Page 4 comments ” Cure by Jack Waddington

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  1. Sylvia says:

    Any body here?

  2. Some of us are having a problem getting on the blog. This is the first time I was able to today! I have posted a new page, page 4 . Post your comments there now and I think it will help. Gretch

  3. Margaret says:


  4. jackwaddington says:

    I read an article on the front Page of the LA Times Sunday edition. The article is about a little boy that was locked in a closet for three years by his mother, who hardly fed him and sedated him, apparently so he would not cry or scream. His three sibling knew he was there, but the mother told the sibling not to tell anyone about it. Apparently, the step father did not know. The boy has since died and the mother has be charged with murder and put on $2,000,000 bail.

    I have barely slept all night thinking about this poor kid and I started by crying about it, but then that went away and became a throttled SCREAM. I have spent all night just wanting to SCREAM. The best I was able to do was to scream in my head. I kept going into convulsions with a kind of scream at the back of my throat. I did not want to disturb the neighbors or Jim.

    I have no words for all this just the feeling I need to Scream. I cant even put a word to the feeling … maybe it’s and an amalgam of feelings. I am certain that I was never shut into a closet when I was little; but have no connection to my child-hood what it is about. This whole thing is driving me nuts. I can’t get it out of my head. I have had little thought about the mother other than to say what happened to her to cause her to want to do that to her own baby?

    Even now that I am awake I still feel the need to scream. The poor, poor, poor kid. I sort of identify with him in a very strange way. I wished I’d never read it Geeze …. what are we humans about. I feel I will never get over it.


    • Larry says:

      I hope you will be able to scream when you need to Jack.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Larry: Yes; Whatever is behind all this I sure hope I get the opportunity to scream it all out. Thanks for the note.


    • Phil says:

      There are so many terrible things going on in the world that we can’t do anything about.
      I hope that the feeling will come out so you can get some relief from it

      • jackwaddington says:

        Phil: You are so right. there are times when I just wish I could get away from it all. Not via death … but somewhere like I had in Ibiza where I had little access to news, since I was so stupid with Spanish.


    • Since it is affecting you so much why don’t you help chip in on the funeral expenses for the boy, Jack?

      The boy does have several siblings, from what I read. Maybe you can donate a sizable sum towards their needs now that the mother is gone?

  5. barb cothran says:

    i’m a self-primaller and things like this happen 2 me, 2. i’ll feel intense flgs. about something I KNOW never happened 2 ME. what it often turns out 2b, is that the essential flg. – the “flavor” of the terrible thing I heard about, or read about, and it can even be fictional – DOES resonate with my Pain, even tho the exact circumstances didn’t happen 2 me, and might even just be fictional. for many years I would push away things like this, since they “weren’t real” 4 me. but I’ve learned 2 embrace any and all myself which arise from being triggered deeply, since, sooner or later I DO find out why I got SO triggered by something “having nothing 2do w/my Pain”. years later, sometimes, i’ll even find that similar things as in a news story DID happen 2 me, but I had no access at that point in therapy, to these particular flgs. my own real childhood experiences would have a similarity in “tone” 2 the news story, but not be the SAME EVENTS as the story. in this case, e.g., u obviously didn’t end up dead like the boy on the news, yet u may’ve been neglected and abandoned and isolated very intensely, say, emotionally and spiritually, similar 2 the child in the news, but may not have reached this point in your therapy yet.

    also maybe you’re flg.compassion 4 this boy, and your heart is open enough NOW, after so much therapy, 2 feel such intense compassion, that it’s a new and unsettling flg. 4u. I remember when I was a very little girl, how overwhelmingly i’d sometimes feel for stray animals, fictional sick, suffering people on tv dramas, etc., but was harshly ordered 2 harden my heart towards any flgs. like this by my cold, unflg. parents, who saw soft-heartedness as a huge weakness, and also as a possible step in the “wrong” direction – toward my own storehouse of love and compassion 4 myself, which they were constantly forcing me 2 turn away from so their abuse wouldn’t be exposed.

    so jack, i’m all ears as 2 whether this is helpful 2u at all.

    barb cothran

    • jackwaddington says:

      Barb: The nearest to maybe understanding what was going on with me is perhaps your suggestion, I am just very open to these sort of things … similar to what you suggested about animals for you.

      I am prepared to just let it all stay with me and see where it all goes. So thanks Barb for your response and in that sense it did help.


  6. Larry says:


  7. jackwaddington says:

    I got the blog number 4 on my bookmark, but I seem not to be getting emails about all the new posts. Ah Well!!!!

    Still reeling from it all. I don’t know why, but I get a weird sense of what it must have like for the poor kid … day in and day out. Three fucking years. I wouldn’t be able to survive that now as an adult. GEEZE. Now I need to cry.


    • Well it certainly sounds as though this whole story affected you quite deeply, Jack.

      Here, let me help you out by repeating my original questions since you said you were having email troubles and not receiving all the posts.

      Why don’t you help chip in on the funeral expenses for the boy, Jack? I’m sure the little boy’s siblings would appreciate the enormous gesture of deep affectation on your part.

      Or, how about a nice donation to the boy’s siblings themselves now that they are hard-pressed to have a caretaker since their mother is gone? If the boy was here I’m sure he would see how extraordinarily affected you were by his plight if you are willing to help his siblings financially.

      • Erron says:

        Guru, leaving aside the obvious benefit to the family, how’s that going to help Jack? Can we buy off our feelings? I dunno, maybe it might help Jack explore his reaction, but it just sounds like running around ‘doing something’ rather than exploring the feelings it’s brought up.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Erron: That’s quite right … all I can do is have my reactions to it all. Other than that, I can stay with the feeling/s and see where it all takes me. Anything else I would consider and act-out to sublimate the feeling/s.

          I have cried about it for about 20 minutes, but to suggest that it has gone away and I am getting releif. No!!! that’s not the way I have learned to deal with it. I am not colvusing about it for the moment; but if that comes up again, I will go through it, as best I can express it. There is a part of my childhood where I screamed that I was dying. The reliving of that event in my 30’s was so utterly devastating.

          It’s my feeling/s and I will go through with them best I know how. The poor kid is now out of it. What remains is what it is all doing to me.

          Thanks for the support Erron.


        • LOL, keep those tear ducts wide open and those purse strings tightly closed, haha. Yeah, yeah..

          • Patrick says:

            ……………and don’t forget all the ‘free therapy’……..

          • Phil says:

            What’s up with your reaction to this? Something to do with how you feel about Jack?

            • Phil: I have conferred privately with others on the matter and some extremely wise counsel was given to me from said parties. I briefly wavered from my Ultimate Superstar Guru-dom and I must stand down immediately for the good of everyone.

              Jack: Go ahead and say anything you wish; I will back away as much as I can now.

            • Margaret says:

              I was gonna ask Guru the same question.
              I hate this indirect sniping thing.
              did not hear anything when Patrick ran into this probably homeless Irish guy and did not even want to ask him whether he was homeless out of fear to have to give some support.
              the good thing was Patrick was straight forward about it, but on the other hand it did strike me from someone that can be criticizing people about their so called indifference and for so called putting their heads in the sand.
              I guess I am sick and tired of the sneering and meanness that just keeps going on endlessly while there is no directness whatsoever about the real underlying emotions.
              it just feels like soiling the place over and over, leaving little room for people that really have something to tell.
              guess it also plays it does trigger the pain that went around in my family, I always felt I needed to prevent it from happening, if possible, as it hurt me at the same time.
              it feels so unnecessarily cruel and ugly as well.

  8. Otto Codingian says:

    Jack, I cant read that stuff. I need to drink my morning coffee at work to get going,and look at yahoo news, thank got they have a few articles about the models and such interspersed with the horror stories. I was an attic boy for certain periods in my childhood, but those were only temporary and i lived to tell about it. go to your room! one prominent therapist that i know says he does not even read the news.

    • Phil says:

      I read the news but pick and choose what I will look at. When I see a very disturbing headline I can avoid that story. I can’t stand TV news as there’s no choices involved on the part of the viewer.

  9. Otto Codingian says:

    dad and daughter, how cute. “Me Singing ‘Taxman’ By The Beatles With My Dad! (Cover By Amy Slattery”.

  10. Otto Codingian says:

    i dont want to make any suggestions on getting to feelings. but there are plenty of screams and nighttime bedroom terrors in Poltergeist. but not that shit Halloween krueger crap.

  11. Otto Codingian says:

    and at the end of poltergeist, dad pushes the tv out of their motel room escape. that’s what i should be screaming about. being raised by a tv half the time of my childhood. big fat lifeless me.

  12. Otto Codingian says:

    although my friend got me interested in the wolfman, frankenstein, and dracula, when i was in the 5th grade. i guess i treasure those movies, watched them on tv, made the models with glue and paint, listening to beatles music. but still very very lonely. lonelier than imaginable. not in a closet, not in an attic, just in our dining room, but deadly lonely anyways. all alone a lot of the time. it was good to have my friend, we did some fun stuff together.

  13. Patrick says:

    Margaret – I have ‘helped’ out quite a few people over the years but I have learned and seen that it usually does not make much difference in the long or even short run. Also I am not doing so great myself these days at least the days are gone when I could actually ‘afford’ to do such things. And actually it always IS hard for me not to help that is why not asking the guy is a form of self protection in that if I really know his situation it will tug at my conscience. So you are right I suppose if I don’t ‘really know’;I can shield myself from my conscience if I really do know it’s like then what is my excuse. It’s a desperate world out there in many ways and I have learned I can’t save everyone I better be sure I can save myself. I don’t like being this way but it an example of how far we have come from ‘tribal living’ where everyone would sort of care about everyone else. We are now mostly all ‘rootless and ruthless cosmopolitans’ which is one reason I relate to this morris guy so much most of the time that is exactly what he talks about

    • barb cothran says:

      this is just MY flg. of course, but I’ve been struggling emotionally forever about “giving of myself” more, like 2worthy causes etc. lately I’ve realized that THE WAY I FEEL when I feel like I “should” be “doing more”, is always a combination of emptiness and guilt. placed there by my mother, who insisted I perform as her 2nd-in-command in her 24/7 battle against my father, or else i was more or less of no “use” 2 her. so, nowadays, when I do give 2 charity, help people out, etc., I do it out of a flg. that I don’t deserve 2 live/feel ok abt. myself, unless i’m “giving”, or “helping others” all the time. in reality, i’m in so much Pain that it’s all I can do 2 take care of myself. so, if your flgs. that u “should help” come from an uncomfortable, disconnected place inside u, u might have some unaddressed Pain there.

      • Patrick says:

        sounds like standard ‘primal doctrine’……….which does not make it the last word on anything. It has it;’s uses but to treat it as some kind of ‘last word’ well to me look at the ‘results’ of that usually a lot of small minded selfishness just my take…………

      • Leslie says:

        Hi Barb. Welcome to the blog. Sorry about the resident troll Patrick.
        It is both embarrassing and infuriating to have to withstand his comments.
        I appreciate what you wrote and see many people running around non-stop for others – when it is them themselves who really need the help.

  14. Margaret says:

    that is an honest reply, and I can relate to most of what you say, don’t know about that Morris guy but well, that is another matter than the rest you said.
    I agree with one of our problems being we might be more naturally evolved to living in smaller groups, in which there was still a loose rule of reciprocity though. one individual that would consistently be a freerider on other people’s efforts would end up being left out, a healthy way of avoiding the selfcentered to take over, on an evolutionary scale, at least, that is the theory but it does make sense, also on a smaller scale.
    all we can do in having to cope living on this overly populated world, I guess, is forming our own circle on one hand, and chosing some general efforts we can support if we want to , like what we have, doctors without frontiers, who help anywhere where medical car is needed, or say Greenpeace or whatever one chooses to care about.
    and to be decent to whoever we meet, unless we need to set boundaries.
    I am sorry to hear your situation is not as good as it was, hope you find ways to take good care of yourself.
    altough living in a more anonymous world, there still are plenty of nice people around when one reaches out.
    I am faced with that issue a lot of the time, and am glad to say so far I could avoid becoming a bitter person, which is always a danger when having to face hardships and regular feelings of isolation and loneliness.
    it is tempting to project on others, but it is better to remain vulnerable and open and enjoy what is still around and can be unexpectedly nice at times.
    look for the silver lining as Chet Baker sings..

  15. jackwaddington says:

    Last night I slept a lot better; BUT from time to time I did wake up and what was uppermost on my mind was the horror of having to live for 3 whole years in a closet, (day in … day out, perhaps even minute by minute), perhaps never seeing daylight, being underfed, having to sleep on a hard tile floor; no-where to defecate or urinate except either in his pants or in the corner of the closet. What must have gone through that little mind????? ……. “what did I do wrong”????? Until finally the twisting and convoluting of his little brain must have given him no sense of anything, and his body just deteriorated until he finally just gave out and died. It all still reverberates within me.

    I cry as I write all this …. yet I am not able to get it out of my mind. That is what I really mean when I say “I identify with him”. I know, as Erron stated, there is no buying oneself out of it and I sure have no intention of drugging myself out of it. I will, as best I can, go with my feeling/s untill I can no longer or, no need to express them any more.

    Am I The only one so affected???? I find that hard to beleive … but then who knows?? I sure am aware that somewhere in my history there is a reason, and maybe purpose to it all … but I’m not there yet. This story goes right through my very being.

    To take it to another level, for me is to suggest that “Good” & “Evil” are a ‘human construct’ (an invetion in our neurotic being), and not some factor out three, in the ether. On my ‘hobby horse’ again: The biggest factor contributing to all that is:- the statement “Money is the root of ALL evil”, yet it seems most feel the necesity to live with this ‘Evil’. I don’t buy into that. Enough for now

    Where all this lies in my very own history I am still not totally sure, but it’s got to be there … somewhee


    • Sylvia says:

      Jack, I saw a story a while back on tv about a young girl who had been chained up in a room and freed by a policeman who recounted how awful it was. A nice family adopted her and she is a teen today, but still very childlike and dependent like a 3 or 4 yr. old. What a comparison between the two families. The mother who took out her evil, always having a choice how to treat her daughter, but growing hate instead of love like the adoptive parents.
      Barb, welcome to the blog, I too follow the road of feelings traveled by these feeling people here. I see you have run the gauntlet of anti-primal discourse; you are one of us now. You have been duly initiated.

    • Erron says:


      I remember reading The Whole Earth Catalog (remember that :-)) back in the late 70s, before I’d entered therapy for the first time. They had little anecdotes on each page, and one of them was about a small boy being pushed into the Auschwitz gas showers with his mother. The story was related later by one of the (reluctant) German guards. The little boy said “Mother, it’s so dark in here, and I’ve been so good”. Reading that ruined my entire week, and it has haunted me right up to the present day.

      With many of these stories, I don’t think it’s necessarily resonant with any “major primal scene”, as much as it just reflects the total sadness and hurt of our entire childhood in a single, compacted/condensed image. It’s somehow all in there, and really gets to us. The whole kit and caboodle, tight and crystal as diamond. (Forgive the hyperbole, I often experiment with language, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t).

      For me, I was a good little boy but I still got hit, at school and at home. I can’t tell what it is for you, but what I got from your story is a little child, defenceless and innocent, being locked inside a horrible life until it dies. You can almost extrapolate that story to how so many of us live locked inside a life of unmet needs until we finally give out.

      Thanks for sharing, and good luck with it.


    • Larry says:

      If I stop to read and think about it, what the little guy went through is just too horrendous to contemplate for more than a second. At the moment though I am too busy treading water to keep from feeling overwhelmed by my own life and past. I feel too fragile, too dumbstruck, almost paralysed by the void that I see in mine and what seems like the impossibility of finding my way out of it. Right now I don’t want to know about his. There are other times though when the news has a deep troubling effect on me for a while, until the cause of the feelings transfers from outside me (safer) to inner reality (more difficult to accept).

  16. Margaret says:

    I find it the simplest to just give my bank the instruction to transfer monthly some money to what I see as worthwhile causes.
    that is merely a choice, of course there is a feeling involved in everything in our life, in this case one of my motivations is the idea that in other circumstances it might be me needing medical care in a disastrous situation, and I’d be very glad if someone did help to provide it.
    we are mostly fairly wealthy and sharing feels the least we can do.
    also I already wonder about what to do with my savings if I would die, who to make a will for, which cause, which movement or charity, as I do not feel like giving it to people who do not need it as they already have enough money.

    • barb cothran says:

      thank u so much Sylvia! I needed someone 2 “legitimize” me on this blog. partly cuz of a mountain of old flgs., and partly in what feels like a very real way. just being able 2 distinguish 1 from the other feels so great.

      I hate the sniping i’m seeing on here. time 4 some people 2 give up sarcasm as an act-out, i’d say. I get SO MUCH every time I own anything that I know is “mine”, such as bitter, angry words meant only 2 hurt someone (like I was hurt).

      boy this is a tough process, but definitely the only 1 worth the work and pain.

      I think all of us on here can FEEL where something is coming from, inside us. whether it’s harsh, cruel words we want 2 say 2 someone, or a flg. of guilt rather than love impelling us 2 give 2 causes. it’s fine 2 give 2 a cause even from a hollow place inside, btw, imo..

      • Sylvia says:

        Yeah Barb, I always found being honest with myself was the hard part–to look at myself. It’s good that we are trying to be better, more human people here.

      • Phil says:

        Welcome to the blog. I think you’re right that this is a tough process and that it’s worth the work and ;pain.

  17. Margaret says:

    can you see you have no information whatsoever to base yourself on to judge primal people are only self centered and not able to give?
    can’t you see how your opinion is purely coloured by your emotion and resentments?
    this is such a shame and you are smart enough to see it if you want to.
    so why cling to it?
    that doctrine only exists in your mind, and yes, possibly some patients might be stuck in some misinterpretations, but I can assure you they form a minority and at some point it usually sorts itself out as they are called upon it automatically.
    so no, I do not agree at all with that statement of yours, it is completely unfounded.

  18. Sylvia says:

    You all watch out for the Goblins tonite. Boo! I always had fun trick or treating because we got free candy. I don’t know why that was such a big deal because the stores had plenty we could probably buy at any time. Maybe it had to do with the actual asking of something and knowing it would be freely given. Don’t know if other countries had this sort of thing. Only children would see the excitement of dressing in costumes and going door-to-door asking for candy.

    • Phil says:

      As a kid, Halloween was one of my favorite holidays. Just a whole lot of fun besides getting candy.
      I notice that when ever something is free people come running, whether they need it or not. For example at different places I’ve worked when free food was on offer for some reason, loads of people would show up, even when it wasn’t meant for them. Free stuff gets people excited.
      Same thing when a new fast food restaurant opens up and offers free hamburgers.

      • Sylvia says:

        I know, right? And advertisers use that as bait to sell their products as if we are slaves and can’t resist something free: “we’ll throw in a free tote bag to sweetin the deal.” Just gotta have that tote bag.

        • Sylvia said: “Maybe (kids trick-or-treating) had to do with the actual asking of something and knowing it would be freely given.”

          Do children who are guided into becoming persistent and effective Halloween trick-or-treaters grow to become adults who have an easier time asking for a raise at their jobs and/or perform better at job interviews?

  19. Phil says:

    A Cairo, Egypt book store has a scream room. A sound proof room for customers to let out their anger:

    I wonder if they have “The Primal Scream” for sale.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Phil: Do I need to go all the way to Cairo to let out that pending scream. I hope not. BUT the notion of letting out the scream looks as if it might eventually become acceptable.


  20. Patrick says:


  21. Patrick says:


  22. Margaret says:

    the most irritating of all of this is we all are pretty sure you never really looked for what evidence there exists that would confirm the existence of gas chambers used for killing in those days.
    it shows you have another agenda.
    it is really ironic you accuse Gretchen of fanaticism, talk about projection, ha…

    this is getting pretty annoying and I’d continue in this way if you really want to be banned completely I suppose, it must be tiresome to have to delete half of what you write as it is just more provocation.
    I am sure Gretchen must have better things to do.

  23. Patrick says:

    Margaret you are such a kiss ass as are most of the people here. It must be SO ‘irritating’ for poor poor Gretchen to HAVE to go to the trouble to delete my comments have you thought about how ‘irritating’ all that is for ME. I go to the trouble and write what I really believe/feel and it just gets trashed…………………would you or anyone else come to that find that ‘irritating’. But not a squek or a squak of protest nothing from all these warriors of ‘being heard’. Except maybe keep it all to like 50 years ago or something but being’heard’ now not important move along pay no attention to the idiot with the scissors and who is prepared to use it with basically no provocation.

    And Margaret since you bring it up even among Orthodox holocaust historians it is now ACCEPTED there were no ‘gas showers’. That was iteration no ! of the ‘story’ but was found to be physically impossible! The plumbing for that to happen was simply not there not to mention how it could not possibly work in terms of safety etc. So the ‘story’ changed now as I understand it it says it was done by throwing Zyklon B pellets in through holes in the roof. This has almost as many problems which I will not go into as it will only get deleted anyway. So my point this time was a ‘narrow’ one it was ‘gas showers’ have gone the way of the do do bird. But it ‘offends’ Gretchen but I realize it seems Gretchen is a true ‘know nothing’ on this subject she just takes it all on Faith and she does not even know what the Faith says. If she wants to enforce this ‘story’ she might at least find out what are it’s ‘doctrines’ I was hoping (is that too much) that Daniel at least might support me on this narrow aspect of the ‘gas showers’ he does at least take the trouble to find out a bit what he is talking about and seems to have read and thought about it a bit at least or as much as his ‘Faith” kind of allows him. We’ll see but I am not holding my breath I suppose I could say. And Margaret since you seem to be into all kinds of ‘research’ why don’t YOU find out about ‘gas showers’ and stop just joining with the gang and crapping on me.Stop being such a kiss ass it’s such a little group of ‘agreeres’ here led as always by Leslie the lead actor always in this silly drama. If I say something strikes me as ‘primal doctrine’ so what I thought primal was not meant to have a ‘doctrine’ and if I feel someone is just repeating a doctrine about not helping others it is just my FEELING ok …………… complicated is that it strikes me that way. Not to say there is not a lot of truth in the idea we help others because we cannot help ourselves, yes there is a lot of truth in that but is that some kind of ‘last word’ on the matter NO I don’t think so at all. I would even say it more reflects the way we live or have to live in the modern alienated kind of societies we know. It’s all most of us know but there ARE others but we are usually too busy bombing those to actually know or notice that. I find it tiring that this kind of ‘wisdom’ is taken as some kind of ‘last word’ and Leslie can whisper all she likes ine background it’s what I truly believe

    • jackwaddington says:

      Quote:- ” I go to the trouble and write what I really believe/feel and it just gets trashed…………………would you or anyone else come to that find that ‘irritating’. ”
      Question:- Why do you ‘indeed’ go to all that kind of trouble?????? You are either stupid to ‘go to that kind of trouble … ON THIS BLOG, OR you are intent on something that seems to elude the rest of us!!!!!!

      Another quote:- ” I find it tiring that this kind of ‘wisdom’ is taken as some kind of ‘last word’ ”
      If indeed it is so triring for you why don’t you go to bed, sleep and rest?
      I suggest you are somewhat out of sorts ON THIS BLOG.

      Another question:- which I doubt you’ll answer … Why all this time and effort on a blog where you are obviously not considered feeling-full OR, sensative to anyone on this blog AND perhaps by some, as losing it all, and going “off your rocker”??????


    • Erron says:

      Jesus Christ, I apologise for even mentioning a subject that was obviously going to press buttons for someone like you. I was just recounting a story that had a great effect on me. I couldn’t give a flying fuck if the story was true, it was the FEELING I was relating, and relating to. That’s a distinction you will never seem to get, Patrick; all the work you supposedly did in primal was evidently wasted. Just what the hell DID you do while you were there?

      FYI, my understanding of the gas showers was that the gas was never delivered through the shower heads, but by other means. The showers were just set up to get the Jews to enter with minimum fuss and suspicion. Factual? Who knows. I’ll leave all the bickering and arguing to those who evidently latch onto issues like this in a lifelong, full flight from their own feelings. Like your oft-quoted mates, and you.

      Once again, I was replying to Jack, and empathising with him on the subject of how a story about someone we’ve never met can really resonate with us. It was stupid of me in retrospect, Patrick, given your history on this blog. I’ll be more careful in future.

      Kiss-Arse apologies to Gretchen and those who have once more had their stomachs turned by this kind of attack.

  24. Patrick says:

    If I might say another word about ‘gassing’ I am actually concerned with this and am doing my very best to find out are we being ‘gassed’ or ‘sprayed’ and it is not so easy to find out or come to any ‘truth’. But and I thought of this last night this is HARD this thing about ‘gas showers’ at Auchwitz is EASY but too ‘hard’ for some. Just a little thought and reading would put it to bed but NO Gretchen is such a lazy irresponsible functioneer she just can’t be bothered too lazy and careless for any even basic knowledge. And funnily enough I think there is a connection between the 2 what I mean is if we are so ‘lazy’ and ‘sloppy’ about the truth or not of spraying 70 years ago this is a ‘habit’ we have to this day. An almost total unconcern’ with ‘truth’ as in is this happening or NOT? No we go with oh I only concern myself with how it makes me feel. Again there is validity to this but to make this some kind of ‘last word’ well we have and we have the world to see the results now. It seems we ARE being ‘sprayed’ from the air all the time and nobody even cares. What a crazy world and ‘official primal’ is no help at all actually more of a hindrance and once again that is how I see things.

  25. Patrick says:

    Margaret this might be something for you to think about since you like all this ‘research’. As Jack would say try to step out of your box a bit if you can…………….you are playing it too easy there and find cheap and easy agreement I don’t think that is satisfying on any level………and Gretchen a heads up I don’t believe the ‘holocaust’ is mentioned here at all so at least before you delete it you might watch it. Or don’t watch it but to reassure you there is no ‘verboten’ ideas here at least I don’t think so though maybe there is some ‘racism’ or maybe a bit of ‘homophobia’ and let’s see what else no ‘anti Semitic’ or at least I don’t think so though you can make your own connections as far as that goes. I know he is not in favor of bombing tribes is that a bit ‘anti semitic’ well you can and do decide these kinds of things

    • Sylvia says:

      Don’t know much about this guy but he seems to like tribal life. Doesn’t bother him about the polygamy and incest. Yeah, and he says the missing links between the monkeys and humans are some kind of alien. He is entertaining, but wouldn’t want to live in his tribe.

  26. Margaret says:

    I seem to have put my finger on a sore spot when I said you did never do any research on the evidence that confirmed the existence of gas chambers.
    you did mention this source before which claims they were not possible.
    that is no answer to what I said.
    but please do not use this as another excuse to repeat the same stuff all over and over.
    one thing I do believe to be true in all you said is that the world you live in is indeed a crazy world.
    even crazier than it actually is, and that is very crazy…

  27. Margaret says:

    and by the way, always responding with insults to whatever even remotely feels like disagreement seems only a sign of immaturity , or lack of proper arguments.

  28. Phil says:

    An alternative WordPress “Holocaust Blog” might be called for I think. This is where all of Patrick”s posts could be diverted so we wouldn’t have to see them. I mean ALL of his posts, because he always keeps coming right back to that very same issue. Anyone with an interest could subscribe to that blog or go there to receive Patrick’s views about the Holocaust,

  29. barb says:

    Patrick – EXACTLY how the unfortunate victims were poisoned doesn’t seem 2 belong on this board. so y do u keep posting about it here? just wondering if this has 2 do w/therapy in any way? did u lose loved 1’s in the holocaust?

  30. Margaret says:

    I just saw a documentary about how a police and undercover action dealt with an organization on the Philippines that provided young orphan children to pedophiles.
    it was so shocking, one time you could hear the crying of a young girl just having been raped, I really cannot understand how some men can want to do this, to destroy or deeply damage these young kids, for no other reason than their sick pleasure. very sick, it is hard to even conceive.
    one guy was finally caught, an american helicopter pilot who repeatedly did stuff like that.
    how can they not be so shocked after having done something like that that they could not ever do it again, how can it be the opposite, how can someone be that sick and cruel?
    maybe people that sick are beyond rescue and should be put to sleep forever, I don’t know, it is just so hard to grasp.
    I am not for death penalty but well, someone like that should never ever even get any opportunity at all anymore, and sadly enough they get back out on the streets again some day. without having changed most probably.
    very sick people do exist, and it even becomes just one more commercial undertaking for others.
    so sad and sickening.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: I utterly agree; for anyone to want to rape anyone and in particular a young child is so, so egregious as to boggle the mind. The problem is that rape is not real sex, but merely a means of masrturbating using someone eles’ body. For these guys to be so, so insentative to the screams and cries of a young child is a demonstation of just how ‘fucked-up’ most of started out in life. It manefests itself to each of us in it very own distinct way. I know all about sex addiction … been there, done that … but it never occurred to me to anything agains anyones’s will or, recipricating desire.

      The only question I would like to ask is what went on for these guys in their own early childhoods. It must have been horrendous. That is not to give them any excuse … mearly a glimps into what might drive it.

      On the other front about my re-action to the boy locked up in a closet for 3 years. I’ve cried and cried about it … the screams for now elude me. It’s all there, of that I am ceratin. BUT not connected to it yet. I did sleep a little better last night, but woke several times in the night and immediatly it all went through my mind again. Again what must have driven that mother to do that to her own baby???? It’s all testament to just how pervasive and devatating what “neurosis” is. Sadly, I don’t see humans catching on any time soon; that further saddens me.


    • Erron says:

      Hear, Hear, Margaret!

  31. Margaret says:

    you should not be the one having to watch what you write on here.

  32. Margaret says:

    yesterday I went with my sister and brother in law to visit my mom.
    when we opened the door to her room, we heard two voices singing loud. mom and one of the nurses were both sitting on the bed, backs leaning against the wall, both singing a funny Dutch song with audible fun, not holding back, haha, it sounded like a real party!
    the nurse told us she really likes my mom, which was pretty obvious, smiley.
    mom was very energetic all afternoon, had a few dizzy spells but just let them happen and went on chatting away and enjoying her icecream in the cafeteria.
    people say how great she looks, and she is gaining several pounds, and really comes across as happy most of the time.
    yesterday we ran into one of her former best friends, now a lady of 90 who just came to live there as well with her friend, who is 97 but still quite good.
    mom starts to get surrounded by more and more people she knows, or knew, as her memory always needs to be freshened up by those people as to who they are.
    in two weeks there will be a party for everyone who has their birthday in november, like my mom, and two family members can join the party.
    I will go with my (half)sister as she takes more pleasure in those kind of parties, and in dancing with my mom than my brother would do, so he will come on some other day and we can celebrate again then.
    there is stil some pain in watching her grow older and lose some capacities, but also great relief in seeing how well she is doing now and how cheerful she is.
    she seems to be conquering more and more hearts of her caretakers, which is reassuring.
    starting to feel a bit like crying..

    • Erron says:

      Margaret, my wife and I are going through the early stages of getting her mother into an assisted care situation. So I have some understanding of what you are going through. It’s a big wrench for someone to leave the family home and go into one of these institutions. I’m certainly not looking forward to the possibility myself. At least your mum seems to be settling in, and to have friends and staff around her who genuinely care. That is a really good result 🙂


  33. Margaret says:

    just did a bit of crying.
    the thing is my mom keeps asking me things like do I have enough friends, and telling me I should look for a boyfriend.
    I usually answer her in a reassuring way, while maybe I should tell her I am scared to remain more and more alone while getting older.
    but it is hard to make myself so vulnerable, with her, as her responses can be painful sometimes, off the mark, or more about her than about me.
    but at the same time I crave being real with her, and maybe I should take the risk, even if I might break down and cry.
    I can’t remember when I allowed myself to cry around her, except 21 years ago when my dad died.
    I did tell her I could always use some more friends, and also that some days are better than others, but I will keep trying to be more myself with her, as she seems to be reaching out and truely interested.
    she will always be childlike, but also has a very caring side.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: I am so happy for you, how things are going with your mother. Sure it’s hard to see ones parent getting old knowing there time is nearing an end. I was lucky, in-so-far as I was living outside the country as she grew older and began having heart attacks. I did go home to see her, as promised, and we both knew on my leaving that was our good-bye to one another. It was a sort of glorious surrender for both of us.

      There is this notion out there “growing old gracefully” I never did figure out just what that really was. Just part of life … I suppose. My way is, as it seems also your, is to cry about it. The Primal Way as I see it. Take great care Margaret … and there’s still time to find a partner (lover). Get out there … he’s around, somewhere. 🙂 .


  34. Margaret says:

    today on the phone with my mom, she asked me again about my friends and posssible boyfriend.
    this time I was more real with her, more honest, and it felt much better.
    the conversation of course has its limitations as she can only handle so much input, but it was a true conversation.
    it is so simple really, just being truthful and honest and of course more vulnerable, it simplifies life so much, will try to do so even more with everyone.
    no pretending to be cheerful when I am not,just being ok with how I truely am and am feeling.
    if it is sad some of the time, that is how it is, it will be real at least.
    in the long run easier for me and also easier for those around me, once they tune in.
    it is merely me having to let them in I guess.
    this blog can be so useful just to reflect in an honest way, it helps me a lot to get into things.

