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oh jeez, no one talking. wonder if i cant get my nerve up and say something. uh oh still no opening, they are starting to talk about news and what-not. I dont want to be a part of that, all i want to do is pry open my mouth and talk about myself. now i have to wait until the first guy stops talking. he usually takes about half an hour. and then see that lady, who is bursting at the seams with what she wants to say. well, you dont have to talk to get something out of group, according to Donald Trump, in between his rants on Arabs. oh wait, this is not the start of group? ha!
i took some videos at the kid’s phd graduation. i messed up my good camera so i had to use my work blackberry. surprisingly good video. but what pisses me off is that i am so afraid of people, if they look at me, i stop filming. and i wanted to be a photographer and film-maker! ha. then we had our grad dinner at louisa’s and i could not get the blackberry out of my pocket, same reason, afraid of people, and too tired to push past it. it would have really been a good video too. shit. hate this shit.
actually, they dont even have to look at me, i can barely force myself to take the videos of people. cant remember if i have always been that way. i had a love affair with cameras for a long long time, my good uncle like to take pictures too, especially of me and my brother I found a bunch of old cameras in my grandmother’s hall drawers, probably in the 4th or 5th grade. I took pix with my instamatic at military school and with our 8mm Bell and Howell movie camera at that graduation. made a friend in the 7th grade who took my desire to make movies to a new level, that went on from junior high through high school and after. Then joined the navy to get away after my friend’s murder, and I was in the Navy photo school, and stationed in Rota photo unit. Drugs and alcohol and my personality kept me from getting anywhere with my dream. my love affair with cameras died during marriage. dropped out of film class when my wife’s dad died during that time. couldn’t afford to get film’s developed of kid pix, at some point when my wife lost her job and went back to school in 1992 or so. now i dont care much about it, nearing the end, so what the f is the use? Ha!
Otto, I’ve enjoyed photography for a long time, but decades ago I stopped doing it because of the cost of film and the cost of developing my film and prints in my own little darkroom, or because of the lack of creative control and the cost of having them developed elsewhere.
Going digital is less expensive and rekindled my passion. For me it’s fun working on my digital images with Lightroom and Photoshop (I initially had pirated copies). It’s like having a darkroom on my computer.
When I’m in the mood to take photos, I get a lot of joy in doing it, in working on them, and ultimately in just sharing them with friends and family. I realize that I take them to communicate an inspiration, a feeling, or a moment that I experience and want to share. Definitely I need an audience. Definitely I need the connection with people that photography brings me, the bringing out and revealing a side of me that they affirm in their responses to my images. Otherwise without and audience I feel very alone and I agree, what’s the use.
The past several years after the death of my wife I feel very alone and my passion for photography withered. I saw nothing but dull and grey, hurt and futility in a world that once inspired me. But the photography interest still flickers and flares up now and then, and in a rare these days inspired moment of joy and trust in life I’m rewarded in the capturing, editing, and sharing of images that compel me and that people like seeing.
Otto and Larry,
I’ve loved photography also since I was in my teens, when I got my first SLR and taught myself darkroom techniques. Then for similar reasons as you describe Larry, it fell away until the price of digital equipment came down enough and the quality went up enough that it became viable to get back into it. I borrowed a friend’s digital camera in exchange for adding him to the insurance on my car, so he could borrow it and get around when he needed to, and suddenly I was hooked again. Street photography and landscapes I’ve particularly enjoyed. I then started shooting weddings – basically the only way to make money from photography in your community – so this expensive hobby could start paying for itself. I also hoped that it might become a successful business. However, I found out pretty quickly how uber competitive it is, plus I’m not that great at marketing myself, so it stayed at the semi pro level.
Shooting weddings can be fun and rewarding, capturing the rage of emotions that often it takes a wedding (or funeral) for many people to express in public. It is also stressful as you can’t really make mistakes. You can’t say “Could you please cut the cake again”. It can also feel very lonely being in a loved up environment like that, where the bride and groom are the only ones I’ve previously talked to briefly and most other people there are familiar with each other and joining in the celebration. On several occasions I’ve felt it throw my single life into painful relief and I’ve come home to cry about how unloved and alone I feel.
I also feel my inspiration for photography wax and wane. At the moment I don’t take out my camera unless I have a wedding to shoot. Or else if I go on a camping trip to a beautiful part of the country, like the Lake District here in the UK which I particularly love. I have Lightroom for editing too. What is taken in camera is very often just the raw material that gets to be molded and crafted to create hopefully a compelling final image. I also appreciate that there are platforms like Facebook and Flickr etc for sharing photography with friends so that the way I express my creativity in this way can be seen and appreciated. And I can get others to see the world through my eyes in this unique way.
How nice to meet fellow lovers of photography on the blog, David and Otto. I never felt good enough about myself that I would take on the responsibility of a wedding shoot., and I felt way too shy and insecure to be able to put people at ease while photographing them in prearranged poses.
I have been asked and several times have agreed to photograph the children’s Christmas party at work. It was pretty scary to do at first, and a lot of work editing the images later…cropping, correcting exposure, sharpening…but it was rewarding. The parents loved the impromptu pictures of their kids, and the photos of them on Santa’s knee, including one or two of the kids crying their heads off. Even a lot of people at work who weren’t at the party loved seeing the pictures on the common shared folder on our work network.
I get a lot of positive feedback from photography, but I can’t pick up the camera in a quest for positive feedback. Instead I need to feel the desire and inspiration first and can only hope that I come up with something that excites me and that people will enjoy. Most of my stuff is not good enough to show to anyone.
actually, i worked at various photo finishing places after that film school ending, kept the dream going, until booze and stupidity made the dream impossible.
someone i still know interuppted my exercycling today to tell me of her need to purchase shorts to fulfill her need to go to hawaii with kid, who said he would pay for the trip. her need for a trip while i stay home to watch 2 dogs for 2 weeks, driving home at lunch, during rush hour traffic, so i can put them outside so their bladders dont burst or they dont pee all over their rooms, and then drive back, to work in rush hour traffic. of course, i had to tell her i have needed work shoes for 6 months now. what a bitch i am. what a tool. what a victim. i like to make myself miserable, so what a masochist i am too. lets seee if i can fill up thjis page with my misery.
subscribing
> this morning thinking about my mom in her (nice) new room and a welcoming place, there even was a paper sign above her door when we arrived there yesterday, saying ‘welcome’, it did strike me she will sooon be 86 and we are bound to lose her in the coming years..
>
> that will be so hard I can’t get my thoughts around it well yet..
>
> it will leave such an empty gap it is hard to conceive at this point, so I better keep focusing on the present and on how to make the best of it.
> my brother asked my halfsister to come over to the house and help out, which is good, I will join them and it will be nice as well as a bit painful, it is nice the family gets closer again under these circumstances.
> hope I can get the phone company to go there and fix my mom’s phone so we and she can communicate again..
> M
> just got my mom on the phone, it got connected this morning after a few insistant calls I made to the company, and it is so nice my mom sounded very cheerful really.
> she was still wondering a bit about her situation there, but definitely acknowledging she might start enjoying it, the company and the very friendly atmosphere, and she does like her room that has everything she needs, and mentioned specifically her stuffed animals smiley..
>
> it was great to hear her so awake and cheerful, I am still letting it sink in, not quite daring to belive it completely..
>
> it was funny when I mentioned the chickens to her, she put the phone aside and looked around her room for a few seconds, came back on and said no chickens here dear, haha, and we both laughed when I said no, not in your room, in the garden, the chickens…
>
>
> told my brother how good she sounded and he will call her later on today.
>
>
> oops, just got a call from the director of the home,
> explaining they had had a hard time with my mom this morning, as she was all set to leave, and she can be very stubborn.
>
> he was nice, promised to be patient with her, I told him they can call me at any moment of the day or night and I can talk sense into her if necessary.
> he had had the great idea to bring her to the piano and solve the problem in that very wise practical way.
> I told him we would come by tomorrow and her friend as well and he will take her along for a walk on sunday, and i will also come on monday and he sounded relieved as he worries about her safety when occasionally they might have no choice but to let her go out, as she is not in a secluded ward.
> it is a question of shared responsibility he said, and I would not blame him if my mom did go out and something happened at this point as she can be incredibly pigheaded.
>
> but he was nice and promised me thy would invest energy in supporting her to adjust, and warn me if there is a problem.
>
> he was glad to hear she had been so positive about her stay there to me on the phone, but added they had had to talk with her for an hour and a half that morning, as she forgets whatever has been said and agreed before…
>
> they are al so nice and understanding there, he sounded like a very sweet man and said he knows my mom for a while already as she came by regrlarly to play the piano.
>
> hope she adjusts and does not become to rebellious..
> M
Margaret,
I hope your mother soon makes the adjustment. Lot’s of good company there and care, Nice that the director is so concerned. it sounds like a great place for her to be. Congratulations on making that move so successfully yesterday.
Phil
Margaret, I’m glad your mother’s transition to the nursing home went smoothly and you and she are happy and she is adjusting well to her new home. You deserve some nice moments, Margaret. You were very thoughtful and caring and worked hard to help your mother adjust. I also felt sad after reading your entry describing the events and experience of the day of the move.
As I explored why I felt sad, I began to cry. Your mother’s move reminded me of and I felt the transitions in my life that brought me closer to the end of what I know and that I want to keep…not have to lose.
I was reminded of and felt the transitions toward losing my parents, losing Noreen, the transition into older age, and soon the transition into work retirement and losing my last major anchor left in my life…my job that gives me a place to go, people to be with, meaning, purpose, and a feeling of self worth. I cried imagining that by the time I retire I will have lost everything that made life worthwhile and all I’m left with is me, alone.
I cried angry at this stupid therapy that doesn’t bring my wife back for me, nor does it bring my parents back and give me a chance to finally get from them love and attention that was so lacking in my growing up with them. I cried that this therapy can’t make me young again and in mid-career. As i cried my hurt and felt my emptiness, I felt angry that all this dumb therapy can do is take me to the point of being aware of the void and my need. All it does it take me to the edge of feeling the hurt of emptiness of loss and unmet need that is mine to know and bear forever. This therapy can’t fill that need. Nothing can bring my parents back and make them love me. It can’t bring my wife back. It can’t make me young and energetic again and return me to mid-life and mid-career. It can’t do anything about me being all alone with a void from losses that are forever. This therapy can’t change any of that for me. It’s all up to me to otherwise fill my life, with all of the void and hurt in me making me doubt myself and weakening my resolve.
I cried feeling how much I miss my wife and the love between us that grounded and centered me and gave me strength to meet life’s challenges. And then somehow the crying and feeling the strength and joy that our love gave each other helped me remember and feel that to her I was a worthwhile person. Remembering and feeling it helped to give me strength for now and the challenges ahead for me as I make my life anew, alone and afraid.
> Larry,
> you must also have read there are still moments that don’t go so smoothly, like when she was all set to leave this morning seemingly.
>
> but your last sentence illustrates somehow something very worthwhile all of this contains, which is we can always reconnect with new nice people.
> the generous friendliness of everyone working there we met so far, is heartwarming, and immensely valuable as it enables frightened distressed people to start trusting and feel safe by being taken care of and reassured by the people they depend on.
>
> I am sure in plenty of places it is not that good at all, but so far this home stands for all the good things warm human contact can bring, even from complete strangers, and how in some situations this can be life saving in many ways.
> simple niceness means so much to someone who is scared and we are so lucky to have found a place where it seems a natural state of behavior.
> also for us, not only for our mom, it makes a world of difference.
>
> the director could have been cross and could have made a problem about our mom’s behaviour, but no he was kind and reassuring, it is all so unexpectedly warm and caring it makes me feel really touched and almost teary.
> like when i called my mom after her lunch, her former cleaning lady was there visiting her, she is also such a warm person, and really likes my momm, and went to visit her during her own lunch break and promised to do so regularly.
>
> sorry Larry if I ended a bit abruptly but I got two phonecalls at the same time while writing the reply.
>
> one was from my mom’s doctor whom the home must have contacted this morning when she was rebellious and wanted to leave.
> I listened to his voice mail and was unpleasantly surprised at hearing he planned to go there and restart the medication, as in his words ‘they like people under their care to be calm’.
> I think he meant that in general, as I just caught him on his cellphone while he was already standing with the nurse of the home, and told him the director had had a much better approach than medication by simply bringing her to the piano.
> I told him my mom is overall ok, with just occasional moments of difficulty in adjusting, and luckily I heard the nurse confirm to the doctor there had been no problem at all i the afternoon.
> they gave her an electronic bracelet which sets of a warning sign if she goes out to the street, and a step counter or something like that, maybe to know more or less how far she is??
>
> he had to hang up by then, but I will definitely keep an eye on things so he does not prescribe the medication again unnecessarily.
> I feel disappointed he was so ready to do so, boy, he has his priorities wrong..
>
> well, so far so good, though this was a close cal from him getting our mom drugged again just for commodity sake.
>
> maybe he expected the home would make problems or lock her up or something, but they did not sound as if they were planning anything like that at all.
>
> sigh..
> this does take a lot of energy and I am so glad we can share this as it must be horrible to have to deal with all the stuff witout support.
>
> had to recontact the phone company once more as the closure of the internet and digital tv was not in order yet.
>
> etc
> got interrupted once more, this time by the doorbell, again one of the neighors tthat keep going out without their keys, very irritating.
>
> called mom but that was a mistake, she was all worked up and too tired to understand or remember any explanation or information I gave her, so I had to tell her she was too tired and me too to continue the conversation and we’d come by tomorrow.
>
> I can imagine now how a momentary relaxing shortterm med might be useful, as she tends to get belligerant when she gets into this kind of mood.
>
> she was all confused about where she was and where she would go and what was her stuff and does not seem to remember all of this was actually her own decision, she does believe it but instantly forgets and then gets all worked up again.
>
> so it is better to leave her right now, hope noone else calls as she seems incapable now of processing anything and it works the wrong way trying to talk to her.
> ok, a phonecall from my brother just came that got interrupted by my doorbell, and then he got interrupted by another call, and will call me right back….
>
> this is a bit too hectic for my taste, but well, will have to cope with it all.
> M
Bernadette,
“…it seems that if I could say and feel “I’m sorry for being a girl” there would be still some hope left that he will love me in the end….. But to totally give up hope it would have to be the feeling “he doesn’t love me, no matter what”
It’s really sad that your dad couldn’t accept you for who you are. As I’m sure you know, there are layers to this and there isn’t one all encompassing primal feeling that covers it all. “I’m sorry” may well be a big feeling for you that is part of it. It might be one of the “upper” layers. For me, in my experience, hopelessness is at the bottom insofar as it is the most devastating primal feeling I’ve ever felt. “Please love me” is a very intense feeling of grief, but feeling that a parent doesn’t love you no matter what – the hopelessness of that feels like complete despair. That hopelessness is something I only get to when I feel like I’m really at the end of my rope. The payoff though in feeling it is that the sense of relief afterwards is correspondingly huge.
“According to Janov, we get some sort of amnesia around the event, sometimes not remembering two or more years surrounding the time it happened. I do have a hard time remembering my years from age 3 to 6”
I have pockets of amnesia as well. I remember the night before my first day at school, crying that I didn’t want to go, but nothing about what actually happened when I got there or anything really in my first year. My second year in school I remember being teased with the book that had the image I’ve connected with sexual abuse, but not much else. I relate to what you write about your father’s anger and as well and feeling like you were walking on egg shells all the time. Most of the time my father’s anger didn’t come out in rages, though it sometimes did. It was more like the threat of anger was overhanging everything most of the time, so I didn’t know when it might come, so it was best to just stay away from him as much as possible. It felt very controlling and frightening.
David, I’m not sure whether my feeling “I’m sorry” is in the upper or lower level of pain for me; either could be true. I’m not feeling it at this time, so I will let it surprise me when it surfaces. I seem to be focused on my dad, but when I lie down, I have feelings about my mother. My need for dad, and his rejection / disdain for me are so painful that I can only take so much. Then I bounce back to mom and tell her “daddy doesn’t love me.” And then comes the need for my mother, which I can’t allow myself to have. I cried a bit this afternoon after remembering seeing my mother hugging and comforting my younger brothers and sister, and I couldn’t go to her for the same comfort. Something stopped me then, and as annoying as it seems at the moment, something is stopping me now from feeling it. I suspect the feelings you described (“please love me” and hopelessness) are the very same that I need to feel and I’m reluctant to go there because of the tremendous pain awaiting me. I might as well have denied and repressed forever the need for mom “please love me” because a) I know she can’t love me, and b) I don’t trust her. Having a need like that for my dad is hopeless to begin with! I know in order to heal, I must allow myself to feel the need for both. I’m sure the payoff is huge, as you say… But I can feel the resistance….! I am my worst enemy.
Thinking about amnesia caused by trauma: I have so many traumatic incidents in my young life, I am surprised that I can remember anything, or that I survived, for that matter. I do have some lovely memories as a toddler, crawling on the garden patio, watching colonies of ants, walking through tall grass, looking at flowers, small toys I had, the glittering Christmas tree; but also a horrible memory of being stuck in a play pen. My big horror started when I was 3, and the most traumatic time was between 3 and 6; I only remember traumas in that time period, and that’s only by means of recovering memory through therapy; most of it is still in a fog. Like it was for you, the threat of anger was in the air at all times, that is, when my father was home. It was so evident, the minute he walked into the house, the children would become quiet and withdrawn. But I do have some wonderful memories after the age of 6, of playing with my sister inside and outside the house, mostly when our father was at work. That’s when we were able to relax. Then we had the long summers, when we played outside with the neighbors’ kids, in the meadows, on the street, in the forest and down by the brook. I love thinking back to that time; we were allowed to ‘go wild’, build huts and dams and climb trees and make a fire and roast sausages… it was a great place to grow up. The tragic thing though is that I took it for granted that dad had such control over us. It was normal… because I didn’t know any better.
–Bernadette
> my brother and I agreed that if there would be more problems with my mom getting so worked up and unreasonable it might be useful at some point after all if they’d decide to give her some medication for a while.
>
> past a certain point there is no way to talk with her in any constructive way, the only option then is to take a time out like we did this late afternoon, telling her simply the conversation had not much use at that point as we were all tired, so we could all need some rest and would come by tomorrow.
>
> it is hard to see and hear her in that state, but there is no option to let her go back home as she is simply not fit enough for that anymore.
>
> hopefully the moments where she enjoys the place will become more and more often and stable, as she really went to the best place ever, full of nice and patient and very capable people.
>
> it does help me and my brother agree on things, and don’t blow it all up out of proportion but can still be feeling good about this necessary step having been made in a nice way.
> what happens next is partly out of our control, although we will of course do everything to help her to adjust.
> I hope she can do so soon or she risks ending up in the protected ward.
> there was no mentioning of it so far, they want to do a lot of effort to help her to settle in.
>
> so it is important me and my brother feel we did the right thing, and in a very nice way.
> hopefully a good night’s sleep does help, and at least we know she is very very well surrounded there.
> M
Margaret, it is very upsetting to read about what’s happening with your mother. It so much reminds me of what happened to mine. My mother liked it at the care home and people were very warm and caring. But she was confused at times and wanted to go home. She got angry and loud at some point refused to do certain things. I can imagine that she was frustrated for not having control over her body after the stroke and then being confined to a wheelchair and ‘locked up’ in a home where she didn’t want to be. She was not literally locked up, of course, although very limited as she couldn’t control her wheelchair on her own. They gave her more medication to subdue her. When I visited, it appeared like she was numb, she hardly recognized me and was emotionally flat – in a medication fog, as I call it. The meds caused her to have hallucinations, and she talked weird stuff all the time. I hated seeing her that way. And I am sad that I couldn’t do more for her. I’m glad you stepped in to prevent more medications for your mother!
–Bernadette
> thanks for your feedback Bernadette.
> it is useful, makes me more aware of preferring a rebellious mother who is occasionally unreasonable than a dopy one.
> we can only count on the staff’s patience, hope they give her some fair chances, as she can really be strong minded and pig headed like a mule to make a crooked comparison.
> and she can have a big mouth on some occasions while otherwise she can be nice and gentle..
> glad I stepped in as well, at least they know we are not keen on meds if they can be avoided.
> M
If I was your mother and my memory was failing, I can imagine how stressed out I would feel from finding myself in a strange place with strange people, not remembering how I got there and not being free to return to my normal life and home. It will be an anxiety ridden time for me when I am in your mother’s place.
Margaret, your mother sounds a bit like mine – stubborn, tough old cookie 🙂 I hope with you that they will treat her with patience and allow some adjusting time before they insist on medicating her, that of course only if it is necessary. I agree with Larry, it must be so frightening for her, especially as she has a hard time remembering. We made sure that each day, one of us children visited our mom. And it was always helpful to her when we all visited for hours on the weekends; it made her feel safer when she was surrounded by her family. To be fair to my sisters and brothers, they did most of the transition and visitations; I was only there for a few weeks when she first got sick and stayed at the hospital, then again when she was moved to the care home, but after a few weeks I had to return to work in the U.S. It was very painful to leave her. At least you are there and can keep an eye on your mom. Good luck, Margaret.
–Bernadette
Larry, I hear you and empathize with the loneliness you feel and the abandonment and fear; your wish and desire to make a new life. Your frustration with the therapy’s limitations; no matter how much we feel and connect to past pains, it cannot give us back what we lost, and it will not build up our life. It is so lovely that you can gain strength from remembering the love you and your wife had for each other.
–Bernadette
Don’t get me wrong Bernadette. I’m not truly frustrated with the therapy’s so called limitations. Nothing can bring back for us what is forever lost, and the beauty of this therapy it doesn’t pretend to. It just takes us to the edge of the raw truth for us to deal with in a healing way by facing it, which is a tremendous, priceless, almost miraculous achievement. The therapy gives us so very much, but for a second or two in transition to the edge of feeling that eternal void, suddenly and briefly it feels like the therapy doesn’t do nearly enough. My momentary displaced anger toward the therapy is my final distraction as I let go and plunge into the feeling abyss of what I never got and never will, or what I lost and will never get back. I’m aware as I’m feeling it that my feeling of anger is my final defense before sinking into the emptiness.
Larry, I understand and realize that your ‘frustration’ with therapy is part of the old feeling and part of the defense against the final abyss. And I’m also aware that you know this and can let yourself feel through it to the very end, or ‘eternal void’ as you call it. I am in awe of your insights and clarity of your feelings and defenses. I never meant to assume that therapy would bring back what we have lost, nor do I expect that it will build up our lives – it’s just an indication of my own unrealistic childish hopes, which are part of my old feelings, and I’m aware of it. Contrary to you, I have not been able to go into the abyss/eternal void – maybe I have briefly and forgot about it since – I’m still holding out for something, what I don’t know. Unrealistic hope, I’m sure. Your text is beautifully written!
–Bernadette
Bernadette,
I don’t think I’ve quite made it to the “abyss” either. I did some crying today in my car on the way home from work while listening to music. Not a good place to go real deep but I was thinking about how I still have somewhat of a hard shell that needs to melt away. It’s what I created to protect myself from my mother, as she hurt me so badly. It keeps me from memories and stops me from opening up to people in the way that I could. No doubt it’s part of my defenses too, and helps me to function. It consists of a lot of anger that I still need to get to. I get to anger but there always seems to be more.
Phil
Phil, yes, that seems an accurate description of the process; it’s very similar for me. I also noticed that the closer I get to the abyss, the stronger my defenses are. I cried a little bit this afternoon, remembering again seeing my mother hugging my younger siblings for comfort, but I couldn’t go to her and get the same comfort. I know there is something much more painful and deeper behind that…. I can’t feel it at this point. Maybe it is the total realization that I am on my own now. Or maybe I’m defending against ‘needing her’ or ‘needing comfort’ because I already know I won’t get what I need. I end up with a pressure headache and then have to redirect my thoughts in order to keep functioning. It’s so annoying because I really want to get through this last defense and heal. The mind-fuck (excuse the expression) is that we got hurt by our mothers and thus want to avoid her, but in order to get better, we have to allow ourselves to need her! Argh! Also, in my experience, anger can also serve as a defense. Only if the anger is expressed to the old event/person who hurt me in the past, it is a real feeling and brings relief. Always happy to hear your comments, Phil.
–Bernadette
Thanks for your responses Bernadette. What you write makes me think and touches my feelings.
Hope is hard to give up. It takes a while to even realize we’re hanging on to something that isn’t there,..never was. At the retreat last summer, I felt a little reaction to something said in group, and decided to speak up and mention it. Barry B. and the therapists had me elaborate, and soon they helped me see that a little bond I thought I had with my parents was not at all. That insight that they helped me to see has been percolating and deepening and widening all year since then, releasing rivulets of pain that’s been gathering into a bigger and bigger stream. It’s amazing to me what I didn’t and couldn’t see a year ago but am able to open to more and more now. It makes me wonder about what else can’t I let myself see.
I wonder why I don’t let myself get excited about going to the retreat. Maybe it’s because it’s not easy for me to enjoy myself when I’m there, though I do always enjoy it overall. Maybe it’s because I’m afraid of opening up, though it’s always good for me. Maybe it’s because my parents would come to visit me at my aunt and uncles or take me to the farm for a visit, but over 2 1/2 years on all those visits except the last when I was 4 didn’t take me home to stay and so I could no longer let myself get excited about seeing them. Maybe it’s because when I finally did go home to stay, I felt warmer and closer to my aunt and uncle and cousins than I did to my real Mom and Dad, and it hurt too much to know that, so I had to put walls between me and parental figures. Maybe it’s because there was no longer a bond with my parents, and I didn’t want to know that so I killed my need to bond with people. Maybe being at the retreat impinges on my awareness how I still cut myself off from people, even though I’ve made great strides in connecting. It feels safer to be at home alone, and in control. I guess the reason I don’t get excited about going to the retreat is because they are a lot of work for me and have me always on edge.
Larry, i can’t afford to retire. I tell everyone at work that asks me when i am going to retire. I tell them I have retired when they find me laying in the hall, not sure if heads up or down. My nephew said do it ass-up, to show you are sticking your ass to the man. The last guy i know who retired died a few weeks later, but they said he had not been to the doctor for years. A pharmacist friend of mine who runs 5 miles a day, he still volunteers and comes into work some hours a week. He is a personable funny guy. he is starting to show the wear and tear, but he seems happy enough. I dont think he ever married. He gets to hang around pleasant Chinese lady pharmacists in the pharmacy, and co-workers from his long work life stop to chat with him in the cafeteria. He is the one who said i should leave the sick cat out for the coyotes to eat. Other co-workers of mine, we have not heard from them since they left years ago. Presumably they are happy not having to work. If i did have the money to retire, I might sit around and smoke pot all day, or i might find all kinds of interesting stuff to do. I am not sure what the hell i am talking about, so that’s it.
That’s what I’m worried about, Otto. I’d sit around and smoke pot all day by myself, and as a result would go downhill pretty fast. Seriously though I hope I do my best to avoid that scenario, but it will be a challenge trying to put a life together all over again. Some people are good at it. Not me. I guess it feels overwhelming like a little kid might feel on his own with not enough of the love and security and support that we all need to grow up confident and strong.
Margaret, what kind of medication are you talking about?
I can’t for the life of me be kind to my wife. She just got back from her meeting, and asks me what did i cook. I dont like telling her anything about what i eat, because she has made me feel bad about it many many times. Now I just want to write here, before i go to bed and get my 5 hours of sleep before my 6th workday. i dont know what more to say on that. Lack of sleep makes me more of an asshole than i should be. And she dont give me nothing. The washer is always full of her clothes, all week long, so now i have no underwear for tomorrow,etc etc etc. I read an Ann Landers or Dear Abby column about some lady complaining about her husband leaving his socks on the floor. Abby or Ann reminded her that when he was dead, she would miss seeing his socks on the floor. if i outlive her, or divorce her, i guess i would miss seeing her clothes in the washer, her messy kitchen where she cooks the most disgustingly smelly food, the fridge where she takes up every shelf so i dont have room, the many useless nicnacs and herbs and pills she has laying around the house that have bled my wallet dry, or knowing that everytime she gets in the car with me, there will be an argument or some new need of hers brought to light.. HA! ce la vie. But the man usually goes first in these situations. HA! HA! HA! Well, it is good for me to say shit about her, maybe i would miss her. The death of our 3 pets in one year has left me kind of detached, not to mention the anti-depressant also does that. I DO feel bad for her. I kind of feel bad for my phd kid, who is taking her to Ohio for a while to aid in transitioning him. He will bear the brunt for a while of her bad-roommate style of life.
phd kid is anxious about moving to chicago/ohio, finding a place to live, taking his monster dog with him since the dog is 10 nearing end of life. the monster dog will be alone again all day after my wife comes home, like when the kid was up north at college with the dog, and that dog will be very lonely since she is currently at our house, and my wife is home all day, so the dog is with her all day. he has to rent a car for my wife for the few weeks he is in chicago and she is in ohio. and do they move her tempurpedic to ohio, since she has had very little back pain since we got it, and how to get it back here when she comes back here from 2000 miles away. real estate guy is pressuring the kid about rental houses in ohio going fast. money an issue till first paycheck. kid is still trying to finish up phd work, even though he graduated, his professor is being demanding about some papers he did not finish, but she is going on vacation so she can give him feedback to finish. i look at google maps at where he could be renting in ohio, looks too suburban, not bustling like West L.A. where i work every day. even the suburbs near west la. are bustling. sometimes too bustling i guess. i would not mind taking a crack at living in some wild place like idaho for a bit. or not. well i know nothing about ohio, maybe it is the best darned interesting and satisfying state on the planet.. i can help him troubleshoot all this stuff a little, i am not the primal dad i had hoped to be, to comfort him. etc. my dog and z’s cat will be lonely all day long without z here all day long, and probably howl and/or act out. i just ate half a loaf of bread, i guess i am anxious too. never gets easier. and yet some people will envy me my life, and call these “luxury” problems. HA! Lot of sadness and pain, is all i can see. ok go sleep make money tomorrow, that never seems to get me out of debt anyways. HA! HA! HA! fuck! go cry tomorrow if BB at PI. cant cry here at home, maybe once Z is gone.
> Otto,
> she was on a low dose of Seroquel, an antipsychotic, since last summer, but it got diminished gradually to nothing at all since last week…
> M
> my brother came and picked me up and we went to the care home
> just when we arrived on the parking lot I got a call on my cellphone from one of the caretakers on my mom’s section, telling me they had tried it all but could not find a way to keep my mom indoors as she was set on leaving, and they asked me for assistance, and I could tell them we were right there about to come up…
>
> they were so relieved when they saw us come in with a box of pastry and immediately able to distract our mom, and give them an opportunity to ‘escape’.
>
> we had a bit of work with her freshing up her memory and talking with her, but in the end she sat down enjoying the pastry, and I got the idea of inviting the other old lady from the other side of the corridor and she, Niske, was delighted to join us for some pastry and company.
>
> she Niske said it was nice and warm in our mom’s room, and cold in hers, so we sat her by the radiator and my brother went into her room to turn hers on.
>
> we turned the football on softly, Ireland Belgium, and soon everyone sat comfortably eating and chatting and commenting, so I whispered to my brother if he wanted he could go out and I would entertain the old ladies.
>
> he did go to do some stuff in the house, and I ‘watched’ the first part of the game with the ladies, one 86 and the other 85 and every time they started commenting I turned the volume down and them back up a bit when they had gone over mostly the same stuff once more.
>
> it was cosy, Niske on an easy chair, my mom on the bed, asking me to undo her shoe laces so she could take her shoes off and sit more comfortably, and me on the other side of the bed with the thing to turn the volume up and down when necessary.
>
> the half way break of the game arrived, and I asked Niske if she knew the way to the cafetaria, which she did, so I asked if they felt like going there for a treat, and yes, of course, haha!
>
> it worked out very well, we got our drinks, they also have ice cream and beer there, and had a nice talk.
> Niske had been a stenotypist and said when she heard complicated words on tv she still stenotypes them on her leg.
> she promised to invite and take my mom along for the gym on weekday mornings, and I told her my mom could teach her some piano which she always dreamed of.
>
> my brother just came back when we were about to go up as their dinners would be served..
>
> mom is still confused about it being a hospital and where she lives but a few time she could take it in she had decided to come there to live and had even told us to give the landlord notice she wanted to stop the rent of the house.
>
> other moments it was mostly confusion but some small steps were made in the right direction.
>
> we then found out she does get half a pill again from her former medication, and talked about it with the nurse, and she explained us the former night our mom had been wandering around and into the other rooms, spooking other residents.
>
> so well, I can live with the idea she gets half a pill in the evening at this point, which will make her sleep easily and will have worn off in the morning.
> it might help her to adjust without getting too worked up and upset, as it would be much worse if they would have to move her to a protected section.
>
> they are very nice there and capable, and hey, the food is fine, I ate the dessert mom had left at her lunch, and someone stored it in her fridge, and it was delicious, a big portion of freshly cooked rice pudding with fresh fruit on top, mmmm.
>
> tomorrow her boyfriend will come to get her for a hike, and maybe it is good he will also be the one bringing her back there, to get her system to accept it really is her home now, bit by bit..
>
> feel tired, but overall it was a nice afternoon, although we did arrive just barely in time..
> M
Incidentally the score in the game was Belgium 3 Ireland 0. I thought people might want to know lol
So!!! why are you laughing out loud?????
Jack
Margaret, your mom’s first days reminds me of my mom’s too. She rummaged through other residences draws the first night. They started her on Geodon to calm her and it helped a lot. Everything was so new to her. It does take time for adjustment. It sounds like your family is doing all that is necessary to make this an easy and comfortable transition for your mom. My mom had more visits from my brother and his family there at her new home than before living at home. I think it will give you some peace of mind to know that she is being looked after, eating well, and there is someone there to help her with things.
Take care.
S
> thanks Sylvia,
> it does help me a little to hear it is not that unusual for new residents to behave ‘badly’..
>
> I am so scared now she will keep being so difficult in wanting to leave and being unreasonable that they would have no option but to consider putting her on what they call a protected ward.
> there was no mentioning of it yet but I am afraid.
>
> i know they would in such case still bring her to the cafetaria and piano and she could still go out with companion like us or her boyfriend to go on a hike, but it would feel completely differently and she would be among patients in a poorer state of mind, and well, there would have to be room there as well.
>
> she asked us to stop the rent of her house, we gave notice so the options are not many, she will have to adjust..
>
> today I hold my breath how she will react after he hike with her friend, when he takes her back there and when he will leave, always the hard moments.
>
> my brother is worried too, already slept bad the night before today’s.
>
> hope the medication does help …
>
>
> and yes, smiley, Belgium won the game, small country but mmm, we beat America two years ago in the World series too if I remember it well..
>
> not that it matters, smiley..
>
> M
People may be sick and tired of Orlando etc but I found this very interesting in terms of maybe finding out how these things are done. To say it is a ‘fake’ of course is very hard for people to accept and also does not explain much of anything If anyone is interested I would suggest (if you do not want to watch it all) go to the 8:00 minute mark and watch for about 2:30 minutes
And yes it DOES involve one of the owners of the club as I suggested it would and as always in these ‘events’ there is a DRILL involved. The event itself is really a DRILL ‘gone live’. So it’s a matter of going from make believe to making us believe it. And I did notice in the pictures of people being carried along the street they seemed to be carried TOWARDS the club which is odd indeed but maybe not if they were actually coming from this other building and being carried towards the club where the ‘publicity’ was. This to me is spooky and fascinating in a dark way. But I prefer it to the endless repeating nonsense on CNN etc etc
Patrick: Why are you so obscessed with all the so called “fakery” going on in the world???? There is something Primally deeper to all this, and it is worth just pausing for a few minutes and thinking about it. Afterall it is a Primal blog.
I for one am begining to see that the biggest hoax is you. AND, seemingly, you are convincing no-one, but I did listen to the first few minutes of the video. The guy did say he was not denying something happened … interesting!!!
What all this does is gives credability to “climate change” deniers.
Jack
Concerning the video, what’s left out is all the supporting evidence that has been shown and of the sincere reactions of the survivors. When one adopts the attitude that they aren’t going to believe and doubt how can they see the trueness of what’s happening. It’s like a parent with arms crossed who doesn’t believe you before you can tell your story of what happened.
And I would be careful of what seems like fun and games to see things as a hoax. At one point that can become a habit and all you will see are ‘hoaxes’, nothing will be real on the media. When there is a natural disaster, tornado, flood, fire, etc. the ‘hoaxsters’ won’t believe that either. See no evil, hear no evil. A great protection from all the bad in the world–like it never happened. A very nice cocoon they’ve built.
Sylvia – ‘sincere’ well that is sort of the point, maybe yes and maybe no but if ‘no’ to put on a show like that is not cool…………….
> Patrick,
> I find it hard to believe you can’t think of a number of perfectly normal reasons why they would carry some of the victims temporarily back inside for more shelter after the shooter got neutralized.
> after all it is impossible to get more than fifty ambulances there on a very short term, so it seems only natural they would take part of the victims back inside, if only to keep them from being filmed by sensation greedy media or disaster tourists..
>
> do possibilities like that really not cross your mind?
> M
Margaret – I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say. Never mind it’s not really important but there is nothing being said about taking people inside or anything like that. Any number of possibilities cross my mind………………….but so far I see all the evidence of a big fat hoax. Now if people want to ‘anal-ise’ that and draw similarities to childhood type situation go right ahead I suppose, though I don’t see really what that has got to do with it. As I said already I can equally draw similarities in people who ‘believe’ in this as real……………….so what? Basically means nothing…………….and to me shows the limitations of always trying to deal with things in that way…………
The issue here is not whether it is true or false, BUT your obsession needing to promote it as false.
My take here is that you have an agenda, that sadly, I feel you are not able to recognize. I suspect because you see EVERYTHING from your head (intellect) and little or nothing from any feeling.
Your agenda I feel is that eventually you hope to show that Primal Therapy is the ultimate hoax.
Fat chance.
Jack
You are such a tool! So I might say your AGENDA in your ‘fake’ caps lock style of ‘abolishing money’ is some………………….oh forget it you are such a tool (prick). And yet again it goes to your freaking ‘belief system’ is under attack you FEEL. How’s that for rubbish……………………..you are rubbish man. You told me if you saw me on the street you would cross to the other side and keep on walking. So keep on walking tool!. You do not mean me well so LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE. How’s that for caps locking you tool. Did I forget to mention you were a TOOL. Such a dick and get back to what you know what to do…………………
Correction: that should have said ‘suck a dick’……………
So!!!!!!! What’s your FEELING?????
We all know what you “think” of me, in-spire of your 1001 times you’ve mentioned it.
Now’s the time to tell us how you feel about me not leaving you alone. You’re too much fun to leave alone/ 🙂 🙂 .:O .
Jack
> hardly dared to do so but not doing so was equally hard, so I ended up giving my mom a call just now, after she would certainly have done her hike with the boyfriend.
>
> she had just received her dinnner, and at first did not even remember going on a hike, but then sort of remembered.
>
> it was good to hear she seems to be accepting again a tiny bit more this is her new home and she must make the best of it.
>
> i could talk with her in a quiet and reasonable way, she brought up the subject of her old house, but agreed she preferred to stop the rent as otherwise she would have to keep paying for two places. when she asked whether she could go there with us to sort out some stuff, I said yes, but better not right away as it might be too emotional at this point. she could see my point fairly easily, and I told her at a later point we would definitely give her the possibility to say which things she wanted to keep.
>
> she sounded a bit more resigned, and also acknowledged it was not very easy, but overall sounded quite real, and she also promised to try out joining the gym there, I could make her laugh about that.
>
> she said she would rather eat lunch together with the other residents, which sounds like a very positive sign, so I promised her I’d tell the staff so tomorrow morning when I visit her.
>
> called my brother and he told me he had called her earlier on today and then she wanted to leave..
> did my best to tell him she sounded more or less ok now, and seems to be making steps in the right direction, and told him as well many people seem to have to go through similar problems upon arrival.
>
> told him I had felt afraid they would have to put her in a protected ward if she would keep making a lot of trouble, but that that seemed to be becoming less likely, after all she had not yet run away once so far.
>
> he said he had still not stopped the rent of the house, as he feared we would have to take her back home with more care there, but I said for me it seems like the very last option to consider as it would bring us
> back to our starting point more or less, while we have made good progress already, and he agreed on that..
>
> I feel concerned about him, asked him if he was down, but he said he sounded a bit like that because he had been napping probably.
>
> so well, I feel a bit reassured now seeing my mom seems to be adjusting bit by bit, while she will certainly have more moments of distress to come.
>
> glad I can go there tomorrow morning with my half sister.
>
> it will be my sister’s birthday then, and mine the day after..
>
> my brother brought some sheet music yesterday to mom’s room, a good thing as that is the kind of stuff which makes her feel somewhat at home.
>
> managed to do some studying nevertheless, in between things, have to do short bits but it also does change my mind of worrying.
>
> somehow it also feels good to still be able to connect with mom today, she did appreciate my call and I could tell her it was my pleasure..
>
> the medication seems to be helping her to take the edge off the confusion and distress and to see things more clearly .
>
> wish I had someone here to hold me from time to time..
> M
Margaret: Reading all these posts of yours about your mother put me into what I wouild feel like, if I were in her position … being closer to her age. If anything was to happen to my Jimbo and then someone was to try and put me in a retirement home; the feeling that I know I would get is:- “I’m here to die”
Not a good feeling for me. The other aspect would be if I was more confused than I already am … would compound matters for me greatly. To be told that I am confused would really piss me off … I suspect none of us like that.
I’d liked to think that my death would be swift and painless in my own environment. I am saying all this because in a strange way I can identify with her clearly. I am not suggesting that you don’t … but merely saying this in the context, I feel it.
Your last line “wish I had someone here to hold me from time to time..”, makes a great deal of sence.
Jack
You deserve being held, Margaret.
Margaret,
It is just a few days that your mother has been there. Hopefully she is making the adjustment.
Also, the people there sound competent to deal with these things, together with the support from you and your brother, she should settle in.
Phil
> Jack,
> I understand you talk about your feelings, but we did not ‘put’ her there. she decided and we encouraged her, specially the second time after she had refused a first opportunity to what we had not opposed at all.
> she had regretted her refusal right after doing so and made us call back but the first room had already been given away.
>
> for the second one we did go there with her and had indeed told her we thought it would be a good idea to take it, she did like it when she saw it and the social worker specifically asked her personally whether she wanted to come and live there, and we just waited silently to let her answer and she said ‘yes, I think I could get used to living here, it looks very nice’.
>
> it was not a spur of the moment decision either, it has been 8 months of talking about it and wanting to do what would be best for her in order for her to be happy and safe.
>
> I did freshen up her memory about that today as she also tends to speak in terms of being ‘put’ there, and then she did remember it more or less.
> my mom is not the kind of person anyway you could force to do something against her will to begin with.
>
> it is mostly her confusion now and fear of not being accepted or not fitting in that make her insecure.
> and well, if someone is confused, or forgets, sometimes there is no way around telling the person they forgot and to help them to remember.
> it does help my mom when we do and we always do it in a very gentle way.
>
> all situations vary, for instance if I could still see well it might have been easier for me to drive by her house daily to help her to stay there longer, but under the circumstances this is really a good option as i feel sure she will adjust and start liking the company and activities.
>
> she was getting very lonely and lost at home, and brought the subject up a number of times herself that she might want to move there.
>
> it is a big adjustment of course, and a loss in many ways, but there are a lot of good things in return, on the very first day she already made a nice friend, so as Phil says this is only three days, she will adjust and have some nice years ahead which we also will enjoy with her.
> if she would have accepted more help at home she could have stayed there for many more years, we told her repeatedly, but she was too stubborn to accept more help, and the situation really started deteriorating fast there.
>
> so it is a good thing, we keep count of her and her feelings, always did, but it is also true we have a better take on reality.
> in her mind she could still drive a car, do her shopping an cooking and household and had plenty of friends in the village, none of those things were true for at least 5 years or more.
>
> and still we managed to leave the decision to her.
> it was nice today she did express her appreciation to me for helping her, she knows we love her and want her to be happy.
> M
Margaret: At no point did I doubt that you were acting for her best interest. I hoped I had made that clear. Maybe not.
It was just that in reading you posts on the situation … put me in mind of how I might feel in a similar situation.
I thought it was worth expressing … but c’est la vie.
Jack
Too hot in my room to write, 94 degrees and my a/c is broke. Had a little altercation with the wife. I told her how I felt, and that is it. I don’t think she even thinks about me at all, of this I am all but certain. Thank god she doesnt have psychotic reactions the way she used to.. Any, a few minutes later while exercycling in the 94 degree heat outside, so the cat could get 10 minutes of outside time, I realized a good part of this incident was an giant old feeling of being abandoned by my brother and my cousin long ago. They would disappear for hours and not give a shit about including me. The end. Except for all the other abandonments chained to it. Whatever. Too hot to put details. Go watch tv in the living room. Eat by myself, one of my major act outs. Cried big time at PI yesterday, but too hot for details to write.
It just gets me………………like this Florida thing I have taken a great interest in and really have found out as much as I can and jack off man somehow relates it to I am trying to say primal therapy is a hoax. His ‘belief system’ is all that seems to matter always defend defend that as if it was under attack. Like a religious nut case as always.
There might of course be some similarities that might appear to him…………….there is the ‘fake crying’ and the ‘fake emotions’ I had not really thought of that but I suppose there is something there. Also the inane ‘repetition’ repeat repeat repeat and that might make it ‘true’ In any case it’s Sunday evening and jack off man has nothing to do except spark a fight which I suppose he has succeeded in now to some degree. Like a said go out in the streets or to Venice Beach public bathrooms and ‘talk’ to a cop like the old days. But if you want money to keep your perverted ass in the country ask the primal institute……………you seem to know who your ‘friends’ are……………as for me KEEP WALKING jack ass………………..
Quote:- “It just gets me………………like this Florida thing I have taken a great interest in and really have found out as much as I can”
Suggestion:- How about just stating just HOW it all gets to you. You seeming never get beneath what you say. It’s all just off the top of your head … and fuck anything underneath. Sort of Trump-ish!!!!
That is precisely why you failed this therapy IMO. You, even now,seemingly know little of what it’s about.
Meantime; for me I sort of don’t mind the heat, but Jimbo hates it. Maybe it’s because I came for a cold dreary weather country and couldn’t wait to get to better climes … first, in the south of England. then later in Ibiza where the weather was glorious, and I soaked up the sun greedily.
Getting here the weather was also great for me, but the city is beginning to not be so attractive anymore. Thinking of maybe returning to Europe, but Jimbo born in a tropical country seems to want colder climes Brrrrrrr. BUT I suppose, since he put up with me and California for 35 years I will have to go with him and make a compromise between Sweden his first choice, and Spain, mine.
On other thing that happened to me some three weeks ago that I thought not to bother folks here with was I stepped off a curb and it was steeper than I thought and I missed my step and fell and cracked a rib. Knowing that there was little the medics could do about it, I suffered lack of sleep for the first two nights, but thing have improved since and now the pain is almost entirely gone.
All else, nothing special except I am very happy with my relationship and though not perfect (are they ever???) I feel good that I am less and less inclined to get upset with other peoples foibles. I put that down to my therapy. BUT then, according to some; I would, wouldn’t I???
Jack
You have told us ALL of this before including falling of the curb (you even got about 4 or 5 people ‘supporting’ you) are you losing your mind yes you are and as far as allowing other people foibles whey the f. can’t you let me have mine moron. Oh I forgot everything I say you are afraid it might challenge your religion so you have to ‘defend’ that according to your religion always defending is not good a good sign according to your religion There are lot of not good signs…………..
seroquel sounds familiar to me somehow.
Folk Uke Motherfucker Got Fucked Up.. (cause he got in the way) .i will put the full link here, since it is a new page. Made me sad to hear it, just the melody maybe, or maybe the words do. Z thought it was funny, which maybe it is. not sure. another non-meeting of the minds. she is out at cheesecake factory because kid had a free gift card. I was too hot to go with them. I figured out that i am actually working 7 days a week, at least not 8. makes me a little burnt out and nasty with her. just trying to pay her bills.
i am the motherfucker who got fucked up by Uncle Al. I should have let myself cry, now that Z is not here, but well, I am not such a hero as I would like to be. Stuff it back down till next time.
> Jack,
> it is no problem, what you said made me reflect on and summarize what my feelings are about having encouraged our mom to make the transition to the care home.
> and the overall feeling is it was a good thing as the only alternative for her was to get more and more isolated and scruffy and lost in her house, and not really happy for being bored and alone.
>
> she really enjoys the social interaction already and it should keep getting better.
> her wanting to join the group for dinner and to participate with the gym are reassuring signals.
>
> of course it is not a black and white thing of good or bad, but looking at it I realized better I feel we did the right thing in a good way.
>
> now some stuff remains like what do we do with her old furniture and all the little things she still has in the old place, and to which degree do we include her, as going back there too soon wil bring up more pain than gain, to which even she agreed.
>
> my brother seems to want to get rid of a lot as soon as possible, I tend to want to refrai him, maybe we can store some stuff for when she gets a bigger room next year..
>
> it is not an easy process for any of us, but it does bring moments of care and tenderness and closeness as well.
>
> it occurred to me reading the replies I might ask my brother to hold me, will see…
> thanks all for the feedback.
>
> Otto, it is an antipsychotic which in very small doses takes away a lot of the confusion which makes it useful at some times, but in my mom’s case under the condition of stopping it again after a while.
>
> feel a bit tense about going there this morning with my halfsister, want to tell them to let her have lunch in the big room, to let her join the gym and make her go there with Niske for reassurance, and to if possible bring both her and niske to the piano sometimes, as niske would like it and she could bring my mom back afterwards as her memory is just a fraction better than my mom’s.
>
> it is raining once more here…
> a good thing too come to think of it my mom went now to the home, not just before or while I would come to L.A.
>
> sigh, so many worries, wanting to be protective, not sure where my own stuff is in all of that, but that is secondary right now, tie enough to deal with that when it comes up.
> other stuff to do, it is 8 am and I did already read all the mail, fed the cats and cleaned the litter boxes, took a bath, had breakfast and vacuumed the place..
> would like to be able to sleep in someone’s arms come to think of it..
> M
> I feel very upset.
> I went with my halfsister and her husband to see my mom this morning, and she was in a very pad state, dizzy and could hardly speak, and she did not feel well.
> I had called her earlier in the morning around nine, and then she sounded more alert and told me she still had not recieved her food.
> she was eating bread when we arrived, but then it was already half past ten.
>
> there were a lot of stains on her clothes, she was still wearing the same as when she got there last thursday.
>
> the caretaker in charge this morning was unfriendly and impatient, told us she had refused to get out of bed in the orning, and when I told her she had told me she would like to join the others for lunch, she replied first she would have to see whether there was room for her, which sounds like bullshit as there is plenty of room in the new part where they eat together, and well, she is a resident there so of course there should be space for her.
>
> then she said they had tried it but she had left the table and the same for the gym, the nurse also said it was no use as she did not stay.
> so what, they should simply try it again and encourage her gently.
>
> when I asked her to take her to the piano with her friend, again the same excuses , when i asked her to put some clean socks on her at least from time to time, she said they put fresh cloths on once a week when they take them to the big bathrooom.
>
> I feel it is mainly this caretaker not having a heart for her job, I can’t believe it is common policy to leave the residents in dirty clothes for an entire week if they had an accident, it should not be like that.
>
> but the worst part of it is yet to come, my mom could barely stand on her feet, was dizzy and did not feel well, and could hardly speak.
>
> we sat her down in an easy chair, had to help her to get to it, where she immediately fell asleep, making strange moaning sounds.
>
> I called her doctor and explained the situation, told him maybe they had given too uch of the medication, or left it laying around so maybe she took two doses, and maybe she took them in the morning instead of the evening.
>
> he promised to come by later on today and check with the nurse.
>
> maybe someone gave her an extra tranquilizer, not uncommon in some care homes.
>
> we put her in bed, and I started feeling very dizzy myself, had to sit down twice as I was about to faint myself..
>
> I will go again tomorrow afternoon with my half sister, who felt very bad about the whole thing too.
>
> it is difficult as a nurse like this might react even worse if you address her, if this happens again or continues I will go straight to the director who is a nice guy.
>
> I feel bad, tend to feel guilty but know I should not be, as they are supposed to g
> take good care of her, so far the people we met were all ok, the one working this morning is an indifferent bitch seemingly..
>
> haaa, my brother was on my answering machine but not home when i called him, he will be so distressed..
>
> glad I have my halfsister living not as far away as my brother, I can take a taxi to her and then the bus together to mom, still a bit of a trip but much better than alone..
>
> it is hard to know someone like that works there and does not give a damn and maybe even someone just gave her more medication .
>
> will have to check with the doctor as he also tends to minimize problems or even forget to go alltogether.
>
> boy this is upsetting.
> M
> briefly:
> told my brother, he e-mailed social service from care home.
>
> tried to call mom in afternoon, did not answer so called home and asked for her section and asked the caretaker about mom.
> turned out she was fine now and even participating with some activity.
> this one was very nice, and i told her about what went on in the morning, and even almost started crying.
> she said she never had a problem with our mom
>
> then got mail with excuses from the social service there who told us they would follow it up
>
> then got a phone call from the director who said he wanted to get together anyway to discuss the situation and possible progress in adjusting of our mom with us.
> he sounded a bit concerned, but of course he mainly hears from the problems during the first days, and he was glad to hear I could tell him she was participating in an activity this afternoon, and that she had asked herself to eat with the other residents.
> but then I added the caretaker of that morning had refused to let her have lunch with the rest coming up with the crazy excuse there was no room, and then saying my mom had gotten up the time when she had tried it a few days earlier and had walked around, or out, who knows.
> so what , does it mean when she asks for it again she should not get the chance?
> the director was not pleased about the caretakers attitude when I told him the story about not wanting to change mom’s dirty cloths, and snapping at me when I told her I would at least change her socks myself.
>
> he said that was not the normal attitude of their home, and I said I believed him as all the other personnel was really fine but this one was the other way around.
>
> he said he was considering moving the piano up to my mom’s floor so she could have easy access to it, as they want their residents to be ok.
>
> so when we see him we will have to reassure him she is adjusting despite her occasional rebellious moods, and she never actually went out on the street, and we did visit her every day so far to support them during the adjusting process, which he does not know I think.
>
> he said they crertainly do not give extra medication, but all the more reason the caretaker should have at least checked on our mom when we told her she was not well at all, could not walk or speak properly right then.
> argh, good that we signalled but bad there is at least one really bad employee my mom might have to cope with a lot of mornings.
>
> we’ll see how things go, my mom really deserves a fair chance and enough time to adjust.
> and to be treated well in the meantime.
> M
> just gave mom a brief call, she sounded tired and slightly down but seemed to be willing to make the effort to keep adjusting.
> she did not know anymore she had joined the game that afternoon, ‘sjoelbakken’, throwing iron rounds to a flat wooden plate with numbered holes in it, for points.
>
> it is usually fun, and it is sad that even though she probably had a nice time she does not remember it afterwards, as she can’t pour joy or comfort from the memory and expectations for more fun that way.
>
> we can only consolate ourselves a bit with the idea at least she might have fun while participating on the moment itself.
>
> we can’t make it all right for her, she did like the news they might move the piano up to her floor specially for her.
> it is sad and a bit painful, I mostly worry about my brother, or equally so, and should worry about myself a bit too as I almost seemed to be about to faint twice there this morning, suddenly cold sweat and dizzy and nauseous to the point of having to sit down and wait for it to improve a couple of times..
> hope the director remains cooperative and gets some positive feedback or no more bad news the coming days..
>
> thank heave for having my family members for support in all of this, hard enough already, can’t imagine how hard it would be without support.
> M
Margaret, boy it does sound distressing what you’re having to go through. It is good that the director is listening to you and wants to make things right. Thank goodness for family for sure. Hope things even out for your mom and she can get into a comfortable routine. I would have wanted to yell at that rude caretaker–what an unfeeling poop-head.
Here is a (((hug))) for you. You are a good daughter. Take care.
S
> thanks Sylvia, your hug really touched me..
> M
Look outside tonight – there is a rare strawberry moon! Gretch p.s. No it’s not a conspiracy! 🙂
Gretchen: I looked outside and it was just a nice bright full moon. I saw nothing “Strawberry” about it and so am convinced it’s yet another conspiracy!!!!!!!!!! 😦 😦 .
Jack
These are the ‘cracklings’ of the know nothings – Gretchen included. There is nothing to be proud of in the inability to link or couple things. What I call ‘co-incidence’ thinking. Dr Kruse has said it is usually a sign of a badly functioning brain and usually a prelude to even worse thinking. But then again to people who believe Janov has said and done it all they have boxed themselves in pretty much from the beginning……………….
Correction: that should have been ‘cacklings’.
Quote:- “What I call ‘co-incidence’ thinking. Dr Kruse has said it is usually a sign of a badly functioning brain.”
If you think Dr. .Kruse the is the ‘be all and end all’, to know about brain, functioning that is your prerogative. Does he have a blog?? if so, I feel you might get a better response from that one than you do from this one. Janov created through Primal Theory, a whole other way of seeing human psychology …. that no other had ever done.
It is inceredulous to me that you hang in here knowing you are not popular and seeming beleive in none of it. Somthing “crackling” up therein the nether regions of your brain, I suspect. Maybe come to think of it, perhaps this is the only blog where you are allowed to blow off your ideas, conspiracies and the likes … that might explain a lot. BUT you do sound like a very bitter person to me.
Jack
Yes; The moon is ‘yuge’ tonite. Tremendous.
So glad to hear you dealt with the situation with that lousy employee quickly Margaret. Who knows how many others have or should have. You have either started or added to documented evidence of her/his ineptness and that is a good thing!
Bernadette – I did see your response to me back on the other page and thank you! If only deep, yogic breathing could make it all go away :).
Hoping to meet you this summer. You know where so many of us are and hope you are there too- but if not – what about a visit?
L
> feel bad. physically for a nasty cold coming up, and emotionally.
> thought the comment coming from ‘primal’ might be Gretchen addressing me and it was about the full moon.
> made me feel disappointed and aware of craving some of her support and attention.
> guess it is the old feeling of needing a strong caring mom, focusing on her, but knowing that helps little and I seem not to be able to go into the feeling as it is all too acute in the present situation.
> have to go there by public transport today with my half sister, and feel almost like staying home with the cold, but would feel worse if I did as the next time i can go is friday with my brother and the director might come there to see me this afternoon.
>
> and f.. it is my birthday today, don’t need a bunch of happy birthdays, just some nice words as you already give me are fine.
> did not know whether writing was a good or bad thing to do but now i feel crying is coming up to the surface so it was useful seemingly.
> M
> could start crying, and then deeper crying, small child’s and toddler’s, when the simplicity of the feeling struck me:
> ‘I need you!’
> more there to come..
> M
> this is so terribly frustrating.
> I called mom’s doctor and turns out he prescribed the medication to be given in the morning instead of in the evening, causing her to be dizzy and drugged when she needs to function instead of giving her a quiet night and then a relatively easy day.
> I called him twice, and all he said he was gonna look into it.
>
> I can go to the nursing staff in the home but of course they will wait for the doctor’s prescription to change before they do.
>
> argh!!
> the meds were started up to begin with again because of her roaming around there at night, so this makes no sense wahtsoever, now she needs to go and take a shower while the meds start to work, nd they expect her to participate in activities while being doped during the day.
>
> might have to change doctors altogether.
> M
Happy birthday Margaret!I hope you enjoy the day. You have a lot to deal with and deserve a break. That doctor in charge of your mother does seem kind of absent minded himself.
Phil
Margaret: I send you the “Best wishes” for your birthday … knowing you are feeling bad about things. You were born on Mid summers night For a moment … think about all the frolics of Shakspear’s Mid Summer Nights Dream. I’ll play Bottom with the asses head, and you can play Titania the fairy queen. Just for a little while.
Jack
Really hope your birthday improves Margaret! I am glad you wrote and wrote so honestly.
Please do take care of yourself. You have had so much to take care of with your Mom and it is difficult for everyone with the big changes…Long term – positive ones – but lots of hurdles enroute.
I am thinking of you today and sending you Happy Birthday wishes – that I so look forward to delivering to you in person this summer!!
ox L
> hi folks,
> thanks for the wishes, today can’t be called a relaxing day really, but it as useful in the end, or feels that way, will have to see the results first.
> my half sister and me went there all afternoon, reorganized all the shelves and clothes and let my mom take a nap in the meantime, then we contacted first the caretakers of the section but after talking with them finally found they were not the nurses as we thought they were, but they had listened attentively to us anyway and came back to tell us they had called the head nurse and we could go and see her downstairs.
>
> she was surprised though to see us, as she only works with appointments usually, so there was a bit of miscommunication, but she was very nice and when I asked her if she had five minutes for us as we were there she said sure of course and then finally we had what felt like a constructive conversation about the meds that should be given in the evening instead of morning.
>
> I told her how frustrating it was to call the doctor three times that same morning about it, a mistake he originally made to start with and how he only kept saying he would look into things, thus procrastinating a bad situation once more.
> I told her he is a nice man but that I do not trust his medical responsibility anymore, and she understood as she knows him as well.
> she said she would change the schedule for the meds and also contact him to tell him it was her opinion it should change.
> she sounded like it would really happen, smiley.
>
> she was also appalled about mom’s cloths still being the same as when she arrived and the nurse from the day before refusing to change them when it was not official bathing day.
> she said it was completely counter to the home’s policy of always making their residents look pretty and clean and well taken care of.
> she immediately asked who it was and when exactly she had been on duty.
>
> we talked about changing doctors at some point, and she mentioned the worry they have about our mom leaving out on the street some day.
> when I mentioned with all what had happened so far we were actually considering the option of taking our mom back to her former house with more care there, she said she did not think my mom was still a person who could live on her own.
> that shows they do not want to ‘get rid’ of her or something, but want to look for solutions .
>
> we took mom and her neighbor lady Niske to the cafeteria for ice cream and that was nice, mom keeps making little steps in adjusting, but keeps of course also bringing up her house ..
>
> told my brother that even if she adjusts up to the point of participating in all activities and having plenty of nice times there, most of the day, there will still always be moments when she is back on her room, as she does not remember those good times, that she will wonder ‘what am I doing here?’, this is not my house…
>
> still we must keep giving her time and encouraging her to participate as in her former house she was getting very lonely and things were deteriorating at a fast rate, and as she objects all the time to people coming there to assist her, it would raise serious problems very soon that might be much worse than her occasionally being cross with us for having been ‘put’ there..
>
> she really enjoyed being helped with fresh cloths and with washing herself, and enjoys company and socializing so well, will see, for the moment we still have all options available as my brother did not give notice about the rent yet just in case.
>
> it is ironical with all the effort we put in to her,daily all this week, she did still grumble at osme point ‘ok you just want to get rid of me..’
> luckily other moments she does appreciate our help so well, I guess we must be able to live with that bit of grumbling and her being cross from time to time, she is easily distracted so that is a good thing.
>
> feel much better coming back home today than I did yesterday, even after not having been able to do anything else today than spending my morning on the phone first and then from 12 till seven pm taking care of her and commuting..
> the talk with the head nurse seemed an important step forwards.
> haa, sigh, so yes, Phil, will try to relax tomorrow and urgently do some studying as in three weeks I do have an exam, evolutionary psychology ..
>
> feel we did a good job today, not investing energy in the levels that would only obey the logbook the doctor filled in with his prescriptions but going directly to the level that dares to take initiative to change a decision and then let the doctor know..
>
> she told me we could contact her at any time, and it felt very good she did reach out to me when I was leaving and stroked my shoulder a couple of times in a warm gesture of encouragement.
> M
Happy Birthday Margaret. The satisfaction of having done the best for your mother in her transition to her new home is kind of a birthday present.
I just heard on the ‘regular’ News MSNBC that there was a ‘massive lone shooter drill’ conducted in ORLANDO, FL about 3 months ago. People who understand and are knowledgeable about these things say always look for the DRILL, and then later the ‘drill goes live’ and lo and behold you have a big ‘event’. This is very typical of these ‘co-incidences’…………….have a drill and later the ‘real’ event mirrors the drill exactly. Gretchen might consider that a ‘conspiracy’ I dunno I think that is a better explanation that another ‘co-incidence’ I mean how many of these ‘co-incidences’ is it reasonable to always have to explain away. Each ‘event’ guess what there WAS a ‘drill’…………….over and over again.
And I know Gretchen seemed to be upset that I did not automatically believe the ‘grieving’ mother well check this out. Almost certainly this woman is an ‘actor’ I thought Gretchen might be able to tell ‘fake’ from ‘real’ crying…………………and Jack your repetitive comments are not needed here actually they never are…………..you can repeat and repeat like a broken record which is what you are to me a ‘broken record’……………..
Quote:- “…..repetitive comments are not needed here actually they never are…………..you can repeat and repeat like a broken record …..”
Is this not YOUR repeat for some 50 times???? Incidentally, are you the new keeper of the blog???
Repeating is about 99% of what takes place in the world … now and in the past … and, I suspect for the future.
Simple examples:- making a meal, going to work, doing shopping, AND one last one, that seemingly, you have not enjoyed … making love
Jack.
Creepy………………….
Don’t worry … that’s a feeling you very can easily over come.
The creep
Happy Birthday Margaret! I won’t make any comments about the bad care your mom has been getting, since it infuriates me. Maybe the full moon was controlling that one loony employee. When I was in a crowded parking lot this morning, waiting patiently for a car backing out of his space, I realized that there was someone laying on his horn and i turned around to see what was going on. It was a Mercedes driver and he was honking at me. He wanted me to move forward a bit so he could back out at the same time as the other car. Well let me tell you how I feel about Mercedes drivers, and also drivers who honk at me (i am not including BB and GB because they cant possibly be as rude as the majority of Mercedes-and also BMW drivers–and also most Millennial drivers–well the list is long). Anyway, you honk at me, and you won’t be moving forward or backward anytime soon. I stuck my head out the window and cursed this rich bastard, and gave him the evil eye, and made him wait. After i finally moved forward, I knew i had wanted to jump out of my car and go fuck with him, but i guess i am lucky i did not. Some people will run you over or shoot you when you do that. Anyway, so i best not give you any comments on your treatment at the Old Folks home. Some people, maybe you see this more in the movies, some people can be sweet and charm this type of person, “oh you must be so tired, this looks like a really challenging job, look like you got your hands full”. well i can do that some times, when i am at work and i am kinda supposed to be that way. anyway i got 2 airconditioners installed in our house today. I had to sleep on couch cushions on the floor of my wife’s office last night, since the a/c in my bedroom could not handle the 110 degree heat last night, so i finally go motivated today, of course the absolutely new a/c is making funny sounds already….ha!
> I wonder how we could help our mom to process the idea of saying goodbye to her house and most of the things she had there.
> she does not remember having said on several occasions she felt it might be a good time to move to the nursing home as she felt she was really getting older..
>
> would it help her to go back with her to the house?
> help her to pick out some stuff she can still put in the home or which things to sell or even to store?
>
> or would it just stir up things all over again and increase the trauma when the moment arrives of leaving there and going back to the home?
>
> i fear she will get stuck once more in the endless circle of questions why she had to leave and why she cannot stay there indefinitely..
> do you have any advice on this Gretchen?
>
> or anybody else?
>
> M
Margaret: Since you are asking; one suggest: let her come to her own decissions about everything. If she is not able to do even that, I feel she will at least tell you her children what’s she’s feeling and what is going on with herself as best she knows how.
I personally feel it is a mistake to have to constantantly think about what is taking in place in anyones mind, other than ones own. I also feel this this the genius of Primal therapy. We come to it, in our own good way and time for ourselves Just a suggestion.
Jack
From the perspective of half way around the world from you, I have the same fear as you Margaret, that going back to her house would stir up things all over again and increase the trauma when the moment arrives of leaving to go back to the home. It also depends on how determined and disciplined she is that it was the right decision in the first place to move to the home. It seems like your mother is no longer capable of making sound decisions all of the time for herself any more.
> spoke with my brother and we agree mom must get the opportunity to decide on her furniture and go to the house in order to do so at some point, but it is also clear it will probably become a very difficult day, and hard to bring hr back to the care home.
>
> he said this morning she sounded more or less ok, but when I called her just now to try to remind her of the gym at eleven, and encourage her a bit, she answered my first question about how she was doing with she is just sitting alone in her room with nothing to do.
> so I said aha, I know a solution for that problem and brought up the gym and reminded her of the promise she made to the lady next door to join her for the gym, she said she did not want to do it and did not want to do any of the activities.
> in the end I got a bit short with her, saying we do all we can to make things ok for her, after she decided to go there, and one moment she complains she has nothing to do and is alone, but then says no to whatever possibility there is to be with people and do things.
> i told her she has to make some effort from her side as well, as it started irritating me she kept answering in this extra plaintive tone ‘yeah’ as if just saying yes but behaving like a victim.
> i feel still the irritation but hopefully it is useful to shake her up a bit and not go along with the plaintive attitude all the time as she needs to start cooperating a bit.
>
> oh well, have to let it go.
> she said something about just having been outside but did not seem to have a clue what for although she did mention a bunch of other people, so I do not know whether it was something good or whether she did an escape attempt and was brought back, who knows.
>
> today no one will visit her, tomorrow her boyfriend and Friday me and my brother, and then we also have appointments with the staff to evaluate things.
>
> think I won’t call her until then and let things develop without me ha, if possible, if no one contacts me..
> i told her as well she did say we just want to get rid of her, while we never put so much time and effort into taking care of her as we did the last week since she moved to the home.
> at first she said she did not say such a thing, someone must have made that up, but I told her she did say it to me directly the day before.
>
> on some level it has seemingly no sense as she forgets the whole conversation immediately, but on the other hand possibly emotionally she does pick up she has been going far enough with that attitude..
> and also for myself I need to find ways to cope and do not want to go along with all her whims and manipulations.
>
> so well, that’s it for now..
> M
Margaret, I am sure it is Very hard to disentangle your ‘old’ feelings relating to your mum, and the current behaviours she presents as someone with dementia, such a lot to deal with.
I wondered whether it would be possible for you and family members to allow more time to pass before you introduce more decisions for your mum (with regard to the choosing of furniture)?
She and the medical team and staff need that, I would think…
In the future, photos of the personal items and furniture and maybe her (now past) home could be shown to her, when/if her input is needed..
Jo
> Jo,
> yes, the idea of working with photos occurred to me.
> but she is insisting a lot on wanting to go there, and it is only a two minutes walk from the home, so we try to postpone and even tell her it might not be a good moment right now, sometimes she agrees and sometimes she is not open to reason….
> M
Margaret,
It seems to me that taking your mother back to her old home is bound to make things more difficult and to create problems. Maybe it’s better not to do that in the interest of getting her settled in where she is now.
Phil
> well, the hard thing is she brings up wanting to go to her old house regularly and also has a hard time thinking all her stuff is disposed off without her having any say in it.
> it is not easy at all to know what would be best.
> we told her a million times on forehand when she had to let go of her car as she was not allowed to drive anymore, which caused big emotional scenes which I dealt with by talking with her endlessly and of course listening to her and encouraging her she would be able to cope, and also by gently bringing her to face the reality of it, and then letting her cry hard and deeply and then holding her and rocking her and whispering in her ear she would be able to cope, when she kept repeating she could not live without her car.
>
> we then decided to sell the car to a cousin before she got home from the hospital, telling her about it though daily and supporting her in her distress before the day came she went home and had to face the car was gone.
>
> up to this point she has a problem with it, and we are not sure whether we did it right.
> so now we all tend to feel we want to make her feel she is somehow invoved as well in deciding what happens, and needs to be faced with it.
>
> I feel a bit about it like it being crucial to see a deceased person in order to accept he or she is really dead and to grieve and say goodbye..
>
> today it also struck me how sad I feel about her not having wished me happy birthday despite having mentioned it several times yesterday when we were there.
>
> she did react when we said we would go down for icecream as it was our birthdays, my halfsister on monday and me on tuesdayl, and then she did say then it was her treat, and later on asked about our age and then went on about hers, but not once she wished me a happy birthday and although at that moment it seemed not immportant now it makes me very sad.
> it is part of the feeling ‘I need you, mommy I need you’
>
> was not gonna call her until we go there on friday after my call this morning when I had to face her negativity, but already I am starting to feel the neeed to call her, it is five pm now.
> what do I need from her?
> I need her to be happy I think.
> i want her to be adult, and to be there for me, don’t know, can’t find the proper words for what Iwant.
> i want her to be happy as that is the only way to make her incessant need stop and for me to get a break, I want my own pain and sadness and craving to stop..
>
> sad
>
> lonely too I guess..
> M
> I guess the old feeling is I want her to be there for me.
> I want her to be strong and healthy and happy and for her to take care of me and me not having to take care of her.
>
> can’t get there really, so will let it go for now.
> just did try to call her but the line was busy so that’s good.
> my half sister was gonna call her this afternoon and call me later on.
>
> maybe I don’t want her to feel as sad and lost as I do, my mom I mean, but it is mainly me, or both of us whom I want to be ok and happy…
> f.. sorry half smiley does not seem to lead anywhere right now..
> M
Hey Margaret, First of all Happy Birthday ! 🎂 I wish I had an easy answer for you but one, there are none and two, no one can know what’s best for you other than you. I can say it wasn’t that long ago that I was dealing with my own version of this. I do agree with Jack ( if I understood correctly) that it is important for everyone to feel they have some control in their own lives. I often think that part of the problem has something to do with our own inability to come to terms with the fact that our parents will die eventually. I say this because I often see the elderly treated as ” hot house flowers” that we must be very careful to preserve or sadly, both irrelevant and invisible . Your moms situation is tricky because if I understood correctly her condition falls somewhere in the middle . She’s not well enough to live alone and yet not at the point where she doesn’t retcognize people or can’t communicate at all. I’m thinking there will be a great deal of upset when she goes to sort through her things but I do believe if at all possible ( and sometimes it isn’t) she has a right to do that. If it were my mom I might point out that she had the option to stay at her home with a caregiver but did not want that at the time. My own mom chose to spend the end of her life at home with a caregiver. It began with a few days a week and was slowly increased till she eventually needed full time help 24 seven. For her that was the best option. My bigger concern at this point is for you and your brother. You are both doing a great deal and I can’t imagine you can keep up this pace. I might suggest you take turns visiting some of the time so that you each might have a break. I’m sure you are aware that there is a somewhat symbiotic relationship between the three of you that likely existed long before your mom was ill. That being said you both have been the model son and daughter. Just be sure to take care of yourself as well. We sometimes can forget that the dynamics that existed throughout our lives will continue to exist as our parents age and become needier. Gretchen
Gretchen: I know this is going to detract from Margaret’s troubles taking care of her mom, yet your post reminded me of my dad. Even though he is almost 80 years old he still frequently flies around the country (once or twice a month) for business and still has a ring of salt-and-pepper black hair adorning the baldness of his crown. I count myself as fortunate he can still hold so much together intellectually at his age even though many of his friends have died off. He still has many younger friends and a fair number of people depend on his intellectual skills, yet dad’s only temper tantrums show up in my presence even though he is a genteel academic to everyone else. I am the only person dad yells at, yet I have a lot of patience for it because I try to preserve him as a precious cultural institution (aka “hothouse flower” as you said).
I often regale dad with stories of the 96 year-old inventor of the Heimlich maneuver still performing life-saving CPR, the 91 year-old pole vaulter, and the 94 year-old skydiver. Dad always rolls his eyes and says, “Yeah, right, those guys are outliers, one in a MILLION!” whenever I remind him of these stories showing the years he potentially still has ahead of him. Ironically, dad’s always complaining to me about being a “dinosaur” and “marginalized” by society even though his social contacts are reasonably strong. He invokes Charlie Brown a lot by his being a “weed in the lawn of humanity”.
Am I doing the wrong thing by consistently showing him that his complaints are not backed by actual evidence (ie. that he is not marginalized and that he has a legit shot at making it into his 90’s)? I mean, I understand dad might be having a “feeling” when he throws a tantrum with me…but I only look at it with a semi-wry amusement anymore because I know it passes eventually and he is a genteel academic that everyone loves once more.
I just worry that dad wallowing in any form of self-pity at this point in his life would only be detrimental to his mind’s well-being even if it’s only a feeling.
I admit my problems with dad are not nearly as serious or concerning as Margaret’s with her mother for the time being, yet no one lives or functions highly forever, I guess….
As a summary, the purpose of my post was to simply to ask Gretchen what might be the best way to approach dad when he is at his emotional worst with the help of a rich backstory. Should I let dad plunge into a temperamental feeling where there may be no connection or resolution since dad is never going to be interested in Janov’s approach? Or simply keep his defenses sharp presenting contrasting evidence to the reasons he should feel sorry for himself whenever he is down in the dumps?
I have no problem at all with going right back to Margaret’s concerns and I didn’t want to steal attention away from her. Those questions were all I needed to ask.
> Larry,
> I think you are right in that mom is not able to make sound decisions anymore.
> and she is not determined and certainly not disciplined at all in her decision about the home, she might have been at some point but now seems more inclined to stick to opposition most of the time.
>
> it might be better to use photographs indeed, we could try it.
>
> and I fear we will have to live with her blaming us for her being there and feeling unhappy some of the time..
> it is heartbreaking but I don’t think we have another option.
>
> if we would take her back home, it would already be a problem to start up more household help as they are reluctant to try working again with my mom as she sent them away a number of times in the past so the service was canceled several times.
>
> all she kept was her cleaning lady once a week.
>
> also the brief visits of the nurse every morning remained a continuous struggel.
>
> but it is plainly impossible to have her alone back home without almost continuous looking after when she deteriorates more still, and soon she would be rebellious against all helpers, her problem is she regards them all as ‘strangers’, also in the care home.
>
> we will have to stick it out I fear and hope she adjusts over time.
>
> it is sad she is like this now as it drives people away from her, I feel less inclined to call her already, and fear her boyfriend does not really look out to his visit for today..
>
> have to let it go, which I cannot do if i call her too often, it is very sad but well, my life is not that happy all the time either..
>
> I need to remind myself of the times I called her at her house, and she was in tears, saying something was wrong in hher head, and other occasions when it was becoming clear things are going downhill.
>
> of course there are the many times she said she was very glad to be in her house, more and more times as she felt she might not be there much longer actually.
>
> we have to keep reminding ourselves she agreed and sometimes even insisted on getting a room in the nursing home.
>
> but yes, we did encourage it and therefor it is hard not to feel guilty about her not liking it.
>
> will just hear what they say tomorrow and what my brother says and not take all the responsibility on my shoulders.
>
> at some point when my halfsister told her to try the gym she answered she was not ready for that, so maybe it is a little signal she is still in a phase of protest and might come around more later on..
>
> maybe it is as simple as giving her and ourselves more time, I have read somewhere or heard here it usually takes two to three weeks for people to start adjusting..
>
> long sigh…
>
> Gretchen, no idea why you did not answer, of course you don’t have to.
> I think I do feel a bit hurt though, but also want to be very careful not to struggle or lord forbid manipulate.
> my feelings might be part of an old problem about trusting , you, mother figures, who knows, or mommy dear herself for sure..
> M
> Dear Gretchen,
> sorry for my former comment which will possibly appear after yours did.
> my comments get posted with quite a bit of delay depending on what time of the day or night, as Phil pastes them for me in here.
>
> so thanks very much for your long reply that makes a lot of sense and is sensitive and caring as well, it really touched me just getting it.
> only read it once and will certainly go over it a fair number of times again.
>
> you are absolutely right, the good thing is by interacting so much with each other, my brother and me are becoming more aware of the importance to set our boundaries and to take care of ourselves as well, and of the in-sociability of our mom’s needs sometimes.
>
> like today for me it feels very good to let her be, she must be struggling there possibly with the staff as it should be shower or bath time for her today, smiley…
>
> her boyfriend will visit her, and well, it is up to her and whoever else today to take care, I am not gonna do anything today unless called for.
>
> my brother and me are already taking turns as a few times I went there with my half sister and also with her now we start not always doing it together anymore, as for her it is easier, she just has to catch a bus by her door and get off it by the home, fifteen minutes later.
>
> and I think she likes doing it so that is fina, I will go with her from time to time but certainly not always.
>
> tomorrow me and my brother have appointments there with the director and headnurse for evaluation .
>
> he said we will also celebrate my birthday as that did not get much attention so far.
>
> he is such a nice man, and vulnerable as well.
>
> due to circumstances back then, as my mom had to divorce his dad while still being pregnant, he had to pass his first three years for a big deal in an institution so I think all of this triggers a lot for him.
>
> but he seems to have a fair deal of common sense about it as well, though of course it is very very hard to be faced with our mom saying she is not happy there over and over again.
>
> i feel very protective of him too, and feel like crying while writing these words.
>
> it is good he leaves a lot to me and my half sister these days as he has done so much already and lives more than an hour driving away and also takes care of the administration and other practical issues I can only partly help him with.
>
> but actually we do form a good team and give each other support on many different levels.
>
>
> we know we cannot provide happiness for her all the time, and have to let it go to some degree.
