 0.2 percent of the world’s population, have won a total of 155 Nobel prizes in all fields” writes the anthropologist Melvin Konner in 2003. (There were likely more between 2003 and 2015 – Larry).
I’m very grateful to all peoples and societies who have contributed to our collective knowledge and wisdom.
Larry: As Arthur Janov has kindly and insistently pointed out, our brains are exquisitely complicated and we all turn into empty dried-out skulls and skeletal husks eventually, so it won’t matter who won what and where.
If it would make everyone feel more comfortable for me to say Jews generally are better than the rest of us, that’s fine, I’ll play along with it, OK?
I just have to focus on other things in general.
While we are alive it does matter what kind of life we make, UG. It is the primary preoccupation.
Please say whatever you want. Diverse informed opinions add to discussion and open minds, if we are willing to be open.
Who says they “are generally better than the rest of us”. I’m saying there is so much uninformed negativity on the blog these days, pitting “them” against us, that I want to insert another angle, perhaps add some balance and mention I’m grateful for the contributions of all peoples to our collective wisdom and welfare, and from what I read the Jewish people have contributed their share or more. It’s just more information and ‘statistics’ to ponder.
Larry:
Say whatever I want? OK. Menial chores start to infuriate me after a while. They leave me tired, aching pain all the time, and unwilling to put up the good fight in life any longer. This is where multi-million dollar economic damage lawsuits come in. If I had been the lucky recipient of one of those, I could hire a housekeeper much as my ancestors did before my own tragic downfall. With a helpful housekeeper in tow, I would have more energy to actively and intellectually explore what you are proposing to explore here.
OK UG. Sometimes you (as do others) bring up questions and topics that sometimes I want to address, but not if it makes you want to reach for the Xanax. I am the same in that there are times when I don’t want to or can’t put the time or energy into the discussion happening on the blog.
Sorry.
Hey Leslie, Wow how exciting! The last little bird has left the nest. I do understand it’s a mixed bag, missing them but happy they are making a life. Both your boys are doing so well. You and Barry have a million reasons to be proud. Of course the job is never done but it is also exciting to see what this next chapter brings for you and Barry. Please say hi to him! I can’t wait to see you both – Gretch
Thank you Gretchen!
I do want to mention although great our children did experiment & experience a lot that
kept us awake at night! Lots of bumps along our roads for all of us to survive and learn from in a very real way.
And how true about never being done. I didn’t fully get that til a few years ago. More people get added into the circle too – more people to love and worry about :).
Would love to see you and Barry up here! Imagine how far your American $$ go !!
ox L
Hey John Z., It’s nice to see you hear on the blog ! I hope you are well and maybe you can visit sometime! Gretchen
Gretchen, thank you. Hope all is well with you. Recently, thoughts turned again to those long-ago years at the PI (happens periodically), googled the topic, and found this blog. Look forward to visiting when I next go to L.A., as well as joining in the posts. John Z.
Otto, So glad you came to group. Thanks for your very funny post! Gretch
This is so good to hear, and to know that some children are being supported already in some schools…they are in with a chance for good mental health.
This really is something Jo – when you think of the Royal Family actually being so down- to – earth and addressing emotional/mental health. Children learning to identify and talk about feelings. It is very hopeful isn’t it.
I read about these elementary schools that have special “buddy benches” where if at recess or lunch you feel lonely or want a friend you go sit on the bench and there are volunteer peers who will come to sit with you or perhaps play with you.
4x’s a week for tennis – amazing! So glad for you that you have 2 homes.
ox L.
Yes, hopeful Leslie, and the ‘buddy benches’ is something too.
I believe Nick (Barton) invited her also to be patron for his addiction charity.
I hope you both are able to get to La Casa 😊
Jo: I remember talking to someone last year about Nick working with Kate Middleton, but I was fuzzy on the details as to whether there was an actual collaboration with Action on Addiction.
At the very least it seems apparent that the Royal Family agrees with Nick’s philosophies and they may have actually been influenced by him.
Nick was Chief exec of Action on addiction till the end of last year, and Kate is patron of the organization..
I agree, Nick’s influence is rife in high places…. and “…..Nick has been in a leadership role with Action on Addiction and with one of its predecessors for 26 years and has made not only a massive contribution to the organisation but, of equal importance, to the cause of disarming addiction in all parts of society. We salute him for his amazing devotion and hard work” says the guy who has taken over from him.
I didn’t know all of this about Nick Barton. Great that he’s had such influence.
Maybe there is some hope after all.
Phil
This business about Nick Barton…………first thought I have how come such a ‘believer’ in PT don’t set up something in England and satisfy the thirst of the teeming masses over there. Well I guess there is no longer a great thirst…….. why? Something that was supposed to be so ‘universal’ and yet it can’t seem to get out of LA. What’s up with that?
And then I’m thinking he is great pals with for example the billionaire heiress of the Swedish packaging company and now the Royal Family. And I thought again about how ‘conventional’ primal is or has become. Like can you get more conventional that the future Queen with her dead eyes and fake smile (my take) It seems any kind of ‘revolutionary zeal’ is long gone……………..one reason I kind of wanted to inject it with a bit of “Irish revolutionary zeal” but it seems not to be appreciated.
> Otto,
> very wellwritten and touching comments.
> there does seem some kind of shift to be going on, hopefully at some point you will start noticing some kind of relief.
> hope you keep writing.
> M
> Daniel,
> just read your comment about the word ‘chosen’, thanks for the extra info, it are pieces that fall down for me in a bit of a clearer pattern.
> I have with great pleasure read several books of David Grossman,sometimes hilarious, sometimes heartbreaking, but always so very human and feeling.
> he describes often in a very funny way how (some) Jewish people have a god they argue with all the time, are angry at, bargain with, etc.
> he also mentions the many many rules specially orthodox people have to live by.
> there seem indeed to be huge differences of style between those who live as orthodox and even between those as between any humans the differences are of course many.
> I live between them so I can know.
> I liked the word ludicrous you used for Patricks arguments.
> that might be the best way to look at them probably.
> danger exists of course if people with power would go that way.
>
> I am not saying he is like that, but I hate to imagine what a president like Donald Trump might have for disastrous effects.
> he is clearly so full of himself and so arrogant and demeaning it feels like he is a dangerous man in some ways.
> hope there are enough Americans with a bit of common sense..
> M
Margaret,
I too like David Grossman’s writings very much and think he has a special gift for describing human minds and relationships in a deep and involving way.
While we’re talking about books, I also recently really loved Let the Great World Spin by Colum McCann. There is so much beauty and wisdom in this book. The plot revolves around how an unusual day, the day Philippe Petit high-wire walked between the two tops of the World Trade Center in 1974, changes the lives of some New Yorkers and others they know and don’t know. It’s a great book.
Daniel – a movie was made about that a few years ago which I saw. The guy that did it is ‘impressive’ but I kept thinking to what end? i am afraid of heights also or at least about my only real nightmares (rare thank God) involves being about to fall from a great height (horrible feeling) In that movie once that guy was 1/2 way across I kept thinking ‘you f…..idiot once you get back IF you get back stay the f… there’ And he survived it all I wonder though if something happened to him it seems often ‘daredevils’ do come to grief in the end but I have no actual knowledge about this guy
Thanks Margaret and David for throwing out the names of those authors. I’ve read several fact based books lately, and am looking for a change of pace and the chance to escape into a novel of beauty, wisdom, and humanity.
I saw the recent movie about the French high wire walker. He is still alive. I heard an interview of him on the radio perhaps last autumn. What impressed me watching the movie was how brave he was to pursue his lofty goal, how confident he was in his ability, and how well he was able to control or confront his fear.
He didn’t have his parent’s support to earn a living wire walking. I wonder whether the twin tower walk was a way to vanquish in him their doubts about him. Beyond that though, from the interview he just seems to be a person who believes our life is made of feelings, and we can’t let fear dominate and hold us down.
There is actually an excellent documentary about him called Man on a Wire which won an academy award a few years back. The man did these kind of things in all sorts of places all over the world. There is something fascinating about him.
> could hardly believe my ears when I just heard Donald Trump say that when he gets voted he will not only reinstall waterboarding but much stronger stuff than that as well…
>
> scary, and scary he uses it as a means to gain votes..
> it kind of reflects the darkest side of us humans, wanting deliberately to inflict pain, something I know no anumal species to do.
> M
https://icreate4dogs.wordpress.com/?p=78&preview=true
Sorry, this doesn’t work…having trouble with my website😕
https://icreate4dogs.wordpress.com
Wow! This is amazing art. Seeing La Casa is 2nd best to being there. Feeling your Mum’s distance/annoyance unbelievable!!
You are so talented Jo.
ox L
Leslie, thank you..xo
Jo, I really like these, beautiful!
Phil
Hey Phil- thank you!
Nice, Jo. The pic of you and your Mom looks like your Mom sent you to boarding school to be rid of you for a while.
It started early Larry 😦
Nice. Made me wonder if Talent Night is still on at the institute.
Thank you Daniel.. no, the PI don’t do talent night.
Patrick, a very impressive list of novels that you listed on your Feb. 6th. post in response to being labelled uneducated. How DID you stay awake? Over the years in raising two sons I have read, discussed, memorized and yes, even had dreams about many, many books by Dr. Seuss et. al. Does that make me a child?
I find it telling however that you ignored the ‘ignorant’, ‘arrogant’ and ‘cruel’ missives directed at you by Leslie on Feb. 5th. Does your acceptance of these not trouble you?
I have another question I would like you to consider. In your childhood you hopefully had someone who loved you unconditionally – someone you ran to when you hurt, who you got a hug from when you were sad, whose face lit up when they saw you, who forgave you instantly when you messed up. If you are able to be really introspective, would that caring, loving, accepting individual be happy about, or, probably more importantly, be proud of the person you have become?
Barry – I not only stayed awake but pretty much loved every minute of it. Good or bad I am glad to find things that challenge me and interest me. About the ‘ignorant, arrogant and cruel’ well……………I thought I would just take on one that Leslie mentioned ‘un-educated’ I thought I might be able to deal with that. I think ‘ignorant’ might also be covered kind of in the same way.. As far as arrogant and cruel…………..what can I say it’s Leslie’s opinion/feeling I decided/decide to leave it at that. Should I try to ‘argue’ about it and start a whole other round. I think people me included are a bit exhausted already without making it worse.
As to your second question………..I would say I had that (unconditional love) here and there and from different people at different time (my Grandad, my Dad, my Grandma) that’s probably about it and even them fitudlly I would not say it was something that persisted forever and ever and something I could count on though my Dad was always ‘on my side’ and supportive and I felt he loved me but not in the kind of ‘ideal’ way you describe. Who has that really? some people I suppose (the lucky ones)
So wouid my Dad be proud of the person I have become? I know he felt ‘disappointing’ in me in that I did not pursue a kind of ‘standard career’ like Medicine or Engineering. So overall no he probably would not be that proud of me. But it has taken me a long time to realize the first thing is to please myself so I am not sure that what you mention is a test of anything really. But as far as my ‘fighting’ or ‘standing up for myself” he DID support me in that and I took strength and courage from that but like a lot of things maybe I took a little TOO much (strength and courage) It was a very bid deal for me though I was being badly bullied in school and one day I just got sick of it and erupted and punched one of my tormentors out. I was worried then what my Dad might say but he told me I was in the right and it was important for me to be able to stand up for myself and he even added if I remember that he was proud of me. So maybe that’s one reason now I see no reason to back down from a fight if I feel it necessary
Barry (or anyone else). I am reminded of this song an oldie but a goodie and a sentiment I agree with right now. I would rather please myself than somehow be ‘thought well of’ by others and that includes ‘teachers and therapists’ lol
> Dear Otto,
> was laying on the couch, thinking about what you wrote among other things, and thinking back about my former cat and how I had to let her go about ten months ago.
> I felt there was still something there, and just talking out loud to her immediately took me into the feeling, I only needed to say like two words and started crying deeply for a very long time.
> it still amazes me how much pain is triggered by this, and you had to go through it three times in such a short period of time.
> if you feel bad and would want to cry maybe try talking to them, it sure works for me.
> the pain is crude, not really like most other primal feelings so far, where there was always more feling of relief in the sense of feeling something was falling into place and that being a good thing.
> now with this the pain is prevalent and only rationally I know it is good to go through it, although in a way I also feel it.
> the sadness is just still too big.
> M
> p.s. the crying about what I had to decide for my cat at some point slightly changed into another flavour of hopeless sadness, which seemed more like connected to my own early pain.
> it sounded young, so maybe, as it was just hopelessly sad, it was connected to the weeks I had to remain as a two year old in some kind of orphanage while my mom had to go through an operation.
> having access tothis kind of stuff is a great quality that Primal therapy offers.
> to keep stuff like that inside forever can only be very detrimental to one’s general state of health, also mentally.
> M
John Z. , I’m so glad! – Barry M. , Really interesting post I thought! – Patrick, We can be ourselves, hold on to our beliefs, even fight for them if needed but still be open to the feedback of others. These things can co- exist I think. If we do not allow ourselves to listen to the views of others we are, in a way, saying ” I can never be wrong”. I think we can all agree that is pretty much impossible. I don’t know for sure but I interprete Leslie’s comment to mean that we can’t be truly educated on a subject without reading or studying multiple views otherwise there is no critical thinking involved. We are taking someone else’s views as our own in a sense. When I decided to become a therapist I studied all therapies for instance. Did it make me a better therapist ? I don’t think so actually but it did give me a better understanding of therapy and of Primal. It allowed me a different kind of certainty about what I was choosing to do beyond and in addition to the experience I had as a patient. Gretchen
Hi Gretchen,
Although I agree with what you wrote too, I actually feel that the education that Patrick needs does not come from books. In fact, that he holes up and reads so much and spends so many solitary hours on the computer looks to be the worst thing for him.
He believes he is getting better, and yet all I see is such a downward spiral since the time I first read him on the blog, and met him at the Retreat.
ox L
All of these conspiracy theories are the opinion of a very small minority. These things, of course, are really not in question for almost all people and not even questioned, except possibly vaccines. I don’t want to debate further on any of this. But it is so striking to me the pattern of picking such extreme views. Maybe they are all related and consistent with a certain world view, or are they picked precisely because they are unpopular and extreme? I wonder if there are any conspiracy theories or cover-ups that Patrick would reject. Sightings of Elvis, for example.
Phil
BTW Leslie I don’t spent that much time ‘in front of a computer’ I read actual books remember. Something Phil could really use imo it’s not only his son that needs to ‘break open the books’ lol. He seems stuck in ‘most people think’ mode and though it is really not my place to say it I can see why his son might ‘rebel’ against such ‘knowledge’
BTW Phil you seem to be making some ‘progress’ on the vaccine issue could it be I even have a little ‘influence’…………probably not…….
Well Gretchen that IS what I feel I have been doing! Getting other sides of a story that is. We are all by definition exposed to the kind of ‘standard stories’ why would there be any need to ‘re-study’ them. I have set out to get the other side of some of these stories and my conclusion is a LOT of the standard stories we are told over and over are on some very thin ice indeed. I think this over time has become a bigger and bigger factor we are all inundated by ‘media’ all the time and the techniques of deception/advertising have become more and more sophisticated. It seems ‘lies’ are a very big factor now unfortunately.If we really are in the age of ‘fake terror’ of events that are just staged to appear like ‘terror’ which I do believe we are well that’s kind of a spooky feeling……………I just saw some signs for the LA Marathon and I’m thinking will something ‘happen’ there and then I think probably/hopefully not we have had San Bernadino just recently maybe they will let this one pass…………….actually I don’t like thinking like that just saying though what crossed my mind when I saw the LA Marathon info………………
What an asshole. I have had enough. I drove this person from the valley to culver city so they could do some semi-medical thing. after a long hard day at work. and i never get anything from this person. except when are you going to do this, when are you going to do that? Oh i forgot peanut butter yesterday, can you make another stop on the way home, it will only take a minute. And then::i have an idea, lets do this money thing that i am thinking about, just because i have fucked up our money with crazy ideas like this before means nothing. oh look at that pet store, at least we wont have to be buy catfood packets anymore (for the dead cat). insensitive fucking cunt. You not trying to share your feelings about the cat, if you are trying to, your fucking shorthand way of talking doesnt cut it for me. Even if it is such a fucking big thing for you too. If you cant put some grief tone of voice in what you say, at least put the right words there. like I FEEL BAD (that we wont have to buy catfood packets anymore). or dont say a fucking thing. you DO deserve to be spoken to that way. I go out of my way to take your somewhere in rush hour traffic, you keep mentioning places to pick up something to eat that will take a long time for them to prepare, jesus h christ! I feel bad that i talk to you that way, but you are fucking stupid and annoying. We could listen to the doctor talk show about sex on the radio that happens at this hour as we are driving home but you are such a fucking child that i cannot listen to it with you, you blaming shaming bitch. go fuck yourself. Now the kid wants to borrow the car after he totalled his motorcycle and i had second thoughts, even though he needs to go clean up some law mess from years ago, that i am responsible for because i was a stupid stupid careless father, so i feel bad. he can rent a car or wait a week till i can get off and go with him. I am so fucking tired of this shit. She used to give me sex. now there is nothing to the nth degree. Of course, why would she do that, i dont like her. I dont like her because she gives me nothing. NOTHING but misery. Sure that is the same as my childhood, but this is just as bad. Needy fucking asshole. And then you or i are going to die at some point, and the whole fucking thing is shit. shit shit shit. tired of this fucking shit. Did I mention LONG HARD DAY AT WORK, to put a fucking roof over your non-giving self?
Hopefully not to make things any worse but to try to ‘explain’…………..when I call Jack a ‘rude name’ it is not really meant as meaning anything specific about ‘gay people’ or whatever it is just that a ‘rude name’. And it is schoolyard behavior but from my feeling about it at that time (and who knows in the future those things can never be ruled out)………..schoolyard behavior in that all this ‘quoting back’ he was doing at the time. To be if just felt like being constantly mocked and ‘imitated’. I don’t know about anyone else here but I can remember this ‘imitation game’ where you just repeat and imitate whatever the other child said purely as mockery and total and complete ‘non communication’ and in Jack’s case all the time masquerading as some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make. I appreciate he has kind of left me alone during my latest jihad (lol) maybe he figured I had enough on my hands…………..whatever I appreciate any peace I can get from that quarter and also I suspect because he is mostly in agreement about the bad behavior of Israel. Jack is ‘smart’ is not a fool at all just a little too much on the PR side for me -a ‘salesman’ for himself and primal abolish money HIS VERY OWN ‘theory’ finally at last out from under Janov’s coat tails well not really but something – .But then he calls me a ‘salesman’ well maybe I can be but imo I am typically ‘selling’ more than just myself.my ’causes’ at least the way I see it usually have some concern for others or the ‘general good’ but whatever maybe that is also my Catholic ‘brain washing’ where we were always meant to think of others ahead of ourselves. I thought about that today that is kind of perfect double whammy first off deny the child’s needs and then tell them they should NEVER think or complain about that but ALWAYS think of others first.
Leslie I kind of like that ‘downward spiral’ yeah it’s something like that I have been trying to do I am glad you think I might be ‘succeeding’ lol………I mean a downward spiral out of mediocrity and the kind of middle of the road dog food we are all meant to believe like zika virus and muslim ‘terrorists’ be afraid be very afraid, one thing I read today some ‘scientists’ are thinking of using biting mosquitoes as a way of delivering vaccines……………….now what a ‘cool’ idea that is I mean what could possibly go wrong lol……………
Patrick,
I read that book about HIV that you recommended. I have looked at websites about the other issues which you have talked about. Nothing I have seen leads me to want to do more reading. I haven’t changed my views on vaccines. It’s just that there does seem to be sizable number of people against them. I am open to new information coming out which would be convincing.
You haven’t answered my question about conspiracies and cover-ups. Just out of curiosity are there some you don’t believe in? Some people think the government has covered up evidence of UFOs, for example. What do you think on that one?
Phil
So Phil you have gone from ‘flat earth’ to “UFO’s”…………..meanwhile the only doubt you have on vaccines has to do with “there does seem to be sizable number of people against them” Aren’t you in the medical field in some capacity do YOU have any opinion or feeling if you want Jack’s approval…………what do YOU think or feel if you want Jack’s approval that never seems to come in very much what YOU think I mean……..
Patrick,
Flat earth, UFOs and, Elvis sightings to me are all of comparable quality to the beliefs on your list. My question is,how do you decide which ones to include?
Phil
Patrick,
You should go back and reread that post. I haven’t expressed any doubts at all about vaccines. All I said was that there is a fair number of people opposed to them.
To me, this is at least partly an education problem.
Phil
Quote:- “’…………..when I call Jack a ‘rude name’ it is not really meant as meaning anything specific about ‘gay people’ or whatever it is just that a ‘rude name’.” That does’t quite explain why you do it. To repeat in the hope that something might just penetrate. That is exactly what is meant by crooked thinking a la Thuless. BTW the book is readily available for you to read …. whenever you get to reading something that might, just might, be some thing on the other side of your tracks.
Why am I so important enough to have a whole dissertation written about me. It made good reading for me, after I had deciphered the apparent meaning behind it.
Why is being quoted so irksome for you??????
Jack
My God man do you READ? or are you too busy ‘quoting’ It seems you are because let me quote myself now and this is just continuing the bit you quoted and it is exactly about this why I don’t care for your ‘quoting’ charade
“And it is schoolyard behavior but from my feeling about it at that time (and who knows in the future those things can never be ruled out)………..schoolyard behavior in that all this ‘quoting back’ he was doing at the time. To me if just felt like being constantly mocked and ‘imitated’. I don’t know about anyone else here but I can remember this ‘imitation game’ where you just repeat and imitate whatever the other child said purely as mockery and total and complete ‘non communication’ and in Jack’s case all the time masquerading as some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make”
So there………….happy now……………I have TRIED at least to say what it MEANS to me. I can’t help thinking if you would just pay a little attention and calm down and READ it would save you doing one of what you seem to consider your ‘greatest hits’ (to me it’s just another flop but whatever) about ‘crooked thinking’ and Thouless blah blah. As Guru said one time when you go on about ‘crooked thinking’ it means you have nothing to say except to accuse the other person of not being able to ‘think’ Something that is not worth doing anyway according to yourself….
So maybe you can stop ‘wondering’ now why I don’t like being quoted by you at least from my FEELING. There that should shut you up I am doing things the ‘approved’ way but it probably wont (shut you up about it).
Another quote:- “…….. the other child said purely as mockery and total and complete ‘non communication’ and in Jack’s case all the time masquerading as some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make”” Seemingly according to Phil you seem not able to read either. From what you write on this blog (after initially entering it with hate and venom spewing from your very gut) You now appear to know exactly what goes on in my head, in that I am posing as “some kind of bogus intellectual with ‘points’ to make” I see clearly (me thinks) why you do, but I never get from you, your explanation of why; you introspection.
If I am looking for accolades on this blog, I feel, but for very few instances. I like it when they do appear, but that is not what I like most about blogging. I mostly prefer the reading diverse opinions, and definitely other’s feelings about what took place, and is taking place in their lives. I also love the stimulation from most of this.
Poking you in the sense of Facebook ‘pokes” is my way to get some (perverted) fun and you seemingly get off (whatever getting off entails) on me doing so, as does Guru on lesser occasions. But hey hoo, ‘life’s short ………………..’
Jack
> I think I want to add some words to Leslies list of ‘qualities’
> apart from arrogant and cruel what keeps striking me is the judgamentality, careless and unfounded, demeaning, for example to Phil now and to Larry and others in the past.
> you know as good as nothing about those people yet feel you can label them in an offensive way.
> that seems to be your worst quality to me right now, repulsive to others and blindfolding you mentally, if you jump so quickly to negative conclusions Patrick, and therefor probably sabotaging your social life big time too.
>
> i know it is a defense, have been a bit like that, but more so internally, until I realized myself over and again how wrong I had been so many times and it became clear I was being the stupid one in those cases.
>
> and by the way the buddying with someone you don’t know well at a retreat and often don’t even like at first sight, is a great way to unravel those crippling byaasses and prejudices we mostly use on people we fear who might not like us.
>
> so often I noticed how I had ‘negative feelings’ about someone that I did not know well but that had so far not shown any interest, labelling them with any criticism at hand, to suddenly ‘unfreeze’ once that person unexpectedly smiled or said or did something nice to me.
> all of a sudden opening up to possible connection and feeling the glow of hey maybe that person is nice, showed repeatedly what a strong kind of defense ‘disliking ‘ can be, when there is little knowledge or sound experience of interaction.
> just saying.
> M
Hard to believe you had a bit of those negative characteristics, Margaret. I guess the difference between you and Patrick is that you have been brave enough to be introspective and willing to learn from it. No wonder you keep sort of coaching and reprimanding Patrick toward better behaviour.
Me…I think he is pretty much a lost cause. I’ve had to learn there are things I just have to let go of and accept there is nothing I can do to change things….difficult and painful for me to accept in most instances.
Just another note of mine that was inspired by something Patrick wrote in his last comment; where his Catholic upbringing (brain washing as he characterized it) “to think of others ahead of ourselves” I don’t now read those sciptures the same way. If someone is hurting, insulting or denigrading me, I have no choice but to express my feeling on the matter, but that is a far cry from confronting that person or remark by a counter hurt, insult or dinigration. Instictively I know and attempt to avoid the backlash. That I feel is correct … but that does not necessitate repressing the expression of what I felt.
In my case, I attempt to get as far away from the person ‘lobbing’ the insults and have my feeling about it/them. After sufficently doing that, I can now resume whatever I was doing in the first place. That, for me avoids the backlash, but still permits my expression of my feeling/s.
If there is any wisdom in the scrptures; I see it as subliminal, in-so-far as it understood the backlash factor. BUT, alas, did not acknowledge the necessity of expressing ones feeling. I find this a problem in my own life with my Jimbo. He re-acts to me, sometimes in a hurtful manner, but for me to attempt to have it out with him is not productive. In this sense, he is so wrapped up in his feeling he, seemingly. has little time to consider what is taking place in me. My daddy did the very same
From an old feeling perspective:- as little child I instinctively became rapidly aware of the potential of a backlash, but was unable to know that I could express the feeling, away or out of hear shot of the other, usually a parent. That is what I gleaned from contemplating Patrick’s comment. I don’t necessarily feel anyone else should see it that way, but hopefully shows my way.
Jack
>
> Daniel,
> thanks, I just sent an e-mail to my library asking them about it and whether they have it in stock in some audio version.
> it is a great library specially designed for people with visual and dyslectic problems. I had them even read in for an audio version The Primal Scream years ago.
> Larry, if you want to try some really lighthearted and funny but very inventive books, try some of the Flatworld series of Terry Pratchett. they are deliciously absurd and at the same time put their finger on our human weaknesses in a tender way.
> they are kind of fantasy like in the sense that there are dragons and witches and sorcerers, but none of them are heroes, on the contrary.
> just reread most of the twenty books and still could not get enough of it, they all felt like friends after a while like good books do.
> a whole other set of books is The dark tower series of seven books by Stephen King, completely different than all his other books, a long sttory about a quest, needs some patience at first to get into it in the first chapters, but then unfolds to a fabulous and often very primal and moving multifacetted story, that both made me laugh and cry and which I will certainly reread once more, all of the seven books.
> they will certainly take you along to a similar but also different version of this world.
> I regret there is hardly any new science fiction being written these days seemingly, have always been inspired by it in the past, it opens so many possible visions when it is wellwritten.
> could go on about other books but don’t want to overdo it..
> hope someone can enjoy, M
> ha, they have that book from McCann and I’ll get it this week!
> (for free, long live libraries!!)
> can’t believe Trump won today after what he said about wanting to reinstall torture etc.
> a very scary thought to have such a maniac with so much power possibly..
> M
> Phil,
> I must confess I have always had curiosity about the ufo stories, smiley.
> the story about the body of an alien that looked like a small human, with picture and all, was if not true well set up, but as far as I have heard most ufo ‘sightings’ can be brought back to athmospherical or other sources.
> still, I can’t believe we are the only planet with living creatures in this entire universe, so it somehow still inspires my imagination, as i said, I like science fiction as well.
>
> I also like to read about cosmology and the latest findings on the surface of Mars etcetera.
> but of course that curiosity and interest is far from believing in a conspiracy theory.
> I do consider it very well possible though many governments would try to keep it a secret to themselves if they’d find really something.
> smiley, maybe it is our stupidity that keeps them away..
> what I find also intriguing are the similarities between the macro and micro cosmos, like I was amazed to learn how much emptiness there really is between the relatively small nucleus of an atom and the electrons that surround it.
> it is like an orange in the middle of a big cathedral and the electrons, even tinier, fly around as far as the outer walls of the cathedral, and in between there is nothing at all.
> so if you think about that, everything, including us, exist of much more emptiness than matter. that is what I find fascinating.
> and then the immense velocity of the spin of protons etc. and the way m.r.i. machines use the tiny shifts in those millions of turns in a millisecond and the tiny radio waves they emit when the magnetic fields are modulated, etc, etc,, who said science is boring?
> makes me think of how nice it can be to study something that interests you, it is a bit like eating, feeding the mind.
> satisfying.
> M
Margaret,
Scientists supported by the government are trying very hard to find habitable planets and any evidence of life on planets near us, like mars. With that in mind, why would the government cover up evidence in the form of UFOs?
I think the stories end up being something explainable like an aircraft of some type, or someone’s toy.
Phil
> Phil,
> I know.
> I was merely thinking of this story way back in the seventies or earlier with a picture of an alien, so called alien that was found somewhere in the desert, still alive if I remember well, but dying.
> then the story went it was all hushed and kept from the public.
> but well, must have been another set up, many pictures were tricked in sometimes very simple but deceiving ways.
> still, I hope to run into my own personal meeting with an interesting alien somehow, haha, deep in the bottom of my girlie heart.
> maybe looking there for gentleness and wisdom as well, filling in what was not there. not to forget interest..
> picture it like a mutual kind of fascination.
> reminds me with an unexpected close meeting with a wild fox I once had when we also just stood there for a while looking at each other, a precious moment as the fox saw i meant no harm.
> still remember his honey coloured transparent eyes with almost a reflexive look. he after half a minute or so just quietly went his way.
> felt like a privilege.
> M
Margaret,
Here’s a list of the 25 most popular conspiracy theories: http://list25.com/top-25-most-popular-conspiracy-theories/
I was just trying to find more conspiracy theories that Patrick could believe in, and if not, find out why, because he seems to set a very low bar as far as evidence.
Interesting that the one, Paul McCartney is dead shows up. Who is the guy who looks like him, sounds like him, writes songs, and tours? If he is dead it’s irrelevant as his replacement is very talented. Maybe he’s actually an alien.
Phil
> haha!
> makes me wonder who else could be an alien..
> M
Leslie:
I am placing my comment to you down here at the clean edge of a giant forest of words. First of all, thank you much for sharing more about why you were upset about the wine ad. Never in a million years did I consider the ad to be a subtle prelude to an eventual assault somewhere. Personally, I thought of it as a cute, symbolic celebration of feminine beauty and nothing beyond that at all.
I did read your post along with that lady’s Gnomeshi blog entry. I can see why your mother would be frightened and helpless having a leering guy in his 60’s come after her when she’s at the frail age of 86. This unfortunate occurrence along with what happened to you personally introduces a new round of complexities I am not well-prepared to discuss at length at this point in time.
In my own personal experience, I could share some brief stories about how several people have directly groped for my…uhm…how should I put it delicately? my ‘crown jewel’ even though I was fully clothed in a public setting. I just reflexively backed away from the advances I didn’t want and I quickly let the matter drop. In fact, I wouldn’t have even bothered sharing this until you mentioned your story because I had completely forgotten about them and shrugged them off long ago. My experience, though, is from the standpoint of a stocky, grown man instead of a feminine perspective (particularly the elderly where it’s even more challenging to defend themselves).
I don’t know what else I can say here, Leslie. I have so many serious things on my mind that I am compelled to move on to other things with no disrespect intended.
I thought Daniel might find this picture interesting. I think we could say ‘a picture is worth a thousand words’ as to whether Jews/Israeli’s tend to ‘separate’ themselves. This is the kind of ‘reducio ab absurdum’ of that way of dealing with things. People who have lived there forever are ‘wild beasts’ huh?? so he is what some kind of ‘civilizing’ influence……………I don’t think so at all
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/netanyahu-plans-fence-around-israel-to-protect-it-from-wild-beasts
I don’t know if you’ve actually read the story you linked to, if you did you would have found it to be a security issue on the borders and not a need to separate for other reasons. But, I deplore that plan and those words by Netanyahu. Not sure you know, but about 20% of Israel’s population are Arabs. No one is separating from them.
You must reconsider that “people who lived there forever” claim. No people anywhere in the world have lived in their current location forever. With tiny exceptions human migration is pretty much ubiquitous and has always been an integral part of history.
Larry: You apologized to me earlier because you presumed I could deeply wax philosophical without the burdens of everyday life such that I don’t have employees available to delegate less important tasks to.
After much consideration, I will forgive you if you read “It’s No Accident” by Lisa Lewis. http://www.amazon.com/Its-No-Accident-Behind-Senseless/dp/1411681568
It’s only 298 pages, Larry. The author has valiantly testified in the US Congress before deaf ears paid for by big business, if that endorsement means anything to any self-professed experts who dismiss the book at a whim without knowing anything about it. 🙂
Also, Larry: When you mentioned the Nobel Prizes I suddenly realized what Janov might be trying to achieve before time runs out. Just a thought that suddenly made a lot of sense to me based on what I’ve seen in recent years. Wouldn’t that be a crowning glory for someone’s ego? I won’t say anything further about this because I need to prune away complexities that are of no current use to me.
Synaptic pruning? Don’t get carried away.
Sorry, that last comment was mine.
Phil
Were you a big fan of ventriloquism when you were a child, Phil?
Now that’s cute Ug ! 🙂
It is another fact based book, which I need to take a breather from, but it looks interesting UG, and especially if I can get it from the library I will likely read it.
Patrick, You say that is what you are doing, getting the other side of an argument. You had not mentioned previously that you were studying or reading about the Holocaust before reading Kolerstrom or Irving. I assume you mean that you knew some basic history before you began reading about these various conspiracy theories. Well, ok suit yourself, you see no value in understanding the subject matter from both sides of the argument then that’s your choice. Actually I have come to believe it would not matter what else you might read or hear on the subject. As a general rule though it does seem a bit of a confirmation bias. The only other thing you might want to ponder is the idea that minority opinion is always ” free thinking” and majority opinion the work of ” sheep” . Obviously this would be a rather naive and simplistic view and there are many examples one could point to where that is indeed quite the opposite . I say this because I notice you are very quick to assume those who disagree with certain ideas must be ” standard ” thinkers and those who believe in almost any conspiracy are the ” revolutionaries” of the world. While this is a romantic view of things it is clearly not always the case. In fact there was an experiment once and I will give you the short version. A crowd of people are told to walk in a specific direction without actually knowing where they should go. Within the crowd is a small minority, less than five percent I believe. They are to begin to walk in a slightly different direction. The crowd, without knowledge of who might know what direction is the appropriate direction to take, begin to follow not the majority but instead that small minority. Interesting to note the scientist in charge describes those that follow the minority as “sheep”. Gretchen
Gretchen – I don’t know what to do with you! Decide to read this carefully, follow it as best I can and oops withina few lines Kollerstrom and Irving (who are not even in agreement with each other on some important aspects) anyway they become in your words ” these various conspiracy theories” Whoa! hold on a bit. The idea that millions were ‘gassed’ with no orders or directions or paperwork or program or director or budget with a mechanism that to quote Kollerstrom is a ‘sheer physical impossibility” IS a ‘conspiracy theory’ and one of the most damaging and nefarious that has been foisted on the people of the world. It is the big LIE that is the foundation stone for the post WW2 and the lie that keeps on giving. As in giving more wars, seeing “Hitlers” everywhere from Saddam Hussein to Milosevic to Gaddafi to Assad. The lie that makes a star
te whose answer to all the refugees they have caused is to bulld a wall around the WHOLE country. Meanwhile if another ‘innocent’ country tries to assert themselves in any normal fashion ……………oops that’s a “neo-Nazi” and should be shunned and condemned as spreading ‘hate’ meanwhile that country IS helping and helping beyond what they should. Of course they are scared of being called ‘neo-Nazi” and spreaders of “hate”
Then you go on about minority and majority thinking etc. Of course there is some truth in what you are saying. I always have liked the saying “Every genius is an outsider but not every outsider is a genius” Fair enough. I am really not just being ‘ideological’ about this it is just (the way I see it) now at this particular moment in history/time there is an awful lot of ‘propaganda’ around. Maybe always was (and always will be?) but well it seems particularly ‘thick’ at this point in time. I am reading the book about 9/11 “Where did the Towers go?” and one small ‘fact’ there are 7 buildings comprising the World Trade Center and ALL seven were destroyed in various way in 9/11 I mean that seems an important fact and yet I have hardly ever heard that mentioned in the media and certainly not as something puzzling and something to wonder about. Building 6 had a huge ‘hole’ in it from the top of the building to the bottom. A hole that was more than half the volume on the building and with little of no debris. Bullding 5 has a similar situation but with several smaller ‘holes’.but holes ‘drilled’ right through the building top to bottom. Building 4 ‘dissapeard’ except for one wing and all of these seemingly had nothing to do with debris falling from 1 and 2. Building 7 is often admitted as a ‘mystery” it just went poof around 4 in the afternoon. I think the book really has the ‘goods’ or WHAT happened even though she does not speculate about WHO did or WHY they did it but based on WHAT happened it is clear it could NOT have been done by ‘terrorists’ in the sense the word is commonly used maybe Mossad ‘terrorists’ or MI5 or CIA but NOT Bin Laden or whomever.
BTW and she does not mention this……………….but looking at maps of New York in that area ALL 7 buildings in the WTC were ruined and damaged beyond any repair and yet NO other building were damaged at all in any serious way. It’s like there was a ‘contract’ between whoever did it and the owners of WTC (who are 2 Jewish billionaires by the way and far ‘richer’ than they were in the aftermath, 7 billion in insurance and who knows how much for the ‘contract’) to ONLY destroy their building. Also wouldn’t want pesky lawyers for ANY other building sticking their noses in this one. Never know what they might uncover. Anyway it’s a small point but it’s one of those little ‘details’ hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. I can’t imagine Bin Laden drawing up such a ;’contract’ but someone in the Defense Establishment well yes I could. It seems most people here are not into reading but I would recommend the book very highly so highly I would say it actually SHOWS what happened on that day. As to who and why it is still not known but at least it a good clue about what did NOT happen or COULD NOT have happened. Judy Wood is the author and the book is called “:Where did the Towers go?”
Your point about the ‘experiment’ does not say so much to me. I think it is mostly just an effect of ‘group dynamics’ or whatever. The same would happen I imagine with a flock of birds or sheep for that matter. Or just points on a screen. I think it has something to do with if a small percentage moves in a slightly different direction that is ‘noticed’ by the group and hense they follow that. I am not sure it has any ‘profundity’ to it or any guide about the real behaviour of people in society. But I could be wrong just saying how it strikes me.
Patrick, I think you should re-read that article you posted for Daniel. You might have missed a point or two. Also you keep talking about the “big lie”. I think it’s important you know that phrase was coined by Hitler in Mein Kampf. It is also important to note that Hitler gave several public speeches where he called for extermination of the Jews. I believe you might call that ” orders” don’t you think? You can’t spin that as it is a fact period. I don’t really get why you are so offended by my use of the word neo nazi. Irving was not denying it why should you? You prefer National Socialist? Why? It still means nazi no matter how you look at it. There is no more to say about this . Gretchen
As usual Gretchen your ‘history’ is a bit sketchy. Hitler WAS concerned with the problem of propaganda and felt that Germany particularly in WW1 was ‘victimized’ by British propaganda and war atrocity propaganda (In general the British are brilliant at PR – we have whom I call “PR man” here and he is British lol) There were all kinds of ‘stories’ put about the Germans like the cut off the bands of children in Belgium etc (again this is ironic in that IS what the Belgiums had done themselves in the Congo) that were much believed and were later proved to be all lies. Similarity later.the Soviets for whom propaganda and lies were official state policy. Also keep in mind the ‘revolution’ in Russia was pretty much just a Jewish take over of that country.so ‘lies’ seemed to be second nature to them………….
So Hitler and not only him felt propaganda was a huge problem and typical of him I suppose he decides he has to fight fire with fire. So to ‘counter’ as he sees it this problem he has a ‘propoganda’ MInister Goebells whose job is specifically to counter the ‘enemy’ story and advance their own. They felt rightly or wronglly and I think rightly that ‘truth’ in itself was not enough they had as I say to fight fire with fire. And develop their own “lie’ But my understanding about HItler and Goebells talking about the ‘big lie’ is first off mostly a DESCRIPTION of what they see as the ‘reality’ in the world. They are not so much saying ‘let’s develop our own big lie (though in a sense they are also) but above all they are just DESCRIBING the situation and how problematic it is
Again and I AM getting tired of this you just say Hitler had speeches where he just called for the ‘extermination’ of the Jews. What can I say…………….you can say anything and you do and regardless of history,nuance etc etc. Hitler was not crazy about the Jews but mostly at all times he wished they would just go away! He tried different things to send them all to Madagascar, then later to Poland and Russia. He never seemed to want to ‘exterminate’ them………………though I do understand it seems to be deep in their subconscious even to this day. Put a fense around the whole country but have the ‘freedom’ to range here there and everywhere to assassinate, create fake terror events whatever but the ‘paranoia’ seems to be deep and abiding
Gretchen I do NOT feel you to be a genuine seeker after ‘truth’ here so I would agree with you that “There is no more to say about this” as I do not feel from you the basic desire to seek truth but something else……………..something like just soft soap me with a bunch of half truths. Not interested. As Dr Kruse has been known to say ‘a half truth is a whole lie’ I don’t understand what I ‘missed’ in the article I posted to Daniel…………….but the image of a whole country surrounded by a wall was I thought a striking one. I wonder what you think about that………………well actually I don’t
> Amazing that those thorough researchers still can differ about important facts.
> maybe looking up some facts elsewhere could shed some light?
> M
Trial of Reinhold Hanning, Ex-Auschwitz Guard, Opens in Germany:
Phil – I could say many things about that NY Times story but I will just mention this
“Several survivors of Auschwitz, all of them well into their 90s, are expected to testify against Mr. Hanning.”
What are the chances of much ‘truth’ being in these ‘stories’. Next to none imo these people were liars in their ’40’s it’s unlikely they have ‘changed’ much over the years
They mention this guy Demjanjuk he was living in the US for years was taken to Israel around 2000 found guilty about to be hanged I think……………….and then found ‘innocent’ and THIS was in Israel not the most promising venue for an accused Nazi
But Germany STILL went after him!. Also did you notice the thing about how Germany holds a guy responsible even though he was ‘just doing his job’ and that in any capacity On that basis yourself Phil might be up on some ‘war crimes’ for promoting vaccines and murdering children. Your ‘defense’ would be you were just doing your job but in modern day Germany that’s not good enough. You might well be in trouble under that kind of ‘law’
It is sad that a once proud country could be brought so low and against themselves and their history. But self hate is the most insidious hate of all that is true psychologically. I know a little about this personally and also ‘politically’ The British inculcated such a low opinion to the Irish which we INTERNALIZED and really believed………….believed deep in our bones.
I see something analogous to what is going on in Germany now…………….Hitler as I say did NOT want to ‘exterminate’ the Jews but he DID want them to just go away somewhere. Well they haven’t gone away they have come back to haunt Germany worse than ever…………….which I suppose is typical of histories ironies the very attempt to ‘fix’ things makes things worse. I know a little about this syndrome also probably my ‘role’ here even falls into this…………..
One more thing also this ‘renewed’ push to go after Nazis in their ’90’s is also a way to just keep this ‘holocaust industry’ alive and seemingly relevant. It is a ‘story’ in constant danger of ‘dying’ and not just from ‘old age’ so it needs to be revived all the time.
Phil – sort of how vaccines are kept ‘needed’ by new and outlandish virus diseases all lthe time we are in the middle of one (zika) now. Or a bit like we need a war every few years to show off our weapons and to justify all the money spent on the miliitary. See after all those weapons are ‘needed’ see string up a few 90+ year olds it ‘proves’ the gas really did happen……………….I mean it really does hey a guy was found ‘guilty’ of this just this week…………..that will go on facebook so it must be ‘true’ right??
Patrick,
It ironic to me that as a truth seeker you seem to veer further and further from the truth;
in regards to these issues, and I wonder, maybe your own personal truth..
I have a strong interest in history and do quite a bit of reading. It’s the recent history of the last two or three hundred years that interests me most. I guess it’s because it seems the most relevant to understanding where we are now. It’s also analogous to my quest into my own personal history, but to unearth that is a different process.
Phil
Patrick, I was going to sue you for almost falling out of my chair breaking my back: Did you actually imply that the Jewish state has a just legal system? Even to Nazis?
Oh, yes, and regarding the European Jews Hitler really “want[ed] them to just go away somewhere”. That is why beginning October 1941 the Germans forbade all Jewish emigration out of Germany and the territory under German control. You must admit, it’s an original way of getting rid of people.
They were even more original very soon afterwards.
Well for one thing Daniel there WAS a war going on and a pretty serious and big one. I don’t know why the Germany made that order but I am sure there are reasons for it. I might try to find out and get beyond the ‘cheap shots’ At a guess Germany was already being exhausted now fighting wars on 2 main fronts and others also and probably already getting short of manpower but at the front and in the factories to make munitions, tanks, planes etc. I would admit Jews were used as slave labor and I believe already by that time in 1941 the camps in effect became slave labor factories to continue to produce war materials. Which while not being very ‘nice’ funnily enough undercuts the ‘mass gassing’ story as they desperately wanted to keep them ALIVE. And Kollertrom is very clear on that about all he says the British de-crypts show the ‘panic’ of the Germans about the spread of typhus in the camps and the ‘gas’ Zyklon B was above all and always used to keep people ALIVE. by using it for ‘de-lousing’ Now if you want a different interpretation you can watch probably hundreds of Hollywood movies………………but me I prefer to go with ‘science’ and what the British de-crypts SHOWS
Germany had a massive and ongoing crisis in terms of the war fighting Stalin AND Churchill AND Roosevelt is no joke……………..I think the idea of ‘gassing’ Jews was maybe the furthest thing from their mind. Hitler said numerous times to his generals etc he didn’t even want to deal with the “Jewish problem’ until AFTER the war! But this subject is almost impossible to talk about reasonably thought I do find you more ‘reasonable’ than Gretchen. A characteristic of Jews is to ‘make it all about them’ and unfortunate they have succeeded. Their ‘propaganda’ is truly awesome.The present ‘trial’ of the 94 year old man is just more of it. This happened over 70 years ago so the guy was TWENTY at the time and just an ‘accessory’ in other words he ‘worked’ there maybe even conscripted who knows But no still pursue him and if he says there were no ‘gas chambers’ there which imo is true THAT itself is a ‘crime’ the ‘crime’ of denying the holocaust what kind of Kafkaesque world is that?
I really got interested in this topic in the Summer of 2014 as Israel was slaughtering men women and children for weeks and right at that time and keep in mind this is Ireland it was in the news a proposal to make ‘holocaust denial’ Illegal all over the EU including Ireland of course. And I’m like what the f… is going on here? We are now being told how to think and to think of something that happened over 70 years ago and that we had no involvement in one way or the other. In that way “Jewish propaganda’ Is pushing things too far it pushed me into investigating this stuff and found it to be pretty much bogus. BTW it is only in the West people are ‘fooled’ the Arab world knows better and they have bitter experience to constantly remind them they are not dealing with decent of reasonable people
So Margaret things I might be brought up on the ‘laws’ against “holocaust denial” and you might ‘sue’ me maybe I had better be careful. Maybe so but to let flat out lies and intimidation work goes against my nature.
Patrick,
You really do need to do more investigation on Hitler and the Nazi Party. Extermination of the Jews was an integral part of Nazi ideology as formulated by Hitler. At the heart of the ideology was the idea of the superiority of the Aryan race. This can be found in Hitler’s own writings. Hitler attacked the Soviet Union because of his belief that the Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish takeover of Russia (not at all true). Communism in the Soviet Union was a leftist dictatorship based on ideology with some very similar results to national socialism in Germany, (a rightist dictatorship). Both regimes put ideology ahead of individuals or groups within those nations, with the result that millions of people were executed or allowed to starve.
Hitler and Stalin were both madmen; I have read biographies of both men and many books covering the third Reich in Germany and the Stalin regime in the Soviet Union. It is incomprehensible to me that you could defend Hitler and distort history in the way that you do.
Phil
Patrick,
I actually quit one job because what was going on was wrong and illegal, and I couldn’t take it anymore or be participating That’s what this guard should have done.
Phil
> I find it revoltingly disrespectful and stupid to call those people testifying in the trial liars, back then and now, without knowing anything at all about the situation.
> and even in your crazy logic, Patrick, the argument does not make much sense as trials and accusations are based on all kinds of evidence.
>
> In a lot of European countries by now you might be in legal problems yourself by now, and i am beginning to understand why.
>
> it is a bit like I forgot the word for it in English, but like you can get sued for spreading false rumours about someone, you could also shout ‘freedom of speech’ then, but it is widely accepted it is unacceptable.
>
> if things are proven untrue, you can’t just go about spreading it like as if it is a fact.
>
> this could have been an interesting source for you to follow and possibly learn about which facts there are with which kind of evidence, and it is so telling you simply dismiss it as lies.
>
> it is really starting to feel nauseating to me to have to read some of this over and over and over here.
>
> M
Just this last day Jim and I have had some bad news. He has been complaining for a day or two about upper abdominal pain. He has seen his doctor and gone through a couple of procedures “Ultra Sound” and “MRI” and according to his doctor he receive a not too good prognosis. He’s not sure if the doctor is withholding worse news; but that leaves me hoping for the best and fearing the worst.
I have done quite a bit of crying about a worst case scenario, and have no idea how to continue if the worst case happens. I have no trouble crying and after doing so, feel some relief only for more to be triggered again, as the day progresses. There is little or nothing I am able to do to help my Jimbo feel better, other than to just listen to him.
I have taken some moments of solace by sitting in the sun and seeing clear blue skies, but that does not make the sadness go away; just temporarily distracted.
I will keep the blog posted of what transpires as diagnosis are brought about. This is perhaps the worst aspects of growing old and ones lovers, friends and relatives die. My turn next. Not that my demise is that terrible, provided that it’s quick and relatively painless. None of this brings me to feeling there is some deity looking over us/me or even having created us/me.
It’s just the end of a journey that for the most part I enjoyed. and for the rest, after enough therapy, I was able to express.
Jack
Jack,
I’m really sorry to hear about this; I hope it’s not as bad as it sounds.
Phil
Phil: Thanks; I’m desperately hoping for the best, but am afraid of the worst.
Jack
Jack, I’ll be thinking of you and Jim. Please keep us informed.
Larry: Thanks; and I will keep the blog informed.
Jack
Larry: I wrote saying “thanks”, and I will keep the blog members informed. WordPress was telling me this was duplicate response. Hope it wasn’t and looking at the blog directly I did not see my reply to you Larry.
Jack
Sorry Jack for what you and Jim are having to endure…Will hope for better news.
ox L
Hey Jack, So sorry to hear Jim has been ill. I really hope everything turns out alright. When do they expect to have his test results? Please keep us all posted! Thinking about you ! Gretchen
Thinking of you too, Jack and sending good spirits your guys way.
Saddened to hear that Jim is ailing. Take care, Jack.
Thinking about how Patrick feeds his beliefs, makes me wonder whether I am much different in how I support mine. I need to sort this out for myself.
I think we all form beliefs shaped by life experience, by our personalities, by our intuition, and by our emotional needs. But beliefs and opinions are not facts, are not useful information. Hopefully we eventually look for hard evidence to prove or disprove our belief. That’s what science does, and it’s a good thing too or we might still be in the dark ages in Europe burning people at the stake as witches. It seems that in those dark times the majority needed some answer for the cause of the very scary problems of the time, namely the plagues. The majority needed to believe there were witches and witches caused the problem and something could be done about it. They had no rational proof that there are witches, but emotional need and irrational thinking allowed them to believe witches were the cause of frightening horrendous problems in Europe.
When I was 12, I intuited or needed to believe there was a way to back into my emotional history to relive childhood traumas and finally resolve them. I needed to believe there was some way out of my emotional prison, and intuited that not positive thinking but reliving of early trauma was the way to heal. Years later, some self-primaling gave me some proof that my belief was actually truth, and later my time in the primal community was plenty of proof of the truth of healing through reliving and feeling childhood trauma. Among the world population, I’m probably a minority in this belief.
In the 80’s I read how sugar is bad for you, I believed the evidence for the most part, and from then on cut back on sugar. I was a minority at the time in my belief.
In the 90’s I read how there are good fats and oils. I believed the evidence and modified my diet. Among other things, I went back to eating eggs and butter a decade or more before the switch became mainstream. At the time I was a minority in eating good fats and oils and avoiding transfats.
Later in the 80’s I believed aliens crashed at Roswell, New Mexico. I seemed to need to. I don’t now and it doesn’t make sense to me that there would be a cover up. I think I was in a minority then, and am in a majority now.
I’ve read arguments for and against taking vaccines. I respect experts on both sides of the argument. I believe the evidence is clear that vaccines have helped humankind. Yet I’ve never taken the flu vaccine because of arguments and evidence that sway me against it. Every autumn though I am plagued by doubt whether to take it or not. I seem to be in the minority in not taking the flu vaccine.
In the 2000’s I read about the health benefits of antioxidants. The theory made sense to me. A lot of authors in the alternative health field sold and resold the idea. I accepted it as gospel. I thought there was evidence to support the theory. Now I’m not so sure. I recently read a fascinating but technically complex book about the probable biochemical origin of life on earth, by an award winning biochemist. Part way through the book, a discussion about mitochondria leads to discussion about free radicals and antioxidants. He says “The free-radical theory of ageing is one of those beautiful ideas killed by ugly facts. And boy, are the facts ugly. Not one tenet of the theory, as it was originally formulated, has withstood the scrutiny of experimental testing. ——– Antioxidants most certainly do no prolong life or prevent disease. Quite the contrary. The idea has been so pervasive that hundreds of thousands of patients have enrolled in clinical trials over the past few decades. The findings are clear. Taking high-dose antioxidant supplements carries a modest but consistent risk. You are more likely to die early if you take antioxidant supplements. —- The myth has been perpetrated by a combination of wishful thinking, avarice, and a lack of alternatives.” Boy am I shaken that I was so easily duped. I was so sure in my belief in antioxidants that I took the theory as fact. Now I’m not sure what to think, but I don’t take antioxidants or 1000’s of mg of vit C daily any more, and I haven’t had a cold all winter. (I usually get one a month.) I don’t know whether I am in the minority or majority in not taking anti-oxidants.
Our beliefs are sometimes strong because we emotionally need them. It seems to me that we can’t always gather all the evidence we need to prove or disprove our beliefs, so we rely on experts to provide the evidence, the proof, whose thinking we trust. The worst scenario is where we don’t look for evidence at all to support a belief we hold. It is disturbing to me that for decades I was so sure and believed so strongly in anti-oxidants, and now discover I’ve been a fool to.
For me, here is the rub. Patrick, based on your display on the blog of your thinking, or more accurately your lack of it, based on your nonsensical stringing together of your opinions into what you sell as an argument but without any real evidence to support it, and because you are always so sure that you are right, I just don’t give credibility to your opinions or the authors you draw your ideas from. Generally your arguments are half-baked and not interesting enough to give them my time and attention. I am curious enough though to one day read one of the authors you’ve mentioned here just to see how their thinking works and how they support their opinions, but for me there are so many far more interesting things out there to read and learn about that I want to give my time and energy to.
Besides which, I think you come to the blog more to argue than for any other reason, and maybe to show us all that you are the insider and it is we who are the outsiders.
Larry – that quote about anti-oxidants……………is it from Nick Lane? It sounds like him last year I read about 3 of his books all very good I thought. To show you also I don’t ONLY read about the history of Europe in the last century. That was a bit of a detour for me for whatever reason but I don’t regret doing it. I feel very much more ‘grounded’ in reality that all the ‘stories’ about ‘holocausts’ that are pretty much universal but actually most wrong imo………………..though there were some REAL ‘holocausts’ like in Dresden and Nakasaki and Hiroshima……………..
Yes Patrick, the quote is from “The Vital Question”, 2015, by Nick Lane.
I don’t doubt that your beliefs help you “feel very much more grounded in reality”, just like Europeans once felt grounded in their belief in witches, and just like religious people feel good that their religion grounds them in reality. But beliefs don’t represent reality until backed up by factual evidence.
You say “I think the idea of ‘gassing’ Jews was maybe the furthest thing from their mind.”, but you are just making that up, it isn’t useful information. A lot of what you say is what you make up and pull together to support your belief, but you don’t provide real evidence.
You write to Phil ‘imo these people were liars in their ’40’s it’s unlikely they have ‘changed’ much over the years’. How do you know they were liars? You’re just making that up. It’s just your opinion, not useful information until you have evidence that they were liars.
You say to Phil ‘Hitler as I say did NOT want to ‘exterminate’ the Jews but he DID want them to just go away somewhere.’ How do you know? Where is the evidence? Sounds like something you are just making up again to support your belief. When Daniel counters with the fact ‘beginning October 1941 the Germans forbade all Jewish emigration out of Germany and the territory under German control.’, your response is “I don’t know why the Germany made that order but I am sure there are reasons for it.” Again you are just making that up. You reply to Daniel “I might try to find out and get beyond the ‘cheap shots’.” But you never do dig up the facts. Instead you just continue to make up stuff to support your beliefs that you need so much.
I understand that we need our beliefs. They shape a world view that makes sense to us. But we should be open minded enough to question our beliefs and look for real facts. Otherwise we might still be burning witches and all still be blinded by religious superstition.
Larry – it’s interesting you use the example of burning witches……………..which is the very SAME example Kollerstrom uses to ‘explain’; belief in open burning pits of bodies with babies being brought in by the truck load (that’s Eli Weisel’s ‘story) ‘amended’ to gas chambers as the first ‘story’ did not hold up the gas chamber story is truly not supportable at all by ANY evidence so now it seems we go to ‘gas vans’ or maybe just maniacal and mindless behavior on the part of the Germans. By definition stuff that cannot be show. But if someone is caught in 2 big lies already would you believe a 3rd one because he was ‘caught’ in the other 2. Truly most of these ‘holocaust’ beliefs are like belief in witch craft. So your example can usefully be used to make the exact opposite point
Here is the heart of where your arguments fall apart for me. You say there is no evidence for the gas chambers. I’ve read accounts by prisoners who lived in the camps of what they saw happened there. I’ve read accounts by people who lived nearby and saw trainloads of people shipped into the camps daily but no one exiting, and constant belching of smoke from smoke stacks. It seems outrageous and self-deluded to dismiss the claims of people who lived and suffered through it.
Whoops! Wrong link. This is the one I meant to post.
Larry, you are so right about so many experts with differing opinions. Have tried lots of different healthy diets and find I just need to eat the way my metabolism works best and stick with it. Agree that there’s a lot of interesting things to do all around us. We best pick and choose for ‘time’s winged chariot’ , as the saying goes….