    • Leslie says:

      Great to read how well your family decisions for/with your Mom are working out Margaret.
      So nice that you no longer have to worry so much about her well-being – sharing it with a good home and caring staff makes such a difference.
      Changing it up and being more honest for yourself with your mom sounds good too.
      Good wishes to you and your kitties.
      ox L

  35. jackwaddington says:

    I am crying much less about that poor, poor boy locked in the closet for 3 years BUT it’s still there lingering. Every time I think about it it goes right through me.
    Meantime, something is happening to me, and as of now I’m not quite sure what, but I have a lot more energy, and colors seem to be that more vivid. Just like there were in that first Primal I ever had, all those years ago.

    Things are going very, very well with my Jimbo and I, so much careing.

    Today with clear blue skies and sunshine. I love it

    Had my 84th birthday during October and a freind of mine took me out for dinner and we went shopping beforehand and he bought me some new levi jeans. When he went to pay for them I was at his side and was doing my usussal chat and mentioned this was a bithday present from my freind. The guy at the pay desk asked me my age and was so surprised when I told him I was now 84. He said:- “Geeze man, I hope I’m as fiesty as you, if and when I get to your age. I really liked that; it was the compliment of the year for me. So!!!! a lot to be happy about.


    P.S. Don’t need any belated birthday wishes, cos I know most of you feel that way anyway.


  36. Margaret says:

    thanks Jack, xx M

  37. Otto Codingian says:

    i dont watch a lot of heart-warming movies anymore but this one is making me tear up. the lucky ones.

  38. Otto Codingian says:

    very human. just likeable people.

  39. Leslie says:

    No whispers about you on my part Patrick.
    I shout loud and clear that you are a very sick man – who occupies his time with constant cruel, ignorant rages.
    I am sure that no one has nor will ever give you the care, patience, kindness and empathy that Gretchen did for so long. Perhaps that unfamiliar and now again distant nurturing is why you are so driven to attack…
    Trying to pull us all down to your pit of misery appears to be your way. Touting the benefits of a natural life while you continue to exist in LA – trying to come off as smart while you idolize idiots – pretending you are courageous when you leak fear continually, and finally – needing desperately to belong when you can only repel. No question you endure a life of hell.

  40. Patrick is in a prime demographic zone for suicide in terms of age and race. Throw in some of the complaints he has made about past suicides committed by Primallers along with all the hostility from the vast majority of blog participants wanting to banish him and I start to grow very concerned Patrick could eventually do something drastic as well.

    Man, I would feel like shit if I was one of folks who like to flog Patrick all the time and he ended up committing suicide as a result.

    I know from experience having multiple people pile their hostility onto me simultaneously can be an intensely demoralizing experience which, if not checked by the recipient’s sheer strength of will or psychological fortitude, could lead to something tragic nobody wants.

    • Erron says:

      Sounds like emotional blackmail, to me. “Let me be an arsehole or you’ll regret it!”

      Current events can be a catalyst, I suppose, but I don’t believe people suicide because of what happens now; it’s buried in their past. People on this blog have done everything they can to help Patrick, but he continues in his destructive manner. No one has been ‘flogging’ him all the time, as you suggest, just reacting in understandable ways to his attacks. It is the stance of the coward and the bully, to try to silence people who are only defending themselves.

      We can feel our pain, or run from it. I’m fine with people doing either, as long as their way of running from pain doesn’t involve attacking others in a constant stream of mean viciousness. I will feel sorry for Patrick, and those he leaves behind, if he kills himself. I will not feel guilty.

      “I know from experience having multiple people pile their hostility onto me simultaneously can be an intensely demoralizing experience which, if not checked by the recipient’s sheer strength of will or psychological fortitude, could lead to something tragic nobody wants.”

      – then don’t poke the bear! Treat people with respect and decency, and they will reciprocate. We are here to support and help each other (I hope).


      • Erron: Just as you say I might be presenting a scenario of emotional blackmail, I must say you seem to display an aura of intimidation by warning me not to poke a bear by challenging anyone. I only “poke” someone when I truly know it is justified in light of past bad behavior. Being a pushover is not a solution, either.

        • Erron says:

          “Just as you say I might be presenting a scenario of emotional blackmail”

          – No, I’m not saying you might be presenting, I’m saying you are actually doing emotional blackmail.

          “I must say you seem to display an aura of intimidation by warning me not to poke a bear by challenging anyone.”

          – Again with the passive agressive bullshit. ‘don’t disagree with me or I’ll feel bad’. So, feel fucking bad. You get back what you give out, is what I’m telling you. Law of the Universe 😉

          “Being a pushover is not a solution, either.”

          – That is exactly what I am saying, what part of my post are you struggling with? Oh, I get it: all of it.

          • Erron: Are you TRYING to pick a fight here or what? I was expressing my sincere concerns about what Patrick might do and you’ve now twisted it into my being a bad guy.

            I’ve SEEN suicides completely out of the blue with no clue it was going to happen. People I’ve personally known well, and the blog dynamics left me sincerely concerned with the Patrick situation and I wanted MATURE feedback from a larger crowd as to whether my concerns had validity.

            This “emotional blackmail” term you used is completely wrong, not to mention hugely passive/aggressive on YOUR part. Totally ridiculous and histrionic nonsense. If you guys WANT to continue going after Patrick I won’t stop you, so don’t give out such misleading and manipulative bullshit about “emotional blackmail” because it’s just not true.

            • Jeezus, this “emotional blackmail” accusation is really fucked up and it doesn’t even pass the logical smell test.

              If I truly wanted to emotionally blackmail the group into leaving Patrick alone, I would have publicly shared my suicide concerns and then ASK Patrick to PRIVATELY tell me whether he had suicidal ideations. This way I could keep the crowd on enotional pins and needles wondering whether Patrick is truly hanging on the precipice without any of the blog posters ever knowing for sure whether they should truly leave him alone.

              Instead, I gave Patrick the opportunity to PUBLICLY tell everyone he is OK with everything that’s going on. So, go ahead and have at him all you want.

            • Erron says:

              I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, but something about many of your posts presses my buttons, and I guess I boiled over on this one.

              You’re not the only one who has seen suicides. I could list several very personal accounts myself. And you’re right: sometimes you can see them coming, sometimes you can’t.

              I think that emotional blackmail was a perfectly valid interpretation of the EFFECT of your post, if not your intent. The fact is your post, if it had gone unaddressed, would likely have made people feel guilty for something they hadn’t done. And I believe it might have silenced people who wanted/needed to speak up. You may not have intended it that way , but that was the probable effect. No doubt it’s something in my own painful past about being silenced when witnessing things that were just plain wrong, but I had to say something, and I believe it was valid to do so.

              Finally, in the time I have been observing this blog I have never once seen people “going after” Patrick. Rather, what I’ve observed is people responding strongly to Patrick’s attacks on them. Justifiable responses, as far as I am concerned.

            • jackwaddington says:

              Guru: Quote:- ” I wanted MATURE feedback from a larger crowd as to whether my concerns had validity.” As I read you, your concern has little validity. You’re totally into your head and from my reading of you I have seen little or no evidence of any feelings, about yourself EVER emanating from you that I have ever read. Suicide (as I have repeatedly claimed in this blog) is present way before any off us came to therapy. Patrick ain’t gonna commit susicide … he’s too into his head and his own self worth to ever consider anything like that. AND so defended NOTHING will ever move him off his perch. In his own head he’s got the whole of humanyty figured out … except … seemingly … himself.

              Another quote:- “This amounts to yet another worthless release of stressful and emotionally distracting flood of cortisol emanating from having to deal with people who want to make an irritant of themselves for no valid logical reason ” If you find all this blogging stressful I suggest you give it all a rest until (if ever) you are able to FEEL where all this stress REALLY comes from Hint:- Primal Theory.


    • Phil says:

      I’m not seeing that we have to just sit here and receive Patrick’s insults, rage, bullying, and craziness without comment. The only reason might be in the hope that he would lose interest and go away. He seems to crave arguments and discussions about the theories he supports. I haven’t seen any signs that he’s suicidal. Just about everyone has suggested he get help for obvious problems.

      • Phil: It’s the ones who don’t talk about suicide who are the most worrisome. Some years ago I knew a guy around Patrick’s age pretty well and had an hour long conversation with him. Everything seemed perfectly normal. Less than a week later he put a gun to his head in a parking garage. It was messy.

        • Phil says:

          So you’re saying that anyone around us, not necessarily showing signs, is a potential suicide victim and that we should be worried?

          • Phil: Let’s walk back to the comment I made earlier today which inspired Erron’s bear poking comment. Do you see the post I made several hours ago?

            –Not everyone around us is in the same demographic as Patrick. Only a small sliver.
            –Not everyone around us has vociferously complained about suicides in a place devoted to the “therapy of the last hope” (as Art once called Primal)
            –Not everyone around us has had many people angry at him, including two professional psychologists, and ostracized by patrons of the “therapy of the last hope”

            That posting I made cuts the pool of people who won’t discuss any possible suicide plans down to size quite a bit from your original assumption, wouldn’t you agree?

            • Phil says:

              It looks like Patrick has cleared up any question of suicide and has indicated we should be worried about chemtrails. I’m more interested in what will happen on election day. From what I see, Hillary Clinton is hanging on to a slim lead, and may already have some advantage in early voting states. Otherwise we might need to see about moving abroad as Jack is planning to do.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Guru: quote:- “I know from experience having multiple people pile their hostility onto me simultaneously can be an intensely demoralizing experience which, if not checked by the recipient’s sheer strength of will or psychological fortitude, could lead to something tragic nobody wants.”

      Why do they (the recipients) have to be ones to be checked

      If indeed you really know from experience about being ‘piled’ on from “their” hostility onto you: I would have thought, from all the wisdom you have both told us you posses, and is implicit in your pseudonym. From that you should have known exactly how to avoid it. Seemingly not. Even your response to the direct question that Phil asked you; you were unable to give a direct answer. Instead weaved in some BS about having first consulted with some ‘wise councilors’

      Never telling us what those counselors told you, OR who they were.


  41. Margaret says:

    I hope you find a nice place for your mother to live in where she is well looked after and where she can participate in activities and enjoy the company.
    my mom had a very hard time at the start, but now is happy.
    as a matter of fact, I would not fear going to a home, when old, as the idea kind of appeals to me, all that company around while also having the option to be alone in one’s own room.
    when I had lost my eyesight I did stay in a home during one year, which had its downsides but also many up sides. once I found a few people I got along with well, both residents and caretakers, I had some very nice moments there.
    it was also very good to leave, felt liberating as I was too young and independent to go for that kind of sheltering yet, but anyway, the company appeals to me, which is probably saying something about feeling just a bit too lonely in my present life. not too bad, but needs improvment.
    Leslie, thanks, and purr from the kitties, who are full of mischief and affection.
    Sylvia, ha, an alien as missing link? that is hilarious, especially as there is no link to be missed as monkeys and humans only have a common ancestor, so are merely two branches of one tree, and so there is no link missing between them as they evolved simultaneously in different directions.
    it does illustrate the level of scientific validity of the sources, smiley!!!
    how are you doing these days and how are your cats and dog? not sure about the dog, sorry, focus more on cats by nature, smiley.
    like dogs as well, but cats usually more.

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret, I will side-step the serious discussions about the entanglement of concern for suicide risks about Patrick and our defense of ‘hitting back’ when he insults. I agree we should not take it, and Patrick knows, I think, what responses he will get when he begins a fight. We don’t wish any harm to anyone here, right? We want to help each other.

      Margaret, on to mundane things–My cats are doing good for now. The 3 kittens I raised from 6 weeks to six months are a handful. With the cold and rain beginning they play in the house a lot and get into everything. I got the 2 males ‘fixed’ and their feral mom cat. The little female is still immature yet. I’m getting yard work done while I supervise them and try to keep them from the neighbor’s dog yard. They are so curious and quick. My elderly female cat hisses her evil at them if they get too close and my little elderly-though-he-doesn’t-know-it dog loves playing with the kitties. Also there’s other feral cats, one who lets me pet her hang around. So, 4 wild and 4 tame make it feeding time at the zoo every morning and litter box change for the tamed ones.

      It does my heart good to know your mom is doing well.

      I always thought monkeys were cute. It’s sometimes easier to relate to that branch of the tree and the dogs and cats because they are all instincts and feelings, which so many humans have lost touch with, huh.

    • Erron says:

      Thanks Margaret. I’m not sure how I will feel about going into a home, though at 64 and not the best of health, I suppose I could start thinking about it. My main problem would be where to go to have a big feeling 🙂 maybe there will be primal retirement homes by then…

  42. Margaret says:

    you actually confirmed what Erron said. we can’t just all be pushovers, and we all tried a lot of times to help Patrick.
    I think Erron meant Patrick is a bearpoker, not you.

    • Erron says:

      Actually, it was more a generic comment, Margaret. I think we can all be bear pokers from time to time. The point I was making was not to expect to get away with it scot-free.

  43. Margaret says:

    what else can we do that we have not tried so far?
    if we don’t say anything he complains about being ignored.
    if we give helpful feedback he ignores us most of the time.
    still we try.
    if we express we do not agree, in whichever way, nice or less nicely we are insulted in an attempt to hurt us clearly.
    if asked in various ways to leave certain topics that are offensive to rest, after having written about them for months or even years, he does the opposite.
    so what do you suggest I’d like to know.
    none of us would want to harm Patrick, but he makes a sport of being obnoxious and hurtful himself and as you state yourself, being a pushover makes no sense either.
    so what do you suggest?

    • Margaret: I would like to hear from Patrick that he has no interest in suicide whatsoever. That would be at least a small reassurance for now.

      • Erron says:

        Then why did you not ask him directly?

      • Patrick says:

        Guru – I can confirm I have ‘no interest’ in suicide at least in the sense of doing it. You can absolutely put your mind at rest on that one and again thanks for the concern. It IS thoughtful of you as in the end most of us here do not really ‘know’ each other you go by signs which is fair enough. I mean the suicides here in the ’80’s was a very big issue for me it was not so much ‘well then primal therapy does not work’ at least I never came to that conclusion in any ‘absolute’ sense but it was more ‘as a practical matter’ it does not work. And really ‘as a practical matter’ both things came to the same so it was very frustrating I would say. And even now the fact I am on here does show I do believe in the utility and use of primal but at the same time I do feel an obligation to sort of call out all the ways it can be ‘misused’ and ‘abused’ and I have made those kinds of mistakes myself also. In an important sense I am ‘really’ mad at myself but it always seems a bit more involved than that but honestly I think I have ‘worked through’; a lot here and again I thank Gretchen for that. It might not be pretty but it HAS helped me a lot in that way I agree with Jack this blog can be good therapy

        • Erron says:

          I’ve heard this criticism of primal before: that because someone who is undergoing primal therapy suicides, the therapy doesn’t work. I’ve never heard it levelled at any of the psychotherapists and psychoanalysts whose patients routinely suicide. The fact is, any therapy is going to attract a number of very damaged people, and it is well-nigh impossible to tell ahead of time who will fall irretrievably apart as a result of undergoing the therapy. Therapy has its risks, and primal is no exception.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Quote:- ” I agree with Jack this blog can be good therapy” I am aware that in a recent post I admitted to first one thing about the blog being therapeutic and earlier saying that it was not therapy. I feel there is a difference. Therapy is performed by a therapist … blogging I do agree is therapeutic … but there is a subtle difference in the use of those words.

          However, It makes a nice change for you to agree with me.


  44. Patrick says:

    Well it seems I am getting ‘attention’ but I would like to try to be a bit ‘specific’ about the latest ‘\hoo haw’ Erron mentioned the little boy in the ‘gas showers’ and how moving and sad and how it has stayed with him all his life and how the ‘reluctant’ German finally ‘admitted’ all this and of course the heart rending ‘story’ of the little boy who says ‘mama I’ve been so good’ etc etc. This is coming on top of Jack’s ‘grand performance’ about ANOTHER little boy and all the feelings oh the feelings of it all and well me to it starts to seem like some giant grand guignol race to the bottom like who can ‘out pain’; who and it just seems actually kind of bogus. Just some demented primal competition about who can feel and tell about some super painful story.

    So I mention in what I feel is a low key way and it was ‘short’ (unlike me i suppose) and just said well as a matter of fact there were no ‘gas showers’ just a detail a little factual detail and I even said to Erron if you want to use it as a ‘metaphor’ ok. But THAT get’s deleted by Gretchen. That kind of get’s me going 2 more posts are deleted. Anyway not to replay all this but then Margaret announced Erron should not have to feel any inhibition about what he has to say! Well what about me? I just said to him basically cool it a little bit you know this ‘story’ could not be factual I am the one getting deleted all the time but she has no thought about that. So to me it’s like here up is down and down in up a lot of the time. We can have ‘inhibition of speech for real right out in the open but Margaret is only concerned with Erron’s ‘right to speak’ Of course he has every right but I also feel I have a right to say well I don’t think that is ‘factual’

    And I am a bit surprised like it is NOT ok to try to deal in ‘facts’ but it IS ok to make these crazy accusations about Germans all the time.This is not only here of course it is all over the place all the time but hold on a minute is it really ok to spew all these accusations which upon examination do not hold up. Even Daniel says nothing it seems he knows the ‘gas showers’ theory has been abandoned but maybe it does not suit his case so he is quiet? Or maybe he is not reading whatever. And I do think this is a big problem once we ‘abandon’ any notion of ‘truth’ all bets are off and I do feel they are mostly off in anything of importance that might concern us today.

    Anyway I am not going to address any of the rest including Leslie’s ‘brilliant analysis’ of me……………man she could be a therapist! But to say let’s be a little ‘factual’ here and kind of trace this (latest) ho how to it’s source.

    • Erron says:

      Patrick, the problem is your “factual” essays are always a launching pad for vicious personal attacks. That’s why your posts get deleted. You can delude yourself they are deleted because the entire universe has a personal set against you, but the rest of us will continue to call you on this bullshit.

      By the way, are you calling me a hoo haw in your first paragraph? The only two dictionary definitions I could readily find are 1) a Very Important Person, 2) a woman’s genitalia. Either way, I’ll take it as a compliment. I still think you’re a jerk 🙂

  45. Patrick says:

    Now to get to some moment of truth as i see it. Below is part of an email I just got from an anti vaccine activist. To me it is very interesting and if I had a vote now I would nave no hesitation in voting for Trump or maybe better said against HRC. And the vaccine issue that Dr Wakefield is pushing is also connecting up with the anti chemtrails issue. They both kind of come together and for sure if Clinton is elected there is NO possibility of any improvement of those things even Trump I am skeptical of but at least there is a chance imo………….

    In the last few days of August, Dr. Andy Wakefield stood before a room of people and hinted about a meeting he’d recently attended.

    Wrapping up his speech he warned the crowd, “This is a one issue election: the future of this country’s children. Use your vote extremely carefully. There is one person—whatever else you may think about him—who has expressed that he knows that vaccines cause autism and that vaccine damage is real. He would never allow mandatory vaccination. I had the privilege of meeting with him to discuss this precise issue. He is on our side. We will not get a second chance. Within two years of Hillary Clinton getting in, there will be mandatory adult and childhood vaccination across the entire country.”

    By that time it had been a year since Donald Trump stood on a stage with Dr. Ben Carson and Dr. Rand Paul and the pro-vaccine moderator, Jake Tapper, asked, “Should Trump stop saying that vaccines cause autism?” in a live television attempt to turn Carson against Trump.

    Instead, Trump jumped in and said that the autism epidemic is out of control, and that he is in favor of smaller doses of vaccines over a longer period of time. He said that he knew of a two and a half year old child who was vaccinated, developed a high fever, and became very sick and autistic.

    Then Dr. Carson backed him up by saying, “It’s true that we are probably giving way too many in too short a period of time,” and Dr. Paul chimed in that he was also concerned about the vaccine schedule.

    That backfire launched a week-long pharmaceutical-funded media attack on Republicans as being ignorant anti-science ninnies unqualified to have an opinion—despite two of them being medical doctors. But in typical fashion, because Trump didn’t continue to raise the vaccine issue at every tour stop, people on our side began to say that he didn’t care, that he’d walked back his statements, or that autism wasn’t even on his radar anymore.

    The team that visited Trump last summer says that he is very consistent in his position on vaccines. He has certainly not abandoned us. They specifically talked with him about vaccine-induced autism and they report that Trump undoubtedly knows that vaccines can and do cause autism.

    Trump asked the type of questions that show the depth of his knowledge of the subject, such as how the current schedule came into being and how he can change it. He is already up to speed on what is happening. He already understands the issue.

    One of the team members pointed out that “America can’t be great again” if this is the direction we are headed with our children and it visibly impacted Trump.

    The most important promise came at the end of their meeting when someone said, “Donald, you are the only one who can fix this.”

    And Trump said, “I will.”

    He will fix this.

    Fixing this is not rocket science. Hell, it’s not even vaccine science. He will fix this. It is entirely fixable, and he appreciates our advocates lending their assistance in getting it done.

    Friends, we have a direct route to stopping this madness. Can you imagine that for a second? Can you just imagine having vaccine education advocates getting face-time with the person who appoints the director of the CDC?

    Trump asked for a follow-up with our side. They are giving him advice on how to help us.

    Contrast that with Hillary’s autism action plan that failed to mention one word about autism’s cause or how to prevent it. Contrast that with her adviser who forbade her from mentioning “autism’s cause” in a speech, and who suggested she rephrase with how “autistic children’s brains develop” so that we don’t pretend for one moment that autism is environmental and preventable.

    Andy Wakefield gave him a copy of Vaxxed and Trump promised that he’d watch it right away.

    We already know that Donald Trump doesn’t care for pharmaceutical companies or Monsanto. And we know that the Clintons came into the White House in 1992 with a net worth of $300,000, left the office in 2000 with more liabilities than assets, but have commanded $230 million in the past 16 years from selling nothing but their political influence to pharmaceutical companies, chemical companies, Wall Street banks, and Middle Eastern kingdoms.

    The Clintons are owned. There is no denying that. Their lifestyle is funded in large part by the companies who profit off destroying our children.

    But the parent of a vaccine injured child has no business putting the nail in the coffin of generations to come.

    If Hillary takes office we would have to find a way to pay the Clintons more than all of the pharmaceutical companies combined because Hillary is not — not publicly and not privately– concerned about stopping vaccine-induced autism in this country. No one has paid her to care.”

    • jackwaddington says:

      Quote:- “Well what about me? I just said to him basically cool it a little bit you know this ‘story’ could not be factual I am the one getting deleted all the time but she has no thought about that.”
      How about you just giving it a try to “cool it” I doubt you even know how. It’s sort of imbred into you from (I suspect) your very early childhood.

      Another one:- “If Hillary takes office we would have to find a way to …………..” I am reading on the internet that IF Hillary was to win the election, the Republicans will set out to impeach her. The Republicans … even before anyone is elected … are going to “IMPEACH” her, is she wins the Election.

      Autism:- I believe (sure that means I don’t really know) 98% of all doctgors disagree with both Dr. Wakefield and the others and especially with that NON … MD ‘Donald the Trolland’
      I have another take … yet know that you’ll dismiss it before even giving it more than two seconds of REAL thought. My take is that Autism has it roots set in motion way before anyone is vaccinated. Like many other factors heretofore discussed … a factor is not a fact by anyones definition. I feel strongly that factors, that raise the more likelihood of a malady are set in motion earlier than the some statisical notion that are ‘sets it in stone’.

      Lest you are not yet cognicent of it, it’s called Primal Therory. Just a theraoy … that I consider is worth pursuing. Facts, like Opinoins, are the realms of the beholder.


  46. Patrick says:

    This thing about ‘bad mouthing’;Germans……………… it seem we only ‘bad mouth’ Muslims…………… there a connection there I would say there is it is the same ‘characters’ doing it……………..

  47. Patrick says:

    This might come under the heading of hearing what I already believe but the last week has convinced me Hillary Clinton is VERY corrupt and it seems all to be wiki leaking out now. Some of the ‘deals’ she has done is pretty shocking from the point of view of massive personal enrichment of her and Bill and it makes more sense now that she wanted a ‘private’ server. All those ‘deals’ could not stand the light of day. It seems even the bought and paid for media are cooling it a bit the headlines in the Huffington Post and the Guardian are getting a little more realistic.It seems this Comey guy was ‘shamed’ by outraged FBI agents who know what was going on to do something. I mean ‘bleaching’ computers and destroying cell phones and lap tops hardly pass the smell test. This person Hillary should not be allowed NEAR the white House or any government business ever again. Good riddance hopefully………….

    • jackwaddington says:

      I thought (maybe wrongly) that in the U.S. the.U.K. and possibly even in Ireland, that one (even Hillary and Clinton’s of whom I inclined to believe are STILL less rich than your new mentor Donald the Trumpetor) … one was innocent UNTIL PROVEN guilty.
      But then … what the fuck would I know.


    • jackwaddington says:

      Patrick: My take on your seeming adoration of D. J. Trump is not that you are stupid enough to not see through the guy as potential(I think you are not). However I do see your vote for Trump as a protest vote AGAINST Hillary … From some of your posts way back it seems your mommy “beat the shit outta you” for your transgression (according to her) for your behavior at your first communion (if I have it correct)

      My suggestion (merely mine and no-one else;) was that initiated all your thereafter re-actions to women. It’s sad you never did have a close relation ship with one (as far as I am aware; buddying for you) However I was aware of one that really was into you, but I thought you rejected her since she was as obese as you were. I feel you could have had great relationship with her … but like with a lot of guys (men) only the pretty ones are attractive enough, to warrant a close relationship. Sad!!!!

      Just my feeling … that is all.


  48. Patrick says:

    BTW Guru thanks for your concern it is nice somebody tried to put themselves in my shoes. But I am fine I am busy as I think ‘getting to the bottom’ hopefully of the ‘aerosol war’ which has a better sound to it than chemtrails. And Jack you might actually LOOK at the sky a few times a day it’s not as ‘blue’ as you seem to imagine or maybe you are just ‘remembering’ deep in some old feeling possibly……………

    • jackwaddington says:

      Patrick: Since you ask, I have been looking up into the skies and these last two day it’s been clear blue and not a cloud insight … not even a plane trail. Should I need convincing about chem-trails and aerosols I would need to go up there and smell them out. Otherwise it all seem very much the same as it did in the days when I first landed here.

      That is not to suggest that you are wrong. Merely that I don’t find you convincing.


  49. Margaret says:

    poor well meaning Patrick, ha!
    one big setup for a victim role and the one and only smart guy in the midst of all these ridiculous idiots surrounding him.
    boy, just tiresome repetition and selectiveness, mr> Trump being the one badmouthing muslims and mexicans etc. is convineiently forgotten momentarily, but that is just one of the crazy inconsistencies. taking up too much space.
    thank heavens for the delete button.
    am going for the ignoring again I think, best option, ignore and delete.
    but it is disgusting how he tries to ridicule and hurt people around here.
    and then plays the victim ha, talk about one phony act out.
    ok, I have had my say about it, wasted energy and better things to do.

  50. Margaret says:

    that sounds like a playful handful indeed, always cute but it does take watching out, doesn’t it?
    I always make sure there are no handles from bags they can get tangled up in, as my former cat almost choked herself still on a pair of sandals I had laying around,which confirmed it was good to avoid any risks if possible.
    like with kids..
    she loved to munch thin ropes and once I heard her chew and checked it out, and could just catch the last little piece of rope, and pulled it out, about 30 centimeter she had already swallowed came out again, thank heavens!
    all pieces of rope locked away since then…

    but they are adorable in their playfulness, aren’t they?
    and yes, I get what you mean by them and their instincts and feelings, smiley..
    and your support helped me when my mom was still going through the hard stage of adjusting to the change.
    it is very nice she enjoys living there now, she often mentions it spontaneoulsly and that feels very reassuring.
    we want our loved ones to be safe and happy, isn’t it, humans and others..

  51. Otto Codingian says:

    I stayed home from work today. Cat has not been doing well, and i have a little cold, so…He had a seizure in the morning and it looked like he was dead, but 30 seconds later he got up and responded to my petting. Anyway. My cable company must have found out that i had been thinking about taking HBO and SHOWTIME off my service, because they are showing some good movies finally. anyway, if you are an orphan like me, or just someone who did not have kind loving parents, you could watch Chld 44, the last few scenes. I did not watch the whole thing, and there appeared to be a lot of adreniline-producing violence throughout. anyway, not a real tearjerker, but dont some of us wish we had had kind, loving, strong parents?

  52. I believe Errons comments were meant for Patrick and not for you Guru

    • Gretchen: That is incorrect and it’s very clear from his post that he is talking to ME.

      This amounts to yet another worthless release of stressful and emotionally distracting flood of cortisol emanating from having to deal with people who want to make an irritant of themselves for no valid logical reason. This does not help me to properly maintain. balance, and tweak my remaining 71,500 different brain chemicals to keep my life smooth and easy, you know?

      • Erron says:

        Guru, I apologise that you took it so personally, but as I said to Margaret above in clarification:

        “Actually, it was more a generic comment, Margaret. I think we can all be bear pokers from time to time. The point I was making was not to expect to get away with it scot-free.”

        I can be a complete prick at times too, when my anger gets the better of me. If I do it on here I hope and expect to be called on it.

  53. Patrick says:

    To change thing up a bit I heard Bill Maher say “Anthony Weiner’s d… may not be as big as we have been led to believe but it sure casts a long shadow”

    I have a funny feeling we are just at the beginning of these ‘scandals’ and it might be dangerous times. If the Clintons are really cornered what might they do? Maybe be prepared for some spectacular ‘false flag’ unless they can finagle their way out of it.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Another quote:- “I have a funny feeling we are just at the beginning of these ‘scandals’ and it might be dangerous times. If the Clintons are really cornered what might they do? Maybe be prepared for some spectacular ‘false flag’ unless they can finagle their way out of it.”
      I suspect the feeling is more than a bit funny. If as Trump stuff has suggest is to “lock her up” and to mimic a a disable reporter and to want to build a wall at a cost that is prohibitive and denigrate Mexican, Women and then Muslims, then fraudulently create a University that gave nothing to the students, but made sure he got their money up front; I would suggest offers more problems for him and his empire than I feel, he and you, … seemingly … are aware of.


  54. only Erron can clarify but I did re-read his original post. I felt he was saying that it’s emotional blackmail for someone to threaten suicide ( which Patrick did not) after treating others badly. In other words you can’t bully others and then cry that it’s not fair when they react. Having pain is not a ticket to abusing others. People do need to say how they feel about the personal attacks they have endured. If you don’t want those reactions then don’t poke the bear was my interpretation. Frankly I would be equally concerned about some of the things said to others for example Vicki who has never returned or Leslie who has never said a mean word to anyone. She is honest yes but not malicious. I guess we might show equal concern for those who have had horrendous things said to them or about them in this situation. I do feel concern for Patrick as does pretty much every person here . We have all clearly said that and it was rejected. I do recall that you spoke out over the things said to Vicki and I did admire that. Anyway maybe I’m wrong about Errons comments but possibly you should re-read them. Gretchen

  55. Erron, The pet pics you posted were great but my favorite was the dead mom’s cookie recipe! Have you seen this video. A dog meets his favorite toy !

  56. Sylvia says:

    Great dog videos. Here is a Jimmy Kimmel tradition of parents telling their kids they ate their candy stash from Halloween. It seems mean and the kids are so helpless, but I did laugh when they fell to the floor in disbelief. True helplessness for them. I liked when the little girl said that that’s okay she can get another bag and go out the next night again.

    • Erron says:

      Wow, painful to watch. I have to wonder why and how parents could do this to their kids for a laugh…

    • Leslie says:

      I’m surprised Sylvia. It was so hard to watch. I know you explain later that you couldn’t tease a child like that and you are kind hearted – but I find it shocking that parents can do that, actually carry through with that, can hide behind & video it, and then send it in.
      It is the end of their world to children – and they can be taken advantage of so easily.
      I liken it to saying to us “Your home has burned down.” I really worry about the little girl who tries to make it right…sad.

  57. Erron says:

    Oh yes, the cookie recipe, an absolute classic!

    And that dog, so funny, many thanks 🙂

  58. Otto Codingian says:

    boy i really neededc thisx movier. mom beating the killer who wazs about to kill yher husgband and cyhilldf.

  59. Otto Codingian says:

    no escape. owen wilson not being funny. mom and dad killing to protect their kids. brought out the killer in me. lot of people watch sports to get to that feeling. i dont know what more to say. wish i could have that feeling in a safe room with help. it’s all about fear. and the fucking assholes who spread it. not gratuitis viollernce, pretty realistic. yes i stayed home all day, a little sick, petting the sick cat from time to time, watching tv, paying a bill or 2, getting some ringer’s lactate at the vet to subq the cat, getting some steak to give the cat gravy juice to fortify him. hot and dry in l.a. today.