> she is in a good place now, practically speaking, and it is up to her to make something of it or not, but of course her condition is making it extremely difficult as lately she does not even remember there is a cafeteria when she is in her room.
>
> it is all pretty sad, but we cannot take the whole load on our shoulders.
>
> as you say, she did refuse more help when still at home, and even if she would promise she would accept it if she could return, we can’t take her word for it as she would very soon start making trouble again, while losing more of her capacities, so we are in a ifficult position of having to assess and accept it is not an option to take her back home with more care.
>
> I think it will help us to hear what the director and head nurse who are both two very nice and gentle people tell us tomorrow, their view and their ideas and options.
>
> tanks again Gretchen, I do feel scared and vulnerable, but also in a way very grounded and at peace with myself, more or less, smiley..
>
> to be continued, Margaret and cats
> p.s. this morning I already sent my brother a mail about the possibility of working with photographs to allow our mom to decide on her belongings.
>
> maybe we can do it in some kind of conbination, using this at first as another signal she will not return there to live there.
> it is so sad she forgets every nice moment she has at the home right afterwards..
> she will drop back easily into ‘what am I doing here in this little room all by myself with nothing but strangers around’ feeling.
> not much we can do about it apart from engaging ourselves into a lot of trouble and problems and losing out on our own life if wh would let her go back to her house.
>
> hard as it is, not my choice, more so for my brother even than for me as he gets the hardest part of the caring .
> so she will have to adjust and we will have to deal with her resentment, which will hopefully diminish if she learns some routines there.
> hopefully the piano goes up to her floor soon.
> M
> pps the thing is she did already tell us a fair number of times before she went to the home and specially the last couple of days before, which piece of furniture could go to whom, not realizing thise people did not necessarily want or have space to put it..
>
> so she already received a lot of control in the whole thing but the sad thing is she forgets..
>
> our mom has told us from very young during all her life on regular occasions she would not live long, to her defense she has been very ill a fair number of times, but the impact on us was a fear of losing her from a very early age on I guess.
>
> it might also be a bit like the boy crying wolf, after a number of times the effect wears off..
> the good thing is me and my brother are much more open the last years about the ways in which she is irritating so we are emotionally much stronger to stand our ground , I think, smiley..
> it is very good to have each other as feedbak and support and my halfsister as well, she appears when things get tough while otherwise our lifes take mostly separate courses.
> one good thing is there is a good sense of humour in our family, even our mom is still open to that and laughs easily.
> Guru, glad to hear you do not have to be a caretaker for your dad at this point, good to read some more about you and him,
> M
> Guru
> you are not stealing anything away from me, relax about that.
> maybe the only option is giving your dad your honest response in some way, about how you feel, that he has not that much to complain about or even that you would like to change the subject, whatever as long as you do not allow him to keep you hostage sort of to dump on you for too long..
> but well, I might be wrong, you are in the position to try out various approaches, smiley, keep us posted!
> M
Gretchen: I feel you understood me well. This whole matter of aging parents and even in my case ageing siblings; brings up several matters for me.
The first were the deaths if both may parents. My mother throughout her life always said that she did not want us her children to have to take care of her. We were lucky, we none of us had to. She died of a heart attack at 73 and knew she was going to go soon. I came home from Ibiza to see her as promised, whilst she still lived. I was not going to go to her funeral. On leaving her for the last time, I hugged and kissed her as the taxi drove up and hooted his horn and went downstairs and then to the taxi and looked back once more, and she’d gotten out of bed and came to the window. We both waved and that was our farwell to one another, we both knew it.
My father lived on for a further 17 years until ninety and equally went to see him. He gave me all his Lancashire poetry books that he loved, treasured and read. I hugged and kissed him as I was at the window on the train and he stood on the platform and the train pulled us apart; we then waved to one another, also knowing that it was final.
My brother and his death last year was a different matter. I phone my siblings on each of their birthdays and Christmas. He smoked heavily all his adult life, but somehow managed to live to 8o. His daughter was with him at his side as he died. It often occured to me to help him stop smoking, but realized it was his pain killer and that was his wish to keep it. I have no regrets about his passing, after crying the first two day after his death. He was the first of the four of us to die.
Who goes next we none of us know. My little sister who now suffers mild Parkinsons is perhaps the next one to go and she is in a retirement home that she likes, so she tells me. She did get a divorce from her husband, but has two daughters that she regularly visits in another town some 100 miles away.
My olderst sister that I am least close to lives with her husband and he is older than me and seemingly both growing old somewhat gracefully. Other than my own dementia, no other family member suffer from it. My memory is not what it used to be.
My Jimbo: that’s somewhat more complicatesd. I hope I’ve learned enough to let him do things his own way and those things that still reamin an irritant to me I am able to resolve alone out his sight and presence. My only worry is, that for his own good reasons if I am to go first he will do all in his power to keep me alive … mainly for his own reasons. That’s a discussion that for now he’s reluctant to have. I hope, sooner or later. we can have it.
As for me with the inevitable death; fine so far, but when the end is nigh I just hope to be left alone to do it my way and providing that I am not a nuisance to anyone one else, that is all I care about at the is stage. I can accept death and have no illusions that there is anything of an afterlife. I got a good deal, thanks to a decent mother and a very lovely granny. I was lucky. the only sad thing was I did not have the daddy I needed and wanted.
One final note: I got a very good deal out of my therapy and will ever be greatful to Arthur Janov and the Institute, especially my favorite therapist Vivian. To quote Art:- “Live and let live”; and even ‘let die ones own way’. The remaining sadness is the prolific neurois of mankind. Sader than sad.
Jack
WARNING. TOO MUCH ANGER TO FOLLOW. DONT READ IF YOU DONT LIKE MY ANGER AND THE C-WORD, AND THE F-WORD.. JOINT SESSION WITH BB, AND I REALLY NEED TO SHOUT THIS OUT, WHETHER IT IS AN OLD FEELING OR MY PRESENT REALITY, I AM PRETTY SURE BOTH. I EMAILED THIS TO BB JUST NOW: “Thanks for taking the time with us. I am sorry I don’t agree with you, for the most part. Whether that means I am PRIMALLY blind, I cannot accept your interpretation of our marriage at this time. We may love each other, but that doesn’t mean that much to me in the way of happiness and I feel after 40 years of misery, I need some happiness in my life.
If your vision of Z’s undying love for me, is for her to ask me to stop at Whole Foods in Sherman Oaks during rush hour for some frivolous crap when there is absolutely no parking there, instead of saying to herself, gee, I bet my poor husband is exhausted after being up 12 hours so that I can spend freely on eating out with PhdKid and my other AA mates every few days, and buy myself $400 worth of clothes so I can go to Hawaii while Hubby goes to work and comes home at lunch for 2 weeks during RUSH HOUR TRAFFIC to take care of FIGHTING BITING dogs THAT SHE WANTED, EVEN THOUGH HUBBY SAID NO.MORE PETS WAY BACK WHEN,
She only cares about herself, she only cares about everyone else and she doesn’t think a fucking thing about me at all.
I TOLD YOU HOW SHE MOVED MY COUCH FAR AWAY FROM THE TV AND COULD NOT FIGURE OUT THAT I WOULD NEED A PLACE TO SIT IN THE LIVING ROOM WITH HER, SINCE THAT IS WHAT SHE ALWAYS WANTS, SHE DOES NOT LIKE TO BE ALONE. WHEN PHDKID IS HERE, HE GETS TO SIT ON THE COMFY COUCH. WHEN HE IS NOT HERE, SHE SITS ON THE COMFY COUCH. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MAIN BREADWINNER GETTING WAITED ON, FOOT RUBBED, DINNER THAT DOES NOT TASTE LIKE SHIT cooked for him and PRESENTED TO HIM, AND ALSO GETTING TOP SPOT ON THE FUCKING COMFY COUCH???
You don’t have to be a mindreader (AS SHE CLAIMED IN THE SESSION THAT I DON’T TELL HER OF MY NEEDS) to know your husband is exhausted, and doesn’t really have any food because he wastes all his time at work and on that fucking cunt so there is no time to get groceries for himself and there is no room in the fridge because she has filled it up with so much food that it is rotting.
I don’t think we discussed how I think she doesn’t give a flying fuck about me. Sure, partially or at least 50percent old Grandma feeling. But also the absolute truth in the present.
In the car on the way home, barely 1 block away from the PI she goes,” I am going to call PHDKID and see if he wants to come over tonight.”
Ok I don’t say it to her, but that is an extra ½ hour of fighting traffic to get him. Thank god he could not come.
But the point is, she was THINKING ABOUT HIM! WAS SHE READING HIS MIND? WHAT??????
SHE IS A FUCKING ASSHOLE AND ARGUED ALL THE WAY HOME AFTER I SAID I HAD WANTED TO GO TO RALPHS FOR MYSELF, AND NOT WHOLE FOODS FOR HER AND THEN I GOT TOO DEPRESSED ONCE AGAIN BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT REALLY THINK A FUCKING THING ABOUT ME AT ALL, SHE ONLY THINKS ABOUT WHAT SHE WANTS OR NEEDS, SO I DIDN’T FEEL LIKE I DESERVED TO GET ANYTHING FOR MYSELF SO I DIDN’T STOP AND SO NOW SHE SAYS SHE WANTED TO GET HER CRAP AT RALPHS AND ARGUES ALL THE WAY HOME BECAUSE I DID NOT STOP.
MY LIFE WJLL BEGIN, WHEN I CAN FIND A WAY TO GET AWAY FROM THAT NEEDY FUCKING SELF-CENTERED CUNT BEFORE I DIE.
SHE WONDERS WHY I BLOW UP, WHICH I EVENTUALLY DID. NOTHING THAT I TELL HER OF LOGIC OR HOW I FEEL GETS PAST THE EARDRUMS, OR IT GETS DISTORTED IN HER BRAIN. SHE WONT BACK DOWN AND STOP, SHE JUST KEEPS GOING SAYING CRAZIER AND CRAZIER STUFF. FUCK HER.
SHE MAY THINK SHE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT ME, BUT HER ACTIONS SAY DIFFERENT. AND SHE EXPECTS ME TO GIVE MY MONEY FOR ANOTHER JOINT SESSION “WHEN SHE GETS BACK FROM HAWAII”. WHAT A FUCKING CUNT!
CAN OTTO BUY SOME FUCKING SHOES OR DOES THAT BITCH EXPECT ME TO WEAR THEM ANOTHER 6 FUCKING MONTHS, SO SHE CAN BUY MORE CLOTHES.”
HA! NOT HA!
It is none of my business but I think it is good that you can express your resentment and dissatisfaction at home life and be direct to your therapist about it. Hope your sessions are helpful in showing you how to make things better for you.
I like that you don’t mince words. Take care. (Buy some good stuff at Ralph’s for yourself.)
Otto,
I guess the trick would be to get her to see what you want and need and then have her do it. Probably not easy, form what I’m hearing.
Phil
Guru, My guess is that your dad knows very well how you will respond to his comments about being a weed and that he very much appreciates your ” usual” response. In other words maybe what you are telling him about his worth is exactly what he needs to hear at that moment. So no I would not change the way in which you respond as I’m pretty sure your instincts are accurate when it comes to your dad. I think he is very lucky to have your support. I would guess he knows that too. Gretch
For me this discussion is about empathy. I too went through all this very painful and conflicted process with my mom – the mental and physical deterioration, the nursing home, and finally her death. My dad was active and alert to his last day. After complaining of pain he was in the hospital for a few days, diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and sent home with pain killers as there was nothing to do. The night he came back from the hospital he died in his sleep. He was 88 as was my mom on her dying day.
By empathy I mean that at times it’s hard to put ourselves in somebody else’s shoes, especially when those shoes are hurting. The other day a woman friend of mine told me how funny but also upset she felt after a man tried to help her with directions when she was parking. “He wouldn’t have done it if you were the one to drive”, she said. As a man I never had to feel sexism, never that feeling a woman has when walking alone, feeling like easy prey. Or being marginalized because you’re old, or being devaluated because you’re black, or silently ridiculed because you’re fat.
I would guess these experiences add up over years to some sort of social trauma which is not exactly like the trauma we are more familiar with but still something which inhabits the psyche and does something to a person. Loosing one’s home is a tragedy, even if that is the right thing to do, a tragedy that in the beginning happens every minute again and again. And the same goes for getting old and feeling marginalized.
I remember one day coming to supervision. My supervisor’s clinic was off a very busy and fashionable avenue which I haven’t visited in a very long time. As I was walking down the avenue I was a bit intoxicated with all the sounds, colors, busting cafés, beautiful young women walking, smiling and talking. As I entered my supervisor’s office I couldn’t help mentioning that and added that none of the women were looking at me. My supervisor, the sensitive and smart man that he was, said to me: “The fighter who nobody calls into the ring anymore, although he’s a fighter still”.
In my book that is empathy.
Great post to read Daniel! I loved “Its hard to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes, especially when those shoes are hurting” – brilliant.
Funny thing – just yesterday walking along a street, twice I wanted to “help out” with people parking – just because I could see so well, and have definitely been there as I tentatively reverse. One driver was male and 1 female. Well, I definitely wasn’t going to
“aid” the man as knew it would so easily be seen as judgement, ridicule &/or emasculation. The woman too, I knew that by the time I hoped to establish that she was doing fine and actually had more space she could well freeze from embarrassment, overcompensate &/or not appreciate my input. So, I continued on – looking like I didn’t care at all, and they struggled to success themselves.
The new cars with virtual help are eliminating all these attempts on both the driver and observer parts aren’t they…
L
On a lighter note:
This is from the 1980’s. It wasn’t big in the US but is wonderful and relevant.
I’m feeling shocked, saddened and bemused today that my country has decided to leave the European Union. I guess I must live in a left wing bubble. I don’t actually know a single person who would have voted for Brexit. What saddens me is I feel my country has voted to reject unity, cooperation and togetherness. Emotionally, that’s what I feel is at the bottom of it for me. To my knowledge, Europe has had the longest period of peace since before the Roman conquest and the EU was/has been a big part of that. Surely that is something to feel proud of and to want to sustain. Instead, “Little Britain” mentality, what seems to me like a willful embracing of ignorance has won the day.. Now we can all wave our little Union Jacks while we sail off into the middle of the Atlantic. Whoopee…
What next I wonder. President Trump?
David,
I am surprised about the results; I thought stay would win in a close vote. What do you think is the main reason for this, Immigration issues? .I can’t see this as a good thing for Europe, Britain, or the world.
Phil
I heard on the news a summary analysis that the older, blue collar generation voted to leave, and the younger, university educated generation voted to stay. Also the vote to leave was a vote to control immigration and a vote for national pride. An analyst’s impression is that it was a vote driven more by emotion and less by being informed..
From last minute polls it was looking like Remain was going to edge it. Yes, I’m convinced immigration was the main issue. Geographically, the eastern and southern coastal areas of England voted to leave, in the main. In other words, the areas that would have the biggest influx of refugees. Scotland voted to stay. And yes, there was a clear dividing line between young and old, with the vast majority of young people voting Remain. They wouldn’t have wanted their freedom of movement throughout Europe curtailed, versus older people for whom that would be not such an issue. That would be my interpretation.
I agree Phil, I don’t see it as a good thing for any of us.
Correction: I just saw the voting map for England and apart from a few metropolitan areas, the vast majority of the country voted to leave… I’m still sure that immigration was the main issue though. “Control”, is the buzzword I kept hearing from the Leave camp. Control of our borders, control of our finances. Don’t want Brussels (or should that be mummy and daddy…?) telling us what to do.
Correction to my correction 🙂 Leave won the vote in the vast majority of areas in England.
Big mistake bringing that up for a vote. Now the whole country is acting out. Next thing could be UK breakup. Over here we’re all stuck with each other, for better or worse.
I agree!
> despite mum muttering and moaning while one on one with her in the room, she has a good time when being with others and doing stuff or being in the cafeteria or garden.
> we talked with the caretakers and exchanged a lot of information, also about inviting friendly usually works with our mom when ‘must’ should never be used, obvious but sometimes forgotten by some people.
>
> and yes, she did join the group meal right after, and I heard her having a good time chatting and laughing, and I heard she had a good time the day before joining some singing and dancing there with her boyfriend who happened to just visit at that time.
>
> we took her to the cafeteria with her neighbor lady and then to the garden, and when we returned to her floor, they were all in the dining room preparing bread to make toast each to their own liking, for their own meal, and our mom immediately joined in and we could leave without drama.
>
> it was funny when we were in the garden with Niske, her neighbor lady, and my mom muttered she could never get used to living in a place like this, speaking as if she did not have to as she would not dream of even coming into that position, and I smiled and said she was actually already in the middle of adjusting, and Niske laughed and said that was really so true, she really is.
>
> we do tell our mom the truth repeatedly in gentle ways, to refresh her memory she was not put there but chose to come there herself, and do so repeatedly as to help her gradually to learn to assimilate it, but at some point it tends to become a loop and then it is the moment to distract and change the subject to something pleasant, or doing stuff with her which takes her immediately out of her loop that would otherwise only become more negative instead of a way of processing and adjusting.
>
> also from the viewpoint of occasionally ‘needing help person due to my disability, it is a fine line between not patronizing or stereotyping people and offering help when useful and welcome.
>
> I always tell people you can never do anything wrong by asking a person if they need help.
> if not they will say no, if welcome they will be very relieved at last someone asks, as as a blind person it is sometimes very hard to detect who is there and who would be willing to help, and it gets very painful to keep stumbling about or searching in vain and being lost and no one bothering to offer help.
>
> so in case of doubt, please just ask if you can help, the reaction should always be a smile, whether it is yes or no, with a thank you , apart from the occasional frustrated moron who might snap anyway…
>
> we feel so relieved our mom is well looked after and getting into the routines there and socializing more, and having good times, too bad she does not remember them afterwards but she certainly does have them.
>
> we will put a white board on her room with some information for her about when she can expect visits etc. we got the activity program for next week, there is so much to do but of course it is also up to her to want to give things a try.
>
> we asked the staff to keep trying as she is still somewhat in a fase of rebellious defense occasionally, but certainly changing every day, and they promised not to give up but to keep inviting her.
>
> my brother is also more at ease now, and also reassured by everyone confirming she should not live alone anymore, even with some help it would soon become a very big problem.
>
> and there she starts having a social life that is actually quite good already.
> Niske, her neighbor lady, is really very good as they enjoy each others company and make each other laugh.
>
> ha, sigh with relief this time, sure there will still be plenty of hard moment but at least we know she is able to adjust gradually and connect.
> M
On the question of the British exit from the EU; that has personal implications for Jim and I. So I’m biased. Our initial plan needs to be now be re-thought.
Looking at it from an overall perspective, I see it as a backward step. We humans on the one and only planet that we’ve ever be able to inhabit, ought to learn to live together. The difference between us are minor. The planet belongs to all of us (all creatures). We are the only creature divvying it up into ‘my bit and your bit’.
Might there be a way to brings at least us humans together. My take has long been to eliminate that, that actually creates the “us and them”. The real sadness (for me) is that debilitating disease that Sigmund Freud coined, then the genius (yes GENIUS) of Janov defined … ‘opened the gate’.
Hence, I feel the BIGGEST myth is “Civilization” which I find is anything but ‘civil’
And yes … I am part of the problem!!!!
Jack
Jack,
To get our facts and terminology right, neurosis was neither coined by Freud nor defined by Janov. It was fist introduced to the medical scene by a Scottish doctor in the middle of the 18th century.
During the 19th century it became a diagnosis for all those conditions where there were symptoms but no signs, meaning there weren’t to be found any real changes in tissues of the body. They were held to be illnesses of the nervous system.
Since Freud’s discovery that one particular neurosis (Hysteria) was a disorder of the mind alone, it has been used to describe precisely those mental disorders that are not diseases of the nervous system.
Freud and Janov have each a THEORY as to what brings it about, what causes neurosis.
As a matter of fact, Janov took Freud’s first theory on the neuroses (neurosis as a result of trauma, the affects of which are blocked from being expressed) and extended and updated it. He sort of continued where Freud stopped developing this line of thinking turning to fantasy.
I’m exhausted. getting up in 6 hours to go to work. Z being “nice” for some reason. dont care. tired. the germans will just have to carry the poor members of the union by themselves.
> just an observation, not a criticism, and probably originated by my own feelings on the subject, Daniel.
> you mentioned all the nice ‘young’ women and feeling bad about them not even looking at you which made you feelsomewhat bad.
>
> my actual course of evolutionary psychology mentions among a thousand other things the male inclination to focus mainly on the females still having as much procreative capacity as possible, so the young with other words.
>
> not much fun for the single women beyond that stage of course…
>
> it is funny it was being part of that comment that’s all.
>
> not counting, being actively ignored, or even rejected, not liked, fear of even being ‘despised’, feeling disposable, all parts of my old stuff..
> so yeah, a bit of a sore spot was touched I guess.
> M
Yes, Margaret, I hear you. Now that I’ve long passed into that “Oh thank you ma’am, have a nice day, would you like to have some help with those packages?” instead of the “thank you miss, you have a good day” topped off with a wink of younger days. It is an adjustment when we still feel like young women in our minds to realize we are no longer the prize anymore in young men’s minds. Oh well, there are always the old men who remember what we were like and still see us as girls.
Have a good day (wink.)
S
M, in a way your point was mine as well. It was about the losses age brings with it.
Daniel and Margaret: both your comment brought up something I have been meaning to do for sometime as I stated in a comment I made the other day. This afternoon Jim and I were sitting on the patio in the shade. I said that I had written on the blog, there was conversation I had not had out with him, I started to say if and when my end was near, there are four things I would like from him.
It went something like this:- 1) To let me go in my own good way and time and not try to keep me alive and not put out lots of money. 2) If I am suffering to use the minimal dosage of pain killers. 3) If I was beginning to become a nuisance to just try and prevent it by keeping me away from others. Lastly 4)To not put himself out, such that it was becoming too hard for him to look after me
We were not able to get any real consensus, but at least I have now said it and repeated it to make sure he got clearly what I wished for. He counter claimed; it was not that easy and I agreed … but hoped he now knew what I was currently thinking. He also said that when that time happens, I might have changed my mind and I responded by saying that all he needs, is to ask me, if I were able to tell him. He did not offer anything should the position be in reversed
This is exactly were I find this blog useful.
Jack.
> hm, that was me, not Phil, smiley..
> M
> Sylvia,
> one time it was funny, when I was walking the street a couple of years ago, two young guys, probably not even twenty, walked behind me.
> It was summer and I think I wore a top and a skirt, and suddenly one of them speeded up to pass me and glanced at me while doing so, then let himself fall back to join his mates, and I heard him say with some sheepish disappointment ‘she is old!’, which of course made the others tease him.
> I found it somewhat flattering, that from behind at least I could still raise his interest, haha!!
> dancing the tango also helps as most men there are charming even while of course young women are top of the bill, the oldies that can dance also get on the floor quite a bit.
> it is a while since I went, but well, feel like giving myself a bit of a rest right now..
> should do so again soon though..
> boy my cats are racing around like crazy chasing each other for a piece of bark, they get that out of the plant pots as it covers the soil to keep it moist, and for some reason treat it like it is the yummiest fattest mouse ever which they both want.
> I find those pieces of bark everywhere, yesterday even in my bed, haha, they race with a lot of scratching of nails on the floor, big leaps over the couches and clattering of cat doors forth and back…
> and they make funny prrr and mmmoww sounds while doing so..
> cat games, love them..
Ouch, yeah, painful to know we are has-beens, and a reminder of what we as youths valued so much, a young pretty face.
I have 3 feral kittens 9 weeks old I’ve been taming the last couple of weeks and they are very rambunctious. Getting so attached to them and don’t know how I will give them away or to who.
My dog is so jealous of them. Saved them from a life of wild where if they were hurt no one could catch and help them. Guess I will just enjoy and protect them and figure it out day by day.
I used to give away kittens often, as farmers wanted them for mousers. But now, getting so close to these little guys it will be hard. They already have distinct personalities.
S
I went to the PI today to have another cry. While I was waiting outside, a young woman walked by to get into her parked car, and smiled briefly at me. I know that some voodoo doctor sent her there, to look at me at that exact moment. She was a good trigger for me to cry over losing my 5 years of happiness as a kid in Hollywood. Happiness including my 3rd grade girlfriend and my aunt and uncle and all the places in the house, and places in my aunt and uncle’s hotel and the streets and buildings on Western and Sunset Boulevards, my elementary school, the Boy’s club. Yes I have talked about this before. It is so big I can’t finish it. What a blow to leave that happiness, even if I was alone with tv and my comic books some of the time. Funny the crying started with me remembering my honeymoon with Z. We went up to San Francisco and stayed with her sister a few days. We were going to get jobs up there and get therapy up there. My favorite memory of her was of her rolling some joints on her sister’s dining room table. We were young, and maybe in love, but most of all, we were young and hopeful and together. Now, I don’t know who we are anymore. Second thing I cried about was my mom’s sister, who was supposed to watch over me and my brother when we moved away from Hollywood. I could see her sitting on the beach and all the sights of that beach came back to me. Then cry cry cry about losing Hollywood. No way possible to put words down on paper. Still not done with this feeling. Walking-by young woman helped stoke the flames of the feeling but I was pretty much there, but there are always those good big triggers that we love to have come our way. She was my mom, my 3rd grade girlfriend, every person I lost, who I was seeing as I cried. She was Hollywood itself. She was every unattainable woman that I have ever seen. Thanks voodoo doctor. Anyway here is my new favorite video on youtube. Very clever opening with the dysfunctional family, the mom and dad and brother and sister about to eat a meal, saying grace, then a little snappy song. DIE ANTWOORD – BABY’S ON FIRE (OFFICIAL).
My take on some current theories of evolutionary psychology: men dont chase young women because young women are healthy enough to procreate. My feeling is that mother nature has programmed something into the male brain to go after the young and fresh and flashy, that sends the testosterone a-soaring. Mother nature wants us to procreate, I really don’t think that is the thing that is on a man’s mind very much. I am saying that what kicks off the senses, like flowers to a bee, and red butts to a monkey, and on and on, is nature’s trick. As Margaret said, the young men saw her cute clothes, and got interested. I don’t think they had any intention of making babies. I do feel sorry that women feel compelled to turn themselves inside out by not eating or by wearing painful shoes, to attain a certain standard of beauty to attract men, and the assholes who propagate such behaviors–fashion-people. For most straight men, the lines of a woman’s hips is all it takes. Maybe. I cant speak for all straight men. ah, just had to say something that has been on my mind a while about the procreation thing.
One of my favorite comedians (i did not know he had died, damn) expounds on men and women and sex. Patrice O’Neal – The Value of Vagina [UNCENSORED]. probably not to everyone’s liking but i guess the women in the audience appear to be having fun.
We’ve had a lot of talk about old people, parents, and putting them in nursing homes to be taken care of etc, because of what Margaret is going through with her mother.
Some feelings today about my father about how I was already taking care of him somehow, and he wasn’t that old or needing it. It became my role to entertain him and keep him company
and I have a lot of feelings about that, as my needs from him were not met.
I didn’t want to be stuck with him in this role. I can’t say that we ever had a good adult relationship at least partly for this reason.
In my father’s case, his aorta ruptured at age 72 and he was dead, just like that. Probably a good way to go if you have to. There was not much debilitation or going to a nursing home etc. I don’t think I would have dealt with that well at all. I did go through a whole lot of grief and crying for many days when he passed away and I’m no doubt still not done with it.
Phil
Everly Brothers – Love Hurts one of my favorites.
> Sylvia,
> hope your dog won’t harm them if he/she is that jealous, at some point they will be big enough of course to stand up for themselves, although some dogs seem to turn out to real cat killers.
> I feel confident though you would not let such a thing happen..
>
> phil,
> I heard you.
> don’t know what to say, but it sounds like a lot of pain and unmet need to be dealt with.
> glad you did manage to make yourself a good family in the present.
> M
> mom is starting to sound more cheerful even while today she was supposed to go on a hike but said her boyfriend did not show up, despite her being ‘home’ all the time.
> it is pouring rain and she did not seem to mind.
> she starts asking more about us again, and about the cats, and even laughed out loud at some point during our conversation.
> that feels good.
> of course all worrying is not completely over, but the stress is certainly diminishing.
>
> there remains some feeling of nostalgic goodbye somehow, guess it is the house and everything that goes with it.
> going ‘home’ will soon be impossible and already now it is depressing to come there while the heating is off and things start being taken away..
> she does find it ok to select by photographs so that is good.
>
> will go there on tuesday and actually look forward to it, with my halfsister it is fairly easy as she is very patient and mom listens to her and lets her take care of things.
> but I am aware of even in the adjusting of mom, and in her having nice moments there, still a feeling of goodbye remains.
> I hope we can still have plenty of nice moments with her.
> M
Margaret, my little dog most likely would not hurt the kitties as he is gentle with my older cat. He just wants to be part of the action and play with them. They are very reactive, still half wild, quick to hiss and fight–so he might be clawed in eye. I’m keeping them apart for now. Isn’t there such a difference between puppies and kittens; pups are friendly and trusting while kittens are easily frightened and spooked. I guess scientifically kitties act more from the brainstem rather than the emotional part that brain that puppies act from. Just an observation.
I think you have made quite an accomplishment with your mom getting her accepting of her new home. My mom may have forgotten much of the present but she remembered things from long ago in her childhood and never lost her basic personality.
It’s good that you have your half-sister to help. To have someone a little more objective and not so close as you to your mom (as so it sounds) to help make decisions and be supportive. Families are ‘where it’s at’ as the saying goes. Take care. Have a nice evening.
S
Sorry of this is a little off-topic, but this excellent article I am linking below demonstrates that science and the world in general are coming around to seeing the theories behind Primal Therapy.
https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/06/20/the-body-keeps-the-score-van-der-kolk/?mc_cid=0506706136&mc_eid=ecaa886f07
LesB: I wonder if you are Leslie and Barry … whomever.!!! That science and in particular the medical profession are finally beginning to see that all this was delineated almost 50 years ago.
What it really adds up to, as I see it is, that the Medical and Scientific professions are behind the times (the curve). They needn’t be wasting their time if it were not for their BIG egos that ‘only they know best’ mentality.
Most really progressive thoughts (all down time) emanated from accidental discoveries. However most professionals having spend years doing their linear thinking are VERY RELUCTANT to consider anything that does not conform to their pre-conceived notions. What is somewhat discouraging is that the studying of psychology is still STUCK in the Freudian paradigm.
Primal Theory is so, so simple. That is not to say that the practice of Primal therapy is simple. It’s not, and requires that one has seen beyond their own “left brain thinking” and felt what it felt like being a vulnerable baby, or even greater, felt what it felt like inside the womb.
Unless and until this whole other way of being is realized, I fear that the human race is due for self extinction, and sooner than I feel is currently imagined. Sadder by far than sad.
Jack.
LesB is a whole entity unto himself – not Leslie & Barry just so you know.
I feel like he may be the Les from long ago who was with a lovely woman who adored mejool figs – I think it was:). ??
I too liked reading the article – a little wordy but some good things to think about.
L
Leslie: Thanks for the correction. I don’t think I knew LesB.
I thought the article was way too long winded. BUT then my thing is to make things simple. If they are not simple then there’s something amiss. That’s was what I felt was brilliant about Janov. The whole medical science thing means one has to practically have “a PhD in Rocket Science” to even get ones mind around it.
We human have a knack of making things complex cos it makes us look smart … which we ain’t.
I’ve long contended that ‘Learning’ is simple…. it’s ‘teaching’ that is complex and convoluted. If only we could let children … and others learn (come to it themselves) … instead of trying to tell them (teach them) we’d make life way more pleasant for both ourselves and one another. Primal Therapy “modus operandi”
But then that’s just MY thing…. Duh!!!
Jack
Jack,
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘progressive thoughts’ but in science most paradigm shifts were not accidental discoveries. In the natural sciences the major changes in our world views, those we associate with Copernicus, Newton, Lavoisier and Einstein (perhaps we can include Darwin as well), did not emanate from accidents but from keen minds observing and developing theories.
One can think of such changes also in the social sciences (Keynes in Economics for example). In the history of depth psychology the paradigm shift, the change in our world view, is Freud’s. Others after him have contributed and added, sometimes brilliantly, to the whole of our knowledge about the human mind and the determinants of human thought, feeling and behavior. But the shifts they offered, if any, were minor in comparison and didn’t change the way we view the world.
However, the study of psychology is not, as you claim, “stuck” on Freud nor has it ever been. On the contrary, academic psychology and psychiatry hate Freud and psychoanalysis. If you walked into any major university in the US you would need a magnifying glass or even a microscope to find any traces of Freud in the departments of psychology or medicine. But you will find quite a bit of Freud in the departments of anthropology, literature, philosophy, theater and cinema, or gender studies.
Daniel,
I finished reading Janov’s comments on Freud in his blog. As I read them I realized I had looked at them previously. I was searching for a good quote from Janov which would some up his views on psychoanalysis. I found this one which may not be the best:
“Psychoanalysts fear Pain also because they do know what to do with it, and do not see that there is any permanent way to relieve it. We might all agree that neurosis starts with repression; we might agree that repression is necessary because we could not bear to fully experience something at the time it occurred and thereafter. Yet psychoanalysts cannot see that reliving the trauma — or actually living it fully for the first time — would in itself resolve the neurosis. Feelings and neurosis cannot co-exist. Concepts and neurosis can.”
Early in his career Freud was on the right track but abandoned it. It seems he decided that the unconscious mind was full of dangerous impulses and instincts that shouldn’t be explored or unleashed. Freud’s thinking represented a major shift in world view but so much of it has been discredited. Janov’s therapy and theory should represent a major shift in thinking and practice even if it hasn’t caught on, and is not entirely original. The important point is he seems to he gotten it right, where so much of Freud is wrong.
Phil
Daniel: I’m inclined to agree with Phil here, BUT … I will elaborate it on his point
I’ll take just four: Medicine, Releitivity theory, Economics and Psychology.
Medical science:- is forever, seeking to fix the malady BUT totally unable to see, or seek cause. Seemingly, we find a fix for one malady only to discover that, that fix causes another one (side effects). It’s fuckin madness
Relativity theory:- Geesus Kristopholus!!! all those little bit of stuff called atoms, have so much energy in the them. The culmination being “The Bomb” … the other big bang. More than fuckin madness
Economics:- The STUDY of money flow. We invent this superficial fix AGAINST the other guy; only now, to find a fix for that stuff we invented. Economics is about as useful (or useless) as the study of the pedestrian flow in any given city. Even more madness
Psychology:- Until the advent of “Primal” we have only “Analysis” (experts telling us what’s wrong with us) or. worse still “Behaviorism” a la Pavlov/Skinner. Neither; fixing anything for us peons, other that the pockets of psychiatrists and psychologist. Even Primal is merely trying to fix as much of the damge as is desirable or amenable as was CREATED in our child rearing practices. All we need is to STOP NOW, the damage in the next generation … BUT we won’t. The maddest of them tham all
If we think about it; all the other creatures don’t run schools, universities, governments, give away degrees (that are now becoming useless; least-ways for making a living). You may argue the hierarchy notion, but that’s another human (neurotic) construct.
That poor guy, Stephen Hawking is a case in point. Time and space are human constructs. And I for one, totally disagree with his “Big Bang theory”. From whence did the matter causing the ‘Bang’ occur??? Seems we humans are running round in circles; about to disappear up our own ass (arse) holes. He, Stephen is SO into his head, he lost his body and I don’t think that is an unfortunate accident.
We are for ever “Pondering” if there might be another intelligent creature out there. Why the search … and what the fuck is it likely to do for us? Call it ‘curiosity’ if you you like. Not sure even that did anything to enhance the living of our lives. It could be further argued that had Janov not pondered Danny’s scream there would be not Primal therapy. Primal Theory/therapy is an outgrowth of our original neurosis. Had that not occurred (neurosis) there’d be a great life for most all of us (and I mean all creatures) to live a fully feeling lives without all this complicated civilization we’ve wrapped ourselves in. It’s a fucking mess. BUT, not able to admit it OR, even if we do, then we only tweak it a bit here and there, and hope for the moment we’ve fixed it … only to realize later we need another fix And on and on and on…………. ad infinitum
The very essence of madness.
Jack
Jack,
If I understand you correctly you would prefer the world before the agricultural revolution. You’re not alone. Some historians say as much.
Perhaps you’re right, but these are the cards we have been dealt, the only deck we can play with.
Daniel: a wrong assumption. I would like to live in the world that existed before we humans became NEUROTIC … which is a whole other period in time.
Put another way; I want to get back my REAL SELF … my real Nature . Janov IMO found that way … and I will pursue it until my demise.
Jack
LesB: I liked your article and the acknowledgment that “One of the paradoxical necessities of the recovery process is the need to revisit the trauma without becoming so overwhelmed by sensations as to be re-traumatized.” Also there’s the noting of attachment theory of “attunement between mother and infant that lays the foundation for the child’s sense of self later in life.” The mother should meet the impulses and needs of the baby. And I think that starts even earlier with a good gestation period, a stress-free healthy and wanted pregnancy.
I’m glad that these other therapies are progressing toward this healing. So many people need it.
S
> Sylvia,
> mm, kittens can be very cuddly too, I guess it depends of their early experiences with humans etc.
> and of course there are differences, dogs being more of a group species while a lot of felines are loners, but not all of them.
>
> I also read recently kittens each have their own nipple to suckle on , the top kitten, the strongest has the best one, forgot if that is more at the top of bottom of mommy cat, and they have their personal scent on it as a marker.
> puppies though are just struggling every time to get a good one, their ranking struggle already starting right there, so in a videotaped case where a tiny puppy was put to suckle together with a bunch of kittens who had a well fed cat mommy, you could see one kitten standing there looking at the puppy with indignation as it was suckling his or her personal nipple..
> poor little kitten, hope it got its favorite spot back soon!
> maybe cats and other felines are more easily spooked as they usually do not live in groups and therefor have to be more careful, don’t know.
> that aspect makes my protective instincts flare up all the more, love dogs too but cats are still somewhat favorite,, and well, kittens and puppies are all hard to resist, isn’t it?
> hope your doggy makes friends soon with the little newcomers and learns to play with them gently..
> hope keeping them apart won’t make him more jealous still, what is his name, or her name?
> M
Margaret, his name is Mack, a little guy. I feel like his mommy, and am glad I can guess what he is thinking and wants. He is getting on in years.
One of the kittens had an eye infection and I had to take him away from his mom earlier than the others to treat it at five weeks. I felt like I had to be his mom and be attuned to his little wants and fears. I think he felt safe with me. Of all the cats I’ve raised I never felt so in-tuned to their little needs. I can only attribute that empathy to therapy and being in touch with myself.
S
> I did check out the link to the article, Les, but ran into a window requesting to sign up and pay, if I did not it seemed impossible to read the piece.
> I did not, do not like to sign up for unknown sites let alone immediately give a contribution..
> maybe there was a way to read it but could not find it.
> M
> mom is definitely cheering up some of the time.
> I gave her another call after her dinner to ask her whether she had joined the board games that afternoon.
> she said she had not been asked, and when I replied she might have joined them and not know it anymore, she laughed and said that was possible, but that I should not ask her stupid questions..
> I laughed and said hey wait a minute, sometimes you do know!
> I told her I’d come tomorrow anyway and find out then, and she asked oh yeah, how will you do that?
> I said, well, I will ask someone who works there and find out for example.
> she laughed again and was really very lighthearted, and I told her she sounded very good.
> she said she was ok, and when I told her she could watch television she said yeah yeah I do, still cheerful, it was a pleasure to hear her like that.
> of course she is not like this all the time, sometimes feels bored and more down, but every day the moments she sounds fine are increasing.
> we really hope she starts participating more and more with the large number of activities offered there.
>
> we are now sure enough it was the right decision as to tell her landlord the rent will stop. it will have to go on for three months anyway, three months notice, so we have plenty of time to take care of all the stuff and keep apart and store what she wants to keep for when she has a larger room.
>
> we are cautiously optimistic now..
> M
Phil,
I think that talking about these matters in terms of right and wrong is not fruitful. This is not exact science and in a way all these thinkers are right. I mean, no theory can encompass the entire human experience and we can, and perhaps even need to, look at the human psyche from various angles.
Janov’s work helps us to “see” repressed pain like no other theory. Melanie Klein’s theories helps us to see aspects of fragmentation and integration of the personality better than any other. Lacan’s Real, Imaginary and Symbolic adds, from another angle, something to our understanding of human beings and of listening to them. Freud topographic model is the best way for us to conceptualize repression – how a repressed idea gathers other repressed ideas into mental clusters and how it returns this idea to consciousness. Freud also helps us to conceptualize mental intensities.
In other words, theories are forms of perception and operate like sense organs where what you can hear with your ears is different from what you can smell with your nose or see with your eyes. Each theory may help us “see” what we couldn’t see before we were introduced to it.
This is just a plea for a measure of plurality.
Most of us lean toward this or that theory, one that matches our personal experience and temperament, but as we learn other theories some of them enter our mind and become part of our perceptive unconscious. So, different people or different moments with the same person may conjure up in the mind different theories or ideas that might help us to better understand aspects of that particular person or that particular moment. (I’m limiting myself here to theories of depth psychology only because that is what we’re interested in).
One last word about Freud. His theories and writings are so vast, their implications so far-reaching, so innovative, so well written, so open to interpretation and reinterpretation and therefore so mind-expanding, that it has become an integral part of our intellectual tradition, and I think it will remain so for many years to come.
Daniel,
I agree with you in that these are theories and remain so until proven, which is difficult with psychology. Of course my comments and opinions reflect my experiences and that is one big reason why I would lean toward a particular theory.
If a better theory was formulated in accordance with what I and others experience in primal therapy, then I would lean toward that one. I have little personal experience with other therapies but I’m thinking that if they don’t get to the root of my traumas then they are limited and their corresponding theories faulty in that regard. I’m less interested in theoretical aspects of psychology that don’t have practical applications of some kind.
But if psychology is to become an actual science then some theories are right, or better describe reality than others. They all can’t be right, but I’ll agree that aspects of various theories, might hold some truth.
Phil
I very much agree with you Phil. If the therapy doesn’t unearth traumas and resolve them what good is it unless you just are interested in a coping function and just a therapy that will patch you up. Janov’s theory and therapy doesn’t need to be open to re-interpretation; it’s all out there well-defined. Feel the pain; get better, rather than live in your head and make yourself think you are better.
With his sixteen books written it looks like Janov has laid out a pretty good plan for learning to get well, love again, and reduce our susceptibility to disease by visiting the three areas of the brain where traumas were laid down, the adult brain, the child brain, and the baby brain of sensations. Some of us have most likely read there is concrete evidence now of changes in vital signs to more normal, more killer cells to fight disease and cancer, less anxiety that is reflected in brainwave patterns of primal patients. It seems simple to me–feel the trauma in bits and get well. I’m for it.
S
Daniel: I couldn’t disagree with you more strongly.
Quote:- “This is just a plea for a measure of plurality.”
Plead all you like. Janov states that all this pleading is just “head tripping” He found quite a whole other paradigm … never thought of before, in the history of mankind. However I feel, like another blogger on this site, you fail to catch on to the very essence of his (Janov’s) message.
Another quote:- “…….and therefore so mind-expanding, that it has become an integral part of our intellectual tradition,”
According to Janov and I am in TOTAL agreement with his notion here. That what you are saying; IS:- THE HUMAN PROBLEM.
We neurotics, are into the ‘left lobe’; little realizing, until his findings, there was a very neglected part of our brain causing a very debilitating DISEASE. He defined it. Freud merely coined it … implicating little or nothing for the human condition.
Jack
P. S. What purpose, for you does being on this blog serve? and I am being serious.
J
Jack, just a reminder that Janov spoke also about “feeling tripping” (abreaction). That means that, to use your language, both our lobes can play games with us. And speaking of lobes, what do you suggest we do with our left one?
I’m sure you too felt, like I did, upon reading Janov for the first time some kind of mind-expansion. It’s a joy to feel that. I guess that being intellectual is considered in primal circles a no-no, but Primal theory is an intellectual endeavor not a feeling one – and besides, all feelings carry with them some ideas (“my mommy left me”, etc.), don’t they?
I think that the intellect is part of our strengths in life. Like other mental capacities we have we may use it for defensive reasons, and such maneuvers should be dealt with, but that doesn’t mean we should throw the baby with the water.
Perhaps you feel that primal theory captures and explains the human mind in its entirety. I don’t. I hope that doesn’t make me the Antichrist.
And finally, I come to this blog because its the only place where I can discuss primal ideas which have been and are an important part of my life.
Daniel. If I may intrude on your conversation with Jack, maybe if you laid out a little more of your idea of treatment for your patients, your goal of accomplishment, what improvements they have had with your way then we might be very interested. We are interested in results too.
I understand abreaction to be the release of tensions without any connection to the feeling. Sort of like an exercise–just a release of energy.
I don’t agree that Primal therapy is an intellectual rather than feeling therapy. Janov isn’t against having ideas–it’s just that ideas can come from feelings and are a product, an insight of those feelings; i.e. we know what we feel then we know what we think. Because we have felt we know why we have acted out. The intellect puts it all together; but we must have relived the original experience of our hurts of when our intellect was barely developed yet. The adult or intellect part of the brain has to give in momentarily to the earlier developed child’s brain, go back and undo, by reliving the feelings of that time.
Sylvia, I never said or meant that Primal therapy is intellectual. Far from it. But Primal theory is very much so. It can’t be otherwise. Janov didn’t just feel his way into this theory but used his intellectual capacities to explain and theorize what he found.
I’m not trying to sell anything here, especially not the the way I work, and I never claimed that my way, or Freud’s way, is better than Primal. On the contrary, as I keep repeating Primal therapy has helped me personally and has helped, I’m sure, countless others. I also admire Janov for his writings, his insistence on personal truth, and his and Vivian’s decades of commitment to depth psychology even as it grew out of fashion. I particularly admire the fact that he came to his conclusions practically by himself, not working within established traditions but outside them.
But I do think Primal theory is not all, does not encompass the entire human experience, and is not entirely new but rather a contribution to pre-existing systems of thought.
Daniel:
Quote:- “But I do think Primal theory is not all, does not encompass the entire human experience, and is not entirely new but rather a contribution to pre-existing systems of thought.”
It is just this last statement of yours that I take considerable exception to. You are not alone in this THINKING. As I read you you have it all in your “left lobe”. Sadly, I see no way that you will ever THINK otherwise.
If you are feeling benefits to your life I would be interesting to all of us here to read your experiences. It is one thing to talk of experiences .. it is quite something else to relate them..
What experiences are OUTSIDE of feelings??????
Jack
This blog is not a therapy for me as it is for you and perhaps others. I’m sorry if that offends you somehow, that is certainly not my intention. I’m not sure why all this has to be personally about me and my lobes rather than what I have to say.
Daniel:- No!!! it does not offend me. If it did, I would say so … I’m not shy.
If you are taking all this personally that is YOUR feeling in my book. I can do nothing about that.
If this is not therapy for you, then it would be interesting to read “What IS therapy for you????”
Jack
Therapy for me is being in a closed room with a therapist in his/her role as a therapist.
Daniel: Fine; I wish you all the best.
Jack
Thank you for your response Daniel. I’m thinking that a lot of people don’t pursue this therapy because it is so messy. There are a lot of bad days, confused days, feelings that you don’t want to feel. But in the end I think it is worth it when anxiety lessens and joy in life happens, when communication between friends is better, and in general there comes a real sense of caring about people. Any therapy that can do that is worth it.
Nice to see that Jack has a new partner for debate.
S
Daniel: I will answer, respond to your comment in the order you wrote them.
Quote:- “And speaking of lobes, what do you suggest we do with our left one?”
Use it for what it was originally meant to be used for”- to organised feelings and create re-actions (expressions). Thinking is the outgrowth of Neurosis.
“reading Janov for the first time some kind of mind-expansion.”
Not for me. It was a simple, and shattering revelation. Long before I read “The Primal Scream” I had an experience in a London Clinic where I re-lived my early childhood. The revelation was that re-living was a whole other “ball game” like NOTHING I’d ever experienced before, in my life.
“I guess that being intellectual is considered in primal circles a no-no,”
No that’s not my feeling. There is no way any of us can stop thinking (intellectualizing if you like). I too am a ‘prisoner’ of my early pain and the resulting fuck-up that ensued.
“all feelings carry with them some ideas (“my mommy left me”, etc.), don’t they?”
Yes. BUT that’s not the issue. That’s merely the consequence.
“I think that the intellect is part of our strengths in life”
I strongly disagree. To me, is a huge part of our fuck-up … giving us Newton, Einstein Freud et al. The fuck-up is:- we don’t live by our feelings … like all other creatures … we live by trying to figure it all out … and by the looks of things failing miserably. Why all the injustice, wars and even our inability (for the most part) to have a satisfactory romantic relationship??? … then go on to fuck-up our offsprings … just as we were.
“Perhaps you feel that primal theory captures and explains the human mind in its entirety. I don’t.”
I know you don’t and that’s the reason for my ‘banter’ with you. I am certain that I will never convince you, but I do have fun taking you on. Hopefully you too get some pleasure out of our banter.
“I come to this blog because its the only place where I can discuss primal ideas which have been and are an important part of my life.”
That is a pity I feel, since my take; this blog is for each of us to express our feelings. The good ones, the bad ones, and the downright terrifying ones. And hence recover, some of our REAL health. Granted that writing about a feeling is not necessarily having the feeling. Meantime Daniel, I wish you no ill.
Jack
You say, “Thinking is the outgrowth of Neurosis.”
Wow. That’s quite a statement and I’m sure you don’t really mean it. Without thinking we’re doomed, each and every one of us, as human beings. Those who are unable to think actually suffer the most. Think of a little baby who at the beginning, when hungry, cries. When all goes well his mother is quick to adapt to his needs and feeds him and calms him down withing minutes. As time moves on, and after many such occurrences, the baby begins think – to have images of the food, its taste and its smell – and thus gains a modicum of independence, he develops. From now on, he might hear the spoon rattling in the bottle in the kitchen and he can think to himself something like, “mmm.. food is coming”.
That is a momentous achievement because it helps him to contain frustration. Without that he would have been totally at the mercy of circumstances, a petrifying state of existence. Borderline patients, for example, are famous for not being able to think and contain their frustration so they must act it out instead. Any one of us can reach that point when under stress.
Your second and third claims (we don’t live by our feelings; trying to figure it all out is harmful) do not sit well with your examples (war, injustice, failed intimacies). All those things you’ve mentioned occur because of feelings (rage, envy, greed, fear) rather than intellect. I’ve never heard somebody who intellectually fails at intimacy, but many times somebody who emotionally fails at it. I know you’re going to say that rage and envy and greed are not the real feelings you meant, but nevertheless, these are emotional intensities rather that intellectual ones.
Finally, your wish that we “should live by our feelings… like all creatures” is particularly alarming. It harks back to your original post and your metaphor of being pricked and saying “ouch” as an ideal of being. In that metaphor you more or less eradicate human mental life and culture (which is a very high aspect of mental life). Yes, all creatures can react somehow and express their pain. It’s called a reflex ark – some kind of stimuli enters the organism and the organism reacts and emits it. Even an amoeba can do that. It requires no mental life.
But, in your scheme of things there’s no room for feeling the prick but instead of saying “ouch” – the most primitive of all reactions – to write a poem, or build a cathedral, or develop an interest in bridges or the Blues or God or psychology or what have you; to become a Newton, an Einstein or a Freud or for that matter a Carlos Santana.
That is turning your back not only on humanity but on being human.
Daniel: I read this last comment of yours very carefully.
I take you you KNOW exactly what is going on in my head. You must have studied Telepathy.
Jack
Danielle, your idea that theories are forms of perception seems like the blind men trying to imagine an elephant based on the limitations of their individual perception, one blind man forming a theory of what an elephant is based on information of the leg, another forming a theory based on his information about the trunk, etc. An all encompassing theory that replaces the separate ones is a better model of an elephant.
Johannes Kepler’s theory of planetary motion explained the movement of the planets much better and more simply than did the previous ideas that the planets all revolved around a stationary central Earth. Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation was an improvement on Kepler’s theory, and Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity was an even more all encompassing improvement over Newton. Newton said ‘If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.’
I think most of us on this blog feel that Primal Theory encompasses better than anything else all the theories that came before it that try to model and understand the human psyche. I personally don’t see a need for many theories unless we are speaking of an evolution of theories, and I feel a better one might one day come along that reveals and explains human deep psychology in an all encompassing way more than Primal Theory does. But right now, Primal Theory has for me proven over and over to be an unwaveringly true, exceptionally revealing and grounding, priceless model explaining human emotional life and consciousness.
Primal therapy is, as you say, true. However, its theory is mostly grounded in psychoanalysis while not being nearly as full as psychoanalysis is when it comes to a general theory of motivation, thinking, feeling and behaviour. It also doesn’t have a robust developmental theory.
We can discuss this in more detail but I’m not sure it’s of any interest to people here.
I think that Primal could have and should have been integrated into psychoanalysis. Both sides would have benefited.
I’ve been stuck with my feelings. And when I’m stuck, I withdraw. It’s an old defense, one that I have adopted as a child. I’ve been stuck with not knowing what to say. Not knowing what I feel. What I need. Confused. Shocked, maybe. I’ve been going back to the scene when my father threw the cat off the balcony, and we all had to keep sitting with him at the dinner table and finish eating. Seeing the little ones’ faces – absolutely terrified. Having to keep it together. Insane and surreal scene, really! I’ve been going there in my mind ever so carefully, remembering and being scared, and every time when I revisited, I’ve been feeling a bit more. Admitting how insanely scared I was of my father (as a child I had to deny it to protect myself; how could I live with a father that is a constant threat to me?) Going back to the scene and remembering the exact feeling: terror, fear, insanity! Shaking, suppressed crying, telling daddy ‘I’m afraid when you are so angry’. And then mom hugging the little ones… I couldn’t go to her for comfort. I remember a bit more of what I thought as the 10-year old girl witnessing the scene. In order to rationalize the ‘unknown or instantly repressed need’ I thought, the little ones need her more, I’m too big to get comfort, mom expects me to be big and strong. Hence the subsequent withdrawal into my bedroom, crying into the pillow all by myself, trying to cope with the fear and lack of safety all by myself. There was nobody to go to.
Fast-forward to …. the present, and my acting out: too much eating, too much sleeping, avoiding life and being confused in my head. Not knowing what I need. Desperately trying to make sense of my life and trying to figure out what’s next. Feeling nobody is on my side. My hubby and Gretchen ganging up on me in the joint sessions. Gretchen not helping me, not seeing me, not hearing me. And yesterday my first connection to anger against my mother (yehaa! That’s a big one for me, because generally I have well-defended excuses for her and want to protect her). Why didn’t she come to me? Why didn’t she see that I was suffering? That I was afraid? How could she expect of a 10-year old to cope with this on her own? She didn’t ask me, How are you holding up? Do you need a hug, little girl? You look terrified, let me protect you! Nothing. Nada. Zip!
Sooo, I’m getting a bit annoyed with her and that’s a big risk, indeed. Because she was all I had. At least she was not totally insane and violent like my dad.
Well, fuck it. I’m on my own anyway! I may as well take the risk… I’m afraid! And angry.
–Bernadette
Bernadette, you had little sister and/or brother (s) ?
Otto, when I was 10, my little sister was 7, my brothers were 5 and 3. My older brother was 14. I don’t remember if he was present when the cat flew over the balcony. I also have three more sisters, all older, that is 7, 9 and 10 years older than me. They had already moved out of the house when this scene happened. We were 8 children all together — nice catholic family. 🙂
BTW, I read all your stuff above (since I left off). You are rocking and rolling! Keep going, getting it out, saying, screaming, sticking up for yourself, whatever you need to do!!
–Bernadette
2 thoughts, and i am not going to be clean about the writing of these thoughts. Clean in the sense that i am too tired and what i say probably is not coherent. cant find my unreadable scrawl notecard that i wrote a few lines down while i was driving. had to do with the evoluntionary psychology thread above. something about neanderthal dna surviving in homo sapiens, and that is the only reason there are good people out there. I am postulating that the extinct neanderthals were the good folks, and went extinct because of it, but that their dna or genes or whatever, is included in modern man’s,I am saying that bad people are the norm, and any good people out there are due to the Neanderthal dna. i have no basis for this theory and i am sure i am wrong. I just like to think about things. Thinking about stuff kept me alive. There was some commercial on the radio that brought up this thought, i wish i could find my note. I was saying back to the guy talking on the radio “NO, THAT’S NOT TRUE!”. anyway, the other thought, a young lady at work gives me food from pharmacy going-away parties sometimes. This ensures that i will fix her computers at the drop of a hat. She gave me a lot of sugar stuff today and also some other carb food, and none of it was good at all, but i sat at my desk and kept cramming it down my throat. ok the thought was that since i lost my mom at 10 months, i never had a chance to learn how to eat food right. the deanderthals who took care of me for a while after i lost her probably shoved a bottle in my mouth everytime i cried, whether i was hungry or not. I know i did the same thing to my babies when i was tired and they kept crying and crying. i dont think i was mean about it. just the first thing i tried when they cried. anyway. i have no idea what i am saying. i have now crammed a bagel and cream cheese down my gullet 10pm at night, and i was not hungry at all. i was just putting catfood in the fridge, and there was the cream cheese. such a comfort food.
I love toasted bagel and strawberry jam at midnight… almost time 🙂
Just to clarify: when I said above that my hubby and Gretchen are ganging up on me, it is only that I FEEL that they are. It’s not necessarily the truth/reality. In fact, in my rational mind I know they don’t. But it feels like that when I am in my confused feeling, not knowing how to explain myself. It FEELS like Gretchen is not hearing me, not helping me. In reality, I truly think she is trying her best to understand what I’m saying in my confusion. These days I often feel like I have to defend myself or my position, I assume that I am misunderstood, and when she has questions, I take it as a criticism. I really don’t know how this dynamic came about in my confused feeling brain… yet to be figured out. I assume that I must be recreating something from the past in order to work it out in the present. And thus the neurotic mind proceeds… 🙂
–Bernadette
Larry, my apologies for the late reply. When I disappeared from the blog it was not only by not writing, I didn’t read it either. Until today.
I agree, hope it very hard to give up. It is hope that keeps our struggle alive. And the struggle is that kept us alive in childhood. Creating an unreal “something that isn’t there” is what we needed to do in order to survive. I can see how you needed to hold on to the small possibility/hope that there was a bond between you and your parents. How very painful that this hope was shattered.
In my case, I put my father on a pedestal. I adored him. I thought he was just fabulous in so many ways. I also found compelling reasons and made up a story why he was so withdrawn, broody, not interested, angry. My little girl brain needed to explain it so that it made sense, in order to survive the monster in the house. And by creating a person that is ‘good’ there was more hope that one day he will love me. It is incredibly hard and painful to give up this illusion. Like you describe for yourself, a small crack has been opened for me now, I’m starting to see the truth. And all the hope that one day daddy will love me is falling into an ever widening abyss.
I also think that it is natural for a child to love his/her parents unconditionally. A child doesn’t have any other concept but to love, I think we are born that way. I think the child ‘knows’ what the highest and best idea of a loving parent should be like, automatically, by intuition. The child is capable of bonding, just like that; it is devastating that the ability is not reciprocated by the parents. That’s when the pain starts. These are just some thoughts I have; can’t prove any of it.
To your ‘maybes’ about not being excited about the retreat: I would say Yes to all of the above. The more courageous I think you are by going! …. I’m chickening out …
–Bernadette
I looked forward to meeting you at the retreat Bernadette, so I’m disappointed that you won’t be there. I completely understand though why you want to “chicken out” as you put it. If there is a Thanksgiving retreat, perhaps you will try it as it is shorter and perhaps easier to try to hold on and get through it.
Yes I agree that is is natural for us as children and even as adults to love our parents unconditionally. Sometimes after submerging in and feeling and accepting painful childhood reality, I transition to adult deep sorrow that thanks to therapy I’m healing but my parents are gone and I was cheated of the opportunity to love them.
My life feels like a roller coaster of emotions lately. There will never be children and grandchildren in my life. I have no family here where I live. When I retire from work, I will be truly adrift and alone as I tread water and try to set a new course for myself, all the while getting older and weaker as the sands of time run out.
At the end of June and into early July The Saskatoon Jazz Festival is on here for 10 days. It is a premiere summer event that I’d love to take in and makes me starkly feel how I have no life partner and no long time friend to go to it with, and I might have to go alone so instead I might stay home alone and not go at all…missing out on life.
An acquaintance from 6 years ago happened to be in the City and on Thursday looked me up through email, so on Friday and Saturday we went to the Festival together. It was soooo nice to not be alone and to have and enjoy each other’s company while taking in the performances. Then after we went our separate ways on Saturday night, I felt sooooooo alone. Soooo lost. Soooo empty. I resorted to going to a bookstore to be around people, but nothing filled the emptiness in me. I looked for a book to bury myself in and forget about my life for a while.
I was drawn to and bought ‘A Train In Winter…An Extraordinary Story of Women, Friendship and Survival in World War Two’. In their twenties the young women became involved in the French Resistance to German occupation during WWII. The train is the one that took them to the concentration camps after they were caught by the German occupiers and the French collaborators. It is such a painful, compelling, uncompromising and real account that unexpectedly on Sunday morning while reading it I began to sob and cry for it opened me to my truth that I always run from. My parents are gone. Dad died in 2004 and Mom last November. Noreen is gone. I’ve been robbed of love. I have therapy and am healing but so what. I am alone and was all of my childhood. How can I possibly make a life when life has hurt and robbed me of so much, and therapy gives me so little in comparison really. But God it’s a relief to face awful truth bit by bit!
So on Monday evening I met with three women I know who are in the singles group I am part of from church of people who have unexpectedly lost their life partner. Together we attended Jesse Cook’s guitar concert at the Festival. I organized and led this outing because I wanted to see him perform and I didn’t want to go alone. I very much enjoyed the three ladies’ company. The live outdoor performance under the enveloping gorgeous Saskatoon summer evening was magic. For an hour or more I felt young and strong again, transported to timelessness when I was starting therapy and life felt pregnant with possibility. In nice company Monday evening at the concert and not alone, the positive endorphins flooding through me felt good. So wonderful to enjoy life and forget about problems for a while.
But I am alone again, and this evening I’m crying the aloneness I was born into that as a child I could never face. An aloneness that crushed my life. An aloneness I must endure until I can change it, if I ever do. In the book, of the 230 French women in the Resistance sent together to the camps, 49 survived the 29 months until war end and freedom. But as much as they looked forward to freedom and normalcy, it never truly came. For the rest of their lives they were tortured by what they had seen and endured in the camps. The book ends with one of the women saying “Looking at me, one would think that I’m alive…I’m not alive. I died in Auschwitz, but no one knows it”. This evening I cried, because it is the same for us. We never escape our truth. This evening I faced and accepted mine a little more.
One of the things that caught my attention in the article LesB linked to was Van de Kolk saying how much spouses of trauma victims suffer. I thought that this is exactly what we have been talking about lately.
These day and age most of us will have to nurse a parent or an aging spouse. The mental, physical and financial cost can be staggering and usually the one who does the nursing is pretty much transparent, even to him/herself because it always looks like the one being nursed should be the focus of attention, he/she are the one who really suffers.
Some of us (me for example) even had a “sandwich” situation where you have aging parents on the top and young children on the bottom, extending you caregiving abilities to their maximum.
I think this will be a major problem in the 21st century in the western hemisphere.
Leslie, I’m not going where so many of you are going, but I should be in G’s group and looking forward to meeting you there 🙂 Deep breaths….. if nothing else, a reminder that I am alive. I am present. I exist.
–Bernadette
> Bernadette,
> do you remember what happened with the little cat?
> M
Margaret, the little red cat was fine. It came back into the house later. We had it for several more years after the incident. We always had cats when I grew up, one or the other. As we lived out in the country and were surrounded by nature, they were out and about, hunting mice and birds, and often stayed out at night, and sometimes disappeared. I remember my second youngest brother being particularly attached to the cats. They gave him a lot of comfort. I wasn’t particularly focused on them, although I liked having them around. I remember once saying to mom that I wish I was a cat, they have a nice life, sunbathing, eating, climbing trees 🙂
–Bernadette
So I’m thinking, no wonder I was confused! Nobody, let alone a 10-year old child, can handle a myriad of complex feelings all at once.
Dad’s violent anger.
My fear.
My little siblings’ fear.
My mother’s fear and helplessness.
My compassion for mom and the little ones.
Wanting to reach out but couldn’t.
Sadness.
Unfairness.
The absurdity.
Lack of safety.
Sense of imminent danger.
My helplessness.
My unmet need for comfort.
My instant denial.
No way to express any of it.
I’m sure there are more that I can’t think of right now.
It’s enough to want to jump out of a window!
Speaking of jumping out of a window, that’s what I was going to do when I was three. Maybe it was the same type of feeling overload and subsequent confusion that literally drove me crazy so that my only way out was to kill myself when I was three. Still TBD. I’m getting a headache just thinking about it! Headaches seem to be my constant companion these days.
–Bernadette
Otto: I saw that you were asking Bernadette about her siblings. You do realize that was not an innocuous question to asking her, don’t you?
(correction) *not an innocuous question to be asking her
Margaret and Gretchen: I did read your responses to my question concerning my dad from some time ago. I know it can be considered rude in many quarters to not receive a response when one may be expected (oh, man how I know!), but I have just been extremely, punishingly busy with field investigative work and away from the blog mostly.
Anyway, thanks for your responses. I will simply maintain the status quo when conversing with my dad. I give him plenty of hugs anyway.
Nah, what i said last night was probably not correct. It was probably the Germans and the half-Germans (grandma, mom, aunt, aunt, aujnt) who tended to push the baby bottle into my mouth when i was crying. I think the later temmporary brokenators probably just let me cry it off and/or starve. Actually, I don’t remember at all. But i certainly have an eating problem.
On a different note, what i said about neanderthals last night; it wasn’t a commercial that triggered my thoughts, well, kinda, it was a radio host who combines his activism with his passion for talk radio, and he asks anyone who listens, What are you going to do (about the genocide in Somalia, black civil rights, etc). and what i trumpeted, or merely said loudly to his stupid ass voice on the radio, “NOTHING!”, because what the fuck can you do? mankind is an atrocity, and the only cure will be when the sun dies out. give a bum a dollar so he and his dog can eat. or 5 dollars to a homeless woman and her child. I am too tired from working to support all the small and medium businesses and banks and credit card companies and governments who always want all my earnings. So dont try to make me feel bad, mr. actifvist. the assholes are going to keep on killing elephants, rhinoceras, and peoples, no matter what i do.
Jim Kunstler once said that 10,000 books have been written about what was inflicted upon marginalized ethic groups during World War II (countless movies, documentaries, etc. are an optional extra). I’m sure Kunstler arbitrarily pulled that number out of his ass, but I took his point very well.
The shitty-ness of mankind? To me? Do you know how many books have been written about the 60 million automobile fatalities since WWII? I have only been able to find three books about the subject matter which completely tore my own life asunder. One of them was written by a guy with a 220 IQ back in the 1930’s.
May he rest in peace.
i am getting down a rhythm with my exercycle, pumping away in the 90 degree heat in the early evening, listening to the ipod, while i make sure the sick black cat does not jump the fence and hide in the garage for an hour. tears come up too. i was listening to some heavy beat 60’s songs like Let me in, I thought you were my friend. Then 2 brandenburg concertos, very very lively. The fucking Germans nailed a few good things, in between their methodically-executed and maniacal lust for blood. I probably listened to these good concertos with my mom before we got separated, probably those old 78’s. Then this guy in the 7th or 8th grade turned me onto Switched on Bach, which really got me biking down to the library later on to check out other good classical stuff, 4 seasons, other Bach stuff. I am not sure i found out Mozart until many years later though. Not sure. maybe my wife turned me on to him. Anyway this guy in 7th or 8th grade was also the guy who turned me on to structured film-making. Like i said before, i was already making family home movies with our Bell and Howell, but now he got me interested in stories, scripts. and just one more thing, I have just been fascinated by Yolandi Visser since i saw her in the Chappie video. She made a good structured home movie when she was younger and the Die Antwoord videos are all pretty artistic and colorful.
I think she is very artistic. I wasn’t that artistic, but it was fun making films, and painting Wolfman, Frankenstein, and Dracula plastic models. And petting long-gone cats and dogs. Anyway, “Picnic” – Anri Du Toit (Yolandi Visser) short film – before Die Antwoord
usg, not sure what you are saying, innocoucuso.
I was kidding, Otto. I was recalling Bernadette saying my question as to whether she was related to Jack was not an innocuous one. She answered yours readily, though. Life is unfair, isn’t it? In big and small ways…
We have automobile accidents because we no longer have lions and wolves to cull us down. sorry for whatever tragedy in an automobile transpired to mess your life up. hearing the news on the radio daily of “injury accident” makes me cringe with horror. even if we are not assholes driving stupidly, accidents DO seem to happen. my theory, a roll of the dice. but maybe not.
Thank you, Otto, but I am mostly pissed about some of the stupid decisions that I made when I was younger which have been hard for me to reverse today.
I was just not well-informed about things a long time ago which would have helped me to avoid some of life’s pitfalls.
I am being purposely vague here because I really don’t need to talk about it that much.
It’s just time to get as tough as I can, you know?
The people I dislike in the world will die off, anyway. That’s the good news, at least, and I am glad to carry that knowledge in my heart.
I gave my last sentence some extra thought and I realize it is driven by a slightly salty touch of anger. No time to fool with that stuff for now, though. I just wanted the blog to know that I know, that is all.
I have been taking a break (and giving people a break!) also I have been travelling I am in the UK at the moment visiting my older brother who lives in Yorkshire. I arrived the day of the Brexit vote so the news is full of that all the time. I will spare people any thoughts I might have about it everybody has thought about it I don’t think mine are so much worth adding to the pile
But it seems I will meet one of my ‘heroes’ Dr Nickolas Kollerstrom to give him his full ‘title’ next Tuesday. I am looking forward to it it’s at a ‘meeting’ but depending on how I get on am hoping I might even meet him privatly maybe a day or two after and have a pint or something. I am now at the stage where I can email him and he will answer (most of the time). Anyway what I was thinking about this thing of meeting my ‘heroes’ I feel it is good for me to do it as much as I can or if it is possible. Kind of helps with my tendency to ‘idolize’ from a distance. Like meeting Dr Kruse I would say has been helpful in that way helps to put him in perspective or maybe even cut him down to size a bit
In the end they are all (only) human but the way I grew up with most of my ‘immediate’ or ‘close’ needs being ignored and not seen and then combined with the Catholic religion of loving from ‘afar’………….it’s like ‘real love’ was always associated with great distance the ‘distance’ was part of it to love and expect nothing in return etc etc it almost had to be ‘distant’. ‘Pure’ love was by definition not ‘real’ love anyway I am rambling a bit here but there is something about the little Catholic boy who ‘loves’ but expects (knows) he will get nothing in return. After a while does not ‘want’ anything in return that would sully it and make it ‘dirty’ does not want anything in return and in the end has nothing…………….reaches where he wanted to go anyway
But back to the present I think it is good for me to meet my ‘heroes’ break a few icons so to speak but also to know them for real. Real love is what I wanted whatever mental contortions I put myself through to (not) get it. And as usual I might say kind of brings up one of my ‘gripes’ about primal or maybe the kind of psycho-analythic world in general which encourages this kind of ‘distancing’ like what do any of us really much know about Dr Janov. Did any of us ever ‘hang out’ with him………no and it was always set up that way. Speaking for myself that has not been that helpful in that it encourages ‘fantasy thinking’ and I do feel that was understood by Janov (and not only him) and was in a way ‘encouraged’. And can lead to a life of more ‘fantasy’ the fantasy even of becoming ‘real’. I notice on Janov’s blog it seems a lot of the people who write there have never been to therapy or have ever met him………………all the more reason to keep the fantasy pure and forever unfullfilled.
Anyway to say I WILL it seems meet Kollerstrom and I suppose will ‘report’ on it in a while………….
Patrick, I remember having fantasies about wanting to hang out with the therapists when I first started therapy. But that’s not the role of the therapist; they are not supposed to be our friends, or take on the role of a ‘hero’, least of all the role of a surrogate parent. I used to put the therapists on a pedestal but now I see them as normal human beings with their own limitations, who have special knowledge and skills in helping us. And, in Gretchen’s case, is kind and generous and caring and gives of herself in order to help. But no matter how close a patient/therapist relationship becomes, there will always be a healthy distance. As a patient, I don’t need to know Gretchen’s (or Dr. Janov’s) personal life in order for the therapy to work.
I think the transference of our needs on the therapist is part of the process. I still do it. When I am angry or frustrated with Gretchen these days for ‘not understanding or hearing me’ it is because I transfer this feeling I had with my mom on to her. It’s the primal pain that does that. But I can differentiate between the real Gretchen, whom I love as a person and as a therapist, and the ‘transfer parent’ whom I’m frustrated with. As long as I transfer my pain, it is an indication that I still have stuff to work out from the past. If you have a need to hang out with Dr. Janov, it may be a transference as well. It might indicate your need for being close with your parents as a child.
Your need for ‘real love’ is a real need. But it is not the therapist’s role to give you that love. It’s the therapist’s role to help you heal your trauma so that you can have real love in your own world. Having been raised catholic myself, I kind of understand what you mean by ‘pure’ catholic love and the idea of ‘distant love’ – for me it all boils down to the fact that my parents didn’t hug or cuddle or comfort me; there was not much physical closeness. I am not sure whether the distance was because of their catholic faith, or maybe they were just incapable of loving. The fact is, it left me starved for affection and love and comfort. That is where my pain is. And yours. Real love is hugging and cuddling and making a child feel safe.
I’m glad you wrote about this. You can keep the fantasy alive, which is exactly only that – a fantasy and unobtainable, or you can deal with the pain of your ignored ‘immediate’ and ‘close’ needs. By feeling the pain of the past, you are opening the possibility to having real love in the present.
–Bernadette
Thanks Bernadette – I guess I am more ‘shooting from the hip’ here and sort of allow myself to leave alone a lot of concepts that might be ‘primally correct’ or not………..been there done that……….and it has mostlly not being that satisflying to me. These days as best as I can I just let things flow or what happens happens or how I feel is the way I feel no point for me in ‘judging’ it so much. Again been there done that.
It’s just for me and this is only for me that I speak I have met a few of my ‘heroes’ in recent years and it helps me, I like it though it can be a bit of a letdown also but that is part of coming to terms with what exactly they have to offer me and it sort of puts things in more perspective. Less idolizing and more trusting and judging for myself hopefully.
And this ‘distance’ thing………..it’s not that I want the therapist as a friend or whatever it’s just there can be and often is a ‘lack of reality’ about it and it does encourage ‘transference’ which actually I don’t think is healthy. I mean I do it also but for example meeting Kollerstrom and not only him often helps me deflate that. And given my background of lack of love and a lot of dreaming about how things are or might be in some ideal world is helped I feel at least to get things in a better perspective
Quote:- “And this ‘distance’ thing………..it’s not that I want the therapist as a friend or whatever it’s just there can be and often is a ‘lack of reality’ about it and it does encourage ‘transference’ which actually I don’t think is healthy. ”
I feel you are not being honest with yourself here. You obviously desired to have some familiarity with the therapist, yeah?? AND seemingly seek it from your heroes.
Where, when and at which collage did you learn about ‘transference’. You put yourself forward as some sort of expert … all the time. Let me suggest to you … AGAIN …. “The reality is what you feel”, as I see it. The rest is likely to be an illusion.
Jack
And I think all in the Church might give a hearty “Amen” to that. About the same as saying the Rosary speaking of which it’s time to go to bed here.
Good night.
Jack
Patrick: It’s interesting to know that you are looking forward to meeting one of your heroes. Hope it turns out to your liking. That aside I did find two sentences in your comment that seems to me; you need to bring up, at ever turn of events. I feel, though could well be wrong; you were eventually disappointed, you did not get what you expected when you came here at great effort and expense.. Quote:- “what do any of us really much know about Dr Janov. Did any of us ever ‘hang out’ with him…” I am not sure that NOT hanging out with someone, puts a great distance from them, in terms of their notions and idea. It depends on how WELL we read them.
The only thing I find relevant about Janov is what he discovered and what he has since written. All else is irrelevant, though I do know he’s not a recluse, and he hangs out with quite a few people. Who, why and for what reason, I know NOT, and is of no real concern of mine. I’m not one of them even though he’s one of my two heroes.
The first: William Shakespeare, and ‘fat chance’ I could ever hang out with him. I do have some ideas about his work and how it might have come about, having spent some time as an actor and knowing that actors do, given the remotest chance, like to embellish the playwrights writings. Particularly, since they get into a deep study of the character they are about to play. However, I have no real proof of that, and there are more scholars out there studying him than any other single person that lived … as far as I know
The other of course is Art Janov. I have met him four times and have few fantasies about the man. I admire his writings and certainly for me his discovery has greatly benefited me. The rest, I have written about in the past.
Jack
>
> yesterday me and my half sister Germaine went to my mom .
> she was grumpy at the start, muttering about her house and not being happy there and always being on her room etc.
> i tried refreshing her memory about it being her decision to move to the home and encouraging her to join more of the activities, but she was in an argumentative mood and as the three of us started getting irritated I proposed going out for a walk in the garden, and taking Niske along as she loved to sit outside under the trees.
>
> that was accepted and afterwards we could go to the cafeteria where some music was planned, something with a guitar..
>
> in the garden mom kept muttering away at first, but then the beauty of the spot did do its job by distracting her and she did get carried away from her foul mood by some specially beautiful trees, and then a little bird house where he let her feed the birds with leftover bread I had in my backpack.
> she loves doing that and my sister took some pictures of her.
>
> we also discovered a little pond full of big goldfish, a statue of a frog and plenty of squirrels roaming around.
> then we sat with Niske , mom saying something about being able to be outside and Niske broke out in laughter when I said to my mom she was not in a correction institute after all…
>
> one of the caretakers came to tell us the music was about to start, mom did not understand her and kept ordering tea from her, smiley, but in the end we all got up and went to the cafeteria..
> I was expecting mom would not be impressed, it was completely full with residents, curtains half closed, and we sat right by the spot where an older artist was about to start singing and playing with the occasional adding of some taped and prepared music to accompany him.
>
> he started off with some schlagers and at first I felt not at ease, not being fond of the music and expecting mom to start feeling bad, but when she recognized some songs she seemed to be getting into it and I started to relax, with the help of one beer as well…
>
> i noticed she seemed to want to sing along, and made myself do so in encouragement, and actually started to get pleasure in it after a while.
>
> soon she and we where singing along loudly ‘viva España, and the atmosphere was festive and cheerful.
>
> one of the nurses took some old ladies to the dance floor and danced with them, which I found moving, it was so generous, more than what her job obliged her too, such a nice gesture..
>
> some of them have a heart for their job, that is very clear.
>
> i suggested my sister shed take my mom for a dance, and she did, and well, they were the only ones dancing but had a lot of success doing their laid back rock and roll jive, and mom had a great time showing off, smiling from ear to ear, waving at other people and inviting them to dance, not realizing more than half of them were in wheel chairs..
>
> she danced with a bit of extra show, and I took pictures of it with my Iphone, and afterwards my sister told me they were all good and some splendid, mom grinning widely and clearly having a great time..
>
> there was a well known song later on with the lyrics being ‘I love you, I love you give me a kiss’ in a catchy repetitive upbeat rhythm, and mom took my hand and a few times when the words give me a kiss were sang I did give her a big kiss on the cheek.
>
> already early I had asked her if she was having a good time, and she had pressed my knee in a gesture of affection, which my sister has caught as she was just filming.
>
> we stayed all along and mom would have stayed longer if it would not have been dinnner time and time for us to prepare for the bus ride home.
>
> going up to her room we ran into some people of her section, and one man came up to us, and said to mom she should play the next time as she probably played the piano better than the man his guitar..
> so I asked him if he had heard my mom play, and he answered that a lady with such beautiful blue eyes as my mom would certainly play beautifully as well!!…
>
> he said he would gather some people to come listen to her on the piano, mom has an admirer there already, haha, and my sister said he was pretty attractive himself, also blue eyed..
> I had noticed a male voice at mom’s lunch table, between all the female voices..
> so that is good for her, boy, her social life there is getting better than mine, haha! it is such a shame she won’t remember any of this today, but we planned to use the pictures of her with the birds and her dancing to print them off and hang them on the wall, so she can see them and hopefully start to remember and internalize they are taken there, and it is her having a good time, clearly..
> we will also take one of her by the piano, playing..
>
> i did try to send them to my brother, managed to send them I thought, but heard selecting the right pictures had gone wrong and I had always sent other pictures than the ones about mom dancing.
> that sucks but when I see my brother we will select the right ones and mail them so we can print them.
> called mom’s boyfriend and told him too about her having a good time.
>
> oh yes, and shortly before we left we even found out from one of the caretakers she had actually joined the gym that same morning!
> so well, I will not waste my energy anymore trying to convince her to join activities with her responding negatively, and us getting irritated haha, while all the time she did a already participate anyway but did not remember it to tell us..
