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oh jeez, no one talking. wonder if i cant get my nerve up and say something. uh oh still no opening, they are starting to talk about news and what-not. I dont want to be a part of that, all i want to do is pry open my mouth and talk about myself. now i have to wait until the first guy stops talking. he usually takes about half an hour. and then see that lady, who is bursting at the seams with what she wants to say. well, you dont have to talk to get something out of group, according to Donald Trump, in between his rants on Arabs. oh wait, this is not the start of group? ha!
i took some videos at the kid’s phd graduation. i messed up my good camera so i had to use my work blackberry. surprisingly good video. but what pisses me off is that i am so afraid of people, if they look at me, i stop filming. and i wanted to be a photographer and film-maker! ha. then we had our grad dinner at louisa’s and i could not get the blackberry out of my pocket, same reason, afraid of people, and too tired to push past it. it would have really been a good video too. shit. hate this shit.
actually, they dont even have to look at me, i can barely force myself to take the videos of people. cant remember if i have always been that way. i had a love affair with cameras for a long long time, my good uncle like to take pictures too, especially of me and my brother I found a bunch of old cameras in my grandmother’s hall drawers, probably in the 4th or 5th grade. I took pix with my instamatic at military school and with our 8mm Bell and Howell movie camera at that graduation. made a friend in the 7th grade who took my desire to make movies to a new level, that went on from junior high through high school and after. Then joined the navy to get away after my friend’s murder, and I was in the Navy photo school, and stationed in Rota photo unit. Drugs and alcohol and my personality kept me from getting anywhere with my dream. my love affair with cameras died during marriage. dropped out of film class when my wife’s dad died during that time. couldn’t afford to get film’s developed of kid pix, at some point when my wife lost her job and went back to school in 1992 or so. now i dont care much about it, nearing the end, so what the f is the use? Ha!
Otto, I’ve enjoyed photography for a long time, but decades ago I stopped doing it because of the cost of film and the cost of developing my film and prints in my own little darkroom, or because of the lack of creative control and the cost of having them developed elsewhere.
Going digital is less expensive and rekindled my passion. For me it’s fun working on my digital images with Lightroom and Photoshop (I initially had pirated copies). It’s like having a darkroom on my computer.
When I’m in the mood to take photos, I get a lot of joy in doing it, in working on them, and ultimately in just sharing them with friends and family. I realize that I take them to communicate an inspiration, a feeling, or a moment that I experience and want to share. Definitely I need an audience. Definitely I need the connection with people that photography brings me, the bringing out and revealing a side of me that they affirm in their responses to my images. Otherwise without and audience I feel very alone and I agree, what’s the use.
The past several years after the death of my wife I feel very alone and my passion for photography withered. I saw nothing but dull and grey, hurt and futility in a world that once inspired me. But the photography interest still flickers and flares up now and then, and in a rare these days inspired moment of joy and trust in life I’m rewarded in the capturing, editing, and sharing of images that compel me and that people like seeing.
Otto and Larry,
I’ve loved photography also since I was in my teens, when I got my first SLR and taught myself darkroom techniques. Then for similar reasons as you describe Larry, it fell away until the price of digital equipment came down enough and the quality went up enough that it became viable to get back into it. I borrowed a friend’s digital camera in exchange for adding him to the insurance on my car, so he could borrow it and get around when he needed to, and suddenly I was hooked again. Street photography and landscapes I’ve particularly enjoyed. I then started shooting weddings – basically the only way to make money from photography in your community – so this expensive hobby could start paying for itself. I also hoped that it might become a successful business. However, I found out pretty quickly how uber competitive it is, plus I’m not that great at marketing myself, so it stayed at the semi pro level.
Shooting weddings can be fun and rewarding, capturing the rage of emotions that often it takes a wedding (or funeral) for many people to express in public. It is also stressful as you can’t really make mistakes. You can’t say “Could you please cut the cake again”. It can also feel very lonely being in a loved up environment like that, where the bride and groom are the only ones I’ve previously talked to briefly and most other people there are familiar with each other and joining in the celebration. On several occasions I’ve felt it throw my single life into painful relief and I’ve come home to cry about how unloved and alone I feel.
I also feel my inspiration for photography wax and wane. At the moment I don’t take out my camera unless I have a wedding to shoot. Or else if I go on a camping trip to a beautiful part of the country, like the Lake District here in the UK which I particularly love. I have Lightroom for editing too. What is taken in camera is very often just the raw material that gets to be molded and crafted to create hopefully a compelling final image. I also appreciate that there are platforms like Facebook and Flickr etc for sharing photography with friends so that the way I express my creativity in this way can be seen and appreciated. And I can get others to see the world through my eyes in this unique way.
How nice to meet fellow lovers of photography on the blog, David and Otto. I never felt good enough about myself that I would take on the responsibility of a wedding shoot., and I felt way too shy and insecure to be able to put people at ease while photographing them in prearranged poses.
I have been asked and several times have agreed to photograph the children’s Christmas party at work. It was pretty scary to do at first, and a lot of work editing the images later…cropping, correcting exposure, sharpening…but it was rewarding. The parents loved the impromptu pictures of their kids, and the photos of them on Santa’s knee, including one or two of the kids crying their heads off. Even a lot of people at work who weren’t at the party loved seeing the pictures on the common shared folder on our work network.
I get a lot of positive feedback from photography, but I can’t pick up the camera in a quest for positive feedback. Instead I need to feel the desire and inspiration first and can only hope that I come up with something that excites me and that people will enjoy. Most of my stuff is not good enough to show to anyone.
actually, i worked at various photo finishing places after that film school ending, kept the dream going, until booze and stupidity made the dream impossible.
someone i still know interuppted my exercycling today to tell me of her need to purchase shorts to fulfill her need to go to hawaii with kid, who said he would pay for the trip. her need for a trip while i stay home to watch 2 dogs for 2 weeks, driving home at lunch, during rush hour traffic, so i can put them outside so their bladders dont burst or they dont pee all over their rooms, and then drive back, to work in rush hour traffic. of course, i had to tell her i have needed work shoes for 6 months now. what a bitch i am. what a tool. what a victim. i like to make myself miserable, so what a masochist i am too. lets seee if i can fill up thjis page with my misery.
> this morning thinking about my mom in her (nice) new room and a welcoming place, there even was a paper sign above her door when we arrived there yesterday, saying ‘welcome’, it did strike me she will sooon be 86 and we are bound to lose her in the coming years..
> that will be so hard I can’t get my thoughts around it well yet..
> it will leave such an empty gap it is hard to conceive at this point, so I better keep focusing on the present and on how to make the best of it.
> my brother asked my halfsister to come over to the house and help out, which is good, I will join them and it will be nice as well as a bit painful, it is nice the family gets closer again under these circumstances.
> hope I can get the phone company to go there and fix my mom’s phone so we and she can communicate again..
> just got my mom on the phone, it got connected this morning after a few insistant calls I made to the company, and it is so nice my mom sounded very cheerful really.
> she was still wondering a bit about her situation there, but definitely acknowledging she might start enjoying it, the company and the very friendly atmosphere, and she does like her room that has everything she needs, and mentioned specifically her stuffed animals smiley..
> it was great to hear her so awake and cheerful, I am still letting it sink in, not quite daring to belive it completely..
> it was funny when I mentioned the chickens to her, she put the phone aside and looked around her room for a few seconds, came back on and said no chickens here dear, haha, and we both laughed when I said no, not in your room, in the garden, the chickens…
> told my brother how good she sounded and he will call her later on today.
> oops, just got a call from the director of the home,
> explaining they had had a hard time with my mom this morning, as she was all set to leave, and she can be very stubborn.
> he was nice, promised to be patient with her, I told him they can call me at any moment of the day or night and I can talk sense into her if necessary.
> he had had the great idea to bring her to the piano and solve the problem in that very wise practical way.
> I told him we would come by tomorrow and her friend as well and he will take her along for a walk on sunday, and i will also come on monday and he sounded relieved as he worries about her safety when occasionally they might have no choice but to let her go out, as she is not in a secluded ward.
> it is a question of shared responsibility he said, and I would not blame him if my mom did go out and something happened at this point as she can be incredibly pigheaded.
> but he was nice and promised me thy would invest energy in supporting her to adjust, and warn me if there is a problem.
> he was glad to hear she had been so positive about her stay there to me on the phone, but added they had had to talk with her for an hour and a half that morning, as she forgets whatever has been said and agreed before…
> they are al so nice and understanding there, he sounded like a very sweet man and said he knows my mom for a while already as she came by regrlarly to play the piano.
> hope she adjusts and does not become to rebellious..
I hope your mother soon makes the adjustment. Lot’s of good company there and care, Nice that the director is so concerned. it sounds like a great place for her to be. Congratulations on making that move so successfully yesterday.
Margaret, I’m glad your mother’s transition to the nursing home went smoothly and you and she are happy and she is adjusting well to her new home. You deserve some nice moments, Margaret. You were very thoughtful and caring and worked hard to help your mother adjust. I also felt sad after reading your entry describing the events and experience of the day of the move.
As I explored why I felt sad, I began to cry. Your mother’s move reminded me of and I felt the transitions in my life that brought me closer to the end of what I know and that I want to keep…not have to lose.
I was reminded of and felt the transitions toward losing my parents, losing Noreen, the transition into older age, and soon the transition into work retirement and losing my last major anchor left in my life…my job that gives me a place to go, people to be with, meaning, purpose, and a feeling of self worth. I cried imagining that by the time I retire I will have lost everything that made life worthwhile and all I’m left with is me, alone.
I cried angry at this stupid therapy that doesn’t bring my wife back for me, nor does it bring my parents back and give me a chance to finally get from them love and attention that was so lacking in my growing up with them. I cried that this therapy can’t make me young again and in mid-career. As i cried my hurt and felt my emptiness, I felt angry that all this dumb therapy can do is take me to the point of being aware of the void and my need. All it does it take me to the edge of feeling the hurt of emptiness of loss and unmet need that is mine to know and bear forever. This therapy can’t fill that need. Nothing can bring my parents back and make them love me. It can’t bring my wife back. It can’t make me young and energetic again and return me to mid-life and mid-career. It can’t do anything about me being all alone with a void from losses that are forever. This therapy can’t change any of that for me. It’s all up to me to otherwise fill my life, with all of the void and hurt in me making me doubt myself and weakening my resolve.
I cried feeling how much I miss my wife and the love between us that grounded and centered me and gave me strength to meet life’s challenges. And then somehow the crying and feeling the strength and joy that our love gave each other helped me remember and feel that to her I was a worthwhile person. Remembering and feeling it helped to give me strength for now and the challenges ahead for me as I make my life anew, alone and afraid.
> you must also have read there are still moments that don’t go so smoothly, like when she was all set to leave this morning seemingly.
> but your last sentence illustrates somehow something very worthwhile all of this contains, which is we can always reconnect with new nice people.
> the generous friendliness of everyone working there we met so far, is heartwarming, and immensely valuable as it enables frightened distressed people to start trusting and feel safe by being taken care of and reassured by the people they depend on.
> I am sure in plenty of places it is not that good at all, but so far this home stands for all the good things warm human contact can bring, even from complete strangers, and how in some situations this can be life saving in many ways.
> simple niceness means so much to someone who is scared and we are so lucky to have found a place where it seems a natural state of behavior.
> also for us, not only for our mom, it makes a world of difference.
> the director could have been cross and could have made a problem about our mom’s behaviour, but no he was kind and reassuring, it is all so unexpectedly warm and caring it makes me feel really touched and almost teary.
> like when i called my mom after her lunch, her former cleaning lady was there visiting her, she is also such a warm person, and really likes my momm, and went to visit her during her own lunch break and promised to do so regularly.
> sorry Larry if I ended a bit abruptly but I got two phonecalls at the same time while writing the reply.
> one was from my mom’s doctor whom the home must have contacted this morning when she was rebellious and wanted to leave.
> I listened to his voice mail and was unpleasantly surprised at hearing he planned to go there and restart the medication, as in his words ‘they like people under their care to be calm’.
> I think he meant that in general, as I just caught him on his cellphone while he was already standing with the nurse of the home, and told him the director had had a much better approach than medication by simply bringing her to the piano.
> I told him my mom is overall ok, with just occasional moments of difficulty in adjusting, and luckily I heard the nurse confirm to the doctor there had been no problem at all i the afternoon.
> they gave her an electronic bracelet which sets of a warning sign if she goes out to the street, and a step counter or something like that, maybe to know more or less how far she is??
> he had to hang up by then, but I will definitely keep an eye on things so he does not prescribe the medication again unnecessarily.
> I feel disappointed he was so ready to do so, boy, he has his priorities wrong..
> well, so far so good, though this was a close cal from him getting our mom drugged again just for commodity sake.
> maybe he expected the home would make problems or lock her up or something, but they did not sound as if they were planning anything like that at all.
> this does take a lot of energy and I am so glad we can share this as it must be horrible to have to deal with all the stuff witout support.
> had to recontact the phone company once more as the closure of the internet and digital tv was not in order yet.
> got interrupted once more, this time by the doorbell, again one of the neighors tthat keep going out without their keys, very irritating.
> called mom but that was a mistake, she was all worked up and too tired to understand or remember any explanation or information I gave her, so I had to tell her she was too tired and me too to continue the conversation and we’d come by tomorrow.
> I can imagine now how a momentary relaxing shortterm med might be useful, as she tends to get belligerant when she gets into this kind of mood.
> she was all confused about where she was and where she would go and what was her stuff and does not seem to remember all of this was actually her own decision, she does believe it but instantly forgets and then gets all worked up again.
> so it is better to leave her right now, hope noone else calls as she seems incapable now of processing anything and it works the wrong way trying to talk to her.
> ok, a phonecall from my brother just came that got interrupted by my doorbell, and then he got interrupted by another call, and will call me right back….
> this is a bit too hectic for my taste, but well, will have to cope with it all.
“…it seems that if I could say and feel “I’m sorry for being a girl” there would be still some hope left that he will love me in the end….. But to totally give up hope it would have to be the feeling “he doesn’t love me, no matter what”
It’s really sad that your dad couldn’t accept you for who you are. As I’m sure you know, there are layers to this and there isn’t one all encompassing primal feeling that covers it all. “I’m sorry” may well be a big feeling for you that is part of it. It might be one of the “upper” layers. For me, in my experience, hopelessness is at the bottom insofar as it is the most devastating primal feeling I’ve ever felt. “Please love me” is a very intense feeling of grief, but feeling that a parent doesn’t love you no matter what – the hopelessness of that feels like complete despair. That hopelessness is something I only get to when I feel like I’m really at the end of my rope. The payoff though in feeling it is that the sense of relief afterwards is correspondingly huge.
“According to Janov, we get some sort of amnesia around the event, sometimes not remembering two or more years surrounding the time it happened. I do have a hard time remembering my years from age 3 to 6”
I have pockets of amnesia as well. I remember the night before my first day at school, crying that I didn’t want to go, but nothing about what actually happened when I got there or anything really in my first year. My second year in school I remember being teased with the book that had the image I’ve connected with sexual abuse, but not much else. I relate to what you write about your father’s anger and as well and feeling like you were walking on egg shells all the time. Most of the time my father’s anger didn’t come out in rages, though it sometimes did. It was more like the threat of anger was overhanging everything most of the time, so I didn’t know when it might come, so it was best to just stay away from him as much as possible. It felt very controlling and frightening.
David, I’m not sure whether my feeling “I’m sorry” is in the upper or lower level of pain for me; either could be true. I’m not feeling it at this time, so I will let it surprise me when it surfaces. I seem to be focused on my dad, but when I lie down, I have feelings about my mother. My need for dad, and his rejection / disdain for me are so painful that I can only take so much. Then I bounce back to mom and tell her “daddy doesn’t love me.” And then comes the need for my mother, which I can’t allow myself to have. I cried a bit this afternoon after remembering seeing my mother hugging and comforting my younger brothers and sister, and I couldn’t go to her for the same comfort. Something stopped me then, and as annoying as it seems at the moment, something is stopping me now from feeling it. I suspect the feelings you described (“please love me” and hopelessness) are the very same that I need to feel and I’m reluctant to go there because of the tremendous pain awaiting me. I might as well have denied and repressed forever the need for mom “please love me” because a) I know she can’t love me, and b) I don’t trust her. Having a need like that for my dad is hopeless to begin with! I know in order to heal, I must allow myself to feel the need for both. I’m sure the payoff is huge, as you say… But I can feel the resistance….! I am my worst enemy.
Thinking about amnesia caused by trauma: I have so many traumatic incidents in my young life, I am surprised that I can remember anything, or that I survived, for that matter. I do have some lovely memories as a toddler, crawling on the garden patio, watching colonies of ants, walking through tall grass, looking at flowers, small toys I had, the glittering Christmas tree; but also a horrible memory of being stuck in a play pen. My big horror started when I was 3, and the most traumatic time was between 3 and 6; I only remember traumas in that time period, and that’s only by means of recovering memory through therapy; most of it is still in a fog. Like it was for you, the threat of anger was in the air at all times, that is, when my father was home. It was so evident, the minute he walked into the house, the children would become quiet and withdrawn. But I do have some wonderful memories after the age of 6, of playing with my sister inside and outside the house, mostly when our father was at work. That’s when we were able to relax. Then we had the long summers, when we played outside with the neighbors’ kids, in the meadows, on the street, in the forest and down by the brook. I love thinking back to that time; we were allowed to ‘go wild’, build huts and dams and climb trees and make a fire and roast sausages… it was a great place to grow up. The tragic thing though is that I took it for granted that dad had such control over us. It was normal… because I didn’t know any better.
> my brother and I agreed that if there would be more problems with my mom getting so worked up and unreasonable it might be useful at some point after all if they’d decide to give her some medication for a while.
> past a certain point there is no way to talk with her in any constructive way, the only option then is to take a time out like we did this late afternoon, telling her simply the conversation had not much use at that point as we were all tired, so we could all need some rest and would come by tomorrow.
> it is hard to see and hear her in that state, but there is no option to let her go back home as she is simply not fit enough for that anymore.
> hopefully the moments where she enjoys the place will become more and more often and stable, as she really went to the best place ever, full of nice and patient and very capable people.
> it does help me and my brother agree on things, and don’t blow it all up out of proportion but can still be feeling good about this necessary step having been made in a nice way.
> what happens next is partly out of our control, although we will of course do everything to help her to adjust.
> I hope she can do so soon or she risks ending up in the protected ward.
> there was no mentioning of it so far, they want to do a lot of effort to help her to settle in.
> so it is important me and my brother feel we did the right thing, and in a very nice way.
> hopefully a good night’s sleep does help, and at least we know she is very very well surrounded there.
Margaret, it is very upsetting to read about what’s happening with your mother. It so much reminds me of what happened to mine. My mother liked it at the care home and people were very warm and caring. But she was confused at times and wanted to go home. She got angry and loud at some point refused to do certain things. I can imagine that she was frustrated for not having control over her body after the stroke and then being confined to a wheelchair and ‘locked up’ in a home where she didn’t want to be. She was not literally locked up, of course, although very limited as she couldn’t control her wheelchair on her own. They gave her more medication to subdue her. When I visited, it appeared like she was numb, she hardly recognized me and was emotionally flat – in a medication fog, as I call it. The meds caused her to have hallucinations, and she talked weird stuff all the time. I hated seeing her that way. And I am sad that I couldn’t do more for her. I’m glad you stepped in to prevent more medications for your mother!
> thanks for your feedback Bernadette.
> it is useful, makes me more aware of preferring a rebellious mother who is occasionally unreasonable than a dopy one.
> we can only count on the staff’s patience, hope they give her some fair chances, as she can really be strong minded and pig headed like a mule to make a crooked comparison.
> and she can have a big mouth on some occasions while otherwise she can be nice and gentle..
> glad I stepped in as well, at least they know we are not keen on meds if they can be avoided.
If I was your mother and my memory was failing, I can imagine how stressed out I would feel from finding myself in a strange place with strange people, not remembering how I got there and not being free to return to my normal life and home. It will be an anxiety ridden time for me when I am in your mother’s place.
Margaret, your mother sounds a bit like mine – stubborn, tough old cookie 🙂 I hope with you that they will treat her with patience and allow some adjusting time before they insist on medicating her, that of course only if it is necessary. I agree with Larry, it must be so frightening for her, especially as she has a hard time remembering. We made sure that each day, one of us children visited our mom. And it was always helpful to her when we all visited for hours on the weekends; it made her feel safer when she was surrounded by her family. To be fair to my sisters and brothers, they did most of the transition and visitations; I was only there for a few weeks when she first got sick and stayed at the hospital, then again when she was moved to the care home, but after a few weeks I had to return to work in the U.S. It was very painful to leave her. At least you are there and can keep an eye on your mom. Good luck, Margaret.
Larry, I hear you and empathize with the loneliness you feel and the abandonment and fear; your wish and desire to make a new life. Your frustration with the therapy’s limitations; no matter how much we feel and connect to past pains, it cannot give us back what we lost, and it will not build up our life. It is so lovely that you can gain strength from remembering the love you and your wife had for each other.
Don’t get me wrong Bernadette. I’m not truly frustrated with the therapy’s so called limitations. Nothing can bring back for us what is forever lost, and the beauty of this therapy it doesn’t pretend to. It just takes us to the edge of the raw truth for us to deal with in a healing way by facing it, which is a tremendous, priceless, almost miraculous achievement. The therapy gives us so very much, but for a second or two in transition to the edge of feeling that eternal void, suddenly and briefly it feels like the therapy doesn’t do nearly enough. My momentary displaced anger toward the therapy is my final distraction as I let go and plunge into the feeling abyss of what I never got and never will, or what I lost and will never get back. I’m aware as I’m feeling it that my feeling of anger is my final defense before sinking into the emptiness.
Larry, I understand and realize that your ‘frustration’ with therapy is part of the old feeling and part of the defense against the final abyss. And I’m also aware that you know this and can let yourself feel through it to the very end, or ‘eternal void’ as you call it. I am in awe of your insights and clarity of your feelings and defenses. I never meant to assume that therapy would bring back what we have lost, nor do I expect that it will build up our lives – it’s just an indication of my own unrealistic childish hopes, which are part of my old feelings, and I’m aware of it. Contrary to you, I have not been able to go into the abyss/eternal void – maybe I have briefly and forgot about it since – I’m still holding out for something, what I don’t know. Unrealistic hope, I’m sure. Your text is beautifully written!
I don’t think I’ve quite made it to the “abyss” either. I did some crying today in my car on the way home from work while listening to music. Not a good place to go real deep but I was thinking about how I still have somewhat of a hard shell that needs to melt away. It’s what I created to protect myself from my mother, as she hurt me so badly. It keeps me from memories and stops me from opening up to people in the way that I could. No doubt it’s part of my defenses too, and helps me to function. It consists of a lot of anger that I still need to get to. I get to anger but there always seems to be more.
Phil, yes, that seems an accurate description of the process; it’s very similar for me. I also noticed that the closer I get to the abyss, the stronger my defenses are. I cried a little bit this afternoon, remembering again seeing my mother hugging my younger siblings for comfort, but I couldn’t go to her and get the same comfort. I know there is something much more painful and deeper behind that…. I can’t feel it at this point. Maybe it is the total realization that I am on my own now. Or maybe I’m defending against ‘needing her’ or ‘needing comfort’ because I already know I won’t get what I need. I end up with a pressure headache and then have to redirect my thoughts in order to keep functioning. It’s so annoying because I really want to get through this last defense and heal. The mind-fuck (excuse the expression) is that we got hurt by our mothers and thus want to avoid her, but in order to get better, we have to allow ourselves to need her! Argh! Also, in my experience, anger can also serve as a defense. Only if the anger is expressed to the old event/person who hurt me in the past, it is a real feeling and brings relief. Always happy to hear your comments, Phil.
Thanks for your responses Bernadette. What you write makes me think and touches my feelings.
Hope is hard to give up. It takes a while to even realize we’re hanging on to something that isn’t there,..never was. At the retreat last summer, I felt a little reaction to something said in group, and decided to speak up and mention it. Barry B. and the therapists had me elaborate, and soon they helped me see that a little bond I thought I had with my parents was not at all. That insight that they helped me to see has been percolating and deepening and widening all year since then, releasing rivulets of pain that’s been gathering into a bigger and bigger stream. It’s amazing to me what I didn’t and couldn’t see a year ago but am able to open to more and more now. It makes me wonder about what else can’t I let myself see.
I wonder why I don’t let myself get excited about going to the retreat. Maybe it’s because it’s not easy for me to enjoy myself when I’m there, though I do always enjoy it overall. Maybe it’s because I’m afraid of opening up, though it’s always good for me. Maybe it’s because my parents would come to visit me at my aunt and uncles or take me to the farm for a visit, but over 2 1/2 years on all those visits except the last when I was 4 didn’t take me home to stay and so I could no longer let myself get excited about seeing them. Maybe it’s because when I finally did go home to stay, I felt warmer and closer to my aunt and uncle and cousins than I did to my real Mom and Dad, and it hurt too much to know that, so I had to put walls between me and parental figures. Maybe it’s because there was no longer a bond with my parents, and I didn’t want to know that so I killed my need to bond with people. Maybe being at the retreat impinges on my awareness how I still cut myself off from people, even though I’ve made great strides in connecting. It feels safer to be at home alone, and in control. I guess the reason I don’t get excited about going to the retreat is because they are a lot of work for me and have me always on edge.
Larry, i can’t afford to retire. I tell everyone at work that asks me when i am going to retire. I tell them I have retired when they find me laying in the hall, not sure if heads up or down. My nephew said do it ass-up, to show you are sticking your ass to the man. The last guy i know who retired died a few weeks later, but they said he had not been to the doctor for years. A pharmacist friend of mine who runs 5 miles a day, he still volunteers and comes into work some hours a week. He is a personable funny guy. he is starting to show the wear and tear, but he seems happy enough. I dont think he ever married. He gets to hang around pleasant Chinese lady pharmacists in the pharmacy, and co-workers from his long work life stop to chat with him in the cafeteria. He is the one who said i should leave the sick cat out for the coyotes to eat. Other co-workers of mine, we have not heard from them since they left years ago. Presumably they are happy not having to work. If i did have the money to retire, I might sit around and smoke pot all day, or i might find all kinds of interesting stuff to do. I am not sure what the hell i am talking about, so that’s it.
That’s what I’m worried about, Otto. I’d sit around and smoke pot all day by myself, and as a result would go downhill pretty fast. Seriously though I hope I do my best to avoid that scenario, but it will be a challenge trying to put a life together all over again. Some people are good at it. Not me. I guess it feels overwhelming like a little kid might feel on his own with not enough of the love and security and support that we all need to grow up confident and strong.
Margaret, what kind of medication are you talking about?
I can’t for the life of me be kind to my wife. She just got back from her meeting, and asks me what did i cook. I dont like telling her anything about what i eat, because she has made me feel bad about it many many times. Now I just want to write here, before i go to bed and get my 5 hours of sleep before my 6th workday. i dont know what more to say on that. Lack of sleep makes me more of an asshole than i should be. And she dont give me nothing. The washer is always full of her clothes, all week long, so now i have no underwear for tomorrow,etc etc etc. I read an Ann Landers or Dear Abby column about some lady complaining about her husband leaving his socks on the floor. Abby or Ann reminded her that when he was dead, she would miss seeing his socks on the floor. if i outlive her, or divorce her, i guess i would miss seeing her clothes in the washer, her messy kitchen where she cooks the most disgustingly smelly food, the fridge where she takes up every shelf so i dont have room, the many useless nicnacs and herbs and pills she has laying around the house that have bled my wallet dry, or knowing that everytime she gets in the car with me, there will be an argument or some new need of hers brought to light.. HA! ce la vie. But the man usually goes first in these situations. HA! HA! HA! Well, it is good for me to say shit about her, maybe i would miss her. The death of our 3 pets in one year has left me kind of detached, not to mention the anti-depressant also does that. I DO feel bad for her. I kind of feel bad for my phd kid, who is taking her to Ohio for a while to aid in transitioning him. He will bear the brunt for a while of her bad-roommate style of life.
phd kid is anxious about moving to chicago/ohio, finding a place to live, taking his monster dog with him since the dog is 10 nearing end of life. the monster dog will be alone again all day after my wife comes home, like when the kid was up north at college with the dog, and that dog will be very lonely since she is currently at our house, and my wife is home all day, so the dog is with her all day. he has to rent a car for my wife for the few weeks he is in chicago and she is in ohio. and do they move her tempurpedic to ohio, since she has had very little back pain since we got it, and how to get it back here when she comes back here from 2000 miles away. real estate guy is pressuring the kid about rental houses in ohio going fast. money an issue till first paycheck. kid is still trying to finish up phd work, even though he graduated, his professor is being demanding about some papers he did not finish, but she is going on vacation so she can give him feedback to finish. i look at google maps at where he could be renting in ohio, looks too suburban, not bustling like West L.A. where i work every day. even the suburbs near west la. are bustling. sometimes too bustling i guess. i would not mind taking a crack at living in some wild place like idaho for a bit. or not. well i know nothing about ohio, maybe it is the best darned interesting and satisfying state on the planet.. i can help him troubleshoot all this stuff a little, i am not the primal dad i had hoped to be, to comfort him. etc. my dog and z’s cat will be lonely all day long without z here all day long, and probably howl and/or act out. i just ate half a loaf of bread, i guess i am anxious too. never gets easier. and yet some people will envy me my life, and call these “luxury” problems. HA! Lot of sadness and pain, is all i can see. ok go sleep make money tomorrow, that never seems to get me out of debt anyways. HA! HA! HA! fuck! go cry tomorrow if BB at PI. cant cry here at home, maybe once Z is gone.
> she was on a low dose of Seroquel, an antipsychotic, since last summer, but it got diminished gradually to nothing at all since last week…
> my brother came and picked me up and we went to the care home
> just when we arrived on the parking lot I got a call on my cellphone from one of the caretakers on my mom’s section, telling me they had tried it all but could not find a way to keep my mom indoors as she was set on leaving, and they asked me for assistance, and I could tell them we were right there about to come up…
> they were so relieved when they saw us come in with a box of pastry and immediately able to distract our mom, and give them an opportunity to ‘escape’.
> we had a bit of work with her freshing up her memory and talking with her, but in the end she sat down enjoying the pastry, and I got the idea of inviting the other old lady from the other side of the corridor and she, Niske, was delighted to join us for some pastry and company.
> she Niske said it was nice and warm in our mom’s room, and cold in hers, so we sat her by the radiator and my brother went into her room to turn hers on.
> we turned the football on softly, Ireland Belgium, and soon everyone sat comfortably eating and chatting and commenting, so I whispered to my brother if he wanted he could go out and I would entertain the old ladies.
> he did go to do some stuff in the house, and I ‘watched’ the first part of the game with the ladies, one 86 and the other 85 and every time they started commenting I turned the volume down and them back up a bit when they had gone over mostly the same stuff once more.
> it was cosy, Niske on an easy chair, my mom on the bed, asking me to undo her shoe laces so she could take her shoes off and sit more comfortably, and me on the other side of the bed with the thing to turn the volume up and down when necessary.
> the half way break of the game arrived, and I asked Niske if she knew the way to the cafetaria, which she did, so I asked if they felt like going there for a treat, and yes, of course, haha!
> it worked out very well, we got our drinks, they also have ice cream and beer there, and had a nice talk.
> Niske had been a stenotypist and said when she heard complicated words on tv she still stenotypes them on her leg.
> she promised to invite and take my mom along for the gym on weekday mornings, and I told her my mom could teach her some piano which she always dreamed of.
> my brother just came back when we were about to go up as their dinners would be served..
> mom is still confused about it being a hospital and where she lives but a few time she could take it in she had decided to come there to live and had even told us to give the landlord notice she wanted to stop the rent of the house.
> other moments it was mostly confusion but some small steps were made in the right direction.
> we then found out she does get half a pill again from her former medication, and talked about it with the nurse, and she explained us the former night our mom had been wandering around and into the other rooms, spooking other residents.
> so well, I can live with the idea she gets half a pill in the evening at this point, which will make her sleep easily and will have worn off in the morning.
> it might help her to adjust without getting too worked up and upset, as it would be much worse if they would have to move her to a protected section.
> they are very nice there and capable, and hey, the food is fine, I ate the dessert mom had left at her lunch, and someone stored it in her fridge, and it was delicious, a big portion of freshly cooked rice pudding with fresh fruit on top, mmmm.
> tomorrow her boyfriend will come to get her for a hike, and maybe it is good he will also be the one bringing her back there, to get her system to accept it really is her home now, bit by bit..
> feel tired, but overall it was a nice afternoon, although we did arrive just barely in time..
Incidentally the score in the game was Belgium 3 Ireland 0. I thought people might want to know lol
So!!! why are you laughing out loud?????
Margaret, your mom’s first days reminds me of my mom’s too. She rummaged through other residences draws the first night. They started her on Geodon to calm her and it helped a lot. Everything was so new to her. It does take time for adjustment. It sounds like your family is doing all that is necessary to make this an easy and comfortable transition for your mom. My mom had more visits from my brother and his family there at her new home than before living at home. I think it will give you some peace of mind to know that she is being looked after, eating well, and there is someone there to help her with things.
> thanks Sylvia,
> it does help me a little to hear it is not that unusual for new residents to behave ‘badly’..
> I am so scared now she will keep being so difficult in wanting to leave and being unreasonable that they would have no option but to consider putting her on what they call a protected ward.
> there was no mentioning of it yet but I am afraid.
> i know they would in such case still bring her to the cafetaria and piano and she could still go out with companion like us or her boyfriend to go on a hike, but it would feel completely differently and she would be among patients in a poorer state of mind, and well, there would have to be room there as well.
> she asked us to stop the rent of her house, we gave notice so the options are not many, she will have to adjust..
> today I hold my breath how she will react after he hike with her friend, when he takes her back there and when he will leave, always the hard moments.
> my brother is worried too, already slept bad the night before today’s.
> hope the medication does help …
> and yes, smiley, Belgium won the game, small country but mmm, we beat America two years ago in the World series too if I remember it well..
> not that it matters, smiley..
People may be sick and tired of Orlando etc but I found this very interesting in terms of maybe finding out how these things are done. To say it is a ‘fake’ of course is very hard for people to accept and also does not explain much of anything If anyone is interested I would suggest (if you do not want to watch it all) go to the 8:00 minute mark and watch for about 2:30 minutes
And yes it DOES involve one of the owners of the club as I suggested it would and as always in these ‘events’ there is a DRILL involved. The event itself is really a DRILL ‘gone live’. So it’s a matter of going from make believe to making us believe it. And I did notice in the pictures of people being carried along the street they seemed to be carried TOWARDS the club which is odd indeed but maybe not if they were actually coming from this other building and being carried towards the club where the ‘publicity’ was. This to me is spooky and fascinating in a dark way. But I prefer it to the endless repeating nonsense on CNN etc etc
Patrick: Why are you so obscessed with all the so called “fakery” going on in the world???? There is something Primally deeper to all this, and it is worth just pausing for a few minutes and thinking about it. Afterall it is a Primal blog.
I for one am begining to see that the biggest hoax is you. AND, seemingly, you are convincing no-one, but I did listen to the first few minutes of the video. The guy did say he was not denying something happened … interesting!!!
What all this does is gives credability to “climate change” deniers.
Concerning the video, what’s left out is all the supporting evidence that has been shown and of the sincere reactions of the survivors. When one adopts the attitude that they aren’t going to believe and doubt how can they see the trueness of what’s happening. It’s like a parent with arms crossed who doesn’t believe you before you can tell your story of what happened.
And I would be careful of what seems like fun and games to see things as a hoax. At one point that can become a habit and all you will see are ‘hoaxes’, nothing will be real on the media. When there is a natural disaster, tornado, flood, fire, etc. the ‘hoaxsters’ won’t believe that either. See no evil, hear no evil. A great protection from all the bad in the world–like it never happened. A very nice cocoon they’ve built.
Sylvia – ‘sincere’ well that is sort of the point, maybe yes and maybe no but if ‘no’ to put on a show like that is not cool…………….
> I find it hard to believe you can’t think of a number of perfectly normal reasons why they would carry some of the victims temporarily back inside for more shelter after the shooter got neutralized.
> after all it is impossible to get more than fifty ambulances there on a very short term, so it seems only natural they would take part of the victims back inside, if only to keep them from being filmed by sensation greedy media or disaster tourists..
> do possibilities like that really not cross your mind?
Margaret – I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say. Never mind it’s not really important but there is nothing being said about taking people inside or anything like that. Any number of possibilities cross my mind………………….but so far I see all the evidence of a big fat hoax. Now if people want to ‘anal-ise’ that and draw similarities to childhood type situation go right ahead I suppose, though I don’t see really what that has got to do with it. As I said already I can equally draw similarities in people who ‘believe’ in this as real……………….so what? Basically means nothing…………….and to me shows the limitations of always trying to deal with things in that way…………
The issue here is not whether it is true or false, BUT your obsession needing to promote it as false.
My take here is that you have an agenda, that sadly, I feel you are not able to recognize. I suspect because you see EVERYTHING from your head (intellect) and little or nothing from any feeling.
Your agenda I feel is that eventually you hope to show that Primal Therapy is the ultimate hoax.
You are such a tool! So I might say your AGENDA in your ‘fake’ caps lock style of ‘abolishing money’ is some………………….oh forget it you are such a tool (prick). And yet again it goes to your freaking ‘belief system’ is under attack you FEEL. How’s that for rubbish……………………..you are rubbish man. You told me if you saw me on the street you would cross to the other side and keep on walking. So keep on walking tool!. You do not mean me well so LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE. How’s that for caps locking you tool. Did I forget to mention you were a TOOL. Such a dick and get back to what you know what to do…………………
Correction: that should have said ‘suck a dick’……………
So!!!!!!! What’s your FEELING?????
We all know what you “think” of me, in-spire of your 1001 times you’ve mentioned it.
Now’s the time to tell us how you feel about me not leaving you alone. You’re too much fun to leave alone/ 🙂 🙂 .:O .
> hardly dared to do so but not doing so was equally hard, so I ended up giving my mom a call just now, after she would certainly have done her hike with the boyfriend.
> she had just received her dinnner, and at first did not even remember going on a hike, but then sort of remembered.
> it was good to hear she seems to be accepting again a tiny bit more this is her new home and she must make the best of it.
> i could talk with her in a quiet and reasonable way, she brought up the subject of her old house, but agreed she preferred to stop the rent as otherwise she would have to keep paying for two places. when she asked whether she could go there with us to sort out some stuff, I said yes, but better not right away as it might be too emotional at this point. she could see my point fairly easily, and I told her at a later point we would definitely give her the possibility to say which things she wanted to keep.
> she sounded a bit more resigned, and also acknowledged it was not very easy, but overall sounded quite real, and she also promised to try out joining the gym there, I could make her laugh about that.
> she said she would rather eat lunch together with the other residents, which sounds like a very positive sign, so I promised her I’d tell the staff so tomorrow morning when I visit her.
> called my brother and he told me he had called her earlier on today and then she wanted to leave..
> did my best to tell him she sounded more or less ok now, and seems to be making steps in the right direction, and told him as well many people seem to have to go through similar problems upon arrival.
> told him I had felt afraid they would have to put her in a protected ward if she would keep making a lot of trouble, but that that seemed to be becoming less likely, after all she had not yet run away once so far.
> he said he had still not stopped the rent of the house, as he feared we would have to take her back home with more care there, but I said for me it seems like the very last option to consider as it would bring us
> back to our starting point more or less, while we have made good progress already, and he agreed on that..
> I feel concerned about him, asked him if he was down, but he said he sounded a bit like that because he had been napping probably.
> so well, I feel a bit reassured now seeing my mom seems to be adjusting bit by bit, while she will certainly have more moments of distress to come.
> glad I can go there tomorrow morning with my half sister.
> it will be my sister’s birthday then, and mine the day after..
> my brother brought some sheet music yesterday to mom’s room, a good thing as that is the kind of stuff which makes her feel somewhat at home.