  60. Sylvia says:

    I agree Erron, I couldn’t tease a child like that either, the world is so big and powerful and they are so little. But I think it shows how helpless we all were at that age.

    • Erron says:

      Yeah, Sylvia, absolutely, that’s what got to me personally. Helpless and hopeless are horrible, big places for me to go…

  61. Margaret says:

    as most people in the homes are prettty deaf, in the evening their televisions are playing wit the volume well open, and you could do some pretty loud screaming and wailing then without even being noticed, smiley.
    and well, that nurse and my mom singing were also loud enough!
    and well, the elderly have earned some consideration. I am less and less concerned with someone hearing me really.
    occasionally I might turn the radio on just to make it all a tiny bit less obvious..
    and often they’d just assume I have a tiny baby over here wailing away..
    not that I do so much crying these days, all is calm on the front mainly..

  62. Leslie says:

    Hi Erron – have to and want to say I did appreciate reading your ‘right on’ and direct comment about Ug’s emotional blackmail comment to me – especially since I got to read it immediately after reading his.
    Although I found it “off” – (as I also did with his purse strings one to Jack – where you also stepped up and stepped in) I would not have been able to label it.

    Ironically, years ago when Patrick was completely enthralled with cold water submerging (in LA mind you :), he wrote about while in the ocean one day he wondered if anyone would even notice he was gone; would even care if he just slipped in and under to drown… and how sad and scary that was for him.
    Back then it was for us too. I wrote how I/we would feel so badly if that had taken/took place & how hard it would be to think that he was suffering so & how we would think there was more we could have done to help…Lots of loyal primal bloggers like Larry, and Margaret of course, & Gretchen reiterated their likewise concerns. Patrick was touched by this. Patrick had been open and vulnerable.

    Fast forward all these years later and that Patrick is completely gone. He sees it as a good thing – and we are subjected again and again to his wrath, insanity and spam. Everyone as you know has pleaded that he get help – not here, not Primal but help for his deteriorating mental/emotional state. All this to no avail whatsoever. In fact, to Patrick we are the ones in dire straits of all that is going wrong in the world.

    As Gretchen pointed out we have lost Vicki from the blog and add to that Tom, Sandy, Jo, Wendy and some who do not want to be named and others whose names are not known – because of the
    horrid places Patrick takes it. Again and again we have to rise up from his destruction and I can’t stand it!

    I know full well that whatever Patrick does is not because of me and what I have to say. He unfortunately has re-created exactly what he so wanted to escape – and we do not need to be taken in by it, ignore it, nor endure it.

    When I too feel so frustrated by it all – the bright spots of meeting/reading your comments here help Erron. Thank you.

  63. Margaret says:

    Leslie, I relate to having a reaction on the little girl, and what she said. it seems an atttempt to minimize what happened, and maybe to take care of and please the parent at the cost of what she really felt.
    I’d feel so betrayed, my trust would be gone. and then videotaping it on top of things, so insensitive and even cruel because of that level of insensitivity.
    I was photographed a number of times while crying as a small child, 2 to four years old. t still puzzles me what might make my mom tell my dad to take a picture of me right at these moments, pictures back then were made more selectively than today.
    she also often commented on how funny I looked when crying and did not seem to want to take it seriously.
    not always anyway.
    in the end I started to go along with the story of being able to cry at will, sometimes did so ‘on command’, as a little show she put up, like see, she can bring up tears if you promise her a cookie if she can..
    so my crying was often labelled as just a show..
    seems to suddenly make some sense with what I wrote recently, about being reluctant to cry in front of my mother..
    she’d make it about her in one way or another, is my fear.
    it is a lonely place if you do not feel like showing your sadness around your own family..
    unsafety , need to protect them but more so to protect myself,, specially with regard to mommy…

    A lot of it has come up already during feelings, waht is left is a kind of background sadness, loneliness and unmet need.
    it does not impede me from having good times when they happen luckily.
    want to work on the good times as much as possible now.

  64. Margaret says:

    I think part of the problem lays in the original comment you wrote, where I must say it sounded kind of more like a criticism about how people respond to Patrick than about you expressing your concern and wanting to know whether he tends to feel suicidal.
    that is how it originally came across to me at least, while I must add you did say something in the way of most of the people here, and not all of them.
    , when you referred to the negative responses to his writings.
    so maybe the emphasis was kind of double, it seemed both about concern for a possible suicidal feeling but also a disapproval of how people react.
    I could refrrain at that moment of reacting on that by telling myself I might be in the small part you did not aim the criticism at, to be able to let go, but I do understand Errons question very well, like why did you not
    ask Patrick if that was really your point?
    you did just tell Erron he should be more direct, so maybe that could be a point of attention for you as well?
    just trying to sort out possible misunderstandings here, as you and Erron seem to mean well really.

    • Margaret: In my original posting about Patrick and possible suicidal ideation I was trying to explain exactly why I was growing concerned about it. I listed all the reasons I could think of which could contribute to something drastic happening.

      If I had addressed Patrick himself (even on the blog) instead of neutrally presenting it, I believe it would have appeared as though I am too much of a smothering mothering Patrick sympathizer to the blog readers.

      I wanted to present the matter dispassionately and only as a general post to all to help show that I was only concerned as a neutral party.

      Whether or not I publicly asked Patrick or mused about my concerns is very subtle consideration, in my view. Needless to say I got a lot more than I bargained for out of the whole affair.

      At this point I believe there is too much armchair quarterbacking after the fact and I am anxious to let this whole matter go as soon as possible.

      Patrick has made it clear there is no threat and that closes the matter for me.

      • I’m a bit unusual in the sense that I don’t have as strong reactions compared to most of the blog readers regarding what Patrick says. This does not mean I am agreeing with what Patrick says. This is a very important distinction to me because it sometimes seems as though if I am not negatively reacting towards Patrick, then the larger crowd starts to believe I must be siding with Patrick by default.

        I do agree that it’s a shame that many people have been driven off the blog due to Patrick and I can only suggest a better technological option to make room for everyone. I still think a V-Bulletin message board collating posts by topic would help tremendously. The only problem being that WordPress is free and I think V-Bulletin costs a few hundred dollars per year.

        • Erron says:

          Guru, I believe there are totally free forum software packages available that would give options to people and moderators to tailor their experience. Last time I checked anyway ( ~12 months ago).

      • jackwaddington says:

        Quote:- “If I had addressed Patrick himself (even on the blog) instead of neutrally presenting it, I believe it would have appeared as though I am too much of a smothering mothering Patrick sympathizer to the blog readers.” Well!!! arn’t you smothering/mothering sympathizer to Patrick? You have reasons to be, as he’s seemingly your only REALL ally

        I find your reasons for being on the blog second ONLY to Patrick’s. More to do with your own self promation … eg. Born into nobility, having boundless wisdom, requiring privacy for revealing your first name, being so adept at the English language. I personally find, not wishing to reveaL your first name when hundreds must know it, sort of a bit crazy.

        However, if you would care to use you ability at the English language to expaling it, that might give , at least me, some insight into you It is my feeling, and mine alone, that you are not really doing Primal therapy. I have never seen you voice and deep feeling about your past. It’s my deep feeling that is what this blog is all about … revealing oneself … especially our vulnerabilities. AND not self promotion. That, to me least-ways, is the antithisis of Primal.


  65. Patrick says:

    “driven off the blog” …………..well maybe or if the people say that I have to believe them, at the same time as Jack likes to say all of life is not hunky dory or lovey dovey all the time and for myself I do find it ironic that ‘primallers’ have a THEORY of saying whatever you honestly feel at any given moment but in PRACTICE not so much. I mean people are what they are but for example all the people Leslie mentions I don’t see why they can’t ‘confront’ me or whatever. For some reason I think of Tom V maybe he is put off by my ‘anti-semitism’ but he can put his points and me can put mine. And at least for the last year my points are based on a fair amount of reading and thinking about all this. I mean I imagine it could be good for both parties but from what I have seen that is not so much the way ‘primallers roll’. They will travel 6000 miles to ‘have their feelings’ but here it’s free and no harm can come to anybody but they close up shop. Then they have plenty to say I suppose at the retreats or whatever but honestly it seems a pretty poor way to live at least from my perspective. Why not express what is going on with you day to day or moment to moment the other way seems more a way to keep the doctor in business and the patient lacking.

    • Larry says:

      Because the way you do it, you are running away from and acting out feelings that you are unconscious of and you choose to stay that way. Most of the rest of us here strive to do the opposite.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Quote:- “Then they have plenty to say I suppose at the retreats or whatever but honestly it seems a pretty poor way to live at least from my perspective.”

      For someone that totally failed to do Primal therapy; your reasoning’s (mere left lobe usage) makes sense. It’s called “NEUROSIS” But I suspect you are clueless as to what that feels like.


  66. Daniel says:

    I agree with those who mentioned that we all – or at least most of us – tried to reach Patrick somehow but that it didn’t work out or last very long. Patrick is understandably upset about being edited, but it looks as if he is completely unaware of any wrongdoing on his part, utterly ignorant of any standpoints he took or attitudes he adopted or anything he might have said that might have made it impossible for the rest of us and the PI to go on as usual, as if these were just another opinion, standpoint and attitude.

    No. They were not. And as Gretchen predicted some time ago Patrick was upping the antis and did so to the point of utter impossibility and hopelessness that it convinced many of us the matter could be resolved not by any meaningful interaction with Patrick but only by editorial action against him.

    Patrick may go on about ‘free speech’ and compare his ideas to those of others on the blog, again as if his were just regular ideas that any publisher would be willing to publish and therefore should be allowed here as well. However, the truth is that no one outside the neo-Nazi media would publish such notions, and this blog was very tolerant and allowed it – under its own PI name and logo! – for a very long time.

    Patrick, perhaps without meaning to, has sided with those the western world considers to be the worst criminals in history, mass murderers on an unimaginable scale, whose mass murders were not merely ‘war crimes’, the likes of which any war brings about, but crimes pure and simple.

    That is why I haven’t commented on the ‘gas shower’ issue, Patrick; I just didn’t want to get into Holocaust discussions with you. For the reasons I wrote above we can’t find a common ground for discussion. If one so vehemently refuses to acknowledge that purposeful mass destruction of Jews took place during Nazi time and war than we don’t have even the first basis for discussion about it.

  67. Patrick says:

    Below is something I wrote this morning to all my family, brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews (grandchildren too young)

    I feel I should kind of give my ‘take’ on the elections here. One thing for sure it is not boring and with about 4 days to go nothing would surprise me at this point. WW3, some massive ‘false flag’ Trump being shot or having a ‘heart attack’ state of emergency declared whatever whatever………..what all these have in common is HRC HAS to be elected, it is on many levels not acceptable at all if Trump gets in. Which gets to the point WHY? well I do believe now the Clintons are VERY corrupt I used to blow all that off as Republican nonsense about ‘scandals’ etc but from a lot of reading and thinking and looking between the lines Clinton is in serious legal jeopardy due the massive corruption involved in the Clinton Foundation, we are talking BIG money scandals here private enrichment enables by being Secretary of State. Hence the need for a ‘private server’ there is no way she could have conducted all this ‘officially’ and FOI requests etc would doom her. There is MORE corruption too total carelessness about ‘national security’ and as you might glean from the presence of Anthony Weiner a LOT of sex scandals. And very bad ones involving I am afraid to say children or at least underage people. This is explosive beyond all imagining and the ONLY real way for HRC can escape all this is to BE elected. (If you want to know more look up Jeffrey Epstein and the “Lolita Express” and his connections with Clinton and interestingly enough Prince Andrew also – he even has a ‘connection’ with Trump which might well be a big problem also (for Trump). I even think now this is why Trump is going a bit easy on Clinton they all have some skeletons in the closet but the Clinton’s are way way more than Trump for example) Then ‘executive privilege’ comes in she can appoint or keep ‘her’ people in Justice for example Loretta Lynch.

    So Trump better be careful, has anyone noticed THREE people close to or involved with Julian Assange all DIED recently his lawyer jumped in front of a train in London (yeah right!) the guy who was giving him the leaks from the DNC shot in the back of the head and another ‘co-founder’ of Wikileaks just dies in London McFadden I think was him name. Which bring up Assange WHERE is he getting his leaks from my theory is it is from disgruntled FBI, even NSA people. There is still such a thing as “American patriotism’ and these people are majorly pissed off at the scams and betrayals of the Clinton’s. So now we have a kind of civil war in the Government and even at a very high level. Dangerous stuff that. Both sides have the ability to pull false flags, assassinations etc but for myself I see all of that coming from the Clinton side so vote Trump he is a sort of babe in the woods here. It is actually kind of gripping but the reality probably is Clinton will squeak in most of the legal damage can be quited down and business might resume as normal.

    In reality either way there won’t be great change you WILL get above all a “President for Israel” even Trump is sadly enough that but I would infinitely prefer him to HRC. People predict here it might be like Brexit and there is a lot to that a kind of last gasp of patriotism and people wanting to cling to the idea that a country still means something. Most of the people feeding all this stuff to Assange are ‘patriots’ and I wish them all the luck in the world. They will need it

    Anybody else feel free to send their take

    This guy I find very trust worthy and I do believe he gets to the reality of what is going on.

    • jackwaddington says:

      I read this post of yours and from your perspective. it’s all gloom and doom. I have reason to believe, some of what you say and have done way more thinking , in my time, than you have at this tender age of merely 64. I’ve gotten a 20 year head-start on you

      If we were to ABOLISH ‘money’ 95% of the gloom you mention would just evaporate. Give it more than your unusual 2 seconds of thought; if you can!!!!! It does require you to climb out of your boxed in notions, however.


      • Sylvia says:

        Well, I might as well get into the fray. I liked what Daniel said, he is so clear thinking and sums up things nicely regarding Patrick–sorry about the pile-up Patrick, we all just want you to feel about your past, but that is up to you if you don’t wish to, though I think you are missing out on the benefits.
        Jack, we all are promoting ourselves here, showing how smart we are, or think we are. On the other hand we ask for support and understanding too.
        Sorry to those who were upset by the children being pranked by their parents. I was upset too and came to think J. Kimmel must have grown up with tricks being played on him and he is passing it down without realizing its harm. The two little blond girls really got to me, being so vulnerable. The older boys were able to fight back. The last few months I have been fascinated with the feelings and intelligence of children. For the first time I can feel their pain. My grandnieces are now in their teens so I may have missed some of that pleasure of fully appreciating them at that earlier age.
        So much for that.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Sylvia: “Jack, we all are promoting ourselves here, showing how smart we are, or think we are. ”

          I don’t fully agree, and if that is so, I find it a defense mechanism. I do feel most of us are promoting our feelings however and whatever. If I was THAT smart I wouldn’t need therapy or a therapeutic blog.

          AND a Smart Car. 😦 😦 .


          • Sylvia says:

            It must be nice to have a smart car–I always hated pumping gas.
            I feel we show off our talents and abilities to see things more clearly. After so many years of being clueless and being ‘in the dark’ I feel I’m spreading my wings speaking up here. Maybe it is a defense to want to be recognized, or maybe it is healthy having the strength to show ourselves. It is hard to know what a defense is until we’ve used it enough and no longer need it because we have dealt with something, felt about it, took action about it, or whatever it takes.

            • jackwaddington says:

              Sylvia: As I see it, there is a big differencd between promoting oneself as per being of nobility and having tooms of wisdon, AND merely expressing oneself, blog-wise.

              If one is genuinely intelligent or very adept at something, I feel it naturally shows through, since it’s a fundamental part of who we are. Promotion is what is done in advertising and not necessarily a ‘fact’ out there in the ether … as t’were.

              Hope this lets you know how I feel on this matter. No problem if it is still not clear.

              Yeah! the smartest part of me is my car … great on gas … easy to drive and park; but should one need to pick up more than one person at the airport; it doesn’t cut it.


            • jackwaddington says:

              Sylvia: one other thing you mentioned and that was suggesting it was a defense. I don’t think so. Defending in the Freud/Janov sense is:- when one is in denial about an aspect of oneself. I don’t see what you were suggesting as being defensive.

              I do see both Patrick and Guru As bding defensive. Juis MY take on these guys.


  68. Sylvia says:

    Hi Jack, yes I see what you are saying. And there are defenses and then there are defenses. I was thinking in terms of Janov saying we need defenses, that is who we are, an integral part of us. I’ve tried to be honest with myself on this journey, but I can only be as honest as I can see at that time. Later, with more hindsight and experience I can see how I was defending and needed to. The other kind of defense where we choose not to see or admit to something because it is a little painful is what I think you mean. Those things, or feelings should be addressed and accessed in therapy or however one can manage it, I think, as long as we are strong enough. And hopefully that process will become a habit to feel when we should or need to.
    As far as Guru and the nobility thing, I always saw that as a kind of satire or humor and did not take it seriously.
    Be safe driving your Smart Car.

    • Sylvia: Although on the surface it was a joke pertaining to the Poo-pourri commercials, my father’s side did come from British South Yorkshire nobility. This is going way back to the 14th and 15th centuries or thereabouts.

      • Back then it was most likely just “Yorkshire”.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Guru: Being of noble decent!!!! Does that do anything for you … other than brag? I see Queen Elizabeth as some very privileged place in the U.K. But I don’ see her as being any less fucked-up as the rest of us I don’t see you as making light of it. I feel you are serious and feel you have a special place in the human race.

        For me, there isn’t a noble bone in my body … it’s just all part of my anatomy. No better or worsae than anyone else.


        • Erron says:

          I Think I Could Turn And Live With Animals…
          By Walt Whitman
          from Song of Myself

          I think I could turn and live with animals,
          they are so placid and self-contain’d,
          I stand and look at them long and long.

          They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
          They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
          They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
          Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
          Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
          Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

          • jackwaddington says:

            Erron: I like that … yet we are nothing more than another animal that somehow lost is animal-ness.

            We’re so fucked. BUT Janov has discovered they is a way out of it. Will we in due time save ourselves and the rest of the animal kingdom and the very planet before it’s too l;ate?????

            For others to come, I hope so. For me I’m on th last lap anyway … BUT so glad I got to read that book.

            How’s things down under. I once set off to go live there. In hindsight I was happy to stay in the northern hemispher.


            • David says:

              Jack and Erron,

              One very notable, and relevant, difference between us and other animals is that we are the only species (as far as I’m aware) that can cry. We can get very messed up, yes, but we also have this unique ability to heal ourselves. Why we are so unique is to me a very interesting question.


              • barb says:

                i will hereby commit primal anathema by saying I believe God gave us humans both our more complicated brains which are able 2 create all kinds of mental defenses, AND our unique ability among animals 2 cry tears.

                animals, w/their inability to rationalize pain, simply die when overloaded w/it. maybe they’re better off. I sometimes seriously believe they are.

                • jackwaddington says:

                  Barb: I think you have some great points there, BUT for me the ‘God’ notion is for me a huge part of our fuck-up. I’ve written an article on the subject. The interesting thing. is that the ‘God’ notion is instilled into us as children through fear and terror of his wrath. Once we’ve bought into it all, then we are told that he (she or it) is so, so, so benevolent kind and loving.


                • Phil says:

                  I think animals can become neurotic as well. Probably all animals, including us, will die when extremely overloaded.

              • jackwaddington says:

                David: I have a ‘pet theory’ as to how all that came about … the so called uniqueness. I will write an article about it if you are interested and send it as an attachment to an email if you give me an email address. In short, I feel it was our decent into neurosis that affected a huge amount of our behavior that we now consider to be our intelligence and uniqueness. My theory also suggests that we started that process some 20 to 30 millennium ago.

                I am not so sure that we get a better life experience. We just tend to think it so!


                • David says:

                  “I have a ‘pet theory’ as to how all that came about … the so called uniqueness.” Can you think of another animal that can cry? I can’t. I’d say that makes us pretty unique. I know quite well from what you’ve written on the blog about your theories of how thinking/intelligence is an aberration, or some evolutionary distortion of who we really are. But I find myself always disagreeing with you on this particular subject. For me, thinking and feeling are just two different aspects of who we are. If my mum dies, I need to feel about it. If I want to program my guitar synthesiser, I need to think about it. I need both parts of myself to live.

                  • jackwaddington says:

                    David: Allow me to clarify my notion on the subject of what is the “thinking mind” (left lobe mechanism) . The mind (brain) is a mechanism to organize the expression of feelings, as I read Primal Theory. Nothing more or less. In the event of MY mother’s death I cried for several days about my loss. It didn’t require of me to ‘think’ about my crying OR even to figure out why I was crying; I just did it.

                    As for synthesizing ones guitar … I’m not sure that without guitars life would be disastrous … were we not neurotic.


                    • David says:

                      “The mind (brain) is a mechanism to organize the expression of feelings”. Exclusively? I’m doing more than expressing feelings as I go about my day that I know my brain has to deal with. Setting up my guitar synth is what I’m preoccupied with today, so I used that as an example. Life would not be disastrous without it, but it would be a little less fun 🙂

                    • jackwaddington says:

                      David: I have no problem with you finding FUN your way. Nor does it unduly bother me if you disagree with me. Many disagree with me.


              • Erron says:

                Crying is not the only way to express emotions; the animal world is full of examples of them doing exactly this. Elephants for example, are renowned for it. Just because our tear ducts function differently does not make us in any way superior. And considering the fact that our understanding of animals seems largely limited to the mechanics of farming them, I don’t think that we can discount their own ability to heal emotional stress. We simply don’t know enough about them, or ourselves.

                • Sylvia says:

                  Erron and David, I’d like to think that the animals can heal their traumas given the right safety conditions. I think it was the old PI Newsletter where someone said after their dog was home from the vet procedure and feeling safe to do so, howled in emotion from what it had been thru. Janov also believes it is possible in one of his web articles (Oxytocin (part 5/5 April 11, 2009.) He states in response to a comment someone asking if our creatures can primal. He says: “…we had a dog who was rescued and it was very frightened all the time. I put his head under my armpit and caressed him. He began to cry and whimper like a baby.”

                  • David says:

                    Sylvia, I’d like to think animals can heal their traumas as well. But compared to our own capacity to heal…. I don’t think it is comparable really. But that’s just my opinion of course…

                • David says:

                  Crying is not the only way to express emotions but it is uniquely human. And I did use the word unique, not superior. I heard about elephants being closest to us in what may be a capacity to weep, but it is not confirmed that they cry in the way we do.

            • Erron says:

              While Jack, Australia seems to be “enjoying” a boom of around 20 years uninterrupted by recession or downturn. It means our cities are becoming increasingly Asianised, in the sense that most young people can now only afford to live in high-rise tower units. In effect, we have become like the rest of the Western world: globalised and commoditised. I could bang on about it – I personally think we’ve lost the plot – but it wouldn’t achieve anything. The house I bought for $54,000 in 1986 is now worth $900,000, even though it needs lots of work. Not sure of the meaning of the word progress anymore. Increasingly, our world belongs to fewer people, whom the rest of us never even get to see.

              • Erron says:

                should have read ‘Well, Jack’.

              • jackwaddington says:

                Erron: That’s sort of sad to read. I was under the impression that Aussieland had a “yellow peril” policy. Maybe that’s now all changed. I too feel that same thing about progress. Progression to what??? We’ve been doing the “have’s and the have not’s” for quite a long time, and I feel that without a mighty radical change, we’re pretty doomed; perhaps quicker than I feel most are not even prepared to think about.

                My feeling (for what it’s worth) is Donald Trump epitomizes the whole cabooble. That’s not to say that Hillary is the best thing ‘since sliced bread’. Meantime, for me, I just get on with my life and I feel reasonably good about it.


  69. Otto Codingian says:

    I have a lot of distaste for kimmel and his former co-host of the man show adam carolla. i dont know if it is warranted or not but i have the distaste still. i dont like what they say. the man show was a good idea and a funny show, but some of what they said was crap. carolla when he was doing loveline on the radio, well he had no background to be telling people how to fix their problems or suggesting always that they must have been molested. as i said, i could be wrong about these two, but the distaste will never go away. maybe it is meanness that i detect.

  70. Leslie says:

    I am relieved to read your comments Sylvia as I worried you might feel hurt or humiliated and that was not what I wanted. I work with families & witness lots of cruel and crazy behaviour…
    The thing I know – is that the mean things my dad said to me I can still recall to this day.
    I was also thinking how you described your mom as constantly critical of you & wondered if you had to survive that with a thicker skin back then???

    • Sylvia says:

      I liked Erron’s Whitman poem. Adam Carolla seems like he was put here to give people a bad time, judging by the things I’ve seen of him.
      Leslie, I don’t think it was so bad with my mom growing up, more like the last several years she became mean with me about half of the time. I think when my dad became ill and passed away she lost some of her emotional security and stability.
      Growing up she didn’t take out her temper on me but I saw it come out for the two oldest boys in slaps and yelling. We last three had an example of how to act. She could be very loving and I did have a bond with her but sometimes would be anxious and afraid when she went after the two. She grew up in a violent home. And I guess so did we.

  71. Patrick says:

    Quote: “I’ve got an article” “Ive got a theory” or “Ive got a notion’ Who the fuck cares? Wanker always accusing the likes of Guru or me being ‘in your head’ you have your head up your arse but I understand you like that feeling………………things up your arse I mean………………..

  72. Patrick says:

    Ive got a feeling…………… sick of this wanker year after year after year sitting on his toilet with stuff up his arse pontificating and defecating on me………………..

  73. Patrick says:

    Guru is of a too ‘noble class’ to lash out at this wanker not me we have waited for hundreds of years go give these English wankers a small dose of the shit they have dealt out to us……………fuck you you pompous ass…………….you are still a twisted and tortured English motherfucker it’s deep in your genes (or something)……..

  74. Patrick says:

    But you always would foolish me to think other wise………………..they take everything away until then you look to them after all they took it away so they must have it…………….NO they don’t just posing and wanking fuck these motherfuckers esp fucking Jack

  75. Margaret says:

    that is indeed an interesting question.
    one point being is the question about is there a crucial difference between feeling sadness and being sad like animals can, with or without vocally expressing it, and being sad with crying included?
    an animal that loses its partner, specially monogamous species that mate for life, must feel depressed, and elephants are said to mourn the deceased ones.
    a mother losing her young feels bad at least for a while..
    caged animals definitely feel bad, as do animals that are forced to be on their own instead of in a company of others, and feel bad enough to cry or howl, specially when they are group animals like dogs.
    but also cats are happy to see their human come home, mine just came up to me to push its head against my elbow and purr to llet me know he needs some attention .
    so well, my point is I am not sure whether the extra of crying does make it essentially different.
    and we are not even a hundred percent certain whether there are no other phyisical means of getting rid of an overload of stress hormones some animals might possess when under stress.
    after al isn’t that what our crying is about?
    for expressing the feeling the sound and action could be sufficient, for getting rid of the stress hormones the tears come into play.
    then why do we cry and other animals seemingly do not? is it that we go to unacceptable levels of stress otherwise for our systems which might be damaged without the safety valve of crying?
    all interesting questions..
    but I would not go to making it some kind of criterium to make us basically different from the animals on the emotional side, more of a gradation difference is what my intuition supposes.
    and yes, the interesting question does remain of the crying, and is it really true we are the only species with that kind of stress release?
    did it always exist in our species or did it maybe develop together with neurosis?
    just coming up with more questions.
    mm, certainly an interesting field of exploration!

    the hippopotamus starts sweating a bloodlike slimy substance when under big stress, like first discovered when some English ‘adventurer’ made a lot of effort to catch a young one, to take it with him to England to give it as an exotic gift to some king or something.
    now it could be an attempt to easier escape by being so slippery, who knows, although I wonder if it would help much against a big hungry crocodile, too many antislip teeth I would think..
    come to think of it,maybe it is related with our species having an exta long dependent childhood, as we are actually being born many months to early in comparison to other species, as with our large brains and heads we would otherwise never get out of the mother’s womb.
    so maybe there is more cause for possible stress having such a long vulnerable period in comparison to other animals?
    or maybe it developed together with the larger brains?
    as far as I know our brains are larger and more elaborate but not basically different in setup than other animals brains.
    our innner ear developed from the fishes ‘kieuw’, don’t know the English name, the part they flap in order to get oxigen out of the water.
    it just moved backwards and shrunk and changed somewhat to become our hearing device. so we are all deeply connected and part of the same evolution.
    that is why I react against ‘distinctive’ qualities I guess, but I know David you are mentioning it also in an inquiring way, I am merely thinking out loud inspired by your interesting remark.

  76. Patrick says:

    I am sure all this seems pretty crazy but it’s the COMBINATION that gets me this wanker sets himself up as critic and judger of everything any idea certainly be the likes of me or Guru is found to be ‘IN YOUR HEAD’ ok I can even deal with that for myself pretty much I mean I am ‘in my head’ a fair bit but then here he comes “ive got a theory’ ive got a ‘book’ ive got a articley’ ive got a paper etc etc fucking hypocrite to the max. And to get away from myself for a second Guru has his issues I am sure but I have found him to be a cool independent type person not to mention a great sense of humor and this wanker craps on his head day after day after day. If Guru is trying to emerge in some way what chance does he have with this wanker poised I might say ‘cocked’ and read to ‘shoot’ him. he’s given up cruising he says but the dynamic is the same…….And of course I am the bad guy Leslie ONLY sees me as the problem I will say ‘primallers’ in general are not very bright they have been told being bright is bad so they are mostly fucking stupid and an ideology that justifies that.Mind you for ‘control’ that is necessary that way Janov can lord it over them forever and ever does not matter the huge failures mostly and his little lieutenant Jack to enforce this stupidity.. Mostly just useless hopeless people and of course I have ‘driven them off the blog’ Vicki is mentioned well whatever she is or was doing before I came on the blog and being ministered to for years and years by Gretchen did not seem to do much for her if appearances are to be trusted or Jo just another ‘precious’ English snooty nosed wanna be ‘upper class’ cannot deal with a peasant like me. Well fuck you all you toffee nosed upstairs downstairs motherfuckers I am here……………

  77. Phil says:

    We express sad feelings by crying and animals don’t seem to do that. But I don’t think we should assume that crying is the only way to do that; maybe other animals have different expressions.

  78. Leslie says:

    And then there is the reptilian brain…

    • Patrick says:

      Whatever you stupid insipid person…………we all have a ‘reptilian brain’ get over it or do you need to feel yourself ‘better’ than that. To me you are not and as for Phil his brain seem ‘sub reptilian’ how’s that idiots……….

  79. Patrick says:

    Seemingly my big ‘crime’ with Jo was to suggest there might be a connection between being sent away to boarding school at a very young age and her traipsing to retreats year after year (institutionalized behavior) I though that was being helpful but on NO no no no…………….that ‘offends’ her or whatever. Such uptight people such touchy motherfuckers in spite of the ‘groups’ or Leslie another one she has a ‘go’ at me all the time I don’t really mind that is what she feels ok but that’s not ENOUGH for her no no no she must try to ‘prove’ over and over I am the ‘bad’ guy I have ‘deteriorated’ etc etc blah blah blah you do not know me you have no idea who I am. Leave me the fuck alone as I leave you with you constant insipid x’s and o’s I don’t try to stop you that’s who you are fine I don’t really have a problem with that though I do find it VERY insipid I do but so what I let you be now you let me be. I don’t even care if you do I am me I don’t need your insipid approval. And that goes for all you motherfuckers including you Margaret keep your nonsense to yourself as regards me and no more bogus stories about me . You ‘remember’ everything wrong and all with some stupid agenda again you can go on about your cats till the cows come home I don’t care and I let you alone………….do you leave me alone. You don’t

  80. Sylvia says:

    Isn’t it ironic that some of us need our pets around us to remind us to be human. They are more human than we are with their gentle feelings.

  81. Phil says:

    Ah yes, the reptilian brain, which doesn’t cry, does it?
    It’s been starting to get cold around here. My reptilian brain is encouraging me
    to find a warm spot and be kind of like a lizard sunning itself on a rock.

  82. David says:


    Of course animals have feelings as anyone who has owned a pet, including yourself of course, can attest. But specifically being able to shed tears is as far as I know, uniquely human. Animals can certainly be traumatised, but they can’t recover from that trauma, as far as I’m aware, in the way we can. Also there are different kind of tears that are released through different systems in the body. I’m going here on what I read in Thomas Stone’s book Cure by Crying. So irritant and cleansing tears function separately from emotional tears. If the nerves in the face that control tears are cut, irritant and cleansing tears stop, but emotional tears keep coming, indicating they function through separate systems in the body and evolved separately. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just going on what I’ve read. Thanks for your interesting comment, I know you’re studying evolution or at least evolutionary psychology so it’s interesting to get that perspective on what the possibilities for how we developed are. I have pretty rudimentary knowledge as far as all of that goes, how we developed with our healing capabilities is something I just put out there as an interesting question.