>
> it was a good afternoon with a difficult start.
> mixed feelings, things will never get completely right, as she forgets, but well, she surely has very nice times in between the grumpy ones and much more socializing than ever before.it is sad she always falls back into negative feelings so far, let’s hope that wears off over time..
> ok now gonna read this mornings comments, M
Margaret, it is good to hear that your mother is doing better at the home now. It sounds like you had a lovely day. That was a touching scene when you all were singing and you kissed her cheek and exchanged affection. Very sweet and tender. I’m glad she participates in activities more and makes new friends. I can imagine that you can let go of your worries a bit now. Excellent idea to put pictures in her room! It must be so difficult for her to always forget what she had done. It is so cruel.
–Bernadette
> Bernadette,
> yes, cruel seems a very good word for her situation..
> she is able to socialize and have a great time but right after gets thrown back into a frightening confusing empty space with no memories and prospects except the environment being different than the one she has been in for the last 55 years.
> we can only hope she participates enough to start feeling more familiar with her actual surroundings and that she socializes most of the time eventually.
> she is courageious and irritatingly cross and stubborn in turns, affectionate and angry, scared and provocative .
> I am still a bit puzzled by what Gretchen meant with us being somewhat symbiotic, probably true in some way, but is it a criticism or not?
> in some ways it can be negative when too much old stuff is unresolved, but on the other hand there is also a lot of silent understanding and trust.
>
> yesterday my mom squeezing my leg meant a lot to me, a simple and straightforward sign of connection, of knowing we both care and mean well and know it and know we know it.
> that seems a good side of the symbiosis of tenderness and love, aside from all the difficult stuff..
> if ever I can single out the right picture of her dancing I might try to post it here, maybe..
> guess I might feel both defensive and proud of her having such a strong personality and impact, not only on me but on a lot of people.
> it feels good I seem more able to allow feeling both sides, the good and the irritating and annoying aspects about her.
>
> very good we can share it as it would be too much of a handful for one person to deal with.
> watching her also warns me to be vigilant about some tendencies of being too negative and judgmental..
> I feel indeed i am better able now to let go a bit, have not called her today, well, one half- hearted attempt in the middle of the afternoon and it was nice to not find her present in her room.
> I am aware of me needing her as well, it is not only altruism..
> exam is coming closer, I just had a look to the OU site for my next course, it completely changed and that is very frustrating as the new site is not well set up for my screenreader.
> too many visual and unlabelled links, useless so far, arch!!
> M
Margaret, it must be absolutely terrifying for your mom not remembering what she did the day before. I could not imagine losing control to such an extent. My heart goes out to her. I am with you, I hope that the more she engages in the activities and becomes more used to the new environment and makes friends, that she will retain more of her current life and situation in her memory. That would make it easier for her to be there. And it would make it easier for you to leave her on her own for a longer period of time. I could imagine that she feels some helplessness, which could cause the frustration and anger and provocations. You seem to be able to handle her different moods very well now.
As far as what Gretchen wrote regarding your symbiotic relationship. You should ask her directly, if you have specific questions or possibly feel criticized. The way I read it, it was not meant as criticism. The way I understand it, is that she thinks you are doing a lot and she is concerned about your and your brother’s well being. She is pointing out that certain dynamics between the three of you (you, mom, brother) have been this way before your mother became ill, and the way I interpret it, you are possibly continuing the same behavior. I don’t know enough of your history with your mom, aside from you sometimes feeling that nothing you did for her was enough, and on the other hand that she smothered you sometimes, both of which you mentioned earlier in this blog, if I remember correctly. Maybe Gretchen wanted you to watch out for that, but of course I can’t speak for her and you should ask her. From what I read, you are aware of your own need for your mother as you take care of her.
When my mother got ill and I visited her, first at the hospital, later in the retirement home, I distinctly remember that she was a lot more approachable than before she got ill. She needed us more. My need to be close to her took over, and I took advantage of the fact that she needed me. I think we both enjoyed our newly found ‘closeness’ for the moment, but of course, it didn’t make up for the distance between us during my childhood. That said, there was something genuine and healing between us when she was more dependent. It was easier for me to love her. There were some tender moments between us.
Good luck with your studies!
–Bernadette
On thinking about transference; that Patrick brought up, and especially that he thought it was unhealthy. I totally disagree. For myself, I have been involved in transference all my life.
Starting at the beginning there was only my mammy, my daddy and my Granny. Eleven months later came my sister which I had to share with mammy … but Granny was always for me, right up to the age of 10.
All our relationships, I feel have connection to those very early ones, call them transference or what you will. My teachers, my doctor, my friends and all my lovers, even my old scoutmaster. We, I feel relate to other from our experiences, old or more recent, subliminal or conscious. I see transference as normal and natural in the sense, that I read Freud to mean it. Why some of us, may try to transcend it, I find hard to conceive, when I feel it is impossible to be without it..
My favorite therapist, Vivian, I claimed was my symbolic Granny. (which I gather did not please her). I felt she cared about me. I think she said it was bad enough being so many peoples symbolic mommy, without being a Granny.
Of course going to the extreme and wanting my therapist, lover or anyone else; to be the daddy I never had, can be counter productive. But here again; if that is the case. I feel we need to work through it; and not to deny it, or worse, claim it to be unhealthy. Least-way this is how I see what Freud was meaning.
Jack
USG, “It’s just time to get as tough as I can, you know?” Feels sad to me to hear that. Life is surely a bitch.
Is it just me or is Jack getting ‘worse’ I mean the guy knows everything about everything has an ‘opinion’ about everything, I of course am always ‘wrong’. I say black he says white, I say blue he say green, I SEE violet lhe sees purple. Like leave me alone I mean do I believe him or my ‘lyin eyes/
I mean it was interesting to take a break and I see him doing pretty much all the same things with Daniel. Daniel makes some good and subtle points oh no the hammer goes down this JUDGE has ruled! And a kind of Taliban Judge not that I have anything against the Taliban really but I mean the harsh Fundamentalism……………..this is how it is and should be according to the BOOK and woman/child/man you are in ‘error’
And I give Daniel major props for seeing the ‘dangers’ in Jack’s ‘ideas’ He spots them on a theoretical level I believe I have seen them in real life and while I would not say they are exactly ‘dangerous’ they can be if you are too naive or take them too literally. Not ‘dangerous’ to Jack really he is the classic ‘ideologue’ and he will always be untouched never lets himself be touched just marches on nursing his own certainties. How much of all this will get ‘quoted back’
That I feel is mostly just ‘hate’ or ‘one upmanship’. He says this blog is a place for people to express feelings (whatever is going on with them) and I agree so then why the f.. does he have an ‘opinion’ or a ‘critique’ of everything certainly everything I say. He seems to have a total inability to see the irony of what he is doing his THEORY says ‘all feelings are vaid’ his PRACTICE is about as much as possibe the opposite of that.
Well he is getting old maybe in that way he has done ok maybe ‘nursing his own certainties’ keeps him sane somehow. But it’s ironic a therapy based on ‘change’ or ‘open to change including ‘ideas’ is the THEORY but in practice not so much or not at all that I can see. There is no need to start any kind of fight about this Jack…………to quote yourself it is just my feeling (about you and even primal in general at least among some of its ‘exponents’ well really mostly just you and Janov)
Being in England it is interesting…………..I saw a postcard in one of the shops yesterday and it said “If you are going through Hell, keep going” and I though I wonder who said that (it reminded me of Jack’s kind of attitude) and it was……….Winston Churchill. Jack often seems to me a kind of Winston Churchill of primal ‘it will be long it will be hard but keep feeling it’ ‘fight them on the beaches, fight them on land and fight them in their own home on their blogs’ whatever. This similarity with Churchill did strike me before and now with the version of history that I kind of go along with Churchill was a very ‘dangerous’ man
a warmonger and propogandist lived ‘in his head’ seemed to have little or no regard for the sufferings of his own or any peoples. And for me at least I appreciate people who can kind of pull back from all that and say basically this guy is full of shit people like Kollerstrom who seems very “English” but who has the ability to see and think in a ‘fresh’ waky and who I hope to meet in a few days
Patrick: cut to cue … what’s the feeling going on in your head that makes seven (yes 7) long (winded) paragraphs about me?. I must be important, one way or another to you. I wonder why you like to come on this blog at all; KNOWING that I will quote you and that, seemingly drives you up the wall. Unless of course you are a masochist. Now THAT’S worth a thought!
REMEMBER ‘bug-a-lugs’ you started this whole ‘Jack and Pony show’, with your attempts to insult me (which failed cos I love reading your ‘blow outs’ … knowing they are just YOUR subliminal feelings) It actually encourages me in the hope that one day you’ll actually “catch on” (“hope springs eternal”)… and don’t forget you ain’t got much time left … you spend the major part of your life running a business … quite successfully I might add … only to give it away. AND from what I gather, on the grape vine, they ain’t too fond of you either … in-spite of your gift to them.
It’s actually sad Patrick. Blogging, as far as I see it, is NOT about being all “lovey dovey”, you have to takes the ‘knocks’ also. Whatever!!!!!
Jack
P. S. So!!! now what’s MY feeling? I love it. I actually await your comments, they are such fun (just another feeling.. since this is a feeling blog). AND … I just know, you can’t leave.
J
I will quote Daniel hopefully he does not mind you seem to be a ‘feeling tripper’ about just as bad as being a ‘head tripper’ which is what it is anyway only more of a pain in the arse (as they say here in England that is) to anyone having to listen. A ‘head tripper’ keeps most of it ‘inside’ the ‘feeling tripper’ makes a big show of it. I don’t see what you do as much of any improvement on the situation just more noisy and very annoying
Quote:- “……..just more noisy and very annoying”
Finally!!!!!! we got a feeling outta you.
Jack
If I keep this up will I be accepted into the ‘feeling-tripper’ club? I like the ‘feeling tripper’ concept and thank Daniel for it. Helps me to deal with the likes of you lol
> Bernadette,
> thanks for your long reply, will reread it again later on.
> it is true our mom has had a tendency to invade our mids to which we had to defend ourselves from an early age.
> need seeming to be her main drive..
> i am aware of it at the same time as being aware of my defenses making me feel like keeping some distance fromm her.
> that last bit was what I felt acutely at some point at the music afternoon, and which I consciously counteracted on by reaching out to her, which was a good thing to do on that moment.
>
> I think part, big part of my feelings are coloured by me expecting most of the time to be disapproved of or disliked by Gretche , yeah, big transference going on there.
> the best option i have is to explore that and express it when that feels helpful.
>
> in the actual situation the need for approval might be even more acute as mom is in a lot of feeling turmoil..
>
> I have never had any problem with living faraway from her, it is not as if I need to be with her or something, lived in Spain for 8 years and planned to go live in the USA.
>
> the strings tying me up are more subtly entertwined in my mind, it is hard to untangle them bit by bit.
>
> I don’t want to remain as ‘distant and hard’ as my defenses have caused me to be and neither do I want to allow her to manipulate me.
>
> I think I have come a long way already, having found more of an emotional balance and ways to deal with her that work to some degree.
>
> so much of my former therapy seems to have been about dad feelings, about him being so distant to me.
>
> the mommy feelings might turn out to be trickier, more complicated, more painful..
>
> you spoke about it once with regard to your own mom, how can you dare to be angry at the one person you need?
>
> I do feel a lot freer with my mom already than I used to be so well, still work in progress..
> M
> it just struck me, that if my expectation to be disliked, to be disapproved of, is so strong, that feeling must be deeply engraved.
> I think apart of true, genuine good feelings, there are also very conditional feelings coming from our mom, depending on how we do what pleases her or not, or to which point we go along with her ‘manipulations’ or not.
>
> it is such a mix of real affection and of her selfish isaciable need, that it wil never be entirely unraveled.
>
> I feel it is a blessing we have each other, my half brother, half sister and me in the middle, as they are both related to me but not to each other.
> it makes it easier to stay in touch with reality and to protect our own life, as to not being swallowed up so to say by her guilt tripping us..
>
> my brother and me were going to go today but changed our plans to tomorrow.
> better for several reasons.
> M
> just got a phone call from the new doctor we chose for our mom, a friendly woman.
> she was called to see mom as she has a lot of pain in her infected ear and also turns out to have a much too high blood pressure.
>
> the doctor asked me for more information about her eyesight, almost blind on one eye, poor on the other, but I seem to remember it was like that already for a while.
> but she still sees fairly well at some distance, worse nearby.
>
> so she is not gonna send mom to an ophtalmologist, which is good, she has been there and her situation is old age related and cannot be treated at this point.
>
> the doctor asked me about the Seroquel and also asked me if mom had ‘wandering’ habits at home, which I denied.
> there seems to be some problem with her occasionallly entering other people’s rooms, but I said it might actually be a good sign, of her looking for things to do, which makes her hopefully more open for more activities to join.
>
> she might also be looking for pleasant company, it is a bit sad to think of mom being bored and somewhat lost there, but that is only part of the time, she has plenty of nice moments thre as well.
>
> the doctor said that despite the side effects taking place right away, the heling efffects of Seroquel take three to four weeks before getting visible, so in a way that sounds good as it might give my mom more time to adjust there without the nurses getting impatient with her and saying they can’t cope. they hopefully think the meds must get a chance to work first..
>
> we can only hope they find ways to give her something to do, at home she had plenty of space to fuss around of course, but there she slept most of her days as she got the medication in the morning as she refused to engage herself to stay home for the nurses visit in the evening…
>
> will have to accept we can’t solve all her problems and there might be many hours she is in her room feeling frustrated, not remembering the activities she had and that are yet to come..
> have to let it be and just do what we can in a reasonable degree, and hope the staff there finds solutions.
>
> the piano won’t go upstairs due to lack of space with the renovating works going on. the promise of a keyboard sounded very halfhearted. we must wait for a while now and see how things develop I guess.
>
> she used to like doing crypto crosswords, I can try to buy her some as maybe she can still do them…
>
> M
> just gave mom a call and am very glad I did.
> she sounded so cheerful, did not remember having seen her boyfriend or the doctor today, but laughed with it and made jokes about it.
> it was really nice hearing her like this, in a good mood and at peace with being there, on this very moment anyway.
> she asked me about me and lauged with some cat stories, so all is well at the moment, and seems to be improving overall.
> such a reassurance to not picture her feeling lost but now at ease, still a bit bored as the evening news is not on for more than an hour still, but saying she will just take a little nap until then.
> sigh with relief and contentment!
> M
Here is a cute little song i first heard while driving up to San Francisco area when phd kid was going to school. Driving in the dark, Z had fallen asleep so i could listen to music. I got sad listening to it today while exercycling in the back yard with the dog and cat lying on the ground, a little cooler today. Sad, I guess, because, maybe it was a part of my life that is over. I liked going up there, it was good to go to the kid’s tiny student apartment and see the streets and sights of the cities up there, the university, eat out at a few places with z and the kid, walk the kid’s dog around the tony neighborhoods by the university, peoples park, the beautiful green hills, i feel so sad writing this. It is just another part of my life that is gone forever, i hate it. i wish i could cry, maybe next week when z and kid go to hawaii. anyway.
i was also listening to the song and hearing yolanda’s young love of her boyfriend, and the way she speaks to him. kills me. i dont have that. i never had that i dont think. or if i had it, it certainly went away.
A friend recommended a book to me “Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life” by James Hollis. I decided to give it a look. So far I would say there isn’t anything in it that we don’t intuit from being in Primal Therapy. However it is interesting to hear someone else express them. On page 38 he writes “Each morning the twin gremlins of fear and lethargy sit at the foot of our bed and smirk. Fear of further departure, fear of the unknown, fear of the challenge of largeness intimidates us back into our convenient rituals, conventional thinking and familiar surroundings. To be recurrently intimidated by the task of life is a form of spiritual intimidation.”…..”Yet the way forward threatens death—-at the very least, the death of what has been familiar, the death of whomever we have been.”
Don’t I know it! Today is a national holiday. I had many plans for this day and this weekend. But it’s 4 pm and all I’ve done is numb out at home. It is the last few days of a 10 jazz festival here. I thought I would at least go to the free stage. If I am honest, fear of being alone is stopping me.
So writing here galvanized me into action. In the midst of getting ready to go out and take in the free stage performances, the feeling hit me, we used to take in these kind of festivities together. The only person I felt myself and alive with, now I never will with her. Feelings about how life can stop us dead in our tracks keep falling on me like bricks. The music of Jesse Cook, San Fermin, London Grammar, James Blake, Chris Otti, for me capture the largesse and tragedy of life, and as I listened to it the flood of feelings came more freely. It’s shocking that life can go so abruptly and bluntly wrong, as it did when I was given away when I was 1 1/2 then moved back with my parents when I was 4 and realized (unconsciously) that there was no warmth between us but I was trapped with them forever—or yes even can end despite our plans and hers did. It just hurts, losing her, my lost childhood, never to return. Slowly I’m feeling deeper, fuller, letting it in more, becoming aware more what it’s done to me, and how it’s made my life hard to live.
On page 39 he writes “The daily confrontation with these gremlins of fear and lethargy obliges us to choose between anxiety and depression, for each is aroused by the dilemma of daily choice. Anxiety will be or companion if we risk the next stage of our journey, and depression our companion if we do not.”
After my feeling last night and accepting my aloneness a little more, I went to watch the evening jazz performance at the outdoor free stage. After about 10 minutes standing amidst the audience, from behind I recognized the person in front of me. She is a casual acquaintance/friend from the cross-country ski club, the canoe club, and the ball room dance club. So I approached her and we talked for a while, catching up with each other. She was waiting for friends.
When they arrived we were introduced to each other. I took up their invitation to join them and their spouses at a table in the beer gardens. It was much nicer being with people rather than alone, although not being a regular part of their crowd I felt somewhat uncomfortable. Much of their conversation with each other dealt with their shared history, their spouses/partners, and their grown up children who had visited for the holiday. Listening to them I felt so much missing from my life, so much relationship building I need to work on to fill my life even a little bit more with people.
With distressed concern I saw in my current shut-down-to-protect-myself child learned behaviour how stunted my capacity is for building and maintaining relationships, and how it will be hard work riddled with anxiety to overcome it. Even then my adult life won’t become what it should have been.
Larry,
Maybe the rest of your weekend will improve
Somewhat related I also have a problem I should be working on but it’s difficult. It’s that my job is very boring and unsatisfying. There are few opportunities around here. This is an outermost suburb of NYC; the trip there is 1 1/2 hours. We are settled here and won’t be moving, especially since my wife has a great job, with great benefits 10 minutes from home. It is a great place to raise a family, but not so much for my career.
It’s hard to imagine staying in this job for another 8 or so years until I would retire.
I need something that will be more rewarding and yet not involve a pay cut.
It would be nice to do something else, but almost impossible to get what I need with a new line of work.. I can’t see commuting to NYC, I’ve done that in the past, and wouldn’t want to do it again.
I hasn’t been hitting me hard right now because it’s vacation time. I’ll have two weeks and then another week for the retreat. But returning after that I know will be bad.
It kind of feels like being stuck in a hopeless situation.
I don’t see how I can fix this problem. It does have it’s
good points; very low stress (to the point of boredom), good schedule, and close by.
But that doesn’t make up for all the negatives with it.
Phil
It does sound like being stuck in a hopeless situation Phil.
Larry,
What I would add is that I feel unimportant at work and I’ve realized some old feelings add to this. My mother didn’t seem to find me important, didn’t talk to me, or notice me,
really at all. At work I want to feel important, and at this job I’m not feeling it. At some past jobs, for example, I supervised a staff and they came to me with problems for me to solve’ which could be stressful, but helped me feel important. Phone calls would be directed to me etc. So I now have a better understanding why I would like to have such a position. Where I am now, it is just boring and unsatisfying.
This also probably relates to why I left so many jobs, made so many changes, looking for exactly what I need, mommy.
Phil
Phil, I relate in feeling the need to be important, the need for meaning and purpose at work. What bothers me is work is the only place I get those now, and I seem to be deciding to retire next Spring, dooming myself to feeling alone and worthless all the time, unless i find some other way to meet those needs.
Ecstasy is still possible? I mean, was it ever possible (for me)? I must have mis-read that. But I will hang on to that thought.
Where did you mis-read that Otto?
Otto: Yeah!!! ecstasy, it’s out there … but it does seem more and more rare. Is that a sign of getting old? I used, as a kid to have lots of it … but then I was lucky. I suppose if one is constantly having to deal with old old pain that can seem like an impossibility. Just knowing it’s out there, always leaves a chance that one could stumble upon it. Don’t give up!!!!
Patrick: not attempting to put one over you, or whatever, but neurosis is a consequence, not a purpose. We keep on hurting until we have fully expressed that deep deep hurt. Some hurts, like unutterable neglect might be impossible to totally feel and express … but chipping away at it, bit by bit, will ease some of it … not necessarily eradicate it.
To hope that our histories could be totally eradicated is a forlorn hope as I see it. It happened. It’s now part of us. I know you’ve often referred to my crying as “crocodile tears”; but crying is simple natural and normal. We (sadly) learned to not cry. This therapy, as I see it, is to get back to allowing us just do that (and others) very simple response, most of us were actually born with.
I repeat, I am not trying to put anything over you, since I thought this comment of yours made sence. Hope you also see it that way.
Jack
OK well………….thanks. It’s just I am staying with my brother who was just over a year older than me so we did pretty much everything together growing up and he is here with his wife so ‘successful marriage’ at least on the outside and his 4 children who visit quite regularly. One is coming from Moscow to day another from Boston………….but I dunno as ‘bad’ as my situation is in that regard well though we are quite different on the outside it seems we both got caught in a trap not much different really.
I think for him it was sort of to ‘prove’ he is normal or can do it I guess I tried and try in different ways to ‘prove’ myself also. All because we just could not be our simple selves
Being good academically and for me being ‘top of the class’ was always important again because the essence of life was missing. He was bullied as much as I but he seemed to be not as ‘affected’ by it. Like he is all into this Brexit thing reading about it, listening to the radio, watching TV etc which is OK most people here are but I dunno he seems TOO into it. Like again to ‘prove’ himself somehow, prove he is ‘normal’ almost.
Of course I am also except I like to keep the idea going that I even am ‘better’ I know even more or something or my thing about ‘hoaxes’ like I see farther and deeper or something. But whatever…………..we are both doing the best we can or doing the only thing we can. Sometimes it all seems so sad and such a round about way of getting nowhere. Reminds me as a child I used to like the saying “the long way around is sometimes the shortest way home’ for me it sure has been a long way around. Another thing I am reminded of a few years ago when my Mom was still alive I said to her talking about my time in America “I want you to know I worked hard even very hard I did not take the easy way” and she said which shocked me at the time “yes the hard way and also the foolish one” I found it shocking in it’s truth really I always regarded my Mom as being a bit or even a lot ‘stupid’ and how in one or two words she showed me I was pretty much the ‘foolish’ one.
It’s life’s process; I would say. Perhaps you don’t remember but I questioned education (among the many other subjects in my book you actually bought.
I remember well going to see Wendy Campbell before I came here, thinking they might open a Primal Institute in England. She made a complimentary remark that had a ‘back slide’ to it. She said you seem to have an intelligent attitude towards Primal therapy … albeit that your intelligence is your best defense. I knew instantly she was absolutely right.
I continue to question many of my ideas and feel this blog helps me to keep that in mind.
Jack
Phil, not to take you away from any feelings, but I forget what it is, that you do (for work). ?
Otto,
I’m a lab technologist. I believe you’re the guy we call in the hospital when our computers aren’t working, (and we have a lot of them). I did work at the local hospital but it was overnight, where someone new often has to start. A day job opened up which I should have gotten, but didn’t, and I left and ended up where I am now.
Over the years I worked at so many different places, if I just would have stuck with one of them better than where I am now, and didn’t move so far from the city, I wouldn’t have this job problem.
Phil
The black guy at work who occasionally had some jazz music playing, moved to another job a few weeks back. I liked the jazz he listened to. I pretty much don’t like most jazz though. Anyway, he is gone, I don’t think about him at all. He was warm and friendly, and had black attitude, always messing around with women at work, even though married. Oh well, out of sight, out of mind. Same with everyone, for me, even the kids. My old old coping mechanism.. Z going to Hawaii, and I probably wont think about her at all. Will have my hands full with 2 dogs who cant be in the same room together and the sick black cat. And work. Not sure if the work is boring, or meaningless, but in a busy hospital, there is always a chance of seeing my “mom”.
Mom!
Mom!
MOM!
where’d you go?
Otto – you reminded me of this a real ‘oldie’ this one
I just had a thought or half a thought or something…………….all our ‘neuroses’ have a purpose sometimes I used to wonder if we are hurt in childhood why do we keep on hurting and well it’s probably nature’s way of protecting itself and sort of a way of trying to prevent us from passing on the damage by having children ourselves. So nature makes us incapable not to keep on hurting us but to protect herself. So in some bigger scheme of ‘evolution’ it very much makes sense. Of course man finds ways of cheating nature by for example having kids when they really should not or have no real ability to raise them. This does not exactly give me consolation (I do not have kids) but at least there is some higher purpose being worked out it seems
Hi Phil,
I will never forget Vivian saying “There is no perfect job.” It brings reality to the situation.
I think you feeling about it and some of all that is great. I too need to go there more and definitely relate to wanting to be important. I deserve to be – my education and experience render me under- employed. I do however like my job and know how l-o-n-g and tedious days can be when you don’t.
For both of us – things are changing. Our children are truly growing up – and for B & I away. Your job whereby you did not commute forever and did not return home exhausted would have been such a plus when you wanted/needed to be with your family.
Is there any way you could work part-time and find another part-time job in addition that you enjoy.
Granted, some financial/benefits etc. may be lost…That is the price. And I get how our expenses do not decrease…
See you soon Phil 🙂
L
Hi Leslie, I can agree with that about there not being a perfect job; maybe why I made so many changes over the years.
It’s great that you have a job you like, that’s what I need. I need to investigate all the possibilities; nothing wrong with two part time jobs.
My youngest son is in college, so that’s a big reason about not wanting a pay cut. The oldest is away at graduate school but supports himself.
We are leaving for Spain today, except for my oldest son. Staying two weeks, and my wife 1 1/2 months. I’ll be bringing my tablet so as to stay in touch with the blog.
I look forward to seeing you soon!
Phil
Bon Voyage Phil! I hope you can relax and enjoy being so far away from your job and house chores etc. – & have great times with your wife and son in exotic Spain!
L
i HATE taking car in for an oil change! 4 hours for an oil change. Just because i am a schlub. wah wah wah. mom! ok, but i now know everything to know about sharks from the discovery channel. wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
now i am pissed at z. you got the car now go dance with kid and be back by 2. you hjad plenty of time to eat, get ot of fucki ng kitchen i needf to cram food down my throat. stop talking to me. diabetiic. tired. oil change was looking good at first. mysterious sexy women in front of me in line at 7am, hugging the technician. 2 women first they came out of building berfore opening time, with tanktops and tatoos at 7 am. then they opened rear door of their car to show some issue with that door, to the technikcan or someomne else, then thney went inside and came back out with shirts on. then the young one went back knside while the older one talked to the technickan for a long time, gesturing fujr;ioujsly wikth her hands. or course she wore very form-fitting pants, so I only stared just a little. Tech came back with an instrument to read codes. Big baking sheet and blanket in the trunk, what the fuck is that for, i am assuming she runs some kind of small cvooking business or getting ready for 4th, a party in the park, like all good latinos do. why am i even thinking about anyhthing. if i took the shujttle home, they dont come back to get you. last time i took the bus, it took 40 minujtes to go 3 mles, and i had to stand the entire way on crowded bus, white amongst latinos. uncomfortable with my dark and lonely personality. thats enough, just had to let some of this go. are you done in the fjcki ng kitche n i am gojkng to eat a stick of butteer now lthat i shoved whjeat thins box dfown my throat.
So many interesting images so interestingly written about your life, thanks.
I get the cramming food down your throat need. I find I’m cramming food down more and more I wonder why. And gaining weight uncomfortably so. Has to stop.
Staying here with my older brother I feel a bit anxious and also ‘talked over’ not used to that, one of the reasons I went away. I don’t like being talked over my brother also talks to much imo at least and most people really. So I do most of the listening so to speak but once today I was talking and he kind of gestures ‘come on get to the end of the story’ for an instant I see red but don’t lose it I just go ‘look I do most of the listening here and now that I am saying something you are telling me to make it quick’ he could see my anger though and he has this pattern with his wife also he kind of ‘dominates’ in some way like in doing most of the talking etc but when challenged pulls his horns in.
This was how it was growing up I mean with my Mom and Dad. My father dominated it was all about his interests, his money, his farm etc but every so often my Mom would ‘rebel’ and even as a child I sort of understood these dynamics I felt sorry for both of them, I hated to see my Dad be intimidated by my Mom’s rages when she finally lost it but I felt bad for her too but mostly I took my Dad’s side. I didn’t like those rages and worse were the ‘silences’ that sometimes went on for almost 3 days. No words at all from my Mom just like a silent protest but like a volcano behind it to give the silence some force.
I feel bad for my brother but also he ’embarrases’ me I find him a bit embarrasing make that a lot embarrasing sometimes. Last time I felt close to him here this time not nearly as much. He talks about politics and soccer all the time and deep down I feel his wife finds him embarrasing also though she seems to ‘love’ him. This reminds me so much of the ’70’s (nothing has changed!) when I was preparing to leave to do primal again something I could not talk about I tried at times but I then felt embarrased about dirty laundry or whatever in the family. So mostly I didn’t and they mostly avoided the topic though I do remember his wife asking me quite seriously why can’t you do what you are going to do just walking around or being yourself here why do you have to pay so much money and go so far away’ and I remember saying something like ‘that’s a good question’ a question to which I did not have a good answer. And on and off over the years I have though she had a good point there.
She is smart and actually I like her but again she is kind of ‘kept down’ by my brother not in any obvious ways but like his interests and concerns come first even though to me they shouldn’t but I guess it’s one of those ‘relationship’ things she is a ‘good’ person but sacrifices herself which in the end or even the beginning does not really help either. That’s why in many ways I actuallly really like being ‘alone’ I pursue the things that really interest me. Personalities are so tricky (and damaged) the idea of fitting too ill fitting things together seems past impossible – at least for me. But I am a bit easier on myself about stuff like that I am alone I like it in many ways and it has advantages. Not perfect but what is anyway I let myself enjoy and appreciate what IS more than dwelling or wondering about what is NOT. At least some of the time. It’s almost midnight here night night.
Thanks for sharing these reflections about your life, Patrick.
nighty night patrick
I went to a movie last night, alone. I sat in an aisle seat, near the centre of the theatre. The theatre was about 3/4 full. The seat beside me was empty. Everyone could see I was alone, but incredibly it didn’t matter to me. I didn’t think they noticed nor cared. For the first time ever I enjoyed being in the public venue enjoying the movie with everyone else and content being by myself. It is an astounding development for me. All my life I’d beeb pathologically uncomfortable being alone in public.
Dear Anon, that is a great accomplishment. I recall being in high school long ago in my senior year having lunch in the cafeteria always hoping to see a friend at a table I could join. God forbid I would have to sit alone being stared at.
Just recently I was at the DMV license renewal and they called what I thought to be my number. I rushed up to the wrong number and returning to my seat of the waiting area I noticed a couple of guys looking embarrassed for me. I just shrugged it off with: “well, at least I got to stretch my legs.” Before I would have been mortified at making a mistake in front of a group.
S
Sorry. Anon was me, posting from a different computer.
Lunatic bitch has so far spent $600 on clothes and “snacks” (because food is so expensive in hawaii) of our money on a trip that the kid wanted to give her as thanks for helping him get through his phd. so i have sent her 5 angry texts, 4 angry emails about this. and i really don’t do the texting thing, ever. what can i say? i know i sound pathetic by putting this on the blog, but what the fuck ever. jesus fucking christ. there has never been any stopping her. just fucking insanity. she drains me. i am now on my 6th peanut butter and jelly sandwich. there was no reveling in the progress i keep making at the pi, there is just absurd, nasty survival with a fucking insane person.
Wow! Glad you could get out your frustration, if only on the blog.
I grok what you are going through . Keep posting.
Last night I had a real horrific dream that I was being attacked by several kids who were threatening to kill me. I did fight them off, but more and more of them joined in. According to Jim I was screaming in my sleep. I did wake after quite sometime, but was terrified that if I screamed, Jim would come and forcefully stop me, (my sense being that it would bring up his old feelings of a similar nature).
This morning I talked to him about it, and he said, I was screaming in my sleep, but he did not try to stop me. Wow!! that was a great relief … but I asked if it ever happened again to NOT try to stop me.
I remember as a kid I used to have this re-occurring dream, but apparently the first time it happened, I was screaming in my sleep. It went on for about a couple of hours according to my parents, my father called the doctor who (smartly) told then NOT to wake me. But it disturbed then greatly, so they carried me into their bed
But apparently it went on and on, so my father went over to my granny’s and told her, and she came over to be with me.
I do remember waking and so surprised to see my granny there and me being in my parents bed. I apparently said to my granny “What are you doing here?”
Not sure right now what all this is about, or even what might have precipitated it, but the feeling is still there and I feel like crying. Meantime, I thought it might help me to write about it on the blog.
For now … Jack
Writing can’t hurt…..Although looking at it another way, hopefully it does.
Larry: The act of writing for the most part does not hurt me, but re-reading (mine or others) can bring tears.
I’m not sure how to quite say this, since this is only MY experience, but crying and being angry and beating a pillow … even terror is not an experience I now run away from. For me, this is the ultimate benefit of Primal therapy.
I remember before coming to therapy, I subscribed to the “Primal Journals” and I distinctly remember an article by Vivian where she said having a “Primal” was no more of a ‘big deal’ than baking a chocolate cake. At the time I greatly resented that statement, and thought “having a Primal WAS/IS a big deal and was somewhat angry at her, saying that …. feeling that it was misleading.
Now I know exactly what she meant. However, it did take me quite some years to be able to get into having feelings (Primals) and them being ‘no big deal’ … in the sense that I now have no desire to run away from them. I can even embrace them.
Jack
Jack, good luck with the feeling.
Phil, I try to ignore the lab techs computer problems as often as possible. There are various blurbs in the daily hospital email message that everyone receives. Some are thanking personnel for their big efforts. or the power is going to go down again, etc. Someone put a thank you in about our newly hired lead who had suspiciously skyrocketed into that lead position. The Blurb said something like, “Thank you F! You always comes immediately to solve our computer problems!” Well, I used to solve their problems at the drop of a hat, mainly because the lab lead was so pushy and i am a doormat. But after they congratulated this jackass, I stopped with the drop of the hat response. HA! I absolutely hate those blurbs, congratulating people for doing what they are supposed to be doing. I feel it pits some employees against the rest. Anyway, where in Spain you went?
Otto , I am in a very small place of only a few thousand people half way between Madrid an Valencia. Things are going well so far; yesterday we had paella, and I played some tennis.
Labs generate a lot of data and are highly computer dependent. Problems can usually occur with the instrument interfaces to the lab network. Lab techs usually dislike IT people, who are know it all’s, who don’t want to release any info. They want everyone as dependent as possible to maximize their importance. That is what generally goes on.
I’m sure you wouldn’t be like that.
Phil
i sit here alone with the 2 dogs and cat,. since wife and kid went to hawaii. Ate too much barbeque that had no flavor, moved boxes of papers out of my room into the living room, in hopes that i can rearrange my bedroom better while sun remains in cancer and wife remains out of my hair. she always seems to get in my way whenever i attempt to do the smallest of things. I know for a fact that there is some truth to astrology because when the sun is in cancer, i always start taking care of my “house”. I started last week moving heavy computers around at work, organizing them so i could at least walk in the rooms where we keep all our old junk. Anyway. It will be difficult to take care of 3 pets and also go to work for 2 weeks. Poor dogs are not used to being alone very much at all. Will give them cannapet but i dont think it really works on the dachshund.
Jack, I really could not think of much more to say to you. I know the level of fear you are talking about. ouch doesn’t cover it.
Otto: there is nothing more to say … you said it all. If you know those depth of terror and are able to re-act that’s all I feel, is needed. Good luck to you also Otto..
Jack
Phil, I learned a long time ago that “users” know more than me. a piece of dirt knows more than me. take my wife, for example. no please, take her (i think that is dangerfield or the other guy). HA! I am sure some of the IT traits that you discuss above are seen in some of our guys, but your IT guys sound like that Computer Guy on Saturday Night Live. Lab people always seem happy to see me, not sure if it is because we are in high demand due to shortage of IT staff or if they really like us.
My son had some luck with one of those online dating sites. He found a girl who liked to do stuff he did, and their dogs got along famously, except when phdkid’s dog decided to bite the other dog for no apparent reason. more than once. It was heartbreaking to watch the tears stream down her face when she was saying goodbye to him for the last time, outside of her apartment. I was there to drive his car and stuff from up north down to L.A. so he could work on his phd. How tragic. Anyway, I guess some of those online dating things actually do work for some people. I am home without Z, and without her constant neediness always waiting to spring forth at any given minute, I got a lot of work done around the house today. not that she is a bad person. just fucking nuts, in my opinion.
was it something i said?
> I have a quiet day, mom seems to be adjusting gradually, and I am well up to schedule studying for my exam next wednesday.
> hardly any sun today, once more, so plenty of leisure time.
> washed some jacket etc, as part of preparation for upcoming trip to L.a., but there is a nagging feeling of fear..
>
> don’t know how to put my finger on it.
> sometimes it feels like I must be very cautious about things I should be doing in order to prevent some disaster to happen, and sometimes it feels like almost the opposite, like whatever I can think of doing it won’t change a thing, my world will fall apart bit by bit anyway, there is nothing good ahead…
>
> read a book about a lady relating about the psycosis she struggled with and the traumatic experiences she had during the times she got locked up in isolation cells and was tied up for a few days..
>
> her description of her paranoid thoughts and gradual loss of touch with reality did ring some chord deep inside of me somehow.
>
> i think part of it is relating to all the paranoia that I had to deal with while smoking pot, for years, and one other time when I took some pills which caused a mild temporary psychosis of thinking I could direct and read others peoples mind to some degree. that was in a centre to kick off the habit of drug use, when we did smuggle in some extra pills which at first made me feel euforic and then over the top..
>
> was worn off the next morning luckily, but I guess it made me very aware of how thin the line is between ‘normal’ and psychotic..
>
> specially at waking up in the morning I can feel so down it is scary.
> less so as I have grown stronger and know the moment I get up it wears off, and can be pretty active so not depressed, but there is some nasty feeling lurking there..
>
> hopelessness, or even despair, not feeling up to whatever, a nightmarish sense of upcoming disaster, all usually vague but with the potential of getting acute I am sure..
>
> all I can do is keep treading forward, and try to pprotect as best I can my loved ones, cats, family, myself, friends..
> and hope this trip and retreat will help me in dealing with some of this..
> M
> gretchen said something about how we possibly have a very hard time accepting someone/a parent/mom/loved one, will die..
> that is probably very true, but it just struck me it is also linked to our own death being undeniably approaching at some point..
> it never seemed to worry me much, apart from the worry of feeling utterly alone.lonely when it would be about to happen, or the possible long suffering before it, but now some fear seems to be rising slowly to the surface, some fear going all the way back to being born and feeling I can’t make it, won’t make it, can’t take much anymore, might lose control and die…
> just before that feeling unfolds it shuts off on the few occasions I got in touch with it, always in dreams or fevers…
>
> it is related to the ultimate unbearable feeling of for example drowning or being asfixiated, sometimes trued just to hold my breath for as long as possible but then it becomes simply unbearable, don’t think anyone can hold his or her breath as the body simply takes over at some point..
>
> but it is that feeling,the sheer panic and terror and unbearability …
> M
Want a surefire route to happiness? Maybe it’s time for a new approach. Be at my best with family and friends. Become the best version of yourself with Dr. Phil.
“What people are saying –Listen to their experience with Life Reimagined and find out what a coach can do.”
I am going to take advice from people that are as ugly and old as i am? no thanks, aarp.
****https://lifereimagined.aarp.org/home?cmp=EMC-MEM-051616-2QLRHR-AARPLR2016&mboxSession=1467939336118-235281****
Margaret, drowning is the worst.
>
> Otto, there must be so many horrible ways to die..
> i have heard once the body inhales water it is immediately over, all systems shut down..
>
> but of course before that, well…
>
> i once saw a scientific experiment on video, about a certain liquid so satured with oxygen, it became ‘breathable’.
> a mouse was immerged in it, no way to get to the surface, so the poor mouse had to go through the experience of drowning, or being about to drown, then finally inhaled the liquid, and then just kept swimming around under water, until the scientist fished it out, holding it by the tip of its tail, upside down, until it exhaled the liquid and could start breathing air again…
>
> that poor mouse must have had some horrible nightmares afterwards, and hopefully some nice ones too about swimming like a fish…
>
> any idea why you think drowning is the worst, Otto?
> M
After a tip off from a friend, I recently found a really beautiful nature reserve close to where I live. While locally I’m within striking distance by car of 4 national parks, the immediate area round my city is something of a desert. And I love to walk in nature and have been missing it, so to hear about this reserve was great news. And it did turn out to be a real gem. Though artificially designed with lots of imported, exotic foreign plants and trees, including tall red woods, the reserve was a real pleasure to walk around – following it’s trails and making discoveries like a tree house and animal and insect sculptures. I’ve been back a few times, lastly a couple of days ago.
On this last visit I was annoyed to find that someone had scrawled graffiti over the welcome sign which said “I was here naked 6/7/16″. I thought about the work it was going to take the wardens to clean that up and also wondered about the mentality of some people who want to deface or destroy beauty. As I carried on walking through the reserve, I started finding more graffiti, which got increasingly sinister. An information post had scrawled over it ” I fuck kids” and “I rape kids”. Then later in the tree house I found “I fuck my son till he screams and bleeds.” I just sort of stared at this in bewilderment although I noticed I wasn’t feeling angry and wondered why, considering what I’ve discovered about my own history of abuse. I just wondered how some psychopath like this could destroy his own son’s life and then not only feel no shame about it but actually flaunt it. Later I discovered more graffiti on a bench that read “Was here naked. I liked it. MIght come back.” From then on I started having fantasies about coming back another day, catching this arsehole having one of his little jaunts, surreptitiously photographing him and taking the evidence to the police. I’m sure I would get real satisfaction out of sending this prick to jail. I’ve been thinking more and more in the last couple of days about spending time every day at the reserve to catch him. However, that could just end up being a colossal waste of my time, but it’s becoming more of an obsession.
The above is from David.
David: Your desire to punish, one way or another the person doing what he/she is doing (their insanity); BUT what made this person insane in the first place……… I suspect some insane cruelty upon him/her as a child. I personally, don’t see punishment as any means to bring about change. However, I can only speak for myself.
The madness of our child-rearing practices is were it all starts to go wrong. How might we turn the whole process around? I DON’T KNOW … but I have pondered the idea long and often.
I have suggested several times one POSSIBLE means … but that does not garner much by way of consideration. To and for me, there is something amiss in what we erroniously call CIVILisation. It being anything but “civil” IMO.
Having watched on PBS TV, a series of programs on “First Peoples”, about the first peoples on each of the continents. Archaeologist and Anthropologists are seemingly rapidly coming to understand that we homo sapiens and earlier versions of ourselves were, not as aggressive as first thought, and there was more interbreeding than originally imagined.
The feeling that grabbed me most was that from our earliest roamings of the planet, in it’s natural surroundings, was far more sane than the life in all our urban comminities. Yet we seem unable to want to reverse it. MY Primal feelings and thinking have brought me closer to now wanting something way more primitive. Just MY ponderings … knowing, I am also a part of the problem.
Jack
Jack, I agree with much of what you have to say. I’m sure my desire for punishment came out of some in-the-moment vitriol fueled by feelings about my own history. My father is dead, so I can’t confront him or express my anger at him directly, not that either of those things would have been helpful to me ultimately, I suppose. So I started to obsess about the idea that I could see some kind of justice done by getting this vandal I described in my post convicted. But whether or not this person actually carried out the acts that he described, the fact that deliberate, shameless sexual abuse happens is undeniable. I read an article in The Guardian recently which included the description of a couple who conceived a child for the sole purpose of sexually abusing them. People like this need to be stopped. But how is that done? By giving them free child rearing advice? I don’t think that will do it. So I share your quandary about how things can be turned around.
David: I agree with you that when feeling angry we tend to want to punish … BUT that is the vicious circle coined “act-out” Not that I am any better than anyone else.
Having used sex addition for most of my whole life I sure understand it’s purpose (pain-killer). For whatever reason I was never into younger teens or children. They wouldn’t have given me the kind of sex I craved … to KILL my pain. Was that more good luck than management? I guess so.
I do feel that I need to be reminded whenever I get into inappropriately expressing my feelings and my Jimbo keeps me well informed. I can swallow what he tells me, now, more than ever before, when all I would do is:- to try and remind him, he too is guilty of the same “Sin”.
I do find that this blog helps me also. Just keeping, best as I am able, to be as straight as I know how. For me it’s a process … not an end game.
Jack
I wrote a while ago about cutting off a friendship with a female friend of mine who’d rejected my advances. I told her I couldn’t be friends with women I’m attracted too. Since then I’ve been back twice to the dance class that we have both frequented. She was there both times, which I expected as I knew she helped out with the set up and took the money on the door. Initially we were both good natured with each other, but didn’t really talk with each other at length. But then later after the class while we were socializing, I felt there were subtle power plays coming from her, that she was trying to assert her popularity over mine in a power struggle to claim the class as her “turf” verses my turf. This made me less and less inclined to want to talk to her. The next time her new boyfriend was there, which made class no fun for me whatsoever. I could see him react defensively towards me went I first arrived and I spent the whole class trying to stay as physically far away from both of them as possible. Which fortunately wasn’t that hard as it was a large class that week. I didn’t bother staying around to socialise afterwards and went straight home. About a week later I got a call from her boyfriend when I was having coffee with a friend. I had chatted with him after class about a year ago and we’d exchanged numbers so I recognised his caller ID on the phone. I didn’t take it as I don’t want to talk to him and don’t know why he would want to talk to me, though I’ve remained curious. I’m going to go back to that class again this week, maybe for the last time. I just don’t see any point, though it saddens me that I could lose out on something I enjoy a great deal and also miss out on a great way of being around people and meeting new people.
Since I cut off this friendship, my primaling has tapered off considerably, back to it’s more usual “ticking over” rate of about once a week. When I do feel, often now in response to health issues that have dogged me for years, it goes back consistently to the sexual abuse issues with my father. I’ve been using photos of myself as a child which have worked to either get me into feelings or deepen feelings when I’m in them. These photos that were taken around the time of the abuse have an added meaning and poignancy to them now that I know more of what I was going through at that age. I find I want to hold and cuddle the child that I was, and tell me/him that it’s going to be ok. I want to comfort and take care of that child that I was. I want to hold him in my arms and comfort him and cradle him and stroke his hair. None of which I remember getting from my parents.
Hello David. I notice a similar development happening with me. Yesterday I looked at an unguarded selfie taken about 6 years ago while I was setting the exposure and timing on my camera and using myself as a test subject. I see in my face the big load of pain I was carrying following the death of my wife the previous year, but at that time not able to acknowledge and be fully conscious of. I just want to wrap my arms around that guy who I was and help him feel secure to feel his immense shock and hurt. No one can make his hurt go away. He has to experience his way through it. I find I feel generous and caring towards him and want to be there for him through his painful adjustment to his new reality. It’s a change in attitude for me, because in the past I never liked the me who I saw in photos. These days I have better understanding of the pain I’ve been carrying and feel more caring for the guy who I was.
About that nature reserve that you discovered, it may be that the person who wrote those shocking comments may not have actually carried out those acts described. The person’s motive in writing that stuff might be to sabbotage anyone’s enjoyment of the park, maybe as a way to strike back at a society and life that the defacer doesn’t feel privileged to be part of.
As for the ending of the so called friendship with that woman, I feel that in a sane adult world you should both be able to accommodate each other in both continuing to go to the class that you both enjoy.
Larry, thanks for your comments. I think you might be right that the graffiti was for some kind of vindictive shock value. I had thought that subsequently, but when I first saw it I just took it all at face value. And it stayed with me as the most prominent impression, that this person simply meant exactly what they wrote. Which would make sense I suppose in light of my history…
Though I’ve never had the kind of relationship you’ve described with your wife, I relate to those feelings of self caring and have noticed a similar change in myself recently. That I’m generally more compassionate and kinder towards myself, and don’t give myself as much of a hard time. It feels healthy.
Like I said, I will give the class another try. Hopefully things can be worked out, but if it’s no fun then there’s no point.
> David,
> are you sure you want to miss out on that class because of them?
> is it not possible to focus on the other people and on the dancing?
> it sounds like a shame to lose out on the class..
> what do you worry about?
> M
Margaret, you’re right that it would be shame to miss out on the class. Indeed it would! And I’ll be giving it another go. Maybe he isn’t there every week. The last class I was pretty anxious about going, and when I got there I found out I had left the pants I use for dancing in at home. I remember when cycling home and then cycling back how … desperate, actually, I felt to be there and that I wasn’t going to be someone who hid and would do everything I could to enjoy myself. Well, that proved pretty challenging, even if amongst 40 odd people there were times when I could focus on other people and get something out of it.
What do I worry about is a good question. I guess I worry about their power to hurt me, though there were no signs at all that they had any such intension to do that. I worry about saying something to them out of pain or anger that leads to me being seen in a bad light by other people. Maybe what I’m really worried about is being in a situation where I have so little control. Feeling powerless. So I can see there being a purpose in being there, for therapeutic reasons if for nothing else.
drowning is one of the worst. what they do to lab animals where i work is probably gruesome. and they are going to expand it. i feel powerless to do anything about it. dont know why the idea of drowning scares me, maybe saw some person drowning kittens as a kid and i understood what was going on. one other fear i have is of being locked in a safe. horrible.
Very quiet around here, I imagined the retreat was going on (4th July) but from what Margaret says that does not seem to be the case. Anyway maybe partly to just create controversy but I did find this ‘funny’ and also I believe quite insightful. It should at least get Jack going I picture him there checking the blog a few 100 times a day and just waiting to pounce or any unwary passerby (like me) esp of course if any ‘doubt’ is cast on PT. Not that this does really but Jack seems to think when I go on about ‘hoaxes’ it is some kind of code for a primal hoax. Which only exists in his mind………… Oh well so be it I suppose I thought this maybe worth whatever grief will come my way…….
Babysitting dogs and cat, finishing off my Chinese food feast from last night. Rarely get Chinese food for reasons i dont care to go into. Tiny bit of free time after using room at PI so I stopped at Target to get socks i needed 6 months ago. Some ma and pa berating their cute little 3 year old, “listen to me, are you listening to me, I don’t want to hear what you think (about some fascination the kid had in the store). Heartbreaking, but I am too much of a wuss to say more than Hi kid, and he really didnt hear me, and then under my breath Calm the fuck down as i walked past the mom. I was afraid to say anything to her because the dad was a copy-cat abuser like her, i heard him halfway down the aisle talking shit to the kid, and i was afraid of him, so all i could mutter is, to think that if they were following some advice if he was autistic, which he did not seem to be, or hyper, which he did not seem to be, and i muttered “but keep it up and he will be”. whatever. not much i can do in those kind of situations. maybe that is one reason i avoid going into stores like Target. low class people? dont know. i could have stopped and talked to the mom, “what a handsome little boy, how old is he?” but that is not me. Z can talk to complete strangers, I run from them. anyway. i dont want to write about my tears today, but i will in a while.
Sorry, Patrick, that guy was just too boring. If he wanted to have someone listen to his theory, he needs a half-naked woman reading from cue cards. Actually for some reason, i thought it was going to be a comedy segment. oh well. it could be re-written into a comedy segment, if someone had the time. By the way, I think the most infamous hoax of all time, is when someone says to a kid, “you know, your mom and dad really love you, but they just can’t show it”.
Otto: Tweety the bird “I taught I taw a purdy chat …… Naw … it was just another hoax. I tink Alice met him down de rabbit hole … Griffin … with talons and the body of a lion or someting or tother”
You know who
Well Otto I didn’t find it boring though I can see a person is into this kind of stuff or not. And most people are not so I understand that. To me though it is beyond interesting
Otto: Yeah!!!! ain’t that the great hoax of all. …… Sadly, some don’t see that one, they are too busy looking for others … it seems.
Jack
Words like ‘sad’ and ‘seems’ have pretty much lost all meaning in your hands. ‘Sad’ is to show how ‘sensitive’ you and are and how ‘feeling’ you are kind of a disguise and a cover for the actual criticism and one up manship and then to ‘cover’ that even more in comes the ‘seems’……….gives a bit more ‘deniability’ as in ‘see I ONLY said it seems………as in it’s just my feeling’………….more posturing to show how ‘feeling’ you are (that’s always in the program). Meanwhile the content of what the guy is saying is as always out the window too much narcissism and self regard to ever much focus on any ‘content’ it’s just me me me me and not in such a good way imo……….so much ‘plausible deniability’ you might as well be in the CIA lol…………
A nice song and video
too many details to write. lets just say there was a good time, and then stuff started getting taken away from me, time and time again. too many times again. bb tried to tell someone in group once, the immensity of it. now i can see it. but too hard to feel the whole thing. it is always just under the surface though. people get taken away from me. my core feeling. rocks off.
Sylvia, the colors are fabulous!
Patrick, that was rude of me. It’s really good for you to be interested in something. sorry.
Otto I did not feel you were ‘rude’ you just said you found it boring most people do I pretty much expect that really. Not a problem at all. The thing is I have gotten away from my concerns about what ‘most people’ think it’s feels like I am mining on my own mostly though not entirely some people I really value and respect and better than dealing with the ‘sad and seeminglies’ with their fake ‘sensitivity’………….
Sylvia,does that song touch you in any particular way?
Yes, Otto. The song by Pearl and the Beard was in the movie “Hello, my name is Doris”, with Sally Field. I caught a glimpse of the words and thought it was a pretty melody too. The first words are: “Oh lovely daughter I’ve mistaken for a son
Rest your head upon my shoulder at once
Tell me all the world you found troublesome
You’re my particles and sweet electrons……”
My mom always thought she was carrying a boy when she was pregnant with me having so many boys before and she was dreading, not looking forward to having me, though once born she was surprised and glad I was here.
Here are the performers of that song
https:youtu.be/-PXFZOHfuwg
S
I feel so empty and being so close to the end of my fucking life.
tear. i would make a music video to rocks off if i could draw. picture this animated black and white maybe, 8th grade typing class 2 buddies next to each other typing to the beat of the music,looking at girls, my buddy a goofy looking guy with glasses smiling, me looking secretly at a girl in the class, the older teacherman with his toupee walking down the aisle, looking around or not.
Otto, I can picture that.
Here is a better address , maybe, for the video, Prodigal Daughter
Junior high was a time of hormones and rebellion, huh; a time of hoping to get invited to parties to play “spin the bottle” and listening to the mournful song “Sukyaki”.
then i guess, cut in a scene of old man me reminiscing, crying a little, which i just did.
I lost that. he dead
ok deep cry, not too long, cant be loud. no ecstasy yet.
that must be the 100th time today that i have listened to that song. how can it seem to be such an upbeat song and yet still have so much sadness in it?
song came out in 72. us druggies would sit around listening to that stuff. he was dead in 73.
mom!
Watching and hearing that song was sweet Sylvia!
Thanks,
L
Yes Leslie. It was cute to see the little girl follow the yarn thru the rose garden, along the sandy beach and onto the forest park to awaiting parents who obviously adore her, and warm her with their sweater. Very real, huh.
S
It is a tender, lovely song Sylvia. Thank you.
I’m still reading “Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life” by James Hollis, PH. D. He is a psychoanalyst in private practice. Those with several years of Primal Therapy under their belt probably have as much intuition or more than is gleaned from reading his book. I feel that some of the conventional psychoanalytic terms he uses obfuscate and fail to get to the core of the issue…namely the pain that drives us— terms such ego (which I see as our functioning self, …pain, defenses, weaknesses and strengths that get us through the life we chose), and complexes (which I interpret as patterns of behaviour we fall into in order to defend against our historical emotional pain). Nevertheless he does write beautifully and evocatively, and it is affirming to hear his views on life’s truths that we must all deal with.
For instance, on page 132, in the chapter The Family During the Second Half of Life, he writes:
“What would happen to our lives, our world, if the parent could unconditionally affirm the child, saying in so many words: ’You are precious to us, you will always have our love and support, you are here to be who you are; try never to hurt another, but never stop trying to become yourself as fully as you can; when you fall and fail, you are still loved by us and welcomed to us, but you are also here to leave us, and to go onward toward your own destiny without having to worry about pleasing us.’ ……..How each child could explore, experiment, falter, and regroup, without shame, without self-derogation, armed always by the experience of love and support, which one may carry as food for the soul in times of desolation and defeat that come to us all!”
Reading the above paragraph helped pry open more of my painful truth as I apprehensively contemplate navigating the next phase of my life. Next Spring I will retire from the work at which I earn my living. My job is meaningful to me. It’s usually enjoyable, and often challenging. It feels like a calling, like a chance to be myself in service to others in a way that interests me and feeds who I am. My work provides me with a place to go 4 days a week, provides me with companionable and interesting people to be with, gives my life structure and an 8 hours per work day usually interesting diversion from the rest of my life’s problems and emptiness. Away from work, such as on long weekends, I often feel overwhelmed by the challenges of how to fill my life.
Feeling empty and alone deep inside all day today, after I got home from work, I cried. I’ve never known the love and support of parents that Hollis describes, the “food for the soul in times of desolation and defeat”. I can never think of when I felt supported and strengthened by their love. If I’m honest, I realize I was afraid to be alone with them because unconsciously deep down I felt estranged from them. I was afraid to be alone with them and realize that the connection between us was absent. Unlike my siblings, I had a really hard time leaving home and making my way in life. Deep down inside I was afraid to leave because I was terrified to realize I never did have a home and felt alone, weak, frightened and empty to the core as I faced the big wide world before me.
This evening at home I cried feeling alone, empty and afraid as I contemplate going forward into the challenges of retirement. Though all my life before Primal Therapy bI blocked out awareness of it, this evening I cried more how much I need my Mom and Dad, though they are both now dead. I acknowledge that they gave me what they could, …a clean home, food on the table, and material comfort, but in my primal I said softly to them “I need more” and cried more deeply over the long buried recognition of my need for love and emotional connection from them, loving them but thinking of my needs first and no longer protecting them, no longer feeling guilty for calling out their deficiency and putting pressure on them to be the loving parents I needed, finally deeply saddened at seeing more clearly it was they who were defective and deficient and not able to be who I needed, and not I who was wrong and bad for needing them.
At the end of the feeling I cried the pain that defined my life, namely the absence that shriveled my soul and drove me to isolate from life, of their love and emotional connection with me, pain embedded in me because of their defectiveness as parents and not because of something wrong with me, but nevertheless a pain and emptiness during that time with them that is in my soul and is my truth forever. It feels ever so sad and yet like the healing of a self-inflicted self-limiting wound, to acknowledge that their defectiveness is the cause of my life long burden of fear and emptiness, not me. It is ever so sad that I was denied the chance to openly love them, and that they were never capable of experiencing their only one lifetime opportunity to love me.
Thanks Sylvia. I am glad your mom was glad you were here.
Larry, why you retire? As i read stuff on internet, many people cant afford to retire, or as you do, their work is their life. I am pretty much the same way at this point, my work is a big part of my life, there are people all around, the cafeteria food is terrible, but there is bustling life there. I can’t afford to retire, I have thought much about wanting to retire but what would i do, sort thru all my bills and papers day after day? go to the beach? mmm. i doubt it. my job is a pain in the ass a lot of times, and i am not sure if the work is meaningless or not, and i hate for an organization that tortures lab animals. well, no choice for me anyways. no money. there is a theory out that 2 months after men retire, they have a heart attack and die.
Larry that paragraph is so telling to read as a child who missed out on that love and support, and also comforting as a Mom whose sons are now out there in their /on their own journeys.
Your writing as always is so clear – getting right to the heart of how very sad it is – yes for all when love was not there…
ox L
i forgot to write something about this previously, or was too tired. Anyway, the thought struck me that LOCATION was my mom or parent or whatever. Being an orphan and left alone a lot of the time, i guess i transferred my need or imprint of parent to a room. FUCKING CAT IS HOWLING. DONT KNOW IF HE MISSES Z OR IF HIS MED WENT BAD DUE TO FRIDGE HAS STARTED TO DIE. Anyway, and i cant exactly find words for it, the room or house or place, like Hollywood, Long Beach, that assumed the role of mom cradling me in her arms (since no mom etc). I am too tired to go on with this. I just wanted to finally get it written down. Or maybe the Cancer women i was around very early in life had a thing about HOME. Mom, 2 Aunts, Grandma, Great Aunt, all Cancers. Some of them nurturing, some in their own rusty way. Not a real great image, always seeing my Grandma with her back to me, washing dishes or hanging up clothes on the clothesline, or esconced in her room with her religious show on the radio, because she was exhausted by life and still having to go to work at age 65, and all the way up to 70 years or more. Women. I just have indelible images of all the homes i have been in over the past 6 decades. ok got to sleep and do it all over again. Count all the computers into the mainframe computer, and then do it again next year, if i have not retired face down in the hall at work.
Patrick, did you take a canary down with you in the mine? Preferably, a canary who has been proven to sing. In case of noxious stuff that the bird can sense and tell you to get the f out of there. Generally, I don’t think birds should be in cages, however I think you could use a little companionship down there in that deep dark mine, of which you said you are mining on your own. Feel free to share any nuggets of gold you find down there, and come up for the sunshine sometimes. I have a picture of my uncle when he was young, in front of a tent. He once told me he used to go out to the desert here in California to find turquoise. He eventually drank himself to death, probably never got over the death of his wife, my aunt, and maybe their 2 boston terriers, or maybe it was only one.
Otto – Neil Young said it better than I could ever hope to and I suppose with me more than a ‘heart of gold’ I am breathing mostly coal dust and ‘working’ dawn to midnight for little enough ‘reward’………….
Black cat licking steak grease off my plate. It is ok because the fungal med he is on today requires fat and a full belly to work. he seems happy enough. he gives me reason to live.
Larry, I forgot to tell you, if anything i said sounded like advice, please disregard it. My advice to myself for the past 50 or so years has been instrumental in my misery.
Keep writing Otto. I want to give you a hug just for responding.
Off topic (and then again perhaps not so much):
If Hillary Clinton will win the national elections the US, Germany and the UK will all be headed by women. This is unprecedented – the western world will pretty much be, and for the first time, led by women.
I think it’s wonderful.
Daniel: A great thought … BUT the last woman, Thatcher, was an ‘Iron Lady’ and like her freind and compatriate (Ronnie) died of dementia. This one doesn’t seem to me, from watching her bluster outsie 10 Downing Street, to be that much more feminine.
I do feel that the male of this spiecies hasn’t done a great job for mankind as a whole, but then I doubt Hilary could be worse … and cetainly not as stupid as her potential rival … Donald T.
I’m looking forward to a ‘three ring circus’ next Monday … That should be fun.
Jack
Daniel – I wish I could be so optimistic. Hillary Clinton I feel sure in saying is going to be a disaster for the US and maybe more to the point places like Syria and Iran (though it’s very bad already) and may well push us towards a war with Russia. We are talking WW3 there. Also I think the woman factor will work against her and us in that she will be keen to show she can bomb away as good as any man. We KNOW that already she does not need to ‘prove’ that but prove it she will I fear.
I think we ‘console’ ourselves with stuff like this women presidents, gay marriage etc etc when to me what Otto says is more to the point, all insects dying it seems all life in deep trouble in this transgender future that is supposed to be so wonderful. To me it’s just another bad ‘sign’ a sign of life on the skids
Has Merkel shown any particular ‘wisdom’ in Germany I don’t think so though it’s hard for any German leader to make sense nowadays the people have been so brain washed about their own ‘evil’ which is so far from the truth imo…………..anyway or as Jack mentioned Maggie Thatcher was to me at least a kind of horrible war monger who used ‘cheap and easy’ wars (Falklands) to get her way. A lesson not lost on the likes of Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld and who just about destroyed what was good about Britain (all imo of course does that need to be said? probably so as my first and major critic would point out that ‘obvious’ he likes to pound on the ‘obvious) anyway I gotta go but the fact we will now have THREE women (UK is just about to get Theresa May) means nothing either good or bad but I would tend towards the ‘bad’ it’s like any leadership is lost and we are meant to ‘all just get along’ in this feminized world but we won’t (get along) that is…
If my memory serves me right I feel that I was far from your first critic. Wasn’t that your mother??? And there were others at GG including you original partner … when in those days I was (foolishly) defending you, at a time some were wanting to go on strike, because of your mean behavior … so they claimed
You are far too pre-occupied with and about me. I surely can’t be that important to either you, Gentle Giant or even on the Primal blog. Not even for a blog article contributor, since you got one way before me. However no ‘skin off my nose’ … just a thought … keep at it if you must.
Jack
Otto and Leslie, thank you for your responses to my July 11 post, in which I had written how I had looked inward at emptiness, at feelings and truths that I had carried but denied and had been blind to for decades, That when I risked expressing them here in your genuine humanity you heard and responded, emphasized for me even more the chasm between my parents and I so big and so early in my life that I have almost no memory of ever reaching out to them knowing very early that they couldn’t see me. Your responses in contrast made my lifetime lack of connection loom even larger such that I had difficulty sleeping that night. I’ve been crying out more of the need and emptiness today. It’s unbelievable that it’s possible after a lifetime of needing, to stop hoping, to stop blindly pretending, to stop running and to face more the truth and accept that I and little Larry will never get what we need emotionally from them. It’s possible for me to accept and find and meet my needs through other people (though hard for me to do), but little Larry is forever doomed—had and has no one but me.
Otto, your ‘advice’ regarding my retirement was fine. I saw it more as you exploring realistically what your job and retirement means to you. I feel you were pretty honest about it.
Some people ask me why am I still working. Others ask why don’t I keep working.
My boss retired last summer. A couple of technician colleagues who I’ve worked alongside for 21 years retired this Spring, one along with his boss. Several technicians who I eat lunch with will retire this fall, and a few more in a year or two. Another scientist, who has become my administrative supervisor for now, will retire next summer. Most of my cohorts whose companionship helped fill my workday have left or are leaving. Although work this summer has been fun and interesting, there is gradually less of it and I’m gradually less challenged as the nature of the work changes under the biologist I’m currently helping. I dread being bored and just putting in time because I’m afraid of retirement. Also, I don’t have the same energy and don’t want to work as long and hard as I did when I was young, so I don’t relish working for soon to be hired young new scientists at the start of their career. I want to learn to have and enjoy other aspects of life.
If I could I would stay at my job part time, but there is no such option available. Last September I signed up for a retirement transition program. In it I work 4 days a week. I like 4 days a week. I think 3 would feel even better, and about right. The maximum allowable duration of the retirement transition is two years, to September 2017, after which I have to retire. But instead of retiring in 2017 just before winter, I’ve decided to retire next spring with summer still ahead of me.
There are always life challenges we have to take on, that I dreaded but have been worthwhile. Retirement is another big challenge that I dread, that will be difficult at first but I hope will become worthwhile. It’s bringing up LOTS of feelings, but so far the main undercurrent is that I want to face it.
Larry: I remember as my 60’s rolled on, and thought I was NOT going to retire. It seemed to me at the time that retirement was a sort of ‘death knell’. I thought to remain as active as I was able until such times as I needed to slow down … due to whatever. But then as 67 arrived and I was able to apply for pension having done my 40 quarters and paying my taxes. I did decide to sort of retire least-ways from the kind of work I had been doing.
It then became clear that I was now free to do whatever I liked within the confines of my pension; visiting, travelling, and blogging. I had in my younger days been an avid photographer in the days of what I called ‘wet photography’. My expertise was theatrical portraiture if expertise was any accolade. Strangely, even though I had a digital camera, the inspiration did not hit me.
It became a case of doing what turned up for me on a daily basis. In hindsight I feel that planning for retirement is a forlorn task, and worse trying to anticipate what it might feel like is equally forlorn. I did continue with retreats for a few more years and treated them as my yearly holiday. Then at one point felt “been there, NOW have done that”.
Philosophically I feel that hoping for, and planing for (except in the short run, say for a trip) the future is part of that ‘Primal Hope’ That’s not to say that I don’t have fantasies about things; I do, but if they don’t turn out as I had hoped … no big deal.
Of course all this is just me and our circumstances are very different. But hoped by giving my “two pennuth” It might inspire ideas.
Jack
Larry, just a quickie. You do some work with insects, right? I just saw a quck title on yahoo today about ALL the insects are dying off, not just bees and the other ones. Here in L.A., we always see the lone butterfly flitting about, desperately looking for a mate. Sad. And absolutely no more bugs you know the red beetles, funny cant remember what they are called, you buy a bucket of them to eat aphids in your garden. you buy them and then the birds eat them all. However we did see more of those little yellow moths this year, at least i did, the kind that you catch by the wings and get yellow dust on your fingers. there is always one of those big bumbly shiney flying bugs, has a sort of irradescent green coat. anyway, i always like seeing the few bugs left, except flies and mosquitoes which always go for my sweat or blood or who knows what. or maybe your work was not with bugs. whatever.
Otto: I’ll let Larry fill you in on the other bugs, but the red ones I think you were talking about we call them “Lady birds” but I think here in the US you call them “lady bugs”. Hope those were the ones you meant. And Yeah I think we over did the DDT. I feel we humans are making a grand mess of the whole planet. Someone tell me I wrong; but sadly I feel I might (for once) be right.
Jack
Regarding those red beetles, Otto, I’m with Jack, sounds like you are talking about Lady Bugs or also called Lady Birds. Yeah, they love to eat aphids. But I would park on the ‘maybe not’ pile that bit of Yahoo info that all the insects are dying off, leading to your observation that there are no bugs left in LA. Here is a quote from an interesting article in the April 20, 2016 issue of the New Scientist magazine.
“City streets, industrial sites, parks and gardens were once seen as biological deserts. But their nooks and crannies are turning out to be rich in species………..Los Angeles is home to one of the most diverse ecosystems in the world,” says Brian Brown, the LA museum’s curator of entomology. The city sits in one of the planet’s top 35 biodiversity hotspots. But LA isn’t alone. Across the world, urban landscapes “are as important for biodiversity as ancient woodlands”, says Matt Shardlow of the UK conservation group Buglife.”
Larry, funny, they just started offering retirement transistion program where i work. I guess the millenials are going to be up shit creek without a paddle as all of us baby-boomers retire. We have been hoarding all the knowledge for ourselves, so they will have to figure it out for themselves. I am not saying the baby-boomers are the biggest hoarders, that title could be claimed by…I don’t know…no creativity striking me. obviously not potato-hoarders though. no need to hoard potatoes, all the potato bugs are dying off.
Are you saying you think there won’t be enough millenials to fill all the knowledge positions vacated by the boomers? Hmmm, I never thought of that before.
Otto and Jack, retirement scares the s— out of me if I’m honest with myself, but so did the prospect of my wife dying scare the wits out of me. Both have to do with change that I dread. More and more I’m absorbing the shock and pain of death, feeling the full blow of being hit by it, helpless. Maybe eventually the change brought by retirement will seem tame in comparison.
Hearing this song Renegades this morning brought tears to my eyes. When my wife and I left LA to venture out into the world on our own, with Primal Therapy under our belts, I felt like we were renegades, out to make a life our own way, following our own rules. I couldn’t have done it without her. Where does it all go now?!
Larry: Having met you and gone out for dinner with you twice, I have more confidence in you than you seem to have of yourself. Just my feeling; BUT since you did achieve what seemed like a great relationship between you and Noreen, I feel strongly that you would be able to get another.
There are lot of people, and women (you prefer to call ladies) out there doing shopping, resting and taking in the weather on park benches and even just causally walking in the streets. There’s a great chance you’ll meet someone else. Of course no-one will ever take Noreen’s place …. that is obviously very very special to you.
You don’t have to be lonely. Loneliness is just suffering alone-ness … and yes, in your instance it is a major part of your painful past in childhood … which I see as devastating. However, apparently there is a sign at the institute, with an arrow depicting a direction for “Change” You’ve done a great deal of therapy, and I feel you are capable of bringing that about in your pending retirement. I would suggest that you don’t dwell on how it might be. Let it take it own course of events.
Of course that is very easy for me to say … quite another to actually put that into effect … but not impossible. I wish you all the good fortune for your future, Larry.
Jack
Patrick, I was listening to some Neil Young the other day, and I thought i was going to start listening to him more again, then i forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder. Me and another patient played and sang Old Man back in the days when there was still a Primal Talent night. Unfortunately, my short-term partner died a bit later, a countryman of yours, U.O’R. r.i. p. sad sad sad
Otto, Your right… So sad . I think of UO’R so often! Gretch
Gretch and Otto: I was trying to think who U.O’R was then it hit me. Was it Ulrick? I worked on moving Jobs with him and I too was very sad when he died. He was a very sweet guy.
Jack
no. dont know ulrich. ultan
Otto” Sorry yes Ultan
Jack
yep. gretchen. poor guy
> Phil, how are you doing on your holiday?
>
> I feel tired right now.
> all seems to come together.
> yesterday did my exam, felt I knew the course pretty well, but the questions are often so unclear and confusing I am not sure what to expect from the results.
> afterwards sat down with a university assistant to look at the new make up of the website, the organisation of my next course, philosophy, and all the difficulties of the site to work with the screenreader. we discovered a lot of unlabeled buttons and menu options, and links only assigned t
> with a visual icon and one letter, g, f, c, which of course does not help me to know where it leads to…
>
> but in any case going over it with someone who could explain some of the stuff did help..
> he only had the test version of the website so far, so looking at it from inside a course was new to him too and useful to be able to point out some flaws.
>
> today had to go with my cats to the vet for a check up, one of them had a sore front paw, and after waiting a few days and it still not being well I decided to have it checked.
> just that morning it was occasionally a bit better seemingly, but decided to go anyway and take the other one too as next month they would have had to go so might as well do o
> it all now.
> of course it is a big stresssful undertaking to manage to get two big cats into their travel cases just in time to get into the car and get to teheir appointment, but I managed to do so and gave them some cat yummy nibbbles in their cage to comfort and award them for being so cooperative.
> the paw was probably sprained and did not need treatment as it was improving, they both were otherwise fine and the vet said they looked like being taken care of really very well, and hey, I did manage to not have them vaccinated this year, with all the talking about it since last year with them, and them evaluating the value of it differently for cats who mix and mingle outdoors or who don’t interact with strange
> cats, they changed their policy into skipping a year whenever possible and giving the minimal treatments in general.
>
> so it was nice to have my cats back home safe and sound and healthy, and I had a nice lunch with the girlfriend who had driven us.
> we talked about our mums, hers died last year, and at some point, when at the end my conclusion about mine was ‘I wished I had an adult and happy mom’, I was about to cry, it seemed to be the nail on the head, and she gave me a good hug.
> later on I thought I might have added an adult and happy mom who c
> would like and support me..why do I say like and not love?
> probably because she can be so critical in general, and tends to turn things into arguments..
> can someone love someone and at the same time not like them ? I guess so, if it is just some aspects that are not liked..
>
> oh well,…
>
> but then, after all of that, I called the home for a chat and maybe to encourage mom to join the folk dancing that was the activity of the afternoon, but I got a cheerful caretaker on the phone who told me she had just convinced my mom to join the dancing.
> so that felt great.
> was talking to halfsitster on the phone when my brother called, o
> all of it while my cleaning lady also had arrived and was doing the rooms where my cats did not hide , as I had asked her to give the cats some rest after the scare of the morning, so anyway, had to end call with sister to take brothers, and he said he a
> had had an urgeint message to come to the home, luckily he was nearby in my mom’s house, as mom was freaking out and wanted to leave.
> turns out she had started to get worked up at the c
> dance for not having her handbag there with her, which was up in her room of course, and she threw such a tantrum they had to take her there and look for the handbag,a nurse and social worker present, and as mom wanted to pack and leave they called my brother and the doctor who happened to be there anyway..
>
> my brother was telling me all of that and then he had to hang up the phone as the doctor arrived in my mom’s room.
> I waited a while but then called back, as it occurred to me they should watch our mom who gets her medication in a little plastic jar together with her evening meal, but she is capable to throw it in the toilet.
> so I told my brother to let them know they should keep an eye on her taking the pills.
> as when they htink she has taken them and still becomes hard to deal with, they might increase the dose or add a tranquilizer, while the real problem is she did not take her meds in the first place possibly.
>
> when I had my mom on the phone she had already forgotten about the whole fuss..
>
> at the same time we, me and brother talked about the options for the furniture and little belongings as there are various offers and posssibilities.
>
> more aggravating things happened, likesmartphone playing up and acting crazy, but to keep it short, well, sorry, not so short, a bit hectic and chaotic all of it.
> oh yes, forgot to say some phone calls got interrupted twice by someone else offering me some kind of volunteer job and wanting an appointment…
>
> now feel tired but also tense, will have to unwind bit by bit, will have another call from brother at some point and maybe halfsister as well, some little chores to do and then play with cats to calm down and to start feeling some of the nicer sides of life..
> f.. weather still very unstable and chilly at times, heavy rain showers, even some hail…..
> grr sigh..
> M and cats
> aargh!!
> sequel from this afternoon:
> my brother just called and told me about the talk he had there with the head nurse and one of the social workers there.
> they complained about our mom trying to walk out three times on saturday, but every time someone noticed it and brought her back before she got out on the street, and said she also wanders around at night naked and goes into other people’s rooms.
> they said she causes distress..
> they talked about the ‘protected ward’, and to not get into an argument immediately my brother agreed to go and have a look at it, he told me it is nice and clean but said the people who live there are all in wheelchairs and a lot of them more or less like plants.
> he said to me no way I will agree to let her be moved to that ward, but let’s play it like I did this afternoon, saying we will discuss it in the family and come back on it later on.
> the main thing is he followed my advice and told them they should not leave mom’s medication simply in a plastic containrer by her evening meal and leave it up to her to take it, as all these stories seem to point to the possibility she simply did not take her medication, as normally she would be fast asleep if she did.
> and an empty container is no proof she took it, they must watch her take it as otherwise she throws it away for sure. she does not like having to take meds so definitely does not take it voluntarily.
>
> also he told them they should not leave all doors wide open all day, anyone can walk in and out and the gates of the parking lot are wide open, and the garden is not even fenced.
> if only they would put some automatic system on the gate that would solve a lot..
> he also told them she has only been there for three weeks and deserves more time to adjust.
>
> it is painful and upsetting they want to put someone in a closed ward just for being a bit of a handful occasionally..
> but today my brother witnessed she had to take her meds under supervision, so hopefully that solves the problem.
>
> and anyway, say that that would not be the case, to avoid her roaming around at night it seems to me it would still be better to give her a light sleeping tablet then, than to put her in a ‘protected’ ward between people who are mentally almost gone, and the doors locked.
> that would be horrible, and cruel, and I don’t think we could in any way agree to it at this point, or in a nearby future.
>
> but I think it was a wise idea of my brother to just go along a bit in being ‘understanding’ and empathic about it not being easy, but to come back on the medication regularly and just keep postponing forever to agree to anything like what specially that one social worker seems to want.
> that one is a bit of a woman that wants no problems whatsoever, and sees problems everywhere.
> mom has been adjusting so far, they should accept some people are a bit more difficult but not necessarily only fit for a protected ward.
> i hate to imagine what it would t
> do to our mom who can be very clear a lot of the time to discover she has been locked inthere, even if they take them to places and to the cafetaria regularly.
>
> we will keep opposing diplomatically and let’s hope things arrange thmeselves over time…
>
> mom was easily calmed down once my broehter was there, she can be a handful and actually hard to handle and stubborn like a mule, but well, they are professionals, and should find ways to deal with it other than to lock them up..
>
> boy this is painful and scary, glad my brother handled it so calmly, but I feel sure he must feel bad inside as well.
>
> hopefully mom gets less rebellious, and hopefully it was because the meds were not taken and things sort themselves out now..
> will try to let it go for now, still very tired but now also worked up……
> M
Margaret,
I hope your mother doesn’t have to go to the protected ward. Maybe if you and your brother keep working against it, that won’t happen.
I have been enjoying my vacation here in Spain, relaxing a lot, eating well, something easy to achieve. More difficult is to do better with the language. I studied quite a bit the last year but only notice a slight improvement if anything.
My vocabulary is decent but I don’t do that well putting it into use. I mostly end up saying only what I need to say and not much more.
The problem is although I would like to be fluent in Spanish, I just can’t make the effort needed to achieve that level because of the struggle it will take to talk more with people.
That has always been the problem and I don’t see a way around it. I just don’t feel like trying to talk to people that much if I don’t have to, and I don’t, as when I’m here, it’s only for vacation.
I visited Miguel in Seville, and that was a lot of fun.
We are watching the news of the latest terroroist attack, or whatever it was with horror.
This Sunday I’ll be leaving for home with my son. He’s ready to go but I’d like to stay longer.
