Page 3 Cure by Jack Waddington

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813 Responses to Page 3 Cure by Jack Waddington

  1. David says:

    Another test…

  2. David says:

    OK I fucking give up!!!!!! I haven’t said everything I wanted to say and it has taken me longer to try and post my comment than it took to write it. I tried copying and pasting it in from a Word document and my posts are not showing up. I will try again later…

    • David says:

      Oh joy it actually made it…!

      • David: Wow what a great posting and an encouraging post about how all this therapy works. The thought of your dad doing that to you, and others that have also expressed similar encounters, drives me wild with rage, anger and frustration.

        I sure suffered ‘sex addiction, BUT, never to the extent of wanting sex with anyone under the age of 18 and certainly not against anyone’s will. The problem is the unutterable trauma that must have been inflicted on your dad, and others that then act it out in such a manner on children..

        Where to start to rectify any of this … boggles my mind. I am not sure I have any answers or that anyone out there has any either … to prevent it, that is.

        Meantime, I admire you for posting this, what must be a very painful revalation to what took place with you at such a tender age.


        • David says:


          Thanks for your comments! Yes, I’ve said before that without this process, which I had a breakthrough in around 8 years ago, I would probably be dead or in jail. I don’t know about abuse inflicted on my father. I couldn’t stand my grandfather (his father) who seemed to hate children. Growing up I found it much easier to see him as he was than I could with my own father.

          Yes, it’s a extremely painful thing to have uncovered. A friend of mine remarked that I must have a very strong life force to survive through that and other traumas in my childhood, and another person said they saw that in me too. I remember going to a talk Janov gave at his Center where he said: “Well, of course therapy is going to much harder if you had one of the 4 major traumas than if you just had the regular mind fuck” And he listed those as birth, incest, adoption and boarding school. I’ve felt despairing at times reflecting on this as I didn’t just have one of the “major traumas” but all four! I guess I must have a strong life force or something going for me.

          Did you find out what was driving your sex addiction?

          • David: Not a full blown revelation, just to know that it was a great pain killer and had been from my early teens right up to my mid seventies when my whole sex drive just evaporated. Seemingly mysteriously … yet knew, actually just expressing my feelings, bit by bit as they arose helped me on many levels.

            I am aware that I needed my daddy even though I did have a mommy and a granny … but as a child I needed that daddy and perhaps the whole of my homosexuality and sex addiction revolves around all the needs a child requires for both … else damage sets in.

            I see Primal therapy as an ongoing process. There is no end game … other than death and that I am not quite ready for it yet!!!!. I’ll let the blog know if and when I do know that my demise is imminent … and best I can express what it feels like. Not that mine would be like all others, but to give others a sense of it.


  3. Jo says:

    Thank you Gretch 🙂

  4. Phil says:

    That’s good news about finding specific abnormalities with CFS. I hope they are on to something with that and can better define what exactly goes wrong in the condition. Maybe it will lead to some treatments, but the best ones might turn out to be those focused on the whole person, and not mitochondria.

    • David says:


      I agree that a more holistic approach is needed, taking in nutrition, exercise, therapy. Having said that there was a treatment that seemed to help me some years ago that somehow targeted the mitochodria. I remember the Dr I saw discussing the theory of it with me, and it was using low doses of the drug Naltraxone, which in higher doses is used in drug addiction treatment. Unfortunately this Dr’s clinic closed down, but the Health Rising article has inspired me to track down an alternate source online, and hopefully that can help me again.

  5. Margaret says:


  6. David says:

    continued from page 2 I hope.

    When I saw this in the article it felt completely wrong to talk about hibernation. Hibernation is something natural and instinctive, and there is nothing natural and instinctive about CFS. And in any case, human beings don’t hibernate. What I’m convinced the scientists in this study are seeing is not hibernation but the effects of shock. As a result of the abuse, neglect and abandonment in my childhood I have been in a frozen state of shock since that time, though slowly healing through therapy. What I saw as character flaws of laziness and inertia were really the effects of shock. In another 2009 study 62% of CFS patients reported being the survivors of childhood traumas. (At this point I had a link to the study, but I’ve left it out in case it was somehow causing the posting problems). I bet a significant percent of the remaining 38% will be equally damaged but with no memory of their trauma. All this research is validating, though it’s also part of me trying to make sense of what has happened to my life. Maybe my father raping me is just an insanity that can’t be made sense of or understood.

    My energy levels have been slowly improving and in the last couple of months I shot a wedding and took on three of my old guitar students, all of which has felt good. Next weekend is the closest thing to a retreat I can get to. It’s a three day creative, community camp which will have a sauna, possibly a family constellations workshop, drumming workshops and 5Rhythms classes. I’ve been to it before and there will be quite a few familiar faces and a lot of very nice people generally. I think I should go even it it means spending half my time lying in my tent. I’ve been been too isolated. I hope I can make it.

    • Phil says:

      That’s great how they’ve been able to link CFS to childhood trauma. It’s been a baffling condition; I have a cousin who has struggled with it as well. Those seem to be pretty clear cut results. Maybe there’s no need to consider other causes, at least in your case, in light of what you’ve uncovered.

      • David says:

        I believe in my case the main factor is childhood trauma. Feeling feelings about the abuse from father has lessened the fatigue noticeably. But… like with depression and anxiety, it keeps coming back. There may have been some other complicating factors that screwed up my immune system. I took a large amount of anti-biotics about a year before I first got sick and was also addicted for 6 months to the anti-anxiety drug ativan which did produce CFS like symptoms. But that was years and years ago. The results of Adrenal Stress Profiling I had done earlier in the year have shown that stress (pain and fear), indictated by high levels of cortisol, are a significant factor in my health issues.

        • Phil says:

          I saw the article on the CFS link with childhood trauma. I see that it’s a little old, from 2009 and there may have been more work since then. It would or should be big news if there was more awareness that there is effective treatment for childhood traumas.
          It’s no wonder you have that condition. You are off the charts having all 4 experiences that Janov refers to, but you have done very well, looking at it that way.

    • Larry says:

      In reading health articles I’ve recently noticed the cause of auto-immune disorders and cancer being attributed to failing mitochondria. I wonder though whether failing mitochondria are a symptom, not a cause. I’ve been doing many things to try to overcome the auto-immune disorder that I was diagnosed with a little over a year ago. Since Spring I’ve dramatically improved and have been well on a road to recovery. I attribute my sudden improvement to the additional anti-inflammatory I was prescribed at the time, but recovery could also be due a Naturopath recommended supplement to kill off low grade hidden infection I started taking at the time, or to creatine I started taking to feed ATP (energy carrying) molecules to my mitochondria to reverse my muscle decline, or to switching to a Naturopath recommended Paleo Autoimmune Diet, or to feeling out deeper, broader more all-of-my-life encompassing pains about having no one and being alone.

      I don’t write about it here all the time, but I continue to several times weekly succumb to ever deeper crying about being alone now and through childhood. Just thinking about writing it here yesterday was enough to release and cry the feeling, which ultimately released me. The upside of crying out and resolving the pains of loss and aloneness is that I’m not so desperately afraid to be alone and am more comfortable alone or with people. Last weekend was a long weekend here, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, during which I was with people or a friend each day and enjoyed it.

      Patrick recently criticized Primal Therapy for being too individualistic when what the world needs is more community. My reply is that of course primal therapy focuses on the individual, since it is the individual who is seeking healing, but the therapists prompt the individual to heal through socializing and being part of community, which Patrick has said when he was urged to at the start of his therapy he resisted and resists. On a final note, as I progress through therapy I’m more and more able to participate in community and society.

      • Phil says:

        It’s great to hear you’re going deeper with crying and also on the road to recovery with the autoimmune condition. You have written much lately, I’m glad you’re back.

      • David says:

        Larry, thanks for your comment and it’s great to hear that your health has improved so much.

      • Patrick says:

        Larry – I guess what I am trying to say is “blood is thicker than water” or at least it used to be. Though we may be going into a time where even that is not true…………..scary…….

        • Larry says:

          Well Patrick, we have no choice about the family we are born to, but we choose our friends. Friends might know you better than family. Friends might stand by you in ways that family might not. Honestly Patrick, and seriously, I think that most of the time you don’t know what you are saying nor why.

  7. David says:

    I tried posting the link to the CFS/ childhood trauma study separately and it wouldn’t post, so that was the problem. To find it Google “CFS Linked to Childhood Trauma” and it’s at the top of the page.

  8. John Z. says:

    A loving, merciful God would have provided us with a “Reset” button.

    • John Z: Yeah! if one existed … but I think from the evidence we already have him/her/it, is a figment of a neurotic imagination.


    • David says:


      A reset button would be nice! One of the best helps for me in therapy has been Neale Donald Walsch’s series of books “Conversations with God” where the author claims to have had a dialogue with God over the course of 8 books. Because of my strict Catholic upbringing, I’d seen these books in bookstores and ignored them because of the “G” word. Cut a long story short, I did get round to reading them and they’ve helped me to feel more than any other resource outside of formal therapy. I felt I resonated so strongly with the material it was like hearing back something I already knew deep inside, like someone reciting back to me something inscribed in my DNA. It got to the point where if I was depressed, I could open “Friendship with God” randomly at any page, read a few lines and it would help me to cry deeply. So, in the first book, Walsch asks “God”, if suffering is so offensive to you why don’t you just get rid of it? And he/she/it’s reply is: “I have already gotten rid of it. But you have chosen not to use the tools I’ve given you.” I suspect he was talking about our ability to cry.

      • John Z. says:

        Thank you for your comprehensive reply.
        What prompted my recent remark, is the sometime feeling “starting over would be such a relief”. Over the decades since beginning Primal Therapy back in the early 1990’s, have used the crying tool and have periodically, incorrectly (hopelessly) thought I had cried out the pain after what seemed like endless hours/days. The relief could be long lasting, but then the pain is again triggered by an event/thought. When this happens, the crying begins again (not for days anymore, thankfully) but can’t help but wonder after all these years, “is there no end to this?”
        So, the yearning for a “reset” button.
        Meanwhile, found additional help in SUPER BRAIN, authored by Deepak Chopra, M.D. and Rudolph E.Tanzi, Ph.D. Will take a look at your recommendation.

        • John Z: Sorry if I’m intruding; but to answer your question as I see it:- ” can’t help but wonder after all these years, “is there no end to this?”” No there is no end to it; once we delve into expressing to feelings of yore It goes on for the rest of our lives, as I see it.

          It become less of a problem … but never goes away and as of the way I feel now, I would not want it to.


          • John Z. says:


            No, you are not intruding, always good to hear from you. Agree with you. At our age, should know how this phase ends ere long. If there is an end, that is.

      • Erron says:

        Wow, amazing how writing can work out our inmost issues, isn’t it? Interesting, thanks…

  9. Phil says:

    My high school class reunion is taking place this weekend. I’m not going, I never really seriously entertained going. I’ve never gone to any and maybe have only ever seen 2 or 3 classmates ever in all the years since graduation. It does bring up some feelings though. I look at the list of people going and don’t remember 99% of them. It should be different, is what the feeling is. I should remember many of those people and should want to go to that event.
    But I never liked high school and had a bad experience with it. “High School Musical” has no appeal for me. It would have to be a satire of some kind to hold any attraction for me.
    I’m having an OK weekend and don’t need to go to that event, but the feeling is about missing out. I missed out on a lot back then.

    • Larry says:

      Ah, I get it why you don’t want to go, but I wish you went for your sake.

      • Phil says:

        Larry, Well I just couldn’t imagine that as a good experience because although I was a graduate, I couldn’t go to a reunion not remembering anyone. And that’s because I never knew them to begin with, not because I’ve forgotten. I just wasn’t there in many ways.

        • Erron says:

          Yep, I feel the same way about a Teacher’s College reunion that is coming up. Just not my sort of people, is how I felt/feel, or is that a copout?

  10. Larry says:

    To Donal and anyone else who is dismayed that kids’ time these days is too structured, Alison Gopnick, a professor of psychology and a parent, agrees in her recent book “The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children”.

    Reviews about the book:

    “Caring deeply about our children is part of what makes us human. Yet the thing we call “parenting” is a surprisingly new invention. In the past thirty years, the concept of parenting and the multibillion dollar industry surrounding it have transformed child care into obsessive, controlling, and goal-oriented labor intended to create a particular kind of child and therefore a particular kind of adult. In The Gardener and the Carpenter, the pioneering developmental psychologist and philosopher Alison Gopnik argues that the familiar twenty-first-century picture of parents and children is profoundly wrong–it’s not just based on bad science, it’s bad for kids and parents, too.

    Drawing on the study of human evolution and her own cutting-edge scientific research into how children learn, Gopnik shows that although caring for children is profoundly important, it is not a matter of shaping them to turn out a particular way. Children are designed to be messy and unpredictable, playful and imaginative, and to be very different both from their parents and from each other. The variability and flexibility of childhood lets them innovate, create, and survive in an unpredictable world. “Parenting” won’t make children learn―but caring parents let children learn by creating a secure, loving environment.”


    “What a relief to find a book that takes a stand against the practice of helicopter parenting so prevalent today . . . [The Gardener and the Carpenter] not only dispels the myth of a single best model for good parenting but also backs up its proposals with real-life examples and research studies . . . This book will provide helpful inspiration for parents and may prompt some to rethink their strategies. “Publishers Weekly”.


    “[“The Gardener and the Carpenter”] calls into question the modern notion that good parents can mold their children into successful adults . . . Gopnik writes with an approachable style and straightforward language . . . One of the most profound observations comes when Gopnik struggles, as many parents and grandparents do, with children using smartphones and other screen-based technologies . . . Children are not supposed to become like their parents; they learn from them to create something new. Each generation is different from the ones before. And that, Gopnik suggests, is the whole point of being human.” Courtney Humphries, “The Boston Globe”

  11. Otto Codingian says:

    from here to eternity. nice and sad. reminds me a little of the camaraderie i had in the navy with my fellow sailor buddies.unfortunately i was a drunk and druggie, which destroyed any chance of happiness and which followed me after i was discharged, and which destroyed any happiness in my marriage. cried today about those years and the misery of those years, which multiplied horribly when my wife’s dad died. i would say my treatment of her was horrendous and anything she has done to me pales in comparison. whatever. cant turn back time, cant move forward too much. too many years of adult pain compounded with child pain. damn.

    • Erron says:

      When were you in the Navy, Otto? Janov claims his navl experience in WW2 was a great thing for him personally.

      • Patrick says:

        BTW so as not be coy or anything the book to find out all about what this guy Andrew Johnson is talking about is “Where did the Towers go?” by Dr Judy Wood. I do believe she has truly cracked WHAT happened on 9/11/2001 and from there is a chance to crack WHO did it and WHY? But before the ‘what’ is understood I think the other questions are premature. I can’t think of a better present to give someone or just yourself on this anniversary of the event. It is a truly enlightening book and Leslie or Daniel it has nothing at all to do with ‘mental illness’ quite the opposite imo

      • Quote:- “don’t ban me please please…………..”

        So why do you write things that are more than likely to be deleted ?????????


  12. Otto Codingian says:

    Here is what i can say about high school. i asked one teacher why in the pearl buck china movie, why the wife (actress) was good-looking, while in the book it described her as plain. i dont remember the answer and there was not much discussion, i guess. i wondered why the books always seemed different from the movies. the teacher could have pointed me in the right direction, found me someone to talk to about my desire to make films, but she didn’t. no problem. i was always looking for an answer, or direction. i wandered the streets without any direction from adults. i attempted to make films for years and i just never got the right answers. another teacher, a humanities man, made wine sound so attractive. possibly leading me to drink wine alone in my garage bedroom. well what am i saying here? not much, just thoughts that occurred to me as i sit in the early evening, late summer, nice weather, backyard, trying to keep the cat from jumping the fence. we take him to vet tomorrow to get his monster dogbite stitches out.

  13. Otto Codingian says:

    donal, i think it was you who had the coffee peeve but i am not navigating back to page 2. my peeve is the guys and ladies who stand at the milk and sugar stand, slowly stirring their cream and sugar for minutes at a time, keeping me for an eternity when all i want to do is grab some coffee and some cuplets of cream and a lid and go. i must be missing some big thrill, but all i want to do is get my coffee and go to work and read yahoo tragedies and what not. also where i work, it is a chaotic hallway with patients gimping along slowly and certain persons who just stop and have conversations in the middle of the hall, standing in the way of me getting coffee. i love it. this kind of stuff makes life worth living. i get to mutter under my breath all the time and feel good doing it.

  14. Patrick says:

    Speaking of ‘lies lies lies’ (you don’t know love)there is some kind of big hit song on the radio a lot here…………..anyway it strangly fits at least in my mind…………….

  15. Good question Jack…. Patrick it seems so compulsive. We all know your views. Why the need to keep repeating ? It seems like you can’t help yourself. What is that? G.

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – it seems we do not know what Jack said either that seems to be erased also. Gretchen this is really bullshit………..we know for example what Jack ‘thinks’ also abolish money and glorify Janov no matter what is that a reason to ‘eraze’ him no of course not. This is supposed to be a place a person can voice and for however LONG THEY NEED whatever they are thinking or feeling. So your ‘logic’ there does not work at all and actually reveals you typical bias and super conventional thinking.

      One thing I would like to say about that 9/11 video I put on there people could actually learn so much from that certainly more than all the ‘stories’ in the NY Times or whatever I really DO ‘study’ these things . People here have all their own unique talents and interests and this is something I bring you might say a ‘talent’ of mine (think talent night!) and you eraze it. That is super insult and super unfair. I don’t know what Jack said but since when is ‘compulsive’ a reason to deny anyone? We are all ‘compulsive’ here including yourself for God’s sake stop relying on these bogus ;’psych’ type words

      I have my problems of course we all do……………but I believe I DO bring some worthwhile things here and you just throw it all away. To repeat to be ‘compulsive’ loll that is such an insult maybe the ‘final’ insult you might say. Gretchen you should be ‘careful’ though in my opinion if you take it upon yourself to so casually throw someone away well I am now thinking what I can do. Let’s put it this way people in glass houses should not be throwing stones like you do and you DO live in a ‘glass house’

      • Patrick says:

        Another thing that occurs to me Grechen why the f… would you erase a simple statement that the 9/11 thing I posted was based on a book called “Where did the Towers go?” by Dr Judy Wood. What are you playing at!!??!!. So I am giving the information again there is NOTHING about Zionism in it either it is puerly a WHAT actually happend not ‘who’ did or ‘why’ though I have my suspicions

        Are we not meant to think about any of this stuff, rely on the papers and we are here just to ‘do feelings’ How ridiculous is that and it is one of the reason primal has become so ‘useless’ it is off in some little ’boutique’ of it’s own mooching along and ‘trying’ to cry. What a way to live actually to not live. But my real issue is I think it is very wrong what you are doing plus this place would be a lot more interesing and even ‘feeling’ if you let people just have their say no matter how ‘uncomfortable’ it is for YOU. And maybe ask yourself WHY is it uncomfortable for you. As I said to you before if I found all millions of my people did not die by gassing I would be so happy I imagine I would cry with relief you don’t WHY? Why do you NEED this ‘belief’ a belief that just a cursory examination would show had huge credibility problems

  16. Margaret says:

    > Hi John!
    > nice to run into you here,
    > Margaret

  17. Phil says:

    After many months I met up with my friend “G” who I talked about here. He’s the guy with very severe problems with anxiety and other things. I felt bad and hadn’t cut him off completely.
    We have been maintaining a very low level of communications, just a few messages really.
    It was a very bad meeting for me. He is desperate and I could feel him trying to dump his problems on me and to make me feel responsible. He has been in and out of mental hospitals at least 10 times, I think, in the past year.
    He told me several times how he was tempted to go to a local dam and jump off to commit suicide. A place he has visited several times in the past with that intention.
    On certain occasions, over the phone, or in person he has been much more reasonable and enjoyable company. But yesterday he was in terrible shape. I had set a limit to the amount of time I was willing to spend, and had mentioned that. I alerted him towards the end of our get together that I would soon have to be leaving. He was desperate for me not to go. I had to just get up and walk to my car, in what felt liked a rude and abrupt manner. I felt so manipulated and could feel the ropes of how he was trying to keep me there stuck with his problems.
    This morning I was able to get to some feelings in relation to this. This guy is just so crazy I don’t want to deal him. The meeting left me with such a low down bad feeling. On my way home I had a blues CD playing in my car, a recent one I bought that I had happened to be listening to. The music really coincided with this very low down feeling.
    In the session this morning I connected it to a scene with my mother, with how she was so crazy. Going to visit her, she wouldn’t even talk to me or notice me, just really crazy. How I felt trapped there in her presence. The feeling, just let me out of here, I can’t take it, I have to go. Also, the feeling that I can’t help. There’s nothing I can do. My father not even noticing or doing anything about my terrible turmoil over all of this. I don’t think I connected my relations with G to this scene previously, certainly not in this way.
    A major scene that I have written about here before and comes up continually but a difference here is more awareness of my mother’s craziness. Maybe she doesn’t treat me that way out of intention, as usually occurs to me, but out of craziness. It’s not a big difference but I feel a little more clarity and did get some relief today. It’s maybe a harsher reality to realize how crazy she was. It;s a better understanding of what went on for me in that scene, because it was a big mix of feelings I experienced and have found it difficult to sort out. So, it feels like good progress.
    It was good in relation to my meeting with G that I was able to stick to my timetable and not be stuck there. Three hours after I got home and was going to bed he sent me a message that he was still at the fast food restaurant where we had met. Today he messaged me and wants to do it again, which I have refused. I won’t be willing to do it again any time soon. He also mentioned something about neighbors calling the police to go to his apartment because of the things he had said, and the possibility of his going again to the mental hospital a short distance away. His point being that he is so desperate, can I help him. No I can’t, there’s nothing I can do. I want to leave it that I am around and have not completely abandoned or dumped him, but not more than that.

    • Phil: I just read this comment of yours about your freind G. I began to think:- What would I do under such circumstances. I know this is easier said than done, but (rightly or wrongly) in some of the buddy seesions I have had, I suggest to the buddy, “just cry about your current situation”. Not saying that it always works, or that the even do cry … least-ways not in my presence.

      My best feelings about the book “Cure by Crying” is that it does take take away the possibilities of some of the anxieties that occur to us all. I feel the act of simply letting the tears just flow, is becoming a more acceptable thing for all of us to do from time to time instead of (especially we British with the notion of “stiff upper lip”)

      Of course I realize in hindsight, because of your post Phil, that if anything like that is to happen to me in the future I might just try suggesting that, that someone insisting that I do not leave … “why don’t you just cry about the fact I am going to leave you soon”. Just a thought that came to me after reading your post Phil. Hope you do not mind me refelcting here on it.


  18. Donal says:


    Yes, that was me, we are essentially complaining about the same thing: people dawdling and in the way when you just want to get your coffee and go. Here is what I said (the first part of the post was about kids having scheduled childhoods: Larry responded above my drawing my attention to a very interesting book on that subject, which I intend to read)

    “Anyway, the current cohort of kids will need everything in their adult lives structured. I see that to some extent with milennials: less ability to be self sufficient, needing me outside person or group to structure their activities.
    On that point, like you I also dislike what I would call the milennial craft-beer beard: seems that all guys in their mid twenties have them these days. Usually the ones who server craft beer or iced mochachinos. Speaking of which whatever happened to hot coffee……I now get stuck in line waiting for my coffee in the morning behind milennials ordering their fancy iced drinks which take about 10 minutes each to prepare. How about an express line for Gen-exers and Baby boomers who just want a cup of the house blend with cream. Cream in large cannisters too, not those little containers that you need to use 10 of to get creamy coffee.”

  19. Otto Codingian says:

    i watched most of the jungle book movie last night. a few scenes of monkeys swinging through the trees made me think. not sure what they made me think. maybe once our ancestor monkeys left the trees, they had to fine something to do with their strong hands and arms. then i saw some lady in line in the car lane at mcdonalds in front of my car. one of those probably non-caucasians, she was excitedly gesticulating her arms through her open window as she was discussing her order with the food techician. you know, is it itallian, spanish, latin that just do this, or mediterranean, or what. clues to the origins of man and language. do african blacks talk with their arms and hands.

  20. Otto Codingian says:

    a little before when my buddies, the village people, were.

  21. Otto Codingian says:

    i would give my left t to have the time to dawdle anymore. i can sit in the backyard and watch cat dog squirrels bugs, not sure if that is the same thing. hate it when z dawdles, she is a master of it, and i am pretty sure she enjoys life too. larry, did i give you enough information?

    • Phil says:

      I am about to go food shopping at the local supermarket. A complaint I have is going there and people are in the way. They stand right in front of stuff I want studying it for, it seems, 15 or 20 minutes. I encounter this all over the store. Some people seem to want to make shopping their main activity for the day, whereas I like to be in and out of there as soon as possible. Also, I have no patience for coupons and people taking an hour at the cash register pulling them out to save 5 cents on toilet paper or something.

    • Larry says:

      UUhhhhh….information about what, Otto.

  22. Phil says:

    My friend G is unable to cry and I haven’t been able to help him with that.
    About all I can do is to listen to him and make a few comments. The only use
    with that is he feels slightly better being around someone he has some level
    of comfort with. He lives alone and I think his days mostly revolve around setting
    up that kind of slight relief. It is very sad. He is on and has been on various kinds
    of medications which don’t help, and rejected for primal therapy, for the most part.

  23. Otto Codingian says:

    Patrick, i am glad you are listening to music. i am listening to music right now as i read this blog. i always appreciate reminders to get me to listen to music. thank golly humans did not lose the part of the brain that does music. thahks, thanks a lot. lordy mama.

  24. Otto Codingian says:

    Thanks, thanks a lot
    I got a broken heart that’s all I got
    You made me cry and I cried a lot
    I lost your love baby thanks a lot

  25. Otto Codingian says:

    If you wanna get to heaven, gotta D-I-E
    you gotta put on your coat and T-I-E
    Wanna get the rabbit out of the L-O-G
    You gotta make a cold motion like D-O-G
    Like D-O-G, like D-O-G, yeah.
    GREAT, I CAN FINALLY CRY AT HOME. or at least a few tears. my body wants to contract into itself and then explode. cant do that at home and it was not getting to that point yesterday in pi room. not much not enough. much much more to cry about z’s dad dying in 78 and the horrible sadness and craziness that went on for years. i want to push it down down down. more pain in adult hood than childhood. the plan is for z and monsterdog to move to ohio soon for 3 to 6 months. cant stand her, cant stand the way i have treated her and continue to treat her.

  26. Leslie says:

    Phil – so good to read how you handled yourself and your meeting with G. It takes so much to set those boundaries – but like a drowning victim he is not able to see your suffering and can easily drown you to keep himself afloat.
    ( I actually had that happen 1 summer in a lake where a young, much weaker child panicked and grabbed onto me – when I was almost a lifeguard – and she climbed up and on me while I struggled desperately to re-surface & breathe. All happened in seconds and ended well – but at the time it was so intense!)
    Your connections make such sense and will help enormously as you continue doing what you are.
    How horrible & confusing it must have been to go see a mom – in an institution – who couldn’t do any mothering…
    It is something knowing how much we need and love connections with others – but no matter what it is up to them to help/get help themselves. We can’t do it for them. I’m so often such a work in progress with that. And like you – want to be there having had so much time with no one there for me.
    Yes, definitely more for me to feel there too 🙂
    Also see how that shift about your mom’s craziness is so big – nothing you could do again – but actually feeling/integrating that is monumental.
    ox L

    • Phil says:

      You’re right, it is a significant shift for me, but I don’t want to necessarily repeat that experience to build on it.. I do like to be helpful but there has to be a limit with that.
      That sounds like a scary incident you had as an almost lifeguard.
      Thanks for your encouraging comments.:)

    • Larry says:

      Yes Phil, I’m relieved that you recognize there is a limit to being helpful and you did not let yourself become smothered in his need.

  27. Donal says:


    Yes, I also just want to get in and out when shopping: no patience for people blocking the aisles, Sometimes you seem to get like three generations of a family all grocery shopping together: blocking your way like one giant blob in the aisles.
    Cannot understand shopping as a hobby: boring and aggravating.
    I usually go a Tuesday night at 8:00PM or so: it its raining better still you have the whole store to yourself (best time to go the mall too).
    Coupons are such a waste of precious time: I just get the store card and buy the reasonably priced brands: life is way too short.

  28. Patrick says:

    I am repeating myself ‘compulsive’ me………..sometimes I think about something I wrote here I was thinking actually about something I wrote here a few days ago about the weather and then I think oops I think that was ‘erazed’ too (it was!) and again like this is fucking insult to me everything I write or have ever written is what ‘is on my mind’. That’s all I can say good bad or indifferent. It really makes me angry I think if someone hurts me like that how can I hurt them back. That it not really how I operate but I do have those thoughts…………Gretchen you should value ALL your ‘kids’ you don’t like the way my thoughts go no reason to do your ‘censor’ bit. You are wrong on this very very wrong…….

    • Patrick says:

      To be clear Gretchen when I say ‘hurt back’ I am NOT thinking or ‘threatening’ anything of any kind of violent nature, I cannot be too careful here I know how this kind of thing can go especially dealing with people with an ability to ‘twist’ things around I am just thinking more like legally and financially probably something that would worry you more anyway…………

  29. Patrick says:

    So my ‘prediction’ of Hillary Clinton falling apart is coming true. Nothing would surprise me about that shambles like a said a ‘hoax candidate’ but I wonder a bit too. WHY would all these corrupt and powerful people WANT her in and of course they know about her problems. So they ‘expect’ her to fall apart do they want Trump to win then? Kind of rabbit hole that one but Hillary Clinton is finished I doubt she will make it through the debates let alone the election. So weird what a weird world we live in now. Obama must have known all this and her husband too yet they push her forward. It also for me hightligths the kind of absurd way we live grasping for money and power and really a few breaths away from death. The Pharoes for example had much more wisdom and a much longer view ours is very short indeed. It’s hard not to see that the human race is just getting worse and worse and no amount of ‘human rights’ or ‘gay rights’ or any kind of ‘rights’ can disguise that fact. Gretchen I wonder if you will find that comment ‘homophobic’ or ‘racist’ or something and EVEN IF IT WAS you have no business ‘erasing’ it. I am sure George Orwell talked about this just making things ‘disappear’ well you may try but I am not so easily stopped

  30. Patrick says:

    I am not usually totally on board with Alex Joans still I think this is a good one and ties into funnily enough to my gripes about ‘censorship’ or ‘taking things down’. It seems this video of Hillary falling on 9/11 HAS been taken down a lot just like Gretchen takes my stuff down. Changes nothing just shows people have something to hide

  31. Patrick says:

    I find it ironic also and I have really just ‘heard this I don’t know for a fact but that Barry B has been very very interested in JFK’s murder. Ok so what I think that’s of course fine I am also. But you would never really know that that kind of stuff is not ‘feeling’ enough and I think this is one of the lamest distinctions there is. To any and all things can be of interest and are ‘feeling’ by the very definition of being alive. I have changed my mind about a lot of things over the last few years and I think ‘mental change’ also reflects deeper changes but we can more easily talk about them on a kind of mental level. But here we have this kind of lame distinction and supported and enforced by Jack above all who at the same time brags how he ‘thinks’ long and hard about things. If I ‘think’ at all it is called being ‘in my head. and all of this just seems symptomatic of double standards and hypocricy. I mean there HAS to be some explanation of the ‘weak’ results we have seen from primal patients over many many years now. Do they want reform? No it seems to me most of them are too discouraged to even want that and the therapists such as they are I don’t know is it just some kind of early retirement for them. If nothing else some of the stuff I have been talking about is a CHANGE, does anyone here want that no it seems not. Bolster and repeat the eternal verities of primal that’s what this is supposed to be. That does not work for me at all.

  32. I think Tim has already said it. It’s Gretchen’s blog, and she can do with it whatever she likes

    Anyone that does not like it, is free to go elsewhere … Unless they have no-where else to go. 😦 .


  33. Sylvia says:

    Hi all. Just wanted to say that I think ‘mental’ changes, how we think about things, people, etc. comes from what ‘feeling’ episodes we have ( or don’t have if we are still trapped by the past.) I don’t believe thinking about things or thinking in general is anti-feeling, but rather an outgrowth of feeling. Some of our thinking will change because of the freedom we have now after feeling the bad stuff, so we can see more clearly.
    I guess that is what is meant by plasticity of the brain–when you can feel your unlove from the past and can finally love in the present. But you can’t will or think yourself to love.
    You can have purely intellectual interests and they might be more enjoyable if you are no longer depressed or scatter-brained once having felt your bad feelings. You can direct your energy toward the topic better, at least that is what I’ve found.
    But what I like best about having felt ‘old stuff’ is that I can care about friends more.

  34. Phil says:

    Today I was able to cry about some stuff not before possible. Visiting or going to get my brother at the mental hospital for a weekend home visit. He was psychotic after he reached age 17 or 18.
    An awful thing to see happen.
    Similar to visiting my mother in earlier years in that they were in terrible places. And remembering my brother when we were younger and played together. Things not newly remembered, just being able to connect with how sad that all is.. Also remembering an exciting family moment when we got pets, and then to contrast that with the things which happened a few years later.