Must say I use to try and convince friends to eat the way I do or just simply eat more veggies, but that urge has slowly gone away. My well-being does not hinge on their eating habits, and why should it.
S
Larry,
Interesting what you say here. In Patrick’s case, a lot of his thinking, it seems to me,
is distorted by anti-Semitism, as that seems to be a unifying aspect to these conspiracy
theories.
Phil
Phil, perhaps Patrick’s ‘thinking’ is distorted by anti-semitism as you say, perhaps not. I don’t feel it is. I think Patrick’s thinking is driven by mistrust of establishment where he never fits in. I think he needs a counter culture which he can feel he is an insider of. All of his talk and beliefs are driven by this need, which causes him to brush aside facts.
Larry,
This sounds very plausible. It just so happens that anti-Semitism is a part of many common conspiracy theories and is also anti-establishment by nature.
Phil
I don’t see how a stance against vaccines is anti-semitic.
Larry: Although I used your comment to respond to it is actually a general response to this whole anti-semitic go-around.:- Here is my history on Jews and Judaism:-
1) At an early age it was common amongst the kids I played with to use the word “Jew” as a verb. ie. to cheat. I said often I was ‘jewed’ out of my marbles.
2) Later, my mother who was very religious (non conformist protestant) would often remind me that Jesus was a Jew. Me not really knowing what a Jew really was,
3) At the Grammar school there was an English teacher, who I knew really liked me though I was not very good in her subject. We were reading for English literature “Merchant of Venice by WS. We were asked to write a synopsis of Shylock. I wrote that he was a nasty money grabber and finished off my exercise by stating that he was a “typical Jew” On coming to the classthe next day, this same teacher asked me to stand by my desk … No! stand on your desk. I complied and she walked round me quoting Shakespeare’s, Shylock’s speech after not being allowed to spill one drop of blood “Hath not a Jew eyes, dimensions,senses, affections: if you prick him does he not bleed …….. as does a Christian I was not fully aware of just how I felt afterwards, but on getting home I told my mother and father and they dismissed it with:- “Oh! she probably has a Jewish boy freind” I knew deep down there was something amiss about that explanation.
4) After leaving school I was conscripted into the army 1950 and on one occasion whilst on leave and visiting Brighton and swimming in the sea at the beach, was met by a guy who turned out to be a German Jew who fled Germany just after kristallnacht. He came from a family that owned a pharmaceutical company in east Germany. His whole family fled fast, Nazi Germany, splitting up. Father mother and brother finished up in the US. He finished up in the UK. We became very close friends (he was gay) and to this very day I consider him to the greatest mind I ever met. I consider him to have been my mentor
5) Later after leaving home and going to live in London my first job was in the office of one of the stalls in Covent Garden Market. The owner, who was Jewish, I did not like, and felt he was cheating his growers. I am certain looking back, that my dislike of him was not being Jewish, but being dishonest. I could be mis-reading my sentiments of the time
6) Some years later I was working as an electrician in a London theater, one Sunday we were asked to work, since a Jewish charity organization was having a show. I distinctly remember feeling very alien, amongst all those Jewish people with their in jokes and patter. This was and is not a strange experience since, I feel very similarly when in a large group of gay people (Gay pride parades) There’s something distinctly “separatist” about groups with common identities.
7) One penultimate one when listening to a radio call in show on the topic of ‘anti Semitism’. I called in and prompted to state that the Palestinians were also “Semites” I was halted by the host saying that “Anti Semitism’ was generally considered anti Judaism
So! I had a mixed bag of experiences, but I was reluctant to identify with any. (at the time, I knew not why)
8) To cap all this was at a retreat when there was a lull in one group and I think it was Vivian (my very favorite therapist) started to talk about being Jewish and Judaism. Not sure what really prompted me, but I suddenly chirruped in with “Qh! stop being Jewish … start being human”; a slight pause then I continued with “Stop being British … start being human”. The whole room went silent, then after a second or two the group resumed on another topic.
If this makes me anti Semitic; so-be-it. My general take; as I wrote in my first book is; that all cultures are false representations of who each of us are. In the end I am finally just the neurotic me.
Jack
Larry,
As I’m understanding most of these theories Patrick has been talking about for months have to do with anti-semitism, but of course people can be against vaccines for various reasons.
See if you can follow all of this. The diseases vaccines are meant to protect against are actually, for the most part harmless. Vaccines are simply meant to generate large profits for pharmaceutical companies controlled by Jews. More than that though, they actually poison people by weakening their bodies and immune systems. This is part of a scheme to depopulate the world and leave the Jews as the majority of the people left. I wrote about this before and maybe people thought i was joking. It’s no joke; the anti-semitic
conspiracy people have tied together numerous bizarre conspiracy theories into one huge plot which involves the Jews. That’s why new vaccines are being created in order to poison us. This is why Patrick brought up the news of the Zika virus. It’s just another fabricated disease tied in with vaccine creation, profit making, and poisoning the population. We have all been brainwashed into thinking that vaccines are beneficial and that organizations like WHO and the CDC do any good. They don’t, they are all just part of the conspiracy as is almost all healthcare.
AIDS is also not a real disease. The medicine for HIV infection is just another way to poison people and make money.
ALL of the terrorism since World War 2 or even longer is part of the plot by Jews. It is meant to activate nations against the Muslims and to win sympathy for the Jews. That includes 911, the first World Trade Center attack in 1993, all the acts of terror in Europe, even seemingly home grown acts of terror such as what happened in Oklahoma City.
The Holocaust denial of anti-semites should be put in the context of all these other theoretical conspiracies and cover-ups to understand how twisted and insane it all is.
All of history lessons are conventional thinking and ways we’ve been brainwashed.
Even the moon landing hoax is tied in with this somehow, you can read about it here:
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2008/06/masonic-moon-landing-hoax.html
There’s no winning these arguments. When I engage it is because I feel I have to speak out when I see such nonsense and trying to probe to show how ridiculous the whole thing is. Also old feelings of having crazy people around me exhibiting extreme behaviors which triggers me. I can’t sit around and say nothing. To a degree, I think it’s healthier for me to speak out.
Phil
Phil – you are what I call a ‘reductionist’ you reduce everything…………………….to your level.
Patrick,
Nothing I described here was my level.
Patrick
Just spouting back in a condensed format a lot of what I’ve been hearing from you for many months, although I’m sure there’s more that should be included. I think it puts an emphasis on the delusional nature of your thinking for everyone to see, although probably an unnecessary effort on my part.
phil
Larry – I could even agree with most of what you say here. But it’s interesting just because someone has a ‘distortion’ often does not mean they cannot see clearly. One would think that would not be the case but look at almost any ‘original’ thinker they are likely ‘distorted’ in some way……………………..and yet they can SEE………..primal 2 + 2 = 4 world only takes you so far……………..
You really didn’t say anything here Patrick. You didn’t present any argument or case at all. Original or unconventional thinkers see reality differently, but until they can back up their unconventional ideas with facts, they are just weird. They may think they can see, but still be blind. Science progresses by someone proposing a new outside the box theory that their particular mind sees, and then testing whether facts and reality support their theory. You keep talking a lot but go in circles never saying anything. Your arguments are devoid of any real point. By saying a lot you seem to convince yourself that you made a convincing point, but it’s without any substance or fact. It is a land of make believe that you live in. It’s fine with me if you need to, until it comes to where you hurt people with your unsupported beliefs.
Thanks all of you responding to my comment. Also sorry for the repeat. I am crying and expressing my feelings and just hope it does not become overwhelming. If it does I’ll take a session or two. Meantime, so far I’m coping and hoping.
Jack
What a shock for you Jack…
Take care..
Jo, Margaret and all others responding or will respond to me: Yep, it puts a whole other perspective on a lot of things like where I stand legally with respect to our home etc. etc. I have never been, nor has Jim to getting married, but it is now something worth considering from several perspectives.
I always knew, and so did Jim that whom ever of us was to go first, would leave the other devastated. It’s not as we are unique, since it’s happening to millions all the time, but it does drive the message home however, sympathetic one is towards others.
The shear brilliance of this therapy is that we patients are left with a resource in dealing with it, and it’s not magic; it’s a fundamental part of our human nature. In that sense I feel very lucky. Now it remains a waiting game.
So once again, thanks to you all
Jack
So sorry to hear that Jack, I hope new information or a second opinion will bring with it better news.
> Jack,
> it must be scary.
> good Jim has you by his side.
> M
Patrick, I wonder what makes something ‘reasonable’ in your mind. I also wonder what makes something ‘science’. Although it is clear to everybody here, as to most reasonable people anywhere, the information historians gathered about the systematic and intentional destruction of European Jews didn’t come – surprise, surprise – from Hollywood movies, but from studying numerous testimonies from victims and perpetrators and from thousands upon thousands of documents, letters, personal diaries, etc.
Kollestrom, on the other hand, is the guy who finds a 90 year old who’s been smoking his entire life and makes the ‘reasonable’ and ‘scientific’ deduction that tobacco use is actually beneficial to human health. You actually show that process of ‘reason’ and ‘science’ very vividly in your comment: You begin with a single fact – being appalled at Israeli actions in Gaza – and wind up with a grand scheme of the entire Jewish history where you find Jewish traits (always negative) and Jewish propaganda (always negative) and Jewish lies and Jewish plans throughout history to destroy everyone else.
That kind of ‘reasoning’ and ‘science’ would have left us in the middle ages, and luckily for all of us it has been left far behind. But from time to time, as you so finely represent, it is rekindled. Darkness is always just a step away. That is why Holocaust denial has been outlawed, because of that very reasoning and science that helped destroy so many people and unchecked may still do so in the future.
Daniel – I was making the ‘small’ point that I happened to be in Ireland as the massacres in Gaza were in the papers every day and AT THE SAME TIME a ‘law’ was being proposed to make ‘holocaust denial’ or maybe even ‘doubt’ ILLEGAL all over the EU including Ireland of course. It means nothing beyond a co-incidence of my own life. But a VERY jarring ‘co-incidence’
If I can say a little about Ireland we were as kids heavily ‘brain washed;’ by the Catholic Church and I mean heavily (totally). I came here in 1978 and did not go back to Ireland until 1985 and I was kind of amazed by the ‘free thinking’ I found in the country. Now this was in part things were changing there the grip of the Church had loosened but more than that there is a kind of ‘native free thinking’ among the Irish. It’s like with the Church certainties in place they were then free to let their minds roam. It is no co-incidence the Irish almost ‘dominated’ English literature for a time, Joyce, Yeats, Shaw, Wilde O’Casey on and on and on.So my point is for us to be TOLD how to ‘think’ about something like the holocaust something we basically know next to nothing about and something that has never exerted some fierce hold on the Irish imagination……………………it’s like hold on a minute we are just getting over our own ‘native brain washing’ and now you are going to replace it with another one and a ‘foreign’;one but the worst part and the part I could not accept and not only me you will make it ILLEGAL to ‘question’ or ‘think’ about it.
That is such an over reach and such a slap in the face of normal ‘free thinking’ well then I thought I HAVE to check into this. This SMELLS funny like what are you hiding you now tell me how I HAVE to ‘think’ come on………………this ‘story’ is full of holes and it is being bolstered by ‘laws’ all over Europe. As I say look at Germany worse than Israel actually this stuff has been stuffed deep down their throats I am sadly almost certain it will take more catastrophes and wars before the ‘belief’ is seriously examined. Israel is determined for more wars as if the situation is not bad enough for the people there Iran is in the cross hairs all it will take is a “President for Israel” which they all are anyway but I think Hillary would be a good one. She will want to prove she can massacre as well as any man and she is a war monger anyway and seems not to have a speck of conscience about Iraq, Libya or Syria so why not just wreck another country. And the ‘holocaust belief helps make that kind of behavior seem somewhat close to justified. It is not in the least and that is one reason I object to it so much. It is just not a ‘historical’ matter it has deep effects on the present deep and dangerous ones…………….
Your Irish experience of 2014 is exactly the point of scientific thinking which is based on processes of discrimination, differentiation, the isolation of variables – one can oppose Israeli actions, even vehemently, and at the same time oppose Jew haters who deny the Holocaust. The fact that you find that strange is, well, strange. It CAN fit into a single picture of reality if one is not trying to do away with the complexities, contradictions and ironies of that reality.
Likewise, one can rightfully say that there are unknowns in the Holocaust narrative, even that gas chambers are unlikely to have been, without discarding the entire idea of there being a purposeful mass murder of Jews during WW2. The evidence for this is just overwhelming (even without the gas chambers), unless one takes a fact or two, purposefully disregarding the other facts, and take them out of context to fit a political agenda.
From your story about growing up I can understand that you’re sensitive to being told what to think, but don’t you think there’s a difference between being told and being presented with? We’re always presented-with during our schooling, and unless that schooling is autocratic to the extreme the information it provides is just there to be studied and build upon later on.
The important thing one learns later on about learning – the emphasis of our higher education – is not only the facts of each subject, but mostly the research methods by which those facts were obtained, and which aim to be as fair minded and as impartial toward the facts as can possibly be, at least initially.
If, for example, we were all presented with the narrative of slavery in America and elsewhere, does this mean that we were told what to think? Does this mean that maybe slavery never happened? For me the fact of slavery is an integral part of history and I have no need to refute it. Unless of course I have a political agenda to do so.
Daniel – I hate to say but you miss the WHOLE point of what I said. We may be ‘told’ about slavery or about the Ancient Pyramids or Roman civilization or ANY number of things but as far as I know not ‘believing’ in the holocaust or ‘holocaust denial is the ONLY one where it is ILLEGAL. Please how simple is that distinction and this ‘illegal’ business is NOT a trivial matter. Just ask Germar Rudolp among the premier chemists of his day put in jail career ruined because he wrote a study showing how human gas chambers COULD NOT have existed. I notice now even you back off the ‘gas chambers’ well better late than never but that is how it goes. Eli Wiesel ‘saw’ burning pyres of bodies out in the open burning away and babies were occasionally hauled up in trucks and dumped on the fire!! Yes he said that and lots of people believed him until like the ‘gas chambers’ it was shown to be a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for bodies to just burn in that way. Wiesel also ‘saw’ blood (that would be Jewish blood of course) spurting from the ground for weeks. These kind of people have either a real ‘active imagination’; or they are liars. I tend towards the latter.
So one by one all the lurid stories have to be abandoned but now believe THIS one. Well I don’t and I see no reason to ‘trust’ proven liars.
About Ireland again it is not some ‘reaction’ I have to been ‘told” what to think or not primarily but it was the proposal to make ‘holocaust denial’ ILLEGAL. Daniel how hard is that to understand and why do you ‘fudge’ it for all you rules of evidence, what is scientific etc etc. You miss the main point.
About the Irish …………..one thing is true if you tell us we HAVE to believe something on pain of going to jail…………….well for that reason alone we don’t and we won;’t. Such has been my journey into this cloud cuckoo disinformation universe that is the ‘holocaust’ for the most part.
Another things about ‘having’ to believe………….this is surely the beginning of a ‘slave state’ and if you think about it the Soviet Union had many aspects of that they were mocked for ‘thought crimes’ Well isn’t ‘holocaust denial” a thought crime in many European countries. Some of them maybe most of them seem to ‘love’ it look at Margaret she seems to like to live in a slave state and wishes to extend it to me the privilege of living in a slave state. Lucking so far at least freedom of expression holds up in the US at least for now. Though I am sure they are working on it………….
> I am more and more convinced no reason will be able to make Patrick change his mind, as what he really seems to neeed is an enemy.
> and with this topic he scores double, those evil Jews and all the people that oppose his outragious ideas..
> he seemed always to be looking for the victim role, the outsider, poor misunderstood welllmeaning guy…
>
> all a handy front to shit on people.
> and get way more attention than he deserves.
> M
Hear Hear!!
Personally Margaret, I don’t write to Patrick to try to get him to change his mind. Many of you struggle trying to get him to. I can understand why he can’t. I write to try to understand the difference between him and me, because there are similarities. We all have beliefs that we need to be true. We all try to find evidence to support our beliefs, so that we can know them to be true. The difference between me and Patrick, I realize, that disconcerting though it may be to me I am willing to change my belief if evidence points that way. Patrick needs to cling to his beliefs no matter what. Now that I sorted that out for myself, I don’t need to talk about it any more.
Why repeatedly describe what Weisel says as though he is the one one only person who reported those crimes?? That’s a bit weak isn’t it? There have been thousands of people on both sides of the war who describe those crimes. You, on the other hand say ” Kollerstrom says” as though that settles that. Ridiculous! This is a man who states lies as though they are facts and offers zero evidence. Watch the tapes you so happily post. He makes statement but offers no evidence. Wake up! This is the ultimate sheep behavior. You have a new and brilliant defense for the serial killer down the street ” I’m old and besides it was my job” oh ok let’s clear out the jails! When Hitler gave public speeches asking for the extermination of the Jews you believe we missed the ” nuance” , what he really meant was get out of my sight and then off to the ” resort” they were sent. Uh oh, whoops that was a pretty big misunderstanding don’t you think? Think of the lives that could have been saved had the ” nuance ” been recognized! You insecurely announce you are the only one who understands history and yet you know so little and do nothing to educate yourself. You know almost nothing and have no ability to acknowledge that. The truth is if you were honest you would cop to the fact that your prejudice and hatred came long before your philosophies. You are an angry person looking for something to focus on. You keep talking about how happy and at peace you are with your new found knowledge- no one is happy spewing hatred to the degree you do. All I wonder now is how you will handle the potato famine deniers!
LOL! Well let’s say this if ‘potato famine deniers’ exist certainly in Ireland we would not make it ‘illegal’ We might suggest go for a pint and talk it out. You know ‘primal’ Irish style…………….seems it might have something going for it versus ‘primal’; Jewish style where old hurts real and imagined are nursed and milked for all they are worth. And ‘forgiveness’ is a dirty word.And the past dominates everything and where the present and future are just shadows of the past. And where a 94 y.o. man is brought up on charges for something he did when he was 20 years old. Probably a conscript or just a job to a young man. And an ‘accessory’ to a gassing that did not happen……………is that justice?
I mentioned the witnesses against him if they were there they had to be not over 20 y.o. also. Can people seriously think that they can ‘tell’ this is the same man can you tell a person at 20 and now see him at 94 and ‘identify’ him. These are show trials Soviet style no better and Germany to it’s shame has adopted these kind of ‘trials’
I picture some of these ‘witnesses’ putting on some lurid show they will look in the guy’s eyes and say “That’s HIM that’s the Devil I saw him with my own two eyes shove my grandma into the ‘gas chamber’ (a gas chamber that was not there) and they might even scream and cry………………fakers and liars
Many of these ‘witnesses’ go from trial to trial and are well paid for it. Most of them have been in many trials already they are good at what they do and of course they are not seriously cross-examined. Digusting liars and just doing it for money.
Germany plans 3 or 4 more of these so by the Summer is over there should be no doubt in anyone’s mind…………….see it really happened 4 more were found ‘guilty’. That’s how easy it is to prey on public opinion and easier all the time just put it on facebook and well then it’s a fact.
To come back to ‘potato famine deniers’ bring it on I have no fear nor should anyone else if people want to say that. But the ‘evidence’ would be against them in the case above the evidence is just not there…………
If the Auschwitz ‘story’ is so strong why the need to TORTURE the commander of the camp to get him to say what was not true and then make it ILLEGAL to do any serious investigations later. Something really stinks about that ‘story’………..if people feel fine living in a slave state what can you say. i don’t and appreciate the USA on that one. And Ireland so far unless they corall that country through the EU.And the sad fact is I don’t think many of the Irish would make a fuss. And those that do would be condemned as neo-nazis. (c/f Gretchen) That’s how much they have got Europe by the balls
Oh really ?! You might want to do some research into freedom of speech in Ireland . You can start with the laws against blasphemy, the Incitement to hatred act and the libel reform campaign .
Frankly the fact that you are so offended by those who admit to being nazis and deniers being called nazis and deniers reveals your own shame.
Well Patrick, you have some real problems of comprehension, so just know this:
1) The case of there being a Holocaust is ironclad.
2) The case of there being gas chambers is ironclad.
3) The information for the above is readily available. It is based on real data researched by real scholars from many countries, most of whom are not Jewish, and not just a gut feeling.
4) Germar Rudolf is not “among the premier chemists of his day” nor has he ever been. According to the Scopus database (The academic database of Chemistry journals) he doesn’t have a single paper or book published on chemical matters. Even his own website doesn’t list any chemistry publications by him. In other words, chemistry wise he’s nobody. In this statement of yours one can see the credibility typical of your arguments.
5) Only a few of about 190 countries in the world have laws against so called Holocaust denial, so I’m not sure why you’re going on about it (actually I am pretty sure). It is usually just a sub-paragraph in a more general legislation against Incitement to Hatred. None of these is against thinking that but, to quote German law for example, against “(3) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace..”.
6) The difference between this and other subjects is that Holocaust denial is always accompanied by ideologies that incite hatred and proved extremely dangerous and deadly.
7) Good luck with your anti-Semitic career. You’ll get to meet a lot of interesting people and I’m sure it will bring light and happiness into your dreary life.
8) Why don’t you take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.
And one last thing:
Like everybody here on the blog, you too are deeply concerned about your mental state, otherwise you wouldn’t have been going on about all this and repeat yourself ad infinitum in a psychologically oriented blog, perhaps until you made sure each and every one of us was fully aware of your deterioration. Maybe you must deny the calamity that befell the Jews in the past because you need to deny the mental calamity that befalls you in the present.
Phil,
> I really liked the clarity with which you wrote and summed up the oversight of the disturbed views and how they fit together.
> it is well written and to the point and I am glad you did speak up as somehow it sums it all up in various ways.
> in a way it is funny Patrick refers to it as bringing it down to your level, haha, kind of a weak attempt to blame the low low level of it all on you, haha, truth hurts as we say.
> M
Do I bother? Should I bother? NO but it doesn’t mean I won’t. I am nothing if not a ‘fighter’ a lot of people might say a ‘struggler’ I will try to keep it short as I can understand people are tired of this
First of all Phil I can truthfully say ALL the time around this time last year when I was reading about vaccines any kind of so called ‘Jewish’ angle NEVER even occurred to me! Why should it? I was thinking about it and trying to find out as best as I could. But to ME you show your narrow reductionist outlook, I am tired of you to me you talk a lot and never have much of interest to say. Just because you get Margaret as a ‘fan’ well to me and I should not say this and I will regret it but f… it my feeling is it is pretty much a case of the blind leading the blind
“Agreement” proves nothing and your little club I would not want to belong to.
Daniel – if I might say so it seems behind the ‘thoughtful psycho-analytic’ pose comes out something more like the ‘real you’ and it’s not that pretty. For all your ‘posing’ telling someone to take a flying fuck at a donut…………..I dunno. Maybe you might like to ‘psycho-analyse’ that and could you let us know what you come up with? What ‘deep’ complex or ambiguity will you ‘uncover’ for all our delight in your ‘deep insights’
I am not going to waste my time or others trying to counter what is basically rubbish but Germar Rudolp WAS one the certainly most promising of the young chemists in Germany UNTIL his career was stopped cold and all because he had the gall to take samples from the walls of the so called Auschwitz ‘gas chamber’ and compare them to the wall of the de-lousing chamber and he FOUND wait for it NO sighs of the use of cyanide gas in the ‘human gas chambers’ but the walls of the delousing chambers were full of it. Busted! Busted holohoax. Well he can’t be allowed to get away with that and he hasn’t and I better shut up now as I have no career to lose but I see the vindictiveness building if Mr Cool Daniel the pipe smoking psycho-analyst type starts telling me to fuck a donut well I better withdraw for a while. In these kind of circles ‘vindictiveness’ is the order of the day just look at ‘trying’ a 94 y.o. man for something he supposedly ‘did’ when he was 20. And what he did was work at a labor camp and he knew nothing of human gas chambers there because there were not any there…………..but he can’t say that that would be a ‘crime’ in itself and would count as ‘disturbing the peace’ You know well Daniel that is the bogus ‘law’ that allows them to do all that.
So as I say I better shut up if I know what is good me for me (do I? know what’s good for me?) and we will have all the slave state lovers wanting to apply their wonderful condition to me. Margaret likes to ‘ban’ and to now ‘prosecute’ and she has her ‘leader’ Phil and her psycho-analyst Daniel to ‘support’ her. I would not touch that ‘club’ with a 40′ pole but there is no guarantee they might not want to ‘touch’; me and not in any nice way. Daniel do you think I am ‘disturbing the peace’? That’s enough to put people in jail but luckily a few countries like the US the UK and Ireland so far is OK. So long as I don’t go to Germany………………how ironic is that a country I admire very much brought low by ‘self hatred’ but hatred fomented and very deliberately so by others…………………
A final thing most people do not know that the so called gas chamber they visit at Auschwitz was a post war Soviet ‘construction’ it was put there like a movie prop by Stalin it apparently has a huge chimney (I have not been there) but the chimney connects to nothing. It is pure show and the ‘tourists’ who get their tingle of terror there never question any of it. I notice in the ‘trial’ going on now in Germany the ‘witnesses’ go on and on about flames and they stressed flames were shooting out of that chimney.Has any ever seen or even imagined what kind of a crematorium for DEAD bodies shoots flames out of a tall chimney (must be something in all that Jewish blood makes it do that)……………that’s about the level of ‘evidence’ you will get at that ‘trial’ pure movie style ‘horror’ with NO basis in reality. But hey they are in their 90’s also maybe they can’t remember so well……………..well you will find it will be good enough to find this guy ‘guilty’. That’s what show trials do! Just ask Stalin who wrote the book on that and something we continue to our great shame………………
Quote: “Do I bother? Should I bother? NO but it doesn’t mean I won’t. I am nothing if not a ‘fighter’ a lot of people might say a ‘struggler’ I will try to keep it short as I can understand people are tired of this” I thought WW2 was over … So! who are you fighting???? Maybe the second coming of Don Quiote and a new form of ‘wind mill’ … maybe just a ‘wind bag’ eh!!!!
Anyway it was good that you kept it very short … or is my eye sight now flailing me.
Just a short question from me:- what’s the feeling behind all this??????
Jack
.
Here’s what Rudolf (not Rudolp – you should at least learn to spell your heroes’ names correctly) has to say in his website about his own Phd.: “It’s ivory tower science, paid in full by the German tax payer, to whom I apologize herewith for the resources squandered”. Is that the voice of a promising chemist, one who can’t take even his own chosen work seriously?
And what do you know of young German chemists in the 1990’s to say with authority that he was the “most promising of young chemists”? Is that a gut feeling or do you actually know the chemists scene in Germany? In case you can’t tell it’s a rhetorical question, because it’s obvious that you have no clue as to what you’re talking about.
I guess Rudolf has earned that accolade from you because he became a ‘beautiful mind’ and edited what you called, “The BEST book and the most complete on the subject [Holocaust]”, again – as if you’re familiar with past and current research on the issue. It’s really tragic to see you not notice the huge gap between what you profess and what you display.
As for myself, for a long time now I and others on the blog have tried to reason with you, to reach you somehow, to find some kind of common ground, but in return you’ve been spewing hatred and abominable accusations against many on the blog but especially against the Jewish race of which I am a member (your last snide remark on how Jewish blood supposedly better fuels flames is a typical example). Your portrayal of me, my family, some of my friends, and millions of others has crossed the line more than once and I’ve had enough of it.
As a side issue, you’re also hurting the PI and this blog, both of whom I care about.
Phil, and others, you could be right that Patrick’s thinking stems from anti-semitism.
When I try to understand him, I try to imagine being like him. Before Primal Therapy, I never fit in, I never belonged, I was nobody. After Primal Therapy I saw and understood primal pain. The rest of the world was wrong not to see. I felt strength and belonging in being part of a small community who saw while the rest of the world was blind. I felt I was right and felt grounded for the first time in my life.
The seeing extended to other dimensions of my life. I saw that sugar is bad for you. I saw that good fats and oils are essential for our health. Based one lecture that I attended at the University of Manitoba by a retired nuclear physicist, I saw that aliens crash landed at Roswell, New Mexico. After being introduced to them by a friend, Noreen and I saw that USANA vitamins were the best in the world and started using them and became business associates in promoting them. What I’m saying is, there was a sense of strength and grounding that I discovered and never had before, that came from seeing what the rest of the world was blind to, that came from belonging to a minority who understood like me what the rest of the world was ignorant of.
Over time though, as I progressed through painful early feelings through primalling, I became stronger and more centered in myself no matter what group it was that I was a part of. I felt more grounded as an individual and able to fit in to my cross country ski club, my canoe club, my toastmaster club, my Unitarian church. Fit in is not the correct term here. I remained an individual, but I found and associated with people who enjoyed the same things I did and it was nice to spend time with them. For my identity I no longer needed to be part of a counter-culture minority able to see what the rest of the world was blind to. Over time Noreen and I informed ourselves that USANA wasn’t the best vitiamin in the world and we stopped using and selling them. Over time I realized there was no evidence that aliens crashed at Roswell, and it didn’t make sense to me that there was a cover up. It seemed to me that people who believed in the cover up, needed to.moreso than were looking at evidence.
I feel that Patrick needs there to be counter cultures who open his eyes, because in that way he can feel like he belongs to something, which is important to him because he never fits into the established mainstream. He fights for his counter culture ideas because through them he thinks he sees and finally belongs. He promotes them on the blog because that way he reinforces in himself the insider status he has finally achieved in the minority. He needs the reinforcement through counter arguments on the blog because we are real people who he knows, whereas in his counter cultures to which he feels he belongs through tenuous ideation, there are no people who he physically associates with and where he remains and empty lonely soul, comforted through a sense of connection with ‘them’ through thinking like them.
His whole being desperately needs that sense of connection in a counter culture, flimsy and hollow as it is. He can’t risk shattering the sense of connection he gets by looking at hard evidence. He doesn’t support any of his arguments with facts. His arguments are conjecture made up as he goes along. Meanwhile he won’t consider your counter arguments supported by fact.
He can’t risk shattering his sense of belonging to a counter culture. He can’t risk looking at and seeing evidence and reality. Since there is no one in his counter cultures who he actually physically associates with, it is a tenuous sense of belonging based only on shared beliefs that he dare not scrutinize objectively. He needs us because we are the only people he knows.
I think it should be illegal to intentionally disseminate false information to confuse people. It should be illegal and the tobacco companies should be prosecuted for intentionally distributing false information and bad science in trying to cover up that smoking cigarettes is bad for your health. Their intentional misinformation harmed people’s lives. Ditto for the oil companies who tried to confuse the issue that global warming was real and something we urgently need to tackle.
I agree with Lee Howell’s editorial in the Jan 23, 2016 issue of NewScientist magazine. ‘Lee Howell is a member of the managing board of the World Economic Forum, and is responsible for its annual meeting in Davos, Switzerland, from 30 to 23 January, 2016.’ Howell writes ‘Davos is not renowned as a gathering of scientific leaders, but this year for the first time, there are more Nobel laureates from the natural sciences than from the economic sciences — eight compared with six. They will be joined by top researchers, heads of funding agencies and scientific publications and presidents of leading universities and academic institutions.’ He summarizes ‘Leaders from business, civil society and government would all agree that improving the state of the world requires more evidence-based decision making. We need more scientists in Davos to do that.’
I emphasize, ‘we need more evidence-based decision making’. It is the only way out of ignorance, suffering and disease, towards a better world. Patrick and his like and their ideation unsupported by fact have nothing to offer.
I think it should be illegal to disseminate false information. Show me the evidence or shut up.
Larry, I agree certainly in regards to the Holocaust that it should be illegal, as all that can come from that is spreading hate. Those laws in Europe seem to be a good thing.
Vaccines may be another example. If governments have decided that they are mandatory because of public health, then why allow people to spread false information,
which isn’t based on scientific research?.
Phil
Phil – I agree with you spreading lies is not a good thing. After all this is my big gripe about the ‘holocaust’ Eli Wiesel had made a big career of saying bodies were burning outside in big pits and babies were brought along in trucks and just dumped on the flames (still alive I think). This asshole/liar is STILL listened to and ‘admired’ long after it is accepted that this scenario is literally PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE bodies are like 70% water and just do not burn like that. So should he be ‘prosecuted’ if you all want to get ‘legal’ about the German people have a good case to ‘prosecute’ scoundrels like Wiesel. This is well known but the “Jewish Community” STILL has no problem with him which makes me wonder about their ‘standards’ Gretchen even suggested I read his book “Night” and that comes back to the point WHY would I read a book by a proven liar. I don’t understand.
The ‘gas chambers’ are a similar story. If anyone calms down and actually reads and thinks they would understand similarly ‘human gas chambers’ never existed nor could they the way they have been described. So again more lies…………..if you guys go on about ‘spreading hate’ now THAT is spreading hate. So should that be prosecuted.?
Margaret goes on about something else Himmler is supposed to have done. It has been shown over and over the Soviets literally blamed THEIR crimes on the Germans, Katyn Forest I am sure Daniel knows the cast is a famous one the Soviets massacred like 2,000 Polish officers tried to pin it on the Germans it was found out the Soviets had done it. Babi Yar a famous so called Nazi ‘atrocity’ in the Ukraine similarly no basis just Soviet lies. There are ‘poems’ and ‘operas’ about Babi Yar just no good ‘evidence’ Whey you are like to so many times by assholes like Weasel and on and on…………..I am at the point I can’t be bothered. If someone lies to me 3 times that’s enough so much for all this crap about read both sides. Well ONE side is an inveterate liar and they bolster it with bogus show trials like the one going on in Germany right now. If you read the papers CAREFULLY you will notice the ‘witness’ stories make no sense starting with flames shooting out of chimneys……………sickening lies……………..
Larry – somehow I appreciate you take the time and I don’t feel you just ‘anal-ise’ me it feels quite insightful in places. For sure I have a thing about belonging to some kind of ‘counter culture’ and of course that tends to change over the years. It has been kind of constant gripe of mine from the moment I got here the PI did not or does not in any sense seem ‘counter culture’ quite the opposite which DOES disappoint me for reasons too long to go into now.
One thing you said yesterday I feel like commenting on. You mention that you change your beliefs depending on your circumstances and understanding but that I don’t. Well I think that is quiet wrong……………even 3 months ago a friend of mine was saying it is high time for me to think/look into/consider 9/11. I always stuck with the ‘orthodox’ story and well was not interested didn’t want to go there etc etc. Well now I have and am as convinced as I can be it was an ‘inside job’ not clear who or where the ‘inside’ is but definitely imo NOT ‘Muslim terrorists’
Phil has his little pet theories about all this but he knows next to nothing about it or me. This whole thing developed slowly with me I think it was last Spring and at least the way I see it vaccines have no basis in ‘science’ I mean to me that’s a big one and I did not expect to think/feel that way. And they once I get over that it’s like I have a bit more ‘confidence’ in myself of increased ‘skepticism’ about well ‘official stories’; in general. And one thing kind of leads to another but even a few months ago well it was when I read Kollerstrom’s book about the London tube bombings convinced me totally for some reasons that it was an ‘inside job’ no ‘Muslim terrorists involved And it was ONLY then I think well if that is true let me actually dig into 9/11. So to kind of show you I am not ‘addicted’ to conspiracies I am actually more ‘allergic’ to them or I used to be at least.
Kollerstrom’s book on the holocaust seemed to me flawless and very well researched so that was another one. He says the ‘holocaust’ is the ‘greatest lie ever told’ and well I take him at his word……………and mull over things a lot. And it’s like if that is some kind of foundational lie of our culture I mean if the foundation is so wrong like what else?
And again nothing planned but I AM more open to considering other ‘lies’ like the moon landing. Now I have to tell you if someone had told me they did not believe in that even 3 months ago I would have said you are bat shit crazy……………..and yet now I am pretty sure no humans ever set foot on the moon. I am not here to argue the point but I feel confident in that ‘belief’
I decided to read Kollerstrom’s book on the ‘replacement’ of Paul McCartney as a laugh almost. I told a friend of mine it’s like let me read the National Enquirer and get away from these ‘heavy’ history books. Well lo and behold he convinced me! I have little doubt now about Paul being replaced. What importance is any of this? Not sure just saying the kind of process I have been going through. Also hopefully to shut Phil up a bit he has not a clue of what he is speaking in general or certainly as it pertains to me. He tries to pigeon hole me into some ‘flat earth/aliens’; stuff or of course anti’ Semitic. I think you can see Larry it has little to do with either one just something that ‘satisfies’ his ‘small mind’
I appreciate you being so open about the things you have believed and how also you changed your mind. I think it’s ‘brave’ to admit you believed in Area 51 etc…………….imagine if I had said something like that Phil would be all over it with his ‘cheap shots’ Also that you changed your mind about anti-oxidants etc…………….I think that’s also ‘brave’ to just say I used to think this but now I think that. That’s cool and thanks Larry I will mull over my need for ‘counter culture’ a bit here………….
Patrick,
You mention me several times here so I thought I would reply. What you say here still emphasizes the ridiculous nature of your theories, something I’ve been repeating. You’ve changed over from ones’s based on evidence, to really faulty one’s, You’re the expert on yourself, so I don’t dispute that. So why is it you take these very counter factual, counter evidence positions , and then defend them here so vigorously, when, to me they are indefensible? My “cheap shots” are so easy to make when you insist on defending such things. You leave yourself open to that. Outside from this blog it wouldn’t be any different trying to defend these things. People will be astounded and turned off about this stuff, to say the least, except for groups of conspiracy believers. Have you met up with any of these conspiracy believers in person?
Phil
That’s interesting Patrick that your perspective has shifted on a number of issues over almost the past year, as you describe. Thanks for sharing that. I think it was brave of you to admit that here on the blog. Maybe the process you’ve been going through is something you need to do, I don’t know, but I’ll be honest it makes me a little worried for for you. I hesitate to say that, but that was my first gut response to what you wrote, well..second. My first response was I’m surprised your being so open and honest, given that it could give rise to more analysis of you stemming from what you admitted.
One thing is for sure, your shift into those alternate perspectives is going to make you controversial here on the blog. You seem to thrive on controversy, so if Jack isn’t hammering away at you, you manage to get the rest of us to. It’s a tough way to live. For some reason want to give you a hug, at the risk of everyone blacklisting me for it.
Patrick, would you read this? Personally, I found it a difficult read but enlightening. More food for thought.
Well since you ask Larry I will try to get around to it. Right now though I have several books (about quite different subjects) but I promise to have a look though it may take a few week. I promise.
Hi Larry. I looked at the editorial reviews of this book. Very informative and interesting. If there is a silver lining to this ‘cloud’ it is the continuing education and remembrance of what happened during the inhuman part of our history. Such suffering. We do read about these things with disgust and horror of what people can do to each other because they don’t feel for another being.
Do agree with Margaret and Erron that the purpose and reason for the blog has been derailed. I think we come here to help or be helped. Mundane are our lives; but important too.
Hope your mom is doing well, Margaret.
Happy Valentines day to all.
Patrick, I should use Jack’s method and quote your ridiculous statements on vaccines and the rest of it. Yes, I’ve reduced your theories for easy reading, in their full complexity they are even more absurd. It seems to me you are very angry and it’s not about Jews, the Holocaust, vaccines, false moon landings, and what have you. Maybe therapy? You’ve made a lot of statements and accusations there too, which we have all seen, and it’s here on the therapy blog where you are ranting and raving. Is that where it started?
Phil
Phil: It’s very effective … seemingly; and I discovered it by pure accident.
No good new yet about my Jimbo, but no bad news either so still crying and hoping.
Jack
I’m thinking of you Jack…., that is terrible to be waiting on that news.
Phil
Phil: Thanks; but it’s ok, since I have relatively easy access to my tears which takes away some of the pain and anxiety. We both have to wait and see. My trouble is that I am scared lest something happens to my Jimbo. It’s not a life and death matter, but it would be a whole new beginning without. him.
Jack
> now I do not want to get sucked into this discussion but today happpened to run into this and will post it anyway.
> Himmler already started the ‘denial’ back in ’42 when he ordered to dig up the mass graves the Einsatz troops left I think in Russia, and start burning the corpses as to try and get rid of the proof..
> they knew thy were doing something completely unacceptable in other words.
> they also tried to hide a lot of what they did even while doing so.
>
> and Patrick, should I feel offended for being called blind? I am rather blind than stupid and full of bitterness.
> M
So I came to Los Angeles for Primal Therapy in 1992 and on advice of my therapist I overstayed my visa and was advised to do moving households for the money I needed for therapy. What a brilliant advice it was.
I noticed that houses in Los Angeles County and other counties were made of wood and we had to sometimes move furniture out of houses mostly in Beverly Hills and Bel Air back then that had to be fumigated because of termites. Termites are some kind of ant-type insect with wings, small and seemingly harmless, but if you have them in the wood of your house you might want to opt for fumigating. If you don’t your house is less valuable and probably gets eaten away.
The process of fumigating (gassing) is quite time consuming, first the entire house gets tented, signs get up to warn people about what is to happen and once the house is tented, the gas is released. So on day 1 the tent is going over the house and the gas gets released. During the night and part of the next day (day 2) the critters get gassed and I believe that same day, not sure, perhaps on day 3 and part of day 2 or so, they place large fans inside the house and open sections of the tent to air the place and get rid of the gas. You are allowed to access the house on day 4 only, to place furniture back in. Can’t remember exactly.
If you get in on day 2 or day 3, which some customers wanted us to do, probably because of a busy schedule or perhaps fear of break-ins, or maybe because we were just movers, if you get in on day 2 you are not going to be a happy camper. What kills those itty-bitty bugs might cause you to get sick as well or worse, it’s just not a good idea to go in at that time.
Then I see a documentary and I see a jewish person saying he worked at a gas chamber getting the dead bodies out. According to this person hundreds of people were gassed at a time and the job was done in 20 minutes or so. Within a half hour with the SS on their backs they open the doors and get the bodies out.
Which is the true story????????????
Depends on whether or not you and/or the jewish person are telling the truth.
Larry: Your comment set off a feeling in me that is dated back to some of the insights I gained in the early part of my therapy. “What is truth … and who is the decider????” I seemed obvious to me that there could be no-one to decide, but me myself for myself. That led me to then approach the idea of belief. What ensued for me was that I realized the very nature of the use of that word. Belief in essence is a verb that conotes ‘we do not know’ but as with my mother and her belief in God; I saw it as a mental mechanism to make it appear as if it was nearer the “truth” than the “falsehood”. BUT is in essence I had to admit I did not know. Then I was no nearer to a clearer idea as to what was “truth” and what was “falsehood”.
All I remained with was to trust my feelings. So!! I abandodond the notions:- “Truth” and “Falsehood”. Now all I had was my feeling. I now began to understand that what was my feeling was anything but anyone else’ feeling. That incluided my mother.
This whole discourse with Patrick leaves me with:- ‘that is what he wants to believe’. I personally can let it rest there in-so-far as his feelings… BUT I will not allow him to destroy this very useful blog; if I can help it.
All this allows me some distraction for my other current issue.
Jack
Good. I’m glad you are finding some distraction. When will you know more about the cause of Jim’s symptoms?
Just look at the chair next to you and ask Patrick
Jack,
Certain things, I think, can be established as facts. Not, for example, who made a mess in the kitchen last night and didn’t clean up. I have strong suspicions on who did that, but can’t quite say it is a tact. The Holocaust is one of those things that has been established as a fact; but not every single detail about it. The important parts have been factually proven; that millions of Jews, gypsys and others were killed by the Nazis during WWII. That the process of evolution takes place is an established fact and not just a belief. It is supported by all kinds of scientific evidence.
On the other hand that god created the earth and mankind is a belief unsupported by evidence.
Phil
Maybe to try to lighten things up a bit I can imagine people have it up to here with the holocaust. This is Kollerstrom on the Paul McCartney ‘replacement’ story. Maybe look at it as a bit of light relief I wonder if Otto or the Ultimate Guru have any opinions on this.
I do not think it is one of Dr K’s better outings……………..I ‘worry’ about him sometimes he seems stressed like he blinks a lot and seems to grab for his breath sometimes. That does not seem a good sigh. I can imagine the poor man might be under huge stress to take on the holocaust story bring nothing but grief and hostility and incomprehension and defensiveness as i am finding out and questioning the London tube bombings well that does not make for friends in high places. Even this Paul story could put him in some danger who knows. I hope nothing happens to him the world will be a lot poorer when he goes and it’s turned over to mostly lying mediocrities
What the fuck does any of this Holocaust to and froing have to do with primal therapy, indeed, with feelings in general? Why does the Primal Institute allow this bullshit? Time and again I sign on this blog to see if there’s anything new or interesting to report about primal therapy, and all I see is the same small bunch of fucked up neurotics turning over the same turds.
Not a good look for primal therapy at all…
Erron
> Larry,
> is that all you can say about the comparison between the gas chambers and the gassing of a house against termites?
> that one of them has to lie?
>
> It seems a farfetched argument as both things might be very different, different products used and different settings, and different level of concern about the people having to go in there afterwards.
>
> I am so fed up with all the crap onhere, it does not seem constructive in any way, and spoils a blog that should be open for primal feelings and vulnerability.
>
> seems to be becoming a forum for antisemitic and denialist propaganda and I am so fed up with it.
>
> any attempt to talk about the ground of the matter gets responded to with insults, I wish indeed there would be boundaries, but maybe that is part of some old feeling too.
> it does make my day start off with loads of well, what Zappa might have called slime oozing out of my laptop in this case..
> how long will this keep going on, it seems way too long already.
> M
Did I say that one of them has to lie, Margaret. You are putting words in my mouth. I also don’t see there is an argument in that question either. I don’t see there is a point to the question at all. Given only what Anonymous presented, there is no way to know which story is true, or whether both are or neither is.
But the question made me reflect and realize something about myself, that I tend to be skeptically trusting, willing to be open to believing something at first encounter but keeping an eye always open for why I shouldn’t. My first impulse is that both stories are true and I tentatively believe both, but I need more information. I don’t know Anonymous. What is his/ her intent. She/he might be just mischievously stirring the pot. Why did Anonymous imply that one of the stories is false? Why is Anonymous staying anonymous? Why so indirect and mysterious? I sort of don’t trust Anonymous.
When I say ‘I also don’t see there is an argument in that question either’, I’m referring to Anonymous’s question.
Patrick, you say, “it is accepted that this scenario is literally PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE bodies are like 70% water and just do not burn like that”.
Accepted by whom? Again you speak with certainty about things you haven’t bothered to really check out and portray them to be accepted truths. The Hindus have been burning their dead regularly for centuries, unfortunately people burn in homes and automobiles, sometimes beyond recognition, and Dr. Elayne Pope, a forensic scientist at the University of West Florida, has been studying this issue in detail. There’s a story about her work in The New Scientist, too gruesome to quote here, but you can read it here (it includes a detailed description of how the human body burns).
So again, by whom it is accepted that bodies cannot burn like that? Or would you have us believe you’re more erudite in these matters than the Hindus or these scientists?
You go on to say, “Babi Yar a famous so called Nazi ‘atrocity’ in the Ukraine similarly no basis just Soviet lies. There are ‘poems’ and ‘operas’ about Babi Yar just no good ‘evidence’.”
Really? How about official Nazi dispatches from the mobile death squads in the USSR themselves who sent regular reports to Berlin? Einzatzguppen report No. 101 sent to Berlin on October 2, 1941 details the exact dates (29-30 September), the number of those executed (33,771), and the perpetrators who participated in the murders (Sonderkommando 4a in collaboration with Einsatzgruppe HQ and two Kommandos of police regiment South). This dispatch corresponds with testimonies by one survivor of that massacre, the testimonies of some 20 prisoners (of 329) who later were forced to exhume the bodies and burn them, and the personal diaries of Kiev inhabitants who saw the Jews being gathered and marched in that direction, never to return, and later heard of what was going on. When all put together the evidence is overwhelming.
Eli Wiesel is but a single eye-witness and victim and historians didn’t base their conclusions on his account, and you calling him “proven liar”, “asshole” and “weasel” says nothing about him but, again, everything about you. And by the way, the only “proven liar” in these matters is another one of your heroes, David Irving, who actually has a judge’s ruling that says so.
Again and again you present, without a shred of doubt, outrageous axioms that have nothing to do with reality and accepted only by those for whom anti-Semitism counts as complex research method. This shouldn’t be allowed to go on. As long as I was a detached observer you looked like a six-year-old boy throwing a tantrum in tight underpants, but I cannot remain a detached observer anymore: This is my history, my family, my people.
To be clear, I’m not writing now to persuade you – I’ve given up on that – but to counter your slander so others who might be reading this will not get the idea that what you’re saying has any merit. And I’m writing with Google’s algorithm in mind, that one day just might make a connection between the Primal Institute and Holocaust denial.
So, I agree with Erron and Margaret, this has gone far enough, way beyond a regular discussion, and I think Gretchen should consider protecting the blog and the PI from all this crazy talk by deleting any comment of yours that includes these libels and hate talk.
And a final note to myself: I keep forgetting that one should never use the word “You” with a paranoid.
> Daniel,
> thanks, great comment, intelligent and to the point, I agree with everything you said.
> M
> Larry,
> ok, sorrry then, I must have misinterpreted the comment you wrote then.
> I really thought you meant one of them had to lie.
> sounded like it might be Joop, but well, frankly I do not care as it sounds like just one more of the denial believers.
> M
If this were group, nobody would have got far with all the above head trips, struggling, arguments, crazy writing, abusiveness, etc…..
Jo: RIGHT ON. Feelings, feelings and more feelings. NOT thinking, thinking and more thinking.
Janov’s message was so, so, so simple. Alas so many wish to remain in the head … which we each of had to do from baby-hood on in. We don’t have to do that anymore. The geni is out of the bottle.
Jack
> Jo,
> yes, and the worst hting is the blog is not inviting anymore this way to write about sensitive stuff, and a lot of people stay away.
> who would wanna be really vulnerable with a bully in the room?
> before I used not to mind too much, but now I feel I also tend to hold back on occasions.
> I am all for what Phil and Daniel also suggested, boundaries.
> I think by now we all have been patient enough, more starts feeling like being in an ongoing situation where someone is being abusive and not being able to do anything about it.
> not an ideal situation imo for a primal blog.
> not to mention what Daniel said about the bad impression checking out the blog must be for whoever that ventured onto it during the last … year(s
>
> and I mean boundaries not only about holocaust denial but also about insulting people that have a different opinion or deliberately trying to be hurtful repeatedly.
> )?
> M
> Sylvia,
> ha, thanks for the Valentine wishes, smiley!
> and thanks for asking about my mom. yesterday she had again a strong tints, which tends to turn into always the same song she knows from Edith Piaf, which drives her crazy in the end.
> so I encouraged her instead of humming along that same song she heard in her head, she would start singing a different song to get the ear-worm out or at least replace it by a different one.
> she started singing old children’s songs which brought up a lot of memories for me too, and she knew amazingly well all the words from the different songs so that was a nice moment really.
> apart from that it was really exhausting to yell the same answers at least five times at the top of my voice to all of the twenty times she tends to repeat every same question during the afternoon.
> and often when she finally hears what I say, she questions it and it still goes on and on and on, and she won’t back off, needs a lot of attention.
> luckily sharing the care with my brother and trying to see the humorous side of things does help a lot and also brings us closer together still.
> we won’t insist too much about the room in the nursing home for the moment, so she can maybe stay in her own home during the coming spring and summer and enjoy the pleasure of fiddling in her garden.
> feel like telling us some more about how your life is Sylvia?
> M
Hi Margaret. So much of what you say reminds me of my mom. Her songs brought her such comfort too. And there was a lot of repetition too, like reading an article in the news three times in a row, not realizing it and trying to get it to sink in. A lot of funny stuff too. Things left on the dining table, like the grocery money, were fair game for her pockets.
As for me I am doing okay. I find a lot of joy in very simple things. A good comedy show can lift my spirits easily. I did not realize that I use to be slightly depressed all the time. When I would watch a movie I didn’t really enjoy it and think all the characters were better than me. What a burden. To me it’s not a small thing to finally feel alive and enjoy simple entertainment. I feel I owe a lot to this feeling therapy.
I have some inflammatory issues so I cook foods that will help that. So I’m not as active as I’d like to be. I’m learning not to be afraid of doctors so much ( it must be the control they have over you.) but am still working on that.
I enjoy doing working around the house, always some little improvement to do. Am hoping for more energy this spring.
Like so much that I can come to this ‘group’ and kibitz for a while too. thanks for asking, Margaret.
Sylvia
Gretchen – I just want to say to you it is OK with me if you feel you have to delete well anything I have said and you can do all 4 years if you want. I don’t like Daniel’s tone it seems almost some kind of ‘threat’ there I mean the thing about Google. I know how vindictive and punitive his type can get after all isn’t it those same qualities that brings up on charges a 94 y.o. man for something he supposedly did when he was 20 and even the ‘charges’ seem to admit he was just working there. That’s enough apparently and that is overlooking that there were no ‘human gas chambers’ there or ANYWHERE else. Typical I might say and Daniel just try to get over I don’t believe any of these lurid stories about ‘gas vans’ and ‘gas chambers’ or ‘burning pyres of bodies that live babies were dumped into. None of it so you can’t ‘make’ me believe but I would not trust you at all to be very vindictive. So anyway Gretchen no idea if my ‘offer’ helps in any way.
PS. You can also while you are at it delete this message.
PPS. And if you have to ‘ban’ me to make Margaret happy so be it you can do that also
quote:- ” I don’t like Daniel’s tone it seems almost some kind of ‘threat’ ”
Oh!!!!! and you are so so innocent and wouldn’t dream of threatening anyone … yeah. You ‘Fucking Hypocrite’
Jack
If your offer helps! – helps you !!- who has sat spewing forth all these years and is now suddenly fearful realizing that your vile attacks are recorded and can be linked to you Patrick.
The only help that we have begged for from you is to go away and stay away. Even that you have admitted to finding impossible. Here again in your constant & everlasting game of blame you hope Margaret and Gretchen can help you with a ban.
Pathetic!
Leslie – I am not ‘fearful’ why should I be I have always called things as I see them. Unless you are another of the ‘slave state’ people who don’t believe in free speech or free thinking. I have been critical of the PI and I see not much reason to alter how I see things in that regard. You might not like it – tough look and it is not my job to make things easier for you. Why don’t you continue with all your nicey nicey ‘support’ or whatever I never try to stop that even if it feels very insipid to me
Leslie – thinking a bit more about this you now over the years have several several pretty severe ‘go’s’ at me where you condemn me etc etc. It’s like chill the f… out lady who do you think you are. You can do your thing and I can do mine. Who the f… do you think you are?……………..what I think you are is a frustrated addled brain who is very busy convincing herself her world is so wonderful and so fine……………..and it does not seem that way to me you shouldn’t have to try that hard to convince yourself. I don’t like the way now because actually I have always let you get away with it in the past you seem to think you can just unload on me just about any old time.I understand you got all your little ‘support’ networks well that does not matter to me I can stand alone……………don’t need your whispering ‘networks’…………….
Quote:- “world is so wonderful and so fine……………..and it does not seem that way to me”
Suggestion:- try Primal Therapy … whilst there’s still time … before something terrible happens to you.
BTW who the fuck do you think you are????? I think you may have got that one wrong also.
Jack
Youtube’s The BBC’s War & Peace: Episode 8. A Beautiful Tale. A touching tale of love, hope, and happiness on Valentine’s Day. Prince Boronsky,talking to himself about the irrepressible young woman Natasha: “She makes me believe in the possibility of happiness. I almost think I could be happy again.” I cried a lot yesterday at the PI, about the loss of my best friend in 1973. I had actually been cut open by a Rolling Stpnes song on the way to work earlier in the week, it knocked me for a loop and i had a big weep moment driving in the car. This was a song, I rarely hear it on the radio, and I didn’t even know the name of it (Rocks Off) , but as I heard it play from the radio in the dark early morning dash to work, I immediately saw my friend’s face, then I saw him sitting down in his beanbag in his little apartment probably 1972. I would stop by to get high and listen to music. This is big for me, to break down so easily in the car. So crying at the PI while listening to the song, once again I did not think I was going to have access to any feelings just by going to the PI by myself, but luckily I did. As I cried, i saw many memories of those childhood days. We first met in in the streets of Belmont Shore, we stopped on our bikes and said Hi, whatever. I am not a great story teller here. We went to Junior High School and had a typing class together, and he always joked to me about the teacher and we typed creative funny fake letters, signed by the “President”, about dropping bombs (it was VietNam war time, and I don’t think I really knew what the fuck that was about in the 8th grade). I pulled him over in the hall by our lockers and I recruited him to play Captain Koch in my little 8mm movie I was making down at the bay. He was not certain that he wanted to be in the movie, for his part in in it was to be accidently jabbed by my seaman’s knife and thus fall over backwards into the cold waters of Alamitos Bay. We did lots of things together, I told him of my impossible crushes while we were in his garage folding newspapers for his paper route. The crazy times we had in the Sea Scouts and of course he was always joking about our lucridous leader, a salty old retired Navy officer who had us sanding barnacles off our a boat that he had mysteriously procured., and the long boat cruise we made up the coast and how I sickened everybody with my cooking on the boat. Well it was probably the happiest time in my life back then, for a while, of course there was always the ever-present loneliness and the inevitable fall into drugs and alcohol. An insight I had was that one of my earliest ways to combat the insanity of my very early life (loss of mom before age 1 and very unsteady care until about age 5) was to push down the pain by eating too much, bottle milk actually. They kept giving it to me and I guess it quieted me down. And that I kept overeating over the years to keep that early insanity at bay, especially when triggered by anything resembling grief. And how all the years of my life have been full of grief, and they are all chained together in one big package. Anyway, I cannot say this clearly now, it was clear to me yesterday. I really don’t feel like writing today, but I thought I should, don’t know why I should. Gave my kid a cake at his AA birthday today. I parked near ucla and it took me 40 minutes to walk to the meeting because I got confused about where the parking would be during the marathon. Anyway, he was going to come back with me afterwards, so we had a good Indian buffet on Wilshire, we were the only ones in there, the straggler walkers were still headed towards the beach. Then we walked the 40 mins back to the car. They always talk about amends in AA. There are no amends I can do for my son. I was such a lousy father, he is lucky to be alive today. Anyway, whatever. I didn’t cry at all about my dead dogs and cat yesterday, just my dead friend. I don’t feel much relief, although there might be some lesser need to eat all the time. The grief of my life is an endless solid mass that knows no bounds, but maybe it is breaking up a little now.
Otto, you had so many losses. It’s great you’re having an easier time crying.
I hope it will start to bring you more relief.
Music is a great help to me too with feelings. I have a large list of songs which can trigger me for whatever reason. They express something
I’m feeling, remind me of someone, or some period in my life.
Phil
Margaret, as a reply to something you said earlier about your cat (cats?), thank you for your reply. I think I am in the anger stage of loss, I have been there for a lifetime. I think the worst thing is, that I do not understand death at all. It is just mind-boggling. Doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to me. 20,000 penguins starving to death because an iceberg blocks their way to the sea. Soldiers marching forward in neat lines towards each other and these young men just dropping randomly, hit by bullets.What are they thinking, safety in numbers? Run Forrest run! ah whatever. life is rough but i guess it is the only game in town. Like PT is the only game in town for me, I don’t think there is anywhere else in any medical genre in which the treatment is to promote weeping. Does it even mention that in Wikipedia?
