Cure by Jack Waddington ( with response by Barry Bernfeld)

My take on the “Cure” for Neurosis

I felt the need to write a blog article in the hope that I can make clear my
feelings about what Primal Therapy is, and what it is capable of achieving.
There seems to be a notion out there that this therapy puts one into a state
of perpetual happiness, or at least contentment. This has not been my
experience. Simply put, all one is likely to get out of it is the
eradication of neurosis that affects our daily being.

What exactly is “cured”
1) Even when we are aware that we are acting out our unmet needs , those based in childhood, and despite this awareness we are compelled to act out anyway, past need will always trump will-power or good intentions.
2) Forever acting out our needs, projecting those needs onto others, even when we know we are, AND in fact don’t like that we are acting out those needs our compulsions make it all but impossible to stop.
3) Our natural immune system is over burdened and depleted. As a result we
are vulnerable and more susceptible to the ravages of disease (dis-ease).

Since Janov defined neurosis as the pathology of feeling there is the need
to know quite what is meant by a full feeling experience. According to
Janov there are two components involved in a  complete or full feeling and the first is the sensation and the other is the expression of that feeling. One simple
example is being pricked by a pin. The sensation (pin prick); the normal
expression for that sensation is “ouch”.

What neurosis does is quash (repress) the expression of the sensation. Our
most basic nature is perverted by countless childhood experiences until we
no longer say “ouch” when hurt.

It was the parenting process that tended to impress on children that they
should be seen and not heard. In other words don’t express these feelings,
especially crying or complaining. In fact, don’t even look sad or upset.
Real need and it’s expression are not permitted. Punishment or at best
distractions (TV, computer games, food) may be offered in its place.

Possibly this was a result of the parents/caregivers themselves being
overwhelmed  by their own old feelings (their own neurosis) that caused them
to do their utmost to prevent the natural and normal expression of feelings in children, particularly in baby-hood.

How all this came about in the very first place is a matter of conjecture.
I personally don’t feel humans were always so neurotic. It happened somewhere
along the way. I conjecture some 20 to 30 millennium ago. How and when I
know not, but there was a suggestion by a Cambridge professor of
Anthropology that as our species evolved into larger and larger communities,
basic neurotic changes in human nature began to develop.

Change is not easy. History teaches us that education or negative
consequences is not enough. Breaking the chains of neurosis must begin with
meeting children/peoples real needs. Unhappy, repressed parents will always
hurt their children despite love and good intentions. So on and on it goes.
Primal access to oneself is the only answer in my view.

What prompted me to write this article was that a Primal patient I know
suggested to me that there was no such thing as “cure” . I disagreed,
but upon reflection, I felt the need to define “cure” as i saw it. To sum it up …. The cure for neurosis is NOT the cure for all our ills.

Jack Waddington

Barry’s response…
First we’d like to thank Jack for his submission to the blog. Thank you
Jack.
Jack has been a tireless advocate of Primal Theory/therapy for longer than
any of us can remember. Your energy and enthusiasm is appreciated. I do have
a few comments and points I’d like to add to your article, so here goes:
I’m not sure the public notion about Primal Therapy is that it puts one into
a state of perpetual bliss or happiness. However, I get your point. Art
Janov’s Primal Scream, his first published work, written as it was in the
late 1960’s, does hint that after therapy, one might sit around while blissfully
listening to music rather than climbing the corporate ladder for instance . Maybe, but this was the 60’s and part of the cultural zeitgeist. I think we can forgive Dr. Janov for a little utopian wistfulness. There was also the fact that the first book was written almost as a diary of events unfolding and clearly much has been learned over these many years. I think our biggest problem in defining this therapy might be
that so many people think childhood experience or pain is passé. There has
been progress, but as a culture, and in psychology itself, the profound
impact of early life experience continues to be underappreciated. Jack’s
comments about acting ,out unmet need despite our intentions or awareness is
indeed one of the foundations of Primal Theory. Also, that the metabolic
cost of repressed pain overburdens our immune system (and all systems) and
ages us prematurely as it makes us vulnerable to disease. How we as a species become “neurotic” is a fascinating question and the growing field of evolutionary psychology will hopefully shed light on this issue. My own thoughts on this is that our capacity to postpone our reactions to pain, danger, and the unknown may have been the very thing that allowed us to reach the top of the food chain. Our larger brain allowed us to think, feel, and behave in several, sometimes conflicted, ways at once. Useful for survival in a dangerous world. Why do we store childhood pain? Why encode trauma within our bodies and minds? Again,the ability to postpone reacting/experience is an important tool in the survival toolbox. If a lion is chasing you, you don’t sit down and have a good cry. YOU RUN! Later, back at the cave with your loving family, you tell
them about the lion and  then you have a good cry! Storage of pain implies
retrieval. Why store pain (or anything) if not because it has value ? We
store pain (trauma) because it is either too big to experience and/or it is
not yet safe to feel or process a particular experience.  Primal Therapy is about creating that safety in my opinion. The safety to retrieve stored pain and reduce the metabolic burden of repression  while gaining access to our personal histories is part of our species DNA, our ability to postpone reacting to pain and danger  until
safe retrieval and experiencing it is truly possible . Still with the handy skill known as repression we may still pay a serious price. One that lasts a lifetime if not properly addressed.
As Jack clearly states there is a “cure” for neurosis i.e.: waiting until
it is safe and finally saying ouch! A disease of feeling, no more, no less. Once our feeling capacity is restored or on the mend, we do not find the Garden of Eden. Our painful  histories coupled with an often brutal and insensitive world  can make life not always easy and certainly not always blissful. I still believe that despite any difficulty acsess to our feelings and a chance at resolution is our best hope for finding both health and happiness. Love, intimacy,friendship, sex, laughter, pizza, rock n roll, beaches, pizza, yes again, make life worth living .

Barry M. Bernfeld,
Los Angeles 2016

 

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891 Responses to Cure by Jack Waddington ( with response by Barry Bernfeld)

  1. There is a new blog posted tonight – if you go to the top of our last comments page you will see the link. Gretch

  2. Margaret says:

    > great post, thanks Jack and Barry!
    > already copied it and saved it, as it contains stuff I ight wanna cite hopefully some day in a larger context..
    > so much to study and read and work on still, but it is nice to keep forming ideas bit by little bit..
    > am in the middle of a course of evolution psychology actually, or not in the middle yet, more so in the first 100 pages of a thick textbook still, hopefully can do my exam this summer..
    > a new book this time from the PI would be really interesting, condensing the experience of all these years of seeing therapy in action, or occasionally failing, exploring more details of its practice and usefulness, Primal.5 SE or something..
    > time is precious and limited so please do not keep us waiting for too long!!
    > she begged humbly…
    >
    > M

  3. Phil says:

    I agree, great posts from Jack and Barry.
    It sounds so simple and yet explains so much, that’s the beauty of it.
    Barry says “I think
    our biggest problem in defining this therapy might be
    that so many people think childhood experience or pain is passé”.
    This is so true. I never encounter anyone who truly gets it apart from
    primal patients.
    Phil

  4. jackwaddington says:

    Thanks Margaret and Phil, and yes Phil I agree that Barry’s remark:- “our biggest problem in defining this therapy might be that so many people think childhood experience or pain is ‘passé’.”

    Also, feel free for those of you that may have negative responses to my article. Or want to take me up on some aspects as Barry did.

    It all adds to the dialog.

    Jack

  5. Phil says:

    Jack,
    When I read your piece again, I saw at the end you mention that you
    were prompted to write this by a primal patient who suggested there was no such thing as a cure. The primal therapy “cure” is in some sense theoretical. You can read in Janov’s blog
    as he reports on his own recent primals, and he’s in his 90’s. I think engaging in the primal process means moving closer and closer to a cure, but not necessarily ever quite getting there.
    To be cured, I’m imagining, would mean not having to primal anymore about childhood pain,
    and I wonder who might have reached that point in the process. I’m not seeing that I would ever
    get there,
    Phil

    • jackwaddington says:

      Phil: on getting your response this morning I answered it immediately and was only now going through the responses, I saw my reply was not there. Dunno, how or why; so!!! here now I’ll try and see if I can repeat most of what I wrote. I did also appreciate your response

      I agree that “cure” in some theoretical sense can seem like just another word and could have many meanings. However, since you brought up Janov’s blog and his undergoing Primals, well into his nineties; I feel that does not negate “cure” as I read him in both “The Primal Scream” and some others of his writings.

      Put briefly, Cure as I feel he, Janov, intended it to mean, is having crossed the Rubicon into the feeling/expression zone of life. An analogy would be (not to denigrate Margret’s affliction), if one is cured of blindness then, for the rest of life, one is now seeing. Not all sights are pleasant or even desirable, but we are now left in the seeing zone.

      It is by that same analogy that I feel “the cure of neurosis” exists. Once haveing crossed over to expressing ones feelings as they arise is what I mean by “cure”. Maybe in my blog I was not explicit enough.

      Jack

      • Phil says:

        Jack,I see what you’re saying and that makes sense. There’s also, no doubt, a point of no turning back with the primal processit seems to me.At that point it’s more of an effort to hold it back than to letit proceed. That’s maybe being on the road to the cure you’retalking about.Thanks for your post and getting discussions started again here.Phil Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 22:04:32 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

  6. swisslady says:

    Jack and Barry – thanks for the great article!
    It seems to me that if you have to revisit the same traumatic event in childhood over and over again, and the pain from that event does not lessen, that signals to me (or to my neurotic brain) that there is no end to the pain and therefore no cure. I did expect to grief the death of my parents for a long and painful period but I didn’t expect that the most horrific traumatic events from the past would rear their ugly heads again. I thought I had visited and rehashed those particular feelings as many times as needed and was done with it. But no! As I’m writing this, I realize that I sound angry and frustrated with the primal process. And yet – Gretchen would agree – I am actually making progress. It’s not like I’ve not worked the primal pain (yes, worked) I have intensely, but it seems that I have not expressed all the feelings involved around a certain event. I remember once saying in big group “that we primal patients become experts in feeling pain” and my criticism was “but not leaving it behind and moving on with life”. I have the capacity to feel intense pain over long periods of time, I can cry and scream and feel the primal pain to the extent that it physically hurts my heart and brain. But what I missed was expressing anger. I might have expressed the anger of a child when popping into a primal scene in the past and had the reaction as the child. But I now realize that I have not expressed that anger as the adult looking back and understanding the event with the adult brain. Well, I have now tapped into that phenomenon and hopefully I WILL BE CURED after all 🙂
    Bernadette

    • jackwaddington says:

      Bernadette: I take your point completely, and I understand that feeling of:-“do we have to go on and on feeling all this old pain” Yes … since it was so, so devatating when going back and reliving it. Just remembering it is not the same. Remembering it, especially from our adult perspective can seem, to the unintiated (non Primal person) like no big deal. BUT THEN when going through it all again, as it was, way back then; when we were so vunlnerable is a whole other ‘ball game’

      This old notion that men don’t cry. Bullshit. I know most men, and some women too, just tend to sniff; or wipe away a tear, and then think … “done”. The other is that women don’t get angry … it’s not very lady like; ballucks!! Sorry for the expletives. Meantime, was good to read your take on it all

      Jack

  7. Anonymous says:

    Jack,

    Does this mean I should stop soaring with the eagles? I’m not cured?

    Very good blog. I’ll give it 5 stars.

    Jack, what I’ve found to be also helpful on my journey, is a reading, and reading of “Super Brain” by Drs. Deepak Chopra and Rudolph E. Tanzi.

    John Z.

    • jackwaddington says:

      John: I’ll take the five stars, just in case this one we live under blows up, then I’ll have others to give me warmth and comfort.

      No!!!! keep soaring with those eagles they have a lot to teach us, and when they’ve told you then pass it on to me.

      Deepak I am familiar with the other guy is a complete stranger

      Take care John, my ex buddy

      Jack

  8. swisslady says:

    Jack, just to add to my previous post. You write: “It was the parenting process that tended to impress on children that they should be seen and not heard. In other words don’t express these feelings, especially crying or complaining.”
    How about expressing anger? Is anger a feeling or is it just a lid covering the underlying pain that, once removed, exposes this pain that needs to be expressed by crying, screaming, etc? Does the term “primal pain” include anger? How about fear? How do you express fear?
    I was not allowed to express anger as a child. As a toddler it meant to be locked into the pantry for hours after throwing a tamper tantrum. As a young child it meant physical punishment after disobeying (which I think is a form of resistance and anger). It was not safe to express anger, hence my suppression of it over the years. I still have a hard time expressing anger in a constructive way.
    Bernadette

    • jackwaddington says:

      Bernadette: There are thousands and thousands of feelings … but the major ones are Anger, sadness, fear, and (if we are lucky) happiness. Some of the others are feeling hot, cold, contented, chirpy, sarcastic, peculiar, irritated … and on and on. One of my little ‘smarty pants’ answers when people ask me how I feel i sometimes answer “with my fingers”

      Jack

      • swisslady says:

        Jack, while reflecting on my definition of disobedience/resistance/anger and your reply, I partially answered my own question regarding anger. I’ve been saying during the course of my therapy that “I was reluctant to living” and “I resist life”. I think now that behind that resistance and reluctance there is a lot of unexpressed anger, and behind that, undoubtedly, a ton of pain. Whether anger is a feeling or a defense doesn’t really matter. What matters is that it doesn’t do any good to hold on to it.
        In the meantime, I was hoping for a more concrete answer to my question “how do you express fear?”
        –Bernadette

        • jackwaddington says:

          Bernadette: When it happened to me, I screamed ‘blue murder’ at the top of my lungs and on reflection couldn’t believe I had that much scream in me. The other one that I am aware of is:- to freeze up in terror. There maybe many more: if others know some to let us know..

          Jack

          • swisslady says:

            Thanks, Jack. The freezing up kind is more like me. But I don’t think it resolves anything for me. I suppose the clattering teeth and shaking like a leaf kind might also be useful. Cheers!

  9. Ted says:

    My experience with the Primal Process gave me a safe place to express my feelings, regardless of how they came out or how intense. I remember one time in group I finally got in touch with excruciatingly deep anger, I was pounding the walls with such veracity that the therapist actually thought I might break my hand, as I screamed at the top of my lungs. Everyone in the room had moved to the other side of the room, some were triggered into their own stuff. But this anger broke open a doorway. As the energy began to break, I curled up on the floor and wept, and my therapist encouraged me to crawl towards him and lay my head in his lap. That is when the deep core of the hurt began to really break loose. That is when the floodgates opened and I was able to let go of the deep hurt. So yes,anger is important but it is just the doorway to the deep core of the early infant childhood hurts, which for me, are the hardest to open up to and feel. Our bodies are designed to go into the adrenaline “fight of fight” response in response to what we perceive as dangerous stimuli, and out of the many years of therapy, I only saw a few instances when a patient got to the very deep reptilian brainstem core first line primal feelings, as those imprints laid down in gestation, birth or the first year of life seem to be the most challenging to get to and resolve.

    Yet, my life as a whole is better, as I can genuinely feel, genuinely engage others in an adult fashion, and I have my own boundary now, and the “harshness” of life has subsided. Of course, as Barry said, life is not all bliss, but compared to where it was before therapy, is sure seems like it. I have two daughters and three grandchildren, who I can see have inherited a legacy of less pain and suffering, so yes, we can change and we can make it better. They are better off because of what I was finally able to feel, and I chose to listen to them and love them. For that, I am eternally grateful to the Primal process.

    Good to see you on the blog Bernadette. Hope you are well.

    • swisslady says:

      Hey Ted, good to hear from you, and great inspirational story! I’m glad you’re doing well.
      I always say that I was born angry and early childhood trauma only added to that anger. I’ve had similar experiences with expressing anger in therapy as you and got relief from it and also think it made me a better person. But as mentioned above, feelings have caught up with me again and this time it’s going real deep. I am also aware of anger being my only defense as I grew up, in fact, it helped me survive. Now that I feel more save in the world, I’m ready to let go of more of it, and as I’m breaking through the anger and looking for my “real me” deep inside (not the tough, defensive, guarded persona that life has forced onto me), I’m finding a tiny, fragile and vulnerable space inside. I am nurturing this now ever so gently as the real me. It is no wonder that I had to defend this space so fiercely. I hope this makes sense.
      Bernadette

  10. jackwaddington says:

    Ted: What a great story. Hope you’ll keep on blogging. I feel it is so informative to read how others, see and feel … using this blog.

    Jack

  11. Crying about the last time I saw my mom? Seeing or feeling her wool or cotton suit dress? Incredible and impossible. Just by sitting through Jurassic world on the tv, and the last scene being the gjuy and girl looking at each other, and she says we should stick together? Jeez. What do I do with that? Last time I saw my mom? How long do I keep crying. It was only like 5 mins.and then I remembered that maybe just maybe that coat was in my grandma’s cedar chest., seeing it many years later. Impossible these memories. My mom’s face. Just a scrap of a memory, pushed up into my head from down below. Saw my dead grandma and friend’s faces too. What can I do with this? My own life is coming to an end. What the fuck? And at home, no less, since i was too tired to go to the PI.

  12. At age 10 months, seeing her the last time. impossible.

  13. and i need to let them go, i realize that. very hard to do, especially after holding out hope that i will see mommy again. she and they are dead and yet death is incomprehensible, especially to 10 months old brains and the brains of other non-human animals.

  14. thank you Jack and BB. So clear, it hurts to see. anyway, i feel there is some little thing missing about it, I am not complaining, and i cant put my finger on it, but i REALLY REALLY like what you guys said. I have Love, intimacy,friendship, sex, laughter, pizza, rock n roll, beaches, pizza in tiny tiny bits, but enough to keep me hanging on. thanks again.

  15. “It was the parenting process that tended to impress on children that they should be seen and not heard.” This is true, but it also comes to my mind about how the monkeymen-pack tends to impress group process/mores on the monkeymen-pack parents. And then I think that somehow wolves were involved with this. Also, Jane Goodall said she has seen chimps killing monkeys and eating them, and other National Geographic documentaries recount stories of one tribe of chimps waging war on another tribe to get their territory with its bounty of leaves and berries. Maybe wolves taught chimp-men to ramp things up with the killing and the bloodshed. Who knows. I just love thinking about this stuff. Maybe as useless as sending rockets to Mars, but it is so interesting. Or it is just a distraction from my pain. whatever. I think Art or someone propounded some theory on human beginnings, some natural changes in the world. Who knows. Floods and Fire. These days, you have to pay extra for the national geographic channel. When I was a kid, taking lsd and smoking and watching those documentaries was de rigeur, whatever that means. See what happens when pt gets someone to open up with all the shit going on in their head, uncxpressed for decades? You cant shut them up. Now I shut myself up. Thank you. Been watching too many war movies where one side of young boys with spears and guns in hand walk across the field to put holes in the other side’s young boys who also have spears and/or guns in their hands. I hesitate to post this, but you dont have to read it. blather

  16. One more thing. sorry. some girl screaming in one of those back rooms at the Pico PI years ago profoundly influenced me forever. Thank you.

  17. Bernadette, I like that you mentioned expressing fear. I was only able to let fear wash over me and vocally emote a tiny bit the last time i was at friday group, triggered by something someone said about something scary. Chills. Holding still. unable to move. I love it because it was so real. i havent gone back to that feeling yet, that was a month or so ago. I might need some help with that one. being squashed out of existence. That feeling is just down there with losing my mom as an explanation of the horror of the rest of my life. cant shut this fucker up. ha.

    • swisslady says:

      Hey Otto, I find it very hard to feel fear. I heard Gretchen mention that it is one of the most difficult feelings to feel (Greatchen, if I’m wrong, please correct me). Of course you need help with your fear, I think we all do. Who wants to consciously go into fear? It seems so counter-intuitive. For me it is imperative to be in a safe environment and have a person I trust with me. I occasionally can feel some of my fear in small group. After I have expressed verbally what scares me, I sit and let it take over my body. Shaking, clattering teeth, holding on tight. If I’m familiar with the particular incident that caused the fear, I can also feel some of it alone, at home, in bed, safe! That’s how it works for me at the moment.
      I cannot imagine the fear you are facing having lost your mother at such an early age, an age where ‘mother’ still represents the entire world for an infant. “being squashed out of existence” sounds like a birth feeling to me, of course it could be something quite different for you, I don’t know your story. Only I’ve had similar feelings and would use similar language surrounding my birth, “crushed to death” is my favorite. It helps me to consciously remind myself before going into feeling the fear that I made it through the incident alive (birth, abandonment, etc.) and that the fear is in fact “only” a feeling. It helps me to face it and let my body go through it.
      Bernadette

  18. yeah i was locked in an attic for expressing self. luckily i did not live with those guys for too long.

  19. actually, i must clarify. intimacy, i have one atom of that these days. damn. the closest i came to it this week was when we were all talking about ghosts at work, because someone did not want to go down to the morgue and fix a computer, and i finally got my speak into the talkative new guy about how me and z had been in kentucky once, in an old building that used to be a hospital in the civil war, and we could literally feel the ghosts or presence of those wounded dying soldiers still there somehow. so i had a tiny intimate moment with this guy, because i have pretty much havent warmed up to him at all since he got hired (trust issues) but i was finally doing so, and he seemed to like it (like most normal people do, i guess). also had that intimacy with z years ago in that ghost place, and then again when we got some mules that were standing in a field to come over to us somehow. tiny intimacies. thank you mother nature or mother life for these small gifts, in your horrible stinking world of grief and pain. ha!

  20. yeah z and kid came home and i really dont want to go out of my room and be with them. i really dont want to be with anyone, maybe the dog, and not really much of her either. i am a cold fish to her when she comes into my room to see what i am up to, probably wants me to comment on her new haircut. I got nothing. she is happy as usual, i am pretty damn morose as usual. kid is going to hear if he has a first post-phd job this week. i am jealous of z and kid’s relationship. I really cant stand to be around her much at all. i dont feel like being around anyone. i guess i did not get much of that relief stuff and all i want to do is nothing. not to have some fun. not much of anything. and that is on some pretty strong anti-depressant. ha. ah shit. mothers day tomorrow. more of i get nothing from nowhere. i’ve given about all i want to give. should have given more to a guy that was getting fired from work, now he came back yesterday and threatened to kill the boss. too much guilt. someone helped me save my job once, and i should have paid back. now this guy will go to jail or worse.

  21. jackwaddington says:

    I’m off to bed: So will catch up on the blog in the morning. Sweet dreams to you all, if you can muster it, after such a bundle of feelings.

    Jack

  22. Leslie says:

    Delighted to read the new blog post by you Jack! Thank you for showcasing both the simplicity and what can present as modern day obstacles to feeling. There is inspiration and in addition reality to your post and I appreciate that.

    Barry – your response is as always wonderful! Love the humour, compassion and the deep insights for now with more to continue to explore and uncover later.

    Big thanks to each of you !
    L

  23. Jo says:

    Jack, thanks for the fresh and succinct post, and
    Barry, your succinct response…I can feel the love from it…and really like the lion metaphor.
    Bernadette, a couple of decades ago, I remember you saying in a group how you were able to express anger while you were driving in your car … well, sometime in 2012 whilst I was living in France and upto my eyes in extreme isolation, anger finally burst through one day in my car – I felt safe in my car, and subsequently it became my ‘primal box’ (I don’t really like that description!) So thank you.
    Amazing how I was unaware of all that powerful feeling..there is more to express, as I can sometimes feel anger leaking out as I am still isolated alot, (and currently no car!) and it takes me by surprise. Well, it’s always leaked out, mostly disconnected, and now I connect it to being abandoned early, and the long long hopeless wait for ‘them’ and take me home.

    • swisslady says:

      Hey Jo, I’m amazed that you remember something I said a couple of decades ago, and glad to be of help. It’s great that you can connect your anger with the early abandonment. I can relate with the ‘oozing anger’ (my term) and being unaware. As long as it is not connected to the primal feeling, my anger will come out sideways.
      I still have some of my best anger episodes in the car, the perfect place to let off steam, although it’s usually not a comprehensive, full feeling, it stops after screaming my head off. However, just recently I had a big breakthrough in a joint session, when I connected with the betrayal perpetrated against me by both parents when I was not even three years old. Interestingly, I’ve known about this traumatic event for years and have expressed various deep feelings about it over the course of my therapy but this is the first time in all these years that I was able to get thoroughly, bat-shit-crazy angry at my mother. The ‘feeling’ started out in the present in an argument with my husband and gradually worked its way back to the traumatic event and connected with the people it belongs to. Not only was I able to express the repressed anger but also the pain. The aftereffect is staggering: The constant underlying anger I have felt all my life has eased off – it’s not entirely gone but I can tell a big difference already. I know I will have to get angry again and feel more of the pain. Getting angry at mom was a big event for me. Therefore, I am a step closer to “the cure” 🙂
      Jo, I’m sad that you are “still isolated a lot” and I hope you connect with somebody. In the meantime keep blogging!
      Bernadette

      • Jo says:

        Bernadette, what a relief for you to have connected to the source via the argument with your husband….
        And thank you for your wishes 🙂

  24. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > following the news about the fire in Canada.
    > just heard it is now reaching the province of Saskatchewan.
    > this is such a disaster, hope it starts raining soon, as it seems the only way to stop it.
    > hope you live far away of it, no idea how big your province is..
    > M

  25. jackwaddington says:

    Thanks Leslie and Jo

    Bernadette: That fear thing (terror as I call it) is the worst and I can only take it a few seconds at a time. Usually at night when I’m in bed. I know where it’s from, but …. be-gessus it’s the worst.

    Jack

    • swisslady says:

      Jack, I agree, fear/terror is the worst and a few minutes is enough for me, too. No wonder really that we repress/store/postpone expression (per Barry) of it for years until our brains and bodies are mature and strong enough to handle it. I have to make a conscious effort to go into fear and feel it, otherwise my body, mind and spirit want to avoid it at all cost…
      Bernadette

  26. swisslady says:

    Mother’s Day Greeting —
    Dear Mom, in spite of all the pain you have caused me, in spite of your lying and betrayal, in spite of your neglect, abuse, hatred, and violence against me – I love you. Because for the amount of pain you have caused me, you have equally also done good, taken care of me, fed me, hugged me, carried me, taught me, helped and supported me, and finally let me go my own way. I love you every day and especially today. Wherever you are now. I know you were afraid of dying and your God’s punishment. But in my dreams I see you in all the glory of the golden light because the good you have done in life so clearly outweighs the bad. If I can see that, then so can your God. In my eyes, you only deserve the best. With deepest love and affection,
    Bernadette
    PS: I miss you so very much!

    • jackwaddington says:

      Bernadette: Very moving. I have a similar response about my father, though I don’t go for the everlasting aspect (just my notion). He meant well, even though for the little me that was not good enough … but then that was due to his very own baby-hood. No consolation, just the reason

      Meantime, I remeber when I was talking to a therapist about a horrific event and I said “It takes years to get over it” The therapist replied with “Do we ever get over it????” That response hit me between the eyeballs. ‘No! we don’t’. However, one could argue what is meant by “getting over it”

      I have reflected on that moment many times. I now see it as a pivotal moment in coming to terms with what I hoped to get across in this blog article. Events in our lives trigger memories of past events … good, bad and the most horrific ones. Reviving the memory is not an accident. It serves a very fundamental purpose, as I see it.

      It’s not the remembering, or even cringing when some of these terrible memories arise. That’s part of life as I feel and experience it. Wanting, or hoping that these memories would go away, is contrary to what I feel is out very fundamental ‘Nature’. I feel this corroborates Barry’s notion that child-hood and getting it all back in it’s full blown feeling memory, is were this therapy takes us and for it to be dismissed as “passé”, is a gross act of denial.

      Jack

  27. ted says:

    Jo, I can relate. Today on mothers day, I feel nothing for my mother. She got pregnant to try and keep my dad from straying, was angry the whole time, I had a very difficult birth, and then I laid in the crib for two years and she never picked me up. She then sent me away to boarding school, abandoning me my entire childhood. Sometimes I am overwhelmed by the isolation, the feeling of loneliness and abandonment. It is so core that I really don’t have a cognitive concept for it.

    My mother is still alive and has late stage dementia, and only two of her kids ever go and see her. I have nothing that compels me to go see her, no connection with her, or any memory of nurture., or any good memories at all. She’s a stranger to me. Yes, I’ve recreated this isolation in my life, as I live alone and do not have a significant other. I’m told I’m just too needy.

    But I have come to accept my own company, and I do let go into the feeling when it comes up. Bernadette, usually the terror comes up at night and wakes me up, and I just try to be with it. I have learned to nurture myself and to love myself as best I can and to take care and to be present and take joy where I can find it. My grandkids bring me great joy.

    I’m sure there’s more, and I’m sure I’ll defend against it and sometimes I’ll let it out.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Ted: It breaks my heart to read your story. It’s so devastating to just even read it. What it must be like to live it, boggles my mind.

      That you get great joy from your grandkids is something to hang onto and give you some solace.

      I suspect I’ll be thinking of you before I go to sleep. What a horror story.

      I wish you all the best Ted.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        Maybe just hand out ‘ratings’ one to five or whatever freaking judge (jury and executioner)……………….”all feelings are valid” but they ARE given ‘ratings’…………..

    • Jo says:

      Ted, how UNBEARABLE….

    • Phil says:

      Ted, I can relate to what you say here about your mother and mothers day.Similar for me in that I was abandoned and don’t remember anythinggood coming from my mother. She went away when I was 5 or 6 because of illnessand lived in a nursing home and passed away when I was 11.There were also punishments I got from her, spanking, that I remember. From a certain age I was afraid of my mother and she was to be avoided. I can remember, for example, not wanting to go into our home after a pleasant outingwith my father and brother to an amusement park. She was just sitting there likea vegetable, and it felt to me like she was very angry, certainly quite depressed andemotionally disturbed, I can conclude now. I was walking around outside the house notwanting to go in. Also, no help with these problems from anyone. That was the pattern when we would go to visit her also.I don’t know if there’s anything good to remember or it’s because it’s all blockedout by the preponderance of bad stuff. Phil Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 03:28:39 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • Phil says:

        What I wrote above had me thinking and a few hours later brought up what feels like an important connection. On the day I mentioned, we went to the amusement park and I was forced by my father to go on scary rides with my brother. One ride went around in a circle in the dark. Another went up high and spun around. I was afraid of both and afterwards felt nauseated. My father had no sympathy for this and my brother, 5 years older, needed company. He certainly wasn’t listening. These were kids rides and he wasn’t going on himself with us. Being with my brother was no help, if that’s what he thought.
        I was maybe 4 or 5 at the time. So this actually was a bad day at the the park, not a fun day at all.
        When we later got home it was all of this causing me to fell a need to approach my mother, for some sympathy, some mothering, but that was impossible. It’s actually wanting and needing from her that made her even more unapproachable. I got punished for that by her, for wanting attention, in other earlier incidents.
        Similar to how it would be impossible to approach and talk to a pretty girl. Precisely for wanting something, some attention etc.
        Phil

  28. Patrick says:

    By the way I found the people in Vancouver so nice several times they ‘helped’ my in a very warm and well helpful way. A really nice atmosphere there compared to LA at least if felt that way. More social by far not like LA ‘everyman for himself and God against all’ This song on my mind about great sadness and death looming up

  29. Patrick says:

    I heard this song in the airport in Vancouver seemed so deep

    “Love me lights out” or “Love me before they turn the lights out”

  30. swisslady says:

    Jo, yes, indeed, what a relief, for both my husband and me 🙂 My hubby – poor guy – was so often the target of my anger. Just because he was there and I was acting out unconsciously mostly. Even when I was aware that I was angry inside, I couldn’t control the lashing out or blaming. Primal pain is so insidious! Since I connected the anger with my mother, I have not been angry. The difference is amazing. To my astonishment, I’m actually a happier person ever since. I’m enjoying it while it lasts….
    Bernadette

  31. swisslady says:

    Ted, wow, that is really sad! The degree of abandonment and your mother’s disinterest in you is heart breaking. I understand a bit better why you wouldn’t have any feelings for her on Mother’s Day (and in general). But I’m afraid I disagree with you on one thing: Nobody is too needy to have a significant other. It’s not meant as a criticism. I’m thinking maybe you have not found the right person yet. It’s good that you have learned to deal with your aloneness and the fear that comes up at night. For me living alone was not my favorite thing to do. I still shudder thinking of coming home to an empty apartment after a stressful work day. I nurtured myself, like you do yourself, cooked nice meals for myself, and used the time to do some heavy duty soul searching, journalling, hiking, etc. I handled it but I didn’t necessarily like it that much.
    Oh boy do I remember those night terrors! But that was before I started therapy and I lived alone. I would wake up in the dead of night, soaked in sweat, thinking there was ‘a bad man’ in the pitch dark room. Couldn’t move or breathe for fear of giving my position away to ‘the intruder’ (how irrational, in retrospect). Afraid to extend my arm from under the blanket to turn on the light. It took some enormous mental strength to convince myself that, in fact, there was nobody there and I could finally turn on the light. These episodes lessened once I did therapy, but I still occasionally get chased by men with knives in my dreams and wake up with a pounding heart.
    What the fuck did these assholes do to me!!!! To answer my question: I was beaten up, molested, raped, betrayed, manipulated, locked up, abandoned … and I had to keep it all inside. MFs!!!! Argh!!!! — Bernadette

  32. Jo says:

    Ted, It bothered me also your statement of being too needy to have a significant other….I feel that doesn’t ring true….boarding school survivors, abandonment survivors, certainly have neediness issues around people, but we are undoubtedly in with a chance to find significant others who are able to tolerate such quirks and traits, and enjoy wholesome relationships. Basically I’m saying I hate that it sounds like you’ve given up on yourself 😕

    • Phil says:

      Jo, I agree with you and Bernadette on this, that it isn’t good to give up on the possibility of a relationship.
      I know that for me to stay alone would be to perpetuate my childhood pattern.
      Phil

    • jackwaddington says:

      Jo: I also agree with you about Ted being ‘too needy’ With such depravity in his past and then boarding school on top of that … it is no surprise anyone should have issues of needing. We are all needy in our own ways..

      It’s so revealing how other peoples stories kind of match some of my stuff. My dreams seem to be all about anxiety. Though as a kid I remember all those feeling of someone dangerous under the bed, but dared not to look.

      Jack

  33. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > that sounds so bleak and desperate and threatening, it resonates with me somehow, to have to grow up in that atmosphere that pretends to be ok but is so barren and hostile..
    >
    > then reading Bernadettes comments I am aware of the large amount of my own nightmares filled with men with knifes chasing me and even stabbing me..
    > still it is not really clear where that roots.
    > a lot of general reasons for unsafety in my childhood but can’t remember any specific strong threats to cause that kind of terror so far..
    > as feeelings keep unfolding I am confident it will become more clear.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      This was actually a huge insight for me yesterday, I guess something to do with my reaction to what Ted wrote. The realization that these two incidents I mentioned happened on the very same day. Also, new awareness that I was especially afraid of my
      mother because I wanted and needed something from her. It helps me to make sense out of a lot of things in my history.
      Phil

  34. Margaret says:

    > today I got an early call from one of the nurses that visit my mom every morning, because she refused to take her medication.
    > I talked with my mom over the phone, and finally convinced her to take the medication,but also promising her to talk with her doctor to check about maybe stopping it.
    >
    > I contacted my brother about it, as one concern is we want to keep the daily nurse visit in the morning as it is reassuring, but they mainly come by to give the medication.
    > another source of concern is without it our mom might become more confused and worked up again, doing stuff like burying keys and money, or going out for long hikes by herself and losing the way.
    > also she had a very severe tinitus for months which happened to recede after taking the meds for a while…
    >
    > so I did call the doctor and we talked about all of this, fact is she is more lively and awake with a lower dose the last month, and it had already occurred to me to maybe stop it and check what that would give…
    >
    > the doctor promised to go by her this week and then decide whether to go from only half of the lowest dose which she takes now, to only a quart of a tablet, or maybe just start giving her something else, a kind of innocent placebo as to be able to keep the nurse coming by, specially as we’d have to wait for the results of her being off meds again.
    >
    > it seems like a good plan, I will have to check again with the doctor as he is getting old as well and might forget…
    >
    > it would be nicer if we could go without the antipsychotics completely, even without the really minimal dose she gets now.
    > I’d rather have my mom being able to be her entire self these last years, even if it brings some more taking care of her with her strange behaviours, but I would not want her to end up with that awful tinitus again, or her being extremely confused and scared again, as now she is fairly happy and still witty and with a strong mind of her own despite the bit of medication.
    >
    > I am glad I asked for advice from my brother and the doctor in this,it is nice to have the possibility of sharing and supporting each other.
    >
    > Phil, what you said is still on my mind, you were so young then, and the need was so basic, it seems easier to catch the enormity of it in someone else’s story but it clearly reflects some of my own feelings of unmet need for support and comforting..
    > all the best, M

  35. Margaret says:

    Margaret,
    It sounds like you and your brother are right on top of your mother’s condition and care.
    it’s great that you can share and support each other on these issues.
    Phil

  36. swisslady says:

    Jack, about the “the everlasting aspect” you and I had a discussion (or was it a screaming match? :-)) before and I’m still thinking / feeling / sensing that there is more to life than a one-time turn. There is more than we can perceive with our senses at the moment. We, the human species, are ever evolving and sooner or later we will be able to see what is beyond our current capabilities. Call it wishful thinking, denial, unresolved primal pain, whatever. I can only say what I feel deep inside.
    You said about your father, “He meant well, even though for the little me that was not good enough … but then that was due to his very own baby-hood. No consolation, just the reason.” I have similar thoughts. My parents just didn’t know any better. I’m not making excuses for them because some of the things they did to me are inexcusable. But I do have compassion knowing that they, too had horrible childhoods and received not much love and care. In addition, they became kinder, more affectionate and in general more considerate as they aged, which of course didn’t help me with the traumas they inflicted, but at least they didn’t pile more on, and in some instances, apologized and felt sorry for having been rotten parents. Also, my heart has room enough for more than one feeling at a time for my parents. I can be furious with them and love them at the same time. I can hate what they did to me in childhood and still see them as basically kind people. This might seem strange to some, or someone might argue that I’m in denial. But I see it as accepting the human condition in them (“the good, the bad, and the ugly” as you always say), I see it as being able to forgive them. I also have to add that the more I resolve my primal pain, the more I’m capable to love them.
    “Do we ever get over it????” I think this might have been in connection with the loss of a loved one. In that case, nope, we don’t get over it, especially when one has lost a child. I watched my brother go through this agony when he lost his 24 year old son to a rare disease. I see it in me, still feeling that I can’t live on without my mom. Part of me doesn’t want to get over it because I don’t want to forget her. I think we must remember if we want to heal.
    In the same way, I think, we never get over our damaged childhood. Maybe we all need to grieve our childhood, the way it could have been and should have been – I know I do. Until fairly recently my idea of “the cure” was to arrive at the ‘unspoiled’ place before the trauma happened. I was hoping (more subconsciously than consciously) that feeling the pain of the past would eradicate the trauma and I could start anew. It is so obvious now that this was an unrealistic pipe dream. We will never feel as adults the way we should have been allowed to feel as children. Even after years of primalling, we will not end up feeling like the innocent child felt before the trauma. It is impossible to restore the pure state of consciousness that we experienced before we were destroyed. This is probably obvious to you, and naive of me to expect, even subconsciously. I understand in the meantime that there is, however, a great tool called “feeling” and a platform called “Primal” which allows us to remember and heal. There is something in our nature that wants to heal and be whole, I agree with you.
    Bernadette

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Bernadette: Yep, Yep, Yep & Yep. I agree with it all, except the everlasting thing.

      Having been brought up to be a church going Christian and then getting conscripted into the army at 18 y/o it was there that I met fellow conscripts that were also into God and all the trappings that went with it. At one point I was stating what my total feeling was about, to him, I remember distinctly him saying: “If, Jack, you believe all you’ve just said, then you are not a Christian” I stopped dead in my tracts and right there and then realized that subconscious I had moved away from it all.

      My mother, being very, very devout, was stunned and the local Minister of our church wanted to bring me back into the fold. However, the more they insisted that I had gone astray, the more I become convinced that the whole ‘Religious structure’ was a ploy to keep us in line. Over the next several decades, that notion took deep roots, and I have never been back there since.

      At first it was hard to even contemplate that on my death; that was the end of me as a living creature. Now it doesn’ bother me in the least. I am tempted to say:- what was I trying to hang onto ??????

      Jack

  37. swisslady says:

    Margaret, I’m sorry to hear that you also get chased by men with knives in your dreams – I don’t wish this terror on anybody! It’s clear to me that the “men with knives” is only a symbol. What’s real is the feeling in the dream, which actually has changed over the years. It used to be abject terror, I would run, try to get away, or worse, was unable to move. Sometimes I would get killed, other times I woke up just in time. In other dreams, I had to protect somebody else from the men with knives, and would put myself in harm’s way in order to protect ‘the other’. Inevitably, I would get killed in those dreams. In my dream state, I had no fear, and getting killed was no big deal. Or I took it for granted that a sacrifice had to be made, even when I was the one being sacrificed. The latest version was that I tried to out-smart the man with the knife, and when that didn’t work, consciously faced him with the knowledge that I would be killed. Like you, I don’t have a clear knowledge what causes these dreams. But I suspect that the fear I felt as a young child of my father is plenty to focus on. What’s even more important to me, I see a parallel between my planning and actions in the dream and in real life. When I avoid a scary decision, when I let fear or anxiety control my actions and thoughts in real life, that’s when I start dreaming. Such a dream always is an indication to me that I have to look closely at my actions in real life.

  38. Margaret says:

    > hi Bernadette,
    > there seems to be an evolution in my dreams as to feeling more and more in control.
    > like last night i dreamed a hostile man managed to put some ‘toxic powder’ on my cloths, which was supposed to certainly kill me, and hurt me, and he looked as he was enjoying it.
    > at first panick started, but then I decided not to pay attention to it, and immediately the feeling of threat dissipated and I started to move on with the company I was in..
    >
    > writing this down it does seem to make even more sense than it already did.
    > sometimes as adults we can allow someone to hurt us or not allow it, and i seem to be making progress in that area.
    >
    > nice to read so much from you here. do you plan on attending a retreat, next retreat maybe?
    > I remember us driving up to one years ago together and I enjoyed the conversation we had in the car.
    > M

    • swisslady says:

      Hi Margaret. Yes, agreed. As children we were at the mercy of our parents, as adults we can protect ourselves, mostly. I’m glad your dreams are indicating some personal growth in that area 🙂 I’d be interested in hearing more about your dreams in the future.

      On the other hand, I’m stunned at an experience yesterday where I clearly was in the right and ‘they’ in the wrong, yet I was unable to get my way. I was left with anger (expressed), then with the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness (still needing to be resolved).

      Yea, I seem to have found a new passion for blogging. I’m exploring…. I hadn’t planned on going to the retreat. I also remember our drive – you were showing me the way, I’m still ever so impressed about that!
      — Bernadette

  39. swisslady says:

    Thought of the day:
    The present is the past healed.
    What you focus your energy on in the present, that will be your future.
    In other words, if you spend your present perfecting your aloneness, that’s what you will have in the future – more aloneness. If you, however, spend your present nurturing friendship, intimacy, laughter, joy, (rock’n’roll and pizza if you wish) – that will be your future.
    We can choose at any given moment.
    — Bernadette

    • Phil says:

      Bernadette,I like your thought of the day. For pizza the future can come quickly; I’m usuallytold it will take twenty minutes to half an hour.Phil

      Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:04:27 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • swisslady says:

        LOL!! good one!!
        — Bernadette

        • Leslie says:

          Welcome Bernadette. It is great to read you here!
          I’m still back with your posting about fear as that very week I had planned to write about how it is still scary for me to be alone and give in to my feelings about fear. This is what amazes me about Sylvia – to do so much on your own. Glad Jack too can get to where he needs to go.
          What a difference it makes it life – not to regular society but to each of us individually who can at least recognize what it is we are feeling and need to release. Sadly, fighting it is so often encouraged and creates havoc as we know and can also witness.
          L

          • Leslie: Yeah! it is so convenient and simple once one is abler to do it on ones own even though if there is a convenient buddy that’s always better and a session when things get really hairy or is it hari, whatever. However the fear thing is a real bugger specially in my case cos it’s about death,. actually dying.

            Comparative the others are easy. My only trouble is that my Jimbo not being a Primal person, thinks it’s something to be avoided. So I do it out of earshot.

            Jack

    • Jo says:

      I like your thought for the day, Bernadette🙂

  40. Anonymous says:

    You hate ” mutual agreement societies” and value individual thinkers ? Really?? This from the guy who so admires the nazi party! Yeah right, that was a group that really stood for individualism and upheld the right to be oneself! Everyone knows they embraced the opinions of all, well except for Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, Blacks and of course the disabled, pretty much anyone who wasn’t white and fit their particular mold. but other than that they certainly were free thinkers. Lol!

  41. Anonymous says:

    That’s right lol

  42. Sylvia says:

    Subscribing. It wouldn’t be a day complete if I couldn’t be part of and fly over of our great cuckoo’s nest here.

  43. Leslie says:

    This is a music video I like from a group in Iceland. The song was recorded live from inside a volcano.
    L

  44. The Rolling Stones – Dance Little Sister. Something about dancing just makes me tear up. Not sure why. Dancing always makes me tear up. I attempted to dance years ago when i started therapy and it went nowhere. Maybe it is just the free movement. Anyway, this is a good video. Some short clips of young ladies enjoying themselves. Makes me sad. I also went to a few dances in my teens and that did not go anywhere. I am sitting in a chair all day for 10 hours the past month, creating printers in a database so clinicians and clerks can print out information.on the new printers that we got. Patient information. Purchase information. I was groomed for this in elementary and high school. Sit, read and write. Sit, read and Write. Eat some sugar.Ignore everyone around me who are all having a good time. My head spins with dyslexia trying to keep it all straight. Open the computer room door for the contractors who are now sickenly polite after i complained about what an asshole one of them was. Hopefully i did not get him fired. People calling me and emailing me. Prints too slow, Only prints out half a page. Prints out too many pages. My top boss berated my other boss on a conference call yesterday with a lot of people listening, about how my boss did not tell employees in advance that he was replacing their printers, thus making their Monday a living hell. My boss has been in a funk lately since info came to him, that later turned out to be false, that the employee he fired was coming to kill him. Anyway. Black cat still hanging in there one month after his crisis. Not taking his oxygen concentrator back to the Home Medical store for another month, even though we barely used it. It is a comfort to have it here, in case he starts panting horribly. Z comes in my room while ui am listening to the dance video and i try to switch windows because i am embarrased that i am watching women dance. I treat her like crap, she is semi-excited that she started cooking dinners for herself this week, and me too, i guess. Sorry i am shit, i am exhausted, i am empty, why would you even marry such shit. Trying to get enough overtime so i can keep the car.When I wake up from my daily naps, I always have horrible thoughts about all the horrible things i have done in my life, a lot of them alcohol-fueled, the rest just ignorance-fueled. Not a lot of solid parenting came to my life, just enough to keep me alive. The music and fun died with my mom, some came back at times, and life was good, but it always seemed to get taken away, every f’ing time. Haha.

  45. Most of the people in each of those countries on that map, NON-JEWISH, were either spearing another country’s sons or raping their women burning their homes, stealing their food, or having those acts done to them by another country. Throughout history. according to history, if you believe history. all the Jewish people wanted to do was enjoy their bagels, like the rest of us. I agree that tales in the Bible of Jewish warriors slaughtering an entire city and burning it to the ground puts them in the league of the rest of us sick sick monkeys., and i agree that Israel is pretty harsh in its treatment of Palestinians, having kicked the Palestinians out of their homes in 1949 or whatever year it was. this can be verified by watching fictional videos on Amazon Fictional but fact-based. But this is what MANKIND does, not just Jew. All men. Men fight and kill, because that is what Mother Nature gave them to do with their lives.

    • Otto: I agree that this is what we humans tend to do: all of us; since we became neurotic.
      BUT I don’t agree that it is our “nature”. Yes! it’s our behavior (precisely:- neurotic behavior), BUT I don’t feel that humans before neurosis, dealt and operated that way.

      To and for me, Janov discovered what exactly our is “NATURE”. That was his genius.

      That:- precisely that, is the purpose of this therapy … hopefully to get us back to our REAL Nature.

      It’s a whole other state of being. Tough to achieve, especially if one was NOT given any real love when were that little and that vulnerable. Tough yes … but not impossible.

      Jack

  46. Out of earshot. Again i say, what the f. I cant go in my car to let loose loudly. Actually i have done that a couple of times while driving. What ever happened to PT that primal boxes were no longer needed? I had 2 of them and they both ended up in the dump. I got to get some thick foam for my windows so I dont always have to go to the PI, but I am too paralyzed to get foam. Even at the new PI, I am afraid to be loud, all the rooms are so close, and since BB is having a session, I feel I am being distracting. We nol longer bring our own pillows. At least we still have the kleenex.
    ho.ho.

    • Otto: I doubt very much you screaming your head off at the Primal Institute would be disruptive. On the contrary I feel it would do quite the reverse, and be encouraging to whomever was in the next room.

      Of course, there’s always going to be a reluctance to break that habit we each of us had to learn when we were little. Just, as best you can, let it break out of you. It seems to me you’re on the brink of doing it. Go for Otto.

      In my last response to you I said … and I quote:- “what exactly our is “NATURE” “. it should have read:- what exactly is our “NATURE”.

      Jack

  47. Men with knives, in dreams, can also be actually that men with knives operated on one. I had a hernia fixed early in my life. I am getting chills here. Maybe it was not so much the knives, but figures in the dark. In the dark because maybe my eyes were shut under anesthesia. not sure. interesting stuff. You might see the figures before actually going under. and of course your body does feel the knives even though you are anesthetized. i think. i have to comment on everything. i am such a know-it-all bitch. ha! well, it actually did not help that one of my aunts said that a black man stabbed someone in the back in some public bathroom. somewhere. some day. thanks aunt e for that info, now everytime i take a leak in a public bathroom, i am reminded of that info.

  48. You said sacrifice. beavis and butthead laughter. This is one thing about mankind that is under-investigated. apparently, all or a lot of peoples have engaged in animal and even human sacrifices. even those pesky jews and arabs! ha! do any of the other animals on this planet do that? not to my know-it-all bitch-ass knowledge. anthropologists like to define men as the only animal that uses tools, until they found out chimps used twigs to eat ants. i think the real definition of men, is they ritually kill. actually, animals probably do ritual killiings too. at least they have rituals, like sophie the dachshund scratches the grass vigorously with her paws sometimes after defecating, for who knows why, is there a reason?. never mind i better go to sleep now.

    • Jo says:

      Hi Otto, I know why dogs scratch the ground after defecating – to make sure the scent of it is spread/wafted as far as possible, to show other dogs the latest ‘news’ ( all coded within the poo) of what they’ve eaten, where they are etc.. comically it’s a vestige of the original act, as they often point the ‘drift’ in the wrong direction, I’ve they often are not sending the scent downwind!

  49. Jo says:

    After talking about an ex husband with BB a couple of days ago, I dreamed that night of the ex and how there was no trust, more of a mixture of older and more recent memory than a dream…a horrible uncomfortable experience.
    Yesterday I had (for once in my isolated life!) a day with my friend from France, with shopping, cafes, catchup, fun, able to be open, and telling her about my so far fruitless search for love online… then WHAM – horrible dream last night.. someone I met and trusted turned out to be a psychopath (my friend had said that word earlier) and I felt so TRAPPED
    … I suddenly found he had terrible weapons – particularly a machete, and was chasing me in order to hack me. From the top of a sort of open area in a castle I ran down down and down a spiral staircase and felt I’d got away but was terrified still, and this is where I became conscious of my body BURNING with pain…all story ceased, and I was just HURT/FEAR, aware, and it was like that for a while and eventually wore off.
    This latter feeling/burning sensation is not new, I mean, it emerges periodically.
    * * * * *
    I have heard that the characters in the story part of a dream are (usually?) all oneself, which makes sense.
    I know in my childhood I was thwarted and warped, punished and suppressed, and my brother and I were quarrelsome, and I had vicious reactions at times. (Anger).
    BB said to me a decade or so ago “It’s a miracle you didn’t turn out to be a serial killer!) which sorted resonated in a muffled kind of way! Now I get it!

  50. swisslady says:

    Hey Jack, I hear you and I agree with you on a couple of points. I also think religion and the church serve to control the masses. I was raised a Catholic but pretty much stopped going to church when I was 16. I thought the people in church were hypocrites. In fact, I’m appalled what the church is trying to sell to the people. I’m particularly horrified by the guilt-tripping and fear-mongering in the Catholic religion. But in my mind, ‘the church’ is completely separate from God and the spiritual aspect of human existence. I do believe there is a God, not the man-made God that sits on a cloud and points the finger. What I believe in can be called Source, pure Energy, eternal Light. This Energy is omnipresent and without it, nothing can exist. It permeates everything there is. It manifests itself as the essence of a living being, sometimes called ‘the soul’ in humans. In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. So, when our physical body dies, our essence (soul) is released. Our bodies die but not our essence/energy. That is why I believe we live forever. Of course, I also believe in reincarnation. That’s when the essence then takes residence in another being. That’s only to really tick you off 🙂

    • swisslady says:

      I do like the progressive views of Pope Francis. There might be some hope for the Catholic Church yet. That said, I doubt that any religion is any better, or any worse for that matter, than the other.

      • Patrick says:

        This was before Pope Francis (2003) not sure which Pope it was. But it seems to be a factor in the world now the Catholic Church is most often on the side of peace the “Jewish Church’ if I can use that phrase (or is it the Jewish Race) seems to be always on the side of war. And that is why I even got interested in the ‘holocaust’ I noticed they were always on the side of war and ‘justified’ it on the basis of the ‘holocaust’ which made me wonder and question that too…………………and to my own satisfaction at least I have found it to be full of lies and exaggerations and it has become a form of nursing endless resentment and even hatred which logically enough leads to more wars. I asked Gretchen to seriously think about this but from all indications she has not just bolstered her very flawed understanding………………..the opposite of being ‘open’ however much ‘therapy’ is being done……………….

      • Bernadette: It is interesting to me that Pope Francis is considered progressive. I feel that comparatively this may be so. However, just this very morning I read that Pope Francis is now saying that females can now be deacons of the church. Not priest. Why not priest? Are only men are so divinely inspired?????? What’s so fucking special about maleness. Didn’t we ALL come out of a female body???. All this church and religious nonsense. In my essay on the subject. I point out (among’st the many other incongruities) that we were IMBUED with the GOD notion, out of fear, terror, horror. The love and caring is added as ‘icing on the cake’ once we’ve bought into all this stupidity.

        If there’s such a being, other than a pure neurotic thinking, and all the benevolence. and he’s all so wise and powerful … why all the horrors of wars and the rest of human conflict that abounds???? Sounds like a real nasty fucker to me.

        One last note (from that essay) The only reason that one hopes for everlasting life somewhere else, or worse still that I/we might get re-incarnated, is that this life was not good enough; so lets hope for a second chance. IMO, Nope!!!! THIS IS IT. … all there is.

        Jack

  51. swisslady says:

    Hey Leslie, thank you for your nice welcome! I liked the Kaleo music video you posted – touching sound and lyrics, amazing venue. I definitely would like to hear more about how fear affects your life. Fear is my constant companion, so I understand!

    In fact, I’m glad you mentioned fear. I’m trying to figure out how the dynamics of my neurosis work, with that I mean, I want to be clear how my fear and anger are connected. You might have read my other posts above, where I talked about the angry feeling I had in connection with my mother. After that feeling I felt happy and free of fear for a few days. I don’t think I knew before how easy and carefree life could be. My thoughts were clear, I made decisions easily, I expressed my opinions decidedly, and without hesitation, but mostly, I was not angry anymore and interacting with people was effortless. But then something happened – details don’t matter – that put me in a position where I ended up feeling powerless, no matter what I did (sometime life is like that, argh – unfair, wrong). My first reaction was anger, which I expressed, and again it connected with the incident with my mother. It seemed to release some pressure but ‘the carefree me’ took a hit. I was left with a profound feeling of powerlessness. And what I noticed over the last two days is that fear has been sneaking up on me again. Normally when my mind is consumed with fear, I withdraw, and when I withdraw, anger builds up inside. So, what I’m trying to learn here is that, in my case, powerlessness creates fear, unexpressed fear creates anger, unexpressed anger creates headaches, self-hatred, a spiraling down to helplessness and self-pity, out of control = powerlessness. And here we have the vicious cycle! My job now it to interrupt this cycle. Express anger. Feel powerless. Face the fear. I’m glad I have a session coming up! 🙂

    I agree with you, what a difference it makes, at least we can recognize what we’re feeling and hopefully can get to a resolution about it. I wish the clowns who currently play the political arena had some degree of introspection – it would make all the difference!
    –Bernadette

  52. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > I have heard somewhere there are also scent glands on the dog’s feet, so their scratching the floor might be another way to identify themselves as proper owners of the territory, on top of the pile of crap that already sends out a similar message.
    > I used to have a German sheperd that looked always for a spot, a plant or rock or whatever higher than the surrounding ground, to deposit her pile on, quite funny sometimes to see a small bush bending under you know what, waving it in the breeze, a clear and loud scent flag so to say..
    >
    > about the dreams about surgery, I once dreamed a tiger actually bit in my ankle, and in this dream the pain was acute and sharp, as opposed to other dreams where the feeling might be terrifying but there is rarely real physical pain.
    > this time it woke me up and it struck me it had been right on the spot where my ankle had been operated twice after being broken.
    > I have been operated many times, but maybe in this case the anesthesia was less heavy or something?
    > M

    • swisslady says:

      Hi Margaret, did you dream this during the surgery? It seems interesting that you would feel pain in a dream. I was once attacked and chewed up by dogs in a dream but didn’t feel any pain, only terror. If your dream was during surgery, you may have been under conscious sedation not a general anesthesia. This light sedation may have allowed you to feel some pain and your brain interpreted it with something it can relate to. Or if you want to go real far out: Maybe your “dream” overlapped with a memory from a previous life (that’s just my take, I believe in reincarnation).
      ==Bernadette

  53. Phil says:

    Not feeling good today, very tired, glad it’s Friday. Also I need to get out in my car primal box and
    play some music to help with sad feelings. Those seem to come up for no specific reason except that I’ve got a large backlog.
    Phil

    • swisslady says:

      Phil, whatever it takes, primal box on wheels sounds good to me. I still drive out past Malibu sometimes and park along the mostly desolate Thornhill Broom Beach and let my feelings wash over me. Safe in my primal box on wheels. I find music very helpful with connecting to sadness. Take care!
      Bernadette

  54. Sylvia says:

    Margaret, I recall in some of the early primal literature that Janov said surgery is recoverable (retrievable) or relive-able by bits much later. Who knows.
    Leslie, that video in the volcano reminded me of the eeriness, other worldliness of Bruce Willis movie, Armageddon. Seems like those musicians are taunting Mother Nature, huh.

    • Patrick says:

      Syvia – Janov has said lots of things always check with your own experience first and last. Most all of what he says if taken literally is quite likely to lead you astray. I have had that experience as have many many others imo. Not to say he does not have an important point but he is a very flawed messenger. Just look at the ‘results’ he basically just about totally fucked up a promising notion.

      • Sylvia says:

        I would have to check with those who have said they have relived parts of their surgery to know if it were true. There was a writing about it in one of Janov’s books by a gal who recalled the surgeon being rough with her ‘insides’ and the feeling of his being inconsiderate to her even though it was all under anesthesia.

        I think people can misinterpret what he says in his writings because he is talking to people as if they were already straight and real. Otherwise we listen with our own feelings and hurts. Only now can I read the primal writings objectively and understand them.

        I believe the therapy or theory has changed. In the beginning defenses her not respected as they are now, because we know they were important to survival and should be given up only with careful guidance.

        I feel a lot of people have been helped by the therapy. Those with ADD, those with addiction, people who have been abused as children, all speak about the relief of reliving their traumas.
        And me, ; I’ve grown and felt here with this group participation and I also find the Janov writings very helpful. Life is better now.
        You have to read the primal writings with an open mind and not as something you go after to criticize. Maybe after one has felt they will have more meaning. Because therapy isn’t based on writings, it’s based on feeling first.

  55. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > no, it was not during surgery, actually it was years later.
    > it was the sharp pain I felt during the dream that struck me as really unusual, and then I realised myself it was at the exact spot of two long incisions in my left ankle, one made one year after the first to remove one of the bolts that had been put inthere to repair the damage of a judo accident.
    >
    > maybe the fact of having undergone it twice reinforced the trauma enoug to have to relive it again in a dream, as it is the only one of my surgeries in that case that had that effect.
    >
    > have had a whole lot of all kinds of physical experiences in dreams, but this in my memory was the only one with sharp pain.
    >
    > tastes, smells, colours, music, singing, laughter, wind, cold or warm, you name it, all not unusual in my dreams, not to mention the emotional feelings, but never physical pain except in this one case.
    > M

  56. Larry says:

    Subscribing. No wonder there have been no blog comments to my email in-box recently.

  57. Leslie says:

    Hi Bernadette,
    Wow your post up there about fear has a lot for me to think about…
    Have I ever known life without fear? It is hard to know.

    I hate the body sensation of fear – in my gut – with such an unease as it begins. With food being my cure-all for many years I numbed myself to it and could then dwell exclusively on how bad and inadequate I was. How if I could only get my body together I could conquer so much.

    Thank god Primal Therapy and Gretchen have helped me for so many years get better and better.
    I know fear with repulsion – just smelling my dad being home from the front door, and the dread of what could be coming. Be it his drunken erratic behaviour &/or his abusive torment or could it be his intelligent conversation perhaps this time…

    I know in acting out fear by trying to show no fear I hitchhiked by myself from Vancouver to San Diego when I was perhaps 19 or so. I in fact slept on the beach in Santa Barbara back then until I was ushered to the Salvation Army one night. In direct contrast now is the safety, kindness, acceptance and love of the the Retreats there that I adore.

    I hate fearing what life can throw at us, our loved ones and friends.

  58. Margaret says:

    > something seems to be coming to the surface for me, in a slow and painful way.
    > last night I dreamed about being travelling, but suddenly noticing my travel bag was missing, somebody must have taken it away. everybody was leaving, bit by bit, and my feeling of desperation mounted more and more. when I started explaining to someone, how it was gone, and how also my handbag had been stolen, I started crying, at the same time feeling ashamed about possibly sounding like too weak or wanting to get attention, and at the same time feeling the rising awareness of my amount of despair and sadness.
    >
    > the next dream was drug related, a long struggle to score something, but then finally, which seems a good sign, not feeling very eager to take it.
    >
    > then another dream, first searching my dad and (dead) husband, then finding the last one and wanting and getting some dope from him,trying to hide that from people behind me.
    >
    > in between the dreams I was laying awake, feeling or exploring a kind of uniasiness Leslie described, in my gut, when imagining agreeing to go to the seaside for a few days in june with a friend, and how that idea triggers fear, and a mounting feeling of threat.
    >
    > all day long I seem to feel a mixture of sadness and fear, which I am probably trying to keep at bay for the moment, trying to function.
    >
    > there seems an ongoing aspect of fear of not being able to cope, or losing all control, and I hate the idea of leaving my two cats here for more than one night, their first time..
    > probably more for my own sake, they are my grounding at this time, together with the studying, to keep hopelessness away, or at bay..
    >
    > it tends to be paralizing, don’t feel like booking a session for some reason, but will buddy on sunday, which will hopefully open up things a bit.
    > maybe part of the feeling is I can’t permit myself to stop fighting, despite feeling I can hardly cope.
    >
    > and the amount of sadness about the loss of most of my eyesight is so huge, the loss so all encompassing, the joy of seeing and exploring the world, the capacity to communicate and make eye contact, the freedom to move and all those ways things used to be fun and aren’t so much anymore.
    > and all the worries while doing stuff anyway, and the fear.
    >
    > and the feeling my hope to ever find a loving companion again is futile.
    >
    > so sad.
    > M

  59. Margaret says:

    > the writing of my comment opened up the gates enough to allow me to have a cry, which feels like a relief in itself, although it was not very long.
    > thanks, so glad the blog is back to talking about feelings
    > M

  60. Leslie says:

    So glad you could begin to, and then continue to describe what is there for you Margaret. Your dreams sound so torturous with what would be some of my worst scenarios and beyond…Keep coming forth as you can as how much better to have it out than in – as you well know!
    ox L

  61. Jo says:

    My friend left yesterday, and I knew I felt sad… My trait is to then push the feeling away, and so the crying came in a dream last night… ‘don’t leave..’
    Today, ‘keep busy’ … no immediate plans for seeing anyone….feel so bereft… ate too much… go for a walk… people everywhere connecting or walking their beloved dogs……can finally cry..
    Yes, I too am glad for the blog to express this somewhere. Sigh….

  62. swisslady says:

    I’m in a different frame of mind this morning, completely out of whack. In my dream last night we lived in a fantastical world, one with flying machines straight out of Star Wars. As unfamiliar as the environment was, the feelings in the dream were familiar to me: Betrayal. My sister trying to steal my boyfriend. My boyfriend wanting her more than me. These dynamics are so familiar in my life, someone taking something from me that is important to me. Being lied to and betrayed. Trusting the wrong people. Not being able to trust. This is the direct aftermath of being betrayed by my parents at a very young age.

    First: I suspect by opening up in this blog as I have been doing lately, is bringing up some stuffed down feelings that urgently need dealing with.
    Second: expressing deep-seated anger about my mother recently has lifted the lid to the underlying pain of being lied to and betrayed.
    Third: additional feelings/memories; my younger sister was born and “stole” my mother from me. My mother loved her more than me. (Outch!)
    Fourth: I have acted this out often by trusting the wrong people in the past (boyfriends, girlfriends, coworkers, you name it)
    Fifth: how does one deal with the aftermath of betrayal?

    All I can say, I’m out of whack. I’m stunned. I can’t breathe. And yet, the last thing I need to do now, is withdraw into my safe space where no-one can touch me. I’ll keep blogging… So glad you guys are here!
    –Bernadette

    • Bernadette: A suggestion … try just crying about the current situation … if you can.

      Not saying it will work but it MIGHT be worth a try.

      Jack

      • swisslady says:

        Jack, good suggestion. I pounded the cushions in anger for a bit and it brought up some tears. This is really deep seated and hard to deal with for me. It seems to represent the total devastation of me, for some reason. I will give it another try with the crying. We have a session tomorrow, so I will definitely bring it up and hopefully can deal with some of it then.
        –Bernadette

  63. swisslady says:

    Jack, Pope Francis is a lot more progressive than any of his predecessors. He is doing his best to bring change to the church in increments. You know as much as the next guy around the block, that you can’t force change. You have to take it in steps.

    There is nothing special to “maleness” although men seem to still think so. It’s an old notion from back when man thought that having the bigger biceps entitles him to subdue the woman. In current society, this notion seems to be still strongly ingrained. Inequality in wages. Minimal representation of women in high offices. Man controlling the woman’s body/ abortion rights. You get the gist. If you want a most current example, look at the many Bernie supporters who would rather vote for Trump than Hillary or not vote at all, should she be the nominee. Could it have a wee bit to do with the fact that she is a woman?

    Your troubles seem to be with the man-made God, which you insist doesn’t exist, yet you keep having feelings about ‘him’. As I said, I don’t believe in this man-made God, but just for argument’s sake, if such a God existed, let me say this: It is not God that wages war, it’s people. It is not God that causes famine; it’s the greediness of people. It’s time for you and the rest of the world to stop blaming God for the “human conflicts” and take responsibility for your own actions. If you think that God can make it all good, then maybe you are projecting your feelings and wishes on ‘him’ but maybe you should focus these needs on mommy. Maybe the “real nasty fucker” is, in fact, your daddy? You, a so-called non-believer, is just as neurotic as the believer!

    So you think this life is good enough? In spite of all the horror and injustice in the world? You think there could be no improvement? You don’t think you could do better next time? You don’t have anything more to learn or contribute? Believing in reincarnation is actually a harder choice than a one-time gig. People who believe in reincarnation take responsibility because they know they will be back. They know that they can’t just exploit the world for as long as they are here and then have a clean getaway and leave the mess to the next generation.

    There is much more than meets the eye 🙂 That’s my take and I’m sticking to it! Love you dearly,
    — Bernadette

    • Bernadette: Quote:- “Jack, Pope Francis is a lot more progressive than any of his predecessors.” Maybe, but for me that is no consolatiomn, for such a repressive organisation

      Another quote:- “Your troubles seem to be with the man-made God”. I wasn’t aware that I had troubles with God, Everlasting life, or Re-inczrnation, BUT I will investage it. I do feel the more these issues get written or talked about, the more we humans are unable to transcend this major part of what I contend is, one of the greatest holds on ‘neuirosis’.

      Yet one more quote:- “So you think this life is good enough? In spite of all the horror and injustice in the world” No!!!!! I don’t think that at all. What I did write was that “this is it …… all there is”. One of the comment I make in my essay, on the question of worshiping, this being; is:- the propensity to grant it as his/her/it;’s doing for all the good that takes place between us humans; BUT refrain from denouncing he/she/it for all the bad that goes on. If God is all powerful why does he/she/it permit all this bad stuff to take place … and don’t give me all this B S about free will … when in-fact we neurotics abuse this “free will” to our own detriment. It’s the act of BELIEVING that is the root of it all, when ‘believing’ means WE DON’T KNOW. A figment of our neurotic imagination IMO.

      Jack

  64. Phil says:

    I wonder how many people change religious beliefs because of therapy. In another primal group I took part in there were a number of people who had past life regressions, or they believed they did. That was a big turn off for me with that group as it seemed to me craziness not therapy.
    Once someone has such a regression, he or she is then a strong believer in past lives. I never heard of a case where subsequent therapy cleared that up.
    Phil

    • swisslady says:

      Past life regression – I can see how that could work. Especially with physical pain or injuries. I’ve had an experience that helped heal my shoulder. But I decided that I had enough to deal with in the present life, so I’m not going there anymore. But definitely, once you’ve had a past life experience, it opens up a whole other dimension and you’re hooked.
      Good question about changing religious beliefs after Primal. I wonder how many people go back to their religion or pursue a spiritual path because they couldn’t handle the pain that came up in therapy. Primal aside, I’ve seen a few people change for the good after they took up a spiritual path by way of meditation. Maybe they are still neurotic, but they seem to be happier and kinder with other people. So, who am I to judge? I don’t think Primal and spirituality are necessarily mutually exclusive.
      –Bernadette

    • Phil: My own brother had what often Barry sites as an epiphany, reliving event, but explained it terms of “a meeting with God. I do believe that there were many historical examples of people having reliving event, but equally rationalized it afterwards as a God experience, Saul of Taurus, Thomas of Aquino and many others. My brother after learning about Primal Therapy from me realized it was not a God experience, but a reliving of his own past.

      As was my own case, having been brought up to be a devout Christian, it is very hard to shake the notion and we do all in our power to keep it that way. I know from my nown expereince of having a very horrific reliving expeerience before I knew of therapy and/or Janov that there is this very deep desire to explain it. Not only because of the terror but also because there is no prior example to judge the experience. In my case on first reading just the introduction to “The Primal Scream” I threw the book in the air and yelled out “I’ve got it”, and could’nt put the book down after it, and read it twice, just to make sure I got it right on first reading.

      It impresses me to this day that Arthur Janov didn’t jump to some rational explanation after seeing Danny Wilson have on. He sure could have done so with his prior 17 years of practice.

      Jack

  65. Larry says:

    First I need to do some housekeeping. I had reactions and wanted to respond to things written by a number of people here, but didn’t have the energy or time then.

    Jack, thank you for the article you wrote that began this new blog page. Barry than you for your insightful response/supplement to Jack’s article. Your third last sentence stood out for me in putting in perspective the benefits of Primal Therapy. Specifically you wrote “Once our feeling capacity is restored or on the mend, we do not find the Garden of Eden. Our painful histories coupled with an often brutal and insensitive world can make life not always easy and certainly not always blissful.” but we are more able to get for ourselves the things that make life worth living.

    It is good to see recently on the blog there is much sharing of fears, feelings and insights. That makes me feel less alone that you are there, as there is no one here where I live who grasps the inner life that we on the blog wrestle with and help each other with. Bernadette, I much value your comments.

    My health had deteriorated all winter, to where it became normal for me to wake up aching, to go through the day aching, too have more and more difficulty breathing, to be more tired and weak as days and weeks went by. A month ago I began taking creatine to try to stop muscle loss and rebuild muscle. About 10 days later my rheumatologist prescribed an additional drug to hopefully help bring inflammation under control. Since then I’ve improved dramatically. My strength and breathing capacity are getting back to normal, for which I’m relieved and happy. People tell me that they see I am recently more alive than I’d been. Of course, life is also getting easier and I feel less isolated now that Spring has arrived.

    I don’t want to just rely on the drugs to control symptoms though. I want to help my body to heal and return to normal immune system functioning. My naturopathic doctor told me that they’ve got best results for helping people with autoimmune disorders by having them adopt a Paleo autoimmune diet. I bought a couple of the books, am seriously looking into the diet, will have to make changes in mine, and am motivated.

    It also seemed that the inflammation, pain and difficulty breathing tended to peak in tandem with a rising feeling, and subsided a bit for a while after I had the feeling. But overall, my health had been getting worse over time.

    Now that I am feeling much better thanks no doubt to the additional prescribed drug, this Saturday evening I feel very sad that I am so alone in my life and have very much to do to build my life so that I am not so alone, while accepting that on a certain level I will always be alone. My aloneness is a most difficult thing for me to cope with, and I am writing here tonight to try to help myself–through you and the blog.

    Margaret, the fires in Alberta that you hear about on the news, are I’m guessing about 800 km north of where I live. I’m not worried about that fire ever harming me, but the smoke does come this far and thick enough to turn the sun red and cause breathing problems. Saskatchewan will have its own growing forest fire problem likely this summer, causing days or weeks of thick smoke in Saskatoon’s air. I recently bought a couple of very good portable air filter machines for my condo so that I’ll have clean air to breathe while I’m at home. I have them on all the time now, as the air will be thick with pollen soon to which I am allergic.

    The air filters sense the degree of air cleanliness, in response to which the fan speeds up or slows down accordingly. They’ve been operating silently almost all the time since I got them, even when I have the balcony door open to let in cool air, which tells me the air outside is pretty clean at the moment. One time they increased from silent to slow to medium fan speed for several minutes. I discovered it was because smoke was coming under the door into my condo, from the common hallway from someone smoking in their condo. I love my air cleaners.

    Okay. I don’t feel quite so alone now. Time for me to get ready for bed. Thanks for being who you are and being there, fellow bloggers.

    • Phil says:

      Larry, I’m glad to see you back on the blog as I’ve missed your presence.
      It’s good to hear that you making some progress with health issues. I’m also glad and feel more alive now that spring is here.
      Phil

  66. swisslady says:

    Hi Leslie, how much I can relate! Your question “Have I ever known life without fear?” I can honestly answer with NO. My response to the question on the application for therapy (what brings you to therapy) was: Fear.

    Like you, I also stuffed my fear down with food for many years, then hated myself for it. Early in my therapy, I remember once eating an entire half-gallon of chocolate ice cream plus a packet of chocolate chip cookies in one go! I don’t do that anymore, thanks to therapy!

    You describe your physical reactions to fear so well; the icky feeling in the stomach, the repulsion you felt with your father… terrifying. Not exactly a place to feel cozy and safe. It reminded me of sitting at the dinner table with my father at the end, and all he had to do was clear his throat and we children shut up. He didn’t drink but boy, was he a stern man, his violent outbreaks just around the corner, if we were not careful. He once beat me to a pulp when I was not even three years old, and that was enough to keep me in the “good girl” mode for the rest of my childhood, I made sure not to provoke his rage again.

    My physical symptoms are mostly tightness in back and neck, headaches, can’t think clearly when I’m scared – petrified. I also relate to the counterphobic behavior. My most recent ‘deed’ was to work on the east coast for two years, just to prove that I can live alone and be grown-up. Well, I did it and I survived and learned a lot. I don’t have the need to do that anymore. I think my next fear to tackle is to be closer to people and explore my trust issues, which scares the $h!t out of me.

    Your hiking trip is most impressive, Leslie! Reminds me of the movie “Wild” with Reese Witherspoon, based on a real story as experienced by Cheryl Strayed. She had a few primal scenes in the movie and had some interesting things to say about fear. One partial line she said I wrote down in my journal “…her wounds came from the same source as her power.” We primal people already know this if course 🙂 If you have not seen the movie yet, I recommend it.

    How do you deal with fear in everyday life?
    –Bernadette

    • Phil says:

      All this discussion on fear has had me thinking about what I go through and tend to call anxiety. Maybe it’s the same thing. It’s mainly people who have given me anxiety but
      I feel like I’ve made a lot of progress with that. Whereas I used to avoid so many people and situations, now I don’t do that as much. Underneath are the need feelings to connect with. The primary source for me is being abandoned, neglected, and punished by my mother.
      I also have a fear of heights. I drive over a big bridge everyday to work and sometimes
      there are men climbing up high doing maintenance. If I imagine that’s me, my palms immediately start getting sweaty. I couldn’t see myself doing that job. I can, however, go up high on ladders and do other things so this isn’t a disabling fear. If I have something secure to hold on to, that helps a lot. I have no idea where this fear comes from.
      Phil

  67. no, the most racist people are the vietnamese. and the mexicans. they often sneer at the rest of the peoples because they cant hoard potatoes properly. the proper way to hoard potatoes is to hire a gang of docile tigers ridden by monkeys. the tigers are docile but they do bite as an expression of love of their monkey masters. anyway the monkeys trade the sacks of spuds with arabs and jews, and get green bananas in exchange. since arabs and jews can’t digest potatoes, but must subsist mostly on chickpeas (which my wife’s sister thinks are throw-away foods), they can hoard those potatoes for long periods of time, especially since the dry wind in the deserts of the middle east doesn’t allow potatoes to rot. The potatoes stay hoarded until the potato market rises when westerners decide to desert the caveman diet and go back to eating carbs and creatine. Then A’s and J’s barter with the monkeys back for those now-yellow bananas for a lesser price. Then they can either eat those bananas, because they go well with hummus and pita, or they contribute them to woody allen for one of his comedies. slipping-on-a-banana sight-gags are a staple for americans of all ages. Of course, as usual, Jesus and his father are totally happy with this kind of lifestyle, since helicopters are not shooting civilians and kurds are not shooting down helicopters. but do we really want to be reborn into a new life, after traveling in the skies for years as ghosts, looking down at loved ones and wishing that their weak ghostly powers could help their living relatives and friends with all their worldly troubles. well that last part totally made no sense now, did it.

    • Patrick says:

      Makes about as much sense as anything you might see on CNN or CSPAN……………….maybe on Russia Today (RT) just a LITTLE more sense imo………..

  68. I dont know if i believe in reincarnation or not. but i cracked up when i was listening to the animal psychic some months back, and she was telling a bereaved caller that the caller’s recently deceased pet would come back into the caller’s still-living pet, and both me and z laughed because what was going to happen to the soul already inside of the living pet, it would be getting crowded in that body with 2 souls in there. Well, it was funny at the time. SORREEEE! Anyway phd kid #1 going to Ohio to work and probably take Z with him, at least for a while. they want me to go to ohio. i cant go away from the pt though.

  69. i dont like Hillary for president, nor the hp lady, nor the alaska lady. slick willie rubbed off onto hillary and i am not sure if it is her fault that the libya incident non-response was her fault or not, at least the repubs seem to think so. i do trust that lady senator elizabeth warren, but rarely are good people running for president.

  70. It is comical when kid#1’s big dog sends a pile of dirt flying, when she runs her scent glands after using the grass toilet. Especially when she sends the dirt into someone’s parked car at the park. She has powerful legs and i can hear the little rocks as they hit the metal of the car..so actually, it is more embarrasing than comical then i have to get the f out of there, and try to make sure she is not aimed at a car next time.

  71. Jo, you have hit it on the head. Dog poo is the original universal language. not much translation needed, and no dog, including sophie the dachshund, will turn away from another dog’s pile without a good long sniff, no matter how bad it might smell to humans.

  72. Jack i will take your comment on the nature of mankind under advisement. my opinion is that according to national geographic movies, male deers and other animals like chimps fight with each other, over females or territory/food or who is going to be leader or who knows what, i was too stoned to remember what they said so many years ago. i am saying man is just another animal, and animals fight. well, maybe not squirrels, i only see them playing with each other, I dont know. men just do things on a grander scale. one of the most primaled-out persons i know feels the same fighting spirit that i do, when some asshole cuts in front of me too closely on the road. the neurosis, in my opinion, is those leaders who always have to have more and are thus willing to let their sons kill and be killed for tribe and country and greed. well just some random thoughts that dominate my thoughts 20 hours a day, when not thinking about other horrible thughts.

  73. swisslady says:

    Larry, I’m so glad you’re feeling better and are back on the blog. I am concerned about your isolation and its affect on your health. How very scary! I hope the medications help you recover. Please do take care of yourself!

    I don’t know about Paleo diet but I have experience in physical pain caused by inflammation. This is what helps me: cut out all sugar (including bread and pasta made with refined flour), fruit juices, dairy, caffeine. Replace with brown rice and whole grain or sprouted bread, preferably non-wheat, eat fresh fruit, steamed vegetables and, if you can stomach them, beans (chickpeas, black, pinto, etc). I don’t eat meat very often, my body prefers fish or mostly vegetarian foods. If I stick to this diet, my body is less inflamed, my joints hurt less.

    Have you tried relaxation meditation to ease your pain? I have been doing this for decades now and it really, really helps me. You lie down or sit comfortably, take a few deep breaths and then tell yourself to relax. You start with your feet, then progress to your ankles, then your calves, your knees, etc., until you reach your head. Take as much time as you need. I often fall asleep during this exercise, which is fine by me 🙂

    Another method is to just sit and focus your attention on the area that hurts. Don’t try to heal it or change it. Just pay attention to it, observe it, breathe into it. You will find after a while the pain will go away. Sometimes the pain will intensify first, then just keep breathing into it until it eases off.