Phil
> I feel so tense, depressed and scared.
> I don’t want our mom to end up in a protected ward before it is the proper place for her to be taken care of there, and in my opinion that is not at all the case so far.
> it is a dreadful idea some of the staff membes there seem to be inclined to do so..
>
> what can we do?
> opppose and procrastinate and follow up if they give the medication in the proper way, and also if they then help my mom with putting her nightgown on etc. as she needs that when the meds start working..
> we have already given notice to her landlord and are in the middle of giving away her furniture and stuff..
>
> it weighs on me terribly at this moment, saddens me and scares the hell out of me.
> M
> Phil,
> thanks for the update about your vacation, it sounds like despite the language limitations you are having a good time.
> and being in the midst of so much spoken Spanish must inevitably improve your knowledge bit by bit, by simple assimilation, I would think at some point it must get a little easier to start speaking just a bit more.
> i can imagine though it must be hard, I would also be reluctant to get engaged in a conversation I cannot keep up with, i already have that due to my bad hearing, when there is too much noise I rather act as if talking does not interest me, as it is so embarassing to lose part of what is being said. that is a very unpleasant situation to be in..
>
> as for my mom I just heard from my halfsister who had an uncle in a similar situation, they need the family’s consent to move someone to a protected ward, and at this point they are certainly not about to get it!
> knowing that has taken some of the edge of my worry, but today I feel exhausted and lonely and so far have done not much more than some phone calls and listening to an audio book.
> not very satisfying but feel up to not much else..
> cat’s paw is still getting better, luckily!!
> feel a bit reluctant to call mom but will do so anyway to check on her, give her some support and ease my own loneliness a bit hopefully…
> M
> just called mom and she was nice, clear and friendly.
> she saw people in the garden through her window and told me she wanted to go outside and join them, and when I said she should simply warn the nurse on her ward when she did, so they would not worry about her, she made no problem of it, was reasonable about it and promised to do so.
> but just then her evening meal arrived, already at 4.30 pm..
> I know it does not mean they have to be there and eat it necessarily at that hour, as they keep the tea or coffee warm until the resident is ready to eat, but in any case I was glad she decided to stay and eat..
>
> it is sad,she wants simple things, to be out, with people, have a good time and a reasonable feeling of freedom, and wants to know and understand what goes on, which sometimes is of course very difficult with her memory and mental limitations at her age..
>
> as she sounded so calm and pleasant, I hope it is because of the medication they gave in the proper way yesterday evening, as in that case the problems should diminish when they keep doing so accurately, and the harassing us about the ‘protected’ ward will hopefully cease.
>
> it is sad to imagine her there tomorrow, no activities planned on saturday, if I would be able to drive up there I would go and go for a nice walk with her, but it is very expensive to go there by taxi and then still on my own I would get lost as she is not good anymore at knowing the way either..
>
> will go on tuesday with my half sister and on sunday her boyfriend usually takes her for a walk.
>
> I feel so protective of her, specially now knowing there seem to be a few staff members looking for causes for complaints..
>
> also they never took her to the piano and it won’t be moved upstairs either, too little space right now..
> so of course she tries to find ways to be busy, on a day like saturday when nothing happens and her state of mind limits the initiatives she could come up with, like inviting Niske to do something together..
>
> there is a big pool of sadness and fear I have no direct access to right now, some despair too I guess..
> waking up already feeling depressed and hearing about the truck massacre in Nice with all the child victims and 50 children in hospital did not help to feel more hopeful..
>
> still some of the gloomy mist seems to be lifting , hopefully a good night’s sleep will help, but hey, bad weatherforecasts again for the coming days, f…
>
> a lousy spring and summer so far over here!!
> M
Margaret – I hesitate to be a ‘broken record’ on this NIce business and must admit I have not had much time or resources to look at or into this as I am still travelling (just arrived in Ireland but not home yet for a few days) anyway the bits I have seen scream ‘fake’ all over again. You have ‘bodies’ on the streets that look exactly like dummies in these weird poses legs kind of splayed apart, dressed in it seems mostly their underwear. LIke are we really supposed to take this seriously. They also have a kind of pseudo “Crucifiction” pose like is this meant to along with pumping fake fear everywhere also in the process mock Christianity. Even mix up the Crusifiction with almost some ghastly pornography kind of theme.
This again screams hatred of Christianity and Jesus………………which as usual would seem to be a Zionist agenda and nothing to do with so called Islam or Muslims. Any Talmud readers would be able to explain this better than me. Maybe Gretchen or Barry or Daniel could have a go at this and ‘explain’ it a bit to us since they are Jewish. I say this not in a sarcastic way but in all seriousness they might be able to…………..because for me at least we seem to be dealing with a hatred and absurdity which is beyond me
Gretchen and Barry are unavailable for comment, they’re still laing low in a Nice safe house and can’t break radio silence. As for me, I’m in our command and control center consulting my Talmud. I’ll get back to you once I’m finished with all this porno-crusifiction
Daniel: Keep us, at least me, informed. Certainly about all the porno; even though all that stuff has now passed me by. “To long in the tooth” as they say in my nick of the woods.
I just hope they are paying you enough to run that ‘command and control center’, AND hope you too are keeping safe in your bunker … you never know who’s just around the corner. 🙂 🙂 .
Jack
quote:- “…………..because for me at least we seem to be dealing with a hatred and absurdity which is beyond me”.
That about sums you up, at least psychologically. Ever since you came onto this blog you’ve been spewing hate and anger beyond any ones ability to stop you. So I suppose in that respect you are talking from deep within yourself.
As for the fakery I am astounded that you can believe that such massive incidents can be staged, and so many of them. Does it not get you to look somewhat inwards towards yourself???
Other than you obsession about me, the obsession for hoax’ and fakery seem a little out of balance, for someone that pretends to have a semblance of the world around (you).himself.
In some quarters it’s called “being off ones rocker” AND yes!!! I left mine … some four score years ago. 🙂 🙂
Jack
> finally the dam cracked and I was able to have a cry.
> what triggered me was reading a John Irving book, Avenida de los misterios’, in which at some point a young girl deliberately goes into an old lion’s cage, with the intent to be killed for a lot of different reasons not matttering here.
> then the lion, who only gave her one quick bite in the neck as she provoked him intentionally by impeding him to get to his food, but who only ate the food and then left her alone after the deadly bite, sits in the far corner of the cage, looking sorry and guilty and scared.
> his owner goes up to him and shoots him twice in the head..
>
> the idea of that poor lion in its corner, scared and actually innocent in his way, wanting to be good and longing to trust but having noone around he can trust, really got to me..
>
> I cried hard and long, sadness and hopelesssness prevailing, no clear primal memories but that is often the case.
>
> it is the combination of the fear, the innocence and the meaning well, the being cornered and scared and desperate with still a glimpse of hope to be treated nicely, am about to cry again..
>
> it was good that after the cry I could lay with my two cats who laid close to each othr on the back of the bed, and could caress them both, the one with the sore paw relaxing more easily as he saw how his brother really immediately is thrilled with being caressed, and then the more reserved one also sstarting to purr, it felt good and like balm on my soul.
>
> then I remembered how I was always good at reassuring and calming down scared animals, horses or cats or dogs, taking all the time needed and with seeemingly a good skill to do so.
> probably because it really mattered to me to ease their fear, make them trust my good intentions and the general fact there are beings with good intentions around in general..
>
> it must be some conbination of my own feelings of fear and lostness with no way to turn to, also the horrror of any being faced with real fear, of dying or otherwise, while being alone or feeling alone..
> the pain, all that pain of frightening and violent deaths, but mostly the fear in eyes looking for compassion and reassurance..
>
> not clear what it represents for me, but definitely a deep feeling, am crying while writing..
> have stopped reading the book to cry, must continue.
>
> these feelings of course also connect to my mom’s actual situation and her vulnerability in her current state.
>
> sounds silly, but wish I had a magic wand to ban all fear and pain out of the world.
> what does that mean in my own primal context?
> to be continued I guess..
> M
Margaret: Sadly, fear does have it’s purpose. To quote Barry:- when you see the Lion you run for fear of your life (unlike the little girl that want to die anyway). It would be nice if it could be minimized … even sadness, and yep anger also … but they do have their purpose.
Just being able to appropriately express them is for me, the greatest.
Jack
Glad you were able to have that cry, Margaret.
> I think I have less of a problem with the natural kinds of fear, of the prey being caught by the predator, usually a fast kill and the prey quickly going into a state of shock.
> it is the kind of unnecessary and terefor cruel kind of fear, like of a caged animal or imprisoned victim being helpless and scared and defenseless, dependant of the goodwill of the ‘stronger’ ones in charge…
>
> also the utter loneliness of being in that position, the not understanding and feeling of being alone in a hostile threatening world without understanding why and what the cause is, desperately hoping someone will notice there is fear but no bad intentions, on the contrary, huge need for comfort and consolation… and reassurance..
>
> definitely an old feeling I recognize in the mental state of the lion in the story and in the eyes of any caged and fearful animal..
>
> might have to do with the weeks I had to stay in a strange institution at the age of about two, while mom had to have a serious operation and dad had to work…
>
> or maybe there is more, linked with fear of dying and being on my own and feeling unable to cope with the problem or threat…
>
> it does not matter, fact is the feeling is there, and there is no easy way to process and express fear.
> it is a painful process of doing stuff in spite of being scared and having it come up bit by painful bit, like how do you express silent terror and fear, sittting in a corner as a small child, surrounded by strangers who don’t look kind or helpful, and not knowing what or why ? the safe world falling apart, which also goes for almost not making it at birth really.
>
> it is not as simple as expressing it, Jack, getting acccess to it is the hard part.
>
> getting access to it in a deeper way than having to function with the ever present anxiety of it in daily life..
>
>
> and what I meant is if I would have been the creator so many believe in, I would have never allowed the degree of fear and pain that exists in this world.
> the function of fear and ‘ouch’ can still be there with a bit less intensity and cruelty.
> but well, no creator and certainly me not being one.
>
> i am afraid man is the species inflicting most of the world’s suffering of today, in many many ways, to its own species, with the bio-industry and with the general lack of respect for the planet and its variety of life forms.
>
> makes me sad, but I will never give up hope as who gives up hope gives up the fight to make things better..
> M
Margaret: quote:- “Jack, getting acccess to it is the hard part.” I’ll grant that, BUT it is not impossible … to express …in-spite of the earlier repression.
I also grant that we are the most ‘fucked-up’ of all the other creatures … wars and killing one another, as well as all the other cruelties.
Wishing for a ‘magic wand’ and/or “being the creator” is also a bit forlorn. However, just to repeat myself … AGAIN … lest there might be just one or two that see my point …. It’s MONEY and all the trapping that followed from that, that has (in my view) created the most agregious of it all.
For what it’s worth, I feel, (sure! I could be mis-informed, as you have stated), that the abolition of money would eliminate 95% of all our problems and EVEN (IMO) eliminate the very nature of ‘NEUROSIS’. But then that just ‘the mis-informed’ me.
Jack
A dragon fly flew into the house of friends. They tried ever so carefully and gently to catch it to release it. Over and over it flew against the windows and behind the drapes. Finally they caught it and put it out on the backyard table, giving it its freedom. Watching it from inside the house, it seemed to be resting briefly when a bird swooped down and took it.
I think of all species ours has the greatest capacity for empathy and caring.
Larry: I sure wish you were right, but all the wars and insane killings of other humans and rape and all the other non empathetic actions … I’d put m bet on elephants, horses, cats and dogs.
Jack
Sucks about that lion, even tho it is just a story., sad. although then he would be released from his cage. men and their tools and guns and spears and knives and cages and rules and general rudeness make me vomit.
glad to hear about your cry, margaret. deep. i wave my hands magically from time to time, to stop the shit in the world. nope. hasn’t worked yet. maybe next time i i try it, it will work.
i should go buy some crickets and release them again. I feel so bad that they sell them to feed reptiles. my kid had a bearded dragon when he was young, in a small glass cage in the dark in the mountains. I was too much of a wuss to stop him from getting that animal and keeping it caged like that. it was all about keeping him busy, move him away from drugs. He had a job at an aquarium store before we went to the mountains. none of our efforts kept him from getting drugs because his pain was entrenched. well i was not going to say much more tonight, and now i have wandered into more of my old shitload of misery.goodnight.
Yes Daniel that is correct but whatever you do just don’t forget the password ( it rhymes with folks!). 🙂 (((Gretch )))
Gretchen: I laughed so loud I woke my Jimbo up. However, I thought I was the only one that was allowed to do the “pokes”. SO!!! … be careful, you are breaking that radio silence and those boogey men will after you.
Talking about boogey men, when I was a kid I just knew they were under my bed. I take it now they moved.
Jack
> Patrick,
> I am not sure why you adress me about this, maybe you do want me honest feedback, in that case I will give it to you.
>
> my opinion is that either you are trying to play games with us manipulating us into some struggle, but the other option is you seem to be sliding further into some kind of paranoid psychosis.
>
> it is funny you use the words hatred and absurd in your last sentence, it might be some kind of projection of your inner feelings, not analizing, just searching to understand how your view of reality is organizing itself.
>
> i still suspect or hope part of you is sane enough to know these theories are pretty unrealistic, if only for the sheer practical impossibility to keep such an international fake bloody theatre from being exposed as a fraud..
>
> i think you should be careful if you are just playing around with those ideas that your ‘front’, ‘game’, outwards face does not become your reality.
>
> reread what you wrote, and try to see the strangeness of your views, is all I can say.
>
> it also seems somewhat autodestructive to come up with such outrageously crazy views, like you want to alienate yourself from the whole world, except maybe a small marginal group you used to mock yourself not so many years ago.
>
> if this is a way to get attention, you are playing a dangerous game in my opinion, you might lose touch more and more with who you really are and specially with the sane majority of people.
> meant to be helpful, M
Thanks Margaret that feels genuine I don’t have a problem it’s clearly what you think and feel about it/me. To say a little more about it and I still have not delved so much into it (busy) but so far to me this is about the worst one of these ‘fakes’ in the sense it is so transparent.
I have driven some trucks like this one and they are not that manouverable the point being how can a truck supposedly over a distance of more than one kilometer just mow down people like that. Whatever happened of getting out of the way?!. Don’t you think as the first people go down there is total terror and people run like hell. And they had places to run to like um…………out of the way!. I hesitate to go on now about it I am trying to apply ‘logic’ to a nonsense bullshit story. To keep it simple where is the blood on the front of the truck? It has just mowed down 84 people and one would assume badly injured maybe hundreds more and at the end of all that you have a nice clean white front not a trace of blood. I would conclude NOBODY ‘died’ in this one as Kollerstrom says the trend now is ‘no deaths’ that way no pesky ‘relatives’ to sue and bother the authorites ever after. This way this thing can and will be ‘gone’ from the news in a week but the impression remains of course
The impression we are all in danger, we need more ‘security’ which means more surveillance and snooping, more ‘terror laws’ more police with more guns on the street and all because ANY random person at any time can ‘go off’ It can happen in night clubs, airports, train stations and now big trucks. That one they had missed up to now. Of course one again he is a ‘crazy Muslim’ and a ‘loner’ too any ‘loner’ is dangerous he might be thinking for himself people like that need more surveillance. The Muslim meme is a given, ISIS did it blah blah blah. Remember again ISIS stands for “Israeli Security Infiltration Services” (see previous)
I am sure that Gretchen and Daniel see ‘anti semitism’ here from me of course. Well it annoys me very much to see a whole huge swath of people being demonized like this and done by a bunch of liars. They did it before with the Germans and very successfully too even the Germans mostly have just taken it and swallowed it all but it all just a big lie. Human gas chambers never existed, neither is loner crazy Muslims every other week now going off…………..it’s all lies. Hard to believe I know but all you have to do is do a bit of homework, think for yourself and try to stop lying to yourself
I better stop this is such nonsense it is a waste of time even trying to counter it. Here is a nice take though on the fact there was no blood on the truck, you will say ‘fake blood’ on the street but what about the truck
http://www.tomatobubble.com/nice_france_terror_hoax.html
“Margaret: quote:- “Jack, getting acccess to it is the hard part.” I’ll grant that, BUT it is not impossible … to express …in-spite of the earlier repression.” If you talking about access to the old feeling/pain, I like a comment that i heard on youtube by dr. janov given in an interview at some event where he was “hawking” one of his latest books. And it is late and i am tired and i dont have the correct words, but it was something about “just knowing how to talk to that brain” i think it was in reference to the emotional brain or the limbic one or something like that. this is why i dont tell many jokes, they fall pretty flat. I guess, in essence, pt might be knowing how to talk to that brain to get the pain to come out of hiding. if i heard it right. thank j that music talks to my brain pain. thanks bb for the encouragement in that arena.
That’s a good description of what happens. On Friday evening I was watching “the Finest Hours”, the movie about the true story of a small coast guard crew who in the midst of one of the most violent storms on the US northeast sea board risked their lives to rescue 32 men off an oil tanker that broke in two. My rational brain suspended itself and let my feeling brain get more and more caught up in the character development, the sense of community, the friendships, the camaraderie, the love relationships, the losses of loved ones, the sense of duty, the sense of leadership, and the willingness to risk great discomfort and one’s life to save others. My rational brain was aware of what was unfolding in me as I watched the movie, saw the signs in me that meant a feeling was about to be unleashed…the tearing up, the upwelling need to sob….connected to related memories coming to the fore, and my rational brain let and watched myself fall into my deepest feeling yet about death and helplessness and losing my wife to cancer, as I played the last segment of the movie over and over a few times.
It’s a sad day as my vacation is over and we will be leaving for the airport. My father in-law says I should stay and he will teach me to work his land. This comment was made jokingly but the idea has attraction for me. That would be something different for me to do. I am treated very well here and am always sad to leave. I bonded real well with my niece and nephew and won’t see them for another year. I should return in December in time to pick the olives
Phil
Did you speak in Spanish to your father-in-law, Phil?
One more on this, this video shows the picture that reminded me of the Crusifiction and the kind of weird ‘porno’ aspect (maybe just in my ‘dirty’ mind). I mean how are we supposed to think this is ‘real’ no injuries just a dash of ‘blood’ on the ground next to him and many more the same if you care to look. To me there is a Zionist/Jewish ‘feel’ to this…………..mock Christianity, stuff these lies down their stupid throats, even ‘mock’ them by doing it so badly but most of the sheeple or what some people now call ‘sleeple’ fall for it. Or is it the ‘sleeple sheeple’ the ‘sleeping sheep’ that’s a pretty low level to have reached in terms of awareness of what is going on in front of our eyes (if only we would open them and LOOK!)
Honestly, it seems you are pulling the wool over your eyes, Patrick.
Patrick: all this hoax stuff seems to me that you have finally found someone, or group to blame for your own misery and bitterness.
The real sadness is that even after finding someone/group to blame you are no more happy, or less bitter.
It all started when you blamed me for your anger/hurt or whatever. Since that did not get what you needed, then you sought out to find an alternative. I’ve suggested to you many times … just OWN your feelings … they belong to you. The blame game EFFECTS nothing for you, me or anyone else.
Ask yourself:- are you any the more, even just content????? It doesn’t seem like it … but who knows??????
Jack
> Phil,
> hope you have an ok trip home.
> yes, I can relate to being taken in by the Spanish way of life.
> maybe a good option for after your retirement, pass at least some months of the year over there or even more?
>
> Patrick,
> how do you explain a hoax on that scale in fromt of a crowd of ten thousands of people all being there for the fireworks?
> all part of the conspiracy probably, or all sleepwalkers.
> for your own reasons you seem to need to cling to this conspiracy option.
> curious if you would still do so if there would be a terrorist attack in Ireland and you could ‘investigate’ more closely..
> but well, everyone his opinion…
> M
I agree with Margaret that you Patrick need professional help. Nobody on this blog can take your points seriously because frankly they are not. The words and sentences and paragraphs you construct do not carry the signs of truth, or ‘homework’ or ‘thinking for yourself’, but do contain the hallmarks of paranoia.
Adult minds can usually integrate, combining the elements of reality into a whole. Paranoids on the other hand cannot. They pick up one or two elements (no blood on the truck; no mention of genocide in Nazi Enigma dispatches; he looks at me funny) and construct their whole from this tiny element (Nice was a hoax; Holocaust never happened; he’s out to get me).
For this to work they need to disregard all other elements of reality that might interfere with their newly constructed picture of things (numerous eyewitness testimonies and hospital and police reports; testimonies and documents of genocide of all kinds; yesterday he was nice to me and his words were not threatening).
And since the paranoid whole is made up from only one or two elements thus evacuating reality of the rest of its features, the bulk of it is replenished with elements from the inside, mostly aggressive and fearful in nature. That process of evacuation and then projection makes the paranoiac’s whole seem to a bystander to be distorted beyond recognition.
Since he can’t sell it and people won’t buy it the paranoiac’s experience is tragically one of solitude and torment.
This is really sad.
Daniel – you make some interesting points there. And I appreciate your calmness and the fact you don’t ‘freak out’ at some mention of ‘holocaust doubt’ or whatever…………still the overall feeling I have you is you sort of are trying to make some kind of ‘global’ statement about my personality or a paranoic personality that is ‘valid’ all across the board. This I don’t think is possible and your ‘diagnosis’ of some tragic consequence of “solitude and torment” for me at least I don’t fits at all.
It’s very much just a matter or a point of view I would say like I have been in the UK meeting up with Dr Kollerstrom and later now with some ‘chemtrails’ activists kind of people and I don’t feel ‘alone’ at all. Or I don’t find it so ‘sad’ at all………….if anything I feel the opposite meaning there are quite a bunch of people who feel like me and the number seems to be growing. Maybe a small minority still but to me a more lively and vibrant ‘minority’ than the kind of standard thinking majority. The majority would be most all of the kind of ‘standard’ outlets here say the BBC or the Guardian not to mention the ‘gutter press’ so called on in the US say the NY Times and to me now a lot of the time it is so ‘uniform’ and well just so wrong
To me we have based the whole post WW2 world on ‘war atrocity propoganda’ including the holocaust and it has led us to the world we have today – permanent war, official lying and propoganda and it is well past time for a change. I am not ‘attacking’ Jews more asking them to be open to all this and not just bunker or hunker down in this kind of group think, Daniel you could even be a ‘self hating Jew’…………what a weird phrase that is anyone who thinks outside the group is ‘self hating’ well not necessarily. I had thought for example Gretchen would be more ‘open’ to all this and who knows maybe things move slowly but I was not encouraged by her initial response that Kollerstrom was an ‘imbecile’ and a ‘moron’ I have met the man now and I see no reason to go anywhere near her view.
Daniel – to just take the 2 examples you yourself gave of ‘no blood on the truck in Nice, or no mention of any killing program let alone a ‘gassing’ program in the Enigma dispatches’ I wonder how YOU would explain that leaving out any putative ‘paranoiac’ for the moment. Don’t you think they need explanation? and that’s just for starters
If you want to go further and have to lot a lot more ‘explaining’ consider some of this
Quote:- “If you want to go further and have to lot a lot more ‘explaining’ consider some of this”.
Patrick: YOU are the one that needs to a lot, lot, lot more explaining. Start with your ranting and raving throughout the time you have been on this blog. Then continue with explaining why you asked the question “what’s the point” with your first three week therapist. Then what it is that got you a thinking that there are so many hoax out there ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE AS TO WHY NO-ONE HAS BLOWN THE WHISTLE.
And it goes on and on and on and yet YOU NEVER EXPLAIN any of this. Merely grumpily carry on with OUTRAGEOUS (conspiracies) theories. Yet seemingly are unable to explain ANYTHING even Primal theory that you have been at least involved with, for over 35 years … to the extent that you are totally unable to even consider leaving this PRIMAL THERAPY blog.
So many have tried to help you YET somehow it eludes you. But other loose theories (conspiracies) seem to take on a significant proportion of your life.
Jack
I am tentatively excited. My nephew and I have decided to take a trip on our own, leaving my Jimbo and his wife behind. Hopefully a week this coming Tuesday.
I’m exited because first I’ll be with my best Primal buddy, second I will be seeing and staying with his sister, my niece in Cornwall, afterwards we will travel north and potentially pick up my sisters and then go and scatter my brother ashes where he said he’d like them scattered on the Penine moors. That could be the last time I see either or both of them
Afterwards we’ll take a trip to view a property that he is interested about, in the North of England. Then it’s all just what we both chose to do before returning back to the US.
There are some potential risks:- Who knows: maybe Israel, Iran, China, the Irish, OR, the weather, will down our aeroplane in flight over the Atlantic, and I doubt I’d be able to swim back to land.
There’s also the possibility that I will get struck with lightening or some such other natural catastrophic incident, BUT … non of this is dimming my current excitement. I remember such feeling when I was a kid, going to Christmas parties or to some other friends birthday party. It’s a great feeling and doesn’t come up too often these days: So! I am relishing it for as long as I can.
I will be taking my lap-top with me, so (hopefully) I will be able to keep a check on all you guys while I am over there. 😦 😦 . The other good thing is they speak English there (or least-ways did last time I went) cos I am a bit on the ‘dopey side’, when it come to other languages.
Jack
That sounds exciting Jack.
A way to try to learn English is by watching Masterpiece Theatre on Prairie Public Television. I’ve been doing that for a while and am starting to understand what they are saying.
Larry: :O 🙂 :0 🙂 :0 🙂 Yep, I tried that one, but I think I’m way too dopey and I hated it. All those houses with those chandeliers and all those long dining table and the dresses that they all dress up in, even the hair do’s drove me crazy. Jim loves them. We sit on the floor and hold hands and he puts the head phones on and I try hard not to look at the screen.
He claims he of nobility and should be living like that, BUT I dragged him into the gutter. I said well!!! once you’re in the gutter there’s no further to fall, no-one to impress and everyone leaves you alone.
Meantime I’m still excited … but nothing set in stone as yet.
Jack
Sounds great for you to enjoy that special trip Jack!
Bon voyage!!
L
Leslie: Thanks; and I’m still excited about it all, even though there are now threats that some countries are suspending flights. So far not the Uk … yet!!!!
We now have tickets to fly off this next Friday arriving Saturday. The only ‘side’ effect is that flying east, jet lag is apparently more disturbing, but if that arises we can sleep a few hours after landing in some motel, then get off to Cornwall to see my Niece and her family
It’ll be sad scattering my bothers ashes … but that I feel will bring closure. Now there’ll just be three of us, out of the original four.
But if I can make my lap-top work, I should be still connecting with you guys. Give my best wishes to Barry, your hubby. .
Jack
So glad you are making the trip Jack… amazing!! the U.K. is very warm currently..
Enjoy-
Jo: Hey that’s good to know I was wondering if I might have to buy an overcoat and I’ve already packed three sweaters. I’m getting even more excited. I love that feeling and hope it lasts and sure hope this time the UK lives up to a better reputations than last time. However it’s more to do with seeing family and my brother’s ashes scattering than anything else.
Will keep you all informed if I can make my laptop work on the English electrical system.2 billion volt and up. 🙂 .
Jack
Patrick, seen any good movies lately?
Otto – no actually I havn’t. For some reason my movie going such as it is and it gets less all the time I only do in the Winter for some reason. “Better” movies in the Winter I don’t really check but in the Summer it seems to all these kind of teenager block busters repeaters kind of things that never interested me. Even at the time I did not see “ET” for example or a lot of the Star Wars movies and have still not seen them. I was always a bit too ‘serious’ for that kind of stuff and I suppose in many ways still am (the same person)
Also too ‘serious’ means and meant the inability to just have fun or whatever. You might be implying of course that I need to ‘get out more’ and see a few movies and then I might lighten up on the ‘conspiracies’ and that’s an interesting point. Maybe the kind of ‘kicks’ I get from what I at least feel like is ‘uncovering’ these fake terror plots others get from watching movies or some of those kind of “Breaking Bad” TV kinds of things. And someone somewhere has commented on this too like the ‘thrills’ people get from horror movies etc they can deal with but sort of don’t want to look at all about how this kind of ‘horror’ or ‘deception’ can be being played on them ‘for real’ in for example these events in Nice or Orlando or the earlier ones in France and Belgium.
I think you have something there (if you are even saying that)………I remember once as children my brother who was a bit over 1 year older than me saying anything on the radio (we did not have TV yet) that was not either news or sports he thought was a ‘waste of time’. I also remember at the time thinking I did not fully agree with him I thought music should be added to that. But that was about as far as I was prepared to go lol! So it’s interesting so many of the ‘habits’ or whatever word you want to use that are laid down as children just LASTS and lasts!!. But to me there is almost no point in trying to change that (though I have and a lot) because in the end I can only be myself. And I realize more and more the only way of being really ‘attractive’ is by being one self. But if oneself is just a boring news and sports junkie that still kind of a problem………….anyway I still like the news and the sports and the music but I don’t still go for all these TV dramas or ‘summer movies’ or whatever.
Probably more than you want to know but I suppose the short answer is I find ‘real life’ gripping enough I don’t feel to need to embellish it any more by seeing ‘horror movies’ or whatever……..
> Larry,
> isn’t it amazing how once we are opening up to a feeling, if we allow it, such a variety of triggers can help us to let it come up.
> it sounds like that movie really did the trick.
> it must have been painful and a relief at the same time.
>
> i think death is in the back of my mind a lot these days, and the pain of having to say goodbye bit by bit and remain more alone still..
> M
Well Margaret, I knew I was on the verge of a feeling because I felt so weighed down and listless, so exhausted and disinterested in doing anything but passively losing myself for a while in a movie. Or when I’m in that very lethargic state, which I frequently am, it doesn’t have to be a movie, it can be a series of youtube videos or songs or even a book that I just lose myself in to escape my life for a while and just let my muse follow from one to another and bingo some movie or video or song or book surprises me by touching and opening wide a feeling that’s been lingering just below the surface and draining the life out of me. And yes, before the day of the feeling, for a while heavy thoughts brew in the background of my mind, usually about need, loss and aloneness. The good thing is, after the feeling more and more life feels magical and majestic and I want to make the most of it and I know that with this therapy I have a chance to find a way forward. But pain, death and loss are real and nothing can protect us from it, and I think pain and loss can sometimes feel too overwhelming to want to carry on.
Alone, driving a Ford F350 diesel truck the 3.5 hours west back home on Tuesday evening from a long hot day of field work, towing a trailer carrying a tractor and rotavator along a one lane highway across the serene moonlit prairie, with lightning and dramatic thunderclouds and tornado warnings 100 kilometers or 60 miles to the south, in the expansive dynamic landscape under the timeless celestial backdrop I found myself contemplating the long view of life, and it occurred to me and for some reason seemed like a revelation that almost all of the older generation of relatives who had such an impact on me while I was growing up and who at one time or other looked up at these same moon and stars, are gone. Those relatives of mine to whom in my young mind I bowed in deference to their age, ‘wisdom’ and power no longer exist. Their generation is deceased. The atoms that constituted those individuals once full of life are scattered hither and yon. As are my wife’s. Their time ran out and their entities are now nothing as if they never were; whereas I get to still be here for a little while longer hopefully. Somehow that insight felt freeing, as if the absorption of the reality of the inevitable winding down of their time was impetus for me to move on and continue living as best I can during what remains of my time. Mine will run out like theirs did, but that I am still here and for now and a short while into the future I get to experience the wonder of life in this time of it’s evolution on this planet in this phase of this Milky Way galaxy etc. etc. felt like a brief precious gift to make the most of.
> just called mom, and today she sounded much more cheerful than yesterday, and she had had a good time with some people in the cafeteria.
> it is striking how her being ok lifts up my mood, seems to take a load of worry off my shoulders.
> I guess some form of symbiosis is inevitable with a person you care about and who is in a difficult situation.
>
> talking about it being much better she could spend time with friends than being on her own, she said I probably knew that as well.
> I acknowledged I felt too much alone lately and looked forward to travelling to L.A> soon and being with more friends for a while.
> she really encouraged me to do so, it was simply a very nice conversation.
> it is nice that even with occcasional steps backwards she still seems to be adjusting overall.
> we agreed with the director to keep her personal insurance next to the insurance they get from the home, so in case she would wander out and have or cause an accident they would not be addressed for the responsibility.
>
> so far she did not put one foot on the street on her own though, they always managed to catch her the few times she did try to leave.
> now she seems to find ways to have a good time there, with the activities, or in the cafetaria or in the large garden, or even in her room, she enjoys getting meals put in front of her several times a day, she gets a lot of phone calls and regular visits.
> her medication seems to be administrated in the right way now, so fingers crossed it works out well.
>
> we are all concerned, my brother and halfsister keep each other posted, when we call, about how she is, without words there is an understanding it helps us all specially to get good news and to remain in touch.
> will go visit tuesday with sister, which is usually nice, she is patient and has a good sense of humor.
> should be one nice summer day then, so we can go out into the garden and take mom’s ‘friend’ Niske with us, take some drinks and enjoy the nice weather and the huge beautiful trees there and the company. hopefully.
> M
I am watching the Bourne Supremacy for the millionth time, because that is all there is on cable. The real conspiracy is that cable and regular tv only give you a few movies that they play over and over. Then the 2 big cable companies merge, and who knows what will happen. The real conspiracy is that i have so much fat in my veins that i can barely use a mouse anymore. So the cable company designs a website (probably Chinese programmers) that shows the cable shows on your computer, but the design is so bad, you have to use the mouse to change channels and it is almost impossible for me to do so. So i am thinking that this conspiracy has been put together by GenX, GenZ, millenials and whoever the fuck are all those young people, to get rid of us old codgers by driving us nuts. And of course, soon the Obama death panels are going to kick in. I caught a glimpse of an extremely violent movie on Showtime the other day, almost to the same standards as a snuff film. It is a fucking conspiracy that they are allowed to play this filth to our young kids. It is a conspiracy (but probably an unconcious one) that designers design whore clothes for girls ages 7-18, and it is a conspiracy that their brain-dead parents let them wear those whore pants. Don’t get me wrong, whores are just another down-trodden part of society, and I have nothing against them, and frankly, I feel bad about using the word whore, which has such a negative meaning. Rant rant rant, that is what some of us disgruntled, angry old men do. Just some of us.
Patrick,
First of all, one needs to be an expert to analyze vehicle-pedestrian collisions. I for sure am not one. And neither are you nor that guy you linked to who calls himself “an investigative journalist” but doesn’t display any investigative standards, nor any responsibility or accountability.
Not being an expert should instill some modesty when approaching the subject, but that doesn’t stop you or him or Mr. K to pretentiously declare what that collision scene is or should be.
This guy on the other hand is a real professional and if you’ll consult his article you might find a possible reason for why when a flat-front truck (no lower bumper or hood) hits a person it leaves little or no blood on the truck itself. And besides, who told you there are no blood signs on the truck? All images available online are from a distance and show mostly that the front body piece of the truck is missing.
The flimsy “evidence” you and the people you refer to bring to attention looks like, feels like and is something you fit into preexisting ideas of hoaxes/fakery/Jews/Israel. I mean you approach the matter equipped not with the professional tools of the trade and an inquisitive mind but rather with an ideological agenda, so this “evidence” of yours only serves as an extra in that elaborate preexisting ideological argument.
Regarding the Enigma dispatches not referring to gassing or mass murders – I have no idea if they refer to it or not. And, if not I have no idea why. There could be many explanations for this. But, this is just one detail out of many. You may know that news of what’s happening in the east became known to the British as early as 1941, before the death camps were gassing and burning people. As a matter of fact, the scant news available to the British (perhaps from Enigma dispatches) were so distressing to Churchill that he put them in a speech in August 1941, announcing to the world that Jews in “whole districts are being exterminated,” adding, “We are in the presence of a crime without a name.”
And then there were couriers, and people escaping from Poland who reported on what was going on. But still, the full extent of it became clearer only after the war has ended. There were the soldiers who arrived at the camps, some of whom were severely traumatized by what they met there, and then the survivors gave testimonies, and later on the perpetrators, and then a whole lot of documents were discovered and studied. And later still, after the iron curtain was lifted much more information became available from the archives in the eastern bloc. And research continues to this day, by the way some of the most interesting of which is from German researchers.
We’ve been here before Patrick and I hope you understand why I as a Jew cannot accept such a denial of history. I personally know people who were in those camps; one that comes to mind right now is Mo Alter whose daughter was a friend of mine all through my childhood. Mo was deported with his entire family to Auschwitz from the Lodz Ghetto. Upon arrival he and his brother-in-law were selected for work and sent to the right. The others in his family were sent left by the camp doctors. They were never seen again because couple of hours later they were all dead. They were his father, his mother, his brother, his two sisters, his grandmother, his wife and three children. All vanished into thin air. They were never listed as arrivals at the camp because those selected to die – which were most arrivals – didn’t need to be registered. They were considered dead already.
Just take all the deportation lists to Auschwitz (for example) and subtract from them all those who were admitted to the work camp and registered. What happened to the rest? Why weren’t they registered? Not one of them survived. And it wasn’t typhoid that killed them because that was in the work camp (populated with those registered) and it takes time to die from typhoid. No, within a few hours of arrival they were all gone, deliberately exterminated.
In a way you’re right – this is so hard to comprehend, so unbearable to accept. Nevertheless, the evidence is overwhelming. So I’ll just leave you with testimony by Franz Suchomehl, a German stationed in Treblinka, the place where a woman’s hair was worth more than the woman. Suchomehl was interviewed and secretly videotaped. His descriptions and experiences are first hand.
Daniel – I watched some of this, I find it ‘hard’ hard in that what I understand about Treblinka would throw more than serious doubt on this ‘interview’ Isn’t the guy doing it Claude Lantzman I mean this guy is a movie maker and a ‘story teller’. The whole way even this interview itself is done has a very ‘deceptive’ feel about it he is re-assuring the guy his name will not be used but then he is using his name. And the swinging antenna on the roof of the van…………cheesy in the extreme! Who knows who this ‘German’ is could be an ‘actor’ himself could be just about anyone or anything this for sure is not ‘history’ it is at best ‘drama’ and ‘story telling’ It annoys me actually more and more stories with little or no regard as to truth. One small example struck me a mother with her daughter on this train slashed her daughters wrists and then her own…………this seems very unlikely to me like is this supposed to have happened? to me this is a whole industry of ‘story telling’ like I said I find very annoying there is tons of that kind of stuff out there and really is mostly ’emotional manipulation’ in my opinion
It is interesting though (to me at least) all these recent ‘terror events’ have a very similar feel to them. Like in Brussels the one that scared Margaret for a few days bfore it vanished down the memory hole has anyone heard anything more about it? (and I did say to her at the time just prepare for the next one well we have had Orlando and Nice to name just 2 big ones and I am pretty sure there will be more it about time Germany was hit with one of those and maybe even poor little Ireland has one coming up if they step out of line which as ‘good boys’ they rarely do) and supposedly there were heads and arms being blown off in the Airport, heads rolling on the floor arms flying off in the air……………were they really? The 2 bombers blew themselves to bits so much they just ‘disappeard’ poof!……..gone! The 4 London 7/7 ‘bombers’ the same thing gone up in smoke you might say. All of this has some kind of appearance of truth if you don’t think about it very much but it hardly passes any serious muster imo. This I find more than annoying like perpetrating that kind of deception on the pubic is not cool and it has many nasty consequences. And I hate to say this but Jewish people seem to be central to establishing these deceptions as truth. The ‘war on terror’ and all these kinds of things are massive deceptions and from the beginning (9/11) Israelis, Zionists, Jews whatever word you want to use are central to this whole agenda. To me they are ‘blackening’ the name of all Muslims just as they have previously and very succesfully done the same with all “Germans” I don’t like it at all
The only one doing any “blackening” is you. The only one demonizing a “whole huge swath of people” (Jews) is you. Meantime, in the real world most world leaders try not to blame all Muslims, try to draw a sharp distinction between radical Islam and the rest of Islam, and security forces base their conclusions on facts rather than a political agenda. That is why it’s sometimes radical Muslims, sometimes a Timothy McVeigh, sometimes racial bigots, sometimes those avenging police shootings. And by the way, acquitting radical Islam of all blame is ludicrous (they are the first to say so themselves).
And shame on you for not believing the Lanzman documentary interview with Franz Suchomehl. Suchomehl is no actor. He was tried in the so-called Treblinka trials in Germany in the 1960’s and was sentenced to 7 years in prison of which he served 4. But these are facts, why bother with these. Have you ever looked into any of the evidence in that trial? Or do you suppose you know better than those German judges who examined the evidence and ruled according to it. We have that trial, we have Suchomehl’s testimony, we have survivors’ testimonies, we have testimonies from people in nearby villages, and surprise-surprise they mostly fit and corroborate each other.
And by the way, Suchomehl’s testimony is so much more reliable than Mr. K’s in that video you again posted against Gretchen’s explicit requests. As any professional investigator or judge will tell you Mr. K’s body language, with the constant nervous eyes twitching and right shoulder jerking, betrays extremely unreliable speech (assuming he is not ill).
For you everybody lies, except of course the liars themselves.
For me the matter is closed and I do not wish to discuss it further with you.
Trials about this matter in Germany mean nothing, if the accused was to ‘deny the holocaust’ in court that ITSELF is a serious crime! and WILL lead to much more trouble even the accused’s lawyer will get into big trouble. Is that the kind of ‘justice’ you depend on. The original Nurenburg trials were based on TORTURE, the commander of Auschwitz had his testicles crushed I wonder why? Why on earth would that be necessary? Rhetorical question the reason is obvious it was to perpetrate a bit LIE
As far as what this guy done and said after who knows why. Maybe Lantzman gave him a lot of money………..I would not be surprised Lantzman is a fantasist and a ‘story teller’ and usually a Jewish ‘story teller’ means a liar sad to say
Your diagnosis of Dr K is pretty sloppy like your ‘diagnoses’ of me as a ‘paranoiac’ sloppy sloppy and weak………….I wonder and worry a bit about Dr K’s health. He does seem to be under stress but for someone like him to be as brave and as ‘out there’ as he is he will for sure be put under massive stress by the ever vigilant (against the truth) Zionists. For sure they make him pay one way or another. Nothing to do with telling lies Dr Daniel……….Dr K is NOT about lies though his adversaries are big time.
Almost ALL of these events have as a perpetrator a “Muslim nut case” that is very much the point and it is the case all the way from Orlando to Brussels, Paris and Nice. It is all being done by ISIS we are told which is very absurd until you realize what ISIS stands for. I have said before what it stands for no need to repeat.
You again display not only your hate but your ignorance as well. The Treblinka trial was held in 1964-1965. The German anti-incitement law forbidding, among other things, Holocaust denial was legislated 20 years later in 1985. It was perfectly legal at the time to raise any defense. As you may know (though I doubt it) the defense as always was that they were following orders.
I don’t think history will remember Mr. K, but if it will he will go down in it either as a deranged or as a despicable man (probably both), and you associating with him and reciting ‘your master’s voice’ in some twisted parody of self-proclaimed ‘free thinking’ puts you on the darkest side of the human street on the road to hell.
It now looks like ISIS stands for “International Society of Irish Schmucks”.
Daniel your quote:= “It now looks like ISIS stands for “International Society of Irish Schmucks”.
That sounds like it might be very fitting.
Jack
Daniel – you are a master of the ‘half truth’ you know very well all the way from Nurenberg the law was seriously skewed. So they skewed it further in 1985……..big deal. Basically formalizing and tightening what was already the case. Then they would no longer need to crush a guy’s testicles what they are doing now is all legal! No need for torture anymore. In any case a disgusting situation that continues to this day. And as I mentioned before they are lobbying to make it EU wide so then what I am writing here would get me arrested. It seems you would agree with that
Meanwhile ‘the greatest lie ever told’ the holocaust is being promoted and used to brain wash young children. Treblinka – where over a million were ‘gassed’ and ‘buried’ there but when people found out the land was totally undisturbed, the ‘story’ changed to oh well they dug them all up and ‘burned’ them and threw away the ashes!! For all these ‘stories’ the ground is STILL undisturbed so the WHOLE THING is a total freaking LIE.
And basically that is why they ‘tighened’ the law as more and more contrary information started to come out………….oh well we have a ‘solution’ make it ILLEGAL to discuss and write about it. Total cover up! But like Gretchen with her 3 suicides including ‘attempts’ black is white and white is black and oh up is down. Doesn’t worry me I know a liar when I see one…………..
Quote:- “Doesn’t worry me I know a liar when I see one…………..”
I take it you look in the mirror every morning and this is where you get this superior knowledge from Yeah!!!!
Jack
Not a single thing you present here is even remotely connected with reality and it’s obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about and are not familiar with any of the subjects you so confusedly describe. What is your source for all these ideas? Whichever master’s voice you’re reciting, their ignorance is only compounded by your own to produce an intellectual and historical mayhem.
You’re probably not interested in the facts, but it’s not for you anyway.
The Nuremberg trials were military tribunals carried out right after the war by the occupying forces in Germany (Britain, US, USSR, France). The used some type newly created international law.
The Treblinka Trial, on the other hand, was in the 1960’s, initiated, investigated, prosecuted and judged in German civil courts by Germans using the German criminal law alone which has nothing to do with the laws used in Nuremberg. These German laws were from many years before WW2. The defendants were not accused of an abstract ‘Holocaust’ but mostly of murder, accessory to murder, and theft. The 1985 anti-incitement legislation is an addition to German Law and it too has nothing to do with Nuremberg and therefore cannot be its ‘tightening’ or ‘skewing’. You making a mishmash of the two legal systems shows you don’t understand and haven’t bothered to study even the rudimentary issues at hand.
I don’t wish to go into your ignorant Treblinka arguments. We’ve been there before. This is another subject you know absolutely nothing about yet constantly foaming at the mouth about it.
“Also too ‘serious’ means and meant the inability to just have fun or whatever. You might be implying of course that I need to ‘get out more’ and see a few movies and then I might lighten up on the ‘conspiracies’ and that’s an interesting point. ” Patrick, i dont mean to imply you need to get out more. Just feeble attempts at making conversation. I haven’t been out to the movies in years. Starwars is overrated, and everytime i see that ET is available on TV, I say fugitaboudit. Mr. Trump is going to steamroll Hillary, in my opinion. I am too serious and rarely have fun, except at work, when we get joking about the boss and his stupid ways.
Patrick, are you saying that music SHOULD BE or SHOULD NOT BE added to the list of the only thing good on the radio besides NEWS and SPORTS? Anyway, what time frame was your brother saying that? You only had BBC back then? I can’t stand the only BBC channel we get on Sirius, all full of horror and misery in the 3rd World. If I want misery, I just pull it out from my hoard under the bed, pull it over my head and go look in the mirror.
Otto, I was ‘lobbying’ that music should be added to the news and sports. And both of us are pretty much the same to this day on all that. Like most people now it seems watch those kind of long drawn out dramas on TV “Game of Thrones” “Breaking Bad” etc etc I can’t be bothered at all have no interest really. Like I said earlier I find the ‘news’ itself a kind of drama and now when you add the element of ‘deception’ and all these ‘false flag’ events it can get quite interesting in a very dark kind of way. People may think I go on about stuff like that too much and maybe I do but it is weirdly fascinating to me. Like I just got to Ireland a few days ago and I read the main Sunday newspaper and there is like about 8 articles about the Nice truck and while having different ‘takes’ on it they ALL accept the story as given. Totally accept it happened as they were ‘told’. I don’t at all and once your mind kind of makes that ‘switch’ well you just see things a lot differently. It can be lonely of course but it feels like the truth and there are others out there who have paved the way and these are the kind of people I ‘listen’ to along with my sports and music lol I was in England visiting my brother and he watches and listens to a lot of ‘news’ and is a kind of ‘news junkie’ and it seems to me that is a good description he ‘consumes’ whatever is put in front of him. Of course me I have always been a bit ‘different’…..
I think many of us are addicted to things to try to fill an emptiness within, and many of us are drawn towards sensationalism in the news as a way to divert us from our life problems, and being a business the news media are happy to feed us that sensationalism. There is great horrible tragedy and drama in events today as there has been for millennia, but I feel we shouldn’t let it divert us from working on healing the hollow within and improving our lives and the lives of others.
Larry: for the most part I totally agree with you. However, maybe we’ve got to work for the future of humanity and the other creatures of the world … That’s if there is indeed a future.
Jack
I think healing the present is the best way to ensure a future.
Larry: I again totally agree, but how many are there out there that know how??
It’s the reason that I suggested the abolition of money as the only hope that the greatest impediment to our total ‘instincts’ and ‘nature’ could be revived. However, just my idea for the fix.
Jack
‘what’s the feeling?’ to quote yourself is all this business about ‘abolishing money’. And keep to your FEELING (to quote yourself) and don’t you ever go ‘in your head’ about it (to quote yourself)
Larry, it looks like I can rent the Finest Hours on Amazon. Thanks for the info. Glad it brought up feelings, as painful as they must be. Maybe I will figure out why drowning means something to me. I watched a little bit of Black Sea, and as usual, when it looked like drowning time, I imagined that if I were in that situation, i would smash my head against anything I could to kill myself, rather than die from drowning.
Your welcome, Otto. I rented it from Itunes.
> phil, did you arrive home well?
> how is it being back so far?
>
> Daniel,
> it was painful reading about your friend’s family.
> that kind of horror is so inconceivable.
> i can find no other words for it.
> M
Margaret,
The trip back went well but seemed extra long for some reason.My son thought so too. We got home at 11:30 PM on Sunday and I had to work the next day It wasn’t that nice being back at work.
I am experiencing similar feelings as has happened other years in this situation. Basically alone, lonely, as my son is usually off with friends. Abandonment, and also freedom to do whatever I want when not at work. But that doesn’t really add up to anything good.
My wife still on vacation in Spain is sounding like she feels abandoned too. Maybe she’ll now have a little bit better understanding of what I go through.
On the flight back there was a father with two young children sitting near us. A boy about 4 or 5 years old and his sister, a few years older. The kids were in two seats together and the father across the aisle. I found some fascination with watching these people.
After I got home I realized the interactions maybe remind me of my own sister, although we were more than a few years apart in age. Sad feelings as I ended up abandoned by her too, and those feelings lead to one’s about my mother.
Last night I had a dream about being in Barry’s group. But it was weird therapy. We were being measured with odd devices and exposed to some kind of gas that gave a strange sensation.
One of the devices was fixing problems with my teeth by computer, I could see it happening on a screen, and when all done, I was going to easily get to all my pain and be done with it. This got interrupted unfortunately. My friend desperate for therapy, who I was talking about some months ago, was there too, but wasn’t allowed to be included in the group activities.
I gained like 7 pounds while on vacation. I really stuffed myself and that’s something else to work on now.
Phil
Phil, you should see Barry’s group on the alternate Saturdays. Even weirder! The gas you experienced was a by-product of that other group, i have no idea what they do in that group. ha. sorry could not resist. How old is your son that is usually off with other friends?
Otto,
My son is 19, so it’s normal behavior. Someone else’s house is more fun and comfortable to hang out at than our’s. What he mainly likes to do is skateboarding,
which he’s very good at. Hopefully he’ll pick up a few more useful skills.
Even while we were on vacation he found a group of friends to be with and deals
with the language better than I do..
I hope the institute occaisionally gets aired out.
Phil
> Patrick,
> what you say about Brussels makes no sense whatsoever.
> there is plenty of follow up news you could find if you wanted to, and it simply is not true either there were no remains at all from the bombers.
> not posting pictures of torn off limbs in the papers is just a rule of decency our media still have. no corpses unless sometimes they are covered, no body parts.
> if you want to see victims go to Brussels and visit the number of them still being treated for burns.
> your reasoning about the ‘proofs\ for your theories are so flawed I don’t even want to go into them.
> hard to believe you take yourself and the ones you feel are ‘with you’ seriously.
>
> all you continually base your reasoning on are feelings, intuitions and more feelings, which says it all.
> you say you always were different from your older brother, maybe it is part of the whole act out to stick to these poorly underbuilt theories which ignore all kinds of the proof of they being mistaken.
>
> i am still not sure whether all of this is you allowing yourself to act out as some kind of play for attention or to stick out in your family or whatever, or if you are so deeply sucked into it already you really ‘believe’ it all.
>
> you risk getting more and more out of touch with reality and ending up isolated in a small niche of paranoiacs and people full of hate.
>
> I remember how you used to laugh and joke about people like that, not taking them seriously, and being slightly concerned about them owning a large number of weapons.
> you referred to them as paranoid and possibly schizophrenic, and even occasionally teased them and in my opinion, and I told you if I remember it well, made it worse for one of them by increasing his paranoia, which was kind of a cruel joke.
>
> you considered warning the PI about the weapons, but now more and more you seem to be going towards that same category, paranoid and out of touch with reality.
> you never seek for proof of your opinions possibly being mistaken, ignore all of it and only come up with (weak) ‘proof’ of your own ideas.
>
> the nazis for example tried to keep their extermination plans relatively secret, only known to a limited number of people and towards the end of the war made a lot of efforts to conceal the factual evidences.
> so your lack of it being mentioned in the ‘enigma ‘ files is no proof whatsoever, there can be a million of reasons for that.
> at most it is an absence of proof on that very spot, nothing else.
>
> am tired of this, but also feel sad and concerned you seem to be going down a track that does not lead to anything good for you.
>
> this is all I can say about it all, don’t want to get into any struggle or arguments about this, have better things to do.
> M
Margaret – too much ‘tittle tattle’ there for me to bother with, It reminds me of some of your previous nonsense about stuff I was supposed to have said. Your memory is quite good but you skew things a bit not worth going into details imo
Quote:- “Your memory is quite good, but you skew things a bit not worth going into details imo”
As IF your opinion, on any matter, that you relate on this blog, was of the least importance to anyone … BUT Patrick the Griffin.
Seems YOU are ‘so right’ AND ‘the rest of us ‘are so wrong’. Seems … there’s something a little bit out of “skew” here in the upper regions of you head.
Jack
> ha, just got an e-mail I passed the exam of evolutionary psychology, hurray!!
> don’t know the score yet, but that is of secondary importance, smiley.
> M
Margaret,
Congratulations! Que buen estudiante!
Phil
Great. Congrats!
Margaret, congratulations on passing your exam! Just out of curiosity, what is evolutionary psychology?
Congratulations Margaret.
Margaret , Congrats ! G.
Otto, I sent you an email! G.
Daniel and Margaret, I think you are right to give up because there is not enough evidence or logic in the world to penetrate this particular way of thinking. In fact you may both recall from your studies something called confirmation bias. Some of that research was done on deniers and not only did evidence not impact their beliefs but to the contrary they became even more resolute . They see themselves as free thinkers, different from others but in fact they are strangely the same. There was no moon landing, AIDS is a lie, the Holocaust a conspiracy, terrorist attacks are staged by hundreds running around pouring ketchup over themselves ( interestingly none of these hundred or thousands of actors have coughed up the truth for five bucks and a magazine article, something I promise would happen as we all know). These are the flat earthers and sadly they are unreachable. Notice Daniel that when you point out first hand accounts rather than getting back any reasonable discussion you get a global hatred of all Jews. Blatant Anti Semitism Why? Because there is nothing else to be said . You can’t fight the truth so they attack with global hatred and words like faggot. They have no other ammunition. If it wasn’t Jews it would be Gays or Blacks or Hispanics. The only group not included would be the poor little Irish. This would be my worst fear personally. Muttering about how the most despised person in History is really a good ole guy and quoting the writings of known Nazis and laughing stocks, it’s sad and frankly pathetic and yes paranoid. Maybe most of all jealous. As an aside if you watch the posted videos of this sad little nazi dr k. you will find he doesn’t bother with evidence for his claims either. Somehow people are compelled to act out, to re- create the past. That can’t be penetrated with logic or reason. It can’t. Someone said, I can’t rememember who at the moment, ” genius is limited but ignorance is infinite” . Gretch
What a load of self serving rubbish! And there were only THREE according to you and that includes BOTH ‘attempted’ and ‘actual’ suicides among patients at the PI in the ’80’s. Yes indeed! I gave you 8 NAMES of people I knew personally. Oh well whose the liar here? The really funny and weird aspect of this is people here would probably say it’s me!!
Extend this outwards infinitly and you get the kind of siltuation in the world where the lies of authority and the well connected is established but not everyone is fooled. In fact it seems more and more are waking up. Is it too late………….probably.
How dare you talk about Dr K like that he has more ‘intelligence’ and truth in his little finger than you will ever achieve.
Quote:- “How dare you talk about Dr K like that he has more ‘intelligence’ and truth in his little finger than you will ever achieve.” From what I gather, that is about just where his intelligence is … in his little finger. As for truth … I never thought truth came out of little fingers … BUT what would I know??????
Wow!!!! You are sure losing it Patrick … I saw a grandmother get more and more demented and it seemed to take on a similar pattern, that I am getting here from you. Geezus !!!!!!
Jack
It seems sometimes you WANT me to ‘lose it’ you have made several references to Maggie Thatcher, Ronald Reagan etc in relation to me. I can assure you I feel fine though I understand as someone even wanders away a bit from ‘approved thinking’ one of the first weapons is they are ‘losing it’. No dude sorry to dissapoint you I feel I am going a bit saner actually. Mind yourself and make sure you are ALLOWED back in the country Homeland Security can be tricky and given your ‘record’ I dunno I would be careful. You will not have me around this time to pay your legal fees something you have never seemed to have ‘forgiven’ me for. Weird attitude and behaviour I guess you resent so much having needed my help. After all you are ‘the man’ you have it all figured out and you would like to ‘forget’ a lot in spite of all your ‘re living’………
Thanks Gretchen for that.
> Daniel,
> Tooby and Cosmides of the University of Santa Barbara were the first to come up with this term, if I remember it well in the seventies.
> but the actual field existed long before, building on Darwin, who built on his grandpa’s theories, and then James, Milton, but then there was a period in which the idea of eugenetics derailed into massive sterilization and then even ‘annihilation’ of what was considered as inferior.
> in Scandinavia and Germany and Australia and some other parts of the world tens of thousands of people were sterilized without their agreement.
>
> all that came from the wrong interpretation of Darwin’s ideas that one race might be inferior to another, which he never claimed.
> the whole idea there was a biological connection influencing our behaviour and qualities, not only culture and upbringing, became taboo for a long while, being replaced by behaviourism and the general idea of man being a blank slate at birth and culture and teaching being the only factors.
> Tooby and Cosmides refer to this as the SSSM, the standard social science model.
>
> but in the meantime biologists went on studying animal behaviour, and genetics took a big leap forwards.
> Tooby and Cosmides synthesized a lot of what was going on, putting the label on it of Evolutionary Psychology.
> Nico Tinbergen named the four main questions of approach we should always consider when we study behaviour and want to try finding out whether it has become an adaptation in the early times of homo sapiens.
> we did not evolve from monkeys but have a common ancestor , too far to go into all of it here.
> so these fourquestions are
> 1. the mechanical or proximate function, like a mother feeding a hungry baby, doing so because it cries and she has a lot of milk
>
> 2 the ontogenetic or developmental approach, she did see other mothers feed babies and after a first clumsy try gets better and better at it
>
> 3 the fylogenetic or historical question, when did mammals evolve, and why and how
> 4 the funtional or ultimate function, what is the goal, passing on her genes by bringing up a healthy child
>
>
> this area of psychology examines human behavior as to look for adaptations and explanations.
> it uses interdisciplinary findings to create as much as possible solid proof like the medical science, psychology, physiology, genetics, ethnology, looking at remaining hunter gatherers groups, comparing behaviors of other species like primates , intercultural universals and differences etc.
>
> variation and survival of the fittest, as in best adapted to actual and changing circumstances, combined with sexual selection, forms an intriguing field.
> see Fisher, Zahavi, Williams, and others.
> the parental investment, mostly relying on the female efforts in our species with the pregnancy and feeding, makes the female more choosy as to find a fit partner who will also assist her and supply food and support.
> in species where the male looks after the young it is the other way around, there males are choosy, like the little ‘seahorse’, don’t know its name in English.
>
> just another funny and interesting example is the level of promiscuity of the females.
> males have an undeniable tendency to go for more ‘loose’ encounters when presented, just spreading more of their genes, but females are not necessarily that faithful.
>
> it has been discovered over a lot of comparative studies, there is a strong link between on one hand the level of control a male has on the females, like say a gorilla having a harem of females he guards well and is the only one to breed with. in that case the difference of morphology between male and female is mostly big, males are large, females less so.
>
> then there is a species like for example chimpanzees, where the morphological difference is not so big, and females often mate with another chimp than the chief.
> in that case it is important to ensure you make the best chance still to get the female pregnant of your offspring, so the chief will always try to be the last one to mate again, and they have huge testicles, in comparison to man he would have to have three kilo balls..
> so both the size difference of the male female and the size of the testicles are a good indication of the level of tendency for promiscuity of the female.
>
> yeah, next question?
> humans are sort of in the middle, medium size smiley, a bit of promiscuity undeniably so.
> but with differences, man in general tends to go for most opportunities lowering even his level of standards a bit for casual sex, while woman if she does, usually goes for someone with a bit of a ‘higher’ level than her usual mate, man focusing most on looks, woman focusing more on power and money.
>
> this is simply a general truth, stemming from group hierarchies in the era of evolutionary adaptation,
>
> it does not mean it all has to happen, it is just a set up that can be controlled if wanted by cultural factors and upbringing and not to forget other factors like love and attachment and the risk of losing etc.
>
> another nice example is the finding pregnancy morning sickness turns out to be an adaptation of the female body to avoid certain strong foods that the adult body easily digests but that contain teratogens threatening the development of the fetus.
> large interdisciplinary studies have confirmed it is highly probable it being an adaptation and useful.
>
> there is also something called Darwinian medicine a bit of a confusing term that can iasily be misinterpreted as it is merely an addition to medical science, and adds a larger view, like they pointed out that when we have an infection, like a cold, the body reacts with fever and iron levels drop in the blood.
> what does usual medicine often do?
> give medication to lower the fever and give iron supplies.
> now the bacteria or viruses need iron to replicate themselves, and can’t stand high temperatures, so withdrawing iron from the blood and raising body temperature is adaptive, helps the body to survive.
> so medicine should make a difference between symptoms caused by the virus or bacteria which should be treated and symptoms that are a healthy response of the body defending itself.
>
> and so much more, it is an interesting and developing field, adding a new viewpoint that can certainly be useful in many ways.
>
> ps thanks for the congrats, Gretchen and blog buddies, the news did lift my spirits up when I got the e-mail, smiley
> M
Margaret, thanks for this. And Daniel might thank you as well… 🙂 It sounds fascinating, though more connected with biology than with the study of the mind, which is what I usually associate psychology with. I am not a scientist, nor will I ever will be (I’m abysmal at maths), but there are lots of areas that fascinate me, and I always appreciate it when scientists – or science students – can explain ideas in ways that make sense to me as a layperson and bring them to life. I see this get derided as “pop science”, though I don’t know why.
Interesting about how medicine often suppresses symptoms and views this as treatment. I had a similar experience to the example you describe of the treatment of infection. Years ago when I was living in LA I got addicted to the anti anxiety drug ativan for several months. This led to me suffering a huge lethargy that I didn’t initially link to the drug. Finally I did and went cold turkey – a truly horrendous experience – to quit the habit and get my strength back. During that time I was feeling massive anxiety as there was a rebound from all the time I’d been on the drug. I talked to a local Dr who prescribed me beta blockers to try and help, which just had the effect of making me feel I was going even crazier. Then I saw what was happening. The Dr thought that the way to treat my anxiety was to reduce rapid heart beat with the beta blocker. She saw the rapid heart beat as a cause of anxiety, but in fact I needed my heart to beat fast as a direct response to the anxiety (ascending primal pain). Since my body couldn’t absorb the rising terror it went more into my head which made me feel I was going even crazier. So I immediately stopped the beta blockers and the anxiety dropped away.
Glad to hear the news has lifted your spirits.
Thanks M. The study of evolutionary psychology is pretty exciting. Sounds like you’re hooked.
> before I read my tonight’s comments, some nice news I got.
> my brother opened up the envelope of the Open University containing my certificate and also a letter with my score.
> I really expected a 6, but then my brother read… a 9!!!
> I felt exhilarated, this time I really did not think it had gone that well, so many tricky and unclear questions, so well, it feels really good.
> we visited our mom and also the old house, just me and my brother, and it strongly felt like having to say goodbye to all the little old tits and tats she gathered over the years, a lot of really pretty what they refer to as ‘brocante’.
> and some nice furniture, but well we do not have that much room in our own homes to put more stuff..
>
> I did take two reasonably small items, a handbell with a very clear sound, she had several but well, I picked out one, and something to hang on the wall.
>
> my brother also found papers we need to invest as some of them seem strange, as if someone tried to set her up.
> and then we also have to sort out the hassles about insurances and papers they want us to sign for not agreeing on moving her into a ‘protected’ ward.
> we won’t sign anything before thoroughly checking it out, as part of it simply feels like pressure on us to allow them to move her to another ward so they have less work with her.
> my brother is working hard and good on all of this, it is nice we understand each other without a lot of words, today we both had a feeling of nostalgia and having to say goodbye, somewhat sad.
> mom was ok, nice but very repetitive and deaf so more repetitions still.
> we will probably buy her another hearing aid, although she keeps losing them or not using them, at least she did so in the past.
> but having to shout at her over and over about the same stuff is exhausting so it might be worth a try..
>
> ok, now am gonnna read the rest of the comments.
> Larry, I liked what you said about appreciating the experience of being here and now on this very planet in this here galaxy and seeing it for the adventure it really is.
> as a child most things are exciting, with poor eyesight it seems more difficult to get back in touch with that thrill, but luckily my visual memory is vivid and tends to fill in stuff.
> not the same, but well, that’s life too..
> M
Margaret,
That’s always nice to find out about doing much better than you thought. That’s quite an achievement, especially considering the difficulties it involves.
Phil
> ps I think I forgot to mention that gorillas, for being sure they are the sole ones mating with ‘their’ females, have tiny testicles.
> they do not need to compete with the sperm/genes from rival males.
> man is in between the chimpansees with their huge and the gorillas with the small ones.
> so the females are (in inclination) not entirely evolved to be very promiscuous but not to complete faithfulness either.
> at least that is the biological design stemming from more than 10000 bC when we lived in groups of average 20 to 50 or a bit more members, gatherer hunters.
> we started eating more and more meat when our evolving species moved out from the jungles to a more open savannah when the climate got warmer.
> it is interesting, and amazing how long ago tools were already used to some degree, and rafts made or fire, and later on controlled fire, cloths and art.
> the Neanderthal man and the other , I forgot his name, were actually pretty intelligent, and it is still not entirely clear if there has been interbreeding with the actual homo sapiens or not.
> mitochondrial evidence following back the maternal genetic lines seems to say no, but it is not sure.
> and well, some present humans seem to have some Neandethal looks sometimes, smiley, which does not need to be an insult, as i said they were pretty smart and developed and their brains had more or less a similar size to the other species of homo in those times.
> it is an interesting field of study, would not make it my field but still..
> M
I heard somewhere recently that there is now evidence for interbreeding between homo sapiens and Neanderthals.
Another fairly recent theory which piqued my interest, that there’s some evidence for, is that we evolved our larger brains when we made the change from eating raw meat to eating cooked meat. My understanding is digestion takes up more energy than any other bodily process, so when we started cooking meat it would have freed up an enormous amount of energy. And there’s some evidence I believe in the evolutionary time – line that puts a correspondence between an increase in human brain size and the move to eating cooked meat. It makes sense to me. I don’t think this means that barbeque’s increase IQ, though it’s a nice idea. 🙂
Is there any clinical application for evolutionary psychology or to you plan to move onto research?
> David, thanks, and my pleasure.
> evolutionary psychology actually tries to focus as well on mental processes.
> for example anxiety, as they see it, without looking at what they refer to as proximate or developmental causes, leaving them in their value but simply looking at them in a different way as well, they say we might be prone to have a bit of a tendency to be ‘too’ scared, as that increased our fitness to survive.
> it is like a msmoke detector, it is better to have the occasional false alarm for being too sensitive, than to risk it not going off to then be eaten by the partly hiddden tiger…
> so ears pricking up out of the high weeds, a stripy tip of a tail, aaaargh!!!
> also for depression they think of an explanation which is still speculative but makes sense.
> to feel down and depressed is often linked to being not as succesful as wished for in the hierarchic struggle for success.
> when failing and having to admit being beaten by someone, there is a temporary tendency to draw back and stay out of sight, feel down, and avoid the stronger one for a while.
> that was a useful adaptation to survive in a group with a natural pecking order as most groups have, but in today’s world, where we are bombarded with perfect role models and clips of wealthy extravagant life styles, we still live with a very slowly evolving design made up for small and intimate groups with support of kin members and reciprocation of favours within the group.
> more and more in present society these small family or village groups fall apart, and are ‘replaced’ by vast and very loose and changing groups we loosely identify with but in which we can never or rarely succeed and get the satisfaction of gaining esteem on the social ladder.
> so more feelings of loneliness and failure, unaccomplishment etc., we are not pretty, rich , succesful or smart enough to compete with all the input from the media we get, ever.
> it is an aspect that makes sense.
> there are other examples that might have more practical usefullness, but it is a field in full development and is specially interesting to find common aspects between cultures that look at first sight completely different.
> I am not very good at explaning this, sorry, but I am sure there must be good books about the subject.
> one other interesting item is the inavoidable controversy that is bound to rise when one kid, or animal baby as well, from a species that needs a lot of parental investment, reaches the age where its mother feels like starting on a new kid and that gets born.
> suddenly the first kid, who still feels the need for all the attention and food from its mom it can get, in an ultimate sense to promote its 100 percent own genes, has to deal with a parent that only shares 50 percent of her genes with him and feels like having anoterh kid with also 50 percent of her genes and so on and so on.
> so there is on that moment kind of an inbuilt struggle for a while, the first kid wanting to keep it all still, the mother wanting to diminish his share as she needs to spread it to a newcomer.
> these are just general lines which do not mean a determined way of action as there is more to us than our genotype, our complex brains allow us to control and steer our impulses and find ways to deal with situations as they arise.
>
> that is the whole idea, we seem to be evolved as to at best deal with new situations and adapt ourselves.
> M
That is why we live on every land surface on earth. No other species does.
I’m off from work today because the office is closed, doctors had to go to the airport, so I got lucky. I spent some time fooling around on the internet looking for jobs, new careers, or career training. I found something that might be of interest, becoming a patient advocate. This could make use of my knowledge and experience in healthcare. There are no rigid requirements as far as education and no professional certifications since it is a newly emerging field. There are jobs in
hospitals, companies, and it’s possible to start a business with this. I was looking at some online programs which wouldn’t require a large investment. I’m not sure if I’d like to pursue this or not but it’s encouraging to find out about it.
Phil
Sounds like progress Phil!
Phil, that is a good idea. Where I work, they have had Patient Advocates for many many years. If you like helping people directly, instead of just through testing and/or examining their bodily fluids, you will probably do well with this!
Otto,
What you say here is encouraging. I want to do something helpful and important for people. Making donuts, for example, wouldn’t do it for me. . I’m sick and tired of lab testing, I have been doing it too long and want to be done with it.
Phil
I think the examination of fungus in the study of evolution (as opposed to the bacteria or virus) is under-researched. . Fungus can get into your bones and change them. For example, when our cat first got sick years ago with cryptococcus, one of the first things we noticed was that his head had shrunk. There i said it, and I won’t take it back.
Geez! I hope I never get sick with cryptococcus.
I think it’s immune compromised people who are susceptible to cryptococcus infections, and otherwise it’s rare.
Phil
Hi Phil. I took it that Otto was taking a stab a humour when he claimed his cat’s head shrank. My reply that I hope I don’t catch it was my attempt at humour along the shrinking head theme, which obviously fell flat. I will now slink off the comedy stage, deflated.
Larry,
I missed the jokes here. But I did google the shrunken heads theme just now. They could swell if anything, so maybe it was a joke. I also did some reading on how South American tribes prepared shrunken heads. That was no joke.
Phil
Phil, BB told me long ago that I would miss the days when my youngest son was around, when he was about 12 years old. And of course, I squandered those days trying to eke out a living, but mostly because of the pain of my own lonely youth. You know what, i am not going to go into the sad details today. too hot. 107??? My failures as a dad: ce la vie, or maybe que sera sera, or maybe…FUCK ME! bad daddy. horrible daddy. oh well….I didn’t really have a daddy either. Thank god he has thrived in spite of me.
Otto, I hope my younger son will stay around for a while. But some of his friends are talking about going away to college or the armed forces and now he feels a little anxious to do that too. Like it’s what he’s supposed to do. I told him there’s no rush, that I like having him at home, but It could be a good thing for him to go away, so he should do whatever he wants. It’s hard for him because he’s quite attached to his friends and that seems to be foremost in his mind.
His older brother doesn’t look likely to end up living right around here, but hopefully at least in the northeast.
Phil
Patrick, you said “there is like about 8 articles about the Nice truck and while having different ‘takes’ on it they ALL accept the story as given. Totally accept it happened as they were ‘told’. ” I said something some other day in this blog about the ‘REAL” conspiracies. We are all lied to on a daily basis (for some reason), I am sure that the Irish grow up thinking Englishmen are evil because of what they hear from their parents and around town, and vice versa. Margaret, I am wondering, in an “evolutionary psychology” view, when did mankind start to be such fucking liars? I don’t think dogs lie, or maybe I am missing something. Also I figured out something finally, or maybe i read it somewhere. But i was walking down the street early in the morning with the dog, 2 days in a row i see this middleaged woman obviously waiting for a ride to work. And one of the days, she was on the cell phone and apparently, the ride was not coming and she scurried down the street to catch the bus probably. But my thought was, that she saw me, and that maybe she superstitiously thought that i was the reason that her ride did not come. So i postulated that this was how religion must have started. The bigger rational brain that mankind was growing the many early years of evolution, that brain needed to make sense out of things, to compartmentalize, or associate. So if lightning struck, monkeymen might wonder why, and they could literally see no actual reason for it. Thus they created an invisible “god” in their head, to fill in the spaces, to make things make sense. I am probably not explaining this well, and i actually feel like i used to when i was taking acid. so maybe J al Lennonakbar said it better, god is a concept, by which we measure our pain. I never really understood what he meant about that….And now i am looking back at what i wrote above about Lying. Lying to ourselves might actually be a physiological response that some people call neurosis. Ok i am thinking too much. good night. babble
Otto – it’s true in a way we grew up being ‘taught’ English people were evil but speaking for myself at least I did not believe it. Deep down I thought English people were wonderful smarter, cooler, and better at everything than me/us. So that kind of ‘colonialism’ can be tricky and it is I think typical of a ‘victim’ to ‘adore’ his abuser when there is no other choice to be had. ‘self hatred’ is a strong force and causes endless problems maybe that is why the Jews guard against it so much. Though personally I think they would benefit from it it might be the beginning of ‘wisdom’ for them but I have a feeling we will have WW3 and maybe the destruction of all life on this planet before that will happen. Scary!
Daniel – I will write down here as the comment gets too ‘skinny’ up there. Anyway to me you seem to have a remarkable ability to ‘elucidate’ and ‘explain’ some detail but more often than not to obscure a bigger and more important point. Often while SOUNDING ‘educated’ and ‘learned’ which can make for interesting ‘details’ the real purpose of effect seems to be to hide what is more important.
So now according to you it seems you might even be conceding Nurenburg WAS based on torture and ‘war atrocity propoganda’ of the Allies and while later (you seem to be admitting) the ‘holocaust denial laws’ make it impossible for an accused to defend himself in that his ‘defence’ will and Is a ‘crime’ itself there was a bit in the middle there for maybe 20 years or so after the war the courts were actually OK and followed ‘normal’ legal procedures. I will admit I don’t know the details of this but I suspect if you do you are as I say using it to hide and not to reveal. I think it’s better to keep to the big point and keep it simple……………the WHOLE story was a massive made up lie and it has been enforced and promoted in many many different ways. But the details as put forward by you changes nothing you have endless lies trying to establish something that never happened. Whether this is being done by crushing testicles or bogus anti holocaust discussion laws make little difference.
Why not focus on the bigger picture………….that there WAS a ‘holocaust’ in WW2 and it happened in places like Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nakasaki, Tokyo, Berlin etc etc. More people died in Dresden in one night that all Jews that died in the German labor and transit camps in the entire war. And those deaths were almost all to do with disease and starvation due to Allied bombing starving the camps of EVERYTHING and nothing to do with mythical ‘human gas chambers’. The
Allies were keen to avoid looking at that so very conveniently make a big ‘story’ to change the subject
To establish that we have the Jewish ‘story tellers’ and their tradition of exaggeration and drama mixed in with endless self pity and as always mixed in with liberal doses of LIES. All people have their traditions of course but as a ‘learned’ man maybe you could explain how some of this works in your culture. I would be a bit interested but honestly I don’t think you are the man to do it though you are a lot better than most Your ‘group loyalty’ as always holds you back and you do not want to become a ‘self hating Jew’…………..that is reserved for OTHER people it seems for example the more the Germans (or Muslims) hate themselves the more they are praised and ‘respected’. But that is the typical double standard like constantly crying about ‘racism’ while building a country (Israel) BASED on racism. With all the ‘laws’ to bring it about once you ‘disputed’ that too on these kind of narrow grounds but let’s keep it simple shall we Israel is a racist state and only getting more so everyday while encouraging the rest of the world to ‘race mix’.That kind of hypocricy is par for the course
This discussion is pointless. I do not wish to continue it.
Go on believing that thousands upon thousands of people – victims, perpetrators, judges, collaborators, standers-by, rescuers, historians- of various nationalities and religions all lie.
Go on believing that thousands upon thousands of documents all lie.
Go on deluding yourself you belong to some kind of a group of Galileos who impartialy fight for the truth rather than hateful and ignorant degenerates with too much time on their hands.
Go on do your worst. We’ll do our best.
At least it seems I won’t go to jail for it for now and hopefully forever. It in noticeable that the English speaking countries and I am thinking of the UK US and Ireland have avoided so far at least these terrible ‘laws’ against free speech and free thinking. Europe sadly is kind of a lost cause at this point at least when it comes to that. And if you think about it means nobody there can raise any meaningful comments about these ‘terror events’ there as being Mossad inspired which I believe they very much are. That now is not so different to the Soviet Union in it’s worst times and I’m afraid the forces that compel this kind of tyranny are the same in both cases…………again Israeli/Jewish/Mossad inspired. Scary!
Daniel – there are a FEW, very few sadly ‘self hating Jews’ one you might know about David Cole who went to Auschwitz and made a video where the the then ‘director’ of Auschwitz this was I think in the ’60’s admitted most of the ‘show’ put on at A. was bogus. “Human gas chamber’ was a Soviet mock up AFTER the war for example he showed how impossible the whole ‘story’ was…………….mind you he did suffer for it David Cole I mean, he had to go underground for about 20 years. Anyway just to say there ARE some brave exceptions.
That is another reason I found Gretchen’s initial reaction to Dr K so amazing and so dissapointing. Calling him a ‘moron’ and an ‘imbecile’. I thought ‘primal people’ might be more open or whatever well no and no and she has only ‘doubled down’ on this attitude ever since. Mind you Janov has done the same with his ‘theory’ rather than admitting some serious problems. (like lots of suicides) Is that another ‘cultural characteristic’ you might be able to enlighten me/us
“The best guess is yes, there were gas chambers” he says. “But there is still a lot of murkiness about the camps. I haven’t changed my views. But I regret I didn’t have the facility with language that I have now. I was just a kid,” he said this week. David Cole. Educate yourself!
Sounds like more ‘Daniel type quibbling’ at the edges…………you constantly leap to self serving type conclusions. You have NO idea of the real details here maybe David Cole HAD to say that to come out of hiding, maybe he is mistaken maybe he was mistaken maybe he did not go far enough, maybe maybe maybe but you also ‘conclude’ something. I pity your ‘patients’ but not only yours. Look to the big picture and the truth if that is not too difficult……..probably it is though.
I have not seen or heard so much about this latest ‘terror event’ in Munich. But the indications are not good 2 days ago Ole Dammegard probably the best in the world at deconstrucing these events focused on a photographer called Richard Gutjar (spelling may be off no need Daniel to focus on minutiae like this) who he said produced most of the ‘official’ photographs from Nice (was there ANY other photos? it seems no)……….well guess what the same guy shows up in Munich with more photos. This I find interesting because Dammegard talked about all this BEFORE Munich so this is beyond suspicious. This supports his theory of a travelling troupe including photographers, publicists, crisis actors etc etc. If all of this was subjected to ‘normal’ criminal investigations this nonsense would have been busted long ago. In Munich now all that has to be ‘decided’ is the shooter(s) Muslim nutcases or Neo Nazi nut cases. That’s your choice class and ONLY that choice…………………..kind of ignores the perpetrators behind the scenes GIVING you that choice. Remember the Mossad dictum “Be deception we make war” also what a co-incidence BOTH of your ‘choices’ are rank ‘anti-semites’ if you are content drinking this swill good luck to you but I am not……………….here’s a bit about this ‘photographer’
Now they are saying the ‘lone gunman’ in Munich was a German-Iranian. I imagine he went to his death shouting “Allah Akbar” and “Sieg Heil” all at the same time!! How amazing is that! This rubbish gets thicker all the time…….