  35. Patrick, For the record I do in fact consider your comments a threat. Very much so. I am surprised you would think that threats would be the best way to either reach me or have an impact on me. I also suggest you go back and re-read what you posted. It was not a simple article about 911 nor were the implications in what you posted about the weather lost on me or others. You have also discussed these subjects before so we all get it. That said this is exactly the outcome you wanted. In my opinion you get something from posting these things, having them removed and then crying victim. One second you are saying you are sad to leave the blog and the next you are once again doing what you have been asked not to do. I think that is worth examining. I am not conspiring to get you to leave I simply have asked that you keep your racist, homophobic and anti Semitic views to yourself or write them elsewhere. You like to believe others are trying to control your views . You are free to think whatever you choose to and you have been given complete freedom here to say what you think for a very long time. But on this particular subject it is enough. The difference between the things others repeat and what you are repeating is the rage and cruelty behind your comments. You say you do not know what you have done…. I believe that to some degree, mainly because you seem at times to have very little insight about yourself. You might very well think you are discussing an interesting topic in history. But what everyone else is seeing is rage, insults, ignorance and prejudice . Why would a person continue posting these things despite being asked multiple times to stop? You have been told you can speak of other things ….but you can’t, it is impossible for you. Don’t you wonder why that is? I personally think it is not us you are trying to convince but yourself. Parallel to that is your compulsion to make yourself an outcast . When you finally accomplished your task and I have no choice but to say that I have had enough of the hate talk you are then completely perplexed! Additionally you have no ability to see that you can’t tolerate for one second anyone disagreeing with you. Your way of dealing with that is to insult, bully and now threaten and then start again trying to convince us and yourself that your viewpoint makes sense. It is truly a compulsion. This is what you wanted, what you set up and yet you have no insight about that at all. A good example of the way in which you deal with things was your approach to your friend Tim. You declare him a great guy that is until until he says his own opinion. If he dares to speak his own mind the insults will begin. You see yourself as a free thinker but I disagree, a true free thinker has the ability to accept the opinions of others. On top of that no one is looking for a guru more than you. The point is Patrick this is about hatred, it’s not about me or Daniel or anyone else here. You say you don’t hate Jews. Well if that is true then you really have a problem. For someone who doesn’t hate Jews you have certainly made some of the most ugly, vicious and nasty comments I have ever heard. . There is a very ugly side to you that you continue to assault others with and if you had any ability to see that I think it would horrify you. You are paranoid about multiple issues and I have to assume it is a nightmare to be you with all the fears you seem to carry around looking to attach to some place or another. You are a feeling searching for a conspiracy. I can’t imagine that you have not acted this out multiple times in your life. Isn’t it time to stop? Gretchen

  36. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > I hope you can let it in these words of Gretchen are not hostile, but actually contain genuine care.
    > if there would be no care or concern about you you would be kicked off the blog long ago.
    > I truely hope you can take some time to reflex calmly on what you feel inside, on what your drives might be, even just for the sake of curiosity, momentarily put aside your rational thoughts about your factual issues in the present and the subjects you focus on.
    > I hope you can have a look at the larger picture of your feelings, needs and hurt, and where your anger and frustration might really have its roots in.
    > noone here wants to wish you anything bad, on the contrary, most of us have tried to help you in the past many times.
    > so please take your time and reflect on the emotional side of al of this, regardless of any theoretical issues, they are secondary really.
    > Margaret

  37. My feeling about Patrick is one I have held for some years, going back to before he came onto this blog. I worked for and with him for over 25 years, and felt in that time I knew him reasonably well.

    He is first and foremost a very talented salesman. Secondly he had the drive to work 17 hours a day to make his company successful … and succeeded. Thirdly he had a talent for choosing the right people to work for him. However, he was and remains IMO a very linear thinker. The very opposite to being reflexive; either upon himself or even in his drive to succeed. In the business this was a major asset. However, in terms of this therapy, or even his indulgence on this Primal Institute blog; I feel does and did not serve him.

    He thinks, and I feel, he feels everyone thinks in the same manner. It is for this reason that asking him to be reflexive is not a part of who he is, and as such is a forlorn task to ask of him.

    I am not attempting to be critical of anyone’s comment/s trying to help him. I just feel it a forlorn task. What anyone should do about this I do not know. I will leave it up to those who run this blog.


    • Erron says:

      “He is first and foremost a very talented salesman. Secondly he had the drive to work 17 hours a day to make his company successful … and succeeded.”

      – hmm, beginning to see the problem…

    • Patrick says:

      I think you mean ‘reflective’ not ‘reflexive’ not that it makes much difference the ‘standards’ here are pretty low so you can ‘pass’ in that kind of environment. Close enough for government work or your ‘books’

  38. Donal says:

    I responded to one of you posts on Sunday (about grocery shopping) but only later read the posts about your friend G which were more important, and what you posted about your brother.
    Do I follow correctly in that dealing with G is bringing up these memories about your brother and, perhaps, memories of your mother from earlier in your child hood?

  39. Phil says:

    The meeting with G brought up a lot of feelings, he really triggered me with how desperate, crazy, and manipulative he is. It pushed me into some feelings about my mother, and what was especially significant was a new insight on how she was actually crazy too. Being around her on a visit would have me feeling trapped. Quite similar to being around G. Like, I just want to get away, I can’t take anymore.
    The memories about my brother emerged yesterday as I was doing some crying on general sadness having to do with my childhood. This surprised me and it was really good to have this happen as it was the first time. I think it’s just because I was ready for it.
    Interacting with G is often not at all pleasant, to say the least. His desperation and craziness remind of terrible things from my childhood. I really don’t need that. I have not been responding to any of his calls the last few days. They would only be about begging to get together again.
    But what I cried about with my brother was a good memory in contrast to bad ones later on when he became psychotic, and has been ever since, unable to have a life at all. There will probably be a lot more to come on that theme.
    Thanks for asking.

  40. Leslie says:

    Your losses with your mom and then your brother are just so huge Phil. To have had those times, those connections and love with your brother and then to have him gone in so many ways is too overwhelming…
    So much less would be understood about mental health back then, and it doesn’t sound like your dad helped you with it at all. Hope you can write more about what you can here.

  41. Otto Codingian says:

    feel bad and doomed. i never know what to do in this situation. i forget that i can listen to music and maybe feel something. feel so bad. usually watch tv shows to numb the pain.

  42. Otto Codingian says:

    this beautiful man. i needed a beautiful man to take care of me, keep me from harm. didnt get one.

  43. Otto Codingian says:

    You know how a cat or maybe even a dog, will start huffing and puffing, heaving chest, for a few seconds, and them throw up some grass or other food? i get tears and the feeling wants out, a blast of volcanic feeling wants out, loud feeling, and i cant let it out, not at home (too loud) not even at the PI. probably too much danger attached to it. damn.

  44. Margaret says:

    > I was reminded of some of my own patterns I have struggled with many times during my life.
    > I used to get into a lot of struggles with the wrong kind of men, namely those who were not really that interested in me to start with..
    > that is not my main point.
    > what matters is things used to escalate, and most often I was setting myself up for it.
    > big arguments and struggles would arise, and in hindsight, as they did get worse, part of me wanted it to.
    > finally some of it started making sense, but at a high price of a lot of hurting and losing some friendships which meant a lot to me.
    > one of the main driving forces feelingwise, was wanting the guy of the moment to see/unerstand/acknowledge he was not treating me right, of course a ful recreation of my past history with my dad.
    > the vague hope that at some point he/they would see how nice I am, that I deserve better, and allow themselves to love me, or even dare to do so.
    > so why did I enjoy the escalation?
    > that revealed another big aspect of my pattern.
    > while crying, and feeling mommy mommy so often, it became clear what I wanted was things getting so obviously bad my mom would intervene and tell my dad he was not treating me as he should…
    > she was part of the construction really, as to me, as a child, she kept telling me daddy did love me really, reinforcing the idea under the neglect true love was hidden somewhere.
    > so if my struggles with those guys would get to a point they would really treat me rude enough, I’d end up being ‘in my right’, and my feeling of indignation would finally get some actual validity and support from the surroundings…
    > not a good pattern, and a very tricky one too…
    > I guess it might be resonating somehow with what Patrick seems to be going through, although of course there are differences as always, our lifes are always a personal history with its own distinct aspects.
    > it just struck me how driving something up to some extreme did strike me as familiar somehow, and can have its own primal reasons which need to be recognized to break through the pattern at some point.
    > and still it always remains dangerous to slip into that pattern again, but it seems easier to detect it in time and stop.
    > this recreating is such an interesting topic, but it is sad it causes so much pain and spoils the life of so many people, including mine up to some point in the past.
    > M

  45. Margaret says:

    > yesterday I went with my sister to visit my mom, and it was actually a very nice visit.
    > of course there were the repetitions and her lack of memory, but there were many very nice moments.
    > at some point we went to give a picture we tok last week, of another male resident putting his arm around my mom at a music afternoon there, and boy, my mom really stunned us all.
    > the man asked how much it was for the picture, nothing of course, and my sister laughed and said, well, a kiss will do.
    > he kissed her on the cheek first, and then my mom, being told he had given her some flowers the week before they had all received on the music event, also felt like kissing him of course, but his cheek was clearly not good enough for her, she said no that is not a real kiss, bent over again and kissed him straight on his lips, haha!
    > he did like it.
    > we met him again later on in the garden, mom had already forgotten who he was, but more or less the same thing happened.
    > it was sweet and innocent, making evereyone smile and feel happy.
    > then as the man’s last name was Woolf, a bit later on in the hallway we were waiting for someone, and my mom got inspired by the woolf and started to sing an old song about little red what’s her name, riding hood? the girl fron the fairy tale with the woolf and the granny.
    > she started singing all the verses, telling the whole fairy tale, and it was really heartwarming, specially the way she did it.
    > she personified all the characters in different ways, intonations and movements, and she was actually both playful and very skilled at it.
    > it was a long song and it was a real pleasure to listen to her.
    > it reminded me of how good she once was at a nursery school teacher, a Montessori kind .
    > she was good at telling tales and at singing songs and at catching everyone’s attention in a nice way.
    > so that made me feel really good and warm.
    > then in her room she got this National Geographic book from soewhere, and to our surprise once she had found her glasses, she started to read out long parts of two articles, one about forensic medicine and one about white sharks, and we were so surprised at how well she was reading, and also about how much pleasure she clearly got out of it.
    > so that was nice to discover, that she seems better able to do this again, so we can start bringing her nice things to read, stuff with pictures and short articles that could interest her.
    > it is so clear now she is in a good place, opening up and feeling happy.
    > of course it still remains exhausting after a while to keep answering the same questions over and over, but still, it leaves a nice feeling to visit her like this.
    > she is at peace with living there, so we can be so as well and enjoy it as much as possible.
    > M

  46. Phil says:

    It’s nice to hear your mother is doing well and it sounds like it was a great visit
    for everyone, including that male resident.

  47. Sylvia says:

    Hi Margaret,
    So enjoyed the good tidings about your mom. She is settling in quite well and enjoying her activities and friendships it sounds like.

    Speaking of your past boyfriends and your reasons for choosing them; I used to pick very strong-willed fellows to help me stand up to my mom. But after awhile I realized they could be as hard to handle as my mom was.

    Have a nice day.

  48. Margaret says:

    > Hi Sylvia,
    > yes, it is too bad it often (in my case anyway) takes so long before we see through our own patterns..
    > specially as I also took 20 years between reading the Primal scream and finally making the step to go for it.
    > from then on things started getting sorted out bit by bit, a process that is still on its way..
    > hope you have/find a nicer boyfriend now..
    > I am considering joining a dating site, everyone seems to end up finding someone there seemingly at some point..
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. I’m pretty content making it on my own now. For years I helped my mom and she helped me during my issues with chronic fatigue. Seems strange to say, but feel a freedom to be myself now. I think I just got used to giving in and trying to make my mom happy that I lost sight of my own personality. I just wanted to be a friend to her, but she would not ever see me as an equal. Even when I cooked a nice meal, she would say that some day you will be a good cook, instead of, ‘wow, this is good.’
      I guess I see relationships as compromising and losing a part of yourself. I like most now just having a couple of friends where everything feels even.

      • Sylvia: After reading Your statement at the end of your comment, I felt the need to relate my own experience. I have had 5 long term relations (each more than a two years period) and I agree totally that there is the need to compromise on many issues. However, I disagree that one has to lose a part of oneself in order to compromise.

        My way of dealing with it to have my feelings, in particular my irritations and angers, out of earshot of my current partner. That way I am able to have the feeling and at the same time prevent the spiring effect … by having it out with my partner. It does take a little practices, since the normal thing is to have it out with the person involved.


        • Erron says:


          “I felt the need to relate my own experience”

          it may be just me being an arsehole, but you often seem to “third-person (or is it 2nd?)” your feelings rather than just say them…

          You don’t need to abstract into intellectualism for me, I know how smart you are, and just love ya’ the way you are – when you are…



          • Erron: Thanks … I liked the compliment about being smart. Maybe cos I got a smart car yeah!!!!! 🙂 🙂 .

            Yeah I need ti to be aware of speaking in the third or second person … was not aware of doing it so I will now be conscious, and look out for it..


  49. Margaret says:

    > Sylvia,
    > yes, I think moms have a strong tendency to keep ‘educating’ their daughters I guess.
    > I can relate to enjoying living alone, well, with my cats, it can be very nice.
    > it is even getting hard for me by now to imagine being in a relationship would be an improvment and worth the ‘effort’ and energy to get it started up and working.
    > on the other hand I remember the thrill and joy of being together with someone I feel in love with, specially when it seems to be mutual, and even more so when it is working out.
    > any way of spending time then is fine, I guess it really takes a right kind of person, which are fairly rare, but if it happens it is so great, as I recall.
    > I remember being on the phone for hours just chatting, enjoying walking around, having drinks in a bar and talking and laughing endlessly, having deep intimate conversations and not to mention the rest of the closeness..
    > I’d be surprised to run into that kind of thing again but who knows,but then I better make some effort as they won’t come ringing my doorbell out of the blue probably…
    > maybe it is good it does not feel like a need anymore, just as a possibly nice option..
    > and in the meantime enjoying life with oneself and the cats, and the satisfaction of studying and some other activities , family and friends..
    > M

  50. Sylvia says:

    Hi Margaret. Yes, I remember the good times too, even though it’s been a long, long time. Nice to be able to remember. I agree there is joy in the simple things of cats and dogs and of family and friends. More so since allowing myself feelings and not seeing all things through a lens of depression. I’m thankful for the primal process, for sure.

    Jack, I hear you. It probably will take a while before I’m not ‘gun-shy’ to be so close to someone again, and be objective. It is probably a matter of just choosing friends who don’t want to be domineering. I have to watch myself too, to not to try and act-out being bossy with friends, relaying how I was treated and undervalued by my mom. It is a balancing act and of also giving myself time and space to trust.

    • Sylvia: Ok, I read you also. I just thought to add my way of doing things … especially in relationships. It works for me … least-ways for now. Take cared and good luck with friends and potential romantic relation for the future.

      I do find having someone (never perfect IMO), but at my age the feeling of having a companion is very important for me. I sure will be devastated if I lose him, but I have spent time living alone in the past; so the chance of it happening again, would not be new.


      • Erron says:

        not sure if it’s universal or not, but at all my ages I’ve just felt how important it is to be held when I hurt…

        or even when for no reason at all…

        • Erron: I feel the absolutely necessary for us all to be held often, throughout life … but especially in those very formative years. I wonder at times if the hugs that now seem more prevalent, after Kruschev hugged Uri Gargaren made it a more common practice. All this English ‘hand shaking’ is so unfeeling. I (luckily) still get it and of course give it. My mother would often say to us kids … we too boys slept together and the two girls slept together … “Cuddle one another” She’d cuddle/hold us from time to time. Never for long enough but at least something. So I tell my Jimbo and he’s caught on. He wishes he’d met my mother (Emily) as he will refer to her and look up to heaven … depending on his feeling towards me at any given moment, would either chastise her or praise her. He met my father.

          I wonder Erron is this and example of you saying, “speaking in the third or second person???”


  51. Margaret says:

    > Tom,
    > don’t know if you get comments by mail, but how was your trip to Europe??
    > and Guru, are you still there??
    > Bernadette? Renee? John?
    > Linda, Crystal?
    > Sandy?
    > Vicky?
    > sorry to those that escape me right now, feel tired..
    > today finally, after almost six months waiting, my landlord sent me two guys to check out the spots where to install central heating.
    > my hot water boiler was not working properly since march, with a few tricks I managed to still use it, with some risk probably, and despite promises from the landlord time kept going by.
    > recently it broke down completely, in a bit of a spectacular way, steam coming out of the tab, luckily after I left the shower as I needed to turn the boiler off before closing the tabs with my system…
    > then three days of waiting in vain for the workmen my landlord had promised me again, and today finally hurray!
    > a girlfriend was here which was handy to decide on the details, and also because I will move with my cats to her place for a few days while the work is done here and my whole place will be upside down.
    > still a few weeks from now, if things don’t get postponed again, but it feels good finally something starts moving and this will be taken care of.
    > scary too, moving the cats around, and managing hopefully without too much problems to keep them there and to get them back in their cages to come back home as well…
    > a nice guy called me as well today, the guy from these tropical islands, who told me today he is divorcing from his wife…
    > so mm, who knows, this opens up more perspectives..
    > told him when I last saw him a few months ago I wished to focus on friendship and only that certainly as long as he was married etc.
    > still don’t know if anything more is there feelingwise, but hey, smiley, it was nice to hear him..
    > M

  52. Erron says:

    and Marianne – of Leonard Cohen fame – died today:

    another door to the past slams a cold draft in my face…

  53. Otto Codingian says:

    A “blissfully romantic life”…what a fantasy for me…

  54. Otto Codingian says:

    didn’t mean to be trite with your feeling. pretty cold draft. i have had a few of those.

  55. Otto Codingian says:

    i was trying to get to a memorial today for my cousin who died recently. too far to go. too tired. usually i go to the PI on Saturdays to cry while listening to music. couldnt go there either. cry at home. catching up on tears i kept inside from previous losses, like my grandma’s funeral. My cousin was tearing up at that one, maybe he is seeing her now. good group last night. good to hear people opening up in a real way about their lives. i am so fucking sad. it is almost over. also my wife going away.
    “I’m a fool, but I’ll love you dear
    Until the day I die
    Now and then there’s a fool such as I”

  56. Otto Codingian says:

    mommy where you go? i sad

  57. Phil says:

    Now, after the class reunion I didn’t attend people are posting photos. Same deal in that there are very few people I remember.
    I do think there’s important (bad) stuff in all of this for me to remember. Maybe I can fix some of it in my head, if not in reality. I can’t go back and make friends I never had or be popular.
    The issue is, wanting to be popular but never really trying. Closely related to wanting my mother to see me, pay attention to me, to be popular with her, without my trying, at least not in any direct way, although she was dead long before I went to high school.
    A huge deficit from her, I have acted out my entire life.

    • Sylvia says:

      Phil, I see what you say in your connection. For not wanting ‘to try’ again with others for attention, so as to repeat how it was in your past when care was very needed and expected. Good connection; sad feeling.

  58. Otto Codingian says:

    gee i actually feel good after laying in bed for 2 hours with the cat and dog and crying some tears. that’s a new one. still, cant do what i want. wife wants dinner. dogs want walks and steak or chicken. cat wants to jump the fence. i just want to watch buster keaton.

  59. Phil says:

    > I just saw a short part of a ‘royalty’ program, but this was about a visit to an 18th century castle where the count still lives with his family, in a part of the castle. the rest is open to the public, and contstantly being looked after and renovated by a staff of ten people.
    > I was surprised at how charmed I was by hearing and watching the count giving the journalist a guided tour.
    > he sounded so friendly,well educated, polite and distinguished really. but all of that in a very relaxed way.
    > his daughter appeared as well, she was about to go study in England, knew she had been privileged to grow up in such a beautiful setting, and said she might take over the full time job of looking after the family castle later on.
    > there was also an adorable black Labrador with puppies, which the count clearly loved.
    > I grew up in an 18th century house myself, that was part of a castle’s property. the castle was in walking distance, owned back then by a baron.
    > later on with the actual owner we once had the chance of a visit, and boy, it is so nice and full of atmosphere, the new owner was an antiques business man, but also so well-educated and gentle, no presumptions whatsoever, he occasionally came by to our house for a chat, and was at my dad’s funeral.
    > I notice how seeing this documentary touches a chord, haha, a romantic fairy tale kind of chord, the combination of the beauty of a castle and its quietness and peace, with the well-educated gentleness and friendliness of what sounds like a gentleman feeling good, and calm and pleased with his life.
    > boy, haha, I could get used to that kind of life, with a partner like that.
    > what touches me most I guess, is what feels like a combination of education and gentleness and the art of living, with the means and beautiful surroundings of real old quality.
    > must admit I always loved these old fashioned romantic novels from time to time, always with a happy ending after some kind of trouble..
    > it is also just nice to know beauty and peace do exist somewhere, and quality.
    > I have a soft spot for old stuff, stuff with a soul and a history, furniture or little things that have been cherished by a number of people.
    > and mm, I guess the idea of a nice, gentle well educated guy with a sense of humor and emotional stability is also a nice daydream..
    > am in the middle of my actual course of philosophy , and it remains surprisingly interesting, how ideas have kept evolving over the centuries, building on each other and correcting themselves in various ways all the time.
    > it feels nice to get acquainted with all these thinkers, it is satisfying to joing their journey so to say.
    > and mom is still feeling ok, cats are jumping over my laptop so time to quit,
    > M

  60. Margaret says:

    Sorry, I sent that too quick. It should be clear that it is Margaret’s writings.
    But here it is again:

    > I just saw a short part of a ‘royalty’ program, but this was about a visit to an 18th century castle where the count still lives with his family, in a part of the castle. the rest is open to the public, and constantly being looked after and renovated by a staff of ten people.
    > I was surprised at how charmed I was by hearing and watching the count giving the journalist a guided tour.
    > he sounded so friendly,well educated, polite and distinguished really. but all of that in a very relaxed way.
    > his daughter appeared as well, she was about to go study in England, knew she had been privileged to grow up in such a beautiful setting, and said she might take over the full time job of looking after the family castle later on.
    > there was also an adorable black Labrador with puppies, which the count clearly loved.
    > I grew up in an 18th century house myself, that was part of a castle’s property. the castle was in walking distance, owned back then by a baron.
    > later on with the actual owner we once had the chance of a visit, and boy, it is so nice and full of atmosphere, the new owner was an antiques business man, but also so well-educated and gentle, no presumptions whatsoever, he occasionally came by to our house for a chat, and was at my dad’s funeral.
    > I notice how seeing this documentary touches a chord, haha, a romantic fairy tale kind of chord, the combination of the beauty of a castle and its quietness and peace, with the well-educated gentleness and friendliness of what sounds like a gentleman feeling good, and calm and pleased with his life.
    > boy, haha, I could get used to that kind of life, with a partner like that.
    > what touches me most I guess, is what feels like a combination of education and gentleness and the art of living, with the means and beautiful surroundings of real old quality.
    > must admit I always loved these old fashioned romantic novels from time to time, always with a happy ending after some kind of trouble..
    > it is also just nice to know beauty and peace do exist somewhere, and quality.
    > I have a soft spot for old stuff, stuff with a soul and a history, furniture or little things that have been cherished by a number of people.
    > and mm, I guess the idea of a nice, gentle well educated guy with a sense of humor and emotional stability is also a nice daydream..
    > am in the middle of my actual course of philosophy , and it remains surprisingly interesting, how ideas have kept evolving over the centuries, building on each other and correcting themselves in various ways all the time.
    > it feels nice to get acquainted with all these thinkers, it is satisfying to joing their journey so to say.
    > and mom is still feeling ok, cats are jumping over my laptop so time to quit,
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Castles are interesting places to visit. But as to royalty; off with their heads!
      Just kidding, that’s too extreme, just take away their crowns.
      Here we don’t have royalty but do have entertainment and sports stars, with luxurious lives to be be fascinated with. The Kardashians seem to be our royal family. I find it all so frivolous. At work, a complaint of mine is that we only ever have magazines focused on celebrities lying around for the patients and us to read. The people in those magazines live extreme lifestyles in “palaces’, quite similar to an actual royal family. Donald Trump is kind of a part of this crowd due to success on reality TV shows and how he garners attention. I would hate to have him and his royal family ruling us.

    • Margaret: Reading your post about the aristocracy and living in castles, I feel is ‘romantic fantasy’ Form my learning, and readings of English history I am not so sure their lives, and especially their child-hoods were any less traumatic than most others. The Aristocracy’s children are grossly indoctrinated with the most rigorous behaviors, which seem, from their biographies and many other titles of their life, must have been very traumatic. Especially and including the present Queen of England and most of her decedents; to be living in guided cages; cages nevertheless Their behaviors taught and instilled into them in their own formative years are far from pleasant, from many of the accounts I have read about. My very first encounter on attending The Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. was such an aristocrat. Sure he seemingly had all the preventives, but what accompanied most of that was a behavior that was far from their ‘real selves’s, as I saw it.

      If one were to only read the plays of Shakespeare of the histories, and see more closely their lives … it wasn’t, for the most part, even safe. Other English literature:- “Brides- head Revisited” by Evelyn Waugh, “Ivanhoe” by Sir Walter, Scott et al. Not for me … thanks.

      I could wish for a better child-hood, BUT I have no desire to have been brought up with privileges. Even our fairy tales seem to bend towards Princes and Princesses. Just because they don’t have to do the chores most of us have to perform they nevertheless have chores. One needs to look no further to Elizabeth II when in public. Geeze … does she even have a life???????


      • Christopher S. Fite says:

        In 1988, I visited Miami Beach, and walked into a well-known luxury hotel (The Fountainblue Hotel, I think it was.) A lot of luxury there, but I felt kind of unfree there, since it was so upper-class, that I was kind of afraid to make a wrong move. I didn’t stay there, I just walked around the lobby or gift shop. This may be how it is for a kid growing up in the English Royal Family.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Christopher: Simple solution;- abolish the monarchy, governments, lawmaking, and the glue that holds all this stuff in place thinking we need it all; because we’re all worried about the other guy ……. yet we are all of us “the other guy”, yeah??


  61. Otto Codingian says:

    tired of this shit. think it’s a feeling? maybe. tired cant move. diabetes. too much to do. taxes to do. no one to help. laying in a bassinette with no joy in the future. living with old people, little joy from them, they are too old. i am too old. tired of this fucking shit. i would attempt to feel it if z were not here. dogs and cats that need stuff every second. pains from the past flood my present. screw this fucking shit. no screwing either. even if it did take place, it would be pretty much meaningless. fuck this shit.

  62. Donal says:

    i too see the connection between not trying to be popular and your mother, I never thought about it but I have always acted out in a similar way. Passively waiting and hoping my parents will give me some attention or draw me out…..I tend to act this out with people generally.
    I am not sure how similar it is to what you are saying but when I read your post I instantly saw that part of myself clearly,

  63. Margaret says:

    > Phil, haha, some people will be slightly surprised at first at reading about your attraction to a count..
    > and Otto,
    > I get the impression you and Z still do care about each other.
    > why would sex be meaningless? it can be a way of communicating as well, a lot of opportunities for tenderness there apart from the rest.
    > somehow I get the impression communication is the key problem, or am I completely wrong?
    > it is painful to know you feel so unhappy, wish there was something I could do.
    > M

  64. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > I was not making any statements about aristocracy in general at all.
    > I was merely talking about my own feelings triggered by watching one particular person and his daughter.
    > she seemed kind of ok at first sight, when she said she was aware of having been able to grow up in a privileged setting, adding she was very aware of that and tried to enjoy it consciously , she just came across as being real and simply a nice person.
    > a lot of these people are not really rich anymore, in the sense that so much of their former wealth goes into taking care of the property, which they love, of course. most of them open it up to the public to some degree, and actually manage to preserve it and the surrounding pieces of nature by doing so.
    > but hey, as I said, I was not expressing any opinion about ‘them’, as I am sure a lot of them are pretty sick as well, like many of them being into religion but also perverted in other ways. but as everywhere, every person is different and well, this discussion seems superfluous really.
    > what struck me as i said repeatedly was the friendliness and good manners, which probably means something more to me feeling wise like opposite to what I had as a child.
    > nothing wrong with feeling attracted by that.
    > M

    • Margaret: I have a feeling we are talking crossed purposes. I did not think for a moment that you were condoning wealth or aristocracy, but wishing for something that I was obviously not clear about. The Public Broadcasing Sevice here has been showing endlessly the BBC’s “Downton Abbey”, which I am very aware of since Jim, my partner, is an avid viewer of it. To me it represent the very worst of the British and I wonder at the American public’s like of it. It’s the most disgusting aspect of the inequalities of peoples all over the planet.

      Preserving these monsterous monuments of Greed, Shear gross decoration of so called homes, the lauding it over others (upstairs and downstairs mentality), and is IMO the best way to prevent a feeling-full human race.

      To make one final pitch:- It’s MONEY that creates this inequality, and whilst any means of exchange, rather than the NATURAL GIVING & TAKING that was there for each of at birth … we are losing the battle for a feeling-full human race, that Primal Therapy is aiming to put each of back to becomming that, that we were ALL born with. It’s not that currency/money in-and-of-itself; for it only paper and metal coins. It’s the ‘trappings’ that surrounds it, and does it’s utmost to maintain … subliminally … I contend.

      Lastly, your suggesting that the girl was happy about he piveledge is something I personally find “wrong headed”. It sounds innocent enough on first encounter, but it reveals an indoctrination that IS THE PROBLEM … for ALL of us. We all got doust in it’s horrors.


  65. Patrick says:

    ‘like many of them being into religion’………… if people here are not? Not that I think (anymore) that being into religion is ‘bad’ it is such a huge factor in life and in at attempt to make sense of it. Like everyday pretty much I see Jack ‘into religion’ as in ‘bless Janov for his great discovery nay not only the greatest ever made the greatest that ever will be made’ a sort of pure expression of religious belief and i am not saying it is ‘bad’ it seems to be a human primal need we might say……….

  66. Patrick says:

    A little bit more about ‘belief systems’ and religions etc in this case ‘psychology’ itself. This is from Jon Rappoport so Jack please don’t be ‘reflexive’ but be a bit ‘reflective’ and start critiquing this guy as if it is me it is just me quoting him. Got that clear as you seem to have problems along these lines

    “Psychiatry is just another organized religion. Instead of a wafer and a sip of wine, they have drugs. Lots of toxic drugs. Their cosmology is a picture they paint, the subject of which is Normal. Sane. Average. Adjusted. By their definitions.”

    “Psychiatry would like to be known as some kind of ultimate information theory. Information theory is what the loser in a poker game is left with. It’s all he’s got, so he has to go out on the street and try to sell it, hypnotize people with it. Pure scrubbed data, as empty and dead as the face of an old politician.”

    “Today’s psychiatrists are playing around with brain signals. They have no idea what the mind is. No idea what consciousness is. No idea what freedom is. They have no idea how different individuals would be from one another if they broke out of the collective prison of The Normal.”

    “The Wizard of Psychiatry is a hustler from way back. His job is to make Normal plausible.”

    “Everything a human being is starts to come into view when he gets rid of Normal.”

    “Psychiatry and its government, media, and intelligence-agency allies are saying, ‘See that crazy killer over there? Anybody could turn into that. Even you. So we have to treat the whole population before somebody starts spraying bullets in your neighborhood. We have to sculpt everybody into a good citizen, an average person.'”

    “Psychiatry is the Surveillance Society of the brain. The NSA with toxic drugs.”

    “Psychiatry is State control of emotion and thought. And its poor cousin, psychology, has devolved into sentimental hokum for the rubes. Slop. The universe and life are much open than that.”

    “At the bottom of his titanic pile of nonsense, the Wizard of Psychiatry is saying, ‘You’re not free.’ But you are.”

    “Sixty years ago, a hundred years ago, there was an idea in America. The Open Road. Travel the open road. Adventure. Psychiatry is one of the disciplines that’s tried to shut it down.”

    “Since there are no definitive physical tests for any of the 300 officially certified mental disorders—no blood tests, no urine tests, no brain scans, no genetic assays—what we’re left with is a phantasm-map of Nowhere Land, a philosophy of limitation. A translation of human problems and suffering into a professional liar’s language, made-up nonsensical technical gibberish. And the federal government licenses this as a monopoly, in line with its made-up version of the Constitution.”

    “There never was, and never will be, a science of consciousness, because by its very nature, consciousness is free and unpredictable. Many people find this hard to swallow, because they fear freedom. They know they’ve lost it somewhere, and they don’t want anyone else to have it.”

    “Consciousness wants to create more consciousness, and it does so by the use of imagination.”

    • Patrick: Most of what you quote here I can agree with … BUT whom ever the guy is (Jon Rappoport ) that you are quoting, makes no mention of Arthur Janov AND his major breakthrough that waylayed a great deal of current Neurophysiolgy. Phsychatry, and Fredian Psychology. My reading of Jaov’s works suggested likewise that we’d gotten a lot of things scewed to the extent that it was not helping anyone much. Jon R. seemingly agrees with most of this. However, he is not putting together a contrary thesis; other that to state that what has has gone before is “nonsense”

      Anyone is at liberty to state that others and other theories are nonsence, but it takes someone with a little more genius to put a counter theory into play (Primal theory) that I have not heard anyone counter, other than yourself; that is for ever saying it is flawed. That proves nothing. If you wish to dwell in to the rehlms of science, then I feel you need to do a lot more work and a great amount of study … which seemingly you do not want to bother with. You merely search the web for some other guy putting accross his/her opinion and run with it. Not good enough Patrick.


  67. Margaret says:

    > you are very sick Patrick, with ugly symptoms and clearly have not learned anything at all, or refused to do so clinging to your nastiness. pretty disgusting is all what is left to say.
    > M

  68. Margaret says:

    > wow, if this is supposed to be an example of Rapaports insights, it kind of does the opposite.
    > this is just meaningless nonsense using some fancy words here and there.
    > really, what a waste of time to be reading stuff like this, it makes no sense whatsoever and has no meaningful content at all.
    > M

  69. Anonymous says:

    What is this, are you going down in a blaze of glory? This is the most ridiculous bullshit I’ve ever seen on the internet. What are you DOING here??