    Of course the best way to ease physical pain is to cry. Jack would agree :-). Crying releases endorphins, sure you know.

    I hope you don’t consider me presumptuous for offering this advice. It is not the answer to all your prayers of course, but all I can say, these methods are helping me a lot, and I thought I’d share. In addition, Larry, try to get some hugs here and there. And please, keep blogging!
    –Bernadette

  74. Leslie says:

    Thanks Bernadette for your involvement and care here.
    “How do I deal with fear in everyday life?” you asked. I think I have and try to fill my life with as much love, wonderful people and nurturing activities as I can. I am very lucky and grateful to have a husband I adore, good family who are open to emotional growth and friends I can and do count on.
    Yoga is something that I really like and need, and make time to do.

    When my fear is provoked I don’t run as much as I used to. I feel, think, say what I can. It is no longer like a big black hole I am petrified to go near.
    Perhaps I have to feel small parts of it along with my present day supports. It is still hell and scary and I hate it and often beg and plead for it to go away- but I also feel a little strength and comfort having the capacity to reach in and out now – with all I have absorbed in therapy.

  75. PT prerequisite course of study:
    DAIDI CABHAIR LIOM
    PAPPA HELP MY
    PAPA AIDEZ MOI
    VATI HILF MIR
    DADDY saeduni
    DADDY HJÆLP MIG
    PAPI AYUADAME
    باباجان daddY
    به من کمک کنید Help me!
    ahh crap he was dead before i was born. i will never pass that class. that’s why it is taking me so long.

  76. Sylvia says:

    Hey Larry, glad you are doing better. I use to listen and read along on a podcast given by Phoenix Helix with Eileen Laird. It is autoimmune protocol and paleo diet. You can Google it. It helped me to hear about what others are doing. I seemed to have less inflammation giving up grains, but I think experimenting with what works for you is best. Good luck.

    Otto, if you wants to know about squirrels fighting, where I use to live the big male ground squirrels did fight.
    My neighbor and I wondered where they went during the cold weather and a squirrel expert (Google, of course) says they don’t hibernate but stay warm by huddling together in their burrows and eat on their 2 year bounty of nuts or seeds. The females nest together but the males are not tolerated until mating season and must bunk with their fellows to stay warm, putting aside their territorial instincts to fight.
    Just some nonessential info on a Sunday.

  77. swisslady says:

    I connected again with the raging anger today in the session. It started off in the present, with me asking Gretchen: how do I deal with powerlessness, the feeling I was left with last, after expressing anger at a present (unsolvable) situation. She said that I needed to get angry again. Okay, here we go: my anger was targeted at the morons in present life but soon it was evident that, in fact, my parents were the real target. I screamed and pounded the wall. They just don’t understand! I can’t get through to them! Morons! Then some interference from my birth process where I was stuck for hours, so I pushed with my head against the padded wall and screamed some more. That’s until my body was too tired to go on and I broke down on the floor where I cried and cried in agony. Again, the scene from my early childhood popped up, the lying and betrayal of my mother. I kept wailing, “My mommy, my mommy…” and only after a while was I ready to finish the sentence “…lied to me.” The agony of such a betrayal is unbearable. As the betrayed child, I understood right then and there that I would be sad for the rest of my life.

    We talked about that my mother’s lying and betrayal was much more painful than my father’s beating that took place right after. Even though at the time the violence against me was much scarier and, at times during therapy, enough to deal with, it now turns out that the lying and betrayal goes in fact much deeper and has a much longer lasting effect. The beating might have been physically painful, my father’s rage might have been the scariest thing ever experienced by me at the time. But the lying and betrayal has affected me in such a way that I am unable to trust people, especially women. A direct result of this damage in me is, that I kept trusting the wrong people later in life and kept recreating being betrayed (and molested, raped, abused, etc.). Well, I keep on going and hopefully I will be able to trust again, one of these days. Thank you, Gretchen!
    –Bernadette

    • Bernadette: What a great testament this comment of yours is for this therapy. You seem to be opening up so much. I’ sort of envious. Whatever that means.

      Take great care care. Jack

      • swisslady says:

        It seems to me that I am touching on some truly life altering feelings this time. As a result, I am not constantly angry anymore, I can love and laugh and be a lot more carefree than I can ever remember before. I only hope it sticks!!

    • Phil says:

      Bernadette,
      Sounds like such an amazing session you had! Thanks for sharing with us. Phil

      • swisslady says:

        Phil, thanks, yes, pretty hectic but effective 🙂
        I also wanted to comment on your post above about fear. You are so clear about your anxiety, and you gave me a lot to think about. I still avoid many people and situations, and I am now going to explore whether for me there are feelings of need underneath as well. I wouldn’t be surprised, considering my own history of abandonment, punishment, etc.

        I don’t have any experience with phobias. But I would be interested if any other bloggers know about them. Are they treatable and if so, how to approach it. I suppose climbing the Eiffel Tower wouldn’t be your dream vacation? 🙂
        –Bernadette

  78. swisslady says:

    Otto, I liked the comment you made about reincarnation of pets. It made me LOL!
    I like Elizabeth Warren, too. But Hillary is what we got. I think she is the best choice, shortcomings or not. Let’s keep the Dems in power…
    How very sad about your dad! I don’t have to tell you that your need for him is of course very real, even if you never had him. It takes as long as it takes. It’s not a race. Keep going!
    –Bernadette

  79. swisslady says:

    Hi Leslie, thanks for answering my question. In the seventies we used to have this term ‘vibes’ (vibrations) to describe a certain mood, and I think there is a lot to be said about that. I can see that bringing positive things into your life (love, caring people, nurturing activities, hubby, friends, yoga) would bring the vibes to a higher point and that would automatically supercede the lower vibes of fear. However, clearly, fear doesn’t go away just like that, and I think you have a good handle on dealing with it when it comes up, reaching in and out. You said before that “you hate it”, which I totally understand but it made me think. Because if we hate something, we actually give it power. Just a thought. I don’t have a solution 🙂 The one thing I’m grateful for is that the more I can feel the fear, the more empowered I am.
    –Bernadette

  80. Leslie says:

    Absolutely Bernadette I fear feeling fear and still do so much to not go there – both consciously and unconsciously…
    It is not a failure of the therapy but a testament to the individually and success of therapy that after all these decades with therapy I can live my life and can actually continue to enrich it. (Don’t worry I know you know this.)

    Anyway, in so appreciating that I can be grown -up, driving to work most days and feeling good – not needing euphoria but just “there” with good things to do at work – and even better things after & I love it. It is so ‘freeing’ as you say, to not be so thwarted by my past day in and out.

    However, its all there damn it! – all the fear, anger, sadness that lies suppressed & gets jostled by life’s frightening events and times and then the feelings that begin to rise and surface. If/when I pay attention it is such a good thing to feel and release whatever I can.

    Your recent account sounds amazing!

    • swisslady says:

      Leslie, it is both wonderful and encouraging to see how your hard work in therapy has paid off and you are able to lead a rich and fulfilling life, that in spite of residual fear, anger, and sadness. I see my life in sharp contrast to yours, in that I have been spending years and years being busy with – it seems to me – struggling and surviving. Only more recently I have been able to free up some mental and emotional space for myself so that I now can look forward to building up something more lasting and satisfying for myself. It is no coincident that such deep feelings as betrayal and trust are surfacing at this point, both tugging on my very foundation. All we can do is to keep going with the process. As my beloved sister keeps telling me: We are good, and we are only getting better!
      –Bernadette

  81. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > your comment about your session was very touching..
    > I am very grateful to my phone buddy who provided me with the safety yesterday to get in touch with my feelings of sadness, mostly in the present, about the loss of my eyesight.
    > also with the realisation of how deep down I can’t trust my mom, have to keep her emotionally somewhat at bay, which is how I feel at least, in order to protect myself.
    > it is sad to need to protect myself from what I crave most.
    > I feel she’d take advantage of it if I’d let her come too close.
    > It does not mean there are no good moments, we can be kind with each other, but the full trust is definitely not there anymore since a certain time in my childhood when I must have realized I needed to preserve some of my integrity at all cost, not allow her to invade it all, to control me..
    >
    > it is a sad thing to realize now when she is going towards 86, with increasing signs of dementia, mostly with memory failure..
    >
    > it is such a mix of feelings, love, need, rage and despair all tangled up in one big knot, where I can unravel bits and pieces of bit by bit..
    >
    > it felt very good I could finally cry yesterday about my present sadness, it is so much harder to carry it under a heavy lid so to say.
    >
    > it does take a safe person to talk to to get access to that kind of feeling, family is too close, as I want to protect them or there are other impediments, someone else I trust means the world at those moments, it makes such a difference.
    >
    > got in touch with some of my fears too, just a bit of it.
    > thanks buddy!
    > M

  82. Jo says:

    Bernadette, at least it seems you can trust Gretchen ( I know that must have been a long part of the process) … enough to go so into those awful feelings…
    Jo

  83. Margaret says:

    > Jo,
    > I like the way you frased that, ‘enough to go into those …’ with regard to trusting, Gretchen in this case.
    > it made me realize it is ok if things are not ‘perfect’, if some moments happened where one, me, felt treated impatiently for example.
    >
    > it made me realize that can be ok, it does not need to be perfect, the generals are what counts, if one is capable and well-meaning and a good professional, there does not need to be a feeling of deep friendship, though of course the greater the trust the better things probably work.
    >
    > of course part of the not trusting entirely is mostly significant as an old feeling red flag, most of the time anyway.
    >
    > defensiveness, expecting to be rejected, all there…
    >
    > but it is so true, trusting enough to go where one needs to go is what really matters.
    > we should find our close friends in our personal lives and in the best case love of course.
    > I am coming to a point where friendship seems the best option of all to go for, am giving up bit by bit on more seemingly..
    > will never do so completely I am sure, but hope certainly is diminishing as years go by..
    >
    > start feeling more and more a retreat will probably be very useful, maybe because I did not go last year, things are pushing to get out…
    >
    > sigh.
    > M

  84. Phil says:

    A big issue for me is being able to rely on other people, and not feel like I’m on my emotionally,
    with my inner life being a secret. I don’t know if that’s the same thing as trust, maybe it is.
    A few days ago I shared with my wife the insight I had talked about here, she seemed interested to hear about it. Rare that I would talk to her about this stuff. I told her how to react though, by not commenting on it at all, which she did honor, and it feels like a bit of a shift for us in a positive way.
    Phil

  85. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > that is really nice to hear, it sounds like an important step you made.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, It helps having done that and I should try to continue. She can understand,
      as I’ve explained why I went for therapy to begin with before we met, but doesn’t have much of an understanding as to why I’m doing it now.
      Phil

  86. Phil says:

    I got to some sad feelings today. About my mother leaving, which really took place over a number of years; like 7 or 8. Something I’ve been feeling more and more intensely.
    Illness progressively took her away while she was still living at home. Ultimately she was nonfunctional physically and not present emotionally.
    Then she left to be taken care of in health care facilities, and finally passed away.
    The feelings I had were “don’t leave me…don’t leave me…come back” …etc. I have had a whole lot of this to deal maybe because it was such a long drawn out process; leaving unrealistic hope that it could be reversed. Yet I don’t remember getting anything much from her to begin with.
    Phil

  87. swisslady says:

    Phil, that’s very sad. I cannot imagine having this uncertainty hanging over your head for years. So painful! It’s good that you were able to cry about it. Not only do you have to deal with your loss but also with the unfulfilled needs. I would imagine that not “getting anything much from her to begin with” would make the feelings even more painful.
    –Bernadette

    • Phil says:

      Bernadette,
      The truth is I don’t have any positive memories of my mother. A couple neutral ones but nothing good. There should be some, I imagine, but none come out.
      Phil

  88. swisslady says:

    Jo, yes I trust Gretchen enough to let myself go into intense feelings. She has been an amazing therapist for me and us (my husband and I). I just recently told her that I trust her, and if I don’t, I know I’m in a feeling. And if for some reason I don’t know that I’m in a feeling, I wanted her to tell me. Which she probably won’t do but she’ll help me figure it out 🙂 You’re right, it has been a long process. In the end it comes down to trusting myself.

    Margaret, I liked the comments you made about your feelings in connection with your mother. They make a lot of sense. I have much to say about my feelings with mother but I will defer to another time when I’m in better shape. I also liked what you wrote about trust, mostly in connection with Gretchen. It is interesting to see the parallels between your feelings for your mother and your feelings for Gretchen.

    Phil, I think revealing your ‘secret inner life’ has a lot to do with trust! It means allowing someone to know about the feelings you have been protecting for a long time. Opening up to someone means validating your inner life, and then healing it.

    I’ve been feeling vulnerable and on edge all day and this afternoon I had another big feeling, deep crying about being lied to and betrayed again. It started off with a misunderstanding in the present but ended clearly with “mom and dad ganging up on me and lying and betraying me.” The pain was so intense, it hurt my brain. Anyway, I am extremely tired now. I have also noticed that something more is pushing up from behind the betrayal feelings. I’m not quite ready for it, because I sense it’s a nasty one.
    –Bernadette

  89. Jo says:

    This blog is somewhere for me to go to, to feel connected with you guys… identifying with your primal processes…as I am feeling vulnerable and awash with pain especially when I wake up in the mornings, especially this morning. Waking from a dream, with a storyline of betrayal from ex husband, feel FURY first, then crying, leading to calling for my mum..
    Somehow I stop myself from completely letting go….(it’s built in to) feel afraid of expressing myself … so I’m expecting another day of leaking tears and sadness.
    But this is better than yesterday, when I felt numb/paralysed.
    I think it’s partly triggered by having had two recent visits from friends, subsequently missing them, and now building up to some family coming for the weekend!
    I probably need to start writing in the new journal I’ve just been given, whose title is ‘The meaning of life’!

  90. swisslady says:

    Hey Jo, it’s so good that you are expressing yourself here. You are not alone! Someone is listening. I can very much relate to the feelings of betrayal. For me they are agonizing. You seem to have good access to the feelings and are able to cry. I’m glad you have friends and family visiting. Journal writing helps me a lot, so I recommend it. I’m really glad you’re reaching out.
    –Bernadette

    • swisslady says:

      What are you afraid would happen, if you could completely let go?
      –B

      • Jo says:

        Bernadette, it’s making noise, crying etc a afraid neighbours will hear. But in front of – whoever – parents, staff at boarding school, people in current life…unsafe/not done, not possible in present circumstances. I can and have let go at retreats, and in unique and seldom times when I’ve felt there’s no neighbors..

        • swisslady says:

          Jo, it’s a shame that you have to limit your expression of feelings because of neighbors… can you have a feeling in the car? For me that works really well. I drive to a private place and let loose. Although I can’t do it with all the feelings. Keep writing here!

  91. David says:

    I’m wondering if anyone here has experience with recovering memories associated with early trauma? A couple of years ago a new “theme” in my primal process opened up, triggered by a woman I met at a dance class, who I was very attracted to, but nothing has ever happened between us beyond a friendship level. In the feelings I found myself crying and screaming “no no no” over and over and over, but with no idea what it was about. It would be very intense. A couple of times when I left my bedroom window open while I was screaming, neighbours rang the police convinced someone was being murdered or tortured in my home. It was a bit surreal having the police then show up on two occasions at about 6am and insist on searching my property, room by room, and me trying to explain what was going on. Actually, I didn’t even go there trying to talk about primal therapy and they seemed pretty satisfied with an explanation of “anger management”…

    Then during about the 60th primal, it finally dawned on me (and I don’t know why it took so long) that this was really serious, and that something really bad must have happened to me for me to be screaming like this. Then the feeling changed “to please don’t do it”. In the feeling I could feel a resistance to saying these words, and could feel one part of me coaching this part that needed to speak that it was OK, that it was safe to express. Then in time the feeling changed to “please don’t do it daddy” with a very deep feeling of disgust. It then seemed pretty unequivocal to me that what I was (re)experiencing was rape by my father. As horrifying and as unbelievable as this is, it certainly explains a lot about my relationship with my father. How I had spent my whole life hating him, feeling like I couldn’t stand to be in the same room with him, and basically stopped talking to him from about the age of 14 or so. I could never make sense of how I felt towards him. I also made an unconscious pact with myself to be the opposite of everything he was. I have thought for some time now that I had been abused by him as a child sexually, but I thought maybe molestation, but I didn’t really suspect rape. I guess I thought that was just to extreme even for him. Well, I guess not…

    So, I am working through these feelings steadily, but still no actual memories have surfaced. I have a therapist, who I work with occasionally on skype, but I have been quite isolated and more and more feel the need to talk and share about what I’m going through, and to just connect with others in this process. I really very much appreciate what everyone has been sharing here, particularly recently! It’s very helpful to know what others are going through. Maybe I can add a little something to the mix.

    • Phil says:

      David,
      That is just so terrible what your father did. I’m very sorry about what happened to you.
      I have recovered some memories. They start out as very vague and very gradually become clearer. Others are ones I already had which have filled in with more details and the feeling context, as I discover why those particular memories stand out..
      I don’t really have any huge breakthroughs with memories, they tend to come on gradually with the feelings leading the way,
      phil

      • David says:

        Thank you Phil! Yes, the hugely detrimental effects this has had on my life, my health, my relationships is slowly becoming clearer. As a child I could not joyfully announce myself – my new self in this world – TO the world, as children want and need to do, but had to go into hiding, to protect myself because my family was not safe. My isolation began there. Being alone was the preferred option. Actually, the necessary one. The feelings this has engendered in me – that am worthless, dirty and nothing, I have a sense at least that these are feelings I have and not who I am.

        I’m also convinced my father similarly abused my younger sister. She had an eating disorder and was morbidly obese, and this is a known defense against sexual abuse.

        Re memory, intermittently,and for some time I’ve awoken in the night with pain in my behind and feeling that going to be the bathroom to relieve myself would help, only to find that I couldn’t. Nothing happened. I’m now sure this is nothing to do with any need to relieve myself, but is a component of a memory. It’s another piece of the puzzle.

        It’s encouraging to hear that you are making progress recovering memory, albeit slowly. I guess that’s the way of it, as with all aspects of healing.

  92. Jo says:

    David, this is the place, for sure..

    • David says:

      Jo: Yes, I see and feel a lot of empathy, clarity, sensitivity and experience here. Another place is the Yahoo Primal Support Group, which I have written to in the past and that has been very helpful, but it seems rather inactive at the moment. Plus I’ve written a little here before in the past, was at the PI years ago and know a few of the people here.

  93. Sylvia, that nonessential info on squirrels is great. They are such adorable animals. But maybe not as much as bullwinkles.

  94. I had another good cry at the PI last Saturday. More with the pushing up from my lower body into my head, maybe from the liver, when I cry. Pushing up into my head. I am thinking now, what a huge force it must have been, to push all my psychotic feelings down into my baby body. Feelings of being with my doting mom one day, at age 10 months, and then, later that day, she is gone from my life for good, and eventually I am taken to the murderer’s house to live for 8 months with my callous and uncaring aunt and uncle on my father’s side of the family, so my grandmother could attend to my mom who was laying paralyzed in an iron lung in the hospital. Anyway, I am not doing it purposely, the pushing, my body is doing it in tandem with the crying. Anyway, how can I word this? At some point during the crying, it was like a crack in the sky took place, and I could glimpse a totally forgotten universe of my life. Almost like in the shape of an eye. It was only a snippet but I feel like there are some major memories ready to be recognized. I can’t remember if I clamped down or not, I think I did because maybe I got too close to to the horror of the feeling/reality. I think it was a period of my very young years after my mom had died, and I returned to live with my grandma and her daughter, my teenage aunt, who was charged with taking care of me and my brother. I was less than 5 years old. So I was listening to a song over and over and over while crying. I was seeing that we were driving in a car, I have seen this vague memory before, something about an underpass. Driving in L.A. Nothing really clear to see. The song I listened to was not released till 1965, when I was like 13, so baby memories and teenage memories are clearly intermingled here. The song is probably something my then-older aunt would have listened to on the car radio. I have almost no memories of the era when my teenage aunt was taking care of us . Some vague memory about an apartment house. My grandmother kept an old color picture of my aunt when she was just a girl, on the TV for many years, next to my mom’s picture, so I kept seeing my aunt’s face in my mind as I was crying. Honestly, I have no recollection of what I cried about Saturday. Probably about my aunt, she was my next mommy. She took care of us after I came home from staying with the murderer for 8 months while my mom was dying of polio. Age 10 months to a year and a half. It was a relief to be with my aunt I guess. A nurturing cancer, from the house of women cancers. Nurturing with that old timey sarcastic 1940’s harshness, subdued, cant put it into words. 1965 I was just out of military school, military school was so harsh with angry adults and kids, which was a recreation of my early 8 months at the murderer’s house. The thing about the murderer’s house, I have been crying week after week, seeing the rooms in that house, aunt and uncle’s faces have become much clearer lately. So it all kind of fits, memory-progression-wise. I did kind of figure out why I listen to the same song over and over, besides the fact that it keeps me in the feeling, focused. We used to have an old stereo record player, the kind they had in the 50’s and the 60’s, where the 45’s would play over and over. Well I wrote some notes when I left the PI and I had an insight, but apparently I did not write everything down, and now it is days later and my memory is blurry. I might take my camera next time so I can video record my cry, and I could occasionally speak out as to what I am experiencing. As always, it feels good to cry, I might be getting snippets of relief, I am not sure what part relief plays in PT, but BB has asked me a number of times if I am getting any. I got euphoric relief back in 85, when I was much younger and not on antidepressants. Anyway, I know I am forgetting something, but I have been staring at a computer screen for 10 hours a day lately, looking at numbers numbers numbers. At least with excel and notepad, I don’t have to actually type the damn numbers too often, just copy and paste left and right. Why the fuck my boss wants to give the clinicians long numbers to name the new printers, instead of familiar wordy names, is beyond me. Whatever. Dumb fuck. I also figured out why, today, part of the reason that I push away my wife so completely these days. It’s because of losing so many pets lately, and now I know, and have for a while, I will lose her soon enough for good, into the black, and that is just absolutely horrible and I got very sad while walking outside at work about this. Well that is how I had to deal with loss so often in my life, push that feeling or person away. Or she will lose me, which will be sad for her, my ghost probably wont be sad or who knows. Who the fuck knows…Well, like my grandmother said to me once, with a rare show of how she really felt, it’s tough to get old.

    • David says:

      Otto, sounds like a lot is opening up for you. That’s amazing and sounds like it must be an exciting time! Your comment has a lot of energy. I relate to loosing my (birth) mother at a very young age and while I didn’t have military school, I was sent to boarding school. Which I imagine may have been similarly stern, strict, cold, aloof, insensitive. Kind of like my father, which was why he was probably so keen on the idea.

  95. swisslady says:

    David, I’m sorry that you had such a horrible experience. What amazes to me is that you kept on feeling it, on your own. That takes some courage and determination!

    I have had both, very good and moderate success with memory recovery. Depending on the incident. But I tend to agree with Phil that it is a gradual process, a little bit more is revealed with each feeling. Especially when the incident involves rape.

    When I started to remember being raped by an uncle when I was not even five years old, it all came out during a few primals. First going with him to a secret place and being seduced. Then the surroundings in details. Then the actual act, the visuals. Then the recovery of who it was, which up to this point I didn’t know. The smells, the feel of the clothes he wore, the glasses. Then the experience right after it happened, wanting to tell my mother but not being able to. I can pinpoint the day when it happened because it took place during a special family event.

    The second event, which is very hard to recover, is the potential molestation or oral rape by my father when I was not even three. I say potential because I’ve had only a few flashbacks but not actual memories. It is more a physical memory, the gagging, the almost suffocating, the disgust, violent. I pursued it for a while and then wanted to forget it (well, I can try, lol). Part of me doesn’t want to believe it. So I avoid it for now…but I’m sure it will catch up with me again soon.

    I think it was ‘easier’ to recover the first incident with my uncle, maybe because it was a one-time event, it was not violent, he was nice to me, he seduced me (very insidious). I remember avoiding him when he visited again. Distrusting men with dark-brimmed glasses. Hating men in business suits. I was terrified of him when I stayed at his house when I was older, about nine or ten. It was easier to believe that he could have done such an act. So my body allowed the recovery. In the meantime I’m almost certain he also abused his sons.

    It is a lot more complicated with my dad, because there were other incidents around that same time; I was locked up in a pantry for several hours, he severely beat me, I was betrayed by mom and dad together, I wanted to kill myself not even three years old. There is a lot of trauma surrounding that very short period of time. And all these events I remembered in therapy; I didn’t know anything about these events before I started therapy. The feelings of betrayal I’ve been working on lately will probably lead straight to the incident, a few (hundred) primals down the line. It’s a slow process…
    –Bernadette

    • David says:

      HI Bernadette, I’m pretty sure I’m talking to the Bernadette who was in Terry’s small group in the early nineties. Your nationality is the same, and other details fit. So hello again, if you remember me 🙂 Maybe I need to say more things about myself to jolt your memory, I don’t know. I remember you talking about these issues back then, so it is obviously taking a very long time for you and what you describe is also horrific! Wanting to kill yourself at age 3 is truly mind boggling and speaks volumes about the amount of pain you must have been in.

      You say it has taken me courage and determination to feel these feelings on my own and I suppose that’s true. It has also taken some ingenuity. It has taken me a long time to sort of grow into the process for it to really work well at these depths consistently. Also, it has taken a very long time for this specific pain to surface in me, over 20 years. So I guess I’m ready for it . Also, a parent that rapes you is going to be a bad parent in all sorts of other ways too, and it is these “lesser ways” that I needed to feel about over the years to have the strength to deal with this specific pain. I needed a stronger sense of self to really “go there”. Feeling that I was an unloved child, was something I did not want to know, and which my mind had protected me from for, well, for a lifetime. But surrendering to that feeling was a relief and then it became “just” another feeling to feel. And feel and feel and feel…. 🙂 I do have a therapist that I’ve been working with for sometime, 14 years now I think, so I am not totally doing it on my own. It’s just that they have mostly not been in the room.

      But really I’ve been feeling these feelings about my father mostly out of necessity. I think the real courage is in living a conscious life, facing reality as much as possible on a daily basis, going for what I want to do, being with the people I want to be with, even when that is very challenging. and the feelings that I feel are a by-product of all that and come as a relief. I’m sure without this process I would be dead or in jail right now. My early life was extremely traumatic. I was also adopted.

      As I have said, no memories yet have come up for me, just crying and saying what I needed to say to him; “please don’t do it”, “I’m a little boy!”. What I needed to say to my mother: “please help me mummy”. Plus a lot of just raw, horrific screaming for my life. I also feel my father did something to silence me about the abuse. I have no memory or sense of him beating me, so maybe it was a threat to my life. He made me “keep quiet”, which has made any kind of sharing about bad experiences in my life, difficult if not impossible, which contributes to my isolation.

      Thanks for sharing about your experiences, it’s been very helpful. That feeling of betrayal, which sounds like it is very strong for you at the moment, has not come up for me yet, but I’m sure it’s there.

  96. Another little line that hits me hard, “Life can never be, exactly like we want it to be.” Dedicated to the one i love. mamas and papas. could be crying here but i cant do it with wifey at nome. she went to pt, but she just doesnt get it. too bad. or more likely, i am putting someone else’s face on her. damn. we could have had something together, but it never got there.

  97. That was such an amazing time in history, 67, beach boys, dodge dart, little white house in long beach, so sad but still so much explosion of something, summer of love, childhood still, hearing seeing all this stuff coming in from the stellar winds, whatever so sad it is gone, so sad. wah

  98. swisslady says:

    The feeling of betrayal keeps following me around. In a dream last night I was in an office environment with all women. When I returned to my desk I noticed a woman was nosying through my things and documents. I yelled at her, You have no rights to go through my papers! You have no rights to look at my calendar! She just shrugged her shoulders and winked at another woman in the office and walked away. I sensed that ‘they’ all knew what she was doing, and were all ganging up on me. I was furious! But what hurt the most is that nobody cared. And I was left, again, with helplessness and powerlessness.

    Argh! How I hate that feeling! I screamed in the car at the fucking bitches. But I couldn’t connect it to the past, where it certainly belongs. Then again, if you’ve ever worked in a corporate environment, and you are a woman, you probably have experienced this type of conniving, back-stabbing, behind the back gossiping bitch. It is very much a present phenomenon. Boy, am I glad that I’m not there anymore! That’s not to say that I didn’t find nice and caring people at corporate – I did, and I’m still friends with some of them.
    –Bernadette

  99. Margaret says:

    > Jo,
    > what I do when a feeling might get loud, is putting loud music on.
    > then I feel like even if they hear some of the crying, it should be clear it is supposed to remain private and I am ‘ok’ so to say, not had an accident or something.
    > but I guesss there still might remain a bit of a difference with the pure letting go that might happen at the PI itself occasionally, with screams at the top of my lungs..
    > had a night full of dreams, one of them strange, was somewhere in what seemed the bottom of a halfdark stairway, on the floor, and noticed a strong chemical smell, and then people gassing or spraypainting the place, wearing masks to protect them.
    > I started panicking a bit as it took me some moments to get up and to try to get out of there, and while I was doing so I noticed my breath started failing me, I started gasping for air, about to lose consciousness when one of the men finally gave me an oxygen mask to put over my face.
    >
    > no idea where it comes from, it was pretty intense. maybe it relates to overdosing in my past, once I woke up in the emergency unit..
    > it is sad, so much waste of precious time of my life, and I just got up and walked out of there, still feeling somewhat pleasantly stoned.
    > it took me some more time to finally kick the habit at some point, after having lost my husband, and a year later being dumped by a new boyfriend after two months, I finally chose between going down the hill completely again or taking control of my life.
    > called the neares judo club, joined it and that was the start of a better way of living.
    > the day I obtained my blak belt was the day I decided to finally go to therapy, after having postponed it for twenty years, sadly enough..
    > M

  100. Jo says:

    My crying today (‘I want my mummy’ and ‘why…. [am I here ]’ ) in a scenario of a dormitory in boarding school, surfaced when I noticed my neighbor was out, and my washing machine was humming and grinding … so feeling happens…
    I never listen to music on my own Margaret, so that wouldn’t work for me- but I get what you are saying.

  101. Margaret says:

    > Jo,
    > I only very rarely listen to music on my own as well, but well, what do the neighbours know about that, smiley?
    > when I feel crying can get loud I simply turn it on kind of loud if necessary.
    >
    > when lovesick though, I must admit listening to Chet Baker singing invariably put me into feelings straightaway.
    > long time since lovesick has struck me, actually little to no romanticism around at all these days..
    > sigh ..
    > luckily two cats who like affection, both giving and receiving, always works to lift up my mood and make me smile.
    > M

  102. David says:

    A few scrolls back, there was some discussion of God/spirituality v Primal. I thought I’d chip in on that. For me, I don’t see a “versus” in there. The spiritual experiences I’ve had have been emotional, obviously like primal ones are, but have been very brief, lasting only a couple of minutes or even seconds. Like I can only hang our in a place of fundamental reality, for want of a better phrase, for very long. I don’t really go looking for these experiences either, they tend to find me. One happened fairly recently when I was out for a walk. I felt an energetic presence descend into me, which when I felt it, made me think immediately that most people who would experience this would think it was the holy spirit. That would be the commonest “label” to put on it. In less Catholic terms, I would say it felt like humanity’s energetic template. Or in other words, it was a fundamental aspect of the All, or source, or God, that related specifically to humanity. So what did that FEEL like? 🙂 It felt like the big, or over-spirit, seeing and acknowledging and honouring the spirit in me. My awareness of it become stronger with every stride. I felt this energy source was conscious and that it knew absolutely everything I was thinking and feeling the moment I thought or felt it. And it came to me when I was out walking as a way of saying: “I’m with you every step of the way!” This aspect of it was incredibly moving and I started to weep. Because I was on a busy street, I didn’t want to break down in front of passers by, and pushed the emotion away which also pushed away the experience. But it has remained as something I can keep going back to as a kind of touchstone.

    What is hard to put into words is just the absolute rightness of what I felt I had access too. This is where the problem lies with religion,. I think. Certain people have moments of epiphany or revelation about God / the Universe, and because of the extreme difficulty of putting this into words (there is almost no vocabulary for it) problems inevitably arise in trying to communicate to other people about the experience in way that is going to be helpful. For myself, I’m not interested in trying to convince or convert anybody, so I just share as appropriate, like here.

    I’ve also developed a relationship with God which has been enormously helpful to my therapy. This is a little ironic, as one of the ways I came to oppose my father, who was very religious, was by becoming anti religion. Opening up to someone else, turning to another who you feel cares about you and understands, is an essential part of the therapeutic process, giving you access to your feelings. But I’ve found I can also use God as someone (something) to open up to, and it works in the same way. Feeling that there is someone there who loves and cares about me has helped me to feel the pain of being unloved by my parents. This is something that I’ve just happened upon rather than deliberately engineered. And it’s saved me a bundle on therapy fees 🙂 I’ve also experienced God being love itself. So it is more accurate to say God IS love (hackneyed as that may sound) than to say God loves, or is loving. Love is what God is. I also believe that God is not a he or a she, but an it. God is a process, not a personality.

    • David: I read very carefully your post on Religion or God or whatever it is you wish to call it. What you feel on these walks you mention sounds nothing more than a feeling:- simple. Why complicate the issue by deliniating what it is from the reasoning perspect, or to put it into the Primal Theory context “Head tripping”, or rationalizing … the feeling.

      You write “I think. Certain people have moments of epiphany or revelation about God / the Universe, and because of the extreme difficulty of putting this into words (there is almost no vocabulary for it) problems inevitably arise in trying to communicate to other people about the experience”.
      Then why try, if you acknowledge communicating the experience is a near impossibleity????

      It is my feeling that we are treading dangerous ground when we attempt to say what it is others are thinking. We/I don’t know. Period end. In an earlier comment I mentioned my brother having a similar ‘epiphany’ on a walk in his early 20’s (which he related to me).

      We are not born with a “God” concept either within or somewhere in the stratospheres of a loving creature out there (other than hopefully mommy). We needed her and equally daddy, also since they were (hopefully) a loving couple. Our ability to re-live those very very, early moments and in-so-doing know/feel we NEED them. It is when those needs do not get fulfilled that we later devise; think-up gods, (inner or outer) It’s called “Neurosis” ‘the pathology of feelings’ and their requisite expression.

      My take is:- Keep it simple … “FEELINGS”; that we were born with and equally what we felt in the womb (unless we got seriously tramatized in there also). The God notion when we/I first encountered it, was imbued upon us in later childhood and invariably through fear, terror of his/her/it’s wrath. Then the love factor get poured in later. Love is a pure feeling and when it happens to us/me it’s a fantastic feeling … nevetheless just that; a feeling. Why complicate it????

      Incidenly, my brother, when later he learned about Primal realized his epiphany was a re-living of a very, very early childhood event, at a time when he didn’t have notions or rationalizations about those feelings. No other creature that I know of, has to rationize feelings … or have a god context.

      Jack

      • David says:

        “We are not born with a “God” concept either within or somewhere in the stratospheres of a loving creature out there (other than hopefully mommy).”

        I would agree with that. But you seem to be insisting that I had JUST a feeling which I later applied a concept to, a concept which you take exception to. Whereas for me, it was an experience that I had an emotional reaction to – something that did come from outside of myself and affected me – and I then later tried to find ways to put into words. It IS hard to describe, but I think it’s natural to want to try to communicate to others any powerful experience that we might have. There’s a kind of urgency to do that. But was it just a feeling (your perspective) or was it a spiritual experience (my perspective) – I guess we could go round and round arguing about that for a long time. I have had many, many experiences where it was JUST a feeling, and am happy to leave it at that. But this was something different, which was why I chose to highlight it here in the context of a recent discussion about spirituality.

  103. David: I grant that it was an experience … but for me. all feelings are experiences. I also grant that is within anyone’s right on this blog to voice their experience, but with a caveat, which I will explain in a moment.

    Two experiences come to my mind:- the first was recent when I saw on the internet a video of a live rabbit having it’s fur pulled off from it’s skin to put inside shoes. The rabbit was screaming like I have rarely seen in an animal before. It tore me apart and I cannot stop thinking about this poor, poor rabbit, and the total insensitivity of the person pulling it’s fur from it’s body. If I’d have been present I think I would have dragged the poor rabbit way from the person. It really, really bothers me to have witnessed it.

    The other was on a very wet rainy day some years ago and the rain was poring down profusely, and I was in my car driving and suddenly in the middle of the road was a homeless man with a shopping cart walking in my path and I was unable to stop in time and I hit him, and apparently broke his leg. An Ambulance and the police were called, and the police only wanted to check my driving licence and that I had insurance which I produced. I was so upset and wanted to go over to the homeless man and at least take him off the roadway. The police seemed little concerned with him and his plight. I was obviously so nervous and agitated and the police seemed to only want to assure me that it was all ok FOR ME and to not be agitated.

    When I was all over and an ambulance had taken care of the homeless man the police let me go and that was the last I heard about it. BUT … I was so upset and disturbed I booked a session for the next day. On getting into the therapy room for the whole session I just wailed and groaned about the whole thing for the whole session. No words … they weren’t needed.

    The point of relating all this that both feeling defy explanation in words. Pure feeling in both cases. I empathized with both the rabbit and the homeless man. No words were necessary, and no explanation/rationale for my feeling about either case.

    If as you stated in your original comment, you feel you have “saved a bundle” by having this sense of a being “it” looking after you; that’s your prerogative, but I feel you are trying to add another dimension to the Primal notion. It is this that ‘I’ take exception to. To re-iterate Janov. “Until and unless we descend into the ‘pain’ of that, that we did NOT get; then we are missing out on the healing process”, or words to that effect.

    Patrick, another blogger on here tried to up-date Primal Therapy by adding ‘the Paleo Diet’
    For and to me, the only updating that will EVER be required, are techniques used by therapist to get us patients to experience those deep and painful experience of childhood and/or wombhood. All else, including what is deemed ‘spiritual’ is irrelevant. Spiritual is just another fancy word to delineate feeling IMO.

    Jack

    • Patrick says:

      I don’t think it it correct to say I was trying to ‘update’ primal by adding the Paleo Diet……………it was more a case of me trying to convey there is ‘more’ to life than primal and I still feel it is a great mistake to try to ‘do it all’ through primal in the process miss many and really obvious things. There are many things that affect our moods/feelings and diet is only one of them and that was my point even if I may not have conveyed it so well.

      The other aspect of primal I don’t care for is the kind of ‘exclusivity’ I see here and in Janov’s writings. To me it would be a more promising direction to sort of ‘integrate’ primal into say meditation or maybe an important addition to most meditation. Like meditation but where the person is ‘open’ to any and all his/her thoughts/feelings no matter how ‘negative’ Primal as propounded by Janov is VERY ‘exclusive’ and all the weaker for that imo. Though I WAS very drawn and attracted to that aspect of it. We were taught as kids there was ‘only ONE true Church’ and I absorbed that message totally and then ‘applied’ it to primal also…………………………..my mistake. But also something I feel in ‘encouraged’ by Janov’s whole approach and another reason for it’s broad ‘failure’…………..

    • David says:

      I totally agree with you that certain life experiences can evoke very strong feelings which are then very hard to put into words. The two stories you relate show that you have a lot of empathy for, and sensitivity to, the plight of others. The story about the rabbit is particularly sickening.

      “If as you stated in your original comment, you feel you have “saved a bundle” by having this sense of a being “it” looking after you; that’s your prerogative….

      That’s not what I said. It’s not about a higher power looking after me or taking caring of me. Rather, it’s about sensing or feeling that I am seen and understood which then helps to bring up old pain which can be resolved through feeling it.

      “…, but I feel you are trying to add another dimension to the Primal notion.””

      Well, I’m sharing what has been helpful to me. Then people are free to pick up on it or not, or challenge it like you’re doing. And you have been making me look very hard at my beliefs and experiences. One thing I do need to look at is my tenancy to try to do everything by myself, including therapy. While I’ve been very successful feeling feelings by myself, out of necessity, as I don’t have access to a therapist near where I live, I do need to talk and share with others about what I’m going through. Hence writing on this blog among other things. I have friends, but certain issues, particularly sexual abuse, I don’t feel I can talk to them about.

      “For and to me, the only updating that will EVER be required, are techniques used by therapist to get us patients to experience those deep and painful experience of childhood and/or wombhood. ”

      And what about someone in a foreign country without the resources to work with a therapist, who is without a significant other, or people they feel they can talk to and who want to help themselves by getting more in touch with their feelings? Might not the use of a higher power help them in this instance? It might just be too damn hard to do it without. Just a suggestion.

      • David says:

        My above comment is to Jack.

      • David: Sorry, if I got the ‘wrong end of the stick’ with your “saved a bundle”. I appreciate yours, and all others that put their comment on this blog. I find it a great rescourse and hope others do also.

        I have written a book that I hope and thought could be helpful to people in general that read Janov and wanted to do this therapy but did not have the where-with-all to get therapy here. I have offered to give for free, e-copies to anyone on both this site and “The Primal Support Group” that wanted it, if they were to give me an email address. Mine being jackwaddingto@yahoo.com, and to give me feed-back if they felt inclined. One person did find the book helpful and got into deep feelings from it and we now correspond frequently by email. the name of the book is:- “Feeling Therapy: Real Health: Yourself”. Janov read it and sad “Good, very suscinct and fine book” which thrilled me.

        I also was brought up to be a devout christian; Church and then Sunday School and praying at night. In my teens I came to accept ‘Jesus Christ as my own personal saviour’ I rejected it at age 19, much to my mother’s chagrin and the local pastor. Meantime have written a 7 page essay on Religeon, being “the root of all evil” since it is/was the religious mend-set that created the dichotomy of ‘good and evil’, mere value judgements IMO.

        Yes, I am a true loyal Primal person due to several event in my life, that on reading “The Priaml Scream” in 1973 gave me the “very essence of life”, and I contend; it was the greatest discovery mankind ever made … or will ever make. Janov to my mind is a great genius; greater, by far than Steven Hawking.

        Last point: the suggestion of the “Buddy principle” was and I feel still is, one of the greatest ideas to continue and promote therapy, that Janov put forward and I have had many and still have currently.

        Jack

        • Correctiion: I miss spelled my email address:- jackwaddington@yahoo.com. I missed out the final “n” in my name.

          Jack

          • David says:

            Jack, I did read your ebook and I thought that it did a wonderful job of elucidating primal theory in a personal, non-technical way. Just to re-iterate what I wrote to you privately, I felt it’s shortcoming was in the lack of practical suggestions for helping a “newbie” get in touch with their repressed pain to feel and resolve it, in the way that Thomas Stone’s Cure by Crying did. But that it helped one such person in this way, must be gratifying.

            Yes me too, I had a strict religious upbringing. My father would be furious with me if I even half remarked about not wanting to go to church. Then I was sent to a boarding school run by catholic priests. Although I never bought into any of it, it did take me until I was seventeen to have the courage to tell my father I didn’t want to go church anymore. That was tough, but liberating.

            I had a similar reaction to reading The Primal Scream. All it took was reading the introduction for me to be convinced. I knew immediately I’d come across something hugely important, something that could be enormously beneficial to my life. And the process itself that I came to be introduced to has indeed proved extremely helpful.

            • David: Sorry I don’t remember you responding to my book, but now remember the comment and hoped that just by sobbing first, if one was not able to cry would have helped. What the other person got him started was just reading “let it happen” since he had been suffering all his life with tourette syndrome (severe tics). Yes it was and is gratifying, and I feel he’s making a lot of progress with doing it himself, and now he’s found a buddy and that too I feel is important for all of us.

              I acknowledged the Stone book and my only qualm with him was not acknowledging where he got it all from though he did mention Janov but as a kind of an aside..

              I had play mates as a kid that were Catholic and my Jimbo, like you was brought up Catholic in a Catholic boarding school and felt equally like you and rejected it. I feel with him, like you, that the influence of that harsh and repressiveness of Catholicism never totally leaves. It “imprints” to quote Janov.

              Interesting that you too, took to Primal on reading the introduction, just like me. Then of course, there was Michael Holden the MD who also took to the Jesus thing also. I just feel that those early, early teachings are so insideous and imprint more than I feel is generally recognized. That was why I stated that Religion is:- ‘the root of all evil’ in that it created the dichotomy; whereas now I I don’t see things as good or evil or even good and bad … but would rather for myself refer to it as “I like, OR I don’t like” which makes it clearer to MY mind rather than the tendency to make it a universality. It is just that, I strongly fee, creates all the conflicts between peoples. Further, it creates the notions of ethics and all the other trappings which complicates and convolutes our thinking.

              I have given, over the years, a great deal of thought to all this and it permeates into my thinking about The Abolition of money” that I see as such an inhibiting factor to ‘the living of life’ by all the factors then needed to keep that one factor (money) in place. IE Police, Law, Government, Militaries, the need to possess, Greed and all the other inequalities and on and on. We are all equal whether we like it or not, and without the need for such idiocies as constututions and the likes. To the extent that without that ‘chain round our necks’ even Neurosis would just evaporate; cease to happen.

              It’s the process of getting from here to there, that most, from my experience, fail to, as I put it, “cross the rubicon”.

              Jack

  104. Patrick says:

    When I say ‘exclusive’ I was reminded of this in one of Janov’s recent blogs where he was saying he ‘was primalling the other night” I mean that sounds kind of weird he might as wellhave said I was “Janoving” (TradeMarked) TM the other night. It just seems more natural and less pretentious also for example to say “I was thinking the other night” or “I was reflecting” or even “I was meditating’ or I was recalling’ or I was ‘dwelling on’ but this ‘primalling thing well it just seems weird and I do feel it is something that has been and is quite damaging to people in that it puts them or attempts to put them in some ‘special zone’ and un-fortunately a zone that is ‘away from themselves’ very often.Yes another way of not being oneself. And as a neurotic that was quiet natural to me and something I took to like a duck to water………………………another ‘mistake’ or another way of not being myself

  105. #1 kid finishing up his life at ucla, graduating phd and moving to ohio for his job in august. i have been ignoring this transition all along but now i have to face it. i will miss him and will probably see very little of him for a long while. i should leave it at that. very teary but i dont want to cry.

  106. Patrick, did you go to church a lot when you were young? I have many memories of going to sunday school and there was a little roller rink over at Hollywood Presbyterian Church for the kids. I guess i liked singing and reading books about missionaries and other tstete flies in Africa. I did not like wearing a suit. Well the memories are vague. I do recall that when we drove into the parking lot in our big white 54 Ford, we could see that back of a building that said HAWAII on it. I had no idea what that meant, and i thought it was spelling HAWALL. But i don’t think i ever asked my grandma what it meant.

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – it’s not that we went to Church so much really pretty much only to Mass every Sunday and in between Confession and other stuff but mostly just Sunday Mass. It reminds me of a kind of ‘funny’ story I was about 18 y.o. and my Mom started as we called it a ‘tourist business’ which was opening up the house to ‘keep’ tourists in the Summer also they got breakfast and dinner. So it was a big venture for her and of course would involve dealing with the public, strangers in the house etc. Our family was always kind of ‘exclusivist’ (another thing I ‘accuse’ Janov of) and never much had ‘visitors’ so all in all I think it was a lot of stress for her.

      She was anxious I could tell we were all anxious though I was already ‘off’ in my teenage daydream (cue song right?) anyway it was Saturday night around 7 o’clock and the first Saturday of the month the time for Confession. This was sort of set in stone just like Sunday morning Mass was. Anyway we my Mom mostly though are anxious these tourists and from England too they were (what a major step up is that for Irish peasants) were supposed to arrive around 6pm………….still not there, Confession at 7pm…………..what to do what will happen. At some point say 10 minutes to 7 it is decided fuck it though that kind of language was not used we have to go to Confession. Just about to leave here come the ‘tourists’ in their fine car and they from England too!. Well…………..as important as it was especially to my Mom there was only one thing to do go to Confession

      Hurried explanation and embarrassment to the ‘tourists’ but we HAVE to go to Confession. But we let them in and make them feel at home (yeah right!) and we go to Confession. Next day of course is Sunday the usual ‘rush’ in the morning, milking cows lots of ‘jobs’ to do and then at 9am go to Mass. This is even more of a ‘command’ than the Confession thing if that is possible. Anyway OK all that happens not my affair really I am sure my Mom was majorly stressed her first big day with her ‘tourists’ (she turned into quite a good business for years built a major addition to the house etc) As I say I was not ‘religious’ at that time but well of course I went to Mass and all but my ‘religion’ at the time was the Beatles and the Rolling Stones who of course were from England too just like our new tourists. They also were a young ‘couple’ (married or not I wondered but probably having sex my mind again) to me they had that ‘exotic’ English quality I sort of craved, that ‘cool’ quality the Irish peasants and potato hoarders like myself lacked but in my case was determined to try to acquire

      So that afternoon I am now in my ‘new’ Church down at the beach a sort of majick place for me now and a place we hardly even went to as kids (too busy ‘working’) and I think I have my transistor radio and I am listening to BBC1 and the latest and coolest ‘sounds’ from the UK. Who do I run into down at the beach……………..our own ‘tourists’ I forget to mention he is also a ‘long hair’ more ‘coolness’ and his girlfriend I don’t think wife is in a tiny 2 piece (2 piece imagine that how cool AND sexy is that) bikini. So we stop to talk it’s like I am in love with ‘their’ world the ‘cool’ world and me just a peasant boy and not a ‘popular’ one either in spite of all the ‘work’ nobody much appreciates me and I feel pretty much ‘hated’ by these local rats. So we ‘talk’ I feel nervous I can fit in or up to these people and not for the last time in this kind of arena I am struck by how ‘nice’ they are but also how ‘cool’ they are. Anyway one of them says ‘are you going to Church again to-night’ and it just struck me they think we are religious freaks these are nice and cool people but they think and I can’t blame them we are some kind of primitive religious freaks. (another thing I ‘accuse’ primals of) Like Mormons or Jehovah’s Witness or something. I try to ‘re-assure’ them no no we don’t do that all the time, it was just………………timing it so happend no no no we only really go once a week on Sunday and well on Saturday night to Confession once a month it just so happened just timing……………..they seemed re-assured they were nice and ‘cool’ with me no problem at all……………..I wonder where they are now I hope they are doing well and happy I think that is very possible………….

      • Patrick says:

        Otto – I know you love your music I just thought was sort of songs would be on my radio down on the beach that day and I think “Rain” by the Beatles. We of course had plenty of that in Ireland some sun too that day was brilliant sun……………..anyway it makes me sad now just listening to this how we had a magical place there but we could or I could not ‘feel’ it it has to be ‘re-imagined’ through some cool English people like the Beatles they are only singing about the sun and the rain which we had all the time but somehow for me at least it was so much BETTER coming through the Beatles. Anyway whatever……………..and it’s like even now I crave and appreciate real sun and real rain more than ever and well it’s going away. And not just here real clouds and real sun is going away in Ireland too. This whole ‘chemtrails’ thing it looks like I will spend the Summer in Ireland this year again and it has to do with the sun and the rain and all the majick we have lost……………..but I am also very concerned with the ‘future’ is it too late for all of us is the planet really dying…………

  107. Jack, i would kill that man that did that to the rabbit.

  108. Jack, that is what was missing from what you and Barry said at the top. JUST WHAT ARE THOSE MAGIC TECHNIQUES THAT THE THERAPISTS USE?? I always have wondered. BB said something once about “having to go into the back door on this one”. So fascinating! I looked on Dr. Janov’s site and tried to watch a video of his wife at a white board, i guess she was teaching new therapists, and it seemed so unreal to be teaching PT like that. or maybe i just dont like whiteboards. no diss to the Janovs. i It just seemed wrong to me though.

    • Otto: I don’t consider those ‘techniques’ to be magic. Rather I see it as a skill. It is so easy to “play the expert” especially in psycho-therapy. To me the genius of Janov was that he stated over and over again … it is the patient and only the patient, that can experience his/her own past. and take from that experience, their insight that follow.

      I don’t think one teaches the potential Primal therapist to be a Primal therapist. If I have it right, one has to do enough of their own therapy before one is considered eligible to go into orientation to train to be a therapist. The emphasis is on the potential therapist to learn … by shear experiencing, as a means to permit a patient to go over to the FEELING element of themselves rather than ‘thinking’ it through. Another way to put this would be to say that learning is natural, instinctive and simple. Teaching is complex and convoluted.

      I feel (thought I don’t really know since I was never asked nor invited to go into orientation to train as a Primal Therapist). the proclivity, even for a therapist and especially in their early days of practice, to fall victim, yet again, to their own neurosis; having lived it for decades. It is a skill that requires a great deal of time, and practice living in the “feeling zone”

      In the end (of life) it is/was ALL FEELINGS … just billions and billions or moments … just like now.

      Jack

  109. Patrick, you gave me an idea. Integrate Primal into aerobics and religion at the start of group, for 5 minutes, maybe starting out with a little meditation. OMMM. OMMM. OMMM. Sweaty bouncy aerobics. the kind i dont do because i was a tv kid. GB will be jumping around saying feel the burn feel your body. BB will grab his guitar and scream out Jesus Jesus Jesus in a southern drawl. The possibilities are endless, but ludicrous. I hate what i am writing and scared. screw this. Jesus is going to bust me up every chance he gets. Yes, I realize i am a blithering insane idiot. ha.

    • Sylvia says:

      You are on a roll Otto, You can recruit Richard Simmons for your workout. I think the Janovs were teaching some theory of primal. Maybe you would like a black or green ‘blackboard’ with chalk instead.

      David, I agree with having someone or something that you believe in that believes in you too. I could not open up without some support either; you need strength from somewhere. I have a couple of friends I rely on. Thank goodness for kind people.

  110. Margaret, you probably said before, but what are the cat’s names? Are they male or female, fat or not? Do they still play? I had a little chuckle yesterday. My neighbor is installing a new sprinkling system because he likes to do that kind of home depot stuff. So he had holes dug in his yard, and i saw this white and black cat who comes around sometimes to entice my big black cat to do something cattish. The white cat was using my neighbors dirt holes to do his business. ha!

  111. David, did you like the food at the boarding school? Was there any fun at all there?

    • David says:

      The food wasn’t exactly gourmet cuisine. Unless you like chips (french fries), baked beans and fish fingers every other meal… Yes, we made our own fun and had a lot of laughs. More than I was having at home… Still, there were no girls and the atmosphere was stultifying and repressive. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie “Dead Poet’s Society”? This is a really wonderful film and has helped bring up feelings from this period in my life. You might want to check it out as there may well be a certain amount of crossover with military school. Similar kind of mentality behind it all.

      • Jo says:

        David, and for anyone else interested, this is a link to a documentary on Youtube about boarding school..

        • Patrick says:

          Thanks for that Jo, that was really nice and very touching in places (I went to boarding school but at 13 and by my own ‘choice’ – I wanted to go there)…………………I couldn’t help but wonder though do you find a kind of strong similarity with going to the retreats? I had about an equal amount of ‘flashbacks’ to the boarding school and the retreats I went to (2 all together). That sort of ‘fitting in’ atmosphere which maybe was why I could not fit in………….

          • Patrick says:

            Jo – I am still curious it you see some connection between your going to boarding school at a very young age and traipsing to retreats or is it repeats on a very regular basis. Doesn’t that also seem like ‘institutionalized’ behavior? It even is called an “Institute” I say that not to put you down we ALL repeat our patterns in very uncanny ways.It’s just well following my notion or actually my Dad’s ab out often the ‘cure being worse than the disease’ I don’t think anything should be off limits. I find that kind of approach very helpful to me though I am aware it is also the kind of approach that gets me ‘shunned’ here. A little club of which you may well be a member.(more institutionalized behavior?) It seems everyone pretty much now if a member except Otto. Which to to me at least speaks to his individuality and refusal to belong to lame clubs. I admire that very much.

        • Sylvia says:

          How dreadful the boarding schools look for 8 y/o little boys dressed in their little suits not wanting to leave their moms and dads. Can’t the headmasters even see that. The grown men tell of their lonely desperate times they spent there in youth and it’s still happening to children now. Will have to watch it all later, too heartbreaking to see more now.

        • David says:

          Jo, thanks for this. I’ll admit I’m feeling quite a bit of resistance to looking at this. But I will do when I’m ready.

        • Phil says:

          Jo,
          I watched this film and what a sad and desolate feeling it gives to imagine going to such a school. Impossible to think of sending my child to such a place.
          My brother was sent to a school for special children because he had emotional problems and couldn’t function in regular schools. This was starting when he was about age 10. We wouldn’t see him for many months at a time. In my memory, he wasn’t really a part of the family during those years. This couldn’t have helped him any as he ended up psychotic. I would often go on the trip to get him or drop him off and was certainly glad not to be the one left there.
          Maybe it was recommended because we were a family with no mother, the schools couldn’t deal with him, and so they paid for him to be sent away.
          Other things I think of; sleeping over someones else’s house as a child; one night was more than enough. As a parent, my experience has been, friends staying over at our house are sick and tired of my kid, and want to go home the next day. Friends are nice but you don’t want to live with them. There’s nothing like your own home, unless for some reason it’s hell. It was never so bad in my case that I’d want to be sent away.
          I didn’t even like going to day school. That had plenty of traumatic aspects for me. Our schools are bad enough how they are. Living at one? That would be torture. Even conventional therapists, I see, can recognize the damage done, as it shows in the film.
          These boarding schools are clearly such a horrible tradition, taking away childhood. The film shows such institutional environments, and people just fooling themselves that this is a good thing. Why be a parent and then send your child to such a place? Thanks for sharing this. Sorry that you had this experience.
          Phil

  112. swisslady says:

    Hi David, yes, I remember you from Terry’s group. Long time no see… Yes, it is taking me a long time. Like in your case, there were many other ‘less bad’ things to feel first. I needed to grow emotionally and mentally to get to the point where I can approach the more horrendous stuff. I am revisiting these incidents at this time probably because both of my parents (fairly) recently passed away and my childhood home was sold. Saying the last goodbyes and being ‘thrown out into the world’ brought up the old traumas again.

    I have been familiar with the incidents surrounding the time when I wanted to kill myself for years. But each time I approach it again, I’m faced with another aspect. This time the betrayal and its long-term effects. Not able to trust anybody. Keep myself to myself. Be independent and self-reliant. Keep people at a distance. Protect myself. I have only just recently revealed certain things about myself to Gretchen (and my husband), thoughts and feelings that I have been carrying around for years. This is how much I needed to protect myself. This is how scared I have been, still am in a lot of ways. But I’m stronger now and can talk about my secret inner life a bit more.

    What is still a mystery to me at this point is, why did I want to kill myself? What exactly preceded that moment when I crawled up on the window sill and wanted to jump, break my head open on the cement below so that the blood would spill out, then fly up to heaven and be with God? Such were the thoughts of the three-year old. What happened to me? Do I really want to know?

    As I mentioned, I’ve had some flashbacks, that was years ago, it started on a road trip up to Oregon. Every time we drove by a Dairy Queen, I gagged and almost joked, moaned, screamed, coughed. My thoughts associated ‘dairy’ with a gooey, slimy, foul-tasting mass. Kind of like curdled milk only worse. Later flashbacks in therapy revealed a joking hand around my neck, the location of the event (in the same pantry where I was locked up before, only this time it served as a hiding place), something very big in my mouth, way to big for a child’s mouth. Not allowed to make a noise. Smells. Sweat. Suppressed grunts. Terror. Do I really want to know more??

    It could be straight forward: I was orally raped and then wanted to kill myself. Or it could be a combination of all the traumas at that time (total rejection, lock up, abandonment, my younger sister taking away mom from me) that finally made me lose my will to live. Maybe both. Maybe it doesn’t matter.

    By the way, does anybody know how hard it is to keep on living every day when all you want to do is die? (And not able to tell anyone). I’ve lived like this for years. Not anymore. I don’t want to die anymore now. I actually want to live. I call that progress.

    You wrote “I think the real courage is in living a conscious life, facing reality as much as possible on a daily basis, going for what I want to do, being with the people I want to be with, even when that is very challenging…” I agree very much. It is exactly what I am striving to do more. For years I was only surviving and struggling to keep up with the world. Now I am at a point where I have a bit more breathing space and can focus more consciously on what I really want. It is an exciting time but also scary, deeply challenging. The challenge being, what do I really want? Who am I deep down? How can I contribute to the world, in my unique way? And mostly: How far am I willing to go? Do I really want to know?
    Thanks for listening!
    –Bernadette

    • Jo says:

      Bernadette, wow, that’s compelling reading, and my gut is hurting… It started in your second paragraph “…this time the betrayal…” and resonates deeply….the betrayal started with early stays in hospital (at 18 months, 4 years) and no one visited me. The last straw being sent away to boarding school at 7ish. I am feeling it bit by bit…

    • David says:

      Hi Bernadette,

      “This time the betrayal and its long-term effects. Not able to trust anybody. Keep myself to myself. Be independent and self-reliant. Keep people at a distance. Protect myself.”

      I have not felt those feelings of betrayal yet, but the effects you describe I relate to very much. I see how I attract people and then keep them at arm’s length, afraid to let them closer. And I see the confusion and resentment that creates in others. I see it happening, but feel powerless to change it. At least now I am learning a little more why I am like that.

      As I’ve said, I have not had access to specific details about what happened to me. I remember when I was four or five, my second year in primary school, there was an image in a children’s book that absolutely terrified me. It showed a child’s bedroom at night, the child asleep, and then behind him an adult figure silhouetted in the open doorway. At the time I thought the adult figure was a ghost coming to haunt the child. When other kids at school found out about it, they would use the image to taunt me, chasing me under tables and desks.Eventually the teacher had to take the book away from them and hide it. But I remember the intensity of that fear very well. Kind of like a phobic reaction.

      Thanks for sharing, it sounds like you are making great progress.

  113. Jo says:

    And Bernadette, thank you for sharing, being courageously open.

  114. Jo says:

    Adding, I read almost everything and also am appreciative to others that courageously share also…

  115. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > haha, smart cat, big prefab toilet at hand, soft soil to scratch back in! thought for a moment you were gonna tell it was caught by surprise by the new sprinkling system..
    >
    > my two cats are brothers, just one year old since a few weeks, and their names are Pluche and Plukkie.
    > they are basically creamy white, with a dark mask and ears, a dark tigry tail, and one multicoloured spot on one hip, both of them.
    > the one that was a tiny poorlooking kitty grew faster than his brother who was a bit bigger at first, caught up with him and the once smaller one now is a big cat, thick lush fur, and the other one is a more slender silky haired version of the same.
    >
    > they get along really well, being brothers from the same litter, and are neutered.
    >
    > will post some pictures if ever I find out how to get them from my Iphone to my laptop or find some other way to select the best ones and post them.
    > of course they are gorgeous smiley, and full of endearing mischief..
    >
    > they are the best way to make my blood pressure drop when I feel stressed, and brighten up my days big time.
    > and they look very happy too, love each others company , and mine as well, smiley, they like to be petted very much and come to ask for it or invite me by just jumping on me and staring me straight in the face and if necessary thumping me with their head for an even stronger hint..
    > i have three cat doors so they can get around and outside where I installed a fence at the point they would start running the risk of jumping down a steep wall without being able to get bback up.
    > haha, could go on and on and on as you as a pet lover must know, but this is (more than ) enough for now, isn’t it?
    > thanks for the interest, smiley, M

  116. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > did I say the names are Pluche and Plukkie?
    > Pluche is the soft material on old movie seats, or in our slang as well a speck of dust or a dustball under the bed, or something fluffy.
    > Plukkie is just Plukkie, smiley.
    > ha, here is Plukkie rubbing his cheeks against the laptop, needs attention!
    > bye, M

  117. Patrick says:

    I don’t think this kind of thing is particularly welcome here but anyway I do it. Because it is what is on my mind a lot and also I suppose with the slight chance it might influence someone to do good. To me delving into the past is fine nothing wrong with it but to make it some kind of be all end all I am not on board with that. Especially as our future even if we have one at all is full of peril. To ‘reduce’ the future or even the present to an ‘old feeling’ is one of the ways we have gone badly astray all imo of course (only?). The world just might end for us and ironically enough not so much from ‘global warming’ but we have done to ‘prevent’ it. Very much a case as my Dad used to say ‘the cure is worse than the disease” and since this blog is about ‘cure’ that might be something to ‘meditate’ on…………………….

  118. Margaret says:

    > hi all,
    > this week we were contacted by the social worker from the nursing home where my mom is on an urgent waiting list, since last august.
    >
    > they offered a room in a ‘protected’ area, which we refused even without telling our mom.
    >
    > yesterday then they contacted us again, now with a room on the regular ward, and to make a long story short, I could not convince them to let us visit them on saturday with our mom as the social workers do not work that day, so instead of waiting til next week, I contacted my mom’s boyfriend, and asked him if he can go there and have a look with her today.
    >
    > I called my mom to let her know, and to my surprise she was actually pleased to go and see, with her boyfriend she seems more relaxed about it being pleasant for her, and I told her there is no pressure whatsoever, she is free to say no and wait for a later offer.
    >
    > she seemed actually considering the option of accepting it, and was amazingly reasonable and outspoken about the pros and cons, including our worries in the equation,
    > but also mentioning the fact she loves her freedom to go out on her own.
    >
    > she rarely does so, unless in her garden, but still, I understand of course, and told her she should relax and just go and have a look, and talk about it with her boyfriend.
    >
    > I told her all we want for her is her to be happy.
    > I did mention that if she chooses to stay in her house longer, we might want her to accept some household help once a week to help us out..
    >
    > so now she should be about to go there, and I feel, and think my brother also felt it when I talked with him on the phone, some kind of sadness about the possibility of this step being taken, we also grew up in that house, and it would be a major change.
    >
    > so I actually almost hope she will postpone it, although I might regret it later on, smiley, when she is irritating and wearing us out with her forgetfullness and insistant questions.
    >
    > feel glad though about the way I handled this today, finding solutions that are nice, no pressure whatsover, and noticing how my mom in those conditions is not completely selfish.
    > feel a bit teary about it..
    > will hear more later on today.
    > it is painful to think of mom going into a home, even though this is a really good one, a mix of oldfashioned cosiness and modern support, with a lot of activities offered to the residents and a large garden and cafeteria, and single rooms that are not too small, with a small little private restroom.
    >
    > she can still change her mind during the first days even if she would take it today, and in that case I would not object to that.
    >
    > to be continued…
    > M

  119. Margaret says:

    Margaret,
    I’ll be interested to hear what your mother decides. It’s a great way you’re handling it, with no pressure on her.
    Phil

  120. Margaret says:

    > it seems telling that the times I did go to stay with a girlfriend, once for several days at the age of about ten, and later several times around exam time in high school to ‘study’together, I did not seem to miss my own family household, was actually enjoying the social life and structure in the other families very much…
    >
    > I did miss my mom when we went for ten days to Switzerland with our class when I was 11, on a skiing and school trip we had to save for all the year before by buying special stamps that were then glued onto a special form until it was filled.
    > must have been a big expense for my parents.
    > there iI remember feeling terrible upon having lost one of the very funny letters my mom wrote, full o f little drawings etc.
    >
    > I hardly ever invited friends over to my own place, felt kind of ashamed about it..
    > also remembered while reading Phils comment a rule my mom mentioned of her own institutional life, that you always had to make sure to be a group of three, and not two, to prevent ‘special friendships’.
    > that must be hard if you want to just chat freely with a good friend..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      Interesting, as a child I always felt some stress and anxiety staying over at someone else’s house, even my own extended family. I wasn’t that comfortable with any of them.
      I can recall staying over at my aunt and uncle’s house and wetting the bed.
      What an embarrassment, I didn’t notify anyone or do anything about it.
      This was something which never happened at home.
      If I stayed over at a friend’s house, I didn’t like dealing with the parents. The best kind of sleepover was camping out in a tent in the backyard. I wouldn’t have been able to stand going away to boarding school. I didn’t get much from my father, but at least I felt comfortable with him. I was a very anxious kid, going away like that to school would have been the final straw.
      Phil

  121. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > it stays on my mind so I decided to mention it.
    > I really wonder if you are aware of the way you phrased that question to Jo, adding a number of insults to it really.
    > do you honestly want to get an answer from people by addressing them in that offensive and demeaning way?
    > if you are not conscious of it you have a serious problem.
    > if you do it consciously you might even have a bigger problem, you should definitely look at.
    > it does make me feel bad, as your need to connect is seeping through the cracks, but at the same time you completely sabotage yourself.
    > M

  122. David says:

    Recently, I had to make the difficult adjustment to finding out that a love interest of mine was not that interested, or not in the way I wanted, but in this process came to some really good insights.

    I had met her two and a half years ago at a 5Rhythms dance class and we became friends, hanging out after the class, going to the movies, having coffee dates and she came round to my house on occasions for dinner and for just hanging out. Though she had a boyfriend, she was affectionate with me physically, I’d flirted with her several times and she seemed to like it, and there were other instances which in my mind added up to a mutual attraction. I characterized our relationship as friendship plus sexual tension. There were several occasions where I’d wanted to make a more explicit advance, but had lost my nerve or found myself not knowing what do, and feeling the pain of my failure fairly quickly brought up the pain of having been raped by my father. Although it took two years of feeling that specific pain before I knew what it was.

    Recently she told me she had split up with her boyfriend, which really raised my hopes and expectations of a relationship with her. I just felt she needed some time to get over the break-up of a long term relationship before she started thinking about someone else. Then a couple of weeks later, in a casual phone conversation with a mutual friend, I found out she had a new guy. I found this news very painful and hugely triggering, bringing up a lot of old feelings in the following days. It seemed that unbeknownst to me, I’d had a rival and had lost out. I didn’t talk to her for several weeks and then, on an impulse, messaged her on Facebook, mentioning her new boyfriend, which led to a phone conversation.

    She seemed surprised and shocked that I was interested in her sexually, saying she had never been interested in me as anything other than a really good friend. When I pointed out to her all the ways I felt she had led me on, she became upset and apologetic, saying over and over: “I’ve been so naive and stupid. I just didn’t know. I’m so sorry”. I told her I found it really hard to be friends with women I’m attracted to and so wouldn’t be friends with her anymore. That seemed to upset her as well. I wonder if I needed to say that, or if it was just a straight tit-for-tat on my part: if I can’t have you the way I want, then you can’t have me the way you want. Maybe I just need time to figure out if we can still be friends. I just don’t want to be around her at the moment, and need her to know why I will probably be distant with her when I go back to dance. I do wonder though, if she is telling the truth about having no interest in me beyond friendship – and her reactions did seem real and honest – how I could have deluded myself so completely into believing there was something there, or the possibility of something, when there just wasn’t. She seemed to like me so much, I just immediately translated that into attraction in my mind. My need to have hope that someone was there who would love me must have completely distorted my view of reality. But I feel I needed that hope.

    After our conversation I sank into depression and inertia. But as I let myself feel this more deeply, I realized that this familiar frozen state was actually shock. Shock at what my father did to me, and realising that helped me feel some of that pain: “I’m just a little boy” and the now familiar “please don’t do it daddy”. I realised that things that I had seen in myself as character flaws – such as chronic inertia and laziness – and which I had berated myself for on countless occasions, were in fact something quite different. Rather I have been living in a chronic state of frozen shock since the abuse from my father when I was aged 3 or 4. I hope now that I’ve had this insight that I can be a little kinder to myself and cut myself a little more slack.

    Back to the present, and the dance class that my friend and her new boyfriend will be at is one of my stomping grounds, so I don’t want to stop going there just because they are going to be there, even though that will be hard. Maybe I just need to give myself more time.

  123. Patrick says:

    If I sound a bit ‘disturbed’ and pissed off…………………I am. I am reading and ‘studying’ a lot about this ‘geo engineering’ and it IS disturbing and it does piss me off. For good reason I would say.My brother in Ireland now says he will test the rainwater for all kinds of toxics heavy metals etc. He feels his farm and all around there is poisoned and I suspect he is correct. And while immersed in this I find it so weird here that people do not seem to care, will it take methane clouds where we will be choking and people here probably STILL will be saying ‘this reminds me of I was told my mother was gassed as I was being born etc’…………………as I say all this is valid but to make it to the exclusion of just about everything else. In this way primal is very ‘reactionary’ and so focused on ‘looking back’ I mentioned before Janov or God forbid maybe Barry might at least check into vaccine damage but no………………….all you will get is well maybe try to ‘re-live’ that vaccine damage………………..how limited and actually stupid is that. Barry once said ‘our pain makes us stupid’ and I said in reply ‘yes but what if primal KEEPS us stupid’……………..in many instances it has and it does imo…………….

  124. Patrick says:

    Last one (promise) this song well it just seems to the point. Werewolves of London to all the ‘shunning clubs’ all the uptight cold shouldering b………s hungry inside but use up and chew up other people…………….

  125. David says:

    Emily Smith’s wonderful cover version of Richard Thompson’s ‘Waltzings for Dreamers’:

    “One step’s for sighing
    Two steps for crying
    Waltzing’s for dreamers
    And losers in love.”

  126. Patrick says:

    I had one ‘experience’ with Jo she was actually my ‘buddy’ at the retreat when I came back Summer 2012. I thought I got on fine with her really was ok no problems at least that I was aware of. Though at the end of the week I was probably becoming a little ‘difficult’ as I got heavily into this notion that primal was a ‘cult’ and a cult in action that very week. So to say I understand if that upset her maybe again though I heard nothing about it from her I have learned though from these ‘expressors of feelings’ that does not mean there is not a problem

    Anyway what I want to get to on the Monday after the retreat finished on Sat I was sitting with a friend in front of Whole Foods in Venice with as it turns out an English friend who had been in primal also in the ’70’s even before me. I am glad to see Jo and attempt to make introductions and figured she would sit down for a while. But NO she seemingly is ‘busy’ and ‘in a hurry’ and had to rush off and I said to my friend ‘typical f…… primaller, all week this kind of ‘professional listening’ and now what does it mean ‘in reality’ well more or less nothing it seems. And that’s another thing about this freaking ‘cult’ it is so hypocritical and useless in any everyday sense. All of this ‘support’ is mostly just ‘professional’ and not real. I have found this out more than once and they gather year after year and mouth all this bullshit………………………

  127. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > wow, you really do not get the point of my question do you?
    >
    > it is clear you had absolutely no interest whatsoever in Jo’s opinions, although you pretend to ask about it all you want is to ‘help’ her by adopting your point of view.
    > she is absolutely right not to have responded imo.
    >
    > you say you did not insult so much, well, maybe you should have a second look and also boy, the whole rant that comes out in reply to my question makes me feel sorry I asked.
    > read it over again and admit to yourself you behave like an asshole towards her for simply refusing to take your poorly disguised bait.
    >
    > you seem to take no responsibility whatsoever about your own part in the whole dynamics of ending up alienating everyone.
    > it is starting to look you are getting out of touch of how it is to behave in a minimally respectful way.
    > take your time and look at yourself is all I can say, this hatred and contempt is not gonna make your life better, and is ugly to witness, I must say to my regret.
    > I am sorry about it, it is painful to read.
    > M

  128. Margaret says:

    > wish I had kept my mouth shut.
    > sorry folks.
    > M

  129. Patrick, There are a couple of things I want to say to you though I don’t anticipate you hearing me. Still I know there are some who will breathe a sigh of relief that it’s said. You keep referring to being shunned. I don’t think you are being ” shunned” if you want to call it that I think people don’t respond to you because you are not very nice. You seem to have little insight as to the constant hate and prejudice you bring to the blog and what’s worse is you have absolutely no respect for the opinions of others. You often pick someone to “compliment ” for supposedly not following the crowd but there’s nothing consistent or real about that either as it can change in a split second if that person dares to disagree with your uneducated and hatred filled rants. You focus on Jack attacking you with no insight as to what you might be doing to create that situation. Your conspiracy theories are all about your fear of just about everything and you don’t seem to see that either. It’s all about you though you disguise that in your so called concerns about the world. Even your story about Jo is a reflection of that. It never occurs to you that maybe there could be a good reason she was rushing or that you might ask her what was going on, no, you decide to come here and insult her and then wonder why she’s not responding. You have spent months insulting the therapy and when you did not receive the reaction you hoped for you simply decided to attack Jews. Next week it will be something else. You refer to being bullied as a child yet you don’t really seem to see how you have spent your life re-creating that and that you are now a bully as well. All that being said I am concerned for you. I feel you need help and I honestly am concerned for your physical health as well as what’s going on psychologically. I think you should get a check up and find a therapist that will be brutally honest with you. Maybe put the books aside that were written by conspiracy theorists, nazis and deniers and focus on yourself. I can’t imagine that you don’t see that something serious is going on. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – thanks for bothering (I mean that) I don’t know where to start or even if I should. But this thing of ‘shunning’ is bothering me. Not to bring it back to Jack but I have to the fact now that he NEVER comments on anything I say after over 4 years of ALWAYS commenting well it does kind of ‘weird’ me out……………….like some kind of ‘backroom deal’ has been made like let’s just totally ignore this guy (me). So what you might say? And really I am very glad Jack leaves me alone that’s a great relief. But knowing him as I feel I do I would not read any genuine ‘change of heart’ into this. It feels more ‘strategic’ by him and also the fact he gives no ‘explanation’ for a big change for him. How does he go from compulsive reflexive constant criticism to …………….nothing. I mean I don’t really care and I am glad if anything but to me he hardly has a ‘heart’ so if he changes it in my mind is just some more ‘strategy’ and probably no really good motive or certainly no ‘change of heart’ Jack to me does not do ‘change’ and he hardly has any ‘heart’ so there…………………but then I notice it seems there is some kind of overall agreement or ‘deal’ not to address me in any way by everyone else too. And it seems like some ‘change’ Jack has written his blog Bernadette is all of a sudden very ‘active’ but it seems to connect with more ‘ignoring’ of me and well it’s like I hate these kind of people and then add in all the ‘hypocricy’ I feel this and I feel that and SO ‘supportive’ all the time except to me…………………

      I guess I am trying to give some background to me commenting to Jo about the boarding school video. I honestly feel I did the first one to ‘help’ her but when I see the same stuffy English cold shoulder and from someone I have never had a problem with well they yes I agree the 2nd comment I made was a bit ‘insulting’ but it’s my frustration as to the seemingly ‘orchestrated shunning’.OK somehow I have caused this………………….and I suppose I have but still in my mind it’s like should I have? What I mean is I really sort of don’t get a ‘group’ that is supposed to be about ‘expressing feelings’ and yet mostly what you get is this kind of weak tea of ‘oh I know what you mean’ ‘oh I can relate to that’ ‘oh yes we are with you’ on and on blah blah blah. It feels pretty much phony and then combine that with ‘ignoring’ anything I say and in my mind what I am saying is ‘important’ or at least sometimes it is. This thing of the environment being sprayed with all kinds of poisons and the weather being manipulated has ‘disturbed’ me enormously. If there was ANYTHING I counted on and I had recently become more and more aware of this was ‘nature’ All my ‘therapy’ to use a word involved ‘nature’ for example the last 6 months every morning I would actually watch the sun rise and sit and ‘meditate’ until about 10 o’clock. My ‘mind’ would go in and out and in all directions and a lot of ‘pain’ too as in ‘facing’ things I have avoided all my life. It is hard to describe but I found it so liberating and ‘therapeutic’ to use a word. It’s like I felt I have really found the key to the lock here and I made it such a big part of my life. But now with this thing I am finding out about ‘chemtrails’ etc it feels like can I say ‘once again’ something wonderful I have found will be taken away from me is about to be taken away from me. I admit I am having a super hard time with all this

      So rather than ‘argue’ maybe I should just leave it there. It was not only the morning sun I mentioned last year how I had found this creek in Topanga this year I started going there almost everyday. It was just amazing totally isolated I would bathe in the cold water more ‘meditating’ and reading too. I said to a friend I had found a way to have a ‘good day’ start to finish and well is that taken away too. It feels like it has since I have found out about ‘chemtrails’ I have not even been to the creek (about i month). In fact it was there I came aware of them I saw one so clearly it seemed almost at the tree tops so bright and glistening and EVIL pure poison and then I notice as beautiful as the environment is there nature is not so ‘healthy’ the trees seem a bit sick no birds much only lizards seem to be there. They are probably tougher than birds or mammals. Anyway it’s like I am in shock really the very thing the ONLY thing I could count on………………..well I can’t and it seems it IS taken away.

      I talk a lot to my brother ini Ireland same story there if maybe in a different way, we talk and talk and it starts to feel tragic or beyond maybe the end of the world. So OK I know I can get ‘hyperbolic’ or ‘self important’ but that’s what I am dealing with. So then if I mention this as I have and get NO reaction it’s like who are these people? Are their heads shoved up so far you know where they do not know or care? Are they just genuinely part of the great propagandized masses or are they just being mean and small minded………………………whatever it is it get’s my goat and I start to say something about it. But really it’s a storm in a teacup the way I see it we are all doomed and some are more aware of it than others so what we are still all doomed……………….

      But thanks for caring Gretchen and taking your time…………….

  130. Patrick says:

    A little bit more about sitting in the morning sun……………………I even wanted to talk about how me at least now this IS ‘therapy’ it private, alone, no need to talk or impress anyone………………..and also in my own case ‘facing’ things can get kind of ‘complicated’ and a lot of it centers on ‘therapy’ itself I see and feel the truth of it a lot but also I deal with the ‘mistakes’ I made because of my ‘belief’ in it it can be and often is a very 2 edged sword…………..so really when Jo talks as he does a lot about being sent to boarding school and that is more than and very ‘understandable’ and knowing myself now I feel a bit more and how we DO ‘repeat’ our patterns is some amazingly deep ways and I just got a ‘flash’ about her as I might about myself………………like OMG her going to retreats so religiously SHE is still going to boarding school……………..It was NOT meant as an ‘insult’ no it was not it was like oh wow I SEE that now. And I am serious about this as ‘true’ as primal theory might be it can be and HAS been for me ‘damaging’ also the very ‘belief’ is a problem it makes a space between really living and experiencing life, the theory has become the ‘defense’ maybe even the MAIN defense…………………….and the ‘practice’ too not just the theory and for that moment I saw Jo in that way…………….go to retreats forever and ever forever going to boarding school forever being sent away in the hands of people who ;know better’ except clearly they didn’t and they don’t but STILL do it a life in prison a prison of the past and the very attempt to escape the prison is MORE of it………………I accept it is none of my business but it hit me that way can I say with a straight face ‘excuse me for caring’ I feel that I can………………..