  83. Margaret says:

    ha David, that is interesting.
    and well, one occasion I witnessed which felt to me significant and clear, was about my former cat, who was very ‘talkative’, with many different sounds.
    many years I brought her to my mom when travelling to L.A.,, the first time I got back and she saw me she was thrilled and jumped right up near to my face,, on the side of the couch, put her nose against mine and started a long explanation so to say with many different intonations. but every year she became more and more angry upon my return, and hissed and lashed out to me when I approached her upon my return, and it would take at least a day before she would come around.
    but then one time I decided not to try to go to her but to let her come to me, and there she was after a little while, walked up to me and again started a long explanation, so incredibly expressive, full of different feelings, hurt, indignation, something that sounded like questioning, not understanding, how could you do that to me, etc., putting interpretative words to it but the feelings sounded clear. when she got through it all, in one long go, she turned around and walked off, but soon after she allowed me to pet her, an amazing difference to the former times when she remained so cross she sometimes frightened me when I had to put my bare feet on the floor next to where she was sitting under the bed, as she threatened to lash out at those times.
    but hey, after she got her say, expressed herself, it seemed to be out of her system as I had just stood there looking at her and listening to her.
    now for most this seems probably a farfetched interpretation, but to me it really felt the way I describe it and the facts are she was not angry anymore shortly after.
    now this was a very smart cat, not all cats are like that, the two ones I have now are both very different from each other.
    one of them is learning to bring back one of his toys so I can throw it away again and he can make a big leap to catch it.
    that does also only work out with some cats, and it was interesting to watch him figure out after it happened kind of spontaneously the first time, what I was encouraging him to do again. I find it fascinating and so nice to connect with animals in general, as Sylvia said, gentleness being a key word there.

    and no, apart from the crocodile tears which I doubt to be emotional, probably just moisturizing the eyes that remain above the water, I do not know about any other crying species.
    my cat got very sweaty feet at the vets, smiley, being scared, leaving almost four little puddles on the table when she could finally rush back into her travelling cage..
    and monkeys have very similar facial expressions which go with the same set of emotions as ours.
    maybe there has not been research on a possible tear there so far, who knows?
    Barry has done a good research on the stress hormone level content of emotional tears.
    hope you can set up that syntesizer for the guitar, too bad we cannot hear the results!

    • David says:


      Interesting to hear about your cat conversation. I have a friend in LA who likes to share about her cats and to impress on me their different personalities, as she sees it. I like cats, and dogs also, but I don’t have any pets myself at the moment, though I think from time to time about getting one. Firstly, until fairly recently, I lived in second story apartments and felt a cat should be able to easily come and go and not be cooped up all the time, so I didn’t think it was fair to have one. Also, it has been taking all my energy just to try and take care of myself, let alone someone or something else. Also, because I don’t have a partner, there is also something there for me that if I get a pet it is like I have failed somehow, because I can’t get a person I can only get a substitute. But a pet might be really good for me. One of my Facebook friends shared a while ago about how she felt her soul opened up when she got a dog for the first time. And I do really like dogs, and I lavished a lot of affection on the two labradors we had in our family when I was growing up.

      Yes, I looked at Barry’s research on tears on the PI’s site and it looked fascinating. No surprise that women cry a lot more than men.

      As for my guitar synth, I bought it so I could conveniently record keyboard sounds, not to try and improve on natural guitar tones, which cannot be done IMO. The setting up is me creating my own sounds versus going with the factory presets which are basically 90% rubbish. They are heavily overcooked (over processed) and designed to grab your attention and try and impress you in a guitar shop. But when they’re stripped back and used more subtly, there are some stunning sounds I’m coming up with. Now it’s about finding a use for them.

  84. Otto Codingian says:

    temple grandin’s writings about animals are interesting to read.

  85. Otto Codingian says:

    Patrick, thanks for the beatles link. I wonder if John cried in group about the beatles breakup.

  86. Otto Codingian says:

    ok i go buy steak and/or pizza for me cat dog. cat meowled horribly the other morning and convulsed and i thought he was dead, but he came back to life. this cat too is very vocal. my poor wife facetimes me daily from champagn to see the cat. dog and cat hear her on the phone but dont really react much. but if my dog hears the barking monster dog on the phone, she starts barking.

  87. Leslie says:

    Hi David – I too have heard about elephants crying. There is a great book by Barbara Gowdy called “The White Bone” that details the emotional life of the African elephants survival in a very unique, fictionalized way.

  88. Margaret says:

    just a passing thought before reading the rest of this morning’s comments.
    reading Sylvia’s post about animals processing their feelings, I thought about how they can dream as well, which is very clear if you watch them while they sleep.
    I’d assume if one can dream one can go through difficult episodes again that way as well..
    one of my cats tends to want to suckle a fluffy blanket I use in the evenings on the couch.
    sometimes I try to gently push him away or distract him, as well, a lot of saliva involved there but he so clearly enjoys it as he purrs very loudly and I assume he still needed his mommy or did not get enough when he was little, so sometimes I let him go on, and just throw the blanket in the washing machine afterwards…

    luckily he does not always feel the urge to do so, in a way it is very endearing, as he also paws away in delight, but mm, I wish he would not need to do it if I had the choice, smiley..
    haha, is it an actout of his, or a way to deal with the feeling? it is just his way to feel good at that moment, satisfying an old need, and hopefuly getting to terms with it suckle by suckle..

  89. Patrick says:

    I saw Trump saying yesterday he would stop sending billions to the UN for ‘climate change’ programs. He may be onto the geo engineering, chemtrails, aerosol war take your pick as to what you call it. To me that is more than good news IF true. But he seems to already be onto the vaccine crime/scam and as I said before the 2 things are related, related as in poison everybody and everything. Trump also said yesterday Clinton is the politician of the past he is of the future.. That says it very well though I would not expect ‘addicted to the past people’ like Jack to agree.

    I am reading this book “Clinton Cash” and it’s a total eye and mind opener the Clinton s through this total scam called the Clinton Foundation are incredibly corrupt. You would have to read it to see just HOW corrupt. All of this email business if not the real point except the ‘private server’ was necessary to hide all this corruption. And they have been at it a long time 16 years now it has been going and its money money money for the Clintons. Bill got 1.5 million for a speech to a bank USB that needed State Dept ‘help’ and they got it from Hillary and Bill got his 1.5 million for a SPEECH of course really a bribe. There is loads and loads more and it is also clear they have no loyalty to the US at all sell out the country constantly including in things like nukes and ISIS. I can see all this nonsense now of focusing on Trump’s mannerisms let’s just call it that is such a scam and meant to just distract and fool the naive as it does here also ‘deep thinkers’ like Jack included.

    I start to think/hope Trump will win it seems he may well take Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, even Minnesota or at least a few of those. If he does he should make it but I dunno it’s a toss up I think and the disgustingly biased media here may still pull her over the line (literally as she is very ill). This will be very bad for American if she ‘wins’ not to mention she will be about to be impeached from day 1. As she should be. I was never on board believing the Clinton corruption thing and thought the Republicans tried to make a whole lot out of nothing in the ’90’s so I was kind of blind to this. The big corruption started just AFTER Bill left office and has been going very strong now for 16 years. Maybe they figured if the Republicans call them ‘corrupt’ anyway they might as well BE corrupt and they have done that in spades. It is really is time to stop it the Clinton Foundation should be disbanded right away the whole ‘charity’ facade is just a scam. BTW the things they supposedly do like combat HIV/AIDS is a nonsense anyway (you may have immune failure in Africa but NOTHING to do with a harmless ‘virus’) and the other one they ‘combat’ is ‘climate change’……………how do they do that I wonder by flying here and there all over the world? Again of course not a squek about the real problem the aerosol war not a word. That would make too much sense better ‘combat’ things that don’t exist that way you can keep doing it forever and ever and get millions for speeches I mean bribes. I feel so disgusted with these people they are like a plague on this country.

    Even talking about ‘mannerisms’ I watched a whole Trump speech yesterday and I was struck by the guys energy like a good energy. He went to 4 different states yesterday and he is almost 70 that’s impressive even on that score. Hillary looks exhausted and ill and I do believe she has Parkinson’s disease and probably a few others also. She is very sick woman in both mind and body. Go Trump!

  90. Patrick says:

    A small thing to think about………….

  91. Patrick says:

    BTW I just want to make clear if I seem to take Guru’s side it is nothing beyond what I feel is right. He and I speak sometimes but have not in quite a while and as he makes very clear he is not necessarily on my ‘side’ about anything. But when it comes to Jack in many ways now I don’t care what he says about me I know the guy he has some good qualities and he is ‘smart’ in a way but he has and continues constantly to ‘critique’ me and ‘judge’ me (very unfeeling behavior if I might say so) but when I see him crapping on Guru I feel it is the right thing for me to tell him back the fuck off you are a twisted hateful old man Guru is a good guy and his sense of humor is well like…………..well Jack does not have a sense of humor or at least not that I see. So nobody need to think of Guru as my ‘ally’ ( a word Jack even used talk about a ‘military’ mindset) he is not my ‘ally’ nor me his. But I will call bullshit when I see it and Jack because he is such a self reported ‘primaller’ he gets away with too much.He is a kiss ass to the Establishment here and in that way I consider him worthless as far as any ‘critique’ that actually might have some ‘integrity’ to it. So have at me if you like numbers mean nothing to me and i am well aware of this kind of cowardly clinging together I see here all the time. Or about the election all the cowardly clinging together we saw and heard here about Trump’s ‘mannerisms’ just doing what they are told just swallowing the media crap. Dutiful little boys and girls and very easily manipulated.

    • Patrick says:

      A nice summary from “Russia Today” about all these Clinton lies about Russians. Just more lying

    • When Patrick came to the blog in 2012 or so I made the mistake of not disassociating myself from the seething animosity between Patrick and Jack as much as possible. If I say anything in Patrick’s favor then Jack hates me and I become a less advanced Primaller; if I say anything in Jack’s favor then Patrick hates me and subsequently a more advanced Primaller. A no-win situation I should have understood from the beginning.

      I would like to be a neutral Switzerland. That is all.

  92. Otto Codingian says:

    so i wake up writing a song in my head. a little change from the normal sense of doom. nothing has reallly changed. maybe the cat has gotten more stable. ” i wouldn’t want to (stoke? some other word) false hope in you”. some kind of lionel richie melody maybe, although i dont think i like lionel richie, this is a white boy melody, maybe backstreet boys, i progbably already heard this melody before. crisp october scorpio day in l.a. i am thinking maybe whejn this tune keeps going thru my head, of when z sat on my couch when i was about 25 and said her parents would give us her life insurance policy we could cash in, if we got married, then we could go to pt. and this is making me sad, because i had hope “when i was 25, now i feel like a old man hundred and 5”. makes me sad enough to cry. but i might be able to, if the song was on my ipod, but it doesnt really exist.

  93. Otto Codingian says:

    i really dont know who z 9is anymore. she in champaign, i am here with dog and cat. “just the 2 of us” that is kind of the tune genre i might be thinking. she can come back but i will never be happy with her again. she has so much need, that i fail to exist in her presence.

    • Sylvia says:

      Such deep thoughts, Otto, about your wife. No one wants to feel used, as you are feeling. I know with my mom I was seen as just someone who could do things for her, and not really as an individual person. I, myself have been guilty of this when my brother comes over I want him to do house projects for me. But I am learning because he has his own projects and not that much time to always help me, that there’s a lot I can do on my own. I’ve stop waiting for someone else–or Godot, as Jack here says. The internet is full of people showing how to do things and we are both surprised and happy when I’ve figured it out.
      Margaret, my 3 kittens at 6 mo. still occasionally suckle and knead on their blanket too. They seem to get such comfort and safety out of it.

  94. Margaret says:

    David, I relate to what you say about the extra responsibility of taking a pet.
    or I could say I did relate, as 12 years ago I said something very similar to Barry B, when I connsidered to take a cat again . I was afraid it would soon feel like to much etc.
    but once I did it was such an improvment of my life, it really brightened up every day. and now my two new cats do the same, bringing fun and affection into my life.
    now the difference might be I live in an apartment with a big outdoor terrace, and have put cat doors everywhere so they can run around as much as they like, except onto the street and to the neighbours.
    it is a decision you have to consider for yourself, with the pros and cons.
    but having a pet does not exclude at all also geting a partner, smiley.
    what you are working on with the guitar and synthesizer sounds creative , do you also write music or songs?

    • David says:

      Margaret, thanks for your feedback about pets, I am more seriously thinking about getting one.I notice you say you have two new cats. I was thinking also that if I get a kitten I should maybe get two so that it has kitten company and doesn’t miss it’s siblings so much. I imagine the way you get one is through a pet store or animal refuge centre, and that they would let you handle a kitten that you like for successive visits, so it can get used to you before you take it away. I’ll look into it.

      Yes, I’ve written songs and music, some of it pretty good too, but I haven’t managed to get anything actually finished in a long time. I find songwriting incredibly hard, it just takes it out of me on all levels. I have a particularly intense time with lyrics… I used to work as a furniture mover when I was in LA and for me it’s harder to sit down and write a song than it was to do a 10 hour move job. Having deadlines certainly helps. I did join a songwriting group for a couple of years and that helped for a while and was also a good way of getting into my local music scene. From there I joined a few bands. The last band I was in was incredibly good, writing all it’s own material, but I had to quit a year ago when I had a bad relapse in my health. It was very sad for me and very sad for them too, I understand it took them a long time to find a replacement for me. At the moment I am looking to get into doing remote guitar session work and maybe doing soundtracks. I read about a musician in a guitar magazine recently who makes good money this way. With improvements in recording technology it’s possible to record for other people all over the world from home. And it can provide me with some needed deadlines 🙂

  95. Otto Codingian says:

    this is beautiful. the settings on the washer remain the same, day after day, so i can wash my meager loads of laundry without too much thought, on my only full-day of not working at my job. the benefits of living alone. I wasn’t getting any sex or much of anything else from my partner 2 weeks ago, so this works ok. i have some thoughts on lizard brain, emergence of human speech, hairlessness of man, neanderthals, and more later. Or i may just post to my youtube account the recording video that i spoke as i walked around the fungus-strewn lake park this morning with the dog. i also took the cat for a short walk at the lake in one of those baby-stroller modifications that i had bought over a year ago for my dying dachshund otto. cat did not complain right away, so i took him home and fed him steak and eggs. i have to modify that uncomfortable stroller. mom and/or dad, i know you always love hearing from me. ouch, i don’t really believe in ghosts.

  96. Margaret says:

    Sylvia, o I did not know they are allowed to suckle occasionally for that long by the mommy cat.
    makes me feel bad for all those kittens taken away earlier, but at least it is not at 6 weeks anymore, or at 8, now it seems to be mostly between 10 and 14 weeks, and most kittens seem to be eager to go out into the wide world.
    my former cat felt completely at ease immediately upon arrival, very relaxed, happy and curious, immediately choosing my bed as her favourite giant personal pillow.
    my two cats now arrived together, being brothers from the same litter, and they also seemed excited with the new adventure. but still, I will try to find him a small personal comfort blanket for in case he needs to suckle, if he comes to me under my big blanket it might work to give him the smaller one which is easier to keep clean smiley.
    a cat pacifier..
    it only happens once a month or so so it is not a big issue really.
    what I like so much about cats is how they so visibly show they feel good, stretching and rolling on their backs and stretching some more, purring, and racing around and playing and coming for attention whenever they feel like it.
    and they are so very soft and beautiful, ha, I love them very much.

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, I think that beings I took away the kittens from their mom at six weeks (while I could still catch them,) they started artificially nursing the blanket and just continued on. When I used to give away barn cats, or mousers they were about 12 weeks old and could probably handle the separation better. When we kept a litter, when the mom gave birth to her next batch, the seven month old kittens who she weaned at 4 mo. would start nursing her again for a few times, to my surprise.
      This wild mom cat now has a wild son here about 1 1/2 yr. from her previous litter. She began hissing at him too after he was weaned, but when she came in heat they mated. That is when I knew at all costs to get her fixed. She is happy, I think, not to have a harsh life now. She still hisses at him, and hisses at the 3 kittens, and of course at me.
      These 3 kittens are so different from each other. One likes to stay in the yard. But the other two are running into the neighbor’s yards with dogs chasing and learning to climb fences in a hurry out. My nerves need a rest. They are sweet when they nap. Like you say, they do have a joy for life.

  97. Margaret says:

    Sylvia, I just remembered how shocked I was as a kid when the mommy cat at some point started hissing at her male kittens, chasing them away.
    I learned in the meantime that is a natural behavior to prevent incest.
    so maybe it is not too bad to take the kittens away before that happens, as I remember how puzzled and hurt they seemed to feel until they finally took off..

  98. Margaret says:

    Otto, I don’t really believe in ghosts either, but still it does help and feels good to occasionally ‘talk’with the deceased..
    you are such a good cat and dog daddy. they must be relieved the monster dog is out of the picture..
    not sure though if the cat really takes pleasure in being walked around away from his own territory.
    but then again, you know your cat of course and they are all different.
    he is lucky to have such an attentive caretaker,, and steak and gravy, smiley.
    best for all of you from us over here, me and cats

  99. Otto Codingian says:

    M, he seems to be bored so much that i think he enjoyed getting out of the house. i did not put him in his carrier, just in the front seat and he was not panicking at all. now the fluconazole has him tired out, which is a drag to see. Z called to see him via facetime. she is so unhappy staying with kid since he is not spending time doing things with her on the weekends like they did here. and she had lots of friends here. i told her the kid should pay her for taking care of the monster dog, otherwise if she leaves to come back here, the dog will be alone all day and howl and chew up the apartment house, unless he pays for an all-day pet sitter. Z has been home with that dog all day every day since the kid got the dog in 2006, since Z works at home, so the dog does not do well alone. chewed up the kid’s apartment here in l.a. and we had to bring the dog back to our house. There does not seem to be much to do in champaign, and Z loves her black cat and misses him greatly. the kid needs to lease a car for her to, he can afford it now. he has turned out to be a cheapskate, he was mad because a first date girl wouldn’t pay half of the date, and she did not want to see him again. that was a while back, hope he learns better. I dont think women like to pay for dinner, this is some biological imperative that many scientists and comedians theorize to be true.

  100. Otto Codingian says:

    yeah i dont believe in ghosts, i just wish i had been able to talk to parents when i was a kid. but they were dead, and grandma and aunts and uncles did not want to hear much out of me.

  101. Otto Codingian says:

    day tripper as sung by amy slattery has got me gut busting sobbing. but cat woke up feeling better and now wants me to go outside with him.

    • David says:

      Otto, it’s great that you are able to feel so much through music. Music can be a great facilitator of feelings, I know.

  102. Otto Codingian says:

    i wish i could break the fuck out of my deadness. i keep myself medicated with food. i should be up dancing to these lively tunes but i can barely tap my foot. damn.

  103. Phil says:

    I was doing some Spanish studying tonight on my computer and then after a while surfed over to Youtube with the idea of listening to some music in Spanish to help.
    Well I found a song which had me crying. Julio Iglesias “All the girls I loved before” The feeling I can identify a little better than usual was I loved my mother so much and needed so much from her; I would like to remember even one time when she said something nice to me, but I can’t. I did connect with a childhood scene of crying a little bit in my bedroom alone after my mother had passed away. Maybe I’ve continued to have some subconscious fantasy that she will re-appear by magic and say something nice to me to show she cares and remembers me, as in reality I can’t remember one such instance from my childhood.

  104. Phil says:

    Of course that particular song wasn’t even in Spanish so isn’t of much help in that respect. But here’s one I like in Spanish but can’t yet understand all the words:

  105. Phil says:

    that got mixed up, this was the song that brought up feelings by Julio Iglesias:

  106. Phil says:

    Sorry for the duplicate postings. This was pretty amazing for me tonight because my wife was doing paper work on the other side of the room and I was listening to the computer on headphones. I had to go alone to our bedroom to let this feeling come out. It might have worked even better if I was completely alone.

  107. Daniel says:

    To my American friends: Vote early and often.

    And since this one likes to have the final word lets indulge him:

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – that’s interesting I very much felt the same way…………..but I would suggest if you read the book “Clinton Cash” you probably would see things differently.To me it is a truly shocking book in the sheer DEPTH of the corruption and as a side issue the absolute betrayal of the USA.for private gain. “Nationalism” has got a bad name since WW2 (false history mostly) but after all these Government people are SUPPOSED to represent and protect the country.Hillary Clinton clearly on any level did not and I think there is an inchoate understanding of that and that’s what Trump’s support is all about. I think it speaks well of Trump to say all this and also it speaks well of him that he can CHANGE his mind. Something that primal THEORY advocates but seemingly hardly ever PRACTICES

      • I find it interesting that Patrick should be talking about ‘corruption’ by Hillary Clinton. As I see it, money in-and-of-itself is CORRUPTING. Patrick is guilty of the same practice when he was running his business. When I pointed it out to him, his defense was “Well!! every one does it”. Trump is seemingly more corrupt to have made his billions and when he is to is indited for his seemingly fake universities (and not paying taxes;) argues about the descendants of the Judge as not being qualified. Seemingly for Patrick, that goes for naught.

        Me thinks Hillary has some deep symbolism for Patrick, that he’s apparently is NOT willing to investigate: rather to just go on and on about the character of Primal people. Yet is eager to point out the hypocrisy of others.

        We are all, as I see it, susceptible to hypocrisy AND lies. Most of us had to lie as children to prevent the wrath of parents, then put our defensive skill to cover it all. It’s actually very hard to be totally honest. I know I do it; then to skew the truth seems to get locked in from those early days.


  108. Margaret says:

    reading your comment I just realized myself a tiny irrational part of me (wants to )belives in ‘ghosts’, or all the loved ones, including pets and horses etc., still being there, and still being able to hear what I want to say to them. and they are all calm and wise and understanding now, to terms with everything…

    it does not even matter much whether it is true or not, it simply feels like the best way to see it, and to tell them what still feels like important to tell them…

    my dad sometimes feels like he could be some guardian angel, but it is just some helpful feeling I do allow just very once in a while when I look for mental support in myself, it is kind of a mental construction I guess, but it does help.
    but I guess part of us does keep a glimpse of hope something of them does remain..

  109. Margaret says:

    Phil, that is so sad.
    good you get more in touch with this feeling of loving her, that sounds important.

    • Phil says:

      A lot of the feeling was about having needed and wanted my mother in ways she seems not to have fulfilled.
      In Spanish love is commonly expressed with the verb querer which means “to want”. So literally to say I love you is “te quiero” (I want you). In all other instances querer is translated as “to want” the same as in English, as far as I have learned
      Is badly wanting and needing someone the same as loving them? Maybe so, or maybe words can’t quite always exactly express feelings.

  110. Margaret says:

    David, you sound inventive to find other ways to be able to keep working with your musical skills.
    wish you all kinds of fun, satisfaction and success!
    what I did to find my cats was to ask around and very soon finding different ladies who give shelter to stray cats and they often have litters who all seek a good home.
    my vet told me two cats from the same litter get along much better than two other cats, and I must say my little brothers are a delight to watch when playing or napping together.
    as they are white with dark spots they look like a yin yang sign when cuddling up together.
    there are plenty of cats around seeking a home, and if you want an affectionate sociable cat make sure the kitttens are socialized from a young age on, regularly picked up and petted . and you are right, I did go several times to look at the litters and to hold all the different kittens.
    it was tough to choose between them as they are all adorable, but one adventurous one picked my attention and then his tiny brother who seemed a bit more weak, but who fell asleep in the palm of my hand made my heart melt and made me want to provide a home for the little guy as well.
    now it is funny that although he indeed turned out to have a starting pneumonia back then, he now is a lot bigger than his formerly stronger brother, he is big and strong and his brother is slender and very fast.
    they love to chase each other and playfight, and I noticed how much better it is for them to have a playmate as when they are young they play so much you can never do the same as a person. they are each others number ones but I am very pleased with my warm number two spot!
    if you can provide cat doors, it would be nice, as theyy do not like closed doors!
    not into the stairway of course, but inside your appartment might be useful, otherwise you might have to leave your doors open all the time, smiley.
    ha, the slender one just jumped right over my keyboard, one certain way to get attention.
    they learned not to walk over it thank heavens!

    • David says:

      Thanks for the good wishes! What you say makes me more partial to two rather than one kitten. There is a door from my living room to the back garden that I could put a cat flap in , but I would need to get that cleared with my landlord. But I believe there are panels for doors with cat flaps in them that can be swapped in and out, so I don’t think it should be too much of an issue. I do wonder how draughty (sp?) that could be though, particularly in the winter. I pretty much live in my living room; I eat, practice, teach and relax there. Also I wonder how my students would take to having cats scurrying around their feet during lessons, and I certainly couldn’t keep them locked up in my kitchen all day. The cats that is, not my students. So there’s a few things to still consider.

      How are your studies going?

  111. After sitting for one of my buddies last night, I too went into some deep feelings of terror. They lasted for only a few seconds and came out like a sort of convultion. I sat with it all, actually I had little choice, it all came up fast and furious. I know I have gotten nowhere near enough to resolve any of this, but I have a sense that I know where it all started. In the womb.

    It’s so difficult to get totally into it and it is totally without words. It’s almost impossible to discribe it all.

    I did finally fall asleep and woke later feeling much better. How this seems like a lifetime endeavor I am readilly aware of. Just thought to mention it here on this blog. That aslo is very therapeutic for me.


    • Larry says:

      Wow. That sounds like a breakthrough.

      • Larry: I have had these feelings before, but they are very elusive. I suspect in this case after sitting for my buddy is what precitated them. What is worrisome is that I don’t quite get to the bottom of them. However, I am able to accept what comes up … sit with it … and see where it takes me.

        There is one problem and that is if it were to lead to a scream, I feel my Jimbo would re-act in a way that I would not find helpful, and that he’d be more concerned in trying to take me out of it for the sake of not disturbing neighbors. Should it go there I would try putting a pillow over my head in the hope of quelling the sound.

        BUT thanks for your response Larry.


  112. Margaret says:

    the cat doors have some magnetic strip so they do not get blown open by the wind or something.
    they also have an extra panel to close them off if necessary, say you have an allergic pupil, but most cats prefer to stay away from visitors, specially when they make sounds that keep them awake, smiley.
    am getting close to philosophy exam, last stretch, and just got some files for the next course of literature study, we have to do research and then make a new plan for more research , our topic is motivation and performance, and we might do it around learning disabilities or addiction.
    I prefer the last, but the file I just got, mentions all kind of motivations, also feelings of need for love etc., so I already am geting inspired to design further research questions to finish with.
    but the whole idea is doing an elaborate literature s
    research, with research questins, a whole review of the steps taken, summaries and evaluations of findings, lists of references etc., and the research plan in the end is just a design, pro forma.
    we do it in pairs of students , i do it with a very smart woman, but she is also perfectionist, and already stressing, smiley.
    it will be difficult, and hard work, but it is good to already get starting while finishing the work leading up to the philosophy exam.
    I have a tight deadline for the literature thing, so it is reassuring she is already working on it.
    nice to hear your cats will be able or would be able to go into a garden.
    you might have to wait until spring, start of summer for a good healthy litter though. spring kittens are the strongest.

    • David says:

      All this info on cats is new to me, thanks. And it sounds like sound advice. I’ll weigh it all up and see about getting a couple of kittens in the spring like you say. Glad to hear that your studies are going well. It sounds like you’re taking it in your stride and not getting too stressed, I wish you well with it all.

  113. Otto Codingian says:

    Here is a good video explaining how changes, ice-age or whatever, affected mankind. Stories from the stone age First Farmers pt.1. i did not know this stuff.

  114. Phil says:

    It’s looking like Hillary Clinton will win. She will win in Florida because of a surge of early voting by Hispanics, Nevada also. Trump has basically no chance without Florida.
    I am predicting, based on what I’ve been seeing that Clinton will end up with about 320 electoral votes.

  115. Margaret says:

    Phil, yes, I realized myself right after writing that comment to you you had not only mentioned the love but also the need.
    and I think the Spanish have a good point that there is always an aspect of querer in loving.
    and I do hope you are right with your prediction about the voting!!
    David, thanks, smiley. p.s my halfsister has a young bird now, a kakariki, originally from New Zealand but bred here in Belgium.
    it is a very social kind of bird, loves people and is always out of his cage, running around, climbing on shoulders, playing and sitting on your head or on your hand.
    they are in between a parakeet and a parrot, I think they are the birds that destroy the rubber linings of car windows etc. in New Zealand.
    they can fly, but obviously prefer to run around and climb, they are very pleasant and don’t make too much noise. maybe also an idea as a pet?
    not to be combined with the cats though, smiley

    • David says:

      Thanks for the additional suggestion but I’m going to pass on the kakariki. I prefer fur to feather in my pets 🙂 and if it doesn’t mix with cats then definitely not as the cats will be there first.

  116. Margaret says:

    David, cats would certainly welcome a kakariki, smiley. an exotic snack so to say..

  117. Sylvia says:

    Phil, I hope you are right. It gives me shivers to think the election could go the other way.
    Margaret, I thought I would tell you that my three-fourths-grown kittens love to play in boxes with the four top flaps still attached. No matter the size, as long as one can fit in they will dive in and make the biggest racket. They like it better, even, if there’s packaging paper inside to shred. Maybe they think they are going back to the womb; they are always looking for dark spaces to crawl into.
    Everyone have a good day.

  118. Larry says:

    The past weekend was a game changer for me. The week before, I had printed three of my recent digital images of landscapes I photographed, had them matted, and on Friday afternoon I entered them into an Art Show fundraiser at the church. I tell you, those of us there exhibiting our work to the public for the first time felt naked and that people were going to point and laugh to tears at our inadequacy. Anyway, ignoring my self-doubts I did my two hours of volunteer stint at the reception desk, then enjoyed mingling and and conversing with the assembled curious and interested appreciators of art, and I took in the art of the other participants. By the end of the evening I bought one of theirs. And to my surprise someone bought one of mine, banishing the inadequacy-feeling monkey on my back with the dawning understanding that a stranger actually valued my photographic effort. I felt happy and light hearted with the realization.

    The Art Show continued on Saturday afternoon until 5 pm. I spent most of Saturday in volunteer hospice training. The following Sunday would be our last day of training, totaling 30 hours over the previous 2 and the current weekend. As training began on Saturday morning, the ladies (my volunteer colleagues) asked me to bring one of my prints the next day for them to see.

    When training for the day was over on Saturday afternoon, I went to church to help dismantle the Art Show and help clean up, the Show being over. When I got there I discovered again to my happy surprise that a second print of mine had been sold. The purchaser was a young married photographer and mother, and one of the exhibitors in the show. She walked over to tell me she bought my print for herself for her birthday. I felt happy and humbled by the discovery of how much she valued it and how pleased she was to have it. We had a nice conversation, about the print and my experience of photographing the image, and about each other’s interest in photography.

    On the way home for the evening with the third and unsold print, I bought a frame and at home mounted the print in it. I liked the whole a lot. I found just the right place on just the right wall to hang it. It looked good. It warmed up the ambience in my home. But before hanging it, I decided to follow through and actually bring it to the Sunday last day of training, as the ladies had asked. I felt silly though to be actually bringing it, silly to think any of the ladies a day later really would be still interested to see it.

    When I walked into the training room on Sunday morning, with my print, a lot of the ladies were already present and engaged in animated conversation. I didn’t want to draw attention to myself. I quietly walked to a table and unwrapped the framed print with the intent to just quietly leave it there. But a couple of ladies gathered round and exclaimed admiration for it. Then more came to look at it and expressed interest in it.

    Training ended at 4 pm. All thirteen of us graduated. I was the only guy in the class. It required some courage for me to hang in there in an otherwise all female group, ranging in age from mid-twenties to late sixties. It took courage for all of us to hang in there through the training. What we all had in common was a feeling of wanting to give, wanting to help the terminally ill to live a quality life until the end. As much as I wanted to give the hospice volunteering a try, I had doubts all along that I could do this. Graduating from the training felt like breaking through a barrier of fear and testing the water, following the inkling of a passion that might shape some meaning and purpose in my retirement. As well, my classmates were interesting, wholesome people, at least some of who I hope I grow enduring connection with.

    After graduation we socialized in the training room for a while. Some of the ladies’ husbands arrived to join in the celebration. There was a big chocolate cake for everyone. A classmate, a young mother in her mid-twenties, approached and asked me whether I would sell the framed print that I had brought. She apologized that she in no way wanted me to feel pressure to sell, but would I consider it. I assured her I would be gratified to sell it to her. She wanted it for a Christmas present for her Dad who loved the outdoors, and who was newly bereaved. She paid me more than I asked for it, telling me it was worth even more than that. She asked me to sign it. We talked at length, finding more about who each other is. It was such a surprising and interesting exchange, and so validating form me as an amateur landscape photographer to have sold all three of my prints, and to see how pleased the buyers were to have them. I feel that this weekend my passion for photography has been nurtured and will surely be an activity of meaning and purpose filling some of my retirement.

    But…the accomplishments of the past weekend, showing me a path into retirement, hurt. Where is love and closeness in my life? If I dare look, my life is devoid of tender connection, empty of someone to care for and care for me. I’m alone. I need to love and be loved. Why is it so empty? Why was it so much of the time when I was young and needed it most? I cry. I feel the need. I feel the void. And finally I cry with gratitude that Gretchen devoted her working life to helping us, and I cry to really see how badly my parents botched my life.