> managed to do some studying nevertheless, in between things, have to do short bits but it also does change my mind of worrying.
> somehow it also feels good to still be able to connect with mom today, she did appreciate my call and I could tell her it was my pleasure..
> the medication seems to be helping her to take the edge off the confusion and distress and to see things more clearly .
> wish I had someone here to hold me from time to time..
Margaret: Reading all these posts of yours about your mother put me into what I wouild feel like, if I were in her position … being closer to her age. If anything was to happen to my Jimbo and then someone was to try and put me in a retirement home; the feeling that I know I would get is:- “I’m here to die”
Not a good feeling for me. The other aspect would be if I was more confused than I already am … would compound matters for me greatly. To be told that I am confused would really piss me off … I suspect none of us like that.
I’d liked to think that my death would be swift and painless in my own environment. I am saying all this because in a strange way I can identify with her clearly. I am not suggesting that you don’t … but merely saying this in the context, I feel it.
Your last line “wish I had someone here to hold me from time to time..”, makes a great deal of sence.
You deserve being held, Margaret.
It is just a few days that your mother has been there. Hopefully she is making the adjustment.
Also, the people there sound competent to deal with these things, together with the support from you and your brother, she should settle in.
> I understand you talk about your feelings, but we did not ‘put’ her there. she decided and we encouraged her, specially the second time after she had refused a first opportunity to what we had not opposed at all.
> she had regretted her refusal right after doing so and made us call back but the first room had already been given away.
> for the second one we did go there with her and had indeed told her we thought it would be a good idea to take it, she did like it when she saw it and the social worker specifically asked her personally whether she wanted to come and live there, and we just waited silently to let her answer and she said ‘yes, I think I could get used to living here, it looks very nice’.
> it was not a spur of the moment decision either, it has been 8 months of talking about it and wanting to do what would be best for her in order for her to be happy and safe.
> I did freshen up her memory about that today as she also tends to speak in terms of being ‘put’ there, and then she did remember it more or less.
> my mom is not the kind of person anyway you could force to do something against her will to begin with.
> it is mostly her confusion now and fear of not being accepted or not fitting in that make her insecure.
> and well, if someone is confused, or forgets, sometimes there is no way around telling the person they forgot and to help them to remember.
> it does help my mom when we do and we always do it in a very gentle way.
> all situations vary, for instance if I could still see well it might have been easier for me to drive by her house daily to help her to stay there longer, but under the circumstances this is really a good option as i feel sure she will adjust and start liking the company and activities.
> she was getting very lonely and lost at home, and brought the subject up a number of times herself that she might want to move there.
> it is a big adjustment of course, and a loss in many ways, but there are a lot of good things in return, on the very first day she already made a nice friend, so as Phil says this is only three days, she will adjust and have some nice years ahead which we also will enjoy with her.
> if she would have accepted more help at home she could have stayed there for many more years, we told her repeatedly, but she was too stubborn to accept more help, and the situation really started deteriorating fast there.
> so it is a good thing, we keep count of her and her feelings, always did, but it is also true we have a better take on reality.
> in her mind she could still drive a car, do her shopping an cooking and household and had plenty of friends in the village, none of those things were true for at least 5 years or more.
> and still we managed to leave the decision to her.
> it was nice today she did express her appreciation to me for helping her, she knows we love her and want her to be happy.
Margaret: At no point did I doubt that you were acting for her best interest. I hoped I had made that clear. Maybe not.
It was just that in reading you posts on the situation … put me in mind of how I might feel in a similar situation.
I thought it was worth expressing … but c’est la vie.
Too hot in my room to write, 94 degrees and my a/c is broke. Had a little altercation with the wife. I told her how I felt, and that is it. I don’t think she even thinks about me at all, of this I am all but certain. Thank god she doesnt have psychotic reactions the way she used to.. Any, a few minutes later while exercycling in the 94 degree heat outside, so the cat could get 10 minutes of outside time, I realized a good part of this incident was an giant old feeling of being abandoned by my brother and my cousin long ago. They would disappear for hours and not give a shit about including me. The end. Except for all the other abandonments chained to it. Whatever. Too hot to put details. Go watch tv in the living room. Eat by myself, one of my major act outs. Cried big time at PI yesterday, but too hot for details to write.
It just gets me………………like this Florida thing I have taken a great interest in and really have found out as much as I can and jack off man somehow relates it to I am trying to say primal therapy is a hoax. His ‘belief system’ is all that seems to matter always defend defend that as if it was under attack. Like a religious nut case as always.
There might of course be some similarities that might appear to him…………….there is the ‘fake crying’ and the ‘fake emotions’ I had not really thought of that but I suppose there is something there. Also the inane ‘repetition’ repeat repeat repeat and that might make it ‘true’ In any case it’s Sunday evening and jack off man has nothing to do except spark a fight which I suppose he has succeeded in now to some degree. Like a said go out in the streets or to Venice Beach public bathrooms and ‘talk’ to a cop like the old days. But if you want money to keep your perverted ass in the country ask the primal institute……………you seem to know who your ‘friends’ are……………as for me KEEP WALKING jack ass………………..
Quote:- “It just gets me………………like this Florida thing I have taken a great interest in and really have found out as much as I can”
Suggestion:- How about just stating just HOW it all gets to you. You seeming never get beneath what you say. It’s all just off the top of your head … and fuck anything underneath. Sort of Trump-ish!!!!
That is precisely why you failed this therapy IMO. You, even now,seemingly know little of what it’s about.
Meantime; for me I sort of don’t mind the heat, but Jimbo hates it. Maybe it’s because I came for a cold dreary weather country and couldn’t wait to get to better climes … first, in the south of England. then later in Ibiza where the weather was glorious, and I soaked up the sun greedily.
Getting here the weather was also great for me, but the city is beginning to not be so attractive anymore. Thinking of maybe returning to Europe, but Jimbo born in a tropical country seems to want colder climes Brrrrrrr. BUT I suppose, since he put up with me and California for 35 years I will have to go with him and make a compromise between Sweden his first choice, and Spain, mine.
On other thing that happened to me some three weeks ago that I thought not to bother folks here with was I stepped off a curb and it was steeper than I thought and I missed my step and fell and cracked a rib. Knowing that there was little the medics could do about it, I suffered lack of sleep for the first two nights, but thing have improved since and now the pain is almost entirely gone.
All else, nothing special except I am very happy with my relationship and though not perfect (are they ever???) I feel good that I am less and less inclined to get upset with other peoples foibles. I put that down to my therapy. BUT then, according to some; I would, wouldn’t I???
You have told us ALL of this before including falling of the curb (you even got about 4 or 5 people ‘supporting’ you) are you losing your mind yes you are and as far as allowing other people foibles whey the f. can’t you let me have mine moron. Oh I forgot everything I say you are afraid it might challenge your religion so you have to ‘defend’ that according to your religion always defending is not good a good sign according to your religion There are lot of not good signs…………..
seroquel sounds familiar to me somehow.
Folk Uke Motherfucker Got Fucked Up.. (cause he got in the way) .i will put the full link here, since it is a new page. Made me sad to hear it, just the melody maybe, or maybe the words do. Z thought it was funny, which maybe it is. not sure. another non-meeting of the minds. she is out at cheesecake factory because kid had a free gift card. I was too hot to go with them. I figured out that i am actually working 7 days a week, at least not 8. makes me a little burnt out and nasty with her. just trying to pay her bills.
i am the motherfucker who got fucked up by Uncle Al. I should have let myself cry, now that Z is not here, but well, I am not such a hero as I would like to be. Stuff it back down till next time.
> it is no problem, what you said made me reflect on and summarize what my feelings are about having encouraged our mom to make the transition to the care home.
> and the overall feeling is it was a good thing as the only alternative for her was to get more and more isolated and scruffy and lost in her house, and not really happy for being bored and alone.
> she really enjoys the social interaction already and it should keep getting better.
> her wanting to join the group for dinner and to participate with the gym are reassuring signals.
> of course it is not a black and white thing of good or bad, but looking at it I realized better I feel we did the right thing in a good way.
> now some stuff remains like what do we do with her old furniture and all the little things she still has in the old place, and to which degree do we include her, as going back there too soon wil bring up more pain than gain, to which even she agreed.
> my brother seems to want to get rid of a lot as soon as possible, I tend to want to refrai him, maybe we can store some stuff for when she gets a bigger room next year..
> it is not an easy process for any of us, but it does bring moments of care and tenderness and closeness as well.
> it occurred to me reading the replies I might ask my brother to hold me, will see…
> thanks all for the feedback.
> Otto, it is an antipsychotic which in very small doses takes away a lot of the confusion which makes it useful at some times, but in my mom’s case under the condition of stopping it again after a while.
> feel a bit tense about going there this morning with my halfsister, want to tell them to let her have lunch in the big room, to let her join the gym and make her go there with Niske for reassurance, and to if possible bring both her and niske to the piano sometimes, as niske would like it and she could bring my mom back afterwards as her memory is just a fraction better than my mom’s.
> it is raining once more here…
> a good thing too come to think of it my mom went now to the home, not just before or while I would come to L.A.
> sigh, so many worries, wanting to be protective, not sure where my own stuff is in all of that, but that is secondary right now, tie enough to deal with that when it comes up.
> other stuff to do, it is 8 am and I did already read all the mail, fed the cats and cleaned the litter boxes, took a bath, had breakfast and vacuumed the place..
> would like to be able to sleep in someone’s arms come to think of it..
> I feel very upset.
> I went with my halfsister and her husband to see my mom this morning, and she was in a very pad state, dizzy and could hardly speak, and she did not feel well.
> I had called her earlier in the morning around nine, and then she sounded more alert and told me she still had not recieved her food.
> she was eating bread when we arrived, but then it was already half past ten.
> there were a lot of stains on her clothes, she was still wearing the same as when she got there last thursday.
> the caretaker in charge this morning was unfriendly and impatient, told us she had refused to get out of bed in the orning, and when I told her she had told me she would like to join the others for lunch, she replied first she would have to see whether there was room for her, which sounds like bullshit as there is plenty of room in the new part where they eat together, and well, she is a resident there so of course there should be space for her.
> then she said they had tried it but she had left the table and the same for the gym, the nurse also said it was no use as she did not stay.
> so what, they should simply try it again and encourage her gently.
> when I asked her to take her to the piano with her friend, again the same excuses , when i asked her to put some clean socks on her at least from time to time, she said they put fresh cloths on once a week when they take them to the big bathrooom.
> I feel it is mainly this caretaker not having a heart for her job, I can’t believe it is common policy to leave the residents in dirty clothes for an entire week if they had an accident, it should not be like that.
> but the worst part of it is yet to come, my mom could barely stand on her feet, was dizzy and did not feel well, and could hardly speak.
> we sat her down in an easy chair, had to help her to get to it, where she immediately fell asleep, making strange moaning sounds.
> I called her doctor and explained the situation, told him maybe they had given too uch of the medication, or left it laying around so maybe she took two doses, and maybe she took them in the morning instead of the evening.
> he promised to come by later on today and check with the nurse.
> maybe someone gave her an extra tranquilizer, not uncommon in some care homes.
> we put her in bed, and I started feeling very dizzy myself, had to sit down twice as I was about to faint myself..
> I will go again tomorrow afternoon with my half sister, who felt very bad about the whole thing too.
> it is difficult as a nurse like this might react even worse if you address her, if this happens again or continues I will go straight to the director who is a nice guy.
> I feel bad, tend to feel guilty but know I should not be, as they are supposed to g
> take good care of her, so far the people we met were all ok, the one working this morning is an indifferent bitch seemingly..
> haaa, my brother was on my answering machine but not home when i called him, he will be so distressed..
> glad I have my halfsister living not as far away as my brother, I can take a taxi to her and then the bus together to mom, still a bit of a trip but much better than alone..
> it is hard to know someone like that works there and does not give a damn and maybe even someone just gave her more medication .
> will have to check with the doctor as he also tends to minimize problems or even forget to go alltogether.
> boy this is upsetting.
> told my brother, he e-mailed social service from care home.
> tried to call mom in afternoon, did not answer so called home and asked for her section and asked the caretaker about mom.
> turned out she was fine now and even participating with some activity.
> this one was very nice, and i told her about what went on in the morning, and even almost started crying.
> she said she never had a problem with our mom
> then got mail with excuses from the social service there who told us they would follow it up
> then got a phone call from the director who said he wanted to get together anyway to discuss the situation and possible progress in adjusting of our mom with us.
> he sounded a bit concerned, but of course he mainly hears from the problems during the first days, and he was glad to hear I could tell him she was participating in an activity this afternoon, and that she had asked herself to eat with the other residents.
> but then I added the caretaker of that morning had refused to let her have lunch with the rest coming up with the crazy excuse there was no room, and then saying my mom had gotten up the time when she had tried it a few days earlier and had walked around, or out, who knows.
> so what , does it mean when she asks for it again she should not get the chance?
> the director was not pleased about the caretakers attitude when I told him the story about not wanting to change mom’s dirty cloths, and snapping at me when I told her I would at least change her socks myself.
> he said that was not the normal attitude of their home, and I said I believed him as all the other personnel was really fine but this one was the other way around.
> he said he was considering moving the piano up to my mom’s floor so she could have easy access to it, as they want their residents to be ok.
> so when we see him we will have to reassure him she is adjusting despite her occasional rebellious moods, and she never actually went out on the street, and we did visit her every day so far to support them during the adjusting process, which he does not know I think.
> he said they crertainly do not give extra medication, but all the more reason the caretaker should have at least checked on our mom when we told her she was not well at all, could not walk or speak properly right then.
> argh, good that we signalled but bad there is at least one really bad employee my mom might have to cope with a lot of mornings.
> we’ll see how things go, my mom really deserves a fair chance and enough time to adjust.
> and to be treated well in the meantime.
> just gave mom a brief call, she sounded tired and slightly down but seemed to be willing to make the effort to keep adjusting.
> she did not know anymore she had joined the game that afternoon, ‘sjoelbakken’, throwing iron rounds to a flat wooden plate with numbered holes in it, for points.
> it is usually fun, and it is sad that even though she probably had a nice time she does not remember it afterwards, as she can’t pour joy or comfort from the memory and expectations for more fun that way.
> we can only consolate ourselves a bit with the idea at least she might have fun while participating on the moment itself.
> we can’t make it all right for her, she did like the news they might move the piano up to her floor specially for her.
> it is sad and a bit painful, I mostly worry about my brother, or equally so, and should worry about myself a bit too as I almost seemed to be about to faint twice there this morning, suddenly cold sweat and dizzy and nauseous to the point of having to sit down and wait for it to improve a couple of times..
> hope the director remains cooperative and gets some positive feedback or no more bad news the coming days..
> thank heave for having my family members for support in all of this, hard enough already, can’t imagine how hard it would be without support.
Margaret, boy it does sound distressing what you’re having to go through. It is good that the director is listening to you and wants to make things right. Thank goodness for family for sure. Hope things even out for your mom and she can get into a comfortable routine. I would have wanted to yell at that rude caretaker–what an unfeeling poop-head.
Here is a (((hug))) for you. You are a good daughter. Take care.
> thanks Sylvia, your hug really touched me..
Look outside tonight – there is a rare strawberry moon! Gretch p.s. No it’s not a conspiracy! 🙂
Gretchen: I looked outside and it was just a nice bright full moon. I saw nothing “Strawberry” about it and so am convinced it’s yet another conspiracy!!!!!!!!!! 😦 😦 .
These are the ‘cracklings’ of the know nothings – Gretchen included. There is nothing to be proud of in the inability to link or couple things. What I call ‘co-incidence’ thinking. Dr Kruse has said it is usually a sign of a badly functioning brain and usually a prelude to even worse thinking. But then again to people who believe Janov has said and done it all they have boxed themselves in pretty much from the beginning……………….
Correction: that should have been ‘cacklings’.
Quote:- “What I call ‘co-incidence’ thinking. Dr Kruse has said it is usually a sign of a badly functioning brain.”
If you think Dr. .Kruse the is the ‘be all and end all’, to know about brain, functioning that is your prerogative. Does he have a blog?? if so, I feel you might get a better response from that one than you do from this one. Janov created through Primal Theory, a whole other way of seeing human psychology …. that no other had ever done.
It is inceredulous to me that you hang in here knowing you are not popular and seeming beleive in none of it. Somthing “crackling” up therein the nether regions of your brain, I suspect. Maybe come to think of it, perhaps this is the only blog where you are allowed to blow off your ideas, conspiracies and the likes … that might explain a lot. BUT you do sound like a very bitter person to me.
Yes; The moon is ‘yuge’ tonite. Tremendous.
So glad to hear you dealt with the situation with that lousy employee quickly Margaret. Who knows how many others have or should have. You have either started or added to documented evidence of her/his ineptness and that is a good thing!
Bernadette – I did see your response to me back on the other page and thank you! If only deep, yogic breathing could make it all go away :).
Hoping to meet you this summer. You know where so many of us are and hope you are there too- but if not – what about a visit?
> feel bad. physically for a nasty cold coming up, and emotionally.
> thought the comment coming from ‘primal’ might be Gretchen addressing me and it was about the full moon.
> made me feel disappointed and aware of craving some of her support and attention.
> guess it is the old feeling of needing a strong caring mom, focusing on her, but knowing that helps little and I seem not to be able to go into the feeling as it is all too acute in the present situation.
> have to go there by public transport today with my half sister, and feel almost like staying home with the cold, but would feel worse if I did as the next time i can go is friday with my brother and the director might come there to see me this afternoon.
> and f.. it is my birthday today, don’t need a bunch of happy birthdays, just some nice words as you already give me are fine.
> did not know whether writing was a good or bad thing to do but now i feel crying is coming up to the surface so it was useful seemingly.
> could start crying, and then deeper crying, small child’s and toddler’s, when the simplicity of the feeling struck me:
> ‘I need you!’
> more there to come..
> this is so terribly frustrating.
> I called mom’s doctor and turns out he prescribed the medication to be given in the morning instead of in the evening, causing her to be dizzy and drugged when she needs to function instead of giving her a quiet night and then a relatively easy day.
> I called him twice, and all he said he was gonna look into it.
> I can go to the nursing staff in the home but of course they will wait for the doctor’s prescription to change before they do.
> the meds were started up to begin with again because of her roaming around there at night, so this makes no sense wahtsoever, now she needs to go and take a shower while the meds start to work, nd they expect her to participate in activities while being doped during the day.
> might have to change doctors altogether.
Happy birthday Margaret!I hope you enjoy the day. You have a lot to deal with and deserve a break. That doctor in charge of your mother does seem kind of absent minded himself.
Margaret: I send you the “Best wishes” for your birthday … knowing you are feeling bad about things. You were born on Mid summers night For a moment … think about all the frolics of Shakspear’s Mid Summer Nights Dream. I’ll play Bottom with the asses head, and you can play Titania the fairy queen. Just for a little while.
Really hope your birthday improves Margaret! I am glad you wrote and wrote so honestly.
Please do take care of yourself. You have had so much to take care of with your Mom and it is difficult for everyone with the big changes…Long term – positive ones – but lots of hurdles enroute.
I am thinking of you today and sending you Happy Birthday wishes – that I so look forward to delivering to you in person this summer!!
> hi folks,
> thanks for the wishes, today can’t be called a relaxing day really, but it as useful in the end, or feels that way, will have to see the results first.
> my half sister and me went there all afternoon, reorganized all the shelves and clothes and let my mom take a nap in the meantime, then we contacted first the caretakers of the section but after talking with them finally found they were not the nurses as we thought they were, but they had listened attentively to us anyway and came back to tell us they had called the head nurse and we could go and see her downstairs.
> she was surprised though to see us, as she only works with appointments usually, so there was a bit of miscommunication, but she was very nice and when I asked her if she had five minutes for us as we were there she said sure of course and then finally we had what felt like a constructive conversation about the meds that should be given in the evening instead of morning.
> I told her how frustrating it was to call the doctor three times that same morning about it, a mistake he originally made to start with and how he only kept saying he would look into things, thus procrastinating a bad situation once more.
> I told her he is a nice man but that I do not trust his medical responsibility anymore, and she understood as she knows him as well.
> she said she would change the schedule for the meds and also contact him to tell him it was her opinion it should change.
> she sounded like it would really happen, smiley.
> she was also appalled about mom’s cloths still being the same as when she arrived and the nurse from the day before refusing to change them when it was not official bathing day.
> she said it was completely counter to the home’s policy of always making their residents look pretty and clean and well taken care of.
> she immediately asked who it was and when exactly she had been on duty.
> we talked about changing doctors at some point, and she mentioned the worry they have about our mom leaving out on the street some day.
> when I mentioned with all what had happened so far we were actually considering the option of taking our mom back to her former house with more care there, she said she did not think my mom was still a person who could live on her own.
> that shows they do not want to ‘get rid’ of her or something, but want to look for solutions .
> we took mom and her neighbor lady Niske to the cafeteria for ice cream and that was nice, mom keeps making little steps in adjusting, but keeps of course also bringing up her house ..
> told my brother that even if she adjusts up to the point of participating in all activities and having plenty of nice times there, most of the day, there will still always be moments when she is back on her room, as she does not remember those good times, that she will wonder ‘what am I doing here?’, this is not my house…
> still we must keep giving her time and encouraging her to participate as in her former house she was getting very lonely and things were deteriorating at a fast rate, and as she objects all the time to people coming there to assist her, it would raise serious problems very soon that might be much worse than her occasionally being cross with us for having been ‘put’ there..
> she really enjoyed being helped with fresh cloths and with washing herself, and enjoys company and socializing so well, will see, for the moment we still have all options available as my brother did not give notice about the rent yet just in case.
> it is ironical with all the effort we put in to her,daily all this week, she did still grumble at osme point ‘ok you just want to get rid of me..’
> luckily other moments she does appreciate our help so well, I guess we must be able to live with that bit of grumbling and her being cross from time to time, she is easily distracted so that is a good thing.
> feel much better coming back home today than I did yesterday, even after not having been able to do anything else today than spending my morning on the phone first and then from 12 till seven pm taking care of her and commuting..
> the talk with the head nurse seemed an important step forwards.
> haa, sigh, so yes, Phil, will try to relax tomorrow and urgently do some studying as in three weeks I do have an exam, evolutionary psychology ..
> feel we did a good job today, not investing energy in the levels that would only obey the logbook the doctor filled in with his prescriptions but going directly to the level that dares to take initiative to change a decision and then let the doctor know..
> she told me we could contact her at any time, and it felt very good she did reach out to me when I was leaving and stroked my shoulder a couple of times in a warm gesture of encouragement.
Happy Birthday Margaret. The satisfaction of having done the best for your mother in her transition to her new home is kind of a birthday present.
I just heard on the ‘regular’ News MSNBC that there was a ‘massive lone shooter drill’ conducted in ORLANDO, FL about 3 months ago. People who understand and are knowledgeable about these things say always look for the DRILL, and then later the ‘drill goes live’ and lo and behold you have a big ‘event’. This is very typical of these ‘co-incidences’…………….have a drill and later the ‘real’ event mirrors the drill exactly. Gretchen might consider that a ‘conspiracy’ I dunno I think that is a better explanation that another ‘co-incidence’ I mean how many of these ‘co-incidences’ is it reasonable to always have to explain away. Each ‘event’ guess what there WAS a ‘drill’…………….over and over again.
And I know Gretchen seemed to be upset that I did not automatically believe the ‘grieving’ mother well check this out. Almost certainly this woman is an ‘actor’ I thought Gretchen might be able to tell ‘fake’ from ‘real’ crying…………………and Jack your repetitive comments are not needed here actually they never are…………..you can repeat and repeat like a broken record which is what you are to me a ‘broken record’……………..
Quote:- “…..repetitive comments are not needed here actually they never are…………..you can repeat and repeat like a broken record …..”
Is this not YOUR repeat for some 50 times???? Incidentally, are you the new keeper of the blog???
Repeating is about 99% of what takes place in the world … now and in the past … and, I suspect for the future.
Simple examples:- making a meal, going to work, doing shopping, AND one last one, that seemingly, you have not enjoyed … making love
Don’t worry … that’s a feeling you very can easily over come.
Happy Birthday Margaret! I won’t make any comments about the bad care your mom has been getting, since it infuriates me. Maybe the full moon was controlling that one loony employee. When I was in a crowded parking lot this morning, waiting patiently for a car backing out of his space, I realized that there was someone laying on his horn and i turned around to see what was going on. It was a Mercedes driver and he was honking at me. He wanted me to move forward a bit so he could back out at the same time as the other car. Well let me tell you how I feel about Mercedes drivers, and also drivers who honk at me (i am not including BB and GB because they cant possibly be as rude as the majority of Mercedes-and also BMW drivers–and also most Millennial drivers–well the list is long). Anyway, you honk at me, and you won’t be moving forward or backward anytime soon. I stuck my head out the window and cursed this rich bastard, and gave him the evil eye, and made him wait. After i finally moved forward, I knew i had wanted to jump out of my car and go fuck with him, but i guess i am lucky i did not. Some people will run you over or shoot you when you do that. Anyway, so i best not give you any comments on your treatment at the Old Folks home. Some people, maybe you see this more in the movies, some people can be sweet and charm this type of person, “oh you must be so tired, this looks like a really challenging job, look like you got your hands full”. well i can do that some times, when i am at work and i am kinda supposed to be that way. anyway i got 2 airconditioners installed in our house today. I had to sleep on couch cushions on the floor of my wife’s office last night, since the a/c in my bedroom could not handle the 110 degree heat last night, so i finally go motivated today, of course the absolutely new a/c is making funny sounds already….ha!
> I wonder how we could help our mom to process the idea of saying goodbye to her house and most of the things she had there.
> she does not remember having said on several occasions she felt it might be a good time to move to the nursing home as she felt she was really getting older..
> would it help her to go back with her to the house?
> help her to pick out some stuff she can still put in the home or which things to sell or even to store?
> or would it just stir up things all over again and increase the trauma when the moment arrives of leaving there and going back to the home?
> i fear she will get stuck once more in the endless circle of questions why she had to leave and why she cannot stay there indefinitely..
> do you have any advice on this Gretchen?
> or anybody else?
Margaret: Since you are asking; one suggest: let her come to her own decissions about everything. If she is not able to do even that, I feel she will at least tell you her children what’s she’s feeling and what is going on with herself as best she knows how.
I personally feel it is a mistake to have to constantantly think about what is taking in place in anyones mind, other than ones own. I also feel this this the genius of Primal therapy. We come to it, in our own good way and time for ourselves Just a suggestion.
From the perspective of half way around the world from you, I have the same fear as you Margaret, that going back to her house would stir up things all over again and increase the trauma when the moment arrives of leaving to go back to the home. It also depends on how determined and disciplined she is that it was the right decision in the first place to move to the home. It seems like your mother is no longer capable of making sound decisions all of the time for herself any more.
> spoke with my brother and we agree mom must get the opportunity to decide on her furniture and go to the house in order to do so at some point, but it is also clear it will probably become a very difficult day, and hard to bring hr back to the care home.
> he said this morning she sounded more or less ok, but when I called her just now to try to remind her of the gym at eleven, and encourage her a bit, she answered my first question about how she was doing with she is just sitting alone in her room with nothing to do.
> so I said aha, I know a solution for that problem and brought up the gym and reminded her of the promise she made to the lady next door to join her for the gym, she said she did not want to do it and did not want to do any of the activities.
> in the end I got a bit short with her, saying we do all we can to make things ok for her, after she decided to go there, and one moment she complains she has nothing to do and is alone, but then says no to whatever possibility there is to be with people and do things.
> i told her she has to make some effort from her side as well, as it started irritating me she kept answering in this extra plaintive tone ‘yeah’ as if just saying yes but behaving like a victim.
> i feel still the irritation but hopefully it is useful to shake her up a bit and not go along with the plaintive attitude all the time as she needs to start cooperating a bit.
> oh well, have to let it go.
> she said something about just having been outside but did not seem to have a clue what for although she did mention a bunch of other people, so I do not know whether it was something good or whether she did an escape attempt and was brought back, who knows.
> today no one will visit her, tomorrow her boyfriend and Friday me and my brother, and then we also have appointments with the staff to evaluate things.
> think I won’t call her until then and let things develop without me ha, if possible, if no one contacts me..
> i told her as well she did say we just want to get rid of her, while we never put so much time and effort into taking care of her as we did the last week since she moved to the home.
> at first she said she did not say such a thing, someone must have made that up, but I told her she did say it to me directly the day before.
> on some level it has seemingly no sense as she forgets the whole conversation immediately, but on the other hand possibly emotionally she does pick up she has been going far enough with that attitude..
> and also for myself I need to find ways to cope and do not want to go along with all her whims and manipulations.
> so well, that’s it for now..
Margaret, I am sure it is Very hard to disentangle your ‘old’ feelings relating to your mum, and the current behaviours she presents as someone with dementia, such a lot to deal with.
I wondered whether it would be possible for you and family members to allow more time to pass before you introduce more decisions for your mum (with regard to the choosing of furniture)?
She and the medical team and staff need that, I would think…
In the future, photos of the personal items and furniture and maybe her (now past) home could be shown to her, when/if her input is needed..
> yes, the idea of working with photos occurred to me.
> but she is insisting a lot on wanting to go there, and it is only a two minutes walk from the home, so we try to postpone and even tell her it might not be a good moment right now, sometimes she agrees and sometimes she is not open to reason….
It seems to me that taking your mother back to her old home is bound to make things more difficult and to create problems. Maybe it’s better not to do that in the interest of getting her settled in where she is now.
> well, the hard thing is she brings up wanting to go to her old house regularly and also has a hard time thinking all her stuff is disposed off without her having any say in it.
> it is not easy at all to know what would be best.
> we told her a million times on forehand when she had to let go of her car as she was not allowed to drive anymore, which caused big emotional scenes which I dealt with by talking with her endlessly and of course listening to her and encouraging her she would be able to cope, and also by gently bringing her to face the reality of it, and then letting her cry hard and deeply and then holding her and rocking her and whispering in her ear she would be able to cope, when she kept repeating she could not live without her car.
> we then decided to sell the car to a cousin before she got home from the hospital, telling her about it though daily and supporting her in her distress before the day came she went home and had to face the car was gone.
> up to this point she has a problem with it, and we are not sure whether we did it right.
> so now we all tend to feel we want to make her feel she is somehow invoved as well in deciding what happens, and needs to be faced with it.
> I feel a bit about it like it being crucial to see a deceased person in order to accept he or she is really dead and to grieve and say goodbye..
> today it also struck me how sad I feel about her not having wished me happy birthday despite having mentioned it several times yesterday when we were there.
> she did react when we said we would go down for icecream as it was our birthdays, my halfsister on monday and me on tuesdayl, and then she did say then it was her treat, and later on asked about our age and then went on about hers, but not once she wished me a happy birthday and although at that moment it seemed not immportant now it makes me very sad.
> it is part of the feeling ‘I need you, mommy I need you’
> was not gonna call her until we go there on friday after my call this morning when I had to face her negativity, but already I am starting to feel the neeed to call her, it is five pm now.
> what do I need from her?
> I need her to be happy I think.
> i want her to be adult, and to be there for me, don’t know, can’t find the proper words for what Iwant.
> i want her to be happy as that is the only way to make her incessant need stop and for me to get a break, I want my own pain and sadness and craving to stop..
> lonely too I guess..
> I guess the old feeling is I want her to be there for me.
> I want her to be strong and healthy and happy and for her to take care of me and me not having to take care of her.
> can’t get there really, so will let it go for now.
> just did try to call her but the line was busy so that’s good.
> my half sister was gonna call her this afternoon and call me later on.
> maybe I don’t want her to feel as sad and lost as I do, my mom I mean, but it is mainly me, or both of us whom I want to be ok and happy…
> f.. sorry half smiley does not seem to lead anywhere right now..
Hey Margaret, First of all Happy Birthday ! 🎂 I wish I had an easy answer for you but one, there are none and two, no one can know what’s best for you other than you. I can say it wasn’t that long ago that I was dealing with my own version of this. I do agree with Jack ( if I understood correctly) that it is important for everyone to feel they have some control in their own lives. I often think that part of the problem has something to do with our own inability to come to terms with the fact that our parents will die eventually. I say this because I often see the elderly treated as ” hot house flowers” that we must be very careful to preserve or sadly, both irrelevant and invisible . Your moms situation is tricky because if I understood correctly her condition falls somewhere in the middle . She’s not well enough to live alone and yet not at the point where she doesn’t retcognize people or can’t communicate at all. I’m thinking there will be a great deal of upset when she goes to sort through her things but I do believe if at all possible ( and sometimes it isn’t) she has a right to do that. If it were my mom I might point out that she had the option to stay at her home with a caregiver but did not want that at the time. My own mom chose to spend the end of her life at home with a caregiver. It began with a few days a week and was slowly increased till she eventually needed full time help 24 seven. For her that was the best option. My bigger concern at this point is for you and your brother. You are both doing a great deal and I can’t imagine you can keep up this pace. I might suggest you take turns visiting some of the time so that you each might have a break. I’m sure you are aware that there is a somewhat symbiotic relationship between the three of you that likely existed long before your mom was ill. That being said you both have been the model son and daughter. Just be sure to take care of yourself as well. We sometimes can forget that the dynamics that existed throughout our lives will continue to exist as our parents age and become needier. Gretchen
Gretchen: I know this is going to detract from Margaret’s troubles taking care of her mom, yet your post reminded me of my dad. Even though he is almost 80 years old he still frequently flies around the country (once or twice a month) for business and still has a ring of salt-and-pepper black hair adorning the baldness of his crown. I count myself as fortunate he can still hold so much together intellectually at his age even though many of his friends have died off. He still has many younger friends and a fair number of people depend on his intellectual skills, yet dad’s only temper tantrums show up in my presence even though he is a genteel academic to everyone else. I am the only person dad yells at, yet I have a lot of patience for it because I try to preserve him as a precious cultural institution (aka “hothouse flower” as you said).
I often regale dad with stories of the 96 year-old inventor of the Heimlich maneuver still performing life-saving CPR, the 91 year-old pole vaulter, and the 94 year-old skydiver. Dad always rolls his eyes and says, “Yeah, right, those guys are outliers, one in a MILLION!” whenever I remind him of these stories showing the years he potentially still has ahead of him. Ironically, dad’s always complaining to me about being a “dinosaur” and “marginalized” by society even though his social contacts are reasonably strong. He invokes Charlie Brown a lot by his being a “weed in the lawn of humanity”.
Am I doing the wrong thing by consistently showing him that his complaints are not backed by actual evidence (ie. that he is not marginalized and that he has a legit shot at making it into his 90’s)? I mean, I understand dad might be having a “feeling” when he throws a tantrum with me…but I only look at it with a semi-wry amusement anymore because I know it passes eventually and he is a genteel academic that everyone loves once more.
I just worry that dad wallowing in any form of self-pity at this point in his life would only be detrimental to his mind’s well-being even if it’s only a feeling.
I admit my problems with dad are not nearly as serious or concerning as Margaret’s with her mother for the time being, yet no one lives or functions highly forever, I guess….
As a summary, the purpose of my post was to simply to ask Gretchen what might be the best way to approach dad when he is at his emotional worst with the help of a rich backstory. Should I let dad plunge into a temperamental feeling where there may be no connection or resolution since dad is never going to be interested in Janov’s approach? Or simply keep his defenses sharp presenting contrasting evidence to the reasons he should feel sorry for himself whenever he is down in the dumps?
I have no problem at all with going right back to Margaret’s concerns and I didn’t want to steal attention away from her. Those questions were all I needed to ask.
> I think you are right in that mom is not able to make sound decisions anymore.
> and she is not determined and certainly not disciplined at all in her decision about the home, she might have been at some point but now seems more inclined to stick to opposition most of the time.
> it might be better to use photographs indeed, we could try it.
> and I fear we will have to live with her blaming us for her being there and feeling unhappy some of the time..
> it is heartbreaking but I don’t think we have another option.
> if we would take her back home, it would already be a problem to start up more household help as they are reluctant to try working again with my mom as she sent them away a number of times in the past so the service was canceled several times.
> all she kept was her cleaning lady once a week.
> also the brief visits of the nurse every morning remained a continuous struggel.
> but it is plainly impossible to have her alone back home without almost continuous looking after when she deteriorates more still, and soon she would be rebellious against all helpers, her problem is she regards them all as ‘strangers’, also in the care home.
> we will have to stick it out I fear and hope she adjusts over time.
> it is sad she is like this now as it drives people away from her, I feel less inclined to call her already, and fear her boyfriend does not really look out to his visit for today..
> have to let it go, which I cannot do if i call her too often, it is very sad but well, my life is not that happy all the time either..
> I need to remind myself of the times I called her at her house, and she was in tears, saying something was wrong in hher head, and other occasions when it was becoming clear things are going downhill.
> of course there are the many times she said she was very glad to be in her house, more and more times as she felt she might not be there much longer actually.
> we have to keep reminding ourselves she agreed and sometimes even insisted on getting a room in the nursing home.
> but yes, we did encourage it and therefor it is hard not to feel guilty about her not liking it.
> will just hear what they say tomorrow and what my brother says and not take all the responsibility on my shoulders.
> at some point when my halfsister told her to try the gym she answered she was not ready for that, so maybe it is a little signal she is still in a phase of protest and might come around more later on..
> maybe it is as simple as giving her and ourselves more time, I have read somewhere or heard here it usually takes two to three weeks for people to start adjusting..
> long sigh…
> Gretchen, no idea why you did not answer, of course you don’t have to.
> I think I do feel a bit hurt though, but also want to be very careful not to struggle or lord forbid manipulate.
> my feelings might be part of an old problem about trusting , you, mother figures, who knows, or mommy dear herself for sure..
> Dear Gretchen,
> sorry for my former comment which will possibly appear after yours did.
> my comments get posted with quite a bit of delay depending on what time of the day or night, as Phil pastes them for me in here.
> so thanks very much for your long reply that makes a lot of sense and is sensitive and caring as well, it really touched me just getting it.
> only read it once and will certainly go over it a fair number of times again.
> you are absolutely right, the good thing is by interacting so much with each other, my brother and me are becoming more aware of the importance to set our boundaries and to take care of ourselves as well, and of the in-sociability of our mom’s needs sometimes.
> like today for me it feels very good to let her be, she must be struggling there possibly with the staff as it should be shower or bath time for her today, smiley…
> her boyfriend will visit her, and well, it is up to her and whoever else today to take care, I am not gonna do anything today unless called for.
> my brother and me are already taking turns as a few times I went there with my half sister and also with her now we start not always doing it together anymore, as for her it is easier, she just has to catch a bus by her door and get off it by the home, fifteen minutes later.
> and I think she likes doing it so that is fina, I will go with her from time to time but certainly not always.
> tomorrow me and my brother have appointments there with the director and headnurse for evaluation .
> he said we will also celebrate my birthday as that did not get much attention so far.
> he is such a nice man, and vulnerable as well.
> due to circumstances back then, as my mom had to divorce his dad while still being pregnant, he had to pass his first three years for a big deal in an institution so I think all of this triggers a lot for him.
> but he seems to have a fair deal of common sense about it as well, though of course it is very very hard to be faced with our mom saying she is not happy there over and over again.
> i feel very protective of him too, and feel like crying while writing these words.
> it is good he leaves a lot to me and my half sister these days as he has done so much already and lives more than an hour driving away and also takes care of the administration and other practical issues I can only partly help him with.
> but actually we do form a good team and give each other support on many different levels.
> we know we cannot provide happiness for her all the time, and have to let it go to some degree.
> she is in a good place now, practically speaking, and it is up to her to make something of it or not, but of course her condition is making it extremely difficult as lately she does not even remember there is a cafeteria when she is in her room.
> it is all pretty sad, but we cannot take the whole load on our shoulders.
> as you say, she did refuse more help when still at home, and even if she would promise she would accept it if she could return, we can’t take her word for it as she would very soon start making trouble again, while losing more of her capacities, so we are in a ifficult position of having to assess and accept it is not an option to take her back home with more care.