  70. Patrick: I think you are on the wrong blog.


  71. Margaret says:

    > Jack, we are not on the same wavelength of communication.
    > maybe I am not clear, but it is ok, you have your views which I understand and can agree with, in general, never liked the upstairs downstairs thing at all.
    > but here we are , or I was talking about two present members of a family who inherited an old castle, and I only said the young girl said she was very aware of the privilege of having had the possiblility to grow up in that kind of beautiful setting. she said she was therefore consciously paying attention to enjoying it, which is just a way to say she feels grateful, not taking it for granted.
    > people can’t help being born in such a setting either, it does not necessarily mean they are not ok.
    > that is a whole other issue than what you talk about, that is why i say we are not on the same topic here really.
    > i was not gonna say it, but your first response was some kind of a lecture, the good thing is in the past I have told you many times you were starting to lecture me when we would be together on retreats, and you would then always stop immediately.
    > so that is why it does not bother me too much, it is a part of you.
    > my focus was on the beauty of an old castle and on the attractiveness of a nice personality combined with a good education, and hey,al of it together even a nicer thing to dream about for a brief moment.
    > M

  72. Sylvia says:

    Here is yet another $.02 on British TV. I used to love the British comedies where they would make fun of their aristocracy worshipping in “To the Manner Born” and “Keeping up Appearances.” My mom and I used to watch the British actors in the matinee movies on TV during the summer months whilst she sewed. Those were good times when we all cared about each other.

    Y’all have a good work week.

  73. Leslie says:

    Hey there Erron – I did enjoy that link for “Marianne”. Still like that song so much! TY

    And Margaret way back up there – it was great to hear how your visit with your Mom went.
    She was so creative and you all enjoyed a good time together. I am glad that she has settled in so well. There is lots of good info. for all of us to absorb. I recently read an article that agreed with your move idea – that is, that it can be overwhelming for an elderly person (esp. with medical complications etc.) – so can be best to get them settled in their new place and then work on clearing out. This along with the info. from Jack about retaining personal power, and of course that each person is an individual with their own wants & needs etc. from Gretchen I believe it was.

    “Keeping up Appearances” was so funny with Hyacinth, Rose, Daisy and ? – the 1 you never saw, & must be a flower so how hard can it be – but is for me 🙂 and then Onslo of course… Good stuff Sylvia! Did something drastic happen to take away the caring ?

    • Erron says:

      Glad you enjoyed it, Leslie.

      Leonard Cohen: God how I wanted to BE him when I was in my 20s! Or Voznesensky or Yevtushenko! Exotic, shunned, misunderstood, exiled to the archipelagoes…

      But LOVED by a small important sliver of people. How that nails it…

      And yet, after all that fame and fortune he got ripped off by his financial advisors, to the extent that he had to go on tour to pay off his debts, when he was in his 70s!

      So in the end, after all the brilliant lines on paper and the pain lines in our faces, that’s all we are: someone hurt in need of caring.

      …very drunk and worthless tonight…


  74. Sylvia says:

    Hi Leslie. I almost forgot about the well-to-do Violet, don’t remember seeing her either. Yes, Onslo was funny wearing a sweater vest without a shirt. His wife Daisy, so down-to-earth, was my favorite. Felt for Hyacinth’s quiet unassuming husband.

    I don’t think anything big happened to take away our caring. My mom always had a hot temper. She just grew suspicious of people in later years. I don’t think it was personal though it felt like it when she’d be angry at me for no reason.

  75. David says:

    My reaction to Patrick and his post got deleted with his message, which I don’t actually care about, but I did want to expand/reflect on it a bit. When I see that Patrick has posted on this blog, particularly after he has laid low for a while, I get a sinking feeling of “Oh God, he’s still around”. I find what he writes to be for the most part incoherent, boring, ridiculous and obnoxious and I don’t even read it any more, I just sort of scan it. But if and when I react to him, and I’ve for the most part just ignored him, I do wonder if I should be somewhat wary of what I’m “bringing to the party”. I’ve noticed that when I start thinking about someone as a “pain in the arse”, that phrase has for me a definite significance that is no longer lost on me…

    I wrote last week about possibly going to a community camp on the weekend, a kind of hippie/new age thing that I was looking forward to. It was borderline, but In the end I decided that with my energy levels being where they were it was just too much of a mission. I didn’t want to just go there and be miserable and have people resent me for it. I wanted to feel I was contributing something with my presence. So I didn’t go, which was very disappointing. I’ve been invited to a friend and his wife’s place to dinner tomorrow, but I’m thinking of canceling or asking that it be postponed also. It’s just been a crap couple of weeks! I woke up this morning from a dream where I was lying in bed and there was a huge hole in the ceiling with water puring through, so I had to jump out and watch my pillow get soaked. For me, a house is a symbol of the self, and waking up from this dream was sobering and depressing. I don’t want a damaged house/self I want it to be beautiful and comfortable.

    • Christopher S. Fite says:

      David, you say that for you, a house is a symbol of the self. That’s OK. With me, I live in a one-bedroom apartment, and I have a tendency to stay in my apartment, being kind of uneasy when I leave my apartment. It’s like a cocoon, or maybe like my mother’s womb–I have a certain comfort, in staying in my apartment. Consider this–the word “room” sounds very similar to the word “womb” (and in fact, a little child, who can’t say his “r’s” yet, could pronounce the word “room” in a way that sounds like “womb”.)

  76. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > I relate so much to what you describe. not feeling up to socializing and then feeling bad for canceling.
    > I feel like saying just take good care of yourself, don’t be too hard on yourself, watever you decide on a given moment is ok.
    > if you are not up to something allow yourself to cancel and then feel what comes up. a next time you might be more able to go, it is an ongoing struggle but sometimes it is just nice and rigt to give yourself a break.
    > it is a painful state to be in, I know, and I am always aware of the risks of canceling too often and turning friends off eventually.
    > but you sound like you do make genuine efforts and that is what matters. at some point any road can lead you into the necessary feeling and then things start getting easier little by little.
    > good luck, nice to read your comments.
    > M

    • David says:


      Thanks for your comment, which helped me to get to some underlying pain about my father today and to cry about it. It wasn’t very long or intense, but it was something. What also helped were holding and looking at photos of me in childhood. I went to my mum’s last week ostensibly to help her sort old photos, which I did, but actually I mostly went to find old photos of me, which I’ve been finding to help me to feel on occasion. I have fantasies of time traveling and going back to meet the child I was, of holding me/him and just asking simple stuff about how my day is going and what I like to do as well as hugging my young self, so he knows that someone knows and cares.

      I must admit I’m in a bit of quandary about dinner tomorrow. I’ve felt something of an upswing in my energy, so I may go after all. I’ll see how I feel tomorrow.

      How are your studies going?

  77. Otto Codingian says:

    leonard cohen. there for you. my favorite

  78. Margaret says:

    > David,
    > hope you can go and have a nice dinner. usually as soon as I am on my way the fear dissipates, it is always at its worse before actually doing something..
    > but even knowing that sometimes is not enough to overcome the paralising feeling of not feeling up to whatever.
    > my studying is at this point a steady working every day on summarizing a long course about philosophy, an overview of the history of western philosophy focusing on what can be known as true, turning into what is a good demarcation criterium to divide science from pseudo science.
    > it is interesting to learn about the whole evolution of thought that has been going on since Plato with all the different schools and views and all the debates that are often still going on.
    > but it is a lot of work, one computer to read out the course to me on a cdrom and the laptop besides it to write the summary, which will turn into a 100 pages or so as well. I will have to make a short overview of my own summary to be able to remember the general lines and details of all the different views.
    > the thing is I am in a bit of a time pressure as I also signed up for a complicated course of literature study, part of the statistics program.
    > will have to look up and sort out articles about some subjects with scientific search engines, which did not work when I tried it, as it is not only a question of searching in the proper way, but then also sorting stuff out and dwonloading it in some way,summarizing what is important and writing the references in a very specific manner.
    > then we have to prepare a kind of research plan also following complicated guidelines, and send in papers which will be commented on to then be corrected by us and sent in again etc.
    > we have to do this in pairs, but my fellow student is remaining very silent lately.
    > which of course gives me time to work on the philosophy department…
    > it takes energy but also gives satisfaction.
    > and next week my place will be upside dwon as they come to install central heating.
    > with a girlfriend we made a whole plan how to keep out of the way and keep the cats out of the way mostly, during those days, but it wil be stressful and a lot of moving furniture and cleaning up kind of stuff.
    > but well, let’s hope it will be an improvment, can’t work forever with these old gas stoves as they are really too old and probably unsafe.
    > so pretty busy but that is ok, better than being bored!
    > this week my weekly gym class starts, which is very nice, find that energizing as well, as it is fun, it is a group thing and different every week, but a good work out really.
    > take care, and look forward to hearing if the dinner was ok,
    > M

    • David says:


      Sadly, I decided I needed to cancel my dinner date. But my friend was very good about it and we’ll arrange for another time. I still might see him tomorrow for coffee (or in my case peppermint tea) depending on how I’m feeling. It wasn’t really about fear, at least not that I’m aware of. It’s more about energy levels and general feeling of discomfort. I need to feel “up”, or it least on the level, if I’m going to be socialising, but definitely not down. There is fear, I’ve discovered, behind this fatigue syndrome, but that’s very hard to get to and feel. Especially on my own.

      The study work sounds intense and absorbing though it sounds like you’re on top of things. I hope your new central heating gets up and running smoothly. It is just about the time of year when you’re going to start needing it.

  79. Larry says:

    You say you checked and checked a lot. What are your information sources? I’d be interested to read them, provided they give me real information. Are they first hand accounts of people in Europe and the Soviet Republic who lived through WWII, or the children of parents who did? If your sources are opinions only, they may be interesting but wouldn’t give me real information upon which I could base my own opinion.

    If there was a Holocaust, it would be obscene to deny the experience of people who suffered through it or died because of it.

    If there wasn’t a holocaust, that would be a great relief.

    Everything I’ve read and heard, and it’s been a disturbing read, tells me there was a holocaust, and that most of the people who were killed lived in states destroyed by the war and who had no rights or protections. I think we need to look at it and understand how it happened in order to prevent something like that from happening again. It could happen again. It happened in Cambodia.

    • Patrick says:

      Larry – a suggestion would be start with Nick Kollerstrom’s “Breaking the Spell” which could be seen as a kind of ‘popularized’ but very thorough and based itself on an enormous amount of reading. Then go to 2 main ‘primary sources’ Fred Leuchter’s “Leuchter report” which was a ‘scientific’ study done by an American Fred Leuchter on the actual feasibility (or not) of ‘gas chambers’ he was a gas chamber designer in the US for death row situations and to me the best and most thorough that I have found “Dissecting the Holocaust” by Germar Rudolp which actually is an anthology or about 20 different authors on the subject but pulled together by German Rudolp. This is quite a massive book and might keep you busy for a few months but I think it is very worthwhile as it is more than ‘one man’s opinion’ and deals with many many different aspects of what is quite a big and confusing subject

      • Quote:- “it is more than ‘one man’s opinion’ and deals with many many different aspects of what is quite a big and confusing subject”.

        Being more than ones mans opinion doesn’t say anything about it’s validity. If there were millions with the same opinon that might have some bearing.

        Next:- “many different aspects of what is quite a big and confusing subject”.. Oh! is it??? My take is it’s a very simple subject. Read Mein Kamp for starters. Afterwards you might have some credibility. Not a lot but some … perhaps.


        • Patrick says:

          Your ‘interludes’ of self knowledge don’t seem to last that long and then it’s back to ‘attack dog’ mode…………your ‘points’ here are pretty much beside any point at it’s just reflexive attack dog mode but as a factual point I have read “Mein Kamp”………….not sure what your point is there oh I forgot you don’t have one you are just compulsivly and reflexivly being your attack dog self………….and I suppose here you feel ‘support’ for your shenanigns which really just shows you as a coward………just ganging up with the crowd and you feel you have the ‘support’ of Teacher are you hot for Teacher (Van Halen)

      • Larry says:

        Patrick, I agree it is a big subject in that there seems to be a lot written about it, more than the average individual could read all of and assess. Spurred by your arguments to think more about it, it seems to me that I (everyone) at some point comes to trust and have at least and open minded sceptical faith in the truth delivered by the authors we read. For instance, I’ve never seen a proton or an electron but I accept and believe what I’m told about their existence because there is so much corroborating evidence, understanding and technical and scientific development that follows from their discovery and knowing their properties.

        Over that last 20 years, I’ve done a lot of reading about European history, the Middle East, and a little about China, out of curiosity and a thirst to understand how the political and religious developments and tensions brought us to where we are today in world affairs. Scanning my bookshelves, I count 36 books I’ve read on history. A most disturbing book that I just finished reading is “Black Earth. The Holocaust as History and Warning” by Timothy Snyder, copyright 2015. No doubt my interest also stems from wanting to know about the conditions of my grandparents’ lives and how that influenced my parents and me. My grandparents came from Poland and the Ukraine and settled on the Canadian prairies in the 1920s, only 50 years after the last buffalo were killed off and the indigenous people were removed leaving the virgin prairie open for European settlement.

        Only in grade school (grades 1-8) was I taught history. I wasn’t taught about the Spanish Inquisition and the persecution and burning of people accused of witchcraft that went on right into the 1800s, I wasn’t taught about the Holocaust, and I wasn’t taught that the opening of the North American west was a form of ethnic cleansing to remove indigenous people from their land who were considered sub-human with no rights, to make room for Europeans. When I learned about these things in adulthood through my reading, they disturbed and shattered my naivete.

        Hitler was inspired by the genocide that opened up the North American west and that led to the growth and development of the United States as a world super power. He believed in the struggle for survival of the races and that might was right. His idea was to overpower and subjugate (starve) the people of Europe and Russia, slavs who he deemed inferior, and open their land for Germany. He considered the racial struggle to be a Law of Nature. Homo sapiens can survive only by unrestrained racial killing. In his mind Jews threatened the Law of Nature because “a Jewish triumph of reason over impulse would mean the end of the species.” It’s a strange way of thinking but the gist is that to save the species the Jews had to be removed from the general population. I expect you know this from reading Mein Kampf.

        As he took WWII eastward and into Russia, states and institutions in his path were destroyed and people’s rights and protections vanished. That is where the killing of Jews began and most of it happened. To ingratiate themselves with their conquerors, to survive, local populations participated in the killing. Timothy Snyder asserts “Auschwitz has also become the standard shorthand of the Holocaust because, when treated in a certain mythical and reductive way, it seems to separate the mass murder of Jews from human choices and actions.” And “When the mass murder of Jews is limited to an exceptional place and treated as the result of impersonal procedures, then we need not confront the fact that people not very different from us murdered other people not very different from us at close quarters.”

        In a YouTube interview discussing his book “Breaking the Spell”, Kollerstrom quibbles over details about Auschwitz and gas chambers to conclude that there was no Holocaust. He seems to gloss over or ignore so much information about what occurred, by focusing only on Auschwitz and gas chambers. It seems to me that quibbling about such details detracts from the horrible tragedy of WWII. He seems to pick and choose the information that he needs to come to his conclusions. From a quick internet search I found that separately both Tom Secker and Nick Kollerstrom wrote on their investigation of the 7/7 train bombing in Britain, that question the official reports by the authorities. Apparently Nick Kollerstrom asserts that the CCTV still of the alleged bombers at Luton station was fake, when in fact it was supported by moving video evidence. Also it’s easy to find critiques of Kollerstrom’s arguments that the gas chambers didn’t exist. His practice of cherry picking or dismissing evidence in order to arrive at the conclusions he wants, is enough for me to conclude that Kollerstrom is not a reliable source of information or thinking on the subject.

        • Patrick says:

          Larry – I think it is good you delve into ‘history’ as it relates to yourself and not just ‘personal’ history in the narrow kind of ‘therapy’ meaning. I think both are important. For myself I am struck more and more how this kind of cultural background has a big bearing and influence on the way we think and feel. To try to be just objective about things for example here Gretchen and Daniel who are Jewish seems to be just a bit MORE upset that say someone who is not. In my own case the Irish were ‘outside’ a lot of the mayhem involved in both World Wars and I think I mentioned before when my Dad would talk to my brother and myself about WW2 he seemed to have quite a neutral stance on it even maybe a sneaking liking for the German side. And why would he not? The English were our historic persecutors and this to him was not such a distant memory. The Famine which I now do understand more was in many ways a deliberate policy of the English or at least with their crazy beliefs about the ‘workings of the market’ they were totally ‘unfeeling’ about little matters like starvation and being thrown out of the simple homes the Irish were living in.

          Anyway not to just then ‘take one’s own side’ in history but it a factor and when trying to determine the ‘truth’ it is worth keeping in mind. Like I was reading something again recently about the Irish Famine and the sheer degradation and destuction of so much and those memories are real and are carried on into future generations (mine) And while in England this Summer my brother told me he went to one of the Rothchild’s mansions and he showed me the brochures etc about it. This was built in the middle 1800’s around the same time as the Famine and my God the two worlds could not be more different. And at the same time the two worlds were connected, it was the exploitation of the Irish and not only them of course that made the ‘wealth’ of the Rotchilds and their ilk in England possible. So I consider it part of me coming to terms with things to understand and delve into stuff like this. And it is hard for me to feel ‘sorry’ for the likes of the Rothchilds who co-incidentally or not were a huge factor in fomenting a lot of these world wars. So now maybe like my Dad I started to have a sneaking liking for the German side but reading more about it I conclude really to put it maybe a bit simply and naively the ‘bad guys’ started and won WW2 same as WW1. English propoganda and Jewish well propoganda also are devious and very clever and about all have the ability to ‘fool’ that of course is the purpose of ‘propoganda’ and the Irish were putty in their hands. So I push back on that.

          So following Guru’s image on the 10,000 apples and their being a few ‘bad apples’ like me contaminating the cart…………there might be another way of looking at this. 10,000 GMO shiny pumped up with artificial fertilizers etc versus a few bad looking but real and true apples. The GMO’s might look better but I think the other ones are better for you in the long run. Your version of history there Larry I see as a bit twisted and ‘polished’ like a shine GMO apple the ‘real’ story is not like you say imo………………but I see and appreciate you really do search for the truth. That is a very good quality it’s just well maybe put down that shiny good LOOKING apple and pick up the one without so called ‘credibility’. One thing I imagine we might agree on the ‘standard version of history’ is not working out so well for us after all it has brought us to where we are now. Can we honestly say that is a good place? A world of constant wars and environmental catastrophes, weather manipulation and cars that drive themselves some people feel we are entering the “End Times” I am not inclined to that kind of ‘religous’ apcolapyse thinking but it does make me wonder……….

          • Patrick says:

            Sorry ‘starving over’ should be ‘starting over’ (Freudian slip?) and going back a step earlier the ‘stories’ of Jews being made into soap and lampshades………….that ALSO has been ‘abandoned’ most all of it should be abandoned, if someone is caught lying over and over when exactly do you stop believing him…………….

          • Larry says:

            You carry a grudge against the British, the Jews, and the US.

            For centuries over and over my ancestors lives were shattered by German and by Russian power that invaded and tore apart their communities and their lives. In 1929 the Soviet collectivisation of farms in the Ukraine led to mass starvation in the rural communities. It was essentially a decree to put the Ukrainian rural population to death by starvation. Even the Poles and the Ukrainians at different times in history attacked and occupied each other<s territories.

            When they started new lives on the Canadian prairies the Ukrainian, Polish and German settlers hated and mistrusted each other but they had to find ways to get along to make their communities of mixed ethnicities successful in the new world. I grew up afraid of or even hating Nazis and Russian and Chinese communists and Indians. But these days I don<t have a grudge against any of them. I just try to understand political and cultural forces that propelled people and history, and I wonder, had I lived in those times, in some situations could I just as easily have been the oppressor. In some ways I am an oppressor in that I enjoy a good life in a land taken from the people who originally lived here and whose ancestors suffer today as a result of their displacement and the destruction of their way of life and their sense of self worth.

            What I<m saying is that people change and grow over time, or at least many do and not many of us can say that we haven<t oppressed anyone somehow. Are you going to carry your grudges to your grave^

            • Patrick says:

              Larry – that’s interesting what you say about what the Soviets did to the Ukraine etc that is also very much my understanding of what went on. And if you think about it isn’t it quite ironic that those same Soviets were our great ally in WW2 and the Germans were the great ‘enemy’. What I have read about the German and Russian war the standards of the Germans were so much higher than the Soviets they actually respected and took seriously rules about how to treat prisoners of war and so on. The Soviets had no regard for those. I also agree very much with what you say about what happened to the Native people who lived in Canada (and the US)

              About holding ‘grudges’ I think you misunderstand me there quite a bit. It is not so much a matter of grudges it is a matter in my mind at least of coming to an understanding as best as I can about things including ‘history’ Sometimes that can leave me with a quite ‘commited’ view about some things does not mean they are ‘grudges’ at all. At least I don’t see it like that. To pursue that kind of thinking any ‘commited’ idea or belief becomes a ‘grudge’

                • Another unanswered question. WHY were Jews, Gypsy’s, Gays and the the mentally retarded rounded up, and put in concentration camps?. I doubt you’ll bother to answer. Though it was made very clear in Hitler’s book you claim to have read.


                  • Patrick says:

                    Do you seriously expect me to get in a ‘debate’ with you about details of history. Whatever I say like I dunno ‘the sun is up’ you would dispute and fight forever and ever to prove ‘no the sun is actually down’ So I know you like the attention but I will have to pass but just say you are wrong on just about anything you mention here.. And I don’t just ‘claim’ to have read Hitler’s book I have actually read it. Now I expect some nattering about ‘not being able to read’ I know you dude and all your little poisonous and predictable ‘moves’. Playing what you think are your ‘greatest hits’ over and over and over nothing new ever………………

                    • Patrick:- How about answering my question first and then you can slam me all you like.

                      You love asking question BUT seemingly refuse (conveniently) to answer them.

                      So!!!! AGAIN Why did Hitler, from your reading of his book; decide to send Jews, Gypsy, Gays and the mentally retarded into concentration camps????


  80. Phil says:

    This is just getting worse and worse. I wonder if the whole thing stems from anger towards the PI, Janov, and primal therapy in general. Otherwise, what’s the importance of venting about the holocaust here?

  81. Patrick: Ha ha! we finally got a feeling out of you, Quote:- “I am just really pissed off ……” Now if you could only OWN it … instead of blaming it. then you’d be making progress.

    One other point you make in this long long tirade is that there there were 20 suicides. People that are suicidal are people desperate for help and some of them read the Primal literature and came for help. When it did not happen they way they hoped it would happen they continued their quest for an “out” and resorted to the one they’d already been contemplating … suicide. Primal Therapy DID NOT DRIVE THEM TO SUICIDE.

    But then twisting things (often called “spinning”) is another of your talents.. You lost it the moment, according to your own account, you said OR thought, to your first week therapist, “What’s the point”. You need a cognitive (left side lobe) reason for everything, seemingly. The man you took to quoting, Jon Rappoport. questioned the psychological profession’s sense of the consciousness was referring to the orthodox thinking of Pavlov/Skinner behaviorism OR Freudian cognitive consciousness. Janov’s discovered the whole other half … that had been hidden for eons. In that sense Janov might agree, with Jon Rappoport on that one point

    Janov wasn’t the first to go there … Danny Wilson was the first … screaming his head off, to not go there, but when it happened anyway … proclaimed afterwards, “I’ve done it … I don’t know what … but I can feel”. You refused to go there asking ” what’s the point’. Therein you lost your time, and energy coming to The Primal Institute and plonking down all that money.

    I could well be wrong, but I suspect you are still angry that you did not get it. Why else would you still cling to this blog, knowing that you are a lone wolf, desperate to prove you were/are right all along. Meantime, according to many, being nothing short of offensive.


  82. Deleting offensive comments is apparently working for all those, and seemingly there are many, that find your comments offensive. If you wish to join the few that are questioning the Nazi holocaust, you could even report it, on this blog, WITHOUT being offensive. You come across as very bitter to me … least-ways, in expressing it.

    If the Nazi concentration camps were not a means of eliminating, Jews, Gypsys, Gays and the mentally retarded; then why put all these people in concentration camps anyway? Maybe you’ll even find reasons to BELIEVE the concentration camps didn’t exist either. So far you’ve not suggested that, as far as I know. Maybe Ireland is just a figment of your imagination and is actually just another peninsular of Germany????

    Discussing what is TRUTH and/or FALSE is something I got into in my book that you said you read. For example:- I am not sure that Stephen Hawking’s “Big Bang” theory is correct. Here’s my reasoning on that matter :- There are very few universal ‘shapes out there (in the universe). Three in fact. The first is the circle or eclipse, the second is the sphere and the third is the spiral. I don’t see ‘out there’, any straight lines. That, I contend is a human concept created for our own convenience to denote beginnings and endings.. Time is another; Who’s to suggest that time is linear???? Maybe it goes in circles or perhaps even spirals. Maybe we’ve been here before. Maybe the universe always existed.. It’s a thought.(head trip, if you like)

    Stephen Hawking’s PhD ‘Big Bang’ thesis is based entirely on two concepts. The first is that other human creation “Mathematics” the other is;- extrapolating backwards from the principle of an expanding universe (the Doppler effect). He, Stephen Hawking, had the humility is the opening chapter of his book “A Brief History of Time” Whereby a little old lady questioning Bertrand Russel’s lecture on a spherical planet earth. To which Bertrand Russel asked; “if the world is flat … what’s it standing on” … to which she replied “the back of a turtle”. Bertrand Russel then asked “what’s the turtle standing on?” She replied:- “Oh you are so cleaver young man … well! it’s turtles all the way down. Steven Hawking then suggests “Who’s to deny that the little old lady is wrong?????”

    I suspect Margaret’s pussy cats don’t give a damn about any of this … perhaps others as well!!!.


  83. Patrick: If you want to go ahead and deny that 50 million people worldwide have been killed in automobile traffic since WWII, you would have my full blessings and I would feel happy to finally have some attention paid to the matter.

    Yes, I’m not kidding. I would actually feel good if you denied it. I would give you a hug and say, “Thank you for denying this, Patrick. At least some human bioelectrical impulses were directed towards the matter.” You would still have that hug forthcoming from me even though I believe it was an eight-figure problem for me.

    • Sylvia says:

      Guru, it seems insane that 38,000 people lose their lives in car accidents each year in the U.S. leaving families so broken.
      I don’t know the answer but it makes me want to put the speed limit down to 35 mph.

    • Patrick says:

      Welcome back Guru, it is always nice to hear from you speaking for myself at least. And thanks even for the notion of giving me a hug for no matter what crazy reasons I don’t get so much of that here lol.

      Cars for sure are very destructive and in your case in quite a terrible way. I do not see Phil’s ‘solution’ as being anything of the sort but going deeper in the rabbit hole of nightmare technologies. There was a shocking case in the US this Spring where the self driving car ‘saw’ a white tractor trailer as the ‘white sky’ (another subject there) and the space under the trailer as if going under a bridge so the car speeded up and plunged under the truck and the ‘driver’ or is it the ‘passenger’ died. Meanwhile he was watching I think a Harry Potter video flying along at about 60 miles an hour. Literally what a mad world we are creating…………

      • Patrick: Thank you & I wasn’t really complaining about my lot in life when I posted the other day. In fact, I do have a lot to be thankful for in that I still grew up in an upper-middle class household in a relatively stable & peaceful country even without my mother’s help. This did buy me plenty of time to actively search around and to try to figure out exactly what was wrong with my life, leading me to understand some highly abstract (yet still very serious) problems which would have been impossible for me to figure out had I grown up in war-torn Aleppo, for instance.

        I know about that Tesla crash that happened in May. It was a lone 40 year-old “driver” and it happened either in Florida or Ohio; I don’t remember. Driverless cars aren’t going to be perfected for a long while. I was simply saying we are obviously heading in that direction and all those wounded beforehand will be shoved out of mainstream consciousness to make way for the new generation of travelers. I’ve accepted this as the way it is.

        Where the Jewish WW2 casualties are concerned, I was trying to convey that any publicity is better than no publicity at all even when it’s negative. Negative press sells more copies of anything rather than no press at all because some people become intrigued by the excoriated idea, regardless.

        OK, goodbye for now.

        PS. Hi Margaret

        • Daniel says:

          The difficulties with this type of denial, Guru, is that it comes with a certain type of hate that proved deadly throughout the years. It isn’t your regular all-publicity-is-good-as-long-as-they-spell-my-name-correctly, because it incites hatred toward Jews who historically suffered a great deal from such hatred, and because eventually that hatred turned into the greatest crime of the 20th century. It happened right in the heart of Europe, carried out by one of the most cultured, intelligent and educated people around, and so influenced world view and political realities in the western hemisphere to a large degree.

    • Anonymous says:

      It is the drivers lack of focus that causes 99.999% of car crashes.

      • Anonymous: Sure, you could say that. Also, a momentary lack of focus causes me to spill coffee once in a while. Almost meaningless consequence there, but a lack of focus in an automobile can mean death or permanent disability.

        How did the stakes become so high?

        Why does our economy demand that the stakes be so high on a daily basis?

  84. Daniel says:

    How is it that people complaining of being prevented ‘free speech’ never shut their yapper? Scroll back a couple of years, Patrick, does it look like any of your preoccupations and ruminations, abominable or offensive or ludicrous as they might have seen and been to the rest of us here, were prevented from being published? Your ideas of PI presumed suicides, Jewish holocaust and Jewish-everything-else, were heard loud and clear, again and again. And again once more.

    As you seem not to know, Gretchen, who for a very long time was very liberal with your comments, is using her editorial right (and in my opinion in this case – her editorial duty) just like any other publisher, including I’m sure some of your favorites.

    And by the way, Liberalism, which I think this blog is espousing to, isn’t absolute and rampant pluralism but a concept that holds, cherishes – and yes, if need be dictates – values. You not only ceased to respect those values but seriously and persistently breached them.

    • In a sense, yes a very strange sense, Daniel, one could say Patrick has been a very loyal person for two years by reifying the WW2 casualties into a state of modern awareness here on the blog even if through a series of nasty denials.

      If Patrick spent two years showing YouTube videos of muscle cars and Indy 500 races glorifying stunt driving along with denying any casualties as a result of such activities, a part of me would feel bemused and thankful for his loyally calling attention to the topic so much in the first place.

      • So! Guru: What’s the solution? I doubt that Sylvia’s solution would eliminate all road deaths..

        My feeling is we humans are heading towards out own extinction. I’d like to hope I am wrong … always a possibility


        • Phil says:

          Uber is already doing a live test of self driving cars in Pittsburgh. The federal government recently issued some guidelines about these cars. I think they might come into widespread use faster than expected, saving a lot of lives. Someone will be making
          a lot of money on this new technology, which is a strong motivating factor driving
          their development. I wonder if they will brake for small animals.

          • Phil: My feeling is:- that the self driving car is a long way for being implemented universally, for the very reason that not everyone is going to trade in the old car for a self driving one. Who then buys the one traded in?

            We are for ever getting involved in technology that I feel will eventually drive many of us crazy …. least-ways crazier than we already are. It is already indicative of all the remote devices that save getting up off our arses (asses) to even switch on the TV, and buttons on car windows to roll them up or down. Sooooooo!!! to make up for the normal energy required to do anything we now have Gyms to work off that surplus energy that on(ce upon a time), we did naturally.

            I’m tempted to call it:- ‘technology up our own arse (ass) holes’.

            There is a discipline out there called economics. I defined “economics” as the study of money flow. Now we’ve shifted it to mean controlling the money flow. We could abolish that discipline very easily. I guess I needn’t continue on since most will see where I am going with it.


            • Phil says:

              Young people are moving to cities and are less interested in car ownership, The first use of autonomous cars is expected to be large fleets operating in cities. Maybe in the future few people will own cars and we will simply share a network of public self driving cars.
              There is likely to be a tremendous improvement in safety and fuel efficiency, with less time stuck in traffic. There is always resistance to new technologies. You seem to enjoy computers and internet blogging where instant responses are possible and yet rail against modern technologies.

              • Phil: You are quite right; I was one of the first to indulge in technology and brought Patrick and Gentle Giant into the the then 20th century, first lending them a computer then encouraging them to computerized the office. BUT that is not to say that I don’t feel I see where all this is going. and strangely, not in hindsight.

                It was the same for me as a hippy going to Ibiza and renting a remote farm house on top of of hill for ten years, yet realizing at the time that I was a part of encouraging the destruction of the place with tourists and tourism. Equally, I feel we humans are the craziest creatures on the planet and not the most intelligent and yet actually like my intelligence. I tell Patrick he’s into his head and there has been no-one more into his head than me. It’s a sort of irony or paradox; not sure which, probably both. that I/we are such a contradiction.

                Equally the folly to search for other ‘intelligent crack pots’ on other planets and yet no-one was more into astronomy then me at school. I loved school and yet insist that schools are prisons for children. I am a major part of the very destruction of the planet I love. To quote Oscar Wilde “We each one kill the the one we love ……..”, in The Ballad of Reading Jail.

                It’s the complaining that I wish so dearly to totally stop and yet am not able to. I was a compulsive sex addict and yet knew it was a crazy addiction. I make a new years resolution every year to be more feeling-full and less into my head. Not even sure I accomplish any of it

                Finally: I’m such a ‘smarty pants’ but am unable to stop it. I have succeeded in some aspects. I love life, I love my Jimbo and yet still complain about him out of earshot. I love clear blue skies and sunshine, and know I should not sit too long in it … yet do. I know I am crazy, but have succeeded in not trying to prove it to others … I think ……

                Why do I try for perfection knowing it actually doesn’t exist?????? I don’t know. Yep! I actually do not know.


      • Daniel says:

        So good to see you in here Guru and thanks for the upbeat point of view. However, I think your analogy isn’t accurate enough.

        A correct analogy, in my opinion, would be if someone kept saying over and over again that automobile deaths not only never occur but that people who claim they do are liars who perpetuate their lies in order to shake down the public and the insurance companies and hide their own exploitation of, death mongering and evil intentions toward others, with the end game of controlling the world.

        • Daniel: I thank you for the welcome and if I was accused of what you explained it would simply leave me giggling a lot. In a certain way I would actually take all that as a compliment because it would portray me as being someone much more powerful than I ever thought I could be.

          • Daniel says:

            At first it did giggle, but eventually it got to me. In a way it recapitulated how I got interested in the subject and how I became touched with it in the first place. As a child, when all these survivors were around me, me and my friends did giggle quite a lot, had jokes about it and didn’t feel like it’s ours. My first major reaction was when I was 17 and saw this documentary with all that horrible footage – I rushed outside and threw up.