  131. Patrick says:

    Life in prison……………….and that’s the way I feel if nature has truly been taken away. I am in prison it seems to me we are all in prison, isn’t that what prison is no blue sky, no fresh air just a substitute reality. Everything is just some ‘fake’ reality now……………

  132. Patrick says:

    Life in prison……………and then they sent me to ‘solitary confinement’ so I lashed out as people do there…………..ever watch that MSNBC program that is on all weekend of people in prison in the US…………….pure horror and terror…………………I think it’s called “Lockup” I can watch that for a few minutes at a time………………anything more is just too horrific…………..and if I can say that is another reason the idea of sending people to prison because of their ‘beliefs’ is very wrong and it DOES happen in Germany now at least, here it could be for just about anything it seems……….

  133. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > you are very selective in your representation of your own facts depending of the context.
    >
    > you now claim your first comment to Jo was only you trying to be nice and helpful to her, and there was no insulting being done.
    >
    > one one hand I think you should reread it, and on the other hand you omit some points you formerly stated yourself, namely?
    > you said while buddying at the retreat your view of primal being a cult probably started causing some problems
    > your associations with your experience in boarding school also coloured your perception making it all look kind of negative
    >
    > you interpreted JO’s not sitting down with you in Venice and telling you she was busy in a very negative way, jumping to very coloured and byassed conclusions about her motives, and obviously felt hurt and angry, extending it to ‘all those primal folks’
    > your feeling leaked clearly through in your way of adressing her, which did not come across as an attempt to help at all, but plainly leaking anger.
    >
    > then on top of it all you added you might come across as being disturbed but that had to do with your concern about the world’s state.
    >
    > and still, in your reply to Gretchen, all you focus on is the blame lying with the other person, you only meaning to be nice etc.
    > you really refuse to take a good look at yourself and what drives you,which will only engrain your current behaviour more deeply, even if you meditate every day.
    >
    > you seem so stuck in being a victim, being misunderstood, and not taking responsibility for initiating 99 percent of your interactions with agression and insults, thus creating rejection in advance.
    >
    > there imo lies the true problm, if you initiate with agression, what do you expect will happen?
    >
    > and if you have no respect or interest for other views, what is your goal? to be rejected over and over and over? what point do you need to prove?
    > how to break this cycle?
    >
    > just wondering theoretically, as I do not expect this will in any way be taken in, as you say all you want to do is punch for blood to flow, which is not a way to make friends or communicate in a constructive way, imho.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – to maybe get away from he said she said they said this IS what I wrote to Jo after she put on the video about boarding school and after I had watched it

      Patrick says:
      May 19, 2016 at 5:26 am
      Thanks for that Jo, that was really nice and very touching in places (I went to boarding school but at 13 and by my own ‘choice’ – I wanted to go there)…………………I couldn’t help but wonder though do you find a kind of strong similarity with going to the retreats? I had about an equal amount of ‘flashbacks’ to the boarding school and the retreats I went to (2 all together). That sort of ‘fitting in’ atmosphere which maybe was why I could not fit in………….

      So do you see any ‘insults’ there. I don’t and even though the tradition here is to be all what Jack calls lovey dovey well honestly I felt after watching that first off it reminded ME of the retreats more than my own experience in boarding school. I mean I don’t know what to tell you beyond that so then I thought of Jo and well how it might be a ‘pattern’ Is this now off limits to even suggest such a thing? Is that an insult? If so we have gone even further down the road of fake politeness than I even imagined.

      To maybe change the subject a bit I went to boarding school because I wanted to and really I liked it there I never felt particularly regimented also I went at 13 Jo was much younger so that’s of course a different and more serious situation. Also it was an Irish boarding school I think we managed to avoid the worse of the kind of preparation to run the British Empire if you know what I mean. We had tennis and football and music and lots of things there and though run by Catholic priests never a hint of sex exploitation of any kind by priests or pupils or anyone. Contrary to what you would expect from reading the newspapers…………………………

    • Patrick says:

      As far as being ‘selective’ Margaret you do a fine job yourself imo

  134. just briefly, angry and depressed out of my gourd. thanks for listening.

  135. Margaret says:

    > well, Patrick, why didn’t you add the part about the patterns?
    > I might be wrong, am not gonna look it up, but I have the strong impression you only reproduced part of your original comment to Jo.
    > but hey, go ahead if you insist on putting your head in the sand.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Well NO actually Margaret and I think it is telling that you think it is edited somehow by me. If my copy and paste works and I have checked that it did that is exactly what I wrote to her. So…………………might that not raise some questions in your mind my so called ‘insults’ are very often in the minds of the listeners I do believe. So I can be a bit blunt and I have my moments but do you really want a kind of continued yenta fest pity party where we all ‘relate’ and ‘identify’ endlessly and nothing much is said about anything

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – to be absolutely clear the bit about the ‘patterns’ was my second try after she I felt pointedly did not answer to the first one. OK I was getting a bit pissed off by then I will admit but again also because she had done her ‘shunning’ number which interestingly enough she is still doing……………..Jesus Christ I don’t bite and even if I did I cannot at this distance……………..people could use some loosening up imo…………………….how about some ecstasy or at least pot or something (to be clear I don’t use any drugs at least that I know of. What’s put in the food or sprayed in the air I have not much choice about) To make is easy for you Margaret this is what I wrote later more than a day later when it was clear she was doing her ‘shunning act’ which interestingly enough she is still doing just another attempt to get a ‘rise’ out of her as we used to say in Ireland

      Patrick says:
      May 20, 2016 at 4:57 am
      Jo – I am still curious it you see some connection between your going to boarding school at a very young age and traipsing to retreats or is it repeats on a very regular basis. Doesn’t that also seem like ‘institutionalized’ behavior? It even is called an “Institute” I say that not to put you down we ALL repeat our patterns in very uncanny ways.It’s just well following my notion or actually my Dad’s ab out often the ‘cure being worse than the disease’ I don’t think anything should be off limits. I find that kind of approach very helpful to me though I am aware it is also the kind of approach that gets me ‘shunned’ here. A little club of which you may well be a member.(more institutionalized behavior?) It seems everyone pretty much now if a member except Otto. Which to to me at least speaks to his individuality and refusal to belong to lame clubs. I admire that very much.
      Reply

  136. i moved to L.A. in 1989, from Long Beach CA. One of the major reasons for the move was that i wanted to get into the “Primal Community” and make some primal friends. I started PT in 1985 and I could rarely afford to go after the 3 weeks, so I thought moving closer could help me out with my therapy. In 1989, I did not even have non-primal friends, and had not had friends since 1973. I had some drug and drinking buddies in the Navy and a little while after I left the Navy, but not real friends. Anyway, moving to L.A. tore my kids away from their grandmother in Long Beach, setting the stage for horrible events later on in my family’s lives. Anyway, I guess the point I am trying to make is, 2016, my therapy has been a struggle since the start, I never have gotten into the whole Primal Community thing, ever, like where you go to other patients’ houses, or coffee dates, I also only have attended a few retreats and pretty much tried to keep away from other attendees as much as possible. I pretty much cannot stand to be around people. Yesterday, I hear there was a wedding of some patient that I know, a person that was always friendly to me. I did not know about the wedding, so I went to the PI to use the little back room for crying as I have been for a couple of months. So I guess BB had gone to the wedding, and probably a lot of his group members, so I was out of luck for that room usage. Anyway, I am going to have to run; take kid home and walk with wife and his dog, so I will try to finish up here. And let me say, while I am at it, I cant wait until she goes to Ohio, probably just an old feeling, or not, and I hope she stays there. Anyway, so of course I was not invited to the wedding, because I am totally unable to have an intimate or even a casual relationship, and most likely never will. I had been going to Saturday and even Sunday groups for a while until the old dachshund got sick and until Z’s income was severely slashed, and I had tried to be a tiny bit involved in the PC, even had a buddy for a while (RIP), but nothing came out of it. I should be making the normal human contact anyone would make, to see if BB was going to be at the PI on every Saturday. I should be having a session with BB or GB from time to time. I feel bad for being left out of the wedding because of my lifelong pains. Hence the anger and depression early cited. Not to mention that when I drove to the PI yesterday, I had to drop off Z and kid on the way, and she was shaming me about the McDonalds and other heart-killer wrappers that I had in the back seat of the car. Really really shaming, so I am pretty fucking pissed at her, even though I am always pissed at her for the misery that she has caused me for 40 years. Anyway, no time to finish this up. Yes I am a victim. Yes to all of the above. Piece of slime who only deserves this life. Whatever.

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, shaming is so judgmental bummer and non-supporting. There has to be a happy medium between shaming and enabling, like ” you’ll do better cause you know you are worth it, and keep trying.” Keep on truckin.

      Patrick, I think Gretchen’s advice made a lot of sense, the last five sentences especially are very practical. Also it is not normal to feel such doom and gloom. We all are aware of what’s happening around us. The oceans heating up, the wars, the injustices. We live with it and can stay informed or take a more active role. But If it causes anxiety and depression then it’s something to get help about and not ignore. L.A. must be the Mecca for therapists; there has to be many to help. I think it was good advice (of Gretchen’s) to take concrete steps to help yourself.

      • Patrick says:

        Thanks Sylvia for caring though I don’t really see ‘doom and gloom’ as some kind of psychiatric issue to me it is more of just the reaction I have. I don’t second guess that so much if I can find a way to do something about it that is what would help me feel better. So I am doing that as much as I can and also talking to people who are also concerned. They are out there! quite a few once you scratch the surface.

  137. Margaret says:

    > well Patrick,
    > the bottom line remains the same, you have come to a point where you find it normal and acceptable to insult and offend people and then blame them for not feeling eager to interact with you.
    >
    > with the long reply, rant, you posted later it became crystal clear you were already pissed to start with.
    >
    > your anger and bitterness and distrust colours all your perceptions and seems to make it increasingly hard to function and communicate and just for yourself to feel good about anything at all.
    > if retreats reminded you of boarding school that is what you should have talked about instead of backing out.
    > eternally venting your anger and contempt and lashing out at anyone within reach won’t get you anywhere and will certainly not make you a happier person.
    > if anything you should try to connect those feelings to their true sources instead.
    > but hey, it is your life.
    > I’d advice you to make a clear choice for yourself to either give therapy a real and genuine try or to go and do other things, as with what you are doing now you are tearing yourself apart with the pointless combination of agression and need.
    > the need is genuine, the agression is an act out as you do not want to connect it with your underlying feelings seemingly, which sadly enough you tend to label as weakness.
    > you will probably just wipe this off the table as anal-izing, but it is sad to see a person torture himself and hurt others in the process as well.
    > have you ever wondered what all this defensiveness is about?
    > M

  138. Margaret says:

    > I feel a bit distressed.
    > now that mom said no to the available room when she visited it with her boyfriend, and we did not mind too much, thought to give her more time to stay in her house till the next room becomes available, she is suddenly getting more confused.
    > had her on the phone, and she kept asking where my brother was to give her her clothes, while she was already dressed, and it is evening.
    > it is painful, and worrying.
    > my brother has a little trip planned for four days on Thursday, and although our mom started hesitating about the room again during the weekend, we could not do anything about it as the social workers need to be there.
    > they had probably already contacted someone else on Friday too…
    >
    > now i regret she did not take it, it is such a shame the unlike the first social worker I had on the phone, the next one told us we could not come and look at the room on a saturday, so we ended up letting our mom go see it on friday with her boyfriend.
    > we had never imagined she would be so open to the idea already of taking it, and of course he did not encourage her despite she asked him for his advice..
    > sigh…
    > it is such a equilibrium act to try and walk the line between taking care and respecting our mom’s opinions and the rules and opportunities of the nursing home.
    >
    > especially as our mom’s opinions tend to change quickly, but now she seems kind of starting to feel lost alone in her house not knowing if it is evening or morning etc.
    > will probably call the home tomorrow and explain them, if only to make sure they contact us again if another room comes free..
    > hopefully it won’t take another 9 months again..
    > it would be nice if they would still have the current one but I doubt it, they must have contacted someone else by now..
    > i hate the idea of her being confused and scared and feeling lost, luckily she was able to give me a call so she can still do that on occasions, and I will contact her frequently the coming days..
    > M

    • Leslie says:

      Sorry for you Margaret and all you are taking care of…
      It is so much to be making these decisions with all the practical and then emotional implications.
      Thinking of you,
      ox L

  139. DENIAL: The deniers. There are so many things I/we can all be in denial about. As I see it ‘neurosis’ is just that: a denial that we are in pain, either subconsciously or otherwise.

    There are climate deniers
    There are chemtrail deniers
    There are Holocaust deniers
    There are God deniers. I’m one of those
    There are Primal Therapy deniers.
    And on and on on ad infinitum.

    All I am left with is, to take what evidence there seems to be about any one of them and come to my own decision. What I am aware of; if there is a conspiracy to deny something on such a grand scale it is hard for me to deny it. One example for me:- Having lived through the second world war and heard the bombs drop whilst being in an air raid shelter it would be hard for me to deny that WWII ever took place. Further, after seeing pictures in the newspapers and on news reels (before the advent of TV) of people near death from starvation, lots of them supposedly in death camps in Germany, it would be very hard for me to imaging that on such a large scale that this could have been a fake. I’m absolutely sure that someone would have blown the whistle and exposed the whole thing.

    However, it does not necessarily follow that thousands nay millions were gassed in these round ups of Jew, Gypsies, Gays and the mentally retarded. Adolph Hitler made it quite plain in Mein Kamp, that he hated Jews … and presumable also gypsies and gays. For what purpose were they rounded up? It would be way beyond anything I can conjure up that they were merely in need of de-lousing.

    One other denial:- Many that read “The Primal Scream” and then came to LA and plonked down the money and when their hopes were dashed, to BLAME the therapy for it “not working” is a bit of a stretch. It would be tantamount to me claiming that the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art; that I gained access to and did one whole year, to DENY that it could teach students some of the techniques to acting. “The fault dear Jack was not in the Academy; but in myself that I didn’t quite have the talent”. It is hard to accept failure … and so easy to BLAME the institution.

    It’s called “being DEFENSIVE”. If I have it right (no guarantee of course that I do) After decades of denial is is hard to eliminate all my defenses. BUT I’ll go on whilst I have breath and my heart ticks. Oh!!! forgot I am told I don’t have one … sorry. Got that one wrong.

    Jack

  140. Patrick, I’m sure you are aware that most Germans don’t agree with you nor do they see the Holocaust as you do. I’m not sure why you are so offended by my use of the words Deniers and Nazis ( I recall you being offended previously by the word Nazi). I did not come up with those names and those involved freely refer to themselves as Nazis or Deniers. Are you saying you prefer not to be called a denier? Hate filled rants? I can only suggest you go back and read your previous posts. You are not discussing a political viewpoint dispassionately but rather spewing a great deal of hate, rage and prejudice. Perhaps you are not aware of that. Yes, my belief is that prejudice always reveals a lack of understanding and education ( I don’t mean formal education by the way). Don’t you think that’s true? In the end and quite ironically I see you as proof positive there was in fact a Holocaust. I’m sure that might come as a surprise to you. Every word of denial is further proof of what happened. I’m not really interested in a debate however, there is no point. I was just trying to say I am concerned and I would love to see you get a check up and to find a good therapist. The last thing relates to comments you made about the retreat and what you said to Jo. I did not find your first comment to Jo to be aggressive but it did seem you had an agenda. I think you were trying to make a point and unfortunately that isn’t going to make the other person want to engage. You also are leaving a big fat piece out of your retreat experience. As I recall you liked your first retreat at least enough to sign up for the next one. But maybe you don’t recall leaving the second one . Maybe that could be another reason Jo was not responsive to you. I think your anger gets the best of you quite often, possibly to your detriment. I’m just trying to point out that maybe people are not responsive because of how you approach them. Gretchen

  141. Margaret says:

    > thanks Leslie.
    > will call the home and check if possibly they still have the room but am afraid not.
    > this morning mom sounded better again..
    > it would be a relief if she’d be there well surrounded with lots of social company and activities and safety.
    > and so much less worry and pressure on our shoulders as well.
    > M

  142. Patrick says:

    This thing about not liking the ‘atmosphere’ seems to go very deep in me. LIke even say the ‘primal atmosphere’ I have to concede in the end it in many ways comes down to that. Like I may think and I have for years and years Jack to be ‘deluded’ but maybe more important or telling is he LIKED it I felt ‘uncomfortable’ in it. This does go deep in me. So I put my faith in ‘nature’ natural food, sunshine, wind, cold everything about nature. And now that fails me nature is screwed it seems I thought I went back to something that could not fail and more and more I find out even the weather is not natural anymore. Even sun and wind are ‘engineered’ so what’s left………………………nothing much I’m afraid maybe ‘fight’ it but I am getting old and tired. If I think about ‘atmosphere’ is the stuff we bathe in breathe in and if that is going on gone can you say it’s a ‘big deal’ I’m afraid I can.

    I think also going back to the sun and wind as a child again it was something I could count on all the rest was up for grabs. Also I mentioned it is an ‘Irish’ thing to love the weather……………………..our weather is gone………………

  143. Margaret says:

    > my brother will go look at a room again tomorrow with our mom, even while none is really available right away.
    > it will hopefully simply be useful in the process.
    >
    > boy, folks, please keep writing here, I don’t want this page being momopolized by the usual sort of … (to be filled in freely)..
    >
    > part of my feeling now is what about me?
    > I need attention as well, and it triggers the old sadness and hopelessness to lose out again.
    >
    > just mentioning the old feeling, in the present I will survive and am glad not to have to go through the same lengths to well, it starts feeling like drama queen behavior lately.
    > the sneery type of drama queen..
    > M

  144. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    It seems like your mother isn’t going to make it easier for you.
    Phil

  145. Phil says:

    My high school class has scheduled a reunion, I see on it’s facebook page. Observing this has brought up a lot of feelings. Of the people who say they are going I don’t recognize anyone. Nothing is different in that I can’t see going to this reunion because there is nothing to celebrate, almost no one to reunite with, because I wasn’t really there the first time, while in school. It has brought up a lot of feelings of how much I acted out and excluded myself when I really wanted to be included.
    Another reason why it’s important for me to go to the retreat and be included, and I will be going.
    Phil

    • David says:

      Phil, there seems to be a much bigger tradition of school reunions in the US than in the UK. Actually, I don’t think there IS one over here. None that I’ve been invited to anyway.There’s a couple of school friends I’m in touch with via Facebook, and one in particular who I’d like to see again, if I can get up to his neck of the woods in the summer. Also, one very good friend from art school who I think of from time to time, who I’ve sadly lost touch with. But a full blown reunion of everyone? No, I wouldn’t be very into that either… I remember some fun and good times. But also a lot of cliques, bullying and sarcasm. Though maybe people have mellowed out over time..
      Great that you’re going to the retreat. Wish I could be there.

      • Phil says:

        David,
        I would only go to the reunion for therapeutic reasons as it holds little attraction for me.
        But I am curious about it, maybe as a reminder of what I missed out on in the past and since then. There would need to be at least a couple of friends attending. Out of a class
        of about 300 I’m imagining at least 50 to 100 guests showing up. It’s quite unlikely I’ll go but I do have feelings about the whole thing.
        If not this year, maybe another year you can attend the retreat. It would be nice to meet you there.
        Phil

  146. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > lately she seems to be showing more of her vulnerable side instead of always being argumentative.
    > she asked many times for our opinion on the decision of taking the room or not, and admits more easily it is getting difficult for her to feel confused.
    > she also spontaneously acknowledges our position as to probably feeling more at ease with her safely being taken car of.
    > of course there is still her ‘temper’ and her lack of memory complicating things, so we have to try and navigate cautiously between allowing her as much freedom as possible to make up her mind and making sure she makes the best decision as it is clearly becoming more urgent gradually which forces us to consider the possible problem if it takes another ten months or so before a new room gets free.
    > so far things seem to go ahead in a very nice way, with mostly gentleness, care and patience and appreciation from her part for it.
    > i am so glad to have my brother by my side in all of this, we make a good team.
    > thanks for responding Phil, I appreciate it a lot as I can use the feeling of support.
    > M

  147. Margaret says:

    > Phil, at the last retreat we shared you did make me feel included.
    > you continuously telling me how the Belgian football team played in a bar in Santa Barbara, made me feel part of things, and not lost as so often is the case when I am in a group of people.
    > a bad coincidence we happened to beat the American team, smiley..
    > sorry, smiley..
    > thanks for that, it was really very nice.
    > M

  148. Quote:- From third rant, last paragraph “….the purpose is to get OVER it isn’t it …. ” No no and no. In just his one line you display your total lack of what Primal Therapy is all about. It’s not about getting ‘over’ anything. I could give you my take, but I suspect (with a great deal of certainty) it will only go into your deaf ear.

    Incidentally I was not at the retreat you walked out on, BUT from what I heard it was merely that one person refused to shake you hand. You mis-represent almost everything. You are indeed Patrick a very sad person and I feel things will only go from bad to worse for you.

    Jack

  149. Sylvia says:

    Margaret, I am thinking of you and know that it is not easy to be in that position of encouraging your mom to live in a more safe but unfamiliar place. I’ve heard it takes about three weeks for someone to get used to living in the residential care. My brother and I waited as long as we could and wished the room had become available a little sooner as Mom was becoming quite stubborn in letting us help her with daily needs: taking pills, bathing, sleeping, eating etc. because of the dementia. She really was quite tired of being so isolated with me so I think she liked the socialness of being around more people. It was an adjustment but there were people there at the care home to help her with everything. Hope your plans will go as you want them.
    Take care and I’m glad you have the support of your brother as I did with mine too; will be thinking of you–keep writing.
    S

  150. Margaret says:

    > thanks a lot Sylvia.
    > will keep you posted, smiley, M and cats

  151. Patrick says:

    I remember the name it is Renee! Hi Renee don’t know if you follow the blog or not but I would actually be interested in what you know about Reich especially if you anything his weather ‘experiments’ You have always struck me as someone a bit more open to ‘ideas’ than the usual know nothing see nothing it’s all in the primal cannon as exemplified especially by Fundamentalist Primal PR man himself. the ‘author’ of the present blog and don’t forget his 2 ‘books’ which you can get if you contact him. He always wants to make a ‘sale’ he is a PR man after all.

  152. Hey Patrick, You are correct about one thing. I am very concerned and I do hope you will consider my advice. As much as you complain about speaking your views on this blog I do believe this is the only place you have felt safe to do so. I think what you have a problem with is the lack of agreement. That being said it is of course true that no one would hurt you and people have listened. Still it’s clearly difficult to tolerate a lack of agreement. No one else has left the retreat, I believe what you are remembering is the guy who informed us beforehand that he would need to drive back for work midweek and then he would be back. Of course it’s not a crime to leave . I was simply trying to point out that some of the reactions you receive are directly related to your behavior. In connection with that I ask again that you refrain from using Homophobic, Racist or Anti Semitic slurs and any and all name calling . I consider it the last resort of the ill informed. Lastly, no, I am not insulted. Why would I be? I suspect it’s true that what I am saying is word salad to you. I believe that completely. Also I have never claimed to be a historian and I assume you would not classify yourself as a historian either so what would insult me about that? It’s the truth. On the other hand it probably wouldn’t matter much if I was. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I can always it seems only deal with what you say a bit at a time. (You say so much!) But now I want to say the thing about leaving the retreat was not what you mentioned here though I do remember that but that’s different.

      What I am talking about is a guy and I remember his name actually but I suppose I should not say but to me he was a ‘funny’ guy and if I remember correctly EVERY SINGLE DAY there and it was the Summer one he would announce “I’m outta here” and he seemed real serious too. But every single day the next day he would be there but announcing how he’s outta here. It got to the point where I thought well that’s just his schtick but lo and behold Sat morning the last day where is he he’s not here he’s GONE.

      There was something about that was so funny like when he had us just thinking it was his schtick then all of a sudden it wasn’t he really meant it and WENT. That’s interesting you say I was the only one who left. I find that surprising in a way but I suppose if you think about it it is a bit ‘un-usual’. But then again I am a kind of ‘un-usual’ patient wouldn’t you say?

      It just occurs to me now with the above guy as an ‘example’ and how he talked so casually about leaving I did not think it would be that un-usual. Also I would even expect in an atmosphere of possibly high ‘psycho-drama’ it would be almost common. But that seems to be my different ‘understanding’ of what therapy is about to most people. To most people it seems weirdly (to me) kind of stately and predictable and did I mention boring.

      • Larry says:

        He left because he was afraid to confront and take responsibility for his life. I was at Barry’s last small group that he attended, just days before the retreat. I said to him in small group, trying to put myself in your place, if I was you at your young age, I would feel overwhelmed by the problems in my life and overwhelmed by how much it would seem to take to straighten it out and afraid for my future. He looked me in the eye and nodded yes that is how he feels. He left to go live with his Dad who was very wealthy.

        • Patrick says:

          Larry – we seem to be talking about a different person. The guy I am talking about was not young more like your and my age I even remember his name but I am never sure of the protocol around that. It starts with an A. might help you remember.

  153. Patrick, Oh yeah I know who you mean – he comes to most retreats and always says he’s “outa there” – he did not leave the retreat – we knew in advance his plane was leaving early the last day. Yeah name starts with A , around our age and from the South . He will be at next retreat I believe. I guess you did not realize what was going on and took that literally. G.

    • Larry says:

      Oh yeah! Now I know who you’re talking about. ‘A’ stuck it out, confronted his fears, and at subsequent retreats expressed how glad he was that he did and how grateful for the retreat process.

  154. As a P.S. There is a difference between drama and feeling. People often mistake the two. One tear can be more powerful than a big screaming drama. It really just depends. G.

  155. Margaret says:

    > yes, I remember feeling, and even telling that guy I found him the bravest person of all, because he dared to go into his fear and what Patrick would refer to as ‘weakness’, but what is vulnerability, despite his whole defense being thoroughly based on strong male toughness.
    > I was very touched by his other side, which he tended to jump back to occasionally, but I had the privilege to walk up with him to a meal while he was still in a deep feeling zone.
    > one must be so disconnected to use boring for a process that is often no less than fascinating and deeply moving.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – it was probably unnecessary of me to add that but to me at least it is important to just say how things strike me not how I might wish they would strike me or how I might want others to think how it affects me and just say how it actually DOES. To me at least that is the beginning of wisdom and my way of doing ‘primal’ seems to involve pretty much always getting outside the ‘primal matrix’ maybe this is just a personal issue but very likely it is true for most people. Social expectations can be a huge distortion and in blogs etc I think that is even more likely to happen. So good for you if you find it ‘deeply moving and fascinating’ but mostly I don’t. Whatever that ‘means’ nothing I suppose just being me. All this talk about being ‘so disconnected’ well to me that’s all it is…………talk. It might ‘sound’; good but really can we even be disconnected we are all connected whether we like it or not. I’m afraid Margaret most of that comes under the heading of ‘primal jargon’ better to speak plainly and in a way anyone can understand.

      • Quote:- “it was probably unnecessary of me to add that but to me at least it is important to just say how things strike me” In Primal therapy is is more IMPORTANT to say how you feel. What you think is “head tripping” … something you are ONLY able to do.

        For someone that by his own admission failed in therapy, to constantly mis-representing it ‘takes the biscuit’. You failed … stop blaming the therapy for your failure. You THINK, seemingly, that the therapy had to do it all for you. NO!!!!!

        Jack

  156. Margaret says:

    > my brother went to the nursing home with our mom this morning, just to have another look at the rooms, which turned out to be nice, and to have another talk with a social worker.
    > the former room has already been given away to a temporary revalidation case, but that person will probably stay as she is 95..
    > my brother spoke with our mom once more telling her she should not wait until she is really in a poor shape, as then it would be hard to connect and make friends there.
    > if she takes the next room she can still join in with all the daily activities, gym every morning and another activity every afternoon, and become part of things.
    > they promised us to let us know when there is an opportunity.
    >
    > but they said also they are going to renovel the rooms on the ground floor, make them still a bit bigger, so when that happens the people staying there would hae to go to the other floors, which makes the chances of free rooms smaller of course…
    >
    > we can’t do much more at this point.
    > my brother will go on a bike ride for several days, and brought her freshly cooked food, filled her fridge, gave her medication and prepared it for the next days, did her laundry, and put clean cloths at hand for her for the next days..
    > he is such a nice person, I hope he has a great time on his bicycle with his friends, riding up some of the mountains of the Tour de France..
    > feeling somewhat down, weather cold and grey, did the chores, studied, read a book and start to feel lonely and bored by now..
    > and sad I guess…
    > cats by my side though, one on the couch, one before the gas fire on the carpet, all stretched out enjoying the warmth.
    > they are adorable, one loves to play fight, with mostly soft paws, just a hint of some claws by mistake now and then, and it is very funny when occasionally one hides behind some furniture to jump up and hit my leg with a few fast hits and runs off, inviting me to play along.
    > they love to play goal keeper on the couch, catching every play mouse I throw even if it is a very fast throw.
    > they love that game, get all wired up and have to make a fast race around the living room from time to time before jumping back on the couch for more throws.
    > am already smiling again..
    > M

  157. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    Maybe your mother is getting used to the idea and will be ready for the next opening.
    Your cats sound like a lot of fun! I need something like that here at work to liven things up.
    All I have are some spiders. Not quite the same.
    Phil

  158. Margaret says:

    > aaargh! those are about the only animals that really freak me out!
    > irrational, I know, but they have always raised enormous panic in me, probably passed through by my mom reacting in the same way, so it became a real focus of my fear.
    > and they are not particularly nice or pretty, and even when you kill them what I rather not do, they become a messy squash after a dreadful cracking sound, and then all those legs pulled up, brrrrr…
    >
    > and they can be so fast, and if they are on you they cling like crazy, argh again!!!
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      There is a large black spider in my room here right now. I have my co-workers convinced that I strongly support bug rights and am against cruelty to insects. There is even a website I found to support this: http://insectrights.org/ And this is kind of true in that I don’t go around killing things.
      So when people here see a bug of any kind, they call me and I take care of it by moving it to a safe spot, such as my lab room.
      I do find ways to have some fun.
      Phil

      • Sylvia says:

        Well Phil, found your website of insects interesting and was going to ‘buy’ it until I read the part about them trying to save head lice from ugly children–poor kids, all are beautiful, huh. Larry is ‘into’ insects maybe he is part of that group?
        I only kill black widows and like the daddy long legs that spin webs to catch gnats.

        • Phil says:

          Sylvia,
          Here’s another website you might like, on luxury bug hotels designed by architects.
          Meant to attract and keep bugs happy: http://inhabitat.com/leading-architects-unveil-luxury-bug-hotels-in-london/beyond-the-hive-the-insect-hotel-2

          Phil

          • Sylvia says:

            Phil,
            Such interesting accommodations for the bugs. A lot of time and patience and concern for the little bugs. I bet the children visiting those parks really appreciate those honeycomb little buildings with the lively occupants. It speaks to the architect’s connection to their own childhood fascination with bugs, yes? I remember when a little neighborhood boy and I were about seven and catching butterflies in my backyard. I didn’t like that he pinned his collection in a frame. I was no better, I saved mine to throw in a pond to feed gold fish–poor thing.

            • This brings up a rather fascinating question:

              How many invisible micro-organisms do we squash and kill every day when we just walk around, sit down, lay down, eat, etc. during our daily routines? Do we kill millions or billions of them every day? I’m not sure.

              What about the rights of those poor creatures?

              • Phil says:

                Guru,
                I just had thousands or even millions of microorganisms for breakfast. Many of them
                will now live happily in my gut. I’m sure my skin is covered with them too. They are us.
                Phil

  159. Margaret says:

    > Phil, haha, well, you better don’t move flies into the room, that would be great for the spider of course, but not for them.. I seem to remember flies are insects, spiders are not, isn’t it?
    > Larry should know for sure.
    > I always used to catch wasps in a freindly way by putting a glass over them when they sit on the window, and then a paper between it and the window to cover up the glass, and then take them outdoors.
    > now that has become more difficult of course, when in the summer something comes buzzing in I always hope it is a big fly as all my cats loved so far to catch anything that moves, and it would be dangerous if they got stung..
    > it is funny when I put a mosquito device in spreading anti mosquito vapors,, for fifteen minutes or so right before going to bed, to see the cats jumping around leaping high up to catch the dopey mosquitos that come spiraling down.
    > that would be if it gets a bit warmer again, it seems too cold now for mosquitos..
    > in Spain we once had a giant beetle that arrived on our terrace one day, it came buzzing by with a loud noise, and landed, and it was funny, when my husband bent over to have a closer look at it, it suddenly lifted itself up on its hind legs and gave a loud groaning hiss, and my husband took a jump backwards which really cracked me up, this big man being frightened by this brave beetle..
    >
    > also there we once saw a mating pair of these huge bright green …, they resemble giant crickets, but are predators, and while the male was well, ‘fertilizing’ the female, she just turned her big head around, and started eating him bit by bit, while he still went on for a while, losing feet and wings and finally his head and the rest..
    > it was both fascinating and gruesome, we had all just smoked some pot and sat around it watching nature take its course on the sandy curb before the one freaky bar the villlage had on satrudays..
    > well, sorry, have been too silent today, and am happy..
    > M

    • Larry says:

      I was surprised to see your insect discussion thread, Margaret, Sylvia, and Phil. It’s rare that I see insects as a topic in every day social conversation. Just to confirm, insects have 6 legs and belong to Class Insecta, while spiders are of the Class Arachnida, all of which have 8 legs. I looked it up in Wikipedia just to be sure I had the phylogeny and spelling correct.

      From last Friday to Monday I put 2300 km on my car in a short, quick visit to family and friends in Manitoba. It recharges me to visit them and makes me contemplate whether I should move there in my retirement. While there, I visited a wildflower nursery and bought some native flowers grown from seed, for a flower garden that would include milkweed, to host Monarch butterflies. On a side note, during my travels a lot of airborne insects got mashed up against my car grill and windshield. As they flit and fly through the air they don’t have a chance against a vehicle racing toward them at 110 km per hour.

      I was on the road again this past Tuesday to today, for 1000 km with three work colleagues to seed research field plots at distant sites to study an outbreak of an insect pest of some of Canada’s important food crops. Yesterday we worked from 7 am to 9 pm. I don’t know much about the pest or insects in general, except what I passively absorb from work. In general, I prefer to live and let live, but when it comes to insects trying to suck my blood or eat my food or my shelter, I can understand how the planet sometimes just isn’t big enough for both us (people) and them. On a similar side note, our work truck grille and windshield got a thick splatter of smashed airborne insects that I’ll have to wash off next week when I go to work.

      Every day I check the blog, even when I’m away from home, to see what everyone is writing here. Other people have friends or spouses that they stay in touch with through the day, mostly by phone or text. It hit me the other day that all I have who I stay in touch with daily is you and this blog. I’m touched by your stories and feel less alone as I explore what caused my life to go awry, and I get an ever deeper appreciation for how injustices against children affect us all the rest of our lives, unless we get some relief through Primal Therapy. Sometimes I’m surprised how much I rely on this blog and all of you on it to be here, how more empty my life would be without you. I’m impressed by how you confront horrendous childhood experiences in your quest to heal. I wish I had commented at the time to some of your various writing that I had a strong, supportive, concerned reaction to. I generally was too tired or didn’t have the time.

      Margaret, late last evening, exhausted after a very long work day and resting in my motel room by getting caught up reading the blog, I was suddenly and more than ever before troubled and kind of shaken by the plight of your life, by the disability that cheats you of the quality and sense of control you once had of your life, by the inevitable loss you must deal with one day of your mother, by the pets who live with you and bring you comfort but you have no life partner. My burst of deeper empathy for your life situation as I perceive it leads me to also suspect something about your life suddenly is triggering something in me about mine.

      • Phil says:

        Larry,
        It bugs me, and it’s shocking how you can so easily talk about driving at reckless high speeds killing large numbers of small innocent creatures.
        Phil

        • Larry says:

          It’s hard for me to know whether your have a mischievous sense of humour or you seriously mean what you wrote in your comment, Phil. 110 kilometers per hour is about 68 miles per hour, and is the standard speed limit on good divided highways here. I’m sure people drive much faster than that on freeways in the US and Europe.

          As for all the harm out there that befalls innocent creatures and people every minute of every day, I’d be soon overwhelmed if I let my empathy for them always come to the forefront of my consciousness.

          In the past I’ve sometimes had to be involved in an insect survey that required me to set out or check sticky traps that were changed weekly. In recent years it bothered me quite a bit to approach a trap and sometimes notice an insect still alive but stuck in the trap goo and valiantly but hopelessly struggling to escape to save it’s life. Since I had only two choices, one being to ignore it and let it suffer and struggle until it finally perished in the goo, instead I instantly snuffed out it’s life to bring a quick painless end to its awful suffering. I never heard of anyone else ever being touched by the suffering of the insects caught in the traps and there was a time much earlier in my life when I wouldn’t have given them a thought.

          No doubt about it, insects that smear against the front of a vehicle travelling at highway speeds die instantly, unaware even of what happened. It is probably a more merciful end than what befalls the millions of insects eaten every day by spiders, fish, reptiles, and small mammals.

          Your response is interesting, Phil.

          • Phil says:

            Larry,
            Just a little joke….you drive within the speed limit and I guess there are no laws written on this. Maybe a bumper sticker saying “I slow down and stop for bugs” would be in order.
            My area gets a large number of road killed animals; deer, squirrels, possums, etc, it is very sad to see. I can only imagine all the dead road kill insects Instant Karma?
            Phil

            • Larry says:

              Ha ha. This vehicle makes frequent stops for bugs.

              • Larry: Good to know you make frequent stops for bugs as well as studying them. Me Well!!!! I’m not a bug lover (except for bees), and my my computer hates them and does it best to kill them. There are some huge human size bugs and I’m not sure they deserve respect, and one of them is hoping to get into the White House. He freaks the wits outta me and I have nightmares about his starting to throw nukes around indiscriminately, and it all ending up with the destruction of the planet. I hope the majority of Americans are equally as freaked about him as I am … but now I wonder at the overall sanity of the majority of this nation

                Meantime, to all you other buggers I just hope it doesn’t bug me any further, 🙂 🙂 .

                Jack

                • Larry says:

                  If he gets in, I hope after his first week in office he’s impeached.

                  • I remember buying a paperback copy of Trump’s The Art of the Deal back when it came out in the 80’s when I was still an impressionable youngster. It was actually a fairly captivating read for me in school, yet it wasn’t immediately useful for me.

                    I might still have it deep in storage somewhere.

                  • Larry: I thought of that also in my fantasizing … BUT I don’t see the Republicans EVER allowing that to one of their own. They couldn’t even bring Nixon to impeachment.

                    Jack

      • Sylvia says:

        Larry, and isn’t it nice to come to a place and complain a bit. Where else can we come to to be met with some understanding of how our past has affected our now. When some people hear somebody complain about the past they say: forget about the past or suck it up and go on. They simply don’t want to hear about it. We know better. It’s good to have caring friends here. I agree Larry, nice to have a place that listens.

        Oh Phil, I’m having flashbacks of our old Studebaker’s radiator covered with dead moths and butterflies travelling through Arizona one summer as a kid. My next primal…anguish over insects…yikes! when will it end.
        S

      • Anonymous says:

        yeah…..connection with ….another…………being

        • Sylvia says:

          So right, connection with someone. (And I’ve heard of Temple Grandin, she knew how sensitive and scared cattle were because she was that way also and could relate.)

  160. Margaret says:

    Margaret,
    I think that insects and spiders are classified as separate groups, but with “bugs”, I’ve got them all covered. This all started because our old office was leaky and at ground level near a wooded area. All kinds of bugs would come in, centipedes, spiders, daddy long legs, you name it, and I would get called to save the situation. Coworkers almost all women who don’t appreciate bugs
    like you do.
    Phil

    • Phil says:

      Sorry for the mix up, the last post was mine.
      Margaret,
      I think that insects and spiders are classified as separate groups, but with “bugs”, I’ve got them all covered. This all started because our old office was leaky and at ground level near a wooded area. All kinds of bugs would come in, centipedes, spiders, daddy long legs, you name it, and I would get called to save the situation. Coworkers almost all women who don’t appreciate bugs
      like you do.
      Phil

  161. Renee S. says:

    Hi Patrick,
    I saw your post and I do read the blog sometimes. I feel a little uncomfortable with you reaching out to me because I do not see how I can be helpful to or supportive of you. When I read you postings, I have so many of my own projections that I doubt I can actually see you clearly or really understand you. Many of your postings are painful for me to read because I see so much of myself in them. I sense your tendency toward lashing out, isolation and stuckness, and I am reminded of these qualities in myself and how much I hate them. I sense that when you respond to others in a group, either at a retreat or on the blog, you are back in your family or some other group and back in your familiar role of antagonist, outsider and sometimes scapegoat. These roles are all too familiar (and very lonely) to me and also sometimes feel impossible get out of. And your prejudices and biases…….well, I judge you harshly for them because they are so sick and hurtful. Yet, I know when I do that part of me is being hypocritical because it is easier for me look down on you for these beliefs than to recognize my own prejudices (which I think more subtle than yours and connected to white privilege). Perhaps you want to connect to me so that you do not feel so alone. I can do that one on one with you, like I remember doing at a retreat once. But in a group setting, the way you present yourself is just too triggering for me.
    Renee
    P.S. If you are interested in Wilhelm Reich, check out this link:
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wilhelm-reich-documentary-film-project-edit-phase–7/#/
    It is a preview of an upcoming documentary of his life, as well a fundraiser to finish making the movie.

    • Larry says:

      I thought that was an insightful, honest, helpful, sensitive reply Rene, that Patrick could learn from if he was able.

  162. That was certainly kind.

  163. Your right Otto ! Gretch

  164. Margaret, nice cats!

  165. In mil school, we had barracks, not a dormitory, like you might have at a boarding school. The blankets, i think, were wool, scratchy. we shined shoes and belt buckles, the smells of which i will never forget. i was not really thinking about this, just read an older post of yours, Jo. I don’t think i had any thoughts about Why..am i here? I think i had somewhat of a dog brain, and pretty much accepted being thrown into a pile of shit every few years. I did like the music that was played sometimes when we marched, and Glee Club. Did that place warp me almost to the point of extinction? yes it surely did, and in only one year’s time. wahhh. not feeling anything just wanted to open my big mouth. going to watch #1 kid give a final presentation to other students at ucla tomorrow, then his birthday friday, then he goes to ohio in august, wont see him much after that. kind of reminds me when i was ready to board the plane to Spain when i was in the Navy, my kiind uncle teared up as we said goodbye, then he died while i was over in Spain. went to #2 kid’s house sunday to see his family. baby and toddler, delightful, but i cant engage the little boy much at all. maybe i look too much like his father. maybe the dead look on my ugly face does not set well with him. he is happy and his mom is good to him well we dont see them that much and i dont like being around people, especially kids. maybe i already posted something about this, cant remember, looked at too many numbers the past few days, so brain is soggy. i put his new ball into his outstretched arms, because he was too young to catch it yet. now THERE are some old feelings triggered. 1/4 tear. He just starting out, so full of life, me with 2 feet in the grave. My constant feeling for so long a time now. When i am not thinking about all the pets i have had to take to the vet and have them put to sleep over my long life as a pet owner. joy. not. not for a long long long time.

  166. I can’t speak for Otto but I don’t think he meant Renee was kind for speaking to you … nor did I . Clearly you are a bit mixed up as neither of us said that. I think you are confused as well by my comment that you are proof there was a Holocaust. That’s okay, maybe the meaning will be clear to you another time. Gretchen

  167. swisslady says:

    After I wrote about my sexual abuse last week (or as I worded it to Gretchen: “exposed myself”) I felt very vulnerable and with every passing day, felt increasingly scared. I was going to write about it more, but couldn’t find the right words, didn’t find the way back into the conversation on the blog, was afraid to comment on anything that was said for fear of not finding the right words, for fear of offending anyone, causing anybody to retaliate or punish me. It didn’t occur to me until this very minute that all these were additional feelings surrounding the incident: “not finding the right words” to talk about it after it happened. Being afraid of retaliation or punishment (the perpetrator must have threatened me – I don’t remember). In a bigger sense, I didn’t find my way back into the family, or into my life after the abuse. As I am writing this, my heart is pounding, I know I am on the right track, but I am terrified. Of what? To find out who it was that abused me? Of punishment? Retaliation? My pain? In any case, I am speaking out now. And I will keep on speaking out. About my abuse and about anything that I need to say. I will not let myself be bullied into being quiet. Even if the “being bullied” is only a feeling.

    I want to thank you, Jo and David, for your comments and words of encouragement and support. It is very much appreciated! I can fully relate to your feeling of betrayal when you were left at the hospital, Jo, nobody visiting you! It is a horrendous betrayal. I would think that any mother in her right sense would have stayed with her very young child! And David, that silhouette in the open doorway at night sounds so terrifying! I believe that you will start to remember if you keep feeling the feelings. Although, I’m not even sure, if we absolutely have to remember the details. It might be enough just to feel the general feelings in order to heal. I’m not sure.
    –Bernadette

    • Phil says:

      Bernadette,
      I hear you and I’m glad you are speaking out.
      Phil

    • David says:

      Hi Bernadette, I’ve really appreciated what you’ve been writing here about this very serious issue of sexual abuse. Your initial blog post about it was one of the main spurs for me writing about my own experiences here, having made the connection only in the last few months about having had a similar trauma. So far I’ve only talked about it with my therapist and a couple of primal friends and have wanted to “speak out” more, like you say. I feel you have been the real courageous pioneer in writing about this horrible experience on the blog, at least from what I’ve read here.

      When you seemed to go quiet after your last post, I started to feel that you may have been frustrated or disappointed in the response, or my response in particular. My projection and my feeling, I know. You were talking from a horrific level of detail, and I didn’t have anything similar I could draw from to relate and was not sure what else to say, which frustrated me. So it’s good to know that you appreciated my comment, and Jo’s also.

      “I’m not even sure, if we absolutely have to remember the details. It might be enough just to feel the general feelings in order to heal.”

      I believe you are right. This has been my experience so far. I believe I need to reduce the level of pain until the detail of what happened can come into view. I’m sure it is too much to “know”, as in remembering, all at once. As a postscript, or addendum, to what I wrote about the picture book triggering fear in me as a child, the adult’s silhouette in the child’s room at night. A few weeks ago it was a glorious sunny day and I had my living room door open and had been in the back yard. As I came inside, I paused in the door way, the sun pouring in from behind me. I looked down at my wooden, living room floor and saw stretched out before me the shadow of the doorway and my own shadow within it. I gasped and started to cry. But they were tears of joy. There was something about that, about seeing this, that I can’t quite put my finger on, as what I saw resonated back to what I had seen and felt on seeing that image in the picture book as a child. That I am reclaiming myself back from the abuse that happened to me, that I am healing?! Maybe that says it well enough.

      Thanks again for sharing. I for one am listening!

  168. Wakeup dream of being afraid. afraid to sit with people in an eating place probably like the retreat while all the other people are having fun with each other. i looked at their table and it seemed full so i went to the furthest table away and sat by myself, clinging to a towel that was barely covering me. one of those naked dreams. i had managed to obtain a biscuit and mashed potatoes and gravy on my plate from a somewhat undesirable buffet. The manager of the eatery had told me and the guy i came in with that he didn’t recall what the rules were for the buffet (which i realize as i write this, is not the rules for getting the food, or maybe it is, but also the rules for socializing). And the girl was leaning over me as i was getting my gravy so she could talk to the guy i came in with. a dream about military school probably, they had wierd rules about eating, and my need to be away from people always gets triggered very easily in cafeteria settings. going to work. too too afraid and alone.

  169. Margaret says:

    > Guru, nice to hear from you again.
    > Bernadette,
    > I am very glad you wrote again.
    > all the time the blog was sidetracking once more of what was going on before, I was thinking of you and hoping you would continue writing.
    > it sounds so scary how it must have been for you.
    > I wondered at one point reading what you just posted, if you might also have been afraid to be blamed, accused of whatever?
    > that must all have been so terrifying and devastating.
    > of course I can only start to imagine how maybe it must have been but taht already feels awful.
    > so good to hear you can connect the present feelings as well.
    > you are inspiring.
    >
    > Otto,
    > you can be sure you are not the only one feeling like that at group meals.
    > I am slowly geting a bit better at them occasionally, but they can also still be an ordeal as well.
    > and feeling scared it will show how scared and unhappy I am sounds so familiar, spying on everyone that seems to be able and normal and having a good time..
    > occasionally though, when there is not too much noise, like outdoors with a small group of people it can be really pleasant as well.
    >
    > one thing I noticed over the years at the retreat, if you sit at a table with vegetarians and fish eaters, not one wasp around, sit with meat eaters and it is full of them.
    > not that terrible as long as noone starts swaying hands at them and upsets them.
    > but then there is always someone doing that and then trouble starts.
    >
    > well, just an aside observation, smiley, all that talk about bugs must have triggered me..
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – who are you to decide if the blog is ‘side tracked’ or not usually that’s a prelude to more ‘banning’ talk. If only everything could be sweet and hunky dory and we all sit around ‘supporting’ each other how wonderful that would be.

    • Hi Margaret. I scoop up half the insects I find in my house into a jar and take them outside. The other half, well….

  170. Patrick says:

    Guru – it is nice to see you back or are around. And no I am not asking you to ‘reach out to me’ or God forbid ‘support’ me just saying it is nice to see you are ok, you are ok right? No need to answer if you don’t want to. I notice you changed your ‘gravatar’ I looked at it for a while. What does it mean if anything? seems somehow ‘alienated’ like in a dream almost, everything is very ‘boxy’ lots of straight lines, the pattern on the floor that kind of modern look also alienated, like living in a box and the floor is cut into boxy patterns. Maybe it ‘means’ nothing whatever you got rid of the one with all the currency signs maybe you are taking Philosopher Man’s – he who berates people for being ‘in their heads’ but he poses as a ‘philosopher’ oh well maybe ONLY him (and Janov) have any ‘;right to be in ‘his head’ a sort of order of the British empire that ‘allows’ him that all other ruffians especially Irish or maybe Arabs need not apply……………….anyway got carried away there I was thinking maybe you are taking his advice and ‘abolishing money’

    • Patrick:
      I used to think there was some merit to the idea of abolishing money, but I’ve become more and more convinced a Universal Basic Income at a very low level would be a more realistic goal. Something very small such as $3,000-$5,000 per year guaranteed for each and every adult regardless of who you are or what you do. This way even if someone totally gives up on civilization and wants to live by a campfire deep in the Primal woods forever like the Unabomber or the Brawny Man one could still secure basic provisions.

      The avatar is meaningless for purposes of this blog. I grew tired of the old avatar and the new one is simply an office of a company I have found useful to work with. It’s a snazzy little office unit in downtown Tampa, Florida down the street from the Fifth Third Bank building.

      I saw nothing wrong with Renee reaching out to you or trying to support you. Would you rather she kick you in the balls? Would that instill a sense of adrenaline and excitement?

      • Quote: “I used to think there was some merit to the idea of abolishing money, but I’ve become more and more convinced a Universal Basic Income at a very low level would be a more realistic goal.”

        Guru: interesting that you once saw some merit in abolishing money. Money is the ‘linchpin’, OR ‘the glue’ that holds this system together … including police, prisons, militaries, greed, neurosis, and lastly the inability to create a world of peace.

        Your suggestion merely keeps that whole ‘shebang’ in place … to the extent that within a short space of time we would be back to exactly what we have now. Karl Marx recognized that most revolution merely “shift the deck chairs on the Titanic” He sited the French revolution as a case in point. They removed a monarch and replaced it with an Emperor.

        However, Marx actually laid the foundation for a similar replacement. If money and all forms of exchange including barter were to be dismantled, then everything would fall into place. This is a hard concept for most to grasp. But as with water, whenever it lays to rest … then finds it’s own level. All else is tweaking the system that would eventually return to the ‘status quo’.

        Many talk of revolution, but few are able to REALLY visualize it. My own point is to suggest the end of neurosis. Nothing more.

        Jack

      • Patrick:

        I wasn’t condemning you at all from my own standpoint. I was joking about the ball kicking. hahaha, right? Ball busting humor? I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with your disagreeing with Renee in that you would need emotional support of any kind. If you feel as if you are an emotionally resilient person, then by all means discuss it further with Renee and maybe you can convince her and/or others they are wrong in their assessments.

        I have my share of disagreements with Gretchen and others on the blog, too, by the way. I’ve only seen Renee in person on a few occasions at retreats long ago so I don’t know her very well.

        When I said I saw nothing wrong in what Renee said, I was meaning to convey that there is nothing wrong with Renee exerting the right to do what she felt like she needed to do in communication with you.

        • Patrick says:

          That’s fine Guru. I saw nothing ‘wrong’ with what Renee said either and I do appreciate she actually sent me the information I was looking for. It just seemed a bit………………………over psychoanalyizing but hey there are worse things in the world……………..(I suppose lol)……………………

      • Quote:- “I thought this a fine example of bogus psychoanalyzing and about as wrong headed as can be”.

        You stirke me as being so clumsy in your analysis of Velikovsky. Yes!!! that’s exactly what you are doing and YET debunking analysis. We ALL of us are analyzing many things most of the time. Should I do this or do that? Do I like this, or that?

        I’ll put my two cents in here about this Arabs and the notion there is a high rate of latent homosexuality … with their women: being so cloistered and covered. The very same applies to men incarcerated and also, from my own experience in the military (during my conscripted national service). The separation of the sexes for any considerable amount of time, will automatically cause men (not sure if the same would apply to women) to take the next best thing. At least it’s a warm human body.

        I would advocate that the sexes should never be separated. The bathrooms saga being a non issue, except to those that are so, so repressed, especially about sexuality. In my childhood home we never closed the bathroom door and we four kids, two boy and two girls, were all put in the bathtub together, and slept in the same room, and me seeing my mother breast feeding my younger siblings. It seemed so normal to me then.

        Jack

  171. Phil says:

    I already got called today to rescue someone from a bug. It was tiny, like the head of a pin.
    I tried to scoop it up but it fell behind some furniture, so the mission was a failure.
    Better luck next time.
    Phil

  172. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > that reminds me of how my dad often used to miss the spiders who then fell to the floor, and hid and still lurked somewhere, which made me want to sleep in another room.
    > he tried to hit them with his slippers but well, maybe he was merely sleepy as I specially remember one occasion, when I actually woke up hearing taptaptaptaptaptaptaptap on the wall, eight tiny feet resonating on the hardboard cover of my attic room, which made me turn on the light with pounding heart, and Yes, aaaaargh!!!! a giant spider on the wall near my bed, so big I had actually heard it tapdancing around in the dark full of evil plans to possibly jump on my face or something…
    > I screamed so loud the help troops came running and grumbling up the steep stairs in rescue, but with a bit of an unsatisfying result.
    > I seem to remember I slept on the couch or in my parents bed that night..
    >
    > once too, when I was still younger, I went to pee in the toilet bucket which was the night solution in our very old house, (1778 !) and when I got up from peeing, luckily not during, I felt a tickle on my arm and saw this other eightlegged black shiny monster sitting on my upper arm!!!
    > could not even scream as it was too close to my mouth, but managed to slam it off, and of course it landed in my bed..
    > shhook my brother awake in the bed next to mine, made him get up and change beds, did not say why, and slept the rest of the night in his… mmm, not so nice, is it? or well, he was still half asleep and he did not really need to wake up completely did he? just change beds, which he did to keep things as brief as possible, nice brother isn’t he?
    > no trace of the spider in the morning.
    >
    > Guru, well, well done for the occupants of the jar, the rest, well, being squashed is a fast way to go I guess,not pleasant, but not many ways to go are..
    > better than to be sucked into a vacuum cleaner and then struggle for ages in the dust, awful thought.
    > I used to throw over the jam jars with sugar water in them, and a hole in the lid, with loads of wasps in them drowning, felt so bad for them in the end, had to throw them over when I looked at them in our garden where they were sometimes put in the summer.
    >
    > also these sticky fly catchers are awful,I can’t help but to put myself in the place of those poor animals when I see things like that.
    > not that I ever minded to squash a mosquito on the wall, specially not after they kept me awake buzzing around my ears trying to find a good landing spot..
    >
    > Sylvia, I also used to catch butterflies, slowly approaching them when they were on a flower, and then cautiously picking them up when they closed their wings, and let them fly away again after a close look..
    > they lost a few of their shiny scabs but seemed ok otherwise..
    > hated to have a great time outdoors and then suddenly spot spider webs I almost ran into, with thick repulsive fat spiders in the middle, waiting to cling on me if I would have missed them, that kind of thing spoiled the joyful feeling of freedom for a little while at least…
    > and they always used to danle in front of the biggest raspberries etc….
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      Butterflies are fascinating and beautiful.
      As a kid I used to go frog hunting. I would go on my bike around town with a bucket
      and small net. They could be quite challenging to catch. I brought them home
      to live in a very small homemade pond I created in our back yard. They wouldn’t stay there without a fence. I fed them worms. I also caught tadpoles and liked to watch them grow into frogs. I don’t know why I wanted them in the backyard; maybe to have a part of nature which was missing there?
      Phil

  173. Margaret says:

    > hi Renee,
    > I liked the comment you wrote.
    > sorry to hear how isolated you could feel at retreats.
    > do you plan to come over again?
    > how is your life these days?
    > are you still in that job you liked?
    > Margaret

  174. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > oh yes, tadpoles, did not know the name but know what you mean.
    > we used to go search for the jelly substance with my mom mainly, if I recall, in little water ponds or creeks nearby, and then put them in a big glass jar or an aquarium to watch the process of them coming out of the eggs, swimming around with their black heads and swift tails, and then slowly developing hind legs etc.
    > then they were put back out in nature.. if I remember well..
    > and there were this brown beetles that appear in may in beak or beek hedges, it was always kind of a competition to find the first one in spring.
    > but like most bugs they had these clingy feet with little hooks on them which I did not mind at first, but in the end I did not really like the feeling on the palms of my hands. creepy smiley…
    >
    > I really pity kids growing up in cities and missing out on the thrill of climbing trees and digging deep holes and building secret camps etc.
    > did that frog really eat the worms? I always thought they ate flies but well, maybe a juicy bit of wurm is kind of a treat as well if you are a frog.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, The frogs would sit very still with the worm wiggling next to them, and then very quickly move and catch them. It was fun watching them do that.
      We moved out of the city because of a strong feeling I had for my sons to have the kind of childhood I had, living near nature. They did enjoy it.
      Our backyard was large enough for a lot of soccer games and all kinds of things. My youngest son went camping with his friends last weekend. When they were younger I took a whole group of boys camping every summer. We have some very nice areas around here. I couldn’t imagine them growing up in a large city.
      Moving away from New York City like that has had a big negative effect on my career.
      I might have thought more carefully on where to move, but in general, have no regrets about that.
      Phil

  175. Margaret says:

    > that’s very nice to hear, Phil

  176. Daniel says:

    Thanks Jack and Barry for the interesting post about “cure” . As the double quotes suggest this isn’t a straight-forward issue and I’d like to add to the discussion by stressing some points which highlight some of Janov’s insights and also point at some of the difficulties.

    Janov starts with an implied question: How is it that by means of speech we will change something in the structure of the patient, whereas what we change doesn’t belong to the field of speech? How can we use language when the thing we’re after is the thing itself, the fundamental reality with which psychology and psychotherapy have to deal?

    The ways of practicing psychotherapy are a set of practical, ‘facilitating’ measures. For Janov these were simple measures, in language or touch, that facilitated in the patient the expression of feelings, but he didn’t really develop a theory of what these measures refer to. What is the meaning of these facilitating measures and how and why they operate? And, most importantly, what do they say about the place these facilitations come from? On the contrary, Janov’s genius seemed to lie in seemingly finding a way to initiate a process of symbolization, of making feeling and thinking sense of sensations, without the direct use of other people’s minds, without an environment. All one needed was to get into a Primal and from there things will take care of themselves.

    Or will they?

    I think that In Janov’s scheme of things a Primal itself isn’t just a process that releases energies dammed up within the body-mind system, but also a highly sophisticated care-taking system, the holding arms as it were of a mother of father equipped with an adult mind brought on the matter at hand to elevate or evolve or transform or metabolize sense impressions from a first-line status to a second and third, thus making them truly available for personal use.

    As far as I know Janov didn’t go into this aspect of the Primal as a care-taking system and it isn’t always clear how exactly within the confines of a single person sense-impressions (i.e. the sensations of being crushed) are becoming feelings and thinking and language (i.e. “mommy, please save me”).

    This is a difficult problem, one that in my mind goes to the heart of Primal therapy and theory and is embodied in the problem of abreaction. It is also present in the discussion about fear and anxiety that this post ignited, because there is a difference between fears and nightmares on the one hand and terror and night terrors on the other.

    There’s much to say about this but this comment is already too long. So, I’ll just end it with a question: If we’re after the thing itself, the essential reality, is the wish to be cured, the desire, helps us to get there or on the contrary – prevents us from getting there?

    • Reification of the sense-impressions you refer to is a tricky business, Daniel.
      I discovered a fair number of terrible feelings I regularly experienced actually had little or nothing to do with a mommy or daddy at all. This is not to imply the Primal therapy approach is invalid nor am I implying there are no mommy/daddy issues, but rather that many of the resolutions and answers I found were not what I originally expected when I first started reading Janov’s explicit suppositions of what a cure may entail.

      • Daniel says:

        Guru, it is a tricky business indeed. And I agree that not all terrible feelings stem from mommy/daddy (although I think they do remain our prototype for experiencing things).

    • Phil says:

      Daniel, About your question, the way I see it, the desire to be get better needsto exist, for therapy progress. We can observe people who are neurotic andyet have no wish for therapy, for example. Maybe what you are talking about is trying too hardto go with feelings or have them come out, and I can see where that canbe an issue. I’m sure that I have done that, and still do that at times. I have a historywith obvious traumatic events and yet it still took years and years to make muchheadway with that. For many years I had given up on formal therapy andbuddying, but I believe I was still gradually making progress during that time anyway. What happened is that the New York Institute closed and I drifted away from primal.It could be that this was a good thing for me, as I spent my energies concentratingon my life instead of therapy. I believe the key part is to get the process started.I guess it can only go so fast and current life events havea lot to do with it as well. Phil Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 21:46:41 +0000 To: phiban@msn.com

      • Phil says:

        Daniel, thanks for a provocative posting. Interesting what you say about a “highly sophisticated care taking system” in regards to how 1st line feelings are expressed on the 2nd and 3rd line.
        I have to remember not to post here by email because wordpress jams many of my words together even though I don’t type them that way. It did that to my last message.
        Phil

      • Daniel says:

        Phil, I agree that we need some motivation for therapy. Usually it’s our suffering. But I also think there’s a paradox in wanting the “cure”, because that also means we cannot face ourselves as we are now and so may become another expression of our disgust with ourselves and running away from ourselves.

        Funny about NY. I actually walked to the address there only to find there was nothing there (it was already closed). Some years later I came to LA.

    • Daniel: You’ve obviously given a great deal of though to the matter in hand, BUT I feel you need to do some clarification to some of your notions that Janov was not totally clear. I on the other hand feel he made it TOTALLY clear from the very beginning. Primal Theory is so well defined in that first book and for me needs no revising. Simply put, he made a huge discovery. The discovery as I read it, is that there is quite a whole other areas to our ‘being’ that got thwarted in childhood by preventing the natural, normal and simple EXPRESSION of the feelings.

      The feeling don’t go away but unless they are expressed are left reverberate in our bodies until such times as we either FINALLY express then with a process of re=living (not remembering). If not then they will play havoc on the cells of the body until they finally resolve into the diseases that then kills us.

      Even though we may re-live them they then are elevated to the conscious mind, and are then real memories, which we will be reminded of from time to time. In the same manner that all other memories pop up about out past … our histories. The process is so simple in concept … However, due to the horrendous ‘pain’ in bringing them back into consciousness we are reluctant to “just let it happen” I don’t blame anyone for not willingly ‘let it happen’, and more often than not take time.

      Talking and discussing a memory in a session or group, is merely a means to eliciting the potentioal to fall into what Janov coined as a “primal” … that is nothing more than an old, old feeling. Daniel; I am not sure you see it the same way as I do. If so forgive my re-itteration. If not then I am prepared to discuss it further with you on this blog.

      Jack

  177. I will say that I have felt better after talking in a session with BB. I am not sure where that fits into primal theory, just throwing it out there. Actually, maybe talking in that session elicited one of those tears that are more profound than a 1000 loud screams, or whatever you said above, GB.

  178. Gretchen, you are kind to me always, and that means everything to me. You act like you have known me intimately for years, even though I have drifted in and out of PT for those many years, not to mention my general aloofness when I have been there.

  179. Margaret, funny how i had completely forgotten about my fear of black widow spiders when i was between the age of 5 and 10, living in Hollywood with my grandmother. My brother was quite a boisterous person, and we shared a bedroom together, and we would be loud and keep my poor grandma awake at night, and she had to get up early to go to work. So I guess the fix was to put me in the little back bedroom by myself where she had been sleeping. This bedroom was above a little disheveled half-cellar that my brother and i would go into sometimes, and he would always delight in scaring me about the black widow spiders that he said were living there. So night after night, i would cover myself tightly in my blanket, with only a small opening to breathe. It was hot and i was extremely frightened until i fell asleep. I remember something about the wind that sometimes came up at night too, that made things scary. Maybe this is one of the many things my big brother did that has made me unwilling to talk to him at all, although when we are together once every year or so, we seem to have somewhat of a good time. I think my brother’s boisterousness led my grandmother to move us all away from Hollywood, where I had finally gotten my groove back after many years of nothingness. My brother abandoned me again and again in my life. Not like the big brother taking care of his little brother in the movies. Oh well, he probably blames my existence for the deaths of my father and mother. Or at least puts my birth into a pavlovian when-this-happened (my birth), then-this-happened (mom and pop died). I am trying to say, that as a toddler, he saw these things all happen in the same time period, and maybe with the sibling rivalry thing, he just would naturally not have a good feeling about me.Well probably not the only reason he was mean or standoffish to me at times. Ahh, just some half-chewed on thoughts. My grandma says my dad was mean to my mom (I never knew my dad, because he died months before i was born), but his mean influence could worn off on my brother. I got to stop. cant word any of this clearly and dont care. Insane incident at restaurant tonight, which really makes me doubt my wife’s sanity, or her progression into Alzheimers.

  180. Otto, Thanks so much! What a nice thing to say. I have noticed that you ,at times, can be aloof but I decided we shouldn’t let it get in our way! 🙂 Gretch

  181. Hey Guru, Nice to have you back on the blog! G.

  182. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > I have not finished reading all the comments but want to put down some thoughts before they get diffused.
    > your question made me think about the whole process, of what happens when the damage starts occurring and why, and what it is that drives us to either suppress or process unresolved emotions and also want to ‘get better’.
    >
    > it occurred to me it might be similar forces.
    > maybe there is a basic need to incorporate all life’s experience from the moment of our first awareness on, trying to set up a large scheme of a world in which we have fair chances to survive.
    > no creature would want to live in a continuous nightmare so to say, we need to have a feeling of relative safety and control and hope for good things ahead in order to keep making the effort of living.
    >
    > now if very painful and ongoing things happen,that gets too difficult to incorporate in our ‘scheme’ so the only left option might be to suppress that experience, put it on hold so to say to possibly be later incorporated with more information or better resources to deal with it.
    > maybe some neural pathways are in some way short circuited to use a bad comparison, causing continuous stressful buzzing wanting to be dealt with?
    >
    > wanting to get ‘better’ might be another form of this general desire to keep or gain emotional control over our world and our perceived place in it.
    > you ask interesting questions, this is kind of a fresh way for me to look at things.
    > Margaret

  183. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > upon rereading your comment the words about the first line feelings being allowed to be processed by the presence of a more adult awareness, of one’s own or somebody else’s, touched me somehow on a deeper level.
    >
    > it made me reflect more, about the ways of getting into feelings, sometimes words being of help, sometimes other triggers, it seems what is important is for on the one hand the right context to be reactivated, not necessarily in detail but opening some kind of access to the area of the origins of the feeling, and on the other hand the conscious will to lower one’s usual defense system, to allow letting go of some control, to become vulnerable, and this might be why the pressence of a trusted therapist can be so crucial in the first stages of therapy, and often later as well, to provide the feeling of safety that lacked in the first place when the feeling process had to be cut off.
    > come to htink of it, there might be an initial general pathway leading to the feeling zone, which gets more and more accessible during therapy, splitting up so to say to the various painful memories and experiences.
    > once we are on it, several triggers can more easily get us onto one of the other tracks.
    > I am thinking of a group in which someone just ranting on and on in a loud way, just made me lay down and wail like a tiny bayby for as long as the ranting went on.
    > there was even not much feeling involved there, merely an early activated physical reaction to announce I did not like the atmosphere of anger and wanted it to stop, if one wants to put words on it.
    > my wailing immediately stopped when the rant stoped, and I could just focus on the rest of the group continuing.
    > that kind of access seems to be facilitated by some groups, in my comparison putting me already halfway on the entrance pathway to primal feeling.
    >
    > various ‘slots’ might be helpful to activate the feeling,but on the other hand it is also all too easy to be taken out of it and defenses taking over again.
    > I find this such an interesting subject and wish I could delve deeper in it and hear more inspiring thoughts and opinions about it.
    > M

  184. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > am studying evolutionary psychology and ran into a quote from Nesse that seems to fit in with the discussion and made me think about its adaptation value, maybe useful in a proximate way but I doubt whether it is a good adaptation in an ultimate way.
    > maybe in quantities of offspring it is, seemingly so if we look at overpopulation, but in a qualitative way it has its huge flaws..
    > M

  185. Miguel says:

    “Primal Therapy is about creating that safety in my opinion.”

    Hi to every body:

    Barry I liked Jack post about the cure and your response, especially concerning that of Primal Therapy is about creating that safety . In my opinion that it is what you and the Primal Institute had contributed creating that safety and refining practice and specially the atmosphere of the retreats where you create the most favorable conditions for the retrieving of store of feelings and events ,what it is called the mediation or conditions of feeling the pain. Again the dialectics.

    Also I think you and the Primal Institute shaded light on the importance of having a good quality and lasting therapeutic relationship. It is so good to have such a good surrogate parents. So again thanks Barry and the Primal Institute for your contributions of improving the practice of what we call Primal therapy.

    • Phil says:

      Hi Miguel,
      I agree with what you say here on the importance of having a good quality and lasting therapeutic relationship. I’m finding that to be true. This wasn’t exactly the way it worked when I started in New York, besides the issue of that center closing. At a certain point soon after the 3 week intensive, people were encouraged to try working with various therapists or therapist trainees. So this might be a more recent innovation maybe reflecting the understanding that the therapy takes longer than first expected.
      Phil

  186. Miguel says:

    Barry, I liked Jack´s post and your response about it

  187. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > I relate to finding the agony hard to bear, unacceptable really sort of, for all creatures, but sadly enough part of this imperfect world. We had a dog during my childhood, Sokrates, who once escaped and ran around in the woods etc. behind the house, and fell in an old waterreservoir from which the small lid was broken, and drowned.
    > that is an awful thought…
    >
    > but we also had chicken, who had a very pleasurable life, and it usually ended at some point with my dad putting their head on a piece of wood, and chopping it off.
    > I have seen it a number of times, and it did not affect me too much as I liked to take the feathers off afterwards.
    > the thing is the chicken did not seem aware at all of what was going to happen, and can’t have suffered from such a fast death.
    >
    > I regret cattle is not being killed with a shot in the head anymore in the fields where they graze, like used to happen in the small farms not that many decades ago.
    > the inhumanity now of the industrial farms and slaughterhouses is a disgrace for humankind.
    >
    > all creatures have to die, but we should not inflict suffering if there is any way to avoid it.
    >
    > I appreciate you putting an end to the insects suffering, but hope they find other ways to collect them!
    > M

  188. Daniel says:

    To continue our discussion I’d like to begin with a quote from Jack and a quote from Margaret because I think they go into the heart of the matter as I understand it:

    Jack:

    “there is quite a whole other areas to our ‘being’ that got thwarted in childhood by preventing the natural, normal and simple EXPRESSION of the feelings…”. “The process is so simple in concept … However, due to the horrendous ‘pain’ in bringing them back into consciousness we are reluctant to “just let it happen””

    Margaret:

    “what it is that drives us to either suppress or process unresolved emotions …”. “if very painful and ongoing things happen, that gets too difficult to incorporate in our ‘scheme’ so the only left option might be to suppress that experience, put it on hold so to say to possibly be later incorporated with more information or better resources to deal with it”

    .
    The post ignited a discussion about anxiety and fear and dreams. I think, and it has been my experience, that nightmares and certain fears contain all sorts of stuff (mostly images) whose accompanying anxiety quickly dissipates upon waking up or turning on a light. This is stuff that can be Primaled and remembered. Why? Because it is, as Janov says, symbolic – it is a mental content that has a meaning even if that meaning is not readily available due to repression. These are the feelings that Jack is referring to, those that need expression because expression was denied when they were first experienced.

    But what about those impressions that never got the chance to materialize and become experienced as true feelings that might then be repressed? What about those that remained in statu nascendi, a state of sense impressions only?

    Contrary to nightmares and certain anxieties, terror and night terror are mostly without content, just pure fear or nameless dread and muffled sensations of emptiness and inner void. And there’s not much one can do to stop it (like waking up). It is a black hole whose agonies are of an arbitrary world inundated with chaos, of existence hanging by a thread, of falling forever, and in which the catastrophe looming is the dissolution of the very self.

    It is questionable whether these agonies can be primaled and remembered. Why? Because these are not mental contents that have been repressed and therefore are capable of producing the symbols Janov is talking about, but more likely mental-contents-to-be, proto-feelings in the state of primitive affects or sense impressions. This is first line stuff.

    To be sure, these agonies are also the outcome of something that went wrong in that first bond with our parents but I don’t think it is the work of repression or the inability to express that made them what they are. I think Margaret’s quote above nails it in that it isn’t about expressing something (which is there but repressed) but rather about experiencing something (which is yet to be there).

    But the fact that these proto-affects and sense impressions were not converted into mental content (feelings, thoughts) that can be repressed and later retrieved doesn’t mean they cannot be abreacted, the purpose of which may be the evacuation of these un-metabolized elements to somewhere outside the self.

  189. Sylvia says:

    Daniel, in the last paragraph I like that you are saying that the first line can be relived, those sensations of terror, unbearable separation anxiety, etc. can be touched on and resolved.
    I know that Janov believes that first line trauma is represented again on the second and third lines and may be compounded or lessened depending on how you are treated in childhood. I found it interesting a study said babies that did not have adequate nutrition grew up to be suspicious of others. What happens early on can affect us for ever.

    I think that is why Janov believes gestation is so important because it sets the foundation of how resilient you are going to be later in adversity. It makes sense if you are a healthy baby there’s a better chance of coping.

  190. swisslady says:

    David, Phil and Margaret, thanks for listening and for your kind and encouraging words! It is indeed very difficult to keep opening up about the sexual abuse. When I go silent after posting, it is because speaking out brings up a lot of fear. I then have the need to go into hiding for a bit and “protect” myself.

    David, you didn’t say anything to frustrate or disappoint me, nor do I expect you to come up with a similar detailed response about your experience. We are in a different place in the recovery of memory phase. I appreciate all your feedback. I agree with you that we need to “reduce the level of pain” before we can remember fully. For me, I need to get stronger and feel more empowered in the present before I can face the full truth of the past – maybe that’s the same. I think your recent experience with your own shadow on the wooden floor shows that you are on the mend. As I see it, you were able to bring the feeling of the past experience into the present and were okay with it.

    Margaret, you posed a good question “…if you might also have been afraid to be blamed, accused of whatever?” I think this entirely possible. But at the moment, I can’t connect to these feelings in the context of the oral rape. However, when my uncle raped me at age 5, I definitely didn’t speak out because I was afraid to trust my mother, and I sensed that I would be blamed. My mother had a knack of blaming me when I got into trouble.

    A couple days after my initial post about the oral abuse I had a dream. In the dream I was lying on the bed and all of sudden, the ceiling above me opened up and a gazillion rats crawled out of the crack. One of the rats fell on my face, where it lay, lifeless but still warm, across my mouth and nose, suffocating me. I woke up gasping and in terror. I instantly connected this with the oral abuse, it made sense. But now I also think the rat across my mouth symbolized the “I can’t speak out” feeling as well.

    Over the last few days, I have been negotiating with my future employer, a man, about the terms of my future employment. I have been really tough on him, saying exactly what I want and don’t want, which took a lot of courage, especially now as I’m dealing with these feelings. Yesterday, after another phone call with him, I was first elated and happy for facing up to him, felt empowered and strong, but soon the fear caught up with me. I started feeling that he hates me now, thinks I’m too demanding, too ‘high maintenance’ (I hate that term, btw, it’s so misogynistic), unreasonable, complicated, etc. I realize these feelings are rearing their ugly heads again because I’m setting limits, which I was not allowed to do as a child. I can speak out now, push it a bit with him because I am not desperate for the job. So it’s good practice to face the old feeling in the present context.

    Then last night, a night terror. I woke up soaked in sweat, clothes and sheets wet through. My jaws clenched so that my face hurt. My neck and shoulders tensed up. I didn’t remember a dream, or any context that could match this expression of physical symptoms. But I did know that it is an expression of immense fear/terror.

    Today I’ve been feeling unwell, which is not saying much, but all I can say, nothing feels right. Just another “feeling” surrounding the incident needing to be experienced. I lay down a bit, feeling some of the fear, letting my body tremble, paying attention to the tightness in neck and shoulders, clenched jaws, trying to put myself mentally back into the space where the incident took place. Reached out to my husband for some comfort and safety. Later I screamed in my car, getting angry at my father for being such a chauvinist, for ignoring me all my life, for not liking me no matter how much I tried to please him. I am quite proud of myself for being able to express anger toward my father. I was always afraid of him, all my life.

    I know I was orally raped, but yet have to recover further details. In particular, I want to clearly remember who the perpetrator was. I can see that the fear that originated with this experience seeps through all layers of my existence, past and present, colors all my perceptions. What I can do, is face it simultaneously on all levels, wherever it shows up.
    –Bernadette

    • David says:

      Bernadette, thanks for your feedback on my situation and for sharing your latest experiences. The back and forth that you describe between the past and the present sounds to me like primal therapy working at it’s optimum. It’s really great that you could stand up to your prospective employer, asserting yourself and setting boundaries. Things you couldn’t do in the past with your abusers. You felt powerful: a good feeling. Whereas in the past there was only powerlessness. So it’s no wonder that feelings from that time are getting triggered. I relate to that feeling of always being afraid of my father.

      For me, in dreams, big spiders have symbolized my fear, being chased or jumped on by them. Or should I say, fear always accompanies them in dreams. Fairly recently, I had a dream where I was killing one by stamping on it, which was completely new as far as I can remember. I haven’t made any connection between spiders in dreams and fear instilled by abuse. But the fact that I have been feeling feelings around sexual abuse recently and then have this empowering dream, to me suggests a connection. That would be logical. I’m just trying to join the dots.

      Today, I was feeling really fatigued and was sure there was some old feeling behind it. I went up to my room, but felt huge resistance to lying down on the bed. I manically paced up and down the short space in my room, until finally making myself say out loud “I don’t want to lie down”. This brought some tears, and then finally I lay down and very fast the feeling “no, no, please don’t do it daddy” came up. This is how I know myself who the perpetrator is. Not through remembering any scenes, but what I find myself saying, which makes it pretty unequivocal. I wonder if you find your self saying anything to abusers in your feelings? I the past I’ve also felt hatred towards my father and needing my mother to help me.

      Yesterday, I cried very deeply about my father when I went out for a walk on a nearby moor. Feeling about all the things that I loved and cared about as a child that I couldn’t share with my parents, that I had to keep hidden, because I felt I had to cut myself off from them as self protection. And then into grief about how terrible my relationship with my father was.

  191. I went to Friday group, even though it was my son’s birthday. I missed the previous group, and I hate birthdays. Z and kid have their own 2-person thing going anyways and i am just a bitchy old bummer of a person to be around.. They rang me at 10pm at the PI, when group seemed still to be in full swing. I enjoyed listening to the other 4 patient’s talking and I was unable to say anything myself. When the group started, I got the same old feeling of fear and dread that I usually have gotten over the years in group about being around people. It was not so pronounced at the previous group, some of the attendees at the previous group, I feel ,more comfortable around. I did not feel bad that I did not talk, at least not TOO HORRIBLY bad, like i have in the past, leaving group after 4 or 5 hours having said nothing. . I will be able to use the room at the PI tomorrow and see if any feelings come up from my so-called miserable life or the events in this group. I guess some people are able to feel things in the moment, whatever. Maybe not all patients. Any way, some things I could have said, related to things that others said about how people loved them at work and also how the women in the group were able to give someone relationship and/or dating advice. I could have said how bad I feel that no one ever gave me that advice,and I never knew any of that stuff about dating women. And that pretty much every few days at work, I think about the people I work with, and there is really only one person that I truly like and get along with, and I mutter to myself as I get out of my car and walk up the long staircase to the boring morning meeting and I rattle off the names of the other guys, one by one, saying no, I don’t trust or like this one, the same for each one, go down the line through all of them. There is something I cant say in the group and I will probably never be able to say it in a session either, very sensitive. Anyway the kid and z rang me up at 10pm at group, waiting outside iin the car, and they were my ride home, so I had to go, even though I wanted to hear the others continue speaking. Kid and Z had gone to the movies for his birthday, so I felt left out and also guilty for not celebrating his birthday, even though I forced myself to go to a weird Mexican restaurant last night as a celebration post-phd-presentation by the kid, and it was also a pre-birthday dinner. Anyway they had ordered thai food tonight to be picked up after they picked me up at 10pm, at the PI, so they picked me up at group and we went over to westwood, and people were all out in th street and eateries, and I felt even more left out, because that is something I rarely get the opportunity of doing. I remain pissed at my wife for spending money thoughtlessly, CONSTANTLYY EATING OUT, so that I now have to get up at 330 am 4 hours from now, so I can get some overtime to pay all her fucking bills. As I said previously, when she goes with kid to ohio, I hope she stays. They are taking a vacation to some 3rd world country for 2 weeks and she wants money for a passport, and something else and something else. The kid and her were happily talking about their birthday evening of movies and massages ion the ride home, and I am in the back seat pitying myself. Of coursa acting out or whatever it is I do, maybe self-flagelation or masochism, who knows. There are plenty of people at work who SEEM to like me, but I am pretty sure most of them like me because I drop what I am doing to fix their computer equipment. Goodnight from a miserable bastard piece of shit. I really enjoyed going to the group. Thank you. Having said this on the blog, i feel a tiny bit better.