> I think it will help us to hear what the director and head nurse who are both two very nice and gentle people tell us tomorrow, their view and their ideas and options.
> tanks again Gretchen, I do feel scared and vulnerable, but also in a way very grounded and at peace with myself, more or less, smiley..
> to be continued, Margaret and cats
> p.s. this morning I already sent my brother a mail about the possibility of working with photographs to allow our mom to decide on her belongings.
> maybe we can do it in some kind of conbination, using this at first as another signal she will not return there to live there.
> it is so sad she forgets every nice moment she has at the home right afterwards..
> she will drop back easily into ‘what am I doing here in this little room all by myself with nothing but strangers around’ feeling.
> not much we can do about it apart from engaging ourselves into a lot of trouble and problems and losing out on our own life if wh would let her go back to her house.
> hard as it is, not my choice, more so for my brother even than for me as he gets the hardest part of the caring .
> so she will have to adjust and we will have to deal with her resentment, which will hopefully diminish if she learns some routines there.
> hopefully the piano goes up to her floor soon.
> pps the thing is she did already tell us a fair number of times before she went to the home and specially the last couple of days before, which piece of furniture could go to whom, not realizing thise people did not necessarily want or have space to put it..
> so she already received a lot of control in the whole thing but the sad thing is she forgets..
> our mom has told us from very young during all her life on regular occasions she would not live long, to her defense she has been very ill a fair number of times, but the impact on us was a fear of losing her from a very early age on I guess.
> it might also be a bit like the boy crying wolf, after a number of times the effect wears off..
> the good thing is me and my brother are much more open the last years about the ways in which she is irritating so we are emotionally much stronger to stand our ground , I think, smiley..
> it is very good to have each other as feedbak and support and my halfsister as well, she appears when things get tough while otherwise our lifes take mostly separate courses.
> one good thing is there is a good sense of humour in our family, even our mom is still open to that and laughs easily.
> Guru, glad to hear you do not have to be a caretaker for your dad at this point, good to read some more about you and him,
> you are not stealing anything away from me, relax about that.
> maybe the only option is giving your dad your honest response in some way, about how you feel, that he has not that much to complain about or even that you would like to change the subject, whatever as long as you do not allow him to keep you hostage sort of to dump on you for too long..
> but well, I might be wrong, you are in the position to try out various approaches, smiley, keep us posted!
Gretchen: I feel you understood me well. This whole matter of aging parents and even in my case ageing siblings; brings up several matters for me.
The first were the deaths if both may parents. My mother throughout her life always said that she did not want us her children to have to take care of her. We were lucky, we none of us had to. She died of a heart attack at 73 and knew she was going to go soon. I came home from Ibiza to see her as promised, whilst she still lived. I was not going to go to her funeral. On leaving her for the last time, I hugged and kissed her as the taxi drove up and hooted his horn and went downstairs and then to the taxi and looked back once more, and she’d gotten out of bed and came to the window. We both waved and that was our farwell to one another, we both knew it.
My father lived on for a further 17 years until ninety and equally went to see him. He gave me all his Lancashire poetry books that he loved, treasured and read. I hugged and kissed him as I was at the window on the train and he stood on the platform and the train pulled us apart; we then waved to one another, also knowing that it was final.
My brother and his death last year was a different matter. I phone my siblings on each of their birthdays and Christmas. He smoked heavily all his adult life, but somehow managed to live to 8o. His daughter was with him at his side as he died. It often occured to me to help him stop smoking, but realized it was his pain killer and that was his wish to keep it. I have no regrets about his passing, after crying the first two day after his death. He was the first of the four of us to die.
Who goes next we none of us know. My little sister who now suffers mild Parkinsons is perhaps the next one to go and she is in a retirement home that she likes, so she tells me. She did get a divorce from her husband, but has two daughters that she regularly visits in another town some 100 miles away.
My olderst sister that I am least close to lives with her husband and he is older than me and seemingly both growing old somewhat gracefully. Other than my own dementia, no other family member suffer from it. My memory is not what it used to be.
My Jimbo: that’s somewhat more complicatesd. I hope I’ve learned enough to let him do things his own way and those things that still reamin an irritant to me I am able to resolve alone out his sight and presence. My only worry is, that for his own good reasons if I am to go first he will do all in his power to keep me alive … mainly for his own reasons. That’s a discussion that for now he’s reluctant to have. I hope, sooner or later. we can have it.
As for me with the inevitable death; fine so far, but when the end is nigh I just hope to be left alone to do it my way and providing that I am not a nuisance to anyone one else, that is all I care about at the is stage. I can accept death and have no illusions that there is anything of an afterlife. I got a good deal, thanks to a decent mother and a very lovely granny. I was lucky. the only sad thing was I did not have the daddy I needed and wanted.
One final note: I got a very good deal out of my therapy and will ever be greatful to Arthur Janov and the Institute, especially my favorite therapist Vivian. To quote Art:- “Live and let live”; and even ‘let die ones own way’. The remaining sadness is the prolific neurois of mankind. Sader than sad.
WARNING. TOO MUCH ANGER TO FOLLOW. DONT READ IF YOU DONT LIKE MY ANGER AND THE C-WORD, AND THE F-WORD.. JOINT SESSION WITH BB, AND I REALLY NEED TO SHOUT THIS OUT, WHETHER IT IS AN OLD FEELING OR MY PRESENT REALITY, I AM PRETTY SURE BOTH. I EMAILED THIS TO BB JUST NOW: “Thanks for taking the time with us. I am sorry I don’t agree with you, for the most part. Whether that means I am PRIMALLY blind, I cannot accept your interpretation of our marriage at this time. We may love each other, but that doesn’t mean that much to me in the way of happiness and I feel after 40 years of misery, I need some happiness in my life.
If your vision of Z’s undying love for me, is for her to ask me to stop at Whole Foods in Sherman Oaks during rush hour for some frivolous crap when there is absolutely no parking there, instead of saying to herself, gee, I bet my poor husband is exhausted after being up 12 hours so that I can spend freely on eating out with PhdKid and my other AA mates every few days, and buy myself $400 worth of clothes so I can go to Hawaii while Hubby goes to work and comes home at lunch for 2 weeks during RUSH HOUR TRAFFIC to take care of FIGHTING BITING dogs THAT SHE WANTED, EVEN THOUGH HUBBY SAID NO.MORE PETS WAY BACK WHEN,
She only cares about herself, she only cares about everyone else and she doesn’t think a fucking thing about me at all.
I TOLD YOU HOW SHE MOVED MY COUCH FAR AWAY FROM THE TV AND COULD NOT FIGURE OUT THAT I WOULD NEED A PLACE TO SIT IN THE LIVING ROOM WITH HER, SINCE THAT IS WHAT SHE ALWAYS WANTS, SHE DOES NOT LIKE TO BE ALONE. WHEN PHDKID IS HERE, HE GETS TO SIT ON THE COMFY COUCH. WHEN HE IS NOT HERE, SHE SITS ON THE COMFY COUCH. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MAIN BREADWINNER GETTING WAITED ON, FOOT RUBBED, DINNER THAT DOES NOT TASTE LIKE SHIT cooked for him and PRESENTED TO HIM, AND ALSO GETTING TOP SPOT ON THE FUCKING COMFY COUCH???
You don’t have to be a mindreader (AS SHE CLAIMED IN THE SESSION THAT I DON’T TELL HER OF MY NEEDS) to know your husband is exhausted, and doesn’t really have any food because he wastes all his time at work and on that fucking cunt so there is no time to get groceries for himself and there is no room in the fridge because she has filled it up with so much food that it is rotting.
I don’t think we discussed how I think she doesn’t give a flying fuck about me. Sure, partially or at least 50percent old Grandma feeling. But also the absolute truth in the present.
In the car on the way home, barely 1 block away from the PI she goes,” I am going to call PHDKID and see if he wants to come over tonight.”
Ok I don’t say it to her, but that is an extra ½ hour of fighting traffic to get him. Thank god he could not come.
But the point is, she was THINKING ABOUT HIM! WAS SHE READING HIS MIND? WHAT??????
SHE IS A FUCKING ASSHOLE AND ARGUED ALL THE WAY HOME AFTER I SAID I HAD WANTED TO GO TO RALPHS FOR MYSELF, AND NOT WHOLE FOODS FOR HER AND THEN I GOT TOO DEPRESSED ONCE AGAIN BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT REALLY THINK A FUCKING THING ABOUT ME AT ALL, SHE ONLY THINKS ABOUT WHAT SHE WANTS OR NEEDS, SO I DIDN’T FEEL LIKE I DESERVED TO GET ANYTHING FOR MYSELF SO I DIDN’T STOP AND SO NOW SHE SAYS SHE WANTED TO GET HER CRAP AT RALPHS AND ARGUES ALL THE WAY HOME BECAUSE I DID NOT STOP.
MY LIFE WJLL BEGIN, WHEN I CAN FIND A WAY TO GET AWAY FROM THAT NEEDY FUCKING SELF-CENTERED CUNT BEFORE I DIE.
SHE WONDERS WHY I BLOW UP, WHICH I EVENTUALLY DID. NOTHING THAT I TELL HER OF LOGIC OR HOW I FEEL GETS PAST THE EARDRUMS, OR IT GETS DISTORTED IN HER BRAIN. SHE WONT BACK DOWN AND STOP, SHE JUST KEEPS GOING SAYING CRAZIER AND CRAZIER STUFF. FUCK HER.
SHE MAY THINK SHE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT ME, BUT HER ACTIONS SAY DIFFERENT. AND SHE EXPECTS ME TO GIVE MY MONEY FOR ANOTHER JOINT SESSION “WHEN SHE GETS BACK FROM HAWAII”. WHAT A FUCKING CUNT!
CAN OTTO BUY SOME FUCKING SHOES OR DOES THAT BITCH EXPECT ME TO WEAR THEM ANOTHER 6 FUCKING MONTHS, SO SHE CAN BUY MORE CLOTHES.”
HA! NOT HA!
It is none of my business but I think it is good that you can express your resentment and dissatisfaction at home life and be direct to your therapist about it. Hope your sessions are helpful in showing you how to make things better for you.
I like that you don’t mince words. Take care. (Buy some good stuff at Ralph’s for yourself.)
I guess the trick would be to get her to see what you want and need and then have her do it. Probably not easy, form what I’m hearing.
Guru, My guess is that your dad knows very well how you will respond to his comments about being a weed and that he very much appreciates your ” usual” response. In other words maybe what you are telling him about his worth is exactly what he needs to hear at that moment. So no I would not change the way in which you respond as I’m pretty sure your instincts are accurate when it comes to your dad. I think he is very lucky to have your support. I would guess he knows that too. Gretch
For me this discussion is about empathy. I too went through all this very painful and conflicted process with my mom – the mental and physical deterioration, the nursing home, and finally her death. My dad was active and alert to his last day. After complaining of pain he was in the hospital for a few days, diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and sent home with pain killers as there was nothing to do. The night he came back from the hospital he died in his sleep. He was 88 as was my mom on her dying day.
By empathy I mean that at times it’s hard to put ourselves in somebody else’s shoes, especially when those shoes are hurting. The other day a woman friend of mine told me how funny but also upset she felt after a man tried to help her with directions when she was parking. “He wouldn’t have done it if you were the one to drive”, she said. As a man I never had to feel sexism, never that feeling a woman has when walking alone, feeling like easy prey. Or being marginalized because you’re old, or being devaluated because you’re black, or silently ridiculed because you’re fat.
I would guess these experiences add up over years to some sort of social trauma which is not exactly like the trauma we are more familiar with but still something which inhabits the psyche and does something to a person. Loosing one’s home is a tragedy, even if that is the right thing to do, a tragedy that in the beginning happens every minute again and again. And the same goes for getting old and feeling marginalized.
I remember one day coming to supervision. My supervisor’s clinic was off a very busy and fashionable avenue which I haven’t visited in a very long time. As I was walking down the avenue I was a bit intoxicated with all the sounds, colors, busting cafés, beautiful young women walking, smiling and talking. As I entered my supervisor’s office I couldn’t help mentioning that and added that none of the women were looking at me. My supervisor, the sensitive and smart man that he was, said to me: “The fighter who nobody calls into the ring anymore, although he’s a fighter still”.
In my book that is empathy.
Great post to read Daniel! I loved “Its hard to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes, especially when those shoes are hurting” – brilliant.
Funny thing – just yesterday walking along a street, twice I wanted to “help out” with people parking – just because I could see so well, and have definitely been there as I tentatively reverse. One driver was male and 1 female. Well, I definitely wasn’t going to
“aid” the man as knew it would so easily be seen as judgement, ridicule &/or emasculation. The woman too, I knew that by the time I hoped to establish that she was doing fine and actually had more space she could well freeze from embarrassment, overcompensate &/or not appreciate my input. So, I continued on – looking like I didn’t care at all, and they struggled to success themselves.
The new cars with virtual help are eliminating all these attempts on both the driver and observer parts aren’t they…
On a lighter note:
This is from the 1980’s. It wasn’t big in the US but is wonderful and relevant.
I’m feeling shocked, saddened and bemused today that my country has decided to leave the European Union. I guess I must live in a left wing bubble. I don’t actually know a single person who would have voted for Brexit. What saddens me is I feel my country has voted to reject unity, cooperation and togetherness. Emotionally, that’s what I feel is at the bottom of it for me. To my knowledge, Europe has had the longest period of peace since before the Roman conquest and the EU was/has been a big part of that. Surely that is something to feel proud of and to want to sustain. Instead, “Little Britain” mentality, what seems to me like a willful embracing of ignorance has won the day.. Now we can all wave our little Union Jacks while we sail off into the middle of the Atlantic. Whoopee…
What next I wonder. President Trump?
I am surprised about the results; I thought stay would win in a close vote. What do you think is the main reason for this, Immigration issues? .I can’t see this as a good thing for Europe, Britain, or the world.
I heard on the news a summary analysis that the older, blue collar generation voted to leave, and the younger, university educated generation voted to stay. Also the vote to leave was a vote to control immigration and a vote for national pride. An analyst’s impression is that it was a vote driven more by emotion and less by being informed..
From last minute polls it was looking like Remain was going to edge it. Yes, I’m convinced immigration was the main issue. Geographically, the eastern and southern coastal areas of England voted to leave, in the main. In other words, the areas that would have the biggest influx of refugees. Scotland voted to stay. And yes, there was a clear dividing line between young and old, with the vast majority of young people voting Remain. They wouldn’t have wanted their freedom of movement throughout Europe curtailed, versus older people for whom that would be not such an issue. That would be my interpretation.
I agree Phil, I don’t see it as a good thing for any of us.
Correction: I just saw the voting map for England and apart from a few metropolitan areas, the vast majority of the country voted to leave… I’m still sure that immigration was the main issue though. “Control”, is the buzzword I kept hearing from the Leave camp. Control of our borders, control of our finances. Don’t want Brussels (or should that be mummy and daddy…?) telling us what to do.
Correction to my correction 🙂 Leave won the vote in the vast majority of areas in England.
Big mistake bringing that up for a vote. Now the whole country is acting out. Next thing could be UK breakup. Over here we’re all stuck with each other, for better or worse.
> despite mum muttering and moaning while one on one with her in the room, she has a good time when being with others and doing stuff or being in the cafeteria or garden.
> we talked with the caretakers and exchanged a lot of information, also about inviting friendly usually works with our mom when ‘must’ should never be used, obvious but sometimes forgotten by some people.
> and yes, she did join the group meal right after, and I heard her having a good time chatting and laughing, and I heard she had a good time the day before joining some singing and dancing there with her boyfriend who happened to just visit at that time.
> we took her to the cafeteria with her neighbor lady and then to the garden, and when we returned to her floor, they were all in the dining room preparing bread to make toast each to their own liking, for their own meal, and our mom immediately joined in and we could leave without drama.
> it was funny when we were in the garden with Niske, her neighbor lady, and my mom muttered she could never get used to living in a place like this, speaking as if she did not have to as she would not dream of even coming into that position, and I smiled and said she was actually already in the middle of adjusting, and Niske laughed and said that was really so true, she really is.
> we do tell our mom the truth repeatedly in gentle ways, to refresh her memory she was not put there but chose to come there herself, and do so repeatedly as to help her gradually to learn to assimilate it, but at some point it tends to become a loop and then it is the moment to distract and change the subject to something pleasant, or doing stuff with her which takes her immediately out of her loop that would otherwise only become more negative instead of a way of processing and adjusting.
> also from the viewpoint of occasionally ‘needing help person due to my disability, it is a fine line between not patronizing or stereotyping people and offering help when useful and welcome.
> I always tell people you can never do anything wrong by asking a person if they need help.
> if not they will say no, if welcome they will be very relieved at last someone asks, as as a blind person it is sometimes very hard to detect who is there and who would be willing to help, and it gets very painful to keep stumbling about or searching in vain and being lost and no one bothering to offer help.
> so in case of doubt, please just ask if you can help, the reaction should always be a smile, whether it is yes or no, with a thank you , apart from the occasional frustrated moron who might snap anyway…
> we feel so relieved our mom is well looked after and getting into the routines there and socializing more, and having good times, too bad she does not remember them afterwards but she certainly does have them.
> we will put a white board on her room with some information for her about when she can expect visits etc. we got the activity program for next week, there is so much to do but of course it is also up to her to want to give things a try.
> we asked the staff to keep trying as she is still somewhat in a fase of rebellious defense occasionally, but certainly changing every day, and they promised not to give up but to keep inviting her.
> my brother is also more at ease now, and also reassured by everyone confirming she should not live alone anymore, even with some help it would soon become a very big problem.
> and there she starts having a social life that is actually quite good already.
> Niske, her neighbor lady, is really very good as they enjoy each others company and make each other laugh.
> ha, sigh with relief this time, sure there will still be plenty of hard moment but at least we know she is able to adjust gradually and connect.
On the question of the British exit from the EU; that has personal implications for Jim and I. So I’m biased. Our initial plan needs to be now be re-thought.
Looking at it from an overall perspective, I see it as a backward step. We humans on the one and only planet that we’ve ever be able to inhabit, ought to learn to live together. The difference between us are minor. The planet belongs to all of us (all creatures). We are the only creature divvying it up into ‘my bit and your bit’.
Might there be a way to brings at least us humans together. My take has long been to eliminate that, that actually creates the “us and them”. The real sadness (for me) is that debilitating disease that Sigmund Freud coined, then the genius (yes GENIUS) of Janov defined … ‘opened the gate’.
Hence, I feel the BIGGEST myth is “Civilization” which I find is anything but ‘civil’
And yes … I am part of the problem!!!!
To get our facts and terminology right, neurosis was neither coined by Freud nor defined by Janov. It was fist introduced to the medical scene by a Scottish doctor in the middle of the 18th century.
During the 19th century it became a diagnosis for all those conditions where there were symptoms but no signs, meaning there weren’t to be found any real changes in tissues of the body. They were held to be illnesses of the nervous system.
Since Freud’s discovery that one particular neurosis (Hysteria) was a disorder of the mind alone, it has been used to describe precisely those mental disorders that are not diseases of the nervous system.
Freud and Janov have each a THEORY as to what brings it about, what causes neurosis.
As a matter of fact, Janov took Freud’s first theory on the neuroses (neurosis as a result of trauma, the affects of which are blocked from being expressed) and extended and updated it. He sort of continued where Freud stopped developing this line of thinking turning to fantasy.
I’m exhausted. getting up in 6 hours to go to work. Z being “nice” for some reason. dont care. tired. the germans will just have to carry the poor members of the union by themselves.
> just an observation, not a criticism, and probably originated by my own feelings on the subject, Daniel.
> you mentioned all the nice ‘young’ women and feeling bad about them not even looking at you which made you feelsomewhat bad.
> my actual course of evolutionary psychology mentions among a thousand other things the male inclination to focus mainly on the females still having as much procreative capacity as possible, so the young with other words.
> not much fun for the single women beyond that stage of course…
> it is funny it was being part of that comment that’s all.
> not counting, being actively ignored, or even rejected, not liked, fear of even being ‘despised’, feeling disposable, all parts of my old stuff..
> so yeah, a bit of a sore spot was touched I guess.
Yes, Margaret, I hear you. Now that I’ve long passed into that “Oh thank you ma’am, have a nice day, would you like to have some help with those packages?” instead of the “thank you miss, you have a good day” topped off with a wink of younger days. It is an adjustment when we still feel like young women in our minds to realize we are no longer the prize anymore in young men’s minds. Oh well, there are always the old men who remember what we were like and still see us as girls.
Have a good day (wink.)
M, in a way your point was mine as well. It was about the losses age brings with it.
Daniel and Margaret: both your comment brought up something I have been meaning to do for sometime as I stated in a comment I made the other day. This afternoon Jim and I were sitting on the patio in the shade. I said that I had written on the blog, there was conversation I had not had out with him, I started to say if and when my end was near, there are four things I would like from him.
It went something like this:- 1) To let me go in my own good way and time and not try to keep me alive and not put out lots of money. 2) If I am suffering to use the minimal dosage of pain killers. 3) If I was beginning to become a nuisance to just try and prevent it by keeping me away from others. Lastly 4)To not put himself out, such that it was becoming too hard for him to look after me
We were not able to get any real consensus, but at least I have now said it and repeated it to make sure he got clearly what I wished for. He counter claimed; it was not that easy and I agreed … but hoped he now knew what I was currently thinking. He also said that when that time happens, I might have changed my mind and I responded by saying that all he needs, is to ask me, if I were able to tell him. He did not offer anything should the position be in reversed
This is exactly were I find this blog useful.
> hm, that was me, not Phil, smiley..
> one time it was funny, when I was walking the street a couple of years ago, two young guys, probably not even twenty, walked behind me.
> It was summer and I think I wore a top and a skirt, and suddenly one of them speeded up to pass me and glanced at me while doing so, then let himself fall back to join his mates, and I heard him say with some sheepish disappointment ‘she is old!’, which of course made the others tease him.
> I found it somewhat flattering, that from behind at least I could still raise his interest, haha!!
> dancing the tango also helps as most men there are charming even while of course young women are top of the bill, the oldies that can dance also get on the floor quite a bit.
> it is a while since I went, but well, feel like giving myself a bit of a rest right now..
> should do so again soon though..
> boy my cats are racing around like crazy chasing each other for a piece of bark, they get that out of the plant pots as it covers the soil to keep it moist, and for some reason treat it like it is the yummiest fattest mouse ever which they both want.
> I find those pieces of bark everywhere, yesterday even in my bed, haha, they race with a lot of scratching of nails on the floor, big leaps over the couches and clattering of cat doors forth and back…
> and they make funny prrr and mmmoww sounds while doing so..
> cat games, love them..
Ouch, yeah, painful to know we are has-beens, and a reminder of what we as youths valued so much, a young pretty face.
I have 3 feral kittens 9 weeks old I’ve been taming the last couple of weeks and they are very rambunctious. Getting so attached to them and don’t know how I will give them away or to who.
My dog is so jealous of them. Saved them from a life of wild where if they were hurt no one could catch and help them. Guess I will just enjoy and protect them and figure it out day by day.
I used to give away kittens often, as farmers wanted them for mousers. But now, getting so close to these little guys it will be hard. They already have distinct personalities.
I went to the PI today to have another cry. While I was waiting outside, a young woman walked by to get into her parked car, and smiled briefly at me. I know that some voodoo doctor sent her there, to look at me at that exact moment. She was a good trigger for me to cry over losing my 5 years of happiness as a kid in Hollywood. Happiness including my 3rd grade girlfriend and my aunt and uncle and all the places in the house, and places in my aunt and uncle’s hotel and the streets and buildings on Western and Sunset Boulevards, my elementary school, the Boy’s club. Yes I have talked about this before. It is so big I can’t finish it. What a blow to leave that happiness, even if I was alone with tv and my comic books some of the time. Funny the crying started with me remembering my honeymoon with Z. We went up to San Francisco and stayed with her sister a few days. We were going to get jobs up there and get therapy up there. My favorite memory of her was of her rolling some joints on her sister’s dining room table. We were young, and maybe in love, but most of all, we were young and hopeful and together. Now, I don’t know who we are anymore. Second thing I cried about was my mom’s sister, who was supposed to watch over me and my brother when we moved away from Hollywood. I could see her sitting on the beach and all the sights of that beach came back to me. Then cry cry cry about losing Hollywood. No way possible to put words down on paper. Still not done with this feeling. Walking-by young woman helped stoke the flames of the feeling but I was pretty much there, but there are always those good big triggers that we love to have come our way. She was my mom, my 3rd grade girlfriend, every person I lost, who I was seeing as I cried. She was Hollywood itself. She was every unattainable woman that I have ever seen. Thanks voodoo doctor. Anyway here is my new favorite video on youtube. Very clever opening with the dysfunctional family, the mom and dad and brother and sister about to eat a meal, saying grace, then a little snappy song. DIE ANTWOORD – BABY’S ON FIRE (OFFICIAL).
My take on some current theories of evolutionary psychology: men dont chase young women because young women are healthy enough to procreate. My feeling is that mother nature has programmed something into the male brain to go after the young and fresh and flashy, that sends the testosterone a-soaring. Mother nature wants us to procreate, I really don’t think that is the thing that is on a man’s mind very much. I am saying that what kicks off the senses, like flowers to a bee, and red butts to a monkey, and on and on, is nature’s trick. As Margaret said, the young men saw her cute clothes, and got interested. I don’t think they had any intention of making babies. I do feel sorry that women feel compelled to turn themselves inside out by not eating or by wearing painful shoes, to attain a certain standard of beauty to attract men, and the assholes who propagate such behaviors–fashion-people. For most straight men, the lines of a woman’s hips is all it takes. Maybe. I cant speak for all straight men. ah, just had to say something that has been on my mind a while about the procreation thing.
One of my favorite comedians (i did not know he had died, damn) expounds on men and women and sex. Patrice O’Neal – The Value of Vagina [UNCENSORED]. probably not to everyone’s liking but i guess the women in the audience appear to be having fun.
We’ve had a lot of talk about old people, parents, and putting them in nursing homes to be taken care of etc, because of what Margaret is going through with her mother.
Some feelings today about my father about how I was already taking care of him somehow, and he wasn’t that old or needing it. It became my role to entertain him and keep him company
and I have a lot of feelings about that, as my needs from him were not met.
I didn’t want to be stuck with him in this role. I can’t say that we ever had a good adult relationship at least partly for this reason.
In my father’s case, his aorta ruptured at age 72 and he was dead, just like that. Probably a good way to go if you have to. There was not much debilitation or going to a nursing home etc. I don’t think I would have dealt with that well at all. I did go through a whole lot of grief and crying for many days when he passed away and I’m no doubt still not done with it.
Everly Brothers – Love Hurts one of my favorites.
> hope your dog won’t harm them if he/she is that jealous, at some point they will be big enough of course to stand up for themselves, although some dogs seem to turn out to real cat killers.
> I feel confident though you would not let such a thing happen..
> I heard you.
> don’t know what to say, but it sounds like a lot of pain and unmet need to be dealt with.
> glad you did manage to make yourself a good family in the present.
> mom is starting to sound more cheerful even while today she was supposed to go on a hike but said her boyfriend did not show up, despite her being ‘home’ all the time.
> it is pouring rain and she did not seem to mind.
> she starts asking more about us again, and about the cats, and even laughed out loud at some point during our conversation.
> that feels good.
> of course all worrying is not completely over, but the stress is certainly diminishing.
> there remains some feeling of nostalgic goodbye somehow, guess it is the house and everything that goes with it.
> going ‘home’ will soon be impossible and already now it is depressing to come there while the heating is off and things start being taken away..
> she does find it ok to select by photographs so that is good.
> will go there on tuesday and actually look forward to it, with my halfsister it is fairly easy as she is very patient and mom listens to her and lets her take care of things.
> but I am aware of even in the adjusting of mom, and in her having nice moments there, still a feeling of goodbye remains.
> I hope we can still have plenty of nice moments with her.
Margaret, my little dog most likely would not hurt the kitties as he is gentle with my older cat. He just wants to be part of the action and play with them. They are very reactive, still half wild, quick to hiss and fight–so he might be clawed in eye. I’m keeping them apart for now. Isn’t there such a difference between puppies and kittens; pups are friendly and trusting while kittens are easily frightened and spooked. I guess scientifically kitties act more from the brainstem rather than the emotional part that brain that puppies act from. Just an observation.
I think you have made quite an accomplishment with your mom getting her accepting of her new home. My mom may have forgotten much of the present but she remembered things from long ago in her childhood and never lost her basic personality.
It’s good that you have your half-sister to help. To have someone a little more objective and not so close as you to your mom (as so it sounds) to help make decisions and be supportive. Families are ‘where it’s at’ as the saying goes. Take care. Have a nice evening.
Sorry of this is a little off-topic, but this excellent article I am linking below demonstrates that science and the world in general are coming around to seeing the theories behind Primal Therapy.
LesB: I wonder if you are Leslie and Barry … whomever.!!! That science and in particular the medical profession are finally beginning to see that all this was delineated almost 50 years ago.
What it really adds up to, as I see it is, that the Medical and Scientific professions are behind the times (the curve). They needn’t be wasting their time if it were not for their BIG egos that ‘only they know best’ mentality.
Most really progressive thoughts (all down time) emanated from accidental discoveries. However most professionals having spend years doing their linear thinking are VERY RELUCTANT to consider anything that does not conform to their pre-conceived notions. What is somewhat discouraging is that the studying of psychology is still STUCK in the Freudian paradigm.
Primal Theory is so, so simple. That is not to say that the practice of Primal therapy is simple. It’s not, and requires that one has seen beyond their own “left brain thinking” and felt what it felt like being a vulnerable baby, or even greater, felt what it felt like inside the womb.
Unless and until this whole other way of being is realized, I fear that the human race is due for self extinction, and sooner than I feel is currently imagined. Sadder by far than sad.
LesB is a whole entity unto himself – not Leslie & Barry just so you know.
I feel like he may be the Les from long ago who was with a lovely woman who adored mejool figs – I think it was:). ??
I too liked reading the article – a little wordy but some good things to think about.
Leslie: Thanks for the correction. I don’t think I knew LesB.
I thought the article was way too long winded. BUT then my thing is to make things simple. If they are not simple then there’s something amiss. That’s was what I felt was brilliant about Janov. The whole medical science thing means one has to practically have “a PhD in Rocket Science” to even get ones mind around it.
We human have a knack of making things complex cos it makes us look smart … which we ain’t.
I’ve long contended that ‘Learning’ is simple…. it’s ‘teaching’ that is complex and convoluted. If only we could let children … and others learn (come to it themselves) … instead of trying to tell them (teach them) we’d make life way more pleasant for both ourselves and one another. Primal Therapy “modus operandi”
But then that’s just MY thing…. Duh!!!
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘progressive thoughts’ but in science most paradigm shifts were not accidental discoveries. In the natural sciences the major changes in our world views, those we associate with Copernicus, Newton, Lavoisier and Einstein (perhaps we can include Darwin as well), did not emanate from accidents but from keen minds observing and developing theories.
One can think of such changes also in the social sciences (Keynes in Economics for example). In the history of depth psychology the paradigm shift, the change in our world view, is Freud’s. Others after him have contributed and added, sometimes brilliantly, to the whole of our knowledge about the human mind and the determinants of human thought, feeling and behavior. But the shifts they offered, if any, were minor in comparison and didn’t change the way we view the world.
However, the study of psychology is not, as you claim, “stuck” on Freud nor has it ever been. On the contrary, academic psychology and psychiatry hate Freud and psychoanalysis. If you walked into any major university in the US you would need a magnifying glass or even a microscope to find any traces of Freud in the departments of psychology or medicine. But you will find quite a bit of Freud in the departments of anthropology, literature, philosophy, theater and cinema, or gender studies.
I finished reading Janov’s comments on Freud in his blog. As I read them I realized I had looked at them previously. I was searching for a good quote from Janov which would some up his views on psychoanalysis. I found this one which may not be the best:
“Psychoanalysts fear Pain also because they do know what to do with it, and do not see that there is any permanent way to relieve it. We might all agree that neurosis starts with repression; we might agree that repression is necessary because we could not bear to fully experience something at the time it occurred and thereafter. Yet psychoanalysts cannot see that reliving the trauma — or actually living it fully for the first time — would in itself resolve the neurosis. Feelings and neurosis cannot co-exist. Concepts and neurosis can.”
Early in his career Freud was on the right track but abandoned it. It seems he decided that the unconscious mind was full of dangerous impulses and instincts that shouldn’t be explored or unleashed. Freud’s thinking represented a major shift in world view but so much of it has been discredited. Janov’s therapy and theory should represent a major shift in thinking and practice even if it hasn’t caught on, and is not entirely original. The important point is he seems to he gotten it right, where so much of Freud is wrong.
Daniel: I’m inclined to agree with Phil here, BUT … I will elaborate it on his point
I’ll take just four: Medicine, Releitivity theory, Economics and Psychology.
Medical science:- is forever, seeking to fix the malady BUT totally unable to see, or seek cause. Seemingly, we find a fix for one malady only to discover that, that fix causes another one (side effects). It’s fuckin madness
Relativity theory:- Geesus Kristopholus!!! all those little bit of stuff called atoms, have so much energy in the them. The culmination being “The Bomb” … the other big bang. More than fuckin madness
Economics:- The STUDY of money flow. We invent this superficial fix AGAINST the other guy; only now, to find a fix for that stuff we invented. Economics is about as useful (or useless) as the study of the pedestrian flow in any given city. Even more madness
Psychology:- Until the advent of “Primal” we have only “Analysis” (experts telling us what’s wrong with us) or. worse still “Behaviorism” a la Pavlov/Skinner. Neither; fixing anything for us peons, other that the pockets of psychiatrists and psychologist. Even Primal is merely trying to fix as much of the damge as is desirable or amenable as was CREATED in our child rearing practices. All we need is to STOP NOW, the damage in the next generation … BUT we won’t. The maddest of them tham all
If we think about it; all the other creatures don’t run schools, universities, governments, give away degrees (that are now becoming useless; least-ways for making a living). You may argue the hierarchy notion, but that’s another human (neurotic) construct.
That poor guy, Stephen Hawking is a case in point. Time and space are human constructs. And I for one, totally disagree with his “Big Bang theory”. From whence did the matter causing the ‘Bang’ occur??? Seems we humans are running round in circles; about to disappear up our own ass (arse) holes. He, Stephen is SO into his head, he lost his body and I don’t think that is an unfortunate accident.
We are for ever “Pondering” if there might be another intelligent creature out there. Why the search … and what the fuck is it likely to do for us? Call it ‘curiosity’ if you you like. Not sure even that did anything to enhance the living of our lives. It could be further argued that had Janov not pondered Danny’s scream there would be not Primal therapy. Primal Theory/therapy is an outgrowth of our original neurosis. Had that not occurred (neurosis) there’d be a great life for most all of us (and I mean all creatures) to live a fully feeling lives without all this complicated civilization we’ve wrapped ourselves in. It’s a fucking mess. BUT, not able to admit it OR, even if we do, then we only tweak it a bit here and there, and hope for the moment we’ve fixed it … only to realize later we need another fix And on and on and on…………. ad infinitum
The very essence of madness.
If I understand you correctly you would prefer the world before the agricultural revolution. You’re not alone. Some historians say as much.
Perhaps you’re right, but these are the cards we have been dealt, the only deck we can play with.
Daniel: a wrong assumption. I would like to live in the world that existed before we humans became NEUROTIC … which is a whole other period in time.
Put another way; I want to get back my REAL SELF … my real Nature . Janov IMO found that way … and I will pursue it until my demise.
LesB: I liked your article and the acknowledgment that “One of the paradoxical necessities of the recovery process is the need to revisit the trauma without becoming so overwhelmed by sensations as to be re-traumatized.” Also there’s the noting of attachment theory of “attunement between mother and infant that lays the foundation for the child’s sense of self later in life.” The mother should meet the impulses and needs of the baby. And I think that starts even earlier with a good gestation period, a stress-free healthy and wanted pregnancy.
I’m glad that these other therapies are progressing toward this healing. So many people need it.
> mm, kittens can be very cuddly too, I guess it depends of their early experiences with humans etc.
> and of course there are differences, dogs being more of a group species while a lot of felines are loners, but not all of them.
> I also read recently kittens each have their own nipple to suckle on , the top kitten, the strongest has the best one, forgot if that is more at the top of bottom of mommy cat, and they have their personal scent on it as a marker.
> puppies though are just struggling every time to get a good one, their ranking struggle already starting right there, so in a videotaped case where a tiny puppy was put to suckle together with a bunch of kittens who had a well fed cat mommy, you could see one kitten standing there looking at the puppy with indignation as it was suckling his or her personal nipple..
> poor little kitten, hope it got its favorite spot back soon!
> maybe cats and other felines are more easily spooked as they usually do not live in groups and therefor have to be more careful, don’t know.
> that aspect makes my protective instincts flare up all the more, love dogs too but cats are still somewhat favorite,, and well, kittens and puppies are all hard to resist, isn’t it?
> hope your doggy makes friends soon with the little newcomers and learns to play with them gently..
> hope keeping them apart won’t make him more jealous still, what is his name, or her name?
Margaret, his name is Mack, a little guy. I feel like his mommy, and am glad I can guess what he is thinking and wants. He is getting on in years.
One of the kittens had an eye infection and I had to take him away from his mom earlier than the others to treat it at five weeks. I felt like I had to be his mom and be attuned to his little wants and fears. I think he felt safe with me. Of all the cats I’ve raised I never felt so in-tuned to their little needs. I can only attribute that empathy to therapy and being in touch with myself.
> I did check out the link to the article, Les, but ran into a window requesting to sign up and pay, if I did not it seemed impossible to read the piece.
> I did not, do not like to sign up for unknown sites let alone immediately give a contribution..
> maybe there was a way to read it but could not find it.
> mom is definitely cheering up some of the time.
> I gave her another call after her dinner to ask her whether she had joined the board games that afternoon.
> she said she had not been asked, and when I replied she might have joined them and not know it anymore, she laughed and said that was possible, but that I should not ask her stupid questions..
> I laughed and said hey wait a minute, sometimes you do know!
> I told her I’d come tomorrow anyway and find out then, and she asked oh yeah, how will you do that?
> I said, well, I will ask someone who works there and find out for example.
> she laughed again and was really very lighthearted, and I told her she sounded very good.
> she said she was ok, and when I told her she could watch television she said yeah yeah I do, still cheerful, it was a pleasure to hear her like that.
> of course she is not like this all the time, sometimes feels bored and more down, but every day the moments she sounds fine are increasing.
> we really hope she starts participating more and more with the large number of activities offered there.
> we are now sure enough it was the right decision as to tell her landlord the rent will stop. it will have to go on for three months anyway, three months notice, so we have plenty of time to take care of all the stuff and keep apart and store what she wants to keep for when she has a larger room.
> we are cautiously optimistic now..
I think that talking about these matters in terms of right and wrong is not fruitful. This is not exact science and in a way all these thinkers are right. I mean, no theory can encompass the entire human experience and we can, and perhaps even need to, look at the human psyche from various angles.
Janov’s work helps us to “see” repressed pain like no other theory. Melanie Klein’s theories helps us to see aspects of fragmentation and integration of the personality better than any other. Lacan’s Real, Imaginary and Symbolic adds, from another angle, something to our understanding of human beings and of listening to them. Freud topographic model is the best way for us to conceptualize repression – how a repressed idea gathers other repressed ideas into mental clusters and how it returns this idea to consciousness. Freud also helps us to conceptualize mental intensities.
In other words, theories are forms of perception and operate like sense organs where what you can hear with your ears is different from what you can smell with your nose or see with your eyes. Each theory may help us “see” what we couldn’t see before we were introduced to it.
This is just a plea for a measure of plurality.
Most of us lean toward this or that theory, one that matches our personal experience and temperament, but as we learn other theories some of them enter our mind and become part of our perceptive unconscious. So, different people or different moments with the same person may conjure up in the mind different theories or ideas that might help us to better understand aspects of that particular person or that particular moment. (I’m limiting myself here to theories of depth psychology only because that is what we’re interested in).