            Then, some 7 or 8 years later I came to LA for therapy. It was there that it gradually ‘grew’ on me, in hindsight because I had to face who my mother was in her relation to me, and deep, secret, mysterious and sad and at times neglectful fear that she carried around with her and silently transmitted to me.

            Also, one of my roommates in LA was a Brazilian guy of German origin. He was a very nice guy which I liked a lot and one day we got to talk about Hitler when he said that his parents have told him that at the beginning Hitler did good – which for sure he pretty much did. But of course I couldn’t help thinking how his parents got to Brazil, and where were they and what were they doing during the war, a habit I picked from an old artist I met when I was living for a few months in Berlin during the early 1980’s: he used to ask older people what were they doing during the Nazi regime. One time He pointed at this elderly lady who was sitting in the same cafe we were in telling me, “this one had a secure and important governmental job, she was going into apartment buildings making sure no Jews were working there gardening or cleaning, and especially that no one was consorting with them or God forbid having a man-woman relationship with them, contaminating the Arian bloodstream”.

            Around that time in LA I became drawn to watching documentaries which aired, if I remember correctly, mostly on A&E, and by then I began to be deeply touched by them. Gradually I felt more and more related to it all, more and more curious about it.

            I don’t want to be too long, so I’ll just end by saying that the pieces of information I learned, even the personal details, were just a small part of it. In hindsight, therapy and the internal process it started were crucial: I could have of course found all the information myself but without therapy I couldn’t have found myself.

    • Patrick says:

      Well Daniel in a way I know what you mean and have had that attitude myself to people who complain about the lack of ‘free speech’ or in another way the manner that celebrities complain about too much exposure while owing all the money they make to that very exposure. Still right now I AM being ‘censored’ by Gretchen you may or may not know how much it depends on how ‘quick on the draw’ Gretchen is. She can whip things out of there pretty fast. And to repeat I consider this a real ‘insult’ and actually a real dimuntion of the blog. Like I think guys like this 108morris108 is REALLY worth listening to on many many subjects not only on the ‘holocaust’ at all. See an example below if that does not get deleted. This has relevance to me I was hit by a car about 6 years ago and have some titanium in my shoulder anyway recently and around the time I arrived in Ireland in July the shoulder started to get more and more painful and noticeable, it started to worry me quite a bit. Anyway my brother and I located this well with spring water coming out of the ground and now after about 8 weeks of this no pain amazing how good it feels by comparison. And I put it down to that spring water it’s no wonder the ancient Irish worshipped wells and considered them religous sites. To me they are and should be

      • Daniel says:

        I’m glad your shoulder feels better and I hope it will remain so. It’s good that you’ve found a natural way to treat it – and I agree, natural, clean spring water can be wonderful. It’s no wonder practitioners used to send their patients to these springs as treatment all during the 19th century. All those places with the German name beginning with Bad _______ are testament to this. Who knows, maybe one of these days they’ll be back in fashion.

        Regarding Gretchen’s editorial policies – you’ve been warned several times and she specifically asked you, for example, not to post certain videos. And she did that by asking, without active editing. But you wouldn’t listen. Also, perhaps by now you can’t feel anymore how hurtful and outrageous your words were – not just unorthodox but truly hateful. I’m not sure one could accurately describe the boundary between being provocative and unorthodox on the one hand, which was acceptable, and what has crossed that boundary into the dark land of the unacceptable. Like pornography, even without defining it accurately you know when you come across it.

        I think that if you’re in touch with how troubling some of your ideas are to others you’d be aware that there might be a price to be paid and wouldn’t be so surprised and outraged. In any case, your right for free speech isn’t violated and you can write and publish your thoughts – it’s just that in Gretchen’s editorial capacity, strengthened by our requests, not on this specific blog.

        • Christopher S. Fite says:

          I wonder if Patrick has no one else to talk to, so he posts his views here.

          • theultimateguru says:

            Christopher, you do know that all of your posts are responding to what people said three years ago? Given all of the eventful things that have happened since then, it seems like ten lifetimes ago.

          • jackwaddington says:

            Christopher: I have done several Skypes with Patrick since he went back to live in Ireland and I felt he was where he felt he ought to be … but he still has a lot of regrets about this therapy and feels cheated.

            Yes, I do feel he unwittingly took it out of me first and then later Gretchen. I understand he is still able to read the blog but is not able to respond anymore. AND I feel that frustrates him somewhat.

            I have not idea who you are or if I met you at one of the retreats and perhaps you might have been one of those people that objected to some of the ways I behaved there.


  85. Phil says:

    I made use of my traveling primal box again today.
    I cried some more about visiting my mother with my father. This time the focus
    was more on him. “Make her get better” was the sad feeling and also “what about
    me”. Because we go to visit her but my father was seemingly unaware of my tremendous grief, sadness, and suffering. He just wasn’t seeing it that I could tell.

    I’ve been spending a lot of energy on improving my Spanish. I believe it’s already making a difference and if I can keep at it I may get it where I’d like.. I even practiced a little with my Spanish speaking co-workers. today.
    It probably represents a distraction as well, but at least towards a useful end.
    The key probably will be whether I can maintain enthusiasm for this project.

    • Larry says:

      Yes, having a passion for it and sticking to it through the grind and setbacks seems to be the difference between those who are successful at something and those who aren’t.

    • David says:

      Phil, great that you’re making headway with the Spanish. I try to go with whatever inspires me for however long the inspiration lasts and let that be my compass as much as possible. Sometimes it burns up pretty quickly, other times it carries me a long way. The Meetup group you’re in, can hopefully be successful in helping keeping the flame alive.

      • Phil says:

        I have many times intended to work diligently at Spanish but it was often the case through the years that my wife, unintentionally, has discouraged me. She is a native speaker and a high school Spanish teacher but unfortunately not a good teacher for me.
        What I have felt were excess corrections have ended up being a big discouraging factor.
        I still try to practice with her and hope to avoid that problem or better tolerate the corrections. My Meetup group now has 48 members, and although, so far, fewer than 5 show up for meetings, that does show the level of interest. I only really need one person who speaks better than me for practice. It’s helpful that I now have multiple ways I’m working to improve my skills with the language.

  86. Otto Codingian says:

    Not only will there be self-driving cars in the future, but PT will have been generally accepted as a daily ritual by the entire populace of the earth, and the energy that is produced by millions of tears and screams and moans will be channeled into powering the self-driving cars.

  87. Otto Codingian says:

    They won’t brake for small animals, more likely just for garage sales.

  88. Otto Codingian says:

    I spent a lot of time in my garage in my teen years, listening and repeating to 45’s on my rusty old 1950’s stereo, conjugating in the classroom, and I never really learned Spanish at all. Of course it never helped that there were very few spanish speakers to speak with, and i was too shy to do that anyways. whats the point? none, just waiting for the commericals to finish.

  89. Margaret says:

    > boy, my kitchen and bathroom are such a mess!! all the furniture upside down and full of toolboxes and other material, the nice old stone sink entirely disappeared, the floor has been opened up and is not entirely closed again as they put the pipes in there. dust and filth all over, and only a bit of water available at a small tab just an inch or so above the floor.
    > thank god the toilet is working, but so far the rest looks as if a hurricane passed through.
    > it was stressful to also watch out for the cats, did manage to keep them in the other rooms, but at some point I discovered also in the bedroom they had already removed some wood from the floor in one corner.
    > luckily the cats did not get into the large entrance there to the void between my floor and the ceiling from below, that would have been a disaster.
    > i managed to put some boxes and baskets on top of the hole just before the cats ventured over there, and will be even more vigilant from now on about stuff like that. not only for the cats, I could also break a leg in that kind of thing.
    > tomorrow morning they will be back, hope they leave it more or less in working order in the kitchen, and let’s see if they bring a nice new sink!!!
    > will miss the old soapstone one, but of course I do need a sink!!!
    > the plan was they would do the rest of the place on thursday and friday, but iI get the impression they want to keep going on with it, but the plan was definitely thursday and friday as then a girlfriend would come over to give me a hand with controlling the cats and the rest..
    > she did agree with the workers, so I guess I will have to stand my ground. after the kitchen is finished that is.
    > no heating as well now, hardly any water, certainly no hot water, and loads of dust and rubbish and disorder.
    > put some shut doors in two of the three cat doors, and a litter box inside, sigh, and have some cat candy for consolation at hand.
    > my brother promised me to come by tomorrow afternoon, although he had not planned coming over this weekend. i told him it was not necessary but also that it would be very nice. also warned him about the chaos and the dirt.
    > to be continued..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Work being done in your home can be very stressful. I remember when our kitchen was being remodeled and I had to wash dishes in the bath tub. The project took many more months than expected as the contractor had other jobs going on. The end result was good but I did not at all appreciate the process.

  90. Otto Codingian says:

    Coches sin conductor serán una mejora en la vida de las personas de raza blanca. La gente negra probable que sea necesario para conducir con los blancos para estar seguro.

  91. Otto Codingian says:

    Fui al médico hoy y mencionó que yo tenía una picazón en mi entrepierna. dijo tire hacia abajo los pantalones y todavía me siento violado. no le diga el señor Larry porque no le gusta tener demasiada información. Me encanta este Inglés al español traductor!

  92. Otto Codingian says:

    pero obviouslyamente el traductor no sabe el question markio that se putio in fronte del sentencio, cuando you putio un question markio at el endio of the sentencio.

  93. Phil says:

    The accident with the Tesla car was the driver’s fault. Tesla has sold cars with self driving features but the driver is supposed to be paying attention as the cars aren’t ready to fully drive on their own. A maybe questionable strategy by the Tesla company to introduce the technology in this way. Other companies are doing more rigorous testing before releasing anything.
    There seems to be a general consensus that the roll out of self driving vehicles will begin in 5 to 10 years Many car accidents are caused by human error and irrational driving behavior. Autonomous cars, when perfected, will still have accidents, but at a much lower rate.
    This technology is definitely coming and large industries will probably change and many people, such as taxis and truck drivers, will become unemployed. There is a lot of information on the internet about all of this, that I find interesting.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – yes and they have ‘apps’ now I dunno to know your way home from the coffee shop in the morning in case you forget or have Alzheimer’s or whatever. It seems people become more and more like machines and machines become more and more like humans. I imagine they are working on something like where we can get GPS directly into our brains or something. Does not seem like an appealing future to me at all. Just because it is ‘progress’ does not mean it is progress so to speak. I think the myth of progress is a big one it seems we are basically going backwards. Also it seems being around all these devices probably GIVES a person Alzheimer’s so lo and behold the same devices can HELP with Alzheimer’s…………….’progress’ I suppose

      • Phil says:

        I’ve usually been late getting on board with new technologies. I got my first cell phone within the last 5 years, but now use it all the time. Late getting a home computer too. I can certainly live fine without a lot of it.
        Another predicted thing is more widespread use of drones for business and consumers.. And what will happen when all our enemies can use drones against us?
        We will need good anti-drone technologies, I suppose.

  94. Margaret says:

    > Phil, slept poorly last night, and the first half of today was very stressful with loud drilling etc. going on, in the end I managed to lock up the two cats in the living room which helped me to stress just a little less, but still, everything full of copper pipes and other tricky stuff for me to trip on, and filth all over, and noise and uncertainty about where it is going. in the front part of the apartment which faces north it was pretty cold as well, in the back where they were working it was warm and summery…
    > but finally things for the moment worked out kind of peacefully.
    > have just been cleaning up for a few hours, and although I still have no regular water source, just the tiny tap down on a wall, and no heating, no hot water, things are partly back in place until monday, and all the materials more or less grouped together.
    > the nicest thing is they gave me an electrical heater for the time being, which will be very welcome in the evening and morning and all day long next week when the weather will be changing.
    > the not so good thing is that it still is a lot of work to be done, and they told me for the last couple of days it would be better not to have the cats around as they will have to work everywhere at once.
    > so we will have to move to one of the not so keen guest houses, friend or sister, will see, they seem both out of communication this weekend.
    > and then the last catch is that when it is all done, they still can’t switch it on before an official inspector has come and given his ok, which can take several days before they come after they are warned…
    > so probably another ten days or so at least camping with just a bucket of cold water and the electric water cooker to make it not so bad..
    > will have to figure out how to connect the washing machine with the little tap, I think it is possible, but will double check with my brother. then I can do some laundry and then change it back to just water supply…
    > so far all is not too bad, a lot of stress but I feel I did cope well with a difficult situation.
    > now of course moving the cats will be another stressful adventure, maybe just maybe we can stay here, but the poor cats will have to endure loud drilling in that case and Russian speaking all over, strange men everywhere..
    > and the furniture all moved around as well.
    > don’t know if it will be feasible to stay here, my worst fear is the cats getting under the floor and then being too scared to come out of their hiding place under that same floor but in the far corner from the room for example…
    > it is also hard to keep track of where they hide even when knowing in which room they should be, they are very good in becoming invisible..
    > oh well, will see how things develop..
    > one day at a time, and then one moment at a time.
    > am coping with all of this without any painkillers in the house, ha, so if I can do that, I should be able to go without in nice peaceful times as well, smiley!
    > M

  95. Guru, Welcome back to the blog but I have to say I don’t think it is true that you would be bemused should Patrick show the rest of us you tube videos of stunt drivers while denying that automobiles had caused any number of casualties. Nor do I think you would be thankful for even false or negative publicity. I don’t think that is the truth. What is the implication? That someone impacted by the Holocaust should be celebrating the dishonesty of a guy like Kollerstrom? Really? Gretchen

    • Oh brother, OK, uhmm….Do you remember when I once said that perhaps 10,000 books have already been published on the Jewish experience during World War II? Jim Kunstler (who happens to be Jewish himself) provided this number. Not to mention countless museums and other documentaries and films?

      Do you also remember when I mentioned that only 3 (yes three) books have covered the tens of millions of automobile fatalities since WW2 (never mind no museums or films or documentaries)? The reason I would celebrate Patrick’s denials of my experiences is simply that there has been such a desolate poverty of any information whatsoever, that even vicious denials represent a welcome relief from pure nothingness….a reification into the very fabric of existence, if you will.

      Granted, with help from guys like Werner Herzog and Google’s attention to self-driving cars, this horrible lack of sound information for those afflicted is slowly changing.

      Think of each book as an apple. If I have an apple cart with 10,000 obedient apples (verifying the WW2 Jewish experiences) and a few bad apples (denying those experiences), that’s still enormously better than trying to score your first dozen apples to begin with in the case of traffic collisions, is it not?.

      • Guru: I could well be wrong, but I get a sense that somehow you are angry/bitter that there is not more written about traffic fatalities. I suspect it is because of your own child-hood trauma on the matter.

        I am not sure that more books focusing on traffic fatalities or even more discussion, would help your (therapy) case.

        As I said I may well be wrong … but I would rather hear from you how it affected the baby …… USG. I feel that would be more informative to the rest of us on the blog, and be more helpful in terms of your therapy.

        I repeat … this is just my thought on the matter. I’d like to here more a bout how in baby-hood it affected you. Without a doubt to lose ones mother in childhood has got to be enormously traumatic.


      • jackwaddington says:

        Guru:    I could well be wrong, but I get a sense that somehow you are angry/bitter that there is not more written about traffic fatalities.    I suspect it is because of your own child-hood trauma on the matter. I am not sure that more books focusing on traffic fatalities or even more discussion, would help your (therapy) case.        As I said I may well be wrong … but I would rather hear from you how it affected the baby …… USG.     I feel that would be more informative to the rest of us on the blog, and be more helpful in terms of your therapy. I repeat … this is just my thought on the matter.     I’d like to here more a bout how in baby-hood it affected you.    Without a doubt to lose ones mother in childhood has got to be enormously traumatic. Jack THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented: “Oh brother, OK, uhmm….Do you remember when I once said that perhaps 10,000 books have already been published on the Jewish experience during World War II? Jim Kunstler (who happens to be Jewish himself) provided this number. Not to mention countless m” | |

    • Gretchen: I am going to ask a favor of you and discontinue this “10,000 books” conversation right now. Just don’t bother replying to my post. I would like this to end right here, thank you.

      I was hoping for a reasonably straightforward conversation, but I can see that creatures with serious, intractable mental illnesses are going to try to make this a messy affair. Maybe another time!

      • Quote:- “I was hoping for a reasonably straightforward conversation, but I can see that creatures with serious, intractable mental illnesses ………….”

        If indeed Guru you were hoping for a Private conversation … as opposed to commenting on a PUBLIC blog, then I suggest that you do it through ‘private email’ to Gretchen or the Institute.

        I also see from this post of yours that you are now applying Patrick type tactics like attempting to insult. I grant that I am a creature, AND that I may well have an intractable mental illness/es.

        However, in the nature of psychology, a la Freud, there is a chance that your comments and words carry a deeper meaning/feeling subliminally. It might be a good idea to investigate them.

        Since this is a PUBLIC blog … anyone is liable to jump in at any time over anything said on it. If you were to bear that in mind I feel it could help your discourse both here and privately.


  96. This whole matter of what is the “truth and what is ‘lies’ is tentative; as to almost reach the point of absurdity Patrick’s version of ‘truth and/or lies’, is something I am very skeptical of, since it seems that he has some axe to grind that is way, way too subliminal even for himself to fathom, so he dwells on the outside facors.

    There is one area that get to me (for whatever my personal biases might be), and that is the seeming lying that takes place with the police; especially in the area of police shootings and in particular black men. My opinion on the mater (and it IS only my opinion) is that the police mind-set is such that there are bad guys and good guys. They see themselves as the good guys, and it would seem that any one of color is automatically seen as a bad guy. I gather there are many in the US that even see Barack Obama as a bad guy.

    It is seen by those in power (legislator, by definition), are good guys. Dwelling on the good and bad nations is not fruitful for ones overall health as I see it. I do acknowledge much of what Patrick states about The British is on point. and feel (as Karl Marx noted) that most revolution merely replace that, that was revolted against.

    I contend that until such times as there is a total radical change from the way we humans are currently behaving, we are into our own demise. AND … I am part of the problem. It is just this one aspect of human neurosis:- the proclivity to “DEFEND”, mainly our ego. We seem to be able to see quite clearly the foibles of the other guy. It’s ourselves that we seemingly are so blind to. To quote my idol WS “It is not in our stars dear Brutus, but in ourselves that we are underlings”.


  97. I posted this comment some couple of hours ago; meantime see the last of Patrick’s comments was deleted and it appears mine with it. Gretchen:- should you feel this response of mine is also inappropriate … go ahead and delete it once again.

    This whole matter of what is the “truth and what is ‘lies’ is never definitive; as to almost reach the point of absurdity. Patrick’s version of ‘truth and/or lies’, is something I am very skeptical of, since it seems that he has some ‘axe to grind’, that is way, way too subliminal even for himself to fathom, so he dwells on outside factors.

    There is one area that gets to me (for whatever my personal biases might be), and that is the seeming lying that takes place with the police; especially in the area of police shootings and in particular, black men. My opinion on the matter (and it IS only my opinion) is that the police mind-set is such that there are bad guys and good guys. They see themselves as the good guys, and it would seem that any one of color is automatically seen first, as a bad guys. then has to PROVE they are not.

    Dwelling on the good and bad nations is not fruitful for ones overall health, as I see it. I do acknowledge much of what Patrick states about The British is on point. and feel (as Karl Marx noted) that most revolution merely replace that, that was overturned.

    I contend that until such times as there is a total radical change from the way we humans are currently behaving, we are into our own demise. AND I am part of the problem. It is just this one aspect of human neurosis:- the proclivity to “DEFEND”, mainly our ego. We seem to be able to see quite clearly the foibles of the other guy. It’s ourselves we seemingly are so blind to. To quote my idol WS “It is not in our stars dear Brutus, but in ourselves that we are underlings”.


  98. Patrick says:

    Gretchen – you are getting ‘worse’ this last one I put on had to do with the British Empire and it’s big connection with slavery, the Jews had only a part role in that but that goes too!! You actually really do surprise me I would never imagined you could be that ‘bad’ But bad you are in terms of it seems your absolute close minded and biased clannish to an extreme degree behaviour. Even Jack !!! imagine says here I am ‘on point’ about the British Empire I mean for maybe one of the few times what I say is acceptable to Jack but to you it has to be deleted.

    You have shown yourself to me in a very bad light I have a hard time even imaging someone so biased but there you have it you have shown it to me.I would never have thought it could be esp from someone who makes a living from the slogan ‘all feelings/thoughts are valid’ well some of them are not. I will try to be charitable here and put it down to you being severly intellectually challenged maybe from a life time of listening to people maybe your brain has kind of gone to cauliflower salad or something. In all honesty I use to think that about therapists how could they listen to all this crap year after year so maybe you have succumbed. I suspect and could say something worse but that will have to do for tonight.

    Now will this get deleted and if so on what grounds. Maybe I should be more like Jack and say ‘ok Gretchen just delete whatever you like’ What a kiss ass and an aggressive viper by turns. And we know whose ass he kisses (authority) and whom he attacks (someone who bailed him out several times from quite serious situtations) Oh well I live and I learn (hopefully)

    • quote:- “And we know whose ass he kisses (authority) and whom he attacks (someone who bailed him out several times from quite serious situtations) Oh well I live and I learn (hopefully)”

      It seems you don’t live and learn. You obviously don’t have a clue why it was deleted and yet it was repeated to you several times.. One question remains unanswered, and I have asked several times?:- Why did you bail me out (as you put it)??????

      Me thinks, because I was very, very useful to your bottom line.

      It never came across as compassion to me, and I felt for years, you actually resented a huge part of me. Reflect back … Why did your partner want out, and leave?????

      I know why cause he told me; after leaving the company … we kept in contact for a time


  99. Leslie says:

    “The way we talk to our children becomes their inner voice.” Peggy O’Mara
    “A baby’s cues are trustworthy; there is no discrepancy between the feeling and its expression.”
    Kevin Nugent & Abelardo Morell
    2 quotes I like.

  100. Sylvia says:

    Leslie and Jack, here’s a little girl wanting to get her way, feeding the dog a treat and she tells her mother to settle down and talk nice to her. Sweet child.

  101. Patrick says:

    This from the Guardian which as I say I don’t like anymore mostly at to ‘opinion’ but it is a decent enough newspaper for actual ‘news’. Anyway ahead of this much talked about ‘debate’ between Clinton and Trump who shows up in NY and meets BOTH of them well our trusty Satanyahu to remind them of who the REAL ‘minder’ is. He is who they BOTH have to REALLY answer to…………….most of the rest of it is just ‘bread and games’ for the deluded masses. I said about 6 months ago this was in reality a contest to see who could be the best President for Israel and so it seems to be turning out………… to WHY they have to answer to him that takes quite a bit of time and study and it goes in WW2 and beyond and not something that can be conveyed to the likes of Jack who though not exactly young anymore might as well belong to the twitter generation of endless distraction and attention seeking and short attention spans


  102. This post is for Daniel:
    I am posting to let you know I did read both of your earlier posts regarding Europe and the older woman you saw in the café who, as you described through your friend, “had a secure and important governmental job, she was going into apartment buildings making sure no Jews were working there gardening or cleaning, and especially that no one was consorting with them or God forbid having a man-woman relationship with them, contaminating the Arian bloodstream”.

    I am only verifying to you at this point that I read everything so you wouldn’t wonder whether I simply ignored them.

    I wish there was a checkmark that I could fill out which signals that I had read someone’s posts during those times really don’t have a response I can share.

  103. Patrick says:

    I am a sucker for a good contest as much or maybe more than most people. I remember as a kid being very interested and the kind of ‘can’t wait’ feeling when Cassius Clay was about to fight Sonny Liston. So I am up for this Clinton v Trump thing I might even stay up here to watch it in the middle of the night. I just seems a pity though it is not much of a ‘real’ contest more like World Wide Wrestling with Satanyahu as the referee and master of ceremonies. I think the fact that this dude shows up in NY the day before and meets with BOTH of them is pretty telling. Can you imagine ANY other world leader having the balls and the access to do that. But he can and can do a lot more truth be told. Any result will be fine by him as both wrestlers are spoken for the rest of us can get our cheap thrills.

    As I have said before I consider Trump a very flawed candidate still I am ‘for’ him again Hillary or Killary as some call her. I really do wonder though if she can even make it through 90mins with no commercial breaks (what is happening to America no commercial breaks?) I do believe she has massive health problems but I suppose she will be drugged up to the eyeballs and maybe even higher so I just wonder if she even can hack it at all. It’s very sad really that she feels she has to do this to herself but let’s see I at least am intrigued by this aspect of it. My ‘cheap thrills’ I suppose.

    Another reason Jack that I can’t and won’t ‘answer’ you is I am sure I would fall foul of the ‘censor’ have you thought of that? Just about all of your questions or at least any honest attempt at an answer would be ruled in-admissable and probably would be deleted. So another reason to pass on that.

    • Patrick: Your last paragraph is a bit of a delusion, I contend. The censoring has nothing to do with pointing out ideas in someones book. BUT I will not go further. My feeling is that subliminally (though could be wrong) is that your answer might cause you to have to re-evaluate some of your prior statements.

      Unless you actually try … you’ll never know.


  104. What anonymous posted a short while ago is prompting this response from me.

    I am going to substitute guns for high-velocity automobiles.

    Let’s pretend for a second that we have an imaginary society which requires 200 million citizens to briefly put a loaded gun to their heads each day. All they have to do is point the gun at their temple and rest their finger, but not pull, the trigger for a few minutes each day. The citizens can then put the gun down for the day and go home. This mass action is required to keep this imaginary society’s economy moving each day.

    A few thousand out of these 200 million gun holders slip up and have a nervous twitch, or maybe slippery fingers, killing or maiming themselves in the process.

    Do we blame the individuals in this case? Or do we blame the larger system for requiring such a precariously risky means of lurching society forward to begin with?

    To me, the answer is obvious and it’s also why high-tech companies are frantically trying to make driverless cars go mainstream.

    • And in case one might think I am being overly dramatic by comparing driving a car to pointing a loaded gun at yourself, all one has to do is drive down a two-lane highway and imagine what it would be like to have your steering wheel turned a mere two inches to the left as an oncoming semi tractor-trailer approaches in the opposite lane. Almost as easy to kill yourself as pulling a gun trigger.

      Everyday, hundreds of millions of people are required to be in these precarious situations where there is little to no margin for error so everyone goes to work and our economy hums along. That’s why I have some deep suspicions and believe it’s cheap and sleazy to lay the blame entirely on the individual. Do people really deserve the death penalty for something as easy as dropping a cup of coffee? Our government spends several millions of dollars to prevent convicted murderers from such a fate, after all.

    • Guru: I see little clarity to either your analogy or conclusion.

      My take on gun violence is a simple one … Repeal the 2nd amendment to the constitution.. The solution to traffic fatalities, at least in the number of them, is to ban automobiles and everyone travel by public transport, and reduced speeds limits considerably

      I don’t see either happening.


  105. Phil says:

    Before cars people lived in towns or cities where their jobs were. The development of cars allowed commuting and living in suburbs so as to get away form bad neighborhoods.
    The “system” didn’t require anything, it evolved to where we are now and is/was a matter of choice. The way you put it sounds like another conspiracy theory.

    • Phil says:

      In many places you could still live without a car. In New York City owning a car is a hassle and you can do fine without one. Do you have a car and drive? Are you a cab driver or something? Where I live having a car is necessary but it was my choice to move here.
      Going back to what anonymous said, accidents are mostly caused by driver behavior. Exceeding the speed limit, aggressive driving due to impatience, road rage, driving while intoxicated. Looking at a cell phone and texting. How many people actually obey the speed limit? We choose to exceed it.
      Automated machines won’t become inpatient, they will follow the speed limit.
      But there is no “system” forcing us to do anything like driving a car. It all developed by choice and remains so up to this time.

      • Phil: I feel very offended by your arguments and I also feel there is something wrong with your logic.

        That’s all I am going to say because this would become too much of an emotional drain for me to continue.

        I am only typing this out to let you and the blog know I am not bobbing my head in agreement with you or whoever this shady anonymous character is.

        • Phil says:

          Sorry I have offended you.
          Just pointing out that we have cars because we like them, or at least I do. The same with cell phones and everything else we have.
          I can remember the wonderful feeling of freedom when I first got my drivers licence.
          I didn’t have a car but my father would let me use his and then I could go anywhere, within reason.
          Do your ideas on this have some relation to your trauma?
          Thinking on this while driving my car to work just now. it’s a short drive and I feel
          there is little likelihood of an accident.
          I hope you won’t go away Guru. Saying it’s an emotional drain seems too easy.

          • Phil says:

            I haven’t posted anything anonymously recently, so that was someone else.

          • Phil: To answer your previous question, I have roughly 500,000 miles of driving experience under my belt. I have not had a ticket or collision of any kind for 22 years now.

            • Phil says:

              It’s too bad that not everyone is as safe and careful a driver as you seem to be.

              • Phil: My reason for answering your question is that, even with an impeccable driving record, I still don’t agree with either you or our dubiously brave “Anonymous” blogger with the surface assessments being made.

                I could have been hit and hurt or killed many times over the years. Lots of harrowing near misses.

                • Phil says:

                  You don’t feel you have chosen to be a driver?
                  I could be still living in a large city getting around by public transportation.
                  After a few years of living that way I bought a car because of the freedom it gave me
                  but not out of necessity.

                  • Phil: I’m not going to expect this statement to be well understood by many people, but here goes: I believe your “choice” question needs to be re-phrased under a totally different framework of thought in order to begin approaching the actual issues at hand.

                    • Phil says:

                      Why not re-phrase the question under the framework you have in mind and then explain it. So, is that why you won’t answer my question?

                    • Guru: I have in the recent past, suggested to you that the issue of “traffic fatalities” is a secondary one. I feel that the real issue for you is you lost your mother in early child-hood. How she died is secondary in-so-far as It was perhaps some years later that you became aware of how it happened .

                      Seemingly, you do not wish to discuss how in your current life or how it affected you in your child-hood. I suspect that to do so would be extremely painful and understandably so.

                      This issue seems to be dominant on the blog at the moment, I feel is not going to resolve anything for anyone. That anyone wishing to discuss it, is up to you/them. I have no problem with it, except that it seems to be going no-where..


  106. Patrick says:

    Here is a quote from today’s Irish Times

    ‘with a crowd of 34,445 turning up at Croke Park, the highest attendance ever for the women’s football All-Ireland finals. And not even a day that produced four seasons of weather by half-time could deter them’

    I am drawing attention to the ‘four seasons of weather by half-time ‘ comment. That is what we have here climate fucking chaos (the acronym is CFC)……………weather manipulation is clear or should be to people who have always been sensitive to the weather. But many are not amazingly enough. The global brainwashing program goes ahead fairly undisturbed. Four seasons of weather in one day is far from normal but IS becoming ‘normal’ around here……………

    • Phil says:

      Many people don’t believe in climate change because it isn’t necessarily noticeable.
      But apparently the last few years have been some of the warmest on record. I’ve understood that scientists predict more extreme weather patterns as another result of
      global warming. The weather is changing but not by intentional manipulation.
      Imagine a fish purposely poisoning his own tank to kill all the fish, including himself.
      So are we to believe that chem trail pilots are purposely polluting to sicken and kill people including themselves, and governments are directing this? What a crazy thing to believe. Even the crazy ISIS people mostly want to live, except maybe for suicidal bombers.

      • Patrick says:

        Phil – it might SOUND ‘crazy’ especially to someone who is way too lazy and imbued with conventional thinking to extend themselves in any way. Their or your choice as the case maybe

        • Phil says:

          I don’t know if we’ve identified a conspiracy theory you don’t believe in.
          I get the feeling I could cook one up today, and by tomorrow you’d subscribe to it.
          It would have to be under a different name though, as you wouldn’t believe anything I say, or just about anything anyone else says here.
          It seems your main reason for being on the blog is to be oppositional.

  107. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > yes, I found it even hard to imagine it was actually these white trails from the planes that were meant to be part of the vicious setup.
    > I remember how as a small child I already used to love looking up to the sky and seeing these white trails growing, and then slowly dissipating , and occasionally a smaller plane would write something in the sky!
    > even back then I already knew those high planes trails are merely formed of vapour cristallizing up there. the smaller planes probably used something different to write their m message in a lower part of the sky, but it did only happen on very few occasions.
    > don’t know who comes up with stuff like that, maybe they heard some rumours about actual spraying wiht small (metal?) partickles occasionally to create rain fall but that is not so common luckily as it does indeed not sound healthy probably. as far as I know it is sometimes done to either avoid more rain in an area the clouds are moving to, which is already getting flooded for example, or to induce rain in areas that badly need it. but I personally do not find it a good idea but that is my only very partially informed feeling more than a strong opinion. but they fly just above those clouds and definitely are not those trails way up there.
    > M

  108. Sylvia says:

    Jack, I hear what you say about personal loss. But I would think it still adds salt to the wound to be reminded that losing so many on the hi-way still, with no real uprising about it and no good solutions is hard to take.

    • Sylvia: Not only is there no uprising about it, but I routinely receive dishonest, shitty, and offensive questions/comments along the way.

      What if I asked the descendants of the Jews who died during WW2, “Why did your ancestor choose to stay in Germany and not leave? They could have left, you know! Perhaps they should have looked at their own choices instead of the Third Reich”

      Or how about if I asked the friends and relatives of the 9/11 folks, “Why did you choose to work in tall skyscrapers or sensitive military installations? You really didn’t have to choose to work in such risky areas and make yourselves such a tempting target. Oh well, you reap what you sow!”

      I don’t think it takes an active imagination to realize such questions or comments would be horribly offensive to them and that’s why Anonymous and Phil’s comments riled me up a bit, as well.

      • Phil says:

        My questioning has to do with your choices in light of your feelings about cars, not any choice your mother might have made. An honest reaction to your talk about being trapped or forced by the “system” to use cars.

        • Phil says:

          It appears to me from your last comment that when you talk about traffic deaths, cars, and attention given to the issue, you are really somehow talking about the trauma of the loss of your mother and I should be sensitive to that. For that reason it’s a good discussion and I’m glad you bring it up but wish you could be more direct about it.