    • Leslie says:

      Congratulations Larry! As hard as it all is for you – you do go forward. Awesome that you get to feel the rewards of your explorations in art & socializing!
      ox L

    • David says:

      Larry, I remember you saying on here a while ago that you didn’t think you photography was good enough to share. So something has clearly shifted?! It’s great that you’re getting your art out there. And you made a sale! That’s awesome!!

  119. Sylvia says:

    Larry, it sounds like your decision to take a chance in showing your photographs paid off. Something ventured, something gained. The work of the hospice you will be doing is selfless and I’m sure will be appreciated by those enduring a difficult stage. It’s been several years ago, but I know my uncle and his wife found comfort with the hospice workers that visited them in his last few months.
    Lots of feeling for you going on; you’re brave to feel them.

  120. This is going to be glorious and magnificent time to be a wall construction contractor. We’ll build a wall to keep the Mexicans out of the USA’s southern border, and the Canadians will have to build a border wall of their own to keep from having overwhelming numbers of US refugees fearful of President Trump from crossing the northern US border.

  121. Patrick says:

    Quoting myself (again) on Sunday

    “I start to think/hope Trump will win it seems he may well take Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, even Minnesota or at least a few of those. If he does he should make it but I dunno it’s a toss up I think and the disgustingly biased media here may still pull her over the line (literally as she is very ill).”

    I will await for Jack and really pretty much all the rest here to at least concede I tend to know what I am talking about at least in certain matters. But I imagine I would be waiting a long time. Still I am kind of ‘proud’ of that watching the TV tonight it seems very few people ‘called’ it like this Y’all might extend this to a lot of other stuff I talk about again not that I expect that. So you might think to yourself and this includes Gretchen all this crap you throw on me…………… seems I might know quite a bit more than people give me credit for. It’s easy to throw buzz words around like ‘hate’ ‘bigotry’ ‘xenophobia’ and God help us even ‘anti semitism’ but it takes a bit more work to ‘understand’ ………………I know I have done the “work’

    But I should not gloat too much if Hillary had won I would have put it all down to ‘media brainwashing’ anyway I am glad not to have to be dealing with that

    • Patrick: I will admit I was as shocked at the election outcome as much as many people (assuming the Trump lead holds). I have a feeling we’re going into dangerous and uncharted waters as a nation, though. Since I was predicting a Clinton win, I am not going to dare make further predictions beyond this point.

    • David says:

      So you’re now part of the establishment Patrick. I’m assuming you voted for Trump. I imagine this might lead to something of an identity crisis for you.

      • Patrick says:

        David – you have a point there and I can almost feel it already happening! Please remember though I was stronger in what I was AGAINST (the Clinton crime family) than what I was FOR (the Trump sales family maybe)

  122. Michael Moore is one of the most famously outspoken liberals in the US. Back in June, he also said Trump was going to win this election. I thought he was nuts when he said that.

    In case any of the shocked Hillary supporters here are wondering why and how her loss could happen, Mr, Moore did an INGENIOUS analysis of what was going on. It’s scary how accurate Mr. Moore turned out to be. He perfectly called the 4 key battleground states which were going to pull through for Trump and surprise everyone else (Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin).

    Please note Mr. Moore was strongly against Trump. He’s just analyzing the cold facts here:

    “I believe Trump is going to focus much of his attention on the four blue states in the rustbelt of the upper Great Lakes – Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Four traditionally Democratic states – but each of them have elected a Republican governor since 2010 (only Pennsylvania has now finally elected a Democrat). In the Michigan primary in March, more Michiganders came out to vote for the Republicans (1.32 million) that the Democrats (1.19 million). Trump is ahead of Hillary in the latest polls in Pennsylvania and tied with her in Ohio. Tied? How can the race be this close after everything Trump has said and done? Well maybe it’s because he’s said (correctly) that the Clintons’ support of NAFTA helped to destroy the industrial states of the Upper Midwest. Trump is going to hammer Clinton on this and her support of TPP and other trade policies that have royally screwed the people of these four states. When Trump stood in the shadow of a Ford Motor factory during the Michigan primary, he threatened the corporation that if they did indeed go ahead with their planned closure of that factory and move it to Mexico, he would slap a 35% tariff on any Mexican-built cars shipped back to the United States. It was sweet, sweet music to the ears of the working class of Michigan, and when he tossed in his threat to Apple that he would force them to stop making their iPhones in China and build them here in America, well, hearts swooned and Trump walked away with a big victory that should have gone to the governor next-door, John Kasich.
    From Green Bay to Pittsburgh, this, my friends, is the middle of England – broken, depressed, struggling, the smokestacks strewn across the countryside with the carcass of what we use to call the Middle Class. Angry, embittered working (and nonworking) people who were lied to by the trickle-down of Reagan and abandoned by Democrats who still try to talk a good line but are really just looking forward to rub one out with a lobbyist from Goldman Sachs who’ll write them nice big check before leaving the room. What happened in the UK with Brexit is going to happen here. Elmer Gantry shows up looking like Boris Johnson and just says whatever shit he can make up to convince the masses that this is their chance! To stick to ALL of them, all who wrecked their American Dream! And now The Outsider, Donald Trump, has arrived to clean house! You don’t have to agree with him! You don’t even have to like him! He is your personal Molotov cocktail to throw right into the center of the bastards who did this to you! SEND A MESSAGE! TRUMP IS YOUR MESSENGER!
    And this is where the math comes in. In 2012, Mitt Romney lost by 64 electoral votes. Add up the electoral votes cast by Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. It’s 64. All Trump needs to do to win is to carry, as he’s expected to do, the swath of traditional red states from Idaho to Georgia (states that’ll never vote for Hillary Clinton), and then he just needs these four rust belt states. He doesn’t need Florida. He doesn’t need Colorado or Virginia. Just Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. And that will put him over the top. This is how it will happen in November.”

    LINK (to more reasons explaining Trump’s win):

    My hat’s off to the guy. He called it perfectly even though he hated to see it happen.


      On top of his extraordinarily accurate predictions, Mr. Moore also said Trump will be the last President of the US.


    • Patrick says:

      Guru – that’s great and everything but please don’t forget \I kind of said the same thing (if shorter) Looking for ‘credit’ here I get so little of it and that starts all the way from the top. You could read about a month ago where I showed all the valid reasons for Trump’s appeal but it was ‘deleted’ by Gretchen. (because somewhere a connection between her favorite people and 9/11) This is a real gripe for me I don’t just write to say stupid shit I reasonably consider what I have to say and to just get blanked like that. Not cool and I do not like it

      • Patrick says:

        To use the jargon I have a bit of a feeling going about this. Like primallers would ooh and aah about someone else and me though I am really coming to the same conclusion as Michael Moore is some kind of idiot. That of course comes from the top also with good little soldier Jack always around to enforce orthodoxy and then all the followers………..Leslie et al and all the people ‘driven off the blog’ but who travel 6000 miles every year to ‘have their feelings’

  123. Sylvia says:

    Guru, I saw that Michael Moore piece last week; such a clever fellow he is. I think the polls got it wrong because they were not counting the ‘undecided.’ But many of the undecided were really Grump, I mean trump supporters, they were just embarrassed to say.

  124. Margaret says:

    yes, cardboard boxes, and also these big paper shpping bags, I specially bring them back home with me from American supermarkets. but I always cut the handles first so they can’t strangle themselves in them while playing.
    I noticed they are alt least as much fun as the boxes, but more rapidly end in shreds, smiley.
    and have been watching your elections at 2 a.m. and then Clinton was still optimistic, but now 7 a.m. my time, she is close to having accept possible defeat.
    worrying indeed. sigh, M

  125. Phil says:

    I am shocked. Pollsters and opinion makers got it very wrong including conservative ones. The only one close was Nate Silver’s “538” website which had a probability of only about 65 to 70%. for Clinton to win. All the rest had her probability of winning above 90%. Her own pollsters got it wrong.
    It is going to be an interesting 4 years. My first thought: Is there some way we can keep Obama?

    • David says:

      Make him king?! I notice I’m not as shocked or saddened as I was after the Brexit vote because it is not my country, but I can understand how you feel. It’s very disappointing.

  126. Daniel says:

    I’m not an american and had no idea who will win the US elections, but I was hoping it’ll be HRC. America isn’t just any country, if it goes dark the world will follow. That is why I truly wish Trump will succeed and understand the enormity of his responsibility. An already fragile world doesn’t need a huge dose of uncertainty and extremism, and I hope his last speech after he won will serve him as a guidepost rather than his terrible and dangerous campaign rhetoric.

    I’m not sure why you’re so happy with these elections results, Patrick; with the exception of propensity for conspiracy theories and a reckless hate for all state institutions the man and his team oppose almost everything you humanly stand for, at least as expressed here on the blog.

    Yeats says it better:

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  127. David says:

    “May you live in interesting times.”
    – Ancient Chinese curse

  128. Patrick says:

    This is what Jon Rappoport writes. I am already predicting the ‘movement’ will be largely betrayed though I hope I am wrong. His cabinet is likely to include Newt Gingrich, Chris Christie etc etc so quite likely to be the same old same old. But I consider Clinton such a danger and disaster that he is still preferable. Pretty poor options

    “Trump wins.

    And now, without pause, it’s time to hold his feet to the fire.

    Because the people who voted for him expect action to:

    Turn back the grotesque job-sucking Globalist trade treaties.

    Secure the borders against a migrant wave (Globalist op) that has been destabilizing the country. Vet potential terrorists.

    Bring back jobs.

    Prosecute Hillary Clinton and the Clinton Foundation and thereby drive a stake through the hearts of the dynamic duo of corruption.

    Keep torpedoing the sold-out media.

    Refrain from making any “bridge-building moves” that turn into bad compromises.

    ****Especially refrain from appointing Washington insiders to important posts—this is where Trump could really go off the rails.

    The victory, as I’ve kept saying on radio interviews, is about the MOVEMENT that has coalesced around Trump. The people who are waking up to the scourge of Globalism and its agenda for destruction. THAT is what must stay alive. The movement.

  129. Margaret says:

    over here the only party that was pleased with this election was the most marginal ultra right party..

  130. Sylvia says:

    Thank you, Margaret, for the shopping bag idea. Now more than ever is a time over here to hold our dear little ones for comfort and enjoy the small things in life. A time to know what is important and feed each other the care we all deserve. A little brain aneurysm thrown the trump tower way wouldn’t hurt. Just kibitzing.

  131. Margaret says:

    haha, and when the paper bag is losing its shape and becoming flat, it still offers a lot of possibilities.
    my former cat used to be sitting on it and then to be dragged around like on a sledge, in faster and faster circles, she would get so excited she would get off every now and then to race a few rounds around the room and then jump back on the bag for another ride!
    I would also lift her up with the bag, making sure I got a tight grip on it, and then rock her and move her up and down and around, like in an attraction park, making accompanying sounds. that too she would really love!
    also it is funny when the cat is inside, and you softly scratch the bottom of the bag,they are very silent, and then all of a sudden leap towards the sound, with a lot of crackling and invariably it remains startling, although you know it is coming, and it always made me chuckle and laugh out loud.
    now with two cats one is usually inside the bag and the other one tends to jump on top of it, probably raising the adrenaline for the one inside to exciting levels.
    hope you and the furry ones have lots of fun with these cheap and recyclable toys, which seem to work very well with every cat!
    throwing a little ball or toy mouse into the bag when they start losing their interest a little bit works very well too..

  132. Sylvia says:

    Margaret, they thank you, they are already playing in them. The more rambunctious one is ripping the top off the bag that the Siamese is in. Boys still play rough though they are ‘fixed.’ My neighbor said she will come over today to visit them as she has from time to time. It was her yard they were born in and when I went over to look at them at 2 weeks the mom cat moved them to under my shed. So we both have an interest and love cats.
    You enjoy your kittens too.

  133. It’s a sad day for the Divided States of American as one newspaper characterized it. If Trump keeps to his promises; to build the wall, repeal Obama care, imprison any woman who has an abortion, attempts to lock up Hillary, overturn gay marriage, and run the presidency the same way he ran his busuness … then I feel the days of the US are over. Empires come and go.

    Patrick may feel his research into matter out there in the ether is vindicated, BUT has failed miserably to investigate his inner self … which is the purtpose of this blog … which eludes him.

    My feeling is he is not a citizen, but like me a green card holder. BUT of that I cannot be certain. What is terribly sad for him is that he was never able to get a romantic parner, and time is running out. As Calvin (of Hobbs) said:- “Life’s short … go naked” meaning perhaps, the naked inner self.

    Just as the UK went Brexit: it’s not over yet … and perhaps this election and it’s aftermath is not over yet either. There could be any number of after effect … of unintended consiquences.


  134. As a follow up on one of my previous comments about my fear convultions. I had a dream last night that I feel is a direct follow-on from it. I was dreaming that there were about 5 guys trying to kill me and I was managing to fend them off one by one, but the whole dream was very frightening. I was afraid for my dear life.

    I cannot be 100% certain, but the reality is the fetus me had to fight for my very life.. It was so tight in there like I was in some sack and all colors were red.

    My mother did tell me in my youth that her father committed suicide while she was 5 months pregnant with me, BUT she refused to grieve her fathers death; whom she adored … because of the baby inside her … me.

    Not sure just how much of this I still need to feel. It’s very frightening and disconcerting.


    • errona says:

      so sad, Jack, and must be terrifying for you. And your mum, god how awful. Thinking (and feeling) of you…


    • Patrick says:

      I guess all this trumped up ‘sensitivity’ is meant to balance our all your nastiness. How could such a ‘womber’ be a nasty hateful sob……………well we are left with the fact you are. Sumtin wong………….

      • quote:- “Talk to the people of Libya or Syria and try to get out of your own way.”.

        Since when where to talking to Libyans and Syrians. From my understanding you never went further than county Kerry in Ireland. Oh! and yes your bother up in Yorkshire. How come you are so full of knowledge and wisdom???? I don’t see any sign of it and I suspect no-one else does either.


        P.S. What would you know about womb life. I even doubt you even ever got your penis near there.


  135. Leslie says:

    Today is a sad day for many of us in Canada. Shocking and sickening to see that a racist, sexist, violent inducing angry boor can be rewarded with the title of President of the U.S. Thankfully the radio hosts I listened to today , and the co-workers, neighbours, friends & family I talked with feel the same way.
    It helps a little…

    • Leslie: There’s a lot of analysing of why it all went wrong today, especially of polsters. I don’t think anything went wrong. This is who the majority of Americans are, especially in the mid west. They are just as bigoted, misoginsts, racists and xenophobic, homophobic as Donald Trump … and (dare I say it) one in our midst) They found their man.

      Let’s see how well he can govern. I doubt, for all the acceptance speach, the ‘leopard will change it’s spots’. It all upsets me since I came here for something differnt.

      I for one am considering a quicker than planned exit.


      • Tim Gordon says:

        Be careful there Jack. Generalizing like that is the very sort of dodgy thing that Donald would do. I would expect a large number of people who don’t actually know gays might tend to appear homophobic, but didn’t you know that 37 states had gay marriage, even before the Supreme Court ruling? And, I may be wrong, but I haven’t actual heard Trump saying anything anti-gay.
        Now, I didn’t vote for DT, and I do find him scary, but he somehow struck a nerve with many voters who feel that those in government don’t give a damn about them. And there are many who don’t understand why so many millions of people can enter the country illegally, and then have the right to stay. There is a certain logic to that position. It doesn’t have to be racist.
        I’m never sure about the meaning of the word “bigot”. So I looked it up. The definition given was “someone who is intolerant of people with different viewpoints”. Hmm.

        • Tim: I am not sure how much or, how often you read this blog; though I am aware that sometime back you did add your voice. If you have indeed been following this blog I do wonder that you have NOT spoken out about some of the remarks made by your buddy Patrick. I suspect I know why … but that’s another story. Me suspect you are about the only friend he still has and confides in.

          So what exactly are you suggesting that I, Jack, should be very careful … and WHY?????? Don’t you sometimes generalize, and what is so terrible about generalizations????

          Try reading some of his campaign rhetoric. Patrick seems to think he’s a more honest person than Hillary, but then Patrick ‘gets his knickers in a truss’ about so many issues that he writes about on the blog here and he ain’t, as I see it, very popular among the bloggers here.

          I would be interesting if you were to contribute a little more to the blog and let us know how you have fared with your therapy; that’s assuming you would like to. Meantime good luck with your business and your family up there in Lancaster … assuming you are still in that ‘nick of the woods’


          • Patrick says:

            “Me suspect you are about the only friend he still has and confides in. You are a true fool and an idiot. You have NO idea (and what’s new about that) what you are talking about here. For a ‘womber’ not impressive at all. I would even say you are a great ‘ad’ for the more or less total FAILURE( that’s right you ARE a failure) no matter how invested in your belief in the opposite. I used to call you “Keeper of the Crypt” and then “PR man” I think I will now move to “Womb man” so let’s see what does Womb Man think I am sure you will have a comeback you total degenerate………………get back to the womb and report back to us………….come to think of it DON’T…………..

          • Tim Gordon says:

            Yes, Patrick has been a very good friend of mine for years, even though this year we have had less to do with each other. If I have a disagreement with him – and there are many things we agree about and many we disagree about – I will tell him directly, not via some public forum. People here seem quite articulate enough in standing to him without needing my protection.
            You are right; we all generalize. One thing I learnt from NLP was that without generalizations we would never be able to make sense of the world. The most used example being doorknobs; every time we come to a door we use the generalization that most doors have a doorknob (or handle) to open them. Or that an animal with bared teeth is a threat to us. I’m sure you understand the idea.
            But you know too how easy it is to make sweeping generalized statements about other people that don’t really illuminate a subject. I do it myself, and when I’m called on it I usually have to admit to being driven more by unreasoning emotion rather than anything else.
            As for how I fared with this therapy, perhaps i will leaver that for another day.

            • Patrick says:

              I like that “not via some public forum”………….that’s the kind of respect I can respect NOT the exhibitionism and narcissism of Womb Man or is it Yes Man

              • Tim Gordon says:

                Patrick, as I told you over the phone, I want to dissociate myself from your use of the word “respect” just after having hurled the word “bitch” at someone else.

    • Patrick says:

      So much name calling so little understanding or knowledge. Talk to the people of Libya or Syria and try to get out of your own way. You won’t of course

  136. Hey Tim, You have made some really interesting points but I do think there is much evidence to the contrary. He said he would be considering appointing judges to repeal marriage equality and his running mate has suggested federal dollars for conversion therapy . As far as racism well, he has had several lawsuits for discrimination against blacks who tried to rent in his buildings not to mention the supposed wall around Mexico debacle . He also is being sued as we speak by those who attended his University where he commented he did not believe he could get a fair trial as the Judge in that case is Mexican. Perhaps one of the saddest situations were his comments about the Muslim couple who had recently lost a son in the armed forces. You can look that one up but in addition he called for a Muslim database and a ” total and complete shutdown of Muslims” comparing that stance to the internment of Japanese Americans. Lastly he finished of by saying Syrian refugees can forget about coming here because ” it would be a way of allowing terrorists into the country”. Oh and one more thing after the attack on the gay nightclub he tweeted ” I appreciate the congrats for being right on Islamic terrorism”. You are obviously correct however that he has appealed to a certain demographic. People are entitled to their opinions in the end. Gretch

    • Tim Gordon says:

      My concern was more for the condemnation of most of America. It is glib to generalize about people we don’t know and have never met just because of how they voted.

      • Tim: just another response. I don’t think it is out of order to judge people by what they say, especially in public, and how they behave. My take is that the whole psychological profession in involved in just this aspect of people and their patients. That Trump was able to get so many votes, though not the popular vote, Does suggest some generalization of why. I did not feel I was condemning them, but if that’s your feeling I can accept it.


  137. Phil says:

    I am still recovering from the election results. It is so, so discouraging. I had been following the run up to the election very closely, probably too closely, but it was of interest to me. It is still interesting to see what will happen, but I’m seeing how I became emotionally invested in the whole thing. I know there’s some old feelings in all of this as well. In my family politics was always something discussed, while personal and family issues were usually ignored.
    I have strong opinions and beliefs possibly as a consequence. Probably because of so much attention given to this type of thing in my family. I am just feeling quite discouraged, frustrated, angry and sad about what happened on election day. It just should not have turned out that way.

    • Larry says:

      I think it’s normal and healthy to be emotionally invested in our lives and our futures, Phil. As of yesterday I’m a lot more concerned about everyone’s future. I worry that there will be a lot of Neanderthal thinking and decisions coming down the pipe. Seems to me like dark times are ahead. I hope it doesn’t turn out as bad as I feel it will, but singling out just one issue, that DT doesn’t “believe” in climate change I think spells big big trouble for generations to come.

    • I remember when I was a little kid in elementary school rooting for the re-election of Jimmy Carter and how disappointed I was when Ronald Reagan took office. I know myself well enough to understand I’ve had instinctual Democratic leanings since time immemorial.

      From my own little niche standpoint, our nation is in deep shit enough as it is with 600,000 people killed in their cars since 9/11 (not to mention 200,000 more killed during the five years it took bin Laden to plan the attacks). With all that bloodletting going on in our home soil we certainly don’t have time to feed Trump’s ego-driven xenophobic fantasies.

      I am but one of many disgruntled liberals out there, but I have to be a raw, mean, selfish conservative because I know most people aren’t going to give a damn what my fate is.

      I’m guessing in about a year those Rust Belt Trump voters will finally realize what a stupid mistake they made voting for him.

      Time will tell.

    • I too feel much the same as you do. In my family, daddy usually dominated the conversation and was adamant about the evils of communism. He was great fan of Margaret Thatcher who’s similar rhetoric stated she would put the “Great back in Britain” My take was that Britain was never great.

      Little wonder she went the way of Ronal Reagan … demented.

      The Trump rhetoric about making America great again and Hillary’s. counter that america was always great. I am tempted to agree with Bob Avakian that America was never great. That’s all part of the great American ‘brain wash’ or propaganda.


    • Sylvia says:

      Me too, Phil. My family was always interested in politics and I remember campaigning in grade school for Nixon against Kennedy, (what a mistake.) I’m still recovering from Tues. too. All the delicate things about foreign policy that is so important. The supreme court appointees. Health care. It does rock one’s secure feeling not knowing how things will happen now.
      Today the some foreign leaders were saying they have to show DT the protocol of things because he knows nothing.
      There are so many issues and things he wants to do domestically to undo Obama’s work. And politically overseas with the Iraq war against Isis, the Afghanistan war, Syrian crises, he’s going to be overloaded. It is hoped that he takes the advice of past presidents as Kennedy did with Eisenhower. I hope he listens. I think the presidency is going to be therapy for him and give him a nervous breakdown. He will probably say ‘what did I get myself into.’

      • With an ego as mind-bogglingly massive as Trump’s, I’m having a hard time imagining him having the remotest hint of any emotional breakdown.

        Sure, one can hope that he might have a breakdown and “see the light” or that maybe he won’t be able to stay in office for four years, but I have my doubts.

        The presidency is the ultimate ego power trip for him. Bar none. He’s the Supreme Ruler of the Free World for four years now. That’s 1,440 days and nights.

      • Patrick says:

        I really don’t get this at all ‘foreign policy’ in Clinton’s and Obamas hands was literal destruction of whole countries Libya was like Hillary’s own war a totally unprovked and illegal destruction of a peaceful and prosperous country. Syria the same deal. Disgusting war mongers. Trump says he will talk to Putin as he should and I sincerely hope he makes nice with Russia the real hope of the world over there and then pardons Julian Assange totally. Assange deserves the MOST credit for the defeat of the ‘wicked witch’. Assange is truly a hero imo it was his ‘leaks’ which did this war monger corrupt sick woman in. My opinion here is y’;all might pull your heads out of you know where and read and think and understand a bit more than you do. Which should not be hard as you seem to know NOTHING. Doesn’t the fact that all the media were so ‘wrong’ tell you something that’s because they ARE wrong Huffington Post,Cuardian, NY Times ALL of them TV stations the same. You are living in a sea of lies get over it watch Russia Today if you want to get a clue . It’s pretty disappointing ‘primal people’ are so clueless worse even than the ‘average person’ The ‘average person’ at least voted more for Trump. Like I said pull your heads out and for Jack that should be second nature as he seems to ……….I better stop there.

        Stop being such stupid SHEEP, or sheeple whatever. There is whole world out there to understand but maybe that’s being ‘in my head’ per the worst deplorable here…………

        • Phil says:

          It seems you have focused almost entirely on foreign policy in your preference for Trump. Israel is is quite happy about Trump so that doesn’t seem to correlate with your views in that area.
          I don’t think that Trump’s foreign policy statements were what got him elected and he’s been all over the place with that. I’ve thought that Obama has been a large improvement over Bush in foreign affairs, but Libya for example, was a big mistake.
          Trump doesn’t seem to believe in climate change, has talked loosely about the use of nuclear weapons and traditional alliances. Russia is an aggressive dictatorship which violates human rights in it’s own country. So, there are plenty of things to worry about with Trump on the world stage. Lets see how he wants to proceed with ISIS. I thought he wanted to “bomb the shit out of them”, that was his well thought out plan. There’s been little evidence that Trump is knowledgeable at all or even has an interest other than wanting to win the election. Telling is that foreign leaders are mostly all very worried. Are they all Sheep too? I guess you’re one of the very few who isn’t.

        • Quote:- ” It’s pretty disappointing ‘primal people’ are so clueless worse even than the ‘average person’ The ‘average person’ at least voted more for Trump. Like I said pull your heads out and for Jack that should be second nature as he seems to ……….I better stop there. Stop being such stupid SHEEP, or sheeple whatever. There is whole world out there to understand but maybe that’s being ‘in my head’ per the worst deplorable here…………”

          Correction:- most of the people did NOT vote for him. He did not win the popular vote. AND what constitutes “the average”. My schooling taught me that averages desinated the majority.

          Another point I tend to feel reading your comments is:- that you still are retaining a bitter state of mind; and as such make all your bitterness a blame game … seemingly becuase you are not getting it “your way” Primal wise that suggest STUCK. As I have preciously stated, you are to this blog what Donald Trump is to the Republican party … and embarrasment. The porblem, as I see it, for you is that this blog does not have an ‘electoral collage system’ for deciding what is right and what is wrong.


  138. Larry says:

    I just read that Leonard Cohen died today at age 82.
    You want it darker.

    • Erron says:

      Wow, powerful, and it could be a kind of anthem for post-election America.

      Cohen had some magnificent lines. One of my favourites, from “Suzanne” and pertinent to a primal blog perhaps:

      “There are heroes in the seaweed
      There are children in the morning
      They are leaning out for love
      And they will lean that way forever”


      • Sylvia says:

        Erron, those are beautiful lines, and didn’t he have a haunting voice. Very deep artist.

      • Larry says:

        An anthem for the entire post-election planet I think, Eron.

        Mid November long term average temperatures here are -8C (18F) night and 0 (32F) day. This November we’ve been delighting in much warmer weather, 2C (36F) night and 18C (65F) day, so recently I took my bicycle out of storage and have been enjoying riding it to work, but with a sense of foreboding that the uncommonly balmy temperatures are a symptom of a rapidly warming planet begetting climate chaos and awful suffering in decades to come.

        I will try to enjoy life while it is good, but am afflicted by images of the 1930’S Berlin upper class orgy of escapist partying while Hitler pursued his narcissistic vision that brought unthinkable chaos, suffering and destruction to millions.

        I don’t listen to Leonard Cohen much but for me his new ablum captures the sense of foreboding felt by many following the recent events in America.

        • Erron says:

          Yes Larry, the times do have a certain ‘end of days’ feel about them. Makes me sometimes long to be far away, but I seem to have spent my life running form the wolf, as the saying goes.

  139. Tim, I do know what you mean and it’s certainly a good point. But I do remember many years ago having a patient who was Japanese American that went through internment and it was truly heartbreaking. Possibly I’m sensitive to this kind of ” round ’em up” rhetoric not to mention the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists. The thing is that in an election two people stand up and say ” this is what I stand for” and as a result it would be difficult not to assume that when we choose we are in a sense saying I stand for that as well. Simplistic I know. I was curious however what you found scary about Trump? Obviously no pressure if you don’t wish to discuss it. Gretch

    • Gretchen: I know you addressed this to Tim and I don’t like interrupting conversations between others, but the optimal approach mathematically is to not even bother looking for any terrorists in the first place. The casualty numbers just don’t warrant it and it only serves to allow Republican bulwark defense contractors to suckle trillions upon trillions of dollars from the American taxpayer.

      How about hiring a few furniture safety experts, instead?

      • The irony of Gentle Giant furniture moving company’s strong presence here on the blog as related to the article I provided should not be lost either, I suppose.

      • Guru: what would be more interesting to me are the precausions you take, whilst either driving or walking the sidewalk. I myself am particularly careful when driving since I leaned to drive well into my 30’s, whereas most American kids have alread got their driving license as soon as it is permissable.

        When I did finally learn to drive I read a book about it, and I remember distinctly the author stated that there was a potential hazard from driving ever five seconds. AND … if you are in an accident, you are partially to blame.

        To this very day I am constantly aware of this. Incidently I am not a good driver … so I am particlarly aware, I could be dead within the next several minutes. As a result I do not like driving. Thankfully my Jimbo loves it. Even so I am still prepared for others to do something dangeerous.

        Also I am not sure that a driverless car will make a great deal of difference.


  140. Leonard Cohen wow, I had not heard! G.

  141. There have been hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people literally crying and sobbing over Trump’s election. So in a twisted way wouldn’t this make Donald Trump the nation’s leading Primal therapist in terms of sheer numbers of patients treated overall?

    • Sylvia says:

      I know Guru, you may be right about DT becoming a primal catalyst, he opened up my sense of dread, maybe my feelings harkened back to the fear of death in the birth canal–no, really. I predict in reaction there will be more book stores opening up their reading rooms for those who need to scream. In the suburbs more camping trailers in the back yard set up as primal boxes for crying and screaming becoming only echoes so we don’t scare the children or pets. Could be good for the RV business; see he is a business stimulus already.

    • No!!! Guru; wrong. In Primal terms if you would allow me to put my two cents in, it’s mommy and daddy that primarily made us cry. The Primal therapist sets out to permit us to finally express that feeling once and for all … unless, as is often the case, until such times as one has finally dealt with, expressed, it.

      Donald Trump is a case of a bad daddy that makes a child cry because, for the most part , daddy knows no better.

      He, Donald, might be appearing to be consillatory for the moment, as I feel you might agree, since you did not vote for him (if I read you correctly), BUT my feeling about the guy is that he will revert to being the obnoxious person he is. It’s in his neurotic upbringing (genes if you would prefer).
      If the “Frontline” progarm I saw on PBS had his background correct. I even doubt he’s be capable of taking Primal therapy. My take is, he’s beyond any form of redemption.

      It is a sad moment for the United States, as I see it, and could doom it rather than his rhetroric suggesting he could “make it great again”. It never was great, nor ever will be, and that applies to all nations and their respective governments. Countries, nations, are what (stupidly) we humans divid up for the most nafarious of reasons, and did nothing but create (territorial) wars … it’s worth a thought.

      However, I agree as I see in a later post of yours, you state that a high percentage of white women also voted for Trump. From what I have been observing on TV is, that most of these women are of the Anita Bryan types. Being brought up in the UK and ‘brain washed’ into the British version of history, we see things here from a differnt perspective. I see that for a great number of Americans and especially those who’s ancenters arrived here early, there is this notion that Americans have some special right of passage; less government interferance, and the right to do as they feel fit, with the land that was stolen from the Native Americans. As sort of “mine and don’t you dare tell me what I should do”. Donald Trump, as I see him, for perhaps a diffeernt reason … having a large amount of money, feels the same. “I can do as I pleases” syndrome.


  142. David says:

    My girlfriend when I was in LA introduced me to Leonard Cohen. She gave me a copy of “Songs of Love and Hate”. I’ve enjoyed listening to his music, dancing to his music, performing his music. Another great loss.

  143. Margaret says:

    maybe they mess up badly enough in the coming four years as to get enough democrats to vote to not only elect a president but also get a majority in the parliament..
    and I would love Michele Obama to go for the presidency and win it..

    • Margaret: I kind of feel I know just what you mean. I see it in a similar way. It has been suggested in the election cycle that the “elecoral collage” should be repealed. Even Republisan’s the best benficiaries of this aspect of the constitution agreed, but I suspect now that their man gained access to the presidency via this mechanism they will now change their mind.

      My understanding is that it was introduce into the constitution in the days when there were only 13 states, the constitional writers were more intent on getting a union, and in order to achieve the union, did all in the power to creat it. Hence the ‘electoral callage’ gave those very states a high stake in the election of a president.