  192. Margaret says:

    Daniel,
    > what is important in my opinion is that when the original traumatic event happened, what got suppressed was the allowing of it into awareness, but of course not the experience itself, which was out of our control.
    >
    > in my own case, I think there was a moment during my birth when I started geting overwhelmed with the sensation of being squeezed too tightly over and over again, in an increasing degree which was becoming so unbearable it invoked a feeling of panic, a feeling of not being able to cope anymore, a feeling of I am not gonna make it.
    > consciousness did or tried to shut itself down at some moment, maybe a similar process like how prey animals get into a state of shock at some point during their capture, or we pass out in too much physical pain.
    >
    > as a child I used to have recurrent nightmares when I had a fever, of waves of increasing suffocating threat coming onto me, leading to a point where I could not stand the input anymore, and on one occasion screamed to my mom in the other room to turn the radio off, or to stop vacuuming.
    >
    > other dreams where literally me in my own particular world, which then suddenly began to become smaller and smaller also leading to an increasing feeling of terror at some point.
    >
    > later on, when I remembered those vivid nightmares, and finally recognized their pure primal content, it really struck me how they contained undisguised birth stuff, and what struck me most of all was the intense level of consciousness I felt at the beginning of the experience, and during the first stages, when things were still ok.
    >
    > my point is our dreams can be a way into those very early feelings, as they are also a way into fear or sadness that often is hard to access.
    >
    > and sometimes they are puzzling, like tonight I had a dream filled with threat, but also with the ugliness this world contains, kind of, I was hiding in order not to be killed, with someone that first seemed attractive but really had no genuine interest in me, and we had to witness other people being held captive, and raped, before they would certainly be killed.
    > it was somewhere in old tunnels under the ground, we were all refugees, and the little group of us had refused to comply to being taken captive to work in what must have been like concentration camps, had tried to escape and would be punished for that by being killed. my companion and I had managed to hide in a small hiding spot, risking to be spotted soon, and being forced to witness the ugly rape of a woman.
    >
    > where does this dream root?
    > some thoughts during the day, reading, news and my own feelings of hopelessness and fear?
    >
    > sometimes dreams are still a process working up to something else or not, just mirroring feelings of the day without the defense system censoring?
    >
    > dreams are such an interesting world, the first word springing to my mind, I am a very intensive dreamer, and all feelings appear in them, also joy and bliss, and occasionally delicious laughter.
    >
    > it is such a shame in a lot of present psychology so much emphasis lies on empirical and reproducible evidence.
    > how on earth can stuff like this ever get some of the attention it really deserves?
    >
    > Daniel, what exactly do you ask about these early preverbal experiences?
    > some of them can be more easily be felt in group settings in the right circumstances, in my personal experience, while others might be harder to access, if ever, although I am very aware of their original impact.
    >
    > once I also had a dream in a setting of being up in an attraction on a fair, and suddenly falling out of it, being upside down, and held only by my ankles, full of fear to fall down with my head aiming at the floor..
    > i remember looking up in the direction of my feet, and spotting this bloody dangled mass on my belly…
    > then I woke up.
    >
    > this for me was also a dream which seemed to offer me a right after birth primal connection, memory, that needed to be completed seemingly.
    >
    > maybe that is the key word, completed. we maybe shut the full experience, or the full awareness off and those neural pathways still wait to be fully integrated, as the depth of the intensity prevents them from simply vanishing as unimportant events do.
    >
    > ok, now I am gonna read the next comments of this mornings mail.
    > really like this discussion, Daniel,
    > M

  193. Margaret says:

    > thinking more about my dream from this night, I guess it represents my worst nightmare, like if I would have been that woman, she had no hope whatsoever, only the knowledge her life was gonna end, in a dreadful way, she could only hope it would come soon, without too much cruelty first, but certainly in an ugly filthy way…
    > maybe it is talking about spiders, the way they catch their prey and save it for later sometimes, and about my dog that drowned, the irreversible and so unfair deep suffering that can be part of this world.
    > all that pain, all that desperate fear and fainting hope.
    > especially the dog crawling and not being able to get out is an unbearable idea.,but not an idea, it was all too real for the dog..
    > just ran into a similar scene in a novel, which was hard to read, a little nine year old girl was not strong enough to pull the dog out, and her mom was too drunk to respond to her desperate plea to come for help, and when she found her dad, he only paid attention to her mom.
    > so she did not return to the dog in the basin, could not face the enormity of the disaster and of the despair of the dog..
    >
    > those things for me make it so crystal clear there can be no god, if he’d be truely perfect he could have made a world without all that suffering
    >
    > but now I am getting sidetracked..
    > M

  194. Margaret says:

    > I feel kind of happy I never seem to think in terms of first or second or third line.
    > don’t even know in detail where the lines are separating the theoretical concepts.
    > going into a feeling seems more like a continuum to me, sometimes it is mainly adult sadness, sometimes it goes back to baby wails or just silent whatever, mouth wide open, slow spasms feeling like a prelude to something else still out of reach.
    > we all have our own personal style and journey, but it is great to commmunicate about it.
    > M

  195. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    It is an interesting discussion. Sometimes I have dreams of being stuck in some awful, bizarre
    situation. These dreams don’t happen often but when they do, they are very intense.
    A theme in some of my sessions is being stuck. Stuck with a job I can’t change, just stuck in
    my life, etc, etc, The feelings involved relate to childhood scenes and sometimes at the end,
    there are just the physical sensations and breathing which go with the stuck feeling, which I have supposed are be birth related. But I wouldn’t say that those dreams contain terror, or only on a few very rare occasions, that I don’t recall. Also, terror just doesn’t come up for me, thankfully,.
    It could be because, in a general way, I still clamp down and control, so maybe don’t let that stuff come up, as I’m not ready for it.
    Phil

  196. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > what also crossed my mind as a possibility is that terror is often directly related to not understanding and therefor not having any feeling of control over the threat that is strongly experienced.
    > then all the system can do is process the feeling of terror bit by bit by mainly going through the experience without being able to connect it to specific memories.
    > no other than to the feeling of danger, possibly mortal danger..
    >
    > that might be different in cases of the same threatening and hurtful situation having been repeatedly inflicted, then specific associations would arise.
    > just ideas crossing my mind..
    > M

  197. Margaret says:

    I am copying the ongoing discussion as it is so inspiring, and noticed, or seemingly so as I get a bit confused by copypasng stuff, I might have missed out on pasting Nesse’s quote, so in case, here it is, with a small observation that followed it:

    ‘The emotions are specialized models of operations shaped by natural selection to adjust the physiological, psychological and behavioral parameters of the organism in ways that increase its capacity and tendency to respond adaptively to the threats and opportunities characteristic of specific kinds of situations.’ (Nesse, 1990)
    maybe suppression starts to take place when the emotion starts being perceived as threatening the system in its goal to respond in opportune ways to its environment, for example the parents demanding behavior suiting their own needs in some way? then the ‘second line adaptation would be to suppress the original response and replace it by what seems to be the (second best) option to cope with one’s environment as a child,?

  198. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    “maybe suppression starts to take place when the emotion starts being perceived as threatening the system in its goal to respond in opportune ways to its environment, for example the parents demanding behavior suiting their own needs in some way? then the ‘second line adaptation would be to suppress the original response and replace it by what seems to be the (second best) option to cope with one’s environment as a child”,?
    What about this? Suppression of emotions becomes the opportune response to the environment, because the original response was inadequate, the pain wasn’t felt and was
    internalized.
    Children are too young to be able to fend for themselves and to respond
    appropriately; they are immature emotionally, cognitively, and sexually. They need their parents nurturing to complete development. Without that development is warped in various ways
    including suppression of feelings. But adults also can have their functioning warped by traumas,
    it seems. With feelings suppressed we aren’t fully functioning people.
    Phil

  199. Patrick says:

    I do feel an awful lot of this Trump ‘hate’ or ‘disdain’ does mostly miss the point. Here is something from a counterpunch story about Trump

    “Let me just rattle off the five questions he (Trump) has asked.

    (First) why must the United States lead the world everywhere on the globe and play the role of the world’s policeman, now for example, he says, in Ukraine? It’s a question. It’s worth a discussion.

    Secondly, he said, NATO was founded 67 years ago to deter the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union ended 25 years ago. What is NATO’s mission? Is it obsolete? Is it fighting terrorism? No, to the last question, it’s not. Should we discuss NATO’s mission?

    Thirdly, he asks, why does the United States always pursue regime changes? Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, and now it wants a regime change in Syria, Damascus. When the result is, to use Donald Trump’s favorite word, the result is always “disaster.” But it’s a reasonable question.

    Fourthly, why do we treat Russia and Putin as an enemy when he should be a partner?

    Fifth Trump asks, about nuclear weapons – and this is interesting. You remember he was asked, would he rule out using nuclear weapons – an existential question. He thought for a while and then he said, “No, I take nothing off the table.” And everybody said he wants to use nuclear weapons! In fact, it is the official American nuclear doctrine policy that we do not take first use off the table. We do not have a no first use of nuclear weapons doctrine. So all Trump did was state in his own way what has been official American nuclear policy for, I guess, 40 or 50 years.

    …It seems to me that these five questions, which are not being discussed by the other presidential candidates, are essential. ….”

    I would say it’s essential and all the more so as Hillary to me falls down on ALL of these questions. She is for war, war and more war. To me that is a lot worse than ‘insulting’ people. Would anyone rather have a bomb dropped on their head or ‘insulted’. Should be an easy choice.Mind you I don’t have much faith really in Trump esp now as he is being backed by ‘super-Zionist” Sheldon Abelson. Just as Hillary is being backed by another ‘super-Zionist’ Haim Saban (and George Soros). So there you have it another “President for Israel’ or would that be considered ‘hate speech’ Hate speech or not it’s a fact.

    • LOL, there’s a quote on the front of Trump’s “Art of the Deal” book saying “He makes one believe in the American Dream again.”

      It’s a very strong echo to today’s “Make America Great Again” slogan.

      OK, sooo….how many words has the world’s news media devoted to Donald Trump since his birth to today?

      I’m guessing 10 quintillion words (10,000,000,000,000,000),

    • Quote: “So there you have it another “President for Israel’ or would that be considered ‘hate speech’ Hate speech or not it’s a fact.”

      No!!! but it does signify extreme bitterness on your part … BUT to the best of my reading of you you have never, nor do I feel you would ever; consider your bitterness and from whence it came. Of course that would constitute self anal-izing … which I gather you don’t believe in.

      Jack

  200. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > yes.
    > there is an evolutionary psychologist, Friederikson, sorry if I misspell, have been listening to audio course, who claims, and it makes sense to me, negative emotions like fear and anger and sadness tend to narrow down our attention, while positive emotions like you, love , contentment and happiness broaden it up.
    > it makes sense, in rage there seems little else on one’s mind than the focus of anger, and if we are happy we are ready to offer all kinds of attention and support to other people, at least that is how it is for me..
    > M

  201. Margaret says:

    > Phil, yes, that is exactly what I mean.
    > it is probably what Janov also referred to as the splitting off, when at some point the unreal outgoes the real, but I think it might be a question of degrees maybe, like a continuum in gradations from completely free to feel and express oneself towards well, don’t really know, suicidal maybe, or psychotic or psychopathic or maybe completely taken over by acting out?
    > M

  202. Phil says:

    I hope we don’t have any trump voters here. I think his candidacy is a huge joke. I’d vote for Donald Duck ahead of Donald Trump, or maybe Bozo the clown. We will be laughed at by the entire world, I don’t know what people are thinking. It does make for some very good comedy on the late night shows, though.
    I read an interesting opinion piece that struck me as very true. Democracy is good, but things can become so democratic that an authoritarian gets in and then the whole experiment comes to an end. The Nazis in Germany were voted into power, it should be remembered.
    I’m happy to see the republican party with all these problems but Trump is a dangerous idiot, and I’m afraid he has a fair chance of being elected.
    Phil

    • David says:

      “I think his candidacy is a huge joke. I’d vote for Donald Duck ahead of Donald Trump, or maybe Bozo the clown. We will be laughed at by the entire world”

      Phil, your Donald Duck comment made me laugh. But I don’t know who would be laughing at a Trump presidency, if that’s what you’re alluding to. Really, this joke isn’t funny any more! I was watching the news recently that had some poll or other putting Trump ahead of Clinton for the first time. Hearing this I felt a jolt of fear. Like this just can’t be happening. Fortunately, they qualified it by saying that Clinton’s numbers in the poll didn’t include the 70% of Bernie Sanders voters who will vote for Clinton should she win the nomination, which she almost certainly will. So I could breath a little easier after that. When I see him on TV, I’m not so much watching him now as I’m watching his supporters, as it fascinates me as to what sort of person thinks Donald Trump is great. And how can there be so many of them?!

      • Phil says:

        David,
        Yes, Trump is scary, and it’s discouraging that so many people think it’s a good idea to vote for him. The other republican candidates who lost, at least all seemed to display some intelligence and coherence in their views.
        We have political gridlock here, and a lot of people have been left out of the economic recovery. I can’t see why anyone would find Trump to be the answer to those problems.
        All I can think is that the Trump supporters don’t carefully follow or fully understand what’s going on in the world, to say the least. It makes me wonder if voters should pass some basic test about the workings of the government, the economy, world affairs, etc before they are allowed to vote.
        If Trump wins maybe I’ll move to Spain with my wife, who is a Spaniard. It would be quite scary and an embarrassment to have him as president. I hoping and thinking the current polling doesn’t mean much 5 months before the election, when Hillary Clinton still hasn’t wrapped up her nomination, and as you say, Bernie Sander’s supporters aren’t yet on board.
        Phil

      • David: There’s a theory out there that Trumps supporters are not the type to go out and vote on election day. If that has any merit, I hope it is the case. It’s one thing to protest the status quo … it’s yet another matter to figure out what those protester really want, as opposed to don’t want.

        Jack

  203. Patrick says:

    I notice yesterday Trump said he would withdraw from all UN climate change programs and would repudiate the recent Paris deal. Sounds terrible right?…………………and he is mocked all over the place for this………………BUT as it happens it seems all this ‘chemtrail spraying’ and very harmful ‘geo engineering’ is done under a so called UN program though that is really just providing cover for the US military. Anyway my point is he may be mocked in ‘liberal’ outlets like Huffington Post or NY Times or Washington Post etc but in fact the way I understand it it would be a VERY good idea to drop out of all so called UN climate programs

    Trump probably does not actually understand this but to me his ‘instincts’ have a bit of hope in them unlike the ‘programmed’ Hillary spewing politically correct bs while just planning the NEXT war how disgusting is that. Trump also a few months ago said he was worried about excessive vaccination again you will NEVER hear a word of that breathed by Hillary or as some call her KILL ary………………….I find most of this ‘hate Trump’ stuff lame and is usually just people being TOLD to think that way and sure enough they do……………….even the “Rubicon Crossers” do as ‘radical’ as they like themselves to be…………….

  204. Quote:- “Trump probably does not actually understand this but to me his ‘instincts’ have a bit of hope in them unlike the ‘programmed’ Hillary spewing politically correct bs while just planning the NEXT war how disgusting is that.”

    My reading of Trump is that he does not believe in war: just nuking those nations that don’t fall into his line with his thinking, (AKA as insane bull-shit to many)..

    The real perceived problem with Hilary are her emails. I personally don’t see that any other Secretary of State got into trouble with private email servers.. It seems to me that Republican will jump on any thing she does as improper.; since it would seem there is little they can now do about their (reluctant) nominee.

    If you really feel the guy has any point or reasoning; then I tempted to think you sense of reasoning is a bit out of ‘flunter’ … bordering on dementia. Careful Patrick. I ask you look to the fate of Reagan and his soul mate, Margaret Thatcher.

    Jack

    • Patrick says:

      To me the ‘problem’ with Hillary has nothing to do with emails. She more or less personally orchestrated the destruction of Libya, she was more than enthusiastic about the Iraq War, she has been super hawkish about destroying Syria (Assad) to me she is a truly evil person maybe not consciously but in the effects she creates. And she is not done yet I would be more than afraid if I lived in Iran if she becomes President she seems to have no problem starting these wars with immense suffering caused all around. But then again I come back to the “President for Israel” thing all these wars are clearly the Israeli ‘plan’…………………a plan for world ruination it seems. In the light of all that I would if I had a vote vote for Trump he is PROBABLY ‘bad’ Hillary we KNOW is ‘bad’ Trump may be a bad gamble but Hillary is a TERRIBLE gamble actually not even a gamble I feel pretty sure I know what she will do…………….

      • Quote:- “But then again I come back to the “President for Israel” thing all these wars are clearly the Israeli ‘plan’”

        There you go again anal-izing Netenyatu. For someone that didn’t study psychology or even less psychiatry you really come accross as a very ego-testical maniac IMO. I wonder … perhaps you have studied and practiced telepathy and can mind read everone and everthing … EXCEPT YOURSELF.

        Just to see exactly where all this adds up in your head … I wonder if you were able to vote here … who would you chose … between the remaining three. I feel if you would answer this question (which I very much doubt, since if feel you instictively know it would reveal so much about you) that seemingly you NEED to keep under wraps.

        Suggestion:- from someone you deem; has not the slightest intention of helping you, how about instead of psycho-anal-izing, just say who and what you like. that way there is little need to give a reason. It then truely become a REAL feeling. Oh!!!! forgot … you have another way to live life by soaking in cold water and eating paleo stuff OR least-ways that put out by your buddy Kruse.

        Jack

  205. Waking up from a nap in Southern Calif, light cool push of air wafting through my open door. Thinking about Mrs. Gray, for some reason. She was the old woman across the street when we lived in Long Beach when I was a teenager. Her husband had died and somehow I ended up being her gardener after she got rid of her Japanese gardener, for some reason. I think my grandmother had talked to her about me working for her. My grandmother talked a lot, either to me, or to her sister (my Great Aunt) on the phone. I don’t remember which way, but I recall hearing her say that Mrs. Gray’s husband had done everything for her, all the work around the house, I guess, probably disapproving of that, because my grandmother disapproved of most women. And men. Or if it was not my grandmother’s idea to keep me working, Maybe I had just decided to make money around the neighborhood doing gardening. Whatever. It was nothing like some movie older woman neighbor who takes you in and feeds you and fucks you. She was kind of mousey and middleaged with graying hair and not much good-looking and did not appear to have much of a personality, but I wouldn’t have thought much about that kind of stuff at that age. I just did things, moved forward somehow, not too much thought involved. Probbly better than watching too much TV, which I did anyways. Mrs. Gray had me plant her bare-root roses and take a heavy rake and scratch her lawn and put grass seed and fertilizer on it, all in a very particular manner. She always had a cigarette in her hand. I pulled her weeds and it hurt my bare hands to do so, I don’t know if I wore gloves or not, cut myself on her rose bushes and other plants. She would hand me my payment out of a little coin purse on the steps of her doorway. Not sure why I remembered this waking up, now that I think about it, it could be the feel of spring in the air, or actually some asshole had his leaf blower blaring as I was sound asleep, but it is sure better than the gloomy deathly thoughts that usually come to my mind when I wake up. Mrs. Gray must have had some influence on me, but I don’t know what it is. I got more jobs around the neighborhood in the years to come; maybe watching my grandma work so much washing clothes, hanging clothes, vacuuming, cooking, listening to her religion shows on the radio, all that good stuff, made me want to keep busy too. I think my grandma kept busy not only because she was a clean-freak German, but to keep from remembering the long slow horrendous death of my mother over 8 months.

  206. Here is an interesting astrological view of the Donald. who knows if it matters. i just have not too much interest in this stuff. where do they come up with these idiots who want to rule the world? someone is going to press that button someday (i guess you could say AGAIN), and fuck everybody up. I am not sure that Hillary would do it, who knows who it will be and where. there. some doom and gloom for a saturday afternoon…evening. maybe i am stupid, but it seems to me that mr. barrack actually created the syrian war, by encouraging the arab spring. i have no idea. i dont listen to many indepth pbs or whatever news shows. i am confident that what is going to happen, will actually indeed happen. a roll of the dice? it is written (lawrence of arabia)? as allah wills it? life is a bitch and then you die? The Astrology of Donald Trump patheos.com

    • Otto: I feel you are right on. Someone is going to set off, perhaps many nukes. My take on The Donald is that as lang as he has the right to press the button he’ll use it. Isn’t that was business is all about????? “If you don’t use it … you lose it”. I don’t think you need to be a news junkie like me, which I’m sure is an act out of one kind or another.

      Meantime, a couple of things have had me crying some. The first was my Jimbo having to go for what should have been a minor operation and again turned out complicated and he finished up spending 5 days in hospital and in pain. I missed him more badly than I thought.

      The other was that I stepped of the curb on a walk to the bank and the curb was higher than I anticipated and I fell and I think cracked a rib. I was in agony especially trying to sleep for a couple of nights, but refused to take any pain killers. Knowing that even had I gone to the hospital there is nothing they can do about a cracked rib. So I suffered it out with yells and moaning and groaning with no-one to blame but myself, and meantime the ribs are beginning to feel less painful and I’m told by those that are into medicine that after a few weeks it should all get better of it’s own accord, which it seems to be doing.

      The lesson is to take it more carefully and begin to finally accept I’m getting old. Still comparatively, whatever that means, I had a good run … thanks to a fairly good mother and a doting granny, when I was little. What a gift

      Jack

      • Phil says:

        Jack,
        Probably just tape around the rib cage is all they would do. Sorry to hear about that and Jimbo. I hope you feel better soon.
        Phil

      • David says:

        Jack, I’m sorry to hear about your mishap. Sounds painful! I hope you’re on the mend soon.

        • David: Thanks for your concern, but I am already on the mend. I doubt I’ll get totally mended, as per Humpty Dumpty, but all the ……… men couldn’t put Humpty Jack totally together AGAIN.

          Too far broken I suspect 🙂 🙂 . But I know what you mean and thanks again.

          Jack

      • Larry says:

        Take care of yourself Jack. Here is a Van Morrison tribute to you, or at least it made me think of you.

  207. Donald Duck is actually Mr. Trump’s half-brother on his sister-wife’s side. Bugs Bunny might be a better choice. He could probably keep Elmer Putin at bay.

  208. I am very against those glue traps they have for bugs and mice. they had them in our computer room years ago and it horrified me. one mouse died with its eye glued to the bottom of the trap. one mouse i was able to smuggle out and i poured vegetable oil on it and it got free, over at the cemetary. On a worse note, when i was much younger, i had horrible cockroaches and so i used poison under the fridge. They all came out and for some reason they were like half-paralyzed and wiggling for a long time. i felt i had to do like Larry and so i stomped them all into oblivion and this is one of the horrible thoughts that plagues me to this day. Now i have a kitchen full of roaches and i dont know what i can do except move. You cant talk to them, they wont listen to any advice about heading on down the road.

    • Larry says:

      In the kitchen are they. I’m pretty sure that If you leave them nothing to eat, the roaches won’t stay. That did the trick in my friend’s condo. It means no food left out on counter tops, no crumbs on the floor, no food scraps in the garbage can unless the scraps are sealed in a plastic bag, and no pet food left out for them.

    • Otto: I feel Larry hit it on the head. Don’t leave any food scraps or crumbs lying around. Sweep and vacuum often. On old lady gave Jim and I a tip. All our waste food and peels and organic stuff we put into a plastic back and put it in the freezer section of the fridge. When the bag is full, seal it, then take it immediately to the trash can. My Jimbo is clean freak, which I feel is somewhat overdone. He sprays vinegar and water mix, then wipes with kitchen paper towels .on all kitchen and even bathroom surfaces, and sometimes also on the floor if food gets spilled there.

      Not sure if this would answer your question about abreacting, but from the way I see it, is when you push to have a feeling or at worst cry for the sake of crying. If, as in your case, it come about by just listening to music I doubt that would be abreacting. I don’t think Barry would let you continue if he thought you were. It sound right to me.

      Jack

      • Larry says:

        Actually, from my experience, Jack pretty much captured the difference between abreacting and feeling. Abreacting is like making yourself laugh (or cry) to fit in because everyone else is laughing (or crying) but you don’t get the joke (or pathos), or because one is told laughing (or crying) is good for us. Feeling is like laughing without any conscious control of it, because something uniquely funny to you triggers spontaneous laughter in you.

      • Larry says:

        Yeah. Especially leaving the pet food out is like leaving food out for the roaches and inviting them to come in, make themselves at home, sit down to dinner and stay a while.

      • For someone that TOTALLY failed this therapy and worse, actually did not know what it was all about … cos you ‘missed the boat’, I suspect, on reading the book and then even worse, wasted all the money and the time and expense to cross the pond … Then finished up working 17 hours a day 7 days a week, for 28 years, to make something of your life … then giving it away to all the wrong people, according to you; in order to get from underneath all the mental ABREACTING. Then again, I suspect that’s your trade mark..

        Lastly it is sad you never found a girl friend and the only ones that took you seriously were the “gold diggers”. Sorry!!!! there was one that actually did care about you, but she was not glamorous enough for you.

        Seems you’ve totally missed out on life and sadly aren’t even aware of it. How sad is all that????

        If, as I feel you think of yourself … define an ‘abreaction’ as opposed to a ‘real feeling’. Remember; you did come round to my trailer several time for me to sit for you. So I feel I have something to go by. You never offered, nor did I ask you to sit for me.

        Jack

      • Quote:- “…. but unfortunately a trap many have fallen for including myself until I got ‘wise’ a few years ago.”

        I don’t think ANYONE on this blog feels “you got wise”

        My take is you became more and more bitter. And raced further and further into your head in an attempt to figure it all out.

        It’s not ‘figure-able out-able’. It;’s a whole other state of being … that seemingly eludes you … sad to say.

        Jack

  209. Some amazing crying at the PI today. Me crying. I cant recall how it started, beyond listening to a sad song. Yes I recall. It was about a skinny girl who reminded me of my mom. And my skinny aunt who reminded me of my mom. I really don’t feel like writing now. The point was that I would see my aunt and my grandmother, and my great aunt, and my teenage aunt, and my older brother’s faces, and they looked like my mom, and this led me to have some hope that my mom would reappear some day. I got hopeful especially when we all got together again for holidays or whatever. I am not going to be able to do justice to these memories and thoughts. Also as I was crying, I was seeing my mom in her iron lung. I heard snippets of voices of probably my grandma saying that my mom had begged her to bring me. I heard/thought of my mom telling my grandmother she didn’t want to die. I don’t believe this shit, I watch too much House and I probably am making it up in my head. It felt like there was a funeral reception. All the while I could hear things, and I was a year and a half old, so even if I could not fully understand what people said, I could file it or feel their tones. Also this pain of losing my mother at 10 months and being abandoned to my bad aunt and uncle for 8 months, all this pain, all this daily misery, torture, sadness, was being encoded into every fiber of my body, a body that was fast-growing as babies are, the wonder years, stuff coming in a mile a minute and being memory-filed/associated and body and cells expanding like the werewolf in London, muscles growing and dna and intuition and all that jazz, and the pain was spread throughout my entire body. I was on my stomach crying listening to the music, later after many tears and Kleenex, I crouched as if in a crawling position, all the while crying and energy was pushing up into my head, and later at the end when BB was loudly shutting his door, I was sitting and the energy push upward was coming out of every corner of the frame of my body, not a lot, it was just a start, and I also had just a start of some sobbing, and I guess that 38 minutes of crying was enough, so I left. Other things I saw in my mind as I was crying, revisiting the cemetery where my mom and dad were buried. We went every Sunday, my grandma and my brother. I coujld see the car door we got out of at the curb, the cement trash cans, the trees, the things that stick up cant think of name and cant find on google, crypts too, and tall gravestones,my brother joking around, don’t want to stop, the plate things with the names on them, cant think of names, the high bushes and kid sounds playing ball on the other side of the cemetery in their back yards. Gravestone with my dad and mom’s names on it, my dad had my same name, but I had no idea who he was, since he died before I was born. And my dad’s dad and mom’s gravestones, I had no idea ever who they were,never knew them. I saw my grandma’s face a long time, just a still picture, not moving. “Bring” you can hear words. My grandma was a talker and talked frequently to her sister on the phone. She (my mom) wants me to bring the baby to see her in her iron lung. Don’t know if any of this is true, although my cousin once told me that my grandma was out of her mind for doing that. So this is not baby crying, but me adult-crying. I saw the word abreaction in a blog post, and this always dismays me because I have no idea what it means, and I am always terrified that that is all that I am doing, but actually, I believe that I am doing good with this and I believe it, and did I get any relief, maybe. The welbutrin kind of pulls back the feeling a bit. The music I listened to Crazy Arms duet with Jerry Lee and Emmy Lou, felt like church music the way her tone counterpunctuated his. Which makes all of this fall into place, the church at the cemetery, how we always went to church on Sunday morning, and then to the cemetery just about every Sunday afternoon, stopping at San Gabriel nursery for flowers. Churchy funeral reception. Bright light, my bad uncle’s house maybe. Me a year and a half old. It seems to be all coming together, but….feel stupid writing this stuff, as usual.

  210. Sylvia says:

    Otto, it sounds like you are making progress and getting memories back too from your early life. Maybe you can get rid of your roaches like they did on an episode of “Frasier” to get rid of a cricket under the fridge. They tied a gecko or lizard to a string and sent him in. At least nature can take its course–law of the jungle so to speak.

    Margaret, I agree in thinking that it’s not too important to go into a feeling with an idea if it’s third, second or first. Like you say, that is the theory of Primal therapy. It seems like we really know when we’ve touched on first. It has different memories, doesn’t it–more like sensations and being scared. Your dream sounded like when Drs. hold the newborn by the ankles upside down after birth that you produced in your amusement ride near fall-out.
    I had a crushing dream a few years ago where I couldn’t breathe. I didn’t think about it as a baby feeling at the time but later I thought, maybe it was.
    In my daily chores I’m always hesitant to do something that I think is too hard, there’s not enough time or I really don’t want to do it. But I go ahead and do it and find it really wasn’t so hard at all. I’m expecting everything to be a struggle–but then I do it and it was easier than I thought. I’m always fighting an earlier imprint of things are going to be tough.
    Anyways….that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

  211. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > your comment was very touching.
    > I think you are doing extremely well.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Otto, I agree with M, it sounds like you’re doing great.. Also you have a way
      with words, how you write and describe things.
      Phil

  212. Margaret says:

    > Sylvia,
    > your story makes a lot of sense.
    > and Otto, I have red one should never stomp roaches as that is the best way to spread their eggs and future offspring all over..
    > don’t your cats catch them?
    > have you ever read the best comics strip of all, ‘The fabulous furry freak brothers’?
    > they have a side story about an army of roaches, with an admiral supervizing the troops, on one occasion a roach sergeant reports a few dozens of them having been killed by Fat Freddy and many more by Fat Freddy’s cat, and the admiral shrugges his shoulder and replies ‘plenty more where those came from..’
    > in another sequence one of the ‘sccientist’ roches comes racing to the roach admiral yelling he found a splendid new secret weapon. it turns out to be fertility pills…
    >
    > that comic series is the best ever, I could always entirely relate to its freaky stories and it is drawn in such a way I could read them over and over again and always find new details.
    > now of course I cannot see it anymore, but some of the cartoons are engraved in my mind, as are some of the Far Side.
    >
    > actually, roaches are said to be of the strongest species ever, and they are fairly clean, eating up all the filth lying around cleaning it up, and cleaning themselves all the time. of course, they probably don’t wash their feet that often and carry some of it around anyway..
    >
    > they have one gruesome enemy, a wasp that gives them a very precisely aimed sting with a specific chemical substance in a certain part of their brain, thus freezing its free willpower somehow.
    > then the wasp gently takes the roach by the antennas and leads it to a hole in the ground it prepared, and the roach obediently follows, and there the wasp injects it with yet another substance which paralizes the roach, keeping it alive though…
    > then, you guessed it, the wasp lays its eggs on the roach which at hatching find a fresh meal awaiting for them, which remains alive and fresh for a long time while they feed on it.
    >
    > one can only hope the injected chemicals provide also sweet dreams and a good analgesic…
    >
    > yeah, mother nature, or a bit of a sick creator if you ask me otherwise..
    > one would start sympathizing with those roaches, offering them shelter…
    > almost…
    >
    > light keeps them away, maybe installing neon lights under the fridge and the sink and behind the trashcan would help, if you leave it on overnight….
    >
    > I often dream about having to clean up filthy houses, never felt up to it in my dreams.
    > yesterday though I dreamed I was in a house that was not that dirty, just needed some vacuuming, it was fairly big and I did feel I would not be able to do it all, but felt like doing it anyway. I knew my mother was supposed to do it, but really felt like giving her a hand..
    >
    > that sounded already like the recurring dreams taking a better direction.
    >
    > then this night I dreamed I was installing a new home for myself, trying to make it really nice and cosy and welcoming, using some of the stuff of my old house, and had some friends over, but I was not quite sure yet if it was good enough yet to keep them wanting to be there..
    > getting towards it possibly, and feeling more hopeful in the dream to make it nice…
    >
    > M

  213. Margaret says:

    > Otto,
    > I really like what you did for that poor mouse.
    > if it were up to me I’d provide you with loads of good karma for it.
    > poor other mouse with its eye glued to the floor, that is really horrible.
    > now current mouse and rat poison is so strong that it would also kill a cat eating a mouse who has ingested the poison.
    > it should be banned.
    > also those microplastics should be banned, and to start with it should be obligatory to put in giant letters on packages they contain microplastics which are contaminating the whole environment, so we could stop buying those products.
    > at some point mankind may start to eradicate itself and as our planet is pretty resilient it might be able to restore itself starting off again from some patches of saved biotopes..
    > in any case roaches will be among the last survivors, together with gingko trees as those seem to even have survived the Hiroshima bombings..
    >
    > we can only try to be as responsible as possible in our daily lifes, support environment and animal rights organizations and be careful with whom we vote for.
    > and hope the growing awareness will be in time to save those precious creatures that have a hard time surviving in the wild today.
    > M

  214. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > that is too bad!!
    > sorry about your Jimbo and sorry about your rib. have hurt mine two years ago and remember it hurt badly and was not even broken.
    > but on the other hand it would have been much worse if you had broken a hip…
    >
    > have sprained my knee around the same time as hurting my ribs, just a few weeks in-between, also by accidentally stepping off a high curb, and that was very disabling for a while, could hardly walk at first, and had to use a support cane for the next several weeks which sucked.
    > take good care, M

    • Margaret: Thanks for the message. and I know others will think of me, even if they don’t write. I feel that is the real power of this blog, and as I am always saying “I love blogging” … don’t ask me why … cos I don’t know other than just enjoying it (if that’s the right word),

  215. Margaret says:

    > well, Donald Duck is certainly a step higher on the social ladder..
    >
    > my cats, twin brothers, same patched colours, one cat big, the other a bit smaller, are so adorable.
    > after being fed we spent some leisure time on the bed, me reading an audio book and occasionally studying a bit, rainly afternoon, the cats coming for some delightful petting, and purring away, bellies full, and at some point the big brother went to join his smaller brother on the end of the bed, still purring away after being petted extensively, which he loves, and put himself in the spoon position with his smaller brother, and put a big paw over him, so cute and uplifting.
    > it was great to caress their furs in one go, both of them, and feel their duet of purring vibrating under my hand.
    > and then they curl up with visible pleasure to make it even better, ha, very pleasurable for the three of us.
    > just tried to make some pictures of them, not sure they came out well, a lot of white fur with some dark patches on a lightcoloured sheet, if one of the pictures is ok will try to post it if ever I find out how to get them from my phone onto my laptop and if I can find out how to label them to keep them apart..
    > so it may take a while, a few months or so, or hopefully weeks…
    >
    > sorry, this might only interest part of the readers, but it brightened up my rainly afternoon..
    > M
    >

  216. Leslie says:

    Otto – thought you & others too would like this song 🙂 I may have posted it long ago or Larry could have. Anyway, it is called “Sleeping Sickness” by Dallas Green who goes by City and Colour – get it, Dallas Green.
    I think it deserves repeating, and I also want to post it as a tribute to our Cdn. music icon Gord Downie from the group The Tragically Hip – who shares singing the song/video. Sadly, he is facing the end of his life due to brain cancer.
    L

  217. Larry says:

    Thanks for posting that song, Leslie. I can hear it more and it means more this time. Sad.

  218. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > a bit of a late reaction, but it was interesting to read you post about the recurrent feeling of being stuck.
    > good you could feel some of it with Barry, I hope to hear some more about it when we get the chance to talk.
    > am a bit jealous in fact, almost, the birth related stuff seems so hard to get into unless in dreams or just initial stages of the feeling, while it seems logic that wehn we reexperience something like that the impact on our present must be important..
    > M

  219. Margaret says:

    > just heard in a new system that in the Netherlands they are using sea eagles to catch drones that come too close to airports or planes.
    > I was already worrying about those poor eagles claws being hurt, with the propellers, but they then added the eagles sight is so good they manage to catch them without hurting themselves, as they distinguish the separate propellers even at high velocity.
    > that is pretty amazing.
    > when they catch a drome they get a good chunk of fresh meat…
    > kind of reasssuring in this case nature wins..
    > M

  220. “If a lion is chasing you, you don’t sit down and have a good cry. YOU RUN! Later, back at the cave with your loving family, you tell them about the lion and then you have a good cry! Storage of pain implies retrieval. Why store pain (or anything) if not because it has value ? We store pain (trauma) because it is either too big to experience and/or it is not yet safe to feel or process a particular experience.”
    Well, that’s a good one for a memorial day. I was thinking as I re-read this, that the caveman (me), back from his close call with the lion, was sitting, huffing and puffing, back in the cave, and as he was about to reach out to his mom with arms outstretched and a tear in his eye, his mother was saying to him “Not now, cavey. Later, later.” As she continued to pull ticks off of her husband’s pelt. LATER LATER, story of my life.
    “As Jack clearly states there is a “cure” for neurosis i.e.: waiting until it is safe and finally saying ouch!” My definition of religion, or at least Christian religion, “Later, later. Keep pickin that cotton. Keep marching forward towards those guys with spears. God is with you. Don’t forget to say Ouch as your last breath”.
    It is meaningless for me to write what I just wrote, and I don’t give a damn. I am just sitting home on a memorial day and I would rather be at work. The back yard has reached city-involvement level, and I don’t feel shit like cleaning it, nor the 10 million other chores I need to do.
    Another 2 thoughts: what role did migration have to do with monkeys becoming humans? Do other monkeys migrate? Also I experienced a 2-second whumpf (cant think of a good word) of strangeness while walking at the park. Strangeness wasn’t the word either, but I forget what it was. It was like a QUICK-FLASH peering into another universe. Possibly like the too-big-to-process happenstance of me being strangely and violently torn from my mom in a moment and dropped off to a new strange lifestyle with crazy uncle and aunt at 10 months old. Or maybe I should stop watching tv and movies especially ones like the fantastic four or xmen with ridiculous blue-light-framed other-world openings. I don’t know what the trigger for this “strange” feeling was; a particular piece of light or weather/ heat or what, at that exact point near the lake, maybe the fact that there were less people walking around the lake today at 730am, and there was no chance that I was going to see my mom (you know what I mean, I know she is dead, I mean it is just that the hope still lingers in my baby brain). Anyway, I just kept moving on around the lake. “You had the laugh on me, so I set you free And I’m movin’ on.” One of my favorites w/emmylou. Or Tom Petty version lastdancewithmaryjane “I was introduced and we both started grooving. She said, “I dig you baby, but I got to keep movin’……. On. Keep movin’ on”” beautiful musical rhyming/phrasing or whatever the fucking term is, how he waits to say ON so that moving rhymes with grooving.
    “RUN FORREST RUN!” Ok just babbling for myself, don’t want to rake pine needles, wish I could drink or smoke dope or go to work to escape the pain. Can’t listen to music and cry since Z is here and kid is not, so if I make any movements to do something for myself, there will be stoppage of that very quickly. Ha! Always acting out or whatever the term could be. Actually, 40 years of living like this, and that is how it has been for 40 years. The real sad thing about that Tom Petty lyric is “we both started groovin’” well, that has been a long fucking time that that has happened to me. Too fucking long. Well, not true, my buddy at work we start grooving talking and joking about our bosses and other co-workers, but it doesn’t last very long. And there is no flirty stuff there that would really give me reason to live. I don’t want to see him get up on a chair, leaving his hat on…

  221. I am going to take a chance and say something stupid. to anybody. one way to get closer to birth feelings is to go down to the hospital maternity ward and just listen. or if you can find something on youtube with birth noises that someone was stupid enough to upload to the whole world. or go hang out at the park and listen to kid noises. Maybe sound is not one of your good triggers. go through the trash at that park and find a poopy diaper and take it home. HAHAHA! Actually back to the maternity ward, there are plenty of smells there to reignite memories, or just buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol and take a whiff. ahh you guys know the drill. just dont want to rake those fucking pine needles yet. what did i say. z came in my room without knocking to tell me about an extension cord that she finally noticed after it has been in plain sight for 2 years. don’t get me wrong. i feel bad for her for living with such a creepy shitty asshole (me).

  222. thanks leslie. tragically hip is looking good for a listen. got a beat. like devo on a lesser dosage of steroids maybe? lots of energy

  223. i was about to expect, like on the many sirius music channels, it starts to sound a little good, and then i say, oh this is just shit, but this keeps growing on me, good or great progressions, beat and melody, nice video, blow at high dough, sends chills down or is it up, my spine.

  224. that mother fucker has SOULLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!

  225. Sorry got carried away. here is some irish guy saying something in a beautiful accent

  226. well that did not come out right. I meant Colin Farrell On “The Lobster”: Cannes Film Festival 2015 you would have to look that up on youtube.

    • Otto: It seems to me that you are doing that thing that came up in the early seventies with that guy who lived in Santa Maria of the Angels; somewhere in the Useless state of the Planet earth. If you are close to that ‘nick of the woods’ you might want to wonder round there and see if he’s still around 🙂 🙂 .

      You seem to me to be so undefended and I see a great deal of progress since I first started to read you. Keep blogging Otto, I love reading your stuff.

      Jack

  227. swisslady says:

    David, your therapy is really working for you, and you seem to be able to connect current feelings with past events really well. I noted what you said about “feeling about all the things that I loved and cared about as a child that I couldn’t share with my parents, that I had to keep hidden, because I felt I had to cut myself off from them as self protection.” That is so sad having to hide things you loved! Sharing the things we love with others is what connects us, and builds trust I think. For me there is so much more in it though, like you had somethings you loved as a child. I didn’t think I had anything and I can’t remember having to hide anything from them, because I didn’t have anything except, of course, my pain. I had to hide my pain and my fear from them, I was not allowed to show either. There is something really sad about that. Not remembering anything I liked might also tie in with my feeling “brain amputated” as I call it. I don’t remember much when I’m in the fear feelings, especially surrounding sexual abuse. I can’t think clearly. Can’t form words or sentences in my head, a bit of that is going on right now. I’m not making much sense, I’m sure.

    I used to dream about big spiders in connection with fear. You stomping on a spider in your dream shows progress, imo, you are not afraid to take some action to protect yourself. I admire your courage in real life to face your feeling day after day, consciously going into it as you wrote about, when you went up to your room.

    I was in small group yesterday and after a long time of listening to and interacting with the other group members, I started to withdraw into my space. I knew I should talk about my abuse, but as the accompanying feeling goes: couldn’t find the right words, wouldn’t know where to start, can’t make sense of it. After a long time sitting and shaking with fear – I just allowed my body to take over – I was called out and like a spell was broken, I responded to the question the group had discussed while I was in ‘my space’. Only after that I was able to talk a bit about the fear surrounding the abuse. I left the institute with a sick feeling in my stomach, then at home asked my husband to sit with me, and while I was clinging to his arm, started convulsing and gagging. I didn’t have any visual memories of the event, just let my body go through the motions and acknowledged the disgust and repulsion and nausea that came with it. I find it very difficult to keep going with this, but I think it is the only way I know how to approach it. I hope that with ‘going with my body’ will take me closer to recovering the memory.

    You gave me some things to think about, especially about the “things you loved” that you had to hide from your parents for self protection. I really can’t remember at the moment whether I had anything I loved that I had to hide, but the thought isn’t letting me go. All I can say is that I had to hide any needs that I might have had, of wanting to be close, or hugged, which never happened.

    I remember once in first grade, my teacher encouraged us kids to give our mothers some flowers on mother’s day along with the art project that we had cut and glued together. So on that Sunday morning I got up and sneaked out of the house and went down to the meadow and plucked a beautiful bunch of wild flowers, (I even put a lot of thought into it, making sure to take at least one of each flower of the many kinds there were), sneaked into the living room, got a vase out of the sideboard, sneaked into the parents’ bedroom and put the flowers on her nightstand along with the gift. I wanted to surprise her. Then I sat on the stairs outside the room waiting for her to come from the kitchen back into her bedroom. She yelled out with joy when she saw the flowers, surprised and obviously very pleased, came running out of the room and asked ‘who gave me flowers’ and as I was sitting there right outside, I said, I did, and she was again surprised, but not in a good way, more like she didn’t expect something this thoughtful of me, and maybe even had hoped to have received the flowers from someone else, but she said, how nice and how lovely, and how much joy the flowers gave her, even called out some of their names and said how much she loves wildflowers, but that was it. I remember distinctly, this would have been the perfect time for her to scoop me up and give me a big hug. But that didn’t happen. She walked away and let me sit there on the stairs. She touched my cheek in an affectionate way as she walked away, yes, I do remember that, but it didn’t seem enough. I was very hurt and retreated upstairs to my bedroom, where I wept quietly into my pillow.

    I learned from that experience to never expect any physical affection from my mother. She was just not the type of cuddly mother that I wished in my naive, childish mind I should have had. Sad! Maybe even more than not to expect affection, I also learned that whatever I wanted/needed was too much. The interesting thing is that I knew what would have been the right thing: a hug would have been the right expression of affection at that moment. Why I knew that I have no idea. It must be an instinctual thing…

    • Phil says:

      Bernadette,
      Your story of collecting flowers for your mother and her reaction is very telling and so sad. Any normal mother would have given you a big hug.
      Phil

      • swisslady says:

        Phil, thanks, yes I agree, very sad. My mother was a good mother in many ways, and a bad mother in other ways. When it came to showing affection, she was completely incapable. She was not cold but couldn’t reach out. She liked to cuddle babies, but she didn’t hug us children when we were older. Very, very sad!

    • Larry says:

      I’m touched and disturbed by the neglect and abuse of the little girl that you were, Bernadette, when all you needed and should have gotten was a hug and some love. Thanks for sharing. I hope this blog helps you.

      • swisslady says:

        Larry, yes, it could have been a lot easier with a bit of love and affection! Thanks for your words. The blog helps me – Gretchen encouraged me to keep writing. It would be much easier to go into hiding again. Not this time! 🙂

  228. swisslady says:

    David, to your question, whether I find myself saying anything to my perpetrators: no, I don’t remember saying anything, and I don’t have any words in my head when I go through the convulsions and gagging. I’m in shock. I don’t see myself having even a reaction to my defense, like trying to stop it, etc. I’m totally overwhelmed with the physical side of the assault. The fear is paralyzing. Thanks for asking. Maybe words will come later, as I keep peeling away the layers. And as I keep getting stronger mentally.
    –Bernadette

  229. swisslady says:

    Honesty, trying to remember puts me into such a state – brain amputated – that I’m staring at my name on the screen and I’m not even sure that I have spelled my name correctly!
    –Bernadette

  230. swisslady says:

    David, I was encouraged by your question to explore whether there would be any words associated with the oral incident. I lay down, again with a sick feeling in my stomach. A scene came to mind, when I was about three years old (therefore about the same time as the oral assault), we had a bunch of relatives visiting our house for a family event. I remember walking around the legs of many people, as I was so small, all I could see was their legs. At one point, my uncle, who was sitting on the couch, asked me if I wanted to sit on his knee. I did, and he played a game where his knees became the horse and I was the rider on the horse being bounced up and down. A children’s rhyme went along with it. Innocent enough. But then he asked me to stick my hand into his pant pocket where I would find something, so he said. He made it sound like a game and I was curious to find out what was in there. I did indeed find something hard in there and he said to squeeze it. At that point I must have felt instinctively alerted in some odd way and wanted to leave, and my mother also noticed me and snatched me away from him. Fucking pervert! I don’t know what happened next in the scene.

    Sickened by the memory, I listened more. Words like ‘sucking’ and ‘lollipop’ came to mind in my native language, of course. Yet another childish game to entice an innocent little girl. I’m so disgusted! The truth is, my uncle could very easily have had access to the pantry where the incident took place. With all the visitors in the house, nobody would have noticed and nobody would have missed me for a while.

    I don’t want to jump to any conclusions yet as far as the perpetrator goes. But it kind of collaborates with my instincts that keep telling me that my father wouldn’t do something awful like this. It just is not like him. But this could also be complete denial on my part. Another clue as far as my uncle goes: I never liked him growing up. Even when I saw him the last time several years ago, shortly before his death, I didn’t like him then and I had a sense that I couldn’t trust him. There was something slimy about him. His youngest daughter, my cousin, who was my age and went to primary school with me, died of oral cancer four years ago.

    I will keep on feeling my way through this until I arrive at the truth.
    –Bernadette

  231. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > that is a heartbreaking story.
    >
    > although my own mom seems on some level much more functionable than yours, she is also a mix of good and crazy..
    >
    > the hard thing with that is it is very hard to even get angry, in my case it feels almost taboo, and all that remains is hopeless sadness.
    > with anger it seems some hope is left to change them, without …..

    • swisslady says:

      Margaret, my mother was highly functional on a practical level but totally inadequate in the emotional department. She took care of the house and garden, cooked, made clothes for us, she was always busy all day long. Growing up, I sometimes had a sense that she was overwhelmed and I needed to help her. I felt sorry for her at times, when the other kids didn’t obey or were rambunctious and she wouldn’t be able to control them. I think that was during the time when my dad was at the hospital and convalescent home. She was overwhelmed but still took care of everything. She didn’t have to control me; I was already conditioned by then to be “the good girl.”

      However, she was not able to be there for me on an emotional level. I don’t remember being hugged or caressed or cuddled or comforted. To the contrary, once I had a small accident playing outside and ran screaming to her for some comfort. Instead of hugging and comforting me, she got angry with me and slapped me. I guess that was her way of expressing concern. Totally insane, I’m sure.

      I learned to rely on myself, and worse, I started to hide my pain and my need for comfort. Being vulnerable and needy didn’t cut it for me. When I was a bit older, I didn’t tell anybody when I got hurt. I knew I would be blamed for it.

      These days I am allowing myself to look at the ‘lonely’and ‘vulnerable’ feelings in connection with the sexual abuse that I experienced. I was not able to ask for help at the time. I was pretty much left to myself to cope with it.

      I learned already during birth that getting angry doesn’t get me anywhere. Only into a tighter spot from where there is no escape. This laid down my modus operandi: I always push it to the last, until I end up hopeless and powerless. In the meantime, I learned to function on a more efficient level and ask for help when I need it – mostly 🙂
      –Bernadette

  232. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > thanks for sharing .
    >
    > it sounds like a very hard way to grow up, so lonely..
    >
    > my mom could cuddle, but at some point I somehow felt I had to keep her at a distance, as her own need was too big, she would ‘swallow me alive’ if I’d allow it..
    > in several senses, invading my mind and soul, and using me for physical comfort as well..
    > it is sad to feel it is necessary to keep what I crave most at bay, but we have come a long way and I have been able to hold and rock her and whisper to her when she was crying hard, being told in the hospital she had to let go of her car last summer.
    > that felt natural and right.
    > I also feel I can express my anger better if it comes to a point where she drives me and my brother crazy with, after a whole afternoon of taking care of her in all ways, she then starts complaining angrily about ‘they’ have taken everything away from her, meaning her car, and when we go into it blaming us, while at the same time denying it.
    > then eventually she gives in to us saying she should look at all she still has, all the care she gets, and that it was not our decision to prohibit her from driving.
    > it is painful when we go through so much trouble to make her life ok and allwo her to stay comfortably in her house for as long as possible, and then when we are already getting exhausted she starts complaining..
    >
    > rationally it is understandable, but it seems part of a pattern of being a bottomless pit wanting attention and more attention..
    >
    > she can be very supportive at times, and an enormous pain in the .. at other times.
    > and her combination of need and dominance and manipulation makes me want to keep a relatively safe emotional distance, while at the same time needing to feel comforted and supported and loved by her..
    >
    > sigh.
    >
    > after a short nap this afternoon, I wake up feeling suddenly so overwhelmed with awareness of how lonely my life is, so few people to turn to, they seem to be diminishing bit by bit and that is scary..
    > it is partly me feeling so tired of fighting to make my life better.
    > the visual disability makes everything so hard and I feel tired and sad.
    > M

  233. Margaret says:

    > despite what I wrote, I notice how now I do feel cheered up after a nice call to my mother.
    > as her medication is now down to only a quart of a tablet she seems better in having a conversation, despite repeating herself, and she is still cheerful enough, and that makes me feel good.
    > she also repeatedly asked about me, and I answer her with only a slightly censored version, let her know I occasionally feel a bit bored and alone, but in a very non-dramatic way, and it feels ok.
    > she still has the capacity seemingly of making me feel less alone, which again stirs some sad feeling of having to lose her at some point, and only being able to get part of what I really need.
    > but I guess I am lucky compared to some others, I do remember good stuff, a lot of good stuff beside the bad stuff..
    > M

  234. Last night I was dreaming and suddenly at the end of the dream I saw the face of some guy with a very pudgy face and the face came towards me and I screamed. The scream woke me and I was still screaming. Then I realized it was just a dream. I was totally unable to make any sense out of it, and have no recollection of who it was, and other than being scared cannot make any sense of it.

    I told Jim about it this morning and he said he heard me scream. Normally I don’t like to have my feelings in his presence as it starts us off on some spiral. Just liker my dad it was always a bigger problem to him that I had a problem. I have asked Jimbo to discuss this with me, but he adamantly refuses … so I leave it at that.

    I do notice that I am more able to not question him about things that I I would have done very differently. In the past I would always question it. Now I’m more able to sit back and let him do his own thing. He always insists on doing the driving and takes the most inexplicable routes. In the past I would always ask why he was going that way, or where were we going. I now feel easier to just let it happen.

    Maybe that’s one of the ‘hall maarks’ of getting old. Highly likely.

    Jack

    • swisslady says:

      Jack, “Maybe that’s one of the ‘hall maarks’ of getting old” – maybe. Or maybe – and this is probably stating the obvious – you don’t have to be in control every step of the way any longer. To “just let it happen” is opening you up for some other feelings to flood in. The dream you had might be an indication of that. The pudgy face scared the sh*t out of you… an avenue to be explored.
      –Bee

  235. swisslady says:

    Margaret, I hear you. I experienced a bit of that dichotomy with my mother when I moved back to Switzerland in 2010-11 in order to be closer to my parents in their old age. I lived five minutes from their house. One day she would complain that I “never” visit her, the next day she would say “You don’t have to come EVERY day!” It’s just never right, argh. But I sensed that it all had to do with her slowly losing control over her life, her life getting smaller and narrower by the minute – how terrifying that must have been. I can see a similar dynamic going on for your mother, having to give up her car, possibly moving to a care home soon, etc.

    You seem to have come to a relatively good place with your mother. The fact that you were “able to hold and rock her and whisper to her when she was crying hard” – I think that’s beautiful. I could never have done that, she wouldn’t let me. The closest I got to her was holding her hand, or hugging her when I arrived or left. I just did that, and she seemed to like it…for a few seconds  You also seem to have found a good balance between having some needs met on one side, and keeping your emotional distance on the other side.

    I would say you are lucky to have been hugged and cuddled. Better be smothered than neglected? Hmmm…. what a thought. I guess the answer is neither! In spite of the imperfections in my care taking, I always still needed my mother, still do now, after she’s been dead for over three years. I miss her terribly, especially when I feel lonely.

    I felt so bad for her in the very end. After the stroke, she was not able to stay in the house and had to stay at a care home. She hated being dependent and in the end was pretty angry about that. The way they (the care home people) solved ‘the problem’ was by over medicating her to keep her quiet and manageable. I totally hated that and felt quite powerless over it! I wish I could have done more for her in the end 😦
    — Bernadette

  236. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > it touched me you said something positive about me holding my mom in the hospital.
    > that shows me to which degree I tend to be hard on myself and blame myself for not being ‘a good daughter’, for not ‘loving’ enough, which was a big big guilt trip of mine at a very young age.
    >
    > today she was funny, we were talking about the bad weather, rain and clouds for days in a row, and she said people kept mentioning that to her but she does not mind as she does not remember it.
    > I lauged and said it did have its good sides then, and she lauged as well and that was a very nice moment really.
    > I always loved to hear her sing and play the piano, and loved and still love it when she is cheerful.
    > that was probably one of her best qualities, to turn simple things in something special, a trip to go swim with a befriended family with kids in a nearby creek, taking bread with chocolate spread along and the whole afternoon became a festivity.
    >
    > or playing board games on a holiday or an otherwise boring evening, or baking a cake together or putting something together with paper and glue or just a walk and her showing us all kind of plants and birds or telling fairy tales which made me expect to see wolves or other exciting creatures behind every tree…
    >
    > she was raped as a young teenager and she also mentioned how suddenly the whole world felt ugly, nothing right anymore, and then she made a conscious decision on the spot not to let it take her childhood away, she told me.
    >
    > that explains a lot of the childish features she still has on this day, which sometimes drive us crazy and frustrate me, but on the other hand probably saved her and form her strength as well.
    >
    > she was my goddess when I was a young child, until I started feeling I neded to protect myself.
    >
    > M

  237. Daniel says:

    Margaret and Phil,
    My point was that it seems we need two separate – but related – conceptual systems. The first, to think about mental contents that can be symbolized. They can be symbolized because they were experienced and through that experience became mental contents that can be stored, retrieved, re-experienced and remembered. For example, if I suffer shame at the hands of a parent but for some reason or other repress that experience because it’s too painful, then that shame, intact, will be there for re-experiencing after repression is undone. A Primal is a full way of undoing such a repression and liberating the shame from the hands of repression.

    The second is composed of other types of happenings in early infancy. These are things that happened but never experienced, never became mental contents that can be stored for retrieval. These cannot be retrieved in the usual fashion, primaled and then remembered, because they are not there yet. These need to be experienced for the first time(!) so they can be made mental contents.

    However, I do suspect they can be abreacted as a need to evacuate the intolerable sensations. And since they are still to be created (by experience) they cannot be at the present time connected to anything and therefore remain an endeavor to empty out something rather that fully experience something (a genuine primal). By the way, I hope it’s clear that by “abreaction” I mean in the widest sense, not the faking that comes with wanting to please (even though true evacuation can hitchhike with wanting to please, use it so to speak for its own purposes).

    I agree that dreams can deal with that place in the mind, take us to the breakdown that happened but never experienced. But it’s not only in dreams.

    Now, the important question is: if all this is true, how do we treat it? How do we help another person experience something that happened but never experienced (rather than aiding in liberating something that was experienced but repressed and lived on in symbolized ways)?

    • sylvia says:

      Daniel, I am not quite following you. I thought traumas come up like spring-loaded plates at a cafeteria. When you are ready for the next feeling it is there, triggered wanting to be felt. When enough of childhood is relived then baby stuff will appear if there was overwhelming feelings; lack of touch, scared and left alone to cry, no reassurances of cuddling–all these things are experienced by the baby and she tries to shut it down or respond to it with rapid heart beat, hyper-secretions, screaming, colic.

      I think patients do experience these things in primals. I think that is the feeling I’ve had of ungodly loneliness. Patients do cough and lose their breath in primals as a memory of choking and lack of air during birth. The trauma was experienced at the time but hopefully was shut off with the baby defending as best it could.
      S

      • Phil says:

        Sylvia,
        I am in agreement with what you say here. Maybe neuroscience can’t quite account for how it happens, but it seems to me, as Janov says, the traumas are all stored there somehow waiting to be felt. The problem is that it is difficult getting to it all and
        also, in the mean time, we have our lives to live.
        Phil

      • swisslady says:

        Silvia, great response!
        –Bernadette

        • Sylvia says:

          Thank you Bernadette. And I agree with you about the baby experiences things on a different and physical level. You make good sense too.
          Phil, I think you are right that we need to stay functioning on a daily level, working and family obligations. We almost need a vacation to feel the hard stuff or little responsibility. And the point is to have a better now where we live having felt the bad stuff.
          S

    • Daniel: I see it a little differently than I read you. Janov’s discovery was: the phenomenon of RE-LIVING (not remembering) of an event that had been repressed, suppressed, amnesia-ted against, blocked off, shoved into another part of the brain, split from consciousnesses ,into the subconscious or unconscious, and thence had no access to ones conscienceless there-in-afterwards.

      Why I feel it was a major discovery, is not that it might never have happened before to many down histoy, BUT that suddenly a psycholist with a PhD in neuro sciene, was able to delimniate it. AND … IMO make it very clear … AND define it and create a psychological theory around it … out of it; that I feel has not yet been bettered.

      Jack

  238. Phil says:

    Daniel, You said:
    “The second is composed of other types of happenings in early infancy. These are things that happened but never experienced, never became mental contents” and
    “Now, the important question is: if all this is true, how do we treat it? How do we help another
    person experience something that happened but never experienced (rather than aiding in liberating something that was experienced but repressed and lived on in symbolized ways?”

    Just a quick reaction to this; what strikes me is how would we even know what is there that happened but not experienced by the person in infancy? It sounds like guess work.
    When somebody primals something and liberates repressed material, that’s how it becomes known to the person. I can theorize that I have birth trauma or even prenatal trauma (my mother was ill), but I could be wrong, maybe it wasn’t traumatic. So, I’m not quite seeing what you are saying. Also, if something happened and wasn’t experienced by the person and stored as a trauma, are we even sure that it needs to be treated?
    Phil

  239. swisslady says:

    Margaret, you ARE a good daughter! I have been reading your posts and know about your struggles. It is hard to make tough decisions on behalf of an elderly mother. But what I see is, all you want to do is keep her safe. In all that you say and do, I see that you love her very much and you are concerned about her well-being. I would hate to see you being hard on yourself. It doesn’t matter that you get angry or frustrated at times; it’s human – and healthy, I would add. Having to take care of your mother to a certain extent must be even harder for you because of your disability. I honestly don’t know how you do it; I think you’re amazing.

    It sounds like you had a lovely day with her today. She had a lot to give throughout your life – something to be grateful for. And I can understand why it would be hard to be angry at her sometimes.
    –Bernadette

  240. swisslady says:

    Daniel, Phil, my apologies for budging in but I couldn’t help having a gut reaction to your words, Daniel: “The second is composed of other types of happenings in early infancy. These are things that happened but never experienced, never became mental contents that can be stored for retrieval.” In particular, I disagree with the expression “things that happened but never experienced” –
    I think that all things that happened to us were experienced. We might not have experienced them on a conscious level, or on a level where we put images or words to it, but nevertheless, we experienced them. We experienced them on a subconscious level, maybe a physical level, or a cellular level. Imo, nothing happens to us that we don’t experience on one level or another. In other words, just because they never “became mental contents” doesn’t mean they were not experienced. Also, we have to be careful as not to see ourselves as only mental beings. We experience things on a mental, physical, and spiritual level. Spiritual meaning as in “my spirit was broken” for example. Along the same line of thinking, something experienced on a physical or spiritual level has as much meaning or impact as something experienced on a mental level. I believe trauma can be experienced and stored on all or any of these levels. That’s all imo, of course.
    –Bernadette

  241. Nothing wrong with your question Guru but I just wanted to say that people don’t have to give out personal information on the blog if they would prefer not to. I know some people like as much privacy as possible here. Gretch

    • Gretchen: So you’re saying my question is much more innocuous than the time when Jack said my name hundreds of times on the blog even though he was asked repeatedly to stop doing so? I remember your having to spend hours and hours trying to rectify that out-of-control situation, yeah….

      • Guru: Let’s get the FACTS straight. There was an occasion when (according to you) you accidentally used your first name on the blog. SOOOOOO!!!! I responded by repeating your first name … since I felt that now EVERYONE that was currently on the bog now knew your first name.

        You did indeed ask me to stop, but since I felt it was now ‘open sesame’ I could in no way be accused of revealing a factor of YOUR privacy. (Incidentally the most “public” aspect for all of us is our first name). I did continue to use your first name for a further 5 or 6 time (which I don’t remotely consider to be “hundreds”).

        Gretchen did ask me not to … suggesting that it was beneath me. Since I had already done so I felt that it was NOT beneath me. She may have repeated her request one more time and then from-there-on-in I reverted to use part of your pseudonym (Guru).

        The question that always arises for me for anyone using a pseudonym is:- what are they trying to hide? If one was hiding from Interpol it would make sense to me, BUT on a feeling blog I have reservations.

        Jack

        • Jack: I am not going to spend endless time and energy struggling to untangle your manipulatively self-serving historical revisionism. It’s just not worth it for me at all. Good day to you, sir.

          • Patrick says:

            Guru – I wish I could always take that approach. Guy is a ‘fossil’ everything he says and does is ‘fossilized’ he discusses stuff that happened 20 years ago as if it was still the only reality.(and of course it’s only his ‘version’) NOTHING EVER CHANGES in this dude’s world. No wonder he has adopted ‘primal’ as his philosophy as he thinks it supports his FOSSILIZED view on reality. Another of those ironies primal is SUPPOSED to be about ‘change’ in REALITY it seems to be about NEVER changing anything esp your ‘mind’ Keep pounding on that same old drum.

            • Patrick says:

              Of course it’s sort of inevitable that primal inhibits ‘change’ as at least the way it is used by a lot of people is as an ‘intolerant belief system’ Janov himself said in the Primal Revolution if I remember correctly that it was ‘intolerant’ but as he thought of it it was ‘intolerant of untruths’. Weill maybe so at the time but over time it has just become plain ‘intolerant’ and with Fossil Man (replacing PR man for the moment) at the Head of the Class not a good direction at all imo.

            • Quote: “he discusses stuff that happened 20 years ago as if it was still the only reality.(and of course it’s only his ‘version’)”

              I and many others on this blog, discuss stuff that happened many decades ago. THAT IS THE VERY PURPOSE OF PRIMAL THERAPY, since you seemingly never caught on. It’s NOT about forgetting … quite the reverse … it’s about re-living it … being brought back into full consciousness, ones past, such that we can now stop all that acting it out … and make real change in the present.

              I suspect, like Guru, you hate your behaviors of the past being put back to you. You’d rather ‘shade’ it in a manner to make you sound good, brilliant, above it all, sort of superior. Guru would like us all to know he’s of a noble birth (whatever the fuck that supposed to mean). And you are seemingly wanting desperately to let us know that the Irish were so badly treated by the British … which they were IMO.

              Of course my version of the past is my version, but if it was inaccurate I would have thought Guru would have liked to correct my version with his …. BUT he does not go there. Instead calls me “Sir” I wish to remind everyone, I was never knighted … and come to think of it, would not wish that upon myself. I’ll leave that Paul McCartney.

              As I feel most can see, I’m having fun with all this.

              Jack

          • Guru: Of course you won’t. That’s always been your modus operandi when I put out there what actually took place … AFTER you hoped you could get away with a glib remark, hoping it would make me look bad to poor little you.

            Try using the blog for what it was really meant to be used for to talk about your feelings. It is after all a feeling blog. I doubt you will.

            Jack

  242. Well yes your question would be innocuous vs someone saying your name without permission on the blog. Gretch

  243. swisslady says:

    Guru, yes I do mind. I don’t think your question is innocuous, and I don’t have to reveal my familial relations on the blog. I refer you to your own eloquent words from August /2010 here on the blog when I inquired about your identity: “I’d rather not go into personal details about myself in the public arena.”
    –Bernadette

    • Bernadette: It may come as a surprise to you, but I was actually asking you that question for a very innocent reason. The response I am receiving here has turned out to be a tremendous surprise for me, to say the least. I won’t go into further details as to why my question was an innocent one to ensure maximum protection for all parties involved (both on and off the blog).

      Contrary to Gretchen’s assessment, you said that my question was not an innocuous one. It easily gives off the impression that I was asking the question for nefarious reasons when that is truly not the case.

      Pursuant to this, I would ask you in all fairness to myself that I did not accuse your question of being a non-innocuous one when you asked about my identity in 2010? In other words, I didn’t badger the core intentions of your question as being “non-innocuous” when you asked me back then?

      Other than that modest fairness issue, I will be more than happy to let this matter go (wipes brow, whew!).

  244. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > I am not sure whether I can agree on the difference you make between the two .
    > if one difference I can think of it would be merely preverbal and occurred in the verbal stage, but still ..
    >
    > I think we have experienced everything, that there is no such thing as unexperienced stuff, and if there would be like if we did completely shut our awareness off at some point beyond that it gets probably unretrievable anyway, but that is if we mentally passed out so to say.
    >
    > all the rest feel to me like belonging to some kind of continuum, as even feelings we can label and get into by talking, have an aspect that was not allowed into consciousness so far, until explored in a primal context.
    > meanings to me usually only become clear when the feeling breaks open, not the other way around.
    >
    > the process seems similar is what I mean, whether it is concerning a very early preverbal baby feeling or a feeling going back to later childhood.
    > the latter being more of a mental construction but also containing a basic set of feeling.
    >
    > it gets more complicated and also deeper when growing up, adult pain is painfuller than younger pain, in my experience, although equally painful if that makes sense.
    >
    > the access to both can happen in the same way though.
    >
    > yesterday evening I was laying in bed thinking about being in group next summer, and also thinking about this time of the year last year, when I felt devastated by the combination of having had my beloved cat euthanized while holding her on my lap, and feeling very hurt by someone I turned to for support.
    >
    > I considered the question if I would want to adress this in group, and felt I did not want to feel more hurt by being put in a position where I would feel like having to defend the way I felt, and felt it would be useless to adress the stuff about the person, but the moment I pictured adressing Gretchen, who witnessed my pain in phone sessions last year, and when I imagined myself saying I felt so bad still about the cat, I instantly broke into tears, and started wailing, despite of being aware the neighbours would probably hear some of it.
    >
    > very soon the wails became younger and younger, until they were those of a tiny baby, like just born, and I knew if a neighobour would hear this, they would certainly not think it was me, but they would think I had a small baby with me.
    >
    > it felt good to let it happen,and what I said earlier on applies to these early feelings not going as deep in the brain as adult feelings, they seem to use only part of it, which makes sense as our brain had not fully developed at that age.
    >
    > it struck me that after the feeling I felt more composed, that word came to me then, more ‘adult’..
    >
    > so where is the difference in this case, getting into the feeling by the ‘symbolized’thought about my cat but then moving straight into early baby wailing?
    > it was actually mixed into the feelings about the cat for a while..
    > have still to read the rest of this mornings 17 comments, but wanted to write this down before getting the rest of the input which might distract me.
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, it sounds like you really have access to those early baby feelings.
      I find it helpful too, to ‘rehearse’ what I’m going to tell a friend about a big feeling and before I know it I’m already in it. Some times feelings won’t wait, and simply imagining what you are going to say to a sympathetic person (as you imagined with Gretchen) can bring on the whole scenario of feeling. That’s something isn’t it.
      S

  245. Margaret says:

    > just ran into a striking example used in my textbook of evolutionary psychology.
    > it does not matter here what it was an example for, just struck me as unexpected.
    >
    > at some point in the past, The Maori spread out to another island, and the people living there became known as the oops, forgot, the Merori or something similar.
    >
    > point is they used to have a well established habit of agriculture originally, the Maori still on the original home ground had so much abundance of food thanks to their agriculture, they could afford to have soldiers and politicians etc.
    >
    > now the Merori happened to have arrived on a much colder island, where the seeds they had brought would not sprout, but there was plenty of food in the form of fish and selas and birds and edible plants, so they became hunter gatherers again and thrived as well.
    > but as they found out they could not reproduce above a certain number or the food supplies would get too scarce to feed everyone, they installed a form of birth control, a bit of a drastic form, by castrating part of their male offspring, together with a few other rules.
    >
    > as they had no soldiers etc. they got invaded and taken over at the first time their Maori ancestors ventured again to the island.
    > they had also a rule about only hunting older male seals, as to preserve the seal population.
    >

  246. David says:

    Bernadette,

    “I find it very difficult to keep going with this, but I think it is the only way I know how to approach it. I hope that with ‘going with my body’ will take me closer to recovering the memory.”

    I haven’t recovered any memories myself either, but I agree with you very much that going with the body is what will be most helpful. A real case in point happened to me this morning. I woke up feeling anxious and tired, despite having slept reasonably well. I couldn’t get going with anything, and just steadily felt worse and worse, with no thought, daydream, piece of music giving me any solace. I wanted to start my day with qigong exercises, but felt a lot of resistance, until I just literally ended up anxiously pacing in circles in my living room. I stopped myself, thinking ‘this is nuts. Do something!’ I made myself start the qigong exercises and with pushing my hand forward in the first movement immediately started to feel tears coming, and then saying “I’m so scared” out loud brought the feeling on more. I have often found that it takes going for a walk or doing something physical that is helpful to me, like qigong exercises, to get energy moving inside me, to galvanize the process. Perhaps to go against the grain of learned or rather imprinted helplessness? I’m theorizing a little bit… The feeling opened up and I was in some familiar and some new abuse feelings: “I’m so scared”, “Please don’t hurt me any more, “Please don’t do it”. Frustratingly, it all sort of fizzled out after about 5 minutes. I felt there was a lot more there that I wasn’t connecting to. I then started reflecting on how I was going to reply to you on the blog, which put me back in touch with the fear. The fear/shock from the abuse from my father feels like a total paralysis. Like my whole being has contracted in on itself until there is no room left between the molecules. The muscles in my arms and legs and shoulders feel like highly strung knotted wires. As I became more conscious of all this, so too came my body’s response to it. Which first was to shiver, then quiver, then shake. I let it completely take me over. The were no words or tears. My teeth were clenched, my lips drawn back, my breathing fast, sharp and intense. Finally I lay down and all fear evaporated as I felt at one with my body and what it wanted to do, which was to shake and shake and shake and shake and shake.

    I felt quite a bit of relief afterwards, but still some residual tension and scatty thinking. More there to come I’m sure. But connecting with fear like this doesn’t happen with me that often. I feel you are helping me so much with what you write on the blog. It is very helful to connect with someone else going through similar experiences. Also, to articulate myself well here I am having to hone in on my feelings, memories and experiences with a kind of laser like focus, which in itself feels like a helpful process. I will write more in response to what you wrote soon, but I wanted to get down what happened today.

  247. Margaret says:

    > had two strange dreams last night.
    > in the first I was in a desert, already hurt and trying to escape someone who was trying to hurt me or worse, but then I was hit by some kind of jagged spear that was thrown at me, and fell down, knowing I had no way to escape, and all I could do was hope that if this was gonna be the end that it would come fast and the person would not start torturing me..
    >
    > the next dream was again in a desert, very empty, just heat and loose sand. I was punished or something, and although my brother was close before me, sitting on a camel, I knew he could not at that point do anything to help me.
    > he was moving on on the camel’s back, and all I could do was to try and follow him as closely as possible, and hope I could bring it up to keep walking and walking in the sand, and the heat, as it was my only hope to survive, although I felt like my chances were poor to make it till the next day, I had no better option than to keep moving in order to survive…
    >
    > seems kind of representative for my fear of never finding company and an easier, safer and more pleasant way of living.
    >
    > today though I had a nice talk on the phone with someone originnally from Cabo Verde, visually disabled, and he turns out to go to the same music academy as I went to.
    >
    > we were supposed to get together about some soft- and hardware exchange, but that got postponed.
    >
    > but we agreed to get together eventually anyway at some point for a chat and a drink, and maybe some piano as that is waht he is learning, so that was a nice glimpse of a possible little oasis in my desert…
    >
    > so it is not all doom and gloom, and no desert either as it is raining again here…
    >
    > David, we had another David here last year living in Canada, but I am starting to think that is not you, you sound like another person, is that true?
    >
    > the things you and Bernadette have to deal with sound so horrible, it seems so good you can give each other support here.
    >
    > M

    • David says:

      Margaret, I’m not living in Canada, though I was born there, so you are right that I’m a different David. I did post here some years ago with my full name, if I remember rightly, but I feel more of a need for privacy with what I’m talking about.

      Yes, it’s horrible stuff I’m dealing with, but it never feels like more than I can handle. Like with any primal feeling, getting into it is the hard part.

      Yes, I agree this is a great place for support and to have someone else sharing about similar experiences is especially helpful.

  248. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > it is so true the hard part is getting into the feeling.
    > once there it usually seems to feel like a relief to finally let it out, isn’t it?
    >
    > last year I had deep sadness in the present, and that was the worst feeling i ever had, and it went on and on for weeks and weeks, part of it came up the other day still, but that seemed mostly old stuff triggered by last year’s grieving.
    > M

    • David says:

      Yes, the relief is priceless! Isn’t that what we all came to therapy for? To feel that relief and to feel more connected to ourselves and by extension to each other and to feel more alive? I often wonder what I would do without this process that feels so natural and has become such a well worn path that I take it for granted almost.

  249. swisslady says:

    David, you’re doing really well! Again, I’m in awe with the way you approach your very frightening feelings! I can relate to every word you wrote. I agree with getting the energy going by exercise really helps. For me it’s yoga, I’ve been doing yoga for over 20 years. Like you, I am sometimes reluctant to start, exactly because I know a feeling will come up and I want to avoid the feeling. Other times, it’s the opposite, I want to exercise in order to bring up a feeling. I’ve been in yoga classes crying while following the vinyasa flow and felt it was very healing but these days, I do yoga mostly at home. Your theory “go against the grain of learned or rather imprinted helplessness” makes a lot of sense. For me it could also mean getting me out of the paralyzing stupor that fear causes. As you so eloquently put it “my whole being has contracted in on itself until there is no room left between the molecules” – I’ve never heard it described quite like this, but my body feels just like it. In fact, I’m feeling like it in this very moment. I have to go to a physical check up today and I’m not looking forward to having the doctor’s paws all over my body – yikes! It pushes my buttons. Also, I have to deal with my prospective employer today – final answer – and it brings up a lot of fear. Better get going and deal with it! More later…
    –Bernadette

  250. Daniel says:

    You all raise very good points. My use of the word “experience” is indeed not accurate enough; like with many other mental phenomenon it is difficult to find exact words to speak about things which are outside the field of language.

    I think it comes down to the question, who is the one that is doing the experiencing? Implicit in your account is the assumption that psychologically speaking there is a human being present from the very start, a whole human being, and that that human being is experiencing things. That is true only in the objective sense, when we look at that baby from the outside and see an individual with skin that acts as a membrane between him or her and the rest of the world, giving meaning to the terms ‘outside’ and ‘inside’.

    However, is that the way things are subjectively, for the baby itself? I doubt it. At the very least during the larger part of their day and night babies are inseparable from the world, without any recognition of a difference between an inside and an outside, between ‘me’ and ‘not-me’. Winnicott said it beautifully: There is no such thing as a baby, only a baby/mother set-up.

    So, my question refers to this time in our lives when we were not separate, not yet having a self of our own – how do we respond to trauma then? Do we repress it? Can we create symbols? I think, with Winnicott, that the “defence” available to the infant facing too much pain during the time of total dependence is not repression (which implies a repressing agency) but rather disintegration. And that threat of disintegration lingers on throughout life in one way or another.

    • sylvia says:

      Daniel, I think people who become drug addicts are the ones who feel the most disintegration from babyhood and before, for sure. They require the drugs to shut off and feel normal.
      Those that were stuck in the birth canal may have a different reaction to present stress, they may have to get out and get going, always on the run, to stay away from that early trauma. I think it has been said that A.D.D. comes from disintegration or disorientation however you wish to define it, from very early pain. So many weird act outs can manifest. In humorist David Sedaris’ (a sufferer of attention deficit disorder) biographical book he stated on the walk home from school he had to lick all the mailboxes.

    • Daniel: On reading this your latest comment I do see what you are getting at, but in blogging and attempting to put a notion accross requires a certain skill. My feeling for what it is worth is that you are not suceeding to do that.

      For me I try to explain things as simple as I can muster. This how I would approach what I feel you are attempting to put across, and my way of doing that is based almost totally on Janov’s writings:-

      For the fetus or the baby; feeling pain, physical or emotional, warps it’s mentality, body and development. in order to regain as much comfort or bear-ability as it can from what facilities it has, at the stage of development it is currently at. It is just that adaptation (different for each and every one of us). We then grow up and consider (for the most part) that our present situation is “normal”, unless there is evidence out there that we are missing something.

      However, “Feeling normal” is a judgment call, and is subjective. The problem arises by those who attempt to set our a “univers-ailty of normal-ness” (being objective) is contrary IMO to what I feel Janov revealed in “The Primal Scream”. To put it bluntly:- we are none us ‘NORMAL’.