> what does a patient advocate do?
>
> Phil, what you wrote suddenly made it more tangible to me how painful it must be for a parent when his or her kids move faraway, despite of supporting them, it must be a big goodbye to a past period ..
> I always appreciated my parents, specially my mom, to be supportive with me moving around, disappearing suddenly to Spain, well, she convinced me to make a short visit to them first after my decision at least to pick up a backpack..
> I wasn’t very considerate in those days,a little but not much, but they always gave me their support, my dad in practical ways, like bying and preparing me a cute old Citroen 2CV, you know, the hobbly swinging ugly duck , or goat as we called them, fabulous little cars that take you anywhere..
> sorry dad, and sorry mom, for the troubles I caused, and thanks for all you did for me.
> mmm, starting to feel a bit teary, just slightly but no time to go into it now, about to go shopping with a friend..
> M
Margaret,
I will try to find out more specifically, but I think a patient advocate helps people navigate our complex healthcare system.
Phil
> David,
> interesting news about the possible interbreeding with the Neanderthal and a pleasant comment to read as well, thanks.
> and well, no idea to which point evolutionary psychology can be useful in a clinical setting, apart from adding an extra and fresh viewpoint, and opening up mindsets, but honestly my knowledge about the field is minimal, and no, I do not plan to become a resarcher in it either…
>
> but I have always been interested in social biology and biology in general, and that will continue of course.
> my actual course has kind of a long name, being part of a set of courses all starting with ‘the biological basis of….’ and then came so far cognition, neuropsychology and some other, and now philosophy, with special attention of ‘science philosophy’, focusing on questions like what is knowledge, how can we know what is real, can we, what is and what is not, what is science and further questions I still have to learn about, and then of course all the views and ideas of the various philosophers over times past and present.
> it is amazing how some of the Greek ancient ones already put their fingers on some main points of actual quantum mechanics sort of,but I am also curious about ideas of other philosophers of the far east or middle east or elsewhere, but that will be for some later project maybe.
> they can be fascinating but also pretty longwinded and actually boring, any philosopher when it feels like his starting point is not up my alley sometimes and they go on and on expanding it and elaborating it, smiley..
> M
There are countries which have laws against hate speech, and not so specifically against holocaust denial. It should be obvious what the reasoning would be behind such laws. One reason would be to prevent the political rise of hate filled racist groups. The US has protected freedom of speech and yet had a huge war over slavery and important movements in recent years so that people could have rights. Donald Trump seems to be leading a racist, hate filled
xenophobic movement. I wonder what will happen if he’s elected president.
There is a big problem with ignorance and denial. Look at climate change denial for example.
A very a large majority of scientists are convinced of this reality based on massive evidence.
If you look around, it should be obvious the extreme effect that humans have had on the natural environment. Climate change deniers fight hard against effective action over this problem. A very selfish attitude as future generations may not have a world to live in.
Phil
> Phil,
> I think you might make a very good patient advocate, as you combine a friendly character with accuracy from your working experience and you come across as conscientious and thorough, with last but not least a lot of empathy. also you are a calm person, which can be very useful with worried patients.
> hope you find an offer with suitable conditions and nearby with a human resource manager who recognizes your qualities.
>
> ps David, I suppose you did notice the reply came from me and not from Phil, he posts my comments on the site for me so incidentally our names get mixed up, smiley
>
> I do not suffer from dissociative personality disorder..
> M
Margret,
Thanks, but first I would have to explore some more about the feasibility of this and then get some training and credentials before looking for any offers. Also think some more on whether this is actually suitable for me and something I’d like to do. It may go against my basic tendencies.
Some years ago, when I was unemployed, I thought on making a transition to teaching, mainly because the training was easy and my wife is a teacher. She encouraged me on this but I should have known better.
We would then have summers off together and live happily ever after. I should have realized that I have no ability or desire to control kids and am not a big talker, especially in front of groups. I thought I could work through the feelings and make this happen.
I like helping people but my days in a classroom trying to teach didn’t have me feeling like I was helping anyone.
Also, I never liked school much myself as a kid. It was a bad idea..
If becoming a patient advocate does seem like a good goal I might enroll in an on-line certificate program that I noticed. It is possible to get a Masters degree with it but the programs are either too costly and/or not located nearby.
Phil
For a couple of years I’ve been a member of a social group of single people over 55 years old. I found out about it through meetups.com. That was the easy part. There are something like 80 people in the group. They’ve had many outings. I’ve been to only 5 or so. Some of the people in the group have bee to all of them and know each other pretty well. I hardly know anyone. I have to push myself to get out and spend time with them.
This afternoon they are having a potluck BBQ in someone’s yard. I’m having a hard time making myself go to it. I’m looking for any excuse not to. I’m hoping it gets rained out. I’m hoping I start to feel sick and need to stay home.
There will be 40 people there. Maybe I dread feeling lost and invisible amongst so many. It helps me to go if I tell myself I won’t stay for long.
The trouble is that if I don’t go, then I’m just all alone some more. Seeing how alone I am really creeps me out. That I could be alone like this until I die really freaks me out.
I have to get out and meet people. I’m hoping that spilling it out here will make it harder for me to chicken out.
Going to work is so easy. Being retired and having to get out more and meet people is going to be so much harder.
Larry,
If I was in your shoes I can imagine feeling the same way. It would be too many people for
me to deal with; especially not knowing many. Yet, that’s a great way to meet people, and it
sounds like you feel you should do it. I hope you’ll go, and later if you want, report back to us on
how it went.
I’m been alone here for most of the day. It.s very hot so I’ve waited for evening when it’s a little cooler to do some work outside. Before doing that I played some music which brought up a bunch of sad feelings.
Phil
Looking forward to seeing you soon Phil.
Phil, if your kid decides to go into the armed forces, they will make a man of him. HA! not really, and either Hillary or the Donald seem to be warlike to me. but i was stupid and went in, fortunately the war was grinding down.
Otto,
No it’s my son’s friends who have been thinking about the armed forces. I’ve probably influenced him to not think of doing such a thing.
Phil
Listen, Buddy, making donuts is probably the most important job in the world We need our first responders to be alert at all times. HA! I cant eat donuts very often any more. I used to go through a dozen by myself when i was a kid.
Larry, the cat’s head actually shrank Or maybe he lost weight, but i dont think so. My wife and i both noticed it, and those damn fungi will get into any part of your body. Anyway, I will always try to put a HA! when i make my stupid jokes. I don’t like to use LOL.
Otto – this reminds me here in Ireland they have passed a law (maybe an EU law) that all dogs must be ‘chipped’ meaning an actual micro-chip is put into the dog in the shoulder area. Anyway several people reported their dog ‘shrank’ and it seems by quite a bit. It seems to be real and not just an example of Irish rumor. I send my brother who is the farmer here the link about that story and sure enough about a week later a guy comes around to tell him he is here to tell him his dog has to be chipped. My brother says he told him to “fuck off” and asked him if he would like to be chipped. The guy left and he has heard no more. But it costs 50 euros to do it and about a thousand euro fine for non compliance (a euro is a bit more than a dollar). One does wonder how long until humans have to be chipped for our ‘security’ with all these terror events hey we gotta keep people safe Ha! (just trying out ‘ha’ instead of ‘lol’ which I am a bit tired of)
Phil according to our beloved internet, cryptococcus is very common in California. It pisses me off that none of the vets we took him to, none of them seemed to be very aware of this. I don’t think vets today are very good, they all need their $500 worth of tests before they have any clue as to what is going on. However, one of our vets does do accupuncture, and we can actually see the effect right afterwards.
Phil, do you work mostly in the lab or do you also draw blood too?
Otto,
I don’t draw blood where I work and at other jobs I’ve had in the past. I don’t like that part of it.
Phil
Larry, i cant believe there are no cockroaches and mice and rats on every land surface in the world. I wouldn’t want to live somewhere, where these “pests” find it undesirable to live! HA! AND I STILL DON’T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER”. or maybe someone else said that. groucho. haha
Well Otto, there are lots of species of mice. As far as I know, not one of them occurs on every land mass. For instance, according thecanadianencyclopedia.ca
“Cascade deer mice are limited to southern interior BC. Other species inhabit larger areas but are also limited to specific regions. Mice occur in forest and field but habitat varies with species.”
Apparently they are most commonly polygamous. From that I infer after reading Margaret’s explanation of evolutionary psychology, that they have giant testicles.
Otto,
Is your wife still on vacation in Hawaii?
Margaret, “> one other interesting item is the inavoidable controversy that is bound to rise when one kid, or animal baby as well, from a species that needs a lot of parental investment, reaches the age where its mother feels like starting on a new kid and that gets born.” Is this then the story of mankind, the Cain vs Abel scenario? Since we didnt get born 6 at a time like the other predators, never mind, i have no more wisdom to impart, i am bored and tired and in physical pain and the advil has not kicked in. goodnight.
> Larry,
> all you said about your apprehension to join the barbecue group sounds so familiar, in a way it is a bit reassuring to find out I am not the only person to harbour thoughts like that before some social gatherings…
> hoping it will be called off due to bad weather, or even looking for signs of being ill,any ‘valid’ excuse not to have to go, without feeling too bad about myself..
> stilll I always fellt pretty weird thinking like that, it is good to know other people do too at times.
>
> I am feeling tense in the middle of the travelling preparations, dreamed last night about looking forward to go to a judo training, to then find out I had left my judo vest in my room, and had to rely on people to go all the way back to get it, feeling bad about being a nuisance to them possibly, being scared too not to get there in time etc.
>
> so many things to do and think about, and feeling anxious and not quite up to it but having to ignore it.
> a general feeling of unsafety is coming to the surface more and more, together with a lot of sadness..
> will go say goodbye to mom on tuesday, a lot of my feelings centre around her I guess, and about my own life and situation, loss of sight and getting older, always having to hope someone will be there when I need help…
>
> sadness close, don’t know if I will let it come up, will give it a try..
> M
I have a similar feeling Margaret, about getting older and more mentally and physically feeble, more and more unable to take care of myself and who else will? The past winter I got a glimpse of what it will be like to be very old and helpless, when the polymyalgia rheumatica rendered me weaker and weaker and more and more in pain to where I wondered whether I could continue taking care of myself now. Finally appropriate drugs brought it under control. I’ve returned to almost normal and am gradually tapering off the drugs. I’m greatly relieved that my health and strength is returning, but I’m haunted by the persistent spectre of not far away feeble old age.
Of course, who will take care of me has been an underlying feeling theme of my entire life.
> Phil,
> I relate to not being the kind of person that enjoys talking for a long while in front of a group of people, especially having to do it all the time, argh, must be exhausting unless one is a real ‘talker’.
> but I imagine I could get used to helping people in addressing medical issues, that seems different, hope you find some nice ways to make a change for the better.
> see you soon, smiley, M
An excellent article and raft of comments about racism: http://www.onbeing.org/blog/lori-lakin-hutcherson-what-i-said-when-my-white-friend-asked-for-my-black-opinion-on-white-privilege/8830
So I made myself go tot he BBQ last night. I arrived on time. Only about 10 people were there as yet, scattered in knots sitting down throughout the back yard. Darlene, the lady who organizes these outings, sitting with a few of her lady friends, called me over right away so I sat beside her and we talked a bit. After a while she got up to visit other people. I was left alone with no one on either side of me and my discomfort at being alone rose and I felt frozen in place, too uncomfortable to get up and visit someone, feeling too ridiculous for sitting there alone. To my relief, a lady who I knew previously from a bereavement group and who I helped in that group sat beside me and we talked for a nice while. Eventually she got up to mingle with others and then a lady who I know from the Unitarian community sat beside me and we talked quite a bit. Their sitting to talk with me at length sure calmed down and helped anchor me. I feel that they know more of me than anyone else there.
By now most of the crowd had arrived. There were a couple of new ladies, one of whom I felt drawn to but could not make myself go over to talk to her and get to know her. She eventually came over and sat beside me and we had a nice talk. I wanted it to last longer, but she got up and left too soon, seemingly not as interested as I was in continuing getting to know each other.
After the meal, finally I had the pluck to get up and go visit a group of lady acquaintances from a former brief rudimentary singles group. The connection with them was not as easy, the conversation more awkward, but it still felt important that I visit with them and I’m glad I made the effort.
At last 3 hours had passed and several people started to leave. That was my cue to leave too. I certainly didn’t want to risk overstaying my welcome, ha.
I was glad I was there. It felt good and so important to be with friendly people, yet at the same time deep inside I felt tense and anxious, hoping to make it through and leave soon before something went disastrously wrong for me.
I left at about 8 pm. glad I made myself go to the event, relieved that I made it through it, yet at the same time feeling how tenuous are my connections with people, how perpetually afraid I am of them, how hard it is for me to form long lasting friendships. It seemed unhealthy that I felt relieved to be alone again, when it is social stimulation that I should be cultivating.
This morning I felt a lethargy that would make it hard to get through the day. Eventually I started crying, missing my wife and the courage that our relationship gave me, going back in time and recalling my great hurt and need through her dying while at the same time being there for her in her final journey, eventually acknowledging the great hurt and need and loneliness I have now as I contemplate a new and uncertain future, finally drilling down to the core and feeling the great hurt and need there always, need never met because my parents were incapable of it and I knew it back then but blocked it out because it meant I didn’t have a family to which I belonged. I had no one.
It’s sick that I feel safer to be alone that rather than let people in.
Larry: but you are brave enough to write (so eloquently) on the blog about it; which as I see it is the first step BUT I also know you too also know this. Take great care Larry. and the best of luck..
Jack
Thanks Jack.
You’ve been very quiet lately Bernadette, and Sylvia.
Hi Larry, nice to read all your comments. Welcome back to the U.S. Phil. Larry, I guess everyone worries about someone caring about them as we get older, someone to help us when we need it. But as I think back I’ve always had a similar thought earlier in life too; like who will help me fix my car if something goes wrong with it. Now it’s more about health issues.
I was reading in the paper about Trump’s ghost-writer of “The Art of the Deal,” Tony Schwartz. He said: “If Trump is elected president the millions of people who voted for him, and believes that he represents their interests, will learn what anyone who deals closely with him already knows–that he couldn’t care less about them.” Schwartz goes on to say: “It’s impossible to keep Trump focused on any topic, other than his own self-aggrandizement, for more than a few minutes.” He regards Trump’s inability to concentrate alarming in a Presidential candidate.
While working on “The Art of the Deal,” Schwartz kept a journal in which he expressed his amazement at Trump’s personality, writing that Trump seemed driven entirely by a need for public attention. “Lying is second nature to him,” Schwartz said. “More than anyone else I have ever met, Trump has the ability to convince himself that whatever he is saying at any given moment is true, or sort of true, or at least ought to be true.” Often, Schwartz said, the lies that Trump told him were how much he paid for something, or what a building was worth, or how much one of his casinos was earning…when it actually on its way to bankruptcy.
I watched some of the Republican convention and it was full of doom and gloom and fear with Trump saying he was the only one to make us safe. They sure like to play into people’s fears.
Well, people will believe what they want to believe but I don’t see why more people can’t see through this guy–but then when you fool yourself you can be fooled by the foolers too.
Yikes…a bit of a downer for Sunday…sorry about that.
S
Boy! Going to that BBQ party last night sure pulled aside the curtain that’s kept hidden my life reality. I’m still breaking into short crying phases into this evening. It’s so clear, and sad, and I don’t like admitting it, but my parents were deficient…they didn’t have it within them to love me. Much of me wants to protect them and deny the truth, but denying doesn’t help me.
I knew the truth as soon as I moved back with them when I was 4, but I had to hypnotize myself away from it and block it out. The truth was such a suffocating heavy load to carry, too much to let myself know then. Yet the truth was always there, always borne in my body, always evident in my behaviour ruled by trying to avoid it, always delimiting my life. 6 decades later it is freeing to face it. I was thought shy, but it was awful truth that I was withdrawing from.
If only I could have gone to them with my anxieties and they responded with giving me a hug and ‘There There We’re with you through this. It will be OK.’ If only they could have held me and let me cry out my fears and loved me. As a child the inescapable but unknowable truth that I needed them, my parents, of course, and they would never be there forever, left me alone and afraid and stultified my life.
Thank you Gretchen for being there all the years I’ve been in therapy, helping me find the courage to see and go through this.
I’ll see you soon! 🙂 Gretch
Hey Jack , Hope you are having a great time on your trip! Hello to Mark! Gretch
Gretchen: Yeah! Mark and I now staying for the week at his sister’s (Louise, to whom you gave a session in 1999 ) in Cornwall . Mark is doing his life’s duty taking care of me, and I’m apparently a nuisance to every one including the dog (Gilbert). spinning my wheels.
I miss the weather there in LA though it’s not cold, but the rain for which I have had more than a lifetime, when I lived here.
Jo: I dunno what part of this Isle of the wicked Brits you are hiding in, but I’m now sharing it for maybe a month with you you guys. In the hope, as Patrick warned me ,that they may not let me back into the US on return.
I’m Keeping in touch with my Jimbo, who claims he’s getting such a relief from my absence. So in all it’s working for everyone (everyone being ME … of course)
So thank’s all of you’s Primal bloggers.
Jack
Don’t miss the weather too much! It could not be hotter and is reminding me of my growing up years in Palm Springs! It is suppose to cool off a bit tomorrow…. Fingers crossed! G.
Jack, I hope you enjoy your trip over here in Blighty. I’m sure you will miss the LA weather! It’s been amusing to watch the weathermen here trying to put a positive spin on our non-summer by describing it as “fresh”… There’s been the odd day when it’s been great, we just a load of them strung together.
Do you have real concern about getting back into the US? Have you been illegal there all this time?
David: I wasn’t aware that you were one us Brits (and bops). So far I’m having a great time with my nephew and niece and her 13 y/o daughter, Louella. I have lots of family reminisces and all that catching up that is difficult to get across in emails, or even phone chats. I love this part of the country:- Cornwall . very picturesque, and yes we did have a bout of rain (which I always hate), but the sun has been trying hard to break through and it is, supposedly, in this ‘nick of the woods’ to be the English Rivera.
Still I have always know what it’s like here which is why Ibiza and now LA are my types of weather … BUT my jimbo having been born in a tropical country, hates the heat and wants to live in the Arctic circle; BUT I insisted; no way. If that was his hearts desire then we should at least go back to living separately and just visiting from time to time.
There’s still and agenda in front of us, and I am really enjoying it all (which some how I feel I should not be deserving of … according to my nemesis), BUT I don’t give a shit. This is my life (I gather) and intend to get the very best out of it. Growing old is NOT something I recommend and if anyone out there has any suggestion to avoid it, without just terminating it … I’m all ears.
So!!!!! I’ll take all that comes along as it happens, and keep you informed. Those that find me a bit ‘off’ … I suggest you delete without reading it. Yes, I feel very lucky. Best wishes to you’s all … especially the retreaters and keep on blogging cos I’m reading everything, even if I don’t comment on much … yet.
Jack
Jack, I’m in LA currently🙃where, as Gretch says, it could not be hotter🌞
Cornwall is one of the best counties: some Americans will know it’s where ‘Doc Martin’ is filmed.
Sounds like you’re going with the flow, aging can be that simple!
Jo
Jo: Yep! I sort of have to. Enjoy the Retreat and get something out of the heat.
Best wishes to all the retreaters. They meant so much and did so much for me.
I’m using this visit as my form of retreat now. Just wish there was more sunshine BUT can’t have everything. Not for the want of trying though.
Jack
Random musings.
In spite of the heat here in S Monica, I went down with a cold 2days after arriving..it really zapped me. But I feel a bit better today.
Soon there will be the gathering of 40 people in one room…which is daunting as usual (Larry, Margaret) Surreal concept, since I’m more used to being alone.
However, not so alone now, as I’ve a new boyfriend….though I’m missing him sooo much, as he’s in Uk. We are keeping in touch with What’s App and FaceTime. We have quickly fallen for each other!!!! Yay!!
Congratulations Jo! That is great news!
Phil
Thanks Phil!
Congrats Jo. Glad the right guy found you (and you him).
Thanks Larry!!
> wow Jo, that is great news!!!
> so happy for you!
> M
Margaret – Thanks very much!
So glad for the great news of Jack’s travels with family and Jo’s new man! There for the hard times too for others – but living and loving and growing and retreats are sure a great way to make the best lives we can!
ox L
Thanks Leslie….soon!!
> Jo,
> I am so curious as to how and where you met etc., do you feel like telling us some of it here?
> M
Margaret, I met him online..I don’t feel like giving an account, but suffice it to say that the online experience was so demoralising for me that I almost gave up. There is one in 50 chance, maybe.
> Jo,
> sure, thanks, smiley no full account needed.
> interesting though, that despite of it being such a hard experience, it did have a good result at some point,
> have given it a try once, briefly, had one date , well a few dates with the same guy, but did not work out and then the site vanished.
>
> now on a lot of dating sites here they do not even accept women of over 55 or so anymore, ha!
> but it is inspiring, maybe I will give it a try anyway some time, have nothing to lose really, thanks for sharing,
> haha, and maybe you can share some of the horror stories at the retreat so I am prepared for eventualities that may occur..
> M
> my sister made a little video of my mom playing Pour Elise , or the first part of it, by heart, as we lost the sheet music, so I have it on my Iphone,
> she shifts to another piece, o
> some kind of Marche funèbre when the second part of Pour Elise should start, but that is not on the clip.
> she is almost 86 now, and listening to it, first when I was sitting right next to her at the piano, then now listening to it on my phone, it makes me teary.
>
> our visit also did at several moments, it feels like I am losing her bit by bit, she feels mostly ok, but keeps asking the same questions, mostly focused on letting it in she really lives there now, but not in a distressed way anymore, not sad or angry, more trying to grasp the idea and let it in.
>
> it is true it is for a big part the idea of having to lose her at some point which is very painful, to know having her play the piano on my Iphone may be all that is left at some point, feel like starting to cry right now.
> miss her already, and will miss her much more some day still, also miss the ‘normal adult mom’ she was only now and then, usually in real crisis situations.
> tears rolling now..
> M
my sister made a little video of my mom playing Pour Elise , or the first part of it, by heart, as we lost the sheet music, so I have it on my Iphone,
> she shifts to another piece, o
> some kind of Marche funèbre when the second part of Pour Elise should start, but that is not on the clip.
> she is almost 86 now, and listening to it, first when I was sitting right next to her at the piano, then now listening to it on my phone, it makes me teary.
>
> our visit also did at several moments, it feels like I am losing her bit by bit, she feels mostly ok, but keeps asking the same questions, mostly focused on letting it in she really lives there now, but not in a distressed way anymore, not sad or angry, more trying to grasp the idea and let it in.
>
> it is true it is for a big part the idea of having to lose her at some point which is very painful, to know having her play the piano on my Iphone may be all that is left at some point, feel like starting to cry right now.
> miss her already, and will miss her much more some day still, also miss the ‘normal adult mom’ she was only now and then, usually in real crisis situations.
> tears rolling now..
> M
Your post tugs at my heart a bit, Margaret, touching on all that I miss, but I can’t let it in too much too often or it would drive me crazy. Slowly though it does come out, deeper and deeper, more and more all encompassing.
> when I laid down, immediately burst out into crying.
> first small girl’s frustrated wails, both sad, and a bit angry, or indignated, and frustrated, not understanding why I did not get what I needed and why it seems I felt rejected and not understood.
> then it shifted into smaller and smaller child crying to end in tiny baby wails, first distressed, then sad…
>
> I feel how the part of my throat that often feels sore, is involved in these wails, it feels like a relief to let it out..
> can’t be bothered too much with neighbours then, they probably think it is just one of the kids somewhere crying, do feel slightly concerned about the cats, but they seem to cope and will check out on me if they would worry..
> ha,still a lot of pain to be felt there..
> it is nice to have a short clip of her with her playing music now, for anyone that would care to get some idea of how she looks, and ha, who would not mind me getting into a feeling….
> M
L, I have giant t’s too. or at least the thing that holds em. Yes wife is back from hawaii, phil. I have a horrible toothache and i hope it is gone by next week. dentist said take these pills and we see what happens.
TMI Otto.
Once again, Gretchen encouraged me to come back to the blog. Thanks, G!!
I got disconnected. From myself, from you all, from Gretchen, from my hubby… just as I lost connection with my mother. One of my last posts to this blog was about being overwhelmed with all the feelings that hit me at once after my father’s violent outbreak. What I didn’t realize until recently, is how far-reaching the effects of the disconnection from my mother is. It is affecting the way I relate to people to this very day. And I am not in control over it one bit.
I witnessed my mother hugging and comforting my siblings. I made up all kinds of reasons why I should not be hugged and comforted (I’m too old for that! The little ones need it more! I can take care of myself!) and I went to my bedroom and cried quietly into my pillow. I didn’t ask for help or comfort. I didn’t ask someone to explain to me the violence, the anger, the fear. I was left on my own to deal with it, which I couldn’t, I buried it. My mother didn’t reach out to me. She failed to notice how much the violence scared me, how overwhelmed I was, and how much I withdrew into myself, how disconnected I became. She left me alone, abandoned, disconnected.
In the meantime I’m learning that I have made this defense so perfect, that I got so used to it, it became my normal behavior. When something hurts me, when I feel someone doesn’t understand me, hear me, see me…. I withdraw and don’t communicate. When I’m in the feeling, a small event in the present can trigger my full response of withdrawal and disconnection. And an unconscious expectation for ‘the other one’ to notice and draw me out.
Gretchen didn’t respond to an email I sent her. Instead of following up with her after a day or two, I automatically assumed that she didn’t care, she did it on purpose, she wanted to trigger some reaction in me… all not true. But I was convinced. On top of all the painful feelings that were already consuming me, this put me over the edge. I literally wanted to die. (Alert: if I want to die because of a trivial thing like this, it sure is an indication that I am in a huge feeling!). I reacted like the little girl in the past: I withdrew, gave up, didn’t communicate my need, and assumed the worst.
After being locked into my defense, wanting to give up and die became my comfort zone. It was impossible to reach out for help. Even though I was miserable, it was a safe place. I didn’t have to feel anything.
The first session was a struggle! I was supposed to come out of that safe place, open up to the very painful feelings of “needing her to see me”, having to admit that I was hurt – but that is very painful and almost impossible to admit, hence the struggle, resistance and denial.
The second session brought some insights. I was able to express some of my urgent need for help, some of my anger, and some of the raw need to be connected. Screaming and crying for help; pushing with my head against the wall, this representing birth, my first experience of disconnection from mother.
When I am in a feeling, I am a very bad communicator. When I’m hurt, I don’t say it, I don’t know how. When I need something, I try to work around it, instead of asking. When I’m angry, I hold on to it, rather than expressing it.
This is very difficult. But I will keep pursuing it. Knowing they are a little girl’s defenses, is a good start.
I’m off to Switzerland to my brother’s wedding (29th). The announcement came just recently and on short notice, and it took me by surprise. But that’s a whole different story. I am sad to say that I won’t be in LA when you all come to the retreat, so I won’t meet any of you. Maybe next time…
–Bernadette
Bernadette,
I was wondering what was going on with you not being on the blog.
I think it’s good to talk about all this very difficult and painful stuff coming up
and so I’m glad you’ve shared with us.
I can relate to a lot of it and it has me thinking about my own similar patterns. Have a good trip and I hope you enjoy that wedding.
Phil
Phil, thanks for your support. It means a lot. I would like to hear about your similar patterns, if you’re up to it.
Yeah, thanks! I will try to keep blogging while over there…
Bernadette, it’s so good to see you writing on the blog again! I wondered what was going on and have been thinking about you. I’m sorry to hear you’ve been having such a hard time. You are absolutely right that wanting to die because of not receiving an email indicates a huge old feeling. That may seem so obvious writing it out, but even with such “trivial” things as you say, when you’re in that feeling before really connecting with it, it can be so hard – impossible often – to see reality. I understand wanting to withdraw as a defense. For me as a child, being alone was the best option, and became my “default”, what I go back to as a way of coping. But of course, coping is not healing.
I hope you have a safe trip to Switzerland and enjoy the wedding.
David, thanks for thinking of me. It means a lot. You know, not receiving the email was just the straw that broke the camel’s back, as the saying goes. I was already in so many feelings before, mostly baby stuff, like feeling helpless and powerless, confused and unable to make decisions. I thought I had made it clear in the email to Gretchen that I needed to stay connected with her during this difficult time. And when I didn’t hear back from her, I spiraled down quickly and deeply.
I never was aware of a need to be connected. In fact, I’ve always carried the badge of “independent” and “self sufficient” and “self-reliant” proudly. It’s just recently that I am becoming aware of the need, consciously. And how much the disconnection from my mother hurt me as a child. And how much I had to deny the need for connection, protection, comfort, safety. And now I realize how much it is still playing a role in my relationships with people. Frankly, it is astonishing that after all these years of therapy I am finally hitting the real stuff. I only begin to realize how strong my denial and defenses needed to be in order to survive.
It’s all part of the primal journey, I guess. I’m glad to be back on the blog. I feel quite connected…
Thanks, David! I’ve gotta get packed and to the airport now 🙂
–Bernadette
I’ve had similar reactions to people not responding to me, and the more I want to be close to the person in question, the stronger the reaction. Particularly with someone who’s a love interest. If I don’t hear back from them I can project all kinds of feelings onto the silence – that I must have said or done something really terrible to be ignored. Which has in the past brought up old feelings of shock, despair and hopelessness. My therapist has told me that one of the effects of childhood sexual abuse is the survivor becomes hyper vigilant to their environment. It’s not something you need, but it’s something you’ve got and you carry it with you into adulthood. I can certainly appreciate the truth in that. But I’m also a naturally very sensitive person, so I wonder where my own sensitivity ends and this hyper vigilance takes over.
You write with great sensitivity and clarity, so it’s great that you’re back contributing again.
David, sorry, I just only saw this reply. I had not checked the box for notification by e-mail when a reply is sent, and I didn’t scroll up until today. I have the box checked now.
I appreciate your input on this, very interesting about the hyper vigilance that you wrote about. I think I have that, too being a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I think I am also hyper sensitive (I’m not sure if it’s the same). I think it’s my hyper sensitivity that makes me react to the slightest rejection. The more I need someone, the more I feel rejected. Also, the more I open up to my pain, the more my need for connection, the more the pain when rejected. Also, the earlier in childhood the trauma, the deeper the pain of rejection, and the more drastic the response to the pain. Wanting to die is so clearly baby stuff!
When I have my faculties together, I can follow up with a question and get the reality. But when I’m in a feeling, I can’t do it. The trick is to recognize that I’m in a feeling, and then follow up with a question. If I can’t do it, then at least reach out for help and support. Reveal the feeling. Not hide out and will myself to die. I hope I won’t have to go there anymore.
Thanks, David, for keeping the conversation going! And thanks for your compliments on my writing… I don’t always feel that clear, but I take it on anyway 🙂
–Bernadette
Bernadette, your account touched me… I identify with much of what you describe ..
It seems to me you are making incredible progress.
Enjoy your time in Switzerland.
Jo, thanks for your kind words. They mean a lot. I think these ingrained behavior patterns are very difficult to deal with. It really means to give up part of myself, however unreal and neurotic that self is. Have you had any success in overcoming yours? I sure would like to hear how you approach them…
Thanks! And you enjoy your time in Santa Monica 🙂 And happy to read of your new boyfriend!
–B
Bernadette, I really get confused when I attempt to describe how things are for me, how I’ve dealt with aspects of my life, how I’ve changed…I have spent a lot of time on my own in Europe, and felt when I could, but recognise how shut down I get too…
Phone sessions, and email contact with Barry and Gretch have been invaluable, but lots of time and space between contact… just like separation from my parents..
Your description of not having a response from Gretch is very familiar to me…I have had the same reactions, but as to feeling I would die – that was muted, suppressed…I guess this means I withdrew.
It’s been recently brought to my attention that I am constantly trying to protect myself from catastrophe, make myself safe, which ultimately leads to remaining alone I think..
See, my response to you is fragmented.. I have not much clarity currently!
Jo, so sorry, I only just saw this reply today. I had not checked the box for notification by e-mail when a reply is sent, and I didn’t scroll up until today. I have the box checked now, so I won’t miss any replies in the future.
I totally relate to feeling fragmented and unclear. I’m not always clear and it is hard work to try to make sense of my neurosis. Possibly, feeling fragmented and unclear is part of a feeling or defense.
It is very clear what you wrote about protecting yourself and keeping yourself safe, leading to alone-ness. I wonder what makes you want to keep safe and protected and what ‘catastrophe’ you are trying to avoid. However, you had the courage to go to the retreat – not a very safe place in my eyes for wanting to stay protected and alone. I hope you are able to deal with some of these feelings while being there.
Of course, there are good reasons why we need to protect ourselves – in childhood that was the only way to survive. No wonder it is hard to let go of these defensive patterns.
One last thing about the feeling of wanting to die. I don’t think everyone has to feel that feeling. I almost died during birth, and that set the pattern for the future. Whatever it is, I always push it to the limit, to the place where I can’t go on, where I want to die. You don’t have to feel this if it is not part of your history, I think.
I hope to hear from you when you come back from the retreat 🙂
–Bernadette
> Bernadette,
> your words about needing brought tears to my eyes.
> too bad you won’t be there, hope you have a nice time at the wedding.
> how long will you stay there?
> I’ll travel back on august 14.
> M
Margaret, thanks for your empathy. It means a lot. It’s good that you can have tears and connect – I still have to deny a lot of my needs, in fact in the session I said to Gretchen, I’d rather die than beg for help. But as soon as I said it, I did beg for help 🙂 and cried a lot… the primal process in action…
I don’t know yet how long I will stay in Europe. I bought a one-way ticket. Maybe a month or so…sorry I won’t see you!
–B
> laying on my bed with a cat on each side.
> feeling strange, unpleasant, scared seems to come closest, sadness too, feels as if something bad could happen, some threat.
> not linked to anything specific, bit of concern about cats, and practical worry about catching plane with all traffic jams and safety checks etc., but mainly seems to feel like very old stuff, had bad nightmare about murderer trying to get into my house, could just barely turn the key in the lock of the door, but immediately he put a thin saw through the crack and started sawing the lock apart, knew he would get in soon, had to run and hide or get away, terror, panic…
>
> it is very unpleasant t have to function and prepare to leave really early tomorrow morning, while continuouosly feeling like this, like a disaster is approaching or something..
> if only my cats stay together and have a good life, ha, feel sadness creeping up to the surface more..
> glad I will be at a retreat soon, trouble is once I am there it feels probably safer a lot of the time.
> still, feelings looking to get out..
> M
I dread my upcoming trip on Friday. It’s a 7:30 AM flight and being far from the airport little sleep is going to be possible that night.
Which means Saturday is unlikely to be a good day for me. Also, my son will be left behind for 4 days and that’s a concern. He should be fine but it doesn’t feel quite right.
Phil
Well my trip is Saturday morning not Friday, but I’ll be leaving for the airport so early,
really the night before, I will be messed up.
Phil
Phil, how old is your son?
Have a safe trip!
–b
Bernadette: Have a safe trip and get all you can from your siblings. That’s what I’m doing over here in Engelund. I miss the sun and the clear blue skies, though I do appreciate the shear beauty of Cornwall and it;s quint streets and houses.
Jack
Jack, thanks, will do… Siblings (and nieces and nephews and their kids) is all I have left now, with mom and dad gone. It will be a whole new way of looking at, and being with, my family. And seeing my parents’ house that is no longer ours will be quite sad, too.
Enjoy! Might see you later in the UK…
-B
The weather here is quite a ‘problem’ I have been in Ireland 12 days now and have not seen a sunrise or a sunset. And I have been looking every day. Similarly in England though in Yorkshire there was kind of 1/2 sunrises and 1/2 sunsets (better than nothing) In London forget about it cloud cover most of the time or some kind of cover at least but in London I DID see plenty ‘spraying’ spraying as in chemtrail type spraying. It seems the weather over here is being manipulated and not in a good way. Is there a good way to manipulate the weather I would say no. For all that I am enjoying being in Ireland quite a lot but it is a shame about the weather. It also has disastrous effects on farming in every which way. Also I notice there is a potentially huge amount of blackberries growing wild here in every ditch and fense an amazing amount but I suspect most will not get enough sun to ripen to an actual blackberry. Could be a symbol of the idiots who are doing this. Just more ‘lies’ from the powers that be whoever they are. I have my ‘suspicions’ but leave that for now.
Now (and I used to be a ‘devout’ believer in ‘global warming’) I suspect that is mostly another ‘lie’ It seems it was a theory cooked up for less than truthful purposes and now we have a situation here where peoples common expierience tells them one thing (it is colder and more overcast than ever) and they are being TOLD something else that it is getting warmer and warmer. And the science is ‘settled’ we are told aside from the fact that ‘settled science’ is an oxymoron it seems to be yet ANOTHER of those big things we are constantly being TOLD is true but actually isn’t……………….very odd indeed.
It seems to me post WW2 most everything we are told is true basically is not. Starting with the ‘greatest lie ever told’ we move on to vaccines are good for you, flouride (in Ireland at least) in the water is good for you, a ‘virus’ causes AIDS, spraying ‘chemtrails’ would be good for you IF it was happening which it is not (2 lies there) Muslims are bombing and killing all over Europe and so many more. Enough to make me start questioning things…………….
I can agree that the weather is not behaving itself, BUT as for the reason … I don’t want to surmise either way. I doubt that a deliberate attempt is being made via “chem trails” … for what purpose???? you seem not to want to say.
Jack
I quite like this guy, this was done before the killing (if that is what happened) of the 86 y.o. priest in France. IF that is what happened it has more of a Zio feel to me than a Muslim one just the way it strikes me……….
Bernadette,
My son is 19. He’ll be fine, but it feels a bit like I’m abandoning him. Actually, he will be off with his friends or having parties at our house every night.. It’s a worry one way or another.
Phil
Phil, I hear you. Our 19 year old nephew stayed with us for three month earlier this year.; quite grown-up, yet still a child. Independent but still in need of guidance. I got a glimpse of a parent’s worries, quite tricky, seems to be part of the job. I can relate a bit…
–B
Margaret, nothing triggers these feelings like taking a trip across half of the world! For me it is leaving a safe place (home, womb), uncertainties, facing harsh realities. As I’m rushing to pack and get to the airport today, and coupled with excitement for seeing my siblings soon, I also keep feeling: I want to stay home, in bed, in the womb, be safe! Mommy hold me and keep me safe!
Good luck with your travels!
–B
I’m glad you are back on the blog, Bernadette.
That was Larry.
Thanks, Larry! Have a safe trip to LA!
–Bernadette
On Thursday I fly to LA. As usual, a part of me is pretty keen on seeing everyone and having the retreat experience. But another big part of me is dreading going. Even though it’s becoming easier and easier for me to be with people, I still have a ways to go to get better, and even though there are so many nice people at the retreat whose company I enjoy, I have to keep bracing against a big empty hole that keeps growing in me while I’m there with them.
I’ve been thinking how it will all be over too soon and I will be back home alone again and everyone will be far away and forget me, so what’s to get excited about. Then I recognized there is an old feeling there from when my parents left me to live at my aunt and uncle’s when I was 1 ½ until I was 4. They came to visit me, but for so many years never took me back to live with them, and with always being disappointed I stopped letting myself get excited to see them. I stopped hoping they would take me home. I stopped feeling that I belonged to them or that they cared.
By the time when I was 4 and I was brought back home to live, I had withdrawn from letting myself get emotionally involved with them. But I had become emotionally shut down from everyone, even my siblings. I never could let myself get more than superficially attached to them, at least not until I started therapy. All that time I unconsciously tried to not let myself see how alone I was.
More and more I’m feeling how alone I’ve been. Here I am now many decades later, supposedly grown up and able to take care of myself and do what it takes to meet my needs. But even after all these decades there is an enormous dark hollow in me that I run from feeling, and I still to some large degree wall myself off from people to protect myself from feeling that ancient hollow. At the retreat I find it difficult being on that fine edge of wanting to be with people and wanting to run from them.
Anyway, I’m going and I’ll work at the retreat experience because it’s good for me. Overall it’s always been a good experience, and a very unique and precious one.
Still I dread going
It’s interesting to me Larry what you say in that I had a very similar thing happen to me. I was ‘farmed out’ to my Grandparents from I dunno 1 1/2 y.o. to about 3 not as long as you but seems quite similar in a way. The way I feel about it now it was that time with my Grandparents that ‘saved’ me to any extent that I am saved. I have talked about this here before but what I find interesting is I can still REMEMBER many moods, feelings and ‘events’ from that time with them. All of a very ‘positive’ nature but from the time I came back home………….nothing! The only next things I remember is my first day at school at almost 5 y.o.
It was from my time with my Grandparents any ‘good’ qualities I have developed my love of Nature, my gregariousness, my outgoingness, my ‘leadership’ abilities all of these qualities I should qualify with ‘such as they are’. I was treated like a little “King” there I was the only child around not competing for scraps like I was at home. I think it also explains the 2 sides of me people here know I can be aggressive, competitive, hurtful even all in an attempt to get mine or my share as I saw it. I don’t know why I write this but to say I suppose I do relate to what you say. Also we had a farm as your family had and in those days at least there was something about the farm that led to people being treated like animals. I say this not really in a totally bad way it meant there was a kind of genuine understanding of all life there but at the same time life is one thing but the life of a farm (domesticated) animal is another and actually now that I write this I think that is my feeling and also what I am ‘rebelling’ against in what I see as all this modern ‘brain washing’ it’s like to me now people and adult people too are being treated like ‘farm animals’ or we could even say “Pharm Animals” as in PHARMA……………with the massive reliance on drugs and vaccines. I honestly see it this way humans now are like ‘farm’ or ‘pharma’ animals take your pick being pumped full of drugs, vaccines and political and other kinds of propoganda morning noon to night. Welcome to “Animal Farm” as George Orwell called it
Even the sky above it seems is being ‘Pharmed” a real prison planet if people do not object and yes I DO object. Not that it has achieved much so far but I see it as a duty………..plus I want to.
Patrick: I quite liked this comment of yours telling us about yourself and your early childhood. It resonated with me.
Jack
Jack – thanks and and going on the principle that one bit of ‘respect’ deserves another…………you asked WHY would ‘they’ be messing with the weather/environment/climate. I think that is probably the hardest question maybe along with exactly WHO is doing it. But I find it helpful to first find out as much as possible WHAT exactly is being done as much as we can tell
Below is 20 mins video/talk by a guy called Harry Rhodes and it was to meet him I came to the UK/Ireland this summer. I even spent a few days in his home in Wolverhampton and we came to Ireland together. Anyway just to say this guy to me is not only some kind of ‘pundit’ I have met him and he is an impressive guy in lots of ways. Though I think his ‘solution’ is a bit overblown nontheless I think he is VERY good on what exactly is being done. The last part here refers to some of the stuff he did in England when I was there and also in Ireland. That is the bit while I believe there is something to it I think he might be better ‘diagnosing’ what is wrong and what he gets into is a form of ‘weather control’ itself………….to me the essence of the weather is to leave it alone
This is brought home to me very much living here in the West coast of Ireland. The weather is so dynamic and changeable, such immense power also BUT I am convinced it is being messed with. An Ireland with no sunrises or no sunsets (not an exaggeration) is beyond depressing and come to that a lot of the people are ‘depressed’ and run to drugs of course but ‘counselliing’ also and I am about as skeptical of one as of the other. I never get the feeling you or anyone else actually watch anything I put on here but if you have the patience I think you might find this interesting it even applies to Cornwall also I would say
Patrick: without a doubt Cornwall is very quaint and very beautiful and very old-worldly. BUT for all that I am not sure I would want to live here. Not quite sure exactly why, but a quick guess would be, lack of sunshine and clear blue skies However, that is not all that.is important in life … another having a close relationships. I am closest to Jim, then the next closest are two friends and three niece/nephews, then my two remaining sisters After that I have several that I can relate to casually like several neighbors and some bloggers.
Meantime, though I am enjoying this trip enormously … so far. I’ll take what comes and move on from there. I wish all you retreat-ers the very best of a retreat.
I may send a couple of Pictures of Cornwall for those not in the know.
Jack
Speaking of ‘diagnosing’ a problem and proferring a ‘solution’ to me the 2 things are often quite different and one does not necessarily at all follow the other. It’s true one cannot really have a solution without understanding the problem though I suppose sometimes people ‘stumble’ onto solutions just by pure instinct still I would say understanding the problem while important is no guarantee of anything. Isn’t Karl Marx pretty much a good example and is Arthur Janov another one? To me that is a legitimate question.
Patrick: Quote:- “I would say understanding the problem while important is no guarantee of anything. Isn’t Karl Marx pretty much a good example and is Arthur Janov another one? To me that is a legitimate question.”
I couldn’t disagree with you more in terms of what you said in the quote. I feel Karl Marx understood the problem implicitly. His solution had never been tried, and he gave it a shot; quite brilliantly, I would say. The problem was not understanding the ‘REAL Nature” of us humans. that was not delineated until Arthur Janov and therein was Janov’s brilliance.
Your ‘SAY’, I found, to be way too general to convey anything of importance. Which I feel to the un-initiated could cause a lot of confusion. I would say simply that understanding the problem is NOT to say that one knows the solution. The former does not require any brilliance the later really does. If indeed you meant the same, then I felt you did not convey that very well.
Jack
For some reason I want to talk about this a bit, I went to the beach as usual and I have got to love the slow wading/walking I do in the ocean there is something totally relaxing about it it somehow allows me to ‘let down’ just go down down deep in my soul you might say………….I am wading along and I start to cry, cry about a scene and a situation I know only too well my momma beat me to a pulp (as I used to say even though that is a bit exaggerated) on my First Communion Day I cry and call out and not for the first time but today a ‘thought’ flashes into my brain it’s like I am saying to my mom ‘what are you doing you are only hurting and damaging yourself’ and it’s like even at 7 y.o. I ‘know’ she is above all hurting herself, I am a tough boy I can take the beating I fall and skin my knees in cowshit every other day does not bother me but what bothers me above all here is my mom is ruining herself by doing this, SHE will ‘pay’ for this she will pay in so many ways including my love being diverted away from her maybe forever
It struck me what an ‘old soul’ I was even at that age I ‘understood’ so much above all my mom was ruining herself………..then she may try to quench my love for her but she can’t that has already been brought into being my love that is and brought by her, the time inside her and later too even the way she ‘farmed me out’ to HER people she knew somehow I would get what I needed there even is she could not directly provide it. So I picture my love for her as a shining light that can never be extinguished she may try but it has an ‘eternal’ quality to it. It will last forever and in a way has been around forever but it was HER who brought it into being. So she made it she made me she cannot now turn around and destroy it. Things don’t work that way she may TRY but this comes back to it’s her illusion that she can she is confused herself and is only damaging herself. Lots of snatches of songs about love, eternal love etc. Part of me knows though that love can be ruined and in my case was I did turn away from her but there also was this ‘eternal’ part that never did. The pure part the indestructible part lasts and lasts and lasts and is awaiting to be awakened like today in the blustery waves
Another aspect of this I remember my mom was ‘leaving’ us really really leaving my dad’s car was running to take her away and while I was overwhelmed by the unfolding disaster (I thought to myself my dad cannot even boil an egg who will feed us we will it seems actually have to die) but another split off bit of my brain feels ‘sorry’ for her so if she leaves what will she do when she gets there. I picture her bereft without us how will she lives through even one day without us. I picture her so miserable and feel bad for her in the middle of this horrific scene…………..anyway I just wanted to talk about this it seemed important I don’t know if I convey it properly.
This was one of the songs that came into my mind the words seemed so perfect to what I was feeling……….
Oh let your little light shine
Let your little light shine
It’s really something that people from all over board planes and travel, some half way around the world, every once in a while to come to a retreat. You’ve really built something unique there, Gretchen, Barry and Vivian, and the same goes for you people who keep attending, never giving up.
It’s impressive.
I honestly wonder is it really? There is something amazingly repititive about it to me at least it would be better if people were ’empowered’ where ever they are or wherever they live. Are they? It does not seem so to me and to go to these same kind of gatherings year after year I actually find it quite strange. Maybe that’s just me I don’t feel comfortable in groups very much and I find just about ANY group seems to be to descend into ‘group think’ literally. Last year I went on Dr Kruse’s cruise and though it was cool and everything and some of the people were very interesting I would not really want to do it again not I think would they. Or this year with chemtrails activists again I liked it and found it very interesting but would I want to ‘repeat’ that – not really unless there was new information to get or some kind of activism where I was needed in some way. So to me I would not call it ‘impressive’ but as I say for sure part of that is just me.
I think I can safely speak for others when I say we keep returning because we experience personal (albeit painful) growth from retreats.
Patrick, I would love to hear more about you and your mom, but i am sick and i am tired, and i will try later to see if you write more. goodnight. I am going to sb saturday, and if i can get my mouth open, i might say one little thing i thought of.
Otto,
That’s great you’ll be in sb Saturday; I look forward to seeing you there.
Phil
See you there, Otto.
Apparantly this is the 50th Anniversary of when England won the Soccer (Football) World Cup in England 1966. I would have been almost 14 at the time and my older brother just turned 15. Anyway here is something he wrote this morning remembering the day. I found it interesting his recollection of that time makes a change for me to just me ‘remembering’ my own. I find as usual pretty much his memory of ‘specifics’ is a bit better than mine.
“Papers here seem to be competing for bizarre/whimsical stories about surrounds to the competition/final. eg Charlton brothers’ dad did his night shift on the Friday night in his local coal mine in Ashington, Northumberland before taking the train to London in the morning with his wife Elsie for the game. I hope that man managed a bit of sleep on the train on the way down. .
On the day, Patrick and I were ‘2nd weeding’ a field of mangolds below the road on the original farm. Father was around but on other duties. At lunchtime which was usually about 1.30-2 pm, I put on the ‘Light Program’ on the big old radio above over to hear the build-up. Black and white TV did not make it to our house till Christmas ’68. Even then we only had RTE who I don’t think had any coverage of the competition.
Anyway, we had finished lunch at about 2.45pm but had engaged Father in conversation about the game. So before we knew it, the game was on and before long the Germans (Haller) were ahead but ENG (Hurst) equalised before HT. So the expected call of ‘Come now boys think it’s time ye went back to work’ never came. The 2nd half was cagey with Martin Peters scoring but GER’s got a late equaliser (Weber). A great sense of disappointment in the Griffin household in Goulane and a real sense that the momentum was now with the GERs in extra time.
As I recall it, GERs were indeed well on top till of course Hurst scored his famous ‘was it over the line’ goal. That Soviet linesman (Armenian actually) gave it and became a hero all over ENG. I think it’s widely accepted that ‘no way’ was ALL the ball over the line, (unlike Frank Lampard’s goal v GER in QFs in ’06, that is credited with speeding up the adoption of goal-line technology). Ref took an age to award the goal. At which point, Father who was still listening to the game on the radio with us said I think it’s time you boys were heading to the field now. To which we readily agreed having considered ourselves very lucky to have heard so much of the game. A bit later Father came along in the horse and cart and told us the final score.. 4-2. Happy boys continue with their weeding into the late evening, maybe till 8.30 – 9pm. The next morning, I was most surprised that the celebrations in London was the lead item in the BBC News.”
Sorry if I am self indulging too much here but I find it interesting how my older (well only 14 months older) brother’s rememberance of ‘details’ is so much better than mine. Like all this about the Radio Station it was on, what kind of crops we were weeding not to mention details of the game itself while all ‘ring’ true and even helps me recall yes actually that’s correct I would have not been able to ‘recall’ any of this all by myself. And I have noticed this so many times about my brother we kind of did everything together as kids but he can recall way more specifics than I can
I suppose it points up the difference in people my brother was always more ‘externally’ orientated I was much more ‘internal’ more of a moody dreamy boy my brother was all externals and specifics. My ‘memory’ of the day tends much more towards the ’emotional’ in that what I remember is being happy our Dad actually sat down with us and shared something we both were very interested in. I was happy just for that part. There were 2 Charlton brothers playing for England Jack was center half and Bobby was center forward 2 extremely key positions and they are the 2 my brother refers to.
Anyway my Dad did not know anything really about English football and had no idea who the Charltons were. Remember we are listening to this on the radio no TV yet in the house and at some point my Dad says “That Charlton fellow is playing a ‘blinder'” (blinder means he is playing very well is all over the field etc) so I say to my Dad “Daddy there are TWO Charltons in the English team” And I enjoyed that being able to tell him something he did not know and my Dad’s pleasure somehow at my answer. Like something we shared sort of like the older days when we were closer and I had that ability to ‘delight’ him I could see it in his eyes when I said something he found ‘funny’ or ‘smart’. I felt ‘loved’ by my Dad in moments like that but as I got older it started to feel more like ‘pressure’ pressure to be funny or smart and somehow the innocent joy of earlier times had gone out of it.
I also pick up from this my brother’s almost ‘worshipping’ of things English and interestingly enough he has lived in England now for over 40 years and has no desire to leave it there. I can see the contrast between the 2 peasant boys weeding and the glitz and bright lights of England to which he was already drawn
As to “he contrast between the 2 peasant boys weeding and the glitz and bright lights of England to which he was already drawn” I had my own version of that but it tended more towards the Rolling Stones, Kinks, Hollies, Beatles etc even already at that time. My brother was not interested in any of that and never has been. My fantasies tended more towards this………….”as long as I gaze on Waterloo Sunset/I am in paradise”
Patrick: this seems like a new side of you emerging, and I like these recent comments of yours.
Lets here more. This I feel is what this blog is really all about.
Meantime, enjoying Cornwall and it’s quaint and old worldly-ness. This weekend will go up north and see my two sisters and not sure what to expect. It also looks as if we will be able to scatter my brothers ashes and I know I will cry again for my little brother. Meantime, only clouds and no sun Boo hooo!!!!!
Jack
Patrick it is interesting how differently you reacted to life compared to your brother.
> am in Los Angeles, awake in middle of night..
> had an awful dream on my second plane, about one of my cat’s dying .
> it triggered a strong feeling about death, nooo nooo nooo and aaaah but all silent of course with big tears streaming over my face, luckily everyone was staring at their video screens with the window panes shut, so all dark and I could cry away internally screaming..
> M
Sounds like you are ripe for some feelings Margaret.
> Otto, I too am glad you will be at the retreat and am looking forward to hearing what you want to say..
>
> Patrick, we would definitely not keep going back to the retreats if it would just be repetitive, without growth and new connections being made, and the empowering experience of feelings being dealt with both there and later on at home.
> after a while it becomes part of our life, but at a retreat the access to hard stuff is undeniably way much easier than alone at home.
> one thing is at home it is easier to keep avoiding stuff that is very painful, while there the whole atmosphere is centered around facilitating to dare to go there if possible.
> I agree with Daniel it is indeed impressive, which feels good.
> M
Yikes!!!! Vicki just told me there is some confusion about the time of the first retreat group tonight. Apparently it is written incorrectly on the website. So the first group is at seven. You can arrive no earlier than four and dinner is at six fifteen! So sorry if anyone was confused. Gretch
And…. Yes there is a difference between a seminar and a retreat. One is used to convey intellectual albeit valuable information and one is for continued growth and change. I might not want to discuss the same subject too many times but I do want to continue working on my own issues. An individual can be doing quite well in their life and in fact be highly functional while still being open to the idea that there is always more growth and change ahead. Obviously a personal choice for those who might find it useful . Gretch
To all you treaters: Have fun, then when the session start you can SAFELY do all you complaining, anger and utter sadness; then relax among y’all. I loved all of them and got so much outta them. What a gift they are.
And yes Gretchen, once on this path it’s an ongoing endeavor. I’ll be doing it for the rest of the time I have left. I love life and feel grateful that I was born … but then I had a granny and a mother. Not perfect, but comparatively I got something; I was lucky.
Meantime still amazed being in the Cornish countryside … not had a Cornish pastie yet … saving that for later. Then later in the week going up to my birth town and scattering my little brother’s ashes along with my siblings and his children. One of my sisters will be reading my little brother’s favorite poem as we scatter his ashes and I just know I will cry. Cry for my loss of a brother.
I’ll be thinking of y’all up there in the Santa Barbara.
Jack
Jack, I will be with y’all in my thoughts and with my heart when you go scatter your brother’s ashes. It is such a lovely thing to do for all of the family together, but especially for you. Have a safe trip up north – always a lovely drive for me through the English countryside when I’m there, I think it is so very pretty. I hope you can enjoy it some!
–Bernadette
Thanks Bernadette: I don’t think the north is that pretty, but who knows it’s been 35 years since I last saw it, and more than 60 since I lived there.
Meantime, enjoy Switzerland.
Jack
Jack, the North is VERY pretty, if you know where to look. Actually, it’s “signposted” for you, with four National parks, including the Lake district, which is my favourite place in the UK and incredibly beautiful. I don’t know if you will have the time or means to do any exploring, but certainly the Lakes are well worth a visit.
My childhood was spent on a farm on the edge of this area. Strangely, we never spent any time exploring there as a family. I remember only one family picnic. I asked my mum recently how it was possible that we lived on the edge of one of the most scenic landscapes in the whole world and never went there (though we did drive through it to visit my grandparents). Her reply was that my father always needed to be back in time to milk the cows. To me though, this doesn’t add up, as we could have been have driven to the heart of the Lakes in 20 minutes, enjoyed a day there and have been back for “milking” at 5pm very easily. We could have been there every weekend if we wanted. I have been back to the Lakes camping in recently years several times and saw more of it on my first trip than in the whole of my childhood. On that first trip I had to pull the car over as I was driving into the Lakes and cry for half an hour. It felt like completing an enormous full circle, that I had survived, and I was back.
Sounds like you are having some very meaningful family time. Out of curiosity, where is your birth town? Enjoy the rest of your trip, wherever you roam.
David: Yeah! that was a bit of a glib response on my part, and yes I’ve been to the lake district and it is without doubt very beautiful and of course I’ve done the Yorkshire Dales (Ferndale and all that area t’other side of Thirsk). Also nearer to my (dreadful) home town Oldham, on the Peninne border, in Lancashire there are some incredibly beautiful scenery where as a kid we’d go camping and hiking. My mother and father loved walking, as did we kids, and every Sunday after Sunday School we’d all six of us, Mam, Dad, Me (Jack) Vera, Ian and Mavis (all of kids within 3 1/2 years).
My brother and I were very close as adults, but hated both of us having to sleep in the same single bed and both of us peeing bed and blaming one another. Vera, the next oldest, is the one I feel most estranged from. Like my father she has inclinations to being middle class, whereas the rest of us particularly Ian knew we we at the bottom rung of the social ladder. My little Sister Mavis was always the baby and was treated as such. I’m really eager to see her, but now she’s suffering mild Parkinson’s disease.
Just spent the morning phoning both my sisters since this Friday we’ll be scattering my (little) brother ashes, at a place where he in his twenties, had an epiphany. He, at the time did not fully understand what happened to him, but by my reckoning it was a re-living of his babyhood, but he put it down to a religious experience, that, I find, most that have these re-livings always do. Unless ones had Primal therapy, or at least read “The Primal Scream”, there is always a tendency to EXPLAIN it in Religious terms, by my reasoning.
Yeah Oldham was a cotton spinning town with 127 cotton mills spewing back smoke from tall chimney 6 days a week and was glum to put it mildly. Couldn’t wait to get away from it after serving two years conscripted military service from 18 to 20 y/o. From there I went to live in London where I lived for the next 17 years; before being invited to go to Ibiza Spain, after a break-up from a three year relationship that shattered me. There, in Ibiza I read “The Primal Scream” and haven’t looked back since. BUT it took me another 7 years to get over to LA. The rest is my therapy 35 years and still ongoing.
Jack
I really don’t know Lancashire, but it sounds wonderful that you had such regular family outings that you all enjoyed and looked forward to. When I go camping in the Lakes I regularly see families with very young kids clambering over the fells in flip flops, having a great time, and wonder what was the great hardship that my parents couldn’t it get together to organise more trips for us. There are families there from all over the UK. All over the world actually, and for us it was right there on our doorstep, but I only really got to see it from inside a car on the way to my grandparents. I make up for it now, and try to get over there to camp every summer if I can.
I had one sister who I was never close to, though I was getting closer to her when we both shared our experiences of finding our birth families some years ago. She moved to Canada to work as a truck driver with her partner and then was killed in a strange and terrible driving accident, thrown from the truck’s cab into a river after plunging off a bridge to avoid a collision with a car, her body never to be found.
I don’t feel any great connection with any extended family. I never really liked my father’s side of the family, though my mother’s side had some nice, lively people. They are mostly in the West Indies and I really see any of them.
I found “The Primal Scream” in my school library when I was 16. I was moving into my drugs phase and only read the appendices and chapters that dealt with drugs. Didn’t read it properly till I was 21 and in art school, when it blew my head off LOL. I suppose I didn’t look back either, although it took me a long time to really grow into the process, after I started in LA.
Day2 Retreat. Could not get mouth open in group but was able to emote some chunks in car afterwards. that is a happy departure from previous retreats, where I have been devastated and disappointed about my silences.My silences in groups are about fear, which I sat in for 45 mins hoping to say something about, triggered by someone else’s fear in group. I wanted to say something in the first group about my grandmother’s many years of ignoring me as contributing to my fear of being around people, today’s group was the fear of being murdered by my uncle for opening myself to playing with him, and nearly being killed by him for doing so, also–my fear of people. The many PI women here and the big yoga group of women, all in their skimpy summer clothes, are making me feel so deprived or crazy or horny or something. Maybe it is about touch. not sure. typing on the office computer here at santa maria not easy. I should get them a better keyboard, or get myself better hands. I don’t feel I will ever be able to be in a loving relationship and feel bad for Z. The above reasons, well don’t forget mom disappearing at age 10 months along with my home with her sisters, great aunt, brother and dog. Age 10 months. I was able to shout out a little in last seesion with Barry, I wanted to shout out about this stuff in group, I wanted to shout out in the churchgrounds with Buddy, like I said, able to tiny shout chunks out in car, and cried a little last night drivinjg to get cold water after 1st group. big improvement, thanjks to music buddying at pi. woke up with some song strange brew in my head, not sure if on my ipod. it speaks to me somehow. I look up lyrics in a second. makes me cry. not so fond of Clapton, but song is telling me something. Barry warmly greeted me at group. What a lover. ohy yeahy I did not say what I told Margaret I wanted to say, but maybe I will.
Otto, you sound like you’re in a lot of pain. It would be so good, if you could say something, if only “I’m scared” or “Barry, I need help speaking up” or “I don’t know what to say but I want to say something” that will break the ice. I know you know the drill….I’m rooting for you!
–Bernadette
I know most of you are in SB but I wanted to write a bit about my trip from hell to Switzerland, just to get it out of my head. My flight was delayed in LA, so I didn’t make the connection in Dusseldorf, which made me arrive way later in Zurich than expected. My luggage didn’t arrive with me, and after filing a report with the luggage guys, I was told that it would take 2-3 days to be delivered. Well, that was a problem because my brother’s wedding was the next day, and my dress, shoes, accessories, etc. were in the suitcase, along with all the essentials. Wow! And WTF!
I had to improvise because there was not enough time to go shopping for new clothes…what a nightmare! The good thing I learned from it was to always take it easy, go with the flow, let the dice fall where they may and make the best of it. Most important, I was there, at the wedding, surprising my big brother with my presence. He burst into tears when he first saw me. We hugged and held and rocked each other for a while. That was worth every effing effort and inconvenience. The wedding celebration was exotic and unusual to say the least…and my “improvised appearance” fit in just fine. My new sister-in-law seems kind and warm and open to talk about things. And it looks like she loves my brother, and he loves her, so that’s most important, I guess.
It was nice seeing my family, all together at a joyful event for a change. We’ve had so many funerals over the last years.
So, I’m slowly recovering from jet lag, and as my brain is beginning to catch up with real time, I’m starting to be immersed again in the family dynamics, still the same after all these years, still the same feelings getting triggered, only now I’m aware of them and can let them flow through me as they come up. The childhood events seem so far away and yet, the emotional aftermath is so eerily present at the same time.
I love my siblings, but there is a certain emotional harshness about them. They seem nice but there is a lot of negative judgment in them about people. It is at times hard to listen to the things they say, and it’s worse when I get into the crossfire, so I try to stay out of it. Not all are the same (out of the seven). Probably my oldest sister and my youngest brother are the most connected…
Reminder to myself: I must stay true to myself. It’s still hard to do at times, especially when I get pushed back into my “assigned” role. I tend to play along with it, maybe because fighting against it seems a lot of work. But I can see that it is really, really bad for me to fall into the same trap. After all these years I still lose myself to a certain extent But then I set myself up for it, too. Insidious old patterns!
We are celebrating Swiss National Day today – another family get-together, more food, more gossip — oh joy! More practice staying true to myself.
In the meantime, enjoy the retreat, you guys!
–Bernadette
Thanks Jack and Bernadette, Jack I think it’s wonderful that you and Mark have this opportunity and I can only hope it brings some closure. We will be thinking of you. Bernadette, Omg! The trip from hell for sure! Poor thing! I’m just glad all worked out for the wedding and what a moving moment with your brother. I have no doubt at all that you will stay true to yourself through it all. I think you see things very clearly. Please keep me posted! I will see you soon! 🙂 Gretch
Gretchen, thanks! It’s doing something to me when you say kind words like these… I want to cry. It helps so much that you believe in me. I went for an early morning walk in the hills, and some anger came up against my younger sister and her husband, both constantly on my tail for “being too skinny” and “there is something wrong with you” and “fat people are happier and more content” and “fat people live longer” obviously justifying their lifestyle. Argh! I don’t even know why I let it bother me! I just want to tell them to keep stuffing their faces and leave me alone!!! This is so beneath me… I don’t even want to bother!!! Argh!
–B
Why, if they are so much “happier and more content”, do they need to bicker so much?
Bernadette, jeez, what I nightmare trip! Hopefully matters will be in hand in officialdom and you’ll get your belongings back intact. It’s wonderful that you had such a connection with your brother and new sister in law. I hear that it’s challenging for you dealing with your in laws and it does seem like strange, inverted logic to be told being slender is bad for you or fatter is better, or whatever. They might be jealous. It sounds though like you have good perspective on your family dynamics.
David, thanks for your words of support!
My luggage was delivered to me two days after my arrival. I was told I could get reimbursed for the items I needed to buy after 24 hours. It sounds like another nightmarish process, so I don’t think I will bother…
Yes, I love the connection with my brother, it has always been there to a certain extent, even in childhood. I am glad his new wife is kind; he deserves to be loved. He has had a hard few years; first his younger son died of a rare disease at age 26, and three years later his first wife died. My wish for him is that he now has love and happiness forever with his second wife.
You are right, there is an element of jealousy between my younger sister and me. It looks like she is always in competition with me – why I don’t know, she has so much more than me, it seems! I sometimes have a sense of inadequacy next to her; she has accomplished so much. The jealousy on my part started when she was born when I was not even three. It is very deeply rooted. I felt she took my mother away from me. I felt that mom loved her more than me and that she was her favorite. She was stronger during childhood than me, she did what she wanted, while I was scared and played the “good girl” and conformed to my parents’ needs. Considering all of this, I have more reasons to be jealous. Sometimes I think being slim is the only thing I have over her, and maybe that’s what she is focused on and is jealous of me. It is another dynamic that I’m sick and tired off and want to resolve in therapy. Still more to come, I’m sure!
Are you at the retreat?
–Bernadette
Hi, I’m glad you’ve got your luggage problem sorted. That must have been a relief.
No, I’m not at the retreat. My one and only retreat experience was back in ’92 and I would love to be able to go again. I have been struggling with health issues that has kept me on the breadline for years, but I hope to be able to make it over again some time. That health issue (chronic fatigue syndrome), I am more and more convinced is related to sexual abuse issues and I’ll talk about that probably in another post. It’s something I’ve been wanting to talk about.
Your comment made me think about my relationship with my own sister, who was 4 years younger than me and also had a weight issue. In fact she was morbidly obese. Since over eating is a known defense against sexual abuse, I’m convinced that she was also abused by my father. That he went from me to her. She died a few years ago – my father did also – and these are issues that I have never spoken about with anyone in my family yet. I doubt if I had spoken to her and told her of what I’m sure about, she would have given it any credence and would probably have got angry. She had a kind of easygoing (if that’s the right word) relationship with my father that I couldn’t relate to and I believe she was in a lot of denial. As I said in a separate post to Jack, I was never close to her and we lived completely separate lives in separate countries. I did get closer to her when we started relating about finding our respective birth mothers, but that closeness didn’t remain or evolve. I’ve never had any feelings about her in therapy either, I’ve realised. I just remember a dream I had of her a couple of days after she died, where I saw her slender and pretty like I remember her as a child, wearing a pretty dress and running through green fields, radiating joy and happiness.
Otto, I will help you with this tomorrow. I’m not sure if that might worry you more or less ( 🙂 ) but either way we will get through it! See you in the morning! Gretch
Still in Switzerland. Nothing brings up memories from the past better than hanging out with family and in the surroundings of your childhood!
I had a dream last night: **I was a baby and a friend I had in high school tickled me under the arms. What she thought was funny, was pure agony for me. I screamed in pain and terror but she didn’t stop! She kept tickling me and was laughing. It was sheer cruelty and torture for me. I screamed so much until I was in shock and couldn’t scream no more. I was completely helpless and powerless against her cruelty.**
This “friend” in high school used to scrape the backs of my hands against the wall until they were bloody. The feelings for me were similar to the ones in the dream. I felt tortured by her. I was helpless and powerless against her cruelty, not just physically but more so emotionally. Similar dynamics as in the dream, she thought it was a funny joke, while I was suffering under her cruelty. When my mother asked me about my hands, I lied and said I had fallen down. But she didn’t buy it – nobody falls onto the backs of their hands. So I was forced to tell her the truth, and she called the school and complained. The physical abuse stopped after that, but my “friend” kept torturing me emotionally by ridiculing and belittling me. I still can see her malicious smile and crazy eyes. I was afraid of her. She was supposed to be my friend but it turns out, she was just a bully! Bitch!
Fast forward to the present: the recent criticisms from my younger sister and her husband (“you’re too skinny! There is something wrong with you! Fat people are happier and more content! Fat people live longer!”) brought up similar feelings for a brief moment. Helpless and powerless against their absurd statements. They thought they were “only joking” but for me it felt cruel and insane and hurtful. For a moment I was in the same feeling of being tortured and helpless in the face of their cruelty. But the next day, during a walk in the hills, I got angry and said out loud: you are wrong! Keep your absurd ideas to yourselves! Leave me alone! Fuck off! This, coupled with Gretchen’s support, her believing in me that I would stay true to myself through this, started the ball rolling. I took back my power. I did not buy into their absurdity. I did not see and judge myself through their eyes. I didn’t lose myself. Interestingly enough, when I saw my sister and her husband again just last night, all of a sudden they were very kind and friendly to me, no more judging or belittling. I must have changed the dynamics somehow between us just by stating my truth by saying it out loud in the hills. I also think that standing my ground in the present allowed the memory and past feelings to be revealed in the dream.
I have learned something important about me through this. I learned that in reality I am not powerless. I CAN reach out for help and support (writing on the blog); and I CAN let in kindness and encouragement (from Gretchen); and I CAN see the truth in the present (there is nothing wrong with me; they are absurd); and I CAN have a healthy reaction (get angry and state my truth). All this allowed the old memories and feelings to surface in the dream, which allowed me to make a mental and emotional connection and hopefully resolve some of the old pain.
I don’t remember being tickled until in shock as a baby, but I trust the process.
–Bernadette
Day 4 of the retreat. wanted to say stuff but couldn’t. The voodoo doctor came up to ask me how i was doing as we were leaving. I told him I am going to drive back to L.A. for phdkid’s farewell dinner. He is moving this week to Ohio this week for his new job. I feel like i will never see him again. I would have said this in group. I would have said i dont spend 10 minutes with him on any given week, though he only lives 10 miles from me and Z and 5 minutes from my job and he is at our house every saturday.
I was able to cry in my bed a little after the group, seeing my kids faces and other general sad things, related to talk about friendships etc in group. I wanted to say how i had not had friends in 40 years, and there wasnt much chance that i wver would again. CP was in the big group room writing on the floor while i was crying.i have my bed along with sm and d. I cried in that bed last night and stretched and pushed up from every inch of my body, my feelings for 2 hours last night. And scream and moan, and i started to sing along with the song i was listening to at the end, now i feel foolish about doing that. SM and CP were chatting near me a good amount of the time last night, and it felt kind of good to hear their voices as i was crying. I am not sure but I feel like the voodoo doctor or his tempstress mentress had assigned CP and SM to death watch or something.
anyway, cried for 2 hours last night, also comforting myself maybe by rubbing my feet against eachy other. Cried about being jerked out of my somewhat-comfortable,actually GREAT existence in Hollywood and moved to Long Beach in. stopping
someone wanted to print something. anyway,i described great existence before, aunt and uncle next door in the hotel they managed.this kbd is shit. little 3rd grade girlfriend, boys club with friend or 2, school where 2 girls had already been 3rd-grade attracted to me. Aunt took me for walks thye little chiuauasus dogs. I have a picture of me in our front yard, back to the gate, SMILING. I was somewhat in 7th Heaven at this point, recovered from losing mom at 10 months and being sent away to live apart from my mom’s teenage sister, my brother, the little dog, my grandmother–to live with my murderous uncle and his stone-cold wife, ignored for long periods in my basinette. Anyway,in 7th Heaven in Hollywood, ripped out of there by my grandmother and moved to Long Beach to be left alone even more than i had been in our house in Hollywood. (my aunt was next door in hollywood, but she was not with me 24/7 or the like. Anyway, short version finally got my stuff together in long beach. 4th grade was a bitch but 5th grade teacher made it her business to give me special attention, so i started to thrive. Then my brother and i were caught shoplfting and i think the effect was that we ended up in military school for a year, which destroyed me for the rest of my life.
ok could see girls in junior high school in 7th grade, and do very little about it, and they were all so happy and i was destroyed forever. Now cut to the end. Larry want use the pc and not much more to say. cried 2 hours yesterday and felt destroyed today. no advance in mood, retreat in mood. nothing goi8ng to help. Someone can say they went to PI every day to cry for weeks or monthys. I will nhjever recoverf. njever. i treat my wife like shit, and this will never end. I cannt see my acting out on her at all, as in GIVE ME SOMETHING GRAMMA. well thats all. drive to la after buddy. missed lunch but only sat with people at breakfast do to someone’s kind act of asking me to sit with him.
Otto, it seems you are going through some heavy feelings. I’m glad you are able to cry. Are you able to go back to the retreat after you said goodbye to your PhD kid? It would be good if you could speak up in group. It would be so empowering for you! I keep rooting for you!
–Bernadette
Day 222 of the Retreat. I am now back at Retreat, back from L.A. Thanks Swiss Lady,I really needed that encouragement. Tire started losing small amount of air going to L.A yesterday, and I took a chance that it would not blow out coming back this morning. Noisy restaurant with terrible Korean barbecue, but good to see the 2 kids together and laughing.
Day 222 of the Retreat. I am now back at Retreat, back from L.A. Thanks Swiss Lady,I really needed that. Tire started losing small amount of air going to L.A yesterday, and I took a chance that it would not blow out coming back this morning. Noisy restaurant with terrible Korean barbecue, but good to see the 2 kids together and laughing. Of course it was a nightmare driving.They picked this Restaurant in the black hole of traffic around National,Pico, Sawtelle. 405, and Sepulveda. I had walked into the pool the previous day with my phone in my trunks, and it died; and pay phones are hard to find these days,so i got the directions in email from z from this pc and email before i left. So I finally got to the restaurant after going the wrong way at
National and behind many cars forever, and cursing Z loudly and other jackasses trying to cut in front of me. (Z not in car). I was pissed off that once again that she was not looking out for me. and she also thought she said 7pm meet at the restaurant, but her email had said 6. doubly pissed when i finally got parked at restaurant and no one there and i had to drive to my job and
Call her from there. then on way home, she came in my rental car, i told her how i had no desire to be around people, and she is utterly unable to listen to me, juust interjects you are afraid of people. no duh of course, but i am fucking saying i have no desire to be around people. argument number 23,556 over the 40 year time span. Went to breakfast, sat alone since i could see no spot at a table wkth people, now rushing off to find a spot to sit in group.. MOM! MOM! HELP ME!
Otto, hang in there. And please do speak up in group! You will feel so much better, even if you only say a little bit. Just imagine the feeling after – empowered! I keep my fingers crossed for you…
–Bernadette
Bernadette, re our conversation about hyper vigilance / sexual abuse. I believe my own hyper vigilance has shown recently with this friend of mine I was attracted to and that when I got turned down by her, instead of just reacting with “ok, she’s not interested, I’ll find someone else who is” and forgetting about her, I was endlessly mulling over things she had said to me, things I might have said or done to put her off. Well… actually that might be just obsessing connected to feelings that were being triggered. Not quite sure. Hyper vigilance says to me an alertness about your environment above and beyond what is really needed. But again… how does that cross over with natural sensitivity. I a suppose a response arising from natural sensitivity would always be appropriate?
I did make what seemed to me a new and significant connection recently. I remember I told you about a picture book that terrified me as a child, with an image of a silhouette of an adult in the doorway of the child’s bedroom at night. A few weeks ago I was very down with chronic fatigue symptoms, and I can’t remember how – I think by speaking aloud about it – got into a big old feeling about my father’s abuse (“please don’t daddy”), which quite significantly lifted my energy. So I decided to grab my camera and go out and do some photography in the dramatic evening light. After a while I settled into capturing shots of cyclists along a pathway silhouetted against the intense back-light. At the time, I made no connection between the feeling and what I was doing. But shortly after, the penny dropped that I have had a longstanding fascination with capturing silhouettes in photography and that it was connected with this image in the picture book. I went round my house and noticed that half of the pictures that I had framed and put on the walls, including one in my bedroom, were shots of silhouettes of people or trees. I was aghast at this connection and at the same time absolutely fascinated by it. That I would be drawn to creating beauty from something horrific in my past that I had been totally unconscious of. I was trying to somehow draw attention to this significant event in my past. I’ve heard repeatedly about how artists will draw from their own unconscious for the material in their work, but this is the first time that I’ve really encountered it in myself. Having said that, there is still no actual memories. But I guess it’s a stepping stone.
David, the story about your sister touched me; thanks for sharing. How very sad her life must have been! Having to deny the sexual abuse and keeping down the feelings by overeating is a horrible way to live. I agree with you, she would not have acknowledged it, if you had addressed the sexual abuse with her; an angry reaction sounds like a typical defense. Also her ‘easygoing’ way with your father sounds like denial big time. I’m so sad for her. What did she die of? And did she find her birth mother? Did you? The dream you had of your sister after she died is so beautiful! What did you think about it or how did it make you feel?
My little sister is not obese, she’s just a bit heavy and still on the healthy spectrum. Two of my older sisters are also heavy; it seems genetic. I have always made a point to watch my weight and exercise, and I always get some stupid comments from someone when I visit home. When I call them fat, it’s out of anger because they call me “too thin” – which I’m not. Argh, here I go again talking about such trivial stuff, I’m just so annoyed! I must let it go…
Interesting points about hyper vigilance / obsession / sensitivity. I agree with you that your reaction to your friend’s rejection might be obsession, rather than hyper vigilance. I used to do exactly the same, going over every word in a conversation after spending time with someone, but never got to a satisfying answer. It is trying to find fault with oneself. But the truth is, sometimes it’s nobody’s fault when things don’t work out.
On the other hand, hyper vigilance is trying to stay in control in any situation, I think. Always being alert and making sure to avoid any potential surprises or attacks. It is exhausting to be that way, I know from experience. A female friend of mine used to have this haunted look in her eyes when she was among people, frantically trying to see/hear everything. After she dealt with her sexual abuse issues, that all disappeared. I think both hyper vigilance and obsession are reactions to an underlying feeling/problem.
Sensitive on the other hand, I think is a good thing. I’d rather be sensitive than cold or callous. I’d rather feel empathy and compassion than apathy and indifference. I’d rather hurt and cry in response to seeing something sad than laugh it off. I’d rather find common ground and similarities with others than look for differences and separation. In spite of having suffered as a sensitive child, I still wouldn’t want it the other way.
Chronic fatigue – I don’t know anything about it. How interesting that you think it’s connected with sexual abuse. Do tell! I only know of myself that I get more tired than the average person, especially after I have spent time with a bunch of people. It wipes me out. I don’t think it is considered chronic fatigue though, I’m just mentally and emotionally overwhelmed by people. Which could be because I am sensitive and take everything to heart…while others can just brush things off easily and preserve their energy.
Last but not least – how very fascinating about your photography! You must have intuitively wanted to resolve something inside by capturing a dark silhouette in an image. Talk about about subconscious creativity! It is indeed a very important connection you made. I am curious how things will develop from here for you, as far as recovery of memory goes. Keep me posted.
I’m loving our conversations, David. They make me think about stuff that I normally wouldn’t. Cheers!