      • Guru: Easy answers to complex questions. I had a friend that did flee Germany at the onset of the The Third Reich. Leaving all his possessions, the family wealth, and family.

        We are so seemingly, competent and confident at solving other peoples problems … the expense of solving our own … IMO.


    • Sylvia: I disagree with you that it is rubbing salt into the wound. If have it correctly the way out of Primal Pain is by going back through it, feeling and expressing it. All else is putting off what needs to be done and felt.

      I see no way that publicizing “Traffic Fatalities”, or even starting a discussion on it, will resolve the problem. It’s convenient to hope that either technology or legislation will do much to reduce it IMO.

      However, I concede that none of us like pain and the initial re-action is to stop it by all means possible.


      • Sylvia says:

        Hey, Guru and all of us are constantly being reminded that bad, maybe preventable things are happening on the road. Do we have a national day saying, “look at the people we are losing.” If Aliens had abducted 8,000 people a day I think we would notice. I think that Guru’s take on the traffic situation is part of the feeling and not separate from it, wherever it leads.

        • Sylvia says:

          I’m going to put that 8,000 alien abduction as annual for California, not daily, sorry.

          • Sylvia says:

            In the interest of being more accurate, I see that the fatal car collisions in Calif. has decreased over the years. When hearing about it in the 70’s it was nearly 8,000. I see that it has improved to about 3,000 per year. I feel better about that.
            Be careful out there, y’all, wherever you are.

  109. Larry says:

    It is said the truth will release you. But it sure hurts. I sure could use a lie.

    There is a woman, far over the sea.
    Standing and waiting, praying for me.
    Here I lie sleeping, a girl by my side.
    Who am I hurting, each time I lie?

    Lie to me, lie
    Lie to me, lie

    There is a woman, trying hard to be brave.
    The way that I hurt her, has made her afraid.
    Things that I’m doing, are breaking her heart.
    Still she’s pretending, that we’ll never part.

    Lie to me, lie
    Lie to me, lie
    I don’t care what people may say, I know everybody lies.
    I’m not trying to hurt my love, I’m only trying to get by.

    There is a woman, far over the sea.
    Standing and waiting, praying for me.
    Here I lie guilty, a girl by my side.
    Who am I hurting, each time I lie?

    Lie to me, lie [Repeat: x4]

  110. Patrick says:

    I did manage to see most of the ;’debate’ in terms of a boxing match I didn’t think either landed a knock out punch so to speak. I thought Trump was better but then again I would I suppose. I think he is hampered in that though he is rightly critical of the huge mess Obama/Clinton have made of the Middle East he cannot really to my way of thinking be ‘radical’ enough about what has gone wrong. So he falls between two stools a bit.

    But what struck me more was the instant analysis afterwards on NBC and how QUICKLY they decide who won and who lost and according to them Hillary ‘won’ and won big time. I could and did not see that at all. Then go to the Guardian and Huffington Post the worst of all and just ridiculous headlines about how awful Trump was and how great Hillary did. But it seems in terms of manipulating people it is very important to get the first hit in , establish what happened RIGHT AWAY. Your ‘version’ of what happened. This reminds me also of 9/11 and 7/7 in London by noon the ‘story’ is spun and then established as to what happened. It seems in human psychology it is then quite rare for people to change their minds after that and it seems that is particularly true if there is ‘trauma’ involved as in the case of 9/11. Also people do not want to change their minds as that means an admission that they were wrong

    I feel this works in personal trauma also something terrible happens our brains QUICKLY ‘decide’ what happened or how to deal with it and that then become a kind of frozen response that usually literally lasts a lifetime. But it is interesting to me to see how that kind of human responce to trauma is ‘understood’ by the manipulators of public opinion and they quite consciously use that I mean in the sense of establishing the ‘truth’ of a situation so FAST and then it becomes a kind of frozen reality in people’s minds. People ‘knew’ who did 9/11 by about noon on the same day……….except of course they did not ‘know’ they only know what they were told and for most people that’s it nothing budges that. And I suppose that is really true about personal trauma and why the ‘job’ of going back and ‘re-thinking’ this stuff can be so messy and difficult.but to me it is worth doing both on a personal level and also on a more ‘political’ level. And for me at least they both go together I think it is a mistake to think it ONLY applies on a personal level. Real change involved all levels of the brain and personality which I think has sort of been a problem in ‘psychology’ as it mostly tries to keep it to ONLY the ‘personal’ level.

    • Patrick: I do have to agree that it’s often a mistake to only apply psychological problems to a personal level when there could be larger societal forces quietly working against the individual in the background.
      In society’s eyes one individual is nothing more than an easily expendable speck, so in a sad way it’s better and more efficient for society to have the individual slowly destroy him or herself in a world of self-recrimination instead of casting a firm spotlight on a society’s shortcomings which may be actively working against the individual.

      • Patrick says:

        Yes Guru I agree……….and I think primal often has the unfortunate effect of NOT looking at the broader picture because there is this sort of fear like ‘it will take away my feeling’ well maybe it should then rather than being stuck in repitition mode forever and ever. Primal is good but by far not the ONLY thing and by making it the only thing a lot is lost imo……. and forever ‘trying to feel’ about something is very close to drug addict behavour.

    • Quote: “Also people do not want to change their minds as that means an admission that they were wrong”. Does that even apply to you??????? You seemingly always think you are right and that everyone else is wrong.

      On another aspect …. when did you become so expert on psychology. Give us a bit of background on that one… !!!!!

      The debate ….. I totally disagree with you, but then we all know what you feel about Trump.


  111. Patrick says:

    Dr Judy Wood who I think wrote THE book that explained what happened on 9/11 talks about this………….she said at the end of that day her mother was skeptical of the official ‘story’ her father was not and she says so it has remained to this day 15 years later. So she says getting the FIRST version out is very important if you want to manipulate how people will think about it Dr Wood herself felt it was ‘impossible’ for the official version to be correct and she also has followed on that track, Anyway just a few thoughts of ‘instant reactions’ and how they set us up for a long long time afterwards. Below is the link the Huffington Post put on now about the debate. That ‘newspaper’ rag really annoys me it’s a bad sign for a ‘paper’ like that to have these kinds of headlines for months and months every day and really is just total propoganda I am surprised it does not disgust people totally

  112. Patrick says:

    Phil – you might find this interesting as it touches on quite a few of these things, chemtrails global warming and even the election. I like this guy just seems like some young dude who sort of thinks for himself

  113. Patrick says:

    This is another one by the same guy, I like the background music on this………….

  114. Patrick says:

    It just occurs to me now the way Margaret describes seeing the planes leaving the vapor trails in the sky. I had the same thing I used to love watching that and the kind of magical way the trail ‘appeared’ a bit behind the plane and later ‘dissapeared’ a bit back from the plane. And it seems to connect now to this thing of the FIRST story being always the one believed…………….and this is used quite consciously I believe in the case of chemtrails. We THINK we know what they are because well we saw them long long ago and why of course it is the same thing happening now……… problem of course though it is NOT the same not the same at all. But our brains are wired to think and feel that it is and that is how we operate and the people that manipulate these things are very aware of that ‘give them some similarlity to their childhood, that should do it’ and it does. One way it is not the same now in the spraying operation there is not that ‘gap’ before the trail appears it shoots right out of the plane and the biggest difference is it does not dissapear is stays for hours and spreads out and gradually whitens the whole sky. So nothing really to do with that childhood memory but it is comforting and reassuring to think so and I only wish it was true. Also it seems to me being able to separate that similarity from childhood to the present day reality might even be considered ‘progress in therapy’ as it involves being able to see the present more for what it is and not just a shadow of some childhood memory.

  115. Sylvia says:

    I also watched ‘the debate’ in the split screen format showing Trump and Hillary looking like they were standing right next to each other instead of the several feet apart they actually were. It fooled me to where when he became so animated and provoked, I fully expected him to reach over and choke her.
    I thought she did a good job.
    Saw a little of the Mexican TV’s news report and some were saying Mrs. Clinton looked ‘presidencial y Trump incoherente.’

    • Sylvia, you might like this debate comment I plucked:
      “Actually all presidential debates are split screen. But in this case, it was pure magic. It was like watching a mom with a patient but meaningful raised eyebrow waiting for her toddler to wind down after a sugar high.”

    • Phil says:

      I thought Hillary won for several reasons. First of all in the second part of the debate Trump went on a long rant and seemed totally out of control, over his time limit etc. It seemed like he had really been provoked.
      He again told the outrageous birther lie and the other one about being against the Iraq war. I was glad that he was rightly pressed on these issues. Also Hillary hit him hard about not revealing his tax return and on the birther issue etc. She was clearly very well prepared and presidential. Trump to me came across as very angry and incoherent. It would be hard to imagine him as president.
      He will get the angry white guy vote but that’s not enough to win the election. Trump did not press on the email issue, she got off easy on that. It seemed clear to me she won.

  116. Margaret says:

    > I agree with Sylvvia, about the debate.
    > Trump was very evasive, full of himself, boasting really, but avoided answering questions and his arguments were sloganesc, had no real specific content at all, just attempts for demagogy.
    > Hillary remained calm and concentrated and responded with specific factual information, I think she did very well, much bettre than I expected.
    > for me she was a clear winner, as in intelligence against boasting shallowness and nastiness.
    > M

    • Margaret: I had a similar take on the debate as you. The great moment for Hilary I though, was when she just simply admitted that the private server was a mistake and added no rider. I feel and hope it has put to bed the email question about Hilary.


  117. David says:

    Phil, Margaret and Silvia,

    I watched the highlights of the debate and agree with all of you – and the majority of political pundits – that Hillary was the obvious winner. While not as obnoxious as he has been in the past in his campaign, Trump was often incoherent, going off on rants, which according to “fact checkers” contained many untruths, and was unable to reign in his tenancy to try and bully and cajole when criticised. Hillary was unflappable and clearly the better prepared and more lucid speaker. Surely the majority of Americans must have the greater confidence in her as President. But amazingly, there will be those who saw something completely different in this debate and will have been cheering on Trump and seen it as his victory. It’s perplexing to me that he’s got as far as he has and that the presidential race is as close as it is. Watching his rally’s on TV it got to the point where I wasn’t watching him anymore so much as I was watching his supporters. Because it started to fascinate me as to what sort of person thinks Donald Trump is great and how can there be so many of them. I can only hope that Hillary will go from strength to strength in these debates and clinch it. It will be a great thing for America to go from it’s first black president to it’s first female president.

    • Donald Trump’s meteoric rise was made possible by the disintegration of the Republican party. He saw opportunity in the splintering chaos of the Republican party and took full advantage of it.

      • David says:

        Guru, I’m not sure to what extent the Republican party has disintegrated as you say, but Trump certainly had slim opposition in the Primaries. His presidential campaign looks like an extension of a huge power trip he’s been on probably for most of his life. Witness how he can’t stand to be contradicted or criticized.

        • Patrick says:

          I am not sure about ‘slim opposition’ one of the Bush’s etc several other governors of states etc etc. I liked the timing of the way he dispatched Ted Cruz Trump referred to stories (and pictures) strongly suggesting Ted Cruz’s dad hung out with Lee Harvey Oswald and not only ‘hung out’ but was part of the ‘sheep dipping’ of Oswald as a Castro supported (mabye showing my age here). He brought this out one morning by that afternoon Cruz was GONE! gone from the race which shows me the story was only too true. The regular media never talked hardly at all about this but I did notice that. They have never spoken about it since either. Nothing would surprise me about this race and I think Clinton is far from being in the clear esp as regards her health. She has serious health problems

          • David says:

            There were other Republican nominees who impressed me more than Trump, not that that would be difficult. I was referring to how easily his opposition seemed to capitulate and how little of a challenge they seemed to offer, from what I saw of the coverage we had over here.

      • Guru: I’m inclined to agree with you on this one.

        The extremes of socialism and the benevolent dictator is a contradiction of terms. Once in power they will never give it up … it’s too comfy.

        The opposite, liaise faire business is fine whilst no business is larger than 3 employees. After that it should be an employee run business. The conglomeration of big business is about as out of touch with people as big government.


      • Phil says:

        I don’t know that the republican party is disintegrating as they still may hold congress and hold more power at state levels. Donald Trump is a talented populist con man who has captured people’s attention. He is also very adept at getting free media coverage.
        If he ultimately fails I wonder if there will be more candidates of his type, or if is he one of a kind.

    • Phil says:

      Trump was somewhat effective when he spoke about trade deals bad for American workers, I thought. He is clearly trying hard to win Ohio and Michigan which are important states for his chances.
      What is amazing to me is there are polls showing that Americans think Clinton is less honest than Trump. To me, Clinton bends the truth about an average amount for a politician. She is also a bit overly secretive, but that may be because of conservatives attacking her relentlessly over many years. On the other hand, Trump’s lies are outrageous. Counts have been made and I have seen figures of over 50% of his statements being lies. His supporters don’t seem to mind, which is astounding to me.
      I have met some Trump supporters who seem very angry.. One fellow at the gym was ranting about how the “charity” has to stop. We, as a country, are giving our wealth away, according to him. Another seems into conspiracy theories. Clinton has a huge health problem she is covering up and other stories along those lines. Trump appeals to fans of conspiracy theories and people angry about their lot in life. But I don’t see how Trump would fix anything for these people I guess there are many more people like this than we might expect. Also people loyal to the republican party no matter who the candidate might be.. If Trump supported the kind of policies I favor, I still couldn’t vote for him.
      He just isn’t qualified He just won’t provide the right leadership and isn’t actually interested in policy. He just hits on issues that get his supporters excited. He has never held an elective office or even worked in government.

      • David says:


        Yes, it’s incredible that his supporters would not mind his overt lies. It’s like they’re following his lead that whatever it takes to get him where he wants to go is OK. And I’ve read fact checkers that put his “lie count” at higher than 50%.

        You are of course closer to it all in US. From what you say here about his supporters, it sounds like a very similar mentality to those who voted for Brexit here in the UK, which has been more exposed since the Leave campaign won. The main issue was immigration, anger about a perception of others coming over here and taking what is rightfully theirs. Since the result, immigrants have been openly told in the streets “we voted to leave so why haven’t you left?”. There have been hideous physical assaults on foreigners, when the assailant, for example just heard someone speaking in a Polish accent. It just looks like Brexit has empowered some of the sickest people in the country to act out their hatred in racially targeted attacks.

    • David says:

      Sorry Sylvia, I see I misspelled your name.

      • Sylvia says:

        No problem, David. The mentality of hate you speak of in the Brexit movement I think is alive and well here too as we can see in the deplorable basket of Trump supporters as they exhibit violence at his rallies. What with their explosive temper it doesn’t bother them that someone with the same temper can control nuclear power. Maybe they don’t care what happens so long as they can vent hatred. Kaboom!

  118. Phil:
    I was thinking about your questioning being forced to participate in America’s automotive culture and I came up with several interesting points in my mind,

    The most mind-blowing one for me, though…
    If it hadn’t been for the automobile I would likely never have been born. Both of my parents lived hundreds of miles apart from each other before they met, and they both lived hundreds of miles from the graduate school they met. Strictly speaking they could have chosen a bus to go to school (which still qualifies as road transport anyway), but I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

    If it weren’t for the automobile my parents wouldn’t have met and I wouldn’t be here. It’s a stark reminder all its own how deeply entrenched the automobile is in American life. I likely owe my very existence to it!

  119. Daniel says:

    Only when I came to LA did I learn how integral and important automobiles are to American culture, partly because unlike in other cities all around the world, the US included, in LA one needed a car to go anywhere. It later made sense to me to think about it as part of American culture of going west, of vast distances, of freedom, of journey as a state of mind.

    But I agree with Guru – every day millions are getting into innocent contraptions that once started and driven become potential ballistic missiles that may or may not hit a target on that particular day. I also agree, very much so, that the penalty for mistakes shouldn’t be death or maiming. That means that governments should provide drivers the best with traffic conditions at their disposal. For example, it should be obvious that governments will do its utmost to provide a functioning and viable mass transit systems, that roads are equipped with the best available safety features, that tax breaks are given to companies who introduce safety features into automobiles (some companies are integrating systems into their new cars that will alert the driver if they’re getting too close to another vehicle, if there is an unplanned change of course that will take them unwillingly to another lane, etc.)

    The second point I think Guru is bringing up is, for me, the more interesting one: Why do we accept this? Is the public anesthetized because traffic accidents are so prevalent? Is the public familiar with the odds and accepts them? Or perhaps it doesn’t have a real alternative?

    I don’t know how things are traffic-wise in the US these days, but Guru’s analogy of guns is an apt one, for in what looks so strange and crazy from the outside the US has become a ballistic republic where civilians own the most guns per capita of any country on earth, where tens of thousands die from gun violence annually, and toddlers shoot someone at least once a week. In some ways it doesn’t look as if America is very concerned about its citizens’ safety.

    Where I live traffic accidents are never off the public agenda: any serious accident with fatalities will be reported on national news usually within the hour; TV and radio infomercials about safe driving are aired during the day and evening; all elementary schools must carry a program for safe pedestrian behavior; there are powerful NGO’s that are pretty aggressive and take up huge billboards that constantly update the number of fatalities from the beginning of the year, and even a bigger one at the end of the year with the total yearly number. If that number is larger than last years’ number they will also put on a picture of the minister of transportation on that year-end ad and hold him responsible for the rise from last year.

    And still it’s seems to be accepted, until that is you or one of your loved ones are hit.

  120. Daniel: Thank you for your eloquent posting about traffic collisions. I realize your “hot button” concerns are far removed from mine since you were more affected by events in Germany during WWII, but still it was nice enough to read what you had to say about cars and the cavalier attitudes the US seems to have towards the dangers of guns and cars, etc,.

    Sometimes it seems as though danger lurks everywhere. I’m struggling to remove plant growth from my backyard and I have to keep a lookout for poisonous pokeberries which might look like less harmful elderberries, being mindful to carefully cut out water hemlock plants, etc.

    It seems as though I have to be careful and low-key in everything I do with life being so fragile and easily destroyed. I am still blown away at the idea that I wouldn’t have been born without the aid of automobiles, to boot.

    • Just another small instance of the fragility of my existence: After fooling around with all this plant life I have to immediately wash my hand, arms, and face to remove any potentially poisonous plant sap so my skin doesn’t develop a nasty rash/blisters, etc.

  121. Otto Codingian says:

    should i send this email to my darling wife:
    “I kind of have to get a reality check here.
    Sophie is covered with fast-growing fungus, and has been for a while now.
    And yet MANY MANY tiny and not-so-tiny useless items, or maybe some not useless (but not necessary, as measured against Sophie’s misery), have been bought over and over again, instead of fixing her misery.
    And of course, we are broke.
    Now this is the dog you wanted.
    What are you going to do about this?
    When are you going to get a clue?”

  122. Otto Codingian says:

    Well i wont send it. Don’t know how to make contact with this person. she is on the far side of the universe, in her own little world. Nothing i say can reach her, even if i knew how to be kind about it.

    • Patrick: Just read your first comment, so not sure what follows. You seem (in your own mind at least) to know what the problem is:- but seemingly don’t have any solutions … just complain, complain and complain and it’s the same story (tune) being played over and over again.

      The record is getting worn out and is so scratchy now. Sadly, you do not see it even after many attempts to tell you. Some nicely, others like me not so nicely, We humans are so flawed as opposed to the sheep your brother tends.

      An Idea, why not take the money you still have … buy a few sheep on an adjacent piece of land to your brother and make a crook and tend your sheep … and stay in your beloved Ireland.

      Primal seems to not be serving you, and yet you compusively hang onto this blog for reason only you might fathom. Good luck.


      • Patrick says:

        Jack – this ‘sounds’ nice on the surface it also sounds condescending even on the surface to me at least anyway it seems a bit odd you would go about ‘advising’ me while ignoring the fact my comment was ‘censored’ again as anyone here can see. Now Gretchen even shows it right out on the surface she is doing it. Another ‘insult’ show the first word like a gag put on my throat. It’s true I do like to talk and my talk maybe not be to the liking of the ‘guests’ but still it’s hurtful for the ‘parent’ to do that. It’s only in the end at matter of opinion who is being ‘bad’ and who is being ‘nice’ and it’s even highly ironic all this……………… point is really there is a really few things in the modern world as it is that are now allowed as legitimate things to say or talk about and Gretchen by her actions here basically shows and demonstrates that exact point. I suppose I should not be surprised but actually I am and really in a strange goes to my maybe exaggerated ‘belief’ in primal therapy even after all these years. A belief that it WAS really ‘different’ this was a ‘belief’ formed at a very impressionable age (20) and was so deep it is impossible it seems to shift it. In other times it would usually be religous, later I suppose more ‘political’ like lifetime Communists or something. One of those beliefs that lasts a lifetime some are just totally dedicated I am maybe someone like Mother Theresa who it seems really at times ‘struggled’ with her Faith, in the political arena some again went to their graves commited and convinced others like say Arthur Koestler or George Orwell saw the ‘dark side’

        My thoughts are just rambling around here but I just woke up this is kind of the way my mind works I hope that will not be found to be in breach of something or other.

  123. Patrick says:

    Goodbye Blue Sky……………..and Free Speech……………..Goodbye to lots of things


    Going further into the theme of a dangerous world…
    I was reading a story about some gang members seeking retaliation against a target in Milwaukee and shooting at the wrong house. They emptied an entire clip of bullets on this mistaken house. Two of the bullets went directly into the skull of a 5 year-old girl sitting on her grandfather’s lap inside the house. Needless to say she was killed and I would have a hard time imagining being in the grandfather’s shoes mentally after something like that happens.

    Stories like these stop me in my tracks and make it harder to try to fearlessly carry on with my day.


    Abdul Aziz Oryakhail is an Afghani firefighter whose specialty is to clean up after suicide bombings. He has processed thousands of suicide bomb scenes. His psychological fortitude is incredible and I can’t begin to explain how he can handle his job.

    A clipping from the Al Jazeera article:

    ….the cleanup firefighters rarely speak in a way that hints at their emotional state. Even as he recounts the most disturbing scene he has witnessed, Abdul Aziz Oryakhil remains distant and his voice steady.
    “Once there was a woman who had been beheaded by the blast. Her three-year-old son was still sitting beside her. He had survived,” Oryakhail says. He pauses for a moment before continuing: “The child was holding his mother’s severed head, screaming her name, ‘Mother, Mother’ …”

    • Sylvia says:

      Informative article, Guru. Those firefighters do suffer from PTSD. I think we don’t hear enough about the impossible things the Afghans are going through. One said they hated the attackers for all the death they bring and when they go to clean up this war zone in their streets yearn for what it must be like to live in a peaceful country. It all puts a human face on the situation there.

      • Sylvia: I would like to know how the firefighters (and particularly Mr. Oryakhail) can summon the sheer strength of will to carry on with their excruciating duties as they do. I’d have been a blubbering idiot cowering in a dark corner after a day or two, never wanting to see the color red (as in blood) ever, ever again.

        In light of this, maybe I will find myself a nice, quiet cabin in Canada far away from big city troubles where I can fish at a lake and watch the stars without light pollution. I can stay over at Larry’s place while I sort out exactly where to go afterwards.

      • Syvia: I come from a country that had colonies all over the globe and wondered why many hated us. The US has now taken over that role and we wonder why the terrorist. We are unable to look into ourselves to see what it might be about ourselves that created the hatred and mayhem.

        It is NOT something that just erupts out the blue; by our notion of the bad guy … thinking we are the good guys. That’s our OPINION; not necessarily there’s.


        • Sylvia says:

          Jack, I hear a good book on that subject is Stephen Kinzer’s “Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq.” I’ve always heard that we went after other country’s resources but it was not something taught in school.

        • Larry says:

          Have you read The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man?

          • Sylvia says:

            Larry, I looked at the new edition and see it is very interesting. Awaiting its arrival. Thanks for the recommendation for us. Looks like the U.S. has been devious according to the preview so far of Perkin’s book.

          • Larry: I am more inclined these days to rely on what my gut feelings are. I was given a great deal of history at school and lead to believe it was all true AND our British benevolence. Later, I realized that it was all biased in one form or another.

            I tend not to read books either, knowing that most book that make it to market are marketed and sold first. That says little to me about what is their “Truth” or opinion. We are all biased one way or another dependent on factors too complex to even fathom.

            However, I thank for the information, but I prefer to listen to opinions then asses them within the framework of my own biases.


  126. Phil says:

    Terrible story, not anything I want to read about or see

    • Just so you know, there are no really graphic photos in the story. Some of the written descriptions are graphic, yes. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted that worst scene description?

      In any case, since the Primal Institute is a clinic specializing in healing psychological trauma it might be worthwhile or educational to learn how people deal with the absolute worst of the worst. The story explained that the firefighters actually don’t have any mental health professionals, but they banded together for support when needed.

      I think it’s interesting how these non-mental health professionals instinctively banded together as a support group completely on their own out of necessity.

  127. Patrick says:

    I do feel ‘sympathy’ for Trump and agree with him and others that the ‘moderator’ in that debate was very biased by first off the questions he asked and secondly the way he pushes back on Trump and lets Hillary alone all together. Also his points about the ‘media’ I find them incredibly ‘biased’ and what is a bit amazing and interesting I suppose is how across the board this is. I don’t know if anyone else scans the Huffington Post and I keep going on about it because to me this is something new, this complete abondonment of even a ‘pretence’ of balance or fairness. As I keep saying also the Guardian which does a good job of the ‘pretending’ part is also incredible biased. It seems to me something new, and something quite like the Soviet Union in it’s ‘glory days’ of Pravda etc

    I think we are living in what is effectivly a totalitarian world, it is sort of invisible because it is done at the level of ‘thought’ no police enforcing it on the street so to speak though the blacks in the US would dispute that probably. It is invisible also because it is so total, like all ‘reasonable’ people believe in the efficacy of vaccines, the truth of the global warming theory, the an attempt at wiping out a certain group happened etc etc. These are sort of the articles of faith and there are many many other aspects to this like the worst things to be are ‘racist’ ‘homophobic’ ‘hateful’ etc etc and these are the kinds of buzz words to enforce these beliefs to bring down the power of ANY country to be truly in charge of itself and have a kind of coherent strategy to survive even AS a country.

    So as I said several times already (before Jack uses his cheap shots about my attitude to Trump) I do consider Trump a very flawed characted but I have sympathy for him as he is knowingly or not pushing against these kind of implicitly accepted beliefs which I do believe are mostly wrong and quite harmful to people. And we have the state of the modern world to sort of show they are not exactly ‘good’ ideas. Trump of course himself quite an exponent of the ‘modern world’ is I think shocked and surprised the ‘treatment’ he is getting but even that is part of his appeal probably most people deep down feel this way. I mean that they are being screwed by the ‘system’ somehow that they are in an unfair game that if they try to take it to court the judge is corrupt and even after all that the ‘pundits’ are still against him and take the side of the corrupt judge/moderator. Like David here goes on about Trump’s ‘lies’ I am not sure about that at all I know the media lie ABOUT him constantly all the time. To take one almost at random example on this subject of taking away guns he said to Hillary ‘ok then have the Secret Service take away their guns in protecting you’ I mean he has somewhat of a point there like he is saying to her YOU don’t actually put away YOUR guns but whatever he has somewhat of a point……………but what do most of the media run with from that oh that he advocated the assasination of Clinton. That is one example there are loads of more so actually who is ‘lying’ here …………………anyway I don’t even know why I am writing all this stuff I am sure people here will find it ‘crazy’ or whatever and I will see them in turn as weak and brainwashed and all kind of walking in lockstep to these kind of poisonous ‘ideas’ And if I step out of line a bit more I will be ‘censored’ and nobody will object. All the seeming champions of ‘free speech’ like Jack or whomever will be silent. I think that is the kind of feeling Trump is getting too but see maybe that is his appeal including to me he feels the same things as I am feeling. What IS surprising to me is the he has any chance at all and I think in a funny way that is a great testament to the kind of individuality or orneryness of Americans here this kind of political correctness is almost total. Brain washing here (I mean in Europe in general) is very strong and very unchallenged and even as examples here look at David and Margaret total ‘true believers’ of what’s in the papers. I would question if these ‘beliefs’ are really helping them or imprisoning them but whatever that’s just my take

    • David says:

      “anyway I don’t even know why I am writing all this stuff”

      An honest admission. I think you should just “give it a rest” as we say in England.

      • Patrick says:

        When I feel like it I will and won’t particular be based on English views about ‘giving it a rest’ or ‘getting on with things’ or even ‘keeping a stiff upper lip’ no thanks we have had it up to here with the English and their ‘wisdom’ As for yourself David I see a lot of ‘fatigue’ in your thinking. It seems ‘tired’ and conventional and just imbued with this weak Guardian like tea. Maybe try some stronger stuff………..

        • David says:

          “Stronger stuff” as in what? The latest conspiracy theory that’s doing the rounds on the furthest fringes of the internet? Actually, your use of that phrase is very telling and revealing. Isn’t that a phrase used to refer to a drug or something alcoholic? I really think that these ideas, and the compulsive way you come on this blog to endlessly recycle them, are your fix. And the pain that they cover up must be very big indeed judging by the extent of your compulsion. As for trying them myself, no thanks.

    • Patrick: I am not sure a billionaire needs your sympathy. Like you, he’s a verbal bully and rants on and on about all that he doesn’t like and hates criticism of any kind. Like you he thinks he has all the answers. None of us have. If we humans were to abolish that, that caused 99% of all the mess in the world then we’d all be equal, there’d be not need for police (high paid bullies) laws and lawyers, governments and militarizes and yep national borders.

      We’d all be free at last. It is you that seemingly are not able to see beyond ‘the end of your nose’

      Why do you stay on this blog??????? Please make an attempt to anser the question …. since you seemingly are so HURT when youre comment is deleted. Are you a masachist??????

      You have no ansswers, Trump has no answers, I have only one suggestion (call it an answer if you like) Abolish money; then the likes of Trumps becomes irrelavent.

      Incidently the moderator made a bold attempt to get at Hilary and she completely and brilliantly IMO, ‘took the legs from enderneath him’ and put to rest the whole ’email server’ question. She simply admitted it was a mistake and did not add a rider.

      Something neither you nor Trump are able to do … you are so righteous.

      Last point … Primal for me is something I KNOW from within my very being … so as such is not a belief system; hence is beyond the realms of religion. I do not have to follow Art Janov, Gretchen or any other primal person or even attend the Primal Institute. I’m on my own with my Jimbo. That’s all I need for now other that to respond to you and anyone else on the blog that inspires me to respond, AND I love blogging.


  128. Daniel, I have to admit your September 27th posting about cars being ballistic missiles was an extraordinarily perceptive one where I am concerned. It’s one of those rare posts that strike close to the heart of how I really think about things. Patrick and Margaret also once posted deeply understanding missives about my distant past, as well. All three of these post retain a permanent place in my gallery of champions, thank you.

    Patrick, you said late in your last post that the Jews are about tired of Americans and ready to throw in their lot with the Chinese. I’ve only met a limited number of Jews in my life (maybe a dozen) and even I can see Jews can a widely diverse group bereft of groupthink. I once had a Jewish drug counselor who was a spitting image of Jerry Garcia, wore two big hearing aids, and he struggled to overcome heroin and gambling problems. I doubt he had enough power to shift focus from the US to China.

    I do have some latent concerns about certain subsets (my emphasis) of the Jewish population controlling a worrisome amount of wealth and power in the world possibly to the detriment of others, but to lump all Jews together in a hegemony of thought is clearly inaccurate even from the limited sample size I have personally interacted with.

    • By the way, I felt it safe enough to describe the drug counselor a little bit because he has been deceased for a fair number of years now and I won’t name him anyway. One of the amazing things about him in particular was that he was really good at filling emotional needs my dad couldn’t fulfill.

    • Daniel says:

      The thing is, Guru, is there anything specifically Jewish about the riches of that subset, or perhaps class is the defining feature, and the other fact – that some or even many Jewish people managed for all kinds of reasons to belong to higher classes – is just an adjunct. In other words, it’s a class issue rather than an ethnic one.

  129. Here, Patrick:

    You might want to take a look at Wikipedia’s entry on Kiryas Joel, New York:,_New_York

    It’s worth noting that poor Jews of the world are largely invisible because they can’t afford to participate in activities which draw attention. The rich and famous tend to grab the sensational headlines.

    • Patrick: Well, I have to say it’s interesting that you seem to want Gretchen to disavow Judaism. Of the dozen or so Jews I knew outside Vivian’s Institute it never occurred to me to ask them to divest themselves of the label. At the time I actually thought it was pretty cool when they told me they were Jewish. It seemed interesting to me and I never had any problems with them. I say this because most of my meetings with them occurred after I had done in-depth studies of the tactics of various Jewish businessmen during my own free time in college.

      What do you think of Donald Trump’s daughter Ivanka converting to Judaism in 2009 and still practicing today? It seems Donald wasn’t too happy with her decision, but he grudgingly went along with it.

      • Not that I am encouraging this to happen, but a really strange twist of irony would dictate that lasting peace and security could be attained on the blog if Patrick himself converted to Judaism like Ivanka Trump did as a personal experimental journey.

        I know it probably won’t happen. Just sharing a weird thought.

        • Phil says:

          I suggested this sometime back but Patrick didn’t respond. I just thought that way he could be on the winning team, and we could have more peace and harmony here.
          A win-win outcome.

        • Daniel says:

          The twist of irony is already in place: It bridges Patrick’s copy-paste notion that being Jewish is a myth with his monomaniacal obsession with it.

          • Daniel: I agree with you that Patrick has a maniacle view on Judasim and in particular Israel. I am not sure it helps him other than his obsession to write about it on this blog. However, many of your comments have brought up things that I have thought about and come to conclusions about, for myself.

            The first is:- I have no desire to identify with any group … other than my family. I have no desire to identify with any ethnicity that I might be supposedly considered that I belong to. That includes the Gay, British, European, Christian communit or even the white community. I always felt I had more in common, anatomically, with a black man or any other ethnic male person, than any female of a white skin color. I do and did feel a sense of belonging to my family … but that was more luck than anything I did on my part.