One last word about Freud. His theories and writings are so vast, their implications so far-reaching, so innovative, so well written, so open to interpretation and reinterpretation and therefore so mind-expanding, that it has become an integral part of our intellectual tradition, and I think it will remain so for many years to come.
I agree with you in that these are theories and remain so until proven, which is difficult with psychology. Of course my comments and opinions reflect my experiences and that is one big reason why I would lean toward a particular theory.
If a better theory was formulated in accordance with what I and others experience in primal therapy, then I would lean toward that one. I have little personal experience with other therapies but I’m thinking that if they don’t get to the root of my traumas then they are limited and their corresponding theories faulty in that regard. I’m less interested in theoretical aspects of psychology that don’t have practical applications of some kind.
But if psychology is to become an actual science then some theories are right, or better describe reality than others. They all can’t be right, but I’ll agree that aspects of various theories, might hold some truth.
I very much agree with you Phil. If the therapy doesn’t unearth traumas and resolve them what good is it unless you just are interested in a coping function and just a therapy that will patch you up. Janov’s theory and therapy doesn’t need to be open to re-interpretation; it’s all out there well-defined. Feel the pain; get better, rather than live in your head and make yourself think you are better.
With his sixteen books written it looks like Janov has laid out a pretty good plan for learning to get well, love again, and reduce our susceptibility to disease by visiting the three areas of the brain where traumas were laid down, the adult brain, the child brain, and the baby brain of sensations. Some of us have most likely read there is concrete evidence now of changes in vital signs to more normal, more killer cells to fight disease and cancer, less anxiety that is reflected in brainwave patterns of primal patients. It seems simple to me–feel the trauma in bits and get well. I’m for it.
Daniel: I couldn’t disagree with you more strongly.
Quote:- “This is just a plea for a measure of plurality.”
Plead all you like. Janov states that all this pleading is just “head tripping” He found quite a whole other paradigm … never thought of before, in the history of mankind. However I feel, like another blogger on this site, you fail to catch on to the very essence of his (Janov’s) message.
Another quote:- “…….and therefore so mind-expanding, that it has become an integral part of our intellectual tradition,”
According to Janov and I am in TOTAL agreement with his notion here. That what you are saying; IS:- THE HUMAN PROBLEM.
We neurotics, are into the ‘left lobe’; little realizing, until his findings, there was a very neglected part of our brain causing a very debilitating DISEASE. He defined it. Freud merely coined it … implicating little or nothing for the human condition.
P. S. What purpose, for you does being on this blog serve? and I am being serious.
Jack, just a reminder that Janov spoke also about “feeling tripping” (abreaction). That means that, to use your language, both our lobes can play games with us. And speaking of lobes, what do you suggest we do with our left one?
I’m sure you too felt, like I did, upon reading Janov for the first time some kind of mind-expansion. It’s a joy to feel that. I guess that being intellectual is considered in primal circles a no-no, but Primal theory is an intellectual endeavor not a feeling one – and besides, all feelings carry with them some ideas (“my mommy left me”, etc.), don’t they?
I think that the intellect is part of our strengths in life. Like other mental capacities we have we may use it for defensive reasons, and such maneuvers should be dealt with, but that doesn’t mean we should throw the baby with the water.
Perhaps you feel that primal theory captures and explains the human mind in its entirety. I don’t. I hope that doesn’t make me the Antichrist.
And finally, I come to this blog because its the only place where I can discuss primal ideas which have been and are an important part of my life.
Daniel. If I may intrude on your conversation with Jack, maybe if you laid out a little more of your idea of treatment for your patients, your goal of accomplishment, what improvements they have had with your way then we might be very interested. We are interested in results too.
I understand abreaction to be the release of tensions without any connection to the feeling. Sort of like an exercise–just a release of energy.
I don’t agree that Primal therapy is an intellectual rather than feeling therapy. Janov isn’t against having ideas–it’s just that ideas can come from feelings and are a product, an insight of those feelings; i.e. we know what we feel then we know what we think. Because we have felt we know why we have acted out. The intellect puts it all together; but we must have relived the original experience of our hurts of when our intellect was barely developed yet. The adult or intellect part of the brain has to give in momentarily to the earlier developed child’s brain, go back and undo, by reliving the feelings of that time.
Sylvia, I never said or meant that Primal therapy is intellectual. Far from it. But Primal theory is very much so. It can’t be otherwise. Janov didn’t just feel his way into this theory but used his intellectual capacities to explain and theorize what he found.
I’m not trying to sell anything here, especially not the the way I work, and I never claimed that my way, or Freud’s way, is better than Primal. On the contrary, as I keep repeating Primal therapy has helped me personally and has helped, I’m sure, countless others. I also admire Janov for his writings, his insistence on personal truth, and his and Vivian’s decades of commitment to depth psychology even as it grew out of fashion. I particularly admire the fact that he came to his conclusions practically by himself, not working within established traditions but outside them.
But I do think Primal theory is not all, does not encompass the entire human experience, and is not entirely new but rather a contribution to pre-existing systems of thought.
Quote:- “But I do think Primal theory is not all, does not encompass the entire human experience, and is not entirely new but rather a contribution to pre-existing systems of thought.”
It is just this last statement of yours that I take considerable exception to. You are not alone in this THINKING. As I read you you have it all in your “left lobe”. Sadly, I see no way that you will ever THINK otherwise.
If you are feeling benefits to your life I would be interesting to all of us here to read your experiences. It is one thing to talk of experiences .. it is quite something else to relate them..
What experiences are OUTSIDE of feelings??????
This blog is not a therapy for me as it is for you and perhaps others. I’m sorry if that offends you somehow, that is certainly not my intention. I’m not sure why all this has to be personally about me and my lobes rather than what I have to say.
Daniel:- No!!! it does not offend me. If it did, I would say so … I’m not shy.
If you are taking all this personally that is YOUR feeling in my book. I can do nothing about that.
If this is not therapy for you, then it would be interesting to read “What IS therapy for you????”
Therapy for me is being in a closed room with a therapist in his/her role as a therapist.
Daniel: Fine; I wish you all the best.
Thank you for your response Daniel. I’m thinking that a lot of people don’t pursue this therapy because it is so messy. There are a lot of bad days, confused days, feelings that you don’t want to feel. But in the end I think it is worth it when anxiety lessens and joy in life happens, when communication between friends is better, and in general there comes a real sense of caring about people. Any therapy that can do that is worth it.
Nice to see that Jack has a new partner for debate.
Daniel: I will answer, respond to your comment in the order you wrote them.
Quote:- “And speaking of lobes, what do you suggest we do with our left one?”
Use it for what it was originally meant to be used for”- to organised feelings and create re-actions (expressions). Thinking is the outgrowth of Neurosis.
“reading Janov for the first time some kind of mind-expansion.”
Not for me. It was a simple, and shattering revelation. Long before I read “The Primal Scream” I had an experience in a London Clinic where I re-lived my early childhood. The revelation was that re-living was a whole other “ball game” like NOTHING I’d ever experienced before, in my life.
“I guess that being intellectual is considered in primal circles a no-no,”
No that’s not my feeling. There is no way any of us can stop thinking (intellectualizing if you like). I too am a ‘prisoner’ of my early pain and the resulting fuck-up that ensued.
“all feelings carry with them some ideas (“my mommy left me”, etc.), don’t they?”
Yes. BUT that’s not the issue. That’s merely the consequence.
“I think that the intellect is part of our strengths in life”
I strongly disagree. To me, is a huge part of our fuck-up … giving us Newton, Einstein Freud et al. The fuck-up is:- we don’t live by our feelings … like all other creatures … we live by trying to figure it all out … and by the looks of things failing miserably. Why all the injustice, wars and even our inability (for the most part) to have a satisfactory romantic relationship??? … then go on to fuck-up our offsprings … just as we were.
“Perhaps you feel that primal theory captures and explains the human mind in its entirety. I don’t.”
I know you don’t and that’s the reason for my ‘banter’ with you. I am certain that I will never convince you, but I do have fun taking you on. Hopefully you too get some pleasure out of our banter.
“I come to this blog because its the only place where I can discuss primal ideas which have been and are an important part of my life.”
That is a pity I feel, since my take; this blog is for each of us to express our feelings. The good ones, the bad ones, and the downright terrifying ones. And hence recover, some of our REAL health. Granted that writing about a feeling is not necessarily having the feeling. Meantime Daniel, I wish you no ill.
You say, “Thinking is the outgrowth of Neurosis.”
Wow. That’s quite a statement and I’m sure you don’t really mean it. Without thinking we’re doomed, each and every one of us, as human beings. Those who are unable to think actually suffer the most. Think of a little baby who at the beginning, when hungry, cries. When all goes well his mother is quick to adapt to his needs and feeds him and calms him down withing minutes. As time moves on, and after many such occurrences, the baby begins think – to have images of the food, its taste and its smell – and thus gains a modicum of independence, he develops. From now on, he might hear the spoon rattling in the bottle in the kitchen and he can think to himself something like, “mmm.. food is coming”.
That is a momentous achievement because it helps him to contain frustration. Without that he would have been totally at the mercy of circumstances, a petrifying state of existence. Borderline patients, for example, are famous for not being able to think and contain their frustration so they must act it out instead. Any one of us can reach that point when under stress.
Your second and third claims (we don’t live by our feelings; trying to figure it all out is harmful) do not sit well with your examples (war, injustice, failed intimacies). All those things you’ve mentioned occur because of feelings (rage, envy, greed, fear) rather than intellect. I’ve never heard somebody who intellectually fails at intimacy, but many times somebody who emotionally fails at it. I know you’re going to say that rage and envy and greed are not the real feelings you meant, but nevertheless, these are emotional intensities rather that intellectual ones.
Finally, your wish that we “should live by our feelings… like all creatures” is particularly alarming. It harks back to your original post and your metaphor of being pricked and saying “ouch” as an ideal of being. In that metaphor you more or less eradicate human mental life and culture (which is a very high aspect of mental life). Yes, all creatures can react somehow and express their pain. It’s called a reflex ark – some kind of stimuli enters the organism and the organism reacts and emits it. Even an amoeba can do that. It requires no mental life.
But, in your scheme of things there’s no room for feeling the prick but instead of saying “ouch” – the most primitive of all reactions – to write a poem, or build a cathedral, or develop an interest in bridges or the Blues or God or psychology or what have you; to become a Newton, an Einstein or a Freud or for that matter a Carlos Santana.
That is turning your back not only on humanity but on being human.
Daniel: I read this last comment of yours very carefully.
I take you you KNOW exactly what is going on in my head. You must have studied Telepathy.
Danielle, your idea that theories are forms of perception seems like the blind men trying to imagine an elephant based on the limitations of their individual perception, one blind man forming a theory of what an elephant is based on information of the leg, another forming a theory based on his information about the trunk, etc. An all encompassing theory that replaces the separate ones is a better model of an elephant.
Johannes Kepler’s theory of planetary motion explained the movement of the planets much better and more simply than did the previous ideas that the planets all revolved around a stationary central Earth. Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation was an improvement on Kepler’s theory, and Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity was an even more all encompassing improvement over Newton. Newton said ‘If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.’
I think most of us on this blog feel that Primal Theory encompasses better than anything else all the theories that came before it that try to model and understand the human psyche. I personally don’t see a need for many theories unless we are speaking of an evolution of theories, and I feel a better one might one day come along that reveals and explains human deep psychology in an all encompassing way more than Primal Theory does. But right now, Primal Theory has for me proven over and over to be an unwaveringly true, exceptionally revealing and grounding, priceless model explaining human emotional life and consciousness.
Primal therapy is, as you say, true. However, its theory is mostly grounded in psychoanalysis while not being nearly as full as psychoanalysis is when it comes to a general theory of motivation, thinking, feeling and behaviour. It also doesn’t have a robust developmental theory.
We can discuss this in more detail but I’m not sure it’s of any interest to people here.
I think that Primal could have and should have been integrated into psychoanalysis. Both sides would have benefited.
I’ve been stuck with my feelings. And when I’m stuck, I withdraw. It’s an old defense, one that I have adopted as a child. I’ve been stuck with not knowing what to say. Not knowing what I feel. What I need. Confused. Shocked, maybe. I’ve been going back to the scene when my father threw the cat off the balcony, and we all had to keep sitting with him at the dinner table and finish eating. Seeing the little ones’ faces – absolutely terrified. Having to keep it together. Insane and surreal scene, really! I’ve been going there in my mind ever so carefully, remembering and being scared, and every time when I revisited, I’ve been feeling a bit more. Admitting how insanely scared I was of my father (as a child I had to deny it to protect myself; how could I live with a father that is a constant threat to me?) Going back to the scene and remembering the exact feeling: terror, fear, insanity! Shaking, suppressed crying, telling daddy ‘I’m afraid when you are so angry’. And then mom hugging the little ones… I couldn’t go to her for comfort. I remember a bit more of what I thought as the 10-year old girl witnessing the scene. In order to rationalize the ‘unknown or instantly repressed need’ I thought, the little ones need her more, I’m too big to get comfort, mom expects me to be big and strong. Hence the subsequent withdrawal into my bedroom, crying into the pillow all by myself, trying to cope with the fear and lack of safety all by myself. There was nobody to go to.
Fast-forward to …. the present, and my acting out: too much eating, too much sleeping, avoiding life and being confused in my head. Not knowing what I need. Desperately trying to make sense of my life and trying to figure out what’s next. Feeling nobody is on my side. My hubby and Gretchen ganging up on me in the joint sessions. Gretchen not helping me, not seeing me, not hearing me. And yesterday my first connection to anger against my mother (yehaa! That’s a big one for me, because generally I have well-defended excuses for her and want to protect her). Why didn’t she come to me? Why didn’t she see that I was suffering? That I was afraid? How could she expect of a 10-year old to cope with this on her own? She didn’t ask me, How are you holding up? Do you need a hug, little girl? You look terrified, let me protect you! Nothing. Nada. Zip!
Sooo, I’m getting a bit annoyed with her and that’s a big risk, indeed. Because she was all I had. At least she was not totally insane and violent like my dad.
Well, fuck it. I’m on my own anyway! I may as well take the risk… I’m afraid! And angry.
Bernadette, you had little sister and/or brother (s) ?
Otto, when I was 10, my little sister was 7, my brothers were 5 and 3. My older brother was 14. I don’t remember if he was present when the cat flew over the balcony. I also have three more sisters, all older, that is 7, 9 and 10 years older than me. They had already moved out of the house when this scene happened. We were 8 children all together — nice catholic family. 🙂
BTW, I read all your stuff above (since I left off). You are rocking and rolling! Keep going, getting it out, saying, screaming, sticking up for yourself, whatever you need to do!!
2 thoughts, and i am not going to be clean about the writing of these thoughts. Clean in the sense that i am too tired and what i say probably is not coherent. cant find my unreadable scrawl notecard that i wrote a few lines down while i was driving. had to do with the evoluntionary psychology thread above. something about neanderthal dna surviving in homo sapiens, and that is the only reason there are good people out there. I am postulating that the extinct neanderthals were the good folks, and went extinct because of it, but that their dna or genes or whatever, is included in modern man’s,I am saying that bad people are the norm, and any good people out there are due to the Neanderthal dna. i have no basis for this theory and i am sure i am wrong. I just like to think about things. Thinking about stuff kept me alive. There was some commercial on the radio that brought up this thought, i wish i could find my note. I was saying back to the guy talking on the radio “NO, THAT’S NOT TRUE!”. anyway, the other thought, a young lady at work gives me food from pharmacy going-away parties sometimes. This ensures that i will fix her computers at the drop of a hat. She gave me a lot of sugar stuff today and also some other carb food, and none of it was good at all, but i sat at my desk and kept cramming it down my throat. ok the thought was that since i lost my mom at 10 months, i never had a chance to learn how to eat food right. the deanderthals who took care of me for a while after i lost her probably shoved a bottle in my mouth everytime i cried, whether i was hungry or not. I know i did the same thing to my babies when i was tired and they kept crying and crying. i dont think i was mean about it. just the first thing i tried when they cried. anyway. i have no idea what i am saying. i have now crammed a bagel and cream cheese down my gullet 10pm at night, and i was not hungry at all. i was just putting catfood in the fridge, and there was the cream cheese. such a comfort food.
I love toasted bagel and strawberry jam at midnight… almost time 🙂
Just to clarify: when I said above that my hubby and Gretchen are ganging up on me, it is only that I FEEL that they are. It’s not necessarily the truth/reality. In fact, in my rational mind I know they don’t. But it feels like that when I am in my confused feeling, not knowing how to explain myself. It FEELS like Gretchen is not hearing me, not helping me. In reality, I truly think she is trying her best to understand what I’m saying in my confusion. These days I often feel like I have to defend myself or my position, I assume that I am misunderstood, and when she has questions, I take it as a criticism. I really don’t know how this dynamic came about in my confused feeling brain… yet to be figured out. I assume that I must be recreating something from the past in order to work it out in the present. And thus the neurotic mind proceeds… 🙂
Larry, my apologies for the late reply. When I disappeared from the blog it was not only by not writing, I didn’t read it either. Until today.
I agree, hope it very hard to give up. It is hope that keeps our struggle alive. And the struggle is that kept us alive in childhood. Creating an unreal “something that isn’t there” is what we needed to do in order to survive. I can see how you needed to hold on to the small possibility/hope that there was a bond between you and your parents. How very painful that this hope was shattered.
In my case, I put my father on a pedestal. I adored him. I thought he was just fabulous in so many ways. I also found compelling reasons and made up a story why he was so withdrawn, broody, not interested, angry. My little girl brain needed to explain it so that it made sense, in order to survive the monster in the house. And by creating a person that is ‘good’ there was more hope that one day he will love me. It is incredibly hard and painful to give up this illusion. Like you describe for yourself, a small crack has been opened for me now, I’m starting to see the truth. And all the hope that one day daddy will love me is falling into an ever widening abyss.
I also think that it is natural for a child to love his/her parents unconditionally. A child doesn’t have any other concept but to love, I think we are born that way. I think the child ‘knows’ what the highest and best idea of a loving parent should be like, automatically, by intuition. The child is capable of bonding, just like that; it is devastating that the ability is not reciprocated by the parents. That’s when the pain starts. These are just some thoughts I have; can’t prove any of it.
To your ‘maybes’ about not being excited about the retreat: I would say Yes to all of the above. The more courageous I think you are by going! …. I’m chickening out …
I looked forward to meeting you at the retreat Bernadette, so I’m disappointed that you won’t be there. I completely understand though why you want to “chicken out” as you put it. If there is a Thanksgiving retreat, perhaps you will try it as it is shorter and perhaps easier to try to hold on and get through it.
Yes I agree that is is natural for us as children and even as adults to love our parents unconditionally. Sometimes after submerging in and feeling and accepting painful childhood reality, I transition to adult deep sorrow that thanks to therapy I’m healing but my parents are gone and I was cheated of the opportunity to love them.
My life feels like a roller coaster of emotions lately. There will never be children and grandchildren in my life. I have no family here where I live. When I retire from work, I will be truly adrift and alone as I tread water and try to set a new course for myself, all the while getting older and weaker as the sands of time run out.
At the end of June and into early July The Saskatoon Jazz Festival is on here for 10 days. It is a premiere summer event that I’d love to take in and makes me starkly feel how I have no life partner and no long time friend to go to it with, and I might have to go alone so instead I might stay home alone and not go at all…missing out on life.
An acquaintance from 6 years ago happened to be in the City and on Thursday looked me up through email, so on Friday and Saturday we went to the Festival together. It was soooo nice to not be alone and to have and enjoy each other’s company while taking in the performances. Then after we went our separate ways on Saturday night, I felt sooooooo alone. Soooo lost. Soooo empty. I resorted to going to a bookstore to be around people, but nothing filled the emptiness in me. I looked for a book to bury myself in and forget about my life for a while.
I was drawn to and bought ‘A Train In Winter…An Extraordinary Story of Women, Friendship and Survival in World War Two’. In their twenties the young women became involved in the French Resistance to German occupation during WWII. The train is the one that took them to the concentration camps after they were caught by the German occupiers and the French collaborators. It is such a painful, compelling, uncompromising and real account that unexpectedly on Sunday morning while reading it I began to sob and cry for it opened me to my truth that I always run from. My parents are gone. Dad died in 2004 and Mom last November. Noreen is gone. I’ve been robbed of love. I have therapy and am healing but so what. I am alone and was all of my childhood. How can I possibly make a life when life has hurt and robbed me of so much, and therapy gives me so little in comparison really. But God it’s a relief to face awful truth bit by bit!
So on Monday evening I met with three women I know who are in the singles group I am part of from church of people who have unexpectedly lost their life partner. Together we attended Jesse Cook’s guitar concert at the Festival. I organized and led this outing because I wanted to see him perform and I didn’t want to go alone. I very much enjoyed the three ladies’ company. The live outdoor performance under the enveloping gorgeous Saskatoon summer evening was magic. For an hour or more I felt young and strong again, transported to timelessness when I was starting therapy and life felt pregnant with possibility. In nice company Monday evening at the concert and not alone, the positive endorphins flooding through me felt good. So wonderful to enjoy life and forget about problems for a while.
But I am alone again, and this evening I’m crying the aloneness I was born into that as a child I could never face. An aloneness that crushed my life. An aloneness I must endure until I can change it, if I ever do. In the book, of the 230 French women in the Resistance sent together to the camps, 49 survived the 29 months until war end and freedom. But as much as they looked forward to freedom and normalcy, it never truly came. For the rest of their lives they were tortured by what they had seen and endured in the camps. The book ends with one of the women saying “Looking at me, one would think that I’m alive…I’m not alive. I died in Auschwitz, but no one knows it”. This evening I cried, because it is the same for us. We never escape our truth. This evening I faced and accepted mine a little more.
One of the things that caught my attention in the article LesB linked to was Van de Kolk saying how much spouses of trauma victims suffer. I thought that this is exactly what we have been talking about lately.
These day and age most of us will have to nurse a parent or an aging spouse. The mental, physical and financial cost can be staggering and usually the one who does the nursing is pretty much transparent, even to him/herself because it always looks like the one being nursed should be the focus of attention, he/she are the one who really suffers.
Some of us (me for example) even had a “sandwich” situation where you have aging parents on the top and young children on the bottom, extending you caregiving abilities to their maximum.
I think this will be a major problem in the 21st century in the western hemisphere.
Leslie, I’m not going where so many of you are going, but I should be in G’s group and looking forward to meeting you there 🙂 Deep breaths….. if nothing else, a reminder that I am alive. I am present. I exist.
> do you remember what happened with the little cat?
Margaret, the little red cat was fine. It came back into the house later. We had it for several more years after the incident. We always had cats when I grew up, one or the other. As we lived out in the country and were surrounded by nature, they were out and about, hunting mice and birds, and often stayed out at night, and sometimes disappeared. I remember my second youngest brother being particularly attached to the cats. They gave him a lot of comfort. I wasn’t particularly focused on them, although I liked having them around. I remember once saying to mom that I wish I was a cat, they have a nice life, sunbathing, eating, climbing trees 🙂
So I’m thinking, no wonder I was confused! Nobody, let alone a 10-year old child, can handle a myriad of complex feelings all at once.
Dad’s violent anger.
My little siblings’ fear.
My mother’s fear and helplessness.
My compassion for mom and the little ones.
Wanting to reach out but couldn’t.
Lack of safety.
Sense of imminent danger.
My unmet need for comfort.
My instant denial.
No way to express any of it.
I’m sure there are more that I can’t think of right now.
It’s enough to want to jump out of a window!
Speaking of jumping out of a window, that’s what I was going to do when I was three. Maybe it was the same type of feeling overload and subsequent confusion that literally drove me crazy so that my only way out was to kill myself when I was three. Still TBD. I’m getting a headache just thinking about it! Headaches seem to be my constant companion these days.
Otto: I saw that you were asking Bernadette about her siblings. You do realize that was not an innocuous question to asking her, don’t you?
(correction) *not an innocuous question to be asking her
Margaret and Gretchen: I did read your responses to my question concerning my dad from some time ago. I know it can be considered rude in many quarters to not receive a response when one may be expected (oh, man how I know!), but I have just been extremely, punishingly busy with field investigative work and away from the blog mostly.
Anyway, thanks for your responses. I will simply maintain the status quo when conversing with my dad. I give him plenty of hugs anyway.
Nah, what i said last night was probably not correct. It was probably the Germans and the half-Germans (grandma, mom, aunt, aunt, aujnt) who tended to push the baby bottle into my mouth when i was crying. I think the later temmporary brokenators probably just let me cry it off and/or starve. Actually, I don’t remember at all. But i certainly have an eating problem.
On a different note, what i said about neanderthals last night; it wasn’t a commercial that triggered my thoughts, well, kinda, it was a radio host who combines his activism with his passion for talk radio, and he asks anyone who listens, What are you going to do (about the genocide in Somalia, black civil rights, etc). and what i trumpeted, or merely said loudly to his stupid ass voice on the radio, “NOTHING!”, because what the fuck can you do? mankind is an atrocity, and the only cure will be when the sun dies out. give a bum a dollar so he and his dog can eat. or 5 dollars to a homeless woman and her child. I am too tired from working to support all the small and medium businesses and banks and credit card companies and governments who always want all my earnings. So dont try to make me feel bad, mr. actifvist. the assholes are going to keep on killing elephants, rhinoceras, and peoples, no matter what i do.
Jim Kunstler once said that 10,000 books have been written about what was inflicted upon marginalized ethic groups during World War II (countless movies, documentaries, etc. are an optional extra). I’m sure Kunstler arbitrarily pulled that number out of his ass, but I took his point very well.
The shitty-ness of mankind? To me? Do you know how many books have been written about the 60 million automobile fatalities since WWII? I have only been able to find three books about the subject matter which completely tore my own life asunder. One of them was written by a guy with a 220 IQ back in the 1930’s.
May he rest in peace.
i am getting down a rhythm with my exercycle, pumping away in the 90 degree heat in the early evening, listening to the ipod, while i make sure the sick black cat does not jump the fence and hide in the garage for an hour. tears come up too. i was listening to some heavy beat 60’s songs like Let me in, I thought you were my friend. Then 2 brandenburg concertos, very very lively. The fucking Germans nailed a few good things, in between their methodically-executed and maniacal lust for blood. I probably listened to these good concertos with my mom before we got separated, probably those old 78’s. Then this guy in the 7th or 8th grade turned me onto Switched on Bach, which really got me biking down to the library later on to check out other good classical stuff, 4 seasons, other Bach stuff. I am not sure i found out Mozart until many years later though. Not sure. maybe my wife turned me on to him. Anyway this guy in 7th or 8th grade was also the guy who turned me on to structured film-making. Like i said before, i was already making family home movies with our Bell and Howell, but now he got me interested in stories, scripts. and just one more thing, I have just been fascinated by Yolandi Visser since i saw her in the Chappie video. She made a good structured home movie when she was younger and the Die Antwoord videos are all pretty artistic and colorful.
I think she is very artistic. I wasn’t that artistic, but it was fun making films, and painting Wolfman, Frankenstein, and Dracula plastic models. And petting long-gone cats and dogs. Anyway, “Picnic” – Anri Du Toit (Yolandi Visser) short film – before Die Antwoord
usg, not sure what you are saying, innocoucuso.
I was kidding, Otto. I was recalling Bernadette saying my question as to whether she was related to Jack was not an innocuous one. She answered yours readily, though. Life is unfair, isn’t it? In big and small ways…
We have automobile accidents because we no longer have lions and wolves to cull us down. sorry for whatever tragedy in an automobile transpired to mess your life up. hearing the news on the radio daily of “injury accident” makes me cringe with horror. even if we are not assholes driving stupidly, accidents DO seem to happen. my theory, a roll of the dice. but maybe not.
Thank you, Otto, but I am mostly pissed about some of the stupid decisions that I made when I was younger which have been hard for me to reverse today.
I was just not well-informed about things a long time ago which would have helped me to avoid some of life’s pitfalls.
I am being purposely vague here because I really don’t need to talk about it that much.
It’s just time to get as tough as I can, you know?
The people I dislike in the world will die off, anyway. That’s the good news, at least, and I am glad to carry that knowledge in my heart.
I gave my last sentence some extra thought and I realize it is driven by a slightly salty touch of anger. No time to fool with that stuff for now, though. I just wanted the blog to know that I know, that is all.
I have been taking a break (and giving people a break!) also I have been travelling I am in the UK at the moment visiting my older brother who lives in Yorkshire. I arrived the day of the Brexit vote so the news is full of that all the time. I will spare people any thoughts I might have about it everybody has thought about it I don’t think mine are so much worth adding to the pile
But it seems I will meet one of my ‘heroes’ Dr Nickolas Kollerstrom to give him his full ‘title’ next Tuesday. I am looking forward to it it’s at a ‘meeting’ but depending on how I get on am hoping I might even meet him privatly maybe a day or two after and have a pint or something. I am now at the stage where I can email him and he will answer (most of the time). Anyway what I was thinking about this thing of meeting my ‘heroes’ I feel it is good for me to do it as much as I can or if it is possible. Kind of helps with my tendency to ‘idolize’ from a distance. Like meeting Dr Kruse I would say has been helpful in that way helps to put him in perspective or maybe even cut him down to size a bit
In the end they are all (only) human but the way I grew up with most of my ‘immediate’ or ‘close’ needs being ignored and not seen and then combined with the Catholic religion of loving from ‘afar’………….it’s like ‘real love’ was always associated with great distance the ‘distance’ was part of it to love and expect nothing in return etc etc it almost had to be ‘distant’. ‘Pure’ love was by definition not ‘real’ love anyway I am rambling a bit here but there is something about the little Catholic boy who ‘loves’ but expects (knows) he will get nothing in return. After a while does not ‘want’ anything in return that would sully it and make it ‘dirty’ does not want anything in return and in the end has nothing…………….reaches where he wanted to go anyway
But back to the present I think it is good for me to meet my ‘heroes’ break a few icons so to speak but also to know them for real. Real love is what I wanted whatever mental contortions I put myself through to (not) get it. And as usual I might say kind of brings up one of my ‘gripes’ about primal or maybe the kind of psycho-analythic world in general which encourages this kind of ‘distancing’ like what do any of us really much know about Dr Janov. Did any of us ever ‘hang out’ with him………no and it was always set up that way. Speaking for myself that has not been that helpful in that it encourages ‘fantasy thinking’ and I do feel that was understood by Janov (and not only him) and was in a way ‘encouraged’. And can lead to a life of more ‘fantasy’ the fantasy even of becoming ‘real’. I notice on Janov’s blog it seems a lot of the people who write there have never been to therapy or have ever met him………………all the more reason to keep the fantasy pure and forever unfullfilled.
Anyway to say I WILL it seems meet Kollerstrom and I suppose will ‘report’ on it in a while………….
Patrick, I remember having fantasies about wanting to hang out with the therapists when I first started therapy. But that’s not the role of the therapist; they are not supposed to be our friends, or take on the role of a ‘hero’, least of all the role of a surrogate parent. I used to put the therapists on a pedestal but now I see them as normal human beings with their own limitations, who have special knowledge and skills in helping us. And, in Gretchen’s case, is kind and generous and caring and gives of herself in order to help. But no matter how close a patient/therapist relationship becomes, there will always be a healthy distance. As a patient, I don’t need to know Gretchen’s (or Dr. Janov’s) personal life in order for the therapy to work.
I think the transference of our needs on the therapist is part of the process. I still do it. When I am angry or frustrated with Gretchen these days for ‘not understanding or hearing me’ it is because I transfer this feeling I had with my mom on to her. It’s the primal pain that does that. But I can differentiate between the real Gretchen, whom I love as a person and as a therapist, and the ‘transfer parent’ whom I’m frustrated with. As long as I transfer my pain, it is an indication that I still have stuff to work out from the past. If you have a need to hang out with Dr. Janov, it may be a transference as well. It might indicate your need for being close with your parents as a child.
Your need for ‘real love’ is a real need. But it is not the therapist’s role to give you that love. It’s the therapist’s role to help you heal your trauma so that you can have real love in your own world. Having been raised catholic myself, I kind of understand what you mean by ‘pure’ catholic love and the idea of ‘distant love’ – for me it all boils down to the fact that my parents didn’t hug or cuddle or comfort me; there was not much physical closeness. I am not sure whether the distance was because of their catholic faith, or maybe they were just incapable of loving. The fact is, it left me starved for affection and love and comfort. That is where my pain is. And yours. Real love is hugging and cuddling and making a child feel safe.
I’m glad you wrote about this. You can keep the fantasy alive, which is exactly only that – a fantasy and unobtainable, or you can deal with the pain of your ignored ‘immediate’ and ‘close’ needs. By feeling the pain of the past, you are opening the possibility to having real love in the present.
Thanks Bernadette – I guess I am more ‘shooting from the hip’ here and sort of allow myself to leave alone a lot of concepts that might be ‘primally correct’ or not………..been there done that……….and it has mostlly not being that satisflying to me. These days as best as I can I just let things flow or what happens happens or how I feel is the way I feel no point for me in ‘judging’ it so much. Again been there done that.
It’s just for me and this is only for me that I speak I have met a few of my ‘heroes’ in recent years and it helps me, I like it though it can be a bit of a letdown also but that is part of coming to terms with what exactly they have to offer me and it sort of puts things in more perspective. Less idolizing and more trusting and judging for myself hopefully.
And this ‘distance’ thing………..it’s not that I want the therapist as a friend or whatever it’s just there can be and often is a ‘lack of reality’ about it and it does encourage ‘transference’ which actually I don’t think is healthy. I mean I do it also but for example meeting Kollerstrom and not only him often helps me deflate that. And given my background of lack of love and a lot of dreaming about how things are or might be in some ideal world is helped I feel at least to get things in a better perspective
Quote:- “And this ‘distance’ thing………..it’s not that I want the therapist as a friend or whatever it’s just there can be and often is a ‘lack of reality’ about it and it does encourage ‘transference’ which actually I don’t think is healthy. ”
I feel you are not being honest with yourself here. You obviously desired to have some familiarity with the therapist, yeah?? AND seemingly seek it from your heroes.
Where, when and at which collage did you learn about ‘transference’. You put yourself forward as some sort of expert … all the time. Let me suggest to you … AGAIN …. “The reality is what you feel”, as I see it. The rest is likely to be an illusion.
And I think all in the Church might give a hearty “Amen” to that. About the same as saying the Rosary speaking of which it’s time to go to bed here.
Patrick: It’s interesting to know that you are looking forward to meeting one of your heroes. Hope it turns out to your liking. That aside I did find two sentences in your comment that seems to me; you need to bring up, at ever turn of events. I feel, though could well be wrong; you were eventually disappointed, you did not get what you expected when you came here at great effort and expense.. Quote:- “what do any of us really much know about Dr Janov. Did any of us ever ‘hang out’ with him…” I am not sure that NOT hanging out with someone, puts a great distance from them, in terms of their notions and idea. It depends on how WELL we read them.
The only thing I find relevant about Janov is what he discovered and what he has since written. All else is irrelevant, though I do know he’s not a recluse, and he hangs out with quite a few people. Who, why and for what reason, I know NOT, and is of no real concern of mine. I’m not one of them even though he’s one of my two heroes.
The first: William Shakespeare, and ‘fat chance’ I could ever hang out with him. I do have some ideas about his work and how it might have come about, having spent some time as an actor and knowing that actors do, given the remotest chance, like to embellish the playwrights writings. Particularly, since they get into a deep study of the character they are about to play. However, I have no real proof of that, and there are more scholars out there studying him than any other single person that lived … as far as I know
The other of course is Art Janov. I have met him four times and have few fantasies about the man. I admire his writings and certainly for me his discovery has greatly benefited me. The rest, I have written about in the past.
> yesterday me and my half sister Germaine went to my mom .
> she was grumpy at the start, muttering about her house and not being happy there and always being on her room etc.
> i tried refreshing her memory about it being her decision to move to the home and encouraging her to join more of the activities, but she was in an argumentative mood and as the three of us started getting irritated I proposed going out for a walk in the garden, and taking Niske along as she loved to sit outside under the trees.
> that was accepted and afterwards we could go to the cafeteria where some music was planned, something with a guitar..
> in the garden mom kept muttering away at first, but then the beauty of the spot did do its job by distracting her and she did get carried away from her foul mood by some specially beautiful trees, and then a little bird house where he let her feed the birds with leftover bread I had in my backpack.
> she loves doing that and my sister took some pictures of her.
> we also discovered a little pond full of big goldfish, a statue of a frog and plenty of squirrels roaming around.
> then we sat with Niske , mom saying something about being able to be outside and Niske broke out in laughter when I said to my mom she was not in a correction institute after all…
> one of the caretakers came to tell us the music was about to start, mom did not understand her and kept ordering tea from her, smiley, but in the end we all got up and went to the cafeteria..
> I was expecting mom would not be impressed, it was completely full with residents, curtains half closed, and we sat right by the spot where an older artist was about to start singing and playing with the occasional adding of some taped and prepared music to accompany him.
> he started off with some schlagers and at first I felt not at ease, not being fond of the music and expecting mom to start feeling bad, but when she recognized some songs she seemed to be getting into it and I started to relax, with the help of one beer as well…
> i noticed she seemed to want to sing along, and made myself do so in encouragement, and actually started to get pleasure in it after a while.
> soon she and we where singing along loudly ‘viva España, and the atmosphere was festive and cheerful.
> one of the nurses took some old ladies to the dance floor and danced with them, which I found moving, it was so generous, more than what her job obliged her too, such a nice gesture..
> some of them have a heart for their job, that is very clear.
> i suggested my sister shed take my mom for a dance, and she did, and well, they were the only ones dancing but had a lot of success doing their laid back rock and roll jive, and mom had a great time showing off, smiling from ear to ear, waving at other people and inviting them to dance, not realizing more than half of them were in wheel chairs..
> she danced with a bit of extra show, and I took pictures of it with my Iphone, and afterwards my sister told me they were all good and some splendid, mom grinning widely and clearly having a great time..
> there was a well known song later on with the lyrics being ‘I love you, I love you give me a kiss’ in a catchy repetitive upbeat rhythm, and mom took my hand and a few times when the words give me a kiss were sang I did give her a big kiss on the cheek.
> already early I had asked her if she was having a good time, and she had pressed my knee in a gesture of affection, which my sister has caught as she was just filming.
> we stayed all along and mom would have stayed longer if it would not have been dinnner time and time for us to prepare for the bus ride home.
> going up to her room we ran into some people of her section, and one man came up to us, and said to mom she should play the next time as she probably played the piano better than the man his guitar..
> so I asked him if he had heard my mom play, and he answered that a lady with such beautiful blue eyes as my mom would certainly play beautifully as well!!…
> he said he would gather some people to come listen to her on the piano, mom has an admirer there already, haha, and my sister said he was pretty attractive himself, also blue eyed..
> I had noticed a male voice at mom’s lunch table, between all the female voices..
> so that is good for her, boy, her social life there is getting better than mine, haha! it is such a shame she won’t remember any of this today, but we planned to use the pictures of her with the birds and her dancing to print them off and hang them on the wall, so she can see them and hopefully start to remember and internalize they are taken there, and it is her having a good time, clearly..
> we will also take one of her by the piano, playing..
> i did try to send them to my brother, managed to send them I thought, but heard selecting the right pictures had gone wrong and I had always sent other pictures than the ones about mom dancing.
> that sucks but when I see my brother we will select the right ones and mail them so we can print them.
> called mom’s boyfriend and told him too about her having a good time.
> oh yes, and shortly before we left we even found out from one of the caretakers she had actually joined the gym that same morning!
> so well, I will not waste my energy anymore trying to convince her to join activities with her responding negatively, and us getting irritated haha, while all the time she did a already participate anyway but did not remember it to tell us..
> it was a good afternoon with a difficult start.
> mixed feelings, things will never get completely right, as she forgets, but well, she surely has very nice times in between the grumpy ones and much more socializing than ever before.it is sad she always falls back into negative feelings so far, let’s hope that wears off over time..