Patrick, I saw above that you liked Day Tripper or you felt it was pertinent to the discussion that was going on. I like Day Tripper and I cannot recall what moves me about it. “It took me so long to find out” maybe. It took me forever to find out that the picture of my mom sitting on our tv years ago, was a picture of my mom. That is SO how in the dark I was, as a child, about what had gone on so early in my life.
ok, so i went back and read what you wrote Patrick, about oneway ticket to no where. You said you still had an inkling of hope. In January. Sounds good to me. I hope your hope was gotten bigger, now that it is February. It could be a good year for some of us. but i am going to keep my hope to a minimum. Otherwise, in my experience, the other shoe tends to drop, usually with a bigger sound than the first, and usually landing squarely on my head.
By the way Patrick, i wanted to ask you, not “Do you remember where you were when Kennedy died” (ha), but where were you when you first heard Day Tripper?
I guess what i left out of my post about my dead friend, and how that Rocks Off song made me immediately see his face in my mind, I guess we listened to it together at one time, or it was on the radio at that particular point in my life. I think my musician mother passed her musician mind to me, so that all the events in my life have had a clear association, one way or another, to the music that I was listening to at the time that those events were going on in my life. I think it is an insight that i had yesterday.I am not saying this to anyone in particular on this blog. I just wanted it to be recorded for posterity. now i will shut the fuck up.
Otto – I do remember where I was when Kennedy died, I would have been 11 y.o. I was upstairs in the attic at home my Mom was there and it was on a little transistor radio we had. Yes it did make a big impression something I would never forget. Remember also Kennedy was Irish and Catholic so we felt very ‘proud’ of him he was one of ours that made it in the world. Also he visited Ireland during his Presidency and was of course treated like a rock star. Many people (not us) in their homes had little ‘statues’ of him so there he would be on the mantle piece next to maybe say the Virgin Mary. So it was a very big deal.
I have never gotten into that ‘conspiracy’ though I imagine it was more that just Oswald. Even at the time the idea that some OTHER guy just shot the shooter felt/smelled real weird like even to a child I remember thinking something off about this. But I have never followed up on it.
No I cannot remember when “Day Tripper” was on the radio I just looked it up it was late 1965 just a little bit before I listened to music a lot. The Beatles ones I remember a bit later was “Paperback Writer” and one I really liked at the time “Penny Lane” Otto do you have any interest or take on this ‘replacing’ Paul business? Just curious. IF the story is correct “Day Tripper’ and “Paperback Writer” would have been ‘old’ Paul and “Penny Lane” ‘new’ Paul lol
I have always really liked that Stones song you mention “Rocks Off” has an amazing explosive beginning riff………….it’s from “Exile on Main St” if I remember correctly
BTW Kollerstrom in his book about Paul and just going along with his ‘logic’ here implies keeping that secret was a huge burden on John Lennon who also had a reputation as a great ‘truth teller’ He goes into his going to primal therapy just a little bit and how keeping that ‘secret’ may have impelled him in that direction in that he needed some kind of release from it. I wonder if Art Janov knows anything about it though of course it would not be ethical to say it.
The way you describe it, it sounds like Kollerstrom doesn’t have any real information, he is just guessing. I am actually curious to get one of Kollerstrom’s books just to see how he strings together and substantiates his ideas.
Larry – well imo you could not be more wrong about that! To maybe play book reviewer I have read 3 of his books and found them all wonderful, readable thoughtful very very smart teeming with ‘insights’ you might say.
My ‘favorite’ one though it is a close call is “Terror on the Tube” about the bombings in the London Underground. I am aware I have personal reasons also for liking this so much in that it is ‘set’ in London and I lived there for 5 years in the ’70’s. So that’s something you would not have……………still I find it to be a marvelous book and what it did for me is to open up the whole question of ‘conspiracy theory’.As I said somewhere else I considered myself to be ‘allergic’ (like Phil lol) to that sort of thing and yet to me at least he ‘proved’ this was an ‘inside job’. It was ONLY then I thought wait a minute IF that is true what about 9/11 what about this what about that what about the other thing.
HIs book on the ‘holocaust’ is very good also imo “Breaking the Spell” what’s good about it IS based on vast reading and knowledge of the subject but he wears his ‘learning’ lightly The book is not huge about 250 pages so it is not a hard read and to me at least he still weaves it all together. He is especially good on more ‘recent’ discoveries the British de-crypts’ (what the Brits learned from breaking the German codes which was so important for them winning the war but also now as a look into the REALITY of what the German high command was dealing with and talking about. Also the release of a lot of Soviet documents from the ’90’s and especially the studies of the walls of Auschwitz and what that ‘tells’ us about the use of cyanide gas, where it WAS used and where it WAS NOT used. Anyway I would highly recommend
HIs book on Paul McCartney I only got because I liked him so much………….and did not expect much. But again I loved it a really great read AND ‘convincing’ he convinced me at any rate. This is maybe a light read and maybe a good place to start – if you do or feel like it – in that it is totally readable and most people are interested in the Beatles in one way or another. Again not a huge book just over 200 pages. You can have endless fun with song lyrics their ‘meanings’ etc etc……………..and every time now I hear a Beatles song I go is that Paul or Faul or was that before or after…………….just a silly game to play………
Patrick, I’m not sure what made you feel threatened by Daniel. I read everything written and I saw nothing that gave me that feeling. His type ?? Gretchen
I have not looked at the blog since last Sunday (progress!) but just looked now. Gretchen – my first reaction here is ‘cheap shot’ …………..in that you now seem to be ‘baiting’ me as some supposedly ‘anti Semite’ or whatever . I saw a ‘threat’ in that he is saying the PI blog will get linked or associated with ‘holocaust denial’ and somehow someone (me !?!) might be held responsible. Keep in mind in most European countries this is NOT an idle threat. There are too real consequences as a lot of people have found out to their cost. But it’s like you are putting words in my mouth…………….but what do YOU think? Is it his ‘type’ or your ‘type’ as the case may be. To me at least it seems typical of what I call ‘slave state’ thinking and behind that ‘show trials’ etc etc. That’s why I find a lot of the later discussion about ‘science’ and ‘beliefs’ etc pretty irrelevant though I did think Renee made some very good points. It seems ‘beliefs’ most always precede ‘science’ and the science in reality mostly just bolsters the beliefs. I know you apply that to me also…………..but my thinking/feeling about it is I have actually stood outside a lot of the ‘beliefs’ and really at least tried as best as I can to just look as clearly and as un-distractedly as I could
quote:- “but my thinking/feeling about it is I have actually stood outside a lot of the ‘beliefs’ and really at least tried as best as I can to just look as clearly and as un-distractedly as I could”
I feel most are very aware of your thinking … but in-spite of adding the “/feeling” to it, there seems to be little change in how you express it all. You are out to prove something it would seems, but exactly what is very vague, AND I actually doubt you know exactly what yourself. You have what I would claim to be a Donald Trump proclivity … a lot of shouting, mouth twisting, and thinking that only you, like him, has any real answers. The rest of us are some variety of sheep.
You seemingly read a great deal, but I wounder what is happening in your head as you read. I could be wrong, but it appears to be a desperate search to make your belief the reality for the rest of us and for the planet, solar system and perhaps the universe.
For someone that seems to want to have everything ‘under his hood’ I wonder that it appears NOT to give you any real satisfaction, peace of mind, contentment and sure as hell, no grace.
Ok now we know you failed the therapy, though would prefer to say “the therapy failed you”. We got the message loud and clear. Now you can go back to country Kerry and tend the real SHEEP that appenrently your brother tends.
Jack
Daniel, referring to your remark about talent night further up the blog….I think that stopped around 1996 ish. It was early days in my therapy and I dreaded it, as I couldn’t show any part of myself at all.. but loved seeing the talents of others of course! Did you partake? If so, what was/is your talent?
I’m liking your clarity in what you write here, and curious also what you do currently, and on what continent!
Thanks Jo. I used to enjoy talent night very much although I never participated in it myself. I play some guitar but never felt good enough to play in front of an audience. Some of the participants were very good some not so much but still brave. One guy even read his autobiographical application to the Institute (it was a bit embarrassing).
In one of those talent nights I sat in the back next to Art who was invited to these evenings and was very brave himself when couple of girl patients put on a very funny skit in which he opens an institute in Acapulco.
I’m a clinical psychologist and I practice and teach psychotherapy, the more intensive the better. This of course wouldn’t have been possible without being a patient at the PI. I don’t do or teach Primal Therapy (I wasn’t trained for it) but include some of the ideas because I think they are very important. I don’t use the word Pain quite the same way Janov uses it, but instead put it in the wider context which I think is very much implied in Janov’s thinking, and that is the concept of Truth. Janov’s focus on Pain is not just the attempt to get rid of it but to me, even more so, his insistence on truth – personal, subjective truth. Pain is something we naturally tend to avoid but I feel Janov knew truth is something a part of us always seeks, that we need it, that truth is to the mind what food is to the body, and that meeting that truth (in a proper setting) will promote growth instead of tragedy.
And of course we all try to avoid certain truths about ourselves because they are indeed painful.
Good to know more of you Daniel.. yes- hats off to the courage of patients.
I’ve never met Art, and now hardly ever read anything of his any more; I find (especially) his earlier revolutionary books amazing but ultimately distracting as I expected to be free of neurosis by six months! Ha! – i.e. I can only be me, with my unique pace..etc. My (only) therapy experience has been with Vivian’s PI, and these days predominately with Barry and Gretchen and the Retreats, with a sprinkling of this Blog.
> called mom around lunchtime to remind her of the freshly cooked meals she had in the fridge, but after several returns to the fridge and other spots she could not find them, so either she ate the last one during the night, or threw it away, or overlooked it, but she promised to warm up a frozen meal when she’d feel like it.
> called her by seven pm again, and as usual she thought it was early morning, kept comming back to being convinced it was morning, after I had told her repeatedly it was evening, until finally I could make her switch the tv on for the evening news, which will help her remember it is nighttime and not morning.
> although she does not seem to suffer too much with all this, it does affect me, saddens me and makes me feel tense, concerned, worried, scared..
> doing the best we can, without getting in arguments…
>
> Otto, lately you sound like you made important steps, that’s nice to hear.
> and despite feeling you are still in the anger state you also seem to be getting access to sadness, hope you can keep using music as a way in.
> when the feeling is there almost any music seems to work for me,, my all time favourites are Lennon, Kevin Ayers, Chet baker, Neil Young, all good to open those gates..
> lots of other music here but that’s more for fun and nostalgic beauty, like Yes, Jethro Tull, Alexis Korner, Pink Floyd, Genesis etc. etc.
> can’t often find the peace of mind though to just lay down and listen to music, which is what I prefer doing though when being in love, then daydreaming is a passtime on its own.
> long while ago though right now..
> M
So, Daniel, are you saying that we tend to seek some truths but avoid others? Just curious. I would suggest that the more we avoid certain truths about ourselves (which we probably do not know we are doing, most of the time), the more selective we will be when seeking other truths. I am currently reading a book called “The believing brain: From ghosts and gods to politics and conspiracies—How we construct beliefs and reinforce them as truths”. It is illuminating, to say the least. I have just finished reading about holocaust deniers and how they come to their beliefs. It definitely shed light on Patrick’s views and put them in a context that made sense to me. And it has definitely made think more about what I take to be truth what the underlying belief is.
Renee: Not to interrupt what you are saying to Daniel, but I think I remember who you are from a long time ago and I hope you take the time to post here more often about anything you want to discuss.
Welcome to the blog.
Yes, to a degree. More that we have different forces withing us, one pushing toward truth and the other pulling away from it when it is painful.
Thanks for the book recommendation.
Hey Renee, So nice to see you visiting the blog! I hope you are well and would love an update! Someone else mentioned this author to me ( likely because of recent discussions on the blog) . If I understand correctly I believe he and Daniel might be of like mind in that they put the emphasis on education and science. I will read this soon to see for sure but it does sound like a fascinating read. By the way I just bought Yaloms most recent book which I have not started as Barry called dibs first! 🙂 Gretch
Gretchen, I put emphasis on education always, and on science too except not in psychotherapy, at least not psychotherapy of the dynamic kind. There science is of less help, at least to me.
> hi Renee,
> how are you doing?
> M
Hey Daniel, Yes I could not agree more! I also thought what you said about truth was extremely important and very much my thinking as well. When I mentioned education and science I was referring to some of the things you said to Patrick about investigating the Holocaust. I’m not sure if you know this but there are many who don’t participate on the blog but read it faithfully and many who prefer to write Barry or I with their thoughts. So many have specifically mentioned you and we’re very impressed with your knowledge and insight. I am as well! By the way where do you live and practice? Gretchen p.s. Unless you would prefer not to say
Thanks Gretchen. I’m glad to hear many more read the blog. I’m in two minds about revealing where I live, because this is an open blog that everybody, anywhere, can read, and therefore indexed by search engines. I don’t mind anybody here on the blog knowing because I actually choose to speak to you, but in order to keep this speech free I need to preserve my privacy from the rest of the world.
Maybe it’s strange these days to try and keep one’s privacy, as I’m sure that before they’re 21 anybody will be able to know almost anything about my children who now grow up into and feed this internet beast.
Daniel: In no way would desire to deny you, your wish for privacy; however, this comment of yours brought me to thinking about “privacy” in my case.
I live with my Jimbo who’s desire for absolute privacy is uppermost all the time. It restricts me somewhat to talk about him, or our relationsjip; especially on this blog. It inhibits me to some extent to be open, honest and direct about myself, for fear of upsetting him. It manifest itself in a hundred different ways that might seem unimportant. I wonder often from a Primal perspective about all this.
He, Jimbo, goes to great lengths to keep himself so ‘private’ sometime to the detrement of our relationship. I wonder often how to reconcile this in terms of my desire to be totally open especially on this blog. One example right at his moment is to say how I am affected by his current health status. I have been crying a lot about the potential, especially since there is a posibility of it being terminal. This in turn causes him to not let me know how he feels, and as I see it there are somethings I need to be clear about in the event of a worst case scenario.
My therapy for and to me, is to be as open as I know how, and take what ever consequences that entails and in the case of the on-going “to and fro” between Patrick and I, has led to him revealing everything he knows about me in order to upset and get back at me. Should I close down about myself I fear that I could very easily go into denial about who, what and why I am .. the person I am.
I hope you don’t take offense at my respose, which solely applies to me. Sadly, I had to shut down to my ‘daddy’. Now I wish to revese that proclivity. My best example is:- I have not the slightest intention to hide my sexual orientation.
Anyone wishing to respond to this my comment … feel free to do so.
Jack
Jack,
Interesting what you say, does Jim read the blog? My wife Juana has somewhat
similar concerns about what I might talk about, here, other forums, or on the phone with buddies.
That I have to talk in private probably emphasizes it for her. She very rarely has any phone conversations that have to be private from me. She has at times expressed worries about what it is I say and what people must think of her. She suspects it isn’t always good things I’m talking about, otherwise I wouldn’t need therapy, and she’s right about that.
For therapeutic purposes I do, of course, have to talk about my relationships, although I haven’t often done so on the blog as I find it less useful here.
Phil
Phil: No! Jim does not read the blog and he is in no way a Primal person. His background is in medcine and sticks with that. I used to talk to him about what was taking place with Patrick, but he felt that I was overtly obsessed about him; though he was aware of what was taking place at the time I was working with Gentle Giant. He didn’t particularly like Patrick, but kept his distance.
I am aware that I have some very radical ‘way out’ ideas, most of which I have written about in my first book. Some of those ideas have put some peoples back up against me, for those ideas. Most of these ideas I formulated way before therapy or reading “The Primal Scream”. I have come in for some major criticism from several sources, and also from quite a number of patients at retreats.
As I see myself and the therapy; it is to be as open, honest and direct as I possibly know how. I feel I have had a great deal of value with this. However it does put me way out on a limb. I have less problems with this as time has progressed, most of it emanating after I landed a major job with the local health office in the town I was born in. But then during that time I was arrested for cruising as a gay man and was headlines in the local newspaper. Suddenly from what should have been a major embarrassment, I realized that I had gained “instant and total freedom”, from my parents, my siblings, all my relatives and all the people that knew me from the town. I was suddenly able to do what I wanted to do, and was under no obligation to anyone.
As Barry B would say, I had an epiphany. That was the beginning of becoming a long learning process in terms of “freedom”, as I was later able to describe it. There was now nothing to hide. I was public … and “privacy” seemingly evaporated. However there are something I would not wish to make public. The major one being just how much I have in the bank, my bank account number and a few other of little relevance. Interestingly, one thing I have said on this blog is that hiding, particularly the most public aspect of almost every one us is:- our first names. Hence I find pseudonyms to be of little value. However, for those wishing to hide anything, is for each of us to decide for ourselves.
Jack
Jack, I don’t feel denied at all by your words. I understand your wish to be as open as you can on the blog and I admire that in you. Your Jimbo has a point with which I sympathize: personal stuff always gets to include, sooner or later, others who did not choose to write in a blog open for all to see. I feel that way about my wife and children. So if I lose my anonymity so would they.
But it’s not only them, it’s me. Anonymity is a way for me to feel comfortable, and I know it’s also a personality preference of those who like me don’t feel comfortable in the limelight, especially with their private lives.
Daniel: I understand implicitly; It is a matter for each of us to decide for ourselves. Where the downside is, for me in not being open. Case in point:- At age 13 I came out to my siblings about my sexual orientation and my oldest sister immediatly jumped in with:- “I just hope you don’t bring disgrace upon the family”. This initially put a damper for me on coming out to all and sundry. At that time I was neither ashamed nor proud of my sexuality. Now my sister had put a condition upon it. When in fact I was finally arrested (in those days just being homosexual was a crime). What was ironic was that both grandfathers were ‘skeletons’ in the family closet, and it was kept from us kids until we were adults.
Looking back on it all I do realize that I played my part in the eventual repeal of the “sodomy law”. Howeveer without comitting sodomy that law meant I could be prosecuted and imprisoned for up to two years; as was the famous case of Oscar Wilde.
Was it my duty to protect the families reputation OR, did my life belong to me???? I in no way pretend to be any kind of marter, BUT it is those that are willing to ‘stick their neck out’ , that affect eventual change (a la public sentiments)
As I see it, it is those hiding in closets, calling it privacy, when there is privacy and privacy, that permits the ‘status quo’ to continue, but subliminally hoping someone else will effect the change. My Jimbo is such a person, BUT that is not a matter for discussion between us. I have to leave at that as per our relationship.
Meantime, he, my Jimbo, is in great pain, but has to wait for his appointmen this coming Friday. I am both afrad and desperately hoping. One of the downsides of getting old.
Jack
I typed out eight different messages and none of them survived the “Post Comment” button. Too many potential ensuing complications with each message.
Hi Margaret, I’m doing okay. Thanks for asking.
Ug, what you say could be true. But without knowing your real name, I cannot know if I remember you or not.
Gretchen, I’m not sure you are right about the main argument of the book I mentioned. I think the author is saying that it’s the other way around……..we start off with our own beliefs and then look for research, science, “selective” education and other arguments to back those beliefs up. We’re sure we have the truth. And we reject, discount, minimize and/or ignore anything that might challenge those beliefs. That old confirmation bias. Of course, I could be wrong about this. I just started the book and am jumping all around in it. I made the mistake of not starting at the beginning. Oh well….
By the way, are you referring to Yalom’s last novel, “The Spinoza Problem” which came out a few years ago (which I enjoyed) or his very latest book that came out last year (which I haven’t read)?
Daniel, I agree with your responses to me and Gretchen, when I use my Primal belief system. They totally make sense. Not so much otherwise. How do I know if I’m “pushing toward truth” and growing or simply reinforcing my old belief system and staying safe within my comfort zone? Who get’s to decide?
As for your believing that it not helpful focus on or to emphasize science in dynamic psychotherapy, I’m curious to know why not. Especially when there is considerable scientific research that explains and supports the efficacy such therapy (ie. interpersonal neurobiology, neuroplasticity, mirror neurons etc., not to mention Arthur Janov’s scientific contributions).
Scientific research may, as you say, support the efficacy of therapy but not therapy itself. In psychotherapy we talk about what really troubles us, about what is most important to us in our life, and a lot of those things we value most are neither measurable nor predictable (love, grief, creativity, inspiration, our distant childhood, sexuality, etc.) – and this is part of the reason they are so important to us. I recently read somewhere that CBT therapists don’t really follow their manuals as their theory demands, the reason being they meet a human being, and when two human beings meet something opens up and neither of the participants really knows what exactly they will say or how their encounter will transpire or what will the consequences of this encounter be.
When I was in therapy with Barry he sat most of the time behind me or beside me, and it was rather dark as the rooms were dimly lit. I’m not even sure he looked at me and if he did I’m not sure what he saw. Yet some of the things he said to me were very accurate and very helpful. How did he know what to say? I can only surmise he used his intuition – not a very scientific method, yet the most accurate when you want to understand the unconscious part and pain of another person. So intuition, although mysterious, can be an instrument that unearths truth, gets it touch with truth no other way can.
But – and this is very important – this isn’t wild intuition but a cultivated one, an informed type of listening carried out in a role. In other words, the therapist is a professional who comes to work.
How do we know that we are pushing toward truth? I’m not sure there is a clear cut answer, but I would say it starts, as mental life itself starts, with an emotional experience. Eventually it comes down to feeling that something, even if extremely painful, is right, that it supports or sometimes re-establishes one’s continuity of being.
Hey Renee, I think the Yalom book is called Creatures of the Day and might e his most recent. The person who mentioned The Believing Brain had a slightly different take I think. My understanding was the premise was that the brain was a kind of “belief machine” searching for patterns that first create beliefs and then confirm them. But that the author was saying that in the end we must look for not only what’s right about our beliefs but what’s wrong as well and the ultimate answer lies in science. I have not read it yet but I will and of course will form my own belief as to its meaning ha! Anyway thanks for mentioning it plus it looks like he has several other good books as well including one on Holocaust denial. Gretch
Hi to everybody and Renee S. Interesting issue that of believes and I cannot resist the temptation to say something about it.
I read this morning in a newspaper article by journalist Raúl del Pozo concerning what is going on in Spanish politics and society. “Genetically dogmatic Spanish, devotees of sect, voluntary slavery come back; the eternal struggle between moderates and radicals”
Are we Spaniards and human beings in general genetically predisposed to sectarianism and dogmatism?
The answer is yes and no. As we can see in this blog are many ways in which human beings can become sectarian, dogmatic and intransigent. But as important as the ways it is why. And here we know.
Nature has given us the ability to adapt ourselves to the environment and be firm in our beliefs and convictions, but also flexible and willing to change if necessary, as windswept reeds that bend but do not fall.
Our cells have a remarkable ability to adapt. A stem cell can not only reproduce itself, but also transform into different parts of an organism if its environment is changed. Cancer cells are but manifestations of abnormal adaptation to the environment, given adverse circumstances. And once manifest themselves in that way is very difficult to return to its normal state.
In the same way our brain is adaptive, seeks survival. Given favorable circumstances the human organism is adaptable and tends to have in one hand constant beliefs, but flexible ones on the other. Given adverse circumstances, the human organism is put on the defensive and once this happens it is difficult to break this trend, these beliefs, and habits. And that happens in an unconscious or automatic way.
The brain and the human organism generally do not seek truth necessarily, it seeks survival. The truth is an attitude; it’s a motivation, a personal and optional search in progress. While it is true that with the development of science is difficult to maintain certain beliefs in the field of health, economics, history, psychology etc., let alone in science.
Following in the footsteps of scientists like Newton, Einstein and Charles Darwin, it is difficult to hold certain beliefs. Darwin is perhaps the character where the contradictions between his Christian faith and his passion for science came together. It seems that from this struggle between faith and science, Darwin chose science and became an agnostic. At the end his wife was angry and it seems to had said something like that: “Charles, but we will no longer have a place for both in the afterlife”?
I am sorry about what I said about Darwin and his changing his faith it might be half true. What I can say according to the Wikipedia https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin is that in 1880 he wrote a letter to his lawyer Francis McDermott expressing himself as agnostic, but in the History of Lady Hope published 1915 he said when dying that he came back to Christianism. About his wife I am not sure I had read somewhere but I cannot remember where. So I retract about that.
> Sylvia,
> I just reread your long reply to me, thanks, it is nice to learn more about you.
> I can relate to the pleasure of making small improvements to the place you live, it is such a direct way of well, improving life and making it prettier, isn’t it? a way to really take care of oneself.
> but I can also relate to hoping spring brings more energy, here it is freezing and cloudy, and on top of that i heard this morning of the guys renovating the floors above me I can’t use the running water today. luckily they gave me twenty minutes to fill some buckets and use the toilet and get clean..
> poor guys, they finished the appartment above me and now it seems to turn out a water pipe broke and they have to fix stuff once more.
> also in the basement they seem to have a (smelly) problem fixing the pipes to the sewer…
> and with all that doors are remaining open downstairs and as it is a drafty old house I am here with a thick sweater on and a blanket on my knees.. sigh…
>
> so yeah, spring, come on!!!
> trying to get ready for an exam in two weeks in between all the drilling and hammering..
> good luk with your food system agains the inflammations, I have read somewhere tomatoes and potatoes have too much acids and are not good if you have some tendency for inflammations..
> but I am sure you know more about it than I do.
> take care, M
Hi Margaret, sounds like your place will have renovations for a while, older houses are like that, huh; always something.
You are right about inflammatory foods. I try to avoid grains too so that helps. Think I may turn into a squash, I eat so much.
Happy studying for your exams.
I have a little more faith in this pope too. He seems more practical and feeling. And he is only human to get aggravated at Trump; you have to be pretty irritating to get the Pope mad at you.
I think a lot of people are scratching their heads about how Trump has gotten so far.
S
Sylvia – I thought you might like this from JH Kunstler’s blog last Monday. The ‘primal screamer’ he refers to must be Trump an irony in itself and the ‘road tester grifter’ must be Hillary.I like SOME things Trump says like he has more than once said all those countries in the ME would be much better off without out ‘interference’. Something you WON’T hear from Hillary or any of the others not even Bernie. But then all of these guys (and gal) are “Presidents for Israel” the US is sort of a second thought it seems. Trump is sort of instinctively not on board with that agenda but sadly he is pretty much clueless also like this business of keeping out all ‘Muslims” If he was REALLY not on board he would not have been allowed to get this far……………
“Anyone viewing the boasting-and-defamation contests that the cable TV networks call “debates” knows that these spectacles are based on the opposite of thinking. They are not only reality-optional, they’re thought-optional. Hence, it appears for now that America is fixing to elect either a primal screamer or a road-tested grifter to preside over the epochal collapse of our hobbled, exhausted, way of life”
I think of Donald trump as more of an ‘Abreact-or’ than a primaller because he never gets to the root of his anger or else it would dissipate.
Here’s an interesting article about conspiracy theories I happened to see. It’s about how Donald Trump seems to have a penchant for them and I think the article makes some good points about the topic of conspiracy theories in general That a conspiracy theory is the modern equivalent of a myth, a story people tell to explain otherwise inexplicable events. There is a quote form Serbian activist. Srdja Popovic, who says “it’s impossible to debunk conspiracy theorists”, which may very well be true. He also says “the best weapon against conspiracy thinking is laughter”.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/02/why_americans_believe_trump_s_worst_conspiracy_theories.html
Phil
“A conspiracy theory is the modern equivalent of a myth, a story people tell to explain otherwise inexplicable events”. What’s inexplicable about the Holocaust is how anyone could do such a thing.
Last weekend I saw a movie, “Experimenter” about the famous experiment in psychology that showed that average people were willing to give others supposedly severe electric shocks just because the researchers told them it was necessary for the experiment.
I don;t recommend the movie, it was rather boring, but that experiment did seem to show something significant about human nature.
Phil
Hi Phil. It does seem that ‘the Donald’ is Teflon-coated and none of his nutty thinking sticks to him and people put up with it and still consider him a leader.
If he is such a good business man it would seem he should have a more productive solution to the poverty-stricken of Mexico besides building a wall to keep them out. Why not more American companies doing business there and better education for the rural areas. The Pope’s visit there showed the real poverty and instability Mexico is contending with. No wonder he questioned Trump’s Christian faith.
Sylvia,
I’m not seeing the attraction with Donald Trump. He may be winning but I still don’t see him as a serious candidate.
Phil, Let’s hope that Trump doesn’t win the nomination. Everyone acknowledges his narcissistic ways but the other Rep. candidates don’t seem to be strong enough or are too conservative to be good contenders either. Could be this is the public’s backlash to politician’s double-talk–Trump just blurts out what’s ever on his mind and that is refreshing to politics.
If he gets as far to win the nomination it will be interesting to see if women over a certain age will vote for him when the candidates bring their spouses into the campaign. We have a certain expectation of ‘first ladies’ and wonder if Melania will fit the mold. Then again, Trump has broken the mold so far.
Think we need someone level-headed and patient and experienced to deal with the other world leaders.
S
Silvia,
Of the republicans, Kasich gives me the best impression, but he seems to have no chance. I wouldn’t mind Trump getting the nomination as there would be almost no chance he would win the general election. If he did get the nomination, the media frenzy would be incredible. It’s true that Trump comes right out and says what he thinks,
instead of some kind of coded message, and that is refreshing. He can do that, I suppose, because he doesn’t need anyone’s money to continue the campaign and he can always go back to being a reality TV star.
You’re right, Melania would be a different kind of 1st lady, and that would be interesting.
For some reason I enjoy following politics; it’s very much a big game, but an important one.
Phil
Phil – I have a few ‘conspiracy theories’ that hopefully might make you laugh. 17 ‘Muslim terrorists’ took control of huge planes though they could hardly fly a Cessna, NOBODY in any of the 4 planes pushed the ‘hijack’ button these planes caused building to collapse something that has never happened in history before but ‘worse’ than that one 49 story building ‘collapsed’all by itself and 4 other large buildings were ruined in one way or another nothing to do with ‘planes’ but well for convenience we are just going with ‘planes’ ok and all this was arranged by a guy from a cave in Afghanistan it a real ‘conspiracy’ howler that one…………
there are others millions were ‘gassed’ in ‘gas chambers’ but an actual gas chamber has never been seen not has it ever been explained how it MIGHT even work. There is ONE ‘gas chamber’ but it was found to be constructed by Stalin in 1946 and was just a prop for his show trials that’s another real ‘howler’
But the really ‘funny’ thing about these and there are several more of course is that they are believed even though there is huge elements of ‘conspiracy’ in them not only are they believed but any sincere effort to understand what ACTUALLY did happen is called a ‘conspiracy theory’……………..that should give you a few good ‘laughs’
Patrick, I did actually look at the 911 conspiracy theory very closely. This was at the time Bush decided toattack Iraq, which for me was upsetting, as it seemed very irrational. It seemed to me they werejust using all the patriotic reactions as justification to attack another country not even involved. What I found was that all the inconsistenciesin the story have good explanations. You find all of that if you look for it. The buildings collapsingand all the rest has good technical explanations. All the things that conspiracy believers point tohave been refuted. Another thing is, if you think aboutthe very large number of people who would have to be involved in that conspiracy and theenormity of the crime, how is that possible? It would be impossible to maintain such a cover up with thenumber of people involved. To me, that isn’t at all possible, and it doesn’tmake any sense, but I did consider it.Phil
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 20:35:04 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
OK Phil – what is your (quote) good “technical explanation” for THIS
Haley Reinhart – Bennie and the Jets – I saw her in 2011 on American Idol and again tonight. Dont know why I want to cry. She’s just so full of life. Cant cry at home though.
Otto,I recall her singing; “I Who have Nothing” that year, very touching. Thought she would win it. Tom Jones sings it too but Haley tops it. There is a longing in her voice.
Maybe her face reminds me of someone.
i am so fucking lifeless
> Phil,
> I like the quote about laughtr being the best weapon.
> and thanks for the article, will read it later.
> M
> Sylvia,
> I liked what the pope said about Trump, hoopefully it has some effect on some of the voters as to change their mind. i find it a verey scary thought he might be elected.
> this is the first pope I occasionally like..
> M
> learning more about all the cognitive and social impairments Parkinson’s disease can cause, I feel bad about having gotten cross with a roommate in the past that had a starting case of Parkinsons.
> now I understand some of his behaviour was symptomatical and not intentional, if I would have known then I would not have gotten cross at him.
> luckily it never got really bad and it was always quickly sorted out.
> I wonder how he is doing now, must maybe be in a pretty bad shape by now, and I feel sorry for him to have to go through such a nightmarish disease.
> M
I am me. shit. funnier than shit this: z tells me kid2 in havasu. he says it is a long story. kid2’s wife had a baby a few weeks ago but her leg got numbed with some position that she took during birthing. haven’t seen them but twice since the baby arrived and they are only 20 miles away, but down the f’ing 405. why am i saying so much. get to the point. when z told me that kid2 told her he was in havasu, I said Great. Now I don’t have to feel guilty about not contacting him. that’s the funny part. well not really funny, actually tragic of immense proportions. but not all my fault that it has turned out that way. But no surprise, i am a big asshole. Took remaining dachshund to park to walk and look at ducks and hopefully women. No women to look at, some covering their butts with their jackets, so they obviously don’t want to be looked at. Kid1 just got up. He stays here Saturday nights now. I am going to feel guilty about not wanting to do anything with them today but it is tax time, and I need to figure out how much misery I am going to be in with that. Kid 1 will graduate in May phd and who knows if I will ever see him again since his specialty will probably not be found in Los Angeles or many other areas, and I don’t think I want to move out of L.A., though Z says she will go where he is. I came home from the park and Z was on the couch eating breakfast and watching some animal program. She was trying to tell me about the kid and his family gone to Havasu. She wanted to show me a picture of the baby on her Iphone, but I wanted to see the pig that was on the TV. In my defense, my eyes are too bad to see the small picture on the iphone. But yes I am still an asshole. I nearly got killed as a child during tax time when I wanted to play with my violent uncle but he was doing his taxes. Knocked a pencil off his ear because I thought it would be funny. Well, that sure ended up hurting and became a major trauma. Anyway, did I tell you that I am an asshole? Spent hours last night looking for sex on youtube. First there was a French movie that was really an Italian movie about a co-ed that couldn’t keep her legs shut. I could not understand a word that was said. Then I searched for some more of the same kind of explicit sex on youtube and found Hindi women having men rub their bodies on the women, but their tops nor bottoms never actually came off, and I got many tips on how NOT to be such a lousy lover, but it does not matter because I am a lousy lover no matter what, and we are so estranged, there is not going to be any chance in hell anyways. I seem obsessed with sex all the time. So in the end I had to turn to the porn site so I could go to bed and get up and do the same fucking thing over again (not enjoy life in the least, work work work, not get anything, nothing nothing nothing, get older). If I live as long as Z’s father did, well then I got less than a year left to live, and he was probably healthier than me. I took the black cat into the backyard with a leash on him, to somewhat contain him, turning on the web timer for 5 minutes at a time and going out to see that he has not jumped the fence; since the time I left him out there all day, his tail ended getting amputated to the tune of $2500. By the way, did I tell you that all of what I have said is funnier than shit? One more insight, or thought, or whatever. Music is my first language, English 2nd. I say that because I had my first 10 months of my life listening to my mom play the piano and record player. Actually I believe I heard her playing piano while I was still in the womb, because I was inches away from that music as she was playing. Whatever, probably means nothing. As always, I am writing this garbage not intending for anyone to read it, but desperately hoping someone will and save me. Ha. Music is my first language, even though I gave up any singing or trying to learn the piano decades ago; first language in that maybe it took up such a big part of my brain during those 10 months, that it became the dominant language center. Something that I cant quite desctribe, but would partly or wholly explain why music makes me cry so easy. Anyway big ugly scary dead asshole has to do the taxes now.
Otto,
I usually read all your messages as I find them interesting. I continually get the impression that your marriage is in bad shape. If so, maybe it’s better to move on.
I was in this situation off and on over some years. I never wanted to leave because I thought we could fix things up and the kids were young and I didn’t want to hurt them.
These problems were at least partly due to
financial stress as I went through a period of unemployment and/or poor jobs due to some bad decisions I had made. We also had a lot of trouble making decisions. For example, we could have moved to where I could get a job but couldn’t decide to do that.
Finally I got a better job but things were still bad in our marriage. Then I started fooling around on the internet trying to meet women and had a little success making a friend. My wife caught me messaging someone and said that it had to stop. I told her, in that case, I was going to look for my own place and move out because I was sick and tired of our nothing relationship. This was apparently very shocking for her because I never was so decisive before, I had always been the one trying to fix things up or suggesting counseling. She more or less begged that I give it another chance. That was a big turning point in our relationship and things have been good since that time, although we still go through ups and downs.
I’m very glad about that but it should have happened sooner. I think it’s no good to be going on and on in a bad relationship although there could be various reasons for feeling stuck.
Phil
Wow. Good for you for taking a stand.
> Otto,
> your comment made me wonder about when you describe these moments when you feel you behave like an asshole, are you aware of it on the moment itself, or only afterwards?
> I mean, in the first case, is there any chance you could try and modify the behaviour in a conscious effort, even in small ways ?
> it feels such a miserable situation for everyone and if you really feel bad about it would you consider making that effort?
> sorry if this are really stupid questions..
> it just seems you are not happy with the situation yourself so maybe the time is ripe for a change?
> small things can make a lot of difference, like just acknowledgong you would like to be able to join your son and wife today, but tell them about the taxes that need your attention. then they might feel you do care.
> and a glance at the I phone, you know, a lot of people look at baby pictures just to please the proud family member. what does it matter you don’t see much of it as long as well, it is not a set of twenty pictures?
> just wish I could help to make you happier, sorry if unwelcome, I am kind of a caretaker..
> M
Patrick,
Check out this video about the building 7 collapse:
Phil – I don’t believe the ‘story’ put forward here. Had ANY building EVER in the whole history of the human race collapsed like that because of fire. Not that I know of and there HAVE been plenty of serious fires. Oh well…………..there’s always a first time I suppose or so we are supposed to believe………….
Keeping on Rolling Stones songs Kollerstrom says “Ruby Tuesday” is about Paul McCartney dying (I am not sure if he ‘knows’ this or is just speculating) anyway this is an example of how you can have ‘fun’ with some of the lyrics
“She would never say where she came from” ………….about the new guy the ‘replacement’
“Yesterday don’t matter if it’s gone”………….”Yesterday” was of course one of Paul McCartney’s most famous songs and now it’s/he’s gone
And so on………… supposedly John Lennon found out on a Tuesday that Paul had died so “Ruby Tuesday”
Anyway it’s a lovely song and I never ‘saw’ this in it before. Who knows if it’s even ‘true’ but anyway……………..this was one of the ‘weaker’ links I thought but an excuse to put on a lovely song. But Larry I think of you this book about Paul might be a good or at least an ‘entertaining’ way to begin. Supposedly the Stones, Donavan and some others knew what happened (if it did)
Just finished watching one of the Alien movies. Quite a gripping ending. I feel guilty that I spent my Saturday evening alone in my bedroom watching it, but whatever. I have certainly spent much or most of my life being alone, even when there are people around. Anyway, had a deep deep cry in my music therapy at the PI today about my high school years and a few years after that. I cried and cried and it felt like I was almost to the point where I would actually “finish” this feeling of grief and sorrow over the many years wasted in my youth in drugs, alcohol, and aloneness. I am not sure there IS even a “finish” to a feeling, it is just something that a famous therapist said years ago in group. To me, it feels like it would be a major connection, and maybe I would finally get some relief, I could talk to women like other men easily do. Anyway, I did not get to the end today, but I did go deep into those years, remembering so many scenes of my life back then. My “hood”, Long Beach, I left it years ago. I saw the oil fields where we used to see millions of toads when I was even younger than this. The roads I used to take. The faces of my friends Those years were real. I can’t believe that this one song Rocks Off is like a major header for all those years of pain, but somehow it is. I listened to it for almost 40 minutes, over and over. . Once again, I did not think I would have any feelings at all, but they lie apparently just under the surface, and crying came up very easily and quickly. I remembered the last house I shared with my grandmother before I joined the Navy after my best friend was murdered. I remembered how horrible it was to start going to High School. Things started to feel cold in High School, scary even. I realized today that I had no direction, especially after High School. I had a realization that I needed a lot of soothing, and I said mommy a few times, and I really needed someone to soothe me those years, and all I came up with was food, drugs, and alcohol. I started working at Jack in the Box in the summer either before or after I started High School, and I realized today I was working for nothing, where did the small amounts of money go, when I should have been playing with my friends, should have been going on boat cruises in the Sea Scouts. I saw many of the major memories of those years; getting a crush on this girl who paid attention to me, but she already had a boyfriend. Going to Language classes at Cal State Long Beach, why did I keep trying to learn languages. Probably because I was speechless. The folk dancing group I got into at college, hoping I would be able to fuck women, but that came to nothing. It was a commuter college. A lot of older people. Not like the university I had been hoping to go to up north where my friend said he was getting all kinds of sex. I remembered the old arthritic Italian guy that I took care of when I was living down by the Bay in Long Beach. He just to ply me with alcohol, and he was apparently a great womanizer and wife-cheater, from what he said, but he was unable to teach me how to get close to girls. He only wanted to pay me peanuts and have me wipe his butt for him, since his arthritis was so bad that he couldn’t. I remembered my grandmother saying that he was just using me. I remembered the last house that I lived with my grandmother, where I would plain meaningless drivel in the garage on my mother’s piano , full of amphetamines and booze. I remembered my brother abruptly moving out once he got a girlfriend, and I was now alone with my grandmother, 2 parakeets, and our Siamese cat. I remember that I thought I was a genius for drilling a hole into my tv so I could put a connector for a headphone, so I could stay up late and watch old movies on tv and not be disturbing my sleeping grandmother. Alone. I remembered the paper route I got and going down to the place where we wrapped the Times papers with a string-tying machine, with the funky strange older men. I had my mazda station wagon, and I drove around thowing papers at houses, smoking dope and listening to rock and roll as it was progressing into the 70s. Alone. I was a fool in the 12th grade, I had no idea what was about to happen, I had no idea of what graduation or college meant, I just did stupid drug-addled shit with stupid drug-addled people. Once again, while crying, there is a pushing up into my head, like I have been storing these feelings down below my head; and coughing, and I think I suppressed a lot of feelings by smoking which would explain the coughing. Girls and women were my mommy, and since I didn’t get close to any of them, I got no soothing in those rough years. The need for my mommy got translated into sex, so I was obsessed with it. I had male friends but life was slowly disintegrating. That’s enough and I am not going to edit this to make it readable. Another thing a certain therapist said to me or the group, he was in a major feeling and he would have gone into psychosis if someone hadn’t gotten him to stop. Well, I stopped crying today, or the crying stopped by itself. I could see that the psychosis over there on the other side, or as I said above, a good finishing and letting go of this horrible time in my life. I think I am doing this right. Maybe not. That is a rather large feeling, years and years of pain, all wrapped into one. I will trust myself for now, as GB has said I should. Hopefully, all those many hits of acid I took years ago have not made my feeling process illigitimate. But frankly, what is the point here. No relief yet, but it sure feels good to cry. And cry louder this time. More vocal cords involved. I am guessing it will be a whole body thing at some point. Or maybe this is the last thing that I am ever going to feel. I am so fucking warped and bent. Now that I re-read this, it sounds like some of the stuff that I heard a speaker at an aa meeting talk about her booze-addled disaster of a life. Anyway. Whatever.
Otto, very moving…
Otto” you said in this fantastic comment of yours near the end, “I thing I am doing this right” then added “Maybe not” For what it’s worth it sound like you were indeed doing it right. Good on you. I always read your stuff and I am sure many others also do. Take care and good luck. You sure deserve it.
Jack
What a major breakthrough in terms of feelings, Otto. Sometimes I think you are the most inspiring person on the blog, because no matter how bleak and hopeless your life always feels to you (and seems to be), you keep getting up and putting one foot in front of the other and keep on keeping on with the hope of making it better.
And I hope I never get arthritis so bad that I can’t wipe my butt.
I think Ruby Tuesday is about a girl. Probably one in a mini skirt. I think the Stones like fucking women, and this was one of them that one of them fucked. Like John Lennon fucking a woman in Norwegian Wood. My wife was in love with Brian Jones and it is a pity that he died so young. she would have fucked Brian Jones if she had had the chance, and he could have written a song about her. I think the Stones were perfectly capable of writing songs that are NOT about women, such as Cant always get what you want (maybe some of it is about women?) Gimme shelter? also maybe about women. Midnight rambler and that devil song please to meet you, not necessarily about women. some of them they didnt even write themselves, but they revised old Negro songs like Followed her to the station. Thank you Patrick for reminding me about the stones. I have cried many times while listening to Honky Tonk women and I followed her to the station, at the PI, i am not sure at WHICH PI, cotner or pico, and perhaps i will cry while listening to those songs again, as i have always had major problems with women.
Margaret, i dont know how to answer your questions. I am an asshole and shit because someone told me that when i was a kid. I give what I have to give. I am drained. I am hoping that enough crying will change me a little, but i am so battered and so near the end of my life, I am not open to pushing myself to be something other than what i am. I do push myself a little when i can.. I know I am an asshole immediately. In fact, I feel like i am an asshole every minute of the day. Asshole probably is not a really good description of me Piece of shit is more like it..I guess i had already done what you mentioned, i think i told them i had to do taxes, sorry cant join you. cant remember now if i did or not. I just feel no connection to the baby, and maybe it was BB who told us that men might not feel the same way about babies that women do. However I did carry my infant son many years ago, night after night when he had that famous baby sickness, i cant think of the name, some pain in stomach, COLIC HA, crying crying crying he was, walked him back and forth in my mother in laws house late at night, z was totalled for weeks, having had a long labor and subsequent cesarean. i feel bad that I let him slip away around 1994 due to some acting out of mine, and then he became a drug and booze addict because of it. Margaret, you are a dear.
Phil, it is time to move on, if only in my head. I keep listening to Moving On sung by Emmy Lou Harris, in solidarity with the notion of moving on. Z keeps saying to me that we have to make a decision about what is going on here. and yet she has spent us into a hole for 40 years and I am not going to live on the street, so, like i said, i am moving on in my head. and i do care about her, except when she is spending us into a hole.
Phil, i also spoke up to my wife, especially as we were going through 10 years of joint sessions with BB.I had finally realized that I was not the only idiot in the relationship.I hear this guy at work call his wife to wake her up at 6:30 every morning, and talk sweetly to her, Honey. Well that makes me sick, i am all fucked up and unable to give any love, so she spends money. whatever. on the other hand, you can listen to comedian Katt Williams in describing in a very funny but real way, how after many years, you can wake up next to a person saying to yourself who is this ugly ass **$%#$G sitting next to me. ha. ha. i ramble on and on it is late. Actually, that was one very real role model i had of marriage, my aunt berated my poor uncle mercilessly. i guess they had issues.
Otto,
It was more than speaking up to my wife that made a difference. It was starting the process of moving out that woke her up. I didn’t plan that out, it happened spontaneously. It probably wasn’t even a good idea on my part because I didn’t investigate the legal consequences of moving out like that. I was thinking of it as a trial separation.
This was 6 years ago; as it turned out I didn’t make it out the door.
That’s great if you are working on it with joint sessions
Maybe you can reconnect with what you had with your wife in the past, like when you first got together. That’s what happened in our case here. We’ve through a lot together, some of it bad, but there were enough good times in memory to salvage the relationship.
Phil
Sylvia, there is definitely something in her voice, and you are astute to sense it as longing. I should look up longing to see if i can find another word that I understand that means the same thing. I guess LONGING is pretty specific though. Seeing her and hearing her sing made me cry because she is the girls i saw in Junior High who i longed to be close to. I cried because she is my mommy who used to sing and play piano for me. I see something else in her also, not naivete but close to it, not longing, but i cant think of what it is. maybe scared, hurt a little. delicate? fragile? some asshole online called her callous or something equally rude. oh yeah she probably reminds me a little of my 3rd grade girlfriend that i lost when we moved away.
Otto, Longing can be yearning. The dict. says: a prolonged unfulfilled desire or need. Am glad Margaret asked you some questions. Nice to see you gaining so much insight with therapy and sharing with us. Liked your fragile delicate, little girl description of Haley.
You are learning and opening up so much about yourself to yourself.
I agree the shut-down process is as important as the feeling part. We don’t want to turn into little pieces and not be able to function.
You are showing what it’s like to be in the ‘eye’ or storm of therapy, I think a good thing.
boy, what the fuck you running away from? must be horrendous! you know who i talking to. your pain must be unimaginable. I feel very very bad for you, and i can’t understand why people can’t really see your pain. Makes me want to cry. i would probably say that to you if we were both in group, and if i could get my mouth open. and i would say it in as kind a voice as possible. i am just storing this up as a good line, in case i ever get back to group.Maybe i need to say it to myself. I obviously need to shut my fucking trap and go to bed.
Otto – at least you had music what you said about music being your first language is very cool. “Music therapy” makes all the sense in the world I would imagine for you. ‘re-living’ pleasure makes a lot more sense than ‘re-living’ pain at least as an ‘opening’ we couldn’t or wouldn’t ‘live’ pain originally so why could we or would we ‘re-live’ it. We might ‘try’ or we might ‘want’ to not quite the same thing. Anyway I better shut up as this almost for sure will get me ‘quoted back’ which might be some hateful/demented from of ‘re-living’ it’s certainly not living lol like Monty Python’s parrot all the signs are that it is dead. Anyway Otto to keep to more wholesome subjects there is a Stones song that I don’t think is so well known but one that grabbed me very hard at the time and even now I play it again I do find myself crying a little. To me it’s a great ‘break up’ song I think Mick Jagger felt pain at times maybe also because it seemed he never denied himself pleasure. I put on the words only so there is not so much distraction of Mick prancing around etc\\
Otto:
I’m not into music nearly as much as I used to be, but…I do have one of those infamous Primal feeling movies to suggest.
Reading your posts somehow reminded me to buy a DVD/Blu-Ray of John Belushi’s final film Continental Divide.
Yes, it’s a very old 1980’s film that’s campy and corny in some respects, but I remember watching it on the big screen as a kid and marveling at the beautiful, relaxing romantic scenery. Steven Spielberg spun his magic in this film and made me feel like I was actually in Colorado/Wyoming even though it was just a film. The film even brought up feelings for me as a kid long before I had even heard of the Primal ideas. I wish Margaret could see this so she could take her mind off her worries about her mother for just a couple hours and to relax, but anyway I thought it was a good film to slow down to…
I just heard on the News that Trump said he wanted to be ‘neutral’ in the Israeli/Palestinian question. This does NOT bode well for him, the last politician I really liked was Howard Dean (2004) and he said he wanted to be ‘even handed’ in the Middle East. Things did NOT go well for him after that statement and even though his wife was Jewish it was not enough to ‘save’ him. Within a few weeks he had gone up in flames.
It’s interesting now what will happen but you can be sure of this saying things like that does or will not help Trump get elected. Some dark (and rich) \forces will move against him. A lot ‘richer’ than he is. The only thing in his favor is his 2 main opponents are so terrible still I imagine it will be downhill for Trump from now on. We are after all electing a “President for Israel” not a president for the US. Let’s see what happens but my prediction is Trump is a goner…………..unless the actual forces of ‘patriotism’ in the US can pull something together. I think it is sadly too late for anything like that.
> Phil,
> I am glad that being so straightforward at that moment did help you and Juana to keep the family together.
> M
> Otto,
> we can all but do as much as we can.
> and this must be the son you went to pick up from the AA meeting some days ago, with the 40 minutes walk to the car.
> so thngs seem to be on the right track and you do give him support now, don’t you?
> sounds like you can’t be a complete asshole after all, smiley, and thanks for what you said.
> M
> Otto,
> I don’t have anything with other people’s babies either, I find them prettty boring and am not keen on the saliva and other body excrements they produce. am not even keen on ‘that lovely baby smell’, and I know other women that are the same.
> now it would probably be completely different if it was my own kiddo, of course, but other babies, and even worse, baby pictures, no thanks!
> when they get a few years older they can be cute, occcasionally, some of them more than others.
> but not always and certainly not all of them all the time!
> again, would be another matter if one’s own product, I guess the natural thing then is to be looking out always for positives one can relate to oneself, smiley. and then the identifying must be kind of more natural in most cases..
> but then again, irritation and rejection seems to be pretty common there too even in so called ‘normal’ families at times.
> so point being don’t be too hard on yourself for not desiring with all your heart to look at baby pictures on the I phone!
> M
> something reminds me here of a mean old dog attacking his half chewed up food tray over and over and over again out of frustration and lack of something better to do..
> Guru,
> nice of you to think of me but rest assured, I am not worrying about my mom all hours of the day, can put my mind on other things as well and have fun..
> M
Last survivor of Nazi death camp Treblinka dies in Israel.
“After the war Willenberg moved to Israel and became a surveyor for the Housing Ministry. Later in life, he took up sculpting to describe his experiences. His bronze statues depicted Jews standing on a train platform, a father removing his son’s shoes before entering the gas chambers, a young girl having her head shaved, and prisoners removing bodies.” This can’t be true. People are not wild animals. People could not do the stuff in this article to other people. Oh yes I bet they can. And continue to do. People. What would the world do without us? I myself am a violent asshole.
This is just a placeholder note…
I don’t want to place too much meaning on this insight, but I suddenly realized just now that Blair Brown in the Continental Divide movie I presented this morning seems to be the female version of the Brawny paper towel man I talked about some weeks ago. My eyes sparkled with amusement at this connection.
USG, thanks for the movie clip. Spoiler alert, negative stuff coming out of me now. Ok, I am most interested in the girl in the movie and not the scenery. I used to go to Trabuco Canyon with my brother and his friend and smoke dope. Then the beauty of the forest became very apparent to me. I was in the Navy in 1973 and went to Florida for training. I was enthralled at the beautiful trees on the Navy base, where we smoked dope. These days, my wife and I go to Franklin Canyon to see the turtles and ducks in the pond and walk the dog. We saw a turtle clawing his way up a branch so he could soak up the sun. We used to drive home and argue most of the time, but my wife says she is getting calmer for some reason. She is not a psychotic bitch like she could easily become during our first 38 years together. Now she just argues with everything I say. We used to take our kids with us to Franklin Canyon, and one time we went on a picnic where the guide provided us food from the Santa Monica mountains plants and trees.. We also had a lovely Easter picnic there with some primal people, whose groups we were in with a former PI therapist, when we first moved up to LA. We moved to LA because my wife was not getting along with her mother, who helped her at night with the kids, while I worked the night shift so I could take care of the kids during the day, and we moved also so that I could make Primal friends, to better my very limited therapy, but that did not really ever happen. We also went to a trip to the Sequoias with those people, with the kids and the tents and the big trees that were beautiful and amazing. All those people disappeared from our lives when we could no longer afford therapy because my wife was getting laid off and thus had a chance to do some free Waldorf teacher training and the kids could go to the Waldorf school for free So my dream of getting sane with Primal Therapy kind of went into a nosedive for many years. Half the time we used to take our young kids for little hikes in the strange rocky formations near Sylmar (which are now off-limits because of the lead and radiation from the former Rocketdyne facility). We would throw the dogs in the trunk of our Rabbit, I have no idea how we fit 4 dogs in there, and when we got there, we walked up the road to the rocks, all of us. Everything kind of fell apart after that, the kids grandmother died and none of us knew how to grieve, we could not afford the tuition at a private school, so my oldest son went to public school and got picked upon, and we could not solve that shit, which ended up with many years of misery and drug addiction. All 4 dogs, I had to put to sleep when their time came, and I have only grieved a little about that. We moved to Lake Arrowhead because my wife was tired of living in a rented duplex that had no outside walls. She wanted to live in beauty and I got caught up in it, and since I had fun every time we used to visit my cousins in the mountains when we were kids, we moved to the mountains, which was the absolute worst decision of my life. I basically went to work Monday thru Friday, and a lot of times Saturday, since my wife was not working, and sleep at night either on my desk at work or my brother’s couch or in an old Ford truck he sold me, and then went home on the weekends. My youngest son was glad to see me, and then went back to playing video games for the next 10 hours. He did not go to school up there since the mountain kids made fun of his shoes his first day in school and he refused to go back. My oldest son was off doing drugs. I thought the mountains were still beautiful at that time and we got the little dachshund that I just put to sleep last July. Anyway I am tired of talking about this. Obviously my gross stupidity and negligence has caused most of the misery in my life, whatever, it remains that there has been too much misery in my life. We got a beautiful tall old pine tree in our backyard that our neighbors wanted the landlord to chop down, and I begged the landlord to not do that, so he didn’t. Every year for the past 8 years, a mockingbird couple lays eggs and tries to raise their chicks, but I don’t think they ever survive. Some hawks moved in to another big tree a few years back and terrorized the neighborhood clutching screaming animals as it flew back to feed it’s baby chicks. The people who wanted the tree cut down, I think they lied about wanting it cut down so they could get a satellite dish. I finally figured out that if the tree or any of its branches ever came down, as such things happen in dry windy weather, all of us would be without a home. Today at work I helped one of my favorite customers because labels had gotten stuck in her printer. She is always super nice to me, probably just so I will always come the minute she calls. And I do go as fast as I can. She is not super attractive but I always end up thinking how nice it would be to fuck her. She is a research pharmacist and so somewhere in her work, even if she is not doing the actually physicalresearch, there are hundreds of rats, mice, dogs, or cats who are being overdosed with new drugs to see how much drugs they can take before they die in misery. But still, I would like to fuck her.Anyway,, the beauty of the forest has escaped me for a long time now. USG, thanks for the movie clip! Ha ha ha! Margaret, you probably go to the forest and you smell the trees and flowers so much better than the rest of us, and hear the chirping birds so much better than us, and feel the sun and wind so much better than us. Or not. Sorry if I am being a dumbass. I don’t have too much to lose.
> Otto,
> I can completely relate to enjoying the beauty of trees.
> as a matter of fact I’d still like to go and meet?see the sequoia trees if possible.
> but nothing beats the joy of looking at a beautiful tree or another part of nature. I miss that very much, and sadly enough the smell and feeling does not make up for it at all, even though I try to focus on the pleasure of hearing the birdies etc.
> I know far too well what iI miss out on..
> one consolation is I deeply enjoyed it while I could still see so have a lot of fine memories to fall back on and occasionally have nice dreams about landscapes.
> I still like to go out in nature but the accompanying pain of not being able to see it properly is always a part of it.
> M
> Otto,
> despite the fact the commuting to your job turned out to be problematic, your motives to move to the mountains sounded fine, you wanted a healthy and beautiful place to live for you and your family, a place you had nice memories of.
> M
Otto, I can relate to this as I did something similar moving upstate from NYC and giving myself a long commute. I worked evenings and came home every night but I left that job when my kids got to school age otherwise I’d hardly ever see them. But there aren’t many jobs around here and that’s been problematic ever since. I got tired of living in the city and thought it wasn’t a good place to raise kids.
Phil
Margaret, bummer.