            As far as I am concerned with any person of any ethnicnicity.. there are some I like, some I dislike and most I know nothing of. That applies to the whole spectrum of people.

            A scond one is: Feeling insulted. The matter of feeling insulted for me would only occur if I allowed myself to be feel insulted. There is a difference in feeling insulted to feeling hurt IMO. Normally, I tend only to feel hurt from someone close to me … for which there are very few, but to feel insulted is something I am very sure of is something I never feel these days. I did in the past. Those day are gone for me, and I feel good about it.

            A third is:- “Pride and/or Shame”. There’s nothing I feel the need to be ‘proud’ of. I have many regrets about many things I have done, but I would never classify any of it as “Shame”.

            I may think of more as time progresses, but I did feel I’d like to acknowledge some things you brought up for me, with some of your comments.


  130. Margaret says:

    > Guru, that was an awful scene you described, it really hit me emotionally.
    > poor poor kid…
    > all so very sad and very very crazy.
    > M

    • Margaret: Are you referring to the girl shot to death while sitting on her grandfather’s lap? Yes, that was a horribly unfair & absurd occurrence which completely defies any safety or sanctity of innocent children being at home with family. The police chief made the investigation personal by carrying the girl’s picture in his pocket for a year while his team tried to track down the killer, so I’m sure it was an emotional undertaking for him and a lot of others as well.

      It does appear the gunmen were identified and found in the end, though.

      • Not that I expect this to provide emotional comfort, yet mathematically as a population sample size grows larger you will witness increasingly absurd extremes at both ends of the population spectrum.

        This is evident in a world of more than seven billion people where you have crazily absurd extremes of toddler boys desperately clutching their mother’s heads as opposed to multi-billionaires wanting to judiciously avoid all taxation on themselves.

  131. Margaret says:

    > Guru,
    > that comment of mine was still referring to the post about the boy sitting next to his dead mother..
    > but afterwards reading the other story it was also painful to imagine the pain and sadness the whole family all of a sudden is forced to deal with, and the young life being wiped away in such a violent cruel way..
    > so sad.
    > M

  132. Larry says:

    My original posting of the following was on the way wrong page. I post it here again.

    Too much reality. All the people suffering and being killed in Allepo right now. Sometimes feels like it’s happening practically next door. Worn out today. Very low vitality. Low interest in life. Work has been the central agenda of my life for the past 30 years. I don’t think life without it in retirement will be easy. Tonight I don’t feel it will be possible. In retirement I might stay home and become a lonely recluse and wither away.

    Feel very alone. My boss retired a year ago. Yet she volunteers her time to help the biologist and I get the field work done. She and I did our last field trip together yesterday, harvesting some long distant field plots. 13 hours together, outdoors at the field site and in the truck hauling trailer and combine to and between field sites and back home again, just me and her from 7 am to 8 pm. I enjoyed the day. The weather was nice. I enjoyed the work challenge. I like working outdoors when I’m not working alone. For that reason I appreciated her company. Because she’s technically not my boss anymore, and because I’ve grown emotionally, I don’t defer to her so much and let her boss me around so much as I used to. Because she’s not my boss anymore, she kind of steps back and lets me do my thing, without butting in so much, because she appreciates I know what I’m doing and do it well. We struggle less in our working relationship. Because I understand her psyche, I listen to her respectfully and allow her room to be her self, kind of caring about this person who is getting older and more frail now and who has been pivotal to the last two decades of my life. In the beginning of our work relationship 20 years ago when I was so shy and anxious, in a way she was like a Mother, supporting me and showing confidence in me to get the job done. In reality she had no choice but to work with me and hope for the best. I know back then a lot of technicians wouldn’t want to work with her. I realized I am grateful for the structure that working for her gave my life, and how lucky I am that I could make my living in research and had the opportunity to work outdoors and to have much variety on my job and the freedom to make independent decisions. There is some routine drudgery in my job, but not most of the time.

    Pretty soon the working full time part of my life will be over and I’m afraid of the unknown ahead. Tonight she texted me about what her day was like today and asked how was mine. What’s that about?! Ours has always been a working relationship, not social. I’m uncomfortable with starting a social connection with my boss that was never there before, yet when I retire I’m afraid of losing that daily connection with my workplace community. She seems to want to stay in touch. I don’t know what to make of it. She has children and grandchildren, and work colleagues who are friends who she makes her life with, and a hobby farm and neighbours that she enjoys and a house in the City. In comparison I have so little. So very little. So crippled and stunted is my life. I feel I’m barely hanging on, barely tied to reality as it is. If I lived in Allepo I have so few anchors I’d long ago be carreening over the edge.

    Where are the people who would be grounding me? Why do I feel I’m an island separate from everyone. Will I always feel like an outcast, and just have to live with it, and always have to fight to not actually BE an outcast?

    I hope a good sleep tonight will put me in a better perspective tomorrow, and more able to address my fears.

  133. Patrick says:

    Wake up, assess the ‘damage’ from my comments yesterday morning. Main think I suppose is gretchen (the dissapearing ‘expert’) still has her scissors out like some demented Crispr gene editing device. She actually makes these ‘judgements’ as to what is ‘kosher’ lol or not. How weird and how scary too as it seems the whole of the world might well be going in that direction. I think even this ‘internet freedom’ thing will go soon the US apparantly are transferring ‘control’ of the internet to some kind of UN body. I was often not a great fan of the US but when they cede control of the internet so too goes the 1st Amendment. Freedom of speech no more. So I think the real target is the 1st Amendment the 2nd (right to have guns) is probably secondary to the real agenda

    China has shown it is quite possible to ‘censor and control’ the internet, can you imagine this combined with say the ‘German type laws’ about the subject we dare not question the sacred lie at the heart of the modern world. Game over for free speech and to take people here even as a cross section there will hardly be a peep. It seems to me people (here) love to be brain washed, crave their slavery and with Jack at the helm the bogus philosopher things should just along as they have for the last 40 years for a while more anyway.

    I am disgusted at gretchen’s shenanigans and though as I said I am not a ‘vengeful’ person it’s like I feel she should not get away with this. I put on here some pretty cool stuff and people esp this morris guy and boom gone. As for ‘revenge’ maybe a big article in the Sunday LA Times entitled “Whatever happened to Primal Therapy” and a long and thorough story written by me detailing the suicides especially but also the pretense versus the reality, the overblown claims versus the mostly pitiful results. Also a proper thinking about WHY all this happened. WHAT exactly happened?

    That’s it for now I could get into other stuff but it would probably would get deleted. Bitch!

    • Quote:- “Jack at the helm the bogus philosopher things should just along as they have for the last 40 years for a while more anyway.” If this Jack was at the helm Money would be gone the next day … then would be a thing of the past and NOTHING would be the same.

      Another Quote same passage:- “I am disgusted at gretchen’s shenanigans and though as I said I am not a ‘vengeful’” Ohhhhh! YES YOU ARE and many know it. and YOU are forever showing it.

      Yet another quote:- “Whatever happened to Primal Therapy” and a long and thorough story written by me detailing the suicides especially but also the pretense versus the reality, the overblown claims versus the mostly pitiful results. Also a proper thinking about WHY all this happened. WHAT exactly happened? That’s it for now I could get into other stuff but it would probably would get deleted. Bitch!” It’s not surprising that someone that FAILED AND FAILED MISERABLY would want to write to the LA Times and get some vengeance for his failing.


  134. Patrick says:

    This thing of craving to be brain washed I am sure people have not noticed as well they are too busy bathing in the brain washing but there was an interesting upshot from that debate the other night. HIllary mentioned the Venezualan maid (VM) don’t know her name and how Trump supposedly ‘fat shamed’ her and made her life some kind of living hell and how she still has Trump PTSD maybe a new ‘illness’ call it TPTSD involving I dunno trouble with food or something. Well it seems this lady is not all that Clinton potrayed was even involved in murder hanging around with big time drug dealers and so on. But what I think is more interesting Clinton’s people had IN ADVANCE co-ordinated elaborate ‘stories’ ready to go in yes the Guardian (I felt it was just becoming Huffington Post light) the NY Times (what a surprise they now compare Trump to Hitler constantly, Trump might be honored but he is sadly not so well informed) and that bastion of high minded thought Cosmopolitan. Their story had her clothed (partly?) in an American flag. So when Clinton drops her name at the end of the debate that is the OK these stories already pre written can now go ahead. To me this is like a major scandal in that it shows the major media activly working with Clinton and of course basically spreading lies. But people here for example swallow all this junk you will have David going on about Trump’s ‘lies’ meanwhile the Guardian that bastion of something or other is doing stuff like this. I have to give Americans great credit they have a kind of native scepticism when it comes to the media unlike people here who are like babes in the woods for lies like tell me lies please lie to me. I suppose that is why after 40 years they are similar about PT maybe those suicides never happened maybe it just this crazy Patrick saying this. Gretchen or Barry never told me about that so it must not be true. That’s where maybe a good LA Times story or even better a Rolling Stone story might come in. But even there I might have to very careful like never mention any kind of Jewish angle…………..keep real quiet about that for any kind of journalist ‘credibility’ you have to keep your eyes closed so some real important connections………….

  135. Patrick says:

    Maybe that’s my problem I was not close enough to my mom to ask her to ‘tell me sweet little lies’ maybe I misunderstand everything being told sweet little lies is the nature of life. Still not so much sweet about the lies I am talking about………

  136. Patrick says:

    On a bit of a lighter note and I can imagine Guru you might the first 0:10 seconds here pretty funny I did. And note to gretchen maybe you don’t have to waste your time seeing if there is anything ‘un-kosher’ here at least I am saying there is not. Though you ‘standards’ seem to be expanding the piece I put on yesterday by Kevin Barrett as far as I know never mentioned what cannot be mentioned it kept to current affairs. But apparantly you found that ‘un-kosher’ too so will you now stop your sessions if someone says something unkosher and will they get their money back if you do. BTW all this guy is saying is Hillary has major health problems even THAT is now not cool Dr Drew had his show cancelled because he mentioned it and this guy Michael Savage also had his radio show cancelled for the same reason. Does this sound like the beginning of a ‘police state’ I’m afraid it does and it does NOT come from Trump it comes from the other one. So all you people talking about Trump’s ‘lies’ pull your heads out. Hillary Clinton is a living walking ‘hoax’ it is going to work maybe but I still hope not

  137. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > it sounds like your former boss enjoyed the day with you, and reaches out to become friends outside of work as well.
    > If you like her too as a person, it might be a nice enrichment of your life, she sounds like having a good social circle, and I know how much friends like that enrich mine.
    > my life opposed to theirs is a bit like what you describe, but that does not really matter.
    > I am staying with them, with my two cats right now, as there is renovation work being done in my place, and I feel so welcome here, and none of us knows exactly how many days my stay will still have to last, and it is fine.
    > hope you can accept and enjoy that new friendship, M

    • Larry says:

      I don’t like her as a person, Margaret. A scientist needs to network with other scientists. She normally doesn’t like to network. She’s not confident enough in herself, She prefers to go it alone. In my opinion she’s an average or mediocre scientist, who has slogged out a career in a workman like fashion, never breaking new ground with novel ideas or discoveries, whose intuitive and logical thinking tends to be flawed. I’ve saved her butt many times by figuring out how to make her projects work, or by figuring out how to analyse her data and I’ve offered conclusions that she’s argued with me against but eventually accepted or at least considered my insight. I enjoy the intellectual challenges of my job and she’s come to trust my abilities and let me grow into them more and more. As work partners we complement each other in that she interacts with the public, with bureaucracy, applies for funding, writes reports and speaks at conferences, all things I’m weak at and don’t like to do. I’ve had to endure her as a work partner, as a boss, because I like my job and the other people I work with, . She uses bluster and bossiness to cover her insecurities. I understand her insecurities and try not to get into struggles with her, so she’ll feel safe with me and show a little more human side with me. It’s been stressful. She’s not someone who I normally would want as a friend.

    • Larry says:

      How is it for you Margaret, being out of your home and dependent on the kindness of friends? Yes, real friends enrich my life a lot.

  138. Phil says:

    Yesterday evening I found myself alone at my house for the first time in a number of days.
    I started feeling lousy maybe partially because of being alone and also because when I’m with people I’m distracted from whatever is bothering me.
    I sat down to read some stuff on the internet for relaxation, but then soon cruised to porn sites,
    abusive ones. For some reason I’m sometimes attracted to a fantasy of being abused in one way or another. I connect it with how I was treated by my mother. It’s huge and keeps coming back
    no matter how many times I make that connection.
    Very soon though I went to Youtube to put on some music that helps with feelings.
    Sure enough it worked.
    There were some angry feelings relating to my mother and then it turned over to sadness.
    I cried about my grandmother, which is another new area for me. The crying seems to be getting more specific. It was about her leaving me too. She was someone who I had but as she moved further into old age she seemed to somewhat forget the connection we had. She had no clue neither about what I went through with my mother. I needed more from my grandma too, but it didn’t happen. I think the adults around me thought I didn’t need much because I didn’t ask for it, or demand it. But that wasn’t true at all. It was exactly the opposite.

    • Sylvia says:

      Phil, it sounds like the old niggling feeling of having your young needs thwarted wants to have its day as you seek out that familiar abuse on the web. Good that you could give-in to it.
      Music brings up feelings in me also; it so works.

  139. Phil says:

    Amazing, Donald Trump apparently was up early this morning 3:00 AM tweeting about the beauty queen “issue”. Encouraging people to go look at her sex tape, to try to bring down her character. Seemingly not realizing what this shows about his own character.
    Unbelievable election season; it’s so hard to imagine him in the white house and that a lot of people still want him there.

    • Daniel says:

      If you’re into that you might want to read this article from 2015 which is about interviews Trump gave to Howard Stern in the early 2000’s. The recorded interviews are there in the article. Here’s a quote revealing trump to be of nature’s true noblemen:

      “I’ve known Paris Hilton from the time she’s 12, her parents are friends of mine, and the first time I saw her she walked into the room and I said, ‘Who the hell is that?’ At 12, I wasn’t interested… but she was beautiful.” He also admitted to watching Paris Hilton’s sex tape with Knauss, despite knowing her since the age of 12 and being very close friends with the Hilton Family.

      • Phil says:

        Daniel, I read that article ….Trump is a real sleaze bag.
        He’s been helping to keep that beauty queen story going the last 4 days, probably driving his advisers nuts, and greatly damaging his chances with the pool of undecided voters. A very inept politician to have such a large following. I hope his campaign completely self destructs.

  140. Daniel says:

    I may be wrong, Patrick, but I don’t think deleting some of your writings in this blog will ignite a constitutional crisis, nor will it mark the beginning of the end for western civilization.

    But I do wish you would take those ideas to the LA times or Rolling Stone, for two reasons. First, there too you might encounter editorial standards, responsibility and accountability that have become so foreign for you. I don’t know if they will publish you but they may write about you. As a matter of fact in a way they already have. Here’s a quote in that article, from Andrew Anglin, editor of the Daily Stormer Neo-Nazi website:

    “Virtually every alt-right Nazi I know is volunteering for the Trump campaign.”

    The second, more important reason why I wish you’d present your ideas to the LA times or Rolling Stone is I that turning you gripes back against the PI may lead you right to where it all started, or in the immortal words of T.S Elliot, with which I’m sure you’re familiar:

    We shall not cease from exploration,
    And the end of all our exploring
    Will be to arrive where we started
    And know the place for the first time.

  141. Daniel, I agree one hundred percent with your comments. Patrick, I told you before I’m am not impressed with your threats and I assume you know what level you have to have sunk to when you threaten me or anyone else . Ending your comments by calling me a bitch is the ultimate weakness and reveals a great deal about you. I will tell you now that should you speak to any other woman here that way I will ask you to leave permanently. I, like Daniel, encourage you to write any article you want to write and submit it where ever you would like. I would be happy to forward you all of your blog comments and the subsequent responses for you to attach to your article. As for your upset that I have taken down some of your comments well, I find the whole thing incredibly dishonest. You know exactly why I have removed the things I have and feigning innocence is completely disingenuous. If you have a question about why a particular post was removed, you can ask and I will repost long enough for you to see what the issue is before removing it again. I assume you could simply check your sent file for those answers however. You seem to think this is only a Jewish issue. You are free to post one of your homophobic or rascist rants and you will see it removed as well. Honestly I think the whole thing is pretty phony because frankly I sense you love every moment of it. You are stuck in a sick loop of posting inappropriate things, being asked to stop and finally having your things removed. You then cry foul and whine that your freedoms are being toyed with. This from someone who has no concern about anyone else’s freedom. You go on and on about everyone else being close minded and you may be the most close minded person I have ever known. It is you that is walking in lock step….literally. You post things that you assert are facts while having zero evidence and no part of you finds it odd that you do little or no research as to your claims. You said you were posting links to this Morris guy because you wanted someone to hear the lunacy he had to say. So send them a link . You don’t need to do that here except that it keeps you in that loop you are so comfortable with. I have left your vitriol about me, the Institute, Jack, Psychology and any number of things posted for all to see but I am drawing the line at Anti- Semitism, Homophobia and Rascism. Maybe I should add a lack of respect for women to the list. Surely you have other things you can talk about. Gretchen

  142. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > it is a nice experience.
    > they are very warm and also real, and have a good sense of humour.
    > so I and my cats are having a good time here really.
    > the work seems to go at a good pace in my own place so I might be able to be back there tomorrow!
    > then of course a lot of cleaning up remains to be done, and I will have to wait until the middle of next week for the green light from the inspection to start up the hot water and heating system.
    > yesterday I actuallly got into some feeling here, discussing with my girlfriend issues about my former drug use and childhood.
    > she seemed to have an impression I still felt very positive about the effect of some drugs. it seemed a bit of a difference of interpretation of what I said, so it took us a while to sort things out, and at some point i mentioned how my old feelings about my dad actually gave my life a bad turn by making me seek for affection with the wrong guys, and when i summed up in a brief sentence how big the impact on my life was, I became very emotional suddenly, about to cry and then she gave me a hug and said she was glad she had been able to express herself, while me too, I felt more relaxed afterwards.
    > although the warmeest welcoming place you can imagine, being away from home with the cats by ‘force’ and staying over for several days unavoidably raises some stress of course, while at the same time I feel very very lucky with this shelter and support.
    > also the cats have settled in very well now on their upper floor, playing around and sleeping on the back of my bed at night.
    > M

  143. Margaret says:

    you made me reflect on a difference, I was raised a catholic originally, but now I would not call myself a catholic when people would ask, i might just mention as a child briefly I had that kind of upbringing.
    but maybe the Jewish people have, as I can imagine I would possibly have in the same situation, a preference to keep coming up for their roots as they have been attacked so often.
    it is like standing your ground so to say, is that true?
    sorry if I am wrong or ‘god forbid’ this triggers an avalanche of Patricks comments again, I definitely hope not.
    just interested about this difference, like Jewish seems not only to refer to a religion but there seems more attached to it, a feeling of understandable loyalty maybe, M

    • Daniel says:

      If I understand your question correctly then I think the complexity lies with the dual meaning of the word Jewish. ‘Jewish’ refers both to a religion (Judaism) and a type of nationhood and ethnicity. So, a person, such as me for example, can be Jewish although he isn’t a practicing religious Jew because he’s still a Jew by nationhood and ethnicity.

      Being a people is a matter of self-determination, usually following some common identity and history. It’s true that many Jews tend to hug or even cling to their Jewish identity and history, perhaps because they’ve been denied a territorial base very soon after they have established themselves as a nation, in a nation state, in the ancient near east (so-called Land of Israel), and exiled to the four winds. Being religious they couldn’t really completely assimilate into their new societies and so always kept a Jewish identity. It’s actually quite remarkable that that identity survived under those conditions.

      And of course there were always those who saw them as foreigners, and reminded them that much, in those new kingdoms they were exiled to. That too kept Jews together as people and identity.

      Not sure this answers your question.

      • Daniel: If I have it correct, the anti Judaism (I prefer that to antisemitism, since Palestinians are Semites, yeah?) goes back a long time and I have no idea for the reason, but I do understand that many countries did not allow Jews to own land and therefore the only way to make a living was by becoming merchants and they become very adept at it.

        That might well have caused even more resentment.

        Our human (neurotic) tendency to dwell on differences creates the very opposite of that most of us wish for:- peace.

        Not sure how we might overcome any of it, other than a radical re-think of our purpose in life.

        I would be very interested if anyone had any ideas how we might bring that about. I feel it would have to be simple, otherwise we’d get into the meaning or words again that I call “the word game”.


          • Larry says:

            That’s a pretty shallow, hardly-any-thought-put-in-it-at-all observation. I’m getting tired of your dim witted lame brained thinking. Perhaps it’s not your fault that you are the way you are, but I can’t stand your gibberish any more and you have hardly any redeeming qualities. I’d hoped you might see some light eventually, but I feel myself giving up. You are the most disappointing person I ever met.

            • Phil says:

              Larry, I completely agree. And why are we subjected to all this? What is the point?
              I’d like an answer to that.

              • Phil: quote:- “…….. And why are we subjected to all this? What is the point? I’d like an answer to that.” Having know Patrick for more than anyone currently on this blog; I feel I have some sense of where he’s coming from. The first point (just my take I grant) is the anger now morphed into bitterness, about not getting what he hoped to get out this therapy that to a large extent, he was invested in; by reading the book, coming here, and paying out a lot of money. I get the feeling it was a huge disappointment for him.

                The second part is having created and business with a partner and then the partner leaving, he was now totally in control and one might say ‘became a dictator’, running it. In that sense he was used to having things his own way. I did suggest to him at one point that he turned it all over to an employee run company, which I felt would have relieved him of the 17 hours a day, 7 days a week. He rejected that idea, even though I tried hard to convince him there were many benefits to both the company and himself. It was during this time (30 years), I feel many personality characteristics; set in place.

                However, I do need to also say, just as I feel I knew him very well, (working with and for him most of that time), he also knew me well also.

                My strongest feeling is Patrick NEVER saw the difference between appropriately expressing his feelings, and acting them out. I contend, that still apply to this day

                I hope Phil, that gives you a possible answer. Of course, I also need to say that I could well be wrong.


                • Phil says:

                  Jack, Patrick
                  OK, but I’d like to hear it from Patrick. This Jewish question doesn’t seem relevant on a personal level, so why go on and on about it? If it is that important, why rant about it here? There must be more effective places to do that.
                  What do you want from us? Do you just want an argument? You want us to disagree and forever argue with you? If so, why not move on to less contentious topics
                  that won’t get deleted.

              • Larry says:

                If I had to pay to be part of this blog I’d cancel my subscription. I can’t wait til I’m confident enough that I don’t need it any more and won’t have to put up with Patrick’s nonsense.

  144. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > what is that beauty queen issue about?
    > haven’t seen much news lately here except Belgian politicians arguing endlessly..
    > M

  145. Phil says:

    This issue came up in the presidential debate. Donald Trump has in the past been involved with holding beauty pageants. A former beauty queen came forward, or was encouraged to come forward by the democrats, because of the bad treatment she received from Trump. Trump called her a “fat pig” and a slob, and other things, still doing so now. Even though the photos hardly show her as fat, but of course, even if she was, that’s outrageous.
    Democrats brought it up to show Trump’s attitude towards women which should already have been evident from the campaign the last year. That the former beauty queen is Hispanic also helps Clinton with that important group of voters.

  146. Donal says:


    I share your amazement of how Trump has so may supporters yet would clearly be so dangerously incompetent as president, He failed to be coherent many times during the debate, falling back on weak, inarticulate and petty attacks on Hilary Clinton, who in contrast was clear, firm and presidential. In fact, I admired her ability to respond appropriately to Trumps’ attacks without losing control. It amazed me that Trump had no ability to restrain himself and be composed. Despite his total lack of political experience, would he not have had decades of practice in public speaking? His comments regarding the beauty queen were adolescent and mean-spirited. Apart from which are there not so many other way more important issues a presidential candidate could have taken from the debate to discuss and elaborate on during the last 4 days?

    • Donal: I too felt the very same about the debate and Trump. It is my feeling that he’s put the Republicans into a more desperate state than ever. I get the impression that some that previously supported him are now running away from their support.

      I also feel that he, Trump, is now embarrasing the United States that such a person could even have got to a position of being a candidate for the presidency.

      The only explanation I can see is that there are a lot of angry men here in the US and that Trump is also and angry old man, spoiled brat, and like may of the rich, feel they have some right over others.


      • Correction:- I wrote:- “and like may of the rich, feel they have some right over others.”. It should have read:- “and like many of the rich, feel they have some right over others.”


  147. Sylvia says:

    In light of all the talk about Trump and so many have called him a narcissist, I thought this lady’s videos on the subject might interest some here. She gives advice to people who are in a relationship with narcissists. I have seen it in my own family. I think my mom suffered from it because of her terrible childhood–I loved her anyway and always thought she might break like a little girl.

    I wonder what this lady would say about Trump. There is always fear of abandonment and lack of early connection at the core that drives that behavior she says.


    • Phil says:

      This lady identifies abandonment as a kind of universal core issue people have. That seems pretty accurate to me. If you want to classify people, the narcissist type as described, seems very selfish and self centered. How was it for you having a mother with some of these tendencies?

      • Sylvia says:

        Many times I felt protective of my mom growing up. So much would upset her. She took good care of us but her temper would scare me at times. I remember sometimes sitting outside on the back steps and paralyzed with fear from some rant my mom had just had about something. My dad on his way in from his workshop in the garage would pass me by and give a little smile and nod as he went into the house. I really wanted him to say–go do something, find something nice to do. Many times I felt like a bump on a log, just sit and do nada. I remember a lot just feeling immobilized.

        • Phil says:

          It doesn’t sound like your dad was very helpful

          • Sylvia says:

            My dad does sound passive. He probably wondered what he had gotten himself into. He did a few times stand up to my mom. He no doubt harbored resentment in the family dynamics. We would see it come out at family gatherings where he’d make a joke or slight criticism of mom. We’d be surprised and I think he was too that his real feelings slipped out.

            • Phil says:

              I can relate to that. I think my father was also rather passive and didn’t protect me from my mother’s craziness.
              When my own kids were young I would sometimes intervene in their favor against my wife’s criticisms or orders. Because I maybe would feel them to be too harsh. Maybe reactions coming from own history. I rarely or maybe never got orders from my father. Only suggestions or requests.

              • Sylvia says:

                Yes Phil,
                My dad never yelled at me or told me what to do.
                When I babysat for my brother’s first child he always wanted to make sure that nothing scared him, like falling down or if the dog scared him he would give him a little laugh and reassure him. I think it was because we all were so scared growing up.

  148. Larry says:

    Random thoughts. It occurs to me that a person needs to have some inner strength to do this therapy. And outside supports. As my all-my-life model of my reality crumbles, as I wake up and see that I never had a connection with my parents that I so much needed to believe that I did, as I see how alone I’ve been but never wanted to see, as I feel how much I need their love and need to love them but it will never happen, as I see and feel that it’s been an awful mistake the way things turned out for them and me but they are dead now and it will never be fixed, as I collapse under the weight of the truth I wonder how will I carry on alone without the love I needed especially when I embark on a new life of retirement. It feels crucial that I somehow find strength to carry on, and important that I do have some family and some friends who draw me out and keep me going in the present. I think that is why the primal community, group, the therapists, phone sessions and this blog are very important supports for those of us in a no-man-land of trying to build a new life from one that is in shambles.

  149. Linda says:

    Well, Larry, as usual, I never know quite what to say in response to your post(s).
    I guess my first response is always….oh thank you so much for sharing.
    When any one of my friends or acquaintances or even a stranger shares their true feelings…as best they can at the moment…. in my presence….I feel that it is the greatest honor that they can or could possibly bestow on me.
    But it also brings up a much deeper feeling that I can’t put into words. I don’t cry, but my eyes water and I have a burning feeling in my upper chest and a deep feeling of irreversible loss. “Winner’s tears” I think is a term that I have heard to describe these types of occurrences. You finally get something that you dearly needed in your past in order to be able to grown straight and tall emotionally. And now you can finally feel a little of the loss that was in your past because you now have been given the ingredient that was not there in your past emotional …meals.
    I had so wished that my mother could have felt safe enough around me to be honest with me about her true feelings. She almost did one time. And If I had not immediately formed certain iron clad Intellectual beliefs…..ah but if ‘if’s and ands were pots and pans’……..
    So….thank you Larry…for so often giving me what I need to feel and connect with very old needs and losses. Linda, from Texas

  150. Larry says:

    Thanks Linda. It’s nice to hear from you. I’m glad we didn’t lose you.

    Since I moved here 22 years ago I’ve been a member of the Nature Society but participated in the outings only a few times. This Friday and Saturday they held their annual Fall Meet, which I have never attended. My friend is the new President of the Society. Since I will be retiring from work and will need a new community to replace my work community, I decided I should attend this Fall Meet. My friend said I could sit with him at the Saturday evening banquet. That helped give me courage to go. I dreaded being all alone, a stranger among the 100 or so attendees.

    I bucked up my courage to go to the Friday evening presentations, telling myself it will only be a few hours and then I can be safe at home again, alone. My friend, being President, was very busy with other people. We only had time to say Hi and he apologized for not being able to spend much time with me. I said no problem. I wanted to be grown up and to mingle. So I tried mingling. Wouldn’t you know it. I ran into 4 people that evening who I know from other organizations/clubs that I belong to, and I had nice conversations with each of them. Also I talked with three ladies manning three of the display booths. They were very friendly. These were nice people. I shied away from who I knew were the elites of the Society, the stars who I knew helped keep this Society running over decades and who made major award winning contributions to nature conservation. I didn’t feel anywhere near adequate to be near them or noticed by them.

    This evening I showed up 1/2 hour early to mingle before the banquet. I ran into a couple of friends again from last night, and we talked at length. One of them I know her casually from the ball room dancing club. She offered that I could sit with her and her friends at a table for the banquet. I wanted to take up her offer, but checked with my friend the now President and he hoped I’d sit with him so I decided I would. Soon it felt like a mistake.

    He had so many responsibilities and so much running around to do that evening that he hardly had time to eat and I hardly had him for company. What’s worse, I was taking up a space at the table at the front reserved for the elites. I was sitting face to face with the guest speaker for the evening. I felt so uncomfortable in their aura, I wanted to shrink to nothing. Amongst them I was nobody. I made no contributions to conservation, except financial. They all knew each other and why they were at that table. They didn’t know who I was or why I was at that table, the only table reserved for the stars of the evening.

    Finally I shared my discomfort with them, and that I was only at that table because of my friendship with the President. They understood. They became so friendly to me. They opened conversation with me that put me at ease and able to participate in conversation with them. I had the best seat in the house to watch the slide show and hear the guest speaker. God these people were friendly.

    I began to realize that the lady beside me, who I had first talked to at a display booth on Friday evening, had a pretty high profile in the Society and was a mover and shaker. But so friendly. She told me of an exciting project that would be starting up in the Spring that I might be interested to be part of when I retired. Bingo! It did sound interesting and something I’d want to do if only I wasn’t too afraid.

    These people were so nice to me. They opened up to me as if I was SOMEONE, in a way that I’ve not been accustomed to for most of my life and their friendliness kind of hurt. As soon as the formal program was over I had to leave, not wanting to risk that these nice people would discover something ugly about me and shut me out. I quickly returned to my safe recluse, home alone.

    Life could be so much richer if I could more easily let people in. I lost so much richness in my life by having to keep people out.

    I’m glad I went.

  151. Patrick says:

    A few more thoughts about the election/debate etc. This thing of the Venezuelan beauty queen a lot of people say Trump should not be talking about stuff like this, one problem Hillary is the one that brought it up and also the one who have ‘stories’ about it ready to go in the Guardian, NY Times and Cosomopolitan. So there is the ‘standards’ of the vaunted ‘free press’ in the West first of all running a nonsense story but worse co-ordinating with Clinton to set a ‘trap’ for Trump and then ‘blame’ him as he falls into it. Who is really the ‘worst’ here I would say Clinton

    This thing about the press also bring to my mind what I consider the most important story of this year and mostly the not told important story – the many ‘hoaxes’ perpetrated on a gullible public Paris twice, Brussels, Orlando, Nice, Munich. These above all imo were ‘media events’ or ‘press events’ since if we go with the idea they were not ‘real’ in that most likely few if any died in any of these ‘events’ well then their reality is just a reality in the press or a ‘media reality’ Now and excuse me if this is getting in the weeds too much but the most ‘concrete’ proof to me of the hoax nature of these events is the SAME photographer/journalist was there to ‘document’ BOTH Nice and Munich (Richard Gutjahr) and so was his daughter who ‘live tweeted’ Munich…………..well this is where the plot thickens a bit it seems his daughter has met and been at several of Hillary Clinton’s events. So…………..and I even hesitate to go there but it actually starts to seem likely there may be connections between Clinton and these events

    It makes sense Clinton’s almost only real ‘support’ IS the media and she virtually has all of them so called “Left” Right she has the neo-con Zionist war faction and also the so called Center. To me as I said before she is a ‘hoax’ candidate a walking and talking hoax. She supposedly ‘sounds’ good in the so called debate supported by a biased moderator and of course a bough and sold ‘press’ that declares her a winner. Even purely on the basis of her health………..after all she is interviewing for a job above all is it cool to hide her in-numerable health problems. Of course not this is a serious dishonesty and I predict this aspect may well come back to bite her or us if she gets elected. I would expect people here to be a bit different than the normal sheeple influenced by big media but it does not seem to be the case. Oh well………..just my take.

    • Phil says:

      There was a great debate skit on Saturday Night Live last night. It’s true that Hillary purposely trapped Trump with the beauty queen story, and I thought that was well done.
      The media mostly does favor Clinton and yet I believe that haven’t been following
      through on a responsibility to show the ridiculous nature of Trump’s candidacy.
      He has been fooling people into to believing he is a serious person and that is the real “hoax” being perpetrated. He is just a narcissist looking for attention any way he can get it, and he has been quite successful at that.