> ok now gonna read this mornings comments, M
Margaret, it is good to hear that your mother is doing better at the home now. It sounds like you had a lovely day. That was a touching scene when you all were singing and you kissed her cheek and exchanged affection. Very sweet and tender. I’m glad she participates in activities more and makes new friends. I can imagine that you can let go of your worries a bit now. Excellent idea to put pictures in her room! It must be so difficult for her to always forget what she had done. It is so cruel.
> yes, cruel seems a very good word for her situation..
> she is able to socialize and have a great time but right after gets thrown back into a frightening confusing empty space with no memories and prospects except the environment being different than the one she has been in for the last 55 years.
> we can only hope she participates enough to start feeling more familiar with her actual surroundings and that she socializes most of the time eventually.
> she is courageious and irritatingly cross and stubborn in turns, affectionate and angry, scared and provocative .
> I am still a bit puzzled by what Gretchen meant with us being somewhat symbiotic, probably true in some way, but is it a criticism or not?
> in some ways it can be negative when too much old stuff is unresolved, but on the other hand there is also a lot of silent understanding and trust.
> yesterday my mom squeezing my leg meant a lot to me, a simple and straightforward sign of connection, of knowing we both care and mean well and know it and know we know it.
> that seems a good side of the symbiosis of tenderness and love, aside from all the difficult stuff..
> if ever I can single out the right picture of her dancing I might try to post it here, maybe..
> guess I might feel both defensive and proud of her having such a strong personality and impact, not only on me but on a lot of people.
> it feels good I seem more able to allow feeling both sides, the good and the irritating and annoying aspects about her.
> very good we can share it as it would be too much of a handful for one person to deal with.
> watching her also warns me to be vigilant about some tendencies of being too negative and judgmental..
> I feel indeed i am better able now to let go a bit, have not called her today, well, one half- hearted attempt in the middle of the afternoon and it was nice to not find her present in her room.
> I am aware of me needing her as well, it is not only altruism..
> exam is coming closer, I just had a look to the OU site for my next course, it completely changed and that is very frustrating as the new site is not well set up for my screenreader.
> too many visual and unlabelled links, useless so far, arch!!
Margaret, it must be absolutely terrifying for your mom not remembering what she did the day before. I could not imagine losing control to such an extent. My heart goes out to her. I am with you, I hope that the more she engages in the activities and becomes more used to the new environment and makes friends, that she will retain more of her current life and situation in her memory. That would make it easier for her to be there. And it would make it easier for you to leave her on her own for a longer period of time. I could imagine that she feels some helplessness, which could cause the frustration and anger and provocations. You seem to be able to handle her different moods very well now.
As far as what Gretchen wrote regarding your symbiotic relationship. You should ask her directly, if you have specific questions or possibly feel criticized. The way I read it, it was not meant as criticism. The way I understand it, is that she thinks you are doing a lot and she is concerned about your and your brother’s well being. She is pointing out that certain dynamics between the three of you (you, mom, brother) have been this way before your mother became ill, and the way I interpret it, you are possibly continuing the same behavior. I don’t know enough of your history with your mom, aside from you sometimes feeling that nothing you did for her was enough, and on the other hand that she smothered you sometimes, both of which you mentioned earlier in this blog, if I remember correctly. Maybe Gretchen wanted you to watch out for that, but of course I can’t speak for her and you should ask her. From what I read, you are aware of your own need for your mother as you take care of her.
When my mother got ill and I visited her, first at the hospital, later in the retirement home, I distinctly remember that she was a lot more approachable than before she got ill. She needed us more. My need to be close to her took over, and I took advantage of the fact that she needed me. I think we both enjoyed our newly found ‘closeness’ for the moment, but of course, it didn’t make up for the distance between us during my childhood. That said, there was something genuine and healing between us when she was more dependent. It was easier for me to love her. There were some tender moments between us.
Good luck with your studies!
On thinking about transference; that Patrick brought up, and especially that he thought it was unhealthy. I totally disagree. For myself, I have been involved in transference all my life.
Starting at the beginning there was only my mammy, my daddy and my Granny. Eleven months later came my sister which I had to share with mammy … but Granny was always for me, right up to the age of 10.
All our relationships, I feel have connection to those very early ones, call them transference or what you will. My teachers, my doctor, my friends and all my lovers, even my old scoutmaster. We, I feel relate to other from our experiences, old or more recent, subliminal or conscious. I see transference as normal and natural in the sense, that I read Freud to mean it. Why some of us, may try to transcend it, I find hard to conceive, when I feel it is impossible to be without it..
My favorite therapist, Vivian, I claimed was my symbolic Granny. (which I gather did not please her). I felt she cared about me. I think she said it was bad enough being so many peoples symbolic mommy, without being a Granny.
Of course going to the extreme and wanting my therapist, lover or anyone else; to be the daddy I never had, can be counter productive. But here again; if that is the case. I feel we need to work through it; and not to deny it, or worse, claim it to be unhealthy. Least-way this is how I see what Freud was meaning.
USG, “It’s just time to get as tough as I can, you know?” Feels sad to me to hear that. Life is surely a bitch.
Is it just me or is Jack getting ‘worse’ I mean the guy knows everything about everything has an ‘opinion’ about everything, I of course am always ‘wrong’. I say black he says white, I say blue he say green, I SEE violet lhe sees purple. Like leave me alone I mean do I believe him or my ‘lyin eyes/
I mean it was interesting to take a break and I see him doing pretty much all the same things with Daniel. Daniel makes some good and subtle points oh no the hammer goes down this JUDGE has ruled! And a kind of Taliban Judge not that I have anything against the Taliban really but I mean the harsh Fundamentalism……………..this is how it is and should be according to the BOOK and woman/child/man you are in ‘error’
And I give Daniel major props for seeing the ‘dangers’ in Jack’s ‘ideas’ He spots them on a theoretical level I believe I have seen them in real life and while I would not say they are exactly ‘dangerous’ they can be if you are too naive or take them too literally. Not ‘dangerous’ to Jack really he is the classic ‘ideologue’ and he will always be untouched never lets himself be touched just marches on nursing his own certainties. How much of all this will get ‘quoted back’
That I feel is mostly just ‘hate’ or ‘one upmanship’. He says this blog is a place for people to express feelings (whatever is going on with them) and I agree so then why the f.. does he have an ‘opinion’ or a ‘critique’ of everything certainly everything I say. He seems to have a total inability to see the irony of what he is doing his THEORY says ‘all feelings are vaid’ his PRACTICE is about as much as possibe the opposite of that.
Well he is getting old maybe in that way he has done ok maybe ‘nursing his own certainties’ keeps him sane somehow. But it’s ironic a therapy based on ‘change’ or ‘open to change including ‘ideas’ is the THEORY but in practice not so much or not at all that I can see. There is no need to start any kind of fight about this Jack…………to quote yourself it is just my feeling (about you and even primal in general at least among some of its ‘exponents’ well really mostly just you and Janov)
Being in England it is interesting…………..I saw a postcard in one of the shops yesterday and it said “If you are going through Hell, keep going” and I though I wonder who said that (it reminded me of Jack’s kind of attitude) and it was……….Winston Churchill. Jack often seems to me a kind of Winston Churchill of primal ‘it will be long it will be hard but keep feeling it’ ‘fight them on the beaches, fight them on land and fight them in their own home on their blogs’ whatever. This similarity with Churchill did strike me before and now with the version of history that I kind of go along with Churchill was a very ‘dangerous’ man
a warmonger and propogandist lived ‘in his head’ seemed to have little or no regard for the sufferings of his own or any peoples. And for me at least I appreciate people who can kind of pull back from all that and say basically this guy is full of shit people like Kollerstrom who seems very “English” but who has the ability to see and think in a ‘fresh’ waky and who I hope to meet in a few days
Patrick: cut to cue … what’s the feeling going on in your head that makes seven (yes 7) long (winded) paragraphs about me?. I must be important, one way or another to you. I wonder why you like to come on this blog at all; KNOWING that I will quote you and that, seemingly drives you up the wall. Unless of course you are a masochist. Now THAT’S worth a thought!
REMEMBER ‘bug-a-lugs’ you started this whole ‘Jack and Pony show’, with your attempts to insult me (which failed cos I love reading your ‘blow outs’ … knowing they are just YOUR subliminal feelings) It actually encourages me in the hope that one day you’ll actually “catch on” (“hope springs eternal”)… and don’t forget you ain’t got much time left … you spend the major part of your life running a business … quite successfully I might add … only to give it away. AND from what I gather, on the grape vine, they ain’t too fond of you either … in-spite of your gift to them.
It’s actually sad Patrick. Blogging, as far as I see it, is NOT about being all “lovey dovey”, you have to takes the ‘knocks’ also. Whatever!!!!!
P. S. So!!! now what’s MY feeling? I love it. I actually await your comments, they are such fun (just another feeling.. since this is a feeling blog). AND … I just know, you can’t leave.
I will quote Daniel hopefully he does not mind you seem to be a ‘feeling tripper’ about just as bad as being a ‘head tripper’ which is what it is anyway only more of a pain in the arse (as they say here in England that is) to anyone having to listen. A ‘head tripper’ keeps most of it ‘inside’ the ‘feeling tripper’ makes a big show of it. I don’t see what you do as much of any improvement on the situation just more noisy and very annoying
Quote:- “……..just more noisy and very annoying”
Finally!!!!!! we got a feeling outta you.
If I keep this up will I be accepted into the ‘feeling-tripper’ club? I like the ‘feeling tripper’ concept and thank Daniel for it. Helps me to deal with the likes of you lol
> thanks for your long reply, will reread it again later on.
> it is true our mom has had a tendency to invade our mids to which we had to defend ourselves from an early age.
> need seeming to be her main drive..
> i am aware of it at the same time as being aware of my defenses making me feel like keeping some distance fromm her.
> that last bit was what I felt acutely at some point at the music afternoon, and which I consciously counteracted on by reaching out to her, which was a good thing to do on that moment.
> I think part, big part of my feelings are coloured by me expecting most of the time to be disapproved of or disliked by Gretche , yeah, big transference going on there.
> the best option i have is to explore that and express it when that feels helpful.
> in the actual situation the need for approval might be even more acute as mom is in a lot of feeling turmoil..
> I have never had any problem with living faraway from her, it is not as if I need to be with her or something, lived in Spain for 8 years and planned to go live in the USA.
> the strings tying me up are more subtly entertwined in my mind, it is hard to untangle them bit by bit.
> I don’t want to remain as ‘distant and hard’ as my defenses have caused me to be and neither do I want to allow her to manipulate me.
> I think I have come a long way already, having found more of an emotional balance and ways to deal with her that work to some degree.
> so much of my former therapy seems to have been about dad feelings, about him being so distant to me.
> the mommy feelings might turn out to be trickier, more complicated, more painful..
> you spoke about it once with regard to your own mom, how can you dare to be angry at the one person you need?
> I do feel a lot freer with my mom already than I used to be so well, still work in progress..
> it just struck me, that if my expectation to be disliked, to be disapproved of, is so strong, that feeling must be deeply engraved.
> I think apart of true, genuine good feelings, there are also very conditional feelings coming from our mom, depending on how we do what pleases her or not, or to which point we go along with her ‘manipulations’ or not.
> it is such a mix of real affection and of her selfish isaciable need, that it wil never be entirely unraveled.
> I feel it is a blessing we have each other, my half brother, half sister and me in the middle, as they are both related to me but not to each other.
> it makes it easier to stay in touch with reality and to protect our own life, as to not being swallowed up so to say by her guilt tripping us..
> my brother and me were going to go today but changed our plans to tomorrow.
> better for several reasons.
> just got a phone call from the new doctor we chose for our mom, a friendly woman.
> she was called to see mom as she has a lot of pain in her infected ear and also turns out to have a much too high blood pressure.
> the doctor asked me for more information about her eyesight, almost blind on one eye, poor on the other, but I seem to remember it was like that already for a while.
> but she still sees fairly well at some distance, worse nearby.
> so she is not gonna send mom to an ophtalmologist, which is good, she has been there and her situation is old age related and cannot be treated at this point.
> the doctor asked me about the Seroquel and also asked me if mom had ‘wandering’ habits at home, which I denied.
> there seems to be some problem with her occasionallly entering other people’s rooms, but I said it might actually be a good sign, of her looking for things to do, which makes her hopefully more open for more activities to join.
> she might also be looking for pleasant company, it is a bit sad to think of mom being bored and somewhat lost there, but that is only part of the time, she has plenty of nice moments thre as well.
> the doctor said that despite the side effects taking place right away, the heling efffects of Seroquel take three to four weeks before getting visible, so in a way that sounds good as it might give my mom more time to adjust there without the nurses getting impatient with her and saying they can’t cope. they hopefully think the meds must get a chance to work first..
> we can only hope they find ways to give her something to do, at home she had plenty of space to fuss around of course, but there she slept most of her days as she got the medication in the morning as she refused to engage herself to stay home for the nurses visit in the evening…
> will have to accept we can’t solve all her problems and there might be many hours she is in her room feeling frustrated, not remembering the activities she had and that are yet to come..
> have to let it be and just do what we can in a reasonable degree, and hope the staff there finds solutions.
> the piano won’t go upstairs due to lack of space with the renovating works going on. the promise of a keyboard sounded very halfhearted. we must wait for a while now and see how things develop I guess.
> she used to like doing crypto crosswords, I can try to buy her some as maybe she can still do them…
> just gave mom a call and am very glad I did.
> she sounded so cheerful, did not remember having seen her boyfriend or the doctor today, but laughed with it and made jokes about it.
> it was really nice hearing her like this, in a good mood and at peace with being there, on this very moment anyway.
> she asked me about me and lauged with some cat stories, so all is well at the moment, and seems to be improving overall.
> such a reassurance to not picture her feeling lost but now at ease, still a bit bored as the evening news is not on for more than an hour still, but saying she will just take a little nap until then.
> sigh with relief and contentment!
Here is a cute little song i first heard while driving up to San Francisco area when phd kid was going to school. Driving in the dark, Z had fallen asleep so i could listen to music. I got sad listening to it today while exercycling in the back yard with the dog and cat lying on the ground, a little cooler today. Sad, I guess, because, maybe it was a part of my life that is over. I liked going up there, it was good to go to the kid’s tiny student apartment and see the streets and sights of the cities up there, the university, eat out at a few places with z and the kid, walk the kid’s dog around the tony neighborhoods by the university, peoples park, the beautiful green hills, i feel so sad writing this. It is just another part of my life that is gone forever, i hate it. i wish i could cry, maybe next week when z and kid go to hawaii. anyway.
i was also listening to the song and hearing yolanda’s young love of her boyfriend, and the way she speaks to him. kills me. i dont have that. i never had that i dont think. or if i had it, it certainly went away.
A friend recommended a book to me “Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life” by James Hollis. I decided to give it a look. So far I would say there isn’t anything in it that we don’t intuit from being in Primal Therapy. However it is interesting to hear someone else express them. On page 38 he writes “Each morning the twin gremlins of fear and lethargy sit at the foot of our bed and smirk. Fear of further departure, fear of the unknown, fear of the challenge of largeness intimidates us back into our convenient rituals, conventional thinking and familiar surroundings. To be recurrently intimidated by the task of life is a form of spiritual intimidation.”…..”Yet the way forward threatens death—-at the very least, the death of what has been familiar, the death of whomever we have been.”
Don’t I know it! Today is a national holiday. I had many plans for this day and this weekend. But it’s 4 pm and all I’ve done is numb out at home. It is the last few days of a 10 jazz festival here. I thought I would at least go to the free stage. If I am honest, fear of being alone is stopping me.
So writing here galvanized me into action. In the midst of getting ready to go out and take in the free stage performances, the feeling hit me, we used to take in these kind of festivities together. The only person I felt myself and alive with, now I never will with her. Feelings about how life can stop us dead in our tracks keep falling on me like bricks. The music of Jesse Cook, San Fermin, London Grammar, James Blake, Chris Otti, for me capture the largesse and tragedy of life, and as I listened to it the flood of feelings came more freely. It’s shocking that life can go so abruptly and bluntly wrong, as it did when I was given away when I was 1 1/2 then moved back with my parents when I was 4 and realized (unconsciously) that there was no warmth between us but I was trapped with them forever—or yes even can end despite our plans and hers did. It just hurts, losing her, my lost childhood, never to return. Slowly I’m feeling deeper, fuller, letting it in more, becoming aware more what it’s done to me, and how it’s made my life hard to live.
On page 39 he writes “The daily confrontation with these gremlins of fear and lethargy obliges us to choose between anxiety and depression, for each is aroused by the dilemma of daily choice. Anxiety will be or companion if we risk the next stage of our journey, and depression our companion if we do not.”
After my feeling last night and accepting my aloneness a little more, I went to watch the evening jazz performance at the outdoor free stage. After about 10 minutes standing amidst the audience, from behind I recognized the person in front of me. She is a casual acquaintance/friend from the cross-country ski club, the canoe club, and the ball room dance club. So I approached her and we talked for a while, catching up with each other. She was waiting for friends.
When they arrived we were introduced to each other. I took up their invitation to join them and their spouses at a table in the beer gardens. It was much nicer being with people rather than alone, although not being a regular part of their crowd I felt somewhat uncomfortable. Much of their conversation with each other dealt with their shared history, their spouses/partners, and their grown up children who had visited for the holiday. Listening to them I felt so much missing from my life, so much relationship building I need to work on to fill my life even a little bit more with people.
With distressed concern I saw in my current shut-down-to-protect-myself child learned behaviour how stunted my capacity is for building and maintaining relationships, and how it will be hard work riddled with anxiety to overcome it. Even then my adult life won’t become what it should have been.
Maybe the rest of your weekend will improve
Somewhat related I also have a problem I should be working on but it’s difficult. It’s that my job is very boring and unsatisfying. There are few opportunities around here. This is an outermost suburb of NYC; the trip there is 1 1/2 hours. We are settled here and won’t be moving, especially since my wife has a great job, with great benefits 10 minutes from home. It is a great place to raise a family, but not so much for my career.
It’s hard to imagine staying in this job for another 8 or so years until I would retire.
I need something that will be more rewarding and yet not involve a pay cut.
It would be nice to do something else, but almost impossible to get what I need with a new line of work.. I can’t see commuting to NYC, I’ve done that in the past, and wouldn’t want to do it again.
I hasn’t been hitting me hard right now because it’s vacation time. I’ll have two weeks and then another week for the retreat. But returning after that I know will be bad.
It kind of feels like being stuck in a hopeless situation.
I don’t see how I can fix this problem. It does have it’s
good points; very low stress (to the point of boredom), good schedule, and close by.
But that doesn’t make up for all the negatives with it.
It does sound like being stuck in a hopeless situation Phil.
What I would add is that I feel unimportant at work and I’ve realized some old feelings add to this. My mother didn’t seem to find me important, didn’t talk to me, or notice me,
really at all. At work I want to feel important, and at this job I’m not feeling it. At some past jobs, for example, I supervised a staff and they came to me with problems for me to solve’ which could be stressful, but helped me feel important. Phone calls would be directed to me etc. So I now have a better understanding why I would like to have such a position. Where I am now, it is just boring and unsatisfying.
This also probably relates to why I left so many jobs, made so many changes, looking for exactly what I need, mommy.
Phil, I relate in feeling the need to be important, the need for meaning and purpose at work. What bothers me is work is the only place I get those now, and I seem to be deciding to retire next Spring, dooming myself to feeling alone and worthless all the time, unless i find some other way to meet those needs.
Ecstasy is still possible? I mean, was it ever possible (for me)? I must have mis-read that. But I will hang on to that thought.
Where did you mis-read that Otto?
Otto: Yeah!!! ecstasy, it’s out there … but it does seem more and more rare. Is that a sign of getting old? I used, as a kid to have lots of it … but then I was lucky. I suppose if one is constantly having to deal with old old pain that can seem like an impossibility. Just knowing it’s out there, always leaves a chance that one could stumble upon it. Don’t give up!!!!
Patrick: not attempting to put one over you, or whatever, but neurosis is a consequence, not a purpose. We keep on hurting until we have fully expressed that deep deep hurt. Some hurts, like unutterable neglect might be impossible to totally feel and express … but chipping away at it, bit by bit, will ease some of it … not necessarily eradicate it.
To hope that our histories could be totally eradicated is a forlorn hope as I see it. It happened. It’s now part of us. I know you’ve often referred to my crying as “crocodile tears”; but crying is simple natural and normal. We (sadly) learned to not cry. This therapy, as I see it, is to get back to allowing us just do that (and others) very simple response, most of us were actually born with.
I repeat, I am not trying to put anything over you, since I thought this comment of yours made sence. Hope you also see it that way.
OK well………….thanks. It’s just I am staying with my brother who was just over a year older than me so we did pretty much everything together growing up and he is here with his wife so ‘successful marriage’ at least on the outside and his 4 children who visit quite regularly. One is coming from Moscow to day another from Boston………….but I dunno as ‘bad’ as my situation is in that regard well though we are quite different on the outside it seems we both got caught in a trap not much different really.
I think for him it was sort of to ‘prove’ he is normal or can do it I guess I tried and try in different ways to ‘prove’ myself also. All because we just could not be our simple selves
Being good academically and for me being ‘top of the class’ was always important again because the essence of life was missing. He was bullied as much as I but he seemed to be not as ‘affected’ by it. Like he is all into this Brexit thing reading about it, listening to the radio, watching TV etc which is OK most people here are but I dunno he seems TOO into it. Like again to ‘prove’ himself somehow, prove he is ‘normal’ almost.
Of course I am also except I like to keep the idea going that I even am ‘better’ I know even more or something or my thing about ‘hoaxes’ like I see farther and deeper or something. But whatever…………..we are both doing the best we can or doing the only thing we can. Sometimes it all seems so sad and such a round about way of getting nowhere. Reminds me as a child I used to like the saying “the long way around is sometimes the shortest way home’ for me it sure has been a long way around. Another thing I am reminded of a few years ago when my Mom was still alive I said to her talking about my time in America “I want you to know I worked hard even very hard I did not take the easy way” and she said which shocked me at the time “yes the hard way and also the foolish one” I found it shocking in it’s truth really I always regarded my Mom as being a bit or even a lot ‘stupid’ and how in one or two words she showed me I was pretty much the ‘foolish’ one.
It’s life’s process; I would say. Perhaps you don’t remember but I questioned education (among the many other subjects in my book you actually bought.
I remember well going to see Wendy Campbell before I came here, thinking they might open a Primal Institute in England. She made a complimentary remark that had a ‘back slide’ to it. She said you seem to have an intelligent attitude towards Primal therapy … albeit that your intelligence is your best defense. I knew instantly she was absolutely right.
I continue to question many of my ideas and feel this blog helps me to keep that in mind.
Phil, not to take you away from any feelings, but I forget what it is, that you do (for work). ?
I’m a lab technologist. I believe you’re the guy we call in the hospital when our computers aren’t working, (and we have a lot of them). I did work at the local hospital but it was overnight, where someone new often has to start. A day job opened up which I should have gotten, but didn’t, and I left and ended up where I am now.
Over the years I worked at so many different places, if I just would have stuck with one of them better than where I am now, and didn’t move so far from the city, I wouldn’t have this job problem.
The black guy at work who occasionally had some jazz music playing, moved to another job a few weeks back. I liked the jazz he listened to. I pretty much don’t like most jazz though. Anyway, he is gone, I don’t think about him at all. He was warm and friendly, and had black attitude, always messing around with women at work, even though married. Oh well, out of sight, out of mind. Same with everyone, for me, even the kids. My old old coping mechanism.. Z going to Hawaii, and I probably wont think about her at all. Will have my hands full with 2 dogs who cant be in the same room together and the sick black cat. And work. Not sure if the work is boring, or meaningless, but in a busy hospital, there is always a chance of seeing my “mom”.
where’d you go?
Otto – you reminded me of this a real ‘oldie’ this one
I just had a thought or half a thought or something…………….all our ‘neuroses’ have a purpose sometimes I used to wonder if we are hurt in childhood why do we keep on hurting and well it’s probably nature’s way of protecting itself and sort of a way of trying to prevent us from passing on the damage by having children ourselves. So nature makes us incapable not to keep on hurting us but to protect herself. So in some bigger scheme of ‘evolution’ it very much makes sense. Of course man finds ways of cheating nature by for example having kids when they really should not or have no real ability to raise them. This does not exactly give me consolation (I do not have kids) but at least there is some higher purpose being worked out it seems
I will never forget Vivian saying “There is no perfect job.” It brings reality to the situation.
I think you feeling about it and some of all that is great. I too need to go there more and definitely relate to wanting to be important. I deserve to be – my education and experience render me under- employed. I do however like my job and know how l-o-n-g and tedious days can be when you don’t.
For both of us – things are changing. Our children are truly growing up – and for B & I away. Your job whereby you did not commute forever and did not return home exhausted would have been such a plus when you wanted/needed to be with your family.
Is there any way you could work part-time and find another part-time job in addition that you enjoy.
Granted, some financial/benefits etc. may be lost…That is the price. And I get how our expenses do not decrease…
See you soon Phil 🙂
Hi Leslie, I can agree with that about there not being a perfect job; maybe why I made so many changes over the years.
It’s great that you have a job you like, that’s what I need. I need to investigate all the possibilities; nothing wrong with two part time jobs.
My youngest son is in college, so that’s a big reason about not wanting a pay cut. The oldest is away at graduate school but supports himself.
We are leaving for Spain today, except for my oldest son. Staying two weeks, and my wife 1 1/2 months. I’ll be bringing my tablet so as to stay in touch with the blog.
I look forward to seeing you soon!
Bon Voyage Phil! I hope you can relax and enjoy being so far away from your job and house chores etc. – & have great times with your wife and son in exotic Spain!
i HATE taking car in for an oil change! 4 hours for an oil change. Just because i am a schlub. wah wah wah. mom! ok, but i now know everything to know about sharks from the discovery channel. wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
now i am pissed at z. you got the car now go dance with kid and be back by 2. you hjad plenty of time to eat, get ot of fucki ng kitchen i needf to cram food down my throat. stop talking to me. diabetiic. tired. oil change was looking good at first. mysterious sexy women in front of me in line at 7am, hugging the technician. 2 women first they came out of building berfore opening time, with tanktops and tatoos at 7 am. then they opened rear door of their car to show some issue with that door, to the technikcan or someomne else, then thney went inside and came back out with shirts on. then the young one went back knside while the older one talked to the technickan for a long time, gesturing fujr;ioujsly wikth her hands. or course she wore very form-fitting pants, so I only stared just a little. Tech came back with an instrument to read codes. Big baking sheet and blanket in the trunk, what the fuck is that for, i am assuming she runs some kind of small cvooking business or getting ready for 4th, a party in the park, like all good latinos do. why am i even thinking about anyhthing. if i took the shujttle home, they dont come back to get you. last time i took the bus, it took 40 minujtes to go 3 mles, and i had to stand the entire way on crowded bus, white amongst latinos. uncomfortable with my dark and lonely personality. thats enough, just had to let some of this go. are you done in the fjcki ng kitche n i am gojkng to eat a stick of butteer now lthat i shoved whjeat thins box dfown my throat.
So many interesting images so interestingly written about your life, thanks.
I get the cramming food down your throat need. I find I’m cramming food down more and more I wonder why. And gaining weight uncomfortably so. Has to stop.
Staying here with my older brother I feel a bit anxious and also ‘talked over’ not used to that, one of the reasons I went away. I don’t like being talked over my brother also talks to much imo at least and most people really. So I do most of the listening so to speak but once today I was talking and he kind of gestures ‘come on get to the end of the story’ for an instant I see red but don’t lose it I just go ‘look I do most of the listening here and now that I am saying something you are telling me to make it quick’ he could see my anger though and he has this pattern with his wife also he kind of ‘dominates’ in some way like in doing most of the talking etc but when challenged pulls his horns in.
This was how it was growing up I mean with my Mom and Dad. My father dominated it was all about his interests, his money, his farm etc but every so often my Mom would ‘rebel’ and even as a child I sort of understood these dynamics I felt sorry for both of them, I hated to see my Dad be intimidated by my Mom’s rages when she finally lost it but I felt bad for her too but mostly I took my Dad’s side. I didn’t like those rages and worse were the ‘silences’ that sometimes went on for almost 3 days. No words at all from my Mom just like a silent protest but like a volcano behind it to give the silence some force.
I feel bad for my brother but also he ’embarrases’ me I find him a bit embarrasing make that a lot embarrasing sometimes. Last time I felt close to him here this time not nearly as much. He talks about politics and soccer all the time and deep down I feel his wife finds him embarrasing also though she seems to ‘love’ him. This reminds me so much of the ’70’s (nothing has changed!) when I was preparing to leave to do primal again something I could not talk about I tried at times but I then felt embarrased about dirty laundry or whatever in the family. So mostly I didn’t and they mostly avoided the topic though I do remember his wife asking me quite seriously why can’t you do what you are going to do just walking around or being yourself here why do you have to pay so much money and go so far away’ and I remember saying something like ‘that’s a good question’ a question to which I did not have a good answer. And on and off over the years I have though she had a good point there.
She is smart and actually I like her but again she is kind of ‘kept down’ by my brother not in any obvious ways but like his interests and concerns come first even though to me they shouldn’t but I guess it’s one of those ‘relationship’ things she is a ‘good’ person but sacrifices herself which in the end or even the beginning does not really help either. That’s why in many ways I actuallly really like being ‘alone’ I pursue the things that really interest me. Personalities are so tricky (and damaged) the idea of fitting too ill fitting things together seems past impossible – at least for me. But I am a bit easier on myself about stuff like that I am alone I like it in many ways and it has advantages. Not perfect but what is anyway I let myself enjoy and appreciate what IS more than dwelling or wondering about what is NOT. At least some of the time. It’s almost midnight here night night.
Thanks for sharing these reflections about your life, Patrick.
nighty night patrick
I went to a movie last night, alone. I sat in an aisle seat, near the centre of the theatre. The theatre was about 3/4 full. The seat beside me was empty. Everyone could see I was alone, but incredibly it didn’t matter to me. I didn’t think they noticed nor cared. For the first time ever I enjoyed being in the public venue enjoying the movie with everyone else and content being by myself. It is an astounding development for me. All my life I’d beeb pathologically uncomfortable being alone in public.
Dear Anon, that is a great accomplishment. I recall being in high school long ago in my senior year having lunch in the cafeteria always hoping to see a friend at a table I could join. God forbid I would have to sit alone being stared at.
Just recently I was at the DMV license renewal and they called what I thought to be my number. I rushed up to the wrong number and returning to my seat of the waiting area I noticed a couple of guys looking embarrassed for me. I just shrugged it off with: “well, at least I got to stretch my legs.” Before I would have been mortified at making a mistake in front of a group.
Sorry. Anon was me, posting from a different computer.
Lunatic bitch has so far spent $600 on clothes and “snacks” (because food is so expensive in hawaii) of our money on a trip that the kid wanted to give her as thanks for helping him get through his phd. so i have sent her 5 angry texts, 4 angry emails about this. and i really don’t do the texting thing, ever. what can i say? i know i sound pathetic by putting this on the blog, but what the fuck ever. jesus fucking christ. there has never been any stopping her. just fucking insanity. she drains me. i am now on my 6th peanut butter and jelly sandwich. there was no reveling in the progress i keep making at the pi, there is just absurd, nasty survival with a fucking insane person.
Wow! Glad you could get out your frustration, if only on the blog.
I grok what you are going through . Keep posting.
Last night I had a real horrific dream that I was being attacked by several kids who were threatening to kill me. I did fight them off, but more and more of them joined in. According to Jim I was screaming in my sleep. I did wake after quite sometime, but was terrified that if I screamed, Jim would come and forcefully stop me, (my sense being that it would bring up his old feelings of a similar nature).
This morning I talked to him about it, and he said, I was screaming in my sleep, but he did not try to stop me. Wow!! that was a great relief … but I asked if it ever happened again to NOT try to stop me.
I remember as a kid I used to have this re-occurring dream, but apparently the first time it happened, I was screaming in my sleep. It went on for about a couple of hours according to my parents, my father called the doctor who (smartly) told then NOT to wake me. But it disturbed then greatly, so they carried me into their bed
But apparently it went on and on, so my father went over to my granny’s and told her, and she came over to be with me.
I do remember waking and so surprised to see my granny there and me being in my parents bed. I apparently said to my granny “What are you doing here?”
Not sure right now what all this is about, or even what might have precipitated it, but the feeling is still there and I feel like crying. Meantime, I thought it might help me to write about it on the blog.
For now … Jack
Writing can’t hurt…..Although looking at it another way, hopefully it does.
Larry: The act of writing for the most part does not hurt me, but re-reading (mine or others) can bring tears.
I’m not sure how to quite say this, since this is only MY experience, but crying and being angry and beating a pillow … even terror is not an experience I now run away from. For me, this is the ultimate benefit of Primal therapy.
I remember before coming to therapy, I subscribed to the “Primal Journals” and I distinctly remember an article by Vivian where she said having a “Primal” was no more of a ‘big deal’ than baking a chocolate cake. At the time I greatly resented that statement, and thought “having a Primal WAS/IS a big deal and was somewhat angry at her, saying that …. feeling that it was misleading.
Now I know exactly what she meant. However, it did take me quite some years to be able to get into having feelings (Primals) and them being ‘no big deal’ … in the sense that I now have no desire to run away from them. I can even embrace them.
Jack, good luck with the feeling.
Phil, I try to ignore the lab techs computer problems as often as possible. There are various blurbs in the daily hospital email message that everyone receives. Some are thanking personnel for their big efforts. or the power is going to go down again, etc. Someone put a thank you in about our newly hired lead who had suspiciously skyrocketed into that lead position. The Blurb said something like, “Thank you F! You always comes immediately to solve our computer problems!” Well, I used to solve their problems at the drop of a hat, mainly because the lab lead was so pushy and i am a doormat. But after they congratulated this jackass, I stopped with the drop of the hat response. HA! I absolutely hate those blurbs, congratulating people for doing what they are supposed to be doing. I feel it pits some employees against the rest. Anyway, where in Spain you went?
Otto , I am in a very small place of only a few thousand people half way between Madrid an Valencia. Things are going well so far; yesterday we had paella, and I played some tennis.
Labs generate a lot of data and are highly computer dependent. Problems can usually occur with the instrument interfaces to the lab network. Lab techs usually dislike IT people, who are know it all’s, who don’t want to release any info. They want everyone as dependent as possible to maximize their importance. That is what generally goes on.
I’m sure you wouldn’t be like that.
i sit here alone with the 2 dogs and cat,. since wife and kid went to hawaii. Ate too much barbeque that had no flavor, moved boxes of papers out of my room into the living room, in hopes that i can rearrange my bedroom better while sun remains in cancer and wife remains out of my hair. she always seems to get in my way whenever i attempt to do the smallest of things. I know for a fact that there is some truth to astrology because when the sun is in cancer, i always start taking care of my “house”. I started last week moving heavy computers around at work, organizing them so i could at least walk in the rooms where we keep all our old junk. Anyway. It will be difficult to take care of 3 pets and also go to work for 2 weeks. Poor dogs are not used to being alone very much at all. Will give them cannapet but i dont think it really works on the dachshund.
Jack, I really could not think of much more to say to you. I know the level of fear you are talking about. ouch doesn’t cover it.
Otto: there is nothing more to say … you said it all. If you know those depth of terror and are able to re-act that’s all I feel, is needed. Good luck to you also Otto..
Phil, I learned a long time ago that “users” know more than me. a piece of dirt knows more than me. take my wife, for example. no please, take her (i think that is dangerfield or the other guy). HA! I am sure some of the IT traits that you discuss above are seen in some of our guys, but your IT guys sound like that Computer Guy on Saturday Night Live. Lab people always seem happy to see me, not sure if it is because we are in high demand due to shortage of IT staff or if they really like us.
My son had some luck with one of those online dating sites. He found a girl who liked to do stuff he did, and their dogs got along famously, except when phdkid’s dog decided to bite the other dog for no apparent reason. more than once. It was heartbreaking to watch the tears stream down her face when she was saying goodbye to him for the last time, outside of her apartment. I was there to drive his car and stuff from up north down to L.A. so he could work on his phd. How tragic. Anyway, I guess some of those online dating things actually do work for some people. I am home without Z, and without her constant neediness always waiting to spring forth at any given minute, I got a lot of work done around the house today. not that she is a bad person. just fucking nuts, in my opinion.
was it something i said?
> I have a quiet day, mom seems to be adjusting gradually, and I am well up to schedule studying for my exam next wednesday.
> hardly any sun today, once more, so plenty of leisure time.
> washed some jacket etc, as part of preparation for upcoming trip to L.a., but there is a nagging feeling of fear..
> don’t know how to put my finger on it.
> sometimes it feels like I must be very cautious about things I should be doing in order to prevent some disaster to happen, and sometimes it feels like almost the opposite, like whatever I can think of doing it won’t change a thing, my world will fall apart bit by bit anyway, there is nothing good ahead…
> read a book about a lady relating about the psycosis she struggled with and the traumatic experiences she had during the times she got locked up in isolation cells and was tied up for a few days..
> her description of her paranoid thoughts and gradual loss of touch with reality did ring some chord deep inside of me somehow.
> i think part of it is relating to all the paranoia that I had to deal with while smoking pot, for years, and one other time when I took some pills which caused a mild temporary psychosis of thinking I could direct and read others peoples mind to some degree. that was in a centre to kick off the habit of drug use, when we did smuggle in some extra pills which at first made me feel euforic and then over the top..
> was worn off the next morning luckily, but I guess it made me very aware of how thin the line is between ‘normal’ and psychotic..
> specially at waking up in the morning I can feel so down it is scary.
> less so as I have grown stronger and know the moment I get up it wears off, and can be pretty active so not depressed, but there is some nasty feeling lurking there..
> hopelessness, or even despair, not feeling up to whatever, a nightmarish sense of upcoming disaster, all usually vague but with the potential of getting acute I am sure..
> all I can do is keep treading forward, and try to pprotect as best I can my loved ones, cats, family, myself, friends..
> and hope this trip and retreat will help me in dealing with some of this..
> gretchen said something about how we possibly have a very hard time accepting someone/a parent/mom/loved one, will die..
> that is probably very true, but it just struck me it is also linked to our own death being undeniably approaching at some point..
> it never seemed to worry me much, apart from the worry of feeling utterly alone.lonely when it would be about to happen, or the possible long suffering before it, but now some fear seems to be rising slowly to the surface, some fear going all the way back to being born and feeling I can’t make it, won’t make it, can’t take much anymore, might lose control and die…
> just before that feeling unfolds it shuts off on the few occasions I got in touch with it, always in dreams or fevers…
> it is related to the ultimate unbearable feeling of for example drowning or being asfixiated, sometimes trued just to hold my breath for as long as possible but then it becomes simply unbearable, don’t think anyone can hold his or her breath as the body simply takes over at some point..
> but it is that feeling,the sheer panic and terror and unbearability …
Want a surefire route to happiness? Maybe it’s time for a new approach. Be at my best with family and friends. Become the best version of yourself with Dr. Phil.
“What people are saying –Listen to their experience with Life Reimagined and find out what a coach can do.”
I am going to take advice from people that are as ugly and old as i am? no thanks, aarp.
Margaret, drowning is the worst.
> Otto, there must be so many horrible ways to die..
> i have heard once the body inhales water it is immediately over, all systems shut down..
> but of course before that, well…
> i once saw a scientific experiment on video, about a certain liquid so satured with oxygen, it became ‘breathable’.
> a mouse was immerged in it, no way to get to the surface, so the poor mouse had to go through the experience of drowning, or being about to drown, then finally inhaled the liquid, and then just kept swimming around under water, until the scientist fished it out, holding it by the tip of its tail, upside down, until it exhaled the liquid and could start breathing air again…
> that poor mouse must have had some horrible nightmares afterwards, and hopefully some nice ones too about swimming like a fish…
> any idea why you think drowning is the worst, Otto?