      In the light of modern day politics, that is now ALL out of date. If as is so often statred the president is the President for all the people, then it should be the paopular vote that creates the presidency. Were that to be the case we would not get the election of presidents that made it to the presidency throught this flawed system. Examples being:- Goerge W Bush over Al gore et al.

      I too as you also state, there is the hope that Trump will falter badly and that things might right themselves. I am not sure of that, and even if it did I don’t feel there will be a ‘righting’ of what is deemed Democracy, a la the US, that seems to feel they invented it.

      As I see it Democracy is something of a farce since it is defintely not government of the people for the poeple, but a means to ‘brain wash’ us into believing it the best we could eveer have. I personally don’t agree with that notion.

      I won’t go into what my notion is again since, I feel it would bore most on this blog … that’s assuming that so far I am just shy of doing that. WTF.


  144. Margaret says:

    Guru, I am inclined to agree with you about Trump seeming more like the type that will keep doing all to show off and get as much attention as possibble, even if it is negative attention.
    if ever he’d feel nervous he would probably counterreact by doing the first spectacular impulsive thing that comes to his mind..
    curious as to how the republican party will cope with this inner tensions, they must be holding their breath…
    and imagine Sarah Palin as in charge of internal affairs, that is also very scary, she sounds like such a mean fanatic nutcase!

  145. Margaret says:

    this continuous stream of insults that seem to become more and more gross is starting to make me feel sick and revolted.
    just felt I needed to say something about it. M

    • Margaret: What’s strange to me is seeing more than 50 percent of white women voting for Trump, especially given all the nasty comments he said pertaining to women. I can only guess that many women are more concerned about pocketbook (money and business) issues than sexism or misogyny and they were willing to see beyond Trump’s verbal shortcomings.

      It’s worth noting people under 45 years old leaned strongly towards Clinton, and the older folks favored Trump. Trump’s victory feels like the last stand of the angry old white man, demographically speaking.

      • Here’s a sample of a white female Trump voter (taken from a Guardian article):
        “Aimee Riley, a 34-year-old orthopedic surgeon from Richmond, Virginia, said she did not want the government to raise taxes on top earners. “I have worked so hard to get out of poverty,” she said. “I was raised to earn my own success, and feel strongly that I deserve every dollar I will now earn as a surgeon.”
        In her everyday hospital work, Riley said, she saw many people “who think they deserve a handout and aren’t willing to do the work they are capable of”. Trump is “business-minded and not handout-minded, and I think this will instill a sense of effort and hard work in our country”, she said.”

        On one level, I fully appreciate where she’s coming from. On another level, I feel she betrays a lack of understanding of how economic parasitism really operates in this country (I certainly don’t hold this against Ms. Riley, though). To me it’s a much more vast, subtle, and nuanced picture than a group of low-level welfare recipients directly sponging off hard working stiffs.

        I certainly don’t dispute that Trump will be cutting both taxes and government spending down to the bone. I once read a story where Donald’s father Fred once took a sample of cleaning supplies for chemical analysis so he could make his own industrial scale batch of cleaning solution for his janitors to clean Fred Trump’s tens of thousands of rental units at a cheaper price. Donald will probably take these sorts of lessons to heart and trim the fat wherever he can.

  146. Phil says:

    Also interesting I read is that there was no evidence of a surge in votes from Hispanics as compared to how they voted for Obama. It seems that the levels of apathy are quite high, even after all the insults and threats from Trump. I wonder what it will take to activate them, and also all the other non-voters.

  147. Leslie says:

    Fear and hatred. Its so hard to watch those being the motivating forces in the new leadership …What I can’t get my head around is how 80% of white evangelicals voted for him. I know 1 personally and am horrified that Trump’s behaviour, thinking and talk is not only so unchristian like – but truly misses the mark of just plain human decency.
    I do find it helpful to see and read the commiserating comments here.

    Yes, sorry to have Leonard Cohen gone. Strangely yesterday when I arrived home from work I listened to “I’m Your Man” and soon after read the news. Sadly, he had been suffering from debilitating pain for sometime.

  148. Larry says:

    My posting of this is opens feelings for me. I feel we lost a troubadour who helped keep us in touch with our better selves. A sad reminder that a life does end.

    • Linda says:

      Here are two articles on the internet….”There’s Is a Crack in Everything, That’s How the Light Gets In”, about L. Cohen: It was posted today.
      The other is from October 17, 2016 and is David Remnicck’s profile on Leonard Cohen in the New Yorker, titled: ” Leonard Cohen Makes It Darker.”
      Both are spectacular. The “brainpickings” web site has a link to the New Yorker article..

  149. Margaret says:

    i was not talking about Trump..

  150. Otto Codingian says:

    so stressed. cat is very weak since i gave him new batch of fungus med 2 days ago. tried to give subq with vitamin b12. z not here to shove needle through his scruff. he wont let me do it. gave him worm medicine instead. what a pain in the fucking ass. do they teach medical care in elementary/junior/high school? no just algebra. or metal class. or football. i am so fucking anxious. last time i tried to do a needle into a rabbit years ago, no luck eitlher and he died since i could not get the med into him. fuck this shit.

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, I hear your exasperation. I wish one of us were there to hold your kitty while you gave a shot. Don’t know if any vet clinics are open today on Veterans day but they would probably help. Good luck.
      p.s. Maybe your wife could talk you thru it.

  151. Phil says:

    The electoral delegates from each state are not bound to vote for Trump in those states he won.
    They could use their good judgement to vote for Hillary Clinton, using the reasoning that she won the popular vote, and that Trump is quite unfit for office. So there is still that very slight chance to avoid a Trump presidency. The electoral college delegates cast their votes in December I believe.

    • Phil: that is very intersting, and something I did not know. However, I feel it would take a lot of courage, and personally I don’t see much of that around.

      But … there a sliverof hope.


  152. Otto Codingian says:

    MOM!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU FUCKING BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  153. Otto Codingian says:

    MOM!!!!! THIS IS TOO FUCKING HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  154. Otto Codingian says:

    THERE’S NOTHING FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST FOOD AND THAT’S NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  155. Margaret says:

    it is very hard to watch an animal you love getting more and more ill.
    maybe focus on comforting him mainly. worm medication sounds to me not so much like a good idea when he is already feeling bad, but of course I have not the right information and you do.
    you and the cat have all my sympathy, and the cat must know you care and at least that gives him some safety.
    sometimes there is not much more we can do.
    hang in there, M

  156. Otto Codingian says:


  157. Phil says:

    Here’s a very interesting article on “the rise of American authoritarianism”. Kind of long but worth looking at. Maybe the best explanation I’ve seen for the rise of Trump:

  158. Phil says:

    Another good article but not very hopeful as to the future when someone like Trump come to power. That there does seem to be a trend and it’s possible to look back in history for parallels.

    • Phil: I read the first article and then skimmed through the second. I see just where it all arises BUT I find the solution is none of the below.

      First;: a quicky on my own father. He was an authoratrian, and I know from my Primaling and my own father, how it arises. My father was discussing with my broher, about Nazism, later in our twenties and my father stated uneqivically:- “you always obey the authority?” My brother jumped in at that point and asked my father the simple question “If the authority told you to trun on the gas in the gas chamber, do you obey?” My father paused for about a second then replied with a firm “Yes” My brother turned to my father and said “you dirty bastard”.
      Also my father told my brother in law, before the birth of his first child “In order to rear children you have to break their spirit” … as he did with us.

      Authoritariansim in a nutshell, AND to me, the real implications of that article, Phil. Carl Marx IMO had the genius to diseminate the problem for us humans and it’s social structure, BUT his solution just created another authoritarian … “the dictatorship of the proletariat”; (Stalin). It doesn’t work that way as I feel Primal Theory sussinctly implies. It needs to evolve without any goveernment … any autjhority. Trump was ineveitable, and will contineue as long as we have ANY authority … whatever from that may take. It’s why I suggest the only solution is the abolition of that: that holds this whole ‘rotton’ system together MONEY. QED


      P.S. From that article the relevant poiints, as I read them:-
      1) Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: obedience or self-reliance?
      2) Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: to be considerate or to be well-behaved?
      3) Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: curiosity or good manners?
      on the negative
      1) Using military force over diplomacy against countries that threaten the United States
      2) Changing the Constitution to bar citizenship for children of illegal immigrants
      3) Imposing extra airport checks on passengers who appear to be of Middle Eastern descent in order to curb terrorism
      4) Requiring all citizens to carry a national ID card at all times to show to a police officer on request, to curb terrorism
      5) Allowing the federal government to scan all phone calls for calls to any number linked to terrorism


      • The line should have read:- “If the authority told you to turn on the gas in the gas chamber, do you obey?”


      • Sylvia says:

        Jack and Phil, I read the articles too and of course side with the theory it is better to raise a child to be curious, self-reliant, and considerate. Good parenting and good birth practices to create a happy non-repressed child hopefully. I guess that is why we all are here, because of what we didn’t get and can acknowledge it instead of blaming immigrants for all our problems.
        Here’s an article by Janov you might find worth a read on his site of ‘Reflections on the human condition’ of April 4, 2016 entitled: “What happens when you can’t feel; how fascism gets its start.”

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Sylvia: I read that blog of Art’s at the time he posted it and again after you gave us the link. I think there is that very same aspect in most of us; BUT I agree that Trump and to a major extent, the Republicans fall very squarely into the same framework egregiously.

          However I did get an email from Avaaz not sure how to properly post it but will try. What it suggest is that the legislators of the states that had ‘electoral collage’ votes for Trump could reverse this vote by a simple straight vote in their legislation bodies. This would, if it were to happen before the electoral collage voted on 19th December, take the election away from Trump and hand it to Hillary since she had the “popular” vote. I signed the agreement for them to go forward. I would urge all that feel so disgusted with this outcome as I do, to do the same. The link is:-


          • Sylvia says:

            Jack, I am going to look into that more. It seems CA and NY and other states have passed that bill and needs other states to do so too to make a difference. I’m thinking that Republicans still hope they can get trump out early by impeachment and have Pence to lead. It’s a chance anyway to see if the republican states have come to their senses and change the outcome of the vote.
            I must say in seeing the people surrounding trump it does not inspire any confidence. The women victor supporters who’ve spoken on his behalf on the PBS news hour seem fanatical or strident with those qualities peering thru their eyes. The eyes are the window of the soul, or in primal terms, the view of either repression and disconnection in the brain or connection and peace. At any rate, I cannot look at trump and have to avert my eyes whenever he’s on tv, just as I had to do with Bush junior.
            Happy Sunday.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Sylvia: I too have the same feeling about what could take place BUT for me Mike Pence is not a better deal. He could actually get most of Trumps idea through, on the pretext that he’s more moderate. My feeling is he was chosen by Trump, because he was on of those ultra right (Alr Repubulicans).

              The whole thing for me is so, so, scary … mainly for the planet. I’ve already buddied about it, with one of my buddies.


      • Patrick says:

        Money FOR which you did blackmail and several other very nasty things

      • Phil says:

        I didn’t think that those articles offered any solutions but were just descriptive of what is going on. What I think is that the US presidency holds way too much power for any one person to have. Presidents can be removed from office by impeachment but better would be, I think, to much more severely limit the power of that office.
        It is amazing to me the number of experts, columnists, newspaper editorials, past and current leaders, and celebrity figures who advised that Trump was completely unsuitable to be president. A large portion of the public has ignored all of that and instead put their faith in an untested authority figure, maybe because of their fears and anxieties. It is reassuring, but irrational, to imagine that some very strong authority figure will fix all the problems and defeat all the enemys.

        • Phil: You said, “It is reassuring, but irrational, to imagine that some very strong authority figure will fix all the problems and defeat all the enemys(sic)..

          Your post also has echoes of what I see with Arthur Janov in a much different manner. When I was a youngster operating on dangerously limited information in the early 90’s I sometimes felt that same reassurance that Janov had all the answers and he could defeat all problems in the world if only people would lay down their defensive arms and just listen to this precious man. It was only after the New York and Washington events in 2001 I started to realize this may not actually be the case.

          I suppose an argument COULD be made that people childishly look for a strong Daddy figure to solve all our problems like a real Brawny man, yet it’s so much more than that.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Guru: I find it amazing. I feel you totally miss the point of what the Primal notion IS. It was first a “discovery” NOT A SOLUTION but a therpy, backed-up with a theory behind it. Like with all therapies, they are meant to make life more meaningful, healthier (hopefully) AND perhaps less painful.

            That you see it differntly, be it on your own head. To suggest that Janov had all the solution was something that from all of my readings of him; was never stated.

            You have stated that have not the slightest intentions of reading the article I wrote for this blog. That’s fine by me; BUT then to mis-represent Janov I find very nafarious on your part.

            I’ve asked and suggested you tell us about yourself and your early life. From what I gather in your writings, you are more pre-occupied with PRIVACY. I doubt “privacy” will make you more healthy.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Phil: Yeah! I actually meant to say it was:- ‘a solution that was needed’.

          I agree on what you say; BUT I feel that the writers of the constitution, in what I feel was an attempt to get as far away from the British parliamentary system as they could. Like with most political contrivances, there is always an ulteria motive (agenda) behind it all. It’s almost impossible for politicians trying to covet votes for their own existence on the pay-roll of the tax payers; to survive without lies and deception Some do it more than others. What I feel we have here with Trump is the biggest liar of them all. Seemingly he did it in business and sort of intuitively knew he might be aplicatable in politics. I don’t think the guy is that bright, on any level, to have figured it out.

          Now that he’s acheived his goal, it remains to be seen how he holds onto it, but I think he knows, somewhere in his subconscious that he now has to change something. Whether he’ll succeed is another question.

          However I felt the piont in the article was that it was operating on the premise, that we needed governement, then a set-up as to how that governing had to proceed. This, I have a strong feeling, is where most solution have unintended consiquences … not initially realized. the Founding Father were not quite as bright as most think and/or hope.

          It was only after reading Jean Pierre Proudon and following it with others afterward, and those lecturs I attendend in Regents Crescent in London in my twenties I, for the first time, saw the falacy of what is deemed “DEMOCRACY” We are, most of us, able to see many problems, especially the problems of others … outside ourselves. The real PROBLEM is trying to determine a fix.

          It is my strong conviction that there is no such “FIX”. Most all us are afraid of the unknown and as a result will stick with what already exist rather than risk ‘THAT UNKNOWN’ From my perspective, even we Primal people can see the problem of NEUROISIS … but to have to go throught that “scarier than all hell” to get beyond it; is where we all resist. It’s normal and narural.

          I come back to the famous mantra of Vivian Janov:- “Take a risk” If we are lucky as was the case with Danny Wilson to get thrown into it beyond our ablity to PREVENT it, we wil automatically … otherwise, we will do our instictive best to “NOT go there”. In my own case It happened, in spite of my doing my utmost ‘to NOT go there’ It’s seemingly too life threatening. The irony is that it’s just the opposite … BUT try and convince the unititiated. !!!!!!!!!!


  159. Guru , Interesting article but actually Tim did not say he was afraid of terrorists. He just said “it was scary.” Also I did not ask him about terrorists, I said “what was scary ?”. Maybe he was talking about falling furniture. Gretchen

    • Tim didn’t seem to want to respond to your comment. so after a short grace period I decided to give my own take on the matter even if it sent things off a tangent a bit, Even though I would be remiss if I didn’t say my own personal frustrations drove my comment, the article still indirectly shows that carrying out many of Trump’s exhortations to spend federal manpower and dollars to drive Syrians and Muslims away are ludicrous even from a practical businessman’s cost-saving drive for a more efficient government.

      Trump will likely be big on rooting out fraud, waste, and abuse in government, and he would be wise to consider the article I linked when he soon decides how national resources should be spent. You know a fair number of celebrities, don’t you? Why don’t you give one of his friends (or friend of friends) a call and see if you can have his advisors check out the article? I do kindly ask for 10 percent of the total aggregate cost savings from any resultant federal policy streamlining as a finder’s fee. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

      • Tim Gordon says:

        Guru, I didn’t know there was a limited time in which to respond!
        Gretchen, you asked what I was afraid of, and, well, I did have an employee recently injured by some falling furniture, so, yes, that is right up there.
        I have a lot of vague fears but I am scared of Trump’s attitude towards both allies and supposed enemy nations, and what sort of mayhem could result from it.
        I feel confused and troubled, possibly because I really do not know what will happen.

    • Gretchen: I did not know you could be that funny. That really made me laugh out loud … yes … loud.


  160. David says:

    I had what felt to me like a very significant dream last night. It was nighttime, I was staying in a hotel room with Arthur Janov and we were sharing the same bed. After some friendly chat we decided it was time to go to sleep. I’ve struggled with insomnia my whole life, especially in strange new places, so I was impressed at how quickly he fell asleep. I noticed he suddenly became fretful, muttering words, his hair becoming plastered down with sweat in thick strands. I learned in close to study his face, smiling to myself knowing I would be able to tell everyone that Janov talks in his sleep. Suddenly he woke up, grabbed me and very forcibly shoved two fingers up my arse. I yelled at him to stop, but he kept on holding me saying loudly over and over “Stay with it!! Stay with it!!”. Then I woke up.

    After an initial WTF moment, I felt like was able to pretty quickly surmise what this dream was about. Since there was no feeling in the dream – there was no fear, or disgust, or sadness – my sense is that this is what author Thomas Stone has called a “progress report dream”. Janov, in the dream, is symbolic of my own “superconscious” or what ever part of me oversees my healing process, and it is telling me that I am making good progress with healing the trauma of being raped by my father and to “stay with it”. Since I still have no memory of this event, I do wonder if this is symbolic of a specific moment. There is intimacy in the dream followed by a shocking event. Is it possible that my father raped me with his hand rather than his penis? I guess anything is possible… Anyways, I thought it might be helpful to share this here on the blog.

    • Wow!!!! David. I found your telling of this dream to be very courageous … AND very revealing for you. I contend you are well on the way to better health, and from here-on more able to sleep. It is indeed scarier than all hell, to face the kind of event. BUT deep down, I feel you know you have to.


      • David says:

        Thank you Jack! It feels like a relief to be heard. I am always kind of holding my breath when I post something like this because I’m not sure how it will be received. Will people find it disgusting, will I just be completely ignored. Part of the feeling I imagine. I actually found this dream to be quite exciting, once the initial jolt had past, because it does indeed indicate to me progress. Like you say, a revealing. What is good about sharing in this way also is I feel with this forum I am doing something in my own very small way to add something to human knowledge of the healing process, how the mind works and indeed what is being healed. Yes, here’s hoping for better sleep!

    • Phil says:

      That dream does seem very startling and significant, saying something about your
      therapy process.

    • Erron says:

      Gutsy post David, thanks! And I agree, progress indeed. One thing: you say he raped you yet you have no memory of it. How do you know it took place?

  161. Margaret says:

    thanks for sharing that, it is inspiring to hear how our minds can give us , or itself, a message about itself and an incentive about how to continue.
    that is so great, I am happy for you.
    dreaming can be such a good tool in therapy, and indeed a good barometer as well.
    great dream.
    also great you wrote about it.
    I noticed many times how a dream that seemed to be important, started to even make more sense when I tell someone about it.
    relating it seems to make the final pieces to fall into place, at least that is how it often works for me, and also if there is a big feeling in it, it rises again even many years later when I recount the dream to someone.
    I regret lately my dreams seem to be kind of fragmented , maybe it is the studying which causes my poor brain to do overtime to organize all that philosophical discussing I have to try and remember, all those different views and names and sometimes tedious details…

    two more weeks and I can hopefully ‘forget’ a bit about it smiley..
    am glad though to have absorbed the information, it is interesting. but…


  162. Otto Codingian says:

    i dont know what to do with myself, buddy. went to work, come home to the sick cat, give him fluids, wait for that to settle in, try to give meds later. probably nothing on tv, not really having any strong interest in listening to music. this is just too much. had enough. fucking shit. horrible hot or now cloudy weather, like texas but never any fucking rain anymore.

  163. Sylvia says:

    Hi all, just saw a good movie by Michael Moore entitled: “Where to invade next.” He goes to different countries, mostly in Europe and picks their best ideas of how to live and their solutions to problems . In Italy they have a 2 hour lunch and 8 weeks paid vacation and Italians live an average of 4 yrs. longer. The worker’s happiness is considered as important as the profits. In Finland they have the best education and highest performing students but have no homework for the children. There are no arrests for drugs in Portugal and there is free health care. Norway has rehabilitation for its prisoners with a 20% recidivism rate where the US is almost 80%. I think the secret may be that we spend most of our taxes on military instead of people’s needs.
    Anyway, I found the movie life-affirming and uplifting for solutions of what could be. Very good movie. Thumbs up.

    • Larry says:

      Thanks. Looks interesting. I never intended to watch it because I thought it was all about the military, judging by the title.

  164. David says:

    Margaret and Phil, thanks for your supportive comments. Margaret, I find I occasionally get dreams like this that have a clear and distinct message, but more often that not I wake up thinking what does THAT have to do with anything?? Dreams can be elusive and if you want to remember them more fully and distinctly I find you have to takes steps actively to do that like keeping a dream journal. The whole subject is fascinating. Then there are lucid dreams which are a whole other category. I’ve had a few of those and they are pretty mind blowing. Sorry that your studies are a bit of a drag from what you’re saying, I haven’t had to do any studying like that since I was in school studying for exams and I remember having a pretty torrid time of it. What I should be studying more of is music theory which I’ve had a huge block with. I’m a self taught musician and most of my playing and writing has been intuitive, that is when not imitating others during the learning process. Most people are not interested in learning music theory either, which has let me off the hook, but now one of my younger students has decided he wants to learn to read music, so I need to learn it to teach it to him. So I am slowly learning it with him. He thinks I know it all when I’m in fact only ever one step ahead of him… 🙂

  165. David says:


    “One thing: you say he raped you yet you have no memory of it. How do you know it took place?”

    Yep, a reasonable and obvious question, and one which still ask myself occasionally though more out of hope than anything else. It is more a matter of piecing things together. It’s true that I won’t know 100% until I fully remember, which is one reason why I have talked about this issue with very few people and none of my family (such as it is, my father and sister are both dead). Mostly it comes from what I have experienced in primal feelings over the last two and half years approx. I’ve logged around 60 hours of crying (and screaming) about this one issue alone and who knows that could be just the tip of the iceberg… I found myself screaming “no no no” over and over as if my life was in danger, often connected with bad dating experiences, and then that changed to “please don’t do it daddy”, which is accompanied sometimes, though not always, with a deep feeling of disgust. These feelings can be incredibly painful and intense. So to me, based on this, my father did something to me that was thoroughly disgusting and painful and shocking. No, I don’t know 100% if I was raped, but putting all that together it does somewhat narrow down the field.

  166. Margaret says:

    yesterday I had the friend from Cabo Vede over for lunch.
    it was nice, specially when he played the piano. he has only begon to learn to play it last year or so, but seems talented, specially when he plays songs from Cesaria Evora or tunes he put together himself, with tropical complicated rythms in them.
    he told me he would like to have more, that he is starting to fall in love with me, but I did tell him I need more time.
    it is an unusual situation for me, being the one needing to be ‘conquered’…

    I also told him I already know a lot about him but he needs to hear more about me.
    he seees even less than I do, but was very straightforward about that issue, saying rationally a visually disabled person could be better off with someone with normal eyesight for practical reasons, but on the other hand one can wait forever for the ‘perfect’ imaginary person and then grow old alone.
    and being in the same situation also has advantages, a lot of understanding to start with.
    he is enthusiastic and active, and seems a very nice person.
    I am aware of what is often being pointed out in therapy, that we tend to find the good partners boring at first sight, and want the struggle, so I do not want to write him off because of feeling uncertain still.
    told him I need more time, which feels true, and it is good to remain honest to my own feelings instead of wanting to just please his.
    there is also something scary about allowing more closeness, as the option of being rejected is scary but also the option of opening up and not knowing where it goes, and whether it will really lead to a good relationship.
    will have to take it step by step, and it is a good test to see whether he keeps making efforts to continue.
    next time I will ask him to speak Portuguese haha, which might raise my libido as it is a beautiful language and hearing someone speak his native language is always appealing..
    he has a progressive eye disease but already ordered a guide dog, which is good. he is also very independent and good with Iphone and computers.
    and he is younger than I am, smiley, so let’s hope romance will start blooming some day in the future.
    or not, so far I feel kind of relaxed about it..
    I do like the idea of visiting his home island though, mmm, tropical beaches, good food, good music, friendly people!
    will invest in exploring this and giving it a proper chance, but also take the time I need.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I read this post of your and I wish to urge you to go for it. Not marriage, but a courtship. TAKE A BIG RISK. Worrying about rejection is a factor I agree, BUT the reverse (alternative) “regretting” not taking a chance IMO is worse.

      Oh Margaret!! I feel you deserve something akin to this. I know, I know all the cons …. BUT they are surmountable. The pros I feel outweigh all that. Look on it as an adventure, and there’s nothing that should prevent either you or him for terminating it. Just having someone that cares for you and who care for, is always such a gift … and I know you know all about this having done it before.

      Keep us all informed, cos I am absolutely certain that so many of us will be ‘batting’ for you.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Margaret correction:- ” Just having someone that cares for you and who care for, is always such a gift” should read ” Just having someone that cares for you and who YOU care for, is always such a gift”.


      • Larry says:

        Sounds great Margaret. There is no risk in getting to know someone I think; we do it all the time, except there is risk/disappointment in discovering you like the person more than the person likes you or vice versa.

    • David says:

      Margaret, I hope things go well for you, it’s always exciting to be on the threshold of a possible relationship. At the least, he sounds like a very good friend but it sounds to me like you both want more. It’s also a big opportunity for growth with the feelings that get stirred up, it’s a win/win in that sense. Please keep us posted.

    • Erron says:

      I read this with a big smile on my face, Margaret 😉 All the best to you, whatever you decide. Does he like cats?

  167. Margaret says:

    Jack, thank you for your sweet words.
    yes, I can feel how having said yesterday I need more time, now makess me feel more at ease to start opening up to the idea.
    he called me today to say thanks for the nice afternoon yesterday, and it was funny, when I told him about working today with a girlfriend on isolating the place here bettter against the cold, he replied ‘when you feel cold I will come and keep you warm’, which made me laugh, as it sounded also very sweet and funny at the same time.
    it is nice to grant myself the time to be courted, in fact I think i had only that experience with my very first boyfriend, who left me right after he finally got me, and from that time on I got stuck in an actout of chasing the only partially interested and trying to make them love me…
    full recreation of me and my dad..
    so now I do hope he keeps making an effort, so I can start trusting him more and more and open up myself to the attraction ..
    yesterday at some point he fased it like ‘so you want it the traditional way?’, and haha, yes, I guess I do!
    it is not a rational decision, it is what I truely seem to need right now.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Wow Margaret: I totally agree with all you say, AND I now feel good about my response to you, having got this reply. I also feel his remark about coming over to keep you warm is absolutely very loving.

      I saw on TV a snapshot of one of the ‘Muppets’ that asked a little girl:- “What is love?” and she replied:- “Hugs and kisses and a WARM feeling inside” I would love you get that feeling. it is so adorable.


  168. Margaret says:

    p.s. he had one specially amazing ap on his Iphone, when he aimed the camera at me, it said ‘woman in a purple knitted sweater sitting on a chair next to a brown wooden table in a white kitchen’.
    isn’t that amazing? I want that extra ap as well!!
    my regular Iphone camera does already mention one or more faces spotted and whether they are well centered or not but all these details, that is such a great tool if you have poor eyesight, not only to take pictures, but to scan your surroundings.
    I feel pretty sure it also can work with face recognition so you can even detect whether there are people you know around, and more or less where they are!
    another ap immediatelyy reads out loud any text you take a picture of, also very handy.
    another ap lets you know when you are about to reach the bus stop you need..
    he also found a good piano teacher who tells him in a good way how to play songs he chooses on the piano, and i heard an example of her giving him the instructions for ‘Imagine’, and yes, when he will send them to me I can immediately learn to play the song fairly easily!
    I will definitely go to that teacher myself next year or so, she works in the music academy i have my singing classes in.
    so he is already adding a lot to my life now, and enjoys my company so we are having a nice start,with shared interests as well.
    but still, I need time haha, time to enjoy the getting closer bit by bit hopefully..

  169. Leslie says:

    Sounds like fun ahead Margaret!
    I am happy for you as you & Cabo get to know each another!!

  170. Margaret says:

    smiley, he would have liked to meet my cats but the only sign he got from them was a clattering cat door when he started to play the piano.
    when he had left they came to check immediatly ..
    I do not want to get my hopes up too much so far, as this is very early still, but in any case it is nice at least something moves at the romantic horizon for a change..
    let’s hope it is not a fata morgan a, smiley..

  171. Margaret says:

    grrrr, I just found out I also need to write an essay for the course of philosophy for which my exam is next week thursday.
    a complicated subject, what is science and which criteria have been proposed in the various philosophical schools, which criticisms and what is your personal idea, and how does it apply to your field, psychology in my case..
    interesting of course, as an important question raised is does Primal therapy belong to what can be regarded as science, and which standards would I prefer personally?
    need to do a lot of thinking and organizing and looking up of the philosofical standpoints and then add my own perspective, all in between the next days activities, ha, just wrote a mail to the examiner explaining some of my problems here, as some requirements depend on courses I have not done yet as they are not available yet in audio form, so my references can’t be APA standard as that course is still ahead in my planning..
    also the lay-out will not be fancy, and the deadline is very very short as this notice was completely at the end of the material on the site, while that, as someone once told me, was supposed to be facultative, obviously wrong information.
    argh, will work on it and hope it is acceptable for at least the half of the points required. it forms part of the exam, which is separate , planned next week…

    oh well, next time I better work my way through all the info on the site first, but well, that is a tremendous lot of info usually, wish they would put this kind of stuff at the top and not at the bottom!!!
    a big challenge, so well, will give it a go!

  172. Thanks for your response Tim. Gretch

  173. Otto Codingian says:

    3am. ah get up. 2am cat had bowel movement and possible pee. highlight of my day probably. get ready for work. quick glance at aarp magazine in the bathroom, 10 best places to retire in the u.s. boomers having fun. me not having much fun. me go work soon. chuckling hysterically to myself as i read the descriptions of the boomers reinvigorating Cleveland rust belt city, or some guy taking 5 years to find Eugene Oregon’s slow pace of life. sounds great, still going to get that big sting at the end. this burst of chuckles actually sounds close enough to crying, so i have a chuckle about that too. haha. victim? mebbe. bitch! life you fucking bitch. haha

  174. Margaret says:

    Daniel, I am not such a fan of Kuhn, am more attracted to what came later, starting with Imre Lakatos, then Gigerenzer and Bas van Fraassen, and Quine, who leave more room for openness and interaction between consecutive views and theories. Kuhn did mellow up his notion of the incommensurability of different paradigms and he has his merits, so I will mention them but my focus will be how some kind of criteria , actually all of them when interpreted too narrowly, verification, confirmation, falsification, a neopositivistic emphasis on empirical data, all tend to exclude a valuable field of psychology.
    it seems a good starting point to bring up my idea of how emotions deserve their proper place as a cognition and how psychology has to be cautious not to end up with a big gap between the behaviouristic and cognitively oriented approaches and the more psychodynamic approaches.
    all of that seems to be linked to the influences of the struggles to find a proper criterium for the definition of science as opposed to pseudo science.
    mmm, thanks, you gave me an opportunity to focus my thoughts some more during my breakfast, smiley.
    it dimiinishhes the stress about the assignment.
    luckily it has to remain under 1500 words.
    I wish they would count in lines, as I don’t know how to count the words with my Apple text editor,unless I count them one by one, sigh.
    will count the average of words on some lines, and then extrapolate to the number of lines I end up with, ha!
    Daniel, you must be able to write some references about Janovs main books in the proper APA style, would you be so kind to e-mail them to me so I can use them as an example and also paste them under my paper?
    can’t risk to send it in without any references but I still have to do that course and am in such a time pressure now.
    the primal scream, the feeling child, you know, sadly enough still no publication of dr. B. M. Bernfeld or dr. G. Castle?

  175. Daniel says:

    M, it sounds very interesting. Personally, I found hard science to be of little value when it comes to the depths of the human mind and condition, although it can be very interesting and thought provoking. But my approach is not that of the scientific psychologist but of the therapist who aims at the depth. As I’ve written here before, I think the things dearest to us in our lives are neither measurable nor predictable.

    And regarding the citations, thy will was done.
    Good luck.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Daniel: I agree wholeheartedly with the conclusion you come to in this post. I find that the medical profession, especially the neurological branch, and the scientific community are grossly remiss in ignoring Primal Theory. Maybe, because it was too simple in concept and puts academia into question on many matter of of their fundamentals.

      There are millions studies going on in studying the brain, using, for the most part MRI scans and ignoring “the nature of feelings” It does not allow either professions to delve them into “the nature of feelings” and so it gets brushed off. It seems to me that academia loves the complications and the convolutions of complexity in the hope that it remains the domain of ‘the few’.