  152. Patrick says:

    I am in Heathrow Airport waiting to go back to the US and I have to say I do ‘admire’ Americans for though of course heavily brain washed they do have this independant streak. Here in Ireland and Europe in general they seem much better ‘behaved’ and much more likely to believe what’s in the papers and what their ‘betters’ tell them. It seems to me Trump might get about 5% of the vote over here and to me at least there is this kind of smug attitude they know better than these ‘stupid Americans’ I suffered from that myself quite a bit but I see things quite a bit different now. Americans are almost innately suspicious of their Government and the press and good for them. To me they have many reasons as they know deep down they have been lied to about all the important things stuff like JFK’s assasination and 9/11. They might not know how exactly but they ‘know’. Over here they do not have this history or at least that they know about but now we are in a kind of ‘global media’ world and I am quite dissapointed in the kind of ‘lock step’ feeling you get here nothing like Nazis lol mostly this weak liberal consensus that smothers everything. Like all ‘intelligent’ people believe in vaccines, global warming theory and anyone else is just some ‘irrational crazy’ person like Trump (or me)…………….who suffers from ‘racism’ or ‘homophobia’ or ‘hate’ or ‘anti semitism’. These are powerful buzz words to shut people up ……………..

  153. Phil says:

    That sounds like good connections and possibilities coming from the event
    you attended.

  154. Margaret says:

    > Daniel, thanks, that was a very clear reply, interesting to read.
    > Margaret

  155. Donal says:


    You raise a very interesting question: what exactly are the factors that have allowed Trump to make it this far in a presidential race? I have been reading the opinions of columnists for over a year now, as with the American politics well as keeping upand still do not have a firm grasp of what exactly occurred. You did provide your answer, of course, which may well be a major factor. The most common general theory is a failure of the republican part leading to stay in touch with the struggles of those Americans who never felt the benefit of economic recovery. Also, US wages have generally lagged behind the cost of living since the 80s, leading to increased payloads of debt necessary to maintain a middle class lifestyle. The working poor have always been at the thin edge of the wedge: multiple low-paid menial jobs to sustain an economically sub-standard life.
    I am not sure of an answer but it is a probably these chronic economic factors combined with the dubious belief that extreme changes are necessary to make progress. Also, there is the belief that a complete outsider is not tainted by beltways politics and connections and also the belief that an entrepreneur can put the economy back in shape.
    With regard to Trump, I think these beliefs are ill-advised.

  156. Donal: One of the great insights I gained form learning English history was that it set out to subliminally invoke in the population at large that we the British were the greatest nation ever, invented everything, and created the greatest political system ever devised.

    On arriving here in the US I very quickly learned that Americans, least-ways the while ones, had the very same notion about their country. I would not be surprised to learn that many other countries follow the same pattern. Sadly, for the British they had to accept, reluctantly I feel, that they were not longer the super power after WW2. Yep! it took that long to figure that one out.

    What both political parties tend to do here is promote their brand. As I see it, if CHANGE is what the country is beginning to feel it wants, I tend to feel that stems from a subliminal fear that their time is nearing an end. So radical change is a great and semi convincing slogan. However, the real difficulty is that IF radical change were to take place, little of what already exist would be gone in no time. It’s a sort of:- yeah! we want change, but only enough change, to maintain that, we hope is our best. That is a contradiction in terms.

    Donald Trump, falls right into this very basket, and is arrogant enough to not even be aware of what he is actually doing. If he were to gain any real power her would operate from what occurs to him at any given moment in time. Now the Republican party bosses, did hope that he would just be a one day wonder and got the shock of their lives when his arrogance and belligerence took off.

    As I see the problem the very 30 second TV ads for all products and especially political products, is way too superficial to actually give anyone any in deep idea as to what the larger picture is. We are all of us guilty to a certain extent of that same factor. It for this very reason that I favor the abolition of that the keeps the system intact. Which in the end; nothing really changes. Barack Obama came in playing the “Change” candidate and even his health care plan to my way of thinking, was not really such a great idea and left much to be desired.

    In the end it has all to do with language and what each of perceive as to what is ACTUALLY meant in the use of a particular word or phrase. I am particularly guilty of just that myself.


    • Phil says:

      I don’t think massive immediate changes are possible, no matter what any presidential candidate proposes, without major disruptions and failures of the system. Take a look at health care, for example. There are very large private insurance companies which employ many thousands of people (about 500,000 according to the internet) and they provide payment for healthcare services.

      We could transition to a single payer system run by the government, kind of like medicare for everyone, but that would take many years to implement, in my opinion, even if everyone would favor that policy.
      A very good simple change, if it could be achieved, would be to allow the presidential candidates of the Green party, Libertarian party, and maybe other parties to participate in the debates. That would mean a much more open discussion of ideas, and those additional parties would get exposure and respect.
      But, unfortunately, our two major parties have a lock on the electoral system and all the money that goes with it.

      • Phil: I feel in some ways you are making my point. Real radical change is something most say they would like, BUT should it take place would be appalled and wish to reverse it back to what was. The notion that we can make the system more fair is to me a myth. Laws and law makers, have been playing around with making the system more just and fair for centuries … but failing to define exactly what is just and what is fair. In the end it’s all a word game, going significantly no-where. Least-ways no-where in any radical sense.

        The cliche, and it has been used at retreats, it to “get outside the box” Few if any EVER get outside any box. Most of us are stuck in the box of our making and calling IMO. I stated some time ago that climbing out of my box leaves to realize that I am in yet another box and then endeavoring to climb out of that one only to find myself in yet another, and on and on ad infinitum.

        What’s the solution? The reality; I do not know, and my guess is that no-one else knows either. We all of us, as I see it, have solutions for everyone else, BUT ourselves. What a paradox … if that is right idiom.


  157. Patrick says:

    This guy I heard of through morris108 and this is morris talking to him. I found it interesting as a take on the US elections quite far from the daily sniping and point scoring also interesting as a Muslim perspective we hardly ever get their perspective even thought people are yakking about them all the time. This sheik believes we are on the brink of a hugh war WW3 if you want to call it that basically a war against Russia. I am a bit more optimistic than that but at the same time the signs are there the constant demonization of Putin and Russia and trailing that a bit the demonization of Trump. One of Trump’s big ‘sins’ is the fact he does not want to antagonize Russia and sees no need for ramping up this aggression against him and this sheik thinks that is the main reason the ‘powers that be’ cannot abide the idea of Trump being president. For sure what I have seen of the US media this year is worse than anything I have seen before in that their bias for Hillary is so out in the open. Anyway this is short but I felt well worth thinking about.imo……………..Larry instead of saying that I put no thought into this kind of stuff I think it would be more accurate to say I put too much thought into it…………..

    • Larry says:

      Patrick, you see the sun rise in the east and set in the west and decide the Earth is the centre of the universe and everything in the heavans revolves around it. You will not look at any other evidence that comes to a different conclusion, and you declare that anyone who does is brainwashed.

    • Larry says:

      What follows is an excerpt of recent commentary by Gwyn Dyer:

      “Some truly stupid things were said and done in the first years after the 9/11 attacks in 2001.

      But a new generation of Western soldiers has finally grasped how terrorism works.

      The terrorists, of course, knew it all along.

      First, it is the weapon of choice for the weak, because it does not require a large army, sophisticated weapons or a lot of money.

      Second, without a large army, sophisticated weapons or a lot of money, terrorists must not engage in frontal assaults and standup battles against powerful opponents (usually governments) who do have them.

      Terrorism, therefore, can succeed only by tricking those more powerful forces into doing things that really serve the terrorists’ purposes.

      What is the ultimate goal of Islamic State and similar jihadi groups? Obviously, it is to come to power in various parts of the Muslim world. If they ever manage to become a government they may develop further ambitions, but taking power is the crucial first step.

      The terrorists do not have mass support in their own countries, or they would already be in power. In order to build that mass support — it doesn’t have to be majority support, but they do need a lot of people behind them — they need a villain that will push people into their arms.

      That villain can be either the government that rules the country, or a foreign power that invades, but in either case it must be provoked into behaving very badly. Only torture chambers or cluster bombs will make the mass of the population so desperate that they turn to the revolutionaries for help.

      To get the torture and the bombing going, the target government must become so frightened and enraged that it starts using them on a large scale. That’s what the terrorism is for, to make governments overreact and behave very badly.

      Terrorism is a technique used by ruthless but intelligent leaders with coherent strategies and clear political goals, and the violence is never “senseless.” Bin Laden’s strategy in carrying out the 9/11 attacks, for example, was to provoke the United States into invading Muslim countries. The invasions gave a huge boost to the popularity of the jihadi movement.

      Terrorism cannot succeed without overreaction. So ask yourself which of the American presidential candidates is more likely to overreact to a terrorist provocation? Now you know for whose victory the terrorists are praying.

      Gwynne Dyer is an independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.”

      • Phil says:

        I think overreacting in this way to a terrorist attack is also popular. Sentiments among voters support hitting the terrorists hard to make them pay for what they’ve done. Politicians have to pay attention to that too, in order to stay in power

      • Larry: I liked and read the quote you made and a lot of it is sort of right on, from an outside ones-self view. My take is:- that the hate and anger ALL goes back to mommy and/or daddy BUT most are totally unaware of anything in those unconscious regions. In psychological terms is called “transference”. IF ONLY there was a way to open that unconscious up, without the necessity of therapy. Sadly, as I see it, there isn’t.

        Only Primal therapy goes there, and that takes time effort and money.


  158. Patrick says:

    OK Gretchen you’ve done it again. Pisses me off actually I felt what I had written was pretty factual and even handed. You are such a dope and such a clannish tool or it is fool. Will you delete what this guy has to say do you need to watch it for signs of ‘bad thinking’ You really disappoint me I honestly did not believe you could be such an idiot.

    • Patrick says:

      So the ‘wise sheik’s’ comments were deleted also. How weird. How ‘out in the open’ the bias is. And how there is no shame about it. Pretty much like the worst of conventional society. Prmal therapy is run by ‘islamophobes’ lol. Gretchen maybe just like you have no time for ‘anti semites’ I have no time of ‘islamophobes’ if you want to toss buzz words around. Actually I don’t like to use words like ‘islamobphobes’ it is very jargonish just trying to make a point.

      • Phil says:

        I think what has happened is a lot of us have been turned into Patrick-phobes because of the way you can’t give this stuff a rest. That is the main issue here, as I see it, not the Middle East, the Jews, or the Holocaust.

  159. Patrick: It seems as though the normally mild-mannered Larry had some surprisingly strong words for you with Phil and Jack lining up in agreement. I wanted to read your response, yet it seems Gretchen removed it due to culturally sensitive content.

    Can you share how you replied to Larry, Phil, and Jack in a more sanitized way without the cultural baggage so the writings can pass muster and I would still have my curiosity satiated? Thank you.

  160. Patrick says:

    Guru – what can I say? I suppose I can try to sum it up there was nothing about the ‘holocaust’ nothing at all it was or it seemed to hinge on this. Are the Jews a ‘persecuted’ race or do they so to speak bring it on themselves. Purely as a matter of logic I would have to go with the second option. I am sure if you even want to approach it in this way primal people sort of understand whatever difficulties we have in an important sense we’bring it on ourselves’. I feel that in my own case appearance maybe notwithstanding even this ‘argument’ here with Gretchen I am sure in many ways I bring it on myself. So I don’t think this is so controversial it’s even obvious I would say. So if it is a ‘deep truth’ about humans on a personal basis why should it not also be true of groups maybe especially a group like the Jews who do hang together very well we might say AS a group.

    But Gretchen seems to just think this all ‘hate speech’ or ‘anti semitism’ or something. So as a psychotherapist if she tried to point out recurring patterns in a patient’s life and behavior leading to the conclusion that the patient has sort of brought it all on themselves…………………… that ‘hate’ speech hatred of the patient in this case. I hardly think so why then does Gretchen has a totally different way of dealing with ‘groups’ of people. If it is a ‘deep truth’ in one arena I don’t think it makes sense to totally forget about it in another arena. Since Jack has proclaimed primal theory to be Unified Field Theory he might like to explain how this works.It seems to me to be a ‘violation’ of the theory.

    • Quote: “Since Jack has proclaimed primal theory to be Unified Field Theory he might like to explain how this works.It seems to me to be a ‘violation’ of the theory..”

      Wow!!!! You’ve left me with an opening that I will gladly take.

      But first, a little preamble. Seeming you do realize that you are bringing all this “pissed off with Gretchen” upon yourself. I take it that either you revel (enjoy) being “pissed off” OR you just love to ‘blow your horn’ It seems to me you NEVER take in anything I say to or about you. Sooooooooo!!! let me repeat. You never did fathom the difference between “acting-out” your feelings from the appropriate expression of your feelings. You’re entrenched in the “blame game”. All you need to do is OWN your ‘pissed-off-ness’. Gretchen is responding from her perspective (brilliantly IMO) where as you seem lost even in what you are actually believing in.

      Had you just stopped for more than ‘one second’ re-action to your first three weeks therapist and instead of asking “what’s the point?” Thought a little more of what Leslie Pam was asking you. Like Donald Trump, you re-act from ‘off the top of your head’ without any deep thought. I know you feel you’ve got it all figured out, BUT most here, are not convinced; apparently.

      The notion in physics of a “Unified Field Theory” stems from the left lobe desire (thinking) that we’ve got to get ‘to the bottom of all things around us’. DO WE ????????? If so why?????? As in many other instances in our human evolution of thoughts (Philosophy if you like), we often find answers in the most unexpected places. I contend (yes that dirty word again), we are looking for that theory that will explain everything. Cases in point are; Copernicus and later Galileo in sorting out what was taking place in the ‘heavens’. The thinkers of the time thought it was all balderdash since to every one it seemed obvious that the world was flat (we couldn’t see the curvature) and that the sun obviously went from east to west, then underneath the flat earth and then did the same the next day.

      Both these men just began thinking a little deeper and theorized that:- “Wait a minute …. maybe it the world that is spinning and the sun and everything else (except the planets) was sort of still. Voila … that to these two guys, seemed to be a PERFECT explanation. Except to the likes of the “little old lady” related in Stephen Hawking’s book “A Brief History of time” first paragraph.

      My take (for what it’s worth) is that another “voila” moment took place when Danny Wilson, screamed for his dear life … got through it and then declared:- “I’ve done it … I don’t know what … but I can feel”. Janov at that moment hadn’t a clue what had gone on, BUT unlike most he didn’t resort to what he already knew to explain it. He took the trouble, since he’d recorded the incident, and played it over and over again … and SLOWLY a new kind of thinking in him started to take place. He was brilliant enough to try, over and over again to see if he could re-create the same kind of re-action. When he discovered he could, that was enough of a start; and then began (as I have since been informed) to write a diary of what was taking place in his new experiments.

      In conclusion:- We’ve been thinking that we could ONLY find the theory of everything (Unified Field Theory), in physics. It turns out that it was not in the science of physics, BUT turned up in psychology of all places. In that area of thought started (ostensibly) by Freud when we started to look into our very own selves (our brains). That elusive organ that beforehand seemed impossible for the brain to look into itself, and figure itself out. Therein was the beginnings of figuring out ourselves … our human-ness… our REAL NATURE.

      Patrick; you are stuck in your relative recent past with “What’s the point?” It was at that “point” you missed it ALL. There is another lobe to the brain, that has only in the last 40 odd years, been looked into. In-spite of the fact that “re-living is NOT a new phenomenon. Saul of Taurus did it … but explained it from what he already knew. Thomas of Aquinas did it and did the very same. My brother did it and did the very same. My mother did it and did the same. I too did it … not that this makes me special in any way, BUT I was NOT able to explain it, but did seek to. Then, viola, I read “The Primal Scream”, and suddenly it all fell into place. I just knew. don’t ask me how, what or why. I just knew … and I’ve never gone back to the old thinking …. merely to the OLD feelings.

      I hope this epistle (rant if you like) answers your question.


      • Patrick says:

        We have heard all of this before many many time before. You did not say what you meant when you said you did not think Israel had a right to exist. You must know what you meant so why not have a crack at that rather than endlessly playing your “Greatest Hits” or “Greatest Flops” as the case maybe.

        • I answered the question you asked. If you want my sentiments on the matter of the creation of Israel here it is:- I feel strongly that any peoples stealing land for those already holding it, as in the case of America, Australia, New Zealand and other place that we British took it into our hands to colonize.

          My feeling about the British holding Palestine as a protectorate I felt equally was an imposition on those people. As far as I am aware Jews had been living there for centuries … under what conditions I have not the slightest idea. I am willing to be informed.

          I am somewhat aware that Zionism wanted a Jewish state and because of biblical writings … those writings I find dubious to say the least … perhaps felt that a homeland in that region was an entitlement.

          After the fall of Germany in WW2 and the subsequent revelations and filming of the death camps, was to my way of reckoning; accurate. Had it been a hoax as you state I feel sure someone would have blown the whistle. Such a big lie is not possible in this day and age, contrary to your writing here.

          However with the aid of the British and the American, the Zionist, did finally get their homeland … on Palestinian land. It is my feeling that set off the the resentment of the Arab/Muslim states to be angry. I feel in hindsight it was a historical political mis-step … creating the Western Arab/Muslin divide … and continues to this very day. It was further exacerbated with the 1968 preemptive war and following it with the Israel occupation of the whole of Palestine … on the basis (how true I do not know), they, the Israelis, were “in threat” all around them.

          It is for me an example of “unintended consequences (effect, effect, effect). Nothing happens in ‘pure’ isolation.

          My take, which is yet repeating what I’ve already stated. All state borders are a man made construct that in the very beginning of time, did not exist. It resolves nothing in the final analysis. Could it, should it, have been different. My deep feeling on the Israeli conflict is that it was: on the larger scale of things: a political mistake … in terms of “world peace”.

          Finally, I need to say these are just MY notions and feelings,and, as far as I know, no one else’.

          We British, to my way of thinking are not neither brilliant , benevolent, nor special. Finally, I do not have any answers for the Jewish peoples. I am not one of them, therefore of a very limited sense of any of their difficulties.

          Hope that answers that question of yours.


          • Erron says:

            Don’t want to start another racist thread, but I read years ago that the original human inhabitants of Australia were gentle, vegetarian giants, who were ‘displaced’ by the present day aborigines. The quotes are because some evidence – the usual knife scrapes on bone etc. – suggested they may have been hunted to extinction. And the only ones who could have done that were the aborigines.

            There was a furore over the original research findings as I recall, and now you don’t hear about this any more. A pity, I would have liked confirmation one way or the other.

            We are all migrants with a dark past. Just sayin…

          • Patrick says:

            Sounds like a lot of waffling and quite unlike the figure you cut at that meeting and others on the question of the Israeli state where you were up front and hopping (mad) to throw your darts at Israel. But like a good hypocrite you are here now and would never ever put yourself in a situation where the primal powers that be would see you in a bad light god forbid as some kind of ‘anti semite’. It might even get you deleted or banned whoever would have thought it.

            • Patrick: It’s possible. If my comment gets deleted and considered antisemitic or anti Judaism So-be-it. That was all I could say on the matter without it becoming a long long screed.

              I am aware that there are many Jews that are not in ‘lock step’ with the Israeli government, either past or present. The overall point I was trying to make, was that I feel national borders are an imposition on total freedom. Along with my other even more of an imposition..


            • Patrick: It is highly likeley that at a meeting some years ago I might well have been “hopping mad”. However time has passed and I no long carry that feeling anymore; just the feeling I expressed to you in the ealier comment. Permit me to explain something that seemingly eludes you.

              I did a therapy, whereby I have the feeling, and express it rather than act-it-out, as I more then likely, did in the past and thereafter it is resolved and I am no longer “hopping mad” on the question at hand.

              You may also be right about my use of the word “appropriate”. I used the word more in order to differnetiate it from the phrase:- “act-out” I did attempt to show the difference in my second book … but it took quite a bit of explaining. I based it on (yep you guessed it) Janov’s meaning of expressing the feeling in such a manner as to resolvde it; rather than carry it around for the rest of my life. I highly recommend the therapy 🙂 🙂 .

              The last point was your suggestion that I was:- “But like a good hypocrite you are here now and would never ever put yourself in a situation where the primal powers that be would see you in a bad light god forbid as some kind of ‘anti semite’. It might even get you deleted or banned whoever would have thought it.” Again you may well be right that subliminally I am pandering to the “powers that be”. I will, and have endeavored, to give that some thought. So far it has not occurred to me, it is the case BUT … I’ll continue to consider it.


      • Erron says:

        “You never did fathom the difference between “acting-out” your feelings from the appropriate expression of your feelings.”

        I think this is what Janov means by ‘mock’ primalling. Saw a lot of it in my early therapy. Always looked false and never resolved anything, just led to the well-documented ‘grooving’.

        • Patrick says:

          “appropriate” is a funny word to apply to feelings……………appropriate by whose definition. Sounds like a bit of an ‘English Shopkeepers’ notion, appropriate as in just enough but not too much…………..this is the kind of narrowness anyone with a bit of indigenous are left cold by. Is ‘appropriate’ what can be accomodated in the 50 minute hour. Just the usual bunkum. As far as ‘acting out’ that is like calling someone a dirty name like bi polar or compulsive or manic depressive whatever whatever the usual psych jargon., Just the usual head tripping. I wonder if this will be ‘deemed’ ‘appropriate’ from the Head Office of Feeling Central?

  161. Patrick says:

    Guru – kind of continuing on this a little bit. Below is something I wrote to the blog and decided not to send (that sometimes happens with me though not a lot) anyway it brings Jack into it probably a bad idea as this might well start ANOTHER brush fire or even forest fire with that guy. And he loves the flames! But I put it on here because well to me is shows something of the real people whereas so much on here is ‘trying to look good’. This actually happened and I write about it as accurately as I could and as I remember it

    “All this talk about Israel, Jews and so on reminded me of one time I think around 2003 Jack and myself (we were ‘friends’ in those days) went to a film and meeting in Santa Monica about Syria. Syria which was not so much in the news yet but was on unfortunately for it already on the neo-con/Bush/Israeli list of counties to be attacked.

    The film was quite beautiful and interesting. It showed Syria as being make up of lots of different groups all co-operating and competing too throughout history. There were Sunni and Shia Arabs and other shades of that, different ethnic groups, Christians also and Jews also. They had all lived together in more or less harmony for many hundreds of years. I remember thinking this is a vulnerable state for a country to be in and hoped it could kind of all hold together.

    Then there was a talk afterwards. This was a kind of ‘lefty’ gathering the guy putting it on I ‘knew’ from the counterpunch website his name was Jon Landau and he was Jewish but as I say a ‘lefty’ which also describe I would say both Jack and my general kind of orientation. I liked what I had seen of his writings and actually it was kind of a thrill to meet someone I had been reading for quite a few years.

    There was Q&A’s and Jack being a kind of ‘out front’ guy was always very active in a situation like that. Jack stood up and in his ‘dramatic’ kind of way said along these lines “there is much talk here about Israel’s ‘right to exist’ the question is does Israel have a right to exist? (He pauses for dramatic effect) In effect – NO – it doesn’t” and then he continued on a bit about that. Some of the people in the room were not happy about that. I remember one old guy looked to be in his ’90’s stood up and made a point of shuffling out of the room. (in protest). Others followed and there was a kind of strange atmosphere then. Like we thought we were all in agreement and turns out we weren’t.

    I am not telling this to tell tales ouf of school about Jack (I have better ones lol)……………but I suppose to show how things can get so polarized here and I feel there is all this kind of ‘piling on’ on me. Gretchen (partly because of her own ‘failures’ as I see it) now seems to want to dump me into some kind of ‘anti-Semitic’ so called well dumpster. And that is one reason I call Jack a PR man……………..the ‘real’ Jack is more the guy at that meeting would people here expect him to say that. I don’t think they would. Not that I think there is anything wrong with him saying that, at the time I thought it was a bit ‘strong’ and a bit ‘provocative’ but as things have unfolded over the years and as I have thought more and read more about it I would agree more about that now. It is not even the issue so much of ‘right to exist’ but if you go into an area you essentially don’t belong in and then start making all kinds of trouble constantly well then any ‘right to exist’ needs to be doubly scrutinized. And IMHO Israel has totally failed that test”

  162. Sylvia says:

    I see what Phil was saying about why do we have to be subjected to so much obvious hate. It does not make for a very safe place to share feelings. I’m thinking of when I first started reading the blog and got up the courage to contribute. I wonder if any potential newbies are dissuaded from coming on board to share vulnerabilities. I viewed this blog as affirmation on how to feel and become well. What has happened to that purpose; it’s been hijacked by ‘act-outs’ and vents, as Jack has said. This isn’t a pile-on of Patrick, it’s just a wish for things to be more simple and nurturing and helpful. I think some have lost heart and left like Tom and Vicki. I miss their input.

    • David says:

      Good points Sylvia, thanks for this.

      Patrick, Sylia’s comment here made me reflect on something you said to me a while ago that I had a delayed reaction to but which I’ve trawled back up through the blog to retrieve:

      “As for yourself David I see a lot of ‘fatigue’ in your thinking. It seems ‘tired’ and conventional and just imbued with this weak Guardian like tea.”

      At the time I thought of letting it go and wait for the next time you used your tactics on me, but why bother I’ll say it now. I really resent the sly, mean, underhand way you try to attack my vulnerabilities and not for the first time with this kind of comment. Most people having lived through my experiences would be dead by now and that makes me strong not weak irrespective of the current state of my health. If it was my blog I would kick you off, but I guess the general idea is to give you enough rope to hang yourself. And from what I can see you have been up there swinging for a long time now. I think you would probably like to get kicked off so then can say definitively to anyone who will listen (poor souls) that the Institute censors people. I just hope things come to a head sooner rather than later.

      • Patrick says:

        David – it sounds like you have done well with the cards you were given – and good for you on that. Still what I said to you there was/is my honest reaction. A lot of your ‘ideas’ DO seem weak but you are not alone. You fit into a pretty big stream even a mainstream you might say. Fine but I do have the right and the ability to not agree I see the mainstream as pretty disastrous an any level whether it is the environment or the climate or our perpetual wars for perpetual peace whatever. People (here) pretty much know this but at the same time go crazy if it is challenged. Gretchen being a case in point I still dont know why she censored the ‘wise sheik’ but there you go she did/does. I really don’t like this.

    • Erron says:

      Yes. I even thought of starting a forum myself, but felt it would be disloyal or something, not really sure. I’ve run forums before and never did/would tolerate some of the stuff seen on here: it attacks vulnerable people and discourages their sharing, and gives ‘primal outsiders’ a very bad view of what the inside must be like.

  163. Patrick says:

    Whatever Gretchen feels I think the ‘wise sheik’ is wise

  164. Otto Codingian says:

    I have enjoyed some documentaries on neanderthals and other homos on youtube. it is interesting that the experts say that man has been a big meater for a long time. i still feel guilty about eating meat though. i am not sure the lament about what certain people speak about on this blog. you are not anywhere near a live blogger oh this blog who cant be stopped from talking. you know you are not going to like what certain people say, so why read what they say. i must be missing something, i am not very people-intelligent. whatever. back to terminator 3.

    • Linda says:

      Hey Otto! I don’t believe it. I just spent over an hour of my time trying to express what you just said [ for the second time here on this blog ] in about one and a half sentences. I actually tried to quote what you said before on the blog….which was basically Just ‘scroll past’ certain people’s entries since you know you are not going to like what they say? You don’t need to ban him from the blog. Ban yourselves from reading his entries! Send the figger to Coventry! Seem s so simple to me too Otto. Are we indeed missing something? Seems to me that all we are missing is having to wade through a lot of verbal muck. I am also not very people intelligent either I guess. So maybe that is why I like reading your…”drivel….vents and thoughtless assholeness”. Keep on driveling Otto. You go back to your terminator 3….. and I’ll go back to Midsomer Murders.

      • David says:

        You mean pretend Patrick isn’t really here? That wouldn’t work for me, especially if I am mentioned by name in one of his posts or it’s addressed to me personally and I feel affected by something he’s said. Maybe we just have to accept the limitations of a blog, but I found myself wondering how it would be if this was a live group. Maybe then somethings would get resolved. There again, perhaps not…

  165. Otto Codingian says:

    what will they call the next man. homo nuclurus? survived the idiots who pushed the button? will it be hillary, the donald, the putin, the pakistanman,iranman, someothere warlike man who thoughtlessly destroys us all? will that put an end to texting while driving? see, here is some drivel. dont read it, knowing that i can be full of vents, drivel, and thoughtless assholishness. bye.

  166. Otto Codingian says:

    The Presidio. good movie. action adrenaline. sassy meg ryan crying while she is telling her cop boyfriend why it is hard to let him in, and that she loves him. goody. don’t know what more to say. why do i even need to say it to anyone? don’t know. this gem was waiting for me years later. not sure why i didn’t see it when it came out. watching tv with the cat and dog, hoping that the cat will get better. z to leave in 2 weeks. MOM! mom, listen to me. ha! they really don’t make them like that anymore.

  167. Larry: Your explanation that our overreaction (and I only stand aghast in awe at what a hideously absurd understatement the word “overreaction” would be in this case given the raw quantity of news coverage) to 9/11 explains only part of the story.

    Do you have any idea how many trillions of dollars US prime military contractors suckled from the American taxpayer to finance two wars??. It would make tens of millions of welfare queens blush in unison for the rest of their natural lives. It was in the contractors’ absolute best financial interest to keep the 9/11 news cycle front and center at all costs.

    It’s a similar theme to the Economic Hit Men book you talked about, only the financial victims this time around were the Americans themselves instead of foreigners.

  168. Over the long run having Trump or Hillary in office is not the biggest financial problem the US faces.

    There’s actually a much more obscure task which needs to be worked on as soon as possible for it is a ridiculous injustice which has gone on for way too long:

    Obliterate Grover Norquist’s taxpayer pledge that he pressured Republican congressmen to sign.

    That cockamamie pledge needs to be destroyed or invalidated. I cannot overstate the corrosive effects that pledge has had on our country. Removing the Republicans who signed the pledge from office altogether is the best immediate way.

  169. Phil says:

    If I’m participating in this group I can’t ignore anyone’s messages; that doesn’t work for me.
    Here’s a website listing the top 10 conspiracy forums:

    I encourage Patrick to join one of those and leave us alone.
    Alternately we can create our own new WordPress blog. Maybe entitled “conspiracy theories, and the Middle East before breakfast”

    • Phil: Like you I read everything on the blog. I only respond to those comments that inspire me (whatever is meant by “inspiring”). I find for myself that no comments that I can remember bother me, as I put all comments down to the feelings of the person submitting them. I care little whether Patrick leaves or not … except that I really hope it doesn’t destroy the blog. However, I do feel Gretchen can handle it and prevent that from happening

      This is something I have found it a great help from my therapy, and even am able to use it in my private life with my Jimbo … for the most part. There are a few exceptions and one occurred yesterday. I did find for me, after Jimbo went shopping without me, to be able to have the rest of my feeling about him on my bed and then when he returned it was over fore me. Sadly, for Jimbo it went on for the rest of the day … until just before going to bed; I made him laugh. That seemed to end it for him.

      Anyway that’s the way it work for me. I am not suggesting it would for others … but I feel good putting it out there.


    • Larry says:

      On one end of the spectrum two people yelling and screaming at each other can be therapeutic if they eventually get to the root of what they are so angry about and come to understand themselves better and maybe resolve their differences. On the other end of the spectrum is the bully picking on the weak and vulnerable because it makes the bully feel good at the other person’s expense. Is it not appropriate to step in and try to stop the bullying, or do we just stand by and let him have his way so long as it isn’t me being picked on.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – It might be worth considering that the idea of a ‘conspiracy theory’ was first concocted by the CIA to discredit people who had a hard time believing that a ‘lone deranged gunman’ killed JFK. So the idea has a dubious heritage. Of course ‘conspiracy theories’ can and often do get things very wrong but at least as big a problem I think is the inability to ‘link’ anything. Everything is ‘coincidence’ and there seems to be some kind of perverse pride in as I call it the ‘inability to link things together’ . To quote tomatobubble that is being Boobus Americanus. I think you fall into that a fair amount.

      • Phil says:

        It looks like you are again hoping for a discussion or argument on conspiracies.
        Best would be if everyone would just stop providing that, so you could see how little interest there actually is, which means little interest in you, because that’s almost all you have to talk about. It’s unfortunate that you seemingly have no interest in exploring the roots of that obsession. As far as I can tell it’s taken over your life.

        • Patrick says:

          I dunno Phil wasn’t it you that brought it up? So I am ‘hoping’ for a discussion you started? I do believe I ‘explore the roots’ of a lot of this stuff in my own way. Maybe not the ‘standard’ way or the way I am supposed to or that you think I am supposed to. Your last sentence well it’s like you have no idea at all you just ‘guess’ and throw that out there. Why don’t you stick a ‘label’ on it maybe ‘compulsive’ or something. That usually passes muster for some reason. Even on that level has anything ever been done that was worth doing that might not have been a bit ‘compulsive’ I know according to primal all of this is somehow ‘resolved’ and we reach some kind of ‘balance’ which really seems close to death actually. I havn’t honestly seen so much of that at all. Mostly just a ‘theory’ (something someone made up)

          • Phil says:

            We are off slightly from your usual foray into conspiracies, or at least from their actual content. About those obsessions taking over your life; I hope I’m wrong, but that’s what you seem to show us here. Maybe there’s a lot of other stuff going on which I’d be more interested in hearing about.

          • Patrick: I’m on Phil’s page on this one. The effort you seem to put into all this hoax, lies and conspiracies, is similar to the great effort you put into Gentle Giant. If only you would put your efforts into where all this anger, really belongs; I feel you you would resolve a lot of it. It’s not easy … BUT it is possible.

            I thought your admission that you are a slob was a great step forward and very honest. Few would ever be willing to say that. Kudos to you.

            That is the essence of Primal therapy, as I see it, and I do have a sense that on reading the book way back when, you too had a feeling that some of your problems could be resolved; for why else did you come here?

            Be honest; and just tell us on the blog what went through your mind on reading the book and making the sacrifice you did to get here.