–Bernadette
Bernadette, my sister died in a traffic accident in Canada. She was a truck driver with her partner and when they were forced to swerve to avoid a car that had drifted into their lane, the truck plunged 25 feet off a bridge. She was thrown from the cab into a river. And this was at night and in winter, so she would have died almost instantly. She was sleeping in the cab at the time, so would have probably known nothing of what was happening, mercifully. Her body has never been found. Yes, I thought the dream I had of her was beautiful as well. What I thought about it at the time was this was her way of communicating to me that this was where she now was (wherever that is), and that she was happy. Yes, she did find her birth mother and so did I, back in 2000. It was an amazing experience! What propelled me on my search was a feeling I had in a session, a very deep feeling of missing her. And I was surprised at how fresh it felt, like we had only just been separated. But I her found in Toronto, where I was born, with just a letter and a phone call. Incredible really, that it happened so fast! What happened there is a long story. We had a turbulent relationship that lasted for about 5 years until I broke it off. She wrote a play based on our reunion, that I believe was actually performed in Vancouver, which portrayed me in a very negative and untruthful light. Reading that play felt like being kicked in the stomach, I felt very hurt and betrayed and I never spoke to her again after that. She’s since emailed me calling for a “truce”, but I’ve never felt a desire to reconnect.
I started writing a lot about chronic fatigue syndrome, but I kind of lost my way with it and will try again in a separate post tomorrow. I liked your distinction between sensitivity and hyper vigilance and agree with what you say. I’m also loving our conversation 🙂
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is something I got diagnosed with in ’93. It’s a not a good name or description as it is much more than being “just” extremely tired all the time. There is chronic insomnia as well, muscle pain, flu symptoms and difficulty concentrating. For very long periods it’s been hell! With me it got triggered by a flu virus. There is no known cause, officially, and no cure. It’s extremely debilitating. It’s kind of like living in a bubble, and some times that bubble goes to the edge of your bed, sometimes the front door, sometimes the end of the street. As long as you stay in the bubble you can look and feel reasonably ok. But go outside it and you start looking and feeling sick very fast. I have had very long periods of being completely dysfunctional with it, but over time it has improved and I’ve been able to have something of a life. I’ve been able to live with it rather than under it. Last year though, I had a bad relapse. A lot of stressful things happened all at once that I couldn’t avoid: a house move was forced on me, I had several operations for kidney stones, I’d been working a lot and playing in a band as well, which was fun, but intense. This relapse put me into a lot of fear and grief about how I was going to survive and about loosing more time, more of my life. About 6 months ago or so I got into excruciating primals where I felt my father had raped me, in reaction to all this, plus my female friend triggering me. I was working with a nutritionist at the time for my health issues and she advised me to get an adrenal stress profile test done, which measures cortisol levels, at various points in the day. Cortisol, as you may know, is a stress hormone. The most telling reading is the morning one, as cortisol gets released then as a primer when you start your day. When I got the results back, all the points were high across the day. But the first morning one was literally off the chart. It was so high, there was just a line coming down from off the top of the chart connecting with the second point. I was diagnosed as being in the first stage of the stress response, which is ‘alarm’. The other two are ‘resistance’ and ‘collapse’. After a few months and many primals dealing with the sexual abuse, I did another test and this time the first, morning reading was back in the normal range, though the other points were still high. Generally though there had been a drop in the cortisol levels. And I’m sure feeling about the abuse assisted in that. I said that I thought childhood sexual abuse caused my health problems, but maybe I should qualify that by saying it was the sum total of the trauma in my childhood. I believe my ability to handle stress in the present has been screwed up by huge primal pain – if the cup is already full, it only needs a thimble full to push things over the edge, is another way of saying it. Or to borrow from Barry’s analogy in the leading article on this blog post , after escaping the lion, instead of going home to a loving family to heal, I find myself lost out on the savannah with no idea which direction “home” is. So I believe that primal pain has, to some degree, locked me into the sympathetic, non-healing state, super stressed out with these super high cortisol levels creating chronic fatigue. Cortisol affects the whole body. All body systems bow down to it, so you can’t fight it without digging a deeper hole for yourself. According to my nutritionist, only three things can lower cortisol: sleep, exercise and meditation. And I would add crying as a forth. I hope this has made some kind of sense, it’s the first time I’ve tried to lay out what I think is really behind my health issues.
Your own issues with fatigue may well be an result of repressed pain as well, it’s just you don’t have it as bad as me. But I can understand feeling wiped out by people. When I took on teaching as a job, I had no idea how energy consuming it was going to be. People come to me with a lot of energy and enthusiasm to learn the guitar and I feel I have to all the time meet that energy and then go one notch higher. I feel I have to give a lot, especially with kids.
How is your trip going? It was great to hear that there was a shift with your in laws and they were friendlier and nicer in general. Maybe your staying true to yourself has made them respect you more.
David, I was quite shocked to learn how your sister died. What a horrible way to die. I’m glad you had the beautiful dream, and I agree with you that it was a message letting you know that she is happy where she is now. That is some consolation. How disappointing about your birth mother, though. I don’t understand why she would portray you in such a negative way in her play. My first thought was that she felt guilty for giving you up at the first place but couldn’t deal with it, so she twisted things around to make you look like the bad guy. Did she have an explanation? I’m sorry you lost her again…
Thanks for explaining chronic fatigue syndrome so thoroughly; I see it is a lot more complicated than just “being tired”. I get a sense how much you suffer during a relapse. It sounds like the living hell. It must take a lot of mental strength to keep going. It is incredibly amazing that feeling about your sexual abuse would show a drop in the cortisol level. Truly amazing how the body/mind connection works. I hope you are taking your nutritionist’s advice and sleep and exercise and meditate a lot to keep your cortisol levels low. I don’t think I have CFS although I can relate to some of your symptoms.
I don’t tolerate stress very well, and I have decided it’s not worth it to make myself physically sick because of stress. I left my job because the stress level was too high and now I’m looking for a new direction. Although, at the moment I’m feeling extremely ‘lost in the world’ (confused as to where I belong; unable to decide on a direction). I also relate to the teaching experience. Before I came to LA, I was a Kindergarten Teacher and experienced just what you described. The high energy from the children and having to bring my energy level up to theirs in order to be a good teacher, consequently always being extremely tired. Recently I’ve been feeling completely incapable to make any progress in any direction. I think that the last job really pushed me to the edge of my strengths and brought up the feelings I’ve been dealing with recently. Connecting to each separate incident in the past is taking me to the very limit of my physical, mental, and emotional capabilities. It seems that is what I need to feel these days. Very exhausting. To the point where wanting to die is the only way out.
I’m taking a break from concentrating on heavy feelings as I’m spending time with my family, there are a lot of distractions. I agree with you, as soon as I found my own truth, I presented myself differently and got a better response from them. The last two days were easy; gardening, talking with sister, writing, walking in the hills and hiking in the mountains. The hike yesterday with younger brother, niece and her half-sister was easy going, no tensions, and I felt quite energized. Besides that, the views were absolutely gorgeous.
That said, feelings of course don’t take a break. The other night I had a nightmare about being homeless and wandering around on the streets half naked, narrowly avoiding an accident and having to hide from people because I was ashamed. It’s so clearly brought on by my current situation of indecision and lack of direction in real life. I will have to focus on this one of these days but part of me is resisting it. Sunday will be another challenge…family gathering! It is almost certain that some feelings will get triggered!!
–Bernadette
Bernadette, I actually remember my birth mother saying to me that she didn’t feel any guilt about giving me up, and she seemed to be almost proud of that fact. The main feeling I remember her dealing with was seeing me as an adult meant she now had to give up all hope of having “her baby”. But she took that feeling out on me for quite a while, dumping her anger on me and till we got to the bottom of what it was really about, which was tough going. She was (and probably still is) a therapist, so we were able to be quite open with each other. I remember my visit to see her in Toronto as being both joyful and revelatory in some ways and also very tough. Her partner told me my stay with them was the most painful experience of his life. He seemed to feel left out of the loop and also threatened by me. I mean, I don’t know what I was doing to him. He must have had a pretty charmed life if I was the worst thing that ever happened to him. Well, there is just so much there I could talk about. The play was something she wouldn’t tell me about for a long time. I kept asking her what she doing and she said working on a play about ghosts, but that I wouldn’t like it. Finally, she sent me the script and I was really shocked. At one point in the lay the ghost of my dead birth father comes to me and tries to encourage me to commit suicide by taking sleeping pills. It seemed like she was saying what she really thought of me through this play, that she thought I was completely hopeless and should just kill myself. Well, for me after long periods of struggle with her, it was like the final straw and I never spoke to her again after reading that play. Maybe she had guilt that she wasn’t admitting to. Maybe it was more of her anger coming out, I don’t know.
Yes, you are right that CFS has been a living hell! For very long periods. This relapse has been very hard. I really thought I would never go back to things being as bad as they have been the last year. But being able to feel feelings has been hugely helpful and I have been able to “use” this bad experience to make a lot of therapeutic progress. I’ve kept going forwards despite relapsing. I do keep up with the nutritionist’s recommendations, I practice qigong and meditate every day. My sleep has got a lot better was is key to recovery. So I’m feeling optimistic A couple of years ago I was running seven miles a day and going on long hiking trips, and I’m confident I’ll get back to that level of fitness.
I hear that you’re feeling direction-less at the moment. Is there a dream job that you can think of? Is there anything that you once loved to do that you could pick up again and maybe turn into a business idea? Sounds like you were going though a lot and maybe your trip to Switzerland has come at an opportune time to give you some breathing space and some distance. I have not been feeling many intense feelings for a while now either, a couple of months, and I’m glad for the respite. Glad to hear that you’re enjoying time with your family now. I’ve never been to Switzerland but I’ve heard from many sources that the scenery is breathtaking.
In trouble with wife, she very hurt. yes i am an violent mean asshole in the way i treat her. Her actions over the years have also been painfully violent and mean, but not as you would normally think of them. I feel her actions are deadly to me. Of course, i had a big screaming primal in group today about how i was afraid my uncle was going to kill me along with some of the other baby pigeons in the pigeon coop. And that is how I see her, as my murderous uncle, as my give-nothing grandmother, and on and on. I don’t see her as a sweet person at all. Whatever, no real way to end this marriage because her actions with money leave us destitute most of the time. I feel bad for her, but i cannot see a way to repair this. My word for the retreat REMORSE, yes i hate that you spent 4 decades of your life with a sick bastard that i am, but you had your choices too, to move on. You always fail to recognize your major part in this suck-hole of shit we remain
in, and i want out of it, for my few remaining years. I cannot fix this and as I said, I feel bad bad bad.
thanks gretchen. you said you would help july 31. i dont even remember about what. I am drained, just want to lay in bed with the dog and cat and stare at the ceiling. am still not sure whether to put replies at bottom of blog or at the point of first reply. whatever. thanks. i will be miserable for the rest of my life. i will wallow in misery’s safety. I will say i’m ok when someone asks me how i am doing and when they have passed by i will mutter under my breath “i feel like shit”. i could sit with people at dinner for a while and laugh a little but chomping at the bit to rush out of there and hide. REMORSE/? i will never ever be able to right the horrible things i have done in my life and i will be plagued by those forever. so much pain, never ending pain until the end. so tired. this is also diabetes.
Maybe i go listen to ipod for a while. got an idea of what to get secret pal, but too drained to go into sb. ignoring him as i was ignored for so many years but the voodoo doctor was playing with his pins again and we both ended up at Pierre La Fondes today and laughed at the funny sayings on the greeting cards. and a little conversation.
Bernadette, so good to hear about your trip. You are marvelous.
Day before the last day of the retreat. How can these people be so happy? I laughed with some of them last night at the party, but I feel nothing, nothing. Except more sadness and I know it is the end of my life, and the devastation of my life will never change. As an aside, last night, IU overheard some guys talking about a therapist that i haven’t seen in a long time, And how his brand of therapy had been, lets give it a name, maybe…not on point? which i kind of felt at the time, at the old Friday night “big groups”. As usual, that time was a horrible point in my life, oldest son drinking and drugging and picking on the little son, Z coming home from her small group always angry for some reason. i could listen to some Led Zep at big group, off by myself in one of the little rooms and cry the tiniest bit. Anyway, maybe i got a little out of the therapy, i have no idea. At least at some point, or maybe concurrently, cant remember, Mark and Eva were doing those Friday groups, and i loved them. I guess that must have been later on, because Eva was still theraping me as i was being shipped off to Tucson. anyway, PT has been a trip, very difficult trip. Well, this is almost over, and i mean my life. Soon no more pain. Damn. what a fuckiing bitch. And now tomorrow, i go back to my wife, whom i care for but am unable to give anything more to, as i feel she has drained the life out of me. She is or has just dropped off phd kid at LAX, on his way to his new job in Ohio,and as i write this right now, at this minute, I am so fucking sad.
please no one be on computer. good. hopeless. hopeless that i will ever be able to do anything about the hopelessness. my less-than-one-minute speak in group today. came to the insight. i need to get out of here. out of this group. out of this retreat. no help from barry. k and t wont leave the big group room so at least i can have a few tears in my bunk about this HORRIFIC HUGE LIFE-ALTERING FEELING. how trite i say. my hopelessness about fixing problems i have with barbara. cant do anything about it. cant do anything about anything. no way to fix the bad birth i had. every woman i see, my mind immediately goes to the image of smushing my face into their “birthing” parts. everytime, for long long time now. breech birth? i dont know. mom! mom! are you there? i am shutting down. i have to get out of here. HELP! HELP! well not going to feel
this today, that’s for sure. fear of being noisy. fear of people seeing me and having heard what i said in group and what i am saying now about women and their undercarriage, i feel dirty, ashamed. but that ever-present feeling of hopelessness, this is the anchor, the dark spot on my brain. some pretty girl want to use the computer. i just want her body. i got to get out of here. of course this birth feeling got chained up with painful feelings of girls and sex in teenage years, or the impossiblity of even getting sex. well to say the least i feel fucking hopeless. MOM! MOM! where’d you go? I was in sync with you before, now there is nothing but fear and suffocation, pounding heart, giving up, getting ready to give up life, that’s fine, this is the end, can’t care anymore, how could i, there is nothing i can do. stop. go back to bunk and see if tears. still have to get gift for buddy. dont want to go into sb. hopeless about it. fuck.fuck lunch. food dont help anymore with the pain. get out of this hopeless marriage and life.
Otto, Barry and I were just discussing how much you are dealing with right now . I’m thinking it might be helpful for you to be with me in my group tomorrow. Call it an instinct! Gretch 🙂
bark bark. ok says otto
anyway went back to dorm and able to cry enough. not enough to feel better. i feel good that i did not shove food down mg gullet to kill the pain. let me in weooh. good 60’s song to cry by. seeing my 30 year old aunt sitting on the beach in long beach, needing her body. touch. i don’t know how much touch she had given me when i was a baby, and she was my teenage “mom”. babies you have to touch sometimes, to feed or change diaper. then in later years, they grow up by themselves, as Homer Simpson once said. needing my aunt and however she had numerous baby people of her own now. seeing the hotdogs wrapped in aluminum that my grandma had packed for the beach. food was her gift, her “touch”,not much.seeing my grandma’s face very briefly, which was the amount of seconds she was present to give anything good to me.some insight about barb, it isnt how little i get out of her (which is old feeling) cant remember the other one, too much talking in Santa Maria lobby to focus. Leslie has been exceptionally kind to me the last few days, it means the world to me. hope your brother gets better, Leslie.
good buddying session. some of my answers wanted to come out in full body expression. last session with barry was like that “what the fuck is this shit” about the horrors of my long life. today, “what question do you find yourself asking more than any other?” i forget my answer but also i wanted to shout and express with my arms, ” get me the fuck out of here!” something that i think it is reasonable to say goes hand and hand with “what the fuck is this shit..(that i am mired in)”. cant bring myself to shout in the meditation chapel.
went to sb to get the gift. xenophobia. cant wait to get the fuck out of here. something going on with my bankaccount fraud wierd activity whatever.
> Otto,
> thanks for mentioning me in the last group, I am very glad I could be of some help, and you mentioning me felt specially nice as at that moment i was feeling kind of useless.
> I am sorry to read here how hard it all is for you, but things definitely seem to be happening in your therapy and I hope so much you will get some relief soon from all that pain.
> hope you will be there on saturday, if Phil manages to paste this on the blog in time.
> have a nice trip home Phil!!
> David, it sounds indeed like you and bernadette have a cfs related to your feelings, but I just wanted to let you know a Belgian doctor discovered some years ago, there is also a common form of cfs that has been proven to be caused by a certain kind of bacteria in the intestines.
> that bacteria produce a waste product that is toxic and affects all kinds of body parts.
> I seem to remember certain antibiotics really help in those cases.
> it is a very sad story about your sister, but what a nice dream.
> Margaret
Margaret, CFS is a really an umbrella term for an illness and I’m sure many people have it for different reasons. For some people, just changing their diet cures them. Chronic fatigue is part of so many illnesses, people with multiple sclerosis are chronically fatigued. It’s kind of a meaningless term. I’d be interested in what this Belgian doctor has to say. Maybe you could post a link? Or would it be in French? Which I can’t read. I have tried so many things over the years… When I get very fatigued now I do what I can to connect with any underlying feeling and recently that has meant connecting with feelings about abuse from my father. That alleviates the fatigue considerably, often, which makes it logical to me that the syndrome is connected with old feelings. However, like with depression and anxiety, the fatigue comes back… My hope is the more I feel, the more my overall health will improve , providing as well that I can avoid relapses. Though that’s not always possible. Thanks for thinking of me.
So how was the retreat? We want a full report! 🙂
Margaret,
I am in LAX at the gate. Sad to be leaving and that it’s over for this year, but I have to go.
The retreat pretty much went for me as I wanted and expected. It was great to see you and everyone and I hope you enjoy the rest of your stay.
Phil
To all and sundrie:- I have just returned from my visit to the north of England Oldham Lancashire to be exact, primarily to scatter my brothers ashes as he had requested. I traveled up with my nephew Mark, his sister Louise, her daughter Luella, picking up her son Kito who traveled from London to Manchester where we picked him up. From there we spent the night in an hotel in Oldham before meeting my two sisters and my oldest sisters husband and a lady friend of my brother.
I met my little sister at the designated bus stop close to the site we were going to scatter the ashes. When the bus arrived I saw these two old ladies get off the bus and I asked one of them is they had come from Uppermill where my little sister lives. One of them turned round and asked, why I was asking and I said that I was waiting for someone. Who she asked and I gave the name …. “Jack” she said I thought you were some old man and wanting to get on the bus. “Wow, Mavis I shrieked and we hugged and kissed. But I was so surprised that she looked so old and she likewise saw me as a very old old man. We both laughed not having recognized one another. That set the mood for the rest of the day.
We then met up with all the others, 9 all together, and then set off to the site where were were going to scatter my little brothers ashes. My big sister read a poem that Ian my brother loved and often quoted.
Lesuire by W. H. Davies
What is this life if full of care
We have no time to stand and stare
No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep and cows
No time to see where woods we pass
Where squirrels hide their nuts and grass
No time to see in broad daylight
Streams full of stars, like skies at night
No time to turn at beauty’s glance
And what her feet, how they can dance
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began
A poor life this if full of care
We have no time to stand and stare
I was the first to take a hand full of his ashes and scatter them to the air, then began to cry . Other followed and then the last ones where his children and suddenly I saw Kito crying also. I walked back up the hiil with him with my arms on his shoulder and suddenly felt very connected to him. When he stopped I asked why he cried and he said, “I saw my granddad the Christmas before he died” I then just hugged him. The whole event was so moving and such a beautiful farewell to my little brother Ian.
Then we all went to a local restaurant and had a meal where me and my two sisters reminisced about our childhoods and how each of us saw it differently. The whole day was so memorable and I just know I will remember it for sometime, maybe for the rest of my days.
After that I bid goodbye to my two sisters, sort of knowing I may never see them again. On the drive back I discussed the whole trip up there and our final day of what remained of my little brother. Just everyone remarked on what a closeness we each of us made to one another.
Such a glorious if somewhat sad day. Jack
Jack, I thought this a very nice and ‘balanced’ account. You do not make it ‘all about you’ but gave a total picture of it. I like the poem very much also, living here in the West of Ireland I can relate though I have to say it seems/feels more relevant to my parents generation or our own time as kids. But it seems to me maybe in the past we ‘ignored’ Nature but always kind of knew or felt it was ‘there’ now I am not so sure at all. Nature seems to be in huge trouble and I can see it here more……………..well because I have something to compare it to as in 50 years ago. So many signs of nature dying or dead as and as far as the weather goes I suppose the phrase “don’t get me started” comes to mind. But on the bright side I DID see a sunrise yesterday (after 3 weeks looking) though the day turned out crap in the end high winds howling around the house (in August!) and cold,,,,,,,,,,,,I have yet to see a sunset and I do look for it every evening. People would like to think this is all ‘normal’ to me it is not and has little or nothing to do with so called ‘climate change’ expect just most more ‘lies’ on that. To come back to some of my arguments with Daniel a culture based on huge lies can only go down and we are………………as far as the ‘terror events’ it seems now they go for ‘small’ ones they for sure are harder to show are hoaxes but I would be very suspicious. The one in Munich, Germany was a ‘small’ one relativly but has been ‘proved’ to be connected to Nice, France which was clearly a hoax. And what are the chances of the SAME photographer/journalist being at BOTH places to ‘document’ the event to supply all the ‘official’ photos and there ARE no other photos………….no CCTV, no cell phone photos nothing at all well because ‘nothing at all’ actually happened! If this is not a world of lies I don’t know what would qualify but it does make it hard to live in it. For me anyway most people seem to drift through it with no great concern……..
Patrick: I thought that was a nice comment you made about my trip up north.
The problem about hoax and fakery I personally find a bit strange. I just wonder at your need to be even concerned about it all.
For me, I would only be concerned if, in one way or another, I was involved. So far, I am not.
Jack
Jack – to me it’s like how could anyone NOT be concerned? I mean I think it’s pretty big if a lot of the ‘headlines’ in the News are deliberatly constructed just to ‘fool’ people. Though it seems I am a bit ‘unbalanced’ in this way like I am very often concerned with ‘bigger’ things than myself or things ‘outside’ myself. To me it’s a ‘good’ quality I see no reason to hold back on it or second guess it too much plus the way I look at it that’s ME even if ‘me’ is to be looking outside of myself. I have found in the last year or two when I give that full reign or just allow myself to follow my interests/instincts wherever they lead I sort of can’t go astray. On the other hand I am sure it can be annoying or seem ‘what’s this guy on about’ like with my older brother here I see that from the other side. Like he is concerned pretty much ONLY with stuff ‘outside’ himself, politics sport etc etc.
This kind of conditioning is deep in us like the Catholic religion at least when we were growing up always saw ‘outside’ yourself as virtuose and ‘inside’ as self indulgent or whatever. Plus having to work like slaves left no room or time for ‘inside’ stuff much either. Another reason I have had such a hard time with ‘primal’ like always in the background in my mind I should be DOING something, making money, making a difference etc etc. So I become more aware of that and don’t pooh pooh it all together. Still to me at least it’s like I can ONLY be myself I have spent a lot of time NOT being myself so better just go with what interests me or what ‘turns me on’
Like here most people have their ‘small’ concerns but I am sort of all about the weather is messed up how can people sit like the proverbial frogs in hot water that is getting hotter but don’t notice except here it is getting colder and colder……………still it seems I would not be ‘happy’ whatever was happening hotter, colder almost makes no difference it just feels WRONG. In that way I am not ‘comfortable’ in the world the envelope enclosing me is not with me and I suppose the sky and the weather itself is a good proxy for what ‘surrounds’ me as that is what it actually does…………
To be clear when I wrote “Like here most people have their ‘small’ concerns” I was thinking of ‘here’ in Ireland not ‘here’ on the blog though I suppose it could apply to either ‘place’…
Thanks for sharing that touching story Jack.
Larry: Thanks
Jack
Thanks Margarette. Back to the grind for me. kid gone to chicago. will watch the lobster tonight on hbo.
not going to group. too too much already. hasta la vista, margarette and phil. watching 2 mules for sister sara. clint eastwood and shirley maclaine. lobster watch tonight with wife dog cat
depressed and, as usual, wake up from nap more tired, and realizing how little time left. whoopee.
You can come to my group tomorrow at ten if you want. G.
> David,
> I don’t have a link, not even the name of the doctor, but it was an officially announced big breakthrough on the news, so I think you might be able to find stuff on the web even in English about it.
> and hey, smiley, I am from the Flemish speaking part, which is like Dutch.
> no long report about the retreat yet, feel too tired and hungry now, and have saturday and sunday group coming up here in LA still and some sessions and another satruday group..
> it was a fine retreat, with a lot of important stuff going on for a lot of people, I had some big early feelings as well, and did a lot of ‘casual’ sad crying just being in group and silently feeeling what I had to feel.
> i should write down reports rightaway as once dealt with feelings and their details tend to disappear out of my at hand memory..
> feelings about having to let go of so much bit by bit, accept the sadness and loss, and feelings about more and more aloneness, on a deeper and deeper level, also connected to possibly being about to die, probably diring birth, as in the feeling there was noone there, not even the absence of anyone, simply still just me and the possible coming end of me..
> a big one, only felt partially, and it needed a strong trigger in the present, which was having been accidentally left behind by close friends at breakfast, being stuck there on my own temporarily for being too blind to make my own way back.
> a lady of the retreat site brought me up to some oter primal people who luckily were still there, but I was shaking, and got into the feeling at the start of group with great help from Barry.
> M
Margaret said “but it was an officially announced big breakthrough on the news”………….which usually in my expierience means it is probably of no real importance or value. Culture of lying, culture of crying, culture of dying these seem to be abuot our only choices. Broken and ruined world, cyring about it at least sort of is honest or feels honest but no way to live. The saying “you can’t cry after spilt milk” well you can but it will not bring the milk back in the jar. Not putting it down but it has it’s limitations……….
Margaret, sounds like you got a lot out of the retreat. I remember when I went, at the end of it I found transitioning back to the workaday world quite difficult, quite a shock to my system. I didn’t know there was that language division in Belgian, I just assumed everyone spoke French for some reason. I will some searches for that Belgian Dr thanks.
> yeah Otto, please come to group tomorrow, that would be nice. I am not gone yet, next sunday will be flying home to my kitty cats.
> might see you on next saturday’s group as well..
> painful group for me today, but dear mr. B did help to make me feel a little better..
> M
No coming to group. too much work. now conflict already. z: do we own a toolbox. get your tools off the back porch. me to me in my room: go fuck yourself;. you got the front porch you can’t have everything. I have a pile of fucking bills all over my bedroom to go through; plus other stuff.she has her shit pushed in corners and not corners all over the house. I just scanned her fucking chiropracter checks in case they ask us why she has so many chiro visits. protect us. i washed sophie’s fungus. eat shit motherfucker. hope she did not hear me. is there any hope for this relationship. this is sunday morning. coming down from retreat or in fact going to hell depressed because of retreat. kid is gone to chicago on his own, he must be in shock and lonely. i am guilty of not checking in with him. always so much to do here. worked at work yesterday so i can pay for the car which is 2 months behind. go to hell bitch. no sex since i am too fucking timid or testosterone has gone down too much. i hate this fucking shit.
‘this is sunday morning. coming down from retreat’……………I sort of wondered Otto if you had that song in mind when you said that the song called ‘Sunday morning coming down’………….which was a serious fave of mine in the old days. An intenesly sad song with interesting words I especially liked picking out ‘my cleanest dirty shirt’ I can relate to that
It’s hard coming back from the retreat, to go back to being disconnected from the primal community, and having to go back to work tomorrow.
After several weeks apart it is great to see my wife and everything is fine between us. She has no complaints; the way we scheduled things this summer has worked out well.
I’m not at the moment feeling any energy to search for jobs or some type of career change as I was talking about. I’m sure the bad feeling will hit me again when I go to work. What I did do was create a Meetup group for Spanish-English language exchange as there isn’t one for my area. This was something I was thinking about before the retreat.
Now I have to see if people will join, and if not, how to get them to join. I have some enthusiasm about this, as it could be a good way to meet people and at the same time, work on my Spanish.
Maybe if I have enough things going on that can reduce the severity of my job as an issue bothering me.
Phil
good luck phil. i myself will be in extreme pain until tomorrow my job distracts me from this horrible bad feeling. glad to have talked with you. hasta la vista.
Otto,
I’m very glad to have seen you and spoken with you at the retreat. Sorry about your bad feeling. I want to say, in reaction to some of your other comments, that your life isn’t
necessarily over yet and that things could improve. You are no longer young, but not quite ancient either, not to take away your feeling, but thought to point it out. I can relate to it however, as I feel my possibilities to be much more limited now.
Phil
Gee. I’m sad that you are suffering so much, post-retreat Otto. I’m glad you made it to the retreat. You are brave.
thanks gretchen. in retrospect, probably should have come to group.
Looking at young people dance the wahtusi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcQQi9vbZZE . slight tears, as i know this is almost over.
>
> had a bit of a rough group today, sunday.
> first big event for me was building up to a point where I felt I needed to talk about feeling very hurt by someone last year, but once I spoke a lot of rage came out..
> nothing really got resolved in any direct way between the person and me, but still on hindsight I did feel it was a relief to get all that bottled up anger out of my system, and some vital details were mentioned from both parts which felt essential in the dispute, so for me it was some kind of a katharsis anyway
>
> also allowing myself to get so angry, and to be focused on the same moment and knowing what to say was kind of liberating, although it did make me feel vulnerable afterwards so I did have to check with a few people as to know they were still ok with me. that helped.
>
> then the second thing is I started feeling really tense with wanting to speak, but waiting and waiting, and so at some point, I did speak, knowing I was kind of interrupting someone but to my own perception not on a very crucial moment.
> of course I was called upon it, but still it felt better to have allowed myself to speak, and to take the consequences,instead of waiting and waiting trying to be the good girl/patient, and to then get scolded for wanting to speak when group was about to end.
>
> it is a bit like taking care of myself and looking for the acceptable balance, as who else will take care of me if I don’t.
> I still need to work on finding an acceptable way to do so, but sometimes there is no perfect way, specially when only being in town briefly.
>
> missed you in group Otto, but I really understand you had other things to deal with.
> M
> what also struck me is how in the discussion itself there was no way, no room in my emotion to accept from the person I had the ‘fight’ with, that I was still trying to get something, while when the person who sat next to me said basically the same, but in a friendly and gentle way, I had no problem whatsoever hearing and accepting it.
> sometimes the underlying feeling is more important than the words, also the mere facts about a dispute are important, but expressing the underlying emotion seems most crucial to allow things to fall into place..
> am still processing, there seems to be an automatic fear for being disapproved of and punished emotionally, as a kid expressing anger was immediately ‘rewarded’ with blame and guilt, how could I be so unloving and ungrateful, big disapproval and ‘hurt feelings’ from mommy coming my way…
>
> well, today I was not a good girl I guess, Barry told me last year to stop being the good girl, ha!!
> still it remains painful to be seen at least by one person, and possibly by more, as a ‘taker’ while I work so hard on trying not to be.
>
> for myself I feel the criticism might have a slight part of truth to it, specially more so in the past, but not at all to the degree of deserving whatever hurt it did feel, but the bottom line is that is not really what matters, different people different feelings at play, we all can only deal with our parts at a certain point, and express what we need to express I guess.
>
> it does feel bad though not to come to a mutual resolution and understanding and acceptance, but maybe that illustrates there was no solid base for friendship to start with.
> will have to let it sink in…
> M @
Margaret,
I think it’s good that this all came out in group, so that it was addressed this way before you left instead of having it bottled up.
Phil
argument about whether i did or did not respond to flirting. i did and she went back to vacuuming. f this shit. more need of comfort than anything else. dead me. help clean out dying fridge. whoopee. could be sexy in a movie, if i wasnt fucking dead already.
I took the overnight flight from LA Friday night and since then have been very lethargic.
So much so that I took a pill so I could drink some coffee for energy; otherwise the caffeine gives
me acid re-flux. That way I could at least do a few things. I can’t be sitting around like this too much. The more I do it the worse it gets. It’s jet lag but it’s also a down feeling that I often have.
Getting back to the gym will be a good antidote but work is not at all a stimulating environment, so that adds to the problem.
Phil
I feel sad that you feel so low , Phil. I enjoyed your presence at the retreat.
ok better now
> Phil,
> you are right.
> in fact, immediately after my first long outburst, the first thing I said was it was probably a very good thing I got all of that stuff out of my system, I was surprised by the force behind it, the amount of anger I had never really suspected to harbor.
> It can’t be healthy to carry stuff like that inside and pushed away so deeply only the tip of the iceberg occasionally shows..
> wonder what kind of dreams will come up after this..
> M
> yes Jack, I agree, your description was very touching.
> M
Margaret: Thanks.
Jack
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/shirtless-justin-trudeau-accidentally-photo-000341497.html
To our American and British friends. This is a picture of the leader of our country (with the surf board). How are you guys doin??? 🙂 🙂
Hi Barry,
It was great seeing you at the retreat. I just finished my first day back at work, not a wonderful feeling, but it went OK. Nice to be back with my wife but otherwise I miss everyone and all the support which was available last week. I am still feeling the effects.
How are you doing. Lucky you got such a cool leader!
Phil
Hey Barry…cool pic! ….feeling great thanks…great catchup with you and Leslie and retreat peeps😄 and really good overall retreat experience….one unfinished thing, tho’ – I still don’t know who my secret pal was…
> hey Barry,
> what about the Belgian friends, smile7?
> M
Phil,
I hope you can get through that feeling, I hear you regarding missing the support and contact from last week: I felt sad today that I had traveled so far yesterday and left the retreat and everyone behind me.
First day back at work for me after the retreat yesterday too. I traveled back on Sunday leaving LA at 6AM. Felt fine all day despite sleeping little on Saturday night. I feel much closer to my feelings in general in the wake of the retreat. I woke this morning feeling afraid but not anxious which is unusual for me: I could just feel afraid. Also, I am struggling minimally right now: hopefully that will last for a while at least! We’ll see!
I always find with each retreat I gain some ground: I eventually go back closer to my pre-retreat state, but some net gains remain permanently.
Donal
> Donal,
> it is nice to read what you wrote.
> I also feel every retreat keeps making us more real, bit by bit.
> it was good to still be here today, I could get a reality check with some friends about group yesterday, asking them for their perception about my outburst of anger, fearing to hear what I always got in my childhood, ridicule and contempt, and while listening to their replies I could really feel how a weight got lifted from my shoulders.
> no contempt, no ridicule, no rejection, but a feeling they clearly had about me expressing what I felt very clearly and directly.
> that ‘debriefing’ felt so very useful.
> i could stop the little relentless questining inner voice, which made me insecure, doubting anything I could come up with, making me turn around in circles of self doubt.
> really so glad I took the risk of just asking for their opinion, without ‘steering’, just a wide open question, which made me feel pretty vulnerable when I asked it.
> was so glad I took that risk..
> M
Donal,
Nice to see you here. It sounds like you made good progress at the retreat.
Me too. I feel more opened up and that will help for future sessions. I have plenty of stuff to talk about.
I will have to toughen up again as I get back to the routine of working
Phil
> today the house where our mom lived for 55 years, and where we grew up, is being emptied…
> we found some charity organisation willing to do so, as they could use a lot of stuff also to ship out to some poor countries where it would stil be more useful than in wealthy Belgium.
> still there must have been a lot of items they could also sell there, not antique but good brocante, all those little things our mom gathered during her life..
>
> luckily she seems to be forgetting about her former house, and as I hear from other family members she is doing well.
> next week me and my halfsister will go with her and some other residents of the nursing home as voluntary assistants to a bus trip to a nearby big park, with a big rosegarden and a guide, and then for a drink there.
> my sister will accompany a lady in a wheelchair and I will walk with my mom, a perfect solution for my mom’s first group outing with the nursing home.
> the nice thing is we go to a spot I already suggested to my brother as somewhere nice we could visit eventually with her, and now it will be her first group trip, with us as company.
> hope it will be a nice day, weather and atmosphere, it might be the first time too I will see her after my return, not sure about that yet.
> M
Clearing my parents’ house after my mom died was something me and my sisters put off for a very long time. And then, when we finally got around to it, each and every item in it raised the dilemma of whether to keep it, give it, or throw it away. And then there was the newly acquired – or should I say first acquired – licence to open drawers never before opened by us, to poke into their private belongings, to read their letters. It’s a very peculiar feeling.
I’m not sure if it’s the same when your mom is still alive, probably not, but still – emptying one’s childhood home is very emotional, even if those emotions are somehow blocked.
There’s a wonderful little book about that by the Belgian writer Lydia Flem, called Comment j’ai vidé la maison de mes parents, in which she vividly describes her own process and accompanying feelings. It’s on Amazon.
The book was translated into English as The Final Reminder: How I Emptied My Parents’ House. It too is on Amazon.
Phil, is there any part of your job that you DO like? Also, which VA’s did you say were close to you?
Otto, that’s a good question. Wel,l it is nice that since I run the whole lab, I make all the decisions on how to do things. Different than most other jobs I’ve had. The schedule flexibility is good too. I can go in at 8:00 AM or as late as 10:00 or 10:30. But all the negatives are overwhelming the positives about the job at this point, in my mind. Yesterday, my first day back, I spent a lot of time studying with Duolingo on my phone. That could be a good point too I suppose. I can work on other things while at work.
Castle Point in Wappingers Falls is a very nearby VA hospital. There is another one not too far in Montrose. They are part of the VA Hudson Valley Healthcare System.
One of our nurses left for a job there a few years ago and does very well.
Phil
WordPress ate my post. Crap. Not sure why I even want to say any of this. Feelings approached at retreat.1. Impending murder of me in a pigeon coop, and probably actual murder by uncle al outside pigeon coop as I yelled NO NO NO. 2. Next to last day, Gretchen group, realization as baby that my brain was needing to hear speech, for someone to say, “can you say WALL, my little Otto” but there was nobody who wanted to explain all the stuff laying before my baby eyes. (1 and 2, good reasons for me not being much of a talker). 3. Yelled GIVE ME SOMETHING, ANYTYHING to my grandmother big group day 1. 4. Cried 2 hours listening to music in my bunk about the loss of my near-perfect life ages 5 thru 9 in Hollywood, which my grandmother ripped away from me, while SM and CP chatted in the background. I even started to sing and dance in my bunk. All this unbelievable for someone who has sat mostly in stone silence at every previous retreat. Well maybe not totally true. Always help from Barry and Gretchen, great. Strong desire to get out of there, out of this world. Xenophobia of Santa Barbara. No desire at all to be around people. Still. Back to work, to a crazy fucking job that keeps me sane somehow. Back to L.A. with all the same big problems. Good buddying. Whatever, the end is still near, and no fix in sight. Possibly some relief but still feel doom today at work. No desire to feel anything more just yet. phdKid is now in Chicago first day of job, and seemed uneasy. I feel bad for him and hope he will be ok. Other son with 2 babies, i cant do a damn thing for him. lovin’ it…not.
> Daniel,
> thanks for the book title, I will ask my audio library if they have it or if they can have it read in.
> our mom still being alive does not make it easier, also as we do not mention it with her at this point, as she seems not to think about her house and stuff anymore.
> it was a big issue for her at first, which we could adress by telling her we would keep certain furniture apart for her, and take pictures of the rest so she could decide about it, and we postponed taking her back there as that might have raised a huge painful struggle and reopened the hurt of why she could not be there or return anymore.
> at this point she seems not even to remember exactly where she lived, and does not bring it up.
> some unfeeling visitor she knows once brought it all up and inquired about if she did not remember this and that, and told us she did not, I will send him an e–mail now he should not adress that subject when he visits her preferably not to upset her.
> with her memory loss she lives in the present,and she seems to be getting more content with the idea and feeling of living where she lives now and being well taken care of.
> still, you are right, I am not there, still in LA, but it feels bad even to not keep for example a certain big stone with holes in it, naturally formed, she broght home and she put feathers and long stems of dry grass in the holes.
> she was gathering al kinds of stuff she liked like that, so the house is full of them, or was full of them…
> a consolation is we do not throw it away but give it to people who will try to put as much of it as possible to use.
> it is a nice idea some of it might end up in South America, Columbia, where I think the charity thought of shipping it to help the poor.
> we first did actually plan to keep some of the furniture and guard it for her until she has a larger room, which should happen next year, but as time went by and she forgot it seemed less necessary to do so.
> I might still have done it, but my brother seemed to want to give it all away at some point, so I did not feel like struggling too much about it. there would always be the possibility getting some of the old furniture back would stir up her memory and pain about the move again..
> also my brother carries the heaviest load of having to deal with all the practical things, so I did not want to make it harder still for him and kind of let him take the lead.
> we did listen to each other, and he would have kept it if I had insisted, but it did not seem that crucial to do so.
> and now it is too late anyway…
> M
Margaret,
I think it was good that you expressed your anger in group on Sunday and I am glad you took the risk to speak. I always feel that engaging people in group that you need to resolve issues with is so productive. That is when group it at its best when we are engaging each other. Sometimes when there is no interaction it feels like a series of private sessions that are taking place on one room!
Also, the “debriefing” you got from friends: sounds like that is really helping you to get perspective. Seems like you were feeling some important stuff at the retreat also based on what I hear you say in group. I am glad you are getting places.
Donal
Hey Donal. Nice to see you on the blog.
I fly back home on Wednesday and anticipate post retreat blahs.
Larry,
Have a nice trip; it was great seeing you at the retreat.
It’s too bad we are so far apart.
Phil
> thanks Donal, those are kind words of yours.
> just returned ‘home’ from a session, could catch a ride with a friend up there and took a taxi back.
> got confused while trying to find the entry of the house, but luckily the taxi driver saw it and cared enough to get out of his taxi and come give me a hand to find the richt house entry..
> scary and nice at the same time.
> thursday coming the same kind of adventure is coming up, ride with someone to a session, taxi back..
> might just give the driver a good tip and ask him to take me right up to the entry, cause same time of day and then the sunlight turns out to stand at the worst angle to blind me completely..
> argh, have to live with it and make the best of it..
> next week will be back home with my cats, can’t wait to see them again and cuddle them until they get fed up with it, haha..
> and remove all the cat hair from the bed and chairs..
> my darling cats..
> beautiful and fascinating and so soft, and so able to enjoy caresses and playing, and sleeping..
> M
A little tear-maker. riding in cars with boys. i never watched it before. ahhh. watched a little bit. confirms my conspiracy theory, that life wants to beat the shit out of you and make you cry. maybe i am missing the point. gotta walk the dogs and feed the wife and pet the cat.
> yes Larry,
> have a safe flight home!
> and thanks for the good company and the rides.
> M
To all: Good to hear about the retreat from y’all. I just feel in my bones that it was good for you all, if not also painful. Then that’s the whole point of retreats … yeah!!
Me: I am with my Nephew, Mark, in The Netherlands looking at a property that my Jimbo would like to buy and move into. Saw the house which looks lovely, but for me the flat-ness of this area (Groningem) and the weather is not my first choice … but Jimbo wanted Sweden and that was a ” no no” for me. Been there and felt the people were too formal and rigid. My first choice was Spain (Almeria) So we compromised on The Netherlands. Dunno when we’ll leave the US, but I’ll certainly keep in touch via the blog. 😦 😦 .
My feeling, reading stuff on the internet, is that all the police killings and abuse (unless all that is a hoax also) is maneuvering the whole US into a ‘police state’. then the Trump thing isn’t a good sign either. Just my personal feeling. Maybe getting too old.
I’ve had a couple of feeling of my own being here, abroad … sort of a little dis-orienting for me. Another country, another weather (rain, wind and cold) and another language … and I have enough trouble with English. The effects of doing my little brother’s ashes is also giving me more depth into childhood.
Jack
Jack,
That must be exciting to consider picking up and moving somewhere new. Coming after the emotional experience of that family gathering and scattering of your brother’s ashes, it sounds like a very significant trip you are having.
Phil
Phil: Significant yes, definitive … not so sure. The best part is that it is putting me into feelings and thus hopefully getting more and more insights. Yes, I am beginning to accept that getting old is where I am at. Not the greatest feeling, but I feel I can cope … and have support from Mark my nephew.
Thanks Phil. Jack
> hey Jack,
> that is interesting news!
> make sure you control whether the property is not in one of those areas that start having ‘sinking’ problems because too much gas was pumped from below the surface there.
> and you chose the part most up North from the Netherlands, if you’d go to the south part it would be a few degrees warmer and you would be very close to Antwerp smiley..
> but Groningen is a reasonably unspoilt area I guess, and not that expensive for real estate as some other parts.
> be careful as well about the consequences of the Brexit, and find out if it affects your situation, for no longer being part of the European community etc.
> hope you find a nice new nest to setle in.
> up there they also have a separate language, Fries, apart from the main Dutch, but most people know English, certainly the younger ones.
> good luck, M
Margaret: Actually I did hear from an old friend of mine who lives in Amsterdam, about this earthquake thing or land sinking due to the gas extraction, here in this area. She too warned about buying, as the value could mean the house would eventually be worthless. Meantime, I have just talked to a ‘damage expert’ and he gave a lot more information, since he has access to the data base on the matter. So far there is little actual damage in the area and where the house is situated is IN that area. The biggest quake made 1 on the Richter scale, but it has freaked out lot of local residents, and there are quite few houses in the area for sale.
I’ve emailed my Jimbo and he’s now also in the know about it all. My immediate feeling is we are running away from one earthquake prone area into another. BUT we are no longer playing blind. Meantime Margaret thanks for informing me. Why Jimbo chose this area was because of the land surrounding the house, he loves gardening: it’s quaint and cute looks, but there are other house in the area that are quite modern. The area has nothing to compare with Cornwall where I will be returning this weekend to my Niece’s, before the final trip back to “The Angels of Saint Mary”. LA for short. 🙂 .
The price did come down and it’s now a great price,BUT ………….? I suppose, to take Vivian’s mantra “Take a risk”. Still there’s two of us in on the deal. Meantime, I also feel that living out of a suitcase, is not what I need do much of, from here on in.
Jack
> Jack,
> I am asking myself if you would not want to live closer to your family?
> is that an option?
> M
Margaret: My trip up to the north with family and to see my two sister; I knew that I didn’t want to be nearer to them, OR England. Apart from Mark my Nephew that’s about as much as I need. The family I left at age 21 and have had no regrets, but I do phone my siblings on their birthdays and Christmas. That’s as much connection as I need. My real connection is with Jimbo. I feel that’s all I need in terms of intimacy. Friends yes, and I have a few (not many). The remaining question is where I want to live for the rest of the time I have left. The US … been there done that, England or the Uk … did that also. Somewhere fresh … yeah!!!! providing I can maintain my pension and live relatively comfortably: age gracefully, if that’s possible, and die in relative peace … but then isn’t that everyone’s wish?????
Jack
> Jack,
> ok, just hope you are well insured for if you get ill etc., the Netherlands have diminished a lot of their healthcare lately, turning more and more to expensive private insurances.
> but I guess you and Jim think about all those things and take care of them, so good luck, big new adventure, M
Margaret: Thanks also for that but,. Jimbo has been researching all that also; somewhat complex, but I have had an email since I last posted on the blog, and because of the area being earth quake prone he’s having second thoughts. I will mention to him your idea to go to the south of The Netherlands; but should I get my druthers, I would like to go even further south. We’ll see. Nothing set in stone as of yet.
Yeah!! just about making it, adventure wise … thanks to Mark.
Jack
I have to write this, not because i feel the need to shame my wife, but just because it is incredulous. 40 years of this. “do you have 20 dollars i can give to my massage therapist, it’s her birthday”. At least i did not yell at her, i just vociferously pointed out that i still could not afford a pair of shoes. I did not remind here that we had gotten 2 months behind on payments of the ridiculously-expensive hybrid car that she just had to have, and will most likely lose the car once my overtime ends. I mean my god, the massage girl is making a living from our health insurance by massagjing my wife. ahhhh. otherwise doing fine, except for the impending doom thing that depresses me out of my gourd, and the cat seems to be getting worse, and i worry about the kid being alone in Champaign Illinois. the only bright spot is a mexican cutie on the taco truck and her mother’s wonderful steak burritos. what a find. i can now type meaningless data into a computer at 5am, knowing that this will be my reward later in the day. HAAAAA! no time for tears, or energy for them. maybe saturday.
It’s an interesting and to me, surprising turn you are taking in your life, Jack.
It was nice eating dinner with you at Steve’s, Margaret.
Phil, in my retirement I’ll have to pay you a visit.
The retreat effect certainly does not end when the retreat does. This afternoon I landed back at home, and instantly am faced with and unhappy with the void in my life, especially with the dirth of people to connect to here in my life compared to the so human experience of the retreat and the primal community in LA. After meaningful and fun connections with people at the retreat and in LA (even though those connections eventually made me hurt and cry and want to withdraw and nurse my wound), my aloneness here is too stark and I don’t want it. Since landing I feel so down and listless, so alone, and what’s worse is I feel I’m not able to change my situation. I hope sleep and rest tonight will have me feeling better tomorrow, but right now I’m wondering what am I doing plopped down here in this far north central plain far from anyone close to me. An old feeling too in there somewhere no doubt.
On my last day in LA, while watching the movie Indignation, long inactive neuron networks fired along dusty blind alleys in my brain calling to my attention that life can be precarious, I’m grown up now, there is no one to protect me and it’s ultimately up to me only to make my way. The responsibility feels like too heavy a load, the way too lost. More old feeling in there I’m sure.
I hope going to work tomorrow helps me feel better.
Larry: Yep! life seems to maneuver itself where it need to go for me at this age. 83 and still counting.
You had such a nasty and bad start in life Larry, so it’s little wonder that healing is so, so painful and causing you such anxiety. I hope for you that some breakthrough will happen especially as you approach retirement.
Who knows it might turn out better that you think …. one never can predict the future.
I wish you all the very best Larry
Jack.
Larry,
I hope that returning to work will help. A visit from you here would be great. There’s
a lot of things to see and do in the area if you’ve never been here before.
I’m glad to see that people are joining my Spanish/English Meetup group, however none of them so far seem to be the Hispanics I am hoping for. I’ve scheduled our first meeting for next week. My wife is very skeptical about this, as she notices over many years I never have improved my Spanish much by practicing with her. I mentioned that as a reason for trying something different. This project is holding my interest right now as something to work toward.
Phil
Say, how fah south you fixin’ to move, boy? i say, too fah south an’ ya see them pesky chicken hawks, boy. “That’s a joke, ah say, that’s a joke, son.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LCsiWL6gn0
sorry, forgot those cartoons were so violent. pretty much raised by them, at some point.
> Phil,
> it seems a great initiative, and I am glad you do get responses.
> maybe at the start it will be easier if everyone is still kind of a medium beginner, less fear to fail, and everyone will learn from everyone.
> hope you can enjoy it and learn at the same time.
> how do you put out the news if you want to start something?
> maybe I could find something myself smiley, to meet some kin souls, have to give it some thought!
> M
Margaret,
I am impressed with the Meetup website.
Thanks to David for the suggestion. There was no such group already in my area like the one I created, but there were people on the website who had expressed an interest in Spanish language and culture etc. These people apparently were notified as soon as I created the new group.
I also joined some hiking groups and have received a lot of messages about scheduled events.
Phil
> phil,
> I must have missed David’s suggestion about the meetup site.
> is that the name of the site and is it local or international, I mean does it go by countries?regions?
> guess I should find a better connection than to search for other catloving blind psychology students, mmm
>
> M
Margaret,
I see there is Meetup for Belgium: http://www.meetup.com/cities/be/antwerpen/
Phil
> wow thanks Phil, that is certainly interesting!!
> M
> I feel so tense/anxious/unhappy these days, no clear reason, disability part of it of course, but there must be more to it as it is worse than other years, seems to be increasing since the last time.
> I think it is a very early feeling on the rise, wish it would break through in its entireness, as the worst stage is this continuous prefeeling stage of suffering.
> but the hard thing is for me these kind of feelings often need a strong and unexpected trigger, hard to get into otherwise.
> have a session coming up, and then one more group on satuday, might trying not to talk too much in my session this time, just lay down and focus on how it feels maybe..
> sigh..
> first cake and coffee with M, local girlfriend, ha, might take me out of the doom and gloom of course.
> have not brought me any book to listen to, so when bored am forced to study on my laptop, not very entertaining, right now into the scholastic philosophy and schooling at the end of the late Middle Ages and the start of the Renaissance..
> before that read an interesting part about the shifts and changes in the Middle Ages, mostly in Italy, with all those little wars, mercenary armies who could turn against their hosts, and then the Black Plague wiping out a third of the European population but afterwards enabling the remainders a chance for more prosperity as wages went up for lack of laborers.
> interesting, never was into history but such an overview did kind of catch my attention though.
> M
Larry,
Sounds like a stark experience landing home. I found it a shock removing myself from cA a couple of days after the retreat. I have had a few days to settle in and have been able to feel some hopelessness and fear more than usual. I can sink into the feelings more than before the retreat. At this stage, if I can stick with feeling bad and let the feeling do its thing that is progress. I can get through the feeling without trying to fight it too much, which just per5petuates it anyway, We all know that drill 🙂
You said rest, etc may change your state…I hope you can get somewhere with how you feel and. find some people to connect with where you live
Donal.
Donal, the day I landed back at home I was pretty tired and had a good sleep that night. The next day at work was pretty good. Today is not so good because I’m not at work and alone a lot more. Aloneness wears me down and tires me out and makes me feel not so good about myself.
After the retreat, and even before I left LA, in my mind’s eye I saw the reality of my aloneness. Gretchen and Barry and friends can try to help me as best they know how, but they can only do so much and then what becomes of me is up to me. I am alone with the responsibility for me. Anything can happen to me (to any of us). In my mind’s eye I see myself ended up in this region of the planet, alone, very far away from everyone (childhood feelings in there perhaps?). The changes I need to make in my life I alone make. An ever present feeling ingrained for most of my life was that the child in me could not do it alone and had to find someone to take care of me. Now I feel like I’m crossing over to a new paradigm where I’m ceasing to look for someone to take care of me and am trying to figure out how to take care of myself and in doing so I realize and feel my aloneness and probably the void that was my childhood.
My bike was stolen a month ago. Today I bought myself a much better one. I’ll be much more careful about how I store it. I’m really excited to ride it tomorrow, and to ride it to work next week. It’s such a pleasure to ride, it makes me feel younger.
Tomorrow I’ll go to a movie with a friend, and probably a meal after. On Sunday I’ll be going with some ladies to an evening outdoor on the river bank Shakespeare in the tent live theatre presentation of a female futuristic version of J. Caesar. Should be good. Next weekend I go to a wedding of a retired friend I used to work with. He’s in his early 70’s and getting married for the first time. We’re all nearing the same end. It’s what we do on the way that matters. Right Jack?
PS. Where I wrote that my bike was stolen, I meant my bicycle.
Larry: since you ask me …that’s definitely the way I see it. Therapy takes us closer and closer to the edge .. but jumping over the edge is up to us as individuals. Easier for some than other depending on the amount of damage in childhood and gestation.
Jack
Sounds a bit like an Olympics event…………the high jump maybe or the diving competition…………with Jack as the Gold Medal Winner lol! for several years in a row lost track of how many but it’s a lot of them.
Patrick: That sounds more like someone else’s perception of me, not necessarily mine.
As for the Olympics I can’t even bring myself to watch any of it. Why are we competing … instead of co-operating?????????????
Jack
Yeah I know what you mean the Olympics have not grabbed me at least not yet. The thing that stands out the most is the US swimmer Michael Phelps who won the same event for the 4th time (4 Olympics) That does seem pretty amazing because it’s not as if he does not have a lot of ‘youngsters’ after him
> Barry said something in my session today that really helped me to get some clarity and trust my own feelings.
> he said ‘true giving is giving because the person needs, not because you want to give’.
> I agree so much, isn’t that what generosity is about?
> M
I really like that!
> I have no access here to the latest news.
> does somebody know if there will still be delays by sunday for flights from Delta Airlines?
> mine is operated by KLM, the Royal Dutch Airlines, but it is actually done so for Delta, the flight number is a DL number….
> I hope things will be normal by then, would hate to be stuck, ha, that is a recurrent theme for me lately, seemingly, partly some old feeling on the rise, stuck and the fear of not making it, of not being able to cope…
> M
Margaret,
I think the bad news for Delta seems to be over for the moment, as far as I can see.
Phil
> ha, thanks Phil!!
> M
> yesterday in my session I was trying to put the right words to how I often feel at waking up in the morning.
> anxious, unhappy, it did come close but nothing seemed to really fit.
> at some point Barry used the words very alone, no one to take care of you, and suddenly that felt like ‘yes’..
> isn’t it striking that that didn’t even occur to me, words like ’empty’ did, but at that point ‘alone’ as the simplest of truths might have been too painful to admit to my own consciousness..
> it goes deep, there is still a fundamental layer slowly and painfully rising to the surface..
> all those baby wails and feelings might some day lead me towards it, but possibly a strong trigger might be the only way in, if ever..
> I will be glad to be back home and more in control of my life, in my familiar surroundings, not so dependent of people, more choice of things to do, cats, household, studying, reading, family, friends, dancing,and blogging, and anything else I can come up with..
> might try a dating site, nothing to lose, need some adventure and movement to keep going..
> sigh, right now ready to go to a free podium music bar, but still waiting for my companion to show up.
> hungry too, and running out of food here, must do something about that when the occasion rises.
> one apple left, one avocado and seven slices of bread..
> M
Long walks on the beach and this song comes into my head ‘both sides now’ I’ve looked at life from both sides now and it’s life’s illusions I recall I really don’t know life at all…………..also she talks about clouds ‘so much I might have done but clouds got in the way’ ……….well there are more than ever of them here, clouds, clouds and clouds and if you woke in the middle of the night it’s clouds you’d see to change an old Gaelic saying (substitute potatoes for clouds) finally yesterday I saw 1/2 a sunset a sunset squeezed in between clouds not really a “sunset” as I used to think of it……….anyway no way can I not believe the weather is being messed with deliberatly and really if in any doubt all I have to do is look up and if by some chance clouds do not cover from horizon to horizon I can usually see a ‘chemtrail’ or the remains of one. Also the higher up ‘white’ clouds mostly do not look ‘natural’ but a lot of straight lines like electro magnetic frequency modified clouds………..a very bad situation for Ireland their summers are gone and they can only look forward now to a long long Winter. Scandalous situation……….
Larry,
I was picturing you driving a hog for a few minutes until I saw your clarification 🙂
Glad to hear you have social things planned over the next couple of weeks,rut
I have been defending a bit over the last couple of days. A little disappointing, but I do not want to get stuck in the rut of self criticism (like “oh no, I am ruining the effect of the retreat” OR “I am regressing”…..those types of thoughts, which are simplistic, erroneous and of no real value to me anyway) I will be buddying today and have a session Monday. Will try not to defend too much in the meantime and enjoy the weekend as best I can,
Barry has pointed out to me that in therapy we are training ourselves to stay with feeling bad and not defending (as best as we can). Most people don;t do that of course. Also, most do not realize that it is the defending that hurts….once you get through to some feeling it is, ironically, less difficult.
Donal.
Donal, when I retire I think I might get a purple hog. 🙂
Today I’ve done some crying and thought I would try to describe what it was about here.
Nothing specific happened, it’s just a kind of backlog that builds up within me of sad feelings.
It always feels like it has to do with a lack of connection with people that happened
in the past, my childhood.
A scene came to mind. I went to a friends birthday party at age 4 or 5 by walking through some
backyards from my house. When the party was over there were no more kids or playing going on. I found myself alone and afraid to walk back home because there were older kids playing along the way I needed to go. I had a lot of anxiety is what I remember and needed my mother, but she wouldn’t be coming and was never there for me. My friend’s older sister noticed me crying in their front yard, and helped by walking me back to my house.
This scene sums up a lot for me. I have to walk around and function with a lot of anxiety, less because of the therapy, but I’m still working on it. So much of the time there was no one there for me, I was on my own. I learned how to function by tolerating and pushing down or ignoring the anxiety, but it’s terrible to walk around with it. it has always limited me as to what I could do in my life. I have had to avoid a lot of things.
An event like the retreat isn’t that easy for me. I’m more relaxed and comfortable around some people, less so around other people who I haven’t connected with. But that is the kind of thing I need to do to face that anxiety and to feel the underlying pain.
Phil
Geez, I get what you are talking about Phil.
> Phil, that is such a sad story.
> i hate to imagine the kind of anxity it could cause..
>
> retreeats or simply coming here seem to open up the gates some more, i too feel so much more aware, mostly all the time, of how alone, and sad/unhappy and frightened I feel.
> there seems to be a big very early feeling lurking there, but at this stage all i can do is bear the continuous anxiety and try to function, feeling very alone all the time, even with people, and hope sooner or later I get to some resolution.
> dreamed I was hit in the face, and that people were ssecretly ganging up against me, not all, but several..
> something else happened, I only remember it was kind of dreadful, ha, other dreams might tell me more..
> group coming up in a few hours, and then flying home tomorrow, grr, am in a continuous state of feeling I might not be able to cope, exhausting feeling..
> M
With all that fear and uncertainty, it’s amazing you even came to the retreat, Margaret.
Phil, i will gladly read your stuff later. I just got home from 7th day of work, i want to sleep. to get to my house, I had to twist and turn and wait through long lines of cars because someone had run into a light pole near my house, and probably killed themselces doing it. my poor wife has usually gone out to lunch with the kid who is now in chicago adjusting to working in the private sector. She wantecd to know if i wanted to get some lunch. she thouight that ui would at least drive her through the twisting throngs of traffic to bring some lunch home. nope. too tired or feelingless to go cry at the PI. shoved any feelings down that came up at the retreat, but i dont feel bad. juist the sense of doom that constantly pokes through to my concisousness. cat with fungus appears to be getting sicker, maybe that is part of the doom feeling. what else to do. maybe have more sessions if i ever get caught up with bills. HA, FAT CHANCE!. By the time Z gets through doing her long-distance BA and feels like she can get a job, I will be long gone. She will burn through the life insurance money in a week because she will feel bad that i am gone. whoopee, we all gonna do something, per Country Joe…
I’m impressed how you soldier on Otto when you life feels so difficult.
Otto,
That sense of doom you mention sounds like a terrible feeling.
We have a sick pet also. Our 6 year old goldfish seems to have ich,
a parasitic disease which fish get. I have applied treatments many
times but the fish continues to get white bumps erupting from his
skin (or scales) and doesn’t recover.
You’re right, we will all go sooner or later, hopefully quite a bit later.
We have been having many very hot humid days here. Luckily I work
in an air conditioned office and can stay cool at home as well, which is
what I’m mostly doing this weekend.
Phil
2012 the movie. the car and airplane scenes…a little adrenaline. i am reminded how some of us just really have a strong will to survive against horrible odds….
Otto,
I have been reading your entries since the retreat. I do not know how you keep going with such a punishing work schedule.. But I guess you do what you need to keep the show on the road as it were.
Reading your retreat entries was interesting as I was comparing to what I heard you say in group and around here and there, I even had a cameo appearance.in one of your posts 🙂 I liked sharing the group room with you and the two others…..just enough people to make me feel safe but not too many like the dorm.
Donal
and some times, it’s all about luck and what day it is….and where you are on that day…
A wonderful article today in The Guardian: “Depression, violence, anxiety: the problem with the phrase ‘be a man’ ” by Eva Wiseman.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2016/aug/14/why-be-a-man-is-a-dangerous-phrase?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook
David: what an incredible article you posted here. I read it all and was inspired my most of it. One inspiration I got out of it was perhaps, Arthur Janov or maybe even Barry B could find a film maker and sort of repeat it from a Primal stand point.
Jack
Jack,
It is incredible isn’t it! Moving and inspiring. Will be definitely checking out the film mentioned on Netflix, The Mask You Live In. I guess the problem with a primal therapy documentary, with really capturing the process, is how many patients would feel comfortable being filmed having feelings and for that to be then shown to a general audience? There’s an issue of safety and confidentiality. But you make an important point about raising public awareness of PT (if I’m getting you right), which addresses so many of the issues mentioned in the article. I’ve seen you get called a “PR man” on the blog, but I think PT is in need of some PR. The only time I see it get any attention in the media is if a journalist wants to talk to Arthur Janov about John Lennon. I remember when I bought my copy of “The Primal Scream” it had a high profile in book stores. Not any more! These days if you say “Primal Scream” to any one, they think you’re talking about the rock band, if they think of anything at all.
David: I have thought long and hard about this very question. Yes there are issues of privacy, but I personally would not hestite to be filmed having a feeling. I would also be very eager to put my oar in about what this therapy is all about as I see it. It would be interesting if others on the blog would say how they feel on the matter.
I do feel it is time for this subject to be brought into the communal dialog not just the Primal community, but for the world at large. I know there are those who stongly disagree. However, disagreement should acually show that this process is meant to be for each of us to express our feeling on all matters. Not for agreement.
I equally feel that there might be others outside the Primal community who would be willing to state their opinons on these matters also. For me the real danger is:- it is not considered cosher to talk about child rearing UNLESS one has reared their own child/children. BUT, my take on that is I do not speak as a parent, BUT as a child, that went through it all, and now know what being a child under a father who was so insistent on dicipline and believing that rearing children was to “break their spirit”; and that punshment resolved all those problems. No it did not … IMO
Jack
In theory all of this sounds ok but in reality at least the way I mostly see it (and have expierienced it ) any ‘differences’ or questions are quickly seen as puncturing an almost religous belief system. And provokes the kind of defensive reaction which is typical when a ‘religous’ belief is questioned. I guess I am mostly though thinking of Jack in this regard it’s probably not correct to say that about most of the others here.
I was walking and talking with an old friend here today and it struck me I could and did openly voice what I feel are some real problems with primal as an approach and could and did get a respectful and interesting listen and responce…………..and I wondered why I could not do that here. And well it comes down to religous beliefs are not to be and cannot be questioned which seemed a real pity.
David: what an incredible article you posted here. I read it all and was inspired my most of it. One inspiration I got out of it was perhaps, Arthur Janov or maybe even Barry B could find a film maker and sort of repeat it from a Primal stand point.
Jack
David – while I find that article interesting and for sure has a point………….I don’t think the point is as all encompassing or as convincing as maybe it’s ‘pretentions’ are I sort of agree with someone in the story who said it sounds/feels like a kind or warmed over ‘gender studies’ stucky and may mostly be confusing cause with effect.
Like this thing about how boys now suffer more than girls that seems to be true but is it really as simple as encouraging boys to ‘express their feelings’. If that was so available to them and had such almost magical therapeutic value presumably they would already be doing that. Another take is very possible on a lot of this, there is quite a bit of evidence that boys suffer more than girls from for example the effect of vaccines (I know of 2 families where that seems to be the case). As the tsunami of vaccines continue and increase well you are going to have a lot more of this. You will and are having autism, Asbergers, epilepsy, sudden death syndrome, shaken baby syndrome, sudden cot death syndrome blah blah blah Girls are not immune of course but for some reason they are ‘stronger’. Or take a child who had hundreds of epileptic type fits a day does it really help such a child to be encourages to ‘express his feelings’. I don’t think so or at least not so much Better imo to look for the real causes of this kind of stuff and work to stop it. Also supposedly we are all girls in the womb before we become boys the point being to become a boy is more ‘complicated’ requires a lot of hormone cascades etc etc which are highly susceptible to ‘endocrine disruptors’ like your average Monsanto chemical of which there are more and more about
Of maybe to take another tack the story mentions boys being more involved in ‘shootings and murder’………well yes but that seems to be part of a ;’mis-information’ agenda also. I believe quite a few of these ‘mass shootings’ are staged and boys are BLAMED the result being more and more psy-meds are prescribes to kids more ‘monitoring’ etc etc. IF this is being done for an agenda which I believe it is where does that leave one? Well at least it leaves me not buying a lot of this stuff. Also of course because of these ‘mass shootings’ boys will need more ‘therapy’ and more help ‘expressing their feelings’ and co-incidence or not a lot more work for ‘therapists’ and the whole psychiatric psychologic industrial complex to make up a phrase. Of which this article provides ‘propoganda’ for.
A final point the story talks about ‘misogyny’ directed at Hillary Clintons’ campaign if she suffers from ‘misogyny’ I would hate to think what Trump suffers from is there a word for ‘man hate’ if there is I do not know it but it should be as valid as so called ‘misogyny’. As for Trump look at the Hufffington Post EVERY DAY they have up to TEN ‘stories’ showing what an asshole, loser, crazy person he is. So what would you call that since we are in this game of name calling. Come to think of it look at the Guardian also every day and you will set a somewhat milder version of the Huff Po nonsense. I used to like the Guardian but to me now it is little more than a disinformation rag peddling all the usual rubbish globalization, vaccines, global warming theory, one world government, hatred of Islam, bowing and scraping to Judaism. I still read it for headlines but for any real insight not so much. The story you reference in spite of some genuine emotions etc falls pretty much into the “Agenda” It no longer works for me………
Patrick,
“Like this thing about how boys now suffer more than girls that seems to be true but is it really as simple as encouraging boys to ‘express their feelings’.”
It would definitely help IMO. I can say that it’s helped me a great deal.
“If that was so available to them and had such almost magical therapeutic value presumably they would already be doing that.”
You think any of us would be paying large amounts of money for therapy if we could “already be doing that”? The whole point of primal therapy is to get up and running a natural process that should have always been available to us, but which was shut down or compromised due to trauma and bad parenting. As I see it “primal therapy” is a brand name for this natural process of feeling feelings to relieve suffering that should be available to us all, all of the time. It’s just that those of us who practice it are more conscientious of this than perhaps most. What I found moving and inspiring about this article is the stories of people connecting with their own truth, their own inner selves, their own humanity and by extension feeling more of a connection with humanity at large. If you have little experience with connecting with yourself in this way, you may find the article hard to relate to or see eye to eye with….
Your post goes on, perhaps inevitably, into your endless fascination with conspiracy theories. And what’s behind that really? I guess only you can really know what it’s about for you. IMO, it’s most likely about fear. If someone is afraid and not aware of it, there can be a tendency to put that fear onto something “out there” to make it manageable, make it separate and easier to deal with. There is someone or something “out there” that is a danger / making me feel unsafe / telling me lies / out to hurt me. But if I believe in anything, it’s that the answer lies within, and I am slowly but surely becoming more aware of my own fear and what caused it and how that has affected me. But that’s not something I’m going to talk to YOU about… I’ve been seeing an increasing popularity for the word fear to be used as an acronym for False Evidence Appearing Real. While I think that is more about projection than the real feeling of fear, I think it’s helpful here as I see you as someone who is mesmerized by “false evidence”. Maybe a question you should ask yourself is “What am I really afraid of?”
So you won’t let yourself be informed by The Guardian or The Huffington Post. So where do you get your “insights” from? Bloggers or vloggers with the same strange ideas as you? That seems to be the case from what you post here.
David,
I liked that article you posted. It reminds me of the book “Real Boys: Rescuing are Sons from the Myths of Boyhood”. https://www.amazon.com/Real-Boys-Rescuing-Myths-Boyhood-ebook/dp/B003E74BRE#nav-subnav
What is interesting to me is that I’ve always noticed more men doing primal therapy than women. And not just at the P.I. but anywhere where I’ve gone for the therapy. But for therapy in general, more women go, and more women say they are depressed, for example, from what I understand. It’s probably because, in general, men are further from their feelings, for whatever reason, maybe cultural. I think that is what the article might be talking about and also the book I referred to. Maybe it’s also why men commit the vast majority of atrociities, murders, wars, you name it.
Phil
Phil,
Thanks for the recommendation, it looks interesting. It’s been years since I’ve been at the Primal Institute or done any group therapy, but as I remember it, it seemed to be a fairly even split between men and women. Though that could have changed or I could just be remembering it wrong. On this blog there’s more men than women. In general though, and it’s especially and notoriously true in Britain, men and boys need more help expressing their feelings than women as it culturally so less acceptable for them to do. So it’s inspiring to read about those attempting to change the culture. And there are signs it is changing. I’ve been watching the Olympics a lot (as you know..:-) ) and guys have been crying at winning medals as much as the women, and I’ve heard pundits remarking on it. “Great show of emotion there, always good to see that.” And things like that haha. So it’s encouraging.
David,
They do a good job here with making the Olympic coverage dramatic and emotional.
Last night I was watching the story of the young South African 400 meter runner who burst on the international scene recently and his 74 coach, who looks like she could be his grandmother. Then they showed us the 400 meter final and he not only won but beat the long standing world record. His coach was a spectator in the stands. This had me crying. I was very happy to see Bolt win the men’s 100 meter race. It’s wonderful that Jamaica can have such a star athlete. I saw one of the male Brazilian athletes crying deeply for joy at winning a medal in gymnastics, a big upset apparently.
It’s just sports but those people dedicate their lives to it and take it extremely seriously, so I see it as real life drama.
America, was founded on British culture so we have that attitude for men as well. Maybe a lot less so because of all the immigrants, yet it does remain the dominant influence.
Women have an advantage maybe having mothering instincts which you can see already in little girls playing with dolls, and building deeper friendships usually not based on competition. So, maybe it has something to do with biology and culture.
Phil
> Larry,
> hm, yes, I guess you are right. maybe I am not such a complete loser after all..
> today’s group was a nice friendly one.
> Barry adressed me while I was pre-group talking to some people about my mother, and I did talk about the current feeling of impending doom, but it did not lead me into a deeper layer. still it felt good to talk about it.
> has a bit dissipated now luckily, would not be much of a fun feeling to travel..
> tomorrow direction kittycats, hurray!
> M
POSTED FOR MYSELF, DONT READ IF YOU CANT STAND OLD MAN BITCHINESS. SHOULD GO SCREAM IN CAR BUT. work work work work work. guess that says it all. will i be laying in bed paralysed in my old age, wishing i was still able to work? probably. fuck this shit.
> am all packed, ready to fly home in a few hours.
> a bit anxious, and quite sad, and of course feeling alone.
>
> idea of seeing cats again lifts my spirits up a bit..
>
> my brother saved, apart from an old pretty chest, an old wooden coffee grinder for me from our mom’s house.
> one of these square ones with a handle on the top where you put the beans into some copper ricipient, then put the whole thing between your knees and go turning the handle.
> a little drawer allows you to get the coffee..
> as a kid i already liked to do that, loved the sound of the beans being grinded, or do you say ground, although it was a bit of a job to get it all done..
> might start using it again to have freshly homeground coffee, smiley..
> sweet of my brother to do so..
> i love him so much, feel like I could start crying..
> M
Margaret,
Have a good trip! That was nice of your brother to save you that coffee grinder.
Phil
I probably will get into more trouble here but I like this guy and he has loads and loads of stuff on youtube. He goes under the name of 108morris108 (don’t ask me what this means) so you can find all kinds of stuff under that. He is very concerned with Judaism and it’s effect on the modern world and I do find myself agreeing with most of what he says. To me he is the kind of ‘free thinker’ that has vanished from newspapers or magazines but can still be found in some obscure corners of the internet and I wonder even how long that will be allowed to continue
Shut up, self. Z talking to kid in Champayne on the phone in living room. of course she never really says oh i am going to call kid now. then he is anxious because he had a conversation with some fellow employee about where he was staying and the guy said it was expensive, do you have to pay out of pocket, do you want me to show you good apartments to rent, and the kid had to tell him the company was paying for his supposed-short stay, and he was worried about them being jealous of him, and i told him theuy are friendly and helpful in the midwest, and to just self-deprecate so they know he is not full of himself, and kid said that is pretty much what he was doing, and i feel bad, i was trying to be my normal know-it-all self and not just listen to the kid. he want to talk to the boss about when he is going to be transferred to ohio to the battery factory so he can rent a house out there and come back, to l.a. to take his furniture and the monster dog to ohio, but the fellow employee made it sound like the battery factory was nowhere near ready until end of september, which kid thought it was going to be less time. and he wants to go talk to boss about when he would be going so he can arrange all his flight, housing, etc, and i said he should work it into the end of conversation with boss, ask him what plans did the boss have for him first. then i said i better get out of this conversation, because as i have repeatedly said to everyone who will listen, do not take any advice from my idiot self. anyway….now it is only 90 degrees here. whatever. overeat and tv jurassic park to make it through the boring day and back to both my bane and my savior, work tomorrow.
I am probably already ‘in trouble’ anyway so fuck it what do I have to lose? I thought this interesting in that it gives a CLUE and I believe a valid one as to how this is DONE. What is done…………….our massive brainwashing and living in a world of lies. It can’t just be an ‘accident’ somebody and for some agenda MUST be doing it
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/12/how-technology-disrupted-the-truth
Daniel – these articles are tough going I admit I could only stomack a bit of it………I could only keep thinking the Guardian here as usual with all the puffery and hocus pocus is just as ‘useless’ as most of the things it criticizes. All the ‘examples’ it takes are typical liberal 1/2 truths if the ‘media’ are no longer believed the likes of the Guardian could take a good look at themselves they are quiet ‘useless’ now in anything that really matters imo………..they MIGHT start with Nice and Munich as total Zionist hoaxes but they won’t though the ‘evidence’ is there……………starting with the SAME photographer/journalist ‘witnessing’ BOTH events. But they won’t probe that and neither will you for whatever your reasons are
Thanks for this Daniel. Great article.
“Ain’t living long like this Can’t live at all like this,can I baby? ” well i didn’t write the lyrics, i wish it did.
someone at work today said spielberg had made videos of tons of holocaust survivors telling their horror stories. maybe it would help to watch those. i don’t know if they were being monitored by lie detector equipment, but it might help to see their faces as they speak. i guess they could all be actors, but it might help you in your search for the truth. you do realize the absolute horrors that one man can inflict on another, right? the holocaust could probably be proved by geometry, but i myself remain convinced (and dismayed to the billionth power) that those years of unbelievable pain actually did exist.
and i will say on a personal level, that i glimpsed today in my head the visual horror of being torn from my mom at 10 months and left to cry it out ALONE in a bassinette (and worse) for seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks (all of which is an eternity in baby time-much like dog time). and they aint no way no how a century of PT could dissolve that tumor. it is buried down near limbus, deep and solid.
Otto, what you say reminds me of something I read a few months ago about Buddhism. They have this idea about how some types of ‘karma’ can’t be dissolved in any one lifetime but takes sometimes up to 50 (lifetimes). I sort of like that idea in my own case it feels kind of true. I feel I have ‘voyaged’ so much but not enough or there is more and more…………..yesterday we were driving out of Cork in Ireland where I went to college anyway on the right side of the road up on a large hill is a VERY large and old building that used to house all the ‘mentally ill’ for that county (Cork). Like a truly massive building esp for those days and it got me thinking of all the trauma all the unutterable pain that was forced on people by the English as it happens if it was not them would it be someone else probably so maybe would have been ourselves even, Though I don’t really believe that I think ‘tribes’ if they are left alone can do fine for very long stretches of time and we were not left alone that’s for sure
And this ‘building’ I think is a feature of all counties in Ireland as it happens again I went to boarding school in Killarney (Lakes of Killarney – same place) and once again there was that ‘building’ again on top of a hill overlooking the town. It was also for the ‘mentally ill’. It must also have been put there as a constant visual reminder to the people…………..like this is what will or could happen to you if you step out of line step out of line even in your own mind, ‘free think’ you might say. It was a warning you will go crazy and we will lock you up in a place like this. And funnily enough I don’t see things so different to day. Like David’s ‘warning’ to me…………….there is no force involved thank God for that but mentally people still have their borders beyond which they dare not stray. So if as I feel I probe ‘deeper’ of course there will be people (and English co-incidentally or not) will say that is ‘crazy’ or whatever. But it does not ‘scare’ me not really to me it says more about them than me or as much. To ‘reduce’ most of even all ‘real world’ kind of concerns to being some kind of mental projection is lame and lazy and weak. And is a kind of reflex reaction for a lot of people today, they would rather take the easy way out and pretends it’s all just something ‘inside’. It is that too of course it is but to REDUCE it to that is far from a solution and is more just a symptom of how truly powerless we have become or how we have internalized that message. Not for me that does not work at all
To come back to this thing about a ‘warning’ my Dad ONCE visited the ‘mad house’ in Killarney to see something there I think and it made a massive impression on him………he ‘warned’ me a few times about it and the essence of it was the ‘border’ between sanity and insanity was VERY narrow. My Dad did this to me in a very friendly and helpful way it just his way of saying ‘watch out’ I took it that way and even now I suppose it gives me ‘confidence’ confidence in myself to know and keep going. He used to even quote this line ‘great wits are sure to madness near allied/and thin partitions do their bounds divide” from one of the English poets. Anyway I am rambling around here but I do NOT accept what I see as the kind of typical ‘weak tea’ that David puts out……………..where it seems most if not all ‘real world’ concerns are ‘reduced’ so some inner psychological ‘projection’. Also David this kind of stuff is not exactly new it has been going on at least from the time of Freud do you see anything being ‘solved’ by that kind of approach. I don’t.