      Jack

    • swisslady says:

      Daniel, I don’t know at what point exactly during gestation a fetus becomes aware of herself. But by my own experience, at a certain point, a baby can differentiate between inside and outside, she can hear the noises from outside and the noises within the mother’s body. She can sense the mood of her mother, her fears, her worries. During several primal feelings, I experienced these sensations and felt a distinct difference between me and her, although, it is possible that at this point her feelings became mine. I still need to explore this aspect. I also experienced the turning upside down of my body in the womb. In a normal pregnancy this happens around weeks 30-34, which is several weeks before the birth at about week 40. I was aware of myself as a separate being at that point and throughout the birth process.
      I don’t have anything to prove it, I don’t have a theory, but I do have the experience I can rely on. I respectfully disagree with Mr. Winnicott.
      –Bernadette

  251. Phil says:

    Daniel,
    What you say here is discouraging, but there’s nothing to do about it except forge ahead.
    But it can help explain why this therapy is such a lengthy and difficult process.
    I don’t think I had much of a mother/baby set-up to rely on.
    Phil

    • Phil says:

      Daniel,
      That we relive baby feelings in our primals is evidence
      of repression at that age. Not a theory but something experienced. Janov’s writings don’t get respect because his theories incorporate the experiences of primal patients. Those experiences, to me, are a reliable indicator of what’s possible, and I have been confirming it for myself. I’m not that impressed with what Winnicott said.
      Phil

  252. swisslady says:

    David, I knew I had to call my ‘prospective’ employer and say ‘no’ – but just the thought of having to reject his offer brought up a lot of fear. The truth is, his offer was not all that good, but what’s more, I don’t really want to work right now. So, driving back from the doctor’s this afternoon, all of a sudden I started saying out loud: “I don’t want to do it! I don’t want to do it!” Fully knowing that it was more than just the job I didn’t want to do; it was also an old feeling.

    At home, I lay down on the bed with that thought in mind, asked my husband to sit with me and then it started, wow! First, body shaking with fear, – I don’t want to do it! – then quietly whimpering and tears are flowing – no! I don’t want to do it! – more whimpering, a bit louder now, then a visual memory: In the pantry, on one side of a wall, there were some hooks for hanging up coats. I had my eyes averted away from the horrible scene, of which I was the main character, staring at the coats hanging in the corner. I see only coats, nothing else! Completely disassociated otherwise, while the perpetrator violated me. Then gagging, coughing, spitting, almost suffocating. Keep your eyes on the coats in the corner! Don’t see anything else! Dark coats, one fell to the floor, mom will be angry… more gagging, coughing…tears… then a sudden flash of consciousness: this actually happened to me! It is actually happening to me! And with that realization, a surge of anger! I kick my legs and yell out in anger, the crying gets louder and stronger in anger and protest! What a pig! Get away from me! Then a huge insight while I’m crying: this crime perpetrated against me has made me the ugly, angry, bad person that I am now. With that insight, the crying became only stronger. I wailed with pain, said ‘sorry’ to my husband over and over again for having been such a rotten bitch for many years (side note: not always 🙂 ). The realization of all the anger and ugliness that I have acted out over the years, people I’ve hurt with it – it hurts my heart!

    Then the cycle started over with gagging and coughing, anger, kicking, crying and then – Mama! I want my mommy! I’m trying to tell her what happened but can’t find the words. Only crying, terrible painful crying, Mama! Mama! Mommy! Mommy! I want my mommy! Oh the pain!

    After calming down, my body relaxed. More memories came flooding in: I had wet my bed the following night. Mom being concerned about it, not angry. I could see and sense her concern, her worried thoughts spinning in her head. I was not punished for it. No hugs either, though.

    Remembering not wanting sauce or gravy with the pasta or mashed potatoes, I ate them dry. No butter on the toast, I ate it dry. I hear my Mama saying “why such a sour face all the time?” – yes, I was a miserable, angry child after that, at least for a while, I have photos to prove it. Until I was reconditioned to smile and “be good”.

    I was able to call the “prospective” (not anymore) employer and told him “I don’t want to do it. I’m not ready to go back to work.” He was kind and understanding and we left the door open, should I change my mind down the line. After the feeling, talking with him on a grown-up level was no big deal.

    What a horrible thing to go through! And yet, I am grateful and joyous for having access to the pain, finally being able to release it and heal.

    David, thanks for listening. You have no idea how much it helps me knowing that you understand because you are going through a similar thing and know what it is like. I’m just sorry for all the pain we all have to suffer.
    –Bernadette

    • Bernadette: Wow and wow!!!! you seem to be doing it all so cleanly and efficiently (inspire of the pain) Lucky old you to have a husband that will sit for you and is also a Primal person.

      Take great care. Jack

  253. Random thoughts that penetrate my consciousness.If i make any move,I am doomed. ah must be that birth feeling coming up. nah, although i think it exists and is chained/associated with keeping still (not sure what age).so my uncle would not kill me. or something like that. oh, i am sure there are other paralyzing episodes in my early life. I started exercising in May, i think on a tony little eliptical that has been sitting on the back porch, unused for years. sunday i started on the exercycle, also in the backyard unused for years. it had a bad squeak so neither of us were using it. i thought per the schwinn help desk that i called years ago that i had to remove the axle or something to fix it, with a wheel pujller that i bought and never used. i tried some white spray lube today and the squeak is gone. whoopee. still doomed.unfortunate father of 2 professor at ucla was murdered by a student today. these school shootings are fixable, but the people in charge of us are morons. maybe mr trump can come up with a plan. Just writing for the hell of it. my kid didnt go to ucla today, thank you jesus. I have been around the pain of losing loved ones and i feel for that wife and kids. you never recover. in my opinion.

  254. Phil says:

    Today I was stuck in highway traffic on the way to work. Parked there for 20 minutes and then very slowly moving. I didn’t see any problems as it got back up to speed. It made me over half an hour late to work, but that was no big deal. Later on I found out it was because a car ran out of gas and came to a dead stop in one of the lanes. Apparently a large tractor trailer came along
    and rammed it killing 3 people.
    This is the kind of thing that fills me with dread, not for myself, but for my kids. I mentioned it to both of them, so they know enough to abandon a car disabled like that and quickly get off to the side of the road. For some reason I’m confident about my own driving abilities to avoid accidents, but I don’t have control over their driving.
    Phil

    • swisslady says:

      Phil, I don’t have children but still can relate to the dread you’re feeling a little bit – it’s not the same for me as it is for you, I’m sure. I can imagine that not having control over your kids’ driving must render you feeling helpless to some extent. I can also imagine that a parent, at some point, has to trust that his children have enough conventional knowledge (your good advice) or common sense or good instincts to do the right thing. But it’s easy for me to say! As I don’t have children, I can’t feel how a parent feels. I was once told that a child is always a child in her parent’s eyes, no matter how old she is.
      I’m glad you’re safe!
      –Bernadette

  255. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > what do you mean by disintegration?
    >
    > I agree on small children having more of a sense of oneness with the world, but that does not mean they have no sense of self, without having to be bothered about what lies outside of their perceptions.
    >
    > in my baby wailing at the time of being bothered by the sound of a loud angry male voice going on and on, the baby me still was an entity, full of awareness, its reaction being its automatic response to signal that part of its world that was bothersome to change. in that case it does not make much difference if there is a mental line between ‘me and my body’ and the rest of the world.
    > that simply does not form a problem and does not really make a difference as I really feel and remember being very conscious at a very early stage. it is not even conscious of me, being conscious is being me in its full capacity.
    >
    > I remember at about the age of four a distinct moment of insight about another person not necessarily feeling the same way as I did.
    >
    > I was sitting on the back seat of a bicycle behind a woman taking me somewhere, and at some point decided to tickle her, as that was fun..
    > she grumbled at me, called me something like a no-good, or a rascal, and I remember consciously thinking ‘she is she and I am me’, the first moment of conscious theory of mind so to say.
    >
    > but for the feeling side I don’t know if it makes much difference as to experiencing and repressing feelings, before that, maybe it can be compared to say if the whole world is our body, which is not an entirely good comparison, we could still have some pain out of our control, like you can also have pain in a body part that makes you feel bad and cry and can be too much for the system at some point to process unless the system shuts part of itself off.
    >
    > if those early baby wails come so naturally in primal feelings, they must have been stored somehow, ready to be felt and processed, isn’t it?
    > could that also be the case with disintegration?
    > it depends of your definition of that term.
    > M

  256. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > your comment really made me cry and cry more while reading it.
    > M

  257. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > it sounds so special to have a husband or a wife like you are and have by your side.
    > I am sure it can be hard at times, but still it must be a privilege to be in a good primal marriage.
    > I am very glad for both you and your husband, this feeling sounds like such a tremendous breakthrough in many ways.
    > thanks for sharing with us.
    > M

  258. David says:

    Bernadette, Wow! It sounds like you made a huge breakthrough, not just with feeling the feelings but with the new memories and insights. Not surprising that your feeling “I don’t want to do it” would resonate strongly with how you felt “back then”. What was also heartening is that you were able to feel and react with anger, literally kicking out at your aggressor. Sounds really healthy, that you are strengthening or regaining your ability to protect your boundaries. What a ghastly experience you describe unfolding, it is really sad. As I’ve said before, I don’t have this level of detail, but this issue of sexual abuse is unfolding for me also. So yes, I relate to and understand what you’re going through, especially the fear, the grief and the disgust. The feelings I have had to go through that revealed to me the sexual abuse are something that I would never have volunteered for.

    Great also that it had an immediate effect on what you needed to say to your no-longer-prospective boss. I get the impression that after the old feeling was out of the way, it was suddenly no big deal. Which must have felt empowering. I often find that it’s in my interactions with people that I really see that change is happening in me. All of a sudden I find I’m more spontaneous or more assertive or more empathic or whatever it is I find that different in myself. It’s great to get these hits of confirmation that we are changing and growing as a result of this process.

    “I am grateful and joyous for having access to the pain, finally being able to release it and heal.”

    Yes I agree. Being in a feeling is a kind of strange mix of feeling good and feeling bad at the same time. And making that transition from the often anguished, chaotic state ramping up to a feeling, not knowing what is coming, to the feeling of calmness and equanimity afterwards can also feel like a real accomplishment, particularly with what we are working with. It’s not an easy thing we have to (re)live through.

    You wrote in an earlier post: “You gave me some things to think about, especially about the “things you loved” that you had to hide from your parents for self protection. ” It wasn’t that I physically hid anything from them, I don’t know if I gave that impression. It was that the good feelings I had about things I enjoyed in my childhood – I’m thinking about specifically my collection of Charlie Brown books or my Matchbox toy cars – got buried with the pain, and as I consequence it became hard to share things I enjoy in the present. That led into grief about my father and the terrible relationship I had with him.

    ” All I can say is that I had to hide any needs that I might have had, of wanting to be close, or hugged, which never happened.”

    I have no memories either of my parents being affectionate or demonstrative. I don’t remember any hugging or kissing or cuddles. My mother has admitted she found it difficult to hug or be affectionate. The one good thing I can remember from my mum is she used to read me bed time stories. And I had the connection recently that I like books and bookstores because it feels to me like a connection back to at least this one good connection I had with my mum. Even if I am somewhere like London, with all it’s myriad things to see and do, at some point I will head for a bookstore, just to browse and hang out.

    Thanks for your kind words about my therapy progress. I feel I am doing good with what I’ve got at the moment, which is next to nothing. I have a skype session with my therapist in Florida occasionally, but I know I could be making better progress if I had the physical presence of someone in a session. But I keep forging ahead. I appreciate your encouragement.

  259. Daniel says:

    What do I mean by disintegration? All the anxieties which deal with existence, survival, annihilation, identity are anxieties that are about falling apart, falling forever, about the breakdown of the self or of the collusion between the body and the mind. These are common among psychotic patients and also so-called borderline patients. I don’t know how the primal literature relates to these types of patient but my guess would be they are not very suited to this kind of therapy.

    By the way, these unthinkable anxieties – may we call them psychotic anxieties? – are present at times even in neurotics whose anxieties are primarily neurotic. In general I tried to talk about these parts of the personality – any personality – which we may call psychotic because they are un-mentalised and are incapable of creating symbols. These parts can put on a costume and present themselves as neurotic, but unless we will get to the madness little real work will be done.
    It looks like people on the blog felt the need to protect primal theory as if I was attacking it, which to be sure I wasn’t. For me Primal ideas should act as avenues and doors and windows through which we can think about humans and about psychotherapy and its many difficulties and uncertainties. One way to escape the uncertainties – which indeed cause anxiety – is to be too sure, too certain about things, too eager to prove that all problems have been solved, where in reality they haven’t. We must live with the questions before we can arrive, if we arrive, at the answers.

    This relates also to my previous question, is the desire to be cured helps or hinders cure (if such a think exists)? For me it’s a valid question because the desire too, with its look into the future, may itself be a denial of the truth of the current moment, or at least a rejection of current pain.

    And Jack, I didn’t really understand what you’re trying to say in your comment to me, except that I lack the skill to successfully put a notion across. Well, I haven’t given up on you yet and would like to try again hoping my lack of skill will not stand in the way. So here, without further ado, is my favorite cauliflower recipe:

    You’ll need: 1 whole cauliflower, olive oil, salt.
    1. Pre-heat your oven to 480° – 550° (usually the maximum);
    2. Boil some water in a pan and add some salt;
    3. Place the whole head of cauliflower upside down in the boiling water for 5-7 min;
    4. Carefully take the cauliflower out of the pot and place upright in an oven-proof pan;
    5. Brush whole head of cauliflower with olive oil and sprinkle with salt and pepper to taste;
    6. Place in hot oven for 20-30 min., brushing again with olive oil half way through the cooking;
    7. Take out of oven when white parts of the whole head begin to brown. The green leaves around the white part will be wilted and burned.

    • Quote:- ” I don’t know how the primal literature relates to these types of patient but my guess would be they are not very suited to this kind of therapy.”

      It is pretty obvoious to me that you don’t know HOW the Primal literature relates to these types of patient …AND what patients???? Primal, or Schitophrenics

      You are about the third person I have read on this blog that is trying to update Primal Theory and (I suspect) trying to Impose your notion of how the therapy should be conducted. I am not sure what your credentials are, BUT like one other person on this blog; is so into his head, seemingly, to the exclusion of all his feelings.

      If you genuinely are interested, where in the Primal literature … I suggest you re-read the first 79 pages of “The Primal Scream” If you dodn’t GET IT on first reading try (like I did) reading it a second time. Just those first 79 Pages.

      I suspect you are reading (Will????) and have bought into his notion or at least a great deal of it. To and for me, it’s all OBJECTIVE (as is with your latest comment). Arthur Janov (PhD) actually admitted in the introduction of “The Primal Scream”, that he didn’t have a clue as to what had happened to Danny Wilson. I don’t know for sure, BUT I suspect that for Janov himself, it did not make TOTAL SENSE until he himself descended into a re-living of his own childhood. From there-on-in he was able to be totally and truly SUBJECTIVE.

      Have you EVER experience a re-living of your own baby-hood? If not; I will take a guess and suggest like the other blogger here that also failed to do the therapy, but is all ‘gung hoo’ to tell the rest of us that Janov and the rest of us (followeres) are ‘up ther creek without a paddle; when infact he’s actually the one, without knowing it,”up the creek”.

      Lastly Daniel: This latest comment of yours is so all over the place making little sense of all the complication and convolution of YOUR notion of pshychology. Haw many years and at what educational institution did you study it?????

      My guess, though I could well be wrong is:- NONE … NO-WHERE.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        Daniel “Have you EVER experience a re-living of your own baby-hood?” or how about have you EVER experienced a ‘living’ forget ‘reliving’ for the moment of your own baby hood” How fucking absurd is this getting? Is this absurd ENOUGH for you yet? Don’t worry I am sure Jack can get MORE absurd………………..just wait for it……………sorry I HAVE to do this again

    • Phil says:

      Daniel,
      Your recent comments have been interesting and stimulating (except for the cauliflower recipe).
      You seemed to be saying that babies are incapable of repressing traumatic experiences due to their immaturity. Yet in primal therapy patients do release repressed baby pain and that relieves symptoms and is very helpful for the individual. So what you say does appear to be an attack on primal theory and people’s experiences. Are you trying to say that those types of relivings are delusional?
      Phil

  260. sylvia says:

    I don’t think we want to have all the answers about psychology and how to help ourselves and others with anxieties in order to avoid it, to placate ourselves. Rather we dig into the anxiety pushing against the instinct to defend to unearth it.
    I believe the root of anxiety, terror has to already be experienced by the therapist herself (if that was an early pain for her) for her to have the will and lack of fear to be able to take the patient there.
    I like steamed cauliflower.

  261. Patrick says:

    Daniel – I am sure you do not want or appreciate my ‘support’ but while not following what you were saying so closely I did feel in essence that when you said this “It looks like people on the blog felt the need to protect primal theory as if I was attacking it, which to be sure I wasn’t.” I felt it to be true. I am very often in the same boat myself though I have to admit sometimes I am ‘attacking’ or at least the ‘implementation’ of if it but I do feel in essence I am very often sort of doing what you do are doing here with more grace and subtlety(that’s you I mean) which is simply having a question, or wondering if the primal approach is as all encompassing as it is made out to be.

    To try to ‘translate’ I think you are asking just because the model of remembering, reliving, etc a later or discreet memory is it valid to apply to a time when there are no discreet memories by definition? I think that’s a fair question for myself though I don’t feel that it invalidates the basic primal paradigm. I do feel/think even that stage of life can be retrieved, re lived whatever word you want to use. But in a different way and very likely not much in the standard therapeutic type of environment. I would even say that environment even goes against the possibility of working through that. I think ‘meditation’ we can even make up a new word call is ‘primal meditation’ I do feel that is kind of what I have been doing in the morning sun and it feels to me to be very helpful.

    People are different of course even very very different. I seem to need something from ‘nature’ the sun now, earlier it was the ‘cold’ to ‘meditate’ in this way. Maybe that points to some ’emptiness’ in me maybe others can ‘meditate’ without the help of ‘nature’. But I accept that about myself after all if I did not have some ‘lack’ or ’emptiness’ I would just be fine and not need to do anything. In any case Daniel I think it is good you ask questions I do believe that kind of process could be quite productive. I must say I feel very highly ‘inhibited’ by Jack ANY question(s) from me will be found by him to be stupid whatever whatever and this is the kind of environment that results from that kind of ‘tyranny’. Nothing much seems possible but to agree and try to play the part to get his ‘approval’ (like Bernadette at the moment ?) Everything is given a ‘rating’ good and bad while pontificating that there is no good and bad. It’s not that I need his approval but he is such a dominating \and hateful presence here to me. In his world Janov has said it all and of course he has not and even if he has ‘said’ it all he has certainly not ‘done’ it all. I still say primal therapy in the main is marked by failure. Jack will try to rub my nose in this as if it is ONLY a ‘failure’ of mine I am afraid to say it is not only that at all …………..it is the common reality for most and I do believe I have shown bravery in taking that ‘failure’ label and tried to do as much as I have with it. Most people shy away from that as far as they can but I have I feel faced it down. And I have made some ‘discoveries’ as a result..After all it is the easiest and most cowardly thing to just go along to get along which is hardly good enough if we are talking about ‘fixing’ something that has haunted humans forever we might say.

  262. Patrick says:

    Having said all that a big part of me feels it is all sort of a ‘storm in a teacup’ when we look at what is really happening to the climate and so on. Here is what Dane Wigington says this week

    “Earth’s former energy balance has been completely derailed, we are now in a free-fall state toward an irreparably altered and very inhospitable planet. The majority of populations (especially in industrialized countries) are even now immersed in total denial in regard to the damage that has been inflicted to the environment and climate systems by human activity. Any form of anthropogenic activity that impacts Earth’s natural processes must be considered a form of geoengineering. The greatest and most destructive form of biosphere interference is the ongoing highly toxic climate engineering/weather warfare global assault. Burning forests, drought, deluge, volcanic eruptions, nuclear contamination and die-off, are already now the norm and this process will accelerate rapidly. Geoengineering is being ramped up to unimaginable levels as the collapse of the biosphere and social structure unfolds.”

    • Patrick: On the comment of “Global Warming” I agree in essence that “Global warming” is taking place. Why and EXACTLY how I do not know. The evidence though, to me, points in that direction.

      My take on your dissertations is that you, seemingly, know what is wrong but never put forward bow to prevent it. Do you have an idea how that could take place?

      I have an idea that I have proposed several times on this blog and others. However it takes something of a “conceptual leap” as I have preciously stated, to get ones ‘arms around it’.

      Still, I doubt you will even give more than your usual two second rant about who I am rather than discuss what I might have to say.

      Jack

  263. That is a completely inaccurate description of Bernadette. When she agrees she says so and when she disagrees she says so. The implication is of course if someone agrees with something Jack says it must only be because they want approval not because they simply agree. That’s not at all who she is. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I mentioned it is passing and I probably should have not have. And it was really a point to Jack like here he goes again now ‘approving’ like Bernadette oh ‘wow and wow’ one minute like a fucking puppy dog approving, praising fawning IF it meets his ‘approval’ and then a mad dog of hatred just look at his response to Daniel………..why? because Daniel does not at all times toe the primal line. You might comment on that Gretchen you so quickly rise up to Bernadettes’ defense’ just like you did with Guru yesterday. Like I said before to Jack WHO THE FUCK CARES WHAT HE THINKS? Does he have to sit there and JUDGE everything, this is good this is bad like a fucking broken record and we know who he will find ‘good’ and ‘bad’ one is yep, yep, yep and yep, or yap yap yap and yap. WTF: Like I said before a fucking JUDGE

  264. swisslady says:

    Patrick, when I write on this blog I don’t do it to seek approval. I’m just documenting my Primal experiences and occasionally express my opinion. What is very nice though, is to get support and encouragement from the bloggers; it has helped me face some of my worst feelings. It is interesting to me that you have a reaction only to Jack’s response to me, not to any of the other bloggers who support me. Clearly, you are focused on Jack for your own reasons, and I have to ask you to please leave me out of your struggle that you have with him.
    –Bernadette

    • Patrick says:

      OK that’s fine…………….though I did yesterday find it a bit weird when Guru asked if you had some familial connection to Jack and they way you answered well it seems highly defensive you accused him of not being ‘innocuous’ like what’s that all about? But I have another reaction to you………………

      ALL of this stuff you are going on about now as if it was so new and fresh and like you are on the cusp of discovering something really really big about yourself……………I distinctly remember you going on about the SAME things in the ’80’s. I honestly do find it a bit weird. Of course who am I to say? Have I ‘resolved’ anything really? But the way you do it I dunno it just seems actually a bit ‘dishonest’ and also an element of ‘staging’ about the whole thing. No need to freak out I am just giving you my reaction based on what I know about you which admittedly is not much.

      Also the thought crossed my mind Jack every chance he gets waives the ‘failure’ flag in my face…………………so are you a ‘failure’ too then in that more than 30 years later you are still going on about the exact same things and even in the exact same way? OK you will say that’s between me and him and I accept that but well how come you get all these ‘wows and wows’ I mean I know you are connected to Jack and since he wrote this blog and how you immediate were on there a lot…………….I dunno it has a kind of funky feeling to it. Your ‘stories’ sound how can I put it a bit overblown a bit over dramatic and like there is this massive transformation going on…………. the SAME ‘transformation’ I remember from over 30 years ago.

      I guess I feel so burned by the Waddingtons in general it is hard for me to be that sympathetic to you especially if I feel an element of ‘acting’ I am quite sensitive to that you may not know it but to me an awful lot of life nowadays is ‘acting’ like the ‘terror events’ that Margaret take so seriously. And not only her we are all MEANT to take them seriously but I for one DON’T……………..If something sounds a bit phony or staged to me I will say it just as I have now……………

      • swisslady says:

        Patrick,
        That’s exactly true: I’m discovering new things about myself everyday, even after all these years in therapy.
        Nope, it’s not staged, nope it’s not dishonest – it is every bit as dramatic and traumatic as it sounds. Maybe if you tried it, you’d know for yourself.
        Nope, I’m not a failure because I keep going, 20 years, 30 years, as long as it takes, while you have apparently given up…. hmm, maybe not entirely or you wouldn’t be on the primal blog.
        Lastly, don’t pull me into your beef with the Waddingtons!
        –Bernadette

        • swisslady says:

          “…maybe you can tell your crazy old Uncle or whatever he is to leave me the f… alone….”. I could try but you know as much as I do that it would have no influence whatsoever. Nobody “tells” Jack what to do 🙂 I will let the two of you fight your own battles.
          B.

      • Quote:- “Of course who am I to say? Have I ‘resolved’ anything really?” Not as far as I can see.

        Another one”- “Also the thought crossed my mind Jack every chance he gets waives the ‘failure’ flag in my face…………………so are you a ‘failure’ too then in that more than 30 years later you are still going on about the exact same things and even in the exact same way?”
        If you are asking me if I am a failure … YES …in many respects; here listed for your perusal:-
        1) I failed miserably with business.
        2)I failed at acting even though I passed an entrance into The Academy of Dramatic Art (RADA)
        3)I failed miserably to get into a university.
        4)I failed to make much money.
        I am sure if I were to go on thinking about it there are many more failures I made in life. However as I see it, the only difference between me and you is:- that I can admit to some of my failures … whereas I see you going wacko over just one and busy trying to prove that in-fact you didn’t actually fail that one at all.

        Yet another:= “I dunno it has a kind of funky feeling to it”
        My suspicion is you really “dunno” a lot of things, and much that you cliam to really know.

        And lastly for now:- “If something sounds a bit phony or staged to me I will say it just as I have now……………”
        As I see you, there is so much in your life seems that seem to you:- “weird”, “funky”, a big lie, and some others that for now I cannot remember. You are so accusatory about so much, and in so much denial about so many other things. Remember:- just as you have known me for more that 30 years, AND made public on this blog, but I too have be quite closely connected with you and your business for the same amount of time. I have sat for you and know much on that level also.

        Jack

  265. I dont always eat broccoli, but when i do, it is microwaved. someday i am going to cook that head of cauliflower that’s in the fridge, broken bottom drawer. If i steal a lemon, to season the broccoli, from z’s drawer, she will steal my bocaburgers. the junk food i ate today will take another year off my life. but the cat seems a little better, not breathing so heavily. now the dog has a pain again. so horribly hectic at work again today, and my boss took over my computer today, “for 5 minutes” (actually an hour) in the computer room. This is the boss who said, “it is not a computer room, it is a storage room. no one can have a desk and computer in there (in the “STORAGE ROOM” that has been a computer room as long as i have worked there since 1989). carry your laptop with you everywhere.” I fucking HATE LAPTOPS. horribly hot today and only going to get hotter. if the PI was not here, I would apply for a job in a colder climate.

  266. you know, i really like eggplant, but who has the time to cook? not me.

  267. swisslady says:

    Margaret, the ‘breakthrough’ is in the fact that I was able to ask for help, get angry, and let myself feel the need for my mother. I’ve been in shock for such a long time and kept the trauma bottled up for years. Only now that I’m stronger and also can reach out for support, I can actually feel/recover some of the details. I still don’t know who violated me, but as I keep feeling the same scene over and over again, I hope to chip away the layers of pain and come to an answer and with that to some relief. It has been a long time coming…
    Being in a primal relationship/marriage is no walk in the park 🙂 there is a lot of transference going on, and it takes time to untangle what’s present and what’s old. Just another primal journey.
    –Bernadette

  268. The traffic news people say it a lot, if your car stalls on the freeway, just stay in your car. I am also of the opinion, as Phil said above, get the f out of the car if possible, if there is a place you can find that might be safer. but dont go running across the freeway like eddie murphy in bowfinger. anytime i used to hear of a fatality on the freeway news, and it was the freeway i knew my kids were using at that time, i would get really scared and call them to see if they were safe. yes, they will always be children to us. and every f-up i have done to them will torture me for the rest of my life.

  269. i dont have control over the kids driving either, and i usually don’t like being driven by them, even though my own driving makes the dog in the back seat quiver and cower.

  270. Jack, to be clear, i don’t consider the PT TECHNIQUES to be magic (although to me, it is a whole mysterious realm that i wish i knew more about). i consider PT to be MAGIC, as in WOW, What the f is this shit! WOW! Maybe that is not clear. Maybe…we are looking into a forgotten universe, a 4th dimension, when we hit that feeling, in my opinion. UNF’ING BELIEVEABLE STUFF! And actually, you know, BB carries a voodoo doll around with him. he used it successfully to get me, Z, and kid out of f’ing Arizona and back to L.A.!

  271. that was a comment on your comment from may 18. i dont want to position my comment on the comment, right after the comment, if i am reading the comment 2 weeks later, because navigating through this blog is stressful for me.

  272. Look at this girl doing hypnosis on youtube. she has evil in her eyes. 8 hours hypnosis for ultra deep sleep with Chelsea ASMR 美女催眠師 Schöne Hypnotiseur

  273. Sylvia says:

    Otto, if you get an Instant Pot, an electric pressure cooker it will cook four crowns of broccoli in 3 minutes, cauliflower in 4 minutes, and cut up carrots in 4min. Voila, your dinner.

    Actually when you think about it Patrick is very logical: the holocaust did not happen, the Brussels attack was a hoax and it follows that Bernadette’s pain not fitting in the circumscribed of healing time frame is staged also. Lucky for us someone is on their toes.

    Anyways, I know terrible pain takes decades to undo. And I’ve known some who never tried to deal with their pains and they were unbearable to be around. Keep on keeping on Bernadette.

  274. Patrick, i enjoy hearing you speak about your life in Ireland (MAY 18TH0. And if you feel it is impossible to stop hoarding potatoes, you know, that’s ok, there are plenty more in Idaho. Anyway, on the cover of one of John Lennon’s albums, he made reference to his ancestry of being Irish, O’Linain or something like that. This fellow did not hoard his emotions at all, and his music led me to PT as least as much as THE BOOK. Now, i hardly ever listen to him anymore. I listened to his music too many times. And of course the English are well-known for being cool and having sex. They probably have the best sex in the world. Listen to that accent, it just makes me…want to eat kidney pie and drink warm beer.HA!

    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Otto at least someone is listening. I have told you before you don’t run with packs I appreciate that very much about you.

      • Patrick says:

        Otto – I know that you know your Lennon but you may not have heard this one a lot of people have not.And it’s a cool song it’s weird though to hear Yoko Ono keening away like an Irish person but she does ok

  275. if i were in group, and i heard you talking about the cool English couple, i would not have said the above, because it might have been out of place, as you sounded like you were in fond memories, or at least some kind of vivid memories. i would have asked you (fat chance since i can barely open my mouth in group–there i go talking about myself again), i would have asked you what color was her bikini, then i would have cringed, for trying to act like a therapist, then if you answered polkadot or whatever, i would have seen her in my mind, felt the ocean or whatever, remembered my mom, or whatever. me and my little buddy, as pre-teenagers, used to go to the bay in long beach and wait for girls in bikinis to start wading out into the water, and then we would run into the water alongside them and splash them as we dove into the water, and maybe they cringed or shrieked, i cant remember, and i think my little buddy taught me how to do this, and i am sure these young women hated us for doing that, but, jeez, WHAT A LIFE THAT WAS, chills in my head. HOW ALIVE WE WERE, AND HOW YOUNG! stupid LONELY unattended kids but…wow

  276. swisslady says:

    David, yes, the anger and also the need for my mother in connection with this trauma are new feelings for me. Today in the session, I also started feeling angry at myself for not being able to protect myself, for not crying out for help, for not knowing better than going with the perpetrator. So, not only am I suffering the aftermath of the abuse, but now I also blame myself for letting it happen. But no worry, Gretchen was quick to point out that this is a typical reaction of the victim, and it’s ‘just another feeling’ I need to experience. Rationally I know that it was not my fault, of course.

    “I often find that it’s in my interactions with people that I really see that change is happening in me. All of a sudden I find I’m more spontaneous or more assertive or more empathic or whatever it is I find that different in myself. It’s great to get these hits of confirmation that we are changing and growing as a result of this process.”

    Wonderful! And yes, I completely agree. I am tickled to bits seeing how I’m less afraid and can speak up for myself more than before. This “empowerment trip” can go to my head LOL (and I’m going to enjoy it as long as I can before the next fall into yet another trauma that wants recovering). I also find myself generally more content, less angry, and slowly opening up to more affection and closeness.

    “Being in a feeling is a kind of strange mix of feeling good and feeling bad at the same time. And making that transition from the often anguished, chaotic state ramping up to a feeling, not knowing what is coming, to the feeling of calmness and equanimity afterwards can also feel like a real accomplishment, particularly with what we are working with. It’s not an easy thing we have to (re)live through.”

    Absolutely! I believe sexual abuse trauma is one of the hardest traumas to relive and recover. It takes enormous courage to approach it and keep going with it. No wonder we keep it repressed for years/decades until we are strong enough to face it. It sure feels like a lot of work, and an accomplishment when we find our way through it. It takes a long time to recover the details of such traumatic memories – you already know. Keep going, keep chipping away on the layers, David. I also find that it’s easier to feel the fear when someone is with me.

    I think I did understand that you had to hide your good feelings about the things you enjoyed. That is so sad. You seem to have made good feeling connections, not being able to share the things you enjoy now and how it relates to your relationship to your father. I could imagine that it would feel extremely vulnerable for you to share the things you love most with someone. I have a tendency to keep my most precious feelings to myself as well, like I have a secret world inside. But unlike you, I don’t really have made the connections. One thing comes to mind that I wish my father would have shared with me: he was a musician and didn’t share his music with me. I would have loved to have learned playing the flute as a teenager, but for some crazy reason, only boys were allowed to play music in our family. I have tried the flute and the guitar when I first started therapy in the 80s. I have not played either in years. I think it brings up so much loneliness and pain. I cry my eyes out every time I watch recitals on BBCs Young Musician of the Year.

    It is mind boggling that our mothers never hugged or cuddled us. It is nice that you have at least a good memory connected with books, that was a lovely thing for your mother to do. That makes me think maybe that’s why I pray when I miss my mother (who died 3+ years ago); that’s how I felt close to her as a child. That’s one thing she shared with us when we were growing up. She always prayed with us at bed time. It was the only time that she sat down at the edge of the bed and we had a brief intimate moment together.
    –Bernadette

  277. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > I did not feel you were attacking or criticizing primal therapy.
    > I do not think either it is suited for everyone, in the way it is now.
    > but I still tend to feel your notion of desintegration is very broad and vague, covering therefor also a set of feelings that may well be resolved in primal therapy in many but not in all cases.
    > what one feels during the period when a feeling is still coming up but not there, and defenses kick in hard to suppress what feels like a big threat, the old pain coming up, is so often much worse than the feeling itself when it finally breaks through.
    >
    > so it can be conceived as threatened to fall apart for example, or to lose one’s control and sanity, when once in the feeling it feels absolutely right to go there.
    >
    > it is to me too an interesting field of interest in which cases primal therapy is useful and can work, and in which cases not so, and why, and if there are ways to adjust the therapy itself for some cases, and how, or if for some people it can definitely better never be started with altogether,, and why.
    >
    > the DSM labels are not perfect, while reading them I recognize aspects of them in myself sometimes, some of borderline, some of anxiety disorder, but stil primal therapy works very well.
    >
    > there must be other parameters to go by to try to distinguish between which person can be helped or not by this therapy, but that would be a better question to ask skilled and experienced primal therapists like Gretchen and Barry for example.
    > still some of the primal notions might be useful in other kinds of treatments as I guess for all kind of suffering people primal pains can rise to the surface, and it might be useful, or maybe not, to let that happen in those cases .
    > that is also an interesting subject.
    > M

  278. Daniel says:

    When I say we must live with the questions I do mean ‘we’ and not ‘you’. This isn’t finger pointing but an attempt to describe a trap that awaits us all.

    Some years ago I met a new patient, a veterinarian who was unsure of her chosen profession; married to a husband she loved and mother of two children with whom she had some difficulties. She seemed intelligent, poetic (she wrote poetry) with a good sense of humour, and with the capacity for insight. During a trip to Thailand some years before she took too many drugs and had a psychotic episode but was fine now. Her mother was in a helping profession and it looked like their relationship was very intense and conflicted, but she was able to talk about it in a meaningful way that left me feeling that I am for a treat with this patient, that this therapy will be a rewarding experience for the both of us.

    During the session it felt like thoughts come easily to me, that I’m able to empathize with her, that I understand what she’s going through, and gradually I felt more and more confident, more and more as if I really understand her and what’s going on in the session. The experience at that moment made me feel smart and sensitive and content. We parted with high hopes. A few days later she phoned to say she won’t be returning.

    I was puzzled as this ran against everything I felt during the single session we had, but as the days past I became more and more sure that it had to do with the feelings I had in the session: the feelings of knowing and understanding it all, and I now think it was exactly this in me that failed her. My inflated sense of self, which may even have been orchestrated by her, was not only a recreation of a past relationship in which a parent is more self-absorbed than parental, but at the same time also a camouflage that denied both of us access to the truth or even the acknowledgement that the truth is hidden from us and evasive.

    So I think that when it comes to the human mind being too sure, too confident, ready with an answer, may act as a defence against the intolerable anxiety of not having a meaning or knowing what’s going on. And this is something I have to deal with every single day working with patients. It is never fully resolved.

    Phil’s comment made me understand that people may have got the impression that I think what they are experiencing is fallacious. I don’t think that. I have nothing but admiration for people who found the way to their truths and I can’t nor wish to argue with their process or feelings. But I do have questions – not personal questions to them but rather general questions that help me think about those issues.

    Perhaps this blog is not the place to think about these matters because there are so many personal issues going on and when one is going through something which is very personal and painful for him or her they can’t stand others being intellectual about matters. Maybe the blog cannot accommodate all types of discussion all the time and I for one have to be more sensitive about that.

    [I have more to write. Maybe later].

    • Sylvia says:

      Dan. you’ve brought up a couple of times the notion of not knowing answers and using false confidence to avoid that anxiety of not knowing. Maybe there is a feeling there for you. Maybe getting at the root of your anxiety would help. Like where is it coming from besides a present session with a patient. Maybe you can trace it back and perhaps resolve it.

      • Daniel:
        Did that patient explain exactly why she wasn’t coming back? It could have been something totally unrelated to your capabilities and she didn’t tell you.

        If she didn’t tell you why, it’s entirely possible you were getting emotionally worked up over nothing at all. Maybe her husband threatened to divorce her if she kept going back? Maybe she was going broke and couldn’t afford to see you anymore? Lots of possible reasons…

        An indirectly related sidenote: There was a story the other month about how a group of 20 New Jersey restaurant workers were screaming and shouting in pure ecstasy for hours after winning a $500 million Powerball lottery……until one of them realized their “winning” ticket was for the wrong week’s drawing. Their depression upon discovering this newfound info was devastating, to say the least.

        • That last story I shared was meant to be an example of feeling emotional extremes over nothing (or, perhaps, a mistaken notion). It’s kind of funny because realizing some new info is an entirely intellectual concept, yet it can sway emotions dramatically upon finding out. This seems to run against Janov’s suppositions that feelings drive the thought, when such an example seems to show the thought can drive the feeling, too!

        • Daniel says:

          Yes, she said something about the cost (of which she knew before she came) and that it doesn’t feel like the right moment for her to begin therapy. You know us Psychologists, we try to listen to what’s underneath and for me it meant that something wasn’t right for her, even if she can’t exactly formulate it.
          How about those poor lottery winners? At least for a while they actually had $500 mil.

          • Daniel says:

            BTW, I’m constantly baffled by these unimaginable sums of money American lottery has. What is one to do with $500 or $200 or $100 mil. all at once? What’s wrong with $10 mil.?

            • Daniel, what about the Forbes 400 list? You have to be worth almost $2 billion now just to make the BOTTOM of the 400 richest Americans list. No lottery jackpot can come close to that. Should we be asking them the same question, “What’s wrong with just $10 million?”

              If you successfully disgorged the Forbes 400 of all their wealth and redistributed it among the masses, every single one of the remaining 329,999,600 Americans would receive a check for $7,500 each (including babies, the homeless, murderers on death row, little crippled children, retarded people, etc.)

              The 8 recent regular contributors to this blog would receive $60,000 total (8 times $7,500).

              You live in Switzerland, right? Or somewhere near there? I talked about Universal Basic Income (UBI) a short while ago on the blog. It appears Switzerland is trying to pass a Universal Basic Income of $2,500 per month for every citizen. I believe UBI can work, but I think this amount is far too high and would wreck the economy. UBI is a good idea, yet the amount needs to be small like it is done in Alaska just to test the waters (everyone in Alaska receives $2,000 per year). I expect the Swiss UBI referendum will fail because it’s far too ambitious.

              Finally, you referred to the absurd concentration of wealth brought on by American lotteries. To me, a UBI is the best palliative for that. It’s almost an opposing concept!

    • Daniel: I take it you are both an ex Primal patient and are now currently a practicing psychologist. So! that answers my first question “What are your credentials?”
      But my second question was:- “have you ever experienced a re-living event?”

      I find that Patrick actually believes that many of his memories are of the a re-living. From your comment I am inclined to feel you feel the same. Correct me if I am wrong.

      It is my very strong feeling that anyone that has had, their first, full re-living event, it will remain a crucial event in their lives. You seemingly didn’t make any such reference, hence, why I feel you have not.

      For and to me, until such an event takes place one will remain in their head (head tripping), which has been for all of us our experience in life from the moment neurosis set in.

      If you are still curious about me, I wrote a book. “Feeling Therapy; Real Health: Yourself” as a DIY book for all and every person wanting this therapy, but for reasons are unable to get over to LA or afford it. Part I of the book is ‘a brief, in my own words iteration of Primal Theory’. Janov read the book and stated “Good and succinct and fine book” Seemingly, he did not object to, ‘in my own words brief iteration of Primal Theory’. I have offered a free e-copy of this book to anyone on the blog or the Primal Support Group blog, if they will supply me with an email address … mine being:-jackwaddington@yahoo.com. You too would be welcome to a free e-copy.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        I suppose Janov’s whole ‘fame’ kind of lives or dies with the so called difference between ‘re-living’ and ‘remembering’. Sounds good in theory, in practice it is a meaningless distinction and to ‘try’ for the former and ‘ignore’ the latter has only led many people including you imo into a read dead end. For myself I prefer to put the emphasis if anything more the other way around by ‘remembering’ we can be accountable, fair, giving all sides their due by putting the emphasis on ‘re-living’ basically narcissism, egotism and selfishness are being encouraged as we can see with you all the time. Janov and you would like to think it is all some kind of misunderstanding or even plot not to give him his due I think it is more of a case of a promising idea has serious drawbacks and that is evident to the ‘world’ and to the more ‘honest’ people in primal itself

        • Patrick says:

          Also it occurs to me this ‘cult of re-living’ in practice encourages serious ‘drug like’ behavior. always waiting for the next hit (or primal) get that mood again, rediscover the magic of that first ‘hit’ Jack going on and on about his ‘re living event’ to me looks about the same as a drug addict going on about his amazing ‘feeling’ when he first took smack or horse. And then being intolerant of anyone who did not share that experience ‘you know nothing, you did not have that feeling etc etc. No I didn’t and I don’t need to good for you that you had some kind of ‘psychotic break’ and you lived to tell the tale but no need to dress it up as some kind of fount of wisdom. I don’t see any wisdom just constant hankering to get ‘high’ again. And looking at it as coldly as possible I feel/think a lot of primal people are in effect ‘addicts’ addicted to the feeling trying always to get back to that feeling just a thought but to me there is something in it. One day here about a week ago I had one of my ‘flashes’ where so many people here just seemed like drug addicts iike ‘oh i feel better now that I had that ‘hit’ or I feel worse have not had a ‘hit’ in ages some in cold turkey most just in a kind fo grinding misery. Maybe that is what life is but I think it is worth thinking about the drug like aspects of primal………….

          • Patrick says:

            …………..though someone once said “Reality is for those people who can’t cope with drugs”………………it was one of my favorite bumper stickers when I came here………….

        • Quote:- “the so called difference between ‘re-living’ and ‘remembering’.”
          The fact that you do not know the difference … demonstrates that what I said to Daniel about you makes my point. Patrick: you have now shown clearly that YOU DID NOT GET IT.

          Then you go on about who and what Janov is the the whole Primal notion is all about …. where are you at man??????? Did you go to some college to re-learn all this stuff when you failed at doing therapy … after spending so much money and time on it. You truly are a sad case.

          Jack

          • Patrick says:

            I spent a lot less money and time on it than you did. Once you told me if I remember correctly you spent something around $100K on PT I spent maybe total $10K. So that’s 10:1

            After less than 6 months at the PI in the late ’70’s it was clear to me the ‘techniques’ there were beyond bad esp the groups. So I ‘left’ in fairly short order. It’s true I have ‘come back’ and mostly just on the blog. And that has suited me and helped me very much. I always give Gretchen her props for doing that she has achieved more by far than Janov with his ‘controlled’ blog.But in terms of time spent how long have you been at it now 35 years maybe. So again if you even want to quantify the time yours is again at least 10:!

            So you maybe as usual talking about yourself dude as for me don’t worry about me being a ‘sad case’ I think for myself , I express myself as truthfully as possible, all around I feel I am BEING myself. So spare your crocodile tears because that is what they are for someone else.

            I am preparing to spend the Summer in Ireland and I have some very interesting things to do there………………………hope you have a good Summer repeating and pounding away on your repetitive drum. If you want to make yourself a ‘groupie’ for some other thinker or writer and a ‘failed” one imo that’s you but for sure it’s not me. Each person to his own another simple lesson you seem to have a problem with. I am tempted to say you are a ‘sad case’ but I will leave poison like that to you……………

            • Quote:- “I spent a lot less money and time on it than you did.”

              Correct: but your time and money, according to you was wasted. My ten time more was very productive, unbeknowing to you, in spite of you being so convinced that you know ALL about me.

              Not only did I spend the last 35 years FEELING and EXPRESSING them, BUT I will be spending the rest of my life doing the same. It’s not pounding a drum … but then if that’s how it comes accross to you so-be-it. Meantime, hope you have fun in Ireland and get done the things you plan on. I have no doubt you’ll be taking your lap top with you; so you’ll be able to continue “pontificating” here on the blog … in spite of it all being a fraud to you.

              Jack

      • Daniel says:

        Jack, I didn’t feel like answering your questions because you personally attacked me, my skills and my education. You may have disagreed with what I had to say but instead of grappling with the message you went for the messenger, and with savage force.

        But since you’re asking again I’ll answer your original question that was:

        Have you EVER experience a re-living of your own baby-hood? If not; I will take a guess and suggest like the other blogger here that also failed to do the therapy..

        .
        No. I haven’t re-experienced my baby-hood in the way I think you’re suggesting. The question sounds rather like, “did you ever go Clear?” If this makes me a failure in therapy, which indicates that some people fail at it or, in the language of the current blog post, they were never able to feel safe enough, then don’t you think this is a good starting point for raising questions about what really takes place with such people or what the nature of safety is?

        And I want to take this opportunity to thank Patrick who was outraged at the way Jack attacked me. Patrick also raised a good question, why nobody stood up for him when he was attacked by Jack. He’s right and in retrospect I’m sorry I didn’t say anything as Jack was really sadistic to him. I guess it’s what Gretchen said, that you Patrick managed to alienate us to a degree that when you needed us we weren’t there. I apologize for that because it shouldn’t matter.

        • Larry says:

          Daniel I think you weren’t on the blog yet when Patrick and Jack first started going at each other. It was horrible and shocking. We wanted them both to stop and said so. They never do. Patrick has viciously attacked Jack as much as Jack has slayed Patrick. They turned the blog into a toxic atmosphere. I said at the beginning of their encounters here years ago it’s as if they enjoy pouring gasoline on each other and tossing in a lighted match. We just can’t keep forever pulling them apart. One can only hope one of them will eventually learn the futility of their bickering (I believe that in a way the bickering serves a purpose for each of them). I feel that if the struggle between them is ever going to really end, it’s because one of them decided to stop, not because any of us intervened.

          It seems that you and Jack are developing a dislike for each other. I know I didn’t come to your defense because although I don’t know you yet I judged you were probably capable of doing it on your own.

          Jack and I were soon in a kind of war with each other when I first came on the blog. I learned a lot about myself through trying to understand him and the reason for our war. After about 2 years we finally met in person. I think each expected the other to be a big nasty monster. Now I respect him for who he is.

          Same with Patrick. His thinking seemed so strange to me at first, and I struggled with him on the blog trying to understand him. He’s shared a lot about himself on the blog since then. I have a better appreciation of where he comes from. I leave him be, I sometimes worry about him, and I really do wish him the best.

          • Larry: If I remember rightly when I first come onto the blog I read your current post and just knew that you were devastatingly greivous. I repsonded by saying that all you need to do “is cry and cry until there is not cry left” Gretchen intervened and stated that I did not know what I was talking about. Of course I had just entered the blog and read only the current post of yours, knowing nothing else about you. I certainly did not feel it was war. However, if you felt that way I accept that.

            What I did notice was that when Patrick came onto the blog with the intent of humiliating and hurting me. NO-ONE, other than Gretchen made any reference to Patrick vitriol … AND one blogger even though Patrick’s attempt to dishonor me, was great. by his stating all the worst he knew about me Fine; as far as I was concerned, and I did not respond to Patrick for at least 5 or 6 of his comments … knowing that he was hoping to get me into the fray, since I’d know him relatively intimately by working for him at that point, for over 25 years.

            I made a great effort to not say much about Patrick’s foibles, but merely quoted him and stated what I felt was the case in point. If that was seen as “War” between Patrick and I and that I was as bad if not worse than him, so-be-it. I knew that the most dangerous thing for me to do for me, was to be ‘DEFENSIVE’ Since Gretchen never chastised me about any of my responses to him I felt comfortable continuing and did feel that most other bloggers were claiming that Patrick was the one being poisonous to the blog. However, all that could be wishful thinking on my part.

            On meeting you Larry I thought our meeting was amicable and we met twice. I was never under the impression that you either disliked me or that you felt I was either vicious towards you or anyone else on the blog. The greatest thing I remember about our first of the two meeting we had, was that you were envious (so I thought you said) of me and my life and my seeming ability to enjoy it.

            Should you wish to correct me on any of this, please feel free.

            Jack

          • Patrick says:

            Larry – it actually touches me when you say that. I did feel a while ago also when I was discussing a lot of my ‘crazy ideas’ you did at least allow yourself to play with that a bit. I appreciate that kind of open approach and remember also how you sort of had to ;’defend’ yourself of the charge of even associating with me but you did at least as much as you could. That meant something to me as what you say here now does also

            Like I said elsewhere to day it is not that I am so ‘anti primal’ but I have issues about it for sure but a lot of them are MINE and it would be nice to be able to ‘explore’ a lot of this without the fear of this dominating and judge mental presence ready at all times to pounce on me. That is highly unpleasant I can assure you but whatever somehow I have drawn such malign influence into my life I can only keep going on to the best of my lights .I realize on some deep level I ‘like’ it here and now going to Ireland for the Summer I have some stuff to do over there and it would be nice to be able to ‘report’ a bit what is going on with me. And it means a lot to me Larry that you are open to me a bit at least and that you are not a member of the ‘shunning clubs’ Thank you for that and it does mean a lot to me

            • Quote:- “it would be nice to be able to ‘explore’ a lot of this without the fear of this dominating and judge mental presence ready at all times to pounce on me.”

              First off; I will remind you again of your behavior towards me when you first entered the blog AND that you have continued to do since. What you did then, and subsiquently and your “fear” of me; that even now you use the most disparaging words you can muster. It’s not getting the effect, I suspect, you are after, but like all neuriotics, you are on “auto pilot” and cannot stop.

              Because I know you well, I know what your ultimate agenda is, I am making sure that you are NEVER going to be able to fullfill it. It would be understandable if I was the only one that you have tried to malign. Sadly that is not the case, and you are not a pleasant member of this blog … and perhaps neither am I … certainly if Larry’s characterizaztion of me in his latest comment is anything to go by.

              I suspect your reason for liking this blog is that you are able to get aways with being repugnant. about so many things and so much. If you are genuinely interested in making the rest of your life more amenable come your 64th birthday, I suggest (for what it worth) that you start afresh and look into yourself. The hall mark of Primal Therapy.

              Jack

              • Patrick says:

                Dude your’e fucking nuts that was made clear to me today. You literally are some wacked out ‘religious fanatic’ just keep “Going Clear” lol

            • Larry says:

              Well I was not expecting that reply from you Patrick, and IT TOUCHES ME! Thank you.

        • Patrick says:

          “The question sounds rather like, “did you ever go Clear?” Fucking brilliant IMO!!

        • Daniel: If you feel it was an attack on you then I feel that is (in Primal terms) something you need to investigate. I am aware that what I said was not complimenting you. Seemingly you were delighted that Patrick came to your defense. Since I did not know what your credentials were I asked. Later you answered. Let me state my feeling here about what I feel about Freudian and all subsequent psychological notions, until the advent of Janov … is/was TOTAL BULLSHIT.

          That’s my feeling and I am sticking to it, AND I care little about your education in the matter, since I feel the way about psychology, as I have just mentioned. I also feel it is inappropriate on a Primal blog to bring in all these other prior psychologist. Incidentally I had in my twenties and early thirties read almost all the physiological books I could lay my hands on. A great friend of mine was also interested in Psychology also, and we both discussed the subject at great length.

          On reading “The Primal Scream” I turned her onto that book and bought her a copy and to my dismay she did not accept it. She later took a course at a University and become a Freudian therapist.

          My feeling about you and your work, is as I stated in an earlier comment. If you feel this is disrespectful of you; that is your concern and not mine. Should that cause you to not reply to me that’s ok. BUT, as I think most of this blog know; I love the banter.

          Jack

  279. Phil says:

    Daniel,
    This clears up for me what you were talking about. I think it’s great if you want to air these kinds of theoretical questions. I have a better idea now where you are coming from.
    That is fascinating about the session you thought had went very well, but the patient apparently thought otherwise.
    Phil

  280. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > hey, I hope by all means you keep writing as freely as you have been writing so far, to me it is very inspiring and interesting!
    > we can only learn from comparing our views and different ideas, and I think noone minds at all there is talking about theories, and if so they can simply ignore it, it is a free world.
    >
    > maybe it would be even more interesting if you also include some of your own personal feelings, though that is completely up to you of course.
    >
    > I say it as I get the impression some of the topics, like the disintegration or the being too hopeful have some connections with your own personal story, but forgive me if I am wrong, or if this feels inappropiate, I am all on your side as you have posted some of the most interesting comments I have read here so far.
    >
    > so I really hope to hear more from you, if you want only your theoretical views that is already great, if you want to share more about you and your own thoughts and feelings, even better.
    >
    > i am still interested to hear about your views on desintegration being a separate set of feelings, and why etc.
    >
    > again forgive me please if I did misinterpret in any way what you said.
    >
    > I imagine being a therapist is a difficult but fascinating profession.
    >
    > so please do not censure yourself, that would be such a shame!
    > M

  281. Margaret says:

    > this is so cute, when I let the tab run softly in the bath, the tab is about a meter high, one of my cats goes close to it, and sits or stands up like a grizzly bear, hitting the running water left and right and left again, and then not only licks his paws, but also uses the very wet paws to wash himself, thoroughly, face, behind the ears, rubbing his eyes etc, left and right over and over, for minutes long.
    > too bad I did not have my Iphone at hand, but there will certainly come other opportunities.
    > cats are so different, some really love water, others definitely don’t .
    >
    > Otto, glad to hear your cat feels better, hope your dog recovers soon as well.
    > M

  282. swisslady says:

    Margaret, I like hearing your cat stories 🙂 When I first got my cat, Lea, she thought she was a human. She followed me around the house every step and wanted to partake in all the activities. She ate when I ate, watched TV with me, slept on my bed, played with my pen when I wrote, played with the yarn when I knitted…she even followed me into the shower one morning. She didn’t stay long! She was definitely a cat that didn’t like water. She liked going for walks on the tiled roof, climbed out of the kitchen window that led onto the roof and there waited for my return. She recognized the sound of my car and got all excited when I approached the house. By the time I opened the apartment door, she was waiting inside the door. She meant a lot to me at the time. It was when I first moved out of my parents’ house and had my first apartment and job in a different part of the country. Lea was my companion and made me feel less alone.
    –Bernadette

  283. Larry says:

    Daniel, the questions you posed bothered and confused me. My intuition was there was something inherently misleading in what you were asking. Because you seem very intelligent and trained and experienced in the practice of psychiatry, I automatically give you more credence than my own thoughts on the theory of human psychology, which after all are based only on my experience of living my life primally (ie very differently from vast majority of people living or who have lived), only on my insight gained from reading the Primal literature decades ago, and in the last 15 years from reading a few books and articles by contemporary neuroscientists and psychologists. But I decided to take the time to explore what I actually think on the questions you propose, and why I diverge from the deductions you arrive at.

    I disagree with your premise upon which you base your questions. I disagree that there is a time in babyhood when life isn’t experienced. I think something isn’t experienced when there is no sensory input at all of it, such as when a tree falls in a forest but no one is there to witness it in any sensory manner. In the introduction to her 2009 book “The Philosophical Baby..What Children’s Minds Tell Us About Truth, Love, and the Meaning of Life”, the author Alison Gopnik, a psychology professor at UCLA, states that “In fact , psychologists and neuroscientists have discovered that babies not only learn more, but imagine more, care more, and experience more than we would have ever thought possible.”

    It might seem like quibbling, but I disagree with your definition of a Primal as “a full way of undoing such a repression and liberating the shame from the hands of repression.” The process of helping the patient to become aware of and understand their defenses is not a primal. If the patient has the courage to understand and let go of those defenses, feelings that arise from earlier life painful events that were too overwhelming at the time to fully feel and experience are referred to as a primal. I think we do experience trauma when it happens, but not to its full horrific depth unless at a later, safer time in life we can return to it and feel it in a “Primal” (usually many series of them).

    For the 1 ½ years after the diagnosis of her stage 4 cancer, my wife gradually lost control of her life and health. We shared and made the most of what life dealt us right to her last moment almost 7 years ago. Through it all and upon her death and thereafter I cried the losing of her. I cried as much as I was able each time, but each time I knew there was still more pain of loss and more crying to do. Today in waves I still cry the loss of her, but the experience and feeling of loss is much deeper and more profound than what I could tolerate soon after she died. I didn’t repress a memory of her dying. I did experience her dying at the time and feel the loss, but not to the full depth possible. I was in a kind of shock. As I slowly get more confident in my ability to remake my life without her, I can experience and feel more deeply and profoundly the tearing away of her life from her and her from me.

    I think a baby experiences life. If something in its life is too traumatic, the baby shuts down body systems to blunt the experience of the trauma. But later in life that trauma can be revisited and more fully felt and experienced, as so compellingly related to us on the blog recently by Bernadette and David and described by Margaret.

    I think that for Primal Therapy to be effective the Primal patient has to be able to take responsibility for his/her life, to earn a living, to have relationships, and has to have the courage to take the steps toward improving the quality of their life. I suspect there are people who are too fragile to take control of their life, and who aren’t treatable by Primal Therapy.

    Finally there is your question “is the desire to be cured helps or hinders cure?” From what others have written in the past on the blog, I think I can safely say that most of us in Primal Therapy aren’t seeking a cure. We are in it for the relief that follows from the fuller and deeper feeling of resonating personal traumatic events, and for the personal growth that follows from resolution of those feelings. I believe that we see Primal Therapy as more of a journey than a cure.

  284. Cat is cranky from his anti-fungal rx and also from his fungus. so he swipes at the dogs from time to time, and got into a little tif with one of them tonight, but seems ok. he loves to be outside, today it was 100 degrees so we didnt go out till late. he will most likely miss Z when she travels to ohio with the kid. she calls out his name loudly throughout the day.

  285. Daniel, “the intolerable anxiety of not having a meaning or knowing what’s going on.” been there. been there as a baby, torn from my mom at age 10 months. and being that a baby at age 10 months does not have a lot of experience yet to even remotely fathom this devastating blow. but the roll of the dice from heaven’s hands dealt me this blow at just the right time of wonder years growth, in just the right life of having been doted on for those first 10 months, that i didn’t go psychotic or totally autistic or sids, but survived to have some good joyfulness for certain periods of my life, after things got back on an even keel. I think BB once wondered about why i didn’t go nuts, or something like that, and this would be my thinking as to why. i did not become the ax murderer, like so many of us do. actually, there is a significant bit of ax murderer in me, now that i think about it. oops

  286. Patrick, i hear once you go Irish, ahhh, cant think of anything funny. Actually, I think it was Yoko’s great great great grandmother who taught the Irish how to keen.

  287. Patrick, that is a great little song. More educational than a thousand boring lectures. I dont hate the English, but i do think that the imperialism of the Brits caused a lot of grief in this world, and gave a bad example to other nations who also wanted their piece of someone else’s pie. Now THAT is my definition of being HUMAN. In, my opinion, we are all thieves. Some of us get punished for it, some get exalted. Again, I rant against the “leaders”, i feel there are so very few of them that are worth a damn. Well, the rabble aint much better. hahaha.

  288. “I don’t want to do it!” Bernadette, you my new hero! Glad you got to that feeling. Very inspiring and real.

  289. Daniel:
    Your latest posts remind me somewhat of Thomas Clark’s essay on “Death, Nothingness, and Subjectivity”. I posted the link here on the blog a long while ago: http://www.naturalism.org/philosophy/death/death-nothingness-and-subjectivity

    Note that just because I am posting this link doesn’t entirely mean I agree with it; it’s for informational purposes only.

    Also, the story of the mistaken lotto winners showing that cerebral thoughts and info driving intense emotions (an example running counter to emotional trauma guiding thoughts): https://www.yahoo.com/news/powerball-restaurant-new-jersey-celebration-wrong-ticket-video-212840302.html?ref=gs

    I had some of the smaller details wrong on the story because I was initially relying upon memory to bring it up, but the premise still stands.

    • Phil says:

      Guru,
      I started reading the essay on death you linked for us, but was impatient and skimmed through it. I find it simpler to think I didn’t exist before I was born and won’t after I die.
      I don’t imagine black nothingness or anything else.
      It seems to me the author has found excessively complex explanations and thought experiments to avoid those unpleasant aspects of life.
      Phil

    • Sylvia says:

      Guru, Cute video of the lotto winners mistakenly believing they had won the big lotto. At least for a moment it released some nice emotions and joy and promise of a happy future that they hadn’t experienced in humdrum lives. Some people never dare imagine that level of pleasant excitement since when they were children. Yes, there was let down and maybe a little embarrassment, but I bet the emotions ran freely for a while. And they wouldn’t have had that momentary joy all together with their friends without the mistake. Nice to see people acting like children again. Thanks for video.
      S

  290. Margaret says:

    > Guru,
    > you asked Daniel exactly what I was about to ask him.
    > I wonder, Daniel, what made you feel all of the blame was on you for her staying away?
    > with what you said you did feel interested and empathetic with her, and good about how the session went.
    >
    > there are many possibilities for her not coming bak, even that she felt so good already about having spoken about things in an open way she felt like not needing more, who knows.
    >
    > or maybe you feel something else, I trust you are sensitive and can detect whether or not you did maybe try to please her too much or whatever, or can it be your insecurity colours your perception?
    >
    > sorry, not trying to fill things in, trying to help, but feel I am being pretty clumsy here and possibly saying inappropiate remarks that do not make sense, sorry if that is the case.
    > M

  291. Margaret says:

    > Guru,
    > I still have to read the article about death etc., but it already made me reflect on how possibly an early, or not so early experience of being in a deathly threatening situation, might be setting off the strongest defensive response in our systems, shutting off a significant part of our conscious awareness momentarily and of a large part until the feling gets resolved.
    >
    > still, and this is also referring to Daniels raised questions, I think it is more the extreme of a continuum than an entirely different area of what can be dealt with (in some cases) in primal therapy.
    > and what also crossed my mind upon reading about ‘shame’ is that during my therapy shame often struck me as a kind of secondary feeling, a feeling that is superimposed on us for having or expressing another feeling like need, sadness or anger.
    >
    > that is the one feeling, shame I mean, I have at some points upon becoming conscious of it, have been able to simply turn off as unnecessary.
    > I specially remember Barry at one of his best moments, when i was sitting on the floor talking about my need and feling miserable about having it, turning to me and saying:’you ought to be ashamed of yourself!’
    > some people in the group seemed puzzled, but it instantly made my head come up, and made all kinds of wires connect, maybe a first defense reaction, then the sudden insight that yes, I had been feeling ashamed indeed about simply needing, and no, that should not be the case, there was nothing there to be ashamed about.
    > and the feling of shame just fell off my shoulders and I could sit up and feel it was ok to feel my need.
    >
    > on some other occasions it was good to remind myself of some shame and then to be able to let it go once more.
    >
    > but of course I can imagine when there is a very strong imprint of inflicted shame it might be more pervasive and harder to deal with.
    >
    > I know on some levels I am still not through with it myself.
    > M

  292. Margaret says:

    > Guru,
    > I have read part of the paper, enough to know it reminds me of a book I have read of dr. Metzinger, ‘The ego tunnel’, about our awareness and feeling of ego being a function of our brain activity, which of course makes sense.
    > I think I have wrote here about it, and about my own comparison of our awareness resembling a flame. it does not go anywhere when it gets extincted but it flares up again in the right circumstances, anywhere else.
    > each socalled flame of consciousness being aware of itself and in normal circumstances to some degree of its environment.
    > it can be regarded as a byproduct of life, going from plants, bacteria, up to more complex organisms of all kinds.
    > I do like the quote of when I am there is no death and when there is death there is no me, that sums it all.
    >
    > that might feel like a shame, but on the other hand, there is the feeling of ‘me’ all around, in every living cell, continuously being renewed and expanded, in our world d.n.a. being the carrying vehicle for possible reproduction, and awareness during life being a byproduct.
    > this awareness can be as minimal as responding to sunlight or keeping body functions going while fast asleep or in a coma, if that is still under the definition of awareness is of course open to debate.
    >
    > it would be interesting to look at what it is that makes us long for some kind of afterlife, I know in my case it is possibly a feeling of missed opportunities and a feeling of unfullfillment, and that of course is more a matter of having to deal with my present life than really a true need for some kind of aftermath.
    >
    > the idea is very appealing though, a perfect world and to be reunited with our loved ones who would then also be perfect sort of, that would indeed be very nice, but well, then what, we go walking about forever to meet new people? it would otherwise risk to get pretty boring..
    > of course I am simplyfying, just thoughts crossing my mind.
    >
    > I do catch myself still getting emotional support occasionally of picturing my lost loved ones still there somehow and able to hear what I share with them, but that is mostly a mental construction helping me to feel what I need to feel.
    >
    > this world being it, with all its grandour and all its unpleasant and painful sides, is kind of a sad and at the same time peaceful acceptation..
    >
    > also an interesting topic of thought..
    > thanks for the link, Guru.
    > M

    • Margaret: I can’t say much right now because I am a bit preoccupied with other things, but I wanted to note I contacted Mr. Clark via email last year and he clarified for me that he believes brain death is indeed the end of all our memories, of “us”, our “ego”.

      What Mr. Clark is proposing is that we subjectively never experience a gap in our consciousness, whether it’s through sleep, being under anesthesia, knocked out, or what have you. By logical extension, there is no gap upon death, but instead a radical refreshment into a wholly different form we cannot understand yet. Keep in mind this does NOT mean an afterlife in the conventional sense where we meet lost loved ones.

      In other words we don’t remember nothingness subjectively, because nothingness doesn’t exist.

      If people want to disagree with the essay, that’s fine with me, I simply wanted to show it again because Daniel’s postings about subjectivity reminded me of Mr. Clark’s essay.

      Anyway, Margaret, yes you might want to read the entirety of that essay. It’s very long, but interesting.

      • And just in case you might bring up dreams as something to be remembered during sleep, Mr. Cark mentioned that dreams can be considered experiences themselves and therefore not considered “nothingness”. It’s the gap before and after the dreams that we subjectively skip through completely.

  293. Phil says:

    I’m driving my son upstate today as he’s finished his two week vacation at home. We will see little of him until Christmas. He’s ready and eager to get started on this summer’s internship.
    Such a contrast because I always have had trouble with transitions, people leaving, and going on to the next thing. It’s hard for me to let go, I guess because I don’t feel finished. That’s so much of what I cry about; people leaving me, when I’m not done, and never coming back. I’m not finished with them, I was far from being finished with my childhood, yet supposed to be moving on. How can I move on when I never got what I needed to begin with.
    Anyway, driving with my son will be fun as I will have him trapped in the car and we will be able
    to do a lot of talking. The trip back I’m sure will be sad. Later on in the summer he will have a car
    and will have to do a lot of driving, which worries me. Nothing much I can do about that, he’s a big boy now.
    Phil

  294. Patrick says:

    Kind of warming to the subject another sort of ‘drug like’ aspect I feel is this kind of lack of interest in the ‘real’ world or ‘outside’ world. Like go away, don’t bother me with talk about ‘politics’ or whatever let me only concentrate of how I feel and you should only concentrate on how you feel. Don’t bother me with talk of vaccines if you are interested in vaccines go on a board about there are plenty places you can go that this is supposed to be only about feelings. Dont ‘act out’ by bringing in you so called ‘ideas’ about things. Oh now you are on to something else (yes is that ok?) now you are on about how the world might well end leave me alone about the world ending that can only be an ‘old feeling’ of yours. And though here we are all about the past don’t bother me with talk about history. Who cares about history in general only talk about your history if you are even able to.I don’t think you can feel at all have you EVER had a memory of your baby hood let alone womb hood like me I am a champion primaller and the world’s expert after Janov. I wrote a book about it that you should read. All your reading is just a ‘head trip’ you really should stop all that.Oh now your’e telling me this big thing that happened just in the next town to me is not ‘real’ who cares about the so called ‘truth’ of it I only care how it makes me feel. In fact I had a huge feeling about it yesterday are you going to tell me also that is not real. You should be banned from here bringing in stuff just to upset us and take us away from our feelings

    Oh well maybe that did not work so well. Didn’t quite come out the way I wanted it to.

  295. Margaret says:

    > Guru,
    > I am not sure whether you are aware of me agreeing with you and dr. clarke. i do.
    >
    > Phil,
    > that sounds like a big goodbye from one stage.
    > it is certainly a long time from summer to Christmas as well to not see him.
    > what again was the speciality he will be doing his internship for?
    > I can imagine it must be exciting for him to start putting his skills into practice now.
    > do you stay there overnight or do you have to come back on the same day?
    > M

  296. Margaret says:

    Margaret,
    We will see him between now and Christmas, but only very briefly. He’s in graduate school now and has a dual degree in physics and engineering. Past year’s internships had to do with engineering but this year it’s about xray diffraction of an aluminum alloy in a particle accelerator. It’s physics and I’m glad he’s excited about it,
    Phil

  297. Phil says:

    Here’s a better version:
    Margaret,
    We will see him between now and Christmas, but only very briefly. He’s in graduate school now and has a dual degree in physics and engineering. Past year’s internships had to do with engineering but this year it’s about xray diffraction of an aluminum alloy in a particle accelerator. It’s physics and I’m glad he’s excited about it,
    Phil

  298. Margaret says:

    > I might have missed some of the author’s points in the further sections, although I do remember he mentioned some possssibly mythical aspects..
    > i tend to agree with Phil, our personal temporary consciousness although fabulous in many ways, is not something that seems to be designed for eternity, in its particular personal form..
    > i am not sure whether that is a shame or not, like, what are the options, to be eternally this actual ‘person’, be it only mentally or spiritually, or do we want to drag along an infinite number of past and future life histories as in reincarnation, conscient or inconsciently so?
    >
    > in my present course of evolutionary psychology the only matter of real importance seems to be passing on one’s genes, in a direct way by one’s own offspring or indirectly including relatives carrying all partly the same genes..
    > in that daylight we are a vehicle for the genes to survive and to be passed on.
    >
    > the consciousness of each vehicle might be off less importance than we would like it to be..
    >
    > in the meantime we still have our temporal awareness of our own particular life in a vast and fascinating world, which is not at all a small thing.
    > we do have a choice to try to live in a responsible way, both for our own life and the people around us, as for the precious world we live in.
    >
    > the mutual ancestor we share with other primates goes back about 6 million years, this is an old world, and if we mess up, let’s hope we mainly decimate our own species and learn from it, instead of wiping out all the other creatures as well.
    >
    > this world has survived other disasters, so let’s hope it survives us and moves on, with hopefully an updated version with an enjoyable consciousness still on it that can keep discussing these matters…
    > M is

  299. Daniel says:

    (WARNING: VERY LONG)
    There are so many issues here that I want to discuss, but first off I actually think that PT has something to say about breakdown situations that happen during infancy, it’s just that no therapy can ever encompass the entire human experience and janov’s is no exception (and I mean Janov’s, because I don’t know how therapy is conducted these days).

    Janov took a single concept (pain not fully experienced at the time it originally occurred thus needing full expression in the present) and wrote beautifully and meaningfully about it, extending it to all human malaise. His emphasis that the encounter with truth should be as full as possible is an important emphasis that guides me daily, both personally and professionally. However, while I agree that Pain is universal and plays an important part in neurosis, it is evident that not all patients can simply empty the ‘pool of pain’ and thus heal the split in their psyche and return to the developmental route they were supposed to take to begin with.

    Why is that? Janov understands the Primal Scene and the Pain that is born henceforward as something which is symbolized and then evident in the patient’s symptoms and behaviour which are now the symbols of this pain. That means the pain has been mentalized so it can appear in other realms of our personal existence (symptoms, behaviour). So, for example, when a 4 year old boy takes two horses and knocks them together his child therapist may think that he puts on a symbolic play where his parents are knocking each other, the horses knocking being the symbol of his experience of parents constantly fighting and bickering. Such feelings the child might have can eventually be expressed even if they are at the present unconscious, they can be stored for later retrieval, for instance in a Primal 20 years later.

    However, what if that 4 year old is using the horses knocking not as symbols but as a way to ground himself, to feel real, to create a sharp knocking sound to chase other unpleasant stimuli away or rid himself of frustration? Then the horses and the knocking are not symbols, they are products of un-mentalized elements of the psyche, they cannot be stored and therefore cannot be retrieved, for instance in a Primal 20 years later. I think that some states of anxiety and tension and rage in the adult are not symbols and therefore what lies underneath them cannot be fruitfully primaled, at least not in the “ordinary” way Janov describes. But, nevertheless they are the truth of the moment – sometimes much more so than the other stuff – and so must be dealt with if we are to follow Janov’s footsteps in his insistence on truth.

    In other words – and I’m probably stating the obvious here – in my opinion in order to have a Primal a person must have the capacity to have Primals. And if a person doesn’t have the capacity to have Primals then the first order of the day will be to help him or her develop that capacity. In a way this preparatory work is never finished, because we all have these un-mentalized elements all the time that need to be mentalized so they can be stored, create symbols and then be ready for full expression.

    So if you take a patient whose problems emanate only partly from repressed but symbolized Pain and introduce him or her to a process that is meant to exclusively empty out his pain as a cure, the other sources of his illness may not be addressed. He or she may begin the process trying to empty out more and more pain and at one time or another may realize that that pool of pain is endless; it is never going to be emptied out, perhaps because the pain is created anew or the source isn’t only that Primal Scene and its aftermath. Or perhaps the concept of the pool of pain itself is not accurate enough to be a working concept.

    Now if the theory and method provide for only this emptying out process, what is one to do? Well, one can always go crazier. One can leave therapy. Or in more favourable cases they can adopt the method as a defence, and now it becomes not a cure for illness but an extension of it, an acting-out where feelings and proto-feelings are constantly purged but never really dealt with and integrated. It may ironically become an anti-feeling endeavor whose purpose is to rid the self of frustration.

    There is nothing new in what I’m saying here, this is the well-known problem of ‘abreaction’ which for me is the starting point for all my questions. ‘Abreaction’ is very important to me because it’s crucial to find which of the things that are going on in a session, or in private life, are those that are really the truth. It’s very easy and luring to deceive oneself, I probably do it every day, and what seems right at the moment may in retrospect prove to have been completely wrong.

    If part of our illness comes from unconsciously evacuating elements of and from our psyche, especially elements that were not properly transformed into feelings and ideas, a part of us will welcome the opportunity to keep doing that in a seemingly therapeutic manner. While the evacuation, the unburdening of tension, may make one feel better for a certain amount of time it may still be in the service of the false rather than the true self.

    Regarding the anxieties centered on disintegration (and are mostly present in those states of un-mentalized anxiety, tension and rage I mentioned earlier) I think it’s important to note the qualitative difference between these two groups of anxieties – on the one hand the psychotic anxieties that are centered on the fears of disintegration and annihilation and to some degree may be evident also in all of us, and on the other hand the classic neurotic anxieties centered on loss of love, loss of the object and loss of self-esteem. If you take this difference into account you may see that creating a sense of safety for those having psychotic anxieties is understandably a trickier business than it is with those having neurotic anxieties.

    I know this comment doesn’t address all the questions that were raised and there is so much more to say, but there are always the next comments – yours and mine.

    • Daniel: You are so, so, so wrong on all counts and as I see you also, never really caught on to the Primal Context (notion). As I see you; you studied Freudian psychology and then all the following psychologist and bought into it ALL and are now playing the expert. You are the expert over your patients. Incidentally it matters little why you patient left and never came back. that is the only truth worth considering. I for one would NOT like to do therapy with you at all.

      Seemingly you have missed the whole point of the blog article that I wrote, and Barry’s response. The expert IS the patient and ONLY the patient. That is the brilliance and genius of Janov … which seemingly eludes you. allow me to make a few quotes from this your last comment:-

      1) “it is evident that not all patients can simply empty the ‘pool of pain’ and thus heal the split in their psyche and return to the developmental route they were supposed to take to begin with.”
      The primal “pool of pain” was a notion that Vivian used in the very early days with the idea that we could eliminate the pain of childhood for ever. However, that has since been dismissed as the hope form the very, very early days

      2) “Why is that? Janov understands the Primal Scene and the Pain that is born henceforward as something which is symbolized and then evident in the patient’s symptoms and behaviour which are now the symbols of this pain. That means the pain has been mentalized so it can appear in other realms of our personal existence (symptoms, behaviour). So, for example, when a 4 year old boy takes two horses and knocks them together his child therapist may think that he puts on a symbolic play where his parents are knocking each other”
      All you are doing here is restating what has been going on in cognitive and behavioral psycho therapy since Freud. All that for me, and I would guess many Primal patients, went out the window the minute that Arthur Janov witnessed Danny Wilson RE-LIVING a childhood trauma and came out of it KNOWING …. and let Janov, in spite of his 17 years of practice, that he, Danny, knew and did not need to be told by the therapist. Janov having at least the integrity to give him that right.

      3) “and so must be dealt with if we are to follow Janov’s footsteps in his insistence on truth.”
      Janov was smart enough and had the integrity enough and the brilliance enough to know that he, the therapist DID NOT have to DEAL with anything. The patient GOT it all for himself… via insights Hence expertise flew out the window.

      4) “in my opinion in order to have a Primal a person must have the capacity to have Primals. And if a person doesn’t have the capacity to have Primals then the first order of the day will be to help him or her develop that capacity.”
      It is obvious that this all YOUR OPINION; based on what???? you do not say. Primal Theory actually explains even where ones opinion stem from. So!!! Daniel your opinion is not worth much, as I see it.

      5) “empty out his pain as a cure,”
      Had you read the blog article thoroughly you should have understood that “Cure” is not of our ills BUT rather of Neurosis … the pathology of feeling Meaning:- the necessity to act-out our pain … instead of feeling and expressing it.

      6) “in more favorable cases they can adopt the method as a defense, and now it becomes not a cure for illness but”
      What constitutes more or less favorable (other than your own opinion????

      Daniel: I am not sure I am getting across to you OR, that I ever will, BUT I am responding in the hope that you are not going to be letting the un-initiated, be deceived by your NOTION of Primal Therapy … that I feel strongly is wanting.

      Jack

  300. I cried again this Saturay at the PI. As usual, I did not think I would. I was feeling bad before I got there, badmouthing Z in my head about how she gives me NOTHING. She wanted to tag along so she and the kid could go out to eat while I was at PI, since we only have one car. I really feel like I get nothing from her, but the level of bad feeling told me it might be something from the past. She was talking to someone on her phone when we were driving, and giving her whole self to that person, but I get ZILCH on a daily basis. Negative ZILCH, because she is all about herself and what she wants. I figured I gave plenty to her over the years, earning the biggest paycheck for at least 30 of the 40 years. Well that was the kind of stuff I got from my grandma. She put food on the table, and a few other things, but no support or someone to get advice from. I cried about what I can call the Jack in the Box years, mainly High School and then through 3 years of college. I made a good friend at JITB and he took me under his wing and helped me do stuff my brother could have been helping me with, if he had not been so self-absorbed in his own life. So my good friend eventually had to get married because he got his girlfriend pregnant, married and joined the Air Force. Another big loss for me. The High School years, no girl friend, days and weeks and years of emptiness, fill the empty holes with food. Stay up late while going to college and watch black and white movies on tv and drink wine. With nobody else, me and my bottle. Well I don’t feel like going on. Just NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to be gotten, culminating in the murder of my good friend. Tears and emptiness. Hard to feel the emptiness. Cant seem to get all the way into the feeling, maybe just 6 years of that emptiness can never be fully felt. But, tears. Good enough I guess. Maybe not take my wellbutrin next time I go to cry, that was a suggestion by LP when everyone was trying to get me onto anti-depressants years ago. Will get back into group when I can afford to go on a regular basis. I asm sure a session or 2 would be good too, but I am dragging my feet, so exhausted by working overtime. Did not work today because cat was dry-heaving last night a few times, hopefully he is not headed south. No more heaves today. Realistically, he probably has little chance of recovering from the fungus in his chest, even though he is happy to be alive.