Could you please rub my shoulder, it is killing me. ha
You know what, I don’t like Republicans too much, or at all. Dems not too much either. Especially Hillary. I don’t know if Trump is just posturing or what. I think Barrack actually created more war by pushing the Arab spring thing. But if we ever elect another Texan, like Lyndon Johnson, or the Bushes, we are up shit’s creek. Texans like to fight, more than other people. They act like a bunch of Apaches, and that is denigrading the good Apache name. Texans can be all sweet and charming, but underneath…Yes i know Bushes came from back East, but they had to fit in, in Texas. If you, as a people, like executing black people in the 21st century, you just might be fucked up.
Otto, My friend in high and I liked Lady Bird Johnson. We’d go around imitating her saying in our fake southern accents: “Plant a tree a bush or a shrub, and beautify America.” Those southern women knew how to put up with a lot.
Meant to say friend in high school, sorry.(getting late.)
S
Patrick, why that song grabbed you hard at the time? Did it have something to do with hoarding potatoes? (sorry, i couldn’t resist. my last assholish moment of the day). No, I would really like to know, if you feel like saying.
The Rolling Stones – Almost Hear You Sigh – OFFICIAL PROMO youtube. Not too much prancing. Tasteful prancing. Like he was hoarding his prancing. I wonder who was he talking to?
Patrick, that was very interesting and poignant what you wrote about President Kennedy (feb 14). Transistor radio and mom. Sweet.
I don’t think Paul was replaced. Penny Lane, thanks for reminding me about that one. It is giving me a chill up the spine for some reason. And the fireman rushes in, from the pouring rain, very strange. Are you saying this is a Paul song, and not a John song?
Otto – you are a pretty funny guy. About ‘hoarding potatoes’ we did that actually but ‘hoarding’ did not have a bad connotation. We would dig the potatoes in say late Oct early Nov and bag them and then put them all in a ‘dark room’ spilled out in one huge pile. It was literally a ‘dark room’ in the it had no windows and we always if we went in there left as soon as we could and closed the door behind us. It was understood any light was bad for the potatoes and in my mind wrongly or rightly I thought that’s why the potatoes went ‘bad’ or were no longer any good was too much light. They would get a kind of greenish color and start to sprout around May of the next year
There then was a period of about a month where we had NO POTATOES! which we felt as a kind of disaster.The ‘new’ potatoes would already be in the ground but not yet grown up enough to eat. Anyway for that month my Mom would make ‘salads’ for us instead of our ‘dinner’. We hated that but we did not hate her for it we knew she was doing her best. Around that time also vegetables were few and far between so my Mom would pretend nettles were vegetables and we tried to eat them and we even had ‘nettle soup’ Anyway there was always that month between the old and new potatoes ………well it was sort of like our own version of Ramadan or something a month’s fasting or if not fasting for us ‘no potatoes’ which amounted to fasting the way we felt about it
Just thinking about it now……….it’s interesting the ‘potato famine’ was deep in the Irish memory and our greatest disaster and failure as a people and yet we were still hooked on the virtues of potatoes almost to the exclusion of everything else. Even though the potato failed us we did not ‘blame’ it we loved it all the more almost because it ‘failed’ us..You can see here that sort of Irish love of ‘failure’ to fail is noble in a corrupted world. Failure is beautiful and the most moral response to corruption and lies. Maybe that’s why I considered myself a ‘failure’ in PT and this goes well beyond anything an English PR man might say who seems to be in love with ‘succeeding’ or ‘winning’ The British Empire usually DID ‘win’ of course and we always ‘lost. Speaking about the love of potatoes there was an Irish ‘saying’ and this is translating it from the Gaelic which loses a lot of the connotations anyway this is in English
Potatoes for breakfast
Potatoes for lunch
Potatoes for supper
And if you rose in the middle of the night
They would give you potatoes
I was I thought going to write about the Beatles and Stones but now it seems almost ‘sacrilegious’ potatoes represent the ‘old’ ways the Beatles etc very much the ‘new’ ways. Which I gravitated to very much I was tired and ashamed of all our ‘old’ ways. What did I know? Not much just an animal trying to escape, escape the prison I felt myself in but I never did really make my escape.
We had another saying growing up “You can take the man out of the bog, but you can never take the bog out of the man” Much as I tried bits of the ‘bog’ always seem to cling to me
Quote:- “Maybe that’s why I considered myself a ‘failure’ in PT
Mmmmmm Now there’s a thought!!!!!! The one ‘great’ success you did achieved …Gentle Giant … you then had to turn into a …. failure?????.
Is that what you mean by failure????
Just for my record:- life is not about winning or losing … just experiencing!
Jack
Do you take your false teeth out when you suck dick? Just wondering…………….
Also are your false teeth out when you talk shit? Which is about all you do here……………..scoundrel!!…………….nobody here has the gumption (play on words gums and false teeth get it lol ) to tell you to shut your trap. Of course a bunch of primallers who have been discouraged so much by their past AND their ‘ideology’ are not up to much…………..you are a mockery of anything to do with ‘feelings’ but then you learned from the best the greatest ‘mock therapist’ ever Art-hoor Jaws-ov to kind of channel James Joyce in relation to Sick-mind Fraud. Sorry that’s the best pun I could come up with.
At least “Jaws” had a good set of teeth. You ‘not so much’ not so much of anything good. Do you tell Jim to “do primal therapy before something terrible happens to him” do you tell him ‘therapy’ did not fail him he failed therapy…………….do you do you do you you scoundrel. After all he has the fount of wisdom right there why don’t you ‘give’ it to him and leave me the fuck alone you have already taken quite enough from me. Practice what you preach……………pervert! You KNOW I don’t appreciate being ‘quoted’ by you and yet that seems to be your REASON for doing it. What a ‘example’ of some kind of self realized person. More ‘proof’ if any were needed the even the ‘successes’ of primal are ghastly failures. I wear it as a badge of honor to ‘fail’ in that arena. Phil already tried to suggest to you your ‘quoting’ is devilish and not designed to achieve anything good. But to the Devil all pleas mean nothing. You are a Devil put your teeth in before you talk any more shit to me……………
Quote:- “Sorry that’s the best pun I could come up with.”
Not good enough for someone that still has his teeth IMO … but then what is MY OPINION worth anyway?????
Another quote “why don’t you ‘give’ it to him and leave me the fuck alone ”
Silly question, but I will answer it; even though by now you should know the answer to the question before asking it. You are the one guy still writing here, that gives me a lot of fun to respond to .. and it’s so easy.
Jack
It occurs to me now maybe one reason I do not like what I see as all this “Jewish whining” it’s like they fought back and also constantly memorialize their suffering we sort of just took it all in absorbed it all and almost dissapeared as a race. Being ‘failures’ was sort of the only option or the option we took. There was a song by Bob Seeger “Beautiful Loser” and Leonard Cohen wrote a book called “Beautiful Losers” I did not read it but the title kind of struck me. There was another saying Q.”Why did God invent whiskey?” A.”So the Irish would not take over the world” There is something in that the sense of a great waste of potential we felt we were that ‘good’ we could maybe take over the world and we sort of did for a while with our ‘writers’ (so any ‘writing’ I might do comes from a long and great tradition) but the reality was well………whiskey.
potatoes are one of my favorite foods. diabetic that i am, i am not suppposed to eat them, but..I MUST ! anyway, .didnt the romans and angles and saxons and others try to holocaust the irish in their own wicked ways? as monkey men have done throughout the millenia of our monkey men existence… anyway, i just watched alien resurrection and the last scene where sigourney weaver and winona ryder are about to land on earth and it looks beautiful to them and the music is glorious, that gave me chills and almost made me feel the beauty of our poor battered planet. goodnight. got to go suffer all day at work again tomorrow. i will have to read the stuff above in more detail tomorrow night.
Gretchen – I wish you even use 1/2 the ‘diligence’ you used to try to shut down any mention of Dr Kollerstrom and apply it to the dribbling sore on here the dribbling sore that does not ‘heal’ that gives a very bad name to primal therapy if one of it’s most notorious adherents cannot seem to help himself………… Otherwise known as the Faerie Queen. And it would be so easy for you when a ‘therapist’ addresses him all his critical faculties goes out the window and he becomes a little boy just anxious to please………….. meanwhile he is a Demon of ‘criticism’ about anything I might say……………a ‘schizoid’ condition I suppose you could say (I thought Janov said that could be ‘cured’ apparently not in this case) schizoid like the say spent cruising the streets teeth in or out he doesn’t say but at night declaiming about the virtues and uniqueness of primal therapy teeth now definitely in……………….
Quote:- “Gretchen – I wish you even use 1/2 the ‘diligence’ you used to try to shut down any mention of Dr Kollerstrom and apply it to the dribbling sore on here the dribbling sore that does not ‘heal’ that gives a very bad name to primal therapy if one of it’s most notorious adherents cannot seem to help himself………… Otherwise known as the Faerie Queen.”
When all your blabber is unable to get at me … now you sound desperate to get Gretchen to do it for you. In the past you’ve asked others do do it for you. YOU’VE FAILED ON ANOTHER COUNT: (seemingly), cause by the sound of you it, it’s hurting you so badly. It appears that you have every right to hurt others BUT ‘oh no!!!!’ please don’t hurt poor (pathetic) Patrick; presumably because you are the patron saint of Eire-land. I wonder if you could get just one other Irishman to back-you-up.
Also, seemingly, you even know how the therapist should be operating. Poor poor Patrick … the pain must be so, So, SO unbearable. SUGGESTION!!!!!, When you see a comment from me starting with “Quote” … delete it. That could give you SOME peace of mind … yeah!!!!
Jack
…………..and I don’t mean only Gretchen just about anyone here who might take on a ‘leadership’ position since it is not applied from the top…………….but sadly it seems PT ‘trains’ people mostly for ‘follower-ship’ positions not leadership………..Janov always has been a ‘dictator’ in spite of his ‘democratic’ window dressing which never allowed his ‘followers’ to ever be anything but followers or in more extreme cases ‘swallowers’ as in the case above………….
> David Irving had planned a lecture here in a hotel in Antwerp yesterday.
> there were no Belgian listeners, only 5 (!) Dutch followers showed up, and the ‘lecture’ was canceled.
> the hotel management had until then not had an idea what the spirit of the lecture was about, and there were many more people outside of the hotel protesting than the audience of 5 who had to go home and can have another try in Den Haag soon.
> M
Margaret – it’s interesting that there were many ‘protesters’ about the ‘thought police’ in that matter never rest and David Irving has has a long and rough road to hoe with these maniacs following him everywhere. No wonder he might look a bit ‘paranoid’ he has plenty reason to be he has a family and lots of things to lose. It has been shown over and over again they are prepared to hurt and do great harm if their ‘religion’ is doubted in any way. I find your attitude distasteful not that it is really your fault you have not read any of his books either and you won’t and most of these morons probably have not either
You should know Margaret majority rule means nothing though you do seem to cling to ‘majorities’ and it is sad for Europe if only 5 people show up I agree it is very sad. But I think/feel things are changing Europe is being so fucked up by these Zionist wars spreading refugees all over now Europe itself seems to be in great danger and actually that seems also be a Zionist plan anyway clear out the Middle East to create the ‘Greater Israel” and in the process totally fuck Europe ruin any kind of national identity they still have left turn them into so mongrolized balkanized place and that it happening and rather quickly. Bye Bye Italy, Germany France Sweden Holland etc etc……………you have had your day the glories and art and science of Europe are no more let it become a place of chaos and incoherence and eventually bow to Israel and the Jews………….this is happening………..
SOME people are waking up but so far a small minority but I was encouraged by this two relatively ‘young’ Europeans and very smart and good guys imo start to re-think a lot of this. It is hopefully not only left to eccentric and unusual English but some of the Europeans have had these lies and exaggerations stuffed in their faces for so long and now they are literally being stuffed with ‘refugees’ they start to awaken. It is interesting one of these guys is Swedish and the other Danish 2 of the few European countries that do NOT have ‘holocaust laws’ No Germans a German would be in jail for what these guys are saying. And a Belgian maybe too so Margaret just keep thinking what you have been told what you HAVE to think…………….so you can revel in that ‘freedom’. I can see now why the Zionists want to make these ‘laws’ all over the EU if that happens bye bye free thought bye bye most everything…………..welcome to the new slave state. I guess I don’t really expect anyone to listen to this though I think it would ‘profit’ them greatly but whatever I am too much a coward to put myself in anything like the position David Irving has put himself in (poor guy – feel bad for him)
> Jack,
> thinking of you and Jim today, hoping for the best.
> M
Margaret: Thanks, and we too are hoping for the best I thought the mention of David Irving’s lecture in Antwerp was very telling.
Jack
> Jack,
> there was also a little interview with him, he was a very nervous man, stuttering to the point of almost not being able to say what he wanted to say, shifty eyes shooting here and there, well, not a person to inspire trust really.
> it made no sense what he said either, ‘those people have not read my (30) books, if they would have they would know they and me say the same’
> weird logic, how does he know they have not read his stuff and then how would he know they would be of the same opinion?
> looked fairly crazy to me..
> M
Leonard Cohen’s Dear Heather is a song that I like to listen to now and then. At first, it sounded to me like his wife or girlfriend had died of a horrible disease, which I related to for some reason. I have to work overtime tomorrow with some jackass that I can’t stand. Oh well need the cash.
i guess I meant the song There for you on the Dear Heather album. a little bit sad. maybe a breakup song, not sure.
This one doesn’t really have lyrics, but some nice photographs of love and pain.
Leonard Cohen – There For You (Lyrics)
For example the first frame is the title, black and white, and the text starts at the bottom and streams to the top of the frame. I don’t know how you would describe the font but it is white against the black background, and there are thin black lines with the same shape of the letters, in the middle of the letters. “Leonard Cohen” “There for you”. All these shots are black and white. So the 2nd frame is a young woman with a poneytail on the left and a young man on the right, and we see their silhouettes against the sky. They are facing each other, each holding a glass of wine, they are touching/toasting each other’s glasses. Not sure what the 2nd frame is. 3rd is bottom half of man on the left and bottom half of woman on the right, and their hands are headed towards touching the other hand like about to hold hands, with a little streaming of the picture upward. Next is the bottom half of a man in the foreground standing on railroad tracks and a woman way down the tracks going away from him. Very contrasty black and white, clouds in the sky. Man is facing to the right of the screen with his hand in his pocket, seeing him from the side, we don’t know if he has turned his head to look at her going down the track, since we are only seeing the bottom half of him, and the streaming of the picture brings us to where we can see the sneakers he is wearing. Next one, is a guy on the street, looks like nighttime, blurry apartment building and a few cars in the background. The whole picture is very dark and he is facing to the left of the screen and it appears that he has his back against a wall, directly on the right edge of the picture, and he is wearing a loosened tie and his head is tilted upward, and his expression looks like some kind of anguish. Next one is. Wait, Z came in room and wanted me to hug her. She has not wanted to be hugged in quite a while, and I did not want to do it, but I pushed myself up out this ridiculous low chair and rose my always-aching, tired, decrepit body up to hold her for 40 seconds. She has not asked to be held for quite some time, or maybe she has and I shied away from it. For some reason, she is trying to be close to me tonight. Kid is here as usual, worried about graduating and getting a job, his professor is neglecting to read all his thesis material so he can graduate in May, so he is worried about that too. I would fuck my wife, not sure why the hell she has stopped wanting sex, although she mentions it from time to time. She has always been the aggressor from the first time, and I am not much of an aggressor anymore, or ever. She used to come in to my room completely naked and stand there with a big smile on her face, and I knew what she wanted, but she stopped doing that for a while now. Anyway, the next picture is very similar to the railroad track picture, only the woman has an umbrella as she is walking away down a path, and actually I just noticed that the train is on the left, and the guy is facing her departing self. Dreary weather shot.Obviously theses pictures are stylistic and of young men and women, attractive I guess, moody. Now a shot from above of people walking down a street, blurry kind of, like the exposure was long enough to make the action blurry. (As Cohen is singing “I walk the streets like I used to do “, with some ethereal women background singers too. I am not going to describe all of them now, getting ready for bed. Ok couple, man and woman sitting on the grass at the park, backs to us, kissing, he has his hand around her waist and resting on her left buttock and she is holding balloons for some reason. Then man and woman standing at shoreline under embrella and leaning into each other and kissing, semi-silouette. Then man with back to us holding woman facing us. She is up in the air somehow and giddy, I don’t know if she jumped up on him or is he lifting her. More kissing picks, a woman smoking, a man sitting down dark picture atr shoreline, back to us, head down. Now a woman in foreground as the man is walking away from her. Another one like that and woman is not looking at him walking away, but she has her hands and arms holding her head and beautiful hair and my intrepretatation is, anguish, or what the fuck is what she is thinking.i am going to split this up because I don’t know how much you can put into a single post.
Ok now a very close closeup of a face, probably a woman, or a man with very long eyelashes, with a big tear streaming out of her eye down her face. Now a blurry party scene, not sure if it is women only. Now a woman with her back to the wall and a man in the background and he is looking at her and it also looks like he is headed away from her. Neither appear happy.Here’s my favorite. Woman on bed, facing us, bare legs (little black dress?) , cant see her face, head in hands, kind of scrunched over, appears to be crying. Well more of the same, hugging etc. Last one is closeup of presumably man and woman lovers hands, he is on one side of iron gate and she on the other, his hand on top of hers. And a heart fadeout….
> Otto,
> thanks for all these descriptions of the pictures.
> they all seem to have similar kinds of longing, loneliness, and a set of feelings I don’t want to put words on as to not reduce their content..
> it seems to fit in so well Z came in asking for the hug and I am very glad you were able to respond.
> I guess it makes sense as to words I was looking for regarding the pictures, they are not entirely hopeless.
> I am very touched by all of this, thanks Otto.
> M
> as a change of mind from studying, last few days before exam, I did a very satisfying ‘pruning’ job. I had heard hortensia’s need to be cut down in spring to the point just above their lowest double sprouts. first I thought of waiting for my brother to do it, first time I have hortensias from last year, but then I decided to give it try feeling my way around.
> it went really well and that was a pleasure, I think sometimes feeling is easier than trying to see stuff like that. gently easing my way up over the vrious stems until finding these little tender sprouts, was a very nice thing to do, specially cutting off the part above it then to give it room to breathe and grow and receive the sunlight.
> so now have two tidy pruned hortensias, one red and one blue, was supervised by the two cats approving and probably thinking about exploring the possibilities of optional litterbox or all the loose pieces they tend to fish out of the containers, like the wooden shreds covering the earth to keep it moist, I find them everywhere in the house and at first had a hard time thinking of what they were…
> also they fish out paper wraps of certain infusions out of the paper waste box, also spreading them around in the other rooms. must like the smell of verbena and manzanilla, chamomile.
>
> yesterday it was also satisfying to go on my own for a coffee after the gym, choosing a spot at the bar, to feel more part of things, had a very nice cup of coffee and then ordered my taxi, feeling good about having overcome shyness to do this in a strange place with my visual handicap.
> people are often so awkward when they notice, but not always, and a big part in overcoming it is my own behaviour in opening the communication if possible.
> had a nice chat with the taxi driver, a man from Croatia, on the way home, talking about my cats and his golden retriever and young female cat that gets along very well with the dog.
> his wife’s 18 year old cat got ill last year and she was devastated, so he brought in the newcomer who now is part of the family.
>
> I like interactions like this, little things that make life more sunny, and seem to open up a sense of options for pleasant possibilities instead of feelings of gloom and doom..
> now off to mom, sigh, but well, she deserves our care.
> and today the sun is shining here, although it still is cold..
> M
……………have not looked at the blog since Tuesday disgusted with myself and disgusted in general…………..I ‘meditated’ on this …………being poked………………..lying in my crib/cage/prison even with ‘bars’ on it not feeling good at all massive unease unfocused anxiety one big thing NO FACES never see anyone much at all, also never PICKED UP just let to lay there by myself and on myself only me for ‘company’ not afraid to die exactly but at moments more like wish to die but don’t think that will happen………..being ‘fed’ somehow feels like there is some kind of gross care operation going on where I will not be left to die almost like forced feeding though it would look bad if I died and well maybe they care that much enough to keep me around so it’s more massive indifference than hostility I cannot say I feel hostility maybe benign neglect not that there is much that feels benign about it…………………but now what’s this being ‘poked’ someone/something is prodding me with it feels like a sharp stick and it is happening more and more sort of a constant and low level and kind of mockingly hostile force but I never see ‘his’ FACE either he is distant but close enough to keep me in a deep state of anxiety sometimes ‘he’ feels closer other times further away but no matter he does has a longer stick he seems to like to do it from a distance he does not want to dirty his hands with me anyway a new factor and not a good one a Devil on the loose and focus on me………..why does he do it well actually he has told me he ENJOYS that how weird to ‘enjoy’ another person’s suffering that’s called a sadist he either enjoys doing it or maybe even more enjoys my reaction/suffering/unease what’s the diff either one is pretty ‘sick’…………I was being swamped by ‘indifference’ but now I have to deal with a new factor someone who wants to hurt me but on a low level enough to KEEP ME AROUND for his ‘amusement’…………..well now I had REALLY find a new place to be……………
> I am not used to this kind of silence on the blog anymore, hm, am studying a large part of these days and mis the welcome pling of arriving mail to give me a good excuse for a momentary break.
> of course I also wonder how everyone is doing, smiley.
> specially Jack, it is worrying you have posted no news yet.
> M
> ps of course by the time this gets pasted on the blog it might already be in full action again.
Margaret: I was hoping by now to post some news, but I have nothing definite. Jim went for this new procedure and was anesthetized and we picked him up and he was not able to talk but I read the report and it seems the procedure was a total failure. Then yesterday he was in so much pain we took him back to the emergency room where they have kept him in over night and so I am hoping they will phone me or that he will, and let me know the status and if he can come out today.
All I am able to do is cry feeling for the the worst and desperately hope for the best. I must have shed buckets of tears. But my crying upsets him so I cannot do it in his presence and he’s so, so private he does not like me to see him being put into a wheel chair and taken into the emergency room and waves me to leave. That hurts even more so I do leave and then cry about that.
So I am left with my tears and crying again now thinking of it all. It’s an interminable waiting game. The only consolation, if it is one, is that I am able to cry my feelings.
I will keep the blog informed, but know that my Jimbo does not even like me writing to the blog about it all. A sort of double bind. I inadvertently told him you, Margaret, was thinking of us and he got angry about that. So for now, that’s it and will keep everyone informed.
Jack
Sorry to hear all that is going on for both of you Jack. It is 1 of those horrible times when you can only live moment to moment – each one of you doing what feels most comfortable or familiar to cope…
Hope you keep in touch here.
L
> Jack,
> sounds painful.
> maybe it helps if you tell Jim you only need to talk about your own feelings and do respect his privacy in the meantime.
> no need to give us any details about him.
> it sounds like that is really an important issue for him.
> hang in there, M
Margaret: Yes, I agree that I just have to talk about me and my re-actions to what is taking place with him and I have tried not to go into details about his condition. He doesn’t quite see the difference, and trying to explain can be cause for even more angst on his part, since he sees it as me, as he puts it, ‘going round the houses’, whereas I see it as him not wanting to know how I see things. He does care about me and shows it in many others ways and knows I care about him.
I do understand why he reacts this way, since he has, over the years, told me about his childhood, As I have stated in the past, I need to only have my feelings with people who know the process. for which this blog is great.
Meantime, they have not been able to place him in a bed and he has to be there for at least another 48 hours. He’s on a gurney in a holding place, but has been given pain medication. But that also means I cannot go to visit him yet.
Will keep you all informed of how things are for me meantime. Mark my nephew and Bernadette are being a great help and that is what I mean when I say we.
Jack
I’m sad that you and Jim have to go through this, Jack. Good that you have support there with you.
Larry: Thanks,
Jack
The past week I was on Vancouver Island. It was my biennial pilgrimage to the beach where Noreen’s ashes rest. We made three trips there together, each two years apart and in February during the full moon. On the second trip she was very ill, in pain, having trouble breathing, and always tired. We didn’t know yet what was wrong, but she wanted to be there for a short holiday on that beach again. On the third trip there together, I left her there. She was ashes. That third trip is an aspect of my life experience that is too grotesque for me to fully absorb yet.
While traveling there last week and while there my polymyalgia ramped up in intensity. I ached more and in more muscle groups and joints. I was tired. I have a lot of trouble breathing. My rheumatologist is running some tests to determine whether it is something else, more serious, that is undermining my health. I wonder whether my difficulty breathing is anxiety asthma. It’s been getting worse through January and February. I felt weak. Still, twice a day I made myself get up and walk the mile long beach and back, plodding along through my aches, tiredness, and shortness of breath, sometimes carrying my heavy cameras and tripod, one morning on the beach at 5 am in sub-zero temperatures to photograph the moon set on the ocean.
Because I felt ill and tired, all I could think about was how she must have felt on her last trip there alive, ill, exhausted, frightened probably, and a month later we found out she was dying. The memories surging in felt so awful that I wanted to cancel my trip. I felt I never wanted to do this trip again ever. At least I had photography for a distraction, something that I enjoy and that I pushed myself forward to do, something that distracted me for a while each day from my misery.
One afternoon in my suite, I realized I can’t let this misery win. I don’t want to hate coming to the resting place of Noreen’s ashes and never visit here again. I cracked, I broke, I fell apart. I cried the anguish of how her life was too short, how our time together was brutishly cut short, how life can take a grotesque turn.
Two more crying spells happened while I was there, each spaced a couple of days apart. After each I felt better, better able to pick myself up and plod on and enjoy the visit a little more, realizing and accepting a little more deeply, more profoundly, that I am on my own now, and anything can happen, good or bad, and all I can do is make the best of what comes my way.
On my last day on the island I noticed with grateful relief that the intensity of my polymyalgia symptoms had abated, and my breathing was easier.
I arrived home on Friday. The pain continues to be at a less intense, less incapacitating level, my breathing improved from what it had been for almost two months. On Saturday, feeling weak, tired, achy and short of breath I made myself go to a West Coast Swing dance workshop, thinking I would not stay long. I lasted from 1-4:30 pm. It was so much fun. It is becoming easier and easier for me to be with and enjoy people, to enjoy dancing with the ladies. It was such a boost to my confidence.
Something has changed in me, for the better. I am more confident in my ability to take charge of my life. I can see more clearly that I must, because no one else will. I am a little less afraid of the reality of being on my own with the responsibility for me. Conversely, I feel on the threshold of a more full social life, because I can see more clearly how it happens, and I want it. I’m tired of isolation. Isolation is life sapping.
I look forward to visiting Noreen’s resting place again, two years from now. I wish I had been there a couple more days.
Larry: Wow; so moving. I can well imaging that after some deep crying, the breathing and aches are less debilitating. But as you say; life goes on. Meantime, take great care.
Jack
Larry – You really took us from and through your hell to your much deserved space of calm and rejuvenation with your trip.
So glad to hear how you can do that – feeling what you need to, and living and striving to improve the life you have now. It really is something!
I will be hoping your health and life continues to get better and better.
L
> Jack,
> it feels not right that you cannot visit him just because they don’t have a bed for him yet. you’d think it makes it all the more reason to grant him the support of at least a visit of someone that cares about him.
> wish you the best, M
Update: My Jimbo is in an observation unit and I was able to call him and he sounded more upbeat than in recent day, but he’s not sure how long they want to keep him and so far they have not needed to operate.
However it does not sound so serious anymore, but still no definitive diagnosis, but he does not want me to visit him
Meantime I am missing him a great deal,, but feel some relief.
So thanks to you all that sent me messages.
Jack
That was not meant to be anonymous. Jack
> feel kind of low today.
> tomorrow morning have my exam of neuropsychology 2 and pharmacology.
> have studied all the material, a lot of it, several times and felt like I was getting a grip on it, but today it feels like it all tends to vanish and get mixed up.
> all those neurotransmitters, neural pathways, brain parts, functions, disorders and their respective symptoms and treatments and etiologies, all the theories and tests and studies with results of mri and tdi and meg and erp and eeg and pet and ct and all those neuroreceptors etc. etc.
> there is a lot of overlap in the neural pathways where anomalies are found, like in autism and adhd and the attention deficits caused by other disorders, well, you get it I guess, feels like one big blurr today.
> did fresh up some material today, after ending my last run through that took a week, only the summary, and today just checked some disorders with their respective neural pathways disfuntioning, and the neurotransmitters and their endless list of receptors and ways to interact.
>
> all I can tell to myself is I studied well and hard, and the rest will have to happen.
> they can make the exams relatively easy or extremely difficult, so let’s hope it is average at least..
> the weather is awful and I have a headache, maybe catching the flu, it seems to be all around these days.
> don’t want to call my mom today, and do want to call her, but it might be another stress factor.
>
> just somewhat gloomy in other words..
> if exam goes well will hopefully feel good for a little while..
> plan to order three courses at once tomorrow, so I can shift a bit and work on all of them, Literature study, Philosophy and Evolutionary psychology probably, those seem to be all different enough from each other.
>
> so fed up with bad weather and cold and wind and freezing rain..
> workers still in the house so often doors open and draft coming in making it all almost threatening.
> cold seems to trigger some old fear somehow, hate it, hate draft, hate airco, hate cold rooms and places unless I can do a good sporty activity to stay warm..
> don’t know what I want to say and need, just feel lonely and , well, lonely..
> M
> maybe kind of hopeless too and scared
Hang in there Kiddo. Who knew there was so much science to psychology. Sounds like you’ve done the studying. Hope you have a good night’s rest, Margaret. Hi to your kitties. Spring’s a coming; fear not. And good luck on your exam.
S
Hope you feel good about the exam you have written by now Margaret.
You studied well and deserve a nice break.
Also hope you are planning on going to the Retreat as that is a nice goal to look forward to. All the good people, fun, relaxation and oh yeah therapy 🙂
B. and I are going!! Never dreamed we could both go this year – but then again it is just so wonderful. I am already looking forward to all the people I know here being there, and can only hope Sylvia checks into it or at least meets us in town one day :), and that Daniel and Anonymous – (who may be familiar & would be there 🙂 are going too! Tom,Tom,Tom and so many others…will hope to see you soon!
L
> ha Sylvia,
> thanks, your reply really cheered me up and I am still smiling.
> when I heard the mail arrive I actually thought it might be you.
> will keep your words in mind and recall them certainly tomorrow morning if necessary!
> and yes, there is surprisingly much science nowadays in psychology, more than I had imagined, specially in this set of courses, all starting with ‘the biological basis of …’
>
> interesting stuff but boy…
>
> M
Margaret,
Good luck on your exam.
hmm. “That I don’t know if it’s you or if it’s me?” unbelievable. one line in this sweet little song had me screaming and crying as i was driving down ventura blvd to go to the park and walk the dog in the dark unbelievable that i was able to do that. unbelievable that i was able to do that in traffic.understandable that i was able to do that after screaming and crying while driving my dachshund to the vets last july to put him to sleep. understandable with all the other grief i have been in in the past 2 years, and in the past 64 years, coming to a head, and facing my death every day, and waking up from my nap every afternoon, awash in horribly painful memories of loss and grief. Is it my wife or is it me? the situation is intolerable between us, and then one of us is going to die on the other one. what the fuck is this shit, as one guy said about his dying, as relayed to me by some pi therapist long ago.
Margaret, are you studying to become a therapist?
Larry, that was brutal for both you and Noreen. I am so terribly sorry that you two went through that horrible stuff. I’m glad you are feeling better now. Your description of how Noreen must have felt is jarring, to say the least. I wish well for you. Again, sorry.
Patrick, how old do you think you were when you were in the crib as described above?
I feel bad for my dog sophie, she is pretty much alone in my room all day while I am at work, now that the other 2 dogs have moved on. wifey comes in every now and then to let her outside, but still…Patrick, I am not comparing your misery to a dog’s misery, just saying. When you are alone and neglected, you are in hell. There are dogs sitting in their backyards of the adjoining houses, and they just sit there and they get nothing much, I guess they are just there to be burglar alarms. One of them is in a backyard that is mostly concrete, no grass or trees. He barks all the time. At least he is not chained up. I think he really has nothing at all except food and water. No walks, no nothing. Patrick, please be aware that I am not comparing you or your grief to a dog and its grief. Although sometimes I think that in Mankind’s early history, that dogs taught us more how to feel than we did before we decided to include them around our monkey firepit.
No worries Otto I have been called ‘worse’ by ‘better people’ lol.Come to think of it you compared me once to your dog before last Summer when you compared by ‘yelping’ about something to your dog. Isn’t it interesting the word ‘yelp’ how close it is to ‘help’. Even the big computer operation is called “Yelp” and it is all about getting “Help” in one form or another. It’s probably more socially acceptable to ‘yelp’ than to cry out ‘Help”. I remember once when I was drowning I yelled out a kind of incoherent scream but even then in a great panic I ‘knew’ deep down the MOST effective thing would be to cry “Help” but even then I did not do it could not do it. Later I met one of the guards down there and we talked about it and he said ‘yeah we heard a scream and one guy said to the other is that the guy (me) out there on the water. It stuck me if I had yelled “Help” there would have been less/no doubt so it was have been a better idea……………………anyway glad to be here and able to write about it.
Also John Lennon got his reputation as a ‘truth teller’ aside from his primal album and songs like “Dont let me down” and earlier “Help” that was a Lennon song not a Paul or even a Faul song lol. “Don’t let me down” is one my favorite all time Lennon songs. Anyway you asked what age I was I am guessing it was the ‘situation’ for unfortunately maybe most if not all of my ‘infant-hood’ The thing is I was ‘rescued’ by the fact I was ‘farmed out’ to my grandparents from say 2 y.o. to 3.5 y.o. maybe not that long but anyway and that was a great environment by contrast. So in my case it’s like I experienced the worst but I also know the best.Which has caused a lot of confusion in my life I see two sides all the time, I love and hate most things, I change direction even if I am ‘successful’ in other ways I want to tear it all down. I suppose my attitude to ‘primal’ itself reflects that I love it and hate it too…………………..most things are like that unfortunately It’s like I go ‘back and forth’ too much nothing is ever ‘settled’. Even recently my interest in ‘history’ is a form of ‘re-thinking’ or ‘re-looking’ at things. Most people are content to let things be (“Let it be” a Faul song lol) me not……………..anyway enuff about that. It does me make me wonder sometimes too ‘what if I was not rescued’ I think yourself Otto related something similar about ‘contrasts’ I think maybe a lot of people in primal have something like that. If it was all just ‘bad’ we would not be here would have gone off to be criminals or drug addicts or whatever if it was all ‘good’ we would not be here either. We inhabit that kind of cursed ‘middle ground’ so to speak
You mention dogs parrots is another one. That article I sent that probably no one read about ‘parrot therapy’ she describes how one guy literally kept his parrot in a drawer in a closet. That is such a horrible ‘double whammy’ first off the parrot is in a ‘cage’ being away from other parrots but oh no that’s not cruel enough put it is a drawer! And that whole thing about being in a (my) crib the crib has BARS and it is ‘rectangular’ and there is not much else in there maybe a toy or two what a preparation for being in PRISON! What an excellent way to ‘prepare’ someone hey you already KNOW what this is like shroud not be too bad.That black woman writer has written about that in another way the school to prison complex and how prisons for blacks especially recalls and relives their ‘previous’ lives as slaves. Slavery in a new guise. For ‘whites’ it might be a different path maybe we could call it the ‘crib to prison’ path. Of course where one starts off is often where one ends up that always stikes me in Hospitals we are born helpless and we die helpless or needing great help so maybe enough for now comes back to the beginning of ‘yelping’ or ‘helping’ But thanks Otto I feel a more genuine feeling from you that I have felt here for a long time………………BTW I can relate to your crying or screaming in a car when I first came here I noticed most of my crying or whatever seemed to happen in a car not in group I felt ‘safer’ in a car at the same time not so safe it was quite inconvenient of course but that seemed to be part of the feeling how inconvenient it all was and actually how ‘un-safe’ as in literally maybe being in an ‘accident’ or causing one………..I remember in that context that Bruce Springsteen song “For You” ‘I came for you for you for you/but you did not feel my urgency/I came for you for you but you life was one long emergency” which maybe sums it up as a baby I had ‘urgency’ but I was living in someone else’s ’emergency’. I loved the book “The Long Emergency” which apparently according to the author we are now living through…………..a long emergency………..
This is the Beatles doing “Don’t let me down” this was the famous ‘rooftop’ concert in London which was the ONLY concert they did and can you even call that a ‘concert’ since 1966 this was ’69 or maybe ’70. Then they broke up.Otto why do you think that was? It has to do with the Paul ‘problem’ no more Beatles concerts once he was ‘gone’…………..not to hark of this little ;’theory’ but well you know……………a line in this song ‘no one ever dug me/like she dug me/she dug me good’ how intoxicating it is to have someone ‘dig’ you especially and moreover if nobody else ever did but also setting up for a fall……………
I am thinking that I do not like how Israel has conducted itself with the Palestinians. However, what do i know about what is going on over there? All I can say is, maybe it is time for feets be a’walking out of Israel. Israelis are surrounded by all those “nasty” arab hostiles, who seem to grow more hostile every day, probably because the Europeans and us wanted all that oil and non-communism.. Sounds horrible over there. Anyway, good enough time to see what my favorite arab Mia Khalifa is up to. if you know what i mean. she is not hoarding a damn thing, she is spreading the wealth freely. I do feel sorry for how she has to make a living. Her father did not want that for her. Sorry for all those girls who have to do that stuff, and i cant believe the shit that goes on in this world to women. Crazy. Well, as much as I am drawn to Mia’s beauty, I have talked myself out of it. She has a big nose, as some Arabs do, which i like, and i am always trying to remember where I saw a (probably kind) woman with a big nose in my childhood, because there is a reason why i am drawn to that. Not a pun or euphemism. Wasn’t my mother, not sure maybe my great grandjmother. Although I dont think Germans have big noses. Really, i got to shut up now.
> thanks Phil,
> just got up, early so I don’t need to hurry to get ready, but still feel not entirely well, sore muscles and headache, maybe flu starting, at least I am not really sick yet..
> hope for the best, M
Otto,
> well, I am studying, but don’t know about the second part.
> it would be nice, but I don’t count on it too much, as in any case it would be in a far far and very uncertain future…
> luckily the study itself is interesting enough.
> thanks Leslie, at the moment the thought of travelling and its hassles feels more scary than exciting. maybe I’d feel better once I have bought my tickets..
> glad you both can come!!
> M
> the exam went really well, finished the 36 questions in about 40 minutes, now of course have to wait for results..
> ordered three new courses..
> M
If Trump is so ‘bad’ how come all these Republicans are knocking themselves out to stop him. It is comical to see these guys faking whatever they are faking. On the other side I don’t consider it much better. Like Hillary might criticize the way he TALKS about Muslims or whatever………………..but she does not just ‘talk’ she seems always eager to bomb and kill them! I would take someone ‘talking bad’ about me if they do not bomb and kill me lol. As she has proven over and over again Iraq, Libya, Syria more aggressive than almost anyone else. My fear about her given her record is she very likely would start a war with Iran or at least would try and of course she would have her ‘little helpers’ always ready for another war especially if someone else is actually fighting it. That is pretty much WW3 which is actually pretty much already going on
I don’t think Trump is so ‘good’ he is un-informed for sure but the alternatives here are so bad I would vote for him if I had one I’m afraid. Maybe a way to put it he is LESS a “President for Israel” than it seems all the others on both sides are. At least what he ‘says’ again who knows what he would do or be made to do? But we pretty much know what the others will do and it’s ‘no beuno’
He says he does not see Putin as the enemy he is against all these trade deals, he does not want to wreck Social Security but above all he seems reluctant to start any more of these freaking wars in the Middle East and wreck the place completely and as a ‘bonus’ to wreck Europe with the resultant refugees. This might put him against the Israeli ‘project’ which might explain how all the ‘pundits’ Left and Right mock him and are against him. I see him as a sort of ‘throw back’ from the Devilish world we are in now controlled by Devils……………and it seems people instinctively ‘know’ that in spite of all the ‘political correctness’ spewed up most everywhere or here at least……………..
I don’t think much of Trump and don’t want him as president, but the republican voters
are choosing him. I think it’s outrageous that “establishment” republicans are trying to invalidate this choice. The republican party seems to be falling apart. There’s a disconnect between the wealthy people and corporations who donate and the average voter. Same thing with the democrats but to a lesser degree. Something really does
need to change.
Phil
Quote:- “That is pretty much WW3 which is actually pretty much already going on”
Agreed: but then war is somethinbg you seem, from your record on this blog, to want to perpertrate.
Another quote:- “I don’t think Trump is so ‘good’ …………….I would vote for him if I had one”
I take it you’d vote for him because he’d (you hope) would be “LESS a ‘President for Israel’ than it seems ……”
Now I get your drift.
Jack
> Patrick,
> so you’d feel ok about voting for someone that said he’d reinstall waterboarding and even more than that?
> seems to me a clear sign overruling all your theories, that after all are no more than that.
> he is clearly pretty crazy, and maybe that is what attracts you. crazy in a sense of so focused on himself that well, I rest my case, should not go into this really.
> just seems insane to want to vote for someone that uses wanting to reinstall torture as a way to promote himself and his ideas.
> does not seem to fit in with your genuine care for the muslims in the other parts of the world..
> but I guess logic is far away when act outs dictate..
> M
> Phil,
> maybe it is not such a bad thing the republican party needs to take a stand, or split up between their innner lines of difference.
> even a candidate of their own party said already he’d rather vote for the other side than to have Trump for president.
> and he is not the only one.
> with the democrrats it seems a healthier dynamic, Bernie saying he just wants to use his influence at the time being to get some attention for his ideas, and Hillary adjusting her campaign, which might make it easy for them to work together when one of them gets elected.
> I do not like her style too much, don’t like the sound of her voice, and admit I do not know much about her views otherwise, but she sounds somehow hard, emotionally.
> but I do think she must deserve all the votes from the black and latin community in some way or another.
> and Bernie also seems pretty sincere.
> but anyone voting for Trump to me feels like blindly following impulses without proper reflecting, just what any demagogue aims for of course.
> curious as to see what the republican party will do at the moment of truth, as they still have a big say in what will happen.
> come to think of it people voting for Trump might often be just acting out being cross, more like kids would do than responsible adults.
> Trump shits on the pope one day and then the next blows smoke up his ass, fearing to lose votes, then he says everyone should boycot Apple, but hey, he twitters the message from his I-phone, oops…
> he comes across like some immature but also potentially dangerous and very irresponsible ego-tripper.
> he would be one hell of a caricatural face of the U.S. towards the rest of the world.
> hope he gets sidetracked or blatantly loses, as he would be at least extremely embarrassing, and probably much much worse than that..
> M
Hi Margaret,
I agree with what you say here about Trump, except that I don’t think the republican party should make a large effort to invalidate the voter’s choice. That will probably backfire anyone. Clearly Trump is channeling some anger and frustration and it seems to be an important political moment here. On the republican side the primary elections are generating a large voter turnout. People who probably never vote are coming out and because of that, Trump may stand a good chance in the general elections if he gets that far. It’s going to be very interesting to see what happens.
Phil
Margaret: You sound very well informed about American politics. I;m impressed.
My take on Trump and the political issue, is that it is reminiscent of what took place in Germany and the rise of Hitler. To bring up AGAIN my thing; if we were to abolish money and all forms of exchange; then politics, governments, national borders, and all the trappings that money keeps in place, including NEUROSIS, then child rearing like with most other creatures would become loving, caring, natural, simple and uncomplicated. Even doing away with the need for psychology. But then that’s just MY thing.
Meantime, good luck with your exam results. You seem to be taking on a great deal here with your studies. that also impresses me.
Jack
Margaret – so as not to be ‘argumentative’ I would just pick on one thing here. The Pope said Trump could not be a proper Christian and want to put walls up on the Mexico border. Apparently Trump ‘tweeted’ (I hate that word) a picture of the Vatican and guess what it is totally surrounded by walls. I was there in 2005 and yes it is I think it was even called the “Walled City” so and you me I have no animus against the Pope or the Catholic Church come to that but I thought that was a fair and even telling point about what you might call ‘hypocrisy’ It’s easy to talk but ‘reality’ can be a whole different matter.Talk is cheap indeed.
I just read something in the Irish paper about how Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook) is going to work much more closely with Germany to stamp out ‘hate speech’ Apparently it’s not only the ‘holocaust’ referring to migrants or whatever in any insulting way might become ‘illegal’ or not acceptable on Facebook. So as a German you already can’t talk about quite a few things but they are ‘history’ ok whatever but now even present things things having a major impact on you. Can’t say much of anything about it or it becomes ‘hate speech’ This is such an insult to people and I think this connects with Trump also I don’t think he will be a good President but the people like him including me at times at least because he says in a plain manner what people are thinking. This to me is his ONLY ‘virtue’ really but you should know just being allowed to ‘say’ or ‘speak’ that is important. I don’t agree about water boarding or banning Muslims lots of things I don’t like but for example there is some idiot like George Will on TV for 40 years now that everyone pretends to respect and Trump just says ‘that guy is a clown or an idiot’ or whatever. People like that and sad to say what they have in Germany nowadays is more reminiscent of the worst of what the Soviet Union was especially in it’s early days. Thought crimes, speech crimes etc etc this is really a problem and one thing I believe I have learned from all of my recent reading is most everything the Germans in WW2 are accused of doing but were not actually doing WAS being done by the Soviets. Gas vans, concentration camps mass killing all of it and not even a war going on……………….and co-incidence or not the early Soviet Union was dominated by Jews. I would even go so far as to say most all of what they accused the Germans of doing was already in their own mind and actions too. Maybe they might like to ‘analyse’ that Freudian style If you want and are fine being strangled by history and such huge lies well that’s your choice. Except of course you cannot see it’s not your fault.
> Phil, well, interesting, yes, but I am not so sure that all that chanelled anger turning out into Trump for president won’t cause much bigger disasters to occur and increase the polarization worldwide.
> I would personally find it positive if a bit of common sense would make the republican parties leaders decide not to let it happen.
> if the other candidates voters still outnumber Trump’s it would still be a republican majority as a whole..
> but on the other hand, maybe if the choice would be him or Hillary some republicans would indeed change parties.
> to have only two choices is weird to my European mind, it is so black and white, no room for other colours or shades of grey.
> I’d really be disappointed in America as a whole if they choose Trump, though of course almost all my friends would not be to blame as I am as good as certain none of them would vote for Trump.
> his name always reminds me of trumping away, like an elephant’s noise, loud and a lot of air, it is definitely not a flattering name to me, has other connotations as well, other associations…
>
> and so much for the Americans bringing it onto themselves if they vote Trump, but I fear for other parts of the world and for those poor suspects that will fall in the hands of ‘investigators’ free to use whatever methods.
> as a matter of fact, is it waterboarding or waterbording?
> M
Margaret,
We have other parties but they are marginalized by our system and by the media. People are unaware or stay with one of the major two parties for strategic reasons.
Trump may not even agree with a lot of the things he says, but I wouldn’t like to take a chance. Also, he is nominally a republican and could approve the conservative programs that the republican controlled congress has in mind.
Phil
> Phil,
> I have also heard that even if the republicans refuse to let him go for president, he can still go as an independent and so probably take a lot of votes away from them..
> I did like the parts of the speech of today of that former candidate, forgot his name, that crushed a lot of Trumps so called truths, mentioning his wealth was heriditary and he bankrupted a lot of societies and put a lot of people out of their jobs etc.
> he also suggested to let IS get rid of Assad, as if IS would be a far better option..
> now I do not know that much about Assad, but I certainly would be surprised if he would be worse than IS controlling such a large territory..
> M
Hi, Margaret. I liked what Romney said about Trump . He showed reflection, though rehearsed, about the dangers of someone so impulsive as Trump. It’s worrisome that volatile Trump could meet with foreign leaders with his temper ruling.
Funny you should mention Hillary’s harsh voice. In her race against Obama for the nomination eight years ago I recall someone saying men wouldn’t vote for her because she reminded them of being yelled at by their moms. Ha. She probably has the toughness and experience, though, to deal with the middle east problems.
Another thing about ‘the Donald’. In the past, before the campaigning, seeing him with his family. His daughter looked comfortable around him and worked with him on celebrity apprentice. But his sons always looked guarded and rigid, like they didn’t want to step out of line. Can’t imagine what it would be like in that family for a son. Bet they would never cross him. So, just a thought for the day.
S
Here is something Jon Rappoport wrote about Trump. Lots of good points I think
“Because the media puffballs couldn’t imagine that a loose-talking devil-may-care-character would emerge on the scene and speak to the needs and frustrations of so many Americans—and bypass them, the media kings.
It was unthinkable.
Even worse, some Americans who didn’t agree with Trump and didn’t believe he was for real were still liking him, simply because he was cutting across the grain, he was talking back to media and telling them where to get off.
He was violating secrets of the media temple, matter-of-factly saying vaccines could cause autism, and promising to pin the blame for 9/11 on the real killers. He was blowing up the acceptable garble called political discourse. He was talking dismissive smack at his Republican opponents and at Hillary. He was saying the Globalist trade treaties were national sabotage and economic suicide.
He was his own media outlet.
And his ratings were soaring.
After Super Tuesday, he hit the top of the charts”
Now of course (me speaking) whatever hits the top of the charts does come down and sometimes rather fast. My prediction still is he will not make it not enough a President for Israel. That’s a serious ‘crime’ not usually allowed at all and in this case I imagine things will run through to form. Before that changes maybe there will not BE a world.
Interesting also Trump it seems has raised an alarm on vaccines……………..I did not know that. Some people might consider that a small point…………..I don’t the wholesale ruin of a whole generation of children is not a ‘small’ point. And that’s a bit what I mean about the guy can you imagine Hillary who is totally in the pockets of drug companies etc saying something like that……………I can’t and she won’t
How come you always so right, and most of the rest of us so wrong???
During the war there was a saying by a mother seeing her son in a military parade:- “They’re all out of step except our Johnnie” You sound like Johnnie.
Jack
> Jack, thanks, maybe it is simply the merit of our good news and opinion programs, we are well infomed mostly and also in different and often critical ways, different angles on things.
> and hardly any publicity except on some channels, and even there much less than what goes on on the horrible American networks. every seven minutes or so, it is almost more publicity than anything else there, the few times I tried to watch television in the States I could not stand watching it for an extended time, all that crap one has to endure..
> I remember an ad with antidepressants for dogs. easier than walking him?
> M
> come to think of it a tweeting Trump is a funny idea .. or a trumping Tweety..
> M
Margaret,
That is funny. The whole Trump thing is hilarious and that might be the best strategy
to be used with him. And the joke will be on the republicans if he gets the nomination.
And if that happens it will be a real media circus with Trump tweeting Hillary Clinton.
Phil
There is another debate, I mean comedy show, tonight with all of these clowns.
I don’t plan to watch; but I am interested to hear how it goes. These things
are getting very high ratings, but not in my book.
Phil
Trump referred to Marco Rubio’s attack on Trump’s small hands:
“I have to say this, he hit my hands. Nobody has ever hit my hands. I’ve never heard of this one. Look at those hands. Are they small hands? And he referred to my hands if they’re small, something else must be small,” he said. “I guarantee you there’s no problem. I guarantee you.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/donald-trump-small-hands-220223#ixzz41uVGlzIw
Personally, I can’t imagine anyone NOT voting Trump for president. Donald Trump is Mr. Entertainment. Don’t we, the American People, deserve at least four years of free entertainment? From the depths of my darkest little heart I believe we do!
I’d settle for a few months of taunting by the late night talk show hosts up until the election; but that’s it. Will miss David Letterman for his comments this political year.
I would say you have a point there Guru. People talk about Commander-in-Chief but the President is also Entertainer-in-Chief (EIC) and on that score Trump scores big. Could his schtic get ‘old’ I suppose it could and would. But for now to me at least he is by far the best on that score but a bit deeper than that is why? And it seems to me it’s all because ‘he says what is on his mind’ in so many ways. Something we are all missing so much in life (including here?) Like last night after the ‘debate’ he was talking to Bill O’Reilly the Fox News guy and at one point said to O’ Reilly ‘you are a bit full of yourself’ and this is just now how politicians are supposed to talk but he says sort of what an average person might be thinking. And to me that is why he keeps ‘winning’ even though ‘everyone’ is against him on TV etc……………….’everyone’ it seems except the voters!!
That is refreshing in a world of focus groups and ‘thought laws’ etc
People have have not commented on Trump’s ‘ethnic background’ (oh I forgot you are not supposed to do that nowadays) but anyway I will……………..he is from what I have read 1/2 German and 1/2 Scottish. And it’s weird I was talking to Dr Kruse and he is 3/4 German and 1/4 Irish and I said to Dr Kruse maybe that’s one reason I like him so much the German part the great brain the amazing ability to build thought systems and to be all around a brilliant scientist and the Irish part that wants to give it away to all the world for free…………………just because just to ‘help’ and well make the world a better place or a little worse place. As I say you are not supposed to talk like that but I think it’s real even Janov seems to be coming around to ideas like that what he calls ‘epi-genetics’ etc. I don;t ‘;like’ Trump as much as Dr Kruse not be a long shot but I do see certain similarities and to me in spite of all the ‘shock’ and ‘oohing and aahing’ and ‘political correctness’ I think he is ok. Or at least better that all these bought and paid for politicians like this guy Rubio he looks like a schoolboy (maybe showing my age here) he should be carrying a school bag to keep all the money he gets from the hedge funders and vulture funders. Totally bought and paid for and just a great President for Israel that’s the model Hillary Clinton is another one totally fits there is Trump much better maybe maybe not but we can ‘hope’ right?…………………..that’s still ‘allowed’ no?…………..
Having the Clintons in the white house could be entertaining as well. Classic scandals would be revisited with new ones, no doubt, arising. The country will grapple with the challenges of becoming comfortable with having the first female president and a former president first man. There would be insistent shouting for impeachment from the beginning by conservatives unable to stomach all this.
There will be plenty of entertainment and I’m sure Trump would continue to speak out to liven things up.
Phil
> Sylvia,
> by the way, it felt really nice to be called kiddo, as a 58 year old chick…
> a warm feeling, thanks!
> it would be really nice indeed if we could meet you at a retreat or otherwise, you sound like a very nice and smart person.
> how are your foster kitties?
> M
Hey Margaret, I have a few years on you but we still feel like kids, yes. My aunt used to call my mom that.
My stray kitties are still around. Only one is friendly and the other three are tolerant up to ten feet away. Still order my big bag of feed for them monthly. The mother and daughter are fluffy white and tan Siamese with blue eyes. Am sharing them with a neighbor who lets them sleep in her shed. They’ve beaten a path in the grass from my feed pan to under the fence. It’s a funny cat trail of about ten feet long and three inches wide.
Maybe someday I can meet you guys in town or a parking lot?( just kidding about the parking lot.) Am not much of a traveler. Sort of tied down with my animals and shifting health matters. Thank you and Leslie for your welcoming, and I love seeing you on the blog.
S
> like seeems to happen more lately, after the euphoria of having done a good exam, I get struck by a strong dip.
> maybe it is all the adrenaline dissolving that tends to cause a headache the day after, in combination with not having the next study material yet, so a big part of the time I usually spend studying suddenly becomes available, but reading only seems to satisfy me for shorter periods of time now and I feel too low the first day to do extra household chores..
> I still have a number of chapters of my textbook we did not have to study, but that I want to read, but don’t feel like passing that much time behind the computer today, my first day of rest.
> also my muscles are sore, must have been pretty tense yesterday, and that with the headache and the awful weather and the low spirits made me stay home from gym..
> yeah, well….
> have to sit it out.
> shed some tears hearing the Stabat mater from Pergolesi, very sad, when I thought of my former cat and the sadness of having to say goodbye to a precious being you would really want to save and protect forever and ever..
> yesterday evening got a sudden unexpected call from my mom, in a kind of panic, she thought I’d be waiting for a call from her, maybe subconsciously she remembered the exam, who knows..
> I reassured her we had talked a few hours earlier, I did not mention the exam again, as she already gave me nice feedback about it then, and she said she could go to bed with more peace of mind now she knew there was no problem with me expecting a call from her and worrying.
> as I say, dont know where that came from, but it was nice she was so easily reassured, and it was nice she actually called herself for a change.
> then she said ‘I’ll miss you you know’, which puzzled me, as it sounded like she thought I was going away.
> I asked her what she meant, she was confused for a second, but then lauged and said, well, always when I go to bed I miss you kids.
> it sounded sweet and made me laugh, and I told her to have nice dreams about us then, which made her laugh as well, and it was simply a very nice and pleasant interaction.
> a bit surrealistic but very nice, smiley..
> M
> ok, ordered some new books in the library and then did end up vacuuming and cleaning the floors after all, as it is indeed the best way to start feeling better and more in control again.
> like that smell of oldfashioned Marseille soap!!
> cats hopping around to hit wet mop..
> last night was very endearing to feel around in the dark on my bed. to suddenly find like one big soft cat with two heads, which of course turned out to be the two of them cuddled up really closely with their heads kind of on top of each other.
> their contentment is contagious, when they purr and roll over a bit to invite some petting under their chins and on their belly, stretching with pleasure it is impossible not to start feeling good as well..
> very relaxing too to go to sleep like that, the pile of cats right beside me purring..
> M
Margaret:
I can appreciate your wanting to cuddle with a pile of purring cats at least for a while. Unfortunately for me the lingering pet stench would weigh me down eventually. Yes, it can be sterile and lonesome without a pet….but your passage about cleanup reminds me why I would be very reluctant to have a pet. I am happy that you’re happy, though.
Maybe placing the kitty or non barking dog in a carefully cordoroned off room or outdoors area would work well enough for me, yet cleaning up after the pet would be a deal-breaker for me along with the stinky factor.
You can always tell immediately when you enter the home of a pet owner.
Here is a novel idea of punishing one’s children. Shave the top dome of their hair off until they look like old men with only a ring of hair around the side of their heads. Kids in school mercilessly tease the child until behavior is corrected and the hair is regrown to normal.
ARTICLE: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/07/mother-shaved-misbehaving-sons-head-paraded-him-around-walmart-in-a-tutu/?tid=a_inl
If you scroll down towards the bottom of the article you can see the pictures of what I am referring to.
This form of punishment did work for this kid in the story and I chuckled slightly at the pictures. Still a controversial means of parenting, though, and I can see why the humiliation factor is pretty brutal.
I forgot to add this idea is catching on in southern US states. The article said there are barbershops now offering these dome haircuts for parents with misbehaving kids.
I am neutral here. Just thought it was semi-interesting to share.
In my house just the idea of a haircut for my boys was usually taken by them as some form of punishment, especially by my youngest son. I never remember a haircut he was satisfied with and his high school graduating picture shows him sporting a large afro. Restaurant work has forced him to cut down on this kind of expression for some reason.
Phil
Phil: In a funny way your comment reminds me of my dialogue with my dad. I’ve noticed in recent years as a general pattern my dad tends to be more upset and agitated overall when I let my hair grow too long even though we might discuss a wide range of topics completely unrelated to my hair.
When I cut my hair short dad calms down a bit more when we discuss the same wide spectrum of subjects. It’s pretty clear to me there’s an unconscious factor to it, so I cut my hair relatively often to keep him happy whenever I see him.
> UG,
> with the litter boxes for the cats outdoors there is no smell whatsoever.
> and even cleaning the litter boxes is not a smelly job as the litter has a substance in it drying out and forming dry blobs of whatever is deposited in there.