After a tip off from a friend, I recently found a really beautiful nature reserve close to where I live. While locally I’m within striking distance by car of 4 national parks, the immediate area round my city is something of a desert. And I love to walk in nature and have been missing it, so to hear about this reserve was great news. And it did turn out to be a real gem. Though artificially designed with lots of imported, exotic foreign plants and trees, including tall red woods, the reserve was a real pleasure to walk around – following it’s trails and making discoveries like a tree house and animal and insect sculptures. I’ve been back a few times, lastly a couple of days ago.
On this last visit I was annoyed to find that someone had scrawled graffiti over the welcome sign which said “I was here naked 6/7/16″. I thought about the work it was going to take the wardens to clean that up and also wondered about the mentality of some people who want to deface or destroy beauty. As I carried on walking through the reserve, I started finding more graffiti, which got increasingly sinister. An information post had scrawled over it ” I fuck kids” and “I rape kids”. Then later in the tree house I found “I fuck my son till he screams and bleeds.” I just sort of stared at this in bewilderment although I noticed I wasn’t feeling angry and wondered why, considering what I’ve discovered about my own history of abuse. I just wondered how some psychopath like this could destroy his own son’s life and then not only feel no shame about it but actually flaunt it. Later I discovered more graffiti on a bench that read “Was here naked. I liked it. MIght come back.” From then on I started having fantasies about coming back another day, catching this arsehole having one of his little jaunts, surreptitiously photographing him and taking the evidence to the police. I’m sure I would get real satisfaction out of sending this prick to jail. I’ve been thinking more and more in the last couple of days about spending time every day at the reserve to catch him. However, that could just end up being a colossal waste of my time, but it’s becoming more of an obsession.
The above is from David.
David: Your desire to punish, one way or another the person doing what he/she is doing (their insanity); BUT what made this person insane in the first place……… I suspect some insane cruelty upon him/her as a child. I personally, don’t see punishment as any means to bring about change. However, I can only speak for myself.
The madness of our child-rearing practices is were it all starts to go wrong. How might we turn the whole process around? I DON’T KNOW … but I have pondered the idea long and often.
I have suggested several times one POSSIBLE means … but that does not garner much by way of consideration. To and for me, there is something amiss in what we erroniously call CIVILisation. It being anything but “civil” IMO.
Having watched on PBS TV, a series of programs on “First Peoples”, about the first peoples on each of the continents. Archaeologist and Anthropologists are seemingly rapidly coming to understand that we homo sapiens and earlier versions of ourselves were, not as aggressive as first thought, and there was more interbreeding than originally imagined.
The feeling that grabbed me most was that from our earliest roamings of the planet, in it’s natural surroundings, was far more sane than the life in all our urban comminities. Yet we seem unable to want to reverse it. MY Primal feelings and thinking have brought me closer to now wanting something way more primitive. Just MY ponderings … knowing, I am also a part of the problem.
Jack, I agree with much of what you have to say. I’m sure my desire for punishment came out of some in-the-moment vitriol fueled by feelings about my own history. My father is dead, so I can’t confront him or express my anger at him directly, not that either of those things would have been helpful to me ultimately, I suppose. So I started to obsess about the idea that I could see some kind of justice done by getting this vandal I described in my post convicted. But whether or not this person actually carried out the acts that he described, the fact that deliberate, shameless sexual abuse happens is undeniable. I read an article in The Guardian recently which included the description of a couple who conceived a child for the sole purpose of sexually abusing them. People like this need to be stopped. But how is that done? By giving them free child rearing advice? I don’t think that will do it. So I share your quandary about how things can be turned around.
David: I agree with you that when feeling angry we tend to want to punish … BUT that is the vicious circle coined “act-out” Not that I am any better than anyone else.
Having used sex addition for most of my whole life I sure understand it’s purpose (pain-killer). For whatever reason I was never into younger teens or children. They wouldn’t have given me the kind of sex I craved … to KILL my pain. Was that more good luck than management? I guess so.
I do feel that I need to be reminded whenever I get into inappropriately expressing my feelings and my Jimbo keeps me well informed. I can swallow what he tells me, now, more than ever before, when all I would do is:- to try and remind him, he too is guilty of the same “Sin”.
I do find that this blog helps me also. Just keeping, best as I am able, to be as straight as I know how. For me it’s a process … not an end game.
I wrote a while ago about cutting off a friendship with a female friend of mine who’d rejected my advances. I told her I couldn’t be friends with women I’m attracted too. Since then I’ve been back twice to the dance class that we have both frequented. She was there both times, which I expected as I knew she helped out with the set up and took the money on the door. Initially we were both good natured with each other, but didn’t really talk with each other at length. But then later after the class while we were socializing, I felt there were subtle power plays coming from her, that she was trying to assert her popularity over mine in a power struggle to claim the class as her “turf” verses my turf. This made me less and less inclined to want to talk to her. The next time her new boyfriend was there, which made class no fun for me whatsoever. I could see him react defensively towards me went I first arrived and I spent the whole class trying to stay as physically far away from both of them as possible. Which fortunately wasn’t that hard as it was a large class that week. I didn’t bother staying around to socialise afterwards and went straight home. About a week later I got a call from her boyfriend when I was having coffee with a friend. I had chatted with him after class about a year ago and we’d exchanged numbers so I recognised his caller ID on the phone. I didn’t take it as I don’t want to talk to him and don’t know why he would want to talk to me, though I’ve remained curious. I’m going to go back to that class again this week, maybe for the last time. I just don’t see any point, though it saddens me that I could lose out on something I enjoy a great deal and also miss out on a great way of being around people and meeting new people.
Since I cut off this friendship, my primaling has tapered off considerably, back to it’s more usual “ticking over” rate of about once a week. When I do feel, often now in response to health issues that have dogged me for years, it goes back consistently to the sexual abuse issues with my father. I’ve been using photos of myself as a child which have worked to either get me into feelings or deepen feelings when I’m in them. These photos that were taken around the time of the abuse have an added meaning and poignancy to them now that I know more of what I was going through at that age. I find I want to hold and cuddle the child that I was, and tell me/him that it’s going to be ok. I want to comfort and take care of that child that I was. I want to hold him in my arms and comfort him and cradle him and stroke his hair. None of which I remember getting from my parents.
Hello David. I notice a similar development happening with me. Yesterday I looked at an unguarded selfie taken about 6 years ago while I was setting the exposure and timing on my camera and using myself as a test subject. I see in my face the big load of pain I was carrying following the death of my wife the previous year, but at that time not able to acknowledge and be fully conscious of. I just want to wrap my arms around that guy who I was and help him feel secure to feel his immense shock and hurt. No one can make his hurt go away. He has to experience his way through it. I find I feel generous and caring towards him and want to be there for him through his painful adjustment to his new reality. It’s a change in attitude for me, because in the past I never liked the me who I saw in photos. These days I have better understanding of the pain I’ve been carrying and feel more caring for the guy who I was.
About that nature reserve that you discovered, it may be that the person who wrote those shocking comments may not have actually carried out those acts described. The person’s motive in writing that stuff might be to sabbotage anyone’s enjoyment of the park, maybe as a way to strike back at a society and life that the defacer doesn’t feel privileged to be part of.
As for the ending of the so called friendship with that woman, I feel that in a sane adult world you should both be able to accommodate each other in both continuing to go to the class that you both enjoy.
Larry, thanks for your comments. I think you might be right that the graffiti was for some kind of vindictive shock value. I had thought that subsequently, but when I first saw it I just took it all at face value. And it stayed with me as the most prominent impression, that this person simply meant exactly what they wrote. Which would make sense I suppose in light of my history…
Though I’ve never had the kind of relationship you’ve described with your wife, I relate to those feelings of self caring and have noticed a similar change in myself recently. That I’m generally more compassionate and kinder towards myself, and don’t give myself as much of a hard time. It feels healthy.
Like I said, I will give the class another try. Hopefully things can be worked out, but if it’s no fun then there’s no point.
> are you sure you want to miss out on that class because of them?
> is it not possible to focus on the other people and on the dancing?
> it sounds like a shame to lose out on the class..
> what do you worry about?
Margaret, you’re right that it would be shame to miss out on the class. Indeed it would! And I’ll be giving it another go. Maybe he isn’t there every week. The last class I was pretty anxious about going, and when I got there I found out I had left the pants I use for dancing in at home. I remember when cycling home and then cycling back how … desperate, actually, I felt to be there and that I wasn’t going to be someone who hid and would do everything I could to enjoy myself. Well, that proved pretty challenging, even if amongst 40 odd people there were times when I could focus on other people and get something out of it.
What do I worry about is a good question. I guess I worry about their power to hurt me, though there were no signs at all that they had any such intension to do that. I worry about saying something to them out of pain or anger that leads to me being seen in a bad light by other people. Maybe what I’m really worried about is being in a situation where I have so little control. Feeling powerless. So I can see there being a purpose in being there, for therapeutic reasons if for nothing else.
drowning is one of the worst. what they do to lab animals where i work is probably gruesome. and they are going to expand it. i feel powerless to do anything about it. dont know why the idea of drowning scares me, maybe saw some person drowning kittens as a kid and i understood what was going on. one other fear i have is of being locked in a safe. horrible.
Very quiet around here, I imagined the retreat was going on (4th July) but from what Margaret says that does not seem to be the case. Anyway maybe partly to just create controversy but I did find this ‘funny’ and also I believe quite insightful. It should at least get Jack going I picture him there checking the blog a few 100 times a day and just waiting to pounce or any unwary passerby (like me) esp of course if any ‘doubt’ is cast on PT. Not that this does really but Jack seems to think when I go on about ‘hoaxes’ it is some kind of code for a primal hoax. Which only exists in his mind………… Oh well so be it I suppose I thought this maybe worth whatever grief will come my way…….
Babysitting dogs and cat, finishing off my Chinese food feast from last night. Rarely get Chinese food for reasons i dont care to go into. Tiny bit of free time after using room at PI so I stopped at Target to get socks i needed 6 months ago. Some ma and pa berating their cute little 3 year old, “listen to me, are you listening to me, I don’t want to hear what you think (about some fascination the kid had in the store). Heartbreaking, but I am too much of a wuss to say more than Hi kid, and he really didnt hear me, and then under my breath Calm the fuck down as i walked past the mom. I was afraid to say anything to her because the dad was a copy-cat abuser like her, i heard him halfway down the aisle talking shit to the kid, and i was afraid of him, so all i could mutter is, to think that if they were following some advice if he was autistic, which he did not seem to be, or hyper, which he did not seem to be, and i muttered “but keep it up and he will be”. whatever. not much i can do in those kind of situations. maybe that is one reason i avoid going into stores like Target. low class people? dont know. i could have stopped and talked to the mom, “what a handsome little boy, how old is he?” but that is not me. Z can talk to complete strangers, I run from them. anyway. i dont want to write about my tears today, but i will in a while.
Sorry, Patrick, that guy was just too boring. If he wanted to have someone listen to his theory, he needs a half-naked woman reading from cue cards. Actually for some reason, i thought it was going to be a comedy segment. oh well. it could be re-written into a comedy segment, if someone had the time. By the way, I think the most infamous hoax of all time, is when someone says to a kid, “you know, your mom and dad really love you, but they just can’t show it”.
Otto: Tweety the bird “I taught I taw a purdy chat …… Naw … it was just another hoax. I tink Alice met him down de rabbit hole … Griffin … with talons and the body of a lion or someting or tother”
You know who
Well Otto I didn’t find it boring though I can see a person is into this kind of stuff or not. And most people are not so I understand that. To me though it is beyond interesting
Otto: Yeah!!!! ain’t that the great hoax of all. …… Sadly, some don’t see that one, they are too busy looking for others … it seems.
Words like ‘sad’ and ‘seems’ have pretty much lost all meaning in your hands. ‘Sad’ is to show how ‘sensitive’ you and are and how ‘feeling’ you are kind of a disguise and a cover for the actual criticism and one up manship and then to ‘cover’ that even more in comes the ‘seems’……….gives a bit more ‘deniability’ as in ‘see I ONLY said it seems………as in it’s just my feeling’………….more posturing to show how ‘feeling’ you are (that’s always in the program). Meanwhile the content of what the guy is saying is as always out the window too much narcissism and self regard to ever much focus on any ‘content’ it’s just me me me me and not in such a good way imo……….so much ‘plausible deniability’ you might as well be in the CIA lol…………
A nice song and video
too many details to write. lets just say there was a good time, and then stuff started getting taken away from me, time and time again. too many times again. bb tried to tell someone in group once, the immensity of it. now i can see it. but too hard to feel the whole thing. it is always just under the surface though. people get taken away from me. my core feeling. rocks off.
Sylvia, the colors are fabulous!
Patrick, that was rude of me. It’s really good for you to be interested in something. sorry.
Otto I did not feel you were ‘rude’ you just said you found it boring most people do I pretty much expect that really. Not a problem at all. The thing is I have gotten away from my concerns about what ‘most people’ think it’s feels like I am mining on my own mostly though not entirely some people I really value and respect and better than dealing with the ‘sad and seeminglies’ with their fake ‘sensitivity’………….
Sylvia,does that song touch you in any particular way?
Yes, Otto. The song by Pearl and the Beard was in the movie “Hello, my name is Doris”, with Sally Field. I caught a glimpse of the words and thought it was a pretty melody too. The first words are: “Oh lovely daughter I’ve mistaken for a son
Rest your head upon my shoulder at once
Tell me all the world you found troublesome
You’re my particles and sweet electrons……”
My mom always thought she was carrying a boy when she was pregnant with me having so many boys before and she was dreading, not looking forward to having me, though once born she was surprised and glad I was here.
Here are the performers of that song
I feel so empty and being so close to the end of my fucking life.
tear. i would make a music video to rocks off if i could draw. picture this animated black and white maybe, 8th grade typing class 2 buddies next to each other typing to the beat of the music,looking at girls, my buddy a goofy looking guy with glasses smiling, me looking secretly at a girl in the class, the older teacherman with his toupee walking down the aisle, looking around or not.
Otto, I can picture that.
Here is a better address , maybe, for the video, Prodigal Daughter
Junior high was a time of hormones and rebellion, huh; a time of hoping to get invited to parties to play “spin the bottle” and listening to the mournful song “Sukyaki”.
then i guess, cut in a scene of old man me reminiscing, crying a little, which i just did.
I lost that. he dead
ok deep cry, not too long, cant be loud. no ecstasy yet.
that must be the 100th time today that i have listened to that song. how can it seem to be such an upbeat song and yet still have so much sadness in it?
song came out in 72. us druggies would sit around listening to that stuff. he was dead in 73.
Watching and hearing that song was sweet Sylvia!
Yes Leslie. It was cute to see the little girl follow the yarn thru the rose garden, along the sandy beach and onto the forest park to awaiting parents who obviously adore her, and warm her with their sweater. Very real, huh.
It is a tender, lovely song Sylvia. Thank you.
I’m still reading “Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life” by James Hollis, PH. D. He is a psychoanalyst in private practice. Those with several years of Primal Therapy under their belt probably have as much intuition or more than is gleaned from reading his book. I feel that some of the conventional psychoanalytic terms he uses obfuscate and fail to get to the core of the issue…namely the pain that drives us— terms such ego (which I see as our functioning self, …pain, defenses, weaknesses and strengths that get us through the life we chose), and complexes (which I interpret as patterns of behaviour we fall into in order to defend against our historical emotional pain). Nevertheless he does write beautifully and evocatively, and it is affirming to hear his views on life’s truths that we must all deal with.
For instance, on page 132, in the chapter The Family During the Second Half of Life, he writes:
“What would happen to our lives, our world, if the parent could unconditionally affirm the child, saying in so many words: ’You are precious to us, you will always have our love and support, you are here to be who you are; try never to hurt another, but never stop trying to become yourself as fully as you can; when you fall and fail, you are still loved by us and welcomed to us, but you are also here to leave us, and to go onward toward your own destiny without having to worry about pleasing us.’ ……..How each child could explore, experiment, falter, and regroup, without shame, without self-derogation, armed always by the experience of love and support, which one may carry as food for the soul in times of desolation and defeat that come to us all!”
Reading the above paragraph helped pry open more of my painful truth as I apprehensively contemplate navigating the next phase of my life. Next Spring I will retire from the work at which I earn my living. My job is meaningful to me. It’s usually enjoyable, and often challenging. It feels like a calling, like a chance to be myself in service to others in a way that interests me and feeds who I am. My work provides me with a place to go 4 days a week, provides me with companionable and interesting people to be with, gives my life structure and an 8 hours per work day usually interesting diversion from the rest of my life’s problems and emptiness. Away from work, such as on long weekends, I often feel overwhelmed by the challenges of how to fill my life.
Feeling empty and alone deep inside all day today, after I got home from work, I cried. I’ve never known the love and support of parents that Hollis describes, the “food for the soul in times of desolation and defeat”. I can never think of when I felt supported and strengthened by their love. If I’m honest, I realize I was afraid to be alone with them because unconsciously deep down I felt estranged from them. I was afraid to be alone with them and realize that the connection between us was absent. Unlike my siblings, I had a really hard time leaving home and making my way in life. Deep down inside I was afraid to leave because I was terrified to realize I never did have a home and felt alone, weak, frightened and empty to the core as I faced the big wide world before me.
This evening at home I cried feeling alone, empty and afraid as I contemplate going forward into the challenges of retirement. Though all my life before Primal Therapy bI blocked out awareness of it, this evening I cried more how much I need my Mom and Dad, though they are both now dead. I acknowledge that they gave me what they could, …a clean home, food on the table, and material comfort, but in my primal I said softly to them “I need more” and cried more deeply over the long buried recognition of my need for love and emotional connection from them, loving them but thinking of my needs first and no longer protecting them, no longer feeling guilty for calling out their deficiency and putting pressure on them to be the loving parents I needed, finally deeply saddened at seeing more clearly it was they who were defective and deficient and not able to be who I needed, and not I who was wrong and bad for needing them.
At the end of the feeling I cried the pain that defined my life, namely the absence that shriveled my soul and drove me to isolate from life, of their love and emotional connection with me, pain embedded in me because of their defectiveness as parents and not because of something wrong with me, but nevertheless a pain and emptiness during that time with them that is in my soul and is my truth forever. It feels ever so sad and yet like the healing of a self-inflicted self-limiting wound, to acknowledge that their defectiveness is the cause of my life long burden of fear and emptiness, not me. It is ever so sad that I was denied the chance to openly love them, and that they were never capable of experiencing their only one lifetime opportunity to love me.
Thanks Sylvia. I am glad your mom was glad you were here.
Larry, why you retire? As i read stuff on internet, many people cant afford to retire, or as you do, their work is their life. I am pretty much the same way at this point, my work is a big part of my life, there are people all around, the cafeteria food is terrible, but there is bustling life there. I can’t afford to retire, I have thought much about wanting to retire but what would i do, sort thru all my bills and papers day after day? go to the beach? mmm. i doubt it. my job is a pain in the ass a lot of times, and i am not sure if the work is meaningless or not, and i hate for an organization that tortures lab animals. well, no choice for me anyways. no money. there is a theory out that 2 months after men retire, they have a heart attack and die.
Larry that paragraph is so telling to read as a child who missed out on that love and support, and also comforting as a Mom whose sons are now out there in their /on their own journeys.
Your writing as always is so clear – getting right to the heart of how very sad it is – yes for all when love was not there…
i forgot to write something about this previously, or was too tired. Anyway, the thought struck me that LOCATION was my mom or parent or whatever. Being an orphan and left alone a lot of the time, i guess i transferred my need or imprint of parent to a room. FUCKING CAT IS HOWLING. DONT KNOW IF HE MISSES Z OR IF HIS MED WENT BAD DUE TO FRIDGE HAS STARTED TO DIE. Anyway, and i cant exactly find words for it, the room or house or place, like Hollywood, Long Beach, that assumed the role of mom cradling me in her arms (since no mom etc). I am too tired to go on with this. I just wanted to finally get it written down. Or maybe the Cancer women i was around very early in life had a thing about HOME. Mom, 2 Aunts, Grandma, Great Aunt, all Cancers. Some of them nurturing, some in their own rusty way. Not a real great image, always seeing my Grandma with her back to me, washing dishes or hanging up clothes on the clothesline, or esconced in her room with her religious show on the radio, because she was exhausted by life and still having to go to work at age 65, and all the way up to 70 years or more. Women. I just have indelible images of all the homes i have been in over the past 6 decades. ok got to sleep and do it all over again. Count all the computers into the mainframe computer, and then do it again next year, if i have not retired face down in the hall at work.
Patrick, did you take a canary down with you in the mine? Preferably, a canary who has been proven to sing. In case of noxious stuff that the bird can sense and tell you to get the f out of there. Generally, I don’t think birds should be in cages, however I think you could use a little companionship down there in that deep dark mine, of which you said you are mining on your own. Feel free to share any nuggets of gold you find down there, and come up for the sunshine sometimes. I have a picture of my uncle when he was young, in front of a tent. He once told me he used to go out to the desert here in California to find turquoise. He eventually drank himself to death, probably never got over the death of his wife, my aunt, and maybe their 2 boston terriers, or maybe it was only one.
Otto – Neil Young said it better than I could ever hope to and I suppose with me more than a ‘heart of gold’ I am breathing mostly coal dust and ‘working’ dawn to midnight for little enough ‘reward’………….
Black cat licking steak grease off my plate. It is ok because the fungal med he is on today requires fat and a full belly to work. he seems happy enough. he gives me reason to live.
Larry, I forgot to tell you, if anything i said sounded like advice, please disregard it. My advice to myself for the past 50 or so years has been instrumental in my misery.
Keep writing Otto. I want to give you a hug just for responding.
Off topic (and then again perhaps not so much):
If Hillary Clinton will win the national elections the US, Germany and the UK will all be headed by women. This is unprecedented – the western world will pretty much be, and for the first time, led by women.
I think it’s wonderful.
Daniel: A great thought … BUT the last woman, Thatcher, was an ‘Iron Lady’ and like her freind and compatriate (Ronnie) died of dementia. This one doesn’t seem to me, from watching her bluster outsie 10 Downing Street, to be that much more feminine.
I do feel that the male of this spiecies hasn’t done a great job for mankind as a whole, but then I doubt Hilary could be worse … and cetainly not as stupid as her potential rival … Donald T.
I’m looking forward to a ‘three ring circus’ next Monday … That should be fun.
Daniel – I wish I could be so optimistic. Hillary Clinton I feel sure in saying is going to be a disaster for the US and maybe more to the point places like Syria and Iran (though it’s very bad already) and may well push us towards a war with Russia. We are talking WW3 there. Also I think the woman factor will work against her and us in that she will be keen to show she can bomb away as good as any man. We KNOW that already she does not need to ‘prove’ that but prove it she will I fear.
I think we ‘console’ ourselves with stuff like this women presidents, gay marriage etc etc when to me what Otto says is more to the point, all insects dying it seems all life in deep trouble in this transgender future that is supposed to be so wonderful. To me it’s just another bad ‘sign’ a sign of life on the skids
Has Merkel shown any particular ‘wisdom’ in Germany I don’t think so though it’s hard for any German leader to make sense nowadays the people have been so brain washed about their own ‘evil’ which is so far from the truth imo…………..anyway or as Jack mentioned Maggie Thatcher was to me at least a kind of horrible war monger who used ‘cheap and easy’ wars (Falklands) to get her way. A lesson not lost on the likes of Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld and who just about destroyed what was good about Britain (all imo of course does that need to be said? probably so as my first and major critic would point out that ‘obvious’ he likes to pound on the ‘obvious) anyway I gotta go but the fact we will now have THREE women (UK is just about to get Theresa May) means nothing either good or bad but I would tend towards the ‘bad’ it’s like any leadership is lost and we are meant to ‘all just get along’ in this feminized world but we won’t (get along) that is…
If my memory serves me right I feel that I was far from your first critic. Wasn’t that your mother??? And there were others at GG including you original partner … when in those days I was (foolishly) defending you, at a time some were wanting to go on strike, because of your mean behavior … so they claimed
You are far too pre-occupied with and about me. I surely can’t be that important to either you, Gentle Giant or even on the Primal blog. Not even for a blog article contributor, since you got one way before me. However no ‘skin off my nose’ … just a thought … keep at it if you must.
Otto and Leslie, thank you for your responses to my July 11 post, in which I had written how I had looked inward at emptiness, at feelings and truths that I had carried but denied and had been blind to for decades, That when I risked expressing them here in your genuine humanity you heard and responded, emphasized for me even more the chasm between my parents and I so big and so early in my life that I have almost no memory of ever reaching out to them knowing very early that they couldn’t see me. Your responses in contrast made my lifetime lack of connection loom even larger such that I had difficulty sleeping that night. I’ve been crying out more of the need and emptiness today. It’s unbelievable that it’s possible after a lifetime of needing, to stop hoping, to stop blindly pretending, to stop running and to face more the truth and accept that I and little Larry will never get what we need emotionally from them. It’s possible for me to accept and find and meet my needs through other people (though hard for me to do), but little Larry is forever doomed—had and has no one but me.
Otto, your ‘advice’ regarding my retirement was fine. I saw it more as you exploring realistically what your job and retirement means to you. I feel you were pretty honest about it.
Some people ask me why am I still working. Others ask why don’t I keep working.
My boss retired last summer. A couple of technician colleagues who I’ve worked alongside for 21 years retired this Spring, one along with his boss. Several technicians who I eat lunch with will retire this fall, and a few more in a year or two. Another scientist, who has become my administrative supervisor for now, will retire next summer. Most of my cohorts whose companionship helped fill my workday have left or are leaving. Although work this summer has been fun and interesting, there is gradually less of it and I’m gradually less challenged as the nature of the work changes under the biologist I’m currently helping. I dread being bored and just putting in time because I’m afraid of retirement. Also, I don’t have the same energy and don’t want to work as long and hard as I did when I was young, so I don’t relish working for soon to be hired young new scientists at the start of their career. I want to learn to have and enjoy other aspects of life.
If I could I would stay at my job part time, but there is no such option available. Last September I signed up for a retirement transition program. In it I work 4 days a week. I like 4 days a week. I think 3 would feel even better, and about right. The maximum allowable duration of the retirement transition is two years, to September 2017, after which I have to retire. But instead of retiring in 2017 just before winter, I’ve decided to retire next spring with summer still ahead of me.
There are always life challenges we have to take on, that I dreaded but have been worthwhile. Retirement is another big challenge that I dread, that will be difficult at first but I hope will become worthwhile. It’s bringing up LOTS of feelings, but so far the main undercurrent is that I want to face it.
Larry: I remember as my 60’s rolled on, and thought I was NOT going to retire. It seemed to me at the time that retirement was a sort of ‘death knell’. I thought to remain as active as I was able until such times as I needed to slow down … due to whatever. But then as 67 arrived and I was able to apply for pension having done my 40 quarters and paying my taxes. I did decide to sort of retire least-ways from the kind of work I had been doing.
It then became clear that I was now free to do whatever I liked within the confines of my pension; visiting, travelling, and blogging. I had in my younger days been an avid photographer in the days of what I called ‘wet photography’. My expertise was theatrical portraiture if expertise was any accolade. Strangely, even though I had a digital camera, the inspiration did not hit me.
It became a case of doing what turned up for me on a daily basis. In hindsight I feel that planning for retirement is a forlorn task, and worse trying to anticipate what it might feel like is equally forlorn. I did continue with retreats for a few more years and treated them as my yearly holiday. Then at one point felt “been there, NOW have done that”.
Philosophically I feel that hoping for, and planing for (except in the short run, say for a trip) the future is part of that ‘Primal Hope’ That’s not to say that I don’t have fantasies about things; I do, but if they don’t turn out as I had hoped … no big deal.
Of course all this is just me and our circumstances are very different. But hoped by giving my “two pennuth” It might inspire ideas.
Larry, just a quickie. You do some work with insects, right? I just saw a quck title on yahoo today about ALL the insects are dying off, not just bees and the other ones. Here in L.A., we always see the lone butterfly flitting about, desperately looking for a mate. Sad. And absolutely no more bugs you know the red beetles, funny cant remember what they are called, you buy a bucket of them to eat aphids in your garden. you buy them and then the birds eat them all. However we did see more of those little yellow moths this year, at least i did, the kind that you catch by the wings and get yellow dust on your fingers. there is always one of those big bumbly shiney flying bugs, has a sort of irradescent green coat. anyway, i always like seeing the few bugs left, except flies and mosquitoes which always go for my sweat or blood or who knows what. or maybe your work was not with bugs. whatever.
Otto: I’ll let Larry fill you in on the other bugs, but the red ones I think you were talking about we call them “Lady birds” but I think here in the US you call them “lady bugs”. Hope those were the ones you meant. And Yeah I think we over did the DDT. I feel we humans are making a grand mess of the whole planet. Someone tell me I wrong; but sadly I feel I might (for once) be right.
Regarding those red beetles, Otto, I’m with Jack, sounds like you are talking about Lady Bugs or also called Lady Birds. Yeah, they love to eat aphids. But I would park on the ‘maybe not’ pile that bit of Yahoo info that all the insects are dying off, leading to your observation that there are no bugs left in LA. Here is a quote from an interesting article in the April 20, 2016 issue of the New Scientist magazine.
“City streets, industrial sites, parks and gardens were once seen as biological deserts. But their nooks and crannies are turning out to be rich in species………..Los Angeles is home to one of the most diverse ecosystems in the world,” says Brian Brown, the LA museum’s curator of entomology. The city sits in one of the planet’s top 35 biodiversity hotspots. But LA isn’t alone. Across the world, urban landscapes “are as important for biodiversity as ancient woodlands”, says Matt Shardlow of the UK conservation group Buglife.”
Larry, funny, they just started offering retirement transistion program where i work. I guess the millenials are going to be up shit creek without a paddle as all of us baby-boomers retire. We have been hoarding all the knowledge for ourselves, so they will have to figure it out for themselves. I am not saying the baby-boomers are the biggest hoarders, that title could be claimed by…I don’t know…no creativity striking me. obviously not potato-hoarders though. no need to hoard potatoes, all the potato bugs are dying off.
Are you saying you think there won’t be enough millenials to fill all the knowledge positions vacated by the boomers? Hmmm, I never thought of that before.
Otto and Jack, retirement scares the s— out of me if I’m honest with myself, but so did the prospect of my wife dying scare the wits out of me. Both have to do with change that I dread. More and more I’m absorbing the shock and pain of death, feeling the full blow of being hit by it, helpless. Maybe eventually the change brought by retirement will seem tame in comparison.
Hearing this song Renegades this morning brought tears to my eyes. When my wife and I left LA to venture out into the world on our own, with Primal Therapy under our belts, I felt like we were renegades, out to make a life our own way, following our own rules. I couldn’t have done it without her. Where does it all go now?!
Larry: Having met you and gone out for dinner with you twice, I have more confidence in you than you seem to have of yourself. Just my feeling; BUT since you did achieve what seemed like a great relationship between you and Noreen, I feel strongly that you would be able to get another.
There are lot of people, and women (you prefer to call ladies) out there doing shopping, resting and taking in the weather on park benches and even just causally walking in the streets. There’s a great chance you’ll meet someone else. Of course no-one will ever take Noreen’s place …. that is obviously very very special to you.
You don’t have to be lonely. Loneliness is just suffering alone-ness … and yes, in your instance it is a major part of your painful past in childhood … which I see as devastating. However, apparently there is a sign at the institute, with an arrow depicting a direction for “Change” You’ve done a great deal of therapy, and I feel you are capable of bringing that about in your pending retirement. I would suggest that you don’t dwell on how it might be. Let it take it own course of events.
Of course that is very easy for me to say … quite another to actually put that into effect … but not impossible. I wish you all the good fortune for your future, Larry.
Patrick, I was listening to some Neil Young the other day, and I thought i was going to start listening to him more again, then i forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder. Me and another patient played and sang Old Man back in the days when there was still a Primal Talent night. Unfortunately, my short-term partner died a bit later, a countryman of yours, U.O’R. r.i. p. sad sad sad
Otto, Your right… So sad . I think of UO’R so often! Gretch
Gretch and Otto: I was trying to think who U.O’R was then it hit me. Was it Ulrick? I worked on moving Jobs with him and I too was very sad when he died. He was a very sweet guy.
no. dont know ulrich. ultan
Otto” Sorry yes Ultan
yep. gretchen. poor guy
> Phil, how are you doing on your holiday?
> I feel tired right now.
> all seems to come together.
> yesterday did my exam, felt I knew the course pretty well, but the questions are often so unclear and confusing I am not sure what to expect from the results.
> afterwards sat down with a university assistant to look at the new make up of the website, the organisation of my next course, philosophy, and all the difficulties of the site to work with the screenreader. we discovered a lot of unlabeled buttons and menu options, and links only assigned t
> with a visual icon and one letter, g, f, c, which of course does not help me to know where it leads to…
> but in any case going over it with someone who could explain some of the stuff did help..
> he only had the test version of the website so far, so looking at it from inside a course was new to him too and useful to be able to point out some flaws.
> today had to go with my cats to the vet for a check up, one of them had a sore front paw, and after waiting a few days and it still not being well I decided to have it checked.
> just that morning it was occasionally a bit better seemingly, but decided to go anyway and take the other one too as next month they would have had to go so might as well do o
> it all now.
> of course it is a big stresssful undertaking to manage to get two big cats into their travel cases just in time to get into the car and get to teheir appointment, but I managed to do so and gave them some cat yummy nibbbles in their cage to comfort and award them for being so cooperative.
> the paw was probably sprained and did not need treatment as it was improving, they both were otherwise fine and the vet said they looked like being taken care of really very well, and hey, I did manage to not have them vaccinated this year, with all the talking about it since last year with them, and them evaluating the value of it differently for cats who mix and mingle outdoors or who don’t interact with strange
> cats, they changed their policy into skipping a year whenever possible and giving the minimal treatments in general.
> so it was nice to have my cats back home safe and sound and healthy, and I had a nice lunch with the girlfriend who had driven us.
> we talked about our mums, hers died last year, and at some point, when at the end my conclusion about mine was ‘I wished I had an adult and happy mom’, I was about to cry, it seemed to be the nail on the head, and she gave me a good hug.
> later on I thought I might have added an adult and happy mom who c
> would like and support me..why do I say like and not love?
> probably because she can be so critical in general, and tends to turn things into arguments..
> can someone love someone and at the same time not like them ? I guess so, if it is just some aspects that are not liked..
> oh well,…
> but then, after all of that, I called the home for a chat and maybe to encourage mom to join the folk dancing that was the activity of the afternoon, but I got a cheerful caretaker on the phone who told me she had just convinced my mom to join the dancing.
> so that felt great.
> was talking to halfsitster on the phone when my brother called, o
> all of it while my cleaning lady also had arrived and was doing the rooms where my cats did not hide , as I had asked her to give the cats some rest after the scare of the morning, so anyway, had to end call with sister to take brothers, and he said he a
> had had an urgeint message to come to the home, luckily he was nearby in my mom’s house, as mom was freaking out and wanted to leave.
> turns out she had started to get worked up at the c
> dance for not having her handbag there with her, which was up in her room of course, and she threw such a tantrum they had to take her there and look for the handbag,a nurse and social worker present, and as mom wanted to pack and leave they called my brother and the doctor who happened to be there anyway..
> my brother was telling me all of that and then he had to hang up the phone as the doctor arrived in my mom’s room.
> I waited a while but then called back, as it occurred to me they should watch our mom who gets her medication in a little plastic jar together with her evening meal, but she is capable to throw it in the toilet.
> so I told my brother to let them know they should keep an eye on her taking the pills.
> as when they htink she has taken them and still becomes hard to deal with, they might increase the dose or add a tranquilizer, while the real problem is she did not take her meds in the first place possibly.
> when I had my mom on the phone she had already forgotten about the whole fuss..
> at the same time we, me and brother talked about the options for the furniture and little belongings as there are various offers and posssibilities.
> more aggravating things happened, likesmartphone playing up and acting crazy, but to keep it short, well, sorry, not so short, a bit hectic and chaotic all of it.
> oh yes, forgot to say some phone calls got interrupted twice by someone else offering me some kind of volunteer job and wanting an appointment…
> now feel tired but also tense, will have to unwind bit by bit, will have another call from brother at some point and maybe halfsister as well, some little chores to do and then play with cats to calm down and to start feeling some of the nicer sides of life..
> f.. weather still very unstable and chilly at times, heavy rain showers, even some hail…..
> grr sigh..
> M and cats
> sequel from this afternoon:
> my brother just called and told me about the talk he had there with the head nurse and one of the social workers there.
> they complained about our mom trying to walk out three times on saturday, but every time someone noticed it and brought her back before she got out on the street, and said she also wanders around at night naked and goes into other people’s rooms.
> they said she causes distress..
> they talked about the ‘protected ward’, and to not get into an argument immediately my brother agreed to go and have a look at it, he told me it is nice and clean but said the people who live there are all in wheelchairs and a lot of them more or less like plants.
> he said to me no way I will agree to let her be moved to that ward, but let’s play it like I did this afternoon, saying we will discuss it in the family and come back on it later on.
> the main thing is he followed my advice and told them they should not leave mom’s medication simply in a plastic containrer by her evening meal and leave it up to her to take it, as all these stories seem to point to the possibility she simply did not take her medication, as normally she would be fast asleep if she did.
> and an empty container is no proof she took it, they must watch her take it as otherwise she throws it away for sure. she does not like having to take meds so definitely does not take it voluntarily.
> also he told them they should not leave all doors wide open all day, anyone can walk in and out and the gates of the parking lot are wide open, and the garden is not even fenced.
> if only they would put some automatic system on the gate that would solve a lot..
> he also told them she has only been there for three weeks and deserves more time to adjust.
> it is painful and upsetting they want to put someone in a closed ward just for being a bit of a handful occasionally..
> but today my brother witnessed she had to take her meds under supervision, so hopefully that solves the problem.
> and anyway, say that that would not be the case, to avoid her roaming around at night it seems to me it would still be better to give her a light sleeping tablet then, than to put her in a ‘protected’ ward between people who are mentally almost gone, and the doors locked.
> that would be horrible, and cruel, and I don’t think we could in any way agree to it at this point, or in a nearby future.
> but I think it was a wise idea of my brother to just go along a bit in being ‘understanding’ and empathic about it not being easy, but to come back on the medication regularly and just keep postponing forever to agree to anything like what specially that one social worker seems to want.
> that one is a bit of a woman that wants no problems whatsoever, and sees problems everywhere.
> mom has been adjusting so far, they should accept some people are a bit more difficult but not necessarily only fit for a protected ward.
> i hate to imagine what it would t
> do to our mom who can be very clear a lot of the time to discover she has been locked inthere, even if they take them to places and to the cafetaria regularly.
> we will keep opposing diplomatically and let’s hope things arrange thmeselves over time…
> mom was easily calmed down once my broehter was there, she can be a handful and actually hard to handle and stubborn like a mule, but well, they are professionals, and should find ways to deal with it other than to lock them up..
> boy this is painful and scary, glad my brother handled it so calmly, but I feel sure he must feel bad inside as well.
> hopefully mom gets less rebellious, and hopefully it was because the meds were not taken and things sort themselves out now..
> will try to let it go for now, still very tired but now also worked up……
I hope your mother doesn’t have to go to the protected ward. Maybe if you and your brother keep working against it, that won’t happen.
I have been enjoying my vacation here in Spain, relaxing a lot, eating well, something easy to achieve. More difficult is to do better with the language. I studied quite a bit the last year but only notice a slight improvement if anything.
My vocabulary is decent but I don’t do that well putting it into use. I mostly end up saying only what I need to say and not much more.
The problem is although I would like to be fluent in Spanish, I just can’t make the effort needed to achieve that level because of the struggle it will take to talk more with people.
That has always been the problem and I don’t see a way around it. I just don’t feel like trying to talk to people that much if I don’t have to, and I don’t, as when I’m here, it’s only for vacation.
I visited Miguel in Seville, and that was a lot of fun.
We are watching the news of the latest terroroist attack, or whatever it was with horror.
This Sunday I’ll be leaving for home with my son. He’s ready to go but I’d like to stay longer.