      I found Margaret’s comment in response to yours, to demonstrate just this factor. (that’s not meant as a criticism of you Margaret, since you are required to do all this in order to qualify and get a degree) It all sounds very learned … signifying little or nothing in the final analysis, especially to those of us outside ‘that few’ Janov refers to it as “booga booga” science.


      • Erron says:

        Jack, I think feelings are the “Ghost in the Machine”. And like spirituality, they can’t been nailed down, measured, quantified etc. Hence they have to be ignored by scientific method, which has spent thousands of years weeding out dangerous mysticism from empirical fact.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Erron: I was very good at both maths and science in school, and until therapy bought into both and indulged them. I now see them in a whole different light. Neurosis came first and out of neurosis was the outgrowth of both religion and science. No other creature as far as I can tell, indulges either. I see both as promoting neurosis, rather than attempting to look into it.

          I am not totally sure of what you were implying here. However I agree that the desire to “nail it down” is a factor of neurosis, an act-out if you prefer. I am not sure that it needs to be ‘nailed down’. I also see it as more recent times in our evolution, that we indulged all of them. BUT, to repeat, Neurosis came first. IMO.

          On a note that came up once in group, where one patient stated “I was crazy” I retorted:- The only difference between me and you is, that I know I am crazy whereas I feel, you are busy trying to prove you are not”


  176. Margaret says:

    Daniel, thanks, smiley.
    as a matter of fact I am enjoying using this assignment as my very first exercise to think and talk about the disadvantages of to tight a criterium for ‘science’, which is still an influence from the neopositivists.
    as the essay has to include our personal viewpoints, I can talk about how this criterium has influenced psychology to the point of causing some kind of split between the behaviourists on the one far end of the scale, with cognitivism more towards the middle, and the psychodynamic apporaches towards the other end, with psycho-analysis as the classical other far side.
    the stern criterium of measurability and predictability seems to narrow down the field to the point of losing out on valuable approaches, marginalizing them or causing some kind of internal dualism where one party looks down on the other.
    integration and the proper value of emotion as an important cognition , valorizing a theory like for example primal theory, and regarding empirical confirmation still as important but not as a primary goal, but as a secondary step of confirmation or possibly falsification seems much more useful for all participants.
    it is nice writing the essay with enough freedom as to give the example of a therapeutic group situation, with strong early feeling breaking through, and al the participants knowing and feeling where the line is between just stress release crying and the power of an early feeling breaking to the surface.
    I use it as an example of hard to measure experiences that nevertheless are very real and have real consequences which might be measured in some way if one looks for ways to keep check as by measuring cortisol levels.
    it feels like a good example as opposed to starting with data and statistics and excluding other approaches as unscientific.
    a different criterium here could be a proper solid theory and the application of it that works, and that then can be checked in various ways by measuring certain data. if possible, as it would be hard to test statistically with control groups, but what matters more here, the genuine psychological reality or the statistical testing?
    certainly it should not be excluded a priori as testing can always be attempted at some point.
    so this serves to me as to point out possible negative effects of too strict a criterium .
    now we even seem to have different universities already here which focus either on psychodynamic or ‘Freudian’ approaches or cognitively oriented universities. that seems not like a good evolution.
    I will have a hard time to limit myself to 1500 words, haha, I seem to get carried away.
    we are invited to come up with a catchy title for our essay, and I am thinking of something like ‘are there feelings in science?’ not a good translation of the Dutch, ’emotion in science’ also sounds like it.
    my botom line message is the actual science criterium tends to put too much limitations to ‘proper’ psychology, excluding or marginalizing a large but very interesting field.

    • Daniel says:

      I think that scientifically speaking the problem begins once you postulate that there is an unconscious. For example, you can define certain feelings and even gather data about them, like asking a person on a questionnaire to rate his or her anger at the moment on a scale of 1 to 10. It’s subjective, and therefore somewhat of a lesser scientific value, but still acceptable withing the social sciences, psychology included.

      However, it would be impossible to even define the variable called Primal Pain in order to examine it, because it’s unconscious and people can’t quantify it, not even subjectively. For that reason academic psychology will always have a problem with therapies such as PT or psychoanalysis.

      But when it comes to such psychotherapies the question, in my opinion, is different: Why do we need in the first place to legitimize ourselves as scientists? Why would we want to fit in rather than create the taste by which we will be judged? What therapies such as PT can and do show are the limits of what science can do for our welfare. This is a good thing. Science will never be enough, especially when it comes to find out who we are or what we can be or how to live.

    • Larry says:

      Daniel, you present a view that stimulates my thinking. Thank you for that.

      It sounds to me more like you and Margaret are talking about statistical validation, the deciding whether one treatment is better than another or is effective at all, than about science and research. Research needn’t be confined to the dictates of statistical techniques, but some form of statistical corroboration gives the insights of research a lot more weight amongst peers. Statistical corroboration is a good thing. I’ve read that some surgical techniques have been developed and promoted under the belief that surely the technique helps, but later statistical analysis shows no improvement or even worse outcomes from the surgery.

      Science is the abstraction or modelling of reality; it’s a best guess at trying to understand reality. Statistical support gives added weight that the guesses do represent some truth. In a way the Janovs were scientists in their forming (researching) models (theories) of what was taking place during a primal, and they were rudimentary statisticians in their assessing the likelihoods of better outcomes when using this or that approach or technique with a patient.

      The methods of data analysis are always evolving. Someday maybe someone will go to the trouble of collecting big data about everything there is to measure and count in peoples’ lives over decades or longer, and will compare a population of non-primal people to those who are primalling, and probably from big data analytics on super computers trends and patterns will pop out that distinguish one group from the other, in which case the statistical corroboration will likely give primal therapy and research into it a lot more weight and attention amongst a widening group of peers.

      From what little I’ve read, I think research is ongoing into trying to better understand the unconscious. I guess that can be a good or a bad thing, depending on what people do with the insights gleaned.

      In the meantime, as you suggest we should continue on as people always do in our individual reality, and when we need it seek practitioners to help us perhaps to adjust our models of reality and or perhaps to better cope within them, the practitioner’s understanding and approach being based on their model of what is going on in us that various researchers have developed and may or may not have been statistically corroborated.

      I think you are saying that for those of us living it and who know it works, Primal Therapy doesn’t need statistical validation. But I think for those not living it statistical corroboration would open a lot more eyes to the therapy’s effectiveness, and perhaps then more people will assimilate the model of reality that Primal Theory offers, which seems to me would be a good thing.

  177. Margaret says:

    you and that cat of yours are clearly fighters.
    keep us posted, we are here.
    do you have a buddy?
    you shouldn’t have to deal with everything on your own.
    M and cats

  178. Margaret says:

    Jack, I understand that is your view, but I am not sure you interpret mine in the right way.
    of course I am aware of the tremendous value of the primal approach, no question about that.
    my goal is to give it its credits on a larger scene if possible.
    my point in the esay will be that either side looking down on the different approach, misses out on valuable information.
    they both study the same human mind and human being in general, or even animals included, life and this world, and there should be no fighting each other or competing but integration and inclusion.
    it is actually the leftover from historical influences that should be dated, that still instigates this dividing line that should not be cultivated.
    neurology is very valuable, there are not only primal feelings to deal with, but other diseases and anomalies , and just exploring the brain is fascinating just for the sake of it as well.
    the more we understand the better, especially if it can be learned about by non invasive means like mri scans and cell cultures instead of those horribble animal tests.
    the problem mainly lays in the atttitude that only wants to promote one single perspective, at the cost of the other perspectives, and end up in some kind of mental and scientific imperialism as some philosophers call it.
    an open mind, integration and exchange between different disciplines can give true learning and growth, for all parties.
    Art Janov does not seem to refute neuroscience as far as I know..
    and cognitive science has learned us a lot a about a lot of processes in the brain aside from feelings, decision making, detection, how we use our senses, what can go wrong when different brain areas malfunction due to strokes or diseases or genetic variation etc.
    no narrowmindedness is my bottom line, so I am not sure whether you would object to that.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: We may be talking ‘cross purposes’ here. I do fully agree with your notion of:- ” there are not only primal feelings to deal with, but other diseases and anomalies , and just exploring the brain is fascinating just for the sake of it as well. the more we understand the better, especially if it can be learned about by non invasive means like mri scans and cell cultures instead of those horrible animal tests.”
      If we humans were to be able to rear our young NATURALLY, I feel 99% of all the other maladies would cease to exist (Primal Theory as I read it). The major point for me writing the article for this blog. However, since that is not the case I agree that all these other factors are needed; only to some extent. I was attempting to say that the both the neurological department of medicine and science in general are REMISS in failing to look into Primal Theory.
      For the most part; the way I analyze it is:- We love complication and convolution … it make us feel intelligent, BUT leaves out that whole other, right lobe of the brain. If we do indeed find it necessary to study the brain and fail to either recognize or take into account of the ‘right lobe’ then we have missed one half of what constitutes the human brain.

      My next comment puts this into another context (to quote Janov “Head Tripping”).


    • Larry says:

      Margaret, I think I wrote about this before, but your mention of the beneficial work of cognitive science spurs me to mention it again. I’m gratified to read that cognitive scientists “…are beginning to realize that they don’t really have a science of mind as such, but instead a science of part of the mind. They now want to bring emotion and cognition back together, and that’s a good thing.”, from an interview with neuroscientist Joseph Ledoux titled “Parallel Memories: Putting Emotions Back Into the Brain”, in the book “The Mind. Leading Scientists Explore the Brain, Memory, Personality, and Happiness”.

  179. Jack Waddington says:

    As the saying goes:- We all want go to heaven, BUT none of us want to die.
    We all desire PEACE, but inevitable do everything to prevent it: like:-
    1) Support a military that is nothing more than ‘paid killers’.
    2) Support a police force that is nothing more than ‘paid bullies’.
    3) Support politicians that are little more that ‘paid liars’

    Back to the notion of “heaven”
    Romeo (of Romeo and Juliet) said:- “Heaven is HERE were Juliet lives.
    The bible quotes Jesus:- “Suffer the little children to come unto me for THEIR’S is the Kingdom of heaven.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Another one I missed:- We all pay lip service to “Money is the root of all evil” … but chose to live with that EVIL.


    • Larry says:

      “There is evidence that genetics may play a role in determining which (political) party we side with.” says John Hibbing at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. “Hibbings has found that conservatives are more “threat sensitive”: threatening images or sounds elicit a stronger physiological response from them than from liberals.” “Hibbings is now exploring what it might mean if people could see opposing political views in the same way: not as a sign of moral bankruptcy, but as an inborn way of perceiving the world.”, in an article from New Scientist, issue November 5-11, 2016.

      I sure hope we and our political leaders have the wisdom to try to understand the reasons behind opposing views, and that leaders use the insight to try to unite us for the benefit of all, not to try to inflame passions to divide us against opponents in a quest for votes and power for its own sake and not for the benefit mainly of political cronies and like-minded elite.

  180. Otto Codingian says:

    damn cat is resistant to the needle i keep trying to stick in him. my buddy went to heaven a couple of years ago. at least i saw the cat pee today.

  181. Otto Codingian says:

    there is so much i need to do for the friggin cat, but i am semi-paralyzed. at least he likes having his head rubbed. 13 hours a day gone to work, drive home at lunch to put the dog and cat out for 10 mins and pet them and then drive back to work. saw the endocrinologist today who said if i lost weight i would kick my diabetes. then i stopped at the store, got a pumpkin pie, drove home and ate the whole thing with the dog. i should have saved some for the cat, sorry.

  182. Otto Codingian says:

    i tried to tone down my cable/internet/phone bill yesterday. the operator said if i took off hbo, it would cost me more from their new giant trust-busting cable franchise. she said my package was $139. I said, then why is my bill $210? Fees and stuff, she said. I saw a way to figure out next year’s taxes in an article that told how the donald was going to lower taxes. the calculation said my taxes would be $4,000 more. hahahaha. i spent hours today trying to get a printer connected to the network. the little faceplate on the wall where the network cable goes in was marked wrong. I asked a fellow if he had the company’s $4,000 tool that would have solved this issue in 10 minutes. he said no, he left it at home! as he drove off with his young wife in his bmw. hahahha. hahahaha. my arm was bleeding where the cat scratched me last night or this morning. i must have brushed against it before our morning meeting at work, as it was bleeding again. i told them the cat scratched me. of course the boisterous boys took it in the most double-entendre way. hahahha. no such luck. jesus christ. thank you for such an interesting life. will i see you in heaven? hmmmm. mebbe. not.

  183. Otto Codingian says:

    too tired to cry.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I know you know all this, but I would like to make a suggestion to you. Next time you feel like munching on something you know you shouldn’t. just stop for a moment and ask:- “Do I want to kill the pain or resolve it?” We none of like pain, and will do our utmost to avoid it, but before we each of us knew better, (before reading the book), we had not other choice. Now we actually do have the choice.
      We can either go throught it (the only real way to resolve it) or we can try to go round it, with whatever device life threw up for us in those early days. Mine was sex, yours I gather is food. I also know you are willing to feel and express those feelings. You’ve more than demonstrated that very clearly on the blog. So resist that ‘munch’ a feel that fucking nasty pain. Yeah yeah!!! easier said than done.
      Sometimes, it being made public can often give us that little jolt that we know deep down we need.
      Hope I don’t offend you writing all this … but somewhere inside I care about you.


  184. Margaret says:

    it really feels bad to hear your story about the diabetes advice and the pumpkin pie.
    ask Barry’s help to go to the root of this self-destruction, please..
    diabetes can make you blind, destroy your kidneys and so much more, if a healthier diet can save you from all that, why do the opposite?
    of course you are driven by your pain, but it hurts to witness you taking so little care of that valuable person you are.
    I like you and would feel very bad when you would get ill etc.
    poor cat too, wish you would not have to inject it, it must be very hard to have to do it on a daily basis, for the both of you.
    specially by yourself, holding it and also lifting up the loose skin in his neck to inject must be difficult.
    and wrapping the cat in a towel won’t do either as you can’t inject him then.
    maybe check with the vet if those injections are really necessary or if there is some other way?
    sorry, I know you deal with it as best you can, it is just painful to imagine ..
    good you found ways to make it feel comforted, and so sweet you drive home at lunchtime for them..
    please take good care of yourself as well, pet yourself so to say, smiley, put yourself on that diet please, as much as you can..

  185. Margaret says:

    mmm, the blog is very silent..

    I have no idea how to count words of a file I write in Texteditor, on my Mac.
    the essay should not go over 1500 words, so I checked how many words there are on one line on average, and found out to my surprise one line can easily contain 15 words.
    have already about 200 lines in my first draft so will have to do some thorough weeding there!
    not easy to get rid of half of the contents while keeping a good flow and the essential information..
    the good thing is it is taking a shape, with an overview of how psychology has been regarded during the different scientific and philosophical periods.
    recently for a neopragmatist, or naturalist, named Willard van Orman Quine, psychology even became one of the main sciences providing a way to study how we learn and form our beliefs.
    a long way from being regarded as pseudo science by the early positivists.
    that view opens up more space for psychodynamic psychologies like Primal Therapy to claim their proper place.
    theoretically at least.
    a theory can now, like evolutionary psychology, also find confirmation in the converging findings of other disciplines, like neuroscience, biology, sociology, genetics, fysiology and chemistry, any science that touches common grounds of research.
    integration and communication being key words.
    a good example of crossdisciplinary usefullness is shown when a few years ago a study got a lot of attention about how heart problems are highly correlated with the lack of expression of emotion, specially anger.
    that study was actually done by a relative of someone I closely know, and appeared in international medical reviews.
    so it is not up to a psychological theory anymore to prove its own point by coming up with its own evidence, the evidence is all over the place if one searches for it.
    that is a hopeful development really.
    that should be more or less the general line of thought of my writings, but I fear it will have to be so condensed only the big lines will fit into 1500 words as I have to mention the different criteria for science etc. in history..M

  186. Margaret says:

    where is everyone?
    did anything happen behind the scene?
    so silent, everyone ok?

  187. Jack Waddington says:

    After sitting for my buddy last night, I went into that feeling again, with the convultions, or whatever they are. It was not so fightening this time (dunno why) but it lasted for over an hour.
    I did have a sense that my homosexuality started at this moment. Sort of, not feeling comfortable in the womb and later in early life, connecting that to females.

    One other factor for me is that I never went throught that phase, that many gay guys, go through, NOT liking being gay. I never disliked or had problems about being gay; my only problem was; in my youth, it was illegal to perform gay sex acts.

    I had an insight about this afterwards. I know my mother wanted me. She loved my father and was happy about her pregnacy with me.

    However, there is some element of anger connected to it somewhere. Right now I am not totally connected to that one. I suspect, though not sure, this is manifesting itself in my anger about the election outcome. I find it very undemocratic to elect a president that did NOT get the popular majority vote. It makes me ponder the wisdom of the constitutional writers. Being afraid of a ‘tyranicle majority’ and ignoring the potential of a ‘tyranical minority’. I feel was a major oversight of the “elecoral collage principle”, and should be overturned.

    One glimmer of hope, for me, is that the elecoral collage member might, just might, return the presidency to the majority voters and give it to Hillary. I find Trump to be quite terryfying … not only to the US but to the world in general. BUT, seemingly, it’s a global phenominon.

    My last thought … I am so happy about my therapy and my ability to do it on my own. I think Janov once stated that this was a factor to aim for, in ones therapy.


  188. Sylvia says:

    Hi Margaret, I’m here chasing around my curious kitties, trying to keep them out of the neighbor yard. They have been hovering over a gopher hole next to the fence with a lot of patience. I suppose they can feel the vibrations underground of the rodent tunneling.
    It seems odd doesn’t it that there is a limit on your psychology paper in that you need to say all of it to make your point. It’s like having a feeling session limited to a few minutes to fit into someone else’s rules. I could see if it were a minimum of 1500 words. No one would say that a writer could only publish 100 pages.
    Hey Jack, I was always told it was “the love of money” was the root of all evil, you know, like Trump who worships the dollar and does bad things to get it, save it and use it to feed his ego. So it’s the attitude about money that makes it evil. But I get what you are saying, it’s part of our unnatural culture, though we should attempt to control it more like in worker-controlled companies.

    No one here but us chickens.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Sylvia: I’ll take your correction, but my long time feeling that tweaking the monetrary policy actually achieves nothing. Why are we so afraid if REDICAL CHANGE????? in-spite of both Obama, and Trump stating it as their mandate … yet that very change NEVER gets addressed. Tweaking what already exist has been tried all down human neurotic time My feeling though I could be wrong:- Whilst money and all forms of exchange exist, it will NEVER be; (all those things we give ‘lip servkice’ to like:- EQUALITY. FREEDOM, LOVE OF LIFE, REAL LOVING OF OUR NEIGHBOR, RIGHTEOUSNESS, PRIVILIDGE, and on and on and on). What I find facinating is that all … and that includes you Sylvia, (don’t take it too persoannaly) have a “ready answer”. It’s a neuroitic act-out; we’re all guilty of, AND in huge denial about. If you can … attempt to give it some CONSIDERABLE thought … rather than of the two seconds to profer the ‘ready answer’, then, there’s a chance to get an insight . If you can.

      To repeat:- Neurosis came first; then all the ensuing madness, mean-ness, greed, selfishness, lack of our natural ability that we were born with, love and care … and gave this madness that is forever attempting to get resolved. It never happens, BUT there was a dicovery in 1967 that demonstrated the ONLY way to resolve it. IMO.

      Like with the psychological profession, the neurological branch of the medical profession, politics of all stripes .. we keep going down the “Alice in Wonderland” rabbit hole. Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.

      I, personally, will pursue the Gretchen option:- “get out of the box” … that we each created in those fomative years.


      • Sylvia says:

        Jack, I’m not quite clear on what you are saying. Is it I should study about the topic of money and how to abolish it or is it that everyone should acknowledge primal imprints to change the world. Not clear what you are saying.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Syvia: I’ll try to be a little clearer, if I can.

          The ready example I can make is when Copernicus first introduced the idea that we did not live on a flat earth … as was perceived by most. However, all his detractors came up with their pre-conceived notion that the earth was flat since that is how it appeared. They did not feel the need to give it more than the two second thought. It was the rest of the universe that was going around us. It was at the time the only LOGICAL notion. It took another 100 years before Galileo was able to express The Capuernucan notion a little more clear.

          The notion that money is the greatest hindrance to mankind, has been around for more than a century, with the theory proposed by Pierre Joseph Proudhon. Others followed, but they are few … then later, in the century, Karl Marx went into the history of human society and made, I contend, a phenomenal treatise. However Karl Marx took the theory a little further and attempted to suggest how it might be accomplished. It is my contention that in doing so; Marx did not understand the ‘real’ Nature of us humans. Not until Janov was that revealed.

          Once a dictatorship of the proletariat is created that dictator then does his utmost to maintain the new status quo. (a factor, I contend, of neurosis.) The ensuing “withing away of the state” in all the examples of communists revolutions and creation of a state, of that so hoped for “benevolent dictator” never occurred.

          Many ask me the ‘absurd’ question of “How would it work” like they assume that I know how it would operate (work). In effect I do not know. Just as in all traffic situation (other than obeying the Highway code) no-one dictates where anyone has to go, when they have to go, in what direction they have to go, and at what speed the have to go. Each driver is sovereign unto him/herself. Yes it’s an example of chaos … but what is so terrible about Chaos???? Hence the very question is absurd. It is a pre-requisite of the person asking the question to give it more than the two second (pre-conceived) notion. Few ever go there.

          One cannot IMO dictate how to get there: is has to evolve … after a critical mass of the population accepts the notion of abolishing ‘Government, Law and money”, eliminated. The problem; IS neurotic humans:- like as happened with Copernicus theory, DISMISS it out of hand, without any further ado. The ‘ready answer concept’ However trying to get the average neurotic Joe to think beyond his pre-conceived notion, “thinking outside the box” is a factor IMO of what CONSTITUTES neurosis..

          For now Sylvia, I am unable to make it anymore clear.


          • Sylvia says:

            Jack, I can only say I remember when I was ten having a very simple view of money and wondered why I couldn’t go up to a stranger and just ask for a dime to buy a candy bar when I left my coin purse at home. If kids ruled the world it would be a very different system.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Sylvia: I take note of your reemberances, but the folks at the time of Copernicus could and perhaps, did say the same thing.

              It’s a concept that needs to be looked into UNLESS ones intent is to stay the same.

              Not my modus operandi.


          • Patrick says:


          • Tim Gordon says:

            Is it really so absurd to ask how this money-less system of yours will work. I mean, if you are so sure that it will work, it is reasonable to assume you have some idea how.
            I don’t understand the bit about traffic. Traffic runs as smoothly as it does because we have all these rules in place; in the early days of automobiles the situation really was chaotic and many people were killed. That was why laws were made to bring order to the situation.

            • Tim Gordon says:

              Jack, I was trying to ask you those questions above. I just don’t understand quite what you mean about no laws and no money. I think you mentioned wild animals at one point; it is true that in the wild they don’t have laws or money, but they do have theft, fighting, killings, starvation and even extinction.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Tim, Quote:- “, but they do have theft, fighting, killings, starvation and even extinction.”.

                And so do we … humans. If we are not careful I feel we humans could also go extinct … and sooner than I feel most rezalize.


            • Jack Waddington says:

              Tim:: I find it a little discouraging after trying to explain that the use of the phrase “how it would work” is not the question that should be asked. I HAVE NOT A CLUE AS TO HOW IT WOULD OPERATE (WORK). therein for me is where I wish to divert from an argument, that goes into the ‘workings’ of a system without money. AND no I am not certain … I just know that the world would not blow up, or disintegrate and I also FEEL that we humans would perhaps see another way for us to live on this planet. All I am able to do is:- extrapolated it, from what I was taught.

              Money has not always been around and there was a time (actually not that long ago in terms of our human existence), when it did not exist. The only parallel I can relate it to is that no other creature uses money as a means of exchange, but they manage very well, it seems, to go on surviving. I also have ‘no clue” as to how we survived as a creature in those days of ‘yon’, and as far as I know, no-one else does either (in-spire of the study of anthropology). All I know is that we DID SURVIVE WITHOUT MONEY, since we are still here.

              I simply ask that if one is interested in researching the notion ON THEIR OWN, then it requires that one needs to “get outside ones pre-conceived notions”. Or another tack, “get out of the box” way of thinking.

              To bring it all back to Primal … where I feel the whole scientific community and especially the neuro-physiological community is STUCK, in-so-far as they are ‘reluctant’ to venture into the realm of FEELINGS. As Erron stated, it’s not according to either cognitive psychology, or science to even to QUANTIFY it. It took a genius, Arthur Janov. to go there. Had they, the neuro-physicist, cognitive psychologist, and/or scientist, been able to quantify it in the only terms they know, then and only then, would they have contemplated it.

              Hope you see what I am trying to suggest. Jack

              P.S. I find your taking my analogy of the traffic situation of:- “no-one deciding when, where how or at what speed, and diverting it into “the highway code context. J

              • Tim Gordon says:

                Jack, I know you enjoy writing on here, using your computer and accessing the internet. If there is no money how would you get your internet service? Or the electricity to make it work?

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Tim: another absurd question. Think about it, if you will… The internet does not run on money it runs, if I have it correct, on electrons and/or electricity. I contend you are indulging “crooked thinking”. Patrick is another, that seems to have no desire to read any of the books I suggest. That’s fine by me, BUT these books do let others know from whence my thinking is derived..

                  Money is implemented for the sake of profit. Were profit to disappear and/or money was abolished, the internet would not evaporate. It would still be there for All of us , you me and the rest of society, to use … at will. The Marxian notion … “take what you need and give whatever you so desire”. I doubt that most of us would spend a lifetime contemplating our naval … too boring, I feel.

                  I seem not to get across to you since, I feel you’ve got it all sorted out in your left lobe thinking part of the brain. I am asking you to investigate a whole other avenue. However, it seem you either wish to ignore my suggestion, OR it does not register with you? I’m not sure which.

                  If you truly wanted to investigate all this TRY reading Pierre Joseph Proudhon, Kropotkin, Bakunin, and even Engels. Karl Marx , if you were to read him also disseminated “capitalism, the major trapping that we humans chose to live within. All are worth reading if you wish to do some self investigating. You don’t have to if you would rather not, BUT I feel you’ll never see either where I come form, OR understand my reasoning. That’s fine by me, but you seemingly want an answer as to how it all works? I thought I’d answered that question.

                  Another book I feel is worth reading is “Straight and Crooked Thinking” by Robert Henry Thouless. I gather you are NOT into investigating it, but would rather wish to argue with me from, I feel, your perspective. I have stated, I thought, I have no desire to argue from THAT perspective. I have another one.


  189. Margaret says:

    hi Linda,
    I suppose the examiner wants to limit what he has to read and correct, smiley..
    but yes, it is not that many words really if you want to make a point .
    have now the draft, and wil try later on if I can keep the basics and still get it to the right format , first focus now on trying to remember all those philosophers and the details of their opinions and views, sigh..
    interesting to read but another issue if you have to know the little details of who said what and when and why and specially how, as they often say more or less the same but in different ways, ha!
    crossed my mind to send my entire text and pretend not to know it was too long, but then noticed a warning that they do not read the papers that do not have the proper format…

    another challenge in other words.

    today there was some kind of joined birtheday party at the care home for those of november, and it was fun, birthday cake, wine, water, tea, coffee, and a guy playing old songs on a harmonica and people singing along, my mom dancing again as well, it was fun really.
    on her birthday in two weeks we organize another party!
    off to bed now, am tired, the weather here is stormy, with rain, real fall weather, so nice to be in bed and listen to the wind, I always liked that sound as a child already, the wind in the trees, felt like a presence, some kind of wild giant natural entity feeling like some kind of friendly company.
    the breath of nature?
    without putting those words on it then, I realize myself now how it felt, and somehow still feels like a living something, that wind, with its sound.
    specially when blowing through trees..
    will you keep all the kitties Sylvia?
    Otto’s cat is on my mind, and him and Otto the dachshund as well of course..

  190. Phil says:

    It sounds like that feeling is touching on something huge.
    I’m still upset about the election results too.
    What I’m reading now is that maybe the polls were correct but very late deciding voters mostly went to Trump, especially in those important Midwest swing states he won. The FBI meddling might have had something to do with it.
    I’m afraid that the electors who will cast the actual votes for the electoral college are loyal party regulars picked for that very reason, so there’s little chance they will do something radical like not voting for Trump.
    I have to remind myself that quite a few of the issues at risk don’t really apply so much to me or my family. I have a job, good health insurance, I’m not an illegal immigrant, and no one in the family has to worry about an abortion (as far as I know). Climate change and the environment are, however vey important issues, and Trump is a denier. I saw today that Stephen Hawking thinks we have another 1000 years left on this planet, and should find another one sooner than that. I think he’s wrong. We have maybe 100 or 200 years at best, there are just too many problems. We need a miracle, but I don’t believe in them.
    I might travel this Saturday to attend a anti-Trump demonstration. It will take place in an area not far from my childhood home. We can take a look and maybe some other places too.

  191. Sylvia says:

    Yes, Margaret, the wind at night has a life of its own–so true, like the tides and the moon remind us of its force around us. Sounds like your mom had a good time and is happy. Happy mom equals happy family.
    The kitties are pretty much grown, the biggest is ten lbs. He is my dog’s favorite because it lets him lick its ears. The other male I helped with an eye infection when he was 5 weeks so we have a special bond. The female is sweet but doesn’t take any guff from the boys and hisses when they get too rough with her. There are times when I try to get my neighbor to take one when they act up but I would miss them. It would have to be an ideal situation of helping someone to have a companion and they could keep the kitty inside at night if I would give one away.

    I feel for Otto too. When one of my pets gets sick it brings up such helplessness in me.
    Sleep tight and enjoy the mighty wind.

  192. Phil says:

    I got to some deep stuff starting with how I feel about the elections results. It just feels all wrong and crazy. Angry feelings and the connection seems to be how my mother was crazy, how she treated me. I wanted my father to fix things so they wouldn’t be like that. Sad feeling with that and recalling good things I got from him, and hardly anyone else.
    Also seeing how my old feelings can leave me a little rigidly stuck with my ideas and opinions.

    • Sylvia says:

      Phil, funny how repressed feelings can hide the good stuff too like the good things with your father. Me too, I can see more of the good that happened with the bad feelings out of the way. Good insight for you about rigidity.

      I feel a little different and changed too after the disappointing election. Don’t know if the bad dread of the future clicked in from dread of being an ill little baby, but it seemed very early. I’m having more childhood memories of things and events, not all bad, but just how it felt to be seven or eight. That is sort of a signpost for me that I’ve had a feeling–the next day I’ll have memories of grade school playing some game at recess or Phys. ed. or doing something with the family. Big feeling kind of shocks the memory to open up.

    • Larry says:

      Phil that’s great that you had the insight about how old feelings can leave us rigidly stuck with our ideas and opinions, and scary to think how much old feelings about Mommy and Daddy influenced the outcome of the election without people knowing it, getting into polarized political stances without finding out and talking about what in their lives makes them feel drawn to one candidate or the other. I read an analysis that people are more and more withdrawing into ideological self-reinforcing bubbles, demonizing those outside, getting to know them less, less seeing common ground in our shared humanity and working together despite differences.

  193. Otto Codingian says:

    The dirth of love and romance throughout my life is hitting me hard and there is nothing i can do about it. except stop watching those damn romantic movies that i happen across from time to time. I feel really bad about it. cant cry though, all i can do is let it well up a little. nothing to be done. missed out on that stuff.

  194. Otto Codingian says:

    that was barbara stanwyck and henry fonda (lady eve). oyh i am crfying. why?

  195. Otto Codingian says:

    i am not sure but i dont think my wife was able to love me because of her loveless childhood. maybe i am mixed up. dont tell anyone. soon i must give the cat his meds and i dont have the will to do it.

  196. Otto Codingian says:

    or it is just my mother-loss that confuses me and gets in the way of everything. don’t know.

  197. Otto Codingian says:

    just for clarification, it was the affection she showed mr. fonda that sticks in my mind. she was all over him with her hands, warm and cozy and loving. goodnight.

  198. Larry says:

    Knowing that a married couple my age who I recently made acquaintances with would be there and invited me to sit with them, helped me overcome my anxieties and got me to a dance last weekend. Being with them helped anchor me. Otherwise I would have run away from the dance soon after arriving, feeling too alone and feeling to frightened of seeing how alone I am. Because I felt anchored with them, I felt relatively comfortable to get up and ask ladies to dance who I had never met before and who seemed to not have a partner. Most were much younger than me. The first one, early in the evening, was only in her twenties and very attractive, yet so pleased to be asked to dance. The rest of the evening I saw all the young fellas dancing with her, while I focused my prospects on others closer to my age, though most were still quite younger. It was a nice surprise when a woman (in a relationship) close to my age, from my dance class, found me and asked me to dance. Near the end of the evening, it was an unexpected nice surprise when that first young woman came and asked ME for a dance. Then, toward the end of the evening as I was readying to leave, a young woman across the table from me who I had danced several times with that evening remarked that she had not seen me at the dances before and that I should come to them often, that it is fun, and that I shouldn’t be afraid to ask. That blew my mind. It had turned out to be such an uplifting evening for me. What a waste of my life caused by my self-limiting anxieties and doubt rooted all the way to childhood.