> I even just heard of a trick to avoid damp car windows, fill a sock with cat litter and put it on the dashboard of the car. better use clean litter though..
> and I don’t know how you can be neutral about parents humiliating their kids like that, in a way it lasts for weeks and weeks, it is revolting.
> in those Southern states a lot of people tend to be pretty crazy imho..
> one hting is of course there the kid can easily get hold of a gun and blow their parents head off allltogether instead of just shaving their hair.
> M
Margaret:
I haven’t kept up with the latest in litterbox technology, so I believe you when you say there isn’t a smell left behind. Historically the houses I visited with cats had less of an “aroma” than the ones with dogs, too, and I was better able to tolerate it.
I have nothing against people owning pets as long as they’re well cared for. Aromas and barking are what kills it for me, though. I don’t mind cats shedding hair. I find that kinda cute, actually.
Where the boy with the punishment haircut is concerned: I am willing to be swayed to a harsher opinion against it. My neutrality implies flexibility. I’m generally a guy who likes to keep his options open, you know? Not be tied or bolted down to anything. It’s more fun being an unfettered spiritual traveler free of too many entrenched opinions than someone who virulently defends strongly-cherished opinions no matter the personal cost. I have relatively few such strong opinions.
My Jimbo is back home after an unhappy stay in hospital were they tried to help him recover from a botched procedure. He was unhappy about the way they treated him.
He still will eventually have to go back to get the original procedure done (hopefully correctly next time), but that should give him some time (a few weeks) to recover from what he describes as a harrowing experience.
I am so happy to have him back with me and I will do my utmost to make things as pleasant as I can for him. The one consolation is that the potential for a terminal illness seems to have been dislodged. That is such a relief and makes me more happy.
Jack
Jack,
I’m very glad to hear the good news on Jim’s condition and that he’s back home.
I hope when they repeat that procedure he’ll have a better experience.
Phil
> Jack,
> that sure is a relief!
> M
Margaret: It sure is. Thanks for your support,, and anyone else that might equally reply to me.
Jack
Margaret & Phil:
I gave your opinions on the “Benjamin Button” haircut punishment some more thought and I realized that actual, current parents would be better qualified to give an informed opinion on the matter. Phil (being a parent) seemed more sanguine about this haircut than Margaret, and my neutrality is perhaps an extension of the wisdom of knowing that childless people such as myself do not have all the parenting answers.
Surviving a brutally difficult and complex world may truly require some parents to take extreme measures to have cooperating children in order to ensure everyone’s longer-term survival. This society may be so deeply mired in a non-caring, non-feeling pathology overall it simply is not practicable to remove both parent and child from their localized situations into a long-term therapy clinic to try to hash out absolutely everything from beginning to end on top of re-integrating them both back into society. Optimally there would be no punishment, just endless unconditional love. It’s just not realistic in the current framework of society for most people, though.
Jack, I’m so glad to hear Jim is home and out of danger! What a relief! Hopefully his next procedure will go more smoothly that what he has just been through. In any case great news! Gretch
Guru, I find I am neutral on very few things and certainly this story would not be something I was on the fence about. In my opinion what this woman did to her child is truly both damaging and abusive. It’s bad enough that she cut the child’s hair and dressed him in a tutu but that she wrote all over him with a marker strikes me as an act of rage. I am sympathetic to how difficult it can be to raise a child but there are other options than the one she chose. One big problem may be the view that children should always ” cooperate “. Maybe we should celebrate a lack of cooperation. That’s an important lesson as well. Gretch
Gretchen: Well, I’m not celebrating your lack of cooperation with me here ;). Some of the topics you are touching upon cut very deeply into areas that I wouldn’t have the time to wade into.
One thought on cooperation, though: The computer I am typing in front of, the WordPress blog and all its software, the supply chain for all of our computers to arrive at our respective homes….require a form of collaborative cooperation amongst large groups of people, don’t they? Where would you propose that we find the optimal balance between chaos and cooperation so that we wouldn’t have to convey our parenting beliefs to each other using smoke signals from the forest instead of sophisticated blogging software that we are using right now?
In an encapsulated vacuum, the Summerhill school model of all kids chaotically striving for their own aims sounds wonderful on paper, yet demands of a larger society and all its technological achievements therein may require a standardized coercive cooperation of sorts among all its citizens to reap the crucial background benefits of modern life as a whole (ie. mass produced food, temperature controlled shelter, computers. transportation for most of us in the first world).
Guru: I find very often your way of wording things somewhat strange; like you have an agenda to convey something about yourself. I too find you stating often that you are “neutral” a sort of ‘fence sitting’, like: you deep down want to comment on something, then your comment comes out as “I’m neutral” We all of us, as I see it, have opinions about everything one way or another, informed or not informed. My take is to suggest, as Vivian often said in group:- “take a risk” put it our there and take the consiquesces. The only exception would be if the other person has a loaded gun.
Next is your comment about co-operation: It seems you are backing the notion of INSISTING on co-operation. If co-operation is forces upon us, then by definition it’s not true co-operation. My take is; co-operation should happen from ‘pure desire’ to join in some venture; not to be cohearsed into it. Having to earn money is a form of coheartion.
Last point; to quote Patrick again:- “If I was a modern German I would feel pretty much a victim of ‘hate’ isn’t it interesting how those things kind of go around in circles………….” Yes Patrick; that is the effect of neurosis. It perpetuates itself … from one generation to the next. that’s what is so insidious about it. From my own perspective; it was not until I had my first ‘total re-living” event (Primal) that I understood just EXACTLY, why, how, what neurosis is. It’s an amnesia from the very taste, smell, sight, sound, sensations of what we all of us experienced as tiny babies. The shear valance of it when it happend to me was devastating, in that I had lost the memory of just what it felt like … way back then.
Jack
Jack: Yes, I did type up my post in a hurry last night without thinking things through. A couple hours after I posted it, I did realize that “coercive cooperation” would come across as an oxymoronic phrase.
Perhaps monetarily incentivize in deference to a larger societal need rather than one’s own declared need (ala Summerhill school model) would be a clearer way to explain it in a very small way.
As for needing to earn money as a form of coercion, I can actually see your point there, yes. There has been some chatter recently about re-instating the Universal Basic Income for all people. Finland is putting this measure on the ballot later this year.
Forgot to add that I am strictly neutral on the Universal Basic Income concept.
When I was in my early twenties I met a guy just short of my age that went to Summerhill, he spent the first 9 months not attending classes, but eventually decided to go and see what the classes were all about. He claimed that within 3 months he’d caught up with most of the other kids and that he was free to chose whatever classes he desired thereafter, went to, and when to leave and even do assignments.
When I first heard of Summerhill I thought it was a cazy idea until I met this guy. It took some time for me to contemplate the notion of “Free Schools”. My persistence, due mainly to what this guy had told me about his experience there; which in turn set me off thinking about many other forms of freedom versus coercion. This was when I then attended those lectures I have formally recounted, that I attended in London.
The total conversion was slow, due mainly having ‘BOUGHT’ into my father’s notions of discipline, obedience, and general subserviance. In hindsight it is incredulous just how much we buy into what we were coerced into thinking and believing, and that includes religion. From my experience, and my feeling about all ‘religious thinking’, and ancient writers that were, as I see it now, neurotics but are deemed “wisdom and holy”. I was brought to religeon through total fear and the wrath of God … then told how benevelent he was. BULLSHIT of the hightest order. If one re-reads Leveticus and Dueteronomy we see a whole set of unutteerable insanity in it. The bible is NOT what it is cracked up to be. But then those poor ancients didn’t have Primal theory to fall back on.
Jack
The true irony here, Jack, is that I know a Primal patient who was in therapy for well over a decade and in recent years has turned into a Bible fanatic.
Every time I communicate with this person it seems as though the conversations relate to some sort of Biblical passage. The word “Bible” pops up once every few sentences or so.
The conversion was not forced in any way.
Obviously I will not identify this person.
Guru: Yes; and we have Dr. Michael Holden who fell into the same mold. It is the infusion of a super being (God) through fear as it was in my case. It took me many years to see through the indoctrination that was first done by my mother and then re-enforced through the Church and going to Sunday School. The whole of the arguments related to demonstrating this super being, disguised in a “human image” … what conceit!!!).
On a purely rational level looking at a dead human body, it is obviously DEAD, finished, the end. It’s neurotics feeling that this life was not fully rewarding (due to trauma in early childhood), that needs to sort of give ourselves some consolation to an afterlife. Not sure who and when that myth got created but I suspect even before the advent of Abraham (of biblical fame).
I contend that Jesus Christ was a creation of our imagination to demonstrate a perfect human. We are ALL of us perfect; or none of us are perfect. It matters little which of the two one choses. We are merely just ourselves … nothing more.
Bible thumpers of which my mother was a great one, is forever trying to justify itself, which (if really thought through) is irrational, ludicrus and insideous. For me the discovery and then deliniation of neurosis (Primal Theory) was the greatest discovery mankind has made OR, will ever make … since we now have a notion of what human life and our instincts are all about. We need to go no further; other than implimenting a more natural means to child rearing.
Sadly, I don’t even see the medical profession, going anywhere near considering it, and they are ‘supposedly’ amongst the brightest of us.
Jack
Have I been ‘quoted’ with approval ??!!??………………I’ll ‘take’ it lol………….
Well said!
Erron – it seems I was ‘wrong’ about that too if you read further lol………………..I can never quite get used to your name so close to “Error” which would make you ‘wrong’ also or ‘in error’………….reminds me of growing up Catholic where everything was ;right’ or ‘wrong’ we had ‘infallible’ Popes and ‘heretical’ people of various descriptions (straight and crooked thinkers lol). It seems here at least I fall into the ‘heresy’ group not the ‘infallible’ group. Suits me better somehow.
It is a function of my ‘un-happiness’ though even as a child though I longed to ‘believe’ and knew the consolations and even ecstasies of that………………in fact though I was outside looking in and complaining loudly about it…………at least most of the time my ‘belief’ had to do with an earlier time when I was smaller and more helpless and it was a shame that could not have continued until I was ready to ‘move on’. Instead I was MADE to move on………………………too early and too soon…………
All of this reminds me of some words of a song by Joy Division which to me is a beautiful song the bit about “abandoned too soon, set down with due care’ Very sadly Ian Curtis the writer of the words died by suicide not much later.
Walk in silence, don’t walk away in silence
See the danger, always danger
Endless talking, life rebuilding
Don’t walk away
Walk in silence, don’t turn away in silence
Your confusion, my illusion
Worn like a mask of self-hate, confronts and then dies
Don’t walk away
People like you find it easy
Naked to see, walking on air
Hunting by the rivers through the streets, every corner
Abandoned too soon, set down with due care
Don’t walk away in silence
Don’t walk away
> wow, I did not even know about the writing on her kid and had not paid much attention to what the tutu was really about.
> glad in a way I did not really go into the story, it felt bad enough imagining how it must be if your mother cuts your hair off in a ridiculous way.
> devastating, like a complete attack on one’s sane personality, trying to annihilate it, denying the kid any right to its own opinions and feelings.
> I feel really touched by this, I guess it links in somehow with my own feeling about my mom trying to invade my mental territory in many ways in my childhood, trying to take full control of me.
> it is a big source of pain as you have to start blocking out what on the other hand you desperately need and long for, a truly loving mom, and true and healthy intimacy and communication.
> it is also impossible imo to accept the full impact of the threat as a child,it is necessary to start making compromises to cling onto some kind of hope.
> seas of sadness under all of this..
> M
Jack, what a relief for you that Jimbo is home and that his condition is not life-threatening. Horrible for him that the procedure was harrowing…hopefully it will be better the next time.
That story about what the mother did to her child with the haircut etc seems diabolical almost beyond belief really. But what I also found interesting is the REASON at least supposedly she did all this according to her ‘he had made homophobic remarks’ Maybe this is a bit of a cheap shot on my part but it sort of points out the new ‘intolerance’ is this kind of weird political correctness and constant concern about so called ‘hate speech.Gays are a ‘protected group’ almost as a mirror of THE ‘protected group’ and kids instinctively kind of smell this hypocrisy. Of course it maybe just bullshit what the mother is saying maybe that’s not the real ‘reason’ at all but it is interesting even if that is the case that she would GIVE that ‘reason’. Like that is an acceptable reason to really punish someone he has used ‘homophobic remarks’.
I can relate also to the boy I did not like as I got older the haircuts my Dad ‘specialized’ in take a ‘shears/clippers and run it up the back and sides we considered it like shearing a sheep. I hated the result not when I was younger but when I was trying to become ‘cool’ (something I never managed to do lol even after all these years) And my Mom for a while dressed me in some cast off clothes of an older man (not my Dad) that she ‘came across’. That was worse. In teenage years that desire to fit in etc can be intense. Fashion etc. I remember there were shirts with buttons to kind of keep down the lapels of the collar i would DIE for one of those but somehow I never wangled one out of my parents. One time I was about 16 and about to go back to boarding school and somehow conveyed the ‘seriousness’ of the situation and got my parents to go on a shopping expedition for clothes. I remember it as being very uneasy like a great tension my fear about getting stuff I really wanted.The way I remember it it was a kind of ‘draw’ I got some things not all that I wanted but I felt ok for the most part. I got a t-shirt that’s not the right word anyway the one that went up around my neck polo shirt it was called I think. I was also happy about what I did NOT get the older man’s pants I had to wear before.
For some reason now I think of an earlier ‘episode’ I was about 10 y.o. and there was sometimes such ‘stress’ in the house in the morning mostly centered on ‘work’ all all there was to do. About 3 hours of work before we went to school 6 to 9 am. Anyway we used to get ready for school in a ‘hurry’ and one time I just put on some sandals and I later realized or was made to realize at school they did not ‘match’. They were the same size and color etc so I was ‘fooled’ but if you looked at then they were clearly not a pair the left from one pair the right from another. Anyway the other kids were totally mocking me and the school master stepped in to ‘protect’ me and I found myself sort of up before the class. But the point of this story is the teacher was all set to ‘protect’ me and give the others a lecture about picking on me in the wrong etc and somehow it was conveyed to him they were laughing at my shoes. The teacher was just about to put them straight about all this and he looked down at my shoes to start his speech sort of…………….and he SAW what they were mocking me about. He suddenly SAW and the way I remember it then said nothing. The whole thing passed but but it was like he was not on their side but it’s like he conveyed he knew and ‘understood’ what and why they were making fun of me. I went back to my seat and nothing more was said I think at that point the other kids felt sorry for me in a way everyone let the matter go. But it was embarrassing and humiliating to me and also because I felt it was a direct result of my own ‘stupidity’. Anyway just a memory……………..
To just finish about the mother in Guru’s story that is ‘beyond bad’ diabolical is the word that comes to mind and also hope it might tweak Gretchen’s mind a bit about how piling on someone about ‘hate speech’ can be and very often is a form of ‘hate’ itself. If I was a modern German I would feel pretty much a victim of ‘hate’ isn’t it interesting how those things kind of go around in circles………….
It wasn’t meant to be approval, but if you wish to take it that way and ‘laugh out loud’ about it, that’s your choice. I have known quite a few Germans and we have German relatives and I didn’t get a sense that any of them felt victimized out of hate. Maybe some of the older ones who voted for Adolph Hitler and gleefully joined his crusade might feel. as I feel Hitler apparently did, that they had been humiliated losing WW1 and some may feel the same about losing WW2.
Considering the recovery after the devastation of war on many of their cities and now their place in the EU; I feel most Germans, especially the young, are proud of their heritage.
Incidentally there is a memorial garden in Berlin of a maze that could be deemed grave stones, towards all of the victims of Nazi Germany. I don’t see coming from any of the current leaders of Germany; any of them being holocaust deniers.
Maybe … just maybe, being a neutral Irishman, there could be a sense of wishing Hitler’s Germany had beaten the British. Just a thought.
Jack
Patrick, It’s interesting that you would want to make a point about the ” political correctness” of wanting to put an end to hate speech. From there you go on to tell a story of the damage done to you as a result of that very thing. You also describe how not even the teacher put an end to that cruelty. Someone should have. As for the Gay population being a protected group…. Really ? I don’t think so. I also thought the mother was not being honest about why she was punishing the boy. It just did not ring true. Gretchen
Guru, I am not an expert on Summerhill though there are others in the community who are. I have done a great deal of reading on the subject however. That being said I don’t believe freedom creates a lack of cooperation or that conversely, discipline creates the cooperative future adult. Not at all. I think this connects somehow with the mistaken idea that we can somehow ” spoil” our children which I don’t believe is the case at all. I think we tend to give what we are given. Respect for a child’s feelings is what I believe is most likely to create the respectful and cooperative adult. Gretchen
Gretchen – first off I appreciate you ‘talk’ to me too often I seem to run into being ‘punished with silence’ or well the opposite in the case of Jack where I WISH for silence lol.
But about the mother I am inclined to agree with you it does not really ring true with me either but the fact is that IS what she said. In other words rightly or wrongly she felt that was a publicly acceptable ‘reason’ to give…………………I think that says something don’t you? I mean she could have picked a bunch of other bogus reasons but that’s the one she used because it seems very socially acceptable at least that is my reading of it.
I don’t think it is correct to say I was a victim of hate speech I mean I would not put it that way. I was mocked and bullied that’s for sure but in this case the way I see it I was already suffering very much at home to the point I was so ‘stressed’ I did not take the time or feel I had the time to even calmly put on my sandals. It was very stressful for a whole bunch of reasons I might fill out more one day. But anyway the other kids just picked up on that and even at the time I felt there was even some ‘fairness’ in them mocking me for having 2 different shoes on. I even felt the school master was ‘fair’ in a way, he was a quiet man and I liked him very much he had a soft and beautiful quality about him and he always projected that he liked me and encouraged me very much with my ‘lessons’. Anyway I am just describing what happened and it’s like he was all set to ‘defend’me though he never got involved in that way I think he thought it had gone too far that he had to ‘defend’ me but then when he looked well he felt he couldn’t given that I HAD 2 different shoes
I don’t even know what the ‘point’ of this story is but there seems something so sad about it all. Even as a child I was not inclined to ‘blame’ anyone……………………..I ‘understood’ it all and everyone’s point of view but it hurt all the more for that reason
The only one I could not really ‘forgive’ was myself. I made the ‘stupid’ mistake…………………..
Something else about the school teacher my brother who was a year older was good ‘academically’ he was trying to get a scholar ship which would mean my Dad would not have to pay anything for the next stage of his schooling (secondary school we called it age 13 to 18). Anyway and I did not know this ‘story’ until my older brother told me last year when I was in Ireland but apparently my Dad said to the teach ‘you might think J. is good but wait for the younger fellow (that’s me). Anyway my brother did ‘well’ in the exam came 45th in the county. That was considered good and I think the best our local school ever had achieved.
So next year – my turn. And that was the year after the ‘shoes’ the teacher was very helpful and supportive to me but I was the ‘younger’ one and I did not feel maybe that I could equal my older brother.The results came out and I was 17th in the county. That was un-precended sort of nobody had ever come in so high. (We were in a small country school and the schools in the bigger towns were felt to be impossible to compete with) Anyway my brother told me last summer my Dad went by the teacher’s shop (he had a shop too) and said ‘well what did I tell you’ My brother told me this without any seeming rancor just a story to show how my Dad has such a high opinion of my ‘intelligence’ as it used to be called. I was ‘impressed’ my brother did not seem to have any bad feelings about that both him and my Dad were inclined to just ‘give’ me that. That was a way too they showed their ‘love’ for me.All 3 of us were on the farm together a lot and I was the ‘baby’ so to speak so my Dad really seemed to feel I was very ‘smart’ and my brother always seemed quite willing to concede that to me. Again not sure of the point of the story – just a story.
Patrick: I’m not sure if you are referring to me when you mention being “punished with silence” or not. It just so happens that the topics you bring up are things that don’t resonate with me. The topics you want to talk about are vastly removed from what I would like to discuss.
Also, I’ve run into a rather frightening health issue over the last couple days I’d rather not discuss further.
No actually Guru you were not on my mind at all when I wrote that! I hope you are ok let us know right if you can. Really I hope you are OK
Dont’t let me down. Not my favorite Beatle song, but most everything they did was listenable to.I heard a good John song today, cant remember the title. One of John’s “jealous” songs warning his girlfriend to stop talking to another man. Anyway, As I have read in various places, Paul and John wanted to go in different directions, or John was tired of Paul’s control. Or something. Apparently happens to more than a few bands. Doesn’t matter much to me; they gave so much to all of us.. John came up with some great music afterwards, and that music is obviously totally irrelevant to music listeners of today, since you hear nothing of it on the radio, even Sirius, maybe Imagine, but not one of my great favorites either. Paul’s music afterwards was also good, how could it not be? They both had a gift. I listened to some Doors music today and had a good cry about a girl that liked the Doors too, we went to a few concerts and a dance together, and i wanted her so much, I wanted her so much because I missed my mommie, but also i was so very lonely in High School, a recluse half the time, even though I had friends. I later found out she had a boyfriend and got insanely depressed. Also i was beyond horny, really sad in the era of free love, I never did get any of it until too late. I stayed with my uncle one summer and he taught me how to grind a stone into a piece of jewelry and i gave it to her, and that was the greatest extent of the small amount of fathering advice in my life telling me about what i should know about girls. In other words, not nearly much at all. Girls like shiny things? There are some great jokes about that. Then my uncle would sit at night with me after he came home from his little jewelry business in downtown L.A. and *I don’t know if he was really doing any business or just went there to get out of the house. He would send me to get sandwiches for lunch and I felt real good doing that, going with him to work during the summer. He drahk a lot of whiskey at night and liked to tell stories about his life. The crying today about Joyce S brought many memories up about my uncle’s house, how his wife used to be alive when my brother and i were young and they had a boston terrier that obviously died somewhere in the ensuing years. The Sparklets bottle that was made out of real glass, the orange tree in his back yard. I guess he must have been my grandmother’s favorite brother, because he is the only one of her many brothers that she ever visited. Other memories brought up of our childhood house in Long Beach; every stick of furniture and the rug and the tv (i guess i remember that stuff so clearly because i was always alone at home with that stuff, plus there is some older feeling there from when my bad uncle kept me in an attic for long periods of time, and my only friends were the cardboard boxes in there) and how my brother and cousin didn’t ask me to go with them during the summer nights, and how pissed i was with them for doing that. Anyway.I really don’t think Paul disappeared, although when Curly Howard the Stooge died, they replaced him with Curly Joe, who was really a disappointment as far as I was concerned. We do know that the CIA disappeared many people, the Prime Minister of Iran, Allende in Chile, etc, but probably not Paul. Or let me say, I know nothing, as Sergeant Shultz always said. I really only know what i read or hear, and who knows if that is reality. I guess it was “Yoko and Me, that’s reality”, according to Mr John Lennon, my hero. My reality today is that I might start to be feeling better, maybe from the recent bits of crying, or maybe the world has turned to a particular longitude in the stars, or that I am finally getting some overtime, which would certainly take some stress out of my life. I can’t comment about what anyone else has said above, sorry. There appear to be some good foreign movies on youtube and if you hit close caption you just might get english subtitles. I saw and interesting one about the Reds trying to take Warsaw in 1920, a little love story in it too. Those Europeans have been attacking each other for millenia, and young boys and civilians dying as cannon fodder for the LEADERS. Are there really any good leaders out there? Fucking scary world. Not much different than dog eat dog. One last thing, i had a nightmare a day ago, in which i was trying to scream out, someone is killing my husband, but the screams were caught in my throat as usual ( a recurring theme in my nightmares), only able to barely push anything out of my mouth, I am not sure if I think that my wife is killing me, or if someone was killing me in my childhood and I now paste my wife’s face on that killer, which i probably should not be doing. Anyway.
There is something ‘weird’ about the “News” nowadays. What I notice is it’s like there is ONE
topic and mostly only that one at any given time. Like now it’s elections elections elections everywhere and ALL the time. Reminds me of when these doctors talk about a ‘simplified microbiome’ like we have only ONE species of bacteria in our gut when we need like hundreds or thousands. Sort of makes for stupid people or people with a one track mind or something.
Like when that Paris thing happened in December that was it Paris Paris Paris all day long wall to wall Paris. Then it’s gone poof might as well never have happened no follow up no questions no explanations no nothing. It’s like it has served ti’s purpose which was……………………….maybe to just fool and distract.
Then January another so called ‘terror event’ this time close to home San Bernadino CA. Same thing wall to wall nothing else on at all. And now even though this ‘happened’ supposedly close to here nothing whatsoever about it in the “News”
Then you have the ‘timing’ it’s like there was nothing much else going on no elections lol so they had December to fill and then January but now no more ‘terror events’ for a while at least until this election thing blows over. Would not want two competing ‘stories’ in the News at the same time. So when is the next ‘terror event’ maybe when the primaries are over and before the General really starts. Though that’s kind of messy maybe next year when the media is a bit empty.
Seriously though what kind of ‘event’; is this that can ‘happen’ and then no follow up whatsoever.Is there ANYTHING in the LA Times about San Bernadino at all now. My guess and ok it is only a guess is it is totally set up fakery involving ‘crisis actors’ and ‘fake Muslims’ all to keep this stupid meme going that “Muslims” are inherently dangerous and not to be trusted.
And 9/11 is also almost certainly one of those and London and Paris too and who knows what else.
Whilst I was living in Ibiza in the 70’s, my parents visited me there and my father asked if I was keeping up with the news. My ‘smarty pants’ retort was that the news for me was that Ophelia, the local shop keeper was about to have a baby. My father then said “I mean the world news”.
Since I was pretty stupid with languages (including English) I understood little of what was being discussed on TV and was certainly unable to make sense out of the newspapers. So! my news was local, in and around this tiny village of two shops, two bars, 15 houses and a church.
It was about this time that I heard the phrase “News junkies” Now here in the US and hearing mostly the only language I can partially understand … yes I have reverted to being a ‘news junky’
In the end it’s all relative, particularly since the “news” is a salable commodity. A business in the same vain as the moving business.
Jack
I was talking to my brother in Ireland the sheep farmer and he told me some things that happened there recently.First off his ‘vaccine free’ sheep and lambs have never been better health wise but now he has another problem. Two of the young lambs were ‘attacked’ by seagulls and both had their eyes taken out now totally blind (no eyes) When I was there there was some stories about seagulls even ‘attacking’ people kids maybe and taking their hamburgers stuff like that. But according to my brother they just took the eyes and that’s all it seems they wanted to do.
As if that was not bad enough foxes or a fox he does not know have been attacking the lambs also. They have carried off 6 already but then something happened yesterday he found one of the lambs be-headed. Literally lying there but without a head. And I dunno this has really been on my mind…………………..it’s like we humans can have our concerns or arguments or whatever but just the rawness of Nature. Nature is wonderful of course and we are always told that and telling ourselves that but that is kind of the other side. Where only one can live or die the fox is starving and he WILL kill to eat.
I feel bad for my brother also he feels somehow like life itself is turning against him almost or there is some serious disruptions going on in nature. My ‘theory’ (knowing me I would have one lol) is the oceans are dying and it is harder and harder for the sea gulls to get fish there and they are looking for what they get most importantly from fish DHA or what is often called Omega–3 fats which are found in fish but is also plentiful in the brains and apparently even more in the eyes of mammals. The sea gulls need it for THEIR brains and eyes and they find it wherever they can
The foxes might even be partly a similar story aside from overall hunger this time he seemed to go specifically for the head of brain and I am sure the eyes also. The foxes are hungry less ‘wild life’ in general less rabbits, hares and so on. Nature is in so much trouble all because of ‘us’ of course and the climate there is getting more and more chaotic incredible amounts of rain. Ireland was always famous for it’s rain but apparently this Winter has broken all records in that department. Add in the bankers having wrecked the economy and the prospect of being flooded by refugees from the Middle East and I can see why he feels time is out of joint. Sometimes feels like some almost Biblical portent of very bad things to come………………….though he tries to keep his Irish sense of humor about it.
An example of his “Irish sense of humor’ he wondered given the be-heading if he might be able to declare some kind of ‘war on terror’ on the fox in the place of ISIS. I told him my ‘theory’ ISIS has nothing to do with “Islam” it actually stands for “Intelligence, Surveillance, Infiltration, Subversion” (I ‘got’ this from someone else) and he seemed to agree. My family seems to kind of ‘give’ me that they ‘agree’ with me even it they think I am also pretty much ‘wrong’ about everything. You almost have to be Irish to ‘understand’ that lol..
> I just decided to stop thinking about it and to stop procrastinating and ordered my tickets to fly over this summer..
> a nice 7 day long retreat and one more week after that!
> normally I prefer to stay longer but don’t want to leave my two cats alone for too long the first time.
> a lady will come by twice a day to look after them and they have each other and plenty of space, they can go into every room and also outside, and I am sure my brother will also visit them as he adores them, so it should be ok.
> a seven day retreat feels like a treat, a luxury, and it will be very nice to see almost everyone again, specially as I did not go last year..
> as always my tension diminishes once I have decided and taken steps..
> time to start looking forward to it now!
> M
Yeah – good news Margaret!! It will be a relaxing & rewarding time away and then so exciting to get home to your kitties afterwards 🙂
Glad to hear your good news about Jim too Jack!
L
Leslie: thanks, but it’s not all over with yet, but things are looking better. He has to go for another procedure now before a redo of the original one. He is in better spirits though and that is good for both of us.
Jack
Margaret, Well done you!
Jo
> Jo, Leslie,
> smiley,
> M
DO NOT READ THIS, IT IS A BUMMER AS USUAL. SORRY BUT I HAVE TO PUT THIS IN HERE TO SOMEHOW GET IT OFF MY MIND MR. NEGATIVE. OK, over here, the seagulls raid the trash dumps, as there are probably not enough fish left to eat. Maybe the Irish seagulls are getting to the only part of the lamb that they can get to. I don’t know if their beaks are strong enough to kill a lamb and then take the chops home to their chicks too. I feel bad for the lambs as they will eventually get their throats cut. Maybe not as soon over there, as over here, because i have heard that the British and maybe the Irish eat older sheep instead of babies. I grew up not knowing where meat came from, and I was fed a lot of meat , and have tried in the past to quit eating meat, but I am addicted. It certainly kills pain. i now do not eat lobster nor lamb. I prefer beef because I think they at least get a sharp bolt plunged into their brains to knock them out before having their throats cut. I try not to eat factory-farmed chickens because of them being tortured for months by being unable to move around, same for veal. I don’t like to eat turkeys either, as I read bad stories of turkeys at the slaughterhouse. I know people got to make a living. The Computer industry is probably one of the worst things that could have happened to the planet, and I feel gujlty of making my living with computers. I was depressed out of my gourd until I started writing this; now i am much better for a few minutes, as i only feel STUPID. STUPID MOTHER-FUCKING ME. I took off of work so we can drive down to see my son and his wife and their babies. I have little to give them, and I feel as if I am selfish by thinking only about myself as always, but if I don’t think about myself and I am getting nothing, what else is there to live for? I am tired of giving giving giving. At this point, I am only staying alive so the last dog won’t be left alone, and maybe the same for the cat, and trying to keep a roof overhead for the wife, and so the kids don’t have to have grief from me at this point in their lives. I usually am not depressed if I go to work, but as I said, we got to go see the kid when they have time available for us. I don’t think that even if I did a year of crying every Saturday at the PI, that my grief will ever be released from my tired body. Pardon my hopelessness. It gets worse by the day. When I am ready to go, I will go to one of those restaurants that challenge you to eat a 10 pound steak inside of an hour. That should be enough to convey to my heart that I want it to stop working. Not smiley. Frowny.
Dear Frowny, Maybe you can’t see your improvements yourself, but they are surely there. You are conversing with us more, interacting more; I think that is good. You are probably getting smarter too.
Computers aren’t all bad, we all can talk to each other here, a good thing, huh.
S
> chances are big seagulls are changing their behavior as there are less fish, while maybe also there are more seagulls.
> but maybe they have also always been somewhat versatile and opportunistic as to their food.
> there has been a study recently here tracking certain specific seagulls as to find out about their feeding habits.
> turns out they are very individual and different.
> some remain around the shore, while others go to other spots for their favourite food.
> one extreme example was one seagull that every day flies about 30 miles inland to a factory where they make potatoe crisps and it fills its stomach there all day long with those, must be plenty around somehow maybe from broken containers and bags, and then in the evening flies back to the shore…
> a lot of them feed on other bird’s eggs, if they can, snatch food out of tourist’s hands, tear garbage bags apart, I kind of like them, as a kid already said if I could choose I would like to be a seagull.
> they are smaller over here than in L.A., and I liked the whiteness with which they stand out against the sky, the easiness of their floating around in the sea, and in the skies, looked like a pleasant life..
> they can be pretty nasty too I guess..
> we seem to have an increasing number of them at our shores, some wanted to shoot them off but there was too much protest against it, now they replace their eggs with false eggs as to reduce their breeding results…
>
> and well, haha, they shit on people and on their precious cars!
> M
Margaret you say ‘turns out they are very individualistic and different’……………..sounds like some ‘sociologist of seagulls’ coming up with a notion so he does not have to connect any disturbing realities though I am sure it is also true on that level. But so called ‘science’ is full of that kind of stuff it’s like never connect to any deeper truths that is considered ‘unwarranted speculation’ or whatever. By these means including in politics nothing is ever put together and the ‘scientist’ can keep his job and nobody is unduly disturbed and we can play games with statistics and ‘deviations from the mean’ and all that kind of blather. Turns out vaccines takers are very ‘individualistic’ in their response some are fine as far as we can tell some get the flu some get serious and permanent brain damage and some die…………………….so ‘it’s too early to say’ we need to ‘study the issue more’ and we should not listen to ‘un-educated fear mongers’ and above all we need to continue to ‘study’ it that way we get to keep all our jobs………….same in politics or actually not in some cases, in some cases some things can never be ‘studied’ and the social scientist needs to be put in jail if he even tries at least in Eelgium lol………..
Quote:- “But so called ‘science’ is full of that kind of stuff ……..” Sooooo!! who decides what is true science and what is false science. I hope to ‘Godo’ that it ain’t Patrick Griffin … given his record of accountancy … on anything.
Another quote:- “By these means including in politics nothing is ever put together and the ‘scientist’ can keep his job and nobody is unduly disturbed and we can play games with statistics and ‘deviations from the mean’ and all that kind of blather.” But doesn’t the same apply to those psuedo dictators … company owners , of which you were one????? It’s got a name:- NEUROSIS, and seemingly 99.99999% of humanity suffers from it But then I suppse ‘know-it-all Griffin’ will know better and attempt to convince us all differently.
Any yet another quote:- “Turns out vaccines takers are very ‘individualistic’ in their response some are fine as far as we can tell some get the flu some get serious and permanent brain damage and some die…………………….so” We all of us die in the end and no doubt that is because of vaccines; wither or not we get injected with em or not … yeah!!! I thought clowns were to be found in circuses … and the Republican party of the US … it seems they creep into all walks of life … including this blog. Yes; I could well be one of them.
Sudies, studies, studies until we’ve gotten studies up our rear ends. Just because something is studied doesn’t make it a universal fact … as history can inform us.
And yet another quote:- “we should not listen to ‘un-educated fear mongers’ “. Now who would they be???????????????
Jack
Just by way of taking a break from poking Patrick, I thought I’d reminis and reflect on my life. All things considered I’ve had a great life. Could it have been better? I have no idea. I can only feel, looking and listening to others, that it seems to me I was lucky.
On another tack; I have for many years been interested in astronomy going back to my youth, I am of the opinion that that there was no begining to the universe, in contradiction to what Stephen Hawking suggests. I know he holds the Isaac Newton chair at Cambridge Univercity, to me, the universe always existed in one form or another and as nature seems to suggest, things go in circles … no beginings, no ends. The only chair I hold is the $5 patio chair that I sit on and soak up the sun on those clear blue sky days Beginings and ends is just another concept. Time is a man made construct as is all of mathatematics and language and all the other stuff we dredge up. I don’t see any oither creature indulging such stuff.
Another factor I contend is that what we deem science is another man made explanation of what we see, hear, and feel around us. The unutterably notion that there might be “intelligent life” out there in what we call the universe. If mankind is concieted enough, as I feel, that we are intelligence (whatever intelligence is SUPPOSED to mean) and we send discs of information written in our own concepts, and hope some other creature will capture it and be able to decipher it is about as crazy (nuerotic) as we can ever get. It’s all a farce …
I got pooped out of my mothers womb (so it is said) and all there was as of that moment and perhaps before inside the womb, was the ability to feel, and all the means to express it. What should have been the case from there-on-in is that was my birthright and should never have had it taken away from me. It took me years to get some of it back and then when I finally read “The Primal Scream” I just know from the very bottom of my being that, that was what I wanted and had always wanted.
I spent the next 35 years getting more and more of it back again. Will it ever be complete. That’s another of those concept called completion. All I need is to continue that very same journey through life until the day I drop dead. When that happens that is the end of me. The only thing that might remain is the momory of me within other people … but that will no longer be of any concern to me.
There! that is my wisdom, or the lack of it, Meantime, Jim and I are enjoying his being home, and both of us hoping it lasts.
Jack
Depressed, not totally out of my gourd but close, although I was worse earlier today and yesterday. Saw my youngest son yesterday with his wife who has her semi-paralyzed foot which came to be during the birthing of my new niece last month. Saw my son and his 1 ½ year old boy, who I am falling for, for lack of better words, and I am terrified for him, possibly seeing myself at that age, but also they are living in her aunt’s guest house until his wife recuperates. There is an uncovered pool on this rich man’s house on the cliffs of the Pacific, and there are no fences anywhere to stop an errant child from tumbling down the rocky cliffs or to drown in the swimming pool. My son seems to be rough with the kid, and I mentioned it to him, and he was pummeling the child with a pillow fairly hard, and although the child laughed at some point, I still felt it was too much. And my son does not ever seem to hold his son, but he is not out-and-out mean to him and does appear to love him. My son is cranky; his sick wife is out of work, their obamacare hmo is a nightmare, and her family was supposed to be helping more with raising these kids. I don’t know what the arrangements were, but apparently they are not working. Now the wife’s mom and aunt are trying to drag the wife’s doped out sister into the act, to get her out of her depression by having her help out with the kids, and that sounds alarming to me. My son is stressed and there is nothing I can do to help. They had to move close to his wife’s mom, as so she could help with the kids, but making it impossible for us to really do much to help because of the distance, and the wife supposedly does not like us that much anyways, and I am exhausted anyways, so just more shit to feel bad about. It never really gets any better. I did figure out this increasing bout of depression is probably from crying out the grief of my late childhood, and thus getting closer to the really tragic grief of losing my mom at age 10 months. I assume all this grief is chained together somehow, and psychosis is barely being kept at bay. My son was diagnosed as Ausbergers/milder autism when he was a teenager. He surely had reasons for it, but I don’t feel like going into that at all right now. Got to go to court with my other son later this month to try to get some drugged-out shoplifting expunged off of his record so he can move on with his life. I had to write a letter to the judge explaining why I thought the record should be cleared and of course it brings up all kinds of bad memories. I did not hold nor touch my son’s son yesterday, I don’t know why, he doesn’t appear to be a very cuddly child, although his mom appears to be loving enough with him thank god. I started to take him for a little walk outside of their guest house, but I got freaked out by being at the millionaire’s residence, of course I always feel like garbage when I am somewhere where the folks are better than me. Freaked out by the swimming pool. Freaked out because I did not know how to communicate with the little boy to keep him away from the swimming pool, we so rarely see my son’s family so I feel like a stranger with them. I could hardly ever say no to my 2 kids, and still have a hard time with it. So Z took him for a walk instead which she enjoyed. I said my son is not stupid but he is 28-year old stupid, I also told him to buy some condoms, because any more children will destroy him. Another reason I got really depressed is, that I looked at my taxes briefly, and I will owe a lot this year, and I got a chunk of back pay last year, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why I didn’t pay half of it to the IRS in anticipation of this years taxes. I can’t remember what I spent it on, previous taxes, dental and other bills. I feel horrible for being so fucking stupid and causing myself so much grief. Of course I did not discuss it last year with Z, she had also gotten a bit of money from a car accident, and refused to put any of it into the tax pot. I am getting near the end. I have just about had it. The shit never ends, and a lot of it exists because of me and my cross-wired brain. Another person at work got promoted out of our group, makes me feel bad, though I don’t want to get promoted. Now we are all being urged to work harder and my brain is going kaput trying to do the simplest of things, like take some newish computers and taking parts from two of them to make one pc, because the pressure is always on, and some stupid asshole took the memory out of a new computer to put in someone else’s computer, and I am just blindsided by the fucking insanity where I work, they cant afford to buy memory or network cables for computers, but they buy shelving for 2000 bucks that has sat unopened for a year, or cable testers that no one ever uses. And on and on. What a fucking nightmare. No relief. A fucking beautiful woman in the chipotle where I go to get Z’s dinner every night. My big thrill of the day. I was able to turn and look at a woman’s face this time, I have no idea why, and got my 3 seconds of bliss and another 2 minutes of grief walking back to car, because I am not a man, I am just a puddle of shit on the sidewalk.. I am usually too shy to look when I see any woman. No chance of fucking her, although my man-brain is always reminding me every 3 seconds that I have to fuck every woman I see or I am going to die. And of course, the mommie-loss thing always gets tacked onto the whole thing . I am old fat and ugly, I have been for a while, and even if I wasn’t, I never knew how to fuck, and now the equipment is just about useless. I can get along without a vibrator , and even lotion, and I can even turn the sound off of the computer, and I can even turn off the computer and just remember the videos, so the crazy neighbors next door who like to walk on their roofs wont see me through the window, or Z wont burst into my bedroom and see me in my 2 seconds of passion. Just a simple ugly life with microscopic cheap thrills and deep deep disappointments. Just enough thrill to keep the psycho wolves at bay. Maybe I am acting out here, huh? Or, this is as good as it’s going to get.
> boy, all I wanted to say is some seagull exists that every day flies over 30 miles to eat potatoe crisps all day, and then back in the evening to float on the water or to sleep somewhere else.
> found that a pretty amazing fact all on its own, that’s all…
> M
Margaret,
A lot of seagulls here seem to live at walmart and other shopping areas and have probably never even seen the ocean. They are hooked on junk food.
Phil
Phil – I think that is correct. At the beach here now I hardly see any birds except seagulls which is a big change from even a few years ago. It’s amazing even in that time how many birds (pelicans and many other kind of birds) have just ‘disappeared’. I do still see seagulls but as you say there are lots of trash cans down there and it seems they mostly live from that. Maybe in the west of Ireland a thinly populated area with little or no ‘trash cans’ they have less to eat Maybe also maybe Irish seagulls have more regard for their brains lol maybe here the seagulls are more ‘fat dumb and happy’ a bit like the people I’m afraid to say. In any case the 6th Extinction Event seems to be going ahead full tilt and it is hard to see it stopping. Nature (and us) are in huge trouble…………
Below is a part of an interview with Diana Johnstone in counterpunch and pretty much sums up my take on the elections here etc. Sort of underlines the point we will or are meant to just elect a “President for Israel” and sad to say Trump maybe just the ‘best of a very bad lot’. Not that he is ‘good’ but the alternatives are so bad. I consider both Hillary Clinton or Ted Cruz as true disasters for the US and all humanity and true war mongers who will push us dangerously close to a ‘hot war’ with Russia. So long as we are being led around by the nose by an aggressive devious and very wealthy source no good can come out of it. Scared and pushed around by various ‘false flag’ operations Charlie Hebdo, Paris, San Bernadino, 9/11 and let’s not forget the biggest false flag of the all the so called ‘holocaust’……………..you might say the Big Kahuna of ‘lies’ and after that there is just a flood of them………………
“Counterpunch – In the chapter titled “The War Party” you write that “[s]ince the War Party dominates both branches of the Two-Party-System , the recent track record suggests the Republicans will nominate a candidate bad enough to make Hillary look good.” It sounds like you anticipated the incredible rise of Donald Trump, doesn’t it?
Diana Johnstone – : As a matter of fact I didn’t. But I did anticipate the rise of Trump’s main rival, Ted Cruz, who may actually be worse than Trump. As Robert Reich has pointed out, Cruz is a radical right-wing fanatic, with solid reactionary convictions, who is sure to do the wrong thing. Trump shoots off his mouth in all directions, so much so that there’s no telling what he might do. At least he does seem interested in avoiding war with Russia.
Nor did I anticipate the rise of Bernie Sanders, and the enthusiasm he has aroused among young people at the prospect of nominating a decent alternative to Hillary Clinton.
Both phenomena show the deep dissatisfaction among Americans with the country’s dysfunctional political system.
Counterpunch – In “Queen of Chaos,” you predicted that “[a]s things look now, the 2016 presidential race could be a contest between Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson. In either case, the winner would be Israel.” Could you elaborate on Saban’s “devotion” to another Clinton presidency and what it would mean for U.S. foreign policy?
Diana Johnstone – If you think U.S. policy couldn’t be more pro-Israel than it is now, just wait until you see Hillary in the White House. After Haim Saban pledged to spend “as much as necessary” to make her President, Hillary Clinton has pledged to invite Netanyahu to the While House in her first month as President, to use the occasion to “reaffirm the unbreakable bonds of friendship and unity” between America and Israel, and to do everything to destroy the Boycott-Divestment-Sanctions (BDS) movement. She continues to echo Israeli denunciations of Iran as a dangerous “terrorist state”. She has previously equated criticism of Israeli policies with “anti-Semitism” and blamed the people of Gaza for Israeli assaults on their wretched territory.
Previous Presidents, including Obama, have often had their moments of exasperation with Israel’s uncontrollable conduct. With Hillary, it seems that there would be no objections to further Israeli destruction of Gaza or even to attacks on Iran. She is perfectly in line with Israel’s tacit policy to destroy and dismember Syria”.
> it was a hectic day yesterday.
> my mom’s central heating had broken down and her television was not functioning anumore either.
> it took a lot of phonecalls both by me and my brother to get someone to go fix it, and at the same time I was inquiring about volunteers maybe visiting my mom from time to time, but that turned out to be complicated.
> the home she is supposed to go to has volunteers but they refused to let them walk over to my mom’s place, just a few minutes walking, to get her to come along for an afternoon there. they would not have to entertain her there, she would just play the piano and go to the cafeteria.
> so it was disapppointing they did not want to do that.
> at the same time I found out the ‘urgent’ waiting list my mom is on, for 8 months now, has a lot of people on it, so it can take a year or more before e
> she gets an opportunity there…
> luckily I found some other volunteers through the walking club she has been in all her life, who will go and see her when the weather is nice, and take her along for a walk, if she feels like it, on a regular basis.
> if she agrees, that is never obvious for my mom..
> today on the phone she said she thinks all the time ‘I have to go home soon’, to then think ‘what am I thinking, this can’t be right’, and it made me worry even more.
> we could laugh with it, I said i hoped at least she was feeling ok at the place she was in the meantime, and said she should call me in case of doubts, and she could laugh, but also said she might call me to ask me where she was…
> it sounds like another of her cognitive skills is being impaired bit by bit.
> she sounds beat down, but when I try to encourage her to go out as it is finally a bit of a sunny day, she says she does not feel like it and wants to sleep.
> with the doctor we agreed to dininish her medication to only half of the dose she was taking, hoping she’d sleep less during the day, but with the risk of psychotic symptoms turning up again.
> it is sad to see all these problems and not to be able to solve them all. on top of that it is worrying she loses capacities while there might not be a place in the nursing home for a long time..
> glad though I could manage to find these two ladies from the hiking club who want to go see her regularly..
>
> and got my results for my exam, an 8, smiley. I am getting a bit to ambitious, haha, had actually hoped for maybe a 9, but well, even if you have say a 9,4, they always deduce a number of points because of the possibility of guessing for some of the answers, as it is a multiple choice exam. so if then finally you have an 8.9 it becomes automatically an 8. yeah, I am I must admit kind of a streber in my old days!
>
> while waiting for the new courses to arrive,am reading the chapters we did not have to study from the last textbook. some of them interesting. others less so..
> seem to be getting somewhat hooked on studying..
> M
Yesterday Donald Trump told protestors to “Go home to mommy” at the Peabody Opera House in downtown St. Louis.
The Peabody Opera House is exactly one mile away from the precise spot where my own mother was killed so long ago.
Nowhere else in the entire United States’ geographic area of 3 million square miles has Trump told his detractors to “go home to mommy” except in a spot only a single mile away from where I suddenly lost my own mommy.
Perhaps it’s a latent psychic connection, yes? As I said before, having Trump as president should provide massive entertainment value for me in ways I can only begin to fathom at this point in time.
It looks like Trump also said “go home to mommy” to a detractor in North Carolina a few days ago, so that bumps up the odds of it being a coincidence quite a bit. It just struck me as really weird (and a tad bit awe-inspiring) that Trump would say “go home to mommy” slightly less than a mile from my own personally consecrated Ground Zero, that is all.
Guru – he also told someone yesterday to “get a job” which seemed ‘funny’ in a throw back way at least to my ears. I remember when I came to LA in 1978 and someone who was/became a good friend (still is) who was in my ‘starting group’ as we called it used that phrase and it seemed so unlike him but at the same time I found it ‘funny’ like that’s very “Ameican” sense of humor. Very blunt and direct. Like later ones that come to mind “get a room” that’s pretty funny for people doing too much PDA. Using acronyms like that is pretty ‘funny’ also to me at least.also very “American” again acronyms like borrowed from the military sort of. Another one I found very funny was “Shit happens” that was a bumper sticker at the time and I thought ‘how true that is’ lol. Donald Rumsfeld kind of referred to that one in the Iraq debacle when he said “Stuff happens” it was pretty clear what he wanted to say. Nowadays he probably would.
Warming to this subject…………..I remember a bumper sticker in big letters saying “Jesus is coming” and I thought OK again pretty “American” but as I got up close behind the car in very small letters was written ‘and man, is he pissed” I found that hilarious. Another bumper sticker from that time “It used to be wine, women and song – now it’s beer, the old lady and TV” I can’t think of any more right now but in those days bumper stickers were a kind of ‘art form’ not much at all nowadays. Later there were more ‘political’ ones like ‘Bush lied – they died” or I had one that said “Food not bombs” but the ‘humor’ had gone out of them and now they seem to have gone away almost completely
Trump for sure will provide ‘entertainment value’ but it’s getting pretty nasty out there. What sort of ‘get’s me’ is now pretty much ALL ‘pundits’ of almost any stripe is ‘against’ him (except the voters so far at least) Like Rachel Maddow a good maybe make believe ‘leftist’ is ranting about him yesterday and one thing occurs to me why don’t any of these so called ‘leftists’ wonder for a moment why is it ALSO that the ‘neo con’ Right Wing are just as determined to try to stop him. Like as I say they are ALL against him that alone makes me think he is on to something. (Like myself here lol). The ‘educated’ love to mock him like he said “I love the under educated” and that is ‘proof’ he likes people being ‘stupid’ but I don’t take it that way. Look at what a mess the ‘educated’ have made of things I quite like him saying stuff like that.
Or at the last ‘debate’ he was asked ‘you say Muslims hate us, do you mean all 1.7 billion of them’ and he goes ‘well a good lot of them’ which I thought might well be true we have given them plenty REASON to hate us. Then he said if you have people flying around running planes into buildings that’s an indication of a big problem’ And if you think about it again that’s ‘true’ but to me at least where he unfortunately kind of fails there is he is the victim of ‘poor information’ like he believes it seems the fairy story about Muslims hi-jacking planes and running into buildings. That why it seems to me if your initial ‘information’ is wrong it just leads to more and more problems. Also why I think it important to know or find out what REALLY happened in the ‘holocaust’ or try to find out as best as one can not just go with ‘fairy stories’ and worse then pass laws against anyone who wants to apply a little logic and research into it. That is a recipe for disaster and disaster is what we have now for the most part.
I still ‘predict’ Trump will not ‘make it’.They will find a way to ‘stop’ him and knowing this country if all else fails there is assassination. That’s the ‘culture’ of this country and don’t forget it It has happened before and to ‘better’ people than Trump if I was him I would be afraid but some people are a lot ‘braver’ than me…………….
Screenwriter Bob Gale had Donald Trump in mind when he made 1989’s Back to the Future 2. The movie is frighteningly accurate by portraying orange-haired bully Biff Tannen as a powerful mega-casino operator in a dystopian American wasteland which takes place in the year…..2015.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/21/how-back-to-the-future-predicted-trump.html
Patrick, I will go back and read the rest of your post in a minute. However, the bumper sticker that I remember most was a bumper sticker I saw in a Trader Joes sometime in the Iraq war years probably, not sure. Not on a car, but on a woman’s behind, not the stupid PINK slogan, but this one: “No peace, no pussy”. HA! if it were only that easy.
Dr. Bush, Dr. Clinton, Dr. Bush. (You know, the Stooge short..Paging Dr Howard, Dr Fine,Dr Howard…)Did anyone ask these guys when they were running for President, how they would avert a nuclear war? Because a lot of people are thinking it’s inevitable, due to the smaller wars these presidents (and the rest of our world leaders) started or contributed to.. Is anyone asking Trunk, Barney, and Pantsuity how they are going to keep everyone’s fingers off the buttons?
yes, all the comedians are probably secretly hoping Trump will win.
Cried a good cry at the PI. Thanks for the room PI. Yes it is going to take many months to cry out the grief I have been amassing since month 10. Started mostly with my grandma, remembering her in her apartment in her old age. She held out for a long time. She pulled her little cart and walked down to the Alpha Beta grocery store. She clipped coupons for me that I rarely used. I didn’t visit her a lot. My brother and I played darts in her garage when I got kicked out of the Navy and I stayed with her for a while. I remembered seeing her coffin, outside in the Glendale Forest Lawn, everyone sitting in a row of chairs while the undertaker spoke about her love of going out to eat and how she was always in charge of everything; the undertaker having been briefed by someone in the family, I guess. I don’t think any of us went to the podium to say a word. Me and Z and the kids had arrived late, as usual, so I have no idea what ceremony had already gone on in the chapel, viewing or whatever. They asked me if they should open the coffin so I could see her one last time but I said no. One of my younger cousins had his sunglasses on and tears were flowing down his face. I could not allow myself to cry at that time of course. This was the woman who had basically been my mother and father for most of my childhood. She was a pain in the ass, but I felt somewhat of a closeness, at least closer than my brother. But she was definitely not a cuddly person, and I was left alone a lot, even when she was home. So I held those tears in for about 20 years until today. I cried and said Sorry, I am sorry you had to work so hard. I remembered her in her final years in the cheapo nursing home where they didn’t even provide chairs for the visitors. She had lost her hearing and didn’t talk. She had always been an incessant obnoxious talker. One time I took a movie projector and showed her all the old films from my childhood, all our cousins etc. I was at work at night in LA, when z and the kids were in the mountain house. My brother called me and said the nursing home had called to say that she was having trouble breathing, and I cant remember, but the feeling was that she was dying, but I could not get down there, I had no car, and my brother wasn’t going dowh there, and I could not think what to do, and then she died that night. I am not sure if my aunts had stayed with her that night. I feel like such a lousy son, and of course, lousy father. Then I cried again about my dachshund who I had to put to sleep last year, remembering the walks me and the 3 dogs took around the lake at the park. And also the cat who lived in the bathroom at the end of her life, and she just lived to be petted. And then, still crying, I started remembering my mom, when I was still a baby, and her 2 sisters, my grandmother and her sister, all in this big house that my grandmother had in San Gabriel or some place like that. I remember some bacon smells, and the window in my mom’s upstairs bedroom, where I had a crib and would spend time with her, and my older brother, and their little dog. Cried too hard, my nose started bleeding. I stopped at a good place. I know I am not done crying about all this. Oh yeah I was also crying about the time after I was taken away from my sick mom and was living at my mean uncle’s for a while, being alone in a bassinette, crying crying alone, something else I remembered about that aloneness, but I forget now. Remembering the details of his house, the pigeon coop, other stuff. Then I remembered all my aunts and uncles and cousins, we used to spend some good times together over the years and I said goodbye to them today, I haven’t seen any of them in years and some are dead, and I keep saying that it is almost over. It;’s almost over. This fucking shit is almost over. So much pain.
I have talked about my brother’s problem with the fox or maybe foxes killing his lambs. Well I spoke to him 2 days ago and by then THREE more beheaded lambs one each night for 3 nights running. And yes only be-headed the rest of the body just lying there. He contracted with a local guy who provides ‘services’ in that regard basically he has a powerful gun with a scope lights etc. Two days ago my brother told me the ‘got’ one at 2AM so they are up all night or most of the night. J. (my brother) used to get up early but by then it was always too late so he decided to stay up all night and with the gunman around. The ‘technique’ that got him is they use a bright light and the fox looks in the direction of the light and sort of ‘freezes’ or long enough for the guy with the powerful gun and scope to kill him which he did.
So J. and me talking to him were sort of saying/hoping well that might be that then. Just got an email from him now saying they shot another one. So that tells me there was probably more killing/beheading of lambs and they had to go back to the drawing board. And they have now done in another one.There is something about all this I find ‘compelling’ in some way like the pure sort of ‘me or you’ involved in that only one can live the fox or the lamb but not both. And this is dealing with ‘real’ Nature not maybe some more ‘sentimental’ Nature we might read in books or have a sort wish list Nature. Not trying to advance any ‘theory’ about it actually I find it shocking and discouraging but there is also a certain ‘truth’ about it that seems worth talking about or describing. I suppose it connects somehow also with my concern about ‘lies’ or if we are basing things on stuff that is not ‘true’ the lie is always waiting to be exposed the things can’t ‘advance’ until it is. This gets mighty tricky of course like what is ‘truth’ and what is ‘lies’ and it seems these days at least it takes a lot of WORK unfortunately to tease out some of the differences.
Kind of on that subject I finally ‘broke down’ and started to read a big book about the Kennedy assassination. Well not really broke down I had this book given to me by someone I know about 6 months ago and was so ‘busy’ with other ones but now it feels very much like the right time to get into this. It’s called “Final Judgement” by a guy called Michael Collins Piper. It’s the right time also because I have become more familiar how ‘false flags’ or what are often called ‘conspiracies’ work and now it almost has a ‘familiar’ feeling about it. Not so ‘strange’ as those theories used to feel and not so strange also in that it seems to involve well the ‘usual suspects’………….
I’m so glad the time has changed and now with spring coming I can spend more time
outside after work. Work is still a problem however, because of the poor benefits and the conditions
for me there. It’s frustrating to have so few vacation and sick days. Actually, no sick days because calling in
sick results in vacation days used, not unusual, but there are just so few days to begin with.
This makes it difficult to plan trips and to attend the retreat which I would like to do again this summer.
Also, what I talked about in my last session was a reminder of what a trigger my working conditions are.
I work alone all day in a room by myself. People come in and out but there is no one working with
me, they are doing other things. So, there is pretty much no company.
Because of my history, this can feel a whole lot like punishment. In fact, sometimes it’s exactly
what it feels like.
It’s pretty much what I received
from my mother; she punished me, left me alone, and shut me out completely.
Even with all of that, there’s all the need to feel, of what I didn’t get, and the sadness
and grief. I go over and over this same stuff, getting a little deeper every time.
Oddly enough, sometimes it’s my own doing which has isolated myself from people,
by acting out.