> I feel so tense, depressed and scared.
> I don’t want our mom to end up in a protected ward before it is the proper place for her to be taken care of there, and in my opinion that is not at all the case so far.
> it is a dreadful idea some of the staff membes there seem to be inclined to do so..
> what can we do?
> opppose and procrastinate and follow up if they give the medication in the proper way, and also if they then help my mom with putting her nightgown on etc. as she needs that when the meds start working..
> we have already given notice to her landlord and are in the middle of giving away her furniture and stuff..
> it weighs on me terribly at this moment, saddens me and scares the hell out of me.
> thanks for the update about your vacation, it sounds like despite the language limitations you are having a good time.
> and being in the midst of so much spoken Spanish must inevitably improve your knowledge bit by bit, by simple assimilation, I would think at some point it must get a little easier to start speaking just a bit more.
> i can imagine though it must be hard, I would also be reluctant to get engaged in a conversation I cannot keep up with, i already have that due to my bad hearing, when there is too much noise I rather act as if talking does not interest me, as it is so embarassing to lose part of what is being said. that is a very unpleasant situation to be in..
> as for my mom I just heard from my halfsister who had an uncle in a similar situation, they need the family’s consent to move someone to a protected ward, and at this point they are certainly not about to get it!
> knowing that has taken some of the edge of my worry, but today I feel exhausted and lonely and so far have done not much more than some phone calls and listening to an audio book.
> not very satisfying but feel up to not much else..
> cat’s paw is still getting better, luckily!!
> feel a bit reluctant to call mom but will do so anyway to check on her, give her some support and ease my own loneliness a bit hopefully…
> just called mom and she was nice, clear and friendly.
> she saw people in the garden through her window and told me she wanted to go outside and join them, and when I said she should simply warn the nurse on her ward when she did, so they would not worry about her, she made no problem of it, was reasonable about it and promised to do so.
> but just then her evening meal arrived, already at 4.30 pm..
> I know it does not mean they have to be there and eat it necessarily at that hour, as they keep the tea or coffee warm until the resident is ready to eat, but in any case I was glad she decided to stay and eat..
> it is sad,she wants simple things, to be out, with people, have a good time and a reasonable feeling of freedom, and wants to know and understand what goes on, which sometimes is of course very difficult with her memory and mental limitations at her age..
> as she sounded so calm and pleasant, I hope it is because of the medication they gave in the proper way yesterday evening, as in that case the problems should diminish when they keep doing so accurately, and the harassing us about the ‘protected’ ward will hopefully cease.
> it is sad to imagine her there tomorrow, no activities planned on saturday, if I would be able to drive up there I would go and go for a nice walk with her, but it is very expensive to go there by taxi and then still on my own I would get lost as she is not good anymore at knowing the way either..
> will go on tuesday with my half sister and on sunday her boyfriend usually takes her for a walk.
> I feel so protective of her, specially now knowing there seem to be a few staff members looking for causes for complaints..
> also they never took her to the piano and it won’t be moved upstairs either, too little space right now..
> so of course she tries to find ways to be busy, on a day like saturday when nothing happens and her state of mind limits the initiatives she could come up with, like inviting Niske to do something together..
> there is a big pool of sadness and fear I have no direct access to right now, some despair too I guess..
> waking up already feeling depressed and hearing about the truck massacre in Nice with all the child victims and 50 children in hospital did not help to feel more hopeful..
> still some of the gloomy mist seems to be lifting , hopefully a good night’s sleep will help, but hey, bad weatherforecasts again for the coming days, f…
> a lousy spring and summer so far over here!!
Margaret – I hesitate to be a ‘broken record’ on this NIce business and must admit I have not had much time or resources to look at or into this as I am still travelling (just arrived in Ireland but not home yet for a few days) anyway the bits I have seen scream ‘fake’ all over again. You have ‘bodies’ on the streets that look exactly like dummies in these weird poses legs kind of splayed apart, dressed in it seems mostly their underwear. LIke are we really supposed to take this seriously. They also have a kind of pseudo “Crucifiction” pose like is this meant to along with pumping fake fear everywhere also in the process mock Christianity. Even mix up the Crusifiction with almost some ghastly pornography kind of theme.
This again screams hatred of Christianity and Jesus………………which as usual would seem to be a Zionist agenda and nothing to do with so called Islam or Muslims. Any Talmud readers would be able to explain this better than me. Maybe Gretchen or Barry or Daniel could have a go at this and ‘explain’ it a bit to us since they are Jewish. I say this not in a sarcastic way but in all seriousness they might be able to…………..because for me at least we seem to be dealing with a hatred and absurdity which is beyond me
Gretchen and Barry are unavailable for comment, they’re still laing low in a Nice safe house and can’t break radio silence. As for me, I’m in our command and control center consulting my Talmud. I’ll get back to you once I’m finished with all this porno-crusifiction
Daniel: Keep us, at least me, informed. Certainly about all the porno; even though all that stuff has now passed me by. “To long in the tooth” as they say in my nick of the woods.
I just hope they are paying you enough to run that ‘command and control center’, AND hope you too are keeping safe in your bunker … you never know who’s just around the corner. 🙂 🙂 .
quote:- “…………..because for me at least we seem to be dealing with a hatred and absurdity which is beyond me”.
That about sums you up, at least psychologically. Ever since you came onto this blog you’ve been spewing hate and anger beyond any ones ability to stop you. So I suppose in that respect you are talking from deep within yourself.
As for the fakery I am astounded that you can believe that such massive incidents can be staged, and so many of them. Does it not get you to look somewhat inwards towards yourself???
Other than you obsession about me, the obsession for hoax’ and fakery seem a little out of balance, for someone that pretends to have a semblance of the world around (you).himself.
In some quarters it’s called “being off ones rocker” AND yes!!! I left mine … some four score years ago. 🙂 🙂
> finally the dam cracked and I was able to have a cry.
> what triggered me was reading a John Irving book, Avenida de los misterios’, in which at some point a young girl deliberately goes into an old lion’s cage, with the intent to be killed for a lot of different reasons not matttering here.
> then the lion, who only gave her one quick bite in the neck as she provoked him intentionally by impeding him to get to his food, but who only ate the food and then left her alone after the deadly bite, sits in the far corner of the cage, looking sorry and guilty and scared.
> his owner goes up to him and shoots him twice in the head..
> the idea of that poor lion in its corner, scared and actually innocent in his way, wanting to be good and longing to trust but having noone around he can trust, really got to me..
> I cried hard and long, sadness and hopelesssness prevailing, no clear primal memories but that is often the case.
> it is the combination of the fear, the innocence and the meaning well, the being cornered and scared and desperate with still a glimpse of hope to be treated nicely, am about to cry again..
> it was good that after the cry I could lay with my two cats who laid close to each othr on the back of the bed, and could caress them both, the one with the sore paw relaxing more easily as he saw how his brother really immediately is thrilled with being caressed, and then the more reserved one also sstarting to purr, it felt good and like balm on my soul.
> then I remembered how I was always good at reassuring and calming down scared animals, horses or cats or dogs, taking all the time needed and with seeemingly a good skill to do so.
> probably because it really mattered to me to ease their fear, make them trust my good intentions and the general fact there are beings with good intentions around in general..
> it must be some conbination of my own feelings of fear and lostness with no way to turn to, also the horrror of any being faced with real fear, of dying or otherwise, while being alone or feeling alone..
> the pain, all that pain of frightening and violent deaths, but mostly the fear in eyes looking for compassion and reassurance..
> not clear what it represents for me, but definitely a deep feeling, am crying while writing..
> have stopped reading the book to cry, must continue.
> these feelings of course also connect to my mom’s actual situation and her vulnerability in her current state.
> sounds silly, but wish I had a magic wand to ban all fear and pain out of the world.
> what does that mean in my own primal context?
> to be continued I guess..
Margaret: Sadly, fear does have it’s purpose. To quote Barry:- when you see the Lion you run for fear of your life (unlike the little girl that want to die anyway). It would be nice if it could be minimized … even sadness, and yep anger also … but they do have their purpose.
Just being able to appropriately express them is for me, the greatest.
Glad you were able to have that cry, Margaret.
> I think I have less of a problem with the natural kinds of fear, of the prey being caught by the predator, usually a fast kill and the prey quickly going into a state of shock.
> it is the kind of unnecessary and terefor cruel kind of fear, like of a caged animal or imprisoned victim being helpless and scared and defenseless, dependant of the goodwill of the ‘stronger’ ones in charge…
> also the utter loneliness of being in that position, the not understanding and feeling of being alone in a hostile threatening world without understanding why and what the cause is, desperately hoping someone will notice there is fear but no bad intentions, on the contrary, huge need for comfort and consolation… and reassurance..
> definitely an old feeling I recognize in the mental state of the lion in the story and in the eyes of any caged and fearful animal..
> might have to do with the weeks I had to stay in a strange institution at the age of about two, while mom had to have a serious operation and dad had to work…
> or maybe there is more, linked with fear of dying and being on my own and feeling unable to cope with the problem or threat…
> it does not matter, fact is the feeling is there, and there is no easy way to process and express fear.
> it is a painful process of doing stuff in spite of being scared and having it come up bit by painful bit, like how do you express silent terror and fear, sittting in a corner as a small child, surrounded by strangers who don’t look kind or helpful, and not knowing what or why ? the safe world falling apart, which also goes for almost not making it at birth really.
> it is not as simple as expressing it, Jack, getting acccess to it is the hard part.
> getting access to it in a deeper way than having to function with the ever present anxiety of it in daily life..
> and what I meant is if I would have been the creator so many believe in, I would have never allowed the degree of fear and pain that exists in this world.
> the function of fear and ‘ouch’ can still be there with a bit less intensity and cruelty.
> but well, no creator and certainly me not being one.
> i am afraid man is the species inflicting most of the world’s suffering of today, in many many ways, to its own species, with the bio-industry and with the general lack of respect for the planet and its variety of life forms.
> makes me sad, but I will never give up hope as who gives up hope gives up the fight to make things better..
Margaret: quote:- “Jack, getting acccess to it is the hard part.” I’ll grant that, BUT it is not impossible … to express …in-spite of the earlier repression.
I also grant that we are the most ‘fucked-up’ of all the other creatures … wars and killing one another, as well as all the other cruelties.
Wishing for a ‘magic wand’ and/or “being the creator” is also a bit forlorn. However, just to repeat myself … AGAIN … lest there might be just one or two that see my point …. It’s MONEY and all the trapping that followed from that, that has (in my view) created the most agregious of it all.
For what it’s worth, I feel, (sure! I could be mis-informed, as you have stated), that the abolition of money would eliminate 95% of all our problems and EVEN (IMO) eliminate the very nature of ‘NEUROSIS’. But then that just ‘the mis-informed’ me.
A dragon fly flew into the house of friends. They tried ever so carefully and gently to catch it to release it. Over and over it flew against the windows and behind the drapes. Finally they caught it and put it out on the backyard table, giving it its freedom. Watching it from inside the house, it seemed to be resting briefly when a bird swooped down and took it.
I think of all species ours has the greatest capacity for empathy and caring.
Larry: I sure wish you were right, but all the wars and insane killings of other humans and rape and all the other non empathetic actions … I’d put m bet on elephants, horses, cats and dogs.
Sucks about that lion, even tho it is just a story., sad. although then he would be released from his cage. men and their tools and guns and spears and knives and cages and rules and general rudeness make me vomit.
glad to hear about your cry, margaret. deep. i wave my hands magically from time to time, to stop the shit in the world. nope. hasn’t worked yet. maybe next time i i try it, it will work.
i should go buy some crickets and release them again. I feel so bad that they sell them to feed reptiles. my kid had a bearded dragon when he was young, in a small glass cage in the dark in the mountains. I was too much of a wuss to stop him from getting that animal and keeping it caged like that. it was all about keeping him busy, move him away from drugs. He had a job at an aquarium store before we went to the mountains. none of our efforts kept him from getting drugs because his pain was entrenched. well i was not going to say much more tonight, and now i have wandered into more of my old shitload of misery.goodnight.
Yes Daniel that is correct but whatever you do just don’t forget the password ( it rhymes with folks!). 🙂 (((Gretch )))
Gretchen: I laughed so loud I woke my Jimbo up. However, I thought I was the only one that was allowed to do the “pokes”. SO!!! … be careful, you are breaking that radio silence and those boogey men will after you.
Talking about boogey men, when I was a kid I just knew they were under my bed. I take it now they moved.
> I am not sure why you adress me about this, maybe you do want me honest feedback, in that case I will give it to you.
> my opinion is that either you are trying to play games with us manipulating us into some struggle, but the other option is you seem to be sliding further into some kind of paranoid psychosis.
> it is funny you use the words hatred and absurd in your last sentence, it might be some kind of projection of your inner feelings, not analizing, just searching to understand how your view of reality is organizing itself.
> i still suspect or hope part of you is sane enough to know these theories are pretty unrealistic, if only for the sheer practical impossibility to keep such an international fake bloody theatre from being exposed as a fraud..
> i think you should be careful if you are just playing around with those ideas that your ‘front’, ‘game’, outwards face does not become your reality.
> reread what you wrote, and try to see the strangeness of your views, is all I can say.
> it also seems somewhat autodestructive to come up with such outrageously crazy views, like you want to alienate yourself from the whole world, except maybe a small marginal group you used to mock yourself not so many years ago.
> if this is a way to get attention, you are playing a dangerous game in my opinion, you might lose touch more and more with who you really are and specially with the sane majority of people.
> meant to be helpful, M
Thanks Margaret that feels genuine I don’t have a problem it’s clearly what you think and feel about it/me. To say a little more about it and I still have not delved so much into it (busy) but so far to me this is about the worst one of these ‘fakes’ in the sense it is so transparent.
I have driven some trucks like this one and they are not that manouverable the point being how can a truck supposedly over a distance of more than one kilometer just mow down people like that. Whatever happened of getting out of the way?!. Don’t you think as the first people go down there is total terror and people run like hell. And they had places to run to like um…………out of the way!. I hesitate to go on now about it I am trying to apply ‘logic’ to a nonsense bullshit story. To keep it simple where is the blood on the front of the truck? It has just mowed down 84 people and one would assume badly injured maybe hundreds more and at the end of all that you have a nice clean white front not a trace of blood. I would conclude NOBODY ‘died’ in this one as Kollerstrom says the trend now is ‘no deaths’ that way no pesky ‘relatives’ to sue and bother the authorites ever after. This way this thing can and will be ‘gone’ from the news in a week but the impression remains of course
The impression we are all in danger, we need more ‘security’ which means more surveillance and snooping, more ‘terror laws’ more police with more guns on the street and all because ANY random person at any time can ‘go off’ It can happen in night clubs, airports, train stations and now big trucks. That one they had missed up to now. Of course one again he is a ‘crazy Muslim’ and a ‘loner’ too any ‘loner’ is dangerous he might be thinking for himself people like that need more surveillance. The Muslim meme is a given, ISIS did it blah blah blah. Remember again ISIS stands for “Israeli Security Infiltration Services” (see previous)
I am sure that Gretchen and Daniel see ‘anti semitism’ here from me of course. Well it annoys me very much to see a whole huge swath of people being demonized like this and done by a bunch of liars. They did it before with the Germans and very successfully too even the Germans mostly have just taken it and swallowed it all but it all just a big lie. Human gas chambers never existed, neither is loner crazy Muslims every other week now going off…………..it’s all lies. Hard to believe I know but all you have to do is do a bit of homework, think for yourself and try to stop lying to yourself
I better stop this is such nonsense it is a waste of time even trying to counter it. Here is a nice take though on the fact there was no blood on the truck, you will say ‘fake blood’ on the street but what about the truck
“Margaret: quote:- “Jack, getting acccess to it is the hard part.” I’ll grant that, BUT it is not impossible … to express …in-spite of the earlier repression.” If you talking about access to the old feeling/pain, I like a comment that i heard on youtube by dr. janov given in an interview at some event where he was “hawking” one of his latest books. And it is late and i am tired and i dont have the correct words, but it was something about “just knowing how to talk to that brain” i think it was in reference to the emotional brain or the limbic one or something like that. this is why i dont tell many jokes, they fall pretty flat. I guess, in essence, pt might be knowing how to talk to that brain to get the pain to come out of hiding. if i heard it right. thank j that music talks to my brain pain. thanks bb for the encouragement in that arena.
That’s a good description of what happens. On Friday evening I was watching “the Finest Hours”, the movie about the true story of a small coast guard crew who in the midst of one of the most violent storms on the US northeast sea board risked their lives to rescue 32 men off an oil tanker that broke in two. My rational brain suspended itself and let my feeling brain get more and more caught up in the character development, the sense of community, the friendships, the camaraderie, the love relationships, the losses of loved ones, the sense of duty, the sense of leadership, and the willingness to risk great discomfort and one’s life to save others. My rational brain was aware of what was unfolding in me as I watched the movie, saw the signs in me that meant a feeling was about to be unleashed…the tearing up, the upwelling need to sob….connected to related memories coming to the fore, and my rational brain let and watched myself fall into my deepest feeling yet about death and helplessness and losing my wife to cancer, as I played the last segment of the movie over and over a few times.
It’s a sad day as my vacation is over and we will be leaving for the airport. My father in-law says I should stay and he will teach me to work his land. This comment was made jokingly but the idea has attraction for me. That would be something different for me to do. I am treated very well here and am always sad to leave. I bonded real well with my niece and nephew and won’t see them for another year. I should return in December in time to pick the olives
Did you speak in Spanish to your father-in-law, Phil?
One more on this, this video shows the picture that reminded me of the Crusifiction and the kind of weird ‘porno’ aspect (maybe just in my ‘dirty’ mind). I mean how are we supposed to think this is ‘real’ no injuries just a dash of ‘blood’ on the ground next to him and many more the same if you care to look. To me there is a Zionist/Jewish ‘feel’ to this…………..mock Christianity, stuff these lies down their stupid throats, even ‘mock’ them by doing it so badly but most of the sheeple or what some people now call ‘sleeple’ fall for it. Or is it the ‘sleeple sheeple’ the ‘sleeping sheep’ that’s a pretty low level to have reached in terms of awareness of what is going on in front of our eyes (if only we would open them and LOOK!)
Honestly, it seems you are pulling the wool over your eyes, Patrick.
Patrick: all this hoax stuff seems to me that you have finally found someone, or group to blame for your own misery and bitterness.
The real sadness is that even after finding someone/group to blame you are no more happy, or less bitter.
It all started when you blamed me for your anger/hurt or whatever. Since that did not get what you needed, then you sought out to find an alternative. I’ve suggested to you many times … just OWN your feelings … they belong to you. The blame game EFFECTS nothing for you, me or anyone else.
Ask yourself:- are you any the more, even just content????? It doesn’t seem like it … but who knows??????
> hope you have an ok trip home.
> yes, I can relate to being taken in by the Spanish way of life.
> maybe a good option for after your retirement, pass at least some months of the year over there or even more?
> how do you explain a hoax on that scale in fromt of a crowd of ten thousands of people all being there for the fireworks?
> all part of the conspiracy probably, or all sleepwalkers.
> for your own reasons you seem to need to cling to this conspiracy option.
> curious if you would still do so if there would be a terrorist attack in Ireland and you could ‘investigate’ more closely..
> but well, everyone his opinion…
I agree with Margaret that you Patrick need professional help. Nobody on this blog can take your points seriously because frankly they are not. The words and sentences and paragraphs you construct do not carry the signs of truth, or ‘homework’ or ‘thinking for yourself’, but do contain the hallmarks of paranoia.
Adult minds can usually integrate, combining the elements of reality into a whole. Paranoids on the other hand cannot. They pick up one or two elements (no blood on the truck; no mention of genocide in Nazi Enigma dispatches; he looks at me funny) and construct their whole from this tiny element (Nice was a hoax; Holocaust never happened; he’s out to get me).
For this to work they need to disregard all other elements of reality that might interfere with their newly constructed picture of things (numerous eyewitness testimonies and hospital and police reports; testimonies and documents of genocide of all kinds; yesterday he was nice to me and his words were not threatening).
And since the paranoid whole is made up from only one or two elements thus evacuating reality of the rest of its features, the bulk of it is replenished with elements from the inside, mostly aggressive and fearful in nature. That process of evacuation and then projection makes the paranoiac’s whole seem to a bystander to be distorted beyond recognition.
Since he can’t sell it and people won’t buy it the paranoiac’s experience is tragically one of solitude and torment.
This is really sad.
Daniel – you make some interesting points there. And I appreciate your calmness and the fact you don’t ‘freak out’ at some mention of ‘holocaust doubt’ or whatever…………still the overall feeling I have you is you sort of are trying to make some kind of ‘global’ statement about my personality or a paranoic personality that is ‘valid’ all across the board. This I don’t think is possible and your ‘diagnosis’ of some tragic consequence of “solitude and torment” for me at least I don’t fits at all.
It’s very much just a matter or a point of view I would say like I have been in the UK meeting up with Dr Kollerstrom and later now with some ‘chemtrails’ activists kind of people and I don’t feel ‘alone’ at all. Or I don’t find it so ‘sad’ at all………….if anything I feel the opposite meaning there are quite a bunch of people who feel like me and the number seems to be growing. Maybe a small minority still but to me a more lively and vibrant ‘minority’ than the kind of standard thinking majority. The majority would be most all of the kind of ‘standard’ outlets here say the BBC or the Guardian not to mention the ‘gutter press’ so called on in the US say the NY Times and to me now a lot of the time it is so ‘uniform’ and well just so wrong
To me we have based the whole post WW2 world on ‘war atrocity propoganda’ including the holocaust and it has led us to the world we have today – permanent war, official lying and propoganda and it is well past time for a change. I am not ‘attacking’ Jews more asking them to be open to all this and not just bunker or hunker down in this kind of group think, Daniel you could even be a ‘self hating Jew’…………what a weird phrase that is anyone who thinks outside the group is ‘self hating’ well not necessarily. I had thought for example Gretchen would be more ‘open’ to all this and who knows maybe things move slowly but I was not encouraged by her initial response that Kollerstrom was an ‘imbecile’ and a ‘moron’ I have met the man now and I see no reason to go anywhere near her view.
Daniel – to just take the 2 examples you yourself gave of ‘no blood on the truck in Nice, or no mention of any killing program let alone a ‘gassing’ program in the Enigma dispatches’ I wonder how YOU would explain that leaving out any putative ‘paranoiac’ for the moment. Don’t you think they need explanation? and that’s just for starters
If you want to go further and have to lot a lot more ‘explaining’ consider some of this
Quote:- “If you want to go further and have to lot a lot more ‘explaining’ consider some of this”.
Patrick: YOU are the one that needs to a lot, lot, lot more explaining. Start with your ranting and raving throughout the time you have been on this blog. Then continue with explaining why you asked the question “what’s the point” with your first three week therapist. Then what it is that got you a thinking that there are so many hoax out there ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE AS TO WHY NO-ONE HAS BLOWN THE WHISTLE.
And it goes on and on and on and yet YOU NEVER EXPLAIN any of this. Merely grumpily carry on with OUTRAGEOUS (conspiracies) theories. Yet seemingly are unable to explain ANYTHING even Primal theory that you have been at least involved with, for over 35 years … to the extent that you are totally unable to even consider leaving this PRIMAL THERAPY blog.
So many have tried to help you YET somehow it eludes you. But other loose theories (conspiracies) seem to take on a significant proportion of your life.
I am tentatively excited. My nephew and I have decided to take a trip on our own, leaving my Jimbo and his wife behind. Hopefully a week this coming Tuesday.
I’m exited because first I’ll be with my best Primal buddy, second I will be seeing and staying with his sister, my niece in Cornwall, afterwards we will travel north and potentially pick up my sisters and then go and scatter my brother ashes where he said he’d like them scattered on the Penine moors. That could be the last time I see either or both of them
Afterwards we’ll take a trip to view a property that he is interested about, in the North of England. Then it’s all just what we both chose to do before returning back to the US.
There are some potential risks:- Who knows: maybe Israel, Iran, China, the Irish, OR, the weather, will down our aeroplane in flight over the Atlantic, and I doubt I’d be able to swim back to land.
There’s also the possibility that I will get struck with lightening or some such other natural catastrophic incident, BUT … non of this is dimming my current excitement. I remember such feeling when I was a kid, going to Christmas parties or to some other friends birthday party. It’s a great feeling and doesn’t come up too often these days: So! I am relishing it for as long as I can.
I will be taking my lap-top with me, so (hopefully) I will be able to keep a check on all you guys while I am over there. 😦 😦 . The other good thing is they speak English there (or least-ways did last time I went) cos I am a bit on the ‘dopey side’, when it come to other languages.
That sounds exciting Jack.
A way to try to learn English is by watching Masterpiece Theatre on Prairie Public Television. I’ve been doing that for a while and am starting to understand what they are saying.
Larry: :O 🙂 :0 🙂 :0 🙂 Yep, I tried that one, but I think I’m way too dopey and I hated it. All those houses with those chandeliers and all those long dining table and the dresses that they all dress up in, even the hair do’s drove me crazy. Jim loves them. We sit on the floor and hold hands and he puts the head phones on and I try hard not to look at the screen.
He claims he of nobility and should be living like that, BUT I dragged him into the gutter. I said well!!! once you’re in the gutter there’s no further to fall, no-one to impress and everyone leaves you alone.
Meantime I’m still excited … but nothing set in stone as yet.
Sounds great for you to enjoy that special trip Jack!
Leslie: Thanks; and I’m still excited about it all, even though there are now threats that some countries are suspending flights. So far not the Uk … yet!!!!
We now have tickets to fly off this next Friday arriving Saturday. The only ‘side’ effect is that flying east, jet lag is apparently more disturbing, but if that arises we can sleep a few hours after landing in some motel, then get off to Cornwall to see my Niece and her family
It’ll be sad scattering my bothers ashes … but that I feel will bring closure. Now there’ll just be three of us, out of the original four.
But if I can make my lap-top work, I should be still connecting with you guys. Give my best wishes to Barry, your hubby. .
So glad you are making the trip Jack… amazing!! the U.K. is very warm currently..
Jo: Hey that’s good to know I was wondering if I might have to buy an overcoat and I’ve already packed three sweaters. I’m getting even more excited. I love that feeling and hope it lasts and sure hope this time the UK lives up to a better reputations than last time. However it’s more to do with seeing family and my brother’s ashes scattering than anything else.
Will keep you all informed if I can make my laptop work on the English electrical system.2 billion volt and up. 🙂 .
Patrick, seen any good movies lately?
Otto – no actually I havn’t. For some reason my movie going such as it is and it gets less all the time I only do in the Winter for some reason. “Better” movies in the Winter I don’t really check but in the Summer it seems to all these kind of teenager block busters repeaters kind of things that never interested me. Even at the time I did not see “ET” for example or a lot of the Star Wars movies and have still not seen them. I was always a bit too ‘serious’ for that kind of stuff and I suppose in many ways still am (the same person)
Also too ‘serious’ means and meant the inability to just have fun or whatever. You might be implying of course that I need to ‘get out more’ and see a few movies and then I might lighten up on the ‘conspiracies’ and that’s an interesting point. Maybe the kind of ‘kicks’ I get from what I at least feel like is ‘uncovering’ these fake terror plots others get from watching movies or some of those kind of “Breaking Bad” TV kinds of things. And someone somewhere has commented on this too like the ‘thrills’ people get from horror movies etc they can deal with but sort of don’t want to look at all about how this kind of ‘horror’ or ‘deception’ can be being played on them ‘for real’ in for example these events in Nice or Orlando or the earlier ones in France and Belgium.
I think you have something there (if you are even saying that)………I remember once as children my brother who was a bit over 1 year older than me saying anything on the radio (we did not have TV yet) that was not either news or sports he thought was a ‘waste of time’. I also remember at the time thinking I did not fully agree with him I thought music should be added to that. But that was about as far as I was prepared to go lol! So it’s interesting so many of the ‘habits’ or whatever word you want to use that are laid down as children just LASTS and lasts!!. But to me there is almost no point in trying to change that (though I have and a lot) because in the end I can only be myself. And I realize more and more the only way of being really ‘attractive’ is by being one self. But if oneself is just a boring news and sports junkie that still kind of a problem………….anyway I still like the news and the sports and the music but I don’t still go for all these TV dramas or ‘summer movies’ or whatever.
Probably more than you want to know but I suppose the short answer is I find ‘real life’ gripping enough I don’t feel to need to embellish it any more by seeing ‘horror movies’ or whatever……..
> isn’t it amazing how once we are opening up to a feeling, if we allow it, such a variety of triggers can help us to let it come up.
> it sounds like that movie really did the trick.
> it must have been painful and a relief at the same time.
> i think death is in the back of my mind a lot these days, and the pain of having to say goodbye bit by bit and remain more alone still..
Well Margaret, I knew I was on the verge of a feeling because I felt so weighed down and listless, so exhausted and disinterested in doing anything but passively losing myself for a while in a movie. Or when I’m in that very lethargic state, which I frequently am, it doesn’t have to be a movie, it can be a series of youtube videos or songs or even a book that I just lose myself in to escape my life for a while and just let my muse follow from one to another and bingo some movie or video or song or book surprises me by touching and opening wide a feeling that’s been lingering just below the surface and draining the life out of me. And yes, before the day of the feeling, for a while heavy thoughts brew in the background of my mind, usually about need, loss and aloneness. The good thing is, after the feeling more and more life feels magical and majestic and I want to make the most of it and I know that with this therapy I have a chance to find a way forward. But pain, death and loss are real and nothing can protect us from it, and I think pain and loss can sometimes feel too overwhelming to want to carry on.
Alone, driving a Ford F350 diesel truck the 3.5 hours west back home on Tuesday evening from a long hot day of field work, towing a trailer carrying a tractor and rotavator along a one lane highway across the serene moonlit prairie, with lightning and dramatic thunderclouds and tornado warnings 100 kilometers or 60 miles to the south, in the expansive dynamic landscape under the timeless celestial backdrop I found myself contemplating the long view of life, and it occurred to me and for some reason seemed like a revelation that almost all of the older generation of relatives who had such an impact on me while I was growing up and who at one time or other looked up at these same moon and stars, are gone. Those relatives of mine to whom in my young mind I bowed in deference to their age, ‘wisdom’ and power no longer exist. Their generation is deceased. The atoms that constituted those individuals once full of life are scattered hither and yon. As are my wife’s. Their time ran out and their entities are now nothing as if they never were; whereas I get to still be here for a little while longer hopefully. Somehow that insight felt freeing, as if the absorption of the reality of the inevitable winding down of their time was impetus for me to move on and continue living as best I can during what remains of my time. Mine will run out like theirs did, but that I am still here and for now and a short while into the future I get to experience the wonder of life in this time of it’s evolution on this planet in this phase of this Milky Way galaxy etc. etc. felt like a brief precious gift to make the most of.
> just called mom, and today she sounded much more cheerful than yesterday, and she had had a good time with some people in the cafeteria.
> it is striking how her being ok lifts up my mood, seems to take a load of worry off my shoulders.
> I guess some form of symbiosis is inevitable with a person you care about and who is in a difficult situation.
> talking about it being much better she could spend time with friends than being on her own, she said I probably knew that as well.
> I acknowledged I felt too much alone lately and looked forward to travelling to L.A> soon and being with more friends for a while.
> she really encouraged me to do so, it was simply a very nice conversation.
> it is nice that even with occcasional steps backwards she still seems to be adjusting overall.
> we agreed with the director to keep her personal insurance next to the insurance they get from the home, so in case she would wander out and have or cause an accident they would not be addressed for the responsibility.
> so far she did not put one foot on the street on her own though, they always managed to catch her the few times she did try to leave.
> now she seems to find ways to have a good time there, with the activities, or in the cafetaria or in the large garden, or even in her room, she enjoys getting meals put in front of her several times a day, she gets a lot of phone calls and regular visits.
> her medication seems to be administrated in the right way now, so fingers crossed it works out well.
> we are all concerned, my brother and halfsister keep each other posted, when we call, about how she is, without words there is an understanding it helps us all specially to get good news and to remain in touch.
> will go visit tuesday with sister, which is usually nice, she is patient and has a good sense of humor.
> should be one nice summer day then, so we can go out into the garden and take mom’s ‘friend’ Niske with us, take some drinks and enjoy the nice weather and the huge beautiful trees there and the company. hopefully.
I am watching the Bourne Supremacy for the millionth time, because that is all there is on cable. The real conspiracy is that cable and regular tv only give you a few movies that they play over and over. Then the 2 big cable companies merge, and who knows what will happen. The real conspiracy is that i have so much fat in my veins that i can barely use a mouse anymore. So the cable company designs a website (probably Chinese programmers) that shows the cable shows on your computer, but the design is so bad, you have to use the mouse to change channels and it is almost impossible for me to do so. So i am thinking that this conspiracy has been put together by GenX, GenZ, millenials and whoever the fuck are all those young people, to get rid of us old codgers by driving us nuts. And of course, soon the Obama death panels are going to kick in. I caught a glimpse of an extremely violent movie on Showtime the other day, almost to the same standards as a snuff film. It is a fucking conspiracy that they are allowed to play this filth to our young kids. It is a conspiracy (but probably an unconcious one) that designers design whore clothes for girls ages 7-18, and it is a conspiracy that their brain-dead parents let them wear those whore pants. Don’t get me wrong, whores are just another down-trodden part of society, and I have nothing against them, and frankly, I feel bad about using the word whore, which has such a negative meaning. Rant rant rant, that is what some of us disgruntled, angry old men do. Just some of us.
First of all, one needs to be an expert to analyze vehicle-pedestrian collisions. I for sure am not one. And neither are you nor that guy you linked to who calls himself “an investigative journalist” but doesn’t display any investigative standards, nor any responsibility or accountability.
Not being an expert should instill some modesty when approaching the subject, but that doesn’t stop you or him or Mr. K to pretentiously declare what that collision scene is or should be.
This guy on the other hand is a real professional and if you’ll consult his article you might find a possible reason for why when a flat-front truck (no lower bumper or hood) hits a person it leaves little or no blood on the truck itself. And besides, who told you there are no blood signs on the truck? All images available online are from a distance and show mostly that the front body piece of the truck is missing.
The flimsy “evidence” you and the people you refer to bring to attention looks like, feels like and is something you fit into preexisting ideas of hoaxes/fakery/Jews/Israel. I mean you approach the matter equipped not with the professional tools of the trade and an inquisitive mind but rather with an ideological agenda, so this “evidence” of yours only serves as an extra in that elaborate preexisting ideological argument.
Regarding the Enigma dispatches not referring to gassing or mass murders – I have no idea if they refer to it or not. And, if not I have no idea why. There could be many explanations for this. But, this is just one detail out of many. You may know that news of what’s happening in the east became known to the British as early as 1941, before the death camps were gassing and burning people. As a matter of fact, the scant news available to the British (perhaps from Enigma dispatches) were so distressing to Churchill that he put them in a speech in August 1941, announcing to the world that Jews in “whole districts are being exterminated,” adding, “We are in the presence of a crime without a name.”
And then there were couriers, and people escaping from Poland who reported on what was going on. But still, the full extent of it became clearer only after the war has ended. There were the soldiers who arrived at the camps, some of whom were severely traumatized by what they met there, and then the survivors gave testimonies, and later on the perpetrators, and then a whole lot of documents were discovered and studied. And later still, after the iron curtain was lifted much more information became available from the archives in the eastern bloc. And research continues to this day, by the way some of the most interesting of which is from German researchers.
We’ve been here before Patrick and I hope you understand why I as a Jew cannot accept such a denial of history. I personally know people who were in those camps; one that comes to mind right now is Mo Alter whose daughter was a friend of mine all through my childhood. Mo was deported with his entire family to Auschwitz from the Lodz Ghetto. Upon arrival he and his brother-in-law were selected for work and sent to the right. The others in his family were sent left by the camp doctors. They were never seen again because couple of hours later they were all dead. They were his father, his mother, his brother, his two sisters, his grandmother, his wife and three children. All vanished into thin air. They were never listed as arrivals at the camp because those selected to die – which were most arrivals – didn’t need to be registered. They were considered dead already.
Just take all the deportation lists to Auschwitz (for example) and subtract from them all those who were admitted to the work camp and registered. What happened to the rest? Why weren’t they registered? Not one of them survived. And it wasn’t typhoid that killed them because that was in the work camp (populated with those registered) and it takes time to die from typhoid. No, within a few hours of arrival they were all gone, deliberately exterminated.
In a way you’re right – this is so hard to comprehend, so unbearable to accept. Nevertheless, the evidence is overwhelming. So I’ll just leave you with testimony by Franz Suchomehl, a German stationed in Treblinka, the place where a woman’s hair was worth more than the woman. Suchomehl was interviewed and secretly videotaped. His descriptions and experiences are first hand.
Daniel – I watched some of this, I find it ‘hard’ hard in that what I understand about Treblinka would throw more than serious doubt on this ‘interview’ Isn’t the guy doing it Claude Lantzman I mean this guy is a movie maker and a ‘story teller’. The whole way even this interview itself is done has a very ‘deceptive’ feel about it he is re-assuring the guy his name will not be used but then he is using his name. And the swinging antenna on the roof of the van…………cheesy in the extreme! Who knows who this ‘German’ is could be an ‘actor’ himself could be just about anyone or anything this for sure is not ‘history’ it is at best ‘drama’ and ‘story telling’ It annoys me actually more and more stories with little or no regard as to truth. One small example struck me a mother with her daughter on this train slashed her daughters wrists and then her own…………this seems very unlikely to me like is this supposed to have happened? to me this is a whole industry of ‘story telling’ like I said I find very annoying there is tons of that kind of stuff out there and really is mostly ’emotional manipulation’ in my opinion
It is interesting though (to me at least) all these recent ‘terror events’ have a very similar feel to them. Like in Brussels the one that scared Margaret for a few days bfore it vanished down the memory hole has anyone heard anything more about it? (and I did say to her at the time just prepare for the next one well we have had Orlando and Nice to name just 2 big ones and I am pretty sure there will be more it about time Germany was hit with one of those and maybe even poor little Ireland has one coming up if they step out of line which as ‘good boys’ they rarely do) and supposedly there were heads and arms being blown off in the Airport, heads rolling on the floor arms flying off in the air……………were they really? The 2 bombers blew themselves to bits so much they just ‘disappeard’ poof!……..gone! The 4 London 7/7 ‘bombers’ the same thing gone up in smoke you might say. All of this has some kind of appearance of truth if you don’t think about it very much but it hardly passes any serious muster imo. This I find more than annoying like perpetrating that kind of deception on the pubic is not cool and it has many nasty consequences. And I hate to say this but Jewish people seem to be central to establishing these deceptions as truth. The ‘war on terror’ and all these kinds of things are massive deceptions and from the beginning (9/11) Israelis, Zionists, Jews whatever word you want to use are central to this whole agenda. To me they are ‘blackening’ the name of all Muslims just as they have previously and very succesfully done the same with all “Germans” I don’t like it at all
The only one doing any “blackening” is you. The only one demonizing a “whole huge swath of people” (Jews) is you. Meantime, in the real world most world leaders try not to blame all Muslims, try to draw a sharp distinction between radical Islam and the rest of Islam, and security forces base their conclusions on facts rather than a political agenda. That is why it’s sometimes radical Muslims, sometimes a Timothy McVeigh, sometimes racial bigots, sometimes those avenging police shootings. And by the way, acquitting radical Islam of all blame is ludicrous (they are the first to say so themselves).
And shame on you for not believing the Lanzman documentary interview with Franz Suchomehl. Suchomehl is no actor. He was tried in the so-called Treblinka trials in Germany in the 1960’s and was sentenced to 7 years in prison of which he served 4. But these are facts, why bother with these. Have you ever looked into any of the evidence in that trial? Or do you suppose you know better than those German judges who examined the evidence and ruled according to it. We have that trial, we have Suchomehl’s testimony, we have survivors’ testimonies, we have testimonies from people in nearby villages, and surprise-surprise they mostly fit and corroborate each other.