It’s interesting also that those buildings still are there, I don’t know if they maybe even still function as ‘mental hospitals’ I think they still are that actually even if the don’t practice electro shock or lobotomies. But I think they STILL serve this function of ‘warning’ watch out if you think for yourself too much you will go crazy too and end up here and they are perched high up on hills where they can’t be missed
one last thing, I do believe the Israelis are and have been harsh to their arab brothers over the years, and the arabs are and have been harsh to their arab brothers. as are all men. what a joke this is. and as a balance we get sex, music and food? i better not say more. god is beating me up all the time now.
And in the meantime, and without ignoring Israeli problematic policies, isn’t it ironic that Israel now is practically the safest place for an Arab to be in the middle east? There are about 1.5 Million Arab citizens in Israel, living a democratic life with economic opportunities, free speech, free movement, access to a functioning and equal court system, and modern health and education systems.
Even the Arabs in the occupied territories (who are not Israeli citizens) do so much better than their brothers and sisters across the border whose lot in life these days is tragedy and tragedy alone.
> I would not mind either that my therapy would be filmed, as long as i would have a say in leaving out some stuff that iimplies too directly other persons .
> now still have to read other comments
>
> Patrick, it is not true what you say about criticism not being listened to here.
> a problem is a lot of your criticism is so vague and general that it cannot properly be replied to.
> another thing is you tend to ignore what you do not want to hear, but well, let’s not start a struggle over this please.
> M
It was so cold of me to say that the holocaust could be proved by geometry. that is too fucking german. but any sentient being can go to the site of one of those death camps, stand still for a minute, and feel the absolute horror of what went on there. i dont believe a lot in ghosts, but i know that this is true.
No matter what you say, it is poetry.
Otto – they were not ‘death camps’ they were labor camps or work camps. No ‘boss’ wants his workers to die……………they became ‘death camps’ mostly due to Allied bombing causing starvation at the end and earlier because of typhus. Typhus that as a problem was ‘solved’ by Zyklon B the same ‘gas’ that supposedly was used on inmates but never was and was never intended ever to be. This is the ‘supreme lie’ Zyklon B SAVED lives not caused them. I know ‘international Jewry’ has awesome propoganda power but the facts and the truth remain in spite of them.
Otto, I’m sure you know not one of these statements from an Axis Powers’ PR man is even remotely close to reality. They are recitations of ravings by deranged men who nevertheless ignorantly pontificate to the four winds.
1. No, not a single one. There is HUGE evidence about what happened in the German death camps, openly available to all interested and I’m not going to discuss this issue with you any further. Yours is nothing but a hateful political agenda that has nothing to do with reality, as is your use of the Jew-hating term “International Jewry”.
2. Among the major US news media, CNN, Fox News, USA Today, The Wall street Journal, the LA times and the NY Post were neither founded nor are owned or published or edited by Jews. CBS and NBC were founded by Jewish people and are owned today by corporations whose major stockholders include Jewish people. ABC was founded by non-Jews and is owned by the Walt Disney company (whose CEO and a substantial owner is Jewish). The NY Times was founded and is owned by non-Jews. It is published by a half-Jew and edited in chief by a non-Jew.
So, do Jews “own all the media” as you say? The only ‘place’ Jews own all the media in is your mind, and the minds of other Jew haters, racists and bigots who actively search for the ethnic background of people as a condemning factor.
3. Being deranged and paranoid – it is my impression as a regular citizen of this world and yes, also my tentative professional judgment.
The article about ‘being a man’ David linked to and following discussion brought to mind the end of the Illiad, which probably was written almost 3000 years ago. The following passage, in which the aging king Priam of Troy comes to ask Achilles for the body of his son Hector, who has been killed by Achilles, touches upon some of the same issues discussed here.
> hi all,
> this seems one time I have no postretreat dip, or postreturn home.
> on the contrary really, I feel energized and make plans to improve my life here still.
> tomorrow is the bus trip with my mom and a group of the nursing home, my sister and me go as volunteers and I look forward to it.
> maybe too much, it might be a disappointment, but hey, as long as I can be optimistic I enjoy it.
> a guided visit to a rose garden and then a drink and some snack can’t be too bad, hope my mom also enjoys it.
> I have to be prepared though to her being very repetitive and wanting a lot of attention, which always triggers me, but my halfsister can see the funny side more easily than me as she did not grow up with my mom, and her laughter enables me as well to laugh instead of getting irritated or feeling like crying.
>
> and I enjoy so much being together with my cats, and they do so too, they are so extra affectionate, were affectionate already but now they really come for more and purr and enjoy the petting so much it makes me feel all peaceful and happy as well.
> they stay close, and sleep with me on the bed, and want to play, in any which way they can think of, it is so pleasant…
>
> it is also nice to be home and to have many things I can do, and have to do, shopping, household, reading, solving Iphone problem, social contacts etc.
> feel so much more in control here, which of course would also be the case if I lived in L.A., but it is harder on a short visit.
>
> and my ongoing feeling at this stay of unsafety did not help really, although it was useful to address the deeper layer to some degree, I am glad right now it is back to its deep underground cover, waiting for another strong trigger to surface probably.
>
> so at this moment I feel ok, and enjoy it while it lasts.
> I am so grateful for all the nice people that helped me and made my stay pleasurable with their company.
>
> some strong feelings really took me by surprise, and the effects usually keep showing later on as they develop over time…
>
> right now I feel up to more than I did before my trip.
> have made an appointment about starting some volunteer work eventually, and am not sure if I will also sign up for singing class again, next to the gym class and the two courses I am doing right now, and possibley joining a dating agency as well..
> must be careful not to overload my program but mm, maybe I will go for all of it…
> M
Margaret,
You mentioned being more in control at home. I realize that you may have meant something different from what I experience, but I could relate it to my own experience,.
When I go to California, I am less in control and more dependent on others. That plays a lot into the feelings that come up. Last fall I went to La for five days and had sessions and groups. I felt fine just before I left home, but had a lot of anxiety after arriving in LA. At the end of the trip I had an extended private session. Barry told me that now I know how afraid I really am and that is progress. It was revealing to know how much fear was under that normal obsessive/ruminating anxiety. During that trip it all came out and, as I said, being out of my normal life and routines was key to the anxiety being stirred up, which lead to the fear.
The retreat trips offer more safety than the trips when I just go to the Institute in LA. I feel comfortable up there after the first day or 2,. In LA, I am out on the real world between groups. sessions and hanging out with other Primal people
Donal,
Bum’s small dog bum-rushed me and my dog tonight in the park. Walking my dog in the park and his dog rushes up and I have to grab sophie and I am immediately pissed because this is the park where some bum’s pit bull attacked me and otto 2 years ago and it took an hour to get his teeth out of otto. Bum’s dog tonight rushed me in fullish moon gravity pull. My cousin died last night, drowned in a swimming pool, probably from drinking and drugging and got hot in Lancaster after building a new prison all day, so he probably went into the pool. Uncle murderer has bum-rushed me to kill me, so I reacted and yelled at this bum, screaming many harsh words as to why his fucking dog had no leash on. And z says I am inappropriate for yelling at this fuck. This fuck wanted to fight after I kept walking away and yelling shit at him. Mother fucking assyhole. I would have killed his stupid ass. Fucking folding his cocksucking clothes in his fucking homeless car at the fucking park. I would have killed him. He wanted to challenge me. Everyone in the park heard me, you know how loud I can be. Fucking bums. So z stayed back to explain what had happened two years ago, and then ½ hour later leaves this fuck to tell me how inappropriate I was. That’s not ok. We have to have a joint session. Yeah bitch most of my deep seated anger revolves around your stupkd money spending for 40 years. I am working 10 hour days to pay for her stupidity. Cunt. Non-cocksucking cunt. She defends everyone one but me. She gets away with so much fucking shit. No more bitch. She says she could see right away that the bum’s dog was sweet, but then she cant recognize my face ½ hour later when I drive to her slow-ass self to pick her up in the car. Tyhis cunt has no fucking sense at all. I can see how I could have gotten killed in this rage situation, but fuck it. Fuck yourself bitch. You still give me nothing. Not a fucking thing.
This morning I woke up from a dream where they were showing ‘movies’ in the sky. And I am going like ‘look, that can’t be an accident this shows there are people behind this’ and some people were saying ‘oh it could be a co-incidence the clouds just happened to come together in that way’……….and the feeling is how difficult it is to make people ‘see’ if they do not want to. And it is difficult!
Monday we finally START to have a good day here, sunrise actually I can see but hold on……………here some the planes, intense spraying all over the sky, by the afternoon the sky is full of ‘clouds’ well not clouds as we knew them but these modern toxic aerosols people ‘think’ are clouds. I have a Dutch friend visiting me here and I thought he said a wonderful thing he is not so much into being ‘anti chemtrails’ but he simply said “Vermeer never painted clouds like those” and I thought it so insighful and ‘smart’ no Vermeer did not because those ‘clouds’ were not there in his day………..they are now big time and we have the weather to prove it. David you might probe into that a bit maybe a lot of ‘mental depression’ is the RESULT of ‘outside’ things not the CAUSE as you seem to think. Anyway it is no wonder to me if people in the UK are ‘depressed’ with skies like they have now and that’s no ‘mental projection’ even if my dream was. And so long as people keep believing their ‘depression’ all comes from ‘inside’ well they are and will remain powerless. (and depressed interestingly enough) Just like their ‘authorities’ want and you won’t read that in the Guardian. I’m sure they would call it a ‘conspiracy theory’ well do I believe them or my own eyes. I have to go with my eyes in this case lol.
Otto,
I can see why you’d react that way about the dog rushing you in the park.
I hope you can make use of the incident, including Z’s reaction, to get some
relief from the old feelings it might trigger.
I had my first Spanish meetup group yesterday at a Panera restaurant. I wasn’t at all energized or enthusiastic ahead of time. More nervous and apprehensive than anything. But it turned out really well. Four people showed up of various skills in Spanish and we practiced by having conversations as a group. I wasn’t the best speaker, but not the worst either.
It is an easy group to manage as the only goal is to talk. When I got home I continued by speaking some Spanish with my wife as it was on my mind, and on the tip of my tongue. So, I think this group can achieve exactly what I want. I’m impressed with the Meetup company and how it works well to bring people together.
For fun I looked to see if there are any existing primal therapy meetup groups. No, but there are primal/paleo diet groups. The word primal has now been mostly co-opted by the paleo diet people it seems.
Phil
Good news Phil. I’m glad it’s turning out well.
Hola Phil. Good news that your meet-up group was ‘fruitful.’ I’ve tip that might be useful to your group. Listening to Spanish has been helpful to me when I want to brush up and not lose what I’ve learned in school. I watch American movie dvd’s which usually also has Spanish audio and Spanish subtitles besides the English options. I like the English audio and Spanish subtitles, myself. Of course there are Spanish movies too.
I was glad to hear you mom is doing so well and adjusting, Margaret.
S
> Phil,
> sounds like your meetup group took a flying start! Felicitationes!
>
> Donal, sounds like we are talking about the same stuff.
> thanks for sharing that, it is good to hear those feelings related to being dependant on others are not only exclusive to the disability, there are so many other layers we seem to share in some way..
>
> today me and my halfsister joined the first group trip my mom participated with of her section of the nursing home.
> all other participants were in wheelchairs and my sister u
>
> pushed one of those, as one of the volunteers, while I had my o
> mom on my arm, also a bit of a handful but it worked out well, and everybody enjoyed the afternoon, splendid weather, a tour in a rose garden, a walk in a beautiful park, and then a drink in the cool shadow of a small castle in the middle of the park.
> the lady responsible for the activities on my mom’s part of the nursing home was very pleased with our presence, as my mom being the only one being (very) mobile, gives them more work actually as she tends to wander off to whatever she sees that interests her, and also in the beginning of her stay there she was somewhat rebellious too.
> but now they could see her adjusting well, and I kept her from wandering off, and she really behaved very well, and spontaneously thanked the organizing lady at the end.
> I am so happy my mom (and we) have come from a difficult case at the start, to well adjusted, my mom seems to be liked by a lot of staff members there, and me and my sisters help as volunteers was highly appreciated.
>
> mom does not make any problem anymore of living in the home, even though when we left it was funny, she saw the sign ‘nursing home …’ and said ‘I could never ever live in a place like that’..
> but every time we refreshed her memory she was living there for two months now, and seemed happy with it, she immediately accepted it.
> also when we leave there is no problem whatsoever, she walks us to the elevator and happily waves goodbye and is already back on her way to finish her dinner when the doors close.
>
> it feels very good, to see she is content there, and gets along well with the people who look after her, and who are very friendly and warm.
>
> so although it took a lot of energy, it was a very good experience.
> it was a very good step to encourage her to move to that home, she is thriving there now.
> feel so happy for my brother as well, sent him a long e-mail about it so he can relax as well and be reassured she is doing fine now.
> M
Patrick.
I have been reading your posts regarding the cloudiness in Ireland. I am always amazed by the copious number of clouds racing across the sky when I am there. Also, by the overcast and cool summer days which is often the case. I am to understand that it is now worse? Hard to imaging when I think back on some of the dreary summers of my childhood (well weather was dreary not just primal stuff…lol). I remember some uncharacteristically hot summers too….76 and 84 the two most notable You cannot rely on a summer in Ireland.
Donal
Phil,
Glad to here the meetup group worked out. I hope it continues to go well for you. I was going to join one a few years back but did not get to the very basic level of Spanish required.
Interesting that the Paleo people have adopted primal as a term. Primal therapy seems have been generally forgotten about except by a small number of us that know it works, Even the critiques of the therapy (Anthony Clare, Alice Miller, for example) were written a long time ago now. I wonder why it faded so much?
Donal.
It seems I was a bit ahead of my time on this, I wrote the blog about the paleo diet almost 4 years ago. I go with ‘paleo’ or ‘primal’ in general as a general approach to things but I feel now the ‘paleo diet’ falls a bit into the same trap as primal therapy in the sense of the attempt to ‘do it all’ through that one mode. It’s like ALL of these things are important not just one and I would say they all are needed to somewhat at least combat the war on nature which we all seem to be exposed to. Some people say we are entering “End Times”……….
Donal – a bit more on the above. I met with some of the few ‘chemtrails activists’ in Wexford and they were ‘veterans’ of the anti flouride campaigns and one of them said to me it is ‘no accident’ that Ireland is now the only EU country with total flouridation of their water supply. I wondered what he meant he said the Irish are known to be ‘unruly’ and ‘independant thinkers’ and this is a ‘threat’ to the system and is a way to pacify and make stupid (as if we needed help!) the Irish. I read somewhere recently that flouride in the water takes 10 points off your IQ I don’t necessarily think that is a ‘scientific’ statement but I believe there is a lot in it.
I have succeeding in resurrecting an old spring on our farm here so my brother is thrilled with the water he is now drinking, this week we are working to get the same water to all his sheep. So then his sheep will have non flouridated water, have no vaccines but he is now ‘worried’ about what is dropping from the sky. Hense the rain water tests we will get the results next Friday I will let you know what they say. It’s like it’s a huge effort here to get back to something like ‘nature’ there is so much human messing and interfering with everything but we will see how it goes. Sometimes I think of this spraying of the skies as being like in-voluntary vaccination like vaccination is supposed to get aluminum into you you may think you are ‘smart’ and avoid that well they will get you then by spraying it in the air. I am sure David will see this as more evidence of some unconscious ‘fear’ I have not gotten to yet and I am sure there is something to that but that is not all of it either. I try to have a complete picture.
I just saw this and if true this is very troubling indeed. It is about the California lack of rain so it seems there rain and cloud cover is denied and here we get it up the ying yang. If you look on the bottom left of that screen you will see they are talking about this month so a real time situation in California. What in the hell is going on?
http://www.aircrap.org/2016/08/18/massive-pacific-moisture-blocked-entering-california-daily/
Donal (or anyone else who might be interested) if you look at that video about the weather in CA aside from the fact these ‘clouds’ never come on shore have a look at these ‘clouds’. That is what I mean by ‘un-natural’ I see those kinds of so called clouds here also but they are more mixed in with ‘real’ clouds. Anyway see the shapes, the straight lines (nature does not have straight lines) the weird swirls and also this kind of ‘archipelago’ type effect. Also they sometimes look like someone used some kind of gigantic ‘soapy water’ in the sky. NOT natural not the clouds Vermeer painted or ever saw……………this gets really dark though it seems the rain is being denied in CA the very thing they need, there is some kind of gigantic fire going on right now east of LA and they could use rain or even cloud cover…………..do they get it NO!………..or here it goes without saying we could use some sunshine and lack of clouds………do we get it NO! again. So who’s doing this for what reason, what is the agenda etc etc. This is why I find guys like 108morris108 WAY ahead of the Guardian not to pick on them most all of ‘establishment’ media and even ‘anti establishment’ also. Amy Goodman on KPFK will NEVER approach these kind of issues either. It’s left to the likes of me who is just a ‘paranoiac’ they way Daniel see it. Be that as it may I do not here any ‘explanations’ from him either………….
I do not make these undermentioned quotes back to you lightly, but to demonstrate that I read your messages.
Quote 1:-” Anyway yes it IS worse and worse………..the reason I came to Ireland this summer was to ‘investigate’ a bit more and even hopefully do something about it.”
Quote 2:-“As I kind of said earlier you won’t read about that in the Guardian for example they are way too busy being politically correct as in hate Trump, mentioned some aspect of the ‘holocaust’ every few days never much make a connection with ”
Quote 3:-:”as far as ‘ravings of deranged’ men is that your ‘professional’ opinion as a therapist or just your biased clan thinking??…………a question I also put to Gretchen for which I never got a satisfactory answer at least to me……….you throw around words like ‘paranoiac’ very very loosely does not seem ‘professional’ very much to me……..but you pose as one………”
Quote 4:-“David you might probe into that a bit maybe a lot of ‘mental depression’ is the RESULT of ‘outside’ things not the CAUSE as you seem to think. ”
Quote 5:- “But I think they STILL serve this function of ‘warning’ watch out if you think for yourself too much you will go crazy too and end up here and they are perched high up on hills where they can’t be missed”
Quote 6 :-“Otto – they were not ‘death camps’ they were labor camps or work camps. No ‘boss’ wants his workers to die……………they became ‘death camps’ mostly due to Allied bombing causing starvation at the end and earlier because of typhus. Typhus that as a problem was ‘solved’ by Zyklon B the same ‘gas’ that supposedly was used on inmates but never was and was never intended ever to be. This is the ‘supreme lie’ Zyklon B SAVED lives not caused them. I know ‘international Jewry’ has awesome propoganda power but the facts and the truth remain in spite of them.”
Quote 7:-” Also David this kind of stuff is not exactly new it has been going on at least from the time of Freud do you see anything being ‘solved’ by that kind of approach. I don’
I doubt you ever read mine, least-ways with any depth. I will re-iterate what I said in my book about “Truth and Faults” They are indeterminate at best, and rely on the opinion emanating from one early experience (most of which are already forgotten) and from later experiences that merely re-endorse what one already believes. On this very topic, it is noteworthy that you are into (unsympathetically) to the Judaism and Jewish culture, to the exclusion of Christianity and Christian Culture, but seemingly sympathetic to Muslim cultures, (for reasons of your own, that I know not of)..
All down recorded time (time as we know it) mankind has been grappling with “whats amiss with us” … humans. We first tried Gods and totem poles (presumably) then we hit upon philosophy (your studies) then mono theism (a la Abraham) then Christianity, a la Saul of Taurus, and then re modified by Mohamed. Meantime, we’ve thought-out diets and exercise None of which actually “puts our finger on the ultimate problem”. Of course that, so far, remains the realm of Arthur Janov, me, and some few others. What I personally find revealing is:- that until we are able to “look int ourselves” We are using outside incidents, to explain our human problem (the wrong approach IMO). I hope that there will be another revival of Primal notion … if not; then like you, I feel mankind is doomed. We’ fucked-up the planet no end .. and I feel it’s becoming very obvious to many … hence all these other attempts to right it all. Why it all went wrong in the first place is up for grabs.
Without Primal Pain there would no need for any of it, and most of it would naturally resolve itself. Yes there would remain sadness, anger and fear and quite a bit of happiness. That IMO is normal natural and instictive. The rest is BS
To and for me, the discovery of Primal Pain and the (brilliant) formation of Primal Theory; was the greatest single discovery mankind every made about ourselves. We’ve floundered with this problem that we are ‘subliminally’ aware of, all down recorded time. What is interesting to me is:- no other creature on the planet delves these matters; but merely just instinctively, simply and normally, gets on with life with little or no problem … unless interfered with by hunkind.
Jack
P.S. You seemingly are obsessed with long posts and rebuttals … seeming getting no-where … and I doubt to your own satisfaction.
J
I’ve been away in Manitoba to attend a friend’s wedding. He is 74 and it’s his first marriage, and in fact his first girlfriend.. She is 68. Her first and only other husband died of cancer many years ago. I think it’s inspiring that at his late stage of life my friend allowed himself to fall in love for the first time.
Anyway, while away I had little time and no easy access to a computer to post a reply in reaction to some of the posts of the last while. Until now. My ongoing strongest reaction is, Patrick I’m startled by your deepening retreat into delusion.
To all that might want to read me:-
I am back to my comfort zone in LA and with my Jimbo. It sure was an adventure, but not one I want to repeat any time soon. There was much about it that was very moving, quite a bit that was even amusing, and I was very much looked after by my nephew Mark and his sister (niece) Louise. That made it bearable, BUT the cold, cloudy skies, windy and rainy weather, was not to my liking at all. Ibiza spoiled me, for clear blue skies and sunshine … being a sun freak.
All told, I am happy that I went and did accomplish much of what we (Mark and I) set out to do.
I know that I now have to do for my Jimbo, what he did for me for 36 years. I am willing to do just that. BUT then life, especially in a relationship, is always a compromise.
So!!! back to normal (whatever ‘normal’ is supposed to mean). I did bask in the sun for several minutes today, and it was pure heaven.
One last point:- the trip out was LAX to Gatwick London, (being cheaper to book singles rather than a return trip) and we booked a single flight via Norwegian Air lines. A very comfortable and modern aircraft, excellent service and food.
The journey out, was easier since we booked a B & B on arrival and was able to sleep before driving to Cornwall, (300 miles) to be with Louise and family. The return trip from Cornwall was all one day that made it very, very tiring. Cornwall, I would think is the best county in England with quaint houses, narrow country roads, very cute villages and picturesque scenery with rolling hills and quaint little villages. Notorious for the Rivera of England. However, great to visit, BUT no desire to settle there.
Jack
Quote:- “if someone like me brings it up here I am thought just to be maybe ‘acting out a feeling he can’t ‘get’ to’ ” Well ! aren’t you ??????????
You sound extremely bitter about something … in that Irish child hood … but seemingly ARE unable to get to it … as I see it. It really must be hurting bad.
Jack
> just gave my mom a call.
> it was both funny, reasssuring and heartbreaking she said at some point ‘no no honey, I don’t live in that nursing home, I am living at home here, and there is a girlfriend here, I do not live in that home, I am fine at home here’…
>
> the good thing is she is feeling safe and happy, and is still able to enjoy life, despite forgetting most of what happens instantaneously.
> it is still possible to have some conversation with her, and she does ask how we are, and to me how my brother is etc.
> she advises me to make sure I have some good times, and says I should find a boyfriend, smiley.
> but of course there always remains a bit of a sad undertone of ongoing goodbye.
> but we do count our blessings mostly now, things go much better than expected really, and it feels very good to hear her being cheerful and optimistic.
> so now I better follow her advice and keep working on making my own life as happy as possible as well..
> M
> I am surprised at how disappointed I geel, about the coffeegrinder I mentioned earlier on.
> my brother had told me he put it on the chimney so I thought about it this morning and went to check it out.
> I really expected the old familiear wooden simple coffee grinder, but found this more fancy one, old as well, and probably more special, covered with iron adornments and entirely covered with a metal sheet and fancy little things.
> only the inside little wooden drawer for the coffee reminded me of the coffee grinder I had in mind, but even here, it did not smell of coffee so was maybe never used..
>
> I had looked forward to that old mill, which I had used as a kid, now feel disappoint4d by this unknown one, which does not feel nice and warm to the touch as wood did, might still start to use it, but hey, not the same at all!!!!
>
> no way to retrieve the old one, as all things are gone now..
> hard to to communicate this to my brother,as he probably thought he was gona make me happy with this one, he must also have found it between our mom’s stuff, it is amazing she still has things like that I had not seen before, it is not that small really..
> so goodbye old coffeegrinder, I had looked forward to cleaning you up and using you and enjoying the memories and feel of this connection with the past..
> it is hard not to ‘hate’ this one, ha, for not being the one I had looked forward to..
> M
> all the crazy crap on here, so sick…
>
Margaret: You say: “all the crazy crap on here, so sick”. There are 769 comments … are they ALL crazy????? I thought that remark of yours was a little judgmental and unspecific. Sort of making your feeling “a fact”
Jack
I agree with Margaret, and obviously she isn’t referring to every post, Jack.
“That’s just your feeling”. How many times have I heard that silencing tactic over the years…
All writing, all art, all expression is people saying what they feel, whether they realise it or not. Otherwise we wouldn’t bother…
Erron:- I am responding to your comment to me; not because you agree with Margaret, but because I feel she was not specific, my point. I felt, there were potentially others that MIGHT have felt she was referring to them also. I take my cue for “specificity from Vivian, who often said at retreat (including to me) “be specific”.
I agree entirely with your last line … my sentiment also
It is sad, to me, that Gretchen and Barry now feel the need to censor certain comments. I understand why, that’s not the issue. It is sad that on a feeling blog, any form of censorship is deemed necessary, but I agree that Patrick has gone ‘beyond the pale’. Knowing him, as I have, over a period of more than 35 years, I see clearly where he is coming from. Simply put, he’s externalizing deep hurt and trauma; that being MY perspective only.
Jack
I’m disgusted as well. Never in my worst dreams did I imagine that the PI, a place dedicated to the search for personal truth and the alleviation of personal suffering, would become a vehicle for the publishing of some of the vilest ideas to ever ‘walk’ the planet. Obviously it’s more personal to me because I’m Jewish and all this lying hate and abominations are directed at my kind, but it should be, and is, an assault on decency itself and therefore on decent people everywhere.
I’m not being Naïve, I know that institutions devoted to mental health attract also ‘mental’ cases, and therapeutically certainly all help should be given to them. But, this isn’t the same as providing a stage for the dissemination of poison, allowing hateful minds to take advantage of the hospitality and trust extended to all.
This is the age of the internet, the great equalizer, where voices are given to those unheard before. This is wonderful because it unlocks human potential. But at the same time this equalization has a very dark side, where among other things somebody can be a real expert on a particular subject, to have devoted a career to it along lines of knowledge and ethics that have evolved and been established over centuries; and another person can, without any responsibility or accountability, just say things. And both of them get published online as if they are the same.
The published has a unique force. It communicates, it creates a web. That web can be of creativity, true knowledge and an affirmation of life; or it can be, as we constantly encounter, of hate, ignorance and the destruction of living forces.
Daniel, I was thinking the same thing as a matter of fact . Everything you said is one hundred percent true. Initially we really did not want to censor anyone particularly someone who had negative things to say about Primal. But this is something else altogether. Also I really wanted to avoid becoming the blog police. I can see now however that I will have to be. As a result I have just erased the last few comments. Though I have said this numerous times I will say it again ….we will not tolerate anti Semitic, racist or homophobic comments on the blog. It truly disgusts me and I can assure you that many people have expressed the same feelings. In fact the only feelings expressed have been those of disgust. You are right anyone can say anything as though it’s the truth, completely uneducated comments ( and by the way that is what struck me time and time again when I watched the videos that were posted . There is never one ounce of scientific evidence presented). Initially I think most people either expressed concern or tried to point out how ludicrous these claims were. But obviously it goes no where. I have not blocked Patrick and he is free to come here and say his feelings but I will be erasing the nazi rants from now on as quickly as I can. At this point everyone in and out of the Primal community knows Patrick’s views. There’s no reason to hear any of it again. He is free to believe as he chooses but we have heard enough. By the way Patrick I think your example of the swimmers in Rio makes the opposite argument from the one you presented. The boys involved took about two minutes to confess their lies. Do you really think that hundreds or thousands of people could keep the secret of being involved in faking terrorist acts all over the world over many years? Does that make any sense? I don’t think so. Anyway Daniel,Barry and I will take a break from controlling the media and all financial institutions ( not to mention the changing weather patterns ) to monitor this issue for as long as it takes. Gretchen
This is good news. thanks Gretchen
Thanks Gretchen, I know it must be a bummer having to actually censor things, and it’s testimony that it really has gone far enough and all leeway was exhausted to the fullest. If it’s any consolation it’s a worldwide problem. I recently heard that Twitter actually deleted 135,000 accounts because of hate and incitement.
> Jack,
> of course I don’t mean all the comments, but yes, some feel to me like they lose more and more touch with reality and there is so much bitterness in them it is starting to feel sickening to read them, so most of the time I delete them halfway through.
> M
> Erron,
> thanks, smiley.
> and I agree with you ‘it is your feeling’ should not be overly used and certainly not as a silencer.
> it can be very useful of course, specially if underlying old stuff needs attention or if the addressee seems unaware of projecting but hey, in this case yes, it is my feeling some of the comments are crazy crap and a huge act out ..
> and too much of that shit can damage the blog imo and even give it a bad name, or eventually even a bad digital label or otherwise.
> we do not want to pop up on search machines as belonging to crazy racist propaganda do we?
> I still feel so much like Phil’s behavioral guidelines would be very useful, they are not impeding anyone of expressing themselves, but can put limits to the number of people dumping their unproductive shit on here without any limitations.
> and no, I am not going for the person, everyone here without exclusion has posted meaningful comments, but words like ‘Jewry’ in the context they were used in is for me beyond acceptable, among other things.
> I thought long ago a warning about this had been given already..
> but well, I can only express my opinion which occasionally needs to be expressed, when things start getting to me as feeling invasive somehow..
> M
> gretchen,
> thanks.
> some of my comments I have written earlier on might still be posted, but I just want to make clear they have been written and sent before yours appeared, and get pasted onto the blog with a time delay.
>
> still, I am so glad we won’t have to be faced over and over again with the hateful and hurtful nonsense brought up over and again and soiling this precious place that can serve more productive goals.
> ha, big sigh of relief..
> M
Tragic, too, to witness someone’s mental health slipping away, by my reckoning.
It makes you wonder, doesn’t it Larry, that hatred and fear could be clouding what is true mental illness or decline. I see Trump say things everyday that seem so strange and his quickness to believe in rumors. Now even Rudy Guiliani is believing in internet conspiracies. Is this just poor aging of the brain going on?
I thought your friends at their age getting married was great, very hopeful and a delight.
Jack, I did enjoy hearing about your trip abroad. Thanks for sharing.
S
Sylvia: I enjoyed relating it. It was memorable in many respects and relating it confirmed my feelings on it.
Jack
It’s not that “hate” per se is a problem as long as it is taken to where it all actually stems from. The probelm, as I see it, both from the one hating and others having to listen to it, is when it is misplaced.
Tradgically, I find those doing the hating, are reluctant to see it any other way. It’s a case of looking inward … not projecting it outwards.
Leastways these are my sentiments on the matter.
Larry: yep, there’s always a chance … I hope for the best for you.
Jack
Close to home, only a few small towns away, last week a farm property owner shot and killed a young person in a car full of aboriginal youth who drove into his yard seeking help with a flat tire. The incident sparked an explosion of ugly racist hate online. The Premier of the province and the National Farmers’ Union called for an end to the racist comments, the Premier stating publicly
“These comments are not only unacceptable, intolerant and a betrayal of the very values and character of Saskatchewan, they are dangerous,” and “There are laws that protect citizens from what this kind of hate may foment. They will be enforced.”
It’s easy to mistrust, hate, and demonize the other and retreat into tribalism, us against them. It’s more difficult, more complex and maybe riskier to empathize and try to understand the other, to develop trust and learn to work together and help each other. Trust and friendship makes us human. Without trust and caring relationships fail. Societies built on trust are efficient and successful, while those without trust fall apart.
The only reason for putting up with Patrick’s ugly comments on this blog is in the hope that it might help him learn of the wellspring from which his hate originates. But after all the years he’s been on the blog he seems incapable of learning about himself, or he’s very slow. I think that in his case letting him spew his hatred here is enabling his racism and paranoia more than helping him.
I wonder what Patrick would do if he discovered he had some Jewish ancestry.
Larry: for the most part I can agree with all you say … BUT I do have a concern for your second paragraph, where you state one must develop “Trust”. There is a problem here, as I see it, as there are those that NEVER ‘trusted’ anyone, especially in early childhood and before. The question for those people is WHERE does one develop that ‘trust’????
On feeling and expressing that early ‘mistrust’ is MY take on; where we might retrieve it.
If one is able to trust, then I agree one should trust first and distrust second. However, a great deal of that is dependent on those very, very early events.
Jack
For me, I had to learn where to place trust in order for my therapy to work, trust in the therapists, trust in primal friends, and in the very beginning, trust in Gretchen, my three week therapist. It was scary to open up and place my trust in her and her advice that led me down an entirely new approach to living my life, that pried me out of my shell. I still remember pivotal comments she said to me during my three week intensive decades ago, that seemed revolutionary then but intuitively natural now.
Very nice video, Larry. And they are all young enough to have an open mind to change their views and prejudices if they need to.
Yeah, I like watching that video. I wish they showed more about the test results and how it affected thinking of the test subjects.
Larry,
That was a good post.. You have genuine good feeling for people: that part of you survived and is in tact.
At some point in therapy, I have found it becomes easier to trust people. It is a relief to let go and trust people in the present, realizing all anger, mistrust, etc. comes from early in life. Not all the time the time or with everyone, just more often and with more people.
Donal
During the time I spent with you this August Donal, you seemed more relaxed than the previous and first time I saw you a few years ago. I always enjoy your company and admire your wit.
Larry,
.
I appreciate those kind comments. Mark the therapist made a similar statement up there during one of our private sessions: that I seemed more relaxed and in good shape. A couple of other people said the same thing. It is good to know I am changing towards the more relaxed end of the spectrum 🙂 I grew up in such an uptight household always being vigilant and afraid. The main source of this atmosphere of mistrust, suspicion and anger.
Being at the retreat among people who are open and naturally kind to each other is a good antidote. After all this time, I seem to be able to accept that quite a lot of people are basically nice and genorous, not toxic like my family……I used to feel so untrusting of kindness as it was not the normal way in my family. Actually, I did not know how to deal with it.
I enjoyed hanging out with you too: it had been too long. You have a good nature and I like your openness to people. Hope you are settling back into civilian life ok 🙂
Donal
Another recent optimistic article about how social scientists appear to be adopting a more primal perspective in line with recent research. This research centres around the life long effects of what are called adverse childhood experiences (ACEs). It’s impressive and hopeful how quickly and easily it seems the ideas are taken to in communities.
“Putting the Power of Self-Knowledge to Work” by David Bornstein
This method of counting adverse childhood experiences “ACEs” could probably also be used as a way to help prove the benefits of primal therapy. There are, no doubt, too few new patients entering therapy for a statistically valid study but it could probably be done retroactively by investigating past patients and their ACEs and comparing them to some similar population which did not get therapy.
I scored myself with their survey and noticed right off that there is no category for parental illness and death during childhood, a glaring omission to my mind.
Phil
Phil,
Yes, loss of a parent through death or illness or in my case adoption was a big omission. I’m not sure how an ACE test (an unfortunate acronym I’d say…) would help to validate primal therapy. I know taking this test now I would have a higher score than if I’d taken it before starting therapy, because I’ve come to realise that my childhood was a whole lot worse than I thought it was. For a lot of people not in therapy, the test will be, to a large extent, a survey of the kind of childhood they *thought* they had. A lot of very severe traumas, like sexual abuse, a survivor may have no memory of. So more subtle, probing questions might be necessary, like are there years in your childhood you have no memory of.
The survey also validates my own understanding about how childhood trauma can create chronic illness, by an overload of stress hormones and being locked into fight or flight.
David,
For the retrospective type study I’m thinking of, patients would have to think back to before starting therapy and score themselves with the ACE survey from that perspective.
This type research could help validate the biological basis for primal therapy and theory that Janov talks about. It would be a large undertaking and won’t be happening, I’m afraid.
As you say, the ACE test is limited according to what the individual actually remembers from childhood. Yet, they came up with significant findings even with that limitation.
It also maybe shows how far we are from a real feeling society that it takes research like this ACE study to point out what should be obvious if we weren’t so neurotic.
Phil
David, thanks for the article. It’s a start to talk about people’s problems and I hope that it helps the incarcerated. Probably could help in drug programs too. I saw a 60 minutes program about prisons in Germany where the inmates are treated well, like human beings, and there is very little violence among them. Think of that, a place where they don’t feel like they’re being punished, but helped.
Yeah, I think it’s very positive. Good to hear about that 60 minutes doc and acknowledgement that incarceration in and of it’s self does not change or improve people, which should be obvious.
David: It’s interesting, but not for the reason I felt you submitted it. I quote from the site:- “This research didn’t exist when Lessing gave her lectures in 1985,”. This is utter non-sense. This had been know since 1970 but ignored by scientists in general, the medical profession and the psychological profession, for reasons, that it did not at the time, conform to their idea of a break-through … on THEIR terms.
It is a sad reflection on each of the above mentioned departments that such a revolution and major discovery was ignored for no better reason, IMO, than it did not allow their experts to come in on the ground floor WITHOUT JANOV’S PERMISSION AND TRAINING. They did not like that. They considered themselves a part of the elites. Janov, crushed their ego’s and hence they dismissed him, his findings and the discovery itself.
There were many of the band-wagon UNTIL IT WAS DEMONSTRATED TO THEM (these elites) that they needed some radical re-training. “Oh no; not us” … ‘we’re already well trained”. Alas, for the new paradigm, they were not.
Jack
> David,
> thanks for the link to that interesting article.
> it connects to such a wide field of positively orientated initiatives where the primal ideas and practical approach might be of great help and use.
> this could be a great entry into a wide area of applied primal theory if expressing feelings could be incorporated in child care etc.
> like wouldn’t it be great if practical guidelines and support and advise could be exchanged between experienced primal therapists and some of these organizations??
> so much potential there for growth and learning and healing and development of new ways of approach!!
> M
> David,
> yes, that is indeed an important omission in their test variables.
> and you make a very good point about the awareness of childhood experiences being quite different after some time of therapy than without it.
> i remember starting therapy literally by saying I had had a perfect childhood…
>
> ha….!
>
> and in my case there are just a few events that could fall under ‘serious’, like a difficult birth or several weeks of being institutionalized at the age of two, while my mom had to have a serious operation.
> but all the rest was so subtle, but continuous, that it would be hard to pinpoint and label it, certainly while not having done therapy.
> so it would indeed be hard to form good control groups for statistical evaluations, not impossible probably but very difficult.
>
> still, I feel some kind of cooperation with groups like the groups that are already focusing on negative childhood experiences and acknowledging their importance, would be so beneficial both for them, and for the people needing protection and assistance, as for therapy itself in broadening its field of application to early prevention and change of attitude in childrearing and the treatment of teenagers or adults who need help.
>
> so what if there would be a period of transition in which different interpretations and applications of Pt might occur, feelings will always try to find their way up to the surface and therapies can be adjusted over time.
>
> I would be so happy if some connection would be made between this ‘ace’ oriented large movement and PT.
> do you see it as an option Gretchen?
> just offering advice maybe as a starting point?
> or exchanging information and experiences, this sounds like a vast and positively orientated movement with its focus on the right place, childhood trauma and how to deal with it and minimalize the damage if already done.
> and maybe even more important, how to prevent more damage to be done.
> seems such an oportunity..
> M
Margaret,
Yes, me too I thought I had a happy childhood before I started therapy. Seems incredible to me now that I thought like that.
One of the things that jumped out at me about this article was the quoted reaction of people to the ACE studies: “Everybody should know about this.” That sounds to me like people are really resonating with the research findings and that it’s not hard to win them over. It sounds like the reaction of someone who has appreciated a simple, profound “home truth”. It reminds me of the reaction I had when I read The Primal Scream. I was so convinced that many, many other people would have connected with it’s message the world over after twenty years, like I had done, that when I first arrived in LA I fully expected The Primal Institute to be an enormous building to accommodate all of the global interest. Maybe I was naive to think like that, I don’t know, but I remember that when I found the actual PI I felt, well, a little let down… haha. Anyway, I think the days when a book like TPS can make the impact like it did are over, and for anything, like these research findings, to raise awareness about the connection between childhood trauma and adult dysfunction and disease is very positive. Where I agree with Jack is that there is lack here, at least from what I picked up from the article, about where to go or what to do when it comes to recovery and treatment. The emphasis is on education and raising awareness as a way to bring about change, though that’s important too of course.
David: That is the major Problem, and while I agree getting the word out that pregnancy and parenting requires UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, Mere education does not really cut it. I feel strongly that when any woman becomes pregnant, and even the man (father) go through a hormonal phase that helps both to instinctively know what is required. The problem, as I see it, is that neurosis is so, so pervasive, it more often than not impedes that natural and normal process.
While education can have some effect, I find that mere instructions (education) is insufficient in overcoming, religious, cultural and societal biases. Hence this is the very point I find lacking in studies by medical and psychological professionals, fail to reveal the essential needs for child rearing. It’s tantamount to trying to explain sight to someone born totally blind … there is NO reference point at which to start.
It’s a major paradox in the fight to rid us of neurosis. It is the reason: for all it’s popularity “The Primal Scream” and Janov, found great difficulty to continue that initial enthusiasm. We neurotics are into quick and easy fixes. The problem continues in education and schooling and there have been tomes written about just this. My take is:- Learning is simple natural and normal … teaching is complex convoluted and difficult. See A. S. Neil
“Re-Living” is seen merely as remembering. It’s way deeper than that, and unless and until one experiences a ‘re-living’; it’s impossible to convey the difference.
Jack
> as the weather is exceptionally hot these days, I often turn the water tab on a very thin stream of water in the bath, and then it is so very cute to watch my two cats.
> one sits on the narrow edge of the tub, first hitting the water with his front paws, and then starts stretching out his neck to the maximum so he can bite the thin stream of water, or lick it with a very long tongue haha, and then he also wets both of his front paws and starts washing himself specially behind his ears.
> the other sits on the seat of the bath, gets frustrated a bit as he finds the thrill of biting the water stream and then getting his head wet just a bit too much, but still makes attempts to catch it by surprise, jumping onto it where it hits the bottom but then of course gets more wet and a bit frustrated.
> but then he too starts washing himself extensively putting his front paws under the running water in turns washing behind his left and right ear, and they both allow me to make them more wet, their tail, back, belly, as to get a bit cooler.
> have filmed it once already but will give it another try as they seem to get better at this, and sometimes both are washing themselves together, taking turns in wetting their paws..
> very endearing!
> M
Thanks Donal for your hope for me that I’m settling into civilian life OK, and thanks Jack for your hoping the best for me. I find my post-retreat experience is similar to Margaret’s. Instead of the usual several weeks of post-retreat blahs, this time I don’t have any. On the day I travelled back home, after I landed I was tired and depressed, but a good sleep that night seemed to have cleared that up. What I’ve noticed post-retreat is that I’m surprised to find myself risking being a little more open and spontaneous and being myself with people and enjoying them. The result is a little more fun and meaningful connections with them. I feel them liking me, which is kind of scary.
Last weekend while in Manitoba for a friend’s wedding, I stayed with my youngest brother and his two young adult sons. His wife was in Ireland for a wedding. My brother is a grain farmer and they are starting the harvest. During our last hour together before I drove back home the next day, I rode with him for about an hour until sundown in the cab of his swather as he cut a field of oats. We talked easily and at length, mainly about farming and my work and life and how we as a culture don’t value the land that nourishes us. As we said good-bye, I felt how I miss him and could feel he misses me too. He continued swathing until 3:30 in the morning then came home to bed, while I got up at 4:30 in the morning to prepare for my drive back home. We both felt that my visit was too short. It is a little scary to me to feel that my brother misses me. When I got back home much later that day, I was kind of tired and depressed for the rest of the day, missing him and the people I visited, just like after the retreat.
Getting back to work though helps me feel OK. I’m quite enjoying being at work. Alone at home this evening, with Friday, Saturday and Sunday off and no plans, I feel tired and troubled. I watched the movie video “Criminal”, and at the end of it started sobbing deeply, feeling sooooo alone, now and all of my childhood. Alone I found the Primal Scream and made my way to LA and then the rest of my life. The only other path for me if I hadn’t was the loony bin because my parents couldn’t give me anything that would keep me out of it. I need parental emotional support but there is just vacuum and always will be. The truth keeps sinking in more naked and real and crushing. I have to find my way out of this aloneness alone. No one can change it.
My post retreat experience is pretty much what I anticipated pre-retreat. The retreat opened me up more to the empty void in me that makes me afraid to be with people. Just like at the retreat, in steps I have to approach and succumb to that void if I don’t want to be alone. I am a little boy who has no one, and an adult discovering people do want me, an alone and afraid little boy having to find my way in this world and find emotional support somewhere even though it hurts unnaturally intensely so.
Oh I hope that you somebody,
someone I could count
To pull me to my feet again
when I was in doubt
Oh now Mama, do you hear me?
I’m calling out your name
Oh now Mama, do you hear me?
I’m calling out your name,
I’m calling out your name
I’m the last cowboy in this town
Empty veins and my plastic broken crown
They said I swam the sea that ran around
They said I once was lost but now I’m truly found
And I know the place another way,
I feel, I feel no shame
Oh now Mama, do you hear my fear?
It’s coming after me
I’m calling out your name,
I’m calling out your name
Stay with me, stay with me
Did you throw your heart away?
Oh I know just what I say
Did your phone cut in the way?
Being still downtown I say
And I know you ran away,
oh I know but I’m feeling okay
And I found love and fear won’t go,
and I found love and feeling won’t go
See you walk away, feeling okay now,
happy now, happy now?
Stay with me, stay with me, stay with me, stay with me
Thanks David for the link to another David’s interesting article about ACE. Never heard of it before and I agree with all of you that any research into the connection between childhood adversity and adult mental and physical difficulties is important and advances the premises of depth psychology, which for over 100 years has insisted that our early years are indeed formative.
Two elements in the article (and the links in it) were evocative for me. The first is the contrast between the title that emphasizes Self-knowledge, and the programs that mostly emphasize interaction and interconnectedness. It raises the interesting question of what shapes do curative factors take, or rather, what instigates such curative factors in the first place. Especially, what is the role of the other in such processes?
The second element was the surprise finding that people 55 and older have so much fewer ACE’s. Perhaps it’s there but I couldn’t find their explanation for this. It seems like there are two possible explanations, one more intriguing than the other. Either there were actually fewer ACE’s in the past (people suffered less adverse family conditions and traumas); or, more intriguing, that memory itself changes with age, or rather the feeling component of it changes (it doesn’t feel as traumatic). If this is true then it would go with our common experience that around the age of 55 the rate of suicide drops substantially, and in general that people become more accepting of themselves.
Finally, I must again mention to Jack that this knowledge didn’t become available in 1970 but much earlier. Although part of it was there from Freud’s beginning it was again meaningfully researched and written about after WW2, with its evacuation of British children from the cities to the countryside and the effects of the separation from parents. After the war there were also many refugees, homeless and orphaned children. Several British practitioners wrote about it, even extensively, notably Donald Winnicott and John Bowlby. Bowlby was also commissioned by the World Health Organization to study the subject and wrote an important report in 1951 (it’s online) about the effects of deprivation.
On a personal note, Bowlby also wrote about the importance of mothers or other family members staying by the bedside of hospitalized children as much as possible, which was a novel, even groundbreaking, idea at the time. A big Primal feeling for me was my mother leaving me in the hospital as a child with eye injuries, after promising me that she will stay and sneaking out once I fell asleep.
Link in previous comment is broken so here it is again:
Click to access WHO_MONO_2_(part1).pdf
Daniel: I have several problems with this article, which I will innumerate below.
1) I agree that it was Frued in his genuius that coined the word “Unconcious” but sadly it was never defined or even stated how the unconscious came about. We had to wait for Janov before that was made clear. An aside I read all the psychology books I could lay my hands on way, way before Janov and “The Primal Scream” came along … in-spite of it being suggested that I am ill informed. No problem for me.
2) It is one thing to inform someone about both child rearing and the effects of trauma on children and the fetus in utero. It is quite another to go back and relive EXACTLY WHAT THAT FELT LIKE, EXPRESS IT, AND HENCE GAIN INSIGHTS AN RESOLUTION. Janov designated it “Head tripping” I personally agree in total with that. He discovered another part of the brain to take into consideratio, (The Feeling Portion). THAT WAS ENTIRELY NEW.
3) The medical profession is remiss IMO for not considering Primal Theory … even if it wished to deny that ‘re-living’ was a means to rectifying any trauma. The Medical Profession is brilliant at devising research projects, but ignoring potential peronsal historical reasons for mal fuctions. It’s all more head tripping into biology, their version of ‘nerophysiology, and anatomy and physiology.
4) It is interesting that this study states unequivalcally … “there was no eveidence before 1985”. That is inaccurate. I consider; that to believe otherwise, they would have had to look at the way they make medical and psychological analysis. Janov states cearly, that it is the paitient that knows … not a person who studies ‘medicine’ for 10 years and then becomes the EXPERT. The expert of me IS ME. No other.
5) Not quite sure EXACTLY what you meant that the “knowledge was there” before 1970. Hubard did state that all that had happened to us remained in tack in our brains, but was unable to state why we had no access to it. Others made similar suggestions … not taking us very far IMO
6) All meaningfull progress in our human thinking is dependent upon all those who worked on such matters before. That’s a given … but that does not necessarily mean that one is able to make 100% use of it. I find it egregious that the work and discovery and formulation of Primal Theory has been overlooked … for reasons that I can only imagine are human psychology: ie EGO as coined by Freud.
7) ACE tells us little, or nothing as to how to mend that damage.
If the discovery of Primal Pain and the formulation of Primal Theory had been taken into considertaion, this very paper: ACE would been seen that, THAT has already been discovered, researched and developed. It is not the first time in the history of science that someone re-reading stuff from the past … realized it’s value and then set out to make their own.
Jack
” The expert of me IS ME”
Love that, Jack. Been nearly killed by medical experts over the last 3 years, prescribing ever larger doses of poison for something they can’t identify. Have decided I will die on my terms; rapidly weaning myself off the ‘medecines’. I am happy for that decision to drag me ‘screaming’ to the grave they threaten lies waiting if I forgo their expert advice…
Erron: Yeah!!!! I know exactly what you mean. I live with a medical technician who believes in it all. It’s a case of the them … lookinbg in …. whereas it’s me … feeling within. Simple and natural by my reckoning.
Jack
“men men men men manly men men men” funny that this song makes me tear up. I am not a man. I am nothing. Just an empty nothing that life keeps battering around. No dad no mom to have comforted me in my tribulations. Just my existence as a mean asshole to my poor wife, even though she has been veritably a big part of the battering of me that life has overjoyedly provided. I get the dirty dishes that are oft sent to men, troubles of Job, time and time again. Today we are waiting to hear from the vet on what will be how he will patch up the black cat who was already sick with fungus. And how much he will charge to do it. Cat was dealt a blow by the monster dog who put a hole in his chest the other day. Oh well it was the cat who attacked the dog. Hmmm. Kind of very tired of this. Working overtime for no reason now. Wife doesn’t understand that I get mean when I work 7 days a week. To pay for her bills. To pay for the pets she wanted, and I said we should not get. Not getting fun, not getting laid, not getting much of anything for my efforts. Feel like a fool posting on this stupid fucking blog. Thanks, Life, I know you could do worse to me, and I am sure you will, and hopefully once you have put me in the other place, that is the end of this shit.
Sounds like a tough unrewarding life Otto.
horrible. looking at the youtube opening song videos for 2 and 1/2 men. I never watched this show when it was running through it’s seasons. now i feel a loss of immense proportions. i could cry now but i am home with the mean old witch. sorry i am surely an asshole for saying that, i know. vet called and said it will cost less and the cat will probably not have to be anesthetized to close up the wound, which is good since his lungs have been messed up by the fungus. well i cross my fingers on this one. still already, had to use the american express card that they stupidly gave z and that i had been begging her to cut up. just to get in the door, you know what it costs to go to a vet these days. vet she did sound hopeful and good and full of energy.
stuff myself with wheat thins, peanut butter, and string beans instead. chat with cable co so i can watch manly men on my pc. listen to dog scratch itself with strange fleas that came home with me from the vet
> David,
> that is funny, I had the same expectation about the PI being a huge modern hospital like building, with many video cameras ready to record it all, pre and post cure, and there would be a big staff to take blood samples and pressure etc.
> at first I felt I had fallen into a sort of trap, specially when I whispered a question to the first patient I met about how she felt after having started her therapy, if she felt glad she came . she misunderstood me and said no, which briefly gave me a bit of a shock until she cleared up she had misheard my question, and said she was very pleased she had come to therapy.
> although as most people i had expected to waltz through therapy in four weeks or so, once in my first private sessions I did not have a clue anymore as to what was meant when i was asked what I felt. the question made no sense to me whatsoever, haha, while i had expected my screams would burst out immediately upon entering therapy..
> but luckily during my first weeks some breakthrough did occur which reassured me it all was very very meaningful and real.
> what you said about the lack of focus on how to help the people after they had had their ‘ace’ during childhood, that is why I feel that some primal input would be so much in place there, and probably welcome to some degree as well.
> and certainly useful, if only to give some more direction and a possible option for those interested.
> after reading some science fiction book,I actually had a dream about this, as in inhabitants of different planets finding each other and joining forces and enriching each others lives.
>
> maybe I am naive or idealistic too, but rather like that than the other way around.
> too many overly protective of their own approach subdivisions in the psychological field actually to my perception.
> too much fear somehow, while I feel primal theory has enough solid ground by now to withstand criticism and to prove its use in practice, even if only as an extra into a larger setting it is so very worthwhile as its ideas are real enough to value themselves when put into practice.
> I know I am no expert but it seems an important time now as to expand or not, and I would deeply regret it if it would again disappear into oblivian in a few decades from now.
> wish I could witness a strong boost during the next part of my life, hm, well, and if not, of course it would not change anything for me personally in the long run, but I would regret it still, as mankind seems truely sick in too many ways and is starting to be a problem for the planet itself, imho.
> not much I can do but witness and have my opinions and learn and say what I can say about it..
> M
Margaret: This whole question of why and where the future of Primal Therapy is going; has been something I have thought a great deal about. I sort of feel I know why … but it’s quite difficult to explain without going into a long discussion.
I do feel Arthur Janov is doing his best for both his legacy and for the whole Primal notion … but I am not impressed with either the neurological branch of the medical profession nor with current cognitive or behavioral therapies. It is for that reason I wrote my two books. One, a do-it-yourself feeling therapy (not Primal Therapy). Doing MY bit … without any success.
I do see the reasons … not that, that makes much difference. I put it down to human kind having lost it’s way, and pessimistically feeling that we as a species are doomed … perhaps all life on this planet … and sooner than I feel is realized. It’s a sad sad story.
Meantime, the one consolation for me is I have found most of my abilities to feel. It’s an ongoing process, for me least-ways. It is just that I reckon is the reason it has fallen by the wayside, except for those few of us that were suffering enough to give it a shot. But … I ramble on.
I just wish there was someone that would tell me where I go wrong.
Jack
Some people have tried to tell you (especially me I feel) but don’t especially get a good ‘hearing’ or any hearing at all imo…………….oh well you can’t have it both ways even if you try mighty hard. So keep ‘wishing’ someone would tell you and as soon as they do BAM! quote them the “Book” Janov’s that is and your own also of course. So the THEORY is ‘tell me I am an open person’ and the PRACTICE is ‘go away I know everything it has all been discoverd it is not only the greatest dlscovery ever made it is even the greatest discovery mankind ever WILL make’ will that kind of foreclosing on the future itself I doubt you REALLY wish to be told anything much.
Of course you are not alone in this Janov himself at least among any writers I know of represents one of the largest ‘gaps’ between THEORY and PRACTICE. That’s a deep problem and largely does account and explain his non acceptance in the broad sense in society. I agree there is a further problem in that ‘society’ itself is deaf and blind to a lot of truths it wishes to ignore or evade. So now we have a compounded problem…………it is any wonder it goes nowhere? But a good START would be to clean up our own house so to speak and THEN see, I am sure it would not be such smooth sailing but with a leaky boat to start with the sailing for sure will not go well. And it hasn’t and isn’t.
I like to think I know something about ‘society’ not being ready to hear or see what it does not want to. I have the scars and the ‘bans’ to prove it. And this was mostly about something in the historical record something that ‘happened’ over 70 years ago. If someone was to say for example the guillotine was not actually used during the French Revolution or on another hand it was used to kill millions………….isn’t that a ‘detail of history’ why cannot anything be treated the same way………..and be investigated and talked about in a ‘normal’ way. The fact that it cannot and isn’t should really tell all us all we need to know.
Voltaire said “To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Patrick: quote:- “Voltaire said “To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”” I might suggest that for most of us humans the ones that ruled over us where first mommy and daddy … sadly, most have forgotten about all those dreadful moments.
Danny Wilson (not Arthur Janov) first woke up to that moment. AND he screamed it out in no uncertain terms. You too were taken somewhere on reading those very same words AND decided to come all the way from Brixton and plonk down the money.
Is this you’re fundamental Truth????? Jack
“I might suggest that for most of us humans the ones that ruled over us where first mommy and daddy”
… brilliant slashing down of intellectualism to its root feeling Jack, don’t always agree with you but liked this 🙂
quote:- “and reduce it all down to the ‘animal level’ so all you are left with is materialism and money It does not seem to have ‘solved’ anything pretty much actually just moving all the decline of human and all life……….” Interesting !!!!!!!! When I suggested the abolition of money you were one of the first to go into one of you tirades and without more than the usual two seconds that you seemingly think about anything (and feel even less) you knocked that one as hard as you could.
Seemingly you are not able (like Trump, whom you’ve suggested you’d support) keep on with ideas that don’t go down well with this crowd BUT seemingly can’t BACK OFF. Yet hope others will.
Ah well !!!! Jack
Well, there is definitely hate and reductionism in it coming from you.
Patrick: If you are, or have been trying to tell me where I go wrong in the promotion of my ideas and sales of my books that express those ideas, then I have completely missed it. I thought (wrongly perhaps) that you were trying to tell me about my character flaws, but in so doing I felt you were showing some deep anger, perhaps bitterness towards me. I grant that I have lots of character flaws and were made aware of them in the first place by my daddy. Then as time went on more people joined the fray. In those early days I strongly defended against them only to realize eventually (thanks to Arthur Janov and his books) “defending” myself in that manner was definitely unhealthy. Since I wished to become more healthy, certainly emotionally, I took great note of it all, and the greatest one of all is my Jimbo that makes no ‘bones’ of telling me. I try hard not to ‘defend’ against that, or worse to retaliate. In the end that does not serve me (and I am in this life for me, selfish, however that may sound).
Back to my point of asking for any input from anyone that can give me usable information on how I might be able to contribute … through my books and my thinking. However deluded I might be in that endeavor. I did not find in your comments, nor do I recollect seeing it in any of your previous comments, to and about me. But who knows!!!!! I am no salesman so I usually finish up giving copies of my book away for free. Even so, none seem to take off. Often others outside myself can see better where I go wrong … and that is what I am actually asking for.
Jack
Hi Jack. I think what any of us can do is make life around us better for ourselves and family. We become more tolerant and giving, so in a small way we are changing things around us. It is a tall order to write the perfect book to inspire people to change their lives by reliving the most terrible feelings of abandonment or hatred or whatever harmed us. Even Janov cannot persuade very many to listen to his solution.
I did read your book some time ago and I believe the advice of letting yourself feel when a feeling is on the rise instead of pushing it down is a good thing. Like watching a crying child do what is natural, we grown-ups have learned to stifle it in public and sometimes in private too.
A book you might like to read on Kindle Amazon is Gilbert Bates’ “Love, Sex and Mental Health: How the Brain Works.” He is a former patient and trainee from the P. Center. It is a personal account of is therapy.
Have a nice Sunday
S
Sylvia: thanks for that, I will try to pick up that book and read it. AND yes I agree completely with what you say. So far, my Sunday is working out well … clear blue skies and sunshine. Just what I like. Hope too your Sundays, and all your days work out well for you.
Jack
I will just say that i am volcanically pissed at my wife and leave it at that. I cannot stand living with a feeble, moronic, insane person much longer. Sure, if i hadn’t had this in my childhood, I would not be so pissed now. But i did have it, and it is hard to set it aside now. I am afraid to even leave the house now, thinking that she is going to let the monster dog and wounded cat get into in again. At least i was able to tell her that i was incredibly angry without screaming at her again.
I would like to email this to my son in Ohio, but I always defer on saying much at all to my kids, because the insane, manipulative beings inside of my head should only be let out during therapy. “Thanks for your help (over the phone) with the cat situation at the vet.
Anyway, you must keep in mind that Tara can never be in the same house as children, so if you find a girl that you like, I would advise you that this girl have neither pets or kids.
Also, if you are looking for a house in Ohio at some point, I would advise a really tall 10 foot fence in the back yard. Probably hard to find there.
Possibly a lot that includes a main house, and also a granny house for Z.
Because Tara will be miserable being alone all day, after having been with Z all day for her entire life, and I am not sure that having a dog-walker or dog-sitter would be feasible because of Tara’s biting issues.
Just my thoughts, just remember that my advice is usually bad, and I am sure you can think more clearly about this issue than I can.
Hope you can get the seat issue ironed out. Incredible that they would want bad publicity for their dealership.”
I can’t believe how incredibly horrible i feel. This cat/dog think has really pushed me into a deep depression and there is no outlet for the feeling.
I was looking at that adverse childhood experience again and saw that one question says: “Was a biological parent ever lost to you through divorce, abandonment, or other reason?” So, “”other reason”, does cover death of a parent or adoption on this version of the survey I saw.
What is so startling is how clear cut the results are. The graphs all go steadily up showing the increased frequencies of bad consequences associated with increasing adverse childhood experiences, of any combination.
The results are just so impressive and Important.
To me, this does show what Dr. Janov has said over many years, but never was
really able to probe himself. I see that the World Health Organization has an international ACE questionnaire. http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/activities/adverse_childhood_experiences/en/
Phil
Phil: I have a problem with the line you wrote:- “To me, this does show what Dr. Janov has said over many years, but never was really able to probe himself. ”
I am not quite sure what exactly you mean by:- “but never was really able to probe himself. ”
From my readings of Janov I cannot agree with that statement. Janov has stated several times that he continues to have Primals. Which, to me does mean that he does probes into himself.
Maybe I misunderstood the context in which you made that statement. I stand to be corrected.
Jack
Jack,
There was a typo in what I wrote. I meant to say “prove” not “probe. I hit the letter b instead of v. With that substitution I hope what I wrote makes more sense..
Phil
Phil: that made total sense and I now see what you meant. I am pleased about that.
On the matter of ‘proving’ … that’s a difficult one. My feeling is the best one can do is be persuasive enough. I think “proving” should be left to geometric postulations. Something It turned out I was good at … for a time. Something I think courts of law are terrible at … “proving” that is.
Jack
I was talking here about my desire to make a job or career change and have identified that as a problem because of the conditions where I work, and how that feels. But I’ve been feeling zero energy to actually do something about it.. That is a major part of the problem, as with no energy, nothing can happen. It’s a combination of things which make it difficult to overcome, including a large old feeling. “I can’t do it”, “Look at me! Talk to me! Pay attention to me!” Nothing at all coming from my mother.
Part of why I don’t like my current job has to do with old feelings too. I don’t feel important or appreciated enough; but I can very easily feel that way, which can lead to poor decisions and behavior.
I will have to try to tolerate the situation, I’m afraid, and put what energy I have into other things.
Phil
> Otto,
> I can imagine it must be exhausting to live with the constant concern about one of the dogs being able to hurt another pet severely.
> I’d feel awful as well if a cat of mine was bittten by a dog, which was not yours to start with if I get it right..
> still you are doing what you can by the sound of it.
> M
i should say something meaningful, but i am too exhausted from living with the constant concern about one of the dogs being able to hurt another pet severely. i am too exhausted from being me. Of course, it is always about me, isn ‘t it. me me me. hope you doing well and all yours.
Hang in there Otto. Here’s a song for you if it turns out okay. Judy Collins, Someday soon.
S
Thanks Sylvia. i like Judy Collins and I guess this is supposed to be a happy song but it strikes me otherwise. Not that I am in any kind of specific pain at the moment, just anticipating and dreading the someday soon. I need to say nothing more because the other inevitable 100 shoes are about to drop. I can feel it in my bones. ha.
Hi Otto. I think it is a bittersweet song. Sort of a separation from family where she is going to go off with her boyfriend despite her dad’s wishes. My friend in high school and I use to listen to her J. Collins albums as we sat on the floor wondering about what rodeo cowboys would be in our own future.
If you see a 100 shoes about to drop, get out of the way.
S
woke up with this song in my head. elvis. (Now and Then There’s) A Fool Such as I. deeply sad cry. dont know why. help mommy
probably end of marriage or life or something. not much to do about it buy cry. hurts
I’m relieved you are able to cry it.
thanks larry. sylvia your jc song is starting to haunt me. those shoes are hiding, waiting for me to find a little joy first, before they fall.
cried a lot today, and caught by surprise with cry yesterday. thought i was going dry there. not sure if it helps. too much pain and so little time left.
Always about loss. Mom. Seeing her face a little more clearly. Seeing the bedroom where she held me close for the first 10 months a little more clearly. Getting near to the feeling of psychosis from being totally abandoned in the bassinette when she went away. The cat and dogs I lost the past year. “Just someone I use to know.” “now and then theres’ a fool such as I” “waymore’s blues” .Those country people really know how to sing about loss. Aunt. e and uncle e, their faces, Hollywood. Loss loss loss. Losing the wife, either now or at the end. Losing my life, it’s almost over. Losing the people I saw at the retreat. Feel a little more human now. So what, it’s pretty much a waiting game for those frigging shoes to fall. Always good to see bb’s smiling face and hear his cheery voice.
yeah, i know bb. we come here once a week or something, be ourselves, then go home and live our lives. you are just too beautiful, mister.
ah crap. also remembering the past 8 years back here in L.A. the 2 kids living with us for some time before the phd kid went north to school, and the other kid off to do his thing, start a family. now phd kid gone again to ohio. i pretty much insulate myself from these losses, what else can i do.my cousin dead. rambling on.
Hey Otto,
Good to read you here and see your clarity – even though it is so hard for you to live day in and out…
Would love another day at the Retreat with all the people who were so supportive, caring and fun!
ox L
Oops that was so not Barry M but me! Another good thing to see him posting here!
that’s right. barry is perhaps a channeler of popular music, which most people probably love, and i hope i am not embarrassing him or overstepping my bounds by saying that. if so, i apologize profusely.
in a different arena, i am doing horribly in getting things done that absolutely have to get done. mommy not here to help me. wahhhhh.
Patrick’s recent comment in which he mentioned Jews hating Christ and Christianity was apparently deleted for breaking the blog Hateful Conduct rules, but since you all received it in your mailboxes I’d like to make a correction which is, as you may have already guessed, diametrically opposed to Patrick’s ideas.
In a way I really wish we were as powerful as Patrick and others who hate us believe us so fervently to be. Perhaps then we would have fared better in history. But the fact remains that since 70 A.D and until the creation of Israel just barely 70 years ago Jews were utterly at the mercy of their non-Jewish communities, rulers, empires, and later countries.
Furthermore, contrary to the idea Patrick was trying to advance, of the three monotheistic religions Judaism is the most pacifistic. We never had our Crusades and Jihads. We never declared others to be heretics or persecuted apostates. Nor had we missionary ambitions. To the contrary, Judaism makes it rather difficult for people from other religions to join it. It will eventually welcome them with open arms but the process is arduous and time consuming.
Regarding hate for Jesus – this is the ultimate and ironic projection. Jesus is never mentioned – not once – in Jewish religious texts and teachings, and Judaism has no theological problem whatsoever with the existence of Christianity, just as it doesn’t have such a problem with the existence of any other religion. But, Christianity has a huge and enduring theological problem with Judaism: Judaism, being the first but then forsaken testament, should have according to Christian principles ceased to exist as a religion, and Jews should have all promptly converted to Christianity which now holds the new covenant with God.
That didn’t happen. Judaism continued to be just as before, unperturbed by the new Christian theological developments. Its mere continued existence became an affront to Christianity, a thorn in its flesh. And boy how they tried to convert us, at times with violently inquisitional vengeance.
And of course for centuries we were and at times still are considered to be ‘Christ Killers’. Generations of Christians were weaned on lessons and gospels given at churches and schools that pointed an accusing finger at Jews as those who killed the son of God, and as such are not only a despicable and untrustworthy lot but also, as some suggested, are capable of killing young innocent Christians and may have already done so in rituals and secret worships.
Those theological problems, these accusations and fears, which morphed into various secular, social, racial, economical and national forms of anti-semitism, were as the American historian Raul Hilberg shows, historically dealt with and evolved through three stages:
1) You can’t live among us as Jews (i.e Conversion); then
2) You can’t live among us (i.e Expulsion); and finally
3) You can’t live (i.e Exrermination).
Daniel: an interesting perspective from a Jewish perspective. My take on the religion, being brouht up to be a devout Christian. It was something is something I ditched at the age of 19 while I was in the conscripted British army. Prior to that I was an avid Christian and went to church every Sunday and then Sunday school, and even preached in the pulpit on one occasion. My mother was an avid Christian up until her death believing that she would be on the left hand side of God and Jesus would be on the right hand side. I loved my mother, but that was the utmost in conceit on her part, BUT it did mean she had no fear of death and was willing to go when the time came near. In the last letter to me she stated that she’d just had another heart attack but didn’t “kick the bucket this time” Two day later she died of an aneurysm in her own bed.
I don’t think she knew much about Judaism, but she always insisted that Jesus was a Jew. I have in the past related my experience form early childhood what the word “Jew” and later my experience and my attitude in my youth and later my relationship with several Jews. One I worked for I did not like and thought he was nasty in his dealing with his growers, yet another was my mentor in my early twenties and to this very day I have never met a more brilliant mind. I don’t for one minute think he was devout and I know several Jews that claim to be secular. My take is: that eventually “religion as a ‘belief system’ will die out. I would like to hope that Janov started that process. One other factor, to beat my “old drum” is that money and all means of exchange, including barter is, the greatest inhibition to and for mankind to overcome his neurosis.
Perhaps my greatest ‘sin’ took place at a retreat where I think it was Vivian who took to going on about Judaism and I butted in stating “Qh! stop being Jewish … start being human” ( slight pause then added) “Stop being British … start being Human” The room went deadly silent then continued on anothe line of discussion.
I personally do not wish to identify with any ethnic group or any other belief system. I am just me for all my faults and foibles.
Patrick it seems is all about being Irish. Not quute sure what exactly all that means.
Jack
P.S. There are many groups and ethnicities that have suffered the most awful discrimination and abuse. As I know of from my childhood and youth growing up gay.
J
Thanks Jack for your comment. If I understand you correctly you think that neurosis is part of being a human being in our societal order. I pretty much agree with that. However, your solution of dismantling some our society’s greatest tools for “being” together (religion, money) is, I’m afraid, not only impractical but if done on a major scale might eventually end up in mayhem.
Daniel: I’ll use your word “mayhem” We are already living with mayhem all around us. I would rather use the word chaos since that has a less emational context. Nature is chaotic, so is the traffic and politics and much more. I have been thinking about all this for many many years going back to my early twenties after attending a series of lectures in London that threw my then currnet thinking array.
Basically, these were some of the radical thinkers, I considered, of the time, and was perhaps the forerunner to being so enthralled after just reading the introduction to “The Primal Scream” We have lived with chaos for perhaps more than 30 millennium where I contend ‘neurosis first began (perhaps we will never know when and how it all began) Before that time I contend that neither neurosis, money nor religion existed. It was the advert of neurosis that got mankind to creating it all … thinking: disconnected from feelings,.
All other creatures live with nature EXCEPT us humans, and we have, since becoming neurotic, first put it down to various Gods (creating totem poles and the like, in their name) and forces outside ourselves, disconnected from our early feelings. Then Abraham came along and said it was all just one God, still maintaining the concept of an outside force, After that we got Saul of Taurus who jumped on some word of mouth story by the gospel maker Mark, that got embellished by Mathew Luke and later John . Some of the cultures that did not readily succumb to either notion, then came up with another. Mohamed devised another means to EXPLAIN it all and thence we had Islam. All these religious factors were merely explanation of that, that was inexplicable; so … we set out to compete, even fight one another for our beliefs. The latter one was Buddha who sat for ‘god knows how long’ under a lotus tree trying to figure out what was amiss with us humans. Then got a whole other set of followers.
All this just adds to the chaos … and your word “mayhem”. Somehow we seem not to ‘get it’ It is all of our own neurotic creation.
One speck of hope arrived when an American psychologist, suddenly by shear accident created a situation that cause some guy to go screaming his head off, which accordingly “shattered the walls of that psychologists office” His genius was in not jumping to an immediate conclusion, like most of us are prone to do, but sat with it even after others, went into thier own “reliving”. Culture is an artificial creation separating us all. It doesn’t have to be … we (humans) make it a so.
And we each of us, at least on this blog, know the rest.
Jack
Daniel – Please know that we are all sickened and repulsed by Patrick’s delusions. You and Gretchen and Barry are not alone. I appreciate the additional history and know I can’t even imagine what it would be like to have such untrue, horrendous things said about me/my family/religion/culture.
It does need to be addressed & deleted – but we too can look at the source and know full well – Patrick is a hateful, rage filled mentally ill person.
L
Thanks L. It feels good to know that.
Daniel,
I did not receive Patrick’s comments in my mailbox as I do not subscribe to the blog, and they were removed before I read that particular section. It seems clear that they were pretty bad if Gretchen deemed it necessary to remove them. I do not condone prejudicial comments, am repulsed by them and never have had the impetus to make such comments.
I really need to say I took exception to you quip about “ISIS standing for “International Society of Irish Schmucks” in one of you reactions to Patrick, I too am Irish and felt offended by that comment.
It’s a pity you did not just focus on the person making the comment, not his nationality.
I had been holding back on that for a while, but now felt he need to say something.
Donal
I apologize for that Donal. My argument with Patrick who kept saying ISIS is somehow Jewish/Israeli got the better of me and I should not have said that. Not only is it obviously wrong it’s also offensive.
Daniel,
I appreciate your response and apology. I do realize that you made the comment under some duress: obviously much worse things were being said which affected you personally and I think it’s accurate to say you felt attacked during that interaction (which is very understandable).
I just needed to get it off my chest, which I now have, so I think I can can leave it behind. No harm done.
Thanks for responding,
Donal
I am tired of everything and there is nothing i can do with it. needy frigging cat with his $2k stitches. dog with fungus progressing across its belly. monster dog waiting for wife or me to make next mistake and bite the hell out of other dog or cat again. wife who seems to be unable to do much of anything except spend money thoughtlessly.. always the money problem. irs wants its money first. f this shit. nothing stops this relentless living death. it never ends. i feel something by crying and it just opens up more pain, and the resulting depression from not feeling enough of it. if i were a normal person going to group every week, i could feel this old shit and be done with it in 10 years. hah. patrick please get some help. everyone here thinks you need it.
i cant move. i cant do anything about this dog’s fungus. i am trapped by moneylessness. i can see the old feeling,being in a bassinette with no stimulation, having enough of a brain to imagine a future of a mom coming in 2 seconds to address my needs, but that future never comes, but i can hang onto that future hope anyways, hope of something good happening, i am trapped by my wife, she has no solutions that i can use, her solution is for her to get what she needs at every moment, i have no energy to move, this feeling just drags me into a hole that i cannot get out of. i am 6 months late on filing my taxes, i have time today to do jt, i dont want to do a damn thing about it. i want to cram stuff down my throat and i feel powerless to even do that.
i cant even listen to music. she will come in at some point needing something. ‘want to do anything today?” sure i would like to solve all the problems you have created in my life, but i feel like a blob. i should start taking testosterone and risk cancer to get out of this crap. i have no energy to open the bottle of testosterone, and no money to replace that bottle once i have used it up. no friggin hope whatsoever. damn
have to give the cat its medicine or it will die. move. move move. this is why i used to drink. that kind of medicine works very quickly. unfortunately the end results of drinking were not good.
> Otto,
> is there any medical indication why you should take extra testosterone?
> or was that a joke?
>
> Jack,
> I think it is an illusion we could go without money or even without any form of exchange.
> even primates have a sense of reciprocity and fairness, we seem to have some kind of adaptation as a group animal to detect cheaters who try to take advantage most of the time, and discard them from our group of friends .
> if that would not be the case, soon the ‘takers’ would take over and spread their genes and any kind of group cohesion would be impossible.
> so it is a selfregulating system, a certain amount of takers can get away with it, but their number has a limit.
> the rest of us behaves in a reciprocal kind of way, you scratch my back and at some point i will scratch yours, or vice versa. that can happen in so many different forms.
> this is just my personal guess, but I would be inclined to think maybe overpopulation or our groups getting too large, was the start of our species getting crazier.
> often small communities with a natural way of living still have a lot of love and respect for their little ones, who are all treated well by all the tribe members.
> of course this is just a hypothesis, our extra large brain probably also makes some kind of difference in the way we deal with our emotions, but well, I don’t know if animals are that different really, some of them seem to get pretty neurotic as well when they are treated badly.
>
> Otto, do you and your wife ever really talk, and listen to each other?
> you both seem to hurt about the relationship not getting better, I wish you guys could work it out and feel happier, just occasionally at least.
> you do seem to be opening up more and more at a fast rate, getting easier access to your feelings all the time, so hang in there and keep writing, hope you can find some solution for that difficult dog so it won’t be a continuous threat anymore for the other pets.
> just heard an interesting health discovery on the news.
> when we have dinner later than 7 pm, our heart has to work heavily overnight, and our blood pressure cannot drop as it is supposed to during the night, doubling the risk of stroke or heart attacks.
> it does make sense, a couple of years ago I did start spontaneously to stop eating after 7 or 8 in the evening, as it did not feel comfortable and interfered with my sleep somehow, and I must say it feels a lot better .
> if anything, a salad or low fat yoghurt would not put too much strain on the system said the doctor on tv, and well, they had plenty of research proof for their findings too.
> M
Margaret: I quote you here:- ” I think it is an illusion we could go without money or even without any form of exchange. even primates have a sense of reciprocity and fairness, we seem to have some kind of adaptation as a group animal to detect cheaters who try to take advantage most of the time, and discard them from our group of friends . if that would not be the case, soon the ‘takers’ would take over and spread their genes and any kind of group cohesion would be impossible.” From whence does ALL this wisdom you have just stated; come from?????
I am no more sure of your feeling on this matter than I feel you have of mine. I have spent years thinking this notion through and have spent the same number of years confronting people that give no more than two seconds to dismiss my notion. History is replete with people that know it, from those mere 2 seconds, then stating the other person’s delusion, with their answer. Galileo, Copernicus, even Einstein, and certain today, thousands that know better than Artur Janov.
It is a reflection on the very neurosis that we, on this blog, are aware of. If it is that you feel that I am just another ‘crack pot’ that flouts my ideas willy-nilly in a similar manner as I feel Patrick does, that is all well and good from my perspective. The United States and it’s legislators dismissed the work of Karl Marks with no more than it was a flawed idea … little realizing (and certainly not considering), that they maybe the ones with the flawed Idea. He, Marx, spent years thinking it all through
I feel for myself that I have to be very careful making statements unless I have taken the trouble to first attempt to get ‘into the shoes’ of the other person, only then to look inward unto myself and see where all this stems from within me. It’s a task I feel I did my homework on … but hey hoo … that does not mean that I can convince others, though I sure have the compulsion to try.
Jack
Jack,
I would point out that years thinking about something, in this case the elimination of money and bartering, doesn’t make it a good or correct.
Have you considered the possibilty of having been wrong for many years?
Phil
Jack,
Sorry, that was me, not Margaret. I have re-posted my comment below.
I would point out that years thinking about something, in this case the elimination of money and bartering, doesn’t make it a good or correct idea. Marx’s ideas have never seemed to work
out in practice. They are good only in theory. Our economic systems in place have evolved
more or less organically, I think. They are flawed and need to be regulated and adjusted but probably can’t be replaced by a system never actually workable in practice.
Have you considered the possibility of having been wrong for many years?
Phil
Phil: Yes, I often think that I could well be wrong. However, the ‘NATURE’ of right and or wrong are value Judgement. Nothing is set in stone in terms of thinking. EVEN though most of us NEVER contemplate ourselves to be wrong. If we can CREATE an exchange system … then we could easily abolish it … IF we can get outside the box!!! Talking of thinking outside the box is something Gretchen brought up at one retreats. I felt I got out of my box, after giving it great thought, only to realize I found myself in yet a larger box, After attempting to climb out of that box, I then found myself in yet an even larger one … and on and on ad infinitum. Even the act of “believing” is nothing more than a verb … something we do, but mostly thinking that believing, is to be closer to being right rather than wrong. Yet!!!! believing actually connotes that “we do not know”. If we knew, then we’d say “I know” and not “I believe”.