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – feel free to ignore this question if you want (I really mean that) but you often mention how your friend was murdered. I find myself wondering like what actually happened how did it, who did it, why etc etc. So many books I have read over the last 6 months and I am thinking esp of JFK assassination mention almost in passing all different kinds of ‘murders’ also people connected in some way with 9/11 and other stuff too. And it feels ‘weird’ to me like the same questions I suppose, who, why, how etc etc. “Murder’ has such a strong ring to it much more than ‘killed’ it’s so ‘personal’ it feels and yet so IM-personal of course to do that. I remember as kids of around 7.y.o. my brother and I got fascinated by ‘murder’ we kind of kept track of ALL the murders in Ireland or at least we thought we did and I still remember that year there were SEVEN, that’s 7 total for the whole country and I do believe that was about correct (more now for sure). Anyway I am rambling but you saying that and not only this time for some reason intrigues me but as I say only answer when or even if you want

    • swisslady says:

      “Cant seem to get all the way into the feeling, maybe just 6 years of that emptiness can never be fully felt.” You are right, you can’t feel it all at once, it’s too much to bear. Keep crying, it will get better. One bit at a time. You are doing fine, Otto!
      –Bernadette

  301. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > Lea sounds like she was a fine cat, or is she still there with you?
    > my former cat, Molimet was a bit like her, she used to sit on the edge of the bath while I was in it, and one time when she was still really young I woke up and found she was fast asleep in the palm of my hand.
    > another favourite spot of her to sleep was in my hair, and later on we found our routine, specially in winter, when she curled up against my belly, always in the same position, me too with hand and arm against her hind feet, occasionally holding on to her lusch tail just for the nice feeling of it. then she purred and fell asleep with a typical very cute last brief high pitch sigh, a certain sign she fell asleep, at the same time of her purring stopping. then she would soon start dreaming, whiskers and paws moving and then I’d fall asleep and often dream of her, while maybe she dreamed of me occasionally.
    > it was so nice to wake up like that.
    > also each cat I had so far had a different set of games to play with them.
    > with one cat we changed turns in running after each other, other cats loved to be swirled around on top of strong paper bags, in the air of like on a fast sledge on the floor, they would go crazy with enthusiasm, and it was great fun for both them and me.
    > my former cat loved too to hide behind the curtain, and then if I’d move whatever around the edges a long paw full of claws would snatch out so fast it kept taking me by surprise, welll, whatever I used, a feather or something as that game was a bit too wild for human skin, and luckily the curtains are pretty old and thick material..
    >
    > with a pair of cats I had many years ago, I discovered a really nice game, they loved feathers as most cats, and I had taken a balloon filled with helium, and to a long string attached a feather, which dangled withing their reach if they made a bit of an effort. the balloon kept slowly moving around , and even when they were already a bit tired after catchin the feather, running around the house with it with the balloon hopping along in the air behind them, and finally releasing it again, to take a recovery nap on the couch, they could not resist it when the balloon with the dangling feather came slowly floating by again.
    > it remained a great source of fun and excitement until finally the balloon lost its ‘spirits’
    >
    > the cats I have now like to fish the paper wrapping of camomille teabags out of the paper bin, and run around the place with them, so I find them on the most unexpected spots. only the camomille ones..
    >
    > and I once bought infusion of what we call ‘valeriaan’, a herb supposed to provide a good sleep, but my cat loved the smell so much she tried to stuck her head in the cup of hot tea over and over, and got completely worked up, even biting my hands smelling of the tea.
    > I think it smells like catnip, maybe the same plant, who knows,and I had to put it on a high shelf and finally had to throw it out as I did not manage to drink a cup of tea as the cat would make it a dangerous undertaking, with the risk of burns for the both of us.
    >
    > i bought some real catnip for her, for an occasional treat, she got all excited at first with it, drooling and rolling in it and then usually had a long and probably pleasant nap.
    >
    > it is said it smells of male pheromones, ha,, that explains, haha!
    > sorry for the ones getting bored while reading, cat folks tend to talk about them, when another cat persons shows interest..
    >
    > I am smiling, so that is good!!
    > just played a bit of a game with my cats who seemed a bit frustrated because of the pigeons they see but that are out of their reach.
    > there are very small cat cookies, and I threw them over the floor, so they could make a fast running catch for each nibble, like catching a minuscule mouse..
    > these cats have not yet discovered there are occasional mice visiting here but maybe my new neighbours wiped them all out.
    > hope they do not use those new poisons, which should be prohibited..
    > oh, well, Bernadette, I have another story but I’ll leave that for another comment, haha,
    > M

    • swisslady says:

      Margaret, lovely stories! I love the balloon with the feather attached for a cat toy, what a great idea!
      I had Lea more than 30 years ago. One summer when I went on vacation to Corsica, I left her with my parents for the time I was away. When I dropped her off, she was a true scaredy-cats; she was so scared of a leaf that the wind blew across the patio, she ran at the speed of lightening inside the house, up the stairs, and hid under the couch! But when I returned from my trip, what a transformation! Lea had got used to being in the big house and had learned to play outside in the garden. Not only did she chase the wind-blown leaves now, but also butterflies and birds and mice and had learned to climb the trees in the meadows — She was so happy in this natural environment, I just couldn’t take her back into my apartment, where she would have been confined to a couple of small rooms and the roof. So I let her have a free country life 🙂 But every time I visited, Lea would come running from wherever she was, as soon as she heard my car turn into the driveway. I thought that was quite amazing. She would stay with me during the visit, which made me feel special, and I must admit, it was a bit painful to leave her every time. She had a long, happy life in the countryside, my mother was fond of her and pampered her, and she died long after I had emigrated to America.
      I will tell you about the feral cats that we took care of in Los Angeles another time…
      —Bernadette

  302. Patrick says:

    Daniel – I feel like saying to you I apologize for our crazy little family here.There is no way you could know just HOW crazy. Like an innocent you ramble into a maelstrom of well ‘craziness’ Anyway I do feel bad for you in that you genuinely tried to put forward interesting ideas and not only ideas you actually work in the psychology field. You really don’t deserve the abuse and nonsense that has been heaped on you.You are concerned with the REALITIES of trying to help people and not just being on some total ‘head trip’ to use a phrase lol that I suppose is ok for people ‘playing’ and having no need to touch reality.

    I appreciate also what you said about me it is rare for me to feel ‘understood’ here about I feel is sometimes very abusive behavior. As you say I sort of brought it on myself but I realize too I am not in reality so ‘anti primal’ it’s just well I feel Jack as a constant and malign presence hovering over and about me. I ‘defend’ myself before I am attacked why? because I KNOW I will be attacked so better get my punch in first so to speak. Self defeating I know and it does connect majorly with being bullied I only knew then that an attack was coming so I was braced for it still am it seems in large measure

    One other thing I have realized today is Jack’s ‘hatred’ of me in the end is not so personal. He can’t for whatever reason put up with any doubts about his Faith he is truly a religious fanatic in the way that term is used and it was interesting to see you get the SAME brunt I have had to deal with for over 4 years now directed at you and to me you did not remotely ‘challenge’ his Faith to me you were sort of thinking out loud and also based on your ACTUAL work again not some ‘head trip/wank’ Anyway I don’t know if you read or remembered something I wrote maybe 2 weeks ago about our ‘visitors’ from England and how I was afraid they would think of us as religious fanatics and I tried to reassure them no we are not THAT crazy though the evidence was there that we were. So I suppose in the same spirit I am trying to tell you don’t let it bother you, you for sure don’t deserve it and even if we are crazy we also are human and normal people. Though the Priest I am not at all sure of he sure seems batshit crazy to me

  303. I feel bad. fucking bad. oh well, no stir fry, but some other food not as healthy will put the bad down a few levels.

  304. some junkie put a lot of holes in him and who the hell knows why. nobody ever told me much more, and i feel responsible for knowing the asshole who got my friend the apartment next door to the junkie. they said my friend tried to help this guy. the murderer’s nickname was mad dog.

  305. Patrick, are you including the Irish killed by the English soldiers in your 7 murders? anyway, i thought of something funny to say involving potatoes, but it is probably not couth to say in connection with those tragic events. John O’Linain railed against dictators and spies who committed individual and mass murders, and yet it still goes on today. what a joke. what a piece of work is man.

    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Otto I suppose in the end ‘murder’ is always pretty much non glamorous. Just some dreary bullshit. For some reason it has a ring in my mind as being if not glamorous at least dramatic or something

      No the English soldiers were gone by then at least in the South where I lived so the 7 were just regular murders. We got into the details of a few of them and it spooked the shit out of me I think that’s why we scrapped that project and thought about football and stuff like that.

      Never be afraid to make a potato joke (Dan Quayle was mocked because he could not spell ‘potato’ hell even I can’t spell it either anything correct here is the spell checker lol But seriously have at potato jokes if you feel like it it will not bother me. I was a bit known at times for telling those kind of jokes and somebody wondered why I would tell ‘anti-Irish jokes and well I can tell you the answer “low self esteem”

      A short one: Dr Johnson an eminent Englishman worked of the definition of an Irishman and he came up with this

      “An Irishman is someone who does not know what he wants but IS prepared to fight for it” I can relate at times lol

      Johnny Rotten of Sex Pistols fame also sang “I don’t know what I want, but I know how to get it” Rotten was fully Irish btw though he grew up mostly in England but like Lennon (and McCartney – the ‘first’ one) we claim him too. Did you like the Sex Pistols or were you mostly Grateful Dead etc. It is interesting most people in the UK I don’t think knew that Rotten was Irish if they knew they might not be as cool with “Anarchy in the UK” This is the song also that has that lyric

  306. Phil says:

    Daniel,

    A lot of interesting stuff here. You said:.”……in order to have a Primal a person must have the capacity to have Primals. And if a person doesn’t have the capacity to have Primals then the first order of the day will be to help him or her develop that capacity. In a way this preparatory work is never finished, because we all have these un-mentalized elements all the time that need to be mentalized so they can be stored, create symbols and then be ready for full expression”.
    To me the preparatory work is getting on a path of expanding feelings even if it’s short of primalling. Trusting that disconnected crying eventually leads to connected crying. You talk about the un-mentalized elements needing to be mentalized as if what’s going on is all in the head.
    Maybe so, but other things have something to do with it.
    I have to talk about my own experience and it’s that I find the body element so important. What sets the pace for me is body tensions. It seems like my anxiety is stored as tensions in my body and as these are released, I’m then able to go deeper. Jack talks about full relivings, but to me, disconnected feelings, and partially connected feelings short of relvings are all helpful and useful. Patience is required to find that they will lead somewhere. I guess if they go on and on without progress, then that
    might be abreaction, which would be for the therapist to decide, I suppose.
    Maybe those people at risk of disintegration need a different type of preparatory work before being able to benefit from feeling therapy.
    Phil

    • Phil: to quote:- “Jack talks about full relivings, but to me, disconnected feelings, and partially connected feelings short of relvings are all helpful and useful.”

      I concur with that Phil. The re-living is what Janov termed “A Primal”. In my book I specifically mention that doing the therapy ones-self is NOT Primal therapy and that one should not attempt to get into re-living. If in the course of just expressing the feeling of the present, it takes one to the point of re-living (which I contend is precisely what happened to Danny Wilson) all well and good BUT it should never be pushed for nor, should it be ones goal.

      Jack

    • swisslady says:

      Phil, I like your comment; it makes a lot of sense and I agree with your statement “…but to me, disconnected feelings, and partially connected feelings short of relivings are all helpful and useful” — In my experience, the expression of disconnected feelings will eventually lead to connected feelings, and a well connected feeling (say crying) can bring as much relief and healing as a full-fledged reliving Primal.
      I can also relate to your statement “my anxiety is stored as tensions in my body and as these are released, I’m then able to go deeper” – much of my early pain, anxiety and fears, including birth trauma, are stored in my body. The only way to release it, is to let the body take the lead (trembling, shivering, shaking, convulsing, etc.).
      —Bernadette

    • Larry says:

      Phil, you are so much more open and expressive than when you first came onto the blog. It’s great to see more of you coming out.

  307. Margaret says:

    > why on earth would it be inappropriate to talk about other psychologists here???
    > Primal theory has a lot of shared ideas with other theories, and even if that were not the case it does make no sense whatsoever to talk about inappropriate when other ideas are discussed.
    > M

    • Margaret: Almost all other therapies are involved with analysis, going back to the Fruedian model. The others being behaviourism a la Pavlov and Skinner, seeks only to make the patient aware of behavior and then being aware, hoping that is enough. A la “Clock Work Orange”

      To and for me, the discovery of Primal Pain put all those other notions out of date and relatively useless, and I disagree that Primal therapy shares many ideas with other therapies. They are sort of band aids and effecting little and lead the medical profession in particular, to seek cure of the current conditions and completely ignore cause and then put research energy in that direction. Sadly, one has to learn all this other stuff in order to get a licence.

      Janov himself is preoccupied with just this point and takes great pains to talk about it. It was after all, majorly popular when the book first came out, but because he, Art, was reluctant to allow current psychologists to practice Primal therapy merely from just reading his book; most of the profession (being so egotistical and so into their own importance), then shoved Janov aside.

      There are examples of many discoveries throughout history where the same thing occurred Galileo and Copernicus being cases in point. Further, I feel Daniel is in this very camp. He obviously feels that his training gives him some special position and I felt, like Patrick does, that he was able to put his own slant on Primal therapy. I for one objected to that, and I guess Daniel now feels I disparaged him in some way. Had that been the case I feel sure Gretchen would have been on my case ‘tout suite’. Hence I felt his ramblings were inappropriate.

      Jack

      • Sylvia says:

        Jack, I think Janov’s recognition of the first line, baby feelings and gestational environment effects does set him apart from other theories. It is the brainstem recordings of pains, traumas that leads to many affects later on–phobias, strange thoughts, nervousness, panic attacks, obsessive compulsiveness. So if you really want a cure that part of the system has to be addressed. I think many of us here have touched on those powerful feelings in dreams or at the end of a sequence of a present hurt resonating down to childhood and baby time.
        I think Janov’s frustration with the cognitive school of thought is that they talk you to death and don’t touch on what power very early life pains has.
        That being said, I think a good therapist who listens to you and is non-judgmental and you know cares about you is worth their weight in gold.

        • Sylvia: I feel it goes without saying, I totally agree with you.

          It is sad that after being a best seller, and so much enthusiasm about his discovery and therapy that it was then ignored and not followed up from either the psychological nor the medical profession.

          There are perhaps several reasons and one of them being, the notion that feelings were such a dynamic matter in the living of life and that neither of these professions were able to get their arms around the notion.

          As I have repeatedly stated, all the great innovators and discoverers down time, have been ignore and often by as much as a century. Sadly as I see it, time is running out for us and there is so much now, especially in the light of Donald Trump and his wacko-ness, it’s possible that we could start throwing nukes around for the sake of nothing more than personal egos.

          It saddens me … the only consolation for me is that I have already lived most of my life and am now on the very last lap. Still! that doesn’t prevent me from feeling sad and bad about it.

          Jack

        • Larry says:

          In his article in “The Mind..Leading Scientists Explore the Brain, Memory, Personality, and Happiness” copyright 2011, Joseph Ledoux writes that almost all areas of psychology are reaching out to better understand the emotional side of the brain. He goes on to say “Cognitive scientists previously banned emotion from their field, but are beginning to realize that they don’t really have a science of mind as such, but instead a science of a part of the mind. They now want to bring emotion and cognition back together, and that’s a good thing”.

          I’m encouraged that advances the fields of psychology are underfoot and in perhaps another 50 years areas of psychology will finally catch up to what is revealed in the Primal Scream, and will finally realize that the Janovs were far ahead of their time.

  308. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > that story touched me.
    > she clearly loved you and you and your parents clearly loved her..
    >
    > it reminds me of my own two cats that went to live at my mother’s house when I planned to move to L.A. back in ’97.
    > they also came from an apartment, and she has a big garden and rents a big old house.
    > the red haired cat was very quick at going out to hunt, but the grey one was more cautious although he did go out as well soon.
    >
    > but one day I saw how the red haired one, Tjolle, brought in a still living mouse and dropped it before the grey ones feet.
    > that one took one glance at it, saw it move, and raced away!!
    > that was hilarious as it was so un-cat like.
    > very soon after he was a fierce hunter as well and my mom learned to put on her slippers before walking around the bedroom as half eaten presents might lie around waiting to be appreciated by her…
    >
    > as I lost my eyesight soon after, I did not move to L.A. and my cats stayed there, as they were fine and I spent a lot of time there anyway.
    > they both reached a good age, one passed away at the age of 20 in his sleep, laying comfortably between the pillows of the bed.
    > the other one ventured one time too often onto the street, after having been patched up a number of times, until he was a 1000 dollar cat, but that last time his hips would have kept giving him too much pain so we had to let him go. my mom told me after she took the decision, but that was ok, as all what mattered was for the cat not to suffer unnecessarily, and it also had a very good life.
    >
    > she also looked after Molimet for a few weeks every time I traveled to L.A. in the following years, the first time molimet came racing to me upon my return, put her nose against mine, and started really giving me a long varied kind of story with a lot of different meows, being visibly very happy to see me again.
    >
    > but the next years every trip she was more cross with me for having left her behind, although she came around after a few hours.
    >
    > after many times, when she would really be very pissed at me upon my return, I did not try to go to her, for a change, and soon she came up to me. I did not try to touch her, and she just stood there looking up at me, and gave me again a long set of meows, so very expressively showing various ways of distress, hurt, indignation, eve sounding like asking for an explanation etc.
    > I let her go and listened, and then she finished and walked away, tail in the air.
    > but after having expressed herself clearly in that way, she was not angry at me anymore, and much sooner than the other years I could touch her again..
    > yeah, even cats need to express themselves…
    > I still miss her..
    >
    > she had one particular game that was great to watch.
    >
    > I have a big old clothes chest in my bedroom, over two meter high, and standing more than a meter away from the upper post of my bed.
    >
    > that bed is two by two meter.
    >
    > she used to climb up the ironing board standing between the wall and the chest, which took a lot of clattering and standing on toes in tricky balance in order to make the leap up to the top of the chest.
    >
    > once there she would wander around proudly and pleased with herself for a while between all of the stuff lying up there.
    > then, while I was laying in bed, I could distinguish her shape standing on the edge, hesitating, looking towards the bed, and tension started mounting while I kept watching her, as I could still see just enough to see her stand out against the white ceiling.
    > I would lay really still so she could aim at a free spot, always on the bottom far corner of the bed, for as giant a leap as she could get, almost four meters far and two meters deep.
    > she must have known the landing surface being soft and bouncy..
    >
    > the first time I was watching incredulously, when she took off, and the shape of her flying literally over my head with her front feet stretched out forwards and her tail in a straight line behind her, reminded me so much of Batman that it really made me laugh.
    >
    > she took a splendid leap and gracious bounce, and was extremely pleased with herself, and graciously accepted the many compliments I gave her…
    >
    > she kept doing that same trick every once in a while just for the fun of it..
    >
    > great cat, she also tried to catch dolphins and birds on tv, first through the screen standing on her hind legs, then jumping on top of the tv and trying from above, then she actually looked behind the tv, isn’t that amazing???
    >
    > I look forward to hear your cat stories,
    > Margaret and Pluche and Plukkie
    >

  309. Margaret says:

    > Daniel,
    > I feel the same way as Larry did, you come across as adult and capable enough to not need us to defend you against Jack.
    >
    > you did get a lot of support about what you bring to the blog, I was a little surprised you seemed to feel so let down, that is too bad.
    >
    > and it really is not true noone ever adressed Jack about the interactions with Patrick, but well, Patricks style tends to raise more disapproval, but also advice and finally as everyone ends up being insulted after a while, mostly ignoring as he tends to spit on wellmeant words and to refuse to listen to the message, and attacks the messenger invariably.
    >
    > Jack only gives you his own opinion, which has nothing to do with other people’s opinions as we are all individual persons with our own views and ideas.
    > For convenience sake Patrik tends to lump us together but well, that does not need ore comment imo.
    > M

  310. How do the assholes always manage to get put in charge (“Even The IMF Sees 30 Years Of Neoliberalism As A Mistake”) ? And why are these idiotic approaches being termed as Liberal? Sounds more like Richman-eral. ah go fuck myself. nothing will change for the bottom folks. Economic war is more torturous than blood war sometimes. Ok now check me bank account to see if i got any money to go buy vegetables so my colon can last another 30 minutes. I gotta say just off-the-cuff stupid shit to keep me going.

    • Otto: That comment made me laugh out loud. So true; but I put it all down to “Oldrosis” and like you say “fuck it” … cos even after I suggested a simple solution all the way from the bottom of my alimentary canal; they took no fucking notice.

      So what the fukushima. Nothing changes.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        I wonder how we might ‘approach’ such a solution would it be ‘top down’ or ‘bottom up’ though I understand you have a definite preference for the latter lol.

  311. Patrick says:

    I was so amused and inspired by Daniel’s reference to “Going Clear” I started looking around on youtube and I found this. I think is pretty funny and entertaining while also being informative and ANY comparisons or differences people might find with ‘you know what therapy’ is strictly on them I know nuthin’ OK

  312. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > you are not well enough informed I think.
    > pure behaviourism a la Skinner has since long been abandoned by most, for an example, and it was actually Freud coming up with the notion of ‘katharsis’, by finally allowing and expressing repressed old pain.
    > other psychologists have at about the same time as Janov been exploring similar ways of thought, though I admit not entirely the same.
    >
    > but I did never say the same, I said some share ideas, and I am specially interested in finding the common grounds as they really do exist but are often denied by all ‘schools’ being very defensive of their own theories and approaches, while they seem to overlook sometimes they are not exclusive of each other but complementary.
    >
    > your refusal to even want to hear about what exists does not seem productive, ever heard of thesis and antithesis?
    >
    > if each theory would remain into its small niche without communicating and adjusting there would be little progress.
    >
    > primal therapy is great, and deserves more credit, but just for that reason it should not be afraid to connect with other scientific approaches, which it already does I think.
    >
    > finding it inappropiate to bring up other views here, well, I strongly disagree with that opinion.
    >
    > and it is not because Gretchen does not coment on you that you would necessarily be right or appropiate or whatever, again, imo.
    > with all respect.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      I agree with what you say here. Even if Daniel works in a totally Freudian way, and that’s probably not the case, I don’t see what’s wrong with having a discussion. The attitude of “I am right and you are all wrong” isn’t constructive, it seems to me. It probably won’t work to convince anyone wedded to a different approach.
      Apparently people are helped by various therapies although I never tried any other therapy except for marriage counseling.
      Phil

    • Margaret: I am not so sure that the Pavlov/Skinner approach has been abandoned. It’s actually used in the Criminal Justice System, AND is the principle by which most parents use in child rearing. My reading of Freud didn’t give me the impression that he did any more than allow “free association” then as a therapist analyzed it for his patients. I feel this was the ‘hall mark of Freudian-ism His most famous one was, I feel, being, Valslav Nijinsky … but seemingly to no avail.

      Equally, I don’t agree that other psychologist at about the same time as Janov had been exploring similar ways. Janov, as far as I am concerned, came to a very unique discovery that was so TOTALLY different than anything else in the past or present. Subliminally; I feel that is why most current patients came to do this therapy.

      I am aware that you stated “shared ideas” but again it was the very idea that Javov transcended the notion of ‘ideas’ and came to the notion that it was ALL based on feelings; and the the brain was initially an organ that did nothing other that organize the expression of feelings, as is in the case of all other creature except us neurotics. Then, owing to the development of:- abstract thought, mathematics and from thence into science, we went off track from the process of simply living life.

      If you think about it, no other creature gets into all the convoluted and complicated finagling other than we homo sapiens. I, for one, am not convinced that science serves us greatly to living a very fulfilling life. I would site Stephen Hawking as being someone so into his head about the cosmos and “big bang” theories to the extent that he lost almost all his motor skills and lives in a wheel chair. What kind if life is that??? … and what’s all this about wanting to know if there is another “fucked-up” creature like us somewhere out there in the cosmos. It’s irrelevant and serves no purpose, IN MY peculiar OPINION.

      If indeed you are interested in finding common ground I wish you luck Margaret, but to quote Janov “We are looking in all the wrong places”.

      Lastly, quote:-: “connect with other scientific approaches, which it already does I think” I strongly disagree. Janov, to and for me, made the greatest discovery that mankind ever made … or will ever make … Soley BECAUSE we now know something about ourselves that we have been seaching for, for eons. QED

      My point about Gretchen was that if I was being “disparaging” I feel she would have commented on the matter, as she has on other matters I have written. NOT that is either right or wrong.

      Jack

  313. Patrick says:

    Guru wrote this 4 days ago and well it seems a very smart and prescient remark. A lot of ink could have been spared and even if Jack seems to ‘lose’ he always wins at least for himself as he seems to crave the controversy, makes him feel ‘important’ I think his ‘book’ or now ‘;books’ God help us is going nowhere his solutions from his alimentary canal are seen as just that (some form of shit) he is a Prophet hardly even wanted within his own ‘cult’ so he can use the ‘attention’ Here is what Guru said

    “Jack: I am not going to spend endless time and energy struggling to untangle your manipulatively self-serving historical revisionism. It’s just not worth it for me at all. Good day to you, sir.”

  314. Patrick says:

    Sorry last one today (promise I think) but it’s a good one imo

    http://www.tomatobubble.com/id1014.html

  315. swisslady says:

    I had a disturbing dream early this morning. In the dream, a young boy of about four or five years kept teasing me, like he wanted to play tag with me, an innocent game. I half-heartedly played with him but was also busy with some other grown-up task like carrying a hamper full of laundry or something like that. The boy all of a sudden tripped on the stairs and fell backwards onto the steps. He cried out for help as he couldn’t get up again. I lifted him off the stairs, my right hand behind his neck, where I felt a cracked vertebrae. At this point a horrible fear gripped my heart, the fear that he might die right there in my arms. I yelled out, Someone call an ambulance! I looked at the boy’s face and thought for a moment I recognized him, but the face changed. The boy was alive but I was terrified he would die. I woke up with a horrible feeling that it was all my fault. I caused the accident.

    I had to stop writing at this point and lie down, as my whole body started shaking. I cried for a while, very deeply, and saying over and over again “it’s not my fault”, in my mind going back to the oral rape scene and half staying with the scene in the dream. It also occurred to me while I was crying, that at some point, I will have to feel the feeling “it is my fault” because that is the real (old) feeling, and thinking/feeling “it’s not my fault” is actually a defense in respect to this particular feeling, even though, in reality, it is not my fault of course. By saying “it’s not my fault” I am only asserting myself but I actually resist the real (old) feeling, which is “it is my fault”. I thought, if I could do this, it would come as a relief. But I am not quite ready to do it.

    The fear of being accused of doing something wrong – anything – is deeply stuck in my body and psyche. I have been aware of this feeling for a long time. My mother was quick to blame me for – basically everything that went wrong in my life, and then some. When my teenage boyfriend broke up with me, it was because I wasn’t nice enough. When I played race car with an old stroller as a child and pinched my fingers, and went to her crying for some comfort, she slapped me and said, I told you so! There are many, similar incidents that I remember, but there is something more insidious that I don’t quite have a handle on: I am guilty for being born a girl. Yes, correct. I should have been a boy. That expectation came from my father and carried over to my mother. There is not much I can do about that. Only feel the retched feeling that nothing I’ll ever do will ever be right in their eyes because, on the bottom line, I am wrong.

    Additional thoughts about the dream: it is interesting that it ties together two major difficulties in my life: one, the feeling of doing something wrong and feeling responsible even though I’m not at fault. In the dream, the adult me took on that role. Two, it also hints (pretty loud and clear) to the back problems I’ve been carrying around since birth. The young child in the dream could as well be me. I am fascinated with the turn my feeling adventure has taken. From the oral rape scene I felt recently, which left me feeling it was my fault because I let it happen, it is now taking a turn to explore the ‘guilty as charged’ feeling. And who the heck knows, how all this is connected with my painful back since birth. Of course, I can twist and turn as much as I want in the birth canal, I can resist being born until I get pulled out by forceps, but it won’t change the fact that I am born a girl. Guilty! One of these days I will have to face up to it.
    — Bernadette

    • Sylvia says:

      Bernadette, what you write is very touching and resolving by bits too, I imagine. Good for you.
      It’s something, I think, that moms should have trouble relating to their little girls. My mom had said in the past that she really didn’t know how to deal with a girl, but the boys she just let go play, and a girl she did not know what to do with. I have heard other women say too that they were glad they did not have girls either. I wonder if it’s because women sometimes don’t know how to treat themselves, how to be good to themselves and only see their daughters as their reflection. A lot of awkwardness going on with moms and their little girls who just want to be loved.
      S

      • swisslady says:

        Silvia, yes, I agree. In part, I think my mother didn’t have a good relationship with herself, she didn’t have a healthy self-esteem, and that transferred over to me. In other ways she was very good as a female role model, and I learned a lot of good stuff from that part of her. But when I say I feel guilty as charged, it’s more than taking on her feelings of inadequacy. At the time when I was born, there generally still existed this very old-fashioned notion that boys are more important than girls because they carry on the family name. The more boys a family produced, the more highly regarded they were. My mother therefore must have felt like a failure by giving birth to yet another girl (we already had three, and only one boy). And I only could have been a disappointment. As insane as this sounds, that’s what I learned growing up. Girls are not as important as boys. Boys can do things (like playing music) that girls can’t do. I was never told that I was wrong being a girl; I learned it by osmosis as certain privileges that my brother enjoyed were denied to me. My father not being interested in me for one bit also compounded the feeling. I have felt many painful feelings in connection with the pain of not being loved for who I am. What is important now is to explore the sense of guilt I am left with. Not sure where exactly that is going…
        –Bernadette

  316. Daniel says:

    Guru, It’s interesting what you said about the Forbes 400. It reminded me a good documentary I saw couple of years ago. It was centered around former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich and called “Inequality for all”. I learned there, among other things, that during the Eisenhower administration the maximum tax bracket was 90%. And he was a republican! It only came substantially down with Reagan and correspondingly inequality began to rise sharply since.

    Reich puts a very convincing argument that inequality is damaging and hazardous, and in a way even predicts phenomena like Trump. Inequality creates all sorts of tensions and turns adversaries into enemies. So it comes to Republicans hating Democrats, the citizens hating the government and establishment (because the game is rigged), and ends up with a Trump who hates everybody.

  317. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > Janov does connect with other scientific approaches when he use neuro-imaging for example or measures changes in brain waves or stress hormone levels.
    > that is neurology and neurobiology, being used for neuropsychology..
    > M

  318. Margaret says:

    > my first feeling during my intensive which took me by surprise, was ‘I am a girl, I am a girl!’, saying it to my dad, over and over and crying.
    > he used to disapprove repeatedly of me being too boyish, not wanting to wear dresses and preferring to climb trees with my brother..
    > as he kept saying stuff in a disapproving tone like ‘she behaves like a boy’ or ‘she is just like a boy’ it obviously hurt me and confused me big time..
    >
    > I have had recurring dreams in which love was being made and I was male, or in the impossible dreamlike way both at a time.
    >
    > that feeling suddenly grabbing me and taking me along so unexpectedly into crying about something I had not really thought much about before, instantly reassured me I had done the right thing coming to primal.
    > never again have I had such a feeling of homecoming and being thrilled at rediscovering the forgotten me as a 4 year old, as after that first feeling.
    >
    > I remember vividly the almost euphoric feeling while sitting at the Santa Monica pier after that session, feeling I had unexpectedly come home to myself, my very best and almost forgotten friend.
    > M

    • swisslady says:

      Margaret, lovely, very lovely that you were able to feel the feeling and remember and reclaim your true ‘little girl’ self!
      –Bernadette

  319. Daniel says:

    Jack, it’s difficult for me to have a discussion if I’m constantly dragged into court with charges of heresy and immediately found guilty on all counts, given the choice to either repent or be burned at the stake.

    But I will say this: insisting that things are MY OPINION is breaking into an open safe: of course they are, whose opinions are you expecting me to voice?

    I was sorry to hear you dismiss Freud et al. By the way Janov doesn’t. He has a 13 parts series on his blog about psychoanalysis. But even if psychoanalysis as a therapeutic method will disappear form the face of the earth, in 300 years’ time Freud’s works (some 23 volumes of about 400 pages each) will still be up there on the shelf next to Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Marx, and the rest of the great thinkers of our culture.

    Finally, you have expressed your concerns that the uninitiated might be contaminated by my words. You need not worry; just as Bogart and Bergman will always have Paris the uninitiated will always have you.

    • Daniel: All the money conversations aside, I am glad you decided to offer a fresh, independent critique of Jack’s writings. Patrick and Jack have been going at it for so long it started to become similar to two toy horses knocking each other anymore.

    • Daniel: I will start of by saying of myself that I love blogging, and I love the banter and this goes back way into my childhood. I have said earlier on this blog that on rainy Sunday afternoons in my home with my three siblings, father and mother, we would all of us sit round the fire, and he, my father, would start a discussion … we called them arguaments. They were great moment and perhaps the best I ever remember about my father. I carried on this behavior with my playmates and then later in school, I joined in the debating society.

      Why I am repeating this is to let you know that where my argumentative nature stems from. I used to go on may blogs and, for the most part, there were some very heated arguments that I thoroughly enjoyed. I have and I am sure I will come under lots of attacks on this blog and was aware, especially from retreats that there were many that were bothered by me; and said so in group. None of this ever bothered me to any great extent. Also the back and forth over the last three or four years with Patrick (I used to work with) also never unduly irritated me; rather; played into my desire (as I coined it) to poke him. I saw from the outset it disturbed Patrick even further, and, seemingly, got me on a path to continue the pokes.

      That, that appears to have bothered many. I can accept. I in no-way am looking for approval. I am in a situation with my boy friend who is for ever keeping me, as t’ere on the straight and narrow.

      So!!! from your first paragraph in this comment all I can respond to is:- This is something for you to deal with. It was not ever my intent to disparage you, but I do have strong feeling about the methodology of this therapy which I feel shows in the blog article. If you are indeed hurt by the way I respond I would suggest that you say so simply and clearly, as I feel that is the very essence of what this therapy is all about. However, there is a high possibility that I miss-read you and if that is the case; my apologies.

      Quote:- “…..discussion if I’m constantly dragged into court with charges of heresy and immediately found guilty on all counts, given the choice to either repent or be burned at the stake.” Obviously those are very harsh words for you to be feeling about it.

      Agreed;- having to constantly say “in my opinion” and/or “my feeling” is somewhat redundant as it should go without saying, it is always the case with everyone.

      The next question regarding Freud is that Janov stated clearly that he felt he, Freud, was a genius, but left us with the legacy of it all being in the mind; or words to that effect.

      For me Janov made redundant all the psychologist before him; BUT I grant, without Freud there would never have been a Janov. However if there is a revival and a critical mass that now begins to accept Primal Theory; I feel Freud will NOT remain important in the history books other than he was the one that coined “Neurosis”, BUT never defined it. Hence my current dismissal of him and most psycho therapist since. Just my strong feeling, and makes so many things that we have considered important to fall way back into the background.

      Lastly; the word “contaminated” seems to me that perhaps you were angry about much of what I wrote. Meantime I liked it that you feel:- the uninitiated will always have me … but not sure it’s true.

      Jack

    • Phil says:

      Daniel
      I’ve understood that many of Freud’s ideas and theories have been discredited. Penis envy is a famous example. It could be that his books won’t have a place on the book shelves of the future. He did a lot of writing, but how much of it truly applies.
      Of course, Janov’s writings have had little acceptance.
      I haven’t read Janov’s 13 part series on psychoanalysis, but my guess would be it isn’t full of praise for that therapeutic method.
      Phil

  320. swisslady says:

    Daniel, I’m always interested in reading your posts, although since I don’t have any academic knowledge or training in psychology, I can only speak from my Primal experiences and offer my opinion based on my life experiences. You write:

    “So if you take a patient whose problems emanate only partly from repressed but symbolized Pain and introduce him or her to a process that is meant to exclusively empty out his pain as a cure, the other sources of his illness may not be addressed. He or she may begin the process trying to empty out more and more pain and at one time or another may realize that that pool of pain is endless; it is never going to be emptied out, perhaps because the pain is created anew or the source isn’t only that Primal Scene and its aftermath. Or perhaps the concept of the pool of pain itself is not accurate enough to be a working concept.”

    There comes a time when the patient must tie together the past trauma with the present trigger. I think that’s what in Primal we call integration, if I’m not mistaken. I agree with you that should the patient exclusively keep feeling the old trauma over and over again, without connecting it to the present, the feeling could go on forever. There might be patients who are not willing to look at the present, at a potential new cause because the realization that they subconsciously might be recreating their old trauma in the present is too painful to acknowledge. Ideally, the patient has to work from both ends, the old feeling and the present trigger. In that process, the patient not only feels the old feeling but also has to look at her present life and assess whether change in behavior is necessary. It is a circular process. That many painful feelings, perceived in the present as separate feelings, can tie back to the same traumatic incident in the past goes without saying.

    Getting better and understanding myself better and becoming a better person is a long and intricate process. I have accepted it as one of my life’s purposes. It is valuable to me to figure out and understand the dynamics and affects of pain and fear myself, as opposed to, for example, having a behavioral therapist tell me to act in a certain way in order to ‘function better’ in life. Even though, that said, there are times when I have to act in a certain way in order to cope with a present situation. The phrase “fake it till you make it” was for a long time my modus operandi out of necessity, but I also used it as a tool. Because acting like that inevitably triggered more old stuff.

    Having made a commitment to the primal process doesn’t mean I deny the present situation. To the contrary, it takes a conscious acknowledging, if a situation is to be perceived as painful or frightening. Denial of pain or fear is often so ingrained in our behavior that it takes skill to detect it and acknowledge it. More often than not, present pain or fear is an indication of underlying pain. And after dealing with the underlying pain, it inevitably changes something in my current psychological state, which in turn might lead to looking at a present situation in a different, more creative way, and that might lead to a change in behavior. Or simply, after the underlying pain has been addressed, the current situation appears less painful and less frightening, which then frees me up to be ‘me’ as I should have been, had I not been traumatized in the first place. ‘Getting better’ is a process; it cannot be, what many think or might want, an overnight solution or fix. We are damaged, we face it, integrate it, and then continue our lives with the full understanding of what happened to us and the damage that it did.

    However important the primal feeling process is for me, it is not by far the only process that I have adopted to improve myself. I also find it very important to watch the food I eat (it can influence me in many ways); to exercise, do yoga, walk on the beach or in the hills in order to force myself to breathe and move consciously (because if I don’t, I tend to act out the ‘petrified’ fear state); to meditate, which for me is simply listening to my intuition as opposed to searching outside of myself for a solution; and physical pain management. As Primal is mostly concerned with the ‘expression’ of a feeling, I have also found other ways of expressing myself, for example by writing a journal or doing a simple art project. These activities, and other conscious efforts, help with finding my true self.

    Maybe there are other, quicker methods for coping with life and becoming a better person, in fact, I’m sure there are for many people. It just happens that I chose Primal for my personal process because upon reading the Primal Scream, it resonated with me. I hope I don’t sound too defensive 🙂
    –Bernadette

    • Larry says:

      Gosh, to me you are a voice of wisdom and insight. I’m sure glad Gretchen urged you to write on the blog.

      • swisslady says:

        Larry, if you honestly mean that, it is in such stark contrast of what my father thought of me. For the moment, I accepted your statement as honest, and wham! I was in a huge feeling about my father! Very painful crying. Why don’t you love me, daddy? What have I done wrong, daddy? Mommy! Why doesn’t daddy want me? Crying, crying! The realization, my father did not love me. Not one bit. I couldn’t do anything right for him. He made me feel stupid, outright dumb, I couldn’t do anything right for him. The only reason why he wouldn’t love me, I gathered as a little girl, is the simple fact that I was a girl. He took care of me, as he provided for the family, I never had to go hungry, he allowed me a higher education… but he didn’t really love or value me at all. Oh My God! This is so painful!!

        Forgive me for having doubted your statement for a moment. It is unfathomable to me that someone (a man) would make such a positive statement about me (except, of course, my hubby 🙂 ). I expect to be teased and ridiculed, taken for a ride, taunted and betrayed. My doubt is merely the indication of an old feeling. Thank you, Larry!
        — Bernadette

        • Larry says:

          Wow. I never anticipated you would have that reaction.

          In the process of working my way out of my shell, I had little choice other than be honest, Bernadette. I’m to insecure to be anything but.

          My parents were very much like yours sound like. They worked very hard and were good providers. But they were incapable of emotional connection and since last summer’s retreat I’ve been awakening to how much I needed that connection and how alone I’ve been all my life, except for the joy of sharing life with my wife, and then I lost her to cancer almost 7 years ago.

          I didn’t suffer sexual or physical abuse, thank goodness, but at 11 months old I was left in a hospital for a week in an oxygen tent because of undiagnosed asthma. Then at 1 1/2 until I was 4 I was left to live with an aunt and uncle in the City to get me off the farm and away from asthma triggers. At 4 years old my parents brought me back to live with them and my siblings in the new house they built on the farm. I sure could have used a hug from them, many in fact. to feel reassured that I was loved and belonged. I never was hugged by them, and I’ve always had to fight the feeling that I don’t belong to anybody. I also felt that for my Dad to love me, I had to be farmer material, which I wasn’t.

          Your writing touches me when I think of the little girl that you were having to endure your life, and helps me to look from a new angle at my life and my growing up with (or lack of it) my parents. I’m opening to how fragile and frozen I feel against the harsh vicissitudes of life, especially the tearing away of life from my wife and her from me.

          Many people come and go from the blog. I hope you stay a while (for a long time, actually). I feel you anchor the blog with sanity.

          • swisslady says:

            Larry:
            “Wow. I never anticipated you would have that reaction.” – Neither did I! Thanks for the trigger! It just shows how little it takes sometimes 🙂

            “In the process of working my way out of my shell, I had little choice other than be honest, Bernadette. I’m to insecure to be anything but.” – I’m not sure “too insecure” is the correct description here; I’d rather call it strength and integrity.

            My heart aches for the little boy who was taken away from his parents and home at such an early age, first to the hospital and then to live with relatives! Did your parents visit you? Did you know who your parents were? It must have been such a terrifying and confusing time for you.

            “I’m opening to how fragile and frozen I feel against the harsh vicissitudes of life, especially the tearing away of life from my wife and her from me.” – Yes! I truly believe that we have to look at those very vulnerable, very tender feelings ever so gently. It takes courage and strength to admit and allow these feelings. Honestly, Larry, I cannot imagine the pain you must have felt, still must feel, about losing your wife. My heart goes out to you!
            –Bernadette

  321. swisslady says:

    Interesting article on The Donald.
    Too Sick To Lead: The Lethal Personality Disorder Of Donald Trump

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-north-patterson/too-sick-to-lead-the-leth_b_10086768.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics

    • Sylvia says:

      Scary article, Bernadette, about Trump. I wonder is Trump maybe getting dementia–how we could tell the difference.
      S

  322. Bernadette, I think you are highly-evolved. Hope you don’t mind me saying that. Like I said, you are my new hero. Hope you don’t mind me saying that either. I have always wondered what was meant by “integration” in primal, and even though you have written your take on it very clearly, I still struggle with the meaning. I have become less of a doormat than I used to be, but I will always be a doormat. I think feeling stuff from the past has had the most to do with any progress I have made in the present(as opposed to biting the bullet and stop acting out via will-power or whatever), and I don’t know if there is a different term for that phenomenom, as opposed to “integration, terms probably don’t matter. I think you explained it pretty clearly though. Maybe for me, it is being more self-aware; actually, now that I think about it, 10 years of marriage therapy with BB showed me that I am not the only one who was cuckoo/acting-out in our relationship. Also, being in group and hearing from other people who have similar issues in their present lives. But obviously I have been unable to use any such knowledge to extricate myself from this insane life-style, my “stuck” and “hopeless” old-feelings are too big. Also throw children into the mix and it is a whole other ballgame. Plus my own personal PT has been too spotty, too infrequent, especially in the beginning of my therapy. And I am very very diseased. I think GB has said something like, stop doing the acting-out and then you will have the feeling (let me know if I have misquoted on this). Don’t drink coffee before group or overeat before group? Probably not something I can do. Well, today I feel generally BAD after yesterday’s crying over the emptiness and getting so very little during my 6 years of High School and post-High school life. I have been crying about this period in my life for the past few months, along with other time periods in my life generally related to death, loss, emptiness, nothingness, mostly triggered by the horrific loss of 3 pets in the last year, also me getting old and anticipating the ultimate loss. I am sure there will be more crying over this stuff. My wife was kind of badgering me to talk to her today, why i was so unapproachable (more than usual) in the car after we dropped the kid off at his apartment. I really could not say much and definitely nothing about what I have been feeling the past months at the PI. She thinks I don’t’ like her and pretty much I feel that way. I feel like I get nothing from her in this relationship, which was pretty much what i cried about yesterday, getting nothing.. I think that her old feelings push her to act out by being stupid about money, to the point where I feel like I have been on the rack for 40 years, which of course is the story of my life even before we got together (getting little to nothing and losing whatever I was ever able to get). Even though we both have been in PT, I could not share why I was feeling bad today about those 6 years I cried about yesterday. Since I am not a people person, I have no friends in the primal community to hold my hand through this shit, and as I have previously posted, most likely I never will. Not to say people on this blog have not held my hands in spirit, but something sticks in my mind. I went to a primal party way long time ago, and 2 women were on the couch, and one was holding the other, who appeared to me to be in some kind of primal pain, some old feeling or whatever. Now that’s what is one major thing that is devoid in my life; being held and comforted, and of course I can see that being torn from my mom who was constantly holding me as an infant has made it hard for me to accept any touch from another person, especially now from my wife. She has often said I cringe when she touches me, and it is true, I often put Uncle Murderer’s face on her, as well as all the other caretakers who disappointed me in my early life. Just thought of a funny thing, I once asked therapist J to hold me in group and she refused. Well let me not curse that woman, that era is water under the bridge. BB has touch-comforted me, and it is always good to see a patient getting that touch in group. I doubt if I will ever be able to ask for that again, and maybe it is only given when it is appropriate. Don’t know. Another mysterious primal technique. Well I am rambling, cant really put this out too clearly. Having a cat certainly helped me get through those High School years. Donuts, too, unfortunately. I will try to continue pushing myself to use the exercycle and tony little, not sure if it is because my endocrinology doctor and dietician have pushed me to exercise, or the occasional chest pain wakes me up, or if I feel I might as well do it while I am outside with the cat for ½ hour, watching him like a hawk since that time he got his tail caught in something, and had to have it amputated, too expensive, too damn expensive. bye now, got to go do something for my poor wife, and i will get nothing in return. maybe i don’t want her to give me anything, i am thinking. Terrified to ask her for anything.

  323. I just want my mommy.

    • swisslady says:

      Otto, yes, that’s the feeling!

      I don’t mind you saying the things you said about me, but don’t believe in a second that I agree 🙂 As I see it, I’m just as neurotic as the next person, still deeply immersed in the process of healing. And for heaven’s sake, please don’t put me on a pedestal! Eventually you will find something to knock me down with and that will hurt you more than me. That said, you need to do what feels right for you 🙂

      More self-awareness, the recognition that you are not the only one acting out in a marriage, these are very important steps. As you keep feeling the feelings, the pool of the “stuck” feelings and hopelessness and the pain of loss will get smaller. Sometimes it only takes a shift in your awareness that makes things look different, and then you act differently.

      I don’t believe you are a doormat. I believe there is a lot of strength and courage in you, and tenacity and endurance. Otherwise you wouldn’t keep going to groups and you wouldn’t keep writing here day after day, telling your truth. It is the old feelings that keep you believing you have no strength. But it is by addressing these “stuck” and “hopeless” and “loss” feelings that will empower you in the end. You are doing great, Otto! Keep going!
      — Bernadette

  324. Larry says:

    Sometimes I tire of cooking for myself and eating alone at home. I enjoy eating out with friends when I can, but sometimes I go to a buffet and eat out alone. I feel very uncomfortable eating out alone surrounded by people eating with their family and friends. But today I didn’t feel that way because I had you with me. While eating supper alone at the buffet restaurant I got caught up with reading the blog, on my smart phone, and I didn’t feel lonely at all! I didn’t rush through but instead savoured my meal. Your company made it a much more enjoyable experience. Thank you!

  325. Patrick says:

    I don’t have a dog in the ‘fight’ in this discussion about primal v Freud and in general as little as I know about it I am not a great fan of Freud.but sometimes I read in the NY Times they had some kind of series called “The Couch” it was basically stories from people undergoing ‘analysis’ And it did strike me kind of comparing the 2 approaches there just seemed something more ‘open’ about these people. Or even following the ‘free association’ method well it seemed to lead into some kind of uncharted waters even the ‘unknown’ you might say. It at least at times seem to me to be ‘better’ than the kind of primal approach where we all ‘know’ or think we do what is wrong with us what is causing it etc etc.

    The feeling I got (sometimes at least) from reading the Couch well of more ‘creative’ people, more open to the unknown and therefore more likely to actually make a ‘new’ discovery about themselves. Also the general mind set that they ‘did not know it all’ about themselves I think leaks into that kind of attitude to the ‘world’ with the result again of a more creative and fresh approach to things.

    Primal and admittedly huge generalization here can be very narrow and ‘non creative’ and I feel it has something or maybe a lot to do with ‘knowing already’ what ails us or knowing already about so many things in the world. If you know already there is nothing to discover. So then so many of these supposedly spontaneous feelings are actually more a matter of going down a well greased track. I feel very strongly though primal has huge potential there is something about the way it has evolved that just seemed to have missed the boat on many levels. Do anyone of us even any primal people who have been a great ‘success’ in almost any field could be anything music, writing the arts business anything.If Janov’s ‘promise’ was really met I think we would see a lot more of that.

    I say this not to start another controversy and I do appreciate very much for example what Larry said to me I have no intention of trying to undercut him or whatever but I guess for me to be able to put myself in a position of ‘not knowing’ has been very helpful me in terms of actually finding out about things. This I suppose still has more to do with stuff ‘outside myself” but all of these things work together. We are always a unity of the outside and inside. I wonder if Daniel has any thoughts on this I mean this thing of ‘knowing already’ v ‘not knowing’

    Daniel you have no obligation at all to reply if you do not feel like it and I understand if you are wary of me given some of our go arounds about WW2 etc……………….anyway I do find this interesting how do you see this issue of ‘knowing’ or ‘not knowing’

    • Quote:- “I feel very strongly though primal has huge potential there is something about the way it has evolved that just seemed to have missed the boat on many levels. Do anyone of us even any primal people who have been a great ‘success’ in almost any field could be anything music, writing the arts business anything.If Janov’s ‘promise’ was really met I think we would see a lot more of that.”

      Yes I think I had one that even you, at one stage admitted. I feel I did a good job of developing a massive program (application) that actually ran your moving business in all it’s departments and sections.

      However, there is the likely hood you’ll either deny it OR suggest meantime you have changed you mind

      Meantime, where are your credentials to KNOW that the way Primal Therapy evolved missed the boat? Which boat. The one from Hollyhead to Dublin!!!!!

      Your authority on these matters is wanting.

      Jack

  326. swisslady says:

    Patrick, I disagree. I think the primal process can be very creative and in addition, it’s the opposite of what you said, it requires diving into the unknown all the time. When we recover a new trauma that our mind and body has repressed for decades, it is only because we allowed ourselves to go into the unknown that the trauma is revealed. It doesn’t just happen; it does take conscious effort and a desire to know and heal, therefore, create something new out of the unknown.

    You seem to equate ‘great success’ with producing something conventional like music, art, business, whatever. I don’t believe for a moment that great success only depends upon producing something tangible. I define great success as the ability to face one’s demons, to look fear and pain straight in the eye, to put every effort into becoming a better person, to dig oneself out of a painful depression, to crawl out of the hole that we were put into by trauma, to admit weakness and not-knowing, to let oneself be guided by intuition, and to trust an internal process to arrive at one’s truth. In the face of my definition, I consider primal people highly successful.
    –Bernadette

    • David says:

      Bernadette, I love your re framing of “success” and I agree with you. I believe real quality of life equals quality of relationships, starting with the most important one which is the one I have with myself. I believe that this process has helped me to be more true to myself over time. Well… first and foremost I believe I would be dead or in jail without it. Over and over again, faced with overwhelming bad feelings that have surfaced in me as depression or anxiety I have wondered what I would have done if I hadn’t been able to feel that particular feeling that was rising in me. I can understand why people without this process would be driven to self destructive behaviour, including all kinds of addictions.

      In regard to relationships with others, expressing myself directly to my parents in primal feelings has had a transformative effect on my communications skills. I used to be chronically depressed, one effect of which was a monotone voice. Over the years my voice has gained considerably more nuance In fact, when I reconnected with a friend of mine who I hadn’t seen for several years, she asked me if I’d been away to live in a foreign country. When I said I hadn’t, she demanded to know what has happened to my voice. This not to say that I don’t get depressed or anxious any more, for sure, I just don’t feel I’m living under the constant cloud that I was. I laugh much more easily too and these things have certainly enhanced my relationships and are, yes, a mark of success.

      The more of the past I resolve the more present I can feel with others and the more presence I have as a person. Issues still remain in lots of areas of course, I feel I still I have a hard time expressing myself when it comes to bad experiences, which I think is connected with the sexual abuse and the feeling I have that I was silenced about it.

  327. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > what you said in your comment to Lary, about having to look at these very vulnerable and tender feelings in a gentle way, touched me very much and helped me in accepting my own feeling of sadness without keeping on blaming myself for it and feeling ashamed and bad about myself for it, but instead gently allowing it.
    > starting to cry now.
    >
    > reading the comments I had a rising feeling of worthlessness, disposability, feeling left out, being ignored, unimportant, knowing it connects with childhood, and not knowing how to deal with it as mentioning them seemed a possible actout to get attention and something felt wrong about it so I decided I should stick with the feeling and hope it got somewhere, but at the same tie feared it would just linger and turn into a depressed kind of day coloured with hopelessness.
    >
    > but your kind words so full of gentleness allowed me to accept myself better, and to express this feeling while still crying, just for what it is, a lost feeling of sadness, loneliness, and finally some safe way to express it as you provided that safety with your gentle words.
    > gonna lay down and see if there is more to come.
    > M

  328. Margaret says:

    > wow, glad I did take the time to lay down,almost instant crying and then baby wailing,still going back to even earlier than I thought was possible.
    >
    > went on for a while, tears streaming as well, and I noticed how it seemed connected to the chronic tendency to sore throat I have lately.
    >
    > I suspect the nuns took me away from my mommy right after birth to leave me somewhere in a crib by myself, as the wailing tends to turn into sad hopelessness.
    > it also seems to be taking me slowly to another set of feelings that has yet to be addressed.
    >
    > thanks Bernadette.
    > M

  329. Margaret says:

    > thanks Bernadette, the very last comment of this morning’s 27 comments was yours to me, after that intense baby feeling of being left all alone.
    >
    > it struck me suddenly it is normal for Primal therapy to take so long, as it does take us deeper and deeper back into reepairing the huge amount of the damage done.
    > that is a vast project, luckily it invariably feels so right when the feelings finally break through.
    >
    > that feeling of being ignored can be so invasive I even start feeling it about one of my cats that is not so much of a teddy bear always welcoming and looking for cuddles as the other…
    >
    > glad your kind comment to Larry opened a door for me to allow yet another piece of my puzzle to slowly drift into its proper place..
    >
    > M

  330. Margaret says:

    > another room has become available in the care home..
    > just told my mom, and we will go there this week but it will be ‘not easy’ to make her dicide to go, despite she regretted having said no the last time..
    > it is getting a good time for her now to make the move, while she is still capable of joining the activities there and to make friends.
    > she has increasing mental and physical problems, is going to 86 so I really hope we can help her to decide on going..
    > it is a hard decision for everyone, the thing is you never know how long it will take if she refuses before another opportunity would rise, and if she would remain at home for a long time still all kinds of problems will rise more and more.
    >
    > M

  331. David says:

    I fell out of the loop here with the blog, feeling resistance to posting, to talking about myself and my past and stopped reading posts for a while. It’s typical for me in relationships when I start to feel close to somebody to pull away. Or as I’ve said before, to hold that person at arm’s length after attracting them. It’s something that I try to be more mindful of.

    I went back to my 5Rhythms dance class finally. I think the the last thing I wrote about the friend who had triggered in me all the sexual abuse feelings, was that I said to her we weren’t going to be friends any more, as a kind of tit-for-tat after she refused my advances. I thought about that and got back in touch with her saying that what I should have said was I needed time to think about whether or not we could still be friends. That it was just one of those complicated situations that is going on all the time between men and women that just needs sorting out. She thanked me for that and told me she appreciated it. When I saw her again at the class she waved to me and I waved back and things seemed to be good natured between us. Unfortunately, I could not just slip back into things as they were with her. There was still a definite tension between us and even something of a power struggle over who’s “turf” this class was now, but on a very subtle level. I didn’t talk to her much. She seemed upset about something, sitting out of a lot of the dancing and then finally leaving the class all together. I don’t think that had anything to do with me.

    Her rejection of me meant my confidence had taken quite a hit, and I went to the class with fairly low expectations of meeting some one new, although on this occasion it was really mostly about just being there and getting back on the “scene”. Still, I managed to strike up a rapport with two different women, both of whom gave me a very warm hug at the end of the evening.

    I really recommend 5Rhythms classes to anyone who wants to get out on an evening and have a great dance in a drug and alcohol free environment. I’ve been going to these classes for years. The dance is “free form”, there’s no steps to learn, the emphasis is on expressing yourself, expressing your feelings through movement and dance. The facilitators are usually skillful in holding the space, and the dancing is almost always satisfying and frequently intimate. It’s a great way to meet some really nice, interesting people too.

    • swisslady says:

      David, I’m curious what kind of feelings come up for you when you have the need “to pull away” or keep people “at arm’s length after attracting them.” I can relate to this dynamic; I have been doing it all through my adult life and have disappointed many friends that way.
      When I get to know someone, I instantly start feeling responsible for their happiness. Like their success or failure of being happy depends on me. (I realize it’s an old feeling). I feel sucked into their needs and expectations, both I can never fulfill. Whether they are actually expecting any of this from me or not, I don’t know. It’s an instinctual response in me. Of course the burden that I take on is too much – real or not – and I don’t want it in the end, hence my quick withdrawal. Also, I definitely know that it is impossible to give them what they need, which then makes me a failure and a disappointment to them and to myself. (Note: could this have to do with my feeling of never doing anything right for my dad?). I am also afraid that I could be taken advantage of. Like I am being used, which would mean, they are getting something out of the friendship but I don’t. By now I have learned that I need a lot of time for myself and have decided, I am who I am, so if I need my space I will take it without feeling guilty about it. It does however limit the friendships that I can have. Only very few friends can tolerate this.

      It looks like you handled the situation with your friend very well. I’ve heard people say that in general, it is easier for a woman to be ‘just friends’ with a man, whereas it is much harder for a man to be with a woman that way, especially when he is looking for a relationship. For a woman it is like hanging out with a big brother, whereas for a man there is always sexual tension/expectation somewhere in the background (nothing wrong with that). Whether or not that’s true I don’t know. I suppose it depends on the individual. In any case, good luck with finding that special one, I’m positive she is out there. The dance class seems like a good place to meet new people. I went to a similar class here in LA in the 80s and really enjoyed the freedom of expression and movement.
      –Bernadette

  332. swisslady says:

    Margaret, I’m glad my words helped you to accept your vulnerable feelings and express them. Well done!

    I have only just fairly recently allowed myself to feel these types of feelings. For many years I have been hard on myself, never considered myself to have a gentle side even. It comes as a relief to finally connect with it.

    Yes, if you accept that the primal process is not one that will end at a specific time, like when a certain feeling has been felt or a certain trauma has been revealed, but accept it as a process that goes on for as long as you allow it, then it becomes not only therapy but also a tool for continued self-improvement.

    I think it is safe to say at this point, that “the cure” in this instance is not the arrival at a certain point where we are healed or, as I naively thought for many years, have arrived at the place before we were damaged so that we can continue our life from an unspoiled place; “the cure” is simply the ability to feel.
    –Bernadette

  333. swisslady says:

    Margaret, good luck with your mother. It must be a difficult decision for her to make because she knows that she will never come back to her house. It is another final letting go of a piece of her life forever. That said, from a practical point of view, it is so important that she is in a safe place. She will have care that you can’t provide at this point. And you are right, she is still capable at this point to join the activities and make friends.

    I hated seeing my mother in the care home. But she was safe and they made her feel at home there. In the beginning she attended a cooking class in the wheel chair, but soon took over the teacher’s role as she didn’t like the way they were taught – so typical of her to be in control! In her defense I must say, she was a very good cook. She also enjoyed the exercise classes, she took part in the wheel chair, and really loved the many concerts they put on Sundays.

    I hope your mother can decide to make the step.
    –Bernadette

  334. I felt like a creep most of the day. Some thoughts about being called such at an early age. Being a creep was probably how i felt in high school. i have generally kept my mouth shut forever to keep from feeling creepiness and stupidity. Creep feeling has died down a bit. Had a big blowout with Z last night. She always wants to take her grocery shopping on sunday evening. I walk the dog while she is in her 2 stores, then i sit in the car with the dog, hoping there is something good on the comedy channel, while she takes her 2 hours to buy 4 bags of expensive groceries. As i said previously, i feel she gives me nothing and these things I do for her are never enough, and she asks for more and more every minute in the car. She asked me for my brother’s phone number to make sure he knew where to go for the kid’s graduation saturday. I said that info was back at home, and the argument progressively got hotter and hotter, about how i wanted her to stop asking me for anything in the car, since i was doing her a favor by driving her to the stores and taking 2 hours out of my limited weekend hours off of work, and never getting anything from her but more and more needs for me to fill. So I am still pissed at her and she is upset, whatever. Of course, I could see that my grandmother did the same to me, asking for more and more, and giving no comfort, advice, emotional support. But neither do I get it from my wife, just more and more need. Anyway, listened to Nikki Glazer comedian on Sirius, she talking a lot about sex with her boyfriend etc, and I am left., as usual, trying to figure out what love between a man and a woman is. Is it enough to sit on a couch and watch tv and joke around and then go have sex. I have no clue. Vivian alluded to a chemistry being needed., lord, our chemistry has just been noxious gasses from very early on in our relationship. Why does a woman want a man? I saw an article by a go-getter lady how she didn’t want to get rid of her husband because he was cute and funny, etc. ok, got to go pick up Z and get some cat food. Cant put a lot of thought or care into this writing. Will go see BB in a few weeks for marriage session. As I said previously, I hope Z goes to Ohio with kid and stays there a long while. Then I can do therapy without the distraction of acting out on her. I have had enough of this bullshit for a while.Creepy bitch that i am.

    • Phil says:

      Otto, I assume Z doesn’t drive, but maybe I’m wrong. If that’s the case, it kind of makes sense that you’d drive her. Does she get your food as well? Two hours is a long time.
      It takes me usually 1 hour total or less to do the food shopping, including the drive. I like to get in and out of there as quickly as I can so my time isn’t wasted. We never do grocery shopping together in my house.
      Phil

  335. swisslady says:

    I’ve been having a real funky day. First couldn’t get out of the bed – resistance! I have been noticing this for a while lately. I wake up early and I am rested and fit to get up… but I don’t. Today, in particular, my neck hurt when I woke up. I lay there doing my pain management thing, paying attention, breathing… and promptly fell back asleep. When I finally crawled out of bed, it was mid-morning and I was more tired than when I woke up early morning. I was going to go for a walk on the beach but as I got ready, I felt more resistance! I don’t want to leave the house! Anxiety sitting in my stomach, an icky feeling. A sudden weakness came over me, affecting my entire body. I felt like a wet rag. At this point I could have forced myself to go out, but I didn’t. I lay down again, feeling a lot of shaking and quivering in the stomach area. I could hardly breathe, short, tiny gasps is all I could manage. And then I fell asleep again, just passed out – woke up five hours later. At this point I am trying to make sense of my sudden weakness and seemingly endless tiredness but can’t. But this time, now late afternoon, I managed the walk down to the beach, although I still felt weak and had to force myself. I enjoyed being out but was glad to return to the house. Other symptoms: I can’t really think the way I was able to think yesterday. Yesterday, the words flowed from my fingertips; today I can hardly grasp a coherent thought, let alone an intricate concept. I’m not sure what has happened. I can only explain that I must be tired because I’ve had heavy feelings yesterday, about my dad not loving me at all, maybe the dream with the boy and his broken vertebrae is still bothering me, and physically having to deal with a painful neck and back myself can’t help. It wipes me out. In addition, it seems like something more is trying to push to the surface again. I recognize this “being tired like a wet rag” feeling but I can’t remember what it was connected to last time when I felt it. An unfulfilled need, maybe? I’m just letting it be for now…
    –Bernadette

  336. swisslady says:

    David, welcome back! I’m so glad you decided to come back to the blog. I liked both of your posts and will reply later, maybe tomorrow. Today I feel, I don’t have the mental capacity to express myself in a meaningful way — see my previous post. I’m glad you went back to the dance group and reconnected. I watched the video and I thought it’s a great place to go..
    –Bernadette

  337. Margaret says:

    > I feel very tense this morning, this being the day we will go with our mom to look at the available room etc.
    >
    > woke up with a sore neck and back and pain in my stomach.
    >
    > it was early still so I took a paracetamol and read this mornings comments, and finally by slowing my breath connecting it with the sound of quiet waves on a beach, I managed to fall asleep again for a while.
    > I dreamed about heroin, my boyfriend only had very little of it and I craved for more, but when he said he thought of going out to look for some I did not really want him to do so.
    >
    > boy I hope things turn out well, this is such a difficult step, even only choosing the right furniture for her room if she takes one and then having to tag all her cloths probably etc.etc.etc.
    >
    > am without strong painkillers now for a long time and it goes well, but at moments like this the thoughts of how nice it would be to be able to take one in the evening and to feel all the tensin ooze away, crosses my mind.
    >
    > still I feel not compelled to call the doctor’s office and ask for a prescription, I am definitely making continuous progress on this matter.
    >
    > will get together with a fairly new person in my life in a few days, as in a friendship date to get to know each other better, .
    >
    > all I want to say right now is he sounds really like a nice person. same level of visual disability as me, and a very positive outlook on life.
    > feel a bit excited about it in a pleasant way, as it feels like he is already becoming a friend which tends to make me smile..
    > might have to postpone it when the nursing home stuff interferes and already told him so, but so far we will get together next friday afternoon.
    >
    >

    • swisslady says:

      Margaret, let us know what your mother decided! And very good luck with your new special friend. It would be so good for you! And I want to hear everything about it…
      –Bernadette

  338. Phil says:

    I thought I would write here about feelings which came up in a recent session, just to see if that will stir it up some more. It was concerning a major childhood scene I have which I’ve always remembered but the feeling context was missing. It’s one that I revisit many times; a day when I went with my father to visit my mother who is very sick in a nursing home. It starts him telling me in the front yard of our house on a nice sunny day about going to visit her. I don’t remember exactly what I tell him but I think it’s that I would prefer to go play with my friends. I don’t express my very strong desire not to go and that it’s such a bad experience going to visit her. He pretty much insists that we will be going, and I can’t complain, I think, because it will hurt him to know how badly I don’t want to go to visit my own mother. He just doesn’t get it and I can’t tell him.
    It is a short trip in the car of about 5 miles and 15 minutes; the exact route which I remember gave me a lot of anxiety, and bad feelings of dread. Just entering into the nursing home was a bad experience. I noticed how all the patients were very, very old except my own mother. She didn’t belong there. It smelled very bad and just gave me a bad feeling. We went to visit this place many times. In the room with my mother, in my memory, it’s almost like visiting a stranger.
    I just stand there like a statue and don’t approach her or say anything, that I remember. My father doesn’t encourage me to do that either, as far as I remember. When I consider it now, as an adult, well why didn’t I just leave the room and building? No I couldn’t do that, I didn’t want to express anything noticeable, so I just stood there quiet.,
    This particular day was very different in that my mother actually took notice of me and spoke to me. There is only one other time that I remember her addressing me directly. There should be many other times, and there are, but I just don’t remember. She says to me “what grade are you in now?”, I answer “third grade”. She says “who is your teacher?” more or less those words.
    I answer Mrs Krepela. And that’s it. I feel totally alienated and weird during this conversation.
    She doesn’t ask about me, she doesn’t know me, she doesn’t really remember me. Also, I’ve had the insight that she feels very strongly the value of an education, thus that question. My uncle, her brother went to Harvard, and my grandfather who I never met was a PhD. engineer.
    This is a whole big mix of feelings for me in this scene. One of the biggest is in regards to my father “take me out of here, I can’t stand it!” “do something”, “I want to go home”. But I don’t say any of that, I’m kind of petrified there. I don’t want to be in front of my mother at all, she’s unapproachable, she scares me. I don’t want my father to bring me to this place at all. He is not at all a forceful or coercive person, pretty much the opposite, but I feel forced to go with him to visit my mother, and just don’t want to do it. Also, deep inside of me standing in front of my mother like that activates a bunch of other feelings, although I do a good job of pushing them down, they are there. “Talk to me!”, “look at me”. “what about me”, but in the way that I want, like a real mother. That’s something that I never remember getting. Also the two of them, my mother and father, are seemingly totally unaware of my turmoil and suffering. They just don’t get it.
    My mother clearly can’t; she is completely taken over and absorbed by her illness, and probably was incapable to begin with. My father is in his own feelings and grief and never sees what I might need. Also, he’s making me do something I don’t want.
    It’s the combination of all these things which makes this scene so traumatic and stand out in my memory. It kind of sums up a lot of things. One other thing though. My sister was not there, and was never there. She, being 9 years older, could be helpful, and at times I got noticed and received needed attention and understanding from her. But she never ever visited
    my mother in this place. She couldn’t stand it. She wasn’t even in town at this point.anyway. But it is part of the equation; she was never around when I really might have needed her; and although very important to me, after all was just a sister.
    That’s enough for now.
    Pthil

    • Phil says:

      Something I’ll add is I sometimes went with my grandmother, mother’s side, to visit my mother in this place. Nothing really different about that except less expectations about something coming from my grandmother. Although she lived next door to us and ran our household by cooking and doing chores, there was no emotional support for me from her. No warmth, no hugs, etc. She was there, which was a good thing, but she didn’t fill a mother role for me. She was also in the middle of her own feelings with all of this, and unable anyway to see or give me what I needed. But a stronger person, more able to take care of herself, and do for herself, than my father. With him it seems his needs started coming ahead of mine in our relationship. My sister was a strong and willful person, that I remember, so she could do whatever she wanted, and did. My brother was away in his special school, and never around.
      Phil

      • Phil says:

        Writing and thinking about all that did bring up feelings, crying, on the way to work as I listened to some helpful music. Maybe I’ll do more of this kind of writing.
        Phil

        • David says:

          Phil, I can understand that if your scene in the hospital with your mum was the only time she addressed you directly, as you say, then this would really be something that would stand out in your memory. It’s really sad. Sounds like writing about it here has been a creative, productive process.

  339. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > that sounds so nightmarish.
    > M

  340. Margaret says:

    > after having to console and cheer up our mom upon our arrival, as she started to cry and said ‘they’ were taking everything away from her, she came around amazingly well, and actually started to get into the idea of being well acccompanied with lots of activities etc.
    >
    > we went to loook at the available room, and it was with a very nice view on the large garden full of big trees and flowers and grass, which she liked, only on the first floor, which she liked too, above the cafetaria which was also fine.
    >
    > it is an older kind of room but not really small, and in the coming year they are going to renovate it into a room twice as big, with a personal shower etc.
    > we saw one of those new rooms and they are really very large.
    > she would have to stay teporarily in another room during the works of course.
    >
    > but she did remain positive all along, we went into the gardebm and to look at the piano, saw the group rooms and the cafetaria and the atmosphere there is really warm and not noisy at all.
    >
    > every morning they can do gymnastics, and every afternoon there is another activity they are free to participate with or not.
    > we have a lot of forms to still fill in, but it was good to see our mom can actually very well adjust to the idea even if she will probably switch back to asking why she can’t stay in the house at some point.
    > now we are reassured she can adjust well once she is there, and actually seemed to look forward to the experience.
    > will be a huge job to select what to take there and what to do with the rest..
    > told her boyfriend and her doctor about the current situation so they can support and encourage her as well.
    >
    > told my mom I was proud of her.
    > my brother was relieved as well it went so well today, while we are both aware it is not completed yet, we feel more at ease by having noticed she could easily like it there.
    > M

    • swisslady says:

      Margaret, I’m so glad that it went well today. Of course your mother is sad and will cry and will miss the things that are taken away from her. She needs to go through the process of letting go, sure you know. It makes me sad, reading this because it reminds me of my mother’s last months. I hope your mother can stay in the home for a long time and be happy there!
      –Bernadette

  341. Phil says:

    Hi Margaret,
    That sounds good about your mother’s reaction to the nursing home. I guess it’s in process then, probably a very good thing.
    Phil

  342. Phil says:

    I should also say that through therapy of come to see that standing in front of my mother like that, not expressing anything, is also an example of my passive act-out. Which is, “here I am, see me,
    pay attention to me, etc etc”. Actually often an angry demanding feeling when I connect with it. If I express that ruins that act-out, I want my mother to see for herself what I need and want. I shouldn’t have to tell her. Also, in earlier years when I more actively sought attention I got punished for that. All that was left for me was a kind of passive strategy, which of course, almost never works out in life. So that was an act-out even though it was my father who brought me there to be in front of my mother like that.
    A type of act-out I did with my father too, and with everyone. A very damaging kind of behavior to learn not to ask for what you want and need, and then even become unaware and disconnected from it.
    Phil

    • Sylvia says:

      Phil, I can see how you can build up a lot of resentment for how you weren’t allowed to show your needs. Seems you are on the right and very important track of feelings. Sounds like days of feelings to come–your work cut out for you. Great writing. Thank goodness for Grandma, though unfeeling, helped with the family.
      Good to hear all this from you Phil.
      S

      • Phil says:

        Sylvia,
        Well it’s years of feelings and years more because that scene is tied in with a whole host of other similar ones and part of a general pattern. You are right, thank goodness for Grandma, that brings tears to my eyes. She tried and always did her best, was helpful, and had a lot of common sense. In later years she was someone I could have good talks with.
        It wasn’t enough though, probably nothing could have made up for what happened with my mother. My Grandma lived to age 91, she was around a long time and I’m grateful for that.
        Phil

  343. swisslady says:

    David, I like your statement “quality of life equals quality of relationships, starting with the most important one which is the one I have with myself” and your accounts of how you have changed over the years by working on your relationship with your self. I was angry for most of my life, there was always a reason to be angry at something or someone. It became my natural state of being. I used to say that I was born angry and I was resigned to staying angry for the rest of my life. That’s until I was able to connect with the underlying feeling(s), which took a long time to get to, chipping away and chipping away, and then the anger was gone. I am not angry anymore. That irritating underlying anger that constantly accompanied me – gone. It’s easier to laugh and love and enjoy now. I’m not saying that I never will be angry again, of course I will, but the nagging, constant anger is gone now.

    That said, I don’t deny that material success can also be rewarding. My take is that material success without personal fulfillment is meaningless, it definitely doesn’t make us happy. The perfect combination of course is someone who loves doing what brings them material success. But so often people are focused on ‘being successful’ in a career and let the personal happiness and contentment fall by the wayside. Unfortunately, from the way the economic society is set up, most of us are forced to ‘work for money’ rather than receiving money for doing what we love. There is something inherently wrong with it.
    –Bernadette

  344. Phil says:

    David,
    I’m also glad you’ve returned to the blog. I looked on the internet at that 5 rhythms dancing and it seems great. The closest 5 rhythms available is in NYC. Maybe I could convince my wife to take a trip to try it as we are up for trying new things.
    In the past, it was pretty much impossible for me to just be friends with women with whom I wanted more. That wouldn’t work out for me, so I can relate to that.
    Phil

    • David says:

      Phil, great that you checked it out and are thinking of going! I’m sure you and your wife would have a good time.

  345. swisslady says:

    Don’t forget to vote today if you are in California!!

    • Margaret says:

      > thanks Phil and Bernadette,
      > I sure do hope it works out well and she can still have many happy years there.
      > once she was there for a visit with another relative and there was some kind of singalong in the cafeteria, and she was enjoying singing and it sounded like it was really all cheerful and warm.
      > it seems a very welcoming kind of home.
      >
      > I am curious about that 5 rythms dancing, do you dance in pairs or is it every one on his own?
      > what does the 5 rythms refer to if there are no particular steps?
      > M

      • Sylvia says:

        Margaret, happy for you and your mom. A relief that mom will be safe and well looked after. Sounds like an active and engaging home. Glad that all seems to be working out as you had hoped and that your mom is accepting the more social environment.
        My brother kidded me once about the ‘home’ saying they should have an extra bed for me as I was such a ‘mother hen’ always making sure mom was safe.
        A busy time for your family with the move. Take care.
        S

    • Sylvia says:

      Bernadette, I voted for the second time in eight years in the primary for Hillary. Maybe it will ‘take’ this time around.
      S

      • swisslady says:

        Let’s hope so! Go Hillary!!

        • Let’s not forget, though, Janov said in the New Primal Scream that the normal person has no desire to enter politics for s/he has no desire to run anyone else’s life but his/her own.

          Grover Norquist’s philosophy of shrinking government to the size of a bathtub and drowning it would be well-aligned with Janov’s political observations, wouldn’t it?

          PSssst….Hillary gave a speech about wealth inequality while wearing a $12,000 jacket:
          http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/7/hillary-clinton-gave-inequality-speech-in-12k-gior/

        • swisslady says:

          Guru, thanks for the article. That is One Ugly Jacket she is wearing and the hypocrisy is staggering, I agree. But I don’t see any of the other candidates doing any better. I don’t know why anybody would want to take on this job, it requires so much drive and ego to start with. I think HC can do it; in addition to drive, ego, and charisma, she has the skill and knowledge. Go Hillary!

          • Phil says:

            Hillary as the first female president will be a huge breakthrough, equivalent to the breakthrough represented by Obama. She is highly qualified and knowledgeable
            It is about time; women got to vote very late,I think it was only in 1920.
            Phil

            • Patrick says:

              I feel no hope whatsoever in what she will get up to she is a proven warmonger and killer does anyone remember her gloating as Gaddafi was butchered in a ditch (We can, We saw He died) and we can now see the ‘wisdom’ of her gloating a functional and ordered state (Libya) replaced by a nightmarish hell hole. And no ‘guilt’ or second thoughts than anyone can see. Only the determination to do it again in Syria and I have the horrible feeling one of her main goals and ‘achievements’ will be the wreckage and rape of Iran How anyone can have hope in her is beyond me. I find her to be a truly scary nightmare and more than likely if she is elected the final destruction of the Muslim world. And I doubt she would even quibble so much as that being her goal. Scary and frightening. Now on TV we have all this kind of American narcissism about the first woman president and all kinds of nonsense.

              • Of course; as you have stated you are a Trump fan. I feel that says a great deal about you … but then I have said before that you are to this blog, what Trump is to the Republican Party.

                On an earlier theme:- you are always going on about the failure of this Therapy as practiced … Little realizing that the real failure was in you doing it. “Blame the other, not you, syndrome”. I don’t feel there is one other person on this blog that thinks the way you do.

                Jack

  346. Phil says:

    Margaret,

    What I saw is that the 5 rhythm dance is free form with no steps to learn. Perfect for me! as I know no dance steps and have 2 left feet. David will be much better at describing it.
    Phil

  347. Margaret says:

    > Ok David,
    > could you please satisfy my curiosity?
    > I think you mentioned closeness with the dancing, which I can’t connect very well with dancing by oneself.
    > so how does it go??
    > M

  348. David says:

    Bernadette,

    “I am not angry anymore. That irritating underlying anger that constantly accompanied me – gone.”

    That sounds like really wonderful progress! In my time at the PI I got feedback from others that I was seen as a very angry person, but also over that period, that my anger got to be a lot less. Since I’m working through feelings mostly by myself, I find anger doesn’t come up that often, it’s mostly grief and sadness. I seem to need another person or persons (as in a group) to get to feelings of anger. So it’s hard to get a perspective on where I am with it. One clue came in a dream recently in which I came across a very angry teenager, and found myself relating to him like a very arrogant cop, snarling at him: “If you step out of line I’m going to kick your head in.” He responded saying: “If you try that, I’ll come after you and I’ll kill you.” What I took away from this is that there is a whole sub-personality living inside me that is holding my anger which has the power to sabotage my life if it continues to be repressed. I do find though, I’m aware of when I get triggered and can feel and express the anger safely so that I don’t get myself into trouble acting it out. I wasn’t allowed to be angry when I was growing up. Plus I’m sure there has to be a lot of anger around the abuse I’ve uncovered. Appropriate anger is important.

    “I’m curious what kind of feelings come up for you when you have the need “to pull away” or keep people “at arm’s length after attracting them.” ”

    I don’t believe it’s as you say that I am “feeling responsible for their happiness”. I haven’t really got to the bottom of this. I am able to maintain long term friendships, so I wouldn’t say it is something that is constantly sabotaging me, although it does sabotage greater closeness. It relates, I believe, to issues of abandonment, which would go back to my being adopted. I reject other people, or push them away, before they can reject me. So it’s a defense. When you wrote on the blog about music and wanting play an instrument, I wanted to respond to you as music is central to my life. I have spent huge amounts of time teaching myself the guitar and now have my own business teaching others.It’s a great job! But I put it off and put it off and then suddenly a week had gone by. Why did I do that is a good question. I was sorry to hear that your parents discriminated against you because you were a girl, that they felt you were somehow not equal or did not deserve equal opportunity. That is a very hurtful prejudice, and also, I believe, a common one. I can understand that watching young musicians on TV would bring up in you a lot of grief. One thing I will say for my parents is that they did take an interest in me and they did, to an extent, support me in what I wanted to do, buying me a guitar for Christmas when I was 14 and then arranging for lessons.

    • swisslady says:

      “That sounds like really wonderful progress!” – Yeah, it ‘only’ took 20+ years!! It’s true, you have to have feedback from other people in order to get a handle on it, but not only feedback but also push-back. My husband gave me feedback for a long time but it really ‘kicked in’ when he started to push back. A lot of my anger originated with the betrayal at three years old. It twisted my brain, I couldn’t rely on anybody after the incident, not even myself, because in the same incident I had to betray my own instincts in order to survive. It’s enough to drive one mad! ,

      I can see that your feeling of early abandonment (by your birth mother) would cause a defense of pushing people away when you get close. The feeling of not being wanted is extremely painful. It’s wonderful that your parents gave you the opportunity to pursue music. I love everything about music – maybe one of these days I will give it another try with the flute.
      –Bernadette

  349. David says:

    Margaret,

    “I am curious about that 5 rythms dancing, do you dance in pairs or is it every one on his own?
    what does the 5 rythms refer to if there are no particular steps?”