Over this past weekend I did feel some of this, but ideally I should change my daily routine
to something better. I did spend a few minutes checking employment websites but it’s
discouraging. I see little hope there. I need to be careful not to change to something worse.
Of course, my job is only one reason why these feelings
will keep coming up. Other things are in play; there’s probably no job which will satisfy me.
The best one would pay OK, but most importantly give me enough time off to do things I
want to do.
The reason I’m in this predicament is a lot of decisions I made in the past. I changed jobs
so many times because of ambition, boredom, or poor working conditions. A lot of those jobs
were better than the one I have now. I made more money 20 years ago, had better
benefits and didn’t work alone either.
I wanted to move out of NYC when my youngest son was born. I don’t regret that
as I still think this was a better place for my kids. Also, I wanted more space; I was tired
of living in cramped conditions inside and outside in the city. Things don’t always turn out
right when I go with my impulses. I did have a whole lot of free time when I was unemployed.
That was so stressful I had some therapeutic breakthroughs; a life crisis can do that.
Also, it effected my career when I left jobs
that were cutting into family time. I don’t regret that either but it has been a constant
struggle to get things just right; I still don’t have it quite right.
Phil
> Phil,
> sounds like you have made a lot of efforts to keep a good balance between family life and work.
> it does not seem fair at all to my European mind you lose days off when you have some sick leave.
> so I hope you manage to find a better job in that respect, and also one with more gratifying social interactions.
> but all you can do is try to make the best of things and to look for other options, and that is what you are doing already.
> you can be proud of yourself, having worked hard and caring about your family and about being with them.
> that is one thing I deeply apreciate about my dad, he always worked hard, and when he did not he was home, still working a lot of the time, in the garden or the house, and we often went on little trips to the seaside or camping in the summers, great memories.
> those are values you must have passed on to your sons, even if they will become more aware of them while they grow older.
> M
Margaret,
I haven’t properly stated the degree of this problem. My job is so boring that I spend half my time on the internet with a laptop at work. When that seems too risky, then I’m on my cell phone.
On some days I will end up surfing to websites which end up accentuating my bad feelings.
I have to check and recheck myself at work because it is so tedious that it’s hard to keep my mind on it. This system of checks does work, but shouldn’t be necessary.
But it is true that there doesn’t feel like there’s much I can do about all this. This morning I am going to the gym before work; that feels much better than going straight to work. When I do get to work, things start very slowly there, it is just bad. I could get there at 12:00 or 1:00 PM and still complete what I need to do by 5:30.
I need something a lot more challenging with good benefits.
I’m sure I could do well with a lot of jobs but no one hires except resumes exactly fitting the the position. Also, there is little around here and I have a poor or nonexistent network of connections. Phil.
> two bad dreams last night.
> in the first one, at the end of some story I was in a huge ship that suddenly capsized, the part I was in remained half under water, about to go under completely in the water and the mud.
> i had a few moments only to try to escape, and of course I got stuck in some curtains knowing any moment could be my last and I had to try not to panic in order to get out.
> woke up panting and struggling wiht the sheets.
>
> next dream I was in a crowd, making my way out of it slowly, and suddenly this guy turns around. Instantly I know he is the
> boyfriend of a girl I had not been very niece to, at all, and I knew in his mind he had all the right to be extremely pissed at me.
> he cornered me against a wall, and I knew it was very bad news.
> then his fist struck my chest, and
> for one second i felt relief he was only going to beat me up, but the next second I realized myself, with horror, it was not only his fist but he had stuck a long thin knife upwards under my rib cage, and moved it to search for my heart.
> it was awful, I knew I was most likely about to die in the next moment, felt the knife inside of me, like a sharp stomach pain and moving up, and all I could do was moan and beg ‘please no no, please don’t!’
> I woke up panting even worse, heart racing, horrible..
>
> maybe it is good I face somehow these feelings of fear to be about to die, as far as I know my birth was difficult, so they may have their roots there, and this might be the only way at this point to get some access..
>
> otherwise things are not too bad, mom on half medication is more lively, though still confused some of the time, but generally a bit more up.
> some forms are lacking
> i need to send in order to get my new courses, and in the meantime am focusing on preparing for buying an i
> I-phone, which is more complicated for me as I have to use it only using Voice Over, and now also need to update my Address book on my laptop to be able to synchronize it with the phone.
> had lost, forgotten password for account, but that is solved and now will need to try and work out system to be able to use old cellphone for some more weeks while already using new smartphone for wi fi applications to learn how to handle it.
> sounds like not too hard, but believe me only using Voice Over it gets pretty complicated if you want to use it properly.
> but it is exciting at the same time.
>
> filling in my address book though with about 200 different e-mail adresses and phone numbers etc. is a tedious and long job, might need all week for it, as it is something you cannot do all day long.
> OK enough for now, this probably does not interest most of you too much, smiley.
> am reading the book about the guy that walked the rope, cable, between the Twin Towers.
> bye, M
Margaret, Wow those are terrible dreams. Why do you say that if they are birth related, this might be the only way to get access at this point?
Phil
> Phil,
> well, for me feelings like this, especially the fear ones, are hard to access while awake, and defenses are at play.
> apart from some moments, my acute fears tend to show their ugly faces mostly in my nightmares.
> also some dreams I had were more clearly related to birth stuff, but usually in a bit of a different scenario.
> to feel them while awake, there needs to be a safe environment, they need to be triggered, and then defenses are usually still interfering.
> so that is what I mean, at this stage, I feel I can be in touch with the more dissipated but ongoing feelings of fear, but actually I do not know if ever they will come up in the future other than in dreams.
> what matters most is they get felt and processed bit by bit..
> M
Margaret,
I see what you’re saying.
Phil
> again two interesting dreams last night.
> the first one was very scary, as often I was stuck on a very high ridge, people with me and some people down on the floor of what looked like a dirty grim destroyed factory.there seemed no way down but to jump, but it was more than seven meters to a hard concrete floor, and the promise of the guys downstairs to catch me was not very reassuring.
> sitting on the edge I became dizzy with fear, stepping a bit back it still looked impossible and extremely scary. but staying up there was no good option either.
> just before waking up I started thinking making the jump would be my only way out of there..
> a little after waking up the thought occurred to me we might make a rope of our clothes….
>
> in the next dream I was at Barry’s and Gretchen’s house, with a lot of other people there as well, Otto, you were there, and at some point my mother waved to me with a smile sitting on a sofa in another room.
> the atmosphere was so lively and warm, a lot went on and by the time I was about to leave it felt like a lot of good things had happened there for me.
> felt safe and welcome.
> M
> p.s. laying awake after the dreams thinking about them and still feeling some fear, I tried to imagine what in the present I was most afraid of.
> was it dying? not quite.
> was it being in danger? mmm, and then it struck me the worst to imagine for me is being stuck in a terrible and possibly lifethreatening situation.
> like imagine being robbed somehow from my cane, phone, purse and all my belongings, somewhere on a remote dark and cold dirty spot, a back alley or a deserted filthy area, feeling scared, cold, tired and not knowing anywhere to go or turn to, hardly seeing anything and not having my cane.
> writing it down rationally things to do to get out of the situation start coming up, just slowly moving, but descrbing like this does not serve well to paint the dark threat the feeling represents.
> it did occur to me being stuck in an extremely bad situation also has similarities with almost dying during birth..
>
> seems connected with the feelings of something bad going to happen and not feeling up to it, not feeling able to cope.
> M
Gretch, Barry, this seems like a good moment to ask if you have any new writings on the go? It would be much appreciated to have some fresh input 😉…..no pressure!!!
Jo: I know you were asking either Gretchen or Barry about new writings. I have written a do-it-yourself book for anyone interested in Primal. Art Janov read it and commented briefly;- “a good succinct and fine book” . I do not believe either Gretchen or Barry have read it or if they have have not commented on it to me. I offered it in e-copy to all the people on the Primal Support group for free. I also offer it for free to any on this group also for free if you or any others will give me an email address. It’s self published and goes without saying, is my ideas and opinion on Primal therapy. My email address is jackwaddington@yahoo.com
Jack
Jack, I have the tools I need for Primal ….Thanks for the offer though 😉
Jo: I didn’t doubt that. It’s just that I might have misunderstood you asking for more writings. No problem, and since I offered it for free I thought there was no harm in that. I too like to read more Primal writings and read Arts blog as soon as he puts it out there.
Jack
Hey Jack, me too. Just sent you an email requesting to read your book. Last one I read was by a fellow Australian: Gilbert Bates, entitled “Love Sex & Mental Health”. Gilbert was in Art Janov’s therapist training a couple of years ago.
By the way, can anyone tell me why, even though I check the boxes for both “Notify me of new comments via email.” & “Notify me of new posts via email.” I never receive notifications? I’m not sure but I think it may have something to do with the fact that at one stage I unsubscribed due to being overwhelmed by emails in general.
Erron
Erron: yes, I received your email and have replied with an attachment of the book in .PDF file format. You’ll need to download it to your computer giving a name (I suggest “Feeling Therapy”) and should be able to read it on screen. Not sure if you could print it without software to do that, but it’s 69 pages. I did a quick test and could only get the first 7 pages, but after sending it, I tried downloading the attachment and then opened it, and it seemed fine.
Any problems and I will send it again.
The matter of getting emails; I am not sure about, but Vicki might be able to help, or another alternative is to write to wordpress and get them to restore your emails from them. I think, though not absolutely sure http://www.wordpress.com. State you only want “Primal Institute” mails.
Just an afterthought; did you frill out the three boxes for email address, name and site, if you have one?
Jack
I should probably read more books or blogs on how to do therapy, because I always have felt I must be doing it wrong. But anytime I read that kind of literature, or hear about it from other primal-minded people, it only reinforces my feeling that I am doing it wrong. Or maybe I just feel I am doing life wrong. Yes, that is definitely true. Doing it wrong. No matter how many times the B’s tell me to trust myself. Anyway, I can’t really do PT right now. I am now too busy crying out my grief every Saturday in the B ‘s little room at the PI. I didn’t think I would cry again this week, but as I drove past the Westwood park on the way to the PI, I was reminded of my dead dog, and the sadness started coming up. Me and the 3 dogs had occasionally come for a walk to this park when it was too hot to walk in the Valley. Anyway, I kind of knew that I would most likely be crying about the dog, earlier in the week when I heard a long song that I listened to during the dog’s final months, holding him in my lap because he couldn’t stand to not be held. So I listened to the song today., and I was able to cry hard about the dog, seeing him in my head, seeing the places we spent together in those months. The backyard, where I started growing some vegetables for some reason. His small figure sitting on the bricks under the gigantic tree, looking up at me. The walks where I had to carry him because he didn’t walk too much anymore. Which led to me crying about the past 8 years since we got back from Tucson. My kids lived with us for a while when we got back here. The oldest was studying hard in college, then later moved up to Berkeley for college. The youngest had a job at a deli, and then later was going to cooking school. I used to sleep in the same bed with Z until her snoring got so horrible, and the dogs on the bed kept pushing me off the bed. So when the kids left, I now had a bed of my own. Now I miss sleeping with her, but I sleep better. I only have the one dachshund left that sleeps on the bed with me, and now the black cat has decided there is room for him on the bed as well. The early part of those 8 years seemed to be heading in the right direction. I went to group, did some buddying, went to some retreat in some summer ( I am trying to overcome some temporary amnesia about which summer it was), some listening to music at the Pico Institute. Then my buddy disappeared, the PI disappeared and re-appeared elsewhere, Z’s job disappeared, my happy caring boss disappeared and was replaced by an over-arching asshole. A lot of my work companions were promoted out of my workplace, and stuff just seemed to get worse. Anyay. Too many changes.Well, I could not really cry about JUST the last 8 years, I was on a roll. So then I was crying about early 2000’s, when we lived in Santa Monica. Kids were becoming drug addicts. Cats, dogs and fish dying. Craziness. As an aside, I think I realized yesterday that my entrenched depression, along with over-eating, has been a mainstay in keeping me out of psychosis-land all my life. I don’t think the dietician is going to understand that however, when I tell her I gained 12 pounds since the Christmas season. Anyway. Too many changes in my life. My job got moved to Tucson in 2005, away from the comfy job I had here in L.A. for many years. I became a meaningless nothing there at work, because bigwigs had taken over the work I used to do, so I really did not matter at all anymore. I lost good work companions, funny, caring people, who were smart enough to get jobs here, instead of going to Tucson. Well too many changes, and too many years slipping buy. No wonder I am so fucking dead. Ahead of schedule. Whipped around by life. And my crying continues, but I don’t know if I feel any better or not. Too many changes, and too many tears uncried still.
Otta: I get the feeling that many, as I have done, feel we might not be doing it right. My feeling is:- if you are crying as you stated, and know what you are crying about then you are doing something right.
One of the dynamics I feel about this therapy is that we each of us approach it and do it in out own unique way. I’m tempted to suggest that there is no right or wrong way, especially if you are able to express your feelings in you own good way. Things do seem not to progress, even though it seems at time that we are stuck. That to me suggest an old feeling.
Hope you didn’t mind my responding and I agree with Margaret … your comment are always touching.
Jack
Otto: Sorry; that was a typo in that last comment with your name . Sorry.
Jack
> Otto,
> your commment was very touching.
> i hope you will be at the summer retreat.
> M
Margaret, thanks for the caring comments, and me too about the retreat. Jack, thanks for the caring comments. WordPress email, i looked in google to see why my forwarding from this site never took place and i found out i was supposed to respond to wordpress, confirm i wanted the notify or not. I also could not find a button or menu for sending a NEW email. I got to say, everyone is so hot on gmail, and i say, more crap from out-touch programmers, same as the old crap. Bells and whistles that i don’t need.
Otta. yes i oughta be cleaning house, paying bills, cleaning the yard, installing the air conditioner, figuring out taxes. Or maybe somehow enjoying life. Fuck it. I figured out why the scanner’s network was not connecting, so now I can scan my W2’s. or 4’s. or whatever the fuck they are. whoopee.Otta be calling my brother who i have not talked to since last July. but i dont want to. took a walk with the dog around the lake. always good to see the ducks, geese and fartbirds enjoying their lives. And to see Sophie enjoying all the smells in the park, pee or gophers. Always good to drink that coffee first thing in the morning. Always good to hear the overjoyed roosters who are happy to have been abandoned at that park. Always good to see women walking around the lake, but I wish they were in their summer clothes, but if that were true, then summer would be upon us and it would be too hot to really enjoy walking.
> just turned the radio on this morning, and heard two big explosions just occurred in the departure area of Brussels Airport.
> a lot of damage, so probably a lot of victims.
> it is beyond words.
> very close to my own life, in it actually, more than any other event so far as that place represents a lot to me and I even fear people I know might be here or could have been there as the Easter holidays are about to start and friends are about to leave or some friends about to come back.
> so cruel, crazy, senseless atrocity, so sad so sad. makes me cry.
> M
> seems to have happened in front of the check in of American Airlines, don’t know how often I have been in line there myself..
> testimonies are heartbreaking.
> M
> I notice in myself how violence like this can trigger anger, and a feeling of being able to kill someone who does something like this. but that is far from what they do,I’d never jump to wanting to kill innocent fellow citizens of that person, just the person itself triggers a mixture of sadness and anger, and despair.
> more explosions seen to just have happened, elsewhere in Brussels, possibly train station and somewhere else in the political center.
> this is pure and destructive craziness going on, so much meaningless pain inflicted..
> was already aware of some ongoing feeling of anxiety in me, and of course this triggers extra sadness and hopeless feelings.
> still feel grounded though.
> M
> just called my brother who hadn’t heard yet and he turned on the news. while I told him about what happened to my own surprise I started crying, mentioning the victims.
> my brother and me have been at that check in desk so often together.
> he was sweet and supportive, it is so nice I can be vulnerable with him.
> M
Margaret, this was the first news I saw when I logged on my computer this morning. It’s so crazy. I hope the authorities can make things secure there. I can imagine the anxiety it causes. Phil
> it is horrible.
> one of the bombs had nails in it, and an explosion happened from low on the floor, so a lot of people got severe injuries at or even lost their legs.
> as far as I know now about 34 deaths and over a hundred injured, some of them very severely.
> some people filmed how they got away in the dark subway tunnels out of an exploded metro train, and you could hear tiny babies scream in agony.
> people breaking down while relating about what they saw, it is all affecting us very much here.
> crazy and cruel.
> the crying of that baby was so different of normal crying, a very high pitch sounding very bad really, if not physically emotionally so, an acute kind of overload..
> very sad very sad very sad
Margaret,
How terrible and very sad. And so random, to be in that airport on this particular day.
Very scary, what a world we live in. I worry about my kids who are young adults just
starting out in life.
Phil
Terrorist and terrorism … Yes!!!! without a doubt it is more than agonizing, but I feel we fail to see the varying types of terrorism promoted and engaged in with our own governments. Example: the military of any nation are paid killers; more often than not, of innocent women and children. The police are not much better, killing those they deem dangerous. Who decides????
Are the current terrorist that we in the West deem as such; an unintended condescension of our own attempt to impose OUR will on others??? It has it roots in all our religions, politics, cultures, national borders … yet we fail to see it. The old adage:- one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. If you have to fight for freedom (an oxymoron if ever there was one) we are perpetuating the process … on and on and on. Never ending, because, I feel, we don’t see the “wood for the trees”
Dare I bring it up again? … I will. Money, and all forms of exchange is where it all begins …, promoting greed and then criminality, to to get more for less; then laws to repress us even further and then halfwits (look no further than Donald Trump) to make those repressive laws; and so called democracy that is anything but democratic (government by the people). The people as a whole don’t govern … never did … the s/elected few do … the ones with the deepest pockets … the privileged few. It’s all a farce … a con game … and we all buy into it. It’s insidious … better known as “neurosis”.
Jack
Jack,I guess ISIS doesn’t want to follow our rules about what’s OK in war and terrorism. Phil
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:50:11 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I guess the US military doesn’t want to follow any rule, other than kicking in doors and killing anything that is alive without questioning who’s in there.
We, unwittingly, I feel, created ISIS (unintended consequences)
Jack
Jack,Apparently there were suicide bombers in the Brussels attack for which ISIS takes credit. The whole organization seems to be suicidal. I don’t thinkthey will end up holding any territory and the whole effort is crazy. So, thereis some difference, in that sense. What they are doing is much crazier than normal in this violent world. They will end up being stomped out, but that won’t prevent new groupsof terrorists from springing up with a similar message.Phil Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:20:17 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com
Phil: I feel I have a larger overview on it all. I somewhat agree on some of your points, but the real problem (bottom line) is neurosis. All else hinges on it. I equate it with Neurosis is one disease and all other ailments are merely a manifestation of that one disease.
In the same manner all the impending and subtending problems for us humans are hinged upon that one malady. Trying to MEND one of the underlying symptoms resolves naught IMO.
Jack
Jack, I agree that the bottom line is neurosis. But look at young people traveling from around the world to join ISIS. That is extreme neurosis it seems to me, it violates
the self survival instinct, which you would think is basic. Nor are those people doing anything for their loved ones; assuming they have any capacity for love at all, which
is doubtful.
Phil
Phil: Psycho analyzing ISIS terrorist is just as complex as psycho analyzing anyone joining any military It’s just another form of suicide.
Any Primal Therapist makes NO attempt to analyze their patients. I find it somewhat ludicrous making comparison of anyone setting out to kill any one else. I just don’t know and refuse to guess.
Jack
Phil – ‘crazy’ or not they are have been on the SAME side as the Governments of the US, UK etc for years now. And with the SAME goal it seems wreck a country that was functioning fairly well (Libya and later Syria) It always seems so absurd to see the like of David Cameron going on about ‘young people’ going to Syria but ignoring the fact they AND him have the SAME policy of knocking of the legitimate or at least the ONLY government they have Assad’s government. In that way our leaders are as criminal and as ‘crazy’ as ISIS which I take as mostly just being a CIA/MI5/Mossad created entity anyway. They even ‘lure’ young people to go there with slick websites etc……………programming done probably by Western Intelligence. To me there is a Devilish agenda at work here and it has a lot to do with creating a “Greater Israel” on the one hand a mostly ruined world on the real hand…………….
” The old adage:- one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”
Jack, sorry but that’s bullshit. Freedom fighters fight back against repression; terrorists just plain repress, or murder. Freedom fighters (my definition, I grant) have no choice but to fight for their lives; terrorists kill because they get some sick thrill from it.
Erron: I’m not sure I totally agree but I do see your point. The very best that could be attributed to them is that it is A HUGE GROSS ACT-OUT.
I personally would never attempt to analyze their motive, but I do feel they are trying to send us a message … insidious as it is.
Jack
Correction: Second paragraph, first sentence:- “unintended condescension” should have read:- “unintended consequences”.
Jack
Something about all this makes me ‘suspicious’………….so ISIS has claimed ‘credit’, some people have said ISIS stands for “Israeli Surveillance and Infiltration Services”………….maybe or maybe not certainly so called ISIS never says boo to Israel let alone ‘doing’; anything, instead they attack secular Arab governments like Qaddafi in Libya or now Assad in Syria. They seems like a typical Western/Israeli creation like so called Al Queda. Could well be a ‘false flag’ as these events are sometimes called. Not that this is of any consolation to victims there if indeed there are victims.
Isn’t the Mossad motto (or was means it still is) “By deception we shall make war” I think it is worth keeping that in mind if someone were to tell you right out in front they make war and get their way by deception. I mean they are telling us……………….but of course it’s human nature not to be so ‘suspicious’ well count me as someone who IS ‘suspicious’ we have so much of this already. Start with one big lie and build and build some more on that and people will not know if they are coming or going. Which could describe the people of Europe right now. Stuff them with ‘refugees’ and by their own ‘political correctness’ they can’t or won’t object and then hit them with ‘terror events’ so what are people supposed to do or think. They don’t know what to do or think. Neither do the Arabs chased out of their own countries and get to a place where people fear and hate them. So both sides are screwed……………….meanwhile poor little Israel is off somewhere minding their own business…………….NOT!
Daniel – I wonder if you know what ‘director’ made that, who is the actor and WHEN was it made? What WAR was being fomented by this piece of nonsense. Then we might be getting somewhere
Lol!
Margaret,
I am thinking of you every minute – and feel so sorry you have to deal with this horrendous horror so close to you, your family, friends and fellow Belgians.
It is so scary and can happen anywhere, anytime…
Glad to hear you could release and find comfort with your brother.
love,
L
Thinking of you too, Margaret. Turned on the TV late last night and saw all the police at the Brussels airport at morning there.. The whole country must be stunned. Just horrible. Take care.
S
To me there is a kind of ‘un-reality’ about this business in Brussels. Also a feeling of ‘repetition’ as in do it early in the morning as was 9/11, 7/7 in London, Madrid etc that way the ‘story’ is set in place early the same day and then virtually nobody says any different.Then it’s just endlessly repeated do we see anything NEW on TV about it I don’t. Just looping around and around always saying the same thing. Do we even see ‘real dead bodies’ I have not. Also hit several places at once as was New York, London, Madrid etc This seems ‘weird’ to me if some hard pressed ‘Muslims’ could pull off that. I having grown up in Ireland in the ’60’s and ’70’s remember if the IRA did a bombing it was always in ONE place. This thing of multiple places seems contrived, first off it is hard to do not hard if it is the ‘authorities’ of course. It seems done to cause maximum effect also even picking the airport and a train station near the EU buildings again like a propagandist thing to scare everybody and create this huge effect.I don’t know of course but as I said I am very suspicious and will see what some ‘smart’ people like Kollerstrom, Kevin Barrett, Ole Dammagaard etc have to say about it. I do not ‘trust’ this story at all……………
Gee I wonder what that smarty Kollerstrom thinks? Hey maybe this time he will say ” no conspiracy here! ” . Whatever he thinks I’m sure it’s exactly what you think. How nice of those Isis guys to step up and take the blame for the Jews for all those terroist attacks! Who would have thought they would be so generous in between beheadings ! Lol!
Yea, Kolostrum will tell us what to think or some other smart guy
No I don’t think it is correct to say I will just ‘think’ what he ‘thinks’. But I DO find it off and I wonder does anyone else………………….like now on the so called “News” do we or will we see anymore of where this ‘bomb’ went off. Like will we ever see like the place it went off, or did it damage a train anything, something about it AFTERWARDS. Or is it all a ‘creation’ to scare people and convince them they are surrounded at all times by ‘dangerous Muslims’ Meanwhile train them and make them feel ‘guilty’ if they even harbor any bad thoughts about these same ‘muslims’. It just seems like what is called maybe cheaply a “psy-op” or a ‘psychological operation’ on the people. I admit I could be off base with this but I doubt it very much actually. Like if this even ‘really happened’ now let’s see the hole the bomb made or whatever, something, anything but this endless repeating of a story……………and a story that makes little or no sense from any typical ‘crime’ or even ‘terrorism’ point of view. Like what is the ‘motive’ did they have the ‘means’ and what is ‘achieved’ by all this. The ‘suspects’ I am pointing to on the other hand have all 3 means, motives and effects.
To come back to my own limited experience of anything like that.when the IRA set off a bomb it was always in ONE place, it was clear enough they had the means and the support of the people to do it and it was fairly clear what they wanted to achieve drive the British out of Ireland. Here on the other hand we seem to be dealing with some kind of 1984 (the book) type ‘psychological operation’……………….maybe I am just being ‘old fashioned’ or ‘living in the past’ but I refuse to abandon my ‘common sense’ all together………….
> before I start reading all the comments, about 15 or so this morning, a latest update.
> it could still have been much worse.
> afterwards a tip came from a taxi driver, who put 2 and 2 together.
> he had had to pick up 3 men early morning at their house to go to the airport , and they were very angry the taxi was not larger, as they had 5 suitcases and only 3 fit in into the trunk of the taxi. so they finally left two suitcases, (filled with explosives), at home.
> he also remembered they had not allowed to help him to lift out the suitcases of the trunk upon arrival.
> his information helped the investigators to go to the house and find another bomb filled with schrapnels and the two suitcases full of explosives.
> so if those would have made it to the airport the devastation would still have been worse..
> it is all painful and sad, that is all I can say about it at this point.
> M
> Leslie and Sylvia,
> thanks so much for your words.
> up to reading your comments I was starting to feel very lonely, needing and feeling forgotten and overlooked, no attention for my feelings and needs.
> except for Phil who has also adressed me.
> I know mine is only a small need in the huge amount of pain here, but still, it hurts.
> and Patrick, you are so crazy and sick, I can assure you there are plenty of loose body parts and dangling intestines here, as one of our government memebers revealed after visiting the subway, before he could stop himself, visibly still shocked with what he had seen.
> it feels of bad taste to write this, but all what happened was of bad taste anyway.
> Gretchen, I was not gonna say it, but your lol did hurt, even if it was probably completely in place towards what Daniel posted. I could not detect at all what it was, but something worthwhile judging by Patricks response.
> I know I am in a feeling here, feeling my need does not matter, and I know the feeling makes me see things out of proportion.
> still feel I should try to be as honest as possible about my feelings, as to detect where they come from.
> see me, hear me, pay attention to me please, feel like crying right now.
> so sad.
> M
> Daniel,
> what was it you posted?
> can’t see it, remember, but am very curious..
> M
Hi M,
It’s a YouTube clip from the movie “The Great Dictator”. It’s a scene where Charlie Chaplin, as the dictator Adenoid Hynkel, makes a speech and refers, in Gibberish, to the Jewish people. It is a satire of course. And by the way, I don’t think it was Gretchen who commented “lol”, but Anonymous.
I was saddened to hear of that terror attack in Brussels, and I hope things will come back to normal as soon as possible. Life will go on.
Take care.
And here’s the link to the video:
https://goo.gl/gFfRC0
Listening to it you’ll get the idea.
> Gretchen,
> I feel ike adding something to my former comment.
> I guess I do feel somewhat embarrassed, about what I wrote, it seems clear there are old feelings of anger linked to the feeling of not getting my needs met.
> it is a difficult feeling to try to process, if I would keep it all in resentment would start building up, which I do not want.
> if I express it on the one hand I sabotage getting what I need somehow, as it is getting genuine interest and attention I neeed, and asking for it includes the risk of coming across as demanding or utting pressure on or acting out in some way.
> so I am aware of all of that, but have tried for so long to be ‘the good girl’, waiting for my turn, sitting with the feeling etc.,and it seems about time to drop all kind of fronts and be outspoken about what I feel a need for, embarassing or not.
> if I need to feel childish and ridiculous so be it, i do not want to waste more time.
> if I feel desperate that is how it is, no hiding or concealing anymore.
> it feels good to write this down, it seems to clear up some things for me.
> so my main goal is expressing myself, not so much getting something from you, as it would never be enough anyway as long as the feeling is not dealt with.
> have to allow it though, and this seems the way for me at this point.
> embarassing as it is, smiley..
> M
Margaret: Wow … that was great as I read it Margaret. Keep it up. and to me is anything but embarrassing.
Jack
> Patrick,
> what you call your common sense, ha, well, no comment.
> there are plenty of pictures and privately made recordings of the completely devastated metro train wreck, and of people trying to find their way out of the tunnels.
> i did mention almost rightaway how specially the screaming of a baby was affecting me in those recordings, but hey, you have a very selective way of gathering and ‘processing’ information.
> delude yourself all you want, but you made your crazy points over and over and sound like a very bad and cracked record by now.
> M
> Daniel,
> thanks!
> i have seen that movie a number of times when my eyesight was still ok, and I specially remember him playing around with the globe, which was kind of an inflated balloon.
> a bit like Patricks head sometimes, haha, sorry, but hey, there is crazy and too crazy and full of oneself..
> it feels disrespectful to the victims and their loved ones he doubts the reality of this event, jumping to conclusions from scratch and his own delusions.
> plenty of live and privately taken footing to go around, easy to find with a minimal effort, but still he needs to show off here with his ‘views and opinions’.
> pathetic.
> M
Margaret – it is not my intention to be ‘dis-respectful’ and first off of course I don’t actually know what happened. Also the fact there are real victims (if indeed there are) is not the only point or even the main point. IF this is some Mossad/CIA type ‘event’ it is of course totally possible we might say even likely there are real deaths.I would say there was real death on 9/11 but still leaves un-answered who did it and why? But it seems the trend is away from ‘real deaths’ towards you might say ‘staged’ Hollywood type fake events. What is this one who knows? But the fact is and I think I can say this for sure we will see no unbiased type media ‘investigation’ of this. We won’t see any meaningful ‘follow up’ where proper journalists can go in there and ask real questions. It seems it is already going down some rabbit hole of memory and whether it is a ‘memory’ of a real event or a fake staged event does not seem to matter. We have all had our little moment of horror……………..wait for the next one…………..
This is such a lovely ‘pop song’ or rather a bit of one. I wish I could find the whole song and who did it………………it could be a No 1 hit record as we used to say in the old days and it is connected to these ‘events’ in Brussels. “Truth is stranger than fiction/when it get’s too hot in your kitchen” Margaret maybe keep that in mind…………….
> Patrick,
> the only phrase that made sense in your comment was ‘I don’t really know what happened’
> and you clearly do not know either how our journalists here are right on top of things all the time.
> little does it interest you probably to find out as only your mental constructions need to be put forward.
> M
Margaret,
Can only imagine how something like this would shake you to your very core and bring agony on every level. Trying to make sense of such senseless, horrendous crimes is not possible as you know – but its all we have to take in what has happened…
Please take good care of yourself. Do not listen to Patrick’s insensitive crap.
I hope you can write whatever you need to at any given time and know we are listening.
ox L
> Leslie,
> thanks.
> the video recording someone made, possibly with a phone, of the people in the dark tunnel trying to make their way out to the light, heavy breathing, and overall the timy baby screaming in a very disturbing way, on and on, is what I can best describe as ‘hellish’.
> big men breaking down in tears while relating what they saw, that too is very moving, specially as they often start off in a kind of detached way, to then suddenly become emotional at certain details.
> I have noticed it myself talking to some people how only upon talking about it emotion suddenly rise to the surface, the reality of it striking painfully so.
>
> and all the theorizing about what kind of persons do such a thing, there seem to be various kinds so far, a lot of them simply young people already into crime like the two brothers who blew themselves up yesterday.
> a laptop was found in the trashcan with a setup of the last words of one of them, saying he was at the end of his rope with being wanted by Interpol, not because of terrorism by the way, but because he had done several violent robberies, carjackings and took shots at policemen.
> he had been put in jail after a sentence of ten years, was released on conditions after not even five years for some reason, but relapsed into crime.
> his brother too had been jailed for carjackings etcetera, and had served his prison sentence of about five years.
> so is it religious belief in these cases that drives them to these acts? hard to believe, but well, we all know people can delude themselves big time, don’t we?
> others of the IS ‘warriors’ known were young people drinking and smoking and doing al kinds of things before they took off to Syria.
> Religion? again hard to believe, but who knows, maybe it is for them something to latch onto, or just more self destructive behavior.
> some of them are probably genuinely convinced of what they stand for, but a lot of them seem to be kind of loose missiles used by manipulators we know too little about.
> there is a lot of money supporting IS and big interests might be playing here, using the young people they can find and seduce for their own goals.
>
> then there are the indeed religious fanatics, sent out as imams all over Europe to spread their ideas, and to convince young people to go and join the fight.
>
> it is complicated, but here a lot of Muslim people now speak up, are opposed, as really their own family could have been a victim as well, and for some sadly enough that is the case.
>
> so my point being, often it has nothing or little to do with what goes on in the middle East, although that can become part of a motivation at some point.
>
> it seems to be a mix of neurosis and manipulation and somewhat wild young adventurous kids going for what they get hooked into.
> some of them back off just before the actual bombing, but then they have to keep hiding for IS as they are in danger of being executed themselves.
> it is all sad and crazy.
> M
This is Kollerstrom’s first words on Brussels. People can judge for themselves but the fact they are ‘blown up’ is convenient and very typical. Dead men don’t talk much like Lee Harvey Oswald was not allowed to talk, killed by one Jack Rubenstein (yes that was his real name and he was Jewish)
“The day after the event, newspapers were featuring the two suspects: the brothers Khalid and Ibrahim El Bakraoui. Conveniently they were suicide bombers so no-one can question them. A blurry photo of the two of them pushing trolleys in the airport was shown. They had no hint of guns or suicide belt .. but wait, they might have had one glove on their left hands? Maybe this had a secret switch somewhere, for detonating some unseen bomb? They would have to be quite large for all the damage they caused. And if they were photographed together, pushing trolleys, how come one blew up the airport and the other, the Metro?
A few days earlier, on 16th, “these two were were reportedly detained according to the media when one of the brothers showed up at a hospital with a broken leg. The other brother was found hiding in a house police were searching. The two brothers were known to have links to violent crime in the Brussels area.” The patsies are normally known to the authorities.
We are now being told that these two are suicide bombers – the newspapers all carry a picture of the two of them in the airport, carrying no weapons, with no ‘suicide vest’ – but pushing trolleys! Why, who could doubt their lethal intent? These are the patsies.
An Israeli minister has gently linked the terror to criticism of Israel: “ Science, Technology and Space Minister Ofir Akunis drew a connection on Tuesday between the deadly attacks in Brussels and Europe’s frequent condemnations of Israeli policies, which he suggested diverted attention away from cracking down on Islamist terrorist cells growing in its midst. In a post on his Facebook page, Akunis, of the Likud party, sends condolences to Belgium and wishes the wounded a speedy recovery. He then writes how ”many in Europe have preferred to deal foolishly with condemning Israel, labeling (settlement) products and boycotts.” (Source: Aangrifan)
The Belgian authorities have told the media to halt all reporting on the investigation into the bombings, “so as not to harm the inquiry”.
If, as you keep repeatedly stating, there are SO many conspiracies afloat; how come some insider whistle blower isn’t blowing the cover?????
Your pals are not, as far as I know, insiders … but outsider hoping to look in.
Jack
Jack – the question of why insiders don’t blow a whistle is a good one and I suppose one of the main problems with so called ‘conspiracy theories’……………..but I do believe it is understandable or can be explained. It would be rather long to go into it here and I have the feeling I have already worn out my welcome so to speak. In any case the way I see it the fact is it MUST be ‘explainable’ as it DOES seem to be happening. Do YOU have any ‘opinion’ or ‘take’ on the bloody hand in that picture?
Haven’t yet looked at the picture but will, after sending this response to you.
There is not one of the conspiracies you mentioned that I see, would not require an enormous amount of people to put it into effect. The prospects of 100% of them not willing to blow the whistle is way, way beyond what I know about groups, especially a group attempting to deceive the mass of the people.
Even in the most restricted of dictatorships that was not feasible and dissenters abound. A program on PBS the other night demonstrated the even Hitler did not achieve that.
One last question:- What is it to you to promote much of this stuff???? particularly in view of the fact that there seems not even one person siding with you. Quote:- “It seems you have a bee in your bonnet”.
Jack
Quote:- “Do YOU have any ‘opinion’ or ‘take’ on the bloody hand in that picture?”. No! and your explanation tells me you know little about peoples re=actions in times of crisis.
Jack
I guess it’s a bit too ‘real life’ for you it seems you always prefer to stay in the world of ‘ideology’ head trips ironically enough. After all all your diatribes against ‘head trips’ MUST be about yourself…………………what we ‘hate’ the most is something in ourselves that is true of me speaking for myself………
Margaret – you might dwell on that last line…………….so much for your ‘free’ newspapers over there about as ‘free’ as your historians. Very very convenient.
Where is your human kindness. A once-friend goes thru a very shocking time and your ideas are more important than giving comfort and recognizing a situation that would be devastating to any of us to have experienced.
Margaret,
I hope you will disregard and pay no attention to what Patrick says,
but still let us know what is going on with you
Such a shocking, terrible, and very sad situation in Belgium,
Thinking of you,
Phil
Sylvia – I would say we all have different things to contribute and while she has you and Leslie for ‘support’ and ’emoting’ I think that’s covered. After all I have even thought it might make Margaret feel a bit better to know or suspect this has nothing to do with ordinary people in Brussels. It is very pointedly aimed at the EU and their politicians it is meant to send a message as it does to all European politicians. The subway stop that was hit is apparently where the politicians get off the train to go to the EU Parliament A very “Mossad” type of move that and maximum bang for their buck so to speak. Either the politicians will believe it’s “Muslims” in which case job done or some may suspect the Mossad in which case the job is still done…………..the clear intimidation make it’s point loud and clear and these guys would not want this happening in their own countries.
I am sorry if I am writing too much about this but a friend (yes I have some of those in case anyone is worried lol) just pointed about this picture (link below) that is supposedly ’emblematic’ of the whole event. My friend pointed out something which much more likely makes it ’emblematic’ of a ‘false flag’. Look at the woman on the left of the picture and look at her right hand. Is that blood? It’s supposed to be but is it? I don’t think so how come all her fingers are bathed in it, what ‘wound’ could have caused that? This is typical of these kinds of operations if you know what to look for. Guru I would be very interested in your take on this as one of the few/only ‘free thinkers’ on this blog. And don’t worry that you might be seen in any way ‘allied’ to me, stop worrying about your ‘strictly neutral’ stance for once and you are NOT ‘allied’ to me in any way just say you don’t even like me lol…………….
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/23/the-photograph-that-has-come-to-define-horrors-of-brussels-attacks
Your thinking is indeed free. Free from reason, decency, common sense, compassion, reality, care, logic, generosity, civility, accuracy, intellectual curiosity, trust, integrity, sense of right and wrong, and the understanding of the motivations of people, societies, countries, civilizations, and especially yourself.
Daniel – fine that’s your OPINION or FEELING as the ‘language’ of here……………..but you say nothing about the ‘bloody hand’ in the picture……………any particular reason for that
OMG I just saw something else in that picture. Make the picture ‘full screen’ there is 2 diagonal arrows over the left on the bottom of the picture then ‘wait’ for the ‘time bar’ on the bottom of the screen to dissapear (this is important) and you will see some kind of ‘container’ with a ‘red opening’ like a place for her to stick her hand to get all the ‘blood’ over it it looks the same color……………..did I ‘crack’ this bullshit all by myself that is hard to believe but I am pretty sure bullshit it is.
BTW Margaret you have no need to see this to deny or invalidate your stories. It may well be there are real deaths and suffering here……………..hey a Mossad bomb hurts and kills just as much as an “Islamic” bomb some would say even more or maybe a lot more…………
> I can’t believe how much wrong ‘facts’ your precious Collarstrong or whatever his name is, is throwing together there.
> he is wrong about the pictures, wrong about the fact no weapons were found, wrong about the press being shut up, that was only briefly asked to them, while the house was being entered and searched, they were asked not to mention the address…
> no bomb belts, well, no just a suitcase filled with fifteen kilos of explosives, while two more suitcases had to remain at home as they were not fitting into the taxi.
> they had ordered a big one, but not big enough, and there was an argument about it with the taxi driver.
> but they were under time pressure, the attacks were originally planned for monday, but as one person was caught alive they feared they would be arrested.
> and more wrong and distorted quotes and facts I am not going into. anyone wanting to read details about what happened, just check our Belgian news, it is all there in detail, a lot of detail from all kind of angles with all kind of testimonies and pictures.
> this is actually a clear example of collarstrongs desinformation and distortion of facts.
>
> just more worthless crap of a sick mind.
> and a lesson to check your facts Patrick, and not take his word for truth, this is really full of plain bullshit.
> believe me, I have been following all the news here for the last two days, step to step.
> a big wrong fact for example? the picture of the guys in the airport only contains one of the brothers, the other one being on his way to the subway.
> the names of the two other guys are there to be found in our (very good) media.
> a good test if you prefer to stick to your guru or really want to find out the true facts.
> about 250 people injured by now.
> probably all just figuring in the big deception, part of the big conspiracy.
> boy this is irritatingly stupid.
> M
Sorry, this comment went in wrong and I’m re-posting it.
Margaret,
I hope you will disregard and pay no attention to what Patrick says,
but still let us know what is going on with you
Such a shocking, terrible, and very sad situation in Belgium,
Thinking of you,
Phil
Also the ‘look’ of that woman with the ‘bloody hand’ has well that ‘feel’ about her…………………….what’s called a ‘crises actor’ in the trade, probably calling her ‘agent’ or her ‘handler’ saying ‘job done, what’s next for me’. Note also the supremely ‘unconcerned’ look I have seen that before in Paris and other places too. But I think it is more worthwhile to really think can blood or a ‘wound’ look like that. I don’t think so.
> thanks Phil,
> well, a last thing I do want to say about Patrick especially after these last insane comments is he is really insane.
> no other word for it.
> utterly nuts.
>
> it does affect me to some degree but I have better things to do than to pay attention to his crap.
> watching a program now with interviews with doctors and other testimonies.
> everyone very emotionally involved and there is a kind of beauty emerging now in the solidarity and emotional vulnerability people dare to show.
> there is a kind of bonding going on between many groups and individuals as everyone could easily have been affected by loved ones being hurt.
> M
Margaret,
I am in agreement about Patrick; a free thinker, but his thoughts seem to come mostly from Kolostrum. and other free thinkers. So free, that reality seems to be no hindrance.
That’s a good thing that people are coming together in grief and expressing themselves.
Phil
> still some of the impact keeps seeping in. one of the first identified victims was a woman originally of Nicaragua, or Peru, sorry, forgot. my point being is she was there with her husband, a Belgian man, and her two kids. they were standing at a distance, so now she is suddenly dead and they have to deal with that.
> that must be so awful, imagine the dad, what must he say, imagine the kids,how will they have to cope?
> and many many more stories..
> also those poor people having lost their legs keep coming to my mind. a lot of burn injuries too, head injuries as the ceiling came down, a lot of deep severe cuts due to all the glass flying around, and the nails and other pieces of iron deliberately added to the explosives.
> several small children between the severely wounded.
> most of the dead victims not yet identified, must be a horrible job to do.
> other people obviously are very affected by that screaming of the small child too, it is regularly bradcasted in various programs, as it is so telling of the sheer horror and insanity of such an event.
> at the same time a lot of beauty as well in how people even right then and there helped others, on some occasions.
> there is a lot to feel proud of too, people connecting, offering help, shelter, support.
> M
Patrick , I worked numerous times in an emergency room and have seen hands that look exactly like that. There are several scenarios but what looks familiar to me would be something similar to someone holding a profusely bleeding limb while comforting the victim. Also looking unconcerned is typical of those in shock. I think at least part of the reaction you are receiving has to do with the fact that you heard about this horribly tragic situation and immediately decided you knew what had occurred. It comes across as though whatever the majority opinion is you will most certainly decide everyone is deluded but you. You make these pronouncements with no evidence as though it is truth ( something I noticed about Kollerstrom as well in his videos and I would have thought you might pick up on). The other thing that struck me was that your agenda comes long before your theories in my opinion. It seems the most important thing is making your hatred, envy, paranoia of Jews somehow make sense. I don’t know if you are trying to convince us or yourself. You also don’t sense the moment … That Margaret is in an extremely scary and painful situation. Maybe not the moment to discuss conspiracy theories. You know where all these conspiracies fall apart? In the number of people who would need to keep a secret. To me that’s clear. Gretchen
That’s interesting Gretchen – I mean your ‘interpretation’ about the picture. You may have a point but I would like to hear what others may think. Somehow what you say does not sound quite right………….if she had been holding a limb wouldn’t you think the ‘blood’ would be on her clothes sleeves etc. Also what strike me is how EVEN the ‘blood’ is it’s not it seems from ‘holding’ anything it’s like to me at least she dipped her whole hand (all her fingers are evenly stained) in a bucket of ‘blood’ well to LOOK ‘bloody’. Also if her hand was bloody from ‘holding’ something why does she not then hold her phone in her ‘clean’ hand. Also I don’t think it really LOOKS like blood I have seen pictures of the Paris ‘event’ and the same ‘stuff’ there on the clothes etc…………..not blood I don’t think.We could go on and on of course about all this and maybe in the end it is not so interesting.I really am curious about Guru’s take he is a smart cookie but such a ‘coward’ also he hesitates to be ‘associated’ with me I find him to be so ‘lame’ in that aspect but he is a cool guy I actually like him really. And anyone else’s take I would be interested. I am sure there will be more about all this once Kollerstrom et al get their act together on it this is something I just happened to see in the Guardian today. Also I am interested in Jack’s take he is not a ‘stupid’ guy either but has his own issues in relation to me.
Gretchen – thanks for all the rest you say but I will not touch it now. It can only lead to repetition of positions but thanks though for taking the time I mean that sincerely.You could be an example to the ‘ignore ers’ if only they had the wits to learn from you.
Quote:- “I really am curious about Guru’s take he is a smart cookie but such a ‘coward’. ” Seems to me the only person who’ll give you ANY consideration is Guru. As I see you, not without cause.
And yet another quote: “You could be an example to the ‘ignore ers’ if only they had the wits to learn from you”. If there is anyone that incessantly avoids questions put to him it’s you. I’ve asked many, but you wittingly ignore them. I’ll ask again:- what is all this conspiracy TO YOU. I suspect there’s some old feeling/s rattling there inside, (which diets and exercise won’t resolve) but as you said to Leslie Pam “What’s the point” It might be a good idea if you could just for more than two seconds contemplate the whole of, first your seeming NEED to write here and further what appears to me, for you to be the one above it all … sort of a messiah figure.
Patrick, just as you spent many years being associated with me and thus know a lot about me (and chose to publish a lot of it), I also know a lot about you. Your conduct running Gentle Giant was not all you’ve cracked it up to be. Granted that you had a great talent creating along with Rick the company, and are a great salesman and had a knack for employing people who were useful to the company. The rest was not so pleasant. Those that are bullied tend (as happened with me especially towards my younger brother) to bully others. As I see it, the ones we needed to rile against … we couldn’t … so we chose those we could bully, and get away with it. What a cruel irony!!!!
Think again … for your own sanity, that appears to me. to be on the blink. What, deep down, are you trying to say … and to whom??????
For me: I’m trying to tell my daddy. He hurt me, and so badly, and at the time I sort of couldn’t quite say that. It doesn’t mend the past, but it goes a long way to elevating the reverberations running around inside me. To re-iterate Arthur Janov:- “we need to feel being so UNLOVED, before we can even begin to get a modicum of it in the present. What a PARADOX !!!!!
Jack
This is kind of an interesting ‘rant’ by a young English guy. He does miss one key actor though imho………….
This is being called “the iconic photo of a Brussels Airport attack victim”. There is story posted on the taking of this photo. Nothing is mentioned about the woman on the phone. The focus is on the other victim in the yellow jacket with blood on her face. To me it all looks appropriate to the moments right after such an attack. What makes the blood on the hand appear fake?
To me it takes incredible cynicism, mistrust, and craziness to think that this attack was staged or part of a conspiracy.
I have been injured myself in a minor accident and have been unaware of blood. A small cut
on the head or face can produce a lot of blood.
The media sometimes mismatches photos with stories by picking out file photos. They want to match the facial expressions in the photo with the story headline. I think this is commonly done.
Even if this photo was staged, so what? That doesn’t reveal some hidden plot or conspiracy.
Phil
> I feel sickened by the crazy crap going on and on here.
Well, why only two different thoughts, and not 3 or 5 or 25? Why not the Namibians? The Congolese? The French? The Rumanians? The Irish? Why not the Martians? Let’s all keep an open mind, so open we can ignore the obvious. Does it look like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck? So it must not be a duck but, as Gretchen pointed out, some sort of a Jewish and/or Israeli conspiracy.
Here is the result of this kind of “open” mind: When I heard of what happened in Brussels I already knew what you’re going to write, as I’m sure everybody else on the blog did. And you didn’t fail to deliver.
> Larry,
> are you ok?
> it has been a while since we heard you..
> M
> Jack,
> you made a lot of very good points there.
> M
Margaret. Hope you aren’t too disconcerted by a microcosm of craziness here. And I think it’s sort of an invalidation of feelings with this bandying of ideas (of who was responsible) irrelevant to the trauma. Seems odd that this occurs on a feeling website where we want to deal with our past and current pains to heal.
But I think the whole world is feeling this pain of lives lost. There’s more sympathy than indifference. Do take care.
Also Jack, I think it’s true and agree that we have to feel the original unlove before we are able to finally give love out to others.
S
Quote:- “Margaret – not sure why you find it ‘crazy’.” f you were to understand Primal Theory is obvious that that is Margaret’s s feeling. Who are you to question her feeling???? Just read it, and if you are able, absorb it, and leave it at that.
Seems you need to question EVERYTHING. Fine; if that’s what’s going on with you, but stop being such an irritant to others.
t seems to me you are ‘Automatic Pilot’.
Jack
It seems to me that nothing is going to change here with Patrick. What’s puzzling to me is why he thinks this website is a good place to promote conspiracy theories. Why try to convince us over and over on these points? We aren’t going to wake up and be converted overnight, it should be realized by now, so it’s a hopeless effort.
I know that If I get engaged with something similar, unnecessarily, that’s a sure sign of some old feelings involved. What I mean, there is no necessity of convincing us on conspiracies. What would that do?
Phil
> more heartbreaking amateur pictures, taken with a phone.
> a taxi driver enters the entrance hall of the airport right after the blasts, searching for his son who words there in a bistro.
> there is plenty of rubble, small fires and a lot of screaming. then he finds a wailing baby next to his dead mother. he wants to pick it up but the policeman nearby asks him to leave the child with its mom for the moment as it will be easier for the identification.
> so the child remains there, still crying while the taxi driver moves on, running into an elderly woman and asking her if she is ok. finally he reaches the bistro, calling out for his son, but there is noone ther. later on he finds his son outside.
> M
> Sylvia,
> yeah…
> M
> Phil,
> it seems clear the only person Patrick cares about is himself.
>
> more and more I tend to think his only goal is the attention he keeps getting, which he probably does not get anywhere else at all.
> M
> for example his theory about the woman having dipped her hand in red paint, there in the middle of the chaos, as part of the conspiracy, is so ridiculous he must consider us all as idiots if he thinks we’d take that kind of bullshit serious for one split second, or if he does really think so, he is really losing his marbles big time.
> close to paranoia and psychosis, or just a big phony acting out so much for attention he is falling into his own trap and losing more and more touch with reality.
> or maybe his diabetes has caused necrosis of some veins in his brain, who will tell.
> crazy and mean, and utterly dishonest, ignoring anything that pinches his theories and so called bright ideas and ‘truths’.
> the local town idiot more and more so, always the same insane crap over and over, senseless and pointless.
> best to ignore him or someone give him a cookie.
> M
Hi Margaret. Ever since the bombings, I’ve been intending to write here but have been consumed by other priorities, or am just too tired.
Such horrible, cruel acts of maiming and death, happening in your home city, made me fear for you and how shocked and afraid you might feel. But you seem to be coping OK. I am upset and surprised, even after all these years of getting to know him, how detached Patrick is from the feeling reality of the bombings. For me, his reactions are the sign of a disturbed person.
Because my health issue hasn’t resolved, I am now seeing a rheumatologist. A positive outcome is that he’s ruled out cancer as the cause of my symptoms. I’m not in good health, and I am worried. He’s narrowed down the cause to a couple of possibilities, and doing more blood tests. The good thing is he says the remaining possibilities are treatable.
On the up side, I bought a new car last week. It is actually a very emotional change for me. In 44 years I’ve owned 4 vehicles, all manual transmission, fuel efficient, compact Japanese cars. My first car got me all the way to LA. Noreen and I and friends went hiking / camping with it. She’s been in all of my cars. But there will be no memories of her with me in this new one.
My new car is a step up from all the others I’ve owned. It is a sedan, a mid-size car. It has lots of cargo and passenger space. It has a bigger engine and more power than anything I’ve owned. Yet it is more fuel efficient than my other cars were. It has a continuous variable transmission, ie. it is essentially and automatic. It is more relaxing to drive, but at times I miss and regret abandoning my manual transmission roots.
I’m especially bothered that Noreen will never be in this new car. I still grieve almost regularly, especially following my visit in February to the beach where her ashes rest. The feelings of loss just keep getting deeper and deeper. I took the car for a 500 km drive today, paying attention to the recommendations of the engine break-in period. Despite very much enjoying the driving experience and the look of my new car, on the way home I needed to cry realizing how I am moving forward without her.
The new car is a step toward my retirement, which will happen this autumn or by autumn next year. When I open to my feelings about it, my move into my future, away from what were the foundations of my life (Noreen and my job), deep feelings of fear and aloneness bubble up. When I cry them out, it seems to me that my troubling health symptoms recede for a while.
Take care Margaret.
Margaret – I feel so embarrassed & angry that you are being subjected to such insanity by Patrick.
His thinking that being suspicious, angry and full of hate equals being smart is again pathetic – and that is all he has.
Instead, the comments of all others here are sane and could be even helpful. Unfortunately, all is over Patrick’s head and heart – but what else is new. It has been years that we have endured his badgering.
Please know we mourn for you and with you, and for your country and everyone there who is of course suffering and having to go on with such life altering losses.
L
A badger iis a fine animal I will not have you talk bad about badgers…………….
My new favorite song.Wistfully light-dark. Definitely primal.
The best option might be to stay away from this blog, I’m tired of all this nonsense.
Besides what is going on in my life and my reaction to the bombings in Brussels, I have one more reaction triggered by recent writings on the blog.
The only reason I come to the blog, besides sharing when I need help to get through a feeling, is to see how you are feeling and coping. I skim over the pseudo-intellectual frothing, albeit I’m fascinated by the diversion it serves to the people for who it is a safe-from-feeling way to engage on this a feeling blog.
People have used free thinker and Patrick in the same sentence. Honestly, I don’t see any free thinking coming from Patrick. He is stuck in the same thought process, over and over. Same agenda each time, just different details, the purpose of which it seems is to serve him with a way to avoid exploring and sharing feelings while still feeling plugged in to this blog. Like flies to dead meat, he reels us in, first one, then two, then a swarm in a feeding frenzy. But we eventually discover again that dealing with Patrick is devoid of nutrition, is an empty orgasm. Yet we repeat the pattern that with our involvement achieves what Patrick needs so that he is able to feel again at least for a while that he is connected to this blog.
I’ve reached a stage where I avoid alighting unless he really is introspecting and sharing his feelings. It’s amazing how desperate he is not to; how bizarrely contrived his thought process in order not to.
> Phil,
> I understand, but it is definitely not you that should stay away!!
> I am as fed up as you are with always the same person getting some kind of kick out of being obnoxious, as he once even admitted.
> if it would lead to some kind of insight we would all be supportive, but it is not productive in any way as far as I can see, on the contrary.
> I still find your guidelines a good solution, it is far from banning people indefinitely, but watches out for decent social behaviour without permitting continuous hurtful acting out in an endless repetitive way.
> it is getting crazier and crazier, it is ipossible to follow the logic of a mixed conspiracy of real bombs and buckets of red paint.
> once more I am all for a conditional temporary ban every time boundaries of common decent behaviour are trespassed only for resons of being controversial or antisemitic.
> how long has this been going on? and for how long does this need to go on? until there is hardly anyone left here?
> I can instantly name six persons who stay away because of this, without even having to think, so there probably are many more.
> it is not a good publicity either for primal therapy, if anyone visits here as a first timer it must look like a creepy nuthouse on occasions, crap everywhere..
> maybe that is part of the kick he gets from it, let’s just throw in some shit there if I don’t dare to go there and have an honest look at myself, let’s just crap on everything and soil it..
>
> this is really unacceptable Phil, that you would be driven to wishing to back out, if I understand you in the right way! please don’t go!
> Gretchen, can we please use those guidelines Phil suggested long ago? they make so much sense and are not black and white at all, in fact very similar to what is asked of people in usual group settings. why should this be different? would you allow any kind of filth here forever?
> just expressing my view on this, I respect any decisuon you find best of course.
> M
Margaret and Phil, how can you take seriously what Patrick writes? I mean, why do you even read and get all bothered by it? That is a mystery to me. You seem addicted to him like a drug addict to the supplier.
Larry,
A short time back you were taking it seriously and exchanging book titles as I recall, and trying to fight the Antisemitism, and at other times you’ve withdrawn. We all will have to use our own ways of dealing with this. I don’t have any addiction with Patrick, but he does trigger me. I can avoid it, but I would like to continue using the blog
Phil
If you recalled correctly, Phil, you may remember me stating a short time back that I didn’t think Patrick was anti-semitic, an opinion for which I worried I might get a lot of abuse from all of you. I wasn’t trying to fight the Antisemitism as you say. I felt he had reached a stage of openness where I took the risk of sharing with him what I saw were the flaws in his thought process. We had a non-provocative exchange for a brief while, where I was touched by the tortured individual that he is. The exchange and connection didn’t accomplish much in the long run though, and likely never will with Patrick. All that was achieved for me was a deep sadness for how locked away he is from any real connection with anyone, and how he needs more help than he’ll ever admit to or let himself get.
As for being withdrawn from the blog, the truth is that most of the time I’m disinterested, or more accurately I am too consumed and exhausted by my health problems to spend much time here. Already I’ve spent hours here this morning, and I’m glad to have been engaged with you, but I’ve consumed time and low energy reserves that I intended to direct toward chores that I’ve been putting off for days and are dragging me down. I don’t have anywhere near the health and energy reserves that I did a year ago.
Larry,
I’m sorry to hear that you’ve still having health issues. I hope the doctor you mentioned can help get to the bottom of it and provide a solution.