Of course, time spent thinking does not “PROVE” anything. The way I have described all this before is to ‘CONJECTURE’ all the permutations I can think of. I call it “making a conceptual leap”. My main problem with most that dismiss my notion is; that I am acutely aware that they have given little or no real DEEP thought, from those that dismiss it. It an ‘off the top of the head’ re-action IMO
My main argument against ‘the means of exchange’ is that it Margaret and/or Phil: Yes, I often think that I could well be wrong. However, the ‘NATURE’ of right and or wrong are value Judgements. Nothing is set in stone in terms of thinking. EVEN though most of us NEVER contemplate ourselves being wrong. If we can CREATE an exchange system … then we could easily abolish it … IF we can get outside the box!!! Talking of thinking ouside the box is something Gretchen brought up at one retreats. I felt I got out of my box, after giving it great thought, only to realize I found myself in yet a larger box, After atempting to climb out of that box, I then found myself in yet an even larger one … and on and on ad infinitum. Even the act of “believing” is nothing more than a verb … something we do, but mostly thinking that believing, to be closer to being right rather than wrong. Yet!!!! believing actually conotes that “we do not know”. If we knew, then we’d say “I know” and not “I beleive”.
Of course, time spent thinking does not “PROVE” anything. The way I have described all this before is to ‘CONJECTURE’ all the permutations I can think of. I call it “making a conceptual leap”. My main problem with most that dismiss my notion is; that I am acutely aware that they have given little or no real DEEP thought, to what I am saying It an ‘off the top of the head’ re-action IMO
My main argument against ‘the means of exchange’ is that it convolutes, and complicates the living of life … ie. we, from henceforth need to be governed lest the other guy will take our life, or property, (to make the rules setting it in stone), then a policing system to maintain the governors rulings, then a military to help the police out, if the protesters become too overwhelming, then prison to keep the bad guys at bay without really knowing who the bad guys are; and on and on and on ad infinitum. Now we need people to spend four years of collage studying those very rules to argue it all out in courts of law. Therein is the craziness of the system (that ironically, most admit to).
Jack
Sorry all: I messed up that reply by repeating things I thought I’d deleted. I’ll send it again if it does not make sense.
Jack
Phil: Yes, I often think that I could well be wrong. However, the ‘NATURE’ of right and or wrong are value Judgements. Nothing is set in stone in terms of thinking. EVEN though most of us NEVER contemplate ourselves being wrong. If we can CREATE an exchange system … then we could easily abolish it … IF we can get outside the box!!! Talking of thinking outside the box is something Gretchen brought up at one retreats. I felt I got out of my box, after giving it great thought, only to realize I found myself in yet a larger box, After attempting to climb out of that box, I then found myself in yet an even larger one … and on and on ad infinitum. Even the act of “believing” is nothing more than a verb … something we do, but mostly thinking that believing, to be closer to being right rather than wrong. Yet !!!! believing actually connotes that “we do not know”. If we knew, then we’d say “I know” and not “I believe”.
Of course, time spent thinking does not “PROVE” anything. The way I have described all this before is to ‘CONJECTURE’ all the permutations I can think of. I call it “making a conceptual leap”. My main problem with most that dismiss my notion is; that I am acutely aware that they have given little or no real DEEP thought, from those that dismiss it. It an ‘off the top of the head’ re-action IMO
My main argument against ‘the means of exchange’ is that it convolutes and complicate the living of life … ie. we, from henceforth need to be governed lest the other guy will take our life, or property, (to make the rules setting it in stone), a policing system to maintain the governors rulings, a military to help the police out, if the protesters become too overwhelming, then prison to keep the bad guys at bay without really knowing who the bad guys are; and on and on and on ad infinitum. Now we need people to spend four years of collage studying those very rules to argue it all out in courts of law. Therein is the craziness of the system (that ironically most admit to).
Jack
Jack,
I’m glad to read a further explanation of your thoughts on this.
This website: https://mises.org/library/barter-prehistoric-times
says that
“the history of primitive peoples shows that the desire to trade and barter is a universal human characteristic”.
And yet certain primitive people showed no interest in bartering. Some Polynesian tribes, for example, are mentioned.
I also read that the use of money didn’t necessarily evolve from bartering. All interesting points but I wonder if any of it has to do with neurosis and/or the craziness of modern societies, and how children are raised.
Phil
Phil: The question arises:- what period of time in the evolution of mankind are these anthropologists talking about???? Accordingly, we evolved over a period of 100 millennium. If we are merely talking about the last 3 or even the last 30; that leaves a huge gap of 70. Of course, that is if the study of anthropology is more or less correct … always a possibility to be contested.
There is IMO a simpler way to look at all this. IF we humans at whatever point in our evolution we came up with “money” as a means of control, or “governments as a means of control (using money as that means) and the laws, those governing us created (for no better reason than to ‘set in stone” those laws … rules) … who is to decide who is capable of having enough wisdom to set those rules???????
As I see it (and some others namely Jean Pierre Proudhon, Engels Marx et al). I was far from the first to contemplate abolishing that that we had created for no better reason than CONTROL. Who’s controlling whom … and for reason?????? That one NEVER get debated. It is the very neurotic reasoning that caused parents to control the their babies, and hence set up this insidious disease, now specified by Art Janov. We just go on, to perpetuate this insidious disease. The question is:- How can we reverse this process … without having to create a million Gretchens or ever two million Arthur Janovs. My take is; it’s never going to happen. If you have a better idea than mine; I’m all ears.
Lastly: Churchill, in all his assumed wisdom stated that:- “Democracy was a very imperfect (civil) system, but it’s the best we have”. IF it’s that imperfect how about someone, or collectively, we think up a more perfect one???? My take (not claiming it to have any wisdom) is to make us all sovereign unto ourselves, AND my gut feeling is that money is the greatest inhibitor to achieving that end. You Phil, for whatever your reasoning set up rules (called “Guide lines”) to control “The Primal Support Group”. Seeming that group needs CONTROLLING !!!!!!!! So !!!! who are the bad guys?????
How about getting rid of ALL FORMS OF CONTROL? Yeah! I am fully aware that we neurotics feel the need to control the ‘other’ guy … never ourselves … we’d NEVER do anything unethical … OR WOULD WE ?????????
Jack
Jack,
What I also saw is that it was the division of labor which led to the use of money as a medium of exchange. But it’s not so much money which is controlling but taxes. You probably can’t farm some land and live self sufficiently without the use of money because of taxes. Money allows people to have things they otherwise wouldn’t because it’s an efficient and effective medium of exchange.
You say that: “However, the ‘NATURE’ of right and or wrong are value Judgement.”
In that case why bothering arguing your case about the abolishment of money,
as that idea might always be right or wrong?
I think many things have and can be proven right or wrong and are not just value judgments. The functioning of all our technology is based on scientific discoveries
on the way nature works. Our technology, for example works, because those discoveries were right.
Phil
Phil: I was hoping that you would have given me your idea as to how we might rid ourselves of “neurosis”, collectively that is. My original article to this current blog did suggest that we could overcome (cure) it. BUT then all the upcoming generations of children are still going to be scarred by this very same disease, unless there is some easy and collective way to rid us humans of it. It has been my quest, over all this time, that I have given great thought to some simple device that would automatically achieve that end.
The only real way would be for it to be tried somewhere. The next best thing would be for a critical mass of the people to contemplate what it might actually be like … BEFORE jumping to that clenched remark “it could never work” and thus an instant dismissal of the idea (notion). Getting anyone to step outside any such box is the real difficulty … yet no-one suggests an alternative, that I am aware of.
Since the original idea was not mine, but that of thinkers like Jean Pierre Proudhon, Engels, Marx and quite a few others, I was hoping that at least some Primal people having taken the conceptual leap into the Primal notion, would have been prepared to look into how we might achieve the “ending of neurosis”. My feeling is that unless we are able to achieve it then the human race is doomed … and faster than I feel is currently considered. I see the rise of Donald J. Trump as a case in point. Hopefully, he will never get into any position of power … but there is no telling … in this “land of the free”.
However, I have a feeling that this `pony ride’ of mine might be getting boring for many.
Jack
Jack,
The origins of neurosis are at the personal level, not the collective level, and I think this is something we learn through the therapy process. I became neurotic because of my parents and family situation, not because of money and the economy.
We can just do our best to raise our families and heal ourselves. I don’t think there is some massive intervention that will fix everything. Money isn’t going to be eliminated, so I don’t see much use with that idea. Would we go back to some primitive tribal lifestyle? I’m just not seeing it.
But the growing awareness of the power of childhood traumas is a good sign. I’m talking about that adverse childhood experience “ACE” study, for example.
It would be helpful if we could get leaders to enact more family friendly policies so that parents could spend more time with children, awareness about hospital procedures etc. What’s needed is a whole societal trend in that direction fueled by an deep understanding of what children really need. But to dedicate large amounts of energy towards activism is probably neurotic in itself.
Phil
Phil: I agree that first and foremost we deal with therapy upon ourselves from an individual context. That should not preclude ones ability to see it on a global scale. Sure enough, I am one of those people that is concerned with the effects of neurosis on others, BUT also how it affects us all with it’s effects surrounding us: wars, terrorism, murders, greed, destruction, however inadvertently, upon the children of the planet. and all the other needless destruction of the lives of others.
For perhaps my own neurotic reasons … I am concerned. I feel strongly that Arthur Janov is also; though I am no position to speak for him.
Jack
Phil, I like what you say here.. especially how we can just do our best to heal ourselves (first) and then our immediate people around us will benefit…
Jack,
For you this primal stuff is not simply a technique for helping you to overcome some problem in life, but the one true religion, with its one true prophet (assuming Janov has not yet been elevated to God status), and its endless quest for a pure neurosis-free existence. We will find ourselves in a promised land where there will be no money, no barter, and I assume no work that needs to be done.
It has all been portrayed so beautifully in this glorious spiritual,
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains there’s a land that’s fair and bright
Where the handouts grow on bushes and you sleep out every night
Where the boxcars are all empty and the sun shines every day
On the birds and the bees and the cigarette trees
Where the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains all the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth and the hens lay soft boiled eggs
The farmer’s trees are full of fruit and the barns are full of hay
Oh, I’m bound to go where there ain’t no snow
Where the rain don’t fall and the wind don’t blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains you never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol come a-trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats and the railroad bulls are blind
There’s a lake of stew and of whiskey too
You can paddle all around ’em in a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains the jails are made of tin
And you can walk right out again as soon as you are in
There ain’t no short handled shovels, no axes saws or picks
I’m a goin to stay where you sleep all day
Where they hung the jerk that invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
Tim: quote:- “For you this primal stuff is not simply a technique for helping you to overcome some problem in life, but the one true religion,”
It is good to note that there is an ex patient that KNOWS that I have made a religion out of my therapy. Since I am an avid atheist I doubt of myself, that I have made it a religion. Sure my own therapy is something I deal with on a daily basis, and will be ongoing for the rest of my life. I’m personally happy with what it gave me AND the living of my life … that I feel very good about. However, thanks for the information … I will give it some thought.
Jack
Jack,
What would you do if you suddenly and legitimately owned endless money? No more struggle. What would you do? How would your life change?
How would you feel?
not being a smartarse, thought about this myself often…
Erron
Erron: My Jimbo does the lottery at least on a weekly basis and when I say to him “Even if you were to win the Jack-pot, you would still have many of the same problems as you do now” His reply is:- “Just try me”. It’s hard to get my message across, when I have read different book to those that he (Jim) reads. His passion is for medical matters; mine is on another level (for the want of a better way to describe it) a more feeling-full and expressing those feeling appropriately. Of course, each of my statement might be more clear if I were to go into them.
Let me just say that some 40 years ago I read a book:- “The Seven Laws of Money” co-written by a very rich man that was host to a foundation and a tramp (naming himself ‘Jug and Candle’) I read it several times and lent the book to Patrick, who I suspect when he broke into my trailer same several years ago took the book back off my shelf when he found I was not home. Just my suspicion mind. I can not prove or even demonstate it.
So! should my Jimbo win the jack-pot on the lottery I feel that would be the beginning of a whole new set of problems between us, So! I sincerely hope it never happens … and tell him so.
Money NEVER solves problem, it merely create a whole new set of others, whilst perhaps eliminating some present ones. I would prefer to remain with the problems I know, than the new ones that I know not of.
When I lived in Ibiza I knew this very rich hippy guy who had a couple of million dollars. He was in the business of financing other less rich hippies that felt they needed money; to to drug runs. and told them how to avoid being caught. One day at his home he said to me:- “Jack; if I spend more than two weeks worrying about earning my money in any given year that is all the time I spend” I replied (with my smarty pants retort) “Yes David BUT you spend the other 50 weeks worried about how to spend it” He slapped my on the face, I then left his house.
Why I repeat the story is it encpsulates how I feel about ‘money’. Having it or being without it … each brings it’s own set of problems.
Jack
Tim, I notice by your email that you are in the moving business. Do you know Patrick? G.
I have known Patrick for over thirty years. For most of that time we have been very good friends.
What do you mean ‘most’ of the time? I guess when I get back we can take it outside lol……..
Sorry Tim, just a stupid remark. Playing into the ‘stage Irishman’ I suppose…………you know the one who does not know what he wants but IS prepared to fight for it………
You feel nothing, you’re a useless fuck and I never read your delusional posts to the end, having made that sad waste of time mistake early on..
Just take the bloody drugs they obviously want you to, and fade away from the real world, please?
Erron (just playing my own game of anger bullshit…)
You might have an ‘issue’ with drugs yourself, didn’t you mention you are something close to death’s door FROM taking drugs ‘legal’ ones I think. Me, I don’t take any, feel no need for any and actually quite enjoy exercising my mind in a way that is as close as possible to being ‘free’
Then of course in typical ‘primal coward’ style you kind of hint it’s a ‘feeling’ of your own. Which I would say you are correct about in this case. I love the ‘you feel nothing’ said like a true late ’60’s early ’70’s ‘cultist’. A cultist imbued with the ‘theory’ the theory that failed (most everyone)
Well at least my comment(s) are still there…………….maybe if I ‘time’ it when the ‘primal police force’ go to bed though I imagine the ADL never sleep, they could just as easily find some sayanasim here or anywhere to do their dirty work for them……..the work of censorship and trauma based mind control. Not so hard here the ‘trauma’ is already there so add the ‘mind control’ not so difficult and then you will have Daniel and Leslie and Error all singing lustily from the same hymn sheet
But I do wonder why don’t I FEEL ‘mentally ill’ if anything I feel mentally quite healthy and even getting better thought I do feel it in my body. My age I mean it catches up on all of us. But no pills for me I will leave that to Error himself and all the other ‘errors’ great and small, deliberate and incidental. Whatever.
lol you called me Error like all the pimply kids in my teens used to do to try to put me down. Says something…
And at least I’m weaning myself off the drugs, 2 months and they’re gone. No more taking advice from the medical profession. How will YOU ‘go clear’ lol? Oh, wait, you’re perfect. You don’t ‘feel mentally ill.’ Yeah, right…
> to start with I think we should not only look back a few then thousands of years, or even a hundred thousand, as that is only the last bit of evolving of our last version, homo sapiens. if we go back to homo erectus and homo habilis and the Neanderthal and some other variation, we are already speaking of a million years. if we go back a bit more, there are other ancestors, every time with a bit less brain content and gradually being less bipedal, using four limbs more often to move around, and then we talk about several millions of years.
> but it is surprising to look at what some of these species already were capable of. and they are all just a split off of other primate species, who all haave like all group species, specially primates and often other mammals as well, the notion of reciprocity, a notion of expecting to be receiving something in return wehn necessary at some point. sharing some food for example.
> so I am not sure if I agree about us ‘inventing’ this system, and therefor easily abolishing it.
> but I do agree our current systme is not ideal, to start with there should be a limit to personal wealth, at some point it should be like a full bucket, overflowing to the rest of society that needs it.
> all the money flowing to a few large corporations and a small group of people is indecent while others starve.
> M
Margaret, fix the feelings driving people to accumulate ever more wealth, and wealth ceases to be a problem. The problem and cure are NOT external…
Last one today and to change the subject. Last Sunday was the All Ireland hurling final. (Donal would know what I am talking about). Anyway it was a great game and Tipperary beat Kilkenny and this was the reaction of one of the Tipperary players. He said this right after the game and on national television. For some reason I admire this kind of and also the fact nobody made a fuss about it in the papers or anything else, it was accepted he was just ‘excited’ (Excitably boy they all said) the Irish can be very good like that accepting when someone is ‘excited’ something I don’t find to be all that common…………….
Seems to me that Gretchen has every right to decide what appears on her blog.
Patrick,
You feel to be among those that have identified this conspiracy and strong historical trend; then why fight it? The best solution for you might be to convert to judaism. A lot of advantages with that for you, I would think. For us too, as we wouldn’t need to keep hearing about this. Of course you would need to get circumcised, but that shouldn’t be a problem. You could join a great empire with just that small sacrifice.
Phil
Lol
> Patrick,
> if you think people , because they are primal, should put up with someone repeatedly posting racist and hurtful hate speech and crazy nonsense over and over again, and being rude and offensive to anyone giving any criticism about it, it shows you have no clue what primal is about.
> and then there is also your hidden agenda, you started off with being obnoxious, I quote your own words, just for the sake of it, but by now you are no longer just obnoxious, other words come to mind.
> you cannot stop provoking so it seems you are searching to be kicked off completely. maybe that is not such a bad idea really, as this goes from bad to worse.
> M
> Erron,
> that is a good point.
> but still, for the time being it might be easier to put a limit to acumulated wealth, although I imagine that will be very hard to do.
> and spread the overflow to all kinds of good causes..
> after all, who needs say 10 bilion dollars for himself? that is completely crazy…
> and obscene imo.
> M
Something I read today:
“[Here] are the words of an actual hunter-gatherer — an Inuit from Greenland made famous in the Danish writer Peter Freuchen’s Book of the Eskimo. Freuchen tells how one day, after coming home hungry from an unsuccessful walrus-hunting expedition, he found one of the successful hunters dropping off several hundred pounds of meat [for him]. He thanked him profusely. The man objected indignantly:
” ‘Up in our country we are human!’ said the hunter. ‘And since we are human we help each other. We don’t like to hear anybody say thanks for that. What I get today you may get tomorrow. Up here we say that by gifts one makes slaves and by whips one makes dogs.’
“The last line is something of an anthropological classic, and similar statements about the refusal to calculate credits and debits can be found through the anthropological literature on egalitarian hunting societies. Rather than seeing himself as human because he could make economic calculations, the hunter insisted that being truly human meant refusing to make such calculations, refusing to measure or remember who had given what to whom, for the precise reason that doing so would inevitably create a world where we began ‘comparing power with power, measuring, calculating’ and reducing each other to slaves or dogs through debt.”
Margaret,
I like your bucket analogy as to income and wealth. A maximum should certainly be set for It is outrageous with all the billionaires and millionaires in the world, and others poor and starving.
Phil
The origin of neurosis in humans is a good guessing game, assuming one could be completely free of it in the first place. I agree with Jack that control in its various types is a part of it. To be a bit more specific the following developments (in Neolithic times) might have set the stage for the rise of neurosis: 1) property, leading to 2) social stratification, leading to 3) exploitation of the poor and unlucky; 4) the subjugation of female sexuality, and 5) the advent of warfare and slavery.
Maybe it was the very rise of “civilization” that was a cause of neurosis; so that we can say that societies became neurotic, as they are now. But if civilization is neurotic (or those points Daniel mentioned), why did it arise in the first place. Religion hasn’t had a positive impact either, in general.
Neurosis, I think, is transmitted over generations by families and individuals so it is a difficult task to straighten out society. How can it be done without treating the causes, which reside in individuals, and are passed on to children as they are raised.
I agree more with Daniel; that is very hard even from an anthropologist point of view to designate where when and how neurosis started. The best I heard was Bernard Campbell, a Cambridge professor of Anthropology after both he and his wife (Wendy) did Primal Therapy in the very early days. His suggestion was that it could well have started by groups of northern African crossing the Mediterranean and from there during the winter months needing to keep from freezing in the European winters by living in caves. Once communal living in cave had been settled that created (according to Campbell) the necessity to for hierarchies to subdue the cries, romping and the general ‘unruliness’ of children of children, in a close environment.
Of course this was merely just a suggestion, but he, Campbell, did have credentials for his ideas. In any event is it all speculation. What I feel is more important was if he, Campbell is somewhat correct; it’s not much of stretch to conjecture that it was at this point, varying forms of control were set up (unlike what the nomad from north Africa) never had to endure. Thence, as I see it, it is not much of a stretch to see that an efficient exchange system (coins … money) were introduced for that control. If for the most part this is correct then the very reversing of the processes of control (all exchange systems) could bring about the withering away of a need for; first control of others and especially of little children; and hence a chance that neurosis would become obsolete.
It is, according to Janov (and I totally agree), a survival mechanism in the developing process of first the embryo, then the baby and on until the child starts to use more and more of the left thinking lobe at the expense of the right feeling lobe at about age seven.
Jack
Jack,
More speculation and you have mentioned it as well, that the features of civilizations arose, no doubt, because they had survival value, even though possibly neurosis engendering. Survival concerns trump everything else.
We evolved a large brain with highly developed thinking and feeling capacities but with such a complex system more can go wrong, including neurosis. I think our thinking and feeling capacities must have had survival value or they wouldn’t have evolved.
We are highly successful, with billions of us now living on the planet, even if many of us are neurotic.
Maybe hundreds or thousands of years ago, many of us wouldn’t have survived, being weak because of neurosis and other diseases. Certainly many of us would have died because of childhood illnesses before the advent of vaccines.
The world is a cruel place. Disability, death, and disease of various causes could all result in neurosis for children. What effects the parents, effects the children and their development.
That’s enough cause right there in my mind.
Phil
Phil: Interesting to expose you thinking mind. BUT I cannot agree.
Jack
Phil: I do enjoy the banter with you BUT I felt in this last comment, you were ‘putting the cart before the horse’. Permit me to elaborate.
My counter notion is that because of neurosis we then developed a larger brain-mind … in order to cope … with that neurosis. All other developments that took place after the spread of neurosis among most of humanity like:- Wars, territorial rights and rituals, greed then governments, firstly monarchs and then the further developments of control systems, those monarchs (dictator), needed to main power. All this a major aspect of neurotic thinking. It is, I contend, neurosis came first then all the other factors as a result of this debilitating disease.
I contend (perhaps wrongly … who really knows???) we were just evolving primates. What I contend neurosis did; was set it all in motion. Then created all the other factors that my ‘detractors’ seem to argue against, being a fear of “mayhem” or chaos as I would prefer to call it. We created the societal mayhem AFTER becoming neurotic and not the other way round … IMO.
Just because it is my opinion is not to say that my “contentions” are anywhere near right, BUT for me having spent more than 60 years dwelling on this very point and seeking to find answers, I hope gives me some credence. I did not flip into these notions lightly. Further in order to gain other perspectives, I did make my feelings on these matter public wherever I could and gained (I felt) a sense of current common thinking.
Once I read “The Primal Scream” a great deal of these ideas of mine began to fall into place. I took great pains to think as much of it as I could, through, and it was around this time I came up with the idea to write down my ideas in a book. Then having done that I sought out to find a way to offer therapy that would help the suffering neurotic, knowing that Primal therapy could not be offered to the masses. I came up with a do-it-yourself ‘Feeling Therapy’ (not Primal therapy …that I felt was the domain of the Janovs). Both these books are self published I am aware that to make them salable requires the gift of salesmanship. Something I am not very adept at, but with the hope that someone, out there, would read them, and perform those sales tactics for me.
Jack
Jack,
All I have to add to what I already said is that I don’t believe thinking to be all neurotic,
We occupy a niche in nature that involves using our thinking brains. We don’t run fast, are not very strong, are poor tree climbers, have small teeth etc. But we are smart and can make tools and that has a lot of survival value as we can see in the world today.
It doesn’t make sense to me the idea that thinking is all a consequence of neurosis,
but who knows.
Phil
Phil: for what it’s worth (perhaps little) is that the over development of the human mind IS A RESULT OF NEUROSIS … IN MY OPINION. No other creature has done more to destroy ‘nature’, ‘the planet’ and ‘him/herself’ than the Homo Sapiens of recent times. We humans live by behavior; most of other creatures live by nature My feeling (and perhaps mine alone), is:- We lost our Nature. Sad, sad and even more sad.
‘
As “crack pot” as I may come across to most others … I have no shame, nor guilt nor regrets. I love life … I love blogging … and I love my partner Jimbo. What more could I wish for?????
I got a good deal out of my therapy. Thanks Art, Vivian, Gretchen, Barry et al.
Jack
P.S. Gretchen: it must be taking more of your time than I feel you wish to devote to it, or go through all these comments and sift out the gross from the reasonable. I do not envy you. J
This contains the very mis-leading statement:
“(Theresa May’s) second (act as Prime Minister) was to spend the evening before her confirmation by the Queen at a private dinner at the home of Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis”.
However, this had been arranged for a few weeks. it was not, as is suggested by this statement, answering a summons from the rabbi, with the implication she will receive instructions from him.
This is distorting the truth to fit with the guy’s crazy theories.
I think this is really just quibbling and I wonder how you know so much about this? I don’t think it is implied there was some ‘summons’ at all. Tim you might have to do a bit better than this and you ignore like most people the big picture totally. I was a bit familiar with this thing about the Labor party even though he focuses here on the Tories more but it is disgusting and tiresome that when for example Ken Livingstone said something that was factually true they have to scurry and bow and scrape and plead not to be thought ‘anti-semites’ all because he made a plain factual statement. This is very very tiresome and it is amazing to me that people like yourself try to make excuses about it. Again to me it shows who controls things for real. If you are happy with all that what can I say. I suppose you will be happy with Hillary (if she does not drop dead soon) declaring more and more wars for Israel. This is beyond serious but does anyone care about all the destruction, refugees etc. It seems not so long as they can have their silly ‘paycheck’ Anything else it seems does not matter. Like I said English shop keeper mentality.
So congratulations Gretchen you are at it again! The story that Monica Schaefer wrote contains more truth and also is interesting from the point of view of someone who ACTUALLY changed her mind about a lot of things so UNLIKE most of the primallers who are all about BOLSTERING their view point. Again good for you you did it again. It shows to me how hollow all this so called ‘change ‘ is here we find someone who actually did so that has to be stopped. As I said before the retreats should be called the repeats no change needed at all. In fact it is discouraged It really pisses me off you take it upon yourself to censor like that, if you can’t stand the heat you should not be in the kitchen
So!!!!! Why are still hanging arround the Kitchen … still ????????
\
Jack
I really start to think Hillary Clinton will not make it, she seems to be falling apart physically I mean. I find it very hard to believe she can actually make it through 3 debates to me she is a total hollow mess and a kind of living ‘hoax’. Everything about her is a hoax. I guess I am saying this as a kind of ‘prediction’ I have called some of these hoaxes AFTER they happen I am calling this BEFORE so kind of putting myself forward on this one. Let’s see what happens………….
Patrick, I’m not sure why you are wondering if I will be taking your rascist, homophobic and anti Semitic comments off the blog. I have told you clearly that is what I will be doing. Personally I think that’s exactly what you want. You like seeing yourself as a victim. You continue saying no one will listen to you here but in fact you have posted hundreds of comments and at this point you are repeating the same hideous comments over and over. I think what you mean is that people have listened it’s just difficult for you to accept that they don’t agree. The truth is you like the role of victimized outcast. Otherwise why continue posting here despite the fact you have been clearly told that most people find these comments offensive and hurtful. As for what you posted today I find it rather ” weak” ( as you would say) that you have no problem believing one crazy German woman but you can’t believe thousands. By the way this decision has nothing to do with Daniel. Countless people both on and off the blog have asked that your comments be removed. Most have expressed concern for you and I personally still feel you should get a mental and physical evaluation. It’s hard for me to imagine that those closest to you have not expressed the same concerns. As I told you before this site has been viewed thousands of times. Everyone is clear about how you feel . There is no need to say more. Gretchen
Gretchen – what you are doing here was very well explained by ‘that crazy German woman’ but you were too busy removing her comment. She said it was the use of ‘weaponized language’ which fits exactly your quote here “rascist, homophobic and anti Semitic comments ” By the way you often mention all these people ‘on and off the blog’ who tell you all kinds of things about how I should be removed etc………..seems like some ADL type gathering it does not really scare me though maybe it should. I know these kind of people are VERY vindictive and are extremely intolerant and ‘hateful’ (to use your own kind of language) to anyone who punctures their lies.
And my apologies for my blow up yesterday, which I thank you for also removing.
Tim, Welcome to the blog. We are happy to have you here. I did not have questions about Patrick for you I just wondered if you had met when I saw you were in the moving business. I hope we hear more from you. Gretchen
Margaret, low testosterone hits the old men. grumpy etc. i dont talk to the wife much at all, it rarely turns out well. apparently she and monster dog are not going to Ohio until after Thanksgiving. I will be on pins and needles wondering if that dog will have another biting incident during that time. I love the anthropoligical talk. There is some old pain of mine while reading all the comments above. I feel like i am the only one who has the real answer to all the questions about mankind and its origins. that must be because my grandma talked like only SHE had all the correct answers, and had no time to listen to my thoughts about anything. my poor old grandma. my poor wife. my poor pets. my poor kids. poor me. cant hang on much longer..
i have f’ing had it, pretty much, with this life. nothing at all to look forward to but death. my life goes in no direction that i would like it to be going. pretty much downhill, pushing a giant boulder in front of me, but i seem to be in an anti-gravity zone and the soft soil are both making this last effort nearly impossible. does a dog see art? well, maybe he smells art more than sees it. art for a dog is the forever-lasting presence of pee that some other dog painted on a tree. i dont think we are much different than animals. i got in trouble for telling my crusty old military school housemother that man was just another animal. she did not want to hear that. even though the military school science teacher had just told us all of that information earlier that day. if i had time and money and no work and no pets to take care of, i might travel the world in search of the origins of man, by observing men and women in different places and all of their customs. except that i dont like being around people, that would make it difficult. nope, nothing to look forward to. at some point, i will probably start drinking or smoking pot again, or maybe it is even too late for that.
Patrick, I have no idea what doubling down on a mistake means. I hope you are right about Karma. G
Gretchen – it means making a ‘small’ mistake but to bolster it or cover it up you have to make a bigger mistake or cover up. It reminds me when I was a child I ‘stole’ a little box that you would put pins into and then became aware of that and went to Confession and did not confess it. Now what was a ‘venial’ sin had become a ‘mortal’ sin. Like the difference between a misdemenour and a felony in legal terms but this was more serious. A ‘mortal’ sin meant Hell forever. So………….now I felt I could not confess THAT so now I have a kind of compounded mortal sin Hell forever for sure. Eventually I did confess it ALL and I did feel a lot better, felt huge relief actually……….
Erron , I wasn’t aware you were erased. Sorry about that.G.
Yes, it looks like replying to Patrick (clicking the “Reply” link at the bottom of the comment) has become a dangerous undertaking. When a comment is deleted all direct replies to it get deleted too. A possible solution might b never to reply directly to Patrick and use a new comment instead.
Yeah you’re right about that Daniel. I just saw now Gretchen has erased a whole swath of others where I talked to Tim about “English shopkeeper syndrome” among other things. Nothing to do with her or even Jews. Is criticizing the English not allowed also I guess so if it ties into Jews in any way. Jeez Louis how freaking lame is this. Pisses me off big time…………this is nonsense really annoying
No problem, post in question deserved removal 🙂
Gretchen – I am trying to tell you ‘erasing’ is a slippery slope it’s a bit like lies pretty soon you will not be able to keep it straight yourself what you erased and what you did not. Nobody likes being erased I do not for sure. I actually put thought into what I am doing and do things for a REASON I don’t think it should be up to you to ‘decide’ what goes and what does not. That is a total insult to ‘free speech’ or ‘all feelings are valid’ or whatever words you want to use.
I have always praised the way you made and allowed an ‘open’ blog you do not want to go the way of Janov on this his blog is as dead as a door nail
> Phil, before I read the next comments, I like to say Phil what you wrote about history and possible factors for neurosis did make sense to me.
> neurosis might be a double edged adaptation permitting us to survive under difficult circumstances, but at a dangerously high cost.
> M
So why not join the Jews? You seem to choose to be on the losing team with all these conspiracy theories. Why not be on the winning team?
> poor Patrick,
> such a victim indeed.
> I think you would immediately step out of any winning team really.
> and you have been so mistreated by only having been allowed to post about a hundred posts about the same controversial issue, always coming up with the same non-arguments void of any factual evidence, all coming from the same side of ultra right racist marginal groups.
> you have had a number of fair warnings about racist, homofobic and antisemitic hate mail, and still you keep provoking, what on earth do you expect?
> probably just what happens now, so you can roll around in the victim smell, and get whatever you think you get out of it
>
> what does this recreation really bring you? a false feeling of what?
> hope for what?
> and are you really so stupid or do you think we are to use the simple fact connected comments get deleted together to see that as more proof of targetted censorship?
> your mind is so used to sifting out selfserving information seemingly you lose more and more touch with reality.
> it is disturbing to witness, and makes me worry about you.
> M
As a subscriber I’m receiving all the comments whether they are erased or not. It’s better not to have those racist, insulting comments permanently here on the website; especially since they are so repetitive. If some of my comments are erased in the process, that doesn’t bother me.
Phil
> p.s. and then I don’t even mention the load of nasty personal attacks you made to literally everyone here, as soon as they would even slightly disagree with anything you said.
> a football player that would always go for the person like that instead for the ball, would have gotten a red card long ago, maybe that is one comparison you still can grasp.
> what is also concerning is that your conspiracies you ‘detect’ seem to spread to literally everything, maybe something to pay attention to, it does have all the qualities of a big red flag.
> time to let go of all of this Patrick, if you’d ask me, which of course you don’t .
> M
I can only conclude Gretchen wants me gone all together. I wrote a somewhat long post when I woke up and as I remember it was only about the weather here and how all that affects me. I put on a link about chemtrails also (not a word about Jews promise!) and both are gone as are several others. So she wants me gone? yes it seems so. Also it seems like some deliberate policy of just confusion and discouragement for me I can’t even at this point even say or understand what I did wrong in any specific instance. Well it happens I suppose have worn out my welcome so to speak. Anyway nothing I can do about it I will miss it here for sure. Still now I suppose Leslie and Daniel and many more can be and feel ‘safe’ safe in their little narrow world no ruffian like me to intrude on their thoughts. Margaret can rattle on about her cats and her Mom, Phil can complain about his job, Jack can continue to propound abolishing money and how much greater Janov’s ‘discovery’ is than anyone but he has realized . I suppose the only one here I leave with a sort of uncomplicated good feeling about is Otto for one he actually DOES talk about himself and secondly he never tries to pull some bs on me. Goes about his thing and leaves others to theirs in a very accepting way. Anyway bye bye Otto good luck to you in all your quests. Your life obviously is not easy but you have an amazingly good nature in spite of it all. A lot better than me who tends to lash out. Oh well feels like some kind of next stage to me now I will have to make the best of it. Maybe it is for the best several times recently I felt it would be for the best and even felt ‘gone’ myself but then I always come back. So I will miss that for sure I miss a place to voice my thoughts I was unheard for so long it was intoxicating to be able to be heard very intoxicating in the beginning and that always lingers but maybe I abused it obviously some or a lot of people feel I do. It is a magical thing for me to just put down what is on my mind especially when I wake up. Reminds me one time as I came downstairs from my bedroom my Dad just asked simply “did you sleep well” it threw me a bit at the time just was not used to being asked anything about the way I feel (tears) just that simple question threw me because it was so rare never happened otherwise. So here it’s like the blog asked me every morning ‘did you sleep well’ and I could and did answer over and over again to the point people got so tired of it and said ‘stop enough now’ and maybe it is. But needs never go away so no use in pretending or being a ‘saint’ here I know that does not work either. I will miss it terribly like a love story over. I have had no so many of those love stories I mean but my mind and imagination was always active. I am thinking there is some song that could convey this now some kind of ‘quiet’ Lou Reed song or something. I love Lou Reed and he was a Jew so I don’t hate Jews or something just what I see as the ‘constructed’ nature of the whole thing. Even Jews are being used by believing all the crap that is stuffed into them maybe they are being used the most of all but like school yard bullies I can’t feel sorry for them right now. That level of ‘sainthood’ does not work for me and is way beyond me by choice also
This was the song that was in the back of my mind. Listening to it and crying a bit here it seems no accident also I mention the Jewish thing and schoolyard bullies…………..I had that in spades such a mark on me, I rejected it at the time did not accept it all, got away to boarding school all by my own efforts but the mark remains Such a deep mark maybe also because it was and even is so unexpected. I know the Irish culture has reserves of mercy and tenderness beyond all understandings and yet it was there I was hurt so much and even by that very thing or at least it came from that very place. Hard impossible really to get it through my head. Anyway the song
Oops another song I have to say ‘to wake up with you/makes my morning so bright/wipe the sleep from my eyes/when you tell me your dreams’ from the song the opposite of being bullied a good start to the day like when my Dad asked me if I slept well and even today I look for a good start best of all to see the sun rise something I can’t do here either no sun all blocked out all gone………..best I suppose would be if I had someone to tell me their dreams and to hear mine too but the sun itself is a pretty good ‘second best’
> sorry Patrick but these last comments do strike me a bit like drama queen stuff.
> you distort what is going on here, turning it into a personal thing against you, innocent you once more, while i seem to remember you again had a sneer at those Jews in that last deleted comment.
> the ‘unnatural clouds’ were connected to them if I recall your reasoning well…
>
> and now this big goodbye once more, just skipping over your childhood stuff briefly in what seems more like going throuugh some primal motions for the effect than genuine looking inwards at yourself on a deeper level that might face you with some truth about your present behaviour.
> and still sneering around, ha, should I be feeling bad now for having talked about mom and cat? at least they are real..
> another big goodbye scene as a prelude for more mud throwing?
> and you forget, of course, you also immediately tried to insult Otto when he did not agree with you on something, forgive me for forgetting in which way.
> phony phony phony dude.
> M
> p.s. and you have a very strange way of responding to the blog’s good morning and how did you sleep I must say..
> although the answer is certainly way more complicated, than this way or the other, it may be the other way around as well for all we know, Jack, neurosis may have become more prone to occur due to the larger brain hominides kept developing during the last 5 million years.
> a bigger increase in the growth occurred when the shift of their diet changed into including much more meat , around the time large woods were replaced by a lot of savannah, and cooperating in groups became more crucial to surviving.
> at least that is what my textbooks relate with a lot of referrings to numerous studies and findings and comparisons of skull size and dietary accounts from ancient traces .
> interesting stuff to read, and also kind of humbling as we are such a small speck considering itself zoo important, but a split second on the timescale so far.
> if we go on destroying earth, I would almost hope earth gets on top of us before we can do so, and brings us back to reason or at least diminishes our numbers and impact..
> nothing I can do about this all except try to be conscientious about my own behavior…
>
> M
Margaret: If my memory serves me correctly you did say some time ago that you felt I was “ill informed”. I wonder if you still feel this way. If indeed you have access to studies that reasonably refute my ideas, I would be interested in looking at them.
I have and stated, these ideas of mine are not just flipped of the top of my head, but that I have done a great deal of dwelling on them (done my homework). History is repleat with folks dismissing others that have spent time and energy into considering many obtuse ideas. Copernicus and Galileo are perhaps the most notorious. Not that I am attempting to compare myself to them My main point in all this discussion is to stimulate myself and others into looking at things from a different perspective. It maybe that you think I do not have the education or the wit to make such claims, BUT I personally find that those that just flip another’s feelings/reasoning by a mere 2 second thought are the ones STUCK in a box. Merely just my feeling.
Since I did mension a request by Gretchen to “think outside the box” at one retreat, I have endeavored to follow through on that very notion. However, I do potentially recognize that you may well have a feeling behind the dismissal. Not that I know because in effect I don’t know. Merely a suggestion. Phil did ask me if I ever contemplated the idea that I might be wrong and I answered that I often do question myself about being right and/or wrong.
Do I have a purpose other than my own ego, for suggesting the reversal of neursis by the very means that I feel was the major reason for it’s creation?
The answer is yes!!! unequivocally. I was lucky enough to get this therapy and for my own compulsive reasoning, I do wish there was a way to reverse it, for the rest of humanity this debilitating disease. Since I am acutely aware that Primal therapy cannot be given to all 7 billion of us …. and if not then I do see the demise and extinction of the human race; and sooner than I feel is generally considered. As an example I would suggest is the rise of Donald J. Trump, clambering for the Presidency of the United Sates, to be a case in point.
I am not afraid of disagreements, but it would be nice if on disagreeing, one might give a counter point … other than just saying there are studies out there that make different points. There are, as you may well be aware, studies abound in all areas of science and technology.
Jack
Jack,
What I wonder is how would you introduce a no money policy into society? Especially if you don’t allow bartering either? How would it work?
Tim: To answer that question fully would take up more space that I feel this blog would allow. But let me put a question back to you. How does the currnet system work. It doesnt work … humans do work, even bees do work. Systems don’t work … they happen and the current one is so, so, so complext and covoluted with Police forces, Millitaries, Governments, School, Prisons, Country boundaries, Laws understandable to only attorneys having spent 8 years studying all that boring stuff in higher education facilities.
It is my contention that if we were to abolish money and all forms of control 95% of all that complex and convoluted stuff would just evaporate and Voila we’d be saying “WHY THE FUCK DID WE NOT THINK OF THIS BEFORE” Howeveer, the great word that is bandied around in what we deem civilization, which is anything BUT civil is “BRAIN WASHED”. It all happened in those formative years long bevore we had language and ideas and the capacity to think. At that time ALL we were able to do was feel and express in a very simple direct and natural manner our feelings.
For any of those that have RE-LIVED those formative times it’s ‘earth shattering’.
So back to how it might all operate. Each person would be soverign unto themselves including babies and no-one would be telling anyone what they had to do, where they had to go, how fast they had to get there, and where, when and why of anything. However in order to concieve of any of that; requires a mind set that is willing to think, conjecture, figure out for themselves just what they themselves would do.
The main aguament against it is is that if we allowed everyone to just run with it, they’d steal all they wanted and would kill everyone they hated and on and on and on. In all the years I have been discussing this those questions have been put back to me with; “oh no, not me” … but implying the other guy would. In all the years I have been asking that question I have yet to find the guy who’d say “I would” My suspicion is:- that guy does not exist. Crime, murder, greed are all as a result of the need for MONEY.
Sorry Tim, that is the best for now that I can do.
Jack
Jack,
On one hand you seem to be suggesting this as some kind of utopian state, not completely unlike the Big Rock Candy Mountain. I was prompted to describe primal as your religion because of this idea. It sounds like most peoples’ idea of heaven. If you asked almost anyone what their idea of heaven would be they wouldn’t even mention the lack of money, because that would be presumed. However, in heaven they also would have “hung the jerk that invented work”.
But you actually appear to be putting this forward as a serious practical answer to the world’s problems. Would you outlaw any exchange of goods? Even the people who in ancient times lived the simplest of lives, still traded with other tribes.
How would you make sure that no-one started up a new currency, just after you had successfully destroyed all the old ones?
Tim: Your questions are indeed valid, but they stem form your feeling of utopia, heaven, and all the other paraphenalia. Certainly NOT MINE If you were to remember some of the, so called saying, of the character Jesus he claimed “Suffer the little children to come unto me FOR theirs IS the kingdom of heaven” (emphasis mine.) This is not too far a reach from the teachings (if that is the right word) of Arthur Janov. Contemplate that statement, I will repeat it:- “Suffer the little children to come unto me FOR theirs IS the kingdom of heaven”. If you want to know what a system ‘WITHOUT’ money would feel like, consider the world of of new born babies born into a loving and caring parents. That is the world that would ensue IF we were to abolish that, that created the current mess.
I doubt you will give it much thought. I suspect that you’ll draw from what I say, a characterization of me and my ideas. Think back for a moment what it must have been like for Copernicus and Galileo when they suggested that the earth was not flat, and that the sun does not go around us … even though ALL the current logic of the time suggested otherwise.
The very same principle applies here also In:- “The Gospel According to Jack” 🙂 .
Primal therapy, as I see it, was a new found concept where it was deemed only the patient knows him/herself. the medical profession, and in particular the neurophysisist, and the psychological profession are still not able to “get their arms round’ that notion. Providing time does not run out on us, I contend it will eventually become mainstream.
Jack
Jack,
More food for thought.
Your ideas on money don’t seem to connect with the root causes of why people become neurotic, and that’s why I’m not seeing the logic. Money had nothing to do with my traumas and I don’t really hear other people mention it much in relation to therapy.. My family was poor, and we lived in a wealthy town, but that never has amounted to much when I recall my history. It’s all about my parents and other family members and love that was there or missing.
You know the therapy basics very well, I’m sure, so why mix up ideas about money as some causative problem, or solution?
Do these ideas somehow come from your history in some way you could describe, other than years of thinking on the problem and evaluating theories?
It is a drag to be lacking money and have to work continuously as an adult but I think it’s very
possible to raise a healthy family under those conditions, if there are two parents who love the child and they are conscious and competent adults.. That’s what was lacking in my family.
Mothers and fathers not being present enough at home is a problem, but there should be ways to address that other than your solution.
Our modern economy is a complex system in which people receive food, fuel, water, clothing, housing and other life essentials. Our governments operate on a budget to supply essential services. Eliminating money from the system would be like trying to remove a wheel from a rapidly moving vehicle in which we are all passengers. There would be a terrible crash and many people would die.
How would your idea be implemented to avoid that scenario?
Phil
Phile: See and read carefully my response to Tim … before this one. The phrase I wish to convey is “Brain Washed” Long before we had the means to even know it was happening.
Jack
I guess your personal feeling is that you were brainwashed ..
Patrick, maybe you are wanting people to lash out at you (unconsciously)? anyway, if you still get some tears from remembering your childhood, maybe you are still somewhat ok. this stuff is all so simple, and at the same time, so complicated. anyway, I’m sorry, but this is so effing funny:”Still now I suppose Leslie and Daniel and many more can be and feel ‘safe’ safe in their little narrow world no ruffian like me to intrude on their thoughts. Margaret can rattle on about her cats and her Mom, Phil can complain about his job, Jack can continue to propound abolishing money and how much greater Janov’s ‘discovery’ is than anyone but he has realized “. I hesitate to say it, but we all do what we have to, to survive. I have no clarity as to what you have done to survive. I think when you gave into the urge to secretly hoard green potatoes down in the cellar next to the whiskey barrels, that was what finally did you in. Because at that point, the groundhogs, or whatever their Irish equivalents are, decided to tell tales about Irish compassion that ran on late into the night. Not trying to f with you, trying to be funny and say just keep on keeping on. The asteroids that end the human condition will be here soon enough.
jack, or anyone, if you know what (or if) there are any differences there are between art janov’s “primal training” therapy and the PI therapy, i would be interested to know. that is as interesting as trying to figure out mankind ‘s origins with a few smashed-in skulls. can you imagine that those skulls were even found at all, what with the many thousands of years and miles and miles of spaces that man and woman has occupied (and NOT occupied) on the planet? and the big thing is that mankind is always trying to figure out if there is life elsewhere in the universe. obviously the predator side of the brain got bigger to overshadow the feeling brain’s remorse about the killing of other animals to eat them. and the thing about some people being cannibals is handily swept under the rug. maybe cannibalism was required at some point in time and that is what sped the monkey into modern man status. when i see an anthropologist pick up a skull and show it to us, on national geographic or whatever, i get the willies knowing that that person had all the horror of dying for sure. and i know what it is like to die, i have been so close to dying a couple or more of times when young. absolutely effing insane. just rambling on. good night. have to go to work tomorrow and get some lunatic teach me how to use a piece of software so that our printers wont get compromised by hackers. over the phone and also him showing me remotely on my computer. but the program he uses only shows what he is doing in tiny tiny views, and my eyes have gotten incredibly bad lately so i can barely follow what he is showing me, and he shows me at a mile a minute and my brain was slow 40 years ago, and now is quite worse, and he absolutely refuses to slow down, he is probably bored with showing this shit, and i am not looking forward to tomorrow, only that i will get some coffee and food to stoke my diabetes so that my eyes are even worse. ha. then i get to come home and pet the sick cat and fungal dog and monster dog. rambling rambling. tgif. and dread the fact that there are mice under the house and in the garage and cockroaches in the kitchen, all probably came home with me from work in cardboard boxes that i hoard, having once had only cardboard boxes as friends when i was stuck in an attic for long periods of time awaiting possible execution like those poor squealing baby pigeons.
Otto,
My understanding is that the therapy at the Primal Center is a little more directive. I haven’t experienced it myself but did have a buddy who did therapy there. She said that some patients there believe that too much talking goes on at the P.I. In fact she tried to discourage me from attending the retreat. I’m glad that I thought on it and made my own decision.
What I gather from all this is there’s more trying to go for the feeling at the Primal Center, rather than letting it happen. Maybe more emphasis on 1st line feelings over there as well.
Phil
Otto: I doubt there is very much in the way Primal Therapy is conducted at the Primal Center as opposed to the Primal Institute … but in effect I DO NO REALLY KNOW.
The anthropologist I referred to, did do Primal Therapy in the early days and my recollection was that he and his wife did hope to open a Primal Institute in England. I went to see his wife in Cambridge at the time feeling that I did not have the money or the means to survive in the US.
She did give me more than an hour interview, and made a complimentary remark to me about my understanding of Primal therapy. However they did not open and Institute, but if I have it correct, their son does work as a therapist at the Primal Center.
Why I feel that Arthur Janov made the greatest discovery of all time is: that the discovery he made was about us humans as a creature on the planet. Finally someone defined our species’ ultimate problem … about ourselves.
As for the question about money that was first thought through bu a Frenchman, Proudhon. It was a remarkable idea and book and I have read it and several other related books on what is deemed “anarchy” … meaning without any hierarchy, laws or money. Engels and Marx followed through as did many others but the idea never did take hold. Marx went a step further and attempting to state how that may be brought about. For me that was his greatest mistake and Stalin’s Russia bore out that point IMO. My reasoning being that we humans had gone too far down into the pit of what we deem is civilization.
I don’t figure for one moment that I will have any influence in bringing any of it about. Neurosis is far to far entrenched IMO
Jack
Most blogging software, I believe, allows holding of an individual’s posts for approval by the moderator(s) before publication. Just saying…
> Jack,
> I am not sure why you react in such a defensive way to what I wrote.
> I was not at all dismissing what you said, I just mentioned it could also be the other way around, as human brains kept growing in size for the last 5 million years, so with your hypothesis that they grewo because of neurosis neurosis would have to gone back that far really, at least, would that not be a logical deduction of your premises?
> you seem to feel I accuse you of being ill educated, I don’t think I said that, but it is a continuously evolving science and noone can be up to date with everything, so for me all kinds of information are welcome.
> I don’t know if I am also one of the people you perceive as dismissing your ideas within two seconds, you seem very sensitive about all of this and so defensive it must have deeper layers of feeling attached to it imo.
> why is it such a big deal if we have different ideas, none of us seem to pretend to own the truth yet you feel attacked seemingly.
> no harm done on this side, just mentioning what strikes me.
> M
> Jack, forgot to say that if you really like to read more on this, look for writings from Tooby and Kosmides, two professors from Santa Barbara university who are famous in the field of evolutionary psychology.
> M
> thinking more about this, I think greed in general is the basic problem, not only for money, but for power, territory etc.
> i think a lot of these post-apocalyptic fiction that is written now makes a good picture, of gangs roaming the streets, small groups of people trying to survive, specially women and children being vulnerable, and old or disabled people can forget it completely unless they have close and caring relatives who can find ways of support for them.
> with the amount of people now on this world, anarchy seems completely disastrous, like where on earth would the food come from, who would be willing to work if anybody can walk in and steal away the fruits of your labour?
> soon groups of armed people would start forming I assume, with al the horror of going back to warlords and the majority of people starving in awful ways.
> I am not saying a society without money is impossible or bad, on the contrary, but in this current situation of the world it is highly unlikely it could be achieved .
> maybe you could write a novel Jack, about such a society, that would make an interesting read.
> i always liked science fiction for that reason, as an eye opener for other forms of society and social structures.
> but I fear it is still part of our genetical tenplate to have a tendency for hierarchic struggles, specially in the male part of mankind, any group species is inclined to install a pecking order, which can work fairly well in relatively small groups, but on a larger scale gets out of hand.
> for more elaboration if anyone is interested again look for Tooby and Kosmides and literature and studies they refer to.
> nothing carved in stone, but ways of thought and reasoning that seem to make sense, at least about some aspects of society.
> M
> see what I meant by a phony drama queen goodbye act, with even some crocodile tears?
> then back to the old stuff…
>
> M
What the f… is up with you? Don’t you do constant ‘drama queen’ or whatever nonsense word you want to use and then always back to the old stuff also. For f…. sake lady chill out and allow someone else (me) to have my own thoughts and ideas. Jeez lady you sound super frustrated. Do I EVER tell you to stop talking about whatever. I accept it is important to you just as my stuff is important to me. Jeez give me a fucking break!! And just because you get support from the powers that be good for you but it does not intimidate me and it won’t
Jack,
You never answer questions on how all your ideas could be put in place and still keep everyone on earth alive. Those ideas could be tried if we wanted to start from scratch with a few thousand people. It’s not so much that we’ve been brainwashed, it’s that we were born into an existing system.
Greed, of course will take place without money and bartering. It won’t be eliminated.
You never answer my questions relating to your primal history either, whether your traumas had something to do with money,
All of this is a product of many years thinking, exactly what you say we shouldn’t be doing.
Better idea, I think, live with the existing system as we can, vote for people who want to make sensible adjustments. That, of course, is what we have to do anyway, instead of nice fantasies which can never become reality
Phil
Jack,
Your ideas are producing a lot of lively discussion here, which is a good thing, and I’m still considering them.
In the mean time though, I’m here at work having to make money. At least it’s medical care, which I see as a necessary and useful service.
Which brings up another point: Our advanced civilization also brings a lot of advantages such as medical care, arts, and all kinds of advanced products which we enjoy and take for granted. Without the motivation of money or other perks, what would be anyone’s motivation for creative development. Capitalism does seem to work with human motivations. It just needs to be heavily regulated to prevent excesses and harmful practices.
Phil
I think there are two crucial points we must consider and in my mind are relevant not only to us as a society but also to us as individuals: 1) As others have said, the creation of society demanded some type of rules and laws and a way to enforce those laws. No society can live without them, and the reason is the fundamental reality of, 2) scarcity. Unfortunately, resources are limited, in nature and in each of us, while on the other hand our collective needs are not. This gap between needs and available resources makes us having to give something up, to choose the satisfaction of one need while forgoing the satisfaction of another need (in individual language one would say this is part of growing up).
And more relevant from our Primal point of view such a state of affairs brings into the picture phenomenon such as safety or its lack, fear, frustration and anger and belligerence.
In the rare occasion where scarcity is not a problem – for example: air – then we wouldn’t feel we have to price it, hoard it, protect it and fight or beg for it. Naturally, if we take that air under-water the whole situation changes again because now it’s very scarce and we’ll feel panicked without it and do our utmost to get it, even if it’s taking it from somebody else.
Nowhere can the two extremes be better seen and felt than in the nursing couple of mother and baby, where on the one hand and in spite of the baby being totally dependent on others, if all goes well scarcity is not felt by the baby because all is timely and appropriately provided by mom and dad. And on the other hand, if mom and dad, for whatever reason, cannot supply what is needed, then the baby because of its utter dependence must feel scarcity on a grand scale and mayhem, internal and external, will commence.
I think that what you write, Jack, is homage to that yearning a part of us all feels for that original mother-infant situation, where all was (or should have been) taken care of in a way that made us feel warm and safe and without any lack.
Yes, Daniel, sounds right..
Hi Jo, nice to see you again. I’ve been meaning to ask you, How did you get that beautiful avatar?
Hey Daniel, thank you for the compliment!
The picture is of a favourite old fig tree, and I added my name, somehow (!) via an art app.. Corel Draw or Paint (a while ago).. Then somehow, within WordPress, you can access ‘gravitas’ and upload something of your choice from ones pics.. sorry to be so vague – it is a while!
I meant ” Gravatar” !
Daniel,
I like what you say about scarcity, a lot of good points.
I think it’s true that rules and laws are necessary in society so that we can all live in harmony, or at least try to.
Even in a tribe or 10 or 20 people some rules might need to be set.
Phil
> just saying I don’t buy these big goodbye scenes anymore..
> they seem a part of the victim role.
> M
I am not selling so no need for you to buy. Mind your own business.
Jo,
Thanks, nice to see you back.
Phil
> Phil,
> I agree with it being an interesting discussion.
> catch myself still thinking about it as well, and one thing that came to my mind is that it makes a big difference how the starting situation is.
> let’s take a relatively small group of regular people, who in some way would be suddenly in a situation that Jack describes.
> now I can imagine if the group already has bonds of kinship and friendships it could work, if they could have ways to provide food and shelter etc., they would also make sure to take care of the elderrly and the sick or disabled, and bring them food and make sure they are warm and sheltered.
> but if the starting point is a group of people that have no connection with each other and are used to live more or less independently as in these day so often is the case, a lot of people risk falling between the mazes of the non-existing social network, and no social services anymore, as there would be no laws or regulations, and as everyone needs to fend for themselves, what would happen to those people who are physically or mentally uncapable of finding their own food and other necessities? small naturally developed communities could function but other groups would not, and soon violence and chaos might take over and make a lot of victims.
> people are no angels, specially young male adolescents might have a strong tendency to form ganglike groups and fight for what they want.
> other people might have to try to protect their loved ones etc.
> even most remaining hunter gatherer communities tend to regard their own group as human but not the neigbouring tribe, which they often have an ongoing animosity with for territory , and often a habit of regular stealing of females etc.
> we do not stem from monkeys but are two branches from the same tree, and most primates are not that peaceful with regard to other groups from other territories.
> so I fear laws and regulations will always be useful as steady guidelines for those cases someone behaves in a socially unacceptable way, money or no money.
> also there are experiments which seem to prove we have an inbuilt capacity to detect ‘cheaters’ in our groups, opportunists who do not add their two cents but try to live on the effort of others.
> even in game theory it turns out in the long run the best atitude for everyone concerned is the ‘tit for tat’ as it is called, in a situation where the choices are to work together for a bit of less gain, but mutual gain, or to cheat and have more, and the other nothing, or to both cheat and both lose out, or to be the one cheated on and be the ‘loser’, it is called the prisoner’s game, the best strategy turns out to start off by showing goodwill and to take the cooperative choice, risking the other will not, and from then on, to follow what the other one does, if he behaves in a negative way respond negatively, if he cooperates respond in that way the next time. that is the strategy that is most beneficial for all players in the long run, even while cheating may be ‘beneficial on the short term.
> I find that a good example of gneral processes in society, show goodwill, and from there one the other gets more or less what he deserves by response on his own attitude.
> Patrick, this goes for you as well, you used to be a much nicer person long ago, but have behaved here in a hostile way to all of us at some point, nasty and trying to hurt, so what do you expect if you behave like that? can’t you see you set yourself up all the time for rejection?
> M
Margaret,
Maybe in the future people can try some different ideas for communal living, when we colonize habitable planets, if we ever make it that far, and if life on earth survives.
I think all the habitable areas of this planet are already claimed by one country or another making it impossible to try. We will have to work within the communities and systems we already have, I’m afraid, and make small incremental changes. Large changes and revolutions end up being too violent and deadly. Experiments in China and the Soviet Union led to the deaths of millions of people last century.
Phil.
For everyone: at least all those many that responded to me:
In order to attempt to answer some of what I feel are the salient points; one major one from Phil asking what in my background is driving my thoughts on this, I will attempt a general answer. If I miss a salient point that someone asked, forgive me, and ask the question again.
I’ll start off with Phil’s question about my background. I was lucky in that I had a very reasonable, instinctive and loving mother, who loved my father and considered her pregnancy with me (her first of four) to be his baby, whom she loved and adored (my father that is). Then because my mother’s father committed suicide (he suffered terribly from asthma), whilst my mother was 5 month pregnant with me. My mother told me years later, she did not grieve her father’s death, though she loved him dearly, because of the baby inside her; me. I now know that was a mistake on my mothers part. The fetus me could have taken her grief and sadness. Not expressing that grief made the fetus me, find the womb unconformable and I feel was the start of my homosexuality. However, to add to all this I have a sense that my Granny (my mother’s mother), might have considered I was a re-incarnation of him, and when I was born doted on me like the sun shone out of my ass hole. That doting went on for years to the point that my siblings referred to her as Jack’s granny. My mother was not perfect but I, (a little more than my siblings), got a lot of love and caring. For me it was my father who disciplined us kids in a very forceful manner spanking almost every night, for misbehaving after been sent to bed earlier than we needed.
We were not anywhere near middle class, but my father being a grocer for the local co-op, meant we never went short on food and we lived in a house that his mother owned and though we paid her rent we were never threatened with being put on the streets. My father to show why he felt the way he did; told my brother in law, when my youngest sister married him. “The way to deal with children is to break their spirit. His father was brought up with horses and apparently that is how one trains a horse. He, my father meant well, but that was not good enough for us, his four babies all of us within three years..
Yes I suppose I thought of our family as poor compared to the other families of our playmates. However, on thinking about this I don’t I don’t think that was the major influence on me becoming an anarchist. That notion was set in motion in my early twenties after leaving my childhood home. There might in the minds of some after reading this to ask:- then what brought you/me to Primal Therapy.? I had in or around 1966 a re-living experience in a London clinic that shattered all my prior thinking for years, that I have related it in both my books and will not repeat it here. Just to say it shattered me for years until I read “The Primal Scream” From there-on-in I knew I WANTED this therapy. Not that I needed it. Hope that makes sense.
For the rest, I can only ask that to understand fully the essence and meaning of “Anarchy” that one reads the many books and thinkers that influenced me. Starting with Jean Paul Proudhon and on to Karl Marx and Engels and many others. These are books I read and quickly absorbed in my mid to late twenties. I am far from an originator of any of these thinking’s, philosophies or ideas. Then at the point of reading “The Primal Scream” that it occurred to me that all my childhood teachings, both from my parents and teachers were nothing more than “brain washing” Learning is simply normal and natural … teaching is complex convoluted and against our better nature. All other creatures learn; mainly from observing, they are never taught … that requires language … the spoken kind
As for civilization all I can add is that wars, territorial demands, militarizes, greed, inequalities, starvation and all the other trappings; came into being as a result of losing our natures. Had we let it take it’s natural course, like with most other creatures, we would not have allowed over-population in the same manner that other creatures don’t, and hence shortages would not have occurred. All the speculation as to how, why, where and when, are human perceptions; due, IMO, to neurosis. I personally, cannot see it any other way AND spent time and energy thinking on it.
Jack
P.S. Sorry Margaret if you did not state I was “ill informed.” I did not have any problem with you saying that, as I put it down to ‘your feeling’ not to be reckoned as a universal ‘truth’. If you equally see me as being defensive over all this I will look into that. Off the cuff I do try hard to prevent doing that.
J
Jack,
Thanks for all of this.
It sounds like there’s nothing that specific you can point to in your history that led to your ideas. Similar to my own strong interest in the environment and nature. I may have picked that up from my father, as he liked gardens, plants, and nature, but in a different way. So I can’t completely account for that.
One thing I’d point out; I think that animals in nature will overpopulate and die off as conditions determine. Shortages or changes in the environment will occur leading to a die off. Normally nature is in balance because of predators, disease, scarce resources, and the fact that organisms are evolved to live only in a specific niche.
But mankind has been so “successful” that we are crowding out other living creatures and I’m afraid that we are entering an era of mass extinctions. For all living things the instinct is to reproduce, that is a primary goal. It seems with current trends the future looks pretty bleak for life on this planet, with climate change, environmental destruction, the threat of nuclear contamination and war. It doesn’t look good, but I don’t spend time dwelling on all that, as there’s nothing much I can do.
Phil
Phil: I’m inclined to agree with most of what you state, particularly in the last paragraph. However the statement by anyone that says “there’s little I can do about it”. Depends on what exactly is meant by “little”.
If all those that had differing notions, about things stated the very same sentiments, then I feel NOTHING would ever get achieved. In that sense I disagree. There is much that can be done and the one mostly stated by those attempting to make change; state that it takes a critical mass to first have that notion, and second to promote that nation at every given opportunity.
It is my feeling that Arthur Janov, could well state a similar sentiment after all the books he’s written and still there is NO universal consideration of his ideas, theories nor even a consideration of the discovery he made. For my part I will continue to my dying day to promote my ideas about the failings of human civilization, and the pending doom should nothing be done. Capitalism, the usage and manipulations of money, and all forms of exchange, got us into the mess you infer. To protest those ‘preconceived’ notion is something we can ALL do … since, as I see it, most KNOW there is some amiss the way we humans go about our business … Assuming there is nothing that can be done: then we are all at the mercy of “fate” (status quo)
Just one book in 1970 “The Primal Scream” did start a stair. Why it didn’t expand from there I have my theories. It is the very nature of practicing Primal therapy that upset the professionals believing (erroneously IMO) that they had the expertise. They didn’t and Janov took great care to not allow anyone with a license and 8 years of training in Freudian therapy to apply Primal Therapy from merely reading his book/s. My feeling … they took umbridge at that, and did there best to squelch it.
Sort of, how I see the Republicans are doing their utmost to squelch any chance for Hilary Clinton to gain the presidency. It’s a factor, as I see it, of just how prior thinking is very hard to re-formulate. I saw a program on PBS last night whereby the authorities are all hell-bent on trying to reverse the terrorist mind-set … without taking into consideration just what we in the West did to promote it … and them. They call re-radicalization. I see the whole thing as just another outcome of neurosis.
However Phil, in most senses, I feel we are on a similar (if not quite the same) page.
Jack
Corrections:- 2nd paragraph reads:- … “have that nation” … should have read:- “have that notion”
6th paragraph reads:- … “what we in the West did to promote it … and them.” … should have read:- “what we in the West did to promote it … and then.”
Jack
So on this way of thinking electing Hillary Clinton is some kind of ‘progressive’ move? Really? We pretty much KNOW what she will do we have the wreckage in Libya and Syria as examples. Do you really want MORE of this? It’s all find for us in the West to sit around and talk this rubbish put yourself in the position of a Libyan or a Syrian. Sad and ridiculous.
quote:- “We pretty much KNOW what she will do” who’s the “Royal” we?????? I din’t realize that among your other talents (or should it be “tallons”) You are able to mind-read Hillary. But then you are a “Trump fan” I gather from your prior posts.
I have stated before that you and Trump have one thing in common … You’re both seemingly “embarrassing”
Jack
Jack,
Republicans especially hate Hillary Clinton, I think at least partly for just being a strong woman. I think she will win the election but it won’t be easy. The debates will be a real circus. I don’t know how anyone can be on the wall about the choice here, except to look at a 3rd party candidate.
If Clinton can’t win New York, where I am, or California, then it will be a landslide for Trump. These are not battleground states, which means no guilt for considering alternate candidates. We are still stuck with this ridiculous system of small underpopulated states having too much representation. A heritage of special privileges for southern slave states.
I agree that we are more or less on a very similar page.
Phil
Phil: I just hope Trump does not make it anywhere near the White House. Even many Republicans are afraid of his bombast. What amazes me are the number of Americans that actually feel the guy is politically adept.
However, I am not sure he’s going to take the country with a landslide and I do feel Hilary is pretty prepared to not make false steps..
It is the Republican house that set out early to squelch her campaign fearing they, Republicans are already in a tenuous political situation. However, we’ll l see. My take is for all the belief in Democracy, what actually never occurs is:- the people NEVER govern in any sense of that word. They, without admitting it, are powerless. Corporations and big business and those with money run the show and have always done so. They use their money very effectively to subvert the masses.
However, All I can say for myself is that I did ok in this life. My concern is for the Millennials. I do have grand nephews and nieces in this age group.
Jack
Jack,
I agree with what you say here. I hope that the young people will go out and vote.
Many of them are discouraged because they were Bernie Sanders supporters. I hope the future is not as bad as I fear for the sake of my sons who are both young adults and all the others just starting out..
Phil
Phil: I too have had most of my life, and I do feel the need to pass it on to the next generation. However, there is a part of me that would like to see some major radical change in the way we humans conduct our lives.
Most of it based on what I read some 46 years ago with Janov’s first book. It sure changed my life and I would hope that others could have the same revelations I got on reading that first book,
It was for me an exciting time, and I sense the lack of excitement for this generation. It gives me a sense of sadness. I did my bit and now I leave it to them to maybe revitalize that whole period of hippydom and then the book that changed everything for me.
Jack
I explained to you as patiently and at twice that I am not a “Trump fan” but makes no difference……………’listening’ is not your thing. As far as Hillary is concerned though she is a dangerous witch imo but it looks like her problems are now with herself nothing to do with anyone ‘squelching’ her
This isn’t much of a surprise to people who’ve been to PT or have read and liked Primal literature: Researchers from NIH, Rochester University and Colorado University found that mothers’ mental health during and immediately after pregnancy has long-term effects on later child behavior.
Specifically, children to mothers who were anxious or depressed or smoking during pregnancy were more likely to develop conduct disorders during childhood and adolescence.
Here it is. Just read the conclusion at the bottom.
Although it’s no surprise it’s still important, because where respectable research is public funds may follow.
Daniel,
That’s good news about that research finding. I hope money does become availble for more studies along those lines.
Phil
I had already turned off the pc last night when another brilliant thought hit me. and of course, now it seems irrelevant. it was something a little more about my thoughts on cannabalism. something about how people are symbolically eating each other, such as in monsanto selling poison to the world so that the people in their company can eat dinner, etc. well, it seemed like a good idea last night as i was drifting off to sleep. never mind. i dont really watch many zombie movies at all, but that seems to be all that hollywood can come up with these days. what is the story with that? maybe we are dogs eating our fellow dogs. the monkey/wolf connection, what a conspiracy. blah blah gibberish. I was listening to a show on sirius doctor channel about sex today on the way home from work. something was said that made me feel bad about the lack of sex in my life. z and i dont have much sex, no touching of any kind. i feel bad about the way i feel about her. but i cant set my bad feelings towards her aside. then i was listening to a story of a husband and wife with kids, who had different and conflicting work hours so that they had sex only every 6 months, and the lady kept coming up with revelation after revelation of all the impediments in their life that kept mom and dad apart, and it sounded kind of like my life, but again it also sounds like a typical “married with kids” life in the 21st century, with schlepping the kids off to daycare and rushing off to work, and getting very little out of life. the american dream. ah just rambling. are the people in villages any more connected with their village mates? ah probably just about me, so unconnected with everyone.
then i also had a revelation this morning while i was listening to ‘aint that a shame’ by fats domino on the radio,driving in the dark to work.not sure if the song had anything to do with it, but i had a momentary brain blip that i could leave all the shit in my head behind, all the sorrow of the past year and of the past 64 years, forget it all, or set it aside and be done with it, and start a new happy hopeful life. maybe if i found the right anti depressant or took testosterone or kept doing therapy, or just because i had already done enough therapy and my brain was saying, ok, enough already, now lets do a 180 and have joy and hope and interest in life. well, that went away in minute. but certainly it was interesting to have a microsecond of ecstasy.
Phil, that is interesting to hear you say that maybe they “go for the feeling” at art’s place as opposed to the pi’s ‘letting the feeling happen’. interesting stuff. and bb had mentioned to me about ‘going in the back door’ to get to a feeling (not my feeling). i recall, i think vivian was having a followup with my starting group, and reading some of our member’s records aloud to us all, and i think some girl wanted to hear her stuff, and vivian read “so-and-so pushes for feelings”. well, that has haunted me forever since then, not to mention the dreaded word that has been mentioned earlier in this blog, cant think of the name, but something like you are not really feeling the feeling. on the tip of my tongue. haunts me, but not as much as it used to. i think z used to accuse me of it, which i cant forgive her for. cause i am such a bitch with easily-hurt feelings, and everything and anything has conspired to make my therapy difficult for the past 4 decades. gb and bb sit on the top of knowledge mountain about pt, and it brings up one of my feelings, what the f is this shit? interesting beyond belief.
Unfortunately, i had a dog that we rescued after she was hit by some car, and we kept her in the early days of our marriage. and we kept moving from place to place, then z’s dad died and that put the first set of coffin nails into our marriage, and the drugs and the drinking got bad,and i got careless and let the dog maggie roam the neighborhood freely and one day she was gone, and i never found her, and she had already had puppies, which was a major problem, so we gave them away to some suspicious person who probably sold them to a research group, and i feel horrible how careless i was with this dog, and so i cant listen much to maggie may rod stewart because it always brings up into my consciousness this horrible thing i did of not taking care of that poor dog. Remorse does not even cover how bad i feel about this, and my carelessness continues on to this day.
Jack, fuck the millenials. ah shouldnt say that since my kids are millenials, i just hate their fancy little beards. and gen-something goatees. and the freedom they have with sex. me-bitch. Patrick, as i was having a short discussion with some b whose opinion i respect, where the hell do they come up with these horrible presidential candidates, time after time? trump,hillary…frankly, even obama was a disappointment, as some astute black comedians have said that. bill clinton? his blow jobs are just a cover for his bad presidency. lies lies lies. stupidity as bad as nixon? as bad as gw? who knows. if we are lucky, we can stay beneath the radar and live our lives. not so all the other countries we touch.
lies. lies AND money.
Otto – you make some interesting points there. Reminds me a bit of this guy who I really like. He was raised Jewish in England but seems to have abandoned all that and now lives in Cambodia a kind of modern hippy. But one of his main points is we for millenia were raised in ‘tribes’ where we know our neighbors, we intermarried within the tribe etc etc. and how all that is gone from the Western way of life and how we seem determined to wipe it out wherever we find it. He sees all these wars and bombing in the Middle East as being part of that. I see that here in Ireland it was true here I mean the tribal thing but it is all going away here also of course. Ireland now I see as a strange mix of ‘indigenous’ (tribal) way of living and then also the modern alienated English type influence. And it can make for quite a lot of confusion like in my own case I end up not belonging in either way. So even longing for the old ways just becomes nostalgia but at the same time in the interest of truth it seem worth recoginising we have lost so much. I mean the comfort and security of tribes. Then our choices are limited and getting smaller even the sort of idea of ‘therapy’ is heavily accented towards ‘individual’ solutions which in many ways and cases just INCREASES the alienation and in that we are still pursuing substitutes and in a way we are even unlikely to find. Some may convince themselves they have but from what I see a lot of that just seems self serving boasting and if you scratch the surface of these people what you see in not so good. Mostly all ‘ideology’ and no real substance to it. Anyway I thought you might find this guy interesting and to reassure people he says next to nothing here about Jews just in passing only and sees the Jewish project itself as a form of nostalgia for tribes (but a form that hurts a lot of other people in the process) but his point is bigger than that. Basically he sees us getting worse and worse more alienation and estrangement and he admits it is difficult to see how it might get better. But I feel at least he starts as you might say from the beginning so if his ‘diagnosis’ is correct that’s at least a good start. I like also what he says about Trump in spite of what some spinners (liars)here say I am no “Trump fan” I just think Hillary is a disaster waiting to happen including to herself which might ‘save’ us for a while longer………..
You ALL make some interesting intellectual points, but do any of you ‘high minded’ males actually feel? You know, what the therapy/theory is all about…
Erron,
You’re right, We should get back to feeling bad feelings. Enough with this good discussion.
And what about you?
It’s about ALL feelings, good & bad. Sorry, just me: intellectual stuff has been the bulk of my adult workday existence, and it’s not what I come here for, personally.
Erron: Yes, it’s all feelings as I see it. I personally don’t need a blog to express them; I can cry and did last night about some things. BUT I seem not to have the need to write about them here … for the most part, but then every now and again.
Once the process got started for me, there was no holding back; yet I suppose I am one of the culprits to be hissing on about intellectual stuff too.
Jack
> Patrick,
> my finger seems to have touched a very sore spot there.
> it is ironical you tell me to mind my own business while you feel free to attack and offend anyone around.
> just another example of your double standards.
> oh well,
> I guess some of the frustration about my dad gets triggered as well occasionally.
> unreachable is a word that comes to mind.
> M
> just heard a shocking news item.
> in a nursing home near Brussels a group of six male nurses were fired because they took embarassing pictures of several residents with dementia.
> it is extremely distressing for the family members of those people, who trusted the caretakers.
> humans are such a mix of a capacity for empathy and caring, and the complete opposite of that.
> i hate to imagine how I would feel if someone did that to my own mother, I would be enraged.
> M
Gretch, the site has started crashing..again I think when it reaches approaching 1000 responses my iPad doesn’t like it. It would timely to have not just a new page but a new article of yours or Barry’s to reflect on!
Otto,
You touched on an interesting general question on which I often ponder (Barry may call it rumination, of course) People raising kids: are they really getting anything our of life with the crazy schedules people have these days? Even kids have packed schedules with school and sports, etc, etc. I have often wondered if childhood these days is too structured and scheduled, never mind the parents, The kids need to start building their resumes for college when they are about 8, for crying out loud.
Unstructured time for kids seems to be a thing of the past…..I remember my parents would make us go outdoors and play. We had to seek out other kids and make our own entertainment: exploring, climbing trees, etc.
Of course, I realize parents cannot leave their children to roam free anymore. I read recently about a parent getting into trouble for letting her child go alone to the park.
Anyway, the current cohort of kids will need everything in their adult lives structured. I see that to some extent with milennials: less ability to be self sufficient, needing me outside person or group to structure their activities.
On that point, like you I also dislike what I would call the milennial craft-beer beard: seems that all guys in their mid twenties have them these days. Usually the ones who server craft beer or iced mochachinos. Speaking of which whatever happened to hot coffee……I now get stuck in line waiting for my coffee in the morning behind milennials ordering their fancy iced drinks which take about 10 minutes each to prepare. How about an express line for Gen-exers and Baby boomers who just want a cup of the house blend with cream. Cream in large cannisters too, not those little containers that you need to use 10 of to get creamy coffee.
I am ranting at this point, but these are the things that annoy me.
Donal
This is just a test. WordPress didn’t seem to want to publish my last admittedly very long post, so I might have to break it up.
Even though the last year has not been good for me with multiple health issues, financial insecurity and female rejection, I feel I have made a lot of progress. The beauty of the primal process is that I have been able to “use” bad experiences to get more in touch with myself, and I know the more in touch with myself I get the more in touch with others I can be. And as quality of life equals quality of relationships for the most part, things have to get better. So even when I’ve been going backwards I’ve been going forwards. One of the areas I feel I’ve made significant progress in is understanding how my health issues with chronic fatigue syndrome have connected with past traumatic experiences.
A couple of days ago I was reading through one of my journals and I came across a dream I had about a year ago that mystified me at the time. In the dream I was standing in a field looking at a large gorilla that was standing some distance away from me. As I’m watching it it sees me and starts to come towards me at speed. I panic and look around me amongst the remains of a picnic strewn around the ground. I’m desperate to find a glass bottle I can use as a weapon, but there isn’t one. The gorilla bares down on me and changes into a heavy feeling of fatigue in the back of my head as I wake up scared. It felt to me like the gorilla was somehow CFS personified (or animalised?), but I didn’t understand the connection between my health issues and a gorilla. When I read this over the other day I felt instantly that the gorilla was my father and the attack was symbolic of him raping me. Something which I discovered 6 months ago that he did to me. His body was very hairy, a fact that feel I disgust at mentioning. Considering what I was able to know and handle a year ago, I feel the dream was my mind-body (or perhaps my super-conscious?) doing the very best it could to tell me about the connection between my past and my health issues.
This connection between CFS and old trauma is something I’m seeing evidence for in recent scientific studies. A friend of mine a few days ago sent me an article about a recent breakthrough study: http://www.healthrising.org/blog/2016/09/01/metabolomics-naviaux-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-core-problem/ The article is quite technical, but the gist of it focuses on the activity of mitochondria in the cell. Mitochondria are like the battery or power pack of the cell, but another main function is as a first line of defence. The mitochondria are the first “organelle” (the article’s word) to detect any kind of external danger and the first to respond to it. But it can’t be in both energy production mode and defence mode at the same time. In CFS patients there is a kind of “throttling back” of mitochondria activity producing a physical state the authors of the study compare to that a type of worm called a dauer can enter to protect itself when in an an extremely hostile environment. It was likened to hibernation. When a British newspaper ran a story on the study, they seized on this word “hibernation” and used it in it’s headline: “Scientists find signature of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in blood which suggests disease is the body going into hibernation”. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/30/scientists-find-signature-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-in-blood-w/
I posted a new page – Gretch
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Asperheim: Not sure what or to whom you are addressing this comment. If it’s to Gretchen then please ignore my response.
Jack