    You sometimes dance in pairs or in small groups according to the directions of the instructor, but a lot of the time you are dancing by yourself. The 5 Rhythms are Flowing, Staccato, Chaos, Lyrical and Stillness. These are more like four moods and music is played that corresponds to them. If you study music, there is no such rhythm as “chaos”, this is the creator Gabrielle Roth’s invention to help you through a whole range of expressive movements, rather than staying in one mode. It also helps the class to build towards a natural climax in Chaos, where the most energetic dancing happens, and then to fall away. The movement through the different rhythms is what she calls dancing a “wave”.

    “I think you mentioned closeness with the dancing, which I can’t connect very well with dancing by oneself.”

    Like I said you do dance in pairs and groups sometimes. And especially in Stillness, where the movements are very slow, you can get very close to the other person you’re dancing with and it can feel very intimate.

  350. swisslady says:

    Phil, it is so sad that your mother couldn’t give you anything because she was ill. And neither your father nor your grandmother could see your pain and loneliness. I’m glad you’re writing about it here.
    –Bernadette

  351. Margaret says:

    > thanks David!
    > it sounds nice.
    > I love practicing music, (singing, piano) and dance Argentinean tango, which also has very different moods and styles, from very funny towards dramatic and passionate or very romantic and it is also fun to dance waltz tango.
    > it is indeed a great way to be with (new) people and to make friends.
    > M

  352. swisslady says:

    Margaret, here is a bedtime story for you:
    When we first moved into our apartment in Mar Vista, we noticed several feral cats had taken up residence in the bushes and shrubs around the apartment block. My favorite was a red-stripy female, rather small and skinny, but feisty. As with all feral cats, they don’t let anybody too close, and all we did was feed them on a regular basis and once in a while apply some liquid medication against fleas. I called the little red-stripy one Mamacita (it’s Spanish for little mother). Every few months she carried and gave birth to 6-8 kittens. Nobody had been able to catch her and get her neutered so far. So, one of these times, when I came home from work, I noticed that she had arranged a cozy nest under the bush right outside our apartment door full with a bunch of little kitties. They were blind and suckling and Mamacita looked at me with big eyes filled with a bit of pride maybe and lots of trepidation. I calmed her with a soothing voice, didn’t dare to touch her because I knew it would spook her. I brought her food and drink and made sure she felt safe where she was. That evening I left the front door open while we were sitting in the living room; I wanted to keep an eye on Mamacita and her kittens. As we were sitting there on the couch in the dim light watching a show on TV, all of a sudden I noticed Mamacita sneak on soft paws through the open door and behind the desk in the corner. She carried one of her kittens in her mouth. What the heck?! She went in and out several times, every time running out, and every time gently walking back in with one of her kittens. Clearly, her plan was to settle in under our desk! How cute! How could we refuse? We let her have the space for the night but by next morning we arranged a big comfortable wooden box under the bush outside the apartment. The cat family was quite happy there, and Mamacita, once again, succeeded in raising a whole bunch of the cutest kittens. More later…
    –Bermadette

  353. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > that is indeed touching and raises all my protective instincts.
    > hope the story goes well..
    > are feral cats cats that became halfwild ?
    > or abandoned etc.?
    > it is nice she did sense she could trust you guys, she must have had a home once to dare to come in with the tv playing and all.
    >
    > we used to take care of a male cat like that in Spain for a long time, feeding him and he got more and more at ease.
    >
    > then one day we found him on our balconee right next to the door in a cardboard box where he had chosen to come to die..
    > at least we could provide him with some care and relative safety…
    > i think he had lived outdoors for too long to really make the transition entirely back to moving in, but well, it still makes me a bit sad..
    > he looked like a pirate, a real male cat full of scars and ragged ears. sometimes he ventured indoors briefly.
    > M

    • swisslady says:

      Margaret, “feral” refers to an animal (cat or dog) in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication. They are untamed, very shifty and distrustful of people. They live from scraps from the garbage, the lucky ones came to my door. We fed the five cats that lived around our apartment complex for the 10 years we lived there. In the 90s, there was a program in LA, where you could borrow a cat trap from an animal shelter with which you could trap the cat, then have it spayed or neutered for free. After that, they were released back at the same place where you caught them. Like this at least the feral cat population didn’t get any more out of hand. I did that with all five of ‘our’ cats…but I’m getting ahead of my story!

      That’s nice of you to give the poor cat in Spain a safe place to die in peace. When we visited Spain a couple of years ago we noticed a lot of feral cats and dogs in the streets. It was so heart breaking to see them like that and nobody seem to care. It made me want to cry all the time.
      –Bernadette

  354. Margaret says:

    > thanks Sylvia, to my great joy she was still positive about it when I called her tonight.
    > she even said it would be an improveement, she is a true survivor and has a very positive take on life really..
    > M

  355. Here’s an interesting one. I guess they are Irish. Celtic Cross – Saoirse’s Heart. Irish Rap? It’s not hitting me yet, but it might. John O’Lennonovsky would probably like it.

  356. Singer looks like someone i saw in group a couple of times.

  357. Brooklyn Featurette – Story (2015) – Saoirse Ronan, Emory Cohen Movie HD. this movie/love story looks good visually and a lot of irish accents.

  358. Goodbye party at work today, for one of the guys i got closest to. 8 years of my life knowing him, went by so fast. Spent more time with him, 8 hours a day, than my wife. A Sagittarius like myself. Only he did not get that personality quite as squashed as mine Don’t feel like writing about it. We both came close to tears at the long table with 20 or so of us computer guys. Like i said i dont feel like writing about it, but a lot of this seems true about me http://www.sagittarius.com/, except yes, my personality was definitely squashed. this sqg description makes me sad, for who i am, and what i could have been.”People love to be around your positive attitude and enjoy your positive influence on themselves. As a sagittarius you are also known for your large heart and willingness to give a helping hand to anyone that asks. People love to be around your positive attitude and enjoy your positive influence on themselves. As a sagittarius you are also known for your large heart and willingness to give a helping hand to anyone that asks. Sagittarius people attract many romantic partners as everyone wants to know the secret to your constant happy moods and unlimited energy. sagittarians are one of the luckiest signs out there.” well like i said, or george harrison said better “I don’t know how you were inverted No-one alerted you”

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – I would say that Sagittarius describes you quite well. You seem to have a lot to cope with but you never resort to bitching and blame (unlike me) at least to the people here. You in spite of all the bad shit that has happened to you seem weirdly well meaning and innocent. Like you never ‘blame’ BB again unlike me I give you major props on that. I find it interesting also about this astrology stuff there does seem to be something to it or like in your case in spite of all the s…. piled on you your real nature never went away or was entirely ‘squashed’ I think that’s true for people like we are all ‘good’ at the bottom of it all I even think of myself (mostly) as being good underneath it all even if I don’t show it much or people can’t see it. What’s that song “your’s so beautiful underneath it all” Gwen Stefani you probably know it your’e pretty hip on the music.

      You seem to be “going Irish” in some strange way anyway I have seen that movie “Brooklyn” if that’s the one you are talking about with the Saoirse woman and I really liked it just a fine movie and a good story. I think it was in the Oscars for best picture but did not actually win.

  359. We took in a feral cat in the late 80’s, or no, she didn’t come in. she had a litter before we could trap her and get her neutered. I have to leave out a really sad part here that haunts me today about one kitten.i think we called he this mother cat, “the mother cat”. Somehow we brought her with us in 89 to Sherman Oaks, and then Northridge, where she disappeared during a monster rain. That time we were living in Long Beach, when we met this mother cat, rocky as hell, as usual. I worked nights so i could take care of the young kids at home for part of the morning. Z took care of them at night at her mother’s, after she was already exhausted, and she didn’t particularly get along with her mother. so i got a day job and we put the youngest in a horrible day care center, horrible because they would not allow the caretakers to bond with individual children for some strange reason. I remember just horrible stuff, kid2 came running to the door to greet me at Z’s mother’s house, when i came home from work one day, and i was exhausted, i couldn’t pick him up. I just couldn’t do any better. Like BB said once, obviously trying to assuage my guilt, something like “They turned out good. The “Good Enough” theory says that that is GOOD ENOUGH. maybe. just barely. fucked up bad, but went into it with the best of intentions. I have every reason to hate myself, even beyond what some caretaker did to me as a child, to start that self-loathing. kid remains glad to see me for some reason, almost age 30. I so sad.

    • swisslady says:

      Otto, I want to say, don’t be too hard on yourself. We all make mistakes. We make lots of mistakes and then we learn from them. You can still acknowledge and take responsibility for the ‘bad things’ you feel you’ve done without beating yourself up over it. Looks like you had enough of blame and guilt growing up, the last thing you need is to perpetuate it. Be kind to yourself. Just my take.
      –Bernadette

  360. Patrick says:

    This astrology thing and to be clear I have never bothered with it that much but I am a bit amazed when I do how ‘accurate’ it seems. Like to take one of the most ‘intractable’ problems I have had to deal with………………Jack. He is a Scorpio hope I am not breaking any privacy rules there and I read how Scorpios are very aware of ‘origins’ and ‘ends’ like a really long view and aware of stuff way in the past and also way in the future. And me am a Leo which is way more ‘solar’ and more content to be in the present and is quite happy if I am the center of attention. Anyway a small gesture I suppose on my part what if our ‘differences’ are some kind of really deep cosmic stuff. I don’t really go for that actually just maybe a thought when all else fails…………….at it has.

    About being a Leo years ago even before I came here so ’70’s I was watching a movie I think called “John and Mary” could be wrong about that but anyway it was a ’60’s type movie with Dustin Hoffman as the main lead. Anyway I sit down to watch this at home and now to be really honest I DID smoke a joint so I could ‘enjoy’ it more lol (see now I ‘admit’ I smoked the occasional joint but it was long ago but I have to admit I did inhale lol). Anyway movie starts off guy (Hoffman) goes into some kind of ‘hippy bar starts talking to this ‘chick’ and she is all about astrology had all kinds of pendants etc on her and like a real ‘trippy’ kind of person. First thing she says to him “What sign are you” and I have smoked my joint and I go to myself “oh what a load of rubbish I don’t believe in that stuff” (I had already read the Primal Scream and ‘knew’ all that stuff was rubbish and not only astrology, but I Ching and just about everything else in the hippy scene all hocus pocus or mumbo jumbo influenced by Janov also. I think these day he calls it booga wooga lol) anyway the Hoffman character exactly mirrors what is going on in my brain and says like ‘oh I don’t believe in any of that crap’ and she goes ‘oh you are a Leo then’ and it did ‘blow my mind’ a bit in the lingo of the day like is NOT believing in astrology itself able to be explained by astrology. And like the TV can see what I am thinking lol again.. Anyway long way round of saying the little attention I have paid to astrology over the years it does seem to have something…………and these day I am a bit less inclined to dismiss stuff as hocus pocus or mumbo jumbo or even booga wooga.. BTW don’t all these description sound a bit in the jargon of today ‘racist’ like something ‘African’ esp booga wooga. I have never seen that anywhere else that a Leo is the type not to believe in astrology which makes some kind of sense again a more ‘solar’ person not concerned with deep and obscure matters like Star Signs

  361. Margaret says:

    > I find it very hard to belive a jacket can cost twelve thousand dollar.
    > five thousand yes, but twelve????
    > M

  362. Margaret says:

    hokus pokus refers to a part of the latin version of mass, forgot which part but it does sound kind of similar for someone not knowing latin.
    >

  363. Patrick says:

    Margaret – I looked up all 3 of those phrases mean somewhat the same thing though I was a bit surprised by booga wooga or that Janov would use it if he knew the ‘;meaning’ but I will give him the benefit of the doubt on that. I CAN give him the benefit of the doubt. Interesting to me you associate hocus pocus with the Catholic Mass as I said before knocking Catholics always seems to be ok for some reason. I can’t see any connection between hocus pocus and the Mass not even on google.

    I will try to ‘talk to Jack down here as the comment gets too skinny. This is tiresome and I told myself I should just ignore you as I often do but just in the interest of some kinds of basic truth……………….NO I am NOT a Trump fan, I have said that more than once here in fact I think it is a very bad sigh for the US if he wins. Kind of shows the state and level that things have descended to. Something like in the Roman Empire when they made a donkey “Emperor” or something. But in a way I like that the US in the modern “Empire” and it does show more the reality of a country/Empire on the skids. Also I REALLY don’t like the Republican Party to me these people are close to demons so after all if he wins you will have a Republican in charge. So NO though I will probably be ‘accused’ of it again I am NOT a Trump fan……………………………….however what is the alternative is WORSE as in this instance I really do feel is the case. Hillary Clinton may ‘look’ better but that’s the point that is ‘looks’ and a major illusion imo. Trump has said more than once he does not want to fight with Putin, he doubts the ‘wisdom’ of these Middle East wars that’s at least a start. Hillary in spite of enthusiastically favoring attacking Iraq was almost ‘personally’ responsible for the destruction of Libya, was very influential in the horrors unleashed on Syria (she wanted to do more horrors than Obama) and I always believe as important as the past is even more important is the future. What’s done is done but what will she do next? I keep saying it and I think this is the real horror story to come she will attack Iran. Look at this where she literally cackles with glee about the idea. This really is a very sick individual and even notice the nod she gives to ‘false flags’ Disgusting in the extreme but as Bernadette says “Go Hillary” wow…………….

  364. Patrick says:

    Notice also she is sitting around cackling about unleashing more wars with a REPUBLICAN James Baker who was some kind of ‘fixer’ or ‘handler’ for BOTH Bush Presidents (the Bush crime family at it is known). So even the idea she is a “Democrat’ is another illusion and is just good enough to trap the unwary and unaware which sadly is pretty much the majority now. As far as all this self congratulations about a woman president…………..BFD India has a woman in charge in the ’50’s Israel had in the ’60’s and so on even Pakistan had. Even Ireland had (twice) And the UK had the Iron Lady and that did not work out so well imo. In the case of Clinton it actually makes things worse as she will be keen to show she can bomb as good as any man! and better and quicker and that is scary indeed given the psychopaths we have had in charge (yes including Obama with his weeklly ‘kill list’. That’s why to me as ‘bad’ as Trump is it at least starts to show the ‘reality’ of this with Hillary no so much…………….

  365. Patrick says:

    Last one……………..more cackling and laughing about the murder of a good man Gaddafi who did a wonderful job as leader of Libya certainly if judged by what came later. Gaddafi was ‘good’ in more ways than one he supported the IRA against the British also clearly said the Mossad killed Kennedy. Did not make him friends in high places and this cackling witch got the revenge that was planned for so long on this poor guy. Democrats or Republicans don’t matter Reagan killed one of Gaddafi’s children in bombing, Obama killed more relatives with HIS bombing. Mad world

  366. Phil says:

    It’s an amazing spectacle how republican leaders can endorse Donald Trump when they tore him apart so recently. It just shows they will do anything to be re-elected and hold power. They are seemingly fine with a racist as president as long as they can maintain power.
    The Bushs are not endorsing Trump and none of them are going to the convention, but they hold no elective offices.
    They election is not only about foreign affairs. There are other candidates to vote for; Jill Stein is the likely Green Party candidate and Gary Johnson will represent the Libertarian Party. It’s too bad that they can’t get fair consideration, such as invitations to debates and media coverage.
    Bernie Sanders, I’m sure, could have secured the Green Party candidacy but his hope is to change the democratic party with his revolution. I guess that’s why he’s not quite giving up yet.
    Phil

  367. Margaret says:

    > I never said I associate hokus pokus with catholic mass as in some personal opinion or something.
    >
    > I did run in to a detailed explanation of where the term originally came from, and it is actually a phrase used in some celebration in latin which indeed does sound the same more or less although the specific words are not divided like in hokus pocus.
    > just a little something out of my semantic memory, but the source of the etymological explanation has evaporated out of my memory.
    > that is all.
    > if you see a possible associating hokus pokus with the catholic church in other ways that is your stuff Patrick, not mine.

  368. Just one more stab in the political arena: We could … with a bit of thought … do away with all of them … politicians, I mean, but it takes a bit of getting ones mind to delve deeper than is normal.

    The idea has been there for quite some time; more than a century. There have been many revolutions but after these revolution … as in the case of the killing of certain leaders, we deem bad … they are always replaced with more of the same thing. The French revolution with Napoleon, the British revolution with Cromwell, the Russian revolution with Lenin/Stalin, the first American revolution with Washington, the second with Lincoln … and on and on and on.

    So lets get back to one closer to home with this blog … the Primal Revolution.
    Janov, (incidentally uses the phrase “booga-booga” science), stunned many with a notion that for perhaps millennium we have been trying to “FIGURE OUT” how to make life comfortable and bearable for at least those of us around us, city state communities, nations and federations, with first (as far as we know Gods and Totem poles, then we got the single God from a Babylon. that got a bit modifies by Mark the gospel maker with someone that was perhaps more mythical than actual, sort of messianic. We then got another attempt to update that with a prophet, then later by some-one trying to ‘figure it all out’ sitting under a lotus tree for quite a long time.

    All the above attempts had to create a system the kept the whole community, nation, federation in place. It’s been given several names but the real glue was the means of ‘exchange’ which culminated in the best one we were able to invent … coins made of precious metals. That became inconvenient so we now invented a really cheap one made from paper. Sadly that then created those that needed for there own life existence, to cheat it and we got a whole convoluted system to prevent the cheaters.

    I feel, but I am probably fooling myself, that this whole ‘house of cards’, that we could dismantle it … or it might even collapse from it’s own weight and really have a REAL revolution and start to realize that it is simply to get back to our real NATURE … instead of hanging on like crazy to our behavior (because of the the system) and finally see we are killing ourselves, all other creatures and perhaps all life.

    My feeling here in writing all this is:- I am saddened by it all and I feel a desperate inability to do anything about it … though I keep on trying … yet realizing that I am reproducing my very own baby-hood and later child-hood. I’m not crying about it, but I am severely saddened by it all.

    Jack

    • Phil says:

      Jack
      With revolutions, when a leader or government is overthrown and not replaced by another what seems to happen is continuous civil war and chaotic conditions until a new government and leader is in place.
      Do all social animals need a leader, or some type of hierarchy or pecking order?
      Phil

      • Phil: So what is so terrible about chaos???? Chaos abounds all arond us, the weather, the traffic, pedestrian ism, the wold of governments, war, religion in it’s thousands of parts, nature, airport terminal departure desks, and on and on and on. Chaos is not the problem; the real problem is trying to prevent chaos which in turn creates more chaos. If you think about all governments … they are in the business of creating Laws, which seeming resolve little; for they go on and on, ad infinitum, making more laws to patch those made in the past with all the unintended loop-holes, which will need more laws because the cheaters (mainly the rich) will ALWAYS find ways to dodge it all.

        The removal of leaders is not what cause civil war, it’s the objection to that leader through a critical mass of the populous that creates “civil war”.

        The banter between you and I in the past has gotten into this, but seemingly to me you seem not willing to go deeper into the notion, or, as I see it, you not seeing my point. I know that problem is mine … and I can own it.

        It’s the system that is fucked and most are aware of it, BUT most are not willing to dismantle it for fear of …. (yep you guessed IT) … CHAOS.

        Jack

        • Patrick says:

          It’s all very well to blah blah blah about ‘chaos’ etc etc. It’s just talk and empty talk at that. Someone and I don’t know who but it was somewhere in the Middle East and he said one night of real chaos was worse than 100 years of tyranny. Jack you seem on ‘automatic pilot’ with ALL this stuff you talk about.I/we have heard it hundreds of times by now nothing much new and though it may have been ‘cool’ at one time it sound real dated. You don’t seem to be affected by any actual experience either personally or politically – NO CHANGE – don’t you get bored with yourself. I would.

      • There is in essence some reality to what you are suggesting, BUT what happens in these situations, there are elements of those people, who then try to get into control. Therein, as I see it, is the problem … TRYING TO GAIN CONTROL

        If in fact no-one tried to control any other human being, the whole process would fall into it’s own pace and peace. There’s always someone trying vie for control, better known as “neurosis” Isn’t this the same scenario with dysfunctional and not so dis functional families???? … daddy and/or mommy (or whomever the caregiver is supposed to be) .. tries to control the situation. Leave the kids alone for fuck’s sake … except if they fall or go into a life threatening situation.

        Therein is the problem. “trying” to gain control … when in fact if you look closely into Primal Theory there is never a need to control ANY other person. Isn’t that what the discovery of Primal pain revealed?????? The only control that is necessary is in the car you are driving or any other machine that you are manipulating.

        Jack

        P.S. It is our human construct, other creature have pecking orders We ain’t got a clue what is taking place in their brain … just our object observance of them.

  369. swisslady says:

    Patrick – re-posting just for you, since you think he is ‘the better choice’ – wow!

    Too Sick To Lead: The Lethal Personality Disorder Of Donald Trump

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-north-patterson/too-sick-to-lead-the-leth_b_10086768.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politicc

    • Patrick says:

      Bernadette I don’t really read much of Huffington Post but like it seems everyday the main ‘headline’ has some lurid outlandish headline about Trump.I don’t read those I just don’t don’t want to waste my time reading a bunch of ‘spun’ nonsense. But like I said to Jack I am NOT a Trump ‘fan’ but one thing I do believe for sure is we could NOT do worse than Hillary. If you are ok with more wholesale destruction in the Middle East what can I say?

      I really tried to read that article but it’s heavy going and really the ‘basis’ of it is sketchy to say the least. We don’t know what was going on was and that’s even if it was Trump blowing smoke of some “People’ magazine reporters not the most ‘serious’ kind of publication. I can imagine like Trump or Howard Stern for example just doing stuff like that for ‘fun’

      And then here they build all this psychological blah blah blah on it………………the basis or foundation of the story is weak and the ‘anaysis’ worse. You can make a case about ANYONE along these lines………….if fact I thought of Jack a few times lol………………and then I stopped reading can’t take this or waste my time on this.

      Take this snippet for example

      “A need to always be right. A refusal to acknowledge error. An inability to tolerate criticism or critics. A compulsion to conform your ever – shifting sense of “reality” to satisfy your inner requirements . A tendency to lie so frequently and routinely that objective truth loses all meaning.

      A belief that you are above the rules. An array of inconsistent statements and behaviors driven by your needs in the moment. An inability to assess the consequences of your actions in new or complex situations. In sum, a total incapacity to separate the world from your own psychodrama.”

      I am not saying this is really like Jack but it makes just as much sense as applying it to Trump. I hate this weak psychoanalyzing. Of course it’s about all we have since nobody much takes the time or interest in actual foreign policy for example. And again give me Trump any day over the cackling witch just waiting to start another war. War is serious business People magazine’s ‘stories’ true of false not so much.

  370. Phil says:

    I found the series of Janov’s blog articles on psychoanalysis that Daniel referred to. It starts in Sept of 2011. I read the first installment and to begin with he praises Freud and points out his discovery and formulation of the following:
    * Pain and trauma produce repression.
    * Repression results in symptomatology.
    * There is a meaningful correspondence between psychological events and physiological symptoms.
    * Repressed material exerts a lasting influence until it is released through recall and emotional catharsis

    As I have time I’m going to try to read all in the series.
    Phil

    • Patrick says:

      In many ways primal therapy was ‘psycho-analysis for hippies” lol. Janov SHOULD acknowledge Freud because basically it was a re-do of Freud. He took the basic Freudian paradigm and substituted ‘re-living’ for ‘re-membering’. Was that even an ‘improvement’ in some ways yes in some ways no………………imo

      • No!!! it was not psycho analysis for hippies or anyone else. It was a discovery … in essence, an accidental discovery, that Janov said, at the time of the Danny Wilson incident ” [he] had no idea what had taken place” It took months for him to formulate a theory that adequately described what had happened. Yes he initially was a Freudian and practiced it for 17 years, before the Danny incident.
        He took the trouble to see if he could replicate the sequence … and after being able to repeat it, then made a very serious attempt to create a therapy based in his experiment with many other patients, and then took two years off to do the therapy himself.

        However from one that FAILED to do the therapy and then leave it … but continues to BLAME the therapy for not having “got it” … YOUR comments amounts to the same blabber of a Trump, who talks off the top of his head, alienating even his party and those that reluctantly jumped on to his campaign rhetoric in order to save the party.

        Patrick you are net getting anyone to agree with you … but you persist, like some of the people you seemingly wish to defend. My suggestion:- for the betterment of, what’s left of your sanity. Find another blog where you might find others in agreement of you. I’m not suggesting you leave this one, since I garner a lot of fun responding to you.

        Jack

      • Quote: ” the basic Freudian paradigm and substituted ‘re-living’ for ‘re-membering’. Was that even an ‘improvement’ in some ways yes in some ways no………………imo”

        Therein you have just demonstreated you have litrtle understanding of Primal Therapy … let alone Primal Theory. If your opinion is; that Janov merely replaced “remembering” with “re-living” then your opinion, least-ways on this blog, is of no concern to anyone other than you egocentric self.

        Jack

  371. Margaret says:

    > just called my mom, and at first she started off by questioning why she would leave her house, and was a bit upset.
    > but as I refreshed her memory about the room and the visit and the garden, she started cheering up, and what she most needed was the reassurance her boyfriend would still come to see her there.
    > I told her he is welcome at all hours of the day, and can take her out as much as he wants to.
    >
    > she asked about whether she can go out on her own, and I was honest and told her she can go into the large garden as much as she likes and everywhere in the home, but that they don’t want the people to go out on the street on their own.
    >
    > that was difficult to accept at first, but it helped when I explained her she would need to do no shopping or going to the pharmacy as they would do all of that for her.
    > then she asked if she would not have to prepare her own meals then, and the idea her food would be served several times a day seemed not an unpleasant thought…
    >
    > to keep things short, after a bit of a conversation she was completely cheered up, and could see the positive sides of things.
    >
    > I did not avoid talking about the goodbye to the house and that part of all our lifes, as for us too it is the place we grew up in..
    >
    > she was grateful for the support and I told her again I am proud of her, and I am.
    >
    > it is amazing she is so gentle and reasonable now.
    >
    > she is also completely off medication, which I asked the doctor to do, and it seems uch easier to have a true conversation with her now.
    >
    > the medication was useful at the start, but now it seems very good she can do completely without, that feels a lot better.
    >
    > i hope things keep going so well in the coming days, as it still will be a big hurdle to take to make the actual move of course.
    > hopefully her first days there go well, then the rest will follow easily as the memory of her former house will quickly vanish.
    >
    > i hope so much she can have some nice years there, it wil have its ups and downs but let’s hope overall it will be ok….
    >
    > it does seem a nice place with old fashioned coziness and a caring atmosphere.
    > and a beautiful garden, certainly with squirrels and a lot of birds..
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, it sounds great that your mom has such a positive attitude and good outlook because of your providing her reassuring answers. Hope things keep going well also.
      Your mom sounds like a dear. Take care
      S

  372. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    It does sound like a very nice place, probably a lot better than the majority of such facilities we have here. I hope this all can go smoothly.
    Phil

  373. Margaret says:

    > that’s funny, when I read the Trump article that same description reminded me of someone else.
    > `m

  374. Margaret says:

    > thanks Phil, and Sylvia, and Bernadette,
    > M

  375. Phil says:

    Jack, What happens with chaos? Failed states:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index
    Places like South Sudan, Somalia, and the Central African Republic. Maybe you mean no country or state at all? A failed state is “a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective, that it has little practical control over much of its territory; non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality; refugees and involuntary movement of populations and sharp economic decline” Those aren’t good places to live. I would prefer to live where there is a strong government, rule of law, democratic accountability etc.
    Phil

    • Phil says:

      Jack
      The US has problems and is far from the most secure country on that index of failed states. We have political gridlock and special interest (large corporations, banks, the NRA etc) have effectively captured parts of the government and leaders. There many problems, including inequality. Interesting that FDR, although quite wealthy, was one of the presidents who did the most for poor folks. Maybe we need another politically skilled
      millionaire or billionaire. Trump isn’t the one though.
      Phil

      • Phile: if, as you state the US is on the index of failed states … why would you/it want it to continue in this manner. It needs a radical overturn of that “all America (supposedly) stands for”. In the beginning all it wanted was to be free from being governed from Westminster. It finally got it’s wish … but for me, being from the other side of the pond, all it did was reproduce almost exactly what it broke away from and instead if being ruled from Westminster created Washington. and thence being ruled from there … creating almost the very same. Nothing really changed.

        From there-on-in it has continued the very process it broke away from.

        Believe me, when I say that I feel that the British Empire was also a great failure for humanity. BUT no other nation has offered any REAL alternative. We still (because we all are subliminally ‘shit scared’ of chaos, due to neurosis, cruelly imposed for each of us in baby-hood and continued into early childhood), desperately and subliminally, holding onto that, that we complain about. The very hall mark of “neurosis IMO.

        Jack

        • Phil says:

          Jack, if you click on that link you’ll see what I am talking about. It is a ranking of states with the bottom being “failed”. The US is not a failed state.
          Phil

  376. Phil says:

    Since writing about that scene yesterday I’ve been feeling messed up, so tonight I had a session in my car. It started with that scene and quickly went to younger ages. Very, very angry feelings about being abandoned, alone in a bedroom and in the hospital, it jumped around a little. All my feelings about my mother are about abandonment it seems. I wailed and yelled mostly just noise but also Mama, Mama etc Its a battle of wills and I always lose. I am maybe 2 or 3 and I am furious
    . This went on for quite a while and as is often I felt a little blocked, I can’t quite completely let go. I felt like pushing my head into a pillow and felt a bit of birth feeling, I think it’s related to feeling blocked. Now I’m feeling a little less blocked, for now, it my face etc. But it will come back, it’s a huge feeling, “Yuge” as the Donald would say. Thanks for listening.. Phil

    • Sylvia says:

      Yes indeed Phil, they do sound like ‘tremendously’ ‘yuge’ feelings. Coming out bits and pieces at a time and a little resolving too, not as blocked. We listening. Take it easy.
      S

      • Phil says:

        Thanks for your response Sylvia. Writing on the blog is helpful, and there’s been a lot of activity here thanks to Jack’s great article which helped get things going. I’m feeling like a success to tonight after that session.
        Phil

  377. “If a lion is chasing you, you don’t sit down and have a good cry. YOU RUN! Later, back at the cave with your loving family, you tell them about the lion and then you have a good cry!” I like the part in THE BOOK where the lion catches up to you and you SCREAM as you are about to be murdered. Only I don’t think it was a lion, in THE BOOK. If i wasn’t too busy working overtime and fending off my wife’s need to save money by buying 5 pairs of shorts instead of one, I would find video clips from movies of such screams and upload them to my youtube site. Maybe some crying or some shots where the tear starts streaming down the face with some soulful music in the background. Doing such low-level moronic activity might give me reason to live, since no one here is standing on a chair having left only their hat on.

  378. swisslady says:

    Margaret,
    Tomtom was a big, strong male cat, black and white and very dirty. He was skittish and totally unapproachable. Nobody could touch him. He liked hanging out under the bushes in the dirt, occasionally on the patio in the morning sun. Although he lay there obviously enjoying the warmth, he never seemed quite relaxed. As soon as he heard someone approaching, his head came up, he stared the intruder in the face for a quick moment, then darted like lightening into the nearby bushes. He was pretty aggressive when it came to food. All the other cats stepped aside when he arrived, like they were bowing down in front of the king of the castle. The situation could be that the other four cats where having a feeding frenzy in front of my apartment door, chowing down on a mixture of canned and dry cat food, but as soon as Tomtom entered the scene, they all withdrew and Tomtom got first digs. If any of the others tried to share, he would turn on them with a mean look, and they quickly recoiled. He demanded respect! It happened that we (myself and the other four cats) watched him clean out the various dishes and then disappear. I would have to give a refill for the other cats.

    It was in the summer when I had my bicycle accident and I was banned from work for several weeks due to a shoulder injury. After the first week of recovery, I got restless. Okay, perfect time to do some cat trapping! I got the steel cat trap from a nearby animal shelter and set it up under the bushes somewhere away from my apartment. I didn’t want the cats to associate the trap with me, the hand that feeds them and wants to gain their trust. (I don’ t know if feral cats actually make associations like that, ha!). I thought a small heap of kibble would suffice to entice one of the cats to enter the cage and get trapped. Then I went to bed.

    What a surprise to find my ‘catch of the day’ the next morning! Tomtom! The big, strong bully cat cowered in the farthest corner of the cage staring at me with hateful eyes. “I’m sorry, Tomtom! We’ve got to do this!” When I lifted the cage into my car, he was running wild in the confined space and clawed at me through the gaps. “Sorry, sweetie, it won’t take long, I promise!” I covered the cage with an old blanket. That calmed him down a bit. A few minutes later we arrived at the vet’s office, where I registered him as Tomtom Feral. I was able to pick him up a couple of hours later and release him at the same place as he got caught. He was out of the cage faster than the wind!

    I don’t think I saw him for the next few days. Undoubtedly, he must have crawled into a corner and licked his wounds. But soon enough the free cat chow buffet by my apartment door enticed him back into the fold. Could it be that he had calmed down a bit? Did I notice a bit of a softer side after he was neutered? I was afraid he would hate me for the rest of his life, but he actually became more approachable. He never became a cuddly cat, of course, but much, much later we noticed, he would not even lift his head when someone approached him on the patio. We all made sure to gently step around him. Good old Tomtom 🙂
    –Bernadette

  379. “It was a discovery … in essence, an accidental discovery, that Janov said, at the time of the Danny Wilson incident ” [he] had no idea what had taken place” It took months for him to formulate a theory that adequately described what had happened.” Jack, it is mind-blowing to imagine how that transpired. I don;t think Hollywood could do it justice. Although that Dyan Cannon movie was interesting, if i recall. I am just mostly having a conversation with one of my selfs, as some of us semi-autistics do, don’t mind me. trying to “keep it together” ala Eddie Murphy in Bowfinger. actually, i dont feel bad today, not sure why. Not looking forward to kid’s graduation saturday. gotta wear a suit and be around people that i probably don’t want to be around. and of course, someone else will be more fatherly than me. hate these fucking ceremonies, birthdays and such. Of course, any change in my life, like kid finally leaving hometown in august, is gut-wrenching for me, given my past. feel trapped too. luxury problems, as they say in AA? no, fuck this shit, and i don’t have much longer, the way the days fly by.

  380. mom, get your ass back here and take care of me! wahhh

  381. Margaret says:

    > seems something is definitely unblocking Phil, good on you, M

  382. Margaret says:

    > Otto, I think Bernadette has a good point.
    > i have also regrets about things I could have done better with regard to some animals in my past, and actually to people as well.
    > it did help a little to take time when I was thinking about it and feeling bad to tell them how sorry I feel, it did bring me more into the feeling and occasionally is still useful.
    > they for sure would not hold it against you, thinking about that still triggers me as well and also makes the feeling more clear how important it is to do what we can for the animals that do need our help.
    > it is a regret and sadness we have to accept about the times we could not do so.
    > and too often things are simply out of our control..
    > M

  383. Margaret says:

    > Bernadette,
    > that story seems to trigger me.
    > there is something about a cat being afraid that resonates so strongly..
    > it needing reassurance ..
    > it must be the feeling of being all on its own in a seemingly hostile world, not understanding and feeling very scared, lost and vulnerable…
    >
    > all I want to do is protect tem and make them feel better..
    > says something about my own feelings if it resonates so much.
    > good Tomtom felt safer in his ‘retirement’ days, the other cats must also have appreciated the diminished testosterone levels..
    > M

  384. swisslady says:

    Margaret, I relate to your feelings of wanting to protect the scared, lost and vulnerable animals (and for me, also children in the third world). I agree, seeing them pushes on our own vulnerability. They are such early feelings for most of us. Admitting and addressing them takes strength and determination. It’s much easier to avoid them, and mostly it’s even required to avoid and repress them, as we often are judged as ‘weak’ and ‘wimpy’ if we admit to those feelings as adults. For me, it’s now getting harder to avoid them, I guess that’s progress. And it comes as a kind of relief to finally allow them.
    On another note, I am sure glad your mother is more cheerful and positive about going to the home. It looks like a lovely place to be and she will get a lot out of being there. Keep me posted of any progress.
    –Bernadette

    • Patrick says:

      I don’t know if children in the ‘3rd world’ have it so bad if only we left them alone. Speaking for myself the 3rd world part of my upbringing was the best…………..so called 1st world not so much. Is it really our job to get a feeling of virtue by showing how ‘sorry’ we are for them……………..if only we would stop bombing them I think they would be sort of ok. So maybe that might be a start above all don’t bolster people who we KNOW will bomb them………………..have you ever been bombed it’s no fun at all……………….

  385. Patrick says:

    I have been reading a bit more about the history of this………….Churchill cam to power on May 19 1940 and started bombing German cities (civilians specifically) Hitler waited 6 months and did not respond then finally he did but only tried to bomb ‘military’ type targets the docks etc. By MISTAKE or error the Germans then bombed East London which was what Churchill wanted and he could play the hero for the rest of his war. Hitler dropped leaflets in London saying the war is pointless and should be stopped he made clear to the British he would stop all bombing if they did…………….but they would not. Now the way I understand it Churchill was a total warmonger and a nasty cruel psychopath, Hitler by contrast did NOT want war at all certainly not with the British.

    It is chastening to see and understand how ‘history’ or at least this part of it is exactly upside down and nothing I or anyone can do about it. British propaganda (PR) is second to none and this then went into the holocaust stories and all the rest of it. I can’t prove any of this and I don’t need a debate but it is what I believe to be true based on the writings of some people I trust. Plus it makes all the sense in the world. These ‘lies’ have from then on set the tone and now we really are in trouble.A world built on lies cannot succeed and it does not look like ours will……………

    • Quote:- “Churchill cam[e] to power on May 19 1940 and started bombing German cities (civilians specifically) Hitler waited 6 months and did not respond then finally he did but only tried to bomb ‘military’ type targets”.

      That may well be correct because Hitler was busy doing the very same to countries that had done him no harm. Poland, that Britian had a treaty, with; for anyone trying to conquer them.

      As he stated very clearly in Mein Kampf,; Germans were the Aryan race and he considered, the English, from there heritage of Anglo Saxons, they also were … more or less. He didn’t consider the Irish or Welsh to be of those superior races, nor the Latin countries including the French.

      He made it quite clear that he THOUGHT, Jews, Gipsys, Homosexuals, and the mentally retarded to be grossly inferior. Since you claim to be a reader (of your own idea of “Facts”), I suggest you read carfully and maybe twice to make sure you read it right on the first read his most famous book “Mein Kampf” There are pleny of translations, though I don’t think it got translated in to Gealic, least of all the Irish version.

      Seemingly you do have some relative understanding of that language, from that county, you seem to so much abhor … ENGLISH.

      Jack

  386. I guess I just cant stand how stupid I am. We had a beautiful grey cat that we found wandering on the street. Maybe he wasn’t wandering on the street, maybe he actually belonged to someone. But that was the height of my pet-hoarding days, probably soon after I started PT in 85. We had enough cats that it was becoming a problem with the landlord and neighbors. I brought this grey cat home. I already had a grey cat named “Grey”, so I named him Grey2. We also had rescued a rabbit from the pound. The rabbit and the cat got along famously. But I needed to get rid of pets, so I asked my brother if he wanted any cats. I have no idea what I was thinking, was I thinking there was a cat that I would not miss? Anyway, he picked Grey2, to my dismay, so this ended up breaking up the rabbit and cat playtime. Then I checked with my brother some time after that, and he said Grey2 had disappeared. The rabbit later caught a cold, the vet gave us some stupid medicine and he died. I buried him near a bush and the bush then grew very vigorously. I really thing I am borderline insane, then and now. Anyway, thanks for the kind words, I don’t know if I am beating myself up, or if I need comfort from mommy, or if I am mad at mommy for not teaching me not to be stupid, or what. Or if I am like the guy in Airplane, who tells one passenger after the other about his failed affair and each one finds a comical way to kill themselves. Only this is not funny, it haunts me. There is no way to get rid of it. By the way, they found something interesting in Poland, something real, something horribly sad.

  387. Bernadette, loved reading about TomTom.

  388. Jack, how old were you during the bombing? Was it in London? Scary stuff.

    • Otto: No, not London, nor Coventry, Plymouth. or Portsmouth, that got pummeled way more than we did on the outskirts of Manchester in the north of England.

      The Manchester Blitz was only for a few weeks but having to live those weeks sleeping in an air-raid shelter, and hearing the bombs falling and bang, boom blast, was very frightening for an eight your old kid … me. The thought all the time; was one of them going to drop on us. It was a feeling of total and un-utterable powerlessness.

      I’m sure the propaganda did not help, but from my later readings of history, Mein Kampf and listening to others and several Germans; Hitler was not in any way,, shape or form a benevolent dictator. But I agree that Churchill, though not a dictator, was that much less of a neurotic.

      To me for all the ‘head tripping’ I have indulged in during my life … there will NEVER be peace, whilst “money” or any means of exchange, including barter exist. If money did not exist there would be no millionaires, billionaires or any real differences between any one human or another. Even greed, would become a thing of the past. Not that Everything would be all “hunkey dorey … there would still be sadness, anger and fear, but life would be all that much simpler.

      The need for anyone having to do more than 3 or 4 hours tasking, would also become redundant, and I feel that neurosis would also evaporate since a woman would never carry an unwanted baby to term, and hence would … by virtue of her instincts, would love the baby that came out for within her. Having been a fundamental part of her for 9 months.

      Jack

  389. Patrick, as i said previously in the blog, I don’t think the English were blameless for World War 2, at least in the sense that their lust for Empire set a bad example for the rest of the world. I think the US was also guilty of that. However, I think that even though Hollywood paints a too-rosy picture of Valiant England surviving the Nazi bombings, I don’t think what you are saying above can possibly be true. Are you also thinking that the Turkish genocide of the Armenians did not take place? to tell you the truth, I sometimes very-slightly believe that story that Roosevelt allowed and encouraged the Pearl Harbor attack, so we could get into the war, to help England or whatever. But my only info about that is the movie Tora Tora Tora. I don’t like reading books anymore. I do think that Generals and Admirals and other types of leaders are just plain stupider than me, and don’t listen to reason from their underlings. Also, I wont attribute anything like that attack to Astrology per se, but I do believe there is something more to the effects of the Earth spinning around itself, and the Moon spinning around itself, and spiinning around the Earth too, and the Earth spinning around the sun with the rest of the planets, and we humans are all just tiny pieces of dust in this spinning, so what am i saying? no idea, just trying to come up with my own theory of why humans do stupid shit, so i can write a book, the Primal Spin, or something. ok got to stop thinking and postulating and getting manic., should have just kept watching war of the worlds. TV, my one true refuge.

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – it’n nice you do not recoil in ‘shock-horror’ as people used to say/joke about the English tabloids they loved their ‘shock-horror’. Still do it seems. And I kind of like your theory about all the ‘spinning’ could do our heads in and for sure ‘spinning’ is a big factor in ‘lies’ but honestly I think we can take all the spinning you are talking about and still not be dis-orientated lol.

      I agree with you that is seems very unlikely that what I am saying is true. But the only thing really that makes it so unlikely is we are CONSTANTLY told the opposite right from when we were babies and it is kept on relentlessly until we die. Maybe think of it this way let’s say God forbid WW3 REALLY does start with say Russia. Nuclear bombs are slung around massive death disease and destruction atrocities and cruelty beyond description but in the end Russia ‘loses’ we ‘win’……………..what do you think we/historians are going to say about Putin.’ that there were 2 sides to the story, that Putin only nuked us because we already had nuked him, that it wad debatable why the war even started……………NO NO NO we would/will say nothing of the sort we will say ‘Putin was a monster, he started the war and deserved all he got, we were too nice to him etc etc. that he was set on talking over the world because he thought Ukraine was part of Russia ete

      All of this is not so theoretical it even COULD happen we seem in a weird way to want it to happen. To me Putin is NOT the aggressor, we are he seems to want peace and accommodation at all times but we paint him as so bad. And Hillary Clinton esp that is what really scares me about her, I am selfish like everyone else and as bad as I would feel about the wrecking of another country even a very big one like Iran she is very aggressive towards Putin also. This is dangerous stuff but anyway I see Hitler now as being in a VERY similar situation to Putin. They are circling him trying to provoke him make him make the first rash move and then BOOM! attack him and feel and seem ‘justified’ Hitler was ‘younger’ than Putin I mean in terms of ‘maturity’ but then he could not have understood the forces arrayed against him Putin does it seems. His employment with the KGB gave him plenty of time to understand how devious and untrustworthy the West is/are I agree not the most ‘conventional’ view of history or maybe more importantly today’s situation but it is mine and I won’t just say I am sticking to it I do examine it and wonder and try to put more things together but that’s about where I am now if anyone cares..

      • Quote:- “……. view of history or maybe more importantly today’s situation but it is mine and I won’t just say I am sticking to it I do examine it and wonder and try to put more things together but that’s about where I am now if anyone cares..”

        Yep: that is right …. AND it’s called “head tripping”. It’s lacking in feelings though. Still!!! what can we expect of someone that has little regard for Janov, though in a funny sort of way … still, one foot in that camp … and still sticking your ideas into this blog … without seemingly considering why..

        Jack

  390. Patrick says:

    I thought this was cool…………..Hillary says Putin ‘does not have a soul’ (familiar type of ‘demonization’ there hey AFTER the war this will be ‘believed’ maybe she will say next Putin does not ‘GET IT’ as one moron here is inclined to say anyway typical kind of ‘superior’ nonsense and Putin replay I like basically Hillary does not seem to have a brain…………………..

  391. Margaret says:

    > had a pleasant afternoon with my new starting friend from Cabo Verde.
    > he has an interesting history, and is now still adjusting to his life after the discovery of his retinitis pigmentosa, which is gradually making him blind.
    >
    > he is very active, is learning to play the piano, he played here on mine, and he clearly is gifted, though not having had that much schooling yet he played some complicated rhythms of his country of origin, he left long ago and still visits every now and then.
    >
    > we have many things in common and both enjoyed the interaction.
    >
    > but I told him I wanted to focus on friendship as he is still living with his wife, but yeah, guess what not happy with it.
    >
    > I tend to believe it though, she is not wanting to go anywhere with him, since he lost his sight, not even to take him along to the supermarket as that takes longer than alone, and there seems little left between them.
    >
    > but still, am not gonna begin anything else than friendship, told him to keep doing what he is doing, forming his own new set of activities and friendships, his own circle, and maybe some time he will feel strong enough to go and live on his own which he is already considering.
    >
    > we talked a lot about ap’s and about the difference of living here and living in warmer countries, like Spain or Cabo Verde or Portugal, and it was really nice to listen to him playing simple versions of Cesaria Evora songs and John Lennon ‘s Imagine..
    >
    > he is about 7 years younger than I m, but thought I was more than ten years younger than him, smiley, poor eyesight has its good sides..
    > he could see I am slim and look a bit sporty, and said he really got very attracted by my voice and way of speaking on the phone, and really wants to connect with someone that understands the situation of ending up visually disabled.
    >
    > so it was a positive connection, he wanted me to come along to Cabo Verde some time, which sounds very appealing, but right now I want to focus on developing friendship as I don’t even know if I would be in for something more even if he would be single.
    >
    > told him this time I want to pay attention to what I really want, and to take all the time I want to as a good friendship feels like more valuable than a short affair.
    >
    > the ways he described the small island he comes from , one of the ten Cape Verdian islands, sounded so alluring!
    > simple and healthy life quality, beautiful setting, everyone knowing each other, hardly any tourism as that focuses on the other islands.
    >
    > he would like to go there yearly for 6 months in winter and come back here in summer at some point, mmm
    >
    > so now it will be to be seen if a friendship really develops, as who knows, maybe he will not invest energy anymore if there is no promise of something more physical, then that is the way it is, I feel quite grounded in what I want and don’t want at this point.
    >
    >
    > I played the piano a little bit and it is funny he said he finds it very attractive to look at a woman playing the piano, while I find a man that is playing also gets something extra, smiley..
    >
    > feel pretty tired now, whole mom adventure also being on our plate, lots of forms, decisions about money with regard to that, the whole hassle of moving and supporting her at the same time, etc.
    > and preparing for an exam in one month from now..
    >
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      That’s great about finding an interesting new friend. Those Cape Verde Islands must be a nice place; even better that one lacking tourists.
      Phil

  392. Phil says:

    I made a stupid mistake at work today that left me feeling upset. It will be fixed, I am taking care of it and nobody but me is upset about it. It’s just that I make too many mistakes. My job becomes boring and my mind wonders and attention is somewhere else. Excuses, but that’s what happens. Mistakes I make can all be corrected with no harm done. I have a system of checking myself to prevent this and today I thought of a new way to double check for the latest thing that happened.
    The job is too often robotic and mindless. Ideally I should get a new one, but can’t.
    But the point is I came home feeling quite upset about this and went and had a self session.
    It’s that I feel excessively upset, very upset, with myself like I did something wrong, I did but it was just a mistake, although a stupid one that I didn’t catch.
    It connects with that same scene with my mother and others like it. It feels like she won’t talk to me because she’s mad at me, for doing something wrong. There are memories where I got punished,spanking, a long time out, for just wanting her attention.
    But it feels continuous, she won’t talk to me, even notice me. It’s like all the time. It’s all I get from her.
    “Mommy talk to me, ……..what did I do, ……I’m sorry, what did I do,…….. don’t be mad,……please talk to me …..don’t hurt me…. etc etc etc. ”
    Phil

    • Sylvia says:

      Phil, it really does sound like your upset over a work mistake is linked to the feeling of thinking you did something wrong as a child and were punished for it. Can imagine many feelings about that unfairness. And also a child’s guilt of doing something seen as bad that was just normal–to want attention. You could not win.
      S

    • Larry says:

      Seems like as a kid you were punished for being a normal child.

  393. Well, i am not sure what that Hillary/Putin clip meant. I don’t like Hillary. I don’t trust Putin. Lying sacks of shit. I liked the movie with Ben Affleck where he met the leader of Russia and was able to talk sensibly and honestly to him about the nuclear stuff about to happen. Same with Henry Fonda in a similar movie. I think there is a 3rd one, but cant remember, dont care. Where are the statesmen we need? Probably never were any. Does the CIA have a complete dossier on Mr. Putin, so that they would know what he would probably do in a given situation? ok I am rambling and throwing out thoughts, in a similar need to clear my mind of another possibly meaningless work week. I used to like to watch the Daily Show with John Stewart, because he seemed to be an honest guy. I think he went too far in criticizing Mr. Putin, and then Putin invaded that country, cant remember the name, crimea, ukraine whatever. That’s a stretch to say that John Stewart caused that, but those big boys have a lot of pride, that’s why they want to get to the top maybe. Anyway, only people who know how to talk to people, as J. Lennon-Chao-Ting once said as he was hoarding his feelings. Of course the leaders cant talk honestly with each other, they have many crazy underlings and rich men vying for their attention. I am just writing for the shear torture of it. Nothing on tv any more. I bore myself to tears. I wish i was doing something lively and fun. Drinking used to fuel that, but I couldn’t stop at just one drink. I could go to AA to hang out with people because someone told me they are fun but I don’t really like AA people that much. I hate the stories the speakers tell at the AA meetings for some reason, I really hate those stories, maybe because they have a happy ending, or they compress the insanity that their former lives were into just a few minutes, don’t know. I hate the jargon, I hate the steps. If I go, my only pleasure is to look at women or eat forbidden donuts. I went once to a meeting to deliver cookies since Z was sick, and she was supposed to be bringing the cookies. Some attractive woman was talking to another woman about her beautiful shoes, and had somehow lifted her foot high enough to show the details of one of the shoes to her friend. ahhhhhhh. this is one of my only pleasures left in life, besides cat and dogs, and the moment was too fleeting. damn, i missed out on that stuff, you know, even being able to say something to that woman about her beautiful shoes, without being too creepy and staring at her long uncovered legs sticking out of her short skirt. Some old men, or maybe even a lot of old men could say the right thing to that young lady, and get a little flirty moment to lighten the mood in the shithole world. John Abu-Lennon-akbar would have said something clever, because he was probably one of those guys who knew how to talk to people. Boy I am just an empty shell. It will be a miracle if I get to the beach this year, and into the water, and I didn’t feel all that thrilled about it last year, although it was good to let the waves have their way with me and reminisce about the many summer days I spent at the bay and beach in Long Beach as a teenager, and I had a good little buddy to hang out with, digging holes in the sand and other stuff. Doesn’t turn me on much anymore.

  394. Found a pint of ice cream that someone had stashed in the freezer. oh well cant resist. anyway one last thing. i was walking down a really long hall at work today, and i had a short visual flash in which the sides of the hall looked like a woman’s legs running up to the end of the hall, and the wall at the end of the hall looked like her you-know. like a big giant torso bottom of a woman, and it struck me of a woman giving birth, but this was only an instant. sorry to be creepy. i know i said previously that me as a baby would have wished he could crawl back up inside of my mom, for refuge, or wishing to be born again and getting it right, or to never have been born at all. Well, I could write this off as watching too much porn or other imaginative movies, or taking too much acid when i was younger, except that i have had this thought many times, and i think it would be a rational thing for a baby to think of. very first-liney. I did not feel anything, it just kind of caught me by surprise, strange. i just had to write this down. sorry. creepy.

    • Otto: You said it all in that last line you “had to say it all”. to me it was not creepy though I can’t speak for others. Being touched is a very fundamental need especially as a young baby.

      My feeling is about the therapist that leave … they want to go back to their own locales or countries and want to setup their own practice. Many having had quite a few years under supervision from more senior therapist. I am not sure that is always the case or even the case.

      Jack

  395. ate too much ice cream. anywahhh. anyway i broke down and watched video of france janov about touching “Touching in Primal Therapy” Kind of interesting, I am not sure i understand all of it, and where did all of the therapists go, that were trained at the primal training center? are they spreading across the earth and changing things for hundreds of people?

  396. Patrick says:

    Is this an ‘answer’ to Jack if it is maybe it should not be, his ‘hatred’ of me is so palpable and the contempt so deep it’s like really this can’t be about me or at least not mostly about me. Must be some deep self hatred and self contempt it’s beyond all bounds to go a little ‘primal’ on him.. Though I did get a good ‘insight’ with Jack’s reaction to Daniel and it becomes a little clearer. Daniel’s ‘crime’ was not to be on board the Janov train 100% THAT seems to be the ‘supreme crime’ the crime that is unforgivable at least on this blog and coming from someone with at least some knowledge and credibility. (Daniel) So I felt a little better from that in that my ‘crime’ is not really mine it’s just that it upsets Jack’s mental equilibrium of belief.. Really it seems just an old story of ‘heresy’ and ‘apostasy’ that must be punished and ‘banned’ even as a way of talking or thinking. And I suppose why would it be it be any different if Jesus by his ‘sacrifice’ saved our souls and if every Sunday we are literally drinking his blood and eating his body and if Jesus was so outside normal ‘history’ he could rise from the dead and assume into Heaven and then Janov made not only the greatest discovery ever made but and this seems to be very important or EVER WILL make so too he is outside ‘;history’ . So there the ‘future’ is ruled out there really is no future nothing can possibly happen in any so called future that will equal THAT ‘discovery’ So the past is mostly all ‘mistakes’ from not realizing the truth of the ‘discovery’ and the future is out then we are left with a present where all we should do all we are allowed to do is sit and admire and gloat about that great ‘discovery’

    Mind you to be fair to Janov or ‘official primal’ they would not go so far themselves this itself is a kind of ‘heresy’ or ‘apostasy’ it is a case of the ‘disciple’ believing more in the Master than the Master himself. The Master himself might be quite cynical we don’t know we truly know little of the Master and even of the ‘secret’ thoughts of official primal. And it does remind me and this happened there was a ‘primal meeting’ in a Church in Westwood and Janov was there and at some point Jack rose up to ask a question but really to promote his ‘book’. So this ‘book’ has been a long time coming this was in the early ’80’s and I distinctly remember Janov kind of shooing Jack away from him, like write to me in the mail, I don’t want to go into this now etc etc and Jack being relentless kept ‘promoting’ himself AND Janov to the point where Janov himself was clearly uncomfortable with his ‘disciple’ who was it seemed more of a ‘true believer’ than Janov himself.
    And so it has gone on in the 30+ years since Jack is still a ‘true believer’ and when Janov gestures around his table in Malibu and says ‘here are my people’ Jack is nowhere to be seen.

    Anyway why do I write such ‘rubbish’ well it’s early in the morning and I like to do a little ‘free associating’ my mind is a bit more free and clearer in the morning. In that way I am more in Freud’s ‘camp’ than Janov’s though truly I don’t feel I belong in either……. nowhere is home.
    Inside outside, leave me alone
    Inside outside, nowhere is home
    Inside outside, where have I been?
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    Out of my brain on the train
    Out of my brain on the train, on the train
    I’m out of my brain

    I have to thank or give Otto his props……………..because he ‘allows’ himself to ramble on (cue Ramble On lyrics and song) I feel a bit more free to do it don’t have to make total sense all the time, don’t have to pass the ‘primal censor’ who I am sure he will find it to be ‘mistaken’ and ‘wrong’ during the ‘quoting back’ process whatever who cares well maybe I do but am working on maybe I don’t Probably will be found to be more ‘heresy’ and ‘apostasy’ or what is called now ‘being in your head’ but I told you I am ‘out of my brain on the train’

    • Quote:- “it’s like really this can’t be about me or at least not mostly about me”.
      It’s not about you … it’s about me having fun with someone that in the beginning and continuing into the present has done his best (for reason only you might be able to fatheom), to disparage me.

      Another quote:= “Anyway why do I write such ‘rubbish’”?
      Only you can answer that … that’s if you could muster the courage to do so. Sadly, knowing you for all those years; I doubt it. However, you seemingly don’t want to go there.

      And yet another quote:- “who cares well maybe I do”
      Obviously you do, but like ‘The Donald’ you do mouth off more than is good for you. You go off about my hatred … little acknowledging your own “Venom” Try a bit of intospection and KNOW you started this whole ball rolling … except when I remind you, you have some cock-a-maime therory about that’s not Primal. As if YOU knew.

      Jack

  397. Patrick says:

    It’s interesting (to me and probably only me) at that same meeting I had some kind of ‘official’ role in that I was at the door and collecting if I remember correctly a $10.00 donation. How this happened I have no idea I never was close to any ‘official’ primal stuff but I think it was collecting the money on behalf of the Church that was putting on the event. Anyway several therapists showed up and I even remember their names but no need to say but I made a point of making sure they paid. I kind of went ‘come on now the shoe is on the other foot pay up now etc etc’ And they did though they seemed slightly taken aback but I was like ‘I don’t care now YOU pay up’. And I suppose that was my feeling at the time I had done all the ‘paying’ and felt I had little or no voice (I have made up for that here lol) so it was ‘pay back’ time now YOU pay up now I am ‘in charge’. Basically I felt the ‘treatment’ I got here was very unbalanced it was ALL ‘one way’ the see saw was tipped against me (I felt) and now if only for a brief moment I was on the ‘up’ of the see saw. But I knew soon I would be ‘down’ again it was just a momentary ‘revenge’

    • Quote:- “Basically I felt the ‘treatment’ I got here was very unbalanced it was ALL ‘one way’ the see saw was tipped against me (I felt) and now if only for a brief moment I was on the ‘up’ of the see saw. But I knew soon I would be ‘down’ again it was just a momentary ‘revenge’”

      My suggestion here (for what it’s worth) is:- to try and figure-out WHY … the see saw got tipped against you. Sadly, I don’t feel you will even for more than one second, think about it before you jump into one more of your ‘pre conceived reckonings’ on the matter. In other words, I feel you think you have it all figured-out

      It’s really very sad; least-ways, as I see it, but for my own deep feelings I have the desire to hold you in check, One reason I have stated in the past is that I know you are a very talented salesman and are capable of twisting this blog out of shape and I have taken it upon myself to prevent that from happening. Also another reason, is that I love blogging and putting in my ‘oar’ as I feel my need.

      Meantime, I will give consideration to those deeper feelings. What I am very aware of after the 30 odd years of therapy is:- that this is now my life style … my way of living life. It has many benefits for me as I can self attest to.

      In my past needing to figure all things out (my old neurotic way), I have found a less stressful way of being. I am truly grateful to Arthur Janov for showing me that way. Seeing the many crippled people when I go to the hospital to see my doctor. I feel sad for the human race. I don’t cry about it much anymore and am not bothered by the sad, angry and sometimes fearful feelings that come up for me. It’s my way of being and I just know I want to continue in that manner.

      I also feel less defensive than I used to be, and that also pleases me. If I am alone with the notion that “Primal pain” was the greatest discovery ever made that is also ok. I don’t need approval, though I also will try and keep always from disapproval. I have a partner and I am ostensibly still HIV, but so far no effects from it as yet. I do feel lucky.

      Jack

  398. Patrick says:

    Speaking about being up and down on the see saw or swings this is a cool song

  399. Margaret says:

    > Jack, I have asked you before and feel like doing so again, why don’t you give Patrick a break so hopefully both of you in that case can let go of this neverending cycle?
    >
    > Patrick has his own stuff definitely, but Jack, you do tend to jump on his back even if there is no specific reason at times.
    >
    > it feels tiresome after all this time to have to even scan through endless repetitive mails that don’t seem to go anywhere but in circles.
    >
    > just asking please, can we have a break from this?
    > M

    • Margaret: both in the past and my latest comment, I make a very serious attempt to explain why I do it. I do accept that some my not like it, but I am not in the business of making life, pleasant and comfortable for all. I in it for what it is for me, and, hopefully, I am able to take the consequence.

      I accept that you wish to question it, and also that you feel it is tiresome. If that is what you are feeling, I know you know that is something YOU need to take into consideration for yourself. That is not to say that I feel you should not say how you feel, BUT I do feel I have the right to respond.

      Meantime, I did not see you getting into the fray when Patrick first came onto the bog. Also, I have given consideration to you prior comment about me “not being informed” If that’s your feeling, that I can well accept it. It could be that what you are really trying to tell me is that if I were to leave him alone, and not respond that would be better for the blog and maybe then Patrick would leave. That is not my feeling about him, and I base my feeling on knowing him and working with and for him for over 30 years.

      I do feel that for quite some time that you were into Patrick. If and when he questions you , I feel you seek then, to get him banned.

      I hope I am making myself clear.

      Jack

      .

  400. Phil says:

    Jack,
    I have similar feelings to Margaret on this. You said in your previous message addressed to Patrick: “:It’s really very sad; least-ways, as I see it, but for my own deep feelings I have the desire to hold you in check,” in regards to what Patrick says about primal therapy and his experiences with it.
    But I don’t see you holding Patrick in check. If anything, you probably stimulate him to write more.
    It is just an endless argument, no one will win or can win. I think we could find quite similar discussions between you two last month, six months ago, last year, two years ago, etc. None of that is to any effect that I can see.. A reading of just a few of these discussions should make that clear. You have said this is fun, which is hard for me to understand.
    Phil

    • Phil: I am perhaps not expressing myself clearly; so I will make one last stab at it. I have long contended that I know Patrick better than anyone else in this blog.

      I feel from my knowing him from close quarters, that I am holding Patrick in check from what I feel would be, how he would use this blog. Of course that is not to say that I am right. Patrick as I see and know him, is intent on using this blog to denigrate both Arthur Janov and Primal therapy as practiced. I feel he needs to do this in order to justify his NOT getting what he set out to get from Primal Therapy. I feel I can say all this as I felt he ran his business is a similar manner. Since he was the sole owner his word was law, and it had to go his way. I could site several examples of some of his crews at one time wanting to go on strike due to his demands and many calling him a verbal bully. He’s used to having it all his own way … even the way that I developed a program (application) to run his business. We have quite a long history and I was fired more than 5 times only to be re-instated, almost immediately when he realized my value.

      All that aside, other than Gretchen no-one else challenges him until or unless he attempts to denigrate them. He sees being ignored as an opening to add his voice and to make his views the means of this blog.. It is why I see him reluctant to leave this blog. It’s serving his purpose and is his reasons that he claims I am being vicious against him, little considering that he started the whole process some three or for years ago on entering it … for the sole purpose to take his revenge on me.

      As I said to Margaret, if others are bothered by the ‘Jack and pony show’ it is a matter for them to look into that for themselves, it after all a feeling blog. Not that I in any way would want anyone to NOT respond to me. We each of us come to our own feelings in our own individual way, and it should not be out of bounds for anyone to refrain from voicing their upset-ness grievance or irritations.

      Jack

      • Phil: one other thing I want to add:- you say “It is just an endless argument, no one will win or can win.” I don’t set out to win that’s not the way I am dealing with it. I repeat, it is my intent to hold him in check, since knowing him well, I feel he’ll use being ignored as a means to go ‘full steam ahead’ to make the blog to HIS liking. So!!! I have taken it upon myself to do as; I FEEL FIT.

        Next you add “. You have said this is fun, which is hard for me to understand.”
        I find it strange that you think having fun is hard to understand and presumably not for this blog. I see it as yet just one other feeling … worthy of expressing IMO.

        Jack

        • Phil says:

          Jack,
          Of course I understand about fun; just not in association with the continuous arguments or discussions you have with Patrick. I wonder how much worse it could actually be if you didn’t attempt to hold him in check. He already denigrates whatever he wants and you haven’t shown an ability to stop that. I’m just not seeing how you can describe what you do as holding him in check.
          I did notice after your article here was posted you stayed quiet for a while, as far as responding to Patrick, and it seemed to me some change had been achieved, but that hasn’t lasted.
          Just expressing how I feel on all of this.
          Phil

          • Phil: I obviously fail to get through to you exactly where I am at in the Patrick Saga. However, I also feel, for what it worth, that you are not quite being direct with me. What is so terrible about argument?

            No-one stops Patrick whatever takes place … not even Gretchen. He needs a forum where he can put his conspiricy theories forward and defend them when he’s challenged. But he is capable of being waylayed, or put another way … distracted. That’s all

            Jack

            • Phil says:

              Jack,
              Nothing terrible about an argument except that the one with you and Patrick is so repetitive, continuous, and longstanding. Something about that bothers me in that it feels especially unproductive, not going anywhere, yet continuing.
              It’s kind of tiresome and frustrating to witness. Pretty much what I’ve been saying,
              just trying to summarize in a more direct way. My feelings to deal with, for sure,but probably good for me to mention.
              Phil

  401. Larry says:

    In my mind I know my wife died almost 7 years ago. I’ve been working on making a new life. It’s not easy for me to do. I can’t seem to put my whole heart into it. It brings up feelings, mainly of needing her, of being afraid, of being alone, and of being afraid and alone in childhood and until I met her. Somewhere inside part of me I think still hopes I will wake up and this will turn out to have been a nightmare and she will still be here, even though in my head I know she’s been long gone and is just a memory now. Little by little though I’ve been chipping away at the feelings, revisiting her dying and crying good-bye in ever so small, brief unbearable spurts, slowly shifting my heart toward alignment with what my head already knows.

    At home with a cold this evening, I rented and was watching the movie Jacob’s Ladder. The movie viewer doesn’t know until the end that the protagonist is on an operating table on the verge of dying. What we see in all of the preceding part of the movie is his subconscious allegorical struggle with dying, his resistance to let go of his life.

    Early in the movie we learn that his 6 year old son was killed in a car accident. At the end of the movie, the protagonist sees and approaches with tears of love in his eyes his little boy who is sitting at the bottom of a stairway. His son says ‘It’s OK Dad. Let’s go.’ and they climb the stairway up into the blinding light. And finally after what had been a valiant struggle the protagonist dies on the operating table.

    I began to cry as he approached his apparently reincarnated son, so glad to see his little boy. I suspended what my head knew, and let myself believe that I would see her again, that she is a spirit who could visit me and I could be with her. I cried imagining and feeling that I was with her again. The being together again felt real and strong and a great relief. I cried with my arms around her and hers lovingly around me. I cried feeling and telling her how good it was to be with her and how afraid I was to live without her. Then I saw all of my preparation in the many months leading to her dying, all of my being by her side, caring for her, loving her, making sure she felt loved so that she would not feel alone and afraid as her death approached. Then in my imagination and crying I was there again at the moment she died. This time, knowing and accepting and prepared that this is the unfolding of our life together, I cried deeply good-bye, knowing and more fully accepting that I will never be with her again.

    This evening I cried and felt good-bye more deeply than ever. I also sensed it is very important that I do, that I let go of living in the past, and that I put all of my strength and soul and being into making my life in the present, because I’m going to need all I have and can muster of me in the present to meet the challenges ahead of making a new life, especially after I retire in about a year.

    This evening I cried a sizeable, paradigm shifting chunk of good-bye. I know there is more to come gushing out, that I’m not ready yet to tolerate all at once.

  402. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > it is such a deep trauma to lose a partner.
    >
    > up to twenty years later I still occasionally woke up turning automatically to the other side of the bed to then be engulfed with the impact of him not being there anymore.
    > the first time that was regular, then it became more seldom, now it has not happened anymore..
    >
    > on another note, I had an interesting dream tonight.
    > I was in some sort of a group setting, think Gretchen was there, and I stood more or less in the middle, not saying anything, but listening to Patrick who stood a few meters behind me.
    > he was going on in what sounded like anger, and I am not sure anymore if there was fear mixed into it as well.
    >
    > I definitely started feeling distress and some kind of fear and then felt like going with it, and while I had a sinking feeling I let myself also sink to the floor.
    > then the sound of his voice became kind of muffled, still heard it but could not distinguish separate words anymore.
    >
    > I had been laying awake earlier on, feeling some kind of tension and detecting some vague fear in it.
    >
    > after the dream I thought about how my mom told me at some point she had had big arguments with my dad when she wanted to bring her first kid , my brother, home from the institution he had to stay in as she had to work as a single mom. she did visit him every weekend but felt terrible at having to leave him there.
    > when she got pregnant with me and formed a new family with my dad, my brother was about three and she did insist on bringing him home.
    >
    > my dad protested at first against the idea, and she told me she had become really angry at him and had told him he had known she already had a kid, and that he had to take her with her son as well or not at all.
    >
    > my brother then joined the family, don’t know if before or after me being born.
    >
    > but it occurred to me I might have already heard some of these arguments while still being inside her, being distressed by the muffled sound of anger and possible aggression…
    >
    > my brother wrote me today this preparing stage is bringing up feelings for him, and I relate to that.
    > he added seeing my mom being brave under the circumstances does something to him.
    >
    > I hope so much the transition which we plan for thrusday will go well, and that she can adjust and blend in nicely there…
    >
    > also sorting out the stuff at home will keep bringing up stuff as well.
    >
    > we will try to make her room cosy , as much as possible, but there is no way around some sadness involved in the process.
    >
    > I think part of my fear relates to the idea of losing her, among other things..
    > M

  403. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > well, in that case maybe Patrick can be the wisest and let it be.
    > M

  404. Phil says:

    It’s morning here and I had some weird dreams during the night. One of them involved having a ground hog as a pet. So many of my dreams involve having pets. A ground hog is not an animal to have as a pet. They live in holes, often under structures, and they can get into the garden to eat the vegetables, and they are considered pests. I don’t mind them much myself but I’m not sure what the part about pets means in my dreams or why that comes up so often
    The dream involved taking this animal out of it’s enclosure so that it could find food. In my neighborhood where I lived as a child, around people’s houses.
    Our neighborhood was a place where most people didn’t seem to mind kids walking through their properties, things were relaxed. But I think I often overstepped this freedom. I remember hanging out at friend’s houses even when they weren’t home or even at home but my friend unavailable I did this quite a bit and preferred that to going back to my own house.
    This morning I woke up feeling how this behavior had to do with a need to belong to a healthy loving family, unlike the one I had a home. That feeling was really there when I woke up.
    Phil.

    • Larry says:

      That is a sad image of you lingering in other people’s houses even when no one was home, rather than go to your own home, Phil. It seems to ring a chord in me. I am the oldest of 6 siblings. I feel very fortunate I had them to play with as a child. However I felt more and more estranged from them as we entered our teenage and adult years and they moved on with their lives whereas I felt unable to. Sometimes I look back and feel fortunate that I was with them in childhood. I feel I would have snapped had I been an only child, having to grow up alone on the farm with my remote, unapproachable parents and the already fragile foundation in life that I had.

  405. Margaret says:

    > I feel tense .
    > maybe the prospect of our mom moving out of the house, and having to empty it somehow does trigger a feeling of unsafety, of losing something..
    > also death comming closer into the picture somehow, fear, a vague apprehension of aloneness and emptiness and feeling lost and alone in a world full of strangers…
    >
    > all still vague but definitely making me feel tense.
    > M

    • Larry says:

      Aside from our waning strength and health, Margaret, I feel that the difficult aspect of being at our age is knowing we will be losing loved ones due to their old age or poor health in the foreseeable future.

      Earlier this month or sometime last month you mentioned that you thought adult emotional trauma felt worse than childhood or baby trauma. Why do you think so? I would have thought the opposite. Yes I feel it is a deep trauma to lose a partner, and I wonder how much worse it must be to be a child or infant and lose connection with a parent. If it is so hard to cope with losing my wife, how much more difficult it must have been to be a dependent, helpless child confronted with having no relationship with my parents.

  406. Margaret says:

    Margaret,
    We do have a goldfish. My son won it as a prize at the town fair over 5 years ago. It’s a good feeling having it and most such prize fish probably die within a few days, so we have been doing a good job with it.
    Phil

  407. Patrick says:

    Someone mentioned me and ‘conspiracy theories’ I think that’s a bit of a cheap shot (what else is new) anyway now of course the news is full of the ‘mass shooting’ in Florida. I have no indications at all at this point but I will be watching it from the point of view is this real? I am not saying it is not real I really don’t believe I ‘pre-judge’ in that way but I admit I will be holding my judgement on this and looking for signs of ‘fakery’ Does that make me an ‘un-feeling’ monster I don’t think so at all also there is no shortage of people putting bunches of flowers at the scene etc. Let them do their thing I will do mine maybe look at it this way we all have a job to do or a different take on things. I hope this does not sound disrespectful but my attitude at this point is sort of that thing about ‘fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me’ that thing that Bush messed up or could not quite get himself to say maybe he was too much part of the ‘fooling’………..

    • I too have just heard about the shooting in Florida. Apparently it was a gay club and there are 50 dead and 53 injured. This whole shooting thing going on is getting very, very scary. I have been responding to emails, being put out about gun violence and the need to do stricter gun checks, but to me that’s going to solve nothing as I see it. In my responses I suggest there is and easy solution … just repeal the second amendment and stop the manufacturer of guns and ammunition. That won’t prevent killing, but on the scale that killings are now occurring with assault weapons, it’s all getting way out of control.

      This is all throwing me for a loop and saddens me.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        …………..dare I say it as it is meant to………….I am sure you now can have more reasons for ‘tears to stream down your face’ and convince you are actually a human…………all of this ‘feeling’ seems to have done NOTHING in terms of moving you off your own frozen in time ‘version’ of events all ‘versions’ that bolster well your own ‘version’…………….anyway I should not get involved with crocodile monsters who stream tears also this will be another opportunity for endless grand standing through out the day…………I am already a bit ‘suspicious’ about this ‘event’ in FL you have the cartoon ‘bad guy’ the moslem maniac the ‘good guys’ these days at least the whole transgender reality that for some reason is being ‘promoted’ more and more…………….the ‘reason’ he went off supposedly was he saw two men kissing………………….see how ‘hate’ can distort people will be the message (I can imagine Gretchen weighting in on this one) how we all need to accept transgender-ism of one kind or another they are the ‘good guys’ of the Zio media complex or whatever the ‘bad guys’ are these kind of old fashioned moslems or even Catholics maybe………..also we all need to get even more ‘inclusive’ LGBT another letter has been added an “I” not sure what it stands for ‘inter-sex’ whatever that is I am sure we will find out soon enough so to be ‘proper’ now address them as LGBTI………….see how ‘up to date’ I am……………….

  408. Patrick says:

    This is admittedly ‘fake terror’ in the UK it’s what they call a ‘drill’ but looking at this can anyone say this is ‘real’ or ‘not real’ it would ‘pass’ as real it looks about as real as most all of these events though as I say this is admitted is just a drill. Anyway as I say I will be looking at this Florida thing from that point of view. Just maybe something to think about……………

  409. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    We do have a goldfish. My son won it as a prize at the town fair over 5 years ago. It’s a good feeling having it and most such prize fish probably die within a few days, so we have been doing a good job with it.
    Phil

  410. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > of course you are right as well, the impact of pain and trauma on a child is much bigger as it influences a being still in full development.
    >
    > on the other hand, I did notice last year how present pain as an feeling adult seems to go so deep, the immediate acute pain I mean. childhood feelings when re-experienced or connected seem to use a smalller layer while the pain I felt last year was more intense as anything I felt before.
    > probably the first time I felt the full impact of grief and hurt without any restriction or repression.
    > the pain was much deeper, is all I can say, but there was probably little to no impact of remaining unfelt residue.
    >
    > our mom is still surprisingly positive and actually curious about the change.
    > she knows we will work next week on sorting out her stuff with her and that the move is planned for thursday, and although she also acknowledges it takes some effort, she looks at it from the bright side, which makes me really proud of her.
    > M

    • Larry says:

      Margaret I think you and your brother are managing very well your Mom’s move to a nursing home. I missed out on that experience with my aging parents, as I live far away from them and my siblings living nearby my parents took on the responsibility of looking our for them in their old age. Seems like I missed out on all kinds of experiences with my parents.

  411. depressed by end-of-live. maybe more depressed than after attending my kid’ graduation yesterday and seeing row after row of happy young people bursting with energy, ready to pursue their dreams. all my dreams fell by the wayside. ha. what more can i say.

  412. Phil says:

    Very sad to hear about yet another shooting. So random to die that way. My son will be going to Orlando in August for a conference. I worry about him and his brother, they are such good kids. Luck seems to play a such a large part in things. I hope they will be lucky
    Phil

  413. Phil says:

    Unbelievable. Now I see they say 50 dead in the Florida shooting.What a world we live in. Life is sometimes good, but often terrible and it shouldn’t be that way. There is enough pain to deal with the usual expected life events.

  414. Margaret says:

    > jack,
    > well, it seems direct enough if you can read the implication.
    > M

  415. swisslady says:

    Larry, I can sense both the love for your wife and the depth of your grief of losing her in your writing. I marvel at your determination to say your final goodbyes and focus on making a new life. The hurt must be gut wrenching, and I imagine it can only be felt in small measures. It particularly touched me when you described your imagining your wife being with you in spirit.
    –Bernadette

  416. Patrick says:

    I still don’t really have a ‘take’ on this Florida business but it starts to have a lot of the ‘signs’ of fakery no real footage, no cell phone footage at least that I have seen just endless footage of police cars with lights flashing (like any street corner in LA). This is just something that occurs to me as a fruitful way into this and it is “Who is the OWNER of the Pulse nightclub”…………….he would have to be in on it (just like Larry Silverstein on 9/11)t that’s something I will try to find out. After a while and several of these I get ‘better’ at spotting and knowing where to look. But to be truthful I know little or nothing at this point but I am mighty suspicious……………..

  417. Patrick:

    Let me posit the question of fake terror in a different way. Back in late 2014, I pointed out that 500,000 Americans have been violently killed on our spiritually punishing automotive roadways since 9/11.

    I’m sure hardly anybody bothers to check, but I think the current number (as of today) is closer to 565,000 Americans killed since 9/11 in this manner.

    If I told you that 5,000 of those killings were fake and only 560,000 were real, would it really matter?

    Should I become excited or alarmed if it turned out that 5,000 out of that group of 565,000 violent endings were fake?

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – there is something about your question I can’t get my mind around I dunno if this is you or me. It just does not seem to connect……………….I don’t know if ‘fake’ or ‘real’ is so much the point I mean it is but even if the deaths in FL are ‘real’ and they might be though actually I doubt it. Of course it could be somewhere in between maybe there were say 5 ‘real’ deaths and the thing is then blown up to bigger proportions. I mean if say 5 really died unfortunately in the US that has zero ‘propaganda effect’ we need MORE than that and if you notice the number is stressed all the time.This is the BIGGEST (that is important) ‘mass shooting’ in the US that justified endless ‘talk’and also cements the ‘propaganda value” What is the propaganda………………..Muslims are bad and dangerous motherfuckers who might and can go off at a moments notice, they are inherently violent and not to be trusted (this is standard kind of Zio propaganda and we havc seen it many times before esp of course 9/11)……………..the ‘victims’ are a persecuted (though not any more) ‘minority’ that are picked on purely because of their difference they are harmless and peaceful (even wimpy) people who are of no danger to anybody except ‘hate filled’ maniacs this is also pretty much Zio propaganda and recalls the holocaust and lots of stuff of that nature…………….and the 3rd and maybe the major agenda is to separate Americans from their guns. Now I have always been of the belief that Americans have way too many guns and they do. I have never had a gun and have no desire to have one. So on the face ot if that makes sense BUT there is an ‘agenda’ here and I see nobody saying for example the Pentagon of the police need less guns. So it’s only the ‘people’ who need to give up guns and of course this ‘event is a very good reason to do that. But this is kind of the crux of the matter what IF and it is an IF but what IF this ‘event’ is staged………………….where does that leave us well guns are not so dangerous they mostly sit at home under the bed or whatever. Maybe another way to look at is IF it is staged WHY is it or would it be necessary to ‘stage’ it. Then you have a devious agenda I even have a good clue what that agenda of talking away guns is but I better not say at least just yet. I have thrown out enough for today but think about it a little bit……………..

      • Patrick: I took my own advice I gave Otto and drank three beers this afternoon. It was a reminder of how my alcohol tolerance is almost nil and I have to go to sleep. Like you, I’ve never owned a gun and I don’t like them; obviously no one wants to be a shooting victim. I was trying to convey arguments relating to statistical significance and everyday practical meaning.