    Ballroom dance class Sept to March, and monthly dances, challenge me to get out socially and help me through long dark cold winter nights. Each year that I do the classes the patterns become easier to learn, I become more confident in being able to do them and the classes more fun. Also I feel less afraid of the ladies, less needing to be in a relationship with someone and more able to just enjoy being with them. It feels good to be able to just enjoy their company, and it feels good that they don’t mind or even better they like my company. There are a few ladies and several guys without partners in the class. There is one young woman in particular, at about my level of skill or lack of it, who just by her easy personal confidence and relaxed non-judgemental ever present smile dispels my anxiety and brings out the best in my dancing when with her. My brain tunes into balanced rhythmic memory mind body co-ordination and surprising easy unspoken physical dance intercommunication while the patterns we learned seamlessly tie together and we smile and have fun learning and dancing together. I think one of the reasons for our easy connection is because there is no sexual tension. She is much taller than me, and heavier, and too much younger, for there to be any likelihood of a romantic relationship. So for now we have fun just dancing together. For me it’s liberating to know we can enjoy and be comfortable with each other as dance friends (acquaintances really) and know that no more is expected. She asked me and was pleased to learn that I bought my ticket to the dinner and dance happening in a little more than a week, and that my choice was to be seated with the class, as will she. Instead of having to force myself to go, I’m actually looking forward to this dance, knowing she will be there. I hope the other single ladies in the class are brave enough to go.

    Early this morning I rode my bicycle to work (7 kilometers or about 5 miles), in the dark, my lights flashing my presence, dodging occasional icy patches, mostly through residential streets and bike paths, and through 4 traffic light controlled intersections. It was a challenge I wanted to test whether I could meet. I had to dress for the cold. It was -8 C (17.6 F), feeling like -15 C (5 F) with the wind chill. Being outdoors in the cold and low light this time of year reminds me of childhood. When I arrived at work, my fingertips were numbed to the point of non-feeling. I will have to find a way to keep them warm, possibly a small heat generating gel pack in each mitt, if I hope to do this in the weeks ahead as the freeze deepens. I intend to get studded tires for my bike.

    I have lots of accumulated overtime and vacation time to use up before I retire. Taking the afternoon off, I rode home at noon. I knew a feeling was near and ripening, because though functioning fine at work, the past couple of days I felt more and more broken and vulnerable within, needing people to see and shelter my hurt though of course they did not know my hurting. As the weak afternoon light waned, I felt more and more empty being alone at home. The fading light of cold late November reminded me of an aloneness of childhood, when Mom would sometimes have to go help Dad milk cows in the barn, leaving us children alone in the darkening house. I recognize that then I felt a disquieting aloneness that I tried to dispel, but that this time I let sink in.

    Late in the afternoon alone at home I cried saying good-bye to my wife. I’m still unable to feel all of the hurt of losing her. As I let go of her forever, in the vacuum of her leaving I feel such a void deep and broad. I feel there should have been others close in my life from whom I would have found understanding, empathy, compassion, warmth, love, a sense and history of deep meaningful connections to help anchor and bridge me through my loss and healing and into a new life without her, but after being with her then losing her the feeling deep and profound is that for most of my life before there never was. I connect with childhood. I was just a little boy. I wasn’t going to bite. I just needed a hug, and I neeeeeded to hug them. Cry. Cry. Cry. Cry.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: very sad to read. my heart goes out to you.

      Meantime, you do have understanding and empathy on this blog. That’s something … though, never enough.


    • Phil says:

      They should have been there for you in your childhood, it’s very sad that they were so unaware.
      The way you write about your experiences is so descriptive and articulate it pulls me right along to the end with little effort on my part.

    • David says:

      Larry, thanks for this, it made me reflect on my own dance class which I haven’t been to for quite a bit. The last time I went, even though I enjoyed myself I felt very wobbly at the end and it resulted in a blip in my recovery. I can never resist the temptation to really go for it in the dance and that has cost me, energy wise. I’m feeling somewhat more robust these days, so might be time to put a toe back in the water. I agree that past realities can cloud over our awareness of what is possible for us to receive in the present if we take the necessary steps.

      • Larry says:

        David, there are times when it is hard for me to keep at the dancing, when Saturday dance after Saturday dance I just can’t go to them, and I’m glad for the break when classes end in March until September, when even though monthly Saturday dances continue through the summer I fade out and don’t go to them. I seem to need the reprieve from always pushing myself. And then toward September I look forward to resuming class, and am encouraged to discover that I’ve grown some confidence since last year’s class. I understand why you would need a reprieve from dance class. I hope you can go back off and on and get something out of it.

  199. Margaret says:

    It seems I have accidentally written ‘Linda’ instead of Sylvia, so sorry about that..
    too much philosophy occupying my weary brain cells maybe..

  200. Margaret says:

    Copernicus was not that right either, as he regarded the sun as the centre of the universe.
    of course that was a great shift already from the religious connotations sticking to the earth being the centre, and us humans created to god’s image..

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I agree, but as you stated he did shift the notion, of us on this earth as being the center of it all.

      We are stuck, for the most part with old old notions, and seemingly unwilling to to contemplate new ideas … except in certain circumstances. I feel Arthur Janov’s discovery falls into the same situation … in-spite of it’s initial enthusiasm.

      We revere old writings (religious texts like the Torah, Bible, and Koran). for no better reason, it seems, than the are old texts. Considering our scientific progress (if that what it is) the peoples of yon were pretty ignorant about a lot of it. Religion, as I see it was a neurotic means to explain the inexplicable.

      The real question was did we need ANY explanation????? My greatest contention is that the only thing we can be absolutely sure of is “what we feel”. All else is ‘up for grabs’


  201. Margaret says:

    it is heartbreaking to picture you arriving back home after having lived with your aunt and then craving the simple comfort of a hug and not getting it. it is such a sad lonely image thinking of that little boy .

  202. Larry says:

    Jack, Phil, Margaret, I appreciate your responses. They help make real my past and it’s effect on me, that I tend to diminish to avoid looking at. Jack yes I do appreciate this blog. To know that now I have connection and support of real, human people in my life helps me to descend to the feelings of childhood when I felt there was no one in the universe for me and I that had to do life alone. Very hard to face and accept. Thank you all for being there.

  203. Larry says:

    A group of photographers who I know and sometimes associate with, along with make-up artists, volunteer at this time of year to do group or individual portraits for free of people who want it. “Perhaps they have never had a family photo before,” a reporter said. “Perhaps they can’t afford a family photo.” “We’ve gotten laughter, smiles, tears,” he said. “Some people cry because they’ve never seen their family looking so good.”

    The following video of the event made me cry. I cry at the goodness of my friends helping others in the community to feel good in such a simple way. I’m touched by how much a portrait means to people, by how much people who can’t afford it cherish it, by how it shows how much people mean to each other. I cry feeling sad at how little I wanted to be in a portrait, how little importance I gave it, but deep down how much I wanted the bond of togetherness with my family and how much I wanted to feel it and show it in a portrait of us together that I would cherish and keep, but instead how isolated and numb I felt. The only portrait that I have that I cherish is of my wife and I.

  204. Larry says:

    To see it, please scroll down the facebook page a little to a video titled

    “A little taste of what’s to come on Saturday”

    Watching it again, seeing how much the participants treasure being together, I cried in realizing how uncomfortable I felt to have to pose with my family for a photo. I just did not feel like I belonged. I felt that the family photo conveyed a lie. I feel so sad that I didn’t feel more attached to my family. I’m crying at how closed off I felt from them. There is so much crying to do, so much painful truth to wake up to.

  205. Jo says:

    When you wrote ” I seem to need the reprieve from always pushing myself” it resonates exactly how I feel about tennis. It is my favourite thing, good for me socially, fit-wise, fresh air etc… I play doubles with fun women at least 3 times a week…yet by the weekend, when I could have a chance to play social mixed doubles (and potentially increase the amount of men I’d meet) I feel all my efforts to socialise are used up, and I want down time.

    Meanwhile, well done you …. finding the surprise and pleasure of connection when you do push through and go to your events!

  206. Margaret says:

    Larry, that sounds like an interesting book!
    thanks for the tip. M

  207. Margaret says:

    I saved the information about that book about cognitive science and emotion.
    shit, haha, I really assumed I did have an original idea, or well, hoped it would be kind of original…

    on the other hand it is very good to find out that idea is already growing and backed up by proper scientists I will be able to read and quote.
    and of course the final goal is to not only emphasize the value of emotion in general for me, but more so the possibility of healing through the primal process, and becoming more aware and more in control.
    am now going through the part of my course of philosophy on the Open University website once more, and phew, my laptop got stuck, badly, could not do much anymore, even switching it off was refused at some point.
    finally after some stress I did manage to restart it, remembering the setting of the keyboard shifts back automatically to azerty instead of qwerty during the start up as on former occasions that made my password get rejected.
    so now, using other keys to get the same letters, it did work after some frustrating attempts.
    I think the update I did with my Iphone also affected the laptop as after restarting some new options appeared and some changes had occurred…

    IT is nice, but asks its toll to be paid as well, smiley with clenched teeth!
    back on track now with my good old Mac Book Air, a very trustworthy hard worker and companion really.

  208. Margaret says:

    haha, thanks, smiley i think we primalers all are in some way exploring a fascinating new field.

  209. Thank you Tim, your comment about my having been called a bitch really touched me. I really appreciate that. Gretch

  210. Margaret says:

    Jack, now you seem to be doing what I could call a ‘Patrick’ with Tim, blaming the person for not agreeing with your views.
    or his left lobe, which in itself makes no sense as we use both our lobes for literally everything, a bit more or less on the left or right side, but never ever one lobe for one function.
    the whole idea about left and rigt might have to do with so called male funtions like space perception etc. to be mostly centered in the right lobe. but otherwise I really do not see where the whole distinction would be based upon.
    intellectual processing is if you want to pick a brain area, needing a lot of activity from the front lobe, which is both left and right as the mame suggest.
    even specialized functions like speech always have some counterpart on both sides of the brain, while there can be of course one main area on one side.

    and apart from worrying about an internet connection, without money I fear we would mostly worry about not starving or not being killed for whatever food or worthwhile goods we would be able to obtain.
    I could imagine a world without money somehow but that would need a tremendous organisation first, and knowing humankind soon all kind of trading or exchanging would occur even if it would be illegal.
    excahnging seems part of our evolutionary blueprint which is good up to some point.
    and what about if I scratch your back you scratch mine? exchange!!
    now in an ideal community one could imagine everything being smoothly organized with everyone from time to time having to do the unpleasant but necessary chores like cleaning up public restrooms, like without money who would ever volunteer for such a thing?
    we are far too many to let it all happen on its own terms, that would simply be chaos and disaster and a return to the system of warlords and anarchy of a bad form.
    in my opinion.
    not that I would applaude limits on the amount of money one person or even group of persons can gather, a basic income for everyone and a maximum as wel seem fair.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I can only put back to what you put to me some few posts back. “That’s your feeling” It sure ain’t mine. I read yesterday the latest blog article of Janov’s and I marvel at his brilliance.

      I’ll try to make this short, AND state my current feeling.

      We lived for meillenium way before we came up with science and seemingly we survived. At some stage we humans became neurotic. How why or when, is a guessing game. Then, after we became neurotic we started on a path, that brought about religion, then, since that didn’t quite cut it, we tried figuring out “why” and called it science, then we started to ponder the meaning of life and called it philosophy. Now we have Donald Trump. 🙂 😦


      • Tim Gordon says:

        Jack, May I say it seems ironic that you dismiss other people’s thoughts as “feelings”; if ever there was an idea transparently driven by a “feeling” it appears to be yours about abolishing money.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Tim: You ‘may say all you like’. (I don’t own the blog) My feeling, for what it is worth to others is:- IT’S ALL FEELINGS. There is nothing else. Just MY feeling … no one else’… apparently.

          If you FEEL that I was dismissing your your feeling; so-be-it.

          It appeared to me, you wanted an answer to the question:- “How would it work”. I tried to respond to what FELT (just ME, that is all)/ I felt the QUESTION was absurd.


          • Tim Gordon says:

            Jack, “absurd”?
            “Absurd, adj wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate”.
            “Absurd means utterly opposed to truth or reason”.
            (First 2 definitions that came up)

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Tim: Yep, that is my feeling “absurd”. Lest you feel I was saying YOU were absurd … that is not what I said, or was implying. Many have asked that very same question. Why, if you wish for me to further explain MY FEELING, as to why it is “absurd? is because NO-ONE and I mean just that … no-one knows how it would manifest itself (“work” to use your word)

              I get a sence that some others feel I was dissmissing you, or your sentiments.


              • errona says:

                Jack, I get a sense that most of the people who read about your rants on money are just shaking their head at the non-workability of it.

                One of my earliest memories is going to a party when I was three years old with my parents. I asked them what was going on (it was some kind of fundraiser) and they told me there would be all sorts of goodies (sweets etc.) for sale. I remember a feeling of deep anger at the fact that they weren’t just giving stuff away. Over the years I’ve seen why stuff isn’t just given away. Sorry mate, but your obsession with the idea of money seems infantile, and you ought to stop shooting the many messengers trying to point this out.

                I believe the Neanderthals were one of the earliest examples of a non-moneyed “civilisation”. Not sure I’d want to go back and live with them though 🙂


                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Erron: I don’t doubt that is perhaps what is taking place: BUT I don’t feel it should prevent me from voicing my feeling/opinion/or what you will, on the matter.

                  The only defensive statment I would add to your post is:- If most indeed feel it is:- “non-workability of it ” That’s their/your prerogative. AND I have no problem with anyone having that feeling.

                  Many have had the same feeling about money as I have. My “gripe” if that’s the way most feel about it is to:- ‘rarely give more than the two seconds to dismiss it’ and see it as:- “idea of money seems infantile”. Again; that’s your feeling.

                  I don’t think, Or beleive your suggestion “I believe the Neanderthals were one of the earliest examples of a non-moneyed “civilisation”. is correct, BUT I can in no way prove it.. However, if it bothers you that I ‘rant’ on about it. I feel you should state that All else, for and to me is ‘the blame game’.


                  • errona says:

                    Sorry Jack, suffering here at the moment (unwell physically and feelings-wise) and that post was a bit harsh. Not sure I can put it any better except to say for me, the revulsion at the idea of money seems to be connected with not having my needs met naturally, no questions asked, and without having to pay for that in any way.


                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      Erron: No problem; and I admire you for making the apology.. I too grew up relatively poor where there was little money. Food, yes cos my father worked for a grocery stood. As feelings go, I hate money and all the trappings involved with it.

                      I hope you are feeling better soon. Jack

  211. Margaret says:

    I see your point.
    but the heart of my question is why would a word like science not apply to a theory and therapy like primal therapy, even if it works with concepts that are hard to measure in a direct way?
    Freuds so called impossible to prove concept of the subconscious was actually proven to be existing in an indirect way by the priming effect in experimental settings.
    there must be many ways in which the effects of primal therapy and theory can be supported by using interdisciplinary and other corroborating and converging evidence.
    does that in the end not make a theory, when shown to be working and solid, also earning the right to be accepted as belonging to the field of science?
    again I use the evolutionary psychology who integrates so many different disciplines to form a big solid theory which is constantly checked and adjusted and growing?
    my point is actually the label, or criterium about what belongs to science should not be too narrow and certainly not dismissing theories in advance for still being in the phase of gathering more evidence, while already in practice proving to work in various ways that confirm the theoretical starting points.
    the measurability seems now to have more importance than the real practical experiences and that seems off balance..
    it is the attitude that makes the ‘regular’ scientists feel free to look down and sometimes ridicule these valuable theories which does not seem healthy to me.
    developing theories should be welcomed and investigated instead of being ignored and dismissed, as also happened at first with evolutionary science, which was referred to as a telltale mock science, but which now has gained general support.
    economics too has completely changed including findings of psychology and sociology and even neuroscience and biology.
    integration, an open mind, and no petty guarding a neopositivistic concept of what science should be like , full of measurable data from the very start before it is even worth to be looked at. that is far to narrow-minded and exclusive.
    science should be dynamic and as one philosopher, forgot who, said, messy. especially human sciences or social sciences that include complex and often unexpected variables.
    i think I feel like protesting against the rigidity that still seems like a neopositivist leftover influence, like no statistical data, no science, which seems well, not right.

    • Larry says:

      Scientists are just people, Margaret, with beliefs, blind spots, biases, but also with careers built upon a certain viewpoint that they devote their lives toward expounding. At least some scientists try to be open minded to what seem like radical views, but most stay within the comfortable fold of the accepted paradigm. They have to win research grants after all. I think it usually takes someone young with a fresh mind and a boldness with not much to lose yet, or someone very confident and well respected and established in their career yet willing to take risks, to break outside of accepted views.

      I get and agree with what you are saying, but from the extent and force of what you write, I also get the sense and wonder whether you have a strong primal feeling leaking out of being ignored. I concede that I’m maybe being simplistic and maybe I’m off base. Just saying what comes glaring out at me from what you write. Perhaps it’s not useful though for me to share it. Perhaps I’m babbling on because I’ve been unable to sleep.

  212. Sylvia says:

    Larry, if I may duck in here for a moment like a meddling neighbor, I too have that habit of defending Primal. It’s a tried and true method and means so much to me and wonder why people are so resistant to it and it bothers me too and I feel that I’m not going to be listened to, a definitely old primal feeling.

    Daniel said that primal pain could not be subjectively measured because it is unconscious. I would just like to add that if it (pain) is repressed it can be measured by its defenses and how we repress, I.e., drinking, high blood pressure, act-outs. But once it is felt and we are in it or through it, I think we can measure it on a one to ten scale, like ten being ‘man that feeling was devastating.’

    Lastly in the realm of statistics, I’ve heard when an insurance company is considering if it will cover or pay for certain psychological treatments it wants to know if the therapy can improve or change a person, measured by whether he/she can get along better with co-workers, have they stopped drinking, do they sleep better, etc.
    All righty then.

  213. Margaret says:

    I am sure there is always some primal feeling leaking out somewhere with me, smiley, but in this case I feel what prevails is the genuine concern about primal therapy and its value, a great value as it did a lot for me, which I don’t want to be ignored or even ridiculed by some in the field of psychology.
    it means a lot to me, and that is nice as it makes it kind of exciting to think and write about it, makes putting the essay together pleasurable.
    of course an everlasting old feeling of mine is needing to be seen and heard, but in this case my drive feels kind of fairly healthy to myself.
    and hearing about that book you mentioned is nice, as it seems other think in the same direction, that in the large cognitive area of today’s psychology emotions and their impact are mostly ignored, almost like some kind of irrational or unwanted side effect.
    and as Daniel stated, they are harder to quantify but not impossible if only for corroborations sake. like Popper said, to be science, falsificability should be enough, it does not need to be put through the test yet, as long as one can think of a way to falsify the theory it can be classified as science.
    but nowadays that guideline seems to be replaced by the demand of quantitative experiments with statistical evaluation, before the settled establishment even wants to look at something.
    and that can lead to narrowsightedness after a while, is the point I would like to make in my little essay.
    after all my entire course is about science philosophy and its criteria and how htey have evolved up to now.
    and what our personal opinion is, which of course brings me to the primal issue and why it has a hard time to get the proper attention and credit it deserves.
    and not only primal, in some textbooks as I said, all psychodynamic approaches are talked about in a very casual kind of way.
    you might pick up on this being an important topic for me, not my attention but the atttention for the primal notion that matters to me and forms an integral part of my life.

    today on the reunion I had some stimulating conversations, with computer teachers and new staff members, who wanted to hear about how my study goes and which hurdles there are, as they teach to people who lose or lost their eyesight and they are very happy with me doing so well after having had their suppport.
    that too is invaluable, so important, while our government threatens to stop subsidizing it altogether.
    I told them I would love to be of help whenever they want to hear how I work with my software and the special adaptations etc. for statistics.
    they might also be able to help me to find a goo d volunteer job.
    it is nice to get some positive feedback, I feel how it is healing in a way, to be validated from time to time and to be able to offer something to people who are doing a good job already.
    stimulating afternoon.

  214. Margaret says:

    Larry, as I am not sure what made you say feelings seemed to be leaking out, I wondered if maybe what I wrote to Jack made you feel that way, but what I wrote to Jack was a reaction to what he wrote to Tim, just felt like clarifying that.
    I was very nicely impressed to by what Tim said about respect and the bitch thing.
    on one hand it felt bad not to react and on the other hand I felt it might be best to ignore all that crazy ranting but still I felt so pleased with Tims very to the point response.
    so Jacks left lobe stuff felt like just criticism for the sake of it, for not agreeing .
    but all of this might not have to do anything with what you wrote of course.
    I did like your long comment about science and statistics etc.
    well worded overview of the state of affairs!

  215. Margaret says:

    ha neighbour Sylvia, meddle away as much as you want, smiley!
    and isn’t it nice come to think of it, to feel so sure about the benefits of the primal process? it feels like a luxury to not have any doubts about the fact it does really work.
    getting carried on a wave of early primal feeling is all it takes to know from the inside how real and healing it is.
    and there must be plenty of ways to measure brain and body markers before,during, and after primal feelings, to come up with changes. but of course that needs time and opportunity.
    i for one would not object at all to be filmed and tested during my therapy, but that is not the case for everyone, understandably so.
    demanding the same standards as for experimental settings for this kind of therapy before seriously looking at it, is unreasonable.
    there is an obvious shift in science philosophy towards that view, as like I say, the emphasis on all that measuring and testing as a prerogative to be taken seriously to start with, is gradually shifting towards a more integrative study with corroborating evidence coming from other disciplines.
    well, at least for the philosophers focusing on science and its criteria.
    and that seems a very good evolution as for most of us primal does deserve to be getting some credits, or not?
    at least in the States it is recognized as a proper therapy and even subsidized by medical insurances.
    in Belgium I am ashamed to say, so far psychotherapy is not even part of the medical insurance system so far, although it finally seems to be on the way to change.
    so far anybody here can call themselves therapist , that too will change at some point.
    but so, for now anyone needing therapy has to pay the full amount..
    ahead on some levels, like euthanasia, but far back on other domains…

  216. Larry says:

    Meddle as you see fit, Sylvia. No one owns the thread. 🙂 Interesting points that you made.

    I guess Margaret it is my own experience that makes me wonder whether you are “leaking”. There was a time when I could not tolerate attitudes that downplayed Primal Therapy. I felt that in the therapy I was finally being heard, and anyone who dismissed the therapy dismissed me. Nowadays though, my sense of self-worth is more robust and I don’t feel so attacked when someone attacks the therapy. I don’t need to struggle to defend it against them. I just figure they are ignorant and eventually their ignorance will show when Primal Therapy goes more mainstream.

    Einstein’s theory of relativity is a hallmark of modern science and was lauded from the beginning, even though it predicted strange things that couldn’t be proven until a hundred years later when instruments were built that could collect the needed measurements. Why should Primal Theory be held to different standards of acceptance?

    Primal theory is similarly a groundbreaking theory, but maybe much more difficult for experimenters to jump in and test perhaps because maybe you have to do the therapy to really understand the meaning of the theory.

    Anyway, it sounds to me like the authors of your textbooks are pretty narrow minded and shouldn’t be writing textbooks.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: I totally agree with your sentiments in this last blog comment. The main statement for me, you made was that “I felt that in the therapy I was finally being heard, and anyone who dismissed the therapy dismissed me”. It is, as I see it, that even we patients go through our feelings and progress in therapeutic terms; tend to FEEL dismissing Primal Therapy, is dismissing themselves. I feel that is a point worth noting.

      The current example was, for me, Margaret feeling that I was doing a Patrick number on Tim.

      According to Robert Henry Thouless, he considers just that “crooked thinking” … in-so-far as that is not what was stated, BUT that is what was read into it.


      • errona says:

        You know, this frustration and rage at not being heard, is I suspect behind certain election results.

        Because we all have these feelings from growing up with unresponsive and/or rejecting parents. When you layer that with current day circumstances of having lost your job to globalisation, and seeing people you feel are less deserving than yourself, overtaking you, it must build into an incredible rage based on the old feelings.

        And since you can’t express that anger publicly without being humiliated or rejected as a racist/misogynist/insert pejorative, you save it all up for the one entity who is a captive audience, who will not only listen to you but act on your feelings and expressed wishes: the ballot box.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Erron: I found that to be right on, and my feeling also.

          In my case it was a daddy that had all the answers; yet that is not how it registered to the little me.

          I suppose that’s why I have an unutterable dislike of Trump; he’s symbolic of MY daddy.


          • Patrick says:

            OMG how ‘profound’ is that and ‘original’ too. OMG ‘insights’ breaking out all over the place. I wonder what earth shaking ‘revelation’ is next…………….this is truly the ‘cutting edge’ of ……………something. Not sure what but i HAVE heard it a thousand times before………….

  217. Daniel: I noticed your earlier comment suggesting the possibility that there is no such thing as an unconscious mind. Isn’t this provocative idea just as blasphemous towards the psychiatric community as saying to religious people that there is no God or saying to spiritual people that there is no such thing as a soul or hereafter? It seems as these three groups depend on their respective central objects as fonts to draw upon in the hopes of long-term self-improvement (eg. Primals, prayers, meditations).

    Maybe I will deny all of the above and burn all the literature I possess in my soft sciences category so I can start anew, then.

    • Daniel says:

      Guru: For me, and I think for anyone who at one point took a personal therapy seriously, the unconscious is very real. But this realness is, still, the provocative idea rather than the absence of such unconscious. Although they have experiments showing it the mere concept is still a narcissistic wound – e.g, it is not I who control things even in myself – the second such wound suffered by humanity after Copernicus showed the world does not revolve around us.

      By the way, psychiatry and academic psychology actually hate all those concepts that cannot be measured, such as the unconscious or primal pain for that matter, and therefore for a very long time now vehemently object to therapies that base themselves on it.

      On another matter, I feel the need to write some of my thoughts about Trump but still can’t figure out exactly what I want to say or how to say it.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Daniel: It is my feelng that Donald Trump may still not make it to the White House. It could easily be that the Electoral Collage members even those that are Republican are very squeamish about Trump assuming the presidency. Each day more and more is revealed about his unperdictability … for all that; he’s lying low for the moment.

        My feeling on the larger scale is that not only could he NOT make America great again, but actually distroy it. Empire come and Empires go and America has just about outlived it’s power. For a nation that brags of democracy (presumably implying the MAJORITY of the voters to give the election to the one that LOST the popular vote … will resinate throughout the world as an hypocrical message.

        It is my hope … slender as it may seem … that the Elecortoral Collage will not give him, when they vote on the 19th December, the 270 votes he needs to assume the presidency. If that were to happen, I feel Donald will show his true colors and go into a semi psychotic ferver.

        I feel he is a disaster ‘waiting to happen’ and even those that voted for him, will realise he was not going to cater to their needs … only wanting their vote … thereafter doing his will.

        We’ll see Jack

      • Daniel: Would it be fair to say that academic psychology has grown to hate that which cannot be measured? Back in the halcyon days of Freud, Perls, Jung, etc. weren’t concepts which weren’t easily measured actually celebrated then? And that the psych community has only grown to hate ephemeral concepts in response to increasing outside pressures from the halls of academia and higher learning for scientific validity in order to maintain a steadfast presence as a formal discipline in said institutions?

        Aside from personal interest in the power of incomplete information, I’ve been away from studying any form of psychology for a long time so I’m really rusty here. Where my own interest is concerned, I can only say that surface linguistics (verbal and written) appears to be the only way to observe what a person knows and/or doesn’t know. This is not to say there aren’t readily observable behavioral patterns elsewhere in the field.

        One final note, I do think the loss of personal control can also be attributable to forces outside oneself in the modern, conventional sense (ie. not necessarily how our parents treated us). Good examples would be increasing overall economic pressures from globalization, automation, and wealth inequality. The prevailing danger here being that the individual can mischaracterize a loss of control as a biological failing rather than psychosocial (or socioeconomic, for that matter). This was a serious problem I ran into when I was younger, which is why I mention it now.

  218. Jack Waddington says:

    Just sat for a buddy of mine who got into some very deep, deep feeling. There was no need for me to say a word, but to just listen, and I closed my eyes and then I too went into those convulssion feelings (or whatever they are). The only word when I came out of it is:- unutterably confusing … but even that does not really sound right. It’s pure, pure sensation. I suppose it doesn’t really have a name.


  219. Phil says:

    I’ve been seeing a lot of talk of secession, moving, or joining Canada because of the impending Trump presidency and the nasty things which will be coming. The northeast and west coast could join Canada if they will have us. Although Trump is a product of NY, he can stay in Washington or at any of his many gulf courses or hotels. I don’t consider him my president-elect anyway.
    Another idea; maybe a new Primal Country could be founded. The Casa de Maria or equivalent property could be purchased, and after that, money eliminated in the new nation.
    What a life style….waiting for that bell to ring and strolling over for a delicious meals 3 times a day, enjoying the pool and tennis court, and emptying out accumulated primal pain at group everyday, and no Trump to be concerned with. Sleeping arrangements might need to be improved but that could be worked out.
    I can’t see why anyone would worry about letting a small group of crazies secede.

    • Phil: Trump has chosen a far right-wing group of crazies to lead his national security team on top of the fact that Trump will also be only a few feet away from the United States’ nuclear emergency satchel at all times 24/7. A trained soldier carries the 45-pound package next to the sitting President wherever he goes. If Trump wanted to do so, he could order a nuclear missile strike anywhere in the world anytime he wanted to and no one could stop him unless there is a military coup right there on the spot. How likely is this to happen with a far-right leaning national security team? Zilch.

      Trump could literally blow up the entire world on a unilateral basis if he was pissed off enough about some trigger or other.

      This is what scares the hell out of me every time I wake up in the morning now.

      • Would you hand over a 12-gauge shotgun to an unstable egomaniac with the understanding that he could shoot you in the head any time he felt like it?

        • Most importantly of all: Would Hillary Clinton’s foundation offices and her private email server be able to withstand a fiery nuclear apocalypse potentially turning billions of lives into cinder and ash? This evidence will be sorely needed if the Trump supporters want to “lock her up”.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        It scars the hell out of me also … and I suspect many others. I suspect he could be easily pissed off … he used to having it all his own way, and doesn’t like being criticized.


      • Sylvia says:

        Guru! And just when I was settling down from the election and getting my balance….trying to ignore the orange-haired guy.
        I guess more reason to keep feeling and going for the ‘gusto’ in life.

        • Sylvia says:

          I’m choosing to believe this is all just a media hoax and Trump agreed to it to save face from losing, and at the same time it will serve to scare all the foreign countries. Yeah, that works for me. He will be Hillary’s puppet but have all the perks of living in the white house, looking like he’s making all the big decisions while the Clinton Clan is behind the scenes pulling the strings and avoiding all the flack from the right . I feel better now. Ha.

          • Sylvia: Let’s just say Trump is an authoritarian who can be vengeful and he can severely punish those he doesn’t like. Right after the election Trump tried to give top secret clearance for his children, which makes sense because they are the only people he truly trusts when so many people hate him. A Presidential nuclear fallout shelter or bunker for long-term apocalyptic survival likely has room for his family and to hell with everyone else. This scenario would be an elevated worry if Trump happened to be impeached for corruption, for instance.

            During the late stages of Watergate the last few weeks before President Nixon resigned, he became emotionally unstable and took to drinking heavily. Nixon’s Secretary of Defense, James Schlesinger, secretly made arrangements to have the nuclear codes patched to him or Henry Kissinger in case Nixon did something drastic with nuclear emergency orders. It’s anybody’s guess whether the outcome would be so prudent in case Trump gets in serious trouble or goes completely crazy (which seems a strong possibility).

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Guru: I almost completely agree with you about Trump. Not so sure about the impeaching of him, but your take on the family and being given all that power. Mmmmm

              My hope is that he’ll do something really cray before the electoral collage make their vote and they in turn will then decide to vote against him … and have to give it toHillary. It’s long shot but a sliver of hope’


            • Sylvia says:

              Not a very comforting scenario Guru. Was watching a you tube video where narcissists/psychopaths according to their brain scans have poor impulse control. Makes me want to eat a box of donuts.

  220. Otto Codingian says:

    Black cat is gone. Had to put him to sleep. Cried deep. Sucks.

  221. I’m so sorry Otto. So sad for you. Gretch

  222. Sylvia says:

    Take care Otto.

  223. Phil says:

    Very sorry about your cat.

  224. Margaret says:

    Oh dear Otto, I am so sorry for you and that dear kitty cat.
    but you have done all you could for it and I am sure he knew it and it helped him to keep feeling safe and not alone.
    still it is a very hard thing to have to do, and very very sad.
    I will be thinking of you a lot.
    I feel sad about this myself, brings