I would say Patrick expresses a lot of craziness here which does include Antisemitism, for whatever reason. It’s the craziness in general which gets to me.
I agree with Margaret that it would be nice if there were some group guidelines which could be used to limit that. After Patrick found he couldn’t continue indefintely with the same rants, he would probably leave on his own accord.
Phil
Quote:- “It’s sort of interesting to read all the comments addressed to me, for some reason they don’t bother me much at all. ” So why mention it??????
Jack
> Larry,
> that is not the first time you say something like that.
> yet on several occasions you did actually engage extensively with Patrick while we were not doing so.
> as someone warned long ago, he has a very good way of engaging people, and no one seems able to ignore all of what he says, not you either, so please don’t be so condescending, cause that is what it sounds like.
>
> he provokes people often while they are being vulnerable, and in a feeling, and sometimes expressing what that triggers is the best option, or to expose the sheer stupidity of what he says and the false arguments that are being used, wrong facts and all.
>
> I would rather not have to engage occasionally, try to do so as little as possible, but also I am realy fed up with his verbal diarrhea here so much of the time.
>
> at least we take a clear stand, wanting boundaries.
> otherwise it would feel like allowing someone to put ugly graffity all over one’s living room again and again and again.
>
> maybe it would be easier if he would just terrorize in general, but he attacks in more or less personal ways, trying to inflict pain, offending people and most specially the Jewish community over and over, and I find that simply and plainly unacceptable.
>
> and I feel completely ok about saying so as often as I feel like.
> you talk as if you never engaged, I can assure you you did more than once for sure.
> M
You are putting words in my mouth, again, Margaret.
I never said I never engaged with Patrick. I engaged with Patrick on occasion, and recently only a month or two ago, because I felt that he was actually introspecting, reflecting, and revealing something about himself and what makes him tick. By then everyone was so worked up and so pissed off with him that they couldn’t see the change in him, the vulnerability he briefly showed. You might have noticed in those brief encounters that there was no mud slinging and no provocation from him, just a brief openness to trying to understand. His introspection never seems to go anywhere long lasting though. Perhaps Patrick is a hopeless case who should be forever banned from interacting here. I’d like that if it made you feel more relaxed about participating on the blog.
Except that it says something about who he is and how he functions emotionally, 99% of what he says is meaningless verbal bait spun from his pain, and I simply have no interest in getting caught up in it, except when he is hurting someone else I want it stopped. I really haven’t paid attention to what he’s written recently, except to skim it over and see that it’s desperate nonsense, the spouting of a disturbed individual. My emotional psyche just automatically doesn’t want to waste time getting caught up in it.
I’m disappointed you find me condescending. I’m just telling you like I am.
Larry, first I wanted to comment that I was and continue to be sorry about your health issues. I know you have been coping for some years now and I always think your usual good health will shine through. Brave of you to disclose all that you are going through while going through it and awaiting tests and test results. Also good to hear what has been ruled out and that the conditions they are looking at now are treatable. There are often such gradations and remissions of
those other illnesses… and I hope you find relief soon.
In Margaret and Phil’s defense – sometimes lines have to be drawn for people who have no boundaries whatsoever. Patrick’s comments are intolerable – especially when he so callously goes on and on… Not only is Patrick’s life a constant recreation of his deprived past, but our reactions of shock and disgust mirror how so many of his family, the Irish and society have felt/feel as he rants – I’m sure.
> Larry,
> well, am I putting words in your mouth?
> you are the one saying we are addicted, which sounds pretty judgmental.
> especially as like Phil says, you also engaged several times.
> we all had to discover Patrick has a way of occasionally showing a brief glimpse of his true colors, less and less so really, but anyway, but then when you engage with him even in a nice way, shits on your head and offends you not much later, and ignores anything that does not fit his act outs.
> you are simply less here than we are lately, and it really did feel like condescending, sorry if that was not how you meant it.
>
> I do not feel addicted either, am very consciously monitoring how and if I react.
> not so much to defend my own viewpoints, but in the last occasion I could not stand it how plainly wrong factual information was served here by him and his so called guru as if they were facts.
> like the persons on the pictures of the terrorists, giving them the wrong identity to prove a point.
> I don’t want anyone to read that crap and believe some of it.
> Daniel once worded it much better than I can word it.
>
> and no, I was not impressed at all with the ‘openness’ Patrick seemed to show to you at the time of the exchange about the literature..
> but that is merely my opinion, and I did not feel the need to criticize you about it.
>
> somehow it feels like something else is going on, but that is ok.
>
> and by the way, you kind of put words in my mouth here, how often do I need to say here I am mostly for guidelines and temporary banning, Patrick has repeatedly distorted my words as to do everything to get him out of here forever, and now you say something similar.
> now I do admit that if I should choose between him here forever and him gone forever, by now the last option would be my preference.
> but I do not hate Patrick as a person, in fact still wish the best for him, so I’d rather leave him the opportunity to take a turn for the better and learn, but not at all cost.
>
> certainly not while he claims he is doing perfectly well and does not care one bit about how we feel about his behavior.
>
> but hey, it is not as if I can’t cope, I will deal with any kind of situation that presents itself.
> but it is a shame to feel even the slightest tendency of censoring oneself about really vulnerable stuff on here nowadays. I try not to give into it, but sometimes it is hard to talk about stuff while running the risk of it being soiled.
> not to be bullied and to watch other people being bullied, not witnessing a lot of people staying away because of him.
I didn’t say you said he should be banned forever Margaret. I only said that if banning him would make everyone more comfortable to open up and participate here, then I’m all for it.
Come to think about it, I think I might hold back more than I used to because I know he might pounce any moment and ruin any atmosphere of trust and sharing that might be growing. I guess my frustration is that we let it happen, and so for instance Phil says maybe the best option is to stay away from this blog. I’d hate to see people leave. I guess what I’m saying is, ignore him, don’t leave.
> a Belgian couple was on the phone with their son and daughter, who were about to check in for the States, when suddenly the first bomb went off. they lost both of their kids while talking with them…
>
> still about 130 injured people in the hospitals, about half of them in intensive care..
> so many sad stories ..
>
> the number of deadly victims at the checkin on the airport is now up to 18. it did take a while to identify some of the victims in coma with severe burns and specially to identify the victims on the spots of the explosions.
> a lot of family members had to wait for a long time to then in some occasions be brought to some victims in coma, hoping of course it would be their loved one, at least still being alive.
> hard to imagine the distress people like that must be facing.
>
> and the poor American girl waiting for her boyfriend to fly over, he just had sent her a text message telling her how much he loked forward to it.
> she was interviewed crying and saying how much now she realized how deeply you can love someone.
>
> there was also a Dutch guy in a discussion program, who talked about a period in his life in which he had been radicalizing, and starting to hate people, influenced by the hate talk his extremist friends showered him with.
> he was already packing for Syria, but his mom managed to keep him from leaving on one occasion, and shortly after he was diagnosed with cancer and ended up in a hospital for treatment.
> he related how the nurses and specially a female oncologist were very kind to him, the oncologist putting her hand on his forehead, asking him if he was ok, as she was worrying about the heavy medication.
> he said there, looking those people in the eye, he started thinking, how can I hate those people?
> he said, and that felt very genuine and was touching, he there finally suddenly got back in touch with his feelings he had completely pushed away for a long time, opening up to them.
> it was very interestin g to listen to him, such a clear example of the fine line between going one way or the other.
>
> these are very intense days for a large number of people here.
> M
> Larry,
> `I also hope you soon get the right treatment that will make you feel better.
> glad your doctor could already say the remaining options could all be treated.
>
> and I do understand what you are saying, I think we are actually on the same wavelength.
>
> Patricks rants certainly are not worth arguing about, ha, smiley..
>
> but I would really hate the fact people, more people would stay away because of him.
> because of the way he behaves really.
> M
I mentioned a little time back about my upbringing in relation to Judaism. In it I related on my English lit. teacher making me stand on my desk and reciting Shylock’s speech. I had mentioned the same thing at a retreat, when Vivian asked if I knew the whole speech and/or could I give it to her. It’s only now I found that whole speech and am including in this comment:-
Act 3 scene 1 Merchant Of Venice
Shylock:- Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs,dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
Gretchen: should Vivian not be viewing the blog will you pass it onto her T.Y.I.A.
With respect to the Patrick bru aha: banning him either partially or fully I feel, does not resolve anything. If we are irritated or disgusted at and by his comments .. I suggest have ones feelings about him/it and move on. Not wanting to be triggered I feel is attempting to avoid aspect of life (feelings and their expression) Life for me is not ALL “Hunky Dorey” but lucky for me, a great deal of it is.
Just one other thing:- I watched a three hour documentary on PBS last night about the 1916 Easter revolution in Ireland to gain independence. I was appalled by the behavior of my countries involvement in it. At the end when their rebellious leaders, after laying down their arm, were court martialed, found guilty of treason, and executed by firing squad.
It caused me sleeplessness , for quite some time after I went to bed, thinking about it. Some of it (which is why I wish to mention all this here, is because some of the feelings about it all, are still lingering. Many insights are being triggered about my early baby-hood along with it.
Sorry for the epistle for those not wishing to see this. Meantime ……..!!!!!
Jack
In that list you forgot to mention lurking around the institute frightening people. And I mean that in a literal sense – the same forces are doing both.
You really need help and I feel sad that you’re not getting it. You actually wrote something about it on Feb 28, but unfortunately you did not receive a proper response from us, probably because you’ve done your best to alienate us.
It sounded than and it sounds now like you live with a lot of fear inside.
You didn’t get it (but it looks like it did get to you). The point was that the force that inside you makes you think that Israel is responsible for all these terror attacks, is the very same force that made you lurk around the PI, and especially the one that made you frighten others.
I agree that this is a matter of trust, and evidently you trust so very little. I hope for you that you will succeed in rehabilitating that one day as right now you seem to be in a lot of pain and misery.
I forgot to add: You can go anywhere in the world, there is nothing I want to DO to you.
Well that’s nice to know……….thanks…………….as far as your ‘conflation’ above I find that so weak and such a hopeless mumbo jumbo Freudian crap attitude the kind of mindset where you can’t even fight your way out of a paper bag (self made). I used to think James Joyce was ‘joking’ when he called Freud “Sickmind Fraud” but like a lot of jokes there is truth in it
Quote:- “It is meant to be all ‘safe’ and in the ‘therapy room’ that is exactly the syndrome that keeps them coming back year after year seeking that elusive feeling.” Typical of your crooked thinking … the Primal Institute and it’s therapy is meant to be a safe environment to feel the TERROR of ones past. Not quite the simplistic way you characterize it. Think again.
And yet another quote:-“…. the idea of me ‘lurking around the PI as being the same as there ‘terror events’ is typical hyperbole and the kind of dangerous mindset that is really disagreeable to me. I don’t trust you.” You slinking, around the Institute was freaky … to put it mildly. It might have been that you were carrying a gun. There’s telling where your act-out lead you or will lead you the future.
It might be interesting if you were to tell us why you decided to slink around the Institute …instead of trying to soften this GROSS act-out.
For a FAILURE of this therapy (by your own words) WHERE do you get the notion that it’s as you characterize it??????
Jack
I’m sorry. I said this once and I will say it again and hopefully NOBODY feels offended by it (but if anyone feels BAD, that’s another matter, it might be useful to you). We are not in group here. If someone says stuff in group that makes us nuts, we can sit and suffer and keep listening, or run out of the group room and chalk up another bad group, , or talk about our reaction and/or scream at that assholeish group member, who obviously has some deep deep pain. If someone says stuff that makes us nuts on this blog, the format is so easy to use, you use the page down key or the down arrow if you see someone’s post, if you know that their post is going to drive you up a wall. This is incredulous that you guys pay attention to someone whose views seem to be repugnant to most of you. I don’t get it. What am I missing here? And people are saying they are turning away from this blog because of someone’s post? That they can just skip past? Are you using Patrick to escape from your own pain? Not trying to be critical but this just seems so fucking weird to me. Anyway, I was just logging on to comment on another thing I posted months ago, I think. I was watching a particular House MD episode again and the team had found a cure for the psychopathic patient who, along with her sister, was abused by their drunken father while growing up. She was now able to feel. Dr. Hadley: “He hasn’t changed (about her poor husband who was lied to for many years). But you have. The treatment actually worked on your brain. If you were still a psychopath, you would have just kept draining him dry.” Psycho Patient (with a damn good job of acting pain and sadness on her face and in her voice): “What do you want!? Dr. Hadley (happy expression on her face: “Your feeling something! What is it? What do you feel?.” Psycho Patient (with the saddest look you can possibly imagine, tearful): “ I don’t know. It hurts,” Big sigh. Dr. Hadley: “It will.” And a little mood music. Season 6, Episode 12 “Remorse”. Maybe some of the psychos amongst us could get something out of watching this one.
Wow! That was expressed so clearly and confidently. I see big improvement in you.
Having said that, I now feel stupid and I am seeing things a little more clearly and a tiny bit less know-it-all-y. But. what. ever. I know nothing, NOTHING!
Trust yourself.
I will say I appreciate Jack laying off of me during these ‘feeding frenzies’ I guess he has his ‘fill’ the rest of the time. Plus he would miss me nobody to dump on like me he has said himself he would miss that. Like Churchill admitted he missed Hitler………….that’s why he was a true war monger he liked war. Jack does too in his own way. It’s pretty ‘sick’ imo
Margaret – about those people who I it seems ‘keep’ of the blog I can kind of guess who some of them are and that is such nonsense. The same people who spend whatever little money they have on ‘therapy’ but fail consistently to be anything close to ‘straight’ well their problem and their self defeating ways of going about things
I keep nobody from doing anything but if they can’t face up to certain realities and maybe certain embarrassment on their own part and just do ‘back ground gossip’ with you I mostly feel sorry for them. But they will probably be at the ‘repeat’ again this year still chasing those feelings………….and gossiping away in the background they might even call it ‘budying’ or maybe ‘muddying’ or ‘private sessions’ still mostly just ‘gossip’ the total in-ability to be ‘straight’ ………….whatever………..
I laid off you since others took over. Meantime, I do agree that you seem to beoff the rails.
Jack
I am so, so, so, surprised by your response to me about the Easter uprising. I was certain you would have stated that it was another Mossad operation in collaboration with the Irish government. What happened????? BUT you did state that it was propaganda, but didn’t state by whom … so! I am left wondering.
Incidentally I have had this conversation with you before, that I feel the whole of Ireland should be under the rule of all of the Irish … BUT alas, I don’t see the British relinquishing that diagonal red cross on a silver background. That would make the Union Jack look a bit naked and then if the Scotts were to secede, leaving just a red plus cross on a silver background would look positively naked. We couldn’t take that. So! like we did with that bit of Spain (Gibraltar) and that bit of China, (Hong Kong) we take our little bits in the desperate hope that we are still a significant nation. As I see it; like all great Empires, they have a Beginning a Middle and an End and the Brits began to lose it at the beginning of the 20th century … though for the most part I contend we/they do not see it.
Maybe I will get some flack from those patriots … BUT I no-more identify with where I was born or any supposed cultural aspects of it. I am just me … The good, the bad, and the downright ugly.
Jack
I hate to gobble up the blog space by putting this link to Heart’s Straight On, but it is such a neat little picture of a dog and butterfly. It is a black puppy with brown patches, white feet tips, chest and nose. With a butterfly sitting on his nose. 2 big monarch butterflies, orange, black, and a little white, you can see the little antenna on the one that is up in the air to the left of the puppy’s head. Deep rich contrast colors. The sky is light blue, not sure if you would call it turquoise, with some very light clouds. Appears to me to be a painting, but maybe not, very realistic. An album cover. The bottom half of the picture is the green grass that the puppy is lying in. Maybe kind of like a young St. Bernard, not sure exactly what kind of breed, brown eyes. Very plush fur, not exactly short. I used to listen to Heart songs like this when I was sitting in the dark in the photo lab circa 1978 I think, pulling black and white negatives one by one through a metal square bracket, trying to figure how much exposure to give each one, pushing a button to give the correct exposure , or half the time, not the correct exposure, too dark or light, wasting photo paper left and right, since I was loaded most mornings on pot. People’s lives on film, but in negative and small, so the pictures looked weird until I came into the light later and saw some of the finished ones. Bad times maybe. Z’s dad had died around that time and that threw us into horrible turmoil. I can’t believe how much pain we have gone through in our life together. Kind of makes me nuts. It certainly did not bring us together. Damn. Lucky Americans, living in luxury, away from the bombs that you lucky Americans are dropping on us stinking Arabs so you can take our oil to light up your factories. Mr. Arab, thank you for your oil, so we can all have jobs and eat. How about you stop bombing us and we stop bombing you? Fat chance….
Otto: I laughed so loud at you wrecking all that photo paper being high on pot. and the description of the little puppy with the butterflies laying in the grass with the clear blue sky was so endearing. You seem to be coming so much alive in-spite of all the turmoil in your life. You are so refreshing to read. I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way.
Yeah, yeah!! we in the west so privileged whilst we bomb the shit out or others then get all upset when every now and again they blow a few of us away for our fucking arrogance. I feel that so often … there but for the grace of Godo and the shear luck of being born on that bit of dirt over there, the other side of the pond. Pure luck
My take, to repeat it again, is that it’s the fucking money and before that the bartering … such a fucked-up process of what should be a great chance to live in REAL FREEDOM, instead of all this pseudo freedom we crack up to be democracy … BUT is anything but.
Keep on blogging Otto … I love your stuff
Jack.
> Otto,
> thanks so much for the lovely description of the puppy with the butterflies.
> Iclearly remember the thrill I once had when,, out in the hills in Spain with my boyfriend, a huge butterfly came waltzing along and landed on the tip of my nose.
> I remained frozen as not to scare it away, while whispering to my boyfriend ‘look, look, look here!’, and it was nice he looked around, and saw me standing there with that gorgeous butterfly on the tip of my nose.
> a nice and sunny memory of days long gone..
> M
> this is really worrying.
> a security agent of a nuclear plant has been found murdered, and his entry badge stolen.
> it is deactivated as soon as they found out.
> but this event. added up to the case a couple of weeks ago of a hidden camera being discovered, filming all the comes and goes at the home of one of the directors also of a nuclear plant, is reason for genuine concern.
> we have here a large nuclear plant right outside the town limits, a crazy location for it to start with, and also in the middle of a large port with a lot of petrochemical industry..
>
> sounds pathetic and as an overreaction, which it porbably and hopefully is, but it is better to say it anyway, want to say I love you all, yes all of you and wish the best for everyone.
> these things should be said more often.
> why do I feel like crying now?
> M
Do you actually write this for Margaret, the same Margaret who keeps on saying how sick and tired she is from hearing all this made-up lunacy? As a fellow blog member, perhaps even a once-upon-a-time friend, do you really think this will put her at ease or comfort her?
Perhaps you haven’t been listening to her. Or worse, you have but don’t give a damn.
I don’t think it is an overreaction at all. If it was as close to home for me, I’d be worried almost to the point of paralysis.
M, I hope this will amount to nothing and just a scare. It happens a lot that after a very serious incident there are a lot of rumors and the security forces, being embarrassed by under-reacting and not being able to prevent it in the first place, are now hyper-vigilant and overreact.
Take care and be with someone if at all possible.
Quote:- “I know this is hard for people to even conceive off but I am more convinced as the days go by this Brussels thing is fakery. ” That you of all people to talk about conceiving when you weren’t even able to conceive the notion of abolishing money is RICH to say the least.
I wonder who the two friends you say you have that are on your “Wave Band” that are ex Primalers are. I also wonder why it is seemingly so important for you to propagate your version of world event.. As for me, it matter little what the “truth” iS only how I am affected (FEEL) by it, the rest is hearsay , If you were able to CONCEIVE it, that is what I feel Margaret is re-acting to. But as I see you, conceiving stuff is not a talent of yours.
Jack
More crying today about my best friend’s murder decades ago.Seeing his funeral in my mind and our young friend’s faces at the funeral, and his mom, and the urn. Didn’t remember the boat trip we took to spread his ashes in the sea. Just remembered it now. Remembered his sister and her boyfriend knocking at the door and I heard my grandmother call out Oh No!. and then she came to get me to tell me the bad new.I was still asleep because I was a mess of a person. I came to the conclusion today that I wished my grandmother could have comforted me, but I think she had gone too far into repression over her husband’s and my mother’s death years before. I remembered/saw a lot of things about the house we lived in. So what. I am not done with this and I feel no better. I feel responsible for his death in some way but I wont go into detail. Cry cry cry and some louder cries. I was going to try to do this at home this time, since Z and the kid wanted the car to go buy a suit for him, so he could go to a job interview next week, but they decided to wait until I got back at 4. Good, because I would have been too loud for the neighbors, I will have to come up with a solution to cover the doors and windows, but I doubt I will do anything at all because I am now working 6 days a week and more overtime daily, and that is just about all I can do. I came to the conclusion that everything that had gone before in my life, the fun with him and our other friends, that was now gone. My life was split in half, and I really shied away from getting close to people afterwards unless I was drinking, which often pushed people away from me. I cant get this into my head, this death. I can barely see it, how it affected me. Of course I am only thinking about myself, I cant think much about him, how horrible it must have been to have been stabbed to death. It might have been this time of year that it happened, I went downtown and joined the Navy not long afterwards, to my grandmother’s dismay.
This is heart rending also the ‘duty’ involved obviously John John had been schooled on what to do and he did it…………….
There is something underlying these whole conspiracy notions that you are spieling and the seeming need to go into it all in great detail. Since it is obvious that no-one is in any kind of agreement with you that writes to this blog, it leaves me wondering what is at the core of all this Should you feel the need to write it and seemingly are unable to find another blog that might have fellow travelers; it might be a good idea to be brief about it all. “Cut to cue” or at least try.
I agree that the need to “spit” out what is going on with ourselves, least-way for those of us that write here. However in your case it seems you resolve so little and we all know the end of the story … It’s gotta be the ‘Mossad’ and now in this latest dissertation it sound to me like you feel they are going to kill us all. That’s a bit of a stretch, isn’t it??????
There could be a great deal of what I am saying here applies equally to myself: so I will try to contemplate that ………… Mmmmm; I was always as a kid, argumentative and to some extent it was encourage in the family, particularly on the wet Sunday evenings when we would all sit round the fire and my father would start of with some current theme. They were great moments. At school I joined the debating society and I remember one motion in particular:- “Better to be a Socrates wise; but miserable, than a little pig content, but ignorant. For some unknown reason at the time I argued in favor of being the little pig content. Maybe that’s become my outcome. I hate being miserable.
Jack
Sorry: that was me Jack didn’t fill our the boxes
Hi all, Happy Easter to all who are religious or just enjoy the tradition of a past special Sunday.
Jack, we’ve all gone thru our misery here, haven’t we. No fun but we know it works.
I think Patrick should think a little about what these conspiracies are doing for him.
Jack, as you have said debating fulfilled something in you. Maybe it stemmed from something about being treated unfairly in your family. I’ve had my causes too. I’ve felt that I must alert people to the dangers of what they’re doing–not eating right, etc. and there ‘ve been many more things I’ve been desperate about. But I think an outlook might be a reflection of a rear view mirror. Something is surfacing and plugging into current events. Maybe that can be comforting in a way. Something’s not going to happen to be on the alert about; maybe it already has happened, from many years ago. Just a little philosophy for the day. Hug a bunny.
S
lay down your life for your country. ha. we are just cannon fodder to them. throw a bunch of men against the other group of men, and see which bunch gets pushed back, and which men fall to the ground in pain. and the rich get richer. fuck the country.going to take the kid home now. I told the kids to stay out of the military. crazy fucks in charge of the countries and the armies.
Sylvia: Thanks for the bunny hug … I liked that.
Otto: Yeah! there’s something rotten in the state of ‘the world’ as well as Denmark, and we human running the show. We’ve fucked-it-up royaly, and it seems we’re not learning. The only consolation I have to my misery is to cry about being miserable..
That’s not to say that I ain’t part of the problem.
Jack
Patrick, I wish you no harm (actually, the complete opposite) and have no plans to hurt you in any way, nor do I think Holocaust deniers should die.
Thanks Daniel – that feels nice and genuine. I appreciate that very much. Peace. “Pacem in Terris”
pretty speechless. dont want to write anything to hurt anyone’s feelings or bum people out.. easter…going to go eat indian food with z and kid. other than that, depressed. ha! depressed out of my gourd. need to watch some war movies to fight my depression. better-them-than-me maybe. haven’t gone to church in decades. havent gone to the cemetaries in years. no dyed eggs. if i get ahold of some candy i would eat until it came out of my ears. happy happy happy sunny easter. nah. fuck easter. fuck everything. thanks to everyone for writing their opinions and feelings on this blog. go be happy. me, no. not yet. mexicans in the park with their easter barbecues, happy happy happy. hmm. shut me up please. used to eat roast beef or lamb or ham at fairly big cousin-ly gatherings. family scattered or gone, like the kennedys. oh well i was the odd man out at those gatherings anyways. just enjoyed the food mostly. kind of like my feelings about the retreats. hmm. cafeteria food, my favorite. no really, it has special meaning. my grandma, brother, aunt and uncle went to the cafeteria restaurant a lot on Sundays, after going to church and tothe cemetery. shut me up damn it.
Otto, like your down-to-earth comments. You are very practical. Enjoy your curry.
S
> Daniel, just read your comment to Patrick about him adressing me, ha, to ‘help me feel better’.
> thanks for speaking up.
> I just deleted his comment halfway through, which is very uncommmon for me.
> reading more felt sickening, deleting felt liberating.
> still, it does not change the lunacy and I fear the second option you suggested for the motives might be true.
> for some reason he seems to like to hurt and/or offend people.
>
> M
> Daniel,
> just read your next comment.
> I am not really afraid, more concerned.
> these events indirectly linked to nuclear plants are real, the first one where the camera was discovered happened before the bombings.
> I am just noticing what strikes me and might be worth paying attention to in order to prevent it if possible.
> in fact I am glad if these preparations happen, they are at least discovered.
> like one of the other ‘smalll’ events that make me frown is the theft of protective cloths, the ones protecting against chemical or biological pollution, not so long ago in France.
> and the uniforms of soldiers and policemen that were also found in a hide-out of the terrorists that were caught in time in Verviers.
> it is not fear or terror I feel but it feels more like it would be really stupid to ignore that kind of stuff.
> all signals saying PROTECT THOSE SENSITIVE AREAS BETTER STILL!.
> we tend to be somewhat sloppy here with way too much administration and endless quarrels about who does what and when and in which language.
> it feels more like healthy vigilance, maybe not useful in this case in reality as I have little to no influence, but it feels kind of a good instinctive quality to be open for all kinds of information.
>
> I was talking about it in kind of a casual way today with my brother, saying that actually it did make me think ‘well, maybe I should go by the farmacy anyway to get a new (free) set of jodium tablets,’ which they hand out to anyone living near a nuclear plant like we do here.
> better to to prepare for just in case, if the plant blows up it will be of no use, but if there is temporary pollution it does protect for a period of time until you get the hell away as far as possible.
>
> again, don’t get me wrong, I am not living in fear about these things,but it is a small effort to walk into the farmacy and well, I’d definitely regret not having done so if..
> and my brother agreed rightaway it was a good idea.
>
> thinking about Patricks latest ‘essay’ about the fakeness of what happened in Brussels, it actually puts a smile on my face, as it is so ridiculous.
> if he really believes this, he has a serious problem, and if he does not and is only acting out, well, it is in a ridiculous way.
>
> M
> Otto,
> these are awful events and feelings you are dealing with.
> still, it sounds like you are going through major breakthroughs in accessing them on a deeper level.
> even here several of us have commented already on how you are changing and opening up, really interacting with us, and that is so very true.
> it might still be a while before you start sensing the positive effects but I feel confident they will come.
> life will always remain full of problems like for most of us but inside something will keep changing for the better.
> thinking of you.
> M
> subconscious fears must be triggered despite not passing my days full of fear.
> twice in a row I had a very scary nightmare this morning.
> what happened for real yesterday was the workmen as I found out after a while had disconnected mistakenly a wire which had put my phone landline out of order, and as I noticed a bit later, my internet connection as well.
> it got fixed yesterday afternoon, as one of the workmen came back and he and my brother could reestablish the connection.
> then what happened for real yesterday as well was a new propaganda video of IS was shown on the news, in which they show a map from Belgium, and let it explode three times in a row.
> it is worrying as they usually do not make threats without later on doing at least a few attempts.
> then in one of their videos a guy from Antwerp, now in Irak or Syria, also made specific threats to us.
>
> now the dream was about this Ukrainian workman in the house where i live, coming to my door with one of his pals, trying to make me sign some papers about an answering machine they’d install for me to make up for the connection, but charging a large sum each month. as I refused to sign the atmosphere became threatening, even though at some point I could lock them out so they were in the stairway and me in my living room, behind my door.
> they kept trying to enter, while I tried to keep the key in the lock, the door shut, and tried to call the police with my cellphone at the same time.
> over and over I could not find the right keys, while the feeling of threat increased, and I feared they would go around the back or force their way in, and I could hear them snigger about what would happen then.
> I woke up all tense with pounding heart, fell back to sleep again a bit later, to end up in the same dream, same situation, worse tension, phone still refusing to respond in the way I wanted, me desperately trying to push the right buttons, standing by the door, seeing them peer in through a small window on top of the door, and then again waking up all scared and with cramped fingers in which my dream cellphone had been.
> by then I felt so tense it occurred to me the best way to do something about that was to take my cellphone, always by my pillow, go to the preprogrammed emergency number, and activate it to the point I only needed to push one button to make a call if necessary..
> rationally I knew this was not gone be necessary as the workmen are quite friendly,now, as one of them actually was pretty agressive in general a few years ago to people I know, and unfriendly to me as well.
> but by now we get along fairly well.
>
> but anyway, my point is old fear is definitely triggered, and it seems mixed in with the current general atmosphere of unsafety.
> noone really expected these terrorist attacks at the airport and subway really either, I guess most people tend to assume it will never really happen to them, which is not a bad thing as you can’t let this kind of fear rule your life.
>
> but it is also undeniably a threat that exists and needs to be prevented, as there are plenty of lunatics around.
>
> just wanted to share this here as I am not gonna worry my brother with my nightmares as he tends to be overprotective, he is a really nice person.
>
> our mom luckily is reasonably well lately, much better with less medication, we pampered her well yesterday, with food, eastern eggs, doing her laundry, making her bed, on the couch, giving her flowers etcetera.
> she enjoys being in her house, while she does say she is really getting old now.
> it is nice she can enjoy simply being there, it gets better now spring may arrive, one of these weeks…
>
> so well, that’s it for now, should start studying a bit now.
> M
> Jack,
> it just occurred to me how much you and Patrick have this in common, you both seem to want to ‘educate’ us.
> to some degree I can relate to it, or recognize it as my mom was my very first teacher in school, and that leaves its traces, not all good, not al bad.. hope Jim is ok.
> M
Margaret: I agree. Looking back at it I did wish to go to collage and become a teacher. Some of the roots of this was: being the oldest of three others I was forever trying to teach my siblings. All that stemmed from my mother forever telling me that since I was the oldest, I should be responsible for them.
My bother and I in our adulthood did discuss this; as he (my brother) could never understand WHY I seemed to be always of their side (Mammy’s and daddy’s).
Jack
……………..and as far as “God” is/was concerned my attitude was along the lines of if he would forgive all my little jokes and jibes about HIM, I would be prepared to forgive the great big joke he played on me. And I suppose that is still my attitude a bit about Janov. See how little we really seem to change at least in fundamental aspects though I understand Jack imagines he has ‘resolved’ so much………………I have never seen the dude ‘resolve’ anything or even ever change his mind about anything. Everything locked in place and God in his Heaven all is perfect in a perfect world. Now if only we could get those Irish ruffians to play along and go with our ‘perfect’ program. But they won’t……………….no matter how ‘good’ we are to them. They for some reason feel we are really ‘bad’ to them. I wonder why they would even ever harbor such a notion…………….
Quote:- “…..just a little cheap anal-izing hey it’s done to me a lot here so I take permission lol) ”
No!!! you stated all the shit flinging when YOU first came onto the blog … if your memory goes back that far … but since you always get your knickers in a truss whenever I bring it up, hope that jogs the memory a bit.
Funny how you always want to anal-ize. Maybe after all … you’ve got a thing about the anal cavity … but then that is usually where, in most cases, where the shit flows from ……!!!!!!!
Just another quote to keep you amused. “And then quoting me back or just mimicking me and mocking me forever and ever…………….” I never did mimic you or even mocked you; I didn’t need to; the worse I did to you was put your own words back to you and for the strangest of reason that somehow got your ‘heckles up’ and you went ‘off on the deep end’ and seeming are unable to swim.
You are to this blog as I see you, what Donald Trump is to the Republican Party; an embarrasment. I gather he’s your new lover boy, now that Dr. Kruse seems to have faded from the picture.
Jack
Like I said……………….never seem to ‘resolve’ anything……………….try getting over something, anything dude……………..
Isn’t it good to be an ’embarrassment’ to the Republican Party just as it is good to be an embarrassment to ‘fundamentalist narrow minded primal’ as exhibited by the likes of yourself……………..as far as your ‘veins’ aren’t they about totally clogged up by now…………..
> how big can one’s hate be?
> just heard on the norning news about the suicide bomber in Pakistan that blew himself up in the middle of a playground full of kids, killing about 50 of them…
>
> the aim was to hurt the christian community but actually there were also a lot of muslim kiddies there.
>
> it is inconceivable.
>
> liked the hug a bunny too, Sylvia, just finished the last part of my eastern cake, still have some chocolate eggs left too. yeah, grrreat Belgian chocolate!
> M
> just another litle event that does not add to my general feeling of safety and security:
> it is very stormy here today, and suddenly during a strong blow of wind I heard a loud clattering and breaking glass or stoneware.
> I checked my terrace but the pots with the plants I had already kind of secured were still ok, and I could not find anything, luckily also not while checking the Jugendstil glass doors we have in the hallway.
> but then, just as I was standing there right next to the downstairs neighbours doors, a terrible burst of anger from one of the men there broke out. he shouted, and I heard more breaking of glass and throwing over of big heavy pieces of furniture. there seemed to be at least five people in there, two women and the men.
> it went on for a few minutes, while i was listening to hear if I should call the police if it got really out of hand, but quieted down and restarted and quieted down again finally.
> it is a bit disturbing, I remember how events like that, before with the other neighbours that lived above me, tended to trigger nightmares.
> these people so far had been relaxed, this is the first time since they moved in..
> I also struggled for several hours with the university website, in vain, trying to get to some study material.
> for two courses I am doing it is reasonably accessible, but this third course, Literature study, with complicated software on top of it to create one’s own library for references and quotes and bibliografies, has not given in to my attempts, so I will have to go to the study center for assistance.
> I am now leaning over to the choice of going without the software and making all my references manually, but still it leaves the problem of accessing study material and (digital) libraries..
> oh well, so many problems, too little good company lately, feeling it is so much struggling in general for not enough fun.
> the study is still ok, but life could be better.
> should improve when the weather finally will get better, promised for the end of this week..
> good thing is I am doing fine without painkillers, it gets easier and easier to go without for long periods of time, that increase in length every time.
> like since new year have been almost two months without taking anything, am glad about it but sometimes miss that guaranteed moment of ‘haaaaa’ when the warm relaxing effects start.
> not thinking about it though not even upon going to bed, which is a very good sign. sleep fairly well too.
> cats help to make me feel ok, as they like to join me at sleeping times, actually they are on the bed before me..
> girlfriend finally coming back from extended stay on remote Spanish islands, will be nice to see her again and to catch up.
> tomorrow adventure of buying Iphone and changing over rightaway from speaking cellphone to new system, hope it works well as I rely on it.
>
> Vicky, long time no hear, do you still read here occasionally? how are you doing?
> M
I am glad you can write here Margaret. There must be so much to go through…
whether real or worked out through nightmares and all. Such an invasion. So glad you have your kitties, family, friends and home to help you feel safe.
ox L
thanks m. this site is becoming my haven for batting away my insane thoughts and feelings.
the black cat started panting and fell down earlier today. i looked at the food z fed him today and asked her what was it in. she said chicken parsley and garlic. he seems ok now, but she would like to spend $800 at the vet to make sure. i am pretty sure he was poisoned by; the garlic. I am still paying off his $2500 tail amputation. the kid is getting ready for his big presentation/job interview in Champain IL on friday. He finally got his suit, he figured out what restaurant that his interviewers could take him to, so he wouldn’t look like an idiot by eating messy barbecue, now he just needs to get it together with what he is going to show them about what he has figured out with his years of battery research. has anyone woken from a nightmare and gone into tears, primal, whatever? I almost did once. the easter indian food was horribly bland and there were no women to look at, the place was deserted. yes i am a creepy old man. just looking for mommy or just somewhat normal man thoughts. Actually, it’s funny, my grandmother actually was raising me to be a woman, not intentionally, , and she succeeded to a certain point. Later that night arguing with Z on the way to the grocery store to get her groceries for the week. The crying about dead things is leaving me depressed and untouchable. I don’t even tell her about what i am crying about every saturday because even though she has been to PT, she does not seem to be able to understand my pain and has a hard time listening to me. I am working 6 days a week to try to get out from under a load of debt, while the overtime is available, and it makes me even more cranky than usual to just have one day off a week, and this easter sunday was no joy for me. took the kid to HIS grocery store on easter (trader joes) since he crashed his motorcycle months ago and didn’t get a car and thankfully not another motorcycle. Unfortunately, this was not the Trader Joes where there are women wearing No Peace No Pussy sweatpants, so I just sat in the car listening to Doctor radio to see how my life as an old man is going to play out. I didn’t get crazy over not getting a good Easter meal, I have gone crazy when I have not had a good meal before, I actually had a tantrum when young about eating roast beef every Sunday. I would now eat roast beef every day if I could. Beautiful heavy winds today, however some branches on the giant old pine tree in the back yard are getting dangerously close to the power line to the house, and week after week, I feel powerless to do anything about it. Stuck and paralysed is the old feeling, and sometimes I can rise above it, and sometimes I just have to let shit play itself out to my detriment. I picked up some testosterone cream on the advice of my doctor, who said it would help with depression and it would make me want to exercise, but I don’t know if getting cancer is worth it. I ate a piece or 2 of Atty’s chocolate at the PI, and I swear I want a big bag of it, but somehow I did not go buy one. I am sorry if I have nothing comforting to say to anyone, and I am not trying to bash my wife. I just don’t know who she is after 40 years of marriage. If the kid gets the job in Illinois, she said she would probably go with him for 6 months, and wonders why I don’t care if she is gone. She has been very supportive of the kid, and I have only been supportive minimally of the kid, by keeping a roof over Z’s head, so she can be supportive of him. I only care if she is gone because Sophie the dachshund will be devastated to be left alone all day, and I would probably have to get a companion dog for her, since she would howl all day, and we said we weren’t going to get any more pets. Well maybe the kid will not get the job and will continue research at UCLA or start a battery company here. Once again, sorry not to interact with anyone on this blog that much, it is not my forte.
> Otto,
> I don’t exactly remember if I cried after waking up out of some dreams, think i did at some occasion.
> more often the deep sadness already rises in the dream, with sometimes also dream crying.
> it feels to me like a great help dreams can process some of our stuff.
> again sounds like you are doing pretty well.
> M
> went on my second expedition to a shopping centre to buy an Iphone today.
> with an assistant with a car.
> this time they proposed me the version 5 SE as it is smaller but has the software of the 6, and is cheaper on top of it, as it is a transition version to the 7.
> so when I was all into it they told me they did not have it right there but had to order it..
> so I did order one, and will have to wait for an e-mail and then go back for it..
> coming back home, my laptop which I had taken along to try and do the synchroizing there, played up, I had problems getting my mail out, but was not sure whether it was the connection to the modem which had been broken by the workmen, and might be interrupting and making it have to reset all the time, or whether it was the laptop being acting out or the provider..
> so that took me over an hour of struggling as I did want to send some e-mails asap.
>
> well, finally, my faithful little laptop rearranged itself after leaving it alone for a while and resetting the modem, and all is wel again..
> I get so tired of all these software hurdles, triggering more feelings of emotional tiredness, had a nap, still felt down, had something to eat, still had dangling software problems on my mind regarding the literature Study course, and decided the best way was to tackle it.
> so sent a mail to the university computer guy to ask him for a meeting to explore the site with the study material together and find out what the problem and hopefully the solution is, possibly next thursday.
> feel tired still, and not into anything, think it is a mixture of lack of sunshine , company and some unfelt sadness..
> my brother promised me to go with me to get the iphone if it is there by saturday. that would be nice..
> M
> I saw an extract of an interview with a guy in his early twenties, who lost a leg during the terrorist attack at the hard rock concert. two bullets destroyed it so badly it had to be amputated.
> finally now he got to try, for the first time, a prothese, and commented how glad he was about that, and when he added ‘I feel I regain my freedom’, he could hardly speak, and then started crying.
> it affected me, as I can relate very well with how a handicap can limit one’s freedom.
>
> today I saw an interview with a basket ball player, I htink an American playing in Belgium, Seb, as in Sebastian, Weller or something close to that.
> his leg was injured on a lot of places, but worst of all was that part of his hip was simply blown away with a piece of metal.
> he is determined to walk again some day, and it seems typical for many victims they feel both glad about surviving and almost guilty of the fact they survived while others did not.
> so many stories, listening to them from so nearby the amount of pain involved becomes so much more vivid, it is dreadful to think of all those poor victims, not choosing for any fight, and the ways their life and the life of their loved ones getting affected.
>
> it is very hard to imagine the mindset of terorists who also must see all of that and still keep planning more attacks.
> it must be some kind of tunnel view, only hate there, and not much more than that..
> the interview I mentioned with the Dutch guy a few days ago who was starting to radicalize for a while, does seem to support this, he also mentioned the hate speech that was standard and how finally he broke loose of it while being in the hospital with cancer, and being cared about by the people he was suppposed to hate.
> he did not know for sure if he would have come to a oint of violence, if he would have remained with the radicals, he doubted it but was not entirely sure.
>
> where is everyone by the way?
> Tom, how are you doing? long time no hear..
> M
Margaret, good night
> Otto,
> good morning, smiley.
> M
Patrick, you are too hard on Mr. Kissinger. After all, he was only hoarding dead Vietnamese bodies in his basement along with several tons of bombbons. Please save your diatribes for Mr. Nixon, Mr. Reagan, Mr Cheney, Mr. GBush, Mr. Rockefeller(20 years in jail if you are black and have one joint). After all, some dipshits in this country actually voted for them. I am sorry if I offend because I think Reagan is Irish-heritage, but he was a dirty dirty guy. If you believe the news. Listen, I can’t get a coherent post going here.Working too hard so i can make more money and receive more dental bills. I am trying to be kidding but nothing is happening. So no offense. Listen to KFI 640AM tonight Dark Secret Place at 10 on Iheart Radio. I tend to believe what this guy Brian Suits says about the wars in the Middle East, Belgium and other terrorist attacks. Good perspective, down to earth.
Otto – I have no problem with anything you say about Reagan or Ray-Gun as he was sometimes called star-wars and all that. I have been reading another book about Kennedy though I can see why so many Americans see what happened to him as a great tragedy and a kind of turning point into the kind of totally ‘lying’ world we have now. What’s kind of amazing almost more than the ‘conspiracy’ to kill him is’was the continuing ‘cover up’. Like a lie has to be maintained forever and ever………………and is it seems. We (irish) or me am glad to ‘claim’ Kennedy in many ways he seems like a modern day “Saint” almost a last gasp of truth before the aholes took over. Sort of like here in a way……………
ok margaret. good evening. you are either an extreme nightowl (your good morning to me at April 1, 2016 at 2:11 am) or an extreme morning person. Or wordpress doesnt know how to tell time.
This is long and if you are squeamish, maybe don’t read. Anyway, I did finally feel something about my recurrent nightmare which consists of something like this: Me in the dark, some killer lurking in the dark, unable to force much out of my mouth in the way of crying for help, because I am paralyzed with fear. I was triggered to this deep feeling in group last night while hearing someone else’s horrific tale. I was getting deep chills listening to him at one point, and I spoke to him about it, and I did get a big yell out of my mouth when I talked about the things I remembered about my murderous uncle’s house and his carpet cleaning slab with its strong smell of wet carpets, and I fell deeply into that feeling. Startled some people with the yell, I guess. I came very close today at the PI remembering a really horrible related event. I am at my uncle’s pigeon coop, not sure how old I am. I might have been at the pigeon coop prior to this time, making friends with the curious baby pigeon (squab), who flew over to me. My uncle then was out there later, told me to pick out one of the babies, and I did, of course it was the one who had flown over to me before. And of course he got some others, and I was not seeing him wringing their necks in this particular memory, I was just seeing their bloody lifeless headless bodies on the ground, and I felt horrible. I don’t know if I cried when he did that deed. Now right now, I remember I have seen this memory before, he wanted me to eat the cooked squab and got mad when I wouldn’t. And another insight, I can’t get it all in focus though, how I avoid getting close to some or many people because I feel I am a danger to them, in some manner like picking out the poor dead pigeon. Just a deep, kneejerk reaction, totally unconscious. I have felt many times, upon hearing about someone’s death, either on the news or whatever, that it was my fault. Weird.
I had an insight while crying today how the fearful year that I spent in military school in the 6th grade triggered me back to uncle murderer, and so I was extremely afraid to express myself, ask a girl for a date or even talk to a girl from 7th grade to still now present time. I was afraid to express myself in the military school because it got me derision from the teachers and housemother. I expressed my humor when I stayed with uncle murderer and flipped a pencil off of its perch on his ear while he was doing his taxes or something, and then he came close to killing me for doing that. I am still not sure how old I was when he did that, cant get a good picture of me in my mind, only of his heavy fat body on top of me, crushing the life out of me. I was also crying about needing his stone-cold or quiet wife to love me, but she didn’t. Her brother, my dad, had died and maybe she had never recovered from that or other horrible happenings in her life. Maybe living with the murderer made her dead inside, who knows. Maybe she was happy who knows. I can remember her wry laugh. Something else. Not that I wish I’d been born, just that I want to push back up inside and start over. Of course it manifests as a sexual feeling, but more and more, I can feel it, my face inside the birth canal. I think I was breech. I think the doctor told my mom to get up and kind of stand with her back to him, to get me out of her. Something harrowing. Maybe drowning, which is one of my worst fears.
I was sure I was not going to be able to cry again this Saturday but I did. Last dance with Mary Jane, another good song for me about loss (it was too cold to cry when I woke up alone). It took me back to my murdered friend when I was with him in his garage, folding newspapers for his paper route. I was almost completely enveloped in this memory, I cant explain what I mean, kind of like LSD, kind of like actually really being there, feeling my entire body, like standing in front of this scene, watching me and him. And all kinds of memory cells or whatever reuniting in my head. Anyway, I was talking to my friend in his garage about this Brazilian girl that I was in love with, and of course about how afraid I was to speak to her. Then I was enveloped in the memory of being in junior high, with her and another girl talking clever dirty girl shit while they were seated behind me in the rows of chairs in class, and how day after day, I was going to ask her to go out with me, after class was over. And never could. I listened to “what goes in your heart” beatles song, because one of my friends had made a little supereight film and that was the music in the background. I was supposed to go with them to make the movie but I fucked myself over somehow and didn’t go, and I felt bad about it. He could do anything, I never finished anything I tried to do. Except homework…to kill the pain.
Wow Otto: keep this up… you are getting there I just feel it in my veins. Don’t worry about it being long’ there is a lot of stuff in there for all of us on this blog.
Jack
On March 12 I bought a new car. It wasn’t easy to let go of the old one. I sold the old Corolla to a friend. I kept it for one last week while I got it ready for him and prepared for the transfer of ownership. During the last week I drove it a few more times down memory lane before I dropped it off at his place and said good-bye to it.
All of my 4 cars over 44 years have been Japanese manual transmission small economy cars, the first one a Datsun, the next 3 Toyotas. Noreen was in all of them.
My new car is a major upgrade for me. It’s bigger than the others were. It’s a sedan. It has lots of cargo and passenger space. The view out the wide front window is refreshingly expansive. The engine is bigger. The ride is quieter. My previous cars were 1.6 or 1.8 litre. This one is 2.5. It delivers exhilarating power at my request. It’s reassuring that I can count on vigorous acceleration when I need it or just for fun. And yet it gets better fuel economy than my other cars did. This car has a continuous variable transmission, ie. it is an automatic. The superb fuel economy was the final selling point for me. I want to be emitting less C02, not more, as I get older.
During the test drive, I fell instantly in love with the car. It has a sporty suspension that makes the ride somewhat stiff but produces very stable drive handling. It has heated seats. God I love heated seats. Especially in winter when the sun isn’t up or out and it’s cold, dark, frozen, slippery, menacing out there, the almost instant heat at the flick of a switch turns the seat into a warm comforting womb enveloping me. I can see how when cars become fully self-driving, the drive to work will be a time to catch a few more cozy zzzzzz’s.
The new car is step closer to my retirement. It is a step toward my future. I will retire from my job sometime between now and a year and a half from now. My new car will take my through changes as I explore where I will take life. I expect friends will ride with me sometime as we explore some of life together. As happened with my other cars. But Noreen won’t be in this one.
The purchase of my new car has catalysed grief. The feelings of pain of loss are deeper than I could let myself go before. I think that before my grief was more a dealing with being slapped in the face by loss. Now as I move toward change in my life, grief is an opening up to the deep pain and the unrelenting truth of loss.
I’ve been crying almost every other day lately. It’s good to be in the new car though.
Friday was my day off work. I thought I must have cried dry by now. But no, on Friday I was so weighed down. I felt lifeless, demoralised. I intended to follow through with my weekly routine and go to the gym that afternoon. The exercise is really important to my health. But I stayed home, disinterested in life, and instead on Friday afternoon gave myself time to cry, again.
Mom and Dad are dead, but in my crying I needed to fantasize that they are still here, in their home. I fantasized that they felt and understood the depth of my grief, and that they supported and understood my need to feel and cry the depth of my pain, to heal, that loss was an unfortunate development in my life and they were there for me through it. I fantasized that I went to visit them in their home, and seeing my grief they gave me a loving hug of emotional support, then let me break out in crying. I fantasized they let me go into one of their spare bedrooms and let me cry for hours, because they knew I needed to and they loved me and wisely sensed the depth of my hurt.
That fantasy of visiting loving parents helped me go deeper in my crying. I felt safer to go deeper knowing (in my fantasy) there was someone there who loved me when I came back up out of crying my loss. The reality is that my parents were never there for me emotionally or empathetically, when I needed them. The fantasy helped me realize again how much stronger you are and more able to take on life’s pains when you are loved.
There was a moment, 7 months before she died, when I realized Noreen was slowly, persistently losing life, not getting better. I told her what I saw and suggested we try a different treatment. She was adamant that she was getting better and didn’t want to stray from the course of treatment she was on. I didn’t want to destroy her hope. I couldn’t know if she was right and I was wrong. But I was pretty sure I was right, and that right then we had taken a fork in the road to a distinct future, and it was a future that she wouldn’t be in much longer. Here she was standing before me, the anchor and pillar of strength in my life. I couldn’t reconcile reality in the flesh with the likelihood that in the months or years ahead she would be non-existent. How could reality be so harsh!
So in crying my grief last Friday, I was back there at that fork in the road toward our future. In my fantasy while crying I saw I had moved along that road I had so dreaded, and yes reality is harsh, and she is dead.
Somehow there is healing in accepting, feeling and knowing the truth, painful though it is.
I am excited to drive my new car. It is the best thing in my life right now. But sometimes I am sad that I have it. Then I wish it is my old Corolla that is still taking me through life while still connecting me to the past and good memories.
I like you, Larry. You’re real and just say how you feel. Big hugs to you…
That is nice of you to say, Erron. I sure could use the hugs. Thanks.
here is a good movie about nuclear war. it is so old, I dont know why i never saw it before. jason robards, tim gutenberg jobeth williams. the day after on yuoutube. it was scarier to me than any scary movie i have ever seen before.
> hi folks,
> I have to do a literature study using scientific search engines and exploring scientifically acceptable data banks.
>
> I will try to start off searching for publications about or referring to Primal theory and Primal Therapy, in a broad sense, can be positive or negative, am interested in any publication, as long as it is serious.
> this is a vast field to explore and will keep me busy for months, also dealing with those search engines and results is a huge task to try to master.
>
> so here is my question, anybody knowing of an interesting publication or database, please contact me on:
> margotmeys@gmail.com
>
> I hope this can bring some fresh input in my search results and possibly new ideas for my approach.
>
> thanks, Margaret
Hey, Margaret. Don’t know if there are any rave reviews about primal therapy or theory but there has been articles written by Janov that appear in respected Journals. The ANS: the Journal for Neurocognitive Research has Abstract PDF of Janov’s latest articles on “Epigenetics and Primal” (2015); “The Origin of Anxiety” (2013), and “The Mystery Known as Depression” (2013). The address for this publication is: http//www.activas.org/index.php/nervosa
(This address is on his website blog at the bottom too.)
And he also has written lots of books, as you know.
Good luck and happy reading.
S
Margaret, Just wanted to add that Janov’s latest articles about epigenetics was also on his website ( 20 articles.)
> Sylvia,
> wow, great, thanks for the tips.
> you seem well at home in this field.
> and thanks to you too Phil, for what you sent me.
> this might become an interesting investigation, despite going to be very complex and a lot of work..
> have to think well about the angles of my approach in advance.
> M
Hi Margaret. You are welcome. I just wanted to say that if you want to read some of the articles on the Janov Center website they are as follows: The 20 articles about Epigenetics begins October 17, 2015 (1/20) and ends March12, 2016 (20/20). They are interspersed with other articles so might not be consecutive. The “Mystery known as Depression” starts November18, 2013 (part 1/6) and ends December 28, 2013 (part 6/6).
“Origins of Anxiety” starts April 10, 2013 and at the end of it says you can read the rest at the ANS Journal in abstract pdf form.
Hope this makes it easier.
S
There are other books, including by Alice Miller, Theresa Sheppard Alexander, Janice Berger, Jean Jensen, Konrad Stettbacher, and others. There is a “primal reading list” at this link:http://www.primals.org/reading.html
Phil
My Jimbo has to go back to the hospital on Friday for then to re-do the procedure they botcherd four/five weeks ago. I am already anxcious that they don’t fuck-up again. I also hope that it will be only an hour or two at the most, and that he does not need to stay longer under some other pretext or other.
Other than all that I am feeling quite good considering … that is considering what at my age, some of the bits don’t work as well as they used to … even just four years ago. But I enjoy my days and especially sitting in the sun on most clear blue skies and sunshine days. I enjoy blogging and reading my emails, but I am caught up in the election and worried that the Republican’s might retain the congress and even worse take over the presidency.
I watch the PBS news hour each night and an occasional documentary, Nova, Frontline etc. I sleep and eat well, and don’t have any major maladies and best of all I do not have a belly (though not a six pack) and nor do I have a double chin as yet.
I purposely set out to express all my feelings with whatever it takes, grunt, groans, laughter, crying, singing and even dancing … at times, some beatings of the pillow when something makes me angry. Jimbo would rather that I be silent, but that’s not my way. The fear bouts are a rarety for the moment.
So!!! there’s what’s going on for me. I do feel the world is not getting better for us humans and that saddens me. I wish I could do something about it … but seemingly I can’t.
Meantime, take great care eveeryone.
Jack
Best to you and Jimbo, Jack…
Erron: Thanks for your well wishing.
Jack
> thanks for the feedback!
> it inspired me and I could use that as I woke up feeling beat down, like ‘what do I imagine I can accomplish?’ and more practically ‘I know you can look for citations with advanced search, but does that include being referred to as well? if not how to look for those?’
>
> but hey, one step at a time.
> organizing the material I gather, keeping on the study about what and how I should be doing, and only after that trying to put it into practice with a somewhat clear plan, that can still be adjusted during the process.
> first goal is an attempt to scan the field of where primal practice and theory stand nowadays, and take samples of past reactions, good and bad, and parallel developments or possible copycats.
> also need to find proper definitions first, ‘scientifically acceptable’ of terms like ’emotion’ and ‘feeling’ and a good definition of what primal therapy and theory is about, direct quote preferably from a source I can use all the details of for referencing.
>
> those references are a separate issue, they come in all kinds of very strict formats, depending of what and where they refer to, need to be in for example style New Roman, 12 points, two spaces after name, certain brackets and certain text in italic etc. etc.
> there is software to organize it, but the software is very complicated and not infallible, so I tend to go towards trying to do it all manually..
> this course is gonna consume a lot of energy…
>
> but hopefully finding interesting stuff during the search will help.
> I might have to narrow down the search plan, have to keep thinking about it..
> M
Margaret: Good luck with all this studying and research. You do seem to be taking a great load upon yourself as well as personal matters. I hope you come out with ‘flying colors’.
Jack
i’m a horrible person. I neglected the cat and now he has severe masses of fungus in his lungs. He will probably not survive, but i have to take some actions today, get oxygen, fungus meds, etc. I feel fucking insane.
Never heard of anything like that happening. How does a cat get severe masses of fungus in his lungs. I don’t see how it’s your fault. Is it an old cat with a wonky immune system?
This is actually a response to Otto; dunno how it became you Larry.
Otto: I feel so bad for you about your cat … your dear little friend. 😦 😦 Animals are so real, for the most part. As for feeling insane … join the club … the madhouse called the human race. I’m tempted to say that you seem to be less insane than most … if only by the fact that you know you are insane. So many of us, are running around trying to PROVE we/they are not .
Jack
> Otto,
> all I can think is please make your cat feel taken care of, protected, as safe and loved as possible.
> I really can’t stand the thought of such a vulnerable creature, relying on its caretaker, feeling scared and lost and alone.
> and yes, it is partly me projecting my own feelings, but also the other part is genuine concern for the cat’s wellbeing.
> also maybe a lot of sunshine and fresh air might help him, or her.
> why was it you don’t let it go into the garden?
> coyotes?
> hope you can help it to feel comfortable and safe and loved and hopefully healthier and happier soon.
> M
> wondering what is happening, now apart from Ottto’s comment, Phil’s former comment reappears in my mail as if recently posted. my mailbox seems to be tossing around the mails from this blog and from the other one, rearranging them in various ways. as if I haven’t had enough digital confusion for one day..
> M
> ha thanks Jack, smiley, hope I get through it somehow, flying colours or not.. even a shade of grey would feel satisfying, anything to keep moving forward..
> reached out for local help a bit already.
> feel frustrated right now, but somehow this must be possible to deal with..
> I never want to give in to a machine..
> so far am still on the winning hand in general..
> M
Margaret: What I have found works best for me is to ENJOY what I do as best I know how. That does not necessarily mean I don’t struggle but if the struggle is not enjoyable to a major extent then I would not want to indulge it.
All this is just me of course, but I do feel there has been some misunderstanding about the word “STUGGLE” as if all struggles are unpleasant. In my case the struggles I had with developing software at Gentle Giant was not unpleasant. I loved that kind of work and the feeling that I might beat the machine (I didn’t),. The other aspect is under-going unpleasantness in order to feel great achievement. That was never my forte.