And by the way, Suchomehl’s testimony is so much more reliable than Mr. K’s in that video you again posted against Gretchen’s explicit requests. As any professional investigator or judge will tell you Mr. K’s body language, with the constant nervous eyes twitching and right shoulder jerking, betrays extremely unreliable speech (assuming he is not ill).
For you everybody lies, except of course the liars themselves.
For me the matter is closed and I do not wish to discuss it further with you.
Trials about this matter in Germany mean nothing, if the accused was to ‘deny the holocaust’ in court that ITSELF is a serious crime! and WILL lead to much more trouble even the accused’s lawyer will get into big trouble. Is that the kind of ‘justice’ you depend on. The original Nurenburg trials were based on TORTURE, the commander of Auschwitz had his testicles crushed I wonder why? Why on earth would that be necessary? Rhetorical question the reason is obvious it was to perpetrate a bit LIE
As far as what this guy done and said after who knows why. Maybe Lantzman gave him a lot of money………..I would not be surprised Lantzman is a fantasist and a ‘story teller’ and usually a Jewish ‘story teller’ means a liar sad to say
Your diagnosis of Dr K is pretty sloppy like your ‘diagnoses’ of me as a ‘paranoiac’ sloppy sloppy and weak………….I wonder and worry a bit about Dr K’s health. He does seem to be under stress but for someone like him to be as brave and as ‘out there’ as he is he will for sure be put under massive stress by the ever vigilant (against the truth) Zionists. For sure they make him pay one way or another. Nothing to do with telling lies Dr Daniel……….Dr K is NOT about lies though his adversaries are big time.
Almost ALL of these events have as a perpetrator a “Muslim nut case” that is very much the point and it is the case all the way from Orlando to Brussels, Paris and Nice. It is all being done by ISIS we are told which is very absurd until you realize what ISIS stands for. I have said before what it stands for no need to repeat.
You again display not only your hate but your ignorance as well. The Treblinka trial was held in 1964-1965. The German anti-incitement law forbidding, among other things, Holocaust denial was legislated 20 years later in 1985. It was perfectly legal at the time to raise any defense. As you may know (though I doubt it) the defense as always was that they were following orders.
I don’t think history will remember Mr. K, but if it will he will go down in it either as a deranged or as a despicable man (probably both), and you associating with him and reciting ‘your master’s voice’ in some twisted parody of self-proclaimed ‘free thinking’ puts you on the darkest side of the human street on the road to hell.
It now looks like ISIS stands for “International Society of Irish Schmucks”.
Daniel your quote:= “It now looks like ISIS stands for “International Society of Irish Schmucks”.
That sounds like it might be very fitting.
Daniel – you are a master of the ‘half truth’ you know very well all the way from Nurenberg the law was seriously skewed. So they skewed it further in 1985……..big deal. Basically formalizing and tightening what was already the case. Then they would no longer need to crush a guy’s testicles what they are doing now is all legal! No need for torture anymore. In any case a disgusting situation that continues to this day. And as I mentioned before they are lobbying to make it EU wide so then what I am writing here would get me arrested. It seems you would agree with that
Meanwhile ‘the greatest lie ever told’ the holocaust is being promoted and used to brain wash young children. Treblinka – where over a million were ‘gassed’ and ‘buried’ there but when people found out the land was totally undisturbed, the ‘story’ changed to oh well they dug them all up and ‘burned’ them and threw away the ashes!! For all these ‘stories’ the ground is STILL undisturbed so the WHOLE THING is a total freaking LIE.
And basically that is why they ‘tighened’ the law as more and more contrary information started to come out………….oh well we have a ‘solution’ make it ILLEGAL to discuss and write about it. Total cover up! But like Gretchen with her 3 suicides including ‘attempts’ black is white and white is black and oh up is down. Doesn’t worry me I know a liar when I see one…………..
Quote:- “Doesn’t worry me I know a liar when I see one…………..”
I take it you look in the mirror every morning and this is where you get this superior knowledge from Yeah!!!!
Not a single thing you present here is even remotely connected with reality and it’s obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about and are not familiar with any of the subjects you so confusedly describe. What is your source for all these ideas? Whichever master’s voice you’re reciting, their ignorance is only compounded by your own to produce an intellectual and historical mayhem.
You’re probably not interested in the facts, but it’s not for you anyway.
The Nuremberg trials were military tribunals carried out right after the war by the occupying forces in Germany (Britain, US, USSR, France). The used some type newly created international law.
The Treblinka Trial, on the other hand, was in the 1960’s, initiated, investigated, prosecuted and judged in German civil courts by Germans using the German criminal law alone which has nothing to do with the laws used in Nuremberg. These German laws were from many years before WW2. The defendants were not accused of an abstract ‘Holocaust’ but mostly of murder, accessory to murder, and theft. The 1985 anti-incitement legislation is an addition to German Law and it too has nothing to do with Nuremberg and therefore cannot be its ‘tightening’ or ‘skewing’. You making a mishmash of the two legal systems shows you don’t understand and haven’t bothered to study even the rudimentary issues at hand.
I don’t wish to go into your ignorant Treblinka arguments. We’ve been there before. This is another subject you know absolutely nothing about yet constantly foaming at the mouth about it.
“Also too ‘serious’ means and meant the inability to just have fun or whatever. You might be implying of course that I need to ‘get out more’ and see a few movies and then I might lighten up on the ‘conspiracies’ and that’s an interesting point. ” Patrick, i dont mean to imply you need to get out more. Just feeble attempts at making conversation. I haven’t been out to the movies in years. Starwars is overrated, and everytime i see that ET is available on TV, I say fugitaboudit. Mr. Trump is going to steamroll Hillary, in my opinion. I am too serious and rarely have fun, except at work, when we get joking about the boss and his stupid ways.
Patrick, are you saying that music SHOULD BE or SHOULD NOT BE added to the list of the only thing good on the radio besides NEWS and SPORTS? Anyway, what time frame was your brother saying that? You only had BBC back then? I can’t stand the only BBC channel we get on Sirius, all full of horror and misery in the 3rd World. If I want misery, I just pull it out from my hoard under the bed, pull it over my head and go look in the mirror.
Otto, I was ‘lobbying’ that music should be added to the news and sports. And both of us are pretty much the same to this day on all that. Like most people now it seems watch those kind of long drawn out dramas on TV “Game of Thrones” “Breaking Bad” etc etc I can’t be bothered at all have no interest really. Like I said earlier I find the ‘news’ itself a kind of drama and now when you add the element of ‘deception’ and all these ‘false flag’ events it can get quite interesting in a very dark kind of way. People may think I go on about stuff like that too much and maybe I do but it is weirdly fascinating to me. Like I just got to Ireland a few days ago and I read the main Sunday newspaper and there is like about 8 articles about the Nice truck and while having different ‘takes’ on it they ALL accept the story as given. Totally accept it happened as they were ‘told’. I don’t at all and once your mind kind of makes that ‘switch’ well you just see things a lot differently. It can be lonely of course but it feels like the truth and there are others out there who have paved the way and these are the kind of people I ‘listen’ to along with my sports and music lol I was in England visiting my brother and he watches and listens to a lot of ‘news’ and is a kind of ‘news junkie’ and it seems to me that is a good description he ‘consumes’ whatever is put in front of him. Of course me I have always been a bit ‘different’…..
I think many of us are addicted to things to try to fill an emptiness within, and many of us are drawn towards sensationalism in the news as a way to divert us from our life problems, and being a business the news media are happy to feed us that sensationalism. There is great horrible tragedy and drama in events today as there has been for millennia, but I feel we shouldn’t let it divert us from working on healing the hollow within and improving our lives and the lives of others.
Larry: for the most part I totally agree with you. However, maybe we’ve got to work for the future of humanity and the other creatures of the world … That’s if there is indeed a future.
I think healing the present is the best way to ensure a future.
Larry: I again totally agree, but how many are there out there that know how??
It’s the reason that I suggested the abolition of money as the only hope that the greatest impediment to our total ‘instincts’ and ‘nature’ could be revived. However, just my idea for the fix.
‘what’s the feeling?’ to quote yourself is all this business about ‘abolishing money’. And keep to your FEELING (to quote yourself) and don’t you ever go ‘in your head’ about it (to quote yourself)
Larry, it looks like I can rent the Finest Hours on Amazon. Thanks for the info. Glad it brought up feelings, as painful as they must be. Maybe I will figure out why drowning means something to me. I watched a little bit of Black Sea, and as usual, when it looked like drowning time, I imagined that if I were in that situation, i would smash my head against anything I could to kill myself, rather than die from drowning.
Your welcome, Otto. I rented it from Itunes.
> phil, did you arrive home well?
> how is it being back so far?
> it was painful reading about your friend’s family.
> that kind of horror is so inconceivable.
> i can find no other words for it.
The trip back went well but seemed extra long for some reason.My son thought so too. We got home at 11:30 PM on Sunday and I had to work the next day It wasn’t that nice being back at work.
I am experiencing similar feelings as has happened other years in this situation. Basically alone, lonely, as my son is usually off with friends. Abandonment, and also freedom to do whatever I want when not at work. But that doesn’t really add up to anything good.
My wife still on vacation in Spain is sounding like she feels abandoned too. Maybe she’ll now have a little bit better understanding of what I go through.
On the flight back there was a father with two young children sitting near us. A boy about 4 or 5 years old and his sister, a few years older. The kids were in two seats together and the father across the aisle. I found some fascination with watching these people.
After I got home I realized the interactions maybe remind me of my own sister, although we were more than a few years apart in age. Sad feelings as I ended up abandoned by her too, and those feelings lead to one’s about my mother.
Last night I had a dream about being in Barry’s group. But it was weird therapy. We were being measured with odd devices and exposed to some kind of gas that gave a strange sensation.
One of the devices was fixing problems with my teeth by computer, I could see it happening on a screen, and when all done, I was going to easily get to all my pain and be done with it. This got interrupted unfortunately. My friend desperate for therapy, who I was talking about some months ago, was there too, but wasn’t allowed to be included in the group activities.
I gained like 7 pounds while on vacation. I really stuffed myself and that’s something else to work on now.
Phil, you should see Barry’s group on the alternate Saturdays. Even weirder! The gas you experienced was a by-product of that other group, i have no idea what they do in that group. ha. sorry could not resist. How old is your son that is usually off with other friends?
My son is 19, so it’s normal behavior. Someone else’s house is more fun and comfortable to hang out at than our’s. What he mainly likes to do is skateboarding,
which he’s very good at. Hopefully he’ll pick up a few more useful skills.
Even while we were on vacation he found a group of friends to be with and deals
with the language better than I do..
I hope the institute occaisionally gets aired out.
> what you say about Brussels makes no sense whatsoever.
> there is plenty of follow up news you could find if you wanted to, and it simply is not true either there were no remains at all from the bombers.
> not posting pictures of torn off limbs in the papers is just a rule of decency our media still have. no corpses unless sometimes they are covered, no body parts.
> if you want to see victims go to Brussels and visit the number of them still being treated for burns.
> your reasoning about the ‘proofs\ for your theories are so flawed I don’t even want to go into them.
> hard to believe you take yourself and the ones you feel are ‘with you’ seriously.
> all you continually base your reasoning on are feelings, intuitions and more feelings, which says it all.
> you say you always were different from your older brother, maybe it is part of the whole act out to stick to these poorly underbuilt theories which ignore all kinds of the proof of they being mistaken.
> i am still not sure whether all of this is you allowing yourself to act out as some kind of play for attention or to stick out in your family or whatever, or if you are so deeply sucked into it already you really ‘believe’ it all.
> you risk getting more and more out of touch with reality and ending up isolated in a small niche of paranoiacs and people full of hate.
> I remember how you used to laugh and joke about people like that, not taking them seriously, and being slightly concerned about them owning a large number of weapons.
> you referred to them as paranoid and possibly schizophrenic, and even occasionally teased them and in my opinion, and I told you if I remember it well, made it worse for one of them by increasing his paranoia, which was kind of a cruel joke.
> you considered warning the PI about the weapons, but now more and more you seem to be going towards that same category, paranoid and out of touch with reality.
> you never seek for proof of your opinions possibly being mistaken, ignore all of it and only come up with (weak) ‘proof’ of your own ideas.
> the nazis for example tried to keep their extermination plans relatively secret, only known to a limited number of people and towards the end of the war made a lot of efforts to conceal the factual evidences.
> so your lack of it being mentioned in the ‘enigma ‘ files is no proof whatsoever, there can be a million of reasons for that.
> at most it is an absence of proof on that very spot, nothing else.
> am tired of this, but also feel sad and concerned you seem to be going down a track that does not lead to anything good for you.
> this is all I can say about it all, don’t want to get into any struggle or arguments about this, have better things to do.
Margaret – too much ‘tittle tattle’ there for me to bother with, It reminds me of some of your previous nonsense about stuff I was supposed to have said. Your memory is quite good but you skew things a bit not worth going into details imo
Quote:- “Your memory is quite good, but you skew things a bit not worth going into details imo”
As IF your opinion, on any matter, that you relate on this blog, was of the least importance to anyone … BUT Patrick the Griffin.
Seems YOU are ‘so right’ AND ‘the rest of us ‘are so wrong’. Seems … there’s something a little bit out of “skew” here in the upper regions of you head.
> ha, just got an e-mail I passed the exam of evolutionary psychology, hurray!!
> don’t know the score yet, but that is of secondary importance, smiley.
Congratulations! Que buen estudiante!
Margaret, congratulations on passing your exam! Just out of curiosity, what is evolutionary psychology?
Margaret , Congrats ! G.
Otto, I sent you an email! G.
Daniel and Margaret, I think you are right to give up because there is not enough evidence or logic in the world to penetrate this particular way of thinking. In fact you may both recall from your studies something called confirmation bias. Some of that research was done on deniers and not only did evidence not impact their beliefs but to the contrary they became even more resolute . They see themselves as free thinkers, different from others but in fact they are strangely the same. There was no moon landing, AIDS is a lie, the Holocaust a conspiracy, terrorist attacks are staged by hundreds running around pouring ketchup over themselves ( interestingly none of these hundred or thousands of actors have coughed up the truth for five bucks and a magazine article, something I promise would happen as we all know). These are the flat earthers and sadly they are unreachable. Notice Daniel that when you point out first hand accounts rather than getting back any reasonable discussion you get a global hatred of all Jews. Blatant Anti Semitism Why? Because there is nothing else to be said . You can’t fight the truth so they attack with global hatred and words like faggot. They have no other ammunition. If it wasn’t Jews it would be Gays or Blacks or Hispanics. The only group not included would be the poor little Irish. This would be my worst fear personally. Muttering about how the most despised person in History is really a good ole guy and quoting the writings of known Nazis and laughing stocks, it’s sad and frankly pathetic and yes paranoid. Maybe most of all jealous. As an aside if you watch the posted videos of this sad little nazi dr k. you will find he doesn’t bother with evidence for his claims either. Somehow people are compelled to act out, to re- create the past. That can’t be penetrated with logic or reason. It can’t. Someone said, I can’t rememember who at the moment, ” genius is limited but ignorance is infinite” . Gretch
What a load of self serving rubbish! And there were only THREE according to you and that includes BOTH ‘attempted’ and ‘actual’ suicides among patients at the PI in the ’80’s. Yes indeed! I gave you 8 NAMES of people I knew personally. Oh well whose the liar here? The really funny and weird aspect of this is people here would probably say it’s me!!
Extend this outwards infinitly and you get the kind of siltuation in the world where the lies of authority and the well connected is established but not everyone is fooled. In fact it seems more and more are waking up. Is it too late………….probably.
How dare you talk about Dr K like that he has more ‘intelligence’ and truth in his little finger than you will ever achieve.
Quote:- “How dare you talk about Dr K like that he has more ‘intelligence’ and truth in his little finger than you will ever achieve.” From what I gather, that is about just where his intelligence is … in his little finger. As for truth … I never thought truth came out of little fingers … BUT what would I know??????
Wow!!!! You are sure losing it Patrick … I saw a grandmother get more and more demented and it seemed to take on a similar pattern, that I am getting here from you. Geezus !!!!!!
It seems sometimes you WANT me to ‘lose it’ you have made several references to Maggie Thatcher, Ronald Reagan etc in relation to me. I can assure you I feel fine though I understand as someone even wanders away a bit from ‘approved thinking’ one of the first weapons is they are ‘losing it’. No dude sorry to dissapoint you I feel I am going a bit saner actually. Mind yourself and make sure you are ALLOWED back in the country Homeland Security can be tricky and given your ‘record’ I dunno I would be careful. You will not have me around this time to pay your legal fees something you have never seemed to have ‘forgiven’ me for. Weird attitude and behaviour I guess you resent so much having needed my help. After all you are ‘the man’ you have it all figured out and you would like to ‘forget’ a lot in spite of all your ‘re living’………
Thanks Gretchen for that.
> Tooby and Cosmides of the University of Santa Barbara were the first to come up with this term, if I remember it well in the seventies.
> but the actual field existed long before, building on Darwin, who built on his grandpa’s theories, and then James, Milton, but then there was a period in which the idea of eugenetics derailed into massive sterilization and then even ‘annihilation’ of what was considered as inferior.
> in Scandinavia and Germany and Australia and some other parts of the world tens of thousands of people were sterilized without their agreement.
> all that came from the wrong interpretation of Darwin’s ideas that one race might be inferior to another, which he never claimed.
> the whole idea there was a biological connection influencing our behaviour and qualities, not only culture and upbringing, became taboo for a long while, being replaced by behaviourism and the general idea of man being a blank slate at birth and culture and teaching being the only factors.
> Tooby and Cosmides refer to this as the SSSM, the standard social science model.
> but in the meantime biologists went on studying animal behaviour, and genetics took a big leap forwards.
> Tooby and Cosmides synthesized a lot of what was going on, putting the label on it of Evolutionary Psychology.
> Nico Tinbergen named the four main questions of approach we should always consider when we study behaviour and want to try finding out whether it has become an adaptation in the early times of homo sapiens.
> we did not evolve from monkeys but have a common ancestor , too far to go into all of it here.
> so these fourquestions are
> 1. the mechanical or proximate function, like a mother feeding a hungry baby, doing so because it cries and she has a lot of milk
> 2 the ontogenetic or developmental approach, she did see other mothers feed babies and after a first clumsy try gets better and better at it
> 3 the fylogenetic or historical question, when did mammals evolve, and why and how
> 4 the funtional or ultimate function, what is the goal, passing on her genes by bringing up a healthy child
> this area of psychology examines human behavior as to look for adaptations and explanations.
> it uses interdisciplinary findings to create as much as possible solid proof like the medical science, psychology, physiology, genetics, ethnology, looking at remaining hunter gatherers groups, comparing behaviors of other species like primates , intercultural universals and differences etc.
> variation and survival of the fittest, as in best adapted to actual and changing circumstances, combined with sexual selection, forms an intriguing field.
> see Fisher, Zahavi, Williams, and others.
> the parental investment, mostly relying on the female efforts in our species with the pregnancy and feeding, makes the female more choosy as to find a fit partner who will also assist her and supply food and support.
> in species where the male looks after the young it is the other way around, there males are choosy, like the little ‘seahorse’, don’t know its name in English.
> just another funny and interesting example is the level of promiscuity of the females.
> males have an undeniable tendency to go for more ‘loose’ encounters when presented, just spreading more of their genes, but females are not necessarily that faithful.
> it has been discovered over a lot of comparative studies, there is a strong link between on one hand the level of control a male has on the females, like say a gorilla having a harem of females he guards well and is the only one to breed with. in that case the difference of morphology between male and female is mostly big, males are large, females less so.
> then there is a species like for example chimpanzees, where the morphological difference is not so big, and females often mate with another chimp than the chief.
> in that case it is important to ensure you make the best chance still to get the female pregnant of your offspring, so the chief will always try to be the last one to mate again, and they have huge testicles, in comparison to man he would have to have three kilo balls..
> so both the size difference of the male female and the size of the testicles are a good indication of the level of tendency for promiscuity of the female.
> yeah, next question?
> humans are sort of in the middle, medium size smiley, a bit of promiscuity undeniably so.
> but with differences, man in general tends to go for most opportunities lowering even his level of standards a bit for casual sex, while woman if she does, usually goes for someone with a bit of a ‘higher’ level than her usual mate, man focusing most on looks, woman focusing more on power and money.
> this is simply a general truth, stemming from group hierarchies in the era of evolutionary adaptation,
> it does not mean it all has to happen, it is just a set up that can be controlled if wanted by cultural factors and upbringing and not to forget other factors like love and attachment and the risk of losing etc.
> another nice example is the finding pregnancy morning sickness turns out to be an adaptation of the female body to avoid certain strong foods that the adult body easily digests but that contain teratogens threatening the development of the fetus.
> large interdisciplinary studies have confirmed it is highly probable it being an adaptation and useful.
> there is also something called Darwinian medicine a bit of a confusing term that can iasily be misinterpreted as it is merely an addition to medical science, and adds a larger view, like they pointed out that when we have an infection, like a cold, the body reacts with fever and iron levels drop in the blood.
> what does usual medicine often do?
> give medication to lower the fever and give iron supplies.
> now the bacteria or viruses need iron to replicate themselves, and can’t stand high temperatures, so withdrawing iron from the blood and raising body temperature is adaptive, helps the body to survive.
> so medicine should make a difference between symptoms caused by the virus or bacteria which should be treated and symptoms that are a healthy response of the body defending itself.
> and so much more, it is an interesting and developing field, adding a new viewpoint that can certainly be useful in many ways.
> ps thanks for the congrats, Gretchen and blog buddies, the news did lift my spirits up when I got the e-mail, smiley
Margaret, thanks for this. And Daniel might thank you as well… 🙂 It sounds fascinating, though more connected with biology than with the study of the mind, which is what I usually associate psychology with. I am not a scientist, nor will I ever will be (I’m abysmal at maths), but there are lots of areas that fascinate me, and I always appreciate it when scientists – or science students – can explain ideas in ways that make sense to me as a layperson and bring them to life. I see this get derided as “pop science”, though I don’t know why.
Interesting about how medicine often suppresses symptoms and views this as treatment. I had a similar experience to the example you describe of the treatment of infection. Years ago when I was living in LA I got addicted to the anti anxiety drug ativan for several months. This led to me suffering a huge lethargy that I didn’t initially link to the drug. Finally I did and went cold turkey – a truly horrendous experience – to quit the habit and get my strength back. During that time I was feeling massive anxiety as there was a rebound from all the time I’d been on the drug. I talked to a local Dr who prescribed me beta blockers to try and help, which just had the effect of making me feel I was going even crazier. Then I saw what was happening. The Dr thought that the way to treat my anxiety was to reduce rapid heart beat with the beta blocker. She saw the rapid heart beat as a cause of anxiety, but in fact I needed my heart to beat fast as a direct response to the anxiety (ascending primal pain). Since my body couldn’t absorb the rising terror it went more into my head which made me feel I was going even crazier. So I immediately stopped the beta blockers and the anxiety dropped away.
Glad to hear the news has lifted your spirits.
Thanks M. The study of evolutionary psychology is pretty exciting. Sounds like you’re hooked.
> before I read my tonight’s comments, some nice news I got.
> my brother opened up the envelope of the Open University containing my certificate and also a letter with my score.
> I really expected a 6, but then my brother read… a 9!!!
> I felt exhilarated, this time I really did not think it had gone that well, so many tricky and unclear questions, so well, it feels really good.
> we visited our mom and also the old house, just me and my brother, and it strongly felt like having to say goodbye to all the little old tits and tats she gathered over the years, a lot of really pretty what they refer to as ‘brocante’.
> and some nice furniture, but well we do not have that much room in our own homes to put more stuff..
> I did take two reasonably small items, a handbell with a very clear sound, she had several but well, I picked out one, and something to hang on the wall.
> my brother also found papers we need to invest as some of them seem strange, as if someone tried to set her up.
> and then we also have to sort out the hassles about insurances and papers they want us to sign for not agreeing on moving her into a ‘protected’ ward.
> we won’t sign anything before thoroughly checking it out, as part of it simply feels like pressure on us to allow them to move her to another ward so they have less work with her.
> my brother is working hard and good on all of this, it is nice we understand each other without a lot of words, today we both had a feeling of nostalgia and having to say goodbye, somewhat sad.
> mom was ok, nice but very repetitive and deaf so more repetitions still.
> we will probably buy her another hearing aid, although she keeps losing them or not using them, at least she did so in the past.
> but having to shout at her over and over about the same stuff is exhausting so it might be worth a try..
> ok, now am gonnna read the rest of the comments.
> Larry, I liked what you said about appreciating the experience of being here and now on this very planet in this here galaxy and seeing it for the adventure it really is.
> as a child most things are exciting, with poor eyesight it seems more difficult to get back in touch with that thrill, but luckily my visual memory is vivid and tends to fill in stuff.
> not the same, but well, that’s life too..
That’s always nice to find out about doing much better than you thought. That’s quite an achievement, especially considering the difficulties it involves.
> ps I think I forgot to mention that gorillas, for being sure they are the sole ones mating with ‘their’ females, have tiny testicles.
> they do not need to compete with the sperm/genes from rival males.
> man is in between the chimpansees with their huge and the gorillas with the small ones.
> so the females are (in inclination) not entirely evolved to be very promiscuous but not to complete faithfulness either.
> at least that is the biological design stemming from more than 10000 bC when we lived in groups of average 20 to 50 or a bit more members, gatherer hunters.
> we started eating more and more meat when our evolving species moved out from the jungles to a more open savannah when the climate got warmer.
> it is interesting, and amazing how long ago tools were already used to some degree, and rafts made or fire, and later on controlled fire, cloths and art.
> the Neanderthal man and the other , I forgot his name, were actually pretty intelligent, and it is still not entirely clear if there has been interbreeding with the actual homo sapiens or not.
> mitochondrial evidence following back the maternal genetic lines seems to say no, but it is not sure.
> and well, some present humans seem to have some Neandethal looks sometimes, smiley, which does not need to be an insult, as i said they were pretty smart and developed and their brains had more or less a similar size to the other species of homo in those times.
> it is an interesting field of study, would not make it my field but still..
I heard somewhere recently that there is now evidence for interbreeding between homo sapiens and Neanderthals.
Another fairly recent theory which piqued my interest, that there’s some evidence for, is that we evolved our larger brains when we made the change from eating raw meat to eating cooked meat. My understanding is digestion takes up more energy than any other bodily process, so when we started cooking meat it would have freed up an enormous amount of energy. And there’s some evidence I believe in the evolutionary time – line that puts a correspondence between an increase in human brain size and the move to eating cooked meat. It makes sense to me. I don’t think this means that barbeque’s increase IQ, though it’s a nice idea. 🙂
Is there any clinical application for evolutionary psychology or to you plan to move onto research?
> David, thanks, and my pleasure.
> evolutionary psychology actually tries to focus as well on mental processes.
> for example anxiety, as they see it, without looking at what they refer to as proximate or developmental causes, leaving them in their value but simply looking at them in a different way as well, they say we might be prone to have a bit of a tendency to be ‘too’ scared, as that increased our fitness to survive.
> it is like a msmoke detector, it is better to have the occasional false alarm for being too sensitive, than to risk it not going off to then be eaten by the partly hiddden tiger…
> so ears pricking up out of the high weeds, a stripy tip of a tail, aaaargh!!!
> also for depression they think of an explanation which is still speculative but makes sense.
> to feel down and depressed is often linked to being not as succesful as wished for in the hierarchic struggle for success.
> when failing and having to admit being beaten by someone, there is a temporary tendency to draw back and stay out of sight, feel down, and avoid the stronger one for a while.
> that was a useful adaptation to survive in a group with a natural pecking order as most groups have, but in today’s world, where we are bombarded with perfect role models and clips of wealthy extravagant life styles, we still live with a very slowly evolving design made up for small and intimate groups with support of kin members and reciprocation of favours within the group.
> more and more in present society these small family or village groups fall apart, and are ‘replaced’ by vast and very loose and changing groups we loosely identify with but in which we can never or rarely succeed and get the satisfaction of gaining esteem on the social ladder.
> so more feelings of loneliness and failure, unaccomplishment etc., we are not pretty, rich , succesful or smart enough to compete with all the input from the media we get, ever.
> it is an aspect that makes sense.
> there are other examples that might have more practical usefullness, but it is a field in full development and is specially interesting to find common aspects between cultures that look at first sight completely different.
> I am not very good at explaning this, sorry, but I am sure there must be good books about the subject.
> one other interesting item is the inavoidable controversy that is bound to rise when one kid, or animal baby as well, from a species that needs a lot of parental investment, reaches the age where its mother feels like starting on a new kid and that gets born.
> suddenly the first kid, who still feels the need for all the attention and food from its mom it can get, in an ultimate sense to promote its 100 percent own genes, has to deal with a parent that only shares 50 percent of her genes with him and feels like having anoterh kid with also 50 percent of her genes and so on and so on.
> so there is on that moment kind of an inbuilt struggle for a while, the first kid wanting to keep it all still, the mother wanting to diminish his share as she needs to spread it to a newcomer.
> these are just general lines which do not mean a determined way of action as there is more to us than our genotype, our complex brains allow us to control and steer our impulses and find ways to deal with situations as they arise.
> that is the whole idea, we seem to be evolved as to at best deal with new situations and adapt ourselves.
That is why we live on every land surface on earth. No other species does.
I’m off from work today because the office is closed, doctors had to go to the airport, so I got lucky. I spent some time fooling around on the internet looking for jobs, new careers, or career training. I found something that might be of interest, becoming a patient advocate. This could make use of my knowledge and experience in healthcare. There are no rigid requirements as far as education and no professional certifications since it is a newly emerging field. There are jobs in
hospitals, companies, and it’s possible to start a business with this. I was looking at some online programs which wouldn’t require a large investment. I’m not sure if I’d like to pursue this or not but it’s encouraging to find out about it.
Sounds like progress Phil!
Phil, that is a good idea. Where I work, they have had Patient Advocates for many many years. If you like helping people directly, instead of just through testing and/or examining their bodily fluids, you will probably do well with this!
What you say here is encouraging. I want to do something helpful and important for people. Making donuts, for example, wouldn’t do it for me. . I’m sick and tired of lab testing, I have been doing it too long and want to be done with it.
I think the examination of fungus in the study of evolution (as opposed to the bacteria or virus) is under-researched. . Fungus can get into your bones and change them. For example, when our cat first got sick years ago with cryptococcus, one of the first things we noticed was that his head had shrunk. There i said it, and I won’t take it back.
Geez! I hope I never get sick with cryptococcus.
I think it’s immune compromised people who are susceptible to cryptococcus infections, and otherwise it’s rare.
Hi Phil. I took it that Otto was taking a stab a humour when he claimed his cat’s head shrank. My reply that I hope I don’t catch it was my attempt at humour along the shrinking head theme, which obviously fell flat. I will now slink off the comedy stage, deflated.
I missed the jokes here. But I did google the shrunken heads theme just now. They could swell if anything, so maybe it was a joke. I also did some reading on how South American tribes prepared shrunken heads. That was no joke.
Phil, BB told me long ago that I would miss the days when my youngest son was around, when he was about 12 years old. And of course, I squandered those days trying to eke out a living, but mostly because of the pain of my own lonely youth. You know what, i am not going to go into the sad details today. too hot. 107??? My failures as a dad: ce la vie, or maybe que sera sera, or maybe…FUCK ME! bad daddy. horrible daddy. oh well….I didn’t really have a daddy either. Thank god he has thrived in spite of me.
Otto, I hope my younger son will stay around for a while. But some of his friends are talking about going away to college or the armed forces and now he feels a little anxious to do that too. Like it’s what he’s supposed to do. I told him there’s no rush, that I like having him at home, but It could be a good thing for him to go away, so he should do whatever he wants. It’s hard for him because he’s quite attached to his friends and that seems to be foremost in his mind.
His older brother doesn’t look likely to end up living right around here, but hopefully at least in the northeast.
Patrick, you said “there is like about 8 articles about the Nice truck and while having different ‘takes’ on it they ALL accept the story as given. Totally accept it happened as they were ‘told’. ” I said something some other day in this blog about the ‘REAL” conspiracies. We are all lied to on a daily basis (for some reason), I am sure that the Irish grow up thinking Englishmen are evil because of what they hear from their parents and around town, and vice versa. Margaret, I am wondering, in an “evolutionary psychology” view, when did mankind start to be such fucking liars? I don’t think dogs lie, or maybe I am missing something. Also I figured out something finally, or maybe i read it somewhere. But i was walking down the street early in the morning with the dog, 2 days in a row i see this middleaged woman obviously waiting for a ride to work. And one of the days, she was on the cell phone and apparently, the ride was not coming and she scurried down the street to catch the bus probably. But my thought was, that she saw me, and that maybe she superstitiously thought that i was the reason that her ride did not come. So i postulated that this was how religion must have started. The bigger rational brain that mankind was growing the many early years of evolution, that brain needed to make sense out of things, to compartmentalize, or associate. So if lightning struck, monkeymen might wonder why, and they could literally see no actual reason for it. Thus they created an invisible “god” in their head, to fill in the spaces, to make things make sense. I am probably not explaining this well, and i actually feel like i used to when i was taking acid. so maybe J al Lennonakbar said it better, god is a concept, by which we measure our pain. I never really understood what he meant about that….And now i am looking back at what i wrote above about Lying. Lying to ourselves might actually be a physiological response that some people call neurosis. Ok i am thinking too much. good night. babble
Otto – it’s true in a way we grew up being ‘taught’ English people were evil but speaking for myself at least I did not believe it. Deep down I thought English people were wonderful smarter, cooler, and better at everything than me/us. So that kind of ‘colonialism’ can be tricky and it is I think typical of a ‘victim’ to ‘adore’ his abuser when there is no other choice to be had. ‘self hatred’ is a strong force and causes endless problems maybe that is why the Jews guard against it so much. Though personally I think they would benefit from it it might be the beginning of ‘wisdom’ for them but I have a feeling we will have WW3 and maybe the destruction of all life on this planet before that will happen. Scary!
Daniel – I will write down here as the comment gets too ‘skinny’ up there. Anyway to me you seem to have a remarkable ability to ‘elucidate’ and ‘explain’ some detail but more often than not to obscure a bigger and more important point. Often while SOUNDING ‘educated’ and ‘learned’ which can make for interesting ‘details’ the real purpose of effect seems to be to hide what is more important.
So now according to you it seems you might even be conceding Nurenburg WAS based on torture and ‘war atrocity propoganda’ of the Allies and while later (you seem to be admitting) the ‘holocaust denial laws’ make it impossible for an accused to defend himself in that his ‘defence’ will and Is a ‘crime’ itself there was a bit in the middle there for maybe 20 years or so after the war the courts were actually OK and followed ‘normal’ legal procedures. I will admit I don’t know the details of this but I suspect if you do you are as I say using it to hide and not to reveal. I think it’s better to keep to the big point and keep it simple……………the WHOLE story was a massive made up lie and it has been enforced and promoted in many many different ways. But the details as put forward by you changes nothing you have endless lies trying to establish something that never happened. Whether this is being done by crushing testicles or bogus anti holocaust discussion laws make little difference.
Why not focus on the bigger picture………….that there WAS a ‘holocaust’ in WW2 and it happened in places like Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nakasaki, Tokyo, Berlin etc etc. More people died in Dresden in one night that all Jews that died in the German labor and transit camps in the entire war. And those deaths were almost all to do with disease and starvation due to Allied bombing starving the camps of EVERYTHING and nothing to do with mythical ‘human gas chambers’. The
Allies were keen to avoid looking at that so very conveniently make a big ‘story’ to change the subject
To establish that we have the Jewish ‘story tellers’ and their tradition of exaggeration and drama mixed in with endless self pity and as always mixed in with liberal doses of LIES. All people have their traditions of course but as a ‘learned’ man maybe you could explain how some of this works in your culture. I would be a bit interested but honestly I don’t think you are the man to do it though you are a lot better than most Your ‘group loyalty’ as always holds you back and you do not want to become a ‘self hating Jew’…………..that is reserved for OTHER people it seems for example the more the Germans (or Muslims) hate themselves the more they are praised and ‘respected’. But that is the typical double standard like constantly crying about ‘racism’ while building a country (Israel) BASED on racism. With all the ‘laws’ to bring it about once you ‘disputed’ that too on these kind of narrow grounds but let’s keep it simple shall we Israel is a racist state and only getting more so everyday while encouraging the rest of the world to ‘race mix’.That kind of hypocricy is par for the course
This discussion is pointless. I do not wish to continue it.
Go on believing that thousands upon thousands of people – victims, perpetrators, judges, collaborators, standers-by, rescuers, historians- of various nationalities and religions all lie.
Go on believing that thousands upon thousands of documents all lie.
Go on deluding yourself you belong to some kind of a group of Galileos who impartialy fight for the truth rather than hateful and ignorant degenerates with too much time on their hands.
Go on do your worst. We’ll do our best.
At least it seems I won’t go to jail for it for now and hopefully forever. It in noticeable that the English speaking countries and I am thinking of the UK US and Ireland have avoided so far at least these terrible ‘laws’ against free speech and free thinking. Europe sadly is kind of a lost cause at this point at least when it comes to that. And if you think about it means nobody there can raise any meaningful comments about these ‘terror events’ there as being Mossad inspired which I believe they very much are. That now is not so different to the Soviet Union in it’s worst times and I’m afraid the forces that compel this kind of tyranny are the same in both cases…………again Israeli/Jewish/Mossad inspired. Scary!
Daniel – there are a FEW, very few sadly ‘self hating Jews’ one you might know about David Cole who went to Auschwitz and made a video where the the then ‘director’ of Auschwitz this was I think in the ’60’s admitted most of the ‘show’ put on at A. was bogus. “Human gas chamber’ was a Soviet mock up AFTER the war for example he showed how impossible the whole ‘story’ was…………….mind you he did suffer for it David Cole I mean, he had to go underground for about 20 years. Anyway just to say there ARE some brave exceptions.
That is another reason I found Gretchen’s initial reaction to Dr K so amazing and so dissapointing. Calling him a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’. I thought ‘primal people’ might be more open or whatever well no and no and she has only ‘doubled down’ on this attitude ever since. Mind you Janov has done the same with his ‘theory’ rather than admitting some serious problems. (like lots of suicides) Is that another ‘cultural characteristic’ you might be able to enlighten me/us
“The best guess is yes, there were gas chambers” he says. “But there is still a lot of murkiness about the camps. I haven’t changed my views. But I regret I didn’t have the facility with language that I have now. I was just a kid,” he said this week. David Cole. Educate yourself!
Sounds like more ‘Daniel type quibbling’ at the edges…………you constantly leap to self serving type conclusions. You have NO idea of the real details here maybe David Cole HAD to say that to come out of hiding, maybe he is mistaken maybe he was mistaken maybe he did not go far enough, maybe maybe maybe but you also ‘conclude’ something. I pity your ‘patients’ but not only yours. Look to the big picture and the truth if that is not too difficult……..probably it is though.
I have not seen or heard so much about this latest ‘terror event’ in Munich. But the indications are not good 2 days ago Ole Dammegard probably the best in the world at deconstrucing these events focused on a photographer called Richard Gutjar (spelling may be off no need Daniel to focus on minutiae like this) who he said produced most of the ‘official’ photographs from Nice (was there ANY other photos? it seems no)……….well guess what the same guy shows up in Munich with more photos. This I find interesting because Dammegard talked about all this BEFORE Munich so this is beyond suspicious. This supports his theory of a travelling troupe including photographers, publicists, crisis actors etc etc. If all of this was subjected to ‘normal’ criminal investigations this nonsense would have been busted long ago. In Munich now all that has to be ‘decided’ is the shooter(s) Muslim nutcases or Neo Nazi nut cases. That’s your choice class and ONLY that choice…………………..kind of ignores the perpetrators behind the scenes GIVING you that choice. Remember the Mossad dictum “Be deception we make war” also what a co-incidence BOTH of your ‘choices’ are rank ‘anti-semites’ if you are content drinking this swill good luck to you but I am not……………….here’s a bit about thi