            • Phil says:

              I meant with my comment to Patrick that it would be nice to hear stuff unrelated to conspiracy theories, and not necessarily for therapeutic reasons as he may not be interested in that at this point.

            • Patrick says:

              Jack: this SOUNDS nice and everything but something tells me I am being ‘partonized’ and maybe worse that a trap is being set for me. There is an essence of truth in that I put ‘great effort’ into things that are questionable in the sense of what exactly is the ‘pay off’ for me? I mean there is obviously an immediate pay off or I would not be doing it but in some kind of long term way probably not. There is also an aspect of taking on things that are way too big for me things that are beyond me but I try anyway but the fact remains they are too big for me which becomes clear to me even over time. Like that prayer about knowing the difference between the things you can change etc etc.Anyway like I don’t know the difference. Still I am inclined to say ‘that’s me’ you kind of lay out something that YOU would approve of or some way I could or might be that would meet your approval that’s I suppose what I mean by being patronized. This is a kind of problem I have with this blog and I suppose primal in general in that maybe to only way to get ‘approval’ is to say something bad about myself. That’s all why I call it a trap where does a trap like that lead…………………..nowhere that is why it’s called a trap. But it’s true also I am afraid of being trapped one reason I never ‘settled down’ even the word ‘settle down’ like a mother might say to a child ‘settle down now’ like relax it’s ok I usually don’t feel that…………………I am more like those hares I sometimes saw as a child around the farm trapped and in great pain………………

              • Patrick: a few things in this comment of your worthy of quoting, and responding to.

                1) “…… this SOUNDS nice and everything but something tells me I am being ‘partonized’ and maybe worse that a trap is being set for me. “. I don’t sets traps for people … that’s not my modus operandi and I too find that anyone trying to trap anyone else; is something I dislike intensely. The police are for ever doing it and did it to you, and me. ‘Patronizing’ … not quite sure in what context you meant it, but that is something else I deliberately try to avoid. I find it indirect and far from straight. If I don’t like someone I am not shy and will tell them so.

                2) “problem I have with this blog and I suppose primal in general in that maybe to only way to get ‘approval’ is to say something bad about myself.” Wrong, wrong and wrong again. You seemingly FAIL to see what Primal is all about. It’s about expressing your feelings and not acting them out; ie. “blame game”. It’s mostly about all the bad thing that was done to US. If one wishes to admit to bad things they’ve done to another, that I find honest. Nothing more, no hidden agenda, as far as I can see.

                3) “There is an essence of truth in that I put ‘great effort’ into things that are questionable in the sense of what exactly is the ‘pay off’ for me? I mean there is obviously an immediate pay off or I would not be doing it ” Just tell us what the ‘pay off’ is to you. That would be very honest and very revealing. The rest just seems like an endless argument to convince us … which it seems is not happening.

                4) ” ….. that would meet your approval ” I am not in the business of approving of anyone. I far too imperfect to get into that one … it would be a case of ‘kettle calling the frying pan black”. If it comes across that way that’s too bad. I can only try to prevent it. If I get a sense that it might come across that way, I’ll do my best to rectify it.

                5) “But it’s true also I am afraid of being trapped one reason I never ‘settled down’ ” That’s understandable I don’t think any of us liked being trapped. However, there are degrees of ‘being trapped’ Trapped in a cage, as you mentioned about the hares, or Prison is petty daunting … being trapped into saying something that is unintended, for me is not that terrible.


  170. miguel says:

    Hi all
    Finally the medical comunity has much to say about childhood traumas and how it afects aduld life. Better late than never . TEd talk


    • Miguel: I have notice that also and it does seem like some progress. What I feel is missing is for the Medical profession to seek prevention, rather than trying to route for cure.


    • Phil says:

      That is a very good video. We had been discussing here a while back about that research on ACE. It’s a great development and I hope it will lead to an understanding on what kind of interventions are really effective, and what needs to be prevented. Both are necessary is what I think, otherwise the problem will keep cycling from one generation to the next.

  171. Patrick says:

    I have complained a few times of the ‘bias’ in regards to the election now in the papers the Huffington Post specifically here and the Guardian in the UK. Nowadays I no longer read the NY Times and it seems they are no better if this ‘tomato bubble’ guy is to be believed (he is)

  172. Otto Codingian says:

    Mooooom! Mom, listen to me!
    “Well, hello there
    My it’s been a long, long time
    How am I doin’?
    Oh, I guess that I’m doin’ fine
    It’s been so long now but it seems now
    That it was only yesterday
    Gee, ain’t it funny how time slips away”

  173. I’ll imitate Otto & Margaret in a sense and share a little bit from my own life. I’m definitely not a pack rat or a hoarder of any sort. I usually keep a reasonably clean and organized home with minimal clutter, yet I am not very good at the deep cleaning aspects such as scrubbing bathtubs and toilets, sweeping and shampooing carpets, etc. Not just ordinary clean, but spic-and-span sparkly clean.

    Ultra-deep housecleaning just infuriates me overall, but I have relatives visiting in a few days and I have to finish it. I was simply not wired to be a deep housecleaner in life.

    • How about Gretchen, Barry, Phil, and Patrick and Otto and so forth? Do you all deep clean your respective homes like good little boys and girls? Just curious.

      • Phil says:

        In my house we have resolved that issue by having a cleaning person come every 2 weeks. It also resolves disagreements over cleanliness priorities. The only thing is,
        the day before she’s due to arrive I have to put away a lot of my valued items or never see them again. Also we wouldn’t want to leave all the dishes for her etc. so I don’t enjoy the process or the money spent on this.

        • Phil says:

          Now my wife has hired someone to work on the lawn and that is another big issue, because I like doing it myself. But the job I do doesn’t meet her satisfaction.
          I might as well not have a yard, if I can’t have the pleasure of fooling around with it myself. I prefer a natural wild appearance, and have let a good portion grow wild.
          There is a small forest in the back which provides privacy and is an area no longer needing to be mowed.

          • You provided excellent responses to my question, Phil. Thank you. I agree with you on natural wild appearance being desirable as long as the sheltering vegetation doesn’t attract vermin which can creep into the home. I use a cordless electric lawn mower.

            Now that you’ve done your part, let’s allow others to share a rich tapestry of their lives where housecleaning and outdoor maintenance is concerned, shall we?

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – Short version I am a slob

    • Guru: Your comment triggered something in me. My father was for ever reciting the mantra “a place of everything, and everything in it’s place”. I bought into it, but my brother went in the opposite direction and hated order. My Jimbo is super clean to a point that I find a little too far. Being a medical tech he forever reciting the mantra “Hygiene starts with the hands”. He demand that I wash my hands after doing almost anything.

      I feel that over doing the cleanliness, can lead to the immune system not able to respond to minimal germs. Cleanliness I do like, BUT not overdone as I deem it. On the other hand I am obsessed with order, and perhaps for that reason love creating computer database applications. My Jimbo is not so concerned with order … so there is something of a conflict. I’d like it to be more of complementing one another … BUT that discussion never gets off the ground.


    • Daniel says:

      We too have a cleaning lady come in once a week. After doing our own cleaning for years it’s now a luxury we got used to. We also got to the point where putting money into cleaning is ok with us – even getting the curtains dry cleaned every once in a while.

      The back garden is different. We used to have a small lawn surrounded by bushes which I took care of, usually just with a manual lawn mower (they are really good), but three years ago we replaced the lawn with a garden which my wife mostly takes care of. There’s quite a lot of work to be done. It has many plants of various kinds and it looks purposely wild.

      I like the type of garden where one can see and feel the seasons. I like the periodicity, the tree wearing orange and then getting naked and then the new leaves begin to come out to finally blossom in the spring and later give fruit.

      As a child our house was surrounded with trees: Avocado, Banana, Peach, Plum, Loquat, Pomegranate, and one poinciana (on which I used to climb and stay on for what seems now like hours). We also had a small lawn, flower beds my mom

      • Daniel says:

        … (clicked the wrong button) … flower beds my mom cultivated unprofessionally, and an entrance full of planters. Writing about it now makes me miss it.

      • Phil says:

        It sounds like you have a nice garden. I enjoy the seasons also. The leaves are starting to turn colors and to fall, and I’ve always liked autumn. What I do every year is collect the leaves and bring to them to the vegetable garden for composting. This is a large job which normally won’t be done until sometime in November or early December.
        My wife is bothered about how the yard looks but I feel differently. She wants it
        very neat and tidy and I prefer a wild look. So this is an area of disagreement for us.
        The leaves have to be removed from grassy areas otherwise they’ll kill the grass, so there’s no question about that. I’d leave leaves under bushes where they can compost but she wants that all cleaned up too.
        We have a large open area where the kids played soccer when they were younger and we still have goals.
        This weekend maybe I’ll start cleaning up the leaves even though only a few have fallen and it could wait.

        • Daniel says:

          Always wanted a vegetables bed. What do you grow and how do they turn out? And what about pests?

          • Phil says:

            I always plant tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans, as well as a few herbs. I have oregano, which is perennial, and also plant basil and parsley. This past year a friend gave me some garlic for planting and that turned out really well. The main emphasis is on tomatoes; this past season i had 18 tomato plants, 3 cucumber plants and 3 poles with green beans. I have a fence around the garden but pests still can be a problem. Deer don’t jump in, as they did in the past, but they lean over the fence and snack on whatever they can reach or what is growing on the fence.
            Ground hogs and rabbits can dig a tunnel and some years I have seen them entering the garden. After many years having the garden, much of the fence is buried, so that is helpful.
            This year we had a very good harvest of tomatoes, green beans, and garlic. The cucumbers were done early. We like fresh salads and my wife makes gazpacho.

            • Daniel says:

              Doesn’t that mean you get a lot of tomatoes all at once (hence the gazpacho)? One of the trees around my childhood home, the plum, gave so much fruit at season that we actually begged the neighbors to pick up crates of it.

              So, how do you plan so you’ll get your reasonable and continuous supply of vegetables?

              • Phil says:

                I buy a variety of small tomato plants from the local nursery and plant them, if I can, around May 15th or later when frost is no longer much of a risk around here. I try to pick early producing varieties good for salads.
                We eat a lot of salads and in August tomatoes start taking up a greater and greater proportion of the ingredients until a point is reached of eating purely tomato salads.
                We like our tomatoes and give few of them away. During the rest of the year I avoid store bought tomatoes as they hardly compare to my home grown ones.
                Gazpacho uses a lot of tomatoes, so that does come in handy, but it’s also because my wife is a Spaniard and gazpacho is one of the things she makes.
                Right now the cucumbers and tomatoes are done but green beans are still coming.
                We have already been discussing how I will arrange the garden for next year.
                I have fun working in the garden and enjoy being outside.
                Next year I want to take back lawn maintenance from the guy my wife hired. That only started this past September. I’m glad that he can make a living but I really want to do it myself even if I have to buy a tractor to keep my wife happy. She was complaining that we don’t have the right tools and that the property was looking so bad, she was ashamed and ready to move out. I think she was exaggerating but that does show the challenges I face. .She was quite upset about it.and insists that I can’t satisfy her standards after many years of trying. She also does it herself but the lawn mower was having issues and she felt overwhelmed. I was at work and she saw this guy working on a neighbor’s property and the dirty deed was done.


  174. miguel says:

    Jack Phil .

    The fact the medical profession is being aware of the effects that adverse childhood experiences have on adult health, means a big step on the right direction. And also that they say it is a problem that concerns the whole society not just the therapist, doctors, social services, but the society in general and they are taking actions on prevention. What I am not sure it is that they use the right therapy to heal childhood wounds. But anyway it means a big step forward. I first heard about the ACE study in this page. thanks


  175. Margaret says:

    > Phil, do you mean the cleaning lady displaces your stuff and then you can’t find it anymore?
    > Guru, mmm, I like to keep it more or less clean, but am a bit like you in disliking that thorough detailed stuff.
    > I solved it more or less by having a cleaning lady every four weeks, for half a day, so she can do the corners that are hard to get to etc.
    > right now my place keeps being put partially upside down by the guys that are installing the central heating ..
    > from today on it works as in heating, but the thermostat still needs to be installed tomorrow.
    > I have hot water in the bath, but should not use the kitchen sink yet as it needs some work tomorrow still.
    > it is hard to have all my kitchen stuff piled up in bags etc. as the cupboard under the sink is also not ready, argh, and tools everywhere..
    > keeping my cats inside and safe is the hardest part but so far so good.
    > got my keys back from the workers today after my stay with my friends, so that feels also better, I can have more control on when they come, and can take a bath without worrying they might suddenly show up…
    > in a way having family over is a good incentive to do that little extra cleaning, that happens to me and seems to have to happen to you too Guru, haha, you will be happy afterwards hopefully..
    > it helps me to use oldfashioned Marseille soap as it smells so good and clean..
    > you can put on John Lennon’s Cleanup time maybe ..
    > M

  176. Phil says:

    Margaret, Sometimes I suspect the cleaning lady of doing that, or messing up the computer by cleaning the keyboard; the speakers then don’t work, and other things.
    I have reason to believe she’s the cause.
    On the day before she’s coming I warn my son that it’s a “red alert”, but he doesn’t take precautions.

    Guru, Is this a one time thing because of your visitors or is it a larger issue?
    Have you tried Mr. Clean? It probably works well with Brawny paper towels. In our house “fabuloso” is a widely used and it’s also a good vocabulary word

  177. Thank you Margaret, Patrick, and Phil for your responses. Margaret, I have to honestly say I wasn’t expecting you to respond because so much of cleaning and appreciating the results requires good eyesight and I was figuring it wouldn’t matter that much to you, anyway. Guess I was wrong? Kudos to you for trying your best at it.
    Phil, I use several different cleaners. I have three small storage areas with various household cleaners. Pine-Sol works well enough for hard floors. The issue with my relatives is a complex one I would rather not go into here, That’s a much more deep topic than simple housecleaning.

    Patrick, slobs have a lot on their minds and I can see where they are coming from when viewing menial tasks as a waste of time.

    I learned a lot from the responders AND the non-responders today. Thank you!

  178. Otto Codingian says:

    i wash my hands after going to the bathroom at work (hospital). I have to use my own soap because the harsh stuff they supply made my hands itch horribly until i figured out that super soap was the cause. then you go into an elevator and someone coughs forcefully. i haven’t cleaned my floors at home for years. just getting tired. fungi have caused much havoc in my life. dermatology doctor on radio said we are overdoing it with the handwashing, hurts our skin. george carliin did a whole bit on eatiung dirt or something like that. my grandma was superclean possibly because my mom caught polio and died. good nigyht.

    • Otto:- I have been for sometime aware of the “over-cleanliness”. Due mainly to seeing my Jimbo and his mantra (“cleanliness starts with the hands”) from his days in training to become a medical tech. The surprise and revelation is that he’s more prone to infections than I am.

      My mother told us a story about two children when were young and both got diphtheria; a little girl, and a same age little boy. The girl came form a super clean home BUT she died. The boy came from a very rough and dirty slum, but survived. Not sure what my mother was trying to tell us BUT she, my mother was into herbal cures and there was a herb shop close to our home that my mother frequented..

      We kids hated the herb cure and most of them tasted nasty. BUT she kept us great heath. We hardly ever had much by way of illnesses.

      My Jimbo is surprised at the way I seem not to get infections like flue ,,, yet he’s very prone to all those things. By comparison he claims I am NOT very clean.


  179. Otto Codingian says:

    We haven’t had people/friends to any house that we have lived in for the past 40 years, except maybe for a year in Crestline, where my wife did not have to work. We have not had people over since we are slobs. We could not have our son and his wife over except once, when we spent days cleaning. I used to try to clean once a week, but that has gone by the wayside. We have a gardener for the front yard but the back yard is kind of wild, pine cone clutter from squirrel chewings all over the ground now. my neighbor has to get oh his roof with a leaf blower to clean off pine needles from my bjg tree which may one day fall and destroy both our homes. oh yeah mice and cockroaches! ha! dog crap and catbox with tapeworms. ha. dont come over!

    • Sylvia says:

      Dear Otto: You are funny–but thank you for the warning.
      I recall getting into trouble when cleaning up the living room because Mom could never find anything where she had left it, so I just went and did my homework and let it go. Got good study habits anyways out of it but not good housekeeping habits.

  180. Patrick says:

    This thing about the only way to get approval here is to say something bad about myself does inhibit me or even say something bad about my family or even culture. I feel a loyalty to them I don’t want to be blabbing about them and telling tales out of school. I was a loyal little boy even if it hurt a lot too. This even ties into this Jewish thing like we were very Catholic and if I was to tell ‘bad stories’ about the Catholic Church or something that would meet with approval by the Jews like ‘see how stupid and superstitious these Catholics are’ so I don’t want to be disloyal in that way or even in any way. And even Janov was a Jew and most of the powers that be are Jewish I don’t see actually much ‘stories’ from them about how ‘stupid’ their background was/is. Even now you wont find Gretchen or Barry actually telling us much that is ‘bad’ about them. That’s not their role their role is to be better than us and I resent that. They have an image to maintain and they do but it seems my job is to break any image I have and just say what is ‘bad’ about me. Like I get approval for saying I am a slob and even encouragement to tell us more. Tell us more bad stuff about youreself Patrick and you will be loved here. Tell us how all your concerns with ‘hoaxes’ are nothing but a projection from your childhood there you were truly hoaxed so your present day concerns mean nothing and are just a symptom of a badly functioning brain. You can ‘settle down’ now nothing at all there to see, just become like all the rest brain washed and believing what they are told. One problem though is I don’t believe that at all not for one minute do I believe that. Truth is stranger that fiction and I think it is my job to tease out the difference plus I enjoy doing it there is that ‘pay off’ even if in the long run it probably means nothing……………I love this little ditty but the words are ‘deep’………..

    • Phil says:

      I don’t think there is pressure for anyone to say something bad about themselves. I think it’s more an emphasis to talk about yourself, if possible.
      I assume you refer to a payoff obtained from researching conspiracy type information.
      I don’t know what that would be. Entertainment or some type of satisfaction? But does it in some way benefit you or other people?

    • Phil says:

      This is a primal therapy blog and that is clearly the main thing connecting us, I think An interest in therapy implies personal issues or concerns and that can be something to talk about here but it doesn’t amount saying bad things about yourself. It does mean allowing yourself to be vulnerable. You seem to have difficulty with that as you are so often in an attacking mode.

  181. Otto: Thank you for sharing your stories about the hand washing and how too tired you are to clean much of anything. I can relate to everything you said. Like you I seem to feel as though I am in a middle of a war zone and I am too beaten down by it trying to please everybody so that my life’s ship sails somewhat smoothly. Cleaning house adds to my stress although sweeping floors with an electric sweeper does have a mildly soothing, hypnotic quality to it. Perhaps its the rhythm and the whirr of the sweeper motor.
    From my experiences, casinos are the absolute worst place for germs next to hospitals. I’ve learned it’s mandatory to wash my hands frequently in those places. 99% of casino patrons comically ignore this directive because of the all-consuming allure of the next slot machine jackpot. The vast majority of people using the bathrooms in those places hurry by the hand washing stations so they can run back to the gambling machines and tables. Can you imagine someone having their hand up their butt from using toilet paper, then pressing a slot machine button which you later sit in front of and press the button yourself? What if I eat French fries at the buffet afterwards? Ugggghly!!!!. The thought of my unwittingly eating the contents of an unknown stranger’s behind is pretty daunting, wouldn’t you agree? It does help me to understand why Howard Hughes was such an extreme germophobe during the last few years of his life when he owned a bunch of Vegas casinos in the 60’s and 70’s.

    Patrick; Your last post here was a funny one with many subtle truisms. You’re still a slob, though, and you need to tell us more bad things about yourself if you want to achieve true salvation on a cellular level.

  182. David says:

    Interesting peak in people’s homes, gardens and domestic habits. Since I have students at my house nearly every day it forces me into keeping the place in good order. When I’ve been completely off work there’s been a definite tendency to have things slide, though I’ve improved a lot generally since my twenties when my flat or room would routinely look like a bomb had hit it. My domestic tip if you don’t work from home in the way I do is to have frequent house guests… My lawn mower frustratingly starting smoking while I was half way through what was hopefully going to be the last cut until next summer. I didn’t really want to folk out on another one and was contemplating what to do next when a friend I hadn’t seen in ages showed up. After a decent catch up, I showed him my lawn upon which he disappeared and came back a while later with his lawn mower and finished the job for me. Now everything looks very neat and I’m very grateful! So now I owe him one now. My return favour is starting to look like inviting him to see My Scientology Movie with me, which he should be interested in as he’s an ex-scientologist. Or maybe he wants to put it all behind him. I’ll see.

  183. Sylvia says:

    In reflecting about being trapped and getting approval for saying something bad about ourselves.
    I think we have to look at our own weaknesses, even if that’s saying something bad about ourselves, whether it is to ourselves, a friend or in the blog. It kind of brings it out in the open. After I say something here I begin to think about it and remember my feelings back then of how it was. I don’t feel it is all about approval. In the long run it’s approval for going through something painful to get better and improve my life.
    Being trapped. I’ve had that feeling too, but I know it has origins; something to get to some day.

    • Sylvia says:

      Also, I don’t mean to negate your feeling of being trapped here in the present. It is your valid feeling of what is going on for you, Patrick.

  184. Phil says:

    I see there’s a new film coming out called “Denial”. It looks like one I’ll want to see.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – I could say quite a bit about this but I’m afraid it would fall foul of the ‘censor’. So much for ‘free speech’ and as I said before pretty much exactly mirrors the situation in society at large. That’s how ‘different’ PT is as presently constituted. Nothing at all ‘revolutionary’ about it but total status quo. Pass on now nothing to see here………….

      • Patrick says:

        Phil – I read that article and it is interesting several times Lipstadt mentions vaccines and how not believing they are good for you is equated with holocaust denial. Vaccine denial !! To me she is at least consistent then – consistently wrong. Her ‘evidence’ for the holocaust is the ‘stories’ of not only the victims but also the ‘perpetrators’…………………oops one problem here most of the ‘perpetrators’ were tortured to the extent of the commander of Auchwitz having his testicles crushed and 3 days and nights of unspeakable torture by a British ‘hit team’………………oops I wonder why they needed to do that? That’s just about the same as KSM ‘admitting’ to 9/11 after I dunno a few hundred water boarding’s. Not real ‘evidence’ at all.

        Also Lipstadt ‘won’ that court case which ‘proves’ nothing either after all OJ ‘won’ his trial too. It seems Irving made a mistake in accusing Lipstadt of calling him a ‘holocaust denier’ he should have said ‘yes I am’ and be done with it. Though that also has problems as it is ‘illegal’ in lots of countries and I believe Irving was jailed in Austria for that very thing. Pretty much a can’t win situation certain people have a knack for that – putting someone in a ‘no win’ situation.

        It might be interesting for Gretchen to see this movie at least it seems to show there is a possible issue here it is far from being all done and dusted as she seems to think.

    • David says:

      Looks good Phil. Thanks for the heads up.

  185. Patrick says:

    To me vaccines are now actually a ‘true holocaust’ it has been a holocaust for a whole generation of children of which I know quite a few. It is interesting that Lipstadt would be so against anyone questioning them maybe it could be used as some kind of test – if Lipstadt is against it it is probably a good idea. I have said before it would be a great cause for the primal powers that be to get into the issue of vaccine damage but sadly that is probably too ‘real world’ for them. Cry after split milk rather than preventing it happening in the first place. My sister has 2 kids that I believe are vaccine damaged and it is interesting in a morbid kind of way to think in our generation we were damaged by the whole way of raising children, now they know better on that score but they still find a way to damage the children. It’s not the parents fault it is idiots like Lipstadt who promote this stuff. And this damage by vaccines is even worse than what we went through with it seems sadly very little chance of recovery. It’s typical that an idiot like Lipstadt would be combating a non existent holocaust on the one hand but actively promoting a real one on the other……………..this is a video from this Vaxxed movie there are loads and loads of others sad to say……..

  186. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > and Daniel,
    > it is refreshing to read about tomato and cucumber plants and animals snacking on them over the fence..
    > pests? I assumed those would be diseases or parasites, , did not know that term also appplied to rabbits, groundhogs and deer maybe. and to us then come to think of it.
    > but actually they all help to spread the plants seeds, so they are useful, and only a pest as they compete with us for the same food.
    > must admit I never liked the term, as I don’t like the ‘bad weed’ concept either. unwanted at some spots yes, but it all is useful in its own ways isn’t it?
    > like that concept of a wild part of garden, Phil, over the years my mother managed to make her entire big garden into a wild one, full of hidden surprises. she prohibited an occasional gardener to mowe the lawn as she wanted to preserve the wild flowers and weeds, and just allowed him to keep the edge into a shape she could still spot upcoming cars if she wanted to drive off .
    > she kept digging up wild plants and brnging them over, and it really became beautiful, without much maintenance at all in the end.
    > hope the next habitants will appreciate it..
    > M

    • Daniel says:

      I must say, Phil’s description of what goes on in his garden was very picturesque (appetizing too). Your description of your Mom’s garden’s hidden surprises somehow brought to mind Frances Burnett’s ‘The Secret Garden’ which was one of the great books of my childhood, next to Enid Bliyton’s book series (‘Famous Five’, ‘Secret Seven’), Karl May’s (‘Old Shatterhand’ and ‘Winnetau’ series), and Mark Twain (the usual suspects..).

  187. Daniel says:

    Denying the destruction of European Jews and denying the beneficial effects of vaccines have nothing in common, and comparing the two is completely mistaken. The only thing the two might share is that those who deny the first may have a bigger propensity to claim the second.

    The main issue in my opinion is that there are strong forces now trying, whether intentionally or not, to undo the hard-won achievements of Enlightenment. Reason, as a means of collecting information and basing one’s decisions on, is facing headwinds like we haven’t seen in 300 years.

    Patrick, for example, isn’t really interested in vaccines or global warming. Nor is he interested in history or what happened to Jews throughout that history. Or rather, he is interested only as far as it can prove the moral judgment he already made: that vaccines are the ‘real holocaust’, that global warming is a hoax, that Jews are despicable and are responsible for everything negative in this world. So, when studying these subjects he will only actively look for that type of information. He said that much himself and he constantly displays it.

    This is how it used to be done until the end of the middle ages, the exact opposite of how modern studies are conducted: You approach the subject curiously and impartially, you gather the data, analyze it according to certain standards, and only then reach findings from which you can later, if you like, draw moral conclusions.

    With the advent of social media these anti-reason, anti-Enlightenment forces have an unprecedented and unmediated access to the public opinion arena. Furthermore, Google and Facebook in particular have sucked up advertising budgets at alarming speed thus rendering the traditional media’s economic model obsolete. With declining revenues that media is forced to chase cash and cannot invest as before in real journalism that traditionally not only provided hard news about what’s happening in the world but also, through editorial standards, made a value judgment manifested, for example, in slogans such as “All the News that’s Fit to Print”.

    Today, not only they can’t afford to get their news first hand (many Moscow Bureau Chiefs now live in and work from Washington), or keep employing experienced but expensive journalists (40% of journalists lost their jobs since 2007, and many are replaced by extremely inexperienced ‘kids’), they also shy away from arbitrating what’s ‘Fit to Print’. How else could a Donald Trump receive until recently such vast, free and mostly neutral or even positive media coverage? It’s obvious: it’s cheap, it’s entertaining, and it brings in money. When publishers replace “show me the truth” with “show me the money”, and when editors are unable as they once were to bring in enough money using truth, a Donald Trump is the outcome.

    The challenge, as we are witnessing everywhere and also before our very eyes here on the blog, is ‘how to conduct a public discourse in a time of crazy’. I wish I knew.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – maybe I did not make this so clear but I do not believe global warming is a hoax. I think there are 2 things involved here the problem of global warming and what we are trying to do about it. The second comes under the heading of ‘geo engineering’; and it is my belief we now have a ‘double problem’ The geo engineering seems to be very destructive so to my way of thinking job 1 would be to expose and throw light on that and hopefully stop it. Global warming is quite likely a problem but if we keep pretending that geo engineering is not happening we have no hope. It seems we have no hope anyway. We are in some vortex of illusion that is pretty hard to break out of imo. I wonder if that is ‘crooked thinking’ lol………….

    • Phil says:

      It’s true that there is so much poor, often erroneous, information available on the internet which can seem equivalent to reliable sources. People are unable or unwilling to see the difference. In democracies how are we going to be able make the right decisions on complex issues such as climate change and other things when people are so poorly informed, or mislead.
      I find the rise of Trump to be very startling and scary. So many of his statements are obvious lies, many of them huge ones. I have seen that fact checkers have found around 60% of what he says to be lies.. All politicians make some false or misleading statements but Trump”s performance is outrageous.
      What’s surprising is how he got to be the Republican nominee in the first place. That voters would prefer someone like that is astounding to me.
      Talking to people I do find quite a few believing in conspiracies of one kind or another, chem trails, the illuminati who are controlling the world, Hillary Clinton covering up a massive medical problem, all kinds of things. Vaccines. There’s also the cases of highly educated professionals who in other areas of thought can be somewhat irrational. Take, for example Ben Carson, the prominent neurosurgeon who was in the republican primaries and apparently does not believe in climate change or even evolution. A very educated person who you would think should be reliable, but maybe only in his narrow specialty.
      That’s how you can have anti- vaccine physicians, not reliable about that issue. It’s not within their specialty or they have conspiracy thoughts and feelings driving their conclusions, which are not based on strong evidence.

      • Patrick says:

        Phil – just why you would even believe that shooting day up day old infants up with toxic metals is a good idea is beyond me. It seem the illuminati have taken over your brain. We ain’t talking no conspiracy theory here neither…………..there is ‘loads of ‘evidence’ that is a very bad idea. Do you know any kids? Why do you think so many kids have ‘problems’ nowadays. This can be a matter of simple observation or do you know anything about the frequency of autism now versus even 20 years ago. I am actually amazed Phil you can be so blind now THAT’S scary. Forget Trump.

        • I take it you are talking from personal experience Yeah???? That could explain a huge amount of your current behavior.


          • Patrick says:

            I have no idea what you are trying to say and suspect neither do you! And no as far as ‘vaccine damage’ I count myself lucky just lucky an accident of place and time. But I feel sorry for the kids growing up now and nobody much to stand in their corner. Not you, not Phil not the primal institute not Janov…………….all just a bunch of empty yakkers lead as always by yourself. Fucking talkers and no caring that can be detected.

  188. Patrick says:

    Jack says to Guru “I’d be quite happy for you to post them on the blog” that to me is kind of the problem. No actual interest in ‘resolving’ anything or God forbid come to peace about anything just more histrionic self promotion and point scoring in PUBLIC, that seems to be important. Where emotions are paraded to score point of course you are a thespian (actor) and like to make ‘scenes’ but I sense NO interest in coming to an understanding or making peace.

    If Guru for whatever reasons of his own wants to go under his pseudonym that is his right. You have been picking at that scab for so long now and you refuse to let him be but picking at scabs seems to be a way of life for you you even found a ‘theory’ to justify it

    Guru – I honestly do not see the connection that you make with Gretchen’s role in shutting me down from posting pretty relevant information of the world we live in and your spat with the Jack man but whatever…………….that’s another discussion. Maybe one thing to focus on is if this ‘story’ is way exaggerated think about the ‘real victims’ in that case the Germans and their reputation for what seems forever and ever not to mention all the money they have handed out over the years and even continue to do so. That is called vilification and is not cool and notice the world of Islam is now being vilified by the same characters. It seems to be a characteristic blacken someone else’s name to the point they almost can’t recover and if someone comes to their defense like me then blacken HIS name……………..even the basis of the stories shares a similar characteristic torture in fact whether water boarding or crushing testicles, that’s how ‘true’ these stories are.

    • Patrick: Obviously the name thing going on with Jack and the controversy about WW2 Jews are two completely different topics. There is no direct connection except that Gretchen has said she placed a great value on the truth and I was trying to appeal to Gretchen’s value in sense of truth where Jack’s past actions are concerned.

      Jack was already spinning it to where he did something harmless when I know Gretchen spent hours and hours on the blog cleaning up after what Jack did on top of asking Jack numerous times to stop doing it.. Even other people stepped in and asked Jack to stop it.
      I actually felt bad for Gretchen and the crap she was going through cleaning up after Jack’s vengeful and passive-aggressive acts. This is why I am a bit surprised she hasn’t said anything about her side of the story considering all the work she put in it in the first place!

      I just find it so strange that the Primal Institute promotes a “cure” from Jack when I received trolling and other passive-aggressive acts from him (heckled for “crooked thinking” an ungodly number of times, etc).

      Not to worry, I can emotionally handle all this, but it leaves me asking if it’s prudent to have Jack be the Primal standard bearer? Why not make someone like Phil or Larry the crown prince of Primal, instead?

      It’s not like I am going to sit here and fret about this all day, but I did want to thoroughly answer Patrick’s concerns for its own sake.

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – I imagine I probably have more ‘crooked thinker’ hits than you! It might be close but I gotta think I won! What’s that old primal standby if someone is constantly accusing others and not just one 2 people here at least of something it very likely says something about the person doing it. Maybe deep down Jack ‘knows’ or ‘fears’ he is a ‘crooked thinker’ and can’t quite deal with that so he passes it along. I mean the concept I would say is valid but to use it as some kind of all purpose insult that’s not so sound imo. Or that’s the best crooked thinking me can come up with right now………….

  189. Last night I had a dream where I confronted my father about the way he treated us kids when we were young, something I never did whilst he was alive. It was perhaps precipitated by Guru’s hyperbole of me repeating his first name hundreds of times on the blog, AND Gretchen then having to spend endless hours cleaning it up. Further Patrick’s remark, after my having read a book and endeavoring there-on-in to be more straight and clear in my thinking.

    I had decided not to respond to either Guru or Patrick, but in view of the dream decided I would.


  190. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > I’d like to hear more about the contents of the dream, about what went on between you and your dad, instead of how it refers to Guru or Patrick.
    > what did your dad do and what was your reaction and your feeling?
    > I often have dreams like that and it always feels like a little piece of my personal puzzle is finding its place.
    > it can involve family but also past lovers etc.
    > or situations..
    > M