Jack
Addendum to my last comment on struggling:- My first and biggest struggle was at the point of birth. It took me 9 hours (according to my mother) to get her pelvis opened up before I was able to squeeze out I felt it was time to get outta there, and then after the many hours of struggle I made it … only to be then wrapped in ‘swaddling clothes’ and put in a nursery for half an hour to giver my mother some respite after here part of the ordeal.
I felt there was something wrong about being taken away from ‘my mammy’ and was (according to my father viewing me through some window) screaming ‘blue murder” whilst he thought that was “wonderful’ Stupid twat!!!!!
Much of my current crying takes me right back to that moment.
Was that struggle worth it??? well I obviously felt it was … though I suspect other might feel differently. There!!! that’s me again; going on about struggling.
Jack
P.S. Thanks Margaret; for your well wishes
> there we go again, I get the comment from Jack, and then another mail as well, with once more Phils comment about the books.
> every time or often, when a comment arrives, one of the former comments seems to be sent again as well, I notice it by the time of its arrival, and it appearing as a new one..
> hope it is not a bug that sneaked into my laptop while struggling with those engines and websites…
>
> and Jack, hope all goes well tomorrow for Jim and so for you as well.
> hope he will be home soon ready to recover with you caring about him and bringing him tea and cookies etcetera.
> take care, M
Margaret,
Maybe that’s a hint for you by the universe that my old message has special significance.
Or some type of conspiracy or setup for you to ponder.
Phil
Margaret,
Maybe that’s a hint for you by the universe that my old message has special significance.
Or some type of conspiracy or setup for you to ponder.
Phi
> Phil,
> haha, that might well be the case! it might also be the universe telling me I have been procrastinating copying and organizing the links and data provided in all the mails so far..
> will do so first thing tomorrow, universe, promise..
> all these books, some seemingly very good, others less so, are a good example of some of the influence of primal theory on a relatively small scale, one of my plans is to also scan the Dutch and Belgian literature for hits, at some point, when I am able to do so, while also limiting time spans and using ‘Boolean search operators, wildcats and jokers. they sound very interesting, to narrow down and specify searches. but so far have only found an explanation of them to use on Delpher, which only searches for literature from the 1600’s until 1995..
> very useful there using the * and ? as spelling differs in that timespan, smiley..
> M
> Jack,
> I am organizing all the info I received so far, and ran into your mail about your books.
> I have read the first one but it would be nice if you could also e-mail me the pdf version of the self help one, I am curious to read it.
> thanks, and who knows, you might end up as a citation in my assignment, smiley..
> M
Margaret: I’ll send it to you via your email which I have. Most of the stuff in it and perhaps a lot more you already know, BUT I always think it’s interesting how others see things. Enjoy.
Jack
Margaret: I don’t on second looking have your email address. I know it starts with ‘margomeys@ but the IPS can’t remember. So just send me an email jackwaddinggton@yahoo.com
it does not need a message so I can reply to it and also put you on my email list.
Jack
> Phil,
> thanks again for your good suggestions lately.
> have sorted all the material out, links and titles still to be further explored in one file, more complete articles in other files, and files with summaries of the course and summaries of the chronology of the sources etc.
> feels good to be more or less organized up to this point, will now concentrate again on the course for a while, until I found some assistance to learn how to properly use the search engines and select and download the material I am interested in..
> tired but satisfied with a lot of work done today.
>
> Otto, how are you, and how is your cat?
> all those worries and heartache about your pets must be wearing you out.
> wish there was a way I could help, but can only say I care.
> what helped me (and probably my cat), was to ask the vet when she said it was really the best thing to do for her to put her down as she’d keep getting worse and was already about to start feeling very bad, to ask her to mix the ketamine they usually use with some opiates, as to avoid the bad reaction that in rare cases does happen with only ketamine.
> from my own experience I know it is certain that way the last feeling will definitely not be one of fear for the cat, but one of rosy relaxation.
> kept holding her and talking to her all the way.
> still it remains so painful to have to say goodbye and you have had to
> do so so often lately.
>
> M
> jack
> ,
> keeping my fingers crossed for your Jimbo today.
> better don’t tell him this time, smiley, M
Hi Everyone: My Jimbo is back home, all safe and sound with only a few aches but not many. It’s not the end of the problem, but the next step is relatively simple.
I am so, so happy to have him home after only four hour at the hospital, BUT he did not want me to accompany him there or collect him as he would (so he said) have worried about me, worrying about him. But I did anyway. Still!!! all’s well that ends well.
Jack
Good news to hear Jack!
Perhaps it is hard to rely on others – but so good when we can 🙂
L
Leslie: Thanks … I actually don’t have a problem relying on others. Not sure why that is, but I do know that Jimbo hates having to rely on others. Asking for help was something my mother always drummed into us “Don’t be afraid to ask” What does bother me:- if on asking for help I don’t get quite what I was asking for.
That could be bad communication on my part.
Jack
too tired to talk. cat is ok today, but probably not going to make it. $$$ for amphotericin infusion that hurt his kidneys too much to continue with it. day by day. mostly all my carelessness led to this.
All these computer glitches may be caused by these cyber guys attacking and wanting money. Yesterday all my email messages that I had saved just mysteriously vanished. The rest of the computer seems to be intact.
The advice being suggested out there is to NOT OPEN email that seem suspicious and back-up regularly if you have and external drive to back-up to and disconnect it after backing up.
If one is saving special photos and mails and wrings it can be a real ‘ball ache’ if you get hacked but I would suggest never to pay there scam artists.
Jack
> went to get my I-phone 5.SE, still have to synchronize it with the laptop, but just exploring a bit was amazing.
>
> a small example, I have Voice Over switched on, the screenreader, and we tried the camera, my brother simply aimed at me, and it says: face, face near, face further..
> isn’t that amazing, it tells you when you aim at a face, hope it also recognizes ‘cat, or two cats, as it actually did also say the number of faces it spotted.
> it is great, finally a way for me to make pictures without getting only shoulders or hair, or even feet..
> and then when we took the picture, it immediately said where it was taken, automatically checked by the gps..
> tomorrow my Voice Over super asssistant will come by and help me to set it all to my preferences and get me going.
> very glad with it, as good and much cheaper and smaller than the 6 version.
> glad I bought it!!
> M
After waking up this morning on hearing the alarm, I turned it off and turned over meaning to just have a few minutes snooze, before getting up, taking my little walk up the park and then coming back to fix my breakfast.
Three hours later I awoke after a very very alarming dream. I remember from Art’s writings that the feelings in our dreams are true; but the scenes we make up from what had been going on earlier.
On waking up I was in a strange state of feeling very unsafe and not knowing where I was. In the dream I was totally, totally LOST and did not know how to find my ‘way back home’. The insights after waking took me right back to that moment when I was born and they wrapped me in the ‘swaddling clothes’ and put me, for half an hour. in that nursery. The feeling for the baby me was:- I WAS TOTALLY, TOTALLY LOST AND KNEW NOT WHERE WAS … OR WHY.
It was a pure feeling, and in-spite of this comment, beyond explanation. Half an hour meant little or nothing to those that put me there, but to the baby me, half and hour was an eternity.
I’m still reeling.
Jack
More insights: All my life I’ve needed to understand … even about b being confused.
What a twist of paradox.
Jack
Very interesting feeling, Jack. You probably will get more insights. I wonder if it will affect your patience quotient in the future, so that waiting for something will be easier.
Syvia: “My patience quotient???? What’s that? As long as I can go on feeling, old or new stuff, and knock off some of that thinking stuff; then I will be relatively happy. Whatever “relative” signifies.
Thanks for the response Sylvia; Jack
Was just thinking, Jack, babies are impatient to be with Mom when separated. But your feeling and connection about being confused and lost was the main point of your feeling. A big feeling in itself. I was misreading a different feeling into it of impatience. Good that your feeling was so deep.
Sylvia: thanks for your reply and encouragement. I would disagree only that babies are “impatient” to be with mom. I feel it is “traumatic” when separated from mom; especially immediately after birth.
Jack
Jack, yes, babies are terrified, as they grow– are fretful, and later on in childhood– are impatient.
Jack, I resonate with this. Infants can only feel on the cellular visceral level, the primitive brainstem level, where only two extremes exist, either warmth, safety and comfort, or abject terror, aloneness and gut wrenching longing. There is no cognitive mind which tells the infant that mommy is right in the next room. And these imprints are the most enduring, the most challenging to face, to mitigate, or to heal.
But it made me think of a time probably 20 years ago Jack, when you were a young man about the age I am now, in your sixties, where, after coming to the retreats for probably 20 years, never really having your moment in group, being “just a fixture” at the retreats, somewhat annoying with your need to be heard and your incessant talking, when one day, you got the floor in group.
I hopeyou don’t mind me bringing this up, but it was at that moment that my empathy for you deepened and I understood who you were. You may not remember this, but I bet Leslie does, but you told a story about how your father picked you up and threw you against the wall with such force, because you wouldn’t stop crying, that you never dried again.
Now, it’s hard to convey the compassion and the utter silence that was present in the room at that moment, or how so many of us were also triggered by this profound moment and in tears, but I remember how Vivian and Barry handled that moment, where Vivian said she would never let you go and how she would always be there for you, and how Barry said the same. The whole room was with you Jack. Through the years, both Vivian and Barry has lived yup to that commitment, and I saw you deep into your core feeling for real Jack. You were very real to me in that moment.
You hold the full history and story of the Primal experience and you should tell it. No one else does that I am aware of. I think Vicki could corroborate, and some other long time patients, but you have that voice now that was silenced so many years ago when you were just two.
Ted: Interesting reply to mine, but I never felt I didn’t get my moments. I think I cried most days, but didn’t feel I needed to make an issue of it.
I do remember being young but 60+ isn’t young to me. However I do remember that moment of telling, but was totally unaware that the group was with me. I was always aware that there were many that did not particularly like me. I was never sure quite why, but did have some vague ideas. Now I possess a Smart Car to fit with my personallity … being a smart arse (ass for Americans). You know one of this little ‘dinkie’ things that only fit two and Isn’t a sport car.
Meantime Ted hope you are doing ok for sixty-ish, but I do suggest that it’s not a good idea getting old. Too many bit starts to drop off.
Jack
wow…
” I think I cried most days, but didn’t feel I needed to make an issue of it.” sounds like a whole world in that statement, Jack.
Thought you might like this Otto!
(It is a music video Margaret – the song “Spirits” by the Canadian group The Strumbellas).
L
Thanks Leslie. Their ( The Strumbellas) “Shovels and Dirt” is pretty good too, Otto.
“Cry, Cry, Cry…Take a day off from work or school and simply cry your heart out. It may seem like torture at the time to devote yourself a day to thinking about your pet; but crying and releasing these emotions of grief does a great deal towards our ultimate healing. Locking away grief doesn’t make it go away. Express it. Cry, scream, pound the floor, whatever you need to do.” Petfriends magazine. Mei Mei hanging in there.
ok listening to strumbellas. thanks for the tip
somehow they reminded me of jethro tull. hmm
Just catching up on the posts. Margaret, it was actually the cat’s begging to go outside into the garden, and me giving in, knowing full well that the 2 times before that he got cryptococcus fungus, that it was probably outside in the garden that he inhaled those spores. i swear, my brain is just utterly fucked-up. I shoot myself in the foot constantly. damn. Thankfully I can go to work tomorrow and play with my spreadsheets and my netrwork commands and numb the hell out of my feeling self for a while.
Jack thanks for the kind words. Larry, i never knew before how strong and deadly fungi were. the vet said yesterday that their cells are more mammalian than bacterias cells are, so it is harder to kill them without killing the host they are living on. Crypto is apparently a well-known disease/fungus in California, like Valley Fever, another fungus. They will live on long after mankind has destroyed itself. going to bed. getting up 3:30 to do overtime to pay the vets. ha. thought i was going to get ahead this time! hahaha
> Otto,
> that is a big dilemma.
> the cat wanting desperately to go out and you knowing the risk exists of it getting the fungus.
> still, I would think the cat should lead its normal life as much as possible, if it gets the fungus, it might be a sign of very poor immune system for some reason. and too much stress by being locked in all the time will make that worse, and it will also be unhappy.
> that seems like a very hard situation, is the vets advice to keep it indoors?
> is there any way to control the fungus more or less while letting the cat have a normal life?
> are there specific spots in a garden where that fungus might thrive, which you could do something about, like draining them for example?
> sorry about me trying to problem solve but I guess I feel bad both for you and for the poor cat being in such a difficult and painful situation all the time, makes me want to help.
> hang in there. I did like very much what the article in the pet magazine said.
> never did I cry so much and so deeply and so painfully as after losing my former cat.
> she is still on my mind, it is almost one year ago now.
> at the same time it shows how deeply you care.
> all the best for you and the cat, M
> I do not entirely agree with the emotional state of small babies being either comfortable or in terror.
> there is a gradation, in my experience, a lot of my primal crying has been baby crying, which goes from non-distressed functional crying as a means to reach out, to give a signal of wanting to be paid attention to for some reason, which may then shift to more distress when that attention does not come.
> then there is a range varying from impatience, anger, agony and despair to sadness and hopelessness and lonely sorrow.
> of course terror might occur in some situations, with which I have less experience.
> another interesting matter that struck me a number of times while crying, is how there really is a clear difference between the ‘depth’ of the emotion, when really small baby crying it actually feels, compared to more adult crying, as both physically and emotionally more shallow, or superficial in some way, not in its impact but in some physical way, probably because of the brain still being less mature, it really feels different.
> that is the experience I have felt repeatedly.
> this does not imply the effect of the experienced pain and unmet need would be also more superficial, on the contrary, this young growing brain is so fragile and vulnerable and wide open.
> it simply, for me, illustrates so well how real those primal feelings are, completely reflecting the old situation and experience.
> also it might be one reason why present pain is more deeply painful, as it is felt with the entirely developed present adult brain, in all its intensity, while in the present reliving baby feelings are felt with only the early part of that same brain.
> now up to now this goes for me for the feelings I have dealt with so far, maybe for truely life threatening stuff or the terror Ted referred to it might be different.
> for me those feelings of terror of dying only seem to show up in my dreams so far, with just a few exceptions now and then.
> this for me is such interesting material, it is really a shame these experiences are so hard to convey or measure or ‘prove’ to anyone that has not experienced them in some way.
> I wish groups were still videotaped, it would be easier to make case studies or explore effects.
> guess I should look into the material on Janov’s website soon to get some idea of what is there, for some reason i keep postponing it..
> so much to do actually, but will get there at some point.
> as feelings are dealt with they tend for me to disappear out of my system, making it hard to remember the history of my own primal journey, except of some main milestones.
> wish i could reread about my own followed steps..
> or even somebody else’s , it would be interesting to try to find common patterns in patients evolutions that reflect feelings dealt with and changes in behavior or emotional and physecal wellbeing.
> just thinking out loud, wishful thinking.
> would be interesting to to compare those kind of data between therapies, looking for breakthroughs, changes, resolving, relief, improvments or failure.
> am aware of never being able to do any of that, but is an intersting matter to think about for me..
> not restricted to the primal aproach, more so focusing on allowing emotions and making connections, unrelated to the setting it occurs in.
> M
> ran into this quote from Mark Twain, which i liked:
> ‘sing as if nobody is listening,
> love as if you’ve never been hurt,
> dance as if no one is watching,
> live as if this is heaven on earth.’
> M
There’s an idea, Margaret. Have people here tell how the therapy has changed them and what feelings felt helped to change a behavior. I use to have panic attacks (probably from feeling scared as an infant.) I let myself sink into it instead of fighting it. I still get them but it’s over quickly. It has made me calmer to where I can read instructions and understand them. I can watch a movie and pay attention and enjoy it, where as before my mind was too busy to focus on the subtleties. I wonder if it’s because the brain wave amplitude and frequency lowers, which Janov has noted.
When you check out Janov’s website just think of it as something fun and different; no need to jump into anything serious like research.
Have a good day.
S
> hi Sylvia,
> you are right, I should just take a look at it without putting pressure on myself.
> thanks for telling us some about how therapy made changes for you.
> thinking about it, an important feeling in general for me was the very first one during my intensive, crying while telling my dad over and over ‘I am a girl!’
> seems there was some pain there about being scolded and disapproved of for being too boyish..
> and I remember coming into therapy saying I had a perfect childhood, and being proud of not needing anyone, and saying I only wanted male friends ..
>
> all those things have changed big time..
> now all my best friends are female, while I also have very close male friends, actuallly some of them better than some females, but still there is a natural connection with females I had completely cut off, only saw them as rivals before.
> and despite entering therapy as a ‘tough’ person, I now know I was not really in control as most of my drives were disguised old pains, out of my awareeness but making me make a large number of very bad choices.
>
> specially chasing for love in the wrong places, picking out men who were not very interested, struggling to ‘conquer’them, recreating childhood, while now the main attraction of someone is them being interested genuinely in me.
> or well, that is a mmain prerogative apart from some other qualities..
> over the years I also learned to rely on my own judgment, and to like myself.
>
> still learning to be vulnerable, a great asset..
>
> it is all gaining depth, loving, sadness, capacity of having fun..
> feeling the unmet need about my dad, and the mixed up tangle of feelings about my mom, anger, need, despair, fear and sadness, helping me to keep growing.
>
> these things are so basic, so important, but hard to measure in the empirical ways the scientific approach tends to require..
> certainly should check out Janov’s publications, as only indirect measurments of stress levels and brain waves and blood pressure might bring some help to deal with this aspect.
> and otherwise good questionnaires possibly, but they tend to remain too vague and general so much of the time..
>
> maybe to give a good description of what Primal has to offer, case studies would be more telling..
> but maybe I should let it go..
> have to read and learn more, know too little still for sure.
> M
Great idea Sylvia! Are you sure you are not Gretchen’s cousin or something 🙂
Anyway, I entered therapy with a huge eating disorder – obsessive/ compulsive about it all and as hidden as I could possibly manage at any given time. It was all I wanted addressed in therapy as so many good people and things were in my life by that time.
But no – that was not to be and very slowly tiny cracks and inroads were encouraged to open by Gretchen and the the Primal Institute and other people there. My deep, dark feelings of inadequacy bubbled up as I realized how not having my dad’s love and attention and absorbing my mom’s way of coping through denial affected me so fundamentally.
I am forever grateful for Primal Therapy and love how I can truly continue to unravel and therefore grow. That B. and I get to share our lives together and have had the openness, honesty and love that truly connecting can bring is amazing!!
There has been great pain and that feels horrendous at the time – but being able to be alive to feel what I can, when I can – has brought both a calmness and a vitality to living my life.
L
Leslie and Margaret, so like your sharing–so clear in your thoughts and feelings. It is something to know where you’ve come from and how going back there became freeing. Blotting out the past would get us nowhere, huh.
I can identify with having male friends, Margaret. I had brother siblings and growing up would copy them, play sports with and seek approval from them. When my mom would disapprovingly point out that I had awkward movements like a boy I was disheartened.
I had a strong bond with my mom, but at the same time she was very critical. I think that duo-relationship lasted until her very end.
Margaret, what I liked best on Janov’s site was the interviews with patients who talked about their therapy. Frank, Dan, Artie, Ken, and Marmot give interesting accounts of how they were and how they have changed. There is also radio interviews on the site. Just have fun with it whenever you decide to explore it.
TGIF and thank goodness for girls and boys friends.
S
> Sylvia, Leslie,
> would you feel OK about me copying and keeping those last comments and save them?
> if ever I’d want to use them I could just refer to the blog in general as the source.
> it is just that it is so interesting to hear about what primal can do for people.
> so many different things.
> i will certainly explore Janovs site, sounds interesting.
> thanks, ps I love my Iphone, have already made 54 photos with it, smiley, gonna sort out the good from the bad with my brother tomorrow.
> such a good tool, and accessible with visual disability too.
M
Margaret, is okay by me. And who knows, you might get some guys here to talk a bit too.
S
Yes, sure Margaret that is fine with me.
Looking forward to talking to you in person too!
L
Just to chip in as one of the guys: What I got out of my therapy was the REAL me. The one that grunts, groans, laughs, cried, sings and dances, then sometime the need to thump a pillow and cry-out every expletive I can think of, and lastly but thankfully more rare these days the screams of terrors.
What more is there to get out of life???? It’s getting back to the way it was both in the womb and afterwards … before daddy beat the shit out of me for ‘expressing’ myself.
I have a relationship …not perfect … are they ever? a roof over my head and three meals a day and a comfortable bed.
Will be interested in how others tell us what they got.
Jack
I’d like to add to this. I went into therapy having big problems with shyness and anxiety that were making it difficult to function and enjoy life. Also I was quite depressed and down on myself because of all of that, actually feeling suicidal. The therapy had an immediate benefit of helping me move out of the stuck place I was in at that moment to get on with my life.
Over the years I have experienced a great reduction of those symptoms. In fact, those are no longer the things I talk about. It’s all the crying that’s achieved that and then getting to specifics of how I was abandoned, punished, and neglected especially by my mother, and then lost her
at a young age. This is what I thought going in but didn’t know how deeply embedded that all was and how difficult to get to. Also, my father was never really there for me in the way I needed.
Therapy helped me to have relationships and I’m with my wife for 26 years. It’s given me back my history so that I have a perspective on my life. It’s a continuous process and tool to use
as problems arise.
Phil
> Phil, Sylvia, Leslie,
> I was very touched reading your comments.
> they come across to me as gems, refined and concise,, products of pressure, suffering and hard work, but now shining with increasing beauty.
> thanks for sharing, M
Margaret, we got the cat some very expensive medicine and he seems to be improving, although the vets have said his lungs are trashed and he is probably going to die from crypto. When he pays me back the (*Y(UTIHG of dollars i have spent on him, he can go into the back yard. I have a little cart that i bought for my dead dachshund, i might get enough energy to put him in it and take him for a walk in the park with Sophie tomorrow. I have a funny old pharmacist friend who i use to work with, always acting the tough guy. I asked him how much i should shake the bottle of medicine, because i wanted to make sure the cat was not getting too much or too little of the expensive drug. He mildly chastised me about the cost of the drug and suggested i just let the cat outside for the coyotes to get. He is a riot, always picks up my spirits because he always says funny stuff. Even if it sounds mean.
You know what really got me crying today was the Monday Monday song by the Mamas and the Papas. Another good song of loss. The sweet sweet sad voice of the Papa who is the main singer in this song.
Monday, Monday, so good to me
Monday mornin’, it was all I hoped it would be
Oh Monday mornin’, Monday mornin’ couldn’t guarantee
That Monday evenin’ you would still be here with me
Monday, Monday, can’t trust that day
Monday, Monday, sometimes it just turns out that way <<<<<<<<<WOW!! That just about describes life to a T.
Oh Monday mornin' you gave me no warnin' of what was to be <<<WOW. So true in my life as a baby that fateful day I was torn away from my mom.
Oh Monday, Monday, how could you leave and not take me<<<<<<<<<WOW AGAIN !! OUCH.
Chokes me up still.
Took me right back to being with my mom at 10 months in my grandmothers big house in San Gabriel. So close to the feeling, pulled right into it almost like a vortex, crying crying crying deeply and the pushing up from my chest and maybe the rest of my body into my head, maybe reuniting me with myself. Seeing my young aunt standing outside in her cute little 50’s dress. Seeing someone cooking in the kitchen. Seeing the stairs that led up to my mom’s room where she and I slept, and the window in there, and her piano downstairs. (at the same time, I was seeing in my mind the apartment that I lived in for a while after I got out of the Navy, it had a similar staircase, not sure why that crept into my thoughts but it did).I can never really finish this feeling, but seem to get closer to it all the time. I love the crying but I don’t know if I have had a any relief yet. Maybe I can get closer to people. Not much. I am sure I have benefited from therapy, but I don’t feel like thinking about that now. The crying was not infant crying or wailing, but adult crying, I figured out that maybe I cried enough at the time 63 years ago, and now I just had to mop up, to finish the crying where I left off so many years ago, when the uselessness of continuing to cry, or the callous reactions to my crying as a baby just made me stop crying at some point. That thought came to me today, since I am always worried that I am doing PT wrong and so I have often wondered why I always could look back and SEE things from an early age, but I would be crying always as an adult while seeing that stuff. I am thinking that I have a long way to go with this feeling, as it as branched out to every second of my life since I lost her at age 10 months.
I was watching the Monday, Monday song last night on youtube and all I wanted to do was feast my eyes on skinny Michelle Phillips and I realized today that she reminded me of my mom who was quite slim, probably from growing up in the Depression. And when I ssy “feast”, I am being literal, as I have been hungry since my mom stopped feeding me many years ago. CLOSENESS, JOINED AT THE HIP TO MY MOM. I COULD ALMOST FEEL THAT CLOSENESS AGAIN.
Otto Wow!!!!! that was so moving, revealing and so feeling-full as I saw and felt it. You seem to me to going in the right direction and yet I know that feeling :- “am I doing this thing right”?????
For what it’s worth it couldn’t be more right, as I see it, and it was very inspiring to me, AND I feel will be to many others.
Great Otto … keep on blogging.
Jack
I was going upwards to see where i left off reading, and saw 2 thing. Here is the original Remembering summer (i think). i have it as a favoruite, and just go there to get to this blog, and then click on Remembering Summer part 5. *****https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2015/01/06/remembering-summer/******** leave out stars
Also this is my email elefantmans@gmail.com. I rarely go to it because i never get anything, but if you will send me this fucking wine ad that has been talked about, i would appreciate it. Listen, women are objects to men’s lizard brains, like a flower is to a bee. That is Mother Nature’s trick for keeping life going on and on. I am sorry, this is not my design, i just have to live with it, and I try to be respectful of women,for example,I try not look at other women when my wife is around, actually if there if a noticeably overly-attractive women, she looks and me and smiles first. I am really too much of a coward to look at most women anyways. In fact, I pretty much hate men, having been brought up as a woman somewhat by my man-hating grandmother. anyway, lets revel in our sexuality, if possible, because soon it fades a little. or more. i was trying to find a wine or beer ad in which the guy is on a date with a girl, and he is enjoying his glass of booze so much that he is licking the glass clean vigorously, so the young lady proceeds to dump her glass of booze on her lap. HA! I don’t find that to be offensive, but I guess it could be seen as offensive. not. sorry sorry sorry…
I do REMEMBER SUMMER. In fact it is so hot here in L.A., it feels like summer. In April. what a joke. I will say one last thing. I am sitting in my sweltering fungus filled garden, and I thought, how comforting that i can say my stupid shit on this blog, and not be worried that someone is going to take a 2 by 4 upside my head for what i said. now i dont know if someone threatened me that way or did something like that to me in my childhood, to quiet the sounds that come out my mouth, but why the hell did that image pop into my head?
Otto: It doesn’t matter … the image came and you and you wrote about it. If the image is going to make sense; give it time.
To me Primal Therapy is abouty all those images that pop into our heads and expressing them … . on the blog, or otherwise.
Hope my interjections don’s upset you … they inspire me .. your comments that is.
Jack
kids next door are running and screaming and having the time of their lives! me and the 2 dogs and sick cat are sitting around doing nothing and being bored. lady and the kid took the car to go to target. if i had the car, i still would not go do anything fun. maybe i will work on that issue in my little time left here. right. tired. 6 day work week of 10 hour days to pay for the cat’s rx. cant complain.
Just another relaxing Sunday. Went early to get a haircut, so I would be the first one there. It panics me to get haircuts, not sure why. Got all hair buzzed off, so Z sees me coming in the house and says how sexy I look, and I am worried she will want sex, because I really am not in the mood for intimacy. Big dog wants to go in the backyard, so I have to go and wait with her because she has jumped over the fence when we were in Tucson and almost mauled the dog in the other yard. So I sit in my chair surrounded my chairs full of drying laundry because it was impossible for me to fix the dryer. It is not too hot yet, as I sit under the towering pine tree that I got saved, even though I finally figured out why the neighbors hate it; it would destroy all our houses if it fell over, as some trees tend to do during droughts/high winde and heat, which we have had more and more of. Sitting under the pine trees brings up a memory of when I was in Junior High or so, visiting my cousins in Lake Arrowhead, and I really had nothing to do while my grandmother and my aunt were hanging out together, so I was reading an encyclopedia on th porch under the pine trees, with the wind surging and slowing through the branches. And I was lonely; things had changed. I used to hang out with one of my cousins, and my brother would hang out with the older cousin. But the older cousin had graduated High School and moved out, and so my brother now hung out with the younger cousin, so I was left alone. Apparently the younger cousin had his own separate room downstairs and was making out with girls all the time because my grandmother was complaining about the “monkey bites” he had all over his neck. So I am sitting alone reading an encyclopedia and my youngest girl cousin comes by with a girlfriend, who says she never saw somebody just reading an encyclopedia. And no grandma nor aunt pulls me into the 2 girls little circle, like you would see in a heart-warming movie, to help me out of my loneliness, and I certainly cannot get into their circle myself, because of my horrible adolescent fear of girls, so my wall pushes the 2 girls away, and I go back to reading useless information. Then back to present day reality. Suddenly the baby squirrel that my wife feeds in the front of the house is on the roof and it jumps onto our electric cable and I sat with bated breath hoping it did not fry itself but it scurried, stopped and then scurried all the way to the tiniest of branches up inside of the pine tree. Tara the dog did not notice right away or she was enjoying herself in the sun too much. In the distance I could hear the mockingbirds who stay up all day and night now singing, and also the hawk that eats every animal in the neighborhood and I hate it for that, and also I heard the lonely dog a house over, barking as it does, as it’s only joy in life. Then I saw the hawk land in the pine tree in full view, and I got up hoping I could shew him away, since he was very near where the squirrel had been, and then I heard a plop in the branches very near me, and I saw a rodent body, bloody somewhat, I was not sure if it was the squirrel that I had just seen, but lookin g closer, it appeared to be a big mouse, of which we have many. Just really the head and back skin were left. I have no idea why that hawk dropped that by me, and then flew off. You know what, if I get a chance, I hope we can move out of this fucking place into an apartment. Just another relaxing Sunday of nothingness and loneliness and I will be glad to get back to work tomorrow. Now have to hydrate the sick cat and try not to notice the fact that he is not really getting any better. Nice day, Z will say later. Not through my eyes, I wont say, since what is the use of telling her of my misery, I never get anything out of it if I do. Maybe we go walk the dangerous dog at Tree People, get Z some Mexican food, take a nap, get Z some groceries, try to keep Sophie the dachshund from being too lonely. My one day off this week. The crying did not seem to bring much relief. My fucking life is over, day after day. HA!
Jack, you sweetie! Thanks for your caring. I really like it.
Otto: that makes me feel good too. Thanks Otto
Jack
> am going to a lecture this evening about Transactional Analysis, seems to be some kind of more short term kind of analysis than the original theoretical Freudian kind, this one focusing on the interaction therapist/client.
> just curious, and hoping also to find someone there, a fellow student, to help me with those search engines for literature study…
>
> M
Horrible dreams and nightmares about horrible careless decisions i made both as an adult AND as a kid. I feel like a dimwad for posting this, but whatever.
Hi, Otto. Isn’t feeling hurts fun–not. Hope you have better dreams. Don’t know if anyone sent you the address of wine commercial, but you can find it by Googling: Australian Wine Ad.
S
Otto: If you can be this honest and so straight, simple and direct about it as you seem to be on this post then, I feel you have nothing to worry about.
How many of us are willing enough to admit the number of mistakes we make just in a single day. That takes some courage.
Jack
My experience with nightmares, after I started therapy, was that they are feelings on the rise, from unconsciousness to conscious awareness. It is in the feeling that the nightmare makes sense. The nightmare is a symbolic way of dealing with the feelings on the rise that we aren’t quite ready yet to fully see and connect to the reality of our lives.
I remember a nightmare during my first year of therapy, where I was on the run from the Mafia. I ran down back alleys and around corners just managing to evade them, and yet they were so many and always finding me and always getting closer.
As much as I always tried to run away, I could never escape from them, and I kind of knew in the dream that I never would. I ran into a house, then into a room that had only one way out…the door through which they were pursuing me. My back against the wall, I stood to face my pursuers. I watched them unload their Tommy guns into me. I saw the bullets approach in slow motion. I saw them enter my chest cavity and spatter my blood, in slow motion. I watched and experienced my ending, knowing that in another moment I would begin to die. But it was a relief to finally stop running with no hope of escape.
Awake, I sensed that the dream was about running away from my neurosis but never being able to escape, and finally stopping running and letting my neurotic self and neurotic hope die.
Larry, I’ve never experienced death in my nightmares, but only that ‘they’ are out to get me. I awake before they do–feeling terrified. Someone is always around the corner ready to pounce. Your feeling of dying sounds like what Dr. Holden wrote in the early primal literature as a parasympathetic response. I’m thinking that you felt more alive after the feeling, accepting and getting that death feeling out somewhat.
But those dreams don’t feel good, do they. I’m thinking it’s the defenses giving away before they should, and being overwhelmed.
No Sylvia, I never had the feeling that it was a death feeling coming up. I didn’t feel like my defenses were being overwhelmed.
Before therapy, I had many nightmares of being pursued, by Mafia, pirates, German soldiers, you name it and just barely escaping around a corner or into a dark alley, but always my pursuers caught up to me and I had to keep running and never got forever away.
The nightmare that I described on April 20, which happened near the beginning of my therapy, was the first time in my nightmares where I dealt with the consequences of stopping running and instead facing my pursuers, the result being that something in me began to die. After focusing on the feeling of the dream for days, I thought how different this one was from all my previous many running away nightmares. This one was different in my stopping and facing my pursuers and the consequences. The only way the dream made sense to me was that I had recently started therapy and was facing the painful consequences of stopping running from my neuroses, letting my neurotic self die, gradually.
But I’ve had a lot of painful feelings to run from over the decades and still do, and over the decades I’ve faced and felt a lot of my painful truths. It’s never been easy but always rewarding in the end to face pain when ready, and I’ve become a more whole, complete, full living person for it.
Still have a way to go though.
I don’t dream much, or I don’t remember them much, and when I do remember them, I can sort of see how they are symbolically connected to some pain on the rise and I’m glad it is because it means primals and progress are on the way. I also appreciate at the time that the nightmare is just a shade of what the entire feeling is about, and that I will open to the feeling only if and when I am ready, and it will be great relief to finally open up to and get into the real feeling. It is an awesome place to be finally in the feeling, versus being only on the edge of it and carrying the heavy weight of it without resolution which is how we mostly go through life I think.
I had more and memorable nightmares before I started therapy. One that stands out is that I was tied down and a German soldier was about to torture me by pounding my balls to a pulp. In another nightmare I was sword fighting a pirate who had only one good leg. We were on the roof of a house. I didn’t want to hurt him. I was a very good sword fighter. I could have easily overwhelmed him because he had only one good leg. I’d hoped he would soon realize the great disadvantage he was at. I back tracked up to the peak of the roof, calmly scratching him with my sword now and then so he could understand I was the superior sword fighter and in control. But he kept advancing toward me, trying to kill me. I backed down the other side of the roof, him pursuing me and me still not wanting to hurt him, until I was at the edge and about to fall off the roof and be killed, and thought, I should have killed him or cut off his arm when i had the chance. Instead, trying to be the nice guy is going to get me killed. That nightmare, before therapy, told me that I need to be more aggressive in looking out for myself.
Larry, I agree too, that the more we feel and resolve, the better life becomes. I never know where my next feeling will come from. I’m dealing with how my siblings sometimes saw me as a nuisance having to look after me when we would go to the show or I’d tag along on their adventures. It doesn’t feel good to know we aren’t always liked.
Anyways, our personalities are made from old feelings, I guess. It’s interesting to see what will pop up next.
S
> Otto,
> although nightmares can be truely horrible, they are a sign you are processing the feelings.
> I have had nightmares about similar feelings, I mean sets of nightmares about terror, about drug use, about family members etc,, all starting off being nothing but horrible, but I noticed over time they keep slightly shifting towards becoing better or finding some resolution.
> for example my worst fears are occasionally focused on spiders, well, I can’t tell you haw many dreams I have had about suddenly noticing a huge, or many huge black spiders on a ceiling right above my head, becoming paralized with therror.
> then after many years I had a dream in which one giant spider actually started to creep on me while Iwas laying on the floor, not able to move, and horror of all horrors, it was reaching my face and I knew it was gonna crawl over it.
> then I just gave in and thought, well, I better face it, I can’t do nothing else but let it happen, and closed my eyes, let it crawl over my face.
> to my surprise it was not so bad, and when I woke up it actually felt like finally I had ‘faced’ the worst..
> now recently again I dreamed about some spiders on a ceiling, so it is not a small task, but my point is there is a goal and a usefullness of those nightmares, they in my opinion are one way in to feelings we have a hard time accessing while awake.
>
> I have been stabbed a number of times in my dreams, once even was against my will injected with a substance that I knew was gonna hurt me and make me feel horrible, in all kinds of ways, and those dream feelings are so raw..
> countless times I have ended up on high roofs or cliffs, no way to get down safely, nut lately I occasionally am able to make my way down anyway..
> things seem to be moving in your therapy, you have opened up so much already, it is not that long ago people told you here you never interacted with anyone, and that certainly changed.
> your postings are always about something ‘real’, and very worth reading.
> hope you can talk about those things you feel you did with someone.
> we have all done things we regret I think, at least I have done a fair number of them, and that sucks.
> M
Margaret: You are so ‘right on’ in your resonse to Otto. I now almost always remember my dreams and I sure do dream every night. As you say even the horror ones are at least, bearable, even if still undesirable, but hay hoo that’s life and it hits me between the eye balls.
Every day almost as I wake up I go to;- “now! what was the feeling?” in that dream … and don’t give a rats arse what the story was. I made all that up with my craziness.
Jack
ok thanks m.by the way, i have real spiders in my bedroom, and i think they come down at night to drink my blood, since there are no flies in here.anyway, the black cat seems to be improving. he seemed horribly weak yesterday morning, and i had emailed the vet that i was sure i was going to have to put him to sleep yesterday. i carried him to the catbox, in case he needed to pee and could not get over there. he jumped out of the catbox and headed toward the back door, so i gave in and let him go outside, and his energy has picked up since. so i am glad you mentioned it, that i should let him outside, i probably would not have let him out, for the reasons i gave earlier. anyway, we shall see. i am uploading some videos of him to youtube but i did not give any narration, but i will make some more videos with narration. it is a nice Southern California day, with a slight breeze going through all the trees and those little spinning heat vents on top of the houses, and mockingbirds singins and other birds singing and it is not hot and airplanes going overhead and freeway noises in the background. I shot some baby food into his mouth because the antifungal i give him says it is to be given with highfat food to be effective, so he was licking his paw and face to cleanup for a while. now he finally came in and i am going to take a nap. i took off work today to drive z up to ventura for her monthly work meeting and sophie the dog and i took a nice walk on the beach. ok
i dont know if i got the privacy taken off of this or not
Otto: A thirsty Kitty in the shower. My cat drinks out of the dryer’s portable lint catcher filled with water, rather than her own bowl. Just a word about baby food. Check to see if onions are on ingredients. A no-no for cats. Liked your tall tree. Good luck with kitty and thanks for the videos.
S
oops dont know how that other stuff got in there.
> Otto,
> it is a good sign your cat still bothers to wash himself.
> he must feel looked after, with you letting him out, and in, and giving him the baby food and attention.
> my cats like to drink from a slowly running tab, and one of them to sit on the edge of the bathtub and to try and grab the running water, if not too much of it, or slam it with his paw. used my new Iphone to film it, still have to cut out the parts that are not focused well, if I can figure out how to do that.
> also filmed my two cat brothers while play fighting.
> it is their first anniversary next tuesday, smiley..
> my mom used to send a birthday card for my former cat, promised to do so now too but she will certainly not be able to remember it.
> it is fun to play with them in that way, will sing happy birthday to them while giving them a nice tray of food that day, smiley!
> i liked your description of the day being so nice, the sun, not too hot, the crickets and mocking birds, like those, with including cellphone sounds and car alarms into their repertoire..
> they are so very good at it, it is incredible..
> have a nice day Otto, though by the time you read this it will already be close to your nighttime..
> have a nice night then, with good dreams.
> M
My daughter just had her first child, and all went well. She decided to have a home/midwife birth, just like her mother and I did 40 years ago. In 1975, we were reading Fredrick LeBoyer’s book, “Birth without violence” and of course “The Feeling Child”. I must say, the apple does not fall far from the tree, and I am so proud of her and the start her little child is getting. But, after the birth, the midwives did not like the infants breathing and wanted us to go to the hospital for observation, which we eventually succumbed to. My daughter was inundated with request to vaccinate, to have x-rays taken, and other invasive procedures, and I was so proud of her for standing up for her infant and refusing all of it. After two days, with both mom and dad exhausted and uncomfortable, the infant had a very non invasive and un-traumatric stay.
Here is what I found quite disturbing though, in the intensive care unit I saw no other parents. One infant was screaming and crying to beheld and I asked the nurse if I could hold it, and she said I could not without the parents permission. I said, why don’t you hold it, and of course she said she was too busy to hold all of the babies as she needed to do her job. The contrast was just too much, as we never left out infants sight for one second, or left her where someone wasn’t holding her.
Our culture still has a long way to go if they believe it is acceptable to leave an infant abandoned and in the care of the hospital, and not stay there with them. The whole environment was kind of sterile, with uncomfortable chairs and little kiosk type rooms. When will we learn!
Anyway, little Lily is loved and held and nursed, and never left alone. What my daughter learned as a result of what her father learned about Primal therapy is reaping benefits in my family. My grandkids are far better off than my kids were, and by far better off than I was, but WE can change from generation to generation, if we choose. I just wish more parents would choose.
Ted: What a lovely story … the only problem that got me all ‘het-up’ we hearing about the nurse being too busy to hold the child and not letting you do so.
Will we ever learn??? Gessus, I can only hope some breakthrough occurs with the medical profession. It hurts to think about the horrors being imposed on babies … even in this day and age.
Keep up the good work Ted.
Jack
Congratulations Ted to you and all your family. I think that is 3 grandchildren for you – how wonderful!!
Also great to hear the solid foundations your children are setting for their children.
Enjoy 🙂
ox L
Congratulations on your granddaughter , and good for you for wanting to hold that crying baby. Hope more parents choose better birthing conditions too.
> Ted,
> congratulations with little Lily, great to hear she starts off in such a very warm nest!
> a sad picture though of the intensive nursing ward.
> M
Each night I leave the bar room when it’s over
Not feeling any pain at closing time
But tonight your memory found me much too sober
Couldn’t drink enough to keep you off my mind
Tonight the bottle let me down
And let your memory come around
The one true friend I thought I’d found
Tonight the bottle let me down
I’ve always had a bottle I could turn to
And lately I’ve been turnin’ every day
But the wine don’t take effect the way it used to
And I’m hurtin’ in old familiar ways
Tonight the bottle let me down
and let your memory come around
The one true friend I thought I’d found
Tonight the bottle let me down
Tonight the bottle let me down
Merle Haggard
Whoooh. Powerful. Just can’t get away from the hurt sometime.
seeing ghosts…
This song is going to get me to crying some time today. As a child I was whole and wholesome, but struggled then and for the rest of my life against feeling unwanted, not good enough, inadequate, spoiled.
I’m not the freckled maid
I’m not the fair-haired girl
I’m not a pail of milk for you to spoil
[Pre-Chorus]
Why are the wholesome things
The ones we make obscene?
[Chorus]
Latin words across my heart
Symbols of infinity
Elements so pure
Atomic number
I am the spark
Of this machine
Purring like the city bus
[Pre-Chorus]
Why are the wholesome things
The ones we make obscene?
Well if your mercy’s lost
I have enough for us
[Chorus x2]
Latin words across my heart
Symbols of infinity
Elements so pure
Atomic number
[Outro x3]
My atomic number
good for you larry
34 years later after the delivery suite, kid #1 is going to graduate phd soon, and is interviewing for jobs and having decisions to make. all i did around his age was to have him with my wife and enjoy the first few months of his life since i was still jobless at age 30, trying to get my AS degree. Those 34 years were pretty damn rocky for our family..and continue to be for me. cried today at pi about mommy again, devastation of being torn from her at 10 months old like falling through the trapdoor of the gallows, into the arms of my dead aunt and mean Texas uncle. NOT into the arms, because the delightful touch and scent and presence of my mom was gone forever, and i don’t think the aunt and uncle took me into their arms much. Ending here so i dont have to lose this. Might have gotten some relief this time, not sure. Big cry.
I have only started to look for these ‘trails’ recently and some days there are lots of them and other times not so much. But I do find it very concerning I wonder if anyone else notices them or has a take on all this. How about in Canada for example or in NY how about Phil you just LOOK at the sky before you form an ‘opinion’
> Otto,
> congratulations with the upcoming graduation of your firstborn kid!!!
> and your tenacity with dealing with your feelings, I admire it.
> way to go.
> M
quote:- “I had sort of ‘decided to leave’ here too much ‘quoting back’ for me “. How come you can only “sort of leave'”. Does one either leave or not leave. I don’t see there is something between the two. Maybe it’s just a compulsion like:- want to leave but can’t … nor seemingly unable to just admit that you can’t.
I would have thought, even being Irish, that you could have just said:- “I have a ‘new’ concern and it has to do with all this spraying of the skies (chem trails so called) and I DO have a kind of constant low level cough…………….which worries me. “.
Patrick; something seems to be bugging you on several fronts, but somehow you are unable to just say what it is; simply and directly … unless you are not even sure what is bugging you. It’s really very sad. I take it you read most of what is written here, and see that’s what others do. Ah well!!! I suppose you will have to go on puking some more. That’s really very sad … really.
Jack
I wrote this yesterday…………………..
We may have been cold
and hungry
We may have been poor
and weak
We may have run out of food
and starved
But we always had our weather
It was often cold and harsh
and wet too
Though it was also warm and welcoming
It was all things
good and bad and indifferent
But now that is taken away too
Our weather is gone
We loved our weather
every talk we mentioned it
like you would about someone
you REALLY loved
Every trick and twist of it
We loved
We never tired of talking and thinking about it
because well we loved it
We loved it more…………..
more that God
more than Country
more than family
All those thing we knew
would pass away
But we would always have our weather
Well now it’s gone
gone for good maybe
taken away without asking
and stuffed down our throats
Who will try to bring it back
Who will remember what we have really lost
if not me?
My job to do
to get our weather back
Patrick, good to see you are speaking up. I am to full of myself to read it right now, hopefully later
Thanks Otto – I appreciate it you seem to be one of the few who can deviate from ‘primal correctness’ good for you makes a nice change here.
I know you don’t need this but it occurs to me you mention your animals having lots of fungus. The book that ‘influenced’ me the most in recent times is “The coming great 6th extinction event” or words to that effect by Elizabeth Kohlbert. Anyway though the book is about or supposed to be about ‘global warming’ as I remember she describes a MASSIVE die off of frogs and bats also. Really scary stuff and I did wonder will it hit us or other animals. I don’t know maybe frogs and bats are more susceptible but one wonders.
Anyway I was inclined to ‘blame’ most all of your and Margaret’s problem with your pets to very likely excessive vaccinations which you will get as soon as a vet is on the scene. And very likely that is a big factor…………………but I wonder now a bit about all this aerosol spraying (chemtrails so called) that I talked about this morning I don’t know if you watched any of the links. But I truly believe all life is being poisoned slowly or maybe not so slowly. All life means plants and ourselves too of course. Anyway as I say you probably don’t need this just take it as me ‘having my say’ which you seem to be ok with……………thanks Otto for ‘small mercies’…………
gave mei posaconazoler/milkthistle/butter, all liquid, squirt into mouth while I have him pinned on the couch, since he struggles
try to not crush his fungus-covered lungs while doing so.
got melted butter too far down mei gullet, he screamed and went off to die; or just to hide
got pissed at z because she did not jump up to help
asshole always hide out when somethikng needs to be done
except for her fucking needs
I am having hangover from crying yesterday, maybe did not finish
that is why I screamed at z
thank god she got calmer in last few years and does not say too much stupid shit like she used to
she used to come home angry from every group a long time ago, and we all had to eat it, and it was destructive to our family
elephantman cant get no help from women; i.e. dead mom, cold aunt katie, granny who tried tried tried but barely kept me alive
now I have to say sorry, kid phd in other room heard me scream at her, and he recently said how much our fighting had hurt him in childhood
fuck this shit, I just want (not want, I need) to pay my fucking bills, rent
pay my fucking rent with what fucking money, last of money after giving mei his 800 dollar medicine that will make him sick today
pay my fucking rent on my day off, my only fucking day off
pay my fucking rent, drive phd home, hope I don’t have to go to meeting to give z a cake for bday
pay my fuickimg rent, take z and dangerous dog for walk at treepeople., eat up the rest of my day with ungrateful non-c*ksucking bit*
pay my fucking rent with phd’s laundry still in washer so I have to wait till he gets it out before I wash mine, and hope it dries in the sun today so I have something to wear tomorrow.
to work.
pay my fucking rent; useless, missed fucking group becaujse I did not read email until too late
worked 6 hjours overtime yesterday to pay mu fuck9ing rent and I am, fucking tired
no miracle women in the park to pretend they are my mommy, just some c who yelled at me from behind while
whizzing up behind me silently on her fucking bike with her stupid bike hat saying
screaminmg your dog is a danger
because she had to swerve a little into the park’s car lane, no cars anywhere
because I was walking in the forward lane of bike/people path with dog and leash stret ched into other side of path
some bike people will yell out coming on your left when they pass you, or ring their bell a good distance before they get to you
fucking c*t
cat had not correct sound from lungs when purring at 6am
z had said yesterday he needed posa
he was not breathing that hard this morn and was able to jump over fence and go into garage
decision fuckup # 5 billion
I see that group can have a bigger effect that just crying alone. My mommy is there and I should say something but that would be creepy
z tired all the time, what the fuck does that portend
fuck this fucking shit.
not a victim. Just what the fuck is this shit. And this is just my minor shit.
fucking hawk outside screeching and looking for squirrels to slowly tear to pieces while eating alive
otherwise, the weather is cool and breezy like I like it
now find ton of food to pour down my throat to kill this forever pain
soon this will be over
ha!
> Otto,
> I hope your cat showed up again soon after the treatment, and allowed you to comfort him, and yourself at the same time.. and me..
> guess what distresses me most about animals suffering is they are innocent and do not understand , but on the other hand I noticed all of my cats seemed to realize treatments were to help them and never got angry about it, on the opposite , they seemed to appreciate being taken care of generally.
>
> still, it is hard to do, all you can do is do it as gentle and fast as possible , and to talk to them and reassure them in the meantime.
>
> you must have felt lousy about having lost out on the group.
> hang in there.
> M
Otto – I know you like music very much I have never heard you mention Van Morrison one of my all time faves. He is irish of course so there is that but this is one of his un-usual songs called “In the days before rock and roll” but I like this a lot a kind of ‘backwards looking’ there takes me to a time before I was there to my Dad’s time and how that was his world before rock and roll. Mine was after that and that was another division between us as I grew older I find the chorus in that song so beautiful………….my Dad’s quiet and thoughtful world…………..
Quote:- “who dares to ask a question or two about any actual ‘reality’ (again like the holocaust) just concentrate on the ‘feeling’ and don’t think don’t ever think for yourself, don’t read don’t think just feel just feel even when people are flat out fooling you.who dares to ask a question or two about any actual ‘reality’ (again like the holocaust) just concentrate on the ‘feeling’ and don’t think don’t ever think for yourself, don’t read don’t think just feel just feel even when people are flat out fooling you.” Geeesus!!! you are such a fool.
What the fuck are you doing on this blog ANYWAY???????
Jack
> ran into a nice quote from T.S. Elliot: ‘What loneliness is lonelier than distrust?’
> M
Good quote Margaret. My dad, a man of few words, use to give the Mark Twain quote when one of us kids would say something ridiculous: “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”
S
Sylvia: I didn’t like that quote of your dad. Children, for the most part, are not STUPID … it’s the adults that are stupid … on account of having daddies and mommies constantly trying to shut US poor kids up.
Yeah!!! I know but, my Jimbo is for ever telling me I’m still in baby-hood. I’m sort of beginning to accept it.
Jack
Got ya going there, huh Jack? Yeah we are all entitled to be babies. I really think that we knew that that was part of our dad’s shyness. He was very soft-spoken and really didn’t like to talk much, so it was his defense (saying we should not say stupid stuff) for him not wanting to talk much.
On the topic of Janov’s marriage, I think some people consider themselves married from the time they have been together, instead of the legal time. Also in a radio interview on the Center’s site they state that France, his wife, was in New York having psychoanalysis when she read a book about Primal therapy and came to the Institute in L.A.and was the first French patient and was not Art’s patient. Anyway, I guess the post yesterday was an homage to all the work it takes to run a psychological feeling center with patients from different nationalities. And I’m guessing Gretchen knows something about that. Right?
I’m glad that Primal is alive and well.
Sylvia,
> smiley,
> M
> ps. my quote should say ‘more lonely’ instead of ‘lonelier’, sorry. comes down to the same of course.
>
Quote:- “He had not even gone to France to open his clinic there that was several years later which is where he met France (a patient incidentally isn’t that considered un-ethical in some way)”
It seems you don’t know ANYTHING and I’m beginning to see you are even more stupid than I originally thought. Arthur Janov did NOT meet France in France. She was a patient, then went into orientation to train as a therapist. At what point he married her I would leave to HIS better memory than your. I feel like Margaret Thatcher and her buddy Ronald Reagan that there decent into dementia actually began before they got into leading their respective countries.
There are signs that you too may be well on the way … and that is sad, sad and sad since, the bulk of your adult life you spent 17 hours a day, seven days a week running Gen[i]tle Giant. Now after almost giving it away you are symbolically crying over “spill’t milk”, as I see you. It’s sad Patrick, and it seems you are not even vaguely aware of it and your life is almost over … least-ways the best years of it.
Jack
too ashamed to say i am too ashamed. stuck in feelings from the killer’s house. aunt and uncle put a big impression on me, too early in life. too ashamed to write here any more but i did. going to work. cat hanging in therre.
Thoughts while walking Sophie the dachshund around the park in the cool air dark. A young Mexican woman and a Mexican man standing in the dark on the curb next to their cars. Her cute white jacket, her arms clutching his upper arms, it is dark, I cant see much. She says something softly, he says something back. Not angry. Don’t know what they are saying. I am imagining a romance but they aren’t kissing, just looking at each other. Of course, I am mildly pissed because I am afraid of people, especially in the dark, so I am making rude comments in my head about Mexicans and their passionate romances, and why they always have to be outside of their apartments fucking in public (not really fucking, but they probably do, since I imagine their apartments are crowded with other Mexicans), and I have to apologize for being crude and racist, but I am, so there, and then I say to myself a few words about white people and their not-so-passionate romances. And the white-jacketed girl looking up into her man’s face–this is definitely not a romance that I ever had. I did not invite my wife over to my apartment that fateful night 40 years ago, nor was there much of any kind of romance going on. I was too drunk to be romantic, or maybe I was more romantic when I was drunk, who knows Well I am not going to go Into any details here because I don’t want to be crude or mean. I was not trying to ensnare her, this whole thing was her idea. I was perfectly satisfied to sit night after night with a bottle of wine, wondering when some girl was going to fuck me and why was it not happening. Anyway, I suppose there was romance for those 4 days, and maybe after. Not much on my part, maybe a tiny bit, Ah I forgot most of what I wanted to write here. Anyway I had an insight that I have pulled my wife down on top of me, year after year, and struggled to get out from under her stupidity, for lack of a better word, money-stupidity, which has literally destroyed any happiness that we could have had together, but I must have invited that behavior. Re-playing the scene in which my uncle almost snuffed the life out of me early in my life, sitting on top of me for trying to get him to play with me. And I guess with my wife, I was always hoping this scene would have a better ending, but it remained the same, crushed into nothingness. Anyway, this thought came to me tonight, and it made sense to me, and I feel horrible about it, and it seems trite to say this is a primal insight, or some better describing word that escapes me, to say this is what actually has happened, maybe because if this is really what happened for day after day for so many years, well that is a fucking tragedy beyond belief. Seems to fit with what I was crying about last Saturday. Seeing my mean uncle’s face clearly in my mind. Smelling him and my aunt in their bed, missing the smell of my mother. People smelled more back then, or my baby nose was of course, more sensitive. Well, too tired to go into that. Unbelieveable Well I have put too many words into this, seemed clearer in my head, whatever.
That mark twain quote. i love it. it reminded me of this family guy clip explaining why something is funny.
youtube. Funny Because It’s Free, Fouad Mexican – Family Guy. actually i guess i have followed mark twain’s advice on that subject most of my life, not that i wanted to. yep, defiinitely felt stupid with or without words coming out of my mouth.
this family guy clip entitled Sarcasm, is an even funnier one explaining why what the guy was saying was funny. “he was saying the opposite, ho ho!”
had a horrible really lfelike dream about trying to run away from a nuclear blast. just absolutely scary, the heat getting hotter and hotter, hearing the blast in the distance, so real, so scary. i hope i can feel that fear at some point.
Patrick, I avoid listening to Van Morrison, because he talks about women he has been with, and that always makes me feel bad. I never made love on the green grass I remember a girl who was in my starting group who liked brown-eyed girl and that made me feel bad. I dont “like” music in the normal sense of the word. Most music that i can listen to makes me cry or feel bad. I like the other irish morrison guy better, jim morrison. a bit darker, i guess. listen. i dont want to make you feel bad because i feel bad. thanks for talking about what music you like. do you think the french terrorists were humming some middle eastern tune as they pulled out their machine guns and peppered the french kids who only wanted to listen to music, peppered them with bullets? fucking arabs need to denounce their fucking religion, cut off their fujcking beards, throw off their hijabs and the fucking french need to pull them into their society. fat chance. 300 years later, if we havent killed ourselves and the planet yet. i really need to go to sleep. babble babble babble.
Margaret, you so sweet. cat is hanging in there. now he is back to jumping the fence to go into the garage, so i am having to limit his time outside. last time he jumped the fence it cost me too much to mention. plus his long beautiful tail was shortened quite a bit by the vet. i am hanging in there, knowing that one day i will be running in the street, chasing Julie Christie like Dr. Zhivago and i will start choking and my heart will have given out,what a moving scene that is. my favorite movie. and that will be the end of this shit. dark. morose. this is all i think about, unless i am focused on work, or watching house. i feel horribly guilty about taking my pets to the vet to put them to sleep. they really did not want to go. they really liked being alive.
I will have to read about the chemtrails tomorrow. i get this low level cough or scratchy throat feeling daily now. maybe the state is switching over to summer blend gas. or maybe diabetes. or maybe the air conditioner at work sucks in the diesel from the warehouse and transports it to my workspace. or maybe too much artificial flavoring in my coffee. I wish I knew what it was.it is only mildly irritating but since i am already majorly irritated, it adds up.
That’s quite a journey you’ve taken, from Janov to Arabs to Jews to Germans (your ubiquitous quartet). By the way, to the best of your knowledge 1) are there any Arabs that are being traumatized by other Arabs, and 2) are Arabs or other Muslims involved in any other conflicts other than with Jews/Israelis?
A new blog article has been posted written by “you know who”, with a response by Barry. It might require to go to the site to view it on the RHS and click it, for those of you that automatically pick up the blog. Not quite sure how all this works, but hope you all take a look at it … “Cure by Jack Waddington”