        Patrick…you know, there is a special essay contest in Vermont where you could win a whole town’s newspaper, fully-staffed! If you win you could assume full editorial control and fight against the propaganda you see. Trying to explain the evils of propaganda here on a mental health blog would seem less effective than running an actual newspaper. You’ve run Gentle Giant before, so why not….a newspaper this time around?

        http://www.poynter.org/2016/this-vermont-newspaper-is-having-an-essay-contest-the-prize-this-vermont-newspaper/415777/

        • Patrick says:

          Wow Guru – that’s so ‘thoughtful’ of you though I wonder are you telling me politely to ‘fuck off’ lol………….that’s ok I probably ‘deserve’ it.

          There is something that I like about writing about it and other things of this nature here, maybe I ‘expect’ incomprehension and rejection………………like that is a re-creation of a lot of my childhood. People think I have daft ideas am just a dreamer etc it was pretty much like that also hostility and bullying even worse Jack can easily fill that ‘need’ lol

          But it is interesting at the coffee shop I go to in the morning I talked to some people about it and TWO said they thought the chances of it being ‘fakery’ were pretty good.. I find that encouraging like this kind of ‘brain washing’ is NOT total it seems that way on the surface but it you talk to people you will find well some ‘open mind’ at least as I think about it. Speaking of the coffee shop there are a lot of interesting people there and I really really like this kind of ‘bohemian’ as it used to be called but more well ‘open minded’. That also has a lot to do with the way I grew up very orthodox Catholic the ‘one true faith’ etc etc I crave(d) the kind of free and open minded environment. That is also why what I see as for examples Jack’s ‘fundamentalism’ bothers me so much, I just don’t like any kind of ‘true believer’ environment I react very much against it. This unfortunately for me goes pretty deep it’s like ANY group as soon as it is a ‘group’ it’s like something to deconstruct even say even been ‘married’ that’s too restrictive for me too much group think even a group of two…………………I am not at all saying this is ‘good’ just more the way I am…………..

  418. HELLOooooo!…Metal detectors, MONITORED video surveillance (like LAS VEGAS CASINOS???!!!), panic alarms, and armed doormen at schools, movies, bars,malls, etc. Not Big Brother, not 1984, but just what is really needed. If not these measures, then something more creative or simple. The fox is circling the henhouse and the Westerners need to start paying attention and looking over their shoulder. The war has come to our shores via individual madmen. Apparently it is too hard to shut down ISIS websites that are inciting these assholes. Too hard for the country who invented the Internet? Too hard for the country who listens to and records its citizens’ phonecalls? Or they are leaving the websites open so they can get more info on the terrorists. The more you kill their leaders AND OPENLY BRAG ABOUT IT TO THE PRESS INSTEAD OF DOING STEALTH STUFF LIKE THE POISONINGS RUSSIA DOES, they will be doing tit for tat with us. Or better screening in our schools. Look at this killer, he looks as unhappy as me, did no one notice as he was growing up? No, of course not, learning useless algebra and science gets all the money. RANT RANT RANT I AM FUCKING POWERLESS TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT HORROR HAPPENINGS SO I AM JUST RANTING, FOR CRYING FUCKING OUT LOUD, THE GOOD STUFF ABOUT LIFE HAS NEVER BEEN MORE POWERFUL THAN THE SHIT STUFF ABOUT LIFE. signed, Mr. Negativo. just crying, figuratively, not much else i can do, cant pick up a gun to shoot at the enemy, the enemy is everyone. ha ha ha wahhhhhh

  419. swisslady says:

    I’ve been feeling inadequate lately about everything I do. I am distracted by some undefinable pain, it’s putting my mind into a fog. The other day I ran a red light and probably got photographed by the traffic camera because I was not paying attention. In the session yesterday, I connected with a feeling concerning my dad. He made me feel stupid and dumb and worthless as I was growing up. For a start, he never was interested in anything I did. He didn’t take any notice of me, that is until I made a mistake and then he flew into a rage. I was playing good girl all my life as a child because I was afraid of his anger. Tiptoeing around him took up most of my mental energy and created a lot of pain inside, which I am only just beginning to acknowledge now. I am realizing that besides the fear that I felt of his anger, there was – still is – also a lot of pain because I basically didn’t exist in his world. I was being the good girl because I didn’t want to trigger his rage. But by being the good girl, I drifted into the background and didn’t get any attention from him. That’s the way he liked it. So I lived a life of basically non-existence in his life. I have tried to please my dad even as an adult. Desperately trying to get his approval until the day he died. Trying to prove to him that I was worthy of his love. Just writing this hurts my heart! I cried and screamed in pain in the session, called out ‘daddy, daddy, daddy!’ over and over again. Partly in disbelief that he just wouldn’t acknowledge me, partly allowing the pain to really sink into my consciousness now – he really didn’t care for me at all.
    This feeling is permeating my current life to the extreme. I am feeling inadequate, incompetent and unable to make any decisions, out of fear to do the wrong thing. I’ve said to Gretchen that it is like having two people inside me, the one that feels worthless, and the one that needs to keep functioning in the real world and that needs to keep defending against the worthless feeling. A typical conversation in my head would be: You can’t do this! You’re a dummy! I told you so! And then instant reply: No, I’m not stupid, I have a brain, I can figure this out, take control, and make my life happen! I have these two sides fighting inside – constantly! Thank you, dad! You really screwed me up big time!!!! I know I need to express more anger toward him.
    –Bernadette

    • Larry says:

      Reading your story makes ME angry towards him.

    • swisslady says:

      Larry, yes! and thank you for feeling some for me. And I know there is anger somewhere underneath that I need to feel, but right now I’m just hurting, hurting, hurting. And shaking with fear of having to face the loneliness, abandonment, and neglect that this feeling entails. The ‘good girl’ syndrome is preventing me to express the anger. In fact, I’m not even aware of the anger at this point. Only logically and rationally I would assume that there should be a lot of anger somewhere connected with it..

  420. swisslady says:

    In the session Gretchen asked me why I would try to please my dad until the day he died. My answer was because I am incapable of feeling any hatred against my dad, it would go against my nature to feel any negative feelings toward my parents and that to feel hatred would hurt me more than to feel love. I still think there is some truth to that because deep down that’s what we all are, we are love, and even though this sounds a bit ‘spiritual’ I do think that small children only feel love for their parents, and then pain because they are not loved back.
    But in the meantime, I have some new thoughts about the question. I think keeping the struggle alive kept my hope alive. As long as I tried to get his approval I didn’t have to face the fact that he didn’t approve of me, didn’t care about me, didn’t love me. No matter how hard I tried. Essentially, I kept the little girl’s hopes and dreams of having a loving daddy alive until fairly recently. And even to this day, I want to add a clause “well, he did love me some, he worked hard and took care of me in a material sense…” This is how incredibly painful this feeling is: my daddy did not love me. Not the way I needed him to love me as a child. This will take some serious primaling!
    –Bernadette

  421. swisslady says:

    Margaret, I can relate to the tensions and fears that you are sensing with the upcoming change in your mother’s life and losing your house. When we sold my childhood home after my dad died, I felt a huge sense of loss. For me, the house provided some respite from the harsh big world, every time I visited my parents. In a bigger sense, I still considered the house my home; I would ‘go home for a vacation’ for all the years I’ve lived in America. Having to give up this safe place was, and still is, tremendous pain and loss. It also signaled that the time of hope was over. There was/is no more hope to get my dad’s approval, now that he and the house are gone. Childhood is over. I am forced to finally grow up.
    –Bernadette

  422. Patrick says:

    Now the News are saying this ‘shooter’ was a devout Muslim and I guess attended Friday prayers like the day before…………….I dunno this starts to sound funky like there you go ‘devout Muslim’ and this kind of mayhem go together that sounds like what I call Zio propaganda……………..also this sounds too neat like it’s a ‘twofer’ it’s ‘terrorism’ that’s important get that angle in but ALSO it’s a ‘hate crime’ pure hatred of gays the ‘hate crime’ label important so no need to debate if it is ‘terrorism’ of ‘hate crime it is BOTH how beautiful is that it’s ‘homophobia’ and it’s ISIS too what a beauty and suggest ‘fakery to me at least so BINGO! this hits all the buttons. It checks all the boxes…………………….sounds fishy. Also as usual they show us NOTHING, no cell phones pictures or any kind of pictures. Everyone has a cell phone this ‘standoff ‘supposedly went on for hours but we have NOTHING, just a bunch of police cars sitting around flashing lights like I said we can have that for real in LA anytime we want. Where are the cell phone pictures or ANY pictures, I have seen NOTHING all day long. My money would be on ‘fakery’ very much on this one.now…………..

  423. Leslie says:

    If only you were smart,
    and if only you had a heart Patrick.

  424. you know, i only drink beer occassionally. but when i do, i prefer budweiser. or pabst. or dos equis. then maybe coors. stay thirsty my friend?

  425. sorry, i just have to say this. junior high, english class, writing sentences with a new vocabulary word, that was something i really enjoyed. invariably, my content would be about an indian and a groundhog. cant remember anything specifically, but something like, “the groundhog looked FORLORNLY at the Indian, who would not part with any of his cornbread for the groundhog.” The teacher Mrs. Bell, I dont think she appreciated my humor. The example that i just wrote is not particularly humorous, maybe i mean she did not appreciate my creativilty of using the same template of indian and groundhog day after day. she wasnt disagreeable, but maybe just bland, like the Italian food i had last night at my kid’s graduation party last night. I begged my wife to stop talking to me about the party in the car tonight, driving her 2 or more hour trip to the grocery storeS, which is always a boring ordeal for me. And it brings up a stench from when I was driven back to military school on Sunday evenings by my grandmother, on the every other weekend that my brother and I were allowed to come home. I begged her to stop talking about the party that she had planned for our son because i didn’t want to ruin how she felt so happy about it. But she kept fishing for how I felt about it. I told her I didn’t like parties, and I did not like being around people. I told her I dreaded the thought of going to it. I told her I did not particularly like the food, I love spaghetti, but not this particular restaurant’s. the busboy took my little plate of bread-dipping sauce of vinegar and oil, and I told him I wanted it back and he said he would bring more and didn’t. my wife said the chicken was juicyh and loved it. I said do you mean that dried-up breaded stuff? I said the table was pushed up so far towards the wall, that half the guests, including my disabled brother, had trouble getting into their seatsa. Seats-A, get it? I said the table did not have enough room for the food platters, very cramped. I said I did not like listening to my wife’s cousin’s husband, because he always bores me with talk about sports and fishing, and is too religious to be around, even if he says nothing about religion. My wife complained about her sister who complained there wasn’t any steak for her, and my wife complained that her sister’s husband didn’t say anything at all the whole time, and I felt I had to defend both the sister and the sister’s husband. My wife said she was so happy about sitting next to her AA sponsor the whole dinner, and I could not tell her that about one of the only good things at that dinner was seeing her sponsor’s nice boobs jutting out over the crowded table. The cake was one other good thing, hearing my brother’s step-kid talk about his job was good. I only got to talk to my brother for a few minutes, both at the graduation and at the dinner, I never see or talk to him much anymore, but had a 5 minute talk while he was taking a crap in the restaurant bathroom, and he now has another girlfriend at the old folks home, and hopefully this girlfriend will not die on him like his previous one’s have. He said he was in pain constantly and was going to take a pain pill and drive himself home after dropping his kid off in Long Beach. I told my wife after 40 years, you don’t know I don’t like parties? I can never hear much of anything in restaurants because my hearing is not good and the sound level rising makes it almost impossible for me to have a conversation. The speaker at the graduation said at the end, “Now go out and party!” to all the young graduates, and I felt bad for my son because he was years older, since a detour with drugs that was entirely my fault, kept him from reaching his dream while he still was a bit younger. I felt bad for him because he had to leave a good girlfriend in San Francisco to come down to UCLA to go for his phd, and has only had a few unproductive dates in the past few years since. I felt bad that he worked so hard for the phd that he did not have many friends. I felt bad that it was mostly old fogies at his grad party, although my younger son did come (the 2 have been estranged for a couple of years, but now trying to work it out, even though now the phd is moving to ohio for his job). I felt bad for my son because I took care of him a lot when he was really young and transferred a good enough amount of my people fear to him. My brother was making some kind of racist remark at the graduation, and I thought he must be talking about blacks, but then this was a chemistry department graduation, and while they were reading off all the names of the graduates, I could not believe that most were Chinese. Just funny, I knew of that repuatation, but almost all of them? Ha ha . I love our Chinese pharmacists at work, so Chinese yet so American. Idont know what I am saying. Just stupid shit. I love our beautiful Chinese pharmacists at work. Gorgeous. Anyway, what was I saying? My wife finally wanted me to go to a 3rd store tonight, to get an aluminum cake pan and took 20 minutes to do that, and there was nothing interesting on the radio, so I was starting to get edgy and she kept talking about this party, and I of course am telling her it was not my cup of tea. And I didn’t tell her how I felt bad for my son, who seemed to be artificially being a gregarious graduate and running around the table to talk to everyone who had come, mostly as I said before, a bunch of old fogies, but also his roommate, and his good friend that he made in SanFrancisco at uc berkely, but I feel bad bad bad for him, for what he went through with me and the old lady throughout his childhood, when we argued constantly. I used to walk around carrying him at nighttime after his birth, when his colic would not let up and he kept crying and cryinmg and my wife was recovering from her c-section so she could not help much, at her mother’s house we were staying while she reocovered. Anyway I finally blew up at my wife tonight bedcause now she needed chipotle (the 4th stop, and then she had already had said she had forgotten to get her chicken, which would have been a 5th stop), and I had driven her to the stores because she had diaraheea. Anyway I shouted and screamed you give me nothing ever, and you only take take take from me, and of course she is going to blame it all on old feelings. Right. She is going to go to Hawaii for 2 weeks and leave me alone with the sick cat, which she doesn’t really do much to help with the sick cat, and leave me with the 2 dogs who will kill each other if left in the same room, so that is a handful, and the kid’s dog is one of those dogs that cant be put in a kennel, doesn’t get along, so extra work for me, along with my overtime, but at least I wont have my baby wife to carry around for 2 weeks, and hopefully when she goes to Ohio to help the kid transition, she stays there for good. And my brother and I laughed about it when I told him yesterday. He knows she is screwy. I don’t know if he knows that I am screwy too, probably. He is definitely screwy. I am not polite to my wife anymore, I blatantly tell her to get away from me. In reality, she treats me like dirt, spending money on stuff she does not need, to my detriment. Whatever.

  426. Phil, your dream about ground hogs and the related feeling is very moving. I feel bad that that is how life played out for you. Your description of ground hogs as pests and taking the ground hog out of its enclosure to get its food is very vivid. But also the part about needing a healthy family and hanging out alone in your friend’s house. How bad you must have felt. I am so sorry that this happened to you.

  427. friends’ houses, not friend’s house. i meant. and i guess you didn’t mean that you were hanging out alone (or not alone) as such, but that it felt better to not be at home? well, you know what you mean, and that is all that counts. you said it well and succinctly and vividly.

  428. sorry, just trying without much luck, to not seem superficial and stupid. it was a really vivid thing you said.

  429. My poor fucking wife. My poor fucking me. BB, we might have saved each other’s lives by being together, but…? ouch ouch ouch

  430. Patrick: No, I’m not telling you to “fuck off” regarding the Vermont newspaper contest. You can stay as long as you want where I’m concerned. I do happen to believe all these shootings and so forth are real events. I have no doubt about that. The question for me is, “How much importance & attention should we pay to the matter?”

    For instance, I’m taking a semi-educated guess that 4% of the country’s population is gay/bisexual. That 4% figure may be inaccurate, but for the sake of brevity let’s assume it’s true.

    If 565,000 Americans were killed in automobile traffic since 9/11. It would follow that approximately 22,600 gay/bisexual Americans were killed in this fashion. (565,000 x .04 == 22,600)

    It would take the work of over 450 Orlando shooters to match this number. (452 x 50 killings == 22,600)

    Did this ever saturate the nation’s headlines or did we hold massive candlelight rallies for these people? No.

    So, I believe you’re correct in harboring deep suspicions of our news media. I just disagree with you on the reasons why.

    I just don’t like being told what’s supposed to be important and I have to follow the whims of Big Media like a little sheep.

  431. Patrick says:

    Guru – thanks and of course it makes sense to believe this whole story in that well why would you not. Anyway I don’t and I just checked youtube now there are up to about 8 videos that I saw that say it is a hoax. Here is one I could do several others and I must admit this guy does not really ‘explain’ why he believed the sobbing woman is a ‘crisis actor’ so I am sure there will be lots of better ones in a while but to give you the notion I am not the ONLY one who thinks this way I am far from being the only one……………..

  432. Margaret says:

    > yesterday my mom called saying she did not feel good, mentally.asking her more I understood she meant emotionally.
    > she said she had thought of calling me as I could make her feel a bit more up again.
    >
    > I noticed her being so straightforward about feeling vulnerable and needing support, instantly allowed me to really be gentle and patient with her in a heartfelt way.
    > she asked for my support and allowed me to give it.
    > she soon felt more hopeful again about the prospect of moving into the home, actually seemed to want it to happen soon.
    > we plan it to happen next thursday.
    > will go there tuesday with my halfsister to sort out cloths and linens and then we have wednesday to move stuff into the room, and I contacted her boyfriend this morning so he can be there as well on thursday afternoon to make the transition.
    >
    > I will give her a big box of good chocolates so she can treat the people there and make a good start..
    >
    > it is hard to see her being so vulnerable, yet so full of courage at the same time.
    >
    > I hope so much it turns out well, and hope she will not insist on going out on the street by herself as that will cause problems as it is not allowed without being accompanied by someone.
    > her boyfriend can go there at any time of the day and take her along.
    >
    > she will also have her phone on her room, so we will have to wait and hope and see how it goes.
    >
    > i think she also feels it is time to make the move, as her memory is failing her more and more and it affects other capacities bit by bit.
    > so we are doing the right thing, in a good way so far it seems.
    > sadness inthere though..
    > what you said, Bernadette, about selling the house and giving up hope was painful to read, it is indeed giving up hope and also accepting the inevitability of a final goodbye coming closer once more.
    >
    > Larry, I can’t start to imagine how it must have been to know in advance it was coming certainly for you and Noreen, and how it must have felt.
    > she was lucky though to have you by her side.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      It does sound like it’s the right time about your mother, and lucky that another room opened up so this could happen. It’s good that it’s happening but can see that it’s a painful process.
      Phil

  433. Phil says:

    Margaret, Your mother moving to the nursing home is significant and
    reminds me how my sister convinced my father to sell his house, our childhood home, towards the end of his life. It was right in that he was lonely and depressed there, but wrong because she just wanted to get at his money. He moved with her to Hawaii where they didn’t get along, and he felt lonely and abused. I had no complaints about the selling of the house and thought Hawaii sounded like a good place to retire. But it was a very rural area and my father felt ganged up on by my sister and her partner. They smoked a lot of pot, and drug dealers came around and freaked out my father. All of this he told me.
    Then he moved back to NYC in less than a year to be with me, with almost no belongings. I didn’t feel equipped to help him much but it turned out he was much happier with a lot of people to interact with in the city and able to walk to nearby stores. He formed a very good relationship with my wife and lived in his own small apartment.
    This whole thing was crazy and wrong, but my sister didn’t get any excess amounts of money from him. Something to do also why I have no relationship with her. and pointing out all the craziness in the family.
    Phil

  434. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > that is nice that he ended up finding a safe and pleasant place living closely to you and your wife.
    > did he remain there until he passed away or did he move to a nursing home as well?
    >
    > my mom is stil being brave and positive about her moving, I have to refresh her memory a bit but she is so much clearer now, I am so glad we managed to make the doctor diminish and then stop her medication.
    > let’s hope she does not end up with a horrible tinitus again.
    > and seeing her gathering up courage and looking at moving from the bright side, makes me wish all the more it will be a good experience for her there.
    >
    > the difficulty will be the room she gets will be remodeled next year, so she will have to move out to another room for months, but after that she can go back to a brandnew really big room on the spot of the first one, looking out over the garden, only one floor away from the cafeteria..
    >
    > she is much more pleasant again to talk with, and her boyfriend promised to be there on the moment of moving as well.
    >
    > that way hopefully we can make it a bit festive, like a nice new start.
    > she laughed when I told her I have a big box of chocolates for her to treat her new ‘neighbours’ on her floor, told her they would immediately start liking her for coming up with chocolates, and she chuckled and said she wanted to keep some for us as well.
    > I told her I had already opened the box, and had a few, but that there were plenty left.
    > it was a big box I got from my new Capeverdian friend when he came by..
    > i feel protective of her, hope they are nice to her and keep a good eye on her needs, specially in the beginning when it is all new.
    > she says she gets a lot of support from her boyfriend so that is good.
    >
    > it is a bit exciting really, it could turn out well..
    > M

  435. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    It seems like you’ve thought of everything to help make your mother’s move go smoothly. After many months it’s happening so quickly.
    My father lived nearby me in NY for only about 4 years and then passed away, without going to a nursing home. He never talked to my sister again after all of that. It was just crazy how everything happened. Lucky that living in NY turned out to be a good experience for my him. Unexpected because he was from that small town and lived most of his life there.
    Phil

  436. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > did you get to know him a bit better or on another level in these last years?
    > sometimes them meeting and as you say getting along well with your wife makes another aspect of them come to the surface..
    > did he get to know his grandchildren?
    > how was it for you to have him there ?
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      I guess the reason I mentioned it is because it’s such a contrast to the planned out move of your mother. No, I didn’t get to know my father better on another level. We were stuck on the same superficial level, and it was triggering for me to be around him. He didn’t meet his grandchildren. I see that you look for the “silver lining”. but the only one was that he was happier there, and that was good. Another being it satisfied him, I’m sure, seeing me with a wife, but otherwise I never got a feeling of things turning out right or the way they should have for him or between us.
      Phil

  437. (((Daniel))) says:

    The amazing thing is it looks like this guy in Orlando was on a terror watch list. Only in America can such a person lawfully get lethal weapons. Really, I know of no other country on earth who will allow it. I read that only a few months ago Senate Dems pushed an amendment to block people on terror watch lists from buying guns and it was shot down by you-know-who. Which brings me to another point –a terror event is a moment of unity no more but rather one for accusations and political leveraging. Just to show how divided people are and how much hate there is.

    By the way, if the shooter was a devout Muslim (which he apparently was) he was fasting. This is a very difficult period of the year for Muslims because of the Ramadan fast which lasts 30 days, during which they can’t eat or drink from approximately 4:00AM to 20:00PM. As the days go on, and especially during the first week which was now, many of them feel weak during the day, some on edge, easily irritated or provoked (My daughter used to be like that, lashing out and irritable when hungry) . Their financials also suffer because they gift each other and so must spend good sums of money.

    So, if you have Muslim acquaintances or bosses or employees go easy on them and forgive them if they are not themselves. It will end in Eid al-Fitr which marks the end of the fast some 22 days from now (perhaps also bringing a sigh of relief to intelligence services around the world).
    On another matter, Phil, to that list of the good things Janov finds in psychoanalysis we must add the whole idea of the unconscious and its unique ‘language’. Janov’s ideas about how Pain is stored and then symbolically expressed in thoughts and behavour is entirely reliant on Freud’s descriptions of the unconscious.

    And then the technique: sitting behind the patient who is lying is wholly psychoanalytic. And when Barry used to say to me, “just let the words come out, you’ll blurt it out” he was relying on free associations to lead the way (which were introduced by Freud). True, the final destinations may be different but the tools are rather similar. Janov added the total expression of the total body-mind which is an important addition.

    Funny, Patrick, you mentioned that series The Couch on the NY Times. I was actually going to suggest that the PI will consider publishing a case story there. Regarding ‘knowing’ and ‘not knowing’ – I think these are very central in thinking about human beings and in therapy. To these two I would add the perversion of knowledge – omniscience (knowing it all). I heard Barry say once (I don’t remember if he said it directly to me or just in group) that we want to think what we feel and feel what we think. I can’t think of a better definition for what knowledge and thinking (in its therapeutic and personal-psychological sense) is.

    As I’ve written here before, I think there is in every one of us a drive toward knowing the truth, the personal emotional inner reality, our own truth. And knowledge never equals the facts. Facts may be pseudo-knowledge and sometimes are a sort of acting out, for example, when I have to tell every little detail of my day to a friend or a therapist where the reality is that I’m evading knowing the need to tell everything. Or, sometimes I listen to my therapist and over time can guess what I’m supposed to do – for example bring dreams, or feel, and I do that rather than construct a knowledge of my own, something internal and personal.

    And I guess in life and also therapy there is a constant movement from ‘not knowing’ through ‘knowing’ to ‘omniscience’ (and back).

    • Phil says:

      Daniel,
      I haven’t read yet more of Janov’s articles on psychoanalysis but it is an interesting topic.
      Nowadays psychiatrists don’t do much talk therapy here; it seems to be all pharmacology. Few therapies go deep into the patient’s history. Any move back towards doing that would seem to be a good thing.
      It is crazy that someone on the terror watch list would be allowed to have guns.
      Phil

      • David says:

        Phil and Daniel,

        Phil wrote:”Few therapies go deep into the patient’s history. Any move back towards doing that would seem to be a good thing.”

        There’s signs that this is happening. This is an article that appeared fairly recently in The Guardian, citing research done by the NHS that showed psychotherapy to be the most effective treatment for depression versus the current “go to” treatment (if people seek help through their doctor), Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Which to my mind is the antithesis of Primal Therapy. Also, a recent study in Sweden has shown that people who had done CBT were no better off after two years than people who had no treatment.
        https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/07/therapy-wars-revenge-of-freud-cognitive-behavioural-therapy

        Re Omar Mateen being on a terror list, my understanding is that he was under investigation by the FBI for links to terrorism, but had been cleared. I still find it mind boggling that ANYONE could easily buy the kind of automatic weapon that he used in killing so many people in Orlando. I am cheering on Obama from afar in his efforts to take on gun lobbies and vested interests, but it seems change can only happen incrementally.

        • (((Daniel))) says:

          Thanks for the link. It was interesting and important fro all therapies aiming at the depth.

        • Patrick says:

          David – that is one of the ‘features’ of these kind of things, the perpetrators are pretty much ALWAYS known to the ‘intelligence services’ It was true of the Boston bombers the San Bernadino shooters pretty all of these guys in France and Belgium. This is not an accident. How it seems to work is these guys become ‘known’ to the FB! or whatever they are usually borderline small time criminals they may be in ‘trouble’ because of something they have done or said or may be ‘entrapped’ in one way or another. So the criminal investigation is closed but the relationship with the police etc goes on. They may be ‘turned’ or become informants or infiltrators of that kind and now they are well on the road to become what’s called a ‘patsy’. Oswald was a patsy (he even said so) in the end guys like him and probably the shooter here become putty in the hands of their ‘handlers’.Their ‘identity’ maybe becomes confusing even to themselves

          So then they are being set up to take the blame so probably this ‘shooter’ WAS there was in the club and if he hated gays or whatever all the better he now has a ‘motive’ but the real truth is he is there to be shot and blamed for whatever happens or don’t happen. I could be wrong but if you follow and read about these ‘events’ as I have a ‘pattern’ sort of becomes clear. This guy is not important and trying to figure out his motivations etc basically gets us nowhere he is in all likely hood being ‘handled’ by the security services and what he says and does as you can see already is highly confusing. It is confusing as he is confused the real action I am afraid is elsewhere.

          As far as ‘cheering on Obama’ that kind of changes IF and it is an IF this is a staged event precisely to create a clamor for gun control. Even that sobbing lady I don’t know if you watched it she comes out of her private ‘grief’ to make a very dubious sounding call for ‘gun control’. As I say before I was always for ‘gun control’ but now I see it a bit differently first off if these events are staged there is NOT actually a problem much of people going ‘off’ with guns but the ‘agenda’ in the staged model if pretty rotten first of all deception and maybe some deaths to achieve something they can’t seem to do with regular democratic means.

          • David says:

            Patrick, I take the world at face value and am not very interested in hidden goings on. I don’t know what strange, parallel universe you’re living in that you seriously entertain the idea that Orlando and other terrible mass shootings are staged events, considering the enormous complexity that would be involved in producing such a hoax. There are plenty of credible eye witness testimonies as to what happened, just check out this article as one example, the first related news item I looked at today:
            http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/pulse-nightclub-attack-shooter-radicalized-internet-orlando?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=177150&subid=15079204&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

            “As far as ‘cheering on Obama’ that kind of changes IF and it is an IF this is a staged event precisely to create a clamor for gun control.”

            Unfortunately, from what I’ve read, fear of more gun control has increased shares in leading gun manufacturers, as a significant amount of people are now expected to buy *even more guns* as a result of Orlando.

            http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/gun-company-stocks-rise-orlando-pulse-attack?CMP=fb_gu

            • Patrick says:

              David – speaking to the first link here it think it is interesting that Obama and the head of the FBI blames ‘the internet’ for ‘radicalizing’ this guy. The internet can be flaky and there is a lot of nonsense on there of course BUT right now it is pretty much the only place you will find any type of true ‘critique’ of what for example is going on with the ‘event’. I used to like and even ‘trust’ the Guardian I don’t anymore. I mean it is ok for ‘gossip’ and like the Huffington Post for a kind of weak seeming ‘enlightened’ view but is in the end always totally status quo. Which is not necessarily always bad but when the ‘status quo’ is leading us to disaster on so many levels a bit more is needed

              But this thing of Obama blaming the internet is another very bad sign the internet has snuck up and exposed a lot of the ‘establishment’ hocus pocus including by the likes of the Guardian and now just watch the ‘agenda’ will be to censor the internet as it ‘radicalizes’ people quote unquote…………………..or also it allows them to think ‘outside the box’ which is very much in danger now. You will see more and more of this kind of talk

  438. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > I am sorry to hear that, it is very sad.
    > M

    • (((Daniel))) says:

      It is indeed. At times it seems like mental health, and psychotherapy, have become just another actor in the marketplace.

  439. There will always be a minor few that will be inclined to THINK that some event or other is a hoax. BUT then there is a psychological reason for these minorities to want NOT to believe it. There are exception and the the one that comes readily to my mind are the politicians that feel “Climate Change due to human activity” is a hoax … but the explanation in this case is that if it were for real, it would upset their political agenda.

    It’s a factor of Primal Pain as I see it. The very young child, once it is able to somewhat have reasonings (noramally not until about agve seven) will develop various notions for why the parents do not love them; all the way from feeling there is something wrong themselves … to believing, that somehow, life is a hoax. Then there are all the other reasoning in-an-between. I see these as being the two extremes.

    I feel that Primal Theory is the best explanation ever proposed as to why so many mental and phyical deformaties occur in babies. I am less inclined to believe in the “genetic” factors, often laid out by the medical profession. I am also tempted to feel that much of the experimantal studies in that profession are more often than not on the wrong track. The enphasis always seems to be on cure rather than cause. Cause could help prevent future incidents … cure is only concerned with present sufferers

    Jack

    • Phil says:

      Jack,
      I’m currently reading Janov’s book “Beyond Belief”, which is a very interesting explanation for the source of rigidly held irrational beliefs, cults, religion etc. I’n finding it
      to be one of his better books. It’s how the prefrontal cortex and cognitive areas of
      the brain deal with pain rising from lower levels. It’s a defensive function to prevent that pain from reaching conscious awareness, is how I’m understanding his theory. The actual mechanism including that beliefs promote the secretion of pain killing endorphins.
      1st line pain is a primary source of the pain he talks about which is defended against in this way..
      According to him those beliefs tend to evaporate through successful primal therapy.
      He includes a lot of case histories.
      Phil

      • Phil: I remember reading that some time ago. I have lost some of the details as you explained in you post here which brought it all back to me. I think I have read everything that he’s written and absorbed most of it, if only on a peripheral level. BUT on re=reading some of his blog articles that I save, it all comes back to me. However, thanks for the reminder. it’s appreciated.

        Jack

    • An addendum to my last post:- Our Human beliefs and opinions are a factor of subliminal events: growing out of old feelings from childhood invaiably, as I see it. We are each of us inclined to feel we have an “open mind” and the other guy is “closed minded”. This gives us reasons to defend our beliefs and opinions.

      Another feeling occurred to me on reflection on my last comment, is meditation … a product of eastern thought going back for centuries. I indulged in several of these in my Ibiza (hippy) days, “quelling the chattering mind”. In the course of my therapy I have come to the notion that the greatest way to quell the ‘chatting mind’ is when having a deep feeling and expressing it. Grief is the best example I can think of. Larry reminds me of this in his postings about his deep grief over the loss of his wife; and his childhood.

      Once one is into such deep feelings (from my experience); it is impossible for the mind to contemplate anything other than the deep feeling. Meditation doesn’t quite get there to my mind. The Alexander techniques, though it emphasizes “just let yourself experience what is taking place and ‘non-do’; takes take one closer, but in my experience doesn’t quite facilitate getting into deep feeling. However, I cannot speak for others that have done extensive Alexander Technique courses.

      All this is me ‘head tripping, I grant. However, I usually spend my first several minutes of going to bed, reflecting on my day and often getting into feelings. This I feel keeps me in relative sanity.. I grant, others may feel otherwise.

      Jack

  440. Patrick says:

    Speaking of what some might consider ‘irrational beliefs’ it’s like where are the AMBULANCES, I haven’t seen one many many police vehicles but what are they DOING?……………just sitting there with lights flashing, I have not seen ONE ambulance or ONE body either dead or alive. I have seen ‘hurt’ people (who mostly look fine) being CARRIED…………..why? and carried from where to where it seems being carried back TOWARDS the club. I’m afraid it looks like a clear hoax if you know what to look for and from what I have seen so far a quite badly done hoax. So weird now this is the kind of world we live in……………..

    • (((Daniel))) says:

      Patrick, you might want to check:
      1. This summary from the Orlando Police Department.
      2. This list of victims from the City of Orlando’s website
      3. The Facebook page of the Orlando Medical Center (Especially their post from about 4 hours ago).
      4. Add to this statements from: Orlando Mayor, Obama, Tampa FBI (who heads the investigation); reports from the various media outlets, the club owners and people who were there.

      Finally, if you’re really into investigating it, fly down there and check it out for yourself – go see if there are funerals, check with hospitals, visit the club, ask the people living in the neighborhood, etc.

      • Sylvia says:

        Daniel, it’s a good excuse for not believing someone else’s tragedy then we don’t have to care about them. How convenient. Or maybe if it something bad did happen, well maybe they deserved it. Anything to not upset our equilibrium and rigid outlook and feel for another’s vulnerability and hence, our own.
        I watched a film about Julia Louis-Dreyfus’ dad, William called : “generosity of Eye.” where he gave his extensive art collection to the Harlem Children’s Zone for their education. He, a philanthropist always believed in giving back and helping people. He stated once when he was a boy riding in a rich relative’s car (an aunt or grandmother, I think) they had passed an obviously homeless man in tattered clothes begging for food or money. William wanted her to stop to help the man and she replied: “Oh no dear, you never know if they are faking it.” This astounded him that she chose not to believe what was so obvious. Maybe in our together lives we don’t want to be interrupted with other’s problems and jolted out of our comfort zone with someone else’s agony. Better to believe it’s all a hoax.

      • Patrick says:

        Daniel – that’s an interesting suggestion to go down there and when the San Bernadino ‘event’ happened I even tried to talk a friend into going over there with me (only about 70 miles from LA). But he told me he would have nothing to do with it………why? he said if we went nosing around there there is a good chance we would get attested of put on some list or other. I tried a few times to talk to him about it but he was adamant.

        Then I read later that whole building and it was quite a large one was in total ‘lockdown’ for about a month or more. In other words you cannot go in there, all kinds of temporary fences around it etc. Eventually I read it did open BUT the area of the ‘shooting’ was still in total lockdown no access etc So aside from not wanting to get into some kind of trouble it seemed it would be a pointless visit. But thanks for the suggestion in a ‘normal’ world it’s a good one I would say

        And this thing of ‘lock down’ is what I see now all the hospitals I am sure you can get nowhere near the club etc. It actually seems to me and perhaps this is just a bit exaggerated that the trend of these ‘events’ has gradually gone away from ‘real deaths’ to more ‘make believe deaths’ but now they have gone to the next level where really they almost don’t have to do ANYTHING……………..simply give a few press releases and TELL us what happened but we do not get to SEE anything. Pretty simple now it is becoming you have a slavish bought and sold media and a gullible public not so hard to do anymore. Just SAY what happened. I think they were shown up in Paris and Brussels with some of the absurd videos of ‘hurt ‘people including a guy clutching a plastic doll that was meant to be a ‘baby’ that now the strategy seems to be SHOW NOTHING then you can’t be ‘caught’ in anything. This is really becoming a kind of 1984 totalitarian society they will simply TELL us and we will listen and believe them.

        And if anyone tried to raise an alarm it will be put down to ‘psychological issues’ he / she suffers from we have even seen some of that here. And here as elsewhere a kind of chorus of ‘received wisdom’ is thought to be good enough. Fit it into some pre existing paradigm and about all don’t LOOK or THINK and since we are not allowed to SEE job done for now at least ……………

  441. swisslady says:

    Another feeling last night. I had been on edge all day long, the feeling I had in the session the day before lingered, and it was enhanced by my husband’s constant expression of his frustration about a certain project he’d been working on. I started writing about the feelings (on edge, queasy stomach, tensed) and it was not long that I had to lie down and let it wash over me. The teeth clattering, the sobbing and whimpering, the realization how scared I was to be attacked or yelled at any second. I remembered Gretchen saying “it’s a memory” and there I was, back home as a child. The terror I felt every day living with my dad. He could fly into a rage at any time! I was treading on egg shells around him. Constantly watching out: be careful what you say, don’t be too loud when he’s around. I cried quietly – don’t want to make too much noise, or dad will give me something to cry about – sobbing, heaving, quivering.

    Then the horrific memory: the family sitting down for dinner. We kids were in a good mood, as we just had brought home a new young cat, a red tubby. She kept jumping up and begged for scraps, and we kept putting her down to the floor. This repeated a few times, we kids were giggling and thought she was just the cutest thing. All of a sudden, my dad jumped out of his chair and without a word grabbed the cat and threw her out of the balcony door into the garden. My mother yelled out and ran after him, making sure the cat was alright, she was. My little brothers started crying with terror, my younger sister sobbed, I was in shock not able to express anything. My mother was crying quietly. Not a word was spoken. And we all had to sit there and keep on eating dinner.

    At this point I’m crying in pain! The terror! The absurdity! The realization that my dad is a horrible man. I felt deep shame about having a father like him. Not being able to tell anybody, of course. This kind of secret stayed in the family. Feeling sorry for my mother who was clearly scared of her husband and didn’t dare doing anything more than sit there and cry. Now I’m wailing in pain, and my husband walked in and sat with me. I told him the story and the pain got even deeper. At this point I also remembered another scene, when my dad had beaten up my younger sister because she had come home late. It was a similar traumatic event that we all had witnessed, and in fact, it was the first primal feeling I was able to connect when I first came to therapy. Yesterday, as I remembered this second scene, there was another realization: after the incident, and after my dad had left the room, my mother hugged and comforted the little ones, they were crying in terror. I stood there watching them being hugged and comforted. I wanted to go to her – but couldn’t! I couldn’t let myself get hugged and comforted. Something inside kept me away from my mother. Oh the pain at his point! The realization that I was all alone!

    On a good note: as the memories are coming back and I’m finally able to acknowledge my fear and express the emotional trauma, it seems that the physical tension in my body is easing off. I have noticed a deeper relaxation in my muscles, my joints ‘popped’ in several areas indicating a release of tension. I think I am on the mend on all levels. More to go, I’m sure.

    This feeling is very important for two reasons: one, I have remembered this scene before, and have talked about it with an emotional detachment. It was only yesterday that I was finally able to feel the horror and pain surrounding the incident. Two, not until yesterday I remembered the last bit when my siblings got hugged and comforted and I couldn’t let myself have the same. I’m sure my mom would have hugged and comforted me just the same, I just couldn’t go to her. This is a new memory and it pains me to a great extent. I’m not sure why I didn’t go to her.
    –Bernadette

    • Phil says:

      Bernadette,
      What a way for your father to behave with his family. I can see why you’d call him a horrible man the way he terrorized you, and then being alone and unable to turn to your mother must have made it that much worse. It sounds like such great progress getting to all those feelings and connecting them to the memories.
      Phil

    • swisslady says:

      Phil, Thanks for your supporting comment, you summarized it perfectly. What’s amazing to me is that it took me all these years to finally acknowledge and express the feeling, even though I have known about the incidents for a long time. I’m happy and joyous that the process is working for me. I am sad to acknowledge that my father was such a horrible man at times.
      –Bernadette

      • David says:

        Bernadette, sounds like you are continuing to make great progress, feeling the feelings and experiencing great calm and relaxation as a result. That’s great! It’s a really horrible and frightening way for your dad to behave. Like he just wanted to destroy any fun or good feeling that was in your family out of his own anger and bitterness.
        My own most recent feelings about my family have been feeling “I’m sorry” over and over, that I must have been a terrible disappointment to my parents for them to have treated me the way they did. I don’t feel this relating to any specific scenes though, like you do. I just feel these feelings as they applied in a general way to my childhood.
        Having said that, I haven’t felt any big, old feelings for a couple of weeks now, which for me is quite a long time. So I guess I am in a period of hiatus and/or recalibration at the moment.

        • swisslady says:

          Hi David, thank you for your kind response. When we first started our conversation, it was about sexual abuse; I guess I am taking a bit of a detour here. But in the end, I think it all fits together. If I want to find out who the perpetrator was I have to face the fear of knowing. Acknowledging the fear that I had as a child of my father is making me stronger and will eventually lead to the fear of finding out who raped me. I’m stunned at how difficult is has been to consciously acknowledge that my father was such a frightening presence in my life. Today I’m feeling vulnerable and weak; can’t warm up physically. My body is feeling like a little child and my brain is trying to force it to act like a grown-up. I’m also thinking that I am a different person today than I was yesterday, not sure what that means. I’m also thinking that at one point as a child, I took on my father’s personality, like I incorporated his own fear and anger into my person. I’m not sure what that means either, but I’m thinking and feeling it. It will all come out in the next days and weeks… I can sense that my body needs a rest for a few days.

          I’m wondering whether your feeling “I’m sorry” also relates to your current situation with your female friend, for whom you can’t be what she wants you to be. Just a thought. I am trying to relate to your feeling “I’m sorry” as it seems to resonate somehow with me but I can’t get a handle on it. If you wouldn’t mind, could you write more about it? I’m sure I will have to feel it, too at some point in the future. It seems more difficult to feel a general feeling like “I’m sorry” as opposed to having a specific event to focus on. I can see the little boy that you were trying to explain why your parents treated you so badly, when all they should have done was love you as you were.

          I can’t say more at the moment, my adult brain doesn’t seem to function very well, but I wanted to reply to you as I’m grateful for your kind comments.
          –Bernadette

    • Larry says:

      It really hits me how your father’s unpredictable explosions of anger and violence made him dangerous to be around, and your mother being too weak to protect you…all created a very precarious and frightening atmosphere for a child to grow up in, not at all a home in which to feel safe, loved and emotionally nourished.

      • swisslady says:

        Larry, thanks for your kind comments. You are right, I didn’t feel safe most of the time. I’m just beginning to realize and feel how many needs I had to repress because of the frightening environment I grew up in. For example, I never knew before that I had to give up laughter and joy only to stay safe around my father. He couldn’t tolerate any happiness; he was mostly stern, angry and miserable. Because of his upbringing, I think it actually hurt him when people/children around him were happy and he didn’t know how to deal with it, so he controlled it/us. I’m still in awe when I see men laugh and have fun. It’s truly astonishing.
        –Bernadette

  442. Phil says:

    David, that’s an interesting article. I’ll be glad if the tide is starting to swing against cognitive behavioral therapy, although maybe it’s better for some people. These things take time to change. Like all the low fat dietary items on the grocery shelves, when the emphasis should change to including more low sugar or sugar free items.
    Ironic if CBT is found to be not so evidence based after all, as has been claimed. Insurance companies would need to come on board with the idea of paying for longer term therapies, which they will be very reluctant to do.
    Phil.

    • David says:

      A friend of mine says CBT helped her by giving her life some structure. Maybe it can be helpful for some people in the short term, but I don’t see how it can help to affect deep, lasting change.
      Yes, it would make sense that insurance companies, as well as many politicians, would prefer CBT as it’s fast and cheap.

  443. To carry out a hoax on such a grand scale is almost impossible. I would require a whole host of participants and and months of practice. I doubt, that it would be impossible to keep that many people in line. Someone would inevitably “blow the whistle” on the whole scam.

    Jack

  444. Mind if I write this down as a piece of internet scratch paper?

    If the Orlando incident stimulates an average of 20 minutes’ worth of conversation amongst each of 500 million people worldwide, it will have meant that 167 million man-hours of attention was spent on the subject.

    I will generously place the average human lifespan at 80 years, with 16 waking hours each day. Each human would have an average of 467,000 waking hours from birth to death.

    With 167 million man hours’ worth of attention paid to the subject, it will have meant that attention to the Orlando subject will have completely encapsulated the life spans of 357 additional people on a longitudinal basis worldwide. In other words, taking a tiny slice of life’s attention (20 minutes) from 500 million people across the globe would add up to 357 entire lives’ worth of attention irreversibly gobbled up in this one single story.

    To me, this speaks greatly to the frightening power and heft of the news media.

    • Phil says:

      Guru,
      I think attention to particular news stories works according to supply and demand.
      For example the media presents a lot of stories about Donald Trump because the public likes and wants to consume those stories. The same with the Orlando killings. The public has an interest in this story and wants to know more. The media wants, of course, to maximize it’s ratings. People aren’t that interested about traffic accident stories, so the media doesn’t give that attention. The media knows from past experience what kind of story sells.
      The evening news focuses on hard, bad news like murders, rapes, and house fires because the public apparently likes those stories. Often they will end the program with a nice human interest story to lighten the mood. They must have found that is something that pleases the public and helps with ratings.
      Phil

      • I can’t discuss this much further for now, but I’m not so sure that many people in the public want to see the story rather than just accepting what’s handed to them out of thin air. I suspect the public tend to follow the path of least resistance and accept that what others think is important should be accepted by themselves as important in tandem. It’s just perceived as safer that way.

        I’m certainly not placing myself above the fray in following the path of least resistance.

        Interesting subject, but I have to stop here for now.

        • Phil says:

          Guru,
          if a particular media outlet doesn’t fully cover a story like what happened in Orlando people will change the channel, or click on the website that does have it, I think. The public has trained the media as to what they want, not the other way around.
          I am talking about the public in a statistical sense. They don’t care what you want as an individual, it’s number which concern them Of course, there are “niche” markets of people who want different stories and that is satisfied too, but the media coverage will reflect the size of that market.
          Phil

          • Phil: I inclined to agree with what you say here. the media is a profit making entity and as such does it utmost to garner the greatest profit.

            To add to my agenda … that will remain whilst money and barter, is the means of exchange.

            I consider profit to be a dirty word … but then that’s just me. C’est la vie.

            Jack.

  445. Patrick, I thought Daniel’s advice was excellent and in fact I know of someone who is bringing their “therapy dog” to one of the holding areas to provide comfort to those impacted. I was curious why you posted the link of the woman crying yesterday . At the time you said that you were not certain what was real and what was not. It’s basically a mother crying while an idiot says it’s fake in the background. Certainly it’s evidence of nothing ( which you admit) except that it was made by a fool and actually if you had bothered to look into her story you might have thought twice about posting that ….. so why did you want any of us to see it? If it’s true that you still believed this incident was real and not one of the numerous hoaxes you believe have occurred then wouldn’t posting a mothers grief at the loss of her son while being mocked as fake be the ultimate cruelty? If you even believed for a second that these deaths occurred ( which you claimed you did as you said you did not want to rush to judgement) then I would think you would have some empathy for what would have to be the worst pain imaginable. The loss of a child. As for the owners of the club… A subject I noticed you dropped…. You likely know by now they are not Jewish but Catholic. Something that has zero relevance except to you. Gretchen p.s. As an aside of course people are not going to be allowed to wander around a crime scene but there are plenty of other opportunities to help in these situations. Also why make accusations and then ignore the real evidence Daniel sent ? Why not address it? I notice you do that quite often …. You make a claim and then when confronted with real evidence you say nothing , you pretend it does not exist and you are on to the next thing. I don’t want a response but you might want to think about this.

    • Patrick says:

      Wow Gretchen you sound pissed! I don’t have a problem really with that I am sure in some way I ‘deserve’ it but a few things. About that ‘mother’ well I put it on there as it seemed pretty fake to me and the guy who did the video I thought at times was overly sarcastic I wondered if anyone here would have a reaction

      Why do I say it seemed fake? Several things she goes on about her son who was with his boyfriend and though she seems to have no idea where her son is she ‘definitely’ knows his boyfriend was shot ‘multiple times” How could she know that? The thing that looked quite strange was when the reporter asks her her son’s name. She had to pause and then after quite a while she says it in this very stilted way and uses his first and last name like you would for a complete stranger………………………..not how you would refer to you son. It looked iffy and of course maybe only to the likes of me who is quite skeptical about what is going on already She is ‘crying’ but wearing sunglasses also she seems to be ‘reading’ from a script she is looking down a lot. Another odd thing was the
      way she suddenly launches into a kind of speech about ‘gun control’ Again to me at least it seemed very artificial and ‘staged’. But I dunno if any of this matters but you did bring it up and quite strongly and have this kind of ‘condemning’ attitude towards me for lacking empathy or whatever………………….well excuse me I AM very skeptical and this ‘mother’s’ grief may be genuine but it is quite possibly ‘fake’ and I resent been taken for a ride like that if that is the case. I DO have a right to question and use my mind you won’t and can’t take that away from me.

      About the owners of the club I was not thinking of the “Jewish” angle at all, my point was and is this is very often a useful place to look. IF this is a ‘staged’ event you KNOW the owners will be in on it Jewish or not. BTW ONE of the owners is Italian American I don’t know about her partner maybe you do I could not find much on him. Another aspect of this ‘ownership’ thing is quite often the ownership CHANGES before one of these ‘events’ It happened in 9/11 was bought by Larry Silverstein a few months before 9/11. Also in Charlie Hebdo one of the Rothschilds bough the magazine about a month before the ‘event’ the shooting As a matter of interest the new owners in both cases were Jewish and both profited handsome from the events but what I think is just as significant is they were there to make the ‘deal’ for the ‘event’ to occur. In Paris also the Bataclan club was sold shortly before the ‘shooting’ there. So though Jews seem to be involved in these deals far in proportion to their numbers in the general population this was not actually my point. My point was WHOMEVER owns the club might be a good place to look for an explanation.

      Daniel was nice enough to send me those links. I have not looked at them but see I am already pretty dubious about anything of this nature. If there is a ‘fake terror’ event going on my understanding is pretty much all local agencies etc are quickly and totally over ridden by Homeland Security, FBI etc etc. I certainly doubt that I would be able to glean much of anything useful and as I say I AM very skeptical already. This is based on reading a lot about previous ones and I’m sorry but this has all the hallmarks of a ‘fake’ maybe even a badly done fake but that I think is now the strategy now next to NOTHING and then you can’t be ‘caught’ in anything. Pretty lame and disgusting.

  446. Patrick says:

    This is about the most interesting video I have seen about this Florida ‘event’ Two young Australian guys just talking freely about it. I found it especially interesting in the later parts where they kind of go into ‘conspiracy theories’ in general and sort of how it all holds together or doesn’t as the case may be. The main guy has this “Hierarchy of Hoaxes” idea based on a pyramid model and how it can really change a person’s world view in pretty profound and important ways. It drags a bit but I really liked it

    • Maybe you could start your own hoax or conspiracy theory blog.

      Just “food for thought”

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        That’s fair enough but even that is a ‘club’ I do not necessarily want to belong to. I remember around this time last year Phil suggested I just go on some ‘anti-vaccine’ websites and I told him I did not feel like doing that. It seems for me it is something ‘more’ than any particular ‘hoax’ or whatever word you want to use. Phil even suggested another time I should go on the ‘debunk primal therapy’ blog and that definitely did not appeal to me. So it feels I am ‘going through’ something and here as much as I complain is still the best place to do it. So that is why I always ‘praise’ Gretchen for making this available even if I do have some differences with her about specifics. Maybe even make that a lot of difference. But isn’t that the point we CAN have differences or even BE different and still keep talking.This might even be what is called ‘inclusive’ even in the true sense………………..you said about a week ago how I think differently than anyone else on the blog and I thought later yes I do I see nothing wrong with that.

  447. B, you still my hero! your childhood bad, but now you feeling it big time. inspiration to all of us primal people. You go girl!

  448. I have gone back up in this blog and read some stuff i missed because there is just too much going on here. Basically, all the talk and opinions about how PT is SUPPOSED to be conducted not only pisses me off, but more importantly, makes me feel small and stupid and like i am not going to get anything, no matter how hard i try. I shoved a bunch of food down my throat without a second thought tonight. i am not living the primal vida loca. I will go Saturday to the PI if BB is there and resume or try to resume crying, since i missed it last Saturday. I will go to joint session with wife and BB in a week but that will not be of much use to me, only to her. We got married because she said maybe her parents would then give us money to do PT. 10 years later, I finally got PT and really could not afford to go much at all. That continues to this day. hmmmm. what a pity party, like they might say in AA. ha ha ha.

    • swisslady says:

      Otto, there is not one correct way therapy is supposed to be done. YOU dictate how you do your therapy. Your way. Your pace. With the help of BB, you will get ahead. Keep crying or get pissed off, if that’s what you feel you need to do. Keep feeling. You’re doing good!
      –B

    • swisslady says:

      On second thought, it’s your body and your feelings that dictate the course of the therapy. Follow the feeling…

  449. Sylvia says:

    This being a feeling blog, if someone were to tell me: “I don’t want to be taken for a ride; fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” and such phrases I would have to think those feelings had some importance to them. Is it just the fun and adventure of picking a situation apart and looking for pieces of a puzzle to determine whether something is a hoax or not. A lot of these people have their minds made up before all the evidence is in. It’s almost like a big terrible event serves as a set up of an earlier helpless situation (in their young lives) being replayed, but this time with a winning outcome: ‘no one is going to get one over on me.’ ‘ No one, big govt., is going to take advantage of me.’ ‘I know they are lying.’ I don’t know–it’s late and I had a thought about this.
    S

    • Patrick says:

      Sylvia – what you say there has a ring of truth to it for me I mean. There is a kind of ‘thrill’ for me in ‘seeing through’ these things which I am sure relates back to my childhood etc. But then EVERYTHING relates back to our childhood this is not of any real use in trying to establish the ‘truth’ or not of any of these ‘events’. You could equally say most people just believe what they are told, they mostly had no ‘freedom’ as kids but were put in schools and taught to rote think and just to memorize a bunch of ‘facts’. So now in their adult lives they are incapable of questioning anything just slop up whatever is put in front of them. But yes that’s a good point you made imo……………

      • Patrick: from my perspective, this is about the best comment you’ve made in a long long time.

        I don’t necessarily agree with all you say, but acknowledging that it all relates back to childhood; is a start (blog wise). However, you then go on to say “this is not of any real use in trying to establish the ‘truth’ “. I disagree here on two counts;
        1) Searching for “the Truth” is a forlorn task. That is why in the book of mine you read, I took issue with “truth & false”.
        2) I personally have gained an enormous benefit from going back (not remembering), but allowing myself to cry when I feel bad, OR thumping a cushion or pillow when I’m pissed, which in turn takes me back to earlier events.

        The benefit are two fold, the first: after expressing the feeling, the issue is over … for the current situation. For me, that is the very key (linchpin) of Primal Therapy. The second is I can now get on with the matters of the day, without being bugged or distraught over the issue.

        All this is JUST ME … the good, the bad and the downright ugly of me … as other see and relate to me. That I get fun out of “poking you” is my way (and seemingly ONLY MY way) of dealing with your comments being directed at me. AND you started the whole thing however you wish to characterize it. Some have suggested that it is an ongoing argument. I do not see ‘poking you’ as an argument, but then I know others see thing their own way, and I can accept that. That’s another benefit for me about this therapy. I paid for it … I did it … I stayed with it … and I got a lot out of it. That’s it for me, and In no way can I speak for anyone else … nor do I believe anyone can speak for any other. Doing so is (for me) what eventually leads to 95% of our problems being human, relating to others, and the ultimate … wars.

        Hope I have made myself clear. Meantime, I love commenting on blogs. my fuck-up if you’d like to classify it that way.

        Jack

  450. Margaret says:

    > Dear Bernadette,
    > that is such a painful story.
    >
    > what a terrible jerk!
    > M

  451. Patrick says:

    Obama is on TV saying oh no we should not ‘demonize’ Muslims or ‘discriminate’ or ‘target’ etc etc blah blah blah but on the other had we are ALWAYS in these ‘terror events’ presented with a Muslim villain. When was the last ‘event’ of this kind that did not have the Muslim villain? Now this gets very insidious IF Obama’s government is actually ‘constructing’ and actually carrying out these events as It seems they are. It’s like a parent telling you she/he ‘loves’ you but all the time DOING stuff that shows he don’t. So if we are into giving ‘psychological reasons’ for anyone’s particular belief or take on things that can be applied all over the place. And in this instance I think it should we are all traumatized people who almost are ASKING to keep on being traumatized. That way we never notice…………….. just keep giving me more of the same that way I never have to look up and see…………..

  452. Patrick says:

    Last word (for a while) on this Florida thing. WHERE ARE/WERE THE AMBULANCES.? 50 dead and more wounded USUALLY need lots of ambulances and all we have/had is huge numbers of police cars flashing lights no bodies no wounded no ambulances…………….makes sense no? Just about everything this guy says makes so much sense

    • Update: On the PBS News Hour tonight (Tuesday) ,at the end they spent several minutes showing each of the photos of those killed in Orlando, along with their names.

      I personally see that if this was a hoax, fake or a con job … for whatever reason .. this would be impossible for anyone to deny. One of the people photographed would turn up somewhere.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        Jack – I agree on the face of it that would seem to settle it. But and I am tempted to put it this way it SHOULD settle it……………….however we are faced with the fact that it doesn’t. That of course could and would be disputed but ‘experts’ on this kind of thing probably the best is a Danish guy called Ole Dammegard says this can and has been carried off before. It is admittedly ‘complicated’ but don’t you think 9/11 was complicated or the assassination of JFK also.I am aware of course the are ‘complicated’ if they are ‘inside jobs’ which I truly believe both of those were. So IF they were inside jobs……………..there you have it it CAN be done. If they can pull off 9/11 they can pull off 50 people dead in a club in Orlando.

        How? They can create identities’ social media identities etc etc. Dammegard says if you try to check into the ‘dead’ you will typically find a very short ‘history’ in other words a ‘constructed’ person. I really have not thought so much of the details of how this can be done but he say it can but more to the point it HAS. Where? In both Paris events and Brussels also so it is the ‘new’ way actual deaths are messy, relatives bug you for the rest of their lives, lawsuits etc etc. I think this Dammegard guy is very sound very reasonable thorough and fair unfortunately also he is also a bit boring and wish I had one good video of his. They are rather long and plodding so I don’t expect you to watch all they way through but let me find what is hopefully a good one and see what you think. I don’t think this is necessarily the best one but is typical of his work

        • I read this comment of yours Patrick, and my first impression is that an assassination like Kennedy’s is not about a president who died from a gun shot wound. It not disputed that Kennedy died. The disputes arises out of, who did it, and for what reason.

          This one is far more complex in that it is reported there are 49 + the alleged shooter are dead. I personally would find it a bit of a stretch to imagbine it was a hoax, fraud or con. For what reason the hoax????? Therein is the REAL question. Stating that YOU saw no ambulances could be for a variety of reasons. I feel are pushing to PROVE something. Why the need to prove anything???

          For me I just watch the news and for the most part take it as a given; until such times as someone ‘blows the whistle’ OR suggest some over riding, nafaious motive for the story. All other avenues to me are not worth me getting “my knickers in a truss” about.

          What I find a little disturbing is that you seem to NEED to spread the notion of a scam. I am not sure from my perspective this serves you. If you were to relate this to simple feelings of yours; one blogger on one ‘feeling’ site, that would be worth something appropriate to this blog IMO.

          To and for me; there is something missing here. Why are you making all this effort??? That, I feel, would be a more interesting and appropriate question … both for you, and for the blog in general.

          I am aware that you push for us to keep in touch with world events. Kunstler offers a better blog for such ideas and discussions.

          Jack

  453. (((Daniel))) says:

    Charlie Hebdo is not nor has it ever been owned by a Rothschild. The mere thought shows absolutely no understanding of what the magazine is or what the Rothschilds are. It was founded and has always been owned by a few employees. If you’re interested, in the years before the 2015 attack the owners were, Charb (Stéphane Charbonnier, 600 shares. He was assassinated in the attack), Riss (Laurent “Riss” Sourisseau, 599 shares. Wounded in attack), Éric Portheault (299 shares), Cabu (Jean Cabut, 1 share. Assassinated) and Bernard Maris (1 Share. Assassinated).

    Today, after the remaining owners were assassinated, only Riss and Portheault own the paper. I have no idea if any of the names above are Jewish but they don’t sound Jewish.

    Larry Silverstein, who is Jewish, did lease the WTC from port authority for $3.25 billion. His insurance paid him $5 billion. The estimated cost of 1 WTC and 2 WTC is $3.8 billion each and for 7 WTC is $0.7 billion. That puts the total rebuilding costs at $8.3 billion.

    At the time of 9/11 the twin towers and building 7 were fully occupied. That is some 5.6 million sq. feet. Rented out at Manhattan prices (some $45-$75 per sq. feet) you’ll get some $300 million annual revenues. I have no idea what Net Operating Income was, but if it was even just a third of that we’re talking about $100 million of lost profits each and every year the office spaces are not rented out, beginning September 2001. It will be years before the buildings will be fully occupied again. This will add to the bill perhaps another billion in lost revenues.

    I don’t know – and can’t make the exact calculations with all the various debts and proceeds – if Silverstein will eventually make a profit or not. But, neither do you. And insinuating that he somehow managed all this to make some uncertain future profits that he certainly does not need, while risking lifetime imprisonment and going down in history as one of the vilest men ever to walk this earth, and somehow masterminding a bogus committee report and bogus .. everything else… makes no sense whatsoever in the world of facts and reality as we know it.

    The only place such notions make sense is in the realm of mental phenomenon which is why people put it down, as you say, to “psychological issues”.

    • (((Daniel))) says:

      This is all mixed up. Libération is a big daily in France. After the attack at Charlie Hebdo Libération gave the Charlie people a place to meet and work so they can publish their next issue. That’s all.

      Rothschild’s comment was about them acquiring a third of Libération. They have no ownership in Charlie Hebdo. It is exactly the kind of thinking that I referred to that enables people to take this detail and twist it to their political agenda. I’m sure none of the websites that published this nonsense has any editorial standards and responsibility.

      This is post modernism run amuck.

      • Patrick says:

        Daniel – you may be right about this. I really don’t know and was ‘repeating’ what I heard at the time (Jan 2015) At the same time I think there is ‘some’ connection there what it exactly is would probably take about 100 lawyers and in the end the situation probably still would not be clear lol……….

  454. Margaret says:

    > just came back home after spending all day long together with my halfsister, sorting out my mom’s cloths and sheets and towels etc.
    > boy, I think we found at least 50 pillowcases and 30 sheets and wardrobe after wardrobe, full of tops and skirts and sweaters , all forgotten in our former rooms on the attic, but some of them really pretty.
    >
    > there was so much in the end we started using the pillow cases to put stuff in, to give away to social help and refugees.
    >
    > we sorted out stuff she could take with her to the home, threw away some stuff but the biggest part is certainly useful for other people
    >
    > we were exhausted in the end but also had fun, running into more and more and more stacks of cloths and sheets and even some hats.
    >
    > there remains still some stuff like coats and shoes and toilet gear to sort out, and tomorrow my brother will go with my brother in law to install furniture in her new room.
    > then thursday will be the big day, more work in the morning to bring stuff there and arrange it away, and then in the afternoon taking her there and making her feel comfortable there hopefully.
    >
    > her boyfriend will come along then.
    >
    > and then we still have a whole house full of stuff of all kinds to sort out, but we will take our time to do so.
    >
    > found some neat vintage stuff for myself there as well, some of it had belonged to me to start with, way back, haha, as I am kind of vintage myself already.
    >
    > mom goes a bit up and down with all the turmoil but overall does ok.
    >
    > to be continued…
    >
    > ps have had no time to read all the comments and have no energy left to do so today, will save them for tomorrow.
    > M .

  455. swisslady says:

    Margaret, thanks for your kind response. Yes, my dad certainly was a jerk at times.
    Boy, you have been busy! It looks like your handling your mother’s move really well on a practical level. It must be difficult to look through everything and make a decision about every single object. That’s a huge job. It is definitely easier when someone is helping. It made me laugh at one point as my mother’s closets and drawers looked just the same: more piles of sweaters and shirts and towels and things wherever we looked. At least she was organized. Like you, we gave part of her stuff to charities and refugees. Well, good luck with the move on Thursday! It seems like your mom’s boyfriend’s presence will make things a bit easier on her (and maybe you as well).
    –Bernadette

  456. You’ve Gotta Love Millennials – Micah Tyler youtube. sent to me by a mr. bird. some of it just might be true. ha.

  457. Thanks Bernadette. it’s mostly just an old feeling. Everybody else gets something, and i am left with nothing. I kinda knew what you say is true, since GB tells me that from time to time, but it feels good to hear it from someone else too. nuf said, i guess.

    • swisslady says:

      I know, I can relate to the feeling; Gretchen is right; and I believe you have a lot more to say….keep going 🙂

  458. The Beatles – Ob La Di, Ob La Da The Black Waters youtube. happy song, pix of paul and one of lennonella. i have this memory that i never lose, of me at one of my friend’s house during teenage years, he had gotten the white album maybe we sat on his bed with it, listened to it. at the same time, there was an event on the Marina in Long Beach for the Sea Mariners, who were Girl Sea Scouts (like boy scouts only with a water influence). His house was right on the Marina. Maybe I already wrote this previously in the blog somewhere, so never mind. Girls I could not ever get close to, because i was stupid and had no idea about girls and no one to ask. My friend had gotten a Yugoslavian girl friend. But me, nothing much in that arena. ouch.

  459. Margaret says:

    > part of me says I should not engage in this craziness, but it is getting too much having to run into it again and again, I do need to react minimally.
    >
    > Patrick, you can always ‘prove’ your crazy point by relying on the same few crazy authors coming up with their delusional interpretations that have no ground for any proof.
    >
    > you even use your ‘hoax’ version of Brussels now as a proof for your other delusional ideas.
    >
    > that is like using one fairy tale as proof for another fairy tale.
    > there are lawsuits here, and there are real people still in hospitals recovering of horrible burns, and people having lost their legs etc.
    >
    > you are just making up or gathering more controversial ideas just as part of your crazy act out, for whatever neurotic need you harbor.
    >
    > as Gretchen pointed out repeatedly, and several others did, you refuse to look at factual proof that says you are wrong, and only gather ‘proof’ of the same small bunch of lunatics .
    >
    > it is sick, deep down you must know you are playing some sort of game here, to show off and get attention, while having no respect whatsoever for the very real victims and their families and friends.
    >
    > you must be aware of doing so, of jumping to farfetched crazy conclusions only basing yourself on theories always coming from the same corner, a corner that has little to no respect for accuracy and truth and common decency.
    >
    > you are not in search for truth at all, it is hard to believe you can delude yourself to that point.
    >
    > if you continue on this path you may well end up in a psychiatric ward.
    > delusion and paranoia..
    > M

  460. Margaret says:

    > how come the blog is suddenly so silent?
    > could use some distraction, smiley, have done all preparations for big day tomorrow of mom moving into nursing home and feel wired up.
    >
    > did have to do four calls to phone company with average waiting time listening to horrible repeating muzak, as they messed up the appointment every time, then three e-mails and three calls from their side and hurray, just got a message they will move the landline over for my mom tomorrow so she won’t be without her phone at all!
    >
    > was a lot of frustrating struggling with that company’s client services various employees but then the last one really did her best to make up and fix a technician in an extremely short timespan, for tomorrow afternoon, and they will even call me on my cellphone on forehand. hurray hurray and hallelujah!!
    >
    > my brother and brother in law are installing new tv and little table and drawer chests etc there today, small fridge, she can also use a watercooker on her room, and I bought a nice little rose plant with big pink roses on it to put on her window shelf or wherever she likes it.
    >
    > she is aware of it being tomorrow, but the idea of her boyfriend coming along for the move does seem to help her a lot.
    > more than us being there..
    >
    > it can be a bit irritating we do all the work and he gets the credits a lot of the time, but hey as long as she is ok we can cope..
    >
    > part of it is exciting as it seems to go unexpectedly well.
    >
    > we found out she would even be permitted to go out on her own as long as she lets them know when she leaves and comes back in.
    >
    > they also wear a little bracelet which signals when they would leave without warning.
    >
    > she should really be fine there, it depends on her as of course part is dependant on her making it work.
    >
    > i am glad I have been able to do so much to help like sorting aout all those cloths and linens yesterday and arranging appointments with phone company and doctor and social services etc.
    >
    > we have formed a good team and in these last days got help from family members we do not see that often but they are there when necessary.
    >
    > to be continued…
    >
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, sounds like you and your family have got all the wheels in motion and are making good things happen for your mom. I’m so glad for you guys. Sounds like it will be a smooth but exciting transition for her.

      I agree with you about the not looking at all the facts and seeing things merely in the light of an agenda. I sometimes wonder if one of the ‘hoax-getters’ wound up in a crowd of a mass shooting would they still deny what was happening. To quote from Soren Kierkegaard : “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

      Have a good day and tomorrow too.
      S

    • (((Daniel))) says:

      Good luck tomorrow M. I remember that move with my own mother. It was very difficult for all concerned, even though it was the right thing to do.

  461. David says:

    H Bernadette,

    “I am trying to relate to your feeling “I’m sorry” as it seems to resonate somehow with me but I can’t get a handle on it. If you wouldn’t mind, could you write more about it?”

    I only remember feeling this feeling once recently, so it’s a new one to me. I was feeling very bad about myself and started writing out an email to my therapist to try and bring the feeling up. It was a lot of very painful stuff, feeling that I’m ugly, unwanted, alone, a monster and a creep. I started crying writing all this out and then found myself saying “I’m so sorry” to my parents. And I don’t really have much to add except what I said to you, that I felt like a terrible disappointment to my parents and that was why they treated me badly, though it was mostly focused on my father. I’m sure that all kinds of people can relate to this, but it seems to be that a particularly British thing that we are endlessly apologising to each other a lot of the time in public about really inconsequential things, like very lightly bumping into someone on the street or something like that. On the surface it looks like we are just trying to be polite and get along with each other, but I believe that others too sense that there’s something really awkwardly neurotic about this endless apologising. I remember John Cleese on a talk show years ago making a joke about this, saying that the way an Englishman will ask for the salt at a dinner party is by saying “sorry” (Er…. excuse me…. would you just mind…. yes, right there…. sorry!!!) Anyway, for me I know there is a huge old feeling underneath it. I felt also that there was something vague in there about in to do with being adopted. That my parents would have been happier if they had got someone else. I don’t feel the feeling had anything to do with my female friend like you suggested, it didn’t come out of that. But I wouldn’t rule it out that that’s in the mix somewhere.

    “If I want to find out who the perpetrator was I have to face the fear of knowing. Acknowledging the fear that I had as a child of my father is making me stronger and will eventually lead to the fear of finding out who raped me”

    I’m sure that when you’re ready you will know. I remember when these feelings started coming up for me and I didn’t know, and I was just screaming out “no no no”, I was probing with my awareness all the time inside the feeling to try I find out what I was screaming about. Then I remember hitting this wall of fear; that I didn’t want to know what happened, that I wasn’t ready. Then I believe a year, 18 months later, I did know, but without any specifics. So it’s like you’ve said, there’s a peeling away of the veils, of the layers. One thing that has characterised my therapy process that has puzzled and frustrated me for years is that I don’t have moments of epiphany as such, or real insights after feelings like I’ve heard other people describe. I don’t know why that is. I need to have an insight about it 🙂 But I’m beginning to suspect that for me not knowing is a defense, and that it relates to the sexual abuse. That my mind protects me by not knowing and that a lot of my childhood has been painted with the same brush. Ignorance has become not bliss, but protection.

    “I’m also thinking that I am a different person today than I was yesterday, not sure what that means.”

    When I started having rape primals, as I suppose I can call them, I felt something similar, like I had been drunk and had been suddenly sobered up. Coming to this realisation of what had happened to me. It is still very much an unfolding process of coming to terms with this.and feeling my way through it. I did feel very different also in a way that I couldn’t put my finger on.

    Thanks for your comments, they’re very helpful.

  462. Leslie says:

    Hi Margaret,
    Thinking of you now – which is already your tomorrow as your Mom makes the big move. Hoping all goes well. Yes, she may miss her home and that makes sense – thinking of the movie “Inside Out” once again :).
    From how you have described her social nature I think/hope she will also appreciate having people so close by, meals available and activities that she may or may not attend each day.
    You and your brother have done well !!

    Hi Bernadette,
    We have good things in common like yoga and then bad things too like our dads… It is difficult to read at times but I do appreciate your posts and candour.
    L

    • swisslady says:

      Hi Margaret, I second Leslie’s message – good luck and well done, indeed!

      Hi Leslie, maybe one day, should we ever meet, you could tell me the story about your dad… and then we’ll do some yoga together and breathe the bad memories out of our systems 🙂
      –Bernadette

  463. swisslady says:

    David, after reading your text about your feeling “I’m sorry” I have more of an understanding. It’s not feeling sorry about a specific thing you’ve done; it’s feeling sorry for not being a better child. If you had been a better child, they would not have treated you this badly, they would have loved you. I understand now. Of course that’s not true; they treated you badly because of their own inability to love not because of who you were. But you already know that. Your statement that they might have been happier with a different child is gut wrenching. That must really hurt you deeply – it touched me deeply when I read it. A coworker who was adopted as a little girl, once told me that she doesn’t feel a basic connection with her parents. I feel a connection to my parents in spite of all the hurt and neglect that I experienced through them. But I don’t think in a minute that adoptive parents cannot build up a loving connection with their adopted child; if your parents couldn’t do it, it was their failure, not yours. I can relate to your feeling a little bit, even though I can’t feel it at this point. See, I am a girl, and I keep feeling that my dad hated me for being a girl, not the boy he wanted. So, no matter what I do to try please him, I can never change the fact that I’m a girl, I’m just ‘wrong’ and therefore I’m doomed forever, meaning that I don’t deserve his love – ever. I know this on an instinctual level, but I can’t really feel “I’m sorry for being a girl”. Indeed, it’s very difficult to get a handle on that feeling for me, but I know it’s in me. Oh yes, also it seems that if I could say and feel “I’m sorry for being a girl” there would be still some hope left that he will love me in the end, I think, after all I AM sorry. But to totally give up hope it would have to be the feeling “he doesn’t love me, no matter what” – just contemplating…

    “…for me not knowing is a defense, and that it relates to the sexual abuse. That my mind protects me by not knowing and that a lot of my childhood has been painted with the same brush. Ignorance has become not bliss, but protection.” —
    I totally agree with this statement. Not knowing is protection. When the sexual abuse happened we were not strong enough to know the truth; knowing the truth would have been catastrophic. Hence the shutting down of the memory. According to Janov, we get some sort of amnesia around the event, sometimes not remembering two or more years surrounding the time it happened. I do have a hard time remembering my years from age 3 to 6; the oral abuse happened when I was three, and the rape by my uncle when I was five. My memory is clearer when I started school at six and when we moved to a new house. Another aspect is added in my case: because I was scared of my father’s rage all throughout my childhood, but was forced to live with him day in and day out, my mind had to deny the fear. I couldn’t be consciously aware of being afraid all day long, it would have been far too debilitating, so I had to deny it. I knew on some level that I was afraid, but mostly I forgot about it and didn’t know to what extent I was afraid. I hope that makes sense. Just talking about different ways of self-protection.

    About “feeling different” – I still don’t have an answer. I will let myself be surprised…

    It’s funny what you’re saying about the Brits constantly apologizing. I can relate to it because it’s similar in Switzerland 🙂 I don’t know if it is just a cultural thing to make us appear friendly, or if there is a deeper reason behind it… it could be anything from inferiority complex to conceit…
    –Bernadette

  464. Margaret says:

    > thanks people, this is the morning of an important day and I have a splitting headache right now..
    >
    > Patrick,
    > I appreciate you did not lash out at me in reply to what I wrote.
    > it would have added extra tension to an already tense day.
    >
    > I hope so much she will be ok there.
    >
    > and I hope my brother will be ok, and well, I hope I will have some good times ahead as well..
    > it did help my two cats were on the corner of the bed this morning by my side, laying like two mirror images towards each other, and with their tails crossing.
    > took a picture of them but not sure how it came out.
    >
    > ok have to get up now and start getting ready..
    > thanks for the sweet support,
    > Margaret and Pluche and Plukkie

    • Patrick says:

      Cool. Thanks Margaret for whatever reason I had no urge to ‘lash out’ at you put it. Good luck to day to you and your mother.

    • David says:

      Hi Margaret, I hope it’s going well with your mum’s move today. Sounds like you have a good “team” to make for a smooth transition. I imagine it will be a real load off your mind. Good luck.

  465. Phil says:

    Hi Margaret,
    I hope everything goes well with your mother’s big move today, and that there’s little stress.
    Phil

  466. Margaret says:

    > I feel exhausted so will try to keep it brief, but it went quite well overall today.
    >
    > there were moments like when we walked from the car to the entrance there, that it suddenly struck her she would be moving in , despite us having talked about it loads of time even on this very day, her being tense seemed to interfere even more with her memory.
    >
    > so she started crying and it happened a few times while being in the room as well.
    >
    > but still I could feel she was in the process of adjusting, and we took all our time, first with her at her old house for a few hours, and then we arrived in the nursing home around half past one, and left there by seven.
    >
    > we put her cloths and stuff in the wardrobes, installed her watercooker etc. and her boyfriend took her for a walk in the garden, turns out they have a few chicken there, and to the cafetaria while me and my brother arranged the paperwork.
    >
    > then we kept making her feel at home in the room, and bit by bit she got used to it more, and then a lady who lives in the room acros the corridor came to say hello and she was sweet and funny and it immediately clicked between her and my mom.
    > she promised to show my mom around and to keep an eye on her and even to be her memory which made them both giggle.
    >
    > the staff there is also so very nice and helpful, it is amazing.
    > our mom’s room seemed to become one of the coziest there, many people do not have much extra furniture or things in their rooms, our moms is already cozy.
    >
    > I bought her a nice little rose bush and it fits perfectly on the large window shelf.
    > the nice white drawer chests my brother bought bring light into the room and provide plenty of extra storage while also giving space to put stuff on top, like a few plates and tea and sugar and cups and Belgian chocolates of course.
    >
    > one drawback is the phone did not get connected as there was a technical problem the guy will need to come back for, hopefully it will be sorted out tomorrow.
    >
    > so our mom went from refusing to lay down on the bed to try it out, as she did not want it to become her bed at first, to referring to it as ‘my bed’ to being eager to get under the soft covers and to put on her nightgown..
    >
    > it is a nice place full of friendly people and I have a good feeling about it.
    >
    > my brother was a bit upset about the fact she did not remember her house anymore already, despite asking about 80 times or so whether she had to stay there and if she had to live there in the new place now.
    > I told him it was sad indeed her memory is so bad, but on the other hand it will help her to adjust there more easily as she won’t be grieving very long about what she does not remember anyway..
    > she lieves very much in the present and can enjoy that, she seemed to enjoy being treated nicely by the new people and it made her feel safer and more open.
    >
    > i think she will settle in well and have some good times there.
    >
    > we will see
    >
    > probably go see her on saturday, her boyfriend will visit her oon satruday as well and go for a hike with her on sunday, I will go on monday morning with my halfsister and in the middle of the week or so I will go with my brother again to start sorting out al the stuff in the old house and visit her as well.
    >
    > she has four stuffed dolls there she liked, an owl, two cats and a squirrel, and pictures and we will keep making the room prettier still.
    > next year there will be a renovation and her room will even become almost twice as big, so it will really be a fine place, it is already pretty good now.
    >
    > her new neigbour lady, Niske as from Denise, will show her around, and it was funny my mom knew there were chickens in the garden in the far corner, and a piano in one of the rooms, which were two things Niske did not know yet.
    >
    > so I said they could show each other around..
    >
    > I already feel very good about how it went, I hope my brother can start to relax some more soon too, but he already saw some very positive things and was very pleased with the friendliness of everyone there.
    >
    > so well, a very busy day and emotional at times, but a good one, we took a good decision, together with her although she does not remember that, and it is on the right moment while she can still make the best of it and make friends there.
    >
    > a big sigh of relief!!!
    >
    > it was nice to leave her being cosily tucked in already, and surprise surprise, when my brother retruned there ten minutes later to put some cheese in her little refrigerator, she was already up and about again exploring and opening curtains and trying out the tv etc.
    > she’ll be fine I think, I am proud to say she tends to make the best of things.
    >
    > when my brother hugged her goodbye he also said he is proud of her.
    >
    > ok now I am going to relax ..
    > thanks for al the support to everyone, thanks for listening, thanks for replying, thanks for being there.
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Your journey, Margaret, brought a tear to my eye, you and your brother are so gentle and attentive to your mom. And also reminds me of the day my brother and I settled our mom in too.
      It all sounds like it went so well and hope she continues to love her new place and new friends. Take care.
      S

    • Jo says:

      Margaret, you’ve done everything you could possibly have done and more – to make the transition of your mum to her new place…she is certain to find new benefits very quickly…
      it’s been quite a journey for you.

  467. I’ve posted a new page! Gretch

  468. I posted another new page for comments as the first one did not work. You can find the link at the top of the page . G.

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